From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:44:43 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: request for Spanish Books / courses in theosophy Message-ID: <199803292014.MAA02639@nwc.net> March 29th 1998 Dear Julie Mendel: Your request for information about theosophical literature, courses in Spanish might be met through the following Internet addresses: Theosophy Company, [ Catalog ] 245 W. 33rd St., Los Angeles, Ca., 90007, USA (Phone: (213) 478-7244) also at Email sites: http://www.blavatsky org http://www.tcmnet.com http://www.whidbey.net/theolit http://www.ult.org http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena If you can send your mail address, they will arrange for a catalog of publications in Spanish to be sent to you. Sincerely, W. Dallas TenBroeck 3145 Park Contessa, Calabasas, Ca., 91302, USA Email: dalval@nwc.net ============================================================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:03:24 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: ACT Newsletter Message-ID: <351F198C.47229932@gate.net> Greetings, Anyone wishing a copy of the ACT newsletter may get a copy via snail mail or e-mail by sending me a request. Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:34:21 +0900 From: dport@ozemail.com.au Subject: is the TS anti-initiatory? Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980331103421.00701bcc@ozemail.com.au> The following is a quote from a book review of 'Reign of Quantity and Sign of the Times' by Rene Guenon (contact perennis@taconic.net for info) - '.....furthermore, he found by critically studying spiritualism, theosophy and other movements that now could be seen as 'new age' , these movements were manifestations of the Zeitgeist of the Kali Yuga and hence were false traditions and operated in a counter initiatic manner.' By counter initiatic I presume the author means anti-drugs because that's what initation is really all about. I think it is time the TS came out publically against the War on Drugs and provided information regarding SOMA, initation rituals (eluesinian, bacchian, shamanic etc), LSD & Jungian Depth Psychology etc. Hail Discordia! Hail Eris! The Mighty NOS * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:16:15 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: ACT Newsletter Message-ID: <35207C1E.1B875921@gate.net> Ken Malkin wrote: > Greetings Bart, > > ACT members are openly requesting any TSA members name for our mailing list. > Access to the members list has been denied us by the Wheaton administration. > > Bart my friend, which one of these two posts represents your true thinking? > What can you add, After all, this was your idea from the beginning. Do > something you urged. We are trying to do something. I look forward to > getting your membership added to the several a day that are coming in. > > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > Ken Malkin wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > Anyone wishing a copy of the ACT newsletter may get a copy via snail > > > mail or e-mail by sending me a request. > > > > Bart wrote > > > Ken: From people in the NYTS who got the newsletter (how did you get > > the mailing list, anyway? We couldn't figure it out by who got or didn't > > get the newsletter), > > Ken wroteA NY member with a decidedly democratic nature was contacted and > assisted to the degree that could be mustered. Would you be kind enough to > request of your membership their inclusion in the ACT newsletter? Either > snail mail or e-mail will be accommodated. > > Bart wrote > I have gotten some very good feedback. Based on that, I am willing to > say:Ken wrote > Thanks Bart, many people across the entire country gave of themselves to > make the ACT Newsletter work. It is unfortunate that only 20 odd names were > able to fit on the masthead. > > > 1) It looks like I misjudged ACT based on what was put and not put > > on the web page. > > > > 2) I would appreciate if you emailed me a copy. If the message is > > half as positive as people have said, then I think you have a good > > organization there. > > > > Tch, Tch, your name was the third on the list. I am surprised you did not > get a copy. I labeled yours myself. I will send you one for what ever reason > you wish, but look again, I feel confident you have gotten it. > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > > > Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:06:14 -0500 > From: Bart Lidofsky > To: theos-l@vnet.net > Subject: ACT: How concerned ARE they? > Message-ID: <351DD6C5.D6BFA1B1@sprynet.com> > > I got a bit of news today which has soured me somewhat on ACT. I was > sufficiently concerned about the proposed bylaw changes that I wrote to > Wheaton adding my voice to what I assumed were the dozens of other > voices protesting the changes. Much to my surprise, > > I was the ONLYperson who bothered to complain to Wheaton. The so-called > ConcernedTheosophists were so "more-evolved-than-thou" certain of the > selfish and evil intent at Wheaton that none of them even bothered to tell > Wheaton > about the problem. > > Ken wrote > You have been taken in by Wheaton once again. If you wish, I will supply the > requests justifying the by-law changes and to date, NOT ONE has been > acknowledged. You may wish to check your source Bart. > > Bart wrote > Well, the information I received was that it was an error on the part of the > lawyers who wrote up the new wording, and there probably is still time to > fix it before the ballots go out. If the Concerned Theosophists had informed > Wheaton earlier, then there would have been more time to fix the problem. > And what harm would have been done in simply asking about the change? > > And, by the way, did those of you who claim that you cannot get a > copy of the National bylaws bother to call the numbers listed on page 10 > of the March, 1998 Quest? > Ken wrote > Several requests have been made to no avail. I for one am still waiting for > a reply to three e-mails. > > Bart wrote > (I am not posting the numbers here, since they > are clearly only for use by TSA members, and this list goes to a lot of > non-TSA members). > > Bart > If you don't like what the leadership of the TSA is doing, it is not > > Ken, > Geez louuuuuisssee Bart, don't you get it, the present administration DOES > NOT GIVE A HOOT ABOUT ANY MEMBER other than those they can scare, bully or > who just haven't taken the time to ask. Does it make sense that all this > Bull s--- is going on if there is not big problem with the current > Administration? Think buddy, think, and think again. Please Bart, support > the white hats. At least request information and then decide. I've been > offering you chapter and verse about the Wheatonists for two years. Take a > chance, every paradigm can be realigned. > > Bart wrote > enough to try to change the leadership. Let the current leadership know > of your problems. Who knows? They may just decide to agree with you. > > Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:58:16 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: is the TS anti-initiatory? Message-ID: I think that you can get deeply into your spiritual studies and experiences without using drugs. I heard of a story in which a yogi ingested some pills and did not experience any effect from it because his consciousness was already expanded. Using drugs may be a quick way to expand your mind, but it is also temporary. The slow road up is much longer lasting. The slow road up also is a builder of the strong connection to the higher mind, its compassion, its love. I grew up among a generation of drug using peers. People will make up all sorts of excuses for their usage, from spiritual connection to financial gain to promoting good feelings. From what I've seen, it's all a cop out. I did not see any wonderful, compassionate, enlightened beings. Whatever delusions they were under about themselves, all I saw were selfish people who had no outside interests beyond their drug gatherings, who could not make relationship commitments, and who attracted those of their kind. Spiritual growth? Give me a break! Personal pleasure? Yes! Nothing beyond that. Try to get people who uses drug daily to go cold turkey. You'll hear all sorts of excuses. I got away from those people, and, believe me, my non-drug using friends were much more responsive and kind people. Thoa :o) >The following is a quote from a book review of 'Reign of Quantity and Sign >of the Times' by Rene Guenon (contact perennis@taconic.net for info) - > >'.....furthermore, he found by critically studying spiritualism, theosophy >and other movements that now could be seen as 'new age' , these movements >were manifestations of the Zeitgeist of the Kali Yuga and hence were false >traditions and operated in a counter initiatic manner.' > >By counter initiatic I presume the author means anti-drugs because that's >what initation is really all about. I think it is time the TS came out >publically against the War on Drugs and provided information regarding >SOMA, initation rituals (eluesinian, bacchian, shamanic etc), LSD & Jungian >Depth Psychology etc. > >Hail Discordia! Hail Eris! > >The Mighty NOS > > > > >* Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: >http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or,* Send me >E-mail Express directly to my computer screen >2678258@pager.mirabilis.comFor downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/For >adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: >http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:11:52 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: is the TS anti-initiatory? Message-ID: An additional thought, my being against drug usage for most people does not include priests/priestesses in shamanic rites. These are people who have gone through preparations that enables them to handle and use powerful hallucinogens for contact with their spiritual nature. I think that most people in this modern day and age are woefully unprepared. I see several good-intentioned people go awry with this. As I said, it mostly turned out to be hedonistic instead of spiritual. Plus, any brief contact with their spiritual nature did not produce any long term result. I certainly would not consider them to be anywhere closer to arhat-hood. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:27:24 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World ACT Newsletter Message-ID: <3521358C.E6D89857@sprynet.com> I have just read the ACT newsletter. Not surprisingly, I have mixed views on it (though mostly positive). Before anything else, I would like to point out that I think it was a mistake to announce the web-site in its current state; as I mentioned before, the web-site gave a false impression that it was one person trying to build up a real organization from a fake one. If it had been even somewhat complete, it would not have done so (for example, notable in its absence was the list of the ACT Steering Commitee, which DID exist). In the future, remember that, contrary to popular opinion, content is more important than format on the Web. Look at Rudolfo Don's page to show that you can have a well-designed page without a lot of bells and whistles (we will ignore the controversy about whether or not an individual member can represent the TSA without the permission of the TSA). In any case, as far as the objects go, I have no quarrel with most of them, but I would like to comment on a few. If I do not make any comment, it can be assumed that I am in complete agreement with them. Please note that in most of those principles on which I comment, the disagreement is in detail, not principle: #3) I am in partial agreement with this. Still, there has to be some mechanism for removing a member from the TSA, especially if they have been removed from a local Lodge for cause. For example, if someone came into members meetings, and was physically violent on a regular basis, a Lodge would hav reasonable cause to rescind the membership, and National should also be able to rescind that membership as well. I have no problem with making it more difficult to do, however. #4) Bylaw #9 alone does not remove teh autonomy of Lodges. Lodges could be dissolved by a simple majority of the Board of Directors before then. What Bylaw #9 did was remove some of the harmful consequences of doing so. I feel that the PURPORTED purpose of Bylaw #9 (to prevent an outside group from taking over a Lodge and transferring the property to that group) is a good idea. Therefore, there are two problems: preserving TS property, while preserving the autonomy of the individual Lodges. The key, in my opinion, is not on Bylaw 9, but in the rules for dissolving Lodges. If Bylaw 9 ceased to exist tomorrow, National could still dissolve a Lodge with a simple majority vote. #5) In terms of membership lists, I would prefer a compromise, where individual members can decide whether or not they wish their information to be distributed. I would HOPE that the members of ACT would not want personal information about individual members released without their permission. #6) See #5. I like the phrase, "as required by statute". #7) I am generally in favor of this, but have no idea of the cost of doing so. It would probably be a good idea, in terms of future examples, if an estimated cost could be given, to show that it is not prohibitive. #8) There IS a difference between a doctrine, a teaching, and a dogma. Also, for purely technical reasons, I am in favor of splitting the Quest from the American Theosophist again. The Quest, I feel, should be general interest, while the American Theosophist should be TS oriented. #9) The E.S. was created to be a separate section of the T.S. It's purpose is pretty much for those who wish to fully accept T.S. doctrine as correct. While the E.S. does not publish its hierarchy, the information can be gained by asking a member. Also available for the asking is what goes on in E.S. meetings. I hope you don't mean to say that if someone agrees with T.S. doctrine, they should not be allowed to lead the T.S.! (Note that, having inquired about the E.S. myself, I have a number of problems with the way it is currently run, and am not and do not intend to be an E.S. member). #10) I STRONGLY agree. I have a major problem with group meditation (invariably, about 10 minutes into it, I develop a need to cough, and spend the rest of the "meditation" painfully stifling the cough). In the New York Theosophical Society, we make an extra effort to avoid making people who do not participate in the group meditations feel uncomfortable. For example, during the summer, we have a half-hour members meeting followed by a meditation. Due to air-conditioning considerations, the meditation is in the same room. To allow people who do not wish to join in the meditation to leave gracefully, we enforce a 5 minute break between the end of the meeting and the meditation, where everybody who is not infirm is asked to get out of their seats. We also go out of our way to prevent the vegetarians from taking a "more-evolved-than-thou" attitude towards the non-vegetarians. --- Re: Is Olcott a Community as Intended? I have not heard any of this from the staff members with whom I have had close contact. I had been assured that the morning meditation was strictly voluntary (note that religious freedom is an important issue with me). As far as Mr. Ohlrich's problem goes, if the job he wanted required presenting information about the Theosophical Society on the fly, then everything in Dr. Algeo's alleged statements (except morning meditation) is reasonable. If the information position was something different, then they are not. Note that I wrote a recent article in TS-L (and am going to expand it and submit it to Quest), where I express my belief that it is a mistake to have the organizational leaders of the TS also be spiritual leaders, and noted that not even the Mahatma's were able to find a single person capable of both (though Sri Ram and John Coates came close). Unlike many here, I think that John Algeo is honestly trying to do what he thinks is right, but I also think that there is NOBODY who could take on that level of responsibility without incurring a lot of bad feeling. --- I am looking forward to seeing the slate of officers that ACT will be putting up for nomination, as well as actual platform. I, unfortunately, will not be able to attend the Annual Meeting this year, but I believe my wife, Michele, will be able to attend. I will start subscribing to ACT-L, so that non-TSA people in these lists won't be bored by ongoing political conversation. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:41:46 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World ACT Newsletter Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980331124146.007a2600@mail.eden.com> Recently there was litigation going on in Chicago in a non profit operation where during elections those in power refused to let the membership list to other candidates. I have not kept up with it. May be one of these days a landmark court case will open up the list, just like other court decisions have done to very many other issues of public interest and public welfare. mkr At 12:26 PM 3/31/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Ken Malkin wrote: > >> ACT members are openly requesting any TSA members name for our mailing list. >> Access to the members list has been denied us by the Wheaton administration. >Bart: > I am aware of this; they have a policy of not giving out members' names. I >have run into this when running a program (similar to yours in Miami, and No wonder with such antiquated philosophy, it does not help TSA. TSA is losing members every year with no end in sight. Last year it lost 200 members. At the rate of 200 members per year, in 20 years the number of members will be zero unless something drastic happens which may turn things around or hasten the process of loss of membership. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:36:04 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: International Cooperation on Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980328163604.0095d100@mail.eden.com> Here is an example of International cooperation. I am subscribed to a computer mail list located at Austin, Texas. When the list server went down, one of the subscribers in Japan jumped in and set up a temporary server in Japan so that the maillist traffic is not interrupted. All this is for free at no cost to the subscribers. When one is very conscious about *cost* and looking for ways to recoup the cost, it is very commendable. mkr >Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 03:14:44 +0900 >From: "Yoshi hiro Kaneiso" >Subject: Temporal AltCPU-List is Open. All the members of altcpu-list, As the majordomo.com's mail server or its line is down, I had set up an alternative mailing list for the altcpu-list on my server for temporal purposes. As this list is served with by 128K BPS line and it's located in Japan, you may find its response is not fast enough, however, I thought its less unsatisfactory than nothing. This temporal list was created based on information as of Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:34:36 -0700 (MST) provided by John Schexnayder, the official version altcpu-list owner, however, as the member import was done by hand, there might be some faults. If you find something wrong, please let me know. To No-mail recipients and Digest version recipients: Please note as there was not enough time on me, all the "digest" and "nomail" settings were not transferred. You will receive by-post messages until those settings are transferred. Please be patient for some while. Please feel free to ask me about this temporal mailing list. John S., Phil, Ian, John C. and TheDark, the message I sent you last time was wrong because the altcpu-list at that time contained a faulty setup that made it unable to deliver mails to the members. Regards, -hiro ykaneiso@linked.or.jp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:36:32 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: ACTivist Message-ID: I may have missed the information in my quick skimming of the e-mails. How do I get an ACTivist newsletter? Thanks. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:20:47 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: ACTivist Newsletter Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980328192047.00846de0@mail.eden.com> It has been mailed many TSA members. The quickest way is for me to photocopy my copy and mail it to you. Let me know your mailing address. As soon as the WWW of ACT is up and running, hopefully inthe next few days, you can access at the website. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:42:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: The ACTivist available in PDF file Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980328224252.01038b10@mail.eden.com> I have a copy of the first issue of ACTivist, the Official Newsletter of the Association of Concerned Theosophists, in PDF format (which is 900K in size.) This would be primarily of interest to the present and past members of Theosophical Society of America. Others around the world also may be interested. It may be available at the ACT website when it is up and running, which is expected to be very soon. In the meanwhile, if anyone is interested, I can e-mail it if you let me know. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 00:06:14 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: ACT: How concerned ARE they? Message-ID: <351DD6C5.D6BFA1B1@sprynet.com> I got a bit of news today which has soured me somewhat on ACT. I was sufficiently concerned about the proposed bylaw changes that I wrote to Wheaton adding my voice to what I assumed were the dozens of other voices protesting the changes. Much to my surprise, I was the ONLY person who bothered to complain to Wheaton. The so-called Concerned Theosophists were so "more-evolved-than-thou" certain of the selfish and evil intent at Wheaton that none of them even bothered to tell Wheaton about the problem. Well, the information I received was that it was an error on the part of the lawyers who wrote up the new wording, and there probably is still time to fix it before the ballots go out. If the Concerned Theosophists had informed Wheaton earlier, then there would have been more time to fix the problem. And what harm would have been done in simply asking about the change? And, by the way, did those of you who claim that you cannot get a copy of the National bylaws bother to call the numbers listed on page 10 of the March, 1998 Quest? (I am not posting the numbers here, since they are clearly only for use by TSA members, and this list goes to a lot of non-TSA members). If you don't like what the leadership of the TSA is doing, it is not enough to try to change the leadership. Let the current leadership know of your problems. Who knows? They may just decide to agree with you. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 23:34:03 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT: How concerned ARE they? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980328233403.014a9650@mail.eden.com> At 12:17 AM 3/29/1998 -0500, you wrote: And, by the way, did those of you who claim that you cannot get a >copy of the National bylaws bother to call the numbers listed on page 10 >of the March, 1998 Quest? (I am not posting the numbers here, since they >are clearly only for use by TSA members, and this list goes to a lot of >non-TSA members). > > Bart Lidofsky As soon as the Quest was received I e-mailed a request for by-laws and did receive it by e-mail the same day. The story with the Bylaws of Theosophical Investment Trust is a totally different story. Couple of years ago I wrote to the National President requesting a copy. Still waiting to receive a copy. Still wondering why it is taking soooooo long? May we can expect a response in the next Manvantara!!!! mkr PS: Master KH in his 1900 letter warned that unnecessary secrecy has killed many organizations in the past. He should have seen what is coming down the pike almost 100 years ago. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:12:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TSA BOD - How concerned are they? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980329091224.00ab1d20@mail.eden.com> At 12:17 AM 3/29/1998 -0500, you wrote: > I got a bit of news today which has soured me somewhat on ACT. I was >sufficiently concerned about the proposed bylaw changes that I wrote to >Wheaton adding my voice to what I assumed were the dozens of other >voices protesting the changes. Much to my surprise, I was the ONLY >person who bothered to complain to Wheaton. I thank you for taking the trouble to follow up with Wheaton. As I have stated a number of time, effort of a single individual can move mountains and all the good Karma goes to you. > Well, the information I received was that it was an error on the >part of the lawyers who wrote up the new wording, and there probably is >still time to fix it before the ballots go out. It is amazing to find the lawyers being blamed for the error. Since it is used in plural, how many lawyers? A dozen or more? Too many cooks spoiling the broth? Are these paid specialists in non profit tax exempt law or unpaid volunteers with no non profit exempt law expertise? If paid lawyers, Chicago lawyers are not cheap, how many thousands of dollars have been spent on them? However, a more fundamental question is what were the members of the Board of Directors doing when the changes were drafted? What about all the management staff at Wheaton? Did anyone read and comment and catch the error? Were they sleeping at the wheel? Or are the Directors and staff who may have noticed the error are too scared of being *marginalized* kept silent. (The staff may lose their jobs, members of Board may be afraid of losing the previleges they enjoy.) More than any one, I would fault the members of the Board of Directors since they *are* the ones who are supposed to take care of the interests of centers/lodges/branches and should have gone thru the changes with a tooth comb and see if there are any issues that need to be resolved. What depth of discussions that ever took place in the Board before finalizing the changes? All these are legitimate questions. Any answers anyone knows? mkr If the Concerned >Theosophists had informed Wheaton earlier, then there would have been >more time to fix the problem. And what harm would have been done in >simply asking about the change? > > And, by the way, did those of you who claim that you cannot get a >copy of the National bylaws bother to call the numbers listed on page 10 >of the March, 1998 Quest? (I am not posting the numbers here, since they >are clearly only for use by TSA members, and this list goes to a lot of >non-TSA members). > > If you don't like what the leadership of the TSA is doing, it is not >enough to try to change the leadership. Let the current leadership know >of your problems. Who knows? They may just decide to agree with you. > > Bart Lidofsky > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:43:06 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: TSA BOD - How concerned are they? Message-ID: <351E7A1A.E66FAC4A@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > It is amazing to find the lawyers being blamed for the error. Since it is > used in plural, how many lawyers? A dozen or more? Too many cooks spoiling > the broth? Are these paid specialists in non profit tax exempt law or > unpaid volunteers with no non profit exempt law expertise? If paid lawyers, > Chicago lawyers are not cheap, how many thousands of dollars have been > spent on them? You may note that I did not mention the exact source of the information, either. Feel free to do the research yourself, but I still have a policy of not quoting anything which is not a matter of public record on an Internet newsgroup or maillist. In any case, what I believe to be the case based on what I was told was that there were some potential legal problems based on the current wording, that at least one qualified expert was asked to reword it, and apparently nobody noticed the missing phraseology until it was made public. Please note the following story: In New York City, there is a tramway going from Manhattan to Roosevelt Island (my wife calls it a sardine can held by a paper clip to a string). When they first built it, they took everything into account: the strength of the cable, the weight of the tram, the level of sag of the cable, etc. Yet, on it's first trip out, it knocked over a lamp post. It seems that one little factor was not calculated into the sag estimates: The weight of the passengers. People DO make mistakes, even ones which are obvious in hindsight. > error? Were they sleeping at the wheel? Or are the Directors and staff who > may have noticed the error are too scared of being *marginalized* kept > silent. (The staff may lose their jobs, members of Board may be afraid of > losing the previleges they enjoy.) Sigh. I am certain, at least, that Fernando de Torrijos (the Northeast's representative, and the only one I really know) would have spoken up if he noticed it. And as far as the staff losing their jobs, do you have any idea what a pittance the staff members are paid? Let me put it this way: If I wanted to become a staff member at Wheaton, I would make more money as an unpaid volunteer than I would as a paid staff member. > More than any one, I would fault the members of the Board of Directors > since they *are* the ones who are supposed to take care of the interests of > centers/lodges/branches and should have gone thru the changes with a tooth > comb and see if there are any issues that need to be resolved. What depth > of discussions that ever took place in the Board before finalizing the > changes? I don't know. If my own judgement of their character is correct, however, I expect them to take full responsibilty. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:52:48 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TSA BOD - How concerned are they? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980329175248.006cefb4@mail.eden.com> At 11:51 AM 3/29/98 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> It is amazing to find the lawyers being blamed for the error. Since it is >> used in plural, how many lawyers? A dozen or more? Too many cooks spoiling >> the broth? Are these paid specialists in non profit tax exempt law or >> unpaid volunteers with no non profit exempt law expertise? If paid lawyers, >> Chicago lawyers are not cheap, how many thousands of dollars have been >> spent on them? > > You may note that I did not mention the exact source of the information, >either. Feel free to do the research yourself, but I still have a policy of not >quoting anything which is not a matter of public record on an Internet >newsgroup or maillist. In any case, what I believe to be the case based on what >I was told was that there were some potential legal problems based on the >current wording, that at least one qualified expert was asked to reword it, and >apparently nobody noticed the missing phraseology until it was made public. No problem. Again I do appreciate your taking time to contact and post the info you have posted. I am not expecting you to do any research. After all with the multi-million dollars in the TIT accounts TSA can afford to hire the best legal talent in Chicago and pay for it. > People DO make mistakes, even ones which are obvious in hindsight. > Agreed. But when you pay for good legal talent, assuming the lawyers were paid for the advise, you do expect them to do it right first time. Couple of years ago there was a Million dollar error (loss) in the TIT accounts. When I first pointed out, I got an explanation from the Administration how the stock market fluctuation was responsible. Then when I questioned why it was not highlighted in the audited report, as any million dollar loss should have been, the error was discovered. This was in spite of all the in-house expertise and the external paid CPA firm auditing the accounts. CPA firm audits don't come cheap and I am sure TSA pays thousands of dollars to the CPA firm each year to do their job. >> error? Were they sleeping at the wheel? Or are the Directors and staff who >> may have noticed the error are too scared of being *marginalized* kept >> silent. (The staff may lose their jobs, members of Board may be afraid of >> losing the previleges they enjoy.) > > Sigh. I am certain, at least, that Fernando de Torrijos (the Northeast's >representative, and the only one I really know) would have spoken up if he >noticed it. And as far as the staff losing their jobs, do you have any idea >what a pittance the staff members are paid? Let me put it this way: If I wanted >to become a staff member at Wheaton, I would make more money as an unpaid >volunteer than I would as a paid staff member. > I need to clarify here. I am not talking about the rank and file staff who are doing an outstanding job and in very difficult circumstances and everyone should be very grateful for their sacrifices. I was specifically referring in my criticism those staff in the management positions at Wheaton. I do not know how much the top management positions are paid. It would be very interesting to find out if TSA is willing to release the information. Nothing need to be secret. If the membership finds out about the pittance, may be there will be a move to improve the wages paid to the staff. Quite some years ago, I suggested that the details of the top 5 paid people at Wheaton be made public. Initially some members of the Board showed enthusiasm. But nothing was heard about it since then. This proposal is in line with the public disclosure of top paid people in publically held companies. Years ago, when a well known member who had outstanding professional background wanted to work fulltime for TS, the then International President advised this member to go out and make some money and save some money and come back to work for free. Financial independence goes a long way in helping people who want to work for Theosophy. So I am not insensitive to the plight of compensation at Wheaton. >> More than any one, I would fault the members of the Board of Directors >> since they *are* the ones who are supposed to take care of the interests of >> centers/lodges/branches and should have gone thru the changes with a tooth >> comb and see if there are any issues that need to be resolved. What depth >> of discussions that ever took place in the Board before finalizing the >> changes? > > I don't know. If my own judgement of their character is correct, however, I >expect them to take full responsibilty. Bart Lidofsky What I was expecting was: are they doing the job they are expected to do. If they cannot or unable they should step aside and look for people who can. Taking responsibility does not solve problems. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:42:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: The ACTivist available in PDF file Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980328224252.01038b10@mail.eden.com> I have a copy of the first issue of ACTivist, the Official Newsletter of the Association of Concerned Theosophists, in PDF format (which is 900K in size.) This would be primarily of interest to the present and past members of Theosophical Society of America. Others around the world also may be interested. It may be available at the ACT website when it is up and running, which is expected to be very soon. In the meanwhile, if anyone is interested, I can e-mail it if you let me know. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:33:06 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980327143306.0094d320@mail.eden.com> Dear Bart: I happened to see your statement on ACT on ts-l. Would you want to post it here? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:55:22 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: ACT-L -- Ask the many members of ACT Message-ID: <01IV602BPFSK95N9DI@InfoAve.Net> hi - Since many members of the TSA have already received their first issue of the ACTivist, I thought it wise to post some info about ACT-L. ACT-L is a discussion list created for anyone who wishes to find out more about The Association of Concerned Theosophists (ACT). This discussion list is not moderated and is open to anyone. However, please note that ACT-L is mostly concerned with current issues and problems within The Theosophical Society in America (TSA). To subscribe, send an email message (leave the Subject blank/empty if possible) to listserv@vnet.net containing the single line Subscribe ACT-L Fristname Lastname The many members of ACT will be happy to answer any concerns, issues, or questions you have. Also, the subscriber list is hidden in case some people wish to remain unknown due to the sensitive nature of the discussions. peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:26:17 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Charging for info on Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980327222617.006af2cc@mail.eden.com> In San Antonio which is the seventh largest city in the US there is just one daily newspaper. It started an on line version of the paper which can be accessed for a fee. This has been in operation almost a year. This week, the newspaper abandoned the policy of charging for the online version since they found out that it is very difficult to enroll paying subscribers. I have seen many leading newspapers and magazines on line for free. Even Associated Press is available for fee on Internet. It looks like if anyone is trying to sell news and similar publication on line for a fee, it is going to be very very difficult sell. I personally think it is great that all this info is available without our having to shell out hard earned money. Let the advertisers pay for all the costs. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 03:23:31 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Info in Spanish Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- I want to know if you have spanish courses or books and how to contact with other countries like South America. Julie A Mendel Via Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:04:27 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <351C68BB.F6D0E0DF@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > Dear Bart: > > I happened to see your statement on ACT on ts-l. Would you want to post it > here? Not yet. I was pleased (but not surprised) to see that it went through, and I want to see the feedback on that list. Perhaps if Eldon asks me to put a more article-type version on theos-world, I would agree. Actually, I was planning to write it BEFORE I saw the ACT home page; I corresponded privately with a couple of people on this list for advice before it reached its final form. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:04:25 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980327230425.011748a0@mail.eden.com> At 10:08 PM 3/27/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> Dear Bart: >> >> I happened to see your statement on ACT on ts-l. Would you want to post it >> here? > > Not yet. I was pleased (but not surprised) to see that it went through, >and I want to see the feedback on that list. Perhaps if Eldon asks me to put a >more article-type version on theos-world, I would agree. Actually, I was >planning to write it BEFORE I saw the ACT home page; I corresponded privately >with a couple of people on this list for advice before it reached its final >form. > > Bart Lidofsky > Thanks. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:02:23 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980328000223.009dabc0@mail.eden.com> I received the ACTivist Newsletter today. I am very glad to see a lot of members taking interest in the future of TSA. As we are approaching the next Millennium, I am yet to see both at the International as well as the National level any long term mission/vision articulated. Once the vision/mission is articulated then only it is possible to develop programs and strategies at all levels -- down to the individual so that all the creative ideas and energies of everyone can contribute to work towards the vision/mission. What is most productive is the intelligent and enthusiastic cooperation of everybody to achieve the vision/mission. What we see is the secrecy shrouding the issues, the thinking and the plans at the top. A glaring example is seen in the most recent issue of Quest. There is an article on the visit of the National President to Adyar last December. While there are a lot of trivial details (which have nothing to do about either the present or the future of the TS/TSA) about his visit, all that was mentioned about the all day meeting of the General Council was just a casual mention and nothing else. General Council is the top Council at the International level where all the National Presidents(Secretaries) are represented and which deals with major policy issues. Today's intelligent, enthusiastic and interested membership expect to be taken into full confidence and be informed of the policy issues and problems facing the TS as it enters the next millennium and the general thinking about how to address them. An open and free top down and bottom up communication cannot but help TS and TSA. Secrecy and membership being treated like "mushrooms" (kept in the dark) may have been ok in the days of Initiate Kings but not in today's democratic form of organization which TS is supposed to be. This is all the more important as we see the continuous downward trend of the membership with no light at the end of the tunnel. I am very hopeful that with the increased interest of large numbe of Concerned Theosophists, we can move TSA forward with Godspeed to a more open and less secret administration as we embark upon the next millennium. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:55:22 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: ACT-L -- Ask the many members of ACT Message-ID: <01IV602BPFSK95N9DI@InfoAve.Net> hi - Since many members of the TSA have already received their first issue of the ACTivist, I thought it wise to post some info about ACT-L. ACT-L is a discussion list created for anyone who wishes to find out more about The Association of Concerned Theosophists (ACT). This discussion list is not moderated and is open to anyone. However, please note that ACT-L is mostly concerned with current issues and problems within The Theosophical Society in America (TSA). To subscribe, send an email message (leave the Subject blank/empty if possible) to listserv@vnet.net containing the single line Subscribe ACT-L Fristname Lastname The many members of ACT will be happy to answer any concerns, issues, or questions you have. Also, the subscriber list is hidden in case some people wish to remain unknown due to the sensitive nature of the discussions. peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:31:23 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ACTivist Message-ID: <351AAD0B.113E375E@sprynet.com> John R. Crocker wrote: > How about the *current* slate of proposed bylaw changes. They are presented > as changes of wording rather than "substance". I showed them to two > attorneys I use for the non-profits I work for ... saying they are not > "substantive" is more than just a slight distortion, its an outright lie. > They are *significantly* substantive, *major* changes - the Wheaton Board of > Directors will, at will, be able to dissolve any Lodge, sieze all of its > assets, and will not even be constrained to use them in the area in which > they were raised.-JRC My wife reads our copy of Quest, and then files it away somewhere so I don't get to see it (or even find out it has arrived). In what issue are these bylaw changes given? The New York Lodge's bylaws VERY specifically state that assetts have to remain in New York if the Lodge is dissolved. Also, you may recall that I have been lobbying to make it harder for National to dissolve a Lodge; if they have made it easier, then I will protest most vigorously. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:13:04 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: ACTivist Message-ID: <199803262015.NAA21528@selway.umt.edu> > My wife reads our copy of Quest, and then files it away somewhere so I >don't get to see it (or even find out it has arrived). In what issue are these >bylaw changes given? The New York Lodge's bylaws VERY specifically state that >assetts have to remain in New York if the Lodge is dissolved. Also, you may >recall that I have been lobbying to make it harder for National to dissolve a >Lodge; if they have made it easier, then I will protest most vigorously. > Bart Lidofsky Its in the latest Quest (I just got it a week or two ago). Read it *carefully* (especially if you are part of a Lodge with significant assets). The bylaw would require you to *insert* language into your own bylaws. National has always had the power to form or dissolve Lodges, but this will give them unquestioned control of assets (assets that in most cases *they* didn't raise). (I am aware that you have looked deeply into the legalities surrounding Lodge property & ownership ... I suspect we may well agree about the potential ramifications of the proposed bylaws (-:). -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:21:53 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <199803262023.NAA00449@selway.umt.edu> >> Sorry ... but it *is* a larger organization. Interesting that you would >> simply assume that it is an individual and then even accuse the individual >> of wanting to be a "dictator". > > I didn't. The direct quote, cut and pasted from your post, is: " The "Concerned Theosophist"'s plan seems to consist of HIM becoming the dictator of what is or is not Theosophical, rather than someone else." > Sounds good to me. Let's hope that the American Theosophist keeps up its old >practice of allowing the candidates space to state their positions, as well. I hope so too ... but ACT is making sure that the wide dissemination of a range of information, opinions, and positions is no longer dependent upon "one individual" at Wheaton. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:11:49 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ACTivist Message-ID: <351AD2A4.496D624@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > > My wife reads our copy of Quest, and then files it away somewhere so > I > >don't get to see it (or even find out it has arrived). In what issue are > these > >bylaw changes given? The New York Lodge's bylaws VERY specifically state > that > >assetts have to remain in New York if the Lodge is dissolved. Also, you may > >recall that I have been lobbying to make it harder for National to dissolve > a > >Lodge; if they have made it easier, then I will protest most vigorously. > > Bart Lidofsky > > Its in the latest Quest (I just got it a week or two ago). Read it > *carefully* (especially if you are part of a Lodge with significant assets). > The bylaw would require you to *insert* language into your own bylaws. > National has always had the power to form or dissolve Lodges, but this will > give them unquestioned control of assets (assets that in most cases *they* > didn't raise). (I am aware that you have looked deeply into the legalities > surrounding Lodge property & ownership ... I suspect we may well agree about > the potential ramifications of the proposed bylaws (-:). -JRC Yes, we do; this is EXTREMELY serious. While I see no new langauge making it easier to dissolve a Lodge, it is clear that the language about requiring the assets to be used locally has been removed. New York is having a Board meeting tonight, and I will also see to it that John Sellon (the primary donor to our Lodge) is also informed, in case he has not been. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:13:51 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <351AD31E.BCD7311@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > >> Sorry ... but it *is* a larger organization. Interesting that you would > >> simply assume that it is an individual and then even accuse the > individual > >> of wanting to be a "dictator". > > > > I didn't. > > The direct quote, cut and pasted from your post, is: > " The "Concerned Theosophist"'s plan seems to consist > of HIM becoming the dictator of what is or is not Theosophical, rather than > someone else." That's what I get for doing my email at 1:30 AM. You are right, and I am wrong. And I was wrong to use language that strong, even if I was correct about it being one person. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 23:51:01 +0000 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <199803270656.XAA10977@selway.umt.edu> > That's what I get for doing my email at 1:30 AM. You are right, and I am >wrong. And I was wrong to use language that strong, even if I was correct about >it being one person. > Bart Lidofsky Dead wrong about that too. The site was a draft ... three different people contributed parts of the individual pieces, and all of them had comments from several others already integrated into them. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:58:19 EST From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1476 Message-ID: Murry, I agree that it is not always easy or even possible to guard against "intensity burnout". Sometimes, it's just going to happen and one handles the consequences the best one can. It is comforting to share this with you and Thoa. Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:08:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet and Catholic Bishops & Cardinals Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980327090836.00f3c5c0@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting report. Catholics to Promote Cyber Morality By Sandy Shore AP Business Writer Thursday, March 26, 1998; 9:17 p.m. EST DENVER (AP) -- The head of the nation's largest cable television company introduced Catholic bishops and cardinals to virtual voyeurism Thursday as he asked them to help instill morality into cyberspace. As the clergy listened attentively, Leo Hindery described an Internet site that allows computer users to watch Jenni, a 21-year-old woman, as she dresses, sleeps or has sex. He said 500,000 visitors look at the site daily. ``It may sound pathetic, but people actually relate to Jenni; they feel they know her personally, so much so that men worldwide regard Jenni as their virtual girlfriend,'' said Hindery, president of Tele-Communications Inc. Although the Internet is a useful tool, Hindery said, it probably presents ``one of the greatest threats to morality and decency that we face today.'' He asked the Catholic leaders to use the Internet as an ``electronic pew'' to teach morality and family values. Hindery addressed about 200 people attending a Catholic conference on new technologies in the Denver Public Library. The session, which concludes Sunday, has drawn seven cardinals and about 50 bishops from 15 nations who are discussing the opportunities and ethical implications of the information age. One seminar is devoted to teaching the clergy an electronic vocabulary, while others address computers, software and the Internet. Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver said Hindery's points emphasized the need for Catholics to become familiar with high-tech tools. ``In some ways, that's the reason for this conference so we might discover the new ways of speaking to the people who know computers and things, who live in a new world,'' he said. The Jenni site ``represents the worst of who we are. I have a great sadness not only for her, but for those who go to the site because it shows there is something missing from their lives,'' he said. Raised by Jesuits, Hindery told the Catholics he is troubled by changes in the world that have given rise to youth violence and caused a deterioration in family values. ``Just as I question the news judgment that prevails in this country today, I confess to serious personal misgivings about some of the stuff being put on television and out on the Internet,'' he said. Hindery cited fantasy games and chat rooms that cater to lonely people as Internet sites that demonstrate a need for the clergy to reinforce a relationship with parishioners. Hindery recommended the Catholics become familiar with the Internet and use e-mail, Web sites and other methods to reach a ``virtual congregation.'' ``The Internet can be stunningly, stunningly immoral,'' he said. ``It has the power to corrupt absolutely, and your congregation needs your guidance on how to address the `real world' risks associated with it.'' AP News. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:36:41 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Bylaws Change Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980327093641.00844d40@mail.eden.com> > >John R. Crocker wrote: > >> How about the *current* slate of proposed bylaw changes. They are presented >> as changes of wording rather than "substance". I showed them to two >> attorneys I use for the non-profits I work for ... saying they are not >> "substantive" is more than just a slight distortion, its an outright lie. >> They are *significantly* substantive, *major* changes - the Wheaton Board of >> Directors will, at will, be able to dissolve any Lodge, sieze all of its >> assets, and will not even be constrained to use them in the area in which >> they were raised.-JRC > > My wife reads our copy of Quest, and then files it away somewhere so I >don't get to see it (or even find out it has arrived). In what issue are these >bylaw changes given? The New York Lodge's bylaws VERY specifically state that >assetts have to remain in New York if the Lodge is dissolved. Also, you may >recall that I have been lobbying to make it harder for National to dissolve a >Lodge; if they have made it easier, then I will protest most vigorously. > > Bart Lidofsky In addition what JRC has stated, a very key issue which was *not* addressed in the current bylaw changes is what happens if the National Charter is cancelled by Adyar. Considering what has happened in various other countries in the past, such a thing can happen in the US also. In such an eventuality, all assets go into the Theosophical Investment Trust. When that happens, the Trustees of this Trust are *not* answerable to *anyone*. The don't have to disclose anything to *anyone* about what is being done with the assets. That was exactly what happened to the Krishnamurti Trusts and when Krishnamurti wanted to know about the assets the Krishnamurti Trust, the Trust refused to disclose any of the financial details or wherabouts of funds. Then Krishnamurti and the Attorney General of California had to sue the Trustees and after 18 years of litigation finally the assets were transferred to the new Foundation he setup. This happened when Krishnamurti was alive with a Trust which was set up specifically help him travel and speak and broadcast his message. In the new Foundation as well others around the world, Krishnamurti saw to it that it is *not* Trustees could not self appoint themselves and the events cannot be repeated in the future. Even at the time of last TSA bylaws changes a couple of years ago (which was introduced as "housekeeping") I did communicate these concerns in writing to the National Board of Directors of TSA and the Trustees of TIT. At that time I even requested a copy of the bylaws and to this day I am yet to get a copy. The lack of response to address this serious issue as well as secrecy Wheaton wants to maintain regarding the bylaws, one wonders what it the long term game plan. By the way one of the veteran Trustees of Krishnmurti Trusts which was sued by K and CA Attorney General is on the Board of Directors of TSA as well as on the Theosophical Investment Trust. One has to wonder what is going on? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:50:13 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Bylaws Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980327095013.00837ab0@mail.eden.com> >JRC wrote: > >> > My wife reads our copy of Quest, and then files it away somewhere so >> I >> >don't get to see it (or even find out it has arrived). In what issue are >> these >> >bylaw changes given? The New York Lodge's bylaws VERY specifically state >> that >> >assetts have to remain in New York if the Lodge is dissolved. Also, you may >> >recall that I have been lobbying to make it harder for National to dissolve >> a >> >Lodge; if they have made it easier, then I will protest most vigorously. >> > Bart Lidofsky >> >> Its in the latest Quest (I just got it a week or two ago). Read it >> *carefully* (especially if you are part of a Lodge with significant assets). >> The bylaw would require you to *insert* language into your own bylaws. >> National has always had the power to form or dissolve Lodges, but this will >> give them unquestioned control of assets (assets that in most cases *they* >> didn't raise). (I am aware that you have looked deeply into the legalities >> surrounding Lodge property & ownership ... I suspect we may well agree about >> the potential ramifications of the proposed bylaws (-:). -JRC > >Yes, we do; this is EXTREMELY serious. While I see no new langauge making it >easier to dissolve a Lodge, it is clear that the language about requiring the >assets to be used locally has been removed. New York is having a Board meeting >tonight, and I will also see to it that John Sellon (the primary donor to our >Lodge) is also informed, in case he has not been. > Bart Lidofsky Please keep us informed. This is a very serious matter and in the long run can have very severe "political" ramifications which can bring IRS into action as well. Say I donate a million dollars worth of assets in San Antonio with hope that it will help disseminate Theosophy in San Antonio and its vicinity and the charter of San Antonio Lodge is cancelled for reasons best known only to the Board of Directors of TSA and the assets go to the control of TSA, which a couple of years later loses its charter and they the assets are refused by TIT and then it goes into the control of TS Adyar. TS Adyar can then convert all the assets into cash and put it in the bank at Adyar and use it for Theosophical purposes. While from a philosophical point of view it is acceptable, it may not be so from the Government's and donor's point of view. My congressman when he finds out the details is not going to like it and may want to find out what is going on. And this may start the ball rolling. Who knows where it will lead to? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:08:03 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <351BCEE3.28FA4E25@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > > That's what I get for doing my email at 1:30 AM. You are right, and I > am > >wrong. And I was wrong to use language that strong, even if I was correct > about > >it being one person. > > Bart Lidofsky > Dead wrong about that too. The site was a draft ... three different people > contributed parts of the individual pieces, and all of them had comments > from several others already integrated into them. -JRC I was using the conditional tense, meaning that I was wrong about that, too. Unfortunately, the English language is not quite as precise with various tenses as many other languages are (in other words, when I said, "even if I was right", it should have implied that I was wrong about that, too). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:43:46 EST From: Bodhijack Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1474 Message-ID: <75aab98e.35197a94@aol.com> dallas,thank you again. great info! do you have all that memorized? why do you suppose the masters asked that the letters not be published? dont they contain essentially the same material as the SD? any clue as to why they were published? did the request of "not to be published" include not to be shared with those people who are interested in order to learn more with the goal of assisting others with that knowledge? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 02:27:15 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Is it possible to change the TSA? Message-ID: In message <35193A4D.B36F56AA@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > I see much of what I term as "whining" here fitting into category 3. Someone >who is not a Theosophist comes in here (or goes to the ACT page), curious as >to >see what Theosophy is all about, and sees what it is about is a bunch of people >complaining about other people. And they get turned away. Note, by contrast, >the >Theosophy International page, which creates positive alternatives rather than >emphasizing the negative. Thanks for the plug - and don't forget, many "TI" members are *also* members of various TS organisations, which is good. Alan :-) THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:18:35 -0600 From: "Senzar Inc." Subject: Re: SD Symposium Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980325201835.00792580@mail.stic.net> >> If the files are available in a word processing format, they can be easily >> posted on the Internet. Thus the proceedings will be accessible to overseas >> people at no cost to them. This would be very appreciated by those from the >> former East European countries. I am posting this to theos-l, theos-talk, >> ti-l and theos-news for information. >> >> mkr > >Thanks,Doss. i have been very busy this days, and the machines in school >very full. fortunately i recorded these mails in the machine, and 'till >now i'm reading them. >Waiting for more news.... >Estrella There is response from the organizers and I am hoping that the material will be made available on the net for everyone in the world can have access to it for free. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:21:07 -0600 From: "Senzar Inc." Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980325202107.007ca7a0@mail.stic.net> >It appears to be the work of a single individual. Greatest changes in the world has been brought about by single individuals. So I am very optimistic. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:26:17 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <3519E6F9.B771C34C@sprynet.com> Senzar Inc. wrote: > >It appears to be the work of a single individual. > > Greatest changes in the world has been brought about by single individuals. > So I am very optimistic. Sorry, let me rephrase: It looks like the work of a single individual pretending to be a larger organization. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:02:02 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: ACTivist Message-ID: <3519EF5A.E468E648@gate.net> --------------E11EE0BF94F57872F484D1BB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bart, Greetings my friend. It appears once again we are at odds regarding the issue of the Wheatonists (the management of TSA). With a little research perhaps a brave soul on the staff at Wheaton, who is not afraid of repercussions, will acknowledge the fact of mandatory morning meditation. I received a copy of the ACTIVIST Newsletter, I hope one was sent to you. It succinctly stated some of the issues found repugnant relative to the manner the Wheatonists deal with the membership and their moral responsibility. I am sure a plethora of others will be forthcoming. Your past statements concerning the ACTions of people who have a problem with Wheaton would be to address those problems en masse, appears to have been a great idea Bart. For a fact, you have motivated many people to do just that, now. I joined the ACT group, I hope to see your name added to the list soon. Further, it appears that this ACTivist group is far from the effort on one TSA member. The newsletter I am aware of, and the Web Page still under construction, lists many TSA members of unquestioned veracity and capacity of intellect. Members of untarnished reputations and proven seekers of truth. People of this ilk have joined a group calling itself, " The Association of Concerned Theosophists (ACT) ". Each I believe have documented facts far afield of the 'official' versions of ' reality ' handed out like crusts of stale bread to the membership. I think it is time for all of us to ask for, " ... more soup please ". An issue that has opened my eyes is the latest by-law change. Surely, it is a slight fabric that separates the logic of what is allegedly "housekeeping" and the fact that a naked power grab of financial resources is being perpetrated. A man of your ability will surely see through to the truth of that fact. Bart I do indeed think that your motivation of ' ACT ' has been important. Once again, I do hope to have the pleasure of knowing you are a fellow ' ACT ', member soon. Peace Profound Ken Malkin P.S. watch for the ES ( and its sister organizations) article coming soon to the WP and the NL. --------------E11EE0BF94F57872F484D1BB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bart,

Greetings my friend. It appears once again we are at odds regarding the issue of the
Wheatonists (the management of TSA). With a little research perhaps a brave soul on
the staff at Wheaton, who is not afraid of repercussions, will acknowledge the fact of
mandatory morning meditation.

I received a copy of the ACTIVIST Newsletter, I hope one was sent to you. It succinctly
stated some of the issues found repugnant relative to the manner the Wheatonists deal
with the membership and their moral responsibility. I am sure a plethora of others will be forthcoming.

Your past statements concerning the ACTions of people who have a problem with Wheaton would be to address those problems en masse, appears to have been a great idea Bart. For a fact, you have motivated many people to do just that, now. I joined the ACT group, I hope to see your name added to the list soon.

Further, it appears that this ACTivist group is far from the effort on one TSA member.
The newsletter I am aware of, and the Web Page still under construction, lists many TSA
members of unquestioned veracity and capacity of intellect. Members of untarnished
reputations and proven seekers of truth. People of this ilk have joined a group calling itself,
                              " The Association of Concerned Theosophists (ACT) ".
Each I believe have documented facts far afield of the 'official' versions of ' reality ' handed
out like crusts of stale bread to the membership. I think it is time for all of us to ask for,
" ... more soup please ".

An issue that has opened my eyes is the latest by-law change. Surely, it is a slight fabric that separates the logic of what is allegedly "housekeeping" and the fact that a naked power grab
of financial resources is being perpetrated. A man of your ability will surely see through to
the truth of that fact.

Bart I do indeed think that your motivation of ' ACT ' has been important. Once again, I do
hope to have the pleasure of knowing you are a fellow ' ACT ', member soon.

Peace Profound
Ken Malkin 

P.S. watch for the ES ( and its sister organizations) article coming soon to the WP
and the NL. --------------E11EE0BF94F57872F484D1BB-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:32:17 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ACTivist Message-ID: <3519F671.20B629E1@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > Greetings my friend. It appears once again we are at odds regarding the > issue of the > Wheatonists (the management of TSA). With a little research perhaps a > brave soul on > the staff at Wheaton, who is not afraid of repercussions, will > acknowledge the fact of > mandatory morning meditation. Since our information seems to be at odds, I figure it might be a manner of definition. What happens if a staffer at Wheaton refuses to join in on morning meditation, especially if that reason is backed by a basic belief (some people, myself included, simply don't like group meditation). > Further, it appears that this ACTivist group is far from the effort on > one TSA member. Thank you for the information. Believe it or not, that makes me feel a lot better. I have seen a lot of damage done by commitees of one pretending to represent a lot more people, and getting followers that way. The empty spots in the web page seemed to point to a lack of people other than the page owner in the group. I have heard stories, for example, of a vote taken by a meeting of eight people supposed to represent the opinions of the majority of members of an entire Theosophical Federation. Such things are ridiiculous, anti-democratic, and anti-Theosophical; don't you agree? > is a slight fabric that separates the logic of what is allegedly > "housekeeping" and the fact that a naked power grab > of financial resources is being perpetrated. A man of your ability will > surely see through to > the truth of that fact. I agree that it was far more than "housekeeping". But, as I have said, it was represented to me (as the secretary of the NYTS bylaws commitee) as far more than housekeeping, and I do not recall the word "housekeeping" used by anybody but its opponents. Seriously, if you can give me a source, I would appreciate it. > P.S. watch for the ES ( and its sister organizations) article coming > soon to the WP > and the NL. It is 1:30 AM, and I might be getting a little thick...what are the sister organizations of the ES, and what is the WP and the NL? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:12:46 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Service and Exhaustion Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980327062502.1aff3e28@mail.iprolink.co.nz> Thoa, >I believe in listening to ourselves as to what our needs are. Yes, indeed. I think we're culturally programmed to ignore most of the messages from our bodies, on their different planes. There's so much pressure and distraction, for many of us. >We should >realize our needs without feeling that we are being selfish or weak. If we want to be selfless enough to be of service, we have to be selfish enough to take good care of ourselves, otherwise we'll be no use to anybody! Then all we have to do is avoid the trap of beating ourselves up about it. > ... It takes fine >talent to deal with people. It's a gamble. Sometimes we choose not to >gamble and isolate ourselves by opening a good book and listening to >beautiful music. Doorway to another, maybe bigger world ... . It's conflict that is tiring, isn't it? And some people definitely tend to suck you dry, though I don't put many in that category. That's why pets are so good for people, especially the elderly, and even on space journeys - the relationships are so much less complicated and risky, yet there is lots of scope for plenty of affection, giving and receiving the best each is capable of. > >New Zealand T.S. sounds like a great group. > Some good things are certainly happening there. Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:12:49 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: Service and Exhaustion Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980327062505.1ce70674@mail.iprolink.co.nz> Julien: >I am in a helping profession and also find myself drained in helping >situations. It seems the more intense the encounter(s), the more >re-energizing time I need. Recently, I experienced such an intense >encounter that, although the outcome was positive for the >participants, it seems to have knocked out part of my immune system >and I was down with a nasty cold for a few days. Stress certainly impacts on the immune system, as I have proved to myself several times by going down with either a cold or some other kind of infection, usually just after the stressful time has passed. You kind of keep going on adrenalin while the pressure is on, but there's a price to pay afterwards. A strong experience doesn't have to be negative to cause stress, too. I think that Thoa and you and I are agreeing that it's good to have realistic expectations of what we can do and to give ourselves the time and space to recoup inwardly after a lot of outward activity. Then to watch out for the negative messages against doing this that are floating around. It's finding the right balance, is it not - not always easy to do. Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:14:27 -0700 From: "John R. Crocker" Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <000801bd58c9$e02f29e0$17338396@lo201c.registrar.umt.edu> > Sorry, let me rephrase: It looks like the work of a single individual >pretending to be a larger organization. > Bart Lidofsky Sorry ... but it *is* a larger organization. Interesting that you would simply assume that it is an individual and then even accuse the individual of wanting to be a "dictator". ACT is a considerable group of Theosophists from around the country - including some quite prominant names and members of a lot of the larger branches. It has done significant organizing, raised a good deal of funds by itself, and over the next few months will not only be presenting in depth critiques of a lot of the current operations - backed up with a good deal of the evidence you desire - but will also be working to field an entire slate of candidates for the next election, a number of platform points (its that "positive ideas for improvement" that you so love), and will fund, by itself, the avenues of information dissemination that will render JA's control of the Quest meaningless. A *LOT* of people, not just a few individuals, have been complaining about things for years, and trying to offer alternatives - only to be ignored, called "whiners", have their "positive ideas" dismissed, or be told its none of their business. So they did exactly what you keep saying they should - expended a large amount of energy organizing, developing a clear vision of how things *should* be - and are now launching a public organization to serve as a rallying point around which the considerable number of Theosophists who believe the TS is in *bad* hands can organize. In the next election, for the first time in a good while, American Theosophists will be presented with a very clear choice between two very different perspectives of Theosophy, and the operations of Theosophical Headquarters. It will be interesting to see whether all those who've been telling the "whiners" to shut up and do something, all those who have said they are open to "new ideas" - it will be interesting to see what they do when presented with something actually being done, and new ideas actually being presented. Interesting to see what people who have been demanding "evidence" do when its actually presented. And the same tactics used up to now simply won't work anymore. I hope you *do* try to dismiss ACT as a "single individual", hope the Wheaton Leadership *does* try to ignore it as it has ignored so many individuals over the years. The next year will be very lively in American Theosophy. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:27:40 -0700 From: "John R. Crocker" Subject: Re: ACTivist Message-ID: <002b01bd58cb$b809d760$17338396@lo201c.registrar.umt.edu> > I agree that it was far more than "housekeeping". But, as I have said, it was represented to me (as the secretary of the NYTS bylaws commitee) as far more than housekeeping, and >I do not recall the word "housekeeping" used by anybody but its opponents. Seriously, if you can give me a source, I would appreciate it. How about the *current* slate of proposed bylaw changes. They are presented as changes of wording rather than "substance". I showed them to two attorneys I use for the non-profits I work for ... saying they are not "substantive" is more than just a slight distortion, its an outright lie. They are *significantly* substantive, *major* changes - the Wheaton Board of Directors will, at will, be able to dissolve any Lodge, sieze all of its assets, and will not even be constrained to use them in the area in which they were raised.-JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:27:47 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ACT Message-ID: <351AAC33.A79C8BBF@sprynet.com> John R. Crocker wrote: > > Sorry, let me rephrase: It looks like the work of a single individual > >pretending to be a larger organization. > > Bart Lidofsky > > Sorry ... but it *is* a larger organization. Interesting that you would > simply assume that it is an individual and then even accuse the individual > of wanting to be a "dictator". I didn't. However, I noted a strong correlation between the pages that were under construction, and the pages that would indicate that this was more than just one person trying to remake the TS in his/her own image. Therefore, it LOOKED like the work of a single individual pretending to be a large organization. I have been told by Ken (who, although I disagree with him, I have not yet known to tell a deliberate lie) that I wa incorrect, and I expressed my relief at being incorrect. > ACT is a considerable group of Theosophists > from around the country - including some quite prominant names and members > of a lot of the larger branches. It has done significant organizing, raised > a good deal of funds by itself, and over the next few months will not only > be presenting in depth critiques of a lot of the current operations - backed > up with a good deal of the evidence you desire - but will also be working to > field an entire slate of candidates for the next election, a number of > platform points (its that "positive ideas for improvement" that you so > love), and will fund, by itself, the avenues of information dissemination > that will render JA's control of the Quest meaningless. I am glad to hear that. Yes, you are now talking about the "positive ideas for improvement" that I have expressed a need for in the past. If this is indeed the case, while I may or may not support your individual platforms, I definitely do support your existence (as in Voltaire's "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"). > In the next election, for the first time in a good while, American > Theosophists will be presented with a very clear choice between two very > different perspectives of Theosophy, and the operations of Theosophical > Headquarters. It will be interesting to see whether all those who've been > telling the "whiners" to shut up and do something, all those who have said > they are open to "new ideas" - it will be interesting to see what they do > when presented with something actually being done, and new ideas actually > being presented. Interesting to see what people who have been demanding > "evidence" do when its actually presented. Sounds good to me. Let's hope that the American Theosophist keeps up its old practice of allowing the candidates space to state their positions, as well. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:00:32 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: On the simposium Message-ID: <351810E0.303@usa.net> > If the files are available in a word processing format, they can be easily > posted on the Internet. Thus the proceedings will be accessible to overseas > people at no cost to them. This would be very appreciated by those from the > former East European countries. I am posting this to theos-l, theos-talk, > ti-l and theos-news for information. > > mkr Thanks,Doss. i have been very busy this days, and the machines in school very full. fortunately i recorded these mails in the machine, and 'till now i'm reading them. Waiting for more news.... Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:59:52 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: You posting . of Mar 21 - on "belief" and "fact" Theos-l Message-ID: <351848F7.DAA23C27@sprynet.com> Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > I say this because to me it is a fact, and the veneer of 'belonging' > is only a veneer which is either reinforced or abraded every time on > has contact with others or takes a responsible position. But I think > you know this as well as I do, and perhaps I am overstepping the > bounds of acquaintance in mentioning all this. One of the things that attracted me to Theosophy initially was that there was no dogma, no required beliefs. When presenting Theosophical doctrines to outsiders, I stress that these are beliefs, not facts, and up to the individual to prove or disprove to his or her satisfaction. There are some members who set my teeth on edge by declaring as absolute fact things for which there is no proof other than their own faith. It is important, in my opinion, to make an effort to remember, and label, which is which. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:33:37 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Is it possible to change the TSA? Message-ID: The following URL (under construction) was sent to me yesterday, and will affect TSA or ex TSA members only, so far as I can see. http://users.vnet.net/jem/ACT/index.html Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:22:07 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: We are looking for contacts and help. Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Hello. Would you like to help us to set on foot Theosophical Society in Petrozavodsk (capital of Karelia republic). Send us a message if you are ready to help us. With respect. Jan Jaskelainen Russia, Karelia, Petrozavodsk, Lunocharsky st., 15, 43 Alan The e-mail adress from which this came was "Michael I. Nesterenko" THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:33:23 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Is it possible to change the TSA? Message-ID: <35187B03.6DB4EEE7@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > The following URL (under construction) was sent to me yesterday, and > will affect TSA or ex TSA members only, so far as I can see. > > http://users.vnet.net/jem/ACT/index.html It appears to be the work of a single individual, looking for support. Not that he doesn't bring up some good points (and some bad points, as well; but certainly there is room for discussion even with those). Other than problems with phrasing, a couple of major problems: 1) The rolls of the E.S. are no more secret than the rolls of the T.S. I, for example, not being and E.S. member, know who all the E.S. members at the New York Lodge are. How do I know? I asked. There is a difference between the number of E.S. members who are directors of the TSA being secret, and the author of the piece being too lazy to ask, and expect them to come forward to him and tell him without his asking. Many dedicated Theosophists join the E.S. Many dedicated members run for National Office. A correspondence is not ridiculous. Also, the early TS/ES connection is misrepresented; there was also a large crossover then, as well. 2) I have been told by staff members at Olcott that the only spiritual practices imposed on the members is that meat may not be brought into the public areas or the main building (and staff members are free to eat meat off-premises). Now, it is possible that the staff members FEEL pressured. There is certainly some similar pressure at the New York Lodge (where my wife is a resident staff member and I am a resident volunteer), which I ignore. But I was raised to always do what I think is right, no matter what anybody else says. Which is why I endure the criticism I receive on this list... 3) The statements on the 3 Objects, particularly the 3rd, are carefully chosen out of a lot of contradictory statements. In any case, any TSA member in the New York area who is interested in observing the 3rd Object can join our Thursday evening study group, where we have covered Tarot, are currently covering concentration methods for use in more advanced meditation techniques, and, later in the Spring, will be studying the INNER GROUP TEACHINGS OF BLAVATSKY, and, if we feel up to it, will then be trying the exercises therein. I am not saying that there aren't problems in the TSA. I am not saying that it is not a good idea for people to get together, to fix the problems. But I do believe, and put those beliefs into practice, that improvement comes from positive action, getting involved, working to make things right, rather than by whining about what is wrong. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:51:30 +0000 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: Is it possible to change the TSA? Message-ID: <199803250651.XAA12059@server.umt.edu> > I am not saying that there aren't problems in the TSA. I am not >saying that it is not a good idea for people to get together, to fix the >problems. But I do believe, and put those beliefs into practice, that >improvement comes from positive action, getting involved, working to >make things right, rather than by whining about what is wrong. Well yes, and so far your approach has apparently lead to a drop in membership of close to one third in less than a decade, growing anger and frustration, and a widespread sense that the TSA is dying. When you're done mouthing pithy little aphorisms about "positive action" leading to "improvement", and engaging in what appears to be an almost perpetual (if curiously ironic) whining about "whiners" (who are apparently defined as any who actually decide to call *BS* on the vast web of games the Wheaton leadership is playing) perhaps you'll glance once at how successful those "improvements" have been. I also believe in "positive change" - and if a group of people are strangling the TS, "positive change" means to attempt to point out the strangulation, and if at all possible to banish the stranglers from headquarters. Call it "whining" if you want bucko, but there's a new wind afoot ... and I wonder how well you'll work if headquarters winds up being governed by those who think of Theosophy in far different terms than you do. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:09:33 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Is it possible to change the TSA? Message-ID: <35193A4D.B36F56AA@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > frustration, and a widespread sense that the TSA is dying. When you're done > mouthing pithy little aphorisms about "positive action" leading to > "improvement", and engaging in what appears to be an almost perpetual (if > curiously ironic) whining about "whiners" (who are apparently defined as any > who actually decide to call *BS* on the vast web of games the Wheaton > leadership is playing) perhaps you'll glance once at how successful those > "improvements" have been. There are a number of people who are not just complaining, they are actively doing something positive, and I have praised their efforts in this space, before. The whiners are those who feel that the TSA leadership should resign en masse, and hand the leadership over to THEM, without any effort on the part of the whiners except whining. The "Concerned Theosophist"'s plan seems to consist of HIM becoming the dictator of what is or is not Theosophical, rather than someone else. > I also believe in "positive change" - and if a group of people are > strangling the TS, "positive change" means to attempt to point out the > strangulation, and if at all possible to banish the stranglers from > headquarters. Call it "whining" if you want bucko, but there's a new wind > afoot ... and I wonder how well you'll work if headquarters winds up being > governed by those who think of Theosophy in far different terms than you do. OK, now we're getting somewhere. There are three categories of wrongdoing by the leadership of an organization: 1) An action with which you do not agree, 2) An action violating the letter or spirit of the rules of the organization, 3) An action which is destructive to the organization. Now, if the actions are in category 1, then simply complaining about it IS whining. If the actions are in category 2, if the violation is your personal interpretation of the rules, then it is whining, otherwise, it is important, and one is obligated not only to mention the wrongdoing, but to give compelling evidenced as well. Simple accusations are whining, and laziness is NOT an excuse to fail to produce the evidence. And, in most systems of justice, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. Now, let's go to category 3. Simply stating the activities is whining. If one sees it as a problem, one should state the activities, AND state WHY one thinks they are destructive. If one stops there, and says, "everybody has to agree with me or they are an idiot/triator/something similar, then it goes back into the realm of "whining". If one asks for possible POSITIVE solutions, or proposes them, then it becomes positive action. I see much of what I term as "whining" here fitting into category 3. Someone who is not a Theosophist comes in here (or goes to the ACT page), curious as to see what Theosophy is all about, and sees what it is about is a bunch of people complaining about other people. And they get turned away. Note, by contrast, the Theosophy International page, which creates positive alternatives rather than emphasizing the negative. So, yes, I see the whining as destructive to the Theosophical Society. And I do not see, as the alternative, quietly accepting everything that's thrown at you. The alternative I see is to first use discrimination: Figure out the difference between what is truly wrong, and what is merely one's own ego being threatened. Second, see what would be a better alternative to what is wrong. The third is to convince others that your alternative is preferable to the current actions. Until then, complaining is tearing down, not building up. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:42:07 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Is it possible to change the TSA? Message-ID: *Ding* *Ding* Round 2,124!!! Bart & JRC: >> I am not saying that there aren't problems in the TSA. I am not >>saying that it is not a good idea for people to get together, to fix the >>problems. But I do believe, and put those beliefs into practice, that >>improvement comes from positive action, getting involved, working to >>make things right, rather than by whining about what is wrong. > >Well yes, and so far your approach has apparently lead to a drop in >membership of close to one third in less than a decade, growing anger and >frustration, and a widespread sense that the TSA is dying. When you're done >mouthing pithy little aphorisms about "positive action" leading to >"improvement", and engaging in what appears to be an almost perpetual (if >curiously ironic) whining about "whiners" (who are apparently defined as any >who actually decide to call *BS* on the vast web of games the Wheaton >leadership is playing) perhaps you'll glance once at how successful those >"improvements" have been. > >I also believe in "positive change" - and if a group of people are >strangling the TS, "positive change" means to attempt to point out the >strangulation, and if at all possible to banish the stranglers from >headquarters. Call it "whining" if you want bucko, but there's a new wind >afoot ... and I wonder how well you'll work if headquarters winds up being >governed by those who think of Theosophy in far different terms than you do. >-JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:33:01 EST From: Bodhijack Subject: is this a sound question? Message-ID: <53dfb97e.3516c6ff@aol.com> i've read (possibly in theosophical literature) that sound pervades the universe. but i know that sound is created internally. how are the 2 reconciled? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:20:47 +1000 From: dport@ozemail.com.au Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1473 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980324112047.006864e8@ozemail.com.au> > is it correct to say that the 2 primary sources of info for theosophy are the > secret doctrine & themahatma letters? I would also throw in Sinnet - Esoteric Budhism and ISIS is always good value. The Mighty NOS * Page me online through my Personal Communication Center: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2678258 (go there and try it!) or, * Send me E-mail Express directly to my computer screen 2678258@pager.mirabilis.com For downloading ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ For adding similar signatures to your e-mail go to: http://www.icq.com/emailsig.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:36:06 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1473 Message-ID: <199803241845.KAA17125@nwc.net> March 24th 1998 Dear "Bodhijack": For this era, Mme. Blavatsky's writings convey the information from the Great Lodge of the Adepts who make themselves responsible for the preservation, research, and promulgation of the information that every department of Nature (the Whole Universe, and our Earth) provides. Her writings start with articles which she sent to various journals during her life work. She edited three magazines herself: THEOSOPHIST -- from 1879 issued in India she was co-editor with Col. Olcott for 9 volumes LUCIFER -- from 1887 to her death in 1891 Annie Besant was made co-editor with her in 1889 THE VAHAN -- from 1891 for a few weeks -- a journal in which questions were answered These articles and other writings of hers have been gathered by several publishers into the compass of a few volumes, such as a 3 volume edition (Published by Theosophy Company, . 245 W 33rd St., Los Angeles, Ca.) and COLLECTED WORKS, BLAVATSKY in 15 volumes (Published by Theosophical Publishing House, Adyar, London, Wheaton). 2 other books were published that contained a grouping of her articles during her life: A MODERN PANARION (Photographic reprint - Theosophy Company, LA) FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY ( ditto ) In addition Mme. Blavatsky published several books: ISIS UNVEILED (1877) (Photographic copy from Theosophy Company, LA) Vol. I: Science; Vol. II: Religion -- a marvelous compendium of information drawn from classical literature on the subject of occultism and the origins and inter-relations of religions. THE SECRET DOCTRINE (1888) ( ditto ) 2 Volumes in one. Vol. 1 on Cosmogenesis -- the fundamental principles of evolution starting with Universal manifestation, its scope and goal. Vol. 2 deals with the evolution of Man as a Mind-being, and traces is on our Earth from its inception. This includes spiritual, intellectual, and physical changes as time rolled by, up to the present. After Mme. Blavatsky's death this book was reissued in a "Third and Revised Edition." There are over 40,000 alterations in this book which Mme. Blavatsky did not supervise or authorize. In the course of writing the first 2 volumes of the S D, Mme. Blavatsky referred to a 3rd and a 4th volume which were under preparation. Her close students and collaborators in the production on the S D in 2 Vols. stated that the manuscripts for such additional volumes had been written, but not finally edited by her. After her death a number of articles which she had prepared for publishing were issued in LUCIFER in 1891-3. In 1897 there was issued under the editing of Mrs. A. Besant a "THIRD VOLUME OF THE SECRET DOCTRINE" -- on scrutiny it is found to consist of further unedited articles which Mme. Blavatsky had under preparation, and additional matter, which, apparently received editorial changes under the hand of Mrs. A. Besant. But this "THIRD VOL. S D" is not the "third volume" to which HPB referred in the first 2 volumes of the SD. THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (1889) (ditto ) Basic principles and application of practical Theosophy in dialog form between an "Enquirer," and a "Theosophist," ( H.P.Blavatsky ) A basic book on Theosophy which all ought to be thoroughly acquainted with. THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE (1889) (ditto ) A book that relates to the discipline of a student under occult or esoteric instruction -- the ethics and practice of the "higher life." THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY ( ditto ) This was under editing in 1891 when Mme. Blavatsky died. Her secretary, Mr. G.R.S.Mead was assisting her in this. She edited the firs 32 pages, and Mr. Mead added definitions drawn from various sources in Theosophical Literature. He stated that the book was only partially edited by HPB. It does however in various places contain information not to be found any where else. It gives definitions for over 2300 religious and theosophical words used in Theosophical literature by Mme. Blavatsky, chiefly. THE MAHATMA LETTERS were originally published in 1925, and are compended from original manuscripts deposited with the British Museum by Mr. A.P. Sinnett, their recipient. Those letters were the result of a correspondence carried on between 1880 and 1885 with several of the Adepts (Mahatmas--Great Souls) who were Mme. Blavatsky's Teachers, and whose duty was is to launch the Theosophical Movement of this era. This book was edited by Mr. Sinnett's friend Trevor Barker after his death. In several places among the Letters, the Mahatmas state that they were NOT TO BE PUBLISHED. Mme. Blavatsky repeatedly declared that the wisdom which she set down in her writings was not "hers," but Theirs. There also exists a "certificate" from two of the Mahatmas stating that THE SECRET DOCTRINE is the joint product of their three-fold collaboration [ THE PATH, Vol. 8, p.1-3 "The Authorship of the SECRET DOCTRINE" ] Excuse this somewhat lengthy answer, but it is given so you will have the facts, as I presently know them concerning these writings. Dallas ========================================== | From: theos-l@vnet.net | To: Multiple recipients of list | Subject: THEOS-L digest 1473 | | | Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:20:44 EST | From: Bodhijack | To: theos-l@vnet.net | Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1472 | Message-ID: <7b7727a.3516c41e@aol.com> | | dallas,thank you for your eloquent answer; it did help. is it correct to say | that the 2 primary sources of info for theosophy are the secret doctrine & the | mahatma letters? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:37:38 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Service and Exhaustion Message-ID: Dear Murray and Julien, I believe in listening to ourselves as to what our needs are. We should realize our needs without feeling that we are being selfish or weak. We all would love to be arhats, but we are only human beings. Hey, we should pat our wondrous evolved backs! Not listening to ourselves will only result in unhappiness and sickness. Your suggestions are good, Murray. Human association is powerful. It can be either positive or negative. I've been greatly encouraged and inspired by people. I've also been discouraged and hurt by people. It takes fine talent to deal with people. It's a gamble. Sometimes we choose not to gamble and isolate ourselves by opening a good book and listening to beautiful music. New Zealand T.S. sounds like a great group. Thoa :o) Julien: >I am in a helping profession and also find myself drained in helping >situations. It seems the more intense the encounter(s), the more re-energizing >time I need. Recently, I experienced such an intense encounter that, although >the outcome was positive for the participants, it seems to have knocked out >part of my immune system and I was down with a nasty cold for a few days. >>Murray: >Ah, yes :-) A familiar pattern. I think people who give a lot this way >*need* to be alone and recharge inwardly, by whatever method works for them, >be it going on a nature walk, listening to some beautiful music, painting >something, meditating etc etc. And to give themselves space to be grumpy and >then more space for the waves and vortices in their energy system to subside >and the tendrils of consciousness to withdraw from the tangled alveoli of >thought and feeling, so to speak. A mixed medical metaphor, but the idea is >like the breath withdrawing from the many little pockets in the lungs to >recombine into one stream. > >One method that works for me is a kind of light-seeking, centre-seeking >meditation that begins with a complete-as-possible relaxation of body and >mind. Sometimes, the right kind of music does it, but oddly I don't usually >like music going at the same time as meditating. Sometimes a >spiritually-recharging, soul-contacting conversation with another person >does it, where we discover an inner resonance and share in a way that leaves >both feeling inwardly fed and glowing. That last one sounds a little odd - >to recover from being with people by having the right kind of exchange with >another person - but I find it works. Sometimes a good theosophical meeting >- even an e-mail exchange - can lead to this effect. > >In fact, it wouldn't be a bad idea for theosophical groups to make it a goal >for *all* their meetings and dialogs to leave people feeling recharged and >all lit up, having delighted in each other's presence. Even had fun! IT IS >POSSIBLE - I know. It happened in my "Karma Drama" study course evening >last week. And there was a lot of it at the NZ TS Convention early this year. > >I think that further along the evolutionary track, there are those who know >how to keep their centre, probably because the connection to it is so wide >and clear, and the centre of gravity of their consciousness is so much more >into the realm of light, while doing all sorts of arduous things under >difficult circumstances. The energy just seems to flood through them. But >even they, I think, need time to be reflective and attune inwardly. > >Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:19:05 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: You posting . of Mar 21 - on "belief" and "fact" Theos-l Message-ID: <199803242007.MAA21481@nwc.net> Mar 24th 1998 Dallas at dalval@nwc.net Dear Bart: On: 'belief' and 'fact.' When I see the two words "belief" and "fact" I get very interested in definition, as to me, "belief" is either blind (as 'credo' or 'tenets' in some dogmatic religion, or as the acceptance of a scientific hypothesis as TRUE without being able to verify either of those oneself) or, it is "enlightened," because we have proved to ourselves that such or such is accurate, repetitive, and therefore reliable (insofar as any 'relative truth' can be a 'fact.'). I define 'fact, or facts' as above -- something that anyone at any time and in any place can verify as accurate and reliable. [ Mme. Blavatsky wrote on this subject a remarkable article WHAT IS TRUTH ? which she published in LUCIFER, Vol. I, p. 425 -- Feb. 1888 -- ULT edition of HPB Articles, vol. I, p. 1 ] Either way, if you think that members of a group subscribe either in speech or writing to certain 'beliefs,' they may do so in public, or by speech. But what they do independently, in private, or spontaneously, may be at variance with those beliefs publicly expressed. No matter that the organization may be, the individuals who make it up do not abrogate their individual responsibility for decisions from moment to moment when they feel, think or act. Its the same thing for our "theosophical bodies" and their membership. Therefore the "independent loyalty" to theosophy, once one has assured themselves of its veracity ought to be stressed, and non 'membership/ in any particular body. I say this because to me it is a fact, and the veneer of 'belonging' is only a veneer which is either reinforced or abraded every time on has contact with others or takes a responsible position. But I think you know this as well as I do, and perhaps I am overstepping the bounds of acquaintance in mentioning all this. If so, excuse me. Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:20:44 EST From: Bodhijack Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1472 Message-ID: <7b7727a.3516c41e@aol.com> dallas,thank you for your eloquent answer; it did help. is it correct to say that the 2 primary sources of info for theosophy are the secret doctrine & the mahatma letters? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 06:53:03 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: Theos-World & Swedenborg -- Scope of Theosophical work and Research Message-ID: <199803211510.HAA08042@nwc.net> March 21st 1998 Dallas TenBroeck writes: Dear Jeff Needle: The original Theosophical Society was first organized in New York on November 17th 1875. By 1880 its work and ideas had spread abroad to Europe and Asia. These were largely fueled by Mme. Blavatsky's articles and the writing of ISIS UNVEILED, in which several world scholars collaborated to assemble those facts which could draw the attention of individuals who were seeking for the basis of thought and study that all philosophies and religions indicated was unified at their base and root. As to the original Theosophical Society: It was organized to work as a non-dogmatic, non-sectarian forum, where persons from any religion, race, sect, or persuasion could gather and discuss ideas (whether religious or scientific) which enlarged the perception of the development of man's thought, and knowledge of his nature, origins, purpose, future and the innate powers of thought and sensation that he/she had. The original Theosophical Society had 3 Objects: Its first object was to establish a nucleus for a brotherhood of humanity -- a novel idea in those days, which gained gradual acceptance, and over the past 120 years has gained general acceptance among all persons of goodwill. The other two objects were: 2. To research ancient literature with the object of verifying the concept that all religions had the same basic mythology and lore, and taught in general the same ethics/morality. The 3rd. Object was to investigate ( not to practice or dabble in) the unexplained laws of nature and the psychical faculties latent in all humans. In other words, to become more familiar with our innate abilities in the realm of the mind/thought, and the feeling/desire nature we all possess. The reason practice was not emphasized was that psychic powers had tremendous force and could prove dangerous if used or investigated without adequate knowledge, so that they could be carefully controlled. To make this clearer Mme. Blavatsky, who was the prime focus through whom the wisdom that has been named "Theosophical" wrote many articles and books during the succeeding 16 years till her death in 1891. Among these are: THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY -- which affords an over-view of Theosophical philosophy and work as well as answering most of the important questions concerning the constitution of man's psychic and mental nature, and, the objects in practice of theosophical philosophy. THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE-- which affords a view of the principles of living which a practice of theosophical ideas would suggest to one who became interested in the deeper aspects of its philosophy. ISIS UNVEILED, which was written, largely based on the "Three Objects" of the Theosophical Society, with a view to making available to the membership information drawn from classical literature -- that which reinforces the ideas of brotherhood, the unity of religions and philosophical thought, and the powers of thought and feeling that are latent in every human, and which need to be understood if potential is to be translated by them into actual usage and sure direction. THE SECRET DOCTRINE -- this gives an over-view of the records of history that have been preserved by the Lodge of the Great Adepts (Individuals whose work in the past has moved national and racial beliefs and from which all the world-religions have been derived). This work gives a view of cosmology and the derivation of the Earth and the Universe from the general urge to evolution. The 2nd volume covers the evolution of Mankind from three points of view: 1. the "spiritual," 2. the intellectual (or mental), and 3. the physical evolution of the form that man (as intelligence) uses. [ It considers the question of fossils and the interpretation of their antiquity and derivation, etc.. and reviews the hypotheses that were current in her time. ] To assist in spreading a knowledge of Theosophy several magazines were published: THE THEOSOPHIST, published in India beginning October 1879....This was edited in collaboration with Col. H.S. Olcott, President of the T.S. for the first 10 volumes. HPB moved in 1885 to Europe and conducted work for the T S there. And she published: LUCIFER, published in London, beginning 1887, and edited by HPB till her death in 1891. THE PATH, edited by HPB's closest friend and pupil: Mr. Wm. q. Judge, in New York, beginning in 1876 and which he continually edited till his death in 1896. Thanks to his unremitting work and the assistance of many others, the membership in America grew to over 5,000 by 1896 with over 300 active branches. He also wrote many articles of value and some brief books which give a newcomer an introduction to the scope of Theosophy. AN EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY (36 pages) THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY (178 pages) THE BHAGAVAD GITA & Notes thereon THE YOGA SUTRAS OF PATANJALI - A key to man's true psychology. These should be mentioned because of their value to the modern student/inquirer. These three magazines contain most of the important articles written by H.P.B. (as Mme. Blavatsky is usually called) and taken together this represents the bulk of the original teachings of Theosophy. Since then, students have added what they consider to be supplementary findings and concepts. But, to be considered accurate and valuable, those need to be carefully compared with the original teachings of theosophy by Mme. Blavatsky for continuity and accuracy. It will be found that the original teachings form a unified system. Later theories and writings do not always conform to the scope that is placed on the horizon of thought by Mme. Blavatsky, writing as Agent for the Great Lodge of Adepts. I mention these books and magazines to you from the outset as they give you a view of the ideas on which the theosophical societies, and students of theosophical ideas have come together to share the fruit of their studies and inquiries. If you should be interested in the actual history of Theosophy there is in print: THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT 1875 -- 1950 This book is written and based on documents that indicate the flow of events since 1875. If I can be of more help, please write. Best wishes, Dallas =============================================== | From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins | To: theos-talk@theosophy.com | Subject: Re: Theos-World Swedenbor | Date: Friday, March 20, 1998 6:45 PM | | The group was in London, and poet William Blake was a member. | jhe | | Jeff Needle wrote: | | > > Dear Jeff, | > > | > > Yes, Swedenborg is considered a "theosophist" in the 18th century | > > meaning of that word. After Swedenborg's death, his followers formed an | > > organization dedicated to the study of his writings. The organization | > > was called "The Theosophical Society." sometime before 1825, it was | > > re-organized into today's Swedenborgian Church. Of course, there is no | > > organizational connection between this and the Theosophical Society that | > > was founded by Blavatsky, Olcott, Judge and others in 1875. | > > | > > jhe | > > | > Very interesting! Another bit of information that I'm glad to | > have. | > | > Do you happen to know where "The Theosophical Society" was | > organized? Was it here in the US, was it in the UK? | > | > Thanks so much. | > | > ... nfx v3.1 jeff.needle@general.com | > | > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com | > | > Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and | > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of | > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. | | | | | -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com | | Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and | teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of | "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:58:10 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1471 Message-ID: <199803211900.LAA19492@nwc.net> March 21, 1998 Spring ! Dear Bodhijack: Wisdom is a discriminative application of knowledge -- by definition it ought to imply a complete and total knowledge of all the links of karma that relate to any entity, being or action to be performed with or for THAT being/entity. So it sounds terribly complex to our embodied brain-mind. But for those who are "Masters of Wisdom" it consists in their ability to see in the Akasa (the 7th aspect of the 'astral light') all those links, and "read" there the unfolding karma of the being concerned, and, the potential effect of any proposed influence that may be offered to it. The basic tenets of the "Wisdom-Religion" start with the UNITY of all beings -- the concept being that the duality of SPIRIT/MATTER emerge periodically from an ever-present and indescribably "background" which for lack of a better term is designated the "ABSOLUTE." Karma, the great LAW OF ENDLESS CYCLES, which involves the greatest of Universes and the most minute component of the atom, causes the periodic emanation of evolving worlds and their periodical withdrawal into a "sleeping," or a 'resting," phase of their living. It is also presumed that all this enormous agglomeration of being of various kinds and of many degrees of intelligence are themselves immortals. they do not die, but serve, each in its own place as a repository for the experiences that it has gone through. the Akasa was mentioned earlier. Each of these is part of and contributes its share of experience to that aspect of the WHOLE. Electro-magnetic bonds of sympathy are presumed to link every such being or component to everyone ELSE. Hence any thought, feeling, or act, affects the rest. The aim of those BEINGS who have not reached the man-stage is to attain self-consciousness (mind). The aim of those who HAVE become mind-beings (humanity) is said to become UNIVERSALLY MINDED. To achieve this selflessness, compassion, strict adherence to universal and impersonal ethics and a continual and careful regard for the rights and privileges of others are regarded as the mans that mankind as units can employ to become wiser than they are at present. There are many more "tenets" that can be derived from these, as basics, but this is the framework as I understand it, that can be verified each one for himself. No gifts or privileges can be secured by anyone who does not make the effort to obtain them for themselves by their own unassisted, individual work. The whole of Nature, being assured of such individual harmlessness then opens its secrets to such an individual, it being assured that such knowledge will never be mis-applied. In other words, each becomes his own initiator, assisted by the good will of every other being, high or low in the Universe. Admittedly, this is idealism and altruism raised to its highest pitch, and when focussed in an individual you have the example of a Buddha, a Christ, a Krishna, a Gandhi, a Plato, a Pythagoras, ... all those truly great figures of history whose words and example have been handed down to us as examples of excellence. Since "religion" means "to bind together," from 'religiere' -- the "wisdom-religion" would bind all together through fact as well as logic. No department of nature or of knowledge or of research would be excluded. It is entirely eclectic, non-sectarian, non-dogmatic, non-political and universal in scope, encouraging therefore as a basic tenet BROTHERHOOD. I hope this may be of additional help, Dallas =========================================== | From: theos-l@vnet.net | To: Multiple recipients of list | Subject: THEOS-L digest 1471 | Date: Saturday, March 21, 1998 5:56 AM | snip | | | Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:10:24 -0800 | From: "Dallas TenBroeck" | SNIP | | Theosophy: Theos = Deity; sophia = wisdom -- hence divine wisdom | | -- the record down the ages of discovery by delving into the | motivational side of Nature in all its departments. | | Theosophy is that ocean of knowledge which spreads from shore to | shore of the evolution of sentient beings; unfathomable in its | deepest parts, it gives the greatest minds their fullest scope, yet, | shallow enough at its shores it will not overwhelm the understanding | of a child. | [ See SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp 272-3, also OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY ] | | | Wisdom-Religion: | | Knowledge and information about all departments and laws of Nature | which by its inherent nature draws all beings together into a Unit. | The separation of individual consciousness and intelligence is only | apparent, as in fact the laws of cooperative existence and | interaction on the planes of sympathy, Electro-magnetism united each | individual atom or person to every other. Nature is the 'church;' | all beings of whatever degree are the 'paritioners.' | | | Theosophia: Wisdom-religion, "Divine wisdom." The substratum and | basis of all the world religions and philosophies, taught and | practiced by a few elect ever since man became a thinking being. In | its practice Theosophy is purely divine ethics. | | | Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:56:53 EST | From: Bodhijack | To: theos-l@vnet.net | Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1468 | Message-ID: <4599062d.351291c7@aol.com> | | in answer to my question,bart wrote,"wisdom religion is a theoretical basic | true religion that is behind all other religions." i thank bart for the | answer. can anyone elaborate on that? does the "wisdom religion" contain | any tenets? is the "oneness" of all things a given according to the wisdom | religion? | | From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:54:36 EST From: ZZZLEEPER Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1468 Message-ID: <6d92f02a.35141aff@aol.com> Thoa, I am in a helping profession and also find myself drained in helping situations. It seems the more intense the encounter(s), the more re-energizing time I need. Recently, I experienced such an intense encounter that, although the outcome was positive for the participants, it seems to have knocked out part of my immune system and I was down with a nasty cold for a few days. Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:20:46 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1471 Message-ID: <3514595E.9B346989@sprynet.com> Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Wisdom is a discriminative application of knowledge -- > > by definition it ought to imply a complete and total knowledge of all > the links of karma that relate to any entity, being or action to be > performed with or for THAT being/entity. So it sounds terribly > complex to our embodied brain-mind. But for those who are "Masters > of Wisdom" it consists in their ability to see in the Akasa (the 7th > aspect of the 'astral light') all those links, and "read" there the > unfolding karma of the being concerned, and, the potential effect of > any proposed influence that may be offered to it. According to your beliefs. Especially in Theosophy, it is important to properly label beliefs and facts, even if (especially if?) everybody in the group shares the same beliefs. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:10:24 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1468 Message-ID: <199803201512.HAA14993@nwc.net> March 20th Theosophy: Theos = Deity; sophia = wisdom -- hence divine wisdom -- the record down the ages of discovery by delving into the motivational side of Nature in all its departments. Theosophy is that ocean of knowledge which spreads from shore to shore of the evolution of sentient beings; unfathomable in its deepest parts, it gives the greatest minds their fullest scope, yet, shallow enough at its shores it will not overwhelm the understanding of a child. [ See SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp 272-3, also OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY ] Wisdom-Religion: Knowledge and information about all departments and laws of Nature which by its inherent nature draws all beings together into a Unit. The separation of individual consciousness and intelligence is only apparent, as in fact the laws of cooperative existence and interaction on the planes of sympathy, Electro-magnetism united each individual atom or person to every other. Nature is the 'church;' all beings of whatever degree are the 'paritioners.' Theosophia: Wisdom-religion, "Divine wisdom." The substratum and basis of all the world religions and philosophies, taught and practiced by a few elect ever since man became a thinking being. In its practice Theosophy is purely divine ethics. I hope this will help Dallas ======================================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:56:53 EST From: Bodhijack Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1468 Message-ID: <4599062d.351291c7@aol.com> in answer to my question,bart wrote,"wisdom religion is a theoretical basic true religion that is behind all other religions." i thank bart for the answer. can anyone elaborate on that? does the "wisdom religion" contain any tenets? is the "oneness" of all things a given according to the wisdom religion? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:17:31 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Channeling Tiwtin Message-ID: <3511613B.348292F9@sprynet.com> I wrote this about 8 years ago, or so, as an answer to a lot of the channeled messages I was seeing popping around. I hope you all enjoy... "NOTE THAT TIWTIN BE I, I BE TIWTIN. NOT CONFUSE ME WITH DO WITH OTHERS CLAIMING CREATORS TO BE. THEY ARE NOT, I AM, OR, MORE PROPERLY, THEY NOT ARE, ARE NOT THEY ME AM. FOR IN THE FIFTH AGE FOLLOWING THE SIXTH PERIOD FOLLOWING THE SEVENTH INNING STRETCH THAT WAS, THE BEINGS FROM THE UPPER LOWER SIRIUS SECTOR, WHICH IS HIGHER THAN THE LOWER LOWER SECTOR, YET LOWER THAN THE LOWER UPPER SECTOR, DID VISIT EARTH AND PLANT THEIR SEEDLINGS, AND THE SEEDLINGS DID GROW. IN AN UNFORTUNATE HAPPENSTANCE, SOME EARTH PEOPLE BETWEEN CHILD AND ADULT FROM THE PLACE CALLED BERKELY FOUND THE RESULTANT PLANTS, SMOKED THEM, AND HAVE NOT SINCE HEARD FROM BEEN. SO FORGET THE SIRIANS, LET US. FOR THE TRUTH IS THAT THE TRUTH SHOULD BE KNOWN, AND THAT NOT A LIE, IS NOT, FOR IT IS TRUTH. THE TRUTH THROUGHOUT THE LAND SHALL BE SPREAD, UNLESS IT IS NOT, IN WHICH CASE NOT THE TRUTH SHALL BE SPREAD, FOR IT IS TRUTH THAT IT TASTES JUST LIKE THE EXPENSIVE SPREAD, AND MAKES ONE FEEL LIKE A KING. BUT LET US NOT IMPERIL OURSELVES WITH THIS INFORMATION, FOR IT IS TRULY A SECRET. IT IS JUST THE NATTERING OF MOTHERS, AND IT IS NOT NICE TO FOOL WITH MOTHERS' NATTER. PROMISE. REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PLANET MARS. IT WAS ONCE ALIVE, BUT IS NOW DEAD, EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO WERE BARRED FROM LEAVING, AMEN. SO REMEMBER THE MARS, AMEN, BARRED, WHO DID NOT LEAVE FOR THE MILKY WAY, AMONG THE SNICKERS OF THEIR COMPATRIOTS, FOR THEY ALL FOUND, AMEN, JOY, AMONG THE MOUNDS OF THEIR NESTLED CRUNCH, AND FROM THEM CAME THE GREAT GOD, CHOCLTAN, ALSO AVAILABLE IN SUGAR FREE. FOR IT WAS SPAKE BY THE GODDESS, LUCEE, WHO WISHED TO BE UNITED WITH THE GOD, CHAO, USING WAREEKEE AS AN INTERMEDIARY, "WAREEKEE, WHY CAN'T I BE IN THE CHAO?" TO WHICH REPLIED WAREEKEE, "NO LUCEE YOU CANNOT BE IN THE CHAO!". TIWTIN AM I, AM I TIWTIN? YES, AM I, I AM, AND I AM WHAT I AM AND THAT'S ALL WHAT I AM, ARF, ARF, ARF, FOREVER AND EVER." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:13:16 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Channeling Tiwtin Message-ID: Questioner: Indeed. ARF, ARF, ARF. TRAB, I ERAD UOY OT TSOP RUOY YASSE NO KLAT-SOEHT!!! AMEN!!! > I wrote this about 8 years ago, or so, as an answer to a lot of the >channeled messages I was seeing popping around. I hope you all enjoy... > > "NOTE THAT TIWTIN BE I, I BE TIWTIN. NOT CONFUSE ME WITH DO WITH >OTHERS CLAIMING CREATORS TO BE. THEY ARE NOT, I AM, OR, MORE PROPERLY, >THEY NOT ARE, ARE NOT THEY ME AM. > > FOR IN THE FIFTH AGE FOLLOWING THE SIXTH PERIOD FOLLOWING THE >SEVENTH INNING STRETCH THAT WAS, THE BEINGS FROM THE UPPER LOWER SIRIUS >SECTOR, WHICH IS HIGHER THAN THE LOWER LOWER SECTOR, YET LOWER THAN THE >LOWER UPPER SECTOR, DID VISIT EARTH AND PLANT THEIR SEEDLINGS, AND THE >SEEDLINGS DID GROW. IN AN UNFORTUNATE HAPPENSTANCE, SOME EARTH PEOPLE >BETWEEN CHILD AND ADULT FROM THE PLACE CALLED BERKELY FOUND THE >RESULTANT PLANTS, SMOKED THEM, AND HAVE NOT SINCE HEARD FROM BEEN. SO >FORGET THE SIRIANS, LET US. > > FOR THE TRUTH IS THAT THE TRUTH SHOULD BE KNOWN, AND THAT NOT A LIE, >IS NOT, FOR IT IS TRUTH. THE TRUTH THROUGHOUT THE LAND SHALL BE SPREAD, >UNLESS IT IS NOT, IN WHICH CASE NOT THE TRUTH SHALL BE SPREAD, FOR IT IS >TRUTH THAT IT TASTES JUST LIKE THE EXPENSIVE SPREAD, AND MAKES ONE FEEL >LIKE A KING. BUT LET US NOT IMPERIL OURSELVES WITH THIS INFORMATION, >FOR IT IS TRULY A SECRET. IT IS JUST THE NATTERING OF MOTHERS, AND IT >IS NOT NICE TO FOOL WITH MOTHERS' NATTER. PROMISE. > > REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PLANET MARS. IT WAS ONCE ALIVE, BUT >IS NOW DEAD, EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO WERE BARRED FROM LEAVING, AMEN. SO >REMEMBER THE MARS, AMEN, BARRED, WHO DID NOT LEAVE FOR THE MILKY WAY, >AMONG THE SNICKERS OF THEIR COMPATRIOTS, FOR THEY ALL FOUND, AMEN, JOY, >AMONG THE MOUNDS OF THEIR NESTLED CRUNCH, AND FROM THEM CAME THE GREAT >GOD, CHOCLTAN, ALSO AVAILABLE IN SUGAR FREE. > > FOR IT WAS SPAKE BY THE GODDESS, LUCEE, WHO WISHED TO BE UNITED WITH >THE GOD, CHAO, USING WAREEKEE AS AN INTERMEDIARY, "WAREEKEE, WHY CAN'T I >BE IN THE CHAO?" TO WHICH REPLIED WAREEKEE, "NO LUCEE YOU CANNOT BE IN >THE CHAO!". > > TIWTIN AM I, AM I TIWTIN? YES, AM I, I AM, AND I AM WHAT I AM AND >THAT'S ALL WHAT I AM, ARF, ARF, ARF, FOREVER AND EVER." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:22:01 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Channeling Tiwtin Message-ID: <35118C79.27B93F02@sprynet.com> Thoa Tran wrote: > Questioner: Indeed. ARF, ARF, ARF. TRAB, I ERAD UOY OT TSOP RUOY YASSE NO > KLAT-SOEHT!!! AMEN!!! I'm thinking about it. BTW, there IS a sequel... Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 00:24:31 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Channeling Tiwtin Message-ID: <70LvEOA$cbE1Ew48@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , Thoa Tran quotes: >I AM, ARF, ARF, ARF, FOREVER AND EVER That makes one and an arf, = 1.5 Alan :- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:11:55 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Service and Exhaustion Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980319172411.1caf5c74@mail.iprolink.co.nz> >Murray: >>Finally, I believe that seeking to be of service is the best way for >>spiritual growth to occur, provided any desire to acquire additional power >>is wholly enveloped within and aligned towards that goal. > >I understand the ability to place oneself in another person's shoe. I'm >able to do that in ways that is more like empathy and connection. Mmmmmm - sounds good. I once heard somebody describe what they did as "listening with love" - a gentle technique that has a lot of healing value and sounds within the reach of most of us. What you're doing probably has an ingredient of that, consciously or unconsciously. >The >problem that I encountered was that I expend too much energy when placing >myself in service of others. Whenever I put myself out to people, the >response was very positive, and I've gotten compliments on how well I >interact. However, after a period of contact with person(s), I am mentally >and emotionally exhausted and need to cut off all contact with people. >Does anyone else encounter this problem? How can you consistently be kind, >warm, giving and enthusiastic to people without losing your center? I need >a period of silence, selfishness and grumpiness just to balance myself. Ah, yes :-) A familiar pattern. I think people who give a lot this way *need* to be alone and recharge inwardly, by whatever method works for them, be it going on a nature walk, listening to some beautiful music, painting something, meditating etc etc. And to give themselves space to be grumpy and then more space for the waves and vortices in their energy system to subside and the tendrils of consciousness to withdraw from the tangled alveoli of thought and feeling, so to speak. A mixed medical metaphor, but the idea is like the breath withdrawing from the many little pockets in the lungs to recombine into one stream. One method that works for me is a kind of light-seeking, centre-seeking meditation that begins with a complete-as-possible relaxation of body and mind. Sometimes, the right kind of music does it, but oddly I don't usually like music going at the same time as meditating. Sometimes a spiritually-recharging, soul-contacting conversation with another person does it, where we discover an inner resonance and share in a way that leaves both feeling inwardly fed and glowing. That last one sounds a little odd - to recover from being with people by having the right kind of exchange with another person - but I find it works. Sometimes a good theosophical meeting - even an e-mail exchange - can lead to this effect. In fact, it wouldn't be a bad idea for theosophical groups to make it a goal for *all* their meetings and dialogs to leave people feeling recharged and all lit up, having delighted in each other's presence. Even had fun! IT IS POSSIBLE - I know. It happened in my "Karma Drama" study course evening last week. And there was a lot of it at the NZ TS Convention early this year. I think that further along the evolutionary track, there are those who know how to keep their centre, probably because the connection to it is so wide and clear, and the centre of gravity of their consciousness is so much more into the realm of light, while doing all sorts of arduous things under difficult circumstances. The energy just seems to flood through them. But even they, I think, need time to be reflective and attune inwardly. Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:36:32 -0600 From: senzar@stic.net Subject: Re: Secret Doctrine Symposium Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980318233632.007c4100@mail.stic.net> >Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:32:20 -0600 >From: M K Ramadoss >Reply-To: ramadoss@eden.com >Organization: NA >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) >To: AStrycker >CC: theos-talk@theosophy.com, ti-l@vnet.net, theos-news@vnet.net, > senzar@stic.net >Subject: Re: Secret Doctrine Symposium > >Thanks. I am posting this on theos-l, ti-l, theos-news, theos-talk. > >We will be looking forward to posts from you. If I can be of any help, >let me know. > >mkr >============================= >AStrycker wrote: >> >> The internet is tailor made for meetings like this. I will do what I can >> to make it available this way. Thanks for your help as well. >> >> Arden >> >> >Thanks for your prompt feedback. I also forwarded a msg from a Theosophist >> >in Mexico inquiring if the material wouldbe made available on Internet. >> Any >> >thoughts on this? >> > >> >mkr >> > >> > >> >At 09:07 PM 3/17/1998 -0500, you wrote: >> >>>Hi, Thanks for e-mailing the newsletter. I have just posted it on >> theos-l, >> >>>theos-news, ti-l and theos-talk newsletters. >> >>> >> >>>Just out of curiosity, who are the persons who are reviewing the >> >>presenters >> >>>materials and who is presiding over the symposium? >> >>> >> >>>mkr >> >>> >> >> >> >>Nancy Blott, President, is probably presiding over the symposium--if I >> >>understand your question correctly. She and I reviewed the proposed >> >>papers. However, the criteria for paper selection is the same as the >> >>previous Secret Doctrine Symposia. Nancy is collecting several other >> people >> >>to review the papers that will be submitted prior to the Symposium. I'm >> >>not sure who they are, yet. >> >> >> >>Arden From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:32:20 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Secret Doctrine Symposium Message-ID: <3510ADE4.287B@eden.com> Thanks. I am posting this on theos-l, ti-l, theos-news, theos-talk. We will be looking forward to posts from you. If I can be of any help, let me know. mkr ============================= AStrycker wrote: > > The internet is tailor made for meetings like this. I will do what I can > to make it available this way. Thanks for your help as well. > > Arden > > >Thanks for your prompt feedback. I also forwarded a msg from a Theosophist > >in Mexico inquiring if the material wouldbe made available on Internet. > Any > >thoughts on this? > > > >mkr > > > > > >At 09:07 PM 3/17/1998 -0500, you wrote: > >>>Hi, Thanks for e-mailing the newsletter. I have just posted it on > theos-l, > >>>theos-news, ti-l and theos-talk newsletters. > >>> > >>>Just out of curiosity, who are the persons who are reviewing the > >>presenters > >>>materials and who is presiding over the symposium? > >>> > >>>mkr > >>> > >> > >>Nancy Blott, President, is probably presiding over the symposium--if I > >>understand your question correctly. She and I reviewed the proposed > >>papers. However, the criteria for paper selection is the same as the > >>previous Secret Doctrine Symposia. Nancy is collecting several other > people > >>to review the papers that will be submitted prior to the Symposium. I'm > >>not sure who they are, yet. > >> > >>Arden From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:16:13 EST From: Bodhijack Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1467 Message-ID: <109b581a.350ea1cf@aol.com> can anyone offer a definition of 1) theosophy 2) wisdom-religion ? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:44:55 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1467 Message-ID: <350EC4A7.F7F6953F@sprynet.com> Bodhijack wrote: > can anyone offer a definition of 1) theosophy 2) wisdom-religion ? Theosophy is the study and speculation of the basis and purpose of the universe. Wisdom religion is a theoretical basic true religion that is behind all other religions. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:10:23 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: More about that subject Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980318152239.1d1f0d3c@mail.iprolink.co.nz> Bart and Estrella I think we need to be more specific about what siddhis we're talking about, and why one would use them, before we metaphorically sweep them all off the desk into the trash can. Take for example the ability to immerse one's awareness in another being, to experience what it is like to be that being. The value or the danger of this siddhi depends very much on why it is being used, on the quality of the underlying intentions. If it were used to pry into other people's lives and use the information gained that way to write magazine articles for large sums of money to be spent selfishly, then that would clearly be unwise and potentially harmful. If on the other hand it were used by a counsellor or healer to understand more deeply why someone is suffering and then wisely help them or maybe just offer some truly healing words and the sense that they are not alone, that is clearly a very different transaction. Sure, there are lots of weird and silly siddhis we hear about, like being able to see through your ears etc, that some people spend huge amounts of time trying to develop. There might be something admirable about the perseverance that this takes, and the demonstration that we can develop in all sorts of ways, but the needs of this world cry out far more pressingly for assistance by methods that offer a greater return for the time and energy invested, in my opinion. There are also the well-known (to theosophical people) traps for the person who is drawn to the idea of gaining unusual powers. The question, as always, is what is the target of their desires and aspirations? What do they want to achieve, and why? I think it helps to remember that Consciousness and Energy inevitably go together; where there is a movement of consciousness, there is a release or flow of energy at some level or another. They have been interlocked from the time of the very emergence of the universe. The classical siddhis are simply examples of powers that are at present beyond most people, that have caught our attention because they seem so dramatic. But there are countless numbers of ways that we mobilise and direct energy in everyday life, all of them coming under the category of consciousness interacting with energy, all being ways that intention leads to action on the different planes. Isn't this the prime generator of karma? And isn't it true that one of the great lessons we are learning in the whole field of evolution is how to wield power wisely and lovingly? I do not think that siddhis are necessarily easy to get. Some people are born with certain abilities, but to be really useful as tools of service and ways of furthering humanity's situation, they still seem to need hard work to make them effective and reliable. There's no easy ride, here. Finally, I believe that seeking to be of service is the best way for spiritual growth to occur, provided any desire to acquire additional power is wholly enveloped within and aligned towards that goal. Furthermore, I suspect that seeking to be of service is a great pathway on which to approach the inner Teacher, but that's another topic. With best wishes to you both. Murray >> Virtually all the literature considers siddhi's to be "spiritual dead >> ends". They may be useful, but they do not lead to spiritual growth, at >> least not directly (check out Blavatsky's cautionary tale, "An Enchanted >> Life", located in NIGHTMARE TALES, and also somewhere in the COLLECTED >> WRITINGS, for an example). >> >> Bart Lidofsky > >AHHHHHH.....I taught you didn'nt understood me,Bart. >You are right! >I believe siddhis (Paranormal faculties) are like "cooking recipes" in >esoteric and spiritual books like some theosophy authors write about >them, and sometimes in how they work.For me, is no big deal to develop >them, so i see them very easy to get them. The thing is, as i put in the >other post, if we are "allowed to do it" speccialy pepole, as my friend, >who wants to persuade very far away, in that "narrow and golden path" >The temptations, thus, are that, the "can i??" >Estrella >P.S. I get your point in what you mean in A.C. i think he taught was the >correct way. anyway, the route he (In his personal life) Demostrated >that truth, was incorrect.you know. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:32:19 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: The same (part 2) Message-ID: <350EEBE3.76CF@usa.net> > I ASK YOU PEPOLE, VERSED > > PEPOLE,WISER THAN ME IN MANY WAYS, CAN YOU ANSWER??? > > Am I wiser than you in the right ways, or are those the ways in which > you are wiser than I? > I could'nt finish last night.I was in a hurry. I am sure of one thing,Bart: I know that i don't know.I am only sure that i know a 1% than the pepole imediatly next to me. This learning is in an spiral....different steps of the spiral ladder. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:12:07 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1467 Message-ID: <199803172214.OAA05880@nwc.net> March 17th 1998 Dear Estrella and Bart: I was concerned with the question of "siddhis". HPB calls them "attributes of perfection" or phenomenal powers acquired through holiness by Yogis -- SIDDHAS are defined as saints and sages who have become almost divine. They are also a class of Dhyan Chohans. Even in Hatha Yoga -- physical practices -- there is a posture listed as siddh-asana. But it gets no one anything. as no physical or purely selfish desire ever gets anyone any true "powers." The logic is plain. It is given throughout the VOICE OF THE SILENCE. Do you have a copy ? HPB is quite explicit that those "powers" can never be obtained by anyone for selfish reasons. The Hatha Yogis ( she gives examples of their powers in ISIS in several places ) are strictly limited to such powers as come from physical asceticism. True Raja Yoga is an asceticism of the mind and a control of the passions and desires. curiosity and ambition do not provide any clue to real powers and those can only be entrusted to those who are disinterested. But this will probably be at great variance with some of the teachings that are popular and current abroad, and which may have attracted you. I am saying this bluntly, and HPB Theosophy has always said this. It is not dogmatism, nor is it fundamentalism to state facts. Theosophy speaks in so many places of these FACTS. Are we going to be displeased with the laws of mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy, etc... simply because it takes a long time to acquire an understanding of them ? Well if that is a barrier and we want things in a hurry, we simply won't become proficient in them. And, in occultism, no one can become proficient in true magic (which is WISDOM) BY DESIRING TO USE IT SELFISHLY EVEN TO THE SMALLEST EXTENT. Do check me out on this, as I am only summarizing everything that I have ever read on the subject. Best wishes, Dallas | From: theos-l@vnet.net | To: Multiple recipients of list | Subject: THEOS-L digest 1467 | Date: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 5:40 AM | | THEOS-L Digest 1467 | | Topics covered in this issue include: | | 1) More about that subject | by Estrella | | | | Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:52:28 -0800 | From: Estrella | To: theos-l@vnet.net | Subject: More about that subject | Message-ID: <350E018C.43E@usa.net> | | > Virtually all the literature considers siddhi's to be "spiritual dead | > ends". They may be useful, but they do not lead to spiritual growth, at | > least not directly (check out Blavatsky's cautionary tale, "An Enchanted | > Life", located in NIGHTMARE TALES, and also somewhere in the COLLECTED | > WRITINGS, for an example). | > | > Bart Lidofsky | | AHHHHHH.....I taught you didn'nt understood me,Bart. | You are right! | I believe siddhis (Paranormal faculties) are like "cooking recipes" in | esoteric and spiritual books like some theosophy authors write about | them, and sometimes in how they work.For me, is no big deal to develop | them, so i see them very easy to get them. The thing is, as i put in the | other post, if we are "allowed to do it" speccialy pepole, as my friend, | who wants to persuade very far away, in that "narrow and golden path" | The temptations, thus, are that, the "can i??" | Estrella | P.S. I get your point in what you mean in A.C. i think he taught was the | correct way. anyway, the route he (In his personal life) Demostrated | that truth, was incorrect.you know. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:14:07 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Service and Exhaustion Message-ID: Murray: >Finally, I believe that seeking to be of service is the best way for >spiritual growth to occur, provided any desire to acquire additional power >is wholly enveloped within and aligned towards that goal. Furthermore, I >suspect that seeking to be of service is a great pathway on which to >approach the inner Teacher, but that's another topic. I understand the ability to place oneself in another person's shoe. I'm able to do that in ways that is more like empathy and connection. The problem that I encountered was that I expend too much energy when placing myself in service of others. Whenever I put myself out to people, the response was very positive, and I've gotten compliments on how well I interact. However, after a period of contact with person(s), I am mentally and emotionally exhausted and need to cut off all contact with people. Does anyone else encounter this problem? How can you consistently be kind, warm, giving and enthusiastic to people without losing your center? I need a period of silence, selfishness and grumpiness just to balance myself. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:41:02 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: "The" manifesto Message-ID: <350EFBFE.616@usa.net> (Laziness to put all text) :P~ Doss, i think i read that Farthing manifesto' before....but i don't remember where.maybe in theos-l or in other list. maybe in internet. Yep, the guy (Farthing) Has some points to his favor, but in others, like the dogmatism and sectarism, i agree with Paul Johnson.Although i do not agree with him in everything. In the CWL-Bessant matter, i say what Voltaire said "I may be not agree what you say, but defend to death your right to say it" Yep. Estrella P.S. I think the most important thing in that big text, is the short resume in what society was, is , where is going, and what effort can be to save it from the different problems it has. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:54:32 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1467 Message-ID: <350F2958.BA053B59@sprynet.com> Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Dear Estrella and Bart: .. > > > But this will probably be at great variance with some of the > teachings that are popular and current abroad, and which may have > attracted you. I am saying this bluntly, and HPB Theosophy has > always said this. It is not dogmatism, nor is it fundamentalism to > state facts. Theosophy speaks in so many places of these FACTS. > > Are we going to be displeased with the laws of mathematics, physics, > chemistry, astronomy, etc... simply because it takes a long time to > acquire an understanding of them ? Well if that is a barrier and we > want things in a hurry, we simply won't become proficient in them. > And, in occultism, no one can become proficient in true magic (which > is WISDOM) BY DESIRING TO USE IT SELFISHLY EVEN TO THE SMALLEST > EXTENT. I believe that you have not contradicted anything I have said. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:27:30 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Service and Exhaustion Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >How can you consistently be kind, >warm, giving and enthusiastic to people without losing your center? With great difficulty! you need also: >a period of silence, selfishness and grumpiness just to balance myself. Alan :-) THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:22:10 -0600 From: senzar@stic.net Subject: SD Symposium Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980317212210.007c4300@mail.stic.net> If the files are available in a word processing format, they can be easily posted on the Internet. Thus the proceedings will be accessible to overseas people at no cost to them. This would be very appreciated by those from the former East European countries. I am posting this to theos-l, theos-talk, ti-l and theos-news for information. mkr At 09:07 PM 3/17/1998 -0500, you wrote: >I am taking names and addresses for those interested in copies of the >Symposium Proceedings, even if they are not able to attend the conference. >The cost for the proceedings has not yet been determined, but should not be >too much. > >Arden Strycker, Secretary >Midwest Federation of TSA >astrycker@compuserve.com > >>Hi, Esterlla: >> >>I will forward your msg to the contact point for the conference. I am sure >>it should be possible. Let us see. >> >> >>At 03:22 PM 3/17/1998 -0800, you wrote: >>>M K Ramadoss wrote: >>>> >>>> Here is the newsletter I just received. I am posting for info of >everyone >>>> interested. >>>> >>>> MKR >>>> =============================== >>>> >>>> Secret Doctrine Symposium III Newsletter >>>> >>>> sponsored by >>>> >>>> Midwest Federation >>>> 100 SE 9th, Suite 902 >>>> Topeka, KS 66612 >>>> >>>> Phone 785-235-2801 >>>> >>>> astrycker@compuserve.com >>>> >>>> March 7, 1998 >>>> >>>> Greetings S.D. Students!!! >>>> >>>Thanks,Doss. Although i'm not going to the congress, is it possible a >>>way to read the symposium memoirs (Respecting the international pepole >>>conferences??? >>>Estrella >>>> >>>> Responses from our international friends: >>>> >>>> Gorbonos Yuri, Ukraine, >>>> "Theosophical Discipleship in Russia" >>>> "Cosmic and Human Consciousness" >>>> >>>> Reinout Spaink, Netherlands, >>>> TBD >>>> >>>> M. Chon-ton Phan, France, >>>> "The Human Stage" >>>> >>>> Rudi Jansma, Netherlands, >>>> "On Theosophy and Science" from the perspective of a biologist >>>> >>>> The papers submitted are still being reviewed by the Committee. We >have >>>> adopted the same review criteria as outlined in the first S.D. >Symposium. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:28:28 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: SD Symposium Newsletter Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980317202828.008479d0@mail.eden.com> If the files are available in a word processing format, they can be easily posted on the Internet. Thus the proceedings will be accessible to overseas people at no cost to them. This would be very appreciated by those from the former East European countries. I am posting this to theos-l, theos-talk, ti-l and theos-news for information. mkr At 09:07 PM 3/17/1998 -0500, you wrote: >I am taking names and addresses for those interested in copies of the >Symposium Proceedings, even if they are not able to attend the conference. >The cost for the proceedings has not yet been determined, but should not be >too much. > >Arden Strycker, Secretary >Midwest Federation of TSA >astrycker@compuserve.com > >>Hi, Esterlla: >> >>I will forward your msg to the contact point for the conference. I am sure >>it should be possible. Let us see. >> >> >>At 03:22 PM 3/17/1998 -0800, you wrote: >>>M K Ramadoss wrote: >>>> >>>> Here is the newsletter I just received. I am posting for info of >everyone >>>> interested. >>>> >>>> MKR >>>> =============================== >>>> >>>> Secret Doctrine Symposium III Newsletter >>>> >>>> sponsored by >>>> >>>> Midwest Federation >>>> 100 SE 9th, Suite 902 >>>> Topeka, KS 66612 >>>> >>>> Phone 785-235-2801 >>>> >>>> astrycker@compuserve.com >>>> >>>> March 7, 1998 >>>> >>>> Greetings S.D. Students!!! >>>> >>>Thanks,Doss. Although i'm not going to the congress, is it possible a >>>way to read the symposium memoirs (Respecting the international pepole >>>conferences??? >>>Estrella >>>> >>>> Responses from our international friends: >>>> >>>> Gorbonos Yuri, Ukraine, >>>> "Theosophical Discipleship in Russia" >>>> "Cosmic and Human Consciousness" >>>> >>>> Reinout Spaink, Netherlands, >>>> TBD >>>> >>>> M. Chon-ton Phan, France, >>>> "The Human Stage" >>>> >>>> Rudi Jansma, Netherlands, >>>> "On Theosophy and Science" from the perspective of a biologist >>>> >>>> The papers submitted are still being reviewed by the Committee. We >have >>>> adopted the same review criteria as outlined in the first S.D. >Symposium. >>>> >>> >>>-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com >>> >>>Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >>>teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >>>"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:52:28 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: More about that subject Message-ID: <350E018C.43E@usa.net> > Virtually all the literature considers siddhi's to be "spiritual dead > ends". They may be useful, but they do not lead to spiritual growth, at > least not directly (check out Blavatsky's cautionary tale, "An Enchanted > Life", located in NIGHTMARE TALES, and also somewhere in the COLLECTED > WRITINGS, for an example). > > Bart Lidofsky AHHHHHH.....I taught you didn'nt understood me,Bart. You are right! I believe siddhis (Paranormal faculties) are like "cooking recipes" in esoteric and spiritual books like some theosophy authors write about them, and sometimes in how they work.For me, is no big deal to develop them, so i see them very easy to get them. The thing is, as i put in the other post, if we are "allowed to do it" speccialy pepole, as my friend, who wants to persuade very far away, in that "narrow and golden path" The temptations, thus, are that, the "can i??" Estrella P.S. I get your point in what you mean in A.C. i think he taught was the correct way. anyway, the route he (In his personal life) Demostrated that truth, was incorrect.you know. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:44:42 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: SD Symposium Newsletter Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980315224442.00cbf910@mail.eden.com> Here is the newsletter I just received. I am posting for info of everyone interested. MKR =============================== Secret Doctrine Symposium III Newsletter sponsored by Midwest Federation 100 SE 9th, Suite 902 Topeka, KS 66612 Phone 785-235-2801 astrycker@compuserve.com March 7, 1998 Greetings S.D. Students!!! The three exclamations are for the third Secret Doctrine Symposium that is forthcoming, May 21 to 24 at Oklahoma City. During the last Christmas Season, we mailed an announcement and a Call for Papers for the Third Symposium on the Secret Doctrine. Approximately a thousand notices were sent out. The mailing list included all Members of the Midwest Federation, all TSA Branches and Study Centers, other TS organizations, and those serious students of the S.D. The responses were very encouraging. Those who responded gave their tentative titles for their papers. This was very much appreciated. And we are very thankful. Arden Strycker has designed a Web page for some of our hi-tech occult students. Here's the access: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/astrycker/ The Web is constantly updated, incorporating the latest development of the forthcoming Symposium. Also, the Web is linked to various theosophical groups throughout the world. Global consciousness, her we come. Oops! Rather, here we are! For those into E-mail, kindly see the above letterhead address. At this writing, here are some of the responses. The following have committed to present their papers at the Symposium: National speakers of TSA Wheaton . . . Richard Brooks, "The Meaning of Maya in the Secret Doctrine" "The Secret Doctrine and Chinese Philosophy" Anton Lysy, "The Secret Doctrine and Jungian Thought" "Neo-Platonism and the Secret Doctrine" Doss McDavid, "Hidden Hints in the Secret Doctrine" Shirley Nicholson (to be read), "H.P.B. as the Masters Saw Her" (based on the Secret Doctrine and Mahatma Letters) (still in review) Other Presenters . . . Anne Redlich, "Preparing to Study the Secret Doctrine" David Reigle, "Stanzas of Dzyan in the Secret Doctrine" "Sanskrit Terms in the Secret Doctrine" Ken Small, "Tibetan Buddhism and the Secret Doctrine" Jim Santucci, TBD Aryal Sanat, (still in review) "Transformation: Vital Essence of H.P.B.'s Secret Doctrine" Greg Jordan Finder, "H.P.B., Theosophy, the Secret Doctrine: How They Relate to the Rapid Evolvement of the Collective Human Consciousness in the 20th Century" Russ Nelson, "Jesus Christ and the Secret Doctrine" "Ether, Relativity and the Secret Doctrine" Also, anticipated papers from . . . Richard Robb Reinout Spaink Steven Patascher Mark Newbold Responses from our international friends: Gorbonos Yuri, Ukraine, "Theosophical Discipleship in Russia" "Cosmic and Human Consciousness" Reinout Spaink, Netherlands, TBD M. Chon-ton Phan, France, "The Human Stage" Rudi Jansma, Netherlands, "On Theosophy and Science" from the perspective of a biologist The papers submitted are still being reviewed by the Committee. We have adopted the same review criteria as outlined in the first S.D. Symposium. There will be a play presentation entitled, "A Visit to H.P.B.'s Parlor", written and directed by Myrliss Hershey, Prof. of Literature, Wichita, Kansas. Those who have seen this play are very impressed by its professional quality. The unanimous comment was, "It was just like being there during their time, H.P.B., Col. Olcott, Annie Besant, William Q. Judge, Countess Constance Wachmeister." Wait 'till you see their authentic Victorian fashion. The actors who could hardly be recognized in their costumes were all from the Midwest (Oklahoma and Kansas). Even if you think you can't come, still, you can try to think you just might make it, even at the last minute. Never underestimate the power of thinking positively. Volunteers are needed: * to handle book sales on some tables * airport escorts * hospitality * hosts, hostesses (part time) * ushers for guests, TS non-members, newcomers * to read papers for those who cannot personally attend * Wall posters production on S.D. themes Sponsorships and Patrons needed: * to help in printing * mail and mail supplies * ads and notices * scholarships, sponsorships for those deserving participants and invited speakers The place of our meeting is a nice secluded and quiet area with many convenient facilities. It used to be a former monastery. It is within easy driving distance from Oklahoma City. The Saint Francis de Sales Archdiocese Pastoral Center, located at 7501 Northwest Expressway, Oklahoma City, OK, is a favorite meeting place for various non-profit organizations, for retreats, meetings for religious clergy, for their nuns and other lay religious workers. Detailed information on registration and reservations will be forthcoming in the next mailing of the Program Announcement. Your ideas are certainly welcome. We try to think of everything. But it takes everybody to cover everything. Ideas do spark other ideas. Anyone can be a spark. After all we are all Sparks of the Divine. For those who are so electronically inclined, you may deposit your sparks at this E-mail address: astrycker@compuserve.com Or, if you also belong to a TS Branch or Lodge, it can always be of help to spread the word about this forthcoming S.D. Symposium. We wish to extend our appreciation and gratitude to all those who have assisted and encouraged us in this endeavor, especially to: Gilbert F. Cuadra Doss McDavid Anne Redlich Vonda Urbon who have already made donations to our sponsorship funds. We do look forward to seeing you all soon at this Symposium in Oklahoma City. Fraternal yours, Nancy Blott, President Midwest Federation, TSA P.S. Reminder to paper presenters, if you haven't already done so, kindly submit your biographical sketch along with a synopsis of your Symposium paper. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:28:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Edmonton TS Website Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980315132824.008413f0@mail.eden.com> The Edmonton Theosophical Society has set up a webpage which was done by one of the teen-age children of one of the members. You may want to visit it. See the following excerpt from a msg I received. It once again proves that where there is a will there is a way and money is not necessarily a critical factor in Internet. One off our members has a young teen, who has managed—with the help of our Editor— to start one up for us. That has been as far as we have gotten with the whole thing. It’s not as sophisticated as other sites but we are on the Web. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9530 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:38:54 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: SD Symposium Newsletter Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980315223854.00d82cc0@mail.eden.com> Here is the newsletter I just received. I am posting for info of everyone interested. MKR =============================== Secret Doctrine Symposium III Newsletter sponsored by Midwest Federation 100 SE 9th, Suite 902 Topeka, KS 66612 Phone 785-235-2801 astrycker@compuserve.com March 7, 1998 Greetings S.D. Students!!! The three exclamations are for the third Secret Doctrine Symposium that is forthcoming, May 21 to 24 at Oklahoma City. During the last Christmas Season, we mailed an announcement and a Call for Papers for the Third Symposium on the Secret Doctrine. Approximately a thousand notices were sent out. The mailing list included all Members of the Midwest Federation, all TSA Branches and Study Centers, other TS organizations, and those serious students of the S.D. The responses were very encouraging. Those who responded gave their tentative titles for their papers. This was very much appreciated. And we are very thankful. Arden Strycker has designed a Web page for some of our hi-tech occult students. Here's the access: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/astrycker/ The Web is constantly updated, incorporating the latest development of the forthcoming Symposium. Also, the Web is linked to various theosophical groups throughout the world. Global consciousness, her we come. Oops! Rather, here we are! For those into E-mail, kindly see the above letterhead address. At this writing, here are some of the responses. The following have committed to present their papers at the Symposium: National speakers of TSA Wheaton . . . Richard Brooks, "The Meaning of Maya in the Secret Doctrine" "The Secret Doctrine and Chinese Philosophy" Anton Lysy, "The Secret Doctrine and Jungian Thought" "Neo-Platonism and the Secret Doctrine" Doss McDavid, "Hidden Hints in the Secret Doctrine" Shirley Nicholson (to be read), "H.P.B. as the Masters Saw Her" (based on the Secret Doctrine and Mahatma Letters) (still in review) Other Presenters . . . Anne Redlich, "Preparing to Study the Secret Doctrine" David Reigle, "Stanzas of Dzyan in the Secret Doctrine" "Sanskrit Terms in the Secret Doctrine" Ken Small, "Tibetan Buddhism and the Secret Doctrine" Jim Santucci, TBD Aryal Sanat, (still in review) "Transformation: Vital Essence of H.P.B.'s Secret Doctrine" Greg Jordan Finder, "H.P.B., Theosophy, the Secret Doctrine: How They Relate to the Rapid Evolvement of the Collective Human Consciousness in the 20th Century" Russ Nelson, "Jesus Christ and the Secret Doctrine" "Ether, Relativity and the Secret Doctrine" Also, anticipated papers from . . . Richard Robb Reinout Spaink Steven Patascher Mark Newbold Responses from our international friends: Gorbonos Yuri, Ukraine, "Theosophical Discipleship in Russia" "Cosmic and Human Consciousness" Reinout Spaink, Netherlands, TBD M. Chon-ton Phan, France, "The Human Stage" Rudi Jansma, Netherlands, "On Theosophy and Science" from the perspective of a biologist The papers submitted are still being reviewed by the Committee. We have adopted the same review criteria as outlined in the first S.D. Symposium. There will be a play presentation entitled, "A Visit to H.P.B.'s Parlor", written and directed by Myrliss Hershey, Prof. of Literature, Wichita, Kansas. Those who have seen this play are very impressed by its professional quality. The unanimous comment was, "It was just like being there during their time, H.P.B., Col. Olcott, Annie Besant, William Q. Judge, Countess Constance Wachmeister." Wait 'till you see their authentic Victorian fashion. The actors who could hardly be recognized in their costumes were all from the Midwest (Oklahoma and Kansas). Even if you think you can't come, still, you can try to think you just might make it, even at the last minute. Never underestimate the power of thinking positively. Volunteers are needed: * to handle book sales on some tables * airport escorts * hospitality * hosts, hostesses (part time) * ushers for guests, TS non-members, newcomers * to read papers for those who cannot personally attend * Wall posters production on S.D. themes Sponsorships and Patrons needed: * to help in printing * mail and mail supplies * ads and notices * scholarships, sponsorships for those deserving participants and invited speakers The place of our meeting is a nice secluded and quiet area with many convenient facilities. It used to be a former monastery. It is within easy driving distance from Oklahoma City. The Saint Francis de Sales Archdiocese Pastoral Center, located at 7501 Northwest Expressway, Oklahoma City, OK, is a favorite meeting place for various non-profit organizations, for retreats, meetings for religious clergy, for their nuns and other lay religious workers. Detailed information on registration and reservations will be forthcoming in the next mailing of the Program Announcement. Your ideas are certainly welcome. We try to think of everything. But it takes everybody to cover everything. Ideas do spark other ideas. Anyone can be a spark. After all we are all Sparks of the Divine. For those who are so electronically inclined, you may deposit your sparks at this E-mail address: astrycker@compuserve.com Or, if you also belong to a TS Branch or Lodge, it can always be of help to spread the word about this forthcoming S.D. Symposium. We wish to extend our appreciation and gratitude to all those who have assisted and encouraged us in this endeavor, especially to: Gilbert F. Cuadra Doss McDavid Anne Redlich Vonda Urbon who have already made donations to our sponsorship funds. We do look forward to seeing you all soon at this Symposium in Oklahoma City. Fraternal yours, Nancy Blott, President Midwest Federation, TSA P.S. Reminder to paper presenters, if you haven't already done so, kindly submit your biographical sketch along with a synopsis of your Symposium paper. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:43:28 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1461 Message-ID: In message <01BD5072.2C999B40.u961309@student.canberra.edu. au>, Dieter Dambiec writes >If nature--earth, trees, and water--truly experience a form of >existential pain or grief, at least when destroyed and >polluted, our conservation efforts and our ecological outlook >must first and foremost acknowledge this innate suffering. And >by acknowledging it, nature becomes part of ourselves. My experience suggests this is true. While some people may think I am crazy, it is a fact that I was once importuned by a very sad horse- chestnut tree who had been totally surrounded by tarmac for a car park. All its seed fell on stony ground: Would I collect some and plant them in fertile soil. I did. Once I "heard" a cabbage scream when a bird came to peck at it. I have had many a similar eperience, mostly with two or four legged creatures, but there is no doubt in my mind that "All Life Is One" is as much a fearful reality as it is a joy. Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:28:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Edmonton TS Website Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980315132824.008413f0@mail.eden.com> The Edmonton Theosophical Society has set up a webpage which was done by one of the teen-age children of one of the members. You may want to visit it. See the following excerpt from a msg I received. It once again proves that where there is a will there is a way and money is not necessarily a critical factor in Internet. One off our members has a young teen, who has managed—with the help of our Editor— to start one up for us. That has been as far as we have gotten with the whole thing. It’s not as sophisticated as other sites but we are on the Web. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9530 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 19:30:26 -0500 From: Avatar Thyer Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1464 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980302193026.007a6400@freenet.grfn.org> please send me information about how to de-subscribe from this mailing list thanks in advance. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 21:38:09 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: to Paul & Bart: re Blavatsky & Bailey Message-ID: <350B3F10.4FDDF455@sprynet.com> jim meier wrote: > Negative comments on this list over the years on the Bailey writings > generally fall into three categories: > 1) "It's not HPB" > 2) "It's anti-homosexual" and > 3) "It's anti-Semitic" It's also anti-African. > Taking these out of order, > > 2) On homosexuality: as far as I can tell, the Tibetan doesn't say much > that could be considered pro-gay. Most of the very little *that is* > mentioned is along the lines that homosexuality is a misplaced expression > of human sexual force. I have quoted here in the past a section where Bailey claims that homosexuality is a matter of choice, and the choice is evil. > 3) This is Bart's point above, and much as I respect Bart and his comments > on theos-l, I have to disagree with him on this one. The Tibetans writings > are certainly not ZIONIST, but we should remember that the last of the > Bailey books came out in 1949, and at that time the pro-Zionist movement > was a minority position even within the Jewish community. In summary, the > Tibetan's position was that the Jewish Diaspora occured for a reason, and > that the Jewish nation was best left dispersed to intermingle and effect > the many countries rather than to be consolidated as one nation back into > Palestine. Obviously, not everyone is going to agree with this position, > but it should be pointed out that to this day not even all Jews agree among > themselves on the Zionist position. You misunderstood. While I have seen quite a bit of what I call anti-Semitism in Bailey, and mentioned it in the past, I was commenting on the habit of many FOLLOWERS of Bailey treating more traditional Theosophist the way many anti-Semitic Christians treat Jews. As you say... > not accept Alice Bailey's writings (or anyone else's). Bart's second > criticism was "the attitude among many Baileyites that HPB started > Theosophy, but Bailey completed it...". He made the analogy to > Christianity "finishing Judaism," but no matter; the idea of Bailey > "finishing Theosophy" isn't quite right; to be accurate, the Bailey > writings are that HPB is the beginning of the modern exposition of the > Ageless Wisdom, the Bailey writings are the sequential installment, and > there is one more yet to come. This -- imo -- is the source of the > "anti-Bailey" sentiment in the TS; the implication is that the AAB writings > are somehow more "advanced" than the standard, orthodox 19TH CENTURY > Theosophical teachings. For those who do not accept this on face value, I > can only restate the preface to each of the AAB books: it is for each > reader to decide whether or not they are correct, true and useful. > > To be sure, both Paul and Bart prefaced their comments as "most Baileyites > believe...", etc. You quoted me as saying "many". It is certainly true of about 75% of the Baileyites I have met. I also know of a few like you. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:06:54 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1462 Message-ID: <350B45CE.B4125FF5@sprynet.com> alpha@dircon.co.uk wrote: > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Not to mention her declaration that it is better to charge for services > than > >it is to beg for donations (I have quoted her exact statement here at least > once > >in the last couple of months). > Didn't see it. Could you please give the reference to her statement. Don't have it handy, and it's a bitch to retype. Check out Theosohical Society in the index of the Collected Writings. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:18:51 +1000 From: Dieter Dambiec Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1458 Message-ID: <01BD5072.26482CC0.u961309@student.canberra.edu.au> On Wednesday, March 11, 1998 12:51 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] wrote: > Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:00:49 -0600 > From: M K Ramadoss > To: theos-l@vnet.net > Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1457 > Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980310080049.0083e2f0@mail.eden.com> > At 05:13 AM 3/10/1998 -0500, you wrote: > >Also there is the socioeconomic > >approach of PROUT (PROgressive Utilisation Theory). > Is the author of PROUT, Sarkar who also started the Ananda Marga? > mkr yes, and as one poster mentions the social reality, and the need to survive and earn the legal tender, is in stark contrast to what a fair few of anyone with spiritual aspiration want to achieve in life. Spirituality in Sarkar's understanding is not a utopian ideal, nor is it only something to be undertaken in seclusion. Rather, spirituality is the subtlest dimension of human existence. It, being the expression towards Universalism and Omniscient Consciousness permeates everything and is responsible for the soothing human touch that we treasure in our personal and social endeavors. In this dynamic view of spirituality, human society plays an important role. Our social environment, our political-economic system, our cultural expression and our material standard of living have a direct influence on our mental outlook and our spiritual development. Conversely, the degree of civilization and culture that a society expresses is directly dependent on the physical, mental, and spiritual development of individuals. With this end in view, with the sole purpose of removing the physical miseries and afflictions, keeping in view the higher goals of human life, the Prout philosophy has been formulated. PROUT is the objective adjustment required in for the mental and spiritual expansion of humanity. The Progressive Utilization Theory was designed to provide a framework for this objective adjustment. It's intent is to balance the expansion of human psychic and spiritual capacity with developments on the material and social levels. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:42:51 +1000 From: Dieter Dambiec Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1459 Message-ID: <01BD5072.2A89A700.u961309@student.canberra.edu.au> On Thursday, March 12, 1998 12:57 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] wrote: > Our human lives depend on destroying other creatures to > nourish ourselves. It is one of the evils we have to cope with. Not at all, we have ample scope to choose lower life forms for food. Indulgence in unnecessary things is the so-called evil Historical archeological evidence shows in the main that humans did not eat much, if any animal foods before the first ice age, and our immediate ancestors (chimanzees and gorillas) are also vegetarian as is the whole of the ape kindom, and number of very large animals, eg elephant and giraffe. >but dwelling too much on necessary > evils isn't going to help any of us, especially you, in the end. Sounds like a sale pitch to the effect that forget about practical implementation of ideals - anyone can do what they like and that is spiritual. No thanks. To the contrary no evil was dealt on, rather what was dealt on was higher sentiments in the human consciousness. > Think about this...if the human race died out anytime soon, with all > of the chemical, biological, nuclear, etc. etc. factories and > treatment plants, the ecosystem would be destroyed within 5 or 6 years > (my own uneducated guess). There is no need to think about it, because it bears no practical significance. Human ingenuity despite some persons inclinations to crude expression, has the ability to solve all problems, and so there is no need to think along the dieing out manner (it is a type of stagnancy). No animals. No plants. No humans. But > hey, the rocks might be happy with the situation, even though acid > rain would be beating down on them all the time. They have no nerves, so it wouldn't bother them. Although they are also capable of expression because they can expand and contract as per temperature - so respect them also. We must destroy and > kill in order to create and preserve. It is a vicious cycle that has > been known of for millenia. Its not going to change; at least not by > an act of humanity. Pessimism at its finest. Pessimism and cynicism are not the mark of higher human consciousness or spirituality. It is this sort of thinking that has made religion what it is and forced people to pray in steppled buildings because of lack of courage to move ahead in their individual and social lives towards creating a human society worthy of the name dd From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:09:38 +1000 From: Dieter Dambiec Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1461 Message-ID: <01BD5072.2C999B40.u961309@student.canberra.edu.au> The point about food and values and ecology are all intimately linked to our spiritual existence. On Friday, March 13, 1998 11:56 AM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] wrote: We should appreciate everything that we take of this earth. > It's good to look at your food and realize where it all comes from, and the > sacrifices for those things to reach your plate. ---- We have to look at ecology from spiritual wholistic view also. Human beings, led by self interest, have been neglecting ecology at every step. We should remember that the sky and the air, the hills and the mountains, the rivers and forests, the wild animals and reptiles, the birds and fish, and all sorts of aquatic creatures and plants, are all inseparably related to one another... Human beings must be cautious from now on. They must restructure their thoughts, plans and activities in accordance with the dictates of ecology. There is no alternative. Many environemntal experts and activists would argue that to live a life according to the directives of ecology, is the most urgent task for humanity right now. But what does it mean? What will a genuine environmental ethics look like? For science, viruses represent the smallest accumulation and diversity of molecules which is recognized as "life." Maybe in the near future, when more subtle research-techniques are employed, we will recognize the sentience of smaller aggregations of molecules. For now, viruses personify the boundary between life and non-life. But in the wheel of creation--whether in the descending and devolutionary phase, or in the ascending and evolutionary stage--there is Consciosuness at every level of the way. Even stones and crystals are "alive" and have dormant minds and are expressions of Cosmic Consciousness. It is therefore impossible to draw a final line between animate and inanimate beings. In the so-called inanimate world "there is mind, but the mind is dormant, as if asleep, because there is no nervous system." Native Americans certainly experienced this mind in the cosmos. In the international best-seller , The Secret Life of Plants, Peter Thompkins and Christopher Bird reports that, when killing a tree, the tribal would have a heart-to-heart converzation with the tree. In no uncertain terms would he let the tree know what was going to happen, and finally he would ask for forgiveness for having to committ this unfortunate act of violence. In the same book, they also documented scientific experiments on plants with a modified lie detector. The instrument would register when a plant's leaves was cut or burnt. Not only that, when a plant "understood" it was going to be killed, it went into a state of schock or "numbness." Thus, the scientists explained, possibly preventing it from undue suffering, which again may explain the "warnings" given to trees by the Native Americans. Such laboratory tests, may sound outrageous to materialists, but not to the ancient, animist peoples from all over the world, nor to Indian yogis or Westerns mystics. They have for long informed us that we do not live in a dead and meaningless universe. There is spirit and creative will everywhere. There is longing for song in the heart of stones, and there is love for the Great in the bosom of trees. But unfortunately, nature cannot always "express its grief when it is damaged or destroyed. To protect... [it], [we] should conserve and properly utilize all natural resources." Poets and sages throughout the ages have observed a deep grief in nature. In "News of the Universe" (Sierra Club Books, 1980) poet Robert Bly writes about nature having a kind of melancholic mood, or a "slender sadness." Buddhists associate this intrinsic grief with the incessant wheel of reproduction. If nature--earth, trees, and water--truly experience a form of existential pain or grief, at least when destroyed and polluted, our conservation efforts and our ecological outlook must first and foremost acknowledge this innate suffering. And by acknowledging it, nature becomes part of ourselves. To paraphraze noted psychologist James Hillman--one of the innovators in the new field of eco-psychology--our mind is enlarged to include nature; the world becomes us. And if we destroy that world, out of ignorance or greed, we destroy a part of ourselves. Since mind or consciousness is expressed even in so-called inanimate objects as rocks, sand or mud, it perceives an intrinsic oneness in all of creation. Thus in Sarkar's worldview we grant existential rights or value to all beings--whether soil, plants, animals and humans. He concedes that in principle all physical expressions of Cosmic Consciousness has an equal right to exist and to express itself. This sentiment is echoed by Norwegian eco-philosopher Arne Naess, whose "biospherical egalitarianism" is advocated by the deep-ecology movement, which he founded. But as evolution is irreversible--amoebas eventually evolve into apes, but apes never transform into amoebas--Tantra also acknowledges "higher" and "lower" expressions of Consciousness. This differentiation is crucial, and it is on the basis of this that Tantra and deep-ecology differs. The Tantric ecological world-view is both egalitarian and hierarchical. Evolution proceeds by expressing more and more complex beings who are able to express higher levels of consciousness. On this evolutionary ladder, amoebas are at the "bottom" and humans are at the "top." Within this hierarchical system there are various levels of egalitarian cooperation, but the system as a whole is hierarchical. This notion is also supported by the new systems sciencies, which proclaim that one cannnot have wholeness without hierarchy. As Ken Wilber explains: "'Hierarchy' and 'wholeness,' in other words, are two names for the same thing, and if you destroy one, you completely destroy the other." (Wilber, pp. 16) Each hierarchy is composed of increasing orders of wholeness --organisms include cells which include molecules, which include atoms. In an evolutionary context, the new stage of development has extra value relative to the previous stage. An oak sprout is more complex and therefore endowed with a fuller expression of consciousness than an acorn. A monkey has a more evolved nervous system and mind than an insect, and a human has a more evolved brain and intellect than an ape. This crucial definition of subsequent higher stages of consciousness, of a hierachy of being, is central to Tantra. But, and with potential dire consequences, it is often overlooked by many Greens or deep-ecologists. They often equate hierachy with the higher exploiting the lower by transferring human pathological experiences of hierearchy--such as fascism, for example--to the study of nature. But the ecological universe of nature could not exist without hierarchy, and humans, for good or for worse, are, as the most advanced expression of consciousness in evolution, stewards of the natural world. Hence we need to acknowledge both unity and oneness as well as high and low (or deep and shallow) expressions of consciousness when developing an ecological worldview. We need to emulate nature in advancing what Riane Eisler calls "actualization hierarchies," (Riane Eisler, The Chalice and the Blade, Harper, San Francisco, 1987, pp 205) we must learn to maximize our species' potential, both in relation to ourselves and to nature. In other words, a self -actualized humanity can learn to integrate itself in relation to nature. Learn to realize our oneness with the "other." Learn to recognize that being on top of the evolutionary ladder does not give us the right to rob and exploit those lower than ourselves. Because of the many pathological expressions of hierarchy in human society--such as fascism, nazism, communism, or corporate multinationalism--many so-called new paradigm thinkers are suggesting a new and supposedly healthier model termed heterarchy. In a heterarchy, rule is established by an egalitarian interplay of all parties. For example, atoms may have a heterarchical relationship amongst themselves, but their relationship to a cell is hierarchical. In other words, the various heterarchies are strands in the ever-evolving web of hiererarchies, and when functioning optimally, the relatioship between them is one of coordinated cooperation.By negating hierarchy and favoring heterarchy only, we establish another pathology, because the existence or validity of heterarchy does not disprove the existence or importance of positive or actualized hierarchy. There is an ongoing movement towards greater complexity and higher consciousness in evolution, while at the same time there is, on a deeper level, ecological cooperation and spiritual unity amongst all beings.In other words, there is both heterarchy and hierarchy. To disprove the hierarchical flow of evolution by saying that all of us--whether leaf, tree, monkey or human--are equal, heterarchical partners in the great web of life, is to impose on nature faulty and limited concepts. It reduces the wondrous complexity of creation to a lowest common denominator, and that serves neither nature nor humans well. There is unity of consciousness amongst all beings, because we all come from, and are created by, the same Shakti. But nature is also infinitely diverse, and we need to embrace variety in all its forms. One such unique variety is expressed in terms of consciousness. A seedling is more complex and therefore more conscious than and acorn, and an oak is more complex and conscious than a seedling. Another way of expressing this is that a dog has more capacity for mental reflection and self -consciousness than a fir tree. Both are manifestations of Cosmic Consciousness, both have mind, and both have equal existential value--but because of the difference in expression of depth and quality of consciousness, the dog is higher on the natural hierarchy of being than the fir tree. So when we develop our ecological ethics, both the "low" and the "high" expressions of nature must be valued and accounted for. Nonhuman creatures have the same existential value to themselves as human beings have to themselves. Perhaps human beings can understand the value of their existence, while other living beings cannot... Even so, no one has delegated any authority to human beings to kill those unfortunate creatures. (PR Sarkar, Neohumanism, pp. 64)But in order to survive, we cannot avoid killing other beings. To solve this dilemma, articles of food are to be selected from amongst those beings where development of consciousness is comparatively low. If vegetables, corn, bean and rice are availbale, cows or pigs should not be slaughtered. Secondly, before killing any animals with "develeoped or underdeveloped consciousness," we must consider deeply if it is possible to live a healthy life without taking such lives. Thus, in addition to existential value, various beings, based on their depth of consciousness, have a variable degree of what is often termed "intrinsic value." The more consciousness a being has, the deeper the feelings, and the more potential for suffering. Eating plants is therefore preferrable to eating animals. As George Bernhard Shaw once said: "Animals are my friends...and I don't eat my friends." It is also ecologically more sustainable to extract nourishment from entities lower down on the food chain. Vast land areas are used to raise livestock for food. These areas could be utilized far more productively if planted with grains, beans, and other legumes for human consumption. It is estimated that only 10 percent of the protein and calories we feed to our livestock is recovered in the meat we eat. The other 90 percent goes literally "down the drain." (What's Wrong With Eating Meat, Vistara Parham, Sisters Universal Publishing, Northnampton, 1979, pp. 39) In addition to existential value, and intrinsic value, all beings have utility value. He says that human beings usually preserve those creatures which have an immeditate utility value. We are more inclined to preserve the lives of cows than of rats, for example. But, because of all beings' existential value, we cannot argue that "only human beings have the right to live, and not non-humans. All are the children of Mother Earth; all are the offspring of the [Cosmic] Consciousness." He also points out that sometimes we do not know enough about the real utility value of an animal or a plant; therefore we may needlessly destroy the ecological balance by killing one species without considering the consequences of its complex relationship or utility value to other species. A forest's utility value, for example, is more than just x number of board feet of lumber. It serves as nesting and feeding ground for birds and animals; its roots and branches protect the soil from erosion; its leaves or needles produce oxygen; and its pathways and camp grounds provide nourishment for the human soul. As a whole, the forest ecosystem has an abundance of ecological, aesthetic, and spiritual values which extends far beyond its benefits as tooth picks and plywood. All of nature is endowed with existential and intrinsic value, as well as utility value. This hierarchical, and ultimately holistic understanding of evolution and ecology, formulates the basic foundation for a new, and potentially groundbraking ecological ethics. If we embrace the divinity in all of creation, the expression of our ecological ethics will become an act of sublime spirituality. Our conservation efforts and our sustainable resource use will become sacred offerings to Mother Earth, and ultimately to Cosmic Consciousness, to both Shiva and Shakti, the God and Goddess within and beyond nature. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:36:56 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Internet Message-ID: <350AB228.CA3A28F4@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > We can just use our imagination where Internet revolution is heading. > > My 0.02 The downside: How can you trust the veracity of the information? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:14:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980314171452.00c04940@mail.eden.com> At 11:42 AM 3/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> We can just use our imagination where Internet revolution is heading. >> >> My 0.02 > > The downside: How can you trust the veracity of the information? > > Bart Lidofsky > > Verify if possible. Trust is something that is built over a period of time. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 15:30:37 -0500 From: jim meier Subject: to Paul & Bart: re Blavatsky & Bailey Message-ID: <199803141530_MC2-36BA-D429@compuserve.com> There are two statements in recent theos-l threads that I would like to comment upon, both concerning Alice A. Bailey: from K. Paul (? - this is a 2nd source quotation; apologies if mis-attribution of authorship) on the Farthing thread: Farthing: >> 'Fringe' literature can be obtained in ordinary bookshops or from other >> organizations, e.g. the Arcane School, the Anthroposophical Society, etc. Paul (?): >The mentality that decides Bailey and Steiner are "fringe" while >their own favorite post-HPB authors are "mainstream" is >responsible for driving many people away from the Society. The >Baileyites and Steinerites are dogmatic about their own stuff >being authoritative. The TS is called upon to be open, eclectic, >and nondogmatic. Earlier in his post, Paul made the comment that "those who believe their statements are not speculation, opinion, or theory but fact are a dime a dozen." To which I say, Amen, and would add further that many such believe that ONLY "their statements"... etc. Lord save us from those who would save us, as the saying goes. I agree 100% with his assertion that such dogma drives people from the TS(A), and I've written other posts on this list to that same point. I do have a slight beef with his opinon that "Baileyites are dogmatic about their own stuff being authoritative"; this is hard to accept, since each and every book by Alice A. Bailey and the Tibetan, Djwhal Khul, opens with a preface that says they are in no way interested in anyone claiming "authority" for the books but, rather, "They may or may not be correct, true and useful. It is for you to ascertain their truth by right practice and by exercise of the intuition" and ends with, "If the statements meet with eventual corroboration or are deemed true under the test of the Law of Correspondences, then that is well and good. But should this not be so, let not the student accept what is said." Which seems pretty non-dogmatic to me -- at least at the source. On the other hand, many (if not most) Bailey fans believe that D.K. is one of the "Masters" (to use a Theosophical term) and that may be the source of "authority" that Paul refers to. An open question: are Theosophists who accept the writings in the book THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P. SINNETT dogmatic? Paul's first point (in the snippet above) is a key, imo, on the future of Theosophy; i.e., the post-HPB writings, their proper place and importance in our studies. Most of us, I suspect, believe that the "Ageless Wisdom" doesn't end with THE SECRET DOCTRINE or even COLLECTED WRITINGS. The arguments all seem to come with the "what next?" question. Bart Lidofsky commented > I have come to at least one conclusion that a lot of my own anti-Bailey > feelings come from my Jewish upbringing. First of all, she was a > near-fundamentalist Christian (Leadbeater's Christian symbolism is also a turn-off > for me). Second is the attitude among many Baileyites that Blavatsky started > Theosophy, but Bailey completed it, which smacks of the Christian telling the > Jew that they are not a true Jew, because Jesus completed what Judaism started, > and you need to be a Christian to be a Jew. My comments on Bart's statement:: First, If this doesn't come out right, I hope theos-l readers will try to see what I'm getting at rather than the words themselves. I've been a subscriber of this list almost from the beginning, and I've seen any number of discussions "go tangent" into mis-communications when (imo) there was something useful that could have come from them. Negative comments on this list over the years on the Bailey writings generally fall into three categories: 1) "It's not HPB" 2) "It's anti-homosexual" and 3) "It's anti-Semitic" there may be others, but they haven't been made here (that I know of; I've been frequently away from the Net and theos-l). Taking these out of order, 2) On homosexuality: as far as I can tell, the Tibetan doesn't say much that could be considered pro-gay. Most of the very little *that is* mentioned is along the lines that homosexuality is a misplaced expression of human sexual force. For people who are "one-issue voters," this is something that I cannot answer; this may be my mis-understanding of his writings or an actual position against homosexuality -- as it is claimed by most. Theosophy appeals, mostly, to people who are on the "liberal" side of the political spectrum, so any non-pro-gay sentiments are perhaps disproportionate to us. Then again, the Tibetan was writing in the early part of this century, and perhaps that colored the thoughts expressed. (note: this is only my opinion, here; as a "left-wing liberal," it isn't easy for me to address this point. On the other hand, I don't pretend to be an authority on the AAB writings...) 3) This is Bart's point above, and much as I respect Bart and his comments on theos-l, I have to disagree with him on this one. The Tibetans writings are certainly not ZIONIST, but we should remember that the last of the Bailey books came out in 1949, and at that time the pro-Zionist movement was a minority position even within the Jewish community. In summary, the Tibetan's position was that the Jewish Diaspora occured for a reason, and that the Jewish nation was best left dispersed to intermingle and effect the many countries rather than to be consolidated as one nation back into Palestine. Obviously, not everyone is going to agree with this position, but it should be pointed out that to this day not even all Jews agree among themselves on the Zionist position. imo and, I think, the Tibetan's, one can be pro-Jewish without being a Zionist. My first bbs discussions with someone who was "anti-Bailey" (as Bart described himself) was with a rabbi and professor of Jewish history who (although we later became friends) refused to accept the idea that Judaism did not equal Zionism. This is the cornerstone of Arab anti-Israeli sentiments, and it is interesting to see how this plays out in the Middle East drama (note: for anyone as ignorant as I was when my Jewish friend and I started those discussions, Zionism is " 1) a plan or movement of the Jewish people to return from the Diaspora to Palestine. 2) A movement originally aimed at the re-establishment of a Jewish national homeland and state in Palestine and now concerned with the development of Israel." Am. Heritage Dictionary). 1) "It's not HPB" -- this is a valid criticism, from one view. Theosophists who believe that "theosophy" stopped with HPB's teaching do not accept Alice Bailey's writings (or anyone else's). Bart's second criticism was "the attitude among many Baileyites that HPB started Theosophy, but Bailey completed it...". He made the analogy to Christianity "finishing Judaism," but no matter; the idea of Bailey "finishing Theosophy" isn't quite right; to be accurate, the Bailey writings are that HPB is the beginning of the modern exposition of the Ageless Wisdom, the Bailey writings are the sequential installment, and there is one more yet to come. This -- imo -- is the source of the "anti-Bailey" sentiment in the TS; the implication is that the AAB writings are somehow more "advanced" than the standard, orthodox 19TH CENTURY Theosophical teachings. For those who do not accept this on face value, I can only restate the preface to each of the AAB books: it is for each reader to decide whether or not they are correct, true and useful. To be sure, both Paul and Bart prefaced their comments as "most Baileyites believe...", etc. My point is that it is better to "source the source," so to speak, rather than to judge Christianity by Paul or Theosophists by any "fringe" believers. Most "Baileyites," I suspect, consider themselves Theosophists, while believing that the AAB writings are a sequential follow-up to the initial revelation in modern times of the Ageless Wisdom given in HPB's writings. Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:17:26 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: New Age and Adepts Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980314161726.00948d90@mail.eden.com> With all the literature floating around about New Age, the level of misunderstanding and confusion is unbelievable. This is going to become worse when some Theosophical organizations in their zeal try to introduce Theosophy to the public by placing emphasis on mysteries of nature, occult etc as a modern day marketing tactic. Recently one of the "spiritual" organizations was contacted by a person who wanted to join the organization so that he can be made an adept. This person was under the impression that the organization was in the business of making adepts of members. The more organizations hawk the mystery, occult side, more there will be misconceptions and someone is likely to con those who are willing to pay a hefty fee to be made an adept -- whatever that may mean. I will not be surprised if this happens because everyone has come to believe in the West that a monetary fee is ok for a service and who would hesitate to pay to be made an adept. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:37:42 GMT From: alpha@dircon.co.uk Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1462 Message-ID: <199803142237.WAA23300@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Not to mention her declaration that it is better to charge for services than >it is to beg for donations (I have quoted her exact statement here at least once >in the last couple of months). Didn't see it. Could you please give the reference to her statement. Tony From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:00:33 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Supplement to Farthing's Manifesto Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980314180033.00948d00@mail.eden.com> Thanks to Dick Slusser, Editor of HCT (dslusser@indra.com) who has made the following supplement available. Farthing's original manifesto appeared in the May 1977 HCT. His supplement to the original is in the August 1997 HCT. ========================================= SUPPLEMENT 1997 TO MANIFESTO 1996 CONCERNING THE FUTURE OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY by GEOFFERY A. FARTHING CONTENTS OF SUPPLEMENT 1. Comment on Manifesto - brief discussion thereof. 2. Prevailing conditions at time of Society's founding. 3. The Hodgson Report. Vindication of H.P.B. Her wrongful dismissal from Adyar. Karmic consequences. 4. More about the uniqueness of Theosophy. No other organization has it. 5. Some recommendations. Commercialism, professionalism, new electronic media. 6. Keeping up the pressure. 7. Summary. 1. COMMENT ON REPLIES TO MANIFESTO 1996 Very few were received. Points made were: 1. To study original Theosophy would be submitting to dogma and limiting. 2. A study of the original literature would somehow restrict freedom of thought and curtail members' rights to decide between 'true' and 'false' theosophy. 3. The document ought not to have been sent to other than members of the General Council. 4. Presumptions about leaders of the Society not having direct contact with the Masters were questionable. 5. Since H.P.B's death some members of the Society claim or claimed to have been in contact with the Masters, i.e. the Masters' links with the corporate Society and/or Adyar have not been broken. It is noteworthy that the historical outline from the formation of the Society through the Besant/Leadbeater era was not questioned and that the disassociation of the Society from all other bodies, e.g. CoMasons, was neither questioned nor even mentioned. Although the Manifesto expressly supported all members' freedoms, i.e. to read what they like and join whatever institutions they wanted. It was taken in some quarters that the Manifesto would restrict freedom, particularly in the matter of what should be read. The Manifesto in fact defended the freedoms but it did say that people's private opinions as to what Theosophy was were not in themselves Theosophy. Theosophy is a definite science related to the nature of Nature herself and is not in any way a matter of opinion, belief or view. It cannot be either 'true' or 'false'. Theosophy proper is the knowledge of what is, and as it is, at all levels of being. It opens up to the student the whole Cosmic scene. Its bounds are the furthest limits of the Universe and its profundity the greatest depths to which human (and superhuman) cognition can go by faculties developed to their fullness in aeons of evolutionary time. It has no conceivable limits and is all-embracing. It is open-ended and can in no sense be regarded as limiting or interfering with 'opinions' about which it has nothing to do. It would appear that those who regard its study as limiting are judging it against a background of the circumscribed personal nonInitiate literature of second generation 'theosophy'. The limitation is in those who have got what they want and do not want to look further. To discuss such matters as freedom of thought and dogmatism is not really relevant because those issues are not raised. The purpose of the Manifesto is to discuss what is to be done to preserve the Society into the next century so that it can fulfill its intended functions, and to justify any action that may be necessary. The historical background to the Society as it now is, is very relevant to these considerations. The presumption that neither Annie Besant nor C.W. Leadbeater were, after possibly some initial incidents, in contact with the Masters was questioned. That assumption, however, was made after an extensive analysis of all the major events in the Society's history during their terms of office. Too many irreconcilable things happened to indicate that there was direction by any Masters either directly or through them. For example, the question arises: why did Krishnamurti not only renounce the office claimed for him but very soon leave the Society altogether? Surely if he had been a protege of the Masters he would have known their intentions for the Society. He would have wished to stay and work for it. After he left, however, he had no more connection with it and certainly did not propound Theosophy. The answer to this question must be that he became convinced that the role that Leadbeater cast for him was not ordained by the Masters, and particularly not one of the highest degree. The communication with Masters that some leaders - and others - claimed to have had was based on their saying so, or by inferences and implications, which it was not possible to corroborate. We have the Masters' statement about their communicating through H.P.B. and that when she WAS not available or even when her aura was exhausted, there would be no more letters (see Letter 20, p 54, of Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, 1st Series, Jinarajadasa). Leadbeater was able to cast a 'glamour' over not only Mrs Besant but the majority of members of the Society. This glamour still hangs over it and is at the root of much erroneous, even superstitious, thinking. It was from this conditioned thinking and a dependence on leaders, guides, institutions, etc., that Krishnamurti urged his hearers to liberate themselves and become free, relying only on themselves. It was, however, not the leaders, gurus, etc. who imprisoned them, it was themselves. Krishnamurti through not knowing, or ignoring Theosophy was not mindful of Natures' processes, one of which is growth in time by stages. Freedom, as propounded by him was not and is not yet within the possible comprehension or experience of the majority of human-kind at this time. 'Guides, philosophers and friends' are still very necessary. Even so we should not be unmindful of Jesus' saying, "The Truth shall make you free" What this really means may not be obvious but it is reiterated in various ways in Theosophy. There is a passage in the Conclusion to The Key to Theosophy relevant to this: If you speak of THEOSOPHY, I answer that, as it has existed eternally throughout endless cycles upon cycles of the Past, so it will ever exist throughout the infinitudes of the Future, because Theosophy is synonymous with EVERLASTING TRUTH. Yet there are some who see it changing with the times! 2. THE SOCIETY IN CONTEXT OF PREVAILING CONDITIONS AT ITS INCEPTION The role for the Society has to be seen against a background of what was 'topically in the air' at the time when it was founded. Science had become arrogant and was voicing a view that at its present rate of progress it would soon be able to answer all questions concerning the nature of Cosmos. On the other hand, religion, particularly in the West, was wholly dogmatic, formal and institutionalized. Against this dual background there was a lively interest in Spiritualism and to a lesser degree Magic. The Rosicrucianism, the Kabala, Masonry, Hermeticism, Ceremonial Magic, were all movements involving a relatively large number of people on both sides of the Atlantic. Each faction had its own group of elite, degrees of secrecy and a literature freely circulated amongst members, but not so freely available to the general public. Many of these movements had roots going back into antiquity. Where though was an earnest and serious seeker after Truth to go for genuine non-partisan information on these matters? There were (and maybe still are) some secret Occult lodges then working. >From amongst these the two 'theosophical' Masters, members of the Trans-Himalayan branch, were given permission to give out a certain amount of occult teaching. They decided to make the effort in spite of the scepticism of their brethren. They had to find someone with the necessary qualifications to operate as their mouthpiece in the world. We do not know how many candidates there were but they said that H.P.B. was the best available at the time and through her a mass of information was eventually given to the world (see M.L.2). The Manifesto tells of her labours in the literary field to introduce the Ancient Wisdom to the world - particularly the West as all her principal writings were in English. Her writings later included Instructions to her Inner Group which she formed during the last two years of her life. Apart from her continuing articles, there is a compilation of Notes taken at meetings of the Blavatsky Lodge, known as The Transactions of the Blavataky Lodge, where in many abstruse aspects of Theosophy are explained. During the course of H.P.B's life the interest in Spiritualism somewhat diminished; science opened new fields of exploration and became less dogmatic; to a small extent dogmatic religion became less rigid. In this field the advent of translations of the scriptures and other holy books from India and the Far East becoming generally available in the West was beginning to have an effect. The relationship to Theosophy as given us by H.P.B. with modern thought in terms of the stage at which science has now established itself and having regard to the present freedoms within the religious and psychological fields, has not yet been specifically explored to any extent. However, the prophetic nature of the writings of H.P.B. in a number of aspects in these fields is very significant. Her works are as relevant today as they were when they were written, validating their claim even now to speak for the Ancient Wisdom, or the Wisdom Religion as she sometimes termed it. It is important that the outpouring of knowledge given us through H.P.B. should be clearly distinguished from the longstanding traditional knowledge and wisdom which for centuries have been freely available and even now are sources of inspiration and instruction for many people. The latter were in no sense esoteric or occult. Whole areas of theosophic thought and explanation are not in them. 3. THE HODGSON REPORT The full report by Dr Vernon Harrison of his investigations into the Hodgson Report has now been published. This document completely vindicates H.P.B. of all the charges of fraud in the matter of the production of the Mahatma Letters. It re-establishes H.P-.B's standing as an author in her own right, but not of the Mahatma Letters. According to Dr Harrison there was no author of those letters other than the Masters themselves, regardless of how the letters may have been produced and received. A second aspect of this vindication is the clearing of H.P.B. of all charges brought against her by the missionaries in Madras in the Coulomb affair. This vindication has far-reaching effects. Had these charges of fraud not been levelled against H.P.B. it is very unlikely that she would have left Adyar at the time she did. When the charges were brought by the missionaries H.P.B. wanted to take legal action against them. Olcott advised against this and he was supported by the General Council. It appears, however, that some at least of the members of the General Council were inimical to H.P.B. They would do nothing to support her; rather did they wish, for reasons of their own, that she should leave Adyar. What pressure was brought to bear on her we do not know but we do know that in her going she was required to renounce her claim to any property rights she might have had on the compound and to give up ownership of The Theosophist which she had founded. These requirements indicate that her going was not to be temporary. It has been claimed that her health was a reason for her returning to Europe; that may have been a contributory factor but her health having been restored she could have gone back to Adyar. As things were, however, she felt it quite impossible to return. In plain fact she had been 'dismissed'. The consequences of this departure were not immediately obvious to those left behind. In effect, however, it meant that the magnetic link between the Masters and Adyar was severed. There was no one else there to act in H.P.B's capacity. Damodar had received some training and might to some extent have done so but he was not there any more. It has not been really understood or accepted that H.P.B. was in fact the direct agent of the Masters (see Letter 19 of Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, 1st Series, Jinarajadasa). For example, Sinnett could not accept this and resented it, with the result that with his increasing irritation at having to receive correspondence through her, the letters from the Masters just ceased. H.P.B. would not transmit any more. Both the Masters and H.P.B. warned him this would happen. Without H.P.B. to operate through they would and did retire into obscurity. The karmic consequences of Olcott's and the General Council's unwillingness to support H.P.B. and her subsequent departure form Adyar is something that remains. Her dismissal inflicted great personal hurt and injustice in the light of her innocence (now proven). Any General Council that over the years has neglected to rectify the position or even acknowledge what happened and has taken no measures whatever to redress the situation has transmitted the karmic consequences of the action of the original Council to its successors up to the present time. This is something that must be recognized when considering the action to be taken to ensure the proper continuity of the Society. 4. THE UNIQUENESS OF THEOSOPHY In the Manifesto some historical background to the founding of the Theosophical Society was given. Against this background an appreciation of what was intended for the Society can be made. It is important to realize how these teachings stand in relation to the various classical schools of antiquity. In The Secret Doctrine it says, "It is not taught in any of the six Indian Schools of Philosophy, for it pertains to their synthesis - the seventh, which is the occult doctrine. It is not traced on any crumbling papyrus of Egypt nor is it any longer graven on Assyrian tile or granite wall. The Books of the Vedanta (the last word of human knowledge) give out but the metaphysical aspect of this world-Cosmogony; and their priceless thesaurus, the Upanishads, Upa-Ni-Shad being a compound word meaning the "conquest of ignorance by the revelation of secret, spiritual knowledge" [S.D.I, 269] - require now the additional possession of a master key to enable the student to get at their full meaning." This quoted passage clearly distinguishes Theosophy from what was contained in even the greatest of the world's religious teachings then available. This distinction was very soon overlooked and forgotten. What was distinctly different between the new outpouring and the old systems lies in the field of Occultism or Esotericism proper. Many of the old religious and philosophical systems had an occult background for the most part kept secret and jealously guarded. A detailed examination of the essential differences has no place in a document such as this but they are primarily based on a fuller knowledge of the planes of Nature, together with scales of correspondences, and the inner constitution of man, showing how these can be quickened and developed to 'expand' his consciousness by the study and assimilation of the Eternal Verities of Theosophy. 5. SOME RECOMMENDATIONS The case made above indicates that in the hundred years or so since H.P.B's death and her leaving Adyar the whole character of the Society has changed. It can never go back to what it was in the late 1800's because the whole world situation has changed. Nevertheless, what the Society has to offer by way of the Ancient Wisdom is itself changeless. The 'Eternal Verities' do not change as the world situation changes in terms of culture, politics and the vicissitudes of national fortunes, or any other such circumstance. The setting, however, in which the Ancient Wisdom is presented to the world, and the means for its presentation, have to change. In the Manifesto a warning was issued against trying to 'popularize' Theosophy by simplification. This can only lead to dilution and possible distortion. Because of the magnitude and, for many people, the inherent difficulty of acquiring a knowledge of Theosophy, the great temptation has been to substitute for the real thing something easier to apprehend or practice. Substitute activities may in themselves have intrinsic, sometimes perhaps even considerable value, but they do not contain or even reflect the unique nature of Master-inspired Theosophy. This diversion of attention from the purpose of the Society is the main argument for the disassociation of all other organizations from the Theosophical Society. In The Key (p 21 Orig. Ed.) H.P.B. outlines reasons for joining the Society and instances the importance of each Lodge having its own specific activity. She mentioned healing as one. Members should realize that some of the teaching, direct or implied, in for example the Egyptian Rite, is directly at variance with Theosophy, particularly the 'adoration' of post-human entities (angels, etc. ) who have long since lost all the limitation of personal feelings, and want no worship. All who would see in ceremonial a means of salvation are recommended to read in The Secret Doctrine from the bottom two paragraphs of p 279, Orig. Ed. and the third paragraph on p 280. These passages include the following: .. neither the collective Host (Demiourgos), nor any of the working powers [in Cosmos] individually, are proper subjects for divine honours or worship. All are entitled to the grateful reverence of Humanity, however, and man ought 1) Apart from its three objects the intention for the Society was to propagate a knowledge of Theosophy. Theosophy is the teaching as propounded by H.P.B.and the Masters of the Wisdom. 2) H.P.B. was wrongfully dismissed from Adyar. Her innocence having been proved, some redress is due to her. In effect this means reinstating her teachings (and those of her Masters). 3) Neither Krishnamurti nor his teachings have anything to do with Theosophy whatever their other merits may be. ==============end================ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:06:19 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Manifesto 3 Message-ID: This is a very considerate response to the manifesto. I'm curious as to why Mr. Farthing has a need to write up such a manifesto. What was the reason for denying CWL and Besant. What was the reason to go back to strictly adhering to HPB's writings? Was there some movement or non-movement within the TS that made the leaderships feel that they have to make these changes? What were the changes? Everyone has a reason for something, good or bad. I would like to know what it is. Thoa :o) K. Paul: >This manifesto says so many things that I think are dangerous to >the Theosophical movement that I cannot resist replying in some >detail. Mr. Farthing has been kind and helpful to me in my >work through assisting in the India Office Library research >of Tony Hern, and wrote a sympathetic review of TMR. So I regret >differing so sharply with his views, and would remain silent did >I not think them typical of an emerging dogmatism in the TS. > >According to theos-l@vnet.net: > >> [P81.] This was certainly the case in the early days of the 20th century. >> It was almost vehemently stressed then that there was no such thing as a >> definite 'theosophical' system of thought, knowledge or teaching. The great >> fear was of 'dogmatism'. > >which was hypocritical then because anyone who didn't buy the >Besant/Leadbeater party line was ostracised. >> >> [P82.] This word, however, was, and still is in places, wrongly applied. A >> dogma means an obligatory belief and no such thing is imposed on >> Theosophical Society members. > >Imposition can be subtle as well as overt. I've never seen even >subtle imposition of obligatory beliefs at the *local* level of >TS activity, but it's getting more and more overt at the >national and international levels. What do we mean by >"obligatory?" Nothing is obligatory for *membership*. But to be >treated with respect and inclusiveness by the leadership, a whole >range of dogmatic beliefs are obligatory. > > This does not mean that there are not >> authoritative statements of fact such as those given us by the Masters, who >> claim to know what they speak or write about, i.e. they are not >> speculating, voicing opinions or advancing theories. > >People who claim that their statements are not speculation, >opinion or theory, but pure fact, are a dime a dozen. The >genuine original programme of the TS was absolutely opposed to >treating any pronouncements from anyone as authoritative. There >is abundant documentation of this truth. >> >> [P83.] All beliefs concerning Theosophy and the Theosophical Society ought >> seriously to be questioned against what can easily be discovered of the >> original teachings and intentions for the Society. A serious perusal of >> THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY will do this. > >They also ought to be questioned seriously against all other >knowledge prior or subsequent to HPB and the Mahatma letters, if >the TS is to be true to its mission. >> >snip > >> enduring influence by way of his writings, is suspect. It must be >> recognized that these writings are 'theosophically' defective and >> misleading. > >To be frank, I think they're worthless-- but don't want the TS >leadership to officially recognize anything as "theosophically >defective and misleading." It's not the Society's business to >determine any such thing. > >snip-- agree with separation from ES, LCC, and Co-Masonry >> >> [P93.] The Society has its own special message to promulgate. This >> message only exists in the writings of HPB and in the Mahatma Letters. > >!?!?!?!?! There are probably several dozen passages I could cite >that would contradict this assertion, right from the horses' >mouths. And maybe an equal number that might seem to support it. >Unfortunately, this seems to be gaining influence as a view in >the Society, and it's fatal to freedom of thought. > > This >> message in its completeness (as far as it was given out) is unique. > >Highly arguable, as it can be shown to correlate with a great >many sources that HPB herself alluded to. > >> >> [P94.] The future direction of the Society must therefore include: >> >> [P95.] 1) The eradication of the 'make-believe' Leadbeater influence - in >> all departments including literature, and severance from the Society of all >> other organizations, i.e. the Liberal Catholic Church and Co-Masonry. > >Much as the CWL influence disgusts me, I will fight against any >effort to "eradicate" it which smacks of the Inquisition. >Publicly discuss it, yes. Let people know all the contradictions >and all the evidence concerning CWL, yes. Eradicate his >influence? It's not the Society's business to set about to do >any such thing, any more than it was right to treat him as a >sacred cow all these years in order to preserve said influence. >> >> [P96.] 2) A thorough examination of all literature purporting to be >> 'theosophical', and a brave declaration, and no further promotion, of any >> which is not wholly consonant with the original teachings. > >Astoundingly dogmatic. Who, pray tell, are the authority figures >who get to decide for the rest of us what is and is not wholly >consonant, and what gives them the right to dictate to us? > > This is no >> proscription but all books purporting to be theosophical which strictly are >> not should be clearly labeled or marked that they are the author's views on >> the subject and not necessarily authentic. Members are, of course, free to >> read what they like but they can be warned, if not guided. The section in >> any Theosophical Society library purporting to be theosophical literature >> should be segregated from other material offered, be clearly marked and the >> books given prominence on book lists, catalogues, etc. > >The librarian in me points out that the segregation and labeling of >"accepted" and "suspect" literature is a profound violation of >intellectual freedom. >> >snip >> >> [P99.] 5) Commercialism in any form, i.e. book selling or publication as >> such, without specific reference to the promotion of a knowledge of >> Theosophy, is not part of the legitimate activities of the Society. > >Tell that to HPB who advertised non-theosophical books in her >magazines, and reviewed them favorably, etc. > >> 'Fringe' literature can be obtained in ordinary bookshops or from other >> organizations, e.g. the Arcane School, the Anthroposophical Society, etc. > >The mentality that decides Bailey and Steiner are "fringe" while >their own favorite post-HPB authors are "mainstream" is >responsible for driving many people away from the Society. The >Baileyites and Steinerites are dogmatic about their own stuff >being authoritative. The TS is called upon to be open, eclectic, >and nondogmatic. > >> This recommendation is made with our second object specifically in mind. >> Study of comparative religion is encouraged by the Society but it does not >> have to publish or supply the books. > >Saying it does not have to is no argument that it shouldn't. > >> >snip > >> There is obviously now no corporate connection with the Masters so that >> that 'make-believe' can be dispensed with. The E.S. study should be >> confined to the Master or HPB writings. The Society has no other >> Initiate-inspired literature. > >While I certainly concur that the ES has no real connection to >the Masters, if they want to think so that's fine. As far as >Initiate-inspired literature, HPB and Olcott certainly had a much >vaster view of what that includes than Mr. Farthing does. >> >snip >> >> [P108.] This was the position when HPB made some of that knowledge public: >> it was much resented even by Subba Rao whose Master incidentally was the >> same as HPB's. All extant scriptures are exoteric even though in their >> mystical content they reflect much of what is in Theosophy. > >All extant Theosophical works are exoteric too. > >snip >> >> [P112.] For example, the Hindu system is fivefold, as far as the human >> principles and the skandhas are concerned, whereas the theosophical system >> is sevenfold. The planes of Nature are sevenfold, with each having a >> corresponding level of consciousness. > >So some say. Others say differently. The Society is not in the >business of dictating which model is correct, but rather in >comparing and contrasting them. >> >snip >> >> their profundity and inner meaning is completely lost. Such an attempt to >> 'popularize' Theosophy in this way, to make it appeal to people who >> otherwise cannot comprehend it, is virtual sacrilege. > >What in the world can one say to this? I consider it a sacrilege >to treat HPB's work, which she herself said was not free from >error or authoritative, as if it were, and to condemn efforts to >make it more accessible to the public. This is elitism pure and >simple, which the TS has too much of already without manifestos >calling for more. >> >I see this manifesto as a sure recipe for shrinking the TS to a >tenth its current size and making it the carcass stranded on a >sandbank that HPB warned about in the Key to Theosophy as the >inevitable result of dogmatism. > >PJ, aghast From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:21:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: Manifesto 3 Message-ID: <19980313202127.29699.rocketmail@send1d.yahoomail.com> ---Thoa Tran wrote: > > This is a very considerate response to the manifesto. I'm curious as to > why Mr. Farthing has a need to write up such a manifesto. What was the > reason for denying CWL and Besant. What was the reason to go back to > strictly adhering to HPB's writings? Was there some movement or > non-movement within the TS that made the leaderships feel that they have to > make these changes? What were the changes? Everyone has a reason for > something, good or bad. I would like to know what it is. > > Thoa :o) I basically had the same question, only with emphasis on a couple of different points. Who, exactly, is Farthing? MKR noted that he was a "long-time" English Theosophist, but what did he do? Is he a political power? A member of the E.S.? Does he belong to a sub-society within the T.S. that may benefit from such changes in structure and code? I find it hard to analyze the manifesto without knowing the person. The only thing I can really say about the entire document is that there were a few contradictions, particularly regarding dogmatism. He definitely tried to "skirt the truth" in that respect. Also...and perhaps I didn't understand it correctly...he stated in P120, "Theosophy itself cannot be popularized", yet in the last paragraph, he ends with, "...with a sublime object in view: the salvation of the whole human race by a "popularization" of their teachings. Surely we can attempt to do this to the limit of our capacity." Why would he want to attempt it if he is so sure that it cannot be done? Will be back to write more later...gotta go. --- Peeled, Jaqi. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 00:42:10 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Manifesto 3 Message-ID: Bart Lidofsky writes > I have come to at least one conclusion that a lot of my own anti-Bailey >feelings come from my Jewish upbringing. First of all, she was a >near-fundamentalist Christian (Leadeater's Christian symbolism is also a turn-off >for me). Second is the attitude among many Baileyites that Blavatsky started >Theosophy, but Bailey completed it, which smacks of the Christian telling the >Jew >that they are not a true Jew, because Jesus completed what Judaism started, >and >you need to be a Christian to be a Jew. Many Christians take this approach, which is, or course, quite untrue. Firstly, Jesus was a Galilean, not a Judean (Jew) and his "school" seems to have continued under "James [Jacob] the Just]" in Jerusalem. The Christianity we know today derives in the most part from the apostle Paul, and his development of the Pharasaic traditions of Hillel and Gamaliel, who were without doubt (IMO) conveyors of the esoteric tradition. Then again, the latter day pharisaic developments led to the rabbinic Judaism which is mostly practised today - even among thre 'Hasidim, who are Kabbalists to a man, ALSO conveying the esoteric tradition. Sigh. Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 00:46:26 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Local health vs. global sickness Message-ID: In message <350973BD.D0FD75BF@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > "A Theosophist and a Christian are walking down the road together. At a >fork, they see the roadsign, and become very excited. The Christian runs down >the fork to the left, while the Theosophist runs down the fork to the right. > > Another man was walking some distance behind them, and observed their >behavior. Curious, he walked to the fork, and looked at the roadsign. The sign >to the left said, 'Heaven'. The sign to the right said, 'Discussion about >Heaven'." I love it. It remnds me of the answer to a question asked of a leading Theosophical luminary (possibly Arundale). A questionaer asked him about meditation. "Do you mean ordinary meditation or theosophical meditation," he asked. "Theosophical meditation," was the reply. "Theosophical meditation," explained the teacher, "is a bunch of old ladies drinking tea." Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 00:31:04 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Manifesto 3 Message-ID: K. Paul Johnson writes >I see this manifesto as a sure recipe for shrinking the TS to a >tenth its current size and making it the carcass stranded on a >sandbank that HPB warned about in the Key to Theosophy as the >inevitable result of dogmatism. Which is what will probably happen. Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:41:18 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: Ananda Marga's Legal Problems Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980314074118.009cee80@mail.eden.com> Your information is well taken. In spite of it, it would be very prudent to anyone to do their homework and decide for themselves about any organization which had involvement in serious criminal allegations. Anyone who knows about Indian Judicial system knows that it is a very independent one comparable to the best in the world. Anyone who takes time to do the homework would be intelligent enough to come to their own conclusions, whatever they may be and need not take my or anyone's words or quotes. MKR At 08:56 AM 3/13/1998 -0500, you wrote: >On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 3:04 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] >wrote: > >>>>>Dear Paul: > >As I recall, the founder and some of his assistants were prosecuted for very >serious capital crimes even though they were finally acquitted. > >This happended in India which has a very independent judicial system >comparable to the best in the world. > >mkr > >------------ > >Not quite so, because they had to bring in an international jurist from Canada, >the very eminent Me C Sheppard who prepared a report for the International >Commission of Jurists (Geneva) and International League of the Rights of Man >(New York). In addition the eminent Mr William T Wells QC of the British Bar >also prepared an entirely independent report (the 1977 Wells Report). > >Wells wrote: > >"... a question sa to the satisfactory nature of the trial remains clearly in >one's mind, particularly when it is remembered that, with the Ananda Marga and >its offshoots and members in effect outlawed it was almost impossible for the >defence to call witnesses." > >Of course, it didn't matter at the end of the day because Sarkar was acquitted >on all charges. > >I note that the Secretary-General of the International Commission of Jurists >wrote in a minute of 27 August 1976: > >"These findings make all the more cogent the findings made by Mr. Sheppard as >to the difficulties confronting the defence. The political overtones to the >trial and its handling in the press appear regrettable, to say the least. The >difficulties put in the way of releasing Ananda Marga funds, or allowing the >transfer of fund from abroad, to pay for the legal costs of the defence seem >indefensible. It is to be hoped that this bureacratic obstruction, whch is >what it is assumed to be, will be removed without delay." > >Finally, it should be noted that many organisations and persons have stood up >for justice and equity in society, and been condemned for doing so by the >political powers. Yet they fight to win victory and make sacrifices for others >and human welfare. This is nothing new and is certainly nothing to be feared. > The great preceptor Lord Krsna never had any qualm in this regard and neither >does Ananda Marga. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 09:17:02 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Message-ID: <350A9F6E.20C@eden.com> We are seeing the evolution of Internet as a medium of cheap mass distribution of information at no cost (other than your computer and your time and your interests) to the consumer. What print media or TV dare not print or say, Internet provides unrestricted access. Money and power of organizations in the past have put a muzzle on what the public was told. No more. Just yesterday night I found that one site posted many pages of the papers filed by Paula Jones attorneys. This morning I found that ABC news and other sites are going to make the entire 500 page document accessible to anyone in the world. You don't have to pay a subscription or membership fee to access any of these sites. Access is *free*. So the poor and rich alike have unrestricted access. (Poor can go to their local libraries and acces Internet.) This again just simply shows where the information revolution based on Internet is going. Those who have grown up in the controlled/moderated/censored environment may not like what they see. But Internet is here to stay. (Last week I saw a comment that like multiple TV sets in homes, we are looking for a time soon when each family will have multiple computers with access to Internet.) We can just use our imagination where Internet revolution is heading. My 0.02 mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:23:11 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: How much is how much?? Message-ID: In message <3507F874.D0B5A29F@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > Have they? Or have they put time and energy into other pursuits, for >which the development of siddhi's was a side effect? They claim, at least, the >latter, and don't enjoin people from doing that. My experience would confirm that the pursuit of Truth (of which there is no religion higher than) may bring siddhis as a side efect; sometimes useful sometimes not. Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:18:09 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1455 Message-ID: <8G6OYWAhdJC1EwKW@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Jaqtarin Triele writes >Meeeeoooowww. >Jaqi. > >P.S. I have to agree that Alan may have a point, however, cats also >have a high degree of desire for basic things. Their stomachs often >outweigh any kind of moral decision, as is with most animals, even the >most loyal dog. I guess my question is, what is the higher manas to >everyone. Is it that which bestows upon us moral values? Or perhaps >the ability to observe moral values? I guess my question is, how does >the migher manas manifest itself within us? How do we express it? >How would the cat express it? Purrrrrrrrrrr ..... Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:22:48 -0500 From: jim meier Subject: Niemoeller quote re: digest 1459 Message-ID: <199803130824_MC2-369D-F103@compuserve.com> They first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up -- because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up -- because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up -- because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up -- because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me -- and by that time no one was left to speak up for me. -- Pastor Martin Niemoeller (Nazi victim) This is available in poster form from NORTHERN SUN, PRODUCTS FOR PROGRESSIVES; catalog 800 258 8579; www.northernsun.com Nothern Sun offers a variety of buttons, shirts, cards, etc., many with humorous/witty positions. I have several in my workplace as "Goodwill alternatives" to the typical motivational corporate art. Please note: this is a catalog for people who are generally pro- choices-generally- labeled -as-leftist/liberal. Political conservatives might be offended by the offering of a T-Shirt with John Stuart Mill's famous quotation, "Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people... it is true that that most stupid people are conservative." Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 23:08:59 +1000 From: Dieter Dambiec Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1451 Message-ID: <01BD4EE3.01C6F240.u961309@student.canberra.edu.au> On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 3:04 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] wrote: >>>>Dear Paul: As I recall, the founder and some of his assistants were prosecuted for very serious capital crimes even though they were finally acquitted. This happended in India which has a very independent judicial system comparable to the best in the world. mkr Not quite so, because they had to bring in an international jurist from Canada, the very eminent Me C Sheppard who prepared a report for the International Commission of Jurists (Geneva) and International League of the Rights of Man (New York). In addition the eminent Mr William T Wells QC of the British Bar also prepared an entirely independent report (the 1977 Wells Report). Wells wrote: "... a question sa to the satisfactory nature of the trial remains clearly in one's mind, particularly when it is remembered that, with the Ananda Marga and its offshoots and members in effect outlawed it was almost impossible for the defence to call witnesses." Of course, it didn't matter at the end of the day because Sarkar was acquitted on all charges. I note that the Secretary-General of the International Commission of Jurists wrote in a minute of 27 August 1976: "These findings make all the more cogent the findings made by Mr. Sheppard as to the difficulties confronting the defence. The political overtones to the trial and its handling in the press appear regrettable, to say the least. The difficulties put in the way of releasing Ananda Marga funds, or allowing the transfer of fund from abroad, to pay for the legal costs of the defence seem indefensible. It is to be hoped that this bureacratic obstruction, whch is what it is assumed to be, will be removed without delay." Finally, it should be noted that many organisations and persons have stood up for justice and equity in society, and been condemned for doing so by the political powers. Yet they fight to win victory and make sacrifices for others and human welfare. This is nothing new and is certainly nothing to be feared. The great preceptor Lord Krsna never had any qualm in this regard and neither does Ananda Marga. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:40:41 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Manifesto 3 Message-ID: <199803131440.JAA29578@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> This manifesto says so many things that I think are dangerous to the Theosophical movement that I cannot resist replying in some detail. Mr. Farthing has been kind and helpful to me in my work through assisting in the India Office Library research of Tony Hern, and wrote a sympathetic review of TMR. So I regret differing so sharply with his views, and would remain silent did I not think them typical of an emerging dogmatism in the TS. According to theos-l@vnet.net: > [P81.] This was certainly the case in the early days of the 20th century. > It was almost vehemently stressed then that there was no such thing as a > definite 'theosophical' system of thought, knowledge or teaching. The great > fear was of 'dogmatism'. which was hypocritical then because anyone who didn't buy the Besant/Leadbeater party line was ostracised. > > [P82.] This word, however, was, and still is in places, wrongly applied. A > dogma means an obligatory belief and no such thing is imposed on > Theosophical Society members. Imposition can be subtle as well as overt. I've never seen even subtle imposition of obligatory beliefs at the *local* level of TS activity, but it's getting more and more overt at the national and international levels. What do we mean by "obligatory?" Nothing is obligatory for *membership*. But to be treated with respect and inclusiveness by the leadership, a whole range of dogmatic beliefs are obligatory. This does not mean that there are not > authoritative statements of fact such as those given us by the Masters, who > claim to know what they speak or write about, i.e. they are not > speculating, voicing opinions or advancing theories. People who claim that their statements are not speculation, opinion or theory, but pure fact, are a dime a dozen. The genuine original programme of the TS was absolutely opposed to treating any pronouncements from anyone as authoritative. There is abundant documentation of this truth. > > [P83.] All beliefs concerning Theosophy and the Theosophical Society ought > seriously to be questioned against what can easily be discovered of the > original teachings and intentions for the Society. A serious perusal of > THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY will do this. They also ought to be questioned seriously against all other knowledge prior or subsequent to HPB and the Mahatma letters, if the TS is to be true to its mission. > snip > enduring influence by way of his writings, is suspect. It must be > recognized that these writings are 'theosophically' defective and > misleading. To be frank, I think they're worthless-- but don't want the TS leadership to officially recognize anything as "theosophically defective and misleading." It's not the Society's business to determine any such thing. snip-- agree with separation from ES, LCC, and Co-Masonry > > [P93.] The Society has its own special message to promulgate. This > message only exists in the writings of HPB and in the Mahatma Letters. !?!?!?!?! There are probably several dozen passages I could cite that would contradict this assertion, right from the horses' mouths. And maybe an equal number that might seem to support it. Unfortunately, this seems to be gaining influence as a view in the Society, and it's fatal to freedom of thought. This > message in its completeness (as far as it was given out) is unique. Highly arguable, as it can be shown to correlate with a great many sources that HPB herself alluded to. > > [P94.] The future direction of the Society must therefore include: > > [P95.] 1) The eradication of the 'make-believe' Leadbeater influence - in > all departments including literature, and severance from the Society of all > other organizations, i.e. the Liberal Catholic Church and Co-Masonry. Much as the CWL influence disgusts me, I will fight against any effort to "eradicate" it which smacks of the Inquisition. Publicly discuss it, yes. Let people know all the contradictions and all the evidence concerning CWL, yes. Eradicate his influence? It's not the Society's business to set about to do any such thing, any more than it was right to treat him as a sacred cow all these years in order to preserve said influence. > > [P96.] 2) A thorough examination of all literature purporting to be > 'theosophical', and a brave declaration, and no further promotion, of any > which is not wholly consonant with the original teachings. Astoundingly dogmatic. Who, pray tell, are the authority figures who get to decide for the rest of us what is and is not wholly consonant, and what gives them the right to dictate to us? This is no > proscription but all books purporting to be theosophical which strictly are > not should be clearly labeled or marked that they are the author's views on > the subject and not necessarily authentic. Members are, of course, free to > read what they like but they can be warned, if not guided. The section in > any Theosophical Society library purporting to be theosophical literature > should be segregated from other material offered, be clearly marked and the > books given prominence on book lists, catalogues, etc. The librarian in me points out that the segregation and labeling of "accepted" and "suspect" literature is a profound violation of intellectual freedom. > snip > > [P99.] 5) Commercialism in any form, i.e. book selling or publication as > such, without specific reference to the promotion of a knowledge of > Theosophy, is not part of the legitimate activities of the Society. Tell that to HPB who advertised non-theosophical books in her magazines, and reviewed them favorably, etc. > 'Fringe' literature can be obtained in ordinary bookshops or from other > organizations, e.g. the Arcane School, the Anthroposophical Society, etc. The mentality that decides Bailey and Steiner are "fringe" while their own favorite post-HPB authors are "mainstream" is responsible for driving many people away from the Society. The Baileyites and Steinerites are dogmatic about their own stuff being authoritative. The TS is called upon to be open, eclectic, and nondogmatic. > This recommendation is made with our second object specifically in mind. > Study of comparative religion is encouraged by the Society but it does not > have to publish or supply the books. Saying it does not have to is no argument that it shouldn't. > snip > There is obviously now no corporate connection with the Masters so that > that 'make-believe' can be dispensed with. The E.S. study should be > confined to the Master or HPB writings. The Society has no other > Initiate-inspired literature. While I certainly concur that the ES has no real connection to the Masters, if they want to think so that's fine. As far as Initiate-inspired literature, HPB and Olcott certainly had a much vaster view of what that includes than Mr. Farthing does. > snip > > [P108.] This was the position when HPB made some of that knowledge public: > it was much resented even by Subba Rao whose Master incidentally was the > same as HPB's. All extant scriptures are exoteric even though in their > mystical content they reflect much of what is in Theosophy. All extant Theosophical works are exoteric too. snip > > [P112.] For example, the Hindu system is fivefold, as far as the human > principles and the skandhas are concerned, whereas the theosophical system > is sevenfold. The planes of Nature are sevenfold, with each having a > corresponding level of consciousness. So some say. Others say differently. The Society is not in the business of dictating which model is correct, but rather in comparing and contrasting them. > snip > > their profundity and inner meaning is completely lost. Such an attempt to > 'popularize' Theosophy in this way, to make it appeal to people who > otherwise cannot comprehend it, is virtual sacrilege. What in the world can one say to this? I consider it a sacrilege to treat HPB's work, which she herself said was not free from error or authoritative, as if it were, and to condemn efforts to make it more accessible to the public. This is elitism pure and simple, which the TS has too much of already without manifestos calling for more. > I see this manifesto as a sure recipe for shrinking the TS to a tenth its current size and making it the carcass stranded on a sandbank that HPB warned about in the Key to Theosophy as the inevitable result of dogmatism. PJ, aghast From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:39:28 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Local health vs. global sickness Message-ID: <199803131539.KAA05025@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Last weekend I went to the first meeting of the Charlotte Study Center since I'd become a member. I'd visited as a guest a couple of times and enjoyed it, and when I decided to rejoin the TSA it was combined with commitment to be active in a local group. There were a couple new to Theosophy there; we chatted for half an hour, then I talked about Cayce and meditation, and our discussion started at the Meads' house and went on in a pizza place nearby. I was quite struck by the same taste, or vibes, that I'd felt in every encounter with a local TS group in my life. That includes the DC lodge, Maryland Lodge, Atlanta Lodge, and the Oakland Study Center. There's a kind of effortless flow, an easy communication, a universal eagerness to explore new ideas and expand one's horizons. Never a trace of power-tripping, or proselytizing for "my way the right way" to understand Theosophy, or looking down on anyone for not knowing or believing the same things. An open, friendly, curious, supportive, eclectic, expansive kind of group vibration that is unique in my experience to the TSA. Totally welcoming, totally laid back. That, to me, is Theosophy in action at the local level. And when I've met folks at Wheaton as individuals that's mostly how they've been. Yet, the recent manifesto from Geoffrey Farthing, a onetime General Secretary of the English Section (I think) gives a diametrically opposed flavor or vibration, and one that resonates with what I've seen from John Algeo and Radha Burnier. Lots of power tripping, lots of proselytizing for "my way is the right way," lots of looking down on people for lack of knowledge or different beliefs, little openness, not much friendliness, lack of curiosity, unsupportive, narrow rather than eclectic, constrictive rather than expansive. Quite unwelcoming, totally up tight. That, to me, is Theosophy at the level of national and international leadership. Why is this? Most other groups I've experienced, like the Baha'is and the ARE, are pretty much the same vibes locally and nationally. We talked about this at the Study Center and I was far from alone in the observation that TS is at its best locally and its worst at "higher" levels. But no one had any theories as to why this would be so. (Of course the ES is presumed to have something to do with it, but that's more a "how" explanation than a "why" one.) Makes me feel like a manic depressive to swing between high hope for the TSA when experiencing it locally, and despair when experiencing the mindsets of the leadership. (A couple of super dogmatic pieces in the latest Theosophist are typical.) Any speculations, observations, contradictions hereby invited. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:46:58 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Manifesto 3 Message-ID: <35097112.237208C7@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > > > [P95.] 1) The eradication of the 'make-believe' Leadbeater influence - in > > all departments including literature, and severance from the Society of all > > other organizations, i.e. the Liberal Catholic Church and Co-Masonry. > > Much as the CWL influence disgusts me, I will fight against any > effort to "eradicate" it which smacks of the Inquisition. > Publicly discuss it, yes. Let people know all the contradictions > and all the evidence concerning CWL, yes. Eradicate his > influence? It's not the Society's business to set about to do > any such thing, any more than it was right to treat him as a > sacred cow all these years in order to preserve said influence. Emily Sellon once told me how she originally became attracted to Theosophy by the more fanciful writings of Leadbeater, which she later thought of as fairy tales; not true in and of themselves, but with a point that is true. Sometimes, in determining WHY something is bull, you discover the truth. I suspect that parts of the SECRET DOCTRINE have this specific intent. For example, the infamous "Hyptnotism is Satanism" page header, and the subsequent quote seemed patently false on the surface. In researching exactly what she was saying, I learned what I consider an important truth that, while we should not take on the karma of another, we do have an obligation to reduce the suffering that karma causes, if possible. > > [P99.] 5) Commercialism in any form, i.e. book selling or publication as > > such, without specific reference to the promotion of a knowledge of > > Theosophy, is not part of the legitimate activities of the Society. > > Tell that to HPB who advertised non-theosophical books in her > magazines, and reviewed them favorably, etc. Not to mention her declaration that it is better to charge for services than it is to beg for donations (I have quoted her exact statement here at least once in the last couple of months). > > 'Fringe' literature can be obtained in ordinary bookshops or from other > > organizations, e.g. the Arcane School, the Anthroposophical Society, etc. > > The mentality that decides Bailey and Steiner are "fringe" while > their own favorite post-HPB authors are "mainstream" is > responsible for driving many people away from the Society. The > Baileyites and Steinerites are dogmatic about their own stuff > being authoritative. The TS is called upon to be open, eclectic, > and nondogmatic. I have come to at least one conclusion that a lot of my own anti-Bailey feelings come from my Jewish upbringing. First of all, she was a near-fundamentalist Christian (Leadeater's Christian symbolism is also a turn-off for me). Second is the attitude among many Baileyites that Blavatsky started Theosophy, but Bailey completed it, which smacks of the Christian telling the Jew that they are not a true Jew, because Jesus completed what Judaism started, and you need to be a Christian to be a Jew. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:58:21 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Local health vs. global sickness Message-ID: <350973BD.D0FD75BF@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > Why is this? Most other groups I've experienced, like the > Baha'is and the ARE, are pretty much the same vibes locally and > nationally. I am NOT saying that this is necessarily the case for local and national, but it is an interesting case of that kind of difference. Virtually all practicing physicians that I have met are mainly interested in the health of their patients. But if you look at physicians who are on the political side of things, either as public health officials or in physican's trade unions like the AMA, you find that they are far more interested in themselves and their own incomes than they are in the health of others (although there are notable exceptions, like ex-Surgeon General Koop). The probable reason for this is that doctors who are truly interested in the health of others are probably too busy trying to help sick people to spend time on politics. It also might have to do with the type of Theosophist who actually tries to practice what s/he preaches. There is the joke: "A Theosophist and a Christian are walking down the road together. At a fork, they see the roadsign, and become very excited. The Christian runs down the fork to the left, while the Theosophist runs down the fork to the right. Another man was walking some distance behind them, and observed their behavior. Curious, he walked to the fork, and looked at the roadsign. The sign to the left said, 'Heaven'. The sign to the right said, 'Discussion about Heaven'." Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:28:16 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Farthing Manifesto - Part 3 of 3 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980311232816.00843850@mail.eden.com> Part 3 of 3 [P81.] This was certainly the case in the early days of the 20th century. It was almost vehemently stressed then that there was no such thing as a definite 'theosophical' system of thought, knowledge or teaching. The great fear was of 'dogmatism'. [P82.] This word, however, was, and still is in places, wrongly applied. A dogma means an obligatory belief and no such thing is imposed on Theosophical Society members. This does not mean that there are not authoritative statements of fact such as those given us by the Masters, who claim to know what they speak or write about, i.e. they are not speculating, voicing opinions or advancing theories. [P83.] All beliefs concerning Theosophy and the Theosophical Society ought seriously to be questioned against what can easily be discovered of the original teachings and intentions for the Society. A serious perusal of THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY will do this. [P84.] What is said above about 'make-believe' in the Society also applies to the E.S. The implied connection of it with the Masters through the Outer Head is an example. There is in fact no such connection. [P85.] Furthermore, the implication by secrecy, or even privacy, that it possesses some esoteric knowledge which it can impart to members is also 'make-believe'. It makes an appeal to would-be aspirants to chelaship and imposes some preliminary disciplines but omits the necessity for hard work in studying and assimilating the eternal verities of Theosophy as given by the Masters. THE FUTURE [P86.] First the Adyar Society must take an honest look, fearlessly, at the present position against the background outlined above. [P87.] Loyalties to past leaders, to their personal influence and their teachings, must become secondary issues. This means an acknowledgment that all that happened to the Society as a result of C.W. Leadbeater's influence on it, directly or indirectly, his influence on Annie Besant and his enduring influence by way of his writings, is suspect. It must be recognized that these writings are 'theosophically' defective and misleading. [P88.] Annie Besant's influence, by reason of her long term as President, must also be very objectively assessed. Whatever her personal integrity she was obviously misled and mistaken, witness the Krishnamurti fiasco, her espousal of Co-Masonry as part of the Theosophical Society and her handling of the Judge 'case' with its disastrous results. [P89.] For most members a change of mind or basic beliefs will at best be painful and at worst difficult if not impossible. This means that only a section of the existing membership can, in the first instance at any rate, be expected to make any radical change, and this section will necessarily include E.S. members who will obviously have their loyalties but they will also presumably have acquired some self-reliance and have learned to think independently. [P90.] Some members already have or will have difficulty with the question of their membership of the Liberal Catholic Church and CoMasonry in the light of their longstanding association with the Society. Many of these institutions have in fact been regarded as 'theosophical', even theosophy itself. [P91.] However, it is necessary that the Society should formally declare that henceforth neither of them is really any part of, or has any special association with, the Theosophical Society. [P92.] This does not mean that members are not free to join the Liberal Catholic or any other Church, or become Masons or members of any other institution they wish, provided that they are not inimical or antithetical to Theosophy, and still be members of the Society. [P93.] The Society has its own special message to promulgate. This message only exists in the writings of HPB and in the Mahatma Letters. This message in its completeness (as far as it was given out) is unique. [P94.] The future direction of the Society must therefore include: [P95.] 1) The eradication of the 'make-believe' Leadbeater influence - in all departments including literature, and severance from the Society of all other organizations, i.e. the Liberal Catholic Church and Co-Masonry. [P96.] 2) A thorough examination of all literature purporting to be 'theosophical', and a brave declaration, and no further promotion, of any which is not wholly consonant with the original teachings. This is no proscription but all books purporting to be theosophical which strictly are not should be clearly labeled or marked that they are the author's views on the subject and not necessarily authentic. Members are, of course, free to read what they like but they can be warned, if not guided. The section in any Theosophical Society library purporting to be theosophical literature should be segregated from other material offered, be clearly marked and the books given prominence on book lists, catalogues, etc. [P97.] 3) The retention and promotion of the three objects of the Society plus an active promotion of Theosophy as given by the Masters. [P98.] 4) At all Theosophical Society Centers, Headquarters, etc., there should be someone qualified to discuss Theosophy, say what it is, and recommend books to enquirers. This service should as far as possible be available at all times or a notice displayed as to where it can be obtained. [P99.] 5) Commercialism in any form, i.e. book selling or publication as such, without specific reference to the promotion of a knowledge of Theosophy, is not part of the legitimate activities of the Society. 'Fringe' literature can be obtained in ordinary bookshops or from other organizations, e.g. the Arcane School, the Anthroposophical Society, etc. This recommendation is made with our second object specifically in mind. Study of comparative religion is encouraged by the Society but it does not have to publish or supply the books. [P100.] 6) Professionalism in the society should be examined. Whereas 'goods and services' must obviously be paid for, Theosophy as such cannot be sold. Should exponents be paid? If so, to what extent? [P101.] 7) Serious study of the 'prime' literature, whatever else is done in Lodges, at Centers, etc., should be encouraged and all facilities provided. Facilities should be provided for meditation - quiet and solitude if possible. Meditation should, however, be 'theosophical', i.e. classical (Patanjali), HPB Diagram, or just silence, not according to local gurus and amateurs with 'special' methods, and NEVER for money. [P102.] 8) The Society will obviously need a group of students dedicated to the study of the literature and to the dissemination of what they discover both in the writings, and in themselves, as they progress. This can be supplied by some of the existing members of the E.S. At present there are no 'esoteric' leaders or teachers in the Society; it will therefore in this respect have to 'lift itself up by its own boot-laces' as the expression has it. [P103.] There is no justification for secrecy within the E.S. or the Society but on occasion private members meetings could be efficacious for discussion, exchange of information, mutual encouragement, etc. There is obviously now no corporate connection with the Masters so that that 'make-believe' can be dispensed with. The E.S. study should be confined to the Master or HPB writings. The Society has no other Initiate-inspired literature. [P104.] Where the E.S. members feel they need inspirational literature apart from books like THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, LIGHT ON THE PATH and some of the classical mystical works like THE BHAGAVAD GITA, as this is a personal matter they should be free to discover their own. Discrimination as to what is consonant with theosophical teachings will grow. Let students beware of self-styled teachers and of themselves posing as such. They will know when they really are qualified - they will have been 'authorized'. Let none pretend. [P105.] 9) The Society's relation to 'computerization', the Internet, etc., needs serious examination and Sections given guidelines. ABOUT THEOSOPHY [P106.] HPB used the words Occultism, Esotericism, Esoteric Science, etc., as synonymous with Theosophy. In THE SECRET DOCTRINE she states several times that some of the teaching given there had never been made public before. These statements indicate that the teachings included more material than was contained in any published religious or philosophic literature. [P107.] This distinction has been almost entirely overlooked. The great Hindu scriptures have been taken virtually to be Theosophy. Initiated Brahmins know this is not the case but they keep their esoteric knowledge to themselves. [P108.] This was the position when HPB made some of that knowledge public: it was much resented even by Subba Rao whose Master incidentally was the same as HPB's. All extant scriptures are exoteric even though in their mystical content they reflect much of what is in Theosophy. [P109.] Such treatises as THE BHAGAVAD GITA, the Puranas, many Sufi writings and other world acknowledged scriptural writings are beautiful and inspiring, potentially capable of leading aspirants on to the highest experiences. [P110.] Neither they nor Hinduism nor Buddhism, in their published form, are 'esoteric', nor of course is the now published THE SECRET DOCTRINE except that its prolonged study changes our modes of thinking and understanding, giving us insights we could otherwise not get. [P111.] What do the theosophical writings include that others do not? While the differences might appear superficial in themselves, in their totality they are not. [P112.] For example, the Hindu system is fivefold, as far as the human principles and the skandhas are concerned, whereas the theosophical system is sevenfold. The planes of Nature are sevenfold, with each having a corresponding level of consciousness. [P113.] In Theosophy Karma is a comprehensive Law applying universally, not just to human beings by way of reward or retribution. Theosophy contains the vast evolutionary scheme by Chains, Globes, Rounds and Races which process by analogy applies to all manifest things, e.g. all those 'things' comprising the kingdoms of Nature. Incidentally, properly there are no 'things'; every 'thing' is a life. [P114.] Some 'esoteric' systems of the past, notably the original Kabala, had reflections, in some instances almost exact, of the theosophical scheme, but they were neither so comprehensive nor so explicit. In THE SECRET DOCTRINE for example, HPB relates much of the theosophical teaching to the principal world religions and explains much of their symbolism and practices. [P115.] Some of this is also dealt with in ISIS UNVEILED wherein the student can find exciting insights and many explanations of even obscure ancient writings. It is a mine of information leading up to the comprehensive and relatively systematized exposition in THE SECRET DOCTRINE of as much of the Ancient Wisdom as could be published then. [P116.] All this knowledge was in addition to that of the 'mystical' information and teachings in exoteric literature. The outpouring of information and teaching given in THE SECRET DOCTRINE pushed forward the boundaries of knowledge several steps beyond what was then otherwise available to the layman. [P117.] To a very large extent this has been ignored by the world and much more sadly even by the majority of members of the Theosophical Society, who according to THE KEY have the special responsibility "of letting it be known that such a thing as Theosophy exists". They cannot possibly do that if they themselves do not know what it is. [P118.] The Maha Chohan uses the expression "to popularize a knowledge of Theosophy". Where this has been heeded at all it has been taken to mean the rendering of the vast and erudite teachings of Theosophy into a form suitable for assimilation by the general populace. [P119.] Quite obviously this cannot be done and any attempt to do so must at least oversimplify the grand concepts and at worst dilute them until their profundity and inner meaning is completely lost. Such an attempt to 'popularize' Theosophy in this way, to make it appeal to people who otherwise cannot comprehend it, is virtual sacrilege. [P120.] This, however, is a tactic used to increase membership of the Society. The Society's three objects are popular, for anybody to subscribe to, but apart from letting it be known as widely as possible that it exists, Theosophy itself cannot be popularized. [P121.] This is something that has to be accepted when considering the future of the Society. We must never forget the nature of the original writings. No attempt was made even in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, to 'simplify' or 'dilute' the subject matter. They were written to appeal to the 'highest minds', who in turn, as far as possible, would disseminate their content to others, i.e the grand ideas would percolate down and so influence all society. [P122.] A consequence of the virtual substitution of the original literature by that of the second generation writers has meant that there has been very little follow-up material in the HPB/Masters vein. There is, however, enough to introduce the subject to intending students. [P123.] To comprehend Theosophy one has to make a serious and prolonged effort. In Bowen's Notes "Madame Blavatsky on How to Study Theosophy", HPB explained to him, "This mode of thinking is what the Indians call Jnana Yoga" and then mentioned the likely experiences that may arise. [P124.] But nothing can happen without the effort. The Theosophical Society was founded at the instigation of the Masters with a sublime object in view: the salvation of the whole human race by a 'popularization' of their teachings. Surely we can attempt to do this to the limit of our capacity. Let us try! End of Part 3 of 3 ============ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:01:38 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: How much is how much?? Message-ID: > Virtually all the literature considers siddhi's to be "spiritual dead > ends". They may be useful, but they do not lead to spiritual growth, at > least not directly (check out Blavatsky's cautionary tale, "An Enchanted > Life", located in NIGHTMARE TALES, and also somewhere in the COLLECTED > WRITINGS, for an example). While this is indeed true, the thing that's always given me a good giggle is that the people who *wrote* all that literature, or at least those who everyone quotes when warning against "siddhi's", are almost to the person people who have put time and energy into the successful development of the abilities they tell everyone else not to touch. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:46:43 -0600 (CST) From: dlb3600@UTARLG.UTA.EDU Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1459 Message-ID: As a new member of theos-l, I thought it would be pertinent to explain my reasons for joining, as I doubt anyone here knows me personally. I have made it my life long quest to understand the nature of the human soul (in its complexity), and I thought that theosophical scholars might be able to assist me in that study. I have attained some information from personal experience and research, but I doubt that the resources available to me will be able to assist me in the near future (as I have basically read everything which I think contains information pertaining to the subject I'm studying) Sadly, my resources do not include many theosophical documents, and I have had to rely on the internet for the majority of knowledge from various theosophical societies and documents. Even then, I don't think I understand it all. What is "Theosophy", and how can it be defined in terms of the human soul? What is the soul, according to theosophy? I hope you will assist me in answering these questions. The responses may be personally sent to me. I do not fully understand theosophical vocabularies, so please answer in a way that I can understand. Thank you. Daniel Bates Purity, Love, Truth, Divinity From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:00:04 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: How much is how much?? Message-ID: <3507F874.D0B5A29F@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > > Virtually all the literature considers siddhi's to be "spiritual dead > > ends". They may be useful, but they do not lead to spiritual growth, at > > least not directly (check out Blavatsky's cautionary tale, "An Enchanted > > Life", located in NIGHTMARE TALES, and also somewhere in the COLLECTED > > WRITINGS, for an example). > > While this is indeed true, the thing that's always given me a good giggle > is that the people who *wrote* all that literature, or at least those who > everyone quotes when warning against "siddhi's", are almost to the person > people who have put time and energy into the successful development of the > abilities they tell everyone else not to touch. -JRC Have they? Or have they put time and energy into other pursuits, for which the development of siddhi's was a side effect? They claim, at least, the latter, and don't enjoin people from doing that. Also note that if siddhi's do come prematurely, then some effort should be expended to control them properly and prevent their misuse. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:00:02 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: regarding online theosophical materials Message-ID: <199803121552.JAA22558@proteus.imagiware.com> Daniel: There are two Internet sites with a good collection of online theosophical books and literature. You might want to take a look at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/tup-onl.htm and at: http://www.blavatsky.org Then if you see something interesting, you could quote a little and raise some questions on one of the theosophical mailing lists like theos-l. Really open-ended questions like "What is Theosophy?" do deserve an answer, but require a lot of writing and discussion, and come up frequently enough that they really should be treated in a FAQ. -- Eldon ---- >my resources do not include many theosophical documents, and >I have had to rely on the internet for the majority of >knowledge from various theosophical societies and documents. ... >What is "Theosophy" ... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:49:45 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Animals; Farthing Message-ID: <199803130049.TAA26333@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Thanks, Mark, for explaining your meaning more fully. While I don't accept the Theosophical septenary model except as one among many, and therefore can't participate wholeheartedly in a discussion as if I thought it a genuine map of reality, your use of that model makes sense within the universe of discourse at hand. Bart, your comment about 2-3 year old intelligence being the limit observed in animals conforms to what I've read about parrots, apes, etc. in terms of language use. But how much do we really know about cetaceans and their language? There is perhaps a lot more there than we have observed in mammals and birds. Here I'll admit to relying on "vibes" and intuition rather than solid evidence. As for Geoffrey Farthing's "manifesto," it is so full of assumptions that it would be very hard to respond to without going into great length. I'll just comment that his belief that Annie Besant was somehow going against the Masters and HPB by pursuing politics is hardly justified. He takes a single quote and ignores many others that show both HPB and her Masters to have been keenly interested in politics. My opinion is that Annie Besant screwed up royally in her leadership of the TS, but did pretty close to what HPB and her Masters would have wanted as a leader of the Indian Freedom Movement and in her work for education. It's fine for people within or outside the Adyar TS to devote critical examination to the claims of Krishnamurti, Besant, Leadbeater, Bailey, etc. But when they treat HPB as beyond that kind of critical examination, it looks pretty darn hypocritical to me. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:50:09 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Neo-Human Analysis (1457) Message-ID: Carrot Cake: >Dieter: Once again, I don't mean to be rude, but it sounded to me >like you were waiting for the next comet to come around, if you know >what I mean. Our human lives depend on destroying other creatures to >nourish ourselves. It is one of the evils we have to cope with. I >think I understand your turmoil, but dwelling too much on necessary >evils isn't going to help any of us, especially you, in the end. >Think about this...if the human race died out anytime soon, with all >of the chemical, biological, nuclear, etc. etc. factories and >treatment plants, the ecosystem would be destroyed within 5 or 6 years >(my own uneducated guess). No animals. No plants. No humans. But >hey, the rocks might be happy with the situation, even though acid >rain would be beating down on them all the time. We must destroy and >kill in order to create and preserve. It is a vicious cycle that has >been known of for millenia. Its not going to change; at least not by >an act of humanity. Hey, orange vegetable, give Dieter a break. Of course, I'm not surprised that the name Dieter is associated with terms like Neo-Humanism. Have you ever heard of the joke about Dieter from Sprocket, the avant-garde artiste (a Saturday Night Live character)? Sorry, Dieter. :o) Seriously, going beyond the off-putting term of Neo-Humanism, I think Dieter has a point. Sure, we all have to kill in differing levels to survive on earth, but we also have a responsibility on this planet as individuals. We should appreciate everything that we take of this earth. It's good to look at your food and realize where it all comes from, and the sacrifices for those things to reach your plate. Suppose you were to travel to a parallel universe where the delicacy was barbequed children because they have not reached the sentient level of adults? How would you convince people to stop eating them? Anyway, I can see beyond Dieter's terms because I've been reading too many art manuals. The heart of it is good. Now, I am not advocating for or against anything, but Dieter does have a point, too. Go ahead and keep on driving your big American car. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:50:37 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Manas Message-ID: Karat: >I guess my question is, what is the higher manas to >everyone. Is it that which bestows upon us moral values? Or perhaps >the ability to observe moral values? I guess my question is, how does >the migher manas manifest itself within us? How do we express it? >How would the cat express it? Glad to see you back on the list! You can't have delicious carrot cake without the carrot. Stanza VII of our beloved Secret Doctrine I gives us a clue. The "three-fold" refers to the Universal Principles of Father, Mother and Son. The human Monad reflects these three principles. The Father reflects our will and drive, the Mother reflects our psyche, our intuition and inner wisdom, and the Son reflects our ability to relate these experiences. From those come the four lower principles. "The thread" refers to the connection of all of our life cores. Thus, there is actually no real separation between us. Even in reincarnation (if it exists), there is no static substance that reincarnates. The concentration of our experience is the individuating factor, and not the experience itself. For example, note Einstein's theory of relativity. Although, according to Einstein, there is no such thing as simultaneity and each experience is relative to each other, the experience is basically universal. Your time my be painfully slower than mine in my reality, but in all reality, time goes at a regular pace according to each consciousness. Thus, we are all one, and only the focus is individual. "Who forms Manu (the Man) and who forms his body?..." The Seven Lives and the One Life. The Seven Lives are the stages of man's evolution and the One Life is the force of all life. This formation of us humans allows us to make choices that go beyond our animal instinctive habits. It allows us to communicate with each other in complex ways. We are, at varying levels, aware of our choices, ethical choices, e.g.. We are also aware of the impact of our choices. Basically, we are fully self-aware. Thus, Adam and Eve have to cover themselves up in shame. Our ego gives us a structure within which we can work with. Our comprehension allows us to understand, make choices, and relate. Our desire pushes us to move forward. How it compares humans to animals, I think we have to each do our thinking for ourselves. I heard on the news about physically handicapped children being brought into contact with dolphins as part of their therapy. The dolphins knew which part of the body was injured and interacted with the injured part. All this talk about Manas, connection, etc., brings me to something that's been bothering me. It is the duality of to "live and let live" and the controlling factor of "shoulds." If we truly have love and compassion for others, we should be able to see them as part of us. That means we accept them as they are. If you look into the mirror and see yourself, would it not be more loving to say "I'm alright" than to say "I need a nose job?" As students of theosophy, would it not be better to say that everyone has an equal right to spiritual knowledge, that everyone is okay where they are, and for us to have patience with each other as we grow. Should there be guilt about vegetarianism, sex, or frivolous talk? Yes, the reactive thing to do would be to impose rules. However, could there have been other ways of helping guide a student of theosophy, more loving ways of relating to each other? Isn't any exclusion (from a group, e.g.) be against the purpose of theosophy to go beyond the framework of known organized religion and its weaknesses? Also, to be dogmatic to any one point of view without considering others, would be against theosophy's purpose of ultimately looking at the Divine wisdom within ourselves. Theosophy began with the idea of Truth being universal, for everyone, to be discovered everywhere, to be discovered intelligently, without falling into the trap of shutting one's eyes once a source of comfort is found, and without the laziness of letting others do the thinking for you. As with preoccupation with anything, even spirituality, we are so determined in our search that we shun others as being frivolous and as being of the lower level. As the teacher would say, "Go wash your bowl." The lesson is right in front of you, in that humble dishwashing chore. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:32:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: How much is how much?? Message-ID: <19980312033258.15187.rocketmail@send1d.yahoomail.com> ---"Dr. A.M.Bain" wrote: > .. or indeed in *any* path that claims a spiritual or theosophical Truth > as its objective. > > Alan I may not be clear on what, exactly, siddhis are (although they seem to be "super"human abilities), but couldn't they be used to gain furthur insight to spiritual or theosophical truth, and not solely for personal gain? I, for instance, would find it much easier to explain, and convince, others of the truth (although who would ever know that I knew what the truth was) if I could show them how I obtained it, rather than simply stating that I kinda thought it up or read it from a book. The latter, I think, is the main problem with most religions today. Their followers say, "Tis true because it is written." Hate to say it, but I can write too. I can write in allegory too. I can make washing my clothes sound like a religious experience. It is very easy actually. People know this. Religion is being lost today because science proves what it discovers (for the most part) whereas religion can only give what science calls a hypothesis. The public knows that more hypothesis are proven wrong than they are right. In today's world, if you can't show that you know certain unknown truths by "performing" acts of unknown things, you are a fraud. I would love to know the truth, but to me, it is kind of selfish to know the truth and not pursue a way to show an unbelieving society that I have found the true path. So, in that sense, there seem to be two reasons for developing siddhi's. One, perhaps they will help one to discover truth. And two, they will help provide proof to the masses once they are discovered. Personally, I am not pursuing any kind of special powers, for I don't believe that I am ready to take on that responsibility. For that would be, in my opinion, another side of the siddhi. You would be held more responsible, perhaps temporally and cosmically, for your actions with access to such abilities. In my opinion, you would also have more responsibility for your fellow man, for you would no longer have the excuse, "I had no power over that." But at the same time, does having such powers give you judgement over what should occur and what shouldn't. Perhaps it does, particularly if you know the truth. There are a lot of paradoxes in this statement, for I was brainstorming a little bit. Just so Bart knows....:) Karat. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:51:21 -0800 (PST) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1455 Message-ID: <19980312035121.13876.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> > The "relative latency" is, surely, in the eye of the beholder? It is > not impossible to argue that the higher manas of, say, a cat, is so far in > advance of our own that the apparent look of contempt that a cat will > occasionally bestow upon a human might be based upon a superior, not > an inferior development of one of the seven principles, even though > others might be less developed than in the human. > > Alan Ah...I now know what TI is all about. Alan is trying to bring back the old, Egyptian cat-worship. hmmm... :oP Meeeeoooowww. Jaqi. P.S. I have to agree that Alan may have a point, however, cats also have a high degree of desire for basic things. Their stomachs often outweigh any kind of moral decision, as is with most animals, even the most loyal dog. I guess my question is, what is the higher manas to everyone. Is it that which bestows upon us moral values? Or perhaps the ability to observe moral values? I guess my question is, how does the migher manas manifest itself within us? How do we express it? How would the cat express it? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:41:15 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: How much is how much?? Message-ID: <3507676B.248B9496@sprynet.com> Jaqtarin Triele wrote: > I may not be clear on what, exactly, siddhis are (although they seem > to be "super"human abilities), but couldn't they be used to gain > furthur insight to spiritual or theosophical truth, and not solely for > personal gain? I spent a number of years working with brain injured children, using a technique which is based on the natural development of human abilities. There are many abilities which lead to other abilities. For example, when a child crawls on his/her belly across the floor, his/her mouth frequently touches the floor. Because the child has little control over the tongue, the tongue frequently drags along the floor, sending sensations which the brain can eventually interpret. This is the normal way a child learns where the tongue is, and, through natural biofeedback techniques, learns to control it. Notice that children who are put directly into walkers and not allowed to crawl frequenlty develop speech impediments in later life. In any case, there are certain abilities that do not lead to any other abilities. One is the ability to sit up. These are called "neurological dead ends", interesting and possibly even useful, but not leading to any growth. Virtually all the literature considers siddhi's to be "spiritual dead ends". They may be useful, but they do not lead to spiritual growth, at least not directly (check out Blavatsky's cautionary tale, "An Enchanted Life", located in NIGHTMARE TALES, and also somewhere in the COLLECTED WRITINGS, for an example). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:25:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Farthing Manifesto - Part 1 of 3 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980311232552.00848100@mail.eden.com> Hi. The interesting manifesto by Geoffrey A Farthing appeared in THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST and in THEOSOPHY WORLD. This is a copy cut out of THEOSOPHY WORLD by Eldon Tucker. Geoffrey Farthing is a very well known long time Theosophist from England. It is posted in three parts due to its length. I have numbered the paragraphs in sequence so that in any follow-up discussion, they could be easily referenced. I hope it would encourage everyone to discuss many issues that Farthing has raised. As we approach the next millenium, they seem to be appropriate topics to discuss. MKR =============================================== THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AND ITS FUTURE by Geoffrey A. Farthing [from the June 1997 THEOSOPHY WORLD (editor@theosophy.com), reprinted from the May 1997 HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST (high@theosophy.com).] HISTORICAL BACKGROUND [P1.] Towards the end of the 19th century, even though their colleagues in the 'Brotherhood' did not feel that the time was opportune, i.e. that humanity generally had not progressed spiritually enough even though a few may have done so, two Masters of the Wisdom were allowed to make the attempt to make available to mankind in general some of their occult knowledge concerning the nature of existence and man's being. Up till then this had been kept secret. The Theosophical Society, founded in New York in 1875, was formed originally as an association of people interested in spiritualism and psychic phenomena. Its early objects reflected this but they were soon to become, after a few changes, as they are now, with an emphasis on brotherhood. [P2.] The Headquarters of the Society was removed to Bombay in 1880 and then to Adyar in 1883. Although the Masters were emphatic that the Society was not to be a school of Occultism or Magic and that their sole purpose was to benefit mankind at large, they nevertheless in various ways let it be known not only that they were possessed of occult knowledge and power but that they were able and willing to make some of it available to suitable candidates. This was to be done principally in the writings of H.P. Blavatsky, but some information was given directly by the two Masters concerned in their letters to A.P. Sinnett. Some of this knowledge was distinct from that contained in any extant literature at the time, with the exception of some older and/or obscure 'occult' writings. These were mostly unintelligible without the necessary 'keys'. [P3.] It was claimed, however, that the knowledge contained in the new outpouring was the source and origin of all philosophical and religious knowledge, in its pure form. The old scriptures and philosophical writings had been 'contaminated' by human interpretation, additions and alterations. They had to a large extent departed from the pure original and had distorted their meanings. The first major attempt at elucidation of this ancient knowledge was the writing of ISIS UNVEILED by HPB published in 1877, a work of enormous erudition in which 1,330 other works some of great rarity and antiquity were quoted from. It is known that several Masters had a hand in it, providing HPB with much of the information it contains. [P4.] This Ancient Wisdom was later more fully and specifically described in THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P. SINNETT, from which he wrote two books: THE OCCULT WORLD and later ESOTERIC BUDDHISM. [P5.] This latter, although by no means complete or wholly accurate, is important as being the first systematic formulation, in outline, of what was later to become known as Theosophy. The books were published in 1884 and 1885. From 1875 onwards HPB's almost continuous output of articles and letters contained aspects of the teachings. These writings are now collected together and edited in fourteen volumes of Collected Writings. [P6.] HPB was with the Theosophical Society in India for about two years during which time her phenomena and contacts with the Masters were amply demonstrated. A number of people, however, even at Headquarters did not accept these manifestations as genuine. Furthermore, the phenomena were completely beyond the credence of the local church missionaries. [P7.] Some letters purporting to come from HPB addressed to members of the staff at Adyar clearly gave the impression that HPB's phenomena were based on deception. After a lengthy enquiry by an investigator from the Society for Psychical Research who relied much on adverse witnesses and a hand-writing expert he declared HPB to be a fraud. [P8.] This was in a document adopted by the SPR which later became known as the Hodgson Report. It hasbeen repudiated since by a number of investigators, latterly even by the SPR. One tragic outcome of the report was that HPB, who in any case at the time was in poor health, was advised to leave Adyar. [P9.] After leaving India HPB traveled to England via Germany and Belgium. During this time she was occupied as and when health and other circumstances permitted, in writing THE SECRET DOCTRINE which was published in 1888 in London. [P10.] This was her most important theosophical work. It is®MDUL¯ ®MDNM¯an exposition of all of the Ancient Wisdom that the Masters were then prepared to make public. It is an enormous work in which 1,100 other works are referred to and in which ancient (and modern) religions and philosophies are explained and form a background to an immense system of knowledge of the whole universal scene and man in it. [P11.] HPB was miraculously kept alive by her Master on two or three occasions of dire illness, to complete the work which was followed two years later by THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. [P12.] On a number of occasions it was stressed that HPB was the Masters' sole agent. With her departure from Adyar their influence there ceased. One consequence of this was that most of their Chelas 'disappeared' (including Damodar who never returned to the Society from Tibet). [P13.] We also have her positive statement that, should she for any reason cease to act as the Masters' agent, there would be no more contact with them (see M.L.136, 2nd and 3rd editions). [P14.] All this seems to have been forgotten or ignored later. A number of people both within the Society and without, e.g. Alice Bailey, later claimed to have contact with the Masters and to have received communications from them. [P15.] These communications, some of them very copious and impressive, were, however, received psychically or 'channeled': very importantly they were all uncorroborated. [P16.] Communications through psychic mediums was not the method used by the Masters. These facts, the nature of the message and the special position of HPB, are of prime importance in the consideration of what followed in the early 20th century, of the present state of the Society and its successful launch into the 21st century. ANNIE BESANT [P17.] In the latter years of HPB's life a significant event was that Annie Besant was welcomed with open arms into the Theosophical Society by HPB who saw in her an exceptional and able helper. She was later admitted to HPB's Inner Group of twelve. [P18.] A reference to Annie Besant in THE MAHATMA LETTERS indicates that she was known to the Masters; however, there is no reference to her ever becoming a chela, although she did receive in 1900 what seems to be an authentic letter from the Masters. There is no other evidence, apart from her own inferences, that she had any contact with them. [P19.] Had Annie Besant been a chela her 'magnetization' by Chakravati, ostensibly to 'align her principles', described in an eye witness statement (1895) by Dr Archibald Keightly, would have severed any relations she may have had with her Master. [P20.] After HPB's death Annie Besant let it be inferred, in assuming the "Outer Headship" of the E.S., that she was in touch with the Masters. [P21.] She also introduced Co-Masonry into England and associated it with the Theosophical Society, which, however, had been founded quite independently of any other organization. All international Presidents since have, however, held high office as Co-Masons. [P22.] HPB expressly stated that 'we do not meddle in politics ...' yet Annie Besant's prime interest in India was political. [P23.] This is not in any way to say that she did not do an immense amount of good in establishing schools and colleges and altering social practices, but these activities are not specifically theosophical. [P24.] Politics aims to change systems for the benefit of people; Theosophy aims to change people themselves for the long-term benefit of humanity itself. [P25.] It is undeniable that in the early years of her membership of the Society,` Annie Besant was a powerful voice in the cause of Theosophy and its dissemination. This seems to have been foreseen by HPB. [P26.] However, from the time of her 'magnetization' by Chakravati, it appears that, possibly still under his influence, she to a large extent espoused Hinduism. This is evident in her later writings to such a point that a major reference to Theosophy in the Encyclopedia Britannica is under the heading of Hinduism. [P27.] Apart from Chakravati there is not much doubt that Annie Besant was later also much influenced by C.W. Leadbeater. He obviously prevailed upon her in the matter of the Liberal Catholic Church and in the Krishnamurti incident. C.W. LEADBEATER [P28.] CWL joined the Society in 1883. He did not, unlike Annie Besant receive a welcome from HPB, nor was he admitted to her Inner Group. [P29.] He was given some instruction by a regular chela at Adyar for a period and developed his clairvoyance but there is no reference that this relationship continued. [P30.] He did receive a reply to his early communication with the Masters but there is no corroborative evidence that he ever had any more contact with them after these introductory letters. [P31.] It also came to light that his veracity is much in question: his statements, for example, about his age, his family in South America, and his implying that he had been to Oxford as an undergraduate were discovered later to be false. [P32.] In the light of what the Master K.H. said about God, religion and the priestly caste in Mahatma Letter X, had Leadbeater been a chela he could never have allied himself with the Liberal Catholic Church and certainly he could never have allowed himself to be made a Bishop and thereafter always dress as such. The Masters had said "Our chief aim is to deliver humanity of this nightmare ... etc. " (A personal God of Theology) (M.L.X, 2nd and 3rd editions). [P33.] This is important in the light of CWL's later claims of an intimate and continued relationship with not only one but a number of Masters, even up to the highest in the Hierarchy from whom he claimed periodically to have received instruction in such matters as the upbringing of Krishnamurti. [P34.] In the light of some of these supposed contacts e.g. Comte St Germain, Jesus, etc. the association of the Liberal Catholic Church with the Society was justified. [P35.] However, both the Church and the CoMasons were representative of past dispensations. They both had their roots in ceremonial magic, the practice of which HPB did not endorse on account of the possible dangers involved. In a letter which Damodar wrote to Sinnett, Masonry and Rosicrucianism were specifically forbidden (M.L. Old Edition No. 142A, Chronological No. 14A). [P36.] During the founding of the Society it had been proposed that the Society might become Masonic. This was specifically decided against. Other behavior of the then leaders is also questionable. [P37.] In view of HPB's sundry comments about Masonry (into which she was admitted on account of her knowledge of it, but never formally 'initiated'), having lost its secrets, how came it that the Leaders of the Society not only espoused Co-Masonry but the Egyptian Rite which CWL together with a colleague in Australia had devised and which is still widely practiced by some members in the E.S.? End of Part 1 of 3 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:27:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Farthing Manifesto - Part 2 of 3 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980311232736.00846100@mail.eden.com> Part 2 of 3 KRISHNAMURTI [P38.] Krishnamurti was 'discovered' by CWL in 1909. After many difficulties, including law suits, he and his brother were brought up by the Society. [P39.] He was hailed as the future mouthpiece of the Lord Maitreya He was even seen as a second coming of the Lord. He was unusually gifted but it was CWL's 'insights' that initially established him in his role. The Lord Maitreya himself is supposed to have instructed CWL in his upbringing and training. He was brought up and groomed in the fashion of an English gentleman, a far cry from a Hindu 'Avatar'. [P40.] Those who had his upbringing and education in hand, notably CWL and Dick Balfour-Clark, were very much second generation theosophists. Krishnaji therefore probably never knew anything of the HPB/Masters teachings. [P41.] It is also very doubtful whether Krishnaji himself ever had a first-hand 'Master' experience although he did describe once having seen three Masters in a vision. Had he had a real experience, however, he could neither have forgotten it nor thereafter have doubted their existence and later have repudiated them. [P42.] Furthermore, as Krishnaji's teachings of freedom, self-reliance, non-dependence on authority and institutions and so on, are all virtually in proper accord with the 'Master' Theosophy, there would not have been any reason for him to repudiate it, nor his connection with the Society. [P43.] His loss was that he never became acquainted with the sea of theosophical knowledge which would to a large extent not only have justified his views but provided him with relevant data for use in his teaching, e.g. the difference between the personality and the individuality, the essential idea of Unity, and had he been interested, the proper nature of the Self, the total cosmic structure and processes. [P44.] His 'launching' was a reversion again, as in the case of the Liberal Catholic Church and the Co-Masons, to the traditional old dispensation of an authoritarian regime. [P45.] The second coming of the Christ was at that time (1920's) being regarded as imminent whereas, according to the Masters and theosophical teaching, such a 'second coming', i.e. the advent of an Avatar, was not expected for millennia. In any case the severance of the Society from the Masters made such a 'coming' into it extraordinarily unlikely. [P46.] The arrogance of those who professed to be able to elect Krishnaji's twelve disciples was an example of the distorted view of themselves that those leaders had. Surely an 'Avatar' would have been quite capable of electing his own disciples. [P47.] In any case in the nature of Karma his upbringing and earthly surroundings would have all been in proper accord without the interference of CWL. Many things are puzzling about Krishnaji's upbringing: one was that from reports kitchen staff at Adyar were changed because they were of the wrong caste. In a Society which specifically allows no such®MDNM¯ distinctions this is hard to understand. [P48.] The recognition of Krishnaji's spiritual development from a clairvoyant examination of his aura when he was so young undoubtedly demonstrated CWL's possession of that faculty but this does not corroborate his claim to have received messages from the 'King of the World'. [P49.] The 'finding' of Krishnaji, his upbringing and then adoption as a vehicle for the Lord-Maitreya was virtually the culmination of the 'split' from Master Theosophy. [P50.] Krishnaji's repudiation of this position was a serious blow to Annie Besant who obviously believed absolutely sincerely in her announcement of the New Coming. CWL's reaction to this repudiation seems to have been more limited and far less painful than Annie Besant's although he suffered a loss of stature that he would otherwise have had as the finder, sponsor and educator of this new divine vehicle. [P51.] After Krishnaji's withdrawal from the Society, Annie Besant also suffered a gradual diminution in stature and thereafter her health failed progressively. SECOND GENERATION THEOSOPHY [P52.] The fact that neither Annie Besant nor CWL, after maybe one or two initial incidents, was actually in touch with any Master although they may have genuinely believed they were has serious implications when considering what they said and did when they assumed positions of authority. [P53.] The whole tenor of the Society thereafter was one of make-believe! It became a pantomime, largely devised and orchestrated by CWL: a fairy story, but with a thread of truth running through it. [P54.] Except for passing references to HPB as 'our revered teacher', her literature as such was seldom referred to or studied. There was, however, a flood of literature purporting to be 'theosophical' from both Annie Besant and CWL, and later from others. [P55.] CWL's writings were largely colored by his own real or imaginary clairvoyant insights and his interpretations of them. [P56.] It is noteworthy here that, in the HPB/ Masters literature there is very little reference to, and no diagrams of, the Chakras so much featured by later writers. What little there is is in the papers to the Inner Group (incorporated by Annie Besant into her Vol III of the S.D. ) [P57.] Whereas the Annie Besant and CWL literature can be criticized from a purely theosophical point of view, much of what Annie Besant wrote was significant spiritual instruction. It was, however, of the conventional, classical religious type, derived largely from the Indian scriptures but with a Christian and a 'theosophical' flavor. [P58.] She had reviewed THE SECRET DOCTRINE at the time of its publication; this must have made a lasting impression on her but apart from acknowledging her debt to HPB, she seldom, if ever, specifically referred back to its teaching, or to that in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. [P59.] CWL seems never to have read either of these books. He puts himself in a very false position as an 'occult' author in the Introduction to his book THE ASTRAL PLANE where he says that his manuscript was considered so excellent as an exposition that the Masters wanted it for their archives. [P60.] It is difficult to see why this should be; much of the information given us in the book is at variance with their teaching and furthermore it is not clear, for example, which 'astral' plane he is describing, the HPB or the A.B./ CWL one, the former being the 2nd plane of Nature and the latter being the 4th. [P61.] There is also no mention of the 'etheric double' in the HPB/Masters classification of the human principles. It is to this double that CWL ascribes many of the qualities that HPB attributes to her astral body. [P62.] The changes of numbering of the principles where Kama (emotion, desire) was put 2nd instead of 4th is important. An aid to the understanding of THE SECRET DOCTRINE is analogy and correspondences. [P63.] In the Masters' literature Kama as the 4th principle is emphasized in the evolutionary stages of development in the 4th Round, the 4th Race, the 4th Substance, not the 2nd. [P64.] One example of the extent to which the members of the Theosophical Society, from senior members to the newest, were 'infected' by CWL is exemplified by Jinarajadasa's acceptance of the fact that CWL's Astral Plane manuscript had in fact been transmitted magically to the Masters. [P65.] Obviously also Jinarajadasa's statement that he, in common with others, had had several initiations about which he knew nothing except what CWL told him, again raises the question of CWL's veracity. [P66.] As the years progressed the divergence between the HPB/Masters teachings and the second generation Theosophy widened; even basic information was changed, e.g. the introduction of the 'etheric double' (with four 'etheric' states of physical matter), the alterations to the classification of principles and planes, and the CWL account of the after-death states which is quite different from that of the Masters, etc. [P67.] The divergence of the two systems became clearly apparent with the publication of the Mahatma Letters in 1924/5. It was unfortunate that, for a number of reasons, their publication had been delayed till then. [P68.] Apart from 'occult' material in them, these letters set a background of specific purpose to the founding of the Society. This was closely related to the Masters being regarded as one tier of membership in the Society, with their accepted Chelas as a second and the ordinary members a third. [P69.] To begin with this was the case but it obviously ceased to be so on HPB's death (if not before). An attempt to reintroduce it by edict later was obviously spurious. [P70.] The Letters also describe in some detail the conditions that were essential for a relationship between the Masters and their Chelas. These conditions were very stringent, particularly regarding honesty and straightforwardness. [P71.] In the period after HPB's death and with the withdrawal of the Masters once again into obscurity, instead of direct guidance from or association with the Master, even if it were visiting him in the Astral, the practice grew up of this being done indirectly. [P72.] For example, people were taken to the Masters in their astral bodies for initiations etc., but about which next day they knew nothing apart from what they were told. In one or two places the Masters do say that this can happen in the matter of training but not by proxy. Further, initiations are matters of enhancement of waking consciousness and this can occur only when certain conditions created necessarily by the pupil, not someone on his behalf, have been met. THE PRESENT [P73.] Regardless of the state of the Society, thanks to the Masters' insistence and help, and the sacrifices of HPB, the world and particularly the Society have a voluminous and authentic Initiate-Master-inspired literature. [P74.] The Society itself is now a world-wide organization of an idealistic and benevolent nature, inspired by the idea of universal brotherhood, but the second and third objects are interpreted very loosely and widely to include anything from UFO's to what is generally extraordinary and sensational. [P75.] All this, however, against a background of what might be termed 'religion' or spirituality, mostly by way of, for example, the Eastern exoteric scriptures and various ideas on Theosophy, methods of yoga and meditation. There is also in some places a strong adherence to the Liberal Catholic Church and Co-Masonry as if they were indeed part of the theosophical movement. [P76.] In some places, notably Africa, the Theosophical Society is identified with the Theosophical Order of Service. Charity is impressed on every member through the brotherhood idea; there are however hundreds of charitable organizations to work for and there can be nothing special about the 'theosophical' one to warrant its association with the Society. [P77.] Similarly the Round Table is an admirable organization but again nothing in it is specifically theosophical. [P78.] Theosophical Science groups while keeping interested members informed of current scientific matters have seldom if ever related science to anything specifically associated therewith in the classical theosophical literature. Because some scientific members have found faults and inconsistencies in 'scientific' statements in the literature they have abandoned the whole grand theosophical system, demonstrating at least a lack of a sense of proportion. [P79.] Where older Lodges have survived, and in Section central libraries, books on Theosophy on display or listed in catalogues, are mostly those of the second generation writers. Their contents on the whole are taken to be Theosophy without question. [P80.] A few individuals try to correct this situation but their influence generally is very small. Only a scattered and desultory interest is paid to the classical 'theosophical literature of the HPB/ Masters era. The idea is widespread that the jealously guarded freedom of thought of members can mean that anyone's views or opinions about 'theosophy' can be put out as such. End of Part 2 of 3 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:10:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: Neo-Human Analysis (1457) Message-ID: <19980311031001.12423.rocketmail@send1d.yahoomail.com> ---Bart Lidofsky wrote: > You then go on for several paragraphs explaining how great Neo-Humanism > is, yet you fail to explain what it means, except in platitudes and paradoxes. > As nearly as I can tell, what you are attempting to do is convert an emotional > state into words, and failing to do so. Neo-Humanism may be an important > philosophical movement, and I believe that you are looking to get people to > believe in that philosophy. Hmmm...so I'm not the only one who got that impression. I have to admit, though, that the post did have somewhat of a Shakespearean flavor, with all the new combo-words. I think it would make a very good poem. You know, the kind that means different things to different people. Kind of like horoscopes and the revelation. >The only followers you will get if you do not > explain what the philosophy is, however, are those who are afraid to point out > when the emperor has no clothes. >So please put some clothing on your emperor, > rather than try to state how good he's going to look once he's clothed? Dieter: Once again, I don't mean to be rude, but it sounded to me like you were waiting for the next comet to come around, if you know what I mean. Our human lives depend on destroying other creatures to nourish ourselves. It is one of the evils we have to cope with. I think I understand your turmoil, but dwelling too much on necessary evils isn't going to help any of us, especially you, in the end. Think about this...if the human race died out anytime soon, with all of the chemical, biological, nuclear, etc. etc. factories and treatment plants, the ecosystem would be destroyed within 5 or 6 years (my own uneducated guess). No animals. No plants. No humans. But hey, the rocks might be happy with the situation, even though acid rain would be beating down on them all the time. We must destroy and kill in order to create and preserve. It is a vicious cycle that has been known of for millenia. Its not going to change; at least not by an act of humanity. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:21:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: Latent Principles (1455) Message-ID: <19980311032145.12173.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> ---Jerry Schueler wrote: > > I agree Paul. I would never say that animals have no manas, but > rather that manas is a bit more manifested or active in human > beings. Every monad, and thus every living being and mineral, > has all seven principles albeit some are relatively latent. > > Jerry S. Just a quick ? Would you say that humans are perhaps latent in principles which are more abundant in the "lower" kingdoms(monads)? Or do we just keep getting more and more saturated with all of the principles as we evolve? Carrot-cake. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 04:32:10 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1455 Message-ID: , Jerry Schueler writes >I agree Paul. I would never say that animals have no manas, but >rather that manas is a bit more manifested or active in human >beings. Every monad, and thus every living being and mineral, >has all seven principles albeit some are relatively latent. > >Jerry S. Hmmm. While agreeing with the idea that all life in all its forms has all seven principles, I would argue that "some are relatively latent" is a subjective approach which can apply to humans as well as other life forms. The "relative latency" is, surely, in the eye of the beholder? It is not impossible to argue that the higher manas of, say, a cat, is so far in advance of our own that the apparent look of contempt that a cat will occasionally bestow upon a human might be based upon a superior, not an inferior development of one of the seven principles, even though others might be less developed than in the human. Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:24:54 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Farthing's Manifesto on TS(Adyar) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980310232454.0092fcd0@mail.eden.com> HI Geoffrey Farthing, a prominent member of in England T S for years and was/is the President of the Blavatsky Foundation in London, in 1996 or so, wrote a MANIFESTO on the subject of TS (Adyar)'s abandonment of H.P.B. and original Theosophy, and its subsequent deterioration. He also issued 6 months later an Addendum to the original manifesto. I want to get hold of a copy of the above, so that it can be posted on the here and at other maillists for all of us to see. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 06:31:16 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: How much is how much?? Message-ID: <35054EB3.205CCFE5@usa.net> Hi gang The other day, what Brenda posted to me, maked me think. i have seen some stuff of the Metaphisical guys here, but i don't know, maybe because my science background, or maybe because i'm just an sceptical, i was thinking that the other day, comparing it to the Theosophical doctrines....it is quite compatible, but, it is justifiable??? The thing?? The taught.The power of taught. It is, really, a powerful tool, a tremendous motor of energy, fountain of power, and wisdom. but also is the tree of the good and evil. And i was wondering.... I was thinking this, and i got to talk to a friend of mine. this friend was questioning about the wizard path "the disciple path" my friend was thinking, but, if we will be able to transform our reality (We were reading this new agey guy book -DaEl,he works with crystals,the power of quartz crystals, you can modify your world,and blahblahblah) Then, if we modify our reality, TWO THINGS: We are generating karma of that?? Bad karma, if we submit to our will,desire?? And two:IF SOMEONE PRESUMLY is following this elevated path to be a wizard, a MASTER OF POWER AND GOODNESS, the first thing for that, as Blavatsky stated, is to DELETE ALL EVIL, ALL DESIRE, (ALL personality,looks like) Then the aspirant pupil to be a wizard,will have to renounce to all of the world, and concentrate to the INNER SILENCE.Then,If this aspirant has learned this tool of transformation (Taught ,transmutation) that metaphisics say,the power of the mind, word, and work, like the theosophists say, I, myself, repeating what my friend asked,my own doubt too, It is valid to ASK?? To create our own reality, in accord to our human and sometimes low desires, desires from our astral body?? I raise my voice, and ask to you too, It is VALID??? HOW MUCH IS HOW MUCH???? I ASK YOU.....If a boy wants to be a WIZARD, to the SERVICE OF THE WORLD, that is clear, and HE KNOWS IT, can then, when he discovers that POWERFUL CETRUS that is the WORD,THE TAUGHT, Can then ask for himself, The woman that he loves?? The job that he wants?? The siddhis that he needs-wants (Nothing harmful, he believes) The phisical body that he wants?? I ASK YOU PEPOLE, VERSED PEPOLE,WISER THAN ME IN MANY WAYS, CAN YOU ANSWER??? *puf* I hope i do not bother nobody for the tone of my words.... I am only wondering, if the written laws of Theosophy,that metaphisics applies in daily things, Someone in the path, has the duty (Because all of this is that: DUTY,DHARMA) of staying straight, and destroy all desire and forget of the construction tool for him/herself, or that if it is posible, that the wizard of the stories can marry the beautiful princess of his dreams, and be happy of heart and have peace of mind, because he was allowed to get her. Wondering only..... Estrella P.S. as Doss could say, my 1 peso viejo (0.001 peso nuevo) worth. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:53:40 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: Re: NEWS: Religious censoring of the Internet (And other types) Message-ID: <35056203.15B46465@usa.net> > Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > > In message <35046454.8A5FA7ED@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > > writes > > >On the other hand, > > >when they come for me, I hope that there is someone left to speak for me. (On > > >a > > >third hand, there are a lot of so-called Theosophists out there who, if you > > >defend > > >paganism, accuse you of practicing black magick). > > > > And not only paganism ... and although we don't always see eye to eye > > Bart, I for one will be there to speak for you. > > Thank you. I was, of course, referring to the quotation (whose source I > forget) about the Nazi's, which went something like, "First they came for the > Communists, but, because I was not a Communist, I said nothing. Then, they came > for the homosexuals, but, because I was not a homosexual, I said nothing. Then, > they came for the Jews, but, because I was not a Jew, I said nothing. Then, they > came for me, but there was nobody left to speak for me." > > Bart Lidofsky Wonderful phrase.I think i remember that from somewhere,some place i think i have read that. By the way, folks, talking about intolerance, did you know the latelest on Mexican low intensity war in Chiapas?? A goverment-sell reporter (Lolita de la Vega) pop in a helicopter in the Zapatista zone in the town of La realidad, and maked a REAL PHONY tv video, saying (AGAIN!!) That "All the zapatista there are "extranjeros" (Foreighners,from other countries, aliens) The real thing is that the zapatista rebel villagers keep there some Not Goverment organizations pepole (Most of them caucasian look-like,-blond, tall, colored eyes- Some of them are tourists sympatizers of the movement, The vast majority are Human rights organizations members) They act as they life insurance. Goverment knows that cannot devast a village full of foreighners.If it does, All of the developed countries will protest!! Well, the case is that, after Lolita de la Vega put that horrendous video (By the way, in their way out they demolished the school village with the helicopter) The mexican goverment started EXPELLING ALL OF THE FOREIGNERS OF CHIAPAS (Including some priests that had more than 20 years in the country) and also many caucasian type Mexicans (They exist, even that you do not believe me) or with foreign last names, begin to feel menaced because of that. Wanna go in a trip to Chiapas,Doc Alan?? Or you Bart?? Or you Chuck??? Doss?? Somebody?? (By the way, where IS Chuck??) Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:20:41 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: Re: Animals Message-ID: <35055A49.4807283A@usa.net> > There is an interesting chart in "Man Visible and Invisible" pg 47-51 > > http://www.withoutwalls.com/artwork/Charts/Kingdoms.JPG > > that speaks to your examples: I saw the graphic that you posted,Mark. I believe that in an AB book (The chackras-is a small book, i believe is a fragment of "threatise on cosmic fire") the graphic is quite different.The mineral graphic i think was a bit bigger (included more part of kama) And the human graphic was the same as the superhuman graphic. also included another graphic, named "superior adepts" that was like this: X X X X X X XX (Supposed to be-with quite imagination-a triangle in the atma-buddhi-manas secction) Also appeared a dotted circle, from kama to atma, called "Invisible entities" Also have seen the "masters" graphics on another link of yours. The beautiful sufi poet was wallpaper of a machine here before they took it away, WAAH!!! (I'll save image next time) Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:00:51 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: How much is how much?? Message-ID: <35069912.4B2624C4@sprynet.com> Estrella wrote: > desires, desires from our astral body?? I raise my voice, and ask to you > too, It is VALID??? HOW MUCH IS HOW MUCH???? I ASK YOU.....If a boy > wants to be a WIZARD, to the SERVICE OF THE WORLD, that is clear, and HE > KNOWS IT, can then, when he discovers that POWERFUL CETRUS that is the > WORD,THE TAUGHT, Can then ask for himself, The woman that he loves?? The > job that he wants?? The siddhis that he needs-wants (Nothing harmful, he > believes) The phisical body that he wants?? I ASK YOU PEPOLE, VERSED > PEPOLE,WISER THAN ME IN MANY WAYS, CAN YOU ANSWER??? Am I wiser than you in the right ways, or are those the ways in which you are wiser than I? In any case, you have hit on what is the true difference between the two major sources of New Age thought: H. P. Blavatsky and A. Crowley (we will, for the sake of this discussion, ignore the small but unfortunately visible cult of perceived personality that has grown around Crowley, and concentrate on his Thelemic philosophy, as with Blavatsky we will concentrate on Theosophy). Note, by the way, that Crowley's path translates as "Divine Will", while Blavatsky's translates as "Divine Wisdom". And therein lies the difference. In Theosophy, we develop the intellect (study, gaining knowledge from without, and meditation, gaining knowledge from within), and then apply it to the everyday world (service), as a tool for spiritual growth, and to indirectly encourage spiritual growth in others. Any talents/siddhi's gained along the way are merely side effects. Crowley, on the other hand, believed that through exercise of the true Will (Atma/Budhi to Theosophists), then one will develop spiritual (by living in what Theosophists call the reincarnating principle). Siddhi's are directly developed, but only as a means for exercising Will. Crowley's path is certainly more dangerous, and not for everybody, because of the temptation of the lower principles to guide the use of the higher principles, rather than vice versa. It is therefore not for everybody, and is admittedly elitist. Theosophy is a safer path, and one in which virtually everybody can achieve some degree of spiritual growth. Note that in either path, if a person is trying to develop siddhi's in order to use them, regardless of what s/he considers his/her motives to be, they are straying off the path. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:15:01 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Purucker's writings in French Message-ID: I've been asked to pass this on. ---- A subscriber to THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, http://theosophy.com/hct.htmlc Molyn of Bilthoven Holland, has written to the editor, asking whether we have or know of, any of the works of G. de Purucker, translated into French. Having a negative reply in both cases, we now broadcast his query via the internet. Anyone with information should kindly contact Dick Slusser, editor, at dslusser@indra.net or (303)-494-5482. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:38:40 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Geoffrey Farthing Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980311173840.00c1a408@mail.eden.com> Does anyone know if Farthing has e-mail? ..MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:35:12 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Seeds Grow! Message-ID: Theosophy International has just signed up its 100th member! Welcome again Elina! Everyone who has signed up during the past two years has made a personal commitment to the Statement of Intent found on the website (below). Not all are on the theos lists at the present time, and some are not even computer owners, but as "TI" started on the net, most are! It may be that some people have moved on, moved away, or even left this plane for another. But - each and every one as made their commitment, and because such an ideal remains in their hearts (and to the TI members who read this, YOUR hearts [bless 'em] then the ideals that inspired the theosophical movement can only go forward. To sign up for "TI" means that a person holds the theosophical quest for Truth dearly, and although we did once have a *single* resignation (later reinstated) even then the members concerned had not given up this ideal - far from it. May we continue to grow and, equally important, each make our own unique contribution to the quest, the journey, and the life that the Unity of Being inspires. Just my 100c! Alan :-) THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:23:16 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: WELCOME! Message-ID: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL WELCOMES Elina Juusola! Personal e-mail welcomes to: elina@technet2000.com.au THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:08:59 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: How much is how much?? Message-ID: <$dH+OVAbeyB1EwC$@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Bart Lidofsky writes > Note that in either path, if a person is trying to develop siddhi's in >order to use them, regardless of what s/he considers his/her motives to be, >they are straying off the path. .. or indeed in *any* path that claims a spiritual or theosophical Truth as its objective. Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:15:15 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Purucker's writings in French Message-ID: I've been asked to pass this on. ---- A subscriber to THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, http://theosophy.com/hct.htmlc Molyn of Bilthoven Holland, has written to the editor, asking whether we have or know of, any of the works of G. de Purucker, translated into French. Having a negative reply in both cases, we now broadcast his query via the internet. Anyone with information should kindly contact Dick Slusser, editor, at dslusser@indra.net or (303)-494-5482. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:03:26 +1100 (EDT) From: Dieter Dambiec Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1457 Message-ID: Hi, I also consider animals should not suffer needlessly by human activities and killing for food. In this regard current humanism, is lacking. It needs to be redefined and expanaded. And therefore I opt for neo-humansim. That is, Neo-Humanism is newly explained Humanism. Expanded humanism of this type is critical to social and human advancement and evolution of our consciousness. In general, only human beings have come within the scope of humanism. But this explanation is not sufficient. Why should the love and affection of developed human minds be restricted to human beings only? Why should it not include all living beings, including plant life? This is the new explanation of humanism - Neo-Humanism - for within Neo-Humanism the entire animate world is included. The inanimate is also given respect. The collection of all natural human expressions, the collection of all natural expressions of all flora and fauna is Neo-Humanism. All human expressions, all human manifestations--and not only human expressions, or human manifestations, but all expressions, all manifestations of all living beings, including flora and fauna. This Neo-Humanistic approach is the human asset, it is the charm of human existence, it is the fascination of human existence, and it is the glamour of human society. Neo-Humanism includes within its scope not only human beings and animate creatures, such as plants and animals, but also all inanimate entities as well, for the scope of Neo-Humanism extends down to the smallest particles of sub-atomic matter. Everything is to be treated properly with the spiritual approach. A day is sure to come when human intuition will realize that the essence in the sub-atomic world is pure Consciousness. We can give joy to the Supreme Consciousness by serving creations -- human beings, animals and plants -- and this service will be the best application of Neo-Humanism. Neo-humanism is the psycho-intellectual approach and spiritual practice is the spirituo-intuitional approach. Also there is the socioeconomic approach of PROUT (PROgressive Utilisation Theory). The mid-point is the path of spirituality - the path of spiritual practice. >From the point of view of Neo-humanism the arena of our service should be ever-increasing, ever-expanding, and should include both the animate and inanimate worlds. Human beings have not taken proper care of the inanimate world. For example, human beings have damaged and destroyed many hills and mountains and this affects the rainfall. To protect the inanimate world it is necessary to conserve and properly utilise all natural resources. The Neo-humanist policy to ensure the well-being of all creation - is to first serve human beings, then animals, then plants and then inanimate objects. Human beings should not kill the creatures of the animal kingdom just for their own survival. We must not waste our time - there must be maximum utilization of all human potentialities. The requirement and necessities of all human beings are the same, and so humanity is a singular entity, humanity is one and indivisible - with different expressions, like a bouquet of flowers. So we must always maintain an equilibrium among all the different human beings for the development of all, regardless of race, caste, creed or nationality. When the underlying spirit of humanism is extended to everything, animate and inanimate, in this universe - this is Neo-Humanism. So the actual task of human beings is to maintain a subjective approach: that is, they will advance psycho-spiritually towards the Supreme Consciousness, inspired by Neo-Humanistic ideals; while at the same time they must strive for the expansion of humanistic principles and thus establish a social structure based on universalism. Otherwise, their inner psycho-spiritual rhythms will not be able to properly adjust with narrow sentiments such as geo-sentiment and socio-sentitment, and this will have a disastrous effect on society. Humans will continue to suffer from the mental disease of dualism: that is, where there is no correspondence between their inner minds and their outer expressions. This psychology of duality within a single personality creates a very serious psychic disease which may destory them. Neo-Humanism will liberate people from this disease of dualism, so they will be able to do good to themselves and to others also according to their abilities; for everyone is endowed with some degree of ability. In the Cosmic Family, humans, animals, plants, and inanimate objects exist together and maintain a harmonious balance. In this physical world, each and every object has its own dharma, ie its own characteristic. Everything is moving in its own particular rhythm, but that individual rhythm is an inseparable part of the Cosmic Rhythm. In this case it is not at all relevant how much existential value or utility value an entity has for human beings. In the case of Neo-Humanism, we have to consider how far the individual rhythms of human beings and other living creatures and plants are maintaining adjustment with that Cosmic Rhythm, and herein lies the greatest application of human intellect. But because of the deficiency of human intellect, people never consider things in their proper perspective; they do not think for the collective well-being of their fellow humans, far less for the welfare of the flora and fauna. Neo-Humanism is humanism of the past, humanism of the present and humanism--newly explained--of the future. Explaining humanity and humanism in a new light will widen the path of human progress, will make it easier to tread. Neo-Humanism will give new inspiration and provide a new interpretation for the very concept of human existence. It will help people understand that human beings, as the most thoughtful and intelligent beings in this created universe will have to accept the great responsibility of taking care of the entire universe--will have to accept that the responsibility of the entire universe rests with them. Neo-Humanism is the philosophy which will make people understand that they are not merely ordinary creatures. This philosophy will liberate them from all inferiority feelings and defects and make them aware of their own importance; it will inspire them to build a new world. That Neo-Humanistic status, will save not only the human world but the plant and animal worlds also. In that supreme Neo-Humanistic status, the universal humanity will attain the consummation of its existence. Then nothing will be impossible for human beings; they will be able to do anything and everything. Today's humanity is in despair; people think too much about their imperfections. They think, "Can I do it?" But in that supreme, Neo-Humanistic status, they will say, "Yes, I am a Neo-Humanistic being and I am destined to do great work--for that I have come on this earth. So there is no scope for doubt whether I can do it or not." When this Neo-Humanism operates in the external sphere, then internal devotion - love - as a principle is transformed into devotion as a mission. Finally, the source of inspiration for this Neo-Humanism is spirituality as a culture. And when this surging Neo-Humanism overflows in all directions, making all things sweet and blissful, unifying individual life with collective life, and transforming this earth into a blissful heaven - that very state of supreme fulfillment is the state of spirituality as a mission. That is the highest state of attainment in human life, the source of all inspiration. Universal Humanism is Neo-humanism - the state in which the underlying spirit of humanism is extended to everything, animate or inanimate, in this universe. It will elevate humanism to universalism, the cult of love for all created beings of this universe. Where selfishness increases, attraction amongst human beings decreases. We must increase the jurisdiction of this attraction, this love. This love should include all plants, birds, animals, etc, because everything has life, everything has feeling. We should think that others feel as I feel, and this feeling should include plants, animals and inanimate objects. This is Neo-Humanism and Neo-Humanism is essential for the all-round development of the human mind. And so for the continued welfare of all. With the sentiment of Neo-Humanism: "The universe is mine; all living beings are mine. I am to serve them, I am to help them. If I don't serve them, if I don't help them, who else will help them? I am here to serve them.", in this way your existence will be blissful in each and every field of your movement--your existence will be joyful. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 05:55:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Re: Animals/Neo-humanism Message-ID: <19980310135528.14156.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com> Ah...it feels good to be back in discussion. :) With regard to the "Animals" thread, Mark's explanation seems to make sense when looked at in terms of "orthodox Theosophy." It even appears to make sense in day to day observations of reality. However, I still am not quite clear on how we have "reincarnated" from raw material. The reason for this, I believe, is that I don't quite have the whole globe/round/race thing down yet. Perhaps someone could enlighten me? And despite the fact that the Neo-Humanism post sounded like a sales pitch, (and I don't mean to be rude or condescending, but that is how it came across), it made me think about a few things. I thought, "Oh, wouldn't it be just wonderful if we could deny our basic instincts, needs, and desires and just love absolutely everything." Then something hit me. Reality. Whether I want to believe it or not, my life is controlled by many outside forces, one of the major ones being financial stability. In today's world, if you don't have enough money, (enough being the amount necessary to purchase shelter and nourishment for yourself, and if you have a family, them too) you will not live for very long. Also, I utilize many different materials daily in my quest to live. If I loved everything I used or destroyed, I would probably kill myself out of depression and spend most of my waking life in mourning (no pun intended). If it is true that I have evolved from the sub-atomic world and that I embrace and am enmeshed in the same cosmic energy/entity that it is, then I believe that, spiritually and physically, I'm pretty much doing what I am supposed to do. As a sub-atomic particle I fed off of some unknown (to me, anyhow) energy to keep myself in motion and therefore retain my existence. As a stone, I pretty much acted, unconsciously perhaps, as part of an atmospheric or ecological enforcer of sorts. As a plant, I fed from the sun and the water and, in return, gave off gases and other chemicals that helped to balance my environment. I also, most likely, was ready to give my life to another being as nourishment. If I was conscious and sentient, I probably knew what my purpose was, and served it willingly. As an animal, I most likely had no regard for the plants I walked on and ate. I probably had less regard than I do now for my own family/kingdom/species. I ate, I crapped, I slept, and I socialized. Depending on what I was, I probably kept one group of animals or plants from overpopulating themselves. I probably ended my life providing food for something else. Perhaps even a human. As a human, yes, I do care for the things I see around me. Not all the time, as I should, but for the most part, I have compassion. As far as inanimate objects are concerned, I don't really think about them too much. A stone is a stone is a stone. Perhaps if I ever get the chance to talk to or listen to one of them, my views will change. But by then, I have the feeling I'll be a little nutty. I agree that we should love everything around us, but as far as resources go, we can't let that love inhibit our progression as a species. That sounds awful, but its true. If we had deep feelings for everything we ate, chopped down, or mortared...we'd most likely die off a depressed and angry species. I guess I'll end there. I think I had more to say, but I have hereby lost my train of thought. Cheers, The Carrot (yeah yeah...bow down to the carrot. Love me for I am the replenesher of the Hairless Purple Bunny. Eat me and know that I have given my life to you just so you could see your thankless face every morning. Watch me grow...watch me multiply...someday...I say...SOMEDAY...we will rule the world with the HPB's at our side. And you will watch with horror as our numbers go forth across your land. Your pitiful stone structures will be confiscated by the Great Bopp and our magnificent greenhouses will stand in their place. And finally, we will take your children and make them all BOTANISTS.) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:00:49 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1457 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980310080049.0083e2f0@mail.eden.com> At 05:13 AM 3/10/1998 -0500, you wrote: > >Also there is the socioeconomic >approach of PROUT (PROgressive Utilisation Theory). > Is the author of PROUT, Sarkar who also started the Ananda Marga? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:30:50 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1455 Message-ID: <01bd4c31$1f8d3be0$1d7d96d1@gschueler.netgsi.com> > All this suggests to me that >"manas is the defining human attribute" is hubris, whatever HPB >and her Masters said. > > I agree Paul. I would never say that animals have no manas, but rather that manas is a bit more manifested or active in human beings. Every monad, and thus every living being and mineral, has all seven principles albeit some are relatively latent. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:18:20 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1457 Message-ID: <350567CC.6AF37CF7@sprynet.com> Dieter Dambiec wrote: > I also consider animals should not suffer needlessly by human activities > and killing for food. Most people would agree with that. Most people would not, however, agree on the definition of the word, "needlessly". > The collection of all natural human expressions, the collection of all > natural expressions of all flora and fauna is Neo-Humanism. All human > expressions, all human manifestations--and not only human expressions, or > human manifestations, but all expressions, all manifestations of all > living beings, including flora and fauna. The second sentence is not a sentence, and does not explain the meaning of the term "expressions" as applied in the first sentence. I am seriously trying to figure out what you are trying to say, but have a nagging feeling that you are attempting to put emotions into words, and not succeeding very well. > This Neo-Humanistic approach is the human asset, it is the charm of human > existence, it is the fascination of human existence, and it is the glamour > of human society. Once again, I have no idea what that sentence means. > spiritual approach. A day is sure to come when human intuition will > realize that the essence in the sub-atomic world is pure Consciousness. Interestingly, H. P. Blavatsky stated (and most theosophical authors agree) that you cannot have Consciousness without matter. What is your reason for differing on this point? > We can give joy to the Supreme Consciousness by serving creations -- human > beings, animals and plants -- and this service will be the best > application of Neo-Humanism. What kind of service? > Neo-humanism is the psycho-intellectual approach and spiritual practice is > the spirituo-intuitional approach. Also there is the socioeconomic > approach of PROUT (PROgressive Utilisation Theory). The mid-point is the > path of spirituality - the path of spiritual practice. There are several words there for which I cannot find a defintion. Can you please define "psycho-intellectual", "spirituo-intuitional", and the phrase, "Progressive Utilisation Theory"? > inanimate world. For example, human beings have damaged and destroyed many > hills and mountains and this affects the rainfall. This is news to me. I would greatly appreciate some examples. > objects. Human beings should not kill the creatures of the animal kingdom > just for their own survival. Unless Human beings are not creatures of the animal kingdom, the statement is a clear paradox. If they are not, then are you saying that human beings should die so that animals might live? If so, then who chooses which human beings die and which ones live? > So we > must always maintain an equilibrium among all the different human beings > for the development of all, regardless of race, caste, creed or > nationality. What do you mean by an "equilibrium"? > So the actual task of human beings is to maintain a subjective approach: > that is, they will advance psycho-spiritually towards the Supreme > Consciousness, inspired by Neo-Humanistic ideals; while at the same time > they must strive for the expansion of humanistic principles and thus > establish a social structure based on universalism. Otherwise, their inner > psycho-spiritual rhythms will not be able to properly adjust with narrow > sentiments such as geo-sentiment and socio-sentitment, and this will have > a disastrous effect on society. One of the major purposes of language is communication. I think that the above paragraph means, "Don't think, only feel, or else there will be trouble.", but I'm not sure. > Humans will continue to suffer from the mental disease of dualism: that > is, where there is no correspondence between their inner minds and their > outer expressions. This psychology of duality within a single personality > creates a very serious psychic disease which may destory them. > Neo-Humanism will liberate people from this disease of dualism, so they > will be able to do good to themselves and to others also according to > their abilities; for everyone is endowed with some degree of ability. Except that your description of Neo-Humanism is, itself, dualistic, in that it assumes two worlds, the world of human beings, and the world of everything else. > In the Cosmic Family, humans, animals, plants, and inanimate objects exist > together and maintain a harmonious balance. Except, apparently, that human beings should be sacrificed so that the others can exist. You then go on for several paragraphs explaining how great Neo-Humanism is, yet you fail to explain what it means, except in platitudes and paradoxes. As nearly as I can tell, what you are attempting to do is convert an emotional state into words, and failing to do so. Neo-Humanism may be an important philosophical movement, and I believe that you are looking to get people to believe in that philosophy. The only followers you will get if you do not explain what the philosophy is, however, are those who are afraid to point out when the emperor has no clothes. So please put some clothing on your emperor, rather than try to state how good he's going to look once he's clothed? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:23:05 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Animals/Neo-humanism Message-ID: <350568E8.4C3A9B64@sprynet.com> Jaqtarin Triele wrote: > material. The reason for this, I believe, is that I don't quite have > the whole globe/round/race thing down yet. Perhaps someone could > enlighten me? Ah, you seek enlightenment! Actually, the globe/round/race thing is quite possibly the most complex and difficult to understand aspect of Theosophy. So much so, that there is a lot of disagreement. It is kind of akin to describing an electric light to a culture that has no experience with electricity, including lightning. Any description that you can give them that they can understand will be found to be incorrect if and when they somehow do invent the electric light. Feeling enlightened yet? I sure don't..... Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 00:28:30 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Animals Message-ID: <3503A82D.2785@withoutwalls.com> > > Previously, I wrote: > > > > We are more animal than we think. Not that that's a bad thing, just a > > fact. A lot of what we take for granted as being "Human" isn't at all: > > it's animal or vegetal or below. Manas is the defining human attribute. > > > Then K.Paul Johnson wrote: > > Which sounds a lot like theosophical orthodoxy, but doesn't ring > true to me. To define Manas in a way that would exclude the > cognitive processes of animals is difficult to imagine. Parrots, > for example, have been shown to understand and be able to name > colors, numbers, greater/lesser, various substances (wood, metal, > etc.). Higher apes can use language to express feelings and > desires but also to describe objective reality. Dolphins, whose > presence I'd never been in until recently, radiate something that > simply *knows*-- looking into their eyes is quite different from > any other animal encounter I've had. And elephants have > recently been shown to be have religious behavior, in the form of > elaborate funeral ceremonies. All this suggests to me that > "Manas is the defining human attribute" is hubris, whatever HPB > and her Masters said. Ok. Before we go too far may I clarify what I meant? When I first commented I was really agreeing with you. I believe animals do exhibit compassion, caring and lots of other traits (patterns of sexuality) that we sometimes take for granted as being "human" when in fact they're not. You only have to hang around animals a while to understand that. I marvel that so much of our so-called "human personality" is comprised of heritage that we've received from earlier kingdoms. I only mentioned it because I've run across people who hate the animal in them so much and evince little understanding or appreciation of the facts of life in their effort to quickly become "spiritual" that they set up dangerous and unnecessary conflicts within themselves. To me that's "hubris." I also agree with you (and so, I think, does Theosophy) that all of these traits are, in fact, characteristics of Life itself unfolding through experience in the kingdoms. I don't think that the catagorical lines that are drawn for students to understand these divisions are as concrete as they seem. Your statement "To define Manas in a way that would exclude the cognitive processes of animals is difficult to imagine," is true and I am perhaps at fault for misleading. I didn't mean to say that I think the animal kingdom does not partake of or ensoul some portion of Manas. It clearly does and Theosophical teaching admits it: There is an interesting chart in "Man Visible and Invisible" pg 47-51 http://www.withoutwalls.com/artwork/Charts/Kingdoms.JPG that speaks to your examples: "In the animal kingdom the band shows that there is full development in the lowest astral sub-plane, showing that the animal is capable of experiencing to the fullest possible extent the lower desires; but the narrowing of the band through the higher sub-planes shows that his capacity for the higher desires is much more limited. Nevertheless it does exist, so that it happens, in exceptional cases, that he may manifest an exceeding high quality of affection and devotion. The band representing the animal shows also that there is already a development of intelligence, which needs matter for its expression. It is now generally admitted that some animals, both domestic and wild, will undoubtedly exercise the power of reasoning from cause to effect, although the lines along which their reason can work are naturally few and limited, nor is the faculty powerful as yet. As the band is intended to represent the average animal, the point pierces only into the lowest sub-plane of the mental plane; with the highly developed domestic animal the point might readily extend even to the highest of the four lower levels, though of course it would remain a point, and by no means the full width of the band." Lastly, when I said "Manas is the defining human attribute," what I meant is that it is the Human kingdom's destiny to fully develop Manas, as it is the Animals to fully develop Kamas. That's Textbook theosophy, but it doesn't mean that the lines of demarcation are hard and fast between kingdoms. Animals share in developing lower Manas up to the point of individualization when they technically enter the Human kingdom. Mark WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 02:52:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jaqtarin Triele Subject: Where did everybody go? Message-ID: <19980309105220.14199.rocketmail@send1d.yahoomail.com> Hey Doss, In the last four days, I've received one digest with one post...yours. Has everyone given up on the list or something? (I just recently resubscribed, been busy lately) Did they just move to another list? Like ti-l? Yours, Jaqi. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 10:51:18 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Where did everybody go? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980309165118.0072ef8c@mail.eden.com> Hi There was a lot of traffic for the last couple of weeks. Many are also on the theos-talk. Even there, there were only 3 msgs yesterday. I guess it is slow week. MKR At 05:58 AM 3/9/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hey Doss, > >In the last four days, I've received one digest with one post...yours. > Has everyone given up on the list or something? (I just recently >resubscribed, been busy lately) Did they just move to another list? >Like ti-l? > >Yours, >Jaqi. >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 11:56:53 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Animals Message-ID: <35041F55.A1D3A93B@sprynet.com> Mark Kusek wrote: > Lastly, when I said "Manas is the defining human attribute," what I > meant is that it is the Human kingdom's destiny to fully develop Manas, > as it is the Animals to fully develop Kamas. That's Textbook theosophy, > but it doesn't mean that the lines of demarcation are hard and fast > between kingdoms. Animals share in developing lower Manas up to the > point of individualization when they technically enter the Human > kingdom. The science of linguistics is actually going a long way towards demonstrating this. Humans are a LOT smarter than simple natural selection can account. While some animals can show a degree of intelligence up until about the human 2 year old level, humans progress beyond that level very rapidly, while animals appear to be hitting a ceiling. The key is the human linguistic ability. Animals (and plants) can communicate in icons (the object or action represents itself), or indexes (something associated with the object or action implies the object or action), but language involves a complex cross-linking system that allows the creation of virtual worlds which only humans can access. By looking at this top-down, it appears to be dualism, but when one realizes that the virtual world builds on indexes and icons, you can see that it is an evolutionary rather than revolutionary step. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:59:41 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: NEWS: Religious censoring of the Internet (fwd) Message-ID: <199803091659.LAA08346@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Is Theosophy next? The word "occult" might include us in the filtered-out category. > > +++++++++++++++ > > Beware! The Burning Times are back > > SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT > > WADL-New England > Regional Director: Diane DesRochers, BA;MC > > & > FIRST AMENDMENT LEGAL DEFENSE FUND: > Citizens Against Censorship > President Art Ketchen > > The Burning Times are back. This time in the form of the filtering > software Cybersitter produced by Solid Oak Software Inc. > (http://www.solidoak.com) > > Brian Milburn CEO of Solid Oak Software Inc. has decided to block or > censor access to Wiccan/Pagan sites for anyone using his product. This > includes numerous public libraries that have this software installed. > > Solid Oak Software Inc. has added the words "witch", "wicca", "wiccan", > "pagan" and "witchcraft" along with many other words associated with Paganism > to it's list of banned words. Along with words associated with other minority > religions such as "Jehovah's Witnesses", "Shaman", "Hare Krishna", "Brethren" > (which effectively blocks over 90 different Lutheran sites) and many others. > By doing this, many wiccan/pagan sites are completely blocked through use of > the software. The Pagan Awareness League has been doing it's own extensive > testing of the software and has already come up with a list of 104 > Wiccan / Pagan sites that are blocked by the software to date. Their results > can be found at http://members.aol.com/Palweb/cybsit.htm Other pages > containing the keywords mentioned are censored by the software beyond > readability. > > This blocking came about as a result of an e-mail that I had written > criticizing Solid Oak Software for blocking the National Organization for > Women's website and ALL homosexual related sites including sites focused on > gay rights and AIDS awareness. As a result of that letter, I was e-mail > bombed by the software company and had my own two domains, thepagans.com > and thewitches.com blocked. The company further made a public statement > dismissing my concerns as irrelevant due to the fact that I "run a website > promoting Witchcraft and Pagan activities." Two days after blocking my > domains, the above Wiccan/Pagan related keywords were added, effectively > blocking or censoring ALL Wiccan/Pagan websites on the web from customers > using Cybersitter. > > Solid Oak Software Inc. does not make public its list of blocked sites > or keywords. Therefore anyone purchasing the product, including public > libraries, have no way of knowing what is being filtered. They have recently > added a Cult/Occult filter to their software and this is what we as well as > many minority religions are being classified as. This software also has the > capacity to block newsgroups and censor ICQ and e-mail as well. > > A complete page with information on this issue is available at > http://www.thewitches.com/censor/blocked.htm along with suggestions on what > the Wiccan/Pagan community can do to help fight this. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:45:50 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Where did everybody go? Message-ID: >Hey Doss, > >In the last four days, I've received one digest with one post...yours. > Has everyone given up on the list or something? (I just recently >resubscribed, been busy lately) Did they just move to another list? >Like ti-l? > >Yours, >Jaqi. Hi Jaqi, We're recovering from an argument over T.S. politics. I think we lost some subscribers, too. I was getting sick of it, myself. Oh, well, such is the wonderfulness of free speech. You have to take the bad with the good. Of the theosophy lists that I belong to, theos-l has people that I relate to but who can't seem to get beyond the grudges against the T.S. organization(s), theos-talk has some spiritual snobs, and ts-l is basically an internet magazine with no interaction. All that does not really inspire me to put my time towards the devotion of internet theosophy. However, I feel toward the long time theos-l members as I would toward a family member. I may not agree with what they say, but I'm still fond of them. Actually, I've been too busy preparing for the March 21st martial arts tournament. It's too much fun doing violence to my 6'4" guy partner. This is for centuries of the oppressed female!!! Uh, are you the carrot, or are you Jaqi? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 05:38:51 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: Re: Theos-World Usefulness of the list Message-ID: <3503F0EA.2BA01AD7@usa.net> Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > The number of different viewpoints and attitudes in this world never fails to amaze > me. There are those who want to see nothing but high minded phrases and platitudes; > others who prefer to ignore dysfunctionality; those who are not vested in the > organizations and want to discuss teachings; those vested in the organizations who > want to talk about improving them, or treating their dysfunctionality etc. Too bad > we can't have a list for everyone: > 1. theos-platitudes > 2. theos-theos_philosophy > 3. theos-neo_theos_philosophy > 4. theos-TS_org_support > 5. theos-TS_org_opposed > > Until then, I guess we all have to share the same lists and whatever orientation > gets the most response, will be the one that gets the most bandwidth. And blah,blah,blah, and more blah.... Haven't ALL of you pepole belonging to some TS organization, or not, have thinked that, if ALL is a WHOLE, a UNIT, WHY NOT IT IS POSSIBLE DISSCUSS EVERYTHING??? discussing disturbing matters that are not well it is good, i know, but, like we say in Mexico, "cada cosa en su lugar" (Each thing in it's place) There is a place and a moment to discuss polithics,philosophy,science, occult matters,friendship, and proper things of the respective organization. The TS has a very important duty to the world, and all pepole working there have to keep in mind that they have the duty of DOING THE BEST,ALWAYS.If it is understandable to a certain point that most organizations get with trobule, corruption ("grilla" as we call it here) and errors, in an organization supposed to be to "the welfare and the friendship of humanity" as the TS is, is less than justified. So, there are some problems in TS organizations? OF COURSE THEY HAVE!! SO WHAT!!! If we can fix them, let's do it, fight against the end!! meanwhile, let's do our chores, folks. Estrella P.S. Let's comeback to the discussion. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 12:06:27 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: NEWS: Religious censoring of the Internet (fwd) Message-ID: <199803091959.NAA30059@proteus.imagiware.com> Paul: >> Beware! The Burning Times are back >> >> The Burning Times are back. This time in the form of >> the filtering software Cybersitter produced by Solid Oak >> Software Inc. >Is Theosophy next? The word "occult" might include us in the >filtered-out category. I've already seen this happen in one case. One person on theos-talk started having their email bounced back to the list, a few months ago, with the statement that the messages contained "banned or potentially offensive text". (There was nothing offensive or particularly bad in any of the messages that were bounced.) Another subscriber to THEOSOPHY WORLD cannot get every issue. He's on aol.com, and some issues are bounced back, with the message that the person doesn't want email with attachements. There were, though, no attachements to the email. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 16:51:16 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: NEWS: Religious censoring of the Internet (fwd) Message-ID: <35046454.8A5FA7ED@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > Is Theosophy next? The word "occult" might include us in the > filtered-out category. I checked the New York Theosophical Society site (http://www.dorsai.org/~nyts), and all the pages, including the Quest Bookshop, were accepted. On the other hand, when they come for me, I hope that there is someone left to speak for me. (On a third hand, there are a lot of so-called Theosophists out there who, if you defend paganism, accuse you of practicing black magick). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:20:56 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Where did everybody go? Message-ID: <$XLeMaAodIB1EwCv@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , Thoa Tran writes >It's too much fun doing violence to my 6'4" guy partner. This >is for centuries of the oppressed female!!! I bet this isn't in the theosophical manuals ... Alan :0) [bignose] THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:23:51 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: NEWS: Religious censoring of the Internet (fwd) Message-ID: In message <35046454.8A5FA7ED@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >On the other hand, >when they come for me, I hope that there is someone left to speak for me. (On >a >third hand, there are a lot of so-called Theosophists out there who, if you >defend >paganism, accuse you of practicing black magick). And not only paganism ... and although we don't always see eye to eye Bart, I for one will be there to speak for you. Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 21:39:13 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: NEWS: Religious censoring of the Internet (fwd) Message-ID: <3504A7D0.6C4B0218@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <35046454.8A5FA7ED@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >On the other hand, > >when they come for me, I hope that there is someone left to speak for me. (On > >a > >third hand, there are a lot of so-called Theosophists out there who, if you > >defend > >paganism, accuse you of practicing black magick). > > And not only paganism ... and although we don't always see eye to eye > Bart, I for one will be there to speak for you. Thank you. I was, of course, referring to the quotation (whose source I forget) about the Nazi's, which went something like, "First they came for the Communists, but, because I was not a Communist, I said nothing. Then, they came for the homosexuals, but, because I was not a homosexual, I said nothing. Then, they came for the Jews, but, because I was not a Jew, I said nothing. Then, they came for me, but there was nobody left to speak for me." Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 01:17:03 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Personal Privacy in the US Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980308011703.00898d50@mail.eden.com> Here is an excerpt from Washington Post. Threat to privacy is very real today. mkr ==================================================== EYE IN THE KEYHOLE Are Data Firms Getting Too Personal? By Robert O'Harrow Jr. Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, March 8, 1998; Page A1 CONWAY, Ark. – You've probably never heard of Acxiom Corp., a giant information service tucked near the rolling Ozark foothills. But chances are that Acxiom knows quite a lot about you. Twenty-four hours a day, Acxiom electronically gathers and sorts information about 196 million Americans. Credit card transactions and magazine subscriptions. Telephone numbers and real estate records. Car registrations and fishing licenses. Consumer surveys and demographic details. What Acxiom does is perfectly legal – bringing together an array of facts from scattered sources. But the phenomenon known as "data warehousing" or "datamining" represents yet another example of how traditional notions of personal privacy have become obsolete, outstripped by technology's ability to peer into personal lives. In a flash, data warehouses can assemble electronic dossiers that give marketers, insurers and in some cases law enforcement a stunningly clear look into your needs, lifestyle and spending habits. And without aggressive action to preempt the companies, individuals have no control over facts that are gathered and disseminated about them. The explosion of data warehousing has sharpened the ethical, legal and political questions about an individual's right to privacy in an increasingly open society. Access to minute details about prospective customers was once just a marketer's dream. Now, privacy advocates believe the fulfillment of that dream represents an unprecedented intrusion into individual lives. "The whole thing is scary," said Jim Settle, former supervisor of the FBI's National Computer Crimes Squad and now a security consultant in Fairfax. "It's not the government you need to worry about. It's private industry." Acxiom often can determine whether you own a dog or a cat, enjoy camping or gourmet cooking, read the Bible or lots of other books. It often can pinpoint your occupations, the car you drive, your favorite vacations. And by analyzing the equivalent of billions of pages of data, it often projects for its customers who should be offered a credit card or who is likely to buy a personal computer. Some believe this new power is fundamentally benign and ultimately benefits consumers by allowing quicker loan approvals and fewer annoying direct mail pitches. "The data has always been there," said Donald Hinman, an Acxiom executive. "It's just that now, with the technology, you can access it." Acxiom is a leader among hundreds of companies around the country that now maintain vast electronic reservoirs. These companies include retailers like Sears, Roebuck and Co., gift shop chains like Hallmark Cards Inc. and insurance companies like Allstate. Data warehouses glean much of their information from consumers themselves, who often don't realize that the facts they provide in credit card applications or at the checkout counter are valuable commodities in this new age of information trading. Firms like Acxiom are under few obligations to divulge their files to consumers, and state and federal lawmakers are only beginning to address some of the privacy questions raised by aggressive data gathering. Although banks and retailers have long kept files on customers, few have had the technological capability to sort information from various sources – everything from government records to magazine subscriptions – to produce a clearer picture of their patrons. "Technology has been the enabler," said Hinman, who likens the advances to the invention of the printing press. "Today it's almost unbounded, our ability to gather, sort and make sense of the vast quantities of information." The number of data warehouses, large and small, using faster computers, the Internet and other networks now exceeds 1,000, a tenfold increase in five years. Only a few – such as Metromail Corp. and R.L. Polk & Co. – have grown as large or powerful as Acxiom. "They have gone on an information collecting binge," said Charles Morgan Jr., Acxiom's chief executive, describing the datamining explosion. "There's just this insatiable appetite for more information to make better decisions." Privacy anxieties have drawn the attention of legislators and regulators in Washington and across the country. New federal restrictions on the use of credit reports and driving records took effect last fall; the federal Department of Health and Human Services recently made recommendations about the use of personal health information. The Clinton administration has pressed companies using the Internet to disclose more about their information gathering. And last year, the number of privacy bills introduced in state legislatures topped 8,500, according to an analysis by StateNet, which tracks legislation. In Virginia, for example, legislators are considering sharper restrictions on pharmacies concerning the use of prescription information. And the U.S. Senate two weeks ago began considering several bills that would reinforce medical privacy protections. But privacy specialists say such scattershot efforts lag far behind the race to build larger, faster data repositories. "We have witnessed an enormous transformation in information collection and use, without any of the concomitant political debate," said Joel Reidenberg, a Fordham University law professor and author. "This stuff has dramatically increased and changed, largely hidden from public view." Web of Information The surge in aggressive data gathering is obvious to anyone who has cruised the Internet lately, although no one really monitors precisely how such information is used. Sites on the World Wide Web now track visitor meanderings, using the information to target advertising online. Many also solicit names and other personal information from computer users – details that are sometimes matched to files kept in data warehouses. One New York clothing company targets children on the Web, asking for names, ages, addresses, genders and hobbies in exchange for a "Jet Set button," according to Shelley Pasnik, director of children's policy at the nonprofit Center for Media Education, a group pressing for regulation to control marketing to children. Pasnik said countless Web sites are "preying on children's desire to fit in and be cool." Credit reporting is a booming business, but officials at the country's big three credit bureaus – Experian Inc., Equifax Inc. and Trans Union Corp. – declined to divulge just how many credit reports they issue. They say such information could help their competitors. Associated Credit Bureaus Inc., a Washington-based trade group, estimates that 600 million reports were sold last year, a 25 percent jump since 1991. These reports typically contain a person's name, age, Social Security number, past and current addresses, as well as information on credit and payment histories. There also has been an uncharted increase in the number of World Wide Web sites selling reports with personal data that helps locate individuals, evaluate them for jobs or bolster legal cases against them. These details frequently are culled, legally, from credit reports. Jack Reed, chairman of Information Resource Service Co., estimated that his firm is one of several thousand – up from several hundred a few years ago – now making such information available. His company's sales of reports tied to Social Security numbers have more than tripled since 1990 to 25,000 a month. Like some other large information services, Reed said, IRSC sells data only to clients who dial in directly. A newcomer to this field is Discreet Research, a small Tamarac, Fla., operation. Discreet's home page on the Internet recently showed an eye peering through a peephole. Discreet offers a "disguised free gift packaged" phone card that can be given to individuals a customer wants to track. The card secretly generates a report of telephone numbers the user dials. Discreet also boasts of "fast turnaround" on requests for personal data. In a demonstration, owner David Muskowitz took about two minutes to find a caller's Social Security number, including the time required to correct a typing error. "We're just trying to do a professional job," said Muskowitz, who gathers much of his information by paying a modest monthly fee for access to the files of information brokers. Tina Furlow, an assistant Florida attorney general, said, "We definitely are looking into this." There are few laws restricting the collection and sale of most personal data, and federal agencies have stressed self-regulation and greater disclosure of data gathering. The Direct Marketing Association, a trade group whose members rely on marketing research, recently announced that starting in 1999, its members will be required to publicly disclose how they gather and use data. But such disclosure has its limitations. Acxiom officials, for example, will discuss how the company gathers information. But they say it is technically impractical to allow individuals to see their files. Acxiom doesn't typically provide reports on individuals. Rather, it identifies thousands or millions of people at a time who fit particular profiles: for instance, people of a certain age or weight who read certain magazines, drive certain cars or use certain credit cards could all get personalized promotions from a vacation company. Acxiom's files also can be used to weed out people who lie when, say, applying for car insurance. An insurer could send a batch of 100,000 applications to Acxiom, which would then match its store of data about applicants with what the individuals reported to the insurance company. The company does allow people to opt out of its databases, but fewer than 300 people had done so by the end of last year, according to Jennifer Barrett, Acxiom's group leader in charge of privacy issues. Barrett believes that is because the company does not abuse information. "The real issue is not what information is collected on you," she added, "it's how it's used." But Leslie L. Byrne, the former director of the U.S. Office of Consumer Affairs, offered a different explanation. "In my travels," Byrne said, "most people don't have a clue what's being gathered about them." That obfuscation is sometimes intentional, according to Maryalice Hurst, former chairman of the Direct Marketing Association's ethics committee. Some companies "go behind the customers' back to acquire what they know the customer wouldn't give them," Hurst said. "Datamining is just another word for using information the customer doesn't understand you have." "The government has to start thinking about the kinds of requirements for disclosures that should be made by information-collecting companies," said Paul Schwartz, a University of Arkansas law professor and privacy specialist. "Consumers are not getting a voice." Convenience vs. Privacy Americans are deeply ambivalent about all of these developments, even as they have grown to depend on the convenience electronic networks and databases offer. Data warehousers contend their techniques already have improved customer service by insurance firms, banks and department stores. When a customer calls, a company can "flood" the computer screen with personal information, offering "one-on-one" service, according to Neil Mendelson, director of data warehousing for software firm Oracle Corp. "What we're going for as an industry is 'a segment of one,'‚" Mendelson said. But these benefits haven't quelled public anxiety about privacy erosion. In a 1996 survey by Louis Harris & Associates for Equifax Inc., a major credit bureau, almost 9 of 10 respondents voiced concern about privacy threats. In another Louis Harris survey conducted last year for a privacy research group, 8 of 10 computer users agreed that "consumers have lost all control over how personal information about them is circulated and used by companies." At Acxiom, officials acknowledge that many Americans are unnerved by the growing capacity to gather and manipulate personal data. "My mom says I work for Big Brother," joked spokeswoman Marice Gardner. But Hinman insists that rigorous self-regulation by companies has minimized abuse. Acxiom also touts its prowess. A database query that took six minutes on a giant mainframe computer in 1994 now takes 19 seconds. Officials just announced they will soon be able to deliver massive amounts of data to customers over the Internet in a few hours – something that now takes up to a week. The value of such computing power was illustrated in the recent sale of Experian, a giant credit bureau and information services company formerly known as TRW Information Systems & Services. It sold for more than $1 billion in the fall of 1996. Seven weeks later, it was resold for $1.7 billion. Analysts at the META Group estimate that the money spent on building and maintaining data warehouses will increase from about $2 billion in 1995 to more than $10 billion in the year 2000. "Our economy is not simply supplied by information, it is fueled by information," D. Van Skilling, Experian's chief executive, said at a conference last fall. "I believe we are at the beginning of a great new era." Industry officials say companies also will find ever more clever ways to use data. Oracle's Mendelson, for example, predicts that companies will use databases to court friends and relatives of their most profitable customers. Members of a customer's "circle of influence" – perhaps a mother or best friend – could be targeted by an airline and offered perquisites to build customer loyalty, he said. Other predictions go beyond marketing. With improved access, heart patients will be able to go online to compare track records of heart surgeons, or drivers will be able to get maintenance records of automobile dealerships, according to Michael J. Saylor, president of MicroStrategy Inc. in Vienna, a leading producer of warehousing software. "There are all sorts of instances like that in which you are mining for some tidbit of information," he said. For now, Acxiom, whose revenue has grown from $91 million to $402 million over the past five years, remains focused on compiling information about people and getting it to companies as quickly as possible. After more than two decades of gathering facts, it has 350 trillion characters of consumer data in its computer library. That includes motor-vehicle registrations from 34 states, real estate records from 41 states, reverse telephone records from 1,100 communities and millions of credit card transactions. It has access to legal marketing information from credit reports, including Social Security numbers and addresses, because it is partly owned by Trans Union and manages Trans Union's files. And twice a month, it receives every change of address filed with the U.S. Postal Service. Acxiom recently bought a share of Bigfoot Partners, a New York firm that maintains e-mail addresses and specializes in direct marketing on the Internet. This spring, Acxiom customers will be able to buy access to its data storehouse via the World Wide Web. "It's going to let a lot of smaller companies have access to the same things the very biggest guys have got," Morgan said. "It's just going to be a dramatic change." ========end=============== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:44:16 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Defining human? Message-ID: <199803071444.JAA14892@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Mark wrote: > > We are more animal than we think. Not that that's a bad thing, just a > fact. A lot of what we take for granted as being "Human" isn't at all: > it's animal or vegetal or below. Manas is the defining human attribute. > which sounds a lot like theosophical orthodoxy, but doesn't ring true to me. To define manas in a way that would exclude the cognitive processes of animals is difficult to imagine. Parrots, for example, have been shown to understand and be able to name colors, numbers, greater/lesser, various substances (wood, metal, etc.). Higher apes can use language to express feelings and desires but also to describe objective reality. Dolphins, whose presence I'd never been in until recently, radiate something that simply *knows*-- looking into their eyes is quite different from any other animal encounter I've had. And elephants have recently been shown to be have religious behavior, in the form of elaborate funeral ceremonies. All this suggests to me that "manas is the defining human attribute" is hubris, whatever HPB and her Masters said. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:00:14 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1453 Message-ID: <350039AF.77B2@withoutwalls.com> > From: "K. Paul Johnson" > > The cumulative effect of reading a lot of these stories is to > realize that feelings of compassion and caring are not just our > unique human capacity; they're inherent in life itself. And that > somehow makes one appreciate life in all its variety in a new > way. We are more animal than we think. Not that that's a bad thing, just a fact. A lot of what we take for granted as being "Human" isn't at all: it's animal or vegetal or below. Manas is the defining human attribute. Mark From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 04:02:29 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome Message-ID: <+DVepFAVbMA1EwLE@nellie2.demon.co.uk> Theosophy International welcomes Connie Henry! Personal e-mail welcomes to: lite50@aol.com Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 05:15:45 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TV - Northern Exposure Message-ID: <34FE8961.2EE8@eden.com> Here is a mention of Theosophy in the TV program. >has anyone ever heard of Theosophy? It is mentioned in several >episodes. More references to the Theosophical meeting hall in >Cicilly...l8r So TV is helping Theosophy. The screen writer may be a Theosophist? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:57:47 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Compassion in animals Message-ID: <199803060057.TAA15136@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> At dinner tonight I was reading a new book called The Compassion of Animals, a collection of true stories of ways that animals have demonstrated caring and concern for others. Usually it's their owners, and protection from fire or crime or poison or snakebite. But these I'd heard before, and what was most striking were the stories about animal compassion for strangers. Like the stray dog who found a newborn infant that had been abandoned to die on a Detroit alley, and wrapped herself around the baby to keep him warm and protect him. Or the bear in a zoo in California whose enclosure was invaded by a hungry stray cat while he was eating dinner. Observers feared the bear would attack the cat that was begging for food, but he actually took food out of his bowl and put it down for the cat to eat. Now they're permanent friends. Maybe you've heard of incidents where children fell into the ape enclosure in zoos and were gently carried to safety (in one case) or shown deep concern and protectiveness (in another) by gorillas. Pigs featured in a couple of stories, protecting one owner from a criminal and warning another of carbon monoxide in a van. There was even a man whose iguana saved him from death by whacking him in the face with his tail after he had passed out! The cumulative effect of reading a lot of these stories is to realize that feelings of compassion and caring are not just our unique human capacity; they're inherent in life itself. And that somehow makes one appreciate life in all its variety in a new way. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:09:29 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Hoeller lecture at San Antonio TS Lodge Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980305170929.006bcf70@mail.eden.com> Public Lecture: >Speaker: Stephan A Hoeller > >Subject: The Lost Gospels: The Wisdom of the Dead Sea Scrolls and > Gnostic Gospels > >Place: San Antonio TS Lodge > >Address: 725 West Ashby, San Antonio TX > > Date: March 11, 1998 > >Time: 7.30 pm > >Cost: Suggested donation of $10.00 For more information: Call (210) 306-8505 or (210) 696-5550 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:34:50 +1000 From: Dieter Dambiec Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1450 Message-ID: <01BD47D0.ED691B20.d.dambiec@student.canberra.edu> On Tuesday, March 03, 1998 11:09 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] wrote: > From: M K Ramadoss > > Let us not compare what Aurobindo did or Gandhi did. > They were never accused of any personal criminal activity. Excuse, Aurobindo prepared secretly for armed insurrection. He said "I am neither an impotent moralist nor a weak pacifist". He clearly thought armed revolt was right. In first decade to 1910 he carried out secret activities in Bengal. I also query whether Gandhi was never charged for any offence. It is not proper to boldy assert none of these things happened when numerous historical works show to the contrary (particularly for Aurobindo). > It is up to them to do their own research and come to their own conclusion. The research must be based on facts not what one wants to believe subjectively or what one is taught to believe by distorted media perceptions. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:23:58 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Ed's message Message-ID: <199803041423.JAA13843@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Hey all, There was much of value in Ed's post, but I concur with Doss that there is something wrong with keeping silent all that time and then leaving while saying that the discussion should have been something other than what it was. This relates to my recent post stimulated by simultaneous "Why don't *all of you* change the subject to something *I* want to talk about" posts on two different lists. Theosophical politics is not my favorite subject by any means, but many TSA members feel that there is something desperately wrong in the section, a huge gap between the leadership and member concerns. It's a fine idea to work against letting one's anger take over, but as Cayce said "A person who is never angry isn't worth much, but one who is not in control of his anger is worth even less." Some kinds of injustice, hypocrisy, manipulation, arrogance, evasiveness, and outright deception by leadership *require* an angry reaction from the membership if things are ever going to change. It seems healthier to me to look into all the facts, decide if the above terms characterize the situation, allow oneself to feel anger about them, but then *contructively channel* that energy into making TSA a more worthy instrument of our collective will. The more the leadership (and Ed is definitely in that camp by all accounts I've heard) dismisses member concerns as subjective, personal, inconsequential, the more members will conclude that they are talking to a stone wall. That's not what we elect board or officers to be. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:28:14 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Ed's exit Message-ID: <34FD64FE.688F3B86@gate.net> Greetings, Ed, how can anyone take you seriously when you drop your "stuff" on the group and then run off. I suspect as you skedaddle, you feel good having 'tanked' everyone. What has really happened is that your own arguments are weakened then nullified. Unfortunately, you loose a valuable tool to work for your beliefs. Why did you do that to yourself, us and the TSA? It does not take an advanced degree to see that you are a participant in what you so blithly accuse others of, or being vested in. Your actions are indicative of what so many find repugnent about the "Wheatonists" view, attitude and work. If as you suggest this group splits then, you have taken yourself out of the loop by only subscibing to an effort you find acceptable. Perhaps Ed you may have a higher path to tread. If you bring reasoned answers to the myriad 'political' and non-politcal questions that have been posed on this list, you will be working for Theosophy. Addressing the issues is more theosophical than stating an opinion, and using someone else's pithy work to descibe your edited feelings, then fleeing. Ed, I for one appreciate the time you have taken to log on and off the list. Seeking the democratic process is, I am sure, an integral part of your makeup. Perhaps you may wish to stay a while and work toward a larger idea, neh, the IDEAL of Theosophy with us. Like you, we are just atoms trying to find the cell which is part of the congerie that supports the organ etc..., that participates in the effort of a greater being in whom we find out dharma. Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 10:52:19 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Re: Politics on the Theos discussion lists Message-ID: <01IU9KS42ZAQ9I4CD1@InfoAve.Net> hi - I just have a couple points. 1) it is implicit in the first object that any person who claims to be a theosophist must be willing to accept differences between individuals as well as (learn how to) interact with those individuals constructively. Internet discussion lists are the perfect medium to allow each individual to grow and experience *first hand* exactly those difficulties which are contained within the first object. i.e. each theosophist had better learn how to get along with ALL other theosophists *or* they will remain in that state of total hypocrisy. Using *silence* as a technique to achieve the first object is only ignoring the issue, or worse yet...denying their own reality and Karma. 2) Politics is inherent in our humanity and can not be avoided on any unmoderated list. Theosophists do not even agree on what *is* political. One person's expose of history or science is to another person a political attack on their personal/religious beliefs. peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:52:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1450 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980304155200.00c27f64@mail.eden.com> At 08:57 AM 3/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Tuesday, March 03, 1998 11:09 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] >wrote: >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> Let us not compare what Aurobindo did or Gandhi did. >> They were never accused of any personal criminal activity. > >Excuse, Aurobindo prepared secretly for armed insurrection. He said "I am >neither an impotent moralist nor a weak pacifist". He clearly thought armed >revolt was right. In first decade to 1910 he carried out secret activities in >Bengal. > >I also query whether Gandhi was never charged for any offence. > >It is not proper to boldy assert none of these things happened when numerous >historical works show to the contrary (particularly for Aurobindo). > >> It is up to them to do their own research and come to their own conclusion. > >The research must be based on facts not what one wants to believe subjectively >or what one is taught to believe by distorted media perceptions. I fully support everyone to do their home work and dig up the facts and study the facts and come to their own conclusions. Facts speak for themselves. I believe Truth will ultimately triumph. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:52:02 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Ed's exit Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980304155202.00c2addc@mail.eden.com> Ken: Did you mail a copy of this response to Ed's e-mail address so that he will be able to see your msg. If not you may want to send him a copy since he is not subscribed here and he may not see your msg. I have copied all my responses here and at theos-talk to his e-mail address. mkr ================================================== At 09:30 AM 3/4/98 -0500, Ken wrote: >Greetings, > >Ed, how can anyone take you seriously when you drop your "stuff" on the >group and then run off. I suspect as you skedaddle, you feel good having >'tanked' everyone. What has really happened is that your own arguments >are weakened then nullified. Unfortunately, you loose a valuable tool to >work for your beliefs. Why did you do that to yourself, us and the TSA? > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:52:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Ed Abdill's Post Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980304155209.00c2fb14@mail.eden.com> Posted to theos-l and theos-talk and cc to Ed Based on some of the responses we have seen, in all fairness to Ed, I should post a few thoughts of mine in the matter. Anyone who is or was a part of the administration or working as an active National Speaker cannot afford to take an independent stand on matters not in line with that of the administration. So let us keep this in view when we deal with Ed's msg. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:26:11 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Politics on the Theos discussion lists Message-ID: In message <01IU82YJ1XQY9JD40D@InfoAve.Net>, John E Mead writes >When and if there are two lists, one for theosophical ideas and one for >politics, I will gladly subscribe to the former. In the meantime, I ask >now to be removed from this list. Hopefully the contributors will not >interpret my action to mean that I do not care about the structure of the >Society and the behavior of its members. I care very much indeed, but I >choose to deal with such matters differently from the way they are dealt >with here. Ed Abdill But this list is not about the Theosophical Society (I presume Ed means TSA) but a discussion list for theosophy in general, which, whether we like it or not, has a clearly political dimension. Many of those who sobsibe are not members of any TS, and some are members of other T Societies. If Ed wishes to discuss theosophical ideas, then let him start a discussion on a subject of his own choosing. The political element in theos-l discussions has arisen because, it would seem, that although they *could* do so, many of the TSA officers clearly *do not want* to engage in discussion on theos-l - a list *designed* for theosophical *and related* discussion. They have every opportunity to join us in our discussions, and to make their own, possibly valuable contributions to the theosophical ideals. In short, if anyone want to discuss theosophical interests (of any kind) on this list, no one is stopping them - the list is unmoderated, and we can all say whatever we like. Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 00:22:23 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Politics on the Theos discussion lists Message-ID: In message <3.0.3.32.19980303201349.00b872fc@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >all the >Theosophical Theories we discuss is *not* based on first hand knowledge of >any of us. How do you know this, Doss? I for one try to speak/write from personal experience whenever possible. Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:29:26 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome! Message-ID: Theosophy International welcomes Corinne Heitz! Personal welcomes to: 101370.2732@compuserve.com Website: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/Homepages/C_HEITZ Alan THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 21:27:46 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Politics on the Theos discussion lists Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980304212746.00dffc30@mail.eden.com> At 08:19 PM 3/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >In message <3.0.3.32.19980303201349.00b872fc@mail.eden.com>, >M K Ramadoss writes >>all the >>Theosophical Theories we discuss is *not* based on first hand knowledge of >>any of us. > >How do you know this, Doss? I for one try to speak/write from >personal experience whenever possible. > >Alan >--------- Thanks for correcting. You are an exception. May there are few other exceptions. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:01:36 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Politics on the Theos discussion lists Message-ID: <01IU82YJ1XQY9JD40D@InfoAve.Net> I am posting this per Ed's request. I suggest any comments be mailed direct to Ed (EdAbdill@compuserve.com) and also to theos-L@vnet.net (unless it is a personal letter) any personal email reponses sent to you from Ed should be treated as such. john e. mead list admin >Date: Monday, March 02, 1998 8:50 PM >From: ED C ABDILL >To: Mead J >Subject: Message and UN-subscribe Dear John: I subscribed to Theos-l some time ago. At that time I had just obtained an email address on CompuServe that was numerical. That address is still valid, but to make life simpler I changed it to EdAbdill@Compuserve.com. A few days ago I tried to post something on the list asked to un-subscribe. A note came back saying that I was not a subscriber. The problem is likely the different address. Would you please post the following and then take me off the list? The original email subscription address was 110565.405@compuserve.com Thanks very much. Ed For months I have been concerned about the political material that fills this list. While I do not question anyone's motive or right to speak their mind, a lot of what appears here gives the reader the IMPRESSION that frequently the writers are angry, demanding, self righteousness, and quick to suspect others of wrong doing. What follows is not meant to criticise anyone or open a dialog on the way the Society is managed by its elected officials. Rather, I want simply to suggest a way of looking at anger, attempts to change others, the insideous problem of self righteousness, our use of the word "Truth," and the suspicion that we humans often face in ourselves. ANGER: Anger is reactive; it is part of our animal nature. When we give in to it we betray our weakness. It makes us its victim and muddles our mind. Peace (as a power) is the mark of the strong, not the weak. By conscious effort it can be realized and directed by the spiritual will. Whenever I get angry about anything I try to quickly remember that anger (thought justified or not) is a form of violence. By getting angry, I release emotional violence into the psychological atmosphere, and because we are all interrelated, I thereby contribute to a chain reaction of anger that affects the whole. Recently I have made a special effort to check any tendency toward anger because I felt that the world's anger was near a boiling point. Whether it helped or not, I tried to tap into that peace that passes understanding and direct what I could of it to those involved in negotiations concerning Iraq. ATTEMPTS TO CHANGE OTHERS: We human beings believe that our opinions are right. If we thought otherwise, we would change our opinions. Sometimes we feel so strongly that we are right that we try to change someone else. Seldom, if ever, do we succeed. In fact, it is so clear to me that I must "first remove the beam" in my own eye, that I do not attempt, and probably have no ability to "remove the mote that is in [my] brother's eye." As Krishnamurti and other wise individuals have said, it is by changing ourselves that we change the world. But we human beings find it easier, and ever so much more fun, to attempt to change others. When I want to force someone else to do what I think is right, I try to remember what the adepts say they do. KH writes, "We advise - and never order. But we do influence individuals." (Letter No. 43 , ML 47) Letter No. 5, ML 4, refers to a dangerous world situation - possible agression by Russia against Tibet. Although the adepts claim to have extraordinary powers they could have used to stop the agression, they took a wiser course. Rather than demanding, or exerting occult power, they simply influenced people in the hope that their thought would be picked up, accepted as reasonable, and acted upon. Speaking of Russia, KH writes: "If she does not succeed it will be due to us; and herein at least we will deserve your gratitude." The IF in the sentence shows they did not force their views on anyone, even when they knew that they were right and a different course of action might bring war. I fear we are not so wise. SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS: It is insidious and we seldom notice it in ourselves. HPB says we are "constantly self deceived," and from seeing what little I can of my own personality, I believe her. Koot Humi once called self righteousness "selfishness," and a very dangerous form of it at that. In Letter No. 134, ML 64, he writes: "There are persons who, without ever showing any external sign of selfishness, are intensely selfish in their inner spiritual aspirations. These will follow the path once chosen by them with their eyes closed to the interests of all but themselves, and see nothing outside the narrow pathway filled with their own personality. They are so intensely absorbed in the contemplation of their own supposed 'righteousness' that nothing can ever appear right to them outside the focus of their own vision distorted by their self-complacent contemplation, and their judgment of the right and wrong." USE OF THE WORD TRUTH: When speaking of political matters, the Society's motto (There is no religion higher than truth) has sometimes been invoked in such a way that the reader is led to believe that the writer thinks his facts and/or opinions are the Truth referred to in the motto. May I say that I do not believe that the word Truth, as used in the motto, refers to the substantiation of rumor, nor even to historical facts. Rather, the word Truth refers to the eternal principles upon which this universe is based. No religion can claim to have a higher Truth than that. Whether accurate or not, facts, rumors, and opinions are not part of that kind of Truth. SUSPICION: In Letter No. 11, ML 28, KH writes: "Imagination as well as will - creates. Suspicion is the most powerful provocative agent of imagination...Beware! You have already begotten in you the germ of a future hideous monster, and instead of the realization of your purest and highest ideals you may one day evoke a phantom, which, barring every passage of light will leave you in a worse darkness than before, and, will harass you to the end of your days." Granted, KH spoke to Mr. Hume. Nevertheless, his remarks clearly show what suspicion can do if we allow it to activate our imagination. NEW LIST: The theosophical philosophy can make an enormous difference in our world if it is pursued and lived. I am sure that most members would accept that, but I am afraid that a new commer to theosophy might be turned away from that philosophy by many of the charges and counter charges posted on this list. To help prevent that, would it not be better to create two lists: One for political views about the organization and a second for discussion of the theosophical philosophy? Having said that, I do not wish to imply that when one disagrees with officials they should be silent. Indeed, they should say they disagree and why. Better yet, they might run for office, knowing that if elected they will themselves become the dart board instead of the dart. If a new "political" list is created, then those who want to address political matters will still have an open forum, and all who subscribe will know that the list is dedicated to political views, not to the theosophical philosophy. When and if there are two lists, one for theosophical ideas and one for politics, I will gladly subscribe to the former. In the meantime, I ask now to be removed from this list. Hopefully the contributors will not interpret my action to mean that I do not care about the structure of the Society and the behavior of its members. I care very much indeed, but I choose to deal with such matters differently from the way they are dealt with here. Ed Abdill From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:16:07 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: No legal troubles? Message-ID: <199803031416.JAA28478@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Dear Doss, Even a cursory examination of history suffices to disprove your extravagant claim that no Theosophical organization has ever had any legal troubles or criminal investigations. Can't imagine where you get that idea. In the Adyar TS there were the Leadbeater scandal of 1906, with allegations of criminal behavior and an internal investigation that led to CWL's resignation from the society. Before that was the Judge scandal of 1894-5, again leading to an internal investigation, this time concerning forgery and resulting in no decision but later leading to Judge's leading the American Section out of the TS. There was the lengthy and involved case of Krishnamurti's father suing Besant and the TS for custody of his sons, based on accusations of criminal behavior by CWL. In Point Loma, there were legal troubles associated with accusations of child abuse due to harsh discipline. ULT had an internal lawsuit in the 1930s instigated by Crosbie's wife and others against the leadership, although I cannot tell you the result or specific accusations. Leadbeater was the subject of an extended police investigation in Australia after relocating there. There have also been financial scandals in Adyar's history, one near the turn of the century and another rather recently. So your basis for "discrimination" between bona fide and unreliable organizations doesn't work as a justification for throwing stones at Ananda Marga-- you're in a glass house. Cheers, KPJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 09:44:17 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: No legal troubles? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980303154417.0071dafc@mail.eden.com> At 09:26 AM 3/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Doss, > >So your basis for "discrimination" between bona fide and >unreliable organizations doesn't work as a justification for >throwing stones at Ananda Marga-- you're in a glass house. > >Cheers, >KPJ > Dear Paul: The situation regarding Ananda Marga is quite serious. As I recall, the founder and some of his assistants were prosecuted for very serious capital crimes even though they were finally acquitted. This happended in India which has a very independent judicial system comparable to the best in the world. Any day I would be very wary of *any* organization with such a background. This was the reason for my response. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 13:12:01 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Spanish Theosophy Maillist Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980303131201.00a247e8@mail.eden.com> As most of you may know theos-span is *the* only spanish language maillist on Internet. While it has great potential to help the spanish speaking members, there has been very few msgs on it recently. Anyone who is fluent in spanish may want to sign up and help to spread Theosophy to spanish speaking population. M K Ramadoss ________________________________________________________________ Subscribe to theos-span: send msg to listserv@vnet.net with msg: subscribe theos-span Your name From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:13:49 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Politics on the Theos discussion lists Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980303201349.00b872fc@mail.eden.com> OnMonday, March 02, 1998 8:50 PM, ED C ABDILL wrote: >>>>>clip<<<<< >NEW LIST: The theosophical philosophy can make an enormous difference in >our world if it is pursued and lived. I am sure that most members would >accept that, but I am afraid that a new commer to theosophy might be turned >away from that philosophy by many of the charges and counter charges posted >on this list. To help prevent that, would it not be better to create two >lists: One for political views about the organization and a second for >discussion of the theosophical philosophy? >>>>>>> clip<<<<<<<<< First of all, I think Ed should be congratulated for taking the time to share his views. The question of discussing Theosophical ideas and philosophy and their "living" has been raised several times by several subscribers. Each time when someone brought this up, it was repeatedly suggested that they and others may want to start a new thread which might not only draw attention but motivate subscribers to actively participate by posting their responses. Most of the time we have not heard from the inquirers who brought this up. The fundamental question is who is going to bell the cat? How do we go about giving a start in this direction? Any one who has an idea which they think is going to work, may want to consider posting a topic or topics in the hope it will be interesting enough to be followed up by many subscribers. Some of us may have to pray and meditate hoping it would produce some results soon. Since the e-mail medium is the most levelling field, I have personally encouraged any reluctant newbees to take courage and post anything even if their Theosophical questions or ideas may seem off the wall, since all the Theosophical Theories we discuss is *not* based on first hand knowledge of any of us. I don't see any reason for creating any more lists for Theosophy since John Mead, had from day one several maillists ti-l, theos-buds, theos-roots, and theos-span. I am copying this to Ed. My 0.02. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:21:23 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World The Political Material That Fills theos-l Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980303212123.00a25a90@mail.eden.com> On March 02, 1998 8:50 PM Ed Abdill wrote: >For months I have been concerned about the political material >that fills this list. While I do not question anyone's motive or >right to speak their mind, a lot of what appears here gives the >reader the IMPRESSION that frequently the writers are angry, >demanding, self righteousness, and quick to suspect others of >wrong doing. > >What follows is not meant to criticize anyone or open a dialog on >the way the Society is managed by its elected officials. Rather, >I want simply to suggest a way of looking at anger, attempts to >change others, the insidious problem of self righteousness, our >use of the word "Truth," and the suspicion that we humans often >face in ourselves. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clip <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< First of all, we need to understand the fundamental fact that unmoderated (uncensored) maillists are a totally new medium not like any world has seen in the past. It is a great level field in which men and women, members and non members alike can speak up their minds and views with no fear of being censored or controlled directly or indirectly. The world all over in the past is used to censored and controlled communication medium for too long a time and hence coming up to speed to deal with the new medium is going to not easy both culturally and intellectually especially for the organizations. We all need to look at Theosophy and Theosophical Society. Even a newbee should know the strengths and solidity of Theosophy and not to confuse it with the strengths and weaknesses and administrative and organizational problems of the organization both in the past as well as in the present as well as the current leadership. This applies not only to the United States but other countries in the world as well. I would rather associate myself with an organization whose past and present problems I am fullly aware up front rather than taken by surprise when it is too late. When anyone speaks up their mind in a free forum like this, it should be very welcome. People who take the time to post msgs do it using their computer, pay for their Internet connection, and take their personal time to write and post the msgs. Why do they do it? It is their enthusiasm for the future of Theosophy and the organization and the organizational issues they are concerned about. If the responses appear to show anger or any other characteristic, one should not forget the enthusiasm that is the driving force behind them. It is quite possible that from time to time there may have been msgs which contained incorrect information or facts. I know that everyone posting msgs here are honest and well meaning and trustworthy person and honest mistakes if any are likely due to lack of accurate information or facts in their possession. When such situations arise, it is the duty of everyone to post a msg to correct the info or facts. It is quite possible that it is only those in administration who know the actual facts and are in a position to correct any wrong facts posted here. If not corrected promptly, no one on this list should be blamed. Looking at the downward membership trend of TS, surely many of those posting msgs are really concerned and are thinking out loud. Such an activity should be welcomed because it would give some ideas to think about and may even save the organization. So however unsavory or harsh such posts may look, one should take time and look at them with a view to see if it could help. We need to keep in mind that many of the comments on the leadership and organization which may look like skepticism may in fact based on one or more of past actions of the leadership and the organization. Such questioning and caution is very healthy for everybody. I am copying this Ed for his info. My 0.002 M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:37:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Politics on the Theos discussion lists Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980303213732.007208d8@mail.eden.com> On Monday, March 02, 1998 8:50 PM, ED C ABDILL wrote a detailed msg on the subject. I just verified that he was a past District Director (and a member of Board of Directors) of Theosophical Society in America. During the time when he had subscribed to the maillist, he could have helped in (a) starting an interesting thread on Theosophy which could have fired the interests of all of us and (b) could have corrected any erroneous facts anyone had posted in any msg. He as a past District Director should be very familiar with the organizational issues and facts and thus was in a position to help everyone of us here. But to the best of my recall, I have not seen even a single msg from him on this maillist. While no one can be forced to post msgs against his will, it makes one wonder why such silence from a knowledgeable person. I am copying this to Ed. My 0.002 M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:56:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World The Political Material That Fills theos-l Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980303225659.00a26140@mail.eden.com> At 08:22 PM 3/3/98 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-03-03 19:26:27 EST, Abdill writes: > ><< When and if there are two lists, one for theosophical ideas and one for >politics, I will gladly subscribe to the former. In the meantime, I ask now >to be removed from this list. >> > >It's true that the dialogue here can be mean-spirited and argumentative. >However, I don't get the impression that anyone here on this list maintains >that he or she is fountain of the truth. Opinions are sometimes forcefully >stated, often in a very undiplomatic and tactless way. I have been upset with >this at times and have stated so on occasion. On the other hand, there's the >old saying: "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". Apparently >someone decided to get out of the kitchen. That's his right but hopefully the >rest of us will remain here and enjoy making the broth. >my two cents > >Lmhem111 Thanks for your feedback. I have just posted a response to Ed's msg. I am still wondering why during during the time Ed was subscribed to theos-l, he never made any attempt to help start any Theosophical discussions going on. May be if he has tried and had it been successful, we may now have a very dynamic maillist with overwhelming traffic necessitating having multiple maillists. I am copying this to Ed. My 0.02 M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 07:54:53 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Access Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980302075453.00c1f4c4@mail.eden.com> Here is the latest on Internet access. One of these days everyone on earth could have access to Internet. mkr Successful satellite launch first step toward Teledesic's $9B wireless Internet access system. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 08:05:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1448 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980302080532.00c031d4@mail.eden.com> Thanks for the feedback. Let us not compare what Aurobindo did or Gandhi did. They were never accused of any personal criminal activity. As I said before, as a matter of personal rule of thumb, I do not associate with any organization which has legal (criminal) problems. This is all the more so if there are problems in more than one country. This simple rule of thumb has worked for me for a very long time. All I can say is I want to share this with subscribers here on this list who may not know about Sarkar and Ananda Marga. It is up to them to do their own research and come to their own conclusion. It is their life. I hope they don't later on regret their decisions. MKR ===================================== At 08:04 AM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Monday, March 02, 1998 4:29 AM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] >wrote: >> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 09:37:40 -0600 >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> One of the outstanding records of *all* Theosophical organizations is that >> there may have been differences of philosophy/approach, *none* of them have >> ever been involved in any legal troubles, especially criminal ones, in >> *any* country. >> >> Coming with this background, one is troubled about any organization which >> gets tangled with governments of multiple countries. >> >Aurobindo, a great yogi, was accussed of various activities in the fight for >Indian independence. He was fighting for Indian independence well before >Ghandi. > >Krsna, in the Mahabharata also used the tactic of 'covering over the sun' to >win the battle. > >In another sense greatness is revealed in the fight against aggressors. This is >common throughout various 'scripture'. > >See the Ramayana, the great epic. It describes that Shrii Rama with all his >might waged a war against Ravana, who abducted his wife. Shrii Rama's action >was in no way against the principle of Ahimsa (non-violence), because he >invaded Lanka not with a desire to conquer a territory or to cause any harm. > >See the Mahabharata. Mahapurusa Shrii Krsna had insisted upon the Pandavas to >take up arms against the Kaorvas, because the Kaoravas were aggressors >(Atatayii) who had taken possession of the land by force. None would accuse the >very incarnation of love, Shriiman Mahaprabhu, one of the great revolutionists >in social and spiritual world, of adopting ways associated with Himsa (violent >intent); but he too had pounced like a lion on the tyrant Kazi (Judge). If >Himsa and use of force were synonymous, Maha-Prabhu, the incarnation of mercy, >certainly would not have done so. > >It is cardinal moral principles that count at all stages. The law should >reflect those cardinal moral principles. Of course, wild civil disobediance is >not in society's best interest. > >THE CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE MOVEMENT > > When a rogue elephant becomes violent it does not feel >hungry, and consequently it may not eat or even drink for >many days together. In such an abnormal condition, it's over >heated brain compels it to break all rules and >regulations....and it even challenges the laws of nature >themselves. > > You know, those who instigate others to break rules >will always cause bad consequences. Let us take an example. >A prominent leader of India's struggle for independence >started a civil disobedience movement against the British to >attain the political independence of India. Some people >suggest that the aim of this movement was not to break any >rules or disobey the law. The aim was to express the truth >after dispelling the cimmerian darkness. The aim was to >snatch independence from the clutches of the forces of >darkness. It was an effort to find the truth.... it was >satyagraha. However, it makes no difference what name you >call a rose flower, it is still a rose. Even if you send an >ordinary rice crushing mill to heaven, it's function is >still the same. If people have disregard for the law, there >is every possibility that they will follow the path of >law-breaking. This very psychology causes people to >challenges legal statutes, and the result is never good. > > Today if people follow in the footsteps of the past, >they will be led to burn buses and trams which they >themselves have purchased... they will be led to burn >governmental and nongovernmental buildings, destroying their >own hard earned wealth. When people adopt these methods >today, it is because the psychology of the civil >disobedience movement of the British time is still working >-- in other words satyagraha. However, rational people would >not describe such methods as satyagraha but as duragraha -- >a hand-tool to destroy the society. > > Those who hold the communist banner and attack >helpless people in the name of revolution, losing sight of >human values under the impetus of their confused, irrational >philosophy, are goaded by the same type of psychology. > > Nature dislikes disobedience or the act of breaking >the law. As long as legal statutes exist, they must be >obeyed. If they are found to be harmful or stand in the way >of the progress of society, or if they hold back the >forward march of humanity like a serpent entwined around the >legs of a person, these statutes should be ground into the >dust and new laws should be enacted and obeyed. Otherwise, >the law of big fish eating little fish will dominate >society, and this will harm the interests of both the >individual and the collective. The civil disobedience >movement has left behind a chaotic imprint on society. > >PR Sarkar 11 September 1988, Calcutta Shabda Cayanika, Part >8UfBody > > > > > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 2 Mar 1998 18:59:25 -0000 From: Estrella Subject: Message-ID: <19980302185925.14852.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net> >Estimada Estrella, > >Piensa ir a Madrid y Sevilla el fin de Marzo, >y me gustaria leer theos-span para practicar >mi espanol. Pero no se como encontrarlo. Puede >decirme? > >Muchas gracias, > >Pablo Querido Pablo: Me da gusto que sepas español, aunque sea poco. La dirección que buscas es: theos-span@vnet.net te suscribes igual que a la lista de theos-l. Si tienes algún problema, escríbeme o escríbele a Eldon o a J.Mead (dueño de theos-span) Estrella P.S.Me da gusto que escribas.hace falta que dinamicemos la lista en español. Facultad de Ciencias Universidad Autónoma de Baja California. Km. 106 Carretera Tijuana Ensenada Apdo. postal 1880. Ensenada, B.C. 22800, México. Tel: 01(61) 74-45-60 ext. 116, FAX, est. 105 E.mail. a@bahia.ens.uabc.mx From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 2 Mar 1998 18:59:23 -0000 From: Estrella Subject: the spanish list Message-ID: <19980302185923.14842.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net> >Estimada Estrella, > >Piensa ir a Madrid y Sevilla el fin de Marzo, >y me gustaria leer theos-span para practicar >mi espanol. Pero no se como encontrarlo. Puede >decirme? > >Muchas gracias, > >Pablo Querido Pablo: el modo de suscribirse a la lista es igual que el suscribirse a theos-l. la dirección es: theos-span@vnet.net Si tienes algun problema, escríbeme a mí o a Eldon. Gracias. Estrella Facultad de Ciencias Universidad Autónoma de Baja California. Km. 106 Carretera Tijuana Ensenada Apdo. postal 1880. Ensenada, B.C. 22800, México. Tel: 01(61) 74-45-60 ext. 116, FAX, est. 105 E.mail. a@bahia.ens.uabc.mx From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 2 Mar 1998 18:59:21 -0000 From: Estrella Subject: Re:lists in spanish Message-ID: <19980302185921.14829.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net> >Estimada Estrella, > >Piensa ir a Madrid y Sevilla el fin de Marzo, >y me gustaria leer theos-span para practicar >mi espanol. Pero no se como encontrarlo. Puede >decirme? > >Muchas gracias, > >Pablo Pablo: Mucho gusto me da que sepas español, aunque sea poco. la direccion de theos-span es: theos-span@vnet.net. te suscribes igual modo que suscribirse a theos-l. En caso de algun problema, escríbeme o escríbele a Eldon, o a J.Mead. Estrella P.S. Hace falta más dinamismo en theos-span.me da gusto que mas gente le interese suscribirse a ella. Facultad de Ciencias Universidad Autónoma de Baja California. Km. 106 Carretera Tijuana Ensenada Apdo. postal 1880. Ensenada, B.C. 22800, México. Tel: 01(61) 74-45-60 ext. 116, FAX, est. 105 E.mail. a@bahia.ens.uabc.mx From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:01:40 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1449 Message-ID: <001101bd4638$9015c2a0$03e78ccc@nwc.net> Mar 2 Dear Ernie & Rogelle: Thanks for yours of 1st and attachment of which I made a copy and will now check with my records and see if I can send you anything. Have you sent it to John at Pasadena T S ? I'm sure he will help if possible. I agree with you that following all the chat on theos-talk can be time consuming if read closely. Many items are inconsequential. I can determine this in the first few lines and then skim through, so as to spend as little time on those as possible. Learned that much earlier in the mail-order business (books and magazines) that I had in India. The material you refer to was sent some time ago -- about a year or more, and yes, I sent it to you for safe-keeping -- in a way -- as I thought it useful to the theosophical movement and to students who might be saved some time in their own future research. From the list you sent you have most of what I have done, with the possible exception of more recent additions. Jerry Ekins has created a 'safe-keeping' library on theosophical materials in Turlok north California. He has, I am told, an extensive library. Have you been in contact with him, or do you know of him ? Do you recall the date on which that material was sent ? Month/ Year ? theos-I is a daily list of people chatting back and forth and a lot of it in inconsequential, with possible exceptions here and there of something valuable. I would hat the responsibility of assembling it daily -- but I do look at to see if there is something useful coming up. My difficulty is that I am interested in serious study and research. I think of the future. The past is only valuable to set people's notions right, when they can be confronted with facts. I would far rather concern myself with seeing the Theosophy is kept moving forward. It has so great value. I recently posted a memo to David Green on this subject in considering the value of such letters are supposed to have been channeled just after Judge's death, as messages from him, through Tingley. [ I will put that in as an attachment to you. ] I am truly aware of the conference you propose. I have thought about the subject, and really I have not found any subject which has not already been covered somewhere. The question is bringing up more evidence and making it up to date. Sylvia Cranston did that work rather well in HPB biography. LOOKOUT (a monthly dept. of THEOSOPHY) tries to cover this also. In Bombay THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT has a similar dept. named IN THE LIGHT OF THEOSOPHY -- it does a supplementary job. I suppose that some of those comments could be strung together. But, mentally I have not latched on to a specific area. ideas ? Thanks for all and good wishes to you-all Dallas & Val From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 12:32:55 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Robert Crosbie Biography - Part 2 of 2 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980301123255.0071d394@mail.eden.com> Continued from Part 1 of 2 1897-1900 In reviewing this period, Mr. Crosbie wrote:-- "I was in Boston and had no reason to doubt the statements of those in N.Y. whom I believed to be sincere and of good training and judgment. I should have known by other means the true state of affairs...when Judge passed out of life, I lost touch with him; doubtless I relied on him too much, and had not exercised my own intuition; from later events my comprehension is, that this loss of touch was purposely done in order that I might strengthen my weakness in that direction. I went to Point Loma at Mrs. T's urgent request to assist in the proposed work, and was there two years, helping to prepare the way for the expected developments, before I began to get back the touch I had lost. I am prone to excuse inconsistencies and deviations in others, so that although I had begun to doubt, and to see, it was more than a year afterwards I saw so clearly and unmistakably that I took occasion to tell Mrs. T. the facts as I saw them, and to state my intention to withdraw from all connection with her. She tried of course in every way to change my determination, but finding me unchangeable, she let me go, and as I afterwards heard, gave out that she had sent me away for 'bad conduct'--just what I do not know." (AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL NOTE by R.C.) 1900 Mr. Crosbie married his second wife: Josephine Parsons, on April 10th 1900, in Manchester, N.H. They had two children: a daughter named Kathleen, (Kay, Kittie) and a son: Cameron. These two went to High School in Long Beach, Ca. They had neighbors who also came to U.L.T. and were students of Theosophy and who remember them well. (R. McOwen, R. Law) 1900 - MOVE TO POINT LOMA Mr. Crosbie was summoned by Mrs. Tingley to take up residence in Point Loma outside of San Diego, California, where a Headquarters had been located for the TS IN A, now renamed UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. Mr. Crosbie noted that he had been active in Theosophical matters in Boston for some 14 years.[THY 7 293] He went there with Mrs. Crosbie, and as was required then, all his assets were turned over to the organization when he became a resident there. He gave his support to Mrs. Tingley, as can be noted from several articles and letters of his written during those years. [THEOS. MOVEMENT ('75-'50),p. 317-19 THY 65 159-60] Considering the close relationship that existed between Mr. Crosbie and Mr. Judge, and the special position that Mr. Crosbie occupies in the Theosophical Movement of modern times, one wonders whether Mr. Crosbie might not be considered a "shepherd" who was following his straying "flock." And when that "flock" dispersed, the "shepherd" went in search of a new one. 1904 - LEFT POINT LOMA Conflicting reports were circulated as to why Mr. and Mrs. Crosbie left the Point Loma establishment. None of the family assets which he turned over at the time of entry were returned to him. He and Mrs. Crosbie left and were penniless. [ There have been hints ( Lischner Pamphlet ) of financial irregularities at Point Loma. Mr. and Mrs. Crosbie were not the only ones to leave at that time. Point Loma was going through a crisis around the time of Mrs. Tingley's death. They were heavily taxed without warning by the government on their extensive lands. They were "land rich and cash poor" at the time.] [THEOS. MOVEMENT ('75-50); THY 317-19; THY 23 492; THY 7 291] Mr. Crosbie is reported to have said: -- "We quietly left Point Loma." And that closed the subject. (The Register of Members kept in Point Loma shows a smudged remark in red ink against his name: "EXPELLED 1904.") 1906 Mr. & Mrs. Crosbie found a house to rent in South Pasadena. He secured a job as a bookkeeper in Los Angles with the Los Angeles Times. This work was arduous and required long hours standing, and was not well paid. Like many others he rode the "Red Cars" (street-cars) to work. 1906 Mr. Crosbie became acquainted with his neighbors in South Pasadena: the Garrigues, the Cloughs, the Laws, and the Churches. He found that they were interested in theosophical ideas, and with their joint interest they first instituted a study class in Theosophy using Mr. Judge's The Ocean of Theosophy and Mme. Blavatsky's The Key to Theosophy as the first texts studied along with the BHAGAVAD GITA, the Theosophy of 5,000 years ago.. "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second Section of the theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. Judge in 1896, and in 1907--just eleven years later--made that link once more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third Section was restored by the formation of the United Lodge of Theosophists. In 1912 he founded the magazine THEOSOPHY..." [THY 7-289 THY 3-187/8; THE ULT ITS MISSION & FUTURE, p.8.] 1906 Organized Theosophical meetings were first held by Mr. Crosbie under a charter obtained from the TS IN A that Hargrove had reformed, after splitting away from the Point Loma TS, in New York 1898/99. This had attracted a number of Mr. Judge's earlier close companions including Dr. A. Keightly and his wife, Julia, better known as "Jasper Niemand." [THY 23-544-5] 1907 A year later this Society in New York decided to change their appellation back to : "The THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY." Since this was considered injudicious, some in the L.A. Branch rejected the change. 1907 Mr. Crosbie and 7 others decided to organize on their own, adopting the original principles and the original program of the Masters which HPB and Mr. Judge had embodied practically during their life- time. These PRINCIPLES are to be found in the DECLARATION OF THE UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS [THY 23-544-47] Nov. 17th 1908 Mr. Crosbie issued an announcement:-- "TO ALL OPEN-MINDED THEOSOPHISTS" [THY 24 341; FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER, 409] February 18th 1909 U.L.T. was launched. The DECLARATION is its only basis. An initial explanatory statement will be found in : [THY 23-337 and FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER, p. 412-14] "No formal bond existed among the Associates of the ULT, the sole object being the study and dissemination of Theosophy pure and simple." [THY 23-102 & THY 23-548-9] There were 7 original associates. [THY 23 102 F.P. 412-4] 1909 The "Third Section" was said to be restored by the formation of the U.L.T. THY 7 289; ULT ITS MISSION & FUTURE, p. 8 "All sincere Theosophists deplore the evils in the Movement and long for their eradication. They "dimly perceive" that these evils have an originating and sustaining cause which must be counteracted, but so long as their attention is fixed on effects, how can they , except with "divided mind," study the producing cause or causes ?...They cannot learn the truth about nature and themselves in any other school than that provided in Theosophy and in the lessons to be learned from self-study and the study of theosophical history. The Theosophists of today are ... faced with the same inherent difficulties, the same problems, the same weaknesses...but the real lack then is the real lack now--the disposition to face the facts, to make the necessary effort to gain first-hand knowledge of Theosophy as a basis and standard of discrimination and judgment--and then the will to act upon those finely established principles thus self-perceived...From the beginning, but a handful recognized the gravity of the issues involved, and that is still the case. ... work--the will to study, apply, and so come to understand the play of forces in human nature--is the practical application of the 3rd. Object." [THY 23-102/3] The "semi-esoteric character of the U.L.T." was a phrase that Mr. Crosbie used. He also said that the ULT had to do work, which the various TSes, then in existence, had all failed in. It had to work to restore the integrity of the Original Impulse, as laid down by Masters through HPB." [THY Nov. 1951 THY 50 338] Crosbie stressed impersonality and anonymity to protect the work and to help protect the workers from "pride," and "ambition."It was recorded that in his work Mr. Crosbie was "undeviating." [THY 52 252] As regards himself and family, Mr. Crosbie was always well dressed in public, at work and at the Lodge rooms, so that Theosophy might not be rated on a poor personal appearance. He made a point of this to all those who worked at ULT. 1909 The children of Mr. & Mrs. Crosbie later on: 1. their daughter, Kathleen (Kay), married a Mr. Deeds (they had two children: Scott and Keith). 2. Their son's name was Cameron. After Mr. Crosbie's death, Mrs. Crosbie and the two children moved to Long Beach. Mrs. Crosbie eventually went to live in Corona, where she was "house mother" at a girl's boarding school. She was not heard of after 1935. Cameron Crosbie became a professional organist. During the depression he moved to New York and kept up some desultory contact with Mr. Garrigues, while he was there, at the New York ULT. He eventually stopped coming and was no longer heard from. Mrs. Josephine Crosbie was always well regarded by those who knew her. She and Mr. Crosbie were neighborly, and as said earlier, they made friends with Mr. and Mrs. Garrigues, Mr. and Mrs. Clough, Mr. and Mrs. Law, and Mr. and Mrs. Church. Later still, Mr. and Mrs. Bentley ( Mrs. Bentley was for almost 35 years the superintendent of Theosophy School ); Mr. and Mrs. Wyman; Mr. and Mrs. Brinton Jones; Dr. and Mrs. Frederick F. Strong; Mr. and Mrs. Frederick Manske; Miss W. Egan, and many others. 1910 Letters "In The Beginning" (The Friendly Philosopher) were written by Mr. Crosbie to early students at various ULTs. Some of these lived and worked out of the San Francisco and other area. These few letters concerned themselves with the principles on which the ULT was. Impersonality and a direct approach to the actual teachings of HPB and WQJ was stressed again and again. [ Friendly Philosopher pp.376-7, 382-3] November 1912 THEOSOPHY magazine was founded, Mr. Crosbie serving as chief editor until his death in 1919. [THY 7-291] "In 1912, the mid-point of the 2nd quarter of the Movement, the magazine THEOSOPHY was founded to provide a medium for dealing with theosophical philosophy and history, free from sectarian affiliations or influences. Slowly the effort spread despite all obstacles and opposition, the impregnable basis of impersonal devotion keeping the work unsullied, an impersonality strictly continued after the death of Mr. Crosbie in 1919." [THY 23-102 & THY 23-548] 1914 THEOSOPHY magazine, in its second volume started to publish a series of articles on Theosophical History under the title: MASTERS AND THEIR MESSAGE. This historical review of the events and the documents of the modern THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT forms the basis for the book later issued under the title: THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT: 1875-1925, edited by Mr. Crosbie. 1914 THEOSOPHY SCHOOL was started. This activity was adopted and implemented by most ULTs as they became established. 1916 "BECAUSE -- FOR CHILDREN WHO ASK WHY" edited by Mr. Crosbie, was issued. Two new Theosophy Schools started around new ULTs in San Francisco and Berkeley. 1917 - 1918 Mr. Crosbie set most of the Theosophy School songs to music himself. "(Mr. Crosbie's) ... burdens during many years have been enormous. In addition to his other work, he was a frequent speaker at the meetings of the United Lodge; he was constantly at the service of the hundreds of students who sought his wise and benign counsels in their many problems; he attended personally, under no matter what pressures upon his time and energies, to an incessant stream of correspondence from unknown inquirers who came in some unknown ways to learn of him and to seek his kindly advice and suggestion. He never denied his help, but gave freely, without stint or limit." "Worn out in these unselfish labors for the benefit and advantage of his fellow men, burdened with the toll of advancing years, the frail body could no more sustain the increasing demands upon it. He died as he had lived, calm and serene, with no word of complaint during the days of intense suffering that preceded his release. Something of his firm principles and the impersonality of his life and work can be gained from his last published article, printed in the (July 1919 THEOSOPHY :-- "Is Theosophy a Progressive System of Religion ?"). [THY 7-289-90] June 25th 1919 Death of Mr. Crosbie [THY 7 320] It is valuable to note that H.P.B.'s last article was "My Books" published in April 1891. It is a resume of evidence showing that her writings were the recorded teachings of the Masters of Wisdom. In April 1896 Mr. Judge's last article appeared: "H.P.B. Was Not Deserted by Masters"--his statement of the reliability of the Messenger. Mr. Crosbie's last article: "Is Theosophy a Progressive System of Religion ?" (July 1919) reiterates the position that Theosophy is not a constantly changing set of ideas, but a consistent and complete body of knowledge to be studied, applied and promulgated as originally presented. [ Mr. Fussell of Point Loma TS wrote some letters containing some slanderous statements against Mr. Crosbie's character, after his death. Mr. Garrigues showed these letters to Mrs. Crosbie. She indignantly repudiated the statements that Mr. Fussell made. She stated that they were false and untrue. She also challenged Mr. Fussell to prove them. He made no response to this. (THY 23 390 THY 23 491-2)] ___________________________ In the August 20th 1919 issue of the O.E.LIBRARY CRITIC, published by Dr. Stokes from Washington D.C. wrote:-- "One cannot help comparing the exaltation of personalities and the self-advertising which is so much in evidence in the official journals of the T.S. with the policy of the magazine THEOSOPHY, in which all the material, editorial or otherwise, which is written by still living persons, is anonymous. For nearly seven years this journal has published admirable original articles and editorials and not once have the names of the writers appeared. The excellent letters written by the United Lodge of Theosophists to inquirers are never signed, except by the name of the Lodge. It now appears for the first time that Robert Crosbie, who recently died, was not only the chief editor of THEOSOPHY, but the author of many of the best articles and letters issued by the Lodge. From the first issue of the journal up to the last issue, announcing his death, not once does the name of Robert Crosbie, or even his initials, appear. Nowhere are we recommended to get his photograph and meditate upon it; nowhere are we regaled with accounts of his movements; nobody tells us how miserable they are because Robert Crosbie has gone to Boston and not telegraphed back from each station; not one line is given to expatiating on his greatness. And herein we see the true theosophical spirit exemplified, the desire to serve without reward other than the privilege of rendering the service...To the work of teaching real Theosophy, Robert Crosbie not only devoted his life, but sacrificed it, seeking neither reputation, honor nor glory, yes, more, deliberately turning his back on them. "To be seen of men," that is a form of personal ambition, "the first curse,--the great tempter of the man who is rising above his fellows." "Kill out ambition," that is the first precept laid down in LIGHT ON THE PATH...." [Dr. H.N.Stokes, O.E.L.C.] (Aug. 1919, OELC) == = = = = = = = = = = == Again, In the March 1933 issue of the O.E.LIBRARY CRITIC, Dr. Stokes writes: "Aside from the Great Lights of Theosophy, few theosophical writers appeal to me more than Robert Crosbie, founder of the United Lodge of Theosophists, and I rejoice in the occasional quotations from his talks which appear in the U.L.T. magazines. Further, it is always a joy to note when any of his devoted followers of the United Lodge, here, there or anywhere, live up to the spirit of his dictum (Theosophy, Feb. 1920, page 107): "Neither Jesus nor H.P.B. lived and died in order that a book or books might be swallowed wholesale, nor even that men should become disciples, but that all men should become brothers." To this one might add that Robert Crosbie did not live in order that books or pamphlets lauding--and misrepresenting--him should be "swallowed wholesale," but that truth should prevail... ===================== The magazine Theosophy, which was edited by Robert Crosbie up to the time of his death last July [1919], has just begun publishing a series of his articles, letters and talks. Many are extremely lucid and illuminating, and no theosophical student should miss them, no matter to what society he belongs." [Dr. H.N.Stokes, OELC (Nov. 1919, OELC)] ++ = = = = = = = = = = =++ Following the principles of the ULT DECLARATION neither Mr. Crosbie, nor any student of the ULT has ever made any special claim as "successor," "leader," or "teacher." Each student and inquirer has been carefully put into direct touch with H P B, our teacher through her writings--original and unchanged. Each has been encouraged to study, work for Theosophy and practice that universal brotherhood which forms the unifying basis of all Nature. Mr. Judge's writings have been selected for study and reproduction because they most faithfully and carefully follow and supplement Mme. Blavatsky's writings and all students are encouraged to prove this for themselves. B I B L I O G R A P H Y Robert Crosbie THE FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER -- Letters and talks by R. Crosbie ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- Unedited selections from questions asked and answers given by Robert Crosbie in study classes in the Ocean of Theosophy by Wm. Q. Judge THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT : 1875 - 1925 -- edited by R.C. BECAUSE -- FOR CHILDREN WHO ASK WHY -- short stories illustrating practical Theosophy for children. -- edited by R.C. THEIR COLLEAGUE PASSES -- an appreciation of his work in and for ULT and THEOSOPHY magazine [THY 7-289] THE GUIDANCE OF ROBERT CROSBIE -- THY 26-337 LOYALTY: [ OF ROBERT CROSBIE ] -- THY 19-337 THE RECORD OF ROBERT CROSBIE -- THY 25-337 THEOSOPHISTS AND ROBERT CROSBIE -- THY 24-337 ROBERT CROSBIE -- THY 21-337 HE KEPT THE LINES UNBROKEN --THEOS. MVT. 16- 99 FOUNDER OF THE ULT --THEOS. MVT. 4-113 THE U.L.T. AND ITS FOUNDER --THEOS. MVT. 14-113 ==================================== === end of Part 2 of 2 ==== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 00:57:23 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: P R Sarkar /Ananda Marga Message-ID: <34FA4A42.222B6004@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > One of the outstanding records of *all* Theosophical organizations is that > there may have been differences of philosophy/approach, *none* of them have > ever been involved in any legal troubles, especially criminal ones, in > *any* country. Notable exceptions: 1) Theosophical Society and Anthroposophical Society in Nazi Germany. 2) Elizabeth Clare Prophet's group (which claims to be a Theosophical organization) in the United States. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:03:09 +1000 From: Dieter Dambiec Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1448 Message-ID: <01BD4636.893B8700.d.dambiec@student.canberra.edu> On Monday, March 02, 1998 4:29 AM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] wrote: > Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 09:37:40 -0600 > From: M K Ramadoss > > One of the outstanding records of *all* Theosophical organizations is that > there may have been differences of philosophy/approach, *none* of them have > ever been involved in any legal troubles, especially criminal ones, in > *any* country. > > Coming with this background, one is troubled about any organization which > gets tangled with governments of multiple countries. > Aurobindo, a great yogi, was accussed of various activities in the fight for Indian independence. He was fighting for Indian independence well before Ghandi. Krsna, in the Mahabharata also used the tactic of 'covering over the sun' to win the battle. In another sense greatness is revealed in the fight against aggressors. This is common throughout various 'scripture'. See the Ramayana, the great epic. It describes that Shrii Rama with all his might waged a war against Ravana, who abducted his wife. Shrii Rama's action was in no way against the principle of Ahimsa (non-violence), because he invaded Lanka not with a desire to conquer a territory or to cause any harm. See the Mahabharata. Mahapurusa Shrii Krsna had insisted upon the Pandavas to take up arms against the Kaorvas, because the Kaoravas were aggressors (Atatayii) who had taken possession of the land by force. None would accuse the very incarnation of love, Shriiman Mahaprabhu, one of the great revolutionists in social and spiritual world, of adopting ways associated with Himsa (violent intent); but he too had pounced like a lion on the tyrant Kazi (Judge). If Himsa and use of force were synonymous, Maha-Prabhu, the incarnation of mercy, certainly would not have done so. It is cardinal moral principles that count at all stages. The law should reflect those cardinal moral principles. Of course, wild civil disobediance is not in society's best interest. THE CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE MOVEMENT When a rogue elephant becomes violent it does not feel hungry, and consequently it may not eat or even drink for many days together. In such an abnormal condition, it's over heated brain compels it to break all rules and regulations....and it even challenges the laws of nature themselves. You know, those who instigate others to break rules will always cause bad consequences. Let us take an example. A prominent leader of India's struggle for independence started a civil disobedience movement against the British to attain the political independence of India. Some people suggest that the aim of this movement was not to break any rules or disobey the law. The aim was to express the truth after dispelling the cimmerian darkness. The aim was to snatch independence from the clutches of the forces of darkness. It was an effort to find the truth.... it was satyagraha. However, it makes no difference what name you call a rose flower, it is still a rose. Even if you send an ordinary rice crushing mill to heaven, it's function is still the same. If people have disregard for the law, there is every possibility that they will follow the path of law-breaking. This very psychology causes people to challenges legal statutes, and the result is never good. Today if people follow in the footsteps of the past, they will be led to burn buses and trams which they themselves have purchased... they will be led to burn governmental and nongovernmental buildings, destroying their own hard earned wealth. When people adopt these methods today, it is because the psychology of the civil disobedience movement of the British time is still working -- in other words satyagraha. However, rational people would not describe such methods as satyagraha but as duragraha -- a hand-tool to destroy the society. Those who hold the communist banner and attack helpless people in the name of revolution, losing sight of human values under the impetus of their confused, irrational philosophy, are goaded by the same type of psychology. Nature dislikes disobedience or the act of breaking the law. As long as legal statutes exist, they must be obeyed. If they are found to be harmful or stand in the way of the progress of society, or if they hold back the forward march of humanity like a serpent entwined around the legs of a person, these statutes should be ground into the dust and new laws should be enacted and obeyed. Otherwise, the law of big fish eating little fish will dominate society, and this will harm the interests of both the individual and the collective. The civil disobedience movement has left behind a chaotic imprint on society. PR Sarkar 11 September 1988, Calcutta Shabda Cayanika, Part 8UfBody From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 03:52:08 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Newspaper offering Website Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980301035208.00b4c554@mail.eden.com> Here is an excerpt from Houston Chronicle. Non profit groups have an excellent opportunity to use what the newspaper has to offer. mkr ======================================= Note from the Editor: If you're a nonprofit organization looking for a way to get your message out on the Internet, HoustonChronicle.com has a new project that might be of interest of you. This year, we are establishing a Community Self-Publishing site on our Web site that is to be used by schools, churches, sports leagues, and other nonprofits to help them create a presence on the Web. With this site, nonprofits will be able to publish, either for public or private use, their calendars, events and membership information, plus much more. They also will be able to establish discussion groups. This project is a simple way for nonprofit-group members to communicate with themselves and with the public. No extensive computer knowledge is needed -- all that is required is an internet connection and a web browser. If you and your nonprofit group is interested in taking part in this exciting new project, please contact Gwen Lewis, Communications Coordinator for HoustonChronicle.com. She can be reached by email at gwen.lewis@chron.com or by phone at 713-220-6266. We hope you'll take part! Thanks for visiting, and take care. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 03:53:55 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Conference broadcast on Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980301035355.00b50178@mail.eden.com> Here is what is happening to access to conference proceedings on Internet. mkr ======================================= *Computers, Freedom and Privacy If you couldn't make it to the Eighth Annual Conference on Computers, Freedom and Privacy in Austin, Texas, last month, HoustonChronicle.com offers the next best thing to being there. Listen to much of the conference on RealAudio. And you don't even have to book a flight or a hotel room. http://www.HoustonChronicle.com/cfp98 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 03:56:45 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Newspaper offering free community notices via e-mail Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980301035645.00b50178@mail.eden.com> How to Send Community Notices to HoustonChronicle.com If you or your organization has a public service announcement or news about volunteer positions that you need filled, please send them via email to holly.hildebrand@chron.com (HCI reserves the right to edit any such notices.) To post a community notice in the Community bulletin board of HCI Talk, head for http://www.chron.com/HyperNews/get/forums/community.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:18:02 +1000 From: Dieter Dambiec Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1447 Message-ID: <01BD4570.D3912380.d.dambiec@student.canberra.edu> On Sunday, March 01, 1998 4:56 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] wrote: > > I am curious about P R Sarkar. Is he the one who launched the Ananda Marga, > which ran into legal problems in India as well as in several countries? > > mkr Yes, but all 'legal problems' ended up to be no problems. These are just little quirks in the spiritual life. Krsna was after all born in prison. In history all great spiritualists have had to face these things. Its nothing new. I post below his discourse on how the mission started. Discourse 150 SPIRITUAL TRUTH SURPASSES EVERYTHING The tiny organisation which first saw the light of day in a small town in 1955 - you may call it the 'Jamalpur Organisation' because in those early days it was confined to Jamalpur town - has today, due to your efforts, been transformed into a mighty global organisation. Each and every entity grows step by step due to its own inherent strength, not by acquiring strength from any external source. If internal strength is lacking, it serves no purpose to inject additional strength from outside. The day we started our journey we only had a fixed goal ahead of us, nothing else. In those days we had neither structure nor financial capacity, nor even a small office room. Yet our organisation continued to grow and has become so large today that there is hardly any country left where its branches and ramifications have not spread. The A'nanda Ma'rga of today is no longer the small Jamalpur Organisation of those early days : the people of Jamalpur have had to surrender it to the population of the world. During the twelve years since 1966, I have not been to Jamalpur. In those early days, people used to talk about the 'Head of A'nanda Ma'rg of Jamalpur', but these days they no longer use such words. Every entity develops by virtue of its own internal strength. But where does that internal strength come from? The strength acquired from the external world is fundamentally crude. Food, air and water are created from the five fundamental factors which, being crude, can only directly help the growth of physical energy and not the more subtle psychic energy and spiritual energy. One should not be overdependent upon that physical source of energy as it is transient by nature. From the very beginning it was my opinion that it would not be wise to depend on external objects alone. This is the advice I have given to members of A'nanda Ma'rga, saying that they should rather depend upon psychic energy. Psychic energy is of two types. One is a product of physical energy, the other a product of spiritual power. Suppose some people stop eating food for a number of days : their physical and psychic stamina will be affected. They will be unable to continue their studies and other activities due to a lack of physical stamina. Their minds, infatuated with food, will repeat 'bread, bread' instead of 'Krs'n'a, Krs'n'a'. Thus, crude psychic power which is a product of physical energy is also undependable. The second type is internal psychic power. Those who are moralists, those who are armed with spiritual power, naturally develop a kind of psychic power. Whether they eat or not, their strength remains unaffected. Staunch moralists would never agree to drink alcohol even if they were about to die. Their moral strength is so strong that they would rather put their heads in fire than violate their ideology. The energy that originates from crude food is not adequate for the development of this sort of indomitable psychic power - It requires spiritual strength, spiritual moral force which originate, from unit consciousness or a'tman. In the absence of spiritual power, this unflinching psychic power and moral force quickly fade. That is why from the very beginning I have been stressing that human beings should depend more on spiritual power. A'nanda Ma'rga firmly believes that human life should be based on this inherent moral spiritual force. Those who possess such crude physical force tried their utmost to eliminate us. Their days are gone. The crude mental force which is a product of physical energy is expressed as vanity or ego. There is nothing more foolish. You must have observed that when one strikes at vanity it shatters into pieces. Thus, I advise you to depend upon the inherent psychic force under all circumstances. I do not say that you should depend only on the inherent psychic force because that psychic force itself depends on spiritual force. This is what intelligent people should do. That is why we have followed this path from the very beginning. The small nucleus of an organisation which we first started at Jamalpur has extended its circumference far beyond the small frontiers of that small town, and has now spread all over the world. It has spread to each and every neighbourhood and is still spreading. Today, you should remember that A'nanda Ma'rga is not limited to a handful of honest and intellectual people. Rather, it is trying to rally thousands of people under the banner of one sublime ideology. I dedicate A'nanda Ma'rga in this DMC [ Dharma Maha Cakra: a spiritual gathering during which the Guru delivers, several discourses ] to all sections of society. Prior to this DMC, I would only discuss intellectual topics, but from this DMC onwards I have become a man of the people because I believe that dharma is the property of the masses, not the exclusive monopoly of a handful of so-called educated middle class elite. Dharma belongs to one and all. From this DMC, I recognise it as the property of the common people. Patna, 3 January '79 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 09:17:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Expanding Internet Access Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980301091732.00b46018@mail.eden.com> > LOGGING IN FROM THE AIRPORT Public Internet access facilities -- referred to as "Internet kiosks," "Cyberbooths" or "NetStations" -- are bringing relatively inexpensive Internet access, e-mail, news, stock quotes and Web browsing out of the office and into public spaces, especially airports. Most providers of Internet access in airports refer to their services as "communication booths" or "kiosks of the future," offering a combination of high-speed Internet access and a browser-style interface. -->Internet business center .... http://cnnfn.com/fntraveler/9802/27/travel/ >Excerpt from CNN News From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 09:37:40 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: P R Sarkar /Ananda Marga Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980301093740.00cae678@mail.eden.com> Thanks for your response. Based on my long personal experience, I have found that any time any organization gets involved in legal troubles (especially criminal ones) with governments in multiple countries, I try to keep away from them. While the troubles of Ananda Marga may have taken place several years ago, one should not just ignore it by treating as quirks of in the spiritual life. One of the outstanding records of *all* Theosophical organizations is that there may have been differences of philosophy/approach, *none* of them have ever been involved in any legal troubles, especially criminal ones, in *any* country. Such impeccable record over nearly 125 years time is something to be proud of and speaks for the strong foundation on which Theosophy has flourished in every part of the world. Coming with this background, one is troubled about any organization which gets tangled with governments of multiple countries. Another aspect which one has to keep in view is that I have personally seen very many organizations trying to recruit from Theosophical circles. While there is nothing wrong about exercising this freedom, I personally would deal with other organizations with a great amount of circumspection. My 0.002 mkr ================================ At 08:22 AM 3/1/98 -0500, Dieter Dambiec wrote: >On Sunday, March 01, 1998 4:56 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] >wrote: >> >> I am curious about P R Sarkar. Is he the one who launched the Ananda Marga, >> which ran into legal problems in India as well as in several countries? >> >> mkr > >Yes, but all 'legal problems' ended up to be no problems. These are just >little quirks in the spiritual life. Krsna was after all born in prison. In >history all great spiritualists have had to face these things. Its nothing >new. > >I post below his discourse on how the mission started. >>>>>>>>>> clip <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 12:20:49 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Robert Crosbie Biography - Part 1 of 2 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980301122049.00696d98@mail.eden.com> Many of the theosophists do not know much of the contributions of many pioneers who contributed a lot to the spread of Theosophy. One such is Robert Crosbie. Recently I came across a biography which was very informative and eye opening for me. I am posting it in 2 parts. Hope some will find it interesting. mkr ===================== R O B E R T C R O S B I E -- Compiled by Wane Kell The Friendly Philosopher 1849-1919 BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES Mr. Crosbie is to be known through his writings:-- THE FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER -- 415 pp. (Letters & Lectures) ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS on the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY NOTES ON THE BHAGAVAD GITA, (Chapters: 8 to 18) Editor of THEOSOPHY MAGAZINE:- 1912 - 1919 Editor: THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT: 1875-1925 (History) Editor: BECAUSE -- FOR CHILDREN WHO ASK WHY. =================================================== January 10th 1849 Born:- Montreal, Canada Both parents were Scottish, they met and married in Canada. His father was connected for many years with the Hudson Bay Co. as a supervisor, traveling from Post to Post for a good part of the year. His mother was a companion to Lady Simpson, wife of the Governor of the Hudson Bay Company. A "highlander," she had, but rarely used, her capacity for "second-sight." She lived a life of self-sacrifice, compassion, and service to others. 1865 RC was raised a Presbyterian, RC was invited to join the communion at 16; RC said he considered himself still "unfit." The subsequent discussions caused him to doubt the honesty of that church's practices. He determined to find "the Truth, which must be knowledge," and which was to be found in due course by seeking it. Then he adopted an attitude of constant questioning as to life's object, pain, sickness, death, mercy, justice, fate. He found that the religions around him offered no satisfactory answers when he questioned them deeply.. 1869 RC, and a partner started a leather and shoe manufacturing business in Montreal. Soon after that he married the daughter of his partner. His partner's wife died, and then he became interested in spiritualism. Crosbie, investigating that, found nothing attractive in its facts or philosophy. RC observed some fraud. In some cases, hypnotism seems to have been involved. He then studied hypnotism, mesmerism, clairvoyance and telepathy with some success. The "psychic powers latent in man" were found to exist and seen by him, but their rationale was still to be understood. He sensed there was danger in those, and also sensed that he was receiving "some guidance" which he later said, helped him avoid "unconscious black magic practices." Crosbie always had a strong regard for the rights of others, and, aware of this, always exercised moral control over himself. "...from his earliest years deeply interested in religious, philosophical and occult subjects..." THY. Vol 7 p. 320 A favorable opportunity to sell their business in Montreal arose. The partners, after the sale, went to Boston, and there started another shoe and leather manufacturing business. It was highly respected. 1886-8 One day, RC's partner brought him news of the proposed establishment of a branch of the Theosophical Society in Boston. As the word: Theo-Sophia suggested much to him, Crosbie went to the first meeting. He recognized at once that this was what he was searching for, and he joined the T S immediately. (Admitted: June 5th, 1888) Soon after, Mr. W. Q. Judge came to Boston to speak at the T S, and Crosbie was introduced to him together with other new members. After the meeting, leaving for his hotel, Judge called back to Crosbie: "Good night Crosbie, I've got you on my list !" Mr. Crosbie recorded: "a veil was lifted...a tie was formed which has never since been broken." Mr. Judge came frequently to Boston and stayed at the Crosbie house. When Crosbie visited New York he would stay with him. [ See: THY. Vol. 24, 337; THY 64, 229 ] 1888 Of this first meeting with Mr. Judge, Crosbie wrote (following the death of Mr. Judge) :-- "A FRIEND OF OLD TIME AND OF THE FUTURE" "The first Theosophical treatise that I read was his Epitome of Theosophy; my first meeting with him changed the whole current of my life. I trusted him then as I trust him now and all those whom he trusted...trust is the bond that binds, that makes the strength of the Movement, for it is of the heart. And this trust he called forth was not allowed to remain a blind trust, for as time went on, as the energy, steadfastness and devotion of the student became more marked, the "real W.Q.J." was more and more revealed, until that power radiated through him became in each an ever present help in the work. As such, it remains to-day, a living power in each heart that trusted him, a focus for the Rays of the coming "great messenger." "Having been engaged in active T.S. work in Boston for over seven years, it has been my Karma to be brought in touch with him under many different circumstances, the various crises, local and general, through which the Society has safely passed... The future will reveal much in regard to him that is now hidden, will show the real scope of his life- work... The lines have been laid down for us by H.P.B., W.Q.J., and Masters, and we can take again our watchword, that which he gave us at the passing of H.P.B., 'Work, watch and wait.' We will not have long to wait." -- R. Crosbie THY 7-292 Crosbie, in retrospect observed that in those early years, students had few materials for the actual study of Theosophy. There were only HPB's ISIS UNVEILED, articles in the issues of THE THEOSOPHIST and THE PATH, ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, and the OCCULT WORLD written by Mr. Sinnett. Later HPB wrote THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, THE SECRET DOCTRINE and THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE. Judge in publishing the magazine The Path, provided students with a great many practical hints on Theosophy. These not only covered his observations, but illustrated aspects of doctrine and metaphysics which students were interested in. October 1888 When the E.S. was formed, Mr. Crosbie became one of its earliest members. He was first Secretary and later President of the E S Group in Boston under a charter issued to him by HPB through Mr. Judge, her agent in America. [THY 24 337, THY 23 100] "(He)...identified himself with the DZYAN section of the Theosophical Movement and the T S., and was for many years the devoted and close Companion of William Q. Judge, and an occult pupil of H.P. Blavatsky...He...loved these two great Beings, trusted Them and those whom They trusted..." [THY 7 320; THY 7 290] Mr. Judge, in his lifetime, used to refer students in the New England States to Mr.Crosbie, saying:- "Ask Crosbie, he thinks and acts as I do." [THY 24-337] 1889 Crosbie was elected Secretary of the Boston Branch TS, nominated by C.F.Willard. Mr. Griggs was President. June 1891 After HPB's death Mr. Judge put Crosbie in charge of the EST Groups in the 7 New England States. This was done under a charter issued by HPB to Robert Crosbie. December 1891 Crosbie was present in New York at a meeting with Mrs. A. Besant, Mr. Judge, and other Theosophists at Astor House. During that meeting, Mrs. Besant narrated the events that took place at the General Council Meeting of the I.G. of the E.S. in London on May 27th 1891. This meeting followed H P B's death. Mr. Judge was present as "HPB's representative, with full power." In the meeting at New York, Annie Besant stated that at that time, a "note" on which the Master had written:-- "Judge's plan is right," fell out of the packet of letters she had tied, and which had been in her sole possession, until she had brought it, herself, to that meeting. This related to the plan of having two Co-"Outer-Heads" for the E S. She was to supervise E S Gpoups in England and Europe in the East, Mr. Judge to supervise America and groups in the West, and both were to work in close consultation, cooperation and harmony with each-other. Mr. Crosbie made a written record of this meeting, along with others who were also present. Later, during the furor of the "Judge Case," she repudiated this statement. THEOS. MOVEMENT, 1875-1925, p. 646, 296-7, 649-50. It may also be noted that Mrs. Besant had separately written on this subject to Jasper Neimand (Mrs. Julia Keightley) and therein she had made the statement that the note from the Master had "fallen out of the bundle she had earlier tied together, and locked in her desk. [ See Judge bio-notes ] 1892 His first marriage did not go at all well. One of the daughters was sickly from birth and needed constant nursing, for this special help several servants to assist Mrs. Crosbie were hired successively. When RC became interested in Theosophy around 1888, the situation at the home with Mrs. Crosbie worsened and a legal separation was agreed on around 1892. A suit for permanent divorce followed, and this became final some years later. At this time, Mr. Crosbie sold his business and turned the proceeds as well as their house over to his wife. Later, a fire in the home that he left to his wife is reported and this may have killed his first wife and their children after the divorce. He then started a new business on his own. 1892 Mr. Crosbie was appointed President of the Boston E.S. In addition he was also the President of the Boston T S branch. April 1892 He helped organize the 5th Convention of the American Section of the T.S. held in Boston April 24/25th 1892. April 1895 In 1895 he helped organize the 8th Convention of the American Section of the T. S. in Boston, (April 28/29th, 1895 ). It was during this convention that the American Section passed resolutions that transformed it into the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN AMERICA, giving it autonomy. [On p. 24 of the Report for the Convention, we find Mr. Judge stating in an article the basis for fraternal affiliation which unites all Theosophical working bodies and Theosophists together: -- "The Unity of the Theosophical Movement does not depend upon the singleness of organizations, but upon the similarity of work and aspiration; and in this we will 'KEEP THE LINK UNBROKEN !'" (These were HPB's last words.)] Along with Mr. L.F.Wade, and Mr. Ayers, Mr. Crosbie submitted to the Convention an "Historical Sketch of the T.S." This traced the major events of its existence and work in America since 1875. And, this was included in the Proceedings and Report issued by the Convention. Later a pamphlet embodying this information was issued under the title: WHAT IS THE THEOSOPHICAL ORGANIZATION ? 1894 -- 1896 During this period Mr. Judge was attacked, exonerated, and, later persecuted again by the chief officers of the T. S. outside of America. Those were Col. H.S. Olcott the President Founder, and Mrs. Annie Besant. Neither appeared to understood that Mr. Judge (and Mr. Crosbie in Boston) stood primarily for Theosophy (as HPB did). To them, the T S was viewed as a useful tool, to be sustained as a promulgating body. To Judge and Crosbie, and others in America and England, the T S was to be directed on the basis of the principles which Theosophy laid down and no others. No individuals' "authority" was recognized by them. Each member's free-will and free-determination was his own responsibility and no one else could wield authority over him or her. Theosophy alone was held to be the sole reason for the T S. and the Officers in its management ought to present that basis at all times. 1894 - 96 Mr. Crosbie supported Mr. Judge's principles fully. He acted as one of the "witnesses on the scene." He, kept the "link" of pure Theosophy "unbroken," after Mr. Judge's death. The hints given by W.Q.J. during his life in regard to Crosbie were not grasped by those around him, who had what they fancied to be their own positions. And, in addition, seemed to be glamoured and deluded by the psychic powers Mrs. Tingley (who had only been a member for only a year prior to Mr. Judge's death) exhibited. In New York, Mr. Neresheimer, who was Mr. Judge's executor and Mr. Hargrove went through Judge's papers. They found what was later described as an incomplete diary of Mr. Judges', but which he claimed (in 1896) to be an "occult" diary; and in this, he said he detected Mr. Judge's indication that Mrs. Tingley was to "succeed" him. Mr. Neresheimer had introduced Mrs. Tingley to W. Q. J. about a year before his death. She became a member of the T S and later, a member of the E S. She was a psychic and apparently did not have a very profound knowledge of Theosophical philosophy. She had however been of help to Mr. Judge during the last year of his life which was spent in great discomfort and illness. However this gave her no special "position" in regard to the management of the T.S. or the E.S. Many years later (1923), Mr. Neresheimer made a deposition outlining these events, and in that he reversed some of his earlier pronouncements, on which the "succession" of Mrs. Tingley had been based. From time to time this "occult diary" has been mentioned as giving "authority" for the "Tingley succession," however, when requests were made to see it, or have it published, for all to verify, this was never done. Copies were made of it and are available from several sources, but it is difficult to establish any coherence in those phrases and notes. (see also: THY 3, p. 280) March 1896 Mr. Judge died March 21st l896. Mr. Crosbie was in Boston. Of the events in New York, he wrote:-- "Two or three of the New York members--notably E.T.Hargrove and E.A.Neresheimer--obtained possession of Mr. Judge's keys and went through his private papers; in these [ they said ] they found reference to a certain "chela," whom Neresheimer determined to be Mrs. Tingley whom he had known for about a year, and whom he had brought to Judge's notice. The idea being in their minds that there must of necessity be an occult successor, and concurring in the opinion that Mrs. T. was indicated, they sent out a circular to the E. S. that Judge had appointed her as such. The minds of all, being in the receptive condition I have mentioned, accepted everything as stated by the few in New York. The attitude assumed by Mrs. T. soon began to estrange those members who were brought in close touch with her in New York, but those at a distance had no inkling of the true state of affairs and kept on in full confidence. Those who found that they had made a mistake in the first place in foisting Mrs. T. upon the organization were in too doubtful a position to attempt explanations; one of them only -- Mr. Neresheimer--(who had introduced her to Judge)--remaining her supporter...his support was sufficient to offset any withdrawal of the others in New York." "Mrs. T. took advantage of the situation, and most plausibly and shrewdly strengthened her position for two years after her advent, then formed the "UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD" with herself as absolute dictator; carrying with her by far the greater number of the members throughout the country. A year later she went to Point Loma and established the institution there." 1896 "As to my part in it--I was in Boston, and saw no reason to doubt the statements of those in N.Y. whom I believed to be sincere and of good training and judgment..." (Autobiographical Note by R.C.) In the May 1896 issue of THEOSOPHY (formerly--The Path) will be found an articles signed by Mr. Crosbie: -- " A FRIEND OF OLD TIME AND OF THE FUTURE " reprinted:THY 7 292 (Already quoted above) 19 close friends of Mr. Judge wrote articles about him that were published in the May, June and July issues of THEOSOPHY. The death of Mr. Judge brought choices to Mr. Crosbie. Some of those are hinted at in articles to be found printed in: [THY 24 339-40, THY 64 229] One of these related to impersonality, on which he offered his thoughts. see Friendly. Philosopher, pp. 127-8 April 1896 and later Mr. Crosbie, in Boston was in cordial relations with Mrs. Tingley who had been placed, shortly after Mr. Judge's death, into the position of "Outer Head" of the E S Section of the T S in A. He retained his supervision of its affairs over the area comprising the New England states. == continued in Part 2 of 2