From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 21:59:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Public Access to Non Profit Info US Congress is getting impatient with the Non Profit Tax Exempts, as there is too much of expenses of many of these organizations are questionable in terms of what is allowed by the tax law. As a consequence, slowly legislation has been passed and being implemented to make it easy for the public to access some of the operational information which are already in the public domain. Soon screws are going to be tightened on tax exempts as far as public access to the info on the operations. What congress had done is to delegate the compliance and enforcement function to the IRS. One of the ways this is done is to increase the penalties on the tax exempts for non responsiveness/non compliance in such a way the penalties can be painful. The details are being finalized in Washington DC and we can hope to hear the full details before the end of the year. Keep tuned. You can get free persuasive help and assistance from IRS to make any tax exempt organization to be responsive to public requests for the info already in public domain. mkr --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: EDITOR@THEOSOPHY.COM List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-530Y@list.vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Saturday, October 31, 1998 9:00 From: Theosophy Study List digest [theos-l@list.vnet.net] Subject: theos-l digest: October 31, 1998 Theosophy Study List Digest for Saturday, October 31, 1998. 1. Internet as a medium of communication 2. Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info 3. Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info 4. Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info 5. Interesting statements made in the SECRET DOCTRINE -- On Numbers and Cosmogony and Initiation 6. RE: statements in SECRET DOCTRINE -- Sorry some corrections detected -- now corrected 7. RE: Public Access to Non-Profit Info 8. RE: Public Access to Non-Profit Info 9. RE: statements in SECRET DOCTRINE -- Sorry some corrections detected -- now corrected 10. RE: Vnet moves all Lists to Lyris (software change) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 00:22:16 -0500 (EST) From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet as a medium of communication Here is an announcement. The significant aspect is the quick reporting on the proceedings of the conference. This appears to be the trend of the next millenium even though the traditional paper version delivered by snailmail delayed by months will continue. I think other organizations still happily living in the techniques and technology of 18th century or even previous manvantara may want to wake up to the reality of the day. mkr ================== _____________ ANNOUNCEMENTS o SAME-DAY IN-DEPTH COVERAGE OF THE 71ST AMERICAN HEART ASSOCIATION SCIENTIFIC SESSIONS COMING NOVEMBER 8 - 11 *************************************************************** "Scientific Sessions Highlights Online" from Medscape will provide in-depth coverage of the American Heart Association (AHA) 71st Scientific Sessions, November 8-11, 1998 for cardiovascular disease professionals. Medscape's team of physician reporters will post clinically focused summaries of the most important news coming out of the AHA meeting within hours of clinical presentations and seminars on hypertension prevention and control, new findings and controversies in arrhythmia management, advances in anti-thrombotic therapies, and other important topics. The faculty for these summaries will include Romualdo Belardinelli, MD, William Groh, MD, Daniel Jones, MD, and John Keaney, MD, among a number of other presenters at the meeting. The summaries will be available at: http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/CNO/1998/AHA/public/index-AHA.html Medscape's Conference News Online coverage of the 71st Scientific Sessions is presented by the American Heart Association through an unrestricted educational grant from Pfizer, Inc. ___ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 22:49:36 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info Doss wrote: >You can get free persuasive help and assistance from IRS to make any tax >exempt organization to be responsive to public requests for the info >already in public domain. >From what I understand from your post, this sounds like a postive event. Does any of this legislation include an overview of just what a "non-profit" organization is in order to qualify? There are certainly many groups who qualify and deserve this tax-exempt status; however, I fail to see how Pat Robertson's cuddly coffee-klatch or schools which are private and/or religious in nature manage to enjoy this perk, but they surely do. And, any non-profit group which balks at having to reveal just what their funds went for should cause the pop up of four red flags and a flashing "Tilt" sign in the mind of the public. And I am always suspicious of organizations whose "president" parts his/her hair on the side. . .. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 07:25:31 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info At 10:49 PM 10/30/1998 -0700, you wrote: Doss wrote: You can get free persuasive help and assistance from IRS to make any tax exempt organization to be responsive to public requests for the info already in public domain. KYM Wrote: >From what I understand from your post, this sounds like a postive event. Does any of this legislation include an overview of just what a "non-profit" organization is in order to qualify? There are certainly many groups who qualify and deserve this tax-exempt status; however, I fail to see how Pat Robertson's cuddly coffee-klatch or schools which are private and/or religious in nature manage to enjoy this perk, but they surely do. MKR At the Federal level, the key is exemption from taxes and deductibility of contributions. The kind of organizations that qualify for being classified as tax exempt organization was laid down long time ago and not much fundamental change has taken place. The "religious" exemption is one which is more broadly interpreted by courts and that is how you find many of them raise questions in the mind of citizens. But religious freedom is the basis. As for the schools, IRS has of late been getting quite tough on those that discriminate on any basis. KYM Wrote: And, any non-profit group which balks at having to reveal just what their funds went for should cause the pop up of four red flags and a flashing "Tilt" sign in the mind of the public. And I am always suspicious of organizations whose "president" parts his/her hair on the side. . .. MKR Wrote: Congress felt that more easy access to info already in the public domain under the law is necessary so the public who have an interest as their tax money is going to support these organizations. The objective of the congress is to use the public as a feedback mechanism so that public can see where the funds are going. It is not unusual that congress and IRS to get compliants from public which lead to investigation and action on the organizations which violate the law. After the changes are fully implemented, which is expected in the next couple of months, it would be very easy to get info from any tax exempt organization those info which are already in the public domain. It is my assessment that most tax exempts are unaware of these changes even though many of them may be spending a lot of money on tax attorneys and accountants. If anyone needs any info on tax exemption matter, let me know. I have been professionally involved in getting tax exemption for poor organizations working for humanitarian and animal welfare causes which cannot afford expensive attorneys and accountants. Recently to my utter amazement, an application I filed got approved in 20 business days, which is unheard of. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 07:46:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info There seems to be some fuzziness in the minds of some regarding non-profit and tax exempt organization. To clarify, between non-profit and tax exempt organizations, the classification of non-profit is usually done when the organization incorporates under the state non profit corporation act. Federal law has nothing to do with non profit issue. However, tax exempt issue is a question of whether the organization has to pay income and sales taxes. Federal law controls and states follow federal decision to classify an organization as tax exempt. An organization could be non profit but not tax exempt. Once tax exempt, usually states exempt the organization from state income tax, property tax, franchise tax as well as sales tax on items it buys for its tax exempt use. The other fringe benefit is the lower postage rates tax exempts pay on bulk mailing. In addition, for tax purposes contributions only to a tax exempt organization may be deductible. BTW, there are several categories of tax exempts and only to contributions to some of them are deductible. Also, another key factor in granting tax exempt status is what happens when the organization is dissolved. The residual assets has to be distributed to the state or other tax exempt organization in a similar category. Organizations which are incorporated in a foreign country cannot get tax exempt status in this country. Nor can they receive the assets from a US tax exempt organization when the latter dissolves. There are some foreign organizations such as TS, Adyar which are included in the tax exempt list, which appears to have happened by mistake when old organizations were grand fathered when Income Tax law was originally enacted. (The proposed bylaws change will be objected to by IRS as TSA assets in the event of dissolution can end up in control of an organization which is in a foreign country.) In understanding tax law, think of Uncle Sam as your financial partner. When any income is received, Uncle Sam get his share. When you get a tax break Uncle Sam chips in his share. So when you contribute to a tax exempt deductible contribution, Uncle Sam is your partner. So Uncle Sam is the partner who has an investment in the tax exempts, which means your and my tax money is supporting all tax exempts. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 18:11:37 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Interesting statements made in the SECRET DOCTRINE -- On Numbers and Cosmogony and Initiation Oct 30th 1998 >From the SECRET DOCTRINE: "...every theology, from the earliest and oldest down to the latest, has sprung not only from a common source of abstract beliefs, but from on universal esoteric, or "Mystery" language...The great archaic system known from prehistoric ages as the sacred Wisdom Science...can be traced in every old as well as in every new religion, had, and still has, its universal language...the language of the Hierophants, which has seven "dialects" ...each referring ...to one of the seven mysteries of Nature. Each had its own symbolism...the words of that mystery language signified the same thing to each man of whatever nationality" SD I 310 "It is maintained that INDIA...including its ancient boundaries is the only country in the world which still has among her sons adepts, who have the knowledge of all the seven sub-systems and the keys to the entire system. [ astronomical, geometrical, numerical, physiological (311, 313) anthropological, psychic, alchemical (365) ] " SD I 311 "...the Rishis were the septiform presentations 1) of the noumena of the intelligent Powers of nature; 2) of Cosmic Forces; 3) of celestial bodies; 4) of gods or Dhyan Chohans; 5) of psychic and spiritual powers: 6) of divine kings on earth (or the incarnations of the gods); and 7) of terrestrial heroes or men. The knowledge of how to discern among thee seven forms the one that is meant, belonged at all times to the initiates..." SD II 765 "The seven fundamental transformations of the globes or heavenly spheres, or rather their constituent particles of matter, is described as follows: 1) the homogeneous; 2) the aeriform and radiant (gaseous; 3) Curd-like (nebulous); 4) Atomic, Ethereal (beginning of motion, hence of differentiation); 5) Germinal, fiery, (differentiated, but composed of the germs only of the Elements, in their earliest states, they having seven states, when completely developed on our earth); 6) Four-fold, vapory (the future Earth); 7) Cold and depending (on the Sun for life and light)." SD I 295-6fn. "...it is on this "knowledge" that the programme of the MYSTERIES and of the series of Initiations was based: thence, the construction of the Pyramids the everlasting record and the indestructible symbol of these Mysteries and Initiations on Earth, as the courses of stars are in the Heaven. The cycle of Initiation was a reproduction in miniature of that great series of Cosmic changes to which astronomers have given the name of tropical or sidereal year. Just as, at the close of the cycle of the sidereal year [ 25,868 years ], the heavenly bodies return to the same relative positions as the occupied at its outset, so at the close of the cycle of Initiation the inner man regained the pristine state of divine purity and knowledge from which he set out on his cycle of terrestrial incarnations." SD I 314 "Every old religion is but a chapter or two of the entire volume of archaic primeval mysteries-Eastern Occultism alone being able to boast that it is in possession of the full secret, with its seven keys." SD I 318 "...the evolution and correlation of the mysteries of Kosmos, of its growth and development-spiritual and physical, abstract and concrete-were first recorded in cal changes of shape. Every Cosmogony began with a circle, a point, a triangle and a cube, u; to number 9, when it was synthesized by the first line and a circle-the Pythagorean mystic Decade, the sum of all, involving and expressing the mysteries of the entire Kosmos; recorded a hundred times more fully in the Hindu system, for him who can understand its mystic language. The numbers 3 and 4, in their blending of 7, as those of 5, 6, 9, and 10, are the very corner stone of Occult Cosmogonies." SD I 321 "The corner-stone of magic is an intimate practical knowledge of magnetism and electricity, their qualities, correlatons, and potencies. Especially necessary is a familiarity with their effects in and upon the animal kingdom and man...To sum up all in a few words, MAGIC is spiritual WISDOM; nature the material ally, pupil and servant of the magician. One common vital principle pervades all things and this is controllable by the perfected human will...[The adept] cannot control the immortal spirit of any human being, living or dead, for all such spirits are alike sparks of the Divine Essence, and not subject to any foreign domination." Isis Unveiled II 589-90 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:24:20 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: statements in SECRET DOCTRINE -- Sorry some corrections detected -- now corrected Oct 31st 1998 This is the corrected version: Sorry ! Dallas Oct 30th 1998 >Quotations from the SECRET DOCTRINE & Isis Unveiled: "...every theology, from the earliest and oldest down to the latest, has sprung not only from a common source of abstract beliefs, but from one universal esoteric, or "Mystery" language...The great archaic system known from prehistoric ages as the sacred Wisdom Science...can be traced in every old as well as in every new religion, had, and still has, its universal language...the language of the Hierophants, which has seven "dialects"...each referring...to one of the seven mysteries of Nature. Each had its own symbolism...the words of that mystery language signified the same thing to each man of whatever nationality" SD I 310 "It is maintained that INDIA...including its ancient boundaries is the only country in the world which still has among her sons adepts, who have the knowledge of all the seven sub-systems and the keys to the entire system. [ astronomical, geometrical, numerical, physiological, anthropological, psychic, alchemical ]." SD I 311 "...the Rishis were the septiform presentations 1) of the noumena of the intelligent Powers of nature; 2) of Cosmic Forces; 3) of celestial bodies; 4) of gods or Dhyan Chohans; 5) of psychic and spiritual powers: 6) of divine kings on earth (or the incarnations of the gods); and 7) of terrestrial heroes or men. The knowledge of how to discern among thee seven forms the one that is meant, belonged at all times to the initiates..." SD II 765 "The seven fundamental transformations of the globes or heavenly spheres, or rather their constituent particles of matter, is described as follows: 1) the homogeneous; 2) the aeriform and radiant (gaseous; 3) Curd-like (nebulous); 4) Atomic, Ethereal (beginning of motion, hence of differentiation); 5) Germinal, fiery, (differentiated, but composed of the germs only of the Elements, in their earliest states, they having seven states, when completely developed on our earth); 6) Four-fold, vapory (the future Earth); 7) Cold and depending (on the Sun for life and light)." SD I 295-6fn. "...it is on this "knowledge" that the programme of the MYSTERIES and of the series of Initiations was based: thence, the construction of the Pyramids the everlasting record and the indestructible symbol of these Mysteries and Initiations on Earth, as the courses of stars are in the Heaven. The cycle of Initiation was a reproduction in miniature of that great series of Cosmic changes to which astronomers have given the name of tropical or sidereal year. Just as, at the close of the cycle of the sidereal year [ 25,868 years ], the heavenly bodies return to the same relative positions as they occupied at its outset, so at the close of the cycle of Initiation the inner man regained the pristine state of divine purity and knowledge from which he set out on his cycle of terrestrial incarnations." SD I 314 "Every old religion is but a chapter or two of the entire volume of archaic primeval mysteries--Eastern Occultism alone being able to boast that it is in possession of the full secret, with its seven keys." SD I 318 "...the evolution and correlation of the mysteries of Kosmos, of its growth and development--spiritual and physical, abstract and concrete--were first recorded in geometrical changes of shape. Every Cosmogony began with a circle, a point, a triangle and a cube, up to number 9, when it was synthesized by the first line and a circle--the Pythagorean mystic Decade, the sum of all, involving and expressing the mysteries of the entire Kosmos; recorded a hundred times more fully in the Hindu system, for him who can understand its mystic language. The numbers 3 and 4, in their blending of 7, as those of 5, 6, 9, and 10, are the very corner- stone of Occult Cosmogonies." SD I 321 "The corner-stone of magic is an intimate practical knowledge of magnetism and electricity, their qualities, correlatons, and potencies. Especially necessary is a familiarity with their effects in and upon the animal kingdom and man...To sum up all in a few words, MAGIC is spiritual WISDOM; nature the material ally, pupil and servant of the magician. One common vital principle pervades all things and this is controllable by the perfected human will...[The adept] cannot control the immortal spirit of any human being, living or dead, for all such spirits are alike sparks of the Divine Essence, and not subject to any foreign domination." Isis Unveiled II 589-90 -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 21:25:37 -0600 From: william vance durham Subject: RE: Public Access to Non-Profit Info ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0516.6F595F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stop sending me e-mail !!! >From: kymsmith@micron.net [SMTP:kymsmith@micron.net] >Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 11:50 PM >Subject: Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info Doss wrote: >You can get free persuasive help and assistance from IRS to make any tax >exempt organization to be responsive to public requests for the info >already in public domain. >From what I understand from your post, this sounds like a postive event. Does any of this legislation include an overview of just what a "non-profit" organization is in order to qualify? There are certainly many groups who qualify and deserve this tax-exempt status; however, I fail to see how Pat Robertson's cuddly coffee-klatch or schools which are private and/or religious in nature manage to enjoy this perk, but they surely do. And, any non-profit group which balks at having to reveal just what their funds went for should cause the pop up of four red flags and a flashing "Tilt" sign in the mind of the public. And I am always suspicious of organizations whose "president" parts his/her hair on the side. . .. Kym --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: WDURHAM@SPRYNET.COM List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-530Y@list.vnet.net ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0516.6F595F20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjUDAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAqAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAASAAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAFRoZW9zb3BoeSBTdHVk eSBMaXN0AFNNVFAAdGhlb3MtbEBsaXN0LnZuZXQubmV0AB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAWAAAAdGhlb3MtbEBsaXN0LnZuZXQubmV0AAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAA FwAAACdUaGVvc29waHkgU3R1ZHkgTGlzdCcAAAIBCzABAAAAGwAAAFNNVFA6VEhFT1MtTEBMSVNU LlZORVQuTkVUAAADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAHgD2XwEAAAAVAAAAVGhlb3NvcGh5IFN0dWR5IExp c3QAAAAAAgH3XwEAAABIAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAVGhlb3NvcGh5IFN0dWR5 IExpc3QAU01UUAB0aGVvcy1sQGxpc3Qudm5ldC5uZXQAAwD9XwEAAAADAP9fAAAAAAIB9g8BAAAA BAAAAAAAAAKFWQEEgAEAJQAAAFJFOiBQdWJsaWMgQWNjZXNzIHRvIE5vbi1Qcm9maXQgSW5mbwBd DAEFgAMADgAAAM4HCgAfABUAGQAlAAYAVwEBIIADAA4AAADOBwoAHwAVABgAMQAGAGIBAQmAAQAh AAAARDUzNjI3NDU0NjA1QkUxMTk2Q0IyNjc0NkE5NDJFNzYA+wYBA5AGADwIAAAhAAAACwACAAEA AAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AKDXSUtHBb4BHgBw AAEAAAAlAAAAUkU6IFB1YmxpYyBBY2Nlc3MgdG8gTm9uLVByb2ZpdCBJbmZvAAAAAAIBcQABAAAA FgAAAAG+BUdK2zgtyIFxBxHSlQbaFUlR6EgAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAU AAAAd2R1cmhhbUBzcHJ5bmV0LmNvbQADAAYQx4Z8vwMABxA2BAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAU1RPUFNF TkRJTkdNRUUtTUFJTC0tLS0tT1JJR0lOQUxNRVNTQUdFLS0tLS1GUk9NOktZTVNNSVRIQE1JQ1JP Tk5FVFNNVFA6S1lNU01JVEhATUlDUk9OTkVUU0VOVDpGUklEQQAAAAACAQkQAQAAABEFAAANBQAA KgcAAExaRnV8dTCmAwAKAHJjcGcxMjUWMgD4C2BuDhAwMzOdAfcgAqQD4wIAY2gKwOBzZXQwIAcT AoMAUKEQdnBycTIRdn0KgNkIyCA7CW8OMDUCgAqB7HVjAFALA2MSEgvEBgCQdG9wIBEwbmQLgMRn IAeAIGUtAMADET4hGMAKogqECoQLMGxpPDM2AUAWkAFAEsBvdIUFkHQSBDE2IC0bsnpPBRBnC4AH QAXQB5Bz/GFnGFAbshj2GsQakQsTwRrGaS0xNDQBQBoQODE4MAFADNAfU2IgqkYDYToMg2IRYGsG wMBzbWl0aEAhsAUACQIgLm4RQCBbU03YVFA6IX8RQF0Y9SCADwZgAjAg5yCgaWRheUgsIE8bAG9i BJAghDMwJhAxOTk4JuBIMTo1EWBQTSRXVIJvIOdUaGVvcxdwpGh5F0F1ZCmATAQAYxsQJGd1Ymoa 8SDnUlxlOieQKuAaEGMRcGM6YxyhIBdgB7ACIC1Q5wNgHyAFQEluAhAdXx5qtxoUC7YZA0QpMAQg dxrCkyDgGQk+WQhgIGMDkU8c4AVAA1AJ4CBwBJBztHVhAJB2GDApEGwXgP0AcGQ0kAQQKhEAcCyg M0G7A3AtwFIF8CzxAMBrGDAXAHApgAGQeDIlZXhlFm0FMQWwZwBwaXphXHRpAiAs4iZwIAlwc25w AiA0AyzxcCwkCXBx/wpQKiAEIAIQBcAh0BgwC4DtLfY+B0AJcGEp0QuAOfb2ZANxC4AuMcsgojFQ EQD5LbEgdRfAM7E1MTTANZPueQhhM5ApMHQmECHQBAD/F5AIYBfABCAaEDZyQJM0Ev5lNCACMD21 MRAHkTaiLYDpQPRsZRwwcwtgOHMLgD5jCkABADSRN+A0IHJ2ZwiQB+BEAWp1KiA+1GG5GPQibi0x GrEtkSI37P9BITyxBbAEgSziOpAHQAaQ+Hk/ICjyCXA0kEshLKDbACALcWwpgAOBeRj0CcD1CGBw MUFoSjc0kwEAETDvRiA5sUESNuEtN4U1ISmwpHM7NEBvd0KxciYQ/T8wZhiCF2AY9BEwNDFQUL8n kD8BCAAmcTrQAiAnBCB6YynAZEwBBaABIAngLb5rRNEQ8DfhF5AQ8G8G8H9NIg3gVHBLUhLANBA4 YGX7GPQ0oS8FsQlwGhAcMAhg/0lzHFApsEshA4Ec0SziCfBcam82wUESM6FrJhBi/nUFQDtBKYAz 0FchKYA9UP09u0EXwCYQNqJH2DMATOL1VTViB0BrQ6EFQBEARjB/F/Es8QlwNCAcYUa4O0FpenIY 9GZBc1BgAjA683P5TVB1bDTAMtBGwE6iM4H/F3FdcUQBAhBAcQlxM0ALYP5nQ6I0wWQSYeAX4Udl B2D2bEhhAJBnRSI7MyGwNLF3RAMzgSwjLkrQXAE/IWG7NcAHQHcl8EExRsBwDeC/V3MtgBj0N/pN I2KBIhLAfweQJdAk8UhwCrE60UERL/9LAV6BYHA34GaUa/JoEG5R+z27GPRLBsBuvxlFHScykr9L UwhwCXACMEwBM9BiBPLfJnA0wCzxO0EpMC0DIDPwASvwV0RVUkhBTQBAU1BSWU5FVFguQ08ntSoC IHTwTD8boAMwFpJiEDRAAkBwOswvLxoQKiAudiJxImLsLz8k8QSQPXQVGmNiEP8wpShQP0FzNxeT QgECYABw/msYQBhzLPFEgF6gGFB0FcAtNTkzVUB4Cxj0BROBAH+QAAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAA AAMAgBD/////QAAHMICLUC5HBb4BQAAIMICLUC5HBb4BCwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAA A4UAAAAAAAADACCACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAtw0AAB4AIYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADguMAADACKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsA K4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAsgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUA AAAAAAADAC2ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAMIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAABiFAAAAAAAAHgBAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AQYAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAIoX ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0516.6F595F20-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 21:26:44 -0600 From: william vance durham Subject: RE: Public Access to Non-Profit Info ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0516.746443E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stop sending me e-mail !!! > From: M K Ramadoss [SMTP:ramadoss@eden.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 7:46 AM > Subject: Re: Public Access to Non-Profit Info There seems to be some fuzziness in the minds of some regarding non-profit and tax exempt organization. To clarify, between non-profit and tax exempt organizations, the classification of non-profit is usually done when the organization incorporates under the state non profit corporation act. Federal law has nothing to do with non profit issue. However, tax exempt issue is a question of whether the organization has to pay income and sales taxes. Federal law controls and states follow federal decision to classify an organization as tax exempt. An organization could be non profit but not tax exempt. Once tax exempt, usually states exempt the organization from state income tax, property tax, franchise tax as well as sales tax on items it buys for its tax exempt use. The other fringe benefit is the lower postage rates tax exempts pay on bulk mailing. In addition, for tax purposes contributions only to a tax exempt organization may be deductible. BTW, there are several categories of tax exempts and only to contributions to some of them are deductible. Also, another key factor in granting tax exempt status is what happens when the organization is dissolved. The residual assets has to be distributed to the state or other tax exempt organization in a similar category. Organizations which are incorporated in a foreign country cannot get tax exempt status in this country. Nor can they receive the assets from a US tax exempt organization when the latter dissolves. There are some foreign organizations such as TS, Adyar which are included in the tax exempt list, which appears to have happened by mistake when old organizations were grand fathered when Income Tax law was originally enacted. (The proposed bylaws change will be objected to by IRS as TSA assets in the event of dissolution can end up in control of an organization which is in a foreign country.) In understanding tax law, think of Uncle Sam as your financial partner. When any income is received, Uncle Sam get his share. When you get a tax break Uncle Sam chips in his share. So when you contribute to a tax exempt deductible contribution, Uncle Sam is your partner. 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Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 21:28:47 -0600 From: william vance durham Subject: RE: statements in SECRET DOCTRINE -- Sorry some corrections detected -- now corrected ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0516.7AAE1140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stop sending me e-mail !!! > From: W. Dallas TenBroeck [SMTP:dalval@nwc.net] > Sent: Saturday, October 31, 1998 7:24 PM > Subject: RE: statements in SECRET DOCTRINE -- Sorry some corrections detected -- now corrected Oct 31st 1998 This is the corrected version: Sorry ! Dallas Oct 30th 1998 >Quotations from the SECRET DOCTRINE & Isis Unveiled: "...every theology, from the earliest and oldest down to the latest, has sprung not only from a common source of abstract beliefs, but from one universal esoteric, or "Mystery" language...The great archaic system known from prehistoric ages as the sacred Wisdom Science...can be traced in every old as well as in every new religion, had, and still has, its universal language...the language of the Hierophants, which has seven "dialects"...each referring...to one of the seven mysteries of Nature. Each had its own symbolism...the words of that mystery language signified the same thing to each man of whatever nationality" SD I 310 "It is maintained that INDIA...including its ancient boundaries is the only country in the world which still has among her sons adepts, who have the knowledge of all the seven sub-systems and the keys to the entire system. [ astronomical, geometrical, numerical, physiological, anthropological, psychic, alchemical ]." SD I 311 "...the Rishis were the septiform presentations 1) of the noumena of the intelligent Powers of nature; 2) of Cosmic Forces; 3) of celestial bodies; 4) of gods or Dhyan Chohans; 5) of psychic and spiritual powers: 6) of divine kings on earth (or the incarnations of the gods); and 7) of terrestrial heroes or men. The knowledge of how to discern among thee seven forms the one that is meant, belonged at all times to the initiates..." SD II 765 "The seven fundamental transformations of the globes or heavenly spheres, or rather their constituent particles of matter, is described as follows: 1) the homogeneous; 2) the aeriform and radiant (gaseous; 3) Curd-like (nebulous); 4) Atomic, Ethereal (beginning of motion, hence of differentiation); 5) Germinal, fiery, (differentiated, but composed of the germs only of the Elements, in their earliest states, they having seven states, when completely developed on our earth); 6) Four-fold, vapory (the future Earth); 7) Cold and depending (on the Sun for life and light)." SD I 295-6fn. "...it is on this "knowledge" that the programme of the MYSTERIES and of the series of Initiations was based: thence, the construction of the Pyramids the everlasting record and the indestructible symbol of these Mysteries and Initiations on Earth, as the courses of stars are in the Heaven. The cycle of Initiation was a reproduction in miniature of that great series of Cosmic changes to which astronomers have given the name of tropical or sidereal year. Just as, at the close of the cycle of the sidereal year [ 25,868 years ], the heavenly bodies return to the same relative positions as they occupied at its outset, so at the close of the cycle of Initiation the inner man regained the pristine state of divine purity and knowledge from which he set out on his cycle of terrestrial incarnations." SD I 314 "Every old religion is but a chapter or two of the entire volume of archaic primeval mysteries--Eastern Occultism alone being able to boast that it is in possession of the full secret, with its seven keys." SD I 318 "...the evolution and correlation of the mysteries of Kosmos, of its growth and development--spiritual and physical, abstract and concrete--were first recorded in geometrical changes of shape. Every Cosmogony began with a circle, a point, a triangle and a cube, up to number 9, when it was synthesized by the first line and a circle--the Pythagorean mystic Decade, the sum of all, involving and expressing the mysteries of the entire Kosmos; recorded a hundred times more fully in the Hindu system, for him who can understand its mystic language. The numbers 3 and 4, in their blending of 7, as those of 5, 6, 9, and 10, are the very corner- stone of Occult Cosmogonies." SD I 321 "The corner-stone of magic is an intimate practical knowledge of magnetism and electricity, their qualities, correlatons, and potencies. Especially necessary is a familiarity with their effects in and upon the animal kingdom and man...To sum up all in a few words, MAGIC is spiritual WISDOM; nature the material ally, pupil and servant of the magician. One common vital principle pervades all things and this is controllable by the perfected human will...[The adept] cannot control the immortal spirit of any human being, living or dead, for all such spirits are alike sparks of the Divine Essence, and not subject to any foreign domination." Isis Unveiled II 589-90 -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. 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Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 21:47:49 -0600 From: william vance durham Subject: RE: Vnet moves all Lists to Lyris (software change) ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE0518.2A9F75C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: John E Mead [SMTP:jmead@InfoAve.Net] > Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 10:50 AM > Subject: Vnet moves all Lists to Lyris (software change) hi - Vnet has converted all of its discussion-lists to use Lyris vs Listproc (just a software change only) the only item that has really changed (immediately visible) is that the lists addresses (for all vnet discussion lists) is now listname@list.vnet.net (rather than listname@vnet.net). 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Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 9:00 From: Theosophy Study List digest [theos-l@list.vnet.net] Subject: theos-l digest: October 28, 1998 Theosophy Study List Digest for Wednesday, October 28, 1998. 1. Re: theos-l digest: October 27, 1998 2. Mind and Memory 3. The Binary Soul Hypothesis 4. DivisionTheory: The Binary Soul Hypothesis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 01:18:33 EST From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: theos-l digest: October 27, 1998 Reading all the discussions recently about what is going on in the TSA has given me food for thought. Tonight, as luck (synchronicity?) would have it, I was de-cluttering and found a letter from my grandmother (Virginia G. Hanson, formerly a very involved member of the TSA and a great human being, IMHO). The letter is dated July 31, 1987, over ten years ago, and apparently addresses some questions I had about the Society at that time. Because I have no first-hand knowledge of the facts, I thought I would simply quote here what she said in 1987. I found it amazing that she addressed some of the same issues that are being discussed in 1998, and I submit the following as food for thought only: "[S]everal groups split off from the parent society. The Society has always (and still does) attract(ed) rather strong-minded people, sometimes the personally ambitious, sometimes persons interested primarily in phenomena - an interest which the Society does *not* encourage. These people usually leave rather soon. Sometimes I think the "splittings off" were good, since they give opportunity for the presentation of different points of view. Unfortunately, some of the groups which left the parent society and formed separate organizations are still disturbed over the issues which caused the divisions, and are sometimes very critical of what they call the "Adyar Society." This feeling does not exist in the Adyar Society; I have never seen anything in its literature or publications even remotely critical of the other groups, but members of these groups continue to "pick at" the parent society. Nevertheless, on a personal basis, many of us have some very good friends among them. A few years ago, here at Krotona [in Ojai, California], we had a full day meeting of *all* the groups and each had an opportunity to present its particular point of view. It was most interesting and a very warm and friendly occasion. I see no reason why there should be any necessity to "reunite" administratively; what *is* important is the realization that all are working toward the same end, which is to make the theosophical world view available to those who are interested. There are no real differences in the world view. Some later leaders of the parent society wrote somewhat simplified versions of Theosophy, perhaps also more systematically presented then in "The Secret Doctrine," and some of the so-called "splinter groups" took vehement objections to them. A lot of personality things got mixed up in this too. But "The Secret Doctrine" remains the primary text and has never gone out of print. I have read quite a lot of the so-called "neo-Theosophy" and can see that it has helped many to get a glimmering of what it is all about. I do not denigrate it, but I no longer read it." Hope this helps in some way. Christine Hanson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:34:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Mind and Memory This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE0254.1ED77E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [DALLAS:] >That does not make sense to my logic -- I know firmly that=20 >neither you nor I are "illusions" although our forms are in=20 >constant alteration -- the non-physical MIND through memory=20 >retains identity -- or is this "off-base ?" It is off base, and it isn't. Mind does tend to retain memory, and because of memory over time, we like to think we have a real and concrete self or ego or personality.=20 You say that you know "firmly" that we are not illusions, and yet I would submit that we are indeed illusions and nothing more. The basic "atoms" or "substance" that comprise our being is=20 emptiness in the Mahayana sense. What happens to ego when we lose our memory as in amnesia? What happens to ego when we dream? Now, I believe that when we dream we are focusing on the astral or mental planes. So, memory on those planes is flakey or tenuous at best and thus our sense of identity is also. Just as our physical body feels real and concrete, so our ego or personality. But both change constantly, and have no reality other than in a very relative sense. When we die, only the "aroma" of the past life continues. All the "real" details dissipate into their true nature which is emptiness. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE0254.1ED77E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
[DALLAS:]
>That does not make sense to my logic -- I know = firmly that=20
>neither you nor I are "illusions" although our = forms are in=20
>constant alteration -- the non-physical MIND through memory =
>retains identity -- or is this "off-base=20 ?"
 
It is off base, and it isn't. Mind does tend to retain=20 memory,
and because of memory over time, we like to think we = have=20 a
real=20 and concrete self or ego or personality.
 
You=20 say that you know "firmly" that we are not illusions, and=20 yet
I=20 would submit that we are indeed illusions and nothing = more.
The=20 basic "atoms" or "substance" that comprise our being = is=20
emptiness in the Mahayana sense. What happens to ego=20 when
we lose our memory as in amnesia? What happens to = ego
when we dream? Now, I believe that when we dream we are
focusing on the astral or mental planes. So, memory on those
planes is flakey or tenuous at best and thus our sense of
identity is also. Just as our physical body feels real and = concrete,
so our ego or personality. But both change constantly, and = have
no reality other than in a very relative sense. When we die,
only the "aroma" of the past life continues. All the=20 "real" details
dissipate into their true = nature which is=20 emptiness.
 
Jerry S.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE0254.1ED77E20-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:20:17 -0600 From: Peter Novak Subject: The Binary Soul Hypothesis Matthew Lamoreux wrote: > ...this "dualistic nature of consciousness" thing...has...a lot to do > with dividing something that you're trying to understand the > complexity of the whole of. Exactly. When one wishes to understand something that has complexity, something which is "complex", or multi-parted, rather than "simple", or single-parted, one must examine each of those parts with hopes of perceiving how those different parts interact with each other, how they function together to form the whole they constitute. Similarly, when I want to comprehend how an automobile engine works, I must first identify and distinguish between the carburetor and the spark plugs. In the same way, if one wishes to comprehend the human psyche, one must recognize all the different parts constituting that psyche. Even though the psyche does comprise a unique and autonomous whole, it is nonetheless possible to distinguish, within it, its component parts. These separate parts, and how they interact, can be distinguished, and indeed this is what the science of psychology has been working on for the last 100 years. I find it impossible to overlook the implications of the fact that ancient cultures all over the globe once subscribed to a belief in a binary soul; even the West's own JudeoChristian heritage reflects this in its two different, almost-but-not-quite identical terms soul" and "spirit". From ancient Egypt, Greece, Persia, India, and China, to Hawaii to Alaska to Australia to Central America, cultures all over the world, time and time again, somehow arrived at virtually identical conclusions, finding reason to believe that people possess not one, but two souls, always describing those two souls in strikingly similar ways. I find it so much more than stunning to consider the implications of the fact that our own modern science is now preaching virtually the same story, even down to describing the two halves of the psyche the same way those ancient cultures did their two souls. Matthew: > ...Peter says it's possible that > "consciousness" is so divided that at some point in the > biological process it splits into two things? Not exactly, but close. I am suggesting (1) that consciousness is already partially divided in most people, and (2) that the degree of alienation between the two halves of the psyche can change. It can get worse. It can also get better. I am suggesting that if the division between the two halves of one's psyche is allowed to get worse and worse, one might find that, after death, there is nothing left to hold them together. Not to say exactly that they physically divide from one another, for in fact after death there is by definition nothing physical to speak of at all. But I am suggesting that after death the two halves may, if no bridge connecting them has been forged during life, thereafter function entirely independently of one another. Right Brain/Left Brain research has already provided something of a precedent for this - when the bit of matter connected the two hemispheres is lost, the two corresponding halves of the psyche do appear to operate as separate, independent, and autonomous consciousnesses. Matthew: > Whenever I am > confronted with this kind Zoroastrian duality model the first > thing that comes to mind is, "how can we ever really understand > our own consciousness as long as our models insist on dividing > it into factions?" Would you try to understand a car engine without first distinguishing between the carburetor and the spark plugs? Or try to understand sex without first getting a handle on the natures of and differences between and interaction between male and female? Matthew: > Can a house divided against itself solve the > riddle of the Universe? I wonder. You're right. It can't, Matthew. You've got it exactly. Only by overcoming the division, by reuniting the two halves, can the original state of the mind be regained, at which point the riddles of the universe can finally be understood and solved. Reuniting this division, I believe, is what virtually all religions originally tried to achieve. I suggest that the divided, binary state of the psyche is, was, a mistake (the FIRST mistake), and ultimately it is an illusion (Freud agreed with this; he did not believe that the two-leveled, binary- parted psyche that he uncovered was natural. He believed that its existence was evidence of improper functioning. To Freud, the human mind looked fractured. Damaged. Ill. A mistake.) I believe this division to ultimately be pure illusion. Ultimately the psyche is "one". But it can delude itself into experiencing itself as divided, and a powerful and enduring illusion it is, one I believe to be fully capable of keeping humanity in its grasp both during life and in the afterlife. DivisionTheory thus merely suggests that death is no panacea, that however divided we are in life, death will not instantly cure us of that condition. On the contrary, if there is anything we can observe about death, it is that death tends to disintegrate a thing into its separate component parts. If one is, in life, partially divided into two parts, if there is anything we know about what death does, it's that death will cause any weak connections to deteriorate further. Many people spend much of their lives widening the gaps between their conscious and unconscious minds. The unconscious is that part of the psyche that holds our moral awareness, our sense of right and wrong. When we say to others, "I just knew in my heart that it was the right (or wrong) thing to do", it was the quiet voice of one's own unconscious that one referred to. But all too often, when that inner voice speaks, we ignore it, or argue with it, or rationalize away its judgments. Thus we push away the voice of our own souls, our own inner unconscious minds. And the more we dismiss and reject the voice of the unconscious soul, the more alienated we become from it, and the wider the gap becomes (to the point that modern man, such as this group, often resort to seeking out extraordinary spiritual practices just to learn how to listen to his own soul again. By reconnecting the two halves (or, if you will, by overcoming the illusion of division) DivisionTheory suggests, one would regain, rediscover his original divine state as one of the "sons of God, achieving "enlightenment" or ‘salvation' or what-have-you (as per "The Lord is One"). But so long as we remain divided, even if only from our own perspective, that divine perspective, and the power that goes with it, would remain lost to us. The premise of DivisionTheory is based on two hypotheses: (1) the binary soul hypothesis, and (2) the immortality hypothesis. DivisionTheory suggests that both hypotheses are correct. When you add these two hypotheses together, you come up with a psyche that splits apart at death, with one half reincarnating, and the other half becoming trapped in a fixed, self-created dreamworld reality. There are, as near as I can figure, only three paths to challenge DivisionTheory: (1) challenging the binary soul hypothesis (2) challenging the immortality hypothesis, or (3) challenging the idea that adding these two would result in the conscious experiencing a reincarnation-like afterlife, and the unconscious would experience a dreamworld-like afterlife. I find, to my continuous amazement, that the first challenge is the most often attempted. My research taught me that there was once something of a consensus around the world regarding life-after-death beliefs. Many people on many continents, islands, and nations believed essentially the same thing - that human beings possessed a binary soul that could and often did divide apart at death. About a century ago, Freud and Jung rocked the world with a similar report - that human beings have not one, but two levels to their psyches. This teaching, of a binary psyche, was taught for a long time, but then, decades ago, fell into academic disfavor. But new research has recently breathed new life into this ancient concept that returns time and again to knock on science's door. In the 80's, neurological research revealed the Right Brain/Left Brain dichotomy of the brain, suggesting a true binary construction of the human psyche. More recently still, a new book by Fredric Schiffer, MD, a psychiatrist on the faculty of Harvard Medical School, suggests that the scientific unpopularity of the binary mind theory may be dissolving. Schiffer's book is titled "Of Two Minds: The Revolutionary Science of Dual-Brain Psychology". The jacket of his book reads: "Dr. Schiffer rivals Freud in his revolutionary theories on understanding the human psyche. He convincingly portrays the workings of two autonomous minds in one consciousness." And from there to DivisionTheory, the only step is the question "What would happen to those two sides of the mind if they both survived physical death, but could no longer work in unison after leaving the body. In such a scenario, the innate characteristics of one half of the psyche would doom it to become trapped in a self-created dreamworld very much like the classic visions of the netherworld, while the other half of the psyche would lose its memory but otherwise remain free to go on to new experiences, much like the tradition of reincarnation. - Peter Novak From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:21:57 -0600 From: Peter Novak Subject: DivisionTheory: The Binary Soul Hypothesis Matthew Lamoreux wrote: > [Life after death reports] rely on data collected by subjective means from people > in a state of consciousness whose testimony would not be allowed in any > court in the world.... > These are people in severe trauma or an otherwise "altered state", > unconscious or deeply engrossed in the subconscious.... Consciousness is comprised of both the objective and subjective. If you have one without the other, there can be no such thing as self-aware consciousness. From the Eastern wisdom tradition of the eternal dance of "Yin and Yang" to ancient Jewish literature about "soul and spirit" to the scientific discovery of the conscious and unconscious to the colloquial folk wisdom of the head and heart to the universal attraction/repulsion of males and females, this fundamental duality is reflected endlessly in human culture. Unfortunately, one half of this duality commonly represses the other, and this repression also is evident in its endless cultural reflections. But the two halves of the human brain are mirror images of one another, equal in size, value, and necessity of function. This, I believe, reflects the divine truth of the true nature of this binary system - that its two parts are perfect and equal partners. If so, it would then be a mistake (the first mistake, the only mistake) to dismiss the testimony of the unconscious simply because it IS testimony from the unconscious. ...there is a vast outer realm and an equally vast inner realm; between these two stands a man, facing now one and now the other, and according to his mood or disposition, taking the one for the absolute truth by denying or sacrificing the other. - Jung A common story, DivisionTheory, was once being repeated around the globe, down through history, by peoples isolated in every conceivable cultural way. To my way of thinking, when you find hoards of people all reporting the same story, who could not have heard the story from one another, they are all probably reporting something with autonomous objective reality independent of its reporters. The courts of the world refusing to acknowledge the testimony of the unconscious is just like courts of men not granting women, or whites not blacks, the right to be heard. It is just like science's dismissal of religion and art. It is the rich dismissing the poor, the day dismissing the night, summer dismissing winter, intellect dismissing emotion, logic dismissing intuition, left brain dismissing right brain, form dismissing substance, objective dismissing subjective, science dismissing art, totalitarianism dismissing freedom, sex dismissing love, law & order dismissing right & wrong, prosecution dismissing defense, West dismissing East, corporation dismissing individual, machine dismissing human, security dismissing opportunity, Republican dismissing Democrat, state dismissing church, reason dismissing faith, urban dismissing rural, IBM dismissing Apple, and on and on. Matthew stated: > ...to rely on historical "commonalties" in > "otherworld stories" is to ignore the fact that in the otherworld continuum > the architecture of heaven and hell looks more psychological and rife with > consciousness schisms... That's it exactly, Matthew. The otherworld IS psychological. The scientific characteristics of the psyche tie in so perfectly with the classic details about the various afterlife traditions that it seems likely that the psyche's own innate characteristics may themselves actually PRODUCE the afterlife experience. The modern discoveries of the characteristic functions of the two sides of the psyche account PERFECTLY for the reports of the afterlife that have been reported, for millennia, in every part of the world. It is the perfect example of the idea that "what you are will produce your experience". Matthew asserted: > The dualistic model of heaven and hell speaks more to the > split psychology of an organisms in pathological denial than an explanation > of the relationship of consciousness to "un" consciousness. The relationship of (not "consciousness" but rather) the conscious mind to (not "unconsciousness" but rather) the unconscious mind IS a split psyche, and this split in our psyches IS the direct and immediate result of pathological denial : the barrier between the conscious and unconscious, Freud taught, is composed entirely of "resistence" itself. The conscious mind, with its innate free will, actively represses, denies, and ignores the unconscious, persistently pushing the input from the unconscious back down out of our conscious awareness. Frank DeMarco had written: > >Furthermore in this century, psychoanalysis and analytical psychology have > >(re)discovered the subconscious mind. > Matthew retorted: > Ok...now you're not being entirely accurate Frank. They still don't know > what it is or where it is. This is true. Science has not yet truly adequately defined the full natures of the conscious and unconscious. I doubt it ever will, as I am convinced that these two inner components are our divine souls and spirits, and as such they are each infinite, meaning, among other things, that they can never been fully defined. However, science, while it cannot yet say it knows everything about them, can certainly assure us that it has a least learned a few things about the conscious and unconscious. And "these few things", these most basis of characteristics, the first and most apparent to be recognized, are perfect matches with both (1) humanity's ancient shared tradition of dual souls, and (2) humanity's 3 most common afterlife reports : sleepwalking ghosts, a dreamworld/netherworld, and reincarnation. Frank had explained: > >Peter one day thought: Suppose that at death the conscious mind goes one > > way and the subconscious mind goes another? > Matthew replied: > For some people that does happen..around tax time. I think this happens daily, perhaps hourly, perhaps even constantly, in most of us. We are so comfortable with pushing away the feelings, emotions, judgments, guilts, that rise up from the depths of our unconscious souls. Frank: > >Consciousness conveys thought, will, purpose and input from outside. > Matthew: > Only as it is interpreted to us by the unconscious which is the first > consciousness that evaluates the environment. Yes, exactly. In life, the conscious and unconscious work together, as a team. The unconscious considers, reflects, interprets our objective experience. The conscious mind would be crippled without it. In addition to having no memory, it would have no reference of perspective, no context in which to understand its environment. A disembodied conscious mind stripped of its unconscious would still possess free will, but would not have the slightest clue what to do with it; it would remember nothing including its own identity, would feel no emotion whatsoever, and would see nothing but chaos around it. Such a state has repeatedly been reported by people who have been hypnotically regressed to a point in time in-between lives. Frank had reported: > >The subconscious contains memories and emotions. > To which Matthew responded: > And uses these to evaluate and define meaning that it bubbles up into > consciousness. This information comes not only from historical data which > lives inside us (not as the actual event but a construct) , but analog data > occurring in the environment right now. Right. And without that input from the unconscious, lives contain no meaning. Reports of the time spent in-between lives by disembodied spirits also suggest a period devoid of meaning. Science repeatedly reminds us that it can tell us "what is", but not "what should be". It takes the testimony from the unconscious for that, but unfortunately the courts of the land are constitutionally prejudiced against the testimony of the unconscious. Matthew asked: > Why...would death split anything apart beyond the visible fact that it takes > those we love away from us? Why would it be even more devastating than that? What else is death if not division? We are divided in life; do you expect this division to miraculously be healed at the moment of death? More likely it will get worse than better; our own actions in life all-too-often aggravate the division within us. We can and regularly do damage our own integrity, becoming fractured, splintered, ripped apart. We come already born with two halves, but in life we run the risk of moving from distinguishing between them to disassociation between them. In life, the rule is "multiply". Is not death the opposite of life? If we have spent most of our lives splitting our own psyches apart, pushing away the input of the soul from the spirit, if anything this behavior pattern could be expected to continue after death. What happens if the conscious mind's habitual pushing away of the unconscious is limited by the physical body? If so, as soon as the body is out of the picture, the conscious would seem to suddenly get stronger, and its pressure pushing away against its already-weak partner, the unconscious soul, that much more effective. Frank lamented: > No wonder death is so scary. Look at all the power we give it. We can't just > sleep and become one with time and space and energy, we have to be stuck > with our own stupid sensory based tunnel vision...all through Eternity. We > have to have "places to go" otherwise death doesn't make sense. Anyone can make up any number of stories about what happens after we die, but no one in his right mind would then believe that those just-created stories necessarily have any resemblance to the true facts of the situation. In fact there is a sizable body of reports about the afterlife, a body of fairly consistent reports which is coming, and indeed has always come, from every corner of the globe. Those reports consistently fall into the following categories: (1) ghosthood (2) a dreamlike netherworld (3) reincarnation. And it has now been discovered that the human psyche possesses the very characteristics necessary to reproduce each of these reported experiences. Well, all the characteristics save one - immortality. But when you know that the formula A + B = C is true, as in A (the characteristics of the psyche) + B (separate survival after death) = C (reports of ghosts, netherworlds, and reincarnation) And you have A and C, my math tells me that you can deduce that B also exists. Matthew wrote: > And to top > it all off, death is going to punish us or reward us based on how good or > bad we are (like the Universe cares about good or bad anyway? I mean, what > good or bad thing is ever going to help or hurt it? ) and THEN make us do > this crap all over again, not once by many, many times in a Karmic circle. No. This is one of the things I find so satisfying about DivisionTheory. The universe doesn't punish us at all. The universe is, as they say, out of the loop. The characteristics of the psyche would, all by themselves, produce the afterlife experience. The soul would, in effect, automatically judge itself, and then automatically pronounce and execute sentence upon itself, automatically sending itself to whatever heavenly or hellish experiences it feels, based on its own inner value system, that it deserves. Matthew demanded: > Arrrgh! When I die, leave me alone and let me drift off into oblivion being > a part of everything and nothing and what more am I going to learn by doing > more stupid "people tricks". I think I may have the common confusion of > Humanity down pat after the first revolution of the Wheel but what a waste > of Time, Space and Humanity to do it again and again. We will all surely leave one another alone. The question is, will your own unconscious leave itself alone? Or will your own memories rise up to be compared with your own sense of right and wrong? Will this comparison fill the full screen of your awareness? Will it be your whole experience? Will you react emotionally to this comparison? If the conscious splits off, yes. Matthew pointed out: > [Reincarnating without remembering] sort of goes the > way of people housebreaking a dog by rubbing its nose in its own poop. So > what? It's poop, its the dog's, so what? The only time repetition of a > mistake works is if you were doing it wrong in the first place and the > mistake was the right way, otherwise that sort of teaching needs to stay > with public education, popular religions and parenting...not Universal > Consciousness. It certainly IS a waste of time doing it all over and over again. The early Christian Gnostics taught this - that people reincarnate, but all for naught - we are not, as New-Agers prefer to believe, evolving spiritually through reincarnation. This comes from the mistaken and unfounded assumption that the system, as it is now, is the way it was designed to be, that everything is working properly. The JudeoChristian tradition violently disagrees with this belief, reminding us of a long-ago "Fall" of man, after which the original divine nature of the order of things was disrupted and damaged. In short, the system is now broken. If it is broken, then we could indeed be reincarnating over and over again, getting nowhere, like a dumb animal, as the early Christians taught: Jesus said, "The Kingdom of the Father is like a certain woman who was carrying a jar full of meal. While she was walking on a road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her on the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set down the jar and found it empty." - The Gospel of Thomas An ass which turns a millstone did a hundred miles walking. When it was loosed it found that it was still in the same place. There are men who make many journeys [lifetimes], but make no progress towards a destination. When evening [death] came upon them, they saw neither city nor village, neither creation nor nature, power nor angel [they were in the isolation of the soul's afterlife]. In vain have the poor wretches labored. - The Gospel of Philip Matthew shared: > This is what bothers me the most about this Frank. Even after death, do we > think the Universe wants to punish the good and the bad and the ugly like it > could really give a damn if you cheated on your taxes or your wife or kicked > your dog? Only we care about that...and only we would pack that into an > after life... Exactly. So if it is WE ourselves who ultimately create our own afterlife experience, but all automatically, not intentionally doing so, then we indeed ought to watch out for an afterlife which "punishes the good and the bad and the ugly [and gives] a damn if you cheated on your taxes or your wife or kicked your dog" WE give a damn, at least we do deep down inside, and if it's what's down inside that creates our afterlife experience for us, then we'd better "give a damn" NOW about just what it is we DO have down inside before we die and we only find out then. - Peter Novak --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: EDITOR@THEOSOPHY.COM List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-530Y@list.vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 9:00 From: Theosophy Study List digest [theos-l@list.vnet.net] Subject: theos-l digest: October 27, 1998 Theosophy Study List Digest for Tuesday, October 27, 1998. 1. Re: Rejection of msgs From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 21:46:57 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Rejection of msgs Here is a post from ti-l of some interest. When the quoted part is more than 20 lines, it got rejected. I am posting it by deleting the >> which indicated the quoted portion. mkr ============================= At 09:37 PM 10/27/1998 -0500, you wrote: Alan, you will find that if you quote more than twenty lines from a previous message your post to the list is returned to you. I had to repost a message three times trying to get it right the other day. Lyris is a bitch... she needs to be housebroken... Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ --- You are currently subscribed to ti-l as: RAMADOSS@EDEN.COM List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=ti-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ti-l-1457H@list.vnet.net --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: EDITOR@THEOSOPHY.COM List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-530Y@list.vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sunday, October 25, 1998 8:00 From: Theosophy Study List digest [theos-l@list.vnet.net] Subject: theos-l digest: October 25, 1998 Theosophy Study List Digest for Sunday, October 25, 1998. 1. Quotations from Theosophical Sources 2. An interesting observation 3. Vnet moves all Lists to Lyris (software change) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 07:03:44 -0500 (EST) From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Quotations from Theosophical Sources Oct 25th 1998 Theosophy offers some ideas: "Some years ago the Adepts wrote and said to H.P.B. and to several persons that more help could be given to the movement in America because the fact of their existence was not concealed from motives of either fear or doubt...Occult help from Masters requires a channel just as much as any other help does...The persons to be acted on must take part in making the channel or line for the force to act, for if we will not have it, they cannot give it. if we look over the work we find wherever the members boldly avow their belief and are not afraid to speak of this high ideal, the interest in Theosophy is awake, the work goes on, the people are benefited. ... This joined to an intelligent declaration of belief in the great initiation of the human race will lead to results of magnitude, will call out the forces behind it, [and] will prevail..." MAHATMAS AS IDEAL AND FACTS, "Path" March 1893 == W.Q.Judge Articles II pp. 41-2 "...no worker, however feeble or insignificant is outside the range of Master's eye and help." == W.Q.Judge Articles, II p. 47. "A good man can live under any form of government or social order. What we should strive to do is to increase that toleration for every one which alone will open up men's minds to the truth... [the attitude of the Society] should be neutral to any form or method, but not neutral as to the general doctrines of justice and Universal Brotherhood. The latter doctrine supports all applications of justice... The function of the T.S. is to give all its members aspiration to high ideals; to furnish a free, tolerant platform where all men may assemble if they wish." THE SOCIETY AND REFORMS, "Path," April 1894. == W.Q.Judge Articles, Vol. II, p. 182-3. "Under the Doctrines of Theosophy is one fundamental proposition, namely, "the essential Unity of all life and being." Manifestation of life is differentiation of this unity, the purpose of differentiation is evolution, and the destiny of evolution is the return of all manifestation into its source and original unity... This universal truth [is] the essential unity of all life and being throughout nature... Theosophy is not a new invention but the essential underlying truth of all philosophies; it is a body of doctrine in philosophy, science, and ethics, principally derived from the "Eastern sacred Theories," which were worked out by a brotherhood of devotees and initiates who used every method of scientific investigation known to us, as well as their own highly developed practices of observation, experiment, concentration, and meditation to reach the truth... this slowly accumulating body of facts, furnished the basis for these great universal doctrines, and the psychic development of these devotees and students gave them great power over nature and insight into the mystic side of the universe and man... portions of the doctrines are given out from time to time, such as may be safely trusted to an advancing age, because to penetrate into the mystery of nature requires purity and perfection, and this final perfection is not a gift to be expected from without, but is to be worked for by those who desire it.... Our civilization has mainly occupied itself with material and intellectual progress, refusing to even recognize the superior faculties of intuition and man's capability of spiritual culture. These higher faculties have been allowed to remain dormant during the race for material aggrandizement and personal recognition.... A wider field of consciousness...which lies within the capability of development in every individual, that on the spiritual plane there is a spiritual unity, a universal brotherhood of mankind, and on that plane of being there is no separateness from homogeneous existence; and further that no permanent progress is possible through fostering the illusion of separateness, and that man's true duty at all times and in all circumstances is...the preservation of harmony around him. ... the spiritual unity of mankind is the basis of our moral life.... The interdependence of everything suggests the unity of all. ... this essential unity of all being, however, becomes only realizable in the ratio in which consciousness on a higher plane is awakened [which considers that] there is no separation in reality... " Condensed from THEOSOPHY AND THE T.S. "Path," December 1890. == W.Q.Judge Articles Vol. 11, pp. 197-202 "The work and influence of a Branch hinge upon the knowledge of theosophical doctrine, upon the motives, ideas, and ideals of the members, and so we have to consider what is the knowledge required and what should be the aims, ideas and ideals of those who form and are to work in a Branch......Each Branch is separately responsible for its own actions, and yet every one is helped or injured by every other. These reciprocating influences work on the real though unseen plane where every man is dynamically united to every fellow man. ... every individual, by eliminating the desire to get knowledge for himself, will thereby make the Branch as a whole open and porous to the unseen but real and powerful influences managed from behind the scenes by the great personages who have as part of their work in the world the theosophic movement, and who are constantly at work among us for the purpose of aiding those who are sincere and unselfish.... There is a mysterious power in the doctrines of karma and reincarnation which at last forces them up those who take them up for study. It is due to the fact that the ego is itself the experiencer of rebirth, and rejoices, as it were, when it finds the lower mind taking them up for study. Each person is the concentration and result of karma, and is compelled from within to believe. The ethics of theosophy as enforced an illuminated by these twin doctrines should therefore be the object of our search and promulgation. ... [ Many more practical items of advice and procedure are then offered by Mr. Judge in this valuable article. ] William Q. Judge Condensed from THEOSOPHICAL STUDY AND WORK, "Aryan Branch paper # 8 November 1890 "We should do as Buddha taught , practise, promulgate, and illustrate our doctrines. He spoke to the meanest of men with effect, although having a deeper doctrine for greater and more learned minds. Let us then, acquire the art of practical exposition of ethics based on our theories and enforced by the fact of Universal brotherhood." WHAT OUT SOCIETY NEEDS MOST, "Path," September 1892 == W.Q.Judge Articles, Vol. II, p. 217 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:00:34 -0500 (EST) From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An interesting observation The well known Soviet KGB General Kalugin writes: George Blake's conversion to communism I think was in many ways motivated by his profound belief in Christian values. You may be surprised, but the communist ideology, in its original form, borrowed a lot from early Christianity: the brotherhood of people, the brotherhood of nations, equality and universal love, and many other things. ... I think [when he was interned] in the North Korean prisoners' camp, where the Soviet officers were actively looking for potential spies, he found a good interlocutor, the man who understood his convictions, and who enhanced them by providing a model of the U.S.S.R. as a Christian country, in a sense, whose goals are very close to that of Christianity. Paradise on Earth in our lifetime -- isn't it appealing?" MKR Comment: We have Nazi's using some of the theosophical ideas to further their own ends. Now we have Communists using some of the ideas to further their own ends. Reminds me of devil quoting scriptures. ---------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:50:00 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Vnet moves all Lists to Lyris (software change) hi - Vnet has converted all of its discussion-lists to use Lyris vs Listproc (just a software change only) the only item that has really changed (immediately visible) is that the lists addresses (for all vnet discussion lists) is now listname@list.vnet.net (rather than listname@vnet.net). IMPORTANT: note that the extra word 'list' is added into the address. you can also change your own personal settings (digest etc.) through a web page (it is at the bottom of your messages). this seems to be a good change (my personal opinion). peace - john e. mead p.s. the old address will work for a month or so. but go ahead and change to the new one ASAP ;-) --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: EDITOR@THEOSOPHY.COM List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-530Y@list.vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sunday, October 25, 1998 8:00 From: Theosophical News/Events Announcements digest [theos-news@list.vnet.net] Subject: theos-news digest: October 25, 1998 Theosophical News/Events Announcements Digest for Sunday, October 25, 1998. 1. Vnet moves all Lists to Lyris (software change) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:50:00 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Vnet moves all Lists to Lyris (software change) hi - Vnet has converted all of its discussion-lists to use Lyris vs Listproc (just a software change only) the only item that has really changed (immediately visible) is that the lists addresses (for all vnet discussion lists) is now listname@list.vnet.net (rather than listname@vnet.net). IMPORTANT: note that the extra word 'list' is added into the address. you can also change your own personal settings (digest etc.) through a web page (it is at the bottom of your messages). this seems to be a good change (my personal opinion). peace - john e. mead p.s. the old address will work for a month or so. but go ahead and change to the new one ASAP ;-) --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to theos-news as: EDITOR@THEOSOPHY.COM List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-news To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-news-654Q@list.vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sunday, October 25, 1998 8:00 From: Theosophy Buds (Budding New Ideas) List digest [theos-buds@list.vnet.net] Subject: theos-buds digest: October 25, 1998 Theosophy Buds (Budding New Ideas) List Digest for Sunday, October 25, 1998. 1. Vnet moves all Lists to Lyris (software change) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:50:00 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Vnet moves all Lists to Lyris (software change) hi - Vnet has converted all of its discussion-lists to use Lyris vs Listproc (just a software change only) the only item that has really changed (immediately visible) is that the lists addresses (for all vnet discussion lists) is now listname@list.vnet.net (rather than listname@vnet.net). IMPORTANT: note that the extra word 'list' is added into the address. you can also change your own personal settings (digest etc.) through a web page (it is at the bottom of your messages). this seems to be a good change (my personal opinion). peace - john e. mead p.s. the old address will work for a month or so. but go ahead and change to the new one ASAP ;-) --- END OF DIGEST --- You are currently subscribed to theos-buds as: EDITOR@THEOSOPHY.COM List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-buds To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-buds-419V@list.vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Saturday, October 24, 1998 6:28 From: theos-l@vnet.net Subject: THEOS-L digest 1669 THEOS-L Digest 1669 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Dallas on the Theosophy Company's edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE by "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:42:07 -0700 From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" Subject: Dallas on the Theosophy Company's edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE Message-ID: <3631144F.340B@azstarnet.com> My comments are at the very end of this email. I first reproduce Dallas' comments to my last email. Daniel Caldwell W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > > Oct 22 1998 > > RE: Source of the Theosophy Company edition of > THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE > > In 1893 Mr. W. Q. Judge published in New York a reprint of this > book. I have also seen a reprint of this dated 1899. > > When he did this he made some changes as compared to the London > printed original editions of 1889 and 1893 (DONE IN RESET TYPE > AND IN A LARGER FORMAT) of that book. > > The Theosophy Company when it reprinted the VOICE in the 1920s > followed the edition that Mr. Judge had issued in 1893. It is > different from the original 1889 edition in many ways. And > although I have not verified Dr. Stokes (of the O.E.Library > Critic) claim that there are over 600 changes, it may be fair to > assume that is correct. > > I had no time this morning to thoroughly proof-read these two > books in comparison with the T Co. edition. What little checking > that I did, using the main references of differences that Dan has > so kindly provided, showed that Mr. Judge had made these in his > edition. Dan's comments insofar as they are accurate (as I have > not checked all of them) stand. > > Remains the matter of meaning. I deliberately asked this > question of Dan so that he would consider it. He has confined > himself to the physical aspect alone. Fair enough. > I append some further comments/answers in the body of his letter > reproduced below. .............................................. > > > As above stated the source of the changes has been located. > > Verbatim is verbatim. Facsimile is facsimile. As I said no > argument there. > > Meaning is of course another issue. ..................................... > > To be quite fair to readers in this matter it is my opinion that > you could include, if you will, your opinion as to alterations of > MEANING, IF THERE ARE ANY SIGNIFICANT ONES THAT YOU HAVE FOUND. ............................. > > The best course is to state from the outset exactly what is being > done. That lets the reader decide on the matter of his reference > and reliance. > > I deliberately introduced MEANING since for real students of the > VOICE that is an important issue. > > Have you written to Theosophy Company on this matter ? > [Dan wrote:] Why are there 600+ changes in this Theosophy Company's edition? > > [Dallas replies] I believe this is now made clear. > > No claim was made by T. Co. regarding their issuance of the VOICE > as to its being either verbatim or facsimile. I agree that it is > unfortunate that the source was not mentioned. > > I am sorry it has taken so long for me to discover the source of > the changes made.W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > > Oct 23rd 1998 ************************************************************** Daniel Caldwell replies: Thanks, Dallas, for the latest information on the Theosophy Company edition of the VOICE. There is little to comment on at this stage. You have *admitted and confirmed* that there are indeed changes and "corrections" in the Theosophy Company's edition of the VOICE when *compared* to HPB's original 1889 edition. Hence the Theosophy Company's edition of the VOICE does *not* meet the standards that *you yourself espoused only a month ago on theos-talk*. At that time you wrote: > > I prefer a facsimile edition - no question of authenticity. > > Comments and changes can be put in an ADDENDUM for students to > > consult. > > > > Verbatim editions are acceptable, if truly and accurately > > VERBATIM - no changes or emendations or interpolations. Any > > such can be handled through an ADDENDUM. I would suggest that in the future you use and recommend either the TUP edition or the TPH Quest 1992 edition of the VOICE. MOST of the changes in the TC edition (whether by an annoymous editor or by WQ Judge) are totally unnecessary. Why change Blavatsky's original text when there is really no need to do so? See *some* of the specific examples I gave in a previous email. And these changes in the TC edition are CONTRARY to the principles enunciated by the TC publishers in prefaces to their own editions of ISIS and SD. If one believes there is an "error" or "mistake" in the VOICE, then indicate it in an addendum as *you yourself originally suggested*. No, I have not written The Theosophy Company, but Dallas, since you are there at the ULT (LA) several times probably every week, please feel free to pass along my observations. *And in light of your own standard of last month*, I would hope that you yourself would URGE your ULT associates (those who are *in charge* of The Theosophy Company) to stop selling an altered version with 663 changes. Urge them to publish a "perfect facsimile" edition of the original 1889 VOICE. I also hope that in the future you will be less critical and more understanding of Boris de Zirkoff's editing of HPB's "Collected Writings." If he has not changed the meaning of HPB's text, then that should meet you "new" standard, right? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 01:02:12 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: What's the password? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981023010212.007c7140@pophost.micron.net> Dallas wrote: >I deliberately introduced MEANING since for real students of the >VOICE that is an important issue. What, Dallas, is a "real" student? Please, do tell. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:13:35 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1666 Message-ID: In a message dated 10/21/98 5:41:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Peter writes: << the psychological discovery that the human mind is naturally divided into two halves, and the discoveries that each half possesses unique traits and characteristics >> This was marvelous food for thought. I think, though, that in the above statement, you may be referring to the left and right halves of the brain? I don't think they can be equated with the conscious and subconscious, or soul and spirit, though - because there are conscious processes on both sides of the brain. The left, for example, may handle accounting; the right may handle processing visual images. I think of the subconscious as a physical place in the brain that is a "doorway" to the spiritual. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:56:02 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE == Source of Theos. Co. edition Message-ID: <000101bdfd91$6fe05520$a50e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Oct 22 1998 RE: Source of the Theosophy Company edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE In 1893 Mr. W. Q. Judge published in New York a reprint of this book. I have also seen a reprint of this dated 1899. When he did this he made some changes as compared to the London printed original editions of 1889 and 1893 (DONE IN RESET TYPE AND IN A LARGER FORMAT) of that book. The Theosophy Company when it reprinted the VOICE in the 1920s followed the edition that Mr. Judge had issued in 1893. It is different from the original 1889 edition in many ways. And although I have not verified Dr. Stokes (of the O.E.Library Critic) claim that there are over 600 changes, it may be fair to assume that is correct. I had no time this morning to thoroughly proof-read these two books in comparison with the T Co. edition. What little checking that I did, using the main references of differences that Dan has so kindly provided, showed that Mr. Judge had made these in his edition. Dan's comments insofar as they are accurate (as I have not checked all of them) stand. Remains the matter of meaning. I deliberately asked this question of Dan so that he would consider it. He has confined himself to the physical aspect alone. Fair enough. I append some further comments/answers in the body of his letter reproduced below. Dallas >From: D.Caldwell/M.Graye >Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 11:12 PM >Subject: Theos-World Dallas on the Theosophy Company's edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE SUBJECT: Dallas on the Theosophy Company's edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: >RE: VOICE OF THE SILENCE > > Dear "Augoeides," > > I would strongly recommend that you verify the allegations for > yourself and see if they are correct. And, at the same time ask > yourself if there is any change in MEANING. Although I asked > this question of Dan, he has not answered it directly, but has > pointed out errors of transcription. What Dan has written is > textually accurate - as he always is on such matters - no > arguments there. And, there never have been. That is the strict > application of the "Eye Doctrine." Daniel Caldwell replies: Thank you Dallas for your reply. I would be most happy to answer the question about whether "the meaning has been changed or not". But this was NOT the issue I was bringing up in my earlier emails and it was NOT your original point at the beginning of this discussion last month. One of your original points last month was as follows. I quote your words concerning editions of Blavatsky's writings: > I prefer a facsimile edition - no question of authenticity. > Comments and changes can be put in an ADDENDUM for students to > consult. > > Verbatim editions are acceptable, if truly and accurately > VERBATIM - no changes or emendations or interpolations. Any > such can be handled through an ADDENDUM. Please, Dallas, notice your own words about "verbatim": NO CHANGES OR EMENDATIONS OR INTERPOLATIONS. Dallas, in my email of a few days ago, [ I append that email at the END of these comments. ] I showed by quoting chapter and verse that there WERE (1) changes, (2) emendations and (3) interpolations in the VOICE as published by the Theosophy Company. Whether these "corrections", etc. change the meaning or not is NOT really the issue. The ONLY issue I was addressing is that an "editorial hand" has been at work on HP Blavatsky's original text. Someone has taken upon himself/herself to *alter and correct* HPB's text. And some of the changes are so trivial that one should ask: "Why even make the changes in the first place??" But some of the changes are significant. Apparently G.R.S. Mead and Boris de Zirkoff are not the only persons who have had the editorial "itch" to change and correct HPB's text. Boris de Zirkoff in his "Collected Writings" edition, at least, tells the reader that he is making certain types of changes. Nothing is found in the Theosophy Company's edition of the Voice to alert the reader that hundreds of changes have been made to HPB's original edition. The only reason I bring up Boris de Zirkoff's name in this discussion is that many ULT associates, and even ULT "officials", have been quite vocal in their criticisms of Mr. de Zirkoff's editing and "correcting" of HPB's writings. But I guess it's . . . okay with you (and other ULT associates?) that the Theosophy Company has made more than 600 changes in HPB's original text of the VOICE?????? Again I repeat your previous remark and append a few more comments: > I would strongly recommend that you verify the allegations for > yourself and see if they are correct. And, at the same time ask > yourself if there is any change in MEANING. Although I asked > this question of Dan, he has not answered it directly, but has > pointed out errors of transcription. What Dan has written is > textually accurate - as he always is on such matters - no > arguments there. And, there never have been. That is the strict > application of the "Eye Doctrine." So, Dallas, what are you trying to tell "Augoeides"? Are you trying to tell him/her that it is okay with you if an editor changes HPB's words/text as long as the editor doesn't change the meaning? If this is what you are attempting to convey, then what has happened to YOUR September 1998 "standard" of preferring facsimile or verbatim copies of HPB's works? As far as I know, verbatim means "word for word" and by this definition, the TC edition of the VOICE is definitely NOT verbatim. Would you now prefer that "verbatim" be defined as "having the same meaning"?? Dallas As above stated the source of the changes has been located. Verbatim is verbatim. Facsimile is facsimile. As I said no argument there. Meaning is of course another issue. Again you write that Dan "has pointed out errors of transcriptions." No Dallas, this is not accurate. I have pointed out what can be reasonably considered as DELIBERATE changes and corrections. [SEE THE DETAILED EXAMPLES APPENDED BELOW.] Dallas To be quite fair to readers in this matter it is my opinion that you could include, if you will, your opinion as to alterations of MEANING, IF THERE ARE ANY SIGNIFICANT ONES THAT YOU HAVE FOUND. Now one of my correspondents in private email wrote: "Now here is a surprise. Do you know the TPH Wheaton has a 1991 [1992] centenary edition of VOS?. . . When I first saw this edition and noticed its differences from TC version I assumed TC was the original. . . . Now it may turn out that TC made changes and TPH has the original! Wouldn't that be a change!" In comparing these two versions, I find that the TPH Wheaton edition has only a few corrections. For example, in the original 1889 VOS, one finds the word "acking" which is, no doubt, by the context of the sentence, a "typo" for "lacking". This is corrected in the TPH Wheaton edition. IN FACT, IN REALITY, the TPH Wheaton edition is much more faithful to the original 1889 VOS than the TC edition with its 600+ changes. So Dallas, let me pose a question for you: In light of what you now know about the TC edition with 600+ changes, do you still PREFER that TC edition or would you be willing to adopt a better edition like the TPH 1992 Wheaton edition mentioned by my email correspondent? Dallas The best course is to state from the outset exactly what is being done. That lets the reader decide on the matter of his reference and reliance. I deliberately introduced MEANING since for real students of the VOICE that is an important issue. Have you written to Theosophy Company on this matter ? Dallas I APPEND BELOW MY EMAIL FROM SATURDAY IN WHICH I DOCUMENT SOME OF THE CHANGES BETWEEN THE 2 EDITIONS UNDER DISCUSSION. Subject: Theos-World Theosophy Company's 1987 edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 20:49:31 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Theosophy Company's 1987 edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE Of late, I have spent some time comparing the 1987 edition of the VOICE published by The Theosophy Company (CA) with the original 1889 edition of HPB's classic. As pointed out in one of my earlier emails, this Theosophy Company edition (first published 1928) is NOT verbatim with the original VOICE. In fact, the TC edition has more than 600 changes and "corrections". Here are several examples of these changes: On p. 73 of the original VOICE, HPB wrote: > The "great Master" is the term used by *lanoos* or > chelas to indicate one's "Higher Self." The Theosophy Company's 1987 edition reads: > The "great Master" is the term used by > Lanoos or Chelas to indicate the HIGHER SELF. As one can see, there are several changes in this one sentence including deleting a word and adding another. Again, HPB in the original wrote on pp. 74-75: > It stands generally for the 100 years or "age" of Brahma, the > duration of a Kalpa or a period of 4,320,000,000 years. The Theosophy Company's edition reads (p. 5): > It stands generally for the 100 years or "age" of Brahma, the > duration of a Maha-Kalpa or a period of 311,040,000,000,000 years. Again, the 1889 edition, p. 78: > These mystic sounds or the melody heard by the ascetic . . . . The TC edition changes this to (p. 19): > The mystic sounds, or the melody, heard by the ascetic . . . . Again, the original VOICE, p. 87: > *Upadya* is a spiritual perceptor, a Guru. The TC editions reads (p. 49): > *Upadhyaya* is a spiritual preceptor, a Guru. Once, again, the original VOICE reads on p. 82: > Bodhidharma called them in China---from whence the names reached > Tibet---the *Tsung-men* (esoteric) and *Kiau-men* (exoteric school). The TC edition changes this passage to read: (p. 25) > The *Bodhidharma*, Wisdom Religion in China---whence the names reached > Tibet---called them the *Tsung-men* (Esoteric) and *Kiau-men* (Esoteric > school). On pp. x-xi of the original, one finds the following: > . . . (*Bhagavatgita II*. 70). . . . > . . . (*Bhagavatgita II*. 27). . . . The TC edition changes the spelling of this Hindu text and deletes the numbers "70" and "27". *Also the spelling of numerous Sanskrit words are changed throughout the TC edition when compared with the original 1889 edition of the VOICE.* ================================================================= Over the years, The Theosophy Company has prided itself on providing photographic reprints of HPB's original works. Notice what this publisher writes in their 1947 edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE: "With the present printing of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, The Theosophy Company continues its function of providing students and inquirers with unaltered editions of the original literature of the Theosophical Movement. . . . this edition is a perfect facsimile of the original edition and can be relied upon as such." And earlier in the same "Publishers' Preface", pains were taken to point out: "Besides the original edition of 1888---the only one authorized by Madame Blavatsky---several other editions of this work have appeared. One of these, the so-called 'Third and Revised Edition' of 1893, is marred by many thousands of alterations, some of them trivial, some actual mutilations of the original text." And this preface went on to say the following about another edition of the SD: "Except for gratuitous 'corrections' of the author's [Blavatsky's] Sanskrit scholarship. . . . this edition is virtually an accurate reproduction of the original text. Its exact authenticity, however, cannot be determined without laborious comparison with the original." How much of this (Theosophy Company's) "Publishers' Preface" could be equally applied to their own edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE??!! Why are there 600+ changes in this Theosophy Company's edition? I believe this is now made clear. No claim was made by T. Co. regarding their issuance of the VOICE as to its being either verbatim or facsimile. I agree that it is unfortunate that the source was not mentioned. I am sorry it has taken so long for me to discover the source of the changes made. Dallas Oct 22 1998 =============================================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:05:18 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Psycological Integrity After Death Message-ID: <006701bdfdbc$9f8c6860$107d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BDFD9B.173BDFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Does psychological integrity after death result from moral integrity >before death? > >Again, an argument quickly presents itself that this may be so. > >- Peter Novak And I could present an argument that it is not so. First of all, what is "moral integrity?" Its either a purely conscious notion that dies with=20 the brain, or its higher or "good" skandhas. Having "good" karma will help the quality of the afterlife as well as the quality of the = next life, but psychological integrity after death, as I understand it, only=20 comes about through training during life, usually in the form of doing yoga or magic. Death is a lot like sleep. Morals have little to do with the ability to have lucid dreams, for example. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BDFD9B.173BDFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Does psychological integrity after death result from moral=20 integrity
>before death?
>
>Again, an argument quickly = presents itself that this may be so.
>
>- Peter = Novak
 
And I could present an argument that it is not so. First of all, = what=20 is
"moral integrity?"  Its either a purely conscious = notion=20 that dies with
the brain, or its higher or "good" skandhas. Having=20 "good" karma
will help the quality of the afterlife as well as the quality of = the=20 next
life, but psychological integrity after death, as I understand it, = only=20
comes about through training during life, usually in the form of=20 doing
yoga or magic. Death is a lot like sleep. Morals have little to = do
with the ability to have lucid dreams, for example.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BDFD9B.173BDFC0-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:11:56 -0700 From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" Subject: Dallas on the Theosophy Company's edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE Message-ID: <362D7B2C.315C@azstarnet.com> SUBJECT: Dallas on the Theosophy Company's edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: >RE: VOICE OF THE SILENCE > > Dear "Augoeides," > > I would strongly recommend that you verify the allegations for > yourself and see if they are correct. And, at the same time ask > yourself if there is any change in MEANING. Although I asked > this question of Dan, he has not answered it directly, but has > pointed out errors of transcription. What Dan has written is > textually accurate - as he always is on such matters - no > arguments there. And, there never have been. That is the strict > application of the "Eye Doctrine." Daniel Caldwell replies: Thank you Dallas for your reply. I would be most happy to answer the question about whether "the meaning has been changed or not". But this was NOT the issue I was bringing up in my earlier emails and it was NOT your original point at the beginning of this discussion last month. One of your original points last month was as follows. I quote your words concerning editions of Blavatsky's writings: > I prefer a facsimile edition - no question of authenticity. > Comments and changes can be put in an ADDENDUM for students to > consult. > > Verbatim editions are acceptable, if truly and accurately > VERBATIM - no changes or emendations or interpolations. Any > such can be handled through an ADDENDUM. Please, Dallas, notice your own words about "verbatim": NO CHANGES OR EMENDATIONS OR INTERPOLATIONS. Dallas, in my email of a few days ago, [ I append that email at the END of these comments. ] I showed by quoting chapter and verse that there WERE (1) changes, (2) emendations and (3) interpolations in the VOICE as published by the Theosophy Company. Whether these "corrections", etc. change the meaning or not is NOT really the issue. The ONLY issue I was addressing is that an "editorial hand" has been at work on HP Blavatsky's original text. Someone has taken upon himself/herself to *alter and correct* HPB's text. And some of the changes are so trivial that one should ask: "Why even make the changes in the first place??" But some of the changes are significant. Apparently G.R.S. Mead and Boris de Zirkoff are not the only persons who have had the editorial "itch" to change and correct HPB's text. Boris de Zirkoff in his "Collected Writings" edition, at least, tells the reader that he is making certain types of changes. Nothing is found in the Theosophy Company's edition of the Voice to alert the reader that hundreds of changes have been made to HPB's original edition. The only reason I bring up Boris de Zirkoff's name in this discussion is that many ULT associates, and even ULT "officials", have been quite vocal in their criticisms of Mr. de Zirkoff's editing and "correcting" of HPB's writings. But I guess it's . . . okay with you (and other ULT associates?) that the Theosophy Company has made more than 600 changes in HPB's original text of the VOICE?????? Again I repeat your previous remark and append a few more comments: > I would strongly recommend that you verify the allegations for > yourself and see if they are correct. And, at the same time ask > yourself if there is any change in MEANING. Although I asked > this question of Dan, he has not answered it directly, but has > pointed out errors of transcription. What Dan has written is > textually accurate - as he always is on such matters - no > arguments there. And, there never have been. That is the strict > application of the "Eye Doctrine." So, Dallas, what are you trying to tell "Augoeides"? Are you trying to tell him/her that it is okay with you if an editor changes HPB's words/text as long as the editor doesn't change the meaning? If this is what you are attempting to convey, then what has happened to YOUR September 1998 "standard" of preferring facsimile or verbatim copies of HPB's works? As far as I know, verbatim means "word for word" and by this definition, the TC edition of the VOICE is definitely NOT verbatim. Would you now prefer that "verbatim" be defined as "having the same meaning"?? Again you write that Dan "has pointed out errors of transcriptions." No Dallas, this is not accurate. I have pointed out what can be reasonably considered as DELIBERATE changes and corrections. [SEE THE DETAILED EXAMPLES APPENDED BELOW.] Now one of my correspondents in private email wrote: "Now here is a surprise. Do you know the TPH Wheaton has a 1991 [1992] centenary edition of VOS?. . . When I first saw this edition and noticed its differences from TC version I assumed TC was the original. . . . Now it may turn out that TC made changes and TPH has the original! Wouldn't that be a change!" In comparing these two versions, I find that the TPH Wheaton edition has only a few corrections. For example, in the original 1889 VOS, one finds the word "acking" which is, no doubt, by the context of the sentence, a "typo" for "lacking". This is corrected in the TPH Wheaton edition. IN FACT, IN REALITY, the TPH Wheaton edition is much more faithful to the original 1889 VOS than the TC edition with its 600+ changes. So Dallas, let me pose a question for you: In light of what you now know about the TC edition with 600+ changes, do you still PREFER that TC edition or would you be willing to adopt a better edition like the TPH 1992 Wheaton edition mentioned by my email correspondent? I APPEND BELOW MY EMAIL FROM SATURDAY IN WHICH I DOCUMENT SOME OF THE CHANGES BETWEEN THE 2 EDITIONS UNDER DISCUSSION. Subject: Theos-World Theosophy Company's 1987 edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 20:49:31 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Theosophy Company's 1987 edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE Of late, I have spent some time comparing the 1987 edition of the VOICE published by The Theosophy Company (CA) with the original 1889 edition of HPB's classic. As pointed out in one of my earlier emails, this Theosophy Company edition (first published 1928) is NOT verbatim with the original VOICE. In fact, the TC edition has more than 600 changes and "corrections". Here are several examples of these changes: On p. 73 of the original VOICE, HPB wrote: > The "great Master" is the term used by *lanoos* or > chelas to indicate one's "Higher Self." The Theosophy Company's 1987 edition reads: > The "great Master" is the term used by > Lanoos or Chelas to indicate the HIGHER SELF. As one can see, there are several changes in this one sentence including deleting a word and adding another. Again, HPB in the original wrote on pp. 74-75: > It stands generally for the 100 years or "age" of Brahma, the > duration of a Kalpa or a period of 4,320,000,000 years. The Theosophy Company's edition reads (p. 5): > It stands generally for the 100 years or "age" of Brahma, the > duration of a Maha-Kalpa or a period of 311,040,000,000,000 years. Again, the 1889 edition, p. 78: > These mystic sounds or the melody heard by the ascetic . . . . The TC edition changes this to (p. 19): > The mystic sounds, or the melody, heard by the ascetic . . . . Again, the original VOICE, p. 87: > *Upadya* is a spiritual perceptor, a Guru. The TC editions reads (p. 49): > *Upadhyaya* is a spiritual preceptor, a Guru. Once, again, the original VOICE reads on p. 82: > Bodhidharma called them in China---from whence the names reached > Tibet---the *Tsung-men* (esoteric) and *Kiau-men* (exoteric school). The TC edition changes this passage to read: (p. 25) > The *Bodhidharma*, Wisdom Religion in China---whence the names reached > Tibet---called them the *Tsung-men* (Esoteric) and *Kiau-men* (Esoteric > school). On pp. x-xi of the original, one finds the following: > . . . (*Bhagavatgita II*. 70). . . . > . . . (*Bhagavatgita II*. 27). . . . The TC edition changes the spelling of this Hindu text and deletes the numbers "70" and "27". *Also the spelling of numerous Sanskrit words are changed throughout the TC edition when compared with the original 1889 edition of the VOICE.* Over the years, The Theosophy Company has prided itself on providing photographic reprints of HPB's original works. Notice what this publisher writes in their 1947 edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE: "With the present printing of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, The Theosophy Company continues its function of providing students and inquirers with unaltered editions of the original literature of the Theosophical Movement. . . . this edition is a perfect facsimile of the original edition and can be relied upon as such." And earlier in the same "Publishers' Preface", pains were taken to point out: "Besides the original edition of 1888---the only one authorized by Madame Blavatsky---several other editions of this work have appeared. One of these, the so-called 'Third and Revised Edition' of 1893, is marred by many thousands of alterations, some of them trivial, some actual mutilations of the original text." And this preface went on to say the following about another edition of the SD: "Except for gratuitous 'corrections' of the author's [Blavatsky's] Sanskrit scholarship. . . . this edition is virtually an accurate reproduction of the original text. Its exact authenticity, however, cannot be determined without laborious comparison with the original." How much of this (Theosophy Company's) "Publishers' Preface" could be equally applied to their own edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE??!! Why are there 600+ changes in this Theosophy Company's edition? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:20:37 -0500 From: Peter Novak Subject: Common scientific basis to afterlife reports? Message-ID: <362DD195.20FB@csinet.net> Has modern science finally arrived at the underlying mechanics of Life After Death reports? It now seems possible, perhaps even likely, that Near-Death Experiences, Past-Life memories, and reports of ghosts & apparitions may all be related, all the explainable and predictable effects of a single, scientifically definable "Life After Death" condition. A great wealth of evidence, both scientific (sociological, psychological, and archaeological) and scriptural (compiled from sacred religious texts from cultures all across the world), seems to offer compelling testimony for a new, scientifically-based vision of Life After Death. The Binary Soul Hypothesis The ancients believed, as modern psychology teaches, that the human SELF is composed of a fundamental duality. Whether one calls the two parts of that duality a "conscious" and an "unconscious", or "the head" and "the heart", or (as in ancient China) a p'o and a hun, or (as in ancient Greece) a thymos and a psyche, or (ancient Egypt) a ba and a ka, or (ancient Persia) an urvan and a fravashi, or (ancient India) an asu and a manas, or (ancient Hawaii) the uhane and unihipili souls, or (ancient Israel) a soul and a spirit, humans have always and everywhere seen themselves as possessing two distinct and separate non-material psychic components. Like that ancient SELF described in so many cultures, modern science has in this century also discovered that our mind is composed of two parts - one conscious and one unconscious. And modern science's description of the characteristics of those two parts is (surprise!) virtually identical to how those ancient cultures used to describe the two parts. Traditions about a Binary Soul Dividing at Death Many ancient peoples (including Greece, Egypt, Persia, China, Hawaii, Israel, native Americans, and other cultures) all believed that these two parts separated from one another at death; most of these cultures believed that one of their two parts would become trapped in some sort of semi-conscious, dreamlike netherworld (a heaven/hell type scenario), while the other part slipped away freely. Some of these ancient cultures believed that this second part of the binary soul went on to reincarnate. What is particularly interesting about this is that : (A) These ancient cultures described the functions and characteristics of the two parts in terms virtually identical to how modern psychologists describe the functions and characteristics of the conscious and unconscious alves of the human psyche. (B) If one then asks what would happen if the two halves of the human psyche survived the death of the physical body, but divided from one another in the process, one finds that the unconscious would seem to become trapped in a self-induced dreamlike netherworld, while the other would loses its memory and sense of identity but remain free to go on to have new experiences, as in the tradition of reincarnation. I go into detail about the mechanics of this process at my website: http://www.geocities.com/~divisiontheory. (C) The Bible, as well as many other ancient scriptures, includes literally hundreds of passages supporting such a soul/spirit division concept (although few have noticed this relationship): "The word of God is living and active and stronger than any two-edged sword, and cuts so deeply it divides the soul from the spirit..." - Hebrews 4:12 This Division Would Hide Itself What is particularly interesting is that such a division, if indeed it did occur, would naturally hide itself . If such a division did occur, no one would be likely to report the division itself, but only the aftereffects of the division; the division itself could only be discovered through deductive reasoning. If such a division occurred, there would be few or no reports of the division itself . Instead, there would be two seemingly contradictory traditions of the afterlife: (1) a dreamlike netherworld, and (2) reincarnation. No one would report the division itself because after the division, neither side of the mind would be aware that any such division had occurred at all. Each side of the mind would be prevented from arriving at this realization, because after the division, each side of the mind would be crippled, because each would then lack the mental capacities of the opposite side of the mind: If the conscious and unconscious split apart, each side would report the very afterlife experiences we have seen come down through history, and which continue to be reported today. The afterlife experience of the conscious mind would reflect the traditional reincarnation scenario, while the afterlife experience of the unconscious would reflect the traditional heaven/hell netherworld scenario. As has happened for thousands of years, each is still being actively reported today, in NDEs and Past-Life memories. For the last 20 years, science has researched these phenomena, and this research has produced yet further evidence supporting this "Division Theory". Past-Life Regression: The Hidden Evidence for DivisionTheory When subjects are regressed in their memories to a point in time in- between lives, they report an afterlife scenario dramatically unlike that reported by NDE subjects. In-between lives, they report possessing no memories or emotions, just calmly floating in a tranquil nothingness. They don't recall their own names, or having ever lived any previous lives, or having ever been anywhere else besides that nothingness they are experiencing at that very moment. This contrasts sharply with the scenario described by NDE subjects, who report undergoing profound memory- reviews - confrontations with their memories of their past-life- after which they visit emotionally-intense heavens or hells populated by any number of other people. NDE subjects do often report a similar episode during their experiences, in which they seem to temporarily "lose track" of their own emotional state, during the first few moments of an NDE. But shortly after they begin the subsequent events (traveling through the tunnel, experiencing the memory-review, etc), they again report having vivid, intense emotions. From Psychology to Archaeology to Sociology: The Accumulating Evidence for DivisionTheory This century has brought many discoveries which stand as evidence supporting DivisionTheory: (1) the psychological discovery that the human mind is naturally divided into two halves, and the discoveries that each half possesses unique traits and characteristics (2) the DivisionTheory discovery that, if the mind was to survive death, but divided apart in the process, those innate scientific characteristics of those two halves, the conscious and the unconscious, would cause them to neatly reproduce humanity's two classic afterlife scenarios (the conscious would lose its memory but remain free to go on to new experiences, i.e., reincarnate, while the unconscious would become trapped in a dreamworld created out of its own reactions to its own memories, i.e., a memory- review, a judgment, and then heaven or hell), and (2) the archaeological discovery, in the Nag Hammadi scriptures, that the afterlife theology of the early Christian church originally focused on such a division of two halves of a person's spiritual self, and (3) the historic discovery that the ancient religions of Hawaii, Egypt, Greece, China, Persia, and many other cultures also focused on such a belief, and (4) the sociological phenomenon that subjects hypnotically regressed in their memories to a point in time in-between past lifetimes (as during Past- Life Regression) consistently describe floating calmly in nothingness, feeling no emotions, recalling no memories, and possessing no sense of identity, and (5) the sociological phenomenon that people describing Near-Death experiences frequently report experiencing a similar, but temporary loss of feelings and emotions (this occurs immediately after leaving their bodies, but before they travel very far away from that body, and their sense of experiencing emotions returns shortly thereafter), and (6) the sociological phenomenon that modern exorcists consistently describe the devils and demons they encounter as possessing a single identity, but being at the same time composed of innumerable separate entities. Does this constitute final, definitive, conclusive proof of Division Theory? No. But DivisionTheory does explain ALL the phenomena being reported, up to and including the peculiar memory- and emotion-loses being reported by NDE and past-Life Regression subjects. DivisionTheory suggests that NDE subjects report the afterlife experience of the unconscious (the soul), while the Past-Life Regression group reports the afterlife experience of the conscious (the spirit). But neither side, neither conscious nor unconscious, would report the division itself at all. There could be no direct eye-witness reporting of such an event. Neither part would be aware such a division had occurred, because: * The conscious would not remember the division. Memory is stored in the unconscious. * The unconscious would not be able to figure out that the division had occurred, because, having lost the conscious mind with its rational intellect, it could no longer objectively figure out anything. It would be as unable to discern logical conflicts and irrationalities as the mind is during dreams. This would explain why the reports of heaven/hell netherworlds and the reports of reincarnation both continued through the ages, keeping both legends alive, but the reports of the division itself got lost in the confusion during the cultural turmoil of the Dark Ages. After the Dark Ages, the division was no longer understood. Nor was the distinction between the soul and spirit comprehended, and they became thought of as interchangeable terms for the same thing, whereas in the original texts of many many cultures, the two were clearly presented as separate and distinct components of the human spiritual economy. I have established a website, on this idea, which I invite interested parties to explore. I find it endlessly fascinating how the ancient beliefs dovetail with modern science via DivisionTheory. The website- http://www.geocities.com/~divisiontheory goes into some detail on this. The Bible, and the scriptures of many many other cultures, differentiated between soul and spirit, and clearly stated that they could, and often did, divide apart. Given that, we must ask, what part of "ME" is the soul, and what part is the spirit? If we do divide apart, this question becomes crucial - are they parts I will miss much? The ancient cultures speak of these two parts in the same way modern science speaks of the conscious and unconscious. If the spirit splits away at death, and the spirit is in fact our conscious mind, death suddenly become far less hopeful a place than merely the reincarnation scenario of the East or the heaven/hell of the West. Instead, we are split apart, losing our very SELFhood. This rings true in my ears. When something deteriorates, it breaks down into its constituent components. Perhaps the mind does as well. Perhaps this explains whay so many ancient religions focused so strongly on the importance of INTEGRITY. Does psychological integrity after death result from moral integrity before death? Again, an argument quickly presents itself that this may be so. - Peter Novak From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:17:54 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Common scientific basis to afterlife reports? Message-ID: Peter Novak writes >If the spirit splits >away at death, and the spirit is in fact our conscious mind, death >suddenly become far less hopeful a place than merely the reincarnation >scenario of the East or the heaven/hell of the West. Instead, we are >split apart, losing our very SELFhood. We could consider that while soul and spirit are co-existent in us during life, it is the soul, and not the spirit, which splits away at death. The soul would see this as extinction, and be afraid of death - a necessary condition of "self-preservation" whilst incarnate. My perception is that this is indeed what happens, though I see memory as part of spirit. Memory and recall are not, however, the same thing, so that recall will produce (say) past life experiences or confused mixtures of genuine and imagined events, while memory will *know* the basic facts. > >This rings true in my ears. When something deteriorates, it breaks down >into its constituent components. Perhaps the mind does as well. Perhaps >this explains whay so many ancient religions focused so strongly on the >importance of INTEGRITY. Absolutely. The integrity however is integrity of spirit, which could be said to use "soul" as a vehicle, and would, if not immediately after physical death, allow the "soul" to disintegrate after its experience(s) had been absorbed into memory. This is my interpretation of occult teaching as I have received it, but in the short context of an e-mail begs the question (as always) of the definition of terms! Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:22:35 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: T. Co. == THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and other books == Why the ULT ? Message-ID: <000601bdfbe9$a8346640$b00e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Oct 19th 1998 RE: VOICE OF THE SILENCE Dear "Augoeides," I would strongly recommend that you verify the allegations for yourself and see if they are correct. And, at the same time ask yourself if there is any change in MEANING. Although I asked this question of Dan, he has not answered it directly, but has pointed out errors of transcription. What Dan has written is textually accurate - as he always is on such matters - no arguments there. And, there never have been. That is the strict application of the "Eye Doctrine." The question is "Why is there any textual difference ?" Since I have been involved in this exchange I suggested that he write to Theosophy Company and ask his questions directly. Perhaps he has done this, but he does not mention that. I certainly was not around in the 1920s when the decision to offer an edition of the VOICE was taken. There is no question that Theosophy Company did well in reprinting facsimile editions of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, ISIS UNVEILED, and THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY appears to also be a facsimile reprint, and in more recent years A MODERN PANARION and FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY have been reprinted in facsimile. The printing of these facsimiles has forced the various publishers of Theosophical books to issue (if they wanted to) their own facsimile reprints. Students now have ready access to those originals. Remains the VOICE. When this was reprinted by T. Co. it was not identified either as a facsimile or a verbatim reprint of the original. Considering some of the facts that Dan has set forth: "Bhagavad Gita" is still "Bhagavadgita." The spelling in English is optional. The MEANING has not changed The Theosophy Company issued this edition of the VOICE so that it would be available and true to HPB's meaning from the point of view of the "Heart Doctrine." This is what ought to be checked out. Are students hampered, diverted or deterred from securing HPB's meaning? When the ULT reprinted THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE in the 1920s, I believe, it did so to simplify the access to the "Glossary" explanations. Originally those had been placed in the back of the book as first issued in 1889. They were moved from that position to serve as FOOTNOTES, which were then placed on the same page, below the word in the text, so that students could gain immediate understanding of those strange ancient words she used in that text they had just read. In this Dr. Stokes and his finding of over 600 alterations is probably correct, but I have not reverified the count, having done this once many years ago. Also, as I understand it, the only edition (in the 1920s) of the VOICE available, was that published by the TPH, Adyar. In that it was found that there had been omitted the explanation given by HPB in her Glossary (at the end of the book) concerning "Pratyekha Buddhas" (p. 47). It is an important reference and dovetails with the rest of Theosophical teachings - it explains how it is possible for a "Buddha-of-selfishness" == who is technically correct in all his observances, but is resolute in his determination to sever all connections with the millions of humanity from which he has emerged == to become a Mukta (free of all bonds and karma), and enter a kind of private Nirvana which is said to last for the rest of this Manvantara. In the 2nd printing of the book (1890 ?) a few corrections were made, apparently just before HPB's death in London, and for instance "Upadhya" was changed to the more correct "Upadhyaya." (p. 49) Upadhyaya means a "teacher Of spiritual lore," and as a surname it is used among some Brahmin families of Bengal and East India. [ Variants indicating levels of proficiency are Bandopadhyaya and Chattopadhyaya. This compares with other Brahmin surnames such a Vedi, Dwivedi, Trivedi and Chaturvedi == each indicating a level of proficiency. ] Now to another point which seems relevant. Theosophy Company publishes for The UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS, which exists for a single purpose: "To spread broadcast the teachings of Theosophy as recorded in the writings of H. P. Blavatsky and William Q. Judge." In that connection and as an adjunct to publishing the "original teachings of theosophy," ULT maintains a program of lectures or study meetings when an adequate number of students desire to gather to pursue together the study of the writings of the "messengers" from the Ancient and Immemorial Lodge of Masters (see ISIS UNVEILED, II pp. 95-103). In terms of the DECLARATION of the ULT, they seek "to fit themselves by study and otherwise, to be the better able to help and teach others." These meetings and the availability of the texts are advertised regularly. All work is voluntary and is sustained by those who think it is essential to see that the "original message" of Theosophy (and its meaning) is made available to all those who desire to find it. No restrictions are made on attendance. There are no rules, or regulations, or fees. All is sustained by volunteers who are agreed that THEOSOPHY ought to be perpetuated. For this reason the present students who use the facilities of the ULT, and who have profited by the Teachings and the contact with the Masters made available through HPB and WQJ, continue that work as best they can. They try to offer the same opportunity to others who surround them, or will follow them in time. As I said earlier, all are volunteers and each one decides for himself or herself how they will participate in the continuing work. The ULT is in no sense an "organization," nor does it seek to enroll "members," or, conduct membership drives, etc. Its "open door" policy ought to be considered as one of the many gateways to that Wisdom which is the universal and common legacy of all mankind. It offers freedom -- freedom to think, freedom to study, freedom to consult -- since The UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS exists (as said earlier) for a single purpose: "To spread broadcast the teachings of Theosophy as recorded in the writings of H. P. Blavatsky and William Q. Judge." The meetings that are held, function and serve as opportunities for mutual consultation. The whole and only basis of the ULT is its DECLARATION. It has no other basis, or laws, or rules, or regulations, and participation in its activities is offered free to anyone who desires to use them or ask about them. It also welcomes every kind of volunteer effort that is in line with its DECLARATION, and has the brotherhood of Mankind and of all Beings as its practical objective. Brotherhood is the practice of the objects of Theosophy. Publications are offered close to actual cost, so that they can receive the widest distribution. Those who support the Theosophical Movement as a whole, use the ULT vehicle for the purpose of letting others know that THEOSOPHY exists, and that there are those who are its students. And further, that no set view is imposed as a "belief," or a "creed" on anyone, and no one is looked upon as "a leader," as all are "STUDENTS OF THEOSOPHY." If there is any orthodoxy at all, it is in its strict adherence to the promulgation of the "original teachings of Theosophy as recorded by HPB and WQJ." Since it is an association of student-volunteers, those so associated gather to consult with each other at frequent intervals. As a result of many years of experience all over the world in many kinds of situations, methods have been adopted that were found to provide the most harmonious atmosphere in which individuals can work, so as to carry forward its special program - outlined in its DECLARATION. As said earlier, an atmosphere of freedom and cooperation does not limit the individual right to freedom of study and work so long as the rights of others are not infringed upon. I hope that this information assists in making the situation clearer. If there are more questions, please do not hesitate to ask them. [ I do not quote the DECLARATION of the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS again as it was quoted some months ago. But if it is requested it can be requoted. ] With best wishes, as always to you, Dallas > From: Augoeides@aol.com > Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 8:36 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy Company's 1987 edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE In a message dated 10/18/98 12:04:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, blafoun@azstarnet.com writes: << Why are there 600+ changes in this Theosophy Company's edition? >> If this is true, the United Lodge of Theosophists have a lot to answer for. Sounds like false advertising to me! Augoeides -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:45:02 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: "Mystery of the 777 incarnations" -- A possible solution Message-ID: <000101bdfc51$5fe47480$9e0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Oct 20th 1998 The "777 incarnations" are spoken of in MAHATMA LETTERS, BOTTOM OF P. 83. Prior to that there were several exchanges on the subject of the possible number of incarnations (pp. 82-3). The Master suggests "Try to solve the problem of the 777 incarnations." And following that on p. 86 we find Him reminding Mr. Sinnett of the root-races and the sub-races. If we look at the whole scheme of evolution as depicted by HPB is the SD In the Diagram on p. 200 of Vol. 1 we find that there are 7 Globes The wave of mankind goes through each globe seven (7) times and this constitutes a Round. There are 7 Rounds 7 x 7 = 49 Each Globe has seven (7) sub-divisions named "Races" - which are in reality cycles of time during which mankind experiences changes in the environment. These can be physical, astral, psychic, vital, intellectual, psycho-mental, etc... in total 7 corresponding to the 7 great Natural divisions. 7 Races 7 x 7 x 7 = 343 >From one point of view we have one of the solutions to the riddle. There must be others as well. Offered for consideration, Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:54:16 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Laughing last? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981018235416.007c4b20@pophost.micron.net> Doss wrote: >Judge Susan Weber who presided over Paula Jones case will be posting the >material from the case at 6.00 am Monday on the web. It looks like the >first time a Federal District Court is posting materials on the web. >Usually they release only paper which later find their way to the web. This >time it is direct to the web. It is quite interesting that before the Clinton business, most in Washington D.C. and the Courts pooh-poohed the Internet. There was (and may still be) policies among some senators, including my representative here in Idaho, that letters sent via e-mail are least priority because sending e-mail is "too easy" and may "not be sincere." Now, miracles! These formerly stodgy folk are just suddenly all enamoured with the Web and its ability to get the information out to the "masses." Odd. Guess it all depends upon just how MOTIVATED people are before they decide to usher in and utilize the sparkly technology. I guess we'll find the release of the court transcripts to the Web pretty cool; I must admit, I do read it all. But I also bet most of us will find the release of court transcripts to the Web pretty horrible if, goddess forbid, one day some transcripts happen to have our name (or a loved one's) on them. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 07:21:35 -0700 From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" Subject: Dr. Bain displays skepticism concerning various SD quotations Message-ID: <362B4AEF.2372@azstarnet.com> SUBJECT: Dr. Bain displays skepticism concerning various SD quotations Dr. Alan Bain writes the following concerning various quotes from THE SECRET DOCTRINE: > > > Including the belief that the SD version of history is more reliable, for > which no hard evidence is offered. > > > An interesting, but unsubstantiated claim. If it came from the Moonies, > we would possibly regard such a statement with *extreme* suspicion. > If such documents exist, then let them be published. They can't be > harder to understand than the "days and nights of Brahma," and may > even be more relevant to the human condition *as it is* here and now. > Again, unsupported claims. Very impressive-sounding, but as likely as > any similar claim to be of doubtful authenticity. > > > "It is said, " or "It is written" does not make something true. Nor does > "It is printed." How are we supposed to check all this out? > > > ... which statements will be a great help during the next couple of > months to all of us. > -------------------------------- > > Well I never! Who would have thought it? What shall we do about it? > Does it matter? Daniel Caldwell replies: Well, I'm impressed, Dr. Bain, by your skepticism. I just hope that you are EQUALLY skeptical of the various claims put forth in the Kabbala. Many (if not most) of the statements in this system of thought are ALSO incapable of verification and may be of "doubtful authenticity". And much of the teaching of the Kabbala could be viewed with YOUR attitude of "Does it matter?" Also IF you consider ANY Theosophical views as valid, then I hope you are also doubtful of these teachings since from a skeptical, materialistic view, most if not all of the views of esotericism, theosophy, mysticism, the paranormal, etc. are of "doubtful authenticity" and incapable of verification. Read, for example, THE TRANSCENDENTAL TEMPTATION by Dr. Paul Kurtz, published by Prometheus Press. "How are we supposed to check all this out?" Yes, indeed. Just hoping you are an equal opportunity skeptic!! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:37:36 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet to rescue Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981019123736.00e66c48@mail.eden.com> Due to very heavy rains, I could not make any long distance outgoing calls since yesterday morning. However, the Internet connection is working ok and have been sending and receiving msgs. One more instance of Internet coming to the rescue as a tool of communication. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:47:08 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: About alterations on Blavatsky's texts (To Graye-Caldwell) Message-ID: <362B7B1B.C15D47@usa.net> Hi all. This is for all of you , but speccialy to Graye-Caldwell,who is the inquiring one) I haven't read much theosophy texts on english. most of the material i have read is on the web. But (Speaking for me) In México you can find theosophy books, and most of the material is edited in Argentina (The cheap ones are the paperbacks of Blavatsky related materials; huge books like SD and Isis are way too expensive) I have a "Voice of the silence" book edited in Argentina. is a little blue book. Reading about the errors you said, i notice that in spanish (Specialy in Argentinan translations, probably made in base in european books rather than in US books) there are not that quantity of errors like in the US versions (That are, by the way, slight different, i have noticed that, of spanish versions ) It would be useful for you to compare spanish books of Theosophy (Speccialy Mexican-Argentinan translations, because they carry less modisms-coloquial strange names-) Spain versions are full of modisms and they are quite difficult to understand and translate to English, more accustom to mexican spanish. I hope this information helps you in some way. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 01:47:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: South of the Himalayas! Message-ID: M K Ramadoss writes >On the other hand, the "spiritual" organzations are generally behind in >these matters. They may be emulating the adeptic ways normal north of the >Himalayas. ROFL! BTW, the full text of the International Rules of the Adyar Theosophical Society incorporated in 1905 can now be downloaded from the link on my "Simply Occult" website (see below). Alan :0) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:49:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Dr. Bain displays skepticism concerning various SD quotations Message-ID: D.Caldwell/M.Graye writes >Yes, indeed. Just >hoping you are an equal opportunity skeptic!! Indeed I am! In all my work on Kabbalah (which you kindly mention) I try to tell people not to believe a word I say, but to check it out for themselves, which includes of course, checking out whether or not checking it out is possible. Claims and teachings of any sort if we cannot subject them to independent verification. I think this is one reason that Theosophy International (plug) advocates the use of the scientific method. Dr. Bain (Alan to my friends. You always call me Dr. Bain. Sinister, huh?) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 00:42:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: reincarnation Message-ID: M K Ramadoss quotes >Try to solve the problem of 777 incarnations. . . No thanks. I got enough problems with this one. Alan :0) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 01:50:02 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1661 Message-ID: <29752549.3629818a@aol.com> << Money is the King in the temporal and spiritual world, it seems. >> Maybe they're not so far apart, at least on this planet...... Just a little food for thought. Kick it around. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:43:31 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: A standard by which to judge? Message-ID: <362A288D.57D2@azstarnet.com> SUBJECT: A standard by which to judge? This morning, one ULT associate emailed me privately objecting to my analysis of the Theosophy Company's current edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. This student stated that I was not being fair in MY criticisms. I want to point out to that ULT student and other interested readers that the Theosophy Company's "Publishers' Preface" to the 1947 edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE has set forth a *standard* by which various editions of the SD (as well as editions of HPB's other books) can be judged. This is not my standard; I was not even born in 1947! *Using that TC standard*, how does the current TC edition of the VOICE hold up? I have taken the language used in the SD "Publishers Preface" and have paraphrased it *below* in reference to the TC edition of the VOICE. ********************* With the current 1987 printing of *The Voice of the Silence*, The Theosophy Company has FAILED in its function of providing students and inquirers with UNALTERED editions of the original literature of the Theosophical Movement. This edition of the *Voice* is NOT a perfect facsimile of the original edition and CANNOT be relied upon as such. Besides the original edition of 1889---*the only one authorized by Madame Blavatsky*---several other editions of this work have appeared. The Theosophy Company's 1987 edition is marred by many hundreds of alterations, some of them trivial, some actual mutilations of the original text. This edition contains gratuitous "corrections" of H.P.B.'s Sanskrit scholarship. In summary, this edition is far from being an accurate reproduction of the original text. Its exact authenticity cannot be determined without laborious comparison with the original. ******************* From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:42:15 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Some Quotations from theosophical sources Message-ID: <000a01bdfacf$6948e0c0$a00e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Oct 18th 1998 Dallas offers some quotations to consider --- from Theosophical Literature "...the Secret Doctrine teaches history-which, for being esoteric and traditional, is none the less more reliable than profane history-we are entitled to our beliefs as anyone else, whether religionist or sceptic." SD I 267 (top) "The members of several esoteric schools-the seat of which is beyond the Himalayas...claim to have in their possession the sum total of sacred and philosophical works in MSS, and type; all the works...that have been written in whatever language or character, since the art of writing began..." SD I xxiii "...occult Science-having survived even the great Flood that submerged the antediluvian giants...still holds the Key to all the world problems. Let us apply that Key to the rare fragments of long-forgotten cosmogonies and try by their scattered parts to re-establish the once Universal Cosmogony of the Secret Doctrine....No one can study ancient philosophies seriously without perceiving that the striking similitude of conception between all-in their exoteric form very often, in their hidden spirit invariably-is the result of no mere coincidence, but of a concurrent design; and that there was, during the youth of mankind, one language, one knowledge. one universal religion, and when there were no churches, no creeds or sects, but when every man was a priest unto himself...that thought was inspired by the same revelations, and man was nurtured under the protecting shadow of the same TREE OF KNOWLEDGE." SD I 341 "The landmarks of the archaic history of the past are few and scarce, and those that men of science come across are mistaken for finger-posts of our little era. Even so-called "universal" (?) history embraces but a tiny field in the almost boundless space of the unexplored regions of our latest, fifth Root-Race. Hence, every fresh signpost, every new glyph of the hoary Past that is discovered, is added to the stock of information, to be interpreted on the same lines of pre-existing conceptions, and without any reference to the special cycle of thought which that particular glyph may belong to...the Asvattha, tree of Life and Being, whose destruction alone leads to immortality, is said in the Bhagavadgita to grow with its roots above and its branches below (ch. xv.). The roots represent the supreme Being, or first Cause, the LOGOS; but one has to go beyond those roots to unite oneself with Krishna...Its boughs are Hiranyagarbha (Brahma or Brahman in his highest manifestation...)the highest Dhyan Chohans or Devas. The Vedas are its leaves. He only who goes beyond the roots shall never return, i.e., shall reincarnate no more during this "age" of Brahma." SD I 406 Duration of "Races" and "sub-races" SD II 435 "...our fifth Root-Race has already been in existence-as a race...quite free from its parent stem-about 1,000,000 years; therefore it must be inferred that each of the four preceding Sub-Races has lived approximately 210,000 years ; thus each Family-Race has an average existence of about 30,000 years. Thus the European "Family-Race" ha still a good many thousand years to run, although the nations...vary with each succeeding "season" of three or four thousand years. It is somewhat curious to mark comparative approximation of duration between the lives of a "Family-Race" and a "Sidereal Year." [ 25,868 years ]...The year of the Kaliyuga is said to have begun between the 17th and 18th of February in the year 3,102 B.C. ... " SD II 135 "...the Egyptian Zodiac is between 75 and 80,000 years old ... the Zodiac of the Greeks is far later...16,984 years old, or up to the present [1888] 17,082." SD II 436 Offered for consideration and comment. Dallas ================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:22:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Some Quotations from theosophical sources Message-ID: <$UlKtKAPhnK2EwnU@nellie2.demon.co.uk> W. Dallas TenBroeck writes >Oct 18th 1998 > >Dallas offers some quotations to consider --- from Theosophical >Literature > >"...the Secret Doctrine teaches history-which, for being esoteric >and traditional, is none the less more reliable than profane >history-we are entitled to our beliefs as anyone else, whether >religionist or sceptic." SD I 267 (top) > Including the belief that the SD version of history is more reliable, for which no hard evidence is offered. > >"The members of several esoteric schools-the seat of which is >beyond the Himalayas...claim to have in their possession the sum >total of sacred and philosophical works in MSS, and type; all >the works...that have been written in whatever language or >character, since the art of writing began..." SD I xxiii > An interesting, but unsubstantiated claim. If it came from the Moonies, we would possibly regard such a statement with *extreme* suspicion. If such documents exist, then let them be published. They can't be harder to understand than the "days and nights of Brahma," and may even be more relevant to the human condition *as it is* here and now. > >"...occult Science-having survived even the great Flood that >submerged the antediluvian giants...still holds the Key to all >the world problems. Let us apply that Key to the rare fragments >of long-forgotten cosmogonies and try by their scattered parts to >re-establish the once Universal Cosmogony of the Secret >Doctrine....No one can study ancient philosophies seriously >without perceiving that the striking similitude of conception >between all-in their exoteric form very often, in their hidden >spirit invariably-is the result of no mere coincidence, but of a >concurrent design; and that there was, during the youth of >mankind, one language, one knowledge. one universal religion, and >when there were no churches, no creeds or sects, but when every >man was a priest unto himself...that thought was inspired by the >same revelations, and man was nurtured under the protecting >shadow of the same TREE OF KNOWLEDGE." SD I 341 Again, unsupported claims. Very impressive-sounding, but as likely as any similar claim to be of doubtful authenticity. > >"The landmarks of the archaic history of the past are few and >scarce, and those that men of science come across are mistaken >for finger-posts of our little era. Even so-called "universal" >(?) history embraces but a tiny field in the almost boundless >space of the unexplored regions of our latest, fifth Root-Race. >Hence, every fresh signpost, every new glyph of the hoary Past >that is discovered, is added to the stock of information, to be >interpreted on the same lines of pre-existing conceptions, and >without any reference to the special cycle of thought which that >particular glyph may belong to...the Asvattha, tree of Life and >Being, whose destruction alone leads to immortality, is said in >the Bhagavadgita to grow with its roots above and its branches >below (ch. xv.). The roots represent the supreme Being, or first >Cause, the LOGOS; but one has to go beyond those roots to unite >oneself with Krishna...Its boughs are Hiranyagarbha (Brahma or >Brahman in his highest manifestation...)the highest Dhyan Chohans >or Devas. The Vedas are its leaves. He only who goes beyond the >roots shall never return, i.e., shall reincarnate no more during >this "age" of Brahma." > SD I 406 > "It is said, " or "It is written" does not make something true. Nor does "It is printed." How are we supposed to check all this out? > >Duration of "Races" and "sub-races" SD II 435 > >"...our fifth Root-Race has already been in existence-as a >race...quite free from its parent stem-about 1,000,000 years; >therefore it must be inferred that each of the four preceding >Sub-Races has lived approximately 210,000 years ; thus each >Family-Race has an average existence of about 30,000 years. Thus >the European "Family-Race" ha still a good many thousand years to >run, although the nations...vary with each succeeding "season" of >three or four thousand years. It is somewhat curious to mark >comparative approximation of duration between the lives of a >"Family-Race" and a "Sidereal Year." [ 25,868 years ]...The year >of the Kaliyuga is said to have begun between the 17th and 18th >of February in the year 3,102 B.C. ... " SD II >135 > ... which statements will be a great help during the next couple of months to all of us. >"...the Egyptian Zodiac is between 75 and 80,000 years old ... >the Zodiac of the Greeks is far later...16,984 years old, or up >to the present [1888] 17,082." SD II 436 Well I never! Who would have thought it? What shall we do about it? Does it matter? > >Offered for consideration and comment. > Done. Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:11:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet's effect on US Judiciary Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981018191117.00697eec@mail.eden.com> Have any one gone to the Federal District courts? They still follow the traditional customs imported from England. They seem to be making changes to take advantage of the changing technology. Judge Susan Weber who presided over Paula Jones case will be posting the material from the case at 6.00 am Monday on the web. It looks like the first time a Federal District Court is posting materials on the web. Usually they release only paper which later find their way to the web. This time it is direct to the web. Have we not seen many organizations which claim to have "occult" or "spiritual" backing are still in "quill" age tied to pen and paper. Part of the problem may be ignorance or the fear of the net or both. This is understandable when you find many of the organizations are led by old people which much grey hair and who have not grown up in the computer culture. Items for some thought. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:12:00 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet driving down prices Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981018191200.0076b060@mail.eden.com> Recently I had to order a publication from Govt Printing Office and to my surprise, I learnt that they are offering 35% discount for ordering via web and charging to credit card. If this trend continues, we can see more agressive selling of publications at huge discounts over the web. What surprised me was usually Federal Government is not very efficient. All that is changing and apparently Feds have found the web an usual tool. Could Lewinsky matter had anything to do with it? On the other hand, the "spiritual" organzations are generally behind in these matters. They may be emulating the adeptic ways normal north of the Himalayas. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:47:14 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: reincarnation Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981018234714.00e6a088@mail.eden.com> Here is what I found in SD 1888 Edn. pp 168: It looks like the problem of 777 is still unsolved. mkr ============ Notwithstanding this agreement, many mistakes, owing to this confusion, crept into the earliest teachings. The Races even were occasionally mixed up with the “Rounds” and “Rings,” and led to similar mistakes in “Man.” >From the first the Master had written— “Not being permitted to give you the whole truth, or divulge the number of isolated fractions . . . I am unable to satisfy you.” This in answer to the questions, “If we are right, then the total existence prior to the man-period is 637,” etc., etc. To all the queries relating to figures, the reply was, “Try to solve the problem of 777 incarnations. . . . Though I am obliged to withhold information yet if you should work out the problem by yourself, it will be my duty to tell you so.” But they never were so worked out, and the results were—never-ceasing perplexity and mistakes. ============================================== At 03:43 PM 10/17/1998 -0400, Richard Caruana wrote: >Does anyone know of any references to the number of reincarnations we have >before >reaching the adept level of consciousness. >I am putting together a summary on reincarnation. I seem to have lost my >original >summary which had about two references. I ca't find them now and I son't >remember where exactly to find them. >One was about 700 times the other was about 800 times. >I would like to be able to source these so that others can refer to them. >kindest regards >Richard >caruanar@matra.com.au From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 05:18:34 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: ****Latest Song***** Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981017051834.00feca90@mail.eden.com> >>"How soon will I be holy? How much does this cost, guru?" Morissette sings >>in her opening number BABA, with a face that for a moment takes on >>features of Chucky the Doll." Some of the creative artists are more perceptive than others. In the current culture of gurus (whether by seen or unseen gurus, exploitation of the followers by themselves or by those who claim to be the exclusive mouthpieces /representatives) and every "spiritual" activity justifying passing plates or admission fee or suggested donation for this cause or that cause, and in the great expectation of "spiritual" growth here and now, Morrissette seems to be right. Money is the King in the temporal and spiritual world, it seems, in Kali Yuga. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 05:33:13 +1000 From: Richard Caruana Subject: reincarnation Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981018053313.006acf38@mail.matra.com.au> Does anyone know of any references to the number of reincarnations we have before reaching the adept level of consciousness. I am putting together a summary on reincarnation. I seem to have lost my original summary which had about two references. I ca't find them now and I son't remember where exactly to find them. One was about 700 times the other was about 800 times. I would like to be able to source these so that others can refer to them. kindest regards Richard caruanar@matra.com.au From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 20:52:21 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: reincarnation Message-ID: <7321e629.36293bc5@aol.com> In a message dated 98-10-17 15:43:55 EDT, you write: << Does anyone know of any references to the number of reincarnations we have before reaching the adept level of consciousness. I am putting together a summary on reincarnation. I seem to have lost my original summary which had about two references. I ca't find them now and I son't remember where exactly to find them. One was about 700 times the other was about 800 times. I would like to be able to source these so that others can refer to them. kindest regards >> Sounds to me like some of the stuff the Theosophists were putting out around the 1910s through the 1920s. Unfortunately my books are still packed so I can't find the references either but you might try www.theosophia.org to get connected to their library. Uncle Chuckie From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 20:49:31 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Theosophy Company's 1987 edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE Message-ID: <3629654B.21A1@azstarnet.com> SUBJECT: Theosophy Company's 1987 edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE Of late, I have spent some time comparing the 1987 edition of the VOICE published by The Theosophy Company (CA) with the original 1889 edition of HPB's classic. As pointed out in one of my earlier emails, this Theosophy Company edition (first published 1928) is NOT verbatim with the original VOICE. In fact, the TC edition has more than 600 changes and "corrections". Here are several examples of these changes: On p. 73 of the original VOICE, HPB wrote: > The "great Master" is the term used by *lanoos* or > chelas to indicate one's "Higher Self." The Theosophy Company's 1987 edition reads: > The "great Master" is the term used by > Lanoos or Chelas to indicate the HIGHER SELF. As one can see, there are several changes in this one sentence including deleting a word and adding another. Again, HPB in the original wrote on pp. 74-75: > It stands generally for the 100 years or "age" of Brahma, the > duration of a Kalpa or a period of 4,320,000,000 years. The Theosophy Company's edition reads (p. 5): > It stands generally for the 100 years or "age" of Brahma, the > duration of a Maha-Kalpa or a period of 311,040,000,000,000 years. Again, the 1889 edition, p. 78: > These mystic sounds or the melody heard by the ascetic . . . . The TC edition changes this to (p. 19): > The mystic sounds, or the melody, heard by the ascetic . . . . Again, the original VOICE, p. 87: > *Upadya* is a spiritual perceptor, a Guru. The TC editions reads (p. 49): > *Upadhyaya* is a spiritual preceptor, a Guru. Once, again, the original VOICE reads on p. 82: > Bodhidharma called them in China---from whence the names reached > Tibet---the *Tsung-men* (esoteric) and *Kiau-men* (exoteric school). The TC edition changes this passage to read: (p. 25) > The *Bodhidharma*, Wisdom Religion in China---whence the names reached > Tibet---called them the *Tsung-men* (Esoteric) and *Kiau-men* (Esoteric > school). On pp. x-xi of the original, one finds the following: > . . . (*Bhagavatgita II*. 70). . . . > . . . (*Bhagavatgita II*. 27). . . . The TC edition changes the spelling of this Hindu text and deletes the numbers "70" and "27". *Also the spelling of numerous Sanskrit words are changed throughout the TC edition when compared with the original 1889 edition of the VOICE.* Over the years, The Theosophy Company has prided itself on providing photographic reprints of HPB's original works. Notice what this publisher writes in their 1947 edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE: "With the present printing of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, The Theosophy Company continues its function of providing students and inquirers with unaltered editions of the original literature of the Theosophical Movement. . . . this edition is a perfect facsimile of the original edition and can be relied upon as such." And earlier in the same "Publishers' Preface", pains were taken to point out: "Besides the original edition of 1888---the only one authorized by Madame Blavatsky---several other editions of this work have appeared. One of these, the so-called 'Third and Revised Edition' of 1893, is marred by many thousands of alterations, some of them trivial, some actual mutilations of the original text." And this preface went on to say the following about another edition of the SD: "Except for gratuitous 'corrections' of the author's [Blavatsky's] Sanskrit scholarship. . . . this edition is virtually an accurate reproduction of the original text. Its exact authenticity, however, cannot be determined without laborious comparison with the original." How much of this (Theosophy Company's) "Publishers' Preface" could be equally applied to their own edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE??!! Why are there 600+ changes in this Theosophy Company's edition? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 00:00:49 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Latest Song Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981017000049.006970e8@mail.eden.com> ""How soon will I be holy? How much does this cost, guru?" Morissette sings in her opening number BABA, with a face that for a moment takes on features of Chucky the Doll." Some of the creative artists are more perceptive than others. In the current culture of gurus (whether by seen or unseen gurus, exploitation of the followers by themselves or by those who claim to be the exclusive mouthpieces /representatives) and every "spiritual" activity justifying passing plates or admission fee or suggested donation for this cause or that cause, and in the great expectation of "spiritual" growth here and now, Morrissette seems to be right. Money is the King in the temporal and spiritual world, it seems. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:46:40 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: new Parliament of World Religions Message-ID: <01J2ZYAXKBY09AOAL1@InfoAve.Net> thought people would be interested in this j.e.mead > a new Parliament of the World's Religions will reconvene in > Cape Town, South Africa, December 1-8, 1999. I plan to attend, just like I > attended the one in Chicago in 1993. Try to go, it may be the "right one", > and it could be the last opportunity for change in the world before the end > of the century. > > If you wish more information from the Internet their URL is: > http://www.cpwr.org/iii/parliament1999sa/index.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 07:53:27 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Democrats Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981012075327.006941d4@mail.eden.com> It is in the Democratic administration during the last 3 or more decades, major actions have been taken to restore fairness to immigrants. We are talking immigrants, most of whom are well educated and mostly the cream of the crop from other countries. One of the key ones is, that till Kennedy administration changed immigration laws, it was easy for a white anglo illiterate laborer to immigrate than a non white University Professor due to the miniscule quota given to the latter compared to very large one for the former. Kennedy administration fixed it. Most immigrants today do not know of this. They would not be here but for the above change. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:50:19 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The October HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is Now Online Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981010084310.009ff8f0@imagiware.com> The October HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is now online. It is available at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9810.pdf Other back issues are in that directory: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct The current issue, edited by Dick Slusser, contains: Among the Adepts SECRET DOCTRINE Q & A Hopi Creation Mythology With the Druids Work in Progress Letters Received Outreach Coordinator Needed Issues are in Adobe Acrobat format. If you don't have the software, you can download a free copy of Adobe Acrobat Reader from: http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html For more information on the publication, see it's home page on: http://theosophy.com/hct.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:50:38 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The October HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is Now Online Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981010085022.009f7990@imagiware.com> The October HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is now online. It is available at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9810.pdf Other back issues are in that directory: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct The current issue, edited by Dick Slusser, contains: Among the Adepts SECRET DOCTRINE Q & A Hopi Creation Mythology With the Druids Work in Progress Letters Received Outreach Coordinator Needed Issues are in Adobe Acrobat format. If you don't have the software, you can download a free copy of Adobe Acrobat Reader from: http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html For more information on the publication, see it's home page on: http://theosophy.com/hct.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:50:51 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The October HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is Now Online Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981010085044.009f5cd0@imagiware.com> The October HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is now online. It is available at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9810.pdf Other back issues are in that directory: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct The current issue, edited by Dick Slusser, contains: Among the Adepts SECRET DOCTRINE Q & A Hopi Creation Mythology With the Druids Work in Progress Letters Received Outreach Coordinator Needed Issues are in Adobe Acrobat format. If you don't have the software, you can download a free copy of Adobe Acrobat Reader from: http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html For more information on the publication, see it's home page on: http://theosophy.com/hct.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:31:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Changes Message-ID: Dear All, Changes are happening on the website: --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:39:34 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Message-ID: <000101bdf104$d93786e0$b10e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Oct 6th 1998 Dallas OFFERS Subject THE TASTE OF AVOCADOS If I were again in India and confronted with explaining the taste of an avocado to a North Indian friend, I would send to Bangalore for the avocados they have grown there for the past 60 years and given a real experience. Also 60 years ago there were comparatively few Americans who had ever tasted mangos. And while these are now commonly sold in supermarkets all over the US, the refined taste of the Hafus mangos from Ratnagiri on the Malabar coast (or the Safedas of North India) are something that cannot be described to those who are only able to get the common jungli mangos with their many earthy tastes that are now grown in Mexico and points South, and shipped up North. Subject GIFTS - RECEIVED OR REJECTED An old story concerning Hillel the predecessor to Jesus goes: A man who held a grudge against Hillel approached him one day and offered him a well wrapped, but unexpected package. Hillel sensing that this contained something that was defiling and knowing the man's disposition towards him, asked this donor questions: "Friend, if a person brings a gift and it is accepted, to whom does it belong ? "To the recipient," said the man. "Friend, if the person to whom a gift is offered refuses it, then to whom does the gift belong ? "To the donor," replied the man. "Friend," said Hillel, "I do not accept thy gift." =============================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 22:41:01 +1300 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Vipassana - more fun with days Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981006224101.0079cd60@mail.iprolink.co.nz> The following is a piece written by a New Zealander, Ray Tomes, shortly after completing a 10 day Vipassana Meditation course in May this year. In my view, the kind of transformation wrought by such a course (and by a further 2 of them, as Ray has done) is not unlike that which JRC described in his recent piece called "How to spend a fun day". What they have in common, of course, is the intention and effort to sustain observation and stillness for a very significant period of time. Maybe there's something to learn here .... :-) Murray I did the first Vipassana course in May this year, then served (cooking and such) on one in July and did another one August/September. Before doing these I had long ago (at age 11-13) rejected religions because they didn't substantiate what they taught but seemed to ask for blind faith. However it is clear that I threw the baby out with the bath water. The real goodies were being hidden! I have totally changed my patterns of how I spend my time and what I read since learning Vipassana. The following is [part of] what I typed into my computer shortly after the first course in reply to someone on internet doing a book project about the experience of doing Vipassana. The additional courses have provided just as many new experiences. ===start=== The first day of sitting cross-legged was agony. I am 50 years old and have an old back injury which became extremely painful and my knees and ankles also hurt. I had made a commitment to stay for 10 days and I have always believed in keeping to my commitments. However I could not imagine that I could bear 10 times as much pain and it seemed that there was no hope for completing the course. I approached the assistant teacher with my problem and he suggested sitting with my back to the wall. This was immediately before Goenkaji's first video discourse, and I was enthralled by what he had to say. He described my experience and his style was so refreshing to me that my spirits lifted. Never before had I encountered such wisdom that was consistent with my own experience. I looked forward to future discourses. As the days went by the pain didn't get any better, but then about the 3rd day I was thinking "my leg is in pain" and suddenly the meaning of the words and the experience coincided - my legs were in pain but I was not, I was an observer of my legs in pain. I recognised that this was a technique that I had used at the dentist to avoid panic and pain and from then on I was mostly able to observe the pain without becoming involved in the cyclical chain of avoidance. I enjoyed Goenkaji's 2nd and 3rd discourses also and was struck by the description of the mind as being "full of chattering monkeys and wild horses with the odd rampaging elephant". I know that this is a true description for all people, but I have been considered by my friends to have had an additional dose and to use thinking to excess. It was a real battle to get control of my mind but I was hooked on the idea and very determined. The events of the next few days are now almost a blur. They were so amazing that I cannot relate some of them and what follows is the less spectacular things that happened to me, although they are far beyond my expectations for what I might achieve on the course. These days were a roller-coaster ride. I experienced both highs and lows that exceed anything else that I can compare the experiences to. I visited heaven and hell several times each. It seems that this experience is connected with aspects of my behaviour such as impulsiveness, impatience and not following instructions carefully but rather thinking that I know best. It is also no doubt connected with my determination and dedication to the task at hand. When we had become adjusted to detecting the subtle body sensations I was immediately able to observe old and present injuries and some improvement was noticed. For decades I have suffered from blocked nose and sinuses. I took my awareness up the inside of my nostrels and discovered two pairs of sharp points of pain and observed these for a while. Suddenly two jets of sensation shot very rapidly out through my cheekbones and shortly afterwards another two. I realised that these were my sinus passages and that they had become unblocked. Shortly afterwards the sinuses themselves emptied and my head was much clearer. Later a similar experience happened with my ears when I observed inside them and found the long wriggly passages would suddenly clear and again some further sinuses emptied. These "operations" were repeated perhaps a dozen times each over the remainder of the course and the next 10 days. I soon became aware of sensations in my lower abdomen which relate to some discomfort in my bowels. Observing these sensations relieves the discomfort. As a result of other things the discomfort returns but gradually the repeated easing becomes more established. It seems like this will take time but for the first time in 15 years it seems like the remedy to my bowel problems is within my reach as all visits to doctors have done nothing to ease, let alone reverse, the situation. At times I became very clear of gross sensations and was able to scan my entire body from head to feet and back several times per second. At such times the individual sensations from every part of my body were quite clear and very precisely located so that it seemed like my awareness was very many times greater in a very much smaller time. At other times gross sensations dominated parts of my body and scanning was impossible. I fell into the trap of craving and aversion for these conditions and gave myself a roller-coaster ride being at incredible highs with the most magic energy coursing through me and then within a day being in the depths of despair. My friends had thought it funny that I, an incessant talker, was going to be silent for 10 days. In fact that was not a difficulty. On the 10th day of the course we were allowed to talk. When I discussed the course with other students I was surprised to discover that the subtle body sensations were present all the time without any effort on my part. In rapid succession I was confronted by the effects of certain habits that I had developed and which I had varying degrees of awareness of before. When I interupted someone I had one sensation, when I had critical thoughts about what someone was saying I had another, and when I talked too much without being sensitive to others a third body sensation occurred. These were rapidly established as reliable indicators and before long I was able to stop myself whenever I began to do these things. What I have gained from practicing Vipassana: As a result of observing the nasal and ear passgaes my sinuses have become much clearer and I can smell many things which I have not smelt in decades. A walk up the road a couple of days after the course was a delight. I am now very much more aware of previous bad habits in relation to talking and listening and can mostly catch these quite quickly. Some situations are still quite difficult in this regard but I remind myself that all things can change. My driving has slowed down by about 20 km/h which pleases my wife. I am much more patient with other drivers and much more often look for the possibility to be generous with people who want to change lanes or get out of side streets. I get body sensations if I become impatient or inconsiderate in my driving. I have steadily attacked piles of papers lying around the house and completed or begun jobs which I have long procastinated over. Some of these seemed like huge mountains and required a lot of courage and persistence, but I began to do these things today instead of tomorrow. Every day I do something towards tidying up old messes and mostly catch myself when I am about to create a new one. I have become much more considerate of my wife in the things that I do around the house. In my new found zeal I have at times made mistakes, sometimes quite big ones. This has lead to some suffering, but eventually I realise that I am craving or avoiding something and I am able to move on from the mistake. My impulsiveness and impatience are still there to some extent but it feels like they are diminishing with each painful lesson. Talking with friends and relatives has been much more about real issues rather than avoidance of these. I have tried to temper my enthusiasm and allow my new calmer disposition to be present, listening more and not judging, often knowing things about people before they tell me and knowing when to hold back also. In some cases when others are speaking very critically about third parties then I feel distressed and find it difficult to remain equanimous. This will require further concentration or the prevention of such situations. There are many things that I have worked out by the intellect in my life as I generally have not had faith in the teachings of others. Vipassana has allowed me to directly experience so many things that it has truly created an entirely new reality, or should I say that it has dispelled many illusions. This has not always been comfortable and I know that further discomfort lies ahead but I now feel firmly established in continuing to keep on taking one more step down that road. There have been periods of doubt and confusion, particulary involving the fact that my wife is practicing a different technique. It seems that I am finding an acceptance of this now but I also know that there may be some more lumps in the system. Learning Vipassana has been the greatest gift I have ever received and my life has been changed so much that it can never be the same again. I know that I will give assistance to others who also want to take this ride but otherwise the future seems so much less certain than it did before. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? ===end of article=== -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Alexandria eGroup list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/alex.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm ===end of quote=== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 00:15:15 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Request for Info Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981005001515.006970e8@mail.eden.com> Here is a request I found in theosophy newsgroup. If anyone has info, please send a msg directly to the inquirer. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 05:12:18 GMT From: xramadoss@eden.com (x) Subject: Re: Theosophical Society There is a maillist which has members from all over the world. It is theos-L and you can subscribe to it by sending a msg to LISTSERV@VNET.NET with a single line msg: subscribe theos-L xxxxxxxxx where xxxxxxxxxx is your name. I am taking the liberty of posting your msg to this maillist and hopefully someone will get in touch with you. mkr On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:52:37 +0100, "Dorothy E. Hulme" wrote: >Hello. >This NG never very busy, but... >Is there anyone out there who lives in the NW of England? >I am interested in finding a branch of the society in my area. >TIA. >-- >Dorothy E. Hulme From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:43:20 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1649 Message-ID: <246c43ed.3618ccf8@aol.com> In a message dated 9/29/98 6:53:20 PM, mkr wrote: <> Very much like trying to explain the concept of "color" to a blind person, I would think. -Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:46:40 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1649 Message-ID: <56e06e30.3618cdc0@aol.com> In a message dated 9/29/98 6:53:20 PM, mkr wrote: <> This reminds me of what a Moslem friend once said to me. He said that we are responsible for the act of generosity alone; what the other person chooses to do with the gift is not our responsibility. -Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:15:45 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1649 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981005131545.01123028@mail.eden.com> At 09:44 AM 10/5/1998 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 9/29/98 6:53:20 PM, mkr wrote: > ><to Asian Indians. Indian have never known it let alone tasted it. Any >amount of explanation would be incomplete, at best.>> > >Very much like trying to explain the concept of "color" to a blind person, I >would think. >-Christine You are right. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:16:40 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1649 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981005131640.01123028@mail.eden.com> At 09:57 AM 10/5/1998 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 9/29/98 6:53:20 PM, mkr wrote: > ><of us have to decide for ourselves how we want to act or help whether with >money or food or in other ways. The fact we are atleast aware of the needy >is a good beginning, in my opinion.>> > >This reminds me of what a Moslem friend once said to me. He said that we are >responsible for the act of generosity alone; what the other person chooses to >do with the gift is not our responsibility. >-Christine There is much truth in that. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:47:51 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1653 Message-ID: <7a9c63eb.36193077@aol.com> <> I guess we could call it "keeping up with the Blavatskys"... Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:53:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1649 Message-ID: Cybercmh@aol.com writes >This reminds me of what a Moslem friend once said to me. He said that we are >responsible for the act of generosity alone; what the other person chooses to >do with the gift is not our responsibility. This is the Teaching as I received it. Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 01:44:17 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: How to spend... Message-ID: <36170B31.9049DE3B@gate.net> John, Your post was appreciated and enjoyed. Thank you. -K- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 05:30:38 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World "Spiritual culture" answering some inquiries Message-ID: <000101bdef92$d08b5da0$b70e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Oct 4th 1998 Dear Mark: Thanks comments interjected below Dallas >From:Mark Kusek >Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 12:48 AM >Subject: Re: Theos-World "Spiritual culture" answering some inquiries Hi Dallas, W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Oct 2nd 1998 > > Dear Mark > > Thanks for your comments. > > I believe that "crossing the Abyss" has a special meaning for > some students. But I have not met it as an expression in the > writings of HPB. The abyss needs definition. > > Do you mean perhaps the passage from > > 1. the realm of forms and personality - of selfishness and the > desire for personal gains during this one life we are familiar > with, to > > 2. the realm of impersonality, idealism, virtue, generosity, > assistance, universality and permanence, etc ? No. I'll leave the exposition of the "Abyss" to Jerry (and Alan) as they are wont to use it. This is abstract stuff. It's a Kabbalistic term.You'd have to research HPB's view on Kabballa to fit it into your view. DALLAS understood =============================== I was responding more directly to your statement about selfishness. I don't see selfishness solely in a pejorative sense. To me it also defines the de facto state of waking experience in the lower quaternary. Because of identification with the seeming integrity of these elements, or aggregates as Buddhists call them, which develops as a result of the normal course of living in a society in the physical world, we become "personalities." This identification is as "one among many." It is completely natural, has a temporal and social context to it and so also has as a defining characteristic, a sense of separation, illusory as it may be. This is the "normal" state of affairs in the waking world. Regardless of any social context that seeks to measure its moral qualities, it is essentially "selfish" in the sense that it defines its own boundaries by a perceived sense of "self" and others. This is the "personality" locus or the "Personality Ray." Dallas, you are IT, when you're being "Dallas," and I'm IT when I'm being "Mark." N'cest pa? ===================== OUI, C'est vrai. That's what I was trying to say. It's more or less stating the obvious. My position is just a matter of including this de facto view as well as any social pejorative one. DALLAS Understood - when embodied and in the waking state the personal consciousness is selfish and isolated -- the "aggregates" or "samskaras /skandhas" as I understand it are those "Monads" upon which we have imposed either our thought, feeling or will, and therefore become for a longer or shorter time (under Karma) "attached" to us as a center. As I understand it the Buddhistic and also the Theosophical approach to this situation is to try to harmonize all karmic links so as to become an impersonal force for good alone - in other words "to become karma-less." I would also observe that "Consciousness" per se is in itself separate from any state that "we" may be in, and consequently is a unitary "thread of being" on which or in which, all experience is recorded and seen. ====================================== The statement about a "messiah complex" refers to those people who, in the course of their spiritual and moral development, sometimes assume a subtle sense of superiority or elitism. It's typical of the zeal of recent converts, where they feel a need to evangelize, "save" others or tell everybody what they've experienced or learned. They often pass through a phase where they consider themselves somehow, not entirely "personal" anymore (while they yet maintain, or are forced to maintain, when they wake each morning, the very mechanism which defines it). It is sometimes supported by their group affiliation. No doubt there are alchemical adjustments happening intra-psychically. I just find their subtle sense of denial mildly amusing. They usually have an experience of their own limitations soon enough and can get very confused, frustrated and humbled when faced with the obvious fact that they are still, all too human. It's a delicate time, but indicative that an inner process of spiritual transformation has begun. Somehow, a contact has reached the fringes of the conscious personal field from deeper within it and is actively restructuring core identity patterns and referents. An active and experiential mystery expresses ITSELF in the very core of personality. Esoterically, this corresponds to the Christian initiation of "Baptism," or rebirth by the "descent" of the Holy Spirit into a person. "Descent into" is perceived by the recipient as an mystic ontological illumination from within the core of their sense of conscious personal identity. They are "reborn in Christ," by this mystic Presence of the Spirit (or LOGOS) now consciously informing (and transforming) the identic reality of who "THEY ARE". "Boom," a light turns on, a sun (Son) appears in the darkness within "you," and "IT's" gravity now makes "you" orbit and relate to "IT," instead of the previous sense of the integrity of personality with unconscious darkness at it's core that used to be the center of conscious identification. I don't know any other way to say it except perhaps with poetry or symbols. DALLAS I understand what you say and mean - and I would agree that in some cases it can become another state of selfishness with the added confusion of thinking that one is important, and with enthusiasm one starts off doing things without truly apprehending the ultimate consequences - perhaps one might characterize this with the "dangers of a little knowledge." On the other hand it is better to try to do some good, however limited one's perspective than to become inert. > > The "spiritual" union that preserves individuality happens at the > level > of the Causal Body. The higher initiations eventuate in the > dissolution > of the Causal vehicle. > > DALLAS > > Well it is a good idea to see how this is defined. On p. 74 of > the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, HPB defines it as, in part : > > "This "body" which is no body either subjective or objective, but > BUDDHI, the Spiritual Soul...is the direct cause of Sushupti > condition leading to the Turya state, the highest state of > Samadhi. It is called KARANOPADHI [ see SD I 157, KEY 121-2, > 136 ] "the basis of the Cause," by the Taraka Raj Yogis...Buddhi > alone could not be called a "Causal Body," but becomes so in > conjunction with Manas, the incarnating Entity or EGO." T. Glos, > p. 74 OK. A lot of fancy sounding foreign words. What do they mean to your experience? DALLAS Their only value is to show that those concepts were known and current in antiquity - an antiquity of study of which Theosophy, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism , etc., etc. are all parts. Since Theosophy was "recorded" for many peoples with various historical antecedents, this may mean more to them than to us with our limited Euro-American education. We may have to meet and discuss matters with others who have their own antique backgrounds - this can give us the facility of dealing with them with greater ease if we know those ideas and words. ============================================== > I do not see, logically, how "higher initiations ( Of what kind, > where ? ) would cause the dissolution of the "Causal body." If > anything they would tend to spiritualize and reinforce it in the > scheme that HPB describes. Yes, for a while, however long that cycle of necessity is. But then something else happens and it may or may not be perceived as logical. Think of it this way. When the long cycles of experience in the world of incarnation have developed in you the capacity to be conscious on that Causal level, you eventually experience a naturally ordained "initiation' whereby the locus of your consciousness shifts to establish the sense of identity there. To put it metaphorically, you become transfigured as "the Anointed" or "the Christ." Your fundamental sense of identity is changed. Then, after cycles of experience and action from that state, and the concomitant aspiration for union with "THAT which is still higher and ALL that is ONE with THAT" (remember Jesus always said things to the effect of "If you see me, you see Him who sent me," "I and my Father are one," and The Father worketh hitherto and I work, etc.") there eventuates the capacity of conscious experience or identification with the Monad (the Father which is in Heaven"). Another naturally ordained experience and shift of the locus of conscious identification occurs. DALLAS I am in agreement with what you describe. ======================================= These higher initiations are a process in which the "Christ" ascends to the "Father." This is all metaphoric in Christian terms, but the effect of this esoterically is said to be the dissolution of the Causal body and absorption of consciousness into the Monad. This is not to say that the Monad ever loses the capability to vibrate, create the vehicle at will and descend again to appear, experience or work on the Causal level. The Monadic Ray consciousness is just now beyond the necessity for it. Just as some of the Masters are said to exist on inner planes and to no longer need to incarnate physically, so too, at higher initiations, the consciousness of the Monadic ray no longer needs to hold the locus of identity on the Causal level to exist. It has gained/merited the shift of experience to the higher consciousness of the Monad per se. It, as a "separate" individuality disappears. The characteristic that defines the mayavic state of individuality (i.e., the Causal vehicle or true EGO) is dissolved. Full cycle return. The monad is One. It is not "one among many." Monas Monadum. The Monad of Monads. This is a total Mystery. You're literal devotion to the letter of HPB is often laudable, but can also become an impediment to the conscious experience of the Mystery of identity within you. The result of faith in the "letter of the Law" is a continual sustenance of the separating experience of self (you) and other (the Monad You Are). Necessary for a season, perhaps, but always carrying with it this conditional limitation. When Jesus was on the cross crucified, there was a moment when he let go, so to speak. It is the part of the Gospel where he says "my God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" Without that experience of being totally "alone," and detaching from an identification as "other," he could not experience the initiation whereby he becomes "All-One." It is said to be the moment of complete and utter abandonment. These are the sequence of higher initiations I was referring to. There are several books in Theosophical literature that detail these esoteric interpretations of Mystic Christianity. They might be helpful to you or provide another point of view to supplement your considerable erudition and understanding. Maybe you're already familiar with them. And thanks to you too. There are here more points of agreement than otherwise. Dal ===================================== Regards, Mark -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 10:50:35 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: How to spend a fun day. Message-ID: <001001bdeeee$efdff160$12e004d0@scan1.montana.com> When an old indian first agreed to show me a few things about weather, about wind and plants and animals, he told me I needed to learn how to listen. He told me that people had such continually noisy minds that almost no one was able to actually hear anything in the world. He didn't think people actually paid *attention* to each other, let alone anything else in the world around them. That they were even unable to spend many minutes alone in their own minds ... preferring to have continual noise, TV, radio, stereo, anything in the background rather than be stuck in silence with themselves. That even when they were wide awake people existed in something resembling a dream state. So the actual way I was supposed to learn how to listen (and the idea appealed to me because it just sounded so damn creative) was to do what he called "hearing a day" - to go into the mountains, sit under a tree somewhere, and remain wide awake, and motionless, for 24 hours. He bet me I couldn't do it. He also told me not to bother trying to BS him - cause he'd *know* if I managed to do it. Didn't know what he was talking about - how hard could such a thing be? I started around noon one day ... after little more than three hours I was almost going nuts. My mind was racing and I came up with a hundred excuses why what I was doing was stupid, and almost just got up and blew the whole thing off. After four or five hours though, things kinda settled down, and I started getting really - well, *quiet* inside. Started to get a little about what he was talking about. And once I was no longer blurred by my own thoughts, a sort of veil lifted - and I started really noticing the world. The immense number of subtle changes that were happening during the course of the day. The way the plants changed mood as evening approached. Watched a hawk hunting field mice. After awhile I noticed that the place I was sitting had kind of accepted my presence ... and things that generally scatter and hide at the approach of humans started accepting me as no more important than part of the tree. Little animals scurried around. A small herd of deer crossed a path less than 50 feet away - noticing me, but not as a threat. And then I hit the Zone - total silence inside - watched night descend with its own rythym. heard the huge transition between day-life and night-life. The many animals that quieted down at night, and the many others that awoke. I started feeling a whole global range of sensation - perception became three dimensional ... the sun didn't "rise and set" ... the *earth* revolved, and I swear I *felt* myself sitting on a round globe, and *felt* its rotation in almost a visceral way. I heard wind, but not as it *effects* .. the sound of rustling leaves, but rather felt it as masses of air moving through the thick atmosphere, like bubbles in a stream. Almost fell asleep a few times, but managed to stay awake even in the dead of night. Noticed this one place, just before dawn's first approach, when even the night sounds had ceased - and it was totally silent, time seemed to stop. I could not tell where I stopped and the world started. But there was almost a palpable feeling of - well, of a new day *gathering* itself. And then, before the sky had even begun to lighten, I heard what had to be one of the most remarkable and beautiful sounds in the world: The first chirp of a morning bird. Just one single note in the center of a vast silence. And then all hell broke loose - the next hour felt like someone had turned a computer on, and an immeasurably large operating system was initializing its systems and booting its kernal. Species after species woke up, started making noises, started interacting with others. The plants changed. The air changed, and when the first ray of sunlight finally hit the side of my face I *felt* it as a physical object. By the time noon came around, as tired and hungry as I was, it was very difficult to leave. There was *so* much the was still revealing itself to me - *so* much about the world, and the life living on it, that I had been so totally unaware of. It felt like I could sit there for days and still only be understanding but the barest bit of what I had always just taken for for granted. But that day permanently changed not only my relationship with the natural world - but, as I went about my life, changed how I heard people too. In fact, the next day, going to work, going out with friends afterwards, I was almost stunned at how very much I had been oblivious to. Noticed that with just a little center of silence inside - the equivilent of an inner "ear" ... that people could not *help* but expose their entire selves, their true intentions, with every word they spoke - even if the words (as words so often are) were spoken to delibrately mask those very things - from others as well as from themselves. Like there is some wholly different level of life and experience, hidden but very real, that is continually going on underneath modern civilization - indeed, that civilization floats on as a small boat on a large ocean. My entire judgement of people changed. Some that I had never noticed I suddenly discovered were *aware* of this layer. Some that looked wholly unremarkable, upon hearing their voices, I understood to be exceedingly rare and magnificent at heart. Some that seemed weak were suddenly understood to be powerful - others that had great apparent power ... in business, in society ... exposed themselves as being almost hollow inside, like but a few simple words could collapse their entire foundations. Few undertstood themselves in either direction. There were many brilliant souls who had no idea they were brilliant, and many who were empty and undeveloped inside who thought themselves the greatest thing on earth. But a few ... a rare few ... were *really* remarkable. They *understood*. They knew and *acknowledged* where their stars shone, and knew and ackowledged where their gems still needed polishing. No one could convince them that were were more than they were - but no one could convince them they were less. And this seemed to have nothing to do with age, class, race, social status or wealth. These few seem to be scattered through the entire vast fabric of humanity, like gemstones sewn randomly into a large quilt. The other thing that day gave me was an appreciation for religion and philosophy. At the root of all of it, I think, is a person or persons that entered the Silence, and heard the world - heard its enormity, its vastness, its diversity - and tried to put it into words, tried to name it, tried to express it to those who had not heard it in a way that would allow them an entrance into it. Having myself heard but the barest fraction of it, I at least won the gift of being able to appreciate those whose listening had extended over years, who had entered it deeply and passed portal after portal on that interior path, an apprectiation for those centuries old traditions that had accumulated the work and insights of countless nameless adventurers in that amazing interiority - as someone who has tried to paint with oils ... even if they are not particularly good ... can understand the paintings of masters, the skill, the nuances, in an entirely different way. While *followers* of traditions, *students* of those writings, focus heavily on the knowledge aspect of things ... the *founders* themselves would *never* say that the writing, the concepts, have any importance at all in and of themselves. They would never claim that they had done anything other than faintly hint at the actuality of that immensity. Would never try to claim that what they wound up writing and saying was not miniscule in relation to what they did not, and *could not* say. And were you to ask them how *they* would want their writings used, I think that most of them would say: "Do not bother yourselves about understanding the *letter* of my words, for that is only my own small self, rather try, try with all your heart and soul, to catch the *spirit* behind them, for that is much bigger than I. Do not tell me you've memorized countless passages, do not think, with pride, that *I* care, or would take sides in, some mindless battles over the "real" meaning of my words - my words have *no* meaning, they are solely intended to suggest an *entrance* to a world that is the *essence* of meaning. Do not tell me you've fully grasped my concepts, tell me you've entered the *world* in which they were born. Do not put on a mask of humility in front of me - your humility is nothing but a cross-dressing arrogance. Do not look at me as a "Master" - I *loathe* such concepts - they are untrue ... I have seen but a small piece of the truth and immensity of this universe, and understand that I am *nothing* - but if you crystallize a concept of me as "master" in your mind, that idea - and the entire context it is but a small part of - effectively bars the door the to ranges of your own inner awareness required to access the infinite layers of the Real. I am not a Master, and my writings are not the truth. I am a guy standing on the side of a road, pointing. Do not look at me. Look at the direction to which I point." Do not waste time examining the clothes I'm dressed in, or the intricacies of the hand doing the pointing, rather, examine your backpack - make sure you have gathered what you need for the journey, and gotten rid of everything superfluous to it. Do not get down on your knees in front of me - understanding and honoring *me* is not the point. Get up on your feet, and walk." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:03:40 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Abyss Message-ID: W. Dallas TenBroeck writes >I believe that "crossing the Abyss" has a special meaning for >some students. But I have not met it as an expression in the >writings of HPB. The abyss needs definition. It is defined in Kabbalist writings, from which it mostly derives. Download my "Keys" and read same for more ... Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 02:02:06 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: And a religion is? Message-ID: kymsmith@micron.net writes >And most of Theosophy is based on faith, and faith alone - there is no >"proof" of the "Masters," "Atlantis," "Lemurians," "giants," >"reincarnation," "karma," "God," "vampires," "rounds," "root races," etc. > >To me, there is little difference between Theosophy and other "organized >religions" - except maybe, that Theosophists simply won't admit it nor pick >a particular weekday in which to show up your neighbor with your fine garb. Sounds about right to me. Alan (fine garb not available) :0) Neighbours shown up for a fee ... --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 20:31:16 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The October THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981001202935.00a33310@imagiware.com> The October issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Magical Equilibrium," by Eliphas Levi "Thoughts on the Masters," by Eldon Tucker "The Future," by John R. Crocker "Using Habit Force," by Jake Jaqua "Rumors and Reality," by Eldon Tucker "The Messianic Force," by Grace F. Knocke "Fundamental Beliefs of Buddhism, by H. S. Olcott "More News From Blavatsky.Net," by Reed Carson "Book on Mahatma Letters Now Online," by Alan Donant "Why Does Katherine Tingley Oppose Hypnotism," by A Student "Masters and Hierarchies," by Sy Ginsburg THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 12:10:49 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: And a religion is? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981002121049.007bca70@pophost.micron.net> Alan wrote: >Because [organised] religions, being based upon "faith," allow us to >believe two contradictory statements at the same time. For example, in >Christianity, God [viewed as a "person"] is singular and plural at the >same time. Being a male-dominated religion, this is perfectly logical. Theosophy, that is, the fundamental version based on HPB alone, seems to be as much as an "organized religion" as Christianity. There are beings one is supposed to believe in and pay homage to; prayer in the form of not praying; belief in a non-personal God; belief in reincarnation; belief in karma; headquarters that dictate rules and "correct" interpretations of HPB (kinda like Rome); specific laws to live by and descriptions of "punishments" should one live another way; and people who are looked upon as "saints," "prophets," "apostles". . .. And even though HPB, a woman, is given the so-called credit for the delivery of Theosophy to a greater audience - Theosophy was and still is very much male-dominated. And most of Theosophy is based on faith, and faith alone - there is no "proof" of the "Masters," "Atlantis," "Lemurians," "giants," "reincarnation," "karma," "God," "vampires," "rounds," "root races," etc. To me, there is little difference between Theosophy and other "organized religions" - except maybe, that Theosophists simply won't admit it nor pick a particular weekday in which to show up your neighbor with your fine garb. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 16:27:28 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World "Spiritual culture" answering some inquiries Message-ID: <000101bdee5c$3bb288c0$890e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Oct 2nd 1998 Dear Mark Thanks for your comments. I believe that "crossing the Abyss" has a special meaning for some students. But I have not met it as an expression in the writings of HPB. The abyss needs definition. Do you mean perhaps the passage from 1. the realm of forms and personality - of selfishness and the desire for personal gains during this one life we are familiar with, to 2. the realm of impersonality, idealism, virtue, generosity, assistance, universality and permanence, etc ? The only way that I can see this is by using the Theosophical division of the 7-fold Man in 7-fold Nature. 1. The immortal, monadic and "higher" Nature is said to be a triune UNITY consisting of : ATMA, BUDDHI, MANAS (or SPIRIT-Wisdom-Mind conjoined) and is often spoken of as the permanent INDIVIDUALITY. Note, however that Atma-Buddhi is said to be the Monad in manifestation [ SD II 24 ]. The Monad is technically only ATMA, and it is not correct to say "your Atma," or "my Atma" since Atma is universal. The term "the HIGHER SELF" has been used by HPB ("Transactions," pp. 66-76) and by Mr. Judge to indicate the conjoint nature of the Monad in each human being. It is said to be the "parent" of the embodied mind, which for us is "Ahankara" the sense of "I-ness" and of separateness. HPB uses the concept of "rays" emanating from the ONE PARAMATMA to convey the fact that in manifestation each least particle of "matter" has a resident "ray" of the ONE SPIRIT in, behind and around it. I admit that this is a statement that is difficult to understand, as it is metaphysical. [ see SD I 570-573 ] Out of manifestation it is the ever unknown, boundless, infinite, the ABSOLUTE [ SD I 58-9 347 480 613 II 42-3 239 353 545 ] As I said in my posting, yesterday, HPB also states that the Monad (Atma-Buddhi) is not non-essed or annihilated by its reabsorption into the ONE ALL at the end of a period of manifestation when Pralaya or Nirvana set in. The Law of Karmic continuity demands that all the effort already made by individual Monads in their working through the many "personalities" be retained, and that when the new manifestation begins the awakening of all the beings necessary to the continuation of evolution be done in a systematic way. HPB explains this in detail [ see SD I 152 to 205 ] and elsewhere as in the several numbered points beginning SD I 272 onwards to p. 300. 2. The evanescent, "lower" personality [ in which we all live now] is said to be 4-fold and consists of 1. the Kama (desire and passions), 2. Jiva (or life-principle everywhere in Nature and often referred as "the breath of Life", 3. the Astral Body (electro-magnetic pattern body upon which all the atoms, molecules, cells and other structures of the Physical body (4th) are arranged in the order that Karma designs for them. If you look at the entire process of evolution, it is the evolution of self-consciousness out of Intelligence that is general and untutored. From the very outset of a new evolutionary period HPB sketches for us the successive stages of the gradual immaterialization that occurs - from the outskirts of tenuous "spiritualized" matter down to our gross stage in which we are. We see then that in the "beginning" (or rather the reawakening of the Kosmos out of its Pralayic 'sleep') the 'monadic essence,' unformed and chaotic, differentiation has, each particle of it, the assignment of a core (or Monad) of intelligent Spirit-Wisdom to assist in its self-development. It is there that each Monad newly constituted, begins its long and arduous pilgrimage. This is most carefully explained in SD II 167 - see also SD II 79-80. 93-4, 103, 241, 246; and I 207-210, 288fn. This HIGHER SELF - an already perfected Monad oversees but does not interfere, ever, in the free choice of the developing Monad under its tutelage. We are all in such a situation. But I also agree that it is difficult to understand this. Puzzling in fact. Why are we discontented ? Why do we not know more ? What should we be doing ? Are we "giving up our freedom" by putting our personalities under some restraints ? If so, what restraints are reasonable to adopt ? What about the "pretender with a Messianic complex ?" How is that to be answered ? I would say that if we can conceive of such a concept or suggestion we ought to first determine what "we" are. Next what do "Messiahs" do ? Is that state or responsibility repugnant ? If so, why ? Do we doubt that we could achieve that if we set our will to it ? If so why ? I ask these questions sincerely because I think if we sit down and answer them honestly to ourselves we will get to know a lot about our own talents and disabilities. But we have to be both sincere and honest in such a self-analysis. I think it is easy to fool ourselves and to shy away from disciplines that we at present think are restrictive to the "freedoms" that we like so much. It would be interesting however to take a look at a theoretical person who either does or does not adopt the answers that we may derive from such an analysis. And that will also tell us a lot about ourselves. Do we dare ? What is it that we fear, if we fear at all ? You mention the Buddha's 8-fold Path - is open to all who TRY. The VOICE OF THE SILENCE is full of valuable challenges and injunctions that make us realize that we can achieve if we persist and dare. What is it in us that is the Hero ? And what in us is the sybarite that revels in luxury and careless disregard of other's trials and woes - which he or she could heal or assuage? These are some of the ideas that your questions have evoked. Perhaps they help to express my reasons more clearly - at least to myself. Best wishes, Dal >From: Behalf Of Mark Kusek >Sent: Thursday, October 01, 1998 5:02 PM >Subject: Re: Theos-World "Spiritual culture" answering some inquiries Jerry & Dallas wrote: > > >All selfishness must be eliminated from the lower nature > >[personal mind] before its divine state of contemplation and > >impartiality can be reached. So long as the smallest selfish or > >personal desire - even for spiritual attainment for one's own > >sake -- remains, so long will the desired result elude and be > >put off. > > This sounds like the requirements for Crossing the Abyss. I submit further that it simply can't be done. Selfishness is the defining characteristic of the personal nature. To be conscious in the personal vehicles necessitates experiencing the mayavic illusion of separate individuality, the human experience of emotion, passion, thought and identification as "one (multiple) among many". Eliminate that and the personal individual is no more than a pretender with a messiah complex. Buddha taught that "Right Desire" was part of the Noble Eightfold Path and that desire for enlightenment was just such a "Right Desire." It's a double bind. If you try to be spiritual for the sake of others, but don't include yourself, you are subtly proud. If on the other hand you try to be spiritual for "All Mankind's benefit," but imagine that to exclude your own self, you're delusional. The true union is something else. > >The process of evolution up to a conscious and voluntary reunion > >with the Divine [ in understanding and thought - which does not > >erase the individual in any way ] includes a successive elevation > >from rank to rank of power and usefulness. > > Why do you think that the individual is not erased in any way? > What about the dew drop sinking into the sea? What about > Buddhist anatma? I think our individuality is purely mayavic. The "spiritual" union that preserves individuality happens at the level of the Causal Body. The higher initiations eventuate in the dissolution of the Causal vehicle. DALLAS Well it is a good idea to see how this is defined. On p. 74 of the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, HPB defines it as, in part : "This "body" which is no body either subjective or objective, but BUDDHI, the Spiritual Soul...is the direct cause of Sushupti condition leading to the Turya state, the highest state of Samadhi. It is called KARANOPADHI [ see SD I 157, KEY 121-2, 136 ] "the basis of the Cause," by the Taraka Raj Yogis...Buddhi alone could not be called a "Causal Body," but becomes so in conjunction with Manas, the incarnating Entity or EGO." T. Glos, p. 74 I do not see, logically, how "higher initiations ( Of what kind, where ? ) would cause the dissolution of the "Causal body." If anything they would tend to spiritualize and reinforce it in the scheme that HPB describes. Dal. ====================================== Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 20:35:26 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The October THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981001203128.00a30e30@imagiware.com> The October issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Magical Equilibrium," by Eliphas Levi "Thoughts on the Masters," by Eldon Tucker "The Future," by John R. Crocker "Using Habit Force," by Jake Jaqua "Rumors and Reality," by Eldon Tucker "The Messianic Force," by Grace F. Knocke "Fundamental Beliefs of Buddhism, by H. S. Olcott "More News From Blavatsky.Net," by Reed Carson "Book on Mahatma Letters Now Online," by Alan Donant "Why Does Katherine Tingley Oppose Hypnotism," by A Student "Masters and Hierarchies," by Sy Ginsburg THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 20:35:44 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The October THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: <4.0.2.19981001203139.008e6660@imagiware.com> The October issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Magical Equilibrium," by Eliphas Levi "Thoughts on the Masters," by Eldon Tucker "The Future," by John R. Crocker "Using Habit Force," by Jake Jaqua "Rumors and Reality," by Eldon Tucker "The Messianic Force," by Grace F. Knocke "Fundamental Beliefs of Buddhism, by H. S. Olcott "More News From Blavatsky.Net," by Reed Carson "Book on Mahatma Letters Now Online," by Alan Donant "Why Does Katherine Tingley Oppose Hypnotism," by A Student "Masters and Hierarchies," by Sy Ginsburg THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 21:32:29 EDT From: JDJ91043@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1648 Message-ID: Thank you to those of you willing to share this information. I have been exposed to Theosophy for about 5 years. I thoroughly enjoy reading the discussions, debates and other valuable information that is shared on THEOS-L DIGEST. Much of Blavatsky's work is extremely difficult to understand. Many of you have an excellent ability to condense your thoughts and share them with all of us. I enjoy reading your philosophy and assimilating it for myself. "There is no religion higher than truth" is what caught my attention in the first place. I am a seeker of truth as I understand it. What was true when I was in organized religion has been replaced with a greater truth. The more enlightend I become the more open I remain. Speak your truth and allow others to receive it or file it for later retrieval. When the student is ready the teacher will come. Thanks again. JDJ91043@AOL.COM From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 23:44:00 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1648 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980930234400.00dc2fec@mail.eden.com> Some years ago when theos-l was started by John E Mead who had the foresight, very few saw the far reaching nature of e-mail as a communication tool with great potential. Glad that we are able to exchange our ideas and discuss them with no one acting as a censor or intermediary or expert or as an authority on theosophy or HPB or anything else. Each one of us however learned or dumb, we are contributing to the understanding of all of us. Who needs experts? You have hit the nail on its head when you said: "The more enlightend I become the more open I remain." That is the key for anyone who is really searching for Truth otherwise even when Truth stares at you, you may not see it. Let us keep ourself open so that when truth shows us we can see and feel and understand it. mkr At 09:39 PM 9/30/98 -0400, you wrote: >Thank you to those of you willing to share this information. I have been >exposed to Theosophy for about 5 years. I thoroughly enjoy reading the >discussions, debates >and other valuable information that is shared on THEOS-L DIGEST. >Much of Blavatsky's work is extremely difficult to understand. Many of you >have >an excellent ability to condense your thoughts and share them with all of us. >I enjoy >reading your philosophy and assimilating it for myself. "There is no religion >higher >than truth" is what caught my attention in the first place. I am a seeker of >truth as I >understand it. What was true when I was in organized religion has been >replaced with >a greater truth. The more enlightend I become the more open I remain. Speak >your truth >and allow others to receive it or file it for later retrieval. When the >student is ready the teacher will come. > >Thanks again. > >JDJ91043@AOL.COM > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 06:30:46 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: "Spirituaal culture" answering some inquiries Message-ID: <000201bded3f$b46e6c20$9a0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Oct 1st 1998 Dallas offers: Some months ago passages from AN EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY were quoted in part and ended in the following: "The object of the student is to let the light of that SPIRIT shine through the lower coverings [of the personality.]" A few questioned the meaning of "spiritual cultivation." From the EPITOME we can cull the following ideas. This "spiritual culture" is only attainable as the grosser interests, passions, and demands of the flesh are subordinated to the interests, aspirations and needs of the higher nature; and this is a matter of both system and established law. The SPIRIT can only become the ruler when the firm intellectual admission is made that IT alone is. And it is the WHOLE of Nature. All selfishness must be eliminated from the lower nature [personal mind] before its divine state of contemplation and impartiality can be reached. So long as the smallest selfish or personal desire - even for spiritual attainment for one's own sake -- remains, so long will the desired result elude and be put off. When a man or woman undertakes this training systematically, clear insight into the immaterial, spiritual world and one's own interior faculties is attained - as a living fact, or truth. And this can be grasped readily just as our physical senses grasp the events of sense, or our mental faculty grasps reason and logical statements. Patanjali, the ancient Indian psycho-philosopher calls it the faculty of "looking directly upon ideas." He implies that their testimony as to the validity of a proposition is as trustworthy as that of any scientist or philosopher who honestly and sincerely compares his findings with those of his fellows in their respective fields. During the course of such self-induced and self-directed "spiritual training," those who engage in it acquire a perception of, and control over, various forces already present in Nature, which are unknown to the average person. They thus become able, when occasion warrants, to perform works which appear to be "miraculous" - though really, they are but the result of applying the deeper, or wider knowledge, of some law of Nature. Many of these are detailed in "Patanjali's Yoga Sutras." [ Mr. Judge provides a translation of these along with valuable notes for students to consult. - published by Theosophy Company, 245 W 33rd St., Los Angeles, Ca., 90007 ] The testimony of such persons, along with their possession and application of such powers challenges candid examination from every inquiring mind. For those who are interested in these matters, as a preliminary, a knowledge of the fundamental constitution of Nature, physical, psychic, mental and spiritual is needed. [ Such books as "The Key to Theosophy" of "The Ocean of Theosophy" ought to be read and studied, so that the student equips himself with the necessary knowledge of Karma, Reincarnation, the Seven-fold nature of Man and his Universe, the "Goal" of all Evolution, and the means to attain to that - which are being offered in outline herewith. The process of evolution up to a conscious and voluntary reunion with the Divine [ in understanding and thought - which does not erase the individual in any way ] includes a successive elevation from rank to rank of power and usefulness. The most exalted beings still in the flesh are known as Sages, Magi, Rishis, Brothers, Master of Wisdom, Mahatmas, etc... They are greatly concerned with the preservation at all times of the wisdom of the world, its evolution, its potential as regards the Whole, and, as regards every individual man or woman. When cycles permit, this knowledge is extended and diffused so that its influence attracts the inquiring mind of those who aspire to know more of themselves - as a Divine Being -- their environment and their potentials. When such a Union with one's own inner Divine is achieved all events and experiences of each incarnation will become known. Regarding the process of spiritual development Theosophy teaches: 1. that the essence of the process is securing supremacy in one's life to the Highest Nature that is already in our conscious awareness, and which some call vaguely "the spiritual element of man's nature." 2. This is attainable along four lines: A Selfishness is to be eradicated in all forms and ideas, and a broad, generous, brotherly sympathy, is to be firmly rooted as the practice of doing active good for others. B The cultivation of the inner man by the use of meditation and seeking to commune with the Inner Divine, and the practice in personal life of the disciplines outlined in "Patanjali's Yoga Sutras" - "the incessant striving to live an ideal life." C Actively controlling the "fleshly appetites" and selfish, personal desires - all lower, material interests being deliberately subordinated to the needs of the "Higher, Spiritual Life." D The careful and attentive performance of every duty of one's personal life, without any desire for a "reward." Leaving any results out of the question as a motive for their doing - as suggested and urged by Krishna on his pupil Arjuna in the "Bhagavad Gita." 3. While all the above is performable by any seriously disposed individual guided by a sense of duty and his Conscience, there is yet a still higher plane of spiritual attainment. History records in fragments, traces of specific courses in training, physical, intellectual and spiritual, by which the internal faculties of every man and woman can be aroused and then developed. These are known in full to Theosophy which records them as part of the history of the development of humanity. 4 The extension of this process results in Adeptship, Mahatmaship and, or the states of becoming a Sage, a Rishi, or a Dhyan Chohan and finally a Buddha. Those exalted sages have all reached their condition by laborious efforts, protracted over many lives of hard labor and discipline, marked by many degrees of initiation. And beyond those so named, there are many more stages and conditions of spiritual attainment and service to others in the Universal scheme of spiritual exaltation that provides a "cause" for the existence of our UNIVERSE. It is an ever increasing approach to the ultimate DIVINE. The rationale of spiritual development then includes: 1. The process takes place entirely within the individual. Within each individual are the motive, effort, and the results from making one's self increasingly close to one's interior Higher Self. Results are all derived from this increasing closeness to the Higher Self along the lines of self-induced evolution guided by a self-enlightened mind. 2 Howsoever personal and interior this process may be, it is not unaided, and in fact, is only possible because of the Higher Self [ the SPIRITUAL RAY ] resident in each person as the source of its Being. Increasing communion during waking life is the supreme source of all strength of purpose. Concerning the degree of progress through successive incarnations it holds that: 1. Even a mere intellectual acquaintance with Theosophic doctrines has great value in fitting an individual for a step upwards in the rest of this life, and, succeeding ones, as it gives impulse in that direction. 2 Still more is to be gained by a career of duty, self-sacrifice and assistance to others - treating all as brothers in fact, and extending benevolence in one's daily life to all. 3 Greater advance is achieved by practicing the several means suggested or outlined above in regard to spiritual culture and the process of regular consultation with one's HIGHER SELF - the SPIRITUAL BEING resident within. 4 In the process of general evolution, each individual and each "race" reaches a point called "the Moment of Choice" - it is a period when they decide for themselves by a deliberate and conscious choice between eternal life or death. And that peculiar choice is the right of every free soul. It cannot be exercised until the individual has realized the reality of the SOUL (Mind-being) within himself, and until that Soul has attained some measure of self-consciousness in the body. The "Moment of Choice" is not a fixed period in time, but it is made up of all choices made from moment to moment in one's daily living. It cannot come unless all previous lives have led up to it. Any individual can hasten this "moment of choice" under the law of the ripening of Karma. Should one fail to choose right, one is not wholly condemned. For the economy of Nature provides that he shall again and again have the opportunity of choice, when the moment arises for the mass of Egos, that make up a "race" as a whole, reaches the "moment of choice" for the whole. After that the wave of reincarnation sweeps those Egos into fresh circumstances relative to their chosen progress. The race having "blossomed" it now tends, as a physical "race," towards its dissolution. A few individuals of it will have outstripped its average progress and attained Adeptship or Mahatmaship. The main body having chosen aright pass into a subjective condition, there to await the return and influx of the life-wave into the next "globe" when they become the forerunners of the races to incarnate there. The deliberate choosers of evil, whose lives are passed in great spiritual wickedness (for evil done for the sheer love of it), sever their connection with the Divine Spirit [Monad - Atma-Buddhi] within and it forever abandons the personality or incarnated ego. At the next Manvantara, that Divine Spark will probably begin again the long pilgrimage of experience, being cast into the stream of life at the source, and then passing upward again through all the lower forms.