From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:28:08 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The June THEOSOPHY WORLD Is Out The June issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD is out. It's contents are: "The Living Web of Meaning," by Joy Mills "The Doctrines Are Real," by Eldon B. Tucker "Theosophical Students, Gather More Evidence," by Daniel Caldwell "The Tree of Life," by Gertrude W. Van Pelt "Time is Running Out," by Eldon B. Tucker "Blavatsky Net Update," by Reed Carson "How Can We Communicate With Our Loved Ones In Heaven?" by Cordelia Williamson "Our Platform: Remarks by the Chairman," by W. Emmett Small "On Reincarnation," by Dallas TenBroeck "William Quan Judge," by A. Trevor Barker THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:49:07 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: "Evernet" .:. I saw a very fascinating TV program on Internet and the emerging technology. Here are some of the bits of information that interested me. =20 Firstly, Internet technology, the speaker was reminding everyone that it is just 5 years old and all of us are aware of its impact in various fields. Just in a short time, even China now has 8 million users. It is still in its infancy and is expected to grow for the next 20 years. The underlying key factor is networking world that is being created. It is fundamentally moving the power from *institutions* - business, government, non-profit, spiritual, scientific =96 to the *individual*. Even here it is still in its infancy. What we can look for in the immediate future is *Evernet* =96 an interactive *Internet* which is on-line all the time. Today a typical users is online for one hour a day. (TV audience has shown a reducing trend, possibly due to use of Internet.) The Evernet is also going to be using broadband and wireless. Broadband will speed transmission which will make it possible for bi-directional audio and video and other innovations to be available to the common man/woman. A key characteristic of a network type of medium is that as people use it, they tend to use more and more of it. Just look at the telephone communication and how its use has exponentially grown over the years.=20 Looking at the last major leap in communication technology =96 TV, it is still a one-way tool, much like the other tools such as written material. On the other hand, network based tools =96 Internet, and Evernet =96 are two way tools =96 coupled with the transfer of power from institutions to individuals. So institutions which controlled communication and transfer of information for whatever reason =96 scientific, spiritual, political, national security etc. etc. is going to have a tough time to adjust to the changing global environment on which they will have no control. It will be a lot of fun watching all the institutional leaders trying to grapple with the new environment, especially when many of them having grown up in pre-computer era. What has all this have to deal with Theosophy and TS. Firstly, Internet/Evernet is going to make access to all the written materials on Ancient Wisdom readily accessible to anyone interested. And access will be uncontrolled by institutional vested interests and gate-keepers, who may be under the illusion that they are the custodians of Ancient Wisdom. Secondly, it is going to provide global immediate person-to-person access to help on a one on one basis again without any intermediary gate-keepers. The latter will provide unlimited opportunities for anyone willing to spend time and able to help in providing information. TS has not seen growth either in the membership or branches. It looks like, with the technology that was available in 1875, it was essential to start branches where those interested in Ancient Wisdom can meet and discuss etc. In today's and tomorrow's environment, it may be unnecessary or even not helpful. So the structures as we know it may not be appropriate for the fundamental function of helping to spread theosophy. So if we seen theosophical organizations put on life support, may be they have outlived their usefulness and we have to accept the facts and not cry over the natural events. We are all going to witness monumental changes in the world and I think it is incumbent upon each one of us to use our own creativity and ingenuity to find out ways and means of using the emerging technology to spread the gospel of theosophy. Network technology with its inherent nature of increased use as use increases, may be one day we will wake up to find some of the theosophical doctrines common knowledge around the world. Mkr (C) M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:47:42 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: "Evernet" I saw a very fascinating TV program on Internet and the emerging technology. Here are some of the bits of information that interested me. =20 Firstly, Internet technology, the speaker was reminding everyone that it is just 5 years old and all of us are aware of its impact in various fields. Just in a short time, even China now has 8 million users. It is still in its infancy and is expected to grow for the next 20 years. The underlying key factor is networking world that is being created. It is fundamentally moving the power from *institutions* - business, government, non-profit, spiritual, scientific =96 to the *individual*. Even here it is still in its infancy. What we can look for in the immediate future is *Evernet* =96 an interactive *Internet* which is on-line all the time. Today a typical users is online for one hour a day. (TV audience has shown a reducing trend, possibly due to use of Internet.) The Evernet is also going to be using broadband and wireless. Broadband will speed transmission which will make it possible for bi-directional audio and video and other innovations to be available to the common man/woman. A key characteristic of a network type of medium is that as people use it, they tend to use more and more of it. Just look at the telephone communication and how its use has exponentially grown over the years.=20 Looking at the last major leap in communication technology =96 TV, it is still a one-way tool, much like the other tools such as written material. On the other hand, network based tools =96 Internet, and Evernet =96 are two way tools =96 coupled with the transfer of power from institutions to individuals. So institutions which controlled communication and transfer of information for whatever reason =96 scientific, spiritual, political, national security etc. etc. is going to have a tough time to adjust to the changing global environment on which they will have no control. It will be a lot of fun watching all the institutional leaders trying to grapple with the new environment, especially when many of them having grown up in pre-computer era. What has all this have to deal with Theosophy and TS. Firstly, Internet/Evernet is going to make access to all the written materials on Ancient Wisdom readily accessible to anyone interested. And access will be uncontrolled by institutional vested interests and gate-keepers, who may be under the illusion that they are the custodians of Ancient Wisdom. Secondly, it is going to provide global immediate person-to-person access to help on a one on one basis again without any intermediary gate-keepers. The latter will provide unlimited opportunities for anyone willing to spend time and able to help in providing information. TS has not seen growth either in the membership or branches. It looks like, with the technology that was available in 1875, it was essential to start branches where those interested in Ancient Wisdom can meet and discuss etc. In today's and tomorrow's environment, it may be unnecessary or even not helpful. So the structures as we know it may not be appropriate for the fundamental function of helping to spread theosophy. So if we seen theosophical organizations put on life support, may be they have outlived their usefulness and we have to accept the facts and not cry over the natural events. We are all going to witness monumental changes in the world and I think it is incumbent upon each one of us to use our own creativity and ingenuity to find out ways and means of using the emerging technology to spread the gospel of theosophy. Network technology with its inherent nature of increased use as use increases, may be one day we will wake up to find some of the theosophical doctrines common knowledge around the world. Mkr (C) M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:50:07 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: anonymity I saw the following at a site selling software: You must have a valid Email address to order any of our software products (please make sure that you spell your address correctly). If we are unable to contact you by Email, then your order will be cancelled. Note: We do not accept any orders from "hotmail.com", "usa.net", or "yahoo.com". Too many people are using these free email accounts to send fraudulant orders to our company. So the misuse of the free e-mail addresses are going on!! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 06:01:59 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: For whom the bell tolls Kym ... > Perhaps the TS was meant to die - all things must that refuse or cannot > change and adapt. I personally do not see the death of the TS as a "bad" > event as any place/group that claims to hog the "Truth" cannot really > possess "it." Couldn't agree more. I think throughout history exoteric religions have always been the "form side" of spirituality, and the esoteric traditions have always been the "life side". The form side always focusses on status, on hierarchy, loves its followers to elevate things like humility into virtues, and almost always develop leaderships that believe they understand a larger sphere of truth than their followers do. Membership in the leaderships is granted to those that have shown they will behave, and agree to further the values and mindset of the leaders. Often some sort of status in the social world is considered important. But the virtues required for the form side are not only not the same, but sometimes even in direct opposition to those required to actually make the quest of the life side. The path itself requires people to virtually continually shatter forms - their own notions of what life is, what they are, must be considered to be completely open to destruction. Any ego, any belief, must be open to question, and ready at a moment's notice to be sacrificed. The life side is deeply personal, and can never be organizational - it is that quest to find one's own deepest demons, root them out, and defeat them; it is the effort of discovering all of the latent energies and talents still dormant in most, drawing them out into full expression, placing them at the service of of others. It is not for those that like comfort. The TS, through HPB, showed a brief glimpse of what that inner world of people pursuing the life side looked like - but the current TS has virtually nothing at all to do with that - its become as calcified as the Catholic church, and its leadership nothing but similar ... in its underlying patterns ... of any one of hundreds of other minor religions and cults currently circulating on earth. HPB - who was chosen by the Adepts - possesses none of what the *current* TS Leadersip priviledges as leadership qualifications. She was wild. Continually kinetic. Pretty much upset any applecart she came anywhere close to. Were she to incarnate again, she would not stand a *chance* of actually becoming a TS Board Member, let alone a President. In fact, the current ruling clique would likely find such a personality a powerful threat - and would make sure she was frozen out of any election. But the life side is always there to those with the guts to make the quest. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 09:15:53 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: To whom bell tolls -- Well said. Krishnamurti broke the formside which was getting crystalized. In the hysterical conditions that prevailed when the World Teacher was expected to make His debut in a predicted way with the apostles appointed by the TS leadership, he made his now famous Truth is a Pathless Land speech and made a complete break with all organizations. From then on, it looks more like terminal illness setting in at old age. The fundamental message that HPB tried to lay in front of the modern world cannot be organized because to have an understanding we need to go beyond the written word - word is not the real thing - and the real thing cannot be put in words or communicated verbally or in writing. As for HPB, if she were to magically come back today, she may be able to join as a formal member and will be shunned by everyone trained in the traditional ways. First and foremost would be her lack of formal scholarship -- she did not pass all the exams and get the titles to follow her name. Titles are very valued in TS. This is not new. When Besant was awarded Honorary Doctorate, from then on she used to be called Dr. Besant. Your msg should make all of us to lay aside our traditional modes of thinking and traditional values we all hold dear -- external appearances being very important in the modern world. ...mkr At 06:01 AM 6/1/1999 -0600, you wrote: Kym ... Perhaps the TS was meant to die - all things must that refuse or cannot change and adapt. I personally do not see the death of the TS as a "bad" event as any place/group that claims to hog the "Truth" cannot really possess "it." --- Couldn't agree more. I think throughout history exoteric religions have always been the "form side" of spirituality, and the esoteric traditions have always been the "life side". The form side always focusses on status, on hierarchy, loves its followers to elevate things like humility into virtues, and almost always develop leaderships that believe they understand a larger sphere of truth than their followers do. Membership in the leaderships is granted to those that have shown they will behave, and agree to further the values and mindset of the leaders. Often some sort of status in the social world is considered important. But the virtues required for the form side are not only not the same, but sometimes even in direct opposition to those required to actually make the quest of the life side. The path itself requires people to virtually continually shatter forms - their own notions of what life is, what they are, must be considered to be completely open to destruction. Any ego, any belief, must be open to question, and ready at a moment's notice to be sacrificed. The life side is deeply personal, and can never be organizational - it is that quest to find one's own deepest demons, root them out, and defeat them; it is the effort of discovering all of the latent energies and talents still dormant in most, drawing them out into full expression, placing them at the service of of others. It is not for those that like comfort. The TS, through HPB, showed a brief glimpse of what that inner world of people pursuing the life side looked like - but the current TS has virtually nothing at all to do with that - its become as calcified as the Catholic church, and its leadership nothing but similar ... in its underlying patterns ... of any one of hundreds of other minor religions and cults currently circulating on earth. HPB - who was chosen by the Adepts - possesses none of what the *current* TS Leadersip priviledges as leadership qualifications. She was wild. Continually kinetic. Pretty much upset any applecart she came anywhere close to. Were she to incarnate again, she would not stand a *chance* of actually becoming a TS Board Member, let alone a President. In fact, the current ruling clique would likely find such a personality a powerful threat - and would make sure she was frozen out of any election. But the life side is always there to those with the guts to make the quest. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 09:17:32 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Evernet Dear Dallas: Initially it was research and education which drove Internet. Now it is commerce that is the driving force. Of course there are attempts to muzzle the new medium. But the medium is expected to become so widespread that it would be politically difficult to use tax and other means to prevent some from being able to use it. However I am confident that Powers be know all about these too well and the welfare of Humanity would be served in the long run. I was thinking about the implications of Evernet. Already video images can be transmitted live and long distance calls are made on the Internet. Soon I will be able to see you on my screen and communicate via voice and video. A side effect would be lack of privacy. You cannot hide behind an assumed name and try to communicate. When I am communicating, I can ask you to turn on your video camera so that I can see you as I type and so I know whom I am talking to and put a face on the name. You may not need to visit your doctor. He may be able to check you remotely and even monitor your vital signs round the clock if need be. As the population ages, and mobility is reduced as one grows older, much can be accomplished without physical travel. Possibilities are unlimited. ...doss "W. Dallas TenBroeck" wrote on theos-talk: June 1st Dear Doss: I think you are quite right in this evaluation. Perhaps this will become one of the best mediums for the diffusion of great ideas -- and one that cannot be strangled by those who may have "special interests." I however note that there appears to be some government and business interests that desire to place fresh taxes or fees on Internet usage. I think this matter ought to be made clear to those who use this, so that its freedom will not become financially or otherwise restricted. Apparently the increasing usage at very low cost of this franchise is now attracting the hungry glance of those who might derive special profits from its existence. I believe that any evidence of such encroachment ought to be advertised so that the already formidable power of numbers may be used wisely to counterbalance such restrictive proposals. Both government and private interests ought to be carefully and persistently monitored. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:58:45 +0200 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: For whom the bell tolls Well said! And what about Judge, Tingley or de Purucker? Would they stand today the licmus-test? In our hypocrasy theosophical world? Sureley NOT. They would be persecuted. And what is the reason for? People wish no teacher, they won't be teached, they are proud and believe there is no more knowledge in the universe than in their brain, they like and need hypocrasy - and they become what they want. 'Which of the two ones shall I give free: Jesus the Christus or Jesus the Barrabas?' asked Pontius Pilatus - and the people shouted: 'Barrabas, give us the Barrabas'. Every one gets what he/she likes - that's the just law of karma, it can not be otherwise. BTW, as you can read in BCW, HPB was kicked off from Adyar in 1885 and their Masters with her. Not that I will say that all the other TS's are better - no way - there's the same poppycock. Frank >currently circulating on earth. HPB - who was chosen by the Adepts - > possesses none of what the *current* TS Leadersip priviledges as leadership > qualifications. She was wild. Continually kinetic. Pretty much upset any > applecart she came anywhere close to. Were she to incarnate again, she would > not stand a *chance* of actually becoming a TS Board Member, let alone a > President. In fact, the current ruling clique would likely find such a > personality a powerful threat - and would make sure she was frozen out of > any election. > > But the life side is always there to those with the guts to make the > quest. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:58:47 +0200 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: To whom bell tolls HPB were even for the E.S. not fit, as she smoked - and smoking is forbidden in the Adyar E.S... I doubt that titles have had any importance to Annie Besant, as she is the next Dhyani Chohan (Manu), and Manus are self-evidently not bound to such low things:-) Frank > As for HPB, if she were to magically come back today, she may be able to > join as a formal member and will be shunned by everyone trained in the > traditional ways. First and foremost would be her lack of formal > scholarship -- she did not pass all the exams and get the titles to follow > her name. Titles are very valued in TS. This is not new. When Besant was > awarded Honorary Doctorate, from then on she used to be called Dr. Besant. > > Your msg should make all of us to lay aside our traditional modes of > thinking and traditional values we all hold dear -- external appearances > being very important in the modern world. > > ...mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:34:14 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Is this Theosophy? The newly republished book - Is This Theosophy? by Ernest Wood reached me today. Kessinger publications has done a wonderful job of publishing it. They should be congratulated in bringing this rare book after 63 years after it was originally published. Any student of history of theosophical society should read it and I am sure will find it very interesting. In the very end of the book Wood writes: The new President, Mr. Arundale -- he now dropped the use of his title of Bishop outside the church activities, as he ahd announced his intention to do so -- or Dr. Arundale, if we are to recognize the honorary degree conferred upon him by the short-lived National University -- wrote me that his intentions were to pursue a thoroughly liberal policy. I could not congratulate him on his election, considering the way in which it had been conducted, but I wrote wishing him success in the liberal intentions expressed in his letter to me. But since I saw no landing-place for the weary unwelcome foot of the white dove of truth in the new interpretation of the Society's principle of tolerance: "Thou shall not find fault with a brother's views or activities." What a convenience that sort of tolerance would be to lawbreakers in general, if only it could be adopted in teh outside world!' I learned to detest theosophical politics, with their hiding everything that does not redound to the credit of those in power, and their perpetual circles of mutual admiration, but I was left with a high regard for the theosophists scattered over the world as a lovable-- albeit most innocent and childlike -- body of people. It is not here, nor is it there, that pure life or truth shall be found. There are no secret passages to truth. No hocus-pocus of incantations, of word or of the subtler word that is thought, can light or fan the central fire. No establishment can establish it; no communications communicate. end---- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 12:27:41 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The June THEOSOPHY WORLD Is Out The June issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD is out. It's contents are: "The Living Web of Meaning," by Joy Mills "The Doctrines Are Real," by Eldon B. Tucker "Theosophical Students, Gather More Evidence," by Daniel Caldwell "The Tree of Life," by Gertrude W. Van Pelt "Time is Running Out," by Eldon B. Tucker "Blavatsky Net Update," by Reed Carson "How Can We Communicate With Our Loved Ones In Heaven?" by Cordelia Williamson "Our Platform: Remarks by the Chairman," by W. Emmett Small "On Reincarnation," by Dallas TenBroeck "William Quan Judge," by A. Trevor Barker THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:42:12 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet/Evernet One more indication of the power shift from traditional/organizational to grass roots level can be seen in the decision of Merrill Lynch to get on the online trading bandwagon. When Schwab introduced online trading, the idea was dismissed by ML who used the traditional human brokers to put thru trades. This increased the cost to the customers. Now the online trading bypasses the brokers. More changes in the way we do business is on its way. >From the horse/ox buggy to supersonic transportation, we have come a long way. The transportation revolution has shrunk the world. Next comes the communication world with phones, cell phones, pagers and now Internet/Evernet integrated to all of them and more. The communication revolution is still on its march like the traditional Juggernaut crushing all who stand in its way. BTW, I just found out that some companies are selling long distance at 3 cents a minute with a fixed 35 cent charge per call or 5 cents a minute with a fixed 25 cent per call. With all the communication changes taking place, the pencil and paper and communication is bound to go the way rail roads gave way to road and air transportation. Stay tuned for more. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:04:00 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Future of Publishing? Borders just announced that they are going to offer on-demand printing of books. This will in due course put an end to publishing as we know it. What next? Printing books at home on your computer? Instant availability of classics on Internet coupled with the writers bypassing the publishing houses -- anyone can publish on Internet at almost very little cost -- the power is going to shift from the publishing houses to individuals. It would be interesting to see how many profitable publishing houses survive the current revolution in communication. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:53:12 EDT From: Hazarapet@aol.com Subject: Re: Future of Publishing? In a message dated 6/2/99 1:06:53 PM Central Daylight Time, ramadoss@eden.com writes: > > Borders just announced that they are going to offer on-demand printing of > books. This will in due course put an end to publishing as we know it. What > next? Printing books at home on your computer? Instant availability of > classics on Internet coupled with the writers bypassing the publishing > houses -- anyone can publish on Internet at almost very little cost -- the > power is going to shift from the publishing houses to individuals. It would > be interesting to see how many profitable publishing houses survive the > current revolution in communication. > > mkr Not quite, the new technology, such as FolioViews, allows electronic databases that are fully cross-indexed, where one can make several of one's own cross-indexes with bookmark-hyperlinks, where one can read variants in original sources, etc.etc. etc. But the creation of a FolioView database takes immense work. Publishing will probably survive the new technology in its current economic form. Its just some publishers will be caught unawares. Grigor From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:28:20 -0500 From: "JRC" Subject: Kosovo This is a press release from the Internet Society (a large, international organization of Internet Professionals). This is a major project drawing on internet programmers and companies from around the world to cooperate in a single humanitarian effort. It is entirely driven by donations of time, skills, hardware and software, and money. Anyone interested or able to help in this project will find contact information at the bottom of the post ... or feel free to visit the website at . There is a special section on that site dealing with needs and offers. --JRC ************************************************ INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE PONIECKI FOUNDATION DEVELOP KOSOVONET.ORG SITE TO HELP REUNITE FAMILIES RESTON, VA May 28, 1999 -- The Internet Society and The Wladyslaw Poniecki Foundation, of El Cerrito, California, announced today the formation of KosovoNet.org to help reunite families who have been separated during their migration from worn-torn Yugoslavia. The site allows use of the Internet as the vehicle for registration consolidation. KosovoNet.org also hosts an intra-camp communications center with electronic bulletin board posting capability and person-to-person, web-mail communications for Kosovar refugees. More than 1,000,000 ethnic Albanians have fled the hostilities in Yugoslavia, creating the largest forced migration of people in Europe since World War II. The displaced refugees have been relocated not merely within the former Yugoslav territory, but to far more distant countries. Refugees are now in Greece, Turkey, Israel, Germany, neighboring countries such as Macedonia and Albania, and in the United States. While humanitarian assistance continues, matching displaced families can begin across international boundaries using the KosovoNet.org web site. KosovoNet.org hosts a unified, searchable database developed for use by all those who will be called upon to assist the Kosovar refugees worldwide, including humanitarian relief agencies, public institutions and national embassies. The KosovoNet.org Project hopes to facilitate and extend the work of registration volunteers in the field by collating data into a single repository with an easy-to-use interface that can be accessed and used more conveniently by many relief organizations. The need for this unified database is all the more acute since the Kosovo tragedy involves the systematic erasure of identity. Adversaries have destroyed records, deeds, school records, birth and death records, and all traces of lineage and family ties. "This is the first major worldwide crisis to which the Internet community has responded," said Don Heath, president of the Internet Society. "We stand ready to help the real heroes in the field with global and instant communications capabilities. With KosovoNet.org, we are providing a fast, easy and secure means for relief agencies to combine data and expand efforts to reunite Kosovar families. We also hope to bring focus to other efforts being launched among our Internet community." The Internet database will permit storage of names as text, as well as photographs, full motion video and audio files. The Internet Society, through its volunteer members and offices in the United States and Europe, has been involved with international relief agencies. The KosovoNet Project invites relief agencies to share data so that a complete electronic registrar may be built. Refugees will also have access to the database through supporting organizations, as well as access to other accommodations on the site. At the request of USAID, a web mail service has been established on KosovoNet.org for refugees based at Fort Dix, New Jersey, to begin re-establishing connections with family worldwide. The system can be used by refugees anywhere in the world with access to the KosovoNet.org site. While access to the outside world via Internet email is being established, a bulletin board exists as a vehicle for some external, worldwide communications to transpire. For security reasons, postings and email will be monitored and archived so any problems can be addressed constructively. The site will be made available in English and Albanian. Bringing Together the Internet Industry and Humanitarian Communities The Internet Society, which extends the use of the Internet to all sectors, and The Poniecki Foundation, which has been active in humanitarian efforts since 1990, are coordinating the contributions and volunteer efforts of corporate and private donors to apply Internet technologies to the purpose of reuniting families. "This is exactly the type of life-saving and family-preserving application for which the Internet should be used," said Heath. "Our member companies and individual Internet users feel privileged to be involved in this worthwhile endeavor to relieve the human suffering." Internet companies have come together to develop KosovoNet.org. Sun Microsystems has donated a Sun Enterprise Server to host the multimedia applications and Web connections required. Oracle Software is offering database methods including data warehousing, data mining tools and object-oriented retrieval systems. Monetary contributions will also be collected using e-commerce software. Companies such as Virtuosity, a high-tech firm that offers data support for telecomm and its software, Wildfire, which provide voice routing for telephone calls, have jumped on-board to again use technology to solve the humanitarian problem. Among the first local groups to sign on for call center support once the Internet site gains momentum is the Department of Education of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of San Francisco, California. Teachers and students will work together at the Bay Area Catholic Schools to staff a telephone hotline that includes voice recognition technology. "The outpouring of support for the KosovoNet.org initiative has been overwhelming," said Monica Dodds Grycz, president of The Poniecki Foundation. "We hope this cooperative effort will maximize the work of volunteers in the field, whether they work under the auspices of US humanitarian agencies, the United Nations, or private international relief organizations." The Internet Society The Internet Society is a non-profit organization dedicated to ensuring the open evolution, development and use of the Internet for the benefit of all peoples of the world. It is the acknowledged champion and focal point for Internet self-governance, and it is the only organization whose members have been involved in all aspects of the Internet since its inception. The Internet Society has active members in 150 countries, and assumes a leadership role in developing and disseminating Internet policy on technical and societal issues, providing education and training for Internet professionals and generally representing the best interests of the Internet. The Poniecki Foundation The Wladyslaw Poniecki Foundation, Inc. is active in Central and Eastern European countries undergoing the difficult transition from command-driven to more participatory free-market economies. Its mission is to apply technological advances and educate communities on organizing themselves to accomplish social good. As part of a US-AID cooperative agreement and as a subcontractor to the World Wildlife Fund (US), the Foundation translated workbooks on the development and use of electronic networks, and established grassroots "International Organization of Information Specialists" chapters in several countries. It has also been engaged in educational activities in New Delhi, Bogota, Colombia. Activities have included helping to establish an International post-graduate educational center for Information Managers in Central and Eastern Europe at Nicholas Copernicus University in Torun, Poland. The Foundation has published scholarly and educational books in the disciplines of business, education, management, entrepreneurship, medicine, and the environment. ### For additional information contact: Czeslaw "Chet" Jan Grycz Grycz@KosovoNet.org KosovoNet.org Project c/o the Poniecki Foundation El Cerrito, California 415/732-6172 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 12:49:14 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: John Cooper's Response to "Elder Brother" Late John Cooper, I understand, wrote a response after the book Elder Brother by Gregory Tillett was published. Does anyone know where his response was published and if anyone has a copy, can it be e-mailed to me? Thanks M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 14:34:51 GMT From: David Green Subject: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/index.html This is my new web page which gives full access to my other web pages on Robert Crosbie, William Judge & Katherine Tingley. This web page will list all *future updates* on my continuing study of the subject. I've also added links to other skeptical, critical material on Helena Blavatsky, Charles Leadbeater & Alice Bailey. If you know of other critiques of these theosophists & their claims, email the link address and I'll add to my index page. Much more to come. Including never before published material. Comments are welcomed & solicited. Also anyone in possession of other related material who is willing to have it published on my web site, contact me with details. David Green http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/index.html _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 11:03:21 -0500 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy Well ... > I've also added links to other skeptical, critical material on Helena > Blavatsky, Charles Leadbeater & Alice Bailey. If you know of other > critiques of these theosophists & their claims, email the link address > and I'll add to my index page. > > Comments are welcomed & solicited. Also anyone in possession of other > related material who is willing to have it published on my web site, > contact me with details. That's very interesting. Comment: Despite repeated queries, you have yet to reveal who you are, what your motive is for seeking such "skeptical, critical material" (while apparently not seeking material that would refute it ... as an *objective* researcher would). We've had, on these lists over the years, several (for instance) Christian fundamentalists who joined, not to examine things, learn, or contribute, but rather solely to attempt to trash Theosophy, and convert its members. You increasingly seem - with your absolute refusal to identify yourself or your reasons, and now your overt request for a clearly one-sided set of information - to be not a Theosophist seeking objective information, not a member attempting to be critical with the intent of improving either the Societies or the general knowledge, but rather an outsider of some sort with seriously ulterior and purely negative motives, attempting to use the Theosophy discussion list itself to hurt Theosophy. I encourage anyone that feels like it to visit this fellow's site. Predictably, his writing is poor - the strange and stilted prose of the pseudo-intellectual - and the site is amateurish. Perhaps he *is*, however, inadvertantly serving a purpose, in that its good to be reminded that there are fanatics in the US, and other countries, that still believe Theosophy is "evil" (in fact in some fundamentalist circles everything HPB did is called lies, and she is named as the person most responsible for launching that ultimate tool of Satan, the "New Age Movement" ...). -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 11:43:46 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy Well, John, you may be right on target. Of late when you find e-mail addresses with domains such as hotmail, yahoo, etc -- which provide free e-mail addresses, people often use them to conceal their real identity. I have come across some e-commerce sites and other vendors do not deal with e-mail addresses with these domains due specifically to this problem. mkr At 11:03 AM 6/7/1999 -0500, you wrote: Well ... [ I've also added links to other skeptical, critical material on Helena Blavatsky, Charles Leadbeater & Alice Bailey. If you know of other critiques of these theosophists & their claims, email the link address and I'll add to my index page. Comments are welcomed & solicited. Also anyone in possession of other related material who is willing to have it published on my web site, contact me with details.] That's very interesting. Comment: Despite repeated queries, you have yet to reveal who you are, what your motive is for seeking such "skeptical, critical material" (while apparently not seeking material that would refute it ... as an *objective* researcher would). We've had, on these lists over the years, several (for instance) Christian fundamentalists who joined, not to examine things, learn, or contribute, but rather solely to attempt to trash Theosophy, and convert its members. You increasingly seem - with your absolute refusal to identify yourself or your reasons, and now your overt request for a clearly one-sided set of information - to be not a Theosophist seeking objective information, not a member attempting to be critical with the intent of improving either the Societies or the general knowledge, but rather an outsider of some sort with seriously ulterior and purely negative motives, attempting to use the Theosophy discussion list itself to hurt Theosophy. I encourage anyone that feels like it to visit this fellow's site. Predictably, his writing is poor - the strange and stilted prose of the pseudo-intellectual - and the site is amateurish. Perhaps he *is*, however, inadvertantly serving a purpose, in that its good to be reminded that there are fanatics in the US, and other countries, that still believe Theosophy is "evil" (in fact in some fundamentalist circles everything HPB did is called lies, and she is named as the person most responsible for launching that ultimate tool of Satan, the "New Age Movement" ...). -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:01:06 -0500 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy > Well, John, you may be right on target. > > Of late when you find e-mail addresses with domains such as hotmail, yahoo, > etc -- which provide free e-mail addresses, people often use them to > conceal their real identity. I have come across some e-commerce sites and > other vendors do not deal with e-mail addresses with these domains due > specifically to this problem. Yep - and not only is his email address one of the free ones used by many to conceal identity, but the website itself is on one of those servers that gives you a website for free (the "members.tripod.com"). While at first glance he seemed worth serious attention, he now seems rather like a joke - someone to have a bit of fun with. I've already got three or four people that intend to put together, for a laugh, some "critical articles" - full of a mixture of truth and falsehoods, but written in the tone of the profoundly learned (which he seems to mistake for actual intelligence). They will, of course, also use assumed names. So then - he gets to either check every single fact in every single article he receives ... or he risks putting things on his site that just make his "continuing study of the subject" look even more ridiculous than it already does. I myself may even submit a "Dictionary of DavidGreenese" (har har har har har), and publish it in HTML on a members.tripod.com site of my own! At any rate, he should provide everyone with at least a little early summer fun. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 13:03:30 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy That would be wonderful. --MKR At 12:01 PM 6/7/1999 -0500, you wrote: [Well, John, you may be right on target. Of late when you find e-mail addresses with domains such as hotmail, yahoo, etc -- which provide free e-mail addresses, people often use them to conceal their real identity. I have come across some e-commerce sites and other vendors do not deal with e-mail addresses with these domains due specifically to this problem.--Mkr] leftYep - and not only is his email address one of the free ones used by many to conceal identity, but the website itself is on one of those servers that gives you a website for free (the "members.tripod.com"). While at first glance he seemed worth serious attention, he now seems rather like a joke - someone to have a bit of fun with. I've already got three or four people that intend to put together, for a laugh, some "critical articles" - full of a mixture of truth and falsehoods, but written in the tone of the profoundly learned (which he seems to mistake for actual intelligence). They will, of course, also use assumed names. So then - he gets to either check every single fact in every single article he receives ... or he risks putting things on his site that just make his "continuing study of the subject" look even more ridiculous than it already does. I myself may even submit a "Dictionary of DavidGreenese" (har har har har har), and publish it in HTML on a members.tripod.com site of my own! At any rate, he should provide everyone with at least a little early summer fun. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:21:28 +0200 (Romance Daylight Time) From: hesse600 Subject: Re: To whom bell tolls > As for HPB, if she were to magically come back today, she may be able to > join as a formal member and will be shunned by everyone trained in the > traditional ways. First and foremost would be her lack of formal > scholarship -- she did not pass all the exams and get the titles to follow > her name. Titles are very valued in TS. This is not new. When Besant was > awarded Honorary Doctorate, from then on she used to be called Dr. Besant. I don't know. I think she would be very welcome as a lecturer. She was supposed to be quite good at that and though I do not know how it is elsewhere, but here in Holland the people lecturing are not usually formal scholars. In fact their names are not prefaced with their titles. This may be due to the character of my country more than the character of the TS, but it is only natural that the sins of the country should be (partly) repeated in the national sections. How could it be otherwise. Katinka ---------------------- NHL Leeuwarden hesse600@tem.nhl.nl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 09:11:09 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Accommodation Domains Accommodation Domains such as Hotmail, Yahoo etc. which provide free webbased e-mail addresses do serve a purpose -- such as avoid changing e-mail addresses when one changes the service provider. The downside is their use by those who want to conceal their identities. Some of the hackers use such addresses! >From time to time, I get e-mails from these domains from people whom I do not know. They request information and assistance etc. As a matter of personal policy I do not to respond to msgs from strangers whose real identity cannot be verified. While I am always willing to help others, now you know why sometimes I will not respond. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 14:14:05 GMT From: David Green Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy MKR & JRC--- It's quite amazing how you two waste so many words about me & my site without addressing the content on the site. "Put together, for a laugh, some "critical articles" - full of a mixture of truth and falsehoods, but written in the tone of the profoundly learned." JRC---is this what theosophists do for pastime & fun? You crack me up. If you two are concerned about negative, onesided presentation on my site, write up other side & publish it on Tripod. I'm waiting. Last time I checked, 100,000s if not millions of people use Hotmail. It's free & a good deal. Also Tripod is free. What's wrong with taking advantage of good deal? Plus it's convenient. When I travel from CA back to MI and elsewhere I can use both Hotmail & Tripod at an Internet cafe or library. Convenient access & free. If you two want to pay for these things, fine---go ahead. MKR, aren't you always pushing the internet & free access? Or is this just talk? As I've explained far too many times---I'm working on dissertation about WQ Judge with section on ULT. Insult me all you want you will not deter me from my study. & JRC----exactly who in the hell are you? JRC. Yea, that tells me alot. Thanks MKR & JRC for your comments. This is as good as Comedy Channel. DG _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:23:10 -0500 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy > It's quite amazing how you two waste so many words > about me & my site without addressing the content > on the site. Not as amazing as the enormous number of words you are wasting in your little "smear early Theosophists" campaign. Most of the content on your site is barely worth addressing. Every one-sided fanatic wants their work to be taken seriously. None of your content merits it. > "Put together, for a laugh, some "critical articles" - full of > a mixture of truth and falsehoods, but written in the tone of the profoundly > learned." > JRC---is this what theosophists do for pastime & fun? > You crack me up. "Theosophists" - despite what your opinion may be - actually don't act as a herd in a single fashion. But since the TS's inception it has attracted ridiculous attacks from people who use it for their own ends. As you are. Trying to fight against this is just tiresome, and worthless, as the critics are certainly not open to any ideas other than their own. But they *are* fun to play with. You apparently consider the TS and its founders to be worthy of trashing ... on a TS list. (Tell me, is this what graduate students do for fun? Make "Dictionaries of ULTese"? No wonder modern education is getting such a bad rap). You are certainly free to. *I* consider your "research" to be a joke, and will have as much fun with it as I want. Hope that continues to crack you up. > If you two are concerned about negative, onesided > presentation on my site, write up other side & > publish it on Tripod. I'm waiting. "The other side"? Of what? Theosophy is simply a single, small, current interation of esoteric traditions that have been around for millenia. They need no defense, certainly not against the likes of you. Your intense focus on the minutiae of the personal lives and correspondence of the founders makes it clear you've utterly missed the point of Theosophy, and probably couldn't understand in anyway. What will you do when you're done, go after Plato? You could write one of your scathing, well researched critiques of the Buddha - I hear there are some doubts about *his* personal life too. But don't be too surprised if the world's billion Buddhists don't exactly stand in awe of your intellect, and feel they need to make a case for "the other side". Theosophy is still around today, not because any one *person* wrote this or that private memo, but because the founders introduced a set of *ideas*, ideas that every one of them considered far larger and more important than their own small personalities (something I fear you'd have a very difficult time understanding), and these ideas were considered by at least a small group of people to be quite compelling, interesting, and worthy of their attention. > As I've explained far too many times---I'm working on > dissertation about WQ Judge with section on ULT. The reason for suspicions are several. Many of us on this list have completed dissertations, and a few now grade them. But if I ever started even a freshman level paper, let alone a major piece of graduate research, by going onto a field's online discussion list, specifically and explicitly seeking *only* one side of a story, and while I was at it continually attempting to convince the members of the list that the people they had studied for years were highly questionable characters - well, unless you are a student at Oral Roberts University whose professor has told them to trash Theosophy, this certainly doesn't even remotely resemble university level research methodology. And the word "dissertation" is quite vauge - perhaps you don't mean a university dissertation, but only want to imply that. You could be simply writing your own "dissertation" - in which case the unanswered questions still hold - what is your motive? A graduate school dissertation certainly doesn't require a website to be launched with random articles and your own half-completed "research". You can "explain it" as many times as you want - if what you are *doing* is not at all explained by what you claim your motives are, then people will rightly suspect you of ulterior motives. > Insult me all you want you will not deter me from > my study. Who wants to deter you from your study? Go for it bucko. I might say the same thing: Insult the early Theosophists all you want, it won't deter anyone on this list from *their* studies. Keep posting all you want to - in fact I've even encouraged people on the list to go look at your site. But don't be all too surprised if members of an online Theosophical discussion list don't immediately say "Oh good, David Green has finally exposed the truth, we can all just stop studying Theosophy and get on with our lives", but rather think, quietly to themselves, "sigh, yet another in a century long series of idiots deciding to use criticisms of Theosophy to further their own petty ends". No one here has tried to "deter" you from anything. If you want to make a public fool of yourself, go right ahead. But perhaps you'd be happier speaking on a Christian fundamentalist list instead - you'd be worshipped as a hero instead of being considered an idiot. You are, of course, quite free to keep posting here all you want. But you can also expect a few people here to continue to examine *your* personality and motives with as much vigor as *you* put into looking at those of the TS Founders. > & JRC----exactly who in the hell are you? JRC. Yea, > that tells me alot. Everyone that's been on this list for more than a few months knows me, my affiliations, and my motives quite well. You've never asked. Since you did, my name is John Crocker. I graduated from the University of Montana. I've been involved in Theosophy, off and on, for 15 years. I've periodically been a member of the Wheaton Theosophical Society, but am not currently. I've never been involved with the ULT, but have friends that are. I could care less about the personal lives of the founders, but find the philosophical ideas in some of their writings to be stimulating, and as worthy of consideration as any other school of philosophy is. I've been, in the past, at times very critical of official Theosophical organizations, but always with the motive of addressing what I considered problems, towards the end of improving them, and aiding in the expansion and distribution of Theosophical thought. I am specifically critical of your posts because your motives are highly questionable and negative, you seem to have no interest in Theosophical *ideas*, but merely wish to publically denigrate the founders, and you actually have the guts to use a discussion list, run by and for Theosophists, to do so. That is who and what I am, and why I am writing these posts. If any part of it isn't clear, or you believe it doesn't explain my motives, I'll be happy to supply further information. Now, what about you? Are you, or have you ever been a member of a Theosophical organization? For whom are you writing this "dissertation"? What, if any, university? Why are you also engaging in websites and posts that clearly are not part of a university graduate research program? Why are you, in this "dissertation" so clearly only seeking evidence supporting one side? Explain yourself and your motives. And just saying "I'm writing a dissertation" doesn't explain anything. > Thanks MKR & JRC for your comments. This is as good > as Comedy Channel. And thank *you* for being the current comedian onstage. Many of your lot have come and gone on this list over the years. But we haven't had one for several months now. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 18:39:25 GMT From: David Green Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy Mr JRC---- >The reason for suspicions are several. Many of us on this list have >completed dissertations, and a few now grade them. But if I ever started >even a freshman level paper, let alone a major piece of graduate research, >by going onto a field's online discussion list, specifically and explicitly >seeking *only* one side of a story, and while I was at it continually >attempting to convince the members of the list that the people they had >studied for years were highly questionable characters - I'm interested in all sides of story concerning Robert Crosbie. OBTW, it's ULT & its associates who've worked quite hard to keep the complete, real story of Crosbie's life---well hidden. Highly questionable characters? In many respects Mrs Blavatsky *appears* as highly questionable character. Read Godwin's Theosophical Enlightenment, Johnson's books, Carlson's No Religion Higher than Truth, Deveney's Paschal Randolph etc etc. Blavatsky comes off as unsavory character. Maybe she's not. Would like to know more of other side. But it's United Lodge of Theosophists in their histories which relentlessly paint Besant, Olcott, Chakravarti, Tingley, Hargrove, de Purucker as highly questionable characters. In all I've written about Mr Crosbie I've never said anything 1/10 as strong as what these ULTites have written about these famous theosophists. & it appears Mr Dallas TenBroeck takes every occasion he can to question Mrs Tingley's character. What are Dallas T.'s motives? & the ULT's motives for their character defamation of theosophists? Question my motives all you want but why this selective treatment? Next time Mr TenBroeck questions Mrs Tingley's character on theos-l, why don't you pen 10,000 word essay on him, his motives, etc etc etc? Mr JRC--- >A graduate school >dissertation certainly doesn't require a website to be launched with random >articles and your own half-completed "research". No, website isn't required but------you act like it's terrible sin that I have such a site. Maybe you find nothing of interest at my site. Okay. But others have written thanking me for info they knew nothing about before they read it on my website. >Insult the early Theosophists all you want, it won't deter >anyone on this list from *their* studies. Keep posting all you want to - in >fact I've even encouraged people on the list to go look at your site. Where have I insulted early Theosophists? Yes, yes, I've asked some questions concerning Mr Crosbie, his claims, etc. Is that also sin? Mr JRC---- >You are, of >course, quite free to keep posting here all you want. Thanks for your permission. I'm quite glad you're allowing me to do this. BTW, do you own this list? Mr JRC---- >I could care >less about the personal lives of the founders, but find the philosophical >ideas in some of their writings to be stimulating, and as worthy of >consideration as any other school of philosophy is. I've been, in the past, >at times very critical of official Theosophical organizations, but always >with the motive of addressing what I considered problems, towards the end >of >improving them, and aiding in the expansion and distribution of >Theosophical >thought. I am specifically critical of your posts because your motives are >highly questionable and negative, you seem to have no interest in >Theosophical *ideas*, but merely wish to publically denigrate the founders, >and you actually have the guts to use a discussion list, run by and for >Theosophists, to do so. Oh----your motives are always good & fine while mine are highly questionable and negative? You're such a paragon of virtues, Mr JRC. How do you know if I'm interested or not in theosophical *ideas*? FYI, I'm much interested in theos ideas. But my study is on Judge, his bio, history, controversy surrounding him, ULT mythology on Judge, etc etc. Discussion of theosophical ideas won't help much in this historical study--analysis. Maybe I'm mistaken but I'm sure you'll let me know. Limit to 10,000 words or less, Mr JRC. Oh dear me, I have the guts to intrude on this discussion list, "run by and for theosophists." Another sin of mine? Do you know whether I'm a theosophist or not? How do you determine that? Are you the Mahatma to determine whether I'm a true theosophist or not? OBTW, where does it say that this list is "run by and for theosophists"----only? Non-theosophists go away? JRC, you're very broadminded & tolerant in your practice of universal human-hood. I'm going back to Comedy Channel. DG _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:31:07 -0500 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy > I'm interested in all sides of story concerning Robert Crosbie. OBTW, it's > ULT & its associates who've worked quite hard to keep the complete, real > story of Crosbie's life---well hidden. No you aren't - in fact you have quite explicitly *asked* for *critical* material. You haven't asked for any evidence other than that backing up a very specific and already determined point of view. Apparently this is your version of how to get the "real, complete story" - seeking only evidence that backs up your own opinion. and what you arrive at will only be that - your "complete, real" opinion. > ...it appears Mr Dallas TenBroeck takes every occasion > he can to question Mrs Tingley's character. What are Dallas T.'s motives? > & the ULT's motives for their character defamation of theosophists? > Question my motives all you want but why this selective treatment? Next > time Mr TenBroeck questions Mrs Tingley's character on theos-l, why don't > you pen 10,000 word essay on him, his motives, etc etc etc? Dallas posts long and detailed posts, but hardly takes "every occaision" - in fact, he rarely mentions people at all. Close to 95% of what he writes is quotes and his own view of Theosophical philosophy. Which is why 95% of the people that respond to his posts talk about ideas. Close to 95% of what *you* write are critiques of the motives and character of individuals. Which is why when people respond to *you* most of the time the topic is about *your* motives and character. This actually surprises you? You actually think it "selective"? You are receiving back precisely the attitudes you are expressing. > >A graduate school > >dissertation certainly doesn't require a website to be launched with random > >articles and your own half-completed "research". > > No, website isn't required but------you act like it's terrible sin that I > have such a site. Maybe you find nothing of interest at my site. Okay. > But others have written thanking me for info they knew nothing about before > they read it on my website. I'm sure all 5 or 6 of them are quite pleased. Never said it was a "sin" to have a website. I brought it up because *you* attempted to explain your whole continuing campaign as being research for a "dissertation". I was pointing out that this does *not* explain a great deal of your activities - including a website. I'm seeking the "real and complete truth" behind what you are doing. > >You are, of > >course, quite free to keep posting here all you want. > > Thanks for your permission. I'm quite glad you're allowing me to do this. > BTW, do you own this list? Certainly not. Nor do you. My statement was, of course, in response to your dramatic "your insults won't deter me from my studies". I replied that not only was no one trying to "deter" you from your "studies", but that you were welcome to keep doing your "studying" on a TS list. You seem quite incensed that when you freely post the volumes you've been posting, that people would actually *question* your motives and character in exactly the same way you question those of the founders. Wanted to remind you that while you are quite free to continue doing so, others are *also* quite free to respond to *you* anyway they want. Even if you don't like it. > >I am specifically critical of your posts because your motives are > >highly questionable and negative, you seem to have no interest in > >Theosophical *ideas*, but merely wish to publically denigrate the founders, > >and you actually have the guts to use a discussion list, run by and for > >Theosophists, to do so. > > Oh----your motives are always good & fine while mine are highly questionable > and negative? You're such a paragon of virtues, Mr JRC. Your words, not mine. Never said I was a paragon of virtue. What I *did* do, in response to a snide remark about "JRC", was fully and instantly explain my background and my motives. And I notice, despite your 10,000 word response to my post, that what you *didn't* respond to was the clear and specific request for *your* affiliations, background, and motives. > How do you know if I'm interested or not in theosophical *ideas*? FYI, I'm > much interested in theos ideas. I did not say you *weren't*. I said "you seem to have no interest in Theosophical *ideas*". This is because in all of your posts you've never *once* broached any topic dealing with the actual *philosophy*. >But my study is on Judge, his bio, history, > controversy surrounding him, ULT mythology on Judge, etc etc. Discussion of > theosophical ideas won't help much in this historical study--analysis. Even the way you frame the statement, "ULT mythology on Judge" quite clearly indicates not a "historical study-analysis", but research intended to try to support a pre-determined opinion. > Maybe I'm mistaken but I'm sure you'll let me know. Limit to 10,000 words > or less, Mr JRC. Add up all the words - indeed, even whole articles - you've posted to this list over the last few weeks "Mr. DG", then add up the number of mine. (And you don't even need to include the 100,000 words you've actually bothered to publish on a website). Uncertain exactly how *you* get the standing to try to limit *anyone's* posts. BTW, do you own this list? > Oh dear me, I have the guts to intrude on this discussion list, "run by and > for theosophists." Another sin of mine? Again this "sin" concept. Quite ... Christian of you. > Do you know whether I'm a > theosophist or not? How do you determine that? Are you the Mahatma to > determine whether I'm a true theosophist or not? Ah ... now that's a *very* good question. Ordinarily one would determine it by, oh, say, *asking* the person whether they were or weren't, by maybe even asking what TS organization they belonged to if they were. Naturally *very* relevant questions, especially as if you are a former member of the ULT, or a member of another organized group, it clearly makes your posts appear in a wholly different light. However, you have steadfastly *refused* to answer these questions, asked a number of times and quite specifically. Without this information, I might then draw my own conclusion from the *evidence* ... which up to now is that you very much resemble a number of other critics, mostly Christian fundamentalists, that have come onto this list - usually for a few months - and behaved almost identically. I'll be most happy to change that opinion the moment you actually decide to *answer* the most basic of questions. But you can't have it both ways - you can't both delibrately refuse to answer, and then *criticize me* for coming to my own conclusion *because* of your refusal. >OBTW, where does it say > that this list is "run by and for theosophists"----only? Non-theosophists > go away? It doesn't say "only" anywhere. Of course, you hardly seem to care what this list is about. On the off chance that you *do* ... it was started, and is run by a Theosophist, who generously manages it, and permits it to be hosted on a server where he used to work - he may even pay for it at this point. He does it to facilitate international discussion of Theosophy. While a number of Theosophical discussion lists are moderated, he has determined that everyone would be welcomed here - theosophists and non-theosophists - to post anything they wanted. This of course means that now and then people will join with motives that are quite different than the reasons for which the list was started, and seek to use it as a platform for their own ideas, or a medium for their own agendas. A good number of the list membership has been here for a couple of years - some even consider it an online Lodge of sorts. We have fought with one another, argued, helped one another with questions and helped newcomers find books and literature. Members of all the main TS organizations are here. You will notice you've never been told to "go away" (interesting how in the same post you managed to both criticize me for *welcoming* you to post anything, and then imply I've also told you to "go away"). You've never been told to "limit" the size of your exhaustive posts. What I *am* saying is that if you *want* to come on this list with what appears to be the relatively single-minded intention of digging up whatever dirt you can on Judge, and publishing it as widely as you can, and refuse to answer questions about your affiliations or motives, don't then act surprised and self-righteous when but a couple of people intensely question and critique *you* - on other lists you'd be swimming in flames, and on still others you simply would have been kicked off. Maybe you'd like to walk into the Vatican and start criticizing a Cardinal. Or walk into an Islamic temple and question the character of Mohammed. You'd get the identical response you'll get logging into theos-l and endlessly digging up dirt to publish on the Judge. So in case this is actually news to you, theos-l is a discussion list that was started by, and continues to be run by, a long time Theosophist, as a service. Its purpose, naturally, is to discuss Theosophy. Virtually all of its members are now, or have been, members or students of one of the Theosophical organizations. If you are *not*, you have not, and will not be told to "go away". You *will* find, however, that if you choose to try to "study" one of the early Theosophists with the clear and sole intention of criticism, on a list composed almost entirely of Theosophists, that (gosh! how surprising!) one or two people may actually think they have the right to (gasp) *respond*. > JRC, you're very broadminded & tolerant in your practice of universal > human-hood. Ah - this is a classic. One of the most common traits of our fundamentalist visitors. They'll blast away for a few months, someone will finally return to them the *exact* attitude they've been using, and they'll stand back and say "ha! see! you aren't practicing brotherhood". >I'm going back to Comedy Channel. And we thank you for your latest performance. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:45:34 GMT From: David Green Subject: Repartee JRC---- >No you aren't - in fact you have quite explicitly *asked* for *critical* >material. You haven't asked for any evidence other than that backing up a >very specific and already determined point of view. Apparently this is your >version of how to get the "real, complete story" - seeking only evidence >that backs up your own opinion. and what you arrive at will only be that - >your "complete, real" opinion. Word *critical* has more than one meaning or negative connotation. Consult dictionary---- "exercising or involving careful judgment" "an effort to see a think clearly and truly in order to judge it fairly" I've asked for critical (even negative) feedback on my critiques. And I've received some. JRC---- > >Dallas posts long and detailed posts, but hardly takes "every occaision" - >in fact, he rarely mentions people at all. Close to 95% of what he writes >is >quotes and his own view of Theosophical philosophy. Which is why 95% of the >people that respond to his posts talk about ideas. Close to 95% of what >*you* write are critiques of the motives and character of individuals. >Which >is why when people respond to *you* most of the time the topic is about >*your* motives and character. This actually surprises you? You actually >think it "selective"? You are receiving back precisely the attitudes you >are >expressing. Several times Mr TenBroeck has replied to comments about Mrs Tingley. This has happened on Internet as well as in theosophical magazines. His comments can be viewed as negative & have been so viewed by several Pasadena TS members. What motivates him to so respond? That was my only point since you are so big into motivations. JRC--- >You seem quite incensed >that when you freely post the volumes you've been posting, that people >would >actually *question* your motives and character in exactly the same way you >question those of the founders. Wanted to remind you that while you are >quite free to continue doing so, others are *also* quite free to respond to >*you* anyway they want. Even if you don't like it. I wonder if you've read what I've written on my website. I'm not the one claiming to be in contact with Masters or to be special messenger of Masters or to continue the Second Section. Mr Crosbie apparantly made these claims. One of my points was if ULT writers can harshly criticize Besant, Leadbeater, Olcott, Tingley etc. etc., why shouldn't Crosbie's claims also be critiqued. Again my criticisms have been mild in comparison with what is found in the ULT histories. I've not accused Mrs Tingley of forgery but ULT writers have. etc etc. It appears ULT people can dish out harsh criticism but can't take it when it is directed at the claims of their own founder. >And I notice, despite your 10,000 word >response to my post, that what you *didn't* respond to was the clear and >specific request for *your* affiliations, background, and motives. RE motives---what might I tell you that would convince you they were pure and upstanding? IF you want to perceive my motives as negative, nothing I can tell you will convince you otherwise. Who knows what your motives are behind all this writing of yours? I'm sure they're probably good but that doesn't certify that what you write is wrong or right. Maybe even Robert Crosbie's motives were the best of the best, that doesn't guarantee that his claims were also true or false. He may have been as deluded as ULT writers make Besant, Leadbeater, Tingley etc out to be. If you are extremely concerned with motivations, concern yourself with the ULT which still sells a theosophical history which is full of much harsher criticisms than you will find in my essays. Mr Dallas T advertises this book quite often on the Internet discussion groups. JRC------- >Even the way you frame the statement, "ULT mythology on Judge" quite >clearly >indicates not a "historical study-analysis", but research intended to try >to >support a pre-determined opinion. No, you're quite wrong. Had no opinion until I did alot of study & as a result arrived at this opinion. It was not *pre* determined. My opinion may be wrong but it was not predetermined. JRC----- >Again this "sin" concept. Quite ... Christian of you. Years ago I was nominal Christian but now, if anything, I'm theosophically inclined. But please disregard my assertion & suspect that I'm some Christian fundamentalist out to destroy ........................ JRC---- >Ah ... now that's a *very* good question. Ordinarily one would determine it >by, oh, say, *asking* the person whether they were or weren't, by maybe >even >asking what TS organization they belonged to if they were. Naturally *very* >relevant questions, especially as if you are a former member of the ULT, or >a member of another organized group, it clearly makes your posts appear in >a >wholly different light. However, you have steadfastly *refused* to answer >these questions, asked a number of times and quite specifically. Without >this information, I might then draw my own conclusion from the *evidence* >.... which up to now is that you very much resemble a number of other >critics, mostly Christian fundamentalists, that have come onto this list - >usually for a few months - and behaved almost identically. I'll be most >happy to change that opinion the moment you actually decide to *answer* the >most basic of questions. But you can't have it both ways - you can't both >delibrately refuse to answer, and then *criticize me* for coming to my own >conclusion *because* of your refusal. JRC---as you've written, you may come to any conclusion. Feel free to assign whatever motives you want to me. JRC------ ?what I *am* saying is >that if you *want* to come on this list with what appears to be the >relatively single-minded intention of digging up whatever dirt you can on >Judge, and publishing it as widely as you can, and refuse to answer >questions about your affiliations or motives, don't then act surprised and >self-righteous when but a couple of people intensely question and critique >*you* - on other lists you'd be swimming in flames, and on still others you >simply would have been kicked off. Maybe you'd like to walk into the >Vatican >and start criticizing a Cardinal. Or walk into an Islamic temple and >question the character of Mohammed. You'd get the identical response you'll >get logging into theos-l and endlessly digging up dirt to publish on the >Judge. What dirt have I posted on Judge? Specify the dirt that is on my website? Or are you referring to fact that Judge believed he was in contact with dead Mrs Blavatsky? Why is this considered---dirt? OBTW, are you subconsciously referring to the "dirt" that Besant & Olcott published about Judge? Or was the "dirt" really the truth? How can you tell the difference between dirt & truth? Are you comparing theos-l to Vatican or Islamic temple? I hoped theosophists at least on theos-l were somewhat more broadminded, liberal & progressive----- & could listen to negative views on theosophical subjects without knee jerk emotional reactions typical of religionists whether Christian fundamentalist, etc etc.. DG _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 21:59:03 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: Repartee The essence of it: >>But you can't have it both ways - you can't both > >delibrately refuse to answer, and then *criticize me* for coming to my own > >conclusion *because* of your refusal. > > JRC---as you've written, you may come to any conclusion. Feel free to > assign whatever motives you want to me. I do feel free ... and as I said, feel free at any moment to actually stop concealing the truth about yourself, so no one *has* to speculate. Cute little rhetorical tricks are not going to distract attention from the fact that despite *continued*, *repeated* and *direct* questions, you are *still* not going to tell anyone what university (if any) you are doing this so-called "dissertation" for, whether you now belong, or have ever belonged, to a theosophical organization, and why, on top of the "study" you claim to be doing is clearly a repeated attempt to spread one very distinct point of view of Judge and the ULT. Lacking that, I *will* continue to engage in the same sort "expose" of you that you seem to feel Judge and the ULT deserve. Myself, Doss, Dallas, pretty much anyone on this list would have no problem clearly stating their background, affiliations, universities, or anything else. And anyone, any modern scholar, with nothing to hide, and who wished their work to be *credible*, not only would have no problem simply stating the answers to these questions, but would in fact do so before even being asked - in fact its the information that most magazines openly *publish* in the "About the author" paragraph that ends most scholarly articles - it is *so* accepted as being relevant in modern arts and letters. Keep making your case against Judge if you wish - and I'll keep pointing out your continued refusal to supply even the simplest information - that increasing stands as evidence that you are doing something other than, or in addition to, what you claim, and may be concealing what most would interpret as a questionable motive for doing so. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:23:25 +0100 (British Summer Time) From: hesse600 Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy Dear all, JRC writes (and educates at least me): >> "The other side"? Of what? Theosophy is simply a single, small, current interation of esoteric traditions that have been around for millenia. They need no defense, certainly not against the likes of you. Your intense focus on the minutiae of the personal lives and correspondence of the founders makes it clear you've utterly missed the point of Theosophy, and probably couldn't understand in anyway. What will you do when you're done, go after Plato? You could write one of your scathing, well researched critiques of the Buddha - I hear there are some doubts about *his* personal life too. But don't be too surprised if the world's billion Buddhists don't exactly stand in awe of your intellect, and feel they need to make a case for "the other side". Theosophy is still around today, not because any one *person* wrote this or that private memo, but because the founders introduced a set of *ideas*, ideas that every one of them considered far larger and more important than their own small personalities (something I fear you'd have a very difficult time understanding), and these ideas were considered by at least a small group of people to be quite compelling, interesting, and worthy of their attention.>> I can second that. No one could stop me from studying theosophy, though very many have thought it fit to tell me I was a fool or an idiot or at least *strange*. >> Everyone that's been on this list for more than a few months knows me, my affiliations, and my motives quite well. You've never asked. Since you did, my name is John Crocker. I graduated from the University of Montana. I've been involved in Theosophy, off and on, for 15 years. I've periodically been a member of the Wheaton Theosophical Society, but am not currently. I've never been involved with the ULT, but have friends that are. I could care less about the personal lives of the founders, but find the philosophical ideas in some of their writings to be stimulating, and as worthy of consideration as any other school of philosophy is. I've been, in the past, at times very critical of official Theosophical organizations, but always with the motive of addressing what I considered problems, towards the end of improving them, and aiding in the expansion and distribution of Theosophical thought. >> Nice to get to know you. >> And thank *you* for being the current comedian onstage. Many of your lot have come and gone on this list over the years. But we haven't had one for several months now. -JRC>> Thanks for explaining. I now understand better why David has been getting so much attention. Katinka ---------------------- NHL Leeuwarden hesse600@tem.nhl.nl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:37:20 +0100 (British Summer Time) From: hesse600 Subject: Re: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy David Green wrote: > I'm interested in all sides of story concerning Robert Crosbie. OBTW, it's > ULT & its associates who've worked quite hard to keep the complete, real > story of Crosbie's life---well hidden. > Highly questionable characters? In many respects Mrs Blavatsky *appears* as > highly questionable character. Read Godwin's Theosophical Enlightenment, > Johnson's books, Carlson's No Religion Higher than Truth, Deveney's Paschal > Randolph etc etc. Blavatsky comes off as unsavory character. Maybe she's > not. Would like to know more of other side. Would you? Well, it is very easy to find out. Just today I received through the post (from my personal sponsor in theosophical studies) the book "H.P.B., In memory of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky" by some of her pupils as the title page says. Also, Johnson's books do not read as an all out negative on HPB's character. And then I have not even mentioned the biographies which are usually read by the historically minded within the TS (Adyar) by Silvia Cranston for instance. I forget the rest, but positive testimonies are easy to come by. HPB was a strong character, by all acounts, but could also be very kind and even humble, despite her knowledge. JRC is right in saying that it is her knowledge most of us on this list are interested in. >> But it's United Lodge of Theosophists in their histories which relentlessly paint Besant, Olcott, Chakravarti, Tingley, Hargrove, de Purucker as highly questionable characters. In all I've written about Mr Crosbie I've never said anything 1/10 as strong as what these ULTites have written about these famous theosophists. & it appears Mr Dallas TenBroeck takes every occasion he can to question Mrs Tingley's character. What are Dallas T.'s motives? & the ULT's motives for their character defamation of theosophists? Question my motives all you want but why this selective treatment? Next time Mr TenBroeck questions Mrs Tingley's character on theos-l, why don't you pen 10,000 word essay on him, his motives, etc etc etc?>> Dallas's motives are so clear, who needs question him? Speaking of Dallas... where are you? We haven't heard from you for quite some time. Katinka ---------------------- NHL Leeuwarden hesse600@tem.nhl.nl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:36:22 GMT From: David Green Subject: ULT writers accuse Mrs Tingley of forgery & deception John Garrigues & other U.L.T. writers have charged that "the much-proclaimed and never-produced 'private papers of Mr. Judge' bear a rather remarkable likeness to 'private notes' of Mrs. Tingley. . . [rather than] any documents in the handwriting of William Q. Judge." The evidence presented by Dr. H.N. Stokes has refuted this U.L.T. charge & insinuation. Refer to http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/thesign.htm for details. Unfortunately, United Lodge of Theosophists continues to sell book *The Theosophical Movement 1875-1950* which casts foul aspersions on character of Mrs. Katherine Tingley. Mr Dallas TenBroeck, ULT devotee, also continues to recommend on Internet this volume which defames Mrs. Tingley as well as other theosophists. Yet when I've closely examined & asked questions about ULT founder's claims, numerous ULT associates accuse me of defamation of Mr Crosbie's character. I've never accused Mr Crosbie of forgery. He may have been a quite sincere person & theosophist. The distinct message these ULT associates give is that while it is perfectly acceptable for ULT organisation (through its theosophical history book) to defame Mrs. Tingley & other well-known theosophists, no one should investigate or question the claims of Mr Crosbie. I believe if Mrs Blavatsky was here today, she would be first to call this behavior by ULT & some of its associates as unfair & untheosophical. When I've brought above to attention of ULT associates corresponding with me, they've sidestepped issue. To me this is behavior of cultists, not seekers of truth. Though relatively new student to theosophy, I find this behavior revolting & stain on theosophical ideals enunciated by Mrs Blavatsky & Mr Judge. David Green http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/index.html _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:32:36 -0500 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: David Green accuses ULT of defamation > Yet when I've closely examined & asked questions about ULT founder's claims, > numerous ULT associates accuse me of defamation of Mr Crosbie's character. When I've closely examined and asked questions about Mr. Green, his background, affiliations, and motives, he has always declined to identify exactly what started his pursuit of the ULT, and upon even pointing this out, he has accused me of being "untheosophical". Just want to remind everyone that we *still* don't know if he is, or was a member of a TS organization, what university he is doing his "dissertation" for, or why he continues to post messages like this current one (which clearly are not required for a university dissertation.) > The distinct message these ULT associates give is that while it is perfectly > acceptable for ULT organisation (through its theosophical history book) to > defame Mrs. Tingley & other well-known theosophists, no one should > investigate or question the claims of Mr Crosbie. The ULT has a book that Mr. Green takes issue with. Of course, the *vast* majority of ULT books, discussions, meetings, and posts concern not individuals, but the *ideas* in Theosophy. They are far more likely to focus time and energy on races and rounds, the sevenfold nature of principles, and the potential development of the human than on what Mr. Crosbie, or Mr. Judge, or HPB did or did not say. The distinct message Mr. Green gives is that the important part of Theosophy, the thing we should all focus on, is not its philosophy, or the comparative study of religion, philosophy, and science, but rather, on the minute details of the personality squabbles that exist in every organization on earth. > > I believe if Mrs Blavatsky was here today, she would be first to call this > behavior by ULT & some of its associates as unfair & untheosophical. When > I've brought above to attention of ULT associates corresponding with me, > they've sidestepped issue. And you certainly know what sidestepping an issue is all about. Brought up what issue, that fact that *your* belief is that HPB would act in a particular way? >To me this is behavior of cultists, not seekers > of truth. Hhhmmm ... so the act of ignoring your negative opinion of one of their past leaders, and ignoring your judgement of them as "unfair & untheosophical" is "cultish" in your world? They actually have the guts not to behave according to your specifications? Not react as you want them to? Guess what, walk into virtually any organization on *earth*, act like you are acting, and you'd pretty much get the identical response. Must be terrble to live in a world jammed so *full* of "cults". >Though relatively new student to theosophy, I find this behavior > revolting & stain on theosophical ideals enunciated by Mrs Blavatsky & Mr > Judge. Actually, if you believe the Mahatma Letters are from actual adepts, and you read the volumes written by HPB, there *is* a central principle that all of them kept attempting to re-iterate throughout there lives: *Focus on the philosophy, not the pettiness of personality*. In fact this trait, so common amongst western civilization, was considered in the writings of the adepts to be one of the most significant factors *preventing* westerners from gaining the right to access their wisdom. It continually frustrated them. If you read HPB and the Adepts *thoroughly*, you'd probably understand that were you to go up to her and try to make the case you'd been making voluminously here lately, she probably would actually "sidestep" the issue, and hand you Judge's "Ocean of Theosophy" or something ... not because you are right or wrong, but because to *focus* at that level is to utterly miss what she, and the Adepts, were about ...her entire focus - and the entire focus of the Masters - was always the *philosophy*. The *ideas*. Not the petty wranglings of personalities. They *always* exist. But they are meaningless next to the Wisdom. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 01:08:56 GMT From: David Green Subject: My affiliations, university, etc. Mister JRC----- >When I've closely examined and asked questions about Mr. Green, his >background, affiliations, and motives, he has always declined to identify >exactly what started his pursuit of the ULT, and upon even pointing this >out, he has accused me of being "untheosophical". > >Just want to remind everyone that we *still* don't know if he is, or was a >member of a TS organization, what university he is doing his "dissertation" >for, or why he continues to post messages like this current one (which >clearly are not required for a university dissertation.) 9 to 12 months ago---I was quite willing to relate my background, affiliations, motives, what university I attend, &c, &c. But---in last 6 months I've received several harassing phone calls at home & one of my professors received call at his office complaining about me. Probably calls were related to my investigation of Judge & Crosbie. At suggestion of 2 professors I no longer give out particulars about myself especially on internet or through email. I've had my phone number changed & unlisted to prevent reoccurrence of this. I'm beginning to understand darker aspect of some cults. It's not necessary to know my theosophical affiliations, background, &c. to appreciate what I've written about Crosbie, ULT, etc. Reader can assess accuracy of my material without knowing anything about me. I really regret I mentioned I was going to write dissertation on Judge & related subjects. This has served as an excuse for Mr JRC & others to focus on what is totally off the subject. But-----I plan to complete my dissertation. And my website on Theosophy is another forum for posting related material----& more material will be published on that site. Funny ----Mr JRC---it was one of my professors who initially suggested the website. I'm certainly interested in theosophical ideas & philosophy. This was my motivation for first studying Theosophy. But in last year I've worked on historical aspect of Theosophy. I became interested in W Judge & wanted to know about controversy surrounding him. I was quite intrigued by Mr Jerry Hejka-Ekins' negative responses to my serious questions & inquiries concerning controversy surrounding Judge. When I gave copies of JHE's responses to Mr John Cooper, he was puzzled by Mr Hejka-Ekins' responses. As a result Mr Cooper shared with me whole cache of ULT material. My initial interest in ULT was sparked by reading their 1925 history. One thing led to another. In last 6 months I've been also intrigued by ULT's attacks on non-ULT theosophical leaders ---- & reactions of ULTites to my examination of their leader---R Crosbie. At this point with both strong negative as well as postive reactions to my preliminary studies of ULT, I may rethink my dissertation & devote the whole of it to Crosbie & hidden side of ULT. In future, I'll only respond on these internet forums to responses on the Judge controversy & hidden side of ULT. I don't have time for repartee on off-the-subject topics. DG From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:21:37 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: My affiliations, university, etc. > one of my professors received call at his office complaining about me. > Probably calls were related to my investigation of Judge & Crosbie. \At > suggestion of 2 professors I no longer give out particulars about myself > especially on internet or through email. I've had my phone number changed > unlisted to prevent reoccurrence of this. I'm beginning to understand > darker aspect of some cults. > It's not necessary to know my theosophical affiliations, background, &c. to > appreciate what I've written about Crosbie, ULT, etc. Reader can assess > accuracy of my material without knowing anything about me. > I really regret I mentioned I was going to write dissertation on Judge & > related subjects. This has served as an excuse for Mr JRC & others to focus > on what is totally off the subject. Oh there is just *so* much delightful stuff here. Hard to even know where to begin. I especially like the "darker aspects of cults" line. So classic. You come into groups, act like a complete flaming arrogant jerk about stuff you've "studied" for all of a couple of years at most, around people who have spent their lives understanding it, you and your professors get a couple of phone calls, and suddenly you are understanding the "darker side of cults". Yep, now *that's* the measured response of an objective graduate student. Of course, it certainly does give you an excuse to keep your identity and affiliations hidden. and of course, another reason for doing so might be, what? Hhhhmmm, maybe that your purposes and credentials could actually be *verified* ... as being true or false. Guess what bucko - that is the *NORM* of modern scholarship. "It's not necessary to know my theosophical affiliations, background, &c. to appreciate what I've written about Crosbie, ULT, etc" - what the hell *universe* are you going to college in anyway? You claim to be a graduate student, and you *haven't* been trained to *examine the source* of material? You *haven't* been taught that examining the *MOTIVES* of any writer is not only valid, but absolutely *essential* to understanding the content? You actually believe that if, for instance, you were an ex-member of the ULT, or a *current* member of another TS organization, or going to school at a "Christian" University, it *wouldn't* matter in the way people *perceived and evaluated* what you were writing? That people that you expect to give you a "fair" reading don't have the *full right* to know *who* they are reading? Don't have the *right* to demand as much information of *you* as you are demanding of the objects of your "study"? Don't have *every* bit as legitimate a right to question *your* motives and behaviour as you feel you have to question those of ULT members? Do you realize dear boy that what you have finally done is constructed the perfect argument *against what you are doing*? Guess what? Guess what *Judge*, and *Crosbie*, and a lot of current ULT members would feel about *your* "studies" - they'd say "stop paying attention to who *I* am, and turn your attention to my *CONTENT*. Now who has been whining and complaining about that very thing? Oh, that's right. *YOU*. YOU, who has appointed himself judge and jury, You, who *simultaneously* wants to focus in intense depth on the personal histories, affiliations, motives and sins of the ULT and some of its founders, AND complain bitterly when people direct towards you the *precisely identical attitude*. You don't like it very much do you? It makes *you* seem as though *you* are acting terribly similar to a fanatical member of a "cult" - in fact, causes you to look almost exactly like the "darker side" of Christian fundamentalism - a thing that many Theosophists have personal experience with. How does it *feel*, bucko, to be completely mistaken? To be cast in a role from which you can't escape, and in which every action to try to defend yourself only serves to *confirm* that role. Would you say I had done an "objective study" of David Green? Well, its been precisely as objective a "study", carried out in the same fashion, as David Green has done of Theosophy. "I really regret I mentioned I was going to write dissertation on Judge & related subjects. This has served as an excuse for Mr JRC & others to focus on what is totally off the subject." Aahhh ... this is true *if* you believe *you* have complete control over what the "subject" is. You don't. Mentioning a dissertation didn't serve as an "excuse" for me. It served as an excuse for *you*. And it didn't work the way you wanted it to - so now you're complaining and regretful. If you *hadn't* stated a reason for your actions, you would have been *continually* asked about them - you tried to come up with a reason that would satisfy inquery, while still allowing you to remain completely secret -and it didn't work. You, sir, had damn well better get used to the fact that the *standards* of all major scholarship are quite clear about this. If you wanna write discourses critical of individuals or organizations, people *are* going to legitimately demand to know who *you* are. What your background is. What your creditials and affiliations are. And they have a *right* to know. And if you *don't* want to supply this information, do not *expect* your *content* to be accorded the same credibility as someone that *does*. It won't. Not here, not in any avenue of intellectual endeavor in modern arts and letters. > But-----I plan to complete my dissertation. And my website on Theosophy is > another forum for posting related material----& more material will be > published on that site. Funny ----Mr JRC---it was one of my professors who > initially suggested the website. Ah, now this is *really* interesting. Several things about your alledged motives have never made sense - and the more you speak, the more you appear to be simply lying. You say your *professors* and you got phone calls, and your *professors* suggested that you hide your identity, unlist your phone number, etc., etc. This sounds *way* more like you are making up these "professors", and putting your own words in their mouths. I know *my* professors, were both they and a graduate student to get harassing phone calls due to activities in an area of study -*especially* if it was suspected that these calls came *from* objects of that study - *certainly* would not simply defend the student, advise him to hide his identity and unlist his phone number ... that is far more what the emotional reaction of a *student* would be. To a genuine *professor*, it would be a clear sign that the student had made *serious* errors in their investigation, in fact *so* serious as to jeaprodize that project. Why? Rule one of virtually *any* credible research, be it in the hard sciences or social sciences, is that the *researcher* attempts to *minimize* his/her presence. Takes extraordinary pains to lessen the effect of the study itself on the objects studied. In the same way as a biologist trying to study cultures will wear a mask, and rubber gloves, so as not to introduce foregin objects from his own breath and skin, so too (and even more so) in the social sciences, the study of organizations and people, the *greatest* flaw in a researcher, the thing to be avoided at all costs, is to actually cause a group to act *differently* because of your own presence. While people calling your "professors" and you might make *you* react defensively, any legitimate and bona fide professor would instantly take that as a sign that you had made a *serious* mistake - that you had not only altered the envirnoment you were studying, thus rendering any results as illegitimate as a petri dish a biologist had accidently spit in ... but you've actually managed to provoke serious and strong emotional reactions from your subjects, and have actually made *yourself* a topic of discussion. A *student* might say "no fair - you're supposed to be paying attention to my *content* - but a genuine *professor* would say no - *YOU* screwed up badly, it is *your* responsibility to observe, record, and analyze, in such a fashion as to see what *exists*, not what exists as a result of *your* study. *Study* the group, it is not your *business* to actually not only takes *sides* in discussions *within* the group, but to actually by your actions inflame the arguments - doing so makes your research *USELESS*. Yet, not only would you have us believe that these professors found nothing wrong with what you are doing, and actually *encouraged* concealment, you actually would have us believe they went a step further and suggested that you put up a *website*. That not only didn't they *stop* you from badly distorting the research environment, they actually told to to *further screw it up*. To make sure that not only did you *become* an issue, but that you will *remain* an issue. No buddy, the more you reveal (as unintentionally as you reveal it), the more what you are saying simply makes no sense at all. You are *not* acting like a serious graduate student honestly attempted to *discover* a truth about something. Your so-called "professors" are certainly not acting anywhere close to the norm of those guiding modern graduate student research. Saying that your "professors" told you to hide your identity, that a "professor" suggested that you start a website - well, its a great way to try to lend credibility to actions that make no sense if your motives are what you say they are, but it doesn't work, in fact it only serves to make your story even more incredible and unlikely. And it won't work. It won't attract attention *away* from the fact that you are *not* credible as a scholar so long as you hide your identity, affiliations, background, university and other pertinent details. If we have no idea who *you* are in a way that can be verified, anything you say can simply be a story - including any mythical professors you'd care to create in an attempt to bolster your story. > In future, I'll only respond on these internet forums to responses on the > Judge controversy & hidden side of ULT. I don't have time for repartee on > off-the-subject topics. *You* want the topic to be under your control. If you want to publish on a publc list - it is *not*. You certainly don't need to answer anything. I however, will continue answer every post of yours that attempts to speak ill of Judge, or Crosbie, or the ULT under the guise of some alledged "study" - with what *I* consider to be "the topic": That a person is on a Theosophical diuscussion list that *claims* to be a well-intentioned researcher working under the guidance of university professors, while at the same time breaking virtually every rule of modern research, and telling us his professors approve of it and encourage it. But that it is appearing more and more unlikely with every post (I can see why you've decided to stop responding - you just about completely exposed yourself with this one), and appears far more to be someone with a definate and ulterior motive, who explicitly hides his entire background, when pushed tries to claim someone else told him to, and acts *far* more like someone with a definate activist purpose who desperately wants to avoid discovery - because people definately *would* analyze what he was saying in an entirely different light. so then, I'll continue the activities that, using DavidGreenese, I'll call "my studies" (even though "study" apparently means continual attempts to preach a very distinct point of view in and internal TS discussion) so long as Daved Green continues *his* "study" (which he seems to threaten to change with remarkable frequency). Plus, he really *is* fun to play with - for folks like me that have gone over to the "dark side". -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:22:14 GMT From: David Green Subject: ULT's Dzyan Esoteric School Several ULT associates doubt existence of Dzyan Esoteric School. I recently answered their inquiries---- In regards to your request I can't divulge names of the 8 members of DES who confided this information to me. I've inquired of the theosophist Mr Jerry Hejka-Edkins (Turlock, Calif) concerning DES material in Alexandria West archives. He answered his library holds DES instuctions from Mr Victor Endersby's papers. He confirmed what I already knew---DES is not defunct but still active. Contact Mr Hejka-Edkins for confirmation of existence of DES & copies of their esoteric material. Selections will soon be published on WWW --- http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/index.html Sincerely, David Green _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:59:15 GMT From: David Green Subject: Re: HPB & New World Order Nick Weeks----- I'll put link on my web page to Mr Steve Bonta's article on Mrs Blavatsky http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1999/03-01-99/newage.htm. Thank you for citation David http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/index.html >From: "Nick Weeks" >Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB & New World Order >Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 07:51:43 -0700 > > > > << Back in March, one Steve Bonta (possibly a missionary in India) wrote >the > > usual trashing & distorting article on HPB, the TS, Alice Bailey, >Annie > > Besant, Benjamin Creme et al. > > > > If you would like to read (and respond) go to: > > www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1999/03-01-99/newage.htm >> > > > > Nicholas _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:38:50 GMT From: David Green Subject: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet Recently I closely read THE ARMCHAIR TRAVELLER: HPB IN TIBET by Mr R.A.Gilbert http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/DIRECTORY/R.A.GILBERT/tibet1.txt I was shocked to find Mrs Blavatsky lied about trip to Tibet. Mr Gilbert's study proves her unreliability. He summarises----- Why did she claim to have travelled in Tibet - where she clearly had never been - and why did she place her Masters there? This week a theosophical writer has forwarded to me paper listing 98 lies by Mrs Blavatsky!!!!! Who can believe anything this woman writes. I'm hoping he'll publish article. I'm more convinced now of Dr Carlson's portrait of Mrs Blavatsky. David http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/index.html _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:49:36 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Interesting news Here is an interesting news item I just received from another maillist. mkr ======================= > Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:21:47 -0500 > From: mark500@xxxxx All: Found an interesting story recently: "PhyCor (a physician practice management company) quietly filed a libel lawsuit last year to unmask up to 50 "john does" who had pseudononymously posted critical remarks about the firm on a Yahoo Web site investor message board. PhyCor's strategy is aggressive, intimidating, and-as some physicians and others found out when they received news of subpoenas- quite legal. " from AMA news From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:12:56 +0100 From: "Peter Merriott" Subject: RE: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet David writes: >Who can believe anything this woman writes. After 30+ years of studying the works of HPB, and her Teachers I have found there to be an ever increasing level of realiability in all that she writes, especially on the 'Secret Doctrine' and the Esoteric Tradition. Having taking the trouble to also study and compare Theosophy with those doctrines often referred to as the Perenial Philosophy which includes, among others, the Upanishads, Buddhism and the Mystical Traditions in general etc I have found there to be a depth and profundity to those teachings given out by HPB that is hard to surpass. The essential and core teachings given out by her will be found throughout the Perenial Philisophy and much light is thrown thereon by her works. The open minded seeker will find a number of independent corroborations as to the existence of her Teachers and their whereabouts at that time. A few of these will be found in "Damador" by Sven Eek. Yet 'events' and eye witness accounts will always be open to question by others and rarely, if ever, provide absolute proof of anything. Each one of us must be the 'assessor' of the truth we seek to uncover. And it is in our 'hearts' and through our lives that we need to seek, to ascertain and to 'test' the fundamental spiritual truths expressed in Theosophy and where ever else the Wisdom Religion may lie scattered like hidden pearls amongst the various spiritual traditions What one invariably discovers in exploring the life of HPB is that she gave *all* that she had to bring and explain these fundamental Teachings to the world at large. Whatever defects her physical body and personality may have suffered, and she appears to have willingly suffered a great deal in the carrying out of her task, behind that 'personage' stands a great and noble Soul that had the welfare of humanity at heart and worked unceasingly on its behalf. Such wisdom, greatness and generosity of spirit that were HPB's are an example for us all to aspire towards if we so choose. ...Peter "When a pickpocket meets a Saint he sees only his pockets." (Eastern proverb) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:21:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet At 12:12 AM 6/13/1999 +0100, Peter Merriott wrote: > >"When a pickpocket meets a Saint he sees only his pockets." (Eastern >proverb) Peter: I have not heard about it before. A wonderful statement. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:27:10 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet Shocking new news! Tibet *itself* doesn't exist! Turns out HPB made up the whole *country* so she could have a mysterious eastern place to claim her masters came from! Oh, oh, wait, *this* just in: HPB *herself* didn't exist! Mr. Crosbie made *her* up, as one of his terrible tangled web of lies! Stay tuned, David Green, at this rate, will likely soon be posting an article on his dramatic website providing conclusive evidence of this! -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 09:56:10 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet > Recently I closely read THE ARMCHAIR TRAVELLER: HPB IN TIBET by Mr > R.A.Gilbert > http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/DIRECTORY/R.A.GILBERT/tibet1.txt > I was shocked to find Mrs Blavatsky lied about trip to Tibet. Mr Gilbert's > study proves her unreliability. Recently, I read Mr. David Green's post a bit more closely. I was shocked to find that on the basis of one book he would actually conclude that HPB, despite an enormity of evidence to the contrary, actually never went to Tibet. Why should you be "shocked" Mr. Green? You are vehemently, and with blinders the size of a small state, seeking to find confirmation of one narrow point of view. Don't be shocked when you find it ... assume that you will. The Theosophical founders have had a century full of critics and debunkers, many of them far more eminantly qualified than you. In their minds Theosophy is little other than a figment of HPB's imagination. Of course there's a huge number of things left curiously unexplained by their criticisms, and to this day professors at some of the most esteemed universities on earth look at the Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled as truly remarkable works - but such small points needn't get in your way. You seem to wish to pretend that you are on some journey of "discovery" - and apparently think that by saying, at every step of the way, that you are "shocked" at what you find, that this will somehow bolster your campaign (implying that we *too* should be "shocked"). Your "journey of discovery", however, is not the discovery of the truth, but merely a journey in which you discover others that share your own small point of view. Guess what - you can go on forever! There are many more critics that have trashed the TS over the last century that you haven't even stumbled across yet. If you consider the opinion of everyone that agrees with you to be "evidence", then running your little website will become a full time job ... you'll find more than ample evidence to convince you of your own pre-conceived ideas. Just as anyone here can find more than ample evidence that you are lying through your teeth about your background and motives. > This week a theosophical writer has forwarded to me paper listing 98 lies by > Mrs Blavatsky!!!!! Who can believe anything this woman writes. I'm hoping > he'll publish article. I'm more convinced now of Dr Carlson's portrait of > Mrs Blavatsky. This week I reflected further on your own twisted story of what you are doing, noticed it had changed several times, noticed that most of what you are *doing* does not even remotely jibe with what you *say* you are doing, and have become more convinced than ever that far from being a graduate student doing dissertation research for a credible university, you are in fact some poor pathetic soul who decided to glance at something superficially, apparently thought you had discovered something, was not given the open-armed welcome and acknowledgement you desired from Jerry H-J and a couple of others, had your poor little ego bruised, and since then have decided to enagage in a serious, mean-spirited and single-minded campaign to trash Theosophy and Theosophical writers. The more you speak, the more you expose yourself and your intentions. You seem to keep mentioning your website as something like a threat ... as though you are dramatically saying that you'll make all of your evidence "public". I doubt anyone's too awfully worried. There are hundreds of thousands of websites like yours on the web. Full of the rants and raves and "evidence" of countless fanatics building obscure cases for or against some weird, personal point of view about something. You can find complete "evidence" that the holocost never happened, that the CIA and Trilateralists are ruling the world, that Elvis landed in area "51", that marijuana is a Communist plot, that the Apocoplyse is right on schedule for 1/1/2000, that newborns are all secretly having microchips implanted in their hands. Most of them, like yours, will effectively change the minds of all of a dozen people, who's minds had already been changed anyway. And the number of hits to your site this *year* may, if you're lucky, equal the number of hits the actual TS sites get in a week. So you needn't bother perpetually telling us you're gonna (gasp) "post it on your site" - because at this point, for most of us, this simply translates into "I'm gonna make even a bigger ass of myself to the couple of dozen people that might hit my site in the next week". -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:25:35 GMT From: David Green Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet >Recently, I read Mr. David Green's post a bit more closely. I was shocked >to >find that on the basis of one book he would actually conclude that HPB, >despite an enormity of evidence to the contrary, actually never went to >Tibet. I'm sincerely interested in more details on "the enormity of evidence to the contrary." Turning to chapters on "Tibetan Sojourn" in S Cranston's HPB biography p 80-101 & re-reading these pages----I don't find answers to Mr Gilbert's level-headed criticisms. Can some theosophist point out this "enormity of evidence"? >to this >day professors at some of the most esteemed universities on earth look at >the Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled as truly remarkable works - Have these professors published papers acknowledging Mrs Blavatsky's 2 books as "truly remarkable works"? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:30:52 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet > I'm sincerely interested in more details on "the enormity of evidence to the > contrary." Turning to chapters on "Tibetan Sojourn" in S Cranston's HPB > biography p 80-101 & re-reading these pages----I don't find answers to Mr > Gilbert's level-headed criticisms. Can some theosophist point out this > "enormity of evidence"? Have you, BTW, read the Secret Doctrine? Isis Unveiled? The Mahatma Letters? How many times? How thoroughly? Before any Theosophist needs to *defend* Theosophy against you, *establish your credibility*. At what university are you studying? What field of research is your "dissertation" being written for? Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of any Theosophical organization? What are your *motives* for continuing your posts, your website ... since they clearly have nothing to do with gathering information for a dissertation. These are all questions that any Theosophist has a *right* to know before they lift even a finger to answer you. You, who by your own statements have all of a year or two familiarity with Theosophy, come on a list filled with people, many of whom have been studying Theosophical history *and* ideas literally for decades, refuse to give any details that could be *verified* about yourself, your affiliations, or your motives, and start stamping your feet like some arrogant, petulant child demanding Theosophists take the time to defend Theosophy against the "shocking" insights and evidence you've discovered in one critic's book. *You* have the balls to demand evidence, but when *asked* for evidence of your scholarly credentials, that you are what you say you are, doing only what you claim to be doing (which as the days pass makes less and less sense in the light of what is now clearly a campaign) you avoid, ignore, and attmept completely "sidestep" the issue, and try to claim that it makes no difference. Your lot has been around since the beginning. At first, Theosophists took the time to defend Theosophy - but came to realize what a waste of time that is. At this point, they are just ignored, humored, or fiddled with. In short, why *should* anyone waste a moment taking you seriously? You have yet to even vaugely qualify yourself as an actual credible student honestly seeking answers, in fact with almost every post you further show your true colors - and move farther and farther away from deserving the time or attention of the people on this list (and there are a number of them) that *could* and in the past *have* helped genuine students honestly seeking objective knowledge of Theosophy. Most of them are polite - when faced with those such as yourself (and we'll see one once every few months on this list) they usually just, as in this case, remain silent. A few of us (like myself) enjoy a bit of light rhetorical jousting - good exercise now and then to keep the mind sharp - but the fact is bucko that you are so similar to the many that have come and gone over the last few years on this list, and over the last century or so in Theosophy, that you're (without even realizing it) merely a sad, pathetic parody. Theosophists, as a whole, do not proselytize. They actually *assume* that many who hear of it will simply adopt your attitude. They welcome you to it, and will not try to convince you to change your mind. They *do*, on the whole, believe they are custodians of some remarkable and thought-provoking philosophical ideas, and for people that seem genuinely interested in trying to study and understand these ideas, they will gladly take time out from their own studies to suggest books, and work through some of the complexities of the thought. But most learned long ago not to waste their time on the likes of you. Sooner or later you, like all others, will just go away. Convinced you are right, and absolutely no wiser. Why should anyone pay any attention to you at all? Other than to have a wee bit of fun with you? -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:55:43 EDT From: Hazarapet@aol.com Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet In a message dated 6/13/99 12:25:49 PM Central Daylight Time, davidgreen@hotmail.com writes: > Recently, I read Mr. David Green's post a bit more closely. I was shocked > >to > >find that on the basis of one book he would actually conclude that HPB, > >despite an enormity of evidence to the contrary, actually never went to > >Tibet. > There is the book by R. Paul Johnson, titled The Masters Revealed: Madame Blavatsky and the Myth of the Great White Lodge, SUNY Press, that is a academic book having to pass through an blind academic review process before it is published, that works with a number of documents, including those of HPB, to establish on reasonable grounds that: 1. There were "mahatmas" with real historical identities and names which this book reveals and identifies for the first time (collating a number of previously unavailable documents of Albert Rawson, Agardi Metrovitch, Jamal ad-Din al-Afghani, Paulos Metamon, and Louis Bimstein aka Max Theon, etc., etc., etc.,). So, Serapis Bey is shown to probably be the Coptic Christian Paulos Metamon under whom Rawson and HPB studied together in the 1850s, Koot Hoomi was the cover-identity of Thakar Singh Sandhanwalia, Morya was the cover-identity for Maharaja Ranbir Singh of Kashmir. 2. That by her own admission in letters, HPB inflated into mythical proportions the image of these "mahatmas" in order to give them political cover for a variety of reasons and instructed people who knew them or met them to "move the geographical references from Kashmir and the Punjab to Tibet" (a Mahatma Letter gave the same instruction). 3. That HPB concealed her travels with fictional accounts of where she had been, and that while she did have Tibetan connections, she was never personally in Tibet. Rather, the times she claims to have been there, it was really Sikkhim, Kashmir, or Darjeeling. This accords with the old Imperial Russian records that are now available since the break-up of the old Soviet Socialist Union. It has led to subsequent research by I believe Antoine Faivre, Professor of Esoteric Studies, Sorbonne, that the Stanzas of Dyzan are a poor rendition of the Central Asian (Kalmuck and Mongol) version of early Dzog chen texts found also among the Bon po, including the Kun byed rgyal po'i mdo in its essential upadesa points (i.e. "stanzas" usually oral of a guru to direct disciple). I think this research will make HPB and her mahatmas much more interesting, down to earth and concrete than the inflated fantasies of many of her followers (or actually, the followers of Besant and the headbeater guy - A.P. Sinnett got thoroughly disgusted how Leadbeater jacked off every chance he thought no one was around and Krishnamurti reported how Leadbeater wanted group jack off sessions with him, his brother, and other boys.). Anyway, back to topic, the above title makes HPB a much more interesting and complex person (a powerful woman who got into places where women usually were forbidden), establishes with reasonable certainty that her quest was mixed spiritual and political (as were the motives of her teachers and companions - in essence, anti-western imperialism and anti-Christian missionary fundamentalism or anykind of fundamentalism, AND shows her involvements in India home-rule BEFORE besant was even around)), and thus, that while there were "mahatmas," they weren't the superbeings (even HPB admits it) typically believed in by theosophers but were glossed as such, in terms of identity and location, to protect them and HPB. HPB later regrets she created such an inflated image of them because the members of the TS, especially Olcott (she complains), had gone totally delusional in their fantasies of them having fantastic powers and ruling secretly as the secret government on earth guiding all events etc. etc. in her April 1886 letter to Franz Hartmann (Letters of HPB to Hartmann, 369-372). Time for some sobering up with a more realistic assessment of the greatness of HPB and her accomplishments and her flaws and failures. Grigor Vahan Ananikian From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:15:11 EDT From: Hazarapet@aol.com Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet In a message dated 6/13/99 12:25:49 PM Central Daylight Time, davidgreen@hotmail.com writes: > >to this > >day professors at some of the most esteemed universities on earth look at > >the Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled as truly remarkable works - > > > Have these professors published papers acknowledging Mrs Blavatsky's 2 books > > as "truly remarkable works"? > > Well, Robert Ellwood is a professor of religion and a big fan of them. I know of other professors who find them "remarkable" not because they are sacred revelation but because here a woman from the 19th century compiled a philosophy showing an intimate knowledge of a vast range of sources that westerners on the whole, even in academia, were unaware of and how her published work stimulated oriental studies and the massive translation project of Asian texts. Apart from that, there are many ways the word "remarkable" can be used I think. English were such a wishy washy race and their language allows one to lie with infinite shades of degree and nuance unlike other languages that have "evolved" less from their roots. I have heard it said, There was a remarkable man from Kent, who had one so long it bent, when it was time to screw, like Clinton he would fold it in two - and instead of coming, he went (hence no condemning medical proof). I have also heard remarkable used for one of last stories by Pravda before collapse of Soviet Union. Everybody who somebody knew it was going to happen. So, diplomatic corp in Moscow all meet for big party at British embassy. After much drinking with a few scandalous jokes about the relationship between Thatcher and Major, the diplomats began to brag big time about their personal accomplishments. Russian Assistant Embassador bragged he was big fast sprinter in 100 yard dash. The British Naval Attache says he was same in college. So, they clear floor and hall for race. Drunk Russian stumbles and falls at starting line and British Navy guy finishes. Next day, Pravda reports, "Russian Embassador Second in Race, British Attache Second to Last." American diplomat read headline, smiled, and told me, "The last remarkable headline of a remarkable rag." I learn quickly that rag is American word for newspaper of questionable quality. That certainly Pravda. Many different kinds of "remarkable" I think. Grigor From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:19:04 EDT From: Hazarapet@aol.com Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet In a message dated 6/13/99 1:30:08 PM Central Daylight Time, jrc@texas.net writes: > Are you now, or have you > ever been, a member of any Theosophical organization? Wasn't that a favorite line in 1950s by one of your alcoholic American senators that your memorable president Nixon was protege of? A McCartney?, McCarthy?, MacCarthy....? OOOhhhh!!!! I smell with-hunting and blacklist in that question. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:21:16 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Arguing is aerobic Peter wrote: >What one invariably discovers in exploring the life of HPB is that she gave >*all* that she had to bring and explain these fundamental Teachings to the >world at large. Whatever defects her physical body and personality may have >suffered, and she appears to have willingly suffered a great deal in the >carrying out of her task, behind that 'personage' stands a great and noble >Soul that had the welfare of humanity at heart and worked unceasingly on its >behalf. Such wisdom, greatness and generosity of spirit that were HPB's are >an example for us all to aspire towards if we so choose. Although HPB, at least in Thesophical circles, is someone who has greatly influenced and who had the "welfare of humanity at heart," one, I believe, needs to be careful in going overboard in singing her praises. HPB was not generous toward those who disagreed with her, nor was she very gentle when speaking about the "masses." She was also upset with her "Teachers," although refrained from rebelling too much, about their implications that her being a female automatically hindered her from receiving the 'whole truth.' Personally, I believe she should have told the "Masters" to 'stick it' regarding that piece of wisdom. A world of HPBs would not necessarily be the best world. Attacking or praising HPB does nothing toward furthering the Truth - for focusing on a person is not what it is all about. HPB was not a "saint" nor was she a "demon." And so it always goes. In my opinion, even defending HPB adds to the crap, muddles the waters of Truth. In areas of spirituality, the "messengers" will always be flawed - but the message will not. Debating the message, rather than the messenger, will probably be more constructive and growth-conducive. But, then again, I adore a good spat. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:45:42 GMT From: David Green Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet Grigor------ Thanks for reminder that Mr Gilbert's research is more than confirmed by Mr Paul Johnson's work. A re-reading of Mr Johnson's chapters on Tibet shows Mrs Blavatsky's Tibetan masters were myths & "covers" for persons actually residing in India. Conclusion----Mrs Blavatsky never had reason to go to Tibet. Where is "enormity of evidence" proving Mrs Blavatsky journeyed to Tibet & was trained by 2 mahatmas? Gilbert & Johnson couldn't find the evidence. David _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:03:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Faster access to Internet To many of us who have used fast - 10MB/sec and higher connections, the traditonal modem connection is very slow. First came ISDN -- expensive (relatively) and difficult to make it work and it did not take off. Now comes DSL/ADSL which is 10 or more times faster than 28.8. It works on regular phone line, except you have to be no farther than 15,000 feet from phone switch. It looks like it is going to take off. Only is some parts of the county it is available. One of the best FAQ on DSL/ADSL can be found at: www.azstarnet.net I learnt a lot from visiting the site. Would be well informed when it is available and cost effective to me. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:09:58 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet > Thanks for reminder that Mr Gilbert's research is more than confirmed by Mr > Paul Johnson's work. A re-reading of Mr Johnson's chapters on Tibet shows > Mrs Blavatsky's Tibetan masters were myths & "covers" for persons actually > residing in India. Conclusion----Mrs Blavatsky never had reason to go to > Tibet. Where is "enormity of evidence" proving Mrs Blavatsky journeyed to > Tibet & was trained by 2 mahatmas? Gilbert & Johnson couldn't find the > evidence. David: - Thanks for the reminder that you are still pursuing your single-minded mission to attempt to smear and discredit the *people* involved in Theosophy, without the scarcest mention of the philosophy. Thanks for the reminder that after a century HPB is still an immense enough figure to attract the buzzing of gnats. Oh yeah - just a further reminder: Mr. Green has still failed to provide even a fraction of the facts and evidence about himself that he demands others provide to him about historical figures. He claims now that HPB lied about going to Tibet, lied about being trained by Masters. Yet clearly he has lied, or concealed part of the truth, about his motives. His continual posts and website are things completely unnecessary for the completion of a dissertation, yet this is what he says he is doing. I wonder why Mr. Green, seeker of truth and demander of evidence that he is, is so reticent to provide even the most basic evidence about himself? Perhaps he would not care to be examined as thoroughly as he sees fit to examine others. He certainly is doing everything in his power to conceal himself and his identity ... and to try to ignore the fact that the information he is refusing to provide is the most basic, accepted information required for anyone that wishes to be taken seriously as a scholar. I wonder what Mr. Green is hiding? -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:15:27 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: Faster access to Internet > Only is some parts of the county it is available. One of the best FAQ on > DSL/ADSL can be found at: > > www.azstarnet.net > > I learnt a lot from visiting the site. Would be well informed when it is > available and cost effective to me. Southwestern Bell just started offering DSL in Texas. I may look into it. I know someone that's got it - lightening fast. But is gonna be nothing next to what is possible when internet access starts coming into homes over the cable lines - connections faster than even a T1 will be possible. That site, by the way, is oddly familiar - its in Phoenix, isn't it? A couple of people on this list log in to that service I think. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:14:11 +0200 (Romance Daylight Time) From: hesse600 Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet > > I'm sincerely interested in more details on "the enormity of evidence to the > contrary." Turning to chapters on "Tibetan Sojourn" in S Cranston's HPB > biography p 80-101 & re-reading these pages----I don't find answers to Mr > Gilbert's level-headed criticisms. Can some theosophist point out this > "enormity of evidence"? There is no enormity of evidence. THat is obvious for anyone who knows anything about theosophical history. HPB made very sure that no one followed her to Tibet, so there are simply no witnesses. THink what you like. Katinka ---------------------- NHL Leeuwarden hesse600@tem.nhl.nl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 05:28:51 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet > There is no enormity of evidence. THat is obvious for > anyone who knows anything about theosophical history. HPB > made very sure that no one followed her to Tibet, so there > are simply no witnesses. THink what you like. > Katinka There is more evidence that HPB went to Tibet than there is that David Green is a university student doing a "dissertation". That is obvious to anyone that has read his posts. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 07:21:24 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Faster access to Internet At 06:15 PM 6/13/1999 -0600, you wrote: I wrote: [ Only is some parts of the county it is available. One of the best FAQ on DSL/ADSL can be found at: www.azstarnet.net I learnt a lot from visiting the site. Would be well informed when it is available and cost effective to me.] You wrote: That site, by the way, is oddly familiar - its in Phoenix, isn't it? A couple of people on this list log in to that service I think. -JRC Yeah. It is in Tucson, AZ. Others also may recognize the ISP. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 07:24:18 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Faster access to Internet - followup+++ ++++++++ At 06:15 PM 6/13/1999 -0600, you wrote: I wrote: [ Only is some parts of the county it is available. One of the best FAQ on DSL/ADSL can be found at: www.azstarnet.net I learnt a lot from visiting the site. Would be well informed when it is available and cost effective to me.] You wrote: That site, by the way, is oddly familiar - its in Phoenix, isn't it? A couple of people on this list log in to that service I think. -JRC Yeah. It is in Tucson, AZ. Others also may recognize the ISP. mkr BTW, do those folk(s) on the list know each other? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:44:15 +0000 From: "mika perala" Subject: sober time Grigor wrote: > Time for some sobering up with a more realistic assessment of the > greatness of HPB and her accomplishments and her flaws and failures. Couldn`t agree more. I recommend reading Mr. Johnson`s book. If he is right (which I think and hope is the case) it does not devalue HPB in my eyes. On the contrary, I can take her more seriously and especially I can view the 'masters' now as realistic beings (humans) and not any fantasy figures. mika perala Finland "...take care they do not sleep in the pyjamas that are responsible for so much evil in your civilisation..." Masterīs instructions for bringing up the World Teacher (and his brother) according to Leadbeater From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:46:12 +0200 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: sober time > I recommend reading Mr. Johnson`s book. If he is right (which I > think and hope is the case) it does not devalue HPB in my eyes. > On the contrary, I can take her more seriously and especially I can > view the 'masters' now as realistic beings (humans) and not any > fantasy figures. > > > mika perala > Finland Since when the Masters are anything else than realistic human beings? That was the picture HPB tried to spread. Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:20:36 -0500 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: sober time > Since when the Masters are anything else than realistic human beings? That > was the picture HPB tried to spread. > Frank Must admit I was a bit confused by this too. Not only HPB, but they themselves. Besides which, all of this still misses the point. Neither HPB nor they ever tried to bring the focus on themselves - it was the philosophy they considered important. Who said what to whom, who traveled where, or when, or with who ... who this person might be and that person might be ... yeesh - no wonder after a couple of decades of dealing with westerners they just retreated back into silence. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:01:19 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet in Universities The almost unlimited Internet resources made available in the Universities seems to set the trend for the future -- tight integration of Internet into the lives of everyone. In the Universities, starting from freshman(woman) year, every student is provided with free e-mail access. In addition, they can create their own site -- their imagination is the limit -- the exception being you cannot use the site for commercial purposes or have hot games on your site -- the schools do not want the entire world to visit the game site and bring down the whole school system due to overload. They also encourage to set up your own server with a high speed 10 MBps connection. Students can also set up mailists at no expense to them. All the buildings are wired for high speed access - 10Mbps -- these include dorms. With a high speed connection, you are connected to Internet 24 hours of the day seven days of the week! So no student need to use free e-mail sites such as hotmail or use free websites (funded by the ads). This applies to everyone in the academic community -- students, teachers, professors, librarians, etc. etc. If you are a faculty or graduate student, the schools will provide almost any Internet resource one needs. I thought many would be interested in the above since it forbodes the intense use of Internet. BTW, now middle and high schools are teaching their students how to setup websites as part of their curriculum. It looks like setting up websites is going to be like learning how to drive an auto. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:26:38 +0000 From: "mika perala" Subject: re:sober time > Since when the Masters are anything else than realistic human beings? That > was the picture HPB tried to spread. > Frank Yes, you`re right. I was just unlucky to get in touch with so called Leadbeaterian theosophists when I got first interested in theosophy. Leadbeater`s view of the masters was very peculiar. People believe in him anyway and so did I at first. > > "...take care they do not sleep in the pyjamas that are responsible > for so much evil in your civilisation..." Masterīs instructions for > bringing up the World Teacher (and his brother) according to > Leadbeater > > > Must admit I was a bit confused by this too. Not only HPB, but they > themselves. Besides which, all of this still misses the point. Neither HPB > nor they ever tried to bring the focus on themselves - it was the philosophy > they considered important. Who said what to whom, who traveled where, or > when, or with who ... who this person might be and that person might be ... > yeesh - no wonder after a couple of decades of dealing with westerners they > just retreated back into silence. -JRC I agree that the teachings are the most important thing. But, I believe now, that they had much more politics in mind than is generally acknowledged amongst theosophists and I think it is important to know that. And, yes, it is not that important who they were or what their real names were. It just became important to me when I was trying to get rid of the silly-occultism of Leadbeater. I (and I`m sure I`m not the only one) needed that information by P.Johnson & co. to clear some things in my head - even if their theories are not correct. Mika Perala From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:47:16 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Privacy in today's world Internet is a wonderful medium of communication, is still in its infancy. Its full full effect on the world is going to be very far reaching and no one can even predict the scenario five years into the future. On one hand, instant communication at almost negligible cost and the immediate access to almost unlimited information on almost any subject is a great blessing; on the other hand, misuse of information as well as reduction in privacy of individuals. Messages which usually take a route with many hops (around the country and world, in some cases), anyone with enough computer skills and access can read them. Tracking of origin of messages is even easier even with the proliferation of accommodation e-mail providers. Combined with the availability of other on-line information, a *lot* can be known about a person in the country. You can even get the floor plan of the house one lives in. Many of use do not need unnecessary publicity and would like to keep a low profile. But this is becoming very difficult keep personal information confidential. Daily such information is sold by people who collect them and process them. Even some states do sell such confidential information as one's salary. Here are some ideas if you want to decrease information that can and will be sold by purveyors of such info. Here are the 10 Commandments: 1. Don't have an account with a bank or other financial institution.. 2. Don't own any property =96 real or business. 3. Don't use a credit card. 4. Don't have a driver license. 5. Don't be in a profession which needs a license. 6. Don't borrow from any financial institution. 7. Don't participate in any raffles or give awys. 8. Don't have a telephone. 9. Don't be a customer of local utilities. 10. Don't get a passport. MKR (c) M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:09:11 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: HPB book In a message dated 6/14/99 11:58:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, theos-l@list.vnet.net writes: << I recommend reading Mr. Johnson`s book. >> I got a thick biography by Cranston, which I haven't yet read, but it looks chock-full of interesting stuff. Anyone read it? What do you think? Is it "valid"? Thanks, Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:41:58 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: HPB book I enjoyed reading it. Found some interesting facts I saw for the first time. You should at least browse it. mkr At 09:09 PM 6/17/1999 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 6/14/99 11:58:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >theos-l@list.vnet.net writes: > ><< I recommend reading Mr. Johnson`s book. >> > >I got a thick biography by Cranston, which I haven't yet read, but it looks >chock-full of interesting stuff. Anyone read it? What do you think? Is it >"valid"? >Thanks, >Christine > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:33:07 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: June 12, 1999 In a message dated 6/12/99 11:58:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, theos-l@list.vnet.net writes: << Plus, he really *is* fun to play with - for folks like me that have gone over to the "dark side". -JRC >> Just my two cents - one of the things that attracted me to theosophy was its very anti-cult nature. So anyone who calls it a "cult" betrays the most fundamental (ist?) ignorance, in my opinion. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Updates to and Expansion of Theosophical History Webpage Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 06:54:19 -0500 At 04:37 PM 6/17/1999 -0500, John Patrick Deveney wrote: >The Theosophical History Webpage http://idt.net/~pdeveney/ >has been updated and expanded. > >(1) The full text of the early numbers of the Journal are being uploaded, >and some are now available online. More to follow. > >(2) Original documents of Theosophical history are being uploaded, >including H.P. Blavatsky's naturalization papers. It was a breath of fresh air to read about the full text of early numbers and other documents uploaded to the site. Making the publications available on line allows far more people to have access to the material and read them and benefit by them. This is especially true of people in Asia and Eastern Europe. Many would be looking forward to more uploads in the future. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:05:04 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Power of Internet The power of Internet as a medium of communication and information availability and retrieval is growing. The help one is able to get in the cyberspace is invaluable and sometimes there is no easy substitute. My experiences confirmed it and thought I should share with all of you. First related to fixing my computer. My computer motherboard showed signs of failure. Not wanting to take the risk of waiting it to fail I decided to change the MB and go for a faster processor. Buying them was easiest part. Once installed, there were problems. Had to go to the websites of the MB mfr, CPU chip mfr, chipset chip mfr, Microsoft, Dejanews (for finding the problem solutions), peripheral mfr. and finally after several visits to all the sites above and several downloads of fixes and updates to software, finally everything is working. But for Internet, I could not have found the solutions and could not have gotten the needed software updates, hardware settings etc. Many of the computer parts mfrs rely on their website to provide information and help -- hard copy approach is going out of the door. This trend is going to grow as everyone finds Internet gets integrated in our day to day life and becomes indispensable like telephone, fax, auto etc. The second instance was when one of our well known friends due to the ignorance of the copyright law was trying to tell me that no one could talk about any unpublished material. I went to a discussion group which has many copyright attorneys gave me the feedback that he was wrong and unpublished material content can be disclosed -- otherwise newspapers can't even report any info of public importance from unpublished material. So I wrote him back that he was wrong about it and have not heard from him since on the topic. (must have been a disappointment in his effort to keep unpublished material content secret). All the info was obtained at no cost except my time on the Internet. Third instance was resolving an apparent problem in the auto. The diagnosis of the problem would cost about $50.00 at the dealer. A simple solution was found and it worked. Took 5 minutes of my time on the auto. With the availability of theosophical materials on the cyberspace for free, and with more people accessing Internet, I think there is a great opportunity out there for the public to learn about theosophy at no cost to them. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:30:26 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye Subject: The Blavatsky Archives Online THE BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/index.htm In the forthcoming edition of my book *The Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky* (Wheaton, Illinois, The Theosophical Publishing House), I've compiled scores of primary source accounts on H.P.B.'s life, occult phenomena, encounters with her Masters, etc. My archives and files contain hundreds of *other* accounts and articles (positive and negative) on Madame Blavatsky. The Blavatsky Archives Online plans to publish many of these documents. The three items below are a mere sampling of what will eventually be published on this web site. Statement of Mr. Bhavani Shankar [on the Theosophical Mahatmas]. Theosophic Thaumaturgy---A Startling Story [from The Bombay Gazette] Critical Historical Review of The Theosophical Society [An Expose of Madame Blavatsky] by William Emmette Coleman These items are located on the WWW at http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/index.htm Daniel H. Caldwell blafoun@azstarnet.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 07:21:30 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: ISP Reveals Scientology Critic (fwd) Here is an interesting case on the issue of anonymity on Internet which I saw. The comment that is interesting is that: "Nonetheless, those who seek to comments are not Constitutionally entitled to anonymity. The potential abuse for anonymous comment is great: defamation, fraud, stalking, etc. Therefore, with rights come responsibility. If it is worth saying in publication, it's worth putting your name to it... the choice is yours." Something to think about!!!! mkr =================================== > Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:48:09 -0400 > Sender: owner-cni-copyright@cni.org > From: "Juhre, Michael" > Subject: ISP Reveals Scientology Critic (fwd) An interesting case which was posted on "Surveillance List Forum" (6400 Members from 72 Countries around the World... "We don't spy on you... but we DO keep an eye on those that do..." ) Michael Juhre =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > From: "Terrance L. Kawles" > Subject: Re: ISP Reveals Scientology Critic > > >4) From: FGM7516@aol.com > >Subject: ISP Reveals Scientology Critic THE "SAFE" STORY Internet service provider AT&T, in response to a subpoena, released the identity of a WorldNet subscriber to Bridge Publications, a corporate arm of the Church of Scientology. The subscriber, known as "Safe," allegedly posted portions of the church's doctrine to a newsgroup critical of Scientology. The church claimed that these postings violate its copyright, and under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, obtained a subpoena to induce AT&T to reveal Safe's personal information. Bridge's attorney who filed the subpoena, said that Safe had made "unauthorized, verbatim postings," from the group's copyrighted doctrines. Safe contended that his postings were not verbatim. The idea of using of the Copyright Law to control commentary is not new, but its use on a new class of people the previously did not have the unlimited potential of the Internet at their "mouse click" is. The Church of Scientology The Church of Scientology, of L. Ron Hubbard, Dyanetics, John Travolta, etc. fame, is well-known for its use (or misuse) of Copyright Law as a method of controlling critical comment pertaining to its doctrines. By copyrighting their writings, they seek to control direct reference to their writings in publications by outside parties. This technique is tantamount to the Pope (taking authorship/ownership and public domain issues aside) copyrighting the New Testament and suing Jimmy Swaggart for quoting the New Testament in any comments that may be critical of Roman Catholic doctrine. Clearly, the fair use doctrine, used correctly by the commentor, allows the use of such copyrighted writings within the context of comment or criticism. The Church of Scientology knows that, but it hoping that the commentator does not have the stomach to fight them within the judicial framework. In addition, it may be their intention to set a precedent regarding these issues, thereby having a "chilling" effect on those potential commentators who do not have the stomach for defending their rights of commentary in a court of law. As for Safe: are you really entitled to offer critical comment publicly in anonymity? Maybe the answer is "yes." But if you get harassed, the source of disclosure could only be a deep-pocket (via subpoena). Welcome a lawsuit. As for the alleged harassment of Keith Henson: If such acts arise, you have potential causes of action for defamation, prima facie tort, assult, etc. Mr. Henson has a judicial remedy against a deep-pocket defendant, a scenario most lawyers are willing to undertake, perhaps even on contingency. For both: the counter-suit is always an effective counter-attack, especially in jurisdictions where the prevailing party may be entitled to attorneys fees. Finally, on issues such as this, look for help from the numerous legal-aid type organizations that specifically defend these type of free speech issues. Right to Commentary and Anonymity Nonetheless, those who seek to comments are not Constitutionally entitled to anonymity. The potential abuse for anonymous comment is great: defamation, fraud, stalking, etc. Therefore, with rights come responsibility. If it is worth saying in publication, it's worth putting your name to it... the choice is yours. It is also crucial to remember that there is a substantial difference between what you can say in so-called private/personal email between two parties and a public posting to a news group, chat room etc. The First Amendment It is unclear whether the first amendment grants an additional privilege to make unauthorized copies of protected works beyond that granted by the doctrine of fair use. While law experts argue that a separate defense against an allegation of copyright infringement does exist, courts have not agreed. Instead, courts have stated that the combination of the fair use doctrine and the fact that copyright does not prevent the copying of facts and ideas secures society's interest in free speech. The Bottom Line. 1. Use only the exerpts needed to illustrate your commentary and/or criticism; you are not entitled to copy an entire copyrighted work. 2. Remember: copyrighted works are fair game for comment, criticism and (believe it or not) PARODY! and 3. If someone rattles their sabres at you over legitimate comment, criticism or parody, threaten them with a countersuit for malicious prosecution! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:31:58 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: What next? In the announcement of the TH Webpage, I found the following: The most important addition to the TH webpage is the long-awaited uploading of a variety of full text materials to the page, including the earliest numbers of Theosophical History. We have also uploaded the first of what we hope will be a vast library of original research material--in this case, H.P. Blavatsky's Declaration of Intent to become a U.S. Citizen, and her Naturalization papers. Soon to follow will the the complete court files of H.P.B.'s litigation with Clementine Gerebko and of Col. Olcott's messy divorce in late 1874. ================ What interested me was the mention of Olcott's divorce in 1874. I do not know what is of historical or theosophical significance in the details of the court proceedings. Olcott himself had written about his being a man of the world before he was introduced to theosophy. That being the case it would be interesting to find out what is in the court proceedings that is of significance to day. What next? Besan't divorce papers? Other theosophical leaders court papers? A day may come when court papers of yours and mine would be on the webpages somewhere in the cyberspace. Are we getting into "yellow" journalism? We will have to wait and see. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:46:33 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: 2nd Coming of Messiah Various people have various opinions about the 2nd coming. Latest is a news item where a church is expecting Him to make an appearance in Jerusalem in year 2000 at the church and have set up a video camera which is hooked on to Internet so the event can be captured and transmitted live. Wonder who all would be the apostles if this does happen. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:12:12 +1000 From: Richard Caruana Subject: quatrains translated in Isis Unveiled/ What is the source? Hello my name is Richard Caruana I have found a translation of an old french prophecy author unknown. Translation by Madame Helena Petrovna Blavatsky in a book titled 'ISIS UNVEILED' obviously it is not Nostradamus because the year is wrong.(1453) Can you help me source who the originator of these quatrains belongs to? kindest regards Richard caruanar@acay.com.au bellow is a facsimile of the pages from 'ISIS UNVEILED' page 260 THE VEIL OF ISIS. skepticism that the former will prevail over the latter. Mr. Proctor, in his professional capacity, is like the uncharitable person of the Sermon on the Mount, who is ever ready to attract public attention to the mote in his despised neighbor's eye, and overlook the beam in his own. Were we to record the failures and ridiculous blunders of astronomers, we are afraid they would outnumber by far those of the astrologers. Present events fully vindicate Nostradamus, who has been so much ridiculed by our skeptics. In an old book of prophecies, published in the fifteenth century (an edition of 1453), we read the following, among other astroiogical predictions:* "In twice two hundred years, the Bear The Crescent will assail; But if the Cock and Bull unite, The Bear will not prevail. In twice ten years again- Let Islam know and fear- The Cross shall stand, the Crescent wane, Dissolve, and disappear." In just twice two hundred years from the date of that prophecy, we had the Crimean war, during which the alliance of the Gallic Cock and English Bull interfered with the political designs of the Russian Bear. In 1856 the war was ended, and Turkev, or the Crescent, closely escaped destruction. In the present year (1876) the most unexpected events of a political character have just taken place, and twice ten years have elapsed since peace was proclaimed. Everything seems to bid fair for a fulfilment of the old prophecy; the future will tell whether the Moslem Crescent, which seems, indeed, to be waning, will irrevocably "wane, dissolve, and disappear," as the outcome of the present troubles. In explaining away the heterodox facts which he appears to have encountered in his pursuit of knowledge, Mr. Proctor is obliged more than once in his work, to fall back upon these "curious coincidences." One of the most curious of these is stated by him in a foot-note (page 301) as follows: "I do not here dwell on the curious coincidence-if, indeed, Chaldean astrologers had not discovered the ring of Saturn-that they showed the god corresponding within a ring and triple.... Very moderate optical knowledge-such, indeed, as we may fairly infer from the * The library of a relative of the writer contains a copy of a French edition of this unique work. The prophecies are given in the old French language, and are very difficult for the student of modern French to decipher. We give, therefore, an English version, which is said to be taken from a book in the possession of a gentleman in Somersetshire, England. THE STRANGE PROPHECY OF NOSTRADAMUS. 261 presence of optical instruments among Assyrian remains-might have led to the discovery of Saturnal rings and Jupiter's moons.... Bel, the Assyrian Jupiter," he adds, "was represented sometimes with four startipped wings. But it is possible that these are mere coincidences." In short, Mr. Proctor's theory of coincidence becomes finally more suggestive of miracle than the facts themselves. For coincidences our friends the skeptics appear to have an unappeasable appetite. We have brought sufficient testimony in the preceding chapter to show that the ancients must have used as good optical instruments as we have now. Were the instruments in possession of Nebuchadnezzar of such moderate power, and the knowledge of his astronomers so very contemptible, when, according to Rawlinson's reading of the tiles, the Birs-Nimrud, or temple of Borsippa, had seven stages, symbolical of the concentric circles of the seven spheres, each built of tiles and metals to correspond with the color of the ruling planet of the sphere typified? Is it a coincidence again, that they should have appropriated to each planet the color which our latest telescopic discoveries show to be the real one?* Or is it again a coincidence, that Plato should have indicated in the Timccus his knowledge of the indestructibility of matter, of conservation of energy, and correlation of forces? "The latest word of modern philosophy," says Jowett, "is continuity and development, but to Plato this is the beginning and foundation of science."" The radical element of the oldest religions was essentially sabaistic; and we maintain that their myths and allegories-if once correctly and thoroughly interpreted, will dovetail with the most exact astronomical notions of our day. We will say more; there is hardly a scientific law- whether pertaining to physical astronomy or physical geography-that could not be easily pointed out in the ingenious combinations of their fables. They allegorised the most important as well as the most trifling causes of the celestial motions; the nature of every phenomenon was personified; and in the mythical biographies of the Olympic gods and goddesses, one well acquainted with the latest principles of physics and chemistry can find their causes, inter-agencies, and mutual relations embodied in the deportment and course of action of the fickle deities. The atmospheric electricity in its neutral and latent states is embodied usually in demi-gods and goddesses, whose scene of action is more limited to earth and who, in their occasional flights to the higher deific regions, display their electric tempers always in strict proportion with the increase of distance from the earth's surface: the weapons of Hercules and Thor were *See Rav.linson, vol. xvii., pp. 30-32, Revised edition. t Jowett: Introduction to "Tim~eus," "Dial. of Plato," vol. i., p. So9. She mentions a year "In twice two hundred years, the Bear The Crescent will assail; But if the Cock and Bull unite, The Bear will not prevail. In twice ten years again- Let Islam know and fear- The Cross shall stand, the Crescent wane, Dissolve, and disappear." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:01:44 +0200 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Mrs Blavatsky lied about journey in Tibet > David (aka LSOS) > LSOS: Does that mean: Lord, see our sins, or what??? Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:10:10 +0100 (British Summer Time) From: hesse600 Subject: Re: re:sober time > Yes, you`re right. I was just unlucky to get in touch with so called > Leadbeaterian theosophists when I got first interested in > theosophy. Leadbeater`s view of the masters was very peculiar. > People believe in him anyway and so did I at first. Yes, I have heard about that. It seems to be (in the Dutch TS-Adyar) a myth still at the back of our minds. I do not know how strong the Leadbeater influance still is elsewhere. I hope it is receding. Katinka ---------------------- NHL Leeuwarden hesse600@tem.nhl.nl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:15:18 +0100 (British Summer Time) From: hesse600 Subject: Re: HPB book > << I recommend reading Mr. Johnson`s book. >> > > I got a thick biography by Cranston, which I haven't yet read, but it looks > chock-full of interesting stuff. Anyone read it? What do you think? Is it > "valid"? Yes, it seems valid to me. It is one of the pro-Blavatsky-biographies. If you have not been Leadbeater-contaminated it will not get you into that mystifying set of idea's I think. It is easy to read and was very interesting to me. Also it tries to speak of both the woman HPBlavatsky and the internal Self that went beyond the sometimes (seemingly?) agressive personality. If you really want a rounded view you probably need to read more than just one book. the combination Johnson / Cranston works for me. Katinka ---------------------- NHL Leeuwarden hesse600@tem.nhl.nl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:14:03 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An Interesting News Item CELLULAR PHONES AND BRAIN TUMORS? A $27 million study performed by Wireless Technology Research and funded by the cellular phone industry has suggested that there is a correlation between cell phone emissions and a higher incidence of humor brain tumors, cell growth in human blood micronuclei and DNA breakage in rats. The possibility that radio frequencies might cause genetic damage has been rumored for some time, but the study's findings have spurred calls for coordinated public health action. The conclusions parallel those of studies done regarding the damage caused by microwave emissions, which are near cell phones on the radio frequency spectrum. Wireless Technology Research's web site may be found at http://www.wtrllc.com/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 28 Jun 1999 15:12:41 MDT From: ESTELA LUNA Subject: mix Ramadoss wrote: >CELLULAR PHONES AND BRAIN TUMORS? I don't know....but do you know if you can get tumors by using a pager?? do you think so?? Estrella ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 28 Jun 1999 15:41:49 MDT From: ESTELA LUNA Subject: Re: [theos-l digest: June 25, 1999] " >> Yes, you`re right. I was just unlucky to get in touch with so called = >> Leadbeaterian theosophists when I got first interested in = >> theosophy. Leadbeater`s view of the masters was very peculiar. = >> People believe in him anyway and so did I at first. = >Yes, I have heard about that. It seems to be (in the Dutch = >TS-Adyar) a myth still at the back of our minds. I do not = >know how strong the Leadbeater influance still is = >elsewhere. I hope it is receding. >Katinka >Yes, it seems valid to me. It is one of the = >pro-Blavatsky-biographies. If you have not been = >Leadbeater-contaminated it will not get you into that = >mystifying set of idea's I think. I really don't know much about Leadbeater, only the controversial feature= s mostly, but I think that not all of his influence over Theosophy and the theosophical movement has been that noxious. Leadbeater, i believe, had g= ood ideas, but the problem is that he got too "far away" in some of them, and= also the controversial features that he taught masturbation to kids (In a time= that was too forbiden to even see women's feet) and the controversial testimon= ies that he got mix up with young kids (In a time when pedophilial instints w= ere "almost" the rule-remember Lewis Carroll) that i am not sure about them. = But let's not get this bigger, because always that Leadbeater is mentioned he= re, theosophists go to the fight between each other. Estrella P.S. Still believing that a lot of Leadbeater texts "the chakras" for exa= mple, are good and have a lot to contribute to Theosophy. even that if somebody= is not doing something well, that somebody it is still part of the absolute,= and still has his part to contribute to the great dance, that is The Eternal Caravan of Reincarnation (Santana dixit) :-) HI ALL!! ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:55:35 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: mix I do not know of any reports linking pagers with tumors. Personally I do not think that a relationship exists. mkr At 03:12 PM 6/28/1999 MDT, you wrote: >Ramadoss wrote: > >>CELLULAR PHONES AND BRAIN TUMORS? > >I don't know....but do you know if you can get tumors by using a pager?? >do you think so?? > >Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:07:25 +0200 (Romance Daylight Time) From: hesse600 Subject: Re: mix > Ramadoss wrote: > > >CELLULAR PHONES AND BRAIN TUMORS? > > I don't know....but do you know if you can get tumors by using a pager?? > do you think so?? Well, the chances of cancer due to those radio waves are proportionate to the amount of direct use. I mean: the time of transmission is what is damaging. A pager needs only a very short time to transmit its message: namely only a telephone-number, so the risk would be relatively small. In fact comparable to the risk you are under when watching tv or something. It seems to me that we cannot really avoid these radiowaves, so I am not personally worried very much. There is no use. I will get cancer, or I will not. Very simple. Katinka ---------------------- NHL Leeuwarden hesse600@tem.nhl.nl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:10:59 +0200 (Romance Daylight Time) From: hesse600 Subject: Re: Leadbeater > Estrella wrote: > P.S. Still believing that a lot of Leadbeater texts "the chakras" for example, > are good and have a lot to contribute to Theosophy. even that if somebody is > not doing something well, that somebody it is still part of the absolute, and > still has his part to contribute to the great dance, that is The Eternal > Caravan of Reincarnation (Santana dixit) > :-) HI ALL!! You are right. I also believe that Leadbeaters book on chakra's and the basic ones on clairvoyance are usefull. But he did go to far in some directions and I have not come accros any usefull spiritual advice. It seems to be mostly about facts, with him. Katinka ---------------------- NHL Leeuwarden hesse600@tem.nhl.nl