From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:25:17 -0500 From: jim meier Subject: Moon Chart 1998 (2) Message-ID: <199801311625_MC2-3164-9B66@compuserve.com> -------------Forwarded Message----------------- In my previous posting here, I forgot the display conversion that CompuServe does with hard returns; -- here's a 2nd attempt. If the "screen squeeze" doesn't work, read between the lines (so to speak). RE: Moon Chart 1998 Moon Chart 1998 "In all meditation it is of value for the student to remember that, from the standpoint of permanent benefit, it is easier to meditate effectively during the period from the new moon to the full moon, than from the full moon to the new moon. The first half of the lunar cycle is one of intensification, absorption and accretion; the second half is one of assimilation and distribution. More real progress over a long period can be made by observing this cyclic law. Wisely utilizing newly acquired energies keeps inflowing and outflowing channels open and prevents emotional, mental and psychical congestions which may otherwise be experienced, with their accompanying physical consequences. Table of new and full moons for the twelve months of 1998 (United States Standard Time) 1998 day moon Eastern Greenwich MT day ___________________________________________________________________________ Jan 12 Full Cap 12:25 pm 5:25 pm 12 Jan 28 New Aqu 1:02 am 6:02 am 28 Feb 11 Full Aqu 5:24 am 10:24 am 11 Feb 26# New Pisc 12:27 pm 5:27 pm 26 Mar 12 Full Pisc 11:35 pm 4:35 am 13 Ma 27 New Ari 10:15 pm 3:15 am 28 Apr 11 Full Ari 5:24 pm 10:24 pm 11 Apr 26 New Tau 6:42 am 11:42 am 26 Mar 11 Full Tau 9:30 am 2:30 pm 11 Mar 25 New Gem 2:33 pm 7:33 pm 25 Jun 9 Full Gem 11:19 pm 4:19 am 10 Jun 23 New Can 10:51 pm 3:51 am 24 Jul 9 Full Can 11:02 am 4:02 pm 9 Jul 23 New Leo 8:45 am 1:45 pm 23 Aug 7 Full Leo 9:11 pm 2:11 am 8 Aug 21# New Leo 9:04 pm 2:04 am 22 Sept 6 Full Vir 6:22 am 11:22 am 6 Sept 20 New Vir 12:03 pm 5:03 pm 20 Oct 5 Full Lib 3:13 pm 8:13 pm 5 Oct 20 New Lib 5:10 am 10:10 am 20 Nov 4 Full Sco 12:19 am 5:19 am 4 Nov 18 New Sco 11:28 pm 4:28 am 19 Dec 3 Full Sag 10:20 am 3:20 pm 3 Dec 18 New Sag 5:43 pm 10:43 pm 18 NOTE: Where and when Daylight Savings Time is in use, add one hour to the above times. (#) denotes eclipses of the sun at the new moon and of the moon at the full moon. The full moons of the three Spiritual Festivals occur on the following days: EASTER on April 11th; WESAK on May 10th and WORLD INVOCATION DAY (or Christ's Festival) on June 9th." souce: Lucis Publications From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:38:12 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Functioning on All Levels Message-ID: <$lB+gQAUf600EwNQ@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <0d1b54717151f18UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.co m>, KeithHouston writes >I long for the days when people could watch sunsets, meditate, discuss and >live a very difficult agrigultural existence that was infused with the >spirituality of everyday life. I cannot escape fast food and cable TV and >the IRS, except in moments of retreat within. Am I complaining too much? Nope. There are still places with sunsets and agriculture to watch (like where I live) and it is great. But we also have a MacDonalds (discreetly hidden near an out of town supermarket) and cars. Mind you, at this particular spot it is still possible to go the the end of the lane and listen to see if any are about .... mostly late evening or at night! We can't get cable TV, and have to pay taxes, though :-) Every now and then we lose electricity and/or phone lines, which are still carried on overhead cables from wooden poles .... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 21:33:40 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980131213340.01090134@mail.eden.com> At 06:58 PM 1/31/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In message <3.0.3.32.19980131101309.00712114@mail.eden.com>, >M K Ramadoss writes >>In my previous post on the Internet, I forgot to mention Theosophy >>International - the "organization" with no bureaucracy and no money and the >>sole medium it uses is Internet. My salute to Alan who launched it and >>again shows the individual interest and effort. > >Thanks, but I didn't do it alone - there was a great deal of co-operation >and e-mail discussion via theos-l before it got off the ground - maybe >that should be cyberground? > >Alan :-) >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > But you are the driving force behind its formation and continued expansion. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 21:57:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Impact/Power of Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980131215759.0078cba8@mail.eden.com> Thank you, John for your detailed response. It was only a question of days before Clinton affair would have come out on TV and print media. We will have to see how the issue plays out in the days to come. I looked at Internet as a tool of communication. I was trying to point out levelling of the field between those with money and power (pseudo-spiritual, political, governmental) and the little guy/gal with no power and very little money. Money and Power can and does gets used to delay or distort or withhold information. Corporations and organizations with varied vested interests are susceptible to influence direct and indirect when the sensitive and explosive information is to be delivered. But the honest little guy/gal can stand up and deliver raw material without abridgement or distortion. It is in the human nature that we do not want unsavory information about us to come out. It is the same with organizations. Especially with (spiritual) organizations they tend to keep the members in the dark on the theory that they do not need to know. But all this is going to change due to the global and instantaneous nature of Internet. In addition, it is a tool of direct communication with the masses. It is my hope that in the next decade we are going to see Internet impacting everyday life in ways no one can even predict or forecast. Just as a preview, today my business is dependent on Internet for uptodate information. This was not the case last year or years before. This trend is likely to affect most of us in days to come, if it has not already done so. mkr =================== At 01:32 PM 1/31/1998 -0500, John O. Catron wrote: >Thank you, Mr. Ramadoss for your posting regarding the Internet and its >importance/effect in today's world. > >I was unaware that the Clinton affair was started on the internet. >My major concern is the time, energy, and costs involved from >"allegations" and the press frenzy surrounding those allegations. My >GAWD, watching TV interviews with government officials reminded me of >vultures on a downed animal in the desert. > >I have a great concern about the potential for allegations to >precipitate such distraction of government officials that they could >inadvertantly put the nation in a compromising situation with other >countries. >Would the "press" accept the responsibility for the compromised >situation because such distraction? What about the image of our >officials created in the minds of officials of other nations. Would a >reporter be willing to accept the karma for the reduced confidence in >the officials he/she created through his/her persuit of only >"allegations"? > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 21:35:58 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Functioning on All Levels Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980131213558.0078c7b0@mail.eden.com> At 06:50 PM 1/31/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Every now and then we lose electricity and/or phone lines, which are >still carried on overhead cables from wooden poles .... > >Alan :-) In the 7th largest city in the US where I live, we stillhave electricity and phonelines still carried on overhead cables in many parts of the city. So you are not behind times!!! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:10:25 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World July '98 Conference - Edmonton TS Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980201191025.00dcc5b8@mail.eden.com> I am forwarding this from theos-talk. .......mkr ============== >From: epelleti@netcom.ca >Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:10:22 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Theos-World July '98 Conference - Edmonton TS > >A CALL FOR PAPERS > >on > >THE WORKS AND INFLUENCE OF H.P. BLAVATSKY > >"A Forum For Presentations and Open Dialogue" > >Edmonton T.S. will be hosting a conference July 3 - 5, 1998 for the presentation of previously unpublished papers focussing on what H.P. Blavatsky presented and/or her influence on 20th century thought. Guidelines for papers are posted below. Please advise the Conference Committee as early as possible of your intentions to participate. The deadline for submissions is March 31, 1998. > >Everyone is welcome to attend. Please feel free to mention this conference to others whom you feel may be interested. > > >GUIDELINES > >For Papers On > >The Works and Influence of H.P. Blavatsky > > >When: July 3 - 4 - 5, 1998 > >Where: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > >Content: Papers [original/previously unpublished] are to focus on what H.P. Blavatsky presented and/or her influence on 20th century thought, including but not limited to the fields of science, literature, art, music, religion, philosophy, health, psychology, education, sociology, etc. > > Please submit papers in English. > >It is preferred that references to HPB’s major works be kept to original or facsimile editions. > >Authors are encouraged to review their presentations for ambiguity and redundancy, and avoid personal remarks that do not pertain to the subject. > >Please include a short [one paragraph] biography with your paper. > >Format: Typed and double-spaced, with 1" (2.5 cm) margins, on 8½" x 11" (21.5 x 28 cm) or A4 plain, white paper. > > Papers may be > > 1.) mailed to: Edmonton Theosophical Society > Box 4587 > Edmonton, Alberta > Canada T6E 5G4 > > 2.) sent by e-mail (as an attachment only) to: fohat@planet.eon.net > or: epelleti@netcom.ca > > 3.) sent on 3 ½" diskette, mailed to the above mentioned address - in WordPerfect 6.1 or Microsoft Word 6.0 [or older version] for Windows 3.1 > > All diagrams must be in black and white [i.e., ink or computer generated] > >Presentation: Regardless of the length of the paper, presentations will be limited to twenty (20) minutes, followed by twenty (20) minutes of open dialogue. > > Audio/video equipment requirements must be submitted with your paper. > > If the author is unable to attend, he/she may designate a presenter. If the paper is more than 10 pages (double-spaced) in length a summary must be included that can be read in a 20 minute time-frame. If a reader is not designated, one will be assigned by the Conference Committee. > >Deadlines: Please advise as early as possible of your intentions to participate. > > The deadline for submissions is March 31, 1998. > >Papers submitted for consideration will be presented to the Conference Committee for approval. > > Notification of acceptance: May 1, 1998 > >Proviso: Edmonton T.S. reserves the right to publish any or all papers submitted. > >Venue: The conference will be held at the Holiday Inn - The Palace where facilities have been booked and a block of rooms reserved at reasonable rates for those attending and their families. The hotel is conveniently located a short distance from Edmonton International Airport, and also provides a shuttle service for guests. > > Information packages detailing accommodation and facilities will be sent to all interested parties. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 11:11:23 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The February THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The February issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "The Gnostic Nature of the Theosophical Founders" by Richard Taylor "Mindsets," Part II, by Liesel F. Deutsch "Am I My Brother's Keeper?" by William Q Judge "Woman of Darkness" by A Student "Updates and New Additions to 'Theosophical History' Webpage" by John Patrick Deveney "Blavatsky Net Update" by Reed Carson "Differing Translations of the 'Guide for Bodhisattvas'" by Nicholas Weeks "Clothed in the Seven Principles" by Eldon Tucker "Commemorating G. de Purucker's Birthday" by Frank Reitemeyer "Website With Russian Texts" "Seeing Auras" by Paul Johnson "A New Phase of Life" by Murray Stentiford "Karma" by Boris de Zirkoff "The Highest Triad" by Eldon Tucker THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:10:25 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World July '98 Conference - Edmonton TS Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980201191025.00dcc5b8@mail.eden.com> I am forwarding this from theos-talk. .......mkr ============== >From: epelleti@netcom.ca >Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:10:22 -0500 (EST) >Subject: Theos-World July '98 Conference - Edmonton TS > >A CALL FOR PAPERS > >on > >THE WORKS AND INFLUENCE OF H.P. BLAVATSKY > >"A Forum For Presentations and Open Dialogue" > >Edmonton T.S. will be hosting a conference July 3 - 5, 1998 for the presentation of previously unpublished papers focussing on what H.P. Blavatsky presented and/or her influence on 20th century thought. Guidelines for papers are posted below. Please advise the Conference Committee as early as possible of your intentions to participate. The deadline for submissions is March 31, 1998. > >Everyone is welcome to attend. Please feel free to mention this conference to others whom you feel may be interested. > > >GUIDELINES > >For Papers On > >The Works and Influence of H.P. Blavatsky > > >When: July 3 - 4 - 5, 1998 > >Where: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > >Content: Papers [original/previously unpublished] are to focus on what H.P. Blavatsky presented and/or her influence on 20th century thought, including but not limited to the fields of science, literature, art, music, religion, philosophy, health, psychology, education, sociology, etc. > > Please submit papers in English. > >It is preferred that references to HPB’s major works be kept to original or facsimile editions. > >Authors are encouraged to review their presentations for ambiguity and redundancy, and avoid personal remarks that do not pertain to the subject. > >Please include a short [one paragraph] biography with your paper. > >Format: Typed and double-spaced, with 1" (2.5 cm) margins, on 8½" x 11" (21.5 x 28 cm) or A4 plain, white paper. > > Papers may be > > 1.) mailed to: Edmonton Theosophical Society > Box 4587 > Edmonton, Alberta > Canada T6E 5G4 > > 2.) sent by e-mail (as an attachment only) to: fohat@planet.eon.net > or: epelleti@netcom.ca > > 3.) sent on 3 ½" diskette, mailed to the above mentioned address - in WordPerfect 6.1 or Microsoft Word 6.0 [or older version] for Windows 3.1 > > All diagrams must be in black and white [i.e., ink or computer generated] > >Presentation: Regardless of the length of the paper, presentations will be limited to twenty (20) minutes, followed by twenty (20) minutes of open dialogue. > > Audio/video equipment requirements must be submitted with your paper. > > If the author is unable to attend, he/she may designate a presenter. If the paper is more than 10 pages (double-spaced) in length a summary must be included that can be read in a 20 minute time-frame. If a reader is not designated, one will be assigned by the Conference Committee. > >Deadlines: Please advise as early as possible of your intentions to participate. > > The deadline for submissions is March 31, 1998. > >Papers submitted for consideration will be presented to the Conference Committee for approval. > > Notification of acceptance: May 1, 1998 > >Proviso: Edmonton T.S. reserves the right to publish any or all papers submitted. > >Venue: The conference will be held at the Holiday Inn - The Palace where facilities have been booked and a block of rooms reserved at reasonable rates for those attending and their families. The hotel is conveniently located a short distance from Edmonton International Airport, and also provides a shuttle service for guests. > > Information packages detailing accommodation and facilities will be sent to all interested parties. > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 11:11:12 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The February THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The February issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "The Gnostic Nature of the Theosophical Founders" by Richard Taylor "Mindsets," Part II, by Liesel F. Deutsch "Am I My Brother's Keeper?" by William Q Judge "Woman of Darkness" by A Student "Updates and New Additions to 'Theosophical History' Webpage" by John Patrick Deveney "Blavatsky Net Update" by Reed Carson "Differing Translations of the 'Guide for Bodhisattvas'" by Nicholas Weeks "Clothed in the Seven Principles" by Eldon Tucker "Commemorating G. de Purucker's Birthday" by Frank Reitemeyer "Website With Russian Texts" "Seeing Auras" by Paul Johnson "A New Phase of Life" by Murray Stentiford "Karma" by Boris de Zirkoff "The Highest Triad" by Eldon Tucker THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 09:51:37 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980203095137.00c9f260@mail.eden.com> Hi, Here is a good writeup on Internet. It will, hopefully open up the eyes of those blind to what is happening in the Internet world, also hopefully make anyone who is adopting osterich attitude to lift their head and see for themselves what is going on. Can Theosophy use Internet? Surely yes. Need creative ideas. All feedback is welcome. mkr ============================================== Clinton Scandal -- Coffin Nail for Traditional Media? Jesse Berst, Editorial Director ZDNet AnchorDesk Back in 1980, a scrappy cable-televsion news show called CNN was launched. At the time, its ambition -- to beat network TV news -- seemed impossibly presumptuous. Naive. Laughable. After all, the networks had spent decades perfecting their formulas. They had it all locked up. The talent. The credibility. The resources. Or so they thought. What they didn’t realize was how locked in they were. To airing news only at certain times. To squeezing it into limited time periods. To playing it safe. CNN faithfully exploited those limitations, year after year. But it took a national crisis -- the bombing of Libya in 1984 -- to showcase CNN’s round-the-clock advantage. To boost its credibility. And to get viewers hooked. Overnight, cable subscriptions skyrocketed -- driven by people who wanted access to CNN. If you want to know the future of the Web news biz, just look at CNN’s past. Web news is following the same path. Only faster. The Clinton sex scandal supplies all the evidence. It was a story made in Web media heaven: Too complex for a 90-second TV report. Too fast-breaking for print newspapers. And too titillating for the public to ignore. People flocked to the Internet in record numbers. At Fox News Online, the Clinton scandal generated more traffic than the death of Princess Diana. At AP Online, the scandal outran the Super Bowl 3-to-1. At CNN Interactive, it contributed to a tenfold hike in traffic in one day. And the Washington Post’s Web site was hit so hard, it had to add extra servers. That is not to say the online news was always accurate. Plenty of people argue the coverage was reckless, at best. But everyone agrees that the Web drove the media frenzy. Because Web news organizations exploited their five advantages: 1.Speed. News delivered when it happens -- not when the paper is printed. And it doesn’t have to be videotaped, edited and aired -- just posted to a server. 2.Space. Can’t squeeze in details? No problem, just link to another page. 3.Cost. No costly newsprint. No delivery trucks or newsstands. No TV studios to operate. No satellites to rent. 4.Interactivity. Newsgroups, chat rooms and other discussion forums offer an instant soap box. And an audience. 5.Open all night. It is never too late to break a story on the Internet. The Libya bombing offered CNN its big break, but it wasn’t until the Persian Gulf War seven years later that the company hit big time. And so it will be for Web news. Before it can become world-class, Web news must overcome deficiencies: Visuals. Television will win this one, hands-down, until streaming technology improves. And bandwidth problems are solved. Access. Online access must pass critical mass, something I predict for the end of next year. Credibility. The Internet has to shed its reputation as a digital rumor mill. How often did you check the Web for new details on the Clinton scandal? Which sites did the best job? Do you have more or less confidence today in the Web news media than a month ago? Scroll to the bottom of this page and send me a TalkBack message. I’ll post some of the best responses beneath this column. Then jump over to Jesse’s Berst Alerts forum for instant interaction with other AnchorDesk readers. Eighteen years ago, CNN was nothing. Today, it is arguably the most powerful news organization in the world. Gee, the only thing the Web is missing now is a megalomaniacal, charismatic champion in the vein of CNN's Ted Turner. Hmmmmm, who could that be? I invite you to send in your nominations now. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:36:01 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: The rebuilding of the temple Message-ID: <091d92942050528UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> FYI: Cornerstone for the Third Temple was laid in Jerusalem on 20th October In an historical event a cornerstone for the Third Temple was brought to the gates of the Temple Mount and the City of King David in Jerusalem by the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement and their followers on 20th October. The cornerstone was brought during the holy Feast of Tabernacles, the same Feast at which King Solomon first brought the Ark of the Covenant to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in an exciting ceremony. (1 Kings 8) Many preparations were made for this unusual event. The feeling was that we were going to make one of the biggest events in the life of Israel and all mankind. The rebuilding of the Temple, the House of G-d, in Jerusalem has a very deep significance for the prophetic present and future life of Israel. Every part of the life of Israel will be affected by this and a new era will be opened in the life of Israel and all mankind. Israel is now living in the time of the prophetic redemption and fulfillment of all G-d's end-time promises. The rebuilding of the Temple was the biggest desire of this nation over the last 2000 years since the destruction of the Second Temple in the year 70 C.E. This is also the biggest desire of Israel today. This will be a key event which will solve all the problems of Israel and will bring to the life of this nation real peace. This will bring back Israel to dwell in all the parts and boundaries of the promise land which G-d promised to this nation in an eternal covenant to Abraham and his seed. The main goal of the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement is to bring ...... Keith: Hmm! "ISRAEL" mean the one(s) that "struggle" with G-d (as they say. Doesn't that include all of us?? Apologies to Pam for my iritablity again, but don't the times just get on YOUR last nerve. I mean Boris Yeltsin is threatening World War III if we touch a hair of the head of that saint Saddam Hussein. But en-lightening-up, many traditions say that as long as their are are few spiritual people among the masses the world will be saved for all those souls flowing from G-d knows where into incarnation. But will they all fit into the temple are will we have to go mass media. Is the WWW a temple as in Vau_Vau_Vau : 666.? Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 16:41:16 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: American C0-Masonry Website Message-ID: <34DA400C.BD5@eden.com> American Co-Masonry, which admits women on equal footing with men, and is not under any foreign control, has set up a website at: http://www.co-masonry.org Anyone interested may want to visit it. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 00:56:46 -0500 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Magical Alphabets! Message-ID: <34D9549E.5CB@dmv.com> Check out my new page at this URL: http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ancient.htm (the page take a long time to load because of large image files. 500K total) Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 22:16:54 +1000 From: tosaki Subject: Re: Mondrian Message-ID: <34D9ADB8.38A@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au> Hi Thoa, It took long time to reply you. Here now in summer holidays everything is getting slow. Thoa wrote: > Hi Eiichi, > > Eiichi: > >For Hegel, philosophy and religion are identical: The content is the same, > >the form is different. He said that Philosophy "accomplishes" Christianity. > >Rationalists' arguments are not necessarily based on the > >"known things", nor just looking at materialistic side of the things. > > Philosophy and religion are identical in terms of Hegel's description of > Plato's suprasensible world and Christianity's constant world of the > beyond, a true and consistent world of laws. However, according to Hegel, > that is not so. I read this part 20 times but still do not understand. "However, according to Hegel, that is not so.": where actually he mentioned this thread? I have not found the lines in Hegel's works so far. My original comment above is based on the citation written by Jefferey Grace in a review of the book titled, "The Problem of God in Hegel" written by Georges Van Reit, "Philosophy Today", Spring & Summer 1967. I do not argue philosophical contents with speculations or impression, especially when mentioning the name of philosophers. Please attach the resources on which your arguments are based. I also will keep in mind this rule. >This true world of laws is not tranquil, but constantly > changing, because everything contains change. I agree. However, as far as so-called 'law' is concerned, if the law is implicitly changeable, it does not valorize the name. >The Christian world of a God apart from humanity creates conflict. This belief >causes people to separate themselves from reality and prevents solutions to problems. Who said this? Hegel? Maybe not. He never said that, for example: "This unity of humanity with itself, with God, and with nature is, in the universal sense or as in-itself, in fact the substantial, essential determination. Humanity is reason, is spirit; in virtue of the capacity of reason, of the fact that humanity is spirit, it is implicitly what is true." ("Hegel Lecture on the Philosophy of Religion: the Lectures of 1827", one-volume edition, ed. Peter C. Hodgson, University of California Press, 1988, p. 213) > This is different from Hegel's perception of the dynamic and interacting > "inverted" world. > You mean in Hegel's thought there is contradiction between his understanding of God and humanity, and his perception of the dynamic and interacting "inverted" world? Or you mean Hegel's understanding of God and Christianity in the state of affairs represented by churches? If so, you mistook the term 'Christianity' in the context. I am arguing within the context of Hegel, not generalized meaning of Christianity. > >For Mondrian as well religious and philosophy are the same thing (so > >does in theosophy, I think). > > Mondrian did make an interesting mix of dialectism and Theosophy in his > essays, although he is using apples and oranges to make his argument. > Mondrian's objective of changing society through his utopian art is > dialectic. His constant using of relationships, of a utopian environment > making a new man, is dialectic. His idea of equilibrium through placement > of opposing forces is similar to Hegel's using the opposition of forces and > electricity to make his points. I agree that Mondrian's argument in 'philosophy' of art is dialectic, especially in the context of my former comment about this. Your phrase "Hegel's using the opposition of forces and electricity to make his points" is very interesting where did you find this? >However, the substance of Hegel's > dialectism and Theosophy are dissimilar and ultimately cannot go together. > In Theosophy's world of Truth, the Real can be arrived at by stripping away > all that is inessential. Hence, Consciousness can exist in itself, A=A. > In the law of dialectics, this is meaningless because separation will only > cause alienation and because everything has to contain change. Thus, > reality and suprareality changes according to the laws of dialectic and > "everything has a constant difference from everything else.". For > dialectics to exist, there has to be separatedness. In Theosophy, this > separatedness is only illusory, it is not the Real, the All. > Interestingly, for Mondrian, dialectism is a mean of stripping away the > inessentials, of exposing A. > In what context are you using the term 'dialectic'? In Plato's, Kant's, Hegel's, or Marx's? If Hegelian's dialectic is in your mind, his is different from what you described above. Danial Berthold-Bond wrote in his book "Hegel's Grand Synthesis": "Dialectic is both a method of demonstration and on ontological principle for Hegel. As method, it is meant to show the necessity of development, or transition, from one stage of consciousness or of history, or from one abstract category of logic, to a higher stage or category." (Danial Berthold-Bond, "Hegel's Grand Synthesis: A Study of Being, Thought, and History", State University of New York Press, 1989, p.81) > >We are now living in a no-truth world. > >Truth cannot be authenticized now (such a naive era was gone, when > >thinkers struggled to proof the truth). > > It may be a "no-truth" phenomenal world of maya, but in Theosophy's > noumenal world, "(t)he 'Parent Space' is the eternal, ever present cause of > all-the incomprehensible DEITY, whose 'invisible robes' are the mystic root > of all matter, and of the Universe. Space is the one eternal thing that we > can most easily imagine, immovable in its abstraction and uninfluenced by > either the presence or absence in it of an objective Universe." (The > Secret Doctrine I, p. 35, Stanza I) > > Compare that to Hegel's philosophy of opposites. Mondrian cannot be a > Theosophist and a Hegelian at the same time. He may apply Hegelian > philosophy in the phenomenal world, but the root of Theosophy and the root > of Hegel's philosophy cannot go together. > "Hegel's philosophy of opposites" is not simple "opposites." Berthold-Bond says "The understanding employs dialectic to rigidly exclude the meditation of opposite. In this sense, dialectic sets up an "equilibrium" of opposite determinations, so that every opposing determination has equal value." (Ibid, p. 87) "The dialectical structure of thought reflects the dialectical structure of the world that Hegel argues that thought and being, consciousness and object, subject and substance, do not contradict each other but mutually illuminate each other." (Ibid, p. 91) In this sense Mondrian inherited one of his most important hocus-pocus "equilibrium" from Hegel through two Dutch Hegelian philosophers: M. H. J. Schoenmaekers and G.J.P.J. Bolland. As far as 'dialectic' is concerned, in Mondrian Hegel and Theosophy go together. > >Mondrian also seek for the 'reality' and the 'truth', but not just in a > >naive way. He just can't. Because he was a practical painter and a very > >serious one. For him every important theoria should be realized on > >canvas, where there is no transcendental arguments - every entity of > >elements of composition is exposed in front of you. My argument about > >Mondrian's rationalist side is to show the limitation of the Hegelian's > >logical thoughts, which Mondrian (and Adorno) inherited. > > Yes, since our divisive selves can only discern the phenomenal world, we > need to deal with it in a practical way. Mondrian may have inherited > Hegelian thought in relation to the practical world, but he must have > seen its limitation, too, since he is a theosophist. Throughout his essay > in "Natural Reality and Abstract Reality: An Essay in Trialogue Form > 1919-1920," (Publisher George Braziller, Inc., ISBN 0-8076-1372-X) he made > many remarks regarding the need to not focus on the material and the > practical. In scene 6, he stated that the practical process of creating > ultimately weakens the contact with the universal. Your phrase "he made many remarks regarding the need to not focus on the material and the practical" is true, but my use of the term "practical" is different from what you comprehend. I said Mondrian was a 'practical' painter, which means he was a painter in a practical sense, whose thinking or understanding of art should be realized on the canvases. I do not think Mondrian mentioned the phrase "the practical process of creating ultimately weakens the contact with the universal." Where did you find it? Please locate in the book "The New Art - The New Life", which you recently purchased. >To eliminate that, he thought that the exactness of machine-made materials to diminish individualism's effect, might be the answer. > He actually mentioned 'machine' in "Natural Reality and Abstract Reality: An Essay in Trialogue Form 1919-1920" in scene 6. But I am not sure whether that might be answer or not. In many places he uses 'machine' as metaphor of ideal entity of exactness or modern self but he himself never used industrial machine like material (except New York period, when he used colored tapes). That why each edge of rectangle or band is slightly wobbling. He normally used just conventional brushes while painting, in a "rough work" or before settling the design of canvas he is reported to have used some tapes or ruler though. I think in this sense the following sentence in scene 6 can be understandable: "He uses the machine, so far as possible, to perform the rough work so that he can concentrate his self on the inward." > >Hegelian's logical thinking is just an occurrence in the 'head.' This > >side was seviourly criticized by the other philosophers championed by > >Kierkegaard. Kierkegaard said that in Hegeliam logic there is no room > >for argument of "movement": it's just a "mirage." > > Kierkegaard strongly champions subjective truth, as opposed to Hegel's > dependence on relationships. I tend to agree with Kierkegaard in that one > should know what is best for oneself. On the other hand, I believe in > responsibility to others, and try to solve problems based on my thinking of > others. It's a fine line between loving oneself and loving others, > selfishness and being used/controlled. In an ideal world, loving others > does not result in being controlled or used. However, in this world, I > find that is not so. For example, in performing social services, people > tend to use you as a personal chauffeur without consideration for your > feelings and time. When you give them money, they will keep on asking as > if you're a money bag and will not enquire as to your welfare when they do > not need money. In personal relationships, acquiescence leads to no > consideration for your time, dreams, or convictions. Maybe what is best > for oneself is knowing the boundaries. > Your observation is interesting but here your argument is a little distracted from mine. > >'Rhythm' is a strange thing: It's half thought, half experience. Earlier > >stage of Neo-plasticism (1917-1927) Mondrian took the theory of 'rhythm' > >based on Hegelian's dichotomy - 'subjectivity' vs. 'objectivity', on > >which also many theosophical philosophers based in the beginning of this > >century, especially such a scholar as Schoenmaekers, by whom Mondrian > >got obviously influenced. > > > >In Mondrian Hegelian logicalism and Theosophist mysticism are > >interestingly mixed up. I think he sensed the limitation of the Hegelian > >logicalism (Mondrian thought rhythm is the property of the subject and > >the substratum of composition, and in the process of attaining the > >objective (or the universal) functions as an agent to attain > >equilibrated point, which was, in the earlier stage, 'stasis'. > > In mystical thinking, each is part of a whole and yet is the whole. In > order to see the whole, we need to look at the part in its relationship to > the whole, see that the part is also the whole, and that there is no > differentiation. Ultimately, there is no such thing as separation. With > that in mind, we can understand Mondrian's idea of multiplicity. In Scene > 2, p.36, Mondrian made the difference between materialistic rhythm and > inner rhythm. I cannot find any 'rhythm' mentioned in Scene 2. In Scene 3 he mentioned 'rhythm' a lot though (maybe you made a mistake to locate it). There Mondrian allocates rhythm for the function of destruction: destruction of "capriciousness of individual things" - this function makes natural condition have some sense of rhythm; "destruction of the absoluteness of this primary relationship" and "naturalistic rhythm"- inward rhythm and the rhythm of the New Plastic. In this early stage of Neo-plasticism Mondrian's theory of rhythm does not have concrete sense or materialistic sense. So Mondrian's rhythm at this stage is not easy to discriminate between materialistic and inner rhythm. >In a Hegelian sense, rhythm is formed through relationships > of separate things to each other. Also, rhythm unifies them, that is, > destroy their individuality and "capriciousness". That is true in > naturalistic painting. In the New Plastic, the multiplicity of the > "primordial relationship" creates an inward rhythm, and this destroys > natural rhythm. This makes sense in that "rhythm, no matter how inward, is > always present, and is even varied by the diversity of dimensions through > which the primordial relationship, that of position, is expressed." To me, > that is yogic rhythm, the rhythm of stillness, the rhythm that passes > through the various laya centers, the various dimensions. This > "equilibrated duality" creates stillness. This stillness is the inner > rhythm. This is "movement as purely equilibrated relationship expressing > repose."(p.100) > This part is pretty interesting we should discuss this line more. > >In Hegel 'absoluteness' and the 'universal' is the same thing and which > >is brought by 'judgement.' Within this 'judgement-universal' sphere > >rhythm is the epistemological evidence and not empirical one. > > What do you mean by 'judgment'? Hegel's 'absoluteness' refers to the > perfect, total, and practical concept of the world. The perfect merging of > theory with practice. To him, this is an unattainable ideal. Hegel's > concept of the "universal" is unlike the theosophical concept of the > universal, which cannot be affected by theory or practice. > "Judgement" occurs within individual (which shares the etymological meaning with judgement) or subject. Objectivity can be attained by 'judgement" or putting in another way, unless "judgement" is performed by subject, there is no objectivity. In Hegel (and Mondrian as well) the status of 'pure' objectivity is the same as that of universality. In this sense I mean that even the attainment of universality in Hegelian sense is possible inescapably within epistemological sense of subject or individual. Here I do not talk about quality of "universality", but about the state of it. Therefore in Hegelian's sense the realization of rhythm is irrelevant of the actual realization on canvas. That is why Mondrian had to quit Hegelian's castle of universality to focus on actual realization of rhythm in later period of Neo-plasticism. > >Then Mondrian gradually elevated the status of rhythm as a role within > >the subjective, from the substratum of composition to the same level as > >composition, which organizes the elements of painting, such as lines, > >colour planes. > > As he became more aware of the role of rhythm in his thinking, he began to > employ it more consciously in his painting, probably walking the fine line > between naturalistic rhythm and plastic rhythm. He also said that the > practical distracts from the universal. > The same question: where does he mention "the practical distracts from the universal." And in what sense of "practical"? > >Here my interest in Hinduism (and Theosophy), which you evoked me a > >lot, is that the theory of rhythm in Hinduism, I conjecture, is not > >limited to the epistemological evidence, but applicable to the empirical > >field. In order to attest this point, all you have to do is to listen > >Hindu music. A great deal of Hindu music is very rhythmic and exactly > >based on the theory called Raga. > > > >If Mondrian knew Yogic theory of rhythm like Bailey put it, it will be a > >very interesting story. The scenario is like this: Mondrian quit the > >theory of rhythm based on Hegelian logicalism, and in the process of his > >deepening Theosophical-Hindu thoughts accompanied by his experience as a > >practical painter, he constituted the theory in much empirical way, > >which is still based on some logic; this time Hinduism. I hope this > >scenario will work in a positive way. How do you think? > > It's a possibility. It could also be that he merged rational thought and > mystical thought from the very beginning. Think of it this way. No matter > what we do, we have to acknowledge the material and use it to connect with > the universal, even if it's by meditation or chanting. To me, Mondrian > used the concept of relationship between material means (color, lines, > tones), expressed via Hegelian concepts, in order to reach the ultimate > goal of inner rhythm that connects to the universal. > I agree. > >Definitely your English is better than mine, but you also should watch > >out: too much vocabulary and rhetoric might kill the clarity of the > >argument. Your throwing stone cannot kill two birds at the same time - a > >clumsy English speaking preacher birdie with a clear argument and a > >smart English speaking preacher birdie with a clear rhetoric. Clumsy > >talker sometimes enchants the listeners because of the contents. Anyway > >I always love your witty joke, Thoa. > > A smart English speaking preacher with a clear argument creates poetry. I > could be Shakespeare, but you'll have to stick with Haiku, Eiichi.:o) > To be Shakespeare is to stay within literature, whereas to be Basho, who was the Haiku master in 18c, is to go beyond the boundary of literature and into both actual and vertical 'space', because he was a nomadic poet and his Haiku alludes the mixture of actual space and imaginative space. > >> >OK. My religious experiences are not theoretical ones, though. > >> > >> If not theoretical, what were they like? > >> > > > >Maybe mysticism. This answer makes a tautology, doesn't it? > > Depending on whether it REALLY is theoretical. > Yes. It is THEORETICAL mysticism. Maybe it is time for new balls. Shalom, Eiichi From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 16:41:16 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: American C0-Masonry Website Message-ID: <34DA400C.BD5@eden.com> American Co-Masonry, which admits women on equal footing with men, and is not under any foreign control, has set up a website at: http://www.co-masonry.org Anyone interested may want to visit it. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 18:08:43 -0500 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: American C0-Masonry Website Message-ID: <34DA467B.4F44@dmv.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > American Co-Masonry, which admits women on equal footing with men, and > is not under any foreign control, has set up a website at: > > http://www.co-masonry.org > > Anyone interested may want to visit it. > > mkr For those with an interest in Kabbalah and Freemasonry this is an interesting link: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9991/kabbalah.html Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 23:39:29 -0500 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Mabus... Message-ID: <34DA9400.25FB@dmv.com> Has anyone wondered about Nostradamus' prediction of antichrists. He forecasted Hilters name as Hister, which means that one letter must be changed, the s to l, and then the l and t switched in postion. Consider his name for the "third antichrist" MABUS. We might consider looking at SADAM for the winner of the jackpot, so to speak. First the name must be reversed, SUBAM, and change the B for D; thus: SUDAM, which might suffice, although, we might change that U to an A, but we should remember that we are working with a transliteration. Well, "happy trails to you... until we meet again..." Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 01:18:01 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The rebuilding of the temple Message-ID: In message <091d92942050528UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.co m>, KeithHouston writes >Is the WWW a temple as >in Vau_Vau_Vau : 666.? Oi veh veh veh! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 02:09:40 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome Message-ID: Theosophy International Welcomes Elizabeth Trumpler! Personal Welcomes to: elambert@bctf.bc.ca Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:52:16 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Gratitude Moment Message-ID: I'm drinking my decaffeinated coffee, thinking how cool the internet is. Via the discussion lists, I'm able to interact with theosophists, people who can discuss about the Absolute, sacred geometry, and black magic. I can be a busy person, a bed-ridden person, a fly on the wall, or maybe even incarcerated (do they allow prisoners access?) and still be a part of the conversation, even if it's only as a listener. Theosophists are pretty neat people. The people I live, work and play with daily are not theosophists, with the exception of dear Mark. Granted, theosophists love to argue. But who can argue as well as a theosophist? I thank those who responded to my posts so that I don't feel like I'm typing to nowhere land. I don't always get my answer, but I appreciate the attempt. I understand the time that it takes to respond to a post. I used to be pretty prompt in my responses, but I will just have to be a lagger at this time of my life. Thanks, folks. I love you, wo/man!!! Thoa :o) (being sentimental, because we need more tender emotion expressed in this world) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:56:03 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: OOPS! Message-ID: Sorry Elizabeth! It should of course be Elizabeth LAMBERT! [grovels gibbering in the dust] Alan In message , "Dr. A.M.Bain" writes >Theosophy International Welcomes Elizabeth Trumpler! > >Personal Welcomes to: elambert@bctf.bc.ca > >Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 22:55:08 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: OOPS! Message-ID: <34DE7E1C.CEDD65B6@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > Sorry Elizabeth! It should of course be Elizabeth LAMBERT! Pretty major difference. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:24:45 PST From: "Estela LariosLuna" Subject: Change (Finnally!) Message-ID: <19980209232445.14914.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, i do not know if the person who subscribes this is here, but i want to comunicate that i'm changing my adress, now it will be: gidondel@usa.net This is because of matters of time (LOONG WAITS in machine!) Estrella P.S. also i will like to be still subscribing to theos-span Thanks. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:05:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Subscribing Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980210000559.00cd16b8@mail.eden.com> Hi You need to send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with the following in the body of the msg: subscribe theos-l Estela LariosLuna subscribe theos-span Estela LariosLuna and you will get a msg from John E Mead and after responding to his msg, you will be added to the list. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 00:31:28 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: OOPS! Message-ID: In message <34DE7E1C.CEDD65B6@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >> Sorry Elizabeth! It should of course be Elizabeth LAMBERT! > > Pretty major difference. > > Bart Lidofsky > Who to? Is one Elizabeth "minor" via a vis the other? For the record, Elizabeth Trumpler was most kind and generous over the error. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 21:51:13 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS in America Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980209215113.008dd9d0@mail.eden.com> Early last year there were discussions on theos-l about the Mission of TS based on an article published in the Messenger -- the Official Publication of TSA which is sent to all members at-large of TSA. Subsequently I ran into two other instances where the aim of TS was introduced which gave me some concern if the mission of TS has changed. I communicated this concern to the National Board of Directors of TSA and received a response today from the National President. I am posting my letter to the National Board and the response from the Board and my reply. You be the judge and make up your mind on the matter. mkr ===================================================================== My Initial Letter: December 10, 1997 National President and Elected Members of Board of Directors Theosophical Society in America Wheaton, IL Dear Brother: For any organization, for its long term growth and survival, it is very important that its key mission is presented to the public and the membership reminded of it in a very simple unambiguous manner giving no chance for any misinterpretation or for any confusion. When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. In the early days of TS, the question whether the Universal Brotherhood mission of TS was the right one was raised from time to time. At one juncture, A P Sinnett raised it with one of the Real Founders. In response, the Maha Chohan, who was the Boss of the Founders was consulted. His response was put down in a letter. This letter is considered as one of the most important by every leader of TS starting with HPB onwards. It is considered as the Charter for TS. In it is stated: "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect Lamas, who are expected to allow the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, that of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of philosophy! No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a task too heavy for him. But there is hardly a Theosophist in the whole Society unable to effectually help it by correcting erroneous impressions of outsiders, by himself actually propagating this idea. Oh! for noble and unselfish men to help us effectually in that divine task! All our knowledge, past and present, would not be sufficient to repay him." In the light of the above, when I recently saw a statement by Bro. John Algeo, our National President I was very shocked and disappointed. In the letter published in Quest (1997) Holiday Gift Catalog he states: "The books and audios in this catalog come from the publishing arm of the Theosophical Society, a nondenominational organization devoted to helping its members: realize their inner potentials and seek out the mysteries of the universe" followed by two other items. The above statement would lead the uninformed reader to conclude that the mission of TS is to help everyone to work towards the selfish goal of realizing inner potentials and seeking out the mysteries of the universe.. Some time ago, in "The Messenger" which is edited by Bro. John Algeo and sent to all at-large members of TS, an unsigned serial article titled "Theosophy in a New Key", talks about three aims. It says that "The second aim of the Society is to offer its members a way of transforming themselves, of achieving the purpose of our evolution, of discovering who they really are. The third aim of the Society actually the first in importance is to bring together a group of people who are informed about the principles of the Wisdom Tradition, who have begun the work of self-transformation, and who are dedicated to cooperating with the elders and assisting in their work." [In reference to elders there is a discussion about the Mahatmas.] When I visited the TSA Internet WWW, I saw the following statement: "The Quest is published by the Theosophical Society in America, the American section of a worldwide organization promoting the comparative study of religion, philosophy, and science." When one considers all of the above it is very clear that wrong messages are being sent about the mission of TS. They tend to attract selfish persons seeking personal development and personal goals or scholarship with no interest in the "Orphan Humanity" or Universal Brotherhood. I do not know how much harm it has already done to TS in the United States. If this continues, more and more wrongly motivated selfish individuals would be joining the TS and it is only a question of time for TSA to be wrecked by its selfish membership who have no interest in Universal Brotherhood. I think the situation is a very serious one and needs swift and decisive action. Firstly the seriousness of the situation has to be recognized. Once this is done, a plan has to be developed to adopt a strategy to send the simple message that the mission of TS is to establish a nucleus of Universal Brotherhood. This message should be sent to our current members as well as to the public and frequently reinforced at every opportunity, in the hope that any wrong ideas that the membership and public may have formed is corrected promptly. When I brought the statement in the Quest Catalog and the article in The Messenger to the attention of Bro. Algeo, I received a one line response from him which did not address any of the above issues. I sent you all a copy of his letter which you should have received by now. In the light of the above, I think that the issues require very serious consideration at the level of Board of Directors. Hence I hereby formally request that it be included in the agenda of the upcoming meeting of the Board of Directors of TSA. As the issues raised above may have policy and other ramifications relative to the International Rules, I am copying this letter to Bro. Radha Burnier, our International President. With regards Fraternally yours, M K Ramadoss Member TSA, San Antonio Lodge Encls: 1. Maha Chohan Letter. 2. John Algeo's Letter in the Quest 1997 Holiday Catalog. 3. The Messenger - February 1996. 4. Print out from TSA Internet WWW. ================================================================ 2. John Algeo's reply regarding the decision of the Board of Directors: Wednesday, February 4, 1998 Dear Mr. Ramadoss: Your communication of December 10th was discussed at the January meeting of the National Board of Directors. Their unanimous conclusion what that the concern expressed in that letter is based upon a misreading of the intent of the documents you cite and is unwarranted. Sincerely yours, John Algeo National President ======================================= 3. My response to John Algeo: February 9, 1998 By First Class Mail, e-mail to theos@netcom.com, and Fax to 630-668-4976 John Algeo National President Theosophical Society in America 1926 North Mail Street Wheaton IL 60189-0270 Dear Bro. Algeo: I have just received your letter of February 4, 1998 informing me that TSA Board of Directors discussed my letter (regarding the mission of TS) of December 10, 1997 at the January meeting and that the Board concluded that the concern expressed in that letter is based upon a misreading of the intent of the documents I cited and is unwarranted. I do not agree with the conclusion and the reasoning based on which the Board reached the conclusion. Hence, I am going to leave it to the members and the interested public to decide for themselves, as I believe they are intelligent enough to make up their own minds whether the concern is the result of misreading and/or whether the concern in unwarranted. With regards, Fraternally yours, M. K. Ramadoss Member TSA San Antonio Lodge ===========================end========================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 00:22:12 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: OOPS! Message-ID: <34DFE403.E6A9F888@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <34DE7E1C.CEDD65B6@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > > >> Sorry Elizabeth! It should of course be Elizabeth LAMBERT! > > > > Pretty major difference. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > Who to? Is one Elizabeth "minor" via a vis the other? For the record, > Elizabeth Trumpler was most kind and generous over the error. Elizabeth Trumpler, like most, and possibly all, officials at TSA, is a kind and generous person, contrary to rumors spread around in groups like this one. And there can be a major difference between two people without one being more important than another. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 23:37:33 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: A New Release from Without Walls Message-ID: <34E003BA.5AA1@withoutwalls.com> A New Graphic Release from Without Walls: The Boundless (132k) http://www.withoutwalls.com/Boundless.jpg -- A little reminder for the millenial world. Don't miss these other Without Walls theos links: http://www.withoutwalls.com/artwork -- An archive of images from the Wisdom Tradition http://www.withoutwalls.com/Mystery/Question.html -- The Answer to all of Life's Greatest Questions keeping it real. -- M -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:29:30 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Algeo, Bart Message-ID: <199802101429.JAA12910@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> According to theos-l@vnet.net: Doss had written: > > Some time ago, in "The Messenger" which is edited by Bro. John Algeo and > sent to all at-large members of TS, an unsigned serial article titled > "Theosophy in a New Key", talks about three aims. It says that "The second > aim of the Society is to offer its members a way of transforming > themselves, of achieving the purpose of our evolution, of discovering who > they really are. The third aim of the Society actually the first in > importance is to bring together a group of people who are informed about > the principles of the Wisdom Tradition, who have begun the work of > self-transformation, and who are dedicated to cooperating with the elders > and assisting in their work." [In reference to elders there is a discussion > about the Mahatmas.] A very serious matter indeed, to dictate which objective of the TS is first in importance, and then define it in a highly sectarian way that would have horrified Olcott, HPB and the Masters, all of whom are on record many times in direct opposition to any such claim. > > When I brought the statement in the Quest Catalog and the article in The > Messenger to the attention of Bro. Algeo, I received a one line response > from him which did not address any of the above issues. I sent you all a > copy of his letter which you should have received by now. Typically curt, abrupt, and absolutely indifferent to the fact that as head of the section he has a major responsibility to try to reconcile differences, *hear* member concerns, at least *pretend* to care about them, and to be responsive. Since you don't post the one line letter, all I can say is it fits what I have seen to three other members, myself included. This guy seems hell-bent on making enemies. > > 2. John Algeo's reply regarding the decision of the Board of Directors: > > > Wednesday, February 4, 1998 > > > Dear Mr. Ramadoss: > > Your communication of December 10th was discussed at the January meeting of > the National Board of Directors. Their unanimous conclusion what that the > concern expressed in that letter is based upon a misreading of the intent > of the documents you cite and is unwarranted. > > Sincerely yours, > > > > John Algeo > National President > another typically imperious, abrupt, nonresponsive and essentially (sorry to say so) "Fuck you" letter, to go along with who knows how many that preceded it. > > > Elizabeth Trumpler, like most, and possibly all, officials at TSA, is a > kind and generous person, contrary to rumors spread around in groups like > this one. Doss has just given us documentary evidence, not rumors, that is pretty damning in terms of our national president's "kind and generous" manner in dealing with member concerns. And no one on this list to my knowledge has ever said a word against Elisabeth Trumpler or any other staff member at Olcott. Those of us who deplore the arrogance of Algeo and the Board feel very sorry indeed for those kind and generous people who are forced to live in the atmosphere that is so obvious in the letter Doss forwarded. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:39:24 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Fw: Theos-World Brotherhood of Humanity Message-ID: <01ITERTB5GFY8ZET8A@InfoAve.Net> (where is this discussion taking place??) ---------- > From: John E. Mead > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Brotherhood of Humanity > Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 9:14 AM > > > > ---------- > > From: Bart Lidofsky > > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Subject: Theos-World Brotherhood of Humanity > > > > However, let's turn this into a real discussion: > > > > What, in your opinion, does "Brotherhood of Humanity" mean? > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > > well... it would help if you actually read the whole sentence. :-) > > the concept is to help eliminate the various and primary causes of > Humanity's > disrest and sufferrings (causes are as stated in the object itself) > > a few examples... > > support more parliaments of the world religions > > support nation-states to eliminate despotism and social slavery > > support efforts to feed, clothe, educate all who are in need > > the list is endless.... you *well* know what it means don't you??? > (MHO - I am assuming you are playing a rather silly rhetorical game) > > i.e. help create a world-wide state of mind where the primary business > of humanity is *humanity*. > > ever read a book on humanist thought? > > of course the statement you want to make is that it is such an overwhelming > all-encompassing task that it is meaningless to bring it to the attention > of the public? if so... > > bull-s*** > > if the TSA leadership can't lead they should get out of the way. > > john e. m. > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:03:18 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Message-ID: <01ITESNRTDUY8ZEVCL@InfoAve.Net> In message <34DE7E1C.CEDD65B6@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > > >> Sorry Elizabeth! It should of course be Elizabeth LAMBERT! > > > > Pretty major difference. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > Who to? Is one Elizabeth "minor" via a vis the other? For the record, > Elizabeth Trumpler was most kind and generous over the error. Elizabeth Trumpler, like most, and possibly all, officials at TSA, is a kind and generous person, contrary to rumors spread around in groups like this one. And there can be a major difference between two people without one being more important than another. Bart Lidofsky what are you talking about? the question was *what* major differences? apparantly Elizabeth would never *be seen* on TI-L because of some moral standard (or whatever it is you were using for the comparison) ?? are we back onto the 1st object again?? i'm quite curious now... please explain thanks & peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:00:46 -0700 From: "John R. Crocker" Subject: Re: OOPS! Message-ID: <001601bd3634$bbf5f660$17338396@lo201c.registrar.umt.edu> > Elizabeth Trumpler, like most, and possibly all, officials at TSA, is a >kind and generous person, contrary to rumors spread around in groups like >this one. And there can be a major difference between two people without >one being more important than another. Being kind and generous doesn't in any way shape or form imply a person is worth a damn at actually running something. And so far as "RUMORS" go - well "some people" on this list have pretty damn *personal* evidence that at least a few officals are *anything* but "kind and generous" - despite the rumors to that effect spread by blind supporters. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:10:08 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Message-ID: <34E0A610.5FADE4B7@sprynet.com> John E Mead wrote: > what are you talking about? the question was *what* major differences? > > apparantly Elizabeth would never *be seen* on TI-L because of some moral > standard (or whatever it is you were using for the comparison) ?? I don't know what Elizabeth Trumpler would do on TI-L. I do know she used to be present on THIS list, and has not posted in a long time, and had assumed that she no longer reads the list. From Dr. Bain's messages, it would appear that TI (which he has specifically stated is NOT the same thing as TI-L) was created at least partially as a reaction against policies and politics in various other theosophical organization (in the sense of, "don't complain about it, DO something about it", or, "if you don't like it start your own organization"). Based on how he was treated in England, I consider what he did as something very positive; there are many paths to the same place (and some would say "Truth is a pathless land"...). However, as far as I know, not a single official of any other Theosophical organization has yet to join TI. If Elizabeth Trumpler, the head librarian at Olcott Center, joined TI, it would be a significant event, not because of her, but because of her position, her influence, and her reputation. It would be like the difference between John Mead joining and John Algeo joining (well maybe not in degree, but in kind). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:15:34 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Fw: Theos-World TS in America Message-ID: <01ITF1ICU5H68ZEURM@InfoAve.Net> ---------- > From: John E. Mead > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World TS in America > Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 12:50 PM > > > > ---------- > > From: M K Ramadoss > > To: theos-l@vnet.net; theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Cc: ramadoss@eden.com > > Subject: Theos-World TS in America > > Date: Monday, February 09, 1998 10:51 PM > > > > > > > > You be the judge and make up your mind on the matter. > > > > mkr > > ===================================================================== > > My Initial Letter: > > > > > > December 10, 1997 > > > > > > National President > > and Elected Members of Board of Directors > > Theosophical Society in America > > Wheaton, IL > > > > > > > > Dear Brother: > > > > For any organization, for its long term growth and survival, it is very > > important that its key mission is presented to the public and the > > membership reminded of it in a very simple unambiguous manner giving no > > chance for any misinterpretation or for any confusion. > > > > When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real > > Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. > > In the early days of TS, the question whether the Universal Brotherhood > > mission of TS was the right one was raised from time to time. At one > > juncture, A P Sinnett raised it with one of the Real Founders. In > response, > > the Maha Chohan, who was the Boss of the Founders was consulted. His > > response was put down in a letter. This letter is considered as one of > the > > most important by every leader of TS starting with HPB onwards. It is > > considered as the Charter for TS. In it is stated: > > > > "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect Lamas, who are > > expected to allow the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, > that > > of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of philosophy! > > No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long > > already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to > > grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a > task > > too heavy for him. But there is hardly a Theosophist in the whole Society > > unable to effectually help it by correcting erroneous impressions of > > outsiders, by himself actually propagating this idea. Oh! for noble and > > unselfish men to help us effectually in that divine task! All our > > knowledge, past and present, would not be sufficient to repay him." > > > > > > It seems clear that the TSA now wants to have a different purpose for the > TSA than that of the original founding Brotherhood??!! > > I think the TSA leaders should spend several weeks with someone who really > lives and believes in the First Object... like maybe the Dalai Lama??? > > (Is it relevent to point out that the ES also ignores (in fact is *defined* > to ignore) the first and foremost Object also? maybe not... > Hmmmm... the Dalai Lama doesn't even meet their requirements. we would > have to find someone more spiritual and worthy that would/could meet their > requirements). > > peace - > > john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:43:49 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Re: Message-ID: <01ITF2GML0Z08ZETGP@InfoAve.Net> > From: Bart Lidofsky > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: > > > However, as far as I know, not a single official of any other Theosophical > organization has yet to join TI. If Elizabeth Trumpler, the head librarian at > Olcott Center, joined TI, it would be a significant event, not because of her, > but because of her position, her influence, and her reputation. It would be > like the difference between John Mead joining and John Algeo joining (well > maybe not in degree, but in kind). That is a point I can certainly agree on. it is interesting that Olcott library is still subscribed, but has e-mail *postponed*. perhaps it was too active of a list? (certainly not true now). peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:51:21 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: TS in America Message-ID: I find all this to be sad, particularly sad because of the lack or refusal of communication. As somewhat of an outsider and no loyalty to either side, I have some comments and questions. I'm ready to be flamed. What is the Theosophical Society? What sets it unique from other organizations? One of its object (let's say, the first) is to promote the Brotherhood of Humanity. Another of its object (say, second) is to discover the mysteries and the truth. If we focus on the first object, we can do volunteerism, etc., without enriching our knowledge of the mysteries of life. Why would I need the T.S. for that? There are countless organizations that I could lend a hand to that is devoted purely to service, no scholarship needed, no theosophical rules and politic required. If I focus on the second object, I would be greatly stimulated by little inklings of the mysteries that I learned and comprehended. The danger of that is that I could have all this great knowledge without doing anything to promote the Brotherhood of Humanity. On the other hand, would not knowing the mysteries open one up to the Brotherhood of Humanity? Certainly, a true student of occultism would realize this, and not just focus on the power aspects of occultism. For me, an inkling of the mystery makes me feel like Ramakrishna, makes love flow from my heart, and makes me more kind and tolerant of others. When you actually feel the mystery, the material and power aspects become unimportant. When you feel the mystery, you feel interconnectedness with all beings and life. With this interconnectedness, you would not want to hurt others, for you feel that they are like yourself. Doss: > When one considers all of the above it is very clear that wrong >messages are being sent about the mission of TS. They tend to attract >selfish >persons seeking personal development and personal goals or scholarship with >no interest in the "Orphan Humanity" or Universal Brotherhood. I do not >know how much harm it has already done to TS in the United States. If this >continues, more and more wrongly motivated selfish individuals would be >joining the TS and it is only a question of time for TSA to be wrecked by >its selfish membership who have no interest in Universal Brotherhood. This is a very harsh assessment. People follow the path in myriad ways. I would give them all credit for starting somewhere, and would be hesitant to blanket describe them as selfish. My feeling is that if one truly follows the path, eventually one could not avoid the understanding of the Universal Brotherhood. Some can go straight into doing whatever they can for the "orphan humanity", but others need to be at certain stages of development. I believe that understanding, tolerance, and setting good examples will do more good than making people feel that they are selfish. My personal belief is that building a strong inner foundation will enable the person to be more effective helpers of humanity. An ignorant helper of humanity can sometimes do more harm than good, although the chances of hurting by helping are little, IMO. I was more concerned with effectiveness. I have periods where I am out to the world, and periods where I am in seclusion to strengthen my foundation. Both periods are valid, and I have no apologies for either periods. These "selfish" people are also a part of orphan humanity, Doss. They are also lost and trying to find themselves. In finding themselves, they will be stronger as a helpful Brother. Perhaps the most effective way for theosophists to spread the value of service, is to keep on performing service, and promote service through discussions and news items of areas of service needed. You can describe to a person a great dish, but it would not really make them hungry until they see you eating with gusto that delightful dish. I agree that John Algeo, if he was really concerned about his brother theosophists, would put himself on the line and be open, in order to communicate and understand all concerns. If he was truly an open-hearted theosophist, he would put himself out in the line of fire, and wisely defuse the arguments. In this way, he would do more to unite theosophists and gain respect, rather than through terse communication. Any truly great people would put themselves out in the open, even under the real threat of bullets, such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King. I don't think John Algeo would have to worry about bullets, just a bunch of theosophists with great vocabulary. Is the TS important enough for that step to be taken? On the other hand, what step can the dissenting theosophists do to unite with the TS? Do you be direct and accusing? Or can you quietly perform services for the TS while putting your influences in? I have no idea how resistant the TS is to changing ideas. If the leadership would not be influenced, then how about all the different lodges setting their own focus? And what about spreading the influences to other lodges via communication? You start with one, spread to a group, spread to a lodge, spread to other lodges, until it touches the leadership? Naive? Why not? Communication can be powerful if done smartly. Okay, I'll stop now. I need to go to a monastery and take my vow of silence. I'm not doing too well on my own. Love and light to all of you, Thoa :o) ***************** Doss' letter: >Dear Brother: > > For any organization, for its long term growth and survival, it is very >important that its key mission is presented to the public and the >membership reminded of it in a very simple unambiguous manner giving no >chance for any misinterpretation or for any confusion. > > When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real >Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. >In the early days of TS, the question whether the Universal Brotherhood >mission of TS was the right one was raised from time to time. At one >juncture, A P Sinnett raised it with one of the Real Founders. In response, >the Maha Chohan, who was the Boss of the Founders was consulted. His >response was put down in a letter. This letter is considered as one of the >most important by every leader of TS starting with HPB onwards. It is >considered as the Charter for TS. In it is stated: > > "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect >Lamas, who are >expected to allow the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, that >of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of philosophy! >No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long >already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to >grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a task >too heavy for him. But there is hardly a Theosophist in the whole Society >unable to effectually help it by correcting erroneous impressions of >outsiders, by himself actually propagating this idea. Oh! for noble and >unselfish men to help us effectually in that divine task! All our >knowledge, past and present, would not be sufficient to repay him." > > In the light of the above, when I recently saw a statement by Bro. John >Algeo, our National President I was very shocked and disappointed. In the >letter published in Quest (1997) Holiday Gift Catalog he states: > >"The books and audios in this catalog come from the publishing arm of the >Theosophical Society, a nondenominational organization devoted to helping >its members: > > realize their inner potentials and seek out the mysteries of the >universe" > >followed by two other items. > > The above statement would lead the uninformed reader to conclude >that the >mission of TS is to help everyone to work towards the selfish goal of >realizing inner potentials and seeking out the mysteries of the universe.. > > Some time ago, in "The Messenger" which is edited by Bro. John >Algeo and >sent to all at-large members of TS, an unsigned serial article titled >"Theosophy in a New Key", talks about three aims. It says that "The second >aim of the Society is to offer its members a way of transforming >themselves, of achieving the purpose of our evolution, of discovering who >they really are. The third aim of the Society actually the first in >importance is to bring together a group of people who are informed about >the principles of the Wisdom Tradition, who have begun the work of >self-transformation, and who are dedicated to cooperating with the elders >and assisting in their work." [In reference to elders there is a discussion >about the Mahatmas.] > > When I visited the TSA Internet WWW, I saw the following statement: > > "The Quest is published by the Theosophical Society in >America, the >American section of a worldwide organization promoting the comparative >study of religion, philosophy, and science." > > When one considers all of the above it is very clear that wrong >messages >are being sent about the mission of TS. They tend to attract selfish >persons seeking personal development and personal goals or scholarship with >no interest in the "Orphan Humanity" or Universal Brotherhood. I do not >know how much harm it has already done to TS in the United States. If this >continues, more and more wrongly motivated selfish individuals would be >joining the TS and it is only a question of time for TSA to be wrecked by >its selfish membership who have no interest in Universal Brotherhood. > > I think the situation is a very serious one and needs swift and >decisive >action. Firstly the seriousness of the situation has to be recognized. Once >this is done, a plan has to be developed to adopt a strategy to send the >simple message that the mission of TS is to establish a nucleus of >Universal Brotherhood. This message should be sent to our current members >as well as to the public and frequently reinforced at every opportunity, in >the hope that any wrong ideas that the membership and public may have >formed is corrected promptly. > > When I brought the statement in the Quest Catalog and the article >in The >Messenger to the attention of Bro. Algeo, I received a one line response >from him which did not address any of the above issues. I sent you all a >copy of his letter which you should have received by now. > > In the light of the above, I think that the issues require very serious >consideration at the level of Board of Directors. Hence I hereby formally >request that it be included in the agenda of the upcoming meeting of the >Board of Directors of TSA. > > As the issues raised above may have policy and other ramifications >relative to the International Rules, I am copying this letter to Bro. Radha >Burnier, our International President. > > With regards > > Fraternally yours, > > > > M K Ramadoss > Member TSA, San Antonio Lodge > >Encls: 1. Maha Chohan Letter. > 2. John Algeo's Letter in the Quest 1997 Holiday Catalog. > 3. The Messenger - February 1996. > 4. Print out from TSA Internet WWW. > >================================================================ > >2. John Algeo's reply regarding the decision of the Board of Directors: > > >Wednesday, February 4, 1998 > > >Dear Mr. Ramadoss: > >Your communication of December 10th was discussed at the January meeting of >the National Board of Directors. Their unanimous conclusion what that the >concern expressed in that letter is based upon a misreading of the intent >of the documents you cite and is unwarranted. > >Sincerely yours, > > > >John Algeo >National President > >======================================= > >3. My response to John Algeo: > > > >February 9, 1998 > > >By First Class Mail, e-mail to theos@netcom.com, and > Fax to 630-668-4976 > > > >John Algeo >National President >Theosophical Society in America >1926 North Mail Street >Wheaton IL 60189-0270 > > > >Dear Bro. Algeo: > >I have just received your letter of February 4, 1998 informing me that TSA >Board of Directors discussed my letter (regarding the mission of TS) of >December 10, 1997 at the January meeting and that the Board concluded that >the concern expressed in that letter is based upon a misreading of the >intent of the documents I cited and is unwarranted. > >I do not agree with the conclusion and the reasoning based on which the >Board reached the conclusion. Hence, I am going to leave it to the members >and the interested public to decide for themselves, as I believe they are >intelligent enough to make up their own minds whether the concern is the >result of misreading and/or whether the concern in unwarranted. > >With regards, > >Fraternally yours, > > > > >M. K. Ramadoss >Member TSA >San Antonio Lodge From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:17:50 -0500 (EST) From: John E Mead InfoAvenue Operations Subject: TSA (fwd from myself on theos-world) Message-ID: <01ITFA4O3UC293AN6G@InfoAve.Net> >Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:55:10 -0500 >From: John E Mead >Subject: Re: Theos-World TS in America > From: Brenda S Tucker > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World TS in America > Date: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 2:17 PM > > > >> When the TS was launched, it was very clear in the minds of the Real > >> Founders that its mission is to form a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. > > This is incorrect. The idea in the first object is misstated and > misunderstood by Ramadoss because he is shortening the form of it. It is > not to form a Universal Brotherhood or to accent the "Brotherhood of > Humanity" as the Maha Chohan states, but to "form a nucleus of the > Universal Brotherhood." > > When I form a nucleus, not all existing parts of society are included in > this nucleus, some elements of the TS may exist in the electrons and some > foreign elements may exist alongside our "atom," but not be considered part > and party of our "atom." > > Please don't misstate the first object by saying it is: Brotherhood, > Brotherhood of Man, or Universal Brotherhood, because it is not. > a nice distinction. However a few points still need to be addressed... 1) Why is the TSA backing off from this object (if it indeed is)? 2) The first object has *never* been met. In fact, the various TS organizations all (may) seem to have been formed because of the *inability* to do precisely this Object. 3) The second and third objects are easily being meet with, and being handled *better* by other independent *well* established and *larger* organizations. 4) in light of 3) above.... *without* the first object there is currently no need to even *have* *any* theosophical society(s) and/or organizations. 5) after over a hundred years of effort, with very marginal success if not outright failure to meet the first three original objects... why are we abandoning the initial goal with little or no discussion? 6) The next millenium needs the first object *more* (& *now*) than at any other time in our history. (MHO) peace - john e. mead -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:30:28 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS -- Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980210193028.007a44f0@mail.eden.com> As a follow up to the correspondence I had with TSA National President/BOD here are a few additional items. I will post the initial one line response I got from the National President as soon as I am able to locate the letter. When I found out that Mr. John Algeo was visiting Adyar, I faxed my correspondence to Mrs. Radha Burnier so that both may have a chance to discuss the matter in person when Algeo was in Adyar. I do not know if any discussion took place. The Universal Brotherhood question is the most critical foundation of TS. In the April 1880 issue of The Theosophist, HPB published a full account of the entirely remodelled constitution of TS which took place in Benares, India in December 1879. The full account was published in a significant new double title: THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OR UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD In it, HPB speaks of the Society being "Formed upon the basis of a Universal Brotherhood". Also in "The Path" December 1886 issue HPB writes "We are in the very midst of the Egyptian darkness of Kali Yuga -- the "Black Age," the first 5,000 years of which --- its dreary first cycle -- is preparing to close on the world between 1897-8. Unless we can succeed in placing the TS before that date, on the safe side of the spiritual current, it will be swept away irretrievably into the Deep called "Failures" and the cold waves of oblivion will close over its devoted head. Thus will have ingloriously perished the *only* association whose aims, and rules and original purposes answer in every particular and detail -- if strictly carried out -- to the innermost fundamental thought of every great Adept-Reformer -- the beautiful dream of a Universal Brotherhood of Man." In a copy of the Maha Chohan's letter that was published, Alice Cleather -- one of HPB's pupils and one of the member of the Inner Group has the following heading: Several good reasons given by the CHOHAN, why the TS should be a Brotherhood of Humanity. For the Simla Eclectic T.S. Even though the two Masters took the trouble to launch TS, when Sinnett questioned the wisdom of having the Brotherhood plank to further TS, Master KH took the trouble to go to His Boss, the Chohan to consult Him. In spite the high spiritual attainment of the Adept, He took the trouble of checking up with His Boss. I am certain that the Brotherhood issue was of such a critical one that Master KH discussed it with the Chohan. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:02:48 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: The mystery of the mysteries Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >would not >knowing the mysteries open one up to the Brotherhood of Humanity? >Certainly, a true student of occultism would realize this, and not just >focus on the power aspects of occultism. For me, an inkling of the mystery >makes me feel like Ramakrishna, makes love flow from my heart, and makes >me >more kind and tolerant of others. When you actually feel the mystery, the >material and power aspects become unimportant. When you feel the mystery, >you feel interconnectedness with all beings and life. With this >interconnectedness, you would not want to hurt others, for you feel that >they are like yourself. There is no religion higher than truth. See Thoa's text above. I would personally emphasize *all beings* and *life* - once I rescued an earthworm for this very reason. Earthworms belong in the earth, not the street. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:50:48 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Rumors? Experiences perhaps? Message-ID: <0QysdcAoXP40Ew+8@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <34DFE403.E6A9F888@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > Elizabeth Trumpler, like most, and possibly all, officials at TSA, is a >kind and generous person, contrary to rumors spread around in groups like >this one. And there can be a major difference between two people without >one being more important than another. Please cite the rumors to which you refer. You stated that there was a major difference between two people. Whilst your theory above may be correct, it can only be practically applied if both persons are known to you in relatively equal degree, otherwise I would interpret your remark as potentially demeaning to Elizabeth Lambert. Do you know her? If not, your remark is, to say the least, ill-advised. I have never suggested or rumored that Elizabeth Trumpler was anything other than kind and generous, and in fact, said exactly that in my previous response. There has been, however, some *evidence* that some people at the TSA HQ may be less than kind and generous, as witness the curt response to M.K.Ramadoss' concerns recently posted, which, IMHO, was curt to the point of offensiveness. I made a typing error when very tired, for which I apologised unequivocally and immediately, receiving, as I said, a kind and generous response (privately) from Elizabeth Trumpler, for whom I have nothing but kind words to say from my occasional encounters via the list. Your own post in this matter seems to me to be potentially *unkind* to Elizabeth Lambert, and I find it difficult not to see a contentious motive in your making any comment in the first place. AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:12:47 +1000 From: tosaki Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1417 Message-ID: <34E14F6E.1498@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au> Dear Doss, Thoa and Members of TS, M K Ramadoss wrote: > "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect >Lamas, who are >expected to allow the Theosophical Society to drop its noblest title, that >of the Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of philosophy! >No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long >already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent to >grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a task >too heavy for him. But there is hardly a Theosophist in the whole Society >unable to effectually help it by correcting erroneous impressions of >outsiders, by himself actually propagating this idea. Oh! for noble and >unselfish men to help us effectually in that divine task! All our >knowledge, past and present, would not be sufficient to repay him." > (II(J > When one considers all of the above it is very clear that wrong >messages >are being sent about the mission of TS. They tend to attract selfish >persons seeking personal development and personal goals or scholarship with >no interest in the "Orphan Humanity" or Universal Brotherhood. I do not >know how much harm it has already done to TS in the United States. If this >continues, more and more wrongly motivated selfish individuals would be >joining the TS and it is only a question of time for TSA to be wrecked by >its selfish membership who have no interest in Universal Brotherhood. > > I think the situation is a very serious one and needs swift and >decisive >action. This is Eiichi Tosaki. I am the one of them who are using this TS to gather authentic knowledge about Theosophy for my 'personal goals' and 'scholarship'. I am writing PhD dissertation concerning a Dutch artist Piet Mondrian, who was a theosophist and whose art was deeply influenced by being a lifetime theosophist. So far the exchanges of ideas with Thoa & Mark and others on TS have been very fruitful to me: because of this I added one more chapter "Theory of rhythm in Mondrian and Hinduism" to my dissertation. Hitherto as far as I know, no other art historians have excavated this topic fully (some of them actually have wrote about the relationship between Mondrian and Theosophy, but not so deep). I myself had found the first clue the relationship between Mondrian and Hinduism through the text of Bailey and I put the question on this TS, and Thoa and Mark kindly deepened and ascertained the linking. This linking will be a discovery in the context of art history. I (and Thoa) will be a first discoverer. But honestly I do not care. The fact that I am writing a dissertation in art history to get a degree and hopefully to get a job concerning this area, does not kill my desire to disseminate and share my ideas with public. I had not gotten a time enough to deepen my idea about art until starting the PhD candidature in Australia. I quit my comparatively lucrative job in Japan for getting this opportunity. I find this is a noble thing. Definitely thinking of art through theosophy has enriched my understanding of art and philosophy. I appreciate theosophists and members of this TS for this. To me writing about Mondrian especially in the context of theosophy and the philosophy in this concern occurs in the aura of esoteric atmosphere of Hinduism or Yoga and Theosophy (actually I first got the idea of writing about 'Mondrian and Rhythm' while I was meditating on the rock in the mountainous place called Madovan (maybe wrong spelling) in India, which I visited to attend the Spiritual University of Raga Yoga sect. It was a kind of a sacred inspiration to me). I hope in the future I'd like to publish my dissertation and art historians will start to think about the linkage between Western Modern Art and Hinduism (and Theosophy) more seriously. This trend nobody can stop since the more deeply you meditate about the spirituality in art, the more inevitably you encounter the Hindu or esoteric doctrine. Who is the first discoverer of this does not matter. Arguments between Thoa and I are now hitting the bedrock of Hegelian logicalism, which sounds too much scholastic and dry. However, this, I believer, is not the hardest part. Hardest part will come later: Mondrian (or Western abstract artists in this century) and Hinduism. When we start to hit another bedrock of this, we may seek for the help from the other knowledgeable TS members. I wonder whether we should retreat our arguments from this TS until we get into more theosophical topics. Actually we retreated couple months ago but later we realized some of your member kept following our arguments and put them back on this TS. I am pretty happy to retreat our arguments for a while. How do you think, Thoa and other member of TS? I hope I am not disturbing the dissemination of your noble idea of "Universal Brotherhood." Sorry for my messy English (English is my second language). Sincerely, Eiichi From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:11:03 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS - Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980211001103.008307e0@mail.eden.com> In a book by Alice Leighton Cleather titled "H.P. Blavatsky - Her Life and Work for Humanity" there is an interesting chapter on Universal Brotherhood. Cleather was a pupil of HPB and was one of the members of the Inner Group HPB formed. I think in the context of the discussion on Universal Brotherhood, some may find it interesting. mkr ============================================ CHAPTER II. Foundation of the Universal Brotherhood Movement in India. H. P. B. and Colonel Olcott arrived in England from New York on New Year's Day, 1879, stopping a short time in London to see the members of the British Theosophical Society (afterwards called the London Lodge) and some leading Spiritualists and Egyptologists. On January 19, they left for Bombay, passing through several terrific gales, in the midst of which we find H. P. B. writing in her diary:—" Night of tossing and rolling... Oh for the Land! Oh for India and Home !" In his Incidents in the Life of Madame Blavatsky (Chapter IX, 1st Edition, 1885), Mr. A. P. Sinnett writes:—" Her Theosophic Mission appears to have had India as its objective point from the outset," that she " came to India to plant the Theosophical Society in the soil where it was destined chiefly to flourish." How could one doubt that the Trans-Himalayan Masters of Wisdom had India in view " from the outset " in their great effort for the rehabilitation of Buddhism—real Buddhism, the Bodhidharma of the Archaic Ages taught by all the Buddhas ? This effort is peculiarly significant at the close of the first five thousand years of the Kali Yuga, and approximately two thousand five hundred after Gautama Buddha's Enlightenment and Renunciation of Nirvana (the Trans-Himalayan Tradition). How, I say, could one doubt this when one reads the Maha Chohan's Letter, written in 1880 ? This, however, will be dealt with later on. At present we are concerned with the arrival of H. P. B. at Bombay in February 1879, and the activities Immediately following. It was while they were at Bombay that she and Colonel Olcott became acquainted, at first through correspondence, with Mr. Sinnett, then Editor of the Pioneer. It was to him and to Mr. A. O. Hume, a Revenue official at Simla, that the Letter from the Maha Chohan, above mentioned, was written. We come now to the founding by H. P. B. of the Theosophist, " a monthly journal devoted to Oriental Philosophy, Art, Literature, and Occultism." The first number appeared on October I, 1879; but to read Colonel Olcott's account in Old Diary Leaves it might be supposed she had little or nothing to do with it. I feel that, in justice to H. P. B.'s memory, I must place on record my condemnation of the whole tone which Colonel Olcott uses in writing of his great colleague; of the petty feelings shown, and the baseless and unworthy insinuations, throughout his four volumes. To call them " The True History of the Theosophical Society " is preposterous; it is a case of Hamlet without the Prince. Good man, tireless and devoted worker as he undoubtedly was, Colonel Olcott's egotism was quite beyond the -normal; consequently he was incapable of understanding the real H. P. B. How different might have been the subsequent history of the Society had he been able to bring himself to listen more often to her advice ! But he did not possess that true humility which would have enabled him to recognise her as immeasurably his superior in the occult sense; although, as we have already seen, -he became her pledged pupil before they left America. In the first number of the Theosophist there is much of extreme importance, germane to my present purpose; e.g. in her editorial " What is Theosophy ? " H. P. B. says:—" Theosophy is, then, the archaic Wisdom- the esoteric doctrine once known in every ancient country having claims to civilization." It is followed by one entitled " What are the Theosophists ? " In it H. P. B. speaks of the Society being established " upon the footing of a Universal Brotherhood," showing that with their arrival in India the time had come to make this a cardinal principle of the Society. Only two months later, in December, at Benares, the constitution was entirely remodelled and established on a purely esoteric basis. H. P. B. publishes a full account of it in the Theosophist for April, 1880, under the significant new double title: THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OR UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. Beneath are the words:—" Formed at New York, U. S. of America, October 30, 1875; " but, as I showed in Chapter I, the New York Society did not concern itself with Brotherhood at all. Next follow:—" Principles, Rules, and Bye-Laws, as revised in General Council at the meeting held at the palace of H. H. the Maharajah of Vizianagram, Benares, 17th December, 1879." The most notable and vital features of this new Constitution, formulated in and for India, are the following:— " Formed upon the basis of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity," there was a General Council, and the President was " himself subject to the authority of a Supreme Council representing the highest section." This section being, as we shall see further on, confined to " Initiates in Esoteric Science and Philosophy " (i.e., the Masters), it is evident that the Society in its new form was to be under Their direct control. This is a very important point, as showing that the intention was to place India once again under the spiritual guidance of her ancient Rishis. The declared plans were:— (a) " To keep alive in man his spiritual intuitions." (b) " To oppose and counteract . . . bigotry in every form, whether as an intolerant religious sectarianism, or belief in miracles or anything supernatural." c) " To promote a feeling of brotherhood among nations . . . ' d) " To seek to obtain knowledge of all the laws of Nature . . . and Occult Sciences." (e) " To gather for the Society's library . correct information upon the various ancient philosophies, traditions, and legends.... " (f) " To promote . . . non-sectarian education." (g) " Finally and chiefly, to encourage and assist individual Fellows in self-improvement, intellectual, moral, and spiritual." The necessary instruction was to be given by members of the " First Section " (i.e., the Masters) under " a solemn oath not to use it for selfish purposes, nor to reveal it, except with the permission of the teacher." The Society was divided into three Sections:— The First was " composed exclusively of proficients or initiates in Esoteric Science and Philosophy." The Second consisted of those who " have become able to regard all men as equally their brothers, irrespective of caste, colour, race, or creed; and who are ready to defend the life or honour of a brother Theosophist even at the risk of their own lives." The Third was the " Section of Probationers," who were divided into "Active, Corresponding, and Honorary." They were " on probation, until their purpose to remain in the Society " had " become fixed, their usefulness shown, and their ability to conquer evil habits and unwarrantable prejudices demonstrated." It is evident, therefore, that this section was intended for candidates for Chelaship, and that promotion to the Second Section implied that the candidate was "accepted" by the Members of the First. This purely Esoteric basis for the whole Society was interfered with by Colonel Olcott's exoteric objections and activities. When H. P. B. finally had to leave India in 1885 (again owing to this attitude of his in failing to support her in refuting the Madras Missionary attack), she revived it as the " Esoteric Section," at London, in 1888. A very important clause, in view of the political activities of the present T. S. in India, under Mrs. Besant, was the following:— " The Society repudiates all interference on its behalf with the Governmental relations of any nation or community, confining its attention exclusively to the matters set forth in the present document...." H. P. B. had already struck this note very forcibly in the Theosophist for October, where, speaking of the Society's programme, she writes:— " Unconcerned about politics: hostile to the insane dreams of Socialism and Communism, which it abhors [Italics mine - A.L.C.] - as both are but disguised conspiracies of brutal force and selfishness against honest labour; the Society cares but little about the outward human management of the material world. The whole of its aspirations are directed towards the occult truths of the visible and invisible worlds. Whether the physical man be under the rule of an empire or a republic concerns only the man of matter. His body may be enslaved; as to his Soul he has the right to give the proud answer of Socrates to his Judges. They have no sway over the inner man. Such is the Theosophical Society, and such its multifarious aims and objects.... " In a " true history " of the T. S. this very important Constitution ought to have been fully recorded; but not even the barest mention is to be found in Old Diary Leaves. Colonel Olcott devotes several chapters of vol. 2 to the events at Benares, when H. P. B. and he were the guests of the Maharajah; but, as usual, they are mostly minor matters, entertainments, and affairs in which he was the leading figure. H. P. B. only comes in when she satisfies his craze for phenomena. It was ever her custom to give him the limelight, and he took full advantage of it. That there must be some reason for this extraordinary omission is certain. It may be that what he flippantly called " the brotherhood plank " being now introduced was not agreeable to him. Certainly he would be likely to object to the occult character imparted to the new T. S. He invariably showed an entire want of comprehension of such matters and undisguised indifference (not to say contempt) for anything " occult " or " esoteric." This fatal lack in his make-up rendered him quite unable to appreciate the formation of the T. S. OR U. B. on an esoteric basis with the Masters as the Supreme Council and First Section, and H. P. B. as Their accredited Agent and Representative. On February 11, at Bombay, he records a quarrel with H. P. B. because he " flatly refused " to cancel a trip to Ceylon and stay to help her with the Theosophist. " A Master visited her on the 19th ": and as a result, on the 25th they came to an agreement to " reconstruct the T. S. on a different basis, putting the Brotherhood idea forward more prominently, and keeping the occultism more in the background . . . " The inference is obvious: Colonel Olcott had evidently made various objections to the new Constitution drawn up at Benares: we may therefore fairly conclude that in the form published in April it had been modified somewhat, because at the end are the words:—" Revised and ratified by the Society at Bombay, February 26 and 28, 1880." A word on H. P. B.'s real relation to the T. S. should here be said. It has been shown that she was specially trained for her work and told by her Master that she would have to form " a Society." In a private letter to Mr. W. Q. Judge, written about 1887, she says— " I am the Mother and the Creator of the Society; it has my magnetic fluid . . . Therefore I alone and to a degree, Olcott, can serve as a lightning conductor of Karma for it. I was asked whether I was willing, when at the point of dying—and I said, Yes—for it was the only means to save it. Therefore I consented to live -- which in my case means to suffer physically during twelve hours of the day — mentally twelve hours of the night, when I get rid of the physical shell . . ." Although given somewhat out of its proper place, I quote it here to show that whatever the "President-Founder " (as he always liked to be called) may have believed, and whatever subsequently became the commonly accepted opinion among members of the T. S. generally, H. P. B., and she alone, was its " Creator." She voluntarily accepted its Karma and, as we shall see, she " bore the cross " of its failures and mistakes. If, then, in 1887, H. P. B. alone could " save " the Society, the obvious inference is that when she finally did go in I89I, it was because the further efforts she made had been in vain, and that it had been proved impossible to carry the Society safely through into the 20th century, as its Founders, the Masters, had wished to do. As she herself wrote in I886 in the December number of the Path (the official organ of the American Section):— " Unless radical r forms in our American and European Societies are speedily resorted to, I fear that before long there will r main but one centre of Theosophical Societies and Theosophy in the whole world—namely, in India; on that country I call all the blessings of my heart. All my love and aspirations belong to my beloved brothers, the Sons of old Aryavarta - the Motherland of my MASTER." Needless to add, these " radical reforms" were not carried out; and H. P. B. once more raised her warning voice, in the first number of the English Vahan:-- " We say to-day to all:—' If you would really help the noble cause—you must do so now; for a few years more and your, as well as our, efforts will be in vain ' . . . We are in the very midst of the Egyptian darkness of Kali Yuga -- the ' Black Age,' the first 5,000 years of which— its dreary first cycle—is preparing to close on the world between 1897-8. Unless we can succeed in placing the T. S. before that date, on the safe side of the spiritual current, it will be swept away irretrievably into the Deep called ' Failures' and the cold waves of oblivion will close over its devoted head. Thus will have ingloriously perished the only association whose aims, and rules and original purposes answer in every particular and detail—if strictly carried out—to the innermost fundamental thought of every great Adept-Reformer— the beautiful dream of a Universal Brotherhood of Man." Alas ! these words proved only too tragically prophetic, and the T. S., but three short years after the death of its Founder, was rent in twain by mutual quarrels, jealousies and absolutely unbrotherly conduct. From that hour, and owing to this failure to carry out in practice the cardinal principle of Brotherhood, the T.S. " failed "— failed completely as a living, spiritual Force in the world. Subsequent history but conclusively proves the truth of my assertion: For had the Society successfully accomplished its mission in the world, the Great War would not have been possible, and the whole fate of humanity would have been changed. The fact that H. P. B. herself, not long before her death, foresaw, with prophetic insight, the future; foresaw the world-ruin and desolation which must inevitably follow upon the rejection of true Theosophy, is clearly proved by the fine concluding words of her leader in the May Number of Lucifer, 1889: " If Theosophy prevailing in the struggle, its all-embracing philosophy strikes deep root into the minds and hearts of men, if its doctrines of Reincarnation and Karma, in other words, of Hope and Responsibility, find a home in the lives of the new generation, then indeed will dawn a day of joy and gladness for all who now suffer and are outcast. For real Theosophy is Altruism, and we cannot repeat it too often. It is brotherly love, mutual help, unswerving devotion to Truth . . . But if not, then the storm will burst, and our boasted western civilization and enlightenment will sink in such a sea of horror that its parallel History has never yet recorded." And who is there among the more thoughtful and intelligent who will not see in the Great War, the Russian Revolution, and the ever-increasing intensity of the terrible struggle between Capital and Labour, symptoms of the coming cataclysm which H. P. B. here foretells. ==========end========================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:35:22 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1417 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980211003522.0146d650@mail.eden.com> At 01:03 AM 2/11/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Doss, Thoa and Members of TS, > >I wonder whether we should retreat our arguments from this TS until we >get into more theosophical topics. Actually we retreated couple months >ago but later we realized some of your member kept following our >arguments and put them back on this TS. I am pretty happy to retreat our >arguments for a while. How do you think, Thoa and other member of TS? > >I hope I am not disturbing the dissemination of your noble idea of >"Universal Brotherhood." > >Sorry for my messy English (English is my second language). > >Sincerely, > >Eiichi The contribution you are making is very unique and valuable. Each one of us have our specific areas of interest and we tend to pursue them. The issue that I raised relates to the primary object of TS. When TS is presented to the new comers, it is my humble opinion, that the organization should present a very simple unambiguous message clearly stating the mission of TS. Over the last 100 years, the TS in every part of the world has tried to pass on the msg of the importance of Universal Brotherhood. But the recent statements coming out in the official publications of TS in America are the ones which are causing concerns and has the great potential to attract people who may be mislead and join the TS. In this day of New Age many are interested in finding out hidden secrets of nature so that they can use them in their quest for health, wealth and happiness. Do we want this to happen? What is it going to do for the long term health of TS? These are the issues that need to be looked into. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:39:41 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Brotherhood first Message-ID: <199802111439.JAA02401@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> In response to various comments on this subject: Thoa is quite right that the Object of Universal Brotherhood is rather vague and meaningless unless translated into more concrete goals (I think that was the gist) of which learning about humanity's spiritual heritage and our own inner potentials are most important. But the question of *priority* is all important here. Is it accidental that the Founders chose to place the First Object first and the others behind? All Doss's quotes indicate otherwise, and there a hundred more along the same lines. *Why* should we engage in comparative study of science, religion and philosophy? *Why* should we explore innate human potential and the hidden laws of the universe? The Second and Third Objects are both *instrumental*, *practical*, and therefore lower-order in comparison to the First. My opinion is that we should do these things in order to enrich the spiritual life of humanity by better understanding what we are and what our spiritual heritage means. And the ultimate objective behind that enrichment is to bring people together through promoting understanding of all the things that unite us. I.e., creating a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of humanity. When you ask why we should do that, there's no answer. It's either self-evident or it's not. The First Object cannot be treated as instrumental toward some other goal; it's a higher-order objective than the other two by its very nature. I can only say that Brenda, if that's who it was that insisted that the Mahachohan's letter saying a "nucleus of *the* Universal Brotherhood" contradicts everything else in the Theosophical literature about the First Object, is wrong, wrong, wrong. She seems to extract from this single article the idea that the First Object really means what Algeo makes the Third mean-- that the TS is supposed to be a sect worshipping and serving the Masters, believing itself to be somehow a spiritual elite as a result, and not particularly concerned with humanity at large except as an afterthought. Moreover, when they talk about serving the Masters or elders, I get the distinct impression their focus is not on the general category of all humans who are spiritually advanced in understanding, but rather serving the specific group of Masters of HPB named in Theosophical literature. They would be horrified at becoming the objects of such devotion; the 1900 K.H. letter is quite eloquent to that effect. (Not assuming its genuineness here, I still offer it as *possible* evidence of how HPB's teachers would regard the cultic direction the TS took under Annie Besant which is so clearly reflected in Algeo's revision of the Objects.) The most powerful statement contradicting any such view is the Original Programme manuscript. I don't have it at hand but can paraphrase. HPB says that the Founders were never told by the Masters exactly what they should do in practical terms, just given general guidelines. But they were very explicitly told what the TS should *never* be. Which is a sect like many others which regard themselves as special, set apart, in possession of a body of truth that makes them an elite. Moreover she adds that any dogmatic view of the Masters, or even belief in them, "had to be checked from the start." Yet now we have a high official of the TS informing us that the *real* first objective is to create a group who by studying the "Ancient Wisdom" (by which he means not the whole spiritual heritage of humanity but the set of doctrines found in books published by the TS) prepare themselves to be instruments of the very Masters whose existence was explicitly repudiated as a doctrine of the Society. He is essentially stating the objective of the *ES* and imposing that on the 99% of TS members who are not ES members. This is every bit as serious as Doss says it is, and constitutes a hijacking of the TS by the very forces HPB and Olcott warned against over and over. I'll post some quotes to this effect tomorrow. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:49:29 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1417 Message-ID: <01ITG6L124QI91X3Z0@InfoAve.Net> ---------- > From: tosaki > To: Multiple recipients of list > I wonder whether we should retreat our arguments from this TS until we > get into more theosophical topics. Actually we retreated couple months > ago but later we realized some of your member kept following our > arguments and put them back on this TS. I am pretty happy to retreat our > arguments for a while. How do you think, ... please feel free to continue them here. I am sure there are alot of people (myself e.g.) who enjoy the topic. > I hope I am not disturbing the dissemination of your noble idea of > "Universal Brotherhood." actually, your presence here is beneficial and helps actualize the concept :-) > > Sorry for my messy English (English is my second language). > your english is pretty good. (My Japanese consists of a sheet of paper containing common GO-related words to help me decipher various books I have on Joseki etc.) peace john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:44:03 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: "Theosophy and the Internet" Presentation Message-ID: <199802111938.NAA18457@proteus.imagiware.com> I'm writing about my "Theosophy and the Internet" presentation that I made at the Krotona School, Ojai, California at the end of January. First, I'd like to thank everyone that offered suggestions and information for use in the program. The program was broken down into four one-hour segments. The first hour was on what the Internet was in general terms, and what computer equipment and software would be needed to access it. The second hour was on the Web and Web browsers, and involved visiting various useful sites including news, weather, stock information, movies, finding out-of-print books, locating information on people, etc. The third hour dealt with other Internet features, including pagers, email, online radio and realaudio, news groups, and search engines. The final hour brought in Theosophy and the spiritual, and dealt with theosophical sites, mailing lists, online books, and the benefits of writing and communicating on the Internet. It was a rainy day, but still 20 people came. I had rented a good Proxima LCD projector, so the entire group saw what I was doing on my computer, which I also brought up. I attempted to involve the group with what we looked for and did. We found apartments for rent in Ojai, got an out-of-print book for Joy Mills, looked up the famous Internet "dancing baby", noted when the movie "Titanic" was showing that day in nearby theaters, paged Jerry Hejka-Ekins, read a few theos-l and theos-talk messages that had come up, made a real-audio recording of Richard Hiltner talking about the difference between Inner and Outer Rounds, and did a query against a beta version of an online THE SECRET DOCTRINE. The general impression made was, I think, good, and people went away with a more positive attitude towards the Internet and its usefulness in both their personal lives and as a tool for spiritual work. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:22:02 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Response to Eiichi Message-ID: >Dear Doss, Thoa and Members of TS, > >This is Eiichi Tosaki. I am the one of them who are using this TS to >gather authentic knowledge about Theosophy for my 'personal goals' and >'scholarship'. I am writing PhD dissertation concerning a Dutch artist >Piet Mondrian, who was a theosophist and whose art was deeply influenced >by being a lifetime theosophist. Hi Eiichi, As I said, people follow the path in myriad ways. If we all only do the obvious service work, we wouldn't have the richness in contribution from scientists, artists, writers, philosophers, etc. It's too easy to judge the obvious. We need to look at the whole picture. This is not to deny the importance of service. >linking will be a discovery in the context of art history. I (and Thoa) >will be a first discoverer. But honestly I do not care. I feel famous!!! :o) >The fact that I am writing a dissertation in art history to get a degree >and hopefully to get a job concerning this area, does not kill my desire >to disseminate and share my ideas with public. I had not gotten a time >enough to deepen my idea about art until starting the PhD candidature in >Australia. I quit my comparatively lucrative job in Japan for getting >this opportunity. I find this is a noble thing. Definitely thinking of >art through theosophy has enriched my understanding of art and >philosophy. I appreciate theosophists and members of this TS for this. You are doing the work and sharing with the Brotherhood of Mankind. Those who do not understand that ideas and art can greatly help in the evolution of mankind are ignorant. >To me writing about Mondrian especially in the context of theosophy and >the philosophy in this concern occurs in the aura of esoteric atmosphere >of Hinduism or Yoga and Theosophy (actually I first got the idea of >writing about 'Mondrian and Rhythm' while I was meditating on the rock >in the mountainous place called Madovan (maybe wrong spelling) in India, >which I visited to attend the Spiritual University of Raga Yoga sect. It >was a kind of a sacred inspiration to me). I hope in the future I'd like >to publish my dissertation and art historians will start to think about >the linkage between Western Modern Art and Hinduism (and Theosophy) more >seriously. This trend nobody can stop since the more deeply you meditate >about the spirituality in art, the more inevitably you encounter the >Hindu or esoteric doctrine. Who is the first discoverer of this does not >matter. Even out of the context of the esoteric atmosphere, your work would have still been valid. There have been many concepts seemingly unrelated to the esoteric that have enriched the human evolution. In my mind, these seemingly unrelated events are also mystical in nature, if one would look closely at it. >Arguments between Thoa and I are now hitting the bedrock of Hegelian >logicalism, which sounds too much scholastic and dry. However, this, I >believer, is not the hardest part. Hardest part will come later: >Mondrian (or Western abstract artists in this century) and Hinduism. >When we start to hit another bedrock of this, we may seek for the help >from the other knowledgeable TS members. You know, Eiichi, theosophy's first leader, Helena Blavatsky, used many of the Hegelian ideas in her Secret Doctrine books. >I wonder whether we should retreat our arguments from this TS until we >get into more theosophical topics. Actually we retreated couple months >ago but later we realized some of your member kept following our >arguments and put them back on this TS. I am pretty happy to retreat our >arguments for a while. How do you think, Thoa and other member of TS? Don't retreat. You never know who is listening with some great ideas. When you withdraw from others, all you get in response is yourself. When you share, you never know what you'll get back. Richness comes back a thousand folds in sharing, even if you are only sharing in words. >I hope I am not disturbing the dissemination of your noble idea of >"Universal Brotherhood." Idea sounds noble. Noble conduct is much harder to do because of the challenge of reality. Noble ideas put to the test needs to change and adjust. You are not disturbing anything, Eiichi. >Sorry for my messy English (English is my second language). I wish I could write as well in my birth language, which is Vietnamese. As I said in my private post, I will respond to you. Currently, I am relying on the feeling of brotherhood among theosophists for my rude posting in and disappearing for a while. Something would have to really light me on fire to make me wield my pen, forget what I was supposed to be doing, and write, write. Forgive me, please... Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:55:14 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1417 Message-ID: <$aIO$GACal40Ew+C@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <34E14F6E.1498@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au>, tosaki writes >I hope I am not disturbing the dissemination of your noble idea of >"Universal Brotherhood." Certainly not - from a genuine theosophical point of view it is a noble idea as worthy of re-examination as any other! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:00:47 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Brotherhood first Message-ID: <5KrPLKAPfl40Ewet@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199802111439.JAA02401@vlinsvr.vsla.edu>, K. Paul Johnson writes >He is >essentially stating the objective of the *ES* and imposing that >on the 99% of TS members who are not ES members. > >This is every bit as serious as Doss says it is, and constitutes >a hijacking of the TS by the very forces HPB and Olcott warned >against over and over. I'll post some quotes to this effect >tomorrow. Looking forward to this! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:37:43 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Response to Eiichi or "Brotherhood, Smotherhood" Message-ID: <34E2B485.6DD9@withoutwalls.com> >> Eichi wrote: >> Dear Doss, Thoa and Members of TS, >> >> I wonder whether we should retreat our arguments from this TS until we >> get into more theosophical topics. Eiichi, If anybody really obstinately gives you flack about this, just tell them frankly where to stick the "Secret Doctrine." All this pompous "Brotherhood" junk can easily get carried to the snottiest of extremes. "Brotherhood" isn't worth a damn if you aren't willing to "accept the least of these my brethren." Anything else, is just obnoxious posturing. Don't be fooled. > John Mead wrote: > > But the recent statements coming out in the official publications of TS in > America are the ones which are causing concerns and have the greatest potential > to attract people who may be mislead and join the TS. In this day of New > Age many are interested in finding out hidden secrets of nature so that > they can use them in their quest for health, wealth and happiness. Do we > want this to happen? What is it going to do for the long term health of TS? > These are the issues that need to be looked into. For God's sake, how stable are we? Are we really floundering around, blown by the winds of every disparate opinion to fear and doubt or do we have the experience of BEING to ground us? "People" are at every conceivable level of understanding. If we can't receive them with open arms and deal with them where they are, then we're not ready to be their brothers and sisters. A big part of true human "brotherhood" is being able to stand together on the line and appreciate things as they are: both good and bad, similar and different, known and unknown. It's the lack of tolerance and mutual acceptance that has caused all of the wars and misunderstandings up 'til now. You have to be willing to admit to being a regular working schlep, peon human being, along with everybody else, in order to be able to really be there for someone. You have to be willing to admit "all the same pain and lies everybody knows" to be of any real service through the heart. It's OK to be a person. It's OK to get a little muddy. It's not the end of the world. Arrogance is just a consequence of the fear of opening to be human. > Thoa wrote: > > Hi Eiichi, > > As I said, people follow the path in myriad ways. If we all only do the > obvious service work, we wouldn't have the richness in contribution from > scientists, artists, writers, philosophers, etc. It's too easy to judge > the obvious. We need to look at the whole picture. This is not to deny > the importance of service. It's ludicrous to expect people to be without self interest. It's the defining mode of human existence. Let's try to understand. What often looks like self involvement can actually be beneficial to humanity in the long run. It's OK to be human. From the personal perspective you can't rightly judge one way or the other. We really need to lighten up. There is a lot of unconscious fear and self hatred masquerading as underlying disdain for humanity in this so-called "spirituality." It's too easy to puff up. It's a lot harder to bow low. People will be people. If you can't accept or understand that, then you're not ready to be of much service. > >> linking will be a discovery in the context of art history. I (and Thoa) >> will be a first discoverer. But honestly I do not care. > > I feel famous!!! :o) Eiichi, will you please share your dissertation with us when it's ready? >> The fact that I am writing a dissertation in art history to get a degree >> and hopefully to get a job concerning this area, does not kill my desire >> to disseminate and share my ideas with the public. I had not gotten time >> enough to deepen my idea about art until starting the PhD candidature in >> Australia. I quit my comparatively lucrative job in Japan to get >> this opportunity. I find this is a noble thing. Definitely thinking of >> art through theosophy has enriched my understanding of art and >> philosophy. I appreciate theosophists and members of this TS for this. You have opened our eyes to a depth of understanding and inquiry few have ever been willing to make. The seriousness of your purpose and the sincerity of your appreciation shed new light on a valuable, yet obscure phenomenon in 20th century Modernism. Mondrian's quest for a unifying vision in his intention and practice opens doors for all those who are willing to pursue his strategy of access and explore the grammatical principles of his spiritual expression. You have my gratitude as an artist. It is with just such intense personal commitment and effort that progress is made by which all may benefit. Your exemplary nature and dedication are an inspiration to all. Can an impulse to share real understanding be anything less than selfless? > You are doing the work and sharing with the Brotherhood of Mankind. Those > who do not understand that ideas and art can greatly help in the evolution > of mankind are ignorant. The power of art to move people is largely unconscious. Let our best intentions be towards the noble, however we understand it, and let the rest aid to illumine our daily way. >> To me writing about Mondrian especially in the context of theosophy and >> philosophy in this concern occurs in the aura of the esoteric atmosphere >> of Hinduism, Yoga and Theosophy (actually I first got the idea of >> writing about 'Mondrian and Rhythm' while I was meditating on the rock >> in the mountainous place called Madovan (maybe wrong spelling) in India, >> which I visited to attend the Spiritual University of Raga Yoga sect. It >> was a kind of a sacred inspiration to me). Say "Thank You." A trail blazed in the wilderness is soon lost to all if no one else traverses it. Your constitution is in harmony with the nobility of his effort. >> I hope in the future I'd like >> to publish my dissertation and art historians will start to think about >> the link between Western Modern Art and Hinduism (and Theosophy) more >> seriously. This trend nobody can stop since the more deeply you meditate >> on the spirituality in art, the more inevitably you encounter the >> Hindu or esoteric doctrine. Who is the first discoverer of this does not >> matter. "There is only ever one discoverer. And all those discoveries, you will have to make again." > Even out of the context of esoteric atmosphere, your work would have > still been valid. There have been many concepts, seemingly unrelated to the > esoteric, that have enriched human evolution. In my mind, these > seemingly unrelated events are also mystical in nature, if one would look > closely at it. The ordinary is the extraordinary. >> Arguments between Thoa and I are now hitting the bedrock of Hegelian >> logic, which sounds very scholastic and dry. However, this, I >> believe, is not the hardest part. The hardest part will come later: >> Mondrian (or Western abstract artists in this century) and Hinduism. >> When we start to hit this bedrock, we may seek for the help >> from other knowledgeable TS members. That would be an interesting discussion. > You know, Eiichi, theosophy's first leader, Helena Blavatsky, used many of > the Hegelian ideas in her Secret Doctrine books. > >> I wonder whether we should retreat our arguments from this TS until we >> get into more theosophical topics. Actually we retreated a couple of months >> ago but later realized some of the members kept following our >> argument and put them back on the list. I am pretty happy to retreat our >> arguments for a while. What do you think, Thoa and other member of TS? > > Don't retreat. You never know who is listening with some great ideas. > When you withdraw from others, all you get in response is yourself. When > you share, you never know what you'll get back. Richness comes back a > thousand fold in sharing, even if you are only sharing words. I agree. The level of your discussion has been sophisticated and incisive. There aren't many people who are willing to discuss art in such a sincere way, let alone a spiritual context. If more people could catch a glimpse of the depth of serious creative inquiry, perhaps new art would emerge that would further the frontiers of our common experience. I would love, for example, to add to the general discussion, an assessment of the art of Paul Klee, another early modernist who, along with Kandinsky, deeply tapped the well springs of Creative Mystery and was self possessed enough to write about it for both pedagogy and posterity. >> I hope I am not disturbing the dissemination of your noble idea of >> "Universal Brotherhood." "Brotherhood" (universal or otherwise) depends on a respectful mutual discourse between individual "brothers" and "sisters." You Eiichi, are honored and most welcomed here. Sincerely, Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:13:08 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Brotherhood first Message-ID: <34E32DA4.AE65251@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > *Why* should we engage in comparative study of science, religion > and philosophy? *Why* should we explore innate human potential > and the hidden laws of the universe? The Second and Third > Objects are both *instrumental*, *practical*, and therefore > lower-order in comparison to the First. My opinion is that we > should do these things in order to enrich the spiritual life of > humanity by better understanding what we are and what our > spiritual heritage means. My opinion differs mostly in terms of emphasis; I believe that the second two objects are a mechanism for making it known to the rest of the world that there is, in fact, a Brotherhood of Humanity. If a comparative study of science, religion and philosophy are made, the univestigated laws of nature and the powers latent in humanity are investigated, the Brotherhood of Humanity becomes and inevitable conclusion. Annie Besant (who wasn't ENTIRELY evil) stated that for membership in the Theosophical Society, one needs only believe in the Brotherhood of Humanity, and that we must always remember that those who don't believe in it are STILL our brothers. > And the ultimate objective behind that > enrichment is to bring people together through promoting > understanding of all the things that unite us. I.e., creating a > nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of humanity. Agree 100%. > Theosophical literature. They would be horrified at becoming the > objects of such devotion; the 1900 K.H. letter is quite eloquent > to that effect. (Not assuming its genuineness here, I still > offer it as *possible* evidence of how HPB's teachers would > regard the cultic direction the TS took under Annie Besant which > is so clearly reflected in Algeo's revision of the Objects.) Keeping in my policy not to quote from any private communications, all I can say is that, from what I have been told, it is the official position of the TS that the letter is genuine (and therefore binding). I must reserve judgement myself on what John Algeo wrote, as I did not read the full article, and therefore am not aware of the context in which it was stated. > body of truth that makes them an elite. Moreover she adds that > any dogmatic view of the Masters, or even belief in them, "had to > be checked from the start." I know of at least one Arcane School member who is rather annoyed at the custom at the New York Lodge for speakers talking about the Mahatmas to point out that they may or may not have existed, and if they existed, they may or may not have been what they said they were. I have been told, however, that the New York Lodge is an unusual Lodge. > Yet now we have a high official of > the TS informing us that the *real* first objective is to create > a group who by studying the "Ancient Wisdom" (by which he means > not the whole spiritual heritage of humanity but the set of > doctrines found in books published by the TS) Now, at the risk of my being called a mindless running dog for the TS establishment for daring to ask this question (thankfully, not by you), what evidence do you have about what John Algeo really means when he says "Ancient Wisdom?" Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:29:02 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Etreme Brotherhood Message-ID: <34E3315E.431E25FB@sprynet.com> Just a little story to put some things in perspective: A rabbi and a cantor were at the altar of a synagogue, while a janitor was cleaning in the corner. Suddenly, the rabbi was overtaken by a powerful religious urge, looked up, spread his arms out, and said, "God, you are so great, and so powerful! Next to you, I am nothing!" Inspired by his religious fervor, the cantor also looked up, and said, "God, next to you, I, too am nothing!" The janitor, witnessing this, got caught up, raised his eyes heavenward, and exclaimed, "I, too am nothing next to you!" At which point the rabbi turned to the cantor, and said, "Look who thinks he's nonthing!" Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:33:06 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Re: "Brotherhood, Smotherhood" Message-ID: <01ITHSTMUB6M91XEKI@InfoAve.Net> ---------- > From: Mark Kusek > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Response to Eiichi or "Brotherhood, Smotherhood" > Date: Thursday, February 12, 1998 3:36 AM > > > John Mead wrote: > > > > But the recent statements coming out in the official publications of TS in > > America are the ones which are causing concerns and have the greatest potential > > to attract people who may be mislead and join the TS. In this day of New > > Age many are interested in finding out hidden secrets of nature so that > > they can use them in their quest for health, wealth and happiness. Do we > > want this to happen? What is it going to do for the long term health of TS? > > These are the issues that need to be looked into. > Hmmmmm I never wrote the above..... My actual concern is that the TSA is becoming much more like the ES. Basically a specific religion worshiping some specific group of adepts with a specific dogma and required way of life.... One which inherently has a hierarchical view of even its own members! One which discriminates between specific indvidual members according to their particular religious beliefs or (even worse) by some perceived notion of 'level of adept-hood'. If you have not seen this type of behaviour coming out from TSA national then you are looking through glasses fogged by your desire to *avoid* any thought which may be labeled as 'negative'. Doss has made very healthy, positive, observations. What makes them seem negative is due to the fictional belief that *all* critical analysis is inherently negative and creates bad 'vibes'. If you get bad 'vibes' over these discussions it is probably because you feel you have to defend the other side. (? my guess). The majority of theosophists seem to find it easier to ignore bad ideas and positions rather than correct them. The TSA leaders often use phrases like "now, don't be negative!" as a way to guilt-trip an individual into silence. That attitude actually *is* a very negative and damaging thought form. (also - Thou shall not criticize thy church, or thy will be judged a heretic!) I think this discussion is very positive. It is very healthy. It gives to me a feeling of renewal and hope to see theosophists questioning the decisions of their elected servants. john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:15:53 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: Doss: >The mission of TS should be presented in very simple clear cut unambiguous >terms that even a child can understand. Theosophy is not meant to be for >the scholarly elite only, it was meant for everyone. Has it reached the >masses? What does the facts say in this regard? Dear Doss, I understand your concern regarding theosophy reaching the masses. I also consider that to be important. Theos-l had a discussion regarding this a year ago. To me, the problem is not the order of the objectives. I don't think changing the order would make much difference. Even the layman would love to learn of the mysteries. I think the most effective action is making areas of communication accessible to the masses. This could be done by distributing books geared toward the layman, perhaps books with lots of pictures and easy to understand writing. A good example of that would be the series of books on the esoteric by Thames and Hudson. Their books are large, with writing that would not insult the intelligence, yet would not be tedious for the layman, and is 50% pictures. This, I think, would be appealing even to a child. Perhaps someone with a good knowledge of the important theosophical works would be willing to simplify them and portray the ideas pictorially. This someone would also have to have clear and friendly communication skills. This condensing will not insult the original works. Think of these books as a bridge to deeper knowledge. If communication is done via the internet, the discussions should also allow for simple and naive inquiries, and even crassness. The response should be tolerant, kind, helpful, and related to the tone of the writer. The layman could be uneducated or could be working on a doctorate. Respond in a way that the questioner would understand, but do not insult the intelligence of the writer. And, my personal preference, a few jokes and poetry makes the environment more pleasant. Doss, consider that the "scholarly elite" were laymen who have crossed the first bridge and wants to continue crossing more bridges. There are places for them, too. The only thing is that, as people further in their search, they should not forget to walk back to the first bridge once in a while and assist the new ones over. The best way to reach people is through communication and acceptance. Accept them where they are at, and work with them from their strength. If you want to push people away, then tell them that they are not good enough where they are, and that they should be ashamed of themselves. Why not give constructive ideas without pinpointing blames, or blanket categorizing people? You can influence friends, but you can't influence enemies. Actually, you can influence your enemies, but that would be the strategy of war. Doss, since you follow ahimsa, I don't think you want to do that. :o) Make friends first, see what they are about, let them know what you are about, let them see what you are passionate about, and positively glow about your passion. In that way, you can be persuasive and charismatic. Believe me, I know it works. When people like you, they are more than willing to do whatever they can for you. This is from my personal observation from former workplaces, and from extracurricular activities. I am not the type to take advantage of it, perhaps that is a part of it. I did notice that when I make a suggestion of change because I cared, people are quick to respond. And sometimes people goes above and beyond my request. All this surprised me. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:40:32 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Great Gratitude Message-ID: Here is something that Bruce from theos-world was kind enough to send me. I thought you all might enjoy this. The writer is the pseudonym Mr. B.Hive. *********************** GREAT GRATITUDE TODAY is the day you come to a realisation of what you have got. Not what you have had, as is usually the perspective, nor what you should choose for yourself, but rather what of today and this moment you have. The expression 'count your blessings' is to formally set in order, consciously acknowledging that which you have. It may help to put them in writing and make of a long list which may be returned to again and again and added to as more revelations spring to mind. Often we are so busy day to day, that we have neglected to truly be thankful, and also neglected those finest resources that we do hold, because we have not been mindful of them or of the opportunities that we already possess. In the game of chess one is wise to be defensive, but shall truly manoeuvre correctly by ascertaining the strengths and the stronghold thereby. If our personal view is so concentrated upon what we believe to be our weaknesses, then how shall we develop that which is more worthy of our consideration? We pay much too much attention to the minor faults and disregard the major; whilst forgetting to be forever thankful to the Father for the gifts already given. One might believe at first that the list will be small indeed. However, in careful analysis one will find in so many differing ways, that the list is truly so long that it could never be completed. However attempt is fruitful. Frankly speaking, we have difficulty in reviewing consciously much which relates directly to ourselves. And this in exercise is a fine beginning to such discipline, whilst also is preparatory to the receiving of greater gifts. And what exactly do we extract our joy in life from? This being very individual and so personal to each and every one. When in company with others, we are drawn to impressions which overall are so set, that we speculate upon items and conditions that do not necessarily bring much joy to us at all. One can see a fervour being worked up amongst a group with excited chatter and much stimulation. But rarely do people share that which is delicately important to them personally, that which speaks to and from the heart and its quiet happinesses. Troubles and grumblings are quick to arise when this subject is broached from the first. This uprising does quash and negate the motivations which enable one to carry through with this practice. What may firstly come to mind is rather the guilt that one has not before 'counted the blessings' and one might openly exclaim, "Oh, I know that I should be doing this", and then feel immediately depressed at the thought. Interesting, isn't it? Or perhaps the answer might be, "Oh, but I do that already!", without reflecting as to whether one can really have done this enough, if in fact the blessings have been itemised at all. It is a little like counting one's money, only far better. There is meagre satisfaction in counting money and checking to see if it is all there. For if one has more than enough, it becomes merely an act of counting, and if there is a deficiency it becomes more of a worry, because of that shortage. To some it appears as a painful and arduous task. But if we are to receive many gifts in our life, we are firstly to know and use what we have and secondly to know of our gratitude for them. By actively doing this our entire outlook does brighten, and a certain confidence develops within the man, who then stands firmer in the world. Quite often the remedy to our troubles is there before us and yet unseen. We are to refine our attitudes and begin in small measures, seemingly, and find that the results are astounding in respect to future changes which will be effected, by the enhancement of our personal perspectives. Also by this, we shall come to know that which we truly respect and savour in our lives - our primary values, therefore our primary goals. First purpose and first desires. And commit all others to their respective places of importance, with thus a clearer perspective, than from the outset. It is damaging to one's health, inner health of soul and outer personal condition, to maintain a focus upon certain deficiencies or longings which are unreconcilable. It is one thing to hold goals and work for them in a productive and steady enduring manner, but it is quite different to go about reprimanding, nay cursing, ourselves and our situations. One may be greatly assisted in the beginning, by actually vocalising those blessings, loudly pronouncing in detail to oneself or to another. This is not to suggest boasting of course, but to explain the concept of the practice of grateful acknowledgment and then to take turns in such conversation, expressing as many blessings as one can bring forth. Such an interplay will certainly uplift the mood of the party and also be far more productive than many an alternative form of conversation! Beware of opinions and comparisons however! This is not the intent of the procedure. We must acknowledge that this is very subjective and not open to conjecture, if it is indeed honest in reproduction. Also, one may never truly be convinced when bringing to mind our treasured happinesses, this is not the point. The point is the stimulation in the revealing and the revelation of overwhelming gratitude which weeps from such vital stimulation. The very fluids of the spiritual life pour from such reverential thankfulness. There may be two types of ecstasy experienced. One is where one consciously reaches levels of passion and presumes this to be ecstasy in the essential form. The other is the essential substance, undiluted and pure from passion - and this is supreme gratitude. The former comes by the enhanced realisation at the very apex of one's experience of that which is very personal and sought for and given over to sublime expression of this. The latter, which may only be reached by ways extraneous to subjective desire, is the conscious realization of the spirit's grand gratitude to the heavens and the heavenly Father, to creation, to being, for existence. It is existence and existence perfected, through a being who has finally acknowledged most perfectly, through this: the revelation of great and everlasting gratitude. This is ecstasy, in her finest form. This is what was meant by compassion being the complete form of passion. It is passion which has 'gone the full round' so to speak, and fulfilled itself outside of itself. Compassion, the complete passion, the passions completed, is the consequence as distilled thereby, which speaks to us of that which is outside from our personal strivings, needs, desires and experiences, and seeks to commune with the great and holy Spirit which is, and is through us and all. And the divinity so inspired has one primary experience in the realisation and acknowledgment of God the Father and of divine creation; that being the essential and overwhelming great gratitude. One can almost feel it now. So close. That we might be. That we are now. That we shall endure. That we may be sustained. To that which sustains. To that which infills our very being. That our senses are so infilled. That our spirit and our substance is renewed. That so much is afforded; whilst we in humility, gaze out at the vastness of all of creation. . . and say, thank you. b.hive From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:24:07 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Original Programme Message-ID: <199802122024.PAA18538@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Here are the crucial passages from HPB about the priority of brotherhood and the need to avoid sectarianism about the Masters, from an unpublished ms., The Original Programme of the Theosophical Society: In order to leave no room for equivocation, the members of the T.S. have to be reminded of the origin of the Society in 1875. Sent to the U.S. of America in 1873 for the purpose of organizing a group of workers on a psychic plane, two years later the writer received orders from her Master and Teacher to form the nucleus of a regular Society whose objects were broadly stated as follows: 1. Universal Brotherhood; 2. No distinction to be made by the member between races, creeds, or social positions, but every member had to be judged and dealt by on his personal merits; 3. To study the philosophies of the East-- those of India chiefly, presenting them gradually to the public in various works that would interpret exoteric religions in the light of esoteric teachings; 4. To oppose materialism and theological dogmatism in every possible way, by demonstrating the existence of occult forces unknown to science, in nature, and the presence of psychic and spiritual powers in man... Such was the programme in its broad features. The two chief Founders were not told what they had to do, how they had to bring about and quicken the growth of the Society...But if the two Founders were not told *what they had to do,* they were distinctly instructed about *what they should never do,* what they had to avoid, and what the Society should never become. Church organizations, Christian and Spiritual sects were shown as the future contrasts to our Society. To make it clearer: (1) The Founders had to exercise all their influence *to oppose selfishness of any kind*, by insisting upon sincere, fraternal feelings among the Memberrs-- at least outwardly; working for it to bring about a spirit of unity and harmony, the great diversity of creeds notwithstanding; expecting and demanding from the Fellows, a great mutual toleration and charity for each other's shortcomings; mutual help in the research of truths in every doman-- moral or physical-- and even, in daily life. (2) They had to oppose in the strongest manner possible anything approaching *dogmatic faith and fanaticism*-- belief in the *infallibility* of the Masters, or even in the very existence of our invisible Teachers, having to be checked from the first. On the other hand, as a great respect for the private views and creeds of every member was demanded, any Fellow criticizing the faith or belief of another Fellow, hurting his feelings, or showing a reprehensible self-assertion, unasked (mutual friendly advices were a duty unless declined)-- such a member incurred expulsion. The greatest spirit of free research untrammeled by anyone or anything, had to be encouraged. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:37:56 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Reading Algeo Message-ID: <199802122037.PAA20017@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Bart asks how I know that when John Algeo says "the Ancient Wisdom" he means the doctrines of Blavatskian Theosophy rather than something more generic. To that might be added the question of how I know that when Algeo says "the elders" he means not spiritually advanced beings in general but the Masters of Theosophical literature in particular. Mainly, it's because the rhetoric in the TS for the last 90 years or so has been in this direction and Algeo is clearly aligning himself with that elitist tradition. This is dicey, because using ambiguous terms he leaves himself plausible deniability. But I can tell that his overall focus is exclusive rather than inclusive from my own personal experience and that of a couple dozen other people who have been made to feel like expendable or "fringe Theosophist" members because we aren't in doctrinal lockstep with the ES version of Theosophy. More details later. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:35:57 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980212143557.009a5820@mail.eden.com> Dear Thoa: All you have mentioned is true. But here we are having a situation which goes to the root of the future of TSA. My concern about putting Brotherhood/Sisterhood/Siblinghood first and foremost is not out of my imagination. It came about as a result of some of the messages that AP Sinnett got from Mahatma KH and which were reiterated and reemphasized by HPB when Sinnett harped on putting emphasis on mysteries and phenomenon as the best way to further Theosophy to the world. In this context he was repeatedly told that Brotherhood is the key and even if it is just a dream, at least a noble one. I will try to get some of the material on this issue from the ML to APS later today when I have some time. Also if there has been a policy change in de-emphasizing Brotherhood as a matter of official policy, then membership and public should be told so (instead of taking an elitist hierarchical view.) When we see membership dwindling and lodges and centers on the decline, the issue of the primary policies/objects of TS becomes very important and can be decisive how far the decline can take place before the TSA itself is shutdown (as a matter of fact in the by-laws, a provision has been made to fold all the assets into the TIT Trust which does not have to answer anyone -- Don't we all remember what happened in the Krishnamurti Trusts until the California Attorney General had to sue the Trustees). mkr At 02:24 PM 2/12/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Doss: >>The mission of TS should be presented in very simple clear cut unambiguous >>terms that even a child can understand. Theosophy is not meant to be for >>the scholarly elite only, it was meant for everyone. Has it reached the >>masses? What does the facts say in this regard? > >Dear Doss, > >I understand your concern regarding theosophy reaching the masses. I also >consider that to be important. Theos-l had a discussion regarding this a >year ago. > >To me, the problem is not the order of the objectives. I don't think >changing the order would make much difference. Even the layman would love >to learn of the mysteries. I think the most effective action is making >areas of communication accessible to the masses. This could be done by >distributing books geared toward the layman, perhaps books with lots of >pictures and easy to understand writing. A good example of that would be >the series of books on the esoteric by Thames and Hudson. Their books are >large, with writing that would not insult the intelligence, yet would not >be tedious for the layman, and is 50% pictures. This, I think, would be >appealing even to a child. Perhaps someone with a good knowledge of the >important theosophical works would be willing to simplify them and portray >the ideas pictorially. This someone would also have to have clear and >friendly communication skills. This condensing will not insult the >original works. Think of these books as a bridge to deeper knowledge. > >If communication is done via the internet, the discussions should also >allow for simple and naive inquiries, and even crassness. The response >should be tolerant, kind, helpful, and related to the tone of the writer. >The layman could be uneducated or could be working on a doctorate. Respond >in a way that the questioner would understand, but do not insult the >intelligence of the writer. And, my personal preference, a few jokes and >poetry makes the environment more pleasant. > >Doss, consider that the "scholarly elite" were laymen who have crossed the >first bridge and wants to continue crossing more bridges. There are places >for them, too. The only thing is that, as people further in their search, >they should not forget to walk back to the first bridge once in a while and >assist the new ones over. > >The best way to reach people is through communication and acceptance. >Accept them where they are at, and work with them from their strength. If >you want to push people away, then tell them that they are not good enough >where they are, and that they should be ashamed of themselves. Why not >give constructive ideas without pinpointing blames, or blanket categorizing >people? You can influence friends, but you can't influence enemies. >Actually, you can influence your enemies, but that would be the strategy of >war. Doss, since you follow ahimsa, I don't think you want to do that. :o) >Make friends first, see what they are about, let them know what you are >about, let them see what you are passionate about, and positively glow >about your passion. In that way, you can be persuasive and charismatic. >Believe me, I know it works. When people like you, they are more than >willing to do whatever they can for you. This is from my personal >observation from former workplaces, and from extracurricular activities. I >am not the type to take advantage of it, perhaps that is a part of it. I >did notice that when I make a suggestion of change because I cared, people >are quick to respond. And sometimes people goes above and beyond my >request. All this surprised me. > >Thoa :o) > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:12:06 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Multiple meanings Message-ID: <199802122312.SAA06942@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> On further reflection about Bart's question, I think it's pretty obvious that "Theosophy" and "Masters" have multiple meanings, and are actually *used* intentionally with plural connotations and denotations. But which of the multiple meanings takes priority is the big question. We have different agendas operating within this realm of discourse, and people using these terms in ways that reflect power dynamics. Let me construct a simple example of a statement that will elicit agreement from me as well as the rankest fundamentalist Theosophist, with virtually no *real* agreement between us: "Theosophy is the wisdom of the Masters, and the purpose of the Theosophical Society is to promote its study." Now let's "unpack" that statement the way I would agree with it. Theosophy in its broadest sense is the wisdom that can be known through inner illumination, accessible to all humanity regardless of belief system. People throughout recorded history in every land have experienced the illumination or gnosis or enlightenment that is inherent in our spiritual potentiality; the purpose of the Theosophical Society is to promote the study of the finest fruits of the human spirit wherever they may be found. The kind of TS we would have if that was the meaning accepted by the leadership is quite different from what in fact exists. The way that statement would seem to be understood by the powers that be is: the system of teaching in the writings of H.P. Blavatsky (and a very narrowly defined set of "successors") was given to her intact by a specific international fraternity of Perfected Men whom she portrayed accurately in all respects. The purpose of the Theosophical Society is to promote these ideas and the claims about their origin found in HPB's writings, and all other activities are subsidiary to this. Daniel Caldwell's having been publicly embraced by John Algeo in recent issues of the Quest re: "core doctrines" is a mirror image of the way I was publicly attacked by him, and speaks volumes about where Algeo''s sentiments are in the matter of broad vs. narrow definitions of Theosophy and Masters. My guess is that the membership now, even after a third of the members have left in the last 10 years, would still split 70/30 in favor of the broader definitions of "Theosophy," "Masters," and the purpose of the Society. But that the present leadership would be virtually unanimous in favor of the narrower definitions. Furthermore I reckon 90% of the 2000 members who have left would go with the broader definition. Reminds me of the old poem by Edwin Markham: He drew a circle that shut me out-- heretic, rebel, a thing to flout. But Love and I had the wit to win; We drew a circle that took him in. I rejoined the American Section in hope that such a change of polarity can occur in the TSA. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:05:04 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes > I >did notice that when I make a suggestion of change because I cared, people >are quick to respond. And sometimes people goes above and beyond my >request. All this surprised me. A friend of mine many years ago, when working as a secretary, said in a bit of a temper to her bosses, "If you wanted this to go urgently, why couldn't you put a red blob or sticker on it or something!" A month later, all outgoing items were covered in various kinds of stickers and blobs covering all aspects of the rainbow, complete with an accompanying blob index. That's life :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:01:21 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >The only thing is that, as people further in their search, >they should not forget to walk back to the first bridge once in a while and >assist the new ones over. In genuine esoteric groups or schools, this is de facto law. When such groups become elitist, they always fold, sooner or later. If they carry on, they become fossilized, cease to be genuinely esoteric at all, attract critics and enemies, and their leaders become more interested in retaining power over their "followers". If any organisations spring to mind, it will come as no surprise to me. Oh, and there are - honestly - other organisations than the TS around who could be said to qualify. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:45:09 -0500 From: jim meier Subject: on the purpose of the TS(A) Message-ID: <199802130645_MC2-3326-29E0@compuserve.com> Recent posts have commented on the Objects, sub-groups within the TS, the intent of the Founders, the usefulness of the TS, etc., and I thought it interesting that this most recent re-hash of the thread started at the time of the full moon of Aquarius. Or at least, I was thinking about the energies of Aquarius and so have been reading this thread in that context. Aquarius (both this month and the next two millennia) is characterized by the spiritual capacity to love and to serve, to become inclusive and compassionate, and to share resources freely and fully in meeting recognized need. One of the contrasts with Piscean forces is the shift away from "authority," from dependence upon others for direction, and from rigid organizations. When we consider how our Society has changed over the past 100 years or so (changes which we all recognize), it is natural to ask if these reflect the wishes of the early Theosophists who got together for a specific purpose -- several, actually, as worded in the Society Objects (in whatever order one considers them). I wonder if these changes evidence that the TS was among the very best that Pisces had to offer, an organization that has accomplished truly amazing things in spreading the Ageless Wisdom, but an organization that is not easily adapting to the "New Age," (for want of a better term). What do "we" want the TS to do, to be? (This, as opposed to whatever we think the Founders wanted.) 100 members would probably give 100 answers, but here is mine: I think the TSA is a great "clearing house" for information. For young people and those beginning the esoteric spiritual search, especially, the TS offers the broadest and most comprehensive source of books and ideas available anywhere, offered without prejudice or pressure. My own "theosophical education" relied heavily on the lending library by mail, and it is for that reason that I have been a member for a very long time and will no doubt continue as a lifelong member of the TSA. As for the other Objects: it is my opinion (and only my opinion, here) that the TSA is not particularly useful; it is not focussed in any way or direction, and it is not likely to become focussed due to the internal bickering and crosspurposes of the various groups within it. This may be inevitable in an open an eclectic organization like ours, and especially so here in America where we have fractioned as a people into numerous special interests that now determine policy for the larger group. As an example, there was a thread here not long ago on Brotherhood that brought criticism of the very word itself, as some members think it is sexist and demeaning (their words, not mine). That we can't even agree on this fundamental IDEA of the Founders means, I think, that we will never agree on the means to achieve its manifestation. I would add, many (if not most) new members find sooner or later that other groups better serve the interests that first brought them to us. Membership figures of the TSA support this; we have an interesting mix of long-term members and newbies, without a growing membership. Each of us will have to answer for ourselves what we want our Society to be, and then we should work to make it the best possible expression. Speaking just for myself, the TSA is already all that it can be, given the current interests and controlling forces -- and that is a very useful organization to accomplish some things, but I would be surprised if "the Masters" were still looking to us as member of this Society to form a nucleus of Brotherhood. It seems to me that other groups are doing a much better job of that, and it seems reasonable that They would put energy where it does the most good, not where it used to be effective. Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:36:43 +1000 From: tosaki Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: <34E44C6A.39C4@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au> Dear Thoa, Mark, Doss, John, and other TS member, Now it is very clear for me to continue our argument here on this THEOS-L. All of you encouraged me to probe esoteric meaning of Western modern Art more into deeper roots. As long as there are some member positive to our trials, we will not retreat. I even feel honored to be listened to by the member of this THEOS-L. I really appreciate all your generosity and Universal Brotherhoodness. Thanks. Namaste, Eiichi From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:11:41 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >>The only thing is that, as people further in their search, >>they should not forget to walk back to the first bridge once in a while and >>assist the new ones over. > >In genuine esoteric groups or schools, this is de facto law. When such >groups become elitist, they always fold, sooner or later. If they carry on, >they become fossilized, cease to be genuinely esoteric at all, attract >critics and enemies, and their leaders become more interested in >retaining power over their "followers". If any organisations spring to >mind, it will come as no surprise to me. Oh, and there are - honestly - >other organisations than the TS around who could be said to qualify. > >Alan :-) If there is anyone speaking for the "other side," I would like to hear why the TS has become "elitist." Did they become elitist because they feel it is necessary, or did they become elitist despite themselves? Do they feel they are being "elitist?" Please clarify for this semi-newbee. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:10:56 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >> I >>did notice that when I make a suggestion of change because I cared, people >>are quick to respond. And sometimes people goes above and beyond my >>request. All this surprised me. > >A friend of mine many years ago, when working as a secretary, said in >a bit of a temper to her bosses, "If you wanted this to go urgently, why >couldn't you put a red blob or sticker on it or something!" > >A month later, all outgoing items were covered in various kinds of >stickers and blobs covering all aspects of the rainbow, complete with an >accompanying blob index. That's life :-) > >Alan If only that was the case with communication with the TS officers! A friend of mine just e-mailed me a bunch of asses. Remember emoticons, the smiley faces? Well, this is asscons. If I get frustrated enough with these talks, I'm going to e-mail the asscons to both theos-l and theos-talk. This is a real threat, you know. I'm already annoying enough with the amount of my e-mails today. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:11:18 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: Keith Fisher: >I am sure the President of TSA, John Algeo, is acutely aware of the >decreasing worldwide membership of the TS and would welcome any constructive >new ideas which would start to reverse this situation. Perhaps, instead of >criticism, the Board of Directors need input, feedback, and support for any >new approach it may take to promote theosophy in a light that would enthuse >more people to commit themselves to this high ideal of Brotherhood in this >age of materialism. > >Best wishes > >Keith Fisher >Perth Australia I agree with that. Haven't anyone heard of turning the other cheek? One idea: The officers of the TS have a direct chat session via computer. This is where Eldon's post regarding the instant e-mail system would come in handy. The announcement should be done well ahead of time so that those who would like to take part can have the time to prepare for it. Also, all theosophical discussion lists should be made aware of this event. I strongly believe that proper communication is one of the keys to resolving problems. Each side should be willing to keep the lines open, and each side should keep the accusation tone down. In modern psychology, the suggestion of proper communication would be like this: Side 1: Blah, blah, blah. Side 2: I hear you say blah, blah, blah. Do you mean blah, blah, blah? Side 1: Yes, I mean blah, blah, blah. Side 2: Okay, I understand your feeling of blah, blah, blah, but I yak, yak, yak. Etc., etc. :o) Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:14:13 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: >Dear Thoa: > >All you have mentioned is true. But here we are having a situation which >goes to the root of the future of TSA. > >My concern about putting Brotherhood/Sisterhood/Siblinghood first and >foremost is not out of my imagination. It came about as a result of some of >the messages that AP Sinnett got from Mahatma KH and which were reiterated >and reemphasized by HPB when Sinnett harped on putting emphasis on >mysteries and phenomenon as the best way to further Theosophy to the world. >In this context he was repeatedly told that Brotherhood is the key and even >if it is just a dream, at least a noble one. I will try to get some of the >material on this issue from the ML to APS later today when I have some time. > >Also if there has been a policy change in de-emphasizing Brotherhood as a >matter of official policy, then membership and public should be told so >(instead of taking an elitist hierarchical view.) > >When we see membership dwindling and lodges and centers on the decline, the >issue of the primary policies/objects of TS becomes very important and can >be decisive how far the decline can take place before the TSA itself is >shutdown (as a matter of fact in the by-laws, a provision has been made to >fold all the assets into the TIT Trust which does not have to answer anyone >-- Don't we all remember what happened in the Krishnamurti Trusts until the >California Attorney General had to sue the Trustees). > >mkr *************** *The term brotherhood to include man, woman, children, creatures and aliens.:o) Dear Doss, I now understand better what your concerns are. Your heart is in a good place. However, I do not think you expressed it very well in your statement to John Algeo. The problem is not who the TS will attract, but the focus of the TS. Your mentioning about "selfish" people only dilutes and confuses the issue. Worse still, it judges and accuses innocent people. Anyone who is interested in theosophical concepts, the mystery, and scholarship would be guilty under your description. I agree that an elitist point of view goes against everything that Brotherhood* stands for. Your accusing people of being selfish based on their interests also goes against what Brotherhood stands for. From several definitions posted, we see that Brotherhood also means tolerance for varying beliefs, tolerance for Theosophy and theosophy, assisting other Brothers on their paths, and includes the brothelhood of mankind. This also includes scholars, people in search of the mystical, etc. Intolerance for any would go against the idea of Brotherhood. Two wrongs don't make a right. Have your attempts to change things bring much fruit? If not, then maybe different avenues should be considered. It could start as small as changing the wording of your letters to people who could make a difference. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:13:27 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: "Brotherhood, Smotherhood" Message-ID: John Mead: >My actual concern is that the TSA is becoming much more like the ES. >Basically a specific religion worshiping some specific group of adepts with >a specific dogma and required way of life.... >One which inherently has a hierarchical view of even its own members! One >which discriminates between specific indvidual members according to their >particular religious beliefs or (even worse) by some perceived notion of >'level of adept-hood'. I agree that this is separating and goes against what t/Theosophy is about. >If you have not seen this type of behaviour coming out from TSA national >then you are looking through glasses fogged by your desire to *avoid* any >thought which may be labeled as 'negative'. Doss has made very healthy, >positive, observations. What makes them seem negative is due to the >fictional belief that *all* critical analysis is inherently negative and >creates bad 'vibes'. If you get bad 'vibes' over these discussions it is >probably because you feel you have to defend the other side. (? my guess). Until the "other side" has the chutzpah to speak up, it is good for someone to provide the opposing argument. In this way, we can get a clearer picture of the situation. >The majority of theosophists seem to find it easier to ignore bad ideas and >positions rather than correct them. The TSA leaders often use phrases like >"now, don't be negative!" as a way to guilt-trip an individual into >silence. That attitude actually *is* a very negative and damaging thought >form. (also - Thou shall not criticize thy church, or thy will be judged a >heretic!) We should also consider that negativity can also be destructive. Perhaps destructiveness can be a way of tearing down a structure so that we may rebuild. The T.S.A. is already quickly losing members, but this negativity is also preventing the T.S. from gaining any new members. With the advent of the internet, timid people are able to venture into territory that they have before been afraid to discover. Idealistic and wanting to share what's in their heart, they log onto a list, only to find bickering theosophists condemning their own organization. They cannot see that the bickering is due to the theosophists' love of their organization and a wish for change. From their newbee point of view, they see an environment not conducive to their growth. They couldn't care less about the politics and history. Realize that these newbees have only a tender amount of knowledge of theosophy, so tender that it could be easily squashed. Similar to what I asked Doss. I've been on this list for over a year now. I've heard the same arguments. Has this brought any positive changes? Is the negativity worth it? What is the gain, what is the loss? I agree with you that the lack of communication is also damaging. The "ignore the child" policy does not work! Not tending to the wound will only cause it to fester until the entity is destroyed. I encourage other theosophists to contribute to the conversation. If a theosophist feels that the conversation is too negative and will not be a party, then maybe that theosophist can contribute with positive comments. Silence can be a crime of acquiescence. >I think this discussion is very positive. It is very healthy. It gives to >me a feeling of renewal and hope to see theosophists questioning the >decisions of their elected servants. > >john e. mead Yes, it is healthy to communicate. However, you need to consider how you are communicating and its impact on other ears. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:17:28 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Asscons Message-ID: Which one is yours? Hi, we all know those cute little computer symbols called "emoticons," where :) means a smile and :( is a frown. Sometimes these are represented by :-) and :-( respectively. Well, how about some "asscons"? Here goes: (_!_) a regular ass (__!__) a fat ass (!) a tight ass (_._) a flat ass (_^_) a bubble ass (_*_) a sore ass (_!__) a lop-sided ass {_!_} a swishy ass (_o_) an ass that's been around (_O_) an ass that's been around even more (_x_) kiss my ass (_X_) leave my ass alone (_zzz_) a tired ass (_o^o_) a wise ass (_13_) an unlucky ass (_e=mc2_) a smart ass (_$_) Money coming out of his ass (_?_) Dumb Ass >> ..ooo*"""**ooooo .oo*""*ooo.. >> . oo*" "*o.oo*" "*o. >> . o" 'o" "o >> o o *o >> .o o 'o >> o o o. >> o o o. >> o o o >> o \o/ o >> o --0-- o >> o. /o\ .o >> o o o >> "o o o" >> oo'" o "oo >> oo o oo >> oo. oo .oo >> 'ooo. .oo. .ooo >> "o ""oo,, ,,oO-'Oo, ,,,,,,..oo" o >> o. """""" oo """"" .o >> 'o oo o' >> *o oo o >> 'o o o >> o o o >> o o o >> o o o >> o o o >> o o o >> o o o >> You have been e-mooned! Send this to 5 people within the next hour and you will be blessed with people laughing at your e-mail. Happy e-mooning!!! This is NOT a chain letter, so if you don't mail it out, you won't have bad luck.(But who wouldn't want to eMoon a friend?) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:48:54 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: GRATITUDE/TSA Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980213144854.008beb30@mail.eden.com> Even discounting what the Masters want to do or not to do, I think a certain amount of gratitude is due to the Founders -- HPB, Olcott and Judge for their sacrifices. All of them worked and sacrificed the prime of their life for Theosophy and TS; they were in the mid forties when started TS -- not after they retired after a full term of full time work earning a living. All of us are the beneficiaries of the sacrifices of the founders and we will have neither TS or Theosophy but for them. Having said this, what I tried to point out was what the foundation of TS as these founders saw (even though they received inspiration and encouragement and direction from their Teachers). Over the last one hundred years, none of the TS leaders have ever disputed the primary focus of TS - i.e. Brotherhood/Sisterhood/Siblinghood. Now what we seem to have is TSA taking off in a totally new direction with totally new emphasis. Each one of us can believe in anything we want and give any priority to one or more of the objects or anything else -- such freedom is inherently needed for everyone's growth. The issue I tried to address is when a National President (and the Board of Directors) of TSA seems to relegate the Brotherhood issue and try to present the TSA with a different emphasis -- mystery etc. there is no problem, legally. Fundamentally, the laws under which TSA is incorported gives them full legal authority as elected officials to almost do anything they want in running the organization. But the question that need to be addressed is why the change in the emphasis? Is it a marketing gimmick to induce public to join and/or buy the publications? Since TSA is an integral part of TS(Adyar), such shift in emphasis might be contrary to the long standing international policy and rules of Adyar and might eventually lead to TSA losing its charter, as it has happened in several countries. All these issues seem to be relevant. Hope they will be addressed soon and we can all know where the organization is headed for the next millenium. mkr At 11:12 AM 2/13/1998 -0800, you wrote: >At 07:46 PM 2/13/98 +1100, you wrote: >>I hope this is not too long. >>-Bruce > >Yes, Bruce, Yes, Yes. This paper is so TRUE to the spirit of theosophy. I >love you and bless you and thank you for preparing it. Bruce, we can be >thankful for our three objects. Perhaps they were designed for us to AGREE >to and not for us to participate in. Isn't it fun that John Algeo steps >theosophy down to us ( I mean, the human being.)? Brotherhood? Uh - the >masters better be prepared to mankind's dedication to their families and to >their countries. Perhaps the Masters could work for the three objects >through our T.S., but when they work through the country, they use other >ideals. The family is so CHARACTERISTIC of man. I wonder how adepts live! >Probably in cultural groups of sort. Maybe they don't value family, but we >can still be strongly in support of family because that is what being human >is. Think how much it helps our beloved animal kingdom to develop! > >I'm starting to think that the three objects are here for the Masters to >accomplish, not us. What can't it be the masters who form a nucleus, >encourage study, and investigate man, and us human beings can just agree to >let them do it. John Algeo gave us something that we are capable of doing >which is look deep within ourselves and when we do this we can find "The >Masters." We can find the masters living within us and we can love them and >thank them and know them and talk to them and they can make our lives >thousands of times better than they ever were before. > >>If our personal view is so concentrated upon what we believe to be our >>weaknesses, then how shall we develop that which is more worthy of our >>consideration? We pay much too much attention to the minor faults and >>disregard the major; whilst forgetting to be forever thankful to the Father >>for the gifts already given. > >>Or perhaps the answer might be, "Oh, but I do that already!", without >>reflecting as to whether one can really have done this enough, if in fact >>the blessings have been itemised at all. It is a little like counting one's >>money, only far better. There is meagre satisfaction in counting money and >>checking to see if it is all there. For if one has more than enough, it >>becomes merely an act of counting, and if there is a deficiency it becomes > >>more of a worry, because of that shortage. >> >>To some it appears as a painful and arduous task. But if we are to receive >>many gifts in our life, we are firstly to know and use what we have and >>secondly to know of our gratitude for them. By actively doing this our >>entire outlook does brighten, and a certain confidence develops within the >>man, who then stands firmer in the world. >> >>Quite often the remedy to our troubles is there before us and yet unseen. We >>are to refine our attitudes and begin in small measures, seemingly, and find >>that the results are astounding in respect to future changes which will be >>effected, by the enhancement of our personal perspectives. >> >>One may be greatly assisted in the beginning, by actually vocalising those >>blessings, loudly pronouncing in detail to oneself or to another. This is >>not to suggest boasting of course, but to explain the concept of the >>practice of grateful acknowledgment and then to take turns in such >>conversation, expressing as many blessings as one can bring forth. Such an >>interplay will certainly uplift the mood of the party and also be far more >>productive than many an alternative form of conversation! >> >>Beware of opinions and comparisons however! This is not the intent of the >>procedure. We must acknowledge that this is very subjective and not open to >>conjecture, if it is indeed honest in reproduction. Also, one may never >>truly be convinced when bringing to mind our treasured happinesses, this is >>not the point. The point is the stimulation in the revealing and the >>revelation of overwhelming gratitude which weeps from such vital >>stimulation. The very fluids of the spiritual life pour from such >>reverential thankfulness. > >Thank you, Bruce, I was very moved by your excellent insight. > >Brenda From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:05:27 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: asscons Message-ID: Uh, I did not intend to send those asscons so prematurely. I was e-mailing them to friends and somehow, they got onto theos-l. How did I do that? My apologies. Anyway, I hope you all had a good laugh. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:00:55 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980213150055.00b2e400@mail.eden.com> Dear Thoa: All we can do is to say what each one of us sees in a situation. It is not in my nature to keep quiet when I see something that need to be addressed. Sometimes such efforts may yield results and some times they don't. However if one is convinced enough of a point of view, one has to pursue it even though most people don't agree. I have posted another msg where I have elaborated the concern I have and hopefully it makes my point clear. When such important issues are discussed, full participation from the organizations can go a long way to help correct any erroneous impressions or facts. But this has not happened so far. Hopefully one of these days the situation may change before it is too late. mkr At 03:20 PM 2/13/1998 -0500, you wrote: >To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) >Subject: Universal Brotherhood >Cc: theos >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >>Dear Thoa: >> >>All you have mentioned is true. But here we are having a situation which >>goes to the root of the future of TSA. >> >>My concern about putting Brotherhood/Sisterhood/Siblinghood first and >>foremost is not out of my imagination. It came about as a result of some of >>the messages that AP Sinnett got from Mahatma KH and which were reiterated >>and reemphasized by HPB when Sinnett harped on putting emphasis on >>mysteries and phenomenon as the best way to further Theosophy to the world. >>In this context he was repeatedly told that Brotherhood is the key and even >>if it is just a dream, at least a noble one. I will try to get some of the >>material on this issue from the ML to APS later today when I have some time. >> >>Also if there has been a policy change in de-emphasizing Brotherhood as a >>matter of official policy, then membership and public should be told so >>(instead of taking an elitist hierarchical view.) >> >>When we see membership dwindling and lodges and centers on the decline, the >>issue of the primary policies/objects of TS becomes very important and can >>be decisive how far the decline can take place before the TSA itself is >>shutdown (as a matter of fact in the by-laws, a provision has been made to >>fold all the assets into the TIT Trust which does not have to answer anyone >>-- Don't we all remember what happened in the Krishnamurti Trusts until the >>California Attorney General had to sue the Trustees). >> >>mkr >*************** > >*The term brotherhood to include man, woman, children, creatures and aliens.:o) > >Dear Doss, > >I now understand better what your concerns are. Your heart is in a good >place. However, I do not think you expressed it very well in your >statement to John Algeo. The problem is not who the TS will attract, but >the focus of the TS. Your mentioning about "selfish" people only dilutes >and confuses the issue. Worse still, it judges and accuses innocent >people. Anyone who is interested in theosophical concepts, the mystery, >and scholarship would be guilty under your description. > >I agree that an elitist point of view goes against everything that >Brotherhood* stands for. Your accusing people of being selfish based on >their interests also goes against what Brotherhood stands for. From >several definitions posted, we see that Brotherhood also means tolerance >for varying beliefs, tolerance for Theosophy and theosophy, assisting other >Brothers on their paths, and includes the brothelhood of mankind. This >also includes scholars, people in search of the mystical, etc. Intolerance >for any would go against the idea of Brotherhood. Two wrongs don't make a >right. > >Have your attempts to change things bring much fruit? If not, then maybe >different avenues should be considered. It could start as small as >changing the wording of your letters to people who could make a difference. > >Thoa :o) > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:31:59 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1421 Message-ID: <34E4C9DE.C7518BD0@netfeed.com> > Bart asks how I know that when John Algeo says "the Ancient > Wisdom" he means the doctrines of Blavatskian Theosophy rather > than something more generic. To that might be added the question > of how I know that when Algeo says "the elders" he means not > spiritually advanced beings in general but the Masters of > Theosophical literature in particular. Mainly, it's because the > rhetoric in the TS for the last 90 years or so has been in this > direction and Algeo is clearly aligning himself with that > elitist tradition. > I haven't been following this string, so forgive me if my response is out of context. I understand the term "Ancient Wisdom" when used the present day by the Adyar leadership, to mean the entire body of Blavatskian doctrines as well as the later revelations of Besant, Leadbeater and company. JJHE From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:51:21 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980213165121.007a6a10@pop.netaddress.com> >The majority of theosophists seem to find it easier to ignore bad ideas and >positions rather than correct them. Agreeing with you, in the sense that not only theosophists, but "new agey" or so-called "spiritual groups" The TSA leaders often use phrases like >"now, don't be negative!" as a way to guilt-trip an individual into >silence. That attitude actually *is* a very negative and damaging thought >form. You know something, in the foggy Ensenada, proud-to-be soooo nice and soooo "spiritualy elevated" that comment is the rule and usual?? Mere hypocrysy, to me.I'm sick and tired of the so-called "spiritual-new age-occult-socialists" burguois pepole.... They're sick,man!!! (also - Thou shall not criticize thy church, or thy will be judged a >heretic!) > > The same. lots of conservative church fanatics here too. If we want to do a REAL change, we have to start at ALL levels. pretend that most of the pepole are not worthy of pure and deep taughts, and focus only in "THE" supposed pepole that "Suppose" to be the ones who will understand, it is a real waste of time,because, How can you know if the pepole is spiritualy prepared to understand some virtues only because of their economical-educational status?? and some not?? Only the rishis of karma could know. In the maintime, the only thing we can do is work with the most LOVING pepole, the ones you can see in their eyes, the full love they profese to brotherhood. Is the only way. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:48:50 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Red Light at Adyar? Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >the brothelhood of mankind Alan :-| --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:02:12 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >One idea: The officers of the TS have a direct chat session via computer. >This is where Eldon's post regarding the instant e-mail system would come >in handy. The announcement should be done well ahead of time so that those >who would like to take part can have the time to prepare for it. Also, all >theosophical discussion lists should be made aware of this event. I >strongly believe that proper communication is one of the keys to resolving >problems. Doss has repeatedly advocated and requested that TSA officers do this, and join in discussions on theos-l to further the objects of the TS and the interests of its members and others. Although it is known that some of them (at least) have e-mail facilities, they have never even *replied* to this idea, even though we all know quite clearly that theos-l is monitored (or at least read) by some at Wheaton. Alan :-(( --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:04:14 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Universal Brotherhood Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >Side 1: Blah, blah, blah. >Side 2: I hear you say blah, blah, blah. Do you mean blah, blah, blah? >Side 1: Yes, I mean blah, blah, blah. >Side 2: Okay, I understand your feeling of blah, blah, blah, but I yak, >yak, yak. Blather, blather, duh. Alan :-) [Sorry] --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:53:06 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: asscons Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >Uh, I did not intend to send those asscons so prematurely. I was e-mailing >them to friends and somehow, they got onto theos-l. How did I do that? > >My apologies. Anyway, I hope you all had a good laugh. AND forwarded them on ... (tee hee) > Alan "What is this life if, full of care, we have no time to shout BEWARE!" (Apologies to the original) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 17:33:01 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: Comunication of High and elevated taughts Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980213173301.007ab630@pop.netaddress.com> >the >suggestion of proper communication would be like this: > >Side 1: Blah, blah, blah. >Side 2: I hear you say blah, blah, blah. Do you mean blah, blah, blah? >Side 1: Yes, I mean blah, blah, blah. >Side 2: Okay, I understand your feeling of blah, blah, blah, but I yak, >yak, yak. > >Etc., etc. :o) > >Thoa > > I taught this was the normal way of comunication!!! hahahahahaahahahahahaha :P A very profund way, i would say,jehehehe Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:17:35 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Comunication of High and elevated taughts Message-ID: >>the >>suggestion of proper communication would be like this: >> >>Side 1: Blah, blah, blah. >>Side 2: I hear you say blah, blah, blah. Do you mean blah, blah, blah? >>Side 1: Yes, I mean blah, blah, blah. >>Side 2: Okay, I understand your feeling of blah, blah, blah, but I yak, >>yak, yak. >> >>Etc., etc. :o) >> >>Thoa >> >> > >I taught this was the normal way of comunication!!! >hahahahahaahahahahahaha :P >A very profund way, i would say,jehehehe >Estrella Hi Estrella, mi amiga, "jehehehe", is that Spanish for hehehehe? :o) I don't know what happened today. Again, my guide, the comedic Chohan struck again. Some of the stuff, like the above, was a little humor, but the big laughs of the day were not intentional. I figured out how I happened to accidentally eMoon the theos-l with my asscons, and you were partly responsible! When you posted a few days ago with your new e-mail address, I did an automatic address entry from your post. It didn't occur to me at that time that your post was actually from theos-l. Thus, under Estrella was the theos-l e-mail address. I thought I privately e-mailed the joke to you, but ended up e-mailing to theos-l. And then on top of that, I mistyped brotherhood into brothelhood! Must be some subliminal thing. Okay, the comedic Chohan is telling me to get off my high horse. I'm going to go under a rock and read some private posts that require focusing on. Have a great weekend! Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:45:10 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea Message-ID: We have been discussing about the idea of having communication with the officials via the internet. How about starting an e-mail chain letter writing campaign to this effect? The letter will be addressed to Olcott and written as a courteous invitation. The letter could be written and cross-checked by several people to make sure that the letter has good intent. This chain letter could also have the support of respected people within the T.S. Einar of Iceland comes to mind, since he seems sympathetic to all theosophists. Each theosophist receiving the letter could sign it with the e-mail address and position. Theosophists at large could also sign the letter. After signing, each theosophist will e-mail it out to all the theosophists they know. One person could be in charge of collecting the e-mails. Thus, after signing, the recipient should also cc the person collecting the e-mails. The intent of this request for contact should be to increase communication and understanding, and not as a way of lynching. Whatever gripes one may have, the officers should be given lots of respect for their position. It doesn't mean you bury your concerns, but it does mean you word it in a way that doesn't block communication. If we do get an audience with the officers, think of this as a way for future communication to be established, and not destroy the opportunity. The letter could also contain the technical aspects of setting up communication. It should be well-detailed, serious, and leaves no detail unturned. Any feedback would help, otherwise this idea will just go nowhere. Thanks, Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:45:55 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >The letter could also contain the technical aspects of setting up >communication. It should be well-detailed, serious, and leaves no detail >unturned. > >Any feedback would help, otherwise this idea will just go nowhere. Feedback: An idea well worth considering. May I suggest you draft a proposed letter to the list, and then all subscribers can have their 2 cents' worth of input etc., etc., until a consensus is reached? This was how we set up TI! And TI is still here ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:11:07 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Differences between TS and New Acropolis? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980214221107.009386c0@mail.eden.com> I do not know about NA, but some one else may be able to throw some light. However, I vaguely recall there were some organizational disputes regarding TS years ago and it could be that some of the lodges may have moved into NA. I am also posting this on theos-l so that if anyone there knows something they could respond. mkr At 06:36 PM 2/14/1998, you wrote: >Dear theosophists, > >The TS Lodge in Croatia where I used to go before ten years became part of >the organization called New Acropolis. What are the doctrinal and >organizational differences between TS's and NA? What do you think about >this NA organization? Is it stil teosophy, or something different, on your >opinion. I heard that they are accused for some extreme right political >ideology, but I have no evidence for it yet. > >Sincerely, >______________________________________________________________ > Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. math. > Faculty of Natural Sciences and Math, University of Zagreb > mailto:kmajor@public.srce.hr http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:12:02 EST From: ZZZLEEPER@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1423 Message-ID: I had I hearty laugh over the asscons. The lightening up was refreshing. >From a newbie Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:27:26 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980215092726.008c2310@mail.eden.com> First of all thanks to Eldon for the letter and I think he hit the nail on its head. Anytime anyone or any lodge or any section is made to leave TS, it is very sad. We had the situation in Denmark, and Canada where similar events have taken place. I am yet to see any light thrown on these situations from the TS side. Lack of any information makes one wonder what is the "real" reason for the decisions. We had the situation in Boston Lodge. During the TSA By-laws change which was presented as "house keeping", when allegations were made that the members were accused of attempting to take the property and distribute between themselves (which was challenged by a member who was then the Secretary of the lodge to which there were no replies), the only response from TSA was that the it was too complicated to explain as if the members are not intelligent enough to understand. Add to this is the confused direction of TSA as presented in the recent posts quoting some of the pronouncements. Lack of openness and information is not helping the situation. In the past, what was happening in one country, the neighboring countries are kept in the total darkness. (It was couple of years before Denmark discovered about events in Yugoslavia). No more. Internet e-mail, maillists and newsgroups have changed all that. Add to this is the fact that the leadership not taking advantage of the Internet as a communication medium either due to lack of understanding of the potential of the medium and/or as a deliberate policy or don't yet know how to deal with the medium. On the other hand, what we see is Internet is breaking down of the walls that exist between the organizations. Theosophists belonging to all the organizations and belonging to none, discuss here various issues as brothers and sisters and siblings. No "editing" No censorship -- totally open. All this for free courtesy of a few committed open minded Theosophists. No dues, no fees to be paid. This may be the future for Theosophy. Of course those who are comfortable with a Theosophy "religion" based on specific "beliefs" (I emphasize because anything based on personal knowledge is no longer a belief) and don't want to think for themselves and solve problems themselves will only be comfortable in a "religion" type of a set up. May be time is running out for the formal set up used during last 100 years and TS organizations turning into publishing houses. Who knows? Time only can tell. mkr At 11:28 PM 2/14/1998 -0800, you wrote: >The following is the contents of a letter of which I have a >photocopy. It pertains to the question regarding why the >Yugoslavia Section split with Adyar. It would be interesting >if anyone else has other information regarding what happened. > >What I wonder about when reading the letter is how things >can get so polarized, so fragmented, so driven apart. When >our dark suspicions of others grow to the point that we >portray them as evil, enemies of our work, and when we no >longer talk to them, so there's no "reality check" to naysay >our dark imaginings, we've made each other into monsters >of our own creation. > >Just as, in our positive support of others, encouraging them >in their spiritual work, we add brightness and light into >the world, similarly, in our negative *and unsubstantiated* >suspicions about others, we bring darkness and gnawing >hatred into the world. What's important is that we always >keep open lines of communication, brotherliness, and a >spirit of cooperation, and not shun and demonize our fellow >Theosophists. > >-- Eldon > >---- > >THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN YUGOSLAVIA >Gen. Sec.: Emilio Trampuz >Proleterskih brig. 226 F >41000 Zagreb >YUGOSLAVIA >Zagreb, 18th March 1984. > >To: >All General Secretaries >and other active members >of The Theosophical Society > >Dear brother co-workers, > >I am writing to inform you that the Theosophical Society in >Yugoslavia is not a Section of the International Society any >more, at least temporarily, even though we are still working for >the original Cause for which the Society was established. The >separation from Adyar which has occurred is only administrative. >You are probably interested to know how and why it happened. It >is useful to know, because the same might happen in your own >Section too. > >Like most Sections, we too had a group of conservative and a >group of more liberal and broad-minded members. It was the >latter who did most of the work, whereas the conservatives did >the criticizing. This is not unusual. In spite of the >differences, for many years there was at least a recognition of >the fact that we are all working for the same Cause, each in its >own way. But during the last two or three years there was a >dramatic change for the worse. > >The person most responsible for it is Jennifer Krevel, an English >lady married to Leon Krevel, who is a Yugoslav and who has for >many years been president of Lodge "Service" in the town of >Ljubljana. It was Jennifer Krevel who did most harm to our >Section and precipitated its separation from Adyar. > >It is interesting to note that earlier in time Jennifer did not >show any interest whatsoever in our Section. She was not even a >member, although her husband was a Lodge president. Then, >suddenly, she decides to join our Section, and soon after that >she takes over the leadership of the Lodge from her husband and >starts with her destructive activity, in which she has steadily >persisted during the last three years. > >Naturally, she herself could not do much harm. She never got >much support from our members. But it seems she has strong >connections with some members of the European Federation, >"esoteric" connections, and judging by her sudden involvement in >our work and by the instant support she received from some of the >leaders of the European Federation, it would not seem improbable >that she was instructed from abroad and received a mission to >accomplish, which she did very well, as is seen from the end >results. > >For the past three years, Jennifer has engaged in purely >destructive criticism. She has undoubtedly criticized anyone who >contributed actively to the work within our Section. She has >fanatically tried to denigrate most of the leaders of our >Section. She has criticized our Summer School, our publications, >and our work in general, accusing us of being too broad and >universal, not "theosophical" enough. She wanted to impose on > >all our members a uniform and rather narrow understanding of >Theosophy. > >This is, in fact, our main point of disagreement, which causes >all the other misunderstandings. Most of us define something as >"theosophical" if it helps the spiritual evolution of man, if it >helps his growth and deepens his inner awareness. Jennifer and >her supporters in Lodge "Service", however, see as theosophical >only that which comes from Adyar or from our most prominent >members; everything else is "untheosophical". But there is >another important difference between us. We have never tried to >impose anything on them, whereas Jennifer Krevel has constantly >tried to force her views on everyone else. She herself is unable >to see anything spiritual or valuable outside of our Society, and >she would like to impose the same limited view on all our other >members. She is thus degrading Theosophy into just another >religion with its own dogmas, and with Adyar being a kind of >infallible authority whose judgement is not to be questioned. > >We would not blame her for holding such views if she did not try >to impose them on others and if she were not so destructive in >her activity. > >She has criticized and slandered even things she knows nothing >about, or even when she had no real arguments. For example, she >has criticized us for doing Sufi Dancing / a type of devotional >practice with music / at our Summer Camp, but she has never said >what is so "untheosophical" about it. Sufi Dancing has been done >at numerous Summer Schools in America, New Zealand, in Belgium / >in Spa /, in Huizen, and in Adyar / when John Coats was >President / . Similarly, Jennifer has criticized us for teaching >people the principles of positive thinking, and for teaching >concentration, relaxation and visualization exercises which >cannot be found in books published by T.P.H. She has criticized >the work of Lodge "Phoenix" without ever having seen it and >without ever attending any of its meetings. She has criticized >our whole Executive Committee for changing its own decisions in >accordance with the changing circumstances. With her constant >criticism at the meetings she has almost paralyzed the work of >the Executive Committee. She has made the work of Lodge >"Brotherhood", which shared the same premises with her own Lodge, >very difficult, by trying to control all its activities, behaving >in a very autocratic manner. She has even acted directly against >our General Secretary, preventing a meeting of his with members >of Lodge "Brotherhood", at which he was supposed to give a talk >on the Evolution of Man. On that occasion, she wanted to impose >a different theme for the meeting, and gave us an ultimatum: if >we do not accept her own topic, we must leave the premises -- >which we did. Jennifer has similarly tried to control all the >activities within our Section. She has broken the basic >principles of the Theosophical Society, the principles of >brotherhood, tolerance and the freedom of thought in the Society. > >Due to her constant destructive criticism, she has greatly >damaged the reputation of our Society in the public because her >activities are the reverse of what a theosophist should be doing, > >and her own example repels people from our Society. > >Finally, Jennifer has done all that was within her power to >destroy the reputation of our Section abroad, by writing >slanderous letters and giving a totally distorted picture of our >work. > >As a result of this kind of activity, Radha Burnier, our >international President simply canceled the Charters of five of >our Lodges, which constitute 80% of our Section, and also >canceled the membership of 8 of the most active workers and >leaders of our Section, including our General Secretary, our Vice >president, our Secretary, and the Lodge presidents. In other >words, it was an attempt to destroy our Section as such. > >At the same time, Radha gave her full support to Jennifer Krevel >and her Lodge "Service", as well as to two other small Lodges >which have sided with Jennifer. Radha now considers these three >Lodges to be the only representatives of the Adyar Theosophical >Society in Yugoslavia. Needless to say, our members, especially >the older ones are very distressed at this, disillusioned, and >disappointed in Adyar. Some can hardly believe that such a >decision can come from Adyar. > >To satisfy the form, before making the above decision, Radha has >sent someone from the European Federation to investigate the >situation in oar Section. However, this investigator was >obviously biased. She / a lady / spent A WHOLE WEEK in the town >of Ljubljana, with Jennifer and her supporters, planning their >moves, and then spent only two days in Zagreb, where the >headquarters of our Section is located, excusing herself that she >did not have more time. In Ljubljana she talked to everyone; in >Zagreb she met only three people and REFUSED to talk to the >others, saying that it is not important what the others may have >to say, as they can say nothing new. In this way she did not >give our members an opportunity to present to her the real state >of affairs. > >Radha Burnier explains her decision to cancel the Lodges and >expel our members giving as the main reason / and ONLY reason / >the fact that we have allowed a certain Lodge to be formed, a >Lodge which is being led by a person whose theosophical knowledge >has been gathered outside the limits of our Society, but who has >been working very devotedly for our Section for the past three >years. The decision to form the new Lodge was made by our >Executive Committee, with 9 votes in favor of it, 3 withheld from >voting, and no one was against it -- not even Jennifer Krevel. >Now, the interesting thing is that the list of the 8 expelled >members does not correspond to the list of the 9 members who have >voted for the formation of the new Lodge. In fact, it is quite >different. Our Treasurer, for example, has voted for the new >Lodge but was not expelled. Jasna Zubcic, president of another >Lodge, voted for, but was not expelled. On the other hand, Igor >Jerman, former Vice-president, had no voting power at that >meeting, but was nevertheless expelled by Rahda Burnier. > >Upon further analysis, it soon becomes clear that the list of >expelled members matches exactly the list of people who have >signed a petition against Jennifer Wrevel in August 1983, asking > >that disciplinary action be taken against her. So, it is obvious >that the reason Radha Burnier quotes is not the real one. It is >obvious that Radha has simply sided with the most conservative, >dogmatic and destructive elements in our Section, and has >expelled all those who have opposed it. > >But, let us return to our Section. > >Not content with all the harm already done to the theosophical >movement here, Jennifer and her supporters are now claiming the >Society for themselves, even though they are only a small >minority in fact. We could not just give up and hand over to >them the results of years and years of our work. If we allowed >them to take over the Society, who would carry on the work? Who >would continue all the publishing projects? Who would take care >of the large distribution of our books through bookstores around >the country? Who would continue the public lectures and courses >we organized? Who would organize the Summer Schools? All this >work has been done by us alone. Jennifer and her Lodge never >showed any interest in continuing the work. They only criticized >it, and even diminished the activity of their own Lodge by >closing their library to non-members. > >Clearly, we could not permit our Society and our work to fall >apart just like that. But, as long as we were a Section of the >International Society, Jennifer could claim the right to take >over our Society, on the basis of Radha Burnier's official order, >which states that the Yugoslav Section is now being represented >only by Jennifer's Lodge. Therefore, we HAD TO separate >ourselves from the international Society, IN ORDER TO SAVE THE >WORK. > >Our decision to proclaim the Yugoslav Section independent from >Adyar was made at a special Convention, which had been announced >to discuss the situation even before we received Radha Burnier's >order. Our decision was made UNANIMOUSLY, because Jennifer and >her few supporters boycotted the Convention by not comming. I >would like to stress that it is only an administrative move to >protect our Society and our work. > >We would be only too happy to return to the International Society >if it stopped supporting those who would like to make a religion >out of Theosophy, and who so deliberately undermined all positive >activity in our Section for years now. > >But we feel we do not have many friends left in Adyar. John >Coats, Jean Raymond, B. R. Mullik are all dead now. They have >been very much in support of our work. Brother Mullik, who was >the last one of them to visit us, said that he sees great >potential in our country and forsees a bright future for the >theosophical movement here. In fact, he even intimated that he >believes Yugoslavia may play an important role in the future >development of the Theosophical Society, for he saw a lot of life >and energy here. > >Radha Burnier, on the other hand, has never been very >sympathetic. She has never been here, but she has some negative >feelings about Yugoslavia. Is it, perhaps, because Yugoslavia >was one of the few countries which gave more votes to Rukmini in >the last elections? Or is it because she knows our General >Secretary from the time he worked with John Coats in Adyar, > >editing the magazine PHONIX RISING which was not to her liking? > >Our Section was never involved or interested in the internal >politics within the Society. All we wanted was to be able to >concentrate on the work of spreading Theosophy, making people >more aware of spiritual values, helping them to deepen their >understanding and their awareness. But we were constantly >subjected to pressure from the dogmatic conservatives, and >constantly had to justify our work and prove its correctness. We >wasted so much time and energy in this, because they were deaf >and blind to all our arguments. It is impossible to reason with >someone whose mind works on one track only. > >We were hoping that we shall finally have some peace now. >Jennifer Krevel has reached her goal to a certain extent. She >had written to Adyar more than a year ago expressing a desire to >form an independent Branch within Yugoslavia, separate from the >Yugoslav Section. Radha Burnier has now, in fact, given her >blessing, and Lodge "Service" can now easily register themselves >in Ljubljana under the name of "The ADYAR Theosophical Society in >Yugoslavia", whereas we would remain simply "The YUGOSLAV >Theosophical Society", registered in Zagreb. In fact, we have >already submitted our decision to the authorities in Zagreb. It >would be only natural to expect that they will do the same in >Ljubljana. Then we could both concentrate on the work, each in >their own way. > >But no! Jennifer wants to keep on fighting us. She has told us >openly that she intends to keep on fighting us "even if it takes >until she dies". She and her husband / who is a retired lawyer / >have already been in Zagreb a couple of times to talk to the >local authorities to warn them against us! Is this theosophical >brotherhood? Is this the result of a lifetime of theosophical >studies? Has her action anything to do with real Theosophy / >divine wisdom / ? > >It is difficult for you, who have not experienced it, to imagine >the extent of Jennifer's destructiveness, or even to believe that >a member of our Society could act in this way. But it is all >true, and Radha Burnier supports it. > >Our authorities, fortunately, are not blinded by dogmatism, and >they see clearly that there is nothing wrong with our work. So, >we carry on, as active as ever, bringing forward LIGHT ON THE >PATH as our next publication, and a translation of THE VOICE OF >THE SILENCE soon to follow. > >In the meantime, Jennifer has spread a lot of slanders and >untruths about us. If you have heard any of it and would like to >hear our explanation of it, we have prepared a longer exposition >of all points of disagreement. So, if you are interested to hear >it all more in detail, we can send you a copy. > >We are enclosing here a copy of a letter sent to Radha Burnier >from our Convention in January 1984. This will also tell you a >bit more about all the work we are doing here. We are now tired >of justifying our work and explaining how it really is. This >letter is only to inform you of what is going on. We hope it is >the last such letter, and that we shall finally be free to >concentrate on the work itself. > >Wishing you all the best in your work! > >-- Emilio Trampuz, Gen. Sec. > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:35:46 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980215093546.0092b760@mail.eden.com> At 09:32 AM 2/15/1998 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-02-15 03:48:22 EST, you write: > ><< Does the President of the TS have the authority to unilaterally > throw out members and sections? >> > >Canadian Section was excommunicated several years ago, an issue which has been >discussed on theos.talk previously. Was this the action of the Int'l President >alone or in conjunction with the Adyar BOD? Wasn't the Swedish Section >jettisoned from the TS as well? And when one is thrown out, does one have to >do penance before getting back in? The International President with the approval of the General Council can cancell the charter. The rules can be found at: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ The Danish Section also had its charter cancelled. Then there was litigation about the assets and Adyar group lost their claims in two courts and that is where it stands. I don't know why any one would do any penance to get back for what. All the Theosophical Classics were put out long time ago and there is nothing new that has come out. No reason for anyone to belong to any organization any more. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:36:54 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1423 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980215093654.00abb100@mail.eden.com> At 09:20 AM 2/15/1998 -0500, you wrote: >I had I hearty laugh over the asscons. The lightening up was refreshing. > >>From a newbie > >Julien Humor is essential in life. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:27:55 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <34E7259A.FEDEA85A@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > We had the situation in Boston Lodge. During the TSA By-laws change which > was presented as "house keeping", If you are talking about the by-laws about distribution of property, I know of no source where they referred to it as "house keeping", in the sense of cleaning up vague language, as opposed to protecting real estate from a hostile takeover. It was presented as a major and serious change to the by-laws. From my reading, the key problem was that it changed the nature of the by-law describing how a Lodge might be dissolved, and I DO support making it far more difficult to do so than it is currently. > Add to this is the fact that the leadership not taking advantage of the > Internet as a communication medium either due to lack of understanding of > the potential of the medium and/or as a deliberate policy or don't yet know > how to deal with the medium. How have they failed to take advantage of it? It's a real, not rhetorical question; please recall I am writing the Theosophist's Guide to the Internet. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:48:33 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <34E72A71.54852627@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > The International President with the approval of the General Council can > cancell the charter. The rules can be found at: > > THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: > http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ > Thank you, and thanks to Dr. Bain for providing the information. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:00:58 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Keeping things in perspective Message-ID: Yesterday- In the early evening We could not have been in more perfect Harmony. Yin essence; yang essence Swirl and blend all things into One. This morning- I rise lazily to greet the sun behind the haze. One wonders about the misty cling... Discordant notes frustrate the composition. Insistence on explaining The Great Mystery Strikes the stomach; vibrates... Such a thing lends itself not to explanation If it did; it would not be The Great Mystery ***** Truth filters in As on sunlit beams. And drops As a leaf. All Silently proclaiming All; The garden patch, The grassy summer slopes. ***** When spoken to "Love loves." One preserves it. -Art House From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:00:16 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Yugo Section Split -- The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: Doss: >On the other hand, what we see is Internet is breaking down of the walls >that exist between the organizations. Theosophists belonging to all the >organizations and belonging to none, discuss here various issues as >brothers and sisters and siblings. No "editing" No censorship -- totally >open. All this for free courtesy of a few committed open minded >Theosophists. No dues, no fees to be paid. This may be the future for >Theosophy. > >Of course those who are comfortable with a Theosophy "religion" based on >specific "beliefs" (I emphasize because anything based on personal >knowledge is no longer a belief) and don't want to think for themselves and >solve problems themselves will only be comfortable in a "religion" type of >a set up. > >May be time is running out for the formal set up used during last 100 years >and TS organizations turning into publishing houses. Who knows? Time only >can tell. > > >mkr If the internet is the future of theosophy, then maybe it is time to move on and see how we can contribute to making the internet medium grow and be beneficial for everyone. I am for openness, but there can also be too much of a morbid focus on something. I did notice that on theos-l, there were few responses to people making serious inquiry into their interests, be it science, art, truth, etc., but tons of responses to past wrongs. I did like the frequent emphasis in that letter on moving on, on not letting negativity hinder their work. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:02:13 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: THEOS-L digest 1423 Message-ID: Hi Julien, It's good to loosen up some (!), however accidentally. When people get too involved in their own vacuum, they forget to play, and they also forget that there are billions of people out there with outlooks different from their own microcosm. If you forget that, then you forget Brotherhood/Siblinghood. Thoa :o) >I had I hearty laugh over the asscons. The lightening up was refreshing. > >>From a newbie > >Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:02:26 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea Message-ID: >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >>The letter could also contain the technical aspects of setting up >>communication. It should be well-detailed, serious, and leaves no detail >>unturned. >> >>Any feedback would help, otherwise this idea will just go nowhere. > >Feedback: An idea well worth considering. May I suggest you draft a >proposed letter to the list, and then all subscribers can have their 2 >cents' worth of input etc., etc., until a consensus is reached? > >This was how we set up TI! And TI is still here ... > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Okay. However, I have several requests before I attempt this. 1. I need to know that this effort will get support. So far, there's Alan Bain. Is there anyone else? Two signatures will not be impressive. 2. I need support of people with good contacts in the T.S., and of course, extensive e-mail addresses. 3. I need people who would volunteer to proof-read what I had written. I would prefer to do this privately until the letter is ready to be put out to subscribers for their inputs. I also have several questions: Does anyone know of prominent theosophists who would be supportive of this effort? I will research into the technicality of having a chat session. I'm familiar with AOL's chat line, but not with the web's. If anyone already has good knowledge of this, let me know. I would like to make it technically as easy as possible for the officials to have a chat session. The purpose of this is to increase communication. The letter will contain its mission, an invitation, technical details, and theosophists' support. The main idea is communication and diplomacy. Also, as you can see, my language is practical and direct. I believe that one of the aspects of proper communication is knowing who you are talking to, and align your language to them. For example, your language would be different when you are talking to a child as opposed to talking to someone doing their doctorate. This is not phoniness, this is bringing out different aspects of yourself that can relate to your subject. Being a semi-newbee, I have no idea how I should relate to the officers. That's when having someone proof-reading my writing would help. This idea is just an idea, but it could be much more if there is massive support. It could be an impressive document with signature of members, non-members, ex-members, etc. If you think that this idea is ludicrous, please let me know why. I would appreciate the input. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:05:58 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Thanks and farewell Message-ID: <199802152105.NAA00750@palrel1.hp.com> I'm glad for the time I have spent on theos-l, but due to several demands on my time I've decided to unsubscribe. It wouldn't seem right, though, to depart without a little thank you to those I've chatted with and others who have contributed to the list. Though I haven't agreed with everything posted I do appreciate the effort everyone makes in the midst of a busy day to share their reflections and aspirations. Deep down, that divine spark in each of us gives us the same ideals, however rough the detours or diverse the roads that lead to them. A warm "au revoir" to all. Titus From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:36:37 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: FTP Site Offer Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980215193637.009c1c80@mail.eden.com> A generous and committed Theosophist has offered to provide disk space for storing files which can be FTP'd (ie. downloaded). This site can be used to store new material as well as could be a mirror site where duplicate files from other sites can be stored for retrieval by anyone on the Internet. I would like to get some feedback from anyone interested in uploading/mirroring files as well as any other ideas. If anyone else is willing to provide a FTP site there can be more than one mirror site. Looking to hear from you all. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:53:44 -0500 From: Frank Reitemeyer Subject: Re:Differences between TS and NA Message-ID: <199802152154_MC2-3376-54CC@compuserve.com> >I do not know about NA, but some one else may be able to throw some light. >However, I vaguely recall there were some organizational disputes regarding >TS years ago and it could be that some of the lodges may have moved into >NA. I am also posting this on theos-l so that if anyone there knows >something they could respond. >mkr >At 06:36 PM 2/14/1998, you wrote: >Dear theosophists, > >The TS Lodge in Croatia where I used to go before ten years became part of >the organization called New Acropolis. What are the doctrinal and >organizational differences between TS's and NA? What do you think about >this NA organization? Is it stil teosophy, or something different, on your >opinion. I heard that they are accused for some extreme right political >ideology, but I have no evidence for it yet. > >Sincerely, >______________________________________________________________ > Kazimir Majorinc, dipl. ing. math. > Faculty of Natural Sciences and Math, University of Zagreb > mailto:kmajor@public.srce.hr http://public.srce.hr/~kmajor >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi, I am quoting from the latest dictionary about sects in Germany from a Mr. Hans-Otto Wiebus: "Religionen, Sekten, Seelenfanger" (Religions, sects, soul catchers). Folllowing Mr. Wiebus the New Acropolis was founded in 1957 in Buenos Aires from Jorge Angel Livraga (J.A.L., 1930-1991). Today there shall be 150 Centers in 50 countries with total 50,000 members exist. The first europian branch was founded in 1967 in fascist Spain. The NA is to be said to combine theosophical thought with right-winged ones and to have a strong leader system with discipline and order and esoteric. JAL shall have based his doctrines on the Theosophy of Blavatsky. There exists an inner circle which is organised like a secret society. So far this dictionary entry. My comment: Perhaps the allegations are true or half-true. When I am reading the entry about Theosophy I don't know wether I should laugh or cry... Sadly no bibliography of JAL is given. Perhaps his books are only in Spanish? Any news about NA are welcome. Best wishes, Frank German Theos. Central Archives From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:26:18 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: FTP Site Offer Message-ID: In message <3.0.3.32.19980215193637.009c1c80@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >A generous and committed Theosophist has offered to provide disk space for >storing files which can be FTP'd (ie. downloaded). This site can be used to >store new material as well as could be a mirror site where duplicate files >from other sites can be stored for retrieval by anyone on the Internet. I >would like to get some feedback from anyone interested in >uploading/mirroring files as well as any other ideas. If anyone else is >willing to provide a FTP site there can be more than one mirror site. >Looking to hear from you all. Anyhing on the Website (below) can be mirrored to such a site - it would be a valuable backup resourse for all kinds of information. This sort of thing is vital for the future - I, for one, will not be around for ever. I am 65 in April, and although people live longer these days that they used to, there is no guarantee! Once such a site is up and running, mutual links can be placed on the various sites or parts of sites ir mirrors. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:19:39 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: Bart Lidofsky writes >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> The International President with the approval of the General Council can >> cancell the charter. The rules can be found at: >> >> THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >> http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >> > > Thank you, and thanks to Dr. Bain for providing the information. > > Bart Lidofsky Information is what the Internet is all about, and what it is best at. I am always interested in receving details or copies of documents relative to the TS worldwide (not only Adyar) tha can be placed on the website for information. The Adyar rules are a case in point - they are the basis for the International Adyar TS organisation. When I was President of my local Lodge, I obtained this particular document from the then Gen, Sec. in England, Adam Warcup, who himself had only a photocopy. Now *anyone* can get a copy. The same Lodge registers its premises as a place of religious worship as, and I quote, "The Religious Denomination of Theosophists." The Key to Theosophy by HPB has an appendix in the original edition (lacking in later copies) giving details of a US court decision that the TS is not, and cannot, by definition, be a religious body. The advantage of so registering (in the UK) is that the Lodge is exempt from various taxes, rates, or levies, depending upon the language used in different countries (in the UK it is Rates). A copy of this dichotomous document is also on the website as an image file. Of course, people who attend lectures on these premises are told that theosophy is not a religion ... yet the document dates back to 1931! People will draw their own conclusions, but the information is there, and is in the public domain, as under British law it has to be. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:05:39 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >That's >when having someone proof-reading my writing would help. > >This idea is just an idea, but it could be much more if there is massive >support. It could be an impressive document with signature of members, >non-members, ex-members, etc. When we were forming the TI "Statement of Intent" some of the feedback came via theos-l, and some via personal e-mail. I put out my original thoughts, and the would-be and existing members told me where I was wrong, what I had left out, and how the Statement could be better worded. So I kept reposting the various amended versions until all those interested were in substantial agreement. As is to be expected, not everyone agreed with every detail of every line, but there was sufficient consensus for mutual agreement, and we went ahead with that. It may not be too long before we reach the 100 member mark. Not high compared to "mainline" TS organisations, but our figures go only up. (One member did quit, but rejoined a month or two later after sundry correspondence). So I repeat my suggestion - send you draft either to list members (non- concealed members can be found by send the following to Listproc@vnet.net: rev theos-l and/or to the list itself. I for one will proofread your effort, and like others, may well edit it and post the result back to you ... Alan (with your face) :o) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:30:04 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980216003004.00b775b0@mail.eden.com> At 10:57 PM 2/15/1998 -0500, you wrote: >>>clip<<<< >Now *anyone* can get a copy. The same Lodge registers its premises >as a place of religious worship as, and I quote, "The Religious >Denomination of Theosophists." The Key to Theosophy by HPB has >an appendix in the original edition (lacking in later copies) giving details >of a US court decision that the TS is not, and cannot, by definition, be a >religious body. The advantage of so registering (in the UK) is that the >Lodge is exempt from various taxes, rates, or levies, depending upon >the language used in different countries (in the UK it is Rates). >>>>clip<<<< > >Alan I believe at least one lodge in the US also claimed it is a "religious" organization for the same reason of local taxes, which could be substantial since the lodge owns valuable real estate in the city. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:32:01 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: FTP Site Offer Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980216003201.0092d100@mail.eden.com> At 10:56 PM 2/15/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In message <3.0.3.32.19980215193637.009c1c80@mail.eden.com>, >M K Ramadoss writes >>A generous and committed Theosophist has offered to provide disk space for >>storing files which can be FTP'd (ie. downloaded). This site can be used to >>store new material as well as could be a mirror site where duplicate files >>from other sites can be stored for retrieval by anyone on the Internet. I >>would like to get some feedback from anyone interested in >>uploading/mirroring files as well as any other ideas. If anyone else is >>willing to provide a FTP site there can be more than one mirror site. >>Looking to hear from you all. > >Anyhing on the Website (below) can be mirrored to such a site - it >would be a valuable backup resourse for all kinds of information. This >sort of thing is vital for the future - I, for one, will not be around for >ever. I am 65 in April, and although people live longer these days that >they used to, there is no guarantee! > >Once such a site is up and running, mutual links can be placed on the >various sites or parts of sites ir mirrors. > >Alan :-) >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > Alan: Thanks for the wonderful offer. I am also in contact with a second potential site and multiple mirror sites could be very valuable. When committed t/Theosophists are there anything is possible. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:37:35 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980216003735.00b6a8c0@mail.eden.com> At 10:59 PM 2/15/1998 -0500, Alan wrote: >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >>That's >>when having someone proof-reading my writing would help. >> >>This idea is just an idea, but it could be much more if there is massive >>support. It could be an impressive document with signature of members, >>non-members, ex-members, etc. > >When we were forming the TI "Statement of Intent" some of the >feedback came via theos-l, and some via personal e-mail. I put out my >original thoughts, and the would-be and existing members told me >where I was wrong, what I had left out, and how the Statement could >be better worded. So I kept reposting the various amended versions >until all those interested were in substantial agreement. > >As is to be expected, not everyone agreed with every detail of every >line, but there was sufficient consensus for mutual agreement, and we >went ahead with that. It may not be too long before we reach the 100 >member mark. Not high compared to "mainline" TS organisations, but >our figures go only up. (One member did quit, but rejoined a month or >two later after sundry correspondence). Considering the current list of subscribers on theos-xxx, the number of 100 is outstanding. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:06:11 GMT From: darus@xs4all.nl (Douwe) Subject: Announcement mailing list: gnostic-life Message-ID: <34e847c2.409902@127.0.0.1> Hello. I'd like to notify you about a new (un moderated) mailing list on Gnosis, to which you may subscribe by mailing a message to: gnostic-life@oberon.xs4all.nl with in the subject header-field : SUBSCRIBE The aim of this list is to discuss the reality and the practice of Gnosis in daily life, as known to yourself, or in the case of historic accounts known to you. This life has been propagated trough the centuries by many different groups, like the Manicheans, Valentinians, Cathars, etc. Their belief was that there is a Divine spark, or seed hidden away in the natural body, and that this divine spark had to be watered by the spirit, so that the Eternal and Original being might envelope from this seed. This being supposed to grow beyond the Natural being which is subjected to life and death. There have been many historic pointers in this direction from the side of the Early Christians, Buddhists, Gnostics, Alchemists, Rosicrucians, Theosophists, Anthrosophists, etc. --- Further: -The updates to the list will be posted as often as possible. -Any questions regarding the list you may send to: postmaster@oberon.xs4all.nl -The list will only be moderated in the slightest way possible. -All flamers, will be excluded from this list. -Every spam will be reported to the postmaster of the sender-domain. I hope that you will enjoy the list. Best regards, Douwe From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:53:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Yugoslavia and Canada - Cancellation of Charter 2 of 2 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980216115352.00832c20@mail.eden.com> Here is the editorial that was published in Canadian Theosophist on the issue of termination of the charter of the Canadian Section. mkr ========================= EDITORIAL Earlier in this issue, I have given the story of our Excommunication by Adyar. When I first opened and read their letter, last February, my first reaction was How stupid can they get?" I had spent much of my time in 35 years in business checking with others or answering where others were checking with me as to intent of instructions in various business matters. One always checks and double checks to minimize errors, to retain clients and provide a reliable service. This is a business basic, checking meaning and intent. I referred this and the excommunication fact to a respected Director on my Board, and his reply was that Adyar has done some amazing things and here was another example. The persons last fall who sent the copy of by-law changes to Adyar, had earlier shown both fear of change in another manor, (as well as the by-law changes) and misread in the change proposals an additional intent to break from their most desired Adyar, where there was no such intent at all, an act of gross misinterpretation. By acting on this unwarranted fear, these two persons, ironically enough, caused the break away, done this time by their beloved Adyar, not by the Executive here. So their fear both became and caused a self-fulfilling prophesy. By reacting without checking, the Adyar council "Jumped the gun, ...". as a national president in a neighbouring country said to me. There is nothing wrong with our by-law changes. The revisions were worked on for a year by members of our Board with experience in business matters including by-laws. As was said in the set of explanations sent to all our members prior to the Annual Meeting, the by-law revisions were but to reflect reality; things change over time, so should our by-laws, to reflect our evolution. Looking at the Minutes of Adyar's Dec - Jan. Council meeting, one notes an undertone of complaint that the re-emerging Russian theosophical movement has proceeded without asking permission from Adyar, has members that are not registered with Adyar, nor had Adyar been asked to charter Russian lodges, and the Russians operate on Rules not presented to Adyar for approval. The Russian groups would be wise to stay separate. Rather than be glad that theosophy can function in Russia again, there seems to be that additional compulsion that all must be under the Adyarian wing/thumb (choose one). There we have the authoritarian tendency that has become the bad habit. For the cause of our break, it is easy to see a resentment for some remarks earlier in these columns, coupled with an autocratic tendency. The reasons are easy to see, but I do not intend to give a lesson in psychology here. The personality problems of some on the General Council should not be the problems of national Sections and lodges. We are better off separated. After the excommunication notification was sent to our members, I expected some letters to come in what I would call the spontaneity period, where people pick up pen to write importance with a worldly place or power is an error both of judgement and of focus of attention. Place worshipping is an error to be grown out of, not into, be it the Vatican, Mecca, or Adyar. If Adyar is to control the by-laws of Sections, as they seem to want to do, then their Rules should (but do not) contain a full set of rigid guides for such purposes, if the resultant "acceptable" Sections' by-laws are not to seem to be bent or controlled by whatever is the current prevailing whim of the Adyar Council. The objection to no mention of "parent society" is just such a whim, might not have been the whim of a Council in the past, or in the future with other members. Pouncing on "no parent society" when the Rules have no such requirement is specious, and one looks to other reasons as the real reasons, if reason is to be assumed to have prevailed on Jan. 1, 1992. I would be interested to know how many other Sections and lodges in the world are also deficient in that they did not have "parent society" in their bylaws. Adyar will have to amend their Rules to make this mention in by-laws a must. While they are at it, there is another change needed to correct a long standing error of judgment. I assume our readers are adults. Some years ago a title was chosen for the world head of the E.S., namely, Outer Head, implying that there was an Inner Head, a Master, that the Outer Head was in contact with. This was a most unfortunate choice of titles, because of prior use of these terms. There should have been some checking. Theosophists over the years have been regarded at times with ridicule by the great unwashed general public, so why give them another opportunity? For hundreds of years the toilet on a sailing ship was called The Head" and usually is to this day. The sailors used a convenience at the bow or head of the ship, which was the outer Head; while on large ships and galleons the captain and high officers used a sheltered inner Head. To call the head of the E.S. a ship's toilet is rather disrespectful, to say the least, and this is the interpretation of that title to the many who have nautical knowledge. To call a Master a toilet is an insult. I did not invent these titles, I am just pointing out facts. I would greatly doubt that any Master has ever contacted an Outer Head in this century, so the insult inherent in "Inner Head" would be more theoretical than actual. While we are at changes, the Objects themselves could be changed, to reflect the reality of what goes on in this society, by adding a Fourth Object: To pursue the first three objects of the Society without ever notifying any Official of the member's address change(s). *** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:52:10 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Yugoslavia and Canada - Cancellation of Charter 1 of 2 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980216115210.0083fc60@mail.eden.com> There were some discussions on the subject. One issue that came up was what happened in Canada. Here is what appeared in the Canadian Theosophist. The editorial that followed is in a following msg. mkr =========================================== >From Canadian Theosophist -Jul-Aug 1992 The Excommunication [The following article is a slightly revised version of a letter sent earlier to all members of the Theosophical Society in Canada, and presented here for the information of our non member readers.] The T.S. in Canada has been excommunicated on Jan. 1, 1992 from Adyar, by Adyar. Whatever ties or links of affiliation we have had with Adyar have now been completely severed. Adyar claims that we did the "disassociating", but it must be clearly understood from the outset, and which will be shown hereunder, that Adyar did this excommunication or disassociating, and from the beginning, last fall (1991 ) did nothing else with respect to us but to accomplish the breaking of all ties with us, and, to date of preparing this for publication late May, has done nothing but maintain the break. I was not informed of the break until Feb. 12, 92, in a very short letter from the International Secretary, Mr. Hugh Gray. I have had nothing further directly from Adyar since. I will now give the events which led up to this affair. At the last annual meeting of our members, in September 1991, we amended our by-laws as per a notice sent to all members in August, which also had explanations for the changes. The amendments were passed at the meeting, with no problem. The next legal step for me was to submit these changes to the Canadian Government for approval. Since we are a federally chartered corporation, we are subject to the Canada Corporations Act. The government has the last say in all matters. Sometime in the fall, a Western E.S. leader sent a copy of the by-law changes to Adyar, exactly as I predicted would be done. This person in the past, regarded another change our Board had proposed as being a step to break with Adyar, which was completely illogical, and never thought of or contemplated by our Board. One can assume that a similar fear was operative last fall. No break with Adyar was contemplated at any time by our Board, in the year that it took to work on the by-law changes, nor were any breaks suggested in the by-law changes, and as has been stated publicly, a break with Adyar cannot be done by us through those by-law changes, it is entirely the wrong method,— but Adyar can and did break from us, with one of the by-law changes as the excuse. I have no doubt but that a letter accompanied those by-law changes on their trip to Adyar, and can safely surmise that some alarm was expressed. Kindly note that Adyar did not write to me upon getting those things from our western E.S. leader, to ask for details, or clarification, or if the western E.S. leader was mistaken as to our intent. I repeat: to this day, late May, as I rewrite this, I have had nothing directly from Adyar except the brief letter received mid Feb. that told us that the break was in effect. I did not send a copy of the by-law changes to Adyar last fall for several reasons: 1. We are not required to do so by law; 2. Adyar has no say whatsoever in the promulgation or approval of our by-laws as a Canadian Corporation; and to this end, but ignored so far by Adyar, their Rules make an allowance where the laws of another country should cause an exception to be made to the application of their Rules. 3. I would never send a copy of the by-laws as passed by our annual meeting to Adyar, or anywhere, until the Canadian Government had approved them. Until the Canadian Government passes judgment, the bylaws amendment as passed by our members is but a memorandum of intent to change. I received the Government's approval (except for a minor point) on the same day I received the notice of excommunication from Adyar, Feb. 12,1992. 4. If there is autonomy of Sections, as is claimed, there is no need to send copies of by-laws, and any such requirement in Adyar's Rules should be deleted as being contradictory to autonomy. Mrs. Burnier, in an indirect letter, claims that she could not and would not act on our situation until the General Council met in late Dec. 1991. Fine, but she or co-workers should still have written to me for clarification of intent. Again, the Feb. letter was the only one ever received. Much later, writing through an intermediary, Mrs. B. states that we failed to send a copy of the by-law changes, and tends to say that this might be a forgivable fault, as long as the document is amended to her (or her Council's) liking. Earlier, in February, I wrote to Hugh Gray stating what is largely covered in the previous paragraph, above, to wit: Adyar does not have any legal say in our by-laws. Conveniently overlooked by Adyar is the fact that they did get a copy of the by-law changes, as I knew they would, in a manner that saved us the postage. But, as I have pointed out earlier here, such a copy did not yet have the approval of the Can. Government, and therefore had no validity then. On getting the by-law changes last fall, the Adyar vice president, who had the task of examining all by-laws of all sections, spotted where we had deleted the phrase "parent society" and this deleting was found objectionable by Adyar. The "parent society" mention was deleted for reasons given to all our Canadian members last August in the by-law change notice. I reprint the (August) reason here: "Old wording creates a conflict position with Corporations Act, as deleted word suggests another body owning controlling interest, such as a majority of shares, which is not the case. Only members shall have an interest in this corporation which is without shareholders. This change in no way affects our affiliation with any other T.S. organization." (I should have added then, "unless the other organizations decide to change our affiliation"). The "parent society" was left out and should remain out for a number of other reasons: 1. It is not required to be in by-laws by Adyar's Rules. No doubt they will amend this oversight in their inevitable Rules changes for this year. 2. It is not required by Canadian law. 3. There is no such thing as a, or the, "parent society" and for this we have the authority of H.P. Blavatsky and W.Q. Judge, whose statements will be quoted below. 4. The words "parent society" should never have been, and need not have been, put in the by-laws in the first place, 17 years ago. Had this been left out, nothing in that respect could have been noticed last fall, and this present situation would not have come about. 5. There is supposed to be autonomy of lodges and Sections. This is stated by Blavatsky and Besant. One finds it also in various T.S. magazines, and if not hypocrisy, should therefore be upheld without exceptions by Adyar. Recent history shows that it has not been upheld. Blavatsky said "There is no longer a "Parent Society"; it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical Societies, all autonomous ..." (H.P.B. C.W. Vol. Xl, p. 381). Wm. Q. Judge, when asked about "Parent Theosophical Society, and ... the meaning of the term, and to what is it applied?" answered: "At present there is no meaning in the name, and its use a source of error; it should never have been used. If there is in existence a"Parent Society", then it is the Aryan [Theosophical Society] because its charter members are the only ones left here of the first branch ever formed, while Mme. Blavatsky and Col. Olcott are the founders of this branch, which became the Aryan after their departure. But as the whole Society is composed of its branches and unattached members, and as each person who joins - either through a Branch or at large - thereby becomes a member of the whole Society, there can be no "parent Society." It is advisable that this term be discarded altogether, as it has no reason for its existence, and no meaning in its use." (From a reprint in "Echoes of the Orients", The Writings of William Q. Judge, Vol. II, p.440.) Annie Besant also stated that "A National Society, or Section is autonomous, .... Theosophy came to Canada via A.E.S. Smythe 101 years ago. Smythe emigrated to Canada from Ireland, and on the boat he met W.Q. Judge, who convinced him of the merits of Theosophy. Our first charter came via Judge, as head of the American Section then. Judge split with Besant and aligned elsewhere. Besides what H.P.B. and Judge had to say about "parent society". there is another problem, and valid reason for not using this phrase: if there were a "parent society" for the T.S. in Canada, then is it the Aryan T.S. (which no longer exists) or the theosophical organization that Judge shifted to after his split, or the present T.S. in America, (which group took over from Judge, and from which the T.S. in Canada derived in 1919)? One has only one real parent (or in biology, two). A foster parent is not a real parent. At best, Adyar could be only a foster parent. We in Canada have always leaned to H.P.B. for an authority, so there is no parent society and therefore no foster parent. A.E.S. Smythe always held, as with Judge, his mentor, that a Section and a lodge was autonomous with a loose affiliation with other like theosophical groups, and all the Canadian General Secretaries have always been given this rule of Smythe's, and upheld it, often to the chagrin of those in far places over the past 101 years, and with this tradition, I have found no reason to take a different path, and in this current affair, I have but followed Smythe's footsteps. When I received the letter, Feb. 1 12th that noted our excommunication, I immediately sent off a letter of explanation of our actions, said that there was never any intent by our Board via the by-law changes to break from Adyar, suggested that they had acted rashly on the fear mongering information from their E.S. Canadian informant, I acknowledged that the break was in place, at Adyar's doing, and invited/awaited a reply, which never came. I wanted to allow them the 24 days for mail each way plus some time to further discuss this matter among themselves, before breaking the news to our members. I restate that Adyar has done nothing other than to make this break from us, commencing last fall, and to maintain it. They will claim otherwise, when it appears unflattering to appear to have done what they did. They have also been apprised of H.P.B.'s stand on "parent society". I have received an inkling, indirectly, by a copy of a letter from Mrs. Bumier to an intermediary, probably for my consumption. The gist of this is that if we were to apply on bended knee, and subjugate our rights to Adyar's desires for our by-law content, then they might reconsider mending the break. Contractual subservience too, would be required, to get around the problems inherent in our being a corporation. These previous sentences have been reinforced again, by another letter from "over there" which was again for my benefit, and which the required subservience in by-laws and any other matters deemed necessary, was repeated as a prerequisite before any rejoining could take place. I heard rumours that Adyar had asked or instructed that our advertisement in "The Quest" magazine be stopped. So much for rumours. Within two days of hearing of this, (and five days after getting the excommunication letter from Adyar), I had a phone call from the company that looks after advertising for various magazines, including "The Quest". He stated as follows, "I have been requested to advise you by "The Quest" magazine, that on orders from headquarters in India, the T.S. in America. cannot further permit your ad to appear in "The Quest" magazine". (*The T.S. in America owns and publishes that magazine.) I have obtained the name of the western E.S. leader who "went snitching to mama". As I knew who this was before, from prediction, this was but a confirmation. I reamed that the Canadian Federation T.S. was advising some lodges of the excommunication and suggesting that these lodges join up with the Federation. I then received a copy of a letter being sent out by the Federation, which turns out to be written by Radha Bumier to Mr. H. Jackson. The letter adds "... It is the wish of the General Council to encourage the growth of the Canadian Federation in every way." So we are out, there was never anything done "over there" but to put us out and keep us out. This letter was dated Feb. 24, 1992. Adyar has time to write to the Federation, fax to Wheaton, and no doubt write to other loyal E.S. dominated sections, but has no time or courtesy to reply to my letter of Feb. 15, 92. Since they want us out, why should we go against Adyar's wishes? Thus I say, out we are, and out we should stay. We will not be alone in this, as others have separated, or been separated in the past, the next last to us was Denmark. I have always held as despicable the gentle art of shunning as practiced by certain "Christian" sects when one or more of their fold leaves. There have been fears expressed to me, and already signs that this could or is happening against the members of the T.S. in Canada. If it does, I say that it is a good thing, because it indicates the level of development of the person doing the shunning, as well of that of who orders the shunning, so it would be no loss to us by losing any former contact with a shunner. THE IMPLICATIONS AND FUTURE PATH Each member should make up his or her mind as to whether they want to stay with this now independent theosophical society, the T.S. in Canada, or if the umbilical cord with Adyar is deemed essential, as it might be for all E.S. members, to attach themselves with the Federation forthwith, (or form a 3rd group, if the Federation is not acceptable). I could never understand why the T.S. in Canada did not themselves make a break years ago, such as in the '20's when the Federation split-off was done. We have historically always "been a thorn in the side of Adyar", critical when wrong or folly appeared. A.E.S. Smythe in the twenties was highly critical of distortions of the original teachings being put into the E.S. by the Leadbeater-Besant duo, and the "Christ is coming through Krishnamurti" farce. A number of members disagreed with Smythe, so the Canadian Federation was formed, to cater to the needs of the E.S., who disagreed with Smythe et. al. Now we have the opportunity, handed to us on a platter, of having two organizations to cater to the two basic desires: the T.S. in Canada, H.P.B. and Judge based in origins and fairly steadily upheld over the years; and the Federation, E.S. based with Adyar and Outer Head linkage and obedience to E.S. Oath. Make a choice, and let us all go onwards in our preferred ways. There is little compatibility, if any, with what the E.S. now stands for, and basic theosophy and the desire of many for autonomy. We have been separated from Adyar since Jan. 1st, 1992. I have noticed nothing different in our operations nor in my life, theosophical or otherwise prior to learning of the excommunication on Feb. 12th, nor since. This article brings the information to many of you for the first time. Has your life been different since Jan. 1, 1992? I think not. I have been asked many times, going back years, What is the benefit, if any, of being attached to Adyar? I have never been able to answer this - that is, the "Benefit" part. There is none. Yet some, especially the E.S. members, feel that there is, and that is their privilege—just do not push this at those who think otherwise. Now we have a choice: the independent group or the Adyar linked group. This choice I think, now, is fair and just, and should settle the long standing fuss with the E.S. based Federation plus the E.S. members in our midst, and those of us who disliked what crept into the E.S. (see "The Elder Brother" by G. Tillett) and have always stood aloof and against that E.S. Then there are the very many of our members who have little or no knowledge that Adyar exists, and know nothing of the E.S. and its history. That group will, I hope, remain as our members. (The Tillett book is part of our Home Study Course, and it can be purchased from our Edmonton Lodge, and from a bookseller in California.) The choice is to remain in a democratic autonomous society, or go to a Adyarian linked society under their current autocratic rule. For us to return, I remind you, bended knee is required, surrender of right to make autonomous decisions as to our by-laws etc., and contractural subservience to Adyar. I stated to our Board meeting last September, that I would never instigate a break with Adyar, and I added that if any such break were to occur, it probably would be started by Adyar, who had much more experience in this sort of thing, such as the recent Denmark Affair. How right I was! *** I do hope that when this rite of excommunication was done, that they used correct and proper procedure, with: Ring the bell Close the Book Out the candle. [* Not necessarily in that order.] --- S.T. [Stan L. Treolar, General Secretary] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:11:26 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea Message-ID: Alan: >When we were forming the TI "Statement of Intent" some of the >feedback came via theos-l, and some via personal e-mail. I put out my >original thoughts, and the would-be and existing members told me >where I was wrong, what I had left out, and how the Statement could >be better worded. So I kept reposting the various amended versions >until all those interested were in substantial agreement. > >As is to be expected, not everyone agreed with every detail of every >line, but there was sufficient consensus for mutual agreement, and we >went ahead with that. It may not be too long before we reach the 100 >member mark. Not high compared to "mainline" TS organisations, but >our figures go only up. (One member did quit, but rejoined a month or >two later after sundry correspondence). > >So I repeat my suggestion - send you draft either to list members (non- >concealed members can be found by send the following to >Listproc@vnet.net: > >rev theos-l > >and/or to the list itself. I for one will proofread your effort, and like >others, may well edit it and post the result back to you ... > >Alan (with your face) :o) >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk Alright, Alan. I think I should head to the library and find a book on diplomacy for my letter. "Come to my party!" would not do, huh? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:10:08 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34E88100.D1E877B0@sprynet.com> Thoa Tran wrote: > different aspects of yourself that can relate to your subject. Being a > semi-newbee, I have no idea how I should relate to the officers. That's > when having someone proof-reading my writing would help. Like you relate to anybody else. A bunch of us here are officers of individual Lodges, and you have no trouble dealing with us. > This idea is just an idea, but it could be much more if there is massive > support. It could be an impressive document with signature of members, > non-members, ex-members, etc. I would say that the key to any involvement of the TSA on the Internet involves getting cooperation from 4 people, in the following order: John Algeo, Ruben Cabigting, Eldon Tucker or me, and Joan MacDougal. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:16:18 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <34E88272.88EFAE98@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > I believe at least one lodge in the US also claimed it is a "religious" > organization for the same reason of local taxes, which could be substantial > since the lodge owns valuable real estate in the city. There is a difference between a religious organization and a religion, however. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:40:08 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980216134008.00b48610@mail.eden.com> At 01:21 PM 2/16/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Thoa Tran wrote: > >> different aspects of yourself that can relate to your subject. Being a >> semi-newbee, I have no idea how I should relate to the officers. That's >> when having someone proof-reading my writing would help. > > Like you relate to anybody else. A bunch of us here are officers of >individual Lodges, and you have no trouble dealing with us. > >> This idea is just an idea, but it could be much more if there is massive >> support. It could be an impressive document with signature of members, >> non-members, ex-members, etc. > > I would say that the key to any involvement of the TSA on the Internet >involves getting cooperation from 4 people, in the following order: John Algeo, >Ruben Cabigting, Eldon Tucker or me, and Joan MacDougal. > ^^ > Bart Lidofsky > Glad to know you are a key person. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:44:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Yugoslavia, Canada, Denmark etc. Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980216134400.00932850@mail.eden.com> It appears that there were also problems with TS in Greece, Italy, and Ireland. Anyone has any info about these countries and any other country where TS had problems similar to that in Yugoslavia, Canada, Denmark? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:01:44 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34E89B28.3368C4C6@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > I would say that the key to any involvement of the TSA on the Internet > >involves getting cooperation from 4 people, in the following order: John > Algeo, > >Ruben Cabigting, Eldon Tucker or me, and Joan MacDougal. > > ^^ > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Glad to know you are a key person. In terms of tech support. Eldon does most of the outside tech support, and I do a little, which is why I list Eldon before me. John makes the decisions, Ruben implements them, Eldon and I help out Ruben when necessary, and Joan is in charge of TSA communications. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:21:32 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Hans-Otto on Theosophy and Anthroposophy ?? Message-ID: <01ITNJNBYRAI8ZFLN7@InfoAve.Net> >Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:53:44 -0500 >rom: Frank Reitemeyer >o: "INTERNET:theos-l@vnet.net" >c: Theos-Talk >Subject: Re:Differences between TS and NA >Hi, I am quoting from the latest dictionary about sects in Germany from a >Mr. Hans-Otto >Wiebus: "Religionen, Sekten, Seelenfanger" (Religions, sects, soul >catchers). > >Folllowing Mr. Wiebus the New Acropolis was founded in 1957 in Buenos Aires > >My comment: Perhaps the allegations are true or half-true. When I am >reading the entry >about Theosophy I don't know wether I should laugh or cry... Sadly no >bibliography of JAL >is given. Perhaps his books are only in Spanish? my curiosity is up now.. what does Hans-Otto have in his dictionary about Theosophy? also ... maybe more important would be what he has on anthroposophy and Steiner?? john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:16:47 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <199802162118.OAA22457@selway.umt.edu> >> This idea is just an idea, but it could be much more if there is massive >> support. It could be an impressive document with signature of members, >> non-members, ex-members, etc. > I would say that the key to any involvement of the TSA on the Internet >involves getting cooperation from 4 people, in the following order: John Algeo, >Ruben Cabigting, Eldon Tucker or me, and Joan MacDougal. Actually, this entire situation gives me a good chuckle ... to see the underlying assumptions implicit in the discussion. Why should the *membership* of *any* non-profit "democratic" organization need to *petition* or lobby the *leadership* to pay attention and communicate with it? Why should members need to organize a "massive campaign", or try to convince any person or persons? In every non-profit I've worked for ... the *leadership* is generally trying to persuade the *membership* to come online, to try to communicate with its membership through every possible channel. Our leaders seem to sit as Kings and Queens on their thrones, maybe open to receiving petitions from us commoners - but I don't think the membership should for a moment *buy* that attitude. The leadership is *elected* by the members, for the purpose of *serving* the members ... and they seem to have forgotten that. *They exist to serve us - we do not exist, and pay, for the privilege of serving them*. *They need us, we do not need them*. I personally don't think the membership should concern itself with getting down on bended knee and trying to humbly persuade the leadership to do what it is already their duty to do. I personally think its about time to throw the whole autocratic lot of them out the window before the entire society goes under. The next election should be very interesting - there is widespread and growing sentiment throughout the TS that the Emporers and Empresses ... suddenly appear to have no clothes. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:23:30 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <01ITNLRVR4V88ZFKEC@InfoAve.Net> > From: JRC > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: An idea > Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 4:26 PM > > >> This idea is just an idea, but it could be much more if there is massive > >> support. It could be an impressive document with signature of members, > >> non-members, ex-members, etc. > > I would say that the key to any involvement of the TSA on the Internet > >involves getting cooperation from 4 people, in the following order: John > Algeo, > >Ruben Cabigting, Eldon Tucker or me, and Joan MacDougal. > so what have Ruben, or John, or Joan to say on the matter? I guess I'm asking (on behalf of Theos-L) for Eldon and Bart to ask them. peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:18:10 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea Message-ID: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> > I would say that the key to any involvement of the TSA on the Internet >> >involves getting cooperation from 4 people, in the following order: John >> Algeo, >> >Ruben Cabigting, Eldon Tucker or me, and Joan MacDougal. >> > ^^ >> > Bart Lidofsky >> > >> >> Glad to know you are a key person. > > In terms of tech support. Eldon does most of the outside tech support, and >I do a little, which is why I list Eldon before me. John makes the decisions, >Ruben implements them, Eldon and I help out Ruben when necessary, and Joan is >in charge of TSA communications. > > Bart Lidofsky Thanks, Bart, for the information. This gives me a clearer idea. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:17:17 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea Message-ID: John: >Actually, this entire situation gives me a good chuckle ... to see the >underlying assumptions implicit in the discussion. Why should the >*membership* of *any* non-profit "democratic" organization need to >*petition* or lobby the *leadership* to pay attention and communicate with >it? Why should members need to organize a "massive campaign", or try to >convince any person or persons? In every non-profit I've worked for ... the >*leadership* is generally trying to persuade the *membership* to come >online, to try to communicate with its membership through every possible >channel. > >Our leaders seem to sit as Kings and Queens on their thrones, maybe open to >receiving petitions from us commoners - but I don't think the membership >should for a moment *buy* that attitude. The leadership is *elected* by the >members, for the purpose of *serving* the members ... and they seem to have >forgotten that. *They exist to serve us - we do not exist, and pay, for the >privilege of serving them*. *They need us, we do not need them*. > >I personally don't think the membership should concern itself with getting >down on bended knee and trying to humbly persuade the leadership to do what >it is already their duty to do. I personally think its about time to throw >the whole autocratic lot of them out the window before the entire society >goes under. > >The next election should be very interesting - there is widespread and >growing sentiment throughout the TS that the Emporers and Empresses ... >suddenly appear to have no clothes. -JRC John, I like to have the policy that if things are not working out, then do something to change it. If both sides are stubborn, then nothing moves. We can only control ourselves and not others. Thus, the person doing the moving should be ourselves. I also think that the time for action is now, not waiting for something eventful to happen in the future. Suppose the future election ends up not to your liking? Will you wait for the next one? Meanwhile, everything goes into further decline? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:20:28 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980216232028.00e85cc4@mail.eden.com> At 04:26 PM 2/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >The next election should be very interesting - there is widespread and >growing sentiment throughout the TS that the Emporers and Empresses ... >suddenly appear to have no clothes. -JRC > Some time ago, there was a discussion among some members that it may be a good idea to have the CPA firm handle all the mailouts of ballots and receipt and tallying of ballots just like they do in Oscar and other awards. I am sure the CPA firm which is doing the audits of TSA would be glad to provide this service and should be good to the organization in the long run. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:40:51 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34E8CE83.F3BA8437@sprynet.com> > Actually, this entire situation gives me a good chuckle ... to see the > underlying assumptions implicit in the discussion. Why should the > *membership* of *any* non-profit "democratic" organization need to > *petition* or lobby the *leadership* to pay attention and communicate with > it? There is plenty of communication. What is being requested is a specific FORM of communication, with a small portion of the membership, and a lot of non-members who publicly lambast the organization's leadership on a regular basis. Or, put it another way: Let's say a member of an organization decided that the officers should call each member individually on the phone. Would you thik it strange that a massive lobbying effort might be required to make it happen? > The next election should be very interesting - there is widespread and > growing sentiment throughout the TS that the Emporers and Empresses ... > suddenly appear to have no clothes. -JRC The overwhelming majority of the membership of TSA is not on the Internet. And not all of them have the stomach to take the kind of attacks I take for defending them every now and then. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:27:31 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >Alright, Alan. I think I should head to the library and find a book on >diplomacy for my letter. "Come to my party!" would not do, huh? You can never tell! It might be the very approach to use! Alan :0) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:25:19 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: In message <34E88272.88EFAE98@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> I believe at least one lodge in the US also claimed it is a "religious" >> organization for the same reason of local taxes, which could be substantial >> since the lodge owns valuable real estate in the city. > > There is a difference between a religious organization and a religion, >however. > Maybe their is, but followers of a religion are usually member of a religious organization. In the case I mentioned, the term is explicit : "Religious denomination of theosophists." What point are you trying to make? ?? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:04:00 +1000 From: dport@ozemail.com.au Subject: fairy tale, sd vol3 etc Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19980217140400.00709068@ozemail.com.au> I am a relatively new member of the TS and attended my first lecture on the weekend -"Qabbalah - Jewish Mysticism". The first suprise I got upon arriving was the age of the other members - I didn't see one person under 50. Then in the lecture I was told that the secrets of the Qabbalah would not be revealed to anyone under 40 ( I am 26). The most disappointing aspect of the night was that in no way was Judaism even compared to some of the tenets of the Secret Doctrine, in fact it felt as if Dr Zuesse was trying to convert everybody to Judaism. Perhaps I expected too much - I'm going to give the lectures another go next week (a Krishnamurti video)but from what I can already gather is the Secret Doctrine is seen as too hard by many lay members or the attacks of materialist science has rendered it as irrelevant - There is not one programmed lecture for the next 3 months even relating to esoteric wisdom. Enough complaining - I recently saw the film 'Fairy Tale' based on the true story of two girls who photographed some fairies near a stream in their garden. The photos were given to a local TS member who had them verified and authenticated and then brought Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Harry Houdini in to investigate. The photos were then published in The Strand I think. What I would like to know is has anybody seen these photo's and do the TS records show this event as occuring. And finally, I have just finished vol II of the Secret Docrine (IMO the french version is the best ;-) ) and in the final pages HPB talks of vols 3 and 4. My lodge does not seem to have them - were they released because she says that they were almost finished at the time. Namaste, D.Porter aka NOS From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:09:49 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Good News Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980216230949.012d1860@mail.eden.com> Here is some good news. Adyar has e-mail. We can now send communication directly to Adyar. mkr ==================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:12:32 EST From: Natsec Subject: Adyar's email Dear Brother Ramadoss, Adyar has had email for several months now. Their address is ... para.vidya@gems.vsnl.net.in Happy mailing, William Nathan Greer National Secretary From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:34:43 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <34E92173.74EDF6C8@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <34E88272.88EFAE98@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >M K Ramadoss wrote: > > > >> I believe at least one lodge in the US also claimed it is a "religious" > >> organization for the same reason of local taxes, which could be substantial > >> since the lodge owns valuable real estate in the city. > > > > There is a difference between a religious organization and a religion, > >however. > > > Maybe their is, but followers of a religion are usually member of a > religious organization. In the case I mentioned, the term is explicit : > > "Religious denomination of theosophists." > > What point are you trying to make? ?? Nothing major. The New York Lodge lists itself as a religious organization (more precisely, a religious educational organization) without having to declare Theosophy as a religion. Since Theosophy very frequently enables people to understand their OWN religion better, I think it's a fair designation. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:48:01 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: fairy tale, sd vol3 etc Message-ID: <34E92490.429AAE11@sprynet.com> dport@ozemail.com.au wrote: > I am a relatively new member of the TS and attended my first lecture on the > weekend -"Qabbalah - Jewish Mysticism". The first suprise I got upon > arriving was the age of the other members - I didn't see one person under > 50. That is not uncommon. In the New York Lodge, at least, that trend is turning around, and we have a number of members in their 20's. > Then in the lecture I was told that the secrets of the Qabbalah would > not be revealed to anyone under 40 ( I am 26). You misunderstood. According to Jewish tradition, Kabballah (the Q spelling is usually reserved for the Christian derivation) should only be studied by someone who is over 40 and married, in other words, a stable person. This is a tradition, NOT a law, and even if it were a law, it would not be binding on non-Jews. > The most disappointing > aspect of the night was that in no way was Judaism even compared to some of > the tenets of the Secret Doctrine, in fact it felt as if Dr Zuesse was > trying to convert everybody to Judaism. That was probably just poor presentation. Judaism STRONGLY discourages converts, especially since they have a simple set of rules under which a non-Jew would be considered to be a follower of Jewish Law (belief in unity of God, use of courts to solve disagreements, kindness to animals, not testifying falsely to hurt someone else, not murdering, not breaking marriage agreements). Kabballah is, however, the Jewish take on Theosophy. Perhaps the links to the SD were implied rather than explicit? > Perhaps I expected too much - I'm going to give the lectures another go > next week (a Krishnamurti video)but from what I can already gather is the > Secret Doctrine is seen as too hard by many lay members or the attacks of > materialist science has rendered it as irrelevant - There is not one > programmed lecture for the next 3 months even relating to esoteric wisdom. Many Lodges do not follow Blavatsky, but concentrate instead on the "Latter Day Theosophists." Why don't YOU volunteer to give a talk on the S.D.; you may be surprised by the level of positive response you receive. > Enough complaining - I recently saw the film 'Fairy Tale' based on the true > story of two girls who photographed some fairies near a stream in their > garden. Who CLAIMED to have photographed some fairies. > The photos were given to a local TS member who had them verified > and authenticated and then brought Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Harry Houdini > in to investigate. The photos were then published in The Strand I think. > What I would like to know is has anybody seen these photo's and do the TS > records show this event as occuring. The photo's have been pretty conclusively proven to be fakes (they were posed cut-out's, and the original source has been found). Two books of special interest are Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's books on Spiritualism (note especially his comments on HPB), and Harry Houdini's A MAGICIAN AMONG THE SPIRITS. There was a major difference between Harry Houdini and modern debunkers such as James Randi: Houdini genuinely believed in the supernatural, and was searching for genuine examples. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:54:04 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: An Idea Message-ID: <34E925F7.4FB6@withoutwalls.com> > JRC wrote: > > I personally don't think the membership should concern itself with getting > down on bended knee and trying to humbly persuade the leadership to do what > it is already their duty to do. I personally think its about time to throw > the whole autocratic lot of them out the window before the entire society > goes under. If you follow Hansel's crumbs, you'll get to your own Self soon enough. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:08:09 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <199802170609.XAA22194@selway.umt.edu> > There is plenty of communication. What is being requested is a specific >FORM of communication, with a small portion of the membership, and a lot of >non-members who publicly lambast the organization's leadership on a regular >basis. Bull. Several weeks ago the "reason" why no one responded to member internet queries was because "no one at Wheaton even pays attention". When that was pretty much exposed as being patently absurd and factually incorrect, suddenly now its because there's only a few members, and they "lambast" the leadership on a regular basis? Well guess what Bart ... I've been on these lists from close to the very beginning, and at first no one "lambasted" anyone. Most queries were polite and very honest and well intended questions, asked by sometimes long-time Theosophists whose years of membership and Theosophical work certainly made them deserving of at least an acknowledgement - and they were utterly ignored to the same degree as queries currently are. It hasn't mattered a bit *how* Wheaton has been approached. Over time, the leadership came to be "lambasted" only *after* two things happened ... first, it became clear that online members would simply be completely ignored, and second, a number of different situations began to be discussed that demonstrated that the way Wheaton was presenting information was *very* distorted, and a number of behind the scenes activities began to be made public. Yes, there *is* "plenty of communication", but *only* in those "FORMS" in which Wheaton gets to completely control the communication. On this list last year there was a vigorous discussion off and on for two or three months about "minor housekeeping changes" to the bylaws. Strong opinions were held, cases made, information presented, possibilities discussed - and certainly both supporters and those who strongly disagreed with the changes both made their arguments. Probably very few people's minds were actually changed among the participants (though I hear that a number of the listeners *did* come to understand that the changes were more significant than Wheaton was presenting), but the point is, it was the *actual debate*. In fact IMO there's a very good chance that had the whole Society seen the real debate, the changes may *not* have been passed, or would have at least been a lot closer. What sort of "communication" did Wheaton provide? It made its own case in its newsletter, and permitted one or two minor critiques (that didn't even touch the most significant points) and then immediately responded to the critiques. For anyone not online ... one would think that the changes were just "minor", that there *was* no debate and barely any questions at all. On the internet Wheaton *wouldn't* be able to control the spin ... it could try to make its case, but would be asked a whole lot of questions it clearly does not even want to be topics of discussion. The lists may be small ... but a number of long-time, well known members are participants. There are members on this list with every bit as wide a knowledge of Theosophical writings as John Algeo, and at least a dozen with *considerably* more experience at actually *running* businesses and organizations. These are *not* people who just humbly accept being treated as though they are freshmen in one of his English classes. Frustration at being completely unacknowledged has *lead* to the lambasting. Guess what, *any* leadership that ignores any members other than those acting in an "approved" fashion gets two results: First, a lot of people just *quit*, and second, some choose to remain out of loyalty to the organization, and over time they get really angry and frustrated. John Algeo & gang certainly have the power to act any way they want to - they can sue their own Lodges, and then change the bylaws so they don't even *have* to sue them again, can ignore any members or queries they want, discover all sorts of new "meanings" in the Objects, can, in short, completely control what the TS is regardless of what any members think or say, and can so completely control communications that they supress any evidence of growing discontent - BUT THEY ARE REAPING WHAT THEY HAVE SOWN: Plummeting membership numbers and growing amounts of "lambasting" in every forum over which they *don't* have control. But its the height of arrogance to now point to that intense criticism, which is an expression of anger and frustration created by Wheaton itself - and now claim that *its* the reason why the poor victimized Wheaton remains, *as it has been from the very beginning*, utterly silent. You can starve a dog for a week, but you can't then claim at the end of the week that the reason you're not gonna feed it is because its barking at you so loudly. >Or, put it another way: Let's say a member of an organization decided >that the officers should call each member individually on the phone. Would >you think it strange that a massive lobbying effort might be required to >make it happen? Why put it another way when doing so confuses rather than clarifies? Email and/or participation in discussion lists, are *not* the same things as either snail mail or the phone. I help run one non-profit, and do volunteer work for two others, including one large one, and in all three cases the Executive Director either directly responds to all email addressed to him/her, or has staff do so - and in two out of three the ED's insist that the response be immediate ... hell, I've even received personal email responses from my Montana Congressman (a number of members of Congress and the Senate have staff members respond ... but also answer selected messages themselves - but then again, they actually believe they are *responsible* to the people that elected them). Email is by far the quickest and cheapest form of communication that exists today - and cannot even be compared to phones. Besides, the point isn't the *form* of communication, its the *attitude towards members*. Executive Directors and Presidents of small organizations, or their staffs if the organization is larger, generally feel as though they should *RETURN THEIR PHONE CALLS, ANSWER THEIR MAIL, AND RESPOND TO EMAIL* - the ridiculous fact that we are even having this argument on this list is just bizarre. This isn't a single member trying to convince the TS Board to phone 4000 people, its a group at least partially composed of *dues-paying members* of the Theosophical Society *trying to get its Officers and staff to answer direct questions about significant things the Officers are doing with the organization*. There is not a *SINGLE* organization I've ever worked for, or belonged to, save the TS, whose headquarters does not *ROUTINELY* respond to all correspondence sent by members. Its ridiculous to say that what is being required is an effort in which 12 people are being told they need to call 4000 - what *is* being requested is that the Headquarters of an organization *answer its damn mail*. Should it take a massive campaign to get the TS to do what every business, organization and government agency in the country does as a matter of course? > The overwhelming majority of the membership of TSA is not on the >Internet. And not all of them have the stomach to take the kind of attacks >I take for defending them every now and then. Which attacks Bart? Like a couple of weeks ago when I mentioned "mindless supporters"? What was that post in response to? Oh yeah, a condescending message from *you* in which you stated the delightful opinion that apparently anyone who actually criticized the "good people" at Wheaton were just starting groundless "rumors". You can try all you want to to present Wheaton and its supporters as good people who are the poor innocent victims of nasty attacks - but it won't work - it just *isn't the truth*. This poor victimized leadership has *all the power and resources of TS Headquarters*, and growing numbers of people are fully aware of evidence that they are *using* that power to dominate the TS with their own narrow views of Theosophy, and completely supressing any disagreement. You can defend their right to do so if you want, say that all the critics are wrong and anything other than nice supportive comments are "rumors", and try to claim that its only on this list where a small group of malcontents "lambasts" the leadership ... but if you and Wheaton actually *believe* those arguments ... I suspect the next few years will hold some very interesting surprises. You can defend their right to respond to, or completely ignore members depending upon their whims, but do not be *too* shocked when the same thing happens to them that happens to leaderships in almost *any* organization that manages to alienate significant numbers of its members. Yes the overwhelming majority of the membership are *not* on the internet - but its also apparent that many of them don't have the "stomach" to take Wheaton's attitudes any longer. ONE THIRD of the membership has LEFT during the current administration. What do you think, that the intense anger and frustration you see on this list exists *only on the list*? Do you think that the information that circulates on this list *stays here* ... isn't making its way through the larger TS? The list is simply the only place where it is *visible*. Why have all those people quit? I can speak at least for people I know - I was part of a group that started a branch in the late eighties - who jump started Theosophy in western Montana. We were recongnized as a Lodge, had a core membership of nine or ten, and were holding public meetings that drew at times up to 40 or 50 people (as large as Seattle branch meetings ... in an area with a population only a fraction of the size). Last year the Lodge was dissolved. Out of the nine or ten members, there are now two ... myself, and a guy whose membership *can't* lapse because he's a life member. And *to the person* the reason the rest quit was as a direct result of the current leadership. In fact 3 say they'll join again if the leadership changes. The people actually still meet now and then, and still study and cooperate with one another on public service projects ... they are still *living* the Theosophical life ... and refuse to be members because they don't want to support what they see as a leadership that is being - even in empirical terms - *destructive* to Theosophy in America. I've spoken with several members at large, and people from at least 4 other Lodges around the country who have quit - *because* of the way the TS is being run. I think you really *are* a committed Theosophist Bart ... and that you are probably a good and loyal friend of John Algeo's, and naturally want to come to the defense of your friend - but maybe you'll also realize that a lot of the *critics* are doing what they do because they *also* love Theosophy, and many have had *bad* personal experiences with the current TS leadership. You want to complain about the critics? Many of them would much rather just *quit* (as many have) ... but they *don't*, because of a love for and commitment to the TS. None of them "lambasted" Wheaton *first* ... they all did so only *after* calm and polite avenues of approach received nothing - often not even the briefest acknowledgement - in return. If you *really* think JA is "good", and wish to support him ... perhaps instead of trying to defend his actions and attitudes, you should *help* him understand that he needs significant work on the organizational and emotional components of leadership. You may even agree with everything he's done ... but isn't it clear that at the very least he has significant *perception* problems - and that perception is as important to leadership as policy is? Isn't the downright hemorrhaging of membership deeply disturbing? HQ can squelch any signs of discontent, and you can dismiss the complaints on this list as just confined to this list ... but when the oil light in a car comes on, simply snipping the wires to the oil light is *not* the same thing as filling the car with oil. *Most* Theosophists *want* whomever the leadership is to *succeed* ... but the situation now is beyond serious - membership dropping, Lodges closing, growing numbers of members all over the country feeling frustrated, angry, alienated - the *light* of Theosophy is *dimming* in the US, and it is dimming *because* the current leadership is simply not good at leading, and has so changed the bylaws so as to make it increasingly difficult for any genuinely fresh blood and ideas to gain leadership positions. The current leadership is "winning", but the result is that *Theosophy* is *losing* ... and that feeling is *not* just confined to a few people on this list. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 23:13:11 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: An Idea Message-ID: <199802170614.XAA11420@selway.umt.edu> >> I personally don't think the membership should concern itself with getting >> down on bended knee and trying to humbly persuade the leadership to do what >> it is already their duty to do. I personally think its about time to throw >> the whole autocratic lot of them out the window before the entire society >> goes under. > >If you follow Hansel's crumbs, >you'll get to your own Self >soon enough. As will the current leadership. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:52:26 +0100 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Comunication of High and elevated taughts Message-ID: "I taught this was the normal way of comunication!!! hahahahahaahahahahahaha :P A very profund way, i would say,jehehehe" Estrella Very profund way, indeed, indeed ... Cinderella :-)) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:03:19 +0100 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Differences between TS and NA Message-ID: "my curiosity is up now.. what does Hans-Otto have in his dictionary about Theosophy? also ... maybe more important would be what he has on anthroposophy and Steiner?? john e. mead" I would be very much intersted in that too - maybe Hans-Otto's dictionary says something new about anthroposophy and Steiner? Bbbbbrrrrrrrrr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:09:59 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: various posts Message-ID: <199802171510.KAA07391@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Herewith comments on the digests accumulated upon my return from President's Day weekend. Jerry H-E is quite right, "Ancient Wisdom" means Blavatskian Theosophy and all teachings in a particular "succession" therefrom (within the Adyar TS, of course), in general usage within TSA. Second, I recall the phrase "housekeeping changes" in reference to the 1996 by-laws, contrary to Bart's recollection. Third, it might not be entirely fair to post Brenda's comments from another list, but I will reply anyhow that "leave it to the Masters to accomplish the Three Objects, and our job is simply to be transformed by devotion to those Masters" is a view that might have been acceptable to CWL, but certainly not to HPB, HSO, or the Masters according to their letters. PJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:18:55 +0100 From: Nicole Suter Subject: An idea Message-ID: "The next election should be very interesting - there is widespread and growing sentiment throughout the TS that the Emporers and Empresses ... suddenly appear to have no clothes. -JRC" UUUUUiiiiiieeee - GROWING SENTIMENT - no clothes - what a tragedy! Are we here in the Kindergarden? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:18:34 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: One more idea Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980217151834.006ee958@mail.eden.com> Here is one more idea to encourage the TSA National President and members of the Board of Directors to get actively involved in the Theosophy maillists and Newsgroup so that Thesophy and Humanity can be served. One or more of us could draft a letter focusing on the immense opportunity that these channels are providing for communication with members and others interested in Theosophy. Also should be addressed is the issue of bringing them up to speed what maillists and newsgroup are and how they function and how they have worldwide coverage at no cost to the person participating in them. It is very difficult for anyone to visualize the maillists and newsgroups until and unless one gets involved in person and even then it takes time to learn how to best use these free resources. I am speaking from personal knowledge. In spite of my long involvement in computers, until I got myself Internet connection and started participating in the maillists and newsgroups, I did not get a first hand appreciation of the immense power and potential of these tools. Once the draft letter is finalized, it can be sent to the National President and each member of the Board of Directors with a request to the National President to do two things. (1) Include it in the Agenda of the upcoming meeting of the Board of Directors and (2) Suggest that in the next annual meeting to have a town hall meeting type of discussion on the Internet and maillists and newsgroups and how they can be used as communication tools. When the above letter is sent, I recommend that it be sent to the National President by First Class Mail, e-mail and Fax. The reason for sending it through multiple channels is to make sure that the communication positively and quickly reaches him. Also after a couple of days, a followup fax is advisable to inform that if the document has not reached asking to be contacted so that the document can be re-faxed. As for the rest of the members of the Board of Directors, the document should also concurrently be sent by First Class Mail. This speeds up communication and allows time for the Board members to be aware of the issues and think it over a period of time before the actual Board meeting takes place. The multiple modes of communication recommended above, I have found to be fool proof over a period of time in almost everyone of my communications with the National President and that is why I am recommending it. I believe that on very important matters such as the one we are considering we should not take any chances of the letters being lost in transit, misplaced etc. My 0.02. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:55:09 +0100 From: Nicole Suter Subject: fairy tale, sd vol3 etc Message-ID: "What I would like to know is has anybody seen these photo's and do the TS records show this event as occuring." I have seen these photo's. Out of a little experience with TS records I would say the event is either occuring or the photos shall be dismantled. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:06:37 +0100 From: Nicole Suter Subject: fairy tale, sd vol3 etc Message-ID: "> Then in the lecture I was told that the secrets of the Qabbalah would > not be revealed to anyone under 40 ( I am 26). You misunderstood. According to Jewish tradition, Kabballah (the Q spelling is usually reserved for the Christian derivation) should only be studied by someone who is over 40 and married, in other words, a stable person. This is a tradition, NOT a law, and even if it were a law, it would not be binding on non-Jews." There must be something wrong with the tradition since I am somewhat under 40, happy-unmarried though very stable, but I am teaching others too, since 40 years, for free. Can sombody help to sort this mess out? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:41:45 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1428 Message-ID: <004e01bd3bd3$ca01dd60$03e78ccc@nwc.net> Dear NOS: Your interest in the Cabala (Kaballa ) many spellings and what Theosophy has to say. If you have or can secure for reading ISIS UNVEILED and THE SECRET DOCTRINE by H.P.Blavatsky you will find that she employs them in many places to illustrate the main tenets of the Secret Doctrine, or the Ancient "Wisdom Religion." Both books have separately published INDEXES ( the Index at the back of each does not cover enough). With their help, one can wander through the statements that HPB made and secure from them a picture of what she intended to correlate -- the Kaballah gives evidence and corroborates many aspects of ancient wisdom. But the Cabala has been through the hands of many translators. It has lost some of its original meaning -- just as the English "Bible" has. So one has to be equipped to read between the lines for the true meaning -- not easy, but a long and pains-taking study. I can offer you a summary of my findings and would need a mailing address to send you either a floppy or "hard-copy" -- I think the file is too long for transmission in the correspondence section of this group. let me know Dallas Dallas at dalval@nwc.net or C/o this group From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:57:50 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34E9DDAE.D4A13394@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > Bull. Case in point. JRC creates a massive missive, which would require my spending hours of research on a point-by-point rebuttal, which will convince nobody here, I can ignore it, and be what he accuses Wheaton of, or I can simply acknowledge receipt, and say that I do not agree, which saves everybody time. I do not agree. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:13:46 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: fairy tale, sd vol3 etc Message-ID: Nicole: I am somewhat >under 40, >but I am teaching others >too, since 40 years, >Nicole What's this, Nicole. Kabballic math? A very sphinxy puzzle. :o) Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:13:23 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: One more idea Message-ID: Doss, that's a terrific idea. The practical aspect is great. We could also combine it with some statements on the idealism of Brotherhood, communication, etc. Isn't that why we are theosophists? All that with lots of signatures should make it a powerful document, indeed. With the advent of the internet, there were many instances where chain letters were responsible for change. Thoa :o) Doss: >Here is one more idea to encourage the TSA National President and members of >the Board of Directors to get actively involved in the Theosophy maillists >and Newsgroup so that Thesophy and Humanity can be served. > >One or more of us could draft a letter focusing on the immense opportunity >that these channels are providing for communication with members and others >interested in Theosophy. Also should be addressed is the issue of bringing >them up to speed what maillists and newsgroup are and how they function and >how they have worldwide coverage at no cost to the person participating in >them. It is very difficult for anyone to visualize the maillists and >newsgroups until and unless one gets involved in person and even then it >takes time to learn how to best use these free resources. I am speaking from >personal knowledge. In spite of my long involvement in computers, until I >got myself Internet connection and started participating in the maillists >and newsgroups, I did not get a first hand appreciation of the immense power >and potential of these tools. > >Once the draft letter is finalized, it can be sent to the National President >and each member of the Board of Directors with a request to the National >President to do two things. (1) Include it in the Agenda of the upcoming >meeting of the Board of Directors and (2) Suggest that in the next annual >meeting to have a town hall meeting type of discussion on the Internet and >maillists and newsgroups and how they can be used as communication tools. > >When the above letter is sent, I recommend that it be sent to the National >President by First Class Mail, e-mail and Fax. The reason for sending it >through multiple channels is to make sure that the communication positively >and quickly reaches him. Also after a couple of days, a followup fax is >advisable to inform that if the document has not reached asking to be >contacted so that the document can be re-faxed. As for the rest of the >members of the Board of Directors, the document should also concurrently be >sent by First Class Mail. This speeds up communication and allows time for >the Board members to be aware of the issues and think it over a period of >time before the actual Board meeting takes place. The multiple modes of >communication recommended above, I have found to be fool proof over a period >of time in almost everyone of my communications with the National President >and that is why I am recommending it. I believe that on very important >matters such as the one we are considering we should not take any chances of >the letters being lost in transit, misplaced etc. > >My 0.02. > >MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:23:03 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <199802171924.MAA30732@selway.umt.edu> > Case in point. JRC creates a massive missive, which would require my >spending hours of research on a point-by-point rebuttal, which will convince >nobody here, I can ignore it, and be what he accuses Wheaton of, or I can simply >acknowledge receipt, and say that I do not agree, which saves everybody time. > > I do not agree. Wheaton and its supporters can accuse everyone that critisizes them as rumor mongerers, imply that wanting them to simply answer their mail is the same thing as wanting them to call 4000 people ... and whenever empirical evidence like a massive drop in membership is mentioned, "save everyone time" by avoiding the topic. If want to continually defend Wheaton, and then drop the whole conversation when things get uncomfortable, then you're right .. it *is* a case in point. It would be nice if your disagreement persuaded people to stop leaving the TS, but it seems that something more may perhaps be necessary. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:39:40 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: THEOS-L digest 1428 Message-ID: Hi Dallas, Good to see you here! I thought I was at theos-talk! Namaste, Thoa :o) Dallas: >Dear NOS: > >Your interest in the Cabala (Kaballa ) many spellings and what >Theosophy has to say. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:55:58 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: fairy tale, sd vol3 etc Message-ID: <34EA157D.CF790906@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > "> Then in the lecture I was told that the secrets of the Qabbalah would > > not be revealed to anyone under 40 ( I am 26). > > You misunderstood. According to Jewish tradition, Kabballah (the Q spelling > is usually reserved for the Christian derivation) should only be studied by > someone who is over 40 and married, in other words, a stable person. This is a > tradition, NOT a law, and even if it were a law, it would not be binding on > non-Jews." > > There must be something wrong with the tradition since I am somewhat > under 40, happy-unmarried though very stable, but I am teaching others > too, since 40 years, for free. Can sombody help to sort this mess out? First, to answer what I think your question is: I said it was a tradition, and I explained the reason behind the tradition. Societies change, as to people in societies, and generalities can never be automatically applied to the individual. Second, are you Jewish? If not, not even the tradition applies to you. Third, I don't quite understand the meaning of the phrase, "since 40 years" in the context, and therefore ignored it when trying to answer your question. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:02:23 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Secrets! Message-ID: In message <3.0.2.32.19980217140400.00709068@ozemail.com.au >, dport@ozemail.com.au writes >I am a relatively new member of the TS and attended my first lecture on the >weekend -"Qabbalah - Jewish Mysticism". The first suprise I got upon >arriving was the age of the other members - I didn't see one person under >50. Then in the lecture I was told that the secrets of the Qabbalah would >not be revealed to anyone under 40 ( I am 26). The most disappointing >aspect of the night was that in no way was Judaism even compared to some of >the tenets of the Secret Doctrine, in fact it felt as if Dr Zuesse was >trying to convert everybody to Judaism. Visit the TI website below! The "secrets" of Kabbalah can be downloaded by anyone of any age. That doesn't mean anyone of any age will understand them all :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 03:01:09 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: In message <199802170609.XAA22194@selway.umt.edu>, JRC writes > I've spoken with several members at large, and people from at least 4 >other Lodges around the country who have quit - *because* of the way the TS >is being run. Well now, John, I was Lodge President in the UK for 2 years, Treasurer for one year before that, and Vice-President for one year after - that's four year's voluntary service in what was the largest functional lodge in England. I quit because of similar attitudes from the UK leadership. Some of us simply wanted to open up discussion and debate among the members without being "controlled" "directed" or "advised" by the Lodge leaders during the fifth year, when I had stepped back from the vice-presidency to the more humble role of premises officer. For helping to organize this discussion and debate I was summarily dismissed from the Lodge committee, and even taking away my membership of the Lodge itself was actively considered by those opposed to open discussion in which they might not have an automatic right to control or veto what was discussed - totally against the local, national, and international rules, BTW. The number of people involved was small; some of us transferred to the UK equivalent of "member at large" - I was one - in order to cease being under the jurisdiction of out own lodge! Once things settled down somewhat, about ten enthusiastic members out of the 50 listed members (some very old and inactive) had quit. That's 20% at the local level. In my own field of Kabbalah I have been well known for some 40 years, during which I have helped over 1000 students, always for free. At least two others have similar credit to their names - Robert Gilbert, whose lectures at TS lodges worldwide are well-known (always for expenses only), and whose knowledge of TS History is well-informed and reliable, and Nick Campion, whose work on Astrology encompasses very many years. These events had repurcussions elswhere in the English section, and its membership is now reported as being below 1000. Of those of us who left at the time I mention (as recently as 1995) only three or four remain *any* kind of theosophist, and that necessarily with a small 't'. The trend continues, and frankly, I hope that the existing (Adyar) structure collapses altogether, as it has clearly departed from the objectives and noble ideas of the founders (small 'f' as far as I am concerned). Then the true theosophists, by whatever name, may be able to restore the theosophical movement. The only values, as I see it, of the official Adyar-based societies, are their possession of useful premises and real estate (though England has had to sell quite a bit over the years to keep going, and is contemplating even further drastic measures in this area) and perhaps more importantly, the libraries of theosophical and related literature. But, more and more of this is passing into the public domain as each year advances, and there is already a vast amount of it appearing on the Internet - for free download and distribution to anyone who wants it. The bottom line is that in order to promote theosophical ideas and their essential raison d'etre, the brother/sisterhood of humanity, all that is needed is for people of goodwill to make their commitment to the work, and share their findings with others, much as we do on the net, and many groups do locally on the ground - often not using the word 'theosophist' at all. The above events were the direct cause of the development of Theosophy International, which has thus, as in the past with other people, been born directly out of theosophical ideals and the very Society which spurned it. The English Section of the Adyar TS clearly regards it as an (unacceptable) 'alternative' Theosophical organisation, and so it has *de facto* become, even though not a few of its members are also members of the Adyar Society. But we also have represntative members from the former Canadian and Denmark Sections, and there is one place still at least which deserves the highest praise for not, SFAIK, falling into the same "control mode" as England and the USA appear to have done, and that is the band of dedicated seekers after the Highest Religion in NEW ZEALAND - may their work continue to prosper. Could TSA members interact at a personal level with theos-l? Let me put it this way: some while back I announced a limited edition publication sponsored by Abraxas (a printed work). Within days I had a personal e-mail request for a copy from, guess who? John Algeo. The few Abraxas publications on offer at the time were developed by Robert Gilbert and myself. There is more than a little irony in that ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 03:06:44 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1428 Message-ID: In message <004e01bd3bd3$ca01dd60$03e78ccc@nwc.net>, Dallas TenBroeck writes >If you have or can secure for reading ISIS UNVEILED and THE >SECRET DOCTRINE by >H.P.Blavatsky you will find that she employs them in many places >to illustrate the main tenets of the Secret Doctrine, or the >Ancient "Wisdom Religion." > >Both books have separately published INDEXES ( the Index at the >back of each does not cover enough). With their help, one can >wander through the statements that HPB made and secure from them >a picture of what she intended to correlate -- the Kaballah >gives evidence and corroborates many aspects of ancient wisdom. As a confirmed Kabbalist, I can vouch for the truth of this, and have used both of these works over the years in my own studies in Kabbalah. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 03:15:07 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: In message <34E92173.74EDF6C8@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >followers of a religion are usually member of a >> religious organization. In the case I mentioned, the term is explicit : >> >> "Religious denomination of theosophists." >> >> What point are you trying to make? ?? > > Nothing major. The New York Lodge lists itself as a religious organization >(more precisely, a religious educational organization) without having to declare >Theosophy as a religion. Since Theosophy very frequently enables people to >understand their OWN religion better, I think it's a fair designation. I should think that the Roman Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church in America, The Church of England, and most other religious denominations, would also descibe themselves as "religious educational" organisations. So does Scientology. I think yours is a *misleading* designation - Joe and Jane public, seeing this, will assume a religious purpose behind your Lodge, you may be sure. This is not to question your motives as truth-seekers, of course. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:20:10 +0100 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Kaballic math! Message-ID: " I am somewhat >under 40, >but I am teaching others >too, since 40 years, >Nicole What's this, Nicole. Kabballic math? A very sphinxy puzzle. :o) Thoa" It's a very typical so to say esotheric-pyramidic model which seems to be used by some new-aged gardenflower-medias to symbolize their timeless existence. :-)) Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:19:27 +0100 From: Nicole Suter Subject: fairy tale, sd vol3 etc Message-ID: "First, to answer what I think your question is: I said it was a tradition, and I explained the reason behind the tradition. Societies change, as to people in societies, and generalities can never be automatically applied to the individual." Yes, and traditions can be very comfortable because one doesn't have to think but can just follow or copy what others did over the last sevenhundert centuries. "Second, are you Jewish? If not, not even the tradition applies to you." No, I am creative and many things doesn't apply to me. "Third, I don't quite understand the meaning of the phrase, "since 40 years" in the context, and therefore ignored it when trying to answer your question. Bart Lidofsky" Oh - that's a great, great explanation - now I know what they all do to become silly - I have always wanted to now that. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:56:19 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <34EB2ED3.1420FE52@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > I should think that the Roman Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church in > America, The Church of England, and most other religious > denominations, would also descibe themselves as "religious > educational" organisations. So does Scientology. Nope; they all list themselves as religions. > I think yours is a > *misleading* designation - Joe and Jane public, seeing this, will assume > a religious purpose behind your Lodge, you may be sure. This is not to > question your motives as truth-seekers, of course. We were grilled very closely by a New York State court (at a time when New York State was looking at ways of gaining new tax revenues by going after small organizations taking religious tax exemptions). The judge agreed with us. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:36:35 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: In message <34EB2ED3.1420FE52@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >> I think yours is a >> *misleading* designation - Joe and Jane public, seeing this, will assume >> a religious purpose behind your Lodge, you may be sure. This is not to >> question your motives as truth-seekers, of course. > > We were grilled very closely by a New York State court (at a time when >New York >State was looking at ways of gaining new tax revenues by going after small >organizations taking religious tax exemptions). I bet you were! Joe and Jane public are unlikely to grill you so closely, so my opinion stands. To an average seeker, to say that you are a religious educational organization *will* suggest a religion or religious organisation behind it. *Is this registration made widely know to the general public of NY in your literature?* In the case of my old lodge, no one was ever told of their denominational registration, the only purpose of which was, in my opinion, to deny the local authority its tax. > The judge agreed with us. On a technicality, it seems - "small organizations taking *religious* tax exemptions." [your words, my emphasis]. I'm sorry, but it looks like a tax avoidance mechanism to me. Alan :-( --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:49:28 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <34EBB9D8.F98F8FEC@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > I bet you were! Joe and Jane public are unlikely to grill you so closely, > so my opinion stands. To an average seeker, to say that you are a > religious educational organization *will* suggest a religion or religious > organisation behind it. *Is this registration made widely know to the > general public of NY in your literature?* In the case of my old lodge, > no one was ever told of their denominational registration, the only > purpose of which was, in my opinion, to deny the local authority its tax. I begin to see the misuderstanding; I forgot that you were British. In the United States, freedom of religion is taken very seriously; it is illegal for the government to even ask what someone's religion is. Members of the TS are not "registered" as to belonging to the Theosophical "religion", and Theosophy is not listed as a religion. It is a place where people can learn more about their OWN religions (as specified in the Mahatma letters). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:28:49 EST From: Bodhijack@aol.com Subject: kaballah help needed Message-ID: <1a616ce2.34ec5dc6@aol.com> interested in learning of the similarities between teacings of kaballah & teachings of classic theosophy (i.e.unity of everything). can anyone recommend a book or other writings? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:52:28 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: kaballah help needed Message-ID: <34ECC5BC.5D524087@sprynet.com> Bodhijack@aol.com wrote: > interested in learning of the similarities between teacings of kaballah & > teachings of classic theosophy (i.e.unity of everything). can anyone recommend > a book or other writings? How about a book by a theosophist on the kaballah: Dion Fortune's THE MYSTICAL QABALA. Don't forget to buy it at a Quest Bookshop! Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:57:20 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: WELCOME Message-ID: <9SnONpAwTN70EwHy@nellie2.demon.co.uk> THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL welcomes Kaatryn MacMorgan! Personal welcomes to: ladykat@ix.netcom.com Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:34:30 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: kaballah help needed Message-ID: In message <1a616ce2.34ec5dc6@aol.com>, Bodhijack@aol.com writes >interested in learning of the similarities between teacings of kaballah & >teachings of classic theosophy (i.e.unity of everything). can anyone recommend >a book or other writings? My (free) book on Kabbalah *may* help if you already have a good understanding of classic theosophy, as Kabbalah is itself A theosophy. See website below for download. ALan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:08:40 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: kaballah help needed Message-ID: > In message <1a616ce2.34ec5dc6@aol.com>, Bodhijack@aol.com > writes > >interested in learning of the similarities between teacings of kaballah & > >teachings of classic theosophy (i.e.unity of everything). can anyone recommend > >a book or other writings? Goodness ... the place to start would be the good old Secret Doctrine - HPB had harsh words for most of western religion, but the Kaballah and the neoplatonists seemed to be the two places that she went to over and over again as the traditions that contained at least glimpses of the Ancient Wisdom. The SD is full of similarities (and differences) between the kabbalah and "classic" theosophy. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:00:04 -0500 (EST) From: John E Mead InfoAvenue Operations Subject: Truth is higher than any religion/organization Message-ID: <01ITS0G3O2Z690OMMD@InfoAve.Net> hi - probably much of the prior arguement can be restated in the term of mistrust. the members of the tsa do not trust the leadership of the tsa. one quick solution is to hire an independent CPA firm to receive (and mail) and count the ballots in all elections. If Wheaton agrees to this simple rule, then most arguements regarding democratic control evaporate. how much easier can it be said? I will note for the record that Bart L. (upon direct question) decided that John A, Joan, and Ruben, could NOT be bothered with talking/responding to members of the theos-talk and theos-L discussion lists. why ? peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:31:36 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: In message <34EBB9D8.F98F8FEC@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >In the >United States, freedom of religion is taken very seriously; it is illegal for >the government to even ask what someone's religion is. Members of the TS are >not "registered" as to belonging to the Theosophical "religion", and Theosophy >is not listed as a religion. It is a place where people can learn more about >their OWN religions (as specified in the Mahatma letters). I follow you only in part. While theosophical ideas may help people learn more about their own religions, how does that exempt your lodge from tax? Also, many people can be interested in theosophy from a scientific or "truth" angle while holding no religious beliefs at all. For example, if the ideas of rounds and chains, time scales and worlds, seem to have a *natural* and logical basis, there is no need for religion to enter into the equation at all; eg., if reincarnation is a *fact* then belief does not enter into it. Puzzled of Britland --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:19:31 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > I follow you only in part. While theosophical ideas may help people > learn more about their own religions, how does that exempt your lodge > from tax? Also, many people can be interested in theosophy from a > scientific or "truth" angle while holding no religious beliefs at all. For > example, if the ideas of rounds and chains, time scales and worlds, > seem to have a *natural* and logical basis, there is no need for religion > to enter into the equation at all; eg., if reincarnation is a *fact* then > belief does not enter into it. Ha! You haven't yet achieved a high enough initiation - the idea of rounds and chains, the incredibly technical Theosophical details that attempt to convey the very fundamental nature of reality, and the consciousnesses that compose and inhabit it - the stuff it tooks the Masters aeons of incarnations to fully grasp ... well, as complex as all that is, it is *nothing* compared to the complexity of the US Tax Code. (-:), -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:02:27 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: An idea Message-ID: <34E919E2.FD0FD24D@gate.net> Good evening, I think John got to the crux of the problem. This is a democratic organization. Not a 'Royal' one. There is no divine right at work at the TS. Bart, don't you get it, your a member, just another member. Your protestations of importance, your continually excusing the corrupt Wheaton power structure and your silly pomposity does more to illicit distrust, frustration, and anger than a note from JA telling us all to f--- off. Of course one needs balls to defend openly ones actions. Remember the story of the blessings of the big wheels. Bart, your just another soul trying to figure it out like the rest of us. Your self anointed importance by association with the Wheatonists, is just anchored on feet of clay. Your attitude, reflective of the Wheatonists does more to undermined the TSA membership than their aloofness. Do not underestimate the power of the internet. You may find yourself speaking to more people than you can imagine. By the way, is it within the Theosophical milieu to swear false in order to avoid the tax man? Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:25:44 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <34ED13D7.5121B46@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > I follow you only in part. While theosophical ideas may help people > learn more about their own religions, how does that exempt your lodge > from tax? Also, many people can be interested in theosophy from a > scientific or "truth" angle while holding no religious beliefs at all. For > example, if the ideas of rounds and chains, time scales and worlds, > seem to have a *natural* and logical basis, there is no need for religion > to enter into the equation at all; eg., if reincarnation is a *fact* then > belief does not enter into it. But. at least according to HPB, theosophy IS religion. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:42:00 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34ED17A8.C9CBE782@sprynet.com> I have been complaining about the word twisting and slander that goes on here, and people have asked for examples. Ken Malkin has kindly provided me with an excellent example of the kind of message that appears here that keeps away those who many of you claim you want to see here: Ken Malkin wrote: > Bart, don't you get it, your a member, just another member. Your > protestations of importance, All I have ever claimed is that I give some technical help to Wheaton, and I am on the Board of Directors of the New York Lodge. Which qualifies as "protestations of importance"? > your continually excusing the corrupt > Wheaton power structure If you can prove that the power structure at Wheaton is corrupt, then why don't you go to court to have them removed, or give your evidence to someone who can, such as Sy? > and your silly pomposity Please give an example of that. > does more to illicit > distrust, frustration, and anger than a note from JA telling us all to > f--- off. So, you are saying that I am the reason for the anti-Wheaton invective on this list? > Of course one needs balls to defend openly ones actions. In other words, you do not believe that females are capable of defending their actions? > Remember the story of the blessings of the big wheels. Bart, your just > another soul trying to figure it out like the rest of us. Your self > anointed importance by association with the Wheatonists, is just > anchored on feet of clay. Your attitude, reflective of the Wheatonists > does more to undermined the TSA membership than their aloofness. Can you quote a single mention I have given of importance, other than that of giving them technical advice on their Internet service? Note that I put myself below Eldon Tucker in importance (as is correct), since he does far more technical support there than I do. > Do not underestimate the power of the internet. You may find yourself > speaking to more people than you can imagine. I do not underestimate the power of the Internet. But neither do I overestimate. > By the way, is it within the Theosophical milieu to swear false in order > to avoid the tax man? No. When did you stop beating your wife? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:29:48 +0100 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Mirors with too many blind spots Message-ID: john e. mead writes: "the members of the tsa do not trust the leadership of the tsa". Have you ever read anything like "where there is no leader, there is no one to follow"? I feel so bored here and I but lost patience - one has to speak about the same things sevenhundret times - but it doesn't seem go into peoples heads/hearts. It's incredible. I but wonder WHY the hell you don't get it. And if you do, why don't you live it? Why do you only reflect it to somebody else whom you judge to be someone who doesn't live it? I simply can't understand this - it's too high for me. However I but dreamed last night that I subscribe and that's exactly what I do. Maybe I come back one day, maybe I don't. Mazel Tov, sign. :-)) Ajax glasklar From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 03:21:08 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea or oops Message-ID: Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had no business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. In fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything smelling like politics. I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. When you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten off. I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. Thoa :) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:36:31 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980220063631.00abea10@mail.eden.com> At 12:47 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, Bart wrote: >>>clip<<< > If you can prove that the power structure at Wheaton is corrupt, then >why don't you go to court to have them removed, or give your evidence to >someone who can, such as Sy? >>clip<< > Bart Lidofsky Where does Sy come into this matter? We have not heard from him here in ages. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:37:57 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980220063757.00abaa20@mail.eden.com> At 06:24 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had no >business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. In >fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything smelling >like politics. I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. When >you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten >off. I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. > >Thoa :) > Many times input from outsiders help. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:30:45 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34ED9394.FE9BDE9F@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > At 12:47 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, Bart wrote: > >>>clip<<< > > If you can prove that the power structure at Wheaton is corrupt, then > >why don't you go to court to have them removed, or give your evidence to > >someone who can, such as Sy? > >>clip<< > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Where does Sy come into this matter? We have not heard from him here in ages. Actually, I saw a message from him here, recently. I listed him because he is a lawyer, he is unhappy with the current administration, he has shown that he is willing to put his money where his mouth is, and, from what I have seen and from his reputation, he deeply cares about the TS. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:42:47 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980220094247.00834cc0@mail.eden.com> Dear Pam: Your observations are very welcome. To many of us who have been around TS for some years input from new members like you is very refreshing. One has to look at what is happening today. Most of the leadership of TS in most countries are older ones many after having retired from a full time job. Also they belong to a different generation and who grew up in a different environment. Environment does have an effect. (We just saw the difference in attitudes between young and old in the recent town hall meeting at OSU where Clinton's top people tried to defend attacking Iraq). Age may contribute to street smartness and I wonder whether age is synonymous with Wisdom. When you look at the activities at Wheaton, do you see any "Younger Hostel" no. You see "Elder Hostel" being a success for past some years. May be the latter is bringing in the money and the former would be a money loser from a business standpoint. Your point about all being most attendees being white is well taken. In the last ten years only once that a single member of the Board of Directors mentioned in his statement when he ran for the office the need to do something to do something to attract others. I am also glad that you are a beneficiary of Internet. It is a medium that has such potential that we are yet to tap it. I think the leadership, yet to come to grips with Internet as an active tool of multi-way communication with members and others interested in Theosophy. Theosophy and TS are on very solid foundation and you are in good company. Feel free to post anything you want and we are all tuned in. mkr At 07:52 PM 2/20/1998 -0600, you wrote: >Thoa writes: >> Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had >no >> business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. In >> fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything >smelling >> like politics. I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. >When >> you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten >> off. I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. > >I enjoyed your perspective on this issue and I think many of your comments >are right on target. I've only been a member of TS for a year. My >physical world contact with TS has been through the Wheaton group and >frankly, if it wasn't for other TS contacts via this email list, I'd be >dropping my membership at next renewal. My experience of TS via Wheaton is >that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I've attended a >number of events there where I'm amoung the youngest participant --I'm 41. >Most events are geared to older participants who are content with the >passive lecturer-audience style of communication. Most attendees are >white, over 60, or generally lacking any broad-based grounding in occult, >metaphysics, or cross-religious study. All this from a group that is >centrally located >in the high-tech Silicon Prairie of the Chicago metropolitan community --an >area rich in cross-cultural diversity and sprouting many Hindu and Buddhist >centers. > >I hesitated to respond before because I've only been a member a short time. > Also, there's been a fair amont of flaming lately and I don't like >providing energy to such embers. From conversations on this list I've >become aware that there are active TS groups that are running rivers and >not stagnant ponds. This list has helped me see a broader view of TS than >the local center provides and I am thankful for that. Granted I usually >just read, but take it as a compliment --some of you are just so clever >and eloquent > > >Pam >pgiese@snd.softfarm.com > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:49:48 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Truth is higher than any religion/organization Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980220094948.00a4ee20@mail.eden.com> At 12:23 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >John E Mead InfoAvenue Operations wrote: > >> the members of the tsa do not trust the leadership >> of the tsa. > > Certainly there are members of the TSA who do not trust the >leadership, but your statement, even taken figuratively, implies a >majority. Can you expand upon that? > >> I will note for the record that Bart L. (upon direct >> question) decided that John A, Joan, and Ruben, >> could NOT be bothered with talking/responding to members >> of the theos-talk and theos-L discussion lists. > > I don't believe I ever said that; if that was inferred from what I >said, then it was inferred incorrectly. It is my belief that it would be >necessary to convince them that they would not be walking into a lynch >mob where every word they say would be twisted into unrecognizeability >and then used against them, and that would be a difficult task. > > Bart Lidofsky When HPB launched Theosophy, she used the print medium of that day. She literally entered into a situation which was not very cozy to her point of view and philosophy. Internet is a very fast moving medium (24 hours a day, and not 8-5 and postal delay of days.) It is going to require a lot of courage, skill and talent to deal with so many here who are going to respond to any statement that anyone makes, which we see every day. Hopefully there may be some gentle and courages soul who may take on the task at some time in future. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:53:45 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980220095345.009b2260@mail.eden.com> I don't recall seeing any msg from him. Would you re-post it? I am curious. mkr At 09:43 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> At 12:47 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, Bart wrote: >> >>>clip<<< >> > If you can prove that the power structure at Wheaton is corrupt, then >> >why don't you go to court to have them removed, or give your evidence to >> >someone who can, such as Sy? >> >>clip<< >> >> > Bart Lidofsky >> >> Where does Sy come into this matter? We have not heard from him here in ages. > > Actually, I saw a message from him here, recently. I listed him because he is >a lawyer, he is unhappy with the current administration, he has shown that he is >willing to put his money where his mouth is, and, from what I have seen and from >his reputation, he deeply cares about the TS. > > Bart Lidofsky > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:03:17 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980220100317.009b3ba0@mail.eden.com> At 09:43 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> At 12:47 AM 2/20/1998 -0500, Bart wrote: >> >>>clip<<< >> > If you can prove that the power structure at Wheaton is corrupt, then >> >why don't you go to court to have them removed, or give your evidence to >> >someone who can, such as Sy? >> >>clip<< >> >> > Bart Lidofsky >> >> Where does Sy come into this matter? We have not heard from him here in ages. > > Actually, I saw a message from him here, recently. I listed him because he is >a lawyer, he is unhappy with the current administration, he has shown that he is >willing to put his money where his mouth is, and, from what I have seen and from >his reputation, he deeply cares about the TS. > > Bart Lidofsky "he is willing to put him money where his mouth is" Can you elaborate on this? Where and when and what for did he put his money? I just would like to know. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:14:23 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34EDB9EF.F9EA4F8C@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > I don't recall seeing any msg from him. Would you re-post it? I am curious. > I trashed it (nothing personal against him; I only keep messages if they contain information that I will need at a later date). It MAY have been a personal reply to something I wrote here, however. I don't pay too close attention to the headers. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:15:36 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34EDBA38.8D8A0C69@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > "he is willing to put him money where his mouth is" > > Can you elaborate on this? Where and when and what for did he put his > money? I just would like to know. When, for example, there was a by-law change with which he disagreed, and personally sent letters to every Lodge in the country giving his point of view. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:07:47 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: HQ vs. lodges (re: Pam's comments) Message-ID: <199802201807.NAA14010@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Hey gang, I'll comment on a few other posts since I have to copy the whole thing in order to reply to Pam's, but hers is the one that most interests me. Bart asks Ken: > > If you can prove that the power structure at Wheaton is corrupt, then > why don't you go to court to have them removed, or give your evidence to > someone who can, such as Sy? Corruption doesn't necessarily mean illegality. If the real purposes of the TS are subverted by a minority with a hidden agenda, that corrupts the organization but may not be illegal. If relevant information is routinely withheld from members, rendering the democratic process subject to manipulation by the in-group, that's also corruption of our democracy, without necessarily being legally actionable. Nicole asks John: > > Have you ever read anything like "where there is no leader, > there is no one to follow"? Could you explain this? > > I feel so bored here and I but lost patience - one has to speak > about the same things sevenhundret times - but it doesn't seem > go into peoples heads/hearts. Guess not, Nicole, because I don't have a clue what you've said 700 times-- and am generally a pretty good reader. It's incredible. I but wonder > WHY the hell you don't get it. Maybe because it was said so elliptically, just like the present message, that people didn't know what you were saying? And if you do, why don't you > live it? Why do you only reflect it to somebody else whom > you judge to be someone who doesn't live it? I simply can't > understand this - it's too high for me. FYI John Mead has been on this list for 4 years and has never piped up with a single word of criticism of Wheaton until the last few weeks. Let up on him. Thoa wrote: > > Upon reflection and seeing the various responses, I realized that I had no > business making comments on TS politics or getting involved with it. In > fact, I actually have no desire to get anywhere close to anything smelling > like politics. I'll keep myself away from those topics from now on. While I understand your sentiments, as I once shared them, this kind of avoidance of political engagement simply allows the leaders to think they can get away with anything at all. Since Theosophists tend to be pretty passive and avoidant of conflict, this has made Algeo think we want/need a spiritual dictator. How to prove him wrong without dirtying our hands politically? Now for Pam's comments: > >dropping my membership at next renewal. My experience of TS via Wheaton is > >that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I've attended a > >number of events there where I'm amoung the youngest participant --I'm 41. If it's any comfort to you, I've visited several lodges and study centers and they haven't been at all like that. If Wheaton were truly representative of the membership, I'd not belong. But while there are many good people there and I don't mean to diss them, Theosophy in Wheaton is generally much more inward-looking, exclusivist, traditionalist, than I've seen in the field. > >passive lecturer-audience style of communication. Most attendees are > >white, over 60, or generally lacking any broad-based grounding in occult, > >metaphysics, or cross-religious study. That too is different from what I've seen in lodges/study centers. > > > >I hesitated to respond before because I've only been a member a short time. > > Also, there's been a fair amont of flaming lately and I don't like > >providing energy to such embers. From conversations on this list I've > >become aware that there are active TS groups that are running rivers and > >not stagnant ponds. which has hopeful implications for the entire Society. Miami lodge, which I have not visited, is a particularly shining example of a thriving group. Is it any coincidence that it is among the most dissatisfied with the national administration? Finally, I must say in Bart's defense that while I regard him as a political adversary vis-a-vis attitudes about the Algeo administration (to refer to "Wheaton" as synonymous with Algeo and his fans is quite unfair to the staff there), I still like him and consider him an honorable opponent. Also open to evidence, despite his apparent knee-jerk defensiveness of the powers that be. Bart may change his mind yet. Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:23:59 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea or oops Message-ID: Hi Pam, You've been attending TS meetings for a year! Well, then, you have more fortitude than I have. We attended one meeting in San Francisco, and I felt like I was back in the Victorian era. This is not to do a disservice to the people. The people at the meeting were very nice. I try to not judge people by their age, but I did notice that there is only one other young person at the meeting. The meeting was supposed to be about relation to the X-Files. I thought, hey, a fail-safe and fun topic for a first meeting! But, nooooo. What I had a problem with was the rigid quality of the meeting. A bell was rung to start the meeting, one person read passages from various books (nothing related to the X-Files), we had a discussion, a bell was rung to start meditation, and then a bell was rung to stop the meditation. I felt like Pavlov's dog, having to respond to bells. And who can meditate during that time frame? The meeting was so rigid, no proper words could come naturally out of my mouth. I couldn't even ask, "Uh, what about the X-Files?" Lastly, someone ought to have sent in Gianni Versace to do the decor! With the environment and pictures of 19th century people, I was expecting an organ mysteriously playing in the corner. I did like their Buddha room, and the tons of theosophical books in their library. I agree with you regarding the weird contrast of the lodge and the metropolitan environment. San Francisco is a place of coffee houses and the birthplace of the Beatniks. We hang out with trendy artists and designers, some who are also musicians. We are easy with our speech and attitude. I can make crass jokes, and others will just flow with it. Some of the attitudes I've seen, that I don't like, on the theosophical lists are those of the generation of the stern parent: shame, shame, do as I say and not as I do, children should be seen and not heard, and institutional dogmatism. I have a good idea why most theosophists seem white and older. The attitude is rigid Victorian. People with a lively cultural heritage, e.g. African-Americans, Hispanics, would not be interested in such an environment. Maya Angelou would do a massive house redecorating if she was President of a lodge. I already mentioned several reasons why the young would not be interested. If it wasn't for my interest in theosophy and my appreciation of the fine minds of theosophists, I would have disassociate myself from t/Theosophy a long time ago. As always, have fun, Pam! Thoa :o) Pam: >I enjoyed your perspective on this issue and I think many of your comments >are right on target. I've only been a member of TS for a year. My >physical world contact with TS has been through the Wheaton group and >frankly, if it wasn't for other TS contacts via this email list, I'd be >dropping my membership at next renewal. My experience of TS via Wheaton is >that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I've attended a >number of events there where I'm amoung the youngest participant --I'm 41. >Most events are geared to older participants who are content with the >passive lecturer-audience style of communication. Most attendees are >white, over 60, or generally lacking any broad-based grounding in occult, >metaphysics, or cross-religious study. All this from a group that is >centrally located >in the high-tech Silicon Prairie of the Chicago metropolitan community --an >area rich in cross-cultural diversity and sprouting many Hindu and Buddhist >centers. > >I hesitated to respond before because I've only been a member a short time. > Also, there's been a fair amont of flaming lately and I don't like >providing energy to such embers. From conversations on this list I've >become aware that there are active TS groups that are running rivers and >not stagnant ponds. This list has helped me see a broader view of TS than >the local center provides and I am thankful for that. Granted I usually >just read, but take it as a compliment --some of you are just so clever >and eloquent > > >Pam >pgiese@snd.softfarm.com > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:24:57 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980220192457.00d40c7c@mail.eden.com> At 12:20 PM 2/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> I don't recall seeing any msg from him. Would you re-post it? I am curious. >> > > I trashed it (nothing personal against him; I only keep messages if they >contain information that I will need at a later date). It MAY have been a >personal reply to something I wrote here, however. I don't pay too close >attention to the headers. > > Bart Lidofsky No problem. I just was not sure whether I missed the msg, because to my knowledge I have not seen any msg on theos-l or theos-talk from him recently. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:24:55 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980220192455.00d3f5a0@mail.eden.com> At 12:20 PM 2/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> "he is willing to put him money where his mouth is" >> >> Can you elaborate on this? Where and when and what for did he put his >> money? I just would like to know. > > When, for example, there was a by-law change with which he disagreed, and >personally sent letters to every Lodge in the country giving his point of view. > > Bart Lidofsky I do remember that. I wondered whether there have been any other recent action from him you know of. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:25:10 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: HQ vs. lodges (re: Pam's comments) Message-ID: <34EE02C6.B1D40FB0@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > FYI John Mead has been on this list for 4 years and has never > piped up with a single word of criticism of Wheaton until the > last few weeks. Let up on him. He also kindly runs this list. He (along with you and a few others) has never made any claim without good information backing it that I know of, which is why, when he said that the TSA leadership does not have the support of the TSA members, I asked him to expand rather than to explain or prove his statement. > which has hopeful implications for the entire Society. Miami > lodge, which I have not visited, is a particularly shining > example of a thriving group. Is it any coincidence that it is > among the most dissatisfied with the national administration? In my opinion, Miami is fulfilling the 3 objects quite well. The only complaint based in fact that I have heard is that their traditional theosophical presentations tend not to attract audiences. My in-laws live near there, and, from the Miami Lodge, they had the impression that Theosophy was just a conglomeration of various "newage" disciplines. Yet, Theosophy can certainly be taught THROUGH other subjects (which is part of what I was trying to explain with the recent quotes from John Algeo supposedly subverting the purpose of the TS). When the New York Lodge started expanding its public program, the Lodge President started forwarding to me copies of the Miami Lodge's program, for the purpose of getting ideas. One of their programs, examining the spiritual side of Star Trek, gave me the idea of having a monthly movie night, where we would rent a movie with Theosophical themes, show it to an audience of members (I originally wanted it to be public, but that would have involved paying prohibitively large fees to show the movies, while making it members-only eliminated that problem), and have a discussion about the Theosophical implications of the movie. National later started something similar; I do not know if they got it from us. Movies that were particularly successful were "Groundhog Day", "Monty Python's The Life of Brian", "Babe", "Lost Horizon" (the original), and "Phenomenon/" > Finally, I must say in Bart's defense that while I regard him as > a political adversary vis-a-vis attitudes about the Algeo > administration (to refer to "Wheaton" as synonymous with Algeo > and his fans is quite unfair to the staff > there), I still like him and consider him an honorable opponent. And I still like you, too, and consider you to be honorable, and not necessarily an opponent. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:17:19 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: <34EE0EFF.3DA9B3C5@sprynet.com> Thoa Tran wrote: > I agree with you regarding the weird contrast of the lodge and the > metropolitan environment. San Francisco is a place of coffee houses and > the birthplace of the Beatniks. The Beatnik movement started at Columbia University, in New York City, with Jack Kerouac, Alan Ginsburg, et al. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:18:49 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34EE0F59.D6DA539C@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > I do remember that. I wondered whether there have been any other recent > action from him you know of. Last I heard, he ran for Southeast Directorship (and I don't remember if he won or lost). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:14:09 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: kaballah help needed Message-ID: In message <34ECC5BC.5D524087@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > How about a book by a theosophist on the kaballah: Dion Fortune's THE >MYSTICAL QABALA. Don't forget to buy it at a Quest Bookshop! A good intro, but very dated, and contains what is now kown to be inaccurate information. A good buy nonetheless. If you are new to the list or theosophy, don't look for a Quest Bookshop on every street corner, but never fear, any occult bookseller should be able to supply it! Diond Fortune's terminology is useful, as she was a theosophist before she specialised in Qabalah. The difference in spelling is idiosyncratic. She left the Theosophical Society around the time she established the Society of the Inner Light. which still functions in the UK, but with *very* different ideas. If you are buying books, also look for Halevi: "The Way of Kabbalah." He was never a theosophist. Also known as Warren Kenton, he has a number of Kabbalist titles to his credit, including his intro under Kenton, "The Tree of Life." I can recommend a great many books on this subject (my life's work). Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:19:07 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: In message <34ED13D7.5121B46@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > But. at least according to HPB, theosophy IS religion. So why does TS literature often say that membership is open to people of any religion or *none*? If your remark above is a direct quote, she does not say that theosophy is *A* religion. Admittedly, *theos* [god] plus *sophia* [wisdom] implies (!) something *religious* and clearly many theosophists of the CWL/Besant era *did* see theosophy as a religion, and even a religious denomination of a kind. Unfortunately, if we are to base the whole thing upon the writings of the [alleged] masters [which they do not seem to have claimed to be] the famous letter X emphatically denies that *their* view, at least, allows for a god, let alone one whose pronoun "begins with a capital H." Ergo, "theosophy" was not the best choice of word, or, the masters were saying something different from HPB .... Confusing, ain't it folks .... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:31:38 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: HQ vs. lodges (re: Pam's comments) Message-ID: In message <34EE02C6.B1D40FB0@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > In my opinion, Miami is fulfilling the 3 objects quite well. The only >complaint based in fact that I have heard is that their traditional theosophical >presentations tend not to attract audiences. My in-laws live near there, and, >from >the Miami Lodge, they had the impression that Theosophy was just a >conglomeration >of various "newage" disciplines. Yet, Theosophy can certainly be taught >THROUGH >other subjects (which is part of what I was trying to explain with the recent >quotes from John Algeo supposedly subverting the purpose of the TS). Errr ... I know of no requirement in the three objects that requires theosophy per se to be *taught*. The TI objectives *do* ask members to make a commitment to *study* - but what they study is up to them. That's a big difference. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:34:32 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: In message <3.0.3.32.19980220063631.00abea10@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >Where does Sy come into this matter? We have not heard from him here in >ages. > >mkr Yes, it is very curious. He used to be an active and most useful contributor to the list. Are you still out there, Sy? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:23:34 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: In message <3.0.3.32.19980220094247.00834cc0@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >My experience of TS via Wheaton is >>that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I've attended a >>number of events there where I'm amoung the youngest participant --I'm 41. Now there's something to think about .. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:40:20 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >If it wasn't for my interest in theosophy and my appreciation of the fine >minds of theosophists, I would have disassociate myself from t/Theosophy a >long time ago. > >As always, have fun, Pam! Right on, Thoa! If it isn't fun, we're doing it wrong! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:42:17 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: In message <34EE0EFF.3DA9B3C5@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > The Beatnik movement started at Columbia University, in New York City, >with >Jack Kerouac, Alan Ginsburg, et al. Interesting, if off topic slightly :-). Could you give a time frame? I was a kind of beatnik in London in 1956-8! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:20:59 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: In message , JRC writes >Ha! You haven't yet achieved a high enough initiation - the idea of rounds >and chains, the incredibly technical Theosophical details that attempt to >convey the very fundamental nature of reality, and the consciousnesses >that compose and inhabit it - the stuff it tooks the Masters aeons of >incarnations to fully grasp ... well, as complex as all that is, it is >*nothing* compared to the complexity of the US Tax Code. (-:), -JRC I shall sit humbly at your feet ...... Alan :-))))))) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:33:24 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >When >you stick your nose where it doesn't belong, you risk it getting bitten >off. I think I'll go read some writings by Lao Tsu and Krisnamurti. Maybe your nose *does* belong ? Alan [Nose intact] --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:37:01 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: An idea Message-ID: <34EE59ED.9BD05838@gate.net> Bart, Sy Ginsburg has not written on this list for more than a year. He told me you are mistaken, he has no memory or reason to have contacted you in any manner. You may insert "Chutzpa" for balls. I believe that is gender neutral enough. By the way, have you ever asked yourself why you are always on the defensive here? As to Wheatons structure, if it is round, brown, rolls down hill and is malodorous, can you think what it is. How do JA & Co. justify their actions when they will brook no democratic process in their imperial rule?. Does the profound reduction in membership, nationally and internationally, the ouster of Lodges and whole countrys not tell us something? Can one not see that the ES has control of the entire officer corp and BOD at Wheaton & Adjar? Your certainly cannot deny the truth of this. By the way, are you ES Bart? The Wheatonists are more polished and refined in their manner, but remove six or eight layers of armour and they act as you do. Think on this before you puff out your pride filled chest. Your oft use eptithet speaks volumes to your personal approach "If you can prove that the power structure at Wheaton is corrupt, then why don't you go to court to have them removed, or give your evidence to someone who can, such as Sy?" this approach, repetitious as it is, further indicates the weakness of your position. Your "traditionalist" mentality is ... to abide. E.G. Gardner states rather nicely what happens to those who remain bound up in the first round (chosen, tradition etc.) of the current root race. "But. at least according to HPB, theosophy IS religion." Bart, where may I find this please? Your childish rejoinder to YOUR self described justification to the tax man of your "Religious status" speaks volumes. Lastly, why do you always resort to school yard banter as retort? May I take your interest in my wife as affirmation of some inadequacy? Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:57:34 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980220225734.00b67620@mail.eden.com> Alan: the quote is from Pam, not me... ..doss At 09:22 PM 2/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In message <3.0.3.32.19980220094247.00834cc0@mail.eden.com>, >M K Ramadoss writes >>My experience of TS via Wheaton is >>>that of a stagnant organization stuck in the 19th century. I've attended a >>>number of events there where I'm amoung the youngest participant --I'm 41. > >Now there's something to think about .. > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:15:02 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Importance of Open Communication Message-ID: <34EE62D6.322692D3@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <34ED13D7.5121B46@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > > But. at least according to HPB, theosophy IS religion. > > So why does TS literature often say that membership is open to people > of any religion or *none*? If your remark above is a direct quote, she > does not say that theosophy is *A* religion. Correct. The quote (from the article "Is Theosophy A Religion", found in her collected writings, or the excellent collection, H. P. B. TEACHES) is, "Theosophy is not a religion. Theosophy IS religion". > Ergo, "theosophy" was not the best choice of word, or, the masters > were saying something different from HPB .... My belief is that new knowledge obeys the 2nd principle, and comes in cycles. New science is found, upsetting the world-view of people, and causing new philosophies. Then things settle down, and the philosophies become religion. But then it is discovered that the old science is just a special case of a more general science, kicking off the cycle again. Theosophy was found during a religious phase of the cycle, hence its religious leaning in the early days. Unfortunately, we have since gone through a science phase and are at the beginning of a philosophy phase, while many old-line Theosophists have remained in the religious phase (a notable exception was Fritz Kunz' and Emily Sellon's MAIN CURRENTS IN MODERN THOUGHT, which brought together prominent scientists and philosophers who were sympathetic towards theosophical thought). In any case, to complete the answer to your questions, in the United States, a religious educational organization does not have to be, and seldom is, a place for religious indoctrination (those that do so are generally registered as religious groups), but can be an ecumenical organization, as well. We did not lie to the judge, nor concealed any truth, and we were considered to be a religious educational organization. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:17:03 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: HQ vs. lodges (re: Pam's comments) Message-ID: <34EE634E.E77ACA20@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <34EE02C6.B1D40FB0@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > > In my opinion, Miami is fulfilling the 3 objects quite well. The only > >complaint based in fact that I have heard is that their traditional theosophical > >presentations tend not to attract audiences. My in-laws live near there, and, > >from > >the Miami Lodge, they had the impression that Theosophy was just a > >conglomeration > >of various "newage" disciplines. Yet, Theosophy can certainly be taught > >THROUGH > >other subjects (which is part of what I was trying to explain with the recent > >quotes from John Algeo supposedly subverting the purpose of the TS). > > Errr ... I know of no requirement in the three objects that requires > theosophy per se to be *taught*. Note I said complaint based in fact, not valid complaint. I have heard numerous specious complaints, as well. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:43:48 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: <34EE6994.FC8C3780@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <34EE0EFF.3DA9B3C5@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > > The Beatnik movement started at Columbia University, in New York City, > >with > >Jack Kerouac, Alan Ginsburg, et al. > > Interesting, if off topic slightly :-). Could you give a time frame? I was > a kind of beatnik in London in 1956-8! My roommate in my college freshman year (and frequent partner when I was a professional folksinger) was a major fan of Jack Kerouac, and was authorized by Kerouac's family to write a biography, so I was kind of immersed by osmosis. In addition, when Allen Ginsberg did a poetry reading for WKCR, he and I edited it to make it comply with FCC rules. I had the brilliant idea to backmask all the dirty words, which worked well until we came to the phrase "cock and c**t." Do you know what "cock" is, backmasked? "Cock." Sigh. In any case, there were a group of friends in New York, centering around a brilliant young man named Neal Cassady. It included William Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg, as well. They met in the 1940's, but moved to San Francisco in the 1950's. It was around 1950 that the term "The Beat Generation" was used among the followers of this group, and it was in 1952 that the term entered the public. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:06:21 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea or oops Message-ID: >In message <34EE0EFF.3DA9B3C5@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes >> The Beatnik movement started at Columbia University, in New York City, >>with >>Jack Kerouac, Alan Ginsburg, et al. > >Interesting, if off topic slightly :-). Could you give a time frame? I was >a kind of beatnik in London in 1956-8! > >Alan (Imaginary sound of bongos ...) Yeah, Bartman, like, they might have caught a buzz at Columbia, but they partied hardy in San Francisco! {8-L> (Smoking Daddy-O smiley) (Echoing sound of tambourine ...) Papa Alan, they grooved the first beat in 1944, and danced 'til they dropped in the 60's. Oobie schoobie... -Thoa Baby :o) Dark, dark, dark blackness beat the street ... Alan and Bart, Tathagatas unknowing. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:05:30 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea or oops Message-ID: Alan: >Maybe your nose *does* belong ? the trouble with belonging ... is that half the time ... it's only stinky tuna fish. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:06:42 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea or oops Message-ID: Alan: >>As always, have fun, Pam! > >Right on, Thoa! If it isn't fun, we're doing it wrong! > >Alan :-) Alright, Daddy-O. You're the epitome of why one should not judge age. You're forever young. Not that I think 64 is ancient. I see plenty of active 64 year olds. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:12:06 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34EE7036.8BFDA62F@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > Lastly, why do you always resort to school yard banter as retort? May I > take your interest in my wife as affirmation of some inadequacy? "When did you stop beating your wife" is a commonly used expression to describe a question for which a simple answer would require false self-incrimination, by taking as given the guilt of the party being asked. The most insidious kind of lie is the one which is 10% innocent truth; when one attacks the lie, the attacker can stick by the true part, implying that if part of the lie is correct, then the rest must be as well. And if the victim ignores the lie, then the victim is tacitly admitting to it. You ask why I think I find myself on the defensive so often. I'll tell you: because people like you make it so unpleasant for anybody who dares to disagree with your own personal view that the theosophical discussion is not worth the agita, and they drop out, so that all that is left are people who don't agree with you, people who don't care, and people who delude themselves into thinking that there is something worthwhile here, myself being the last group. As far as any connection I have with the E.S., I have answered that question in detail here in the past. However, since you clearly don't read most of my messages, but just decide ahead of time what I am going to say, you probably missed those. It is an ill wind that blows no good, however. I am impressed with the amount of support I have received since you started this campaign. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:11:29 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Miami Message-ID: <34EE7010.C9ED4B6A@gate.net> > …which has hopeful implications for the entire Society. Miami > lodge, which I have not visited, is a particularly shining > example of a thriving group. Is it any coincidence that it is > among the most dissatisfied with the national administration? > John Mead Update Miami (Deerfield Beach), Chartered in 1912 by Annie Besant: Starting with our move from Miami four years ago with a core group of 25, our 90 Plus members have an interest in a veritable cornucopia of ideas. From Astrology to Zen, classes, workshops and programs are presented most nights, weekends and at our Sunday “Speakers Forum” which is our public meeting. Our library, consisting of 3000++ titles is available free of charge to all members. It reflects the rather eclectic view we have of theosophy and is used frequently by many. Our bookstore, open to the public stocks a large selection of titles. Some of the authors presented include Alice Bailey and travel to Yoga Ramacharaka. Of course, you can find the entire works of HPB and many other well known theosophical writers stocked on our shelves. Our traditional theosophical classes and programs are attended by a lessor number of people than other groups (3-5 attendees). While the reasons for poor attendance vary, we maintain a prominent place in our program for the dissemination of traditional Theosophy. Those who wish to explore Theosophical concepts, find several courses throughout the week available to them. Unlike our well attended public program on Sunday (35-50 attendees), the reasons for poor turn out at theosophical classes may be our own inability to make the information interesting enough. The Secret Doctrine class is the one well attended theosophical effort. It meets each Sunday and has a turn out between 8 and10 . Three years ago, Linda Clarin, a “Star Trek” enthusiast started giving a class on the “Spiritual Reality of Star Trek” it was well attended, and proved among other things, Gene Rodenberry was a deeply soul filled man, ‘Spocks’ ears were kind of funky and purposeful, and that the scripts always had a higher message. Within a short time, Star Trek bore a sequel, it was our weekly “Movies With A Theosophical Touch” presented to the members with the public invited. The movie on Friday night usually had 20++ members and public attendees. We rented a movie of common interest at a local emporium, requested a free will donation, usually a dollar or two is contributed and had a discussion of varying lengths after the presentation. Some discussions were so intense they went past midnight. While the list of movies is overlong, from the obvious ‘Ground Hog Day’ to the obscure ‘Dune’, we had great success. Unfortunately, Linda married and moved to Chicago. It is planed to have the movie night begin again soon. Several social events during the year are sponsored by our lodge. The most recent, a Valentine Night singles soiree had more than 70 people enjoy the festivities. If anyone wishes a copy of our bulletin, please let me know. I will be glad to put you on the mailing list. Ken Malkin, Ist Vice President The Theosophical Society in Miami and South Florida Inc. ************************************************************************* The following was snipped from theos-l # 1433. > Last I heard, he (edit Sy Ginsburg) ran for Southeast Directorship (and I don't > > remember if he won or lost). > Bart Lidofsky Bart spoke to Sy Ginsburg having run for Southeast Director. I believe he well and truly remembers the result of that stolen election. To those of you who may not know what happened, the entire TSA membership was given a ballott to vote for the illegal National by-law changes. After the vote, not audited and with no one outside the BOD in attendance for the count, thus assuring victory, the by-laws were passed. All members who had the right to vote for the by-law changes were sent ballots for the national office and BOD elections soon after. When the votes were counted, once again not audited, those members with less than two years active membership had their votes voided. Sy lost the election by fewer than 50 votes. 78 ballots were thrown out from our lodge alone. It was obvious to everyone who was disenfranchised, this was another of the loathsome tricks promulgated by the Wheatonists in their effort to control the TSA. 18 members of our lodge subsequently resigned many expressing disgust at the way they had been treated. Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:51:10 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Miami Message-ID: <34EE795D.67B75231@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > Within a short time, Star Trek bore a sequel, it was our weekly > “Movies With A Theosophical Touch” presented to the members with the > public invited. The movie on Friday night usually had 20++ members and > public attendees. We rented a movie of common interest at a local > emporium, requested a free will donation, usually a dollar or two is > contributed and had a discussion of varying lengths after the > presentation. Some discussions were so intense they went past midnight. > While the list of movies is overlong, from the obvious ‘Ground Hog Day’ > to the obscure ‘Dune’, we had great success. Unfortunately, Linda > married and moved to Chicago. It is planed to have the movie night begin > again soon. One word of advice, if you are willing to listen. If you show rented videotapes to the general public, whether or not you charge admission, you are in violation of their copyright (at least according to the copyright lawyers at Matthew Bender). You can get permission by paying a fee ot the proper organization (whose name escapes me at the moment), but the fee, last time I looked (about 4 years ago) was $1200 a year. If you don't advertise the movies in a public brochure then it is unlikely that anything bad will happen. If you do, then you may get into trouble. Luckily, copyright owners have the option of not pursuing legal action against violators without losing copyright protection, as opposed to trademark owners, so they may ignore you anyway. In New York, we decided that it would be wrong to violate copyright that way. In any case check with Sy for verification, and to see if things have changed in the last 4 years. > Bart spoke to Sy Ginsburg having run for Southeast Director. I believe > he well and truly remembers the result of that stolen election. I really and truly didn't. This is the first I am hearing about it. > All members who had the right to vote for the by-law changes were sent > ballots for the national office and BOD elections soon after. When the > votes were counted, once again not audited, those members with less than > two years active membership had their votes voided. Sy lost the election > by fewer than 50 votes. 78 ballots were thrown out from our lodge alone. Two points. One is that a rule that is generally ignored should not be enforced on a situation by situation basis (it either should apply ot all, or to none). Now, speaking ON A STRICTLY TECHNICAL BASIS, according to the International rules, those who have been members for less than 2 years do not have the right to vote in TS elections, even at the Lodge level (there's a copy of the TS by-laws on Dr. Bain's web page). Was this standard applied nationwide? Was there prior announcement that it would be? If the answer to either of these is "no", then you definitely have cause to complain. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 03:02:44 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <199802211004.DAA06073@server.umt.edu> > The most insidious kind of lie is the one which is 10% innocent truth; >when one attacks the lie, the attacker can stick by the true part, implying >that if part of the lie is correct, then the rest must be as well. And if >the victim ignores the lie, then the victim is tacitly admitting to it. Yes! For instance, "The bylaw changes are really only housekeeping changes". >You ask why I think I find myself on the defensive so often. I'll tell you: >because people like you make it so unpleasant for anybody who dares to >disagree with your own personal view that the theosophical discussion is not >worth the agita, and they drop out, so that all that is left are people who >don't agree with you, people who don't care, and people who delude >themselves into thinking that there is something worthwhile here, myself >being the last group. Or perhaps because you defend a group of people as being good and kind and well-intentioned, on a list containing a number of people who have very personal experience of considerably different behaviour. I do, however, like the smooth adoption of the victim role - Wheaton uses it most effectively as well. It is "unpleasent" on this list for anyone that dares disagree with one's personal view? *Who* has all the power here? It may be unpleasent for *you* on *this list* ... but try "disagreeing" with Wheaton's view of Theosophy ... you don't even get the *unpleasentness* of a response ... you simply get locked out of all Theosophical publications and offices ... and then when you complain here ... in one of the few places you *can't* get locked out of - you're accused of being intolerant of ideas you don't agree with. Good argument - around 10% true I'd say. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:09:21 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980221070921.00b53220@mail.eden.com> At 01:56 AM 2/21/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Ken Malkin wrote: > >> Within a short time, Star Trek bore a sequel, it was our weekly >> “Movies With A Theosophical Touch” presented to the members with the >> public invited. The movie on Friday night usually had 20++ members and >> public attendees. We rented a movie of common interest at a local >> emporium, requested a free will donation, usually a dollar or two is >> contributed and had a discussion of varying lengths after the >> presentation. Some discussions were so intense they went past midnight. >> While the list of movies is overlong, from the obvious ‘Ground Hog Day’ >> to the obscure ‘Dune’, we had great success. Unfortunately, Linda >> married and moved to Chicago. It is planed to have the movie night begin >> again soon. > > One word of advice, if you are willing to listen. If you show rented >videotapes to the general public, whether or not you charge admission, you >are in violation of their copyright (at least according to the copyright >lawyers at Matthew Bender). You can get permission by paying a fee ot the >proper organization (whose name escapes me at the moment), but the fee, last >time I looked (about 4 years ago) was $1200 a year. If you don't advertise >the movies in a public brochure then it is unlikely that anything bad will >happen. If you do, then you may get into trouble. Luckily, copyright owners >have the option of not pursuing legal action against violators without losing >copyright protection, as opposed to trademark owners, so they may ignore you >anyway. In New York, we decided that it would be wrong to violate copyright >that way. In any case check with Sy for verification, and to see if things >have changed in the last 4 years. > >> Bart spoke to Sy Ginsburg having run for Southeast Director. I believe >> he well and truly remembers the result of that stolen election. > > I really and truly didn't. This is the first I am hearing about it. > >> All members who had the right to vote for the by-law changes were sent >> ballots for the national office and BOD elections soon after. When the >> votes were counted, once again not audited, those members with less than >> two years active membership had their votes voided. Sy lost the election >> by fewer than 50 votes. 78 ballots were thrown out from our lodge alone. > > Two points. One is that a rule that is generally ignored should not be >enforced on a situation by situation basis (it either should apply ot all, or >to none). Now, speaking ON A STRICTLY TECHNICAL BASIS, according to the >International rules, those who have been members for less than 2 years do not >have the right to vote in TS elections, even at the Lodge level (there's a >copy of the TS by-laws on Dr. Bain's web page). Was this standard applied >nationwide? Was there prior announcement that it would be? If the answer to >either of these is "no", then you definitely have cause to complain. > > Bart Lidofsky The issue on the voting rights was that those who had voting rights at the time of the amendment of the bylaws lost it when the bylaws were passed. There were a lot of msgs here and exchange of correspondence with Wheaton on this. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:25:12 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980221072512.00935900@mail.eden.com> At 05:12 AM 2/21/1998 -0500, you wrote: > >> The most insidious kind of lie is the one which is 10% innocent truth; >>when one attacks the lie, the attacker can stick by the true part, implying >>that if part of the lie is correct, then the rest must be as well. And if >>the victim ignores the lie, then the victim is tacitly admitting to it. > Yes! For instance, "The bylaw changes are really only housekeeping >changes". Almost a year before the bylaws changes were published, just before the previous annual meeting, I sent a note to Wheaton asking if there was any plan to change any bylaws. I got an immediate defensive response. Also at that time I was also not aware that a committee was working on the bylaws changes. I was also questioned my letter seem to raise the question of trust of Wheaton. When the bylaws change was published, I was indeed surprised. I immediately wanted to talk to the chairperson of the committee who was also a member of BOD and when I called Wheaton asked for her telephone number (which is not a previleged or private info) I was told all they can do was to relay my msg and the person had to call me back. I immediately scoured my TS correspondence files and was able to find a listing of all the officers with their addresses and telephone numbers and I did immediately call the chairperson and talked to her. > > >>You ask why I think I find myself on the defensive so often. I'll tell you: >>because people like you make it so unpleasant for anybody who dares to >>disagree with your own personal view that the theosophical discussion is >not >>worth the agita, and they drop out, so that all that is left are people who >>don't agree with you, people who don't care, and people who delude >>themselves into thinking that there is something worthwhile here, myself >>being the last group. > Or perhaps because you defend a group of people as being good and kind >and well-intentioned, on a list containing a number of people who have very >personal experience of considerably different behaviour. > I do, however, like the smooth adoption of the victim role - Wheaton >uses it most effectively as well. It is "unpleasent" on this list for anyone >that dares disagree with one's personal view? *Who* has all the power here? >It may be unpleasent for *you* on *this list* ... but try "disagreeing" with >Wheaton's view of Theosophy ... you don't even get the *unpleasentness* of a >response ... you simply get locked out of all Theosophical publications and >offices ... and then when you complain here ... in one of the few places you >*can't* get locked out of - you're accused of being intolerant of ideas you >don't agree with. > Good argument - around 10% true I'd say. -JRC A clear cut example was the case of Carl Stillman. He was a long time member and had been on the Board of Directors and other committees several times. When he died, there was a small paragraph about his passing in the AT. On the contrary when his wife died, there was big write up even though she did not hold any national office, elected or otherwise to the best of my knowledge. Everyone wondered why. Marginalizing was simply because Carl did disagree with Wheaton policies and acted on it. I think the issue was that surrounded Bing Escudero. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:40:33 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet as a Unifier Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980221094033.00835920@mail.eden.com> I have always felt that Internet is going to have a very far reaching effect on the everyone. Its effect is already being felt by those who are interested in Theosophy. Whether this is recognized by the organizations and their leaders is still unclear. A case in point. When I lived in a large city in India, there was a ULT Lodge and three TS Adyar lodges. The largest TS Lodge and the ULT were within two miles of each other. Both were quite active. In spite of this, the active members of either were not familiar with each others. Much less in all the 13 years I lived, I did not see a single instance they had any joint effort or joint program. I had attended meetings of both the Lodges - TS Adyar and ULT, as a novice not familiar with territorial issues of the organizations. Lo and behold, after two decades I got interested in Internet e-mail lists. And what do we find? Those interested in Theosophy, belonging to any of the organizations as or none interacting and exchanging ideas, discussing various issues and each one is having Theosophy in their hearts. Of course, the leadership, especially the TS Adyar is following the old model. Have we seen any of the elected officials here or on any other non censored maillists or newsgroups? Let us be charitable, in that most of them belong to the old generation and grew up in pre-computer culture and it is difficult to make cultural adjustment and deal with the new medium. On a personal level, each one of us is dealing with others without the walls of organizations that tend to separate. Today if I were to visit the city in India, it is very easy for me to visit the lodges of both TS Adyar and ULT and the membership there would welcome me as a fellow T/theosophist rather than as a T/theosophist belonging to the one or the other organization. This breakthrough is something that is stunning and that has been accomplished by Internet in a short time. >From this example, I see immense potential of Internet to spread Theosophy as well as unify all of us who are interested in Theosophy. My 0.02 MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:21:58 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An idea Message-ID: <34EEFF26.7A55960E@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > > The most insidious kind of lie is the one which is 10% innocent truth; > >when one attacks the lie, the attacker can stick by the true part, implying > >that if part of the lie is correct, then the rest must be as well. And if > >the victim ignores the lie, then the victim is tacitly admitting to it. > Yes! For instance, "The bylaw changes are really only housekeeping > changes". When I was first informed about them, I was told that they were serious and important changes, with detailed reasons behind them. However, I have been reminded that I was told, not by National Headquarters, but by John Sellon, since after the death of Emily Sellon I became the de facto administrator of the New York Lodge's by-laws. > Or perhaps because you defend a group of people as being good and kind > and well-intentioned, on a list containing a number of people who have very > personal experience of considerably different behaviour. Or, with people who automatically conclude that if John Algeo says, "Have a nice day", that he is trying to steal everybody's right to have a lousy day, I am merely trying to point out that there are other possibilities. As Paul Johnson has pointed out, I can be and have been convinced in specific instances, when presented with real evidence. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:31:55 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Miami Message-ID: <34EF017B.15E823A9@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > The issue on the voting rights was that those who had voting rights at the > time of the amendment of the bylaws lost it when the bylaws were passed. > There were a lot of msgs here and exchange of correspondence with Wheaton > on this. I now recall the situation. Here is the basic question: there was a rule of the Theosophical Society as a whole, which the American Section had been in violation of for years. There were two choices in order to obey the rule. The first was to stop the violation immediately, and put in the correct rule, causing a year or two of unfairness. The second was to correct the violation with fairness, which would have caused a year or two of remaining in violation of the rule. I was in favor of the latter, and let my feelings be known. I am not informed of what went on between Wheaton and Adyar, and what the motivations were at Wheaton, but the former course was chosen. Was the decision made to keep Sy off the Board of Directors? I hope not. Did Adyar threaten to excommunicate the American Section if they did not comply? If push came to shove, it would have been the height of stupidity to do so, but the threat might have been implicit. The key, however, is not how to destroy what is wrong, but how to create what is right. Does anybody here have any ideas on THAT? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:04:03 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980221110403.00927ac0@mail.eden.com> At 11:51 AM 2/21/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> The issue on the voting rights was that those who had voting rights at the >> time of the amendment of the bylaws lost it when the bylaws were passed. >> There were a lot of msgs here and exchange of correspondence with Wheaton >> on this. > > I now recall the situation. Here is the basic question: there was a rule of >the Theosophical Society as a whole, which the American Section had been in >violation of for years. There were two choices in order to obey the rule. The >first was to stop the violation immediately, and put in the correct rule, causing >a year or two of unfairness. The second was to correct the violation with >fairness, which would have caused a year or two of remaining in violation of the >rule. I was in favor of the latter, and let my feelings be known. I am not >informed of what went on between Wheaton and Adyar, and what the motivations were >at Wheaton, but the former course was chosen. Was the decision made to keep Sy off >the Board of Directors? I hope not. Did Adyar threaten to excommunicate the >American Section if they did not comply? If push came to shove, it would have been >the height of stupidity to do so, but the threat might have been implicit. > > The key, however, is not how to destroy what is wrong, but how to create what >is right. Does anybody here have any ideas on THAT? > > Bart Lidofsky Time has passed and I dont know if anything could be done now. The fundamental problem is when we run into past situations like this and others like the bylaws amendment, it tends to erode the credibility of the BOD (in the minds of non "catholics") no matter whether they are responsible or not or coerced into it by Adyar etc. The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and credibility. Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we can all put our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from anyone is welcome. Please provide feed back here! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:32:14 -0800 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1433 Message-ID: <006701bd3ef1$8cc800c0$03e78ccc@nwc.net> Feb 21 Dallas offers: Is it not correct that we are interested primarily in finding out what Theosophy has to say, teach or recommend ? If so let us devote time to study and the exchange of what we find of value in our individual work. Why concern ourselves with the problems that others have created -- I mean the "politics" in the T S or other "Theosophical" bodies ? Those were started so that students could get together and compare their efforts. What does it matter if there is an attempt at misrule or good rule ? It does matter of course that the name Theosophical Society may no longer strictly embody the 3 Objects. [ Is that why there are hints that they ought to be changed ? ] Let us, those who are truly interested in THEOSOPHY focus on assimilating its main tenets, and then making our own applications in "daily life." The rest will take care of itself. I have done a lot of patient listening, reading, researching, and you who contribute have no doubt done yours. But why not look to the future and say we hope that THEOSOPHY will be carried forward by our efforts. It is virtually impossible for the T S as it is at present to make vast changes, or to reverse its course unless the membership in its. If there are decreasing numbers, then may it not be due to a lack of sympathy in those "politics ?" May it not be due to a deep disappointment in the trend of this "exoteric" body ? I know nothing of the "esoteric" body in the T S or existing through the T S. And if the outward exoteric body squabbles, I can only imagine that the "inner" --- well I'll leave those who are there to determine how to characterize it. Suffice it to say, HPB's articles concerning the administration of the T S are clear. There is to be no "fighting, back-biting, gossip, disunity." Individual members have to do what they can to make such changes as may be necessary and they do not need "outside" distractions. They know, ass do all else what THEOSOPHY means and recommends. They have to do their own "house-cleaning," if such is needed. Let us get back to discussing Theosophy and its uses and values. This is of course entirely my own opinion in the matter. Dallas =========================== -----Original Message----- >Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 6:20 PM >Subject: THEOS-L digest 1433 >From: M K Ramadoss >Subject: Re: Secret Doctrine Symosium >Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980221194130.00b5f2c0@mail.eden.com> Here is an update I am posting on theos-l, ti-l and theos-news and theos-talk for info. mkr At 05:05 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Just a note to let you know that information on the Secret Doctrine >Symposium is in the process of being updated and posted on the website. > >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/astrycker/ > >Proposals for papers were due Jan. 31. A number of them were received and >are being reviewed. Some others are anticipated but not yet received, and >some space on the program remains open for individuals still interested in >participating as presenters. > >Some information is provided for those interested in making reservations. >Also, some of the authors are listed, although exact titles, program >schedule, etc., has yet to be finalized. Some of the authors expected at >this time are: Ken Small, Richard Brooks, David Reigle, Anthony Lysy, Anne >Redlich, Russell Nelson, Richard Robb, W. Doss McDavid, and Dr. Gorbunov >Yuri from the Ukraine. Other papers from around the world have been >mentioned but are not yet confirmed. It is possible that some papers may >be submitted by authors not able to attend, and readers may be designated >if appropriate. > >Arden Strycker, Secretary >Midwest Federation From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:58:13 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Miami Message-ID: Doss: >The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and credibility. >Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we can all put >our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from anyone is >welcome. Please provide feed back here! > >mkr Sometimes the "rock is bigger than both of us", Doss. When I piped in with the idea of increasing communication, I received expressions of irritation from various people. After reviewing various posts, I came to the conclusion that one side would settle for no less than the fall of the people in power, and that the other side either would not negotiate with hostility or could not be bothered. The only two affirmation I received was Doss' contribution to the idea and Bart's willingness to suggest contacts. The result of their affirmation was ridicule to them. Thus is the dynamics of the total body. Two bases of eastern teaching are to be in the present moment and to develop compassion. Meditation was designed to promote that present moment, and hence increase compassion. For all of the theosophical inclusion of eastern teaching, some recent communication contained lots of past hurt and suspicion, far more than the post that s/he was responding to warranted. The anger was so great that compassion for the "adversary" was not followed. But, hey, let's not worry about this. Let's sit and meditate that the war with Iraq will not happen. Let's use that mysterious mind power to influence the prevention of WWIII. It's a whole lot easier to do that. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 14:05:56 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Miami Message-ID: <34EF2594.436813B0@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > BOD (in the minds of non "catholics") no matter whether they are Your metaphor gave me a smile. > The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and credibility. > Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we can all put > our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from anyone is > welcome. Please provide feed back here! Thank you for seeing my point. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:43:45 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: Miami Message-ID: <199802211945.MAA12510@selway.umt.edu> >Sometimes the "rock is bigger than both of us", Doss. When I piped in with >the idea of increasing communication, I received expressions of irritation >from various people. After reviewing various posts, I came to the >conclusion that one side would settle for no less than the fall of the >people in power, and that the other side either would not negotiate with >hostility or could not be bothered. The only two affirmation I received >was Doss' contribution to the idea and Bart's willingness to suggest >contacts. The result of their affirmation was ridicule to them. Thus is >the dynamics of the total body. Perhaps, Thoa ... had you tried unsuccessfully for quite some to "increase communication" and wound up with head bloodied from beating it against a brick wall ... you might understand why not everyone was instantly in love with the idea of trying again. It you think Doss and Bart were ridiculed ... then talk to Bing Escudero, talk to Paul Johnson ... talk to some members of the Boston Lodge -talk to people that have had outright institutional *campaigns* orchestrated against them by people using the full resources of the Theosophical Society to forward their own agendas. I welcome your attempt to try to open communication ... and you have the same optimistic attitude many of those you see expressing apparent negativity also had at one time. I wish you luck. But I'm not going to sit and meditate when I see the TS being destroyed. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 15:32:23 EST From: ZZZLEEPER@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1433 Message-ID: <2673e846.34ef39d9@aol.com> In a message dated 2/21/98 2:13:52 AM, you wrote: <> I've removed or, at least, mitigated the confusion for myself by equating theos with divine instead of god. This fallen-away Catholic acolyte can live more comfortably with divine wisdom which relates more to the metaphysical or esoteric for me. Somehow when god or God is in the picture, formal religion, with all its dogmatic regalia, seems suffocatingly close at hand and more than willing to shove tenets down my throat. Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:47:41 EST From: ZZZLEEPER@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1434 Message-ID: <775a718c.34ef4b80@aol.com> In a message dated 2/21/98 6:17:20 AM, you wrote: << In any case, there were a group of friends in New York, centering around a brilliant young man named Neal Cassady. It included William Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg, as well. They met in the 1940's, but moved to San Francisco in the 1950's. It was around 1950 that the term "The Beat Generation" was used among the followers of this group, and it was in 1952 that the term entered the public. Bart Lidofsky>> And just to add to the timely discussion, are you familiar with the works of Alan Watts? He did some trashing of Kerouac in an essay titled, "Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen." Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 15:16:57 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980221151657.0092fe30@mail.eden.com> At 02:15 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> BOD (in the minds of non "catholics") no matter whether they are > > Your metaphor gave me a smile. Glad that it did make you smile. Have you read Annie Besant's lecture on the Catholic and Protestant Theosophists? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 15:13:37 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980221151337.00934770@mail.eden.com> At 10:58 AM 2/21/1998 -0800, you wrote: >Doss: > >>The fundamental question is how do we restore the trust and credibility. >>Usually restoration is a long drawn out process and I hope we can all put >>our heads together and see what can be done. Any ideas from anyone is >>welcome. Please provide feed back here! >> >>mkr > >Sometimes the "rock is bigger than both of us", Doss. When I piped in with >the idea of increasing communication, I received expressions of irritation >from various people. After reviewing various posts, I came to the >conclusion that one side would settle for no less than the fall of the >people in power, and that the other side either would not negotiate with >hostility or could not be bothered. The only two affirmation I received >was Doss' contribution to the idea and Bart's willingness to suggest >contacts. The result of their affirmation was ridicule to them. Thus is >the dynamics of the total body. There are always a wide spectrum of reaction. The issues we are trying to address/solve are matters of policy and principles. So long as we address them at that level, there is always a possibility for change. The change may not be what anyone expects or likes and may or may not take time. At the same time, I am personally convinced that no one should under estimate (or over estimate) what can be accomplished by a handful of individuals. If the time is ripe, just the interest of a few could bring about great results. It is this confidence that makes me an optimist and lose interest in the matter. I would like to share how I approach these matters of great importance -- more imporant than any of us and any of the present leadership. Recently when one of the top elected officials was visiting here on a lecture tour, I volunteered to host the official and we had a very good time even though we did not discuss any of the policy matters during the stay at my home. My home is always open to *anyone* no matter what our personal opinions or disagreements are. This has been our long held family tradition for three generations and we always enjoyed hosting visitors. > >Two bases of eastern teaching are to be in the present moment and to >develop compassion. Meditation was designed to promote that present >moment, and hence increase compassion. For all of the theosophical >inclusion of eastern teaching, some recent communication contained lots of >past hurt and suspicion, far more than the post that s/he was responding to >warranted. The anger was so great that compassion for the "adversary" was >not followed. > In many cases, based on past experience one becomes a little bit skeptical and looks closer at people and their actions. Such skepticism is very healthy and as actions speak louder than words, actions which pass muster can only build better credibility and trust. >But, hey, let's not worry about this. Let's sit and meditate that the war >with Iraq will not happen. Let's use that mysterious mind power to >influence the prevention of WWIII. It's a whole lot easier to do that. > >Thoa :o) The hawkish approach to Iraq is senseless. I felt very happy when I saw the heckling at OSU as well as the heckling that Richardson faced yesterday. How much killing and maiming are we willing to take responsibility for cheap oil? I hope there is no attack on Iraq. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 18:13:06 EST From: ZZZLEEPER@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1435 Message-ID: <1f22ddc8.34ef5f84@aol.com> In a message dated 2/21/98 6:20:31 PM, you wrote: <> Way to go, Dallas. Let's talk Theosophy! Julien From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:20:47 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: More from Miami Message-ID: <34EF6F5E.FB37DA3E@gate.net> Bart, I related our effort, the movie night, attended by a number of people, congregating in a voluntary manner, and giving contributions. They were not and no one is ever asked to pay a fee for any program presented by the TS Deerfield. Stop being so petty and see the world out here beyond the concrete canyons of your mind. Of course if "bringing a law suit" is what you are up to again, do it. I hear they pay a fee to any 'whistle blower' that comes forth. Bart, at now, be a participant who is a man when you use this list. Answer questions put to you in a straight forward way! Are you or are you not a member of the Esoteric Section? are you a member of the liberal Catholic Church? are you a member of the Co-Masonic Order? are you a member of La Draught Humanne? are you a member of the Egyptian Rite? All of these organizations are a shadow part of the TSA hierachical makeup. Please Bart, tell me how many of the BOD hold dual, triplicate and even quadruplicate membership in these organizations? Are the organizations above, given the same access at Wheaton as are Native Americans, African Americans and Spanish Americans? Read no access available to the latter. What is the official policy concerning these or nay other group using the grounds let alone the interiors of the buildings at Wheaton? Are the facilities at Wheaton open to all who are in sympathy with the three declared objects and wish to use Wheaton? What if a member of the Wheaton community wants to sponser such use? Make sure you get your story straight with John before you answer these questions. You have set yourself as a defacto representative of the Wheaton establishment and I accept that fact. Now, check out your answer first. I'll leave your explanation about 10% truth telling until I see the answers to the questions put before you. They are placed openly and with appreciation for the expected forthright answers. The voting issue of the past speaks for itself. Anyone with an eye to see and a mind to reason understands that the Wheatonists shabbily arrogated the most recent 'By-law' election and then the 'National Officer' election. Why are the Wheatonists always asking someone else to 'bite the bullet' when it comes to 'lawful' decisions. How can a member vote to disenfranchise himself? Perhaps you can unravel that conundrum. Quite shabby the documented tricks that have been a part of the administrations past practice. If you question what I am saying seek legal redress. For that matter Bart , who knows what else happened in elections past. Fire claiming the voting envelopes and members being thrown out for supporting non establishment candidates are two documented problems of the previous administration. For another, retribution for arguing the path of theosophy and daring to buck the system is seen in the treatment of Bing and Rosie. They were thrown out of Wheaton for daring to go against the grain. SHAMEFUL that chapter ! Finally, to one and all, this effort of Theosophy is not all warm and fuzzy. It grows like the human beings who have joined, by the fire of friction. Friction of ones thinking, acting or feeling. All create heat, all lead to expansion. Paraphrasing the talk with Arjuna, if you see something that is not democratic, in an organization that you joined because of its promise of democracy you must stand up and fight for the return of democracy ! If the organization that you have joined has promised a lawful non-dogmatic approach to life, it is fair to expect it. When you see and are presented with the new fact, 'real theosophy', is what you are told by the TSA hierarchy, you must fight that pillaging of your beliefs. You must work in earnest to actualize the non-dogmatic approach to life within your pervue of possibility. If you know the beloved three declared objects are being bastardized then trashed so that they are made to masquerade as the 'three aims" then fight you must. If we do not stand by/for the three declared objects as the bulwark of the society and perhaps, without not too fine a point, the human condition, then into the slough of despond will we find ourselves. Krishna instructed the Pandu Prince to fight, not because Arjuna wanted to, because it was the appropriate thing, the honorable thing, the neccessary thing to do. The Sun then set in the South. This is not a political effort in fact at now. It is a small attempt to work within the practicality of free speech to assure the democratic process will out. Unfortunately, there is little that is democratic in the way the TSA is administered. It is mired in a 'Royal' state of mind. That NO GOOD is being fostered by the society in its aim to serve humanity forces a sane person to stand up and say ENOUGH !, ENOUGH !, ENOUGH ! If you Wheatonists truly serve the human condition, grow the society. Open the TSA and its inner procesess to all. Actively seek membership that will be supportive of a non-dogmatic approach to life using the the three declared objects as a valid road map. Stop being seperative and aloof. See the wisdom in the Mahatma's letter of 1900 and stop piling up your fortune, in time, creativity, and responsibility as form stuff. I make this promise now to all who read it: If the adminstration in Wheaton will agree to have an outside auditor receive and count the votes for all elections hence, I will only express my opinion as I see any issue at hand. No complaints or negative statements directed at our democratic administration will pass my pen. Kenneth H. Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:41:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Secret Doctrine Symosium Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980221194130.00b5f2c0@mail.eden.com> Here is an update I am posting on theos-l, ti-l and theos-news and theos-talk for info. mkr At 05:05 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Just a note to let you know that information on the Secret Doctrine >Symposium is in the process of being updated and posted on the website. > >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/astrycker/ > >Proposals for papers were due Jan. 31. A number of them were received and >are being reviewed. Some others are anticipated but not yet received, and >some space on the program remains open for individuals still interested in >participating as presenters. > >Some information is provided for those interested in making reservations. >Also, some of the authors are listed, although exact titles, program >schedule, etc., has yet to be finalized. Some of the authors expected at >this time are: Ken Small, Richard Brooks, David Reigle, Anthony Lysy, Anne >Redlich, Russell Nelson, Richard Robb, W. Doss McDavid, and Dr. Gorbunov >Yuri from the Ukraine. Other papers from around the world have been >mentioned but are not yet confirmed. It is possible that some papers may >be submitted by authors not able to attend, and readers may be designated >if appropriate. > >Arden Strycker, Secretary >Midwest Federation > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:01:38 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More from Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980221200138.00b50150@mail.eden.com> At 07:29 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, you wrote: >>>>>>>>>>clip<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >liberal Catholic Church? are you a member of the Co-Masonic Order? are >you a member of La Draught Humanne? are you a member of the Egyptian >Rite? All of these organizations are a shadow part of the TSA >hierachical makeup. Please Bart, tell me how many of the BOD hold dual, >triplicate and even quadruplicate membership in these organizations? >>>>>>>>>clip<<<<<<<<<<<<< > >Kenneth H. Malkin Does anyone have info on the Egyptian Rite? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 04:17:56 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: More from Miami plus Message-ID: <6lW$QVA0b670Ew1X@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <34EF6F5E.FB37DA3E@gate.net>, Ken Malkin writes (in response to Bart) >Answer questions put to you in a straight forward way! Are you or are >you not a member of the Esoteric Section? are you a member of the >liberal Catholic Church? are you a member of the Co-Masonic Order? are >you a member of La Draught Humanne? are you a member of the Egyptian >Rite? All of these organizations are a shadow part of the TSA >hierachical makeup. At a time when the UK Government are *instructing* the United Grand Lodge of England to state whether around some 160 police officers are Freemasons, and planning to require a declaration with regard to such membership for future members of the judiciary, it might be a useful question to ask of everyone on this and the other lists if they will volunteer the information you mention, as without doubt these things are relevant to theosophy via its history, and thus can influence its present and its future, so, although the question was not addressed to me, I for one would like to answer it (again in some insatnces). 1. I am not and never have been a member of the TS Esoteric Section. 2. I was ordained a bishop in an offshoot of the Liberal Catholic Church (via Canada) and can trace a direct line of apostolic succession to dear ol' Chas. Leadbeater himself. I have since lapsed into heresy and apostasy, and have little or no time for the LCC and its related ecclesiastical affiliations. I cannot however, owing to the nature of the process, be "unbishoped". 3. I am an inactive Master Mason of the Co-Masonic Order (NB, it's "Le Droite Humaine") and has HQ in Paris. In my time with it it had long ceased (in my area) to have any real connection with the TS, and hardly any of the local members were theosophists, paid up or not. I have no criticism of this organisation as such, though it may be argued that some of its members in the higher degrees *may* have at different times exerted an strong influence on TS policies, but I have never seen any evidence for any kind of "conspiracy" theory in this connection, and would not suppose that such influence had any connection with their masonic affiliations. I have met (in the Co-M lodge) more than a few high officers who were also members or even officials in the National TS Society. This connection was *never* made use of or mentioned in lodge meetings, and some of those who knew me (or mostly "of" me) were surprised to find me there. This has never, to the best of my knowledge, affected me adversely in any way. 4. I have no idea what "The Egyptian Rite" is. Phew! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 03:31:01 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >Alan: >>Maybe your nose *does* belong ? > >the trouble with belonging ... >is that half the time ... > >it's only stinky tuna fish. > .. and the other half? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 03:51:04 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1433 Message-ID: In message <2673e846.34ef39d9@aol.com>, ZZZLEEPER@aol.com writes ><were saying something different from HPB .... > >Confusing, ain't it folks .... > >Alan >>> > >I've removed or, at least, mitigated the confusion for myself by equating >theos with divine instead of god. Many people do this, and it is a convenient approach. The fact remains that theos is the Greek for "god" (Big or small 'g'). > This fallen-away Catholic acolyte can live >more comfortably with divine wisdom which relates more to the metaphysical or >esoteric for me. This fallen away independent catholic bishop agrees with you! > Somehow when god or God is in the picture, formal religion, >with all its dogmatic regalia, seems suffocatingly close at hand and more than >willing to shove tenets down my throat. Which, sadly, has been the legacy of the Leadbeater/Besant era upon the Adyar-based TS. I was reflecting only yesterday that HPB produced two major works - Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine. In neither is theosophy presented as a kind of dogmatic theology to be taught. Only that there is/are an ancient wisdom(s) to be discovered and studied. Just today's .02 Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 03:34:56 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >Dark, dark, dark >blackness >beat the street ... Not in St. Martin's Lane, in the Charing Cross area of London. In broad daylight I walked barefoot with a kitten called Solomon riding on my shoulder. I was also a street busker with a piano accordian - oh how are the mighty fallen ... from the heights of speed to a D.D. Alan :0) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 03:42:36 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Miami Message-ID: In message <34EF017B.15E823A9@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > The key, however, is not how to destroy what is wrong, but how to create >what >is right. Does anybody here have any ideas on THAT? As you might suspect - Start over. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:41:56 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Correcion Message-ID: <34F01D13.99CD97C7@gate.net> Alan, Your correction of the name "Le Droite Humaine" is most appreciated. Thank you ! Ken From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:22:44 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: Solar Eclipse and Evolution of Mankind Message-ID: <0551f4429141628UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Thursday the 26 will be a solar elispse. I am not sure of the time. The Iragi invasion and bombings were timed at the new moon last time. Also in some locations up to five planets may be visible. I think events that start at this time will be of not. Some may end with a bang. I wonder what occult significance this may have. With the solar energy blocked, the lunar and planetary energy may stream forth. I am thinking of the film 2001: A Space Oddysey which was very popular when I was young, but isn't talked about much anymore. Do you remember the "starchild" image at the end of the film. It was one of the most powerful images in all of film for me. It spoke in a few seconds about ideas about human evolution. Of couse, it was not specific, but the film suggested that our evolution is being guided from higher "worlds". The stargate was as much a Jacob's ladder as a physical wormhole through space. The astronaut traveled interdimesionally. He saw history spread out before him from primate, to renassaince, to the next stage of the Uber-Mensh, the 5th race some could say. Was this starchild a physcial being to be born and populate the earth like a new Manu. Was he a Messiah? From the look in his eye, he was a Gnostic, that little feller knew something! Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:55:17 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: New Acropolis & Hastinapura Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222165517.00a17760@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting msg on theos-talk. Does anyone have any further info on these organizations. mkr ================================================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:38:06 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Theos-World The T.S. and New Acropopis Following is the text from two letters regarding the New Acropolis and the T.S. which I have a photocopy of. In reading the letter, the following picture is painted: The letters describe a dynamic couple that attracted many young people to Theosophy as national members of their T.S. Section. They accepted HPB but not later theosophical writers. Because they presented themselves as "instructors" or having special knowledge, and opposed the authority of their National Section, they were expelled and founded two large and thriving sister organizations, no longer associated with the T.S. It would probably take both members of New Acropolis and of the T.S. at the time to tell us the full story of what happened then. Meanwhile, we're left wondering ... Are the New Acropolis and Hastinapura organizations to be considered as part of the Theosophical Movement, in the same sense as we include the T.S. Adyar, T.S. Pasadena, ULT, and Temple of the People? If so, we should learn more about them. If not, then why? Because they are alleged to have far-right political connections? Do we know that these connections are true, and not false charges? And ... are all connections to politics bad? If so, then we should also reject groups connected to far-left politics too. (The general rule as I've learned it is that politics and theosophical groups don't mix, although every individual may follow his/her own political persuasion.) What does everyone else think? -- Eldon ---- [Undated typewritten letter] To all General Secretaries of the Theosophical Society in Europe: In connection with the activities of the 'New Acropolis', the Executive Committee of the European Federation recommends that General Secretaries publish in their theosophical magazines and newsletters to members the following communique: > A WARNING > > The Council of the European Federation of Theosophical Societies > requests us to draw the attention of all TS members to the > following: > > In spite of certain appearances and allegations, in spite of > official objects ostensibly similar to those of the Theosophical > Society and in spite of references to H. P. Blavatsky and the > late President Sri Ram, the organization known under the name > 'New Acropolis' and founded by a former member of the > Theosophical Society in the Argentine is fundamentally distinct > from our movement. > > Careful study of its activities and of the spirit they express > obliges us to dissociate ourselves formally from that > organization and to refrain from cooperating in any way with it, > in order to avoid very awkward confusion arising in people's > minds. ---- [Attached letter, typewritten with handwritten corrections, bearing the printed letterhead:] > THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY > ADYAR, MADRAS 20 > INDIA > > SOCIEDAD THEOSOFICA > IN ARGENTINA > SANTIAGO 320 - 2000 ROSARIO > > SECTRETARIO GENERAL ---- To the Vice-Chairman of the European Council Dr. H. Van Der Hecht 166 Rue de la Cambre B-1200 Brussels BELGIUM Dear Dr. Van Der Hecht: By means of the present letter we are answering your kind of 2-2-82 which reached us just in time we have our vacation time in the activities; afterwards we received the visit of our International President Mrs. Radha Burnier. We hope you'll excuse us of such delay in answering your kind letter. We send now the required information: Mr. Livraga joined to the Theosophical Society in Argentine many years ago, when he was a young student of Theosophy. He got married with a young student, Ada Albrecht who later founded the New Acropolis together with him. Since the beginning he showed indubitable qualities of leader, attracting many boys and girls. It was obvious that he supported a very particular point of view of Theosophy very different from that held in general in those days. His methods for teaching Theosophy were not the usual in Branches of the Theosophical Society. The match Livraga-Albrecht kept their activities for some years, and we all say clearly how flew up and increased that phenomenon as a movement inside the major movement of the Theosophical Society. Then they began to bring over an increasing number of boys and girls to the Theosophical Society as "unattached members", it is to say, not belonging to any Branch. The Sectional authorities alarmed by that increasing and stronger day by day performance saw it like a tentative of grabbing the Theosophical Society in Argentine, this circumstance obliged the authorities of the Section to make a change in our Statutes in order that those new members had to belong to some Branch of Buenos Aires city, place of events and place where those influenced members lived. The controlled income of new members ceased and Livraga entered upon a conflictive period in his connection with the Sectional Authorities; this period was relatively short, it burst out in a trial against the Society it Argentine promoted by Mr. Livraga because of hypothetical violations of national laws. The trial was short, once presented the defense by the Section it was correctly declared innocent of charges and exonerated. When the verdict of the Justice was known Mr. Livraga was expelled from the Theosophical Society in Argentina. He never was General Secretary of the Argentine Section nor ANY OTHER. Here we detail some strokes of his particular dispositions which were emphasized after his expelling of the Society: 1. Livraga's theosophical devotion was a strong attachment expressly to H.P.B. with exclusion of the leaders who followed her. 2. New Acropolis was established as an academy of theosophical and philosophical studies with definite subject matter and grades. 3. He and his wife acquired from the beginning a character, a temper of "instructors" assuming a strong "spiritual authority". 4. There are many evidences about the real nature of that institution which was internally connected with extremism of the ultra right and Nazism. 5. Those and many others evidences that we omit show that he was never suitable to the structure of the Theosophical Society which never could support such disposition. Mr. Livraga left this country six or seven years ago to get established in Spain, he is suspected of leaving the country for political or pseudo-political reasons and in a hurry. On the other hand, the match Livraga-Albrecht broke up, separated and Mrs. Livraga established a movement of similar characteristics to New Acropolis called Hastinapura, apparently without extremism or political connotations. New Acropolis grew over iberoamerican countries, it offers an interesting attraction for youth because of its teaching plans and dynamic structures. There are nearly no adults in those two movements. We repeat that Livraga-Albrecht are both leaders and posses a very strong magnetic attraction. They have tried to infiltrate in the Theosophical Society in several places maybe in order to make use of its structure for their purposes, maybe to destroy the Theosophical Society, nevertheless this is a supposition. Some material from our register books: > EXPULSION FROM THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OF > Mr. Jorge Angel Livraga > ACCORDING TO THE LIST OF MEMBERSHIP OF THE ARGENTINE SECTION > Book No. 6 - No. 3451 > > NAME: Jorge Angel Livraga > NATIONALITY: Argentine > DATE OF BIRTH: 3/9/30 > DATE HE ENTERED THE T.S.: 30/5/50 > > He entered Dharma Branch, then he went to the Peace and Harmony > Branch, afterwards he changed to the Lautaro Branch. At last he > became a "unattached member". > > TERMINATION OF MEMBERSHIP > > A National Congress expelled him from the T.S. > > REASON OF THE CANCELLATION > > Because he laid a deceitful information against the Theosophical > Society before the General Attorney for the Province of Santa Fe. > > REMARKS > > The National Council of the T.S. in Argentina decided to stop > the entrance of "unattached members" on 6/8/61 until the Rules > were amended. (See pages 214, 215, 217, 219, and 222 in the > Records of the National Council for the year 1961.) > > As An unattached member Mr. J. A. Livraga organized and > established a group with the name of the Argentine Theosophical > Youth Group, that had nothing to do with the T.S. in Argentina > (without any link in the whole with the real "Argentine > Theosophical Youth" which was legally led by Mr. Luis Spairani). > That "private organization" of Mr. Livraga had its meetings on > Amenabar 863 (Buenos Aries). > > Since 1959 until 1962 Mr. Livraga, held constantly attacks > against the Argentine T.S. and its established authorities. The > last sentence from the State Attorney was completely favorable to > the T.S.; because the information he laid against the T.S. was > lacking of reason Mr. Livraga had to pay all the costs of the > lawsuit. > > World President Mr. Sri Ram was informed about the case and he > answered to the General Secretary Brother Nazareno Rimini. > > To the new Rules of the T.S. which were approved according to > Decree No. 01355 of 26/11/64 by the Higher Government of Santa > Fe, it is established that the T.S. in Argentina is not allowed > to hold "unattached members", except in particular cases. > > Of all the components of Mr. Livraga's group, seven left him and > came in the Fraternity Branch of the T.S. We are always at your entire disposal. We hope this information will be useful for you. In opportunity of the visit of our International President we have give her a copy of this letter. Kindly receive our warm greetings. (signed) Pauline de Palmeri, Secretary (signed) Juan Carlos Palmeri, Secretary General From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:01:16 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Argentine TS/Members at Large Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222170116.00a17520@mail.eden.com> >From what we have seen that has happened in Argentina, encourgement of members joining TS as members at large, could cause similar danger in other countries. I believe quite a substantial number of members of TS in America are at present members at large. I do not know to what extent anything is being done to encourage them to join a study center or branch/lodge in the proximity of their residence. With all the fat bank balance that TSA has and the real estate etc., TSA could face some danger. Only future can tell. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:34:38 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Fee for TS Programs -- Miami Example Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222193438.00a88ac0@mail.eden.com> At 07:29 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, Ken wrote: >Bart, > >I related our effort, the movie night, attended by a number of people, >congregating in a voluntary manner, and giving contributions. They were >not and no one is ever asked to pay a fee for any program presented by >the TS Deerfield. In this day and age, when everyone wants to charge a fee or suggested donation etc., it is very refreshing to see Deerfield policy and may be others may consider following it. One well known and well respected member once said TS from day one given everything for free and that is how the organization was built. When the right kind of work is done, finances will never be a problem. I am yet to see any Theosophical activities in branches/lodges and study centers where the activity was hampered for lack of funds. Of course my views may be some what different in that I have attended lectures of several International Presidents of TS and other well known speakers without paying a penny as a fee or a suggested donation. I used to wonder when our own lodge sets up a program by a IMHO very mediocre speaker and wants every member to pay a fee. My 0.02. mkr PS: I am sure there are other branches and study centers which provides programs to the members and public without a fee. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:40:34 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More from Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222204034.00a71260@mail.eden.com> At 07:29 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, Ken wrote: >All of these organizations are a shadow part of the TSA >hierachical makeup. MKR: I do not know first hand about the "spiritual" power coming out of these organizations. On the physical level, the cross membership can be used to ensure members to keep in line. Progression can be prevented when time comes for reward of a higher position or title etc. I do not know how often this is happening. But the potential real or subtle pressure to conform is always there. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:44:45 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Bing & Wood Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222204445.00a71dfc@mail.eden.com> At 07:29 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, Ken wrote: > >For another, retribution for arguing the >path of theosophy and daring to buck the system is seen in the treatment >of Bing and Rosie. They were thrown out of Wheaton for daring to go >against the grain. SHAMEFUL that chapter ! This is should not surprise any newbees. It is a minor re-run of Ernest Wood case. This is the Wood famous for his books on 7 Rays, Concentration, etc. When he ran for International President against George Arundale, who was claimed to be the "Master's" choice and lost, he was marginalized. He spent his last days in Houston and was ostracized by the "sheep" and were supported by a few open minded and kind hearted novices and did not know or care about the intricacies of politics. Here was a man who worked for Theosophy in his early prime of life. As a young man of early 20s went from England to Adyar at his *own* cost and worked for two decades supporting himself with *his* *own* *money.* Later, after Arundale's election as President he moved to the US and lived in the US until his death in 1950s. During the time he lived in the USA, TSA shunned him and did not use his talents as a lecturer. They had other mediocre "approved" lecturers. However, even today TPH around the world is profiting by publishing and selling his books and I don't think they are paying any royalties to anyone. Also anyone interested in the TS election politics and how the cross membership in other "supposedly unrelated" "spiritual" organizations are used, should read his very very rare book "Is This Theosophy?" which you will very rarely find in any libraries of branches and study centers, much less available for loan from anywhere. There is a lot of baggage (much not pretty) to take care of. It is like the "Prabadha Karma" which each one of us have in our account. my 0.02 mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:33:20 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More from Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222203320.00a71dfc@mail.eden.com> At 07:29 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, Ken wrote: >Native Americans, African Americans and Spanish Americans? Read no >access available to the latter. What is the official policy concerning >these or nay other group using the grounds let alone the interiors of >the buildings at Wheaton? Are the facilities at Wheaton open to all who >are in sympathy with the three declared objects and wish to use Wheaton? >What if a member of the Wheaton community wants to sponser such use? If there is an audit by IRS, they would be very interested on this issue. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:35:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More from Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222203552.00a71dfc@mail.eden.com> At 07:29 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, Ken wrote: > > How can a member vote to disenfranchise himself? When end justifies the means, any thing can be explained away. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:39:13 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More from Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222203913.00a7210c@mail.eden.com> At 07:29 PM 2/21/1998 -0500, Ken wrote: > See the wisdom in the Mahatma's letter of 1900 May be it is time to re-post the letter? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:12:41 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Excommunication of TS in Canada Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222211241.00dffd4c@mail.eden.com> At 09:44 PM 2/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >On the subject of T.S. in Canada being excommunicated in 1991, there has been much speculation, but the real story has yet to be told. > >Joy Mills was present at the Meeting of the General Council which voted to excommunicate T.S. in Canada. Perhaps she could supply more information. The question of changes to the By-Laws of T.S. in Canada was a minor technicality which was used against Canadian Section, and which could have been discussed but no attempt was ever made to do so. There is more to this excommunication than has been stated to date, (which the international organization noted as a ‘dissociation’ on the part of T.S. in Canada). Adyar likely had other reasons for wanting to expel Canadian Section. Following HPB’s death there have been two factions in the theosophical movement, those who followed Besant and those who followed WQ Judge. The answer perhaps lies in the promotion of one over the other. Since the 1920's there have been two theosophical organizations in Canada: Canadian Federation and T.S. in Canada. It was mentioned that Canada was split into a french section and an english section; t! >! >his is not necessarily true. Both Canadian Section and Canadian Federation have had lodges in Quebec -- language was not the issue. > >Jerry Hejia-Ekins’ observations and synopsis are correct, and Ramadoss puts forth some very good questions. What was the real reason Adyar threw Canadian Section out? What was it about TS in Canada that led Adyar to sever all connections? It was no secret that Canadian Section was the ‘grit in the oyster’ that caused irritation. Adyar has a history of spewing out organizations that don’t conform. This attitude has been prevalent since the days of Olcott when he wanted to rule with an iron fist (via official notices, etc.) and the ongoing differences between himself and Judge. There appears to have always been a greater concern with the survival of the organization than the Teachings as presented by HPB. > >Ernest MKR writes: Thanks for the information. It would be nice if we can find out the "real" reason for disassociation. On the other hand, one may want find out more info about Denmark, Yugoslavia and other countries where there have been problems, some leading to cancellation of charter others not. An analysis of the fact may give us an idea of the "real" underlying issue(s) that may be common to all these countries and none of the TS leaders are willing to speak up. You are right about the technicality issue. Sometime ago someone mentioned that in France they do not fully comply with all the rules. But no one dares to take action because the French have a leverage via Le Droit Humain connection and can respond in kind. Historians will find all of this interesting. My 0.02 mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:38:30 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: More from Miami Message-ID: <34F0FD46.8BE1BF6D@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > Bart, > > I related our effort, the movie night, attended by a number of people, > congregating in a voluntary manner, and giving contributions. They were > not and no one is ever asked to pay a fee for any program presented by > the TS Deerfield. Stop being so petty and see the world out here beyond > the concrete canyons of your mind. Of course if "bringing a law suit" is > what you are up to again, do it. I hear they pay a fee to any 'whistle > blower' that comes forth. A) You said "fee", I didn't. B) In terms of the movies: When putting forth a similar program in New York (also with no fee), I checked with lawyers first. Based on their advice, we made the program a members' program instead of a public program. Merely announcing such a program in our catalogue, with or without a fee, would have left us open to criminal charges (not just a lawsuit). I think that the program is a great idea, and was merely trying to help. And therein lies the problem of much of what I see here. One thing that I have learned, after becoming a member of the Theosophical Society, is a method of looking at other people. If another person seems to be working against you, it is easy to assume that they are mindlessly evil and against you. If you deal with them in that manner, you will only succeed in making things worse. What you need to do is see that they ARE you, and see why they are REALLY acting in that matter, realizing that only the insane act without reason. Once you see what their goal is, it becomes much easier to work with them (it even works with IRS agents!). You had made me sufficiently angry with your missive against me that I did not do so with you. I will try to do so, assuming: 1) That you see the Theosophical Society as becoming increasingly dogmatic, and against what it was supposed to be in the first place. 2) You have been working to restore it to what you believe it is supposed to be, and have been frustrated in that effort. 3) You see the representatives at Wheaton and Adyar as a major (possibly the major) source of that frustration. 4) You see me as either part of or as a pawn of that power structure, and therefore another source of your frustration. > Answer questions put to you in a straight forward way! Are you or are > you not a member of the Esoteric Section? are you a member of the > liberal Catholic Church? are you a member of the Co-Masonic Order? are > you a member of La Draught Humanne? are you a member of the Egyptian > Rite? None of the above. Here is more detail; if you want still more, just ask. 1) I find that the Esoteric Section is not what Blavatsky described it as. I would have wished to join hers, but not the current one. I am also not yet ready to become a vegetarian. 2) As one of the killers of Jesus, I do not feel comfortable in the Christian metaphor (I am not poking fun, here; I was the victim of violent anti-Semitism in my youth because of that accusation). 3) I actually had and have an interest in Masonry. I also have a strong negative reaction to ritual, and therefore would consider it hypocritical to join a Masonic Group. If I did, it would be a so-called co-Masonic group, since I find that the prohibition of women in G.L.E. Masonry to be a holdover from a time when women were considered little more than property. > Please Bart, tell me how many of the BOD hold dual, > triplicate and even quadruplicate membership in these organizations? I do not know, nor have I ever tried to find out. I know specifically of one member of the BOD who is a co-Mason (John Algeo), since he has publicly stated it. > Are the organizations above, given the same access at Wheaton as are Native Americans, >African Americans and Spanish Americans? Read no access available to the latter. The former are organizations, the latter are not. This is not an attempt to avoid the question, but truly an attempt to try to clarify the question. Now, the groups you mention are the current poster cases of oppression in United States. This is not to say that they are not oppressed, simply point out that they are not the only ones being oppressed, merely the ones on which the press is currently focused. Therefore, I am going to guess (and you will tell me if I am wrong) that you believe that the best way to form a nucleus of brotherhood is to give resources to oppressed groups (I will give you the benefit of doubt, and not assume that you only mean popular oppressed groups). However, other members of the Theosophical Society don't necessarily agree with you as to the best means to allocate resources. The method currently used to solve these disagreements is that the membership elect representatives, and those representatives make the decisions as to allocation of resources. Once again, I will assume that you do not disagree with the process, but, based on your other posts, you believe that the process is being perverted. And I can truthfully tell you that I really don't pay attention to the elective process. I do agree, however, that if the elections are not independently audited, that, considering the value of the property being controlled, they should be. I am not trying to avoid the question; if I have not answered it to your satisfaction, feel free to rephrase it. > Make sure you get your story straight with John before you answer these > questions. You have set yourself as a defacto representative of the > Wheaton establishment and I accept that fact. No, you have. Please quote any message I have written where I claim to be a representative of the Wheaton establishment, except as giving technical advice for the use of Internet? > Now, check out your answer > first. I'll leave your explanation about 10% truth telling until I see > the answers to the questions put before you. They are placed openly and > with appreciation for the expected forthright answers. I have re-edited this message several times, to comply with your request. > vote to disenfranchise himself? Perhaps you can unravel that conundrum. > Quite shabby the documented tricks that have been a part of the > administrations past practice. If you question what I am saying seek > legal redress. Read the whole paragraph before responding, please. Essentially, people who did not have the right to vote according to the International Charter of the Theosophical Society were being allowed to vote. You can't disenfranchise someone who is not franchised to begin with. It is, however, UNFAIR if people who are mistakenly given franchise have it simply removed, and I had recommended, for what it was worth, that the American Section take the extra year to allow people who had voted in previous elections to continue to vote, in the interest of fairness. You have to realize that New York is kind of strange. We have people like John and, until recently, Emily Sellon, Ed Abdill, and Dora Kunz all taking an active interest in the Lodge. Our major contact with National is in cooperation with major projects. I don't recall any time since I have been a member that National has tried to exert any influence on a decision by the New York Lodge. > For that matter Bart , who knows what else happened in elections past. > Fire claiming the voting envelopes and members being thrown out for > supporting non establishment candidates are two documented problems of > the previous administration. I am not aware of either case, and will take your word for it on the fire (what happened after that?). Which members were thrown out for supporting non-establishment candidates? > For another, retribution for arguing the > path of theosophy and daring to buck the system is seen in the treatment > of Bing and Rosie. They were thrown out of Wheaton for daring to go > against the grain. SHAMEFUL that chapter ! I don't know who Rosie is. I have been told that Bing was released from the salaried position of National Speaker when it was decided to have several, non-salaried National Speakers, that he was offered other positions at Wheaton (and also to remain _a_ national speaker) and that the only other position that he would accept at Wheaton was head of the Theosophical Publishing House, for which he was considered unqualified due to a complete lack of business experience. Can you inform me of any other position at Wheaton for which he was qualified which he was willing to accept, or his qualifications to be the head of the TPH? By the way, all my questions are real, not rhetorical. > Finally, to one and all, this effort of Theosophy is not all warm and > fuzzy. It grows like the human beings who have joined, by the fire of > friction. Friction of ones thinking, acting or feeling. All create heat, > all lead to expansion. Paraphrasing the talk with Arjuna, if you see > something that is not democratic, in an organization that you joined > because of its promise of democracy you must stand up and fight for the > return of democracy ! That sounds reasonable to me. It is better to try to convert others to your cause, however, than to make enemies. Even if I disagree with you, would you rather have me as a reasonable opponent, or as an angry enemy? Have you noticed how a number of people who would otherwise agree with you have been turned off by your invective? With most of the people here, I have at least been able to stay on a civil level, and I ALWAYS pay attention to what they have to say. > This is not a political effort in fact at now. It is a small attempt to > work within the practicality of free speech to assure the democratic > process will out. Unfortunately, there is little that is democratic in > the way the TSA is administered. It is mired in a 'Royal' state of mind. > That NO GOOD is being fostered by the society in its aim to serve > humanity forces a sane person to stand up and say ENOUGH !, ENOUGH !, > ENOUGH ! Once again, this is NOT rhetorical, but a genuine question. In the past, people who have had problems with the TS have formed their own Theosophical groups. Some of these, as members here can attest, do good work, being complementary rather than in opposition to the TS. Note the success that TI is having. You probably have considered forming a separate Theosophical Society. I can see several reasons for not wishing to do so. For example, if you have donated a substantial amount of money or property to the TS, that would be a reason for wanting to change the current organization rather than start your own. There are certainly other legitimate reasons. I am curious, what is yours? > If you Wheatonists truly serve the human condition, grow the society. I don't believe that I am a Wheatonist, but I believe in growing the Society. > Open the TSA and its inner procesess to all. Actively seek membership > that will be supportive of a non-dogmatic approach to life using the the > three declared objects as a valid road map. Stop being seperative and > aloof. See the wisdom in the Mahatma's letter of 1900 and stop piling up > your fortune, in time, creativity, and responsibility as form > stuff. Well, I don't know about Wheaton, but that is certainly what we are doing in New York, in my opinion. > If the adminstration in Wheaton will agree to have an outside > auditor receive and count the votes for all elections hence, I will only > express my opinion as I see any issue at hand. No complaints or negative > statements directed at our democratic administration will pass my pen. Actually, while I agree that having the elections independently audited is a good idea, there is certainly no problem in criticizing the administration. That is part of the democratic process. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:02:40 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1433 Message-ID: <34F102F0.A6B61D48@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > the Adyar-based TS. I was reflecting only yesterday that HPB > produced two major works - Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine. I kinda liked NIGHTMARE TALES.... Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:03:56 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Miami Message-ID: <34F1033B.369D69EE@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <34EF017B.15E823A9@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > > The key, however, is not how to destroy what is wrong, but how to create > >what > >is right. Does anybody here have any ideas on THAT? > > As you might suspect - Start over. And I would like to note how TI seems to have augmented rather than fractioned Theosophy as a whole. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:43:50 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More from Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980222234350.00ae415c@mail.eden.com> Bart: To save bandwidth I am not quoting your long response. I congratulate your candid response. I always admire and respect those who are very candid and who *do* *not* try to misuse english language abilities to respond in a tricky and misinterpretable manner. Peace mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:59:02 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 6 of 7 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980223205902.006ae4fc@mail.eden.com> Wad-bb1 (wad-f6)/WAD-BB Continued from 5 of 7 After the opening of the Bangalore Lodge, which was only about 190 miles away from Ooty, he generally cut short his stay in Ooty to come and work intensively with the Bangalore Lodge until the active season brought him back to Bombay around mid- August. Bombay is about 800 miles North West of Bangalore. Even then, there was no such thing as a general invitation to associates to come for a joint vacation, joint study, etc...as the TS seems to do in America (Krotona, Ojai. England. Switzerland, and other countries.) So I have had some doubts about the practice, as it is seems to me to be physically and psychically "pleasing" to the personality, but lacks a certain feeling of the intensive work and discipline directed to perfecting the personality connected with it. If you read WQJ's Practical Theosophy (Judge Articles, Vol. II, p. 395...) you will see that Mr. Judge recommends the promulgation of Karma and Reincarnation as being our primary tasks. That is active, not passive. If you study Mr. Judge's work, he was constantly encouraging his friends to work, to promulgate, to seek for those souls who might be interested in the message of Theosophy. All of Mr. Judge's time and all the money that came to him for Theosophical use was employed in this. The funds of the T S in America were spent right away in this work of promulgation, and they provided great results. In letters written to Col. Olcott, Judge states that the money received ought to be translated into active work for Theosophy immediately, and not "laid up" in a "fund" for some future use. [see WQJ - "On Funds and Property," The Path, Vol. 8, p. 354] ========================== ANSWER TO QUESTION: Was Mr. Wadia beginning a revolution in Adyar in the period around 1918/20 ? This you say has been rumored and where there is a fire there is smoke, etc... ? ANSWER by WK: In November 1958, Miss Ethel Beswick, who had been working with Mr. Wadia and Mr. T. L. Crombie in Adyar during the period around 1918-1920 wrote a short biographical sketch of the late Mr. T. L. Crombie's life. From this we read:-- "...as the years passed he (Crombie) became increasingly dissatisfied with the part played by the T.S. in the world, for he realized more and more that Theosophy pure and simple was not being taught and the great mission of the Theosophical Movement of our century was being lost sight of. The psychic pronouncement of Mr Leadbeater were ousting the works of Madame Blavatsky, and the great ideal of the Masters of Wisdom was being degraded. Living in Adyar itself he continued his friendship with B.P.Wadia and his respect grew. He recognized Shri Wadia's integrity of character and devotion to H.P.Blavatsky and Theosophy, and they discussed what could be done to bring the Society once again in line with the Original Impulse of the Movement.. Could a change be brought about within the Society? If not, then it would have to be done from outside. Plans began to be made so that if all efforts to bring the change from within the Society failed another effort could be made which would bring Theosophy pure and simple back into the world. These plans included the founding of an international magazine in which writers of the world would be free to express the their views, in which Theosophical principles could be expounded, and where writers who were struggling to pierce through the ordinary levels of thought into the universal could find expression. Further, H.P.Blavatsky had said that it was the duty of the Society to see that its members were kept in touch with the organization, and a magazine The Vahan had been started in her time and sent free, at first, to members. Something along this line would be needed for those Theosophical students who wished to study Theosophy, and though it would not be sent free to all, the cost would be kept down to the minimum. One other very important thing had to be done. One of the Founders of the Theosophical Society in 1875, Mr. William Quan Judge, the faithful pupil and co-worker with H.P.B., who had died in 1896, had to be brought from the disgrace into which he had been thrust to his true position in the Theosophic world. If, as H.P.B. had stated in her first book Isis Unveiled it is the duty of a Theosophist to remove the slur on "calumniated reputations," then it was surely a Theosophic duty to clear up the position as regards Mr. Judge. If this could not be done, after strenuous efforts, within the Society, then it would have to be done outside. To have a permanent home in India the present house [originally named "Brookhampton," renamed: "Guru Mandir" by Mr. Wadia] in Ootacamund was bought. Possibilities of a change in India looked poor in 1921 when Shri B.P.Wadia left India for Europe and America--his second visit. By July 1922 he had lost all hope of any such change and resigned his membership...Some months later Mr. Crombie left Adyar and resigned from the Society... >From 1922 to 1928 Shri B.P.Wadia was in the United States working with the United Lodge of Theosophists, a body of students of Theosophy devoted to studying the works of Madame Blavatsky and Mr. Judge, without officials, dues or regulations. In collaboration with the parent Lodge at Los Angeles, founded by Mr. Robert Crosbie in 1909, he founded Lodges in New York, Washington D.C., and Philadelphia. Plans were made for republishing the writings of H.P.B. and W.Q.J., and in 1925, the 50th anniversary of the birth of the Theosophical Movement of this century, an edition was published of The Secret Doctrine ..unaltered in any way... Mr. Crombie visited Mr. Wadia in New York and the plans already formulated took firmer shape... In 1928 Shri Wadia's work in the U.S.A. being finished he left for India via London...the U.L.T. was founded in Paris and plans were made for one in Amsterdam... [This is quoted from pp 2-4 of Theodore Leslie Crombie, Friend of India, by Ethel Beswick -- Nov. 1958,, Pub.: International Book House Ltd., 9 Ash Lane, Bombay 1, India] Further Extracts from a Private Letter - WK - "...similarly, the work of Mr. Wadia. His faithfulness to HPB, WQJ, and to the ideals of Theosophy, and function of the ULT are all reflected in his writings. Originally, when he knew only of the TS and made himself into a student of HPB through his study of The Secret Doctrine, and of Isis Unveiled, he followed faithfully the policies of the T S, so long as he was in it and had responsibility to it. When he entered Adyar to work there, Col. Olcott was still alive. He gave his pledge then to that venerable (though often mistaken) man to work for Theosophy under him. Olcott accepted this offer. After Olcott' death, he gave the same pledge to Annie Besant, believing her to be the one primarily responsible for carrying on the work of HPB. [ He knew nothing at that time of W. Q. Judge, or of the history of the split in the TS in America after HPB's death. Those matters had been, by then, covered over and largely forgotten in the TS in Adyar, in India. ] When, in 1919, he went to America and learned of the work and the principles of WQJ through associates of the ULT, and of the true history of the modern Theosophical Movement, he realized that a change was to be made by him to be true to his primary vow: to HPB, and to the support of her work and of the Objects of The Work in the World that the Masters had instituted through Her. It had been made clear to him how the T S had failed. He knew that the T S ought to be restored to its original objectives and work, but he did not know if Annie Besant would agree to do that. In any case he was faced with a trial: whether to stay on with the T S, which he now knew to be false to its origins, or whether he should try to redress it, by going directly to Annie Besant, and asking her to publicly redress the wrongs done to Mr. Judge, and thus begin the hard process of swinging the whole T S back into the channels that HPB and the Masters had originally designed it should follow. When he returned to India in 1921-22, after his work in Europe and America, he told Annie Besant what he had discovered about Judge, and about the band of students in the ULT who were following the Original Program. He asked her to make it public that the wrong done to Judge was to be redressed--as she agreed had been done, to him, privately. But, Annie Besant refused to do this publicly, or to start altering the course of the TS. He then resigned, and, getting out of the TS, wrote a magnificent open letter to all Theosophists where he exposed the situation, his own decision, and advised them of his joining the ULT and his reasons for that: to "spread broadcast the writings of HPB and WQJ." W. E. Whiteman on BPW [The following is from the pen of Mr. Wadia's long time friend and devoted companion: Winifred E. Whiteman of the London, U.K., U.L.T. Miss Whiteman served as his literary "agent" in Europe, securing articles for The Aryan Path magazine (1930-1960); and also serving as European representative for The Indian Institute of World Culture, which he had launched in Bangalore, India, in 1945, and for which she organized a London branch. ] B. P. Wadia and the Theosophical Movement "The mighty Theosophical Movement" was a phrase that 'B.P.' often used, and the adjective seems to match him also--even to his sense of humor. We owe the creative and inspiring guidelines, that reinforce and augment those of Robert Crosbie, the founder of the United Lodge of Theosophists [U.L.T.], to the breadth as well as the depth of his outlook. In the opening Editorial of Volume I of The Theosophical Movement, 17th November 1930, (exactly a year after the Bombay Lodge had started up the U.L.T. work in India) appeared the following, that echoed the idea that 'B.P.' had himself expressed. There are two aspects to the Theosophical Movement, the abstract and the concrete. The first is diffused and expansive. Wherever thought has struggled to be free, wherever spiritual ideas, as opposed to forms and dogmatism, have been promulgated, there the great Movement is to be discerned. This aspect can rightly be named the Republic of Conscience; for, wherever human conscience is ac6M3 ive, in honesty and sincerity, there the potency of Theosophy is present. The Aryan Path (founded January 1930) is the vehicle of this aspect of the Movement, while it also presents teachings of practical value to the aspirant for the Higher Life and to the students of the esoteric science. The other, the concrete and visible aspect of the Movement revolves round the Teachings of H.P.B. known to the world as H. P. Blavatsky. Accepting the cooperation of others she founded the Theosophical Society in 1875 in the city of New York, under the direct guidance and inspiration of the Masters, who by birth and affiliation are Indians. The U.L.T. activities, and the magazine Theosophy (started November 1912) and The Theosophical Movement were founded to serve the needs of student-servers of 'Theosophy pure and simple.' The Aryan Path brought in contributors, many of them prominent in their own fields, whose writings and general outlook were significantly part of the more diffused aspect of the Movement, so much so that The Theosophical Movement, in its section 'Theosophical Activities' gave it equal mention with those of more specific Theosophical import. The same ideal and purpose were behind the founding of the Indian Institute of Culture (as it was named at first) at Bangalore on 11th August 1945 (H.P.B.'s birthday) thus affirming again the link between the two aspects of the Movement. The word "World" was included later in its title to emphasize the breadth of the ideal. The need to recognize the relationship between the two fields of Theosophical service continued to be referred to periodically in The Theosophical Movement. An article published in its 17th of December 1935 issue. entitled "The Aryan Path" emphasized its dual purpose. It was to make the East and the West aware of the beauty and value of each other's culture, and also to give help to the "very large body of aspirants to the higher life outside of Theosophical circles" in avoiding the dangers of sectarianism and psychism. Secondly, that purpose included Theosophists also, for, as a Master wrote: "The sun of Theosophy must shine for all, not for a part. There is more of this movement than you have had an inkling of, and the work of the T.S. is linked in with similar work that is secretly going on in all parts of the world." The article further warned: "The Theosophical student of this generation has to guard himself against two extremes: one is to limit the freedom of thought and to live like a frog who looks upon his pond as the world, with nothing outside; the other is to expand and embrace indiscriminately--in the name of brotherhood and fraternization--falsehood, ignorance and humbug." The Aryan Path enables the Theosophical student to learn what able minds in East and West alike are thinking and how many among them understand propositions of the philosophy of Theosophy even better than himself and his companions. It will also show him how the race-mind is unfolding and in what ways humanity is getting ready for the cycle of 1975. If The Aryan path takes Theosophy to the thinking public, it brings in a compact form to the Theosophical student from the world of science, philosophy and art, ideas and views and even inspiration which he sorely needs and so helps him to live and to labor for his Cause in a better fashion. A further article "Local Theosophists" (The Theosophical Movement, 17th Nov. 1938) quoted from H.P.B.'s Five Messages that "although there must be local Branches...there can be no local Theosophists." The world is wider than any Theosophical organization, and if we would be universal in character, we must fight against narrowness and keep our interest in what is going on in the outside world. And we shall find that there we have our friends and allies...is the "local Theosophist" going to pass by unheeded a book like Mr. Aldous Huxley's Ends and Means, simply because H.P.B. is not quoted from or mentioned, therein ? Is the power of the Spirit in man to be limited to"Theosophical organizations" only ? Perish the thought ! We have to look for Theosophical ideas, ideas which, largely owing to the life of sacrifice of H.P.B. have percolated (albeit unconsciously to themselves) into the minds of our great thinkers--and welcome them whenever and wherever we find them. The magazine, however, was only the starting point, for, once the last World War was over, the same aim and purpose was further developed, spreading out into the broader field of the Indian Institute of World Culture. This, in addition to its publications, offers a wide range of talks, exhibitions, drama, dance, film shows and other demonstrations, in furtherance of its objectives. In his Inaugural Address at the opening of the William Quan Judge Hostel for students (the Institute's first unit) B.P. declared that "in the great and immemorial records of the thoughts of Sages and Seers certain definite principles of fundamental value are to be found." Poets are better social builders than politicians, and the thoughts of philosophers make a deeper impress and last longer in influence than deeds of social reformers. Ideas rule the world and they primarily emanate from poets and philosophers, from mystics and occultists. These great ideas make most suitable foundations. Once their efficacy is experienced in application by an individual he leaves behind the world of chaos and strife and begins to glimpse a world of order, understanding and peace...the Hostel is part of a larger plan, through which the Ancient Culture which is neither of the East nor of the West but is universal, will, it is hope, become manifest. In the spirit of fraternity and brotherhood men and women must learn to live in freedom and liberty. But the heart of B.P.'s efforts was his 'concern' (in the Quaker sense of the word) for those student-strivers who sought more ardently for greater power to help the Movement. Only those who know fully the range of his personal contacts and widespread correspondence could evaluate the measure of the effects on these of his advice, encouragement and profound heart wisdom. The bringing together of some of his articles from The Theosophical Movement in the little book Living the Life can be summed up in a sentence from the ending of the first article, a mantram that B.P.'s own life embodied: Continued in Part 7 of 7 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:20:23 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 7 of 7 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980223202023.006ae4fc@mail.eden.com> WAD-BB1 (wad-f7) Continued from Part 6 of 7 The living Power of Theosophy must become the power by which we live. W. E. Whiteman Extracts from a Talk Given at the I.I.W.C. in 1981 by Jehanghir M. Tijoriwalla, Bar-at-Law, of Bombay at Bangalore. Oct. 16th., 1981 This day marks the birth-centenary of Bahman Pestonji Wadia. He worked in the cause of labor and the Home Rule Movement of India, leaving plain Theosophical traces on all causes he espoused. This he did through the Theosophical Society, then for thirty years thereafter he lived and labored for the Cause of Those whom Theosophists call The MASTERS, and in whom they recognize the successors of the ancient and far-distant Rishis. B.P.'s student days took him up to the "matriculation examination." Thereafter, for a short time the young B.P. worked for an English firm, but resigned when he found that service in its business house meant at times a deliberate departure from the Truth, on occasions when business interest demanded it. Sometime, during the ninety of the last century, he received a present of the two volumes of THE SECRET DOCTRINE written by Mme. H.P.Blavatsky. The fates act sometimes thus. This birthday present gave his life a fresh and more profound orientation. As he read and studied his soul awakened to deeper purposes for living. He deliberately chose H.P.B. as his guru. His daily contact with THE SECRET DOCTRINE remained unbroken throughout his life. Did She not speak to him, guide and admonish him through the pages of her book? Her body had died in 1891, but to him, She lived, She was a Living Force. Looking around for a suitable organization through which he might channel his efforts he could find none better than the Theosophical Society. To its venerable President Founder: Col. H. S. Olcott he made application, was accepted and worked thereafter in the Bombay Branch of the T.S. Shortly after Col. Olcott's death he went to work at Adyar. The plight of the laborers in the Buckingham and Karnatic Mills textile mills came to his attention when a delegation of these called upon Mrs. Annie Besant, asking for assistance. She asked him to attend to that for her, as her delegate. Having espoused with success the cause of the laborer, B.P. observed India now found itself involved in the fortunes of Britain engaged in World War I. India had been promised a gradual increment in political responsibility by the English rulers. When this was shelved, Mrs. Besant indignantly launched the Theosophical Society behind the Home Rule Movement in an effort to secure the implementation of those promises. Addendum on Mr. W. Q. Judge 1894-96 As an aside to this narration of the work and life of BPW it becomes necessary to write of the events in 1894-1896 involving Mr. Judge, Mrs. Besant and Col. Olcott after the death of HPB, so that the perspective is clear and some understanding of what Mr. Wadia found out is had as of 1919-1922. BPW determined that in 1894-6 Mrs. Besant, and Col. Olcott, were the prime cause of a serious problem caused by their misunderstanding of Mr. Judge's stand and function for Theosophy. He was accused by them ( Mrs. Besant taking the position of a "prosecutor)" of fraudulently imitating or copying the Masters' handwriting when providing them with certain "messages" which came from Them. Mrs. Besant and other recipients admitted that the content of the messages was not being questioned, only the fact that they seemed to be written in scripts that were used before H.P.B. died. She, of course, was no longer there to use them. This was a puzzle. How did Judge figure in this ? The original founders of the T S, in 1875, being more interested in spiritualism, rather than in philosophical and religious investigation, soon dropped away from membership in the T.S. Only HPB, WQJ AND Olcott remained steadfast until their death to the work of the Masters and to Their Cause. In terms of time it should be remembered that Mrs. Besant had contacted HPB and Theosophy late in 1888, or 13 years after the T.S. was established. This occurred because after she had been asked to review The Secret Doctrine she was so struck by the wisdom to be found therein, that she determined to meet Mme. Blavatsky. Shortly thereafter she joined the T.S. in London (May 1889). As she was an accomplished thinker and writer, and as her sincerity in adopting the Theosophical outlook and life was evident, Mme. Blavatsky asked her to assist in editing her magazine Lucifer as co-editor. Mrs. Besant had only had about two and a half years experience in the T.S. in this incarnation, before HPB, her teacher, "died." Whereas Mr. Judge, and Col. Olcott had been in it, and with HPB since the outset, or 19 years earlier, when in 1894, accusations against Mr. Judge were made public by Mrs. Besant and Col. Olcott. Mr. Judge stated openly at that time, that he was in frequent touch with the Masters and that the said messages were Theirs and not his; nor had he written them. He offered to prove this, but none of the accusers took him up on this offer to demonstrate, as history reveals. [ Both HPB, WQJ and others had, earlier, published a number of articles in Lucifer and The Path concerning the rationale of letter "precipitation"--how a "matrix" impressed and long established in the electro-magnetic substance of the astral light could be repeatedly used to save psy6M3 hic energy--in sending new communications. Such a matrix did not extinguish with the "death" of any one person, but could continue to be used, as in these cases, where another person might be used as the focus for that work to be done, as, apparently, Judge was so used. It was the context and the content, as well as an interior code impressed in the "message" by the sender which certified to its authenticity. No "seal" or other external physical appearance could be used by unconcerned parties to make a determination of its authenticity. These criteria alone would not serve an inquirer in verifying the genuineness of the letters, or other artifacts, precipitated from the astral light. It may be recalled that earlier, suspicions had been entertained in HPB' life time of the genuineness of certain letters from the Mahatmas, like the "Prayag letter." She, and Damodar K. Mavlankar had been the targets of such suspicions by Sinnett and Olcott.] Judge had warned Col. Olcott in advance that in his esteem, an attempt in the T S to make a ruling on such a question would establish a "belief in Masters" as a dogma of the T. S.--which specifically disavowed any dogmatism. On this point the "Judicial Committee" convened by Col. Olcott in London in July 1894 agreed; the "charges" against Judge were dropped, and amity was ostensibly restored. The membership of the T S were sent a report by Col. Olcott entitled "On the Neutrality of the T S." For some unfortunate reason this setback rankled with those who had made themselves accusers of Mr. Judge. These accusations were renewed in the beginning of the next year, 1895 with increased rancor. Col. Olcott. on Sept. 7th 1895 excommunicated, in effect, the whole American Section of the T.S., which had, by his, Col. Olcott's earlier suggestion, [see his letter written in 1893 addressed to W. Q. Judge--quoted in Canadian Theosophist, 1923, Vol. 4, p. 1, and March 15th p. 11.] reconstituted itself at its Annual Convention held in April 1894, "The Theosophical Society in America," in full fraternal association with all Theosophical Societies anywhere. This excommunication goes against the first object of the Society: brotherhood. End of Part 7 of 7 = = = From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:49:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 3 of 7 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980223204900.006ae4fc@mail.eden.com> WAD-A3(wad-f3) Continued from Part 2 of 7: He further spoke of his finding that W.Q.Judge had been wronged in the period of 1894-96 by those in the T.S. who had attacked him on flimsy and insufficient evidence. The 18 page pamphlet he issued stated :-- TO ALL MY FELLOW THEOSOPHISTS AND MEMBERS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY A statement by B. P. Wadia This included: His letter of July 18th 1922 to Mrs. Annie Besant as President of the TS, and the General Council. A letter of explanation about the divergence from HPB's Theosophy and the Original Program by the TS; how he had found the ULT which was dedicated to that. His letter of resignation dated 18th July 1922 addressed to the General Secretary of the Indian Section TS resigning from the Indian Council and the T S. After his resignation he returned to Los Angeles. As an associate of the ULT, he worked thereafter for Theosophy in company with that body of students dedicated to the promulgation of original Theosophy as it was to be found in the writings of H. P. Blavatsky and W. Q. Judge. Oct. 1st 1922 In response, the T S, Adyar, issued : "An Open Letter to Mr. Wadia" by J. Nityananda and J. Krishnamurthi. This was reprinted by Krotona, Hollywood in America, Oct. 1st 1922 and circulated to the American T S membership. 1923-28 Many members of the T S all over the world who were interested in HPB's Theosophy as she taught it, separated themselves from the T S and became associates of the ULT. This influx of new associates necessitated the formation of a number of new ULT Lodges in the Eastern seaboard of America: New York; Philadelphia, Pa.; Washington, D.C.; also several Study Groups were formed in other towns : Reading, Pa.; Chicago, Ill., some of these later became Lodges. A period of intensive education into the principles and fundamentals of Theosophy ensued. The impersonal practical work of teaching and spreading pure Theosophy, using the ULT methods, began for these new lodges and new associates. Mr. Wadia and other older students of the Los Angles Lodge threw themselves in to this work, and spent long months in various new centers that had been formed, so the work flourished. But the need for Lodges, so associates could meet for mutual study and work went beyond America and soon Lodges were formed in London, England (1925); Paris, France (1928); Amsterdam and The Hague, Holland; Antwerp, Belgium, and elsewhere. Writing about the period from 1925 to 1928, we have these notes written by one of his co-workers: - "Those who have known him in those early days felt the power and thrust of his will to work for the Great Lodge through the ULT. As it was essential to make a clean break with "Adyar Theosophy," he adopted an almost rigid attitude of exclusion to their works and writings. He advised students to concentrate on what Theosophy was, in terms of the actual wording used by HPB, WQJ and the Masters. He used to say that we ought to devote all our energies to that, the rest was unessential and was of interest to "just the present incarnation" and as such it would be "lost" when this personality "died." The other, Theosophy, was for "all time." And, that was where we ought to be placing our efforts. His work was to consolidate those old students of Judge and of the TS who desired to get back to the study of original Theosophy, and meld them with the new students who desired to learn, and had no background in Theosophy. A series of intensive study classes was started. Exercise and criticism for those who wanted to learn to do platform-work was instituted. He prepared and used for the Guidance of ULT Platform Workers a number of points they had to apply if they wish to work in that way for ULT." In New York, the U.L.T. used a large auditorium on the ground floor of the "Hotel des Artistes," at 1 West 67th ST., just off the Central Park, and near Columbia University campus. Meetings were held on Sunday: Theosophy School before noon, and a public lecture in the evening. Wednesday evening Study Class, Question and Answer Meeting; Friday: Ocean of Theosophy Study Class and then a Practice Class for new students and those who desired to do platform work. Other meetings were held during the week. Mr. Wadia conducted one of the Theosophy School Classes. Transcripts of 5 years of his work in this class exist. Students would meet in the evening, informally, several times a week at individual homes, to discuss Theosophy and various aspects of the work. This developed a large-hearted camaraderie and was an active manifestation of an active brotherhood which gathered in all ULT associates. Mr. Wadia, working at the New York Lodge had an office in the building and a large volume of correspondence was handled. Students from England came over to the New York Lodge to familiarize themselves with the program ULT had evolved of methods of work. ULT associates from Europe: France, Belgium, Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, etc., visited New York for the same reason, so methods of study and of promulgation of Theosophy were learned that could be used in their own ULT Lodges being soon were opened in England, France, Holland and Belgium. It was a whirlwind time when everything seemed to be happening at once, and the great influence to learn and promulgate spread over all those who served as the "seeds" around which future ULT Lodges and ULT work for the future would grow and flourish. The photographic plates needed to reprint The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled, and A Key to Theosophy, were prepared and in this way the original writings in their pristine form were again made available for students. This was one of the most important things done. HPB's major works could be again studied in unedited original. Mr. Wadia always held that it was dangerous to approach the study of The Secret Doctrine through the use of an "abridgment." Any such "filter," however impersonal and good, inevitably set up some "barriers" between HPB and the student. He also held that Isis Unveiled ought to be first studied and read. Its contents formed the most valuable introduction to Theosophy and to The Secret Doctrine. The Secret Doctrine then, ought to be approached slowly and following a steadily held determination, it ought to be read slowly, and time should be taken to comprehend what was read. It ought to be read a few pages a day, notes should be taken of the subjects covered, and gradually one should build up one's own reference books on the subjects covered in various places. Some held that HPB had "flitted" from subject to subject, apparently at random, but a careful study showed that there always was a cogent reason for those abrupt changes of subject. This reason ought to be looked for. The enthusiasm, intensity of study, of learning and practicing Theosophy, inspired by Mr. Wadia in the period between 1922 and 1928, seems to parallel the period when Mr. Judge worked between 1886-1896 in New York as a center and influenced Theosophical growth in the rest of America. Margaret Thomas, for instance was inspired to prepare and publish Theosophy or Neo-Theosophy so students could compare the differences made in presenting Theosophy by Mrs. Besant and Mr. Leadbeater, writers for the T S, after the death of HPB, and Mme. Blavatsky's original writings. Many articles for Theosophy magazine were written by BPW, and he used to say that several writers for that magazine were like brothers, one could write the first part of an article and the other finish it and no discernible change in style or handling. Or they would share the burden of writing a series of articles, each writing alternately. Certainly he had a unique rapport with those ULTers in Los Angeles who bore the responsibilities that Mr. Crosbie had passed on to them. It is there and in consultation with those students, that the plans were laid to return HPB Theosophy to Europe and India, to open a ULT Lodge in London, Paris and later in Bombay were worked out. Thus it was hoped the three areas (America, India and Europe) where HPB had laid foundations would be revived and original Theosophy would be again made available there. New York work followed that which had proved successful in Los Angeles: lectures, the answering of all questions, study classes, a library was started, and the lending of the more expensive books to students was provided for. The conduct of Theosophy School was at first a training ground for those who would be teachers, and weekly reviews were made of the work done by all teachers, co-teachers and reporters in turn. A meticulous and constant attention to all details of the work was supervised and carried out by him, so that within the brief space of 4 years a cadre of capable and knowledgeable volunteer students arose. Other Lodges were started on the East Coast of the US: Washington, Philadelphia, Reading, and several Study Classes were all attended to; they adopted and used the same pattern of intensive study and application, and attracted the attention of individuals who were interested in Theosophy to the focus of purposive, constructive work. Periodically Mr. Wadia used to take trips, visiting Lodges on the East coast and then swing back to the Los Angeles area, visiting San Diego, San Francisco and Lodges clustered in between those cities. Visiting senior students from Los Angeles would then come to the East Coast and work with the several Lodges there. There was a constant give and take that cemented the brotherhood in the common work. When Mr. Wadia mentioned his intention to take HPB's original teachings, using the ULT work and method to India and establish ULT in Bombay as such a basis, several students became enthusiastic about this. Preparations were made each on their own, but in collaboration with others to sail for Bombay, so as to reach India towards the end of l928. There, they planned to spend the next few months locating a suitable place to hold meetings, and also make residential arrangements for themselves and another group of student workers that was to follow, coming with Mr. Wadia early in 1929. Along with BPW, several New York students intended to come. Later on, Mr. T. L. Crombie of London planned to help in the editing when the magazines were to be started. In the establishment of the ULT in Bombay and the individual conduct of those students from America and Europe who offered their help, Mr. Wadia laid stress on the need for the most correct of personal demeanors by those who would support and work closely with him in there, as local customs were quite different from those prevailing in the countries of their birth. He made it clear that there would have to be a molding of the private life of the visitors to fit and agree with the cultural customs of the Indians, rather than with those of the "ruling British" and other "whites," including Americans, who, in business or as missionaries, when living in India had adopted an aloof attitude of life from the Indians, an attitude borrowed from the British rulers of that conquered country. 1925 London saw the inauguration of the ULT Lodge there on November 17th, 1925. A group of seven of BPW's friends from his Adyar days had resolved on this and established study classes, a library, and a regular monthly schedule of meetings. The Bulletin of the London ULT began publication in 1930. In London Mr. Trevor Barker, an old acquaintance of BPW, had already published The Mahatma Letters to A.P.Sinnett. In regard earlier to publishing this, Mr. Barker had written Mr. Wadia and told him of his intention of printing those letters. Mr. Wadia replied that he did not think it was advisable to do that. Mr. Barker disregarded this advice and went ahead and had them published. Later when he met Mr. Wadia in London, he is said to have again asked: "Did I do right in publishing them ?" To this BPW answered: "You should not have published them, but I am glad that you did it." At that time he was engaged in a fresh project, the editing of H.P.Blavatsky's Letters to A.P.Sinnett. 1928 A group of students active in France and in Paris wanted to take advantage of Mr. Wadia's visit to establish their own ULT in Paris. Their Lodge was founded and the first meeting held on September 21st 1928. Since 1925, under the inspiration of Mr. Wadia, two members of the T S in France who had left it, feeling dissatisfied, and they had started a monthly magazine named Theosophie. The duties of editing the monthly, and later on, translations into French of Theosophical books was done. HPB and WQJ's writings were published. Prior to the end of 1928, together with Mr. T. L. Crombie Mr. & Mrs. Wadia visited the Netherlands in October, staying at the home of Mr. T. F. Vreede near The Hague. He had been instrumental in bringing back pure Theosophy as presented by the ULT in that town and in Amsterdam. BPW gave a number of talks and conducted study classes. 1929 Between January and the end of April 1929, Mr. Wadia lectured for the London ULT at the Victoria Hall, Bloomsbury, to packed audiences (300 +). The London Lodge was then housed in rented premises in a building a couple of blocks from Marble Arch. [ During the 2nd World War, that building was bombed, a large number of books were destroyed, and while temporary repairs enabled meetings to be continued, it was apparent that the London Lodge would have to seek for new premises. When a building was purchased at 62 Queen's Gardens, near Paddington Station, the Lodge made its move.] The London Branch of the Aryan Path magazine (begun in 1930) worked out of the building; and in the floor devoted to the Library, meetings were held for the London Branch of Indian Institute of World Culture (started in 1945 in Bangalore, India by Mr. Wadia). In March 1929, Mr. and Mrs. Wadia were in London. They were visited by many students from Europe. They, in turn, visited a number of the ULT Lodges there before beginning their trip to India. A ULT Study Group was started in Amsterdam under the inspiration received by some of its residents from their visits and talks with him. The Antwerp Lodge was inaugurated on November 17th 1956. Lodges were also started in Amsterdam and The Hague. INDIA Bringing original and pure Theosophy back to India, was next. Those students who had gone ahead, had established themselves there, and had found a suitable hall for meetings in the "Fort" the business district of south Bombay, at 51 Esplanade Rd., Flora Fountain. They had located a suitable residential complex at 17 Bomanji Petit Rd. in Malabar Hill, 4 miles away, where apartments were available for all those who were coming. The Wadias had a small detached bungalow in the same compound. Mr. and Mrs. Wadia landed in Bombay on May 31st, 1929 just before the monsoon rains of that season arrived. The Bombay branch of the ULT was opened on November 17th 1929. The inaugural meeting found the ULT hall full and overflowing. Mr. Wadia was well known and soon Sophia Wadia, an excellent speaker was also appreciated. Speaking engagements asked for by various social and communal groups poured in, asking them to lecture on Theosophy or on some aspect or other of the ancient tenets of that faith. As the reputation of the ULT grew, so did the regular membership, and Study Classes, Question and Answer Meetings, a Theosophy School for children on Saturday afternoon kept everyone busy most of the week. The Library was kept open for the public every day except Sunday from 10.00 a.m. to 5.30 p.m. 1930 - The Aryan Path January 1930 saw the first issue of The Aryan Path (the noble path) magazine, supported by articles and editorials, by Mr. Wadia and Mr. T.L.Crombie, who acted as sub-editor. Mme. Wadia allowed her name to used as "Editor." Mr. Wadia was of the opinion that the future of Theosophy in its presentation to the world would be, in one way, through the work of the future writers and poets of the world. Accordingly he and Sophia Wadia had earlier became members of the International P.E.N. Club. They organized its Indian chapter and maintained offices for it, a monthly magazine called The Indian P.E.N. was started. 1930 -- The Theosophical Movement Magazine November 17th 1930 saw the issuing of the first number of The Theosophical Movement. All articles were unsigned therein, except those that had been written by H.P.B., W.Q.J. or others who had made signed contributions in the older Theosophical magazines. A publishing program was started in Bombay, to reprint articles and the shorter texts written by HPB and WQJ. These were issued in both book and pamphlet form. 1934 A large, house was purchased for the Wadias and several other active families of associates to live in. It was located at the foot of Malabar Hill, on the shore of the Arabian Sea facing the West. Some 20 ULTers lived in "Aryasangha" for 25 years in great harmony and friendliness. The Wadias occupied the upper floor of the main building, and whenever some visitor came, or some event of theosophical significance presented itself, associates from all over the area were always invited to come. Many important persons, prominent in the Movement, were thus met, and important events occurred in which Mr. Wadia arranged that we could participate. 1938 In 1938 a sister Lodge of the Bombay ULT was opened in Matunga, about 11 miles to the north of the original Bombay ULT. The reason for this was that a number of students living there desired a permanent Study Class and meeting hall. Mr. Wadia gave the inaugural talk there. Two weekly meetings and a public library were maintained there. After the death of Mr. Crombie, the original co-editor of The Aryan Path, Dr. Eleanor M. Hough and others assisted Mr. Wadia in his editing task for this magazine. Mme. Wadia continued to lend her name to it as its "Editor" until it ceased publication, soon after Mr. Wadia's death. [See T. L. Crombie - Friend of India by Ethel Beswick, published, Bombay, Nov. 1958.] 1941 In 1941 equipment was bought to set up a printing press for the Bombay U.L.T. One of the students, an experienced printer, who lived in Baroda, some 260 miles North of Bombay, offered to equip the "Sadhana (responsibility) Press," so that the three magazines and other theosophical books could be printed reliably and without strain. Continued in Part 4 of 7 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:54:32 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Fee for TS Programs -- Miami Example Message-ID: <34F10F18.511582C6@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > One well known and well respected member > once said TS from day one given everything for free and that is how the > organization was built. He may have been well-known and respected, but he doesn't know his Theosophical history. It is true that fees were considered to be undesirable. However, they were also considered superior to some other options. In Micellaneous Notes from Lucifer, Vol II, No. 17, January, 1889 (volume 10, page 295 in the Collected Writings), Blavatsky wrote: "Gladly would our Soceity abolish even the small entrance fee, had it any funds, however small, to carry on the work which increases daily, and many branches have already done so. For several years no initiation fees were paid; but our scanty and even joint means were found insufficient to maintain the Headquarters, pay the stationery, and the ever-increasing postage, and feed and lodge all those who volunteered to work gratis for theosophy. Thus, the fees were re-established. Other Societies beg for, and are given, large sums of money, but the T. S. never does. Nevertheless, the taunt that the Founders sell Theosophy, creating Theosophists for 1# or twenty shillings, a head, is being repeatedly thrust into our faces! And yet the poor are never made to pay anything at all. And if those who have the means will refuse to help us do good to the disinherited and the suffering, what are those who have given all they had, and have nothing now to give but their services, to do?" (the 1# reference is 1 pound, but that symbol is not part of the standard ASCII character set). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:50:46 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Condemning others' topics of discussion Message-ID: <199802231450.JAA15965@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Dear Robert, Dallas, Cayce students, theos-l participants: This morning's mail brought two examples, on two different lists, of a particular kind of post that I find very unproductive. It's a kind that puts down what a large number of people on the list are finding engaging, interesting, worthy of discussion, and says in essence "Since *I personally* am uninterested in this subject I request/propose/demand that *all* of you drop it whether or not your interest in it is exhausted." I could apply many adjectives to the attitude implicit in such a demand/request/proposal but will limit myself to two: selfish and nonconstructive. An unselfish and constructive way to do the same thing would be to actually *do* yourselves what you are proposing that everyone else do. *Submit* a post on "the spiritual meaning of real life" that excludes real life of shipwreck victims/survivors. *Submit* a post on the doctrinal aspects of Theosophy that makes no reference to the politics of the Theosophical Society. Putting down others for what they post while posting nothing yourself of the sort of thing you say *ought* to be posted is hardly helpful. "Light a candle, or curse the darkness?" According to Robert E. Stephens: > > My God!!! What is so important about the movie or the disaster that we > expound, expand, extoll, explicate (is there such a word), examine, > explore and ex- and ex- and ex, ad infinitum about what is to me a > meaningless subject. Let us get back to the spiritual meaning of real > life. All those posts you've been deleting might have provided some evidence as to why it's important. I've given all my reasons so won't list them again. > > Robert > > P.S. Not aimed at you Ann in particular, but to us all. I delete every > message for the last week which mentions Titanic or is Titantic. I delete a whole lot of messages but have never felt the need to condemn them. This is not aimed at you Robert, or you Dallas in particular, but to all who feel called to post messages that either angrily or loftily condemn the conversation of others without providing anything constructive as a change of pace. I've seen it on a great many lists and newsgroups. Best wishes, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:51:50 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: FW: 1900 letter (fwd) Message-ID: <199802231451.JAA16118@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> per Doss's request: > > > > > A psychic and pranayamist who has got confused by the vagaries of > > the members. The T.S. and its members are slowly manufacturing a > > creed. Says a Thibetan proverb "credulity breeds credulity and > > ends in hypocrisy." How few are they who can know anything about > > us. Are we to be propitiated and made idols of. Is the worship > > of a new Trinity made up of the Blessed M. Upasika and yourself > > to take the place of exploded creeds. We ask not for worship of > > ourselves. The disciple should in no way be fettered. Beware of > > an Esoteric Popery. The intense desire to see Upasika > > reincarnate at once has raised a misleading Mayavic ideation. > > Upasika has useful work to do on higher planes and cannot come > > again so soon. The T.S. must be safely ushered into the new > > century. You have for some time been under deluding influences. > > Shun pride, vanity and love of power. Be not guided by emotion > > but learn to stand alone. Be accurate and critical rather than > > credulous. The mistakes of the past in the old religions must > > not be glossed over with imaginary explanations. The E.S.T. must > > be reformed to as to be as unsectarian and creedless as the T.S. > > The rules must be few and simple and acceptable to all. No one > > has the right to claim authority over a pupil or his conscience. > > Ask him not what he believes. All who are sincere and pure > > minded must have admittance. The crest wave of intellectual > > advancement must be taken hold of and guided into spirituality. > > It cannot be forced into beliefs and emotional worship. The > > essence of the higher thoughts of the members in their > > collectivity must guide all action in the T.S. and E.S. We never > > try to subject to ourselves the will of another. At favourable > > times we let loose elevating influences which strike various > > persons in various ways. It is the collective aspect of many > > such thoughts that can give the correct note of action. We show > > no favours. The best corrective of error is an honest and > > open-minded examination of all facts subjective and objective. > > Misleading secrecy has given the death blow to numerous > > organizations. The cant about "Masters" must be silently but > > firmly put down. Let the devotion and service be to that Supreme > > Spirit of which one is a part. Namelessly and silently we work > > and the continual references to ourselves and the repetition of > > our names raises up a confused aura that hinders our work. > > You will have to leave a good deal of your emotions and > > credulity before you become a safe guide among the influences > > that will commence to work in the new cycle. The T.S. was meant > > to be the cornerstone of the future religions of humanity. To > > accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak > > predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular > > creed and show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner > > thoughts and outward observance. The greatest of your trials is > > yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your > > strength. > > > > K.H. > > > > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:38:12 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: more on the subject Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980223113812.0079f680@pop.netaddress.com> Hi to all Doss. this is the link i was telling you. is in spanish, but i think someone can translate this to you (and to all) http://moon.inf.uji.es/~roc/ spanish site on the dangers on the sects. it has something on NA. check it out. in Eudora i do not know which is the putting link system, unfortunately. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:54:48 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: more on the subject Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980223135448.007896cc@mail.eden.com> Hi Can you provide a short summary in English? Specifically any mention of racism and any criminal or other problems in any countries. mkr ============================================ At 02:46 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hi to all >Doss. this is the link i was telling you. is in spanish, but i think >someone can translate this to you (and to all) > >http://moon.inf.uji.es/~roc/ > >spanish site on the dangers on the sects. it has something on NA. >check it out. in Eudora i do not know which is the putting link system, >unfortunately. >Estrella > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:32:33 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Let's augment! Message-ID: In message <34F1033B.369D69EE@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > And I would like to note how TI seems to have augmented rather than >fractioned Theosophy as a whole. > > Bart Lidofsky So come and augment with us, Bart! Thanks for the observation, too. There are a number of links on the website (below) to people and places whose views in many cases I personally do not share - but the ideal of the 3 objects is to *seek* truth, not to define it for all time and all people. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:26:23 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1433 Message-ID: In message <34F102F0.A6B61D48@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >> the Adyar-based TS. I was reflecting only yesterday that HPB >> produced two major works - Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine. > > I kinda liked NIGHTMARE TALES.... > > Bart Lidofsky > Now we're back to the list again .... ! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:55:18 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 5 of 7 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980223205518.006ae4fc@mail.eden.com> Wad-ba2 (wad-f5) Continued from Part 4 of 7 Miss Jeanne Sims of Los Angeles might know more of Mr. Wadia's life and work. She was helpful in providing copies of her work compiled from Mr. Wadia's writings. I would say, by and large, that the record left us, in writing, is the most reliable of those of individual worth. We have, fortunately had some great personages who have supported and worked for Theosophy in those remnants of the T S that ought to be vigorously pursuing the work that HPB died to give to us. In the ranks of the anonymous ULT students who have patiently and perseveringly carried on the work of preservation, of study, and of promulgation of the original teachings of Theosophy very little is known or referred to. Emphasis is given to those teachings, not to the people who have made U.L.T. successful in its work, so far. If you have not seriously studied the work of the ULT, you ought to do that. It gives no eminence to anyone. It responds to the need of those who wish to study and to work for Theosophy. Those who seek no recompense or personal stature, and who are moved only by a sense of the debt they owe to HPB, to WQJ, and, behind them, stand the Masters, and to their brother men--humanity. They are especially grateful to all the Great Ones who have kept the grand ideals alive. And, understanding Their love for Humanity as a whole, are those who support and work for it. They abandon ( while not being ignorant of ) any "official" considerations such as those offered by organizations like the various T.S.'s or their offshoots. In that impersonal principle and its strict application lies ULT's inherent strength. Its Declaration, and the implication of self-discipline and of cooperation with ones' fellows as embodied there, preclude any personal aggrandizement. It enshrines a self-cleansing nature which combs out those who prove to be unfit to keep its vitality alive. If this is applied successfully by our descendants, then it will continue constructively for a while. But I can anticipate that eventually it may fail. From 1909 up to now (1995) is 86 years. The greatest barrier to those who might desire to "join" the ULT is the lack of recognition of a personal nature that they will receive. They will have all the responsibilities and none of the advertising ! But consider the fact that we are all immortals - they will have to pick up from where they left off in the next life -- we always do. There is a real power in a strenuous life for Theosophy. But this cannot be confined by anyone. It has to be diffused, and the wider, the better. So long as the ULT retains its independent-dependence it will serve as the "Voice of Conscience" for Theosophists in the world. The hot flame of truth in action burns away all useless chaff from the "golden grain" of duty. Its main purpose is to see that the original teachings of Theosophy are faithfully made available to inquirers. When this task was first entrusted to the other "societies," it was soon noticed that "Editorial changes, emendations, deletions and alterations" crept in, so as to obscure those originals, and make more difficult to find those instructions which those who are innately esotericists seek. This is a great danger. It is, in effect, the arrogation to ones' self a knowledge that pretends to transcend that of HPB and the Masters. Even the ULT has, and will undergo "shocks." There are constant attempts to cause minor and major disruptions. Only the Declaration (and its constant use and study) provides a "shield" for these to glance off of relatively harmlessly. Now consider with me the action that Mr. Wadia chose to take, and make of his capacities a part of the supportive understructure of this "shield," and add to the penetrating work of "true Theosophy." This does not mean that an independent T S -- as all Branches were deemed to be, and as, for instance, the Edmonton Lodge in Canada is -- cannot use and apply identical principles. It was originally intended that the individual T S es would be exactly like the free and independent but confederated states that entered into the same Union as the USA did. No one state could rule another and the Federation was intended as administrative expediency and coordination, not rule. This has been the source of abuse of all democratic states. where the central federation has made of itself, and of some of its more powerfully conniving units (persons) rulers. Unfortunately Olcott in his zeal to administer problems fairly, made it autocratic. It is said that the Mission, the work of HPB was to "change the Manas and the Buddhi of the Race." [W.Q.J.LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME, p. 72] This is a peculiar phrase, but one which is vibrant with the effort of the spiritual will--how best to move millions of minds and psyches to a consciousness of their own worth, to the sense of the independence that an immortal, eternal Being has inherently? That, destroys ignorance and "blind servitude" to any personal authority. We are now watching the unfolding of this process all around us, and all over the world. How can we best help? Precept and example do this. Keeping the purity of Theosophy alive and active in the world is the most essential thing that anyone can do. Reviving old corpses, is an exercise in wasting good energy. In effect it is an attempt to reverse the past; whereas a fresh beginning usually, under Karma, attracts those minds and hearts that are searching for Theosophy. The old group, if they wanted Theosophy would not have let the organization founder! The failure to apply brotherhood is that which has caused all the failures in the recent revival of the Theosophical Movement. It is time now for self-healing, if possible. Establishing new bodies for work takes time, but if the old cannot be brought back to the original lines, then that is what has to be done. Hence the establishment and support of the ULT activity, where such delays ought to be precluded. Mr. Wadia made a personal change to devoting his life-work and energy to the ULT method - for those strong reasons. Did he submerge himself in it? Yes he did, and he always kept himself behind the ULT, pushing it, its purposes (Theosophy, Brotherhood, Promulgation), and the wider work in the world that the Theosophical Movement entails: The P.E.N., The Indian Institute of World Culture, and The Aryan Path magazine. [You could well ask why he did so. If you consider the various T S organizations around the world, then, and today (1994) you will realize that the ULT affords a totally free and responsible environment where independent study, cooperation, and non-authoritarian interdependence flourishes. So long as the ULT remains true to its Declaration it will offer a safe harbor to all who desire to truly work for humanity in brotherhood without any selfish motives of their own. The masthead of the monthly Program of Activities published by the ULT says it in brief: To Spread Broadcast the Teachings of Theosophy as Recorded in the Writings of H.P.Blavatsky and William Q. Judge.] In America, as another example of this kind of strenuous, impersonal, and wholly devoted work for the betterment of humanity, you have had: Manas magazine, a weekly magazine, edited up to the time of his death, by Henry Geiger - another ULT student for whom Theosophy represented the beacon-light of the Supreme Goal. He was its anonymous editor for over 40 years of devoted, disinterested but intensely practical service [1948-1988]. This magazine complemented and supplemented the work of the older already established magazine The Aryan (Noble) Path, which was started by Mr. Wadia and edited from Bombay from 1929, till his death in 1958 for 30 years.] For a moment, let me ask you to suppose that an Adept, or "HPB," returned, (and Mr. Judge wrote that She would, as soon as it was possible--see WQJ Articles II 214), and desired to work for Theosophy through the existing Theosophical Societies, bodies or groups -- do you think They (around 1920), would struggle with all the "political" posturing, and all the "contorted mind-sets" in the T.S. that currently exist, are partisan, and have the least to do with real Theosophy ? Or would he try to work through some body which was non-political, non-structured, and which insisted on perpetuating the work in original of both HPB and WQJ ? And, at the same time, held the personal nature of each individual student to the lowest possible point of interference in actual work. [ Read, for instance, Mr. Judge's article: "On Funds and Property, Path, Vol. 8, p. 354. ] In other words, would not the U.L.T. present a basis for the culling out of the T.S. of those who remained sincere students and friends of H.P.B. and the Masters ? In Theosophy, work is always available for those who want to work. Many hear the call, and in their hearts they respond, but when it comes to doing, they find reasons why they should refrain or abstain. It is this inner barrier that each has to study, because our success or failure for the present incarnation is to be found, there. Do we work for it, or do we hinder it by rejection, by distortion, or through tamasic indifference and inaction ? Each answers this to himself. The personality that we are, is placed by our karma directly into the Hall of the Two Truths. This is to be found in ancient Egyptian symbology of the after-death state of Amenti, where the Soul is judged, by the "heart" of the defunct being placed in the pan of the scales opposite the "feather" of Truth. Here, we judge ourselves: the Lower Self is that personal self. It is now judging itself in the Light that streams from the Atman our Higher Permanent Self. Mr. Judge in "Letters" uses the symbology of "the inside of a glove," as representing that Lower Self. Some meditation about that word and idea produce interesting results. The cycle that begins around 1975 has come, and is almost passed, as this is written in 1996, the evidence of power and change for the better surrounds us. How could the political, Theosophical, and human changes in Russia and Eastern Europe have come about - virtually bloodlessly - the great revolution in physics towards a use of mysticism and philosophy in describing inter-related disciplines such as chemistry, astronomy, physics and mathematics? Do we need new and sweeping religious brooms? We have Theosophy. But, are we making the best use of it ? It is the duty of the "companions," Judge said, to rediscover and to employ it. Both HPB and Judge prophesied that she might return. Are we sure she hasn't ? She as Ego Sum is just as immortal as we are in our inner essence, so why presume She is dead, or has abandoned those who work in the movement that she and The Masters commenced ? We are all under Her eye, whether we know it or not, or, like it or not! You ask about Mr. Wadia and his function. Do you not think that it was one of sustaining and lending strength in the only area (1919-29) where original Theosophy could be still broadcast? The reprinting of the original texts: Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled, Key, Voice, Theos. Glossary, Modern Panarion, 5 Years of Theosophy, HPB and Judge's Magazine Articles -- this was a responsibility assumed by the ULT as those pioneer texts went out-of-print, and when the light of original effort seemed to have waned and paled to a great low for the original T S. ULT has thus served to keep that "beacon light"--the "Phare de l'Inconnu"-- alive and vibrant with some of the original energy. Since then, others, active in the T Ses have picked up their torches. lit them again at that Source, and are carrying on as best they can. It is always and for ever the self-effort that counts. In some cases it is noticed that an appreciation of the functions of the U.L.T., and of each other's contiguous work has paved the way to brotherliness and greater cooperation among all those who employ the word Theosophy to designate their interests. This work of reprinting the "original teachings" was started under Robert Crosbie in Theosophy Magazine, which began its publication in November 1912. It was dedicated to reprint the articles of HPB and Judge that were, by then, out-of-print and unknown to the majority of those that formed the new generation of Theosophists. It is in this area that one can notice by a regular perusal of magazines issued by the various Theosophical bodies, that they have lost contact, as a whole, with the Original Teachings. Such a lack has allowed them to stray from a course originally set for them to pursue. Another of Theosophy magazine's functions was to clear away the confusion and vagueness as to what had actually happened in Theosophical chronology, and make the history of the Theosophical Society and its chief actors (H.P.B., Judge, Olcott and Annie Besant) a matter of public, and accessible record, to students and all other inquirers, and thus, strip away false secrecy, innuendo, hearsay, calumny and other confusions, such as false "authority," by quoting from original documents available to all inquirers. When Mr. Wadia broadcast his resignation from the T S and gave there his reasons, he combed a large number of sincere students and devotees of HPB and WQJ out of the T.S. into centers where the ULT and its "straight HPB Theosophy" would be used and studied by them. It was determined by him, and those others, who had responsibility for the guidance of the ULT work, that an intensive study of what Theosophy actually was, would be the first and most valuable tool to be used by all students. The promulgation and publishing work of the ULT was set to that objective, and continues to be. The study of the "Three Fundamentals" (Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, pp. 13-19), of the "Ancient Source of Theosophy" (Secret Doctrine, I, p. 272, #1) and of the "Ten Propositions of Oriental Psychology" (Isis Unveiled, Vol. II, pp. 587-8) was done at all study-class meetings as a preliminary. The intensive study of THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY by HPB, and of THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by WQJ was then pursued; and the special study of the BHAGAVAD GITA was undertaken. The republishing in photographic format of HPB's larger books (The Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled) was then taken up. The rest of the T.Ses have, since then, been forced to tag along, eventually, when they found that what they were then serving was not nourishing the deeper aspirations of their membership; and, further, they were accused of publishing distorted and obscured versions of HPB's original teachings (when their offerings were compared with the originals). They then reprinted the originals themselves. This has proved a real blessing to inquirers, as everyone now has easy access to those important books and facts through their wider diffusion. A further indication of Theosophy having "arrived" in the circles of Academia is the fact that a number of "graduate students" are found to be studying various aspects of theosophical history and the development of the applications of theosophical principles through the literature available, such as work with and for children. In the departments of Religious Studies in a number of Universities a Professorial Chair has been set up for the study and preservation of Theosophical material, and this has been done all around the world. It is amazing how many minds and hands try to "improve" on HPB. Or say, casually, "Well, if HPB were here now, she would say--this, or--that," and seek to modernize and up-date her, while unconsciously, perhaps, putting themselves forward, either as critics or as equals to HPB and the Masters ! Fortunately, science and good scientists know the value of the S.D., and use it. Those who are in the forefront of mathematics, physics, astronomy and philosophy (not to mention the social sciences, and the sciences that involve the mind, psychology and consciousness) are using it, and are familiar with its teachings and ideas. Unfortunately, there are still many who cannot distinguish Leadbeater divagations from the Esoteric Philosophy of the Ages. But that is another story. Do you have a copy of Margaret Thomas' Theosophy or Neo-Theosophy ? If you can get a copy you will soon see how much Leadbeater and Annie Besant have departed from the sources of pure Theosophy. --- WK FURTHER NOTE (from WK): In regard to your question about instituting the practice of providing a "Summer retreat for students of Theosophy." I can only think of the instance of Mr. Wadia, who owned, before he joined the ULT, a property in Ootacamund in the Nilgiri Mountains of South India. I think that the history of this place is adequately given in my bio-chronological notes on Mr. Wadia. The summer climate in Madras, of daily over 100 degrees and almost 100 per cent humidity, and little or no air-conditioning available, makes this a most punitive climate. The Nilgiris are over 7,000 feet high and the climate there is "an eternal Spring" --average 55/75 degrees. This From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:03:19 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 4 of 7 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980223200319.006ae4fc@mail.eden.com> WAD-BA-1 (Wad-f4)/wad-ba/WAD-B Continued from Part 3 of 7 1942 During the second World War, several students of ULT were suddenly transferred by their employers to new locations in the country. A number of them set up Study Classes and drew to themselves others who became in their turn students of Theosophy. Such Study Groups were formed in their homes in New Delhi (which in l960 became a Lodge), Calcutta, Poona, Baroda, and Madras. On the 12th of August 1942, the Bangalore Lodge of ULT was opened. A building named "Maitri Bhavan" (Abode of Friends) at 15, Sir Krishna Rao Rd., Basavangudi, Bangalore 4, houses a central hall for meetings, lectures, and study classes; a library devoted to Theosophical reference books; and also residential quarters for visiting students. It conducts a publishing program that is complementary to, and in harmony with that which the Bombay Lodge runs. In this work it has reprinted the many pamphlets that make the articles of HPB and WQJ available to students at low cost following the pattern adopted earlier by the Los Angeles Lodge. 1945 In 1945, on August 11th, the Indian Institute of Culture was started by Mr. Wadia, with Dr. L. S. Doraiswamy, as its first Secretary. This was to be an extension of Theosophical work, in line with the 2nd Object of the Theosophical Movement. This was designed to bring to Bangalore learned persons from many countries who were visiting India, who were asked to lecture or give short courses in their specialties there. It also served as a forum for prominent Indian specialists to lecture on their investigations and findings. Later the name of this institution was changed to The Indian Institute of World Culture. It houses a large library, sponsors many regular programs of talks, musical recitals, seminars. And, it has a substantial publishing program of books, transactions and pamphlets in addition to its regular monthly Bulletin. The inaugural meeting and many subsequent meetings were held at No. 1, North Public Square Rd. Some years later over an acre of land was acquired at No. 6, North Public Square Rd. for the IIWC Institute, and buildings were erected. These include a lecture hall, the Wm. Q. Judge Hostel for students, a Library, and other buildings. In 1959, following Mr. Wadia's death ( Aug. 20th l958 ), North Public Square Road was renamed by the Bangalore Municipality and citizenry: B. P. Wadia Road. 1955 On the 18th of February 1955 Mr. Wadia laid the corner stone for the present home of the ULT in Bombay at 40 New Marine Lines, ( Theosophy Hall ). 328 persons from several countries attended this foundation ceremony. 1957 November 9th 1957, in Bangalore, saw the opening of the New Lecture Hall of the Indian Institute of World Culture by the Maharaja of Mysore, (he was also Mysore State's first Governor in Independent India) at 6 North Pubic Square Rd. in the Basavangudi quarter of Bangalore. At that time Mr. Wadia, who welcomed the Maharaja, renamed the Institute so that it now included the word: "World." On November 17th 1957 Theosophy Hall in Bombay was inaugurated at 6.15 p.m. by Mr. Wadia. The auditorium and balcony built to accommodate 500 was overflowing and people stood in the aisles. Over 700 were counted. ULT associates from all over India and several foreign countries came for the event. The building houses on two floors the main auditorium, above are two more floors devoted to the ULT offices and the Reference Library--(over 120,000 books and pamphlets available ). The Indian P.E.N. has another floor devoted to its offices. The top two floors are apartments for associated who work at the Lodge. 1958 August 11th 1958 was to be the Foundation Day lecture at the IIWC. It was to be given by Mr. Wadia, who had been ill for some days. He had prepared a talk under the title: Our Soul's Need (later reprinted). He began reading it, but his voice grew weaker, and he turned the reading over to Mrs. Wadia, who finished it, while he waited in a chair at the back of the auditorium. A copy of this had been mailed earlier to Bombay, where on the same day at 4.30 p.m. a number of students gathered in the Library to read it. August 20th 1958 early in the pre-dawn of Bangalore, the intimate friends of Mr. Wadia received an emergency call. The time was 2.20 a.m. He knew that he was approaching death and desired to speak to them of the future. He spoke of the changes that the cycles had brought to him. He reviewed some past incidents in his life. His first meeting with the Master in the "Brahma-Vishnu-Siva Cave" in 1907; his vision of HPB early during his stay in Adyar (November 1918), which two events he said had inspired his life. He indicated that there would be changes now, and that responsibility would thenceforth have to be shared among those who had been near to him in the work, and who would survive him. It was not until that evening, that he actually passed away. The time of the death of his body was 7.17 p.m. His friends met immediately after the event and read from the devotional books he loved: the Bhagavad Gita, Voice of the Silence, and Light of Asia. Cremation was the next morning at Chamrajpet, a suburb of Bangalore. Addendum B. P. Wadia - Additional Notes Memorandum from Wane Kell (Extracts from a letter 1992) : "B.P.Wadia was a friend of my parents when I was born (Los Angeles, Dec. 1922). I have lived close to Mr. Wadia, and worked with, and for him, directly and indirectly, until his death in 1958. I hold him in the highest respect, and have studied his life and his works for all these years; also, comparing his writings with those of HPB and WQJ on Theosophy. Here was a man who lived to help others--in the sense that Tom Paine wrote: "His country was the World, and "to do good" was his religion." Common-sense and decency demand that no one person, or cabal dominate others for whatever pretext through coercive means, especially in the T S where Brotherhood is the only object that all members have subscribed to. If one could not tolerate an emergent abuse of principle, the first and only recourse of a "pledged" person is resignation. This can only, after strenuous attempts at reconciliation, be done individually, not as a group. A "group" is not essential for the kind of help and support that the world needs, but there is no reason why any student who is devoted to Masters, to HPB, and to Their Theosophy, cannot start where he is and organize a study center with whatever persons Karma may bring around him. It is all in the will, the motive, and a matter of sincerity, of an inner devotion to HPB, to the Masters, and to Theosophy, and above all, a grand, embracing and all-inclusive love for Humanity as a whole. Mr. Judge, in the expansion of Theosophy in America, after 1886, took advantage of the wave of interest that arose, and which, in many places, he stated was the result of Adept influence felt all over the country by those individuals whose karma made them sensitive to it. Recently a fine biography on the life of HPB, and bearing that title, by Sylvia Cranston has been issued, the first printing sold out in 6 weeks time, with little advertisement. [By November 1993 over 10,000 copies had been sold. Over 1,800 were distributed to University Libraries in the USA. A 6th printing is being made and 1995 will find that a paper back edition is to be issued. French, German, Dutch, Italian, and Russian translations are being arranged for.] Students of Theosophy could take advantage of this. The participation of Theosophical bodies at the Centenary commemora6M3 ion of the Parliament of Religions in Chicago ( Aug/Sept. 1993 ) underlines the significance of Theosophy, now, as it was in 1893. I enclose a "bio-chronology" on Mr. Judge, showing the enormous value of his contribution to the Movement, if you will review the synopsis of Annual Reports he issued as "General Secretary, Amer. Sec. T. S.," included therein, you will see how he caused the work to expand, employing many fine ideas, and the energies of many volunteers. There is early evidence of a type of misunderstanding in T S history in Adyar, that which relates to "authority," to an expectation that individual members and Branches of the T.S. would accept and comply with, in docile conformity and acceptance, to such "orders" as the President, Col. Olcott, PTS might issue from "Adyar." HPB will be found to have been one of the first to protest and resist this authoritarianism. In her article: "A Puzzle from Adyar," (HPB Articles, Vol. II, p 217; U.L.T.) she points to the ethical and personal principles of Theosophical application every member can employ. These she declares are transcendent to any "orders" issued from Adyar, whether by the President, or any other person or body that claimed authority, to direct the activities and thought of the membership. She claimed that the essence all effort as also of Theosophical application, was the self-induced and self-devised decisions made by individual members. It was a putting into effect the ethics of Theosophy based on the independent understanding and choice of each member. This is how Karma operates. This is how all mankind and every being in the Universe progresses: on their own independent decisions at whatever their level of intelligence or consciousness. The first "sin against Brotherhood" openly committed after HPB's death, was Olcott's action in declaring that Mr. Judge and the "American Section T.S." as a whole, had seceded, when, in April 1895, it elected to become an affiliated, but independently administered "T.S. in America." He seems to have forgotten that earlier he had indicated that he had no objection to such an independence. Now, in seeming retaliation for his loss of direct control he refused to consider the further actions of the "T.S.in America," which, had registered its desire to remain in fraternal affiliation with the T.S. Sections, Branches and Fellows in Adyar and elsewhere. He then presented at a General Meeting of the European Section T.S. resolutions (in 1895) excommunicating the membership of the T.S.in A, naming Mr. Judge, its President, and all other members "seceders." The principle of local autonomy had been agreed to years earlier by him. First, Mr. Sinnett insisted since 1883 that the London Lodge of the T.S. should remain entirely independent of his control, to which he agreed. Later, he wrote to Mr. Judge and to HPB that he had no objection to the formation of independent Sections. The implementation of local independence had been arranged by the formation, in turn of the "American Sec6M3 ion," the "British Section," and the "European Section" of the T.S. The reason for the creation of these several "sections" was the rapid expansion of the membership of the T S, and, so as to avoid the delays and the slowness in administrative matters of detail, when those were concentrated in the President's office in Adyar, India - also, because he was frequently absent on tours of duty. Mail was slow and thus detail suffered, as correspondence with Judge and HPB reveals. Certain problems had also arisen in Adyar among the staff there which led to inaccuracy and delays. Legally, it could be treated as a secession of the T.S. outside of America, as a whole, led by its President: Col. Olcott, from its original and legal source and center, which had never changed: in New York. This is a fact in History ! In every case, the imposition of "authoritarian" rule coupled with the failure to apply fair ethical principles in administration has led to ill feelings among members, and a failure in the moral/ethical integrity of those involved became apparent. Both the enforcers and those who accepted enforcement, without insisting that common-sense ethical principles be rigidly upheld, have caused the debasing of the esoteric and the exoteric bodies. Most struggles have revolved around money and power, which True Theosophy has nothing to do with. ... Clear speech on sound principles is the only way that any TS "organization/association/group, etc." can run. The "conference method" is the only one in which a reasonable consensus can be gained. We are long past the era of authoritarianism, or rule by right of royal, or of "apostolic succession," the laying on of hands, etc. All those things open the doors to some form of sectarianism, and generally an abuse of power for personal benefit. Pity the future of those people who follow blindly self-seekers and claimants of various stripes. We need to apply our knowledge of Karma, reincarnation and derive from Theosophy such moral and ethical bases for our decisions as will revolutionize the world in a true sense. Brotherhood in practice will alone do this. Essentially, administration in a truly Theosophical body, ought to be a form of practical, cooperative "anarchy." Local units establish a bond of mutual trust, based on common-sense principles that are universal and impartial. It is a total elimination of any personal or "partisan" interest. If such a situation is not possible, then the eventual spiritual and material failure of any T S organization can be predicted with invariable accuracy. It is for this reason that Mr. Wadia in 1919-20, after finding how Judge had been treated by the conspirators (Olcott, A. Besant, B. Keightley, Olds, Edge, and others ) of 1893-6, on his return to India and Adyar, first protested directly to Mrs. Annie Besant (who privately agreed that he was right. But, she said to him that although Mr. Judge had been unfairly treated she was unwilling at that time to make any further public redress beyond what she had already written in her article "Theosophical Worthies" in 1909 in the Theosophist. If one refers to the book entitled The Theosophical Movement (1875-1925), and 25 years later, an updated edition. covering the period (1875-1950), all the documents issued, and the sequence of events will be found given. There are no mysteries left. Most of what has been written pro- and con- the doings of the individuals involved in the T S can be independently reviewed using documents. It now becomes the responsibility of those who read these statements to verify them for themselves and then to decide how to act individually. One might be led to conclude that when individuals abandon the impersonal application of the philosophy of Theosophy for the sake of an Organization, they get nothing but a seared and dried-up shell. Thereafter, they may be assuming the dangerous Karma of misguiding their contemporaries and misleading millions of people still unborn. A heavy Karma rests on even minor decisions made by any student of Theosophy at a time such as this. If we take it to be true, as the Great Master stated, that the "TS was chosen to be the corner-stone for the future religions of humanity." We are now living hardly 125 years since the repromulgation of Theosophy and therefore are privileged to be involved in this formative, foundational work. We may assume that the tests and the decisions that rest on us are of great magnitude and we should be most careful. Whatever we are, and however we may rate ourselves, it is a Karmic opportunity for us. Loyal adherence to a "power group" is like backing the Church Fathers of the early centuries of Christianity, as they went cutting, paring, twisting, interpolating and adjusting their selections from current, and from ancient scriptures, and the Gospels, to fashion a Credo, and a Church that would serve the needs of black magic to enslave the masses for many centuries into the future, right up to about 300 years ago, when the Reformation began in various centers of Europe. They were so clever that they succeeded in almost entirely concealing their work. In preventing their descendants by taboos, from discovering the traces of their malefactions, they condemned millions of faithful but ignorant adherents to be duped by impossible and absurd explanations, rites, ceremonies and promises which are entirely illogical and certainly not verifiable - the creeds and beliefs (so called rites and sacraments) of the Christian Churches. The publication, in 1896 of the "Third and Revised Edition of the Secret Doctrine," [with over 40,000 alterations from the "Original Edition" of 1888 - which, needless to say HPB had not authorized or supervised], and the addition to that of an entirely spurious "Third Volume," [ this 3rd Vol. contrary to HPB statements made in The Secret Doctrine, Vols. 1 and 11, gives adequate indication of the seriousness of the disease.] A careful reading of the 2nd Vol. of Isis Unveiled will show so many parallels, historically, to this creedal trend, that one should not be surprised, but only feel deep sorrow, that so many have failed to abide by their pledged "word of honor." How can anyone who breaks that, be thereafter trusted ? If one desires to write a biographical apercu of Mr. Wadia' life and work, with emphasis on his work in the U S and Canada, the Canadian Theosophist for the months of 1919/20 carried the most detailed reports of his lectures. When in America, the American Theosophist did the same. As soon as his resignation from the T S became known, they dropped further mention of him. Continued in Part 5 of 7 ================ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:41:44 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 1 of 7 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980223204144.006ae4fc@mail.eden.com> WAD-A1(wad-f1) B P Wadia was a Theosophist well known in India. In Bangalore, the "silicon valley" of India, an important street was named after him. This is the first time I came across a detailed write up on him. I am sure some here would find it interesting. MKR ===================================== B. P. WADIA - A Life of Service to Mankind by Wane Kell __________________________________ 1881 - 1903 Bahman Pestonji Wadia was born on October 8th 1881. He was the eldest son of Pestonji Cursetji Wadia and his wife Mithabai. The Wadia family were originally from Siganpore, near Surat, some 230 miles north of Bombay. They were famed as shipbuilders, the frigate Trincomalee, renamed "Foudroyant" which they built, is still preserved in Portsmouth harbor. It was not a large family and the four children were Bahman, a younger brother named Jehanghir, and two sisters: Manijeh (married Sir Rustum Masani), and Jerbai who never married. Bahman went to the "New High School" conducted by J. D. Bharda and K. B. Marzban in Bombay and took the matriculation examination, but never entered college. Instead, his father (who had stopped shipbuilding and had started a textile business) arranged for him to have experience in and learn about the textile business as an apprentice in a large British owned textile firm. This relation begun in the year 1900 was short lived, as the young Bahman refused, in the course of business to tell any untruth, and when this had been demanded of him, he protested and resigned. He then joined his father's textile business just four weeks before the latter's sudden death. BPW's father, Pestonji, was highly respected among textile merchants in Bombay. His premature death ( Bahman was only 19 years old ) placed this young, seemingly inexperienced man, in charge of his father's large business. He became responsible for the maintenance of his widowed mother, younger brother and sisters. With the help of a close family friend experienced in textiles, he promptly learned to manage, and prospered in that business. He had already made the acquaintance of Mme. Blavatsky through her writings. An old family friend, J. D. Mahaluxmiwala, a member of the Bombay Theosophical Society, had introduced him as follows: Every day Bahman would travel some 8 miles to work from the family home in Parel (North Bombay) by tram, to the office in the "Fort," in South Bombay. Finding Bahman (hereafter BPW) sincerely interested in philosophy and other serious subjects, Mahaluxmiwala "gave" him a 2 volume set of Mme. H.P. Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine (and a bill for forty rupees.) BPW was then 18. Reading The Secret Doctrine, he said, was like "coming home." H.P.B. opened the doors in this life, he said, to reacquire knowledge gained in past lives. He secured an innate confirmation of his own moral sense. He resolved that as soon as he could, he would devote his life to sharing Theosophy with all whom he met. He then set to work to sell the family business and provide a good income for his mother and the rest of the family. 1904 - 1908 By 1904 BPW had made even a greater success of the textile firm he had inherited, and, then he freed himself from further business engagements. The capital so acquired was carefully invested so as to take care of all his family from then on. He joined the Bombay Lodge of the Theosophical Society in 1903, and Mr. Mahaluxmiwala initiated him into the secrets of editing, and made him sub-editor for the periodicals: The Theosophic Gleaner and Theosophy and New Thought, edited from the Bombay Lodge of the T S. On April 15th 1904 he offered his services to Col. Olcott, the President-Founder of the T.S., and they were accepted. After the death of Col. Olcott, on February 17th 1907, he renewed that offer to Mrs. Annie Besant, who succeeded Olcott in the responsibilities of the Presidency of the T S, and she accepted him. Wadia also offered to come to work at Adyar, near Madras. This was also agreed to. In 1907 BPW mentioned sailing 7 miles out into Bombay harbor to see the Elephanta caves on the island of that name. It was a well known ancient temple, said in Hindu chronology to be over 350,000 years old. It had been excavated from the igneous porphyry rock which covered the island at the time of king Rama. Thus, ages ago, a gigantic stone statue of the Trimurthi: Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva, had been carved out of the original rock of the island and around that a cavern had been chiseled so that a space of about an acre under the stone roof formed the whole monument. The Portuguese who had occupied the island Mumba-devi nearby (now Bombay) had named it Elephanta, because of the two cyclopean stone elephants that decorated the approaches to the cave. He spoke of this to several friends, saying that it was there that he had a "vision," concerning the antiquity and universal value of Theosophy. Also, he met one of the Great Initiates of the Hindu tradition. 1908 - 1919 He left Bombay on February 3rd 1908 for Adyar. There, working for the T S, Mrs. Besant the President, soon made him manager of the Theosophical Publishing House; and later, assistant editor under her, of the daily New India. At the headquarters of the Theosophical Society in Adyar he was recognized to be a powerful and constructive worker. His responsibilities widened to include being the assistant editor of The Theosophist under Mrs. Besant. Under her direction he began to work in the Home Rule Movement, and soon was renowned in the political circles of the day, and among the members and leaders of the Indian National Congress ( this had been earlier started by Mr. A. O. Hume, a retired Secretary to the Government of India, and an early Theosophist of 1880, who was also a pupil of H.P.B. and of the Mahatmas. Later, under Gandhiji, Nehru, and many others, the Indian national Congress served to win political independence for India in 1947. ) BPW knew all the great figures of India in his time, literary, philosophical and political, and was often visited by them when they came to Bombay. Among these were Dr. Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan the first President of Free India, Mrs. Sarojini Naidu, Dr. Bhagwan Das, Pundit Bhawani Shankar. When visiting Bombay, they would often stay with him as guests and friends. Valuing his integrity and the instinctive love the masses had for him, they would, from time to time urge him to return to politics, saying that a person of his worth was much needed, especially after Gandhi's murder. He gently but firmly refused, saying that aspect of his life was over, and that he was working on something far wider and deeper reaching: Theosophy, which he urged them to investigate and learn about. (1936 - 1957) Sadly, few took this advice. His early activities of a political nature, in Madras in the Indian Home Rule Movement, promoted by Mrs. Besant and George Arundale earned for all three of them an internment order from the Government of Madras. Accordingly they were deported from Madras city to Ootacamund ( a "Hill Station," some 300 miles West of Madras city ). There they were interned together from June 16th 1917 ( a kind of house arrest ). The place chosen was named "Gulmarg ("rose-field"), a cottage, built earlier by Col. Olcott on land he had bought in 1888 4 miles away from Ootacamund, in the Nilgiri (Blue Mountains) Hills. It was at an elevation of 7,000 feet and compared to the sizzling temperatures of Madras (100-115) was very cool. This internment lasted till September 7th 1917 The T.S. Presentation of Theosophy Changed: BPW, after some time spent working in Adyar had realized from his study of HPB's writings in The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled, and the many articles found in early issues of The Theosophist, and Lucifer that the T S was no longer promulgating pure H.P.B. Theosophy. He discussed this with Mrs. Besant, Mr. Leadbeater, and with other co-workers at Adyar, who appreciated his fundamental devo6M3 ion to H.P.B. and the Masters' teachings. Many a discussion was held on what could be done to bring the Society out of the dominance of psychism (the 3rd Object). This object held the interest of the greater number of members. Mr. Wadia felt it was also the duty of the T S and its officers to encourage the kind of study and work which the 1st and 2nd Objects was embodied in the Original Impulse of the Movement, as defined in the doctrines promulgated by HPB and the Masters since 1875. Later, conversing with friends, BPW mentioned that he had a vision in Adyar in November 1918 of H.P.B. He said that "vision," and the earlier one in 1907 of the Master at Elephanta had inspired his whole life with the certainty of Their reality, Their existence, and the power and worth of Theosophy as a living and practical philosophy to be used in daily life. The T S, he used to say, had been founded to establish a basis from which practical and philosophical hope and help to all mankind could be extended at the juncture of this cycle, and, to restore to individuals a knowledge of practical idealism. For this reason the Unity of all Beings, the Brotherhood of Man, Karma and Reincarnation were shown to be doctrines which each one could prove to himself. Those had an extreme antiquity in the literature of the Ancients, and they formed the root basis for all religious systems once accrued creedal and dogmatic claims to uniqueness were cut away. The "Eternal Philosophy," Sanatana Dharma, was being restored. Universality, Immortality, Law and Brotherhood were to become the standards for the general membership of the T S to know, understand, and aspire to practically. But the modern membership of those days had quite forgotten those objectives. The marvels of spiritualism and psychism had distracted them. The value of the Theosophical Movement as refigured by Mrs. Besant nd other "leaders" of the T S, had caused these great ideas to be almost totally lost for students of those years. BPW and these friends of HPB looked for the methods that could be used to institute an internal reform, a return to the Original Lines. Then, if this could not be done internally, could it, or would it have to be done from outside? Many plans were formulated, reviewed and revised. These included: 1. The publishing of a magazine where writers from all countries would have entire freedom of expression and where Theosophical principles could be expounded. 2. Since HPB had stated in her article (Why the Vahan ?) that it was the duty of the T.S. to keep in touch with its members, and through this journal of a few pages it was originally done on a free basis; a magazine devoted to pure Theosophy would have to be started, where the older article writings of HPB could be reprinted for modern readers. 3. An Institute of an international cultural type should be started so that the traditions, philosophies, arts and sciences of various parts of the world, and India, could be compared and made available to the general public. 4. For youths who were away from home and studying at local colleges, an inexpensive residential hostel could be established, with discipline that followed the line of the practical ethics of Theosophical philosophy. 5. Every effort was to be made to present to the membership of existing Theosophical Societies with pure Theosophy, in the words of HPB. Study classes were to be a part of this work. 6. HPB's original writings were to be reprinted for use by students and all new-comers. To have a permanent home for this six pronged plan in India, he negotiated the purchase 4 miles out of Ootacamund in the Nilgiri mountains, of an old estate of 100 acres of eucalyptus, fruit orchards and potato fields, on the "Old Mysore Road." It had been named "Brookhampton"--and was renowned for its library, which he also bought. The property was renamed by him : "Gurumandir," (Temple of the Guru). > From: T. L. Crombie, Friend of India, by E. Beswick, pp 2 - 4; Pub.: International Book House Ltd., Bombay.) "Mr. Wadia stated that as time passed and he and his friends tried to bring about some reforms in the TS in Adyar, but the minds and actions of the chief officers and members seemed to become directed more towards psychism and sensationalism. They tried to direct the mind of the leaders of the Society "back to Blavatsky, and her Theosophy, and that of the Masters." It was a continuous gentle pressure, firmly unrelaxed, that was used. In the meantime other events had matured and an alternative opened." 1919 - India's First Labor Union In the course of his political work under Mrs. Besant, BPW became acquainted in 1917 with the plight of the textile workers in the local Madras mills, as some of those who labored there came to him at the offices of New India. He investigated their working conditions and found them to be oppressive and inhumane: extremely long hours with no reasonable rest periods, low pay, and other conditions of duress. Preliminary meetings were held in the fall of 1917, and in the spring of 1918. The first Labor Union, the Madras Textile Workers' Union, was organized on April 27th 1918. Mr. Wadia was asked by the workers to be President and represent them. The building in which the Madras Labor Union is housed in Madras is known as "Wadia House;" it faces "Wadia Park." On the parapet at the top of the two storied building, over the front door, a bust of BPW is installed. On entering the front door one is greeted by a large photograph of BPW as a young man -- as he was when he was President of the Union in 1918. His desk and the stationery he used at work are still carefully preserved there, and shown to visitors with great affection and reverence. The British Parliament was aware of increasing labor unrest in India, but it was unable to understand the nature of the conditions that had brought this about. In 1919 a Commission to investigate this was formed, and it summoned Mr. Wadia, as President of the Madras Textile Workers Union, and others, to come to London, give testimony, and answer questions before that Parliamentary Commission. This Commission was to consider not only the Labor situation, but also various other matters which were to be addressed a year later and embodied in the "Montford Reform Act of 1919." BPW left India on May 8th 1919, sailing in the company of Mrs. Besant, Mr. P.K.Telang and Mr. Jamnadas Dwarkadas, who were going to visit T.S.Lodges in Europe. This trip for him was to be partly political and partly Theosophical. BPW's testimony given to the Parliamentary Commission was well received and listened to with attention. A pamphlet embodying his statements was printed and circulated. A White Paper issued officially by Parliament at that time, includes a transcript of his cross-examination and answers. BPW's visit to England and his well known capacities as a writer and speaker resulted in his being invited to visit and speak at a number of the T S branches in England and on the European Continent. At this time, Indian Government appointed him a delegate to attend the First International Labor Conference under the League of Nations to be held at Washington D.C., during November-December 1919. After finishing his tour of the European Lodges he sailed in autumn for New York. His position was as a technical advisor to the India Delegation. Having discharged his responsibilities in Washington, he was asked to tour American and Canadian Branches of the T S, lecturing on The Secret Doctrine, on H.P.Blavatsky and her message, and on the need for every FTS, as an individual, to acquire for himself knowledge, and then study and apply Theosophy individually. When in Washington D.C. he met Eugene Debbs to with him, he visited the tomb of Abraham Lincoln, one of his heroes, and laid a formal wreath upon it. His itinerary included a trip to California. In Los Angeles he stayed at the Krotona T S in Hollywood. The T S in America was then undergoing some difficulties in connection with the establishing of Krotona as a headquarters instead of Chicago, and there was a change of Presidents. Mr. Wadia recommended a "Back to Blavatsky" effort, stating that in his opinion the T.S. was no longer following the lines laid down by H.P.B. and was in danger of failing in its mission. He interested himself in the views of a "Towards Democracy League" that had been formed in the T S to restore democracy in its governing. Mr. Rogers, the president of the T S Section in America was disturbed by his support of this movement in the T S and sent a cable of protest to Mrs. Besant on May 21st 1920. At that time Mr. & Mrs. Bailey, who occupied positions of trust ( as respectively, National Secretary, and Editor for the American Section's magazine: American Theosophist ) were arbitrarily removed from office by Mr. Rogers, on the grounds that they were out of harmony with his administration. On July 12th at the National Convention of the American Section T S other changes in the administration were made arbitrarily. Mr. Wadia was thanked for his work on the platform, but the protest against his attitude, demanding freedom from coercion for the members, was endorsed by the Convention pressured by Mr. Rogers, and sent to Mrs. Besant in Adyar where she was the International President for the T S. While in Los Angeles, visiting Krotona, he came upon a Times news paper advertisement of lectures on Theosophical subjects that were sponsored by The United Lodge of Theosophists. Continued in Part 2 of 7 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:44:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: B P Wadia - A biography Part 2 of 7 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980223204424.006ae4fc@mail.eden.com> WAD-A2(wad-f2) Continued from Part 1 of 7 1919 - Meets Members of the United Lodge of Theosophists He paid a visit to hear what the ULT offered, and listened to the talk given. Earlier, his fame had attracted members of the ULT to attend his talks under T S auspices. They appreciated his point of view in regard to HPB, and as a result he held a number of talks with the supporters of the ULT. He then learned of its aims and objectives. He saw they had been reprinting in Theosophy magazine Mme. Blavatsky's articles, and, those of Mr. W.Q.Judge--with whose works he was not familiar. He accepted an appointment to speak from the platform of the ULT on the subject of Mme. Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine. He then read with great attention Mr. Judge's books: The Ocean of Theosophy, The Epitome of Theosophy, Echoes from the Orient. This made him realize what a gap had been created in the minds and knowledge of those in the T S by having no access to Mr. Judge's writings for nearly 25 years; and, in being given a false picture of him as a renegade, who had been expelled for his misdeeds from the T S, along with the majority of the members of the T S in the American Section by Col. Olcott, the President Founder in 1895. He attended more meetings of the ULT, then held at the Metropolitan Building, in downtown Los Angeles. He held long talks with Mr.John Garrigues, Mr. Westcott and Mrs. Grace Clough, and many of the ULT associates who had known and worked with Mr. Robert Crosbie, founder and energizer of the "pure Theosophy" program of the impersonal U.L.T. Mr. Wadia said he was thrilled to read the Declaration of The United Lodge of Theosophists, and to realize that a group of students already existed, who had banded together, without any political or official structure, on the basis of a practical application of HPB's Theosophy. He found that the principles of brotherly work and unity had survived, and those were being applied practically and impersonally. All ideas of "successorship," of "leadership," of "politics" and "personal" authority had been excluded from this association. It now remained to see, he said, whether an agreement with the present T.S. "leaders," Mrs. Besant in particular, could be arranged to implement a similar program that would bring about an internal adjustment, and would return the T S to the Original Lines, and Objects, and to the Original Program of the Masters. It was November 1919 in Los Angeles. Mr. Crosbie had died only five months earlier: June 25th 1919. His loss, BPW observed, seemed to have left some feeling of despondency among the workers at the ULT. Mr. Wadia dissuaded them from this. He affirmed his belief in the need for the ULT, and the practical application of those principles its Declaration stood for. Mr. Crosbie, speaking just before his death to his friends who felt this despondency said: "they would not have too long to wait" for some help to arrive. >From that discussed and understood between them and BPW, it seemed that this "help" was at hand. Certainly there was a great meeting of minds. They began to plan what ought to be done, in all fairness to Mrs. Besant, to the T S in Adyar and elsewhere, and to the defining of Mr. Wadia's future position and the discharge of his continued responsibilities to all of those before he would be free to join the ULT. He promised those at ULT that if he was not successful in instituting a change and a reform in Adyar, he would return in a short while. His duty required that he continue his tour, complete his work in the T S, and for the Labor Union Congress, then return to India. He would in addition work on what he had found and learned; study Judge and Crosbie; and, when in Adyar, he would fight for the restoration of true Theosophy. He would try to secure from Annie Besant a public reversal of the unfair attitude maintained against Mr. Judge and his work in America, for nearly 25 years. He did try this, as will be seen from Professor A. H. Nethercot's biography of Annie Besant, [ Vol. II, p. 328, The Eight Lives of Annie Besant, Publisher: University of Chicago Press ]; but was unsuccessful in securing from Mrs. Besant a public reversal from her. To him, privately, she admitted that Judge had been wronged, just as earlier, Col. Olcott had admitted that to Laura Holloway, whom he had met in New York shortly before his death, but he did not make this public.] In going through some of the older magazines published in Bombay and Adyar, during the period when he was with Col. Olcott and Mrs. Besant (1906-1921) one will come across a number of statements of support made by BPW for the policies of those in charge of the T.S.: Mrs. Besant, Mr. Leadbeater, Mr. Krishnamurthi, etc... These appear to be at variance with his later words and actions after his resignation from the T.S. As he explained this, they were sincere statements made by him within the framework of his knowledge at that time. BPW knew Mr. Judge, one of the original founders, was no longer well known among most of the membership of the T.S., or in India since 1895. He, along with HPB and Col. Olcott had remained faithful to the Masters' Cause. BPW saw that his writing formed a bridge between HPB, who provided the metaphysical base and Judge offered the practical applications. He was distressed that such an important and valuable asset to the T.S. had been lost and a memory of its existence had been buried and obliterated so far as the membership was then concerned. BPW saw in the nature of the work that Mr. Judge did for Theosophy in America, a fiery devotion which had in a few years, brought an enormous increase of public interest in, and respect for, Theosophical principles and doctrines during the ten year period between 1886 and 1896, the last being the year in which Judge died. [ The membership grew from about 350 to over 4,000, and the number of Branches from about 20 to over 400.] It was similar to the flowering of the Theosophical Society in India during the five year period 1879-1884, when, fired by the devotion and energy of Col. Olcott, and HPB. Theosophy had burgeoned and spread over the East to Ceylon, Burma, Japan, Thailand and other Eastern countries. But there was a difference between Judge and Olcott. Col. Olcott was healthy and also became famous in India as a magnetic healer, until warned by the Master to stop. Judge, on the other hand had contracted Chagres fever (back-water fever which attacks the liver) in Columbia or Mexico where he went between 1876 and 1883, as a young man, for some of his New York clients who had mining interests there, and he was frail physically ever afterwards. The lingering disease was known to carry off the person in the course of some 21 years. The last three years of his life were noticeably those of a very sick man. His energy was spent as an organizer and as a writer. the magazine The Path contains most of his extensive writings. 1919 - 1922 BPW attempted during over two years (1920-21) to bring a change in the attitude of the "leaders" of the T S at Adyar and elsewhere. He kept pointing to the true Lines that were indicated in the Theosophy of HPB, and the S D. In this effort he worked with Annie Besant, and other leaders of the Theosophical Society in Adyar, trying to secure their understanding of the wrong that had been done to Mr. Judge and to the whole of the Theosophical Society in America, as well as to members everywhere within the T S, from 1895 onward. BPW determined to find out if the breach could be repaired, and if the unity of the Theosophical Movement could be restored by Mrs. Besant, joining with him, and others, to mend the misunderstandings that had caused the unbrotherly break of 1895. After several heart to heart conversations in 1920-21 with Mrs. Besant, BPW found that while she admitted to him in private that what had been done against Mr. Judge and the "Theosophical Society in America," 25 years back, was wrong, she refused to make a public retraction and restore Judge's fair name in T S Theosophical circles. 1920 In July 1920 BPW, as a delegate from India, attended the Convention of the American Section T.S. in Chicago. By this time, he had become a member of the American Section of the T.S. A question arose about the authority of the officers, particularly the President in the administration of the American Section T S, Resolutions were framed to permit the President of that American Section's Administration to expel members who criticized its officers for "autocratic and underhand methods of administration." Mr. Wadia opposed such resolutions as that would muzzle free speech. The President of the American Section T S, at that time desired to apply this to suppress and quell criticism of certain actions he had taken without securing the prior approval of the Council of the American Section. [ see O. E. Library Critic issues 1919-23 for more details about the forcing on the T S membership in America of mandatory membership in the Liberal [Old] Catholic Church, the Star of the East, and Co-Masonry.] Mr. Wadia's opposition to the high-handed methods of the President of the American Section T S, galvanized a great measure of opposition to this objective, and the thwarted President then wrote to Mrs. Besant (as the International President T.S., at Adyar) complaining of Mr. Wadia's "interference" in local affairs. Mrs. Besant replied, upholding Mr. Wadia's stand on principles, (since he was a member of the American Section also) while deploring his possible "interference." She said that her acquaintance with Mr. Wadia for many years had confirmed her entire trust and respect for him. But, she added, they did not always agree. From Adyar on Sept. 20th 1920, Mr. Wadia wrote a letter that answered points made publicly by the president in the American Section, and sent copies of it to members of the T S Section in America. He wrote, in summary : Criticism should never be grounds for expulsion of any member. Majority vote should rule all matters of administration. While in America and staying at Krotona, Hollywood (now moved to Ojai), he encountered evidence of wrong principles and wrong methods apparently used by certain administrators in the American Section. He was then slandered by those officials, and a complaint had been lodged in Adyar with Mrs. Besant, International President T S. Mr. Wadia proceeded to expose publicly what was going on. He stood for the principles of clear speech and an exposure of such matters, as it concerned all members who were free to vote. He returned in 1920 to Europe, and traveled to Paris to attend the World Congress of the T S there. Thereafter he was asked to visit a number of countries where T S Branches were active; he visited Belgium, lecturing in Brussels, Antwerp, Ghent, Ostend, Liege, Charleroi, Marianwelz. 19 lectures delivered, two at the Universite Internationale. He was enthusiastically received and listened to by those engaged in labor reform and by their members, the workers themselves. He received, then, an invitation to attend the First World Congress of Psychical Research, to meet in Copenhagen; and another from the Third World Brotherhood Congress, to meet in Prague. As he was not able to go to either of them he sent papers, which were received and read with satisfaction. Following Belgium, he visited Holland, where he worked for 2 weeks, 56 meetings were held. Copenhagen was next visited where 4 talks were given to various groups. Then, on to Sweden, Malmo, Goteborg, Gefle, Stockholm; then to Oslo, Norway, where the Annual Convention of the Norwegian T S was held. Next to Helsinki, Finland. A tour which began in Marseilles in the South of France on February 20th ended October 20th 1920 in Finland. He then sailed back to India. 1921 Meanwhile, the Government of India in 1921 appointed Mr. Wadia a member of the Indian Delegation to the Second International Labor Conference under the League of Nations, which was to meet in Geneva, Switzerland, October 25th, 1921 and this was to be continued for a month. This necessitated a second trip to Europe, and In November 1921, after the conference, Mr. Wadia again sailed for America and thereafter he returned to make his final efforts in Adyar--and these being unsuccessful, he resigned in July 1922. July 18th 1922 B.P.Wadia resigned from the Theosophical Society on the 18th of July 1922. He broadcast his reasons for this resignation widely to members of the TS. He also advised them of his joining the U L T because of its impersonal policy, and its one-pointed work focussed on Original Theosophy, as taught by H.P.Blavatsky. He stated there that he would be working thenceforth for Theosophy through the United Lodge of Theosophists, which of all existing Theosophical bodies, was the one that he had found to be closest in ideal and practice to the original program of the Theosophical Society as started by the Masters, with, Mme. Blavatsky as Their Agent, Col. H.S.Olcott as President for Life, and with Mr. W.Q.Judge as Counsel to the Society, and later as General Secretary of the American Section T.S. BPW, stated that he did not "look back," nor did he mention or apologize for what he had written earlier in support of the policies of Mrs. Besant, and others of the leaders of the Theosophical Society in the period when he was a member between 1903 and 1922. That door was closed. He thereafter directed the whole thrust of his energy and work into the United Lodge of Theosophists, which was effectively using methods of work that exemplified the principles outlined in the original program of the Masters. These are embodied in the Declaration of the U L T. Continued in Part 3 of 7 =============================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:53:57 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Finale' Message-ID: <34F24454.99D9DF5A@gate.net> Bart, Thank you for answering the questions put to you. Your being prompt and upfront is appreciated. I am sorry that you killed Christ. I hope you will release the Karma soon. If not, well, good luck. I do not see you as the enemy, nor Wheatonists, nor anyone opposing a view I may have. In earnest, when I see something that rankles, something that is obviously out of syncopation with my interpretation of a higher vibration, I will try to warn others. For several days I have attempted to express my views as clearly as possible. My last post was explicit. We are all in the same boat, we all must take an oar and row. I hold no rancor for you Bart , the Wheatonists (the executives managing Wheaton, read officers and Board of directors), and never the 'White hats, those people toiling to keep the Wheaton campus et. al going. They labor, I have been told under adverse conditions. There is no umbrage taken with a member, or anyone that disagrees with me. In fact, first and last I am just another ignorant atom trying to figure it out. In the end though, my pointy ears tells me that logic probably leads to the door of intuition. My intuition tells me that the first negative story about the Wheatonists may not be true, the seventh story may also be a lie. I am in the low thirties now, the number of sad Wheatonist tales. I believe there is a fire amongst all his smoke. Your reference to the "allocation of resources" is one way to slip the thrust of the question. There have been Native American, African American, Spanish American and Asian American 'organizations' ask to use the facilities of the TSA, to no avail I might add. If the facility is available why can't a member sponsor the use of same. There is much to be discussed on this issue. Your "Poster Child" identification says more of your position than anything I could draw out from you. I am interested in having all men/women form the nucleus of a universal brother/sisterhood... Speaking of your New York lodge viz. a viz the election. it is interesting but afield of my question. To stay on track, I do appreciate your agreeing that once given, the ballot, should not be taken away. That fact smacks of something sinister don't you think? Another point, I'm glad we think alike about growing the Society. The Bing and Rosie Escuedero story is long. It has been documented too many times on this list already. Everyone knows that to use Bing's words he was "brown balled" by the Wheatonists, and unceremoniously told to seek his path elsewhere. This with very little notice and even less financial support. Bart, in the end, conversion is not my issue. How people think and act is a personal decision. I am the last one to invest my energy in any effort to have another "line up" with me. My true reason is, I do not wish to take responsibility for anothers action. What I feel I need to do though is to try and make members aware that all that is presented by the Wheatonists is not factual or positive. Let the members research the issues if they are motivated to do so or leave them be. I do not wish to find fault with the Wheatonists, but, if my service is that of the lowly sweep on the street asking why the emperor has no clothes, thus it will be . I do have a financial investment in the society. I also have a physical investment and to a degree an emotional one as well. I have tried to make the point that I find it necessary to defend the organization that I joined. The open one, not the one with a shadow government. The non-dogmatic one, not the one with a specific way to practice Theosophy handed down by 'official' Wheatonists, you know, those that would be called 'elders'. I am vested in this democratic organization where if I have a question, there is an elected official who will respond quickly and openly to my question. Not a group who pull the rug over their heads and wait for the problem to go away, become stale or die a natural death. Yes Bart I have an investment right here at the TSA and I am not going away ! Finally, I do look forward to working side by side with you to help the Society return to its stated objects and present itself as a non-dogmatic, democratic organization that truly serves the human condition. I am sure that we will find more to agree upon than disagree as we labor in the field of the common good. Your pal, Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 02:25:34 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Bing & Wood Message-ID: In message <3.0.3.32.19980222204445.00a71dfc@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >There is a lot of baggage (much not pretty) to take care of. It is like the >"Prabadha Karma" which each one of us have in our account. > >my 0.02 > >mkr Make that 0.04 Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:45:32 +0100 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1433 Message-ID: "Now we're back to the list again .... ! Alan" Phew - I am all in my sleep-on-train since yesterday I had a circle-run-together-break! It's the result of too much laughing about something the Archbishop of Canterburry said .... Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:50:03 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Finale' Message-ID: <34F3246A.71F1E717@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > Bart, > > Thank you for answering the questions put to you. Your being prompt and > upfront is appreciated. And I'm glad we're finally on polite terms. > I am sorry that you killed Christ. I hope you will release the Karma > soon. If not, well, good luck. I never said I killed Christ; I said I killed Jesus. Of course, many consider them both to be the same person; I have my doubts that either existed. However, whether or not they existed, I have already paid quite a karmic debt for the crime, so I figure I might as well admit to it (and the lesson I have learned from the karm is the wrongness of guilt by association). > Your reference to the "allocation of resources" is one way to slip the > thrust of the question. There have been Native American, African > American, Spanish American and Asian American 'organizations' ask to use > the facilities of the TSA, Note that I did ask if such a thing did occur; given that, I can now give my opinions on the subject. > to no avail I might add. If the facility is > available why can't a member sponsor the use of same. There is much to > be discussed on this issue. Your "Poster Child" identification says more > of your position than anything I could draw out from you. I am > interested in having all men/women form the nucleus of a universal > brother/sisterhood... And there is more than one way to do it. Different human subgroups have evolved different capabilities more strongly (I use subgroups rather than subraces or races, because the qualifying difference seems, at least to me, to be more geographical than genetic). One of the initial purposes of the Theosophical Society was to combine the strengths of two of those subgroups. Note that, not long after the Theosophical Society started, leaps in transportation and communications technology suddenly removed a good chunk of the geographical differences. There was (and still is) the danger that a prevailing group's valuations of their own developed characteristics over those of others could slow or wipe out human advancement in those other areas. If an organization exists to better integrate the characteristics, then, in my opinion, the TS should support it. If the organization exists to separate or destroy those characteristics, the TS, in my opinion, should not support it. And, in general, the TS should concentrate its efforts in areas that cause the aggregation of human evolutionary development. Now, given the original question, there are 3 groups you mention that have "favored nations" status. The ES is easy enough; when it was created, it was clear that it would have use of Lodge facilities. Now, if you wish to argue that the ES today is not the same organziation as that created by HPB, that is a different (but rather interesting) question entirely. The Masons were mentioned by Blavatsky as the only esoteric discipline to which ES members could belong. As the co-Masons have lost the backwards-looking rejection of women, I could certainly see it being put forward as an organization that should be supported by the TS. With the LCC, it is more a matter of traditional cooperation, especially when you consider what the LCC did for the TS in Nazi-controlled areas of WWII. On the other hand, there is a problem with the LCC. While there is reasonable explanation why its clergy is all-male, there is still the fact that the clergy also runs the business matters of the church, effectively cutting off women from the fiscal leadership of the Church. I think that the LCC should consider splitting off the organizational structure from the spiritual structure, much as the Mahatmas did when they split Blavatsky's and Olcott's responsibilities and power. As far as rentals to other organizations go, the TS should use its facilities in the most effective manner to fulfill the 3 objects they can find. The only reason why being a "poster boy" organization could be a criterion for preferential treatment is if doing so would garner publicity to the work of the TS which would make more people aware of it, which would further the work. In New York (with which I am more personally familiar), we base rentals on a number of things. One of which is the personnel here can only do so much, and we don't wish to hire more, unless they can generate enough income to pay for themselves. If an organization can provide, as a volunteer, someone who is known to the Board of Directors and sufifciently trusted to be given keys to the facilities, they will get priority in rentals, as the cost of the rental in terms of human resources goes way down as a result. Most of our rentals are done under that basis, including the rental to the LCC; the only Lodge resources they use are electricity and a time during which the meeting hall is not normally used. I could see in Wheaton similar considerations, where staff members who are also members of renting groups volunteer time over and above what they normally give, to allow the groups to use a minimum amount of facilities. > Speaking of your New York lodge viz. a viz the election. it is > interesting but afield of my question. Except to illustrate that with which I am more familiar. The New York Lodge and Pumpkin Hollow Farm operate largely independently from the National Section, at least on a de facto basis. I have always assumed that it was the same with other Lodges. > To stay on track, I do appreciate > your agreeing that once given, the ballot, should not be taken away. > That fact smacks of something sinister don't you think? Another point, > I'm glad we think alike about growing the Society. I am glad about the points of agreement, as well. When there are disagreements, it tends to be best defining the points of agreement, to determine the exact points of disagreement. As far as the "sinister" aspect, I agree that it is a possibility. As a systems analyst, however, I am trained to look at all possibilities, and, based on my personal knowledge (and therefore prejudices) of the people involved, I don't personally believe that the motive was sinister. In small business, it is a common mistake to, when confronted by big competition, to start cutting back expenses, and, so to speak, "circle the wagons", as opposed to attempting to evolve into a different sort of business that might meet the competition. The problem is that the attempt to evolve might weaken instead of strengthen the business. The problem is that while evolution might not work, enforced stagnation is GUARANTEED not to work, unless the competition dies on its own. What I see in the International TS is an attempt to "circle the wagons" rather than to allow evolution, and I see the vote change as a symptom of that ("America is changing the rules. Well, we have to stop that IMMEDAITELY, because, after all, the TS is in danger, and any change my destroy us!"). And I see the people at Wheaton trying to balance evolution of the Society against the anti-evolutionary attitudes of Adyar. The key would be for Adyar, instead of trying to stop evolution, see if they could lay a path for evolution. > The Bing and Rosie Escuedero story is long. It has been documented too > many times on this list already. But the two conflictiong stories have never been resolved, and nobody has ever come straight out and said that the version I was told was not correct (or even, as I suspect, not complete. If it is incomplete, I would like to know the rest of the story). > death. Yes Bart I have an investment right here at the TSA and I am not > going away ! That, as I believe I stated before, sounds perfectly legitimate to me. > Finally, I do look forward to working side by side with you to help the > Society return to its stated objects and present itself as a > non-dogmatic, democratic organization that truly serves the human > condition. I am sure that we will find more to agree upon than disagree > as we labor in the field of the common good. You have no idea how much better I feel (no sarcasm) reading this. I was truly upset at the first message you sent in this thread, but in the long run, I think that it did good. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:54:48 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Circling the wagons Message-ID: <199802242054.PAA06398@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Bart's observation about Adyar "circling the wagons" is quite in line with my own experience. The atmosphere, from moment one during my visit, was one of defensiveness, stagnation, mistrust of members, perception of everything as a potential threat and nothing as a potential opportunity. Other member/authors who've been there say the same. My experience with the ARE headquarters was 180 degrees different. Now, whether our current president and board are trying to steer a less reactionary course than Adyar's is open to debate. I can't say I have seen any evidence of that, alas. Cheers, PJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:58:48 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Providing anonymity in e-mail Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980225065848.00a90fdc@mail.eden.com> Here is a very interesting product. May be many organizations can use it. mkr ============================= All too often, employees can be placed in situations whereby they want to address their concerns with their company or co-workers, but they remain silent due to a fear of what might happen to them. Unfortunately, keeping quiet just won't resolve the problem, so everyone loses out - including the employer. Thankfully, a new service is now online that's geared specifically to these types of situations, and the pricing just can't be beat. StrictlyConfidential.com is designed to function either as a stand-alone service, or as part of an existing internal employee communication program. The service allows employees to speak their minds with absolute confidence by sending "Guaranteed Untraceable" email messages to their company's mailbox on the StrictlyConfidential.com server. StrictlyConfidential.com takes email sent to it by the employees of client companies and "sterilizes" it so that it is impossible to trace the sender. After undergoing a 5-step security procedure, the message is compiled and forwarded to a designated contact within the company - all without any employee of the service ever reading the document. The cost ... a mere $360(CDN) per year - regardless of the company size or employee usage. Berkana Communication, Web: http://www.strictlyconfidential.com/ Email: mailto:scc@berkana.cana.ca Phone: 416-424-1953 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:02:27 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: PC/Internet/e-mail etc. Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980225070227.00a90fdc@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting news item. mkr ====================== __________How the Web Was Won____________________ HOW THE WEB IS CHANGING YOUR FAMILY http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adt0225ww/www.anchordesk.com/story/story_1806.html More than half of all American households now own a PC. More and more families are finding their way to the Web. How is this affecting family life? Web maven Annette Hamilton reveals there is good news (about email). And bad news (about books). From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:09:27 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: How PC & Internet is affecting families Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980225070927.00a90fdc@mail.eden.com> Around the world, technology is reformatting family life. According to a new FamilyPC reader survey, 83% of families polled were online in 1997 -- up from 50% the previous year. The majority (59%) connect to the Web at 28.8 K. They log on roughly 35 times a month and spend an average of 16 hours online per week. You have probably heard about some of the beneficial results. Increased connectedness, for instance. Email has replaced traditional letter-writing and expensive long-distance telephone calls for many families. The Washington Post reports 77% of the 9 million students in college use email regularly. FIND/SVP research shows 36% of parents believe using technology will increase employment prospects for their children. And the kill-your-television crowd will be heartened that 57% of families surveyed by FamilyPC say Internet use has reduced TV viewing. But what about the downside? According to a new study by Ekos Research, 49% of Canadians complain computers have negatively impacted family life. Some of the findings from the FamilyPC Families on the Internet Index (click for full story) may help explain why: 13% of families say Internet use has reduced reading books 68% were concerned with kids' access to pornography on the Web 67% worry about their kids being marketed to online Late last year, the number of American households with PCs finally surpassed the number of households without. Click for full story. The number of Internet users continues to rise. And the impact of technology on families is going to increase exponentially. For better (Hey! Kids may finally write their grandmother, via email!). And for worse (kids may forget how to write any other way). How has technology impacted your family life? In good ways? Or bad? Use the TalkBack button at the bottom of this page to tell me what you think. I'll post some of your best responses beneath this column. Excerpt from ZD net article. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:03:03 -0700 From: Mary Anne Morel Subject: Re: Circling the Wagons Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19980130140845.19a74b12@cadvision.com> Re K. Paul Johnson's comments on Adyar's apparent air of defensiveness, it seems as though not much has changed since I was there seven years ago. A six-week stay was long enough to notice strong undercurrents of dissatisfaction among workers, TS visiting members, and even some administrative staff. There were rumors then among the visiting members that TS might move the motherhouse from Adyar to the US or England; perhaps that had something to do with the "circle the wagons" syndrome in 1991, but what about in 1998? Adyar is so beautiful and peaceful that it deserves to be a Mecca for TS. Surely there is no need for distrust and jockeying for position in a philosophical organization that celebrates the oneness of everything. Mary Anne Morel >Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:54:48 -0500 (EST) >From: "K. Paul Johnson" >To: theos-l@vnet.net >Subject: Circling the wagons >Message-ID: <199802242054.PAA06398@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> > >Bart's observation about Adyar "circling the wagons" is quite in >line with my own experience. The atmosphere, from moment one >during my visit, was one of defensiveness, stagnation, mistrust >of members, perception of everything as a potential threat and >nothing as a potential opportunity. Other member/authors who've >been there say the same. My experience with the ARE headquarters >was 180 degrees different. > >Now, whether our current president and board are trying to steer >a less reactionary course than Adyar's is open to debate. I >can't say I have seen any evidence of that, alas. > >Cheers, >PJ > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:30:44 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Circling the Wagons Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980225213044.00d2fab8@mail.eden.com> I have no idea what is the current situation at Adyar. Many of us who are members of TS in America, has for the last several years seen some of the administrative actions taken by the administration at Olcott which has left much to be desired. Specifically to some of us this relates to how the changes to the bylaws were put through and in once instance how the members who voted disenfranchised themselves -- those who voted could not vote in the elections couple of months later. May be it is time to take a "secret" opinion survey at Olcott about the level of satisfaction among the resident workers. Since many of them may be out of their jobs if they publicly vented their satisfaction level, if truth has to be dug up, it can be done only under 100 anonymous survey. True situation info will help avoid serious problems down in the future. mkr ======================== At 04:17 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >Re K. Paul Johnson's comments on Adyar's apparent air of defensiveness, it >seems as though not much has changed since I was there seven years ago. A >six-week stay was long enough to notice strong undercurrents of >dissatisfaction among workers, TS visiting members, and even some >administrative staff. There were rumors then among the visiting members that >TS might move the motherhouse from Adyar to the US or England; perhaps that >had something to do with the >"circle the wagons" syndrome in 1991, but what about in 1998? Adyar is so >beautiful and peaceful that it deserves to be a Mecca for TS. Surely there >is no need for distrust and jockeying for position in a philosophical >organization that celebrates the oneness of everything. > >Mary Anne Morel > >>Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:54:48 -0500 (EST) >>From: "K. Paul Johnson" >>To: theos-l@vnet.net >>Subject: Circling the wagons >>Message-ID: <199802242054.PAA06398@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> >> >>Bart's observation about Adyar "circling the wagons" is quite in >>line with my own experience. The atmosphere, from moment one >>during my visit, was one of defensiveness, stagnation, mistrust >>of members, perception of everything as a potential threat and >>nothing as a potential opportunity. Other member/authors who've >>been there say the same. My experience with the ARE headquarters >>was 180 degrees different. >> >>Now, whether our current president and board are trying to steer >>a less reactionary course than Adyar's is open to debate. I >>can't say I have seen any evidence of that, alas. >> >>Cheers, >>PJ > >> > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:26:11 -0800 From: gidondel@usa.net Subject: Re: Theos-World Miami Message-ID: <34F49A83.59C9@usa.net> Thoa Tran wrote: > > After reviewing various posts, I came to the > conclusion that one side would settle for no less than the fall of the > people in power, and that the other side either would not negotiate with > hostility or could not be bothered. It is the same situation on Chiapas: The rebels and the goverment, do not want to be seen as pushovers, weak.... I stick to what Dallas said, really: I do not belong to the T.S. But, i believe that the strong effort done by many iluminated pepole like Blavatsky and the following, would be a pity to loose in esterile confrontations because of diferents points of view of minor things, or differences on taught. The Theosophical society has a very important duty in the world. they have a special contribution to it, and MUST give the example to the pepole of the world. if we want to change the world, then we have to give the example, being the most fraternal organization ever made, as Blavatsky said: "upasakas united together, as the fingers of the hand, as the cords of the citar" The theosophists must be together, and unite. if not, as Blavatsky said: "the master breaks the cord that doesn't sound well, and takes it of of the citar" Maybe i'm too harsh to judge....after all, i am not a member of T.S. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:28:56 -0800 From: gidondel@usa.net Subject: Re: Theos-World Miami Message-ID: <34F49B1C.E79@usa.net> Thoa Tran wrote: > not followed. > > But, hey, let's not worry about this. Let's sit and meditate that the war > with Iraq will not happen. Let's use that mysterious mind power to > influence the prevention of WWIII. It's a whole lot easier to do that. > > Thoa :o) > You're right! let's do what it is supposed to do, not waste time (and bytes) on sterile discussions. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:35:35 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Miami Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980225173535.00b530ac@mail.eden.com> Dear Estrella: Internet is going to help T/theosophists unite in spite of the organizations trying to protect their turfs which they have done for over 100 years and will continue to do for ever. HPB, whereever she is, and the Real Founders and Their Bosses would delight in this bright prospect (however small it is) of T/theosophists uniting together after 100 years of what the organizations were unable to achieve and there is no prospect of the organizations moving in this direction in the future as well. mkr ==================================== At 06:26 PM 2/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >Thoa Tran wrote: >> > > After reviewing various posts, I came to the >> conclusion that one side would settle for no less than the fall of the >> people in power, and that the other side either would not negotiate with >> hostility or could not be bothered. > >It is the same situation on Chiapas: The rebels and the goverment, do >not want to be seen as pushovers, weak.... >I stick to what Dallas said, really: >I do not belong to the T.S. >But, i believe that the strong effort done by many iluminated pepole >like Blavatsky and the following, would be a pity to loose in esterile >confrontations because of diferents points of view of minor things, or >differences on taught. >The Theosophical society has a very important duty in the world. they >have a special contribution to it, and MUST give the example to the >pepole of the world. if we want to change the world, then we have to >give the example, being the most fraternal organization ever made, as >Blavatsky said: "upasakas united together, as the fingers of the hand, >as the cords of the citar" >The theosophists must be together, and unite. if not, as Blavatsky said: >"the master breaks the cord that doesn't sound well, and takes it of of >the citar" >Maybe i'm too harsh to judge....after all, i am not a member of T.S. >Estrella > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:33:57 -0800 From: gidondel@usa.net Subject: again,on auras (just to vary in the subject) Message-ID: <34F4AA65.11CD@usa.net> M K Ramadoss wrote: > We need new ideas of how to use Internet for Theosophy. > > mkr > You are right! As i believe i am one of the youngests here, may i suggest the interesting subject K.Paul Johnson put in Theosophy World (as a matter of fact, the only thing i have read-lack of time) on his personal investigations on Auras. I have also made some investigations on the subject, using a model subject with the hability. i made tests with the individual, and i have got some curious results. the thing i really regret is the expensiveness here in México of the Kirilian camera. Any comments on the subject?? Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:38:47 -0800 From: gidondel@usa.net Subject: Re: Theos-World thoughts about Theosophy, the TS and the ULT Message-ID: <34F4AB87.71A@usa.net> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > I am looking forward to the day all of us -- just ordinary people > interested in theosophy -- getting together and interacting all due to > Internet. > > mkr > I DO TOO!!!! LET'S HAVE A THEOSOPHICAL PARTY!!! Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:58:40 -0800 From: gidondel@usa.net Subject: on that no-no subject Message-ID: <34F4B030.3F05@usa.net> > but I have never seen > any evidence for any kind of "conspiracy" theory in this connection, and Did you see that movie "conspiracy theory"?? I believe that it has some part of right.If Masonry was good, they will all be normal pepole on Theosophical Society deeds.Unfortunately, most of all (I believe 90%-plus percent) are pepole with narrow minds and interests, that neglect the marevolous principles of Theosophy Speccialy the first law of magic: "Thou not will use the siddhis-magic- for ANY low purposes"-it means,nothing besides Atma-vidya-Divine use ONLY of the power. Estrella P.S. Still believe that you Alan are a good person.That's why you quit co-masonry. P.S.S. Besides, most of lodges do not accept women.what kind of organization is that!!?? :p~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:17:29 -0800 From: gidondel@usa.net Subject: Re:Theos-World "borrowed bodies" and "walk-ins" Message-ID: <34F4C2A9.2700@usa.net> > I have trouble with the "borrowed body" concept. It smacks of that New Agey > flap some years ago about "walk-ins", the idea that a higher being can come in > and take over the body already inhabited by some soul. I do too also. they have claim the Saint Germain Master can do that. I'm not sure.my science background avoids believing that. > For some > time now, the walk-in notion has been expropriated by UFO groups where claims > have been made about extraterrestrial "take-overs" of bodies of selected human > beings. AGGGHHHH!!!! INVASION OF THE BODY SNATHCERS!!! Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:48:48 -0800 From: gidondel@usa.net Subject: Re: more on the subject Message-ID: <34F4CA00.11DC@usa.net> Dear Doss (and others) It says (Textualy and resumed by me) New Acropolis: Under a disguise of cultural asociacion, it hides a neonazi organization?? They pretend to be an asociation interested in phylosophical and occult matters.they emblem (logo) used to be a black eagle on a bay crown, with a hammer, a pen and a torch. it was substituted by the initials NA. Its capting members method consisted in putting letters to conferences open to public (Like the gnostics do) in esotheric and phylosophical matters. in them they invite the public to take a course if they are interested, and if they are receptive they are invited to join.and after that comes the real adoctrination on the real principles of the sect. It was founded by Jorge Ángel Livraga Rizzi (JAL), in Argentina,and after that extended to several other countries. in his books, fascist oriented, he believes in instauring a superman regime, talks bad of women, qualifying them as "idiot with skirts" propagated on his book a purity of man philosophy, meanwhile he doped and smoked himself.the nazi salute is obligated in the sect, and he said "dreams with the day when 'the acropolitan eagle displays its wings as the nazi eagle, and the wheels of the brigades of work converts to the nazi cross'. also they are in posession of weapons. a bit before he died, JAL was tried to spain for gun posession. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:42:29 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theos-World Miami Message-ID: In message <3.0.3.32.19980225173535.00b530ac@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >HPB, whereever she is, and the Real Founders and Their Bosses would delight >in this bright prospect (however small it is) of T/theosophists uniting >together after 100 years of what the organizations were unable to achieve >and there is no prospect of the organizations moving in this direction in >the future as well. What organisations may fail to do, individuals can. See below :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:51:18 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Miami Message-ID: <34F4E6B6.1DD9@eden.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <3.0.3.32.19980225173535.00b530ac@mail.eden.com>, > M K Ramadoss writes > >HPB, whereever she is, and the Real Founders and Their Bosses would delight > >in this bright prospect (however small it is) of T/theosophists uniting > >together after 100 years of what the organizations were unable to achieve > >and there is no prospect of the organizations moving in this direction in > >the future as well. > > What organisations may fail to do, individuals can. > > See below :-) > > Alan > --------- It is already happening because of individuals. It should be sending shock waves to the organizational leaders, if not already. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:43:30 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: Alan: >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >>Alan: >>>Maybe your nose *does* belong ? >> >>the trouble with belonging ... >>is that half the time ... >> >>it's only stinky tuna fish. >> >.. and the other half? Cat food. Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:38:02 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Re: Circling the Wagons Message-ID: <01IU18OESLF08ZGSV6@InfoAve.Net> > From: M K Ramadoss > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Circling the Wagons > Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 4:49 PM > > > May be it is time to take a "secret" opinion survey at Olcott about the > level of satisfaction among the resident workers. Since many of them may be > out of their jobs if they publicly vented their satisfaction level, if truth > has to be dug up, it can be done only under 100 anonymous survey. True > situation info will help avoid serious problems down in the future. good idea. we would have to get the addresses of the Wheaton Staff and send a mailing out. might be alot of work, but a chance to get some honest opinions. peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:28:06 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Re: How PC & Internet is affecting families Message-ID: <01IU1AFX0BI08ZGS34@InfoAve.Net> > From: M K Ramadoss > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: How PC & Internet is affecting families > Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 8:14 AM > > > 13% of families say Internet use has reduced > reading books > 68% were concerned with kids' access to > pornography on the Web > 67% worry about their kids being marketed to > online > That is not bad at all :-) note: Do we have stats on the impact of TV (&VCR's) & Telephones ?? peace - john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:16:04 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: on that no-no subject Message-ID: <34F5CD84.27928872@sprynet.com> gidondel@usa.net wrote: > P.S. Still believe that you Alan are a good person.That's why you quit > co-masonry. > P.S.S. Besides, most of lodges do not accept women.what kind of > organization is that!!?? A) Masonry is not casting spells; it is a form of karma yoga, knowledge through action, or, in the case of Masonry, ritual. Blavatsky herself completed a series of Masonic degrees (whether or not she was actually a Mason is unknown, and a matter of debate). B) The purpose of Masonry is to make good people better. It is impossible to do good unless you know what good is. In order to know good, you need to know how the Universe works. Masonry helps you learn that. C) The "co" in co-Masonry is there specifically BECAUSE they admit women. Masonry has two requirements for entry: One is that you are a good person, and the other is that you believe in a Supreme Being. Those specifically excluded from Masonry are those who could not be expected to take an oath to a Supreme Being with sufficient gravity. Unfortunately, when the Grand Lodge of England rules got codified, women were considered by society in general not capable of the level of thought required to do so, and they were therefore excluded from Masonry (although there is plentiful evidence that women WERE admitted before GLE was codified). Now we know better, and many expect all Masonic groups to eventually admit women. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:57:53 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Madonna and New Age Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980226205753.006b5f44@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting excerpt. mkr ====================================== SPIRITUAL GIRL New outlook Century-end Jitts, The Quickening, Millennium Madness -- whatever you're calling it -- seems to have claimed its latest victim. Material Girl turns Spiritual Girl, in the new-found spiritual world. Madonna time: 1998. The record release parties are set; new videos are hitting heavy rotation; incense is burning. "The woman who served as a channel for cultural myths about carnal pleasure and worldly accomplishment is trying to do the same for that most abstract and idiosyncratic of human yearnings," writes Ann Powers in Sunday's upcoming NEW YORK TIMES profile. "Stepping into a role that some will surely think is beyond her, Madonna is now manufacturing a fantasy of the soul." Gone are Madonna's whips and chains and erotica, the color this spring on the dance floors is Sanskrit and cabala. And ginger tea after your daily yoga session if you really want to strike the pose. Talk about a remix. Alone in a silent room, face up on the floor in a yoga pose known as the corpse, Madonna crying uncontrollably. Powers writes: "The 39-year-old singer, notorious for being the pre-eminent quick-change artist of her generation, found herself in this odd and vulnerable situation more than once in the two years that led up to the release of her new album RAY OF LIGHT [out Tuesday]. She was not engaging in a kinky sex rite or a new performance style. She was doing what had not come naturally, she says -- confronting herself. "'As my body was opening up and I was going into places that had been locked for so many years, it was releasing emotional things,' she said on a recent afternoon in her Manhattan apartment, 'I'd be lying in sivasana' -- the totally prone corpse pose -- 'and I'd be weeping. Or I'd do a forward bend and tears would come to my eyes. I'd sort of get embarrassed and think, why is this happening to me? But I realized that I was going through a catharsis.'" The woman who once borrowed sources and styles from drag queens and vintage Hollywood, now goes for Greek legends and "The Autobiography of a Yogi." "The weirdest thing is, the more open you are to things, the more you suddenly become aware of people's divine nature," Madonna tells Powers. Next stop heaven. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:30:23 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: The other list Message-ID: <34F6091F.5590EE79@usa.net> > Dear Brother Ramadoss > > I would like to hear from you more than your 0.02. (Like a buck or two) We may all add to it and give Olcott some > really good ideas. > > Martin > Hello Dear Martin, just some days ago you proposed a subject to discuss in theos-span. I haven't get another digest besides mine (theos-span 54) You were the one talking on reviving the list!! Anyway, i send you more info. check the new theos-span!! now it has 2 different subjects!! We spanish talking pepole need to dynamize the list.pepole sometimes are lazy and they just need a little puushover. Estrella P.S. Ramadoss, do you know spanish?? if do, you can may help us dynamize the spanish list. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:58:14 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: Re: Theos-World are politics bad? Message-ID: <34F60FA6.D088F0C@usa.net> Eldon B Tucker wrote: > Arguing over politics is, I think, a waste of our precious time, time > that is much better spent learning and passing on what we can of the > Wisdom Tradition. > -- Eldon > Eldon, i am not sure of that point of yours. If we cannot see the world with the eyes of a Kshattrya, or even the eyes of a Sudhra, we cannot ever,ever, aspire to the Brahman state. Estrella P.S. The majority of the leaders of the world now are in the Kshattrya state. if we do not have the vision to orient that taught to constructive views, and play the ostrich policy on politics, We are generating bad karma for the inaction on a good deed. of course, if it isn't our buisness, Why bother? P.S.S. In the Alcione (Krishnamurti) book "at the feet of the master" We have this statement "If you see a child or an animal beaten, defend it" "If you see somebody breaking the laws of the place you leave, defend the laws" "If someone asks you help, give it, and orient pleasurly,and correct the person kindly. except those cases, practice your work and the silence virtue" Something like that. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:02:25 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Society, internet, etc. Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >I knew underneath all theosophists >is that soft fuzzy feeling. Getting personal, huh? No sex on the internet, huh? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:06:50 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An idea or oops Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >>.. and the other half? > >Cat food. . and cat litter. What goes in must come out. BTW, I have stipulated (seriously) that when my time comes, no flowers should be sent to the funeral (if any) but cans of cat food instead, which will then be donated to the Cats' Protection League in the UK. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:26:28 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: Theos-World are politics bad? Message-ID: > Eldon B Tucker wrote: > > > Arguing over politics is, I think, a waste of our precious time, time > > that is much better spent learning and passing on what we can of the > > Wisdom Tradition. This would be true if one's personal path in a particular life is to sit and study, and then talk to other people who sit and study. But the "preciousness of time" is determined by what one is born to learn, to do, and the service one was born to accomplish. One must be quite careful about taking one's personal dharma and generalizing it into a universal principle. And I might point out that while many students of the "Wisdom Tradition" shun politics and seem to indicate that it is beneath them, that it is a meaningless pursuit, apparently the *Masters* of that tradition do not feel that way, as they give evidence in their writings of a *strong* interest in politics, both of the TS and national and international geopolitics. Politics is the Art of Environment Creation - whether in an organization, or in a nation - that art is what creates the ground upon which growth happens ... it can enormously facilitate the spiritual growth and development of those in (the organization or nation) or it can literally stifle it. You have the *luxury* of studying and teaching the wisdom tradition *because* of the politics of this nation ... try your pursuit in Russia if you think politics is a waste of precious time. For *you* studying and teaching a particular set of writings is apparently what your path is this time around ... and such a thing provides valid service in the larger tapestry of human civilization ... but there are an infinite variety of equally valid, equally *spiritual* paths that have as their expression and their end entirely different pursuits ... and for many of them time spent sitting and studying may seem equally a "waste". But it would seem as though a student of that Wisdom Tradition would be precisely the person that *best* understood the necessity for a wide range of experiences over the course of many lives ... would *best* understand that larger picture. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:57:50 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The other list Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980226205750.00a7bbe0@mail.eden.com> At 08:39 PM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Dear Brother Ramadoss >> >> I would like to hear from you more than your 0.02. (Like a buck or two) >We may all add to it and give Olcott some >> really good ideas. >> >> Martin >> > >Hello Dear Martin, just some days ago you proposed a subject to discuss >in theos-span. I haven't get another digest besides mine (theos-span 54) >You were the one talking on reviving the list!! >Anyway, i send you more info. check the new theos-span!! now it has 2 >different subjects!! >We spanish talking pepole need to dynamize the list.pepole sometimes are >lazy and they just need a little puushover. >Estrella >P.S. Ramadoss, do you know spanish?? if do, you can may help us dynamize >the spanish list. > Sorry, I do not know Spanish. How I wish I know Spanish. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:11:17 -0500 (EST) From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1445 Message-ID: <199802271411.JAA13438@vlinsvr.vsla.edu> Estimada Estrella, Piensa ir a Madrid y Sevilla el fin de Marzo, y me gustaria leer theos-span para practicar mi espanol. Pero no se como encontrarlo. Puede decirme? Muchas gracias, Pablo From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:20:21 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An idea or oops Message-ID: >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >>>.. and the other half? >> >>Cat food. > >. and cat litter. What goes in must come out. BTW, I have stipulated >(seriously) that when my time comes, no flowers should be sent to the >funeral (if any) but cans of cat food instead, which will then be donated >to the Cats' Protection League in the UK. > >Alan Postage could become very expensive if one sends cans of cat food from the U.S. to the UK, probably money would be better for those overseas. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:20:45 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Society, internet, etc. Message-ID: Alan: >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >>I knew underneath all theosophists >>is that soft fuzzy feeling. > >Getting personal, huh? No sex on the internet, huh? No, no, I meant flannel underwear! No good theosophists should go without nice, warm, soft, fuzzy flannel underwear! Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:00:03 -0800 From: Estrella Subject: Re:Madonna and New Age Message-ID: <34F71B43.1291@usa.net> > Here is an interesting excerpt. > > mkr I hope is not only a posing attitude, like many new ageys. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 01:43:33 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Society, internet, etc. Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >Alan: >>In message , Thoa >>Tran writes >>>I knew underneath all theosophists >>>is that soft fuzzy feeling. >> >>Getting personal, huh? No sex on the internet, huh? > >No, no, I meant flannel underwear! No good theosophists should go without >nice, warm, soft, fuzzy flannel underwear! According to Leadbeater, it should be silk (especially for male clergy). > Nothing odd about *him* .... Alan :-\ --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:06:00 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: WELCOME Message-ID: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL welcomes Terra B Celeste (Utah) Personal e-mail welcomes to: tcmaya@juno.com Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:25:07 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Newsreader Service Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980227162507.00a75130@mail.eden.com> Press Release Deja News Introduces Free, Web-based Usenet Newsreader New "My Deja News" Service Makes 50,000+ Internet Discussion Forums Accessible to All Web Users AUSTIN, TX (January 27, 1998) - Deja News, Inc. 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Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:35:38 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The March THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The March issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "The Prize Goes Unclaimed" by Eldon Tucker "Dark Brothers" by Jerry Schueler "Wonderful Sharing" by Thoa Tran "The Black Brotherhood and Magicians" by Liesel F. Deutsch "Theosophy and Ethics" by Professor G. N. Chakravarti "Dark Brotherhood" by Paul Johnson "Is There an Evil Brotherhood?" by Eldon Tucker "Spiritual Gifts and Their Attainment" by A. Trevor Barker "Neophytes in Popular Film?" by Pam Giese "Apollonius of Tyana" THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:47:24 +1100 From: Dieter Dambiec Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1445 Message-ID: <01BD44AF.8010EB80.d.dambiec@student.canberra.edu> On Friday, February 27, 1998 5:49 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] wrote: > P.S. The majority of the leaders of the world now are in the Kshattrya > state. > I would disagree and say most countries, but not all are in the Vaeshyan era (or capitalist/accumulaor era) In the flow of the social cycle, a class is always dominant. Since originally there had not been any well knit social system, we may call the then stage the workers era. In those days all were laborers and toilers. Then came the era of the valiant, which we may term the era of the warrior or the martial era. This was followed by the intellectual era. Finally came the era of traders and business-people, the commercialist or capitalist era. As a result of the rapacity of the capitalist era, when the warriors and intellectuals were relegated to the level of workers, there came the proletariat revolution. As the workers had neither a strongly built society, nor had enough intelligence, the post-capitalist administration went into the hands of those that had taken over the leadership of the proletariat revolution. These people were brave and courageous, and so it was they that foreshadowed the advent of the martial era for the second time. After the successive order of worker-martial-intellectual-capitalist eras comes revolution, and then again the second cycle of similar successive order begins, culminating in the next revolution. Thus goes the social cycle. -- 'The main characteristic of PROUT-based socioeconomic movements is that they aim to guarantee the comprehensive, multifarious liberation of humanity.' P R Sarkar PROgressive Utilisation Theory: http://www.kaapeli.fi:81/~samps/newren/ People's News Agency is a free news, views, analysis and literature service for the progressive minded. Send email to: majordomo@igc.org subscribe pna-news http://www.geocities.com/~amnews/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/8558/index.html http://home5.inet.tele.dk/karmeshv/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:23:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 1445 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980228142332.00caaf68@mail.eden.com> At 10:22 AM 2/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Friday, February 27, 1998 5:49 PM, theos-l@vnet.net [SMTP:theos-l@vnet.net] >wrote: >> P.S. The majority of the leaders of the world now are in the Kshattrya >> state. >> >I would disagree and say most countries, but not all are in the Vaeshyan era >(or capitalist/accumulaor era) > > > In the flow of the social cycle, a class is always dominant. > > Since originally there had not been any well knit social system, we may > call the then stage the workers era. In those days all were laborers and > toilers. Then came the era of the valiant, which we may term the era of the > warrior or the martial era. This was followed by the intellectual era. > Finally came the era of traders and business-people, the commercialist or > capitalist era. As a result of the rapacity of the capitalist era, when the > warriors and intellectuals were relegated to the level of workers, there came >the > proletariat revolution. As the workers had neither a strongly built > society, nor had enough intelligence, the post-capitalist administration > went into the hands of those that had taken over the leadership of the > proletariat revolution. These people were brave and courageous, and so it > was they that foreshadowed the advent of the martial era for the second > time. After the successive order of > worker-martial-intellectual-capitalist eras comes revolution, and then > again the second cycle of similar successive order begins, culminating in > the next revolution. Thus goes the social cycle. > >-- >'The main characteristic of PROUT-based socioeconomic movements >is that they aim to guarantee the comprehensive, multifarious >liberation of humanity.' P R Sarkar >PROgressive Utilisation Theory: >http://www.kaapeli.fi:81/~samps/newren/ >People's News Agency >is a free news, views, analysis and literature >service for the progressive minded. >Send email to: majordomo@igc.org subscribe pna-news >http://www.geocities.com/~amnews/ >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/8558/index.html >http://home5.inet.tele.dk/karmeshv/ > I am curious about P R Sarkar. Is he the one who launched the Ananda Marga, which ran into legal problems in India as well as in several countries? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:35:38 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The March THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: The March issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "The Prize Goes Unclaimed" by Eldon Tucker "Dark Brothers" by Jerry Schueler "Wonderful Sharing" by Thoa Tran "The Black Brotherhood and Magicians" by Liesel F. Deutsch "Theosophy and Ethics" by Professor G. N. Chakravarti "Dark Brotherhood" by Paul Johnson "Is There an Evil Brotherhood?" by Eldon Tucker "Spiritual Gifts and Their Attainment" by A. Trevor Barker "Neophytes in Popular Film?" by Pam Giese "Apollonius of Tyana" THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com.