From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 09:26:45 -0800
From: Eldon B Tucker <eldon@theosophy.com>
Subject: The April THEOSOPHY WORLD Is Out

"Sources of THE SECRET DOCTRINE," by Joy Mills
"Regarding J. Krishnamurti," by G. de Purucker
"Karmic Ideas," by John R. Crocker
"Blavatsky Net Update," by Reed Carson
"What Are We Selling?" by Eldon Tucker
"What is the Purpose of Life?" by Mary L Fay
"Is the Theosophical Society an Addictive Organization?"
    by William Greer
"Biographical Essay on Colonel Conger," by Sarah Belle Dougherty
"Checking Our Ideas With Facts," by Daniel Caldwell
"Being Everything in Dreams," by Jerry Schueler
"The Need for Impersonality," by Kenneth Morris

THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email 
(about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to 
editor@theosophy.com. 

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:45:06 -0600
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Is TS an addictive organization?

***

There is an interesting article by William Greer in the Theosophy World
#34, April 1, 1999 (Part I), titled 

"IS THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AN ADDICTIVE ORGANIZATION?".

In it, Greer writes:

<paraindent><param>left</param>In the case of the Theosophical Society,
it seems quite probable

that its continued addictive behavior will result in two profound

changes in its membership: 1) It will lose those who would be

most likely to bring about meaningful and positive change. 2) It

will retain and even elevate those who will engage in further

addiction and eventual destruction.

The Theosophical Society appears to be at a crossroad in its

evolution and in its prosperity. It is faced with issues of

vital significance to its future. These are not new problems,

but they are growing and are demanding attention. If the

pathology proposed in this article rings true, if the

Theosophical is behaving in an addictive mode, will it -- like an

addict -- be given yet another ineffectual "fix," only to remain

mired in its Victorian stupor. Or will it throw off the

self-imposed fetters of obsolete custom and enter the 21st

century as a more responsive vehicle for transformative change --

an organization in touch with the times, not adamantly and

self-righteously behind them."

</paraindent>====================================

Greer, has very comprehensively addressed the problems that seem to face
TS.  I think anyone who is interested in theosophy and survival of  TS
should read it.

The issue of addressing  what can be done to energize and vitalize the TS
has been discussed several times in the theos maillists over the last
several years.

One of the questions that has been come up is:

<paraindent><param>left</param>What is the long term plan and targets and
the strategy and tactics? when I say long term, it can be 10 -20 years.
The organization does not seem to be growing. Has anyone seen any
blueprint? At least I have not.

</paraindent>mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:36:29 +0000
From: "mika perala" <mikap@dlc.fi>
Subject: Re: theos-l digest: March 30, 1999

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #801
> From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:23:07 -0500 (EST)
> X-Message-Number: 2
> 
> Mar 30th
> 
> Dear Mika:
> 
> No I do not think that Tson-ka-pa used our calendar.  But
> whatever calendar he used when translated into the calendar that
> we use puts this 25 years of effort into the "last quarter of the
> century" according to our Julian calendar.
> 

H.P.B. was then the ītranslatorī?

Mika

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 19:22:32 -0600
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Krishnamurti

In the Theosophy World #34, April 1, 1999, just released there is an
extract from a lecture by G de Purucker which was published in
THEOSOPHICAL FORUM, May 15, 1930, pages 14-17. Consists of

extracts from Lecture Number 39 on QUESTIONS WE ALL ASK, delivered in the
Temple of Peace, Point Loma, California, March 1930 titled REGARDING
JEDDU KRISHNAMURTI.

In the lecture Purucker says:

<paraindent><param>left,out,out</param>"I pity this Hindu youth, Mr.
Krishnamurti; for, however sincere

</paraindent><paraindent><param>left,out</param>he may be, to my mind he
shows a lack of reflective wisdom and a

lack of knowledge of essential human nature. In disbanding the

trusting hearts who look to him for comfort and help, as I

understand is the case, I cannot feel that he is following the

ideal embodied in The Theosophical Society, established by the

Masters of Wisdom as a nucleus of universal brotherhood, and as

an organization energized and with a desire to help mankind."

</paraindent>========================

MKR:

It is an interesting exercise to review Krishamurti's stand and the above
statement after almost seven decades. Since making the radical statement
"Truth is a Pathless Land" in 1929, Krishnamurti has spoken extensively
on various issues.

I think that instead of creating and nurturing a nucleus of universal
brotherhood, K has tried to expand it to make it beyond a nucleus. He has
spoken repeatedly how artificial lines demarking human beings based on
nationality, language, color, religious and other beliefs has caused
immense human suffering and has encouraged each human being to look at
them objectively and once understood, wanted each of us to do something
about it. He seems to have had effect on a lot of people. The full impact
may not be fully measured for another 100 years; of course most of us
would not be here then.

On the issue of Masters, Krishnamurti who grew up in Adyar and hence
clearly understood what has been done with the concept of Masters. I
think what he has tried to do is to indirectly show the folly of many who
have brought the Masters down to our level or our concept. 

I have seen many ardent members who are very sincere and loving and
helpful nature have replaced their favorite Gods with that of a Master.
They pray to them every morning for the well their being and pray to them
when they are in trouble hoping they will help to deal with our petty
problems and petty pains. Of course each one of us can do almost anything
we want in this free world.

Others view them as spiritual consultants -- consultants in real life
diagnose problems and suggest solutions and it is your job to accept and
implement with no guarantees of results. In this scenario, all one needs
is to listen to their msg and just blindly follow in the belief that it
would yield the desired results.

So I think that the approach K has taken is very  practical and is meant
to spur each one of us who is serious to think and act now for the well
being of the Humanity without either waiting to get an order from any
higher being now or wait till we hope to be reborn in the next root race
etc. or hold our actions worrying about our lack of knowledge -- occult
or otherwise

I think the K has done a lot to further the welfare of humanity by
touching the hearts of many, thus spurring them now to action directed to
human welfare.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 09:25:56 -0800
From: Eldon B Tucker <eldon@theosophy.com>
Subject: The April THEOSOPHY WORLD Is Out

The April issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's
contents are:

"Sources of THE SECRET DOCTRINE," by Joy Mills
"Regarding J. Krishnamurti," by G. de Purucker
"Karmic Ideas," by John R. Crocker
"Blavatsky Net Update," by Reed Carson
"What Are We Selling?" by Eldon Tucker
"What is the Purpose of Life?" by Mary L Fay
"Is the Theosophical Society an Addictive Organization?"
    by William Greer
"Biographical Essay on Colonel Conger," by Sarah Belle Dougherty
"Checking Our Ideas With Facts," by Daniel Caldwell
"Being Everything in Dreams," by Jerry Schueler
"The Need for Impersonality," by Kenneth Morris

THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email 
(about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to 
editor@theosophy.com. 

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:34:11 +0200
From: "Frank Reitemeyer" <ringding@blinx.de>
Subject: Mahatma M.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dear Tony,
some weekes ago several times you wrote that Mahatma M. is not proofed =
to have been HPBs Master, because she always refered to him as "Master" =
and never, in your words, as "my Master".Unfortunatly this is not quite =
true as is can bee seen from her words in BCW VIII 399:

>This is my Master...whom we call Mahatma Morya. I have his picture =
here.

Frank

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7D48.2A6482A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 5.00.0910.1309"' name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Tony,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>some weekes ago several times you wrote =
that=20
Mahatma M. is not proofed to have been HPBs Master, because she always =
refered=20
to him as &quot;Master&quot; and never, in your words, as &quot;my=20
Master&quot;.Unfortunatly this is not quite true as is can bee seen from =
her=20
words in BCW VIII 399:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;This is my Master...whom we call =
Mahatma Morya.=20
I have his picture here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE7D48.2A6482A0--

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 15:21:20 PST
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Did Mr Crosbie break the seventh clause of his solemn E.S pledge?

Did Mr Crosbie break the seventh clause of his solemn E.S pledge?

by David Green

In my previous article titled "Dzyan Esoteric School---Esoteric 
Instructions Issued on Whose Authority?", I wrote-----

"Robert Crosbie was an esoteric member during the lifetimes of Blavatsky 
& Judge.  Mr Crosbie had taken the same pledge not to reveal any of 
these esoteric papers."  

"After Mr Judge's death & at the formation of the ULT's DES, *by whose 
authority* were the instructions reissued with a new pledge of secrecy?   
Did Mr Crosbie violate his own original pledge by allowing the reissue 
of Blavatsky's esoteric instructions under a new pledge of secrecy?" 

"It is clear Blavatsky & Judge issued the instructions at the direction 
of the Masters.  Who gave Mr Crosbie the authority or right to violate 
his original pledge & reissue the instructions to *new students* under 
an oath of silence and secrecy?  Did Mr Crosbie believe that he was 
following in the esoteric footsteps of Blavatsky and Judge?"

Since above was posted, I've received six emails from infuriated ULT 
associates asking me how I could dare impugn the motivations & integrity 
of Mr Robert Crosbie.  I still urge that the questions asked are 
relevant questions to consider.  I'd like to point out to my ULT friends 
that Mr John Garrigues et al in one of the official ULT histories of 
Modern Theosophy did not hestitate to attack Mrs Annie Besant *on the 
very same issue*.  Read Mr Garrigues' words-----  

"In Mrs. Besant's 'Third Volume' [of Secret Doctrine, 1897] are 
incorporated the private papers originally issued by H.P.B. to the E.S., 
and in reprinting these Mrs. Besant . . . broke the seventh clause of 
her solemn pledge as a member of the Estoeric School. . . ." ULT's "The 
Theosophical Movement 1875-1925," pages 571-572.

My London ULT correspondent has emailed to me the wording of the seventh 
clause of the E.S. pledge which both Mrs Besant & Mr Crosbie took----

"I pledge myself to preserve inviolable secresy as regards the signs and 
pass-words of the Section and all confidential documents."

If Mrs Besant was guilty of what Mr Garrigues accused her, then is it 
not equally fair to at least pose the question-----

Did not Mr Robert Crosbie violate his original "solemn" E.S. pledge by 
reissuing through DES Blavatsky's esoteric instructions to *new 
students* under the same oath of silence and secrecy?  

If Mrs Besant is guilty of breaking her pledge, why not also Mr Crosbie? 
If any theosophical student can answer this question, give evidence & 
sound reasoning, & not hollow protestations. 

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:05:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
Subject: Some Theosphical concepts the think about == What is Truth ?

April 2nd

Here are some ideas that Theosophy offers.

I hope they will prove valuable to consider.

Dallas
================

	ON TRUTH

"...the Buddhists hold that nothing which is contradicted by
sound reason can be a true doctrine..."	-- Buddhist tenet  KEY TO
THEOSOPHY p. 199

"Wisdom and truth are synonymous terms, and that which is false
or pernicious cannot be wise."		HPB Articles II 34

"The nature of truth is universal ;  its possessors in any degree
will be found to be appliers of universality in thought, speech
and action."
FP 363

"Truth is known but to the few;  the rest, unwilling to withdraw
the veil from their own hearts, imagine it blinding the eyes of
their neighbor."
ISIS I 307.

"Realizing, as they do, the boundlessness of the absolute truth,
Theosophists repudiate all claim to infallibility.  The most
cherished pre-conceptions, the most "pious hope," the strongest
"mature passion," they sweep aside like dust from their path,
when their error is pointed out.  Their highest hope is to
approximate to the truth...Theosophists are ever ready to abandon
every idea that is proved erroneous upon strictly logical
deductions..."  --  HPB		Modern Panarion, pp. 193-4

"The present Theosophical movement [whose] doctrines belong
exclusively to no religion, are confined to no society or time.
They are the birthright of every human soul...Those who have
imagined Theosophy to be a new religion have hunted in vain for
its creed and its ritual.  Its creed is Loyalty to Truth and its
ritual 'To honor every truth by use...[It] was organized on...the
essential Brotherhood of Man."		KEY p. 18

"Humanity is a great Brotherhood by virtue of the sameness of the
material from which it is formed physically and morally.  Unless
however, it becomes a Brotherhood also intellectually, it is no
better than a superior genus of animals."  ---HPB Theos. Glossary
p. 146

"The Beacon-light of Truth is Nature without the veil of the
senses.  It can be reached only when the adept has become
absolute master of his personal self, able to control all his
physical and psychic senses by the aid of his "seventh sense,"
through which he is gifted also with the true wisdom of the
gods-Theosophia."
--HPB  Le Phare de l'Inconnu  HPB Articles I 424

	Truth and Reality

"All of you who waver on the golden threshold of Truth, the only
Truth, still open to you, since all the others have failed, one
after the other-look at the Great Reality now offering itself to
you straight in the face...This thought...is identical with what
was the keynote and the keystone of every century, especially the
last one:  "absolute Freedom of Human thought."		HPB Articles I
405-6

"...Absolute Truth is the eternal Reality which survives all
transient phenomena...Language belongs to the world of
relativity, while Truth is the Absolute Reality.  It is therefore
vain to suppose that any language, however ancient or sublime,
can express Absolute Truth.  The latter exists in the world of
ideas, and the ideal can be perceived by the sense belonging to
that world...no number of words can convey an idea to one who is
incapable of perceiving it.  Every one of us has within him the
latent capacity or sense dormant in us, which can take cognizance
of Abstract Truth, although...the assimilation of our intellect
with that higher sense, may vary in different persons, according
to circumstances, education and discipline.  That higher sense
which is the potential capacity of every human being is in
eternal contact with Reality..."	--DKM	  T A & N  p. 49

"There is, and can be, but one absolute truth in Kosmos.
[and]...if it is absolute it must also be omnipresent and
universal;  and that in such case, it must be underlying every
word-religion-the product of the thought and knowledge of
numberless generations of thinking men...Our object is not to
destroy any religion but rather to help to filter each, thus
ridding them of their respective impurities."     --HPB Articles,
I p. 281

"If one imagines that one is going to get a satisfactory picture
of the constitution of the Universe from the S.D. one will get
only confusion from its study.  It is not meant to give any such
final verdict on existence, but to lead towards the truth."	--
HPB	T A & N p. 272

	Reaching for the TRUTH -- Wisdom

"True philosophy and divine truth are convertible terms."  A
religion which dreads the light cannot be a religion based on
either truth or philosophy-hence, it must be false."	ISIS II p.
121

"Mental evolution progresses pari passu with physical evolution,
and both advance towards the One Truth,-- which is the heart of
the system of Humanity, as evolution is its blood...Let every man
inclined to go on find his ideal,-- a star before him to guide.
Let him follow it without ever deviating from his path;  and he
is almost certain to reach the Beacon-light of life-the
Truth."	--HPB Articles I 436-7

"The Infinite cannot be known to our reason, which can only
distinguish and define; -- but we can always conceive the
abstract idea thereof, thanks to that faculty higher than our
reason - intuition, or the spiritual instinct...Only the great
initiates, who have the rare power of throwing themselves into
the state of Samadhi... ecstasy ...a state in which one ceases to
be the conditioned and personal "I," and becomes one with the
All, -- only those can boast of having been in contact with the
infinite;  but no more than other mortals can they describe that
state in words."
--HPB Articles,  I  432-3.

"Man has to know himself, i.e., acquire the inner perceptions
which never deceive, before he can master any absolute truth.
Absolute truth is the symbol of Eternity,  and no finite mind can
ever grasp the eternal, hence no truth in its fullness can ever
dawn upon it.  To reach the state during which man sees and
senses it, we have to paralyze the senses of the external man of
clay.  This is a difficult task...But to approach even
terrestrial truths requires, first of all, love of truth for its
own sake, for otherwise no recognition of it will follow...the
fair heavenly maiden descends only on a (to her) congenial
soil-the soil of an impartial, unprejudiced mind, illuminated by
pure Spiritual Consciousness..."
	HPB Articles I p. 4

"...our Society may be truly called the "Republic of
Conscience."...All of us must work for the liberation of human
thought, for the elimination of selfish and sectarian
superstitions, and for the discovery of all the truths that are
within the reach of the human mind."
	The New Cycle - HPB Articles I p. 402

"Theosophy is divine knowledge, and knowledge is truth, every
true fact, every sincere word are thus part and parcel of
Theosophy. Theosophy allows a hearing and a fair chance to all.
It deems no views-if sincere-entirely destitute of truth.  It
respects thinking man, to whatever class of thought they may
belong."  -- HPB	HPB Articles I pp. 8-9

"Theosophy is the shoreless ocean of universal truth, love and
wisdom."  HPB  Key to Theosophy, p. 56

"...the first point of Wisdom is to discern that which is false,
and the second, to know that which is true...Wisdom is, at best,
an elastic word...thus we find "Wisdom" as the characteristic of
both divine inspiration and also the terrestrial cunning and
craft...as meaning the Secret Knowledge of the Esoteric Sciences,
and also blind faith:  the "fear of the Lord..."	HPB  "The Dual
Aspect of Wisdom"  --- HPB	HPB Articles II 30

"...divine Wisdom being diffused throughout the infinite
Universe, and our impersonal Higher Self being an integral part
of it, the atmic light of the latter can be centered only in that
which though eternal is still individualized-i.e., the noetic
Principle, the manifested God within each rational being, or our
Higher Manas at one with Buddhi.
"The Dual Aspect of Wisdom"  ---HPB Articles II p. 31

	The Practice

"In every age there have been Sages who had mastered the absolute
and yet could teach but relative truths...every one of us has to
find that (to him) final knowledge in himself...no two minds can
be absolutely alike, each has to receive the supreme illumination
through itself, according to its capacity, and from no human
light.  The greatest adept living can reveal of the Universal
Truth only so much as the mind he is impressing it upon can
assimilate, and no more...Polarity is universal, but the
polariser lies in our own consciousness.  In proportion as our
consciousness is elevated towards truth, so do we men assimilate
it more or less absolutely...Still each of us can relatively
reach the Sun of Truth even on this earth, and assimilate its
warmest and most direct rays, however differentiated they may
become...On the plane of spirituality, to reach the Sun of Truth
we must work in dead earnest for the development of our higher
nature."
--- HPB  "What is Truth ?"	HPB Articles  I  p. 2

"No one is so busy or so poor that he cannot be inspired by a
noble ideal to follow...It is true that the first requisites for
getting there are absolute unselfishness and unlimited devotion
to the interests of others, and complete indifference as to the
world and its opinions.  To take the first step on this ideal
path requires a perfectly pure motive; no frivolous thought must
be allowed to divert our eyes from the goal;  no hesitation, no
doubt must fetter our feet...As to our inner life, let us
concentrate all our attention on our chosen Ideal, and let us
ever book beyond ...Those capable of such an effort are true
Theosophists."	--
	HPB Articles I, p. 408

"...there are two kinds of even "terrestrial" wisdom on our globe
of mud-the real and the apparent...So strong is human
selfishness, that whenever there is the smallest personal
interest at stake, there men become deaf and blind to the truth,
as often consciously as not...There was a time when the
acquirement of Divine Wisdom (Sapienta) required the sacrifice
and devotion of a man's whole life.

It depended on such things as the purity of the candidate's
motives, on his fearlessness and independence of spirit...no
"wisdom from above" descends on any one save on the sine qua non
condition of leaving at the threshold of the Occult every atom of
selfishness, or desire for personal ends and benefit...Nature
gives up her innermost secrets and imparts true wisdom only to
him who seeks truth for its own sake, and who craves knowledge in
order to confer benefits on others, not on his own unimportant
personality."	"The Dual Aspect of Wisdom"  	HPB Articles II 32-3

"Selfishness, the first-born of Ignorance, and the fruit of the
teaching which asserts that for each newly-born infant a new soul
separate and distinct from the Universal Soul, is "created"-this
Selfishness is the impassable wall between the personal Self and
Truth.  It is the prolific mother of all human
vices...Selfishness kills every noble impulse in our natures..."
HPB Articles I p. 5-6.

"...ancient truths of the Wisdom Religion...{when tested] in the
use of them they prove themselves true.  And truth...always
explains.  When we have the explanation, we have the truth.

Each has to make his own verifications of the truth, but the fact
remains that there is truth, and it has always existed.

It has come to us from Beings higher than we, because they turned
their faces in the right direction and pursued the course pointed
out to them as leading to spiritual, divine perfection.  They
know all that has been known.  They know us, although we may not
know them.  They know our needs, although we may be densely
ignorant of them.  They come again and again to present the
truths of life to man, hoping that some echo may be aroused in
his soul so that he, too, shall arrive at a realizations of Self,
or spirit-which is Knowledge."  FP, pp. 308-9

"Theosophy is Truth and as such can have no alliance with any
form of error and remain Truth.  Compromise with diluted
Theosophy is not tolerance, is not brotherhood."	-- Theos.
Movement Mag. Vol. 30, July 1960.

	Fundamental Ideas -- Truths

"It is worse than useless going to those whom we imagine to be
advanced students and asking them to give us an "interpretation"
of the S.D.  They cannot do it.  If they try, all they give are
cut and dried exoteric renderings which do not remotely resemble
the Truth.  To accept such interpretations means anchoring
ourselves to fixed ideas, whereas Truth lies beyond any ideas we
can formulate or express.  Exoteric interpretations...[can be]
taken as pointers for beginners, and are not accepted by them as
anything more...

	Come to the SD without any hope of getting the final Truth of
existence from it, or with any idea other than seeing how far it
may lead towards the Truth...

"...let the mind hold fast, as a basis of its ideation to the
following ideas:

1. The fundamental unity of all existence...

Fundamentally, there Is ONE BEING.

This has two poles, positive and negative.  The positive is
Spirit, or consciousness.  The negative is substance, the subject
of consciousness.

This Being is the ABSOLUTE in its primary manifestation.  Being
absolute, there is nothing outside of it.  It is ALL BEING.

It is indivisible, else it would not be absolute.  If a portion
could be separated, that remaining could not be absolute, because
there would at once arise the question of comparison between it
and the separated part.  Comparison is incompatible with any idea
of absoluteness.  Therefore it is clear that this fundamental One
Existence, or absolute Being, must be the Reality in every form
that is...

The Atom, the Man, the God are each separately, as well as
collectively, Absolute Being in their last analysis, that is in
their individuality.  It is this idea that must be held always in
the background of the mind to form the basis for every conception
that arises from study of the SD.  The moment one lets it
go...the idea of separation supervenes, and the study loses its
value."

2.	There is no dead matter.  Every last atom is alive...since
every atom is itself fundamentally Absolute Being...every atom of
substance, no matter of what plane...[is] a life.

3.	Man is the microcosm...all the Hierarchies of the Heavens
exist within him.  But in truth there is neither Macrocosm nor
Microcosm but One Existence.

4.	"As is the inner, so is the outer;  as is the great, so is the
small;  as it is above, so it is below;  there is but One Life
and Law:  and he that worketh it is One.  Nothing is inner,
nothing is outer;  nothing is great, nothing is small;  nothing
is high, nothing is low, in the Divine Economy."	--HPB   T. A. &
N p. 272-3

"Outside a certain highly spiritual and elevated state of mind,
during which Man is at one with the Universal Mind-he can get
nought on earth but relative truth, or truths, from whatsoever
philosophy or religion...Meanwhile every one can sit near that
well-the name of which is Knowledge-and gaze into its depths in
the hope of seeing Truth's fair image reflected at least, on the
dark waters...Concerning the deeper spiritual...beliefs, no true
Theosophist ought to degrade these by subjecting them to public
discussion, but ought rather to treasure and hide them deep
within the sanctuary of his innermost soul...the "Holy of
Holies," the temple of the impersonal divine Ego, or the
indwelling Self.  For, while every fact outside its perception
can...be at best, only a relative truth. A ray from the absolute
truth can reflect itself only in the pure mirror of its own
flame-our highest Spiritual Consciousness.  And how can the
darkness (of illusion) comprehend the Light that shineth in it ?"
HPB Articles, I 10-11.

"As to the process of spiritual development, Theosophy teaches:

First. That the essence of the process lies in the securing of
supremacy, to the highest, the spiritual, element of man's
nature.

Second. That this is attained along four lines, among others,

[a] The entire eradication of selfishness in all forms, and the
cultivation of broad, generous sympathy in, and effort for the
good of others.

(b) The absolute cultivation of the inner, spiritual man by
meditation, by reaching to and communion with the Divine, and by
exercise of the kind described by Patanjali, i. e., incessant
striving to an ideal end.

(c) The control of fleshly appetites and desires, all lower,
material interests being deliberately subordinated to the behests
of the spirit.

(d) The careful performance of every duty belonging to one's
station in life, with-out desire for reward, leaving results for
Divine law.

Third. That while the above is incumbent on and practicable by
all religiously disposed men, a yet higher plane of spiritual
attainment is conditioned upon a specific course of training,
physical, intellectual and spiritual, by which the internal
faculties are first aroused and then developed.

Fourth. That an extension of this process is reached in
Adeptship, Mahatmaship, or the states of Rishis, Sages and Dhyan
Chohans, which are all exalted stages, attained by laborious
self-discipline and hardship, protracted through possibly many
incarnations, and with many degrees of initiation and preferment,
beyond which are yet other stages ever approaching the Divine.

As to the rationale of spiritual development it asserts:

First. That the process takes place entirely within the
individual himself, the motive, the effort, and the result
proceeding from his own inner nature, along the lines of
self-evolution.

Second. That, however personal and interior, this process is not
unaided, being possible, in fact, only through close communion
with the supreme source of all strength.

As to the degree of advancement in incarnations it holds:

First. That even a mere intellectual acquaintance with Theosophic
truth has great value in fit-ting the individual for a step
upwards in his next earth-life, as it gives an impulse in that
direction.

Second. That still more is gained by a career of duty, piety and
beneficence.

Third. That a still greater advance is attained by the attentive
and devoted use of the means to spiritual culture heretofore
stated.

Fourth. That every race and individual of it reaches in evolution
a period known as "the moment of choice," when they decide for
themselves their future destiny by a deliberate and conscious
choice between eternal life and death, and that this right of
choice is the peculiar appanage of the free soul. It cannot be
exercised until the man has realized the soul within him, and
until that soul has attained some measure of self-conscious-ness
in the body. The moment of choice is not a fixed period of time;
it is made up of all moments. It cannot come unless all the
previous lives have led up to it. For the race as a whole it has
not yet come. Any individual can hasten the advent of this period
for himself under the previously stated law of the ripening of
Karma."	WQJ -
AN EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY, p. 25-6.

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 23:09:01 -0600
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Kosov situation

In 1880s, there was a famous Maha Chohan letter from one of the Adepts
which HPB onwards, every leader of every TS organization has considered to
be the charter of TS. In it, the issue of cruelty and suffering caused by
human beings to other human beings was mentioned.

Looking at the moving pictures on TV of the refugees from Kosov, makes one
very sad that in this day and age this kind of thing can happen. Also I saw
some statistics of 2 million people being killed in African civil
disturbance, the pictures of which we have not seen. Add to this the
bombing that goes on in the name of peace and protection of people of Kosov.

One wonders if the human nature has changed in the last 100 years in spite
of all the technological advances. Can we say we are more civilized today
than we were 100 years ago.

The refugee problem, if any of the past experiences are valid, is going to
be there for several scores of years probably unresolved, like the refugee
problem of Palestinians.

After the exodus of refugees, the US has sent packaged food for 500,000
meals, which is commendable but is not a long term solution. If history is
any indication, when such exodus takes place due to interference of other
countries, ultimately these refugees end up in the countries which are one
way or other causing it.

What is it that you and me can do, however little it may be in this matter.
Of course the elected politicians are not going to listen to any common
sense solutions.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:16:04 +0100 (BST)
From: alpha@dircon.co.uk
Subject: Re: theos-l digest: April 02, 1999

Dear Frank
Thanks for your message, and for turning that quote up.  In fact it was just
the one mail in which it was mentioned about Master M.
I did not mean to imply that M was not HPBs Master, as clearly he was.  But
what I did mean to convey, was that HPB never referred to him as "my
Master", but rather as "Master."  
The article you refer to is prefaced with the note: "[This is an account
written by Charles Johnston concerning his conversation with H.P.B. when he
met her for the first time in London, in the Spring of 1887, soon after her
arrival from Ostende.  Even though this text is not taken from H.P.B.'s own
pen, it is published here as it contains a great many points of teaching,
and bears obvious marks of authenticity. - *Compiler*.]"

Because of the way in which the narrative is written, it is very difficult
to be certain that H.P.B. did actually say "my Master," as it is an account
of a conversation Charles Johnston had with H.P.B.  I think you will agree
that alterations are made to what H.P.B. actually wrote.  This makes it even
more uncertain when someone is reporting what she said.  

Tony

>Dear Tony,
>some weekes ago several times you wrote that Mahatma M. is not proofed =
>to have been HPBs Master, because she always refered to him as "Master" =
>and never, in your words, as "my Master".Unfortunatly this is not quite =
>true as is can bee seen from her words in BCW VIII 399:
>
>>This is my Master...whom we call Mahatma Morya. I have his picture =
>here.
>
>Frank
>

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 14:19:22 PDT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: New Web site on W Q Judge:  1895 Letter on Messages from dead Madame Blavatsky

I'm beginning new web site that will feature various documents 
concerning Mr W Judge, messages from dead Blavatsky, material on Mrs 
Tingley, Mrs Tingley giving messages from dead Judge, and many other 
relevant documents.  Some never published previously.  This will become 
WWW archives.  If students have other documents they want posted on my 
web site, email me material.

The first document is at 
http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/judge1.htm

"William Q Judge's 1895 Letter on Messages from the dead Madame 
Blavatsky"

More to come.

David Green

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 16:08:26 PDT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: New Web Site on Robert Crosbie, Founder of the United Lodge of Theosophists

New Web Site on Robert Crosbie, Founder of the United Lodge of 
Theosophists

A CRITICAL LOOK at the claims of Robert Crosbie and the United Lodge of 
Theosophists

Go to the URL address---

http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/Links.html

Here is one of the ULT's claims---

". . . Masters' Messengers to the world, the Transmitters of 
theWisdom-Religion. Among These, and in our own time and country:H.P. 
Blavatsky, William Q. Judge, and Robert Crosbie. . . " Theosophy 
magazine, November 1929

More material will be posted on a semi-weekly basis to this growing web 
site on the ULT and its founder.

David Green

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 23:26:53 PDT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: NEW: Judge's Letter to Mrs. Tingley on Communications from discarnate Blavatsky

A new web page has been posted on the WWW:

"W.Q. Judge's Letter to Mrs. Katherine Tingley on Communications from 
the discarnate Madame Blavatsky"

http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/tingley.htm

Much more to come in the weeks ahead.

David Green

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 14:19:15 PDT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Mrs. Katherine Tingley Channels the Recently Deceased William Q. Judge

Another new web page has been posted on the Internet:

"Mrs. Katherine Tingley Channels the Recently Deceased William Q. 
Judge"

http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/channels.htm

Much more to come in the weeks ahead. Including never before published 
material.

Comments are welcomed.  Also anyone in possession of other related 
material who is willing to have it published on my web site, contact 
me with details.

David Green

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 10:27:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
Subject: RE: RE: Theos-World Responses to Leon

April 10th

But for what purpose should we debate over "finalities" such as
"Enlightenment ?"  Do we not wake up each morning to a "new day
?"  Is that not an fresh enlightenment as the sun rises over a
new horizon for us ?

Are not definitions forever deceptive in themselves ?  There are
always variations.

Of what use is it to adopt one view and pit it against others.
Buddhism, of all the systems that are exoteric is perhaps the one
that is the most inclusive and encouraging of individual progress
and self-reform.

In every age that we may review there have been successes/
Gautama the Buddha has been recognized as the latest success in a
long line of Great Souls -- Buddhas who have mastered
"all-Knowingness" in our terms and concepts of limit.  But our
terms are far from "universal."

As a culmination of many lives of work and purification, just
like Gautama the Buddha did, there is always a final "life-time"
in which ENLIGHTENMENT occurs.  But, it is the result of all the
lives that went before it. [ see the JATAKA TALES ]

Consider the Theosophical picture of evolution:  The ONE MONAD
(as also that of any one of its innumerable "rays" ) GYRATES OVER
AN INCREDIBLE PERIOD OF TIME  in the evolutionary process, during
which it experiences all those aspects of differentiation,
physical, psychic and intellectual (or "spiritual") which that
differentiation provides, and finally achieves that
"ALL-KNOWINGNESS" which is the apotheosis of WISDOM -- or actual
BUDDHA-HOOD for that particular "school."

It is a "finality" which is not just a "graduation or a
commencement," but an achievement in this type and kind of matter
existence.  From there on the work rebegins and proceeds in
dimensions which we still have to gain some cognizance of --
although we have some anticipatory suspicions of the enormity of
the task that stretches out through the "infinity of time" that
lies always before us all.

"As we advance, the Goal recedes."  This is the one expression of
ever-living that we can all treasure.  Anyone who labors to
achieve a "resting-place or time" is only deluding themselves
into a "finality trap."  Eternity and immortality of the Egoic
Monad that we all are, implies continued effort and work, not
taking a rest -- and of what true, intrinsic value would such a
"rest" be ?  Why do we take rest-periods even now during our
daily work, sleep at night, rest on week-ends ?  It is change of
activity, not complete and utter quiescence !  How can anyone
view:  "DOING NOTHING" AS A FAVOR TO BE CONFERRED FOR WISDOM?

How is it possible, in dealing with these metaphysical concepts,
these ultimates, to put our present (embodied mind) weak and
limited concepts of "static finality on them ?  It merely show
our own limitations in thought, our adherence to 'tamasic'
materiality.

Fortunately there are three "gunas" or qualities from which
manifested Nature is derived:  'sattva' -- truth, spiritual
wisdom, purity;  'rajas' -- activity, desire, progress, work;
and, 'tamas' -- inertia, ignorance, materiality, and spiritual
darkness.  These three are always equipoised in manifestation,
and are viewed uniformly by the 4th factor the IMPERISHABLE
SPIRIT which is in the body.  The whole of the BHAGAVAD GITA, as
well as,  the whole Buddhistic philosophy (regardless of any of
its particular schools) is a commentary on these three aspects of
Nature in conjoined evolution.  The ONE SPIRIT illuminates
everybody BY REASON OF ITS WISDOM AND PURITY.  Hence we have
another reason for considering Brotherhood, Compassion, and well
regulated activity.

I hope this is of some help

Dallas

=======================

              Dallas TenBroeck
               dalval@nwc.net

-----Original Message-----
> From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
> [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of
> LeonMaurer@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 2:27 AM
> To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
> Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Responses to Leon

Dear Jerry,

>>...your original arguments to defend the concept of
enlightenment in
>> one lifetime, regardless of the practices of previous
lifetimes, as
>> being the "only" possibility, and that all other views are
wrong-...
>>
> Dear Leon, if you want to denigrate what I say, that is your
> right, but please repeat what I said properly. I never said
> anything like "regardless of the practices of previous
lifetimes" which
> would be impossible.

In my dictionary the word denigrate means. "To attack the
character or
reputation of; speak ill of; defame or, to disparage; belittle."
What kind
of paranoia is it that assumes my statement disagreeing with what
I thought
you said or implied, is an attack on you personally?  Must you
always turn
every disagreement with your self acknowledged "wild" statements
of supposed
facts into a personal attack on your character?  Or, is that just
a
projection of your own methods of argument?

Actually, I still maintain your concept of "enlightenment in one
lifetime" is
dead wrong...  Since, if enlightenment takes "practices of
previous
lifetimes", as you now apparently admit, then, it's not really
"enlightenment
in ONE lifetime", is it?

LHM

-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk --
theos-talk@theosophy.com

Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and
teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting
of
"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com.

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:36:16 PDT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Messages to W.Q. Judge from the dead Mme. Blavatsky Praise Katherine Tingley

Another new web page has been posted on the Internet:

"Messages to W.Q. Judge from the dead Mme. Blavatsky Praise Katherine 
Tingley."

http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/thesign.htm

Much more to come in the weeks ahead. Including never before published 
material.

Comments are welcomed.  Also anyone in possession of other related 
material who is willing to have it published on my web site, contact 
me with details.

David Green

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:06:01 PDT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Dallas Tenbroeck, An Open Letter to

Dear Mr Tenbroeck----

On theos---talk forum, I've read fairly constant stream of your 
postings "advertising" United Lodge of Theosophists.  In your "pitch" 
you've made number of questionable statements.  In one posting, Mr 
Tenbroeck, you wrote that the Thesophical Societies (Pasadena & Adyar) 
engage in politics but the U.L.T. doesn't.  As far as I can determine, 
this is a patently false statement.  What organization or society or 
association consisting of human beings doesn't have its own share of 
"politics"?  I've received various accounts & documents showing that 
United Lodge of Theosophists has had its share of "politics".  For 
example, in the 1930s when Mrs Crosbie, the widow of the founder & a 
group of associates left the Los Angeles U.L.T.---a court battle 
ensued.  Another example is the politics, bickering, & power struggles 
during the time of Grace Clough.  Mr Victor Endersby, a U.L.T. 
associate & one-time writer for "Theosophy" magazine, recounted some 
of the internal struggles & politics he was involved in within the Los 
Angeles U.L.T.(see citations in Dr Bruce Campbell's book on the 
history of theosophical movement).

Why do you whitewash all of this and maintain that the U.L.T. is 
different (& better???) than other Theosophical organizations?  You 
may be quite sincere in what you write; but such unrealistic & 
unfounded statements should be questioned by any thinking theosophist.

Basically I think you're being very unfair to the other theosophical 
groups when you make such statements.  Are you willing to amend or 
retract this unfounded statement of yours?

David Green

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:31:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
Subject: The Preservation of Original Theosophy == the Function and Purpose of the ULT.

	April 11th 1999

I have thought it appropriate at this time to speak of the United
Lodge of Theosophists and again to offer for consideration the
basis on which it was established and on which it works.

A tree is known by its fruit.  The consideration and judgment is
always to be rendered by the independent and the free evaluation
of those who do the judging.

This is offered on  my own responsibility as an independent
associate of the ULT.

		ULT - PRESERVING PURE THEOSOPHY
			____________________

	If we consider what H.P.Blavatsky has said about Theosophy we
find  she calls it the "science of psychology." ( HPB ART I 46,
II 274-5).   "It cultivates all sciences, cultures and arts."
 HPB ART I 46, 63-9).  "It contains all human sects."( HPB ART I
53-4).  "It teaches mutual development, and good deeds."  ( HPB
ART I 235, 242-3).  "It provides a logical basis for an elevated
morality." ( HPB ART I 331, III 92).  "It demonstrates that
justice reigns in Nature." ( HPB ART I 333, III 92 ).   "It
requires intuition, and brings about mental changes." ( HPB ART I
433).   "It satisfies the scientific intellect and the
metaphysical spirit." ( HPB ART I 442-3, I 278).   "It is the
philosophy and the Law of the future."  ( HPB ART I 422.  "It can
produce social and religious reforms." ( HPB ART I 436, III 65).
[ ULT edition of HPB ARTICLES in 3 Volumes. ]

	The position that the United Lodge of Theosophists assumes is
that "Theosophy" is all that which agrees with what HPB and the
Masters have promulgated.  We are fortunate in this era that this
is available to us in writing as originally recorded.  It further
avers that this will be found consistent with logic and common
sense when tested independently, and that the system is coherent
and consistent from one end to the other.  This testing and
examining is our duty.  Our understanding of Theosophy grows as
we work to do this.  In fact one might call Theosophy a statement
of the ecological unity of Nature, now that ecology is realized
to be important.

	If in ULT, the name of W.Q.Judge is found coupled with that of
H.P.B., it is because it has been found that his writings are
consistent with what she recorded.  This can be proved by any
student who has acquainted himself with HPB's Theosophy, and
compared it with the writings of Mr. Judge.  This particular
touchstone is to be applied to all writings called
"theosophical,"  and in the publishing of any material in the ULT
magazines:  THEOSOPHY (Los Angeles), or THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT
(Bombay).

	Mr. Judge offers in his article THE PROMULGATION OF THEOSOPHY,
(JUDGE ARTICLES, Vol., I  73-6, ULT), the view that we are we are
all members of a Brotherhood of Humanity - an actual spirit-soul
brotherhood, and this extends and includes every being in the
Universe, as they are all held to be equally immortal and have
the same origins.  The Universe is ONE.

	All is spirit and matter harmonizing at every point.  The more
experienced assist the lesser in their progress and evolution.
Each is, however, an independent, immortal, eternally progressing
LIFE, one with the WHOLE at all times and continuously in touch
with all other beings by the force of its continued living and
decision making.  It is the development of consciousness that
makes for the differences we see in various beings.

	Mr. Judge states that we are will coming back together under the
universal and impersonal law of Karma.  Its method of operation
is, for us, the cycle of reincarnation.  Therefore, any work we
do is for our joint future: for ourself and for ALL--the whole of
Nature-Universe.

	Becoming intellectually aware of these ideas and to make further
progress, we need to choose individually to make heart (moral and
ethical) applications.  That is our special work, as we are
independently self-conscious and this power shows itself as our
innate power to choose.

	To remind one another of the great truths of evolution, and of
the goal of soul progress is our responsibility.  If we can see
and grasp this, then our change in orientation, our adoption of
brotherhood as a fundamental principle, has to be put into
action.  It raises a signal that attracts the attention of those
Elder Brothers of ours, who have advanced of us on the PATH.
They take notice of our more compassionate decisions and desire
to consciously cooperate with Nature.  They, in their turn,
extend help to us when our Kama permits, and when we need it.

	On our part, if we see we are unified, we will need to
impersonalize and purify our motives.  We will treat all persons
and things as our co-eternals, hence: brothers - young, or older.
Theosophy states that the sole "key" to the secrets of occultism
and understanding the secret workings of Nature, is an ethical
one.  HPB wrote letters to the American Theosophists meeting in
Annual Convention in 1889 and 1890, and there she stressed the
fact that "the Ethics of Theosophy are even more necessary to
mankind that the scientific aspects of the psychic facts of
nature and man."  By making "Theosophy a vital factor in their
[our] lives."  She indicated a discipline of study (to learn what
Theosophy is), and practice. A few moments later she observed:
.."ALTRUISM"...is the keynote of Theosophy and the cure for all
ills;  this it is which the real Founders of the Theosophical
Society promote as its first object--UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD."

	We cannot pretend that we are in nature and character something
which we are not.  We carry in our atmosphere the (invisible to
us) record of our deeds and moral condition.  The Adepts see this
condition.

	Any progress we make in self-discipline has to be self-imposed.
We would have no right to enforce this, or demand that another
comply with, or even emulate our example.  This leads to
understanding that the only successful way of group action, is by
mutual consultation, by consensus, and by volunteering to serve
in all relating to our joint work of preservation and of
promulgation--it being understood that all have, to some degree,
satisfied themselves of the "common belief" which Mr. Judge
speaks of at the bottom of p. 75 in the article first referred to
above.

	Applying this to the ULT:  We may see why its DECLARATION is
carefully framed so as to make its policy and application
impersonal; and, base it on principles that are universal.  There
is no supervision of the associates, nor are there any fees, dues
or demands made on their time and interest.

	Mr. Judge wrote that he hoped for "500" theosophists who might
"sweep the whole world" with their thoughts, and that their quiet
and unobtrusive "deeds" might bear their mark on the present era,
for the benefit of those ages that are to come, since they would
be of assistance to the great Cause of the Masters: human
enlightenment, the reduction of poverty and sorrow,  for the
masses, the promotion of individual freedom of choice based on
knowledge, and an awakening perception of the "God" within each
one.

	In the August 1896 issue of LUCIFER there was published a letter
written by the "Great Master".  It had been originally sent in
1881 and will be found reprinted as the first letter in LETTERS
FROM THE MASTERS OF WISDOM, 1st Series, 1919, Theosophical
Publishing House, Adyar.  In this it is stated:  "...The
Theosophical Society was chosen as the cornerstone, the
foundation of the future religions of humanity. [And later on the
Maha Chohan adds:]...perish rather the Theosophical Society with
both its hapless Founders, than that we should permit it to
become no better than an academy of magic, and a hall of
Occultism !...to represent the embodiment of selfishness, the
refuge of the few, with no thought in them for the many, is a
strange idea my brothers ! ..."

	In the 2nd volume of ISIS UNVEILED ( pp. 165-250) HPB wrote of
the struggles, turmoil, confusions, parallel, and different views
of many persons and sects that were in existence in the few
decades around, and following the era of Jesus.  Have not the
past 116 years of the modern Theosophical Movement, been full of
similar aches and pains, and pullings and pushings, arrivals and
departures ?

	The spirit moving in the ULT-is the fact that the associates'
sole devotion is directed to the promulgation, practice and
preservation of pure THEOSOPHY.  This includes the nurturing of
those questing souls, who, coming from their own lines of past
endeavor, now, in this life, dedicate themselves to learning,
helping and supporting THEOSOPHY in the world.

	There may be some who would object to the idea that there are
those "professors" (Masters, Elder Brothers, Sages...) of the
university of Life -- which we now name Theosophy -- but, they
ought to take into account that in all schools (and in the
experience of all of us) there are always to be found those who
have worked before we have, and who are in advance of our stage.
This has never deterred true students from their determination:
to know for themselves, and to afford other inquirers the same
opportunity.

	ULT does not exist so that vast "numbers" will flock to its
halls.  It is content with providing impersonally:  1.  the basic
ideas for a framework that can be used by
independent/interdependent students of Theosophy who might desire
to associate for Theosophical work.  2.  It has determined to
keep in print the basic literature of modern Theosophy in the
pure form of the original rendering by HPB of the Wisdom-Religion
as agent, acting on behalf of the Great Lodge of the Masters of
Wisdom, and of such others (like W.Q.Judge) who have proved to be
entirely "in line" with that original rendering.

  	It exists for the sole purpose of ensuring this purity of
transmission for those who, now, and in the future, determine to
contact the living mind of HPB and of the Masters.  It endeavors
to provide centers for inquirers and students to meet and there
pursue the study, questioning, and promulgation of those original
Theosophical teachings which are considered to be the precious
heritage of mankind.

	It interferes with no man's sincere efforts, and urges that they
be aligned with that original program of the Masters.

	ULT recognizes that this will happen slowly, and that the
reawakening of minds to these principles of independence and
impersonality cemented by brotherhood, which are the germ of
great ideas for daily use, first by those students, then later by
the masses of men, will take its time.  It therefore encourages
individual study and practical experiment in and on one's own
self-consciousness of the verities that it conveys -- which are
the property of ALL.

	Since all wisdom comes from within each of us, it is suggested
that HPB's THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY should be thoroughly mastered as
a preliminary, and that the "Three Fundamental Propositions of
Theosophy ( SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. I, p. 14 - 17) be made part of
the student's ever-ready mental furniture.

	In no way does ULT encourage "psychism," or the pursuit of the
marvelous and the unusual, without having earlier acquired a
thorough understanding of the principles that underlie those
phenomena.  Without that knowledge these may be considered to be
traps for the unwary, or amusements for the idle.  All the
secret, and presently invisible aspects, of Nature are well known
in outline to those who carefully study what HPB and the Masters
have to say, and who pay heed to the warnings and cautions issued
from the beginning by HPB in ISIS UNVEILED and elsewhere in her
and by Mr. Judge in their articles.

	ULT does encourage all students to acquire a familiarity with
the basic laws of the invisible Universe of energy and power, and
their present practical usage in individual soul cultivation.

	To summarize:--

1.  We, and all other beings, from atoms through mankind to
the "stars." are, each one,  eternal, immortal beings.  We do not
"die" although our worn out "bodies" are discarded by the process
we name "death."  Our 	daily period of sleep is in short,
analogous to what we call "death."

2.	Every being is conscious to some degree.  Mankind is
self-conscious.  Those who advance beyond the man stage may be
called "super-conscious" or "universally self-conscious."

3.	The Universe is a harmony in diversity.

4.	Every being collaborates with all others at all times.  We are
constantly sharing the energies of our thoughts and our feelings
by unconscious radiation each to all the others.   This is how
Karma is made.

5.	Progress is always self-chosen.  With mankind it is a moral
progression as well as an intellectual one.

6.	ULT represents an impersonal, active attempt to support and
continue these ideals in the world.  It excludes no one, and
establishes volunteerism as a prime basis.  It also encourages
study, since "knowledge is power."

7.	ULT respects and reveres the work of HPB and of Those called
"Elder Brothers," "Masters," "Sages." ... who made it presently
available again to us.  It seeks to keep Their "message" pure as
delivered.  It exists to promulgate it to those who desire it to
study and to use, to improve themselves and to help others.   It
therefore confines its promulgation to the original writings of
HPB and WQJ, and the questioning and careful  study of those
propositions.

	In conclusion it can be said that ULT encourages independent and
prudent consideration of Theosophy.

	It accepts the freely offered service of anyone who desires to
forward the Cause of the Masters.

	It endorses the three original objects of the Theosophical
Movement: 1.  Brotherhood;  2.  the study of the lore of
antiquity and current thought;  and 3.  finally, to investigate
the forces and powers of invisible Nature which are potential in
every man and woman.

	The DECLARATION of THE UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS makes all
these the basis for its association and work.  The phrases used
are  taken from the writings of HPB and WQJ.

		____________________________________________

Offered for consideration by

              Dallas TenBroeck
               dalval@nwc.net

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:46:09 PDT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Dallas Tenbroeck:  Did you write something to this effect?

Dear Mr Tenbroeck----

In my email of yesterday to theos-talk, I wrote----

"In one posting, Mr Tenbroeck, you wrote that the Thesophical 
Societies (Pasadena & Adyar) engage in politics but the U.L.T. 
doesn't."

Of course, I wasn't quoting your exact words but the substance of your 
remarks.

Now a ULT associate emails me privately defending you and basically 
stating that you never wrote this comment. He did not state how he 
knew this.

Tonight I have looked through scores of your emails and have failed to 
find your exact words on this. But I am still fairly certain that you 
said something to this effect. 

Mr. Tenbroeck, I ask you----have you posted words to this effect in 
the last 6 to 12 months on theos-talk or theos-l?

I would think that you would know whether such is your own sentiment 
and view. 

Hoping that you will be straightforward on this matter instead of 
avoiding the subject.  If you wrote such an opinion, you should be 
willing to acknowledge it and give reasons for such a view.  

If I have  made a mistake on the matter, I will be most willing to 
acknowledge my error.  I will continue to search your previous emails 
for your exact words on this subject.

David Green    

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:08:26 +0200 (Romance Daylight Time)
From: hesse600 <hesse600@tem.nhl.nl>
Subject: Mrs. Katherine Tingley Channels the Recently Deceased William Q. Judge

> "Mrs. Katherine Tingley Channels the Recently Deceased William Q. 
> Judge"
Is this a joke? They are both dead, aren't they?

Katinka HEsselink
----------------------
NHL Leeuwarden
hesse600@tem.nhl.nl

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:10:50 +0200 (Romance Daylight Time)
From: hesse600 <hesse600@tem.nhl.nl>
Subject: Re: Messages to W.Q. Judge from the dead Mme. Blavatsky Praise Katherine Tingley

> Another new web page has been posted on the Internet:
> 
> "Messages to W.Q. Judge from the dead Mme. Blavatsky Praise Katherine 
> Tingley."
THis is weird. With Judge, H.P.B. and Tingley gone we have 
turned spiritualists? Is that not exactly what H.P.B. tried 
to fight in the beginning of her illustrious career?

Katinka

----------------------
NHL Leeuwarden
hesse600@tem.nhl.nl

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:07:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
Subject: Quotes on the  Septenary in Nature and Man

	April 13th 1999

     Some quotes from Theosophical sources offered for
consideration and comment:
	by	Dallas

		SEVEN in Nature and in Man

"...the number seven, as well as the doctrine of the septenary
constitution of man, was pre-eminent in all the secret systems.
It plays as important a part in Western Kabala as in Eastern
Occultism."		SD I 241

"...the Point in the Circle is the Unmanifested Logos, the
Manifested Logos is the Triangle.  Pythagoras speaks of the never
manifested Monad which lives in solitude and darkness;  when the
hour strikes it radiates from itself One, the first number.  This
number descending, produces Two. the second number, and Two, in
its turn, produces Three, forming a triangle, the first complete
geometrical figure in the world of form.

It is this ideal or abstract triangle which is the Point in the
Mundane Egg, which, after gestation, and in the third remove,
will start from the Egg to form the Triangle.  This is
Brahma-Vach-Viraj...and Kether-Chochmah-Binah in the Zohar.

The First Manifested Logos is the Potentia, the unrevealed Cause;
the Second, the still latent thought;  the Third, the Demiurgos,
the active Will evolving from its universal Self the active
effect, which in its turn, becomes the cause on a lower
plane."	-- 	HPB	Transactions, p. 83

"A distinction has to be made between the Absolute Mind, which is
ever present, and its reflection and manifestation in the Ah-hi,
who, being on the highest plane, reflect the universal mind
collectively at the first flutter of Manvantara.  After which
they begin the work of evolution of all the lower forces
throughout the seven planes, down to the lowest--our own.  The
Ah-hi are the primordial seven rays, or Logoi, emanated from the
first Logos, triple, yet one in essence.  Universal or absolute
mind always is during Pralaya as well as Manvantara:  it is
immutable. "
 Transactions,  pp. 19-20

"The mystic Decad 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 is a way of expressing this
idea.  The One is God, the Two, matter;  the three, combining
Monad and duad, and partaking of the nature of both, is the
phenomenal world;  the Tetrad, or form of perfection, expresses
the emptiness of all;  and the Decad, or sum of all, involves the
entire cosmos.  The universe is the combination of a thousand
elements, and yet the expression of a single spirit--a chaos to
the sense, a cosmos to the reason."	ISIS I p. xvi

"...geometry, of all sciences the only one which proceeds from
universals to particulars...The sacred numbers of the universe in
their esoteric combination solve the great problem and explain
the theory of radiation and the cycle of the emanations."   	Isis
I p. 7

		Septenary Universe

"...the teaching about the Septenary constitution of the sidereal
bodies and of the macrocosm--from which the septenary division of
the microcosm, or Man--has until now been among the most
esoteric.  In olden times if used to be divulged only at the
Initiation and along with the most sacred figures of the
cycles...the key to their teaching is furnished by
Atma-Vidya...for outside of metaphysics no occult philosophy, no
esotericism is possible."	SD I 168-9

"The universe evolves from the unknown, into which no man or
mind, however high, can inquire, on seven planes or in seven ways
or methods in all worlds, and this seven-fold differentiation
causes all the worlds of the universe and the beings thereon to
have a septenary constitution...the little worlds and the great
are copies of the whole, and the minutest insect as well as the
most highly developed being are replicas in little or in great of
the vast inclusive original.

The divisions of the sevenfold universe may be laid down roughly
as:

	The Absolute, [or Space--that which ever is and in which all
manifestation must take place...we can do no more than say It Is.
None of the great teachers of the School ascribe qualities to the
Absolute although all qualities exist in It.]

Spirit, Mind, Matter, Will, Akasa or AEther, [ Akasa is used in
place of AEther because English...has no word to properly
designate that tenuous state of matter], and Life.

Our knowledge begins with differentiation, and all manifested
objects, beings, or powers are only differentiations of the Great
Unknown.  The most that can be said is that the Absolute
periodically differentiates itself, and periodically withdraws
the differentiation into itself.

The first differentiation--speaking metaphorically as to time--is
Spirit, with which appears Matter and Mind.  Akasa is produced
from Matter and Spirit.  Will is the force of spirit in action
and Life is a resultant of the action of Akasa moved by spirit,
upon Matter.

But the Matter here spoken of is not that which is vulgarly known
as such.  It is the real Matter which is always invisible, and
has sometimes been called Primordial Matter...Mulaprakriti
…we see or perceive only the phenomena but not the essential
nature, body or being of matter.

Mind is the intelligent part of the Cosmos, and in the collection
of seven differentiations above roughly sketched.

This plan was brought over from a prior period of manifestation
which added to its ever increasing perfectness, and no limit can
be set to its evolutionary possibilities in perfectness.  Because
there was never any beginning to the periodical manifestations of
the Absolute, there will never be any end, but forever the going
forth and withdrawing into the Unknown will go on."   Ocean, pp.
14-15

		Sevenfold Man

"We find...two distinct beings in man; the spiritual and the
physical, the man who thinks, and the man who records as much of
these thoughts as he is able to assimilate.

Therefore we divide him into two distinct natures:  the upper or
the spiritual being, composed of three "principles" or aspects;
and the lower or the physical quaternary, composed of four--in
all seven."		Key, p. 90

"As the prime declaration of theosophy is that all these
so-called bodies and appearances are for the purpose of enabling
the ONE--the Atma--to fully comprehend nature and "bring about
the aim of the soul," why not denominate all that it uses for
that purpose vehicles?...Or if greater clearness is desired, let
us say that there is one principle which acts through six
vehicles.  The scheme will then stand thus:

	ATMA (spirit), one principle, indivisible

			Its vehicles are

	Buddhi	.	.	.	.	Spiritual Soul
	Manas	.	.	.	.	Human Soul
	Kama Rupa	.	.	.	Animal Soul
	Linga Sarira	.	.	.	Astral Body
	Prana or Jiva	.	.	.	Vitality
	Rupa	.	.	.	.	The Body "	(from WQJ Articles I 299)

	"...Soul (or Ego)...is Atma-Buddhi-Manas...(collectively as the
upper Triad) lives on three planes, besides its fourth, the
terrestrial sphere;  and it exists eternally on the highest of
the three...

	Manas is immortal, because after every new incarnation it adds
to Atma-Buddhi something of itself, and thus assimilating itself
to the Monad, shares its immortality...

	Buddhi becomes conscious by the accretions it gets from Manas
after every new incarnation...Buddhi is the mould of Atma,
because Atma is no body, or shape, or any-
thing, and because Buddhi is its vehicle only figuratively...

	Atma neither progresses, forgets, nor remembers.  It does not
belong to this plane;  it is but the ray of light eternal which
shines upon and through the darkness of matter--when the latter
is willing...

	The astral through Kama (desire) is ever drawing Manas down into
the sphere of material passions and desires. But if the better
man or Manas tries to escape the fatal attraction and turns its
aspirations to Atma--Spirit--then Buddhi (Ruach) conquers, and
carries Manas with it to the realm of eternal spirit...

	The body follows the whims, good or bad, of Manas;  Manas tries
to follow the light of Buddhi, but often fails.

	The Monad becomes a personal ego when it incarnates;  and
something remains of that personality through Manas, when the
latter is perfect enough to assimilate Buddhi.
	[Extracts from SD I 243-245 ]

"To avoid henceforth...misapprehensions, I propose to translate
literally from the Occult Eastern terms their equivalents in
English, and off these for future use.

The HIGHER SELF is Atma, the inseparable ray of the Universal and
			ONE SELF.  It is the God above, more than
			within, us.  Happy is the man who succeeds 							in
saturating his inner Ego with it!

The SPIRITUAL divine Ego is the Spiritual soul or Buddhi, in
			close union with Manas, the mind-principle,
			without which it is no Ego at all, but only
			the Atmic Vehicle.

The Inner, or Higher "Ego" is Manas, the "Fifth" Principle,...
			independently of Buddhi.  The Mind-Principle 							is only
the Spiritual Ego when merged into
			one with Buddhi,--no materialist being sup-
			posed to have in him such an Ego, however
			great his intellectual capacities.  It is
			the permanent Individuality or the
			"Reincarnating Ego."

The Lower or Personal "Ego" is the physical man in conjunction
			with his lower Self, i.e., animal instincts,
			passions, desires, etc.  It is called the
			"false personality," and consists of the
			lower Manas combined with Kama-rupa, and
			operating through the Physical body and its
			phantom or "double."

The remaining "Principle" Prana," or "Life, is strictly speaking,
the radiating force or energy of 			Atma-- as the Universal Life
and the One Self,--Its lower or rather (in its effects) 			more
physical, because manifesting, aspect.

		Prana or Life permeates the whole being of the objective
Universe;  and is called a 		"principle: only because it is an
indispensable factor and the deus ex machina 			of the living
man." 	Key to Theosophy pp. 175-6

		==============================================================

		CHARTS, TABLES, DIAGRAMS

			-------------------

	Correspondence of the 7 Cosmic and 7 Human "principles."

================================================================
	Human aspects or			Cosmic aspects or
	   Principles				    Principles
================================================================

		Triple aspect of the Deity

1.	Universal Spirit (Atma)		The Unmanifested Logos

2.	Spiritual Soul (Buddhi)		Universal (latent) Ideation
							  (see Fnote p. 597)

3.	Human Soul, Mind (Manas)	Universal (or Cosmic) active
Intelligence
							Spirit of the Earth

4.	Animal Soul (Kama-Rupa)	Cosmic Chaotic energy

5.	Astral Body (Linga-Sarira)	Astral Ideation, reflecting
terrestrial things.

6.	Life Essence (Prana)		Life Essence or Energy

7.	Body (Sthula Sarira)		The Earth.		[ from: SD II 596-7]

			-------------------------------------------------

================================================================
   	Sanskrit	  Exoteric		Explanatory
      Terms	   Meaning				    (KEY, p. 91-2)
================================================================

	LOWER QUATERNARY

a)  Rupa  or	  Physical		Is the vehicle of all the other
  Sthula-Sarira	    body			"principles" during life.

b)  Prana	  Life or      		Necessary only to a) c) d), and
		   Vital			the functions of the lower Manas,
		   principle		which embrace all those limited to
					the (physical) brain.

c)  Linga-	 Astral body		The Double, the phantom body.
       Sharira

d)  Kama rupa	 The seat of		This is the center of the animal
		  animal des-		man, where lies the line of
		  ires and		demarcation which separates the
		  passions.		mortal man from the immortal
					entity.

	THE UPPER IMPERISHABLE TRIAD

e)  Manas --a	Mind. In-		The future state and the Karmic
    dual prin- 	telligence:		destiny of man depend on whether
    ciple in 	which is the		Manas gravitates more downward to
    functions	higher human		Kama-rupa, the seat of animal
		mind, whose		passions, or upwards to Buddhi, t.
		light, or rad-		Spiritual Ego.  In latter case,
		iation links 		the higher consciousness of in-
		the MONAD, for	   	dividual spiritual aspirations of
		the lifetime, 		mind (Manas), assimilating Buddhi,
		to the mortal		are absorbed by it and form t. Ego
		man.			which goes into Devachanic bliss.

f)  Buddhi	The 			The vehicle of pure universal
		Spiritual			Spirit.
		  Soul

g)  Atma	Spirit			One with the Absolute as its
					radiation.

	[From:  Key to Theosophy pp 91-2]

		============================================

	Offered by:

              Dallas TenBroeck
               dalval@nwc.net

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:07:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
Subject: RE: Theos-World Meditation Without a Seed =

Dear Jerry:

Thanks for the view you give of your experiences -- I can
understand what you mean now.

However I would observe that from this "waking plane"  -- "Jagrat
consciousness" -- in which we are "conscious" and able to
communicate as we are, our imagery and allegories, and also our
logic seems to be tied down to the experiences we are
remembering -- however faulty or incomplete they may be -- of
what we have seen or felt or thought on this plane or on others
(there is some haziness as time passes as to what was experiences
in thinking 'here and now' or perhaps on some other 'plane.'

I wonder if you would allow me to put before you a number of
questions that I asked my self some years ago ?

See what you think of them, and let me know.

Dal

====================

Some thoughts

QUESTIONS

1.	Unity of all.

	1.	What is ALL ?

	2.	What does unity imply ?

	3.	Is the "ALL"  in or out of "manifestation ?"

	4.	Is non-manifestation "Reality" ?

	5.	Why and how does "manifestation start ?"

	6.	What are the ideal components of manifestation ?

	7.	Who or what is benefited by manifestation ?

	QUESTIONS

2.	Law pervades all things.

	1.	Does Law imply motion ?

	2.	What beings fall under the sway of Law ?

	3.	What is a "being ?"

	4.  	 What does Law produce when it operates ?

	5.	Does Law always operate ?

	6.	Who observes Law in operation ?

	7.	If there is motion, then something has to be stable in order
to observe it.  What is 				that Observer ?

	8.	How is a "Law" started ?

	9.	Where does energy come from ?

	10.	What laws operate to aggregate a form ?

	11.	Why does intelligence (or consciousness) require a
form ?

3. Evolution is continuous.

		All beings are Intelligent.  Wisdom is the product of
experience.

		Manifestation provides the stage for experience.

	QUESTIONS

	1.	If there are consecutive periods of sleep and activity, Who
or What is
			aware of those ?

	2.	What is Intelligence ?  In Man,  Nature,  any being.

	3.	What is a Being, or an entity ?

	4.	Is there "independence ?"

	5,	What is Knowledge ?  Does it differ from Wisdom ?

	6. 	If manifestation is only a "stage," then what happens
at a time of non-manifestation ?

	7.	Is death comparable or analogous to non-manifestation?

	8.	Does anything survive Death.  What "dies" ?

	9.	How is a Body produced and what is it made of ?

	10.	What happens at death to the personal intelligence ?

	11.	What happens to the individual intelligence of the
atomic and molecular components of the body ?

	12.	Is there a relation between "Soul," and "Mind?"

	13.	What evidence is there of reincarnation ?

	14.	Are the "life-atoms" that are aggregated to form a
body intelligent ?  If so, how ?

	15.	Do the life-atoms benefit from the incarnation of a
"mind ?"

	16.	What is the nature of a "Monad" ?

4.	All beings are said to be "intelligent" -- from the "atom" to
the "Universe."

	Observations

	1.	We are an intelligence, a "person."

	2.	We live and use a body.  The body changes and repairs
itself.

	3.	We do not participate actively in every function of the body.

	4.	The body has its own intricate and cooperative functions
which serve
			to keep it functional, and repair it when injured.

	5.	The body communicates with us through feeling: hunger,
tiredness, loneliness,
			ill-health, or,  contentment, pleasure, fancy, hope, etc...

	6.	The Intelligence in the body is aware of our superior
decision and controlling 				power.  It seeks to maintain its
optimum integrity.  It "calls for help" when it 			reaches the
limit to which it can 	sustain itself in comfort.

	7.	The Intelligence that makes for a Man is different and
superior in power to the 				body's intelligence.

	8.	Together they form a cooperative.  When the cooperative is
disrupted there is
			fatigue, confusion, despair, etc...

	9.	What distinguishes the intelligence of the "Man" from that of
the body he lives in 				and uses ?

	10.	What is "will,"  "determination," volition, desire, ?

	11.	What are "feelings,"  desires,  passions,  needs,
wants ?  What is "dispassion,"  desirelessness ?

	13.	What is the nature and the accurate meaning of:  "thought,"
reasoning, 					ratiocination, concentration,  meditation,
cerebration, logic ?

	14.	What is correct understanding (or "cognition"),
misconception, fancy, sleep, 				memory ?

	15.	What is perception, inference, testimony ?

	16.	What is "erroneous notion" ?

	17.	Where is memory preserved ?

	18.	What is the distinction between passion / dispassion?

	19.	How do we assure ourselves of the accuracy of any memory ?

	20.	Are the desires, feelings and passions different and
separable from thought,
			and a sense of "I"-ness ?

	21.	What in our panorama of faculties uses argument,
deliberation ?

	22.	What in us knows the difference between Egoism and Egotism

	23.	What does a desire for ease, happiness, pleasure, lack of
worry, calm, 					contentment, amusement, distraction imply ?
What in us has these 				feelings ?

	24.	Can our feelings and desires influence the mind ?

	25.	How can the mind become dispassionate ?  What is discernment
?
			Is memory invoked in being discerning ?  How do we assure
ourselves
			 that this memory is accurate ?

	26.	How is the mind held steady on a single chosen item which it
desires to consider ?  			Is this intentness ?

I'm going to stop here -- as this is about half my list.  I wrote
these down some 10 years ago and have tried to answer some in the
interim through study, but I thought you might be interested.

As you have written several books and always consider the flow of
thought you may have considered some answers to these also.

Dal

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:42:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Imagination

April 14th 1999

Dear Gerry:

As I have noticed several times, once that we broaden our
definitions there is a greater coincidence noticed.

However in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY you will find that HPB narrows
and defines the actual functions of the Theosophical principles
and assigns reasons for those.  Also in FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY
will be found an article of hers on the SEVEN PRINCIPLES which
antecedes the publishing of the KEY.  In that the 7 principles
are discussed from the point of view of the Hindu schools and
their basis is amply explained.

While Jung and others of our modern psychologists approach to the
theosophical teachings in more than one way, they have failed to
take full advantage (in my esteem ) of the information that is
age-old and amply demonstrated.

As far as I can see, the faculty of imagination (and Patanjali
also says this ) is seated in Manas and not in Buddhi.  To
Imagination, Buddhi would passive.  In terms of INSPIRATION or of
INTUITION it offers universal and sublime ideas for the attention
of the embodied mind--which if employed would result in IDEAL
ACTIONS AND RESULTS.  That embodied mind (Kama-manas) then has
the option of using or rejecting them -- so Karma results from
that action.

Dal

              Dallas TenBroeck
               dalval@nwc.net

-----Original Message-----
> From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
> [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 7:59 AM
> To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
> Subject: Theos-World Re: Imagination

>>How, then, can BUDDHI be "imagination," as that is a faculty of
the
mind principle, as a result of its union with Kama ?
"Imagination" can be very selfish, whereas the essential
qualification of BUDDHI is its UNIVERSALITY  and TOTAL
UNSELFISHNESS,  It represents, as I understand it, the excellence
of
creativity only.>>

Dallas, I did not say that Buddhi is imagination. I said that
imagination, our ability to imagine or create images, is
in buddhi. And intuition or insight is there also. Manas is
mostly the thinking process.

I often like to think of this in the Jungian sense of
thinking (manas), feeling (kama), intution (buddhi),
and sensation (lower principles acting together).

Our human ability to imagine and to form images
is neither selfish or unselfish per se.

>>There is of course the AKASA the universal and impersonal
medium which
is sensitive and eternally records all events, thoughts, feelings
of all
beings in evolution -- it is the area where the string of any
particular
"Karma" can be traced from start to
finish.>>

Yes, akasa refers to the objective "material" of the inner
planes while the buddhi-manas-kama or human psyche
is its subjective counterpart.

Jerry S

-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk --
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From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 06:38:36 PDT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: NEW: David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy

David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy

http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/index.html

This is my new web page which gives full access to my other web pages 
on Robert Crosbie, William Judge & Katherine Tingley. This web page 
will list all *future updates* on my continuing study of the subject.

I've also added links to other skeptical, critical material on Helena 
Blavatsky, Charles Leadbeater & Alice Bailey.  If you know of other 
critiques of these theosophists & their claims, email the link address 
and I'll add to my index page.

Much more to come in the weeks ahead. Including never before published 
material.

Comments are welcomed & solicited.  Also anyone in possession of other 
related material who is willing to have it published on my web site, 
contact me with details.

David Green
http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/index.html

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:35:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
Subject: FW: Theos-World RE:  Response to Dallas == What are Universal Standard for the Sciences and Philosophies ?

April 16th 1999

Offered for consideration by

              Dallas TenBroeck
               dalval@nwc.net

 RE: Response to Dallas == What are Universal
Standard for the Sciences and Philosophies ?

================================

DALLAS:
>>As I have noticed several times, once that we broaden our
definitions there is a greater coincidence noticed.>>

JERRY:
Agreed. I have noticed this also.

<<However in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY you will find that HPB narrows
and
defines the actual functions of the Theosophical principles and
assigns
reasons for those.  Also in FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY will be found
an
article of hers on the SEVEN PRINCIPLES which antecedes the
publishing
of the KEY.  In that the 7 principles are discussed from the
point of
view of the Hindu schools and their basis is amply explained.>>

Dallas, the whole 7 principles doctrine is what is called
reductionism.  It is ok up to a point, but misleading because
no one of these principles really work alone, and they
actually function together as a network in very complex
ways. When I said that imagination is in buddhi, for
example, I automatically assume that atma is included
because buddhi can't do anything at all without atma.

==============================

DALLAS:	I AM NOT SURE IF "reductionism" is either "good or
bad" -- it is immaterial, (to me) because if Theosophy is a
SCIENCE, then the basics to be used in its applications would be
FUNDAMENTAL IDEAS.  Are those "propositions" so universal that
they may be accepted as a starting basis, which all can observe ?

Language is of course a trap as each one who uses it, employs it
with meanings that suit their own basis of self-development.  But
if that can be set aside, how are we to secure a common basis for
the exchange of ideas about fundamental propositions and observed
Laws of Nature ?

Like any of the "factual" physical sciences:  Mathematics,
Chemistry, Physics, Engineering, there are certain basics that
all accept and use as a universal method for communicating.

Mathematics is the tool that expresses most observations and
relationships as laws in Nature, when certain conditions are used
as an acceptable and universal, basic point of departure.
Chemistry, Physics and Engineering are all based on experiment
and observation of those Natural Laws that operate in material
nature, and, in their respective spheres of study, and they
interpenetrate each other, being both independent and dependent.
Mathematics synthesizes and provides a universal basis (and a
language) on which theory and observation are both racked.

If it can be granted that Theosophy, as the ANTIQUE SCIENCE, and
the PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY is such a synthesizing basis, then the
FUNDAMENTAL PROPOSITIONS that is advances cease to be matters of
adjustment and tinkering, and become axioms that can be used
universally to study the psychology of SCIENCE, as it relates
through the various departments of observation, to actual usage.
Theosophy is a modern expression of the psychology of the
Universal Soul, of that which pervades Nature, and of which we
are also a vital part.  Of special value is the ethical/moral
component that is generally neglected in the other Sciences.  By
this I mean the answer to a question such as:  "Of what value to
humanity at large is "such and such" an experiment or result ?"

If on the other hand we regard Theosophy as a speculative
science, then all its statements, terms and concepts are for-ever
made to shift this way and that.  Under such a concept, they
would show no more stability than the speculative sciences,
constantly under development through study and observation, of
psychology, linguistics, history, paleontology, and the
evolutionary sciences that are based purely on such artifacts as
are deemed suitable to meeting the pre-conceptions of certain
accepted theories of evolution.  In other words these are areas
of uncertainty, revision and constant development, that are
curiously hampered by the predilections and prejudices of its
major exponents.

I say this as clearly as I can, since much time is spent in
comparing current ideas that are under development with the main
theosophical Principles which have been established by untold
centuries and millennia of observation, experiment and usage in
the college of Adepts, and their Disciples.  I am aware that this
represents something that our academies do not recognize, since
they are not aware of its existence, and also, they are assisting
it in their own series of observations and the resulting Laws of
Nature that they are constantly refining and defining -- if we
take the whole of nature into account.

Nature is the same for us all, and Science and its experiments
provide those results when true that are adding to the total
knowledge of all.

========================
JERRY

>>While Jung and others of our modern psychologists approach to
the
theosophical teachings in more than one way, they have failed to
take
full advantage (in my esteem ) of the information that is age-old
and
amply demonstrated.>>

Jung only included material that he observed in his work and
left most other stuff as speculation. However, his archetypes
would
certainly equate with atma. Today we have Ken Wilber
and others who are, in fact, using much of the esoteric
doctrines from the East.

=====================

THAT IS VALUABLE TO KNOW  SOMEONE OUGHT TO WRITE ON THIS FOR US
ALL

====================

>>As far as I can see, the faculty of imagination (and Patanjali
also says this ) is seated in Manas and not in Buddhi.  To
Imagination, Buddhi would passive. >>

JERRY
Atma-buddhi is our spiritual monad or "ray" from the divine
monad. It contains imagination when this is defined as
our ability to produce images (and sounds). It also contains
the intuition or ability to become consciously aware of
things that physically would be impossible (noetic). But
our consciousness normally works through manas, and
here our buddhic images become cluttered with thoughts.
When we raise consciousness from manas
(mental plane) to buddhi (causal plane) we can directly
experience images without thoughts (which are but images
clothed in words or language). When chelas begin to
meditate, such as Patanjali teaches, they begin from
manas, which is to say from where they already are.
They begin with imagination focused in manas, or images
clothed in words and languages. The goal is to
gradually eliminate the clothing and observe images
and/or sounds directly (thus raising consciousness
from manas to buddhi).  This is all pretty esoteric
stuff and hard for me to put into words, but I hope that
you can see where I am coming from here. We do
have imagination in manas, but its source, our ability
to form images and sounds, is in atma-buddhi and
when imagination is in manas, it is always associated
with thoughts, words, language, etc. This has the
advantage of being more detailed, but the disadvantage
of being muddled or sullied by our personality.

==============================

DALLAS	AGREED,  perhaps more simply we could say that ATMA the
individual 'Ray" of the ONE SPIRIT  (ATMAN ) which is universally
present, acts in and through Man, as an INDIVIDUALITY, so that
the independence of the learning pupil (the PERSONALITY) is
sustained and maintained for the cooperative benefit of the whole
of Nature's existence.  The various principles, then are the
several bases for observation and action.

================================

>> In terms of INSPIRATION or of INTUITION it offers universal
and
sublime ideas for the attention of the embodied mind--which if
employed
would result in IDEAL ACTIONS AND RESULTS.  That embodied mind
(Kama-manas) then has the option of using or rejecting them -- so
Karma
results from that action.<<

JERRY
OK. But what do you mean by "ideal actions?"  Are these
"good" deeds? Or are these deeds that produce no karma?
It seems that you mean good deeds that produce good
karma (i.e., golden chains). This should be a natural
byproduct of our development, not a specific goal (which
would be spiritual selfishness).

==============================

DALLAS	IDEAL ACTIONS, to me would be those that are regulated by
an active concern for the help or confusion that is imposed on
others by any choice that we the independent PERSONALITY may
make, and its subsequent development of either assistance or
resistance in surrounding affected nature.  It is the
"moral/ethical" effect of any choice made while living.

All choice that result from thought to action affect other beings
either for their benefit or for their obstruction.  Hence only
those actions that are performed in harmony (and with knowledge
or wisdom of their sensitive existence) can be so designed that
they are "karmaless."  And, I think that is almost impossible.
Hence the injunction that we do "good" deeds -- those that are
basically unselfish, and for the "good of all creatures."

==================================

JERRY
Most of Patanjali, as I understand it, has to do with
purifying kama-manas and then raising consciousness
to buddhi-manas and then to atma-buddhi. He discusses
two degrees of samadhi: the lower is with residuals
and the higher is without.  The lower is atma-buddhi
and the higher is pure atma or possibly para-atma.
Unfortunately, he also goes on at great length
discussing siddhas or powers that  can be gained
from samyama. These should not be taken literally
but are true in a psychological sense.

===================================

DALLAS	What you say is quite correct and the Yoga-Sutras of
Patanjali are classified as "Tantras" of the "Right-Hand
Path." -- practiced by the "Dakshinachariyas."

The SIDDHAS as I understand are the "powers" that are developed
without special effort in the "pupil" as he progresses on the
path to Wisdom and universal service.  They are developed,
recognized and lie dormant until needed by another Yogi and for a
universally important reason.  If ever used personally, they are
"lost" to that disciple. I deduce that their use is only
permissible if there is a universally beneficial reason for their
exercise.

==================================

I prefer Buddhist yoga to Patanjali, but this is my own
personal preference. However, I have used the AUM
or OM mantra sucessfully. When you do this, the sound
can take consciousness into atma-buddhi, its source,
and the trip is easier each time it is done.

Jerry S

THANKS AND BEST WISHES

DALLAS	April 16th 1999

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From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:37:59 GMT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: NEW: Alan Donant's Article on Col. Arthur L. Conger

A new web page has been posted on the WWW:

"Mr. Alan Donant's Article on Colonel Arthur L. Conger"

http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/conger.htm

Much more to come in the weeks ahead.

David Green 

David Green's Critical History Page on Theosophy 
http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/Links.html 

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:03:27 GMT
From: "David Green" <davidgreen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ramadoss on Wane Kell

Dear M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>  ----

I've been trying to contact Wane Kell who wrote a biographical sketch 
of Mr Crosbie.  I see that you're the person who posted it on 
theostalk.

Do you know how I can contact this person?  I assume he's a ULT 
associate.  I'd like to ask Mr Kell to give sources for some of his 
questionable statements about Mr Crosbie.

Where did you obtain a copy of Kell's bio of Crosbie?

David Green

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:48:25 PDT
From: katinka hesselink <hesse600@tem.nhl.nl>
Subject: Re: What are Universal Standard for the Sciences and Philosophies ?

Dear Dallas,

You write:
>> Like any of the "factual" physical sciences:  Mathematics,
Chemistry, Physics, Engineering, there are certain basics that
 all accept and use as a universal method for communicating.>>
Yes, but those tools are also in movement: they are changed 
when the neccessity arises. 
>> Mathematics is the tool that expresses most observations and
relationships as laws in Nature, when certain conditions are used
as an acceptable and universal, basic point of departure.>>

I wonder if you studied mathematics or the history of it. 
Certain conditions usually started out as being accepted as 
universal, but then later on it was found out that they 
were not so universal. I think here of for instance the 
history of chaostheory, but even the history of algebra is 
an example of this. Foundations in science are questioned 
as soon as they are found to be lacking. 

>> If it can be granted that Theosophy, as the ANTIQUE SCIENCE, and
 the PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY is such a synthesizing basis, then the
 FUNDAMENTAL PROPOSITIONS that is advances cease to be matters of
 adjustment and tinkering, and become axioms that can be used
 universally to study the psychology of SCIENCE, as it relates
 through the various departments of observation, to actual usage.>>

But each individual has to check the most essential of these propositions for 
themselves. In fact, it is only meaningfull to talk about the unity of everything if one 
KNOWS this unity, instead of just having mentally accepted it.  

>> I say this as clearly as I can, since much time is spent in
 comparing current ideas that are under development with the main
 theosophical Principles which have been established by untold
 centuries and millennia of observation, experiment and usage in
 the college of Adepts, and their Disciples.  I am aware that this
 represents something that our academies do not recognize, since
 they are not aware of its existence, and also, they are assisting
 it in their own series of observations and the resulting Laws of
 Nature that they are constantly refining and defining -- if we
 take the whole of nature into account.>>

This may be true, but for people of this age to understand 
theosophy it certainly helps the mind to see what 
correspondences there are with the current sciences. 

Yerry writes:
>> Jung only included material that he observed in his work and
 left most other stuff as speculation. However, his archetypes
 would certainly equate with atma. >>

Would they? Archetypes are forms aren't they? Atma is a ray 
of the formless, as I understand it. This means that 
archetypes may be found in Mahat probably or perhaps in 
Buddhi, mut atma... I would not think so. But I am 
interested to hear Jerry's idea's on this. 

> JERRY
>> Atma-buddhi is our spiritual monad or "ray" from the divine
 monad. It contains imagination when this is defined as
 our ability to produce images (and sounds). It also contains
 the intuition or ability to become consciously aware of
 things that physically would be impossible (noetic). But
 our consciousness normally works through manas, and
 here our buddhic images become cluttered with thoughts.
 When we raise consciousness from manas
 (mental plane) to buddhi (causal plane) we can directly
 experience images without thoughts (which are but images
 clothed in words or language). When chelas begin to
 meditate, such as Patanjali teaches, they begin from
 manas, which is to say from where they already are.
 They begin with imagination focused in manas, or images
 clothed in words and languages. The goal is to
 gradually eliminate the clothing and observe images
 and/or sounds directly (thus raising consciousness
 from manas to buddhi). We do
 have imagination in manas, but its source, our ability
 to form images and sounds, is in atma-buddhi and
 when imagination is in manas, it is always associated
 with thoughts, words, language, etc. This has the
 advantage of being more detailed, but the disadvantage
 of being muddled or sullied by our personality.>>

This is the first I've heard of buddhi being an active 
principle. I thought it was passive. It has been said that 
the Mahatma's prime teacher is his/her Atma, which is 
all-knowing, but I've always understood this to mean that 
through atman we gain access as it were with everything 
else. Atma in itself is in my point of view the light by 
which we see. It is not the things we see. By things I mean also idea's and 
images, like the ones you talk about. But this is an 
interesting subject and very difficult, so I am interested 
to know what people have to say.

Katinka
----------------------
NHL Leeuwarden
hesse600@tem.nhl.nl

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:34:17 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Silent Introduction

Dear Louis:

Here is the reference from SD Vol II pp.444-445:

I would also add that if the introduction of Internet had taken place with
all the fanfare, there would have been insurmountable obstuctionist tactics
by various large corporations in various industries. Since the introduction
took everyone by surprise, there was no time to fight it; they had to get
on the train or left behind.

mkr
===============

Since the beginning of the Atlantean Race many million years have passed,
yet we find the last of the
Atlanteans, still mixed up with the Aryan element, 11,000 years ago. This
shows the enormous
overlapping of one race over the race which succeeds it, though in
character and external type the
elder loses its characteristics, and assumes the new features of the
younger race. This is proved in all
the formations of mixed human races. Now, Occult philosophy teaches that
even now, under our very
eyes, the new Race and Races are preparing to be formed, and that it is in
America that the
transformation will take place, and has already silently commenced. 

**************************************
Thus the Americans have become in only three centuries a "primary race,"
pro tem., before becoming
a race apart, and strongly separated from all other now existing races.
They are, in short, the germs of
the Sixth sub-race, and in some few hundred years more, will become most
decidedly the pioneers of that race which must succeed to the present
European or fifth sub-race, in all its new characteristics. After this, in
about 25,000 years, they will launch into preparations for the seventh
sub-race; until, in consequence of cataclysms -- the first series of those
which must one day destroy Europe, and still later the whole Aryan race
(and thus affect both Americas), as also most of the lands directly
connected with the confines of our continent and isles -- the Sixth
Root-Race will have appeared on the stage of our Round. When shall this be?
Who knows save the great Masters of Wisdom, perchance, and they are as
silent upon the subject as the snow-capped peaks that tower above them. All
we know is, that it will silently come into existence; so silently, indeed,
that for long millenniums shall its pioneers -- the peculiar children who
will grow into peculiar men and women -- be regarded as anomalous lusus
naturae, abnormal oddities physically and mentally. Then, as they increase,
and their numbers become with every age greater, one day they will awake to
find themselves in a majority. 

****************************************************************

At 06:48 AM 4/19/1999 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 4/19/99 1:15:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>ramadoss@eden.com writes:
>
><< Quite some time ago, I saw an analogy between what HPB said about new root
> races and the Internet. She said (I do not have specific reference on hand)
> that slowly the new root race is formed silently and suddenly one day the
> world finds the new root race is on to the world scene much to the surprise
> of the majority of the world.  >>
>
>Thank Doss, very perceptive. I would be interested in seeing the exact HPB 
>reference for this notion. Can anyone on this list point me in the right 
>direction?
>
>Louis

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:35:31 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: A Dialogue with K

I just received the following brief account of the conversation between K
and Ruben Feldman Gonzalez. I hope it would interest some.

mkr
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20

                          --=3D=3D=3DUntie the Ocean =3D=3D=3D--
---
Dr. Rub=E9n Feldman Gonz=E1lez=20
---

Untie the Ocean=20

(Intimate dialogues with Krishnamurti) Memorized after the encounter - not
recorded on audiotape=20

I met Krishnamurti on March the 23rd 1975 in San Francisco, California. I=
 have
already written about that. My last name is Feldman Gonzalez but=
 Krishnamurti
addressed me only as Dr. Gonzalez.=20

March 24, 1975 (Huntington Hotel - San Francisco, California)=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Sorry, I made you wait. I was doing some Hatha Yoga.=20

_Ruben:_ No problem. Thank you for receiving me again. I would like to=
 discuss
the fact that you are the instructor of the world (or the Second Coming).=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You worry about the irrelevant.=20

_Ruben:_ It is relevant for me, because if you are the Instructor of the
World, then I want to be an apostle.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ There are no more apostles, Dr. Gonzalez. It is of critical
urgency that human beings change radically. They have to detach themselves
from the content of mankind's consciousness, they have to live without
touching the stream of growing vulgarity and violence. Egocentric activity=
 has
to end, the desire for profit, power and prestige. One needs to learn to=
 live
psychologically alone, that is to be content without depending on anybody or
anything.=20

_Ruben:_ That they detach themselves from the content of mankind's
consciousness?... then, how does one live?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You don't become comatose, you don't enter into a drug or
alcohol induced trance, you don't live in a state of hypnosis, nor asleep=
 even
while awake. You live in complete attention. Are you aware that observation=
 is
attention?=20

_Ruben:_ Fundamental action.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Observation is action. To observe totally doesn't mean to be
negligent nor socially indifferent. If you observe totally, each one of your
actions changes in nature. You free yourself from the choking grip of
traditional memory and you also start to think sanely and freely. So there=
 is
total observation and new thought and action.=20

(We spent a long time in silence)=20

_Ruben:_ Are you greater than Jesus?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Do you want me to say "yes"?=20

_Ruben:_ Tell me what do you think?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Mankind is not the same. In the last 2000 years there have
been three wars every year in the world and there has been a consequent
degradation of human beings, the son of humanity can not be the same.=20

_Ruben:_ You are talking of the Son of Man (with capital letters) aren't=
 you?
You are talking of the Greek "uios tou antropon" (the son of man). Aren't
you?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ The son of humanity is today the son of a degraded mankind.
Then... what do you do?=20

_Ruben:_ I listen to Krishnamurti.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ For how long?=20

_Ruben:_ Until I understand and radical change occurs.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Be a light to yourself. Stop procrastination. Throw away the
content of consciousness. There has to be pure consciousness, pure=
 awareness,
pure listening.=20

_Ruben:_ When I asked you whether I could speak publicly you said, "you
speak".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You speak. "That" is not only for you.=20

_Ruben:_ Can you tell me more about talking to people about all this?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You talk and expect no-thing.=20

*(long pause, in vital silence)* Krishnamurti had said "no-thing", he had=
 not
said "nothing".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ It's time for lunch Dr. Gonzalez.=20

March 25, 1975=20
(Hotel Huntington, San Francisco, California)=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Good morning Dr. Gonzalez.=20

_Ruben:_ Good morning.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ I guess you have some questions, right?=20

_Ruben:_ You told me two days ago that you'll never die in an aircraft, what
is it that makes you feel protected?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ That.=20

_Ruben:_ O.K. Please, tell me about That (Or the Other).=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You can see That in action, but you can't talk about it.=20

*(long pause, in complete silence)*=20

_Ruben:_ You already know that some of my friends disappeared in Argentina.
Sometimes I feel deep sorrow for Argentina and for the rest of the world.=
 How
come so much horror?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ You can be free of all conditioning and then you'll be free=
 of
sorrow. When you are not an Argentinian anymore you'll be able to do more=
 for
mankind and even for Argentina. I was born in India. I had an English
passport. When India declared its independence from England I asked for an
Indian passport. Since then I have great problems to get visas when I travel
around, but I'm not English nor Hindu. I'm a human being.=20

_Ruben:_ You are a very special human being. You are easy to love.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ I admit I'm different, but the transformation that has
occurred in me can occur in any other human being. And nobody needs
Krishnamurti or Dr. Ruben for that radical transformation, which is so
necessary, to occur.=20

_Ruben:_ Maybe not, but a serious dialogue helps.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ With no guru. Dialogue without gurus.=20

_Ruben:_ Could we say that you are being my guru without us wanting it and
that I'm being your guru without it being my purpose?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Then there is a serious dialogue. You and I are seeing
together the same thing at the same time. The most repugnant thing is to
prostrate yourself to another human being and adore him or her.=20

*(long pause, in vibrant silence)*=20

_Ruben:_ Someone told me you sometimes even faint out of sheer physical
pain... What is that?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ I call it "the process" but I don't understand it nor want=
 to.
I leave all the explanations about "the process", healing, and clairvoyance=
 to
doctors like yourself (laughing).=20

_Ruben:_ I'd like you to tell me how to heal. I mean healing in its pristine
and complete sense.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Again Dr. speaking *(long pause)* I prepared tea for you the
other day. You found it bitter and left it. I had to ask you to finish it.=
 You
still have predilections, Dr. Gonzalez.=20

_Ruben:_ So, to heal (with capital letters) you need to have no
predilections.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ No, no. It's necessary not to have predilections. Period. If
you're content for something you're not content.=20

*(long pause)*=20

_Ruben:_ Would you summarize the teaching in only one sentence?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Attempt without effort to live with death in futureless
silence.=20

_Ruben:_ It sounds absurd.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Some time ago, in 1972, I spent a full morning with That
without leaving my bed. I was completely quiet, before doing my Hatha yoga
(only physical yoga, just to keep a flexible body)... that was like a flame=
 in
the center of immensity. And the center of immensity was my brain. Do you
understand?=20

_Ruben:_ Yes.=20

*(long pause)*=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Then, what are you waiting for?=20

_Ruben:_ What? Are you by any chance saying that That is ready for me right
now?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ That's right. But you are too sad. What a waste! Then, what
are you waiting for?=20

_Ruben:_ I want to understand that sentence: "Die in silence without=
 future".
I think it would be better to say "attempt without effort to live in peace=
 in
futureless silence".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ No. Death is the end of all you are afraid to loose: your
attachments, your memory, your disappeared friends, your prestige as a
children's surgeon. All that is the content of your consciousness. Can you=
 get
rid of it right now, now that you're young and healthy and not wait for 50
years for it to crumble by itself? It's easy for me to die.=20

_Ruben:_ Saint Paul said: "I die every day".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Paul said "I die every day" and Dr. Gonzalez repeats what=
 Paul
says and nothing at all happens.=20

_Ruben:_ You're more of a surgeon than I am.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Dr. Gonzalez, your brain has been as it is for the last
million years. For how long will it be like that? Will you go to bed tonight
with that brain of yours as it always has been? Habit, sorrow, anger, etc.?=
=20

_Ruben:_ I wouldn't be here if I wanted to go to bed with this brain as it=
 is.
Nevertheless, I know I shouldn't accept what you say just blindly. I have to
experience it. Would you be able to facilitate the experience of that which
may transform my brain and my life?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ If I was so stupid as to facilitate it, then all I say would
become a theory or a technique, like so many others. You have to do it
yourself, Dr. Gonzalez. Climb to the summit and look, or do you prefer to go
to bed and beg me to describe it to you? Would you be satisfied with my
description? Then you have no substance, then you are a second- hand human
being.=20

*(pause)*=20

_Ruben:_ How does mediocrity end?=20

_Krishnamurti:_ As you get rid of the contents of human consciousness, will
you get rid of all word?=20

_Ruben:_ Without saying "Krishnamurti is talking to me".=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Or he who listens is a "respectable Dr." You simply listen
totally in pure silence.=20

_Ruben:_ Nevertheless, even with no words, I'll be able to talk meaningfully
from deep silence.=20

_Krishnamurti:_ For the first time, quite sir. The word God is not God.=20

_Ruben:_ Will it help to stop sex with my wife? (*)=20

_Krishnamurti:_ Dr. Gonzalez, if you love, you love your wife, then you do
what you will and there is beauty in what you do. Don't worry about sex, do=
 it
or don't. Now, let's be silent for a while because Mr. and Mrs. Lillifelt=
 will
be here soon. We will have to talk, because you know well Dr. Gonzalez, that=
 I
will not live forever. Perhaps ten years more and the chap will be gone.=20
-=3DComments =3D-

(*) The relationship with my wife ended three years later when she left our
house, which I immediately got rid of. Ever since then I live in the desert
without securing my future.=20

The meeting followed the dialogue but I have already written about it.=20

Krishnamurti died almost exactly ten years later.=20

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:44:59 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Kosov Crisis

I have been reading the print media as well as watching the TV everyday
trying to understand what is the root cause of the problem in Kosov.
Finally I just saw the following write up by Margolis which clearly
explains why religion is at the root of the current Kosov Crisis.

Religions have caused such huge suffering over thousands of years, one
wonders it is not time for some of us who can see the suffering cannot
raise above the organized religions and work for the elimination of the
suffering. At the present rate, these kinds of horrors are likely to
continue for ever unless the average man/woman starts thinking clearly so
that we also do not fall into the "religious" trap.

Theosophy should help.

mkr
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Religion=92s at the root of Balkan evil By Eric Margolis

Serbia=92s savagery in Kosovo has finally exposed one of Europe=92s
darkest and dirtiest secrets: the long racial and religious war against
the Muslims of the Balkans.=20

Hatred of Muslims is the 1990=92s version of the anti-Semitism of the 193=
0=92s
that led to the extermination of Europe=92s Jews.  Just as many Europeans
were overtly or secretly happy during the Nazi era to be rid of the Jews,
so today, some modern Europeans actively or tacitly support the latest
campaign by Serbia=92s Muslim- hating racist regime to impose a `final
solution=92 to the `problem=92 of the Balkan Muslims.=20

After the Ottoman Empire in Eastern Europe collapsed in 1912, hundreds of
thousands of Muslim Turks were slaughtered or driven out.  At the end of
Turkish-Greek war 1920-1928, 400,000 Turks were expelled from the Balkans=
;
simultaneously, one million Greeks were driven from Aegean Turkey.  From
1912-1928, large numbers of Slav and Albanian Muslims were expelled from
Bosnia, Kosovo, and Serbia.  Today, there are almost 2 million people of
Bosnian descent and some 1 million of Albanian origin living in Turkey.=20

These vast expulsions still left some Turks, and millions of native Balka=
n
Muslims, the descendants of Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, and Bulgarians who
had voluntarily converted to Islam in the 15-16th Centuries to escape
fierce religious persecution by the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, or to
avoid a head tax on Christians levied by the Ottomans.

Today, there are some 10 million Muslims in the Balkans: nearly 3 million
nominal Muslims in Albania; 2.3 million in Kosovo and Sanjak; 2 million i=
n
Bosnia; 2 million in Bulgaria;  180,000 in Greece; and 600-700,000 Muslim
Albanians in Macedonia.

In the 1980=92s, Bulgaria expelled 300,000 Muslim citizens and forced the
remaining Muslims to Slavicize their names and adopt Orthodox
Christianity.  A few years later, Serbia began attempts to exterminate or
drive out Bosnia=92s Muslims.=20

France and Britain, nervous over their own large Muslim minorities, and
traditionally anti-Muslim because of their colonial past, thwarted US
efforts to halt ethnic warfare against Bosnia=92s Muslims. Greece, Bulgar=
ia,
and Macedonia gave the Serbs economic and diplomatic support. The west=92=
s
tacit approval, or ineffectual opposition, to this ethnic-religious
warfare opened the way for Serbia=92s `final solution=92 in Kosovo.

Today, there is wide support among Orthodox nations of Eastern Europe for
Serbia=92s merciless campaign to eradicate its Muslim and Catholic Albani=
an
minority.  What we are seeing is not just a war over land, it is an
eruption of the most vicious medieval hatred against non-Slavs and
non-Orthodox people, encouraged and enflamed by demagogue Slobodan
Milosevic and some extremist elements of the Orthodox clergy.  Slavs in
Bulgaria, Macedonia and Russia, and, sadly, some Greeks, are cheering on
this massive pogrom, just as Europe=92s Catholic right applauded Germany=92=
s
`purification=92 of Jews from their midst.=20

Serb propaganda paints Albanians and Muslims as `dirty, violent Turks,=92
who `breed like rabbits,=92 `run drugs,=92 and flood Slav lands with thei=
r
alien offspring, the vanguard of a vast `Islamic horde about to invade
Christian Europe.=92 Orthodox priests preach revenge for events 500 years
past, even urging a new crusade to `liberate Constantinople(modern
Istanbul)  from the Turks=92 Milosevic began the horrors of ethnic warfar=
e,
vowing, a decade ago, `we will send all the Muslims back to Mecca.=92

Ironically, Albania was always renowned for religious toleration. Muslims
drank and celebrated Christmas and Easter; Catholics often observed
Ramadan; Muslim, Orthodox, and Catholic Albanians mixed freely and withou=
t
the slightest rancor.  Every member of Albania=92s small Jewish community
was hidden from the Nazis and Italian fascists.=20

Yet the easy-going, unreligious Albanians and other Balkan Muslims now ar=
e
paying a terrible price for long past centuries of religious and racial
hatred. They have become scapegoats for the frustrations, economic ruin,
and low self-esteem of the failed, only semi-Europeanized nations of the
darkest Balkans.=20

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:24:38 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Ready for next Virus?

+*+*
Here is a news item of interest.

mkr
================

                           New virus strikes Monday 

                           Data-destroying Chernobyl virus called
                           worse than 'Melissa'

                           April 23, 1999: 7:06 a.m. ET

                  SAN FRANCISCO, (Reuters) - A virus that can
                  wipe out all the data on a personal computer's hard
                  drive and even make it impossible to start programs up
                  is set to hit next Monday, security experts warned. 
                     The virus is a malicious piece of software code that
                  has been turning up in PCs for months, but the version
                  that will strike on Monday is the most-feared variation.
                     The so-called CIH or "space filler" virus originated
                  in Asia last summer and hits on the 26th of each
                  month. The CIH 1.2 that appears only once a year in
                  April is the "most prevalent and dangerous" form of the
                  virus, said Sal Viveros, marketing vice president for
                  Network Associates Inc., the largest computer
                  security company.
                     The CIH virus is far more dangerous to individual
                  computers than "Melissa," the much publicized bug that
                  spread relatively benign problems far and wide on the
                  Internet last month.
                     The CIH virus can irretrievably destroy data on a
                  user's computer, and even make the machine
                  inoperable, while Melissa only really caused
                  embarrassment, by sending a list of porn sites from an
                  infected computer's e-mail address book, and tied up
                  some corporate e-mail systems with traffic.
                     The CIH gets the name "space filler" because it
                  uses a special technique that secretly fills file space on
                  computers and thwarts many of the anti-virus software
                  programs in place before its arrival. The virus is also
                  called the "Chernobyl" virus because it's timed to go
                  off on the anniversary of the Russian nuclear accident,
                  one of technology's worst disasters.
                     The virus is designed to hide from view by inserting
                  itself into empty coding slots on a computer's software
                  utilities. Viruses are often detected because they use
                  up extra space on hard drives, but the "space filler"
                  helps CIH avoid that traditional method of detection. It
                  can lie dormant for months before causing damage.
                     The April version of the virus is particularly
                  damaging because it can also keep a computer from
                  starting up by infecting the software on which all the
                  PC's programs depend, the basic input/output system,
                  or BIOS. If the BIOS is infected, the computer will not
                  start.
                     Most up-to-date anti-virus software will spot the
                  bug, if it's there, and many corporate computers have
                  recently upgraded their protection due to the Melissa
                  scare, said Network Associates' Viveros.
                     The biggest impact is likely to be on home
                  computers, said Viveros, who added that computer
                  users can download an anti-virus program free of
                  charge from his company's site. The virus is spread by
                  e-mail over the Internet or in pirated software. It
                  infects Windows 95 and Windows 98 files. 
                     "People should make sure they have the latest
                  anti-virus software run on their computers," said Bill
                  Pollak, of Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering
                  Institute, which runs the Computer Emergency
                  Response Team, or CERT. The center has already
                  prepared an "incident" note that it will put on its site. 

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:41:18 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Kosov and its religious background

***
On Kosov crisis, while we read about it and see the live pictures on TV, it
was not until I read the write up by Margolis, that I understood the real
problem. The print and news media while concentrating on the minute to
minute happenings, did not point out the real problem behind all that is
happening.

The situation reminded me of a passage in a letter from Master KH to APS
(ML10) which is reproduced below.

One wonders if humanity is better today than what it was 500 or 2000 years
ago. It seems to show that theosophy, especially the first object is still
a valid one and if one we can make it pervasive we will have a better world.

In the context of religion and sacredotal caste, a related question that
should come up in the minds of theosophists is the issue of LCC. After
Besant-Leadbeater took over, they espoused LCC as one of the three legs of
future salvation or adepthood. A related question that comes up is that if
LCC was considered that important to the future of TS, surely HPB and the
Adepts would have told HPB to establish LCC when she was alive and made
Olcott or someone else as the LCC Pope, which was not done.

These are just some questions that come to my novice mind.

mkr
=================================================

"Think well over these few words; work out every cause of evil you can
think of and trace it to its origin and you will have solved one-third of
the problem of evil. And now, after making due allowance for evils that are
natural and cannot be avoided, -- and so few are they that I challenge the
whole host of Western metaphysicians to call them evils or to trace them
directly to an independent cause -- I will point out the greatest, the
chief cause of nearly two thirds of the evils that pursue humanity ever
since that cause became a power. It is religion under whatever form and in
whatsoever nation. It is the sacerdotal caste, the priesthood and the
churches; it is in those illusions that man looks upon as sacred, that he
has to search out the source of that multitude of evils which is the great
curse of humanity and that almost overwhelms mankind. Ignorance created
Gods and cunning took advantage of the opportunity. Look at India and look
at Christendom and Islam, at Judaism and Fetichism. It is priestly
imposture that rendered these Gods so terrible to man; it is religion that
makes of him the selfish bigot, the fanatic that hates all mankind out of
his own sect without rendering him any better or more moral for it. It is
belief in God and Gods that makes two-thirds of humanity the slaves of a
handful of those who deceive them under the false pretence of saving them.
Is not man ever ready to commit any kind of evil if told that his God or
Gods demand the crime?; voluntary victim of an illusionary God, the abject
slave of his crafty ministers. The Irish, Italian and Slavonian peasant
will starve himself and see his family starving and naked to feed and
clothe his padre and pope. For two thousand years India groaned under the
weight of caste, Brahmins alone feeding on the fat of the land, and to-day
the followers of Christ and those of Mahomet are cutting each other's
throats in the names of and for the greater glory of their respective
myths. Remember the sum of human misery will never be diminished unto that
day when the better portion of humanity destroys in the name of Truth,
morality, and universal charity, the altars of their false gods." 

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:26:47 -0700
From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval@nwc.net>
Subject: RE: theos-l digest: April 20, 1999

April 23

Dear Katinka

Thanks for your comments

May I be allowed to insert some more comments in the body of your
letter to me ?

Dal

              Dallas TenBroeck
               dalval@nwc.net

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:48:25 PDT
From: katinka hesselink <hesse600@tem.nhl.nl>
Subject: Re: What are Universal Standard for the Sciences and Philosophies ?

Dear Dallas,

You write:

>> Like any of the "factual" physical sciences:  Mathematics,
Chemistry, Physics, Engineering, there are certain basics that
 all accept and use as a universal method for communicating.>>
Yes, but those tools are also in movement: they are changed
when the necessity arises.
>> Mathematics is the tool that expresses most observations and
relationships as laws in Nature, when certain conditions are used
as an acceptable and universal, basic point of departure.>>

------------------

I wonder if you studied mathematics or the history of it.
Certain conditions usually started out as being accepted as
universal, but then later on it was found out that they
were not so universal. I think here of for instance the
history of chaos theory, but even the history of algebra is
an example of this. Foundations in science are questioned
as soon as they are found to be lacking.

===========================

DALLAS:

I am only superficially familiar with the philosophy that
underlies the "Chaos theory."  and I am aware that there are
advances all the time in mathematics, as well as all other
sciences that deal with the analysis of "matter" such as we at
present commonly deal with.  And, on which our whole
technological civilization is based.

Those refinements that are under current investigation (Chaos
theory, indeterminacy, randomness, fractiles, morpho-genetic
fields, etc...show me that there are deep patterns in Nature
which reveal a greater sensitivity that we have hitherto been
aware of) -- are still based on certain general premises and
discoveries of qualities and properties which serve to identify
the fundamentals of relationships.

I think that Theosophy deals chiefly with these, and to give us a
basis for their consideration, HPB has devoted the first 300
pages of the S D in Vol. I to explaining their origin and the
patterns which represent the re-commencing of the World and
Universe when a "Manvantara" brings them back into incarnation
 and we along with them).

It is those fundamental relationships that I have in mind rather
than the details.  But of course all are related and have to be
considered to make a viable whole.

Theosophy teaches that all is under evolution, and that from
moment to moment there are subtle changes for which we have
eventually to compensate as the basis and parameters of shifting
relationships.  In a word, the only stable position is that of
the "observer," or "Witness."  and theosophy teaches that in
every human the HIGHER SELF (Atma-Buddhi-Manas) is this
unmovable, indestructible and eternal MONAD -- the True Human, an
evolving Manasic being.

If matter is "maya," or subject to this constant change, then,
any statement is true only for that moment, and it is then almost
immediately a part of the "past."  But, taking a more extended
view, from the time when I went to school to the present, there
has been an ever-widening panorama and an ever-deepening
discovery of facts that has become generally evident.

Rigid statements concerning Matter and the relationships of
analytical determinations has had to shift to the consideration
of the independence ( indeterminacy ) of individual molecules and
atoms which refuse to act as inert, "dead" objects, and are found
to react as THEY CHOOSE.  And therefore, the results of
experiments are constantly shown to be variables, perhaps over a
short range.  From this, I understand that  "chaos theory" has
evolved -- meaning, to me, that the recognition of CHOICE at the
atomic/molecular level indicates there are rules of relationships
in the most minute aspects of great Nature -- things of which we
have no idea until recently.

I would conclude that even in these minute conditions, the rules
and laws of karma (in Nature) operate and we are proving in
physical matter that Theosophy is correct in speaking of the
"ultimate division of the atom as a basic fact in "occultism" --
which means that this experimentation in, and of physical matter
is an aspect of "occultism" which has been developed here in the
West, in regard to Nature's laws of "matter" relationship in this
present condition of "substance."  It could be called "Western
occultism."  It also takes many long years and an unrelenting
applications to study and work to arrive at the conclusions we so
easily summarize in a few words.  But that is the fate of all
"occult' study -- it is proved an known but to a few and the
"many" accept their "authority."

What I have objected to is that when I was taught in school (over
60 years ago), the statements made were as FACTS instead of
saying in a far more honest way: these are theories, and they may
change as we learn more."  So I resent having to "un-learn" many
things.  I also resent having been treated as a kind of
"note-book" on which (by memory) the inscription of the ideas and
teachings of the knowledge of that time was impressed ( also, by
my own efforts of course, but without the proviso that these were
approximate)

I therefore try, in presenting my ideas, and such of Theosophy as
I think I have grasped, to always say that "such and such" is my
understanding and the reader or correspondent ought to examine
and re-rest whatever is offered.  The offering of axioms is quite
dangerous, as there may be experiments and discoveries that upset
them in time.

So what about "Fundamentals ?"  Are there any we can identify and
depend on ?

I think that the S D Vol. 1,  pp. 14-19 sets out some that are
consistent and used throughout the presentation of Theosophy.

In mathematics, chemistry, physics, astro-physics, etc.,  certain
discoveries or experiments have revealed a good portion of the
additional secrets of Nature's inner workings under various
aspects of Karma.

Nature contains everything and gives us life because of her
cooperative nature.  Our Western Physical science has proved that
theosophy was quite right in teaching that there are greater
depths (and distances) in the Universe than we have any idea of.
and all is rules by sensitive and self-adjusting laws.  [ Take
the great collaboration in our bodies, of atoms, molecules,
cells, and other structures in which various cooperative
functions perform, each its own work.  Is this not an
illustration of how we trust our lives to intelligences that
operate independently of ourselves as "consciousnesses ?"  We are
in effect "tenants" in a highly complex living structure -- our
bodies and most functions are preformed unconsciously--while we
are actively doing mental work. ]

I assume that her [ Nature's ] sensitivity and intelligence
includes mine.  I also assume that there is a constant ongoing
relationship between us, not as slave and master, but as
companions and collaborators.  I also believe that we can
demonstrate that the whole of nature operates in this manner and
that the concept of Universal Brotherhood and collaboration are
indeed facts, and not just "wishful-thinking."

So with the help of the Theosophic view, should we not try to
learn more about the ethical application aspect of Theosophy,
when applied to personal daily life and modern contemporary
affairs, whether in our community, our nation, or the world ?

=============================

>> If it can be granted that Theosophy, as the ANTIQUE SCIENCE,
and
 the PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY is such a synthesizing basis, then the
 FUNDAMENTAL PROPOSITIONS that is advances cease to be matters of
 adjustment and tinkering, and become axioms that can be used
 universally to study the psychology of SCIENCE, as it relates
 through the various departments of observation, to actual
usage.>>

But each individual has to check the most essential of these
propositions for
themselves. In fact, it is only meaningful to talk about the
unity of everything if one
KNOWS this unity, instead of just having mentally accepted it.

>> I say this as clearly as I can, since much time is spent in
 comparing current ideas that are under development with the main
 theosophical Principles which have been established by untold
 centuries and millennia of observation, experiment and usage in
 the college of Adepts, and their Disciples.  I am aware that
this
 represents something that our academies do not recognize, since
 they are not aware of its existence, and also, they are
assisting
 it in their own series of observations and the resulting Laws of
 Nature that they are constantly refining and defining -- if we
 take the whole of nature into account.>>

This may be true, but for people of this age to understand
theosophy it certainly helps the mind to see what
correspondences there are with the current sciences.

Jerry writes:
>> Jung only included material that he observed in his work and
 left most other stuff as speculation. However, his archetypes
 would certainly equate with atma. >>

Would they? Archetypes are forms aren't they? Atma is a ray
of the formless, as I understand it. This means that
archetypes may be found in Mahat probably or perhaps in
Buddhi, mut atma... I would not think so. But I am
interested to hear Jerry's idea's on this.

> JERRY
>> Atma-buddhi is our spiritual monad or "ray" from the divine
 monad. It contains imagination when this is defined as
 our ability to produce images (and sounds). It also contains
 the intuition or ability to become consciously aware of
 things that physically would be impossible (noetic). But
 our consciousness normally works through manas, and
 here our buddhic images become cluttered with thoughts.
 When we raise consciousness from manas
 (mental plane) to buddhi (causal plane) we can directly
 experience images without thoughts (which are but images
 clothed in words or language). When chelas begin to
 meditate, such as Patanjali teaches, they begin from
 manas, which is to say from where they already are.
 They begin with imagination focused in manas, or images
 clothed in words and languages. The goal is to
 gradually eliminate the clothing and observe images
 and/or sounds directly (thus raising consciousness
 from manas to buddhi). We do
 have imagination in manas, but its source, our ability
 to form images and sounds, is in atma-buddhi and
 when imagination is in manas, it is always associated
 with thoughts, words, language, etc. This has the
 advantage of being more detailed, but the disadvantage
 of being muddled or sullied by our personality.>>

This is the first I've heard of buddhi being an active
principle. I thought it was passive. It has been said that
the Mahatma's prime teacher is his/her Atma, which is
all-knowing, but I've always understood this to mean that
through atman we gain access as it were with everything
else. Atma in itself is in my point of view the light by
which we see. It is not the things we see. By things I mean also
idea's and
images, like the ones you talk about. But this is an
interesting subject and very difficult, so I am interested
to know what people have to say.

==============================

DALLAS offers:

Atma is linked by Buddhi to Manas and so on down the line of
principles its influence as the "CONSCIOUSNESS" descends until
the impressions on our brain are illuminated by that INTELLIGENCE
which gives us our "I-ness" our identity.

Buddhi also serves through its close association with "akasa" as
the "scribe" or the recorder of all experience.  It is therefore
WISE and serves our embodied brain-mind as the prompter we call
our "conscience".  If you have a copy of TRANSACTIONS OF THE
BLAVATSKY LODGE you will find that HPB speaks of this interchange
at length in the section between pp 66 and 76 (see Blavatsky
COLLECTED WORKS, Vol 10, pp 252 onward)  [ This is available
through blavatsky.net -- on line ]

Our MONAD  ( Atma-Buddhi-Manas) is an Eternal Pilgrim, and thus
Buddhi is not only a link but also an active tutor of the
personal self -- we in our waking consciousness from day to day.
This is what I have concluded, but this ought to be checked also
by you and perhaps also review what HPB says on the Buddhi in the
KEY TO THEOSOPHY.

Best wishes, as always,

Dal.

Katinka
----------------------
NHL Leeuwarden
hesse600@tem.nhl.nl

--

Here is the reference from SD Vol II pp.444-445:

Since the beginning of the Atlantean Race many million years have
passed,
yet we find the last of the
Atlanteans, still mixed up with the Aryan element, 11,000 years
ago. This
shows the enormous
overlapping of one race over the race which succeeds it, though
in
character and external type the
elder loses its characteristics, and assumes the new features of
the
younger race. This is proved in all
the formations of mixed human races. Now, Occult philosophy
teaches that
even now, under our very
eyes, the new Race and Races are preparing to be formed, and that
it is in
America that the
transformation will take place, and has already silently
commenced.

**************************************
Thus the Americans have become in only three centuries a "primary
race,"
pro tem., before becoming
a race apart, and strongly separated from all other now existing
races.
They are, in short, the germs of
the Sixth sub-race, and in some few hundred years more, will
become most
decidedly the pioneers of that race which must succeed to the
present
European or fifth sub-race, in all its new characteristics. After
this, in
about 25,000 years, they will launch into preparations for the
seventh
sub-race; until, in consequence of cataclysms -- the first series
of those
which must one day destroy Europe, and still later the whole
Aryan race
(and thus affect both Americas), as also most of the lands
directly
connected with the confines of our continent and isles -- the
Sixth
Root-Race will have appeared on the stage of our Round. When
shall this be?
Who knows save the great Masters of Wisdom, perchance, and they
are as
silent upon the subject as the snow-capped peaks that tower above
them. All
we know is, that it will silently come into existence; so
silently, indeed,
that for long millenniums shall its pioneers -- the peculiar
children who
will grow into peculiar men and women -- be regarded as anomalous
lusus
naturae, abnormal oddities physically and mentally. Then, as they
increase,
and their numbers become with every age greater, one day they
will awake to
find themselves in a majority.

****************************************************************

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:46:07 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Kosovo - An observation

After looking at the shocking pictures of refugees -- young and old and
sick -- I was shocked when I read about the increased funding Clinton is
asking. Of the $6 billion, a pittance is going towards helping the
refugees. Most of it going for the guns and bombs. Now the congress wants
to increase the money spent on guns and bombs. What they preach and what
they do in DC does not jive with what is needed.

It is a pity that this is so, in 1999.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:10:36 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Ready for next Virus?

Here is a news item of interest.

mkr
================

                           New virus strikes Monday 

                           Data-destroying Chernobyl virus called
                           worse than 'Melissa'

                           April 23, 1999: 7:06 a.m. ET

                  SAN FRANCISCO, (Reuters) - A virus that can
                  wipe out all the data on a personal computer's hard
                  drive and even make it impossible to start programs up
                  is set to hit next Monday, security experts warned. 
                     The virus is a malicious piece of software code that
                  has been turning up in PCs for months, but the version
                  that will strike on Monday is the most-feared variation.
                     The so-called CIH or "space filler" virus originated
                  in Asia last summer and hits on the 26th of each
                  month. The CIH 1.2 that appears only once a year in
                  April is the "most prevalent and dangerous" form of the
                  virus, said Sal Viveros, marketing vice president for
                  Network Associates Inc., the largest computer
                  security company.
                     The CIH virus is far more dangerous to individual
                  computers than "Melissa," the much publicized bug that
                  spread relatively benign problems far and wide on the
                  Internet last month.
                     The CIH virus can irretrievably destroy data on a
                  user's computer, and even make the machine
                  inoperable, while Melissa only really caused
                  embarrassment, by sending a list of porn sites from an
                  infected computer's e-mail address book, and tied up
                  some corporate e-mail systems with traffic.
                     The CIH gets the name "space filler" because it
                  uses a special technique that secretly fills file space on
                  computers and thwarts many of the anti-virus software
                  programs in place before its arrival. The virus is also
                  called the "Chernobyl" virus because it's timed to go
                  off on the anniversary of the Russian nuclear accident,
                  one of technology's worst disasters.
                     The virus is designed to hide from view by inserting
                  itself into empty coding slots on a computer's software
                  utilities. Viruses are often detected because they use
                  up extra space on hard drives, but the "space filler"
                  helps CIH avoid that traditional method of detection. It
                  can lie dormant for months before causing damage.
                     The April version of the virus is particularly
                  damaging because it can also keep a computer from
                  starting up by infecting the software on which all the
                  PC's programs depend, the basic input/output system,
                  or BIOS. If the BIOS is infected, the computer will not
                  start.
                     Most up-to-date anti-virus software will spot the
                  bug, if it's there, and many corporate computers have
                  recently upgraded their protection due to the Melissa
                  scare, said Network Associates' Viveros.
                     The biggest impact is likely to be on home
                  computers, said Viveros, who added that computer
                  users can download an anti-virus program free of
                  charge from his company's site. The virus is spread by
                  e-mail over the Internet or in pirated software. It
                  infects Windows 95 and Windows 98 files. 
                     "People should make sure they have the latest
                  anti-virus software run on their computers," said Bill
                  Pollak, of Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering
                  Institute, which runs the Computer Emergency
                  Response Team, or CERT. The center has already
                  prepared an "incident" note that it will put on its site. 

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:25:52 -0400
From: "libidia" <libidium@globalserve.net>
Subject: Re: Ready for the next Virus

>                           New virus strikes Monday
>
>                           Data-destroying Chernobyl virus called
>                           worse than 'Melissa'
>
>                           April 23, 1999: 7:06 a.m. ET

Dear mkr,
Thanks for this onfo.  I was sceptical about all these virus warnings until
I followed the Melissa event.  We did upgrade our anit-virus software at
work and I have a good program on my home PC, but I think now I will take
the time to keep it upgraded with free download versions.   I'll forward
your message at work.

Is this computer virus outbreak similar to the violence in schools outbreak
do you think.  Young, intelligent people striking out at a society that
fails to meet their existential needs.

I interviewed a summer student yesterday and was taken aback by two
things.....
I'm old compared to the latest generation of amateur philsophers, and,
people still get manipulated into lifestyles and professions in conflict
with their personality, natural skills, needs and goals, by "well meaning"
parents and counsellors whose only concern is material security and success.
Just like me and my kids.

I have been listening to the lunch time conversations about the school
violence and the general consensus is that "some people are born bad", and,
"these people must be punished because they must learn society's rules which
are set up for the safety of the whole and keep them whatever it takes."
Judaism is alive and strong still!  You'd think we were still bloody sheep
and camel herders living in a harsh tribal environment according to people's
reactions.  So, maybe under all this civilization and technology, the heart
never left the desert for most people :-)
Cheers
Annette

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 00:04:51 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Kosovo

I just returned from an Indian New Year Celebration.

At the function I saw a flyer announcing a music performance by a visiting
Indian Artiste next week and the proceeds to go to Kosovo refugees. While
the funds raised will be a drop in the bucket, what was noticeable is that
someone is doing something to help. BTW, the person behind the effort is a
good friend of mine and happens to be a devotee of Sai Baba. One more
effect of Sai Baba's teachings on helping the needy put in practice.
-Theosophy in action--

Just wanted to share.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:11:51 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Student of Occultism vs Adeptship

While reading the ML to APS, there was a comment regarding Occultism and
Adeptship.

Commenting on C. C. Massey - a most charming, devoted friend; a profound
mystic; a generous, noble minded man, a gentleman -- as they say -- every
inch of him; tried as gold; every requisite for a *student* of occultism,
none for an *adept*...

I was intrigued. Can someone who is well qualified to be a student of
occultism but alas does not have requisite for an adept.

Any ideas?

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:19:31 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Speeding up your Karma

One concept many in TS are fairly familiar with is that the idea of working
of one's "bad" karma is speeded up once a person tries to become a chela.
Is this an idea that was discussed during the time of HPB or something that
was developed after her demise.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:32:15 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Chief Aim of the Adepts

In ML to APS, discussing the concept of "God", Master K.H. states:

Our chief aim is to deliver humanity of this nightmare (God), to teach man
virtue for its own sake, and walk in life relying on himself instead of
leaning on a theological crutch, that for countless ages was the direct
cause of nearly all human misery.
==========

Is not K's message same as above? K restating what the Adept has clearly
laid out as "Their" chief aim. 

With all the information provided in SD about anthropogenesis and
cosmogenesis, it appears that the fundamental problem the Adepts are trying
attack is to make every man and woman self reliant and choose virtue for
its own sake, not for  creating good Karma or trying to become Adepts at a
future date. With all that has been said and written about the Path, I
think that the above statement is the keystone of the objective of the
Adepts. They have clearly laid out and not any concealed or secret or
undeclared objects that some scholars seem to believe.

Any comments.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:46:26 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Diseases

This is a subject we have discussed in the past.

Here is what I found in ML to APS:

Writing about Evil, Master K.H. says:

It is not nature that creates diseases, but man. The latter's mission and
destiny in the economy of nature is to die his natural death brought by old
age; save accident, neither a savage nor a wild (free) animal dies of
disease. Food, sexual relations, drink, are all natural necessities of
life; yet excess in them brings on disease, misery, suffering, mental and
physical, and the latter are transmitted as the greatest evils of future
generations, the progeny of culprits.

====================

What is very telling is the recognition of sexual relations and drink among
the natural necessities of life, which some feel incompatible with spritual
progress.

When a novice reads the theosophical classics and runs into the traditional
members many of whom may not agree with the above, the novice is at a loss
to understand.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:59:49 +1200
From: Murray Stentiford <mas.jag@iprolink.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Student of Occultism vs Adeptship

A magnificent hint, methinks, of the gap yet to be crossed, the unfolding
yet to occur.

Murray

>While reading the ML to APS, there was a comment regarding Occultism and
>Adeptship.
>
>Commenting on C. C. Massey - a most charming, devoted friend; a profound
>mystic; a generous, noble minded man, a gentleman -- as they say -- every
>inch of him; tried as gold; every requisite for a *student* of occultism,
>none for an *adept*...
>
>I was intrigued. Can someone who is well qualified to be a student of
>occultism but alas does not have requisite for an adept.
>
>Any ideas?

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:48:05 +0200 (Romance Daylight Time)
From: hesse600 <hesse600@tem.nhl.nl>
Subject: Re: Speeding up your Karma

<ramadoss@eden.com> wrote:

> One concept many in TS are fairly familiar with is that the idea of working
> of one's "bad" karma is speeded up once a person tries to become a chela.
> Is this an idea that was discussed during the time of HPB or something that
> was developed after her demise.

It was discussed during H.P.B.'s lifetime. In fact she 
wrote about it herself. Do you want qoutes on this or is 
the fact that it was discussed enough?

Katinka
----------------------
NHL Leeuwarden
hesse600@tem.nhl.nl

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:18:23 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Re: Speeding up your Karma

At 02:48 PM 4/27/1999 +0200, you wrote:
>
><ramadoss@eden.com> wrote:
>
>> One concept many in TS are fairly familiar with is that the idea of working
>> of one's "bad" karma is speeded up once a person tries to become a chela.
>> Is this an idea that was discussed during the time of HPB or something that
>> was developed after her demise.
>
>It was discussed during H.P.B.'s lifetime. In fact she 
>wrote about it herself. Do you want qoutes on this or is 
>the fact that it was discussed enough?
>
>Katinka

Dear Katinka:

While I trust the info you provide, if you can just give the citation of
one or two places where HPB discussed this, would help to know exactly what
she tried to explain.

...mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:10:22 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Kosovo

I just saw the following news report:

 Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian leaders
 have decided to postpone their first meeting in the Americas because of
the
 conflict in Yugoslavia, church officials said Tuesday.

=========

The orthodox christian leaders are from Yugoslavia. Instead of
condemning the suffering that is going on because of the action of
politicians, what do they do? Cancel the planned meeting which was to
bring the two sects together.

It is the same people who every day pray for saving the souls cannot
open their eyes to the killing and hurt that is being perpetrated in
Kosovo, who do not come out openly and call a stop to the misery of the
Kosovars.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:44:13 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Funeral Costs in Japan

There is a AP report in today's newspaper about the Buddhist funeral
costs in Japan. The cost was a surprise to me. The average cost is
$22,000.00. Obviously this is what the market is willing to bear. US
Funeral Industry should be salivating looking at this figure.

More surprising was the fact that there is a tradition of giving
after-life names of the dead. The name assigned by the temples is almost
exclusively based on the money paid for the assignment of the name. The
names are akin to a ranking system reflecting on the deceased's noble
actions during life. The highest rank called "ingo" usually costs more
than $8,300. Of the average $5,300 paid to temples for funeral fees in
the Tokyo area, about $3,300 goes for the posthumous name.

On a lighter side: Is anyone interested in the above concept?

You can buy posthumous names cheaper while you are alive and all the
proceeds - 100% of it will go to help the Kosovo refugees. Will accept
cash, cashiers check, money order or Major Credit cards.

Those who are super rich and facing estate taxes down the road can take
double benefit. You get tax deduction currently and avoid estate taxes
which can be as high as 55%.

PS: Poor and penniless can get the name for free. All you need is to
send a e-mail.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:15:40 +0100 (British Summer Time)
From: hesse600 <hesse600@tem.nhl.nl>
Subject: Re: Speeding up your Karma

On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:18:23 -0500 M K Ramadoss 

> ><ramadoss@eden.com> wrote:
> >
> >> One concept many in TS are fairly familiar with is that the idea of working
> >> of one's "bad" karma is speeded up once a person tries to become a chela.
> >> Is this an idea that was discussed during the time of HPB or something that
> >> was developed after her demise.
> >
> >It was discussed during H.P.B.'s lifetime. In fact she 
> >wrote about it herself. Do you want qoutes on this or is 
> >the fact that it was discussed enough?

> While I trust the info you provide, if you can just give the citation of
> one or two places where HPB discussed this, would help to know exactly what
> she tried to explain.
Very rightly, because my memory is not very reliable. I 
will look it up. 
I have the problem of not having my internetaccount on a 
computer in my home, so I do not have the information here. 
Meanwhile I do have a quote from the Mahathmaletters you 
probably know: 

>> THe mass of human sin and frailty is distributed 
throughout the life of man who is content to remain an 
average mortal. It is gathered in and centered so to say, 
within one period of the life of a chela-- the period of 
probation. THat which is generally accumulating to find its 
legitimate issue only in the next rebirth of an ordinary 
man, is quickened and fanned into existence in the chela 
-- especially in the presumptious and selfish candidate who 
rushes in without having calculated his forces.>>
Mahatma Letters, p. 354 (Trevor Barker-version)

This is the clearest quote I can find in the little 
notebook that goes where I go, but I will try and look up 
my notes at home. Without mentioning Kharma, H.P.B. does 
mention that the chela must expect every hidden aspect of 
their character to come out into the open (excuse the 
rotten centence), so that the good the good person tries to 
hide comes out despite their shyness, for instance. Since 
this seems to mean that skandas that were hidden come out, 
it means almost the same as Karma speading up. I will look 
and see what I can find. I think I was a bit quick in 
asserting that she did discuss it. I do think she hinted at 
it. THe problem is that in my mind the Mahatma Letters and 
H.P.B. have the same texture, so that I get them on one 
heap. 

There is an interesting quote from the Hadith 
(Islam-tradition of quotes by Mohammed) that points into 
the same direction:
>> Whenever God loves a devotee, He subjects him to 
ordeals. Should he endure patiently, God singles him out; 
should he be content, God purifies him.>>

If that isn't testing, I do not know what is. And what 
material would be used to test us, but our own karma? That 
which we deserve? Speading up Karma is in my mind a very 
logical idea. Also it is neccessary in order for a person 
to become a Mahatma quickly: past mistakes have to be faced 
and ammended.

Katinka
----------------------
NHL Leeuwarden
hesse600@tem.nhl.nl

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:58:43 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss <ramadoss@eden.com>
Subject: Re: Speeding up your Karma

> THe mass of human sin and frailty is distributed 
>throughout the life of man who is content to remain an 
>average mortal. It is gathered in and centered so to say, 
>within one period of the life of a chela-- the period of 
>probation. THat which is generally accumulating to find its 
>legitimate issue only in the next rebirth of an ordinary 
>man, is quickened and fanned into existence in the chela 
>-- especially in the presumptious and selfish candidate who 
>rushes in without having calculated his forces.>>
>Mahatma Letters, p. 354 (Trevor Barker-version)

Dear Katinka:

Thanks for the quote. Don't bother about locating any other material on
this. The above statement is as clear as it can be about the subject.

mkr