From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:56:03 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Use of Drugs and the free market Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-28 14:30:34 EDT, you write: >If you're enjoying any of those, you're enjoying the benefits of laws and >regulations. > >Thoa :o) > > > None of those things is worth the loss of one iota of freedom. My home doesn't fall down because I own it and maintain it. If someone tries to rob or injure me, I simply shoot him and dump the body in the dearest river. All law is is organized force. A group of scumbags buy enough votes to get elected and then think they can tell everyone else how to live because they have had, up to now, a monopoly on the use of force. But, suppose that monopoly ceases to exist? Suppose law becomes impossible because enforcement becomes suicidal? Stick around! The fun is just beginning! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:54:12 +0900 From: Darren Subject: SOMA and Y DNA? Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980429115412.006f31a8@ozemail.com.au> This world is half the devils and my own Daft with the drug that's smoking in a girl And curling round the bud that forks her eye An old man's shank one marrowed with my bone And all the herrings smelling in the sea I sit and watch the worm beneath my nail Wearing the quick away - Dylan Thomas In the continuing drug debate I would like to point out that we should not heap all drugs into one basket. Obviously we have hallucinogens, narcotics, anelgesics, psychadelics, barbituates etc etc but the main distinction I think should be discussed is synthetic vs natural. In the natural group we have Cannabis Sativa, Psilocybin Cubensis, Amanita Muscara, Peyote etc etc How can we say that any plant is illegitimate. That is to say in the great scheme of things a natural creation is against mans law. To me this is patently absurd. Perhaps synthetic drugs should be controlled - but they should still be able for therapy sessions in controlled settings. All the negative views of drugs from people on this list seem to revolve around drug dependency. From my own personal experience I can say this seems to be mainly from Opiates - drug addiction is far worse with nicotine and alcohol than marijuana (see recent WHO report on cannabis if you doubt this). How is it that indigineous peoples seem to integrate drug use into their cultures with little friction. The Amazonian tribes live in harmony with the jungle and they use psychadelic snuff's almost daily. To subvert the indiviuals rights in favour of the greater good of the community is a declaration of fear. I'm so afraid of what my neighbours might do to me etc etc Like DEATH said in Monty Pythons Meaning of Life - " You Americans make me sick, all you do is talk - let me tell ya this and I gotta tell you that" - Just remember America has a big collective Karmic debt coming soon. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD - TUNE IN TURN ON AND DROP OUT THE ALMIGHTY NOS Bodhisattva of Sarcasm * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:03:40 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Women on Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980429060340.0098be80@mail.eden.com> Here is a quote from the daily newsletter from Jesse Berst today: "Sounds like a chauvinist pig headline. Yet many men think the Internet is still predominantly male. Guess what guys? Women will soon be more numerous than men on the Internet. And they're already changing the way we use the Web. Discreetly -- and powerfully." mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:28:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: SOMA and Y DNA? Message-ID: <19980429122834.4604.rocketmail@send1d.yahoomail.com> ---Darren wrote: > How can we say that any plant is illegitimate. That is to say in the great > scheme of things a natural creation is against mans law. To me this is > patently absurd. Perhaps synthetic drugs should be controlled - but they > should still be able for therapy sessions in controlled settings. Whether plant or synthetic, they still have the same physical effects on the brain. (With the exception of dissociatives) > All the negative views of drugs from people on this list seem to revolve > around drug dependency. From my own personal experience I can say this > seems to be mainly from Opiates - drug addiction is far worse with nicotine > and alcohol than marijuana (see recent WHO report on cannabis if you doubt > this). This is true, but I can't say that cigarettes and liquor are going to help anyone's spiritual evolution either. > How is it that indigineous peoples seem to integrate drug use into their > cultures with little friction. The Amazonian tribes live in harmony with > the jungle and they use psychadelic snuff's almost daily. There is quite a bit of difference in the lifestyle of indigineous tribes and Capitalist countries. If everyone in today's technologically advanced societies ingested a daily dose of 'psychadelic snuff's', we'd find ourselves in chaos <--(Chuckie's world). The culture is different. That is the reason why there is little friction. And just because it is a culturally accepted principle does not mean that it is not harmful both to body and soul. > To subvert the indiviuals rights in favour of the greater good of the > community is a declaration of fear. I'm so afraid of what my neighbours > might do to me etc etc I'm not sure I agree with this. I was a supporter of the "law" which surpassed the child molester's right of privacy. If there were child molesters living in my community, I would want to know what they looked like and where they lived so I could tell my kids to stay away from them. With respect to drugs, I wouldn't want my next door neighbor to have a bad trip one day and destroy myself and/or my property. Because drugs have the 'potential' to cause very dangerous side-effects, (even marijuana can cause a person to flip out and do things s/he normally wouldn't which could be dangerous to "innocent" people), they should be restricted. Why should the community have to live in fear? It is true that many laws have been created as a 'declaration of fear', but so what? I would rather be confident knowing that most people will not do anything to harm me then be cowed by paranoia that anyone could do anything they wanted and get away with it. > Like DEATH said in Monty Pythons Meaning of Life - " You Americans make me > sick, all you do is talk - let me tell ya this and I gotta tell you that" - > Just remember America has a big collective Karmic debt coming soon. > THE ALMIGHTY NOS > Bodhisattva of Sarcasm I have one question. Do you know what chemicals, any chemicals, do to the brain on a cellular level? It isn't pretty, especially with regard to certain drugs, and there really is no argument as to whether or not they are harmful to the nervous system. They are. If you get a high, you are manipulating the synaptic structures in your brain, and this, especially after extended use of a particular chemical, can become permanent. The only drugs that I know of that do not do this are dissociatives (PCP, Ketamine). They more or less just block off synaptic receptors. And as far as we Americans go, I don't think we have any more to worry about than anyone else. We only have 200 years of Karma to pay off. Most other countries have a thousand or more...:) --- Jaqi. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:32:19 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Women on Internet Message-ID: <9d5d9fa5.35476425@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-29 07:18:38 EDT, you write: > And they're already changing > the way we use the Web. Discreetly -- and powerfully." > > No they aren't. We just ignore them. Chuck the Heretic couldn't resist this one. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:36:34 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Feeling Old? and a note to Jaqi and Chuckie Message-ID: Since I have some personal things I have to take care of, I'm going to post this joke. Considering the obvious generational strain within the theosophical societies, I thought this would put things in perspective. BTW, I like your post on drugs, Jaqi. And Chuckie, instead of arguing with you, I'm going to drag my paranoid self to the voting booth. So, thpppppffffttttt...(so much less energy this way!) :o) Thoa :o) ******* Are you feeling old? If not, consider this: The people who are starting college this fall across the nation were born in 1980. They have no meaningful recollection of the Reagan era. They were prepubescent when the Persian Gulf War was waged. Black Monday 1987 is as significant to them as the Great Depression. Their lifetime has always included AIDS. Atari predates them, as do vinyl albums. The expression "you sound like a broken record" means nothing to them. They may have heard of an 8 track, but chances are they probably have never actually seen or heard one. The digital Disc was introduced when they were 1 year old. As far as they know, stamps have always cost about 32 cents. They have always had an answering machine. Most have never seen a TV set with only 13 channels. They were born the year that Walkmen were introduced by Sony. They have no idea when or why Jordache jeans were cool. They never took a swim and thought about Jaws. They have no idea what "and my name, is Charlie. They work for me." means. They don't know that "8-6-7-5-3-0-9" is Jenny's phone number. They don't know who Mork was or where he was from. They never heard the term "Where's the beef?" "Grease" is an old film classic and so is the Star Wars trilogy. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:39:27 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: what an interesting state some of our members are in Message-ID: <6a1c728.354765d0@aol.com> got this off the news wire. Now we can really worry about JRC Chuck the Heretic BOZEMAN, Mont. (AP) - A man is suing a weekly newspaper and the court system for libel after a computer glitch transformed a report of a traffic ticket into a conviction for deviate sexual conduct. ``I've heard every sheep joke you can imagine,'' Cody Johnston, 22, said Tuesday. Johnston is seeking unspecified damages. Johnston said he learned of the mistake from his parents, who read it in the High Country Independent Press. He said he told them it wasn't true, but they, his wife and his sister concluded he was in denial, and urged him to seek treatment. ``It was bad,'' Johnston said. ``You can imagine what was going through their minds, and of course, they didn't believe me.'' Johnston had been fined $195 for a commercial trucking weight violation. But the list given to the newspaper contained the sex charge, which covers homosexual acts and bestiality. Independent Press editor Devon Hubbard Sorlie said that the mistake was unfortunate and that the weekly promptly ran a prominent correction when Johnston's father pointed out the error. But Johnston contends the newspaper and the Gallatin County Justice Court had a duty to check the material for accuracy. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:49:26 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Women on Internet Message-ID: >In a message dated 98-04-29 07:18:38 EDT, you write: > >> And they're already changing >> the way we use the Web. Discreetly -- and powerfully." >> >> > >No they aren't. We just ignore them. > >Chuck the Heretic > >couldn't resist this one. The ignorant does not need to ignore. This reminds me of what Diane Sawyer said after announcing on the news that men have more brain cells than women, "Which leads me to the question, What did they do with them?" I would think it would have something to do with sheeps. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:04:30 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Feeling Old? and a note to Jaqi and Chuckie Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-29 13:53:37 EDT, you write: > why Jordache jeans were cool. Hell, I could never figure that one out myself. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 01:51:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: SOMA and Y DNA? Message-ID: <7rLTROAss8R1EwhU@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Jaqtarin Triele writes >And as far as we Americans go, I don't think we have any more to worry >about than anyone else. We only have 200 years of Karma to pay off. >Most other countries have a thousand or more...:) But you all have ancestors from other countries, so the first "Americans" (as distinct from "Native Americans") have left you all with as much karma as anyone else who has karma. Alan (UK) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 02:13:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophical Movement Message-ID: Pam Giese writes >As a community, we do a poor job marketing TS on the web. We're missing >an >opportunity. The potential is there. As Dallas(nodding to Mark) says: >Theosophy International -- or "withoutwalls" perhaps As you may have seen, the "Theosophy International" website has links to *some* other TS orgs, including Theosophical University Press (part of Pasadena TS). It is there because they publish source texts online, a service we all need. I suggested to them that we operate a mutual weblink to each others' sites. I was informed that there was "no need" for this. Oy Veh! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:28:48 +0900 From: Darren Subject: [ADRAVE-OZ] [AR] [Ratbag] Drugz and stuff (fwd) Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980430112848.006ddd2c@ozemail.com.au> >> >>>Mia >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------- >>>Legal drugs kill 20 times more Americans >>>than illegal drugs, says embarrassing new study >>> >>> WASHINGTON, DC -- Doctors kill far more people every year than >>>drug pushers do -- a surprising fact that should make sensible >>>Americans start to question the War on Drugs, the Libertarian Party >>>said today. >>> >>> Last week, the New England Journal of Medicine reported that >>>properly prescribed legal drugs kill 106,000 Americans every year -- 20 >>>times more than illegal drugs do. >>> >>> "Are politicians going to declare a War on Medicine?" asked >>>Steve Dasbach, Libertarian Party chairman. "Of course not. So why are >>>we spending $17 billion on the War on Drugs, arresting millions of >>>people, and restricting civil liberties -- all to try to solve a >>>problem that's far less dangerous than modern medicine?" >>> >>> The study found that correctly prescribed medications claim >>>106,000 lives a year because of toxic reactions. By comparison, only >>>5,212 Americans die annually from illegal drugs like heroin and >>>cocaine, according to the U.S. Substance Abuse and Mental Health >>>Administration. >>> >>> "This means that doctor-prescribed drugs kill 20 times more >>>people every year than drugs peddled on street corners," said Dasbach. >>>"Of course, more people take prescription medication than illegal >>>drugs, so higher death totals are expected. But the point is that the >>>health consequences of illegal drugs are vastly overstated by >>>politicians -- apparently to justify the costly government program they >>>call the War on Drugs." >>> >>> In fact, Dasbach pointed out, the government admits that >>>aspirin killed twice as many people last year as PCP and LSD combined! >>> >>> "But don't expect a War on Aspirin," Dasbach said. "The >>>government is less interested in protecting lives than in protecting >>>the jobs of the government bureaucrats and law enforcement personnel >>>who are on the Drug Prohibition payroll. >>> >>> "For example, marijuana has caused no deaths, yet the >>>government arrested 641,642 Americans last year on marijuana-related >>>offenses, and is threatening to prosecute doctors who prescribe >>>marijuana for victims of AIDS and cancer," he noted. >>> >>> The fact is, the real health threat comes not from drugs, but >>>from drug prohibition, Dasbach said. >>> >>> "As Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman says, 5,000 >>>Americans are killed every year solely due to Prohibition-spawned >>>violence -- meaning that outlawing drugs kills as many Americans every >>>year as the drugs themselves," he said. >>> >>> Dasbach emphasized that the Libertarian Party doesn't condone >>>drug use. >>> >>> "Too many lives have been ruined by drugs, whether legal or >>>illegal -- and we mourn a lost life, no matter what the cause," he >>>said. "But when the government arbitrarily decides which drugs to >>>outlaw, it transforms a personal tragedy into a national disaster and >>>turns a medical problem into a moral crusade. >>> >>> "Politicians who focus obsessively on the drug war -- while >>>ignoring the fact that other medical problems are far more deadly -- >>>have lost their grip on reality. As this new study makes clear, the War >>>on Drugs has more to do with political posturing than with public >>>health -- and that's why it's time to end it." >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Ausrave mailing list. To unsubscribe send mail to >> >>pax >>si >> >>Happiness is not a destination, its a way of travelling. >> >> > > > * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:31:00 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: [ADRAVE-OZ] [AR] [Ratbag] Drugz and stuff (fwd) Message-ID: When you compare the number of people taking prescribed legal drugs, their health status (if they're healthy, they wouldn't have to go to the doctor), etc., to the number of people taking illegal drugs, I'd say there's tricky statistics going on. Have you ever read a book on how statistics can be manipulated to support one's point of view? Someone on theos-l (Bart?) posted a nonsensical statistical data that was manipulated to state that eating a common food (tomato? carrot?) will cause death. Thoa :o) >>> >>>>Mia >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------- >>>>Legal drugs kill 20 times more Americans >>>>than illegal drugs, says embarrassing new study >>>> >>>> WASHINGTON, DC -- Doctors kill far more people every year than >>>>drug pushers do -- a surprising fact that should make sensible >>>>Americans start to question the War on Drugs, the Libertarian Party >>>>said today. >>>> >>>> Last week, the New England Journal of Medicine reported that >>>>properly prescribed legal drugs kill 106,000 Americans every year -- 20 >>>>times more than illegal drugs do. >>>> >>>> "Are politicians going to declare a War on Medicine?" asked >>>>Steve Dasbach, Libertarian Party chairman. "Of course not. So why are >>>>we spending $17 billion on the War on Drugs, arresting millions of >>>>people, and restricting civil liberties -- all to try to solve a >>>>problem that's far less dangerous than modern medicine?" >>>> >>>> The study found that correctly prescribed medications claim >>>>106,000 lives a year because of toxic reactions. By comparison, only >>>>5,212 Americans die annually from illegal drugs like heroin and >>>>cocaine, according to the U.S. Substance Abuse and Mental Health >>>>Administration. >>>> >>>> "This means that doctor-prescribed drugs kill 20 times more >>>>people every year than drugs peddled on street corners," said Dasbach. >>>>"Of course, more people take prescription medication than illegal >>>>drugs, so higher death totals are expected. But the point is that the >>>>health consequences of illegal drugs are vastly overstated by >>>>politicians -- apparently to justify the costly government program they >>>>call the War on Drugs." >>>> >>>> In fact, Dasbach pointed out, the government admits that >>>>aspirin killed twice as many people last year as PCP and LSD combined! >>>> >>>> "But don't expect a War on Aspirin," Dasbach said. "The >>>>government is less interested in protecting lives than in protecting >>>>the jobs of the government bureaucrats and law enforcement personnel >>>>who are on the Drug Prohibition payroll. >>>> >>>> "For example, marijuana has caused no deaths, yet the >>>>government arrested 641,642 Americans last year on marijuana-related >>>>offenses, and is threatening to prosecute doctors who prescribe >>>>marijuana for victims of AIDS and cancer," he noted. >>>> >>>> The fact is, the real health threat comes not from drugs, but >>>>from drug prohibition, Dasbach said. >>>> >>>> "As Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman says, 5,000 >>>>Americans are killed every year solely due to Prohibition-spawned >>>>violence -- meaning that outlawing drugs kills as many Americans every >>>>year as the drugs themselves," he said. >>>> >>>> Dasbach emphasized that the Libertarian Party doesn't condone >>>>drug use. >>>> >>>> "Too many lives have been ruined by drugs, whether legal or >>>>illegal -- and we mourn a lost life, no matter what the cause," he >>>>said. "But when the government arbitrarily decides which drugs to >>>>outlaw, it transforms a personal tragedy into a national disaster and >>>>turns a medical problem into a moral crusade. >>>> >>>> "Politicians who focus obsessively on the drug war -- while >>>>ignoring the fact that other medical problems are far more deadly -- >>>>have lost their grip on reality. As this new study makes clear, the War >>>>on Drugs has more to do with political posturing than with public >>>>health -- and that's why it's time to end it." >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Ausrave mailing list. To unsubscribe send mail to >>> >>>pax >>>si >>> >>>Happiness is not a destination, its a way of travelling. >>> >>> >> >> >> >* Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: >http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or,* Send me >E-mail Express directly to my computer screen >2678258@pager.mirabilis.comFor downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/For >adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: >http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:21:01 +0400 From: "K. Zaitzev" Subject: Forming_a_study_center Message-ID: <199804300821.MAA03141@idg.chph.ras.ru> Forming a study center or branch Hello! MKR> I will mail you the e-mail address. Thanks, I've received it. MKR> there is a provision in the Rules of TS, by which one could directly MKR> be attached to Adyar without any intermediary organization. Yes, I know that & all the members here are the unattached members. MKR> Also what advantages you are all expecting by forming a or study MKR> center or branch? Lodges, as i understood, have a self-ruling status. Yet our unattached members cannot act from the name of TS. For example, registering as a public organization gives much advantages. Russian laws don't prohibit us to create an organization, call it "Theosophical society" and re- gister as non-commercial organization but our members say it won't be proper behaviour from TS's point of view. Still we have no official status all the activity is paralized. We can't have our bank account, etc. All that we do is meeting each week in a library because the director of library kindly permitted us to do it. The second big problem is publishing. The russian translations are made but they can't be printed. TS can't permit publishing because it is not sure that the translations are of appropriate quality. It seems to me that most of these problems are artificial and coudn't arise at all if we had a national section. And... my friend writes me about books: "The American Theosophical Society - I sent you their ad a while ago - do have 40% discounts, but *for Theosophical Study Centers*." :) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:22:24 +0400 From: "K. Zaitzev" Subject: Energy_n_emptiness Message-ID: <199804300822.MAA03168@idg.chph.ras.ru> Emptyness, energy & ether Hello Thoa & Julien! j>Please clarify how energy and emptiness are related. C.W. Leadbeater, the great & terrible, illustrated it good in "Occult Chemistry" (p. 21 in 1919 edition)
"The atom can scarcely be said to be a "thing", though it is tha material out of which all things physical are composed. It is formed by the flow of the life-force and vanishes with its ebb. When this force arises in "space"* - the apparent void which must be filled with substance of some kind, of inconceivable tenuity - atoms appear; if this be artificially stopped for a single atom, the atom disappars; there is nothing left. Presumably, were that flow checked but for an instant, the whole physical world would vanish, as a cloud melts away in the empyrean. It is only the persistence of that flow which maintains the physical basis of the universe. _________ * When Fohat "digs holes in space"."
Many people like to say that nature of things is emptyness, but they normally don't try to underatans what it really means. Though nature of things is emptyness, nature of akasha isn't emptiness, but the energy creates emptiness in akasha and thus creates the things. Some scientists defined the physical vacuum as "superdense degenerated media". Th> called "ether." Ether, as science has defined it, does not exist. It is not exactly so. It would be more correct to say that "science has defined that ether does not exist" ;) For Einstein it was simply unnecessary hypothesis, like god for Laplace. And moreover, Einstein kept that opinion not more than 10-15 years. Yet in 1920's he wrote: "Corresponding the general relativity theory, the space is inconceivable without ether" (Ether & relativity theory, 1920) "We cannot in theoretical physics to handle without ether, i.e. continuum provided with physical characteristics" (On ether, 1924) (of course it's in reverse translation form russian.) Here in Russia several scientists are continuing to develop theories of ether. Some of them derived equations known as "quantum" & "relativistic" assuming an ether to be a gaseous meduim and remaining on the classical "Newtonian" basis. Leadbeater wrote that an ether has its pressure and it is inconceivably high, Aciukovsky in 1980's has calculated it to be 10^29 atmospheres. He makes relativity obsolete, deriving everything on mechanical basis. I can post a short sketch of his main work, "Ether- dynamics", if someone's interesting in it. So, we still cannot say that science has acknowldged an ether yet, but we already can say that there's no unified opinion. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:23:01 +0400 From: "K. Zaitzev" Subject: Sex_and_spirituality Message-ID: <199804300823.MAA03176@idg.chph.ras.ru> Sex and Spirituality Hello! Mon, 27 Apr 1998 M K Ramadoss wrote: R> (Leadbeater)Theosophy (and ES)followers are firm believers in the "theory" R> that with sex you cannot progress spiritually, in spite of all the It isn't Leadbeater's invention. Blavatsky wrote that "in practical occultism all sexual contacts are prohibited". But most of so called followers, as Bailey, Roerich, Prophet, Lomborg - were all married. They & their followers say that now times has changed & sex is allowed now. R> undisputed allegations about Leadbeater on sex matters. (Some Leadbeater R> followers try to clear him by saying that he was never convicted and R> hence in "our" system of justice, a man is innocent until proven guilty.) In "Letters of masters of wisdom" vol.I K.H. warns Leadbeater that because he is a priest, he may yield karma of that "caste". So it makes me suspect that convictions against Leadbeater could be false, as those made by other priests against Blavatsky. R> However, to the surprise and shock of traditionalists, Krishnaji R> propounded a totally revolutionary viewpoint on this important issue. It isn't revolutionary. This viewpoint existed long ago and some people who never read neither K., nor ABB followers came to this opinion by themselves. Arjuna had a wife, everyone knows it. So K. didn't create smth. new, he simply joined the opposite party which always existed. R> [As an aside, it should be remembered that Krishnaji to a large extent R> responsible for Radha Burnier running for the office of International As Russian (and maybe French) rhyme says, "The cuckoo praises a cock for his praising a cuckoo" R> And he [K] never "presented" himself as being celibate. According to the Did he ever mentioned, had he a sex himself? Maybe he is simply theoretical? >So sex becomes the one issue which is our very own, which is not >second-hand. And in the act of sex there is a forgetting of oneself, >one's problems and one's fears. In that act there is no self at all." He always said what people wanted to hear from him, so in it lies the secret of his popularity. Similiarly of Osho Rajnish & others of that kind. Anyway, what other he could recommend, if he denied existence of any kind of soul and explaned all the psychic activity by action of the brain cells? It's natural for lokayata. It seems to me that even he ever was a disciple, he failed. Maybe the test was to difficult for him. For example, Buddha lived in a palace and it was a probation for him, but Krishnamurti got a more sophisticated one. He was said: you're long awaited messiah, the world teacher will talk through you! And he catched the bait and played a part of a great teacher. Only when he was 33 he understood that something is wrong. Of course he got angry on the teachers who played with him that joke and continued without them. Btw, Lutyens writes that K. ceased his trust to Masters when they didn't heal his brother Nitya. I think that Krishnamurti was the greatest CWL's mistake, much worse than his sexual affairs. Impurity of one, even leading TS member doesn't mean a thing at all, but Krishnamurti destroyed the work of many years and converted TS from a newage locomotive to mere club of amateurs of the occult. Returning to sex, I think that many arguments pro are collected in "Sex & marriage", the digest from several Bailey books. BTW, have anyone of you read "Disciple's mirror", a book written down by Brigit Lomborg? Is it popular among the western theosophists? That book states that sex is not prohibited, and moreover, recommended for the disciples. An author, who declared himself to be that Tibetan who wrote Bailey books, stated that an experiment with the groups of disciples has failed because humanity isn't developed enough, so hie- rarchy tried an experiment with the least possible group - a pair. One member of the pair is more developed (approx. one life ahead) and leads another one. An author, whoever he could be, seems to me a very informed person; our Roerich fans don't deny that though regard him to be a black lodge emissar. Of course the book overviews different questions, most of them have no obvious connection with a sex. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:33:52 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Use of Drugs and the free market Message-ID: <354507D0.C1304AA9@sprynet.com> Thoa Tran wrote: > >By and large, one removes onesself > >from the breeding pool, or at least the active parenting pool, and by > >doing so, improves the condition of humanity. Therefore, evolution in > >action. > > Ouch, Bart! Why not go further and say that there should be no laws > whatsoever. Let humans govern themselves. Chuckie would love that. We > don't have to have traffic laws. Whoever approach the intersection the > quickest and has sharp hand/eye coordination, will survive the traffic. > That means we can get rid of all the slow folks, the old folks, the > inexperienced drivers, and the daydreamers. I would opt for a military > tank, myself. If you get rid of traffic laws, careful drivers will be at much at risk as dangerous drivers. So now, I WILL go into my position on the laws against drugs: If drugs are legal, the primary victims of drugs would be the drug-users themselves. If they were not legal, the primary victims would be non-drug users. And, by the way, I believe that alcohol is one of the worst drugs around, and the worst are the semi-legal amphetamines and barbituates. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:25:17 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Use of Drugs and the free market Message-ID: <47f20627.354513de@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-27 15:59:03 EDT, you write: >Ouch, Bart! Why not go further and say that there should be no laws >whatsoever. Let humans govern themselves. Chuckie would love that. We >don't have to have traffic laws. Whoever approach the intersection the >quickest and has sharp hand/eye coordination, will survive the traffic. >That means we can get rid of all the slow folks, the old folks, the >inexperienced drivers, and the daydreamers. I would opt for a military >tank, myself. > >Thoa :o) Sounds like a good idea to me. My father used to define a law as a scrap of paper that was: Proposed by idiots Passed by crooks Enforced by thugs and Obeyed by wimps. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:56:03 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Sex and Spirituality Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980427205603.00858ca0@mail.eden.com> Hello There were some msgs about sex in the context of spirituality. (Leadbeater)Theosophy (and ES)followers are firm believers in the "theory" that with sex you cannot progress spiritually, in spite of all the undisputed allegations about Leadbeater on sex matters. (Some Leadbeater followers try to clear him by saying that he was never convicted and hence in "our" system of justice, a man is innocent until proven guilty.) However, to the surprise and shock of traditionalists, Krishnaji propounded a totally revolutionary viewpoint on this important issue. Here is an excerpt from a book by Mary Lutyens on Krishnaji, where she discusses the issue of Celibacy. I think it is a very interesting point of view worth thinking and if you prefer, meditating about! [As an aside, it should be remembered that Krishnaji to a large extent responsible for Radha Burnier running for the office of International President which she won.] .........mkr ===================================== And he [K] never "presented" himself as being celibate. According to the tenets of Leadbeater-Theosophy, celibacy was essential for any aspirant to the Path of Discipleship but K broke away entirely from Theosophy and its tenets in 1929 and thereafter often spoke publicly against celibacy. Here are a few quotations from his published talks to prove this point: "So-called holy men have maintained that you cannot come near God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with And again: "I think we should understand what love and chastity are. The vow of chastity is not chastity at all, for below the words the craving goes on and trying to suppress it in different ways, religious and otherwise, is a form of ugliness which, in its very essence, is unchaste. The chastity of the monk, with his vows and denials, is essentially worldliness which is unchaste. All forms of resistance build a wall of separateness which turns life into a battlefield; and so life becomes not chaste at all." And yet again: "To deny sex is another form of brutality; it is there, it is a fact. When we are intellectual slaves, endlessly repeating what others have said, when we are following, obeying, imitating, then a whole avenue of life is closed; when action is merely a mechanical repetition and not a free movement, then there is no release; when there is this incessant urge to fulfil, to be, then we are emotionally thwarted, there is a blockage. So sex becomes the one issue which is our very own, which is not second-hand. And in the act of sex there is a forgetting of oneself, one's problems and one's fears. In that act there is no self at all." In answer to a question he was asked at a public meeting, "Is it possible for a man and a woman to live together, to have sex and children, without all the turmoil, bitterness and conflict in such a relationship?" K said, "Can't you fall in love and not have a possessive relationship? I love someone and she loves me and we get marriedÄthat is all perfectly straightforward and simple, in that there is no conflict at all. (When we say we get married I might just as well say we decide to live together.) Can't one have that without the other? Without the tail, as it were, necessarily following? Can't two people be in love and both be so intelligent and so sensitive that there is freedom and an absence of a centre that makes conflict? Conflict is not in the feeling of being in love. The feeling of being in love is utterly without conflict. There is no loss of energy in being in love. The loss of energy is in the tailÄjealousy, possessiveness, suspicion, doubt, the fear of losing that love, the constant demand for reassurance and security. Surely it must be possible to function in a sexual relationship with someone you love without the nightmare which usually follows. Of course it is." ============================== end================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:34:20 +0900 From: Darren Subject: you are the perfect drug Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980428153420.00693524@ozemail.com.au> Somewhere in the Illuminatus Trilogy (R.A.Wilson) it is said the cardinal sin is to force your trip upon anyone else. In my previous postings I may have seemed like I was attempting to do just this. I do not in fact endorse drug use for everybody I do however feel that the right to choose seems like in inalienable human right. I don't live in the US but I believe your constitution protects the freedom of religion. This is how the Native American Church is enabled to continue peyote ceremonies. "Don't Use Drugs" or "Just Say No" are just as dogmatic as the Doctrine of Atonement and in my opinion a Theosophist should disdain dogma of any sort as it places limits on the mind - a mind contained is not free. IMHO, enlightenment may be years of work or it can be a sudden revelation either way the question is how do we integrate the eschatalogical experience in the aftermath. And what do we truly want once we've solved all the problems? I think the idea of immortality to the intellect is somehow repulsive. The Truth shall set you free. Blah Blah Blah - It doesn't really matter what I say, all argument tends to polarisation thus impeding progress. The systems we live in are strangling us. >From 21C U.S Secretary of Labor Robert B. Reich has warned of a potential "secession of the rich" - the abdication of social responsibility by an Information Age elite "linked by jet, modem, fax, satellite and fibre-optic cable to the great commercial and recreational centres of the world, but... not particularly connected to the rest of the nation". In such a context, virtual communitarianism that does not bear fruit in the meatworld, as a result of on-line grassroots organizing, entrepreneurial initiatives, information exchange, consciousness raising, and so forth, cedes the TERRITORY pf the real to the powers that be and escapes to a kinder, gentler place by rolling itself up in the MAP. It is indistinguishable, in all the essentials from TV escapism. Here ends transmission NOS * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:06:58 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1504 Message-ID: <1606efd5.35420a23@aol.com> Carrot w/a dash of white wine, I would be interested in more about The Voice of God/The Hand of God sword. Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Use of Drugs and the free market Message-ID: Bart: > If you get rid of traffic laws, careful drivers will be at much at risk >as dangerous drivers. Either way, more people will die. Besides, being careful has nothing to do with being more dexterious. >So now, I WILL go into my position on the laws >against drugs: If drugs are legal, the primary victims of drugs would be >the drug-users themselves. If they were not legal, the primary victims >would be non-drug users. I beg to differ. Drug abusers will be too far gone to care about how much they're suffering. They will have little on their mind besides the preoccupation with maintaining the "normal" drug state. The true sufferers will be those around them who are sober enough to realize they're suffering. Look at how spouses of drug abusers have suffered from abuse and neglect. Look at how children of drug abusers have suffered from abuse and neglect. Look at how parents of drug abusers have suffered from having to enable their children because of parental love. Look at victims of crimes from desperate drug abusers who no longer have a clear sense of right and wrong. Have you ever looked into a drug abuser's eyes? What I saw was that THEY DON'T CARE. They can't care. > And, by the way, I believe that alcohol is one of the worst drugs >around, and the worst are the semi-legal amphetamines and barbituates. With prevalence of alcoholism and intoxicated driving, I would have to agree. In a way, it's unfair for the law to make it okay to be drunk as a skunk (while you're not driving), but not okay to smoke pot. For the law to be fair, should it eliminate all mind-altering drugs? Should it draw the line on the potency of the drug? However, the potency is also dependent on the quantity. Should it draw the line on the quantity? But how are you going to control that? Or should all drugs be legal? Should it be legal and regulated? How would that change things? We could never know for sure. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:43:26 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Use of Drugs and the free market Message-ID: The Heretic: >Sounds like a good idea to me. > >My father used to define a law as a scrap of paper that was: > >Proposed by idiots > >Passed by crooks > >Enforced by thugs > >and > >Obeyed by wimps. Your building didn't fall on you If you rent, your place is kept in relatively good condition You didn't have to deal with drivers doing totally unexpected things on the road (not too much, anyway) Your food is relatively safe, your medication has been tested Your neighborhood is clean (I think) People aren't walking into your house whenever they want to People aren't taking your stuff whenever they want to Airplanes aren't landing in your backyard If a crime is happening in your home, see how quickly you'll call one of those "thugs." Your doctor or dentist has to be regulated. Etc., etc. If you're enjoying any of those, you're enjoying the benefits of laws and regulations. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:36:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theosophical Movement Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980428133639.00984b20@mail.eden.com> Visiting some of the websites of Theosophical Organizations to see how many links are there to other Theosophical Organizations, I was surprised. Larger the organization more isolated they are. You can visit yourself and see for yourself. It is only here that all of us students of Theosophy belonging to any org or none meet and discuss argue and share, a truly unifying phenomenon, which is going to grow as more people have access to Internet. Internet may put an end to Theosophical Organizations as we know it, because they may not have any role other than re-publishing classics. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:10:49 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Theosophical Movement Message-ID: >Visiting some of the websites of Theosophical Organizations to see how many >links are there to other Theosophical Organizations, I was surprised. >Larger the organization more isolated they are. You can visit yourself and >see for yourself. > >It is only here that all of us students of Theosophy belonging to any org >or none meet and discuss argue and share, a truly unifying phenomenon, >which is going to grow as more people have access to Internet. > >Internet may put an end to Theosophical Organizations as we know it, >because they may not have any role other than re-publishing classics. > >mkr And if the internet theosophy grew large enough, we can set up a meeting place once a year where we can hang out, and have a beer or cool-aid. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:15:56 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: you are the perfect drug Message-ID: <35462AEC.8EF93F2D@sprynet.com> Darren wrote: > constitution protects the freedom of religion. This is how the Native > American Church is enabled to continue peyote ceremonies. USED to be enabled. It has been decided by the Supreme Court that the so-called "War on Drugs" is more important than the Constitution, in particular the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 10th Amendments. Sigh. I was not planning on getting political, but I see an involutionary trend, here. Now please note that I believe that one should not blame on a conspiracy something that can be explained by the existence of large numbers of people, each one acting independently in his/her own selfish interest. I believe that what I am about to describe is the latter, rather than the former, although it has the apperance of the former. Note how the feudal system in medieval Europe got started. You had a powerful empire (the Roman) theoretically in control of things. But outside "barbarian hordes" were more than the empire's soldiers could handle. So the people had to band together themselves. Those who were good at fighting and leading others agreed to protect those who were not or could not, at the price of the freedom of the protected. Only the masters were allowed to have weapons, which kept the descendents of the serfs (a misspelling of "slave") from being able to effectively do anything about their condition, which perpetuated their slavery long after the dangers were gone. In the United States, the original concept was that every man was a nobleman; all were expected to defend themselves and those who could not defend themselves, at no price. In addition, groups that later evolved into police forces were also formed, in order to capture the human predators who got away from the individuals. Eventually, the police forces were also expected to provide the basic protection, as well, although officially and legally their duties were still solely to catch criminals after the crime was committed. This has continued to the point where the legal system paradoxically prevents people from defending themselves based on the fact that this is the job of the police, yet fails to require that the police defend anybody (the latter shown by the universal failure of innumerable lawsuits against individual police officers who failed to even attempt to protect victims of crime in spite of the individual police officer's physical presence on the scene and knowledge that the crime was being committed). So-called "gun-control" laws give relatively minor penalties to career criminals using guns, while giving relatively draconian penalties to otherwise law-abiding citizens using guns, even in self-defense. (Note: this is not to say that gun control is, in and of itself, wrong. What I am against is laws called gun control laws that actually ENCOURAGE criminals to use guns, knowing that the penalties if caught are offset by the smaller chance of being caught, and being ensured that their potential victims are almost certainly unarmed). So now we have a small class of people allowed to carry weapons (the police, security guards, people in government, private security agents and the well-connected), with the majority prevented from doing so. As long as as society remains civilized, then there is no real encroachment on freedom. Unless the barbarian hordes come. And, if barbarian hordes do not exist, it becomes necessary to create them. In the 1920's, in the United States, during Prohibition, the governemnt enjoyed unprecdented power to stomp on people's rights. In the meantime, in order to deal with this, crime became more organized. When Prohibition ended, both groups were in a panic. Without Prohibition, the Prohibition agents would be out of a job. And without a crime which required organization, the individual criminals would oust organized crime. However, among the legitimate industries that had been bought up by organized crime was the wood pulp industry. The problem was that paper produced from hemp was far superior to the paper produced from wood pulp, and not much more expensive. In addition, the leaves from the hemp plant were commonly smoked, especially by members of hated minority groups, for the purpose of intoxication. So organized crime, using the Spanish name for hemp, or "marijuana", came out with a major anti-marijuana campaign. The government agents, seeing a way of keeping their jobs, possibly not aware and certainly not caring about the origins of the campaign, jumped on the bandwagon. And then came the "War on Drugs". A war fought in rather strange way. It was fought in such a way as to whittle away the rights of the honest citizen, in the name of "protection", while doing as little as possible to actually stop drug use. It did, however, drive the price of drugs so high that drug addicts used powerful and concentrated forms of the drugs, to save money and to be able to hide the drugs more easily. This, of course, also sped up the cycle of addiction. In addition, by using the relatively expensive tool of jailing the end user for long periods of time, it made the use of drugs a more major crime than use of a gun in a robbery. Since sentencing for multiple crimes is usually concurrent, it meant that gun control laws were pretty much meaningless to the drug addict looking for money for another fix. So now we have our "barbarian hordes", against which the average citizen cannot (both in a physical and legal sense) protect themselves. We have a heavily armed government taking away more and more of the rights of the citizens to protect them from the "barbarian hordes". Yet the governemnt has no obligation to do so. So we head, slowly but very surely, to a new feudalism. On top of that, we have a growing number of people who have decided that the only solution is to prepare to take up arms against the government. They call themselves the "militia movement", and are characterized as being made up largely of right wing gun nuts. Unfortunately, that characterization is becoming increasingly incorrect as more and more otherwise political moderates are joining up. And THAT is something to be scared of. Drugs are certainly bad for many people; an excellent source on why is Dr. Andrew Weil's FROM CHOCOLATE TO MORPHINE. But the war on drugs is worse. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:17:24 -0700 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Muchos Drugos Message-ID: <3544AF87.42D4@withoutwalls.com> > In a message dated 98-04-26 09:34:06 EDT, you write: > > >: Chuck will be for anything, because he can't accept the idea of > >being against anything :) > > With the possibility of jugemental self-righteousness, stupidity, and people > who try to make saints out of scoundrels, morons, and media personalities. > > I'm neither pro nor anti drug. I am against those who think they are > qualified to make a decision for someone else. Bless you Chuck, You are often the reasoned voice of the Trickster. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:22:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Visiting Adyar Message-ID: <199804271322.JAA09829@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Dear Kay, The visiting hours at Adyar for casual visitors are fairly restricted, something like 2-4 in the afternoon, whereas members can visit all day. That's the only difference, I think. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:42:22 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye Subject: Critiques on K. Paul Johnson's Thesis concerning the Theosophical Mahatmas M. & K.H. Message-ID: <3544A75E.609B@azstarnet.com> Critiques on K. Paul Johnson's Thesis concerning the Theosophical Mahatmas M. & K.H. by Daniel H. Caldwell Some subscribers to Theos-Talk and Theos-L may be interested in the following critiques on K. Paul Johnson's thesis concerning the Theosophical Mahatmas Morya and Koot Hoomi. I get on the average 3 or 4 emails a week in regards to the critiques done by David Pratt and myself on Johnson's thesis. We have completely run out of paper copies of my HOUSE OF CARDS critique and we have decided to reprint it as a pamphlet for mass distribution. We will be adding a number of appendices. I give below an overview of the various critiques with their World Wide Web (http) addresses. I especially urge Theosophical students to read David Pratt's excellent critique. I want to quote at this point from my REPLY to Johnson's rebuttal of my HOUSE OF CARDS which I have titled: Methinks Johnson Has "Shot" Himself in the "Foot": Comments on Some of Johnson's Rebuttal Remarks http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/johntabl.htm by Daniel H. Caldwell The Introduction is as follows: "My critique titled K. Paul Johnson's House of Cards? was published in late 1996 both in paper copy and as a World Wide Web document. Several months later K. Paul Johnson published on the WWW his rebuttal STRAIN AT A GNAT, SWALLOW A CAMEL: A Reply to Daniel Caldwell's Criticisms. I want to thank Mr. Johnson for the time and effort he took to reply to my critique of his thesis on the Theosophical Mahatmas. His rebuttal has helped me to understand his position better. Unfortunately, Johnson made many unwarranted statements and fallacious arguments in his rebuttal. There are at least 40 points in his rebuttal needing refutation and correction. It would probably take a few hundred pages to deal adequately with these 40 points. I have written . . . detailed answers to two of his points. I seriously don't understand his "reasoning" in these two instances. I believe that his arguments in these two instances are fallacious and I have tried to show that with detailed analysis. I welcome *substantive* comments especially from any of Johnson's "defenders." I would love to understand the "logic" of his two points. Please email me at blafoun@azstarnet.com " Many readers of my latest reply have written me thanking me for exposing the illogic of Johnson's reasoning. They have expressed sheer amazement with Johnson's contradictory and illogical arguments. I'm glad other persons are equally amazed with me concerning Johnson's "arguments." I give below all the published critiques with their http addresses on the WWW: (1) K. PAUL JOHNSON’S HOUSE OF CARDS? A CRITICAL EXAMINATION OF JOHNSON'S THESIS ON THE THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS MORYA AND KOOT HOOMI http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/johnson.htm by Daniel H. Caldwell Contents: Part I: Johnson's Thesis in Light of Colonel H.S. Olcott's Testimony about the Masters Part II: Will The Real Master Morya Please Take His Turban Off Part III: Other Testimonies of Encounters with the Master Morya Part IV: Mohini Chatterji’s Alleged "Deception" Part V: ‘Saib Kashmere’ = ‘Saib Morya’ = Ranbir Singh of Kashmir??? Part VI: Who's Pulling Whose Leg? Or How Can You Tell When It Is "Disinformation" or Not? Part VII: Conclusion ADDITIONAL MATERIAL ON JOHNSON'S THESIS CONCERNING THE THEOSOPHICAL MAHATMAS IS AS FOLLOWS: (2) STRAIN AT A GNAT, SWALLOW A CAMEL: A Reply to Daniel Caldwell's Criticisms http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dlane/pjimp.html by K. Paul Johnson (3) Methinks Johnson Has "Shot" Himself in the "Foot": Comments on Some of Johnson's Rebuttal Remarks http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/johntabl.htm by Daniel H. Caldwell (4) The Theosophical Mahatmas: A Critique of Paul Johnson's New Myth http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/johnson.htm by David Pratt From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:58:03 +0400 From: "K. Zaitzev" Subject: TS_Adyar Message-ID: <199804271658.UAA05461@idg.chph.ras.ru> Hello! 26 Apr 1998 M K Ramadoss wrote: MKR> I do not see anyone having a problem in applying for membership. I MKR> have not seen any case where membership application has been rejected. Some people here in Moscow (including me) had a problems in greater or lesser extent. The main problem is that we have no national section, but only the persidential representative. But she decides nothing, she can only recommend a candidate. All the applications are passed through European federation TS. Why do we have no national section, you may ask. We haven't enough members to form a lodge in Moscow. (F.Y.I. - population of Moscow reaches nearly 10 mln. people.) But we haven't 7 members for a lodge. (It doesn't mean at all that people here don't interesting in theosophy. For example since 1991 several editions of "Secret Doctrine" were sold here, approx. in 50000 copies each. In addition, note that publishers here often decrease a declared number of copies in order to avoid big taxes). MKR> I suggest you send a e-mail to Adyar and they will respond quickly. MKR> Address it to Mrs. Radha Burnier, International President. OK, please give me an email address of Adyar. MKR> e-mail a msg about his plans to visit Madras -- now called Chennai and MKR> address the request to Mrs. Radha Burnier, International President I'll inform him when I get the address. Though he is travelling he can email. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:46:04 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS_Adyar Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980427124604.00940770@mail.eden.com> I will mail you the e-mail address. BTW, there is a provision in the Rules of TS, by which one could directly be attached to Adyar without any intermediary organization. Also what advantages you are all expecting by forming a lodge or study center or branch? mkr At 01:06 PM 4/27/1998 -0400, you wrote: > > Hello! > >26 Apr 1998 M K Ramadoss wrote: > >MKR> I do not see anyone having a problem in applying for membership. I >MKR> have not seen any case where membership application has been rejected. > > Some people here in Moscow (including me) had a problems in greater >or lesser extent. The main problem is that we have no national section, >but only the persidential representative. But she decides nothing, she >can only recommend a candidate. All the applications are passed through >European federation TS. Why do we have no national section, you may ask. >We haven't enough members to form a lodge in Moscow. (F.Y.I. - population >of Moscow reaches nearly 10 mln. people.) But we haven't 7 members for >a lodge. (It doesn't mean at all that people here don't interesting in >theosophy. For example since 1991 several editions of "Secret Doctrine" >were sold here, approx. in 50000 copies each. In addition, note that >publishers here often decrease a declared number of copies in order to >avoid big taxes). > >MKR> I suggest you send a e-mail to Adyar and they will respond quickly. >MKR> Address it to Mrs. Radha Burnier, International President. > OK, please give me an email address of Adyar. > >MKR> e-mail a msg about his plans to visit Madras -- now called Chennai and >MKR> address the request to Mrs. Radha Burnier, International President > I'll inform him when I get the address. Though he is travelling he >can email. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:49:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Visiting Adyar Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980427124938.0093ec50@mail.eden.com> At 09:30 AM 4/27/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Kay, > >The visiting hours at Adyar for casual visitors are fairly >restricted, something like 2-4 in the afternoon, whereas members >can visit all day. That's the only difference, I think. > >Cheers, >Paul You are right. What happens is that a large number of visitors visit Adyar to see the old Banyan Tree. As a matter of fact if you get into a taxi, people usually tell the driver to drive to Adyar Banyan tree. In any case it would be a good idea to contact ahead of time. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:42:38 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Emptiness Message-ID: >Hi Thoa, > >Please clarify how energy and emptiness are related. > >Julien Hi Julien, Besides talking about my belly? :o) Okay, several clues. Let's look at the root of all this, the cosmic evolution. Look at Stanza 1 and 2 in the SD I. These two Stanzas describe the latency state of the Eternal Parent. The descriptions are all about what it is not. It is about its "emptiness," its potential energy. Scientifically. You might want to look up the work of David Bohm, a quantum physicist. It was discovered that empty space is not actually empty, but contains varying waves. With that knowledge, they calculated the minimal amount of energy a wave contains. From that, they calculated that space contains more energy than total matter. You can find interesting correlations in the Secret Doctrine I (p.527, there are other references, but I can't remember the pages) in references to a substance called "ether." Ether, as science has defined it, does not exist. However, in terms of Ether, a principle of Akasa and a filler of Space, this seems true. There are references here and there in the SD I and II regarding ether's function as transporter of psychic energy. An easy read that gives an overview of it and which I find related to some of HPB's scientific and psychic analysis is "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, ISBN 0-06-092258-3. In art terms, I'm going to use a quote that Mark Kusek used in his post to theos-talk: >From Michael Adam's 'Wandering in Eden: Three Ways to the East Within Us' ©1973 Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. (The Way of Emptiness - pg 57) - "The Tao cannot be told, it cannot be painted. Being invisible, it could seem that the only fitting representation is a blank sheet of paper, but blankness of this kind in no way conveys the way of Tao, the wonder of Emptiness, nor suggests it as the source and being of all the ten thousand things. But when a master painter takes the empty paper and makes a mark in one corner only, the whole sheet becomes alive; what was only blank is now vibrant, potent, pregnant. This is the "mystery of Emptiness" of which the Sung painters spoke. By way of what is painted, what cannot be painted is implied - the invisible Reality, the Tao, is suggested. Let a master brush a small bird upon a blank sheet and blankness becomes the wide upholding sky; what was only empty becomes Emptiness, all heaven is immediatekly at hand. Drawing a bird, he creates a sky for the bird to fly in. If there were no bird, there would be no sky. Without the sky the bird could not fly, could not 'be.' Without Emptiness nothing could 'be'[neither sky nor bird], with Emptiness all comes into being." Who says the eternal being does not exist? Who says the sun has gone out? Someone who climbs up on the roof, and closes his eyes tight, and says, I DON'T SEE ANYTHING. -Jelaluddin Rumi "Unseen Rain" Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:43:07 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Use of Drugs and the free market Message-ID: Bart: > Once again, I will not talk of the laws. However, I feel that >mind-altering drugs have extremely limited use in evolution. By and >large, they mimic chemicals in the brain, only more concentrated. >Certain drug-induced mental states mimic mental states that can be >reached by meditation or other self-induced means. They can be used as >initial guideposts (when you feel that way without the drugs, you know >you are going in the right direction). However, by and large, they are >used with selfish purpose in mind; feeling good. However, the mechanism >of addiction works that once one takes something to feel good too much, >then eventually, one needs it to feel normal. In the meantime, side >effects step in, or worse, one chooses even stronger substances to >retrieve the good feeling that one can no longer get with the previous >substance. If one does not break the cycle, the result is stagnation at >best, and self-destruction at worst. You're exposed to NYC, you can see this in action. I've observed effects of addiction in others and have often observed recreational usage of drugs. That is why I agree with you on this. Granted, maybe there's a small percentage that are able to use drugs in a spiritual way, but for the general population, your description is more accurate. I have one question. What is your stand on alcohol, another mind-altering but legal drug? To me, if one takes a certain stand on drugs, then one has to take the same stand on alcohol. I get a chuckle at parents who drink like fish but will go into a panic if they caught someone smoking pot in their house. The only difference I see is the legality of it. >By and large, one removes onesself >from the breeding pool, or at least the active parenting pool, and by >doing so, improves the condition of humanity. Therefore, evolution in >action. Ouch, Bart! Why not go further and say that there should be no laws whatsoever. Let humans govern themselves. Chuckie would love that. We don't have to have traffic laws. Whoever approach the intersection the quickest and has sharp hand/eye coordination, will survive the traffic. That means we can get rid of all the slow folks, the old folks, the inexperienced drivers, and the daydreamers. I would opt for a military tank, myself. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:54:13 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Critiques on K. Paul Johnson's Thesis concerning the Theosophical Mahatmas M. & Message-ID: HAHHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA....Whoo! Sorry. You know, the more I know, the more I'm enjoying these dueling exchanges. It's like watching theosophical characters in a play. I know, personal reputations are at stake. But this really tickles my funny bone. Thoa :o) >Critiques on K. Paul Johnson's Thesis concerning the Theosophical >Mahatmas M. & K.H. > >by Daniel H. Caldwell > >Some subscribers to Theos-Talk and Theos-L may be interested in the >following critiques on K. Paul Johnson's thesis concerning the >Theosophical Mahatmas Morya and Koot Hoomi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:12:29 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Drugs good or bad. Message-ID: <01bd7229$917a9f40$167d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BD7208.0A68FF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I'm neither pro nor anti drug. I am against those who think they are >qualified to make a decision for someone else. > >Chuck the Heretic As usual Chuck, you are right on. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BD7208.0A68FF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>I'm neither pro nor anti drug.  I am against those who = think they=20 are
>qualified to make a decision for someone = else.
>
>Chuck=20 the Heretic
 
As usual Chuck, you are right on. 
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BD7208.0A68FF40-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:31:14 +0400 From: "K. Zaitzev" Subject: TS_Adyar Message-ID: <199804261131.PAA15090@idg.chph.ras.ru> Hello All! It's me again, previously known as Kay Ziatz ;) Technical means finally enabled me to subscribe this list again. I'm addressing mainly to members of TS Adyar. My first question is a question of membership. I've read carefully enough paragraphs on membership of the

RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF THE ASSOCIATION NAMED 'THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY', ADYAR, MADRAS

which I've found on the WWW page held by Alan Bain but I didn't found any information about joining except an age of candidates. So what might be reasons for denying a candidate for a membership and if an application was denied, can one try to join TS repeatedly and if yes, after what period of time? The second question is about Adyar headquarters. My penfriend goes travelling abroad and besides other countries he will visit India. He is planning to visit Adyar headquarters. But someone frightened him that casual visitors are not accepted there. Is it true? Can any street man come there and talk with a International secretary about a membership, for example? With best regards, Konstantin. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:26:34 -0400 From: jim meier Subject: on Drugs and the Path (Darren) Message-ID: <199804260927_MC2-3B0E-A75B@compuserve.com> To Darren, It's not really that people on theos-l don't take seriously what you wrote about Drugs and the Path, but it's a topic that has come up numerous times over the years. We've had fervent proponents of drug use, and rabid denials of HPB as anything less than saint before; we probably will again. You won't get many people to agree with your position, for a couple of reasons: first among them, not many people understand what drugs do or the mechanism of action. Second, many theosophists (at least those of us over the age of 40) came through the '60s and '70s and have already made more-or-less informed decisions on the subject. Drug use seems to be at most a short-term experiment among life-long theosophists. And the "pro-drug" faction seems to be off-list for the last year or so (except Chuck: Chuck will be for anything, because he can't accept the idea of being against anything :) You wrote, "If anyone is so naive to think that the induced drug state has any less merit than the meditative..." ??! Naive is a strong word -- is that really what you meant to write? Then suffice to say, a lot of "experts" disagree with you, including Patanjali, the founder of Raja Yoga. THE SUTRAS OF PATANJALI is the definitive guide to Yoga, of integration between the personality and the Soul (Self, Ego, pick your term of choice). Drugs have been known for thousands of years, and pretty much dismissed for just as long as a means of true enlightenment. Book IV, Sutra I says The Siddhis are the result of birth, drugs, mantrams or samadhi. Which is to say, drugs are definitely one way to experience an alternative reality. But is it enlightenment? That's the rub, and most informed opinion says not. In Book III, Sutra 37 Patanjali describes the siddhis as "obstacles on the Path" -- in other words, it is very easy to get stuck in the sensual attraction. Going back to "Reason One" above and the mechanism of drug action on consciousness: marijuana and mild psychotropics induce a simple astralism, and that is so far out of the ordinary experience that most folks who go that route accept it as the "End All, Be All of Reality." More potent hallucinogens affect brain chemistry in ways that may involve the lower mental plane, but that's the upper limit of what can be done working "from below, upwards." On the downside, repeated drug use can affect the etheric web between the centers and that is literally playing with fire. Ever read HATHA YOGA PRADIPIKA? It is the definitive "how to" on Kundalini Yoga. And this is the key point between occultists and the "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" types -- if there is a law of Cause and Effect, then doing certain things even in ignorance brings consequences and it is possible to so damage the physical vehicle that the rest of the incarnation is pretty much wasted, from the higher viewpoint. Breathing excercises, Magick -- we've had numerous such discussions on theos-l, and each "shortcut" has its proponents. Each such method has drawbacks that are potentially very serious, also. There hasn't been a lot written on drug use as a spiritual means. Saraydarian wrote "The Fiery Carriage and Drugs" but it is only a collection of soundbytes from talks on the subject and is not very useful. Ram Dass' BE HERE NOW is an autobiography of sorts on drug use leading to spiritual awakening. Ram Dass was once Richard Alpert, Harvard psychologist and companion to Timothy Leary during their early LSD and psilocybin experiments. BE HERE NOW is probably the best source on the subject, and the author points out that certain drugs can be an eye opener, no doubt, but once that's done there is no real point to the continued use. And, the author goes on to categorize the alternatives to drug use in a "cookbook" of spiritual practices that is very inclusive -- I wish it was required reading for theosophists (since most of us tend to drop back into "my way is the best way" at least every now and again). Mediation, on the other hand, creates the "Rainbow Bridge," the antahkarana, or link * in substance * between the ajna center and the cells of the brain and the Higher Self on causal levels. Drug use coarsens the web, making this more difficult. Jim PS: Imagine two clairvoyants walking together down the road when one says to the other, "Wow, look at the beautiful and clear aura on that man over there. I bet he takes lots of drugs..." :) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:00:50 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS_Adyar Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980426100050.009842e0@mail.eden.com> At 04:33 AM 4/26/1998 -0400, you wrote: > > Hello All! > >It's me again, previously known as Kay Ziatz ;) >Technical means finally enabled me to subscribe this list again. glad to see you back. > >I'm addressing mainly to members of TS Adyar. >My first question is a question of membership. >I've read carefully enough paragraphs on membership of the >

RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF THE ASSOCIATION NAMED >'THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY', ADYAR, MADRAS

>which I've found on the WWW page held by Alan Bain but I didn't found >any information about joining except an age of candidates. >So what might be reasons for denying a candidate for a membership >and if an application was denied, can one try to join TS repeatedly >and if yes, after what period of time? I do not see anyone having a problem in applying for membership. I have not seen any case where membership application has been rejected. I suggest you send a e-mail to Adyar and they will respond quickly. Address it to Mrs. Radha Burnier, International President. > >The second question is about Adyar headquarters. >My penfriend goes travelling abroad and besides other countries he will >visit India. He is planning to visit Adyar headquarters. But someone >frightened him that casual visitors are not accepted there. Is it true? >Can any street man come there and talk with a International secretary >about a membership, for example? Anyone is welcome at Adyar. What I would suggest is to ask your friend to e-mail a msg about his plans to visit Madras -- now called Chennai and address the request to Mrs. Radha Burnier, International President and you will get a response. > > With best regards, Konstantin. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:18:42 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: on Drugs and the Path (Darren) Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-26 09:34:06 EDT, you write: >: Chuck will be for anything, because he can't accept the idea of >being against anything :) > > With the possibility of jugemental self-righteousness, stupidity, and people who try to make saints out of scoundrels, morons, and media personalities. I'm neither pro nor anti drug. I am against those who think they are qualified to make a decision for someone else. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:41:26 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1507 Message-ID: <9030be71.35438de8@aol.com> Kenneth H. Malkin, I received a letter from John Algeo & Joan McDougall dated April 15th, 1998, which includes, "The National Lodge continues to grow - we are now over 400 members." Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:11:06 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1507 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980426151106.012b7c90@mail.eden.com> The national lodge membership is part of the 4000 total membership. There is an additional annual fees levied for the national lodge membership. mkr At 03:48 PM 4/26/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Kenneth H. Malkin, > >I received a letter from John Algeo & Joan McDougall dated April 15th, 1998, >which includes, "The National Lodge continues to grow - we are now over 400 >members." > >Julien > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:49:37 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1508 Message-ID: <29f631b6.35439de2@aol.com> Hi Thoa, Please clarify how energy and emptiness are related. Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:57:00 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1508 Message-ID: <74301eb9.35439f9f@aol.com> mkr, There exists, indeed, a "Wheaton" list. And, FYI, I have passed along interesting posts from this list to a "Wheatonist". Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:38:16 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1508 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980426183816.00988830@mail.eden.com> thanks. glad to know you have passed along interesting posts from here. mkr At 05:05 PM 4/26/1998 -0400, you wrote: >mkr, > >There exists, indeed, a "Wheaton" list. And, FYI, I have passed along >interesting posts from this list to a "Wheatonist". > >Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:22:40 +0900 From: Darren Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1507 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980425172240.006f5570@ozemail.com.au> To all fellow Theosophists, This posting is in reference to posts that may or may not have been on Theos-l. I like many other Theosophists subscribe to numerous different Theos mailing lists and I'm losing track of the threads of discussion due to the cross postings. Why don't we just have one big Theosophy newsgroup and forget about Theos-Talk , Theos-World, TI-L, Theos-l etc. I tried to start a serious debate recently regarding the use of Psychadelic Drugs and the TS stance towards them. It soon degenerated into an argument over whether HPB smoked Hash or not. I have only been on the path for a few years now but have learnt, read, assimilated and understood that we must take very seriously the use of entheogens and that the most important issue facing the world today all revolves the legality and usage of drugs. I beleive that if the world could fix this problem and have open discourse and education about the usage of psychadelic drugs all other problems would slowly fade away as people become illumined. If anybody is SERIOUS about looking into this and doesn't just accept government propaganda then I urge them to look into the following books: PIHKAL (Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved), By Alexender and Ann Shulgin. And the Sequel TIHKAL (tryptamines I have....) Strange Fruit, Clark Heinrich Food of the Gods, True Hallucinations, The Invisible Landscape or any other books by Terrence McKenna Psychadelic Experience, Timothy Leary If anyone is so naive to think that the induced drug state has any less many merit than the meditative then these books will be food for thought. Also another thought in passing - Is there a Theosopy channel on IRC? If not would anybody be willing to attend a channel If I were to set it up. We could have a couple of set times a week so people are on together. One last item: I received my TS introductory letters last week and was told openly about the ES and how to join. This seems incongruous with some of the info bandied around on the ACT group. check out: htttp://www.levity.com/~eschaton Namaste The Mighty NOS aka Darren Porter aka Ellis D. * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:21:55 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1507 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980425072155.012bd320@mail.eden.com> Your points are well taken. On any issue there are always people who off on a tangent and does not keep their focus on the issue of interest. As for the IRC channel, it is a good idea. I believe Eldon Tucker had setup one some time ago (I may be wrong, as I am quoting from memory). mkr At 03:56 AM 4/25/1998 -0400, you wrote: >To all fellow Theosophists, > >This posting is in reference to posts that may or may not have been on >Theos-l. I like many other Theosophists subscribe to numerous different >Theos mailing lists and I'm losing track of the threads of discussion due >to the cross postings. Why don't we just have one big Theosophy newsgroup >and forget about Theos-Talk , Theos-World, TI-L, Theos-l etc. > >I tried to start a serious debate recently regarding the use of Psychadelic >Drugs and the TS stance towards them. It soon degenerated into an argument >over whether HPB smoked Hash or not. I have only been on the path for a few >years now but have learnt, read, assimilated and understood that we must >take very seriously the use of entheogens and that the most important issue >facing the world today all revolves the legality and usage of drugs. I >beleive that if the world could fix this problem and have open discourse >and education about the usage of psychadelic drugs all other problems would >slowly fade away as people become illumined. > >If anybody is SERIOUS about looking into this and doesn't just accept >government propaganda then I urge them to look into the following books: >PIHKAL (Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved), By Alexender and Ann >Shulgin. And the Sequel TIHKAL (tryptamines I have....) >Strange Fruit, Clark Heinrich >Food of the Gods, True Hallucinations, The Invisible Landscape or any other >books by Terrence McKenna >Psychadelic Experience, Timothy Leary > >If anyone is so naive to think that the induced drug state has any less >many merit than the meditative then these books will be food for thought. > >Also another thought in passing - Is there a Theosopy channel on IRC? If >not would anybody be willing to attend a channel If I were to set it up. We >could have a couple of set times a week so people are on together. > >One last item: I received my TS introductory letters last week and was told >openly about the ES and how to join. This seems incongruous with some of >the info bandied around on the ACT group. > >check out: htttp://www.levity.com/~eschaton > >Namaste > >The Mighty NOS >aka >Darren Porter >aka >Ellis D. > >* Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: >http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me >E-mail Express directly to my computer screen >2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For >adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: >http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:11:57 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1503 Message-ID: <58660646.3541fd3e@aol.com> Chuck, I am asking Eggbert how he came up with his handle. Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:29:40 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Use of Drugs Message-ID: <35421D84.272AD118@sprynet.com> Darren wrote: I have stayed out of this debate, because there are two issues, one of which is relevant, one of which is irrelevant. The irrelevant issue, of course, is the laws against drugs. I am of strong personal opinions in that regard, but choose not to give them here. As far as the spiritual effects of the use of drugs, well, I consider the recreational use of mind-altering drugs to be an example of evolution in action, and in that, feel that those who wish to use them should be free to do so, and to learn from the karma they create thereby. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:20:25 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1503 Message-ID: <1490b649.3541ff41@aol.com> Hi Thoa, So, does your mathematical fact hold for the energy of bad poetry as well as Rumi poetry? Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:31:05 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1507 Message-ID: M K Ramadoss writes >On any issue there are always people who off on >a tangent and does not keep their focus on the issue of interest. As for >the IRC channel, it is a good idea. I setup IRC on my PC, but in the UK I found that I just sat there watching a blank screen when I logged on, and when occasionally I tried to find someone - like my brother in Australia - it took far too long to do anything. I deleted the whole shebang. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:39:33 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Poetry Message-ID: >Hi Thoa, > >So, does your mathematical fact hold for the energy of bad poetry as well as >Rumi poetry? > >Julien Hi Julien, No, because bad poetry is not actually "empty." It's full of crap. I can't think of any poem in mind, so I will use visual art as an example. Let's take a painting of a woman having a headache. Her hand is on her head, her face is grimacing in pain, and she looks like she has a headache. That is not empty. She has a headache, finished. Lousy painting. Second painting, I'm going to use a Sergeant painting (I forgot the name) of a woman walking down the dingy street with men looking at her. Is she a prostitute? What is her life condition like? Are the men looking at her with desire? Or are they bums casually looking at her? What is the economics that caused her to be in such a state? Perhaps she's just an entertainer walking down the street. Etc., etc. This painting is empty, because I could find many things in the emptiness. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:41:13 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Use of Drugs Message-ID: Bart, why are you staying out of this debate? Stop teasing! Hints, hints, but no firm stand. Enquiring minds want to know. Thoa :o) >Darren wrote: > > I have stayed out of this debate, because there are two issues, one of >which is relevant, one of which is irrelevant. The irrelevant issue, of >course, is the laws against drugs. I am of strong personal opinions in >that regard, but choose not to give them here. > > As far as the spiritual effects of the use of drugs, well, I consider >the recreational use of mind-altering drugs to be an example of >evolution in action, and in that, feel that those who wish to use them >should be free to do so, and to learn from the karma they create >thereby. > > Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:42:47 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: THEOS-L digest 1507 Message-ID: Darren: >This posting is in reference to posts that may or may not have been on >Theos-l. I like many other Theosophists subscribe to numerous different >Theos mailing lists and I'm losing track of the threads of discussion due >to the cross postings. Why don't we just have one big Theosophy newsgroup >and forget about Theos-Talk , Theos-World, TI-L, Theos-l etc. Can you see which list the posts came from in your e-mail? That would organize a few things for you. To expect the lists to combine would be like expecting all theosophists to unite under one institution. Impossible. Nothing causes more argument than over things we don't know. Besides, theosophists are on the whole very intelligent people with egos to match their intelligence. Can you see that as a recipe for dissension? >I have only been on the path for a few >years now but have learnt, read, assimilated and understood that we must >take very seriously the use of entheogens and that the most important issue >facing the world today all revolves the legality and usage of drugs. I >beleive that if the world could fix this problem and have open discourse >and education about the usage of psychadelic drugs all other problems would >slowly fade away as people become illumined. I have to admit, I am biased toward non-usage of drugs. I saw too much suffering due to the usage of drugs. Perhaps free market and education will change things. I doubt it. If we have a free market, will we be effective in educating the public? If the "Just Say No" campaign is not effective at making people stop using drugs, do you think a "Use Drugs Wisely" campaign is going to work at making people use drugs wisely and spiritually? If you do not post a speed limit on the highway, I bet that people are going to go as fast as their car will allow and that accident rates will go up. Gun lobbyists say "Guns Don't Kill People, People Kill People." Well, a gun is an instrument of destruction, isn't it? I wouldn't condemn you or anyone for using drugs. My heart also goes out to people whose lives are being ruined, or have been ruined by drugs. However, I would be against removing the laws. >If anybody is SERIOUS about looking into this and doesn't just accept >government propaganda I haven't looked at all the information you offered. However, from what I've seen, it is as much propaganda as anything else. In one of your previous post regarding about government propaganda, etc., you sounded like you were repeating what the pro-psychedelics people were saying. >Also another thought in passing - Is there a Theosopy channel on IRC? If >not would anybody be willing to attend a channel If I were to set it up. We >could have a couple of set times a week so people are on together. As Doss said, Eldon had set up something like that. I did not go for it because I had something like the buddy system on AOL and every time I log on to check my e-mail, someone would want to have a conversation with me. Sometimes I'm in a hurry, and I find it annoying. However, Eldon never mentioned anything about a set time. Now, I could go for a set time where we can have a chat session. That way, I'm prepared to chat and not caught in the middle of rushing to do something else. >One last item: I received my TS introductory letters last week and was told >openly about the ES and how to join. This seems incongruous with some of >the info bandied around on the ACT group. I don't know the reality of what's been going on with TS, ES, etc. However, I believe that the theosophists on this list are telling the truth based on their viewpoint. I've heard many complaints, and they all seemed to be valid. Until more Es'ers join the list and give another viewpoint, this is all I have to go on. >check out: htttp://www.levity.com/~eschaton Will do. >Namaste > >The Mighty NOS >aka >Darren Porter >aka >Ellis D. Namaste, Jesse No aka Thoa Tran :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:00:18 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Algeo's and Bruce's Response Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980425210018.0096d220@mail.eden.com> I gave some thoughts about Algeo's and Bruce's responses to ACT. I noticed some very interesting facts. We have not heard from any of the officers. Nor have I seen any "testimonial" from any of the past National Officials. Here on the Internet, I have not seen any messages today from any of the supporters of Algeo and/or Wheaton Leadership. Why is everyone silent? Have they forgotten the Golden Stairs? If any of the items discussed in the newsletter or on the Internet is inaccurate or erroneous, people should come to the defense, at least in my humble opinion. Since all we have read are just symptoms of some deep and perhaps serious underlying problems, we need to look into the causes behind them and once these are identified and understood, then solutions would be obvious. According some of the members, most of them very long time ones, the situation is quite serious and if not satisfactorily and creatively approached and quickly resolved, we may face a make or break situation for TSA as we go into the next millenium. It may not be even too late to seek the help of experience of Adyar in dealing with hot situations in the past around the world. This may require some swallowing of egos and pride which can be very difficult, especially for leaders. My 0.02. mkr PS: If Wheaton administration is not subscribed to these lists, then it is to their advantage to do so (due to the velocity and volume of feedback,), however much e-mail is personally not liked by John Algeo and others at Wheaton because it is not a medium that can be controlled or censored like other print medium they are used to for the past 100 years from the time of Blavatsky, Besant, etc. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:03:19 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Use of Drugs Message-ID: <3542A3F7.675975D6@sprynet.com> Thoa Tran wrote: > > Bart, why are you staying out of this debate? Stop teasing! Hints, hints, > but no firm stand. Enquiring minds want to know. Once again, I will not talk of the laws. However, I feel that mind-altering drugs have extremely limited use in evolution. By and large, they mimic chemicals in the brain, only more concentrated. Certain drug-induced mental states mimic mental states that can be reached by meditation or other self-induced means. They can be used as initial guideposts (when you feel that way without the drugs, you know you are going in the right direction). However, by and large, they are used with selfish purpose in mind; feeling good. However, the mechanism of addiction works that once one takes something to feel good too much, then eventually, one needs it to feel normal. In the meantime, side effects step in, or worse, one chooses even stronger substances to retrieve the good feeling that one can no longer get with the previous substance. If one does not break the cycle, the result is stagnation at best, and self-destruction at worst. By and large, one removes onesself from the breeding pool, or at least the active parenting pool, and by doing so, improves the condition of humanity. Therefore, evolution in action. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:55:59 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Stand up Mr. Algeo Message-ID: <35401B5E.1F7C1DBD@gate.net> Greetings, I received John Algeo's response to ACT's NL in my mail today. It was a mind opener for me. John wrote , " Moreover, since I am the principle target of the criticisms in the newsletter, it is inappropriate for me to reply directly." I do not understand this logic. What newsletter are you reading John? If something was stated publicly that I knew to be untrue or unwarranted, I would certainly protect my name and my reputation. Answering directly any statements I knew to be untrue would be my first priority. There is added to your post, several pages of supporting testimonials from various members. Only two of whom deny Esoteric School affiliation. Unfortunately missing from the 9 letters of support from the entire membership was the now infamous 'Bruce letter'. This well circulated (how did he get the names and addresses of the many people he copied directly is a mystery) attack letter is strange. If one can get a copy of this epistle, it will be seen as it has to so many, a manifestation of something beyond anyone's sure knowing. An interesting fACT became clear John. You state the letter and attachments were done with private funds. Great work, but where did you get the labels (they look like the usual ones we get) and why did you have access to the members list for a private mail out? In one statement you says the ACT NL was circulated ..." using addresses obtained irregularly ". Do you see, what you accuse ACT of, you are quilty of yourself. ACT worked very long and very hard to create a list of TSA members. It has fallen short.If anyone who can vote in the next TSA election wishes to receive the next ACT newlsetter please private post me. Don't you get it John, you are not better than the rest of us ! If you use the address list, the labels and the Wheaton photo copier or printer or envelopes you are not ACTing correctly. Why are you able to employ the membership mailing list from the Wheaton archives for you own personal use? Why do you deny the same opportunity to fellow members of the Theosophical Society in America. Do you understand now why ACT was created? Why ACT is gaining momentum and members? Why ACT finds administrative circumstances at Wheaton jejune? The " Warm & Fuzzy lodge and study group " initiative, your ES epistle, and the changes slowly being brought to discussion at Wheaton, appear as Band-Aids on a hemorrhaging of member distrust. You do not have the right to ACT one way and deny the members the same thing. The membership will not let the BOD et. al. drive them out. From 8000 members in 1980 when I joined, to less than 4000 today, how could you let this happen? You have made most of the 4000 or so members wonder and now start to demand answers.The old shibboleth about quality/quantity won't wash anymore. It is the work (reason for being) of the TSA to show by example how one can increase the refinement (quality) of ones being. If not that, what are we about? The BOD is naked now before the entire membership. We will not surrender the Society to people that have installed "Poison Pill" by-laws of no legal merit, to guard the gates at Wheaton against democracy. We will fight and fight and fight against the "Golden Parachute" the BOD is now trying to pass. Is it as it appears John, just a grab for the cumulative assets, the form stuff, of the TSA. According to the new by-laws being presented for a vote, the members who have no say in the operation of the Theosophical Investment Trust are being asked to hand over the assets of the TSA to TIT. Why would any sane person allow that organization to control the millions and millions of dollars of assets of the Theosophical Society in America when the "Board of directors deams it advisable". This is money held in trust created by others. It should be handled as the sacred duty it is. Supporting the efforts of the Theosophical Societys public programs for the betterment of humanity. Not for the exclusion of humanity and the benefit of the few who claim to be "better than" the rest of the membership. Stand up and see the light my dear President. We all admire you for taking the job. It can not be easy. Just change your view of things for a few moments and understand why we are crying out for you to ACT fairly. ACT will endorse you in a heart beat when you take the ACT pledge and shelve the irregular by-law proposals. It is right for the members, it is right for the Society and it is right for you. As always, my supportive peace profound, Kenneth H. Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:12:24 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Algeo's Letter re ACT Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980424001224.00854ce0@mail.eden.com> Ken Malkin has just posted a response to Algeo's letter. If anyone has received it, can you post it here so that all of us can see. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:21:18 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: John Algeo's Letter re: ACT newsletter Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980424002118.008573b0@mail.eden.com> I have just sent the following both by FAX and e-mail to John Algeo. I will let you all know when I receive it. mkr April 24, 1998 12.20 AM By e-mail and FAX John Algeo National President Theosophical Society in America Wheaton IL Dear Bro. Algeo: I just saw in the Internet a reference to your response letter relative to ACT Newsletter. I am very interested to get hold of a copy of the same with attachments. Could you Fax it to me as soon as you get to work Friday (tomorrow) morning? I have a toll-free fax # 1-877-615-7373, and the long distance charges will be picked up by me and it would save you postage and copying as well as the letter would get to me immediately -- transmission time will be a couple of minutes to travel to San Antonio from Wheaton. Time is the essence. If you are not in a position to fax it, don't bother to send it by snail mail. Regards, Fraternally yours, M K Ramadoss Member, San Antonio Lodge From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:36:47 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Algeo's Response to ACT Newsletter Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980424003647.00b94b30@mail.eden.com> Hi If anyone has received it, please fax it to me. I have access to a scanner and I can get it scanned and posted it here for everyone to read. My toll free fax # is 1-877-615-7373. Thanks. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:26:09 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Membership/Branch Downward trend in TSA Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980424092609.00854430@mail.eden.com> It is a fact that both the membership and the number of branches/study centers is continuing on a downward slide with no end in sight. Nor there is any indication of *any* concern about the trend at the leadeship level and if this continues, during our life times we will see TSA terminally ill as a Theosophical Organization. Some time ago, I was browsing the history of TS in the US. During the early part of this century, when Judge along with branches and members split from TS Adyar and TS Adyar lost most of its membership, the then International President did not keep quiet accepting the situation as inevitable. Annie Besant took it upon herself to revive TS Adyar around the USA. Travel in those days were not as easy as it is today. She took the time to go on a lecture tour of the country and it yielded results. Even in places where there were no members or branches, she stayed in Hotels and rented meeting places and lectured about Theosophy and other related subjects. (BTW, this is how Olcott started new branches around the world when he was the president). New branches were started and new members joined. As a result of all this, today we have TSA and its branches. In the current state of affairs, when one member mentioned that TSA membership stood at 8000 when he joined and today it is 4000. It is not an encouraging sight and does not need a genius to see these numbers and not be shocked. What has the leadership done to both acknowledge and address the problems and what are the results. Answers to these truths may be shocking and unplesant. But anyone who is searching for truth -- what ever it may or may not be -- should see glaring facts and do something about it. It reminds me of how Sam Walton, the founder of Sam Club and Walmart. He made it a point of visiting each and every store each year at least once. Till his death couple of years ago, he followed this philosophy and it yielded results. His stores expanded and are operating very efficiently and everyone of us at some time or other shopped at one of his stores. Look at what our National President has done. How many branches/study centers in the US has he visited during the last 12 months. How many cities has he visitied and tried to start branches where none exist today? All we read in his president's diary in AT is his activities about visiting other countries, Masonic Meetings, activities about dictionary society, and other items totally irrelevant to TS or Theosophy. What all this say, you can use your intelligence and come to your own conclusion. It is literally a situation of the house being on fire and something drastic has to be done and done immediately before the situation becomes irreversible. Anyone listening. I am glad that at least some members are really concerned and have initiated ACT and the outcome of all the efforts cannot but be good for the TSA. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:49:14 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theosophical Investment Trust Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980424094914.007a4470@mail.eden.com> In the January 1998 issue of AT, on pp. 19, in the President's Diary is an interesting statement: Refering to the Theosophical Investment Trust, which oversees the investments of TSA -- (which runs into millions of dollars,) it states that it has seven Trustees. Three Trustees are Ex-Offico -- TSA National President, one of the National Vice Presidents, and the National Treasurer. Four others (which is in a majority of 7), are *self* *perpetuating* but may not be officers of TSA. Do you all understand what *self* *perpetuating* means? How many of you have followed the 18 year litigation relating to another institution which had such a *self* *perpetuating* situation? The Krishnamurti Trusts had the same problem and when Krishnamurti was alive, these Trusts have to be sued by a new Foundation and the California Attorney General to extricate the Trusts from the self-perpetuating situation -- at enormous cost both in terms of time and large sums of money that cost the lawyers to litigate. TSA has not learned the lesson from Krishnamurti Trusts in spite of the fact that one of the Officers of the TIT Trust was one of the Trustees of the Krishnamurti Trust and was a defendant in the litigation. (Many members of TSA do not know about this fact). I have brought this to the attention of the TSA National President and the Board of Directors couple of years ago. I also pointed this out at the time of the last bylaws change which was presented as *house* *keeping* and all. The recently proposed bylaws change also does not address this important issue. My Brothers, if for any reason, TSA's charter is revoked voluntarily or involuntarily, then *all* the assets go to the TIT and from then on the *self* *perptuating* trustees are not answerable to *anyone*. And we will have a re-run of a worser situation than what we saw in Krishnamurti Trusts. At least Krishnamurti, the beneficiary, was alive at that time. With charter revocation, you and me, the dues paying members of TSA are no longer members and hence have no right whatsover to find out what the trustees are doing with all the millions of dollars funds and billions worth of real estate or with who is on the board of trustees. With dwindling membership and branches, time is now for members to wake up and do something about it. Contact your Directors, and other representatives. Arrange to attend the Annual Meetings. Send in your Proxies not to some one who is not in the current administration. Do anything else you can think of? What we do now will affect whether TSA as we know it will be there for our children and grand children. My 0.02 mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:01:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Two recommended books Message-ID: <199804241901.PAA18793@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> This week's batch of new books here at the library includes two that I recommend for Theosophists and those interested in Theosophy on the Net. Barbara Goldsmith's *Other Powers: The Age of Suffrage, Spiritualism, and the Scandalous Victoria Woodhull* gives a very vivid portrayal of the milieu in which the Theosophical Movement was born. Most of it is devoted to New York in the 1870s, the Spiritualistic milieu receiving particular notice. The second book, *The Argument Culture: Moving from Debate to Dialogue*, by Deborah Tannen illuminates the ways contemporary culture pushes toward polarization in discourse. Every topic gets reduced to two mutually exclusive polar opposites; the media focus on conflict more than on constructive dialogue and the entire culture is warped by that emphasis. This is relevant to the kind of discussions that we have had in the past on the theos- lists. "Approaching situations like warriors in battle leads to the assumption that intellectual inquiry, too, is a game of attack, counterattack, and self-defense. In that spirit, critical thinking is synonymous with criticizing...Opposition does not lead to the whole truth when we ask only `What's wrong with this?' and never `What can we use from this in building a new theory, a new understanding?'" PJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:08:21 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theosophical Investment Trust - Self-Perpetuation of Trustees Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980424200821.00984180@mail.eden.com> Hello: I have just sent the following msg to Wheaton by Fax and E-mail. Please note that I am copying it to the International President due to the importance of the issue. mkr Phone & FAX: (210) 615-7373 April 24, 1998 By Fax, E-mail, and USPS National President and Elected Members of Board of Directors Theosophical Society in America PO Box 270 Wheaton IL 60189-0270 Dear Brothers: The terms governing the Theosophical Investment Trust has been of concern to me since the time the Bylaws of TSA were revised couple of years ago. It may recalled that I corresponded with John Algeo on this subject couple of years ago. At that time I had requested him to send me a copy of the Trust document and the Bylaws, which he is yet to respond. This morning, I happened to read the President's Diary written by John Algeo in the Quest/AT of January 1998. On page 19, he had stated that the Theosophical Investment Trust which oversees investment of the funds of TSA has seven Trustees. Of the seven, three are ex-offico - (1) National President of TSA, (2) one of the National Vice Presidents of TSA and (3) the National Treasurer. The four others are "self-perpetuating" but may not be officers of the Society. Current bylaws provide for the transfer of all the assets of TSA to the TIT in the event of TSA being dissolved for whatever reason. He precisely explained the status of the four non ex-officio Trustees. This "self-perpetuating'" feature can be deadly at a future date. Many of you may perhaps know, the Krishnamurti Trusts set up to help Krishnaji travel and teach and lecture ended up having this "self-perpetuating" feature. When Krishnaji was alive and wanted to find out what was going on in the management of the Trust funds and assets, this "self-perpetuating" feature prevented him access to the information as well as he himself could not get on as a Trustee of the Trusts. Consequently, the new KFA Foundation was setup (which has specific "anti self-perpetuation feature") and it and the Attorney General of California had to sue the Krishnamurti Trusts and Trustees to recover the assets which were donated for the benefit of Krishnaji. The litigation went on for 18 years wasting huge sums of money on lawyers and causing a lot of trouble and inconvenience to Krishnaji and others. TSA and every charitable or religious organization can learn a valuable good lesson from what went on with the Krishnamurti Trusts. I strongly urge you and other members of the Board of Directors to study the documented details of Krishnamurti Trusts litigation to familiarize how this "self-perpetuation" feature was one of the fundamental causes which prolonged the litigation. No one need to take my word. Nor should any of you blindly take any statement made by one of the current officers of TSA who was one of the Krishnamurti Trust Trustees and was a defendant. Nor should the focus be the final settlement document which ended the litigation after Krishnaji's death. Instead I urge you all to study the details of the litigation with an open mind to fully understand the impact of what I am trying to say. As the cancellation of the charter has taken place in other countries for various reasons, no one should rule out such a thing happening in the USA. Also with a change in the composition of the membership and the elected National Board members, the current bylaws can be easily changed, thus removing all the protective clauses in the TSA Bylaws. So now is the time to look into this issue and make sure that it is fixed and fixed right before it is too late. Hence I request this issue be included in the next meeting of the Board of Directors of TSA and discussed and quick action taken. With regards, Fraternally Yours, M K Ramadoss >CC: Mrs. Radha Burnier, International President From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:23:25 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: John Algeo's Letter Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980424222325.0085a100@mail.eden.com> Finally I received a copy of John Algeo's letter, which Ken Malkin referred to in his msg. It is a 8 page letter; top 1/3 of the first page is John's letter and rest of them are 9 letters/testimonials/responses in support of John Algeo. The writers are: 1. Jeff Gresko, Assistant to the National President, TSA, Wheaton. (He is the administrative assistant to John Algeo) 2. Nancy Secrest, Assistant Treasurer, TSA, Wheaton. 3. Fred H Ayres 4. Augie Hirt 5. Daniel Ross Chandler 6. John Dickerman 7. Judy Stransky Hopper 8. Bonnie Price 9. Ed Sloan Some of them have explicitly indicated they are from Chicago area and it appears all of them are from Chicago area. As for (1) and (2) above, what else do you expect other than supporting John Algeo. Keeping their jobs at Olcott depends on their being in the good books of John Algeo or else will be on the streets at Algeo's whim. These responses remind me of another instance long time ago. During Annie Besant's time, when B P Wadia resigned from Adyar (TS) and went to work with ULT, he issued a long statement setting out the reasons why he decided to part company of TS Adyar headed by Annie Besant. Instead of Annie Besant responding to it, a response was issued under the signature of Krishnamurti and Nityananda, both of whom did not hold any office in TS. Probably it was written and or edited by Annie Besant before sent out under the signature of Krishnamurti and Nityananda. (Anyone who has not seen Wadia's statement, may want to read it. It is very interesting and educative.) MKR JOHN ALGEO'S LETTER: (Did not have a date) Dear Fellow Member: A group calling itself the "Association of Concerned Theosophists" has recently circulated a newsletter, using addresses obtained irregularly. Because very many, though not all, members have received this mailing, several good friends of the Society have urged a response and have offered to pay all expenses for it. This letter and its enclosures are consequently sent at no expense to the Society. Moreover, since I am the principal target of the criticisms in the newsletter, it is inappropriate for me to reply directly. I enclose instead copies of some letters sent to me as a result of that publication, which present different views of the matters in it. The "Activist" mailing is, I believe the first salvo in a campaign to elect a completely different set of officers for the Theosophical Society in America and thereby change radically the direction that the American Section has had for the past century and more. We have, of course, changed during that long period, and changed quite a lot, but not in dedication to the ideals of H. P. Blavatsky, Annie Besant, and others in the Adyar tradition of our Society. I hope that those who are looking for change will consider carefully what direction that change should be in. Honest and open discussion is healthy, but it should also be accurate, fair, and courteous. I urge your thoughtful response and your support for the integrity of the Society and the ideals of Theosophy. Cordially and fraternally, John Algeo, National President ----------------- Unsolicited letters follow ------------------------- ==================end ============================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:45:45 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Tepidity! Message-ID: Alan: >Only this week I have been pondering on the idea of an online "TI >Newsletter" but have been uncertain what form it might take. Certainly >no one wants an endless series of seriously biased articles from me, so >what would go in it? Why [stuns self into awake state] - the seriously >biased work of the members! Oh, seriously biased articles from Alan does not sound so bad. It'll guarantee that people will either be for or against your point of view. >So ... I am officially asking all (online only at this point) TI members to >e-mail me with short articles about the work they are doing, studies they >are undertaking, research, outreach, etc. etc. which can go into the >proposed Newsletter, which would be posted on TI-L only. Sounds good. However, for people who are not writers (me), a planned article can be excruciating. I only managed to somehow fall into writerhood only because Eldon went through my posts and found some that he found worthy of publishing in Theos-World. >To this end I am setting up a mailbox for such articles, which therefore >please send same to the e-mail address > >ti-news@nellie2.demon.co.uk >- *and only to that address* Okay, I'll keep this in my records. Time to start playing inspirational hypnotic tapes. >I may have to edit contributions if they are too long, or repetitive, but I >hope, with your co-operation, to issue a totally unedited Newsletter, so >that we all know what we are doing - a difficult thing in this day and >age! > >LET'S HEAR IT FOR "TI" !!! Hurrah! Yay! St. Alan of Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:20:30 EDT From: Bodhijack Subject: deletion Message-ID: <59b55c5e.353deea0@aol.com> please delete my name from list. thank you. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:55:45 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An Idea Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980422095545.010c4ae0@mail.eden.com> Recently when talking a longtime active member of TS(Adyar), the question came up about the feedback from the membership. This person reminded me in his very large organization, every year they get a survey from all their employees so the the top management may know what items needs attention. And the management takes the feedback seriously and act on them. However, I have not seen any such efforts from TSA so far. It is quite likely that this lack of any effort to get membership feedback may be due to: 1. Imitating the Adepts -- Top leaders know what is best for the members. Top down and no bottom up. So what membership feels is totally irrelevant. 2. Looking at the financial picture, TSA can survive with no members at all. So why bother. 3. Membership (downward) trend is on target. Is it possible that it is the undeclared intention of the leadership to reduce the membership in the long run and justify it saying that quality is more important than quality? I have not seen any goals being set for the coming years in terms of the membership. The goal may be downsizing or increasing membership. 4. Fear of what kind of feedback one will get. One may get a lot shocking news. 5. Fear of having to publicise the feedback and having publicised them, having to respond/act on them. Once the gates are open, you cannot close them. No feedback, nothing to worry. Just keep going. 6. #5 also may lead to more openness -- which means have to disclose more of the long term plans! Many of the members (including many here) may be considered not smart enough to understand the plans even if disclosed!!! 7. Never given a thought about getting any feedback. Anyone wants to add to the list. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:10:13 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: e-mail etc. Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980422101013.009627d0@mail.eden.com> We have discussed the subject especially in the context of TSA administration (including elected members of the BOD) not having geared up to effectively and efficiently use e-mail as a tool of communication with membership and the public. Recently, in a news talk show, a reporter made a telling statement which stuck me: "e-mail and Internet has increased and increasing the velocity and volume of flow of information and communication exponentially" It is quite possible that those who grew up in the quill pen and pencil and paper and snailmail environment are very uncomfortable or unable to deal with the fast moving and fast responses needed in today's cyber communication. this is not so with the current generation which is grew up in computer environment and the next generation which is growing up in Internet/e-mail environment. And also when someone else or some organization is footing the bill, (and not coming out of one's pocket) who cares if older means of communication -- high quality raised letter letterhead with matching high quality preprinted envelope and the 32 cent postage is more expensive and more destructive of trees. Just some possibilities. (Especially when stock market is producing huge returns these days, cost may not be that important). Also don't forget the advantages of slow moving snailmail. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:38:11 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Use of Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980422123811.0078171c@mail.eden.com> Here is a way a computer product company is addressing their customer support/problem solving. mkr >Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 05:09:23 -0700 >From: "dimdtech (Tech Support)" >To: M K Ramadoss >Subject: Re: 911 - Diamond Multimedia Technical Support Thank you for your request for a technician to personally answer your question. We are sorry you were unable to find the answer to your question in our autoresponse system, but your message has been forwarded to a technical support representative and will be answered as soon as possible. Responses from technicians can be expected within 2 to 3 business days. You may also want to take advantage of our live "General Product Information Chat Session" twice a week 10am-12pm PDT every Tuesday and 3pm-5pm every Thursday on Talk City. Channel for Video and Graphics: #diamond Channel for the Communications: #diamond_modem IRC Server: chat.talkcity.com:6667 Regards, Diamond Multimedia Technical Support From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:05:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: 103 Message-ID: Theosophy International welcomes Sheri D. Wahlen !! Person welcomes to: tssl@inlink.com Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:33:06 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Blow me down! Message-ID: <67d5cde6.353c2183@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-20 21:03:19 EDT, you write: > >Thoa Tran writes >>whipped carrot... >> >>Thoa :o) > >S & M, huh? > >Alan (aka Eggbert) No, that would make my girlfriend jealous. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:31:37 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Blow me down! Message-ID: <914cdfe5.353c212a@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-20 18:14:45 EDT, you write: >You're wasting a perfectly good carrot. Why blow a carrot up when you can >make carrot cake, sauteed carrot, carrot soup, whipped carrot... > >Thoa :o) because I don't like carrots Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:04:02 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: e-mail addresses of TSA Elected BOD Message-ID: <353C28C2.D1A395BD@gate.net> Greetings, Everyone who has an e-mail address can be found on a search engine. If you are interested try 'Yahoo', 'Excite', 'Netscape', 'The Big Blue Book'. -K- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:08:07 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: e-mail addresses of TSA Elected BOD Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980421000807.01082100@mail.eden.com> At 01:04 AM 4/21/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Greetings, > >Everyone who has an e-mail address can be found on a search engine. If >you are interested try 'Yahoo', 'Excite', 'Netscape', 'The Big Blue >Book'. >-K- > Thanks for the info. I still don't understand why any elected official wants to keep e-mail address confidential. let me wait and see when we get a reply. -mkr- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:01:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: Blow me down! Message-ID: <19980421140118.2706.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> >St. Alan of Thoa wrote: > You're wasting a perfectly good carrot. Why blow a carrot up when you can > make carrot cake, sauteed carrot, carrot soup, whipped carrot... > > Thoa :o) Hey, now that's more like it! If I'm going to get disembodied, I want to at least look good doing it. --------- On a more serious note, I just discovered that there may have been a sword used by the Hebrews (although I am not sure of the time period) called "The Hand of God." Apparently, one side of the primary blade was hammered as to create a whistling-type noise on the backswing. The sound it made was referred to as "The Voice of God." I am not sure if the source is accurate, (as it is hearsay, quoted by a friend from a text I have never seen), but I was curious if anyone on this list has come across this info. I haven't flipped through the Bible yet, but I'm wondering if the hand and voice of god was ever a reference to this weapon... The picture that was drawn for me seems to reflect a very advanced metallurgy. In fact, I'm quite skeptical. If there is any interest, I'll try to 1) get the drawing scanned, and/or 2) Find the source and perhaps get a picture and info from it. In good spirits, Carrot w/ a dash of white wine. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:42:37 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Tepidity! Message-ID: To All TI members. In todays's post, Kym mentioned apparent tepidity among TI members. Only this week I have been pondering on the idea of an online "TI Newsletter" but have been uncertain what form it might take. Certainly no one wants an endless series of seriously biased articles from me, so what would go in it? Why [stuns self into awake state] - the seriously biased work of the members! So ... I am officially asking all (online only at this point) TI members to e-mail me with short articles about the work they are doing, studies they are undertaking, research, outreach, etc. etc. which can go into the proposed Newsletter, which would be posted on TI-L only. To this end I am setting up a mailbox for such articles, which therefore please send same to the e-mail address ti-news@nellie2.demon.co.uk - *and only to that address* I may have to edit contributions if they are too long, or repetitive, but I hope, with your co-operation, to issue a totally unedited Newsletter, so that we all know what we are doing - a difficult thing in this day and age! LET'S HEAR IT FOR "TI" !!! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 05:54:02 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1502 Message-ID: <47e31082.353b1b3d@aol.com> How did you come up with a handle like that? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:53:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Belief in the beyond Message-ID: <199804201453.KAA26505@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> In today's USA Today, a box on the lower left of the front page contains the following info: Adults today vs. 1976 who say they believe "somewhat" in: 1998 1976 Spiritualism 52% 12% Faith healing 45% 10% Astrology 37% 17% UFOs 30% 24% Reincarnation 25% 9% Fortunetelling 14% 4% Interesting news for the ARE and/or students of the readings, as well as for Theosophists. Comments? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:49:48 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1502 Message-ID: <409bfde8.353b6e9d@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-20 06:00:40 EDT, you write: >How did you come up with a handle like that? > > who are you asking? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:52:28 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Belief in the beyond Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-20 11:20:33 EDT, you write: >Adults today vs. 1976 who say they believe "somewhat" in: > 1998 1976 >Spiritualism 52% 12% >Faith healing 45% 10% >Astrology 37% 17% >UFOs 30% 24% >Reincarnation 25% 9% >Fortunetelling 14% 4% > >Interesting news for the ARE and/or students of the readings, as >well as for Theosophists. Comments? > > Actually, it is rather scary. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:01:22 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: e-mail addresses of TSA Elected BOD Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980420160122.00d1031c@mail.eden.com> It may be recalled, on 4/14/98 I faxed a letter to John Algeo, National President of TSA, inquiring about the e-mail addresses of TSA BOD. Today I received the following letter by snailmail. FYI MKR TSA Letterhead April 16, 1998 Dear Mr. Ramadoss: In response to your 14th April fax, some of the National Officers have asked their email addresses not be published. However we will send your request to each of the members of the National Board. Sincerely, Donna E Wimberley Secretary to the President ------------------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 03:05:29 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Blow me down! Message-ID: >poor Carrot: > >>I'm beginning to feel a little hostility here... >> >> >Bad Heretic: >No, no , no, no hostility, merely a bit of technical info from one who really >likes to blow things up. > >Chuck the Heretic You're wasting a perfectly good carrot. Why blow a carrot up when you can make carrot cake, sauteed carrot, carrot soup, whipped carrot... Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 03:07:39 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Rumi Message-ID: >Thoa, > >I have not read any poetry by Rumi. Would you recommend something? > >Julien Hi Julien, There are two web sites that you might want to look at for more information on Rumi. http://www.ccnet.com/~rudra/maypop.htm#Rumi http://www.armory.com/~thrace/sufi/ A short book that might be a good introduction is Unseen Rain, by John Moyne and Coleman Barks, ISBN 0-939660-16-4 It's some poems from the "Divan", his collection of poetry from his time with Shams, who functions as his guru and friend. To understand the process that Rumi had with Shams, I'm reposting (from Theos-Talk) my definition of the process of the guru-chela relationship (which, ironically, is from my post on trusting your inner self as the Guru): The process of Guru-Chela relationship involves the Chela projecting his/her inner light onto the Guru. In this process, the Chela serves, respects, and meditates on the Guru's form. The Guru, entrusted with the student's inner being, acts as a reflector for the Chela, and eventually gives the student's inner being back to the student once it is strongly formed. I hope you enjoy Rumi! When reading poetry, remember that a cubic centimeter of space contains more energy than the energy of total matter combined. Mathematical fact! Or...less is more...or...contemplate on the negative, the unseen... Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 03:08:25 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Eggbert Message-ID: >How did you come up with a handle like that? Eggbert the Divine was christened with that name after he sold me his sainthood. We negotiated either on the Act list or via private e-mail. Since he sold me St. Alan for .50, he is not allowed to use that name anymore due to the internet name rights act. Thus, Julien, to clear up your confusion, you shall address the entity previously named St. Alan by the name of Eggbert the Divine, and you can call me St. Alan of Thoa. Your Saintliness, St. Alan of Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:06:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1502 Message-ID: Drpsionic writes >In a message dated 98-04-20 06:00:40 EDT, you write: > >>How did you come up with a handle like that? >> >> > >who are you asking? > >Chuck the Heretic Me. Alan (aka as Eggbert, as bestowed by Thoa) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:02:40 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1502 Message-ID: ZZZLEEPER writes >How did you come up with a handle like that? Playing e-mail jokes with Thoa. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:08:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Blow me down! Message-ID: Thoa Tran writes >whipped carrot... > >Thoa :o) S & M, huh? Alan (aka Eggbert) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:01:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: TI Registration. Message-ID: Welcome to Ian! Ian's e-mail address at present is a ship at sea. Maybe I should post this to ACT-L as well? [*Joke*] Personal welcomes to: foinstby@bp.com ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Dear Alan, Yours all received. Thankyou. Yes please. Register me to Theosophy International. I've been a Blavatsky fan for years, but I tend to do things on my own. Who knows, TI membership might expand my horizons a bit. Will take your advice and subscribe to the other group too. (Theos-l) - Alan Regards, Ian McRae Grampian Frontier --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 03:38:01 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: The "Eternal Present: and KARMA Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-18 23:22:25 EDT, you write: >I'm beginning to feel a little hostility here... > > No, no , no, no hostility, merely a bit of technical info from one who really likes to blow things up. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:48:07 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1499 Message-ID: <7e59063b.353a2ac8@aol.com> Thoa, I have not read any poetry by Rumi. Would you recommend something? Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:55:47 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1499 Message-ID: Eggbert the Divine? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:10:34 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: SD Symposium Program Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980419211034.00747940@mail.eden.com> >Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:34:45 -0400 >From: AStrycker >To: M K Ramadoss >Subject: SD Symposium Program >MK, > >The tentative program for the SD Symposium has been set, and the website >has been updated showing authors and paper titles. > > > >The actual papers haven't been received (not actually due until May 1) and >aren't yet available. > >The meeting announcement hard copy will be put in the mail >shortly--admittedly very late. Due to the delays, pre-registration has >been extended to May 11 and the $10 penalty for not pre-registering and for >registering at the meeting has been waived. > >Again, your help in distributing this information is very much appreciated. > >Arden Strycker, Secretary >Midwest Federation, TSA > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 03:00:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1499 Message-ID: ZZZLEEPER writes >Eggbert the Divine? Yes? Brought to you from West Cornwall, UK From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:10:34 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: SD Symposium Program Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980419211034.00747940@mail.eden.com> >Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:34:45 -0400 >From: AStrycker >To: M K Ramadoss >Subject: SD Symposium Program >MK, > >The tentative program for the SD Symposium has been set, and the website >has been updated showing authors and paper titles. > > > >The actual papers haven't been received (not actually due until May 1) and >aren't yet available. > >The meeting announcement hard copy will be put in the mail >shortly--admittedly very late. Due to the delays, pre-registration has >been extended to May 11 and the $10 penalty for not pre-registering and for >registering at the meeting has been waived. > >Again, your help in distributing this information is very much appreciated. > >Arden Strycker, Secretary >Midwest Federation, TSA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:18:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: The "Eternal Present: and KARMA Message-ID: <19980419031857.24607.rocketmail@send1e.yahoomail.com> > > In a message dated 98-04-17 05:28:23 EDT, you write: > > >What's the sound of one carrot exploding? > > > >Thoa :o) >---Drpsionic wrote: > Depends on how you do it. If you use an m80, the usual procedure, the > explosion of the device will drown out any noise from the carrot. If you > superheat the carrot, however, the water vapor in the carrot will cause a > rather nice banging noise which is guaranteed to shock the neighbors. > > Chuck the Heretic I'm beginning to feel a little hostility here... --- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 00:18:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: The "Eternal Present: and KARMA Message-ID: <19980417071854.6636.rocketmail@send1d.yahoomail.com> Life is like a carrot...just when you think you've found yourself a nice spot in the earth, someone comes along and yanks you out of your tranquility. Geez, Thoa. Now I'm really paranoid. :^P --- }->>>> > Thoa Tran writes > >If we somehow blow up the earth, that will disturb the balance of our > >galaxy, and on and on. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:18:47 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: The "Eternal Present: and KARMA Message-ID: >Life is like a carrot...just when you think you've found yourself a >nice spot in the earth, someone comes along and yanks you out of your >tranquility. > >Geez, Thoa. Now I'm really paranoid. :^P > >--- >}->>>> What's the sound of one carrot exploding? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:20:24 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: The "Eternal Present: and KARMA Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-17 05:28:23 EDT, you write: >What's the sound of one carrot exploding? > >Thoa :o) Depends on how you do it. If you use an m80, the usual procedure, the explosion of the device will drown out any noise from the carrot. If you superheat the carrot, however, the water vapor in the carrot will cause a rather nice banging noise which is guaranteed to shock the neighbors. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:16:58 -0400 (EDT) From: John E Mead InfoAvenue Operations Subject: TS (Pasadena) Theosophy and Modern Science Message-ID: <01IVY75E1TMG91XYYW@InfoAve.Net> Theosophy and Modern Science May 30 =97 31, 1998 =20 The American Section of The Theosophical Society, Pasadena, is = sponsoring a two day conference on theosophy and modern science. There = is no admission charge and all are welcome to attend. The following are = the subjects to be presented: =20 The Quest for Human Origins Ina Belderis, PhD Geography=20 Reference Librarian=20 Theosophical University Library =20 The Quantum Theory of Reincarnation Amit Goswami, PhD Professor of Physics University of Oregon Author: The Self-Aware Universe =20 Worlds within Worlds David Pratt, BA Languages =20 Merlin's Garden: Cosmic Floralmagna A visual presentation of the great flowers of the cosmos. Wynn Wolfe, = Artist =20 Humanity's Remote Senses in the Solar System David Doody, MA Human Development Senior Member Engineering Staff JPL =20 The Secret Doctrine and the Big Bang: Inner Impulses and Physical = Effects Bill Savage, MS Chemical Engineering =20 Theosophy and Medicine Richard Hiltner, MD, Homeopathic Physician =20 For meeting place, and schedule of events see The American Section = Homepage. =20 ------=_NextPart_001_010D_01BD694E.E141E6C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Theosophy and = Modern=20 Science
May 30 = — 31,=20 1998
 
The=20 American Section of The Theosophical Society, Pasadena, is = sponsoring a two=20 day conference on theosophy and modern science.  There is no = admission=20 charge and all are welcome to attend.  The following are the = subjects to be=20 presented:
 
The Quest for Human=20 Origins
Ina Belderis, PhD = Geography 
Reference = Librarian 
Theosophical University = Library
 
The Quantum = Theory of=20 Reincarnation
Amit Goswami, = PhD
Professor of = Physics
University of = Oregon
Author: The = Self-Aware=20 Universe
 
Worlds within = Worlds
David Pratt, BA=20 Languages
 
Merlin's = Garden: Cosmic=20 Floralmagna
A visual presentation = of the great=20 flowers of the cosmos.  Wynn Wolfe, Artist
 
Humanity's = Remote Senses in=20 the Solar System
David Doody, MA Human = Development
Senior Member = Engineering Staff=20 JPL
 
The = Secret Doctrine=20 and the Big Bang: Inner Impulses and Physical = Effects
Bill Savage, MS = Chemical=20 Engineering
 
Theosophy and = Medicine
Richard Hiltner, MD, = Homeopathic=20 Physician
 
For meeting place, and schedule of = events see The American Section=20 Homepage.
  From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:01:01 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: THEOS-L digest 1487 Message-ID: Hi Julien, It is more of a poetic description rather than a factual description. This is a description of the "Parent Space" that is the "ever present cause of all". The Stanza began with the Darkness, which is really not Darkness as we comprehend it. The Stanza I referred to it as "her", as a reference to its function, as the source of all that exists, as the Womb. But, if you would like, you can call it Dilbert. :o) Have you read any poetry by Rumi? To a layman's eye, his poems are just love poems to his lover. In actuality, his poems are love poems to the unknowable all. Thoa :o) >Thoa, > >I found your treatise on mystic experiences enlightening. But why do you use >the term Mother, why the genderization? > >Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:59:07 -0700 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: The "Eternal Present: and KARMA Message-ID: Dallas: >CHAOS: > >A quote comes to mind: "A chaos to the senses, a cosmos to the >reason." As I view it, unless there was a vast array of >interacting laws we could not exist. You might say that your >Universe is what you see and build, and mine, is mine, and so on. >However a consensus would seem to demonstrate that this plurality >merges into a unity of perception and an agreement of >descriptions ( making allowance for gaps in time and place, as >well as point of view ) We could also say that all of our behavior, from rock, etc., has been organized by the whole of cosmos. When we scrutinize something within its limited area, its movement appears chaotic and random. When we look at it from a greater whole, we see that it is organized according to the greater whole. Our life and causes appear random. Yet, when you look at it from the point of view of the cosmos, there is purpose to the in-breath and out-breath that all life is part of. In this way, Karma makes sense. Everything is interconnected. Every action was the result of countless influences, and itself will be an influence, actions from matter smaller than the electron to actions greater than the universe. This also includes action that is implicit in space. Space and matter are all part of the great water. We are the drops that form the circle of waves that eventually disappears into the calmness of the liquid space. Viewed from this way, chaos and randomness is only a subset of the orderliness of all that IS. Mathematically, physicists have calculated that any small area of space has more energy than the energy of all matter put together. >You may fly, physically, to Los Angeles where I live, but only a >person detached from both of us would see the motion and the >relativity of our physical positions as they change. And what about the person watching the person detached from both of you, and on and on? The action of you and the other person is dependent on the observer, and the action and position of the observer, whether the observer is traveling at your speed, or the other person's speed, etc. There is no such thing as the objective world within our scope. Only regarding "Parent Space" could we consider objectivity. >Theosophy introduces the concept that universal Law (Karma) >operates on the moral plane (which is not defined, though the >legislation efforts of most countries try to make those tenets of >behavior and fairness between persons precise, and, usually >fail). Does Karma have to operate on a moral plane? Could Karma be viewed as IS, as interconnectedness of the flow of the ocean? >Now, if everything would be a "Chaos," then what would be the >purpose to waste time and energy on seeking to make order or >sense out of it? Maybe that is the source of adopting a >"personal God," which by being placed "outside" of the Universe >as its "Regent," gives us a sense of fatalism and >irresponsibility. How much harder, then is it to adopt the >concept of continuing and very actual self-responsibility ? I don't think it is ultimately Chaos. It could not be. Chaos is only a subset of the order that ultimately IS. It really doesn't matter whether we make sense of any of this, because it will always BE. I think it is our own personal ego that needs to make sense of it all. For me, the knowledge that my action influences countless actions is enough for self-responsibility. We feel pleasure and pain. We know others feel pleasure and pain. We know that bad actions will affect someone or something. We also know that bad actions may come back to us. If we abuse our children, our children may grow up to abuse others. If there are enough unloved children in a nation, then it could be a nation of crime and abuse. If the world is full of insensitive and abusive people, the population may eventually annihilate itself through war and destruction. If we somehow blow up the earth, that will disturb the balance of our galaxy, and on and on. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:17 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The "Eternal Present: and KARMA Message-ID: Thoa Tran writes >If we somehow blow up the earth, that will disturb the balance of our >galaxy, and on and on. Oh dear! Eggbert the Divine. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:16:14 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Last Bylaws Change Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980414211614.00857100@mail.eden.com> Many who are new to TSA/Maillists may not be fully aware of the full details of how the bylaws were changed last time. During that time, there was very heavy traffic on theos-l discussing all aspects of it. If anyone has access to the archives of the messages of that period, reposting it would be very educative to all. As far as any message I have posted, anyone is welcome to "re-post" them. As for other posters messages, some may require you to get their clearance and permission because the poster's copyright rights. mkr the various things that happened During the last bylaws change, there were a From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:38:58 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye Subject: Daniel Caldwell's name in the header Message-ID: <353439E2.69C6@azstarnet.com> Thank you Paul for your reply. Let me first quote what Hannah Wolff said about Madame Blavatsky allegedly smoking hashish: "It was evident from the first that she smoked tobacco to great excess, frequently, as she told me, using a pound a day. I soon learned also that she was addicted to the use of haschish. She several times endeavored to persuade me to try the effect upon myself. She said she had smoked opium, seen its visions and dreamed its dreams, but that the beatitudes enjoyed in the use of haschish were as heaven to its hell. She said she found nothing to compare with its effects in arousing and stimulating the imagination." THE RELIGO- PHILOSOPHICAL JOURNAL, Jan. 2, 1892, P. 502 Albert Rawson gives his account of HPB and her use of hashish in this short passage: "She had tried hasheesh in Cairo with success, and she again indulged in it in this city under the care of myself and Dr. Edward Sutton Smith, who had a large experience with the drug among his patients at Mount Lebanon, Syria. She said, 'Hasheesh multiplies ones life a thousandfold. My experiences are real as if they wer ordinary events of actual life. Ah! I have ean xplanation. It is a recollection of my former existences, my previous incarnations. It is a wonderful drug, and it clears up a profound mystery." (FRANK LESLIE'S POPULAR MONTHLY, Feb. 1892, p. 202.) I believe this is all of the testimony concerning Madame Blavatsky's alleged use of hashish. Is there more? We can all agree that Rawson and Wolff gave testimony to Madame Blavatsky's use of hashish. They said it but should one believe them? Compare this testimony to what W.E. Coleman said about Madame Blavatsky drinking liquor. Coleman had 4 witnesses including Mrs. Coleman and the famous medium DD Home. They said it but should one believe them? And if one is inclined to believe the hashish accounts, why not ALSO believe the accounts of HPB drinking liquor? Again compare the testimony of Rawson, Wolff, Mrs. Coleman, Home, etc. with the lengthy DETAILED testimony of Emma Coulomb and Vsevolod Solovyov to Madame Blavatsky's alleged gross impostures. Emma Coulomb gives page after page of alleged evidence (if considered true) that would convict HPB of faking occult phenomena as well as faking the appearances of the Masters Morya and Koot Hoomi. The same concerning Solovyov. I wonder how many Blavatsky students (including K. Paul Johnson) and skeptics have even read E. Coulomb's pamphlet? Should one believe Coulomb and Solovyov just because they testified to these things? But if one believes the accounts of HPB smoking hashish and drinking alcohol, what about the detailed accounts of HPB's imposture related by Coulomb and Solovyov? And it should be pointed out that even Hannah Wolff in her account also relates incidents of Madame performing fake "occult" phenomena. Unfortunately, not many Blavatsky students are knowledgeable of all this negative testimony about HPB. Many just assume it must be false. Again many skeptics of HPB just assume the negative accounts must be true. "Well, they said it, didn't they? Only a fool or true believer would say otherwise!" Few students and researchers take the time to actually analyse the testimony, look for confirming evidence, etc. etc. How does one determine what is true and what is false? Nowadays many Theosophical students don't care one way or the other! Daniel Caldwell K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > A digest or two ago there was yet ANOTHER post with my name in > the header from Daniel. Flattered to see that my name makes it > into such a large proportion of his pieces, I must confess that > I don't have any opinion of the accusations concerning HPB > drinking, not having read the primary sources he mentions. > > But why, Daniel, are you more interested in speculating what *I* > might make of the evidence than in telling us what *you* make of > it? Why not explain and defend your own conclusions > concerning HPB's use of alcohol and hashish? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:46:35 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1487 Message-ID: Thoa, I found your treatise on mystic experiences enlightening. But why do you use the term Mother, why the genderization? Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:38:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: HPB and hashish Message-ID: <19980414173849.9212.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> ---"K. Paul Johnson" wrote: > > > Dallas TenBroeck writes: > > > > I read a posting dated April 6th 1998 from "dport@ozmail" in which > > it is alleged without any corroborative reference given that HPB > > smoked hashish daily. This appears to be a deliberate insult aimed > > at HPB. But it demands evidence that supports it. >But there are two sources for her use of hashish earlier in > her life (again, the *daily* bit is unsupported): Albert Rawson's > article in the February 1892 issue of Frank Leslie's Illustrated, > entitled "Madame Blavatsky-- A Theosophical Occult Apology," and > an article by Hannah Wolff in (I think) Two Worlds. At any rate > this source is listed in some available bibliographies, including > Marion Meade's if I'm not mistaken. > > > > If this is true, may we have a reference that is reliable? > > Somehow I doubt that you will accept Rawson or Wolff as reliable, > precisely because they make these statements about hashish. But > that is circular reasoning. I have also read about it in one of those Time-Life books...(Mysteries of the Unknown...etc etc.) but they probably got the information from the same sources. All throughout their article on HPB, they were trying to declare HPB a fraud, it seemed. That is the only place where I personally found reference to the hashish. I think the book was called "Occult Phenomenon"...not sure. JST. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:08:23 +0900 From: dport@ozemail.com.au Subject: the drugs don't work Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980413230823.006cf7cc@ozemail.com.au> MEMO from Cult of the Yellow Sign to list recipients- Dallas wrote a few days ago: >> > I read a posting dated April 6th 1998 from "dport@ozmail" in which >> > it is alleged without any corroborative reference given that HPB >> > smoked hashish daily. This appears to be a deliberate insult aimed >> > at HPB. But it demands evidence that supports it. Sorry I have not responded to this earlier as I have been away on Easter Holidays. I humor the rest of my family by attending their pagan ritual and imbibing the chocolate sacrament. i would like to thank K. Paul Johnson for responding on my behalf and don't think I need to bring up any more points. As to the issue of whether she used absinthe etc I think it is hardly relevant. George Washington smoked marijuana, JFK used methamphetamine and who 'nose' what wild willy snorts. To me whether HPB smoked hash or drank is irrelevant and in no way changes mt opinion of her. She was truly a remarkable woman - every week at I see her solemn gaze staring at me in the Lodge Hall and think of her works and how incredible they were considering how little respect woman garnered in religious and spiritual matters before the turn of the century. >> As for supporting evidence; of course she could not have smoked >> it daily after the founding of the TS without someone noticing >> it. But there are two sources for her use of hashish earlier in >> her life (again, the *daily* bit is unsupported) I must apologize for the use of the word daily as I do not indeed have any evidence to support this. however most people I know who use Cannabis Sativa for medicinal purposes (see Chris Conrads excellent book Hemp for Health) would smoke 2-3 times a day. I imagine that HPB would have had access to hashish easily whilst in Madras - I managed to purchase some within 2 hours of landing and was constantly accosted on the beaches to make purchases. In India Cannabis is a way of life and one of the central Ayurvedic medicines. For Theosophists to disregard drug use because it doesn't fit with their ideals is small-minded. Richard Nixon once stated that Timothy Leary was the most dangerous man alive - and in his terms he was probably right. The last thing those in authority want is for people to start thinking for themselves. As such I see psychadelic drugs as the ultimate theosophical aid. >If what Blavatsky wrote was true, then it does not matter if she smoked opium >while standing on her head buck naked singing Hava Nagila. >Chuck the Heretic And Amen to you Chuck. Though watch out todays heretics are tomorrows heroes, but not usually until after their death. Hail Eris! D. Graeme Porter aka NOS (mighty, the) There is only one God, he is the Sun God, Ra! Ra! Ra! * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:59:18 +0200 From: wichm@xs4all.nl Subject: Paul Brunton Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980413165918.008fa850@xs4all.nl> I wonder whether any comments have already been made in this newsgroup on Jeffrey Masson's book: 'My father's guru'. It is a painful exposé of an an author who has been widely read all over the world. Michael Rogge http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:43:48 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ES & TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980411214348.006b9ae0@mail.eden.com> Here is a msg from theos-l being reposted for the benefit of many new subscribers who may not seen it. It is very well written summary. MKR >Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:43:02 -0700 >From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins >Message-Id: <9604232343.AA00230@toto.csustan.edu> >To: theos-l@vnet.net, to@toto.csustan.edu >Subject: re: the ES Alexis writes: >In my time with the T.S. I too have known many people who were >members of the E.S. Some of them were people who I really loved >and cared for and others were people I felt were simply >"ego-tripping". They were all very sincere and veru dedicated. >But their Dedication was primarily to the Esoteric Section and >it's views of it's own agenda and needs. JHE On the other hand, the ES is supposed to be dedicated to the needs of the TS. But here is where I think the SNAFU set in: After the Judge split, the Adyar TS fell into complete control of Annie Besant who kept the organization at a low key until Olcott died. Remember, Olcott did not approve of the ES, and was afraid that his successor might gain control of both the Presidency of the TS and the Outer Headship of the ES, thus giving that person too much power. Olcott's worst fear is, of course, what actually happened. But when Besant attained the Presidency in 1907, she was already running out of new material to give to her ES students. Between 1895 and 1907 she wrote commentaries on HPB's ES Instructions. She got a lot of mileage out of them, and even spun of a book or two (~The Ancient Wisdom~ and ~A Study in Consciousness~). But after a while, endless playing off of the six ES Instructions gets rather old, and evidently Besant lacked the knowledge (or access to it) to create new ES Instructions that would expand upon and go more deeply into the body of teachings already extant. My sense of HPB's original Instructions is that they were very quickly moving towards some very profound correlations that would have introduced a whole deeper layer of study and insight. Though Besant (IMO) lacked the knowledge to go more deeply into the Theosophical teachings, she did have an associate who had the imagination to take these teachings into a very different direction. In 1908, Besant brought exiled CW Leadbeater back into the ES fold, though it was under the protest of some of the most important members. Among others, A.P. Sinnett, G.R.S. Mead, and Bertram Keightley left the TS in protest to CWL's reinstatement. Therefore, CWL with the help of GS Arundale became the source for the new ES revelations, that included the establishment of a new religion (Liberal Catholic Church) as a vehicle for the return of the Christ (Krishnamurti), and a whole litany of ceremonies for the creation of spiritual forms for the spiritual upliftment of the world (e.g. Co-Masonry and the Egyptian Rite). That early material speaks endlessly of the initiations of CWL, GSA, AB, K, not to mention Oscar Kollestrom. Revelations from the Maitreya (an individual in neo-theosophy), M., KH, and the Maha Chohan himself praising the work of the Theosophical Workers. When this became tiresome, Besant was always at hand to answer the latest anti-Leadbeater flair up, and to expel members and Lodges who didn't play her game. Thus, the new ES material came to replace the rather heady philosophical discussions written in HPB's day. By 1929, Krishnamurti's role as the world teacher put into obscuration the original intents of the TS as outlined in HPB's writings, and clearly shown in the Mahatma Letters. The Theosophical Society was no longer a provocative and progressive philosophical school, but became a cult dedicated to the adoration of its World Teacher. With Krishnamurti in the foreground, there was no longer a need for an ES, so it was closed. But Krishnamurti's resignation in 1930 necessitated its reopening after only a year. By this time, AB and CWL were getting old. CWL was already withdrawing into his LCC activities in Australia--becoming more are more remote from the TS. This transition had been building up for some time, so C. Jinarajadasa became more and more involved in the continuation of the ES. With the death of CWL in 1934, CJ was on his own to produce new ES material--but apparently he lacked CWL's vivid and detailed imagination. Arundale was still supplying some material, but with the loss of Krishnamurti, things were much less exciting, and K's defection was hard to explain. Fortunately, the war in Europe saved good ol' CJ from having to dwell upon the Krishnamurti question. With the new political developments, he was able to focus attention on a new subject-- the infiltration of the Black magicians into the TS and world affairs. Black magicians were everywhere. They were more numerous than cockroaches in a Calcutta roadside kitchen, and they were the blame for every change that did not meet with CJ's personal approval. Not only were the Black Magicians influencing European and American political leaders, but even worse, they created Jazz and Modern Art! Even Mahatma Gandhi was influenced by Black Magicians--how else can you explain why he did not agree with Besant's plans for India? ES material during this period was utterly pre-occupied with the plots of Black Magicians, and CJ had lots of political advice concerning who were the good guys and who where the badies on the political scene. Sri Ram took over in 1954, and the ES material changed again to a banal and devotional form of Hinduism, but became a little more intellectual when Taimni finally took over. Now it appears that Radha has shifted the ES towards an even more contentless Krishnamurtisque "truth in within yourself" philosophy. Yet, through this whole incredible history, from 1895 onwards, the ES was responsible for the well being of the TS. ES Members were expected to be active in TS Lodges and to make sure that they stayed on the right track. But what is the "right track" today? Arundale abandoned all mention of Krishnamurti once the World Teacher resigned his post. CW Leadbeater's writings remained popular from the 1930's through the 60's, and became the trademark of Adyar Theosophy. But with the publication of Tillett's ~The Elder Brother,~ CWL is no longer realistically defensible, and his writing are being de- emphasized. Blavatsky and her original program was long ago abandoned to lip service. Further, the ES today has grown so weak that it can no longer fill its role as guardian of the TS. For the first time, the Lodges are left without direction and content. Some Lodges have occupied themselves with Sufi dancing, others with Alice Bailey, others with Sai Baba, others with the Celestine Prophesy. When I first joined theos-l over two years ago, one of the first messages I recall was a member saying that the TS has no dogma--therefore no teachings. That the TS has no dogma is happily correct, after a period of covert dogma from 1910 to 1970. But unhappily, he was also correct that the TS has no teachings. For they were abandoned almost 90 years ago for a new set of teachings that blew up in everyone's face in 1930. And the dust is still yet to clear. So, Alexis, sadly, I have to agree with you. The ES had a negative impact on the TS because it veered from the original aims, and never found its way back. Sincere and devoted workers with the best of motivations can work to further the aims of the most ill conceived plans as well as the productive ones. IMO, its time to start over. JHE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:11:02 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: A Comment about ES Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980412001102.006b29a4@mail.eden.com> We have had discussions about ES and can expect more. However, I think it is relevant to post the following part of which is an excerpt from a msg I posted on theos-l quite some time ago. I have edited and added a few additional comments. I felt it is very important to put the organization and its members in proper perspective. Otherwise misleading conclusions may be draws by members especially those may not know much about the organization. I have *personally* * known* *many many* members of the TS who are also members of Esoteric Section who have rendered invaluable services to Theosophy and Theosophical Society. In many countries and in many lodges, the vibrancy and the vitality of these lodges are due to these members. Even today this is the case all over the world (there may be some rare exceptions.). Most of the members are really earnest ones who have the first object as their guiding star in their lives. As these are *facts*, let us show our gratitude to these members for what they have done for Theosophy and Theosophical Society. Let "Ungratitude be not one of our vices." ....doss PS: On the other hand, the potential is very great for the National Leaders (including those who hold top positions in the ES but not in the TS) to make use of the contacts to make the ES members vote as a bloc for their candidates. But doing so is not illegal. However fairness and justice for which Theosophists are supposed to stand for, requires that all prospective candidates are provided unrestricted access to the membership list so that they too can contact the voters and present their case which is but true democracy and can only strengthen TSA and stop the continued downward slide in the membership. Illinois law does provide full access to membership lists so even if a member wants to keep his/her address as secret. It is like the voter list. Once you are on it, it is no longer confidential information. It my hope this can happen with the help of the issues ACT has put forward. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:37:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Aries; Easter, Passover & Spring Message-ID: jim meier writes > >It is Spring! A new cycle begins for all of us and each of us. The full >moon of Aries occurs today at 6:24pm EDT (10:24pm GMT). A group >meditation >will be held then with the theme of "Letting in the Light," and all are >invited to participate. Here it is letting in the rain! Alan Brought to you from West Cornwall, UK From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:35:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: K Paul Johnson on HPB, her Alleged Use of Hashish, etc. Message-ID: Drpsionic writes >If what Blavatsky wrote was true, then it does not matter if she smoked opium >while standing on her head buck naked singing Hava Nagila. As long as it was not on the Sabbath. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:42:23 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: K Paul Johnson on HPB, her Alleged Use of Hashish, etc. Message-ID: <35301BFE.D5193698@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > Drpsionic writes > >If what Blavatsky wrote was true, then it does not matter if she smoked opium > >while standing on her head buck naked singing Hava Nagila. > > As long as it was not on the Sabbath. It IS, however, going to take a LONG time to get the image out of my head... Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:45:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Mark K.'s Theosophical Survey Message-ID: Caldwell/Graye writes >Also thanks for mentioning me! Should I be >: ) or : ( ? > >Daniel Caldwell :( ) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:18:50 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye Subject: K Paul Johnson on HPB, her Alleged Use of Hashish, etc. Message-ID: <352EE11A.82A@azstarnet.com> K Paul Johnson on HPB, her Alleged Use of Hashish, etc. Concerning Dallas TenBroeck's post and K. Paul Johnson's reply about whether HPB smoked hashish or not, one must ask: Are these reports true or are they false? And how do we determine their reliability? Mr. Johnson mentions the testimonies of Albert Rawson and Hannah Wolff in which they claim that Madame Blavatsky smoked hashish. Does Mr. Johnson believe these testimonies? I assume Mr. Tenbroeck would not. And if K. Paul Johnson and others believe the hashish stories, do they ALSO believe the stories that H.P. Blavatsky drank intoxicating liquors? >From my Blavatsky files, I have an article by William Emmette Coleman titled: "The Alleged Use of Intoxicating Liquors by Madame Blavatsky" published in THE RELIGIO-PHILOSOPHICAL JOURNAL (Chicago, Illinois), April 7, 1888, p. 7. Mr. Coleman writes: "I am not in the habit of making allegations, such as this concerning Mme. Blavatsky's use of stimulating beverages, unless I have substantial, trustworthy evidence of their truth. In this instance, my evidence concerning this lady's drinking habits in the particulars stated was derived from the following sources: (1) My late wife was a resident of the same house with Mme. Blavatsky in Philadelphia in 1874 or 1875, on Girard street. . . . . My wife was one of the most scrupulously truthful persons I ever met, and I am confident that her statements concerning Madame Blavatsky's [drinking, etc.] habits can be implicitly relied upon. (2) Several years before his death, Mr. D.D. Home, the celebrated medium corresponded with me concerning Madame Blavatsky. He informed me of a number of episodes in her life that were known to him, all of a very damaging character. . . . I had no cause to doubt the truth of Mr. Home's statements concerning the Madame's personal habits, and I was and am convinced that all that he said was true, including her use of intoxicants. (3 and 4) I have been told many details of Mme. B's life, both while she was in Paris and in New York, by two ladies formerly intimately associated with her. One of these ladies . . . gave me a detailed history of the numerous impostures practiced by the Madame alike upon Olcott and others in New York. . . . I was and am convinced of the truth of the statements made to me by these two ladies, including those anent her personal habits. . . ." So we have Daniel D. Home, Mrs. Coleman, and two other ladies telling W.E. Coleman of Madame Blavatsky's use of intoxicating liquors. Are their testimonies true? Reliable? If Johnson and others believe the hashish stories, what about the "liquor" stories? Again, does Johnson and others believe the testimonies of Emma Coulomb in her 1884 book and Vsevolod S. Solovyov in his 1895 book concerning Madame Blavatsky's gross impostures? Madame Coulomb's and Mr. Solovyov's testimonies are QUITE DETAILED AND LENGTHY in comparison to the testimonies concerning Blavatsky's alleged uses of hashish AND liquor. But the question to answer about all these claims is: Are they true or false? And how can one determine their reliability/unreliability? Many Blavatsky students will indignantly dismiss these charges against H.P.B. but will probably show little if any interest in actually trying to determine whether the charges are true or not. I contend that thoughtful students and those inclined to the study of history might attempt to investigate the subject without apriori acceptance or rejection of the charges. Some food for thought. . . . Daniel H. Caldwell > Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:06:43 -0400 (EDT) > From: "K. Paul Johnson" > To: theos-l@vnet.net > Subject: HPB and hashish > Message-ID: <199804101606.MAA07840@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> > > > Dallas TenBroeck writes: > > > > I read a posting dated April 6th 1998 from "dport@ozmail" in which > > it is alleged without any corroborative reference given that HPB > > smoked hashish daily. This appears to be a deliberate insult aimed > > at HPB. But it demands evidence that supports it. > > Actually, if you had read other posts from the same source you > would realize it couldn't have been meant as an insult at all, > since the author promotes the use of visionary drugs. > > As for supporting evidence; of course she could not have smoked > it daily after the founding of the TS without someone noticing > it. But there are two sources for her use of hashish earlier in > her life (again, the *daily* bit is unsupported): Albert Rawson's > article in the February 1892 issue of Frank Leslie's Illustrated, > entitled "Madame Blavatsky-- A Theosophical Occult Apology," and > an article by Hannah Wolff in (I think) Two Worlds. At any rate > this source is listed in some available bibliographies, including > Marion Meade's if I'm not mistaken. > > > > If this is true, may we have a reference that is reliable? > > Somehow I doubt that you will accept Rawson or Wolff as reliable, > precisely because they make these statements about hashish. But > that is circular reasoning. > > > > If it is false may we have a retraction and an apology ! > > What assumptions underly your expectation that someone who says > something about HPB you don't like hearing owes you or "us" an > apology? > > > > Since HPB is not present to answer this calumny directly, allow me > > to PROTEST clearly and definitely on her behalf. > > I don't think she needs that service from you or that your > taking on the role of demander of proofs, demander of apologies, > and protester of alleged calumnies has any positive effect. > Again, what assumptions underly your taking on this role? > > > > It is cowardly to make accusations in the absence of a person, and > > especially after they are dead and unable to answer. > > > But as I understand the source, he doesn't view the allegations > at at all negative, quite the reverse. > > Let me articulate your apparent assumptions in an unflattering, > but honest attempt to get at the heart of the matter: > > 1. Anyone who makes any statement about HPB that *I personally* > regard as insulting, because it conflicts with my view of her, had > damn well better provide overwhelming legal proof of it, or else > withdraw said statement or apologize. They have *ME* to answer > to. > > 2. But I can make any statement about HPB that *I personally* > believe to be true, even knowing that it conflicts with views of > others on the list, without providing one iota of evidence for > it. These spiritual truths are beyond the need of proof to the > wayward souls who can't see their obvious and undeniable > accuracy. *I* answer to no one. > > How does that sound? Pretty dogmatic and self-centered, huh? > > PJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:59:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS & ES Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980411035952.006c8628@mail.eden.com> Following is one of the only known public statement made by the Head of ES, thirty years ago. It was posted on theos-l on Feb 21, 1997. Many may not have seen it. It may interest some. ======================================= SOME COMMENTS ON "THE T.S. AND THE E.S." N. SRI RAM In his article in The Canadian Theosophist (July-Aug. 1966) entitled "The T.S. and the E.S.", Mr. Dudley W. Barr has quoted the E.S. Pledge as formulated by H.P.B. and printed in the September 1888 issue of her magazine Lucifer, and says that in addition to the published version there was a pledge of obedience to the Outer Head, more precisely, "the orders of the Head of the Esoteric Section in all that concerns my relation with the Theosophical movement", changed by her a little later to "orders given through the Head of the Section in all that concerns my Theosophical duties and esoteric work, so far as my pledge to my Higher Self and my conscience sanction. "H.P.B. must have had her own reasons for offering such a pledge of obedience to the small group which constituted the Esoteric Section, as the Esoteric School was called in those days. But may I point out that the article is altogether wrong in assuming that that pledge of "absolute obedience as Mr. Barr terms it, continues up to the present time. Mr. Barr remarks that H.P.B. attempted to form a guru-chela relationship with the Esoteric Section members. That might have been so, but there is no warrant for the suggestion that such is the relationship now, or has been for many years in the past. As he has already mentioned me publicly as the present Outer Head of the E.S., let me quote what I said in my first address to the School, printed and sent to all its members, namely, that I consider myself "a student of the Wisdom, and not a spiritual guide". For I believe that anyone before he can teach must first be a learner, and in reality, each one must be his own guide in all matters of fundamental importance. I need not go over the past history of the E.S., as traced by Mr. Barr, but it is obvious that there have been in the past 75 years and more many changes and much. experimenting, even as there was for very many years with regard to the wording of the Objects of the Theosophical Society.There are members of the Theosophical Society in different countries, members also of the Esoteric School, believing in freedom of thought and individual understanding, who are persons as intelligent in every way and as devoted to the work of the Society as any other member. I venture to say that they would not have remained in the Esoteric School if the facts with regard to membership of the E.S. were anything like the picture painted in Mr. Barr's article. There is a reference to "privileges which the E.S. has assumed". I know of no privilege, except that in some places where the Society is active, the E.S. group is allowed to use one of the rooms for its meetings, and even this mainly for the reason that either the Lodge considers the E.S. group as a desirable tenant, devoted to the work and aims of the Society, or that members of the T.S. interested in the E.S. have given or give financial help in acquiring or maintaining the Lodge premises. With regard to the rooms at the T.S. headquarters at Adyar, used by the E.S., they were built out of moneys specially raised by E.S. members, and the E.S. has the use of those rooms with permission given by a resolution of the General Council of the Theosophical Society. This fact has been mentioned in The Theosophist. I am not aware of any "power" which the E.S. or members of the E.S. as such, exercise or can exercise in the T.S., nor has the E.S. any "position" in the Society, except that it is a body, all of whose members are members of the Theosophical Society, a body which has been in existence since H.P.B.'s days, whose aims in no way conflict with the objectives of the Society, and whose methods of work cannot possibly hinder the Society's work. Any members of the T.S. who desire to do so can form a class or group for special studies, and attempt to live a particular kind of life according to certain rules, and that is the description which best applies to the Esoteric School. It is no longer called the Esoteric Section, because it is a body which is completely independent of the T.S., although as I have pointed out, it has been treated with consideration by Lodges of the Society. It carries on its work silently, without fuss or propaganda, without levying any fees or attempting to attract members or seeking success in the ordinary sense. Mr. Barr's article quotes the official statement issued by Colonel Olcott, which stated that the E.S. "has no official or corporate connection with the T.S., save in the person of the President-Founder". But he had no administrative (or any other) control over the Esoteric Section, because it was concerned with teachings, and not with any other matter. Members of the T.S. who belong also to the E.S. are a very small minority, less than one-tenth of the Society as a whole, and in many of the Sections or cities the membership is far below even one-tenth. In Toronto, the Headquarters of the Canadian Section, the percentage is probably about one-sixtieth. Therefore, it is not really possible for the E.S. members to gain any control, let alone "considerable control over the T.S." as is stated in the article. So, as I see the whole position, there is nothing for the E.S. to "give up", because it has no "powers", no "privileges" and no "status" within the Society, except the consideration that may be given voluntarily by the T.S. members in the form of certain facilities for the E.S. work, knowing the general character of that body. If it did have any "power", privilege" or "position", I would be the first to propose that it should give up all that completely, without any reservation. [excepted from Canadian Theosophist, Nov-Dec 1966] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:59:47 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An article on TS/ES Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980411035947.006cc428@mail.eden.com> The following was posted on theos-l on Feb 21, 1997. It is being posted now as some may not have seen it and may be interested. THE ESOTERIC SCHOOL Members will welcome the opportunity to study the article in this issue by our President, Mr. N. Sri Ram, on the Esoteric School. A copy of my article "The T.S. and the E.S." had been given to Mr. Sri Ram at Salzburg with a request for a frank criticism of it. I told Mr. Sri Ram that if any of the information in the article was incorrect, or if any of the inferences drawn from the facts as I understood them were not correct, we would be very glad to draw attention to these in the next issue of the 'magazine. It is gratifying to learn that the pledge of obedience is no longer required of E.S. members. This was in existence for many years and had far-reaching effects on the policies of the Society; it was one of the strong objections to the E.S. Some of our Canadian members have been in the Society for many years and have personal knowledge of the conditions described in Candles in the Sun some of which came about through the hidden power of the E.S. There will doubtless be more correspondence in the magazine on the subject of the E.S., and, if so, I hope that this will result in a clarification of ideas for both T.S. and E.S. members alike on such matters as the function of the E.S., the reasons for its continued existence, its aims and objects, qualifications for joining, selection of members and other matters not clear in our minds. The secrecy surrounding the E.S. and the implied possession of an "esoteric" knowledge not available to non-members have helped to create the questioning doubt with which members regard the E.S. This is not confined to Canada, for members in other countries share our views. It is one of our organizational problems-and it seems to me that one way of solving it would be to give all members of the Society full and open information regarding the E.S. and its relationship to the general membership of the Society. In the report on the Salzburg Congress in the last issue of the magazine, the growing maturity of the Society was mentioned. This was most encouraging and augured well for the future of the Society. One bad to be at Salzburg and listen teethe lectures and take part in the discussions to feel the new questing spirit and to realize what a significant change had occurred in the past thirty years. Apparently changes have also occurred in the E.S. organization. Mr. Sri Ram's emphasis on independence of thought, the self-responsibility of members to exercise their own judgment, applies to all members, T.S. and E.S. alike. The continuation of the E.S. organization depends upon the E.S. members, as the T.S. members have no control over it. We must rely upon the unquestioned good faith of these members to decide whether in the interest of the Society this separateÄand separating-organization should continue in existence. -- D.W.Barr PS: Mr. Sri Ram's article is in posted as a separate message. [excerpted from the Canadian Theosophist, Nov-Dec 1966] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:01:53 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: K Paul Johnson on HPB, her Alleged Use of Hashish, etc. Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-10 23:26:15 EDT, you write: >Are they true or false? And how can one determine >their reliability/unreliability? > > And do they matter? After all, we are not idiot Victorians and the truth or falsehood of Blavatsky's ideas bear no relation at all to her personal habits. If what Blavatsky wrote was true, then it does not matter if she smoked opium while standing on her head buck naked singing Hava Nagila. If what she said was false, all the Victorian propriety in the world would not make it true. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:47:51 -0400 From: jim meier Subject: Aries; Easter, Passover & Spring Message-ID: <199804110848_MC2-3997-6BD8@compuserve.com> The full moon of Aries occurs today at 6:24pm Eastern, 10:24pm GMT. This is a sacred time for followers of Islam, Judaism and Christianity. It is a time recalling sacrifice; the lamb of Abraham, the lamb of Passover and, for Christians, the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. All three recount Man's option to obey God's Will, to become active participants in a spiritual event and not merely spectators or recipients of Divine blessings. Christians are apt to emphasize Christ's time upon the cross, but the real significance came at the Garden, in the decision to follow "not my Will but Thine, O Lord." What Theosophists term the 4th initiation (and Christians the Crucifixion) is termed "renunciation" in the East, and the complete acceptance of Divine Will marks the highest point possible for human consciousness. The next step along the Path is the Ascension, and we do not know what that means any more than Christ's disciples could follow Him to "the Father's House." Aries marks the beginning of the spiritual year. It is a fire sign, masculine, traditionally associated with Mars and rules the head. All beginnings start on the mental plane, from our individual thoughts preceeding our words and actions to Divine thought preceeding the Word and the manifest universe. In Aries, Hercules begins the 12-fold tests of discipleship and his first labor was the capture of the man-eating horses of war, raised by Diomedes the son of Mars -- symbolic of the unruly thoughts which the beginning aspirant must learn to control. It is Spring! A new cycle begins for all of us and each of us. The full moon of Aries occurs today at 6:24pm EDT (10:24pm GMT). A group meditation will be held then with the theme of "Letting in the Light," and all are invited to participate. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:16:40 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-11 00:09:28 EDT, you write: > So, as I see the whole position, there is nothing for the E.S. to "give >up", because it has no "powers", no "privileges" and no "status" within the >Society, except the consideration that may be given voluntarily by the T.S. >members in the form of certain facilities for the E.S. work, knowing the >general character of that body. If it did have any "power", privilege" or >"position", I would be the first to propose that it should give up all that >completely, without any reservation. > > Who out here would like a good deal on a used bridge? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:27:28 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Aries; Easter, Passover & Spring Message-ID: <5daf1876.352f99f2@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-11 08:53:15 EDT, you write: >This is a sacred time for followers of Islam, Judaism and Christianity. It >is a time recalling sacrifice; the lamb of Abraham, the lamb of Passover >and, for Christians, the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. > > Goodie! A great time to go out and kill the unbelievers! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:06:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: HPB and hashish Message-ID: <199804101606.MAA07840@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> > Dallas TenBroeck writes: > > I read a posting dated April 6th 1998 from "dport@ozmail" in which > it is alleged without any corroborative reference given that HPB > smoked hashish daily. This appears to be a deliberate insult aimed > at HPB. But it demands evidence that supports it. Actually, if you had read other posts from the same source you would realize it couldn't have been meant as an insult at all, since the author promotes the use of visionary drugs. As for supporting evidence; of course she could not have smoked it daily after the founding of the TS without someone noticing it. But there are two sources for her use of hashish earlier in her life (again, the *daily* bit is unsupported): Albert Rawson's article in the February 1892 issue of Frank Leslie's Illustrated, entitled "Madame Blavatsky-- A Theosophical Occult Apology," and an article by Hannah Wolff in (I think) Two Worlds. At any rate this source is listed in some available bibliographies, including Marion Meade's if I'm not mistaken. > > If this is true, may we have a reference that is reliable? Somehow I doubt that you will accept Rawson or Wolff as reliable, precisely because they make these statements about hashish. But that is circular reasoning. > > If it is false may we have a retraction and an apology ! What assumptions underly your expectation that someone who says something about HPB you don't like hearing owes you or "us" an apology? > > Since HPB is not present to answer this calumny directly, allow me > to PROTEST clearly and definitely on her behalf. I don't think she needs that service from you or that your taking on the role of demander of proofs, demander of apologies, and protester of alleged calumnies has any positive effect. Again, what assumptions underly your taking on this role? > > It is cowardly to make accusations in the absence of a person, and > especially after they are dead and unable to answer. > But as I understand the source, he doesn't view the allegations at at all negative, quite the reverse. Let me articulate your apparent assumptions in an unflattering, but honest attempt to get at the heart of the matter: 1. Anyone who makes any statement about HPB that *I personally* regard as insulting, because it conflicts with my view of her, had damn well better provide overwhelming legal proof of it, or else withdraw said statement or apologize. They have *ME* to answer to. 2. But I can make any statement about HPB that *I personally* believe to be true, even knowing that it conflicts with views of others on the list, without providing one iota of evidence for it. These spiritual truths are beyond the need of proof to the wayward souls who can't see their obvious and undeniable accuracy. *I* answer to no one. How does that sound? Pretty dogmatic and self-centered, huh? PJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:15:58 -0700 From: Caldwell/Graye Subject: Mark K.'s Theosophical Survey Message-ID: <352E45BE.5444@azstarnet.com> Mark, I'm glad you didn't resist and gave into the temptation. I LOVE your Theosophical survey!! Witty, humourous, sacastic, slashing, serious, telling, insightful. etc etc I hope everyone takes it! I had quite a few chuckles and as well as some serious thoughts as I read through the list. Also thanks for mentioning me! Should I be : ) or : ( ? Daniel Caldwell Mark Kusek wrote: > > Sorry, I couldn't resist either. > > ------------------------------ > > ( ) E.S. member > ( ) BS Member > ( ) Co-Masonic member > ( ) Mystic Brick layer > ( ) LCC faith > ( ) LSD faith > ( ) Subscriber to "Quest" > ( ) Watches television > ( ) Eats meat and/or chocolate > ( ) Participates in culture (familial, national, racial, etc.), without > being biased by it > ( ) Believes in "Star Wars" > ( ) Vegetarian > ( ) Has had a "Happy Meal" > ( ) Alcoholic > ( ) Sacramental drug user > ( ) Member of ACT party > ( ) Acts like a party animal > ( ) Arcane School Member (believer in Alice Bailey) > ( ) Member of 'rival' T.S. group (ULT and/or Pasadena .. or God forbid > .. "TI") > ( ) Been to Wheaton > ( ) Been to Adyar > ( ) Been to the source of their own Being > ( ) Member of any Theosophical branch, twig, or nut > ( ) Card carrying? > ( ) Member of "questionable cult" (I AM, CUT, RAJNEESH, WACO, GUYANA, > BROWNIES, KIWANAS) > ( ) Years of membership > ( ) Dues paid in full? > ( ) Comprehends Krishnamurti > ( ) Has read traditional source texts in addition to Theosophical > literature > ( ) Has investigated living Hindu, Buddhist (and other cited) > practitioners > ( ) Has direct knowledge of these traditions only from interpretations > of > TS literature > ( ) Believes that reading about something is the same as experiencing it > ( ) Believes in Atlantis > ( ) Age > ( ) Male > ( ) Female > ( ) Androgyne > ( ) Neither this nor that > ( ) Actually speaks in gender neutral language > ( ) Elemental (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) > ( ) Mineral > ( ) Vegetable (that means you, Carrot) > ( ) Animal > ( ) Savage Human > ( ) Average Human > ( ) Advanced Human > ( ) Approaching the Path > ( ) Probationer > ( ) 1st Initiation > ( ) 2nd > ( ) 3rd > ( ) More than that > ( ) Ascended Master > ( ) Something hybrid in between (re:Brenda) > ( ) 5th Root Race > ( ) 6th Root Race > ( ) 7th Root Race > ( ) Beyond that > ( ) White, [Preferably European and Victorian] > ( ) Other > ( ) Aborigine or some other "remnant" > ( ) Financially secure (not in need of salary/reimbursements) > ( ) In debt or denial > ( ) Fucked up personal life > ( ) 'Living in sin' > ( ) Mental confusion > ( ) Selfishness > ( ) Anger > ( ) Lust, sexual fantasy, repressed twinges > ( ) Masturbation > ( ) Outright Perversion > ( ) Silk underwear > ( ) Latex Chasuble > ( ) Claims to be an Initiate > ( ) Claims to have a master, spirit guide, or special animal > ( ) Claims to be one of the "elect," "elite," or "chosen ones" > ( ) Distinguishes society on the basis of that > ( ) Believes UFO's somehow fit into all of this > ( ) Makes income from such claims > ( ) Believes that "what is known" is all that there is to reality > ( ) Acknowleges the unknown and is comfortable with that > ( ) Does not know what is not known > ( ) Believes in God and the Bible > ( ) Believes: Metaphorically, Allegorically > ( ) Believes: Literally, Historically > ( ) Mixes and matches in a fuzzy kind of way > ( ) Imagines Charleton Heston, Robert Powell, or Franco Zefferelli when > asked about it > ( ) Believes that "God" is "Dog" spelled backwards > ( ) 'Believes' in Theosophy (HPB version, Besant/CWL version, ...) > ( ) Established track record of evil deeds in the world > ( ) Have been arrested > ( ) Inhaled > ( ) Have written bad checks > ( ) Endorsement by major theosophical figures > ( ) Endorsement by association > ( ) Legend in their own mind > ( ) Believes that God is within them, but prefers to let "Masters" > actually embody it > ( ) Ashamed to admit that they are "Human" > ( ) Disdains lower "ego" > ( ) Rejects "passional nature" > ( ) Accepts the contradictions of being "Human" > ( ) Believes that the Human kingdom is a natural evolutionary phase that > has to be gone through > ( ) Is afraid, wants to skip it and shoot right into the next one by > some unearned miracle > ( ) Understands the difference > ( ) Accepts Blavatsky's writings as final word on Theosophy > ( ) Accepts Daniel Cadwell's > ( ) Believe's John Algeo, or the office he occupies is the living > representative of the Mahatmas > ( ) Reads every post by Dallas all the way through > ( ) Proven experience in writing about or teaching Theosophy > ( ) Proven experience in writing about or teaching things which can > never be proven > ( ) Likes argument for it's own sake > ( ) Capitalist > ( ) Willing to give large sums of money or property to existing > Theosophical bodies > ( ) Cheats on taxes > ( ) Owns firearms > ( ) Stores food or water > ( ) Was afraid of nuclear threat during the cold war or the Reagan > administration > ( ) Saves for a rainy day > ( ) Lives in the present moment, but saves for retirement "just to be > safe" > ( ) Student or full-time-employed vs unemployed, not-working > ( ) Happy in their vocation > ( ) Still looking for it > ( ) "Monking" around (Walking the Earth; like "Caine" from TV's "Kung > Fu") > ( ) Healthy > ( ) Admittedly flawed > ( ) Self accepting > ( ) Handicapped > ( ) Just right > ( ) Perfect in every way > > > Forgive me, > Mark > -------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:08:17 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: HPB and hashish Message-ID: It is generally acknowledged by all but the most dogmatic that HPB did use hashish on a pretty regular basis as a pain killer because she had kidney disease. There is no evidence to indicate that she used it for any other reason though that is possible. Chuck the Heretic (whose drug of choice is alcohol) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:23:09 -0500 From: "Senzar Inc." Subject: David Bruce's Letter Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980410132309.007a2aa0@mail.stic.net> Here is the full text of David Bruce's Letter. Please note there is no date on the letter and many have received it in last few days. ........................................... THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN AMERICA Northcentral District David P. Bruce Director 210 W. Armour Ave. Milwaukee, WI 53207 (414) 769-0455 TO: TSA Branches, Study Centers, and Members Re: The newsletter, THE ACTIVIST A recent mailing of a newsletter called THE ACTIVIST has caused a number of members to express their concerns to me personally. Because of the vile nature of its contents and the damage it is designed to foment, I feel it is my duty to respond in appropriate fashion. At the risk of appearing "unbrotherly", I must take off the gloves and enter the fray. For starters, this newsletter sets a standard that any self-respecting tabloid journalist would be proud of. It not only contains misinformation, half-truths, but outright lies and slanderous innuendo. It belongs on the checkout stand of the local grocery - not in the hands of members in our branches and centers. In any organization such as ours, there is always a small group of malcontent individuals which is unhappy with the way things are. In our case, they are unhappy with John Algeo, our president. They are unhappy with the Quest magazine. They are unhappy with the fact that the Esoteric School exists. They are, generally speaking, unhappy. Some of these folks are attorneys. That may explain why they are always so unhappy. I know that we live in a cynical age. Ever since the Watergate era, the public has become increasingly cynical of its elected leaders. In many cases, that cynicism is justified. But when it comes to the TSA, we are talking about men and woman whose character and integrity is worlds above your average politician. Unfortunately, a small group of our membership is eternally distrustful of anybody in our organization who holds a position of responsibility. They distrust the Board. They distrust our President. They distrust committees. In short, they suffer from TADS (Theosophical Authority Distrust Syndrome). In some accute cases, the person who fails to get help from TADS moves on to a more advanced stage of this disease known as TAPS (Theosophical Authority Paranoia Syndrome). In general, they like to write letters to other members deploring the awful state of the TSA. And some of them become lawyers or attorneys. Sometimes, it is best to ignore these folks, But when they malign and impugn the character of some of our most dedicated and hard working members, I say it is high time to expose these people for what they are. In HPB's Golden Stairs, we are told to come to the defense of those who are unjustly attacked, It doesn't say what to do when a person is also smeared, maligned unfairly, and reviled without foundation. THE ACTIVIST devoted two pages to describing how awful things were for those living at Olcott. I do not believe this. Other than one letter from Brett Forray, who quit Olcott late last year, I have heard no complaints from any of the staff in this regard. When members move to Olcott, they generally have a job to perform. If that person is unable or unwilling to perform that job, they have to be let go. Some members cannot make the mental and physical adjustment to living at Olcott. If they cannot make the adjustment to life at Olcott, they have to be let go. John Algeo, our President, has my fullest confidence and trust in these matters. I have no reason to question his judgement or motives. I mentioned a letter that Brett Forray wrote. Brett worked at Olcott, and as far as I know, he did an excellent job. But for some reason, Brett harbored many misgivings about the way things were run at Olcott. Despite the fact that our President maintains an open door policy towards the staff, Brett never saw fit to come to John with any of his concerns. Instead, Brett publicly aired his list of grievances to anybody who would listen. I do not know how some of you would characterize this kind of behaviour, but the phrase "backstabbing" does come to mind. It may be unkind of me to point this out, but the facts are as they are. THE ACTIVIST calls for a complete disclosure of financial information having to do with the TSA. You will have to excuse my southern California sarcasm, but it's like....HELLO.... has anybody read the members' journal? If some of these people would put down their copy of the latest New Age Journal and bother to read our journal, they would discover that every year a complete financial statement is printed for the benefit of the members. I always suspected that nobody ever bothered to read the financial report, and I guess these folks confirm my suspicion. Another complaint that THE ACTIVIST has is that some of the Board members belong to the Esoteric School of Theosophy. Is that now a crime? I am surprised that some of these ACLU types should promote discrimination against ES members. They wonder why so many ES members hold office? I'll tell you why. It is because the average ES member is a tad more motivated and dedicated than some of the card-carrying members who never lift a finger to help the TSA. THE ACTIVIST implied that ES members take marching orders through a chain of command. Please. I have been an ES member for over ten years, and nothing could be further from the truth. I suspect that the people who are behind this newsletter confuse the ES with the CIA. This malady is common in those who watch too many episodes of Chris Carter's X-FILES. Another accusation which was directed towards our President was that he had the temerity and audacity to say that Theosophy has teachings (or doctrines). Let me tell you something. Every leader that I respect throughout the entire history of the theosophical movement has in one way or another ennunciated those teachings. We can disagree as to how those teachings are verbalized or as to their manner of interpretation. Members are free to consider or disregard those teachings as they will. But to deny that they exist reveals the woeful theosophical illiteracy of those who make such blatant statements. One wonders if they have ever bothered to study the Secret Doctrine or the Mahatma Letters? Accordingly, if you believe that Theosophy contains no doctrines or teachings, then you would naturally see the members' journal as simply a clearing house for any new and exotic idea that comes down the pike. Is it any surprise that these people are unhappy with the editorial policy of the TSA? A journal with explicit theosophical content seems to offend this crowd. Therefore they come up with the baseless charge that the Quest is biased. Well, let them have it their way. It is biased. Biased towards Theosophy! In closing, I want to thank John Algeo for his tireless efforts on behalf of the TSA. John is not perfect. He is amazing! How he manages to get 36 hours of work done in 24 hours is beyond me. I also have nothing but the deepest respect for the other members of the Board, with whom it is an honor to serve. Writing this letter was not fun. It had to be done. People who have unpleasant jobs often have bumper stickers that read: I'd RATHER BE SAILING or I'D RATHER BE GOLFING. When I finish with this task, my car shall have a bumper sticker which reads: I'D RATHER BE READING THEOSOPHY. Respectfully David P. Bruce Director, Northcentral From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:09:39 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: : Tamoxifen, Tears and Terror Message-ID: <01bd64bc$b3c4f2a0$087d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD649B.2CB352A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just read a very large book by Dr Susan Love on breast cancer, which my wife Betty has. According to her book, Tamoxifen is suited only to women who are post-menopausal and who test postive for estrogen. Virtually all of the horrible side effects that are mentioned in the = literature are with pre-menopausal women. Betty has just undergone radiation for her second round, and statisically has a small chance of seeing more than a few years. BTW, our research also showed us that chemo has NO effect whatever on post-menopausal women. Yet guess what almost all doctors around here want Betty to go through? Its either = chemo, which has been proved not to work, Tamoxifren which can work, or nothing at all. Those are the only options to post-menopausal women = whose=20 breast cancer comes back again. Jerry S. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD649B.2CB352A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just read a very large book by Dr = Susan Love=20 on breast cancer, which
my wife Betty has. According to her = book,=20 Tamoxifen is suited only to
women who are post-menopausal and = who test=20 postive for estrogen.
Virtually all of the horrible side = effects that=20 are mentioned in the literature
are with pre-menopausal women. Betty = has just=20 undergone radiation
for her second round, and = statisically has a=20 small chance of seeing
more than a few years. BTW, our = research also=20 showed us that
chemo has NO effect whatever on = post-menopausal=20 women. Yet guess
what almost all doctors around here = want Betty=20 to go through? Its either
chemo, which=20 has been proved not to work, Tamoxifren which can work, or
nothing at all. Those are the only = options to=20 post-menopausal women whose
breast cancer=20 comes back again.
 
Jerry S.
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD649B.2CB352A0-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:51:32 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Texas Federation Annual Meeting Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409195132.00852360@mail.eden.com> Annual Texas Federation of The Theosophical Society of America West Houston Study Center 13810 Burgoyne Houston TX 77077 (281) 496-7078 Exploring Alternative Healing Workshop on Health Transformation Friday, June 5 – Sunday, June 7, 1998 Friday Evening June 5th 6.30 pm - 7.30 pm Registration, Open House, Refreshments 7.30 pm - 9.30 pm Edgar Cayce Remedies Speaker: Ed Jamail, Houston Director, A.R.E. Friday Location: West Houston Study Center (address above) Saturday, June 6th 9.00 am Aromatherapy - 11.00 am Speaker: Jonathan Walling, C.A. Certified Aroma Therapist 11.00am How A Yogi spends .05 cents a year on Healthcare - 12.00 Noon Swami Acharyaji (Dr. Lal Sardana) Relaxation Techniques/ Breathe Work Eye Conditioning /Light Yoga at Chair Speaker: Kathryn Bumbaugh Director of Yoga Hmmmmm 12.00 Noon - 2.00 pm Lunch on your own 2.00 pm Reiki/Universal Energy 4.30 pm Speaker: Cathy Grundmann Certified Reiki Master/Teacher 7.00 pm Banquet at Gourmet India, - ????? 13155 Westheimer, Houston 77077 Saturday Location: Drury Inn West Houston (I-10 & HWY 6) 1000 North HWY 6, Houston TX 77079 Sunday, 7th June 8.15 am - Breakfast at Study Center 9.00 am 9.00 am - Business Meeting (Study Center) 10.00 am 10.15 am - Ayurvedic Medicine/The Science of Life 12.00 Noon Speaker: Robert Francis, D.C. & Ph.D. & Ayurvedic Practitioner 12.00 Noon Farewell until next year in San Antonio - ?????? Sunday Location: West Houston Study Center (13810 Burgoyne, Houston) For further information contact: Jo Barginear,13810 Burgoyne, Houston TX 77077 (281) 496-7078 —xxx- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 14:36:50 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: ACT vs. ES Message-ID: MKR: >I think every current official as well as any future >candidates for any office should be asked if they are >a member of ES. They should freely and boldly and >courageously disclose it for the benefit of the voting members. I'm not an E.S. member, but would have mixed feelings about your request if I were one and the request were made. Why? Because the request has the same feel to it as the similar requests made during the anti-communist era in America. Someone would be asked: "Are you, or were you ever a member of the Communist Party? Do you know anyone who is a member?" It seems an intrusion into one's personal life, an invasion of privacy. It may be true that we need to know something about the background and qualifications of candidates for office. In the past, candidates write a description of their backgrounds, putting in whatever they want to say about themselves. The assumption is that they are qualified and sincere, and that we don't need a detailed background investigation and list of public disclosures required. There are many things that could be disclosed: ( ) E.S. member ( ) Co-Masonic member ( ) LCC faith ( ) Arcane School member (or believer in Alice Bailey) ( ) vegetarian ( ) member of ACT party ( ) member of 'rival' T.S. group (ULT and/or Pasadena) ( ) years of membership ( ) age ( ) male/female ( ) white, African-American, Tibetan-American, etc. ( ) financially secure (not in need of salary/reimbursements) ( ) celibate, married/faithful, or 'living in sin' ( ) claims to be an Initiate ( ) claims to have master, spirit guide ( ) believes in God and the Bible ( ) 'believes' in Theosophy (Besant/CWL version, HPB version, ...) ( ) established track record of good deeds in the world ( ) endorsement by major theosophical figures ( ) accepts Blavatsky's writings as final word on Theosophy ( ) proven experience in writing about or teaching Theosophy ( ) communist / socialist / anarchist / capitalist ( ) student or full-time-employed vs unemployed, not-working ( ) healthy or impaired by health problems ( ) handicapped .. There are many, many more "qualifications". Some of the above I've put in to show how extreme things could go, and not to seriously suggest them as guidelines. But what, if anything, *should* we require candidates to disclose? Besides the question "are you an E.S. member?" there are other awkward questions that could be asked. Say we were to require all candidates to answer the question "do you believe in Theosophy?" If someone was doubtful, uncertain, or gave a "no", and they lost votes and therefore the election, would that be fair? (This is similar to the Christians putting the question "do you believe in God?" to candidates they might endorse.) Or say people were required to express a belief or non-belief in Alice Bailey's writings. Should this be required, and should someone lose the election if they say "yes"? Then, what if, as an additional step towards full disclosure, individual members -- not those running for office, but the general membership -- were required to adhere to certain standards of disclosure. Say everyone was required to say if they belonged to the ACT political party or not. Could this be used against them? Just as a National Section could be expelled en masse, without hearing the cases of individual members, could such a membership fall victim to the same treatment, with everyone on such a list being summarily dismissed from the T.S.? I would think that the only requirement for T.S. membership would be accepting the three objects of the T.S., and the same for elected office. Anything believed in by a candidate and how they might present themselves for election would be their own individual decision, and not based upon anyone's checklist. A candidate should not, I think, have to provide information to satisfy the various possible litmus tests that various members and groups within the membership might want to apply. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 05:22:02 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Theos-I posting 1488 of 4/6/98 Message-ID: <000201bd6408$96f9a120$03e78ccc@nwc.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD6377.6D8913C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit April 9th 1998 Dallas TenBroeck writes: I read a posting dated April 6th 1998 from "dport@ozmail" in which it is alleged without any corroborative reference given that HPB smoked hashish daily. This appears to be a deliberate insult aimed at HPB. But it demands evidence that supports it. If this is true, may we have a reference that is reliable? If it is false may we have a retraction and an apology ! Since HPB is not present to answer this calumny directly, allow me to PROTEST clearly and definitely on her behalf. It is cowardly to make accusations in the absence of a person, and especially after they are dead and unable to answer. Dallas TenBroeck ==================================== ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD6377.6D8913C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
April 9th 1998
 
Dallas TenBroeck =20 writes:
 
I read a posting dated April 6th 1998 from=20 "dport@ozmail" in which it is alleged without any = corroborative=20 reference given that HPB smoked hashish daily.  This appears to be = a=20 deliberate insult aimed at HPB.  But it demands evidence that = supports=20 it.
 
If this is true, may we have a reference that is=20 reliable?
 
If it is false may we have a retraction and an = apology=20 !
 
Since HPB is not present to answer this calumny = directly,=20 allow me to PROTEST clearly and definitely on her behalf.
 
It is cowardly to make accusations in the absence of = a person,=20 and especially after they are dead and unable to answer.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           =20 Dallas TenBroeck
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD6377.6D8913C0-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:54:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT vs. ES Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980409225452.00e4b4d8@mail.eden.com> More we know about the candidate better of we are. For example if someone is a member of LCC, I would not be inclined to support that person because LCC is discriminatory of women. Not a single women is an ordained priest as far as I know. On the other hand how could one support the First Object and at the same time discriminate based on gender. During the time of Annie Besant she boldly stated one time that every one of the member of the GC except one was an ES member. Perhaps it was fashionable in those days to be an ES member. I would wait and see reaction from others on the list. mkr At 05:37 PM 4/9/98 -0400, you wrote: >MKR: > >>I think every current official as well as any future >>candidates for any office should be asked if they are >>a member of ES. They should freely and boldly and >>courageously disclose it for the benefit of the voting members. > >I'm not an E.S. member, but would have mixed feelings about >your request if I were one and the request were made. Why? >Because the request has the same feel to it as the similar >requests made during the anti-communist era in America. >Someone would be asked: "Are you, or were you ever a member >of the Communist Party? Do you know anyone who is a member?" >It seems an intrusion into one's personal life, an invasion >of privacy. > >It may be true that we need to know something about the >background and qualifications of candidates for office. >In the past, candidates write a description of their >backgrounds, putting in whatever they want to say about >themselves. The assumption is that they are qualified and >sincere, and that we don't need a detailed background >investigation and list of public disclosures required. > >There are many things that could be disclosed: > >( ) E.S. member >( ) Co-Masonic member >( ) LCC faith >( ) Arcane School member (or believer in Alice Bailey) >( ) vegetarian >( ) member of ACT party >( ) member of 'rival' T.S. group (ULT and/or Pasadena) >( ) years of membership >( ) age >( ) male/female >( ) white, African-American, Tibetan-American, etc. >( ) financially secure (not in need of salary/reimbursements) >( ) celibate, married/faithful, or 'living in sin' >( ) claims to be an Initiate >( ) claims to have master, spirit guide >( ) believes in God and the Bible >( ) 'believes' in Theosophy (Besant/CWL version, HPB version, ...) >( ) established track record of good deeds in the world >( ) endorsement by major theosophical figures >( ) accepts Blavatsky's writings as final word on Theosophy >( ) proven experience in writing about or teaching Theosophy >( ) communist / socialist / anarchist / capitalist >( ) student or full-time-employed vs unemployed, not-working >( ) healthy or impaired by health problems >( ) handicapped > >.. There are many, many more "qualifications". Some of the >above I've put in to show how extreme things could go, and >not to seriously suggest them as guidelines. But what, if >anything, *should* we require candidates to disclose? > >Besides the question "are you an E.S. member?" there are >other awkward questions that could be asked. Say we were >to require all candidates to answer the question "do you >believe in Theosophy?" If someone was doubtful, uncertain, >or gave a "no", and they lost votes and therefore the election, >would that be fair? (This is similar to the Christians >putting the question "do you believe in God?" to candidates >they might endorse.) > >Or say people were required to express a belief or non-belief >in Alice Bailey's writings. Should this be required, and >should someone lose the election if they say "yes"? > >Then, what if, as an additional step towards full disclosure, >individual members -- not those running for office, but the >general membership -- were required to adhere to certain >standards of disclosure. Say everyone was required to say if >they belonged to the ACT political party or not. Could this >be used against them? Just as a National Section could be >expelled en masse, without hearing the cases of individual >members, could such a membership fall victim to the same >treatment, with everyone on such a list being summarily dismissed >from the T.S.? > >I would think that the only requirement for T.S. membership >would be accepting the three objects of the T.S., and the >same for elected office. Anything believed in by a candidate >and how they might present themselves for election would be >their own individual decision, and not based upon anyone's >checklist. A candidate should not, I think, have to provide >information to satisfy the various possible litmus tests >that various members and groups within the membership might >want to apply. > >-- Eldon > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:51:32 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Texas Federation Annual Meeting Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409195132.00852360@mail.eden.com> Annual Texas Federation of The Theosophical Society of America West Houston Study Center 13810 Burgoyne Houston TX 77077 (281) 496-7078 Exploring Alternative Healing Workshop on Health Transformation Friday, June 5 – Sunday, June 7, 1998 Friday Evening June 5th 6.30 pm - 7.30 pm Registration, Open House, Refreshments 7.30 pm - 9.30 pm Edgar Cayce Remedies Speaker: Ed Jamail, Houston Director, A.R.E. Friday Location: West Houston Study Center (address above) Saturday, June 6th 9.00 am Aromatherapy - 11.00 am Speaker: Jonathan Walling, C.A. Certified Aroma Therapist 11.00am How A Yogi spends .05 cents a year on Healthcare - 12.00 Noon Swami Acharyaji (Dr. Lal Sardana) Relaxation Techniques/ Breathe Work Eye Conditioning /Light Yoga at Chair Speaker: Kathryn Bumbaugh Director of Yoga Hmmmmm 12.00 Noon - 2.00 pm Lunch on your own 2.00 pm Reiki/Universal Energy 4.30 pm Speaker: Cathy Grundmann Certified Reiki Master/Teacher 7.00 pm Banquet at Gourmet India, - ????? 13155 Westheimer, Houston 77077 Saturday Location: Drury Inn West Houston (I-10 & HWY 6) 1000 North HWY 6, Houston TX 77079 Sunday, 7th June 8.15 am - Breakfast at Study Center 9.00 am 9.00 am - Business Meeting (Study Center) 10.00 am 10.15 am - Ayurvedic Medicine/The Science of Life 12.00 Noon Speaker: Robert Francis, D.C. & Ph.D. & Ayurvedic Practitioner 12.00 Noon Farewell until next year in San Antonio - ?????? Sunday Location: West Houston Study Center (13810 Burgoyne, Houston) For further information contact: Jo Barginear,13810 Burgoyne, Houston TX 77077 (281) 496-7078 —xxx- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:22:00 -0700 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Theosophical Survey Message-ID: <352EE1D3.EE2@withoutwalls.com> Sorry, I couldn't resist either. ( ) E.S. member ( ) BS Member ( ) Co-Masonic member ( ) Mystic Brick layer ( ) LCC faith ( ) LSD faith ( ) Subscriber to "Quest" ( ) Watches television ( ) Eats meat and/or chocolate ( ) Participates in culture (familial, national, racial, etc.), without being biased by it ( ) Believes in "Star Wars" ( ) Vegetarian ( ) Has had a "Happy Meal" ( ) Alcoholic ( ) Sacramental drug user ( ) Member of ACT party ( ) Acts like a party animal ( ) Arcane School Member (believer in Alice Bailey) ( ) Member of 'rival' T.S. group (ULT and/or Pasadena .. or God forbid . "TI") ( ) Been to Wheaton ( ) Been to Adyar ( ) Been to the source of their own Being ( ) Member of any Theosophical branch, twig, or nut ( ) Card carrying? ( ) Member of "questionable cult" (I AM, CUT, RAJNEESH, WACO, GUYANA, BROWNIES, KIWANAS) ( ) Years of membership ( ) Dues paid in full? ( ) Comprehends Krishnamurti ( ) Has read traditional source texts in addition to Theosophical literature ( ) Has investigated living Hindu, Buddhist (and other cited) practitioners ( ) Has direct knowledge of these traditions only from interpretations of TS literature ( ) Believes that reading about something is the same as experiencing it ( ) Believes in Atlantis ( ) Age ( ) Male ( ) Female ( ) Androgyne ( ) Neither this nor that ( ) Actually speaks in gender neutral language ( ) Elemental (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) ( ) Mineral ( ) Vegetable (that means you, Carrot) ( ) Animal ( ) Savage Human ( ) Average Human ( ) Advanced Human ( ) Approaching the Path ( ) Probationer ( ) 1st Initiation ( ) 2nd ( ) 3rd ( ) More than that ( ) Ascended Master ( ) Something hybrid in between (re:Brenda) ( ) 5th Root Race ( ) 6th Root Race ( ) 7th Root Race ( ) Beyond that ( ) White, [Preferably European and Victorian] ( ) Other ( ) Aborigine or some other "remnant" ( ) Financially secure (not in need of salary/reimbursements) ( ) In debt or denial ( ) Fucked up personal life ( ) 'Living in sin' ( ) Mental confusion ( ) Selfishness ( ) Anger ( ) Lust, sexual fantasy, repressed twinges ( ) Masturbation ( ) Outright Perversion ( ) Silk underwear ( ) Latex Chasuble ( ) Claims to be an Initiate ( ) Claims to have a master, spirit guide, or special animal ( ) Claims to be one of the "elect," "elite," or "chosen ones" ( ) Distinguishes society on the basis of that ( ) Believes UFO's somehow fit into all of this ( ) Makes income from such claims ( ) Believes that "what is known" is all that there is to reality ( ) Acknowleges the unknown and is comfortable with that ( ) Does not know what is not known ( ) Believes in God and the Bible ( ) Believes: Metaphorically, Allegorically ( ) Believes: Literally, Historically ( ) Mixes and matches in a fuzzy kind of way ( ) Imagines Charleton Heston, Robert Powell, or Franco Zefferelli when asked about it ( ) Believes that "God" is "Dog" spelled backwards ( ) 'Believes' in Theosophy (HPB version, Besant/CWL version, ...) ( ) Established track record of evil deeds in the world ( ) Have been arrested ( ) Inhaled ( ) Have written bad checks ( ) Endorsement by major theosophical figures ( ) Endorsement by association ( ) Legend in their own mind ( ) Believes that God is within them, but prefers to let "Masters" actually embody it ( ) Ashamed to admit that they are "Human" ( ) Disdains lower "ego" ( ) Rejects "passional nature" ( ) Accepts the contradictions of being "Human" ( ) Believes that the Human kingdom is a natural evolutionary phase that has to be gone through ( ) Is afraid, wants to skip it and shoot right into the next one by some unearned miracle ( ) Understands the difference ( ) Accepts Blavatsky's writings as final word on Theosophy ( ) Accepts Daniel Cadwell's ( ) Believe's John Algeo, or the office he occupies is the living representative of the Mahatmas ( ) Reads every post by Dallas all the way through ( ) Proven experience in writing about or teaching Theosophy ( ) Proven experience in writing about or teaching things which can never be proven ( ) Likes argument for it's own sake ( ) Capitalist ( ) Willing to give large sums of money or property to existing Theosophical bodies ( ) Cheats on taxes ( ) Owns firearms ( ) Stores food or water ( ) Was afraid of nuclear threat during the cold war or the Reagan administration ( ) Saves for a rainy day ( ) Lives in the present moment, but saves for retirement "just to be safe" ( ) Student or full-time-employed vs unemployed, not-working ( ) Happy in their vocation ( ) Still looking for it ( ) "Monking" around (Walking the Earth; like "Caine" from TV's "Kung Fu") ( ) Healthy ( ) Admittedly flawed ( ) Self accepting ( ) Handicapped ( ) Just right ( ) Perfect in every way Forgive me, Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 01:12:01 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: K's views on TS Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409011201.0084f3c0@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is an excerpt from Ernest Wood's book " Is this Theosophy..?". Ernest Wood had first hand knowledge of TS and was also one of the instructors for Krishnaji. Some will find it interesting. ......doss ======================= I saw much of Krishnamurti during his visit to New York and on subsequent occasions. I tried to grasp how life appeared and what it meant to him. That was difficult, because it did not mean anything at all. It stood for itself and required no interpretation. He said he had reached liberation; he was free, but he could not describe that freedom. Mind could no more grasp life than teeth could bite the air. Life was knowing itself direct in him, not through the veil of mind, with its clumsy categories of past, present and future. I could see clearly what he was driving at in describing so many things as hindrances, but I was not able to grasp the positive and superior life of which he spoke. After all, his position seemed to be that of the yoga school of India, which I knew well. It was simply that the mind (perception and reason) is not the instrument for knowing the positive element of being that is, life itself, but is concerned with the limited department of production and understanding of forms. Its enhancement could not lead to discovery of fundamental truth any more than could development of abnormal muscularity. On the other hand its suppression could not lead to it, any more than material suicide. We ought not, therefore, to picture our evolution into some godly or angelic type of being. and stultify our present power by waiting or working for that. That would not be different from the way in which stupid devotees set aside their own judgment and waited for orders from above. Nor, on the other hand, should we discredit our present capacity by going backwards, as it were, to the peaceful animal state of mind. In short, the secret of the real is to click with the present, to be fully what we are. Consolation, hope, remorse, and any philosophy which softens the incidence of life upon us in the present stands in the way of life's realization of itself. The mind can help only by removing the obstacles, the errors created by itself. To think of life in its fullness is to make only a picture on canvas. Life is life, and cannot be known mentally by comparison with any object. You cannot put God in a box. Several times I discussed with Krishnamurti the function of the Theosophical Society. He said: " You cannot organize truth." I pointed out that the Society was intended to be only a business organization. It existed for the promotion of truth, but did not say what that truth was. " I am afraid you cannot have such a brotherhood," was his reply. " Consider the weakness of human nature. Some creed will get control of the thing, or will be fighting for it and giving trouble all the time." I pointed out that the position is maintained in scientific and learned societies; the Chemical Society does not advocate the use of any particular brand of soap or matches. " People can be impersonal with reference to soap and matches," was the substance of his reply, " but your society proposes to deal with man himself, and you will find that people simply will not face the truth with reference to themselves." " Let us put it to the test of experience," said I. At any rate I am going to try to make the position clear, since there ought to be a society where people may meet to discuss and criticize their various efforts to find the truth. " Go ahead," was his conclusion. " I shall watch the effort with great interest, but I think there is little hope." I had still to learn that there are no truth-seekers, because really to want it would be to have it: it is because we do not really want it that we are what we are, embodiments of wanting something less. =============xxx================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 08:52:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World My Close Encounter with the ER Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409085217.01284210@mail.eden.com> At 09:04 AM 4/9/1998 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-04-09 01:56:36 EDT, Doss wrote: > ><< n Tillett's book, there is a reference to the Egyptian Ritual was adapted > for use by a group of young women who were also ES members. >> > >About 20 years ago, I "inherited" a theosophical library from a deceased >member because the relatives had no interest in the subject. Among the papers, >I found two parchments, they looked like diplomas, that had the name of the >Egyptian Rite on them. Each document showed that the participant had achieved >a certain level or degree. One referred to a temple degree associated with >Isis. Curious, I took them down to the Washington Lodge and showed them to an >elderly friend of mine who had been the librarian at Olcott for a quite a long >time. When she saw them, she gave me a big kiss on the lips, snatched the >documents out of my hands and said, "You're giving me to these, aren't you, >darling". Before I could reply, she made a beeline to Joy Mills in the next >room who happened to be there that day to give a lecture. I saw them in a >huddle whispering to one another. When my friend returned, I asked her what >they were and she passed it off by saying "Oh, it was just an organization >George Arundale set up to help people learn theosophy better". This lady was >in her eighties at the time, very knowledgable and quite charming but she was >an old-line theosophist, ES member and all that. My only regret was that I >didn't xerox the ER papers. But that's water under the bridge. > >My other experience was even earlier, back in the early Sixties. When I was >being raised in Holy Orders in The LCC, Bishop Will Pitkin made the following >cryptic remark one morning, "One day you will be admitted to a group that >isn't Co-Masonry, the ES or The LCC. It will be something else but it will be >under the direct tutelage of the Master Himself". The other candidate for >Orders and myself sat there dumfounded but neither of us asked any questions >about what was just said. Another mistake, looking back in retrospect. > >Lmhem111 > > That is very interesting. How I wish you had retained the originals. Even if the originals were there, it would not have disclosed any secrets. The way the old lady reacted and the subsequent huddling tells me that she may not be telling the full story. According to Tillett, the ER was established by CWL and not GA. To this day I am yet to see anyone dispute with evidence any facts in the Tillett's book. May be it would be a good idea to ask Joy Mills or any of the older leaders about it when there is an occassion to inquire and see their answers. It would be very interesting. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 08:57:10 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TI-L digest 326 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409085710.010f6a10@mail.eden.com> Several years before he died, K had a meeting with the Trustees of KFA in which he discussed his views/opinions on TS and Masters. It was recorded and I am yet to see a transcript of it. It would be very interesting to see what he had to say. After all he has seen first hand how TS operates and I will not be surprised if we find surprises in his views. The fact that the transcript has not been quoted or released tells me that he may have been very critical on certain aspects. But one of these days, it is going to be out. mkr At 02:43 AM 4/9/1998 -0400, you wrote: >ti-l@vnet.net wrote: >> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 01:12:01 -0500 >> From: M K Ramadoss >> To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >> Subject: K's views on TS >> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409011201.0084f3c0@mail.eden.com> >> >> Hi >> >> Here is an excerpt from Ernest Wood's book " Is this Theosophy..?". >> Ernest Wood had first hand knowledge of TS and was also one of the >> instructors for Krishnaji. Some will find it interesting. >> >> ......doss >> ======================= >> >> I saw much of Krishnamurti during his visit to New York and on subsequent >> occasions. I tried to grasp how life appeared and what it meant to him. That >> was difficult, because it did not mean anything at all. It stood for itself >> and required no interpretation. He said he had reached liberation; he was >> free, but he could not describe that freedom. Mind could no more grasp life >> than teeth could bite the air. Life was knowing itself direct in him, not >> through the veil of mind, with its clumsy categories of past, present and >> future. >> >> I could see clearly what he was driving at in describing so many things as >> hindrances, but I was not able to grasp the positive and superior life of >> which he spoke. After all, his position seemed to be that of the yoga school >> of India, which I knew well. It was simply that the mind (perception and >> reason) is not the instrument for knowing the positive element of being that >> is, life itself, but is concerned with the limited department of production >> and understanding of forms. Its enhancement could not lead to discovery of >> fundamental truth any more than could development of abnormal muscularity. >> On the other hand its suppression could not lead to it, any more than >> material suicide. >> >> We ought not, therefore, to picture our evolution into some godly or angelic >> type of being. and stultify our present power by waiting or working for >> that. That would not be different from the way in which stupid devotees set >> aside their own judgment and waited for orders from above. Nor, on the other >> hand, should we discredit our present capacity by going backwards, as it >> were, to the peaceful animal state of mind. In short, the secret of the real >> is to click with the present, to be fully what we are. Consolation, hope, >> remorse, and any philosophy which softens the incidence of life upon us in >> the present stands in the way of life's realization of itself. The mind can >> help only by removing the obstacles, the errors created by itself. To think >> of life in its fullness is to make only a picture on canvas. Life is life, >> and cannot be known mentally by comparison with any object. You cannot put >> God in a box. >> >> Several times I discussed with Krishnamurti the function of the Theosophical >> Society. He said: " You cannot organize truth." >> >> I pointed out that the Society was intended to be only a business >> organization. It existed for the promotion of truth, but did not say what >> that truth was. >> >> " I am afraid you cannot have such a brotherhood," was his reply. " Consider >> the weakness of human nature. Some creed will get control of the thing, or >> will be fighting for it and giving trouble all the time." >> >> I pointed out that the position is maintained in scientific and learned >> societies; the Chemical Society does not advocate the use of any particular >> brand of soap or matches. >> >> " People can be impersonal with reference to soap and matches," was the >> substance of his reply, " but your society proposes to deal with man >> himself, and you will find that people simply will not face the truth with >> reference to themselves." >> >> " Let us put it to the test of experience," said I. At any rate I am going >> to try to make the position clear, since there ought to be a society where >> people may meet to discuss and criticize their various efforts to find the >> truth. >> >> " Go ahead," was his conclusion. " I shall watch the effort with great >> interest, but I think there is little hope." >> >> I had still to learn that there are no truth-seekers, because really to want >> it would be to have it: it is because we do not really want it that we are >> what we are, embodiments of wanting something less. > >Amen! > >Vincent >-- > >vincent@dmv.com > >http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:39:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Texas Federation Annual Meeting - June 5 -7 at Houston TX Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409123923.0084fc70@mail.eden.com> Hi I just received the following Announcement. Will post detailed program later this PM. MKR The Annual Meeting of Texas Federation of TSA will be on June 5 -7 at Houston Texas. The meeting will be on Exploring Alternative Healing. More details will be posted later. For further information: Jo Barginear (281) 496-7078 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:46:24 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT vs. ES Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409124624.00974d00@mail.eden.com> You hit the nail on its head. I think every current official as well as any future candidates for any office should be asked if they are a member of ES. They should freely and boldly and courageously disclose it for the benefit of the voting members. We will have to see. mkr At 12:50 PM 4/9/1998 -0400, you wrote: >> Realizing this, I see that ACT is pretty much another political >>party in the TS. Quite frankly, I am not sure that I favor either the ES >>or ACT, so I will probably vote based on the individual rather than on >>party support. However, as long as there is going to be one voting bloc, >>I do feel that it is important to allow other voting blocs, as well. >Several huge differences though .... the ES *controls* Headquarters assets, >publications, and even the vote counting process. It's members have passed >bylaws making it difficult for any other "party" to challenge the status >quo. Unlike ACT, it does not publish a platform for reveiw of the general >membership, publish the names of people to contact, or invite membership. In >fact, the vast majority of members may not know there *is* the ES "voting >bloc" of which you speak. Yet their Society is governed by it. > >ACT is completely open about what it is, what it wants to do, and why it >wants to do it. The ES acts in an almost completely covert way - though it >even in part uses money from members to accomplish its ends. > >This is *not* a situation in which ACT is simply "another" voting bloc like >the ES - in which ACT and the ES can be considered analogous to the >Republications and Democrats. There is no open discourse between two clearly >articulated perspectives on Theosophy (which IMO would be extremely >*healthy* for the TS). What ACT is is a democratic movement attempting to >open the TS, to force what is *covert* to become *overt*, to insist upon >accountability in elections and finances, to insist that any member with >something to offer has an *equal chance* of running for an office. The ES >acts like an autocratic, covert ruling junta that not only does not >encourage open discourse and debate, but that takes significant steps to >supress the information that it even exists as a voting bloc whose members >are deeply integrated into every aspect of TS goverance. A political party >or voting bloc is not a conspiracy. A completely covert organization that >effectively rules the TS while never even making its existance as such >public, *is*. > >I would be *most* happy if the picture you paint was the actual reality ... >if the ES came out in public and *said* that it was a faction with distinct >views of Theosophy, and the way the TS should be governed, made public the >names of its organizers, if every ES member who was running for an office >*told* the membership they were an ES member (as ACT candidates will make >*their* views, ideas on governance, and ACT affiliation public) - and if, as >the elections approached, genuine debates occured in which ES and ACT >candidates engaged in free and open debate, clearly articulating their >perspectives ... that is, permitting the TS Membership to have *COMPLETE* >information about who the people running were, and who they were affiliated >with - if ACT members were permitted *equal* time in the Quest/AT during the >year preceeding the election (giving every candidate a token article just >before the election is hardly meaningful when JA has two or three articles >in every publication - the ES *knows* how to play the name recognition >game). >And further, that a voting process that was beyond question - i.e., >accomplished from beginning to end by an independent firm, assured that the >voting was beyond dispute. > >What ACT wants is a Theosophical ideal - the *truth* to be made known, open >and free discourse, and the entire membership able to make their voting >choices with full and complete information about what they are voting for. >And if the response ACT has already gotten is any sign, more than a few >members also want this. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:39:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Texas Federation Annual Meeting - June 5 -7 at Houston TX Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980409123923.0084fc70@mail.eden.com> Hi I just received the following Announcement. Will post detailed program later this PM. MKR The Annual Meeting of Texas Federation of TSA will be on June 5 -7 at Houston Texas. The meeting will be on Exploring Alternative Healing. More details will be posted later. For further information: Jo Barginear (281) 496-7078 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:25:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: Masters as Metaphor Message-ID: <19980407212551.27543.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> ---Thoa Tran wrote: *snip snip* > My guru is the holy cabbage. I pray to it before I > make Mushu pancake stuffing out of it. *snip snip* > Thoa :o) I feel so lonely. Why is it that everyone worships the cabbage? Always the cabbage. "Oh," they say, "the cabbage has fuller leaves." "The cabbage lasts longer." "The cabbage is easier to pick." Well, phooey on them all. I'll tell you right now, though, ...those green vegetables have a real attitude problem now, thanks to you humans inflating their egos. --- Kahrat. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 18:10:41 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Clinton Receiving Communion Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980407181041.0084ee50@mail.eden.com> Here is a news item. Just could not understand what is all the fuss about. mkr ------------- Clinton Defends Taking Communion WASHINGTON (AP) The White House says President Clinton, a Southern Baptist, has no regrets about taking Communion from a Catholic priest during his visit to South Africa despite criticism from some Catholic leaders. White House spokesman Mike McCurry said Monday that aides who arranged Clinton's March 29 visit to a church outside Johannesburg were assured that baptized Christians could share in Communion "and the president acted on that guidance." In a Palm Sunday homily, Cardinal John O'Connor said it was wrong for the officiating priest to give Clinton the sacrament, "however well-intentioned" his actions were. Clinton received Communion along with first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton during a morning Mass at Regina Mundi church, which is located in the black township of Soweto. O'Connor responded after numerous calls poured into his office from New York-area Catholics who saw pictures of Clinton receiving the sacrament, spokesman Joseph Zwilling told the New York Post in its Monday editions. The officiating priest, the Rev. Mohlomi Makobane, has said he gave Communion to Clinton because he did not want to risk embarrassing him by declining to do so. ---xxx--- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:25:49 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Clinton Receiving Communion Message-ID: In a message dated 98-04-07 19:16:51 EDT, you write: >Here is a news item. Just could not understand what is all the fuss about. > >mkr He's in real trouble now! Taking communion with them thar' Satan Worshipping, Statue Kissing Choir-boy Buggering Heathen Roman Catholics is the only that can cause a good Southern Baptist to lose his salvation. He's goin' to hell fur sure! Uncle Chuckie From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:32:03 +0900 From: dport@ozemail.com.au Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1489 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980408103203.00687278@ozemail.com.au> >>> >>>I agree with the above. I noticed when I visited Australia two >years ago, the >>>TS there was split into a pro-Krishnamurti school and a >pro-Geoffrey Hodson, >>>CWL, AB school, the Krishnamurti-ites being ensconced at Nat'l >HQ in downtown >>>Sydney and the neo-theosophists centered around The Manor. I am a member of Adelaide Lodge (South Australia), we recently had a discussion over the monthly Krishnamurti videos and the time they were taking away from live lectures. The general consensus was stuff the live lectures more K videos please. But it seems that many non-TS members come to the public lectures just to see the K videos, one woman said that it was the only place she knew they were available. >>>His approach is basically that of a southern Buddhist, the >neti-neti path (God >>>is not this, God is not that). This is the most difficult of >all paths to >>>follow in my opinion. The iti-iti path of "God is this, God is >that" is >>>easier. It leads to bhakti yoga, devotion to God in one's >favourite form, >>>whether it be an avatar or guru. I realize that the two paths >are a matter of >>>choice. What about a third option, the transcendence of choice? >gNOSis: this reminds me of a poem - ..after a Long Summers Day and a Night Of Sin, that which was whithout was discovered within.... Thought for the day: If all is one.... all sex is masturbation all eating is cannibalism all violence is masochism >>from the frying pan, > >Into my grill! I hope you're tasty and juicy. ;o) > >>the mighty NOS > >Skewered and basted. > >Thoa :o) everything is fire, mighty NOS, the ps Do what Thoa wilt shall be the whole of the law * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:57:39 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Masters as Metaphor Message-ID: The Carrot: >I feel so lonely. Why is it that everyone worships the cabbage? >Always the cabbage. "Oh," they say, "the cabbage has fuller leaves." >"The cabbage lasts longer." "The cabbage is easier to pick." Well, >phooey on them all. I'll tell you right now, though, ...those green >vegetables have a real attitude problem now, thanks to you humans >inflating their egos. > >--- >Kahrat. WA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA...:oD You crazy carrot. Where's my cleaver? I'll make coleslaw out of you. You can become One with the cabbage in that Mulaprakriti. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:48:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Procedural PLEA!! Message-ID: <199804081348.JAA13254@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Folks, the last couple of theos-talk digests and the latest theos-l digest have contained a huge proportion of unnecessarily copied material. Material that is not even answered in cut-and-paste format, just stuck on the end of the current message. In one case, Dallas copied Doss copying Lmhem so we had a total of four copies of Lmhem's post in two digests (I think-- it's so confusing.) For those of us reading with slow modems, it takes forever scrolling through all that extra stuff. Even reading with a fast modem, it's obnoxious to read a digest cluttered up with 50% irrelevant material. Please, in the name of brevity, clarity, elegance, or whatever you hold sacred in cyberspace, stop copying whole messages in replies. Grateful for future cooperation in this regard, Paul PS-- Richard, thanks for the kind words. I am back in TSA due to hope that ACT can revivify freedom of inquiry in the Society. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:21:10 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: THEOS-L digest 1489 Message-ID: NOSey: >>Llhem111: >>>>His approach is basically that of a southern Buddhist, the >>neti-neti path (God >>>>is not this, God is not that). This is the most difficult of >>all paths to >>>>follow in my opinion. The iti-iti path of "God is this, God is >>that" is >>>>easier. It leads to bhakti yoga, devotion to God in one's >>favourite form, >>>>whether it be an avatar or guru. I realize that the two paths >>are a matter of >>>>choice. > >What about a third option, the transcendence of choice? How would you do that on this physical plane? >>gNOSis: > >this reminds me of a poem - >..after a Long Summers Day and a Night Of Sin, >that which was whithout was discovered within.... > > >Thought for the day: >If all is one.... >all sex is masturbation >all eating is cannibalism >all violence is masochism It's Love or it's not Give all that you've got Back to the Heart That gave it to you. It's round make the circle round make the circle of Love! >ps Do what Thoa wilt shall be the whole of the law Everyone would be a whole lot happier! Love, Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:17:39 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Beatrice Woods dies Message-ID: <4dc30a70.352a5fb5@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-06 21:28:27 EDT, you write: >The children of Dada have gotten >institutional and unoriginal. It's like watching another rocker demolish >his guitar. It's a problem we all face. That which is stunning one day becomes boring the next. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:29:08 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: for those who still inhabit churches Message-ID: <6bb48014.352a6265@aol.com> friend of mine sent me this, enjoy. Chuck the Heretic TOP TEN WAYS YOU KNOW YOU'RE IN A BAD CHURCH 10. The church bus has gun racks. 9. The church staff consists of Senior Pastor, Associate Pastor and Socio-pastor. 8. The Bible they use is the "Dr. Seuss Version." 7. There's an ATM in the lobby. 6. Choir wears leather robes. 5. Worship services are B.Y.O.S. -- "Bring Your Own Snake." 4. No cover charge, but communion is a two-drink minimum. 3. Karaoke Worship Time. 2. Ushers ask, "Smoking or Non-smoking?" 1. The only song the organist knows is "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:00:53 -0700 From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti and theosophists, pro & con Message-ID: <002601bd624f$eb306e00$03e78ccc@nwc.net> April 7th 1998 Dallas writes: Concerning the Adyar property. This what I recall history says about it: The Adyar property was purchased (around 1880/81) by H.P.B. and Col. Olcott using their own private funds, they used the property and the houses on it, as it was their joint property, to house the T S. headquarters. It is situated about 11 miles south of Madras Fort, and is just south of the Adyar river on the sea coast. The S.P.R. Hodgson Report came out in December 1884 and created a furor -- HPB returned to India early in 1885 to demonstrate that she had nothing to fear and, to defend the honor of the T S and of the Masters. When in 1885 HPB was "banished" by the Council who refused to let her take the risk of appearing in a court case involving the Madras missionaries who slandered her, ( reviving the old "Russian Spy" theory, which the Indian Government had verified was wrong ), Col. Olcott had her sign a legal declaration whereby she "renounced" all ownership in Adyar property or its effects. She gave this so that if a judgment against her were made, her ownership would not entail the said property. She left, very ill with Dr. Franz Hartman and another friend who was her Doctor as companions for her to be with and help her on the voyage. Years later when requested by some of the Indian theosophists to return she wrote a letter and asked Bertam Keightley to carry it with him to Col. Olcott to be published in THEOSOPHIST. Bertram Keightley was visiting India in April 1890, and he carried this letter in which she carefully explained the situation and why she could not return to India although urged to do so by many after the period of 1885, when there had been a change of heart and fear had been banished. It was entitled: WHY I DO NOT RETURN TO INDIA. It was not immediately published in THEOSOPHIST (as it ought to have been) but was privately circulated to a few. Many years later, after her death, it was published in THEOSOPHIST for October 1898 pp 23-4, and again in July 1929. It is currently in print on p. 106 of the 1st Vol. of HPB ARTICLES, published by Theosophy Company, Los Angeles. It reviews the exact sequence of affairs in India and the measure of the Masters' influence is made plain there. It is a letter that every student of Theosophy ought to be acquainted with, and if desired I can publish it for all to read here. Best wishes, Dallas >Date: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 8:52 AM >From: M K Ramadoss >Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti and theosophists, pro & con >At 09:20 AM 4/7/98 EDT, you wrote: >>In a message dated 98-04-06 23:59:47 EDT, Govert wrote: >> >><< Personally I think that K's failure to qualify for vehicle for Maitreya >>and his denouncements of the Masters and theosophy, created so much confusion >>within theosophical circles that it started the decline of the TS. That the >>TS did not fold completely is not due to K challenging beliefs and concepts, >>but to the fact that it >> was already a viable organization with a body of very relevant literature >>and the backing of the Masters. Rather than vitalizing the TS I am afraid >>that the teachings of K sap its strength. The TS is not aware of this, >>because it is still in a state of shock and denial regarding what really >>happened. >> >> >>I agree with the above. I noticed when I visited Australia two years ago, the >>TS there was split into a pro-Krishnamurti school and a pro-Geoffrey Hodson, >>CWL, AB school, the Krishnamurti-ites being ensconced at Nat'l HQ in downtown >>Sydney and the neo-theosophists centered around The Manor. > >It is not surprising at all. On the one hand, we those of the "Catholic" >approach and "Non-Catholic" approach, former belonging to the traditional TS >approach especially after AB&CWL. [I will post a lecture on this topic by >Besant after a week.] > >One can sense this same kind of attitudes in the TSA also. At least in the >TSA we have not gotten to the level of two schools ensconced at two >buildings. [Don't be surprised if this happens!] > >The fact that Radha Burnier had known him all her life and of course she >must have been affected by his teachings may have something to do about the >shift in emphasis within TS. It was at K's urging, Radha Burnier ran for the >office of International President and won. > >Several years ago my brother visited Krotona and when he inquired about >directions to KFA he could did not get any help. Ojai is not a big place and >KFA is perhaps most well known organization there. > > >> >>I have problems with Krishnamurti myself. He was an alleged "non-guru" with >>tens of thousands of devotees. He rejected the TS yet he always maintained >>centers conveniently located near major TS compounds, Ojai and Adyar being >>examples. > >The location of these institutions are historical. K never had a hand in >location of Ojai or Adyar. Ojai property was originally donated by TS >member and the Adyar property was built, I think by the Star Trust. I would >not read too much into it. For example there is the Rishi Valley school >which is quite far from Adyar and has been in existence for a long time. > >> >>His approach is basically that of a southern Buddhist, the neti-neti path (God >>is not this, God is not that). This is the most difficult of all paths to >>follow in my opinion. The iti-iti path of "God is this, God is that" is >>easier. It leads to bhakti yoga, devotion to God in one's favourite form, >>whether it be an avatar or guru. I realize that the two paths are a matter of >>choice. >> >> Krishnamurti complained in his last days that no one understood his >>philosophy (from Radha Schloss' book). People used to come to me with the same >>complaint and I told them I couldn't help them because I didn't understand it >>either. I finally got a better grasp of his teachings after reading Rohit >>Meta's book THE NAMELESS EXPERIENCE. >> > >It took me almost two decades to get an inkling of what he is talking. > > >>Krishnamurti had a perfect right to expound and dispense his philosophy, and >>they're many people, including some on this List, who think highly of him. But >>or me, well, his teachings aren't my cup of tea frankly. I think there were >>many theosophists who felt the same way. Many acknowledge that he created a >>great division in the TS which is still healing. >> >>Lmhem111 > >As I had mentioned earlier, if his message means something to anyone, then >that is of value to that person. After all we are all searching and >hopefully we will understand better. > >mkr > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:16:00 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Masters as Metaphor Message-ID: gNOSis: >Two new books by K. Paul Johnson (Masters Revealed and Initiates of The >Theosophical Masters) were reviewed in the March-April issue of New Dawn. >A quotation - >" The original advent of the Mahatmas (mAsters) was within the framework of >the system developed by Madame Blavatsky. This system was modified, >transformed and , many would say, distorted by the various factional >movements that developed within Theosophy. >Certainly the Theosophy of Charles Leadbeater and Annie Besant seems at >odds with the esotericism found in The Secret Doctrine, Blavatsky's majot >theosophical treatise. The problem was that the "Ascended Master" mythos >that began with Blavatsky took on a life of its own. The Masters became >democratic, and thus the Masters began to speak to everyone" If you're not already there, you should log onto theos-world. They're having a huge discussion on Masters, pro-con. All I can say is that people who follow certain leaders, gurus, "Masters", definitely have strong faith. Some probably to the point of following the leader off a cliff. I wouldn't try to shake any of their faith. Paraphrasing someone on theos-world, the western path of "God is this, God is that" is easier than the eastern path of "God is not this, God is not that." Attachment is easier than non-attachment. Even in martial arts, the schools revere their Grandmaster. My particular school bow to him and have his picture up. Some black belts kneel in prostration in front of the Grandmaster when he visits the school. Everything the Grandmaster said is the word of God. No other schools or system could come close to being as true. The pecking order is strictly in place. Respect and etiquette is expected. IMO, it's a way of maintaining control. We like this because attachment is a way for humans to find their place. It is their stability. My guru is the holy cabbage. I pray to it before I make Mushu pancake stuffing out of it. >And so on. Then this quote from HPB's collected writings, vol 3. in a >letter to Franz Hartmann- > >"where you speak of the 'army' of the deluded - and the 'imaginary' >Mahatmas of Olcott - you are absolutely and sadly right. Have i not seen >the thing for nearly eight years? Have I not struglled and fought against >Olcott's ardent and gushing imagination and tried to stop him every day of >my life" > >(as an aside (esp for Thoa) - HPB smoked Hashish daily) No wonder that she, too, could perform psychic feats. From the age of 2-7, I was raised by a Vietnamese village woman who chewed on leaves spread with red opium(?) paste. That was her morning routine. There was nothing wrong with it. She worked selling wares at a stand, and had a very placid life. It's all in the culture and the attitude. The drug culture of the young in the U.S., though, is damaging. It's a different attitude altogether. This is from personal observation. >from the frying pan, Into my grill! I hope you're tasty and juicy. ;o) >the mighty NOS Skewered and basted. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 16:01:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti and theosophists, pro & con Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980407210128.00e06ef0@mail.eden.com> If you can mail me a photo copy, I can get it scanned and posted here. ..mkr At 02:14 PM 4/7/98 -0400, you wrote: >April 7th 1998 > >Dallas writes: > >Concerning the Adyar property. > >This what I recall history says about it: > >The Adyar property was purchased (around 1880/81) by H.P.B. and >Col. Olcott using their own private funds, they used the property >and the houses on it, as it was their joint property, to house >the T S. headquarters. > >It is situated about 11 miles south of Madras Fort, and is just >south of the Adyar river on the sea coast. > >The S.P.R. Hodgson Report came out in December 1884 and created a >furor -- HPB returned to India early in 1885 to demonstrate that >she had nothing to fear and, to defend the honor of the T S and >of the Masters. > >When in 1885 HPB was "banished" by the Council who refused to let >her take the risk of appearing in a court case involving the >Madras missionaries who slandered her, >( reviving the old "Russian Spy" theory, which the Indian >Government had verified was wrong ), Col. Olcott had her sign a >legal declaration whereby she "renounced" all ownership in Adyar >property or its effects. She gave this so that if a judgment >against her were made, her ownership would not entail the said >property. She left, very ill with Dr. Franz Hartman and another >friend who was her Doctor as companions for her to be with and >help her on the voyage. > >Years later when requested by some of the Indian theosophists to >return she wrote a letter and asked Bertam Keightley to carry it >with him to Col. Olcott to be published in THEOSOPHIST. Bertram >Keightley was visiting India in April 1890, and he carried this >letter in which she carefully explained the situation and why she >could not return to India although urged to do so by many after >the period of 1885, when there had been a change of heart and >fear had been banished. > >It was entitled: > > WHY I DO NOT RETURN TO INDIA. > >It was not immediately published in THEOSOPHIST (as it ought to >have been) but was privately circulated to a few. > >Many years later, after her death, it was published in >THEOSOPHIST for October 1898 pp 23-4, and again in July 1929. > >It is currently in print on p. 106 of the 1st Vol. of HPB >ARTICLES, published by Theosophy Company, Los Angeles. > >It reviews the exact sequence of affairs in India and the measure >of the Masters' influence is made plain there. > >It is a letter that every student of Theosophy ought to be >acquainted with, and if desired I can publish it for all to read >here. > > Best wishes, Dallas > >-----Original Message----- >From: M K Ramadoss >To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >Date: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 8:52 AM >Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti and theosophists, pro & con > > >>At 09:20 AM 4/7/98 EDT, you wrote: >>>In a message dated 98-04-06 23:59:47 EDT, Govert wrote: >>> >>><< Personally I think that K's failure to qualify for vehicle >for Maitreya >>>and his denouncements of the Masters and theosophy, created so >much confusion >>>within theosophical circles that it started the decline of the >TS. That the >>>TS did not fold completely is not due to K challenging beliefs >and concepts, >>>but to the fact that it >>> was already a viable organization with a body of very relevant >literature >>>and the backing of the Masters. Rather than vitalizing the TS >I am afraid >>>that the teachings of K sap its strength. The TS is not aware >of this, >>>because it is still in a state of shock and denial regarding >what really >>>happened. >> >>> >>>I agree with the above. I noticed when I visited Australia two >years ago, the >>>TS there was split into a pro-Krishnamurti school and a >pro-Geoffrey Hodson, >>>CWL, AB school, the Krishnamurti-ites being ensconced at Nat'l >HQ in downtown >>>Sydney and the neo-theosophists centered around The Manor. >> >>It is not surprising at all. On the one hand, we those of the >"Catholic" >>approach and "Non-Catholic" approach, former belonging to the >traditional TS >>approach especially after AB&CWL. [I will post a lecture on this >topic by >>Besant after a week.] >> >>One can sense this same kind of attitudes in the TSA also. At >least in the >>TSA we have not gotten to the level of two schools ensconced at >two >>buildings. [Don't be surprised if this happens!] >> >>The fact that Radha Burnier had known him all her life and of >course she >>must have been affected by his teachings may have something to >do about the >>shift in emphasis within TS. It was at K's urging, Radha Burnier >ran for the >>office of International President and won. >> >>Several years ago my brother visited Krotona and when he >inquired about >>directions to KFA he could did not get any help. Ojai is not a >big place and >>KFA is perhaps most well known organization there. >> >> >>> >>>I have problems with Krishnamurti myself. He was an alleged >"non-guru" with >>>tens of thousands of devotees. He rejected the TS yet he always >maintained >>>centers conveniently located near major TS compounds, Ojai and >Adyar being >>>examples. >> >>The location of these institutions are historical. K never had a >hand in >>location of Ojai or Adyar. Ojai property was originally donated >by TS >>member and the Adyar property was built, I think by the Star >Trust. I would >>not read too much into it. For example there is the Rishi Valley >school >>which is quite far from Adyar and has been in existence for a >long time. >> >>> >>>His approach is basically that of a southern Buddhist, the >neti-neti path (God >>>is not this, God is not that). This is the most difficult of >all paths to >>>follow in my opinion. The iti-iti path of "God is this, God is >that" is >>>easier. It leads to bhakti yoga, devotion to God in one's >favourite form, >>>whether it be an avatar or guru. I realize that the two paths >are a matter of >>>choice. >>> >>> Krishnamurti complained in his last days that no one >understood his >>>philosophy (from Radha Schloss' book). People used to come to >me with the same >>>complaint and I told them I couldn't help them because I didn't >understand it >>>either. I finally got a better grasp of his teachings after >reading Rohit >>>Meta's book THE NAMELESS EXPERIENCE. >>> >> >>It took me almost two decades to get an inkling of what he is >talking. >> >> >>>Krishnamurti had a perfect right to expound and dispense his >philosophy, and >>>they're many people, including some on this List, who think >highly of him. But >>>or me, well, his teachings aren't my cup of tea frankly. I >think there were >>>many theosophists who felt the same way. Many acknowledge that >he created a >>>great division in the TS which is still healing. >>> >>>Lmhem111 >> >>As I had mentioned earlier, if his message means something to >anyone, then >>that is of value to that person. After all we are all searching >and >>hopefully we will understand better. >> >>mkr >> >> >>-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- >theos-talk@theosophy.com >> >>Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >>teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message >consisting of >>"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to >theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 23:00:02 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Arhat and saint hoods Message-ID: Head Fiend: >Hats, as you should know, are available only from the supplier named >below: > >>As for the leather goods, I am getting my goods direct from Uncle Chuckie's >>Underworld Blackmarket. Thank you for your help. (fine-tuning forks in the colander helmet) "Tran"smitting, "tran"smitting... >The price for Saint Alan (to be sent to layperson Alan) is a mere $50 in >used bills. You may, if you wish, once your charter has been sent, style >yourself "Saint Alan of Thoa" or "Saint Alan of Tran" Thus you will >be "tran"sformed (sorry). 50 bucks! 8oO I thought it was cheap! How about 50 cents? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:18:25 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Beatrice Woods dies Message-ID: This just appeared on Zee-list. >Date: 98-04-06 12:21:15 EDT >Subject: Beatrice Woods Dies Recently Beatrice Wood died in Ojai at the ripe old age of 104 years old. She was very active as an artist. And in fact recently, her works were featured in the Santa Barbara Museum of Art. Beatrice Wood was a beautiful wonderful person with a magical persona of great import. She had romantic affairs with likes of Dali and many famous artists of the period. Perhaps, her most revealing multi-media cassette explored a whore house in Europe. In it she mirrors many aspects of her life experience. For it is ever the game...the gentlemen who for no reason leaves his prized maiden to explore the house of irrepute. Actually, Beatrice describes the house in a wonderful erotic filled way. She was totally into free-love. Even at 104 she invoked a sense of mystery and erotic energy. Beatrice was a first class initiate of art and magick. Although her magical thematic strand was verbal and artistic; she had a enchanting power which was incredible. I remember her studio; the power the strength of its energy. And this tender, brilliant old lady working her crude materials to make these artistic however crude looking pottery. Yes, We have lost Burroughs, and now Beatrice. May we all learn from their lives...how to live better and more completely in the ever destructive world of present day civilization. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:53:27 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Wood Message-ID: <35294ED7.BD31EF99@gate.net> Greetings, Re: Woods boook, "Is this Theiosophy", Jerry Hejka-Ekins had good quality photocopies of the book. I purchased mine for $ 20,00 + post. You may want to contact him and see if he has any available.It is a mind bender of a book and gives a slant that is not ecumenical about the way the International and then the TSA eveolved. -K- MKR wrote, > Good suggestion. However, it is almost impossible to find Wood's book - "Is > This Theosophy?". Has anyone found a source of supply? The Emily Sellon Memorial Library in New York has a copy. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:20:48 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: New Anti Cancer Drug? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980406182048.012644b0@mail.eden.com> Everytime you turn on any TV channel today, you find this drug is discussed as a panacia for a lot of women. Many may be interested in the following. So I am posting it to theos-l and ti-l. mkr >Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:00:59 -0400 >From: Betty Martini >To: constitution@ajc.com >Subject: Tamoxifen, Tears and Terror Dear Editor: I read the article DRUG NEARLY HALVES BREAST CANCER. Actually, it was the Atlanta Constitution that has done such an excellent expose on Tamoxifen. Some of the titles by Jeff Nesmith of your Washington Bureau says it all: News of cancer death-tamoxifen link delayed Uproar over faked data slows breast cancer study (3/30/94) Tamoxifen deaths kept in dark (4/23/94) Breast cancer study warnings were rejected (3/19/94) Tamoxifen, is a controversial synthetic hormone also sold in England as Nolvadex. A world best seller to the tone of $500 million a year, it's sold to women after breast surgery to prevent cancer from spreading to the other breast. Science News of March 4, l989 reported slight benefits: 9% in one study, 6% in another, but the negative effects increased by hundreds of percent! A Swedish trial indicated a 400% increased risk of endometrial cancer for those 5 years on tamoxifen. With longer use the risk might be higher as "duration (of use) is more important than dosage" said Flora van Leeuwen of the Netherlands Cancer Institute. What she said is easy to understand: few smokers get cancer from tobacco in five years; it takes time. A five year study would probably pronounce nicotine as safe as nectarines. they want to dose us with Tamoxifen for life but only count the corpses for five years. The bottom line is that the longer you take this ""preventative" the more likely you are to die of cancer! A March 1994 Journal of Clinical Oncology report showed that 67% of the tumors in tamoxifen users were "high-grade" compared to only 24% of endometrial cancers in other women, which works out to an 180% increase in bad tumors. For women with breast tumors who were later diagnosed with endometrial cancer the interval averaged 12 years for those who did not use Tamoxifen. This shortened to 5 years for users of the drug. Perhaps they should rename it TUMOR OFTEN! R. J. Kedar of King's College School of Medicine and Dentistry in London studies 61 women in a tamoxifen trial and said: "Our study detected endometrial abnormalities at various times from THE FIRST TABLET OF TAMOXIFEN." The endometrium appeared abnormally thick in 24 of these women (39%) and 10 of these underwent potentially pre-cancerous changes. Science News reported that in this test only 5 of the 50 women given a placebo had an abnormal endometrium, and none showed the cell changes. The score was 10 to Zero against Tamoxifen. (Science News, June 4, 1994 - Study Reaffirms Tamoxifen's Dark Side). Imperial Chemical Industries, with its affiliate Zeneca Group PLC got the National Cancer Institute to spring for a $68,000,000 "study" on 11,000 victims to procure a blessing on TAMOXIFEN as a "breast cancer preventative." Then Imperial cut a deal with the University of Pittsburgh to have Dr. Bernard Fisher lead the tests on healthy female volunteers. Imperial also cut a $600,000 check to the University of Pittsburgh in honor of Doc Fisher. No sense taking a chance the test results won't be good with billions$ at stake! The tests began in 1992 without telling the women that Tamoxifen caused fatal endometrial cancer , serious eye damage and blood clots which can lead to strokes. The UP and Imperial knew this from an earlier 5 year test in which the Tamoxifen group developed 23 womb cancers while the untreated control group had only 2 such malignancies. SCORE: Tamoxifen cancer increase, 1,050%! Imperial/Zeneca and U of P concealed these hazards from the volunteers in the 1993 test, fearing "potential negative publicity" (Let the women die!) / This is the same Zeneca that was being sued by the United States and the State of California for allegedly dumping DDT and PCBS into Los Angeles and Long Beach harbors. In June of 1993 they demerged from Imperial Chemical Industries. Zeneca also makes $300 million worth of carcinogenic herbicide called acetochlor every year. First they give us cancer with a poison, then they concoct another to treat us! Under the headline "Uproar Over Faked Data" the Atlanta Constitution on March 30, 1994 revealed that for two years the organizers of the Tamoxifen study knew a Canadian researcher submitted fake data on more than 100 women. Included in his phony research was follow-up data on a woman who was already dead for two years. Dr. Fisher was removed from the program. Two epidemiologists, Dr. Trudy Bush and Dr. Kathy Halzosouer, predict endometrial cancers plus other side effects; eye damage and strokes which have been ignored in the damage estimates for the test. On Dec 14, l994 Dr. Bush (University of Maryland School of Medicine), told me when I mentioned Tamoxifen has to target other organs - "I tried to tell them, they wouldn't listen". She gave me the new predictions for the study: 122 breast cancers will be avoided (hopeful guess) 84 endometrial cancers will be caused (could be more) ??? Side effects, eye damage, strokes, etc. (not considered) If Tamoxifen creates 84 endometrial cancers in 5 years, how many more will it cause in 6 or 10 years, or a lifetime? Suppose there was a great new experimental drug for testicular cancer and the NCI funded $70 million for a test on 16,000 young men in good health. Further suppose the designers of the test predicted it would prevent 122 cases of cancer of the testicles, but would require 84 penildectomies. Additionally, an unknown number of the guys would go blind, and others would have a stroke and lose the ability to speak; but these injuries were not to be considered. How many would sign up for the test? Just imagine that by some crazy crooked contrivances this stuff got approved by the FDA as a cancer preventative; how would it sell to American males for just $1200/year. Ever since God created Eve men have admired our breasts as enchanting symbols of feminity, beauty, motherhood, nurture and grace. Vulgar Zeneca sees them only as a crass business opportunity! In his book INDICTED: CANCER RESEARCH, Tibor J. Hegedus PhD says: "Tamoxifen is given to women with breast cancer to block the entrance of estradiol into the tumor cells dependant upon this hormone to stimulate growth. When the hormones are blocked from reaching their primary targets, they are forced to travel to other organs." This stimulates proliferation of cells in the lining of the womb, and in certain cases Bingo: Endometrial Cancer! Dr. Hegedus says other side effects are nausea, vomiting, menstrual irregularities, vaginal bleeding, pulmonary embolism. "Tamoxifen stimulates cell proliferation by sensitizing cells to proliferative effects of IGF-I" wrote L R Wiseman, Pathologist at the Royal Victoria Infirmary, in a paper on breast cancer. IGF, is a hormone designed to make things grow up, calves and babies, it also stimulates and accelerates cancer in sensitized women, those taking Tamoxifen. One of the reasons for the uproar in Monsanto marketing the bovine growth hormone which is injected into cows is the outrageous increase in IGF (insulin growth factor) which will yield a firestorm of cancer from the milk. A chemical company is selling us a gasoline named Tamoxifen to put out the fire. >From the book MILK: THE DEADLY POISON by Robert Cohen it says: "The single most disturbing aspect of rBGH from a human safety standpoint, concerns Insulin-like Growth Factor-I (IGF-1), which is linked to breast cancer. IGF-I occurs naturally in human beings as well as cows, but rBGH injections cause substantial and sustained increases of IGF-I levels in milk says Samuels S Epstein, M.D., professor of occupational and environmental medicine at the Illinois School of Public Health. Worse yet, 'IGF-I is not destroyed by pasteurization, survives the digestive process, is absorbed into the blood and produces potent growth promoting effects," according to Epstein. He says it is highly likely that IGF-I helps transform normal breast tissue to cancerous cells, and enables malignant human breast cancer cells to invade and spread to distant organs." Get the picture? Can you imagine anyone using both the milk and Tamoxifen!!? In l994 I wrote in an article: "Tamoxifen has been tested and retested for more than 15 years. The testers admitted fraud, many contraindications were just ignored, test results were limited in duration and after-effects not tallied, though women sickened and died from them. The tests didn't prove the stuff works, so they're doing them over again, with your money. They'll keep testing until they can figure a way to rig the results in favor of healthy women buying the poison for a disease we don't have, but the drug will give it to us!" Is that day here? In April, l996 the World Health Organization of the United Nations formerly declared Tamoxifen a carcinogen, but Zeneca wants to market it anyway. To take a carcinogen to stop the spread the cancer is simply Russian Roulette using an automatic! As founder of Mission Possible International, warning the world off the deadly neurotoxin aspartame (marketed as NutraSweet, Equal, Spoonful, etc.) I am familiar with industry research. Two U.S. Prosecutors were told to indict Searle, the original manufacturer of aspartame, for fraud. (Monsanto bought Searle in l985). Both prosecutors went to work for the law firm defending the case and let the statute of limitations expire. When the District Attorney goes to work for the godfather accept acquittal. These same studies ended up approving aspartame when Dr. Arthur Hull Hayes, FDA Commissioner, over-ruled his own Board of Inquiry. Then he went to work for the PR firm of the manufacturer and has refused to speak to the press ever since. The FDA report last 92 documented symptoms from four types of seizures to coma and death. No doubt more people have died from aspartame than victims in many wars. I hope that more will be written about Tamoxifen bringing out its past coverups, the subjects in the studies who lost their lives to endometrial cancer, and other information that will prevent women from consuming a carcinogen to stop the spread of cancer. Notwithstanding triumphs of science that benefit humanity, we must bear in mind that scientists are only human. They are not beyond temptation and corruption. Their motives are not always noble. Truly, science has its proper place in society, but it is not an infallible guiding light in an ever darkening world. Today we see so much fraud in science that consumers must now take responsibility for their own health. Betty Martini, Founder Mission Possible International 770 242-2599 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:26:04 +0900 From: dport@ozemail.com.au Subject: Masters as Metaphor Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980407102604.006a9608@ozemail.com.au> Two new books by K. Paul Johnson (Masters Revealed and Initiates of The Theosophical Masters) were reviewed in the March-April issue of New Dawn. A quotation - " The original advent of the Mahatmas (mAsters) was within the framework of the system developed by Madame Blavatsky. This system was modified, transformed and , many would say, distorted by the various factional movements that developed within Theosophy. Certainly the Theosophy of Charles Leadbeater and Annie Besant seems at odds with the esotericism found in The Secret Doctrine, Blavatsky's majot theosophical treatise. The problem was that the "Ascended Master" mythos that began with Blavatsky took on a life of its own. The Masters became democratic, and thus the Masters began to speak to everyone" And so on. Then this quote from HPB's collected writings, vol 3. in a letter to Franz Hartmann- "where you speak of the 'army' of the deluded - and the 'imaginary' Mahatmas of Olcott - you are absolutely and sadly right. Have i not seen the thing for nearly eight years? Have I not struglled and fought against Olcott's ardent and gushing imagination and tried to stop him every day of my life" (as an aside (esp for Thoa) - HPB smoked Hashish daily) from the frying pan, the mighty NOS * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:21:10 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Beatrice Woods dies Message-ID: The Heretic: >Yes, We have lost Burroughs, and now Beatrice. > >May we all learn from their lives...how to live better and more >completely in the ever destructive world of present day civilization. "THAT GUN'S GOT BLOOD IN ITS HOLE" Burroughs shot and killed a person (wife?) in a drunken rage, Oh, the glamor of a life living unsquared... In art school, I sat through a half hour film from an Austrian woman, showing her masterbating and stretching open her labia. Afterwards, I went to the next room and listened to a painter talk about his paintings of himself running through the street slashing people, their throats slit with blood flowing. We all yawned. The children of Dada have gotten institutional and unoriginal. It's like watching another rocker demolish his guitar. "NOTHING IS TRUE--EVERYTHING IS PERMITTED--" Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:21:34 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: New Anti Cancer Drug? Message-ID: Thanks, Doss, for posting this. I don't have breast cancer in my family, but I do keep an eye out for news dealing with women's health. Thoa :o) >Everytime you turn on any TV channel today, you find this drug is discussed >as a panacia for a lot of women. Many may be interested in the following. >So I am posting it to theos-l and ti-l. > >mkr >====================================== > >Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:00:59 -0400 >From: Betty Martini >To: constitution@ajc.com >Subject: Tamoxifen, Tears and Terror > >Dear Editor: I read the article DRUG NEARLY HALVES BREAST CANCER. >Actually, it was the Atlanta Constitution that has done such an excellent >expose on Tamoxifen. Some of the titles by Jeff Nesmith of your >Washington Bureau says it all: > >News of cancer death-tamoxifen link delayed >Uproar over faked data slows breast cancer study (3/30/94) >Tamoxifen deaths kept in dark (4/23/94) >Breast cancer study warnings were rejected (3/19/94) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 01:52:36 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Arhat and saint hoods Message-ID: <0A+gLPAUjXK1Ewrm@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Thoa Tran writes >>The price for Saint Alan (to be sent to layperson Alan) is a mere $50 in >>used bills. You may, if you wish, once your charter has been sent, style >>yourself "Saint Alan of Thoa" or "Saint Alan of Tran" Thus you will >>be "tran"sformed (sorry). > >50 bucks! 8oO I thought it was cheap! How about 50 cents? > >Thoa :o) OK - please send in used $50 bills From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 08:51:53 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1483 Message-ID: <45c6331d.35277e6a@aol.com> Chuck, How did you become the Resurrected Heretic? Just curious, Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:16:29 EDT From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1483 Message-ID: <19396ac3.3527842f@aol.com> Thoa, I think you just offered a very thoughtful view of that hen-and-egg issue. I agree that the hard work of the spiritual search must precede attempts at enhancement of experience. Most intriguing was your question about being constantly in the mystical state. I have struggled with this for quite some time, wishing I could spend huge blocks of time on the other side. I currently believe I must be on this side a sufficient amount of time to deal appropriately with our material reality and, perhaps, to glimpse a few glimmers for giggles along the way. Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 10:08:48 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World greetings Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980405100848.008658e0@mail.eden.com> Good suggestion. However, it is almost impossible to find Wood's book - "Is This Theosophy?". Has anyone found a source of supply? May be it is time to convert it into a pdf file and make it available on the net. It would be a breakthrough possible only because of the net. BTW, does anyone have a copy in any electronic medium? mkr PS: The two books are a required reading for anyone interested in Theosophy and Theosophical History. The book by distasteful, is extremely well documented and recently I had to verify a fact described in it and was found that a living person was able to corroborate and confirm the accuracy from personal knowledge. Also to this date I have not seen a single comment on either book disputing anything in them. The books stand on their own and anyone who has not read them should do so ASAP. At 04:24 PM 4/4/1998 -0500, Ken Malkin wrote: >Howdy Jeffrey, > >Glad you are aboard. > >In an effort to round out your TS interests, you may wish to add to your reading >"Is This Theosphy" by Wood and "The Elder Brother" by Tillet. Further, Cohorts may indeed >be an apt name. I think not though for for the Masters who vivified HPB's endeavors. > >She exhorted her readers and those who to seek a spiritual direction to effort the >development of one's intuition and discernment. I agree with that and the ancient addage; >those that know, do not say, those that say, do not know. > >I look forward to reading of your interests. > >Ken Malkin > > >Jeffrey Michael Hoover wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> Please let me introduce myself. I am glad you-all have a since of humor as I >> didn't realize I could send a "test message" without being officially signed >> up! Thanks for your return "test messages" sent in Loving kindness!! >> >> I have studied Theosophy for five years or so and find it quite enlightening. >> I am 34 and have worked in computing technologies for over ten years. I have a >> BS in business from Kansas University with a specialization in microcomputer >> application design, programming and instruction. I have spent two years on >> sabbatical doing matras (or decrees) and studying under the current GWB >> Messenger. I understand the PROCESS of becoming Love in Action much better >> than the massive amount of wonderful teachings on Wisdom Religions that HPB and >> her many cohorts like you have since amassed. >> >> The current Messenger has made several comments for those studying under her >> to go back and study Leadbeater's books and general Theosophy to gain a better >> understanding of the Wisdom Religions and the process of initiation under the >> Master's tutelage. I look forward to learning from your great wealth. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jeffrey Michael Hoover >> 11027 W. 108th Terrace >> Shawnee Mission, KS 66210-3204 >> (913) 338-3003 >> Jeffrey.Hoover@InternetMCI.com > > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:00:13 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1483 Message-ID: <9d261768.3527aa8f@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-05 08:55:51 EDT, you write: >How did you become the Resurrected Heretic? > >Just curious, >Julien I came back from the dead (being out of contact with the world). Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:36:34 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: The Heretic Message-ID: >In a message dated 98-04-05 08:55:51 EDT, you write: > >>How did you become the Resurrected Heretic? >> >>Just curious, >>Julien > >I came back from the dead (being out of contact with the world). > >Chuck the Heretic That's why the news have been uneventful, no celebrity deaths, Saddam backed down, and no weather calamity. Even Cornwall haven't had any electrical break down. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:37:01 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World ACT Newsletter Message-ID: <3522510D.B8D71298@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > MKR: This is issue is a very serious matter. It goes to the heart of the > integrity of election process. Even a linger doubt can do serious harm to > any organization. So any price is worth paying. IRONIC MODE ON OK, then I'll do it. It will cost $1,000,000. IRONIC MODE OFF > country. So the cost issue should not be a deterrent or an excuse for not > implementing it. Perhaps the members of ACT can even suggest a firm to do the audit, with an estimated price. That's all I really suggested. > Also if there is a member of TSA whose firm is willing to do it pro bono, > then cost would be a non-issue. I think if a TSA member does it, then it doesn't count as an audit. The idea is to have a disinterested party do the ballot counting. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:38:39 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980401153839.00dd1064@mail.eden.com> At 09:39 AM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> To be charitable, it looks more like either it is due to lack of >> understanding of the usefulness and the power of Internet or due to they >> being new to the technology. > > They aren't using television, either. > > Bart Lidofsky Nothing surprises me either. M K R From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:38:41 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT/TSA Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980401153841.00dd2684@mail.eden.com> At 09:49 AM 4/1/98 -0500, Bart wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> MKR: This is issue is a very serious matter. It goes to the heart of the >> integrity of election process. Even a linger doubt can do serious harm to >> any organization. So any price is worth paying. >>>> clip<<<<<<<< >> country. So the cost issue should not be a deterrent or an excuse for not >> implementing it. > > Perhaps the members of ACT can even suggest a firm to do the audit, with an >estimated price. That's all I really suggested. The intent is not an audit which is after the fact. >> Also if there is a member of TSA whose firm is willing to do it pro bono, >> then cost would be a non-issue. > > I think if a TSA member does it, then it doesn't count as an audit. The idea >is to have a disinterested party do the ballot counting. The intent is to use a CPA Firm. Even a financial audit can be done by a CPA firm and even if it is pro-bono and there is no conflict of interest. This is very well established all over the country. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:55:05 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The April THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The April issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Globes, Planes, and Principles" by Eldon Tucker "H.P. Blavatsky and the Rays" by Alan E. Donant "Regarding Saint Germain" by L. Gordon Plummer "Online Theosophical Mailing Lists" "Rules of the Mystical Schools" by G. de Purucker "Druidism: The Theosophy of Ancient Wales" Part I, by Kenneth Morris "Questioning Geoffrey Farthing's Manifesto" by Paul Johnson "Theosophists and Buddhism" by G. de Purucker "Awaken!" by Harold Merry "The Experience of the Spiritual" by Eldon Tucker "Are the Masters Active Today?" by L. Gordon Plummer "The Neoplatonic Revival" THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:11:47 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <93251290.3522bbaa@aol.com> I'm BAAAAAACKKKKK!!!!! I'm going to stay out of the ACT debate for a while, until I know more about it since I have been sort of out of touch for the last couple months, but on the surface, anything that will bring more openess to the TS would seem to be a good thing. Chuck the Resurrected Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:15:22 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Internet and Catholic Bishops & Cardinals Message-ID: <92217312.3522bc7e@aol.com> In a message dated 98-03-27 10:14:19 EST, you write: >``The Internet can be stunningly, stunningly immoral,'' he said. ``It has the >power to corrupt absolutely, Yahoo!!!!! And now that I'm back... Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:26:38 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: is the TS anti-initiatory? Message-ID: <72170f97.3522bf20@aol.com> In a message dated 98-03-30 20:35:02 EST, you write: >. I think it is time the TS came out >publically against the War on Drugs and provided information regarding >SOMA, initation rituals (eluesinian, bacchian, shamanic etc), LSD & Jungian >Depth Psychology etc. > >Hail Discordia! Hail Eris! > >The Mighty NOS AMEN Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:52:51 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Theosophical Use of the Internet Message-ID: <3522C543.1D6F54B8@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> To be charitable, it looks more like either it is due to lack of > >> understanding of the usefulness and the power of Internet or due to they > >> being new to the technology. > > > > They aren't using television, either. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Nothing surprises me either. Actually, the TSA IS using the Internet. And they are actively looking for (have found?) a computer person for their full-time staff, who, among other things, will enhance their Internet output. I have expressed a willingness to help them remotely but their major problem is twofold. 1) They have a Windows NT server. This would be great if they were planning to hook into Microsoft Office-generated data, but this is not the case. This makes secure remote access technically very difficult. 2) There is nobody on site who fully understands the security issues, making remote access operationally nearly impossible, since they take a "better be safe than sorry" attitude. If a UNIX system were used, Eldon or I could have installed a remote log-in system with firewalls. The NYTS has a static IP (didn't go out of its way to get it, just has it), so security woudl be relatively simple, IF they had the tools and the know-how at their end, for me to get telnet and ftp access. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:33:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: In message <93251290.3522bbaa@aol.com>, Drpsionic writes >I'm BAAAAAACKKKKK!!!!! AAAAAAARGGGHH!!!!!! --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:04:21 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <6db58a82.35231c57@aol.com> In a message dated 98-04-01 20:08:00 EST, you write: > writes >>I'm BAAAAAACKKKKK!!!!! > > AAAAAAARGGGHH!!!!!! You must have known it was too good to be true. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:32:13 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theosophical Use of the Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980401233213.00a35bd0@mail.eden.com> The most important issue, IMHO, is the top level "vision" of how Internet/e-mail/maillist/newsgroups is going to be used will determine the success and not the technical expertise. Will have to wait and see. If past is any indication, I take a dim view of the success. I may be wrong. Let us see. mkr At 06:01 PM 4/1/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> >> To be charitable, it looks more like either it is due to lack of >> >> understanding of the usefulness and the power of Internet or due to they >> >> being new to the technology. >> > >> > They aren't using television, either. >> > >> > Bart Lidofsky >> >> Nothing surprises me either. > > Actually, the TSA IS using the Internet. And they are actively looking for >(have found?) a computer person for their full-time staff, who, among other >things, will enhance their Internet output. I have expressed a willingness to >help them remotely but their major problem is twofold. > > 1) They have a Windows NT server. This would be great if they were planning >to hook into Microsoft Office-generated data, but this is not the case. This >makes secure remote access technically very difficult. > > 2) There is nobody on site who fully understands the security issues, >making remote access operationally nearly impossible, since they take a "better >be safe than sorry" attitude. > > If a UNIX system were used, Eldon or I could have installed a remote log-in >system with firewalls. The NYTS has a static IP (didn't go out of its way to >get it, just has it), so security woudl be relatively simple, IF they had the >tools and the know-how at their end, for me to get telnet and ftp access. > > Bart Lidofsky > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:38:42 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Ballots Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980401233842.00b43cb0@mail.eden.com> At 11:52 PM 4/1/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Bart, > >Please clarify the meaning of the following paragraph ; > >Strangely enough, the courses we give for free are those which most >attract people who are trying to "follow the money". This is part of the >cultural phenomenon. If it's given away for free or very cheaply, then >it is going to attract people for whom money is the prime object, at >least in contemporary American culture. > > >Further, do you agree with an independant vote count at Wheaton for the >upcoming elections or do you believe that the White House should be allowed >to count the presidential ballots? >Ken Malkin > The counting is the easiest part of it. Let me add the following. It is the whole chain of processes starting with mailout of the ballots, return of the ballots, custody of the ballots until they are counted and finally counting itself. The integrity of the whole process is what is at issue. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 00:49:38 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Ballots Message-ID: <352326F2.EBE98370@sprynet.com> > >Further, do you agree with an independant vote count at Wheaton for the > >upcoming elections or do you believe that the White House should be allowed > >to count the presidential ballots? I already said I agreed with the independent count, provided that the cost was not prohibitive. How would you like me to clarify this further? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:08:38 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: is the TS anti-initiatory? Message-ID: >In a message dated 98-03-30 20:35:02 EST, you write: > >>. I think it is time the TS came out >>publically against the War on Drugs and provided information regarding >>SOMA, initation rituals (eluesinian, bacchian, shamanic etc), LSD & Jungian >>Depth Psychology etc. >> >>Hail Discordia! Hail Eris! >> >>The Mighty NOS > >AMEN > >Chuck the Heretic Talk about drugs, and he comes crawling out of the hole! Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:08:51 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: is the TS anti-initiatory? Message-ID: Alan: >Arhat-hoods available for all qualified initiates who have taken our >$1000 course are free. Others may obtain them at special rates (poa) >and they are available in all regular and especially large sizes. > >(Note: these should not be worn at night. For night wear contact our >UK branch who can supply knighthoods - archaic spelling). > >Arhats Inc. I would like my size to be in medium like HPB. I know that Bart will claim that she is an extra-large at the very least. However, even with two arhats and their turbans inside her, she is definitely a medium. BTW, how much do sainthoods go for? I would like one, please, to go with my new name, Germain. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:09:04 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Is the TS anti-initiatory? Message-ID: Hi NOS, Firstly, my comments on my drug-using ex-friends were not meant to describe you or anyone else that I do not know. It's more a reflection of a teenager's wasted 1.5 year. Actually, it was a year that turned me from being an uncertain teenager to a woman who knows what is right for her. I found out it was alright to declare what I do not like and act on it. The NOS knows: >Of course, meditation is probably the safest method of acquiring inner >silence and I would recommend that any user of psychedelics practice >meditation regularly. But we are in the Kali Yuga, how many people are we >going to get to turn off Friends, Seinfeld and ER and sit down for 20-30 >mins a day and meditate? For me personally and a lot of my friends, we >would never have encountered esoteric thought if we hadn't had certain >psychedelic experiences that caused a wholesale paradigm shift. This is kind of backward, isn't it? In spiritual practice, wouldn't it be best to develop your foundation-compassion, moral strength, and knowledge, before you embark on the fast road? Shouldn't it be that once you have developed an awareness of the mysteries, taking psychedelics is an addendum, and not an important part of gaining insight. Spiritual practice is a lifetime and serious commitment. If you can't set aside 20-30 minutes a day to meditate, then how can you say that you are serious about it? The problem with such a backward route is that people will feel that using psychedelics is the only way that they will connect with the mystery. Since they have not developed themselves, the connection will be brief. To compensate, they continue relying on the psychedelics for that connection. This is materialistic and not spiritual. Perhaps using psychedelics will inspire people to further their search. But if they can't even spend 20-30 minutes of daily meditation, I doubt if they will do the hard part of spiritual search. >I would also like to point out the obvious differences between >psycheledics, hallucinogens, narcotics and stimulants. The group I am most >concerned with is the psychedelics - Amanita Muscaria , Psyilocybin >Cubensis, LSD, Peyote, Ayahuasca and DMT (and possibly to a lesser extent >Hashish)etc. These drugs have been used in traditional rituals for >millenia, they are the original sacrament not some placebo bread and wine. It is also so with animal and human sacrifices. I won't go into other potentially dangerous rituals that were traditional. >The story about the Yogi - is it the Ram Dass one? - It turned out 25 years >later the yogi had not even consumed the acid. I was in Madras and >Bangalore last year - Sai Baba consumes inordinate amounts of hashish to >enter the state that enables him to manifest physical items. Yes, it was Ram Dass one. It was a while ago that I heard that story. Thus, it's a foggy file. What Sai Baba did is probably not for most people. Preparation is the key. I don't think most people are at the level of Sai Baba. >I was not talking about spiritual growth but initiation. We accept a lot of >the theosophical teachings because they have a resonance with us I suppose, >but it is not until you have been 'turned on' that it all falls into place. If you're 'turned on' and it inspires you to delve deeper into spiritual practice, more power to you. As I said, if you can't spend 20-30 minutes a day meditating, how are you going to do the rest of the work? >You don't mention what king of drugs. If they are using everyday then it is >probably cannabis or amphetamines or heroin, these drugs do not provide any >spiritual growth. Can you also say yourself that you don't consume alcohol, >tobacco, chocolate or watch TV? These drugs do more damage to the >individual and society in a week than all the acid dropped from it's >discovery till now. >My non-drug using friends are generally less tolerant, more racist, more >egotistical, more materialistic and completely closed to any new ideas. I >can't even bring up reincarnation without looks of derision. I apologize if I ended up making a generalization of drug-users. I meant to describe the people from my experience. The types of drug used ranged from psychedelics such as LSD, mushroom, to other drugs such as pot and cocaine, anything and everything that is mind-"enhancing". These people ended up having a materialistic view of drugs. Even those whose initial purpose was spiritual connection ended up losing their purpose. The latter group can talk to me about eastern spiritual concepts while in actuality are devotees to their bongs. You know that old adage, "if everyone smokes pot, there would be no war." My adages are, "Carpe Diem", "Eyes bright, hands quick, feet balanced," and "Be in the present moment." After I got away from that group, it was nice to talk to people whose mind are responsive and in the present. I was tired of looking at glazed eyes. As far as alcohol, tobacco, etc., those can also do damage. I'm guilty of consuming chocolate and watching TV myself. However, I eat chocolate only when my body craves it, which is not often, and I turn on the TV for news, comedy and as background noise when I'm by myself. As with usage of anything and doing anything, full awareness can help us adjust our life accordingly. >Education is the key. If the primary goal of our society was spirtiual >growth then we would be open to all methods and people would have a greater >understanding of the uses of pyschedelics AND meditatiion. The main problem >is that drugs like LSD are seen as recreational. I beleive that my body is >like a sovereign nation. As ruler of this country I have control of the >borders - i decide what goes in and what goes out. If it is my choice to >ingest a few hallucingenic mushrooms then I should be free to do so. Every >law is a reduction of rights and responsibilities. >If we just make a blanket decision to make these drugs illegal on the basis >of a few bad experiences by under-prepared travellers we are restricting >the rights of the individual. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Laws were meant to protect people. If the society was as you describe, then we would not need such laws, would we? Which comes first, the hen or the egg? Are the laws doing injustices to individuals? Or are the under-prepared travellers causing such laws to be necessary? Do you think that deleting these laws will cause fewer lung cancers, drunken driving, and drug addiction? I think that the laws are helping reduce such incidences. For myself, I'm glad that I can eat in a smoke-free restaurant. Psychedelics were all the rage in the 60's. Is the world any more enlightened from that? >I expect a big flame from the Homo Neophobus' on this, but let's just face >it if your not turned on then your a robot slave of the military-industrial >complex (insert United States of America). Psychedelics is nothing new. What was the rage comes around again, like 60's fashion. The same goes for declaration of "robot slave of the military-industrial complex." I've heard that song before. Whatever the gripe with the U.S. government, it's nothing compared to the injustices and neglect committed in other countries. I actually love the U.S., my adopted country. A real-life story relating to mind-alteration. I have a friend who is manic-depressive. His sanity is dependent on pills that he will have to take for the rest of his life. He loves delving into the mysteries. He tried to find it anywhere from Christianity to Paganism to Taoism. Once in a while, he deliberately not takes his medication so that he can go into a psychotic state, talking to God on the T.V., and seeing angels. In reality, he caused his family and friends grief through his scary erratic actions. Babysitting him is a challenging experience while he goes through mad rantings. I see his action as no different than someone deliberately consumming drugs to make a "religious" connection. I appreciate my clear mind and would not want to be in my friend's position. Maybe others would rather prefer to be in a constant "mystical" state? >Suggested reading for the Homo Neophilus: > >Food of the Gods, Terrence McKenna >Strange Fruit, Clark Heinrich >Psychedelic Shamanism, Jim de Korne >Alchemy, Johannes Fabricius > >Namaste' and Hail Eris > >NOS >:p Thanks for your input, NOS. Everyone should know what is right for themselves. Whatever you do, I hope that your journey is full of wisdom, compassion, and full-awareness. With that triad, you shouldn't fail. Namaste, Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:36:10 +0200 From: "Ringding" Subject: An important new booklet Message-ID: <01bd5da5$6c7780c0$0100007f@default> An interesting new booklet is available: Dr. Franz Hartmann's "Truth & Fiction - The Theosophical Society and the Miracle-Cabinet of Adyar". Robert Hütwohl did a nice job to translate this eyewitness report from the German and make it accessible now for the first time for English readers. I checked the translation and was surprised for the good quality. The cover text reads: "First written as correspondence to Arthur Weber, Franz "Hartmann's candid views about the Coulomb affair at "the headquarters of the Theosophical Society at Adyar, "Madras, India are extremely valuable on the early "history of the Theosophical Society. An updated "schematic rendering of the "occult room" is included, "which is "different than the one Hartmann first "published in his "A Report of Observations Made at the "Theosophical "Headquarters at Adyar in 1884." Hartmann "also states little known information about H.S. "Olcott's schemes "with the "shrine" and false Mahatma "letters. Acknowledging H.P. Blavatsky stood somewhere "in the middle "among the extreme opinions about her, "Hartmann attempts to purify the distortions. "Franz Hartmann also gives his reasons for his "long-held silence on the various issues confronting "the Theosophical Society which were expressed in his "satirical novel "The Talking Image of Urur". "He considered Heinrich Hensoldt's pamphlet, "Annie "Besant, eine wunderliche Heilige [... a strange "Saint] as damaging in its views towards H.P. "Blavatsky, Annie Besant and other Theosophists "and at least makes an effort to correct those "distortions about Blavatsky." It is easy to read and indeed of much worth. Every student of Theosophy should have a copy on his shelf. The booklet has 31 pages and costs $10,95 + $1,50 pp. The ISBN is: 0-9651315-3-X, available from Spirit of the Sun Publications, POB 2894, Santa Fe, NM 87504-2894. Roberts email is: nagah@aol.com. Ringding Frank German Theos. Central Archives - Searching for the lost German journals and books. Information & inquiries always welcome - From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:55:29 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The April THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The April issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Globes, Planes, and Principles" by Eldon Tucker "H.P. Blavatsky and the Rays" by Alan E. Donant "Regarding Saint Germain" by L. Gordon Plummer "Online Theosophical Mailing Lists" "Rules of the Mystical Schools" by G. de Purucker "Druidism: The Theosophy of Ancient Wales" Part I, by Kenneth Morris "Questioning Geoffrey Farthing's Manifesto" by Paul Johnson "Theosophists and Buddhism" by G. de Purucker "Awaken!" by Harold Merry "The Experience of the Spiritual" by Eldon Tucker "Are the Masters Active Today?" by L. Gordon Plummer "The Neoplatonic Revival" THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:55:48 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The April THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The April issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Globes, Planes, and Principles" by Eldon Tucker "H.P. Blavatsky and the Rays" by Alan E. Donant "Regarding Saint Germain" by L. Gordon Plummer "Online Theosophical Mailing Lists" "Rules of the Mystical Schools" by G. de Purucker "Druidism: The Theosophy of Ancient Wales" Part I, by Kenneth Morris "Questioning Geoffrey Farthing's Manifesto" by Paul Johnson "Theosophists and Buddhism" by G. de Purucker "Awaken!" by Harold Merry "The Experience of the Spiritual" by Eldon Tucker "Are the Masters Active Today?" by L. Gordon Plummer "The Neoplatonic Revival" THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:23:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: is the TS anti-initiatory? Message-ID: Thoa Tran writes >closer to arhat-hood. > >Thoa :o) Arhat-hoods available for all qualified initiates who have taken our $1000 course are free. Others may obtain them at special rates (poa) and they are available in all regular and especially large sizes. (Note: these should not be worn at night. For night wear contact our UK branch who can supply knighthoods - archaic spelling). Arhats Inc. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:19:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: is the TS anti-initiatory? Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >Using drugs may be a quick way to expand your mind, but it is also >temporary. The slow road up is much longer lasting. The slow road up also >is a builder of the strong connection to the higher mind, its compassion, >its love. Even the "slow road up" is open to misinterpretation and delusion. "Altered states" produced by drugs *may* be educational (in that you can find out what hapens when they are taken) but their propensity for delusion and/or misinterpretation is high. The important thing is what you have called "the connection to the higher mind" - once this is firmly established by practise and repeated experience in the everyday waking state, then the connection can be made (when necessary) at will, without any other aids. My .02 and my experience. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:27:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theos-World ACT Newsletter Message-ID: M K Ramadoss quotes: >>> Access to the members list has been denied us by the Wheaton >administration. The TI membership list is sent to all TI members as a matter of course on signing up. This includes e-mail addresses, and a few snailmail ones. We now have 100 listed members in 17 countries. Members whose list is out of date may obtain an up to date list on request. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:38:10 +0900 From: dport@ozemail.com.au Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1481 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980401103810.006a3aac@ozemail.com.au> thoa wrote >I think that you can get deeply into your spiritual studies and experiences >without using drugs. I heard of a story in which a yogi ingested some >pills and did not experience any effect from it because his consciousness >was already expanded. Of course, meditation is probably the safest method of acquiring inner silence and I would recommend that any user of psychedelics practice meditation regularly. But we are in the Kali Yuga, how many people are we going to get to turn off Friends, Seinfeld and ER and sit down for 20-30 mins a day and meditate? For me personally and a lot of my friends, we would never have encountered esoteric thought if we hadn't had certain psychedelic experiences that caused a wholesale paradigm shift. I would also like to point out the obvious differences between psycheledics, hallucinogens, narcotics and stimulants. The group I am most concerned with is the psychedelics - Amanita Muscaria , Psyilocybin Cubensis, LSD, Peyote, Ayahuasca and DMT (and possibly to a lesser extent Hashish)etc. These drugs have been used in traditional rituals for millenia, they are the original sacrament not some placebo bread and wine. The story about the Yogi - is it the Ram Dass one? - It turned out 25 years later the yogi had not even consumed the acid. I was in Madras and Bangalore last year - Sai Baba consumes inordinate amounts of hashish to enter the state that enables him to manifest physical items. >Using drugs may be a quick way to expand your mind, but it is also >temporary. The slow road up is much longer lasting. The slow road up also >is a builder of the strong connection to the higher mind, its compassion, >its love. I was not talking about spiritual growth but initiation. We accept a lot of the theosophical teachings because they have a resonance with us I suppose, but it is not until you have been 'turned on' that it all falls into place. >I grew up among a generation of drug using peers. People will make up all >sorts of excuses for their usage, from spiritual connection to financial >gain to promoting good feelings. From what I've seen, it's all a cop out. >I did not see any wonderful, compassionate, enlightened beings. Whatever >delusions they were under about themselves, all I saw were selfish people >who had no outside interests beyond their drug gatherings, who could not >make relationship commitments, and who attracted those of their kind. >Spiritual growth? Give me a break! Personal pleasure? Yes! Nothing >beyond that. Try to get people who uses drug daily to go cold turkey. >You'll hear all sorts of excuses. I got away from those people, and, >believe me, my non-drug using friends were much more responsive and kind >people. You don't mention what king of drugs. If they are using everyday then it is probably cannabis or amphetamines or heroin, these drugs do not provide any spiritual growth. Can you also say yourself that you don't consume alcohol, tobacco, chocolate or watch TV? These drugs do more damage to the individual and society in a week than all the acid dropped from it's discovery till now. My non-drug using friends are generally less tolerant, more racist, more egotistical, more materialistic and completely closed to any new ideas. I can't even bring up reincarnation without looks of derision. >An additional thought, my being against drug usage for most people does not >include priests/priestesses in shamanic rites. These are people who have >gone through preparations that enables them to handle and use powerful >hallucinogens for contact with their spiritual nature. I think that most >people in this modern day and age are woefully unprepared. I see several >good-intentioned people go awry with this. As I said, it mostly turned out >to be hedonistic instead of spiritual. Plus, any brief contact with their >spiritual nature did not produce any long term result. I certainly would >not consider them to be anywhere closer to arhat-hood. Education is the key. If the primary goal of our society was spirtiual growth then we would be open to all methods and people would have a greater understanding of the uses of pyschedelics AND meditatiion. The main problem is that drugs like LSD are seen as recreational. I beleive that my body is like a sovereign nation. As ruler of this country I have control of the borders - i decide what goes in and what goes out. If it is my choice to ingest a few hallucingenic mushrooms then I should be free to do so. Every law is a reduction of rights and responsibilities. If we just make a blanket decision to make these drugs illegal on the basis of a few bad experiences by under-prepared travellers we are restricting the rights of the individual. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. I expect a big flame from the Homo Neophobus' on this, but let's just face it if your not turned on then your a robot slave of the military-industrial complex (insert United States of America). Suggested reading for the Homo Neophilus: Food of the Gods, Terrence McKenna Strange Fruit, Clark Heinrich Psychedelic Shamanism, Jim de Korne Alchemy, Johannes Fabricius Namaste' and Hail Eris NOS :p * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:58:40 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980331235840.00965920@mail.eden.com> At 02:11 PM 3/31/1998 -0500, Bart wrote: > I have just read the ACT newsletter. Not surprisingly, I have mixed views on >it (though mostly positive). Before anything else, I would like to point out >that I think it was a mistake to announce the web-site in its current state; as >I mentioned before, the web-site gave a false impression that it was one person >trying to build up a real organization from a fake one. If it had been even >somewhat complete, it would not have done so (for example, notable in its >absence was the list of the ACT Steering Commitee, which DID exist). In the >future, remember that, contrary to popular opinion, content is more important >than format on the Web. Look at Rudolfo Don's page to show that you can have a >well-designed page without a lot of bells and whistles (we will ignore the >controversy about whether or not an individual member can represent the TSA >without the permission of the TSA). > > In any case, as far as the objects go, I have no quarrel with most of them, >but I would like to comment on a few. If I do not make any comment, it can be >assumed that I am in complete agreement with them. Please note that in most of >those principles on which I comment, the disagreement is in detail, not >principle: > >#3) I am in partial agreement with this. Still, there has to be some mechanism >for removing a member from the TSA, especially if they have been removed from a >local Lodge for cause. For example, if someone came into members meetings, and >was physically violent on a regular basis, a Lodge would hav reasonable cause to >rescind the membership, and National should also be able to rescind that >membership as well. I have no problem with making it more difficult to do, >however. > >#4) Bylaw #9 alone does not remove teh autonomy of Lodges. Lodges could be >dissolved by a simple majority of the Board of Directors before then. What Bylaw >#9 did was remove some of the harmful consequences of doing so. I feel that the >PURPORTED purpose of Bylaw #9 (to prevent an outside group from taking over a >Lodge and transferring the property to that group) is a good idea. Therefore, >there are two problems: preserving TS property, while preserving the autonomy of >the individual Lodges. The key, in my opinion, is not on Bylaw 9, but in the >rules for dissolving Lodges. If Bylaw 9 ceased to exist tomorrow, National could >still dissolve a Lodge with a simple majority vote. > >#5) In terms of membership lists, I would prefer a compromise, where individual >members can decide whether or not they wish their information to be distributed. >I would HOPE that the members of ACT would not want personal information about >individual members released without their permission. > >#6) See #5. I like the phrase, "as required by statute". > >#7) I am generally in favor of this, but have no idea of the cost of doing so. >It would probably be a good idea, in terms of future examples, if an estimated >cost could be given, to show that it is not prohibitive. > >#8) There IS a difference between a doctrine, a teaching, and a dogma. Also, for >purely technical reasons, I am in favor of splitting the Quest from the American >Theosophist again. The Quest, I feel, should be general interest, while the >American Theosophist should be TS oriented. > >#9) The E.S. was created to be a separate section of the T.S. It's purpose is >pretty much for those who wish to fully accept T.S. doctrine as correct. While >the E.S. does not publish its hierarchy, the information can be gained by asking >a member. Also available for the asking is what goes on in E.S. meetings. I hope >you don't mean to say that if someone agrees with T.S. doctrine, they should not >be allowed to lead the T.S.! (Note that, having inquired about the E.S. myself, >I have a number of problems with the way it is currently run, and am not and do >not intend to be an E.S. member). > >#10) I STRONGLY agree. I have a major problem with group meditation (invariably, >about 10 minutes into it, I develop a need to cough, and spend the rest of the >"meditation" painfully stifling the cough). In the New York Theosophical >Society, we make an extra effort to avoid making people who do not participate >in the group meditations feel uncomfortable. For example, during the summer, we >have a half-hour members meeting followed by a meditation. Due to >air-conditioning considerations, the meditation is in the same room. To allow >people who do not wish to join in the meditation to leave gracefully, we enforce >a 5 minute break between the end of the meeting and the meditation, where >everybody who is not infirm is asked to get out of their seats. We also go out >of our way to prevent the vegetarians from taking a "more-evolved-than-thou" >attitude towards the non-vegetarians. >--- >Re: Is Olcott a Community as Intended? > > I have not heard any of this from the staff members with whom I have had >close contact. I had been assured that the morning meditation was strictly >voluntary (note that religious freedom is an important issue with me). As far as >Mr. Ohlrich's problem goes, if the job he wanted required presenting information >about the Theosophical Society on the fly, then everything in Dr. Algeo's >alleged statements (except morning meditation) is reasonable. If the information >position was something different, then they are not. > > Note that I wrote a recent article in TS-L (and am going to expand it and >submit it to Quest), where I express my belief that it is a mistake to have the >organizational leaders of the TS also be spiritual leaders, and noted that not >even the Mahatma's were able to find a single person capable of both (though Sri >Ram and John Coates came close). Unlike many here, I think that John Algeo is >honestly trying to do what he thinks is right, but I also think that there is >NOBODY who could take on that level of responsibility without incurring a lot of >bad feeling. >--- > I am looking forward to seeing the slate of officers that ACT will be >putting up for nomination, as well as actual platform. I, unfortunately, will >not be able to attend the Annual Meeting this year, but I believe my wife, >Michele, will be able to attend. > MKR Comment: One of the things that is missing with the current slate of elected officers is their not using of Internet as an effective tool for communication and broadcasting Theosophy. To be charitable, it looks more like either it is due to lack of understanding of the usefulness and the power of Internet or due to they being new to the technology. In today's world of technology, ability to understand and use it is very critical to all organizations. So I would like to see the new slate of candidates to have a good understanding of Internet as well as a sincere commitment to personally use it to communicate and engage discussions with TSA members as well as the public at large. ---------xxx-------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:24:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World ACT Newsletter Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980331232409.00965920@mail.eden.com> At 02:11 PM 3/31/1998 -0500, Bart wrote: >I have just read the ACT newsletter. >>>>>>>>>>clip<<<<<<<<<<<< >#7) I am generally in favor of this, but have no idea of the cost of doing so. >It would probably be a good idea, in terms of future examples, if an estimated >cost could be given, to show that it is not prohibitive. > MKR: To make the issue very clear, I am re-quoting this proposed Goal/Aim of ACT: 7) Work to have an independent firm receive the ballots for election of nationl officers and directors of TSA in the 1999 and subsequent elections and witness the counting of the ballots. [For example: A TSA member who was on the staff at Olcott during 1986 and 1989 elections has recently given a sworn, statement, made available to ACT. This statement raises questions of impropriety in the ballot handling.] MKR: This is issue is a very serious matter. It goes to the heart of the integrity of election process. Even a linger doubt can do serious harm to any organization. So any price is worth paying. As for the cost, there are quite a few options. While it appears that Chicago professional rates are quite high, we can shop around the country. The mechanics of handling it can be dealt with from almost anywhere in the country. So the cost issue should not be a deterrent or an excuse for not implementing it. Also if there is a member of TSA whose firm is willing to do it pro bono, then cost would be a non-issue. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:41:17 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT Newsletter Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980331234117.00965da0@mail.eden.com> At 02:11 PM 3/31/1998 -0500, Bart wrote: >I have just read the ACT newsletter. >#5) In terms of membership lists, I would prefer a compromise, where individual >members can decide whether or not they wish their information to be distributed. >I would HOPE that the members of ACT would not want personal information about >individual members released without their permission. > >#6) See #5. I like the phrase, "as required by statute". > MKR: Let me quote the specific Goal/Aim mentioned above: 5) Work to make available to all members of the TSA detailed financial and membership information by publication at least annually in the official journal of the members. 6) Work to make available to any member of the TSA, all records of the TSA other than personnel records pertaining to any individual employed by the TSA as required by the statute and to permit copying at the expense of the member. MKR Comments: #5) TSA is incorporated as a non-profit corporation under the laws of State of Illinois. The statutes clearly provide for disclosure of the membership information to any member in good standing. The underlying principle is that at the time of elections, those in power who have access to these lists so that they can and do influence the membership as they want to swing the elections while a member in good standing is prevented from presenting his/her side to the membership because there there is no way to know who the members are. What is needed is just complying both in spirit and letter of the statute. #6) Again this suggestion goes to the how open the administration is. There are statutory safeguards to prevent disclosure of information of a personnel nature as well as those of trade secrets and matters under litigation. All other information are statutorialy permissible to be disclosed. Open administration will increase the credibility and can only do a lot of good in the long run. Anyone who is not used to run an organization in a very open manner will find this a cultural shock. But what is good for the TSA should be the guiding principle. ------xxx--------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:33:18 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <3522502E.8C9BF601@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > To be charitable, it looks more like either it is due to lack of > understanding of the usefulness and the power of Internet or due to they > being new to the technology. They aren't using television, either. Bart Lidofsky