From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:45:08 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The December THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out The December issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Devotion," by Mrs. Isabel Cooper-Oakley "Audio Recording of G. de Purucker," by Eldon Tucker "The Theosophical Movement: 1875 - 1998," by Dallas TenBroeck "Innovative Theosophy," by Eldon Tucker "Incorrodible Bronze," H.T. Edge "Myth of the Masters," by Sy Ginsburg "Theosophical Directions," by Nancy B. Conley "Different Models of Globes, Planes, and Principles," by Eldon Tucker "Women in the Theosophical Movement," Part I, by James Santucci "Cycles in the Universe and the Harmonics Theory," by Ray Tomes "How to Spend a Fun Day," by John R. Crocker THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:55:15 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 29, 1998 Alan wrote: >>[Kym] We limit our own lives and thoughts, and then sit and >>sincerely ponder and pine over others doing the same. > >Don't you think we are wise to set limits? I do, for otherwise the >burden might get too much, especially when considering some of the >"hidden" realities. Like mink are killed by gassing them with carbon >dioxide to make fur coats for rich people? They are bred for this. I >certainly pine over such things ... I gave up eating meat for similar >reasons, and I have not starved to death. I absolutely agree, Alan. My above statement was far too broad and generalized. As you noted, we often overlook answers that are right in front of us, but I also believe that you are right in stating the need to limit our lives and thoughts - we need to refrain from harming and to try to keep our thoughts focused on compassion. A person who wears fur or slaughters minks is, to me, too limited in that they do not recognize the divinity in all beings - seeing some beings as only objects to make money from or to "adorn" their bodies with, and caring nothing for their suffering. And I do pine over such horrors and the answers to such horrors do not seem to be right in front of me, nor can I seem to find them within me. >Dear Kym, you never post BS. Whew! This means that that one post I sent to this very list exactly 478 days ago has been forgotten. And to think I'd been agonizing about it all this time! Sheesh! Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:01:15 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 29, 1998 Frank wrote: >Ironically, this is a parody of Jerry's style... Frank, WHAT is a parody of Jerry's style? Fortunately for you, I just sent a post to this list talking about keeping one's mind focused on compassion because, you see, if I hadn't just sent that post I would have asked you something akin to the following, "Frank, did you take your medication today?" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:03:55 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World Quotations == Your question about PATANJALI a Bailey translation. Nov 30th 1998 Dear Alan: PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS You ask me about them. I am familiar with several Indian translations into English and of all those that I have read the one that I found to be the most accurate and fair and illuminating was that done by W. Q. Judge. I am not familiar with the Bailey version. I have read a number of Bailey versions (which are considered by some to be "theosophical" or even, additions and improvements on what Mme. Blavatsky wrote !) and find that they diverge from the basic and coherent Theosophical message. But that is to be expected from writers who use psychic material, and not spiritual sources. And that is my opinion. Personally I would not "rely" on those, but, everyone should make up their own mind. I do not wish to appear partisan, but experience tells me always to find out for myself that which is reliable. Trust your own logic and commonsense. In all these matters of translation one ought to view several and select that which seems to be the best and closest to truth and fairness. That is a difficult thing if one cannot use and employ the original language in which such old texts (Sanskrit) were written. A thorough knowledge of original Theosophy and its principal tenets is most helpful. Add to that your own commonsense and you have something you can learn to trust. But, beware of one's opinions which might be shaded by earlier training, education and the impression that "authorities" seek to impose on their readers. And that includes what I say, please. I do not claim to be an authority, but only to be a free thinker, and try to value things on their merit and avoid limiting opinions (if I can). Best wishes, Dallas PS: a copy of the Judge version of PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS can be had for $ 5.00 from THEOSOPHY COMPANY, 245 W. 33rd St., Los Angeles, Ca., 90007 Phone: 1-213-748-7244. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD-Theosophical Talk-theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:38:22 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 29, 1998 kymsmith@micron.net writes >>Dear Kym, you never post BS. > >Whew! This means that that one post I sent to this very list exactly 478 >days ago has been forgotten. And to think I'd been agonizing about it all >this time! Sheesh! Oh - THAT post. Well ....... Alan :0) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:41:39 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: FW: Theos-World Quotations == Your question about PATANJALI a Bailey translation. W. Dallas TenBroeck writes >Dear Alan: > >PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS You ask me about them. Dear Dallas. I ask you about nothing. Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:45:16 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The December THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out The December issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Devotion," by Mrs. Isabel Cooper-Oakley "Audio Recording of G. de Purucker," by Eldon Tucker "The Theosophical Movement: 1875 - 1998," by Dallas TenBroeck "Innovative Theosophy," by Eldon Tucker "Incorrodible Bronze," H.T. Edge "Myth of the Masters," by Sy Ginsburg "Theosophical Directions," by Nancy B. Conley "Different Models of Globes, Planes, and Principles," by Eldon Tucker "Women in the Theosophical Movement," Part I, by James Santucci "Cycles in the Universe and the Harmonics Theory," by Ray Tomes "How to Spend a Fun Day," by John R. Crocker THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:18:26 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Who said what where and when? Alan wrote: >kymsmith@micron.net writes >>And, now. . .let us reflect back to a recent exchange of postings which >>pondered how and why Theosophical writings land upon the printing press >>suffering from a lack of "authenticity." > >That's an awful lot of reflecting - we shall all be dazzled by the glare. Indeed, my friend. My post was meant to be an example of how we seek answers to questions everywhere and anywhere - but make sure to avoid the area right in front of us (or within us). We limit our own lives and thoughts, and then sit and sincerely ponder and pine over others doing the same. Maybe, for some of us, the "glare" or light within us is seen as too much, too dazzling, to view at this particular time. . .. Or maybe my post was simply BS - who knows? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:35:57 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 28, 1998 Dallas responds to Jerry: >DALLAS >HARDLY - IF YOU WILL WIDEN YOUR HORIZONS THE LOGIC OUGHT TO BE >CLEAR. >IF YOU CAN ADVANCE YOUR LIMITATIONS, THEN WE CAN UNDERSTAND YOU >AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE THE CONDITIONS YOU LOOK AT. OBVIOUSLY >OURS MAY BE DIFFERENT, BUT THEN, THOSE CAN BE ADJUSTED ONCE THAT >YOURS BECOME CLEAR. Dallas, is Jerry going blind? Why the capital letters? Oh, by the way - a writing tip (suggested via a previous Eldon post): A simple sentence like "Jerry, you are narrow-minded, illogical, limited in scope, and unclear in thought; but I, Dallas the Great, am not." would have summed up nicely what you wrote in way too many fluffy and phoney words. However, you have managed to master HPB's style of writing. . .I'm impressed. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:28:30 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Quotations from theosophical sources: on Karma Nov 29th 1998 KARMA - A Survey The doctrine of Karma is that we have made ourselves what we are by former actions, and, we are building our future eternity by present actions. There is no destiny but what we ourselves determine. There is no salvation or condemnation except what we ourselves bring about. Because it offers no shelter for culpable actions and necessitates a sterling manliness, it is less welcome to weaker natures than the easy religious tenets of vicarious atonement, intercession, forgiveness and death-bed conversions. In the domain of eternal justice the offence and the punishment are inseparably connected as the same event, because there is no real distinction between the action and its outcome. It is Karma, or our old acts (good and bad) that draw us back into earthly life. The spirit-soul's abode changes according to its Karma, and this Karma forbids any long continuance in one condition, because it (Spirit-Soul) is always changing. So long as action is governed by material selfish motives, just so long must be the effect of that action be manifested in physical re-births. Only the perfectly self-less man can elude the gravitation of material life. Few have attained this, but it is the goal of mankind. Those who believe in karma have to believe in destiny, which, from birth to birth, every man and woman is weaving, thread by thread, around himself, as a spider does his web, and this destiny is guided either by the heavenly voice of the invisible prototype "outside" (or "above") us, or by our more intimate astral or "inner" man (including the passions and desires - Kama), who is but too often the evil genius of the embodied entity called "man." Both of these lead on the outward (physical) man, but one of them must prevail; and from the very beginning of the invisible affray, the stern and implacable law of compensation steps in and takes its course, faithfully following the fluctuations (of the motives of the embodied "soul.") An Occultism or a philosopher will not speak of the goodness or cruelty of Providence; but, identifying it with Karma-Nemesis, he will teach that, nevertheless, it guards the good and watches over them in this as in future lives; and that it punishes the evil-doer so long as the effect of his having thrown into perturbation even the smallest atom in the infinite world of harmony has not been finally readjusted. For the only decree of Karma-an eternal and immutable decree-is absolute harmony in the world of mater as it is in the world of spirit. Therefore it is not Karma that rewards or punishes, but it is we who reward or punish ourselves according to whether we work with, through and along with nature, abiding by the laws on which that harmony depends, or-break them. Nor would the ways of Karma be inscrutable were men to work in union and harmony, instead of disunion and strife. We stand bewildered before the mystery of our own making and the riddles of life we will not try to solve, and then accuse the great Sphinx of devouring us. But, truly, there is not an accident in our lives, not a misshapen day, or a misfortune, that could not be traced back to our own doings in this or in another life. The law of Karma is inextricably interwoven with that of reincarnation. It is only this doctrine that can explain the apparent accidents and terrible injustices of life. Nothing but such a certainty can quiet our revolted sense of justice. This law, whether conscious or unconscious, predestines nothing and no one. It exists from and in eternity truly, for it is Eternity Itself; and, as such, since no act can be coequal with eternity, it cannot be said to act, for, it is action itself. Karma creates nothing, nor does it design. It is man who plants and creates causes, and the karmic law adjusts the effects, which adjustment is not an act but universal harmony, tending ever to resume its original position. Karma has never sought to destroy intellectual or individual liberty. It has not involved its decrees in darkness to perplex men and women, nor does it punish anyone who dares to scrutinize its operations. On the contrary, those who seek to unveil its operations are considered by it to be working for the good of their fellow-men. Karma is one with the Unknowable. This doctrine of Karma when properly understood, is calculated to guide and assist those who realize the truth to a higher and better mode of life. Not only our actions, but our thoughts compel succeeding circumstances that will influence for good or evil our own future, and, more important still, the future of many of our fellow creatures. This causes consideration of our responsibility. This focuses on our application of justice, morality, and unselfishness - so necessary to future happiness and progress for ourselves and all around us. [ These passages will be found in the "Key to Theosophy" by HPB pp. 209 - 214 ] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:37:22 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: RE: Theos-World Re: JIVANMUKTA Nov 29th 1998 I employed the word "Ego" to mean the HIGHER MANAS. This I have learned and so repeat: It is one with and part of the triune Monad in manifestation and, in Man in incarnation. Our understanding of consciousness begins with differentiation, and when ultimately all is resolved back into ABSOLUTENESS at the end of the Kalpic Manvantara, CONSCIOUSNESS is also reabsorbed in that ineffable UNITY which is and is not. The Secret doctrine states that it is not "lost" or "obliterated" because thus reabsorbed, but in the economy of Nature every aspect is re-emanated when the new Maha Manvantara begins operation again. Cosmically it (CONSCIOUSNESS) is MAHAT or COSMIC IDEATION. Universal Karma is one of its aspects. The AKASA is its record and the Lipika are its scribes. In Man it (embodied "ray" of CONSCIOUSNESS is the Higher Manas linked indissolubly to BUDDHI and ATMA - just as Kosmically and metaphysically MAHAT is linked indissolubly to Maha Buddhi and to Atman. [ My sources for this definition and usage are THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY and THE SECRET DOCTRINE all by HPB.] Everything is CONSCIOUS. SPIRIT is the Universal source of all consciousness. In man the brain is the finest instrument of sensitive matter so far devised by Nature in her evolutionary program so that a ray from the HIGHER MANAS of each individual can reside and work. It is the LOWER MANAS and is closely linked to KAMA (passions and desires) which are a separate "principle" from "mind." Patanjali says II, 20, 21 : "The soul is the Perceiver; is assuredly vision itself pure and simple; unmodified; and looks directly upon ideas.(20) For the sake of the soul alone, the Universe exists." (21) In regard to the exercise of will on consciousness, Patanjali says: III, 1, 2, 3 : "Fixing the mind on a plane, object, or subject is ATTENTION. (1) The continuance of this attention is CONTEMPLATION. (2) This contemplation, when it is practiced only in respect to a material subject or object of sense, is MEDITATION. (3) I quote as these seem to be the most succinct descriptions of consciousness and its operation. There is implied, as I see it, an Egoic power which employs the will. The modifications of the mind are said to be five: correct cognition, misconception, fancy, sleep and memory. These modifications can be brought to an end by the exercise of the will which forces the mind into an unmoved state - the exercise of firmness out of regard for a chosen end to be achieved, and perseveringly adhered to for a long time without interruption. Dispassion is having overcome one's desires. Carried to its utmost it is indifference to all else but the "soul" (the HIGHER MANAS). Since we live in a world of many sensations and relations, this exercise is interior to the man or woman, and is an "inner attitude." It is not always made apparent or exposed to others, but it can be described - as Patanjali does in his YOGA SUTRAS. Other Sages like Shankaracharya speak of it in different ways. The whole system of the six schools of Indian Philosophy deal with consciousness from six different points of view, -- and, it is the seventh, the Sanatana Dharma (Theosophy in its modern guise) that reconciles all of those. That is as I understand the matter. I hope this explains what I said, Dallas >From: Jerry Schueler >Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 10:26 >Subject: Re: RE: Theos-World Re: JIVANMUKTA >I do not mean to confuse the issue, but as the CONSCIOUSNESS of >the Ego is always One, the vehicles through which it manifests >and over which the Ego has control seem to be refined - to be >spiritualized ? Dallas, please excuse me for jumping in here, but exactly what do you mean by "the consciousness of the Ego?" You seem to be implying that the Ego is an independent entity with its own consciousness. Also, what do you mean by "the Ego has control?" Is the Ego controlling the ego for each of us right now? What is free will? Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:09:29 EST From: ZZZLEEPER@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 25, 1998 Alan, Didst not Socrates know it was hemlock? Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 18:06:23 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theosophy and Alice Bailey Many have either heard about Alice Bailey's works and/have read about them. A well written article Theosophy's Shadow by Nicholas Weeks is, I believe, anyone interested in theosophy should read. Today I happend to read it and I think he has made a very valuable contribution by his well researched article. I leave it to each and everyone to read it and come to their own conclusion. Theosophy's Shadow by Nicholas Weeks. A critique of Alice Bailey and her claims. http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/baileyal.htm mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:24:11 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Who said what where and when? kymsmith@micron.net writes >My post was meant to be an example of how we seek answers to questions >everywhere and anywhere - but make sure to avoid the area right in front of >us (or within us). Indeed this is often the case, though I have learned (took a very long time) to value the reality that is right in front of me (often a cat, but all of the creatures get in the act). Within me - well that varies! > We limit our own lives and thoughts, and then sit and >sincerely ponder and pine over others doing the same. Don't you think we are wise to set limits? I do, for otherwise the burden might get too much, especially when considering some of the "hidden" realities. Like mink are killed by gassing them with carbon dioxide to make fur coats for rich people? They are bred for this. I certainly pine over such things ... I gave up eating meat for similar reasons, and I have not starved to death. > Maybe, for some of >us, the "glare" or light within us is seen as too much, too dazzling, to >view at this particular time. . .. I suspect this would be a small number of us (apart from thee and mee of course :0) ) > >Or maybe my post was simply BS - who knows? Dear Kym, you never post BS. Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:42:58 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 25, 1998 ZZZLEEPER@aol.com writes >Alan, > >Didst not Socrates know it was hemlock? So we are told - but to confirm it he had to drink it ... > Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 02:47:12 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 28, 1998 >A simple sentence like "Jerry, you are narrow-minded, illogical, limited in >scope, and unclear in thought; but I, Dallas the Great, am not." would have >summed up nicely what you wrote in way too many fluffy and phoney words. > >However, you have managed to master HPB's style of writing. . .I'm >impressed. > >Kym Ironically, this is a parody of Jerry's style... Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 02:16:30 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Who said what where and when? Excuse me for complaining again (so against my nature, you know), but posts forwarded from Theos-World and Theos-Talk leave those of us NOT subscribed to those lists with only a half-understanding of what the discussions are all about. These such posts are also edited and selected solely by the person forwarding them - leaving open even more room for misinterpretations and misunderstandings. If individuals desire to cross-post, well, fine and neato. However, despite the weighty difficulties, it would be fair and quite democratic to see the complete and uncensored posts which apply to particular threads. And, now. . .let us reflect back to a recent exchange of postings which pondered how and why Theosophical writings land upon the printing press suffering from a lack of "authenticity." Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 05:14:42 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Relativity, synchronisticity, quantum and chaos theories, Black Holes and Dark matter, etc, etc. Nov 28th 1998 Jerry writes: From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:41:39 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: One place where Judge is wrong Dallas had written: It [i.e.., Theosophy] is therefore complete in itself and sees no >insolvable mystery anywhere and hails the reign of law in everything and every >circumstance. Jerry comments: Albeit this misleading idea comes from Judge, it is nonetheless deterministic and as dead wrong as determinism. Alas, Judge didn't live to see modern chaos theory, or quantum mechanics, or even relativity, all of which have put severe limits on the ability of the human mind to understand things. Theosophy is not complete, there are insolvable mysteries which no amount of knowledge accumulation will ever solve, and the "reign of law" is not in everything because some things, like synchronistic events, are acausal. Jerry S. Dallas' rejoinder: Nov 28th 1998 Dear Jerry: Nature contains all and if you wish to call it deterministic, then so it is. That, however does not prevent the expression of your free-willed opinion or of those of anyone else. However, which of these many opinions are closest to the truth of things. ? Which are "universal ?" I do not feel imposed upon if I am shown that in ancient times, modern re-considerations were already matters for investigation, and that there is a record of those findings available to be re-checked and verified anew. All research, yours, mine, that of the academics and the orientalists is novel. It is reassuring to see that nothing is taken for granted and all is being rechecked. Is this not the unending search for truth ? Anything else would be reliance on "authority." And that is dangerous as "authority" always records the past and endeavors to force its conclusions on the present and the future. Personally I do not see anything "deterministic" in this as it is the expression, logically of the universal law of progress that rules from Kalpa to Kalpa and beyond. Our experience is only the latest attempt to verify and add our observations to the unending record of I think that all those subjects were known to the Adepts and to Judge and are not "new" because they have dawned on our scientific and philosophical world recently, If you consider the vastness of time and the fact that Theosophy is a record of the study of thousands of Adepts and their disciples over millions of years, our recent discoveries in the past 125 years are only a small scratch on the immensity of time. If one looks through the SD we can find plenty of examples where in different words "relativity," synchronisticity," "quantum theory," and "chaos theory" have all been discussed under the broad heading of Karma and the periodical alteration (cyclic) of physical and other phenomenal states.. At least it seems so to me and I do not feel overwhelmed by the appearance of these areas of discovery, or investigation. Now let us find out why it is so difficult for the psychological sciences to investigate altered states thoroughly and utilize the information so elaborately compiled by HPB and other students of Theosophy. Also why are the ethical and moral laws of the World and Universe not considered ? Why is it that reincarnation and the immortality of the Ego not considered and discussed as facts that can be investigated ? What about finding out if the seven-fold nature of the Universe and man are facts ? Does HPB and the Masters' system of Globes, Rounds, Races, Sub-Races, etc... have validity or not ? How does Karma mesh with Reincarnation and the Evolutionary program ? These are areas where I hope there will be some progress soon. Dallas ---------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:34:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Jerry's Responses to Dallas This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE1AD1.CDBF35A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Dear Jerry and Dan: > >If KARMA is a law it is a universal one. > It is so only as the Law of Causality. And this works, we now know, relative to an observer. >I am quite familiar with the concept of a Jivan-Mukta ( which in >English means : "free of this Life" ). > In that case, how can you persist in your definition of karma? >I did not invent the definition of Karma, nor did Mme. Blavatsky. >It is, she says (and so do the Hindu Pundits) the undeviating law >that balances all causes with their effects. No exceptions. > This is your interpretation, not mine. From a purely relative viewpoint, it often appears as if this were true. However, the Good News of Buddhism (the fourth nobel truth, I believe) is that karma can be eliminated or consumed. The Jivamukta is him/herself an exception so you are being contradictory here. >Our interpretations are valid so long as they are ours and may >please our minds, but the real question, to my mind is: Are they >Universally valid ? Are we in effect devising our own >limitations and exceptions, or are we studying the LAW as it is ? > Human beings are incapable of studying the "LAW as it is" whatever that is (?) any more than studying truth as it is.=20 It is not a question of just needing more data. Truth is not deterministic. If anything, it has both linear and nonlinear components like all living things. >I think we may always disagree on interpretations so long as they >are personal. However the resolution becomes common when and if >we can perceive a universally similar definition. > So far we haven't seen very many of these, have we? BTW, all interpretations are personal and subject to disagreement just like all observations (experiences) are. When we collectively agree on something, we call it a law. But this only lasts until an Einstein comes along and shows everyone how wrong they=20 were. >Lets take the case of a JIVANMUKTA. "An adept or yogi who has >reached the ultimate state of holiness and separated himself from >matter; a Mahatma, or Nirvanee, a "dweller in bliss" and >emancipation. Virtually one who has reached Nirvana during >life.: [Theos. Glos. pp 165-6] > This may be where we are having problems, Dallas. You are quoting HPB who does NOT use the term in the way Hinduism uses it. I prefer the Hindu definition: a person who is living (a jiva is a living being) who is free of karma (mukti means liberated).=20 HPB has it completely backwards. She thinks it refers to a discarnate being, but actually it has always referred to a living embodied human being who acts without producing=20 future karma (ie., a living Buddha). >NIRVANI: "It is "escape from misery"... All of this stuff is meaningless, Dallas. The jivamukta (one who is living as a jivamukti) has nothing at all to do with nirvana. Please read some Hindu texts on the subject. >PRATYEKHA BUDDHA "...A DEGREE THAT BELONGS ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY TO >THE Yogacharya school, yet it is only one of high intellectual >development with no true spirituality. > Phooey! Where did you ever come up with this wild idea?? If this is HPB, then once again she is wrong. According to the=20 Mahayana and Vajrayana, the Pratyekha Buddha (the=20 rhinocerous or lonely one) is a very spiritual Buddhist (arhat) of=20 the Theravadin school who understands emptiness but who fails=20 to equate it with bliss. H/She is a buddha without compassion for=20 others because he recognizes that "others" are maya and must work out their own salvation. To say that any kind of Buddha is lacking in spirituality is a true insult and shows ignorance of the Buddhist state. Even most Tibetan Vajrayanists=20 don't insult the Pretyekha Buddhas, although they do consider the Bodhisattva to be superior. >It is the dead-letter of the Yoga laws, in which intellect and >comprehension play the greatest part... Again, I don't agree with any of this and it is teribly insulting. As far as "intellect and comprehension play the greatest part" I see this as THE major problem in modern Theosophy. >The Pratyekhas are respected outwardly but are despised inwardly >by those of keen or spiritual appreciation....He is far below a >true "Buddha of Compassion." >T. Glos. p. 261 > Well, I have read a lot of the new Tibetan works recently published and have yet to find a single reference to this "despised inwardly" business. A true Teacher of any school doesn't inwardly despise any other person. I am not surprised at HPB saying such a thing,=20 because she always did get overly emotional on certain points. She=20 was trying to make a point, and used emotion overmuch. I agree with her point (i.e., that the Bodhisattva is superior to the Pretyekha) but not with the insulting rhetoric used. >TRIYANA "The three vehicles across Sansara-the ocean of births, >deaths, and rebirths are the three vehicles called Sravaka, >Pratyekha Buddha and Bodhisattva, or the three degrees of >Yogaship.=20 She left out the Tantrayana and Mantrayana, both valid paths. > The term Triyana is also used to denote the three >schools of mysticism-the Mahayana, Madhyimayana and Hinayana >schools. [Greater, Middle and Lesser Vehicles]=20 The Madhyimayana is not considered a true path so much as a "school." She missed Vajrayana, the Tibetan path which is amazing considering how she is supposed to have known all about Tibetan Buddhism. >All and every >system between the Greater and the Lesser Vehicles are considered >"useless."=20 The Greater and Lesser are names given by the Greater and is an insult to the "lesser" which is nowdays called the Theravadin school. Even most Tibetans nowdays apologise for using the perjorative term Lesser. > Therefore... the Pratyekha Buddha state refers to him >who lives all for himself and very little for others, occupying >the middle of the vehicle, filling it all and leaving no room for >others." Such is the selfish candidate for Nirvana." Theos. >Gloss p. 344-5. > Seen from the viewpoint of the Bodhisattva, it does seem a bit selfish, albeit this is a subjective call. The Pretyekha does not consider him/herself to be selfish. > >While these quotes that are descriptive settle nothing, they do >give a base for considering what Jerry offers. > I have been trying to explain some differences between HPB and modern Tibetan teachings. Those who read only HPB will come away with some distorted views of Buddhism. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE1AD1.CDBF35A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Dear Jerry and Dan:
>
>If KARMA is a law it = is a=20 universal one.
>

It is so only as the Law of Causality. And = this=20 works, we now know,
relative to an observer.


>I am = quite=20 familiar with the concept of a Jivan-Mukta ( which in
>English = means :=20 "free of this Life" ).
>

In that case, how can = you=20 persist in your definition of karma?


>I did not invent the = definition of Karma, nor did Mme. Blavatsky.
>It is, she says (and = so do=20 the Hindu Pundits) the undeviating law
>that balances all causes = with=20 their effects.  No exceptions.
>

This is your = interpretation,=20 not mine. From a purely relative
viewpoint, it often appears as if = this were=20 true. However,
the Good News of Buddhism (the fourth nobel truth, I=20 believe)
is that karma can be eliminated or consumed.  The=20 Jivamukta
is him/herself an exception so you are being contradictory=20 here.


>Our interpretations are valid so long as they are = ours and=20 may
>please our minds, but the real question, to my mind is:  = Are=20 they
>Universally valid ?  Are we in effect devising our=20 own
>limitations and exceptions, or are we studying the LAW as it = is=20 ?
>

Human beings are incapable of studying the "LAW as = it=20 is"
whatever that is (?) any more than studying truth as it is. =
It=20 is not a question of just needing more data. Truth is=20 not
deterministic.  If anything, it has both linear and=20 nonlinear
components like all living things.


>I think = we may=20 always disagree on interpretations so long as they
>are = personal. =20 However the resolution becomes common when and if
>we can perceive = a=20 universally similar definition.
>

So far we haven't seen = very many=20 of these, have we? BTW,
all interpretations are personal and subject = to=20 disagreement
just like all observations (experiences) are. When we=20 collectively
agree on something, we call it a law. But this only = lasts=20 until
an Einstein comes along and shows everyone how wrong they=20
were.


>Lets take the case of a JIVANMUKTA.  = "An=20 adept or yogi who has
>reached the ultimate state of holiness and=20 separated himself from
>matter;  a Mahatma, or Nirvanee, a=20 "dweller in bliss" and
>emancipation.  Virtually = one who=20 has reached Nirvana during
>life.:  [Theos. Glos. pp=20 165-6]
>

This may be where we are having problems, Dallas. = You=20 are
quoting HPB who does NOT use the term in the way Hinduism
uses = it. I=20 prefer the Hindu definition: a person who is living (a jiva
is a = living=20 being) who is free of karma (mukti means liberated).
HPB has it = completely=20 backwards. She thinks it refers to a
discarnate being, but actually = it has=20 always referred to a
living embodied human being who acts without = producing=20
future karma (ie., a living = Buddha).



>NIRVANI: =20 "It is "escape from misery"...

All of this stuff = is=20 meaningless, Dallas. The jivamukta (one who
is living as a jivamukti) = has=20 nothing at all to do with nirvana.
Please read some Hindu texts on = the=20 subject.


>PRATYEKHA BUDDHA "...A DEGREE THAT BELONGS = ALMOST=20 EXCLUSIVELY TO
>THE Yogacharya school, yet it is only one of high=20 intellectual
>development with no true=20 spirituality.
>

Phooey!  Where did you ever come up = with this=20 wild idea??
If this is HPB, then once again she is wrong. According = to the=20
Mahayana and Vajrayana, the Pratyekha Buddha (the
rhinocerous or = lonely=20 one) is a very spiritual Buddhist (arhat) of
the Theravadin school = who=20 understands emptiness but who fails
to equate it with bliss. H/She = is a=20 buddha without compassion for
others because he recognizes that=20 "others" are maya and
must work out their own salvation. To = say=20 that any kind of
Buddha is lacking in spirituality is a true insult = and=20 shows
ignorance of the Buddhist state. Even most Tibetan Vajrayanists =
don't insult the Pretyekha Buddhas, although they do consider=20 the
Bodhisattva to be superior.


>It is the dead-letter = of the=20 Yoga laws, in which intellect and
>comprehension play the greatest = part...

Again, I don't agree with any of this and it is teribly=20 insulting.
As far as "intellect and comprehension play the = greatest=20 part"
I see this as THE major problem in modern=20 Theosophy.


>The Pratyekhas are respected outwardly but = are =20 despised inwardly
>by those of keen or spiritual = appreciation....He is far=20 below a
>true "Buddha of Compassion."
>T. Glos. p. = 261
>

Well, I have read a lot of the new Tibetan works = recently=20 published
and have yet to find a single reference to this = "despised=20 inwardly"
business. A true Teacher of any school doesn't = inwardly=20 despise
any other person. I am not surprised at HPB saying such a = thing,=20
because she always did get overly emotional on certain points. She =
was=20 trying to make a point, and used emotion overmuch. I agree with
her = point=20 (i.e., that the Bodhisattva is superior to the Pretyekha)
but not = with the=20 insulting rhetoric used.


>TRIYANA "The three vehicles = across=20 Sansara-the ocean of births,
>deaths, and rebirths are the three = vehicles=20 called Sravaka,
>Pratyekha Buddha and Bodhisattva, or the three = degrees=20 of
>Yogaship.

She left out the Tantrayana and Mantrayana, = both=20 valid paths.


> The term Triyana is also used to denote the = three
>schools of mysticism-the Mahayana, Madhyimayana and=20 Hinayana
>schools.  [Greater, Middle and Lesser Vehicles] =

The=20 Madhyimayana is not considered a true path so much as
a=20 "school."  She missed Vajrayana, the Tibetan path which=20 is
amazing considering how she is supposed to have known all
about = Tibetan=20 Buddhism.


>All and every
>system between the Greater = and the=20 Lesser Vehicles are considered
>"useless."

The = Greater=20 and Lesser are names given by the Greater and is
an insult to the=20 "lesser" which is nowdays called the Theravadin
school. = Even most=20 Tibetans nowdays apologise for using the
perjorative term=20 Lesser.


> Therefore... the Pratyekha Buddha state refers = to=20 him
>who lives all for himself and very little for others,=20 occupying
>the middle of the vehicle, filling it all and leaving = no room=20 for
>others."  Such is the selfish candidate for=20 Nirvana."  Theos.
>Gloss p. 344-5.
>

Seen = from the=20 viewpoint of the Bodhisattva, it does seem
a bit selfish, albeit this = is a=20 subjective call. The Pretyekha
does not consider him/herself to be=20 selfish.


>
>While these quotes that are descriptive = settle=20 nothing, they do
>give a base for considering what Jerry=20 offers.
>

I have been trying to explain some differences = between=20 HPB
and modern Tibetan teachings. Those who read only HPB
will = come away=20 with some distorted views of Buddhism.

Jerry = S.
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BE1AD1.CDBF35A0-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:51:27 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: One place where Judge is wrong >Albeit this misleading idea comes from Judge, it is nonetheless >deterministic and as dead wrong as determinism. Alas, >Judge didn't live to see modern chaos theory, or quantum >mechanics, or even relativity, all of which have put severe >limits on the ability of the human mind to understand things. So what? Every serious student of the theosophical standard literature knows that the theos. teachings contain not only what this present theories offer, but they go far beyond of them. >Theosophy is not complete, there are insolvable mysteries >which no amount of knowlege accumulation will ever solve, Very deterministic, indeed! How can you be sure that nobody has solves it? What is your measure? Yourself? >and the "reign of law" is not in everything because some >things, like synchronistic events, are acausal. > >Jerry S. The last is wrong too. The chaos theory says *not* that some things are acausal. It says that they *seem* to be it, but when observing a chaotic event from a higher level, with more data the chaos becomes a cosmos. Chaos is but only our maya, that means our limited senses. For example: Imagine someone out of an African native tribe who has never seen before civilization is shown a highway. He will find nothing else than chaos: Suddenly a little red car changes the track, then a big track is coming, soon turning to the right track, then comes a blue car which is horning, etc, etc. Really a chaos. Why is the red car slower than the blue? Why is sometimes a blue car horning, sometimes a yellow car? Why some cars are driving straight ahead while other cars are turning left and right? But in reality all car holders are true to "unknown" traffic rules. That is the explanation of chaos theory. And that is indeed explained very well in the Secret Doctrine and in the commentaries by Judge, don't? There is nothing new under the sun, especially not in western science. Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 19:37:26 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World Jerry's Response concerning what Dan had written == ON KARMA with Dal Nov 28th 1998 Dallas comments below >From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 >Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 8:58 >From: Jerry Schueler >Subject: Re: Theos-World Jerry's Response concerning what Dan had written == ON KARMA with Dal > >Dear Jerry and Dan: > >If KARMA is a law it is a universal one. > It is so only as the Law of Causality. And this works, we now know, relative to an observer. DALLAS BUT, WHAT IS ITS SOURCE AND ITS COURSE - WHY IS IT THERE, AND DOES IT OR DOES IT NOT RULE THE UNIVERSE AS WELL AS MANKIND AND THEIR INTERACTION AS UNITS ? TO ME KARMA IS THE WHOLE LAW OF INTERACTION AND BROTHERHOOD AND NOT LIMITED TO MANKIND ONLY. >I am quite familiar with the concept of a Jivan-Mukta ( which in >English means : "free of this Life" ). > In that case, how can you persist in your definition of karma? Dallas Because of the immortal "ray" of the ONE SPRIT - THE ABSOLUTENESS - in which all manifested beings bathe, without exception - it gives the Atom its life as well as the man and the Universe. No limits. Karma is therefore also unlimited but very real (on any plane from low to high) as "the laws of interaction and evolution." >I did not invent the definition of Karma, nor did Mme. Blavatsky. >It is, she says (and so do the Hindu Pundits) the undeviating law >that balances all causes with their effects. No exceptions. > This is your interpretation, not mine. From a purely relative viewpoint, it often appears as if this were true. However, the Good News of Buddhism (the fourth noble truth, I believe) is that karma can be eliminated or consumed. The Jivanmukta is him/herself an exception so you are being contradictory here. DALLAS HARDLY - IF YOU WILL WIDEN YOUR HORIZONS THE LOGIC OUGHT TO BE CLEAR. IF YOU CAN ADVANCE YOUR LIMITATIONS, THEN WE CAN UNDERSTAND YOU AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE THE CONDITIONS YOU LOOK AT. OBVIOUSLY OURS MAY BE DIFFERENT, BUT THEN, THOSE CAN BE ADJUSTED ONCE THAT YOURS BECOME CLEAR. >Our interpretations are valid so long as they are ours and may >please our minds, but the real question, to my mind is: Are they >Universally valid ? Are we in effect devising our own >limitations and exceptions, or are we studying the LAW as it is ? > Human beings are incapable of studying the "LAW as it is" whatever that is (?) any more than studying truth as it is. It is not a question of just needing more data. Truth is not deterministic. If anything, it has both linear and nonlinear components like all living things. DALLAS I WOULD NOT AGREE TO THIS INVALIDITY OF STUDY, INASMUCH AS THE UNIVERSAL SPIRITUAL "RAY" IS AS MUCH PRESENT IN "YOU" AS IT IS IN "MYSELF," AND HENCE THE "STUDY" IS AN INWARD LOOKING TO OUR OWN PRESENCE AND REASON FOR BEING. There is no question that if we set limits to KARMA then those limits we set prevent us from seeing beyond them. Others like me come along and claim to see further. Is that true or is it to be inquired into, or to be rejected -- because not yet in the range of our own seeing ? I do not know. That is for you to say. I do observe that (to me) and as a result of our many exchanges, I think that my horizon may be somewhat wider. [I do not know if I am better or worse as a result, and comparisons, in any case are odious. But I do know that I value your point of view.] I could be quite wrong in all this, but it seems to me that we ought to be able to look further than the exoteric teachings handed down to us by one of the schools of Buddhism. There were others, as well as an esoteric one, I am given to understand, which the Buddha used in connection with the instruction of his close and deeply inquiring disciples. Perhaps Theosophy - which has opened so many doors that explain the myths and mysteries of ancient writings and thought is in line with this esoteric Buddhistic school. >I think we may always disagree on interpretations so long as they >are personal. However the resolution becomes common when and if >we can perceive a universally similar definition. > So far we haven't seen very many of these, have we? BTW, all interpretations are personal and subject to disagreement just like all observations (experiences) are. When we collectively agree on something, we call it a law. But this only lasts until an Einstein comes along and shows everyone how wrong they were. DALLAS AN EXCELLENT ANALOGY - NOW LETS GO FIND AN EINSTEIN in the area of WISDOM TO HELP US IN THIS. >Lets take the case of a JIVANMUKTA. "An adept or yogi who has >reached the ultimate state of holiness and separated himself from >matter; a Mahatma, or Nirvanee, a "dweller in bliss" and >emancipation. Virtually one who has reached Nirvana during >life.: [Theos. Glos. pp 165-6] > This may be where we are having problems, Dallas. You are quoting HPB who does NOT use the term in the way Hinduism uses it. I prefer the Hindu definition: a person who is living (a jiva is a living being) who is free of karma (mukti means liberated). HPB has it completely backwards. She thinks it refers to a discarnate being, but actually it has always referred to a living embodied human being who acts without producing future karma (ie., a living Buddha). DALLAS NO. I DO NOT FIND THAT HPB THINKS OF A DISINCARNATE BEING. IT IS A STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS WHERE THE ONE CONSCIOUSNESS IS ABLE TO CONTROL THE PERSONALITY SO PERFECTLY THAT ADVERSE KARMA WHICH DISTURBS THE UNIVERSE IS NOT DONE. >NIRVANI: "It is "escape from misery"... All of this stuff is meaningless, Dallas. The Jivanmukta (one who is living as a jivamukti) has nothing at all to do with nirvana. Please read some Hindu texts on the subject. Dallas Have read many. Found the theosophic to be the most eclectic. Spent about 35 years in India and many hours at the royal Asiatic Society Library and that of the Bombay University, etc., etc. >PRATYEKHA BUDDHA "...A DEGREE THAT BELONGS ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY TO >THE Yogacharya school, yet it is only one of high intellectual >development with no true spirituality. > Phooey! Where did you ever come up with this wild idea?? If this is HPB, then once again she is wrong. According to the Mahayana and Vajrayana, the Pratyekha Buddha (the rhinoceros or lonely one) is a very spiritual Buddhist (arhat) of the Theravadin school who understands emptiness but who fails to equate it with bliss. H/She is a buddha without compassion for others because he recognizes that "others" are maya and must work out their own salvation. To say that any kind of Buddha is lacking in spirituality is a true insult and shows ignorance of the Buddhist state. Even most Tibetan Vajrayanists don't insult the Pretyekha Buddhas, although they do consider the Bodhisattva to be superior. DALLAS DEFINITIONS CLASH. SELFISHNESS AT ANY LEVEL IS ONLY A DETERRENT TO TRUE WISDOM AND APPLIED UNIVERSALITY. THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW DOES ONE LEARN TO "ACT WITHOUT CONCERN FOR THE RESULT" AS KRISHNA PUTS IT IN THE B. Gita. >It is the dead-letter of the Yoga laws, in which intellect and >comprehension play the greatest part... Again, I don't agree with any of this and it is terribly insulting. As far as "intellect and comprehension play the greatest part" I see this as THE major problem in modern Theosophy. DALLAS I DON'T GET THE NATURE OF THE INSULT - WHAT IS IT ? Theosophy is not out to insult anyone but to make us think. It may be shocking to a line of thought that someone has developed. Why is that so ? What you say does not shock me, but it does intrigue me. >The Pratyekhas are respected outwardly but are despised inwardly >by those of keen or spiritual appreciation....He is far below a >true "Buddha of Compassion." >T. Glos. p. 261 > Well, I have read a lot of the new Tibetan works recently published and have yet to find a single reference to this "despised inwardly" business. A true Teacher of any school doesn't inwardly despise any other person. I am not surprised at HPB saying such a thing, because she always did get overly emotional on certain points. She was trying to make a point, and used emotion overmuch. I agree with her point (i.e., that the Bodhisattva is superior to the Pretyekha) but not with the insulting rhetoric used. DALLAS ONE THING THAT IS NOT MADE ENTIRELY CLEAR TO ENQUIRERS INTO TIBETAN LORE IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SCRIPTURES OF THE "RIGHT-HAND PATH," AND THOSE OF THE "LEFT-HAND PATH." Most students and orientalists mix these up and think that they represent a single system of thought and study. I think you already know this, as well as the many divergent and congruent sub-divisions of this basic dichotomy. WELL, AGAIN OPINIONS ARE CROSSING SWORDS - BUT, I WOULD SAY THAT HPB IN HER ANALYSIS OF THE HUMAN PRINCIPLES OFFERS A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING THE "EMOTIONS" AND THE "PASSIONS" -- AS HAVING A BEING AND QUALITY THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THE MIND. OF COURSE THE KAMIC PRINCIPLE OF PASSIONS AND DESIRES (TAKEN AS A WHOLE) DO NOT LIKE THIS. BUT WHAT HAS THEIR LIKING OR DISLIKING TO DO WITH IT. WE ARE STUDYING THEM AND THIS IS ALL INTERNAL TO US - A REVIEW OF OUR OWN PSYCHOLOGY AND MOTIVES. >TRIYANA "The three vehicles across Sansara-the ocean of births, >deaths, and rebirths are the three vehicles called Sravaka, >Pratyekha Buddha and Bodhisattva, or the three degrees of >Yogaship. She left out the Tantrayana and Mantrayana, both valid paths. DALLAS I AM FAMILIAR WITH THE TEACHINGS OF BOTH OF THESE, BUT ASK MYSELF: WHAT IS THE MOTIVE BEHIND THEIR USE. They mention and describe systems of practice in the areas of developing self-awareness and the employment of "powers" for personal effect and results. Again we are back to motive - the reason why we do anything. That is the important thing to me. > The term Triyana is also used to denote the three >schools of mysticism-the Mahayana, Madhyimayana and Hinayana >schools. [Greater, Middle and Lesser Vehicles] The Madhyimayana is not considered a true path so much as a "school." She missed Vajrayana, the Tibetan path which is amazing considering how she is supposed to have known all about Tibetan Buddhism. Dallas again I ask: what is the motive behind the use of the power that the Vajra represents. It corresponds to the two edged sword of "Ceremonial Magic." >All and every >system between the Greater and the Lesser Vehicles are considered >"useless." The Greater and Lesser are names given by the Greater and is an insult to the "lesser" which is nowadays called the Theravadin school. Even most Tibetans nowadays apologize for using the pejorative term Lesser. Dallas: that may be so, but the reason for adopting that term originally was to distinguish clearly between the selfish "magic" of the personality which employs motives directed to its own limited life - this single incarnation; and, that "magic" which deals with the work of the divine Ego that lives through many lives and accumulates the fruit of its progress towards brotherhood, mutual assistance, and general benevolence. This latter is unselfish, generous, ideal, and altruistic. The former is not. > Therefore... the Pratyekha Buddha state refers to him >who lives all for himself and very little for others, occupying >the middle of the vehicle, filling it all and leaving no room for >others." Such is the selfish candidate for Nirvana." Theos. >Gloss p. 344-5. > Seen from the viewpoint of the Bodhisattva, it does seem a bit selfish, albeit this is a subjective call. The Pretyekha does not consider him/herself to be selfish. DALLAS THAT IS TRUE, FROM HIS VIEW-POINT. BUT TAKEN IN THE MORE UNIVERSAL SENSE IT IS, AND HENCE THE OPINIONS HELD CONCERNING THEM. > >While these quotes that are descriptive settle nothing, they do >give a base for considering what Jerry offers. > I have been trying to explain some differences between HPB and modern Tibetan teachings. Those who read only HPB will come away with some distorted views of Buddhism. DALLAS I AGREE IF THAT IS THEIR SOLE BASE, HOWEVER I HAVE NOT FOUND HPB TO BE UNTRUE OR UNFAIR TO ANYONE IN HER NARRATION OF THE ESOTERIC PHILOSOPHY. Jerry S. Best wishes as always, Dallas -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 19:37:31 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: FW: Relativity, synchronisticity, quantum and chaos theories, Black Holes and Dark matter, etc, etc. Nov 28th 1998 The enclosed is offered in addition to remarks already posted Dallas >Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 8:57 >From: Pete [mailto:Pete@village.uunet.be] >Subject: Re: Relativity, synchronisticity, quantum and chaos theories, Black Holes and Dark matter, etc, etc. Hi Dallas, can't let this opportunity go by without replying to Jerry Schuelers' comments regarding Judges' or either of your quotes. Please post this to the usual server where people get in touch, as I'm not acquainted with this stuff. Thanks, Pete. FOLLOWS PETE'S REPLY: Pete's reply to Jerry Schueller: When either Dallas or Mr. Judge refers to Theosophy as complete in itself. we obviously refer to THEOSOPHY as the "Horn of plenty or Cornucopia" as related in the 1st item of the SD where it is said that "The flashing gaze of those seers has penetrated into the very kernel of matter, and recorded the soul of things, where an ordinary profane, however learned, would have perceived but the external work of form", and not to the fragments of it as recorded by either HPB or Judge. Both we and quantum physicists -however penetrating their instruments may be, since the result of what they interpret, remains on "the external work" of perception- are for the time being, limited to our brain consciousness and its ramifications into myriad of theories. Using the word determinism is just a pretext for evading the rationale behind the theosophical point of view, in the same fasion as people who say they don't believe in anything, in the mean time not realising that "not believing in anything" constitutes a belief as well, or people who say they don't want to phylosophize, not realising that what they say is a philosophical statement! Jerry may not realise that his statement is as guilty of determinism as the people he blames for the same. When we view nature from a physical point of view, determinism is obviously present and a necessity or there would be no evolution at all and that's why it's been noticed by their adherents, but it is not the final perception of things! The "severe limits on the ability of the human mind to understand things" as Jerry puts it quite correctly, may be improved upon by adding the word "lower" to his expression of the human mind. If we add to this that intuition is very often the breakthrough experience which allows scientists to improve upon their understanding, we come to realise that there is more to the mind than we can see, * There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy- and it is usually this intuition which is responsible for the real progress in science! So, is it "Theosophy that is not complete" or our understanding of things? Knowledge in itself is just a pronounced or written concept, what we do need is not more knowledge but more insight in the knowledge that is already presented, both by science and Theosophy, and applied insight is Wisdom. Just as disbelief constitutes a belief as well, so "acausality" is part and parcel of the "reign of law". This concept -and relativity theory as well- has been again and again * albeit with different words- explained by HPB with relation to the Arupa states. It is not because "we" do not perceive the "causes" behind for instance "synchronistic events" that we may conclude that "causes" are altogether absolutely absent. Twist the words as much as you can, but from no-thing comes no-thing! Chaos-theory just points to the fact that life finds its equilibrium at the verge of order and dis-order and constitutes in the words of David Bohm exactly an "Implicit Order". Remember, that in antiquity, the expression Chaos refered to the homogeneity of undifferentiated cosmic substance -before differentiation- (do I hear anyone shout pre-big-bang concept ?) and not to disorder. Pete. "W. Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Nov 28th 1998 > > Jerry writes: > > Subject: One place where Judge is wrong > From: "Jerry Schueler" > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:41:39 -0500 > X-Message-Number: 1 > > Dallas had written: > > It [i.e.., Theosophy] is therefore complete in itself and sees no > >insolvable mystery anywhere and hails the reign of law in > everything and every > >circumstance. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Jerry comments: > > Albeit this misleading idea comes from Judge, it is nonetheless > deterministic and as dead wrong as determinism. Alas, > Judge didn't live to see modern chaos theory, or quantum > mechanics, or even relativity, all of which have put severe > limits on the ability of the human mind to understand things. > Theosophy is not complete, there are insolvable mysteries > which no amount of knowledge accumulation will ever solve, > and the "reign of law" is not in everything because some > things, like synchronistic events, are acausal. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:48:50 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Who said what where and when? kymsmith@micron.net writes >And, now. . .let us reflect back to a recent exchange of postings which >pondered how and why Theosophical writings land upon the printing press >suffering from a lack of "authenticity." That's an awful lot of reflecting - we shall all be dazzled by the glare. Alan :0) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:41:39 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: One place where Judge is wrong >It [ie., Theosophy] is therefore complete in itself and sees no >insolvable mystery >anywhere and hails the reign of law in everything and every >circumstance. Albeit this misleading idea comes from Judge, it is nonetheless deterministic and as dead wrong as determinism. Alas, Judge didn't live to see modern chaos theory, or quantum mechanics, or even relativity, all of which have put severe limits on the ability of the human mind to understand things. Theosophy is not complete, there are insolvable mysteries which no amount of knowlege accumulation will ever solve, and the "reign of law" is not in everything because some things, like synchronistic events, are acausal. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:46:21 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World Jerry's Response concerning what Dan had written == ON KARMA with Dal Nov 27th 1998 Dear Jerry and Dan: If KARMA is a law it is a universal one. I am quite familiar with the concept of a Jivan-Mukta ( which in English means : "free of this Life" ). I did not invent the definition of Karma, nor did Mme. Blavatsky. It is, she says (and so do the Hindu Pundits) the undeviating law that balances all causes with their effects. No exceptions. Our interpretations are valid so long as they are ours and may please our minds, but the real question, to my mind is: Are they Universally valid ? Are we in effect devising our own limitations and exceptions, or are we studying the LAW as it is ? I think we may always disagree on interpretations so long as they are personal. However the resolution becomes common when and if we can perceive a universally similar definition. Lets take the case of a JIVANMUKTA. "An adept or yogi who has reached the ultimate state of holiness and separated himself from matter; a Mahatma, or Nirvanee, a "dweller in bliss" and emancipation. Virtually one who has reached Nirvana during life.: [Theos. Glos. pp 165-6] NIRVANI: "It is "escape from misery" but only from that of matter or the physical world;" freedom from Klesha, or Kama, and the complete extinction of animal desires. ..and simply because the physical world is illusion, maya. Sakyamuni Buddha said in the last moments of his life that "the spiritual body is immortal." ...Nirvana negatively is a state of absolute exemption from all forms of existence; to begin with freedom from all passion and exertion; a state of indifference to all sensibility" - and he might have added "death of all compassion for the world of suffering." And this is why the Bodhisattvas who prefer Nirmanakaya to the Dharmakaya vesture, stand higher in the popular estimation that the Nirvanis..."Positively (and esoterically) they define Nirvana as the highest state of spiritual bliss, as absolute immortality through absorption of the soul (spirit rather) into itself, but preserving individuality so that, e.g., Buddhas, after entering Nirvana, may reappear on earth." - i.e., in the future Manvantara. (SD II 232) Theos. Glos. p. 232 PRATYEKHA BUDDHA "...A DEGREE THAT BELONGS ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY TO THE Yogacharya school, yet it is only one of high intellectual development with no true spirituality. It is the dead-letter of the Yoga laws, in which intellect and comprehension play the greatest part, added to the strict carrying out of the rules of the inner development. It is one of the three paths to Nirvana, and the lowest, in which a Yogi-"without teacher and without saving others" - by mere force of will and technical observances, attains to a kind of nominal Buddhaship individually; doing no good to anyone, but working selfishly for his own salvation and himself alone. The Pratyekhas are respected outwardly but are despised inwardly by those of keen or spiritual appreciation....He is far below a true "Buddha of Compassion." T. Glos. p. 261 TRIYANA "The three vehicles across Sansara-the ocean of births, deaths, and rebirths are the three vehicles called Sravaka, Pratyekha Buddha and Bodhisattva, or the three degrees of Yogaship. The term Triyana is also used to denote the three schools of mysticism-the Mahayana, Madhyimayana and Hinayana schools. [Greater, Middle and Lesser Vehicles] All and every system between the Greater and the Lesser Vehicles are considered "useless." Therefore... the Pratyekha Buddha state refers to him who lives all for himself and very little for others, occupying the middle of the vehicle, filling it all and leaving no room for others." Such is the selfish candidate for Nirvana." Theos. Gloss p. 344-5. While these quotes that are descriptive settle nothing, they do give a base for considering what Jerry offers. His views on Karma are apparently limited to this Manvantara, (4,320,000,000 years) or Kalpa (a larger period of 311,040,000,000,000 years) only. But when they are considered with the total background of interaction on a KOSMIC or Universal scale, those selective limitations can be seen as such. What is wrong with a Universe that runs by immutable law ? Why should humans be exempt from ethical or moral law as it is applied by Nature without deviation to all humans in whatever time or circumstance ? How can anyone proceed to improve or visualize "Perfection" unless there is a certainty that lawful living will lead thereto, even if Jivankukti or Nirvanee is the chosen goal ? Dal. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 04:22:51 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Intelligence & Intellect Here is a quote I saw in another maillist. mkr ========================== Krishnamurti: Training the intellect does not result in intelligence. Rather, intelligence comes into being when one acts in perfect harmony, both intellectually and emotionally. There is a vast difference between intellect and intelligence. Intellect is merely thought functioning independently of emotion. When intellect, irrespective of emotion, is trained in a particular direction, one may have great intellect, but one does not have intelligence, because in intelligence there is the inherent capacity to feel as well as to reason; in intelligence both capacities are equally present, intensely and harmoniously. ...If you bring your emotions into business, you say, business cannot be well-managed or be honest. So you divide your mind into compartments: in one compartment you keep your religious interest, in another your emotions, in a third your business interest which has nothing to do with your intellectual and emotional life. Your business mind treats life merely as a means of getting money in order to live. So this chaotic existence, this division of life continues. If you really used your intelligence in business, that is, if your emotions and your thoughts were acting harmoniously, your business might fail. It probably would. And you will probably let it fail when your eally feel the absurdity, the cruelty, and the exploitation that is involoved in this way of living. Until you really approach life with your intelligence, instead of merely with your intellect, no system in the world will save man from the ceaseless toil for bread. (source: The Book of Life, which cites the collected works of K, vol. I, pp.115-16) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:08:23 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Copyright I ran into a website which has copyright expiration clearly explained. The site is: http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm An interesting item I noted was that all publications before 1923 is in Public Domain, which means all the theosophical classics are in public domain. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:23:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Round and round and round At 12:14 AM 11/26/1998 +0000, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >M K Ramadoss writes Don't look at me, though. I've not a clue to what "I" am or what the universe" is or what "Beness" is - probably just all words for the same thing. . .as are ALL words, really. Hmmm, Jerry's question number three??? Kym You are not alone. Looking for someone who knows about these things first hand and can be independently verified. >Dearest Doss, You have said this before, and having had some first hand experience, I offered to discuss with you privately, which you decline to do. I am sure I am not the only person on the list(s) who could make the same offer. Don't you trust us? Familiarity often breeds not contempt, but indifference and lack of confidence. Alan< Dearest Alan: I need to clarify where I stand. Let me be factual. There are so many things about which I know nothing about as such I am open minded to listen to anyone on any topic. If I did not followup with a request to you to send me your personal experience privately, it is because I may not have paid much attention to the particular msg or time pressure or both. It is definitely not all due to contempt/indifference/lack of confidence. I am really eager to know about yours experience. I also welcome any one else's private communication of any of their experiences. Hope this should clear up the matter. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:53:01 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: THEOSOPHY and the MAHATMAS THEOSOPHY is that ocean of knowledge which spreads from shore to shore of the evolution of sentient beings. Unfathomable in its deepest parts, it gives the greatest minds their fullest scope yet, shallow enough at its shores, it will not overwhelm the understanding of a child. It is wisdom about God for those who believe that he is all things and in all, and wisdom about nature for the man who accepts the statement...that God cannot be measured or discovered. Although it contains by derivation the name God [theos] and thus may seem at first sight to embrace religion alone, it does not neglect science, for it is the science of sciences, and therefore has been called the WISDOM RELIGION For no science is complete which leaves out any department of nature, whether visible or invisible. Embracing both the scientific and the religious, Theosophy is a scientific religion and a religious science. It is not a belief or a dogma or invented by man, but is a knowledge of the laws which govern the evolution of the physical, astral, psychical, and intellectual constituents of man and nature. Theosophy knows that the whole is constituted of the visible and the invisible, and perceiving outer things and objects to be but transitory [Maya] it grasps the facts of nature, both without and within. It is therefore complete in itself and sees no insolvable mystery anywhere and hails the reign of law in everything and every circumstance. Theosophy holds that Man is a Soul. Further, that all Nature is sentient, and that the vast array of objects and men are not mere collections of atoms fortuitously thrown together, and thus, without law - evolving LAW; but down to the smallest atom all is soul and spirit ever evolving under the rule of LAW, which is inherent in the whole. The course of evolution is the drama of the Soul, and, Nature exists for no other purpose than the Soul's experience. There must be beings in the universe whose intelligence is as much beyond ours, as ours exceeds that of the black beetle, and, who take an active part in the government of the natural order of things. That such intelligences were once human and come like all of us from previous worlds, where, as varied experience [as we see all around us] had been gained by them as is possible for us on this one. WE are therefore not appearing for the first time when we come upon this planet, but have pursued a long, and immeasurable course of activity and intelligent perception on other systems of globes, some of which were destroyed ages before the present Solar system condensed. This immense reach of the evolutionary system means that this planet on which we now are is the result of the activity and the evolution of some other one that died long ages ago, leaning its energy to be used into the bringing of this one into being. And the present inhabitants came in their turn from some older world to proceed here with their destined work in matter. The most intelligent being in the universe, man, has never been without a friend, but has a line of "elder brothers" who continually watch over the progress of the less progressed. They preserve the knowledge gained through aeons of trial and experience, and continually seek for opportunities of drawing the intelligence of the race on this or other globes to consider the great truths concerning the "destiny of the soul." These elder brothers keep the knowledge they have gained of the laws of nature in all departments, and are ready when cyclic law permits to use it for the benefit of mankind. They have always existed as a body, all knowing each other, no matter in what part of the world they may be, and all working for the race in many different ways. In some periods they come out, are well known, and move among ordinary men whenever the social organization, the virtue, and the development of the nations permit it. For if they were to come out openly and be heard of everywhere, they would be worshiped as gods by some, and hunted as devils by others. In those periods when they do come out some of their number are rulers of men, some teachers, a few great philosophers, while others remain still unknown except to the most advanced of the body. They may be truly called the bearers of the torch of truth across the ages; they investigate all things and beings; they know what man is in his innermost nature and what his powers and destiny, his state before birth and the sates into which he goes after death of his body; they have stood by the cradle of nations and seen the vast achievements of the ancients, watched sadly the decay of those who had no power to resist the cyclic law of rise and fall; and while cataclysms seemed to show a universal destruction of art, architecture, religion, and philosophy, they have preserved the records of it all in places secure from the ravages of either man or time; they have made minute observations , through trained psychics of their own order, into the unseen realms of nature and of mind, recorded the observations and preserved the record; they have mastered the mysteries of sound and color through which alone the elemental beings behind the veil of matter can be communicated with - and, (which implies a knowledge of the very foundations of nature) - they know what the ultimate divisions of time are [in any manvantara] and what the meaning and the times of the cycles are. Strange stories are widely known in India about wonderful persons who are said to be of immense age, and who keep themselves secluded in places not accessible to the ordinary traveler. The these beings is well known in Sanskrit: "Mahatma" a compound of two words, "maha" great, and "atma" soul. The belief in their existence is shared by the educated of all classes. The pundits, or learned class say the Mahatmas are men or souls with unlimited knowledge of natural laws and of man's history and development. Some believe that there are stores of books and records in secluded places all over their land and beyond the Himalayas in Tibet and beyond not known to travelers and the access to these being possible only for the Mahatmas and Adepts. [ culled from OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY and ECHOES FROM THE ORIENT - by W. Q. Judge ] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:27:59 +1100 From: Raymond.Greenwood@vic.mondial.net.au Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 23, 1998 Namaste' Alan, > Cybercmh@aol.com writes > >Hmmmm, lessee.... I think, therefore I am. Wait, haven't I heard that > >somewhere before? > > Illogical, captain. I am, Ok, that is SAT. > therefore I think. And I take that as : CHIT. > Alan :0) But Alan, what happened to the ANANDA ? I can lend you some if you like, I found it again, "here". Ray. > --------- > Simply Occult .......... > http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ > E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l > > --- > You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: > Raymond.Greenwood@vic.mondial.net.au List URL - > http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to > leave-theos-l-530Y@list.vnet.net > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 17:48:48 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: 8 things to make life better Here is something I saw at www.sequel.net/peace, the Philippines Theosophical website. mkr ====================================================== Here are the eight suggestions for a healthy and fruitful life by Geoffrey Hodson. Eight Rules on the Art of Living Geoffrey Hodson, a prolific writer on spiritual and theosophical subjects, gives these guidelines based on a long and fruitful life: 1. Do not continually look for trouble. There are two things about which one should never worry. The first is things that cannot be altered. The second is things that can. 2. Learn to like to work, thus avoiding work tension arising when work is disliked. 3. Have a hobby which gets the mind off work tension. During work relax occasionally and briefly think of the hobby. 4. Learn to like people. Avoid a grudge against anyone, for this is disastrous. We have to live with people, so let us learn to like them. 5. Be satisfied when the situation is such that you cannot easily change it. If you cannot easily change the situation, adjust yourself to it. 6. Learn to accept adversity. Do not let it defeat you. Do not brood on trouble and do not wallow in self-pity. 7. Learn to say the cheerful, humorous thing. Never say the mean or the cruel thing. Help others to feel better and you will feel better yourself. 8. Meet problems with decision. Decide what you are going to do and then stop thinking about it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 17:55:05 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Worry Here are steps recommended by a team of psychologists who have effectively reduced worry among many executives: Devote 30 minutes every day for nothing but worrying. Avoid worrying at any time other than during the 30-minute session. Identify exactly what is bothering you and write it down. Imagine the very worst that could happen (and notice how rarely it does occur). From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:34:09 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Round and round and round M K Ramadoss writes >I am really eager to know about yours experience. I also welcome any one >else's private communication of any of their experiences. > >Hope this should clear up the matter. Dear Doss, And so it does. I will be in touch! Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:59:02 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 23, 1998 Raymond.Greenwood@vic.mondial.net.au writes >> Illogical, captain. I am, > > Ok, that is SAT. > >> therefore I think. > > And I take that as : CHIT. > >> Alan :0) > > But Alan, what happened to the ANANDA ? > > I can lend you some if you like, I found it again, "here". Ray, LOL! I heard than Ananda left town with her new boy friend ... Seriously, I am glad you found something useful, "here." Alan :0) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:49:34 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Round and round and round Christine wrote: ><<[Jerry] 1. How do you define the "you" that you claim exists? > 2. How do you define "universe" or "world" that you claim exists? > 3. How can there be any inter-relationship if only the One (Beness) exists? >>> > >Hmmmm, lessee.... I think, therefore I am. Wait, haven't I heard that >somewhere before? Seems to me that both Descartes and Dallas (in his response to Jerry) are "begging the question." The premise and the conclusion cannot be the same. What is this "I" that thinks and therefore is? Dallas refers to this "I" as a "point." Again, Dallas is assuming something already exists and is using that assumption as 'evidence' that this something exists. Perhaps even deeper thought is required in order to answer Jerry's most intriguing questions. Don't look at me, though. I've not a clue to what "I" am or what the "universe" is or what "Beness" is - probably just all words for the same thing. . .as are ALL words, really. Hmmm, Jerry's question number three??? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:16:39 EST From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M In a message dated 98-11-24 22:03:38 EST, you write: << Single malt or blended? Bart >> My father would have preferred the single malt, but grandpa would drink anything you put in front of him. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:30:49 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Round and round and round At 10:49 PM 11/24/1998 -0700, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Don't look at me, though. I've not a clue to what "I" am or what the >"universe" is or what "Beness" is - probably just all words for the same >thing. . .as are ALL words, really. Hmmm, Jerry's question number three??? > >Kym You are not alone. Looking for someone who knows about these things first hand and can be independently verified. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:11:04 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M Drpsionic@aol.com writes >My father would have preferred the single malt, but grandpa would drink >anything you put in front of him. A blunder made, we are told, by Socrates ... Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:14:14 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Round and round and round M K Ramadoss writes >>Don't look at me, though. I've not a clue to what "I" am or what the >>"universe" is or what "Beness" is - probably just all words for the same >>thing. . .as are ALL words, really. Hmmm, Jerry's question number three??? >> >>Kym > >You are not alone. > >Looking for someone who knows about these things first hand and can be >independently verified. Dearest Doss, You have said this before, and having had some first hand experience, I offered to discuss with you privately, which you decline to do. I am sure I am not the only person on the list(s) who could make the same offer. Don't you trust us? Familiarity often breeds not contempt, but indifference and lack of confidence. Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 00:09:51 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 23, 1998 Cybercmh@aol.com writes >Hmmmm, lessee.... I think, therefore I am. Wait, haven't I heard that >somewhere before? Illogical, captain. I am, therefore I think. Alan :0) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:40:13 EST From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M In a message dated 98-11-25 19:22:14 EST, you write: << A blunder made, we are told, by Socrates ... Alan >> As I often reminded my Grandfather, especially after he almost drank the window washing fluid. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:40:14 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Feedback Wonderful feedback. The velocity and volume of communication is phenomenal in the Cyberspace. Hourly/daily exchanges of items of interest common to all of us cannot but speed up their effect on each one of us and cannot be substituted by a weekly/monthly/annual encounters of the past. I think that it may be what is in the works of those Powers be. mkr Cybercmh@aol.com wrote: > I gotta tell all of you folks - these theosophy lists are so great! You can > rest assured that you are not wasting your time. At least one spiritually > hungry subscriber awaits your postings! A real brain refresher after a day of > dealing with the mundane. Car problems, groceries, silly bureaucracies - then > Spirit. From the ridiculous to the sublime. A cool breeze flows in and > refreshes me. Almost as good as sitting up until 3 in the morning in the dorm > room of college days past, contemplating Great and Noble Truths with my fellow > philosophers, in blissful ignorance of the looming "bottom line" soon to haunt > all of our vocational futures......Many, many thanks for all who share their > thoughts in this medium, for people like me to sit and contemplate and renew > our spirits and remember Who we are after a long day at the office. > Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:51:03 -0800 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 23, 1998 1998. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:38:24 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: >Dallas offers: >> >Why not try three facts: > >1. You exist. > >2. The Universe, World, environment, etc... taken as a whole -- >exists. > >3. There is a constant inter-relationship between "You" and all >the rest. These are not facts at all. Only words. 1. How do you define the "you" that you claim exists? DALLAS: I THINK THAT IS EVIDENT. IT IS A POINT OF SUBJECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS WHICH IS AT THE CORE OF MY BEING, AND I ASSUME YOU ARE SIMILARLY ENDOWED, AS IS EVERY OTHER HUMAN, AND POTENTIALLY EVERY SENTIENT BEING IN THE UNIVERSE. 2. How do you define "universe" or "world" that you claim exists? DALLAS: THE TOTAL ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH I, YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE DWELLS AND HAS THEIR "BEING." 3. How can there be any inter-relationship if only the One (Beness) exists? DALLAS CONVERSATION, OBSERVATION, CORRESPONDENCE, ETC...SEEM TO BE ADEQUATE EVIDENCE OF INTER-RELATIONSHIP. THOUGHT AND EMOTION TRANSFERENCE ALSO. Jerry S. Dallas offers: I think Jerry, that you and I are speaking of the same things but our language differs somewhat. "Whatever our plane of consciousness may be acting in, both we and the things belonging to that plane are, for the time being, our only realities. As we rise in the scale of development we perceive that during the stages through which we have passed we mistook shadows for realities, and the upward progress of the Ego is a series of progressive awakenings, each advance bringing with it the idea that now, at last, we have reached "reality;" but only when we shall have reached the absolute Consciousness, and blended our own with it, shall we be free from the delusions produced by Maya." SD I p. 40 top. Perhaps you are driving at something else ? What you write puzzles me. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:08:20 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: In a message dated 11/21/98 12:01:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, Dallas writes: << Those that are truly wise are generous, altruistic, sharing, impersonal and universal in their efforts to assist >> Many thanks, Dallas, for this posting. I experienced many "Aha!" moments while reading it. Just one question: could you elaborate a bit on how you mean the word "impersonal" in this context? I think the personal-impersonal dichotomy can be confusing, depending on what you mean by those terms, and would like to be further educated. The word "impersonal" seems so cold and, well, impersonal - you get my point. DALLAS Theosophy divides the human "principles" into the Individual (and immortal ones) or ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS, and the "personal" ones. (constantly being reformed and transformed as time passes and we live, think and feel about things) or KAMA - PRANA - ASTRAL-BODY, AND PHYSICAL BODY. The best place I know of to get these clearly is THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY where HPB explains them. [ see KEY p.p. 91, 134-5, 175-6 etc. ] "Impersonal" ought to be translated as "universal," or those thoughts and feelings that we can share without shame or confusion with anyone. In general those thoughts, feelings and deeds that are virtuous unselfish and altruistic are those that we might call "impersonal" because we are not doing them so that we will be "rewarded," or secure some special "recognition." That's all I have in mind, and the definitions are rather HPB's than mine. I hope that this is helpful. No, Theosophy is not cold or repellant. I have always found that it gives useful and fair explanations for problems. It offers three great ideas to start with. 1. we are all united. We come from one source: Spirit, and we use the same kind of matter over and over again. 2. The Universe runs under great laws which are the same for everyone and all things So there are no favorites, and prayer or petition does not give us or anyone else an unfair and an unjust advantage 3. Every being in the universe from the most ignorant "life-atom" to the highest evolved Adept or Dhyan Chohan proceeds through the same processes - so that we can compare our Universe and the many stages in evolution to a great School. On rule is universal and that is that WISDOM about LAW is common to all, and no one Ought to keep others ignorant if they know some or all of the answers. Of course there is a lot more to theosophy: such as Karma, Reincarnation, Cooperation, and striving to achieve UNION with the ALL-SPIRIT. Dallas I gotta tell all of you folks - these theosophy lists are so great! You can rest assured that you are not wasting your time. At least one spiritually hungry subscriber awaits your postings! A real brain refresher after a day of dealing with the mundane. Car problems, groceries, silly bureaucracies - then Spirit. From the ridiculous to the sublime. A cool breeze flows in and refreshes me. Almost as good as sitting up until 3 in the morning in the dorm room of college days past, contemplating Great and Noble Truths with my fellow philosophers, in blissful ignorance of the looming "bottom line" soon to haunt all of our vocational futures......Many, many thanks for all who share their thoughts in this medium, for people like me to sit and contemplate and renew our spirits and remember Who we are after a long day at the office. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 04:34:29 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World Response to Dallas This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE1752.6587AC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nov 24th 1998 Dear Jerry: IMMORTALITY -- of course this cannot be proved objectively, only by thinking hard about it. It is neither Hindu nor Buddhist. Theosophy embraces not only these two but also all the rst of the great world religions and philosophies -- makes them impersonal and shows that they all originate from one source. UNCERTAINTY -- UNCERTAINTY I agree that they are a pair. On the other hand we cannot read our own future, but we seem to muddle through those daily problems pretty well. JUDGMENTS -- Those concerning myself are agreeably subjective. But I would not try to attempt or make the judging of another a practice. The surface of all living is limited. Only each person knows in his/her heart-of-heart what their motives are. THE INNER SELF -- each has to do this for themselves. If we consider that all Theosphy offers are the propositions we might use if we want to, and, in addition lends the weight of testimony in regard to their application then we may find value in theosophy. But we are all free to go and take up either our own way of thinking or to study and apply any other system. The only reason that I read and contribute to these talks is that I have found something in Theosophy that is useful for me. I share it in the hope tha others like you will respond and so we will all learn more together. Of course my interpretation of what HPB says is my own, but I try also to impesonalize it and universalize it so that it is not too heavily charged with my opinions. KARMA -- My view is that every physical action (thought, feeling, etc.) has its moral (ethical) and everlasting effect. And that these effects return to those who generate them in time. I would say that by wronging anyone I would wrong myself as well as the rest of mankind -- in the long run. [DALLAS ] [DALLAS ] Dallas TenBroeck dalval@nwc,net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Schueler Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 6:26 AM To: Theos World Subject: Theos-World Response to Dallas [DALLAS ] The "personality" to me, includes not only the reasoning faculty, but also it engages the emotional faculty (desires, passions, wants and needs) as a separate faculty. I agree up to a point. I use HPB's definitions of the 7=fold man, and have tested it and found it valuable and workable. It also (to me) solves many of the puzzles of modern psychology. I would love to hear how you "tested" it. The problem with most psychology is not puzzles but simply that, like scientists, they won't acknowledge what they can't detect with their physical senses. If only they (those engaged in psychological science and investigation) studied and employed it (Theosophical definitions), they would save a lot of time. Transpersonal psychology is slowly doing this, thanks mostly to Ken Wilber. But the first stumbling block is the matter of individual IMMORALITY. If that is not grasped. To me it is very logical but I also recognize that it is not part of the educational or religious instruction here in the West (as opposed to the East, where in most countries, among the common people, the concept of Soul-immorality is common). Here is where you and I part ways. Like Buddhism, I do not believe in individual immortality. In fact, Dallas, the idea of personal immortality is exactly what the Black Magician tries to accomplish. Even "Individuality" as defined by HPB is transcend, changing, and ephemeral. You will find soul-immortality in Hinduism, but not in Buddhism. [DALLAS ] Excuse me, but it is easy to take that view point, but it is causing a paradox. In the sense that you the illusion are able to see other illusions -- and there would be (if true) no certainty of any kind. But there is one certainty tha you seem to advance -- THERE IS NOTHING BUT UNCERTAINTY. If there is contrast then the inquirer has to have a basis. What is your basis ? This is what I somehow do not get at. You apparently keep misunderstanding me. I never said THERE IS NOTHING BUT UNCERTAINTY, nor do I believe such a thing. What I have been saying is that certainty and uncertainty are two sides of the same coin and you can't have one without the other. >>Improvement and distortion are purely subjective terms. [DALLAS ] AGREED, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM UNUSABLE OR UNREAL, DOES IT ? iN A WAY EVERYTHING WE PERCEIVE WITH ANY OF OUR SENSES OR THE MIND IS "subjective." I say this as we take in those various impressions and then transform them into images, vibrations, etc. which our inner "brain-mind" makes a "picture" of and then we gain a vision of what is being prsented and evolve a response. When you make a statement that something is a distortion you are making a subjective judgement. I agree that you are free to make such judgement calls for yourself, HPB tells us to do this. But she also points out that it is wrong to make such judgement calls for others, and that is what you seem to be doing all the time (Or am I wrong?). In short, it is ok to think that you yourself are improving, but it is quite wrong to think that your neighbor is not. [DALLAS ] Not really, as this is recognized by me as a fact, and also I believe I am right in assuming that something in "me" is aware of the change of scene, plane, etc... and either acts, or eceives impressions from that event -- and then those are brought into focus when we "return" to this plane. I would very much hesitate to advance any experience tha I had as anything but proof to myself of the events I had experienced. The above is very unclear. If you are trying to say that inside of us is a Seer in the Patanjali sense, then I would agree. However, you really have to take this one step farther and do a Rahmana Maharshi exercise (who am I?) on this Seer to see what it is. So far, I have been unable to define it, and so I just call it pure consciousness for lack of anything better. [DALLAS ] Then what HPB advances in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE (PP 66 - 76 IN my edition) appears to contradict this assumption. Also in SD II 167 is an explanation of the situation. No, it is not HPB but your own interpretation of her that conflicts. [DALLAS ] AS I undrsand it, Karma acts everywhere, on all planes and all the time for all being including you, me and everyone else. To say tha Karma acts only in future lives. That is mechanistic and not true. If you allow boiling water to fall on your hand today the effect is immediate. We are talking in cross-purposes here. I have no problem with karma being in time (but synchronicities are acausal and outside of time). I am heartened to hear that you dislike mechanistic or deterministic views of the world although most of your messages have suggested the opposite to me. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE1752.6587AC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nov=20 24th 1998
 
Dear=20 Jerry:
 
IMMORTALITY -- of course this cannot be proved objectively, = only by=20 thinking hard about it.  It is neither Hindu nor=20 Buddhist.
 
Theosophy embraces not only these two but also all the rst of = the great=20 world religions and philosophies -- makes them impersonal and shows that = they=20 all originate from one source.
 
UNCERTAINTY -- UNCERTAINTY  I agree that they are a=20 pair.   On the other hand we cannot read our own future, but = we seem=20 to muddle through those daily problems pretty well.
 
JUDGMENTS    -- Those concerning myself are = agreeably=20 subjective.  But I would not try to attempt or make the judging of = another=20 a practice.  The surface of all living is=20 limited.  Only each person knows in his/her heart-of-heart what = their=20 motives are.
 
 THE INNER SELF --    each has to do this = for=20 themselves.  If we consider that all Theosphy offers are the = propositions=20 we might use if we want to, and, in addition lends the weight of = testimony in=20 regard to their application then we may find value in theosophy.  = But we=20 are all free to go and take up either our own way of thinking or to = study and=20 apply any other system. 
 
The=20 only reason that I read and contribute to these talks is that I have = found=20 something in Theosophy that  is useful = for me.  I=20 share it in the hope tha others like you will respond and so we will all = learn=20 more together.  Of course my interpretation of what HPB says is my = own, but=20 I try also to impesonalize it and universalize it so that it is not too = heavily=20 charged with my opinions.
 
KARMA  --  My view is that every physical action = (thought,=20 feeling, etc.) has its moral (ethical) and everlasting effect. And that = these=20 effects return to those who generate them in time.  I would say = that by=20 wronging anyone I would wrong myself as well as the rest=20 of mankind -- in the long run.
[DALLAS=20 ] 
  
[DALLAS=20 ] 
 
 
 
 
 

          &nbs= p;  =20 Dallas=20 TenBroeck
          =    =20 dalval@nwc,net


 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com=20 [mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of = Jerry=20 Schueler
Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 6:26 = AM
To:=20 Theos World
Subject: Theos-World Response to=20 Dallas

[DALLAS ] 
The "personality" to me, includes = not only the=20 reasoning faculty, but also it engages the emotional faculty = (desires,=20 passions, wants and needs) as a separate faculty. =20
 
I agree up to a point. 
 
 
I use HPB's definitions of the 7=3Dfold man, = and have tested=20 it and found it valuable and workable.  It also (to me) solves = many of=20 the puzzles of modern psychology. 
 
I would love to = hear how you=20 "tested" it. The problem with most = psychology
is = not puzzles=20 but simply that, like scientists, they won't acknowledge what
they can't detect with their physical senses.
 
 
If only they (those engaged in psychological = science and=20 investigation) studied and employed it (Theosophical definitions), = they=20 would save a lot of time. 
 
Transpersonal psychology = is slowly=20 doing this, thanks mostly to Ken Wilber.
 
 
But the first stumbling block is the matter of = individual=20 IMMORALITY.  If that is not grasped.  To me it is very = logical but=20 I also recognize that it is not part of the educational or religious = instruction here in the West (as opposed to the East, where in most=20 countries, among the common people, the concept of Soul-immorality = is=20 common).
 
Here is where you and I part ways. Like Buddhism, I do not = believe in=20 individual
immortality. In fact, Dallas, the idea of personal immortality = is=20 exactly what the
Black Magician tries to accomplish. Even = "Individuality" as=20 defined by HPB is
transcend, changing, and ephemeral. You will find = soul-immortality in=20 Hinduism,
but not in Buddhism.
 
 
[DALLAS ] 
Excuse me, but it is easy to take that view = point, but it=20 is causing a paradox.  In the sense that you the illusion are = able to=20 see other illusions -- and there would be (if true) no certainty of = any=20 kind.  But there is one certainty tha you seem to advance -- = THERE IS=20 NOTHING BUT UNCERTAINTY.  If there is contrast then the = inquirer has to=20 have a basis.  What is your basis ?  This is what I = somehow do not=20 get at.
 
You apparently keep misunderstanding me. I never said THERE IS = NOTHING=20 BUT
UNCERTAINTY, nor do I believe such a thing. What I have been = saying is=20 that certainty
and uncertainty are two sides of the same coin and you can't = have one=20 without the other.
 
 
 
>>Improvement and = distortion are=20 purely subjective terms.
 [DALLAS ]=20
 AGREED, BUT THAT=20 DOES NOT MAKE THEM UNUSABLE OR UNREAL, DOES IT ?  iN A WAY = EVERYTHING=20 WE PERCEIVE WITH ANY OF OUR SENSES OR THE MIND IS=20 "subjective."  I say this as we take in those various = impressions and then transform them into images, vibrations, etc. = which our=20 inner "brain-mind" makes a "picture" of and then = we gain=20 a vision of what is being prsented and evolve a = response.
 
When you make a statement that something = is a=20 distortion you are making
a subjective judgement.  I = agree that=20 you are free to make such judgement
calls for yourself, HPB tells us to do this. But she also = points out=20 that it is
wrong to make such judgement calls for others, and that is what = you=20 seem
to be doing all the time (Or am I wrong?).
 
In short, it is ok to think that you yourself are improving, = but it is=20 quite wrong
to think that your neighbor is not.
 
 
[DALLAS = ] 
Not really, as this is = recognized by me as a=20 fact, and also I believe I am right in assuming that something in=20 "me" is aware of the change of scene, plane, etc... and = either=20 acts, or eceives impressions from that event -- and then those are = brought=20 into focus when we "return" to this plane.  I would = very much=20 hesitate to advance any experience tha I had as anything but proof = to myself=20 of the events I had experienced.
 
The above is very unclear. If you are trying to say that inside = of us=20 is a Seer in
the Patanjali sense, then I would agree. However, you really = have to=20 take this
one step farther and do a Rahmana Maharshi exercise (who am I?) = on=20 this
Seer to see what it is. So far, I have been unable to define = it, and so=20 I just
call it pure consciousness for lack of anything better.
 
 
[DALLAS = ]  
Then what HPB advances in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY = LODGE (PP 66=20 - 76 IN my edition) appears to contradict this assumption.  = Also in SD=20 II 167 is an explanation of the situation.
 
No, it is not HPB but your own = interpretation of=20 her that conflicts.
 
 
[DALLAS ] 
AS I undrsand it, Karma acts everywhere, on = all planes and=20 all the time for all being including you, me and everyone = else.  To say=20 tha Karma acts only in future lives.  That is mechanistic and = not=20 true.  If you allow boiling water to fall on your hand today = the effect=20 is immediate.  
 
We are talking in cross-purposes here. I have no problem with = karma=20 being in time
(but synchronicities are acausal and outside of time). I am = heartened=20 to hear that
you dislike mechanistic or deterministic views of the world = although=20 most of your
messages have suggested the opposite to me.
 
 
Jerry = S.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE1752.6587AC60-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:14:48 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: online sites and hangouts Christine: >Gosh, I'll just throw this brainstorm out for consideration. Why >not form the "Theosophical Society Online" (TSO) or some such >thing, as a real organization, not just an ad hoc mailing list >community?? Lots of these folks seem to belong to several of the >online TS e-mailing lists, and probably have something in common. >I'm thinking: membership, mailing list, website, >clearinghouse, related links, online posting of >source/reference/bibliographic >material, annual conferences even. It already exists -- http://www.blavatsky.net Reed Carson has built up a large website with a substantial archive of theosophical materials, has an online membership with the user able to make selections and setup a profile. His site is focused on the pivotal character in theosophical groups, the one person they all have in common -- HPB. Not being an "society," but just a website, there's not the same feeling to joining it as there's to joining a T.S., so people feeling a bit too independent to join a group can join it. I understand that his site has more people having joined it than the combined total of subscribers to the different theosophical mailing lists. And he's just starting to get going a mailing list for studying THE SECRET DOCTRINE, with perhaps an initial subscriber list as large as 500. Reed's site is just what you're asking for, and he's been putting lots of time and energy into in for years. I support in and refer people to it regularly. I'd expect it to receive wide support from everyone except, perhaps, the few that dislike the idea that there is a definite and valuable philosophy to be found with Theosophy, and would be repelled at the thought of participating in a site dedicated to it. Given the level of antagonism that I've seen at times, I'd expect to see *two* sites in the future. One group/site/emphasis holds special the theosophical Dharma, the philosophical treasury; the other has no special interest in it, and promotes equally any and all books and ideas that make their way across the Internet. ... So while I'd consider Reed's site to be a great place, since it actively promotes the theosophical philosophy, there may be a place for an alternate site as well, a site that is a generic hangout without any special interest in Theosophy itself. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:18:16 -0500 (EST) From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Responses to Dallas on Karma This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE179A.A5910660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 >IMMORTALITY -- of course this cannot be proved objectively, only by = thinking hard about it. It is neither Hindu nor Buddhist.> =20 The problem is that most people think of immortality as time ticking = on forever and that is wishful thinking. =20 >Theosophy embraces not only these two but also all the rst of the = great world religions and philosophies -- makes them impersonal and = shows that they all originate from one source.> =20 Theosophy, as I and those other religions are concerned, embraces = nothing.=20 It simply picks out those things it likes best from all the world's = religions and discards what it doesn't like (much the same as I do myself). Why do you = suppose the world's religions have yet to embrace Theosophy? =20 =20 >UNCERTAINTY -- UNCERTAINTY I agree that they are a pair. On the = other hand we cannot read our own future, but we seem to muddle through = those daily problems pretty well.> =20 The future is a realm of possibilities or probabilities that can be = read=20 only statistically. "Muddle" is a pretty good way of putting it. =20 =20 >JUDGMENTS -- Those concerning myself are agreeably subjective. = But I would not try to attempt or make the judging of another a = practice. The surface of all living is limited. Only each person knows = in his/her heart-of-heart what their motives are.> =20 Glad to hear you say this. =20 > THE INNER SELF -- each has to do this for themselves. If we = consider that all Theosphy offers are the propositions we might use if = we want to, and, in addition lends the weight of testimony in regard to = their application then we may find value in theosophy. But we are all = free to go and take up either our own way of thinking or to study and = apply any other system. > =20 Well, I certainly can't argue with any of this. Good. But what you=20 say here kinda conflicts with your past use of "genuine Theosophy" or "original Theosophy" which implies a more dogmatic approach. =20 >The only reason that I read and contribute to these talks is that I = have found something in Theosophy that is useful for me. I share it in = the hope tha others like you will respond and so we will all learn more = together. Of course my interpretation of what HPB says is my own, but I = try also to impesonalize it and universalize it so that it is not too = heavily charged with my opinions.> =20 I hope that we are all doing this. =20 KARMA -- My view is that every physical action (thought, feeling, = etc.) has its moral (ethical) and everlasting effect. And that these = effects return to those who generate them in time. I would say that by = wronging anyone I would wrong myself as well as the rest of mankind -- = in the long run. [DALLAS ]=20 =20 =20 Please think about what you are saying here. I know that this is the Theosophical exoteric "party line" but it is really a terrible = notion. Any rational thought on this idea will conclude that the Wheel of Life will turn forever and that there is no escape. If every act = must be repaid in kind, then we will always and forever have to return. This is NOT the message of Buddhism, nor the message of Vedanta, nor of Taoism (and I thought Theosophy embraced these religions?). Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism all teach the possibility of ending karma and of transcending the Wheel of Life. This is really the "Good News" of the East -- not the doctrine of karma and reincarnation which are almost viewed as sin. For=20 reasons best known to herself, HPB emphasized Karma and=20 Reincarnation as doctrines and de-emphasized their transcendence. Anyway, in order for transcendence to be possible at all, the awful notion that every act must be repaid in kind can't be true. It may seem to be true sometimes, but logically it can't be. There is a logical flaw in the eye-for-an-eye teaching. I believe that Jesus saw through this flaw and emphasized compassion and forgiveness as the way of transcendence. How? Because compassion and forgiveness are powerful enough, if sincere, to actually sever karmic ties. =20 Jerry S.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE179A.A5910660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>IMMORTALITY -- of course this cannot be proved = objectively, only=20 by thinking hard about it.  It is neither Hindu nor=20 Buddhist.>
 
The problem is that most people think of=20 immortality as time ticking on forever
and that is wishful = thinking.
 
>Theosophy embraces not only these two but also all the = rst of the=20 great world religions and philosophies -- makes them impersonal and = shows=20 that they all originate from one = source.>
 
Theosophy, as I and those other religions = are=20 concerned, embraces nothing.
It simply picks out those things it likes = best from=20 all the world's religions and discards
what it doesn't like (much the same as I = do=20 myself). Why do you suppose the
world's religions have yet to embrace=20 Theosophy?
 
 
>UNCERTAINTY -- UNCERTAINTY  I agree that they are = a=20 pair.   On the other hand we cannot read our own future, = but we=20 seem to muddle through those daily problems pretty=20 well.>
 
The future is a realm of = possibilities=20 or probabilities that can be read
only statistically. = "Muddle"=20 is a pretty good way of putting it.
 
 
>JUDGMENTS    -- Those concerning myself = are=20 agreeably subjective.  But I would not try to attempt or make = the=20 judging of another a practice.  The = surface of all=20 living is limited.  Only each person knows in his/her = heart-of-heart=20 what their motives are.>
 
Glad to hear you say this.
 
> THE INNER SELF --    each has to do = this for=20 themselves.  If we consider that all Theosphy offers are the=20 propositions we might use if we want to, and, in addition lends the = weight=20 of testimony in regard to their application then we may find value = in=20 theosophy.  But we are all free to go and take up either our = own way of=20 thinking or to study and apply any other system. =20 >
 
Well, I certainly can't argue with any of = this.=20 Good. But what you
say here kinda conflicts with your past = use of=20 "genuine Theosophy"
or "original Theosophy" which = implies a=20 more dogmatic approach.
 
>The only reason that I read and contribute to these = talks is that=20 I have found something in Theosophy that  is useful for me.  I share = it in the=20 hope tha others like you will respond and so we will all learn more=20 together.  Of course my interpretation of what HPB says is my = own, but=20 I try also to impesonalize it and universalize it so that it is not = too=20 heavily charged with my opinions.>
 
I hope that we are all doing = this.
 
KARMA  --  My view is that every physical action = (thought,=20 feeling, etc.) has its moral (ethical) and everlasting effect. And = that=20 these effects return to those who generate them in time.  I = would say=20 that by wronging anyone I would wrong myself as well as the rest of=20 mankind -- in the long run.
[DALLAS=20 ] 
   =
Please think about what = you are saying=20 here. I know that this is
the Theosophical = exoteric=20 "party line" but it is really a terrible = notion.
Any rational thought on this idea will = conclude=20 that the Wheel of
Life will turn forever and that there is = no escape.=20 If every act must
be repaid in kind, then we will always = and forever=20 have to return.
This is NOT the message of Buddhism, nor = the=20 message of
Vedanta, nor of Taoism (and I thought = Theosophy=20 embraced these
religions?).  Buddhism, Hinduism, = and Taoism=20 all teach the
possibility of ending karma and of = transcending the=20 Wheel of
Life. This is really the "Good = News" of=20 the East -- not the doctrine
of karma and reincarnation which are = almost viewed=20 as sin. For
reasons best known to herself, = HPB emphasized Karma and
Reincarnation as doctrines and = de-emphasized their transcendence.
Anyway, in order for transcendence to be = possible=20 at all, the awful
notion that every act must be repaid in = kind can't=20 be true. It may
seem to be true sometimes, but logically = it can't=20 be. There is a
logical flaw in the eye-for-an-eye = teaching. I=20 believe that Jesus
saw through this flaw and emphasized = compassion and=20 forgiveness
as the way of transcendence. How? Because = compassion and
forgiveness are powerful enough, if = sincere, to=20 actually sever
karmic ties.
 
Jerry = S. 
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE179A.A5910660-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:55:46 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M In a message dated 11/23/98 7:37:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, ramadoss@eden.com writes: << I would be interested to know why you are calling the group at Larkspur as a splinter group. >> It depends who you talk to. The group established in Ojai maintain they have an official link with the Paris Grand Lodge while those in Larkspur maintain they are in the right for severing their connections with the International HQ in France. I'm not in the Co-M so I don't know all the ramifications or legal fine points. Apparently, the breakaway group won some kind of legal battle here in the USA in order to maintain their residence (or legitimize, some would say, their "take over") of the Larkspur headquarters. To clarify my reference to the Golden Dawn. I wasn't implying that any of their members were Co-Masons but that many GD members were indeed involved in mainstream Masonry (sometimes referred to as masculine Masonry). Best Wishes, Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:04:04 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 20, 1998 In a message dated 11/23/98 10:53:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, Cybercmh@aol.com writes: << where have the beautiful visions gone? >> They've gone down the rat hole in this age of cynicism, materiality and ennui. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:27:50 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Theosophical Quotations == to think over Nov 24th 1998 ON THE WORK OF FUTURE INITIATES AND ADEPTS "It is the profane of previous ages who have degraded the pure ideal of cosmic creation...it is the esoteric teachings, and the initiates of the Future, whose mission it is, and will be, to redeem and ennoble once more the primitive conceptions so sadly profaned by its crude and gross application to exoteric dogmas and personations by theological and ecclesiastical religionists. The silent worship of abstract or noumenal Nature, the only manifestation, is the one ennobling religion of Humanity." SD I 381 fn DESTINY is not FATALISM "Connected as the Lipika are with the destiny of every man and the birth of every child, whose life is already traced in the Astral Light-not fatalistically, but only because the future, like the PAST, is ever alive in the PRESENT-they may also be said to exercise an influence...at the birth of a child, influence his brain-virgin of any impression-in a definite manner..." SD I 105 TIME and ILLUSION - REALITY (?) "The present is only a mathematical line which divides that part of eternal duration which we call the future, from that part which we call the past. Nothing on earth has real duration, for a second; and the sensations we have of the actuality of the division of "time" known as the present comes from the blurring of that momentary glimpse, or succession of glimpses, of things that our senses give us, as those things pass from the region of ideals which we call the future, to the region of memories that we name the past. The real person or thing does not consist solely of what is seen at any particular moment, but is composed of the sum of all its various and changing conditions from its appearance in the material form to its disappearance from the earth...Even so of persons and things, which, dropping out of the to-be into the has-been, out of the future into the past-present momentarily to our senses a cross-section, as it were, of their total selves, as they pass through time and space (as matter) on their way from one eternity to another: and those two constitute that "duration" in which alone anything has true existence, were our sense but able to cognize it there." It is these "sum totals" that exist from eternity in the "future," and pass by degrees through mater, to exist for eternity in the "past." SD I 37 "What is Time, for instance, but the panoramic succession of our states of consciousness?...The three periods-the Present, the Past, and the Future-are in the esoteric philosophy a compound time; for the three are a composite number only in relation to the phenomenal plane, but in the realm of noumena have no abstract validity." SD I 44 & 43 UNIVERSAL PROGRESS "The Secret Doctrine teaches the progressive development of everything, worlds as well as atoms; and this stupendous development has neither conceivable beginning not imaginable end. Our Universe" is only one of an infinite number of Universes, all of them "sons of Necessity," because links in the great Cosmic chain of Universes, each one standing in the relation of an effect as regards its predecessor, and being a cause as regards its successor...the "Great Breath," which is eternal, and which, being Motion, is one of the three aspects of the Absolute-Abstract Space and duration being the other two." SD I 43 "The Present is the Child of the Past; the Future, the begotten of the Present..." SD II 446 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:47:03 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M Augoeides@aol.com wrote: > It depends who you talk to. The group established in > Ojai maintain they have an official link with the Paris > Grand Lodge while those in Larkspur maintain they > are in the right for severing their connections with > the International HQ in France. I'm not in the Co-M > so I don't know all the ramifications or legal fine points. I think the litigation in Denver Federal Court is not over yet. Later today when I find some time to write, what I am aware of. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:43:56 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 98-11-23 18:50:31 EST, you write: > ><< In the case of the Golden Dawn men, this was English Grand Lodge > Freemasonry, members of which founded the Golden Dawn via the > Societias Rosicruciana in Anglia (which still exists, and open only to > English Grand Lodge Freemasons). This info from one of its members > (which I am not). > > Alan >> > >And they would not have soiled themselves with Co-m but would have been good Scotch Rite freemasons. Hoots Mon! Scots are Scottish, Whisky is Scotch. Curiously, the Co- Masonic Order works the Scottish Rite of 33 degrees ... but as you say, the G.D. founders and their ilk would have regarded Co-Masonry as an abomination in the eyes of their version of G, who is, of course, a British White Male who is kind to dogs, and respects the woman's place in the kitchen and the bed. The United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE, pronounced by its own members as "ugly") does not seem to have changed in this respect. Now if they were to be forced to encounter some of the formidable women holding high office in the ranks of Co-Masonry .... > Alan :-)) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:06:52 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome 114! Theosophy International welcomes Beverly Mahoney! Personal welcomes to: BMahoney@statelib.lib.in.us Alan :-) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:00:17 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-11-23 18:50:31 EST, you write: > > << In the case of the Golden Dawn men, this was English Grand Lodge > Freemasonry, members of which founded the Golden Dawn via the > Societias Rosicruciana in Anglia (which still exists, and open only to > English Grand Lodge Freemasons). This info from one of its members > (which I am not). > > Alan >> > > And they would not have soiled themselves with Co-m but would have been good > Scotch Rite freemasons. Single malt or blended? Bart From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:37:32 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 23, 1998 In a message dated 11/24/98 12:01:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, theos- l@list.vnet.net writes: << 1. How do you define the "you" that you claim exists? 2. How do you define "universe" or "world" that you claim exists? 3. How can there be any inter-relationship if only the One (Beness) exists? >> Hmmmm, lessee.... I think, therefore I am. Wait, haven't I heard that somewhere before? :) Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 05:10:05 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Info Request Hi, I do not have much information on your question. However, I am copying this to theos-l, ti-l, and theos-talk with a request that anyone who has any information to provide you directly as I do not think you are subscribed to any of these theosophical maillists. If you need any further info, let me know. mkr Carolyn Schoenert wrote: > M.K., I have some questions for you regarding a term paper I am > doing on James Joyce. He had connections with the Theosophical poet > George Russell (A.E.) and Yeats in 1904-07. Were these men also > Co-Masons? Was Co-Masonry established within these dates in Dublin? > Can you refer me to an Irish or International Hdqs. for Co-Masonry? > Joyce's Ulysses makes several references to Freemasonry that he could > have taken from available Commentaries; he never approached the > organization for an application. Yet, he states a sentence that > appears in the 1st Degree Blue Lodge that would not appear in > Commentaries. Someone revealed these lines and I am wondering who? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:38:24 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 20, 1998 >Dallas offers: > >Why not try three facts: > >1. You exist. > >2. The Universe, World, environment, etc... taken as a whole -- >exists. > >3. There is a constant inter-relationship between "You" and all >the rest. These are not facts at all. Only words. 1. How do you define the "you" that you claim exists? 2. How do you define "universe" or "world" that you claim exists? 3. How can there be any inter-relationship if only the One (Beness) exists? Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:52:22 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: On James Joyce and the Co-M In a message dated 11/22/98 6:04:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, theos- l@list.vnet.net writes: << I have some questions for you regarding a term paper I am > doing on James Joyce. He had connections with the Theosophical poet > George Russell (A.E.) and Yeats in 1904-07. >> I have a friend who lived in Dublin for ten years for the purpose of studying Yeats' esoteric system which was based on the Tarot cards, the Cabala and his studies in theosophy. He was a friend of Yeat's late wife. From conversations with him and from what I've read, W. B. Yeats, MacGrethor Mathers, William Wynn Wescott, Kenneth MacKensie, A. E. Waite, Florence Farr, the mistress of G.B. Shaw and a host of other luminaries of the time were members of the Golden Dawn and many had overlapping membership in Masonry. In reference to James Joyce, I can't give you answer about the possibility of his being a Co-Mason. You can email the Co-Masonic Federation in Larkspur at afhr@co-masonry.org or Co-Freemasonry in Ojai, California at algeo@ix.netcom.com. John Algeo, being a former college professor of English and a Co-Mason, could probably give you a more definitive answer on Joyce than the splinter group in Larkspur. Best Wishes, Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:42:16 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M Augoeides@aol.com writes >W. B. Yeats, MacGrethor Mathers, William >Wynn Wescott, Kenneth MacKensie, A. E. Waite, Florence >Farr, the mistress of G.B. Shaw and a host of other >luminaries of the time were members of the Golden Dawn and >many had overlapping membership in Masonry. In the case of the Golden Dawn men, this was English Grand Lodge Freemasonry, members of which founded the Golden Dawn via the Societias Rosicruciana in Anglia (which still exists, and open only to English Grand Lodge Freemasons). This info from one of its members (which I am not). Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:32:16 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M At 05:52 PM 11/23/1998 EST, you wrote: >John Algeo, being a former college professor of English and a >Co-Mason, could probably give you a more definitive answer >on Joyce than the splinter group in Larkspur. > >Best Wishes, >Augoeides Thanks for the response. I would be interested to know why you are calling the group at Larkspur as a splinter group. There is a law suit in Federal Courts in Denver on this issue, the plaintiffs being the group headquartered in Paris. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:35:26 EST From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: On James Joyce and the Co-M In a message dated 98-11-23 18:50:31 EST, you write: << In the case of the Golden Dawn men, this was English Grand Lodge Freemasonry, members of which founded the Golden Dawn via the Societias Rosicruciana in Anglia (which still exists, and open only to English Grand Lodge Freemasons). This info from one of its members (which I am not). Alan >> And they would not have soiled themselves with Co-m but would have been good Scotch Rite freemasons. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:44:16 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 20, 1998 In a message dated 11/21/98 12:01:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, theos- l@list.vnet.net writes: << The members would have plenty to do were they to pursue reality with half the fervour they do mirage. >> I love that! I could say that about lots of people (including myself)! Great insight. I wish our elected members in Congress would take heed.... Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:50:44 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 20, 1998 In a message dated 11/21/98 12:01:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, theos- l@list.vnet.net writes: << Where is the grandeur of our people and of the one Truth? These, you may say, are beautiful visions which were once realities on earth, but had flitted away like the light of a summer's evening. Yes; and now we are in the midst of a conflicting people, of an obstinate, ignorant people seeking to know the truth, yet not able to find it for each seeks it only for his own private benefit and gratification, without giving one thought to others. >> Wow. I believe this is the root not only of problems in the TS, but of too many problems in America. Deep stuff. I contemplated such questions recently while visiting Monticello, slaveholder and American hero Thomas Jefferson's home. Paradoxes abound. Where is the grandeur of our people, and where have the beautiful visions gone? Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:08:20 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 20, 1998 In a message dated 11/21/98 12:01:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, Dallas writes: << Those that are truly wise are generous, altruistic, sharing, impersonal and universal in their efforts to assist >> Many thanks, Dallas, for this posting. I experienced many "Aha!" moments while reading it. Just one question: could you elaborate a bit on how you mean the word "impersonal" in this context? I think the personal-impersonal dichotomy can be confusing, depending on what you mean by those terms, and would like to be further educated. The word "impersonal" seems so cold and, well, impersonal - you get my point. I gotta tell all of you folks - these theosophy lists are so great! You can rest assured that you are not wasting your time. At least one spiritually hungry subscriber awaits your postings! A real brain refresher after a day of dealing with the mundane. Car problems, groceries, silly bureaucracies - then Spirit. From the ridiculous to the sublime. A cool breeze flows in and refreshes me. Almost as good as sitting up until 3 in the morning in the dorm room of college days past, contemplating Great and Noble Truths with my fellow philosophers, in blissful ignorance of the looming "bottom line" soon to haunt all of our vocational futures......Many, many thanks for all who share their thoughts in this medium, for people like me to sit and contemplate and renew our spirits and remember Who we are after a long day at the office. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 21:37 -0800 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Test Since the server was down it was rejecting msgs. This is a test msg posted via the web directly. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:58:09 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Re: Theos-World The Return of Mermaids, Centaurs, Minotaurs and Werewolves? Nov 19th 198 "The 'sin of the Mindless' is detailed in SD Vol. II 180 185 191-2 683 688-9. We were at one stage in earlier evolution the "mindless" and later when it was the right cyclic time, we were endowed with the mind-faculty by the Dhyanis - the WISE Men with Minds (who had attained to Wisdom in a previous Manvantara) and whose duty it was to pass this faculty on. Pretty much as children acquire the mental faculty by living with adults who use their minds. So children gradually develop theirs. Our best reference point is to get the Rounds and Races and the events that occurred in those straight. Rounds 1, 2 and 3 were formative. Spiritual Intelligence lay in latency while the astral, psychic and physical were developed as links in that Nidana (or chain of communication) which permits spiritual ideas to affect and move material bodies. Thus the 7 Globes were visited in succession three times by the hosts that were to become "Human" in this the 4th Round. So far we have in this 4th circling passed through /globes 1, 2, 3 and we are in the 4th. Our present position is that we are past the balance point of the total cycle and are presently in the 5th Race of the 4th Globe ( D ) in the 4th Round. The "Lighting up of Manas" marked the mid-way point when millions were endowed with the mental faculty by the DHYANIS - MEN WHO HAD BECOME WISE earlier than we. [ see SD I 150fn 159 233 247 254 272 II 69 89-90 98 167 ) This 4th Round is apparently that in which the mind-faculty becomes developed and thereafter we become the agents of our own karmic development - in the sense that we make decisions. Mind implies the freedom to think to remember, to choose, to anticipate the future in various ways and select means and methods of attaining goals that we set. It also offers us the opportunity o becoming WISE. There are many definitions of wisdom. Basically it implies a knowledge of the operations and rules, Laws and processes of Nature. So there is first a study course - sounds like the Pythagorean school - a period of study is then followed by the asking of questions that delve into the causes of things. following that is experiment and trial in and on ourselves. As our search deepens it also widens and ultimately it encompasses a family, a city, a nation, a world so as to add to the dynamic harmony that Karmic law operating in Nature implies. In the S D HPB shows the intertwining of 3 lines of evolution the Spiritual the Intellectual and the physical ( SD I 181) It shows how the mental and the spiritual are latent until such time as the physical has caught up with the need for purity, sensitivity, etc... so that a mind-being can dwell in and use the material in a human body which has been aggregated under law. Observe how in our daily lives we trust such matters as the heart-beat, the breathing, the digestion, the excretion, etc... to the intelligence that is innate in the body. We are a kind of intelligent tenant in this sensitive residence, and when we want to, we interfere with or enhance the activities of that living and sensitive residence. Above and beyond our mental capacities we sense that there is a spiritual something which already knows the answers, and to whom we can refer for advice from time to time - such is Intuition, or the voice of Conscience. That is the divine Tutor or the HIGHER SELF - the MONAD (Atma-Buddhi) which resides in each of us as a "Ray of the ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT." I hope this is of some help. Dallas >Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 5:15 PM >From: LeonMaurer@aol.com >Subject: Re: Re: Theos-World The Return of Mermaids, Centaurs, Minotaurs and Werewolves? In a message dated 11/18/98 1:42:05 PM, Augoeides wrote: >Now we have the sin of the "mindless" in the Fifth >Root Race. Apparently, nothing changes, evolution >to the contrary. Man had in the third, and still has now, his lower nature. Those that are governed by it cannot be governed by their higher minds. Therefore, for these, whatever those of the third did, they can do also. Nothing new... LHM -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:49:33 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Paralyzation of TS One of the issues regarding TS movement that is of concern to many is the decline in the number of people interested in theosophy. I think that the membership of the various TS organizations is an indication of this fact. Is anyone concerned and is anyone is doing anything? I do not know. But it appears that even if anything is being done, nothing seem tobe working. I just happened to see a passage in ML 38 to APS written by Master M and seem to indicate the cause/causes behind the current condition. I place it here for everyone's consideration. ============================================== On the other hand we claim to know more of the secret cause of events than you men of the world do. I say then that it is the vilification and abuse of the founders, the general misconception of the aims and objects of the Society that paralyses its progress -- nothing else. There's no want of definitiveness in these objects were they but properly explained. The members would have plenty to do were they to pursue reality with half the fervour they do mirage. I am sorry to find you comparing Theosophy to a painted house on the stage whereas in the hands of true philanthropists and theosophists it might become as strong as an impregnable fort. The situation is this: men who join the Society with the one selfish object of reaching power making occult science their only or even chief aim may as well not join it -- they are doomed to disappointment as much as those who commit the mistake of letting them believe that the Society is nothing else. It is just because they preach too much "the Brothers" and too little if at all Brotherhood that they fail. How many times had we to repeat, that he who joins the Society with the sole object of coming in contact with us and if not of acquiring at least of assuring himself of the reality of such powers and of our objective existence -- was pursuing a mirage? I say again then. It is he alone who has the love of humanity at heart, who is capable of grasping thoroughly the idea of a regenerating practical Brotherhood who is entitled to the possession of our secrets. He alone, such a man -- will never misuse his powers, as there will be no fear that he should turn them to selfish ends. A man who places not the good of mankind above his own good is not worthy of becoming our chela -- he is not worthy of becoming higher in knowledge than his neighbour. If he craves for phenomena let him be satisfied with the pranks of spiritualism. Such is the real state of things. There was a time, when from sea to sea, from the mountains and deserts of the north to the grand woods and downs of Ceylon, there was but one faith, one rallying cry -- to save humanity from the miseries of ignorance in the name of Him who taught first the solidarity of all men. How is it now? Where is the grandeur of our people and of the one Truth? These, you may say, are beautiful visions which were once realities on earth, but had flitted away like the light of a summer's evening. Yes; and now we are in the midst of a conflicting people, of an obstinate, ignorant people seeking to know the truth, yet not able to find it for each seeks it only for his own private benefit and gratification, without giving one thought to others. Will you, or rather they, never see the true meaning and explanation of that great wreck and desolation which has come to our land and threatens all lands -- yours first of all? It is selfishness and exclusiveness that killed ours, and it [is] selfishness and exclusiveness that will kill yours -- which has in addition some other defects which I will not name. The world has clouded the light of true knowledge, and selfishness will not allow its resurrection, for it excludes and will not recognise the whole fellowship of all those who were born under the same immutable natural law. =================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:51:06 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: axioms TRY SOME "UNIVERSAL IDEAS" for size Nov 20th As to axioms: Dallas offers: Why not try three facts: 1. You exist. 2. The Universe, World, environment, etc... taken as a whole -- exists. 3. There is a constant inter-relationship between "You" and all the rest. These three cannot be done away with so far as our current perceptions go. If you want a few more, or some applications and reasonings: 1. The UNIVERSE is unmeasurable (by us) whether in distance or size, movement or vibration or rest, time, or duration. From the sub-atom to the largest conceivable or seeable distance all the many UNIVERSES so far distinguished all appear to be similar in structure and movement and being. This could be considered as a WHOLE, as a UNITY , as the manifestation in objectivity of some CASUAL factor. What this ultimate CAUSAL factor may be is so far undiscoverable (to us). Scientist and we may theorize about it, basing ourselves on its many manifestations. 2. It is evident that there are laws that run interior to all beings and serve to give them their shape and their existence. It is an invisible and so far an un-cataloged area of our situation. Many rules and laws concerning mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy, biology etc. have been studied and noted. But the important fact is that every one of these is innate, inherent in the beings who live in and with those laws. Further, all the many laws make with each other a dynamic harmony. The differences and changes are all smoothly adjusted in time. Nature working through Karma does this. 3. The universe is cooperative and no being exists without the assistance of innumerable other beings who cooperate in forming it and keeping it alive. The period of time for any one being to live is not known, nor can death be foreseen (except in some very rare cases on record). And yet it is again Nature, working through Karma that does this. 4. It appears that "evolution" in terms of experience and intelligence is a common bond we all share in. When it began, where it will end, what our ultimate purpose in participation is in rarely known at present to most of the people. Hence theories of life and living have resulted in religions. One may see in this the Hermetic concept of "a stone becomes a plant, a plant-an animal, an animal - a man, and a man - a god." There is a constant growth over million of years of individual intelligence and sensitivity. Starting with the "Life-atom" the "immortal pilgrim" (the Monad - ATMA-BUDDHI) becomes the WISE MAHATMA and a DHYANI. WE ought to adopt and intellectually apply the concept that we are at core IMMORTALS. 5. The fact that prophets, sages, wise men in the past and the present exist seems to demonstrate that one of the purposes of human development is ethical and moral. To make this clearer the Laws of living are deemed to be cooperative. Hence brotherhood is said to be the practice of a knowledge of the general laws that rule all Nature and all men. Those that are truly wise are generous, altruistic, sharing, impersonal and universal in their efforts to assist those who are leaning to attain to their level and stature. This ought to be our goal as a human Mind. 6. Some interior confusion arises in most when considering this, as the sense of "I-ness" is very strong. It inheres in our present "personality" (the "mask" of this lifetime). But if we consider that our innate sense of right and wrong is an indication of a Soul (or Spiritual) quality, then the extension of this makes abiding by the Laws of Nature ( Karma) "right," and the breaking, or obstructing of those Natural laws, "wrong." -- And that, for me settles all this question of the relation between personal ethics and the law of karma. Ethics is the law of Karma as it operates in the human kingdom. So if we adopt (for consideration) the 3 axioms as above, and think them over and consider the rest of our situation, we will probably find that they are self-explanatory, and are in fact "details." It is like the story of the businessman in a hurry who, 2,000 years ago, ran up to Hillel and said: "Can you tell me what is the essence of religion, briefly, while I stand on one leg?" Hillel looked at him quietly and said: " Do unto others as you would have them do to you. All the rest is detail." Best wishes, Dallas >Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 5:23 PM >From: D. Porter >Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: axioms vs subjective views Weel, actually I was trying to find an 'axiom' that we could all agree on as a starting point for further extrapolation. But now I'm just confused. Darren At 08:13 PM 11/18/98 -0800, you wrote: > >>All things that exist, all animals, all humans, the earth, the elements, >>the cosmos, the unseen - all are one. >> >>This is not my subjective view but an axiom. >> >>Agreed or Not Agreed? >> >>Darren > >What sort of oneness do you mean? We all breath the same air etc. so >because we share a common environment -- we are one? Or we all came from a >common source, thus are one at the root? Or we all are the same >substance and thus one? Or we are varied conditions of that same shared >substance? Or we have one soul, but different forms? Or some >combination of these possibilities -- or some other one? > >-- ><> Nicholas Weeks <> am455@lafn.org <> Los Angeles > When hearing, pondering and practicing the Dharma, one's aim should be > first of all to subdue one's own mind. Gyelwa Ensapa > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:30:50 -0500 (EST) From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: new theosophical mailing list / S.D. study class There's a new theosophical mailing list that has started up today. It's associated with Blavatsky.Net, and is focusd on a study of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. I've just been reading postings from a number of people on the list, eager to get going. I'd recommend it as a good place to check out. For more information, go to: http://www.blavatsky.net -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:21:57 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 16, 1998 In a message dated 11/17/98 12:01:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, theos- l@list.vnet.net writes: << But once we begin to say one interpretation is right to the exclusion of others, then all the splits start to happen. >> I think this is what happens when we confuse beliefs with The Truth. Then anyone who disagrees with us is "in error," and we have the right to correct them - or exclude them (or worse) if they don't measure up to our definition of The Truth. This is the root of many evils committed in the name of religion. We may believe that our beliefs are most likely The Truth, but I think that once we insist on our interpretation to the exclusion of anyone else's, we begin to tread on dangerous, arrogant territory. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:23:51 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 16, 1998 In a message dated 11/17/98 12:01:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, theos- l@list.vnet.net writes: << If only we recognize and keep in mind that we are all inquirers, and nothing more. >> Yes. We are seekers on the Path, and we respect the other's journey even if it differs from our own, and we learn from and teach each other, but no one interpretation, person, or denomination has a monopoly on The Truth. The Divine Wisdom is bigger than all of them put together. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:25:18 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 16, 1998 Where can one get more info on the Liberal Catholic Church? Have they got a website, perchance? Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:03:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 16, 1998 Try the following: http://members.aol.com/lcatholic/ http://www.lkk.se/pre_e.htm Also you can search at www.altavista.com for Liberal Catholic Church and I found several references. mkr At 08:25 PM 11/20/1998 EST, you wrote: >Where can one get more info on the Liberal Catholic Church? Have they got a >website, perchance? >Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:19:33 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Tibet Dear Martina, great to share your information about your experiences with the suppressed Tibetans. With the increase of internet time is running out much faster for the Chinese occupation forces. Free Tibet! Frank > I have just been in Tibet and I found some Internet-cafes in Lhasa, > rigth in front of the Jokhang - the holiest place in Tibet. Nowadays > the chinese still control all medias, it is not possible to get > foreign news. On TV they send only motherland-propaganda. But the > number of computers with internet will increase and the Chinese cannot > stop this evolution. So even the local minority - the tibetans - will > get the chance to communicate with the world. They are nearly starving > for information! We were asked all the time during our stay, what is > going on with Dalai Lama and so on. > PS the small dry riverbed between the holy lake Manasarovar and > Rakshas Tal had a little bit water this autumn. It was the first time > since a very long time and it is considered to be a good omen. We hope > so too. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:46:26 +0100 From: Mittelberger Martina Subject: theos-l digest: November 17, 1998 > I have just been in Tibet and I found some Internet-cafes in Lhasa, > rigth in front of the Jokhang - the holiest place in Tibet. Nowadays > the chinese still control all medias, it is not possible to get > foreign news. On TV they send only motherland-propaganda. But the > number of computers with internet will increase and the Chinese cannot > stop this evolution. So even the local minority - the tibetans - will > get the chance to communicate with the world. They are nearly starving > for information! We were asked all the time during our stay, what is > going on with Dalai Lama and so on. > PS the small dry riverbed between the holy lake Manasarovar and > Rakshas Tal had a little bit water this autumn. It was the first time > since a very long time and it is considered to be a good omen. We hope > so too. > > Martina Mittelberger > E.Mail: martina.mittelberger@vlr.gv.at From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:16:16 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS Birthday Today, November 17 happens to be the official birthday of Theosophical Society. I think it is appropriate for us to remember many many individuals whose sacrifice was responsible for making theosophy available and accessible to the world. It is my hope that in the coming millennium with the help of dedicated people, we will be able to make theosophy accessible to more people and of course Internet is a going to play an important role both in unifying all those interested in theosophy and support each other in our endeavors. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:01:51 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: vnet discussion lists RE: vnet discussion lists: this is actually a feature of Lyris. It letes you know of distribution problems on the messages you sent in. *everyone* please visit the web site http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l if you do not know your password, there is an option to have lyris (web site) retrieve it. You have many options you can personally set up (like don't send me error messages). You can change email addresses, personal password etc... please visit it and set up your personal options. I can not do it for several hundred individuals. with Lyris you are *empowered* to manage your own stuff ;-) peace - john e. mead p.s. I removed Michael Lea >> From: Cybercmh@aol.com >> Reply-to: theos-l@list.vnet.net (Theosophy Study List) >> To: theos-l@list.vnet.net (Theosophy Study List) >> >> Hello, whenever I hit "reply" and try to send a message to this list, I get >>an >> error message back saying it's undeliverable to "Michael Lea," whom I've >>never >> heard of. Can somebody out there look into this problem? >> Thank you, >> Christine Hanson >> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 07:57:08 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: to Dallas; re: HPB In a message dated 11/15/98 8:29:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, jimlmeier@compuserve.com writes: << HPB-sophia >> I like the word. HPBsophia versus Theosophy From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 07:44:31 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: XXXX-sophia vs Theosophy At 07:57 AM 11/16/1998 EST, Augoeides@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/15/98 8:29:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, >jimlmeier@compuserve.com writes: > ><< HPB-sophia >> > >I like the word. HPBsophia versus Theosophy. I go one step further. XXX-sophia vs Theosophy. Replace XXX with HPB, WQJ,Alice Bailey, Annie Besant, CWL, you or me or anyone else!!!!! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:01:51 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: vnet discussion lists RE: vnet discussion lists: this is actually a feature of Lyris. It letes you know of distribution problems on the messages you sent in. *everyone* please visit the web site http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l if you do not know your password, there is an option to have lyris (web site) retrieve it. You have many options you can personally set up (like don't send me error messages). You can change email addresses, personal password etc... please visit it and set up your personal options. I can not do it for several hundred individuals. with Lyris you are *empowered* to manage your own stuff ;-) peace - john e. mead p.s. I removed Michael Lea >> From: Cybercmh@aol.com >> Reply-to: theos-l@list.vnet.net (Theosophy Study List) >> To: theos-l@list.vnet.net (Theosophy Study List) >> >> Hello, whenever I hit "reply" and try to send a message to this list, I get >>an >> error message back saying it's undeliverable to "Michael Lea," whom I've >>never >> heard of. Can somebody out there look into this problem? >> Thank you, >> Christine Hanson >> >> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:55:35 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World re: Tony's msg Here is an msg of interest and importance to many. It appeared in theos-talk. ..mkr ============================================== At 08:47 AM 11/15/1998 -0800, Rodolfo Don wrote: You hit the nail on the head! Why do you think we have the beautiful motto: "There is no religion higher than Truth" around the seal of the Theosophical Society? Because, rather than any interpretation of any scripture, or belief, only Truth matters. I'm going to bring up an example: We have some discussions about a former leader of the TS (Leadbeater, or Judge, or HPB, it doesn't matter who it is) some of us are are defending him/her, others are accusing the person of wrong doings. Of course, if we know how oppinionated we all can be, we won't reach to a compromise. We won't agree on anything! But if we treat our beliefs the right way: as beliefs, and we regard Truth as higher than anything else, as it really is (after all Truth is what IS, not what we think it is). It doesn't matter what we believe, if we both regard Truth as the highest. If we condition our beliefs to Truth. Am I clear? Please let me know, because this is of the most importance. Rudy Thanks, Rudy. You seem to understand what I am trying to say. It looks like an open mind is very critical in all our search for Truth. Beliefs, can prevent our seeing things as they are. Even when Truth is in front of our "eyes" our beliefs may prevent us from seeing it. In this context, I had the chance to read the recollections of some comtemporaries of HPB. She did not fit the mold of what was respectable and acceptable to the standards of the day -- perhaps standards today - within and without the TSs. For example, there was this description of her smoking 200 cigarettes a day and wearing a lose fitting dress with right pocket full of cheap tobacco and left pocket full of cigarette papers (she make her own cigarettes). Why did the Adepts use someone who did not fit the traditionally held model of "holy" person? Does is not say something? Look at APSinnet and AOHume. The Adepts took the trouble to correspond with them extensively. (We have not had a single letter from any of them since 1900 to anyone we know of.) APS & AOH are not the types given to start the workday and/or end the workday with a meditation session either at home or at the office. Probably they started and ended the day with a drink! They are meat eaters, smokers and apparently consumed liquor. These are considered unacceptable even today for "spiritual" persons. One point that was made in ML was that they(APS&AOH) did not have any beliefs - None. And how it is very easy to overcome the purely physical problems such as meat eating and liquor as compared to powerful beliefs. Also look at Olcott. He was a meat eater and a smoker. Prior to being exposed to theosophy, he was a man of the world -- man of bars and women. Perhaps he was one of the few who had many contacts with many Adepts. And all these are not scholars by any means -- either academically or otherwise. We can also add to the list. All of them are men/women of action and got results. So it appears, the Brothers, being highly practical, sought people who can get real results and not stand as models that public will accept. So to me it looks like the vitality of theosophy does not depend on the books or the teachings that have come down. The vitality and the effect seem to totally depend on (a) are we searching for Truth without any beliefs whatsoever and (b) are we action-oriented rather than arm chair speculators. Just my 0.02. Many may disagree. ....mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:57:21 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: re: Tony's msg Here is a msg I posted to theos-talk. Some may find it of interest. mkr =========================================== alpha@dircon.co.uk wrote: That we see different meanings, or interpretations, of the same words is all part of the richness of Theosophy. But once we begin to say one interpretation is right to the exclusion of others, then all the splits start to happen. The Theosophical Society becomes the Theosophical Movement. You are right on target. It look like, we are all like the eight blind men who tried to describe the elephant. Theosophy itself is not mentioned or defined in the objects or the articles of incorporation.. All we need is one person who is not blind -- one who could see and describe what Truth is. Again we run into what seems to be a problem of trying to describe something which cannot be accurately and fully described in so many words. The pity is that some still believe in and try to "teach" theosophy and issue certificates you can hang on the wall. May be later degrees ending up Doctorate in Theosophy -- just like Doctor of Divinity can be obtained. Who knows.. If only we recognize and keep in mind that we are all inquirers, and nothing more. However scholarly one is in academic achievements -- passing many examinations -- it has nothing to do with inquiring about what Truth is. Just my 0.02. On the other hand how do we square the rituals of the liberal catholic church with what is written in the Mahatma Letters? How do we square the original SD with the different versions? You cannot square. To square you need a lot of blind belief (which is very easy, as one does not have to think) in the pronouncement of the well known theosophists of the day. And many believed and still believe today. Of course, it is their birthright to believe anything they want. It looks like the timing and the personalities involved in LCC. When the coming of the World Teacher was announced, it was believed that there would be a re-run of what happened 2000 years ago. Apostles and the LCC appears to have come in handy. (Apostles were created in a hurry by declaring that many of them passed thru great initiations in a great hurry, and every one was made to believe. Just read Candles inthe Sun for the full story.) Also the leading "officially" sanctioned "occultist" was CWL. To me his prior training as a priest must have colored his expectations how the World Teacher is going to start his mission and LCC came in handy. So the three legs of the stool became - ES, LCC, and Co-Masonry. According to the author of Tillett, Elder Brother, some additional rituals (of the co-masonry) were extended by CWL to (young) women only who were also in ES. Just my 0.02. Any feedback/thoughts. Tony From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:18:14 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Some Quotations Nov 17th 1998 Dallas offers: "Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers itself a Unit, separate and independent from the One Infinite and Eternal SAT or be-ness." WQJ THE SYNTHESIS OF OCCULT SCIENCE WQJ Articles I p. 15 "Man's self-consciousness results from the union of Atma-Buddhi with mind or Manas and also the link of Manas with Kama, without which the two higher principles can have no individuality on Earth." WQJ Articles I p. 14 "Desire is the primal germ of Mind which connects Entity with Non-entity." SD II 578-9 "The moment we are aware of it, the Inner Self is ready to help the outer man to grasp after it. The noble pursuit of this great philosophy and its moral truths is our eternal endeavor to realize them as part of our being. " Gita Notes, p. 8 "Man is truly the manifested Deity--the curse of being incarnated on this earth, an unavoidable rung on the ladder of cosmic evolution. Evil is ever predominant unto the day which Humanity is redeemed by that true Enlightenment which gives the correct perception of things." SD II 515 "Thrice purified "Gold" is Manas the conscious Soul." SD II 520 "Endowed with divine powers, and feeling in himself his inner god, each (man) felt he was a Man-god in his nature, though an animal in his physical self. The struggle between the two begins from the very day they "tasted of the fruit of the Tree of Wisdom" - a struggle for life." SD II 272 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Monday, November 16, 1998 6:02 From: John E Mead [jmead@InfoAve.Net] Subject: vnet discussion lists RE: vnet discussion lists: this is actually a feature of Lyris. It letes you know of distribution problems on the messages you sent in. *everyone* please visit the web site http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l if you do not know your password, there is an option to have lyris (web site) retrieve it. You have many options you can personally set up (like don't send me error messages). You can change email addresses, personal password etc... please visit it and set up your personal options. I can not do it for several hundred individuals. with Lyris you are *empowered* to manage your own stuff ;-) peace - john e. mead p.s. I removed Michael Lea >> From: Cybercmh@aol.com >> Reply-to: theos-l@list.vnet.net (Theosophy Study List) >> To: theos-l@list.vnet.net (Theosophy Study List) >> >> Hello, whenever I hit "reply" and try to send a message to this list, I get >>an >> error message back saying it's undeliverable to "Michael Lea," whom I've >>never >> heard of. Can somebody out there look into this problem? >> Thank you, >> Christine Hanson >> >> --- You are currently subscribed to act-l as: ELDON@THEOSOPHY.COM List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=act-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-act-l-352H@list.vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sunday, November 15, 1998 21:00 From: Theosophy Study List digest [theos-l@list.vnet.net] Subject: theos-l digest: November 15, 1998 Theosophy Study List Digest for Sunday, November 15, 1998. 1. RE: Theos-World The Dark Side 2. RE: Theos-World English usage 3. to Dallas; re: HPB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:14:17 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World The Dark Side Nov 15th 1998 AS I understand it the Universe is ruled by the Laws of Nature - harmony and cooperation being the most important. That which is constructive and universally beneficent is considered "white." That which is selfish, maleficent and destructive is considered "black." Sounds simple - but to know and understand all that Nature already contains is the only way in which we learn. There is a vast psychological conflict going on is each of us. It is the battle of the freedom of the Spirit/Soul vs. the bondage of the personal and "one-life" vision of the personality - the mask of matter that we wear. The BHAGAVAD GITA covers the pros and cons very well. Dallas >Date: Sunday, November 15, 1998 11:27 >From: Augoeides@aol.com >Subject: Re: Theos-World The Dark Side In a message dated 11/15/98 2:14:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << What is the difference between the "dark side" of the force and the "light side" of the Force? >> Involution of matter which GdeP calls the "downward or shadowy arc" and the evolution of spirit which he calls the upward "luminous arc". *Fundamentals of the Esoteric Philosophy* by GdeP, p.403 Augoeides -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:14:24 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World English usage Nov 15th 1998 Dear Friend: Why would ULT or anyone else view you as a "heretic" (ancient meaning - an inquirer) because you read or study this or that ? ULT gives everyone the freedom to study as they please, but the work done at the ULT is to study and compare such findings with Theosophy and that is all. Such strange ideas prevail ! Dallas >Date: Sunday, November 15, 1998 11:18 >From: Augoeides@aol.com >Subject: Re: Theos-World English usage In a message dated 11/15/98 5:14:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, Richtay@aol.com writes: << To neglect these documents, though HPB points to them time and time again, is to "interpret" what Theosophy is and is not. >> I've found a great deal of inspiration and knowledge from *The Enneads" by Plotinus, *The Life Divine* by Sri Aurobindo Ghose, *The Gospel of Ramakrishna* translated by Swami Nikhilananda, the commentaries on the Bhagavad Gita by Paramhansa Yogananda, *Morals and Dogma* by Albert Pike, the various writings of Sai Baba to mention a few. None of these are mentioned as part of the "approved literature" of the ULT which I suppose makes me a heretic ! Augoeides -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:28:32 -0500 From: jim meier Subject: to Dallas; re: HPB from >Nov 13th >Dallas Offers: = >"The Astral body is the desire body: -- stated by AB/CWL >But this is not the original teaching of HPB. (clip) >The reason I respect and use what HPB taught is that it is >fundamental to the whole structure of psychology and history that >THEOSOPHY represents, as I see it, myself. In some measure it is >like saying: "Don't bother with Euclid, geometry has progressed >far further than his basic work." Then, what DO WE BASE >OURSELVES ON ? That's not a bad analogy. A mathematician might well answer, "We can base our geometry upon Euclid,= but we certainly know things now that he did not, then. Non-Euclidian geometry, for example. And if we limit our understanding of mathematics = to only the laws of Euclid, we forego a part of Reality that can be known an= d understood." = In a later comment, = >Is it our intention to introduce further changes because we >presume to think we understand what She and They meant ? = >At best we can, as student-teachers, point to the sources from >which we have learned. >Have the Masters commissioned us to improve on what they wrote ? Well, yeah, they have. = Modern esotericists owe a debt to Mdm. Blavatsky that can never be repaid= . = But with all due respect to the grande dame of modern theosophy, I think she'd be apalled at the idea that theo-sophia equated to HPB-sophia (or t= o see her pronoun capitalized). = No organic form can adequately express the indwelling life at this stage = in evolution. So how could we think that the expositions of 100+ years ago are "perfect"? Rather, all things grow -- or they crystalize, and the fo= rm shatters so that the life may have expression in a more-evolved, more-appropriate form. = Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:38:11 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World Confusion in terminology: On the "Seven principles" in Man & Nature Nov 13th 1998 Dear Augoeides: That sounds pretty much like a good description but would need some enlargement or explanation as to the reason for the selection of those. I have never found a single word was enough, somehow. But such search and comparison seems to met to infuse life into the Theosophical Movement. As I see it and think about it, this life depends on a continual rebirth of meaning, new applications, and not upon explanations or formulations made "once and for all." To be vital workers and seekers we each think for ourselves and we continually invigorate our thinking by exchanges with each other, so as to build a deeper grasp of what we study and work with - the laboratory of ideas in a constantly changing and shifting universe. Turning again to the Source from which we drew our first inspiration is not, to me, retrograde, but, rather a search for the best anchor we can find. I often think of the benefit we could all have received if the Academies had taken seriously to an investigation of the ideas that Theosophy had to offer and advance. We have some evidence after 100 years or so of the prophetic aspect of some Theosophical statements, which is encouraging. But so much more could be brought out. I was reading last Thursday in the L. A. Times an article by the Times "Science Writer." It was dealing with our personal situation from the point of view of modern physics. The constant exchange of atoms makes it impossible to determine what any boundary is. Every aspect of our living body is permeated, is bombarded with vibrations of various forces that come and go and may or may not influence the physical structure we call "my body." [ Cosmic rays, Radio Waves of various kinds, neutrinos, sound waves, heat, magnetic influences, etc., etc., and, there is the constant exchange of atoms at the surface, and during the living processes that take place all the time in our bodies - and, as our World hurtles through space there is a similar exchange of earthly atoms and molecules with those that are all around us. ] Such being the case where do we find our real stability and existence ? Apparently in the fact that there is a central immovable SOMETHING which uses various "vestures, cloaks, forms of force and matter" with which to surround it, so that finally it can note physical sensations and influence the physical world. Science recognizes this but is unable to trace a complete line of relationship that bridges the gap. Perhaps Theosophy does this and the information we are given is helpful in this regard. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:46:45 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: FW: Theos-World Questions...from DARREN... Nov 14th Some answers offered by Dallas: Dear Darren: I hope the notes below may help. >Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 6:14 PM >From: D. Porter >Subject: Theos-World Questions...... Sorry, some more questions: 1 - Why should I (we) accept that 'as above, so below' is an axiom? LOOK IN A MIRROR -- IDEALS AND THOUGHT PRECEDE ALL FORMS. HOWEVER THE IMAGE IS INVERTED AND THE SEEKER HAS TO LEARN TO CONVERT WHAT HE SEES BACK TO REALITY. 2 - What is the final goal? Non-existence? COMPLETE AWARENESS AND A KNOWLEDGE/WISDOM OF THE UNIVERSE, ITS LAWS AND WORKING. EVERY LIFE WE SEEK TO ENLARGE THIS CAPACITY. 3 - Why do anything at all, especially incarnate? LAW COMPELS IT BECAUSE IN THE PAST WE HAVE DISTURBED THE DYNAMIC EQUILIBRIUM OF OUR UNIVERSE IT IS UP TO US TO RESTORE THAT HARMONY. IT IS THE LAW OF RESPONSIBILITY AND DUTY THAT COMPELS THIS AND IT IS UNIVERSAL. WE LIVE IN A UNIVERSE OF LAW. AT BASE WE ARE SPIRITUAL BEING WHO INCARNATE IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD SO THAT THE MATERIAL THERE MAY BE IMPROVED SPIRITUALLY, MORALLY AND ETHICALLY. IF WE MISBEHAVE IN THOUGHT, WORD AND DEED WE RETARD THIS PROCESS AND SUFFER. 4 - Where is Guatama Buddha right now? He knows that we are all just figments of his imagination - so why help illusory beings? The BUDDHA IS ALIVE, WELL AND WORKING HARD. WHEN HE BALANCED HIS KARMIC DEBT HE HAD TWO OPTIONS: 1. TO RETIRE AND "REST" AND 2. TO CONTINUE WORKING FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL THOSE AROUND HIM WHO HAD NOT YET ATTAINED TO BUDDHA-HOOD. HE CHOSE THE LATTER COURSE [see SD I 207-210 if you have that book ] THAT IS THE TEACHING OF THE MAHAYANA SCHOOL OF BUDDHISM. 5- Is loneliness the driving force of the absolute? NO - THE ABSOLUTE IS WITHOUT ANY QUALITIES OR LIMITATIONS SUCH AS WE ARE SURROUNDED WITH IN TIME SPACE AND MOTION. IT IS THE ETERNAL BACKGROUND FROM WHICH ALL EMERGES. [ see SD I pp. 14 - 19 ] 6- Does every individual sperm have a unique 'entity' ? YES - IT IS THE "EFFECT" OF ITS OWN ENERGIC SELF. IT STARTS AS A SPIRITUAL FORCE AND ESTABLISHES UNDER THE LAW OF KARMA (which is its past series of actions and choices) THE CAUSES FOR ITS EMERGENCE AS THE VEHICLE OF A MIND-ENTITY - A HUMAN BEING. HOWEVER IT IS THE MIND-ENTITY THAT CAUSES THE "GERM" AND NOT THE "GERM" THAT CAUSES THE MIND. 7- Is onanism murder of sperm? USE A DICTIONARY, AND CONSULT YOUR OWN SENSE OF JUSTICE AND FAIRNESS TO THE ASSEMBLY OF LIVING BEINGS THAT CONSTITUTE THE SPERM. KARMA IS BALANCE, FAIRNESS AND JUSTICE. WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF "ONANISM ?" NONE CAN EVER ESCAPE THE RESULTS OF THEIR CHOICES. HENCE KARMA IS UNIVERSAL AND ALSO INDIVIDUAL AND PERSONAL IN ITS ACTION - THAT IS WHY MOTIVE AND ETHICS AND MORALS ARE SO IMPORTANT. THE PRACTICE OF BROTHERHOOD IS THE BEGINNING OF THE PATH THAT LEADS TO THE BALANCE OF KARMA AND BUDDHA-HOOD. WE TEND TO THINK BECAUSE WE USE A LARGE PHYSICAL BODY AND PHYSICALLY THAT THE SPERM OR GERM IS SMALL THAT WE CAN BULLY IT. HOWEVER IT HAS A STRENGTH EQUAL OR SUPERIOR TO OURS AND WE MANIPULATE IT OR USE IT AT OUR PERIL - CONSIDERING THE FUTURE CONSEQUENCES UNDER KARMA THAT MAY BECOME OURS. 8- What happens to the sperm that don't make it - try and try again? AS JUST SAID THE GERM OR SPERM IS NOT THE CAUSE. WHO OR WHAT GENERATED IT AND WHY ? IT HAS ITS OWN LIFE AND WE CAN ACT AS ITS ASSISTANTS OR ITS OBSTRUCTORS - THESE ARE THE ACTIONS OF KARMA - WHICH WE INVOKE WHEN WE ACT. 9- Does the egg have all 7 principles before fertilization? POTENTIALLY YES. ALL BEINGS HAVE THE 7 PRINCIPLES EITHER LATENT OR ACTIVE IN THEM. CONSIDER THE MEANING OF THE IDEA OF "MONAD" - YOU REALLY OUGHT TO USE AND STUDY "THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY" YOU WOULD FIND THAT MOST OF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED THERE. 10 - Can more than one entity occupy a physical body at the same time? WHY ? UNDER WHAT LAW DO YOU THINK THIS MIGHT OCCUR ? [ see SD II 167 ] FOR A MORE COMPLETE ANSWER TO THIS. If you wish to deal with Theosophy then you must become familiar with at least one of the basic texts. Try using the KEY. Make sure it has an Index and that you use this under the headings you are interested in. ========== DALLAS ================== I HOPE THIS IS OF SOME HELP. Dal. Regards, Darren the Seeker -- THEOSOPHY WORLD-Theosophical Talk-theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:52:02 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World Questions...... >From: "D. Porter" >Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:13:51 -0800 >Subject: Theos-World Questions...... Sorry, some more questions: 1 - Why should I (we) accept that 'as above, so below' is an axiom? LOOK IN A MIRROR -- IDEALS AND THOUGHT PRECEDE ALL FORMS 2 - What is the final goal? Non-existence? COMPLETE AWARENESS AND A KNOWLEDGE/WISDOM OF THE UNIVERSE, ITS LAWS AND WORKING 3 - Why do anything at all, especially incarnate? LAW COMPELS IT BECAUSE IN THE PAST WE HAVE DISTURBED THE DYNAMIC EQUILIBRIUM OF OUR UNIVERSE IT IS UP TO US TO RESTORE THAT HARMONY. IT IS THE LAW OF RESPONSIBILITY AND DUTY THAT COMPELS THIS AND IT IS UNIVERSAL. 4 - Where is Guatama Buddha right now? He knows that we are all just figments of his imagination - so why help illusory beings? The BUDDHA IS ALIVE, WELL AND WORKING HARD. WHEN HE BALANCED HIS KARMIC DEBT HE HAD TWO OPTIONS: 1. TO RETIRE AND "REST" AND 2. TO CONTINUE WORKING FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL THOSE AROUND HIM WHO HAD NOT YET ATTAINED TO BUDDHA-HOOD. HE CHOSE THE LATTER COURSE [see SD I 207-210 if you have that book ] 5- Is loneliness the driving force of the absolute? NO - THE ABSOLUTE IS WITHOUT ANY QUALITIES OR LIMITATIONS SUCH AS WE ARE SURROUNDED WITH IN TIME SPACE AND MOTION. IT IS THE ETERNAL BACKGROUND FROM WHICH ALL EMERGES. [ see SD I pp. 14 - 19 ] 6- Does every individual sperm have a unique 'entity' ? YES - IT IS THE "EFFECT" OF ITS OWN ENERGIC SELF. IT STARTS AS A SPIRITUAL FORCE AND ESTABLISHES UNDER THE LAW OF KARMA (which is its past series of actions and choices) THE CAUSES FOR ITS EMERGENCE AS THE VEHICLE OF A MIND-ENTITY - A HUMAN BEING. HOWEVER IT IS THE MIND-ENTITY THAT CAUSES THE "GERM" AND NOT THE "GERM" THAT CAUSES THE MIND. 7- Is onanism murder of sperm? USE A DICTIONARY, AND CONSULT YOUR OWN SENSE OF JUSTICE AND FAIRNESS TO THE ASSEMBLY OF LIVING BEINGS THAT CONSTITUTE THE SPERM. KARMA IS BALANCE, FAIRNESS AND JUSTICE. WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF "ONANISM ?" NONE CAN EVER ESCAPE THE RESULTS OF THEIR CHOICES. HENCE KARMA IS UNIVERSAL AND ALSO INDIVIDUAL AND PERSONAL IN ITS ACTION - THAT IS WHY MOTIVE AND ETHICS AND MORALS ARE SO IMPORTANT. THE PRACTICE OF BROTHERHOOD IS THE BEGINNING OF THE PATH THAT LEADS TO THE BALANCE OF KARMA AND BUDDHA-HOOD. 8- What happens to the sperm that don't make it - try and try again? AS JUST SAID THE GERM OR SPERM IS NOT THE CAUSE. WHO OR WHAT GENERATED IT AND WHY ? 9- Does the egg have all 7 principles before fertilization? POTENTIALLY YES. ALL BEINGS HAVE THE 7 PRINCIPLES EITHER LATENT OR ACTIVE IN THEM. CONSIDER THE MEANING OF THE IDEA OF "MONAD" - YOU REALLY OUGHT TO USE AND STUDY "THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY" YOU WOULD FIND THAT MOST OF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED THERE. 10 - Can more than one entity occupy a physical body at the same time? WHY ? UNDER WHAT LAW DO YOU THINK THIS MIGHT OCCUR ? [ see SD II 167 ] FOR A MORE COMPLETE ANSWER TO THIS. ========== DALLAS ================== I HOPE THIS IS OF SOME HELP. Dal. Regards, Darren the Seeker From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:52:49 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Humor Any English Professors want to proof read? These are spelling and grammar errors found on chart review at a hospital on the east coast: The lab test indicated abnormal lover function. The baby was delivered, the cord clamped and cut, and handed to the pediatrician, who breathed and cried immediately. Exam of genitalia reveals that he is circus sized. The skin was moist and dry. Rectal exam revealed a normal size thyroid. The patient had waffles for breakfast and anorexia for lunch. She stated that she had been constipated for most of her life until 1989 when she got a divorce. Between you and me, we ought to be able to get this lady pregnant. The patient was in his usual state of good health until his airplane ran out of gas and crashed. I saw your patient today, who is still under our car for physical therapy. The patient was prepped and raped in the usual manner. Examination reveals a well-developed male laying in bed with his family in no distress. Patient was alert and unresponsive. When she fainted, her eyes rolled around the room. The patient lives at home with his mother, father, and pet turtle, who is presently enrolled in day care three times a week. Bleeding started in the rectal area and continued all the way to Los Angeles. Both breasts are equal and reactive to light and accommodation. She is numb from her toes down. Exam of genitalia was completely negative except for the right foot. While in the emergency room, she was examined, x-rated and sent home. The patient was to have a bowel resection. However, he took a job as a stockbroker instead. The patient suffers from occasional, constant, infrequent headaches. Coming from Detroit, this man has no children Submitted by: Brandy Collins From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:29:32 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World : Confusion in terminology -- Belief -- Original Teachings -- Nov 13th Dallas Offers: "The Astral body is the desire body: -- stated by AB/CWL But this is not the original teaching of HPB. See KEY PP 90, 132, 173; and the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, also the SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. II, pp. 590 - 634. So we have the changes in nomenclature made AFTER HPB had passed away and was not able to refute or correct these statements - and so what we call "Theosophy" today has problems - and these are traceable directly to Annie Besant and C W Leadbeater who made changes-for whatever reason -and very few students went back to find out what HPB had taught. Please. When I write I do so on my own responsibility. There seems to be a growing tendency to ascribe to what I write a "ULT" connection. I am an "associate" of the ULT but not a spokesman. The reason I respect and use what HPB taught is that it is fundamental to the whole structure of psychology and history that THEOSOPHY represents, as I see it, myself. In some measure it is like saying: "Don't bother with Euclid, geometry has progressed far further than his basic work." Then, what DO WE BASE OURSELVES ON ? And then we have those who tell newcomers: "Don't read HPB, she is too difficult and you won't understand her." If we are going to use terms at cross purposes then there will never be a resolution, but if, historically we change the alteration of meanings to their source and seek to verify the accuracy of meaning and intent, then much can be resolved. But this requires study and perhaps back-tracking. But, I would say it can prove very valuable. All true scholars have to re-evaluate their sources and reasonings - look at what is being currently done with the Bible - and all the changes that have to be made to put into English the "original" mare able to see them more accurately. The teachings that emanated from the Masters of Wisdom ( are we conceding that as a proposition ? ) through HPB are about 120 or so years old. They are in English - a language that we still use in pretty much the same sense as she and They did. How are we going to explain all these changes that have been introduced ? Is it our intention to introduce further changes because we presume to think we understand what She and They meant ? Just what are our credentials ? Can we say we have MASTERED all that They taught ? Can we write an ISIS UNVEILED or a SECRET DOCTRINE, or even a KEY TO THEOSOPHY -- and what about a VOICE OF THE SILENCE ? At best we can, as student-teachers, point to the sources from which we have learned. What gives us the right to belittle or denigrate HPB's presentation ? Have the Masters commissioned us to improve on what they wrote ? I cannot conceive of anyone making such a claim, and yet I see evidence of it many times when I read what writers have issued after HPB died, and she could not refute them. What is wrong with humbly restudying those teachings and writings ? Have we been commissioned to deny to others the opportunity of consulting those teachings by an attitude which we have adopted ? ======================================== "Belief" -- Is it not usually a statement of ignorance ? In another posting today I read " I believe" several times - but that is not (as I understand it) the method or use of THEOSOPHY. Theosophy presents propositions and offers a structure and method, which if studied and used gives coherency - again, that is as I see it. Everyone is invited to test it - especially "its logical coherency." No one is expected to believe in it, or to have "faith" in it. All students of Theosophy are invited to strictly avoid employ designations or words without explaining the relations of those ideas (in words) to others. If I take a long time to exhaust a subject, it is because of this attempt to explain what I see of meaning of. These are a few thoughts that arise today. Best wishes, Dallas ==================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 19:19:50 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World Confusion in terminology Nov 13th 1998 As far as I have been able to determine the "Astral Body" like all "principles" is 7-fold. Therefore there is an aspect of it which serves the "Kamic Principle" (desires and passions). Kama (desires and passions) are a distinct passion in themselves - emotional, instinctual, and without the mind they are purposive but have no concept of the future. The mind furnishes through memory and anticipation (FANCY) the parameters from which emotion gains a view of the past and a hope for the future. That is how I see it. As an example: Take a book on your desk - it is physical in matter and form. 2. Underlying the physical molecules and structures is that electro-magnetic lattice-work or mold that allows the chemical and physical laws to operate and form the basis for the aggregation of physical molecules. There is constant movement and exchange of molecular and sub-molecular forms and forces, yet SOMETHING keeps order there and retains the mold for the physical which persists for as long as the selected materials (paper, ink, binding, etc.) last under their physical and other Natural laws. 3. There is a vital energy connected with these and with the whole book, and this might be called its material vitality or Prana. It might be called and classified with all the various forces that pervade the Universe and which come and go through physical matter leaving relatively undisturbed. There is with each object a particular force called into being by the motive and intent of the person who devises or shapes it. 4. The book embodies statements of emotional and ethical nature - which correspond to the Kamic principle. The author may also hope that the impact of his feelings will affect the reader and perhaps educe corresponding responses in these readers of sympathy or antipathy, or some mixture of those two emotional extremes. 5. To create a book there has to be thought and planning, a reason and a logic and a purpose, also the will to record in words the thoughts of the author. Memory and anticipations of the future, or fancy in depicting action, words and thoughts may be adduced by the author to frame his story or to place the results of his discoveries, observations or explorations before the reader. This may be considered the MANASIC side of the book. Or that of the soul and mind relationship between writer and reader. 6. Most books are written with a purpose: to amuse, to teach, to instruct to bring facts of life and law before the reader's consideration - if these speak of ideals and verities, truths and laws that are Universal, just, fair, and reasonable we might say that this represents the BUDDHIC or the wisdom aspect of the book. This has to do with Karma as the universal law of harmony that adjusts effect to cause everywhere and in all things and for all persons. 6. Finally there is that aspect of the book which causes an impact on the basic structure and nature of the reader, on the World and Time he lives in, Space is altered, disturbed - but this is the Space, Time and Motion of the manifested Universe, and, underlying that undisturbed and unmoved is the ABSOLUTE - SPIRIT itself - and this might be considered the unifying and harmonizing aspect of the book - taking things in their ultimate condition and meaning. In fact it is quite impossible to make any description of this. Yet, taking this basic concept, all differentiation emanates from IT periodically. These 7 aspects are perhaps intermixed in some of their functions, but, none of them is totally isolated from the rest. The analysis is only one of the ways to look at an object or a subject. If we adopt and use HPB's terminology and definitions on which the whole structure of THEOSOPHY as a philosophy is based we will find that the several departures therefrom can be resolved. This is not "going backward. Rather it is going forward into the area of current and present progress and mutual search and understanding. This constant harping on "advance" and "new" shows an unfortunate LINEARITY which obscures the perfect sphericity and multi-dimensional aspect of Theosophy. If we take the 7 principles and stack them one over the other we have drawn a LINE. If we consider that each of these 7 "Principles" are them selves 7-fold, we may be able to draw a square of 49 parts ( 7 x 7 ). We now have a flat surface. If we further consider that each of the 49 parts arranged in a flat square are further divisible into 7 each we will have a cube of 7 x 7 x 7 = 343 - and we have passed to the 3rd dimension of a solid. If we turn to THE SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I p 251-2 we will find that HPB gives the Occult basis for considering the many dimensions of Space. On pp. 257-8 she describes the rules that relate to these. It makes very suggestive and interesting reading. [ see also I 628 and II 591 ] Best wishes, Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:33:09 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 11, 1998 Dallas wrote: >As I surmise from what Kym posts there seems to be very little >familiarity with Theosophical texts and expressions. That's it, Dallas. You've figured me out. All my rantings and ravings at you for being too arrogant and too frosty was really just me trying to cover my ignorance of Theosophy. Congratulations. You and your followers (Frank, Eldon, Augoeides, and all the other knowledgeable Theosophists) have passed the tests of compassion, understanding, and inclusion. I am sure the Masters are very proud. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 02:27:55 -0800 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 11, 1998 Nov 12th 1998 Dear Doss: Please allow me to join with you in stating how much I appreciate the work of Eldon and John in allowing free run to various contributions. We can all learn from each other, even when there are misunderstandings. But the light of freedom and of information clears most cobwebs away. After all, we all work for the future. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 04:39:58 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Biodhisattva Nov 12th 1998 A few days ago there was an inquiry about "Bodhisattva." HPB in THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, p 59 says "...he whose essence (sattva) has become intelligence (Bodhi); those who need but one more incarnation to become perfect Buddhas, i.e. entitled to Nirvana. This, as applied to "Manushi" (terrestrial) Buddhas. In a metaphysical sense "Bodhisattva" is a title given to the sons Of the celestial Dhyani Buddhas." Glos p. 59 More references: Glossary p. 311 (Suddha sattva); 206, 101 Voice p. 77fn, SD I 42 571-3 II 34fn 178 Isis II 616 HPB LETTERS to Mr. A.P.Sinnett p. 242-3 Best wishes, Dallas =================================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:05:17 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 11, 1998 >For instance, where is the long-awaited Dictionary of >Esoteric Terms by GdeP? Emmett Small said that the >Glossary is an abbreviated version. > >Augoeides A good question. GdeP's Encyclopedia with over 4,000 entries, much of them not to find elsewhere was proof read by GdeP himself and READY for the printer. Why Conger and Long never published it. There was an unofficial saying in Pasadena: It is of no use, it is outmoded. Very strange. They kicked of the ES members and disconnected the ES from their new TS. So I wonder from which source comes their knowledge. Obviously they knew more than GdeP about occult matters. It is interesting that Emmett Small who was an intimate coworker of GdeP and serves under him as the Head of the Printing Office he had a copy of that printed sheets. Over the years he always was fair and gave the new leaders the karmic chance to publish it and -- he spoke out, over many years privately and later public in his outstanding Eclectic Theosophists. Several times he begged the Pasadena leaders to fulfill the expressed wishes of GdeP. One fine day Emmett had visitors and he opened friendly his door. Later when they were gone he had do make the surprising and shocking ascertainment that the printing sheets were stolen. Nowadays - nearly sixty years later - there are rumors that Pasadena will publish it with many alternations. It is said that some scientists are working on the manuscripts to make it "modern". A questionable way, because there are other books that are even much older, f.e. the SD, the VoS, the ML. Why not "editing" them also? Are the Theosophists too stupid to read verbatim texts? Can one trust in the accuracy of the publications from Pasadena? One example: I have before me GdeP's "Man in evolution", the one the genuine version printed 1941 in Point Loma during GdeP's lifetime, the other one the new edition by Pasadena of 1977. A quick comparison is shocking: The whole second chapter is canceled, also the Preface of GdeP and the following foreword by H.T. Edge (he was a personal pupil since HPB). OTOH the Pasadena version has a foreword by Grace F. Knoche! One can only come to the conclusion that the new editors have more spiritual and intellectual knowledge than their teacher to whom they were pledged. Why it is verboten to read to genuine texts by GdeP and H.T. Edge? Is there fear of something? More could be said. Any more questions? Thanks to the gods that we now have the uncensored maillists, it can be the right medicine to cure the theosophical movements from some serious illness. Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:07:44 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Michael Lea >Very strange! MICHAEL LEA is an America OnLine >screen name. Whose in charge of this list? Eldon? >Christine is having the same trouble. We both use >AOL. Doss, if you know who is in charge of Theos-L, >could you pass on the information. Thanks. > >Augoeides I receive always this strange message, too. Who is Michael Lea? A new X file matter? Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:00:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Maillists At 02:05 PM 11/12/1998 +0100, Frank Reitemeyer wrote: >Thanks to the gods that we now have the uncensored maillists, it can be the right medicine to cure the theosophical movements from some serious illness. Frank< You have made my day. Eversince man/woman started thinking, the effort to control the flow of information has been going on. Finally, the powers be found a way to destroy this tendency and here comes the maillists, uncensored. It appears that the organizations and their leaders are at a quandary what to do. So for now the approach seems to be that of an ostrich. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 09:02:14 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Michael Lea At 02:07 PM 11/12/1998 +0100, you wrote: >>Very strange! MICHAEL LEA is an America OnLine >>screen name. Whose in charge of this list? Eldon? >>Christine is having the same trouble. We both use >>AOL. Doss, if you know who is in charge of Theos-L, >>could you pass on the information. Thanks. >> >>Augoeides > >I receive always this strange message, too. Who is Michael Lea? A new X file >matter? > >Frank John E Mead is the owner of the list. He has already received this msg and should take care of it soon. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:30:22 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 11, 1998 In a message dated 11/12/98 9:27:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, Frank writes: << I have before me GdeP's "Man in evolution," the one the genuine version printed 1941 in Point Loma during GdeP's lifetime, the other one the new edition by Pasadena of 1977. A quick comparison is shocking: The whole second chapter is canceled, also the Preface of GdeP and the following foreword by H.T. Edge (he was a personal pupil since HPB). OTOH the Pasadena version has a foreword by Grace F. Knoche! One can only come to the conclusion that the new editors have more spiritual and intellectual knowledge than their teacher to whom they were pledged. >> A similar situation occurred to the Self-Realization Fellowship (SRF) after the passing of its Founder, Paramhansa Yogananda. Their was a brief presidency of a close devotee followed by that of Daya Mata. During her long reign, which continues to this day, all kinds of revisions were made in Yogananda's books. Various editions of *The Autobiography of a Yogi* are indicators of who's in and who's out. In the first folio edition, Swami Premananda's picture is in the book and then deleted in later editions when he fell out of favor. This has happened to a number of people whose pictures have appeared and disappeared between its pages. The Praecepta lessons have been altered from the original to the point where one wonders if there are any of Yogananda's writings in them at all. There have also been unpublished manuscripts of Yoganandaji which Daya Mata has been sitting for years. You'd think they would be ready to hatch by now! If someone has something to say then that person should write his or her own books and not tamper with someone else's work. Daya Mata seems to have done both. There is an organization called the Amrita Foundation which has taken upon itself the task to publish the original works of Yogananda including his hitherto unpublished commentaries on the New Testament. (Amrita is similar to what Point Loma Publications is to the Pasadena TS). Best Wishes, Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:17:03 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: looking for the good in others Eldon wrote: >This seems like a personal attack, a form of lashing out in anger, >rather than a kind-hearted pointing out of someone's shortcomings >in a way that can lead to constructive results. Well, hell yes! I am angry and it is a personal attack. I am not going to say "oh, gee, Dallas, I know you're really trying to be sweet, but you're coming across all wrong." Hello? I DO NOT THINK DALLAS GIVES A DAMN AS HE HAS SHOWN IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Have I made myself clear now? Take me serious. I know exactly how I feel and what I think and what I mean to convey regarding my thoughts on Dallas and his motivations. >It's customary to >speak of shortcomings in the form of "our problems", giving both >personal examples as well as pointing out examples of the other's >faults. Oh, please. Do not patronize me, Eldon. >Is it correct to assume that Dallas doesn't have your respect >because he consistently disagrees with you? Again, let me make it clear - Dallas DOES NOT HAVE MY RESPECT because of THE WAY HE CONTINUALLY TREATS PEOPLE ON THE LISTS. His arrogance is just too much. There have been many times that people have disagreed with me, Eldon, but I have not reacted to them in the way I have with Dallas. But you know this already, Eldon, thus I am perplexed on why you would imply such a thing. You suggest I offer Dallas 'writing tips?!' Are you serious? Well, it is clear that you did not pay much attention to any of my postings on theos-talk nor the responses that Dallas gave regarding them. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:52:59 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 10, 1998 Frank wrote: >Kym, as you recommended yourself that one must have more trust and faith and >hope for mankind you should believe Dallas more. Or is Dallas not human? If >not, then WHAT is he??? First, I never said "mankind," I said 'humanity.' Second, your conclusion does not follow your argument. Example: it is not inconsistent to love and have faith in humanity and still fight against the particular actions of human beings. General case in point - the monks and people of Tibet. Third, I would wager that you are really just playing games, Frank (aka: ringding). Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:42:04 -0800 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 10, 1998 Nov. 11th 1998 Dallas offers: As I see it the difference between my approach to Theosophy and that of Kym is that I have many years of familiarity with theosophical texts and use the wording and expressions that I have learned to trust after much testing and thought. As I surmise from what Kym posts there seems to be very little familiarity with Theosophical texts and expressions. In this I may be wrong, but when I have attempted to convey ideas that to me are valid I have been met with contumely - which is hardly constructive. Imagine trying to discuss Goethe, Plato or Kant or the Bible without using the written material as a common base. Theosophy has certain texts that are useful for all of us to be familiar with if we are going to discuss it. Whatever we may feel about this or that, or someone, is irrelevant. If we can set differences aside we develop a more impersonal approach - one which could be described as more "universal and inclusive." As far as I am concerned, I am looking for truth and suppose that others who discuss are also in search of that. And truth has no barriers or definition other than its universality and impersonality. Does this mean that "emotion" and "feelings" are to be abandoned ? No - we all enjoy various mixes of these, but in my esteem they need to be understood, and the mixes in other people need to be understood also. It is important that there should be goodwill on both sides. Without that everything degenerates into a shouting match, which might be emotionally relieving, physically draining and an entire waste of time in the long run, because no concession or compromise is sought. If, for instance we were discussing mathematics or some aspect of physics, we would start out from the common basis of arithmetic or what science teaches on the selected subject - and the rest, however complex, follows in "logical" sequence. If we discuss "philosophy" [ or the "philosophy of Theosophy" ] we find ourselves in a bog, usually. That is because there seem at present to be no clear-cut basis to start from and everyone begins with some propositions in common, and others which are hand-me-downs from religious training, tradition, our own so-far-developed concepts, or hear-say. When I engage in answering or writing I am trying to get at some common "norms." A basis from which we can both work, and understand. Is this a useless expectation ? I believe that it is largely our own so-far-developed concepts that are abraded by others, and we rise to defend those cherished concepts and ideas. If there is ever to be dialog of a constructive type then there has to be a readiness to share ideas. To share ideas there has to be a common base and a willingness to consider propositions that are similar in thinking or talking or writing about similar things. If I recommend books (or offer sources to be checked) it is to short-cut long explanations and to give my interlocutor an opportunity of reading what I have read, and which seems to me to be valuable, and asking in effect: "Does that help ?." No more. It is very probable that even if those references are used we may see things differently. I try to not allow myself to characterize another - seeing that I consider as important the fact that at our essential base we are indeed all of us ONE. Only superficially do we appear to be "different." And even those "differences" can be characterized within a uniform framework of basic qualities and capacities relating to consciousness, intelligence and emotion. It is quite true that I favor the rational approach as it organizes (to me) any attempt at exchange. It is not controversy that I am interested in. That gets no one anywhere. As to one's particular set of emotions, I favor the concept of control and management. I rule them. They do not rule "me" - and there is a constant internal war in this regard, of course, as everyone who has tried to deal with their own "nature" knows. I hold that the "mind" is superior to the "emotional nature" which is also "m ine." And I have noticed that emotions usually have no concept of the future and the damage which they can cause when allowed an exaggerated lead and control. Only the mental faculty provides them with a glimpse into the future and therefore a consideration of potential results. Without the mind they are illusions and fancies. And that's about all I can think of saying on this subject Dal ================================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:55:39 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More on censorship of Nathan's submission to Olcott Considering the minuscule traffic on the (above referred) olcott maillist, sending all the posts to theos-xxxx, which are uncontrolled, uncensored, unmoderated, unedited, etc. allows all of us to be better informed and allow us to make up our own minds. As I have already mentioned, I became aware of many facts, historical and otherwise, in two years of reading the mail on theos-xxxx that I did not know in so many decades and more of reading official publications. This relates to all aspects of theosophy and theosophical organizations. The power of uncensored maillists are here to stay in the every expanding cyberworld. Thanks to John Mead and Eldon Tucker for providing all of us with uncensored maillists, I am sure that they are reaping very good Karma, if you believe in Karma. ....mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:14:27 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: More on censorship of Nathan's submission to Olcott >As I have already mentioned, I became aware of many facts, historical and >otherwise, in two years of reading the mail on theos-xxxx that I did not >know in so many decades and more of reading official publications. This >relates to all aspects of theosophy and theosophical organizations. > >The power of uncensored maillists are here to stay in the every expanding >cyberworld. > >Thanks to John Mead and Eldon Tucker for providing all of us with >uncensored maillists, I am sure that they are reaping very good Karma, if >you believe in Karma. > >....mkr I join the thanks to John and Eldon, I have made the same experiences as Doss. Learned more in three years on the net that in many years before in Lodges and offical, filtered journals. Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:22:35 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 10, 1998 >Frank wrote: > >>Kym, as you recommended yourself that one must have more trust and faith and >>hope for mankind you should believe Dallas more. Or is Dallas not human? If >>not, then WHAT is he??? > >First, I never said "mankind," I said 'humanity.' > >Second, your conclusion does not follow your argument. Example: it is not >inconsistent to love and have faith in humanity and still fight against the >particular actions of human beings. General case in point - the monks and >people of Tibet. > >Third, I would wager that you are really just playing games, Frank (aka: >ringding). > >Kym Ah, I understand, Kym. You love humanity, but you don't love Dallas. Therefore Dallas can't be a human, otherwise you would even love him when he does actions you don't like. Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:57:52 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 09, 1998 In a message dated 11/10/98 2:21:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ringding@csi.com writes: << The present leader are much engaged to shorten and alter the texts of GdeP. We need a movement that requires unaltered, verbatim texts of GdeP. >> For instance, where is the long-awaited Dictionary of Esoteric Terms by GdeP? Emmett Small said that the Glossary is an abbreviated version. Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:03:29 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 09, 1998 In a message dated 11/10/98 11:38:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, Cybercmh@aol.com writes: << Curious - what does the Fortean Society do/believe in? >> Dear Christine, Charles Fort was an original American eccentric who spent most of his inherited money investigating anomalous happenings, like strange rains which would deposit small frogs and fish on dry land, the sightings of sea monsters, bigfoot, unexplained objects in the sky, instances of spontaneous combustion, lost continents, etc., etc. He was, in a sense, the 19th century precursor of FOX TV's program "Sightings." The website for the International Fortean Organization is http://www.research.umbc.edu/~frizzell/info. There are dozens of Fortean Societies around the world. We had a great bunch of speakers this time at the FortFest: John Michell, a Cambridge graduate, the author of THE VIEW OVER ATLANTIS, ECCENTRIC LIVES AND PECULIAR NOTIONS, etc., Colin Wilson, the author of over 100 books, but better known for THE OCCULT, FROM ATLANTIS TO THE SPHINX, and THE PHILOSOPHER'S STONE. Joscelyn Godwin, a professor at Colgate College, the author of THE THEOSOPHICAL ENLIGHTENMENT (an excellent history!), MYSTERY RELIGIONS IN THE ANCIENT WORLD, and ARKTOS, THE POLAR MYTH IN SCIENCE, SYMBOLISM AND NAZI REVIVAL, Ivor Zapp, a professor at the University of Columbia and author of ATLANTIS IN AMERICA. There were many other interesting speakers as well, including Tom Valone, the film director of FREE ENERGY: THE RACE TO POINT ZERO. Needless to say, I got many autographed books and met a bunch of fascinating people, as I usually do when I attend their meetings. Try to get on their mailing list. Best Wishes, Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:08:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Fortean Society Meeting Are the proceedings of the meeting going to be published? ..doss At 06:03 PM 11/11/1998 EST, Augoeides@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 11/10/98 11:38:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, Cybercmh@aol.com writes: << Curious - what does the Fortean Society do/believe in? >> >Dear Christine, Charles Fort was an original American eccentric who spent most of his inherited money investigating anomalous happenings, like strange rains which would deposit small frogs and fish on dry land, the sightings of sea monsters, bigfoot, unexplained objects in the sky, instances of spontaneous combustion, lost continents, etc., etc. He was, in a sense, the 19th century precursor of FOX TV's program "Sightings." >>> Clip<<< From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:25:18 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More on censorship of Nathan's submission to Olcott Is any elected/appointed leader(s) of any organizations reading this? I hope so. mkr Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > I join the thanks to John and Eldon, I have made the same experiences as > Doss. Learned more in three years on the net that in many years before in > Lodges and offical, filtered journals. > Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:34:16 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: tech trouble Hello, whenever I hit "reply" and try to send a message to this list, I get an error message back saying it's undeliverable to "Michael Lea," whom I've never heard of. Can somebody out there look into this problem? Thank you, Christine Hanson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:11:12 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome Theosophy International welcomes Katinka Hesselink! Personal welcomes to hesse600@tem.nhl.nl Alan :0) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:32:26 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: Fortean Society Meeting In a message dated 11/11/98 6:09:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, ramadoss@eden.com writes: << Are the proceedings of the meeting going to be published? ..doss >> The meetings were tape recorded and filmed (video). I'll check into it. I'm having trouble with the Theos-l List. I keep getting the following reply every time I post an email to there which is as follows: << Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to: MICHAEL LEA (The name was not found at the remote site. Check that the name has been entered correctly.) >> Very strange! MICHAEL LEA is an America OnLine screen name. Whose in charge of this list? Eldon? Christine is having the same trouble. We both use AOL. Doss, if you know who is in charge of Theos-L, could you pass on the information. Thanks. Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:59:45 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical History At 08:01 PM 11/9/1998 -0800, Eldon B Tucker wrote: >The question of "esoteric succession" is not really a divisive issue -- as I see it -- since I expect the Masters work through whoever works for the cause, and not because of someone's rank, position, or claims to esoteric ties. This being so, it's not important to fight others to win universal acceptance of someone's particular claim "to be the one and only, real, genuine thing," if there was such a thing. Hopefully in the future, the Point Loma and Pasadena Theosophists can work side-by-side for furthering the spiritual work and promoting the esoteric philosophy. This situation is a case where those in the Adyar T.S. could learn from history -- the Point Loma history -- seeing the problems and dynamics involved when groups are organization along the teacher/teaching model, as opposed to the study-hall/read-your-own-book model, or one of many other types of models. The important thing that the Point Loma Theosophists learned -- and members of any group can learn -- is that any one group isn't "the only show in town," and that the work goes on, if you're sincere in heart and dedicated, regardless of if the leadership of a particular theosophical group appreciate you or not.< -- Eldon ----------------------- Your information and observations are very helpful to understand some of the history as well being very timely. The intersection of the teacher/student model with that of the democratic model, the former forming the part of the secret side of action, coupled with the who is the true successor teacher seems to have caused some of the problems with theosophical' organizations. Also certain additional factors occur to me. We have the entrepreneurial type vs the organizational/military hierarchical type of individuals.The former type will never be comfortable with the latter type of organization and vice versa. In addition, the prevailing world-wide condition compared to that of the Victorian/colonial era. Today there is demand for more freedom and openness and a democratic approach and less of appeal for the Victorian/colonial type hierarchical (need to know secrecy) approach. Added is the modern electronic and communication technology that is changing the landscape. It appears that any organization which wants to succeed in its mission, has to keep up with the changing times and modify its approach towards its mission. Using wrong approach at a wrong era cannot but lead to dismal results, even leading to bankruptcy and disappearance of the organization. Some of the thoughts expressed above are based on my first hand experience. I have seen how the Victorian/colonial model is easily and comfortably accepted in the East and compared to what I see today in the USA. The entrepreneurial vs organizational/military hierarchical model, I have seen in action. The former is able to act quickly and efficiently and creatively and get results with minimal resources. The latter is capable of a very large and massive effort or a where a large capital investment is needed. The future of the organizations may ultimately depend on how well they adapt to the changing conditions. On the other hand, a collection of individuals networking towards a common ideal can achieve results in spite of or ignoring organizations. It would be interesting to revisit this subject, say 10 years from now to see what all has happened in the meanwhile. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 23:03:56 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical History +++/+++ Eldon B Tucker wrote: The question of "esoteric succession" is not really a divisive issue -- as I see it -- since I expect the Masters work through whoever works for the cause, and not because of someone's rank, position, or claims to esoteric ties. This being so, it's not important to fight others to win universal acceptance of someone's particular claim "to be the one and only, real, genuine thing," if there was such a thing. Hopefully in the future, the Point Loma and Pasadena Theosophists can work side-by-side for furthering the spiritual work and promoting the esoteric philosophy. This situation is a case where those in the Adyar T.S. could learn from history -- the Point Loma history -- seeing the problems and dynamics involved when groups are organization along the teacher/teaching model, as opposed to the study-hall/read-your-own-book model, or one of many other types of models. The important thing that the Point Loma Theosophists learned -- and members of any group can learn -- is that any one group isn't "the only show in town," and that the work goes on, if you're sincere in heart and dedicated, regardless of if the leadership of a particular theosophical group appreciate you or not. +++++++++++++++++++++ Your information and observations are very helpful to understand some of the history as well being very timely. The intersection of the teacher/student model with that of the democratic model, the former forming the part of the secret side of action, coupled with the who is the true successor teacher seems to have caused some of the problems with theosophical' organizations. Also certain additional factors occur to me. We have the entrepreneurial type vs the organizational/military hierarchical type of individuals.The former type will never be comfortable with the latter type of organization and vice versa. In addition, the prevailing world-wide condition compared to that of the Victorian/colonial era. Today there is demand for more freedom and openness and a democratic approach and less of appeal for the Victorian/colonial type hierarchical (need to know secrecy) approach. Added is the modern electronic and communication technology that is changing the landscape. It appears that any organization which wants to succeed in its mission, has to keep up with the changing times and modify its approach towards its mission. Using wrong approach at a wrong era cannot but lead to dismal results, even leading to bankruptcy and disappearance of the organization. Some of the thoughts expressed above are based on my first hand experience. I have seen how the Victorian/colonial model is easily and comfortably accepted in the East and compared to what I see today in the USA. The entrepreneurial vs organizational/military hierarchical model, I have seen in action. The former is able to act quickly and efficiently and creatively and get results with minimal resources. The latter is capable of a very large and massive effort or a where a large capital investment is needed. The future of the organizations may ultimately depend on how well they adapt to the changing conditions. On the other hand, a collection of individuals networking towards a common ideal can achieve results in spite of or ignoring organizations. It would be interesting to revisit this subject, say 10 years from now to see what all has happened in the meanwhile. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 23:09:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical History <-------------> Eldon B Tucker wrote: The question of "esoteric succession" is not really a divisive issue -- as I see it -- since I expect the Masters work through whoever works for the cause, and not because of someone's rank, position, or claims to esoteric ties. This being so, it's not important to fight others to win universal acceptance of someone's particular claim "to be the one and only, real, genuine thing," if there was such a thing. Hopefully in the future, the Point Loma and Pasadena Theosophists can work side-by-side for furthering the spiritual work and promoting the esoteric philosophy. This situation is a case where those in the Adyar T.S. could learn from history -- the Point Loma history -- seeing the problems and dynamics involved when groups are organization along the teacher/teaching model, as opposed to the study-hall/read-your-own-book model, or one of many other types of models. The important thing that the Point Loma Theosophists learned -- and members of any group can learn -- is that any one group isn't "the only show in town," and that the work goes on, if you're sincere in heart and dedicated, regardless of if the leadership of a particular theosophical group appreciate you or not. +++++++++++++++++++++ Your information and observations are very helpful to understand some of the history as well being very timely. The intersection of the teacher/student model with that of the democratic model, the former forming the part of the secret side of action, coupled with the who is the true successor teacher seems to have caused some of the problems with theosophical' organizations. Also certain additional factors occur to me. We have the entrepreneurial type vs the organizational/military hierarchical type of individuals.The former type will never be comfortable with the latter type of organization and vice versa. In addition, the prevailing world-wide condition compared to that of the Victorian/colonial era. Today there is demand for more freedom and openness and a democratic approach and less of appeal for the Victorian/colonial type hierarchical (need to know secrecy) approach. Added is the modern electronic and communication technology that is changing the landscape. It appears that any organization which wants to succeed in its mission, has to keep up with the changing times and modify its approach towards its mission. Using wrong approach at a wrong era cannot but lead to dismal results, even leading to bankruptcy and disappearance of the organization. Some of the thoughts expressed above are based on my first hand experience. I have seen how the Victorian/colonial model is easily and comfortably accepted in the East and compared to what I see today in the USA. The entrepreneurial vs organizational/military hierarchical model, I have seen in action. The former is able to act quickly and efficiently and creatively and get results with minimal resources. The latter is capable of a very large and massive effort or a where a large capital investment is needed. The future of the organizations may ultimately depend on how well they adapt to the changing conditions. On the other hand, a collection of individuals networking towards a common ideal can achieve results in spite of or ignoring organizations. It would be interesting to revisit this subject, say 10 years from now to see what all has happened in the meanwhile. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:32:25 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: looking for the good in others Kym: [rebuking at Dallas:] >Dallas, you are the ultimate phoney. It is CLEAR that the only people you >"respect" or even believe deserve "respect" are those that ONLY AGREE WITH >YOU. This seems like a personal attack, a form of lashing out in anger, rather than a kind-hearted pointing out of someone's shortcomings in a way that can lead to constructive results. It's customary to speak of shortcomings in the form of "our problems", giving both personal examples as well as pointing out examples of the other's faults. Is it correct to assume that Dallas doesn't have your respect because he consistently disagrees with you? >If anyone dare question, examine, or disagree with your Saintly and >oh-so-Holy HPB and elusive Masters, your mind goes into lock-down. There's a difference between questioning, examining, and disagreeing with someone, and with mocking, flippantly dismissing, and expressing continual dislike of someone. We're in mixed company. Some hold Blavatsky and her works in high regard, and feel a genuine sense of reverence for what she's done. Others don't like her ideas and think "baloney!" when they hear her quoted. Even if you may not like Blavatsky's ideas, you can still show that you're aware of the respect and esteem than many hold for her. >Your ability to be more machine than human is mind-boggling. It is evident >by your response - or actually lack of personal response - to Paul that >what he had to say meant nothing to you. Another thing comes into play here. It's something that I've seen a bit of first hand in a seminar put on by Jerry Hejka-Ekins. The idea is fairly simply and obvious, but it's easy for any of us to forget it at times. The idea is that different people have different psychological types, and if you don't understand the types and where other people are coming from, you'll continually misread and unfairly judge them. Dallas may fit in the category of the "rational type," and perhaps you're another type, and cannot understand his way of seeing things? >I have seen you respond to people who express frustration and a wish >to communicate in your cold-hearted and dismissive way over and over >and over. A "rational" type personality may seem "cold hearted" to a feeling type, but that comes from a basic misreading of people of a different temperament. >You are a master at driving people >AWAY from the lists and Theosophy itself; making people fight feelings of >being attacked, ashamed, unwelcome, and unwanted. Any approach that someone takes may appeal to certain temperaments and be repelling to others. That doesn't make it wrong. The challenge is for *all of us* to develop greater appreciation of each other's natures and allow for the peaceful coexistence of other ways of doing things -- without feeling driven away, nor hating anyone or anything, etc. >You have been told how much you have hurt people repeatedly, by others >besides me; yet you remain completely unmoved. Any writing may seem brilliant or inspiring to some and monstrous to others. We see it all the time on the theosophical mailing lists. Take, for example, the discussion of the history of the theosophical movement, including the life and influence of C. W. Leadbeater, we get mixed reactions. If you want to be helpful to Dallas, you need to suggest things he can do to improve his writing style, and say them in the mode of "this is how your writing affects me, as it is currently done, and if you were to change it in that way, you'd really have a more positive influence." If you think that there is room for improvement in Dallas' writing style, is there something useful you can say about it? As to your writing style, I suspect you have room for improvement too. Do you think you've perfected the art of lucid communication, or would you likewise welcome feedback from him or others as to how you might improve too? >I believe, in all honesty and seriousness, that it was minds such as yours >that were present and active in the times of the Inquisition and Crusades. I see a lot of character faults around, in various degrees, in all of us. I think it's better, though, to enjoy the good in others rather than judge, brand, and shame people for their faults. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:59:06 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Theosophists vs. average human beings Frank wrote: >We need urgent people like Dallas which are fighting the increasing tidal >wave of illusion, blind belief and laziness and who are fighting on HPB's >side. There are enough on the dark (avidya) side. Keep in mind that it much >easier to blacken HPB or to criticize Theosophy with any fantastic slander >than to justify it with primarily sources. This is done in five minutes. >Often enough one has to read, reread and search for a single sentence many >hours. Dallas, hold on and fight for the TRUTH - whether someone likes it to >hear of not. We are working not for today. The "tidal wave" is NOT "increasing," Frank. Have more faith, love and hope for humanity. More and more people - not less and less - are beginning to understand the broader picture. And, believe it or not, Frank, those who disagree with HPB, you, or Dallas may not be merely wallowing in "illusion," "laziness," or "blind belief." Again, Dallas and now you, Frank, do NOT REALLY KNOW what TRUTH is (no human does) - but Dallas and you have made clear that there is no other "truth" or "viewpoint" that is valid. And, contrary to your statement: Yes, Frank, we ARE WORKING FOR TODAY! Today matters - for today people are suffering, lost, and sad. Every day matters and every person matters. Those who look and work ONLY for some way-off day in the future are ignoring and perhaps misunderstanding what Life is - today matters, for today, someone may hear "God" or someone may find Love or someone may learn the meaning of Compassion or someone may need comfort or someone may need help. Frank, Life is not about just 'me, me, me and my own spiritual future.' Many Theosophists seem to accept way too easily the inherent selfishness of viewing TRUTH as a means for their OWN spiritual reward. If you and Dallas choose to love books and HPB more than this planet and the living entities in it, so be it. But don't think for one second that all of us are just going to shut up and move aside - for me personally, the belief system of you and Dallas is adding to, not lessening, the pain in this world. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:12:11 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 09, 1998 >>"Secret DOCTORING!" That is priceless! I never thought of it that way - of >>course, I will use that phrase (safely off list) without EVER letting anyone >>know that a mind more brilliant, insightful, wittier, and humorous than my own >>actually originated it. . .. >> >>Kym > >That's the spirit! All the best lines are stolen from somewhere! > >Love, > >Alan :0) Don't break the law. The Master of Copyright. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:08:47 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 09, 1998 >Dallas wrote: > >> No I certainly do not consider myself a "saint," but only one who >> aspires (perhaps in the eternal hereafter - quite undefinable) to >> become a better human being. > >1) I do not believe you.2) Recommending books (as is your fave rave solution and >answer to most everything) is not where one will find true understanding, >compassion, and wisdom. > >Kym Kym, as you recommended yourself that one must have more trust and faith and hope for mankind you should believe Dallas more. Or is Dallas not human? If not, then WHAT is he??? Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:45:40 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theosophists vs. average human beings >Kym wrote: > >The "tidal wave" is NOT "increasing," Frank. I have made other experiences. Come to Berlin and I show you hundreds of groups which are channeling HPB, the Masters, space ship Commanders, are flying in the astral world, hypnotize others, selling faked photos of HPB and the Masters, working with Masters, some of them naturally very higher than the teachers of HPB, eating only Prana, initiations in a weekend workshop etc., etc. Does all this not exist in the area you come from, Kym? >Have more faith, love and hope for humanity. Thank you for the motivation. Does my faith, love and hope for humanity increase when I would also start a new age career? Have I not enough of positive thinking? >More and more people - not less and less - are >beginning to understand the broader picture. That's really good news. I feared a little bit we are entering more and more the kali yuga. >And, believe it or not, >Frank, those who disagree with HPB, you, or Dallas may not be merely >wallowing in "illusion," "laziness," or "blind belief." Again good news. Or is the illusion of illusion just an illusion? When I understand you in the right way than one can disagree or misunderstand HPB or misrepresent her teachings and should not fear to on teh wrong way. That's indicates that something with HPB must be wrong? What is it? >Again, Dallas and now you, Frank, do NOT REALLY KNOW what TRUTH is (no >human does) - but Dallas and you have made clear that there is no other >"truth" or "viewpoint" that is valid. Mmmmhhh. When no one knows what truth is then it is easy for me to start a New Age career. I can lie all the time and assert it has it basic on HPB. That's interesting. When Dallas then protests against my claims I blame him just with fundamentalism or that he dosn't know what truth is. Folks, all should follow me!!! I am the Galactic Commander and the chief of the Maha Maha. The Master St. Germain is my pupil. That is the truth. For all who will be initiated I make an offer: Send only $30 to me and you will get my first instruction how to become a pupil of the Great White Siblinghood. The Logos yesterday came into my flat in His astral body and had told me privatly that HPB regretted her wrong teachings about reincarnation and karma. It is a trick from the dark side. You must only follow my instructions (for a low price, only covering my costs) and you will get more love and understanding. All will be good. Don't hesitate. >And, contrary to your statement: Yes, Frank, we ARE WORKING FOR TODAY! >Today matters - for today people are suffering, lost, and sad. Every day >matters and every person matters. Those who look and work ONLY for some >way-off day in the future are ignoring and perhaps misunderstanding what >Life is - today matters, for today, someone may hear "God" or someone may >find Love or someone may learn the meaning of Compassion or someone may >need comfort or someone may need help. Frank, Life is not about just 'me, >me, me and my own spiritual future.' Many Theosophists seem to accept way >too easily the inherent selfishness of viewing TRUTH as a means for their >OWN spiritual reward. But the aims of the TS are others. Reread f.e. the Maha Chohan letter and you will see that the Great Ones are not working for the benefit of an individual and that the TS is not working in first line against false mundane matters. Theosophy deals rather with the cause than with the results, don't? >If you and Dallas choose to love books and HPB more than this planet and >the living entities in it, so be it. But don't think for one second that >all of us are just going to shut up and move aside - for me personally, the >belief system of you and Dallas is adding to, not lessening, the pain in >this world. > >Kym That is your opinion. Theosophy is working against superstition, lack of discrimination, avidya, blind belief. The belief system you obviously prefer has had its chance for the last 2,000 years. The results are known: Selfishness, blind belief, hypocrizy, materialism, dogmatism. It is sad that your belief system has no space for critisism. For me Dallas has the right to critize, the more he does it in a fair and unpersonelly way. He explains only the working of the occult laws. And judging from that what he contributes in the net I know for sure that he has understood much of what HPB teached because he comes to the same conclusions than me in my own study. Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:47:40 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: looking for the good in others In a message dated 11/10/98 12:33:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, eldon@theosophy.com writes: << I see a lot of character faults around, in various degrees, in all of us. I think it's better, though, to enjoy the good in others rather than judge, brand, and shame people for their faults. >> This was a good post, Eldon. One on which we can all agree. Best Wishes, Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:13:39 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: test: attachments?? 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Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:07:04 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 09, 1998 Eldon wrote: >In the context of this organizational structure, >when he died, and no one emerged who was immediately >recognized as a bona fide successor, the Cabinet, >in charge of the T.S., ran it for three years. It >was headed by Iverson L. Harris. > >When the three years were up, the Cabinet appointed >Arthur L. Conger as the new President, as an >administrative head of the T.S. To the dismay of >many senior E.S. members, he assumed esoteric control >>of the society too, and soon had most of the lodges >shut down, and the E.S. leaders locked out of their >own offices. Dear Eldon, yes the Point Loma model was hierarchical, it was so since HPB's time when she established her European Section and Esoteric Section with her as President independent from Olcott in Adyar. But consider that GdeP himself altered this model. His testimony was reprinted in the ECLECTIC. It was his wish that the Cabinet of twelve should elect a new Leader by simply major vote. That was the matter with the TS. You have mentioned the esoteric successorship of the O.H. , the envoy position. From HPB on to Judge to KT and down to GdeP all O.H. were recognized by special arrangements from the pupils who have grasped more or less of the occult laws by own experiences. Long and Conger changed this method when Conger took E.S. chair with brutal force and not following the methods that were used by HPB, KT, Judge and GdeP. That is important, don't. For me we have the similar situation today with the seven years old Panchen Lama, who was recognized and accepted by the present Dalai Lama. The Chinese Secret Service kidnapped him and the Communist party presented an innocent little boy of a party member as the "real" (Chinese) Panchen Lama. All who holds to the occult method have been and are still persecuted. The same was with Long and Conger who assumed headship over the E.S. and cancelled Iverson Harris, Elsie Benjamin, Emmett Small, Helen Todd and nearly all old members who were true followers since decades under Judge, KT and GdeP. One must come to the conclusion that the Pasadena TS is a new model and not a continuation of the old TS. Perhaps that is the reason why Long and the present leader are much engaged to shorten and alter the texts of GdeP. We need a movement that requires unaltered, verbatim texts of GdeP. Every Theosophist of today should be intelligent enough to come to his own conclusion with genuine texts as it is so self-evident with the texts of HPB. The book of Charles Ryan (HPB and the Theosophical Movement) of Point Loma Publication has an appendix which deals with the Long/Conger affair. Frank > From ???@??? 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Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:39:21 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Test - Binary Attachment M K Ramadoss writes >The attached file is the compressed program arce.com. Compression was done >using pkzip. This test is to see if Binary attachments will work with Lyris. >mkr >[ A MIME application / zip part was included here. ] > It worked on my system. Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:34:57 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: test: attachments?? John E Mead writes >test to see how lyris handles attachments. >[ A MIME application / octet-stream part was included here. ] > On my system it called up MS WORD and showed me colours and windings, ending in Green Olde Englisshe Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 20:21:26 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Test - Binary Attachment Thanks. Was just testing lyris. ...doss At 01:39 AM 11/11/1998 +0000, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss writes >>The attached file is the compressed program arce.com. Compression was done >>using pkzip. This test is to see if Binary attachments will work with Lyris. >>mkr >>[ A MIME application / zip part was included here. ] >> >It worked on my system. > >Alan > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:37:52 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 09, 1998 In a message dated 11/10/98 12:01:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, theos- l@list.vnet.net writes: << This last weekend I attended "Fortfest", a seminar/conference devoted to anomalies. It took place in Bethesda, Maryland and was sponsored by the Fortean Society. >> Curious - what does the Fortean Society do/believe in? Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:39:45 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 09, 1998 In a message dated 11/10/98 12:01:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, theos- l@list.vnet.net writes: << and SATTVA (balance). When the Soul (the Human Monad, Anthropos) learns to balance these two forces, it achieves liberation. >> So, Boddhisattva has to do with some type of balance? What is the definition of Boddhisattva? (or is that an unanswerable koan??) Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:59:30 -0700 From: Rilke Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 08, 1998 Dallas wrote: > No I certainly do not consider myself a "saint," but only one who > aspires (perhaps in the eternal hereafter - quite undefinable) to > become a better human being. 1) I do not believe you.2) Recommending books (as is your fave rave solution and answer to most everything) is not where one will find true understanding, compassion, and wisdom. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:48:19 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 08, 1998 >"It must be understood clearly, however, that clairvoyant research is by no >means the only or even the most important method of acquiring knowledge; >neither is the development of this power a necessity for either spiritual >progress or the study of occultism. > >A surer method exists, and a far more valuable faculty is available for man. > >"This faculty is spiritual intuition" > Doss, while you may have read this in a book by Hodson, it comes from HPB who called it buddhi-manas. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:09:28 -0700 From: Rilke Subject: Re: theos-l digest: Thou shalt not what? Alan wrote: > That told him! Naturally such minds were present and active in the > periods you mentions, for it says so in THE SECRET DOCTORING. "Secret DOCTORING!" That is priceless! I never thought of it that way - of course, I will use that phrase (safely off list) without EVER letting anyone know that a mind more brilliant, insightful, wittier, and humorous than my own actually originated it. . .. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:06:50 +0100 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 07, 1998 Kym wrote about Dallas: [SNIP] > You are a master at driving people AWAY from the lists and Theosophy >itself; making people fight feelings of >being attacked, ashamed, unwelcome, and unwanted. You have been told how >much you have hurt people repeatedly, by others besides me; yet you remain >completely unmoved. > >I believe, in all honesty and seriousness, that it was minds such as yours >that were present and active in the times of the Inquisition and Crusades. > Kym [SNIP] I am writing from Germany and do not know whether Dallas, nor Paul, nor Kym nor any other in this lists personally. But Kym, I really grasp your commentary. I take just the opposite view. As far as I can see most if not all statements of Dallas are based on genuine Theosophy, whereas many other subscribers prefer to talk like a blind about colors, having only assumptions and misconceptions, unaware of primarily sources. I am assume that many subscribers are in to read Dallas most good comments. For what you are really attacking Dallas? I have never seen that he has hurt anyone, excerpt perhaps those who will be hurt. I have had my own experiences with Paul (and others). First Paul provokes with fictional slanders and when he gets historical facts he don't like he becomes angry, attacking people that he was attacked. That is never a fair way, it is more hypocrisy. I think the most problem is that Dallas is writing with a more occult background, whereas Paul and some others are writing with a more mundane background. We need urgent people like Dallas which are fighting the increasing tidal wave of illusion, blind belief and laziness and who are fighting on HPB's side. There are enough on the dark (avidya) side. Keep in mind that it much easier to blacken HPB or to criticize Theosophy with any fantastic slander than to justify it with primarily sources. This is done in five minutes. Often enough one has to read, reread and search for a single sentence many hours. Dallas, hold on and fight for the TRUTH - whether someone likes it to hear of not. We are working not for today. Unity and co-operation and respect does not mean that all individuals must have the same view. We are united by the same spiritual basic. Frank > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 17:30:29 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 08, 1998 At 03:48 PM 11/9/1998 -0500, you wrote: >>"It must be understood clearly, however, that clairvoyant research is by no >>means the only or even the most important method of acquiring knowledge; >>neither is the development of this power a necessity for either spiritual >>progress or the study of occultism. >> >>A surer method exists, and a far more valuable faculty is available for >man. >> >>"This faculty is spiritual intuition" >> > >Doss, while you may have read this in a book by Hodson, >it comes from HPB who called it buddhi-manas. > >Jerry S. Hi, Jerry: Do you have HPB reference handy? I am very eager to see it. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:53:45 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: theos-l digest: Thou shalt not what? Rilke writes >"Secret DOCTORING!" That is priceless! I never thought of it that way - of >course, I will use that phrase (safely off list) without EVER letting anyone >know that a mind more brilliant, insightful, wittier, and humorous than my own >actually originated it. . .. > >Kym That's the spirit! All the best lines are stolen from somewhere! Love, Alan :0) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:28:55 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: Geoffrey Hodson's Predictions In a message dated 11/8/98 10:07:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, ramadoss@eden.com writes: << I thought it might interest some. Has anyone seen any other material from "theosophical" authors? >> I think there is a Theosophy and Science group but I don't belong to it. This last weekend I attended "Fortfest", a seminar/conference devoted to anomalies. It took place in Bethesda, Maryland and was sponsored by the Fortean Society. One of the lecturers mentioned the clairvoyant work on done on subtle matter by Annie Besant and CWL (OCCULT CHEMISTRY) much of which was verified later by Geoffrey Hodson in a separate study. This was incorporated in a book called THE EXTRASENSORY PERCEPTION OF QUARKS by Stephen Phillips. Also the concept of aether, once accepted and then discarded by physicists, is now making a comeback. There are some interesting websites devoted to it which are: Aether Theories - Collation of Scientific The... http://magna.com.au/~prfbrown/aether.html On the History of Aether http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/ufo_story/aether_intro.shtml Aethro-Kinematics http://www.westworld.com/~srado/indexX.shtml Holland's Aether Discussion http://home.istar.ca/~sholland/aether.shtml Also there is an excellent video called FREE ENERGY, THE RACE TO ZERO POINT produced by Lightworks. Best Wishes, Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:26:21 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 07, 1998 In a message dated 11/9/98 6:11:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, ringding@csi.com writes: Dear Frank, I appreciate your insights. Here are some quotes from Franz Hartmann in support of some your statements. << Dallas, hold on and fight for the TRUTH - whether someone likes it to hear or not. We are working not for today. >> "The building of the Temple of Solomon goes on unceasingly." Magic Black & White, p. 121 << Unity and cooperation and respect does not mean that all individuals must have the same view. We are united by the same spiritual basis. >> "Light is only one. A number of lights in a room are as one light composed of that number. If an orchestra is played in a room, each instrument produces a sound, the sound of each fills the whole room and is heard according to its intensity...Sound is one, and Light is one, and Spirit is one, only their manifestations differ in quality and strength." Magic Black & White, p. 221 In reference to Steiner, I don't agree with his Christology but I do find value in his concept of Luciferic and Ahrimanic forces with Man (Manas or perhaps Buddhi-Manas), the Anthropos as the balancing equilibrium between the two. Lucifer is restless energy leading to spiritual illusion and Ahriman symbolizes the dead hand of materiality. What Steiner is discussing here are the three GUNAS, which are RAJAS (restless activity in the sense of Sturm und Drang), TAMAS (inertia) and SATTVA (balance). When the Soul (the Human Monad, Anthropos) learns to balance these two forces, it achieves liberation. Best Wishes, Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 20:01:23 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical History Augoeides: [writing to Frank] >I was aware of the Point Loma Group. I was a long- >time subscriber to Emmett Small's ECLECTIC >THEOSOPHIST newsletter and was sorry to see it >cease publication. He wrote me one time and told me >he was barred from entering the Pasadena TS >estate even though his sister was married to >the Head of the American Section. I've heard a few things myself, having been on the Point Loma Publications Board from the mid-1970's until the early 1990's. I've also been to the T.S. Pasadena a few times, and am a member of it, the ULT, and the Adyar T.S. I was at a party for Emmett's 80th birthday (a while back, considering he's in his mid 90's) and his sister and several others had come down from Pasadena to attend. In 1942, G. de Purucker died, and the Point Loma T.S. did not have an immediate replacement for him as spiritual/administrative head. The organizational model was hierarchical, with Purucker formerly President for life and head of the E.S., representative of the Masters in an succession that ran from Blavatsky to Judge to Tingley to him. (This is what was generally believed by the membership.) In the context of this organizational structure, when he died, and no one emerged who was immediately recognized as a bona fide successor, the Cabinet, in charge of the T.S., ran it for three years. It was headed by Iverson L. Harris. When the three years were up, the Cabinet appointed Arthur L. Conger as the new President, as an administrative head of the T.S. To the dismay of many senior E.S. members, he assumed esoteric control of the society too, and soon had most of the lodges shut down, and the E.S. leaders locked out of their own offices. Many members quit at this time, and a few, like Boris de Zirkoff, were expelled. Conger lived until 1951, and was succeeded by James A. Long. There was some dissension over his succession too, and there was at least one rival group that split off in Holland. When Long died, he was succeeded by Grace F. Knoche, who currently heads the Pasadena T.S. The Pasadena T.S. was fairly large and successful, but fractured and lost many of its members during the Conger and Long successions. There were a large number of independent students and study groups, that ended up feeling burned by the idea of authoritative theosophical groups, and continued to exist independently to this day, connected by letters, personal visits, and other forms of networking. THE ECLECTIC THEOSOPHIST, edited by W. Emmett Small, was one such means of networking. At this point, the question of "who said what to whom" in the 1940's and 1950's is fast becoming a moot point, since there are fewer and fewer people with bad blood towards each other, fewer people feeling burned and wronged -- and also time has had its healing effect to help people better get along together. The question of "esoteric succession" is not really a divisive issue -- as I see it -- since I expect the Masters work through whoever works for the cause, and not because of someone's rank, position, or claims to esoteric ties. This being so, it's not important to fight others to win universal acceptance of someone's particular claim "to be the one and only, real, genuine thing," if there was such a thing. Hopefully in the future, the Point Loma and Pasadena Theosophists can work side-by-side for furthering the spiritual work and promoting the esoteric philosophy. This situation is a case where those in the Adyar T.S. could learn from history -- the Point Loma history -- seeing the problems and dynamics involved when groups are organization along the teacher/teaching model, as opposed to the study-hall/read-your-own-book model, or one of many other types of models. The important thing that the Point Loma Theosophists learned -- and members of any group can learn -- is that any one group isn't "the only show in town," and that the work goes on, if you're sincere in heart and dedicated, regardless of if the leadership of a particular theosophical group appreciate you or not. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 03:01:35 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 07, 1998 In a message dated 11/8/98 12:00:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, Frank writes: << Co-operation depends not on the similarity of opinions but on the common search for the truth. And friendly fights are a good way to it. >> That's wonderful, Frank! I agree totally. That is the beauty of theosophy, if only we all could see it. And that is the beauty of any system of people cooperating - such as democracy/freedom of speech. Christine (Washington, DC - never been to Berlin) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 08:07:59 -0800 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 07, 1998 Nov 8th 1998 Dear Kym: I do really try to be sincere, honest, and completely open - I have no ulterior motives. You, I, everyone, are quite free to say and do whatever we decide has value. No I certainly do not consider myself a "saint," but only one who aspires (perhaps in the eternal hereafter - quite undefinable) to become a better human being. I think we all have at core - in our "heart of hearts" something that is common - that is if Life, energy, force, power and purpose exist uniformly throughout the Kosmos (just like the light of the Sun and all the Stars pervades all space regardless of either time or distance). No one "owns" this (or any other) universal quality, nor do they pretend to concentrate that which everyone has in equal quantity and is able to express in whatever way they choose. All that I think and say is therefore an expression of that freedom which belongs to all of us. I may (unfortunately) use words that are disturbing - for which I am indeed regretful. But, your freedom and my own are our community - something we cannot help sharing with everyone else - perhaps they now seem to represent different view-points, but any difference is joined to its "opposite" by the bridge of co-existence. And that is indeed a deep puzzle. There is a very curious book around for the last 100 years or so named LIGHT ON THE PATH - written by Mabel Collins. It speaks of differences such as you write of and also makes some puzzling statements. Have you ever seen it ? Best wishes to you, Dallas >Date: Saturday, November 07, 1998 9:00 PM >From: Theosophy Study List digest [mailto:theos-l@list.vnet.net] >Subject: theos-l digest: November 07, 1998 Theosophy Study List Digest for Saturday, November 07, 1998. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:00:02 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Only Dallas worshippers need apply Dallas wrote: >It is the unifying aspects of Theosophy that are of importance, >regardless of our personal respect for those who have been >instrumental in giving us access to Theosophy. Respect for all >those who have worked constructively ought always to be given in >my esteem. Dallas, you are the ultimate phoney. It is CLEAR that the only people you "respect" or even believe deserve "respect" are those that ONLY AGREE WITH YOU. If anyone dare question, examine, or disagree with your Saintly and oh-so-Holy HPB and elusive Masters, your mind goes into lock-down. Your ability to be more machine than human is mind-boggling. It is evident by your response - or actually lack of personal response - to Paul that what he had to say meant nothing to you. I have seen you respond to people who express frustration and a wish to communicate in your cold-hearted and dismissive way over and over and over. You are a master at driving people AWAY from the lists and Theosophy itself; making people fight feelings of being attacked, ashamed, unwelcome, and unwanted. You have been told how much you have hurt people repeatedly, by others besides me; yet you remain completely unmoved. I believe, in all honesty and seriousness, that it was minds such as yours that were present and active in the times of the Inquisition and Crusades. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 00:34:14 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Only Dallas worshippers need apply kymsmith@micron.net writes >I believe, in all honesty and seriousness, that it was minds such as yours >that were present and active in the times of the Inquisition and Crusades. > >Kym That told him! Naturally such minds were present and active in the periods you mentions, for it says so in THE SECRET DOCTORING. Fondly, Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 20:44:50 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Geoffrey Hodson's Predictions Last night I had a chance to read a book by Hodson titled "Science of Seership" which was published some time before 1930. I could not find the publishing date. This date is important. It was published at a time when CWL was alive. It appears that when CWL was alive, every occult finding and information and research by anyone else has to be approved by CWL before it could be supported by the leaders of TS, Adyar. This book was published by Rider & Co., London, no arm of Theosophical Society or Publishing House. In it he describes a case of cancer as he saw it clairvoyantly. What is of interest to me was he explained how radiation works to kill the cancerous cells and also discusses how implantation of radiation is the way to go. Today, we see implantation of radio active isotopes for prostate cancer. And Hodson was right in what he wrote about radiation and implantation. I thought it might interest some. Has anyone seen any other material from "theosophical" authors? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:14:08 -0500 (EST) From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Spiritual Intuition vs Clairvoyance vs Occultism Much discussion has gone on for years on the subject of occultism and the Great Mysteries. Many are interested in Mysteries and who is not interested in future Adeptship? On the one hand, we have the step by step method. Joining a secret training school such as the Esoteric School and get the benefit of the training. It has its price to pay. For example during the time of Annie Besant (who claimed that almost all members of the General Council are members of the Esoteric School), during the Mahatma Gandhi's non-cooperation movement, it is reported that she had a rule that no one could join the movement and yet stay in the School. On the other hand, you have the famous statement of Krishnaji, who said "Truth is a Pathless Land" and you cannot come to it by any path. In the book "The Science of Seership" by Geoffrey Hodson, a well known member of TS and clairvoyant, published in 1930 or a couple of years earlier by Rider & Co., I saw the very interesting statement. "It must be understood clearly, however, that clairvoyant research is by no means the only or even the most important method of acquiring knowledge; neither is the development of this power a necessity for either spiritual progress or the study of occultism. A surer method exists, and a far more valuable faculty is available for man. "This faculty is spiritual intuition" He goes on to say that we see evidence of this showing up in people. It looks like the spiritual intuition is a far more effective and may be the technique for the coming millennium. This does not appear to need any organization, no leaders, no followers, no control, no censorship, no intermediary, no training, and you are your own teacher and student and does seem to be same as "Man/Woman Know Theyself". mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:00:02 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Only Dallas worshippers need apply Dallas wrote: >It is the unifying aspects of Theosophy that are of importance, >regardless of our personal respect for those who have been >instrumental in giving us access to Theosophy. Respect for all >those who have worked constructively ought always to be given in >my esteem. Dallas, you are the ultimate phoney. It is CLEAR that the only people you "respect" or even believe deserve "respect" are those that ONLY AGREE WITH YOU. If anyone dare question, examine, or disagree with your Saintly and oh-so-Holy HPB and elusive Masters, your mind goes into lock-down. Your ability to be more machine than human is mind-boggling. It is evident by your response - or actually lack of personal response - to Paul that what he had to say meant nothing to you. I have seen you respond to people who express frustration and a wish to communicate in your cold-hearted and dismissive way over and over and over. You are a master at driving people AWAY from the lists and Theosophy itself; making people fight feelings of being attacked, ashamed, unwelcome, and unwanted. You have been told how much you have hurt people repeatedly, by others besides me; yet you remain completely unmoved. I believe, in all honesty and seriousness, that it was minds such as yours that were present and active in the times of the Inquisition and Crusades. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:20:28 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Theosophical History = and our future Nov 7th 1998 Dear Frank: Your comments and the narration of your experiences show how much "history" can be twisted and also how the average person can be to submit to conditions that are unfavorable. And I might add that the formation in 1909 of the ULT was the result of discussions among several students of Theosophy who felt that the atmosphere of a "Society" presented too restrictive an environment, by saddling members with by-laws and officers, that had nothing to do with the study and practice of Theosophy. Theosophy is free of any organism. It is statement of "Facts in Nature," and as "history" it offers a statement of the development of their study and practice down the ages. Theosophy, from one point of view, is a statement of the Laws operating though out Nature - from the most remote past up to our present and proceeding out into the foreseeable future.. For the benefit of those who would like to see what Mr. Judge had to say on the subject of the "attacks" made on him, the ULT has reprinted "TWO ANSWERS" by W. Q. Judge which cover the matter fully. These will be found to summarize the "Judge Case" and underline the principles involved. They also serve to let readers know what Judge had to say openly and publicly in those letters. It is probably necessary that students of Theosophy learn more about Mr. Judge. But instead of rehashing history that is past an gone, perhaps the constructive thing is to read what he has offered as one of HPB's most responsible assistants - entrusted as he was for the development and spread of Theosophy in America. It might be of general interest to see how Judge wrote about Theosophy. An introduction to his work can he had by looking up THEOSOPHY GENERALLY STATED [ published by Annie Besant in LUCIFER for December 1893. ULT - WQJ Articles I p. 1. ] Considering the universal applications of Theosophical doctrines he wrote an article published in PATH for October 1889: UNIVERSAL APPLICATIONS OF DOCTRINE. [WQJ Articles ULT I p. 11 ] In about 35 pages he covers the entire scope of Theosophy in EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY. This was originally one of the "Free Tracts" that the T S in America sent out by the thousands to prospective persons who might be interested in the philosophy. In the course of 10 years nearly 1,000,000 (a million) "Free Tracts" were mailed. [ Printed by the TPH, ULT, TS in A ] The work was done by persons who desired to help spread the benefits they had themselves received. The T S provided free the "tracts," the envelopes, and the stamps (if necessary). The recipients located in various parts of the country then decided to which addresses the tracts ought to be sent in and around their community. The T S supported several travelling lecturers who devoted their time to visiting many centers where interest in Theosophy showed itself and there, they delivered talks. And provided answers to those who might be interested in starting a Branch. In the magazine THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM there were printed summaries of such talks. At the ULT these have been gathered and reprinted in a small pamphlet under the title "SUBJECTS FOR DISCUSSION." These are quite valuable for those who want to review what Theosophy teaches on a subject, or in preparing a lecture. All these are available from THEOSOPHY COMPANY, 245 W. 33rd St., Los Angeles, 90007. Prices are about $ 2.00 each. I reprint for those who have indicated they are interested DECLARATION of the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS, "The policy of this Lodge is independent devotion to the cause of Theosophy, without professing attachment to any Theosophical organization. It is loyal to the great Founders of the Theosophical Movement, but does not concern itself with dissentions or differences of individual opinion. The work it has on hand and the end it keeps in view are too absorbing and too lofty to leave it the time or inclination to take part in side issues. That work and that end is the dissemination of the Fundamental Propositions of the Philosophy of Theosophy, and the exemplification in practice of those principles, through a truer realization of the SELF, a profounder convictions of Universal Brotherhood. It holds that the unassailable basis for union among Theosophists, wherever and however situated is "similarity of aim, purpose and teachings," and therefore has neither Constitution, By-Laws nor Officers, the sole bond between its Associates being that basis. And it aims to disseminate this idea among Theosophists in the furtherance of Unity. It regards as Theosophists all who are engaged in the true service of Humanity, without distinction race, creed, sex, condition or organization, and It welcomes to its Association all those who are in accord with its declared purposes and who desire to fit themselves, by study and otherwise, to be the better able to help and teach others. "The true Theosophist belongs to no cult or sect, yet belongs to each and all." In conclusion let me emphasize what HPB writes at the conclusion of the KEY TO THEOSOPHY In our hands individually and collectively lies that power which can project and sustain the Theosophical Movement into the future - into the 21st Century and beyond if we work for it and try to do our best on its behalf - remembering that it is for Humanity's sake that we labor, and when we all reincarnate together in the future, our efforts now, will have paved the way for some degree of benevolent change in society then. So Karma operates. With best wishes, Dallas >Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:13 PM >From: Frank Reitemeyer >Subject: Theos-World Re: Theosophical History == Mr. P. Johnson's opinions Dallas wrote: >Nov 5th 1998 > >Dear Frank: > >I was glad to read your posting on theos-talk in this matter. > >Most "histories" offer opinions. Opinions are individual. They >approach the area of fiction when the opinions of a writer, and >what he attempts to reconstruct as possible motives, are offered >as "facts." Unsuspecting readers who are rarely ready to >duplicate basic research into historical documents, and the >events and facts they reflect, are quite likely to escape their >attention. It is easier for the lazy (and most of us are in >various ways) to accept as "authoritative" the opinionated and >fictionalized history so offered. Thus traditions arise. > >In my youth I was educated in four countries, and therefore could >see at first hand the effect of partisan and politicized >histories when the same event was described. Documents are >safer. [SNIP] Dear Dallas, I was glad to help a little bit with my limited English to defend that Great One of whom HPB said in 1888: "My only friend" and from whom she as the only one required a pledge as "he gave it thirteen years to the same individual which is my Master". Reading such accusations as we discuss here based merely on arbitrary selections of the historical data misinterpreted in a pure exoterical brain-minded "scientific" way makes it once again clear to me that HPB's esoteric co-worker suffered much. And if you remind that and how he lived nevertheless the theosophical life, suffering in silence about the intrigues of people he trusted so much and remained friendly and had compassion with his enemies (Elsie Benjamin told once the whole story in our Lodge, her father was a direct witness of the sad affair, he told that Judge had great compassion with AB and did made the prediction that one day the whole truth will come to light and AB in turn will have to suffer the more for her "sins" because thousands will stand up against her) one came only to the conclusion that he was one, who has achieved. I have too my own experiences who "history" is written as I grew up in cold-war Berlin. There is no business with more lies than this. Each government lies. Each government "makes" its own history, whether it is called democratic, socialistic or national-socialistic. With the lazy masses you can do anything, because the most people do not really think. In my high school days some pupils thought that the Berlin wall was erected by the USA and from our teacher we learned that the Comecon was the only democratic system and the living standard in East Europe was very much higher than in the West. But from personnel knowledge on my relatives I knew that even in the GDR - ever described as the best developed socialistic country - the people haven't had the simplest things as needles, fruits etc., and waiting 20-30 years for "luxury" things like a phone or a plastic car... Or take for example the stories about WWII, most are rather political "facts" than hard *historical* facts. To discuss or inform about the Holocaust is verboten, because if you are interesting in this field and you are not an historian who is installed and controlled by the government you MUST be a Nazi. It's logically, because only Nazis are interested in those strange matters. There is one old saying: If you will know who really rules a country you have just to look to that was is verboten and you will know who rules. For me there are only to ways to escape if one can think for himself: 1. to become crazy, not recommended, or 2. to trust that only Theosophy has the power to enlighten mankind... Last but not least I would like to express that our study in theos. history must lead us not to the false conclusion that all Theosophists must have the same view on it and so create a dogma. We all must strengthen our efforts for a better information exchange and co-operation. The Internet gives us a good tool to make that real. Co-operation depends not on the similarity of opinions but on the common search for the truth. And friendly fights are a good way to it. Frank Frank -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:29:04 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: November 03, 1998 In a message dated 11/4/98 12:01:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kym writes: << Capitalism can hardly claim that equality is part of its goal; actually such a goal is considered rather wussy by many of capitalism's adherents. >> Although I would point out that a central tenet of capitalism is that one can advance by the fruits of one's efforts, regardless of station, class, race, or creed, so the equalizing is one of effort rather than automatically conferred. See, e.g., Horatio Alger and progeny (the "American Dream"). Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:52:58 -0500 (EST) From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Thought for the day Here is a quote I received from Inspire which send a quote is day. In these days when the structured knowledge is what is generally taught, here seems to be a definition of what Truth or reality is. True Theo-Sophia -- divine wisdom? "The eye doesn't reach it, language doesn't reach it, nor does thought reach it at all; truly we know not nor can we say how one should teach it; it is diferent from the known, it is beyond the unknown." Kena Upanishad From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:14:41 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Communication in Early Days of TS In my research, I found out a very interesting piece of historical information that I think might interest some. In the early days, the International General Council at Adyar wanted to keep in touch with the lodges so that there is a *two* way flow of information between the two. In order to achieve this, each branch designated a member as the contact point between the lodge and GC. The member kept the lodge informed of the decisions made in the GC and GC knew what was happening at the lodge level. So an efficient two way flow of information was facilitated. In the light of the above, it would be interesting to find out how the two way communication is maintained today in different countries. This will help everyone to understand and evaluate what is the current status and how improvements can be made. Any feedback is welcome. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:38:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: New Values Here is an excerpt from today's news. Theosophy may have an opportunity to contribute to improve human suffering around the world , much of which is avoidable and created by us. mkr CHARLOTTESVILLE, Virginia (CNN) -- Seven Nobel Peace Prize laureates began their two-day conference Thursday by calling on world leaders to move beyond the "greed, cynicism and hypocrisy" that have fueled violence and wars in the 20th century. Over the past decade, more than 4 million people have died worldwide in strife that has left one in 200 people refugees from their native countries, organizers of the conference at the University of Virginia said. "I don't think we can reach peace in the 21st century with the ethics of the 20th century," said Oscar Arias-Sanchez, former president of Costa Rica, who received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1987 for orchestrating a peace plan in Central America. ----------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:56:03 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theosophical History == Mr. P. Johnson's opinions >Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 8:00 >From: W. Dallas TenBroeck >Subject: RE: Theosophical History == Mr. P. Johnson's opinions Nov 5th 1998 Dear Frank: I was glad to read your posting on theos-talk in this matter. Most "histories" offer opinions. Opinions are individual. They approach the area of fiction when the opinions of a writer, and what he attempts to reconstruct as possible motives, are offered as "facts." Unsuspecting readers who are rarely ready to duplicate basic research into historical documents, and the events and facts they reflect, are quite likely to escape their attention. It is easier for the lazy (and most of us are in various ways) to accept as "authoritative" the opinionated and fictionalized history so offered. Thus traditions arise. In my youth I was educated in four countries, and therefore could see at first hand the effect of partisan and politicized histories when the same event was described. Documents are safer. There is a safe way out, and that is to insist on personally reading (in this case), the Theosophical Journals (and other contemporary writings) of the times involved, because there we can easily discern the sequence of events, and the relative letters and document are printed. In addition to a large spectrum of magazines, articles, books and pamphlets issued by early members of the Theosophical Society and its many Branches, there is: the magazine THEOSOPHIST (and the occasional SUPPLEMENT to the THEOSOPHIST) from 1879 on up to the present; PATH from 1886, LUCIFER from 1887; then, there are THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM, THE VAHAN, THE ENGLISH THEOSOPHIST, THE IRISH THEOSOPHIST, THE AUSTRALIAN THEOSOPHIST, THE PACIFIC THEOSOPHIST, LE LOTUS BLEU, LA REVUE THEOSOPHIQUE, THE WORD, THE CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST, THEOSOPHY, THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, THE NEW-ZEALAND THEOSOPHIST, THE THEOSOPHICAL DIGEST, THE INDIAN THEOSOPHIST, and many other journals. The period covered is seen to run from 1879 right up into the present. I can claim to have read most of these with fair attention. It is from those sources that I verified statements made in the books: THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875-1925, and its sequel for the period 1875-1950 If one desires to know what happened one has to go to the documents ( "primary sources" ) and compare those with whatever else is relevant. Mr. Paul Johnson has offered in this matter of Theosophical "history" the opinions of Bruce Campbell, Dr. A. E. Nethercot (whom I met in India when he was gathering material), Howard Murphet and last, Garrett. These appear to be "secondary" sources, although in some cases they quote portions of "primary sources." I have read those, as well as many other historical books, letters and articles that deal with "Theosophical events and history." (My personal familiarity proves nothing of course, but gives an ease to handle such matters as Mr. Johnson deals with from time to time in his own way.} Those books reflect the study, work, opinions and conclusions of the authors and compilers. Mr. Johnson seems to frame his opinions with great imagination pretty much as he pleases. At best they are at a "third source level." I am not the only one to question them and ask for proofs - which he has not advanced. It is well at this juncture to state that all I write is on my personal responsibility. The UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS is an Association of independent students of Theosophy. By definition it has no set "organization," nor any "spokesperson." It exists for only one purpose: "To spread broadcast before the world the teachings of H. P. Blavatsky and Wm. Q. Judge." I am one of its many associates. The associates of the ULT have as uniting bond, the DECLARATION of the ULT - and that is the sole document on which this association has functioned and spread its endeavors for the past 89 years. It presents the statements and propositions of Theosophy - as originally recorded. And that is repetitious perhaps, but it is not "dogma." Many are the interests and paths chosen by those who have been touched or influenced by those statements, but the common bond that unites us all, is a desire to learn what the TRUTH really is. We meet (on paper, or on a screen, or in person) from time to time to present our ideas -- in patient but diligent search of those areas of confirmation or of disagreement that build progress for all. No one is questioned or excluded in this endeavor. Each one works at his own pace and in his or her own unsupervised way. Being purely an "association," it has no by-laws, officers or regulations other than its DECLARATION of principles - hence no time is wasted on elections, politics or side-issues. It does not demand adherence to any set of objects or principles at all, but gives to each seeker their independence. Those who value its freedom and the research facilities it makes available use it and them. The basic concept is that at the core of each person is the REAL SPIRITUAL SOUL. It is eternal and never "dies." It has "eternity" within which to study and to learn - reaching always for that final TRUTH. Are we not therefore brothers and sisters ? And if so, should we not actively apply that in our lives and outlook ? The motto of the Theosophical society is "There is no Religion Higher than Truth." I see no conflict there. The "Three Objects" of the Theosophical Movement are common to all. That is if one considers that the "propositions" which Mme. Blavatsky advanced for our consideration on behalf of the "Masters of Wisdom" have inherent value and that the philosophical Science named "Theosophical" is coherent. Has anything better been found lately ? - or, in archaeological or literary digs ? Has our adventure into the ultra small aspects of matter, or into the regions of far outer-Space produced greater understanding of our purpose and being yet ? One thing is evident: The great Laws of Nature and the Universe persist. I believe it is fruitless to go into further details. When we get down to discussing documents we may have a basis for further discussion. There is no question in my mind that we ought to focus on that kind of study and work which makes for a real unity. The "organizations," or "associations" which we grace with our presence indicate, to my mind, the kind of inner attitude we have adopted. Let us look to the future. The past cannot be changed. Every one of our predecessors has done the world (and us, and others) a great deal of good. Focussing on what we may suspect are ulterior or divisive motives is useless. They each carry the Karma of their own motives. We do not. Yet, lessons may be learned, so that we in our present or future may not repeat errors that we think they made. In that we each hew our own "path" and our own "karma." Let us work constructively. One passing thought. I note that Mr. Johnson has said that there was an anti-Indian sentiment in America prevalent at the time of the formation of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN AMERICA in 1895. If one reads through the pages of PATH Magazine at that time and earlier, we find on the contrary that Mr. Judge and others, extended the hand of fellowship many times to Indians, and it is certainly of record that it was members of the American Section that came to the financial support of the Indian Section and the headquarters in Adyar when theft deprived them of the finances they so badly needed. And that is HISTORY too. One ought to also note that it was Mr. Judge who sponsored (around that time) the ORIENTAL DEPARTMENT and that many valuable translations of Indian, Hindu, Buddhist, and other ancient texts were made available to members of the T S as a result. Best wishes and thanks for your comments, Dallas PS November 6th I have read the several posts made on this subject by various contributors, and heartily endorse all constructive suggestions. The only value to reviewing the "past" is to avoid repeating those errors which so glaringly have served to divide. It is the unifying aspects of Theosophy that are of importance, regardless of our personal respect for those who have been instrumental in giving us access to Theosophy. Respect for all those who have worked constructively ought always to be given in my esteem. Dallas >Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 6:40 PM >From: Augoeides@aol.com >Subject: Theos-World Mahatma's letters in Judge's handwriting >From WILLIAM QUAN JUDGE: THEOSOPHICAL PIONEER by Sven Eek & Boris de Zirkoff "The accusations against Judge grew out of a number of documents which Walter R. Old, at one time a devoted worker in H.P.B.'s household in London, and Sidney V. Edge, Bought to Adyar in December, 1893, and which purported to prove that Judge had been misusing the names and handwritings of the Masters to bolster has own personal aims. Olcott found the documents incriminating." p.29 DALLAS: These accusations were made by Mrs. Besant and she could not prove them At the Judicial Committee meeting July 10th 1894 (11 members present). Judge stated he was willing to stand trial. He asked for certified copies of the "Charges" and to see the "documents' (alleged "letters from the Masters" that he was said to be responsible for. Neither of these things were advanced nor was he permitted to see them. The Judicial Committee stated that it was unwilling to continue the case in view of the fact that deciding on it was outside their purview. The fact was, that any decision they might make would force a "dogma" on the T S in regard to the validity of "Letters from the Masters,' was deemed by them to be beyond their power (see Pres. Olcott's address). "I believe that he [Judge] has sometimes received messages for other people in one or other of the ways I will mention in a moment, but not be direct writing by the Master nor by His direct precipitation; and that Mr. Judge has then believed himself to be justified in writing down in the script adopted by H.P.B. for communications from the Master, the message psychically received, and in giving it to the person for whom it is intended, leaving that person to wrongly assume that it was a direct precipitation or writing by the Master Himself - that is, that it was done through Mr. Judge, but done by the Master." p.31 (statement by Annie Besant read at the Third Session of the European Convention of the TS, July 12, 1994) DALLAS Mrs. Besant admitted that she herself did not question the contents but only felt doubtful about the "method" of writing and delivery. Incidentally for anyone who is interested I will be glad to send a transcript of the Masters' own words in regard to the phenomena of "letter precipitation." =========================================================== >From ANCIENT WISDOM REVIVED by Bruce F. Campbell "It was assumed by some that Mrs. Besant would assume leadership of the Esoteric Section, but Judge had other ideas. He suggested that the Council of the Esoteric Section be dissolved and that its powers be delegated jointly to Mrs. Besant and himself as joint "Outer Heads" of the action. At the same time, a series of messages appeared mysteriously that were to strengthen his hand. The first, which he reported he discovered in the cabinet in H.P.B.'s room, carried the impression of a seal with the letter 'M' and appeared to be a message from the Master Morya. Several days later, at a meeting held to decide the future of the Esoteric action, Mrs. Besant found among her papers a slip which read in red pencil: "Judge's Plan is Right.' The signature and 'M' seal was there as before. Judge's plan for joint Outer Heads was adopted unanimously." "Olcott recognized the seal as one he bought some years earlier. On a trip to Punjab in 1883, he ordered a craftsman to make a seal bearing 'M' as a present for the Master M. He gave it to Madame Blavatsky to forward, but she claimed it was a slightly inaccurate representation of His sign and put it among her own things. It disappeared in 1888." pp. 105-6 Dallas These are Campbell's own opinions and they do not tally with documents. The matter of the "seal" has been disposed of elsewhere and if necessary documents can be advanced to show where and how its was done. Judge did not have the Masters' seal. =========================================== >From HAMMER ON THE MOUNTAIN by Howard Murphet He [Olcott) asked Mrs. Besant to draw up the formal charges against the Vice-President. This she did in the form of a prosecutor's brief, presenting six charges with supporting evidence. In the main charges covered: deception in the use of the seal and in other matters; untruthfulness with regard to communications with the Masters; and sending out messages and orders as if sent and written by the Masters, such messages and orders being proved to be non-genuine by (a) error as in matter of fact (b) threat based on mistake, and (c) triviality. The probability of such messages being fraudulent was further enhanced by the facts that (i) they occurred only in letters from, or within the reach of, Mr. Judge, (ii) the knowledge displayed in them was limited to that possessed by Mr. Judge, and (iii) they were calculated to bring personal advantage to Mr. Judge, in some cases directly, and in all indirectly, because of his being the only person through whom such written messages were received." P.263 Dallas Read OLD DIARY LEAVES by Olcott - that is a primary source. The rest is the opinion of the writer. ============================================================= -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:56:17 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: Communication in Early Days of TS In a message dated 11/6/98 10:15:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, ramadoss@eden.com writes: << it would be interesting to find out how the two way communication is maintained today in different countries. >> By email, no doubt. The glories of the internet are boundless ! Best Wishes Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:28:15 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Communication in Early Days of TS I hope so!!! mkr At 10:56 AM 11/6/1998 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/6/98 10:15:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, >ramadoss@eden.com writes: > ><< it would be interesting to find out how the two > way communication is maintained today in different countries. >> > >By email, no doubt. The glories of the internet are >boundless ! > >Best Wishes >Augoeides > >--- >You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: RAMADOSS@EDEN.COM >List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-530Y@list.vnet.net > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:36:48 EST From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: New Values In a message dated 98-11-06 10:39:25 EST, you write: << CHARLOTTESVILLE, Virginia (CNN) -- Seven Nobel Peace Prize laureates began their two-day conference Thursday by calling on world leaders to move beyond the "greed, cynicism and hypocrisy" that have fueled violence and wars in the 20th century. >> Are they also going to ask the sun to stand still in the heavens? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:38:35 EST From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: have fun Actual Headlines >>> A Joke A Day <<< 1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies 2. Something Went Wrong In Jet Crash, Expert Says 3. Police Begin Campaign To Run Down Jaywalkers 4. Safety Experts Say School Bus Passengers Should Be Belted 5. Drunk Gets Nine Months In Violin Case 6. Survivor Of Siamese Twins Joins Parents 7. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms 8. Prostitutes Appeal To Pope 9. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over 10. British Left Waffles On Falkland Islands 11. Lung Cancer In Women Mushrooms 12. Eye Drops Off Shelf >>> A Joke A Day <<< 13. Teachers Strike Idle Kids 14. Clinton Wins On Budget, But More Lies Ahead 15. Enraged Cow Injures Farmer With Ax 16. Plane Too Close To Ground, Crash Probe Told 17. Miners Refuse To Work After Death 18. Juvenile Court To Try Shooting Defendant 19. Stolen Painting Found By Tree 20. Two Sisters Reunited After 18 Years In Checkout Counter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:44:08 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: You got the money, I got the time Augoeides@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/3/98 8:25:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com > writes: > > << a true communist system works quite well, when all the > participants are dedicated. The kibbutz system in Israel is a good > example. I had a friend who grew up in a monastery of an order of monks > who have had essentially a communist system for centuries; each monk > worked as hard as he could, and received whatever resources he needed. >> > > You fail to mention that these "communities" are completely > voluntary. This is quite different from collectivism imposed upon > an entire country by the State. If the particpants are dedicated, it can be assumed that their participation is voluntary. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:11:29 -0500 (EST) From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Secrecy In the famous 1900 letter to Annie Besant from Master K.H., he warned that unnecessary secrecy has killed many organizations. This was in the context of what was going on within the TS at a time when Besant was the Outer Head of the Esoteric Section. In the light of the above observation, the following excerpt from book by Moynihan is very interesting. May be the law of analogy applies and we can learn some lessons. MKR: Senator: 'culture of secrecy' impedes good government' 'Secrecy: The American Experience' by Daniel Patrick Moynihan Yale University Press, $22.50 Review by L.D. Meagher from CNN: "If the federal government had revealed all it knew about Soviet espionage activities in the United States during and after World War Two, there might have been no McCarthy era. If the U.S. intelligence community had heeded its own analysis of the Soviet economy in the aftermath of World War Two, there might have been no Cold War. Those are two of the stunning conclusions Daniel Patrick Moynihan draws from his study of the way America keeps its secrets". "He also makes a case that the culture of secrecy in the federal government has served as a major impediment to reasoned actions by generations of America's leaders and its citizens." "Moynihan's book, with an informative and insightful introduction by historian Richard Gid Powers, traces the roots of the "security state" to World War One. Its seeds were planted by President Woodrow Wilson, who wanted to protect military secrets from disclosure during wartime. By the time of World War Two, the government had developed an entire bureaucracy devoted to keeping secrets. During the Cold War, that bureaucracy mushroomed. By the time of the Iran-Contra scandal, Moynihan argues, it had become a virtual government unto itself." "In the middle of World War Two, U.S. military intelligence began routinely intercepting messages between the Soviet Union and the United States. They were doubly encrypted. A special team, code named Venona, was established outside Washington to break the code. Eventually, it began to make headway. Ultimately, 2900 Venona intercepts were deciphered. They exposed the extent of the Soviet espionage apparatus within the United States. The FBI knew all about it, of course, since it was the bureau's job to catch spies. But the Venona intercepts were never used to prosecute Soviet agents. President Harry Truman was never told about them." "The sad irony is that by the early 1950's, Moscow already knew. British spy Kim Philby had spilled the beans. " "Examining the Venona intercepts half a century later, Moynihan shows how they could have effectively ended the McCarthyite witch-hunt. McCarthy claimed there were Soviet spies everywhere and Communists had infiltrated the U.S. government. Thanks to Venona, the intelligence community knew exactly who the Soviets had spying in America. Venona confirmed the story former Communist Whittaker Chambers told about his friend Alger Hiss. It also supported the allegations against Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, who were executed for passing atomic bomb secrets to Moscow. The intercepts could have blunted the outrage caused by the perception that the evidence was skimpy -- or worse, trumped up -- in both cases. But they remained secret." "Sen. Joseph McCarthy, on the other hand, was attacking the government from the opposite direction. He claimed federal agencies either didn't know how extensive Soviet infiltration had become, or were complicit in it. The Venona intercepts gave U.S. intelligence a pretty clear picture of which American Communists were working for the Soviets, but they couldn't tell McCarthy, or anyone else. It was secret." "Not for another forty years would government tell what it actually knew about the Communist conspiracy: there had indeed been one, but it had never been massive; it has first been contained, then suppressed. A democracy does not leave its citizens uninformed on these matters." "Moynihan sees another danger in the cult of secrecy: governmental self-delusion. Knowledge that is held in secret is deemed to be more valuable than knowledge that is in the public domain. Case in point: a famous essay now known to have been written by State Department official George Kennan in 1947. Under the penname "X" he analyzed the state of the post-war Soviet Union. His conclusion: it couldn't last. Stalinism, he determined, contained the seeds of its own destruction. The intelligence community roundly criticized his assessment, which appeared in "Foreign Affairs" magazine. They knew better. Of course, they couldn't say why. It was secret. Forty-five years later, the CIA was still projecting the future threat of a Soviet Union that was crumbling before its blinkered eyes. If U.S. policy makers had listened to Kennan, Moynihan tells us, the past fifty years of world history could have been very different. Instead, they were seduced by the cult of secrecy." " Moynihan's indictment of "secrecy-as-official-policy" is ringing. If the government refuses to tell its citizens the truth, they are denied their right to make informed decisions. At the same time, the government cult of secrecy fosters popular cults of conspiracy. We've all heard the argument: the government knows more than it's willing to tell us about fill in the blank -- the Kennedy assassination, UFO's, fluoridated water. A government that won't share its secrets with the governed does more than foster cynicism, Moynihan argues. It undercuts the foundation of democracy." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:11:40 -0600 From: william vance durham Subject: RE: You got the money, I got the time ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0780.18785460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit stop sending me e-mail >Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 7:22 PM >From: Bart Lidofsky [SMTP:bartl@SPRYNET.COM] >Subject: Re: You got the money, I got the time kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Bart wrote: > > > The TSA is incorporated in the United States. Do you realize that you > >are advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence, by > >the way? > > It is polite, and kinda sexy, to back up such accusations with one or two > reasons which may provide support to your above claim. In what way, Bart, > is Doss "advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence?" You are correct; I should have either made that remark private, or explained it. I really and truly believe that Doss was not making his comments with the intent of advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits; I was simply trying to point out to him that he was. Doss has a past history of asking people to go through tremendous amounts of effort and expense for no purpose other than the apparent one of satisfying his own curiousity, and becoming indignant when they won't do it (a case in point was asking for complete, typed or in computer readable form, transcripts of TSA Board of Directors' meetings). The rules making not-for-profit's records for public access is to make it more difficult for them to hide improprieties, not so that people can have a Sunday afternoon's reading when they're bored. Many smaller not-for-profits can barely make ends meet; if people started coming in on a regular basis asking to see their records, the time and expense for doing so could ruin many of them. Requiring them to post them on the Internet would require they get computers, Internet accounts, and people with both financial and computer skills to keep the records posted. This expense would be prohibitive to most TS Lodges. And denying that the information is placed in a way to induce harrassment of Lodges is sort of like the so-called "right-to-lifer's" who post lists of doctors who perform abortions and their home addresses, calling the doctors murderers, and then coyly say when a doctor's home is bombed, "We didn't tell them to bomb the doctor's home". > > That's closer to a communist point of view (where the state has the > >right to all your money, and gives you what it thinks is fair) than the > >American point of view (where taxes are a fee paid to the government for > >services rendered). > > And here you are clearly implying that the "American point of view" (are > Americans the ONLY ones who think this way, Bart?) is the best way. No, I am saying that when talking about the philosophy behind the American tax, then the American point of view is the valid way to look at it. > It is > debatable whether capitalism truly is a superior form of commerce. GENUINE > "communism" really has a benevolent foundation - share and share alike. > Capitalism can hardly claim that equality is part of its goal; actually > such a goal is considered rather wussy by many of capitalism's adherents. Actually, a true communist system works quite well, when all the participants are dedicated. The kibbutz system in Israel is a good example. I had a friend who grew up in a monastery of an order of monks who have had essentially a communist system for centuries; each monk worked as hard as he could, and received whatever resources he needed. The basis that everybody works as hard as s/he can, and everybody gets what s/he needs is admirable. The flaw takes place as soon as someone complains that someone else is not working hard enough, or getting more than is needed. Then a job must be created whose duties are to determine that everybody is working as hard as they can and everybody is getting everything they need. And those with that job become especially prone to corruption, and the system decays and dies. 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Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:47:42 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: re:Judge, and farewell Hey gang, I'll start by responding to Dallas's comments concerning Judge, then explain why I will not participate in this list further. I find fascinating the distinction between "Histories and historical documents" and "opinions (his own or those of others)." What this amounts to is an insistence that ULT histories are "histories" and other sources are "opinion." I feel sure that objective non-ULT observers would agree that ULT "histories" are absolutely rife with opinion. And since my own work as well as books by Bruce Campbell and Arthur Nethercot are published by university presses rather than sectarian organizations, objective observers might consider the historical portrayals in them to be more than mere opinion. The Judge affair is treated at length by Nethercot in his Last Five Lives of Annie Besant, in a chapter called "The Judging of Judge." Unfortunately he does not have endnotes, but one can still detect what sources he used. Garrett's "Isis Very Much Unveiled" is a major source. See my bibliography in Initiates of Theosophical Masters for details on these works. As for details: I challenged Dallas's claim that Judge's "sustained effort" after TS headquarters moved to India was responsible for tremendous growth. He says that "after HPB and Olcott left for India in 1878 it was Judge who kept the TS in New York alive by holding weekly meetings, even when no one was present." That is a very misleading statement. It *was* "after...1878"-- but *well after.* My point was that Judge did not make a *sustained effort* but rather *resumed* his effort after some years. This is a matter of record and Dallas seems to avoid facing this fact. Second, as for Judge producing no letters that turned Besant against Olcott, look to Garrett, described in my Initiates, concerning threats that HSO would somehow harm Besant if she went to India. (This was after the resignation imbroglio.) Besant's reports about the letters from/through Judge show that they started fairly soon after HPB's death. And it is clear that Besant's perceiving Judge as a channel to the Masters, and their joint headship of the ES which Olcott had always kept at arm's length, had the effect of distancing her from Olcott. This whether or not the letters in question specifically denigrated HSO. They did promote Judge, as in "Judge's plan is right. Follow him and stick" (see Nethercot.) If one believes that Olcott wrote his resignation "unrequested" simply because no one who pressured him to resign did no explicitly and publicly, then there isn't much I can say to dissuade them from this view. See Nethercot for some background. As for Judge urging HSO to withdraw the resignation, the politics of all this are complicated but it would seem that alliances were constantly shifting by this point and Olcott's support from elsewhere, India particularly, had given him courage to oppose his detractors. Although in one place he attributes his change of heart to Masters' instructions, in ODL he says it was due to the influence of Indian supporters (see Initiates for the citation.) Judge's request to HSO not to resign might have been a face-saving move when it became clear that HSO did not intend to do so anyway. None of these principals can be trusted to be honest and open about such secretive political maneovering. As for Judge not wanting to go to India-- that doesn't mean he didn't want the TS presidency which could have been shifted to New York or London. Remember that a pro-Western, anti-India tone was quite prevalent in Judge's publications at the time of the division. (Not in cultural terms, but in terms of where TS effort should be concentrated.) First Dallas claimed that relations between Judge and HPB were always cordial; but when I point out counterevidence he says one should consider *all* letters. I never said that relations were *never* cordial, as of course they often were. But they were not *always* so which disproves the claim made. As to the events of 1893-94, I don't see how anything Dallas says challenges my account. It was Besant and Olcott getting together in India and comparing notes that caused the attack on Judge, which is what I said and seems to be what he is saying too. I don't see the point he is making here. When Dallas says that charges were "dismissed" that makes it seem as if some higher authority than Olcott or Besant dismissed them. Rather, Judge's objection that deciding on the "validity" of any alleged Mahatma letter would compromise the neutrality of the TS on questions about the Masters caused Olcott himself to end to proceedings. Since the Krotona conference was recorded, I'd trust the tapes before the memory and notes of a highly partisan ULT supporter listening to a TSA official. Now, as to giving up on theos-l: First, I must note that Dallas, whom I've addressed directly several times, persists in referring to me always in the third person and making requests in an oblique way, like "Could he provide evidence" etc. Refusing to grant your ideological opponents even a smidgeon of courtesy or respect is a good way to avoid any real engagement with their ideas. Essentially, Dallas has tried to control all discourse on theos-talk by simply drowning everyone in his constant verbose postings of ULT orthodoxy, and disrespecting anyone who questions it. I only tried theos-l in hopes that it might be a place where Theosophy can be discussed without the oppressing atmosphere of Dallas's orthodoxy. It clearly cannot; he behaves the same way here as on theos-talk. Second, no one else seems to be contributing much of anything, which makes the list unrewarding. Third, despite repeated requests from me, Dallas and Doss both persist in copying HUGE amounts of previous digests or posts when answering them, and with a slow modem I get awfully tired of wading through all that repeated stuff. So I wish you all well but don't care to participate further. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:40:02 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Mahatma's letters in Judge's handwriting >From WILLIAM QUAN JUDGE: THEOSOPHICAL PIONEER by Sven Eek & Boris de Zirkoff "The accusations against Judge grew out of a number of documents which Walter R. Old, at one time a devoted worker in H.P.B.'s household in London, and Sidney V. Edge, Bought to Adyar in December, 1893, and which purported to prove that Judge had been misusing the names and handwritings of the Masters to bolster has own personal aims. Olcott found the documents incriminating." p.29 "I believe that he [Judge] has sometimes received messages for other people in one or other of the ways I will mention in a moment, but not be direct writing by the Master nor by His direct precipitation; and that Mr. Judge has then believed himself to be justified in writing down in the script adopted by H.P.B. for communications from the Master, the message psychically received, and in giving it to the person for whom it is intended, leaving that person to wrongly assume that it was a direct precipitation or writing by the Master Himself - that is, that it was done through Mr. Judge, but done by the Master." p.31 (statement by Annie Besant read at the Third Session of the European Convention of the TS, July 12, 1994) >From ANCIENT WISDOM REVIVED by Bruce F. Campbell "It was assumed by some that Mrs. Besant would assume leadership of the Esoteric Section, but Judge had other ideas. He suggested that the Council of the Esoteric Section be dissolved and that its powers be delegated jointly to Mrs. Besant and himself as joint "Outer Heads" of the action. At the same time, a series of messages appeared mysteriously that were to strengthen his hand. The first, which he reported he discovered in the cabinet in H.P.B.'s room, carried the impression of a seal with the letter =91M' and appeared to be a message from the Master Morya. Several days later, at a meeting held to decide the future of the Esoteric action, Mrs. Besant found among her papers a slip which read in red pencil: "Judge's Plan is Right.' The signature and =91M' seal was there as before. Judge's plan for joint Outer Heads was adopted unanimously." "Olcott recognized the seal as one he bought some years earlier. On a trip to Punjab in 1883, he ordered a craftsman to make a seal bearing =91M' as a present for the Master M. He gave it to Madame Blavatsky to forward, but she claimed it was a slightly inaccurate representation of His sign and put it among her own things. It disappeared in 1888." pp. 105-6 >From HAMMER ON THE MOUNTAIN by Howard Murphet He [Olcott) asked Mrs. Besant to draw up the formal charges against the Vice-President. This she did in the form of a prosecutor's brief, presenting six charges with supporting evidence. In the main charges covered: deception in the use of the seal and in other matters; untruthfulness with regard to communications with the Masters; and sending out messages and orders as if sent and written by the Masters, such messages and orders being proved to be non-genuine by (a) error as in matter of fact (b) threat based on mistake, and (c) triviality. The probability of such messages being fraudulent was further enhanced by the facts that (i) they occurred only in letters from, or within the reach of, Mr. Judge, (ii) the knowledge displayed in them was limited to that possessed by Mr. Judge, and (iii) they were calculated to bring personal advantage to Mr. Judge, in some cases directly, and in all indirectly, because of his being the only person through whom such written messages were received." P.263 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:46:31 EST From: Augoeides@aol.com Subject: Re: You got the money, I got the time In a message dated 11/3/98 8:25:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << a true communist system works quite well, when all the participants are dedicated. The kibbutz system in Israel is a good example. I had a friend who grew up in a monastery of an order of monks who have had essentially a communist system for centuries; each monk worked as hard as he could, and received whatever resources he needed. >> You fail to mention that these "communities" are completely voluntary. This is quite different from collectivism imposed upon an entire country by the State. Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:40:03 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: re:Judge, and farewell At 09:47 AM 11/4/1998 -0500, Paul wrote: >>Third, despite repeated requests from me, Dallas and Doss both persist in copying HUGE amounts of previous digests or posts when answering them, and with a slow modem I get awfully tired of wading through all that repeated stuff.<<<< ffff,0000,0000Sorry to hear about your slow modem. I use a 33.6 modem which normally connects at 28.8 and I have had no problems in downloading a couple of hundreds of msgs a day. What speed modem you are using and at what speed do you connect? With the steep drop in prices of 33.6 modems, I may be able to find one at a very low price, even perhaps free. Let me know. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 8:48 From: K. Paul Johnson [SMTP:pjohnson@vsla.edu] Subject: re:Judge, and farewell Hey gang, I'll start by responding to Dallas's comments concerning Judge, then explain why I will not participate in this list further. I find fascinating the distinction between "Histories and historical documents" and "opinions (his own or those of others)." What this amounts to is an insistence that ULT histories are "histories" and other sources are "opinion." I feel sure that objective non-ULT observers would agree that ULT "histories" are absolutely rife with opinion. And since my own work as well as books by Bruce Campbell and Arthur Nethercot are published by university presses rather than sectarian organizations, objective observers might consider the historical portrayals in them to be more than mere opinion. The Judge affair is treated at length by Nethercot in his Last Five Lives of Annie Besant, in a chapter called "The Judging of Judge." Unfortunately he does not have endnotes, but one can still detect what sources he used. Garrett's "Isis Very Much Unveiled" is a major source. See my bibliography in Initiates of Theosophical Masters for details on these works. As for details: I challenged Dallas's claim that Judge's "sustained effort" after TS headquarters moved to India was responsible for tremendous growth. He says that "after HPB and Olcott left for India in 1878 it was Judge who kept the TS in New York alive by holding weekly meetings, even when no one was present." That is a very misleading statement. It *was* "after...1878"-- but *well after.* My point was that Judge did not make a *sustained effort* but rather *resumed* his effort after some years. This is a matter of record and Dallas seems to avoid facing this fact. Second, as for Judge producing no letters that turned Besant against Olcott, look to Garrett, described in my Initiates, concerning threats that HSO would somehow harm Besant if she went to India. (This was after the resignation imbroglio.) Besant's reports about the letters from/through Judge show that they started fairly soon after HPB's death. And it is clear that Besant's perceiving Judge as a channel to the Masters, and their joint headship of the ES which Olcott had always kept at arm's length, had the effect of distancing her from Olcott. This whether or not the letters in question specifically denigrated HSO. They did promote Judge, as in "Judge's plan is right. Follow him and stick" (see Nethercot.) If one believes that Olcott wrote his resignation "unrequested" simply because no one who pressured him to resign did no explicitly and publicly, then there isn't much I can say to dissuade them from this view. See Nethercot for some background. As for Judge urging HSO to withdraw the resignation, the politics of all this are complicated but it would seem that alliances were constantly shifting by this point and Olcott's support from elsewhere, India particularly, had given him courage to oppose his detractors. Although in one place he attributes his change of heart to Masters' instructions, in ODL he says it was due to the influence of Indian supporters (see Initiates for the citation.) Judge's request to HSO not to resign might have been a face-saving move when it became clear that HSO did not intend to do so anyway. None of these principals can be trusted to be honest and open about such secretive political maneovering. As for Judge not wanting to go to India-- that doesn't mean he didn't want the TS presidency which could have been shifted to New York or London. Remember that a pro-Western, anti-India tone was quite prevalent in Judge's publications at the time of the division. (Not in cultural terms, but in terms of where TS effort should be concentrated.) First Dallas claimed that relations between Judge and HPB were always cordial; but when I point out counterevidence he says one should consider *all* letters. I never said that relations were *never* cordial, as of course they often were. But they were not *always* so which disproves the claim made. As to the events of 1893-94, I don't see how anything Dallas says challenges my account. It was Besant and Olcott getting together in India and comparing notes that caused the attack on Judge, which is what I said and seems to be what he is saying too. I don't see the point he is making here. When Dallas says that charges were "dismissed" that makes it seem as if some higher authority than Olcott or Besant dismissed them. Rather, Judge's objection that deciding on the "validity" of any alleged Mahatma letter would compromise the neutrality of the TS on questions about the Masters caused Olcott himself to end to proceedings. Since the Krotona conference was recorded, I'd trust the tapes before the memory and notes of a highly partisan ULT supporter listening to a TSA official. Now, as to giving up on theos-l: First, I must note that Dallas, whom I've addressed directly several times, persists in referring to me always in the third person and making requests in an oblique way, like "Could he provide evidence" etc. Refusing to grant your ideological opponents even a smidgeon of courtesy or respect is a good way to avoid any real engagement with their ideas. Essentially, Dallas has tried to control all discourse on theos-talk by simply drowning everyone in his constant verbose postings of ULT orthodoxy, and disrespecting anyone who questions it. I only tried theos-l in hopes that it might be a place where Theosophy can be discussed without the oppressing atmosphere of Dallas's orthodoxy. It clearly cannot; he behaves the same way here as on theos-talk. Second, no one else seems to be contributing much of anything, which makes the list unrewarding. Third, despite repeated requests from me, Dallas and Doss both persist in copying HUGE amounts of previous digests or posts when answering them, and with a slow modem I get awfully tired of wading through all that repeated stuff. So I wish you all well but don't care to participate further. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:43:49 -0600 From: william vance durham Subject: RE: Mahatma's letters in Judge's handwriting ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE083C.944EBA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit do not e-mail me !!!!!!!!!!! -----Original Message----- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 20:40 From: Augoeides@aol.com [SMTP:Augoeides@aol.com] Subject: Mahatma's letters in Judge's handwriting >From WILLIAM QUAN JUDGE: THEOSOPHICAL PIONEER by Sven Eek & Boris de Zirkoff "The accusations against Judge grew out of a number of documents which Walter R. Old, at one time a devoted worker in H.P.B.'s household in London, and Sidney V. Edge, Bought to Adyar in December, 1893, and which purported to prove that Judge had been misusing the names and handwritings of the Masters to bolster has own personal aims. Olcott found the documents incriminating." p.29 "I believe that he [Judge] has sometimes received messages for other people in one or other of the ways I will mention in a moment, but not be direct writing by the Master nor by His direct precipitation; and that Mr. Judge has then believed himself to be justified in writing down in the script adopted by H.P.B. for communications from the Master, the message psychically received, and in giving it to the person for whom it is intended, leaving that person to wrongly assume that it was a direct precipitation or writing by the Master Himself - that is, that it was done through Mr. Judge, but done by the Master." p.31 (statement by Annie Besant read at the Third Session of the European Convention of the TS, July 12, 1994) >From ANCIENT WISDOM REVIVED by Bruce F. Campbell "It was assumed by some that Mrs. Besant would assume leadership of the Esoteric Section, but Judge had other ideas. He suggested that the Council of the Esoteric Section be dissolved and that its powers be delegated jointly to Mrs. Besant and himself as joint "Outer Heads" of the action. At the same time, a series of messages appeared mysteriously that were to strengthen his hand. The first, which he reported he discovered in the cabinet in H.P.B.'s room, carried the impression of a seal with the letter 'M' and appeared to be a message from the Master Morya. Several days later, at a meeting held to decide the future of the Esoteric action, Mrs. Besant found among her papers a slip which read in red pencil: "Judge's Plan is Right.' The signature and 'M' seal was there as before. Judge's plan for joint Outer Heads was adopted unanimously." "Olcott recognized the seal as one he bought some years earlier. On a trip to Punjab in 1883, he ordered a craftsman to make a seal bearing 'M' as a present for the Master M. He gave it to Madame Blavatsky to forward, but she claimed it was a slightly inaccurate representation of His sign and put it among her own things. It disappeared in 1888." pp. 105-6 >From HAMMER ON THE MOUNTAIN by Howard Murphet He [Olcott) asked Mrs. Besant to draw up the formal charges against the Vice-President. This she did in the form of a prosecutor's brief, presenting six charges with supporting evidence. In the main charges covered: deception in the use of the seal and in other matters; untruthfulness with regard to communications with the Masters; and sending out messages and orders as if sent and written by the Masters, such messages and orders being proved to be non-genuine by (a) error as in matter of fact (b) threat based on mistake, and (c) triviality. The probability of such messages being fraudulent was further enhanced by the facts that (i) they occurred only in letters from, or within the reach of, Mr. Judge, (ii) the knowledge displayed in them was limited to that possessed by Mr. Judge, and (iii) they were calculated to bring personal advantage to Mr. Judge, in some cases directly, and in all indirectly, because of his being the only person through whom such written messages were received." P.263 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 7:47 From: Augoeides@aol.com [SMTP:Augoeides@aol.com] Subject: Re: You got the money, I got the time In a message dated 11/3/98 8:25:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << a true communist system works quite well, when all the participants are dedicated. The kibbutz system in Israel is a good example. I had a friend who grew up in a monastery of an order of monks who have had essentially a communist system for centuries; each monk worked as hard as he could, and received whatever resources he needed. >> You fail to mention that these "communities" are completely voluntary. This is quite different from collectivism imposed upon an entire country by the State. Augoeides From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 23:32:44 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: You got the money, I got the time Bart wrote: > The TSA is incorporated in the United States. Do you realize that you >are advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence, by >the way? It is polite, and kinda sexy, to back up such accusations with one or two reasons which may provide support to your above claim. In what way, Bart, is Doss "advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence?" > That's closer to a communist point of view (where the state has the >right to all your money, and gives you what it thinks is fair) than the >American point of view (where taxes are a fee paid to the government for >services rendered). And here you are clearly implying that the "American point of view" (are Americans the ONLY ones who think this way, Bart?) is the best way. It is debatable whether capitalism truly is a superior form of commerce. GENUINE "communism" really has a benevolent foundation - share and share alike. Capitalism can hardly claim that equality is part of its goal; actually such a goal is considered rather wussy by many of capitalism's adherents. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:33:08 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Olcott's lady friend Dear Doss, According to the ULT sponsored history The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925, the woman in question was Henrietta Muller. I have cited her in Initiates of Theosophical Masters, reporting on a meeting at which she and Olcott met lama Ugyen Gyatso, Sarat Chandra Das, and some high Tibetan officians, in Darjeeling. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 09:23:05 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Olcott's lady friend Dear Paul: Thanks for the lead. I have a copy, courtesy of a friend I got acquainted with on Internet. (BTW, I have had contact with more "theosophists" over internet in 3 years than I contacted in 30 years -- it says something about Internet). I will look into it. Personally it does not bother me at all and I consider it something between the people concerned. Even when Olcott was selected for the job of TS, acccording to ML to APS, the Founders were not looking for non-meat eating, non smoking etc. person who fits into traditional stereotype of a "spiritual"/"religious" person. It is was stated that if they were looking for such a stereo type, there werer 10s of thousands with erroneous beliefs. Olcott himself, in a letter of H. X. tells how he was a man of the bars and women at the time he took up the task of heading TS. If anyone is interested, I can post the H. X. letter. I think anyone interested in theosophy and TS should read it to get a much broader picture, no matter what one's personal opinion or belief is. mkr At 09:33 AM 11/3/1998 -0500, you wrote: Dear Doss, According to the ULT sponsored history The Theosophical Movement 1875-1925, the woman in question was Henrietta Muller. I have cited her in Initiates of Theosophical Masters, reporting on a meeting at which she and Olcott met lama Ugyen Gyatso, Sarat Chandra Das, and some high Tibetan officians, in Darjeeling. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:22:37 -0800 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 02, 1998 Nov. 3rd 1998 Dallas writes: Dear MKR: To offer further clarification. Please I only make statements that are based on definite historical documents or first person witness. When I don't know I say so. When I guess or have an opinion-and I often have many - I also say so, so there is no mistake. Also when I find I am wrong I say so right away. Dal. Now: -- Concerning the matter of Mr. Judge, and the part that he played in the T S and its development. The statements I made are based on Histories and historical documents. If Mr. Paul Johnson has something else than opinions (his own or those of others) to offer, could they be advanced for all to consider ? As I read his statements they appear to me inaccurate and I subjoin comments. Students who desire to investigate these documents will find them detailed in two books THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT ; 1875 - 1925, and its sequel THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT : a875 - 1950 The references that are quoted there have all been verified several times. 1878 - 1896 After HPB and Olcott left for India in 1878 it was Judge who kept the T S in New York alive by holding weekly meetings, even when no one was present - as is attested to by others. Mr. Neresheimer, is one of those. Between 1879 and 1886 the work of the T S apparently faced a recession of interest in the USA - however it was Judge that kept the thread of continuity alive. 1891 - 1892 Judge produced no "Mahatma letters" that turned Besant against Olcott. It was Besant who brought certain opinions of hers to Judge late in 1891. (See HISTORIES mentioned above. ) Resolutions were passed by the American and the British Sections T S in 1892 accepting Olcott's resignation (which he wrote unrequested, alleging health reasons). Because of Judge's urging, these Resolutions requested Olcott to rescind his resignation. Olcott went on record when he did this saying that he had independently received a direct communication from "his Master" telling him to do so. This is a matter of Historical record. Judge and Vice-Presidency / Presidency Judge advised many of his close companions that he was not interested in leaving New York and America (where his work was). He was suffering from the incurable Chagres disease, (Back-water fever) which finally took his life in 1896. He did not what to go to Adyar and to assume the Presidency of the T S. He had been appointed Vice-President T S by Pres. Olcott, and this was later ratified by the Council in Adyar. This was during HPB's life-time. She stated that this appointment was made at the "Masters order." {Documents as above ] Judge's relations with HPB It is advisable to consider ALL letters, please. Then, frame your own opinion. Judge was given a Certificate (14 Dec. 1888) in ES by HPB in 1888 stating he was a "successful chela of 13 years' standing and was her "Agent" in America. More letters giving HPB's opinion of Judge are available in print. [ see LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME. ULT 1931 Centenary Edition, pp. 276 et seq. ] Besant's "Co-outer Head E S" termination by Judge Based on documents. [ See History ] 1893 - 1894 Besant arrived in Colombo late in 1893, visited Adyar soon after for the "annual meeting." Attack on Judge began early in 1894. "Trial" conducted in mid 1894 in London on flimsy "evidence." Failed and "charges" were dismissed. [ see HISTORY ] History narrates the sequence of letters and the response for all to see. Amity was declared in letters published in LUCIFER, PATH and THEOSOPHIST. Attack on Judge was resumed late in 1894. [ see History ] Krotona conference: Statements are made based on my memory (and notes) of events and words heard. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:16:16 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Corrections re Judge I find several misstatements of fact in Dallas's recent post about WQJ. First is his statement that the original issue was the position of WQJ in the TS, when Olcott, Besant and others tried to oust him. No, the *original* issue was the position of Col. Olcott, when Besant and Judge tried to oust *him* not long after HPB's death. They actually succeeded in getting him to resign; rumor is that this was due to sexual improprieties with a female Theosophist. But then Olcott changed his mind and refused to depart, alleging Masters' orders. Only after Besant changed sides, spent a long time traveling around India with Olcott, met many Indians who supported him, and decided that the Mahatma letters she got through Judge were fakes, did the caca hit the fan for Judge. Dallas says that after the attempt to oust Judge based on charges of fraud was abandoned, it was renewed later in the year. This obscures the role of the ES in the dispute. Judge and Besant were co-outer heads, and Judge summarily dismissed Besant from her position-- and she reciprocated. It was the split in the ES that led to the split in the TS. Yes, this is unfortunate history, but not one in which there are clearcut heroes and villains. It is also not true that after Olcott and HPB left for India, Judge's "sustained effort" led the American section to great growth. Not exactly; the section languished for 6 years or so and only upon Judge's return from Europe and India in 1884 did he start to devote himself to building it up. As for his having no personal ambitions, I leave it to readers to decide whether this claim fits the evidence concerning a man who produced Mahatma letters that turned Besant against Olcott and led to forcing the latter's resignation. If the letters were genuine, no personal ambition was involved. Otherwise... this would clear the way for his own rise to the presidency, and looks personally ambitious. Finally, it is not true that relations between Judge and HPB were close and always cordial. Recent publications of letters in Theosophical History magazine by Michael Gomes have shown otherwise. BTW I heard tapes from that Krotona conference and don't recall John Algeo saying anything like what Dallas recalls. His theme was using a linguistic analogy, calling Theosophy a language and various branches dialects. Perhaps he was interpreted as having *meant* "only Adyar has the Masters' backing"-- which he presumably believes-- but I can't imagine him actually saying this and would like a quote. Cheers, Paul ----- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:52:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Corrections re Judge Dear Paul: Thanks for taking the time to respond. Many of us do not have the in depth knowledge of the various happenings in the TS in the past and feedback from you is eye opening. Would you like to share any further info you have seen or read in relation to the allegation regarding Olcotts "indiscretions". My regard for him is not going to change no matter what further info comes out because he did spend much of his prime of life for expanding Theosophy. As regards what was actually said and was not said at the Krotona conference, if only the players who are still alive care to be active in Internet discussion groups, any misstatement can be put to rest instantly. But that is not happening based on what we see and I do not see any changes in the near future unless some revolution takes place in TSA. It is rather unfortunate that after HPB died, the Masters did not care to communicate as they did when she was alive. If she were to be alive today and the Masters were communicating, we would have had an instant rebuttal/correction to set facts right. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 21:48:44 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info At 09:00 PM 11/2/1998 -0500, you wrote: M K Ramadoss wrote: Organizations which are incorporated in a foreign country cannot get tax exempt status in this country. Nor can they receive the assets from a US tax exempt organization when the latter dissolves. There are some foreign organizations such as TS, Adyar Bart: The TSA is incorporated in the United States. Do you realize that you are advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence, by the way? MKR: Responds. What I wrote above is in the US Internal Revenue Code which is the law of the land. MKR: In understanding tax law, think of Uncle Sam as your financial partner. When any income is received, Uncle Sam get his share. When you get a tax break Uncle Sam chips in his share. So when you contribute to a tax exempt deductible contribution, Uncle Sam is your partner. So Uncle Sam is the partner who has an investment in the tax exempts, which means your and my tax money is supporting all tax exempts. Bart: That's closer to a communist point of view (where the state has the right to all your money, and gives you what it thinks is fair) than the American point of view (where taxes are a fee paid to the government for services rendered). MKR: What I have stated is how the tax law works. Anyone who deals with US Tax Code knows that is how it works. .....mkr ----- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 21:50:26 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: theos-l digest: October 28, 1998 If you do not want to receive any e-mail from theos-l, you need to follow the instruction at the top the msg to get yourself unsubscribed. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 9:23 From: W. Dallas TenBroeck [mailto:dalval@nwc.net] Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 02, 1998 Nov. 3rd 1998 Dallas writes: Dear MKR: To offer further clarification. Please I only make statements that are based on definite historical documents or first person witness. When I don't know I say so. When I guess or have an opinion - and I often have many - I also say so, so there is no mistake. Also when I find I am wrong I say so right away. Dal. Now: -- Concerning the matter of Mr. Judge, and the part that he played in the T S and its development. The statements I made are based on Histories and historical documents. If Mr. Paul Johnson has something else than opinions (his own or those of others) to offer, could they be advanced for all to consider ? As I read his statements they appear to me inaccurate and I subjoin comments. Students who desire to investigate these documents will find them detailed in two books THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT ; 1875 - 1925, and its sequel THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT : 1875 - 1950 The references that are quoted there have all been verified several times. 1878 - 1896 After HPB and Olcott left for India in 1878 it was Judge who kept the T S in New York alive by holding weekly meetings, even when no one was present - as is attested to by others. Mr. Neresheimer, is one of those. Between 1879 and 1886 the work of the T S apparently faced a recession of interest in the USA - however it was Judge that kept the thread of continuity alive at the HQ in New York. 1891 - 1892 Judge produced no "Mahatma letters" that turned Besant against Olcott. It was Besant who brought certain opinions of hers to Judge late in 1891. (See HISTORIES above. ) Resolutions were passed by the American and the British Sections T S in 1892 accepting Olcott's resignation (which he wrote unrequested, alleging health reasons). Because of Judge's urging, these Resolutions requested Olcott to rescind his resignation. Olcott went on record when he did this, saying that he had independently received a direct communication from "his Master" telling him to do so. This is a matter of Historical record. Judge and Vice-Presidency / Presidency (1891-2) Judge advised many of his close companions that he was not interested in leaving New York and America (where his work was). He was suffering from the incurable Chagres disease, (Back-water fever) which finally took his life in 1896. He did not want to go to Adyar and to assume the Presidency of the T S. He had been appointed Vice-President T S by Pres. Olcott, and this was later ratified by the Council in Adyar. This was during HPB's life-time. She stated that this appointment was made at the "Masters order." {Documents as above ] Judge's relations with HPB It is advisable to consider ALL letters, please. Then, frame your own opinion. 1875 -1888 Judge was given a Certificate (14 Dec. 1888) in ES by HPB in 1888 stating he was a "successful chela of 13 years' standing" and was her "Agent" in America. More letters giving HPB's opinion of Judge are available in print. [ see LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME. ULT 1931 Centenary Edition, pp. 276 et seq. ] Besant's "Co-outer Head E S" termination by Judge Based on documents. [ See History ] 1893 - 1894 Besant arrived in Colombo late in 1893, visited Adyar soon after for the "annual meeting." Attack on Judge began early in 1894. "Trial" conducted in mid 1894 in London on flimsy "evidence." Failed, and "charges" were dismissed. [ see HISTORY ] History narrates the sequence of letters and the response for all to see. Amity was declared in letters published in LUCIFER, PATH and THEOSOPHIST. Attack on Judge was resumed late in 1894. [ see History ] Krotona conference: Statements are made based on my memory (and notes) of events and words heard. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:16:16 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Corrections re Judge I find several misstatements of fact in Dallas's recent post about WQJ. First is his statement that the original issue was the position of WQJ in the TS, when Olcott, Besant and others tried to oust him. No, the *original* issue was the position of Col. Olcott, when Besant and Judge tried to oust *him* not long after HPB's death. They actually succeeded in getting him to resign; rumor is that this was due to sexual improprieties with a female Theosophist. But then Olcott changed his mind and refused to depart, alleging Masters' orders. Only after Besant changed sides, spent a long time traveling around India with Olcott, met many Indians who supported him, and decided that the Mahatma letters she got through Judge were fakes, did the caca hit the fan for Judge. Dallas says that after the attempt to oust Judge based on charges of fraud was abandoned, it was renewed later in the year. This obscures the role of the ES in the dispute. Judge and Besant were co-outer heads, and Judge summarily dismissed Besant from her position-- and she reciprocated. It was the split in the ES that led to the split in the TS. Yes, this is unfortunate history, but not one in which there are clearcut heroes and villains. It is also not true that after Olcott and HPB left for India, Judge's "sustained effort" led the American section to great growth. Not exactly; the section languished for 6 years or so and only upon Judge's return from Europe and India in 1884 did he start to devote himself to building it up. As for his having no personal ambitions, I leave it to readers to decide whether this claim fits the evidence concerning a man who produced Mahatma letters that turned Besant against Olcott and led to forcing the latter's resignation. If the letters were genuine, no personal ambition was involved. Otherwise... this would clear the way for his own rise to the presidency, and looks personally ambitious. Finally, it is not true that relations between Judge and HPB were close and always cordial. Recent publications of letters in Theosophical History magazine by Michael Gomes have shown otherwise. BTW I heard tapes from that Krotona conference and don't recall John Algeo saying anything like what Dallas recalls. His theme was using a linguistic analogy, calling Theosophy a language and various branches dialects. Perhaps he was interpreted as having *meant* "only Adyar has the Masters' backing"-- which he presumably believes-- but I can't imagine him actually saying this and would like a quote. Cheers, Paul ----- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:52:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Corrections re Judge Dear Paul: Thanks for taking the time to respond. Many of us do not have the in depth knowledge of the various happenings in the TS in the past and feedback from you is eye opening. Would you like to share any further info you have seen or read in relation to the allegation regarding Olcotts "indiscretions". My regard for him is not going to change no matter what further info comes out because he did spend much of his prime of life for expanding Theosophy. As regards what was actually said and was not said at the Krotona conference, if only the players who are still alive care to be active in Internet discussion groups, any misstatement can be put to rest instantly. But that is not happening based on what we see and I do not see any changes in the near future unless some revolution takes place in TSA. It is rather unfortunate that after HPB died, the Masters did not care to communicate as they did when she was alive. If she were to be alive today and the Masters were communicating, we would have had an instant rebuttal/correction to set facts right. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 17:55:25 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 02, 1998 Dear Dallas: I understand what you say. Having seen your msgs, I can assure you that I have every confidence in you in that you have always presented info that you know to be correct as far as you know. As regards the Krotono conference, when issues such as what was said by a person is in question, the quickest and easiest way to settle would be for that person, if alive, to respond quickly to clarify. Even if there was any doubt or ambiguity, it would be very easy to fix it. On the other hand, if one either does not care to engage in a communication or is incapable to use the modern technology, then the loser is the person concerned, not the audience. mkr >From: W. Dallas TenBroeck [mailto:dalval@nwc.net] >From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 >Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 9:23 Nov. 3rd 1998 Subject: RE: theos-l digest: November 02, 1998 Dallas writes: Dear MKR: To offer further clarification. Please I only make statements that are based on definite historical documents or first person witness. When I don't know I say so. When I guess or have an opinion - and I often have many - I also say so, so there is no mistake. Also when I find I am wrong I say so right away. Dal. Now: -- Concerning the matter of Mr. Judge, and the part that he played in the T S and its development. The statements I made are based on Histories and historical documents. If Mr. Paul Johnson has something else than opinions (his own or those of others) to offer, could they be advanced for all to consider ? As I read his statements they appear to me inaccurate and I subjoin comments. Students who desire to investigate these documents will find them detailed in two books THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT ; 1875 - 1925, and its sequel THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT : 1875 - 1950 The references that are quoted there have all been verified several times. 1878 - 1896 After HPB and Olcott left for India in 1878 it was Judge who kept the T S in New York alive by holding weekly meetings, even when no one was present - as is attested to by others. Mr. Neresheimer, is one of those. Between 1879 and 1886 the work of the T S apparently faced a recession of interest in the USA - however it was Judge that kept the thread of continuity alive at the HQ in New York. 1891 - 1892 Judge produced no "Mahatma letters" that turned Besant against Olcott. It was Besant who brought certain opinions of hers to Judge late in 1891. (See HISTORIES above. ) Resolutions were passed by the American and the British Sections T S in 1892 accepting Olcott's resignation (which he wrote unrequested, alleging health reasons). Because of Judge's urging, these Resolutions requested Olcott to rescind his resignation. Olcott went on record when he did this, saying that he had independently received a direct communication from "his Master" telling him to do so. This is a matter of Historical record. Judge and Vice-Presidency / Presidency (1891-2) Judge advised many of his close companions that he was not interested in leaving New York and America (where his work was). He was suffering from the incurable Chagres disease, (Back-water fever) which finally took his life in 1896. He did not want to go to Adyar and to assume the Presidency of the T S. He had been appointed Vice-President T S by Pres. Olcott, and this was later ratified by the Council in Adyar. This was during HPB's life-time. She stated that this appointment was made at the "Masters order." {Documents as above ] Judge's relations with HPB It is advisable to consider ALL letters, please. Then, frame your own opinion. 1875 -1888 Judge was given a Certificate (14 Dec. 1888) in ES by HPB in 1888 stating he was a "successful chela of 13 years' standing" and was her "Agent" in America. More letters giving HPB's opinion of Judge are available in print. [ see LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME. ULT 1931 Centenary Edition, pp. 276 et seq. ] Besant's "Co-outer Head E S" termination by Judge Based on documents. [ See History ] 1893 - 1894 Besant arrived in Colombo late in 1893, visited Adyar soon after for the "annual meeting." Attack on Judge began early in 1894. "Trial" conducted in mid 1894 in London on flimsy "evidence." Failed, and "charges" were dismissed. [ see HISTORY ] History narrates the sequence of letters and the response for all to see. Amity was declared in letters published in LUCIFER, PATH and THEOSOPHIST. Attack on Judge was resumed late in 1894. [ see History ] Krotona conference: Statements are made based on my memory (and notes) of events and words heard. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:16:16 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" < Subject: Corrections re Judge I find several misstatements of fact in Dallas's recent post about WQJ. First is his statement that the original issue was the position of WQJ in the TS, when Olcott, Besant and others tried to oust him. No, the *original* issue was the position of Col. Olcott, when Besant and Judge tried to oust *him* not long after HPB's death. They actually succeeded in getting him to resign; rumor is that this was due to sexual improprieties with a female Theosophist. But then Olcott changed his mind and refused to depart, alleging Masters' orders. Only after Besant changed sides, spent a long time traveling around India with Olcott, met many Indians who supported him, and decided that the Mahatma letters she got through Judge were fakes, did the caca hit the fan for Judge. Dallas says that after the attempt to oust Judge based on charges of fraud was abandoned, it was renewed later in the year. This obscures the role of the ES in the dispute. Judge and Besant were co-outer heads, and Judge summarily dismissed Besant from her position-- and she reciprocated. It was the split in the ES that led to the split in the TS. Yes, this is unfortunate history, but not one in which there are clearcut heroes and villains. It is also not true that after Olcott and HPB left for India, Judge's "sustained effort" led the American section to great growth. Not exactly; the section languished for 6 years or so and only upon Judge's return from Europe and India in 1884 did he start to devote himself to building it up. As for his having no personal ambitions, I leave it to readers to decide whether this claim fits the evidence concerning a man who produced Mahatma letters that turned Besant against Olcott and led to forcing the latter's resignation. If the letters were genuine, no personal ambition was involved. Otherwise... this would clear the way for his own rise to the presidency, and looks personally ambitious. Finally, it is not true that relations between Judge and HPB were close and always cordial. Recent publications of letters in Theosophical History magazine by Michael Gomes have shown otherwise. BTW I heard tapes from that Krotona conference and don't recall John Algeo saying anything like what Dallas recalls. His theme was using a linguistic analogy, calling Theosophy a language and various branches dialects. Perhaps he was interpreted as having *meant* "only Adyar has the Masters' backing"-- which he presumably believes-- but I can't imagine him actually saying this and would like a quote. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:52:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss < Subject: Re: Corrections re Judge Dear Paul: Thanks for taking the time to respond. Many of us do not have the in depth knowledge of the various happenings in the TS in the past and feedback from you is eye opening. Would you like to share any further info you have seen or read in relation to the allegation regarding Olcotts "indiscretions". My regard for him is not going to change no matter what further info comes out because he did spend much of his prime of life for expanding Theosophy. As regards what was actually said and was not said at the Krotona conference, if only the players who are still alive care to be active in Internet discussion groups, any misstatement can be put to rest instantly. But that is not happening based on what we see and I do not see any changes in the near future unless some revolution takes place in TSA. It is rather unfortunate that after HPB died, the Masters did not care to communicate as they did when she was alive. If she were to be alive today and the Masters were communicating, we would have had an instant rebuttal/correction to set facts right. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 20:21:44 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: You got the money, I got the time kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Bart wrote: > > > The TSA is incorporated in the United States. Do you realize that you > >are advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence, by > >the way? > > It is polite, and kinda sexy, to back up such accusations with one or two > reasons which may provide support to your above claim. In what way, Bart, > is Doss "advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence?" You are correct; I should have either made that remark private, or explained it. I really and truly believe that Doss was not making his comments with the intent of advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits; I was simply trying to point out to him that he was. Doss has a past history of asking people to go through tremendous amounts of effort and expense for no purpose other than the apparent one of satisfying his own curiousity, and becoming indignant when they won't do it (a case in point was asking for complete, typed or in computer readable form, transcripts of TSA Board of Directors' meetings). The rules making not-for-profit's records for public access is to make it more difficult for them to hide improprieties, not so that people can have a Sunday afternoon's reading when they're bored. Many smaller not-for-profits can barely make ends meet; if people started coming in on a regular basis asking to see their records, the time and expense for doing so could ruin many of them. Requiring them to post them on the Internet would require they get computers, Internet accounts, and people with both financial and computer skills to keep the records posted. This expense would be prohibitive to most TS Lodges. And denying that the information is placed in a way to induce harrassment of Lodges is sort of like the so-called "right-to-lifer's" who post lists of doctors who perform abortions and their home addresses, calling the doctors murderers, and then coyly say when a doctor's home is bombed, "We didn't tell them to bomb the doctor's home". > > That's closer to a communist point of view (where the state has the > >right to all your money, and gives you what it thinks is fair) than the > >American point of view (where taxes are a fee paid to the government for > >services rendered). > > And here you are clearly implying that the "American point of view" (are > Americans the ONLY ones who think this way, Bart?) is the best way. No, I am saying that when talking about the philosophy behind the American tax, then the American point of view is the valid way to look at it. > It is > debatable whether capitalism truly is a superior form of commerce. GENUINE > "communism" really has a benevolent foundation - share and share alike. > Capitalism can hardly claim that equality is part of its goal; actually > such a goal is considered rather wussy by many of capitalism's adherents. Actually, a true communist system works quite well, when all the participants are dedicated. The kibbutz system in Israel is a good example. I had a friend who grew up in a monastery of an order of monks who have had essentially a communist system for centuries; each monk worked as hard as he could, and received whatever resources he needed. The basis that everybody works as hard as s/he can, and everybody gets what s/he needs is admirable. The flaw takes place as soon as someone complains that someone else is not working hard enough, or getting more than is needed. Then a job must be created whose duties are to determine that everybody is working as hard as they can and everybody is getting everything they need. And those with that job become especially prone to corruption, and the system decays and dies. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 20:13:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Tax Exempt Law At 08:21 PM 11/3/1998 -0500, you wrote: kymsmith@micron.net wrote: Bart wrote: The TSA is incorporated in the United States. Do you realize that you are advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence, by the way? Kym: It is polite, and kinda sexy, to back up such accusations with one or two reasons which may provide support to your above claim. In what way, Bart, is Doss "advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence?" KYM: You are correct; I should have either made that remark private, or explained it. Bart: I really and truly believe that Doss was not making his comments with the intent of advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits; I was simply trying to point out to him that he was. Doss has a past history of asking people to go through tremendous amounts of effort and expense for no purpose other than the apparent one of satisfying his own curiousity, and becoming indignant when they won't do it (a case in point was asking for complete, typed or in computer readable form, transcripts of TSA Board of Directors' meetings). MKR: If what I asked was unreasonable, then anyone can simple tell me so. These are policy matters and each is entitled to their opinions and everyone is free to criticise anyone. No one can force anyone to do anything and this everyone knows. Regarding the reference you have made regarding the transcript of the TSA Board Meetings, most organizations keep meticulous records of their meetings and the level of detail of the transcript vary with organizations. Everyone knows, the transcripts of the meetings especially the details of who voted how on decisions is one of the tightly kept secrets of TSA. There are other subscribers who have followed TSA administrations longer than myself who can confirm this independently. In all this, let us focus on TSA, the organization and not on my little self. Bart: The rules making not-for-profit's records for public access is to make it more difficult for them to hide improprieties, not so that people can have a Sunday afternoon's reading when they're bored. Many smaller not-for-profits can barely make ends meet; if people started coming in on a regular basis asking to see their records, the time and expense for doing so could ruin many of them. Requiring them to post them on the Internet would require they get computers, Internet accounts, and people with both financial and computer skills to keep the records posted. This expense would be prohibitive to most TS Lodges. And denying that the information is placed in a way to induce harrassment of Lodges is sort of like the so-called "right-to-lifer's" who post lists of doctors who perform abortions and their home addresses, calling the doctors murderers, and then coyly say when a doctor's home is bombed, "We didn't tell them to bomb the doctor's home". MKR: Bringing the subject of the current US Law back to what I stated, it is not my interpretation. It is what the Congress has done. They have passed legislation which has been signed into law. Tax exempt organizations have to comply with them. Congress has also provided IRS with the big stick by way of penalties to ensure compliance. I was just trying to make the facts of the law known to the subscribers who may have some interest. If there are problems with the current law, the elected representatives are the ones who can fix them. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:16:16 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Corrections re Judge I find several misstatements of fact in Dallas's recent post about WQJ. First is his statement that the original issue was the position of WQJ in the TS, when Olcott, Besant and others tried to oust him. No, the *original* issue was the position of Col. Olcott, when Besant and Judge tried to oust *him* not long after HPB's death. They actually succeeded in getting him to resign; rumor is that this was due to sexual improprieties with a female Theosophist. But then Olcott changed his mind and refused to depart, alleging Masters' orders. Only after Besant changed sides, spent a long time traveling around India with Olcott, met many Indians who supported him, and decided that the Mahatma letters she got through Judge were fakes, did the caca hit the fan for Judge. Dallas says that after the attempt to oust Judge based on charges of fraud was abandoned, it was renewed later in the year. This obscures the role of the ES in the dispute. Judge and Besant were co-outer heads, and Judge summarily dismissed Besant from her position-- and she reciprocated. It was the split in the ES that led to the split in the TS. Yes, this is unfortunate history, but not one in which there are clearcut heroes and villains. It is also not true that after Olcott and HPB left for India, Judge's "sustained effort" led the American section to great growth. Not exactly; the section languished for 6 years or so and only upon Judge's return from Europe and India in 1884 did he start to devote himself to building it up. As for his having no personal ambitions, I leave it to readers to decide whether this claim fits the evidence concerning a man who produced Mahatma letters that turned Besant against Olcott and led to forcing the latter's resignation. If the letters were genuine, no personal ambition was involved. Otherwise... this would clear the way for his own rise to the presidency, and looks personally ambitious. Finally, it is not true that relations between Judge and HPB were close and always cordial. Recent publications of letters in Theosophical History magazine by Michael Gomes have shown otherwise. BTW I heard tapes from that Krotona conference and don't recall John Algeo saying anything like what Dallas recalls. His theme was using a linguistic analogy, calling Theosophy a language and various branches dialects. Perhaps he was interpreted as having *meant* "only Adyar has the Masters' backing"-- which he presumably believes-- but I can't imagine him actually saying this and would like a quote. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:52:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Corrections re Judge Dear Paul: Thanks for taking the time to respond. Many of us do not have the in depth knowledge of the various happenings in the TS in the past and feedback from you is eye opening. Would you like to share any further info you have seen or read in relation to the allegation regarding Olcotts "indiscretions". My regard for him is not going to change no matter what further info comes out because he did spend much of his prime of life for expanding Theosophy. As regards what was actually said and was not said at the Krotona conference, if only the players who are still alive care to be active in Internet discussion groups, any misstatement can be put to rest instantly. But that is not happening based on what we see and I do not see any changes in the near future unless some revolution takes place in TSA. It is rather unfortunate that after HPB died, the Masters did not care to communicate as they did when she was alive. If she were to be alive today and the Masters were communicating, we would have had an instant rebuttal/correction to set facts right. mkr At 09:16 AM 11/2/1998 -0500, you wrote: I find several misstatements of fact in Dallas's recent post about WQJ. First is his statement that the original issue was the position of WQJ in the TS, when Olcott, Besant and others tried to oust him. No, the *original* issue was the position of Col. Olcott, when Besant and Judge tried to oust *him* not long after HPB's death. They actually succeeded in getting him to resign; rumor is that this was due to sexual improprieties with a female Theosophist. But then Olcott changed his mind and refused to depart, alleging Masters' orders. Only after Besant changed sides, spent a long time traveling around India with Olcott, met many Indians who supported him, and decided that the Mahatma letters she got through Judge were fakes, did the caca hit the fan for Judge. Dallas says that after the attempt to oust Judge based on charges of fraud was abandoned, it was renewed later in the year. This obscures the role of the ES in the dispute. Judge and Besant were co-outer heads, and Judge summarily dismissed Besant from her position-- and she reciprocated. It was the split in the ES that led to the split in the TS. Yes, this is unfortunate history, but not one in which there are clearcut heroes and villains. It is also not true that after Olcott and HPB left for India, Judge's "sustained effort" led the American section to great growth. Not exactly; the section languished for 6 years or so and only upon Judge's return from Europe and India in 1884 did he start to devote himself to building it up. As for his having no personal ambitions, I leave it to readers to decide whether this claim fits the evidence concerning a man who produced Mahatma letters that turned Besant against Olcott and led to forcing the latter's resignation. If the letters were genuine, no personal ambition was involved. Otherwise... this would clear the way for his own rise to the presidency, and looks personally ambitious. Finally, it is not true that relations between Judge and HPB were close and always cordial. Recent publications of letters in Theosophical History magazine by Michael Gomes have shown otherwise. BTW I heard tapes from that Krotona conference and don't recall John Algeo saying anything like what Dallas recalls. His theme was using a linguistic analogy, calling Theosophy a language and various branches dialects. Perhaps he was interpreted as having *meant* "only Adyar has the Masters' backing"-- which he presumably believes-- but I can't imagine him actually saying this and would like a quote. Cheers, Paul --- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:45:39 -0600 From: william vance durham Subject: RE: theos-l digest: October 28, 1998 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0699.B90F4060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable u suck go away. Take me off your e-mail list because I do not want to = read any more of this stuff you are sending me. I am not interested in = the things you are talking about. So do not send me anything else. >Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 2:32 PM >From: W. Dallas TenBroeck [SMTP:dalval@nwc.net] >Subject: RE: theos-l digest: October 28, 1998 Oct 29th 1998 Dear Christine: What your grandmother reported is on the whole correct as I was present at that meeting. There was the feeling of unity based on the teachings of theosophy as originally presented by HPB and Judge. The original point at issue in the "splittings" is the position that Mr. W. Q. Judge /Vice-President of the T S occupies. In 1894, 3 years after the death of HPB Col. Olcott and Mrs. Besant (and others) tried to oust Mr. Judge from that post. They were unsuccessful. It is all a matter of history. Although reconciliation was agreed to in July 1894, the attempt to oust him was renewed by the end of that year (1894). In 1895 the American Section T.S. declared its independence of the T.S. (Adyar). This is all history, and it is quite unfortunate. Who was Wm. Q. Judge ? He was one of the original Founders of the T.S. in New York in 1875. On Sept 7th 1875 he called the meeting to order and proposed Col. Olcott to the chair. When HPB and Olcott left in late 1878 for India via London, Judge remained in America and due to his sustained effort the American Section became in 13 years the largest Section with over 300 active Branches and over 5,000 members. Judge had no personal ambitions. He lived and worked for Theosophy - as his writings attest. His relations with HPB were close and always cordial. He was her collaborator. HPB found it necessary at several times to emphasize his value to the Cause of Theosophy. One of these occasions was her "Message" to the Convention of 1888 of the American Section T S, which said in part: "It is to you chiefly, if not entirely, that the Theosophical Society owes its existence in 1888. Let me then thank you for it, for the fist, and perhaps for the last time publicly, and from the bottom of my heart, which beats only for the cause you represent so well and serve so faithfully. I ask you also to remember that, on this important occasion, my voice is but the feeble echo of other more sacred voices, and the transmitter of the approval of Those whose presence is alive in more than one true Theosophical heart, and lives, as I know, preeminently in yours." This is only one example out of many in which she expressed her opinion concerning the value and loyalty of Judge to Masters' cause. The meeting went very well till almost at the end when Prof. John Algeo spoke and proclaimed the Theosophical Society as the only Society which had a mandate from the Masters - and thereby he claimed for it, as I understood, its position as being sole in authority. All the rest being considered in error. I felt this was unfortunate and it cast for me a shadow over all the good work that had preceded it. There exists in print a book based on historical documents and not opinions named THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875-1950 - in that the entire sequence of events is laid out for students to consider and form their own conclusions. I speak of this as a matter of fact, not to create further rifts but solely for accuracy. One more observation that I would make is the following: Whether one becomes a member of an organization, society, party, religion, etc... each one retains the inalienable right to decide for themselves the right or wrong of their own thoughts and actions. There is no such thing as "following a leader," or "observing the (party, etc...) line." Even our laws do not recognize the placing of blame on anyone but the individual who chooses. Truth is the "property" of no one, and of no "Society." I hope this is helpful, Dallas >Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 9:00 PM >From: Theosophy Study List digest [mailto:theos-l@list.vnet.net] >Subject: theos-l digest: October 28, 1998 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:18:33 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: October 27, 1998 Reading all the discussions recently about what is going on in the TSA has given me food for thought. Tonight, as luck (synchronicity?) would have it, I was de-cluttering and found a letter from my grandmother (Virginia G. Hanson, formerly a very involved member of the TSA and a great human being, IMHO). The letter is dated July 31, 1987, over ten years ago, and apparently addresses some questions I had about the Society at that time. Because I have no first-hand knowledge of the facts, I thought I would simply quote here what she said in 1987. I found it amazing that she addressed some of the same issues that are being discussed in 1998, and I submit the following as food for thought only: "[S]several groups split off from the parent society. The Society has always (and still does) attract(ed) rather strong-minded people, sometimes the personally ambitious, sometimes persons interested primarily in phenomena - an interest which the Society does *not* encourage. These people usually leave rather soon. Sometimes I think the "splittings off" were good, since they give opportunity for the presentation of different points of view. Unfortunately, some of the groups which left the parent society and formed separate organizations are still disturbed over the issues which caused the divisions, and are sometimes very critical of what they call the "Adyar Society." This feeling does not exist in the Adyar Society; I have never seen anything in its literature or publications even remotely critical of the other groups, but members of these groups continue to "pick at" the parent society. Nevertheless, on a personal basis, many of us have some very good friends among them. A few years ago, here at Krotona [in Ojai, California], we had a full day meeting of *all* the groups and each had an opportunity to present its particular point of view. It was most interesting and a very warm and friendly occasion. I see no reason why there should be any necessity to "reunite" administratively; what *is* important is the realization that all are working toward the same end, which is to make the theosophical world view available to those who are interested. There are no real differences in the world view. Some later leaders of the parent society wrote somewhat simplified versions of Theosophy, perhaps also more systematically presented then in "The Secret Doctrine," and some of the so-called "splinter groups" took vehement objections to them. A lot of personality things got mixed up in this too. But "The Secret Doctrine" remains the primary text and has never gone out of print. I have read quite a lot of the so-called "neo-Theosophy" and can see that it has helped many to get a glimmering of what it is all about. I do not denigrate it, but I no longer read it." Hope this helps in some way. 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AABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAdaU= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0699.B90F4060-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 21:00:08 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info M K Ramadoss wrote: > Organizations which are incorporated in a foreign country cannot get tax > exempt status in this country. Nor can they receive the assets from a US > tax exempt organization when the latter dissolves. There are some foreign > organizations such as TS, Adyar The TSA is incorporated in the United States. Do you realize that you are advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence, by the way? > In understanding tax law, think of Uncle Sam as your financial partner. > When any income is received, Uncle Sam get his share. When you get a tax > break Uncle Sam chips in his share. So when you contribute to a tax exempt > deductible contribution, Uncle Sam is your partner. So Uncle Sam is the > partner who has an investment in the tax exempts, which means your and my > tax money is supporting all tax exempts. That's closer to a communist point of view (where the state has the right to all your money, and gives you what it thinks is fair) than the American point of view (where taxes are a fee paid to the government for services rendered). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 21:48:44 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info At 09:00 PM 11/2/1998 -0500, you wrote: M K Ramadoss wrote: Organizations which are incorporated in a foreign country cannot get tax exempt status in this country. Nor can they receive the assets from a US tax exempt organization when the latter dissolves. There are some foreign organizations such as TS, Adyar Bart: The TSA is incorporated in the United States. Do you realize that you are advocating the harrassment of not-for-profits into non-existence, by the way? MKR: Responds. What I wrote above is in the US Internal Revenue Code which is the law of the land. MKR: In understanding tax law, think of Uncle Sam as your financial partner. When any income is received, Uncle Sam get his share. When you get a tax break Uncle Sam chips in his share. So when you contribute to a tax exempt deductible contribution, Uncle Sam is your partner. So Uncle Sam is the partner who has an investment in the tax exempts, which means your and my tax money is supporting all tax exempts. Bart: That's closer to a communist point of view (where the state has the right to all your money, and gives you what it thinks is fair) than the American point of view (where taxes are a fee paid to the government for services rendered). MKR: What I have stated is how the tax law works. Anyone who deals with US Tax Code knows that is how it works. .....mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 21:50:26 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: theos-l digest: October 28, 1998 If you do not want to receive any e-mail from theos-l, you need to follow the instruction at the top the msg to get yourself unsubscribed. mkr At 07:45 PM 11/2/1998 -0600, you wrote: >u suck go away. Take me off your e-mail list because I do not want to read any more of this stuff you are sending me. I am not interested in the things you are talking about. So do not send me anything else. > >-----Original Message----- >From: W. Dallas TenBroeck [SMTP:dalval@nwc.net] >Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 2:32 PM >To: Theosophy Study List >Subject: RE: theos-l digest: October 28, 1998 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 04:02:05 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Corrections re Judge M K Ramadoss writes >It is rather unfortunate that after HPB died, the Masters did not care to >communicate as they did when she was alive. ROFL! Think about it! Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 01:48:10 -0500 (EST) From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The November THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out The November issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "The Three Levels of Moral Development," by Jerry Schueler "Introduction to 'Sanskrit Keys to the Wisdom Religion,'" by Judith Tyberg "New 'Theosophical History' Publication," by John Patrick Deveney "Blavatsky Net Update," by Reed Carson "Wisdomworld Website" "The Universal Law of Will," by Gerald Schueler "Helping the Theosophical Order of Service," by Jean Gullo "Awakening into Awareness," by Metta Zetty "Updated 'Theosophical History' Web Page," by John Patrick Deveney "The Eternal Unity," by Gyanendra N. Chakravarti "Is It Wise to Talk About Spiritual Experiences," by Eldon Tucker "With Rolling Drums," by Christine Hanson "Backgrounds," by W. Emmett Small "Why Study Theosophy," by A. Trevor Barker THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:31:44 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: theos-l digest: October 28, 1998 Oct 29th 1998 Dear Christine: What your grandmother reported is on the whole correct as I was present at that meeting. There was the feeling of unity based on the teachings of theosophy as originally presented by HPB and Judge. The original point at issue in the "splittings" is the position that Mr. W. Q. Judge /Vice-President of the T S occupies. In 1894, 3 years after the death of HPB Col. Olcott and Mrs. Besant (and others) tried to oust Mr. Judge from that post. They were unsuccessful. It is all a matter of history. Although reconciliation was agreed to in July 1894, the attempt to oust him was renewed by the end of that year (1894). In 1895 the American Section T.S. declared its independence of the T.S. (Adyar). This is all history, and it is quite unfortunate. Who was Wm. Q. Judge ? He was one of the original Founders of the T.S. in New York in 1875. On Sept 7th 1875 he called the meeting to order and proposed Col. Olcott to the chair. When HPB and Olcott left in late 1878 for India via London, Judge remained in America and due to his sustained effort the American Section became in 13 years the largest Section with over 300 active Branches and over 5,000 members. Judge had no personal ambitions. He lived and worked for Theosophy - as his writings attest. His relations with HPB were close and always cordial. He was her collaborator. HPB found it necessary at several times to emphasize his value to the Cause of Theosophy. One of these occasions was her "Message" to the Convention of 1888 of the American Section T S, which said in part: "It is to you chiefly, if not entirely, that the Theosophical Society owes its existence in 1888. Let me then thank you for it, for the fist, and perhaps for the last time publicly, and from the bottom of my heart, which beats only for the cause you represent so well and serve so faithfully. I ask you also to remember that, on this important occasion, my voice is but the feeble echo of other more sacred voices, and the transmitter of the approval of Those whose presence is alive in more than one true Theosophical heart, and lives, as I know, preeminently in yours." This is only one example out of many in which she expressed her opinion concerning the value and loyalty of Judge to Masters' cause. The meeting went very well till almost at the end when Prof. John Algeo spoke and proclaimed the Theosophical Society as the only Society which had a mandate from the Masters - and thereby he claimed for it, as I understood, its position as being sole in authority. All the rest being considered in error. I felt this was unfortunate and it cast for me a shadow over all the good work that had preceded it. There exists in print a book based on historical documents and not opinions named THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875-1950 - in that the entire sequence of events is laid out for students to consider and form their own conclusions. I speak of this as a matter of fact, not to create further rifts but solely for accuracy. One more observation that I would make is the following: Whether one becomes a member of an organization, society, party, religion, etc... each one retains the inalienable right to decide for themselves the right or wrong of their own thoughts and actions. There is no such thing as "following a leader," or "observing the (party, etc...) line." Even our laws do not recognize the placing of blame on anyone but the individual who chooses. Truth is the "property" of no one, and of no "Society." I hope this is helpful, Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:18:33 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: October 27, 1998 Reading all the discussions recently about what is going on in the TSA has given me food for thought. Tonight, as luck (synchronicity?) would have it, I was de-cluttering and found a letter from my grandmother (Virginia G. Hanson, formerly a very involved member of the TSA and a great human being, IMHO). The letter is dated July 31, 1987, over ten years ago, and apparently addresses some questions I had about the Society at that time. Because I have no first-hand knowledge of the facts, I thought I would simply quote here what she said in 1987. I found it amazing that she addressed some of the same issues that are being discussed in 1998, and I submit the following as food for thought only: "[S]several groups split off from the parent society. The Society has always (and still does) attract(ed) rather strong-minded people, sometimes the personally ambitious, sometimes persons interested primarily in phenomena - an interest which the Society does *not* encourage. These people usually leave rather soon. Sometimes I think the "splittings off" were good, since they give opportunity for the presentation of different points of view. Unfortunately, some of the groups which left the parent society and formed separate organizations are still disturbed over the issues which caused the divisions, and are sometimes very critical of what they call the "Adyar Society." This feeling does not exist in the Adyar Society; I have never seen anything in its literature or publications even remotely critical of the other groups, but members of these groups continue to "pick at" the parent society. Nevertheless, on a personal basis, many of us have some very good friends among them. A few years ago, here at Krotona [in Ojai, California], we had a full day meeting of *all* the groups and each had an opportunity to present its particular point of view. It was most interesting and a very warm and friendly occasion. I see no reason why there should be any necessity to "reunite" administratively; what *is* important is the realization that all are working toward the same end, which is to make the theosophical world view available to those who are interested. There are no real differences in the world view. Some later leaders of the parent society wrote somewhat simplified versions of Theosophy, perhaps also more systematically presented then in "The Secret Doctrine," and some of the so-called "splinter groups" took vehement objections to them. A lot of personality things got mixed up in this too. But "The Secret Doctrine" remains the primary text and has never gone out of print. I have read quite a lot of the so-called "neo-Theosophy" and can see that it has helped many to get a glimmering of what it is all about. I do not denigrate it, but I no longer read it." Hope this helps in some way. Christine Hanson ================================================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 15:04:25 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: theos-l digest: October 28, 1998 At 03:31 PM 11/1/1998 -0500, W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: Oct 29th 1998 The meeting went very well till almost at the end when Prof. John Algeo spoke and proclaimed the Theosophical Society as the only Society which had a mandate from the Masters - and thereby he claimed for it, as I understood, its position as being sole in authority. All the rest being considered in error. I felt this was unfortunate and it cast for me a shadow over all the good work that had preceded it. ================ mkr: That is very interesting. How many believe such claims, who knows. It would be very interesting to know if anyone recently had any conversation or communications from the Masters, supporting any such a claim. I doubt we will find anyone to corroborate such claims. Of course anyone is 100% entitled to believe in anything they believe in. Using simple common sense, I do not think any organization or person is in the position of being exclusive mouthpiece of the Masters. They are too smart to have any such gate keepers. They know what bureaucracies are capable and not capable of. On the other hand, it more likely that the most unlikely persons and organizations may be used as tools to achieve the ends the Masters are working for. Who knows? So you and I, whatever may be our own personal beliefs or ideologies may be used for many great purposes more often than the bureaucrats (elected or appointed) even without our consciously aware of. What is critical are the results. Is it helping the humanity, however little. That is what They have clearly explained time and again as Their job, not trying to recruit and train future Masters. =================================== Dallas: One more observation that I would make is the following: Whether one becomes a member of an organization, society, party, religion, etc... each one retains the inalienable right to decide for themselves the right or wrong of their own thoughts and actions. There is no such thing as "following a leader," or "observing the (party, etc...) line." Even our laws do not recognize the placing of blame on anyone but the individual who chooses. Truth is the "property" of no one, and of no "Society." MKR: Well said, Dallas. Is not this the msg Lord Buddha tried to bring to the masses? This was at a time when the Brahmins had served as gatekeepers and tried to play intermediaries between man/woman and god. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 01:47:49 -0500 (EST) From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The November THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out The November issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "The Three Levels of Moral Development," by Jerry Schueler "Introduction to 'Sanskrit Keys to the Wisdom Religion,'" by Judith Tyberg "New 'Theosophical History' Publication," by John Patrick Deveney "Blavatsky Net Update," by Reed Carson "Wisdomworld Website" "The Universal Law of Will," by Gerald Schueler "Helping the Theosophical Order of Service," by Jean Gullo "Awakening into Awareness," by Metta Zetty "Updated 'Theosophical History' Web Page," by John Patrick Deveney "The Eternal Unity," by Gyanendra N. Chakravarti "Is It Wise to Talk About Spiritual Experiences," by Eldon Tucker "With Rolling Drums," by Christine Hanson "Backgrounds," by W. Emmett Small "Why Study Theosophy," by A. Trevor Barker THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com.