From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:31:02 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1648 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980928233102.007c2c10@pophost.micron.net> Paul wrote: >My guess would be that Tony was the one talking about occult >harm. Bummer! It's so much fun blaming Dallas for everything. Didn't I bet a twinkie on it? Do I send it to Dallas or Daniel? Life is so unfair and confusing. . .. Thanks, seriously, for the info, Paul. Geez, imagine going through life with the last name of "Dutta." Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 23:43:56 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1648 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980928234356.007bacb0@pophost.micron.net> Dallas wrote: >I thought this synopsis of the contents of this article would be >interesting to our group: > > HPB -- WHAT ARE THE THEOSOPHISTS ? [snip] >True psychology and philosophy can only be found maintained (from >antiquity to the present) in ancient Indian texts. >All religions are considered equal, none being superior. If ALL religions are "considered equal, none being superior," how can one state that "true psychology and philosophy can ONLY be found maintained (from antiquity to the present) in ancient Indian texts?" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 00:46:14 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Gurdjeff-Ouspensky schools and books Message-ID: <000001bdeb7d$3ccdc6c0$8c0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Sept 28th 1998 Dear Estrella: The only way to learn something about such matters is for you to look into them yourself and see if they make sense Look for the "PRINCIPLES" or the bases that any system offers. Why should you believe anyone, or take any opinion (mine included) to be "correct?" I can tell you for instance about Theosophy - There are three fundamental principles (see Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, pp 14-19.) 1. Deity is UNIVERSAL it animates and gives life and purpose to all beings, large or small SPIRIT/SOUL that animates them at the core is ONE WITH THIS UNIVERSAL DEITY. The whole Universe is its being, whether the universe is manifesting, as it is now, or whether it is "asleep" and resting between two "manifestations." When a fresh Manifestation begins we see the two contrasting poles of "Spirit," and "Matter" emerge along with MIND - Intelligence - Consciousness. The organizing and planning of the whole Kosmos begins again, using the intelligences that had gone to sleep and which are now also awakening. It is like our sleeping and waking every day. 2. The 2nd "principle" is therefore LAW (also called KARMA) and this works everywhere and all the time. Every being is involved in the cycles of time and the return of events, such as day and night, and the cycles of the seasons each year. No one can "escape by prayer or contrition from the results of errors and mistakes and evils done, as well as the good things that we do in life. 2. The 3rd principle is that every being is evolving. It is securing by experience more intelligence and knowledge. At one end of the scale you have the new-born beings and at the end you have the very Wise Ones who have learned everything that a Universe can teach them - and they then participate in the future in that great educational program by assisting all those who know less than they do. The whole of the philosophy of Theosophy revolves around these great fundamental ideas. They are offered for our consideration and thought. - is this a true and fair description of the Universe we are in and the situation that we live in ? Such ideas can be applied to any system that is offered. What is their objective? What are their principles ? Do they teach the human being to become wiser, more compassionate, honest, true, fair, sincere ? Or do they teach other things ? You have to make the decisions, but good decisions are always made with as much knowledge as you can secure. Trial and error are very dangerous methods. Dallas Estrella writes >Hi. Somewhere recently a person very wise that i know invited me to join >a Gurdijeff-Ouspensky school, and i wanted to know more information on >them. I know that they founded a school of taught, slightly based on >Theosophical principles and taughts. I want you to tell me if these guys >weren't just another wierd bunch of fanatics that rips off your >money/brain, as other fake pretended "mystical-occult" >swamis/teachers/illuminated guys/lunatics. >Also i would like a brief explanation of the principles taught by that >Gurdijeff-Ouspensky followers, wether is correct/fake. >I have heard a lot of them, also here, but i don't know with certain >which principles their doctrine is based off/ about off. >In the meanwhile, thanks. >Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 07:25:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1648 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980929072552.00780264@mail.eden.com> At 01:51 AM 9/29/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Dallas wrote: > >>I thought this synopsis of the contents of this article would be >>interesting to our group: >> >> HPB -- WHAT ARE THE THEOSOPHISTS ? >[snip] > >>True psychology and philosophy can only be found maintained (from >>antiquity to the present) in ancient Indian texts. > >>All religions are considered equal, none being superior. > >If ALL religions are "considered equal, none being superior," how can one >state that "true psychology and philosophy can ONLY be found maintained >(from antiquity to the present) in ancient Indian texts?" > >Kym There was a mention somewhere by HPB herself that some of the material predates India and came from Atlanteans. I think if we go back further, they predate them as well. It goes on and on. The texts are ok, no matter how *sacred* one considers them to be. Nothing is substitute for first hand experience and such experience cannot be fully put down in writing. Sometime ago I read somewhere about trying to explain the taste of Avacado to Asian Indians. Indian have never known it let alone tasted it. Any amount of explanation would be incomplete, at best. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 07:30:18 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Schools and Books Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980929073018.0113825c@mail.eden.com> At 03:53 AM 9/29/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Why should you believe anyone, or take any opinion (mine >included) to be "correct?" > >Dallas Very good post. If anyone exposed to theosophy learnt anything, it is this independent thinking and examination first hand. A great safety from being mislead is built into this attitude, even though it is difficult and many times you have to stand alone in the middle of everyone who think you are dead wrong. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:02:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Gurdjieff/Ouspensky Message-ID: <199809291302.JAA19251@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Dear Estrella, If you are seriously considering getting involved, you will of course read some introductory material. So there's little point in trying to encapsulate the doctrines in a paragraph. Suffice it to say that the core belief is that "man is a machine" and that it is possible to break out of our mechanical state through "self-observation," "self-remembering," "intentional suffering," and a set of practices involving movements. Also that knowledge that enables us to become free of mechanical life is preserved by "schools" and that Gurdjieff studied in these. Lots of parallels between Gurdjieff and HPB are explore in my Initiates of Theosophical Masters. As for what these people are like, it depends on the branch. But in any case they are, as best I can tell, dogmatic and narrow-minded, forming their own cult with its special language and superior attitude. David Kherdian wrote a memoir of his years in the Fourth Way movement called something like Beelzebub's Grandson. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:23:46 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Gurdjieff/Ouspensky Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980929132346.00e43d94@mail.eden.com> At 09:09 AM 9/29/1998 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >But >in any case they are, as best I can tell, dogmatic and >narrow-minded, forming their own cult with its special language >and superior attitude. >Cheers, >Paul Is that not how most movements end up? In addition, most try to make their followers conform to a pattern using reasons in the world or out of the world or in a future life about which no one has a first hand knowledge. Fear is frequently used to make people conform - arguments ranging from occult consequences to karmic consequences are usually used. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 14:57:32 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1645 Message-ID: <53484530.36112d9c@aol.com> In a message dated 9/25/98 10:28:57 PM, you wrote: <> But that depends on what your definition of "is" is... -Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:10:14 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1643 Message-ID: In a message dated 9/23/98 10:25:57 PM, mkr wrote: <> I like this in theory, but I've tested it several times in downtown D.C. by offering to buy or give the person food instead of money. Sometimes the food offering is accepted, but other times, it is turned down (several times by people who asked for money, claiming to be hungry), in which case I conclude the person really wants cash rather than food, for whatever purpose I don't know - but I don't necessarily want to finance someone else's drug or alcohol habit, for example. I think that what it means to be poor or homeless can have more complicated causes in our society than simple, extreme hunger such as you might find in a place like Calcutta. Would be interested to know what others think about giving cash versus other forms of charity. Also - must we give to everyone who catches our attention? or can we ethically focus only on the charities we want our money to go to, ignoring the rest? Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:43:02 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1643 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980929154302.006971c4@mail.eden.com> What you say is true. However, like in so many other situations, each one of us have to decide for ourselves how we want to act or help whether with money or food or in other ways. The fact we are atleast aware of the needy is a good beginning, in my opinion. mkr At 03:16 PM 9/29/98 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 9/23/98 10:25:57 PM, mkr wrote: > ><alleviate a bit of their hunger.>> > >I like this in theory, but I've tested it several times in downtown D.C. by >offering to buy or give the person food instead of money. Sometimes the food >offering is accepted, but other times, it is turned down (several times by >people who asked for money, claiming to be hungry), in which case I conclude >the person really wants cash rather than food, for whatever purpose I don't >know - but I don't necessarily want to finance someone else's drug or alcohol >habit, for example. I think that what it means to be poor or homeless can >have more complicated causes in our society than simple, extreme hunger such >as you might find in a place like Calcutta. > >Would be interested to know what others think about giving cash versus other >forms of charity. Also - must we give to everyone who catches our attention? >or can we ethically focus only on the charities we want our money to go to, >ignoring the rest? >Christine > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:30:59 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1643 Message-ID: Cybercmh@aol.com writes >Would be interested to know what others think about giving cash versus other >forms of charity. Also - must we give to everyone who catches our attention? >or can we ethically focus only on the charities we want our money to go to, >ignoring the rest? If someone asks for cash rather than food, then their need is for cash, no? Maybe they want to buy socks. Are you going to carry spare socks around in case? If they are asking *on the street* then however we look at it, they must be in a bad way. My take on this is that if it feels right, I give if I can. I don't ask why they need it, as if they didn't need it, they wouldn't be asking. Seems familiar from somewhere ...... Alan :0\ --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:18:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Thesophical "Animal Farm" Message-ID: <3FuYZAAZrWE2EwHC@nellie2.demon.co.uk> kymsmith@micron.net writes >Dallas wrote: > >>I thought this synopsis of the contents of this article would be >>interesting to our group: >> >> HPB -- WHAT ARE THE THEOSOPHISTS ? >[snip] > >>True psychology and philosophy can only be found maintained (from >>antiquity to the present) in ancient Indian texts. > >>All religions are considered equal, none being superior. > >If ALL religions are "considered equal, none being superior," how can one >state that "true psychology and philosophy can ONLY be found maintained >(from antiquity to the present) in ancient Indian texts?" > >Kym > Because [organised] religions, being based upon "faith," allow us to believe two contradictory statements at the same time. For example, in Christianity, God [viewed as a "person"] is singular and plural at the same time. Being a male-dominated religion, this is perfectly logical. (Sorry, chaps). Alan :0| --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 00:23:33 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Gurdjeff-Ouspensky schools and books Message-ID: W. Dallas TenBroeck writes >Sept 28th 1998 > >Dear Estrella: > >The only way to learn something about such matters is for you to >look into them yourself and see if they make sense > >Look for the "PRINCIPLES" or the bases that any system offers. > >Why should you believe anyone, or take any opinion (mine >included) to be "correct?" > >I can tell you for instance about Theosophy - Dearest Dal, Estrella was not asking about theosophy - see header of this post. When I was being trained to teach occult matters, I was told a few simple rules: answer only the question that has been asked; do not volunteer more than has been asked for, and do not offer answers which, as we might say on the list, are "off topic." Your reply is "off topic," and comes across as an attempt to proselytize. Best, Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:28:05 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Keeps moving Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980930182805.00ec510c@mail.eden.com> US Congress is pushing the non profit organizations to post their tax exempt applications and their tax returns post on Internet to speed up public access. Of course, most non profits are secretive and does not want to divulge even information which is in public domain. Now comes Microsoft in voting area. All stockholders can cast their ballots in the upcoming shareholders meeting via Internet. It is only a question of time more voting takes place via Internet thus saving time and money for everyone. We had Starr report on Internet for the whole world to see. What next? Only the Gods know. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 01:10:13 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: What are the Theosophists ? by HPB "theosophist, Oct. 1879" Message-ID: <000101bdeab7$6c758dc0$b70e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Sept 28th 1998 Dallas offers: I thought this synopsis of the contents of this article would be interesting to our group: HPB -- WHAT ARE THE THEOSOPHISTS ? In the first issue of the THEOSOPHIST (October 1879), HPB placed this article immediately after her lead article: "WHAT IS THEOSOPHY ? In this article she covers the following: True psychology and philosophy can only be found maintained (from antiquity to the present) in ancient Indian texts. The key to "Spiritualism," "Mediumship," and "psychic phenomena" is there. The object of Theosophy is to present this, to revive Neo-Platonism, and not to advocate any particular religion, creed or dogma. The Theosophist is non-sectarian and seeks the truth underlying all religions. He is a "God-seeking" scientist, and advocates free and fearless investigation into all aspects of Nature. He is an "original thinker, a seeker after eternal truth with 'an inspiration of his own.'" This has been defined as a search for the "Presence," and for the "Invisible Cause" of all things and events. All religions are considered equal, none being superior. However, each individual is entitled to his own views, and these are to be respected by all theosophists. The Theosophist seeks for ideal Laws which alone the intuition can grasp. He is indebted to honest science and honest religion for the truths they seek or preserve. Nature contains ALL -- and is open to investigation by anyone who meets her criteria. Theosophists look on organizations, nations, and societies as examples of continued attempts to frame an ideal "Republic of Conscience." There is freedom to seek, to inquire and to share the results of one's findings. No personal opinions, conclusions or politics of management may be forced on others. The "inner man" [the Mind-Soul] is forever free and persists for many lives. True students of Nature and of antique records are often recluses, and live their lives in silence and employ the tool of meditation in their search. Truth alone is eternal. It is central to all investigation and is neither Eastern nor Western, but universal. Tolerance is the key-note of the Theosophist. The Theosophist is a philosopher, and employs his knowledge to assist others where it is needed. He warms the enthusiasm of the coming generation of fresh young minds just ripening into maturity, so that they may share the enthusiasm and the fruits of discovery as they also become investigators in their turn. His attitude is marked by freedom of thought; the elimination of superstition; the search for convincing reason; assistance to all; the patience to listen to all that is said; the welcoming of all into the great fellowship of seeking minds; and above all to honor Truth wherever found. I thought this was interesting and wanted to share it with you. Dallas ============================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:44:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Facsimilies Message-ID: <199809281344.JAA03607@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Dear Kym, My guess would be that Tony was the one talking about occult harm. You see, there was a movement centered on a man named Rex Dutta in England that emphasized all kinds of secret messages in HPB's works encoded according to page numbers, where things were on the page, etc., and if Tony is who I think he is (Maddock) he contributed a paper along these lines to a conference in the 1980s. If this school of thought were correct, changing the outer form of the message-- even if all the diacritical marks and odd spellings were left intact-- would still ruin things and maybe invert meanings. What I've been wondering is why this debate is being crossposted to theos-l; it doesn't seem to generate any interest on this list, and I left theos-talk and came here hoping to get away from such fundie preoccupations. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:34:04 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Re: Voice of the Silence Message-ID: <360FAC6C.7A5E@azstarnet.com> Martin wrote: > Ultimately the one who reads, assimilates and lives accordingly is the > great winner of the wisdom transmitted by HPB to all of us. > The rest of us will read it and added to our vast knowledge and it will > remail as information to be quoted which is good too. > > And what about me and thousands of others who study the Voice, SD, Isis > etc in other languages, where every word has been interpreted, > manipulated and translated. > > My opinion in these matters is (not that matters to anyone) that we > should have available the original writings of HPB for reference, and > also publish the improved version in areas of spellings, typos, modern > renditions of names like Krishna, Amon, etc. In this way, we may > benefit from the time, research and knowledge from past (present and > future) editors like Besant, Mead, Boris dZ.. > > We should not be afraid of correcting, editing the SD, etc. That's is > why I suggest we gather our marbles of research and create the online > annotated version of the SD, where every page will contain our notes in > footnotes, along with concordances and more bibliographic references. Daniel Caldwell replies: Martin, I think you've made many important points above. *Especially about translations.* What is most important is to understand and assimilate these great ideas of Theosophy behind the words. Today we have so much Blavatsky and Blavatsky related material in print from 5 or 6 publishers. Are we taking good advantage of all this material in our studies and in trying to help others who are also interested? Serious students should seek out good material from whatever publisher. For example, are ULT associates and other Blavatsky students aware of the Blavatsky series put out by Point Loma Publicatons, Inc., San Diego? I'm referring to the series compiled and edited by H. J. Spirenburg. THE NEW TESTAMENT COMMENTARIES OF H.P. BLAVATSKY THE VEDA COMMENTARIES OF H.P. BLAVATSKY H. P BLAVATSKY ON THE GNOSTICS THE BUDDHISM OF H.P. BLAVATSKY THE VEDANTA COMMENTARIES OF H.P. BLAVATSKY and there's more volumes in this series Wonderful volumes very very helpful to Blavatsy and Theosophical students. Many more examples could be given. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:11:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Fashionable Nonsense-- a book for Bart Message-ID: <199809281811.OAA12715@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Months ago, I recall some posts from Bart L. about the foolishness of postmodernist claims about science, so a current article in The New Republic struck me as worth posting about here. The article, by Thomas Nagel, is called "The Sleep of Reason" and describes a new book, *Fashionable Nonsense: Postmodern Philosophers' Abuse of Science* by Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont. Sokal is the NYU physicist who pulled off a 1996 hoax by submitting, and getting accepted, an article for a journal called Social Text that was scientifically nonsensical but fashionably postmodernist. I'll just quote some central paragraphs about the philosophers of Science Thomas Kuhn and Paul Feyerabend: Both of them are repeatedly cited in support of the claim that everything, including the physical world, is a social construct existing only from the perspective of this or that cognitive practice, that there is no truth but only conformity or nonconformity to the discourse of this or that community, and that the adoption of scientific theories is to be explained sociologically rather than by the probative weight of reasoning from the experimental evidence...The radical relativism found in Kuhn and Feyerabend fell on fertile ground. The postmodernist doctrine that there is nothing outside the text, no world to which it is tied down, seems plausible to consumers of postmodernist writings, where language is simply allowed to take off on its own. Those who have no objective standards themselves find it easy to deny them to others...the denial of objective truth on the ground that all systems of belief are determined by social forces is self-refuting if we take it seriously, since it appeals to a sociological or historical claim that would not establish the conclusion unless it were objectively correct. Moreover, it promotes one discipline, such as sociology or history, over the others whose objectivity it purports to debunk, such as physics and mathematics. Given that many propositions on the latter fields are much better established than the theories of social determination by which their objectivity is being challenged, this is like using a ouija board to decide whether your car needs new brake linings.(p. 36, TNR 10/12/98) This debate is relevant to Theosophical issues because among the fertile grounds for postmodernism has been the defense of scientifically preposterous claims in Theosophical literature. If scientists are just a bunch of "discoursers" whose descriptions of cosmology and geology and biology are purely subjective, then Theosophists don't have to pay a bit of attention to the conflicts between their own doctrines and science. Or they can condescendingly assert that the Masters alone have true objective knowledge, and scientists who dare dispute HPB's pronouncements are wandering in the dark. PJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:35:38 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: The same Message-ID: <360FF31A.97DD8C52@usa.net> --------------9B6D2C6FDEB397F1D9F19567 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Go ahead and argue over pickles, onions, buns, and cheese - but, like, > where is the beef? > > Kym > I think this discusion is something between the cheese and the sesame seeds of the bun.Maybe some "beef" there.... Estrella --------------9B6D2C6FDEB397F1D9F19567 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
Go ahead and argue over pickles, onions, buns, and cheese - but, like,
where is the beef?

Kym


I think this discusion is something between the cheese and the sesame seeds of the bun.Maybe some "beef" there....

Estrella
  --------------9B6D2C6FDEB397F1D9F19567-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:52:26 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: Do you believe in magic? ;) Message-ID: <360FF709.F95F7297@usa.net> Hi friends, and thanks!! for your help on the romantic subject. my friend is very much calm now....she told me that something rather special happen to her recently. she found somebody who did give the correct answers to this problem, that involves matters from long time ago.She was so amazed by the fact, (It was just after she read the letters you kindly wrote) that seriously suspects that some psychic help (Maybe you guys?) was sent her to help. I believe that it is time to take a quiet moment within us, and notice that the magic is still there. is just that we have the minds to full of other matters, and we forget that the powerful wizards of yore are still there. Helping us to see what it is ment to be, the real things. Estrella P.S. Thanks speccialy to Kym, Dallas and Alan for your dear answers. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:00:41 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: On Gurdijeff-Ouspensky Message-ID: <360FF8F8.B1F7526B@usa.net> Hi. Somewhere recently a person very wise that i know invited me to join a Gurdijeff-Ouspensky school, and i wanted to know more information on them. I know that they founded a school of taught, slightly based on Theosophical principles and taughts. I want you to tell me if these guys weren't just another wierd bunch of fanatics that rips off your money/brain, as other fake pretended "mystical-occult" swamis/teachers/illuminated guys/lunatics. Also i would like a brief explanation of the principles taught by that Gurdijeff-Ouspensky followers, wether is correct/fake. I have heard a lot of them, also here, but i don't know with certain which principles their doctrine is based off/ about off. In the meanwhile, thanks. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:24:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome Message-ID: Theosophy International welcomes Emma-Louise Armstrong! Personal welcomes to earmstrong@dra.hmg.gb Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:21:51 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: On Gurdijeff-Ouspensky Message-ID: Estrella writes >Hi. Somewhere recently a person very wise that i know invited me to join >a Gurdijeff-Ouspensky school, and i wanted to know more information on >them. I know that they founded a school of taught, slightly based on >Theosophical principles and taughts. I want you to tell me if these guys >weren't just another wierd bunch of fanatics that rips off your >money/brain, as other fake pretended "mystical-occult" >swamis/teachers/illuminated guys/lunatics. >Also i would like a brief explanation of the principles taught by that >Gurdijeff-Ouspensky followers, wether is correct/fake. >I have heard a lot of them, also here, but i don't know with certain >which principles their doctrine is based off/ about off. >In the meanwhile, thanks. >Estrella > Dear Estrella, I once belonged to an Ouspenksy-based school. I learned much, but would warn against getting too deeply involved with their system, which, IMHO, is seriously flawed. For a good outline, read Ouspenky's book, "In Search of the Miraculous." Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 22:37:57 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1646 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980926223757.007c19f0@pophost.micron.net> Daniel wrote: >Dorothy, it was not I who was insisting that one *must* use only >facsimile editions of HPB's works. One subscriber on Theos-Talk even >seemed to be hinting/suggesting that to use an "edited" version of THE >SECRET DOCTRINE might lead to "occult" harm. > >Again, it was not I who was pooh-poohing, Oh, Daniel, get some ovaries and pooh-pooh on. If Dallas - the subscriber I bet my twinkie you were referring to - thinks that things that are not "verbatim" can cause "occult" harm, he just better lock himself in his house and never pick up another book or listen to another person attempt to inform him of something. Most everything external comes to us second-hand - and did you know that the human ear only hears about 60% of what is said and the brain of the hearer 'translates' the rest? The only hope is to gather as much information from different sources as is possible for the person in his/her circumstances and then run it through his/her own "inner book." Every story, every myth, every legend, every "holy" writing, every witness on the jury box, will have their own take on the exact same thing - and swear it's the truth. People who claim that something is "original" or "true" have more of a responsibilty to prove such a statement than those who think something is false. If the evidence passes human standards, then it can rationally be accepted as true (example: the Holocaust). Dallas has not proven his case nor, for that matter, has HPB proven her case that there are such beings as "Masters." Your belief in the "Masters," Daniel, to me, is nothing more than a matter of FAITH. That's fine for you to believe that, but you cannot expect others to do the same. My point is, the very FOUNDATION of the dispute has itself never even been proven "true." Go ahead and argue over pickles, onions, buns, and cheese - but, like, where is the beef? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:43:49 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1645 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980925224349.007ba100@pophost.micron.net> John forwarded some postings: >> >It's also untrue. Producers of Sixty Minutes said there never was any >such >> >interview with Ken Starr. Bonnie Crouse I was aware that Ken Starr never appeared on 60 Minutes; however, he did grant an interview to Brill's Content magazine in which he admitted to allowing one of his underlings to talk to the press regarding the case. A clear violation of the law. In Starr's rebuttal to Brill's Content, Starr never denied that such leaks occurred. According to Rep. Barney Frank, Starr changed Monica Lewinsky's testimony: She said "No one ever encouraged me to lie." Starr changed it to: "No one ever IMPLICITLY encouraged me to lie." Starr also underlined the word "implicitly." Another clear violation of the law. Starr is also a former student of Regent University. Regent University is run by the religious right's Commander-in-Chief, Pat Robertson. Although I am not an advocate of "conspiracy theories," in this case, I doubt Hillary Clinton is too far off-base in stating that her husband, indeed, is a victim of right-wingers who have access to almost unlimited funds (aka, Scaife, Rutherford Foundation, etc). Their desire for power and their intense loathing of Clinton served as potent fuel which now threatens to undermine democracy and the right to privacy. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:52:19 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Re: Voice of the Silence Message-ID: <360D0DB3.493F@azstarnet.com> Dear Dorothy, Thanks for your remarks and question. I don't know if you've been following this discussion from the very beginning or not. This discussion started a few weeks ago on Theos-Talk. But let me agree with you that what is most important is "living the life", attempting to incorporate the "virtues", etc. into one's personal life. This is the most important issue. But on the separate issue of "facsimiles", I prefer a facsimile but I can ALSO apppreciate other editions. For example, Boris de Zirkoff's Collected Writings edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE is not a facsimile or verbatim reproduction of the original, yet this CW edition is *a valuable addition* to Theosophical literature as Eldon Tucker's previous comments (on using BdZ's edition) illustrated. I use BOTH the facsimile as well as BdZ's edition of the SD in my own studies. Dorothy, it was not I who was insisting that one *must* use only facsimile editions of HPB's works. One subscriber on Theos-Talk even seemed to be hinting/suggesting that to use an "edited" version of THE SECRET DOCTRINE might lead to "occult" harm. Again, it was not I who was pooh-poohing, for example, the "Collected Writings" series of HPB's works. Yes, I prefer to use facsimile/verbatim editions but I also realize the *great value* of Boris de Zirkoff's "Collected Writings" series. But it has been my understanding that The Theosophy Company, LA, has prided (in the positive sense of the word) itself in providing facsimile reproductions of Madame Blavatsky's works. Notice what is said in the Theosophy Company's own "Publishers' Preface" to the 1947 printing of the SD: "With the present printing of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, The Theosophy Company continues ITS FUNCTION of providing students and inquirers with UNALTERED editions of the original literature of the Theosophical Movement." Here on Theos-talk, I have been pointing out that TC's editions of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and A MODERN PANARION are *altered* and do not conform to HPB's originals. Draw whatever conclusions you may from these observations. Glad you're on board Theos-Talk, Daniel Caldwell dorothy lord wrote: > > Daniel Caldwell > If one reads - absorbs - and tries to live by the seven virtues as > expressed by H.P.B. > does it really matter whether it is a facsimile > or not??? > Dorothy Lord From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:18:05 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1644 Message-ID: <000801bde886$ef7c3bc0$4fcb37c0@gschueler.netgsi.com> >I am currently using Microsucks Outlook Express. If an email is "stuck" on >my Microsucks NT Email server because it's too large or some other reason it >will fail to remove the already received items from the server. So if there >are 50 emails on the server and the 31st is "bad" then I will receive the >first 30 again and again. I have experienced the same problems. My solution was to use an old version of Netscape Navigator to get the "stuck" mail. Outlook Express has hung up my computer many times. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:06:41 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: Fw: Staying Informed Message-ID: <01J27WTU8RB49AMMX5@InfoAve.Net> >>Subject: Staying Informed > >>Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:38:44 -0400 > >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4. > >> > >> > >>"Public media should not contain explicit or implied > >> descriptions of sex acts. Our society should be purged of the > >> perverts who provide the media with pornographic material > >> while pretending it has some redeeming social value under the > >> public's 'right to know.'" > >> > >> -- Kenneth Starr, 1987, > >> "Sixty Minutes" > >> interview with Diane Sawyer. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:17:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1644 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980925091739.00fd1b74@mail.eden.com> At 09:31 AM 9/25/1998 -0400, Jerry Schueler wrote: >>I am currently using Microsucks Outlook Express. If an email is "stuck" on >>my Microsucks NT Email server because it's too large or some other reason >it >>will fail to remove the already received items from the server. So if there >>are 50 emails on the server and the 31st is "bad" then I will receive the >>first 30 again and again. > >I have experienced the same problems. My solution was to use an old >version of Netscape Navigator to get the "stuck" mail. Outlook Express >has hung up my computer many times. > >Jerry S. > I am glad to hear about the experience. For many even to find time to check their mail is difficult. If you add the frustration from the software, many may give up. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:31:26 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: Fw: A Gem Message-ID: <01J27XVIV9489AMM3O@InfoAve.Net> seems this quote may need to be checked out further... I sure hope it is accurate. It's too good. john e. mead ---------- > From: James V Blowers > To: Thomas Jefferson District Event and Discussion > Subject: Re: A Gem > Date: Thursday, September 24, 1998 6:24 > > It's tralse. That is an intermediate state between true and false. Many if > not most statements made through the media are in this limbo state of > tralse; I can't trust them to be either true or false unless I see it for > myself. > > Jim Blowers > > At 10:59 9/24/98 EDT, you wrote: > >In a message dated 98-09-23 11:01:58 EDT, you write: > > > ><< > > Isn't that ironic? > > >> > >It's also untrue. Producers of Sixty Minutes said there never was any such > >interview with Ken Starr. Bonnie Crouse From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:08:33 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Re: MODERN PANARION reprinted by the Theosophy Company, Los Angeles References: <005301bde822$2965a020$03e78ccc@nwc.net> Dallas, thank you for your comments on A MODERN PANARION. But I am somewhat puzzled by your comments when you write: > Reprint in facsimile the book as originally published in 1895. . . >.This method was chosen. No question ,but an explanation or a warning >to readers, could have been included in a "publisher's preface." And >if ever this is reprinted I would urge the T. Co. to make such an >observation. But why would you (or the Theosophy Company) want to ever reprint this volume again? Even if you included a "publisher's preface", the book has hundreds of "corrections" plus deletions. And all of this was probably done by Mr. Mead. IMO, to reprint this 1895 volume goes against what you have previously stated as YOUR OWN standards in regards to HPB's writings. And I believe it would go against the standards of the Theosophy Company. AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?? For interested Blavatsky students, the articles from HPB's pen reprinted in A MODERN PANARION can also be found in Boris de Zirkoff's COLLECTED WRITINGS. And BdZ's transcription is much better than what is found in A MODERN PANARION. Just one example to illustrate my last statement. In MP, on pp. 38-46, you find an article entitled "Occultism or Magic." In THE COLLECTED WRITINGS, Vol. I, pp. 101-119, you find this same article but with the original title: "A Few Questions to 'HIRAF". The MP version is incomplete. The last 12 long paragraphs of the article is missing in MP. See COLLECTED WRITINGS, Vol. I for comparison. I have verified this by looking at my microfilm copy of the original article published in the Boston SPIRITUAL SCIENTIST. Pages 1-190 in MP reprint HPB's articles in America, 1874-1878. I would recommend Vol. I of THE COLLECTED WRITINGS which includes all these articles plus more not included in MP. Plus Boris has added HPB's notes appended to these articles in her scrapbooks. Plus there are many other benefits to this Volume I. Maybe the Theosophy Company should consider reprinting the 4 volumes of the COMPLETE WORKS of HPB published in the 1930s. Or better yet. . . . [but I will save this last idea for another post.] Daniel H. Caldwell W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > > Sept 14th 1998 > > Dear Daniel: > > Thanks for sending as an attachment your comments on A MODERN PANARION, > which I read for the first time. > > Dilemma: > > There are some valuable articles in the book which are not included in the 3 > Vol. series of HPB Articles that T. Co. published. > > Question: > > Go back to the original articles, which on proof reading, prove to be > different in content from the "edited" reprints included in the 1895 edition > (after HPB's death); and no doubt, possibly edited by one or several > persons -- thus producing the differences you note. And that would make > such a production untrue to the book, though true to the originals if no > "printer's devil" intervenes in doing a "verbatim.". > > OR > > Reprint in facsimile the book as originally published in 1895 ? This method > was chosen. > > No question ,but an explanation or a warning to readers, could have been > included in a "publisher's preface." And if ever this is reprinted I would > urge the T. Co. to make such an observation. > > Thanks again for your efforts and help in getting this settled. > > Best wishes as always, > > Dallas > > ================================ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Graye/Caldwell > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Cc: blafoun@pegasus.azstarnet.com > Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 2:05 > Subject: Theos-World MODERN PANARION reprinted by the Theosophy Company > > >Two Theos-Talk subsribers have just emailed me wondering what I had > >written about A MODERN PANARION. I thought I had posted this on > >Theos-Talk several days ago. I post it again below for those interested > >who may not have seen the original post. My computer is acting up so > >forgive me if I have sent 2 copies of this instead of one. > > > >Daniel Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:43:26 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Co. edition compared with the 1889 ORIGINAL Message-ID: <360BE44E.841@azstarnet.com> Dallas, In reviewing my emails, I see that you never directly responded to the questions I was asking you about the VOICE. My questions were prompted by what you had previously written. I hope that you will directly answer these questions for the benefit of all readers on Theos-World. FIRST QUESTION: > In the 1889 edition of THE VOICE, on pp. 45, 51, and 87, one finds the > following spelling of the word under consideration: > > P. 45 UPADYA > > P. 51 Upadya's > > P. 87 Upadya [Word is in italics.] > > In your text above, Dallas, you say that the 1892 edition spells this > word as Upadhyaya. Therefore, some "editor" has changed the spelling > from the 1889 edition to the 1892 version. > > Now I ask you, what is the spelling of this word in The Theosophy > Company's edition? SECOND QUESTION: > In the original edition of THE VOICE, in HPB's preface, we find the > following in the 2 paragraphs quoted in my previous email: > > ". . . (Bhagavat-gita II. 70). . . ." > > ". . . (Bhagavatgita II. 27). . . ." > > [Both words are in italics.] > > Dallas, what is the spelling of this Hindu text in the Theosophy > Company's edition? And are the numbers [ II. 70 & II. 27 ] also given > in the Theosophy Company's edition? THIRD QUESTION: > Dallas wrote: > > >Why should I not recommend the T. Co. edition? Did you find any >changes in meaning? > > Daniel replies: > > But my question, Dallas, is why WOULD you want to recommend the > Theosophy Company's edition? Just 5 days ago, you wrote: > > >I prefer a facsimile edition - no question of authenticity. Comments >and changes can be put in an ADDENDUM for students to consult. > > >Verbatim editions are acceptable, if truly and accurately VERBATIM - no >changes or emendations or interpolations. Any such can be handled >through an ADDENDUM. > > In light of your own words, the Theosophy Company edition is certainly > NOT a facsimile of the orginal VOICE. And this edition is NOT a "truly and accurately VERBATIM" edition since there are "changes or > emendations." Furthermore, the Theosophy Company's edition contains > changes and emendations but the reader is not told this. FOURTH QUESTION: > Again, Dallas, you ask me: > > >Did you find any changes in meaning? > > Dallas, there are some 665 changes. I would have to look at each change > and compare it to the original 1889 edition. > > But the important question is: "Why did the 'editor' of the Theosophy > Company edition decide to make changes, then went ahead and made the > changes, and did NOT alert readers to those changes (however minor or > insignificant that editor or you may deem the changes)?" > > And if this "editor" can make 665 "silent" changes, why be so critical > of editing by G.R.S Mead or Boris de Zirkoff of THE SECRET DOCTRINE? AND MY FIFTH QUESTION (WHICH IS A NEW ONE) IS AS FOLLOWS: Dallas, in light of all these corrections in the Theosophy Company's edition of the VOICE, will you in the future continue to use/recommend the TC edition? And if you answer yes, why would you prefer this TC edition instead of, for example, the Theosophical University Press's current edition which has the same pagination as the original and is truly verbatim with the 1889 edition of the VOICE? Maybe I have belabored the point, but these questions are worth asking especially in light of what you have written many times previously on the importance of facsimiles, etc. of HPB's writings. Thanking you in advance for your answers. Daniel H. Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:10:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet with Single Phone Line Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980925211038.00745ef8@mail.eden.com> Many of us who have a single telephone line and use considerable amount of time on Internet have to make a choice between missing incoming calls and using Internet. A new hardware product is going to hit the market to solve this problem. It is called Hot Calls and is to be released by Command Communications who pioneered the fax switch about 10 years ago and I have used the fax switch in my business with great satisfaction over 10 years. If the telephone line has call waiting, the product intercepts incoming call if you are connected to Internet it alerts you so that if you want you can answer the call for a short period of time without losing the Internet connection. The product will be available on Oct 7 and will cost around $80. I do not have any financial or other interest in the company or the product and am sharing the info as I think it would be useful to many like me. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:54:58 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Microsucks Outlook Express Problems Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980924185458.01647c64@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting msg from listening-l, the Krishnaji maillist. It may be useful to some of the subscribers. I am also posting a reply I posted to this msg. mkr ======================== I have received up to a dozen copies of each message for a day sometimes, for me the cause was this. I am currently using Microsucks Outlook Express. If an email is "stuck" on my Microsucks NT Email server because it's too large or some other reason it will fail to remove the already received items from the server. So if there are 50 emails on the server and the 31st is "bad" then I will receive the first 30 again and again. The solution has been to use Pegasus to download the list of mail and then forwarding the smaller ones back to myself. With the new version of Pegasus I should probably switch to it. BTW, Microsucks Outlook Express also tends to crash on my system. Alex ----- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 18:56:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Microsucks Outlook Express Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980924185638.0164f4cc@mail.eden.com> Here is a msg I posted to listening-l, which might interest to some here as well. mkr ============================ At 02:04 PM 9/24/1998 -0400, Alex Miller wrote: >With the new version of Pegasus I should probably switch to it. BTW, >Microsucks Outlook Express also tends to crash on my system. > >Alex It is good to know that Microsucks Outlook Express' problems which can cause unnecessary stress and waste of time. As I use Netscape I had trouble in getting the MOE to install and work and so I stayed with Eudora which has performed flawlessly for years. In addition, I can go into the Eudora mail files using a text editor to search and retrieve any part of it with ease. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:31:25 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: love pop quiz Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980923003125.007ba3b0@pophost.micron.net> Estrella wrote: >That this girl falls in love of this guy, but the >guy, as i said before, behaves more like, for saying, a young >master-wizard. What do you mean when saying he acts like a "young master-wizard?" >The boy rejects the girl. What's happening here?? People "reject" people for zillions of reasons. Could be karmic, could be personality clashes, could be the gentleman is not interested in a serious relationship, could be. . .could be. . .could be. . .? >Is it NOT possible that a girl can follow "the narrow path" and have >romance at the same time?? Absolutely, she can have and do both. Romance teaches us many things - compassion, sharing, caring, moves us away from self-focus. Following the "narrow path" need not include a barren and sterile love life. >she also has to surrender to the karmic >destiny and not conquer pure love in her lifetime?? How does she know that her karmic destiny requires her to live a life devoid of intimate relationships? Just because one potential relationship does not appear to be working out certainly does NOT mean that love is still not part of her "karmic" destiny. >Under what wisdom >rules this young man is forgetting of love in his lifetime and >accomplish his "duty" whatever that is, instead of love?? what strange >thing is happening here?? It may be under NO "wisdom" at all - or it could be for the better for both of them to not become involved with each other - or it may eventually work out. Again, many reasons could account for his decision. >(I'll think i'll tell my friend to get another guy....but i'm sure >she'll refuse....he's one of that once-in-a lifetime oportunities) Actually, in my opinion, telling her to "get another guy" may come across as a dismissal of her emotions in this situation. Perhaps gently suggesting that she search and listen to her "inner voice" for guidance may be more advantageous, especially while her pain is still quite raw. I seriously doubt, however, that this gentleman is a "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity." We sometimes think people are - especially when our emotions are involved - but that rarely proves to be true. I am sure there are other gentlemen out there who will openly share with her love and companionship. >What Theosophy has to tell in this rather strange strange case?? Unsure about Theosophy, but you got Kym's take on the happenings! Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:37:26 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1642 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980923003726.007bbdf0@pophost.micron.net> Doss wrote: >As reported by AP, in a recent survey of non profit organizations, it was >found that the median salary of the executives is $209,914. I am not one of those who think people should live on the financial edge, worrying and scraping to get by. However, I do not think that a triple-digit salary is in order for those who are involved in non-profit (or even profit!) organizations - especially while there are so many who still go to bed (mattress?) with an empty stomach. It flies in the face of what non-profit organizations are supposed to represent. I imagine it must be very difficult for a person who is struggling to survive to appeal to an organization for help, only to be told there is not enough money to help them, and then seeing the management drive off in a car that cost as much as a house. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:07:29 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1642 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980923080729.00e3f3b0@mail.eden.com> It should be no problem in paying a non starving wages to everybody. On the other hand living in luxury when the same money of the organization can be spent on the people who are the beneficiary population. Couple of years ago, in the office building where I work, we had a one person office of a *non-profit* foundation which collected the bones and tissues from corpses for transplant. While the work they were doing was helping many recipients, the person in charge of the office, a young lady in her late 30s was driving a late model luxury car, which was the most expensive of all the cars in the parking lot. One wonders about the non profits. As an aside, the non-profits (including spiritual/theosophical) are very very secretive about compensation of the top paid people, god only knows why? May be when public/members find out the details, they may stop sending contribution from their hard earned funds. mkr At 02:40 AM 9/23/1998 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>As reported by AP, in a recent survey of non profit organizations, it was >>found that the median salary of the executives is $209,914. > >I am not one of those who think people should live on the financial edge, >worrying and scraping to get by. However, I do not think that a >triple-digit salary is in order for those who are involved in non-profit >(or even profit!) organizations - especially while there are so many who >still go to bed (mattress?) with an empty stomach. It flies in the face of >what non-profit organizations are supposed to represent. > >I imagine it must be very difficult for a person who is struggling to >survive to appeal to an organization for help, only to be told there is not >enough money to help them, and then seeing the management drive off in a >car that cost as much as a house. > >Kym > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:45:47 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1642 Message-ID: <533e1bae.3609099b@aol.com> In a message dated 9/22/98 10:09:57 PM, you wrote: <> Y'know, I don't begrudge the high salary if that's how you must attract and retain top talent. Sometimes, though, I don't feel like sending in my money to someone who is making a lot more than I am. Transferring my wealth to the wealthier, you know what I mean? I might personally rather give my money to someone who is worse off than I am, instead of sending my pennies to some guy driving around in a Mercedes, which makes me feel like a chump. This calls to mind an incident in a church I once belonged to. It was near Christmas and it was announced that everyone should be able to afford to contribute at least $10. I never appreciate someone telling me what I can or cannot afford, in the first place. Moreover, I noticed that the priest's car was a lot nicer than mine, which was so old it was starting to fall apart, and I didn't have enough money to get another one - and I thought to myself, when my car is nicer than his, then I'll send the money....Meanwhile, I need to take care of my own business first. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:09:34 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1642 Message-ID: <004401bde702$3df41880$03e78ccc@nwc.net> Sept 23rd 1998 Dear Estelle: Sudden feelings about a person may be the result of karmic links made in an earlier life. All our lives here and now (when we are awake and able to make positive or negative choices) are affected by our own past and the past of others. If the feeling is a valuable one, then with our minds we should be able to examine it closely and find out what value it has, in terms of the immediate present and the possible future. Any step of choice we make will result in a learning experience. since, as a race, we are developing the use of the mind and the WILL we inevitably are being asked by the great evolutionary sweep to learn how to use our minds wisely. The mind is not in opposition to the feelings, it is actually the superior power and would be used to judge whether our feelings are reasonable or not. This is all theory, and if you are interested then turn to Mme. Blavatsky's LA CLAVE DE LA THEOSOFIA (The Key to Theosophy) -- and look up under Karma and feelings and see if you do not find more there to help you. Best wishes, >Subject: love pop quiz >Message-ID: <3607FE14.26822130@usa.net> > >Hi >Consider this problem, folks: >In a hipotetical situation a) this friend of mine, who loves all of the >occult and that stuff, meets this caracter b) rather strange caracter, a >young man, who, in Alan's possible words, his description more accurate >could be that of the hermit card of Tarot than the "normal" "average" >young man who wants to dance and have fun. >consider the part c) That this girl falls in love of this guy, but the >guy, as i said before, behaves more like, for saying, a young >master-wizard.The boy rejects the girl. What's happening here?? >Is it NOT possible that a girl can follow "the narrow path" and have >romance at the same time?? she also has to surrender to the karmic >destiny and not conquer pure love in her lifetime?? Under what wisdom >rules this young man is forgetting of love in his lifetime and >accomplish his "duty" whatever that is, instead of love?? what strange >thing is happening here?? >(I'll think i'll tell my friend to get another guy....but i'm sure >she'll refuse....he's one of that once-in-a lifetime oportunities) >What Theosophy has to tell in this rather strange strange case?? > >Estrella > >P.S. Please answer me folks!! I know this is not SO important as the >manymany changes of the words on the SD , but can you take a little time >to answer?? We'll be delighted! :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:33:32 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: The Theosophy Company & Blavatsky's writings Message-ID: <360930EC.264B@azstarnet.com> SUBJECT: The Theosophy Company & Blavatsky's writings I've received private emails in which a few ULT students have expressed the opinion that I've been *too critical* of the Theosophy Company's republication of HPB's works. First, let me say that the Theosophy Company is to be *commended* for their policy of keeping in print *photographic* facsimile editions of many of HPB's original books. These titles include: THE SECRET DOCTRINE ISIS UNVEILED (as far as I know, this is the only *photographic facsimile* reprint now available) THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (the first edition) THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY These titles have been available for many decades from this Theosophical publisher. I also find very valuable their 3 volume compilation of HPB's THEOSOPHICAL ARTICLES. 165 articles of HPB's have been reprinted in these 3 volumes at an economical price. Also the pamphlet series of these 165 articles is very valuable. But I *still stand* by my critique and analysis of the Theosophy Company's edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and the reprint of A MODERN PANARION. Facts are facts. It is my hope that this publisher might come out with better editions of these writings from HPB's pen. I hope this clarifies my position on these matters. Daniel Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 01:02:11 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: love pop quiz Message-ID: kymsmith@micron.net writes >>What Theosophy has to tell in this rather strange strange case?? > >Unsure about Theosophy, but you got Kym's take on the happenings! .. which is as good or even better! Alan :0) --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:03:16 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1642 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980923210316.00e45adc@mail.eden.com> Directly aiding the needy is traditional in the East. Providing aid to the needy via organizations is very very rare. One of the ways I try to help the needy is when I see people at street corners seeking help. I try to given them a dollar or two. My logic is simple. No one wants to stand in the street corner in very hot or cold weather for fun. If these people are really hungry, my little help may alleviate a bit of their hunger. A very hungry person may try to break into my car or my home causing a lot of damage to get something of very little value. My help may reduce the possibility of such an instance. I have also seen that when someone sees my give a dollar or so, invariably it sets others in the vicinity think and many time others also give what they can. Was not it Lord Buddha who said "let not left hand know what the right hand gives, lest the left hand come in the way of giving"? What a sage saying with much meaning. If everyone tries to help other whatever little they can -- by a kind word, deed or money, it will go a long way to uplift the suffering fellow beings. mkr At 10:47 AM 9/23/1998 -0400, Cybercmh@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 9/22/98 10:09:57 PM, you wrote: > ><be very eager to accept. But will be very protective of any questions on >the spending details and especially when it comes to compensation issues. > >Those of us who are sensitive to the non profit compensation may want to >look at them before we contribute to any non profit groups. > >Many believe it is best to provide charitable help directly to the needy >rather than thru intermediaries even though the intermediaries may have >very laudable aims.>> > >Y'know, I don't begrudge the high salary if that's how you must attract and >retain top talent. Sometimes, though, I don't feel like sending in my money >to someone who is making a lot more than I am. Transferring my wealth to the >wealthier, you know what I mean? I might personally rather give my money to >someone who is worse off than I am, instead of sending my pennies to some guy >driving around in a Mercedes, which makes me feel like a chump. This calls to >mind an incident in a church I once belonged to. It was near Christmas and it >was announced that everyone should be able to afford to contribute at least >$10. I never appreciate someone telling me what I can or cannot afford, in >the first place. Moreover, I noticed that the priest's car was a lot nicer >than mine, which was so old it was starting to fall apart, and I didn't have >enough money to get another one - and I thought to myself, when my car is >nicer than his, then I'll send the money....Meanwhile, I need to take care of >my own business first. >Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:44:21 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: love pop quiz Message-ID: <3607FE14.26822130@usa.net> Hi Consider this problem, folks: In a hipotetical situation a) this friend of mine, who loves all of the occult and that stuff, meets this caracter b) rather strange caracter, a young man, who, in Alan's possible words, his description more accurate could be that of the hermit card of Tarot than the "normal" "average" young man who wants to dance and have fun. consider the part c) That this girl falls in love of this guy, but the guy, as i said before, behaves more like, for saying, a young master-wizard.The boy rejects the girl. What's happening here?? Is it NOT possible that a girl can follow "the narrow path" and have romance at the same time?? she also has to surrender to the karmic destiny and not conquer pure love in her lifetime?? Under what wisdom rules this young man is forgetting of love in his lifetime and accomplish his "duty" whatever that is, instead of love?? what strange thing is happening here?? (I'll think i'll tell my friend to get another guy....but i'm sure she'll refuse....he's one of that once-in-a lifetime oportunities) What Theosophy has to tell in this rather strange strange case?? Estrella P.S. Please answer me folks!! I know this is not SO important as the manymany changes of the words on the SD , but can you take a little time to answer?? We'll be delighted! :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:37:00 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: Theos-World Testing Message-ID: <000401bde68a$7a304120$03e78ccc@nwc.net> Sept 23 HERE HERE HERE Dallas What gives ? Holidays make for silence ? ======================================= Some thoughts: "...no to minds can be absolutely alike." "Polarity is universal, but the polariser lies in our own consciousness..." "In proportion as our consciousness is elevated towards absolute truth, so do we men assimilate it more of less absolutely." "Still each of us can relatively reach the Sun of Truth even on this earth, and assimilate its warmest and most direct rays..." "On the physical plane we may use our mental polariscope, and, analysing the properties of each ray, choose the purest. On the plane of spirituality, to reach the Sun of Truth we must work in dead earnest for the development of our higher nature...[so] the animal man in us may make room for the spiritual, and once aroused from its latent state, the highest spiritual senses and perceptions grow in us in proportion, and develop pari passu with the "divine man." This is what the great adepts, the Yogis in the East and the Mystics in the West, have always done and are still doing." "...absolute truth is as immovable as the mountain of Mahomet..." "Man has to know himself, i.e., acquire the inner perceptions which never deceive, before he can master any absolute truth." `Extracted from HPB's article WHAT IS TRUTH. "Lucifer," Feb. 1888. >Date: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 10:40 AM >From: David Green >Subject: Theos-World Testing >Testing? > >Testing? > >Is anybody there? > >Dallas where are you? > >Chuck? > >Eldon? > >???????????????????? > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 19:52:05 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Non Profits Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980922195205.00697138@mail.eden.com> As reported by AP, in a recent survey of non profit organizations, it was found that the median salary of the executives is $209,914. Here are some of the top paid ones: Salary Benefits Expenses -------- --------- -------- W. Isom, Chairman of 1,728,999 45,431 Cardio Thoracic Surgery Cornell University H Rawlings III 199,580 137,135 26,400 President Cornell University H M Williams 619,621 345,856 11,588 President J Paul Getty Trust L. Slatkin 1,071,667 8,333 Music Director National Symphony Orchestra Kennedy Center for Perf Arts Washington DC J Grifo 1,616,879 20,829 Prof of Reprod Endocri- nology, NY University R M Krasno 258,753 15,200 President Instt of Intl Education NY M B Connolly Jr 263,350 11,566 Executive V P Ducks Unlimited Memphis TN R J Beall 337,390 33,985 CEO Cystic Fibrosis Foundn Bethesda MD J W Rowe 1,163,875 216,250 President Mount Sinai Med Center NY Paul Grogan 323,429 President Local Initiatives Support Group Sheryl Weinstein 545,767 Former Chief Fin Dir Hadassah, the Womens' Zionist Organzn of America (for 10 months) (included 300,000 severance plus 112,700 vacation pay) P D Bell 256,845 28,853 President CARE of Atlanta P Johnson 395,140 30,985 President CARE Foundation (included 179,355 early retirement 120,943 accrued vacation, 49,752 pension contribution) ========================================== Looking at these numbers along with the kind of money that some ministers are making, anyone looking for careers may want to investigate this niche which seem to have great potential. It is usual for all non profits to ask for contributions, which they will be very eager to accept. But will be very protective of any questions on the spending details and especially when it comes to compensation issues. Those of us who are sensitive to the non profit compensation may want to look at them before we contribute to any non profit groups. Many believe it is best to provide charitable help directly to the needy rather than thru intermediaries even though the intermediaries may have very laudable aims. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:28:48 EDT From: Magpie838@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1640 Message-ID: <32216e33.36056580@aol.com> please delete me from this list. thanks From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:13:02 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: HPB's articles: Reprint of A MODERN PANARION by the Theosophy Company Message-ID: <36056FDE.198A@azstarnet.com> [Rough Draft] Tony, Thanks for your various comments. I now want to make a few comments on what Tony writes about reprints of HPB's articles. First Tony's comments, then mine. Tony Maddock wrote: > With SD, ISIS, KEY and VOICE OF THE SILENCE, would always recommend the > facsimiles, and where it is possible, to read HPBs writings in the > originals, as they have gone through a massive amount of editing. The > Theosophy Co (can't explain VofS) & Pasaden would seem to appreciate the > importance of the originals, whereas the editor of the "Collected Writings" > does not, in the sense that he felt it was correct for him to "correct" HPB > and the Mahatmas. It is a different agenda. .......................................... > Also the "Collected Works" 4 vol. ed. are far more accurate to the originals > than the "Collected Writings." But some seem to think that the editor of > the "Collected Writings," was more accurate than HPB. It is something we > all have to work out and decide for ourselves. Daniel Caldwell replies: When Tony writes as follows: >The Theosophy Co (can't explain VofS). . . would seem to appreciate the >importance of the originals, whereas the editor of the "Collected >Writings" does not, in the sense that he felt it was correct for him to >"correct" HPB and the Mahatmas. . . ., I am not so sure that the Theosophy Company *always* appreciates the importance of the originals. Their VOICE edition is one example. ALSO it is quite puzzling/baffling to me why in 1981 the Theosophy Company, LA, decided to reprint A MODERN PANARION: A Collection of Fugitive Fragments from the pen of H.P. Blavatsky. This volume was *first* published in 1895 by The Theosophical Publishing Society, London. Dallas TenBroeck has repeatedly pointed out that G.R.S. Mead and Annie Besant heavily edited the 1893 edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. The U.L.T. in their 1925 history titled THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875-1925 wrote: "Any reader can compare the Original Edition of the 'Secret Doctrine' with the Third and Revised Edition, edited by Mrs. Besant and Mr. Mead. . . . the comparison will show *more than forty thousand changes* from the text of the Original Edition, ranging all the way from mere trivialities, through important alterations, to *deliberate suppression* . . . . (p. 569) As I have shown before, G.R.S. Mead was principally responsible for the editing of this 1893 SD edition. And I have reason to believe that G.R.S. Mead was ALSO responsible for the editing of A MODERN PANARION. Michael Gomes is also of this opinion. Therefore, have HPB's articles in A MODERN PANARION been subjected to Mead's habit of "correcting", "altering" and "deleting"? If one has access to HPB's orginal articles, one can answer this question by simple COMPARISON. In the very last article printed in MODERN PANARION, titled "Reincarnation in Tibet", the first paragraph (p. 497) reads: "So little is known by Europeans of what is going on in Tibet, and even in the more accessible Bhutan, that an Anglo-Indian paper - one of those which pretend to know, and certainly discuss every imaginable subject, whether they really know anything of it or not - has actually come out with the following scrap of valuable information:" Turning to THE THEOSOPHIST, March 1882, p. 146, this paragraph reads: "So little is known by Europeans of what is going on in Tibet, and even in the more accessible Bhootan, that an Anglo-Indian paper, - one of those which pretend to know, and certainly discuss every blessed subject, whether they really know anything of it or not, - actually came out with the following bit of valuable information: - " I'm sure all readers can see THE differences. Even Boris de Zirkoff's transcription of this paragraph in the "Collected Writings" series is more accurate than this! There are even more diffferences in the rest of the article, including rearrangement of parts of sentences, etc. The original article under consideration ends with these words from HPB: "The little that can be given out will be found in a paper on the 'Holy Lha' which we hope to publish in our next." The editor of A MODERN PANARION has deleted this sentence. On pp. 401-409 of A MODERN PANARION, one will find "The Six-Pointed and Five-Pointed Stars." Upon turning to the original publication of this article in THE THEOSOPHIST, Nov, 1881, pp. 31-33, one finds that this article has been heavily edited. For example, the original 1881 article has many words in italics and caps. Much of this has been changed in MODERN PANARION. There is at least one deletion also. Etc. etc. Now I must also say that many of the articles in MODERN PANARION have only a minimum of editing. But almost all of the articles (written by HPB from 1874 to 1878) have different titles in MODERN PANARION. The original titles have been deleted and new titles "invented". IMO, it is somewhat ironic that the ULT/Theosophy Company (which has been very critical of G.R.S Mead's editing of the 1893 edition of the SD) would decide to reprint, promote and sell MODERN PANARION!! I would have thought that some ULT associate on the TC publications committee would have gone to the original articles of HPB and compared them with what is published in A MODERN PANARION. Just one hour of comparison would have alerted the TC committee to what I have partially outlined in this email. I would suggest that the officials of the Theosophy Company might reconsider their position in selling a volume of HPB's articles which have been "edited" (heavily in some parts) by G.R.S. Mead. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:14:15 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Co. edition compared with the 1889 Original Message-ID: <36040287.6B90@azstarnet.com> Wes, Thanks for you email below. Also thanks for reemphasizing my major points. And I appreciate your own views. Daniel Wes Amerman wrote: > > On September 18, Daniel Caldwell wrote: > > But the important question is: "Why did the 'editor' of the Theosophy > Company edition decide to make changes, then went ahead and made the > changes, and did NOT alert readers to those changes (however minor or > insignificant that editor or you may deem the changes)?" > > In light of your own words, the Theosophy Company edition is certainly > NOT a facsimile of the orginal VOICE. And this edition is NOT a "truly > and accurately VERBATIM" edition since there are "changes or > emendations." Furthermore, the Theosophy Company's edition contains > changes and emendations but the reader is not told this. How many ULT > associates currently know that this edition is "edited" and "changed" > from the original 1889 edition? > > Dear Daniel, Dallas and Others, > > As a 'lurker' on this list who hasn't the time to contribute on a > regular basis, I have followed with interest this somewhat convoluted > series of arguments. Daniel, I especially appreciate your > contributions, as you point out the illogic in the thinking of students > who will accept only an 'original edition' from one publisher, but allow > without comment a version with 'minor or insignificant' changes from > another. > > Theosophy Company obviously did the same thing with the Voice that > Boris de Zirkoff and others have done with other works--edit the text to > make it more readable. Frankly, I am grateful to all the theosophical > publishers for making facsimile/verbatim/accurate editions of basic > theosophic texts available. > > I performed the 'experiments' you suggested the other day, and found > that, despite the minor changes made in the Theosophy Company edition of > the Voice of the Silence, it 'read' true to the original. I agree--TC > should have said something about minor editing! ('665 "changes in > punctuation, italics, quotation marks, capitals, spelling of Sanskrit > words, omission of the important diacritical marks over the vowels, and > others" in the current edition of the Voice issued by The Theosophy > Company' is a bit much to go without comment!) I am one of those ULT > Associates who did not know that the TC edition of the Voice has been > "edited" and "changed." Perhaps that can be corrected in the next > printing. (Hhmmm, 1928, then 1987, we'll need another printing about > 2046.....) Or, perhaps they will simply choose to sell the TUP > 'facsimile' edition? > > But, no matter. Most readers of Shakespeare don't have access to > original Folios of his work, either, and it still survives. Slight > editing over 400 years has done little to change the meaning, value or > availability of his plays. More important has been the changes in > language over the centuries, but that is another story. Come on, > Dallas, let's admit TC made a mistake, admit the value of verbatim/ > slightly edited editions of the S.D. (like deZirkoff's) and move on. > > Best Regards, > > Wes Amerman From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:55:31 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: On Authenticity Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980919145531.007b5330@pophost.micron.net> Daniel wrote: >But the important question is: "Why did the 'editor' of the Theosophy >Company edition decide to make changes, then went ahead and made the >changes, and did NOT alert readers to those changes (however minor or >insignificant that editor or you may deem the changes)?" Probably the SAME reason King James and others throughout history have fiddled and meddled with other people's writings: The belief that either the author or the public is confused and they (the editors) understand more clearly what is important and what is not important. In my dealings with my publisher, she would often change something I had written and say "Well, this is what you really mean" or "They (the public) won't understand this" or "Isn't this your point rather than what it sounds like you're suggesting?" And guess who won when it came down to the final draft and printing? Nor was there any notation or other hint that the publisher, rather than I, had made such changes. Now - imagine what editors do with writings in which the author is dead and not around to protest. So, the answer to your question that I pose can be said in one word: Humans. Most everything we have available to read has been interpreted and re-interpreted - which is why declaring something "authoritive" is akin to spittin' in the wind. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 07:43:18 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Public Standards Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980920074318.00893710@mail.eden.com> In normal times, the material in Starr report as well as the accompanying material would have raised a lot of objections from politicians in congress and fundamentalists and others as unfit for TV and print media and is corrupting the children. Last year congress passed a bill for censoring Internet which was shot down by courts. Even AOL tried to list certain words as offensive and unfit and filtered messages containing them ended up with strange results -- banned the word *breast* and found that breast cancer victims could not discuss their life threatening conditions. All that has changed as millennium approaches. Now everything is ok on TV and Internet, no matter whether it is XXX or XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. What a shifting standard and USA is setting standards which rest of the world to follow. I am sure a lot of money could have been made by publishing the Starr material if not for the fact that there is no copyright in them (sorry folks, who think copyright law is the big club to use and misuse -- sometime ago someone claimed that unpublished material could not even be disclosed under copyright law, which was totally wrong -- this coming from a scholar and well read well known person). What next? All the rating system will be overhauled with newer system soon. Keep tuned in. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:53:53 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: Theos-World spiritual versus psychical experiences Message-ID: <000101bde335$b1ba7280$ae0e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Sept 18th 1998 Dear Jerry: Here is the thing that has puzzled me for a long time. Let me base myself on what HPB says on p. 181 of the SD Vol. 1. HPB lists 3 lines of Monadic evolution that conjoin in Man. 1. Monadic (spiritual) 2. Intellectual (Manasic) 3. Physical (Physical and Astral forms) As I understand it from what is said in the footnote at the bottom of p. 174-5 SD I, the MONAD is a spiritual duad (in manifestation), a center of energy if you please defined as Atma-Buddhi by HPB, since Buddhi is needed so as to afford Spirit (Atma) any contact with lower planes. To this is added Manas (the reasons being given in SD I 243-245 ). Is this fair so far ? On SD I 245fn, HPB says that the "personality" has to cling to the Monad, and to partake of its divine nature to obtain "immortality." But, by definition the personality consisting of several planes/states of conscious experience is itself an aggregation of non-self-conscious Monads. An intelligence has caused them to come to a center and to aggregate and acquire a limited type of consciousness (a stone becomes a plant, an animal, a man ....) 3rd division ] Seems to me that consciousness and awareness, attentiveness, concentration, will, determination, meditation - under whatever names - are the forces that we (the REAL MAN, or Atma-Buddhi-(Higher-Manas) in this, its probationary stage of evolution can use to make conscious contact from this plane to the Spiritual base of its primary REALITY. ( I find I am scrambling for the right words to express myself in. ) [ This is the 2nd division ] Here I am awake, reading your comments, reading mine, seeking for the bridge of clarity that will illuminate them both and reconcile what I sense is only a difference in terms, -- why do I go to the SD ? To seek for the expressions that HPB has drawn from the ancient research that helps to disentangle these mixed threads of consciousness and experience. I go to TRANSACTIONS of the BLAVATSKY LODGE ( ULT Edn., pp. 66 to 76) as I find there, that in discussing dreams, HPB has shown how the waking consciousness (you and I here and now, enveloped in Kama-desire and passions) finds it difficult to rise to understand its own "Father" the Higher Manas (as it (Lower Manas) is a "ray" from this thrown onto the sensitive surface of our brain matter) and with still greater difficulty the spiritual qualities that are of the nature of Atma-Buddhi. HPB says that 1. It is difficult to still the appeal of our desires and passions (Kama) which are by definition selfish and short-sighted. I say short-sighted, because they do not envisage goals that pass beyond our physical death in this life. This gives us our impatience, pride, and ambition. 2. This process of bringing the Kamic nature to a standstill. Is said to be achieved by meditation. 3. But, meditation on what ? The selection of a subject for deep thought -- this is apparently vital. Here is where the old books suggest the ideas of universality, impersonality and generosity (all comprehended in the idea of Brotherhood as an active way of life, and based on a grasp of one's essential immortality as the Atma-Buddhi-Manasic SELF (The REAL MAN). So the first injunction is the old: "Man, know thyself." And this seems to be a very slow process, and most of us are very impatient. We try to by pass this. But according to esotericism as explained in HPB's articles relative to chelaship and the difference between the Psychic and the Noetic ( see HPB PSYCHIC AND NOETIC ACTION ) such a knowledge alone enables us, from this waking plane of consciousness, to purify and refine our inner "tools" in the physical, psychic, and mental planes/states. I would say that it is spiritual aspiration towards the embodiment of the "virtues" (or Parmitas of the VOICE) that does it, and this is recommended by all "spiritual" Schools of self-progression and self-refinement - if one desires to make the inner Spiritual Self ( the MONAD - HIGHER SELF ) active in our lives. 4. If one speaks of forms, colors and other sensations, which we perceive in retrospect out of our memories (usually incomplete, as we apparently are rarely able to participate in such "dreams" or "visions," we may be seeing those forms and ideas which the WAKING CONSCIOUSNESS, here and now, is able to comprehend. In other words, the actual experience may be in quite a different context or form and we do not know it, because the chain of consciousness is broken. The surviving impression, perhaps focused by the HIGHER SELF, is then expressed in terms that we understand here and now with our waking, physically embodied minds. 5. If this is true then our real effort is to forge and eventually use such a "chain of consciousness" which bridges the gap between those states, whether psychic or spiritual. It is the "Lower-Mind" consciousness, that, realizing the supernal nature of the interior HIGHER SELF, its "Real" and "True," tries to reach up to it, and become one with it, so as to employ its ideals in daily life and work. 6. I tend to agree with your definitions as to the difference between those sensations and ideas that flow to our waking brain-consciousness after such an event. But what troubles me is that we are passive while those events occur, and what we now see is only the memory, not the event itself. How do we learn to make our waking consciousness awake and active in either the psychic or the spiritual state, so that we know we are in control ? And there is where I am, finally, in all this reply. We have apparently three levels of experience for the eternal immortal Monads: 1. unconsciousness and inexperience, (Monadic essence, chaotic, cosmic, cometary, mundial, or "root" matter in general - mulaprakriti ?) 2. Self-consciousness, (Mankind - embodied mind at various levels of 'awakening' ?), and 3. Universal Spiritual, Noetic, Psychic, physical consciousness which being individualized and fully spiritualized is able to pass through every plane and see all experiences. (The condition and work of the Adepts, Mahatmas, Bodhisattvas, Buddhas, etc... all participating voluntarily in the vast evolutionary processes of Nature) Does it make any sense to you ? Dal. ========================================= >From: Jerry Schueler >Sent: Friday, September 18, 1998 5:24 AM >Subject: Re: Theos-World spiritual versus psychical experiences >The difference as I understand it between "Spiritual" and >"Psychic" experience, vision, etc... lies in motive .. Dallas, I have to disagree here (nothing new, huh :-) ). You can have a really altruistic motive for either type of experience. >From my own observations, I have to say that the chief difference is that psychism always has forms, colors, and details, while spiritual experiences are formless and have no detail at all (they are, in fact, "mind blowing" experiences). After a psychic experience, we simply recall what we experienced. But after a spiritual experience, we have to clothe it in ideas, thoughts, and then words in order to understand it and communicate it. During this interpretation exercise, much of the actual spiritual experience is lost, and it becomes couched in both cultural and personal details that probably weren't in the original pure experience at all. >What I am trying to say is that we, as a Monadic center that is >striving to universalize itself, employs imagination and will to >try to contact those areas of the universal Akasic record where >(either internally, or from those universal records) we can >experience the information recorded there, and so, to say, we >become participants and spectators of those. > Here again I take issue. Its a subtle point, but an important one, I think. The divine monad doesn't strive to do anything. It already is pure and perfect and complete. It doesn't need to read the akashic records, nor does it care because it is so far higher than that stuff. We human beings are the one who reads these records. We do the striving, and so on. Just a few thoughts, for what they may be worth, Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:38:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: The First Message-ID: <199809182038.QAA11357@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Kym, I share your incredulity, but there *are* perfect people on this earth, this I know cause the Theosophical Bible tells me so. And of course HPB never told a lie; anyone who says she did should be drawn and quartered. Actually, I initially recoiled from the idea of having ever lied. Certainly never lied about infidelity. But then I remembered the old parental questions like "Where are you going tonight?" and realized that yeah, rather than say "None of your business" I would mumble something untrue. Haven't we all? Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:50:35 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Re: Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Co. edition compared with the 1889 ORIGINAL Message-ID: <3602FFDB.6AD8@azstarnet.com> Dallas wrote: > I have stated what I found personally in regard to the T. Co. > Edition. My answers made earlier today to you are based on the > 1892 edition of the VOICE I have in hand (and the 1987 printing > of the T. Co. edition), and I assumed (was I wrong ?) that the > 1892 edition was the same printing as the original, which I do > not have at hand. I note in it that on p. 42, and p. 69 the word > is "Upadhyaya." In Sanskrit this would be correct as I have > heard Pundits pronounce it. Was it " Upadhya" in the original > 1889 edition ? As I said, mine is not with me. Daniel replies: Dallas, let us be as clear on this matter as possible so that all interested readers of this exchange will have a better understanding of the underlying issues. In the 1889 edition of THE VOICE, on pp. 45, 51, and 87, one finds the following spelling of the word under consideration: P. 45 UPADYA P. 51 Upadya's P. 87 Upadya [Word is in italics.] In your text above, Dallas, you say that the 1892 edition spells this word as Upadhyaya. Therefore, some "editor" has changed the spelling from the 1889 edition to the 1892 version. Now I ask you, what is the spelling of this word in The Theosophy Company's edition? Dallas wrote: > I stated earlier to you that it is quite clear to me that the T. > Co. edition of the text of the VOICE has changes in format, > punctuation, numbering, footnotes, and even in the spelling of > some of the "foreign" words (as diacritical marks were not used). > No argument there. Why should I not recommend the T. Co. edition > ? Did you find any changes in meaning ? The difference in the > PREFACE as to the spelling of "Bhagavad Gita / Bhagavadgita" seem > to me to fall under this. In any case that is not the TEXT of > the VOICE. Daniel replies: In the original edition of THE VOICE, in HPB's preface, we find the following in the 2 paragraphs quoted in my previous email: ". . . (Bhagavat-gita II. 70). . . ." ". . . (Bhagavatgita II. 27). . . ." [Both words are in italics.] Dallas, what is the spelling of this Hindu text in the Theosophy Company's edition? And are the numbers [ II. 70 & II. 27 ] also given in the Theosophy Company's edition? Dallas wrote: >Why should I not recommend the T. Co. edition? Did you find any >changes in meaning? Daniel replies: But my question, Dallas, is why WOULD you want to recommend the Theosophy Company's edition? Just 5 days ago, you wrote: >I prefer a facsimile edition - no question of authenticity. Comments >and changes can be put in an ADDENDUM for students to consult. >Verbatim editions are acceptable, if truly and accurately VERBATIM - no >changes or emendations or interpolations. Any such can be handled >through an ADDENDUM. In light of your own words, the Theosophy Company edition is certainly NOT a facsimile of the orginal VOICE. And this edition is NOT a "truly and accurately VERBATIM" edition since there are "changes or emendations." Furthermore, the Theosophy Company's edition contains changes and emendations but the reader is not told this. How many ULT associates currently know that this edition is "edited" and "changed" from the original 1889 edition? Again, Dallas, you ask me: >Did you find any changes in meaning? Dallas, there are some 665 changes. I would have to look at each change and compare it to the original 1889 edition. But the important question is: "Why did the 'editor' of the Theosophy Company edition decide to make changes, then went ahead and made the changes, and did NOT alert readers to those changes (however minor or insignificant that editor or you may deem the changes)?" And if this "editor" can make 665 "silent" changes, why be so critical of editing by G.R.S Mead or Boris de Zirkoff of THE SECRET DOCTRINE? I am looking forward to Tony Maddock's and Paul Bazzer's assessments of the 665 "changes in punctuation, italics, quotation marks, capitals, spelling of Sanskrit words, omission of the important diacritical marks over the vowels, and others" in the current edition of the Voice issued by The Theosophy Company. Thanks, Dallas, for your replies. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:56:34 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Bhagavat Gita/Bhagavatgita/ Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980919085634.009d16a0@mail.eden.com> Recently two ways of spelling of the well known Indian Sacred work was mentioned - Bhagavat Gita and Bhagavatgita. Is there any implication by the way the name is spelt? I personally think, from a novice stand point, that the basic message of Krishna to Arjuna contained in the document is what is important than how its name is written. And again, *if* it is considered as an inspired work, then we need to go beyond the work and try to understand the reality it tries to present. Any comments? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:15:43 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: The Mahatma Letters: the occult code? Message-ID: <3603BC8F.CD0@azstarnet.com> Eldon B Tucker wrote: > In 1972 I was in the British > Museum, and compared a page or two of the third edition of THE > MAHATMA LETTERS to the actual letters, and found a few words to be > different. > > Should one study the letters from a photographic image of them, > showing the handwriting, position of words on the page, actual text > written without any editorial changes/corrections, etc.? Eldon, this is a good series of questions? The 3rd edition of the Mahatma Letters does not conform completely to the original MSS in the British Library. In many cases the editors of the 3rd edition have changed words whereas the Mahatma had written something else. In fact, I believe the 2nd edition may have its advantages. Would Tony M. and Paul B. advocate only studying the original letters or facsimiles of those original letters? Is there some "occult danger" in reading/studying the Mahatma Letters in book form? Especially since the Mahatmas in their letters did not want these letters published in their entirety. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:43:37 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: New McCarthyism Message-ID: <69faf539.3603d129@aol.com> In a message dated 9/18/98 12:34:01 PM Central Daylight Time, pjohnson@vsla.edu writes: << Congress doesn't give a damn about intimidating the public into acquiescing in the character assassination of the most popular president in decades. >> Oh hell! Clinton brought this on himself by denying it in the first place. If he just made it clear from the beginning that he and Hillary had an open marriage, all the fulminating in the world would not matter. Personally, after reading the accounts of his rather boring trists, I think he should be impeached for lack of imagination. If that was all my girlfriend and I ever did we would have become very tired of each other in a week! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:16:38 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition Message-ID: <3601C286.F39@azstarnet.com> Daniel wrote: > > An accurate verbatim reproduction of the Voice is available from > > Theosophical University Press, Pasadena, CA. There are three other > > editions of the Voice in print which are superior (IMO) to the > > Theosophy Company's edition. Paul asked: > What three editions are these? Daniel replies: (1) The Second Quest edition of the Voice published by TPH Wheaton, Illinois, USA. This edition includes: (a) index (b) historical introduction by Boris de Zirkoff (c) same pagination as original (d) almost verbatim with original (2) Kessinger Publications has issued a facsimile reprint of the original 1889 edition. (3) H.P.B. Library, Canada has a reprint of the Peking edition of the Voice. Edited by Alice Cleather and Basil Crump. Pagination the same as original. Cleather and Crump have made corrections but they are indicated in an informative addendum. Etc. etc. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:43:57 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980917214357.01af1c90@mail.eden.com> At 10:25 PM 9/17/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Daniel wrote: > >> > An accurate verbatim reproduction of the Voice is available from >> > Theosophical University Press, Pasadena, CA. There are three other >> > editions of the Voice in print which are superior (IMO) to the > > Theosophy Company's edition. > >Paul asked: > >> What three editions are these? > >Daniel replies: > >(1) The Second Quest edition of the Voice published by TPH Wheaton, >Illinois, USA. This edition includes: What awas the year of publication of this edition? > >(a) index >(b) historical introduction by Boris de Zirkoff >(c) same pagination as original >(d) almost verbatim with original Does almost verbatim mean there are changes/corrections etc? > >(2) Kessinger Publications has issued a facsimile reprint of the >original 1889 edition. Was this done recently? > >(3) H.P.B. Library, Canada has a reprint of the Peking edition of the >Voice. Edited by Alice Cleather and Basil Crump. Pagination the same >as original. Cleather and Crump have made corrections but they are >indicated in an informative addendum. Etc. etc. > Does anyone know if any of the above is available on the WWW? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:57:27 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: A first! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980917215727.007b43e0@pophost.micron.net> Christine wrote: >[Kym] <never again be trusted?>> > >[Christine] Speak for yourself. Hmmm. Well, you're the FIRST person I have ever "met" who has implied they have never lied. How do you handle it when someone asks you if the dinner they made you was good if it was bad, etc. . .? Life would be very difficult and require masterful diplomatic skills (to keep from hurting people's feelings unnecessarily) for one to go barely a single day without telling something that is not quite true. If you have learned how to do that, my hat is off to you. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:36:57 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: RE: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition compared with the ORIGINAL Message-ID: <000301bde2df$814c7d60$a80e97cf@netway.nwc.net> Sept 17th 1998 Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE Dear Daniel: Upon receiving your note of the 16th I pulled out my 2nd Edn ( or printing ?) 1892 done by the TPH in London. My 1st printing 1889 Edn. ?) is with a friend and not handy for the moment. So I venture to give a tentative answer to the observations made based on this 2nd printing (1892).. I looked up in Webster's dictionary the meaning of "Verbatim." It says : "word for word, in the same words." I have in the past checked the T. Co. edition with the original 1889 VOICE, of which I have a copy autographed by HPB, (that I purchased in 1964 from John Watkins in London) and found it to be indeed "word by word, in the same words." Dr. Stokes notes on the T. Co. 1928 edition are substantially correct as those changes were introduced when the VOICE was reprinted in 1928 by T. Co., and continue to be reproduced in the same fashion. However those changes do not relate to the words, but to the use of a different kind of format and punctuation to indicate footnotes. This was done deliberately, I am told, for the benefit of students, as they read the text. On receipt of your note and comments, I then proof read a good portion of the book, comparing it, today, with the original that I have at hand, and did so partly consecutively and partly at random, again comparing that original (Edn. of 1892 ) with the current Theosophy Company edition reprinted in 1987. I found no difference in wording in the text or the footnotes of any significance --other than: in the reset type used by T. Co.; accented types were not used, and the paragraphs of the GLOSSARY have been placed as FOOTNOTES at the bottom of the relevant pages, the sequential numbered "bullets" which indicated those paragraphs in the GLOSSARY of the "original" had been eliminated and normal footnote signs had been substituted for them. The T. Co. edition did not attempt to emulate the original printing in the sense of putting on each page the identical worlds or structure of the original. The main objective of T. Co., as I understand it, was to place a verbatim, textually correct copy of HPB's original VOICE OF THE SILENCE in the hands of students and public who desired to see and read it. And at a most reasonable cost. If you have indeed found something that is totally incorrect as to wording, or that alters meaning and ought not to be there, altering the sense of the original, I would very much like to be advised of it, so I can go to T. C. and see why such a change was made. I do not note from your memo that this is the case. Right ? The VOICE was reprinted by T. Co. in 1987 ISBN 0-938993-06-4 I can only say that our duty as students is to see that future students get trustworthy copies of the original texts. I am glad that other publishers have brought out accurate copies. It is good to know that those who publish Theosophical texts are attempting to place accurate copies in student's hands. On the other hand, you may have a different definition of "verbatim" than I had, or may have something else in mind. Do tell. Best wishes, Dallas >From: Graye/Caldwell >Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 10:37 AM >Subject: Theos-World VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company Edition [Rough Draft] Thanks to Dallas TenBroeck and Paul Bazzer for replying to my questions concerning facsimiles and verbatim reprints of HPB's original editions. We have not heard from Tony Maddock on this matter. I assume that Dallas, Paul and Tony would prefer/use/recommend either facsimile and/or verbatim reprints of HPB's original editions of ISIS, SD, VOICE and KEY. Unfortunately, I believe Dallas is mistaken when he writes: "THEOSOPHY CO. has done a verbatim reprint of the 1889 edition [of The Voice of the Silence.]" In 1928, The Theosophy Company of LA issued the following edition of the Voice: Author: Blavatsky, H. P. (Helena Petrovna), 1831-1891 Title: The voice of the silence. . . / translated and annotated by H.P.B. Published: Los Angeles : Theosophy Co., 1928. Description: iv, 110 p. : port. ; 15 cm. And it appears that the Theosophy Company is STILL selling this edition. I have not bought a copy of the Voice from the Theosophy Company in many years. But see the following information from the Barnes And Nobles online bookstore concerning the edition they are currently selling from the Theosophy Company: Voice of the Silence Helena P. Blavatsky (Translator) $5.00 Hardcover, 110pp. ISBN: 0938998064 Publisher: Theosophy Company Pub. Date: January 1928 This Theosophy Company edition is neither a facsimile nor a verbatim reproduction of the original 1889 edition of HPB's VOICE. The pagination is also different from the original 1889 edition. According to Dr. H.N. Stokes (OE LIBRARY CRITIC, July 1928), he found upon "a most careful comparison, word by word, from beginning to end" of this 1928 edition with "the original H.P.B. London edition of 1889" the following: "There are 665 points of differences, of one sort of another, viz. In the preface. . . . . . . . 34 In the text. . . . . . . . .274 In the notes. . . . . . . . .357 These. . . consist of changes in punctuation, italics, quotation marks, capitals, spelling of Sanskrit words, omission of the important diacritical marks over the vowels, and others. This averages one change to every three or four lines." In about 1985, I obtained a copy of the Voice issued by the Theosophy Company. I started comparing the original 1889 edition with this TC copy. I did not keep count of the changes made but I found literally scores of changes in the TC edition when compared with the original. Also this TC edition I examined had changed the pagination of the original. Furthermore HPB's endnotes had been inserted in the main body of the text as footnotes. Nowhere in the TC edition that I examined did it state that it was a verbatim reproduction of the original or that it was a facsimile edition of the original 1889 edition. Yet most ULT associates I have discussed this with have all *assumed* that it was an accurate reproduction of the original 1889 work. This assumption is probably made because this same publisher offers facsmile editions of the SD, ISIS and the KEY. The unstated reasoning of these students is probably that since TC offers these reliable facsimiles, then the Voice must be ALSO a reliable reproduction of the original. In summary, based on the criteria previously agreed upon by Dallas, Paul and Tony, this Theosophy Company edition does NOT meet those standards. If G.R.S. Mead, Annie Besant and Boris de Zirkoff are to be criticized for making numerous changes in various Blavatsky writings, then what criticisms should be leveled at the officials at The Theosophy Company (and U.L.T.?) for the 665 changes in their edition of the VOICE? An accurate verbatim reproduction of the Voice is available from Theosophical University Press, Pasadena, CA. There are three other editions of the Voice in print which are superior (IMO) to the Theosophy Company's edition. Daniel Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 06:08:41 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980918060841.009d01a0@mail.eden.com> At 04:42 AM 9/18/1998 -0400, W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > >I can only say that our duty as students is to see that future >students get trustworthy copies of the original texts. I am glad >that other publishers have brought out accurate copies. It is >good to know that those who publish Theosophical texts are >attempting to place accurate copies in student's hands. > While I have been exposed to theosophy for several years, it is only recently I have come to recognize the importance of accurate copies of the original classics. But for the efforts of the various publishing entities who have taken the trouble of providing such copies who knows we may all have ended up with "abridged" "edited" editions, while there may a market for such editions. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 05:27:16 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition compared with the ORIGINAL Message-ID: <360251A4.791A@azstarnet.com> Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition compared with the ORIGINAL (or What is good for the goose is also good for the gander??) Paul Bazzer and Tony Maddock have been quite vocal in their criticisms about the shortcomings of Boris de Zirkoff's edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. [Dallas TenBroeck has also given criticisms of the Mead/Besant edition of the SD as well as comments on Boris de Zirkoff's SD edition.] I hope that they will be equally forthright with their views (and criticisms??) concerning the Theosophy Company's edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. What are their opinions of the fact that there are numerous changes between the original 1889 edition of THE VOICE and the Theosophy Company's current edition. In 1928, Dr. H.N. Stokes commented on these changes: "There are 665 points of differences, of one sort of another, viz. In the preface. . . . . . . . 34 In the text. . . . . . . . .274 In the notes. . . . . . . . .357 These. . . consist of changes in punctuation, italics, quotation marks, capitals, spelling of Sanskrit words, omission of the important diacritical marks over the vowels, and others. This averages one change to every three or four lines." Notice Stokes' words: "changes in . . . spelling of Sanskrit words". I will deal with these changes in spelling in my next email. Even Dallas in his recent comments on these "changes" admits that the Theosophy Company's edition alters the original pagination of the VOICE: >However those changes do not relate to the words, but to the use of a different kind of format and >punctuation to indicate footnotes. This was done deliberately, I am told, for the benefit of students, as >they read the text. Well, Boris de Zirkoff ALSO made changes in the SD concerning the "formatting" of the pages and "this was [no doubt] done deliberately. . . for the benefit of students, as they read the text." But both Paul and Tony were highly critical of this. [Formatting in BdZ's SD edition involved reformatting the paragraphs on each page, putting quoted material in a different size font from that of HPB's own words.] ALSO Tony Maddock wrote sometime ago on theos-talk: >Both facsimiles [of the SD by Theosophy Company and Theosophical University Press] preserve the original SD >of HPB and the Masters. >It is incredible that one has to go outside the Adyar TS to get a facsimile of the original edition [of the >SD]. Well, Tony, does the Theosophy Company's edition of the VOICE also "preserve the *original* VOICE of HPB and the Masters"? And, Tony, is it not ALSO "incredible that one has to go outside the ULT to get a facsimile of the original edition [of the Voice]"??!! In my next email I will deal with Dallas' comments on the Theosophy Company's edition of the VOICE. Daniel Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:10:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: New McCarthyism Message-ID: <199809181710.NAA11155@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> The Internet is certainly showing its ugly side these days. By more than a 2-1 majority, the American people said in polls that they *did not want to know the sexual details* of the Lewinsky/Clinton affair. Congress and the media forced them down our throats anyway. Afterwards, by more than a 2-1 margin, the public still said that we didn't need or want to know these details. Having been responsible for unleashing sexual hysteria on a country that has been fed up with it all year, Congress now is "SHOCKED!" to find themselves victims of this. Henry Hyde is talking about investigating who told his story, and promises retribution in the form of charges of "intimidating Congress." Congress doesn't give a damn about intimidating the public into acquiescing in the character assassination of the most popular president in decades. The only solace that I can find on the basis of spiritual beliefs comes from Cayce rather than Theosophy. He described 1998 as the point when we would really begin to understand the Aquarian Age, an era in which there would be a "new medium of exchange." "For as the earth and the people of same enter Aquarius, the air, we find that the electrical forces, electronics and energies will be the ruling influences." It's clear that the executive branch is less in control of things than it has been in a long time. But if the legislative and judicial branches think that they are gaining by the recent opening of Pandora's box, they will soon be aware that this is a lose/lose scenario. Every American is threatened by the abolition of privacy. Everyone in the world is. And electronics is the ruling influence making that so. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:53:49 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition compared with the ORIGINAL Message-ID: <3602AC3D.27AA@azstarnet.com> Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition compared with the ORIGINAL (Continuing the theme that "what is good for the goose is also good for the gander".) Dallas wrote: >Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE . . . > Upon receiving your note of the 16th I pulled out my 2nd Edn ( or > printing ?) 1892 done by the TPH in London. My 1st printing > 1889 Edn. ?) is with a friend and not handy for the moment. So I > venture to give a tentative answer to the observations made based > on this 2nd printing (1892).. To my understanding, the 2nd printing was actually in 1890. In 1892 The Theosophical Publishing Company, London published a new "edition" of the VOICE. My notes indicate it had 75 pp. which is not the original pagination. Is this the edition you are using? If so, how do you know this 1892 edition is verbatim with the 1889 edition? Dallas wrote: > I looked up in Webster's dictionary the meaning of "Verbatim." > It says : "word for word, in the same words." > > I have in the past checked the T. Co. edition with the original > 1889 VOICE, of which I have a copy autographed by HPB, (that I > purchased in 1964 from John Watkins in London) and found it to be > indeed "word by word, in the same words." Daniel replies: Dallas, this is how I would define verbatim reproduction: The Theosophical University Press (Pasadena, CA) has currently in print "A Verbatim Reproduction of the original edition of 1889." The pagination is the same as the 1889 edition. As far as I can tell, there are NO changes between this TUP edition and the original. ZERO CHANGES On the other hand, Dr. Stokes counted 665 "changes in punctuation, italics, quotation marks, capitals, spelling of Sanskrit words, omission of the important diacritical marks over the vowels, and others" in the current edition of the Voice issued by The Theosophy Company. Dallas, that is 0 versus 665 changes. THEREFORE, I consider the TUP edition verbatim, not the TC edition. With 665 changes, I would not consider the TC edition a verbatim one---it has been . . . . EDITED. Now recently in response to my email on "Facsimile editions of Blavatsky's Writings", you wrote: >I prefer a facsimile edition - no question of authenticity. Comments and changes can be put in an ADDENDUM for students to consult. >Verbatim editions are acceptable, if truly and accurately VERBATIM - no changes or emendations or interpolations. Any such can be handled through an ADDENDUM. Dallas, if you prefer a facsimile edition, why do you use/recommend the Theosophy Company's edition? Again, you say that "verbatim editions are acceptable. . . [if they have] no changes or emendations or interpolations. . . ." Well, the Theosophy Company's edition has 665 changes and emendations. Why do you prefer this "edited" edition rather than the Theosophical University Press's truly "verbatim edition"? Dallas, numerous times on theos-talk you have criticized the 1893 edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. Just recently on Sept. 13, you wrote: >Back in the 1920's/30's several students who desired to study the original writings of HPB compared the 1888 Edition of S D with the 1893 "Third and Revised Edition". . . . >Those early students who made their comparisons, reported in over 40,000 changes made in the text. --- some major and some minor. I compared the first page of the SD using both editions for myself, and found over 30 changes. That was enough use of my time - I was 18 then. . . . . Now you say that there are over 40,000 changes made in the 1893 edition of the SD. But you do not tell us what KIND of changes you are talking about. Now Dr. Stokes says that the TC edition of the VOICE has 665 "changes in punctuation, italics, quotation marks, capitals, spelling of Sanskrit words, omission of the important diacritical marks over the vowels, and others." Dallas, what percentage of the 40,000 changes in the 1893 SD fall under the "list of changes" given by Dr. Stokes? I ask you to think about this because, your latest reply conveys the message that those 665 changes in the VOICE are NOT really "significant." Would you therefore admit that possibly the majority of those 40,000 changes in the SD are also insignificant? Dallas, you write: > I found no difference in wording in the text or the footnotes of > any significance --other than: in the reset type used by T. Co.; > accented types were not used, and the paragraphs of the GLOSSARY > have been placed as FOOTNOTES at the bottom of the relevant > pages, the sequential numbered "bullets" which indicated those > paragraphs in the GLOSSARY of the "original" had been eliminated > and normal footnote signs had been substituted for them. Are you trying to tell us that you did NOT find the 665 differences and changes Dr. Stokes found? Concerning the 1893 SECRET DOCTRINE, you wrote: >I compared the first page of the SD using both editions for myself, and >found over 30 changes. That was enough use of my time - I was 18 >then. Compare this statement of yours with Dr. Stokes' statement that the Theosophy Company's edition has 34 changes in HPB's Preface to the VOICE. (This preface consists of only 7 small pages.) Doesn't this statement by Dr. Stokes concern you? Furthermore, are you telling us that you have not found those 34 changes in HPB's Preface? And if there are 34 changes in the Preface, why are they there? Who authorized them? Not HPB, right? Let us do an experiment or two: Below are two paragraphs from HPB's Preface as transcribed from the original 1889 edition. 1st one is the 4th paragraph from the end of HPB's Preface. The 2nd one is the 2nd paragraph from the end of the Preface. FIRST PARAGRAPH: And yet such ethics fill volumes upon volumes in Eastern literature, especially in the Upanishads. "Kill out all desire of life," says Krishna to Arjuna. That desire lingers only in the body, the vehicle of the embodied Self, not in the SELF which is "eternal, indestructible, which kills not nor is it killed" (Katha Upanishad). "Kill out sensation," teaches Sutta Nipata; "look alike on pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat." Again, "Seek shelter in the eternal alone" (ibid). "Destroy the sense of separateness," repeats Krishna under every form. "The Mind (Manas) which follows the rambling senses, makes the Soul (Buddhi) as helpless as the boat which the wind leads astray upon the waters" (Bhagavatgita II. 70). [Italics are not shown in the above.] SECOND PARAGRAPH: "Sages do not grieve for the living nor the dead. Never did I not exist, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will any one of us ever hereafter cease to be." (Bhagavatgita II. 27). [Italics are not shown in the above.] Dallas, please compare these 2 paragraphs with the same ones in your copy of the Theosophy Company's current edition. Dallas, will you please tell us what changes occur in the TC edition? For readers of this email who have WWW access, you can read the complete preface to the VOICE as given in the 1889 edition at this URL address: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/voice/voice.htm#preface This Web version will also show the italics. Dallas, if you have access to this Web page, compare for yourself the 1889 preface with the preface in the Theosophy Company's edition? Are there changes? And why did the Theosophy Company see fit to make these changes? Were they REALLY needed? ANOTHER EXPERIMENT. In Fragment III of the Voice, the very first paragraph (verse) of that section reads in the 1889 edition: "UPADYA (1), the choice is made, I thirst for Wisdom. Now hast thou rent the veil before the secret Path and taught the greater Yana (2). Thy servant here is ready for thy guidance." Dallas, I'm curious, how does the Theosophy Company edition give this paragraph or verse? Are there changes between the 2 editions? Dallas, in light of the fact that there are some 665 changes in the Theosophy Company's edition of the VOICE (which edition you recommend), how do YOU RECONCILE your recommendation of an edition with 665 changes with what you said earlier about THE SECRET DOCTRINE and your views about the STANDARDS by which reprints of HPB's works should be judged??? I quote below what you had written sometime ago: >I do not have the time to re-do all that work. I am satisfied that >there are changes and whether they are good or bad, whether they >amplify or detract, is not the problem, PROVIDING THEY ARE IDENTIFIED, >so that trusting student can know whether that was what HPB wrote OR >NOT. >Let me go back to my suggestion (though probably not original at all) : >that all reprints in which students who followed HPB isolated and >decided on what they thought was the kind of accuracy needed to improve >that book, LEAVE THE ORIGINAL TEXT UNCHANGED, but place "Bullets" or >some other markers in the margins, and in an ADDENDUM, page by page, >add their comments and proposed changes. That would be fair to future >students, and also raise their personal integrity higher - but what has >happened, although irreversible, need not be perpetuated hereafter. I would be most happy to also hear the views of Paul Bazzer, Tony Maddock and Nicholas Weeks on this subject of the VOICE. Daniel Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:58:08 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1636 Message-ID: In a message dated 9/16/98 8:55:31 PM, you wrote: <> Speak for yourself. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:49:41 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Starr report Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980915234941.007b4470@pophost.micron.net> Paul wrote: >So, what's the Theosophical take on it? Certainly, if theosophists consider themselves in the service of humanity, one huge door has just been opened for theosophists to do just that. Many people, when discussing issues of theosophy or spirituality, think talk about politics and the like do not belong. I couldn't disagree more. Many of the movements that have helped aid humanity in growth and compassion have come under the umbrella of political action. We are now facing a very serious situation that can affect generations to come. Not only will what has occured further ensure the disenfranchisement people feel when it comes to voting and directing their own lives, leaving them dispirited, this will also raise the "negative" karma level of America and those who live here now. Inaction or ignoring the problem does not prevent "negative" karma, either. Starr has not only persecuted a person to a degree that none of us would ever tolerate in our lives or the lives of our loved ones, he has also threatened each of us in our karmic state. Starr and those who support him have no regard for personal rights or respect for the law - if we allow Starr and his buddies to have their way, we will all suffer. And what goes around comes around - if we stand by and let someone persecute someone else - should we find ourselves persecuted, we should NOT expect someone to speak in our defense. Clinton has provided us with the opportunity for each of us to practice forgiveness and compassion - and to really look within ourselves to measure how we would have reacted in the same situation and what it is we value in human beings. It's been said over and over and over how "immoral" or wrong it was what Clinton did. Fine. What now? Is he unable to lead due to it? If we have an extra-marital affair, does that mean we should be removed from our jobs? And, does his lying about an extra-marital affair make all he says from now on suspect? We have ALL lied - are we saying WE should never again be trusted? The messages being pounded, by the media and many members of Congress, into our heads and the heads of those who will take over as we age are very dangerous and threaten to make us harden our hearts. One message is: if WE do it, we can be forgiven; yet, if someone else does it, slam them. Is this the gift we want to give the children? Some people sure think so. I, for one, cannot understand why. We can teach children honesty (although if one ALWAYS told the truth, they would have few friends) and we can teach children about marriage and we can teach children about sex without sacrificing a human being in the process. If Congress overrides the polls (as they have repeated threatened they will do) I hope to God that the people really do march. If they just stay home and take it - then, as usual, the next generation will be faced with having to rectify what today's adults chose to shirk off. Is this subject theosophical? If it isn't, I don't know what is. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:08:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Starr report Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980916070808.01637d40@mail.eden.com> Your response is very timely. Politics is a fact of life and each one of us in our personal capacity should get involved, IMHO, in any and all endeavours which has an impact on our fellow beings. All ones needs to see is Annie Besant's involvement in Indian Independence Movement, even though she was against Gandhi's non cooperation movement and made many members of TS not join the movement. When anyone makes any mistake of any kind, the only thing that can be done is to recognize the mistake and get on with it and not to repeat it. Your point about invasion of privacy is going to be very serious for all of us. When you see grand jury material in public arena, one wonders where everything is going to end in the long run. mkr At 01:57 AM 9/16/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Paul wrote: > >>So, what's the Theosophical take on it? > >Certainly, if theosophists consider themselves in the service of humanity, >one huge door has just been opened for theosophists to do just that. > >Many people, when discussing issues of theosophy or spirituality, think >talk about politics and the like do not belong. I couldn't disagree more. >Many of the movements that have helped aid humanity in growth and >compassion have come under the umbrella of political action. > >We are now facing a very serious situation that can affect generations to >come. Not only will what has occured further ensure the disenfranchisement >people feel when it comes to voting and directing their own lives, leaving >them dispirited, this will also raise the "negative" karma level of America >and those who live here now. Inaction or ignoring the problem does not >prevent "negative" karma, either. > >Starr has not only persecuted a person to a degree that none of us would >ever tolerate in our lives or the lives of our loved ones, he has also >threatened each of us in our karmic state. Starr and those who support him >have no regard for personal rights or respect for the law - if we allow >Starr and his buddies to have their way, we will all suffer. And what goes >around comes around - if we stand by and let someone persecute someone else >- should we find ourselves persecuted, we should NOT expect someone to >speak in our defense. > >Clinton has provided us with the opportunity for each of us to practice >forgiveness and compassion - and to really look within ourselves to measure >how we would have reacted in the same situation and what it is we value in >human beings. It's been said over and over and over how "immoral" or wrong >it was what Clinton did. Fine. What now? Is he unable to lead due to it? >If we have an extra-marital affair, does that mean we should be removed >from our jobs? And, does his lying about an extra-marital affair make all >he says from now on suspect? We have ALL lied - are we saying WE should >never again be trusted? > >The messages being pounded, by the media and many members of Congress, into >our heads and the heads of those who will take over as we age are very >dangerous and threaten to make us harden our hearts. One message is: if WE >do it, we can be forgiven; yet, if someone else does it, slam them. Is >this the gift we want to give the children? Some people sure think so. I, >for one, cannot understand why. We can teach children honesty (although if >one ALWAYS told the truth, they would have few friends) and we can teach >children about marriage and we can teach children about sex without >sacrificing a human being in the process. > >If Congress overrides the polls (as they have repeated threatened they will >do) I hope to God that the people really do march. If they just stay home >and take it - then, as usual, the next generation will be faced with having >to rectify what today's adults chose to shirk off. > >Is this subject theosophical? If it isn't, I don't know what is. > >Kym > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:36:40 -0700 From: Graye/Caldwell Subject: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition Message-ID: <35FFF728.1F9C@azstarnet.com> VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company Edition [Rough Draft] Thanks to Dallas TenBroeck and Paul Bazzer for replying to my questions concerning facsimiles and verbatim reprints of HPB's original editions. We have not heard from Tony Maddock on this matter. I assume that Dallas, Paul and Tony would prefer/use/recommend either facsimile and/or verbatim reprints of HPB's original editions of ISIS, SD, VOICE and KEY. Unfortunately, I believe Dallas is mistaken when he writes: "THEOSOPHY CO. has done a verbatim reprint of the 1889 edition [of The Voice of the Silence.]" In 1928, The Theosophy Company of LA issued the following edition of the Voice: Author: Blavatsky, H. P. (Helena Petrovna), 1831-1891 Title: The voice of the silence. . . / translated and annotated by H.P.B. Published: Los Angeles : Theosophy Co., 1928. Description: iv, 110 p. : port. ; 15 cm. And it appears that the Theosophy Company is STILL selling this edition. I have not bought a copy of the Voice from the Theosophy Company in many years. But see the following information from the Barnes And Nobles online bookstore concerning the edition they are currently selling from the Theosophy Company: Voice of the Silence Helena P. Blavatsky (Translator) $5.00 Hardcover, 110pp. ISBN: 0938998064 Publisher: Theosophy Company Pub. Date: January 1928 This Theosophy Company edition is neither a facsimile nor a verbatim reproduction of the original 1889 edition of HPB's VOICE. The pagination is also different from the original 1889 edition. According to Dr. H.N. Stokes (OE LIBRARY CRITIC, July 1928), he found upon "a most careful comparison, word by word, from beginning to end" of this 1928 edition with "the original H.P.B. London edition of 1889" the following: "There are 665 points of differences, of one sort of another, viz. In the preface. . . . . . . . 34 In the text. . . . . . . . .274 In the notes. . . . . . . . .357 These. . . consist of changes in punctuation, italics, quotation marks, capitals, spelling of Sanskrit words, omission of the important diacritical marks over the vowels, and others. This averages one change to every three or four lines." In about 1985, I obtained a copy of the Voice issued by the Theosophy Company. I started comparing the original 1889 edition with this TC copy. I did not keep count of the changes made but I found literally scores of changes in the TC edition when compared with the original. Also this TC edition I examined had changed the pagination of the original. Furthermore HPB's endnotes had been inserted in the main body of the text as footnotes. Nowhere in the TC edition that I examined did it state that it was a verbatim reproduction of the original or that it was a facsimile edition of the original 1889 edition. Yet most ULT associates I have discussed this with have all *assumed* that it was an accurate reproduction of the original 1889 work. This assumption is probably made because this same publisher offers facsmile editions of the SD, ISIS and the KEY. The unstated reasoning of these students is probably that since TC offers these reliable facsimiles, then the Voice must be ALSO a reliable reproduction of the original. In summary, based on the criteria previously agreed upon by Dallas, Paul and Tony, this Theosophy Company edition does NOT meet those standards. If G.R.S. Mead, Annie Besant and Boris de Zirkoff are to be criticized for making numerous changes in various Blavatsky writings, then what criticisms should be leveled at the officials at The Theosophy Company (and U.L.T.?) for the 665 changes in their edition of the VOICE? An accurate verbatim reproduction of the Voice is available from Theosophical University Press, Pasadena, CA. There are three other editions of the Voice in print which are superior (IMO) to the Theosophy Company's edition. Daniel Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:24:13 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1635 Message-ID: <3212048e.3600024d@aol.com> In a message dated 9/15/98 8:55:49 PM, Chuck wrote: <<<< Do astral palms itch? >> Only when I'm going to get astral money.>> What can you buy with astral money? Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:51:24 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: VOICE OF THE SILENCE---The Theosophy Company edition Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980916135124.00894a10@mail.eden.com> At 02:00 PM 9/16/1998 -0400, you wrote: > >There are three other >editions of the Voice in print which are superior (IMO) to the Theosophy >Company's edition. > >Daniel Caldwell > Which are the three other editions? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:56:45 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1635 Message-ID: <9197af80.360009ed@aol.com> In a message dated 9/16/98 1:30:39 PM Central Daylight Time, Cybercmh@aol.com writes: << What can you buy with astral money? Christine >> I have no idea Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 00:49:19 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1631 Message-ID: <85f0c6f8.35fdf1cf@aol.com> In a message dated 9/14/98 9:46:15 AM Central Daylight Time, Cybercmh@aol.com writes: << Do astral palms itch? >> Only when I'm going to get astral money. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 1994 04:16:22 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: Some errors in Blavatsky online text Message-ID: <2D256996.655B6BBF@usa.net> --------------6B07B2DF232F2BD141C98372 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi friends, just to tell you to notice some errors that i founded when i was going to print for myself the "Key to Theosophy" of HPB. seems to me that something strange happened, i toughted it was me, but, no, seems that the page never came complete! Above is the error. i hope you can recieve the html caracters: (Parts of the "preface" of "Key to theosophy" below) thinking for him, nor would the latter be any the better off if such vicarious thought were possible. The need for such an exposition as the present has long been felt among those interested in the Theosophical Society and its work, and it is hoped that it will supply informatio> Transfer interrupted! *Note the error above.* ities, to many whose attention has been awakened, but who, as yet, are merely puzzled and not convinced. Some care has been taken in disentangling some part of what is true from what is false in Spiritualistic teachings as to the post-mortem life, and to showing the true nature of Spiritualistic phenomena. Previous explanations of a similar kind have drawn much wrath Well, hoping to know of you friends, and maybe some explanation to the strange phenomena. Maybe some internet ghost eated that part?? some spooky virus?? Estrella P.S. BTW, this is extracted from the link: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-hp.htm Thanks. :-) --------------6B07B2DF232F2BD141C98372 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi friends, just to tell you to notice some errors that i founded when i was going to print for myself the "Key to Theosophy" of HPB.
seems to me that something strange happened, i toughted it was me, but, no, seems that the page never came complete!
Above is the error. i hope you can recieve the html caracters:

(Parts of the "preface" of "Key to theosophy" below)
 

thinking for him, nor would the latter be any the better off if such vicarious thought were
possible. The need for such an exposition as the present has long been felt among those
interested in the Theosophical Society and its work, and it is hoped that it will supply
informatio>
 

Transfer interrupted!

*Note the error above.*

ities, to many whose attention has been awakened, but who, as yet, are merely puzzled and
not convinced.

Some care has been taken in disentangling some part of what is true from what is false in
Spiritualistic teachings as to the post-mortem life, and to showing the true nature of
Spiritualistic phenomena. Previous explanations of a similar kind have drawn much wrath
 

Well, hoping to know of you friends, and maybe some explanation to the strange phenomena. Maybe some internet ghost eated that part?? some spooky virus??

Estrella

P.S. BTW, this is extracted from the link:
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-hp.htm

Thanks. :-)
  --------------6B07B2DF232F2BD141C98372-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:52:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Starr report Message-ID: <199809141352.JAA28326@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> So, what's the Theosophical take on it? Seems like this could go the same way as the conservative/liberal conflicts always do within the TM. The conservative would say that sexual misconduct shows a fundamental character weakness that is incompatible with leadership. The liberal would say that the greatest danger is from people who investigate other people's private lives in search of material with which to destroy them. What's new or unique about what Theosophy can contribute to the discussion? I haven't felt like marching in the streets since 1969 when I got arrested at a Moratorium demonstration. But if Congress decides to impeach, I will consider it the darkest day our government has seen in my lifetime and will be out there saying so. Maybe publication on the Internet was inevitable, but that doesn't make it right or just. What other "defendant" has ever been so treated by a "prosecutor" and "court?" This is, to use Clarence Thomas's phrase, a "high-tech lynching." What karma awaits Starr and his minions? Fortunately the American people don't seem to be any more sympathetic to the Starr-Tripp enterprise now than they were before Friday. And world opinion is resoundingly, overwhelmingly, appalled at what Starr has done. PJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:38:40 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1631 Message-ID: <48c8ff2f.35fd2a70@aol.com> In a message dated 9/11/98 8:22:30 PM, you wrote: <> Do astral palms itch? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:39:52 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1631 Message-ID: <54306960.35fd2ab8@aol.com> In a message dated 9/11/98 8:22:30 PM, you wrote: <> Knowing Clinton, it'll probably be "unzipped"... :) Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:35:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: TNR commentary Message-ID: <199809141635.MAA21927@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Found this of interest in the current New Republic. "Certainly, while the press thinks it is owed a full account of the president's behavior, it does not think it has to give a full account of its own. If there is one important law that has been broken in this whole mess, it is the one that forbids federal prosecutors from leaking confidential grand jury proceedings. But no editor is going to assign an investigative reporter to do a story on who is leaking to the paper because the press is actively participating in, and encouraging, the subversion of this law." from Freudian Slip by Jonathan Lear, p. 25, TNR 9/28/98 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 01:49:11 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: A Study in Karma Message-ID: <2ccf1f33.35fb5cd7@aol.com> In a message dated 98-09-12 21:33:06 EDT, you write: << What good or bad Karma awaits Tripp. Who knows. mkr >> She's just lucky it wasn't Kennedy or cement shoes would probably have been awaiting her. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 18:44:33 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Traffic -- Starr Report Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980913184433.00892a10@mail.eden.com> Internet is slowly maturing and at the same time demonstrating its power as medium to distribute information. However, the initiative came from Congress who sought to put it on the Internet as soon as it was released. Whether it was done due to the foresight or the politics or both. But it does point out one thing. Internet is going to cut through all attempts to filter or censor any messages or information so the public gets controlled or censored or sanitized information, which is normally the case with the ageold traditional method of distributing infor. Everyone should heed and learn from the lesson we are learning. mkr CNN reports 12% of adult Americans -- some 20 million people -- used the Internet to access to Starr's report on President Clinton. "It's probably the single highest number of people who have ever used the computer to access a single document," The survey showed 15 percent of American males and 8 percent of females went online to read the document, which includes graphic descriptions of sexual acts that Monica Lewinsky testified she and the president performed. That's 20 million people all logging on to get the same information at the same time,". "CNN Interactive, the traffic was twice the site's daily average and eclipsed all previous traffic volumes. America Online saw its traffic surge 30 percent; on The Associated Press Web site, it was 20 times the normal load." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:18:46 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TI-L digest 468 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980912081846.009c2100@mail.eden.com> A followup. The newspaper in my city is printing the entire report as a separate document for sale at $3.00 a piece and will be available at 3pm today. The newspaper saw this as a business opportunity. BTW, a fairly lengthy excerpt is included in today's paper. ..mkr... At 01:17 AM 9/12/1998 -0400, you wrote: >At 09:24 PM 9/11/1998 -0400, you wrote: >>Washington Post said it plans to publish the Starr report and also post it >at: >>www.washingtonpost.com >>(I don't know whether they mean they'll publish it in the actual newspaper - >>it would seem awfully long for that, but maybe they'll do a special >edition in >>fine print or something.) >>Christine Hanson >> >Washington post, Philadelphia Enquirer, and the Boston Globe are printing >the entire report as perhaps a separate section. >All the postings on the net is in HTML and I am still to find a zipped file >which can be downloaded and read off-line or printed. Still buying the >newspaper would be cheaper and convenient to read. > >mkr > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 20:26:03 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: A Study in Karma Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980912202603.017744e0@mail.eden.com> Recent events relating to Clinton gives an opportunity to speculate on Karma and how one individual can cause a lot of unnecessary trouble, expense and possible prison term for many. Tripp's recordings given to Starr started all this. Millions of dollars has been spent on investigating how many time and what kind of "sex" Clinton had with Monica. Many officials who were called before the grand jury had to hire lawyers to help them. DC lawyers don't come cheap. Now the congress is going to spend a lot of time and money to deal with Starr report. All of the above could have been avoided if only Tripp had kept quiet. What good or bad Karma awaits Tripp. Who knows. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:13:27 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1629 Message-ID: In a message dated 9/9/98 8:55:12 AM, you wrote: <> Sounds a bit too much like the old "you'll grow warts and go blind" mentality to me. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:16:11 EDT From: Cybercmh@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1630 Message-ID: <99861b89.35f7df2b@aol.com> In a message dated 9/10/98 8:23:05 AM, you wrote: <> But what a nightmare if you try to download all 445 pages!! Probably wouldn't be able to use your computer for a week. Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:36:56 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1630 Message-ID: In a message dated 98-09-10 10:22:53 EDT, you write: << <> But what a nightmare if you try to download all 445 pages!! Probably wouldn't be able to use your computer for a week. Christine >> And who, besides politicians and lawyers, would want to read 450 pages of legalese anyway? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:37:52 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1629 Message-ID: <1ccb321a.35f80e70@aol.com> In a message dated 98-09-10 10:23:00 EDT, you write: << <> Sounds a bit too much like the old "you'll grow warts and go blind" mentality to me. Christine >> I wonder if I have hair on my astral palms? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:03:32 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1630 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980910130332.009c1740@mail.eden.com> At 10:22 AM 9/10/1998 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 9/10/98 8:23:05 AM, you wrote: > ><> > >But what a nightmare if you try to download all 445 pages!! Probably wouldn't >be able to use your computer for a week. >Christine It all depends how they post it. If it is ascii file in zipped format, then downloading will not be too much of a trouble. More likely it may be in PDF format which is independent of operating system. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:07:00 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1630 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980910130700.009bb340@mail.eden.com> At 01:46 PM 9/10/1998 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: ><< > <> > > But what a nightmare if you try to download all 445 pages!! Probably >wouldn't > be able to use your computer for a week. > Christine > >> > >And who, besides politicians and lawyers, would want to read 450 pages of >legalese anyway? > >Chuck the Heretic > The report is only the first instalment. Next week the full report of 2,000 pages is to be posted. It is expected to be XXXX rated and much better than all the published books all for free!!! (courtesy of Internet) mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:16:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980910131623.0160c420@mail.eden.com> MSNBC just announced that Starr report will be on Internet at 1.00PM tomorrow. Things move fast these days of electronic communication. Volume and velocity of communication are the key characteristics of today's business. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:16:55 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1630 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980910181655.009a2840@mail.eden.com> It appears that the report has been provided on a diskette and that uploading it to the Internet is being done today and will be available to public tomorrow. I think it will be in ascii or pdf format. mkr At 03:14 PM 9/10/1998 -0400, M K Ramadoss wrote: >At 10:22 AM 9/10/1998 -0400, you wrote: >> >>In a message dated 9/10/98 8:23:05 AM, you wrote: >> >><> >> >>But what a nightmare if you try to download all 445 pages!! Probably >wouldn't >>be able to use your computer for a week. >>Christine > >It all depends how they post it. If it is ascii file in zipped format, then >downloading will not be too much of a trouble. More likely it may be in PDF >format which is independent of operating system. > >..mkr > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:24:43 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1630 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980910182443.00b10530@mail.eden.com> At 10:22 AM 9/10/1998 -0400, Cybercmh@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 9/10/98 8:23:05 AM, you wrote: > ><> > >But what a nightmare if you try to download all 445 pages!! Probably wouldn't >be able to use your computer for a week. >Christine No problem. Two publishers, Pocket Books and PublicAffairs, said Thursday they plan to rush out paperback versions of Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr's report to Congress. Republicans plan to publicly release Starr's 445-page report Friday on the Internet, which means book versions could be in stores by Tuesday. The cost is about $10. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:27:23 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1629 Message-ID: Cybercmh@aol.com writes ><> > >Sounds a bit too much like the old "you'll grow warts and go blind" mentality >to me. PLease resend in Capital LeTTers. I have a job to REEd wot you sed because of my poor sight and wartS. I only meant to risk one eye. Alan --------- Simply Occult .......... http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:33:06 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Boris Zirkoff Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980911073306.018cb900@mail.eden.com> Much discussion has been going on in cyberspace about Boris' edition of SD. I do not know much about Boris. Is Boris an initiate? What are his credentials? Those of us ignorant may benefit from the info. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:37:20 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Starr report -Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980911073720.00acc5a0@mail.eden.com> Thanks for the info. The report would be mirrored in many local newspaper sites. Our local newspaper will have it at: http://www.expressnews.com/news/starr mkr >At 09:21 PM 9/10/1998 -0400, Vincent Beall wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> MSNBC just announced that Starr report will be on Internet at 1.00PM >> tomorrow. Things move fast these days of electronic communication. >> >> Volume and velocity of communication are the key characteristics of today's >> business. >> >> mkr > >Here are three links where the reprort should be available tomorrow: > >http://www.house.gov/icreport/ > >http://thomas.loc.gov/icreport/ > >http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/icreport/ > >I found them by following the links at CNN.COM > >So it goes, first your money, then your clothes... > >Vincent > >-- > >vincent@dmv.com > >http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:51:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Openness and Democracy Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980911075117.00ace340@mail.eden.com> Democracy and openness, as compared to autocracy and lack of openness, is a great world-wide change that is taking place. TV and Internet is playing a very critical role. And United States is in the forefront of the changes The changes we are seeing is more radical than many, IMHO, may recognize it. In many parts of the country it is now criminal for public tax supported bodies conduct their business behind closed doors. Starr report and the plan to make it immediately available on Internet is setting up a new standard for immediate and complete disclosure. Also it makes clear that even the lives of highest office holders is not immune from public scrutiny, whether one likes it or not. I am sure that the Real Founders of TS may have forseen the changes coming down the pike and the expiration of the copyright of the classics such as SD may be going on as planned. Who knows how all this is going to enable theosophy to be made accessible to the public. Only future could tell. Theosophical organizations can look at the changing world and should make the full use of the opportunity. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:23:21 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980910062321.007a4490@mail.eden.com> It is not usual to see bureaucrats use efficient and effective tools due to being bound to old traditions. Now it is changing in Internet world. Starr's report, as soon as it is made public will be posted on Internet. The usual practice is for Govt Printing Office to print and sell printed reports and also print it in the Congressional Report. While this will be done, it will be available on Internet for instant access from anywhere free of cost. I think even Congress is recognizing the power of Internet as a medium of communication, which is amazing. There is a lesson for all organizations, spiritual or business or theosophical. Internet is here to stay and will be a standard means of communication and distribution of information. One does expect Occult Secrets (or presumed Secrets) to be posted on Internet, all organizations intent on distribution information to the world may not want to miss the boat. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 06:32:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet (corrected) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980910063252.0176bb50@mail.eden.com> The post is corrected. It relates to the last para. It is not usual to see bureaucrats use efficient and effective tools due to being bound to old traditions. Now it is changing in Internet world. Starr's report, as soon as it is made public will be posted on Internet. The usual practice is for Govt Printing Office to print and sell printed reports and also print it in the Congressional Report. While this will be done, it will be available on Internet for instant access from anywhere free of cost. I think even Congress is recognizing the power of Internet as a medium of communication, which is amazing. There is a lesson for all organizations, spiritual or business or theosophical. Internet is here to stay and will be a standard means of communication and distribution of information. ======== The following para is the correct one. While one does NOT expect Occult Secrets (or presumed Secrets) to be posted on Internet, all organizations intent on distribution information to the world may not want to miss the boat. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 11:14:01 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: September 1998 HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST Message-ID: <4.0.2.19980908111108.00909970@imagiware.com> The September 1998 issue of THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, edited by Dick Slusser, is online and available at: ftp://theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9809.pdf HCT files carry the extension .PDF (Portable Document File) readable with the Adobe Acrobat reader. It is available free at: http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html. The www homepage is: http://theosophy.com/hct.html The current issue features: Among the Adepts SECRET DOCTRINE Q & A The Book of Hopi Mythology Letters Received From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 15:57:36 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: Re:3RD VOLUME of the SECRET DOCTRINE BOGUS?? Altered?? Message-ID: <35F5B65F.C9C5B905@usa.net> --------------6CE2521E7B069F74C8491BF9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dallas!! :) > This 3rd and Revised EDITION (not Volume) is shown to contain > about 40,000 alterations from the original 1888 edition (the > original) as published. A number of student are of the opinion > that the "ORIGINAL EDITION OF 1888" contains certain codes, and > some of those are dependent on the phrasing and the > capitalization and the actual words that HPB and the Masters used > in that book. > Is then altered that vol. of the secret doctrine?? in medular basis,or just some minor text?? Little details of altered text could possibly reflect some change in main subjects that only can be noticed by those details. > n addition if one desires to catalog the divergence one need > only consult Margaret Thomas' book THEOSOPHY or NEO-THEOSOPHY > Could you tell us more of that book?? it is online?? What subjects of the TS history involves?? > to > notice that changes in Theosophical presentation that had become > prevalent between 1891 and 1923. And these are still in use and > most members of the T S are unaware of the importance of Mr. > Judge's writings, as they have been neglected. Even HPB's > writings in their original form have been neglected. Apparently > only those who are scholarly delve into and resurrect for their > own study and work those neglected writings - and profit > therefrom. > Seems that only in the USA the TS has been so divided, that one branch does not recognize W.Q. Judge, and the other does'nt recognize Annie Bessant and C.W.Leadbeater. Both directors of T.S. had been accused here and in Theos-World of misleading because some errors that them had done. However, as i see it, Both of them were good leaders of their respective branches. (My humble point from a mexican girl that does not understand not a single thing in all this mess) As i see it, Judge was not a victim, not also was a thyrant. only had different point of focusing theosophy of the one of Ms. Bessant. consider also the different social backgrounds of both, age, sex, etc. Dallas, I believe you are right in the thing Blavatsky's writings have been altered. I entered the website of the TS intl. headquarters http://members.aol.com/tstec/hmpage/tsintro.htm and did notice the differences in the objectives of the TS that Doss noticed and telled us (I believe that was Ramadoss, is it?? :-) ) In the objectives, you can notice that it says 5 objectives, and the FIRST ONE is "to diffuse among men a knowledge of the laws inherent in the universe;" And only the third one is the one that talks of brotherhood. Even that in the aggregate link of "objectives" says the 3 real ones, putting "brotherhood" in the first place, i thing it could be good telling them that if they please could speccify correctly that miswriting. On the other hand, i don't think i have to write even this!! I not even belong to the T.S.!!! Estrella --------------6CE2521E7B069F74C8491BF9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 




Hello Dallas!! :)



This 3rd and Revised EDITION (not Volume) is shown to contain
about 40,000 alterations from the original 1888 edition (the
original) as published.  A number of student are of the opinion
that the "ORIGINAL EDITION OF 1888" contains certain codes, and
some of those are dependent on the phrasing and the
capitalization and the actual words that HPB and the Masters used
in that book.






Is then altered that vol. of the secret doctrine?? in medular basis,or
just some minor text??  Little details of altered text could possibly
reflect some change in main subjects that only can be noticed by those
details.



n addition if one desires to catalog the divergence one need
only consult Margaret Thomas' book THEOSOPHY or NEO-THEOSOPHY



Could you tell us more of that book?? it is online?? What subjects of the
TS history involves??



 to
notice that changes in Theosophical presentation that had become
prevalent between 1891 and 1923.  And these are still in use and
most members of the T S are unaware of the importance of Mr.
Judge's writings, as they have been neglected.  Even HPB's
writings in their original form have been neglected.  Apparently
only those who are scholarly delve into and resurrect for their
own study and work those neglected writings - and profit
therefrom.






Seems that only in the USA the TS has been so divided, that one
branch does not recognize W.Q. Judge, and the other does'nt recognize Annie
Bessant and C.W.Leadbeater. Both directors of T.S. had been accused here
and in Theos-World of misleading because some errors that them had done.
However, as i see it, Both of them were good leaders of their respective
branches.

(My humble point from a mexican girl that does not understand not
a single thing in all this mess)

As i see it, Judge was not a victim, not also was a thyrant. only had
different point of focusing theosophy of the one of Ms. Bessant. consider
also the different social backgrounds of both, age, sex, etc.

Dallas, I believe you are right in the thing Blavatsky's writings have
been altered. I entered the website of the TS intl. headquarters http://members.aol.com/tstec/hmpage/tsintro.htm

and did notice the differences in the objectives of the TS that Doss
noticed and telled us (I believe that was Ramadoss, is it?? :-) )

In the objectives, you can notice that it says 5 objectives, and the
FIRST ONE is

"to diffuse among men a knowledge of the
laws inherent in the universe;"

And only the third one is the one that talks of brotherhood.

Even that in the aggregate link of "objectives" says the 3 real ones,
putting "brotherhood" in the first place, i thing it could be good telling
them that if they please could speccify correctly that miswriting.

On the other hand, i don't think i have to write even this!! I not even
belong to the T.S.!!!

Estrella

 

--------------6CE2521E7B069F74C8491BF9--

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 16:17:21 -0700
From: Estrella 
Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1621
Message-ID: <35F5BB01.614726D2@usa.net>

--------------2E726554F89C75028FAE4875
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> Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:41:18 +0900
> From: "D. Porter" 
> To: theos-l@vnet.net
> Subject: theosophistry
> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980901094118.007fa2d0@ozemail.com.au>
>
> this night has opened my eyes
>

I liked that!! Theosopoetry!!! ;-)

Estrella

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Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:41:18 +0900

From: "D. Porter" <dport@ozemail.com.au>

To: theos-l@vnet.net

Subject: theosophistry

Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980901094118.007fa2d0@ozemail.com.au>

this night has opened my eyes

 

I liked that!! Theosopoetry!!! ;-)

Estrella

--------------2E726554F89C75028FAE4875--

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 17:48:13 -0700
From: Estrella 
Subject: Re: Encounter with entities 
Message-ID: <35F5D04C.DA753527@usa.net>

--------------C10DB742C7162572A3BEB555
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Doss:

There is a book of a certain Felas Du Richard. It is called: The Felas
Inform.   This person seems to belong to an organization called
Universal Magnus Power. Seems than in Glastonbury , England they have
one nucleus of this organization, cause in the end of the book it is
mentioned. this book is edited from a Venezuelan book editor that edits
Metaphysical books, in particular from Conny Mendez, the famous
metaphisical lady that expanded the metaphisical (St Germain school) to
all Latin and south America.

(Sorry for that looong interlude to the explanation, folks, heehe)

In this book that i mention Du Richard says that in the process of
masturbation generates astral parasites, that can grow to become the
famous "succubus" or "incubus" depending if it is a man or a woman. this
entities suck the energy from the person in the process of masturbation,
he says. also he ends the phrase saying that this parasites can be
destroyed wearing sulfured stones in the shoes, for the sulfur (Yuck!!)
odor destroys them, and that pepole MUST NOT repeat or do the
masturbation process because of this phenomenon.
So, someone here knows something in the matter that can help us clarify
more this subject?? What Theosophy has  to say on it??

Estrella

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Doss:

There is a book of a certain Felas Du Richard. It is called: The
Felas Inform.   This person seems to belong to an organization
called Universal Magnus Power. Seems than in Glastonbury , England they
have one nucleus of this organization, cause in the end of the book it
is mentioned. this book is edited from a Venezuelan book editor that edits
Metaphysical books, in particular from Conny Mendez, the famous metaphisical
lady that expanded the metaphisical (St Germain school) to all Latin and
south America.

(Sorry for that looong interlude to the explanation, folks, heehe)

In this book that i mention Du Richard says that in the process of masturbation
generates astral parasites, that can grow to become the famous "succubus"
or "incubus" depending if it is a man or a woman. this entities suck the
energy from the person in the process of masturbation, he says. also he
ends the phrase saying that this parasites can be destroyed wearing sulfured
stones in the shoes, for the sulfur (Yuck!!) odor destroys them, and that
pepole MUST NOT repeat or do the masturbation process because of this phenomenon.

So, someone here knows something in the matter that can help us clarify
more this subject?? What Theosophy has  to say on it??

Estrella

 

 

--------------C10DB742C7162572A3BEB555--
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 11:14:10 -0700
From: Eldon B Tucker 
Subject: September 1998 HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST
Message-ID: <4.0.2.19980908111150.00902ee0@imagiware.com>

The September 1998 issue of THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, edited 
by Dick Slusser, is online and available at:

    ftp://theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9809.pdf

HCT files carry the extension .PDF (Portable Document File)
readable with the Adobe Acrobat reader. It is available free at:

    http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html.

The www homepage is:

    http://theosophy.com/hct.html

The current issue features:

    Among the Adepts
    SECRET DOCTRINE Q & A
    The Book of Hopi Mythology
    Letters Received
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 11:14:17 -0700
From: Eldon B Tucker 
Subject: September 1998 HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST
Message-ID: <4.0.2.19980908111158.0090f240@imagiware.com>

The September 1998 issue of THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, edited 
by Dick Slusser, is online and available at:

    ftp://theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9809.pdf

HCT files carry the extension .PDF (Portable Document File)
readable with the Adobe Acrobat reader. It is available free at:

    http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html.

The www homepage is:

    http://theosophy.com/hct.html

The current issue features:

    Among the Adepts
    SECRET DOCTRINE Q & A
    The Book of Hopi Mythology
    Letters Received
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 06:01:20 -0700
From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" 
Subject: FW: Theos-World 3rd volume of the Secret Doctrine == HOW HAS IT BEEN ALTERED BEFORE PUBLISHING ?
Message-ID: <000601bddb28$c7743b20$960e97cf@netway.nwc.net>

>From:	W. Dallas TenBroeck [mailto:dalval@nwc.net]
>Sent:	Monday, September 07, 1998 9:29 AM
>Subject:	RE: Theos-World 3rd volume of the Secret Doctrine == HOW HAS IT BEEN ALTERED BEFORE PUBLISHING ?

Sept 7th 1998

Dear Daniel:

		Re:  3RD  VOLUME of the SECRET DOCTRINE

I have carefully read your article when you originally published
it and sent it to me.

The one aspect that is unclear and, to me, important is:

How much did Mrs. Besant (whom Mr. Mead says was solely
responsible for its editing) change and edit it from what HPB
wrote ?

Yes, it is based on those unedited and unprinted MSS that HPB had
in her possession.  But if those have been changed and altered as
the "Third and Revised EDITION of 1893" was, how can we depend
absolutely on them ?

This 3rd and Revised EDITION (not Volume) is shown to contain
about 40,000 alterations from the original 1888 edition (the
original) as published.  A number of student are of the opinion
that the "ORIGINAL EDITION OF 1888" contains certain codes, and
some of those are dependent on the phrasing and the
capitalization and the actual words that HPB and the Masters used
in that book.

If that concept is thrown aside, then the "3rd VOLUME can be
considered as possibly authentic in INTENT, but not as to
CONTENT.  In other words it may not be consistent with the
ORIGINAL MSS that HPB had left.

I also notice the following:

Some of those MSS were published posthumously in LUCIFER.  And
they have been accepted as original HPB.

Mr. Judge made no written protest that I have heard of concerning
the changes in the "3rd and Revised Edition of the S D published
in 1893."

The content and statements made in some of the articles published
by Mrs. Besant as part of the "THIRD VOLUME OF THE S D " do not
closely dovetail (in my esteem) with statements made and
orthography used in the ORIGINAL 1888 S D, and in several of her
articles published after that date.  It is therefore difficult
for me to agree to use those as a basis for presenting original
Theosophy and its doctrines.

In other words they show a peculiar lack of cohesiveness and
continuity with those statements and teachings she made in those
writings she actually EDITED HERSELF.  Now it may be argued that
these are minor and perhaps they are also insignificant.  However
they do represent a DIFFERENCE.  So in my eyes I have set them
aside as having been tampered with.

It is also significant to me that after HPB's death  Mrs. Besant
arrogated to herself the right and "duty ?" of editing HPB as she
thought HPB would like it.  This manifests as early as 1893 --2
years after HPB's death.  Mrs. Besant's subsequent writings show
this tendency to divergence and ultimately this has brought an
important change in the presentation of THEOSOPHY.

One need only look at the contents of LUCIFER, the VAHAN, and the
THEOSOPHIST, comparing them with the contents of THE PATH and the
THEOSOPHICAL FORUM during the years 1894 to 1896 (during the
attacks on Mr. W.Q.Judge's character and standing in the T S) to
realize how this divergence was magnified as the FIRST OBJECT of
the T S   ( Brotherhood ) was abrogated.

In addition if one desires to catalog the divergence one need
only consult Margaret Thomas' book THEOSOPHY or NEO-THEOSOPHY to
notice that changes in Theosophical presentation that had become
prevalent between 1891 and 1923.  And these are still in use and
most members of the T S are unaware of the importance of Mr.
Judge's writings, as they have been neglected.  Even HPB's
writings in their original form have been neglected.  Apparently
only those who are scholarly delve into and resurrect for their
own study and work those neglected writings - and profit
therefrom.

If HPB had edited and published that 3rd Volume, then, OK.
However the contents of that 3rd VOLUME, as I say above show an
incohateness that I find troubling.  And I can only speak for
myself and my studies.

Dallas

>From: Graye/Caldwell
>Sent:	Sunday, September 06, 1998 10:00 AM
>Subject:	Theos-World 3rd volume of the Secret Doctrine

Re the 3rd volume of the SD,
I would suggest that we indeed do have the third
volume of the Secret Doctrine.  See my article
entitled:

The myth of the "missing" third volume of the Secret Doctrine

It is on the Internet at:

http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/sdiiimyt.htm

I would hope students would look at this historical
evidence instead of *a priori* dismissing it because
it doesn't fit in with their idea about what should
or should not have happened.

Daniel

-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk --
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From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 12:09:32 EDT
From: Drpsionic@aol.com
Subject: solve your god problems
Message-ID: <59d95abb.35f2b3bc@aol.com>

got this from another list.

Chuck the Heretic

 Are you having God problems?  Has Jehova's jealousy been getting you down?
Have your prayers just not been getting the job done?
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Make your own!!
                 AKASHIK EDIT 3.1   Wish it didn't happen?  Now IT DIDN'T!!

                                          Only from Black Suede Shoe

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 16:10:30 -0700
From: Eldon B Tucker 
Subject: The September THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out
Message-ID: <4.0.2.19980906160903.0090baa0@imagiware.com>

The September issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's
contents are:

"Can Theosophy Become 'Old Fashioned?'" by Mark Jaqua
"Experience and the Inner Teacher" by Eldon Tucker
"Further Reflections on the Quest for Human Origins" 
    by Ina Belderis
"A Visit to the School of Natural Order" by Bee Brown
"When Our Memory Fails Us" by Eldon Tucker
"Art and Theosophy" by Doreen Domb
"Blavatsky Net Update" by Reed Carson
"On Holiness" by Eldon Tucker
"The Triple Chain" by Elipas Levi
"Psychism: Reality and Relativity" by Gerald Schueler
"The Race to the Top" by Eldon Tucker
"The Origin of Man" by Peter Stoddard
"Karma the Law of Causation, of Justice, and the Adjustment of
    Effects," by Annie Besant

THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email 
(about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to 
editor@theosophy.com.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 16:10:57 -0700
From: Eldon B Tucker 
Subject: The September THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out
Message-ID: <4.0.2.19980906161050.00a2df00@imagiware.com>

The September issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's
contents are:

"Can Theosophy Become 'Old Fashioned?'" by Mark Jaqua
"Experience and the Inner Teacher" by Eldon Tucker
"Further Reflections on the Quest for Human Origins" 
    by Ina Belderis
"A Visit to the School of Natural Order" by Bee Brown
"When Our Memory Fails Us" by Eldon Tucker
"Art and Theosophy" by Doreen Domb
"Blavatsky Net Update" by Reed Carson
"On Holiness" by Eldon Tucker
"The Triple Chain" by Elipas Levi
"Psychism: Reality and Relativity" by Gerald Schueler
"The Race to the Top" by Eldon Tucker
"The Origin of Man" by Peter Stoddard
"Karma the Law of Causation, of Justice, and the Adjustment of
    Effects," by Annie Besant

THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email 
(about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to 
editor@theosophy.com.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 16:10:40 -0700
From: Eldon B Tucker 
Subject: The September THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out
Message-ID: <4.0.2.19980906161032.009f6780@imagiware.com>

The September issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's
contents are:

"Can Theosophy Become 'Old Fashioned?'" by Mark Jaqua
"Experience and the Inner Teacher" by Eldon Tucker
"Further Reflections on the Quest for Human Origins" 
    by Ina Belderis
"A Visit to the School of Natural Order" by Bee Brown
"When Our Memory Fails Us" by Eldon Tucker
"Art and Theosophy" by Doreen Domb
"Blavatsky Net Update" by Reed Carson
"On Holiness" by Eldon Tucker
"The Triple Chain" by Elipas Levi
"Psychism: Reality and Relativity" by Gerald Schueler
"The Race to the Top" by Eldon Tucker
"The Origin of Man" by Peter Stoddard
"Karma the Law of Causation, of Justice, and the Adjustment of
    Effects," by Annie Besant

THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email 
(about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to 
editor@theosophy.com.
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 13:54:36 -0700
From: Estrella 
Subject: The carrot (And more)
Message-ID: <35F1A50C.FB3AE3C7@usa.net>

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Hi gang

I did tought of a carrot....but now that i'm thinking, i ALSO tought of
corn.
Estrella

P.S. HI MARK!!
I knew that you were with Thoa on travel. if you see her, tell her that
i'm sorry for not having send her the letter. i was too busy!! believe
me!!
Also Mark, can you post again, now again in the subject, the link on
your artwork to the beautiful picture of the sufi poet?? I LOVED THAT
IMAGE!!
Cheers to all :p

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Hi gang

I did tought of a carrot....but now that i'm thinking, i ALSO tought
of corn.

Estrella

P.S. HI MARK!!

I knew that you were with Thoa on travel. if
you see her, tell her that i'm sorry for not having send her the letter.
i was too busy!! believe me!!

Also Mark, can you post again, now again in the
subject, the link on your artwork to the beautiful picture of the sufi
poet?? I LOVED THAT IMAGE!!

Cheers to all :p

--------------1769E61BC42E397041C85166--

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 14:01:35 -0700
From: Estrella 
Subject: Re: Encounter with entities 
Message-ID: <35F1A6AF.6D219897@usa.net>

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Doss:

Reading your stuff on the invisible that you posted, i remembered having
read about the entities that form with the masturbation. seems that some
of them are what we call in spanish "larvas" or larvae in english....
Could you please detail more on that?? or you Alan?? someone??
And another question (Very important)
Why all of the theosophists (Strangely i believe that Leadbeater was
against it, strange, because of all the presumed allegations against
him) have been AGAINST masturbation?? Why they all say that it is bad??

Estrella

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Doss:

Reading your stuff on the invisible that you posted, i remembered having
read about the entities that form with the masturbation. seems that some
of them are what we call in spanish "larvas" or larvae in english....

Could you please detail more on that?? or you Alan?? someone??

And another question (Very important)

Why all of the theosophists (Strangely i believe that Leadbeater was
against it, strange, because of all the presumed allegations against him)
have been AGAINST masturbation?? Why they all say that it is bad??

Estrella

--------------0A6B5C5A6ECF5752C0F0418B--

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 17:04:39 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss 
Subject: Re: Encounter with entities 
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980905170439.0149cd30@mail.eden.com>

At 05:12 PM 9/5/1998 -0400, Estrella wrote:
>Doss:
>
>Reading your stuff on the invisible that you posted, i remembered having
>read about the entities that form with the masturbation. seems that some
>of them are what we call in spanish "larvas" or larvae in english....
>Could you please detail more on that?? or you Alan?? someone??

This is the first time I hear about the entities you are referring to.
Where did you read it? BTW, I have no personal knowledge or experience with
the invisible world, at least in my waking consciousness.

mkr
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:43:49 +0100
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" 
Subject: Re: A collection of theosophical images
Message-ID: 

Mark Kusek  writes
>Hi all,

Welcome home!

Alan
---------
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age:
http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/
E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 07:48:50 EDT
From: ZZZLEEPER@aol.com
Subject: Re:  THEOS-L digest 1623
Message-ID: 

I thought of a cucumber

Julien

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:34:36 EDT
From: Cybercmh@aol.com
Subject: Re:  THEOS-L digest 1623
Message-ID: <5ff9fd26.35ee9aec@aol.com>

Asparagus, eggplant, cabbage - it just goes to show that theosophists have
warped minds!
:)
CMH

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 20:55:09 -0700
From: Mark Kusek 
Subject: A collection of theosophical images
Message-ID: <35EF6498.6EBC@withoutwalls.com>

Hi all,
Andrew (in Korea) recently asked for help in locating images and artwork
that relate to or help illustrate theosophical concepts and ideas. He
was interested in trying to expand the understanding of theosophy in
Korea, where native language editions of theosophical books are scarce.

I apologize for having lost his direct email address and so post a link
here to a collection of pictures and illustrations I have that might be
helpful to him.

http://www.withoutwalls.com/Artwork/

Regards,
Mark
--------
WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space
http://www.withoutwalls.com
E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 01:55:40 +0100
From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" 
Subject: Re: WEIRD
Message-ID: 

JRC  writes
>>>>You're thinking of a carrot right?
>>>>If not, you're among the 2% of the population whose minds are warped
>>>enough
>>>>to think of something else.

I thought of a cabbage.

Warped of Cornwall.
---------
THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age:
http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/
E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:24:26 EDT
From: Cybercmh@aol.com
Subject: Re:  THEOS-L digest 1622
Message-ID: <450f19ef.35ed9b6a@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/1/98 7:21:40 PM, you wrote:

<>>If not, you're among the 2% of the population whose minds are warped
>>enough
>>>to think of something else. 98% of people will answer with carrot when
>>>given this exercise. Freaky, huh?>>

I thought of an eggplant.  I keep buying them and they rot in my fridge.  So
they are "sick."  When I kept thinking "six" over and over again, it sounded
like, "sick, sick, sick," and then when I saw the word "vegetable," I thought
"sick vegetable."  Voila:  eggplant!
The mind works in mysterious ways...
CMH

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 16:13:06 -0400
From: Bart Lidofsky 
Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1622
Message-ID: <35EDA6D2.B4157DD2@sprynet.com>

Cybercmh@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 9/1/98 7:21:40 PM, you wrote:
> 
> < >>>If not, you're among the 2% of the population whose minds are warped
> >>enough
> >>>to think of something else. 98% of people will answer with carrot when
> >>>given this exercise. Freaky, huh?>>
> 
> I thought of an eggplant.  I keep buying them and they rot in my fridge.  So
> they are "sick."  When I kept thinking "six" over and over again, it sounded
> like, "sick, sick, sick," and then when I saw the word "vegetable," I thought
> "sick vegetable."  Voila:  eggplant!
> The mind works in mysterious ways...

	I thought of asparagus. I have no idea why; I don't even like
asparagus.

	Bart Lidofsky
From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 08:46:20 -0500
From: M K Ramadoss 
Subject: Use of Internet
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980901084620.009a3630@mail.eden.com>

Internet as a source of information is outstanding.

Recently a relative of mine was strongly suspected of a cancerous growth.
When I heard about it, I went on the net and read up details about it and
the treatment for it.

Later when I called the doctor and was talking to him, as usual, he was
using many of the technical terms that they normally use. So it was easy
for me to follow what he was talking about. But for the background
information, I would not have been able to fully understand what he was
trying to communicate.

In this case, I was more informed of the details of the problem than the
patient.

Anyone who still do not understand Internet, know not what they are missing
in their lives. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

mkr

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 15:10:03 -0600
From: "JRC" 
Subject: WEIRD
Message-ID: <003501bdd5ec$e47653c0$1e13f3cf@Webcastle.alpsnet.com>

OK folks ... I've been on the internet since the days when it's only
participants were people working on nuclear weaponry (though I'm not
supposed to say what I was doing on it at the time (-:), and I've certainly
seen my share of strange things,  but *this* has got to be one of the
strangest things that's ever come across my screen ....... have fun
...... -JRC

****************************************
>>>This little Jedi mind trick is kinda freaky, till you think
>>>about it a little while. Then it's even more weird. Just follow the
>>>instructions below:
>>>
>>>DON'T scroll down too fast; do it slowly and follow the instructions
>>below
>>>exactly, do the math in your head as fast as you can. It may help say
>>the
>>>answers aloud quietly!! > >  >>>>> >> >> >
>>>
>>>FOLLOW these instructions one at a time and as QUICKLY as you can!
>>>
>>>What is:
>>>
>>>2+2?
>>>
>>>4+4?
>>>
>>>8+8?
>>>
>>>16+16?
>>>
>>>Quick! Pick a number between 12 and 5.
>>>
>>>Got it?
>>>
>>>Now scroll down...
>>>
>>>The number you picked was 7, right?
>>>
>>>Isn't that weird???
>>>
>>>Free will or synaptic wiring? You be the judge.  Check out the
>>>following
>>>exercise, guaranteed to freak you out.
>>>
>>>There's no trick or surprise. Just follow these instructions,
>>>and answer the questions one at a time and as quickly as you can!
>>Again, as
>>>quickly as you can but don't advance until you've done
>>>each of
>>>them...really. Now, ARROW down (but not too fast, you might miss
>>>something).........
>>>
>>>What is:
>>>
>>>1+5
>>>
>>>2+4
>>>
>>>3+3
>>>
>>>4+2
>>>
>>>5+1
>>>
>>>Now repeat saying the number 6 to yourself as fast as you can for 15
>>>seconds. Then scroll down.
>>>
>>>QUICK!!! THINK OF A VEGETABLE! Then arrow down.
>>>
>>>Keep going.
>>>
>>>You're thinking of a carrot right?
>>>If not, you're among the 2% of the population whose minds are warped
>>enough
>>>to think of something else. 98% of people will answer with carrot when
>>>given this exercise. Freaky, huh?