From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 05:36:48 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: e-mail problem Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980730053648.01715810@mail.eden.com> Here is an excerpt: "Malicious code may affect systems running Microsoft or Netscape e-mail. by Brian McWilliams, PC World News Radio July 27, 1998, 3:29 p.m. PT Researchers in Finland have discovered a serious security flaw in e-mail software from both Microsoft and Netscape. The bug, identified by the Secure Programming Group at Finland's Oulu University, can be exploited by an attacker who sends you an e-mail message with an attachment that has an extra-long filename. The long name can cause Microsoft's Outlook 98 and Outlook Express mail programs, as well as Netscape's Messenger mail program, to crash from a buffer overflow. After that, your computer could be forced to run malicious code that's actually contained right in that long filename. The e-mail vulnerability exists on most, but not all, 32-bit Windows systems. Microsoft released a patch today for its Outlook 98 and Outlook Express e-mail clients. Netscape said it will have a patch ready in about two weeks for its Communicator suites, versions 4.05 and 4.5 beta. Qualcomm's Eudora e-mail client appears not to be affected by the bug. Both Microsoft and Netscape are urging affected users to apply the patches as soon as possible. The bug is especially pernicious because you don't actually have to open the attachment to be affected. Simply downloading the message off your mail server can cause the crash and the malicious code to execute. Russ Cooper, editor of the NT Bugtraq mailing list, says the software vendors should go even further and issue a recall of the affected programs to prevent a widespread virus or Internet worm outbreak. Note: As of 7/28, Microsoft has made the appropriate patch available to Windows 98 users as a "critical" update available by running the Windows Update utility." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:35:45 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Resources on Theosophy Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980730213545.017d2b70@mail.eden.com> Here is a flyer put out by ACT (Association of Concerned Theosophists). mkr ================================================== Theosophy Resources on the Internet Presented as a service to theosophists by the Association of Concerned Theosophists (ACT). The Internet has opened up immense opportunities to access and exchange information on Theosophy. Two key functions of the Internet are the Word Wide Web (WWW) and the e-mail based Maillists. World Wide Web (WWW): At various locations on the Internet, a lot of retrievable information such as theosophical classics like The Secret Doctrine and The Key to Theosophy are available for free. To access them one needs an Internet Connection and a program such as Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer. Some of the WWW addresses are listed below. The list is not exhaustive. More sites can be found by using search engines. Theosophical Society in America (Adyar) http://www.theosophical.org Theosophical Society (Pasadena) http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena United Lodge of Theosophists http://www.ult.org Theosophy International http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ Association of Concerned Theosophist http://users.vnet.net/jem/ACT/index.html Theosophy Maillists http://users.vnet.net/jem/theos-l.html Theosophical University Press http://www.halcyon.com/pasadena/tup-onl.htm Adyar: Home of Theosophical Society http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/Adyar.html High Country Theosophist http://theosophy.com/hct.html Blavatsky Net Foundation http://www.blavatsky.net Maillists: Maillists based on electronic mail (e-mail) cater to specific interests. Maillists distribute e-mail messages to everyone in the list. One has to sign up for a maillist to be included in it, to receive the e-mail messages and to participate in it. Unlike WWW, an Internet Connection is not essential. From most major cities around the country, one can use free e-mail from JUNO Company. All that is needed is a Personal Computer with Windows. For information on how to get a free JUNO connection, please contact John Mead whose telephone number is listed below. Almost all maillists are free and anyone can join them. To join, one has to send a e-mail message to the specific address with an online "subscribe" message as indicated, replacing xxxxxxx with your real name. THEOS-L , ACT-L and THEOS-TALK are very active lists. Some of the maillist addresses for theosophy are listed below. The list is not exhaustive. ACT-L Association of Concerned Theosophists. "subscribe" to ACT-L xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net NL-L List of National Lodge of the TSA "subscribe NL-L" to nl-l-request@theosophia.org (Note: You need to be a member of TSA (Adyar) and National Lodge to join NL-L.) THEOS-BUDS@vnet.net Discussing future of Theosophical Movement. "subscribe theos-buds xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-L@vnet.net General Theosophy discussions. "subscribe theos-L xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-NEWS@vnet.net Theosophical News/Events Announcements. "subcribe theos-news xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-ROOTS@vnet.net History & historical literature of Theosophical Movement. "subscribe theos-roots xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-SPAN@vnet.net For benefit of Spanish speaking Theosophists. "subscribe theos-span xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-TALK@theosophy.com Theosophical discussion "subscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com THEOS-TECH@vnet.net Theosophical Electronic Clearing House List. "subcribe theos-tech xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net TI-L@vnet.net Theosophy International Discussion List. "subscribe ti-L xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net TS-L TSA Theosophy Discussion List. "subscribe ts-L" to ts-L-request@theosophia.org If you have any questions about the Internet and how to get connected, please call John E. Mead at (704) 543-6519 or send an e-mail to jmead@infoave.net. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:25:24 EDT From: HermesTris@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-NEWS digest 165 Message-ID: <9e660e21.35c1b7b5@aol.com> Hallo all of you, thanks for this URL-List, even if it is far from complete. I would draw your attention especially to our Homepage, wich is as far as I know the only "ADYAR" site in Germany. Although that site is marked in a lot of searchin-maschines and crawlers you will have noticed NETSCAPE doesn't find everything. Just be aware, that "theosophy" in a lot of other languages is spelled "theosophie", so if anybody wants to surch all around the world he has to search for both. Our URL = http://members.aol.com/HermesTris May the Light of Wisdom shin upon you. Johannes From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 09:53:33 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-SPAN digest 73 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980731095333.01731100@mail.eden.com> Sure we should add them. I will post this msg to all the maillists I have posted the msg earlier. mkr At 10:28 AM 7/31/1998 -0400, you wrote: >How about these? > >Theosophical Library Online >http://theosophy.org/index.htm > >Theosophy Northwest >http://www.halcyon.com/theosnw/ > >Theosophy Corner >http://www.za.spiritweb.org/Spirit/Theosophy/Overview.html > >Blavatsky Study Center >http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/ > >Theosophical Literature >http://www.whidbey.com/TheosophicalLiterature > >Theosophical Society (Rudolpho) >http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TS.html > >Namaste >Sutratman From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:35:45 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Resources on Theosophy Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980730213545.017d2b70@mail.eden.com> Here is a flyer put out by ACT (Association of Concerned Theosophists). mkr ================================================== Theosophy Resources on the Internet Presented as a service to theosophists by the Association of Concerned Theosophists (ACT). The Internet has opened up immense opportunities to access and exchange information on Theosophy. Two key functions of the Internet are the Word Wide Web (WWW) and the e-mail based Maillists. World Wide Web (WWW): At various locations on the Internet, a lot of retrievable information such as theosophical classics like The Secret Doctrine and The Key to Theosophy are available for free. To access them one needs an Internet Connection and a program such as Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer. Some of the WWW addresses are listed below. The list is not exhaustive. More sites can be found by using search engines. Theosophical Society in America (Adyar) http://www.theosophical.org Theosophical Society (Pasadena) http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena United Lodge of Theosophists http://www.ult.org Theosophy International http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ Association of Concerned Theosophist http://users.vnet.net/jem/ACT/index.html Theosophy Maillists http://users.vnet.net/jem/theos-l.html Theosophical University Press http://www.halcyon.com/pasadena/tup-onl.htm Adyar: Home of Theosophical Society http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/Adyar.html High Country Theosophist http://theosophy.com/hct.html Blavatsky Net Foundation http://www.blavatsky.net Maillists: Maillists based on electronic mail (e-mail) cater to specific interests. Maillists distribute e-mail messages to everyone in the list. One has to sign up for a maillist to be included in it, to receive the e-mail messages and to participate in it. Unlike WWW, an Internet Connection is not essential. From most major cities around the country, one can use free e-mail from JUNO Company. All that is needed is a Personal Computer with Windows. For information on how to get a free JUNO connection, please contact John Mead whose telephone number is listed below. Almost all maillists are free and anyone can join them. To join, one has to send a e-mail message to the specific address with an online "subscribe" message as indicated, replacing xxxxxxx with your real name. THEOS-L , ACT-L and THEOS-TALK are very active lists. Some of the maillist addresses for theosophy are listed below. The list is not exhaustive. ACT-L Association of Concerned Theosophists. "subscribe" to ACT-L xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net NL-L List of National Lodge of the TSA "subscribe NL-L" to nl-l-request@theosophia.org (Note: You need to be a member of TSA (Adyar) and National Lodge to join NL-L.) THEOS-BUDS@vnet.net Discussing future of Theosophical Movement. "subscribe theos-buds xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-L@vnet.net General Theosophy discussions. "subscribe theos-L xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-NEWS@vnet.net Theosophical News/Events Announcements. "subcribe theos-news xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-ROOTS@vnet.net History & historical literature of Theosophical Movement. "subscribe theos-roots xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-SPAN@vnet.net For benefit of Spanish speaking Theosophists. "subscribe theos-span xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net THEOS-TALK@theosophy.com Theosophical discussion "subscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com THEOS-TECH@vnet.net Theosophical Electronic Clearing House List. "subcribe theos-tech xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net TI-L@vnet.net Theosophy International Discussion List. "subscribe ti-L xxxxxxx" to listserv@vnet.net TS-L TSA Theosophy Discussion List. "subscribe ts-L" to ts-L-request@theosophia.org If you have any questions about the Internet and how to get connected, please call John E. Mead at (704) 543-6519 or send an e-mail to jmead@infoave.net. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:04:20 +0100 (BST) From: alpha@dircon.co.uk Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1595 Message-ID: <199807291104.MAA20943@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> >Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:25:02 -0500 >From: M K Ramadoss >To: theos-l@vnet.net >Subject: Annual Meeting >Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980728202502.0099dc50@mail.eden.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > >Feedback msgs on the Annual Meeting of TSA is on ACT-L. Anyone interested >may want to sign up and read them. > How does one sign up and what does it entail? Attempts in the past have not succeeded. Tony From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:14:10 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1595 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980729071410.013c3ea0@mail.eden.com> At 07:11 AM 7/29/1998 -0400, you wrote: > >>Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:25:02 -0500 >>From: M K Ramadoss >>To: theos-l@vnet.net >>Subject: Annual Meeting >>Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980728202502.0099dc50@mail.eden.com> > >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >>Feedback msgs on the Annual Meeting of TSA is on ACT-L. Anyone interested >>may want to sign up and read them. >> >How does one sign up and what does it entail? Attempts in the past have not >succeeded. > >Tony Send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with a one line msg: subscribe ACT-L xxxxxxxxxxxx where xxxxxxxxxxxx is your real name. Nothing need to be put in the subject line. If anyone has any problem, please send a msg to John E Mead at mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 07:45:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1595 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980729074523.01369bb0@mail.eden.com> All the msgs posted on ACT-L have been archived and can be retrieved to catchup until one get subscribed. To get a list of archive send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with one line in the body of the msg: index act-L After getting the list, one needs to send a get msg for the specific archive file. For more details of GET command, send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with the following in the body of the msg. help index Also simply having help will return the list of commands available. mkr PS: I have forwarded to Tony all the recent msgs on Annual Meeting. At 07:11 AM 7/29/1998 -0400, you wrote: > >>Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:25:02 -0500 >>From: M K Ramadoss >>To: theos-l@vnet.net >>Subject: Annual Meeting >>Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980728202502.0099dc50@mail.eden.com> > >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >>Feedback msgs on the Annual Meeting of TSA is on ACT-L. Anyone interested >>may want to sign up and read them. >> >How does one sign up and what does it entail? Attempts in the past have not >succeeded. > >Tony > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:56:04 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THANK YOU Message-ID: <6f93fad3.35bf6235@aol.com> In a message dated 98-07-29 03:44:55 EDT, you write: >In all to date, we have receive approximately 1,000 UK pounds (some >of which is in US currency, which means a precise figure is not possible >unless I exchange it) and there are one or two contributions still to >come. > >Although this is a long way short of what is needed, The machine is still running. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:14:21 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: to all my friends Message-ID: <6af949c2.35bfacce@aol.com> @-)--)(-----Happy Online----)(---)-@ Friendship Week!! FROM ME TO YOU!!! ___ ____ ___ ____( \ " " / )____ (____ \____ / (0 0) \ ____/ ____) (____ '-------( ) )-------' ____) (____ ______________\ .____. /_____________ ___) (_____/ '-.____.-' \_____) *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug*Hug*Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug*Hug*Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* *Hug* Just send this to your online friends sometime this week!!! We have been friends together in sunshine and in shade. love love lo ve love love lo ve love love love love love love love love love love love l ove love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love l ove love love love love lov e love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love lov e love love love love love love love love love lov e love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love love l ove love love love love love love love love love love love love love lov e love love love love love lov e love love love love love love love love love lo ve love love love lo ve love love love love love love love love love lo ve From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:25:02 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980728202502.0099dc50@mail.eden.com> Feedback msgs on the Annual Meeting of TSA is on ACT-L. Anyone interested may want to sign up and read them. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:50:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: THANK YOU Message-ID: Dear Friends, Following my comparitively recent "Plea for Help" I must express my deep gratitude to all those of you who responded. Not everyone was in a position to send financial help, but the same thanks goes to those who responded but were only able to send good wishes, kind thoughts and expressions, and other esoteric equivalents! In all to date, we have receive approximately 1,000 UK pounds (some of which is in US currency, which means a precise figure is not possible unless I exchange it) and there are one or two contributions still to come. Although this is a long way short of what is needed, the spirit of theosophy was well served by the generosity of spirit shown by those who did *not* see my plight as an exercise in intellectual discussion,. What has been achieved however is the ability to out aside nearly enough funds for a move to another location when the need arises, unless a means of solving the larger financial problem appears! As we are both disabled, we would have to pay for a packing service, which is why the amount needed will be higher than otherwise might be expected. You have been magificent - so thank you once again. As the saying goes, "A friend in need in a friend indeed," and I have found a number of new friends, which in its own way is far more precious than any other gift. My peace and blessing to you all. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:26:36 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An interesting post 1 of 2 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980725222636.00abe940@mail.eden.com> Here is a 2 part post by Bernie on K list: Part 1: =================== This speech was made in 1928, in the period between Krishnamurti's enlightenment and his voluntary dissolution of the Order of the Star. Sub-titles are mine, to make reading the text at the screen easier. ================================================== One with the goal If you would see life as a clear picture, you must, by discriminating and selecting from your many experiences, gather the knowledge which will help you the attainment of your goal. Life cannot be separated from thought, feeling and action, and when you understand life as a whole, using all experience as a ladder on which to climb, you attain. My purpose is to make clear to you your own desires, to strengthen your own unique growth towards perfection. But if you merely obey me or use me as an authority, as a stepping-stone towards your goal, you will fail, because it will not be your own desire that urges you. Whereas, if you strengthen the understanding of your own desire and use all experience to that end, no one can destroy or take away that which you have gained. As from out of a fire there comes forth a spark which can in its turn light a great flame, springing heavenwards, so in every man there is born the spark of desire, and I would strengthen that desire in you that you may be able for yourself to light the fire which is necessary for the fulfillment of life. To follow another, whosoever he may be, is to me the very negation of what I hold to be true. Worship is contrary to all my ideas - especially worship of individuals - and if you regard me as an authority when this form of mine passes away, you will again be bound to the same wheel of limitation. I do not want followers, I do not want disciples, I do not want praise or worship of any kind. I need nothing from anyone. The time when one left the world and went away to a secluded spot, to a monastery, is past. The time for open life and clear understanding has come and I would speak of that understanding which I have found. I would show you how I have found my Beloved, how the Beloved and I are one so that there can be no separation either now or at any time. Walls of prejudice I have long been in revolt from all things, from the authority of others, from the instruction of others, from the knowledge of others; I would not accept anything as Truth until I found the Truth myself. I never opposed the ideas of others but I would not accept their autority, their theory of life. Until I was in that state of revolt, until I became dissatisfied with everything, with every creed, with every dogma and belief, I was not able to find the Truth. Until I was able to destroy these things by constant struggle to understand what lies behind them, I was not able to attain the Truth I sought. Naturally I did not think of all these things while I was young - they grew in me unconsciously. But now I can place all the events of my life in their proper order and see what manner I have developed to attain my goal, and have become my goal. For long I have searched for that goal, and during my search I have watched people trapped in their desires, as a fly is caught in the web of a spider. Ever since I was able to think I have watched people absorbed in their own thoughts, suffocated by the futility of life. Wherever I went I saw people who believed that their happiness consisted in the multitude of possessions. I saw people who had all the comforts of this world, and yet their lives were in confusion, because they were enslaved by these things. I saw people who loved greatly and yet were bound by their love, for they had not found the way to give love and yet be free. I saw people who were wise in knowledge; and yet they were bound by their very learning. I saw people who were steeped in religion and yet they were bound by their traditions and by their fear of the unknown. I saw the wise withdraw from the world into their own seclusion, and the ignorant caught up in their own labours. Watching people thus, I have seen that they build for themselves walls of prejudice, walls of belief, walls of credulous thought, walls of great fear against which they fight, trying to escape from the very walls they themselves have built. Watching all people, I have seen how useless is their struggle if they are not free from the very gods they worship, from the interpreters who would guide them. Each guide, each interpreter of the Truth translates that Truth according to his own limited vision. If you depend on the interpreter for our understanding, you will only learn the Truth according to his limitations. But if you establish the goals for yourself, if you strengthen your own desire for Truth and test the keenness of that desire by observation, by welcoming sorrow and experience, then you need have no mediators, then there need exist nothing between you and your goal, between you and the Truth. I would that I could make you certain of the Truth, for Truth is greater than every book of every religion, greater than every belief that you hold dear. But because you do not understand, Truth appears to you as something fearsome, an enemy to be conquered, and because of this fear you seek a mediator. But if you have a pure heart and a mind that is full with understanding, you do not need gurus, mediators who must inevitably condition, limit the Truth. Ever since I was young I have observed these things, and I have never allowed myself to be caught up in any of these confusions. Because I have established my goal, because I have always regarded myself as a boat on the stream, having no connection with the land where there is confusion, I have attained, and now I would share my experience with others. I would help those who are confused to make their minds and hearts simple in their desire for attainment. The latent volcano Ever since I was a boy I have been, as most young people are, or should be, in revolt. Nothing satisfied me. I listened, I observed, I wanted something beyond mere phrases, the maya of words. I wanted to discover and to establish for myself my goal. I did not want to rely on anyone. I do not remember the time when I was being moulded in my boyhood, but I can look back and see how nothing satisfied me. When I went to Europe for the first time I lived among people who were wealthy and well educated, who held positions of social authority; but whatever their dignities or distinctions, they could not satisfy me. I was in revolt also against theosophists with all their jargon, their theories, their meetings, and their explanations of life. When I went to a meeting, the lecturers repeated the same ideas which did not satisfy me or make me happy. I went to fewer and fewer meetings, I saw less and less of the people who merely repeated the ideas of Theosophy. I questioned everything because I wanted to find out for myself. I walked about the streets, watching the faces of people who perhaps watched me with even greater interest. I went to theatres; I saw how people amused themselves, trying to forget their unhappiness, thinking that they were solving their problems by drugging their hearts and minds with superficial excitement. I saw people with political, social or religious power - and yet they did not have that one essential thing in their lives, which is happiness. I attended labour meetings, communist meetings, and listened to what their leaders had to say. They were generally protesting against something. I was interested, but they did not give me satisfaction. By observation of one type and another I gathered experience vicariously. Within everyone there was a latent volcano of unhappiness and discontentment. I passed from one pleasure to another, from one amusement to another, in search of happiness and found it not. I watched the amusements of the young people, their dances, their dresses, their extravagances, and I saw that they were not happy with the happiness which I was seeking. I watched people who had very little in life, who wanted to tear down those things which others had built up. They thought that they were solving life by destroying and building differently and yet they were unhappy. I saw people who desired to serve going into those quarters where the poor and the degraded live. They desired to help but were themselves helpless. How can you cure another of disease if you are yourself a victim of that disease? I saw people satisfied with the stagnation which is unproductive, uncreative - the bourgeois type which never struggles to be above the surface or falls below it and so feels its weight. I read books on philosophy, on religion, biographies of great people and yet they could not give me what I wanted. I wanted to be so certain, so positive, in my attitude towards life that nothing could disturb me. Then I came to India and I saw that the people there were deluding themselves equally, carrying on the same old traditions treating women cruelly. At the same time they called themselves very religious and painted their faces with ashes. In India they may have the most sacred books in the world, they may have the greatest philosophies, they may have constructed wonderful temples in the past, but none of these was able to give me what I wanted. Neither in Europe nor in India could I find happiness. Still I wandered always in search of this happiness which I knew must exist. This was not a merely intellectual or emotional conviction. It was like the hidden perfection which cannot be described, but of the existence of which you are certain. You cannot ask a bud how it opens, in what manner it gives forth its scent, at what time of the morning it unfolds itself to the sun. But if you watch carefully, if you observe keenly, you will discover for yourself the hidden beauty of perfection. ---------------------end of part 1 of 2------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:27:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An Interesting Post - Part 2 of 2 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980725222744.014989e0@mail.eden.com> Part 2 of 2 Meditation of the heart is understanding Still lacking the fixed purpose from which comes the delight of living, I went to California. Circumstances forced me there because my brother was ill. There among the hills we lived in a small house in complete retirement, doing everything for ourselves. If you would discover Truth you must for a time withdraw from the world. In that retired spot my brother and I talked much together. We meditated, trying to understand, for meditation of the heart is understanding. There I was naturally driven within myself and I learned that as long as I had no definite goal or purpose in life, I was like the rest of mankind, tossed about as a ship on a stormy sea. With that in my mind, after rejecting all lesser things, I established for myself my goal. I wanted to enter into eternal happiness, I wanted to become the very goal. I wanted to drink from the source of life. I wanted to unite the beginning and the end. I fixed that goal as my Beloved and that Beloved is Life, the Life of all things. I wanted to destroy the separation that exists between man and his goal. I said to myself that as long as there is this void of separation between myself and my goal there is bound to be misery, disturbance and doubt. There will be autority which I must obey, to which I must yield. As long as there is separation between you and me there is unhappiness for us both. So I set about destroying all the barriers that I had previously erected. I began to reject, to renounce, to set aside what I had gathered, and little by little I approached my goal. When my brother died, the experience it brought me was great - not the sorrow - sorrow is momentary and passes away, but the joy of experience remains. If you understand life rightly then death becomes an experience out of which you can build your house of perfection, your house of delight. When my brother died, that gap of separation still existed in me; I saw him once or twice after death but that did not satisfy me. How can you be satisfied alone? You may invent phrases, you may have great knowledge of books, but as long as there is within you separation and loneliness, there is sorrow. Because I desired to establish life within myself, because I desired to become united with the goal, I struggled. Life is a process of struggle, of continous gathering of the dust of experience. If you are lost on a dark night and you see a distant light, you make your way towards that light with bleeding feet, through bogs, through pitfalls, through difficulties, because you know that the light indicates a human dwelling. So have I walked and struggled towards that light which is my goal, which is the goal of all humanity, because it is humanity itself. All the pitfalls, all the things which entangle, all the things which hurt, are transient and pass away. I suffered but I set about to free myself from everything that bound me, till in the end, I became united with the Beloved, I entered into the sea of liberation, and established liberation within me. Fall in love with yourself The simple union wish the Beloved, the direct way of attainment, which is the eternal way, gives ecstasy to life. If you search for Truth in the realms of maya, in the realm of the intellect or of mere emotionalism, or in the physical sense-world alone, you will never find it. Yet when you have found it you realize that it is contained in them all. You cannot separate life from any expression of life and yet you must be able to distinguish between life and its expressions. Because at first I tried to separate life from the goal, because to me life was one thing and knowledge another, everything became confused and I turned for support to tradition, to comfort, to self-contentment and satisfaction. When you perceive the light of your goal, you are guided by it as a ship is guided by a lighthouse on a dark shore. When you have seen that vision of perfection, that hidden beauty which cannot be explained in words, which is beyond intellectual theories and mere emotional excitement, it will act as your eternal guide, it will shed its light upon your path and whatever your experience or lack of experience may be, you will attain. Attainment is not for the few but for all, at whatever stage of evolution they may be. You can perceive the Beloved when you have learnt to translate the ordinary sorrows and pleasures of life into terms of eternal Truth. If you can interpret all experience in the light of your goal, then you will become united with that goal. Because I am united eternally, inseparably, with my Beloved - who is the Beloved of all, who is yourself - I would show you the way, because you are in pain, in sorrow, in doubt. But I can only be a signpost for you. You must have the strength of your own desire to attain. You must experience the pain and the sorrow in your own self. You must strive for yourself. Your desire must come from your very soul. It must be the result of your own experience, for by that alone will you attain. By telling you of my attainment I do not wish to create authority because if I create authority in your mind I shall destroy your own perception of the Truth. I want to make you breathe the fresh air of the mountains, but if you seek my authority you will remain in your dark valley of limitation. It is much easier for you to follow and worship blindly than to understand and so become truly free. Until I was able to identify myself with the goal, which is the Beloved of all, which is the Source and the End of all, I did not want to say that I had found and, in finding, had become the Beloved. Till I was able to unite with the eternal I could not pass on the Truth to others; till I was certain of having found the lasting goal I did not want to say that I was the Teacher. Now that I have found, now that I have established the Beloved within myself, now that the Beloved is myself, I would give you of the Truth - not that it should be received with authority, but with understanding. It does not matter whether you accept or reject it. When a flower opens and gives its scent, it does not heed if the passer-by does not delight in its fragrance. I have painted my picture on the canvas and I want you to examine it critically, not blindly. I want you to create because of that picture a new picture for yourself. I want you to fall in love with the picture, not with the painter, to fall in love with the Truth and not with him who brings the Truth. Fall in love with yourself and then you will fall in love with everyone. --- I want to be your companion with the freshness of the breeze --- In order to attain liberation it is not necessary to join any organization, any religion, because they are binding, they are limiting, they hold you to a particular form of worship and belief. If you long for freedom you will fight, as I have fought, against authority of any kind, for authority is the antithesis of spirituality. If I were to use authority today and you accepted my authority, it would not make you free, you would be merely following the freedom of another. In following the freedom of another, you are binding yourself more strongly to the wheel of limitation. Do not allow your mind or your hart to be bound by anything or by anyone. If you do, you will establish another religion, another temple. While destroying one set of beliefs you will establish another set of beliefs. I am fighting against all traditions that bind, all worship that narrows, all following that corrupts the heart. If you would find that freedom to which I would point the way, you will begin, as I began, by being discontented, by being in revolt, in inner dissent with everything about you. You frequently use the phrase "We will obey our leaders'. Who are your leaders? I never want to be a leader. I never want to have authority. I want you to become your own leaders. Life is simple and magnificent, lovely and divine, but you want all the beauty and the freshness of the dawn and of the still night to be caught and held in a narrow circle so that you can worship it. Go down to the sea-beach of an evening when the fresh breezes are blowing and all the blades of grass are in motion and the particles of sand are flying about and the trees are waving their branches, and the waves of the sea are breaking over each other. You want to gather and bind all that beauty into a narrow temple. You need have no beliefs in order to live nobly. An yet your say, "I must worship gods, I must perform rites, I must go to shrines, I must follow this and do that". It is an eternal must. That way of living is not living at all. Whatever you do, do not create another temple around me: I shall not be held within it. I want to be your companion with the freshness of the breeze. I want to free you from your own limitations, to encourage within you individual creation, individual perfection, individual uniqueness. The self can only be purified and truly transcended when it has developed its own individual uniqueness to perfection; not when it is held in limitations, bound by traditions, by forms, and by all the unnecessary paraphernalia which you think essential to your well-being. I remember a story written by a Norwegian - the hero of that story in search for freedom and happiness joins one religion after another and worships one God after another, performs one ceremony after another, and still he cannot find what he seeks. At length he becomes a Buddhist and drops his physical body and enters Nirvana. He enters the Nirvana of the books and there he sees all the gods of all the religions seated and conversing with each other. They offer him a vacant seat. This hero appears as a flame, but this flame does not want to be caught, and while all the gods try to catch hold of him he disappears. The gods cannot follow him because even gods themselves are bound. Do not be bound by me or by anyone. Happiness is within yourself. I set out to find for myself the purpose of life and I found it without the authority of another. I have entered that sea of liberation and happiness in which there is no limitation or negation because it is the fulfilment of life. Because after my long journey towards attainment and perfection I have attained that perfection and established it in my heart, and because my mind is tranquil and eternally liberated at the flame, I would give of that understanding to all. ================================================== Bernie - +++ First Aid: email 'intro listening-l' to +++ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 01:17:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Address wanted Message-ID: Can someone send me the e-mail addres of Pam Giese, as it has accidentally been deleted from my address book? Many thanks Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:20:36 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: for thems coming to convention Message-ID: <7b915b86.35b56895@aol.com> Ok folks, The convention is fast upon us so here are a few things to remember for those who have not had the pa-er-pleasure of suffering-er-going to convention and summer school at Olcott. 1. Drink lots of coffee before the opening ceremonies. They can put even the most hyperactive child to sleep in a matter of minutes. 2. At the Annual Meeting, it is not considered polite to wear body armor that shows. Keep it hidden under your shirt. 3. If you get a little envelope with a proxy in it, try to stay dignified and avoid running around the room waving it. 4. During the Annual Meeting, it is considered highly improper to boo or throw things, though a loud Harrumph is permitted when the TPH person babbles about the pretty covers of the books without mention anything between them. 5. If at all possible, avoid eating meals at Olcott. The food is inedible, indigestible and causes constipation, as well as being shamefully overpriced for what you get. There are lots of good eateries around and Gerda and I will be more than happy to point them out to you. 6. If you are travelling to and from Midway Airport, do not, under any circumstances, use public transportation. The natives are not friendly and the rats are not vegetarians. 7. If you have to go out around Wheaton, carry a Bible under your arm. This will keep the natives from accosting you. 8. If you do get accosted by a native, whack him or her upside the head with an unabridged copy of the Secret Doctrine. That will daze him long enough for your getaway. 9. It is considered very impolite to shout "Flapdoodle!!!" everytime someone enters the Labyrinth, however offering a ball of yarn at the entrance will be appreciated, along with cans of Minotaur repellent. Have fun Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:09:16 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: VACATION ! Message-ID: <35B6009B.B600E9A0@gate.net> Hiya one and all, I'll be leaving the cool climbs of South Florida for the misery of northern latitudes for two weeks, so to one and all, if I do not see you at the convention, enjoy yourselves no matter what you do. As always, My Peace Profound, Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 00:32:32 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Membership in the New York Lodge Message-ID: <35B419E0.CB3DB196@sprynet.com> There has been some disucssion on other lists about the membership in the New York Lodge of the TSA. It has gone through a number of changes in the past few years, and there has been some misinformation spread around. In particular, there was a rumor that a large number of members had quit at once. For many years, the NYTS had a policy based on an assumption that the Theosophical Society was the premier esoteric society in the world, and that the world would beat a path to its door. We had about 90 members when I started attending meetings around 1990. We started increasing the public program and advertising, and membership grew to about 160. Unfortunately, many of those members were paying only National or local dues, but not both. When we coordinated with National, our on paper membership shrunk to about 100 (creating the false rumors). However, our growth has continued, and now we have about 140 real members. Part of it has been increased advertising and an improved public program, as well as an expanded members program (some programs, like our First Friday at the Movies, were inspired by the success of the Miami Lodge), and a members' newsletter which acted as an outreach to those members who could not come to our meetings. We have recently taken a poll of all our members, and based on that we plan to further upgrade our members' programs, including encouragement of study groups among our members (we have had three successful ones in the past year, on The Divine Path, Tarot, and Concentration). We have decided to seriously advertise the Quest Bookshop, the major bridge between the NYTS and the public. In mid-September we will be having an open house; I'll post more details as they become available. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:40:08 +0900 From: Darren Subject: Amnesty is Watching Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980721114008.0097f178@ozemail.com.au> Amnesty is watching ---- Related: Individual supreme? Malaysia's stance Charter still relevant Asiaweek Oct 31, 1997 AMNESTY International is the best-known of the many organisations monitoring human rights abuses worldwide. It was Amnesty that coined the now widely used term "prisoner of conscience," referring to an individual jailed for his or her beliefs. The London-based non-governmental organization has grown beyond its activist roots to become a largely credible source of information on human rights. Not everyone agrees with what Amnesty asserts. A lot of people couldn't care less. And even Amnesty would not claim to be right 100 percent of the time. But few doubt the good intentions and impartiality of a group ready to criticise any nation. Its detailed and uncompromising reports are a small but necessary attempt at keeping those in authority honest. Mostly in vain, though, if the 1997 report is anything to go by. In country after country, the document relentlessly -- and depressingly -- exposes unfair trials, torture, executions, the use of flogging and amputation as judicial punishments, "disappearances," extrajudicial killings, ill-treatment and deaths in police custody, mass killings and ethnic cleansing. Unsurprisingly, central and north Africa, central and south America and West Asia are among the worst perpetrators. Central and eastern Europe, especially the former Yugoslavia, also figure prominently. And many Western democracies come under fire too. In Germany, it's for ill-treatment of foreigners by police. In the UK, deaths in custody. In the U.S., the introduction of chain gangs for women, as well as 45 executions and the handing down of some 3000 death sentences. Asia does not get off free, of course. China, India, Indonesia, Myanmar, Pakistan, the Philippines, South Korea and Vietnam are cited for holding political prisoners or prisoners of conscience. China is also taken to task for carrying out executions -- at least 3500 in the past year -- as is Singapore (38). Thailand is rapped for the extrajudicial killings of suspected drug traffickers and the forced repatriation of Mon refugees. Extrajudicial killings before and after Cambodian strongman Hun Sen's seizure of sole power merit a mention. Both government and separatists in Sri Lanka are accused of abuses. Even normally placid Malaysia is not left out. An NGO leader faces prison for spotlighting brutality against migrant workers, while an oppositionist is tried for sedition. Looks like Amnesty will stay busy for years to come. -- By Stuart Whitmore Published in the Asiaweek Oct 31, 1997. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:25:22 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theosophical sites Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980715182522.01529930@mail.eden.com> Hello, K. Zaitzev: Wonderful collection. Thanks for the information. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:29:39 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: help with a problem ? Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Hello, Could you relate any sources or professionals in Italy( or in southern Europe) who can remove entities (clinging ghost) ? I myself am living in Korea(south) and will be in Italy from July 20 to early August. Though I'm not a member of A.R.E, I've read some books about Casey teachings have studied similar pathes. I speak English but no other European languages. Your prompt reply will be very much appreciated. God bless ! yujoung bai [ A MIME text / x-vcard part was included here. ] [ original description, "Card for Yujoung Bai" ] -- Dr. A.M.Bain From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:28:53 +0400 From: "K. Zaitzev" Subject: Theosophical sites Message-ID: <199807152128.BAA13070@idg.chph.ras.ru> Hello MKR! Below is a listing of some sites but not all of them are theosophical. I would also add to it my site www.chat.ru/~ziatz & my firiend's Uri's www.chat.eu/ sorry, i cant edit it this ...g unix, www.chat.ru/~ulm Note also the reference to roadmap at www.blavatsky .net - it's the best collection of theosophical sites.

Other pages which may be of your interest


www.nellie2.demon.co.uk Theosophy International: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age

www.euronet.nl/users/euser Theosophy International: Page held by Martin Euser

www.theosophy.org Theosophical Society in America

www.garlic.com/~rdon Theosophical page held by Rodolfo Don

user.aol.com/tstec/hmpage Theosophical Society (Pasadena)

www.blavatsky.net Blavatsky Net - big collection of texts

www.brad.ac.uk/%7Eatma/theosoc.html Bradford Theosophical Society

actrix.gen.nz/users/paul/theos.html Theosophy-WWW maintained by Paul Gillingwater

www.spiritweb.org Sprirtual Library (great enough)

www.irdg.com/pc93 Rosencruician order

www.jack.kiev.ua Jack in the Box library (Russian)

rh.khprivat.wildwind.com/lib Mirrorsite of Jack in the Box

www-ece.rice.edu/~vijaypai The International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON)

www.portal.com/~tyagi Magi's guide to Internet homepage

www1.usa1.com/~caa/newage.html New Age vs New Thought Movement

www.well.com A site with a good portion New Age

www.ciolek.com/WWWVL-Buddhism.html Site where all Buddhistic texts are being collected

www.ucd.ie/~sspence/classics.html Links to a huge number of sites regarding classical stuff

www.chat.ru/~ulm Uri BBS (Russian)

www.chat.ru/~denisboy Sukhavati (Russian)

www.whidbey.com/TheosophicalLiterature Some good Spanish material as well as material in English

www.irk.ru/ramina/religion/buddhism Buddhism (Russian)

www.ru.com/kcl-irk Buddhism (Russian)

www.express.irk.ru:8101/pub/rel Buddhism & other (Russian)

www.diamondway-buddhism.org Buddhism Karma Kagyu (Engl. & Rus.)

www.uppertriad.org The Upper Triad

sangha.net Maitreya Sangha

roadmap.htm Numerous references by Blavatsky net

Last update: 11/VII-1998

Back

From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:37:05 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Brethern of the Board Battling Brotherhood Message-ID: <35AAB641.5BEE4ABB@gate.net> Greetings, Take away the veneer of officialdom from the June 22 letter and what is left to discern. IMO, frightened people trying to avoid the fact that they are slowly twisting in the wind, by a noose of their own making. It is now seen as true, desperate people do desperate things. That these fellow TSA members categorize open statements of their fellow members as " negative mailings " reinforces any sane persons belief that something is out of balance at Wheaton. These unfortunates are just afield of seeing that there is a need for change, they just do not get it. My first reaction was laughter, my second one was sadness at their actually signing such a letter. Of course, the fact that I paid for a portion of it did not seem appropriate, but... As always, my peace profound, Ken Malkin P.S. Has anyone posted their comments to this letter on Theos-talk? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:58:44 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye Subject: FOHAT editorials: More comments Message-ID: <35A9B024.660C@azstarnet.com> Bruce MacDonald wrote: > I would like to thank Kym Smith for driving home the point of my editorial > more forcefully than I could ever have done. I have no problems with the > views that Kym Smith professes but I have great difficulty with the acts > that Kym would justify in the name of those beliefs. The emotional > arguments put forward in the above e-mail illustrate perfectly the concerns > that I expressed in the editorial and again to Daniel Caldwell. Perhaps the > Canadian government should be nervous? I am sorry, but I feel that this > emotional blindness has to stop before people are so tied up in laws, > regulations, and government intrusions that Western democracies become > little more than hypocritical examples of totalitarian states. If the > writer below is sympathetic with the Canadian government and its laws and > feels justification in beating "smiling Tibetan monks" into historical > submission, what can we expect next in the misguided name of compassion. > Shall we banish the flat-earth "nut-rolls" to the north pole? Shall we beat > soundly all those that deny Darwinian evolution? Perhaps electric shock > therapy would smarten those UFO nuts up nicely, after all they should not be > allowed to go around scaring nice citizens with their alien-abduction > nonsense. If we could only shut these crazies up, wouldn't it be a nice world? > We could have the uniformity of opinion that becomes guaranteed through the > Thought-Police in "1984." The citizens are close to being trained to spy on > one another, we now only need the Thought-Police to complete our paradise. > > When emotions get involved in a debate, the debate invariably degenerates at > some point into a series of personal attacks. I feel that we now have > reached that point. It is regrettable that some people are so bound up in > ensuring that there is a uniform belief with respect to the holocaust that > they can look at an argument that uses the holocaust as an example (despite > never giving a personal opinion on the issue and assumed by omission as > having stated one), miss the argument entirely and get caught up in the > example. When people become emotionally tied up into a subject they REACT. > Theosophy is about living in the present, spirituality is about living in > the present; materialism is about repeating the same act over and over again > given a similar stimulus. This is what animals do, stimulus-response. The > memory becomes a template for future behavior. This is why you can train > animals, they are so predictable. I would hate to think that there was > anyone out there training humans. Daniel Caldwell replies: Bruce, I would like to make several comments on your last two postings. I will repeat: I agree 100% with your Summer 1998 FOHAT editorial that "truth needs no laws to protect it." And I certainly also agree that we do not need governmental/societal "Thought Police." But my reason for writing to you and the editorial staff of FOHAT was to inquire about what other *less explicit* points you were possibly attempting to make in your Summer 1998 editorial. And what concerned me was your positive assessment and portrayal of David Irving's work *without any indication that the substance of his contentions and research has been critiqued by many writers and historians.* Concerning your two editorials in the Spring and Summer 1998 issues of FOHAT: In these editorials you make various comments on two historians: K. Paul Johnson and David Irving. Both have written books in which they attempt to give a "better" and "truer" picture and understanding of certain historical figures and events surrounding these figures: (1) Johnson on Blavatsky and Masters, etc.; and (2) Irving on what Hitler knew about the Jewish Holocaust, etc. As I have stated previously, you come down quite hard on Johnson's research and conclusions. In fact, you give a quite negative assessement and portrayal of Johnson's scholarship. And you even do some "psychoanalysis" on Johnson's motivations, etc. Yet your portrayal of Irving is quite different. Your assessment is positive. I won't quote the various phrases you use to describe Irving, but they are all quite praiseworthy. ***Why such different portrayals of these two historians???*** Again in your editorial involving Johnson you were quite willing to mention the critiques that David Pratt and I had written showing some of the shortcomings in Johnson's research. But in your editorial on David Irving and Wilhelm Staeglich, you mentioned none of the critiques and counterarguments against their research. And this editorial of yours gave the impression that few if any counterarguments, etc. had even been made to their research conclusions. You may respond that your two editorials were on different themes, hence the different treatments. Nevertheless, I believe: (1) you were quite harsh on Johnson and his research. You even indulged in pseudo-psychoanalysis of Johnson's psyche, motivations, etc. but (2) you praised Irving and his research but did not inform your readers about the substantive critiques of Irving's work and opinions on Hitler and the Holocaust. *This is what bothered me and still bothers me.* Bruce, would you be willing to admit that the negative assessment you gave to Johnson's work could also equally apply to Irving's work concerning Hitler and the Holocaust? I think it would be quite easy to take the general criticisms I made in my K.PAUL JOHNSON'S HOUSE OF CARDS? and show that such criticisms apply equally (if not more) to Irving's work. One more issue and related question. Again, in your editorial and in your emails to me, you did NOT state the title of Irving's book. What book are you referring to when you write: "When, at the height of his career he decided to do research on the topic of German concentration camps, he was quite surprised at what he found. He discovered that PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AT THE CAMPS and the archival evidence that he examined ran contrary to popular conceptions on the holocaust. . . . David Irving's research and evidence for his thesis are readily accessible through his book." Caps added. Which book????? Year of publication and edition?? Once I know the title YOU are referring to, then I will have several other comments. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:52:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: One more maillist Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980713105244.00696678@mail.eden.com> >Date: 1998/07/09 >Subject: Announcement - Mailing List StudyCircle >From: "r" >Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian There is this mailing list, which serves to be a discussion centre. 1) English 2) moderated - Moderator at ruben@i.am 3) see http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/studycircle to join. Sample of discussion includes Self-Realized, mono/poly/a/theism, metaphysics, etc. see Archives at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/8559/archives.html Description: For enthusiasts of religious theology, theosophy, philosophy, spirituality and comparative religion. Paranormal and other out-of-the-earth matters related to spirituality, saints, sages, holy scriptures, Gita also interests me. The Sai Babas's teaching also has influence over me. Astrology also. Also for prayers, meditation, yoga and anything else The focus is on COMPARATIVE RELIGION and universal non-sectarian HINDUISM. Discussion also on other religions. Anybody interested in any said above are most welcomed to join. In fact, I prefer people interested and knowledgable in the above and anything relevant according to their beliefs/views to express their views and have fruitful discussions which would be enlightening and intellectual. Could also discuss Science and its relationship to God, as well as atheism and anything opposite but logical against God. religion - spiritual - hindu - Baba - etc. -- Warmest regards, Ruben ruben@army.net rubenz_vm@yahoo.com http://i.am/ruben/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:59:19 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: the board has a long nose Message-ID: <9d00549f.35aa5909@aol.com> Greetings all, I wonder how many people on this list got the letter from the TSA Board dated 6/22. We got a copy today, postmarked 7/10, and this is the day the proxies are due, so there is an obvious suspicion that the mailing was selective and not all members of the TSA received a copy. I'll admit I've tried really hard to see both sides in this mess as having some honesty and maybe even just misunderstanding each other, but this piece of claptrap from the Board of Directors makes that position very difficult to hold. On the other hand, it was very nice of them to send us witness samples of all the Board members so we can set up our machines and find out what's really going on in their minds, to which Gerda adds, assuming they have minds. Chuck Cosimano From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:21:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: the board has a long nose Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980713152144.00b73fa4@mail.eden.com> I got mine today and the mailing was done on July 10, 98. The mailing was by I Class metered mail presorted. I am in Texas. ..mkr At 03:20 PM 7/13/98 -0400, you wrote: >Greetings all, > >I wonder how many people on this list got the letter from the TSA Board dated >6/22. We got a copy today, postmarked 7/10, and this is the day the proxies >are due, so there is an obvious suspicion that the mailing was selective and >not all members of the TSA received a copy. > >I'll admit I've tried really hard to see both sides in this mess as having >some honesty and maybe even just misunderstanding each other, but this piece >of claptrap from the Board of Directors makes that position very difficult to >hold. > >On the other hand, it was very nice of them to send us witness samples of all >the Board members so we can set up our machines and find out what's really >going on in their minds, to which Gerda adds, assuming they have minds. > >Chuck Cosimano From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:21:25 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: ACT Efforts Message-ID: <35A82BB5.8C8D3F7B@gate.net> Greetings Eldon, Thank you for your response to my recent post. Points taken. >Eldon wrote: >As to ACT's involvement, I assume than only its members can raise new items for its agenda, and I'm >not clear on how changes would be voted on, but I'd only expect someone like Ramadoss to make the >proposal to ACT should the circumstances prove right. Eldon, as a member of the TSA, you are indeed able to express your views and have an impact on all ACT issues. The Association of Concerned Theosophists requires only membership in TSA and a desire to be heard to be considered an ACTivist. There is no membership in ACT, one need only be in sympathy with ACT's aims. As always, My peace profound -K- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 12:02:03 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theosophical Websites Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980712120203.008755f0@mail.eden.com> I would like to prepare a list of theosophical websites. If anyone has a list, can you post it. I want to avoid reinventing the wheel! Thanks From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:00:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Bye Message-ID: Eldon: I think is is high time I left theos-talk, upon which my motives have been analyzed, called into question, and my desperation reduced to a matter for debate. Please therefore remove me. I shall remain available on ti-l and theos-l, and of course, by personal e-mail. Alan M. Bain. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:35:20 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: Corwall TI research acadamy Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980711003520.006842a4@mail.infoave.net> >>John E Mead wrote: >> >> I mentioned (to a couple of people) that it might be possible to apply to the >> Kern Foundation for money to start a physical location for TI. > Actually, not. Kern Foundation grants may not be used for real estate, >repairs, or building. > Bart Lidofsky good point (but missed the actual point...) I think that maybe the Cornwall TI Research staff could promote (small t) theosophy world wide. The question is what do we (speaking as a TI member for TI) want to do over the next year to promote theosophy world-wide. I would imagine that Dr A. Bain (and possibly a coworker) would do most of the work, management, and be full-time employed by the project. It would be money very well spent considering the large International communication network he/they have already establiched from which to draw. why would anyone think the think money would be spent on real estate ... that would be a waste of their/his talents. we need to finance TS information R&D for year 2000 and beyond. we need to create a theosophical, international, internet, multi-media, free-access (for-the-world), state of the art, organizational hub for the next millenia ... (I think I may qualify for a 'Dogbert New Ruling Class' award here :-) any helpers? or are we just too dumb and lazy to do things .. peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:31:52 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Help and ... Strings Message-ID: <35A6DCA8.EB3C94BA@gate.net> Greetings Eldon, The Theosophical Society in America (TSA) membership that feels supportive a particular effort (e.g. ACT), is, as previously stated, part of ones own march toward discernment. I do not quite understand why you have chosen to bring fellow TSA members, working for an open and participatory Theosophical Society into this discussion. What those, who are supportive of and are working for, an open, non dogmatic and democratic forum, of/by the current administration of the TSA, has to do with this original string, defies my understanding. Fellow members of our organization (TSA) have expressed their views openly, publicly, honestly and forthrightly. There should be no reason to address their efforts, by innuendo, in a negative manner. Another project? seperative? it can be well and truly said, with merit, it appears only ACT has the larger, expansive, inclusive and evolutionary view of the TSA in mind, heart and ACTion. If you wish to debate the merit or efforts of ACT, open another string, preferable on ACT-L. I look forward to responding to anything you question, find fault with or are unhappy about. Eldon, I do not think of you as snide or small-minded. In fact I consider you a gentlemen. Your statement following has confused me and indeed made me question your motivation in this unfortunate dialogue. Really, what has the effort of ACT toward democratization of our beloved Theosophical Society have to do with another's unfortunate circumstance. Please Eldon, reconsider further discussion along the lines of this original posting. As always, my peace profound, Ken Malkin Eldon wrote: Perhaps you could get ACT involved? Apart from local (US) theosophical politics, they could get involved in acquiring and setting up a theosophical center there? Something independent, apart from any established theosophical organization. It could house a number of people and Alan could be caretaker for life. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:44:07 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Corwall TI research acadamy Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980710224407.013b25b0@mail.eden.com> Excellent idea. Already we have seen the unifying effect of Internet on theosophical students. We have on Internet exchange of ideas and opinions between theosophists belonging to any one of the organizations as well as none at all. This has never happened in the last 123 years since TS was founded. mkr At 08:08 PM 7/10/1998 -0400, you wrote: >>>John E Mead wrote: >>> >>> I mentioned (to a couple of people) that it might be possible to apply to the >>> Kern Foundation for money to start a physical location for TI. > >> Actually, not. Kern Foundation grants may not be used for real estate, >>repairs, or building. >> Bart Lidofsky > >good point (but missed the actual point...) > >I think that maybe the Cornwall TI Research staff could promote >(small t) theosophy world wide. > >The question is what do we (speaking as a TI member for TI) want to do over >the next year >to promote theosophy world-wide. I would imagine that Dr A. Bain (and possibly >a coworker) would do most of the work, management, and be full-time employed >by the project. >It would be money very well spent considering the large International >communication network >he/they have already establiched from which to draw. > >why would anyone think the think money would be spent on real estate ... >that would be a waste >of their/his talents. we need to finance TS information R&D for year 2000 >and beyond. >we need to create a theosophical, international, internet, multi-media, >free-access >(for-the-world), state of the art, organizational hub for the next millenia ... >(I think I may qualify for a 'Dogbert New Ruling Class' award here :-) > >any helpers? or are we just too dumb and lazy to do things .. > >peace - > >john e. mead > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:53:36 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Help and ... Strings Message-ID: <35A6E1C0.717D1FD0@sprynet.com> I can't see anything in Eldon's post which is the least bit negative about ACT. Bart Lidofsky Ken Malkin wrote: > > Greetings Eldon, > > The Theosophical Society in America (TSA) membership that feels > supportive a particular effort > (e.g. ACT), is, as previously stated, part of ones own march toward > discernment. I do not quite understand why you have chosen to bring > fellow TSA members, working for an open and participatory Theosophical > Society into this discussion. What those, who are supportive of and are > working for, an open, non dogmatic and democratic forum, of/by the > current administration of the TSA, has to do with this original string, > defies my understanding. > > Fellow members of our organization (TSA) have expressed their views > openly, publicly, honestly and forthrightly. There should be no reason > to address their efforts, by innuendo, in a negative manner. Another > project? seperative? it can be well and truly said, with merit, it > appears only ACT has the larger, expansive, inclusive and evolutionary > view of the TSA in mind, heart and ACTion. If you wish to debate the > merit or efforts of ACT, open another string, preferable on ACT-L. I > look forward to responding to anything you question, find fault with or > are unhappy about. > > Eldon, I do not think of you as snide or small-minded. In fact I > consider you a gentlemen. Your statement following has confused me and > indeed made me question your motivation in this unfortunate dialogue. > Really, what has the effort of ACT toward democratization of our beloved > Theosophical Society have to do with another's unfortunate circumstance. > Please Eldon, reconsider further discussion along the lines of this > original posting. > > As always, my peace profound, > Ken Malkin > > Eldon wrote: > Perhaps you could get ACT involved? Apart from local (US) theosophical > politics, they could get involved in acquiring and setting up a > theosophical center there? Something independent, apart from any > established theosophical organization. It could house a number of > people and Alan could be caretaker for life. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:44:02 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Help and ... Strings Message-ID: <199807110440.XAA22175@proteus.imagiware.com> Ken: >I do not quite understand why you have chosen to bring >fellow TSA members, working for an open and participatory Theosophical >Society into this discussion. What those, who are supportive of and are >working for, an open, non dogmatic and democratic forum, of/by the >current administration of the TSA, has to do with this original string, >defies my understanding. I'm not bringing them into the string. If I were cross-posting things to act-l, that would be, but that's not my intention. Ramadoss' statement on theos-l gave me an idea that I though I'd share, an idea that might involve ACT, or perhaps not, but the idea was that an effort to set up a theosophical center with Alan Bain as resident manager might be one solution to his problem and at the same time a useful theosophical project in its own right. As to ACT's involvement, I assume than only its members can raise new items for its agenda, and I'm not clear on how changes would be voted on, but I'd only expect someone like Ramadoss to make the proposal to ACT should the circumstances prove right. This would not be to dilute anything ACT is currently doing, just an idea at a wider scope of theosophical work. And the idea of creating a theosophical center as a place to do good work and a solution to Alan's housing problem is being offered in good will and in an attempt to be helpful. >If you wish to debate the >merit or efforts of ACT, open another string, preferable on ACT-L. I >look forward to responding to anything you question, find fault with or >are unhappy about. I'm not finding fault with ACT, only keeping my eyes open for various ways of encouraging cooperation between the various groups and projects. >Eldon, I do not think of you as snide or small-minded. In fact I >consider you a gentlemen. Your statement following has confused me and >indeed made me question your motivation in this unfortunate dialogue. >Really, what has the effort of ACT toward democratization of our beloved >Theosophical Society have to do with another's unfortunate circumstance. Nothing to do with it. They are separate projects, and it might be ACT, if it chooses at some point to widen its agenda, or some other group of theosophists, might take up the idea of the creation of a theosophical center. >Please Eldon, reconsider further discussion along the lines of this >original posting. I don't plan to get involved in opening further discussion about Alan's situation, not offer additional comments or suggestions, but only respond to anything that is posted that requires a response. The idea of a creating a theosophical center was too good to let pass, though, and the involvement or not-involvement of ACT was incidental, a nice form of synergy if it could work out, but not key to the main idea. Best, -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:24:35 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: the failure to communicate Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980711172435.0067cfa8@mail.infoave.net> the fact that theosophists cannot exist *together* on a same mailing list is exactly why they (the lists) exist. I know; -- I started the first one on theosophy (theos-L) despite the help I received from Wheaton or any other organization. for the record.... it took Dr.Don DeGracia physically going to Olcott (yes -- I dragged him into the foray) spending hours there (and in talk-preparation) before Dr. JA even *saw* the issue we were addressing. 'Clueless' was a term defined before his time; he is still with us; clueless. e.g. (the national lodge for 'at-large' members was created in 1993 on Theos-L. ... but wheaton did not want us then. when we were *allowed* to affiliate with wheaton I refused to do so; it required theos-L to become a moderated list by Wheaton. don't forget our history. we will *NOT* learn from our mistakes. that is a proven *fact* -- but it is not *True*. peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:30:01 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: the failure to communicate Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980711163001.0099a540@mail.eden.com> At 01:02 PM 7/11/1998 -0400, you wrote: >the fact that theosophists cannot exist *together* on a same mailing >list is exactly why they (the lists) exist. > >I know; -- I started the first one on theosophy (theos-L) despite the >help I received from Wheaton or any other organization. > >for the record.... > >it took Dr.Don DeGracia physically going to Olcott (yes -- >I dragged him into the foray) spending hours there (and >in talk-preparation) before Dr. JA even *saw* the issue we were >addressing. 'Clueless' was a term defined before his time; he is >still with us; clueless. > >e.g. >(the national lodge for 'at-large' members >was created in 1993 on Theos-L. ... but wheaton did not >want us then. when we were *allowed* to affiliate with wheaton I >refused to do so; it required theos-L to become a moderated list by >Wheaton. > >don't forget our history. we will *NOT* learn from our mistakes. >that is a proven *fact* -- but it is not *True*. > > >peace - > >john e. mead Hi Your past decisions have been 100% right on target. Moderated lists don't work. Just look at the history. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 20:59:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: AW: "My way or else..." Message-ID: <53oYWSA8ESp1EwBE@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Mittelberger Martina writes > Now Alan is on the list, and some feel >guilty, because they do not help. But do they also feel guilty in all >the other cases ? I do. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 01:20:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Theosophy International List Message-ID: Dear All, When "TI" began, the following Statement of Intent (as it came to be called) was arrived at by much discussion and adaptation by subscribers to the theos-l list. The most significant aspect of this process was that it was achieved by consensus. It seems that in recent times (lately in part owing to my own personal troubles) the purpose of this list, which was defined as a discussion list to promote the objects and ideal of "TI" has faded into the background - almost non-existent, in fact. I would like to see it get back on track, and offer my personal thoughts on ways in which this might be done. To this end, I will go through the "Statement of Intent" adding comments here and there, and invite comments from subscribers. ---------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises men and women who, of their own free choice, subscribe to the spirit of the three objects first formulated by the Theosophical Society, but in a more up-to-date form based on suggestions by members of the internet community, and expressed thus: ---------- COMMENT: Note that TI members subscribe to the *spirit* of the TS three objects. This means that any kind of dogmatic approach is not in keeping with our intent. Ours, if you like, is small 't' theosophy, open to many kinds of interpretation, some of which might not use the word "theosophy" at all very much, if at all. ---------- 1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family, without distinction of sex, sexual orientation, creed, class, or color. --------- COMMENT: Note the emphasis here is on a nucleus *within* the universal *family*. In other words, we recognise that humanity is *already* a family, and seek to find ways or forwarding its welfare *as members of that family ourselves* - not as outsiders offering "solutions" nor dogmas or teachings which *alone* will solve the worlds problems. --------- 2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion, theosophy, philosophy, and the scientific method, according to individual ability and inclination. COMMENT: There is little to emphasize here, other than a commitment *to engage in study* in ways which members determine for themselves. One point of the list could be - maybe should be - for us to present the findings of our studies for discussion and refinement- in the same way as we originally arrived at our Staement of Intent. --------- 3. To investigate mysteries of nature and unrealized human potential and abilities, with an underlying respect for all life. COMMENT: All that is said under 2. above applies here also - but note the emphasis on *respect* - not just for each other, but for all life. ---------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is a voluntary network, whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or allegiance to the three objects, and to be registered as having done so. No belief system is required - nor assumed to be held - by any member. All have the right to choose, without trace of coercion, the path by which they seek understanding. There are no fees, no subscriptions, although voluntary donations and/or contributions could be made to specific projects or even individuals for particular and specified purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not need rules, whether anyone participates in or supports any such activity is an entirely personal matter. We hope to be of service, and to share what we have in amity with other theosophical, occult, and esoteric organizations, as also with like-minded individuals. --------- COMMENT: Note that no belief system is required nor assumed on the part on TI members, that participation is free and voluntary, and available for sharing. There are three main lists relating to theosophical matters, to which many or even most of us subscribe. These are TI-L, THEOS-L, and THEOS-TALK. The emphasis of these lists is different in each case, or was certainly intended to be, but the distinctions have become blurred. THEOS- TALK has seemed to me and many others to exist primarily for the discussion of big 'T' Theosophy based mainly upon the work or works of the founders of the Theosophical Socities resulting from the 1875 organisation headed, in effect, my Madame Blavatsky, Colonel Olcott, And W.Q.Judge. This is, IMO, essentially a forum for discussing what might loosely be termed 'dogmatic [teaching] theosophy' where certain concepts and ideas are taken as given. This is more important for some than for others. THEOS-L is a general discussion list for theosophical issues in general, but still with the main emphasis on the consequences (perhaps) which have arisen due to the work begun by the three TS founders mentioned above. TI-L, on the other hand, is open to all sahdes of opinion, and can be as eclectic and varied a forum as we care to make it. There should be room for "New Age" ideas, modern and revived traditional philosophical and religious approaches towards the esoteric, and above all, a shared feeling of belonging as "members, one of another." Being human, most of us have tended to subscribe to almost any list with the word "theosophy" attached to it. Unfortunately, there is also a tendency among many to *assume* that they will necesarily find themselves among others of almost identical "like-mindedness" - which is often far from the case. So, can we make of our discussion lists a more structured, and thus more valuable contribution to the well-being of humanity? Broadly speaking, I would personaly categorise the approaches of the three lists mentioned in the following way: THEOS-L is the "enquiry" department, where people come to discuss and discover the route they would like to take to the Light, the Truth, or whatever we wish to call it, and obtain helpful advice a comments from those perhaps more experienced than themselves. THEOS-TALK is the Theosophy department, consisting largely of those who have chosen the "traditional" route of the TS founders which began in 1875. TI-L is the "alternative" department, where individual routes and choices can be freely shared in a non-dogmatic manner, where the Druid path, the many New Age paths, the "Goddess" paths (just examples, the order is not intended to be significant) can meet in friendship and collaboration which may or may not need the *specific* delineation of "theosophy" as such. To sum up, let us attempt to find out own places among the choices available (there are of course others I have not mentioned) and, by and large, stay there, comfortable among what we might loosely call "our own kind" - without attempting to seek converts to a particular cause. Those who find a way which suits them best will then surely gravitate to the list(s) which suit that way, with a resultant greater degree of harmony among all concerned. I see "TI" as pragmatic, experiental, and empirical. Lets's shuffle ourselves around a bit, and keep our discussion "on topic" for the subjects and lists we find the most congenial. Just, as we often say, my .02 worth. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 21:41:54 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: Cornwall as home for TI? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980710014154.0069d7e4@mail.infoave.net> I mentioned (to a couple of people) that it might be possible to apply to the Kern Foundation for money to start a physical location for TI. It makes very good sense. of course it would be a longshot. However, if anyone wants to help I would be willing to devote some time to it. The best way to start is to get a copy of a grant to the foundation from which to structure the proposal (each group/foundation tends to like particular items emphasized for consideration). any takers?? peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 21:10:50 -0700 From: DAN Subject: Regarding the request for HELP Message-ID: <35A5944A.793F@gte.net> It's to bad the posting for HELP to this mailing list could not have been just that, a "posting" and nothing else... No critique... summing up humanity... the TS... or any other thing! Alan posted it... it's a good idea, let it rest... Let the money come from the spirit and heart and nothing else... Not from words and long arguements with people trying to convince others. Otherwise, this should have been posted to a debate or political maling list... Finally, you want to help... look around... I don't want to hear about it either, if you do tell others and the world, your also telling us, "Hey, look at me ain't I a %$^^% great righteous guy." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:18:38 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Cornwall as home for TI? Message-ID: <35A5961E.D4862EFC@sprynet.com> John E Mead wrote: > > I mentioned (to a couple of people) that it might be possible to apply to the > Kern Foundation for money to start a physical location for TI. Actually, not. Kern Foundation grants may not be used for real estate, repairs, or building. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 02:12:36 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Cornwall as home for TI? Message-ID: <655ececb.35a5b0d6@aol.com> In a message dated 98-07-09 21:17:38 EDT, you write: >The best way to start is to get a copy of a grant to the foundation >from which to structure the proposal (each group/foundation tends to like >particular items emphasized for consideration). > >any takers?? > > It's a good one. If Alan can hold out until John Kern usually tries to show up at convention and might be persuaded to offer some hints on how to go about it. Chuck From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:48:51 +0100 From: Mittelberger Martina Subject: AW: "My way or else..." Message-ID: <53867E964149D1118FAC0004ACEE5A111113B8@AVLRNT08> To the Topic 1) "My way or else..." by "K. Paul Johnson" I followed the discussion with a lot of interest. I agree with Paul. But I don not understand why he is feeling guilty, when he does not give money to Alan. I have been several times in India. There one can see, that it is impossible to help everyone, who needs help. One has to decide, which poor gets support and help and which not. It is a selective action and it is not nice to do. But thats the fact. So I do not feel guilty, when I do not support Alan. It is the same effect, when an earthquake is shown on TV. Then a lot of people give money, but they do not feel guilty when a lot of children starve every day in Africa. Now Alan is on the list, and some feel guilty, because they do not help. But do they also feel guilty in all the other cases ? Martina Martina Mittelberger E.Mail: martina.mittelberger@vlr.gv.at > ---------- > Von: theos-l@vnet.net[SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] > Antwort an: theos-l@vnet.net > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 9. Juli 1998 14:36 > An: Multiple recipients of list > Betreff: THEOS-L digest 1581 > > > 1) "My way or else..." > by "K. Paul Johnson" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:46:29 -0400 (EDT) > From: "K. Paul Johnson" > To: theos-l@vnet.net > Cc: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: "My way or else..." > Message-ID: <199807081446.KAA12336@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> > > you're an evil, uncharitable, heartless hypocrite." > > Yesterday I unsubscribed from theos-talk due to my feelings about > the recent discussions there. Since my last post there was > forwarded here without my foreknowledge, I will add a few words > about what I see happening there-- and now here. > > It's fine for Alan to come up with a plan that he thinks the most > workable, reasonable one to solve his problem. Fine for other > people to perceive that plan in the same way, and support it. > Fine for others to question the plan and say why they don't > support it. Fine for others to express ambivalence or explain > why they are unable to support it. Nothing in any of that is > objectionable. > > What is IMO absolutely intolerable is that those who support the > plan present it as the universal duty of everyone on the list to > do so, and demonize anyone who resists this claim. (If one is > "too poor" to contribute one is off the hook, but if one has > money that could be sent, and chooses not to do so for whatever > reason, one becomes the epitome of hypocrisy, lack of compassion, > untheosophical behavior, unbrotherliness, you name it.) > > Whenever any appeal is made to one's conscience, there are a > number of factors that come into play: > 1. Is this a good cause, e.g. will my help do any good? Here, > for example, it is easy to place contributing to disaster relief > to a recognized agency above contributing to someone who says "I > need this money to buy a gun." (I'm not making that up, it > happened to me.) > 2. Am I able to contribute the money, time or energy asked of me? > 3. Do I feel personally responsible for this, i.e. does this > situation have a particular claim on me? > 4. Can I trust the person or agency soliciting assistance to do > with it what they say they will? > > Now, in response to the raising of $130,000 for Alan and Bob to > purchase a house, in order to prevent Bob from doing violence to > himself or others which would occur should he be obliged to move, > I start out with a definite no to #1. I don't believe that the > stated plan will achieve the stated objective in any way that > seems secure. Moreover, I don't think the requisite amount can > be raised in the requisite time. Alan's time and energy would be > better spent by seeking ways to adjust Bob to the prospect of > moving, and to finding alternative lodging. If the move should > be financially burdensome, I'd contribute to that. As for > ability to contribute-- not very much but something. Now for the > criterion that can be easily attacked as "selfish" but which in > fact everyone applies. Family comes first, real life friends > come second, community needs come third in terms of my > responsiveness to claims for help. Why? I owe all these groups > something by virtue of what I have received from them. When it > comes to claims by virtue of being a fellow-Theosophist, or > having been acquainted on some e-lists for several years, those > just don't fall into the same category. Similarly, if *I* needed > help I'd go first to family, then to friends and then to the > community. With #4, I don't trust that the funds collected will > actually go to the purchase of the house, not because Alan won't > try his best to make that happen, but because it just doesn't > seem a likely outcome. > > I have been profoundly alienated by some of the things supporters > of the house purchase plan have said to those who express > reservations. To equate someone who wishes to avoid the kind of > > discussions that are now going on about this > particular scheme to solve this particular problem with the > Germans who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust is symptomatic of > what Jung called "inflation." Perceiving this cause to be good, > Thoa perceives opposition or indifference to it as evil, and > then elevates herself and those who share her perspective as "THE > GOOD GUYS" and those who do not become "THE EVIL ONES." Not in > so many words but implicitly. Similarly, Alan equates being a > sincere Theosophist with sending him money for this cause, and > regards anyone who can but won't as a hypocrite and bad > Theosophist. Doss identifies supporting this particular plan > with "help" and any questioning or criticism of it as "getting in > the way." I would reply that some of us don't see the house > buying scheme as helpful, and think that orienting Alan to other > approaches *is* helpful and the best way to a positive solution. > That's quite evidently true of Eldon's long and carefully thought > out post. > > Finally, Thoa perceives my reaction to this situation as > symptomatic of an effort to avoid guilt feelings. In fact, it > has inspired very deep guilt feelings, but not about Alan. > And in typical Scorpio fashion, I'm not avoiding them but rather > brooding for days. This has made me think about family, friends, > community, > coworkers, all the people to whom I clearly owe support in the > form of time, energy and money. And given the limitations on all > those commodities for almost everyone, most of us can probably > share that kind of guilt feeling that we just don't do enough > for others. It's having that underlying sense of responsibility > and guilt evoked, and then manipulated toward support of a > particular scheme to solve a particular problem-- a scheme that > meets none of the criteria I outline above-- that really disgusts > and angers me about the tactics of Alan's "supporters." > > I do hope and pray for a positive outcome for Alan and Bob. > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 11:45:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Help Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980709114517.00b75c3c@mail.eden.com> We all saw Alan's msg for help. In the Aug 98 issue of Popular Photography, there are pictures of Cornwall showing the stunning beauty of the place. If anyone has the money and want to invest in real estate in a serene and beautiful place, Cornwall looks ideal. It may also help Alan. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:45:11 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Help Message-ID: <199807091741.MAA25814@proteus.imagiware.com> >We all saw Alan's msg for help. In the Aug 98 issue of Popular Photography, >there are pictures of Cornwall showing the stunning beauty of the place. If >anyone has the money and want to invest in real estate in a serene and >beautiful place, Cornwall looks ideal. It may also help Alan. > >mkr Perhaps you could get ACT involved? Apart from local (US) theosophical politics, they could get involved in acquiring and setting up a theosophical center there? Something independent, apart from any established theosophical organization. It could house a number of people and Alan could be caretaker for life. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 00:35:35 -0700 From: Mark Kusek Subject: "My way or else..." Message-ID: <35A5C43D.27BA@withoutwalls.com> This is Thoa. Maybe this was designed to torture my active Leo nature, but I still receive the Theos-talk digests, even after I was told I was logged off. Since I can't respond to it via my e-mail, it was like being tied to a chair, witnessing awful stuff, and being unable to do anything about it. However, my active Leo nature circumvented that. So...here goes! Your quotes which I did not see coming from anyone else, "My way or else...," and "you're an evil, uncharitable, heartless hypocrite," suggests that is how you feel about the judgment of Alan and his supporters. Let me reiterate the situation. This all started on an awful day for Alan. His mentally ill friend's beloved cat has just died and they had just returned from saying good-bye to the cat. Also, that day, Alan (forgive me, Alan) just found out from the doctors that he had Parkinsons' disease, the disease that killed his father. That on top of the fact that he has osteo-arthritis, a debilitating disease. How debilitating? Alan could barely move without enormous pain. On days that he could move (never without pain), then he feels he is doing good. Through all of his own personal problems, his first and foremost thought was of his mentally ill friend, who he has a long connection and loyalty to, and who has stood by Alan when he was not so mentally ill. His friend is usually a very sweet-natured guy who is incapable of ulterior motives. His feelings of frustration and suicide were pure honest feelings, not designed to manipulate anyone. On that day, they received notification from his landlord that there is a strong possibility that they will be evicted. The landlord was not being evil or heartless, but is also in dire straits himself. His mentally ill friend, already upset at the loss of his beloved cat, told Alan that he could not stand it any longer, and might take his own life and someone else's. Alan, after exhausting possibilities from local help, lastly made a plea to the list. When he did not get a response, with the exception of a few friends, he sent a post that resulted from his desperation. He received private help. But what did he publicly receive on the list? He received some true sympathy, but he also received arrogant analysis of his situation, telling him what he should do with his friend Bob. In effect, basically to toss Bob away, which is unconscionable to him. The posts basically belittled Alan's assessment of his own situation, and his need to ask for help. It was to that that I was offended and sent my general post. I basically stated that Alan needs help, not a bunch of analysis. I did not say that if you do not want to help, or if you can't help, that you are evil. My reaction was to the verbal analysis that clearly was unsympathetic to Alan's plight. Kym responded in like. Eldon sent in a post insinuating that Alan's supporters were probably hypocrites, who do not do as they say. On top of that, he tossed salt on the wound by calling Alan's situation a "drama" and proceeded to arrogantly tell Alan the various way he could handle his friend "Bob". Along with that, Paul sent in a post with woes about his own feelings. To Paul, although I was annoyed at his selfish involvement with his own feelings when someone else is in deep pain, I responded with as much kindness as I could because I could sense that he is afraid. To Eldon, I was rougher because I sensed a lot of arrogance. Who is Eldon to tell Alan what to do with "Bob"? The last thing I wanted to do was to turn Alan's plight into a debate. However, I could not stand by while awful things are posted that belittled Alan's plight and assessment of his own situation. To let those posts stand unchallenged is to express my acquiescence. What I want to say to Paul, Brenda and Eldon is this. Alan is obviously in deep pain. Can you spare for one moment your need to focus on yourself or your need for analysis, which when publicly posted only throws salt to the wound. If you feel offended or put upon, can you at least, for Alan's sake, give Alan the grace of not publicly putting him down. Paul, if you did not want to help Alan, why did you have to post such an awful letter insinuating that Alan is an unemployed freeloader? Nobody would have known that you did not help. Alan is not going to post a list of who helped him or not. In my private conversations with Alan, he only said in general of the possibilities of help. No names or dollar amounts were said. Yes, your feelings are valid. But I will say that you are being selfish when you feel you have to post about your woeful feelings, and how Alan is the cause of them. Again, if you do not want to help him, can't you even give Alan that grace? Or as Doss said, if you can't help, then get the hell out of the way! Some of the responses I privately received for my two posts? One was from a friend of Paul chastising me for publicly responding to Paul. His friend did not consider the fact that Paul publicly posted his comments in the first place! Another response was from Eldon who took his response privately to me because I was being too "emotional." I did not respond to Eldon because one, I really have no interest in debating over Alan's plight, and two, my only interest was to respond to the public harm and belittlement of Alan's plight. To privately debate with Eldon does not fit my aim. And please, I'm really tired of theosophists chastising people for being emotional. Emotion is what makes us respond and have heart for a situation. It helps to light the fire under me to take action. Since I figured I did my best in my posts, and nothing else will move anyone in their particular leanings, I had no further interest to stay in an atmosphere which is out of touch with reality. Having said my piece, I'd like to respond to your post. Paul wrote: What is IMO absolutely intolerable is that those who support the plan present it as the universal duty of everyone on the list to do so, and demonize anyone who resists this claim. (If one is "too poor" to contribute one is off the hook, but if one has money that could be sent, and chooses not to do so for whatever reason, one becomes the epitome of hypocrisy, lack of compassion, untheosophical behavior, unbrotherliness, you name it.) Thoa responds: Besides possible insinuation by Alan in his desperation, I don't think anyone ever said that if you did not want to contribute, then you are a demon. The only referral to hypocrisy and lack of compassion is to the verbal treatment of Alan. I already explained my reasons. Paul wrote: Whenever any appeal is made to one's conscience, there are a number of factors that come into play: 1. Is this a good cause, e.g. will my help do any good? Here, for example, it is easy to place contributing to disaster relief Thoa responds: Whatever your reasons for helping or not, the only thing I ask is you get out of the way. There's no need to kick an animal when he's already injured. Analysis, justification, all frilly words. You either help or don't, but please get the hell out of the way. Paul wrote: Now, in response to the raising of $130,000 for Alan and Bob to purchase a house, in order to prevent Bob from doing violence to himself or others which would occur should he be obliged to move, I start out with a definite no to #1. I don't believe that the stated plan will achieve the stated objective in any way that seems secure. Moreover, I don't think the requisite amount can Thoa responds: You can analyze all you want about what Alan should do. But you're basically saying that Alan is incapable of assesing his own situation. This is not helping at all. Paul wrote: reservations. To equate someone who wishes to avoid the kind of discussions that are now going on about this particular scheme to solve this particular problem with the Germans who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust is symptomatic of what Jung called "inflation." Thoa responds: This is not "inflation." I was only explaining the mechanics of indifference. Alan's situation and the Holocaust, there is a difference. However, how do you think the Holocaust became a Holocaust? Do you think it happened overnight? It started with regular people going their daily lives, worrying about themselves, not being aware of what's going on in the government, what's going on in the world, or what's going on with their neighbors. Then it escalated to news of some awful doings. The regular guys brush it off, saying it's isolated, and that they're too worried about their own affairs to bother, and that it's not as bad as it sounds. Before they know it, it's grown into something enormous and horrendous, and the regular guys are now worried about their own asses and justify that it's too big for them to deal with it. In all instances, from small to large situations, the human mechanics is still the same. In all of it, justification to not notice and do anything. Paul wrote: Perceiving this cause to be good, Thoa perceives opposition or indifference to it as evil, and then elevates herself and those who share her perspective as "THE GOOD GUYS" and those who do not become "THE EVIL ONES." Not in so many words but implicitly. Thoa responds: Oh? Reread those passages. The mechanics are true, are they not? You don't think that is what happens in society? Why do you think people like George Soros spent money to set up foundations in order to educate people to cherish their freedom? If you're not conscious of where you are and cherish it, you can lose it in the blink of an eye. Paul wrote: Similarly, Alan equates being a sincere Theosophist with sending him money for this cause, and regards anyone who can but won't as a hypocrite and bad Theosophist. Thoa responds: I already told you that Alan was yelping in pain. You still cannot find it in your heart to understand that and forgive him. Paul wrote: Doss identifies supporting this particular plan with "help" and any questioning or criticism of it as "getting in the way." I would reply that some of us don't see the house buying scheme as helpful, and think that orienting Alan to other approaches *is* helpful and the best way to a positive solution. Thoa responds: You're healthy and not about to be evicted. Can you find the grace to get out of the way? I'm sure that Alan already thought of other approaches, but he wants to try it this way. Telling him what he already knows is not helping anything. Again, you don't have to help, but I wish you would get out of the way. Paul wrote: That's quite evidently true of Eldon's long and carefully thought out post. Thoa responds: Really! Eldon's post was carefully thought out? Carefully thought out connected to his compassion or his need for arrogant analysis? All I saw was the insinuation that Alan's supporters were hypocrites, a downplaying of Alan's situation as a drama, and an arrogant assumption that he can tell Alan what to do with "Bob." Paul wrote: Finally, Thoa perceives my reaction to this situation as symptomatic of an effort to avoid guilt feelings. In fact, it has inspired very deep guilt feelings, but not about Alan. And in typical Scorpio fashion, I'm not avoiding them but rather brooding for days. This has made me think about family, friends, community, coworkers, all the people to whom I clearly owe support in the form of time, energy and money. And given the limitations on all those commodities for almost everyone, most of us can probably share that kind of guilt feeling that we just don't do enough for others. It's having that underlying sense of responsibility and guilt evoked, and then manipulated toward support of a particular scheme to solve a particular problem-- a scheme that meets none of the criteria I outline above-- that really disgusts and angers me about the tactics of Alan's "supporters." Thoa responds: You can try to water down Alan's plight as much as you like by throwing in your friends, community, and worldly plights. What have they got to do with Alan's plight? You either help or you don't. That's it. Paul wrote: I do hope and pray for a positive outcome for Alan and Bob. Thoa responds: At this point, doing that would be a whole lot more help than your last couple awful posts. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 17:01:38 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: My way etc. ... Message-ID: <35A52FB1.88F6D46F@gate.net> Greetings one and all, I believe we have gone overboard with this entire issue. This is not brain surgery. It was/is a simple request for financial help. The man is well known to us all and we should be well capable of making our own decisions, individually. I am sure that people do not go public with 'stuff' unless the need is dire. Yes, it my be a matter of interpretation, but that is what the work of discernment is all about. It is unseemly to continue to opinionate upon and drag someone's needs through public forums. I believe I am associated with refines ladies and gentlemen. All of us do the best we can. The best we can starts with understanding and compassion and ends with action. To do nothing is as an acceptable act. It need not be justified. Lets just leave this string now, we need not continue to embarrass ourselves. As always, my peace profound Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 17:05:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Help Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980709170552.00b1c884@mail.eden.com> At 01:51 PM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote: >>We all saw Alan's msg for help. In the Aug 98 issue of Popular Photography, >>there are pictures of Cornwall showing the stunning beauty of the place. If >>anyone has the money and want to invest in real estate in a serene and >>beautiful place, Cornwall looks ideal. It may also help Alan. >> >>mkr > >Perhaps you could get ACT involved? Apart from local (US) theosophical >politics, they could get involved in acquiring and setting up a >theosophical center there? Something independent, apart from any >established theosophical organization. It could house a number of >people and Alan could be caretaker for life. > >-- Eldon A very good idea. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:46:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: "My way or else..." Message-ID: <199807081446.KAA12336@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> you're an evil, uncharitable, heartless hypocrite." Yesterday I unsubscribed from theos-talk due to my feelings about the recent discussions there. Since my last post there was forwarded here without my foreknowledge, I will add a few words about what I see happening there-- and now here. It's fine for Alan to come up with a plan that he thinks the most workable, reasonable one to solve his problem. Fine for other people to perceive that plan in the same way, and support it. Fine for others to question the plan and say why they don't support it. Fine for others to express ambivalence or explain why they are unable to support it. Nothing in any of that is objectionable. What is IMO absolutely intolerable is that those who support the plan present it as the universal duty of everyone on the list to do so, and demonize anyone who resists this claim. (If one is "too poor" to contribute one is off the hook, but if one has money that could be sent, and chooses not to do so for whatever reason, one becomes the epitome of hypocrisy, lack of compassion, untheosophical behavior, unbrotherliness, you name it.) Whenever any appeal is made to one's conscience, there are a number of factors that come into play: 1. Is this a good cause, e.g. will my help do any good? Here, for example, it is easy to place contributing to disaster relief to a recognized agency above contributing to someone who says "I need this money to buy a gun." (I'm not making that up, it happened to me.) 2. Am I able to contribute the money, time or energy asked of me? 3. Do I feel personally responsible for this, i.e. does this situation have a particular claim on me? 4. Can I trust the person or agency soliciting assistance to do with it what they say they will? Now, in response to the raising of $130,000 for Alan and Bob to purchase a house, in order to prevent Bob from doing violence to himself or others which would occur should he be obliged to move, I start out with a definite no to #1. I don't believe that the stated plan will achieve the stated objective in any way that seems secure. Moreover, I don't think the requisite amount can be raised in the requisite time. Alan's time and energy would be better spent by seeking ways to adjust Bob to the prospect of moving, and to finding alternative lodging. If the move should be financially burdensome, I'd contribute to that. As for ability to contribute-- not very much but something. Now for the criterion that can be easily attacked as "selfish" but which in fact everyone applies. Family comes first, real life friends come second, community needs come third in terms of my responsiveness to claims for help. Why? I owe all these groups something by virtue of what I have received from them. When it comes to claims by virtue of being a fellow-Theosophist, or having been acquainted on some e-lists for several years, those just don't fall into the same category. Similarly, if *I* needed help I'd go first to family, then to friends and then to the community. With #4, I don't trust that the funds collected will actually go to the purchase of the house, not because Alan won't try his best to make that happen, but because it just doesn't seem a likely outcome. I have been profoundly alienated by some of the things supporters of the house purchase plan have said to those who express reservations. To equate someone who wishes to avoid the kind of discussions that are now going on about this particular scheme to solve this particular problem with the Germans who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust is symptomatic of what Jung called "inflation." Perceiving this cause to be good, Thoa perceives opposition or indifference to it as evil, and then elevates herself and those who share her perspective as "THE GOOD GUYS" and those who do not become "THE EVIL ONES." Not in so many words but implicitly. Similarly, Alan equates being a sincere Theosophist with sending him money for this cause, and regards anyone who can but won't as a hypocrite and bad Theosophist. Doss identifies supporting this particular plan with "help" and any questioning or criticism of it as "getting in the way." I would reply that some of us don't see the house buying scheme as helpful, and think that orienting Alan to other approaches *is* helpful and the best way to a positive solution. That's quite evidently true of Eldon's long and carefully thought out post. Finally, Thoa perceives my reaction to this situation as symptomatic of an effort to avoid guilt feelings. In fact, it has inspired very deep guilt feelings, but not about Alan. And in typical Scorpio fashion, I'm not avoiding them but rather brooding for days. This has made me think about family, friends, community, coworkers, all the people to whom I clearly owe support in the form of time, energy and money. And given the limitations on all those commodities for almost everyone, most of us can probably share that kind of guilt feeling that we just don't do enough for others. It's having that underlying sense of responsibility and guilt evoked, and then manipulated toward support of a particular scheme to solve a particular problem-- a scheme that meets none of the criteria I outline above-- that really disgusts and angers me about the tactics of Alan's "supporters." I do hope and pray for a positive outcome for Alan and Bob. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:13:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World "My way or else..." Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980708141308.0183f100@mail.eden.com> Since I have been mentioned, I need to clarify my point of view to avoid any misconstruction of where I am coming from. Alan is the person on the spot and he perhaps has the best assessment of the situation and also has the responsibility to resolve it in the best possible manner. Having said this, I have seen over the years, many plans which looked impossible later turned out successful -- almost a miracle. Hence I did not want to rule out even the slightest possibility and the best thing is to TRY. As for contributing or not, the decision hinges on multifarious factors and priorities and only the contributor is in a position to decide so the decision of the contributor is to be respected. While Alan is trying to solve the problem in a specific manner, who knows the problem may be resolved in a slightly different way altogether. All we can hope is for the problem is solved and end result is all that counts. ..doss At 10:46 AM 7/8/1998 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >you're an evil, uncharitable, heartless hypocrite." > >Yesterday I unsubscribed from theos-talk due to my feelings about >the recent discussions there. Since my last post there was >forwarded here without my foreknowledge, I will add a few words >about what I see happening there-- and now here. > >It's fine for Alan to come up with a plan that he thinks the most >workable, reasonable one to solve his problem. Fine for other >people to perceive that plan in the same way, and support it. >Fine for others to question the plan and say why they don't >support it. Fine for others to express ambivalence or explain >why they are unable to support it. Nothing in any of that is >objectionable. > >What is IMO absolutely intolerable is that those who support the >plan present it as the universal duty of everyone on the list to >do so, and demonize anyone who resists this claim. (If one is >"too poor" to contribute one is off the hook, but if one has >money that could be sent, and chooses not to do so for whatever >reason, one becomes the epitome of hypocrisy, lack of compassion, >untheosophical behavior, unbrotherliness, you name it.) > >Whenever any appeal is made to one's conscience, there are a >number of factors that come into play: >1. Is this a good cause, e.g. will my help do any good? Here, >for example, it is easy to place contributing to disaster relief > >to a recognized agency above contributing to someone who says "I >need this money to buy a gun." (I'm not making that up, it >happened to me.) >2. Am I able to contribute the money, time or energy asked of me? >3. Do I feel personally responsible for this, i.e. does this >situation have a particular claim on me? >4. Can I trust the person or agency soliciting assistance to do >with it what they say they will? > >Now, in response to the raising of $130,000 for Alan and Bob to >purchase a house, in order to prevent Bob from doing violence to >himself or others which would occur should he be obliged to move, >I start out with a definite no to #1. I don't believe that the >stated plan will achieve the stated objective in any way that >seems secure. Moreover, I don't think the requisite amount can >be raised in the requisite time. Alan's time and energy would be >better spent by seeking ways to adjust Bob to the prospect of >moving, and to finding alternative lodging. If the move should >be financially burdensome, I'd contribute to that. As for >ability to contribute-- not very much but something. Now for the >criterion that can be easily attacked as "selfish" but which in >fact everyone applies. Family comes first, real life friends >come second, community needs come third in terms of my >responsiveness to claims for help. Why? I owe all these groups >something by virtue of what I have received from them. When it >comes to claims by virtue of being a fellow-Theosophist, or >having been acquainted on some e-lists for several years, those >just don't fall into the same category. Similarly, if *I* needed >help I'd go first to family, then to friends and then to the >community. With #4, I don't trust that the funds collected will >actually go to the purchase of the house, not because Alan won't >try his best to make that happen, but because it just doesn't >seem a likely outcome. > >I have been profoundly alienated by some of the things supporters >of the house purchase plan have said to those who express >reservations. To equate someone who wishes to avoid the kind of >discussions that are now going on about this >particular scheme to solve this particular problem with the >Germans who turned a blind eye to the Holocaust is symptomatic of >what Jung called "inflation." Perceiving this cause to be good, >Thoa perceives opposition or indifference to it as evil, and >then elevates herself and those who share her perspective as "THE >GOOD GUYS" and those who do not become "THE EVIL ONES." Not in >so many words but implicitly. Similarly, Alan equates being a >sincere Theosophist with sending him money for this cause, and >regards anyone who can but won't as a hypocrite and bad >Theosophist. Doss identifies supporting this particular plan >with "help" and any questioning or criticism of it as "getting in >the way." I would reply that some of us don't see the house >buying scheme as helpful, and think that orienting Alan to other >approaches *is* helpful and the best way to a positive solution. >That's quite evidently true of Eldon's long and carefully thought >out post. > >Finally, Thoa perceives my reaction to this situation as >symptomatic of an effort to avoid guilt feelings. In fact, it >has inspired very deep guilt feelings, but not about Alan. >And in typical Scorpio fashion, I'm not avoiding them but rather >brooding for days. This has made me think about family, friends, community, >coworkers, all the people to whom I clearly owe support in the >form of time, energy and money. And given the limitations on all >those commodities for almost everyone, most of us can probably >share that kind of guilt feeling that we just don't do enough >for others. It's having that underlying sense of responsibility >and guilt evoked, and then manipulated toward support of a >particular scheme to solve a particular problem-- a scheme that >meets none of the criteria I outline above-- that really disgusts >and angers me about the tactics of Alan's "supporters." > >I do hope and pray for a positive outcome for Alan and Bob. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 21:03:17 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: "My way or else..." Message-ID: K. Paul Johnson writes >I do hope and pray for a positive outcome for Alan and Bob. Dear Paul, Thank you. I will refrain from commenting on the nature of the disussion(s) my plight has resulted in, save to say, that being sound in mind and body myself, I asked the list (in desperation and with trepidation) for cash. Cash is the positive outcome we still need, as the danger remains of a) homelessness b) suicide and c) physical harm to a third party (which could be followed by b). This was never intended to be an exercise in theosophical discussion, though the fact that it has become one is sadly interesting. When one is (figuratively) hanging on the cliff edge by the fingertips, discussing the reasons for how the person got there *in front of the person concerned* does not inspire confidence that people are going to reach out a hand and pull the person up. That's what they need, that's what they ask for, and in the real world, that's what they would get. 'nuff said. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:35:20 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The July THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The July issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Dialectic in THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE" by Paul Johnson "The Otherworlds" by Annette Rivington "Regarding the Devas" by Eldon Tucker "Upcoming Conference on Future Work For Theosophy" "An Example of Brotherhood" by Alan Bain "Dear Friend" by Laura "Psychic Powers and 'The Mind's Eye'" by Eldon Tucker "Our Directives" by Grace F. Knoche "Higher Knowledge is Real and Not Elitist" by Eldon Tucker "Blavatsky.Net Update" by Reed Carson "Siddhis in the Context of Service" by Murray Stentiford "No More Priests" by Walt Whitman "Dear Associates" by the United Lodge of Theosophists "Comments on the Masters" by Eldon Tucker "Evil is the Absence of Virtue" by Greg Westlake THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 19:43:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: More Disclosure by tax exempt organizations in USA Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980707194308.012a0220@mail.eden.com> When any organization obtains tax exempt status from Federal Income Taxation, in effect taxpayers are subsidizing the organizations. Over a period of time there have been efforts to expand the availability of information about the organizations based on the fact that more disclosure is in public interest. Already many types of information is in public domain at this time. Here is the latest from IRS. BTW, there is encourgement to make the information available on Internet so that anyone could access them any time. Tune in for more of the same in future. MKR From THE EO TAX BULLETIN, 1998-#9, July 7, 1998 "Disclosure Rules Will Increase Public Interest in Form 990, Owens Says New public disclosure rules for tax-exempt organizations could have a "significant impact" on exempt organizations' relations with the public, IRS Exempt Organizations Division Director Marcus S. Owens said June 18. Speaking in Washington at a conference on nonprofits sponsored by the AICPA, Owens said he expects the disclosure requirements under section 6104(e) -- which require an exempt organization to provide a copy of its Form 990 information return immediately to someone who requests it in person and within 30 days if a request is made in writing -- will lead to greater interest by the public in the finances and activities of exempt organizations. For that reason exempts should fill out their information returns completely and accurately, he advised. "I think it behooves organizations to begin looking at the 990 as primarily a communication document with the public," Owens said, explaining that in filling out the return, exempt organizations often seem to think the less they say to the IRS the better off they are. "That has the potential of backfiring for charities that are looking for money from the public. The Form 990s are going to be circulated. The data is going to be out there." He also noted there is space on Form 990 for an organization to explain what it does to deserve its exempt status. He predicted organizations will be more accurate in completing Form 990 because of the form's increased visibility." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:22:37 +0400 From: "K. Zaitzev" Subject: re: help Alan Message-ID: <199807080622.KAA15870@idg.chph.ras.ru> Hi Thoa. t> Alan is unemployed because he is disabled. He is 65 and crippled by t> osteoarthritis. It is a debilitating disease. From what I know about t> it, I would guess he is in constant pain Let he posts to the maillists his photograph. There was a discussion among our sorceres, do magic operations over digital photographs work as well as over conventional ones, but anyway I'm sure that there are healers who could try to help him among our subscribers. The second thing I propose is to select the time (I prefer 12.00 GMT to avoid errors) when as much as possible of our subscribers will send the helpful thoughts. One may even try to direct "world financial currents" to particular person though sometimes it leads to unexpected results. Of course we should state previuosly, what particular kind of in- fluence. t> But if Alan says he's also crippled and mentally disabled, I believe him. It's the worst of all. > Paul wrote: > Alan, I work full time and am barely keeping out of > debt, have next to no savings and live in a $24,500 house which Here I rather agree with Paul. When I first read about $130000 and "life & death" I've first thought that it's the debt. If one is owed some money to mafia, the debt grows very fast. In Russia it's called "set on meter". Or the other reason for such a sum is a kidnap. But as I understood, Alan simply has no place to live. But what reason to buy such a expensive house - it would better rent a small one room apartment. The sum requiered for that could be easily collected. t> Did Hitler commit destruction all by himself? Of course not! Did the t> majority of the people actively commit heinous crime? No. Anyway, it was majority of people who have they have done it "intentially". Majority denied painter Schikelgruber but readily accepted him when he became dictator Hitler. Moreover, they were glad that he makes all dirty work for them and frees them from responsibility (as they thought). Maybe Hitler himself is less responsible because he conscoiusly _took that responsibility_. I think when someone conscioussly makes the crime, it isn't a crime but an error, but when someone refuses to think by himself and makes what Hitler or someone else has ordered to him, it's the real crime. > Paul wrote: > But that is not reasonable advice for the real world we are living in. The world is not real, it's a maya. :) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:35:36 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The July THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The July issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Dialectic in THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE" by Paul Johnson "The Otherworlds" by Annette Rivington "Regarding the Devas" by Eldon Tucker "Upcoming Conference on Future Work For Theosophy" "An Example of Brotherhood" by Alan Bain "Dear Friend" by Laura "Psychic Powers and 'The Mind's Eye'" by Eldon Tucker "Our Directives" by Grace F. Knoche "Higher Knowledge is Real and Not Elitist" by Eldon Tucker "Blavatsky.Net Update" by Reed Carson "Siddhis in the Context of Service" by Murray Stentiford "No More Priests" by Walt Whitman "Dear Associates" by the United Lodge of Theosophists "Comments on the Masters" by Eldon Tucker "Evil is the Absence of Virtue" by Greg Westlake THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:35:45 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The July THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The July issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Dialectic in THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE" by Paul Johnson "The Otherworlds" by Annette Rivington "Regarding the Devas" by Eldon Tucker "Upcoming Conference on Future Work For Theosophy" "An Example of Brotherhood" by Alan Bain "Dear Friend" by Laura "Psychic Powers and 'The Mind's Eye'" by Eldon Tucker "Our Directives" by Grace F. Knoche "Higher Knowledge is Real and Not Elitist" by Eldon Tucker "Blavatsky.Net Update" by Reed Carson "Siddhis in the Context of Service" by Murray Stentiford "No More Priests" by Walt Whitman "Dear Associates" by the United Lodge of Theosophists "Comments on the Masters" by Eldon Tucker "Evil is the Absence of Virtue" by Greg Westlake THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:24:59 EDT From: Thoalight@aol.com Subject: Seeing Brenda's Point Message-ID: Paul wrote: I was sad to see Brenda get jumped on, very sad to learn of Alan's difficult situation, and irritated by the assumptions behind several comments earlier by Alan and Thoa. Generally this whole situation has made me so uncomfortable with the list that I've considered signing off for a while. Thoa responds: Paul, thank you for your honest input. It gives me a chance to respond to the fear and judgment that I'm sure is in a lot of people's minds. I sense a lot of fear, judgment and comparison in your post. Paul wrote: First: I was so startled by the suggestion that some individual here might have a spare $130,000 to donate for a good cause that like so many others, I just passed it by without knowing what to make of it. Thoa responds: Alan is not asking $130,000 from one individual. He is hoping that collectively, from individuals, organizations, etc., he could collect $130,000. The difference between Alan's situation and other good causes, is that Alan has nowhere else to turn to. Whether it be $20 or $130,000, the money will help toward his goal, or for finding other housing. You can say that there are a lot of people suffering out there that we don't know about. However, that is not the point. The point is right here in front of us. Alan has made a plea. Can we help? Paul wrote: Alan, I work full time and am barely keeping out of debt, have next to no savings and live in a $24,500 house which it's a struggle to make mortgage payments on while maintaining it and a barely middle class lifestyle. Not "poor" but just scraping along, one paycheck from disaster as Jake put it (I think.) Thoa responds: If you cannot afford it, then don't worry about financially helping Alan. I can sympathize with that. I used to have times when I ration out one chicken, until the last day, when it becomes chicken bone spaghetti. There are other ways of helping. You can become conscious of Alan's plight. You can send e- mails of condolences to Alan to ease his fears. You can find out how he's doing. You can offer suggestions. If you have connections, you can route Alan's plight to your connections. Anything is better than pretending that he doesn't exist, or grilling him as to why he would need or seek help. If he says he needs help, he needs help. Paul wrote: So the *second* post, Alan, in which you brought up the First Object, expressed anger that only one person had responded, and not very subtly called anyone not offering you help a bad Theosophist, was irritating. Thoa responds: Alan was afraid and desperate. See how loud anybody yelps, and how s/he would cling on to any little hope when s/he is desperate. I hope you would understand that. Paul wrote: Helping unemployed people buy a house worth more than five times what I can afford while working, people I have never met, doesn't feel like my Theosophical duty. Thoa responds: Alan is unemployed because he is disabled. He is 65 and crippled by osteo- arthritis. It is a debilitating disease. From what I know about it, I would guess he is in constant pain, and that if he's able to move around (despite the pain), then it is a good day. His friend, I know little of his condition. But if Alan says he's also crippled and mentally disabled, I believe him. Alan and his friend only have each other. They can't go and live with relatives if they're booted out of their home. You may have never met Alan, but you've seen him on these lists for years. You should be able to sense that he is telling the truth, that he is not out to take advantage of anyone, and that he would not ask for more than what he needs. Can you define theosophical duty for me? I would think it is, first and foremost, to feel compassion for others. In fact, this is also a Christian, Buddhist, and humanist duty. Does it even have to be a duty? What about doing it because you want to, because of something that makes you sympathize with someone or something else, whether it be human, animal, vegetable, or mineral? Paul wrote: Second: The greatest concern here to me is that someone is threatening to do violence to himself or others if a certain outcome (i.e. staying in the same house) does not occur. I just cannot see any sense, in *any* situation like this, of providing the said person the thing demanded as a cure for the problem. Like Brenda, I wonder if someone capable of making such threats over one issue can ever be dealt with by such appeasement, and if they would recur over other situations. Thoa responds: I would trust Alan to know best what his situation and need is. We definitely do not know more than he what his need is. What I really see here from you and Brenda is the guilt over not wanting to, or not being able to help. Through mentally figuring out reasons why the person should not seek help and why you should not help them, you cancel out your own guilt. People have done this for ages over all causes, from the Holocaust to racism. Did Hitler commit destruction all by himself? Of course not! Did the majority of the people actively commit heinous crime? No. The majority mentally made up a bunch of reasons as to why they should not do something. Is it silly to compare the situation of the holocaust to Alan's plight? I believe the mechanics and excuses of the human mind to not do anything is the same in both cases, which is from fear and justification. Fear is a funny thing, isn't it? It makes the other person OTHER, someone we don't know, and someone we shouldn't have to worry about. (I'm amused at how many people will claim that they don't know you when you ask for help.) It makes the other person the enemy, the one intruding on MY security. What is the difference between Alan intruding on your financial and mental (freedom from guilt, freedom from fear of peer rejection) security, and you intruding on a Blavatsky devotee's security? This is not to use your sore spot against you, but it is to relate to something you know. They're both based on fear. Fear makes us yelp and get angry, as in Alan's case. Fear makes us justify. We compare. We say that person has this better than us. We say that person does not really need our help. We say that person should find help somewhere else, but NOT from us...what can we do? We say that we are suffering, too, and nobody's doing anything for us. Gotta look out for number ONE. Reiterating the Holocaust again, thousands of people say, gotta look out for number ONE. If we harbor a Jew, our family will get killed. So many silent majority allowing so many things to slip by. Paul wrote: Third: It is indeed a dreadful situation and I have worried over it a lot in these last few days. Sharing such concerns on the list may be appropriate. Direct appeals for funds, and spiritually judgmental commentary on people who don't ante up, don't seem appropriate uses of the list IMO. But that seems to be a minority view. Thoa responds: A theosophical list is composed of people who preached Brother/Sisterliness, compassion, and interconnectedness. What would be a more appropriate place? We communicate via the lists, but we're still people at the computer. Does that negate our responsibilities? As far as being judgmental toward people who don't ante up, I did not see any of that beyond Alan's desperate anger. The negative responses, from people sympathetic to Alan, were to how Alan was verbally treated. Paul wrote: Fourth: Thoa, it may be perfectly legitimate in some ideal world to say "Give whatever is asked of you, from the heart, without taking any thought." But that is not reasonable advice for the real world we are living in. I feel pressured by such comments to join the fundraising campaign, and stigmatized by negative remarks about those who do not contribute. Thoa responds: I am not a gullible give everything to anyone who comes knocking at the door. It will have to be a legitimate cause and I will have to sense that the person or organization is straight with me. Otherwise, I will not contribute a cent. Once I've determined that the appeal is true, then I give without grilling someone as to what s/he's going to do with my money, or whether s/he needs it at all. If s/he has a need, then I believe him/her. I give my money and leave it to that individual to decide on how to apply it. Because a person needs help doesn't mean that s/he should be stripped of the dignity of making his/her own personal decisions. Paul wrote: This has all raised my consciousness about several issues, and for that I'm grateful. But the way the issue has affected discourse on the list makes me uncomfortable with continuing here. Thoa responds: Unfortunately, it is too often a response that people run away when they have the added pressure of thinking of others. People do several things. They note the situation but mentally justify remaining closed within their personal boundaries. They pretend that the situation is nothing, and shouldn't be fussed over. Or they run away to where they don't have to hear about it. To let you know how some on the lists have responded to Alan's plight. This is based on my personal e-mail to Alan. Alan may correct me if I'm wrong. He had offers of donations up to $500 or more, but lots of smaller donations, everyone giving what they could. People are looking into help from foundations for him. There's also one trying to see if he could purchase the home and have Alan as a permanent tenant. Some have given Alan words of comfort so that he does not feel alone. Those are the efforts on the lists. People can offer and do things, and it did not kill them or put them in the poor house. In each of us is the giving and the selfish side. In our heart, we want to give, and then immediately we say, "Gosh, I could have used it." In fact, sometimes the more we have, the more we're afraid to lose it, and the more we forget that there are less fortunate souls. This results from "clinging." Giving doesn't hurt so much if you don't cling, and can actually feel good. If you have ever been on the recipient's end, you know that receiving kindness from others is the best salve for the wound. No one is judging you if you can't afford to help. You do not need to make judgment and comparisons against Alan, and others who support him to justify that. You are a familiar figure enough on this list that if you were to become disabled, lose your job, and kicked out of your home, I would be among those who would try to help you. No need to fear, Paul. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 07:11:40 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Krishnamurti Lectures Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980706071140.00964b70@mail.eden.com> Here is something interesting from Krishnamurti Foundation Website: "In response to requests that we present extensive passages from Krishnamurti's talks on the internet, we offer the following 6 talks given by Krishnamurti in 1958." Anyone interested may want to visit: http://www.kfa.org/poona58.html mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 02:45:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Help Message-ID: <2$ZQ0aA$kYn1EwRE@nellie2.demon.co.uk> K. Zaitzev writes >Anyway, whether we haven't received the message or missed it by our own >lack of care, it's your bad karma, Alan :() My reply is in the testicular. I wish you all you wish me. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 03:42:23 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Tenancy Message-ID: Dear list members, What is difficult for many people to understand, especially in the USA, is that UK tenancy laws have reverted to an archaic method that is almost unbelievable in this day and age. The *only* kind of protection for *any* UK tenant is what is called (shades of Orwell) "An Assured Shorthold Tenancy." What this "assurance" amounts to is that no one can be given notice before the minimum "assurance" of *six months* has been completed. After that, landlords - including public housing authorities - can give tenants two month's notice, at the end of which, if the tenant has not gone, they can apply to a court who will give the tenant another two weeks. After that - eviction, whether the tenant has anywhere to go or not. It *is* possible to negotiate a longer minimum period, but very few landlords (though mine did) will promise more than a year. I have been here just over a year and a half, and could be given notice *any time* the landlord feels like it, with no redress. The house is up for sale. Sooner or later the landlord may likely decide that viewers of the property might be put off by finding a sitting tenant in the place. If so - then zap, we're out of here. I have made applications to all of the possible bodies that offer rented accomodation, both public and private, with medical and welfare backing for two *disabled* people sharing. There is a little hope, but not in the short term. This isn't "karma" - it's large scale hardness of heart to the plight of the poor and needy, backed by government laws. Alan. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:14:43 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: 110 Message-ID: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL welcomes Salina Chan! Personal welcomes to: chan_ng@hotmail.com Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:12:53 +0400 From: "K. Zaitzev" Subject: re: Help Message-ID: <199807030712.LAA14000@idg.chph.ras.ru> Hello Bart & Alan! > In general, I go through my email very quickly, and figured that I must > have missed your request. I just looked through all the messages with I also haven't seen it. While checking theos-l archive for 2 recent months I've found that digest 1528 is missing (it should be approx. May 15th). Anyway, whether we haven't received the message or missed it by our own lack of care, it's your bad karma, Alan :() From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:48:11 +0400 From: "K. Zaitzev" Subject: re: Help Message Message-ID: <199807031348.RAA17545@idg.chph.ras.ru> On 26 Jun 1998 Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > I need to raise approx. (US) $130,000 Oh, it's incredible sum. I think one cannot obtain it legal way. :( From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 10:01:11 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: "Brotherhood" Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980703100111.01160140@mail.eden.com> At 07:04 PM 7/2/1998 -0400, you wrote: > >We would often congregate in an inexpensive London restaurant, and >so this was her first port of call. One member was in there, a young >man - we were all so young! - and she, having nowhere to stay for the >night, and no money to speak of, asked him for help. Without >hesitation, having heard her tale, he have her the key to his one-room >apartment and six shillings for a taxi and food. > >Unbeknown to her, it was his last six shillings, and he had nowhere else >to stay for the night. Later, some of the other members found him sitting >in the restaurant, and made sure he had enough to eat, and money to >keep himself going. Sadly, no one available at the time was in a position >to put him up, and he slept on the streets for three nights, by which time >the young woman in question had been able to make arrangements. > >As he saw it, her needs were greater than his, so he applied the rule, >and those who found him later did the same. > >Now, in 1998, she is dead, but her two daughters are still alive with >children of their own, and I speak to them often. Sometimes they come >to stay, and there is a great bond between us. > >That, theosophists of all colors, is what we called "brotherhood" and still >do. Quite a few of the members of that long-ago group are now either >dead, or have moved on without trace. The few of us that are still in >touch would, if called, respond at the drop of a hat, as they say, and >over the years, this has happened more than once. > >Just for the record. > >Alan Bain Actions speak louder than any head learning and IMHO is more important than knowing all the intricate details of theosophical doctrines. Such sacrifice as you described that you rarely see. There was a similar situation I was aware of. A young lady who had just been released from the hospital after childbirth did not have any place to go but her mother's. When she showed up at the door of the mother, she and the newborn were refused accommodation by the mother. Then she sought the help of a young man she had known her and even though he was single did put her up and the child for a couple of days till she could find a permanent home. Though she was not a card carrying theosophist, even to this day -- after 22 years -- she is ever grateful for the kindness shown by the young man. Also she is really helpful to anyone in need. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:21:18 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: "Brotherhood" Message-ID: Dear all, Way back in 1957-9 I began a small group (about 30 people max) with a view to studying, investigating, and practicing the occult virtues, mainly by way of Kabbalah, or Qabalah as we called it then, this being by that time my specialist area (which it still is). We called it simply, "The Group." I am sure some of you have been there :-) Students had two mandatory books to *purchase* and *study*. This was to ensure that only serious students came in, as no fees were charged. The two books were, "The Mystical Qabalah" by Dion Fortune, and "First Princiles of Theosophy" by C. Jinarajadasa. They all dreaded the latter owing to its complexity (!) but did as they were asked. The reason was simply that without an understanding of the standard theosophical ideas of the time, students would never properly grasp the later intricacies of Kabbalah, nor would they be able to use it to the full, especially in its ability to act as a means of comparing different "occult" systems. Comparitive theosophy if you like. Above all things, however, we held what theosophy calls the first object as the most important. Having a Christian bias at that time, this was expressed as "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" - also, of course, an antecedent law of Judaism. On the practical level of group working, we all tried to apply this to the best of our ability in our daily lives, for without doing this, the entire study was pointless. One day one of the group members discharged herself from hospital very shortly after having given birth to her second child - she still had stitches in. Her husband had been arrested and charged with defrauding the Post Office (which he had done and went to jail for). She wanted to do her utmost to help him by rasing bail from her family (which she did, but he didn't accept). We would often congregate in an inexpensive London restaurant, and so this was her first port of call. One member was in there, a young man - we were all so young! - and she, having nowhere to stay for the night, and no money to speak of, asked him for help. Without hesitation, having heard her tale, he have her the key to his one-room apartment and six shillings for a taxi and food. Unbeknown to her, it was his last six shillings, and he had nowhere else to stay for the night. Later, some of the other members found him sitting in the restaurant, and made sure he had enough to eat, and money to keep himself going. Sadly, no one available at the time was in a position to put him up, and he slept on the streets for three nights, by which time the young woman in question had been able to make arrangements. As he saw it, her needs were greater than his, so he applied the rule, and those who found him later did the same. Now, in 1998, she is dead, but her two daughters are still alive with children of their own, and I speak to them often. Sometimes they come to stay, and there is a great bond between us. That, theosophists of all colors, is what we called "brotherhood" and still do. Quite a few of the members of that long-ago group are now either dead, or have moved on without trace. The few of us that are still in touch would, if called, respond at the drop of a hat, as they say, and over the years, this has happened more than once. Just for the record. Alan Bain Brought to you from West Cornwall, UK From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:06:04 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Help Message from Alan Bain Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980630220604.012317b0@mail.eden.com> Here is the msg that Alan was refering to. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:25:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Help Urgently Needed Dear all, My apologies for cross-posting this e-mail, but I have no other way of getting this message through to the maximum number of people. I need to raise approx. (US) $130,000 or UKP 80,000 which could save a life, or a death - however one looks at it. This is not the place to go into details, but if anyone feels they can help in whole or in part, please e-mail me privately, and I will send the details to the sender(s) by return. In fellowship, Alan -- Dr. A.M.Bain From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 13:32:30 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye Subject: FOHAT Editorial concerning the Holocaust Message-ID: <359A9CDE.6465@azstarnet.com> [ROUGH DRAFT] Dear Editorial staff of FOHAT [a quarterly publication of the Edmonton Theosophical Society, Canada]: In the latest (Summer 1998) issue of your magazine, I read with interest the "Editorial" column. The main theme appears to be given in the title of the editorial: "Truth [about the Holocaust] Needs no Laws to Protect it." The editor goes on to say that "people need not make up their own minds any more, the establishment is happy to legislate their thoughts for them." Most theosophical students would probably agree with this general statement. To illustrate this point, the editor writes about "David Irving, the distinguished British historian on World War II. . . . This painstaking researcher. . . decided to do research on the topic of German concentration camps. . . . He discovered that physical evidence at the camps and the archival evidence that he examined ran CONTRARY to POPULAR conceptions on the holocaust. Now David Irving could have ignored his findings and left the whole matter alone; instead he published what he found in book form. . . . David Irving's research and evidence for his thesis are readily accessible through his book. Any historian of note need only look at Dr. Irving's research and then demonstrate how he erred in his conclusions and the whole matter would have been put to rest. After all, if Dr. Irving was wrong, historians should have all of the evidence of truth on their side. The light of truth has a way of making the shadowy clear. Instead of dispelling Dr. Irving's thesis, Dr. Irving has been banned from speaking in many countries, he has been arrested and tried in Germany. In fact, new laws in Germany have been instituted making it illegal to deny the holocaust. . . Through all of this, few if any of Dr. Irving's professional colleagues have come to his defence or tried to dispel what he says. Instead of shedding light on the debate there has been every effort to push the whole matter further into the shadows. Dr. Irving is not the only individual to suffer this fate. . . . This whole matter begs the question as to why the leaders of a nation [Germany] saddled with this terrible and heinous crime would want to legislate a version of history that MAY NOT have a foundation, especially at the cost of billions of dollars annually in reparation payments to the state of Israel. Why are nations all over the world intent on legislating the official version of the holocaust?. . . ." CAPS ADDED. I certainly deplore the attempts to ban Dr. Irving from speaking out and giving his views on the Holocaust. Nothing of a positive nature is achieved by pushing "the whole matter further into the shadows." But having said that, what else is the editor attempting to convey in his words which I have partially quoted above? Does the editor himself deny the holocaust? Does he agree with David Irving that the "physical evidence at the [German concentration] camps" and "the archival evidence" run "contrary to popular conceptions on the holocaust"? Furthermore, is the editor of FOHAT attempting to convey the impression that no historian has demonstrated how Irving erred in his conclusions? Although it may not have been the intent of the editor, I find this editorial slanted and one-sided. Unfortunately, the title of David Irving's book is not even given in the editorial! The title is: Hitler's War. For readers of FOHAT interested in the OTHER side NOT given in FOHAT'S editorial, one should consult: David Irving's Hitler : A Faulty History Dissected by Eberhard Jackel, H. David Kirk (Translator) Paperback (August 1993) Ben-Simon Pubns; ISBN: 0914539086 Available from Amazon.com for $5.95 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0914539086/002-3558440-6137612 There is a Web copy of Dr. Jackel's analysis at: http://www.nizkor.netizen.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/jackel/ For more background on David Irving, please consult: Lipstadt, Deborah E. Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory. New York: The Free Press (A division of Macmillan, Inc.), 1993. "In this first full-scale history of Holocaust denial, Lipstadt shows how, despite tens of thousands of living witnesses and vast amounts of documentary evidence, this irrational idea has not only continued to gain adherents but has become an internationally organized movement. Dr. Lipstadt writes about Irving in the following terms: "Irving is one of the most dangerous spokespersons for Holocaust denial. Familiar with historical evidence, he bends it until it conforms with his ideological leanings and political agenda. A man who is convinced that Britain's great decline was accelerated by its decision to go to war with Germany, he is most facile at taking accurate information and shaping it to conform to his conclusions. A review of his recent book, `Churchill's War,` which appeared in the 'New York Review of Books,' accurately analyzed his practice of applying a double standard to evidence. He demands 'absolute documentary proof' when it comes to proving the Germans guilty, but he relies on highly circumstantial evidence to condemn the Allies. This is an accurate description not only of Irving's tactics, but of those of deniers in general." (Lipstadt, 179-181) What have OTHER professional historians had to say about Irving's work? Consult: http://www.nizkor.netizen.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/reviews/ Other background material on Dr. Irving can be found on the WWW at: http://www.nizkor.netizen.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/ The Holocaust Deniers have their own site on the Internet and you can consult their biographical sketch of Dr. Irving at: http://www.ihr.org/bios/irving.html For other books on the Holocaust Deniers, see: Assassins of Memory: Essays on the Denial of the Holocaust by Jeffrey Pierre Vidal-Naquet Hardcover, 205pp. ISBN: 0231074581 Columbia University Press, Jan. 1993 Available at The Barnes and Noble Bookstore Website. See: http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5UEW113N8K&mscssid=6HJ7RDRW2GS12K5300L1RN6PL6P6M4LN&isbn=0231074581 This Barnes & Noble web page contains reviews of Dr. Vidal-Naquet's book. For example, David Singer writes in THE NEW LEADER: "The Holocaust deniers have presented themselves as 'revisionists' engaged in the standard process of re-examining the historical record; they carefully drape their writings with footnotes, bibliographies, etc. . . . Since this bogus scholarship has gained the greatest currency in France, it is perhaps not surprising that another book unmasking the ugly enterprise has come from there. Originally published in the French in 1987, it is the work of no less distinguished a figure than Pierre Vidal-Naquet, the renowned historian of the ancient world, who entered the fray against those he dubs the 'assassins of memory' almost a decade and a half ago. . . ." Other good books on Holcaust Denial are: Holocaust Denial by Kenneth S. Stern. New York: American Jewish Committee, 1993. Softcover. 193 pages. Notes. Index. $12.95. ISBN: 0-87495-102-X.; Hitler's Apologists: The Anti-Semitic Propaganda of Holocaust "Revisionism" edited by Alan M. Schwartz. New York: The Anti-Defamation League, 1993. Softcover. 86 pages. Notes. WEB SITES........................................................ Visit the premier site *advocating* Holocaust Denial: Institute for Historical Review http://www.ihr.org/index.html This Institute has a series of leaflets on the WWW covering a number of subjects: http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/leaflets.html Below I give a list of these leaflets. I highlight with asterisks FOUR of the leaflets and list their URLs. A Few Facts About the IHR The 'Problem of the Gas Chambers' *** Auschwitz myths and facts: http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.html *** Let's examine the Holocaust from all sides http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/bothsides.html *** The Liberation of the Camps http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/liberationofthecamps.html What is 'Holocaust Denial'? Inside the Auschwitz 'Gas Chambers' ***Sixty-Six Questions and Answers about the Holocaust http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/66questions.html The 'Jewish soap' myth The US Holocaust Memorial Museum Simon Wiesenthal: Bogus Nazi Hunter A Prominent False Witness: Elie Wiesel *** Now visit the site of the NIZKOR PROJECT at: http://www.nizkor.org/ This site is "Dedicated to the nearly twelve million victims ruthlessly destroyed by Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime." This WWW site provides *detailed refutations* to the above Institute for Historical Review's leaflet "Sixty-Six Questions and Answers about the Holocaust." The rebuttal is titled: A Reply to the IHR/Zündel's "66 Q&A" See http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/ ******Other important refutations are to be found at the Nizkor Project site. See: http://www.nizkor.org/features/ Also read Nizkor Project's FAQs http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/ on: Auschwitz An introduction to the most infamous Nazi death camp. Aktion Reinhard An introduction to the "Operation Reinhard" death camps: Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. The Institute for Historical Review The Institute for Historical Review has been the "premier" source of Holocaust-denial literature for almost twenty years. Fred Leuchter & the The Leuchter Report Fred Leuchter is the author of the so-called "Leuchter Report," a pseudo-scientific examination of Nazi killing facilities, principally those in Auschwitz. ********************************************** I hope some of the above will give interested FOHAT readers food for thought on this subject. As a student of history, I believe that the reality of the Holocaust is documented with a tremendous amount of evidence. There is probably no other series of historical events with as much cumulative evidence: (1) evidence from Nazis and German archives; (2) evidence from the survivors of the death camps; (3) evidence found at the death camps; (4) evidence from the Allied forces; (5) reams of evidence in the possession of the United States government. Etc. If this impressive amount of evidence can be denied and "explained away", then I would suggest to the editorial staff of FOHAT that one could (with even greater ease) "explain away" the evidence supporting the claims of Madame Blavatsky, the reality of her psychic phenomena, the flesh and blood reality of her Mahatmas, etc., etc. Let not the deceptive words of David Irving and other "holocaust deniers" blind us to the awful truth that Hitler and his henchmen brutally murdered millions of innocent men, women and children in the death camps. HOPING that I have possibly read TOO MUCH into the editorial appearing in the Summer 1998 issue of FOHAT, I close this long email. Daniel H. Caldwell blafoun@azstarnet.com