From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 13:53:49 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: "High Country Theosophist" is Now Online Message-ID: <199801022200.QAA28950@proteus.imagiware.com> I've been asked to pass on the following announcement of another theosophical magazine going online on the Internet. -- Eldon ---------------- HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST NOW ONLINE The HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is now available on the Internet. Information on it's online version and how to subscribe is in the new-subscribers message, which follows. ---- This mailing list is associated with the Internet version of THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST. THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, begun in 1986, is an INDEPENDENT journal, has as editorial objectives; (1) To serve the greater Theosophical Movement as a forum for the free interchange of ideas and commentary in the pursuit of Truth and to facilitate various projects in furtherance of Theosophical principles. (2) To present articles and essays consistent with source theosophy, otherwise known as the Ancient Wisdom as given by The Masters and H.P. Blavatsky, and other theosophical writers consistent with this tradition. (3) To examine contemporary ethical, religious, metaphysical, scientific and philosophical issues from the viewpoint of the source theosophical teachings. (4) To impartially examine significant events and issues in the history of the theosophical movement which have affected and shaped its present-day realities. The following guidelines and ethical standards apply to the content of the HCT: Statements and opinions appearing in signed articles and readers' responses, are those of the authors and are not necessarily shared by the HCT editors. We exercise restraint in editing letters and articles for publication but generally draw the line on personal attack and on material that is counter productive or irrelevant to our editorial objectives. However, we believe that the controversy aroused by what we do print is of value in the quest for Truth." We believe that the blanket assumption of "copyright status" for all source material, unless specifically stated otherwise, is unreasonable and a hindrance to the dissemination of theosophy. We do, as a matter of practice, acknowledge the source of reprinted material, both for the reader's benefit and the honor of the author. While we deplore the implied ownership of ideas, we do abide by the constraints of articles bearing a specific copyright notice. (Write to "high@theosophy.com" to subscribe to the magazine.) This list is unmoderated. Anyone can subscribe or unsubscribe. This will allow for an open discussion of the topics presented in the magazine. From this list may also arise ideas for future articles, generated out of the discussion. Significant comments are encouraged, but trivial comments like "I liked that" or "Huh" should be sent directly to the author, and not posted. NOTE: Monthly issues of the HCT are in "Portable Document File" (PDF) format and are readable with Adobe Acrobat. A free copy of Acrobat is obtainable at the Adobe www site http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html There are four issues online so far. ---- The October 1997 issue (85,741 bytes) is at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9710.pdf ---- The November 1997 issue (293,254 bytes) is at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9711.pdf ---- The December 1997 issue (75,528 bytes) is at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9712.pdf ---- And the January 1998 issue (431,201 bytes) is at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9801.pdf From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:53:35 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1365 Message-ID: <34A8A878.42C9@withoutwalls.com> > Keith Price wrote: > I think all the experimental, non-representational art that > makes news has to be stranger and stanger, a kind of Andy Warhol joke at the > audience, not with it. Maybe some of it. > I think there is a lot of interesting art that addresses spiritual issues > around. I think the QUEST magazine makes a valuable forum for art that > opens into a higher world of bliss and beauty. Really? QUEST magazine? > Of course, not all modern > art is bad, but we are subjected to such ugliness sometimes and made to feel > like Philistines or bumkins if we don't appreciate it. Snobs, the whole lot of them, I say. Notions of beauty are very different nowadays than they have been in the past. > I am thinking about > a lot over scale art in front of our buildings in Houston. They are > psuedo-Calder-Miro-ish papier mache atrocities on a grand scale. I didn't > want to search it for meaning. It was repulsive. The neo-classical and > neo-gothic office towers gave me a since of peace and serenity. Of course, > art is THE SHOCK OF THE NEW, but I for one am a little burned out. Giving a sense of peace and serenity aren't always the intention of artists. There's never a lack of debate whenever tax dollars are spent on public art. Thank God, we're free to scream about it if we hate it. Sorry you're so burnt. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:57:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1365 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971230085700.00697390@mail.eden.com> At 02:55 AM 12/30/1997 -0500, Mark Kusek wrote: >> Keith Price wrote: > >> I think there is a lot of interesting art that addresses spiritual issues >> around. I think the QUEST magazine makes a valuable forum for art that >> opens into a higher world of bliss and beauty. > Mark Wrote: >Really? QUEST magazine? Good question, Mark. May be it is time to look into this question of art opening into higher world. For most of us, (non artists or artistically inclined) who are totally unaware of higher worlds, (sometimes we are not even aware of our physicial world!), all this seems to be smoke and mirrors. Even the mission of Quest is murky and cloudy added to the high Fog (factor), IMHO. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 13:53:40 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: "High Country Theosophist" is Now Online Message-ID: <199801022200.QAA28940@proteus.imagiware.com> I've been asked to pass on the following announcement of another theosophical magazine going online on the Internet. -- Eldon ---------------- HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST NOW ONLINE The HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is now available on the Internet. Information on it's online version and how to subscribe is in the new-subscribers message, which follows. ---- This mailing list is associated with the Internet version of THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST. THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, begun in 1986, is an INDEPENDENT journal, has as editorial objectives; (1) To serve the greater Theosophical Movement as a forum for the free interchange of ideas and commentary in the pursuit of Truth and to facilitate various projects in furtherance of Theosophical principles. (2) To present articles and essays consistent with source theosophy, otherwise known as the Ancient Wisdom as given by The Masters and H.P. Blavatsky, and other theosophical writers consistent with this tradition. (3) To examine contemporary ethical, religious, metaphysical, scientific and philosophical issues from the viewpoint of the source theosophical teachings. (4) To impartially examine significant events and issues in the history of the theosophical movement which have affected and shaped its present-day realities. The following guidelines and ethical standards apply to the content of the HCT: Statements and opinions appearing in signed articles and readers' responses, are those of the authors and are not necessarily shared by the HCT editors. We exercise restraint in editing letters and articles for publication but generally draw the line on personal attack and on material that is counter productive or irrelevant to our editorial objectives. However, we believe that the controversy aroused by what we do print is of value in the quest for Truth." We believe that the blanket assumption of "copyright status" for all source material, unless specifically stated otherwise, is unreasonable and a hindrance to the dissemination of theosophy. We do, as a matter of practice, acknowledge the source of reprinted material, both for the reader's benefit and the honor of the author. While we deplore the implied ownership of ideas, we do abide by the constraints of articles bearing a specific copyright notice. (Write to "high@theosophy.com" to subscribe to the magazine.) This list is unmoderated. Anyone can subscribe or unsubscribe. This will allow for an open discussion of the topics presented in the magazine. From this list may also arise ideas for future articles, generated out of the discussion. Significant comments are encouraged, but trivial comments like "I liked that" or "Huh" should be sent directly to the author, and not posted. NOTE: Monthly issues of the HCT are in "Portable Document File" (PDF) format and are readable with Adobe Acrobat. A free copy of Acrobat is obtainable at the Adobe www site http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html There are four issues online so far. ---- The October 1997 issue (85,741 bytes) is at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9710.pdf ---- The November 1997 issue (293,254 bytes) is at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9711.pdf ---- The December 1997 issue (75,528 bytes) is at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9712.pdf ---- And the January 1998 issue (431,201 bytes) is at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9801.pdf From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 16:13:57 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The January THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: <199801030020.SAA04965@proteus.imagiware.com> The January issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Theosophical Resources Directory" by Wes Amerman "To Gaze on the Truly Grand" by Eldon Tucker "One From the Sacred Science" by Jerome Wheeler "The Authoritarian Idea of the Masters" by Don DeGracia "Computerized 'Secret Doctrine' Nearly Ready" "Seeing Differently" by Pam Giese "Recovery From an Accident" by Keith Price "Free Energy Pouring" by John R Crocker "High Country Theosophist Now Online" "Mindsets," Part I, by Liesel F. Deutsch "A Collection of Images" by Mark Kusek "The New Adepts" by Bart Lidofsky "The Adepts and the Original Teachings" by Eldon Tucker "Practical Theosophy" by Boris de Zirkoff "Third Secret Doctrine Symposium" THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 10:58:44 -0500 From: libidia Subject: Re: HCT Message-ID: <34AE6033.4D30@globalserve.net> Hi Eldon: Ever bought a mutual fund? :) Bet you didn't without checking out the Fund Manager! Can you tell us who is the Editor? Great last issue of Theos-World by the way. Still reading --Annette From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 16:14:08 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The January THEOSOPHY WORLD is Out Message-ID: <199801030020.SAA04979@proteus.imagiware.com> The January issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Theosophical Resources Directory" by Wes Amerman "To Gaze on the Truly Grand" by Eldon Tucker "One From the Sacred Science" by Jerome Wheeler "The Authoritarian Idea of the Masters" by Don DeGracia "Computerized 'Secret Doctrine' Nearly Ready" "Seeing Differently" by Pam Giese "Recovery From an Accident" by Keith Price "Free Energy Pouring" by John R Crocker "High Country Theosophist Now Online" "Mindsets," Part I, by Liesel F. Deutsch "A Collection of Images" by Mark Kusek "The New Adepts" by Bart Lidofsky "The Adepts and the Original Teachings" by Eldon Tucker "Practical Theosophy" by Boris de Zirkoff "Third Secret Doctrine Symposium" THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 10:42:47 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: "High Country Theosophist" is Now Online Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980103104247.00cc2380@mail.eden.com> At 05:37 PM 1/2/1998 -0500, you wrote: > >I've been asked to pass on the following announcement of another >theosophical magazine going online on the Internet. > >-- Eldon > >---------------- > >HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST NOW ONLINE > >The HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is now available on the Internet. Several months ago there were some exchanges on the issue of HCT being made available on Internet. I am very glad to see the editor recognizing the value and power of Internet as a medium of communication and glad to see HCT on line with the technical help of Eldon Tucker. Both need to be congratulated on the good work they are doing for Theosophy. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 15:57:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Cyber Tylenol Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980103155736.00bbcbd8@mail.eden.com> Here is something I just received. mkr ================================= oh man, somebody needs to invent 'Cyber-Tylenol' for newslist philosophy addicts... "Do you have that nagging feeling that everybody is talking about something you cannot possibly discern? That over-amped aura lethargy from trying to *get it* just as hard as you can, waking & sleeping, & still remain totally perplexxed? That cross-wired post-Holiday pain in your head from trying to relate to everybody online AND in real life, from both sides of the head & heartache pain of futility?" upon reflection, I think the innovation of virtual reality as accessed by the personal home computers needs to become more accessible before the time comes for this idea. Until then - REAL Tylenol will have to suffice... But remember, you heard it here first! valerie cooper, copyright January 3, 1998 ;-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:45:04 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: Date of Dramatic Events - SOON! Message-ID: <0b4835250010418UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> A modern day prophet that some take seriously named Dunvalo Mechelzadek writes: last 13,000 years -1998 to 2012 - a fifteen year period. If everything all the prophets have said about that period of time come true, we are about to be truly changed into a new kind of human. Even science agrees that it does appear to be true; the children with the four extra codons turned on in their DNA are the buds of a new human race. So what is it about 1998 to 2012? All the prophets of the past have pointed to this time. The Indigenous People of the World, The Native Americans (The Hopi & the Taos Pueblo), The Hopi - The White Brother/Sister, The Zulu Tribe in Africa believes in the coming change. The Mayan believes by the prophecy of their elders and the "Sixth Sun". The Seventh Sun is coming. The Japanese with the prophecies of "Amaterasu" returning to earth at this time. Nostradamus and his predictions. Edgar Casey and his prophecies - probably he is the most detailed and descriptive in his prophecies. He said there would be a new earth pole in the winter of 1998. Even the United Nations believes that within that period of time the earth will double it's population, and most of the earth will die - a change that the UN is trying to stop. The message of the Flower of Life is that the "change" will happen during the next 15 years. We are ready now, but Life will decide when we will move. We are about to have a special Solar Eclipse. The Solar Eclipse of Feb. 26, 1998. This eclipse will usher in this period of change we have been waiting for. The daytime sky will turn black and the stars and five planets will be visible with the naked eye WITHIN the UMBRA (the shadow of the moon). We will have entered the "Time of Change". One of the best places to experience this eclipse is in the Caribbean. The umbra will enter the Caribbean just after 2 PM local time on Feb. 26th, 1998. The Solar Eclipse of Aug. 11, 1999 will be the last this century. At that moment we will enter the "End of Time" until Dec. 24, 2012. So now that the "Time of Great Change" is here, what do we do? Prepare physically? Physically means finding a place that feels safe and storing food and necessary equipment for up to a two year period. This may or may not be right for you. Understand the situation. First of all, this period of time you would be preparing for is before the change, not after. The idea that we are to prepare and wait, and then after to come out of the shelter and resume life after the change is misleading. Once the change has happened, the next world will not be visible to the old one. We will ascend into a new world on a different wave length where any physical preparation made on earth will be useless there. Just as in death, you cannot bring it with you. So the reason for physical preparation is to give one a safe place to make the transition without violence and struggle - A calm place and time to meditate during the outer changes going on. If, however, you do not feel it is necessary. That is all right also. Spirit is forever. No matter what happens, you will survive. What is truly important here is your state of consciousness during this transition. Your consciousness can overcome any of the physical problems. See and Live the Unity of Life. If you know there is only one God and that all life is intimately connected together, and if you see this unity everywhere, and finally if you live this unity in your everyday life, Mother Earth will protect you and carefully lead you into the next world. This is the great secret of Life and the protection that Mother Nature will provide. How is this achieved? By dropping the old consciousness of Good and Evil, which we must do in order to enter the new higher consciousness. The old consciousness sees itself as being inside a body and everything and everyone else as outside of itself. This way of seeing is an illusion. The Hindus call it "Maya". Hermes of Ancient Greece once said, "As above, so below". This quote has become famous, and is just now being proven by science. The macrocosm and the microcosm reflect each other. In the same way, another quote is important. "As within, so without". The inside and the outside are connected. It is here, where the important work will be lived. To realize that what happens on the inside reflects to the outside - and the other way around. This relationship is effected by our feelings. Fear creates a contracted state of being. Love creates an expanded state of being. When we are in fear and contracted, the outer world controls our inner world. When we are in love and expanded, the inner world controls our outer world. What happens when you lose your job? You go into fear and contraction, and it feels like the whole world is crashing in on you. The more you are in fear, the more difficult it is to find a job. However, when you are in love and expanded, everything seems to naturally go right. People want you to work for them, because they want to be around you. There is a relationship. So the key to interdimensional survival is to remain positive and in love with life even when the outer world may seem hopeless. Know the perfection of Nature. At the same time and equally important, know and see that Great Spirit/Nature is alive and conscious of you. Develop communication within yourself with God. An example of indigenous understanding of this is that of the Kahunas in Hawaii: Their belief in nature as alive and conscious. The final key is to bring this "connection" with Nature into yourself. Let your inner child self emerge and "play" with Life. Marah Baba said it perfectly, "Be happy, don't worry." Bashar said it in another way, "Be happy for no reason." It is your childlike joy that will lead you home. Do you REMEMBER? In Love and Service - Drunvalo ____________________________________________________ Keith: Well, we have another date. I am NOT stocking any vodka and sleeping pills. I want to be wide awake for the solar eclipse with five planet visible. I belive that this is sychronicity and astorology/astronomy at its best in our current lifetime. I remember when the lunar eclipse brought me many visions and insights. I going to try to clear my chackras and eat those beans sprouts in anticipation. Has anybody heard anymore on this? Maybe we could do a group mediation/astral travel thing????!!!! Namaste Keith Price in Houston From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:05:35 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: Cyber Tylenol Message-ID: Ouch! My head hurts!!! When I encounter a post that I cannot comprehend (some due to bad writing), I keep on reading until it looks very simple. Things look difficult until you understand it. What an oxymoron! Thoa :o) >Here is something I just received. > >mkr >================================= > > >oh man, somebody needs to invent 'Cyber-Tylenol' for newslist philosophy >addicts... >"Do you have that nagging feeling that everybody is talking about >something you cannot possibly discern? That over-amped aura lethargy >from trying to *get it* just as hard as you can, waking & sleeping, & >still remain totally perplexxed? That cross-wired post-Holiday pain in >your head from trying to relate to everybody online AND in real life, >from both sides of the head & heartache pain of futility?" >upon reflection, I think the innovation of virtual reality as accessed >by the personal home computers needs to become more accessible before >the time comes for this idea. Until then - REAL Tylenol will have to >suffice... >But remember, you heard it here first! >valerie cooper, copyright January 3, 1998 >;-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:07:49 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: relativity, quantum, and superstring theories Message-ID: Hi, I've been wondering about mysticism in light of the discoveries of relativity, quantum, and superstring theories. I'm also interested in hearing about numerology and geometry. Is the mystical use of numbers and geometry related to contact with higher dimensions? I may be going nowhere, but am very curious. Following is my conversation in theos-world. I thought I would post it to theos-l to widen my possibility of answers. Calling all Kabbalists!!! Thanks, Thoa :o) ************************ >Dear Thoa T.: > >I hope this address is proper . Thoa T...Sounds like some rap musician. I could go for that! >As to non-Euclidean mathematics -- is it not to be applied in questions of >quantum mechanics ? Are there not some serious mathematicians and >electrical engineers presently engaged in developing a super-computer which >will use both of these systems in making for a new development, perhaps >several years off ? String theory might also be implicated in this, or >maybe I did not get the philosophy right. I was actually referring to the theory of relativity, but non-Euclidean mathematics also apply to quantum mechanics. That's another exciting topic I would like to get from a mystical point of view. Regarding the quantum computer, they'll have to solve the problem of quantum interference. It's tantalizing that a computer has to tune in to one of the parallel worlds to solve its problems. I also can't wait to hear about the development of the superstring theory that joins the relativity theory with the quantum theory. The interesting thing about the superstring theory is that it connects the symmetry of subatomic particles to the symmetry of higher dimensions, yet working only in the geometry of the ten and 26 dimensions. As an aside, I wonder whether there are some individuals who are, from birth, especially attuned to the universe. Besides Einstein, there was a mathematician named Srinivasa Ramanujan, who, like Einstein, became somewhat of a failure due to his obsession with mathematical equations only. Again, like Einstein, he was working in a lowly job away from other mathematicians, when he came up with equations never before seen. It was his equations that helped make the superstring theory coherent. I also wonder about the mystics who are able to travel to other dimensions via their minds alone. After all, it is only in this century that science is developing a common idea with the ancient Hindu texts. This is especially true with the theory of relativity connecting space-time and matter-energy, and the quantum theory with its reliance on consciousness affecting the action of subatomic matter. Both theories basically depend on subjectivity, that there is no such thing as objectivity. Using the quantum theory, we can push that even further and realize that subjectivity is ONE consciousness. This reminds me of Krisnamurti declaring that mind is matter. With evidence pointing to the importance of subjectivity, this seems to be true. Those yogis probably were doing incredible feats. Just because the rest of us have not developed our minds to such an extent does not mean that such feats are impossible. Unencumbered by physical mass, they could travel through the universe in light speed, travel back in time, become psychically attuned, etc. As far as dealing with our world of third-dimension, the awareness that we are ONE, that I am you, is enough to change our conduct accordingly. That is why I am in favor of loving our lower selves along with our higher selves. Take the analogy of a lotus growing in the mud. The lotus sprouts from the mud, shoots through the water, and blossomed in the air to radiant beauty. Even as the lotus shines in its beauty, its root is in the mud that nourishes it. For the lotus to deny the mud or have contempt for the mud is like hating the dark womb that it came out of. This loving of our lower self will only result in more compassion and love for others. The effect of love and acceptance is amazing. I'll give you a personal story. When I first learned to break boards with my heel, I ended up with bruises and abrasions on my heel and leg. As it happened, I had to have a physical that week. My doctor is a holistic doctor. As she examined me, I told her that I have bruises from breaking boards. I was waiting for her to tell me that I don't need to do stuff like that, and I was ready to defend it. Surprisingly, she said, "I bet you felt great when you break that board." I told her that it was very empowering. Something in me felt really good and relaxed because of that acceptance. Oh, how I digress. Let's see whether I can answer some of your questions. I'm no scientist, just an avid reader. Thank goodness that some scientists want to share their interests with the rest of us by writing in forms that we can understand. I used to study engineering and some of those books still boggle my little brain. If the schools had taught mysticism in relation to physics, I would have become a physicist instead of an artist. I love art, though. >The implication of universal sensitivity and intermeshing seems to be >important as a concept. Mathematics would then try to analyze either or >both of the following: effect on a unit (How defined ?) and, effect on a >given mass (or a Unity of certain Units), and effect on the WHOLE. > >Seems to me we have several difficult concepts: > >1. What is a "unit ?" what does it do ? where is it located ? A unit was previously thought to be a perfect geometric division of the universe. However, with the superstring theory, it seemed to be a string. This is not so far off when you consider the fact that life is composed of DNA, another string. As it is, the superstring theory contains both the string and Einstein's gravitational geometry. According to this theory, the smallest matter is the harmonies of the vibrating string. The string's constraining movement through space-time is what creates Einstein's geometry. >2. Assuming that there are "hosts" of "units" there will be some that >resemble each other in their properties and others that are different, but >perhaps inter-related in other ways. How to define ? All goes back to that string. It is because of the limitless number of harmonies that there can be an infinite number of possibilities of matter, life, etc. >3. Distance and space are involved - How ? I think you meant space and time. Einstein found interchangeableness between space-time and mass-energy using non-Euclidian mathematics. Again, "c" was the factor that linked the two groups. By using the gravitational law, he was able to see that gravity was the result of the interaction of space-time with mass-energy. Firstly, the closer space is to a mass, the more space curves and compresses. This was proven by observation of the bending of the stars' light beams as they pass by the mass of the sun. Secondly, time slows as it nears mass. In his example, if a twin were to go off into space for a while (in zero gravity) and then come back to earth, he would find that he is older than his twin. >4. Time is a factor, since the constant change of innumerable >relationships >is not only recorded somewhere ( How and where ?) and that would imply some >immovable and permanent recording medium [ Akasa ? ] >as well as beings that were the 'recorders' [ Lipika ? ] -- I am using >designations drawn from THE SECRET DOCTRINE. According to relativity, with the speed of light, we can (although not possible physically, but perhaps mentally) be at every place at the same time. At the speed of light, time stands still. Since it looks like past, present, and future is only an illusion, and consciousness is ONE, is there really a need for a recording medium? It seems to me that this recording medium is one huge memory bank. Since time is an illusion, why is there need for memory? >5. All this against the grand and unknown fabric (if fabric be allowed to >indicate some "substance") of the outskirts of the ABSOLUTE -- ??? Outskirts, girdle, hem, the whole s/he-bangy of the ABSOLUTE. >6. Method of interaction ? Time-space-matter-energy along with little strings. >7. Nature of force or power used in making impact or measuring the effects You can read tons of experimental data and observations supporting relativity and quantum theories. I guess this is what you meant. >8. Purpose of making investigation and record ? Motive - ethics ? Originally, it was to KNOW. Afterwards, all the businessmen take over. Creative people create because they have to, businessmen use the creation to make money. >9. General trend and purpose of Evolution involving units and UNITY. Looks like it's always been there. It's just us in our three-dimesional world to figure it all out. The world is flat when you only see it in your little plot of land. >10. What kind of a power has the "mind" to envisage such questions and ask >them ? Seems to me that there is a POWER which lies/lives behind the >"mind" and directs it as one does a "tool" to apply itself to various >considerations. some start from the point of view of the material universe >and other start from the universal assumptions which we designate >"spiritual." But implicit in those 2 is the 3rd - the mental, and 4th the >moral. Yes, I believe that. As I said, some geniuses seemed so connected to the universe that they have no choice but to do what they need to do. >Now I do not know if this satisfies your questions or opens up the field >for more to come, or even if it is a worthwhile logic ? I would love to hear the mystical version of all this. I am a beginning student of theosophy and would like to learn more. Gee, I didn't even talk about numbers. Anybody has answers to the mystical workings of numbers and geometry in light of recent discoveries? Could the mystical workings of numbers and geometry be related to contact with higher dimensions? > All the best to you, Dallas And you, too, Dallas. Thoa :o) What is matter? Don't mind What is mind? Don't matter -Homer Simpson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:39:20 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Date of Dramatic Events - SOON! Message-ID: <7c2b1f44.34af127a@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-03 21:07:55 EST, you write: >A modern day prophet that some take seriously named Dunvalo Mechelzadek >writes: > > Some people think Princess Died was the incarnation of the World Mother! Some people are idiots! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 11:00:52 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: ts-l Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone know how I could log onto the ts-l list? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 13:33:43 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980104133343.00707070@mail.eden.com> -- THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY -- General List -- ts-l@theosophia.org Moderated discussion list hosted by the T.S. To subscribe, write to olcott@theosophia.org. To unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "unsubscribe" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org. At 02:02 PM 1/4/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >Does anyone know how I could log onto the ts-l list? > >Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:58:58 PST From: "Estela LariosLuna" Subject: More on art (To Thoa) Message-ID: <19980105205859.25839.qmail@hotmail.com> But in classical time art was supposed to introduce the order of the divine realms into eveyday life. If course art can sink to propaganda which is worse. Think of all the socialist realism. Oh, it's unfortunate (?) to live in interesting times the Chinese say. Thoa: HidearThoasolongnoseeyoulotofworkvacationsnelseyouknowetcetc.... (enough of talk,let's get to the point) I recomend you a good group of painters, of the classic socialist USSR, Komar and Melamid....their series of paintings of "socialist realism" is g oing to make you laugh!!1 Excelent painters, you ought to see them!! You'll remember me with them, hehe :P A grand salute to everyone here Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 14:23:35 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: HCT Message-ID: <199801062218.QAA26384@proteus.imagiware.com> Annette: >Hi Eldon: >Ever bought a mutual fund? :) Bet you didn't without checking out the >Fund Manager! >Can you tell us who is the Editor? The editor is Dick Slusser, and he's located in Boulder, Colorado. You can sample without buying ... simply pick up an issue with your web browser. The January 1998 issue, for instance, is at: ftp://ftp.theosophy.com/pub/theosophy/hct/hct9801.pdf >Great last issue of Theos-World by the way. >Still reading Thanks. Write anything good lately? -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:05:28 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Re: More on art (To Thoa) Message-ID: Estrella: >But in classical time art was supposed to >introduce the order of the divine realms into eveyday life. If course >art >can sink to propaganda which is worse. Think of all the socialist >realism. >Oh, it's unfortunate (?) to live in interesting times the Chinese say. > >Thoa: >HidearThoasolongnoseeyoulotofworkvacationsnelseyouknowetcetc.... >(enough of talk,let's get to the point) > >I recomend you a good group of painters, of the classic socialist USSR, >Komar and Melamid....their series of paintings of "socialist realism" is >g oing to make you laugh!!1 >Excelent painters, you ought to see them!! >You'll remember me with them, hehe :P >A grand salute to everyone here >Estrella Hi Estrella (big hug!) :o) Thanks, I will follow your recommendation. I wonder whether I can find them in the local library, or maybe I should look in a museum book store. I once befriended a Cuban artist. He was an exchange student, young and idealistic. He made wooden carvings of famous Cuban patriots. The same people that the U.S. condemned as Communist troublemakers, he and his people revered as lover of their people. That's another reason to not get so caught up in national propaganda. You don't really know what's up until you hear the other side of the story. Their government was very supportive of artists but will take tough measures at any negative portrayals of their leaders. Anyway, he called himself a Cuban carpenter. Cuba was in the middle of a crisis due to oil embargos, etc., and supplies were short. He marveled at the wealth of supplies at a local hardware store and was mesmerized at our supply of art magazines. We said good-bye to him at the airport, his arms heavy from lugging tons of donated art magazines. We never communicated with him again, but our hearts are with him. Have a wonderful year, Estrella. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:48:40 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The Ichat Pager Message-ID: I'm going to give a short program on "Theosophy and the Internet" at Krotona at the end of the month. I've been looking at various programs, and the following is interesting. I'd recommend picking it up (it's free) and using it. If anyone does so, please send me your email id and the id that you sign up with it, and I'll optionally post a list of names and ids so that people can get in touch with each other. The program basically allows contact and interaction between people that are connected to the Internet at the same time. (The id that I've chosen is my name, "eldontucker".) Check it out. -- Eldon ---- You can download it and use if for free. The ichat Pager includes the following features: · Instant messages · Friends Lists · Quick conferences · Drag-and-drop URL and file sending · Real Audio Download the ichat Pager for free at: http://www.ichat.com/pager From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:48:22 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The Ichat Pager Message-ID: I'm going to give a short program on "Theosophy and the Internet" at Krotona at the end of the month. I've been looking at various programs, and the following is interesting. I'd recommend picking it up (it's free) and using it. If anyone does so, please send me your email id and the id that you sign up with it, and I'll optionally post a list of names and ids so that people can get in touch with each other. The program basically allows contact and interaction between people that are connected to the Internet at the same time. (The id that I've chosen is my name, "eldontucker".) Check it out. -- Eldon ---- You can download it and use if for free. The ichat Pager includes the following features: · Instant messages · Friends Lists · Quick conferences · Drag-and-drop URL and file sending · Real Audio Download the ichat Pager for free at: http://www.ichat.com/pager From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 18:17:14 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: A New Book Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980109001714.006ae9e4@mail.eden.com> > Subject: Indian/Indonesian history and Theosophy > From: hermantl@stad.dsl.nl > Date: 1998-01-04 > Message-ID: <883941866.843776011@dejanews.com> Recently, the University Press of the University of Nijmegen published The Politics of Divine Wisdom. Theosophy and labour, national, and women's movements in Indonesia and South Asia, 1875-1947; the Ph. D. thesis by Herman de Tollenaere. ISBN 90 373 0330 7. The Theosophical Society, an occult religious organization, widespread in many countries, had more contacts, and different contacts, with the histories of political movements than one might expect. Read in this book about: - The ideas and history of the Theosophical Society, the inspiration of many 'New Age' movements of today - Who were the Indian Brahmans, Dutch planters, Javanese princes, and politicians, who joined the Theosophical Society? - How support for conscription for Indonesians during World War I brought theosophists into conflict with socialists like Sneevliet and Semaoen - How Indonesians travelled around the world for the first time in 1917 as members of the Indië Weerbaar committee - The first big demonstrations of the twentieth century in Jakarta and Sulawesi - Poems and pictures in political controversies - Theosophical Society president Annie Besant, the most eloquent woman public speaker of her time - The issues between Annie Besant and Gandhi and Nehru in the Indian National Congress - Contacts between India and Indonesia - How both Sukarno and his 1945-1949 opponent, Governor-General Van Mook, grew up in theosophical families - The relationship between theosophists in the Dutch East Indies and Hatta - Women's movements and education in India, Sri Lanka, and Indonesia - and more! The Politics of Divine Wisdom. Theosophy and labour, national, and women's movements in Indonesia and South Asia, 1875-1947 was published at the University Press of the University of Nijmegen, P.O. Box 9102, 6500 HC Nijmegen, The Netherlands. See also http://stad.dsl.nl/~hermantl From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:59:40 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Problems Message-ID: <$9A5UQBMSYt0EwE3@nellie2.demon.co.uk> I have been offline since last Saturday due to storms causing massive phone outages in Cornwall. I will try to catch up on the massive amount of e-mail received (Thursday) ASAP. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:52:43 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: relativity, quantum, and superstring theories Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >It seems to me that this recording >medium is one huge memory bank. Since time is an illusion, why is there >need for memory? Time *may* be an illusion, but it is nothing more than a measurment of movement in *space*. There is no *need* for memory - memory just IS. Memory is, in a sense, Being itself, and I suggest that it is potentially possible for any one of us to *remember* anything that has ever happened (or happens?). Ignatius of Loyala (Founder of the Jesuits) said that there are three powers of the "soul" - memory, understanding, and will. Yep. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:39:12 -0500 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Problems Message-ID: <34B57FC0.185F@dmv.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > I have been offline since last Saturday due to storms causing massive > phone outages in Cornwall. I will try to catch up on the massive amount > of e-mail received (Thursday) ASAP. > > Alan I hope everything is alright. There was a report of a tornado in England on the news. Take care, Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:53:15 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: A historial account of Theosophy in Indonesia & Germany Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108205315.00b6d048@mail.eden.com> Hi I picked up from the url I posted today. Some interesting material. mkr ============================ The limits of liberalism and of Theosophy: colonial Indonesia and the German Weimar republic, 1918-1933 by Herman A.O. de Tollenaere ‘Liberalism' in this essay means a political tendency which arose during the struggle against monarchical absolutism and feudalism, for instance, in the French Revolution. Liberalism's social base was the bourgeoisie: lower on the early nineteenth century social ladder than the nobility, higher than the nascent working class, or the poor peasantry. Later, liberals faced opposition from different directions than they were used to, especially various forms of socialism. So, my concept of liberalism has boundaries on at least two sides. It differs from how the word was often used in czarist Russia, or in the United States, as, roughly, a synonym of ‘Leftist', with a boundary mainly on the Right. In this essay, I aim to explore somewhat the limits of liberalism: boundaries with other tendencies, and limits in potential. This I will do, looking at a time when liberalism's optimist nineteenth century heyday was over: 1918-1933, in a Germany, heading towards the Third Reich, and an Indonesia, heading towards a showdown between colonialism and nationalism. I will not write about political liberalism as an isolated phenomenon. I will write about parallels and links to, and differences with, the religio-philosophical tendency of Theosophy. It faced similar dilemmas in these days. My definition of ‘Theosophy' is the ideas of the Theosophical Society, founded in New York in 1875, and headquartered, since 1882, in Adyar near Madras in India; and ideas which this Society clearly influenced. So, I will not use a wide definition of Theosophy, which might include, for instance, all Sufism in Indonesian Islam. The zenith of Theosophy's influence was in 1916-1929; so, later than the climax of political liberalism. In principle, the Theosophical Society (TS) might attract some liberals, because of its roughly intermediate position in religion, somewhat comparable to theirs' in politics. Quite some liberals were sceptical on the one hand to established religion, linked to conservative political opponents. On the other hand, they opposed atheism, which they saw as linked to socially revolutionary opponents. The TS offered them a way out of established religion, without breaking with religion as such. Rationalist optimist liberals, however, might object to irrational occultism and elitist pessimism on ‘the masses' in Theosophists' views. One may argue that Theosophists had not only a religiously, but also a politically intermediate position. On the one hand, their tenet of Universal Brotherhood of humanity might have linked them strongly to the political left. However, Theosophists often explained brotherhood as implying inequality; as in a family, their model for society as a whole, there were elder, younger, and youngest brothers. In this vein, they defended caste differences in India, class hierarchies in Europe, and doctrines about profound occult cosmic differences between ‘Aryans' and other ‘races'. These theories were closer to the political right. Let us now first look at liberalism, especially in Germany and Indonesia. LIBERALISM: SYMPTOMS OF WEAKENING Liberalism weakened in several ways during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Some of them were: splits, voters and members drifting away to the left, supporters drifting to more right wing parties; and, last, liberal parties themselves giving up their heritage partly or completely and becoming more rightist. This enumeration does not deny that at various times and in various places, strengthening factors might work in the opposite direction. However, to go into this would stretch the limits of this small essay. Let us look at some examples of ways in which liberalism weakened. First, splits. In Germany during the Weimar Republic, liberals were divided into the rightist Deutsche Volkspartei (DVP) and the leftist Deutsche Demokratische Partei (DDP). This was a relic from a split in the nineteenth century, as liberalism became squeezed between imperial authoritarianism and the rising labour movement. In The Netherlands, at the 1918 elections, three major and many minor (e.g., the Economische Bond) liberal factions competed. Later, these regrouped as two medium size parties: the Vrijheidsbond and the Vrijzinnig-Democratische Bond. Jointly, these remained weaker than earlier Dutch liberalism. In the Netherlands Indies, as Indonesia's official name was then, 1918 marked the first meeting of the Volksraad, a council for advising the colonial government. It had far less power than, say, the Reichstag in Germany. Some of the members in this ‘mock parliament' were elected by a limited franchise, some were government appointees. However divided Dutch liberals were in 1918, in the colony they all supported the NIVB, the Nederlandsch-Indische Vrijzinnige Bond. It won most ‘European' seats in the first Volksraad election. Dutch in the Indies were far less likely than Dutch in The Netherlands to support a party linked to a Christian church. This relative weakness of churches also helped the rise of the Theosophical Society in Indonesia. The unity within the NIVB did not last long. Soon, most of its Dutch business supporters left, after the founding of the more right wing PEB, the Politiek-Economische Bond. This party became proportionally much larger than the Dutch Economische Bond, its model. It also overtook the NIVB as major party in the Volksraad. Now, let us look at voters drifting away to the Left. This might move liberal parties Rightward in two ways. First, because the remaining, Right wing, supporters now could become more influential. Second, because the rising Left was seen as more of a threat. One might expect liberals' attraction to ideas like the TS' to increase, as liberals lost their rationalist optimism and became afraid of, for instance, the labour movement; to which, e.g. in England, they lost many of their working class or otherwise leftist voters. In Germany, Eduard Bernstein in the 1870s left the liberal Fortschrittspartei to join the Social Democrats. In Indonesia, the prominent politician Hadji Agoes Salim, formerly a NIVB and Theosophical Society supporter, after 1918 left to join the Indies social democrats. Another factor which weakened liberals, was the rise of parties to their Right attracting part of their support. Already before the First World War, Austrian liberalism had collapsed to the benefit of nationalists and anti-Semites.1) N. Goodrick-Clarke, The occult roots of nazism, Wellingborough, Aquarian Press, 1985, 31, sees the rise of Theosophy in Austria as ‘a refuge from the collapse of liberalism and the emergence of vulgar mass-movements' by ‘the Viennese bourgeoisie'. In Germany, the Deutsche Volkspartei got 51 seats on 7 December 1924 at the Reichstag elections. As the nazi vote rose dramatically, though the total number of deputies went from 493 to 647, the DVP was reduced to two seats in 1933. No other German party had lost that much support. Also from 1924 to 1933, the more leftist liberal Deutsche Staatspartei (the former Deutsche Demokratische Partei; in 1930, it had changed its name, in itself a sign of a rightward shift which did not help) went from 32 to 5 seats. Very few of those lost DVP and DSP votes went to the communists and the Catholic Zentrum, the only non-nazi parties which had won seats since 1924; these gains were minor compared to the NSDAP.2) So, the collapse of the German liberal electorate was a major boon to the nazis. Dutch and Italian fascists owed much of their electorate to collapses in the vote of the Vrijheidsbond in the 1930s, respectively the Liberali in the 20s.3) In the early 1930s, the PEB lost its position as biggest electoral party for ‘Europeans' in Indonesia, especially recent Dutch immigrants (totok), to the Vaderlandsche Club. This second shift to the Right, after the rise of the PEB, brought the totok political focus outside liberalism. While one might call the PEB rightist liberal, the Vaderlandsche Club was far right. It was related to Nationaal Herstel in The Netherlands. Even further right, outside the Volksraad, the Dutch Nationaal Socialistische Beweging also started winning thousands of adherents in the Indies then. It did not participate in elections there. Last, a look at liberals, drifting to the right as parties, rather than as individuals, going over to other parties. In Germany, already in the late nineteenth century, the historian and politician of the National Liberal Party (the predecessor of the DVP), Von Treitschke, coined the infamous slogan 'Die Juden sind unses Unglück' [The Jews are the real cause of our misfortune]. We have already seen how the Deutsche Demokratische Partei in 1930 changed its name, and its views, to the right. This did not keep it alive; quite on the contrary. The prominent Australian politician Deakin played a mayor role in merging his own Liberals with the Conservatives in the early 1900s. He was a lifelong sympathizer with, and sometimes fellow of, the Theosophical Society. THEOSOPHISTS: RELATIONSHIPS TO LIBERALS I have written earlier that one may expect at least some instances of mutual sympathy between theosophists and liberals. This was not always the case, however. For instance, the leading founder of the Theosophical Society, Madame Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, as an aristocrat supporter of czarism considered the ideas of the nineteenth century Left liberal philosopher John Stuart Mill dangerous to Russia.4) Theosophy's intermediate position in religion might especially be attractive in some Spanish-speaking countries. There, it might particularly attract sectors of the political establishment opposed to a strong position of Roman Catholic clericalism. Annie Besant, the international president of the Theosophical Society, described her Society's position as ‘Between the bigotry of Roman Catholic Spain and the wild passions of revolutionary Spain'.5) In Honduras in 1929, the Liberal President Dr Vicente Mejía Colindres showed up at a lecture by TS leader Jinarajadasa. He opposed conservative Catholic clericalists, and suppressed a communist peasant uprising in 1931.6) Theosophy influenced the liberal Mexican president Madero. Like Sukarno, Madero sometimes wrote under the pseudonym Bhima. Bima, and other Mahabharata characters, became well known outside Asia largely via the Theosophical Society. Indonesians had known them already much longer.7) Dutch Baron W.K. van Dedem van Vosbergen (1839-1895), as a liberal MP and minister of colonies in the 1890s, had many connections to Indonesia. After visiting India, he wrote on the TS in De Gids magazine in 1895: 'its aim, religious research, fighting materialism, deserves all sympathy. Regrettably, one took refuge in charlatanism...' Towards the end of the term of the first Volksraad (1918-1921) in Indonesia, five of its 39 members were theosophists. Dirk van Hinloopen Labberton, the General Secretary of the Indies Theosophists, was an active NIVB ‘MP'. He belonged to the Vrijzinnig Democraten in The Netherlands.8) Th. Vreede, Labberton's colleague, both in Theosophical Society and in Volksraad, also became active in this liberal party after going back to The Netherlands. The Indonesian theosophists M. Amir and M. Tabrani were supporters of co-operation with Dutch authorities in the Indonesian national movement. When they came to The Netherlands, they wrote in Liberal papers as well. Theosophy originally had strong, though minority, support in the moderate nationalist organization Boedi Oetomo. During the first Volksraad elections, they co-operated with the NIVB. Soewardi Soerianingrat calls them liberals as well. However, their social base were mainly lower ranking aristocrats and government employees. This differs from the bourgeoisie whom we wrote about in our introduction. So they are not really part of my subject here. Theosophists had an august example for a political choice for liberalism. Annie Besant, after a conflict with Gandhi had made her leave the Indian National Congress, in 1920 became one of the founders of the Indian National Liberal party. It saw itself as the moderate alternative to the National Congress on its Left and diehard colonialism on its Right. Not all theosophists in the Netherlands Indies liked liberalism. In the Indies TS monthly appeared articles, supporting both autocratic monarchy, and dictatorship. J. van der Leeuw was director and major shareholder of the big Van Nelle coffee and tea company, based on plantations in Indonesia. He sometimes lived there, sometimes in The Netherlands (where he became theosophical General Secretary). His Ph.D. thesis on ‘historical idealist' politics was opposed to Marxist historical materialism. In it, he also wrote: 'Liberal party ... doomed to death ... Liberalism brought false freedom.' Instead of liberalism, seeing individuals as atoms, Van der Leeuw advocated a Rightist ‘organic' social philosophy. Workers going on strike were ‘cancer' cells in society, which he saw as a body. Also other theosophists, though sometimes linked to early stages of emancipation movements, often opposed the labour movement, and other radical movements, e.g., for an independent Indonesia. As an organization, the Theosophical Society in Germany was not anywhere as strong as in Indonesia after 1913. It suffered much more from splits, in the 1890s, just before, and during, the First World War. However, Theosophy as a more or less diffuse ideological influence was strong in both Austria and Germany. We still need research on its relationship to German political liberalism. For instance George Mosse and N. Goodrick-Clarke did much research on the links of Theosophy and occult doctrines derived from it, to the German speaking ‘post-liberal' extreme Right. THEORIES OF IDEOLOGICAL CHANGE We may ask: was the bourgeoisie we wrote about in the beginning of this paper, still the same in 1918-1933 as in the nineteenth century? If not, then what impact on its political, philosophical, and religious views might this have? Various authors, like Hobson, Lenin, and Hilferding, pointed out the transition of earlier competitive capitalism to ‘finance' or ‘monopoly' capitalism. There was not only a shift in economics, but also in ideas. In the early twentieth century, Van Ravesteyn, Cornélie Huygens and Pannekoek had a theory that after about 1848 the bourgeoisie, ceasing to be revolutionary, had no more use for materialism, and switched to various idealist philosophies. This Van Ravesteyn saw as the cause of the rise of spiritualism and theosophy.9) In 1992, the historian of ideas J. Herkless confirmed a link between ‘finance capitalism' and ‘neo-idealism' in this period. In the 1930s, the Jewish philosopher Ernst Bloch, who had to flee from Hitler's Germany, saw a link between the rise of fascism, and of occultism and other forms of irrationalism. Then, links between fascist politics and aspects of monopoly capitalist economics were also discussed. What had happened to liberalism? Its supporters had confined it to defence of capitalist private property. Freedom for property may go along well with want of freedom in other respects, and with irrationalism in philosophy. Trade unionists in concentration camps can no longer foment unrest, threatening the rate of profit of, say, IG Farben; or the ‘organism' of society as a whole. So, why, in this perspective, hold on to freedom outside the sphere of ownership, or to rationality? There is no need left, then, to subsidize the election funds of DVP, DDP, or NIVB. LIBERALISM AND THEOSOPHY: DECLINE AND FALL IN THE 1930S; CONCLUSION The post-1929 economic crisis exacerbated long term downward trends in both Liberalism and Theosophy. Membership in the Netherlands Indies Theosophical Society dropped in the early 1930s. As membership shrunk, so did interest in politics. From 1930-1934, as the only theosophist left, P. Fournier sat in the Volksraad as a government-appointed member. He was also chairman of the by now small Nederlandsch-Indische Vrijzinnige Bond. Fournier, though, disappeared from the council. So did the NIVB from the political parties' list.10) As the Vaderlandsche Club grew inside the Volksraad, and the Nationaal Socialistische Beweging outside it, De Jonge, an admirer of fascism, had become the new governor-general of the Netherlands Indies. His hard line policies sharply hurt Indonesian nationalists, and free speech in general. In Germany, soon after Hitler seized power, the liberal political parties became illegal. So did Theosophy, four years later. In the meantime, The Theosophist monthly had published Jinarajadasa's denunciation of persecution of Jews; but also praise by the 1934-1945 President George Arundale of Hitler; and an enthusiastic paranormal description by ‘A non-German theosophist' [G. Hodson?] of the ‘purity' of the Führer's beautiful aura.11) I conclude that both in Germany and in Indonesia, both liberalism and Theosophy ended up as victims of political shifts to the Right. They became victims without really putting up a fight. These movements themselves, and their mainly upper and middle class support, were not completely innocent of these rightward shifts. Notes: 1) See D. van Arkel, Antisemitism in Austria. Leiden, typescript, 1966, passim. 2)See: dtv-Atlas zur Weltgeschichte, München, Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, 1968; 150; 194. 3) See on Dutch elections H.W. von der Dunk, In de schaduw van de depressie. Alphen aan den Rijn, Sijthoff, 1982: 57; 175; 179. A. Mussert, the Dutch Nationaal Socialistische Beweging leader, was an ex-member of the Vrijheidsbond. 4) Herman de Tollenaere, The Politics of Divine Wisdom. Theosophy and labour, national and women's movements in Indonesia and South Asia, 1875-1947. Nijmegen: Uitgeverij Katholieke Universiteit, 1996; 371. 5) ‘On the Watch-Tower', The Theosophist, Nov. 1920, 107. 6) Raul d'Eça. Latin American History. N. Y., Barnes and Noble, 1963; 193. C. Jinarajadasa, ‘A year's travel in Latin America', The Theosophist, May 1930, 393f. 7) Enciclopedia de México, Mexico, Enciclopedia de México, 1974, vol. VIII, 374-375. 8) F. Tichelman, Socialisme in Indonesië. De Indische Sociaal Democratische Vereeniging, 1897-1917. Bronnenpublikatie. Vol. 1, Dordrecht, Foris, 1985, 212. 9) W. van Ravesteyn, ‘Boekbespreking', De Nieuwe Tijd, 1917, 628-636. A. Pannekoek, ‘Twee natuuronderzoekers in de maatschappelijk-geestelijke strijd', De Nieuwe Tijd, 1917; 300-314; 375-392. Whatever the merits of this view on the social origins of theosophy, the TS would also attract European nobles, with no recent revolutionary past. Also non-Europeans like Brahmans; mostly privileged, but not identical to bankers or factory owners. 10) Regeringsalmanak voor Nederlandsch-Indië 1933, 61; 67. 11) The Theosophist, May 1936, 242. Nazi propaganda posters also often depicted Hitler with an aura around his head; Albrecht W. Thöne, Das Licht der Arier. Licht-, Feuer- und Dunkelsymbolik des Nationalsozialismus. München: Minerva, 1979, 35. This essay was published, in slightly different form, in: H. Poeze, F. Tichelman, and A. Liem (eds.), Re-imagining Indonesia and the Southwest Pacific. Liber Amicorum in honor of Bob Hering. Stein: Kabar Seberang 1997. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 21:29:56 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An interesting paper Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108212956.00b85358@mail.eden.com> Herman de Tollenaere The Theosophical Society and labour and national movements in Indonesia, 1913-1918 Drs. H.A.O. de Tollenaere, Leiden, The Netherlands First, I will briefly introduce the Theosophical Society. Then, I will do likewise for the labour and national movements in Indonesia. Then, I will discuss the relationships between them. Eric Hobsbawm, writing on the age of empire , mentions Annie Besant and the apparently non-political ideology of theosophy . What, then, was appearance, what reality? The Theosophical Society (TS) was founded in 1875, with occult religious aims. It had members from scores of countries. Much literature sees it as either politically irrelevant or politically Leftist. As I found out working at my Ph. D., often neither was true. Hierarchy was an important element in its philosophy; most of its members were privileged in some way. One can test this in relationships to labour and national movements in Indonesia in 1913-1918. Among Dutch in the East Indies colony, the TS had the highest proportion of members anywhere in the world. It also had quite some support among the Javanese nobility (priyayi). Theosophical supporters put the names of their leaders literally on the map of cities in Java: in Batavia (Jakarta), there was Blavatsky Park; in Bandung, Olcott Park; in Semarang, Annie Besant Square. Dirk van Hinloopen Labberton, the leader of the TS in Indonesia in the period with which we are concerned, joined in 1899. At first, he was a manager of a sugar factory. Later, he became an official. From 1918-1921, he sat in the first Volksraad, the mock parliament of the Dutch East Indies. Five of its 39 members were theosophists. Another Volksraad member was Theo Vreede. He sat on Boards of Directors of various transport businesses. Like his brother Adriaan, he was also a prominent theosophist. In 1922, Theo Vreede held a speech at Leiden university. The lecturer [Vreede] feels sympathy for the trade unions; they should be led towards the right track by the government . The manager of the East Java Steam-Tram Company may have been thinking here of his brother Adriaan. A. Vreede had been Secretary of the Indies government in the 1910's; by then, he was director of the newly founded government labour office. THE LABOUR MOVEMENT IN INDONESIA As for the labour movement: in 1908, the first trade union was founded in Indonesia. It was the Vereeniging van Spoor-en Tramwegpersoneel, the VSTP, for public transport workers. At first, most members were Dutch, but by 1917, Indonesians already formed the great majority. Many of its leaders and members were socialists. In 1914, the first socialist political organization active in public, the Indische Sociaal Democratische Vereeniging, started. As with the VSTP, at the time it was founded, most members were Dutch; but at least in the Leftist majority tendency, Indonesians eventually predominated. Many socialists and trade unionists were also active in Sarekat Islam, the biggest organization then. Its members came from diverse groups, like traders, low and middle level civil servants, peasants, and workers. It was a multi-issue movement, concerned not only with Islamic religion, but also with protests against social hierarchy and colonial authority. NATIONALISM There were various nationalisms in Indonesia then, both regional and super-regional forms. In 1912, the same year as Sarekat Islam, the Indische Partij was founded. It demanded independence for the colony as a whole. It had a good relationship to the social democrat party of the Netherlands, the SDAP. With the Indische Partij, theosophists' relationships were not as good as some literature says. This showed when the government banned from Indonesia its three leaders Tjipto Mangoenkoesoemo, E.F.E. Douwes Dekker, and Soewardi Soerianingrat. Van Hinloopen Labberton, optimistic about winning people to his views, on 6 September 1913 wrote an open letter in the Theosofisch Maandblad voor Nederlandsch-Indi‰ to Tjipto and Soewardi. He admitted they were courageous as persons; but still, you erred. He urged them: You love freedom: but did you really think of what true freedom is? ... You really should know that True Freedom may only manifest itself as the tie of law exists and people act according to its limits. ... If you take away from a child that learns how to stand up and to walk, the tie by which the Father kept it up: surely it will stumble and not be free. ... Would you take away a young bird, still unable to fly, from its nest, which, yes, keeps it imprisoned high up in the branches, but which also by its limits saves and frees that youngster from an ignominious fall? Desist from actions like that. ... All that commits violence, all that murders, that soils itself with blood, in that red colour wears the mark of the Antichrist. For the country, only Govern ment authority has the right to wield the club of punishment. It should do this with a merciful heart, though. ... JAVA AND THE NETHERLANDS SHOULD BE ONE. ... not in brute force, but only in Wisdom and Love one may find true prog ress. May such a force of wisdom and love be granted to you, so that you too may be an instrument to make Java great, jointly with The Netherlands. ... Your Friend and Brother, D. VAN HINLOOPEN LABBERTON. Apart from all- Indies nationalism, as people then still said, there were regional nationalisms, based on aristocrats. One of the tendencies within the Javanese League BudiUtomo was the Committee for Javanese Nationalism, led by Prince Soetatmo Soeriokoesoemo. There was a similar tendency, led by Datoek [Sumatran title of nobility] Soetan Maharadja in West Sumatra. Both Soeriokoesoemo and Maharadja were theosophists. This differed from India. There, the international president of the Theosophical Society, Annie Besant, emphasized supra-regional unity. The regionalism of Tamil Nadu, where she lived, had links to her non-Brahman opponents. CONFLICTS: CONSCRIPTION After the Indische Partij leaders had been banned from Indonesia in 1913, they went to a meeting of Indonesians, living in The Netherlands, in The Hague, on the armed forces question. There, they clashed with supporters of the Theosophical Society. During the first world war, that debate continued on a much bigger scale; and this time, mainly in Indonesia itself. Whether or not the colonial government would introduce conscription for Indonesians became a big issue since 1916. Then, senior civil servants, officers, and business men founded a committee, called Indi‰ Weerbaar (Arm the Indies). Many of them were TS members. Without the contacts of the TS among the Javanese ‚lite, the pro-conscription campaign would probably have remained largely an all-European affair. The Theosophical Society supported introducing conscription, arguing from its occult theories. The editor of their monthly, Van Leeuwen, wrote on the social function of conscription: How difficult it still is for many people to understand that a nation cannot grow, cannot become an economic state, without the painful coercion of duty and neces sity. Fighting and militarism are still nearly always seen as the devils in our lives, which we should shirk away from and avoid as much as possible, as it is overlooked how inside every devil a deva [god or angel in theosophy] hides, who is able to bring us up towards the Light. Pain is the great Initiator. Coercion and fate are the educators of a still infant race [Indonesians] towards a conscious idea of national ity and a high feeling of duty. However, the trade union of Indonesian government pawnshop employees, the Perserikatan Pegawai Pegadaian Boemipoetera, rejected Indi‰ Weerbaar: as it thinks this is militarist propaganda. Besides, this union thinks that militarism strengthens capitalism. Against that, the indigenous people, many of whom are proletarians, should fight. The biggest union, the VSTP, held the same views. Its chairman, H. Dekker, and his wife, were members of both the TS and the Indische Sociaal Democratische Vereeniging; until Indi‰ Weerbaar started. That double membership was unusual, and did not survive Indi‰ Weerbaar (I do not know whether, and how, the marriage did). H. Dekker resigned from the TS, and attacked theosophy sharply in the socialist paper Het Vrije Woord. Mrs A.P. Dekker-Groot resigned as Het Vrije Woord's administrator, and from the ISDV. There was a potential for conflicts between the TS and the ISDV, the Marxists in Indonesia. That potential included: theosophists were often managers, socialists union activists in the same businesses; they had different philosophies on hierarchy and harmony, showing for instance in issues like housing and voting rights. Still, at first, there had been no big conflicts. However, in ISDV magazines since 1916, Van Hinloopen Labberton, the high priest of theosophy and of conscription, became the most criticized individual. Semaoen and Darsono, later leaders of the communist party PKI, wrote their first-ever articles against the theosophists Labberton, and Soetatmo Soeriokoesoemo, respectively. The ISDV often organized its anti-conscription activities jointly with Sarekat Islam local branches and with Insulinde, the successor organization to the Indische Partij. Warna-Warta, an Insulinde-minded daily, attacked the Theosophical Society. It called Labberton Beton [Malay: concrete], a poison to society , and the false prophet of theosophy-tai sapi . Tai sapi is Malay for ox dung. The journalist Marco went to jail for articles and cartoons against IW. He was a member of the left wing of Sarekat Islam. The right wing of Sarekat Islam's national executive was heavily theosophically-influenced and pro-conscription in 1916-1918. The conflict led to deep polarization in SI, in Indonesian society, and against colonial authority. By the end of the first world war, many thousands everywhere in the archipelago demonstrated against conscription. In Ujung Pandang on Sulawesi, three thousand people met against Indi‰ Weerbaar on 25 August 1918. The sailor Arga from West Java told them that the militia plans should be kicked to the edge of the universe, as soon as possible. Nine thousand turned up at a meeting in Kudus, then a small Java town, of the local branch of the PKBT, the Workers and Peasants' League organized by ISDV militants, on 13 October 1918. Darsono and Marco spoke against IW; a motion against it was voted for. ISDV leader Sneevliet was unable to speak, as a car taking him there broke down. Weeks later, the government banned him from the Indies, with the approval of the editorial of the Theosofisch Maandblad voor Nederlandsch Indi‰. The government, and theosophical papers, feared revolution. Conscription was not introduced; it ceased to be a hot issue. But the divisions which had arisen when it was, remained. We may conclude that the effect of the founding of Indi‰ Weerbaar was contrary to its governmental and theosophical sponsors' view of harmony along hierarchical lines of social and imperial pyramids. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 21:32:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Lecture Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108213232.00b85344@mail.eden.com> Lezingen / lectures Herman de Tollenaere ---- Amsterdam, vrijdag 6 maart 1998, op European Social Science History Conference, RAI congrescentrum, Europaplein: om 8 u.30 's ochtends, zaal K-5, "Religions and nations": Herman de Tollenaere over "Gandhi versus Annie Besant. Theosophy and contradictions in Indian politics, 1916-1933 (and the 1990s)." ============ this is an announcement of the lecture on Mar 6, 1998 at Amsterdam. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 23:30:22 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Conscription in WW I & II Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980108233022.00b98ba0@mail.eden.com> On reading the posts on the developments in Indonesia, the following came to my mind. some may be interested. During the WW I and WW II, the Theosophical Leaders were discussing about the war being between the white forces and black forces and supported the Allies. Krishnaji was living in the USA when the US got involved in the war. He was asked to help the war efforts and he refused. He refused even to get involved in any civilian capacity supporting the war. He appeared before a Government Board which reviews these cases and gave a six page justification why he would not participate or support. In the end, the Board told him to go back to India, since he was Indian Citizen. He told the board he would gladly return if they could arrange for his transportation. While the transportation was being arranged, he was asked to stay in Ojai and not to give any talks. No transportation was available till the war ended. At a time when everyone was in favor of supporting the War, Krishnaji stood very firm in his opposition to all wars did so till the end of his life. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 09:59:57 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: K Newsgroup being formed Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980109095957.00e078a4@mail.eden.com> >From what I have seen on newsgroups with smaller audience, it is unusual to see much of traffic. I may be wrong with the proposed one. There is one very useful purpose the newsgroups have. Since they are generally searched thru search engines, they are an excellent place to put information which is made available those who don't know about this maillist. I have seen this happen on theos-l and alt.theosophy. The maillists are liked by many of us due to the fast responses we see. mkr At 10:09 AM 1/9/1998 +0100, Dirk Lutzebaeck wrote: > >Today I found this proposol on alt.config to create a K oriented >newsgroup. This is a bit surprising to me because we hadn't much >discussions on forming a K newsgroup here and the request explictly >mentions this list. I don't want to stop Steve in creating this >newsgroup in anyway but to me it seems to be quite a challenge. > >Dirk > > > > Subject: Proposal: alt.philosophy.krishnamurti > From: Steve Nyberg > Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 02:28:41 -0800 > Message-ID: <34B4AA59.6FA@yahoo.com> > Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc. > Newsgroups: alt.config > Word Matches: LISTENING-L > > > > Summary of Proposal: > Create alt.philosophy.krishnamurti newsgroup > > Reason: > Jiddu Krishnamurti was a popular philosopher and teacher for most of the > 20th century (1895 to 1986). He was an influence on many significant > world figures, including Aldous Huxley, Joseph Campbell, Dr. David Bohm, > and Indira Gandhi. He wrote over a hundred books on philosophy > (amazon.com search of Krishnamurti,Jiddu returns 90 titles.) and has > schools and foundations in many parts of the world. For almost his > entire adult life he travelled the world speaking and lecturing. His > philosophy is often summed up by this quote: "Truth is a pathless land." > > Some of the internet resources include the Krishnamurti Foundation Trust > in England (http://www.brockwood.org.uk/) and the Krishnamurti > Foundation Of America (http://www.rain.org/~kfa/). There is also a site > in Berlin which has a mailing list listserv (listening-l) which has been > in place for 4-5 years > (http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de:1895/listening-l/html/menu.html). > > Current posting of newsgroup messages is spread out over many diverse > and non-related newsgroups, such as alt.zen, alt.meditation, > alt.religion.buddhism. > > Creating this newsgroup would help consolidate the messages on > Krishnamurti, and will be a nice addition to the listserv. The volume of > messages on the mail list can approach 100 per day, which can be > excessive. > > Please reply to stevenyberg@yahoo.com > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 11:35:56 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Adobe Acrobat Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980109173556.00759428@mail.eden.com> I am considering converting to Acrobat pdf file some theosophical material. Anyone has any experience and suggestions? I am told Adobe is coming up with a new version for Windows later this month, so I am waiting for it to get hold of a copy of the new version. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:59:56 -0700 From: "John R. Crocker" Subject: Re: Adobe Acrobat Message-ID: <001301bd1d28$7a253cc0$17338396@lo201c.registrar.umt.edu> >I am considering converting to Acrobat pdf file some theosophical material. >Anyone has any experience and suggestions? I am told Adobe is coming up with >a new version for Windows later this month, so I am waiting for it to get >hold of a copy of the new version. Actually I've used it a bit - its pretty straightforward. -JRc From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:13:39 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Adobe Acrobat Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980109211339.00daf040@mail.eden.com> At 01:44 PM 1/9/98 -0500, you wrote: >>I am considering converting to Acrobat pdf file some theosophical material. >>Anyone has any experience and suggestions? I am told Adobe is coming up >with >>a new version for Windows later this month, so I am waiting for it to get >>hold of a copy of the new version. >Actually I've used it a bit - its pretty straightforward. -JRc > Thanks. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:24:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: KFI E-Mail Address Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980109212436.00d5ea3c@mail.eden.com> Krishnamurti Foundation in India has e-mail. The snailmail address is: Krishnamurti Foundation India at Vasanta Vihar, 64/5 Greenways Road, Madras 600 028. Tel: (91)(44) 4937803/4937596 and Fax: (91)(44) 4991360. Their E-mail: kfi/varanasi@dartmail.dartnet.com . [PS: When is TS(Adyar) going to have e-mail? Next manvantara?!!!] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:53:52 -0500 From: Frank Reitemeyer Subject: Next manvantara Message-ID: <199801102154_MC2-2EDD-39C@compuserve.com> Ramadoss asked: >PS: When is TS(Adyar) going to have e-mail? Next manvantara?!!! I add: When is TS (Adyar) going to allow independent research and opens "non-existing" files and diaries? Next maha-manvantara??? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:58:02 -0500 From: Frank Reitemeyer Subject: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism Message-ID: <199801100158_MC2-2ECA-9ED1@compuserve.com> MKR wrote: >On reading the posts on the developments in Indonesia, the following came >to my mind. some may be interested. >During the WW I and WW II, the Theosophical Leaders were discussing about >the war being between the white forces and black forces and supported the >Allies. >Krishnaji was living in the USA when the US got involved in the war. He was >asked to help the war efforts and he refused. He refused even to get >involved in any civilian capacity supporting the war. He appeared before a >Government Board which reviews these cases and gave a six page >justification why he would not participate or support. In the end, the >Board told him to go back to India, since he was Indian Citizen. He told >the board he would gladly return if they could arrange for his >transportation. While the transportation was being arranged, he was asked >to stay in Ojai and not to give any talks. No transportation was available >till the war ended. >At a time when everyone was in favor of supporting the War, Krishnaji stood >very firm in his opposition to all wars did so till the end of his life. >mkr Just so, MKR. And Krishnaji said, as I read in a German book some years ago, in 1919 that the Great War was unwise und Wilson's policy unjust with the result of a new Great War in 20 years... And WWII began in 1939. Any questions? By the by, there is another interesting look from the point of view of occult mathematics. As many serious students of Theosophy believe, with the birth of HPB - our mother - a new era began. On the other hand many New Agers believe the Age of Aquarius began in 1900, others say in 1960, others have yet another date. Contradiction or paradox? A look in the Occult Glossary by Dr. Gottfried de Purucker may assist. We learn that there is not only a single cycle but many cycles overlapping, and each cycle has a sunrise, a noon and a sunset. These starts and ends are 10% from the time of the cycle. So 10 % from 2.160 years (as it is be said for a "day of the world") is 216 years. Add this 216 years to 1831 and you have the begin of the Age of Aquarius sui generis in 2047. The half of 216 is 113. Add 113 to 1831 and you have the half-time, the lowest point of the time of this our transitional period in 1944, marking the year of the high noon of WWII, a period of the greatest and most terrible slaughter in known history of mankind with billions of tons of TNT. Chance or not? In this contect the several hints and warnings of GdeP among the ES or other degrees in the early 1930's (!) about the upcoming WWII, as cited in The Eclectic Theosophist, may be of some interest for us unveiling the deeper reasons for the activities of our Theosophical teachers. Ringding Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:49:01 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980110044901.0115e678@mail.eden.com> At 02:03 AM 1/10/1998 -0500, you wrote: >MKR wrote: >>On reading the posts on the developments in Indonesia, the following came >>to my mind. some may be interested. > >>During the WW I and WW II, the Theosophical Leaders were discussing about >>the war being between the white forces and black forces and supported the >>Allies. > >>Krishnaji was living in the USA when the US got involved in the war. He >was >>asked to help the war efforts and he refused. He refused even to get >>involved in any civilian capacity supporting the war. He appeared before a >>Government Board which reviews these cases and gave a six page >>justification why he would not participate or support. In the end, the >>Board told him to go back to India, since he was Indian Citizen. He told >>the board he would gladly return if they could arrange for his >>transportation. While the transportation was being arranged, he was asked >>to stay in Ojai and not to give any talks. No transportation was available >>till the war ended. > >>At a time when everyone was in favor of supporting the War, Krishnaji >stood >>very firm in his opposition to all wars did so till the end of his life. > >>mkr > >Just so, MKR. And Krishnaji said, as I read in a German book some years >ago, in 1919 that the Great War was unwise und Wilson's policy unjust with >the result of a new Great War in 20 years... And WWII began in 1939. Any >questions? By the by, there is another interesting look from the point of >view of occult mathematics. As many serious students of Theosophy believe, >with the birth of HPB - our mother - a new era began. On the other hand >many New Agers believe the Age of Aquarius began in 1900, others say in >1960, others have yet another date. Contradiction or paradox? A look in the >Occult Glossary by Dr. Gottfried de Purucker may assist. We learn that >there is not only a single cycle but many cycles overlapping, and each >cycle has a sunrise, a noon and a sunset. These starts and ends are 10% >from the time of the cycle. So 10 % from 2.160 years (as it is be said for >a "day of the world") is 216 years. Add this 216 years to 1831 and you have >the begin of the Age of Aquarius sui generis in 2047. The half of 216 is >113. Add 113 to 1831 and you have the half-time, the lowest point of the >time of this our transitional period in 1944, marking the year of the high >noon of WWII, a period of the greatest and most terrible slaughter in known >history of mankind with billions of tons of TNT. Chance or not? In this >contect the several hints and warnings of GdeP among the ES or other >degrees in the early 1930's (!) about the upcoming WWII, as cited in The >Eclectic Theosophist, may be of some interest for us unveiling the deeper >reasons for the activities of our Theosophical teachers. > >Ringding Frank Thanks for the post. I think several people saw the coming of the two wars with all the destruction and immense suffering of billions of people. Few countries were spared of the pain and suffering and we can only hope that such large scale wars are behind us. As for the cycles, I agree there seems to be multiple ones and perhaps overlapping. There is also a thought that some cycles may be flexible. Of course when we understand cycles, they can be used for good and bad depending on how we employ them and to what results. MKR PS: On pacifism, I believe after the WW II, Iceland had a Defense Minister who was a pacifist. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:42:48 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism Message-ID: <46d7b7e4.34b7a50a@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-10 05:58:02 EST, you write: > >PS: On pacifism, I believe after the WW II, Iceland had a Defense Minister >who was a pacifist. > > On the other hand, Lord Dowding, who commanded the RAF during the Battle of Britain was a Theosophist. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:23:03 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980110132303.00f40e04@mail.eden.com> At 11:52 AM 1/10/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-10 05:58:02 EST, you write: > >> >>PS: On pacifism, I believe after the WW II, Iceland had a Defense Minister >>who was a pacifist. >> >> > >On the other hand, Lord Dowding, who commanded the RAF during the Battle of >Britain was a Theosophist. > >Chuck the Heretic > So Theosophists on both sides. Any Nazi Theosophists? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:45:44 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980110134544.00bc32fc@mail.eden.com> At 11:52 AM 1/10/1998 -0500, Drpsionic wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-10 05:58:02 EST, you write: > >> >>PS: On pacifism, I believe after the WW II, Iceland had a Defense Minister >>who was a pacifist. >> >> > >On the other hand, Lord Dowding, who commanded the RAF during the Battle of >Britain was a Theosophist. > >Chuck the Heretic CJ who was living in London during the WWII helped the war effort in a civilian capacity. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:46:47 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-10 14:32:33 EST, you write: >So Theosophists on both sides. Any Nazi Theosophists? > >mkr If it weren't so cold out I'd say George Arundale, but seriously, I think there were some but no one will admit it. They certainly had their defenders in letters to the Adyar Theosophist during the 1930's. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:06:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980110230624.006f12f0@mail.eden.com> At 05:53 PM 1/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-10 14:32:33 EST, you write: > >>So Theosophists on both sides. Any Nazi Theosophists? >> >>mkr > >If it weren't so cold out I'd say George Arundale, but seriously, I think >there were some but no one will admit it. They certainly had their defenders >in letters to the Adyar Theosophist during the 1930's. > >Chuck the Heretic In the recent Dutch publication, there is a mention about how there was discussion in the Theosophical literature of the time that Hitler had a beautiful aura. It is also mentioned that it was when CJ criticised the atrocities committed on Jews that Nazis shutdown Theosophical centers in Germany. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:15:18 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism Message-ID: <1602043e.34b84757@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-10 18:11:50 EST, you write: >In the recent Dutch publication, there is a mention about how there was >discussion in the Theosophical literature of the time that Hitler had a >beautiful aura. There was a great fascination with fascism in the TS during the 20's and 30's. The Adyar Theosophist ran a very long, 2 part article praising Mussolini. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 03:33:08 -0500 From: Frank Reitemeyer Subject: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism II (Correction) Message-ID: <199801100333_MC2-2EC5-6D1E@compuserve.com> My first message has an typo in the calculation, written in haste, here is the correct one: >MKR wrote: >On reading the posts on the developments in Indonesia, the following came >to my mind. some may be interested. >During the WW I and WW II, the Theosophical Leaders were discussing about >the war being between the white forces and black forces and supported the >Allies. >Krishnaji was living in the USA when the US got involved in the war. He was >asked to help the war efforts and he refused. He refused even to get >involved in any civilian capacity supporting the war. He appeared before a >Government Board which reviews these cases and gave a six page >justification why he would not participate or support. In the end, the >Board told him to go back to India, since he was Indian Citizen. He told >the board he would gladly return if they could arrange for his >transportation. While the transportation was being arranged, he was asked >to stay in Ojai and not to give any talks. No transportation was available >till the war ended. >At a time when everyone was in favor of supporting the War, Krishnaji stood >very firm in his opposition to all wars did so till the end of his life. >mkr Just so, MKR. And Krishnaji said, as I read in a German book some years ago, in 1919 that the Great War was unwise und Wilson's policy unjust with the result of a new Great War in 20 years... And WWII began in 1939. Any questions? By the by, there is another interesting look from the point of view of occult mathematics. As many serious students of Theosophy believe, with the birth of HPB - our mother - a new era began. On the other hand many New Agers believe the Age of Aquarius began in 1900, others say in 1960, others have yet another date. Contradiction or paradox? A look in the Occult Glossary by Dr. Gottfried de Purucker may assist. We learn that there is not only a single cycle but many cycles overlapping, and each cycle has a sunrise, a noon and a sunset. These starts and ends are 10% from the time of the cycle. So 10 % from 2.160 years (as it is be said for a "day of the world") is 216 years. Add this 216 years to 1831 and you have the begin of the Age of Aquarius sui generis in 2047. The half of 216 is 108. Add 108 to 1831 and you have the half-time, the lowest point of the time of this our transitional period in 1939, marking the beginning of WWII, a period of the greatest and most terrible slaughter in known history of mankind with billions of tons of TNT. Chance or not? In this contect the several hints and warnings of GdeP among the ES or other degrees in the early 1930's (!) about the upcoming WWII, as cited in The Eclectic Theosophist, may be of some interest for us unveiling the deeper reasons for the activities of our Theosophical teachers. Ringding Frank < From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:28:25 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Re Krishnaji's Pacifism II (Correction) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111082825.007088a4@mail.eden.com> At 11:47 PM 1/10/1998 -0500, Frank Reitemeyer wrote: >of mankind with billions of tons of TNT. Chance or not? In this contect the >several hints and warnings of GdeP among the ES or other degrees in the >early 1930's (!) about the upcoming WWII, as cited in The Eclectic >Theosophist, may be of some interest for us unveiling the deeper reasons >for the activities of our Theosophical teachers. > >Ringding Frank I recall that K openly discussed in his discussions and lectures about the inequities created by the WWI and how a new war inevitable (I am quoting from memory and need to look up for specifics) while TS circles may have discussed this in "secrecy" of ES or other degrees. It looks like anyone who had a clear thinking and vision could see the war coming. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:33:50 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: Problems Message-ID: Alan: >I have been offline since last Saturday due to storms causing massive >phone outages in Cornwall. I will try to catch up on the massive amount >of e-mail received (Thursday) ASAP. > >Alan Hi Alan (Big hug to you, too!) :o) Welcome back! I'm sorry about the storm. It's that dratted helmet again. You know, that Saddam Hussein won't behave and I keep on trying to blast him. However, I always ended up hitting Cornwall. Is Cornwall a parallel universe to Iraq? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:33:17 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: relativity, quantum, and superstring theories Message-ID: Alan: >In message , Thoa >Tran writes >>It seems to me that this recording >>medium is one huge memory bank. Since time is an illusion, why is there >>need for memory? > >Time *may* be an illusion, but it is nothing more than a measurment of >movement in *space*. Yes, it is the temporal fourth dimension. However, I was referring to the Ultimate memory. Since dimensions, mathematically, can go up much higher, is there any way that we can get closer to the Ultimate via mathematics? Of course, what we know is very small compared to what we don't know. >There is no *need* for memory - memory just IS. Memory is, in a >sense, Being itself, and I suggest that it is potentially possible for any >one of us to *remember* anything that has ever happened (or >happens?). Yes, that makes sense that memory is the Being itself, and that there is, ultimately, no *need* for memory. I think you and I are getting at the same thing. What I'm wondering is why, in Theosophy, there is this mentioning of Akasic memory? At what level is this Akasic memory? >Ignatius of Loyala (Founder of the Jesuits) said that there are three >powers of the "soul" - memory, understanding, and will. Yep. Yes, at the soul level, these powers affect the environment and is subjective. Everything can be looked at as pure subjectivity, even from a scientific level. However, to avoid solipsism, we can look at the world as infinite possibilities of worlds, the result of each world is from the effect of each subjectivity on each other. We can also cancel out memory, understanding and will if we imagine a subject switching place with another subject. In order for one subject to really become the other, the former's memory, understanding and will will have to become the other's. What is left over is pure consciousness. Even consciousness is ultimately not necessary. Like memory, it just IS, the Being itself. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:33:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: SD Symposium Update Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111233330.00f9f8a8@mail.eden.com> >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:18:26 -0500 >From: AStrycker >Subject: 3rd Symposium on SD M K Ramadoss, >In the flyer on the subject, there was a question how you can help. Here >are some ideas of using computers and Internet technology as an aid both >for the writers/presenters to communicate and making the Symposium material >available to everyone in the Cyber space around the world. It is an >opportunity that is available for the first time for the Symposium. > I agree. Unfortunately, a lot of people are not 'connected' yet, including Nancy. She supports the use of electronic media (email, WWW, etc.) as a means of expanding our reach of contact. I further feel it provides an excellent opportunity for providing information globally as it becomes available for very little cost. Postage stamps are expensive, publications are expensive, and both are time consuming. I see an excellent opportunity for taking advantage of electronic communications. >1. Request everyone who is submitting abstracts, summaries and final paper >to either e-mail them to you or submit them in diskettes in Microsoft Word >or WordPerfect format. It is more than likely that everyone may be able to >do it. > >2. As and when the material arrive, they can be distributed on the Internet >by e-mail to everybody interested. This can be done as soon as the material >arrives. > >3. This would provide opportunity for the entire Theosophical community to >comment on the material. There are scholars around the world who could >provide immensely valuable feedback which will be useful to everyone >including the committee screening the material. > >4. When the committee selects the papers, they can immediately announce the >selection on the Internet. > These ideas are interesting. Unfortunately, I don't think it will happen for this conference. Review of the proposed papers will be conducted by the review committee. At this time the review committee doesn't exist. When the committee is formed, they can decide how they want to proceed with the decision process. This idea has been forwarded to Nancy Blott who will select the committee. >5. As and when the final papers are ready, they can be distributed by >e-mail around the world. > I had planned to put the program on the website when it becomes available. Some of the people are submitting their proposals for papers electronically, and I assume they can do the same for their paper. It shouldn't be too difficult to include their papers as well as titles on the website when selected by the review committee. Providing their email address as part the paper would facilitate discussions as well. Good idea. >6. During the symposium, each day after the morning and afternoon session, >a summary of proceedings and discussions can be prepared. It can be printed >immediately and distributed to those present and also e-mailed to everyone >interested. > >7. This way those who for one reason or the other cannot be present at the >symposium can keep up with the symposium at every step. > Interesting idea. I'm probably not going to be able to do this. Putting discussion (questions and answers) on the website associated with their papers would add value to those not being able to physically attend the conference. I may be able to do this after the conference is over, but I would have to think about it. It could take a lot of time to do this. I know it sounds like an excuse, but my time is divided. I of course work (more than a 40 hr/wk job). I also hold an office with the local American Chemical Society section. Currently, I am in the thick of writing/edting an annual report for last year's activities. Others have contributed to the writing, but right now the report is about 100 pg. Ugh. I also have a family with 3 kids (grade school age) and they are going to many activities. In between all of that I squeeze in time for TS. I am part of a study center in Tulsa, but am actually a member-at-large and always have been. Most of my activities have been associated with the Midwest Federation. I am excited about the opportunity to learn how to set up a webpage for this event. I appreciate your interest in it and the conference. If you think you might attend the conference (or someone you know about) and want to set up something similar to what you propose, let me know. We need the support of everyone who wants to help. >9. If anyone has any comments on the above, please post them to theos-l, >ti-l, theos-talk with a copy to Strycker. > >10. I will be willing to help in any of the above tasks in the cyberspace. > I appreciate your help in this area. I was on the theos-l list last year for a month or so. The discussions were interesting. However, unfortunately I was pretty busy with other activities as well and although it didn't take a lot of time going through them everyday, it was relentless and I eventually decided not to stick with it. Even so, it is a great avenue for communication. SO, if you don't mind I will send notes to you as new information becomes available so that you may forward them to the different list groups for me. If this doesn't work for you let me know. Again, thank you for your ideas and I apologize for taking so long to respond. I have been discussing these ideas with Nancy. Arden From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:33:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: SD Symposium Update Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111233330.00f9f8a8@mail.eden.com> >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:18:26 -0500 >From: AStrycker >Subject: 3rd Symposium on SD M K Ramadoss, >In the flyer on the subject, there was a question how you can help. Here >are some ideas of using computers and Internet technology as an aid both >for the writers/presenters to communicate and making the Symposium material >available to everyone in the Cyber space around the world. It is an >opportunity that is available for the first time for the Symposium. > I agree. Unfortunately, a lot of people are not 'connected' yet, including Nancy. She supports the use of electronic media (email, WWW, etc.) as a means of expanding our reach of contact. I further feel it provides an excellent opportunity for providing information globally as it becomes available for very little cost. Postage stamps are expensive, publications are expensive, and both are time consuming. I see an excellent opportunity for taking advantage of electronic communications. >1. Request everyone who is submitting abstracts, summaries and final paper >to either e-mail them to you or submit them in diskettes in Microsoft Word >or WordPerfect format. It is more than likely that everyone may be able to >do it. > >2. As and when the material arrive, they can be distributed on the Internet >by e-mail to everybody interested. This can be done as soon as the material >arrives. > >3. This would provide opportunity for the entire Theosophical community to >comment on the material. There are scholars around the world who could >provide immensely valuable feedback which will be useful to everyone >including the committee screening the material. > >4. When the committee selects the papers, they can immediately announce the >selection on the Internet. > These ideas are interesting. Unfortunately, I don't think it will happen for this conference. Review of the proposed papers will be conducted by the review committee. At this time the review committee doesn't exist. When the committee is formed, they can decide how they want to proceed with the decision process. This idea has been forwarded to Nancy Blott who will select the committee. >5. As and when the final papers are ready, they can be distributed by >e-mail around the world. > I had planned to put the program on the website when it becomes available. Some of the people are submitting their proposals for papers electronically, and I assume they can do the same for their paper. It shouldn't be too difficult to include their papers as well as titles on the website when selected by the review committee. Providing their email address as part the paper would facilitate discussions as well. Good idea. >6. During the symposium, each day after the morning and afternoon session, >a summary of proceedings and discussions can be prepared. It can be printed >immediately and distributed to those present and also e-mailed to everyone >interested. > >7. This way those who for one reason or the other cannot be present at the >symposium can keep up with the symposium at every step. > Interesting idea. I'm probably not going to be able to do this. Putting discussion (questions and answers) on the website associated with their papers would add value to those not being able to physically attend the conference. I may be able to do this after the conference is over, but I would have to think about it. It could take a lot of time to do this. I know it sounds like an excuse, but my time is divided. I of course work (more than a 40 hr/wk job). I also hold an office with the local American Chemical Society section. Currently, I am in the thick of writing/edting an annual report for last year's activities. Others have contributed to the writing, but right now the report is about 100 pg. Ugh. I also have a family with 3 kids (grade school age) and they are going to many activities. In between all of that I squeeze in time for TS. I am part of a study center in Tulsa, but am actually a member-at-large and always have been. Most of my activities have been associated with the Midwest Federation. I am excited about the opportunity to learn how to set up a webpage for this event. I appreciate your interest in it and the conference. If you think you might attend the conference (or someone you know about) and want to set up something similar to what you propose, let me know. We need the support of everyone who wants to help. >9. If anyone has any comments on the above, please post them to theos-l, >ti-l, theos-talk with a copy to Strycker. > >10. I will be willing to help in any of the above tasks in the cyberspace. > I appreciate your help in this area. I was on the theos-l list last year for a month or so. The discussions were interesting. However, unfortunately I was pretty busy with other activities as well and although it didn't take a lot of time going through them everyday, it was relentless and I eventually decided not to stick with it. Even so, it is a great avenue for communication. SO, if you don't mind I will send notes to you as new information becomes available so that you may forward them to the different list groups for me. If this doesn't work for you let me know. Again, thank you for your ideas and I apologize for taking so long to respond. I have been discussing these ideas with Nancy. Arden From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:36:51 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: SD Symposium Update - 2 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111233651.00f9f8a8@mail.eden.com> >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:18:28 -0500 >From: AStrycker >Subject: 3rd Symposium on Secret Doctrine >Hi >I have posted the following to theos-news, theos-l, ti-l and theos-talk. >FYI > >mkr > > >>Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 06:53:30 -0500 (EST) >>Reply-To: ramadoss@eden.com >>Originator: theos-news@vnet.net >>Sender: theos-news@vnet.net >>From: M K Ramadoss >>To: Multiple recipients of list >>Subject: 3rd Symposium on Secret Doctrine >>X-Comment: Theosophical News/Events Announcements. (public) >> THIRD SYMPOSIUM on THE SECRET DOCTRINE >> >>and H. P. BLAVATSKY >> >> >>May 21 to 24, 1998 >> >> >> >>etc. Thanks. As per the other email, I would like to continue sending information directly to you and allow you to forward to the different list groups. Similarly, you may forward interesting comments and ideas to me. I will review each one of them. Arden From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:39:15 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Update on SD Symposium Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111233915.00f9f8a8@mail.eden.com> >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:18:31 -0500 >From: AStrycker >Subject: 3rd Symposium on SD and HPB M K Ramadoss, >I am copying this msg to Arden Strycker so that as and when updates are >becoming available, Internet e-mail can be taken advantage of by posting >the updates at theos-news, theos-l, ti-l, theos-talk. > >Arden may want to subscribe to theos-news, theos-l, ti-l by sending a >e-mail to >LISTSERV@VNET.NET with a message > > subscribe theos-??? Arden Strycker > >and subscribe to theos-talk by sending a msg with > >subscribe to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > >Arden may also want to provide more information on the sponsors they are >looking for and also more details of who is presiding and who is going to >review and accept or reject the articles submitted fo the Symposium. > As per the other email communication, I would love to subscribe, but have too many things going on at the same time as it is. I was on the list for awhile last year. I asked Nancy about the status of the review committee. As of the moment, a review committee doesn't exist. She will be putting one together shortly. If you or someone you know are interested in being on the committee, contact her directly. I can forward information to her if wish. When the committee is formed, I am sure they will decide how to proceed. I also talked to her about sponsors and what help she needs. There are a number of activities going on simultaneously right now. She is putting out her own money as best she can to cover costs trusting that money will come when she needs it. I updated the website providing a little bit more information about the financial needs. She anticipates needing funds for providing expenses to invited featured speakers. She is contacting a number of well-known people to see who will be available and who might be willing to come. Obviously, those people can't go to everything they are invited to, so we don't know yet how it will turn out. None-the-less, Nancy expects to need financial assistance in this area. We also will need 6 or so people willing to help with their time during the conference and several other people prior to the conference. Those interested should contact Nancy. Her home phone number is 785-235-2801 and you can leave a message. You may also contact her at work (particularly Sun. when it is slow) at 800-289-2673, Consumer Goods group, extension 7462. I appreciate your interest and will keep you posted of new information. Arden From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:10:31 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Pacifist Defense Minister Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980112131031.00f9e334@mail.eden.com> The following msg just shows that there are some very determined pacifists and it takes a lot of courage and risk to stick to one's principles. mkr >From: "Mika Perala" >Subject: Defence minister >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 22:21:20 PST Hi! I wrote you privately cause theos-l doesn`t like my messages and I can`t get through :) J. Mead thinks its my servers fault. Anyway, Finland had a theosophist-pacifist-defence minister after the WWII. Yrjo Kallinen was his name. I guess it was thought that russians won`t get nervous when our little country has a man of peace in that job. Some twenty-five years earlier the government was about to execute him for being "on the wrong side on the civil war"! There is a story which claims that executioners were ready on the line to shoot but Kallinen made a speech to them and they couldn`t shoot him. Must have been an extraordinary man, anyway. You can post this to the list if you like. Mika TI member Finland From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:08:57 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Problems nearly over Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >Hi Alan (Big hug to you, too!) :o) I just love those big hugs! BTW, quoted text on my PC shows in red, so your smiley face above has a red nose .... [hehehehehehe] > >Welcome back! I'm sorry about the storm. It's that dratted helmet again. >You know, that Saddam Hussein won't behave and I keep on trying to blast >him. However, I always ended up hitting Cornwall. Is Cornwall a parallel >universe to Iraq? Did you make the helmet from a kit, or buy it from Chuck? Cornwall is a parallel universe to the middle ages. B I G HUG, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:18:09 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: relativity, quantum, and superstring theories Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >Alan: >> >>Time *may* be an illusion, but it is nothing more than a measurment of >>movement in *space*. > >Yes, it is the temporal fourth dimension. However, I was referring to the >Ultimate memory. Since dimensions, mathematically, can go up much higher, >is there any way that we can get closer to the Ultimate via mathematics? I have often thought "let pi=1" and start from there, but I don't have the math to go further. As for the Ultimate memory, I would equate it with Ultimate Being. A thought just returned to me which may be relevant. I can strum jazz chords on a guitar, complete six-string ones. I can no longer tell anyone how to make the chord shapes though. It is my fingers that remember them, not my usual "recall" faculties. >Of course, what we know is very small compared to what we don't know. Except for Chuck, who knows everything ... > >>There is no *need* for memory - memory just IS. Memory is, in a >>sense, Being itself, and I suggest that it is potentially possible for any >>one of us to *remember* anything that has ever happened (or >>happens?). > >Yes, that makes sense that memory is the Being itself, and that there is, >ultimately, no *need* for memory. I think you and I are getting at the >same thing. What I'm wondering is why, in Theosophy, there is this >mentioning of Akasic memory? At what level is this Akasic memory? The upper face of Yetzirah [kabbalah] or the higher astral [theosophy]. > >>Ignatius of Loyala (Founder of the Jesuits) said that there are three >>powers of the "soul" - memory, understanding, and will. Yep. > >Yes, at the soul level, these powers affect the environment and is >subjective. Everything can be looked at as pure subjectivity, even from a >scientific level. However, to avoid solipsism, we can look at the world as >infinite possibilities of worlds, the result of each world is from the >effect of each subjectivity on each other. We can also cancel out memory, >understanding and will if we imagine a subject switching place with another >subject. In order for one subject to really become the other, the former's >memory, understanding and will will have to become the other's. What is >left over is pure consciousness. Even consciousness is ultimately not >necessary. Like memory, it just IS, the Being itself. Err... if we can imagine, it is because we have memory. Consciousness is awarenesss of Being, > The Parallel Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:24:31 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Pacifist Defense Minister Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-12 14:40:08 EST, you write: >There is a story which claims that executioners were ready on >the line to shoot but Kallinen made a speech to them and they couldn`t >shoot him. Must have been an extraordinary man, anyway. > > That's what you get when you don't pay your executioners enough. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:20:29 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: to be registered Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- I saw a couple of subscribers from Italy in theos-l. May be posting this msg over on theos-l might help to locate someone. Also the President of European Federation TS (Adyar) has e-mail. We can forward the request as well. Just a thought. mkr At 09:52 PM 1/11/1998 -0500, you wrote: > > > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- >In message <199801111245_MC2-2EE4-74DE@compuserve.com>, >anto <71410.2155@compuserve.com> writes >>i like to be registered to partecipate to the theosophy life >>possibly here in italy. >>do you know any address can i find here in Milan or Turin in the north of >>Italy >>anyway my coordinates: >> >>Pietro Mangialardo >>v. Moise Loria 60 >>20144 Milan - Italy >>+39-2-461777 >> >>thanks for cooperation >> >>ciao >> >>pietro > >(Pietro is not yet on the theosophy mailing lists, so only direct e-mail will >help him until I can subcribe him manually - Alan) >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:36:51 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: SD Symposium Update - 2 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111233651.00f9f8a8@mail.eden.com> >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:18:28 -0500 >From: AStrycker >Subject: 3rd Symposium on Secret Doctrine > >Hi >I have posted the following to theos-news, theos-l, ti-l and theos-talk. >FYI > >mkr > > >>Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 06:53:30 -0500 (EST) >>Reply-To: ramadoss@eden.com >>Originator: theos-news@vnet.net >>Sender: theos-news@vnet.net >>From: M K Ramadoss >>To: Multiple recipients of list >>Subject: 3rd Symposium on Secret Doctrine >>X-Comment: Theosophical News/Events Announcements. (public) >> THIRD SYMPOSIUM on THE SECRET DOCTRINE >> >>and H. P. BLAVATSKY >> >> >>May 21 to 24, 1998 >> >> >> >>etc. Thanks. As per the other email, I would like to continue sending information directly to you and allow you to forward to the different list groups. Similarly, you may forward interesting comments and ideas to me. I will review each one of them. Arden From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:39:15 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Update on SD Symposium Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980111233915.00f9f8a8@mail.eden.com> >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:18:31 -0500 >From: AStrycker >Subject: 3rd Symposium on SD and HPB M K Ramadoss, >I am copying this msg to Arden Strycker so that as and when updates are >becoming available, Internet e-mail can be taken advantage of by posting >the updates at theos-news, theos-l, ti-l, theos-talk. > >Arden may want to subscribe to theos-news, theos-l, ti-l by sending a >e-mail to >LISTSERV@VNET.NET with a message > > subscribe theos-??? Arden Strycker > >and subscribe to theos-talk by sending a msg with > >subscribe to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > >Arden may also want to provide more information on the sponsors they are >looking for and also more details of who is presiding and who is going to >review and accept or reject the articles submitted fo the Symposium. > As per the other email communication, I would love to subscribe, but have too many things going on at the same time as it is. I was on the list for awhile last year. I asked Nancy about the status of the review committee. As of the moment, a review committee doesn't exist. She will be putting one together shortly. If you or someone you know are interested in being on the committee, contact her directly. I can forward information to her if wish. When the committee is formed, I am sure they will decide how to proceed. I also talked to her about sponsors and what help she needs. There are a number of activities going on simultaneously right now. She is putting out her own money as best she can to cover costs trusting that money will come when she needs it. I updated the website providing a little bit more information about the financial needs. She anticipates needing funds for providing expenses to invited featured speakers. She is contacting a number of well-known people to see who will be available and who might be willing to come. Obviously, those people can't go to everything they are invited to, so we don't know yet how it will turn out. None-the-less, Nancy expects to need financial assistance in this area. We also will need 6 or so people willing to help with their time during the conference and several other people prior to the conference. Those interested should contact Nancy. Her home phone number is 785-235-2801 and you can leave a message. You may also contact her at work (particularly Sun. when it is slow) at 800-289-2673, Consumer Goods group, extension 7462. I appreciate your interest and will keep you posted of new information. Arden From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:57:18 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Tibetan Monks in Charlotte NC Message-ID: <01ISAA198LWW8ZMXPA@InfoAve.Net> the Ganden Jangtse monks (Tibetan) will be in Charlotte NC from Sat Jan. 17 through Thur. Jan 22. Schedule: Sat. Jan. 17 7:30pm Peaceful Dragon - Asian Culture Center and Tea House. Tea Ceremony; Puja, White Tara, other Rituals etc. Sun. Jan. 18 4:00pm Dana Auditorium at Queens College Music, Rituals, and Dance During the week they will be building a Sand Mandala at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Charlotte NC. They also will be available for Initiations and Healing Ceremonies during the week. for futher information contact: John E. Mead jmead@infoave.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:22:58 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Judge's "unpublished" letters/other early material Message-ID: <34BC4BB1.10FF@eden.com> Lmhem111 wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-12 23:59:52 EST, you write: > > << only a very small sample of Judge's letters have even been made public. > Most of Judge's letters remain unpublished and unavailable in TS archives. >> > > I find this quite fascinating and at the same time somewhat troubling. What > would be the purpose in this day and age of not making his letters public, > particularly since so many are interested in the history of the Theosophical > Movement and in what the Founders had to say and teach? This is very odd! Has > any effort been made or has any pressure been put on the TS to make those > "unavailable" letters public? By the TS, I'm assuming you mean the Adyar TS. I > had thought that most of his letters had been published by the Theosophy > Company, the TS (Pasadena) and Point Loma Publications. > > I have the following: > > LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME by WQJ > Theosophy Company, 1946 > > PRACTICAL OCCULTISM, Letters by WQJ > edited by Arthur L. Conger > Theosophical University Press, 1951 > > ECHOES OF THE ORIENT (3 volumes) > Compliled by Dara Eklund > TS (Pasadena) > (Volume 3 has "Answers to Correspondence") > > I thought that just about wrapped it up as far as Judges' correspondence is > concerned. I guess I was wrong. > > Lmhem111 I am sure there is a gold mine of unpublished material of great historical value is still around. Any historian would find it of greatest importance and use. I hope some one will start the process and the benefits could be enormous. The material I am referring to is not necessarily confined to Judge. It is very broad and primarily relate to early days of the TS. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:59:01 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: Re: What is ART? Baby, don't hurt me - no mo! Message-ID: <08fe00405220e18UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> > >JKEITHPRICE@CLASSIC.MSN.COM >JKEITHPRICE@MSN.COM > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > >-----Original Message----- >From: KeithHouston >To: theos-l@vnet.net >Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 6:07 PM >Subject: What is ART? Baby, don't hurt me - no mo! > > >>I appreciate Mark K's comments on art, maybe because he IS an artist, which >>I am not. I feel that art is definitely a way to access emotional, >>psychological, and spiritual realsms in the way the spoken word can never >>do. Exalted (or debased) states of consciousness can be evoked in the >>viewer. The art of the ancients was practically ALL art of a spiritual >>nature starting with the cave painting and sculptures of our most distant >>ancestors. >> >>I have been rereading works on the Golden Mean porportion in books on >Sacred >>Geometry. The ancient greeks discoverd mathematical formulas for >expressing >>the order and design of our world as expressed in two dimensional or plane >>geometric expressions. >> >>Temples in Greece and even Egypt use formula to express this divine beauty >>and invoke the gods and archetypes themselves in glyph and stone. >> >>Ancient art was often stylized and unrealistic because they were expressing >>inner states and other worlds. The renesance gave us perspective and >>brougth the angels themselves down to the earth plane and put them in >Mary's >>bedroom in an uncomfortably realistic fashion. Nobody believed those >wings. >>They were too real! >> >>Zen art is an interesting attempt to do more with less and get >enlightenment >>with a few brushstrokes. I have learned to appreciate modern art and the >>truncated, distorted, forms persist in commericial art and logos of modern >>states and corporations. >> >>You, know people used to believe in the divine rights of kings and that the >>priests really could contact the gods and give prophecy. These things are >>still true today but it is so hard to believe. Most people chase the most >>devasting of illusions and art forms commonsly called the "dollar". Talk >>about MAYA! It isn't so much an illusion as collusion. I will believe >>those green sheets are worth something a kill myself chasing them if you >>will. >> >>We had a talk at our lodge in Houston by a lady from New York who is a >>theosophist and artist (not uncommon really). She spoke on the >spirituality >>behing the heiroglyphs. She pointed out that the vulture (so repulsive to >>many) is actually a bird of high spiritual significance to the Egyptians as >>are the dung rolling beetles or scarabs. >> >>Beauty is in the eye, as they say, but so many of today's artist don't even >>try to justify their hedonistic excesses with a spiritual philosophy of say >>a Kandinsky. Think of Curt Cobain and the joke title "Nirvana". >>Now there is a spiritual leader without a cause! >> >> >>Namaste >>Keith Price >> >> > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:21:08 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: Chicken or Cosmic Egg? Message-ID: <0a5b90327230e18UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> Which came first the kabbalah, the SECRET DOCRTINE or some primal wisdom teaching? I guess most would go with number 3, that all esoteric teachings gain their credibility by their similarity while exoteric teachings stress the comparitve nature of religion, that is my sky daddy can beat up your sky daddy and God knows his sons put on a good fight in the Middle East, Northern Ireland and everywhere inclucing my backyard! My recent study of the kabbalah would suggest that she could have come up with much of the same stanzas by meditating on a combination of divine geometry from the schools of Pythagoras and the Neo-Platonists like Plotinus and putting in the mysticism of descent and return of the kabbalah and dressing it in quasi-Eastern vocabulary? Why do I care? Well I think the study of the Hebrew letters, their shapes, orders, names reaveal a similar BOOK OF DZYAN from Aleph as the primal all, Beth as the house of God as number e 2 or polarity, Gimel the camel is movement that comes and goes..... all the way to mem the waters of the source and Lamed as the return backward to the source and travelling back up Jacob's ladder to Aleph again. You might try it, it worked for me! Reverberation, back and forth, up and down, above and below - this is the essense of existence and above that Nothing, no movement, no mind, no boundary, no limit! Namaste Keith PRice From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 02:41:40 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Chicken or Cosmic Egg? Message-ID: In message <0a5b90327230e18UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.co m>, KeithHouston writes >Reverberation, back and forth, up and down, above and below - this is the >essense of existence and above that Nothing, no movement, no mind, no >boundary, no limit! That's about it! (Except that the Great Nothing pursueth us constantly .. joke) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:29:09 -0500 From: Frank Reitemeyer Subject: Re: Next manvantara Message-ID: <199801151529_MC2-2F6E-9CD@compuserve.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: >According to Frank Reitemeyer: > > I add: > > When is TS (Adyar) going to allow independent research and opens > "non-existing" files and diaries? Next maha-manvantara??? > >It's not that simple. Stephen Prothero, an "independent" scholar >if by that you mean non-Theosophist, got archives access for >research on The White Buddhist. That of course included Olcott's >diary, the thing I was most eager to see. When I was in Adyar >there were two other non-members of Adyar who were doing research >in the archives. All of these were on "safe" topics. I, on the >other hand, a member for some years whose manuscript was >currently submitted to TPH--Wheaton, was denied access. So was a >French researcher highly placed in the French TS. So was Edward >Hower, a novelist writing about Olcott wanting to see his >diaries, and a TSA member. So have been many others. >Bottom line is, does Radha want anyone digging into the >particular subject under consideration. If not, you can be >the most loyal and respected theosophist and it makes no >difference; you're out of luck. If so, it matters not who you >are. Considering what HPB said about how the TS *should* support >research (I'm forwarding separately to the list) the current >situation is worse than deplorable. >What's your experience with the roadblocks? >Cheers, >Paul < I asked Mrs. Burnier sometime in a letter about the letters of Judge to both Olcott and Besant contained unregocnized for the public since over hundert years. It would be helpful for the public and the Theosophical community to be allowed to see those letters to better understand the shism and other significant historical background. In a letter reply Mrs. Burnier stated that Adyar holds no such letters! But I know from several persons who were in personal contact with members of the Adyar Library Staff over many years that this letters surely exist, but the Adyar leadership fears the contents of the letters. A former leading librarian of Adyar once said that the Judge letters are not stored save in files or closets but they are in brown envelopes and rotting slowly in the damp climate... >From the newspaper a few days ago we learn that even the Vatican now attempts to open his Secret Archives after 500 years of Inquistion... Also important for historical research would be the diaries of Bishop Leadbeater. But these items are secret, too. So everyone should come to his own conclusions wether the Adyar body is a theosophical society in the spirit of the Original Programme of the Founders or is merely a sect of which H.P.B. warns in the "Key to Theosophy". Ringding Frank German Theosophical Central Archives From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:36:08 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Who put the WIT into Switzerland? Message-ID: To Alan and Keith: never ending outbreak of laughter! Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:50:37 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: A very interesting info Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980115075037.00dde5c8@mail.eden.com> I saw this on theos-talk. The info, IMHO, is of great importance/interest to many and hence I am posting it here. mkr >Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:15:07 -0500 >From: Frank Reitemeyer >Subject: Re: Theos-World W.Q.Judge's "unpublished" letters >Most of the unpublished Judge letters are in the archives of the Adyar TS and in >the archives of the Pasadena TS. The unpublished Judge letters to Olcott in the >Adyar archives, if published, would either show that Olcott's accusations >concerning Judge's letters are correct or that they are not. This is an important >issue concerning the Judge case. The Pasadena TS archives has the Olcott side of >the correspondence, but these would be of no importance in resolving this >question, unless they were made available along with the Judge side of the >correspondence. I'm personally aware of several people who have pressured Adyar >to make these letters available since the 60s, and Adyar has so far refused. One >of the people was the late Boris deZirkoff. The Pasadena TS has expressed to >Adyar a willingness to publish Olcott side of the correspondence providing Adyar >agrees to publish the Judge side. Their reasoning is that it would be a manner of >fairness that both sides should be available. >Adyar has given no official reason for being unwilling to make the Judge letters >public. >ECHOES OF THE ORIENT was published by Point Loma Publications. >JJHE Jerry, thank you so much for this important "insider" information. This information is of a kind we "normal members" are still missing in the official theosophical magazines, excerpt the independent and critical but fair High Country Theosophist of Dick Slusser. To hold back important information and prevent us members to learn and to our *own* conclusions (wether Olcott or Judge was right) is a violence against *TRUTH*. Shame on all bigwigs in the Theosophical Movement who have "Theosophy" and "H.P. Blavatsky" on their lips and in reality they act as Brahmans or Jesuits. In our local newspaper there was an significant news on Jan. 12, stating the fact that vaticanian Cardinale Joseph Ratzinger, who holds the chair of the former inquisition comittee (Sacra congretio Romanae et universalis inquisitionis seu Santci Officii) will OPEN the until then closed Secret Archives of Rome for the first time in history of the roman-catholic church!!!! What does it me to us Theosophists in this context? Does that mean that this Society, of her policy Jerry informed us so kindly now is the last and only one world movement which prefers CENSORSHIP (and one may add: excommunications)? We all should be alarmed about this sad progress towards... black magic, as H.P.B. would have prefered to say. A THEOSOPHIST is who does THEOSOPHY. Perhaps I could give a rationale for the policy of that society proclaimed herself "Theosophical". It is known among students that there exist an oral history back to the days of Judge. Some of his closest pupils explained that the "non-letters" of Judge in the Adyar archives containing some detailed prophecies from Master about Adyar: When Adyar would not return to the Original Programme of the Parent-Society (see BCW VII, 157) until a distinct period, the Masters would do certain things (perhaps suddenly new documents will arise?) with the results that "hundreds and thousends" members will stand up angery and revolt againgst Adyar. So all of us who stand fast to the Cause and the Truth should not be worry. Time and karma will work for us. And for others time will running out. It's just 23 month up to 2000.... And today, the birthday of GdeP is just the right time to remember what this great soul had to say: "So then, here is your check against the unlimited and ungoverned introduction into our beloved Theosophical Movement of corrupting or disintegrating influences, of hunters for position and place, power, and kudos: the fact that Teachers exist and can be reached by those who prove themselves worthy, and that each one of you can gain all that such a Teacher has or will ever have by going within and above yourself, looking within and following the teaching, and then your hearts will be at peace with your fellow-man; you will then have courage to tell him the truth if needs be, because your own mind will see, and your brain will be cleared of the fogs of deceptive thought." - GdeP: Messages to Conventions, p. 51, Point Loma Publications. Love and Peace, Ringding Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:28:39 -0500 From: Frank Reitemeyer Subject: WW II Message-ID: <199801151529_MC2-2F6E-9BB@compuserve.com> >>MKR wrote: >On reading the posts on the developments in Indonesia, the following came >to my mind. some may be interested. >During the WW I and WW II, the Theosophical Leaders were discussing about >the war being between the white forces and black forces and supported the >Allies. >Krishnaji was living in the USA when the US got involved in the war. He was >asked to help the war efforts and he refused. He refused even to get >involved in any civilian capacity supporting the war. He appeared before a >Government Board which reviews these cases and gave a six page >justification why he would not participate or support. In the end, the >Board told him to go back to India, since he was Indian Citizen. He told >the board he would gladly return if they could arrange for his >transportation. While the transportation was being arranged, he was asked >to stay in Ojai and not to give any talks. No transportation was available >till the war ended. >At a time when everyone was in favor of supporting the War, Krishnaji stood >very firm in his opposition to all wars did so till the end of his life. >mkr >Just so, MKR. And Krishnaji said, as I read in a German book some years >ago, in 1919 that the Great War was unwise und Wilson's policy unjust with >the result of a new Great War in 20 years... And WWII began in 1939. Any >questions? By the by, there is another interesting look from the point of >view of occult mathematics. As many serious students of Theosophy believe, >with the birth of HPB - our mother - a new era began. On the other hand >many New Agers believe the Age of Aquarius began in 1900, others say in >1960, others have yet another date. Contradiction or paradox? A look in the >Occult Glossary by Dr. Gottfried de Purucker may assist. We learn that >there is not only a single cycle but many cycles overlapping, and each >cycle has a sunrise, a noon and a sunset. These starts and ends are 10% >from the time of the cycle. So 10 % from 2.160 years (as it is be said for >a "day of the world") is 216 years. Add this 216 years to 1831 and you have >the begin of the Age of Aquarius sui generis in 2047. The half of 216 is >108. Add 108 to 1831 and you have the half-time, the lowest point of the >time of this our transitional period in 1939, marking the beginning of >WWII, a period of the greatest and most terrible slaughter in known history >of mankind with billions of tons of TNT. Chance or not? In this contect the >several hints and warnings of GdeP among the ES or other degrees in the >early 1930's (!) about the upcoming WWII, as cited in The Eclectic >Theosophist, may be of some interest for us unveiling the deeper reasons >for the activities of our Theosophical teachers. >Ringding Frank >of mankind with billions of tons of TNT. Chance or not? In this contect the >several hints and warnings of GdeP among the ES or other degrees in the >early 1930's (!) about the upcoming WWII, as cited in The Eclectic >Theosophist, may be of some interest for us unveiling the deeper reasons >for the activities of our Theosophical teachers. > >I recall that K openly discussed in his discussions and lectures about the >inequities created by the WWI and how a new war inevitable (I am quoting >from memory and need to look up for specifics) while TS circles may have >discussed this in "secrecy" of ES or other degrees. It looks like anyone >who had a clear thinking and vision could see the war coming. >mkr No untrue, but we should not intermix to different things. K's openly discussing about WW are not new inventions from him since H.P.B. discussed this points openly some decades before. See "Theos. Glossary" p. 309, last sentence: "the next Terreur, which will affext all Europe when it comes, and not one country alone". More details can be found in Jean Overton Fuller's "Blavatsky and her teachers", Ch. 78: "Prevision of the great world wars," in Sylvia Cranstons "HPB", Ch. 7, p. 344: "Previson of the World Wars?" and elsewhere in the BCW. On the other hand there was detailed information in the ES under the leadership of KT and later of GdeP to prevent WWI and WWII, a fact which is known to all who are aware of the history of Point Loma. These details, of which we have some hints in GdeP's "Wind of the spirit" or several articles in "The Eclectic Theosophist" are of a different kind which could be recognized not as merely intellectual speculations or indefferent feelings but as facts from a teacher who knows what is and what is to do. I come to the conclusion that WWI and WWII could have been prevented if the Theosophical community had been stand together to lead the mankind into a loftier stage. Ringding Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:14:17 -0500 From: Frank Reitemeyer Subject: Commemorating GdeP's birth Message-ID: <199801151614_MC2-2F70-E1BE@compuserve.com> Jan, 15 Today, when several Theosophists are commemorating the birthday of Dr. Gottfried de Purucker, leader of the Point Loma Theosophical Society from 1929-1942, it should be the right time for a little meditation about his heartful Fraternization Movement he started in 1929 and of her he spoke on several occasions at various places, even in addresses and lectures before lodges belonging to the Adyar Society. We quote a paragraph from an Address before the Wirral Lodge (Adyar) in Birkenhead, England, at their invitation, January, 5, 1933: "I am trying to bring out about a reunification of the disjecta membra of the Theosophical Movement, i.e., of the various Theosophical Societies, so as to form a compact organic entity to do battle with the forces of obscrurantism and of evil in the world, just as there was one organic entity, the T.S., in the time of H.P.B.; and I believe that this will come to pass, but perhaps not in my lifetime. I may be called to give an account of what I have done before the thing comes to pass; but verily, I believe with all my soul that this Theosophical unity will some day be an accomplished fact. Now we of Point Loma hold certain doctrines and hold them with tenacity; we love these doctrines more than life, because to us they are Theosophy, all of it pure Theosophy, but not all of Theosophy openly expressed. We of Point Loma don't like other strange doctrines, added on to these ancient Wisdom-Teachings of the gods. We don't like psychic visions added to the Message of the Masters. But for pity's sake is the Theosophical Movement not broad enough to allow its component members, its component fellowships, i.e., the different Theosophical Societies which compose it, to believe what they please, and to honor what they may choose to honor? If not, then the Theosophical Movement has degenerated; and personally I don't believe that it has degenerated. I take you Brothers of Adyar: you, I believe, teach and accept certain things that I personally cannot accept as Theosophy. But do I say that you are ethically wrong in holding to these your beliefs and int eaching them, and do I say that you have no right to do so? Never. My attitude has always been: give fellow-Theosophists a full chance; if what they profess and believe as truth is true, it will prove itself to be true; if what they profess and believe is wrong, time will uproot it. We of Point Loma ask for the same kindly tolerance." -- quoted from: Messages to Conventions, Point Loma Publications, San Diego, CA. Isn't it worth for us, wether we belong to that or another or to none TS, to meditate about this statement? Isn't it time to find peace among the Theosophical Movement and forget and forgive? Should we not be clever enough to unite in a state of spiritual thought and live Theosophy as Brothers under Brothers? Would like to get your responses on this list. Ringding Frank From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:23:19 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Commemorating GdeP's birth Message-ID: <6EevYTAHarv0Ewn6@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199801151614_MC2-2F70-E1BE@compuserve.com>, Frank Reitemeyer writes >Isn't it worth for us, wether we belong to that or another or to none TS, >to meditate about this statement? Isn't it time to find peace among the >Theosophical Movement and forget and forgive? Yes it is, but while we may forgive, we should never forget, for others will come and try to make the same mistakes of power-seeking and exclusivness. > Should we not be clever >enough to unite in a state of spiritual thought and live Theosophy as >Brothers under Brothers? This is why some of us founded Theosophy International, where no brother or sister is under any other. > >Would like to get your responses on this list. Done! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:37:03 -0600 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: THEOS-NEWS digest 142 Message-ID: <199801161650.LAA17467@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: theos-news@vnet.net > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: THEOS-NEWS digest 142 > Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 2:36 PM > > >From the newspaper a few days ago we learn that even the Vatican now > attempts to open his Secret Archives after 500 years of Inquistion... > Also important for historical research would be the diaries of Bishop > Leadbeater. But these items are secret, too. I found out which way the wind was blowing when Radha visited Olcott a couple of years ago. Here main point of a Sunday 9 am speech, was "Members are supposed to work and contribute to the Society, NOT criticize it." Those words sound like something of a papal edict rather than the enlightened head of the International Theosophical Society. Nor would do I think it is very appealing to any prospective newcomers. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:11:51 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980116001151.006967b0@mail.eden.com> Can any one help? I saw this on alt.theosophy. mkr ======================================= >Subject: French >From: "M.P. Abeme" >Date: 1998/01/15 >Newsgroups: alt.theosophy Hello I'm looking for a french site about theosophy for my cameroon girlfriend Any ideas? Thanks George From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:10:14 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: WW II Message-ID: <4ab6ae05.34bf07d8@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-15 15:34:39 EST, you write: > I come to >the conclusion that WWI and WWII could have been prevented if the >Theosophical community had been stand together to lead the mankind into a >loftier stage. > > Wouldn't have made an ounce of difference. The French still would have wanted revenge for 1870, the Pan Slavs still would have assassinated the Archduke and the war would have gone on as scheduled. It isn't who is speaking, it is who is listening that counts and no one would have listened. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:12:31 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Commemorating GdeP's birth Message-ID: And let us all be thankful for the good karma that prevented us from being named Gottfried dePurucker. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:37:22 -0500 From: carson@blavatsky.org Subject: French site Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980116143722.006c2510@mail.webspan.net> There is a French web site maintained by the Paris Lodge of United Lodge of Theosophists at: http://www.theosophie.asso.fr/ This pointer can also be found at http://www.blavatsky.org/gen/roadmap.htm Reed Carson >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:31:00 -0600 >From: M K Ramadoss >Can any one help? I saw this on alt.theosophy. > >mkr >======================================= > >Subject: French >From: "M.P. Abeme" >Date: 1998/01/15 >Newsgroups: alt.theosophy > >Hello >I'm looking for a french site about theosophy for my cameroon >girlfriend >Any ideas? >Thanks >George > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:24:53 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: To mkr and others: In Finland they say "today I am going to have my today-truth, tomorrow I am going to have another one". Queer? I don't know but I wonder how thruth could be defined. Anybody able to help me? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:11:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980116161100.00e2006c@mail.eden.com> At 10:28 AM 1/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >To mkr and others: In Finland they say "today I am >going to have my today-truth, tomorrow I am going to >have another one". Queer? I don't know but I wonder >how thruth could be defined. Anybody able to help me? > >Nicole > > It is easy. If truth is static then it stays the same. If truth is dynamic, then today-truth is different from tomorrow-truth. It may have some thing to do with we ourselves growing. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:26:09 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: <80c68378.34bfa644@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-16 10:28:23 EST, you write: >To mkr and others: In Finland they say "today I am >going to have my today-truth, tomorrow I am going to >have another one". Queer? I don't know but I wonder >how thruth could be defined. Anybody able to help me? > >Nicole I suppose it depends on what they drink in Finland. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:56:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Criticism Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980116125632.016c67a4@mail.eden.com> I am responding here on theos-l since this issue of what members are expected to do is likely to generate discussion. Recently I found out that TSA is not sending out a clear msg about the real mission of TS (as envisaged by the Real Founders) especially to the new members. I will be posting a separate msg on this. In the meanwhile, when the King is not wearing any clothes someone has to say so for the good of everyone. mkr > From: theos-news@vnet.net > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: THEOS-NEWS digest 142 > Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 2:36 PM > > >From the newspaper a few days ago we learn that even the Vatican now > attempts to open his Secret Archives after 500 years of Inquistion... > Also important for historical research would be the diaries of Bishop > Leadbeater. But these items are secret, too. I found out which way the wind was blowing when Radha visited Olcott a couple of years ago. Here main point of a Sunday 9 am speech, was "Members are supposed to work and contribute to the Society, NOT criticize it." Those words sound like something of a papal edict rather than the enlightened head of the International Theosophical Society. Nor would do I think it is very appealing to any prospective newcomers. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:44:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Adept letter to Judge Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980116134436.00f3ecac@mail.eden.com> The following part is very timely, today after more than 100 years. Thanks for your post. ====================== You know that any school founded amongst you would at once become a school of practical magic working in order to produce results in matter. This is quite true. The reason is that even those who are most in earnest among you have no true psychic aspirations. ======================= In the light of the above, when I recently saw a statement by the National President of TSA (Adyar) I could not believe my eyes. >From the early days, the Adepts have repeatedly told Sinnett and others that the primary mission of TS is to establish a nucleus of Universal Brotherhood (Sisterhood/Siblinghood) and not to start a school for occultists/psychics. In the letter published in Quest (1997) Holiday Gift (Book) Catalog the National President states: "The books and audios in this catalog come from the publishing arm of the Theosophical Society, a nondenominational organization devoted to helping its members: realize their inner potentials and seek out the mysteries of the universe" followed by two other items which deals with the Second and First object of TS in that order. This, in the additional context of an article published in 1996 about the *inner* *aims* of TS, can be misunderstood by the public and novices and attract droves of selfish men and women [and their money/purchasing power] (in the present day New Age culture) and this could destroy TS as an organization. [In all my readings over last several decades, I have never run into these inner aims anywhere.] Due to the very serious nature of the fundamental issues involved, I have drawn the attention of both the National and International President of TS (Adyar) and also requested the Board of Directors of TSA to address the issue of clearly telling the public and the members about the mission of TS as envisaged by the Real Founders. I believe that no elected official of any TS organization has the power to rearrange the order of the objects of TS or try not to very clearly and unambiguously tell everyone what is the most critical single Object of TS. mkr At 08:52 AM 1/16/1998 -0800, you wrote: > > > LEAVES OF THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY > > [The following is from a copy which is held in the > archives of the Theosophical Headquarters at Point Loma > and together with the heading is reproduced verbatim et > literatim.] > >Copy of a letter received in one from H.P.B. postmarked May 10th, 1887. > > You say you are a "sad case" and yet you have in your heart so >great a love for humanity and for the individual members of the >race that you are haunted night and day by thoughts of their >suffering, ignorance and pain. It is such as you who hold the human >race from falling into that bottomless pit of emptiness where >despair is forgotten and where effort is unknown. > My dear friend, for that you are, being truly the friend of >all who are looking for the light, do not forget that you are >living in a very dark and sad Maya of intensely physical life. The >whole busy continent of America is eaten up by materialism and when >an effort is made towards psychic life it results only in dragging >that psychic life into matter where it dies as a volatile gas >escapes in the hands of one who is not expert. The sadness of this >fact colors your letter. You know that any school founded amongst >you would at once become a school of practical magic working in >order to produce results in matter. This is quite true. The reason >is that even those who are most in earnest among you have no true >psychic aspirations. Remedy this in yourself and endeavor to remedy >it in others by word and example. > Desire no results which are forms of power. Desire only, in >your efforts, to reach nearer to the center of life (which is the >same in the Universe and in yourself) which makes you careless >whether you are strong or weak, learned or unlearned. It is your >divinity; it is the divinity we all share. But its existence is not >credited by those who look only for money or power or success in >material effort. (I include intellect in matter.) > Lean I pray you in thought and feeling away from these >external problems which you have written down in your letter; draw >on the breath of the great life throbbing in us all and let faith >(which is unlearned knowledge) carry you through your life as a >bird flies in the air -- undoubtingly. Only remember one thing -- >when once you fling yourself on the great life of Nature, the force >that keeps the world in motion and our pulses beating and which has >within it, in its heart, a supreme and awful power -- once having >done that, you can never again claim back your life. You must let >yourself swing with the motions of the spheres. You must live for >other men and with them; not for or with yourself. You will do >this, I am sure. > >[signed with outline of triangle] > >[Theosophical Forum, Vol. VI #9, May 15, 1935, p. 232] >*************** > >-- >Nicholas <> am455@lafn.org <> Los Angeles From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:00:34 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: WELCOME! Message-ID: Theosophy International welcomes Arturo Miranda (Not yet on mailinglist) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:48:33 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Commemorating GdeP's birth Message-ID: In message , Drpsionic writes >And let us all be thankful for the good karma that prevented us from being >named Gottfried dePurucker. Or Cosimano ? > Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:52:03 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Fw: Presidential Proclamation of Religious Freedom Day Message-ID: <01ISGBR2FLKC91FV5I@InfoAve.Net> FYI only.... ---------- > From: UUAWO > To: CyberNewsletter of the UUA Washington Office > Subject: FYI: Presidential Proclamation of Religious Freedom Day > Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 4:48 PM > > RELIGIOUS FREEDOM DAY, 1998 > > - - - - - - - > > BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA > > A PROCLAMATION > > > The right to worship according to one's own conscience is > essential to our dignity as human beings. Whatever our religious > beliefs, they represent the essence of our personal values and > cannot be dictated to us. Recognizing this truth, our founders > made religious liberty the first freedom guaranteed in the Bill > of Rights. They wisely understood as well that in protecting the > free exercise of religion, we must also prohibit the > establishment of religion by the state. > > Among the early European settlers who came to our shores > were many seeking to escape the religious compulsion and > persecution they had endured in the lands of their birth. > William Penn, Roger Williams, and many others would strive to > make their settlements havens for freedom of conscience, laying > the foundation for the great tradition of religious liberty that > would ultimately find expression in the First Amendment to the > Constitution. Since those early days, our continuing aspiration > has been to banish lingering prejudice and increase religious > understanding and respect among our people. > > Today, millions of people of different faiths call America > home. The churches, synagogues, temples, mosques, and other > houses of worship they have built have become centers of > community life and service and a source of strength for our > Nation. As our country becomes increasingly diverse, we must > reaffirm our efforts to reach out to one another and to see past > our differences to the values we hold in common. > > My Administration is striving to enhance this climate of > acceptance and respect, bringing people together across lines of > faith. Two years ago, with the help of a broad coalition of > religious and civic leaders, we created guidelines clarifying the > nature of religious expression permitted in our public schools > and reaffirming that America's young people do not have to leave > their religious beliefs at the schoolhouse door. With the help > of that same coalition, I issued additional guidelines last > August to reinforce the right of religious expression in the > Federal workplace. Building on America's long-standing commit- > ment to freedom and fairness, these guidelines will ensure that > Federal employees may engage in personal religious expres-sion to > the greatest extent possible, consistent with workplace > efficiency and the requirements of law. The guidelines also > clarify that Federal employers may not discriminate in employment > on the basis of religion and that an agency must reasonably > accommodate employees' religious practices. > > On Religious Freedom Day this year, as we celebrate and > cherish this precious right we enjoy as Americans, we must not > forget others who are less fortunate. Throughout the world, in > many lands, too many people still suffer and die for their > beliefs, and lives, families, and communities are torn apart by > old hatreds and prejudices. We must continue to proclaim the > fundamental right of all peoples to believe and worship according > to their own conscience, to affirm their beliefs openly and > freely, and to practice their faith without fear or intimidation. > The priceless gift we have inherited from past generations will > only grow in value as we share it with others. > > NOW, THEREFORE, I, WILLIAM J. CLINTON, President of the > United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me > by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby > proclaim January 16, 1998, as Religious Freedom Day. I call upon > the people of the United States to observe this day with > appropriate ceremonies, activities, and programs, and I urge all > Americans to reaffirm their devotion to the fundamental > principles of religious freedom and religious tolerance. > > IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this > fifteenth day of January, in the year of our Lord nineteen > hundred and ninety-eight, and of the Independence of the United > States of America the two hundred and twenty-second. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:20:18 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Commemorating GdeP's birth Message-ID: <4ab83a72.34c05bb4@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-16 22:39:29 EST, you write: >In message , Drpsionic > writes >>And let us all be thankful for the good karma that prevented us from being >>named Gottfried dePurucker. > >Or Cosimano ? >> >Alan :-) Or the Bain of our existence? :-) Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:44:40 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Art Message-ID: <34C07D80.287D@withoutwalls.com> >Keith wrote > >I appreciate Mark K's comments on art, maybe because he IS an artist, which >I am not. I feel that art is definitely a way to access emotional, >psychological, and spiritual realms in the way the spoken word can never >do. Exalted (or debased) states of consciousness can be evoked in the >viewer. The art of the ancients was practically ALL art of a spiritual >nature starting with the cave painting and sculptures of our most distant >ancestors. Thanks Keith. I agree with you that visual art can tap into things that words can't touch, at least not in the same way. As far as ancient art goes, depending on what art you are refering to, I would agree that a lot of it was indeed intended to serve fetishistic, totemistic, ritualistic or magical aims. I don't know if I'd go as far in characterizing the majority of it as "spiritual" in the way you seem willing to do, but a lot of it certainly was. Art historians don't really know the intentions of the cave painters. Their scholarship is empirical, but their conclusions about the use and intent of the cave art is admittedly speculative. They confess that they will probably never know for certain the painter's attitude towards the work from physical evidence alone, but offer their theories in relation to assumptions about other documented historical and currently existing hunting cultures. It is a fascinating study. The work has great power and beauty. It stirs deep wells within us that no art created for contemporary museums or galleries can do in the same way. >I have been rereading works on the Golden Mean proportion in books on Sacred >Geometry. The ancient greeks discoverd mathematical formulas for expressing >the order and design of our world as expressed in two dimensional or plane >geometric expressions. > >Temples in Greece and even Egypt use formula to express this divine beauty >and invoke the gods and archetypes themselves in glyph and stone. There are a couple of great exposes on this topic, written specifically for artists, by Jay Hambridge under the topic of "Dynamic Symmetry." >Ancient art was often stylized and unrealistic because they were expressing >inner states and other worlds. ..or because they had only figured out a few schemes for representation based on other ways of organizing ideas of form and pictorial space. >The Renaisance gave us perspective and >brought the angels themselves down to the earth plane and put them in Mary's >bedroom in an uncomfortably realistic fashion. Nobody believed those wings. >They were too real! A lot of devout people in the Renaisance did believe those wings. Many surviving popular conceptions of angels in western culture owe their form to those paintings. >Zen art is an interesting attempt to do more with less and get enlightenment >with a few brushstrokes. I have learned to appreciate modern art and the >truncated, distorted, forms that persist in the commericial art and logos of modern >states and corporations. Me too. >You know, people used to believe in the divine right of kings and that >priests really could contact the gods and give prophecy. These things are >still true today but it is so hard to believe. Most people chase the most >devasting of illusions and art forms commonly called the "dollar". Talk >about MAYA! It isn't so much an illusion as collusion. I will believe >those green sheets are worth something and kill myself chasing them if you will. I believe that, in the ideal economy of the heart, currency is equivalent to love made visible thru work (at least for me). >We had a talk at our lodge in Houston by a lady from New York who is a >theosophist and artist (not uncommon really). She spoke on the spirituality >behind the heiroglyphs. She pointed out that the vulture (so repulsive to >many) is actually a bird of high spiritual significance to the Egyptians as >are the dung rolling beetles or scarabs. > >Beauty is in the eye, as they say, but so many of today's artist don't even >try to justify their hedonistic excesses with a spiritual philosophy of say >a Kandinsky. Think of Curt Cobain and the joke title "Nirvana". >Now there is a spiritual leader without a cause! Most art is just like most everything else: mediocre. If theosophy postulates catagories of humanity like "average, advanced, approaching the path, on the path of initiation, etc," is it suprising to find art and artists representing each of them? Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:08:30 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: on benefits of self-consciousness Message-ID: <01b595825051318UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Stan Tenen of the Meru foundation has some interesting ideas in this quoatation that I would like to add to the discussion of the self-consciousness (and the develpment of sacred alphabets): After all, life on Earth reaches one further step of organization. Human beings (and perhaps a few other creatures such as some primates, elephants and the cetacea) are not only living animals – whose living neg-entropic organization comes from the contrast of the bright physical sun in the dark sky – but we are also conscious and aware of ourselves. Humans have a special hand with an opposable thumb marking our self-reflexive awareness and – some say consequently – we form and use language. Following Penrose's argument, where does our "hyper" self-aware consciousness get its organizing information? What "hand" "informs" our special, "higher" human consciousness? Does there exist or can we hypothesize a "higher" "hyper" contrast than between our star and the sky? Conceptually, at least, we can. The contrast between our physical sun and the sky can be idealized and extended by considering, at least in principle, an even higher, brighter source – a source of ALL-THERE-IS. If the sun is a very bright, yet finite source, very far away, but not infinitely far away, then we could investigate the consequences of an infinite source at an infinite distance from us. We can define a model of an exquisitely singular and omnipotent source. As with the Fourier Transform – musical harmonics ("music of the spheres") model, our extension of Professor Penrose's High Contrast leads us to an infinite pulse. (It is interesting to note that Kabbalists understand this principle of highest contrast as the paradox of God withdrawing or contracting (tzimtzum) and then projecting.) In this case the pulse is an infinitely energetic Singularity infinitely far away. This then could be the "hyper" source of our human self-aware consciousness. This conceptually farthest, brightest source is also the conceptually highest information, lowest entropy source. It is the "hyper-neg-entropic" source of universal consciousness that corresponds to the One-God. By (Abraham's) definition this is the most "high-contrast" source. MODELS OF WHOLENESS, SINGULARITY AND HIGHEST CONTRAST How are we to model this ultimate, exquisite, unknowable UNITY representing our unique definition of the Singularity of the One-Living-God? Is there an entirely abstract – non-idolatrous – mathematical model that incorporates Singularity, Uniqueness, Self-organization, Universality, Infinitude, Elegance and Simplicity? What is the most elegant and exquisite model of "highest contrast"? Could this same model also represent the meditational process or the path and goal of the "Hero's Journey?" In The Laws of Form, mathematician G. Spencer-Brown proposes the "mark of distinction" archetypally distinguishing INSIDE from OUTSIDE as a definition of maximal contrast. Mathematicians have shown that all of formal logic can be derived from G. Spencer-Brown's "mark of distinction." The following is from The Laws of Form, p. xxix (emphasis added): "The theme of this book is that a universe comes into being when a space is severed or taken apart. The skin of a living organism cuts off an outside from an inside. So does the circumference of a circle in a plane. By tracing the way we represent such a severance, we can begin to reconstruct, with an accuracy and coverage that appear almost uncanny, the basic forms underlying linguistic, mathematical, physical, and biological science, and can begin to see how the familiar laws of our own experience follow inexorably from the original act of severance. " Keith: I think these ideas are very suggestive of the fact that humanity wherever it may be found (including other globes or dimensions, planes etc). would develop along the lines of our current life-wave (the totality of evolution as discussed in the SD). This means that man would develop language, tools and technology, and even religion based on the remanents of the "image" of God in his bodies, that is the body and the psyche. Thus the shadow of the human hand and sacred geometries would inspire alphabets everywhere. The nature and shape of the human mouth would give us the same sounds and consanants. The archetypes and dream images would inspire stories of the "gods" and angelic beings. The very nature of letter and number inspires a scheme of emanation of the 0 and the line or 1, dividing into 2, movement as 3, 4 plane geometry of the number 4 etc. The Hebrew alphabet is especially interesting because it provides the shadowgrams of the hand as a Jacob's ladder of the spark descending from the all, Aleph, dividing into Beth, the house of God and coming and going on the camel of Gimel on down through the source of waters Mem and Lamed is learning to turn back and reascend up to the all, Aleph, again. The abiltity to refect is essential for life to use high states of negentropy to their own advantage and the mind does the same by reflecting on itsef and the world. This very reflexivity may be a key to the nature of the manifest world. This stilling of the reverberation of sound, mind and light may give us a glimpse into the nature of the All. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:00:36 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: The Esoteric School Message-ID: Greetings All! hope everyone's new year is unfolding well ... I'm in the middle of a little research project just now, and wondering whether there might be anyone on the list with some information I'm looking for .... I'm seeking (as part of a larger project) to discern the nature and degree to which the "Esoteric School" has integrated its members into the current leadership at the Wheaton Headquarters of the American Section, and to what degree, if any, plans or intentions for the TS general membership and organization are formulated in private interactions within the ES power structure. I understand that apparently people's membership in the ES, as well as (presumably) any such behind-the-scenes planning, are supposed to be kept "secret". I also understand, however, that among past and even current ES members there is a good deal of discontent . Should there then be those among the ES membership that wish to speak to me privately (your confidentiality will be completely respected) about the topics mentioned above, please contact me by email at , by snail mail at P.O. Box 7373, Missoula, MT, 59807, or by phone at (406)-721-7499. Many Thanks, -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:19:15 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: "It is easy. If truth is static then it stays the same. If truth is dynamic, then today-truth is different from tomorrow-truth. It may have some thing to do with we ourselves growing. mkr" What happens if truth is static and dynamic at the same time and there even is a past-truth? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:26:28 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: "I suppose it depends on what they drink in Finland. Chuck the Heretic" Laughter - do you mean thruth can be imported? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 06:04:19 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980119060419.00b98850@mail.eden.com> At 05:26 AM 1/19/1998 -0500, you wrote: >"It is easy. If truth is static then it stays the same. If truth is dynamic, >then today-truth is different from tomorrow-truth. It may have some thing to >do with we ourselves growing. > >mkr" > >What happens if truth is static and dynamic at the same time and there >even is a past-truth? > >Nicole > > Good question. It is possible that truth may be beyond time and space, in which case static or dynamic may be inappropriate. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 03:28:19 -0500 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: <34C30EA3.7587@dmv.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > At 05:26 AM 1/19/1998 -0500, you wrote: > >"It is easy. If truth is static then it stays the same. If truth is dynamic, > >then today-truth is different from tomorrow-truth. It may have some thing to > >do with we ourselves growing. > > > >mkr" > > > >What happens if truth is static and dynamic at the same time and there > >even is a past-truth? > > > >Nicole > > > > > Good question. It is possible that truth may be beyond time and space, in > which case static or dynamic may be inappropriate. > > mkr Truth is the completely acurate peception of an 'object' which for our minds we can call a surface. Any consideration of more than one 'object' (in other words propositions among true objects) goes beyond truth and into the area of "knowledge". The true nature of reality is determined by a chaotic process, which may be as simple as the interaction between two scales which may satisfy as a model for metaphysical thought, but we do know that our physical universe is of such a paradoxical nature, requiring description by two theories, special and general relativity. Our "knowledge" informs us that understanding the world is not given by a single model which would provide a simple seamless logic. Instead it is apparently a complex interaction of at least two very different models. Sounds like mathematical chaos to me, and if it walks like a duck; via duck! Maybe, aside from truth and knowledge, meaning is rooted in paradox which is rooted in the existance two or more interacting things. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:05:40 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti litigation Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980119130540.01378cc4@mail.eden.com> At 10:21 AM 1/19/1998 EST, Lmhem111 wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-18 21:12:34 EST, you write: > ><< It was a follow up to a litigation that went on for 18 years between > > (1) the old Krishnamurti Trusts (and Trustees) vs > > (2) Krishnamurti and the K Foundation of America and its Trustees. > >> > >At the core, this sounds like it has something to do with the split between >Rajagopal and Krishnamurti the ramifications of which entered the personal >level. The core of the problem is very simple -- Large sums of money and very valuable real estate holdings around the world. Nothing to do with K's philosophy or what K was doing. Here is a summary out of the top of my head. All the money and property were donated by a lot of people for a single purpose. To Krishnamurti to travel, speak, teach and publish. They were held by the tax exempt non profit trusts created for this purpose. None belonged to any of the trustees. When Krishnamurti wanted to know what is going on in the trusts, he was not permitted access by the Trustees of which Rajagopal was the President/Chairman. BTW one of the Trustees on the trusts is currently on the BOD of TSA. Then a situation arose in the US and India which effectively prevented Krishnamurti from using the buildings donated for his work. When all else failed, K formed a new charitable trust - Krishnamurti Foundation of America. KFA along with California Attorney General sued the Trustees of K trusts and Trusts themselves to recover the property from the old trusts. K was not a plaintiff in this suit. The Attorney General became a co-plaintiff because of the large sums of money and very valuable world-wide holding of real estate belonging to CA charitable tax exempt trusts. The litigation involved several lawsuits and lasted 18 years and was finally settled only after K died. One interesting law suit involved recovering the possession of a large building and land donated to K. It is across the river from Adyar TS HQ and it was where first time I attended K's lecture in 1965. He was subsequently prevented from staying there and lecture. A new K Trust was formed in India and it sued for the recovery of the building so that K can continue to stay and lecture there. The K Trusts in the US which were led by Rajagopal were defendants and the litigation dragged on. The trustees of this new Trust included one who later became President of India, another who later became the Attorney General of India and two were retired Chief Justices of the Madras High court. Guess who was the secretary of the Trust? Mrs. Radha Burnier, presently the International President of TS (Adyar). The sad thing about the whole litigation is that may be up to $500,000 dollars was wasted on high priced attorneys. It was money that was donated by good hearted folks trying to help K spread his message. Instead money ended up in the pockets of attorneys. I hope this gives an overview of the litigation. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:20:38 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Esoteric School Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980119132038.01119390@mail.eden.com> You may want to look into the famous and very rare book by Ernest Wood -- Is This Theosophy? There is a short description of how politics was handled by CJ and CWL. I do not know if any thing has changed in the last four decades. May be you should post the msg on theos-talk as well, if you have not done it yet. MKR PS: since this book is extremely rare, if anyone is interested I can post the relevant excerpt(s). ================================================= At 02:07 AM 1/19/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings All! hope everyone's new year is unfolding well ... > I'm in the middle of a little research project just now, and wondering >whether there might be anyone on the list with some information I'm looking >for .... > I'm seeking (as part of a larger project) to discern the nature and >degree to which the "Esoteric School" has integrated its members into the >current leadership at the Wheaton Headquarters of the American Section, and >to what degree, if any, plans or intentions for the TS general membership >and organization are formulated in private interactions within the ES power >structure. > I understand that apparently people's membership in the ES, as well as >(presumably) any such behind-the-scenes planning, are supposed to be kept >"secret". I also understand, however, that among past and even current ES >members there is a good deal of discontent . Should there then be those >among the ES membership that wish to speak to me privately (your >confidentiality will be completely respected) about the topics mentioned >above, please contact me by email at , by snail mail >at P.O. Box 7373, Missoula, MT, 59807, or by phone at (406)-721-7499. > Many Thanks, -JRC > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:19:00 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: <47313241.34c39916@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-19 05:32:49 EST, you write: >Laughter - do you mean thruth can be imported? > >Nicole Certainly. And using the cut and paste feature on Windows I import it between programs all the time. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:00:57 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Secret Doctrine Conference Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Dear friend, I invite you to view our website and read about some of the details of an upcoming Secret Doctrine Conference. Feel free to attach a link to our website (if appropriate) or post the announcement for others to see. Webpage Address: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/astrycker/ We are currently asking for those interested in presenting a paper to submit a title and abstract (deadline: January 31, 1998). The meeting is scheduled for next May 21-24, 1998, in Oklahoma City, OK. We welcome your support in whatever form we can get it. Sincerely, Arden Strycker, Secretary Midwest Federation, TSA (Adyar) astrycker@compuserve.com --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:56:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Litigation Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980119195632.01124220@mail.eden.com> At 06:34 PM 1/19/1998 EST, SAGESCROWN wrote: >mkr > >I think that I neglected to >include the remark... >this sounds like every >other commercial >corrupt organization >in the world today. What? > >Sage As a matter of justice and fairness, I think that we should take a more objective and charitable view. Much of the info on the litigation was shrowded in secrecy for a long time and it is very likely that very few people outside the parties involved knew much of the details. This perhaps includes most of the current leadership of TSA. Only in recent years info on the litigation started trickling out. That is how I happened to accidentally find out the connection and initially was surprised. After I found out that one of the trustees of K Trusts involved in the litigation is an *appointed* officer of the national board of TSA and a Trustee of TIT which manages all the investments of TSA funds, I brought it to the attention of the leadershiip of TSA. TSA leadership tried to dismiss it as a inter-necine affair having nothing to do with TSA. On further follow-up with the elected members of the BOD, the response appears to be that they just focused on (1) what the person had done for TS and Theosophy and (2) the final legal document settling the litigation between KFA and the Trusts/Trustees of the old K Trusts. The legal settlement documents are meant to do one and only thing -- terminate the litigation, which it did. I also did not see any indication or evidence of TSA BOD taking interest or time to independently investigate the facts and details of the litigation based on documented info. If they had done it, they will have a better understanding and flavor of the litigation. It also would have put in perspective the huge costs (though legal) expended by the parties in the litigation which wasted considerable charitable donor funds benefitting the lawyers representing the parties instead of being used for K's work and teachings. I continue to formally follow up with the TSA BOD in the hope they will see that no one needs to be afraid of Truth and ultimately decide to find out documented details. By continuing supporting the appointed officer, each and every member of the BOD including the current leadership has a serious responsibility. The issue is likely to be brought up when any of them run for National/International offices in the future. When further litigation details trickle out, no one is going to look good in the eyes of membership who are now in the dark. Also the issue is not likely to go away easily. So we will have to wait and see. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:59:59 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Adept letter to Judge Message-ID: <34C4051F.B6D88D62@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > Due to the very serious nature of the fundamental issues involved, I have > drawn the attention of both the National and International President of TS > (Adyar) and also requested the Board of Directors of TSA to address the > issue of clearly telling the public and the members about the mission of TS > as envisaged by the Real Founders. > > I believe that no elected official of any TS organization has the power to > rearrange the order of the objects of TS or try not to very clearly and > unambiguously tell everyone what is the most critical single Object of TS. Look up "Theosophical Society" in the index to the collected writings of HPB. You will find exactly what John was talking about, and not at all hidden. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:09:39 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Esoteric School Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980119200939.00f8fb8c@mail.eden.com> At 08:32 PM 1/19/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In message <3.0.3.32.19980119132038.01119390@mail.eden.com>, >M K Ramadoss writes >>You may want to look into the famous and very rare book by Ernest Wood -- >>Is This Theosophy? There is a short description of how politics was handled >>by CJ and CWL. I do not know if any thing has changed in the last four >>decades. >>MKR >> >>PS: since this book is extremely rare, if anyone is interested I can post >>the relevant excerpt(s). > >Yes please! > >Alan Thanks Alan, will do so ASAP. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:20:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Adept letter to Judge Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980119202052.0077ec58@mail.eden.com> At 09:17 PM 1/19/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> Due to the very serious nature of the fundamental issues involved, I have >> drawn the attention of both the National and International President of TS >> (Adyar) and also requested the Board of Directors of TSA to address the >> issue of clearly telling the public and the members about the mission of TS >> as envisaged by the Real Founders. >> >> I believe that no elected official of any TS organization has the power to >> rearrange the order of the objects of TS or try not to very clearly and >> unambiguously tell everyone what is the most critical single Object of TS. > > Look up "Theosophical Society" in the index to the collected writings of HPB. >You will find exactly what John was talking about, and not at all hidden. > > Bart Lidofsky > I am still waiting to hear from the National Board of Directors of TSA and hope to hear from them after the Board Meeting. I hope to make the response availabe to all. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:43:03 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Esoteric School Message-ID: <34C43967.853FF81F@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > I'm seeking (as part of a larger project) to discern the nature and > degree to which the "Esoteric School" has integrated its members into the > current leadership at the Wheaton Headquarters of the American Section, and > to what degree, if any, plans or intentions for the TS general membership > and organization are formulated in private interactions within the ES power > structure. While the TS has a policy of not revealing personal information about its members, the individual members of the E.S. are not forbidden from declaring that fact. In addition, the only truly secret part of the E.S. are the passwords used in E.S. meetings. If you joined the E.S., took vows not to reveal their secrets, and then were told about secrets that you were not informed of out front, and you felt that these secrets were harmful to the membership of the TS at large, would you keep these secrets? There are far too many good and honorable people in the E.S. to allow any conspiracy that violates the very rules of the E.S. to remain a secret. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:14:24 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: ttt Message-ID: <199801200615.XAA15837@server.umt.edu> rrr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:40:02 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Esoteric School Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980120004002.00e38c8c@mail.eden.com> At 12:53 AM 1/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >JRC wrote: > >> I'm seeking (as part of a larger project) to discern the nature and >> degree to which the "Esoteric School" has integrated its members into the >> current leadership at the Wheaton Headquarters of the American Section, and >> to what degree, if any, plans or intentions for the TS general membership >> and organization are formulated in private interactions within the ES power >> structure. > > While the TS has a policy of not revealing personal information about its >members, the individual members of the E.S. are not forbidden from declaring >that fact. In addition, the only truly secret part of the E.S. are the passwords >used in E.S. meetings. If you joined the E.S., took vows not to reveal their >secrets, and then were told about secrets that you were not informed of out >front, and you felt that these secrets were harmful to the membership of the TS >at large, would you keep these secrets? There are far too many good and >honorable people in the E.S. to allow any conspiracy that violates the very >rules of the E.S. to remain a secret. > > Bart Lidofsky I want to add that I have personally known numerous members of E.S. who are really dedicated members and each of them tried to put into practice the first object of TS and have tried to do the best to TS and Theosophy and I consider it my good fortune and previlege to have known them. Also I have known several members of TS who are not ES members who are as dedicated to TS and Theosophy as well. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:51:28 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: The Esoteric School Message-ID: <199801200652.XAA07189@umt.umt.edu> > While the TS has a policy of not revealing personal information about its >members, the individual members of the E.S. are not forbidden from declaring >that fact. In addition, the only truly secret part of the E.S. are the passwords >used in E.S. meetings. If you joined the E.S., took vows not to reveal their >secrets, and then were told about secrets that you were not informed of out >front, and you felt that these secrets were harmful to the membership of the TS >at large, would you keep these secrets? There are far too many good and >honorable people in the E.S. to allow any conspiracy that violates the very >rules of the E.S. to remain a secret. > Bart Lidofsky Thank you for your opinion. I'm not seeking to find a "conspiracy", nor to say that any member of the ES is not honorable or well intentioned. I am simply trying to find the *truth* of this issue: To what degree do TS officer/board membership and ES membership overlap, and are there intentions for the TS as a whole that are created and planned within private ES interactions. While everyone is certainly free to post any opinions they wish, I myself am not seeking anyone's *evaluation* of the facts ... I'm just seeking the *facts*. I'd be content to discover that no members of the current board were ES members, and that the ES contented itself entirely with personal development and formulated no plans for the larger TS - if that is the truth of the matter. From what I can gather from your post your information is: That you do not know, or do not wish to say how many members of the current TS leadership are also ES members, and That you are not aware of any planning going on within ES circles, or if you are, do not personally consider the plans to be harmful to the TS. If this is an accurate representation, then I thank you for your contribution to my research, and eagerly await other perspectives. Regards, JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:13:52 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: "Good question. It is possible that truth may be beyond time and space, in which case static or dynamic may be inappropriate. mkr" That's not possible - that's true. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:31:41 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: "Certainly. And using the cut and paste feature on Windows I import it between programs all the time. Chuck the Heretic" Laughter! Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:27:09 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Esoteric School Message-ID: In message <34C43967.853FF81F@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >There are far too many good and >honorable people in the E.S. to allow any conspiracy that violates the very >rules of the E.S. to remain a secret. For what do they need secrets in the first place, given the objects of the T.S.? Are you a member? It is difficult not to wonder if there may not be bad and dishonorable people in the E.S. - how would anyone know? Would the goodies tell on them? Would the goodies even know there are baddies? There is at least ONE - this I know from personal experience. Unfortunately, owing to the lack of documentary or other proof, I could only expose myself to further attack(s) from the same quarter. I very much doubt if I am alone in this - anyone else had similar experience? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:27:38 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: ttt Message-ID: In message <199801200615.XAA15837@server.umt.edu>, JRC writes >rrr Oh Arr! --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:13:22 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Krishnamurti Trusts Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980120231322.010a6b80@mail.eden.com> Following are two msgs and my reply I posted on theos-talk. I hope it would interest some here. mkr ====================================== >From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 >Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:48:39 EST >From: BJack5259 >Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Krishnamurti litigation Ramadoss: I happened to have a long talk last year with this TSA board member to whom you refer, and find him, as do all members who know him, to be a man of extraordinary qualty and character, and one who has risen through many years of extraordinary sacrificial dedication to Krishnamurti and Theosophy. Far from being a secret, this litigation between Krishnamurti and the Krishnamurti Trust, K's former best friend Rajagapol as Trustee and other Theosophists who were dedicated to Krishnamurti, is common knowledge. This member openly talked of it to me due to my interest in the relationship between Krishnamurti and the TSA(Adyar), and recommended some books, including "LIves in the Shadow of J. Krishnamurti", by Radha Rajagopal Sloss. The numberous lawsuits were apparently all ultimately resolved in favor of Rajagopal and other members of the Board, and absolved then of any insinuation of conflict or wrongdoing with regard to the Trusts. ================= >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:29:56 -0600 >From: M K Ramadoss >Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Krishnamurti litigation At 09:57 PM 1/19/1998 EST, you wrote: >Once again I hit the wrong key and sent an incomplete message - I do >appologize for that. > My point with regard to the TSA Board Member was that mere involvement in >ligitation, is not, and should not be, a stigma or sign of bad character >disqualifying one from high office. Have you ever considered that maybe >Krishnamurti fell under the influence of different advisors late in life, and >that he was "in the wrong" for trying to break the long-established trusts, >the terms of which legally bound their Board of Directors? > Furthermore, there are members of the TSA(Adyar) who seem to enjoy using >litigation and its threat to coerce the National Board to do things their way, >and a member even filed an EEOC action and a Federal Lawsuit, both >subsequently dismissed as frivolous, against a former national president and >other members of the Board to coerce them to do something. Should their >involuntary participation in these actions disqualify them from high office? >I think not. > Brant Jackson MKR REPLY TO THE ABOVE TWO MSGS: =============================== IMHO, instead of taking anyone's word, I think anyone interested in the litigation should try see documented facts on the litigation so that they can get an objective understanding of what went on and get a flavor and make up their own mind and come to their own conclusion. I am sure no one need to be afraid of the truth and truth needs no defenders either. Also while looking at the facts, one should keep in focus that all the funds and property were donated for the single purpose and single purpose only - K to travel, lecture and spread his msg whatever it may be. K was the sole beneficiary of the all the money and property. Also the sad part was the huge amounts of donated funds wasted on high priced attorneys even though it was legal legal expenses. (Litigation went on from 1968 till final settlement was reached in 1986 after K's death and all the trustees of the old trusts resigned and properties transferred to the Krishnamurti Foundation of America). mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:17:57 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980121001757.01537728@mail.eden.com> At 06:15 AM 1/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >"Good question. It is possible that truth may be beyond time and space, in >which case static or dynamic may be inappropriate. > >mkr" > >That's not possible - that's true. > >Nicole > > Will let you know when I find out what truth is!!! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:34:55 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: ES --- inherently un-theosophical Message-ID: <01ISMTUCXRLA8ZEE6B@InfoAve.Net> part of the *real* problem is that it is an organization that discriminates based on religion. There are many relgions which use tobacco (sin!! sin!!). there are many religions which allow the eating of meat (sin! sin!!). there are many religions which use wine (alcohol!! sin!! sin!!). It is an organization which is in direct violation of the TS Objects. it is openly discriminatory based on religious beliefs. john e. mead From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:27:17 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: The Esoteric School Message-ID: "other perspectives" Do you have the possibility to go http://www.soc.hawaii.edu/leonj/leonj/leonpsy/instructor/society/250.html#evolut ion ? It's so to say the "Ouspensky-link". Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:24:00 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: ES --- inherently un-theosophical Message-ID: <8cb14c2d.34c63d42@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-21 09:32:20 EST, you write: >part of the *real* problem is that it is an organization >that discriminates based on religion. There are many >relgions which use tobacco (sin!! sin!!). there are many religions >which allow the eating of meat (sin! sin!!). there are many >religions which use wine (alcohol!! sin!! sin!!). > > "Let us sin lustily, that forgiveness may abound." Martin Luther Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 20:50:24 PST From: "Mika Perala" Subject: Nojopasnytjotain Message-ID: Hello there. I hope this works now. mika TI-member Finland ( the land of thousands of lakes and changing truths) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:56:20 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Nojopasnytjotain Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980121145620.01700668@mail.eden.com> At 02:08 PM 1/21/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Hello there. I hope this works now. > >mika >TI-member >Finland ( the land of thousands of lakes and changing truths) > > It does. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:19:41 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World WQ Judge's Letters Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980121221941.00f8e994@mail.eden.com> At 09:55 AM 1/16/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> At 12:51 AM 1/16/1998 -0500, you wrote: >> >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> > >> >> > If anybody wishes to reach Mr. Gomes in person, he is the librarian >> at the >> >> >New York Theosophical Society. By email, he can be reached at >> nyts@dorsai.org >> >> (I >> >> >will make certain he receives any email addressed to him. >> >> > >> >> > Bart Lidofsky >> >> >> >> Does Mr. Gomes have a e-mail address of his own? >> > >> > Not as far as I know. >> > >> > Bart Lidofsky >> >> If he has access to a 386 machine with windows and a modem, he may want to >> get a free e-mail account set up with Juno. It is free and does not need a >> Internet Service Provider. I am sure he has access to some kind of computer >> resource and as an author should be using some word processing software. >> >> Please pass this on to him. I would like to get his response. > > He has access, and had been offered this in the past. He does not take >advantage of this, however, so I take care of his email correspondence. I >asssume that he prefers to let me act as his secretary, but I cannot speak for >him. > > Bart Lidofsky I am glad to note that he had been offered this in the past and sorry to learn that he does not take advantage of this. The Internet/e-mail is such a new media which is so radically different from the print and video media that many don't understand it yet. These include many scholars and other learned people. Scholarship and learning has no correlation with the ability to have insight and perceive the potential and take action on time. I have seen scholars write about Internet in print media but have not seen them effectively use them, perhaps due to their long habit of love of paper and print. Added to it is the general difficulty that organizational leadership that are used to control (and censor) flow of information (to its membership) thru their official magazines and journals to learn to deal with the new medium which is not easily amenable to control and censorship. Also is the fact that most of the leadership belong to older generation which did not grow up in the computer culture like the current generation. One has just the see age (and grey hairs) of International and National Leaders of TS(Adyar) as an example. Also many times those working closely with these leaders may imbue the attitudes of the Leadership towards this medium. IMHO, the pity is that the leadership have not taken the bull by the horns and make an effective use of the new technology to spread the message of Theosophy, which is the primary job they are expected to do. It is only a question of time that the Internet Juggernaut runs over anyone who does not get on it and Time is a great solver of all problems. Regards mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:34:13 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Esoteric School Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980121223413.006f56b8@mail.eden.com> At 07:04 PM 1/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In message <34C43967.853FF81F@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes >>There are far too many good and >>honorable people in the E.S. to allow any conspiracy that violates the very >>rules of the E.S. to remain a secret. > >For what do they need secrets in the first place, given the objects of the >T.S.? Are you a member? > >It is difficult not to wonder if there may not be bad and dishonorable >people in the E.S. - how would anyone know? Would the goodies tell >on them? Would the goodies even know there are baddies? There is >at least ONE - this I know from personal experience. Unfortunately, >owing to the lack of documentary or other proof, I could only expose >myself to further attack(s) from the same quarter. I very much doubt if I >am alone in this - anyone else had similar experience? > >Alan There are strange people - I would not go so far to say dishonorable people every where. And ES is no exception. I had known a man who was a member of one of the lodges who was in TS, ES, Co-Masonic org. He had perhaps reached top levels of these and had for years lived at Adyar HQ, the heart of the TS. Hoping some of the spirit of Brotherhood would have osmosed into him with his long exposure to Theosophy (and ES, Co-Masonic), I wanted to visit with him to discuss an issue in which I thought he may be of some help to me. (Every time our then International President Mr. N. Sri Ram showed up for lecture at the Lodge, he was always in the front row looking like a sage and devoted member of TS. When I called him told him that I would like to visit with him, he told me in unmistakable terms that he did not want to see me. So much for the professed Brotherhood and practical Brotherhood. This goes to show that with all the external opportunities, some don't get it. This took place over two decades ago in India. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:47:22 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Esoteric School Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980121224722.0101b69c@mail.eden.com> While this may not be of much of a help in your project, here is an interesting anecdote. Our Lodge used to have our general membership meetings at 10.00am each Sunday. Usually the ES met between 9.00AM and 10.00AM. We had a couple, who were members of TS and ES. They would come to the ES meeting very religiously and as soon as the ES meeting was over they would not care to attend the general TS Meeting nor even take a few minutes to meet those assembled and leave immediately. This they did year after year till they moved out to another city. The husband later held a very important high International Office. If I had an opportunity to meet them, I would remind them of their behaviour. What this seems to show is that there appears to be a mistaken idea in the minds of many ES members that their meetings and activities are somehow more important than that of the ordinary TS membership. (I would very much like to know, if possible what the Adepts think about this possible attitude.) I do not know if any of you like to share your interesting experiences. mkr At 02:07 AM 1/19/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings All! hope everyone's new year is unfolding well ... > I'm in the middle of a little research project just now, and wondering >whether there might be anyone on the list with some information I'm looking >for .... > I'm seeking (as part of a larger project) to discern the nature and >degree to which the "Esoteric School" has integrated its members into the >current leadership at the Wheaton Headquarters of the American Section, and >to what degree, if any, plans or intentions for the TS general membership >and organization are formulated in private interactions within the ES power >structure. > I understand that apparently people's membership in the ES, as well as >(presumably) any such behind-the-scenes planning, are supposed to be kept >"secret". I also understand, however, that among past and even current ES >members there is a good deal of discontent . Should there then be those >among the ES membership that wish to speak to me privately (your >confidentiality will be completely respected) about the topics mentioned >above, please contact me by email at , by snail mail >at P.O. Box 7373, Missoula, MT, 59807, or by phone at (406)-721-7499. > Many Thanks, -JRC > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:11:36 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: arctic lights and queer sights? Message-ID: "Will let you know when I find out what truth is!!! mkr" Maybe the follwing may help a little - its out of a discussion I am having with Dr. Leon James, Prof. of Psychologiy, Univ. of Hawaii about spiritual psychology: I wrote: I am I and I am - I am not feelings, I have feelings. He answered: 'Thoughts are from affections.' E. Swedenborg Swedenborg says that angels (people from earth now in heaven) he talked to call themselves 'affections' (or feelings). There are feelings because feelings is from love and love is. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:42:12 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Private Responses to maillist msgs Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980122114212.011334f0@mail.eden.com> A little while ago, one of the subscribers sent me an eloquent e-mail msg in response to a discussion that is going on here on maillists. Internet is the ideal medium for public discussion of issues of interest to many of us. Also it helps everyone to understand the issues and points of view, and provide feedback however divergent they may be. Also one is likely to be more precise and factual in a public forum. In these circumstances, my personal request to everyone is that if you have something to say about something I have posted in the maillists, don't be afraid to post it as a public response for everyone to see. Everyone will be a winner is such a public discussion and no one need to be afraid of Truth and Truth needs no defenders either. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:03:50 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980122210350.00f60c40@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting exchange of msgs. First one is what I posted in response to Bro. Bart's post. This was posted to theos-l. Second one is a e-mail I received from Bro. Bart and my response. I have told him that I am posting it. I leave it the subscribers to draw their own conclusions on the whole correspondence. MKR PS: Bart should be commended for his response. It is perhaps the best written response I have seen among his posts on Internet IMHO: It is an unusually scholarly, very well structured and the diction, style, punctuation, show an extra-ordinary command of and facility with the English language. The ease with which most appropriate vocabulary, phrases and clauses have been used is also outstanding. I am sure many will agree with me. I am curious to find out if he received any help (small or big), any discussion or contribution whatsoever in any shape or form by way of tips, ideas, suggestions, any drafting, editing help etc. from anyone directly or indirectly connected or unconnected with TS (Adyar) (member/officer or not). I would like a simple response from him. If anyone else is involved in any manner whatsoever (whether described above or not), would he tell us who they are and what they contributed (however remote or indirect or insignificant) as it would be of some interest to some here. Again no one should be afraid of facts and truth. M K Ramadoss There is No Religion Higher Than Truth >Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:39:33 -0500 (EST) >From: M K Ramadoss >Subject: Re: The Esoteric School At 07:04 PM 1/20/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In message <34C43967.853FF81F@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes >>There are far too many good and >>honorable people in the E.S. to allow any conspiracy that violates the very >>rules of the E.S. to remain a secret. > >For what do they need secrets in the first place, given the objects of the >T.S.? Are you a member? > >It is difficult not to wonder if there may not be bad and dishonorable >people in the E.S. - how would anyone know? Would the goodies tell >on them? Would the goodies even know there are baddies? There is >at least ONE - this I know from personal experience. Unfortunately, >owing to the lack of documentary or other proof, I could only expose >myself to further attack(s) from the same quarter. I very much doubt if I >am alone in this - anyone else had similar experience? > >Alan There are strange people - I would not go so far to say dishonorable people every where. And ES is no exception. I had known a man who was a member of one of the lodges who was in TS, ES, Co-Masonic org. He had perhaps reached top levels of these and had for years lived at Adyar HQ, the heart of the TS. Hoping some of the spirit of Brotherhood would have osmosed into him with his long exposure to Theosophy (and ES, Co-Masonic), I wanted to visit with him to discuss an issue in which I thought he may be of some help to me. (Every time our then International President Mr. N. Sri Ram showed up for lecture at the Lodge, he was always in the front row looking like a sage and devoted member of TS. When I called him told him that I would like to visit with him, he told me in unmistakable terms that he did not want to see me. So much for the professed Brotherhood and practical Brotherhood. This goes to show that with all the external opportunities, some don't get it. This took place over two decades ago in India. mkr ======================================== Bart's e-mail msg to M K Ramadoss At 11:35 AM 1/22/1998 +0000, you wrote: >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> When I called him told him that I would like to visit with him, he told me >> in unmistakable terms that he did not want to see me. So much for the >> professed Brotherhood and practical Brotherhood. This goes to show that >> with all the external opportunities, some don't get it. This took place >> over two decades ago in India. > > The so-called Golden Rule is in virtually all of the world's >religions. It has been said that the Theosophical version of the >Golden Rule is, "What you do to others, you are doing to yourself, >and what you do to yourself, you are doing to others". I am keeping >this very much in mind with what I am about to say to you, and I hope >you take it in the spirit of Brotherhood in which I give it. > > From my knowledge of you, you are an extremely dedicated >Theosophist. You certainly appear to believe to have the good of >humanity, and at least the good of the Society, as your primary >intent. I also would rather have you as part of the Theosophical >Society than not part. > > There is, however, a type of selfishness that the Mahatmas warned >against, which people who are well along the "path" are especially >prone. It is when the person gains a belief that the person is the >only one who can solve the world's problems, and therefore that >person needs to have the information and authority necessary for the >task. Although there are many paths to the same place (or even no >paths at all, as Krishnamurti felt), someone afflicted with that type >of selfishness has a tendency to believe that one's own path is >somehow the best, or even the only one. When a person acts on that >belief, even though they feel their motives are pure, they tend to >become something of a pain in the ass. It becomes especially >difficult to deal with someone like this, because one is looking for >the same goal as they are, but one realizes that to help this person >in their goal is act as an enabler, and blocks their growth, as well >as the growth of humanity. > > To all appearances, you are afflicted with that sort of selfishness. >You frequently wish people to go through a great deal of trouble to >furnish you with means to do something, without explaining what you >plan to do with these means, and get upset when they are not willing >to put out the effort, and act as if their refusal is a crime against >humanity. The person who refused to see you may very well be >practising Brotherhood; he may have hoped that you would ask yourself >WHY he would not see you, rather than consider a personal affront to >be an affront against humanity. If you can see this, it is my >personal belief that your value to humanity will also be greatly >increased. > > Once again, I hope that you take this in the same spirit in which it >was intended, and, should our positions be reversed, that you give me >the same consideration I given you, and be straight with me even >though it might hurt my feelings. > >Bart Lidofsky > MKR Response to Bart: ==================== Thanks for your response. My response is very simple. I call the issues as I see it, no matter how anyone else sees my call. mkr ===============end of msg ============================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:23:06 -0500 From: John E Mead Subject: Re: Notification: message ignored Message-ID: <01ISPM9A626890NFLQ@InfoAve.Net> hi - the message-id problem got you on this one. Try sending a brand new message without using the 'reply' option. I think the reply option created the message using the old message-id. The (listserver) mailer will not send a message out twice. it decides this based on the message-id. so... try sending a new message without using 'reply'. peace - john e. mead ---------- > From: theos-l@vnet.net > To: jem@vnet.net > Subject: Notification: message ignored > Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 11:56 AM > > The Message-Id: matches entries > in the list's .message.ids file. > > The message is included below: > - > From mikap@dlc.fi Thu Jan 22 11:54:01 1998 > Received: from elf.dlc.fi (elf.dlc.fi [195.218.64.6]) > by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP > id LAA17281 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:53:53 -0500 (EST) > Received: from unknown (nym26.pp.dlc.fi [195.218.66.26]) > by elf.dlc.fi (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26744 > for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:52:36 +0200 (EET) > Message-ID: > Priority: Normal > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Priority: 3 > To: "teosofia postituslista" > MIME-Version: 1.0 > From: "Mika Perala" > Subject: re: nojopasnytjotain > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 18:47:11 PST > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It worked, OK. > Let`s see if it does it twice. > Sorry about this testing, folks. > > Mika From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:50:58 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: Bart: >> There is, however, a type of selfishness that the Mahatmas warned >>against, which people who are well along the "path" are especially >>prone. It is when the person gains a belief that the person is the >>only one who can solve the world's problems, and therefore that >>person needs to have the information and authority necessary for the >>task. Although there are many paths to the same place (or even no >>paths at all, as Krishnamurti felt), someone afflicted with that type >>of selfishness has a tendency to believe that one's own path is >>somehow the best, or even the only one. When a person acts on that >>belief, even though they feel their motives are pure, they tend to >>become something of a pain in the ass. It becomes especially >>difficult to deal with someone like this, because one is looking for >>the same goal as they are, but one realizes that to help this person >>in their goal is act as an enabler, and blocks their growth, as well >>as the growth of humanity. Bart put it very well. My own thinking when I read about Doss' account of that theosophist was that there are many reasons why people wouldn't/would do something. Although some motives may be evil, the older I get, the more I realize that people have good reasons behind their actions. I don't usually associate with 'evil' people, but sometimes my paranoia makes me think that good people have an ugly motive. Usually, when I realize the truth, I laugh at myself at the amount of lost time holding grudges. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:24:24 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <199801232125.OAA24376@server.umt.edu> >Bart put it very well. My own thinking when I read about Doss' account of >that theosophist was that there are many reasons why people wouldn't/would >do something. Although some motives may be evil, the older I get, the more >I realize that people have good reasons behind their actions. I don't >usually associate with 'evil' people, but sometimes my paranoia makes me >think that good people have an ugly motive. Usually, when I realize the >truth, I laugh at myself at the amount of lost time holding grudges. There are actually many kinds of selfishness that the Masters warned about. But this exchange has served to get completely off the point - Doss was using his interaction with that person as an *example* - to make a point about a much bigger issue. Whether this man had good reason or not to act the way he did - while Bart certainly presented one *possibility*, it is equally likely that *doss's* assumptions about why he was refused an interview are valid - a sort of spiritual arrogance develops within almost any "elite" group, a form of selfishness that even in HPB's time the Masters *explicitly* warned ES members about, the thought that they were somehow "above" regular TS members, and didn't need to participate in normal TS business and meetings - and *this* form of selfishness, on the part of the member, seems far more likely than the obscure form doss is being accused of possessing. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:12:27 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980123221227.00de06b0@mail.eden.com> At 04:28 PM 1/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Bart put it very well. My own thinking when I read about Doss' account of >>that theosophist was that there are many reasons why people wouldn't/would >>do something. Although some motives may be evil, the older I get, the more >>I realize that people have good reasons behind their actions. I don't >>usually associate with 'evil' people, but sometimes my paranoia makes me >>think that good people have an ugly motive. Usually, when I realize the >>truth, I laugh at myself at the amount of lost time holding grudges. > >There are actually many kinds of selfishness that the Masters warned about. >But this exchange has served to get completely off the point - Doss was >using his interaction with that person as an *example* - to make a point >about a much bigger issue. Whether this man had good reason or not to act >the way he did - while Bart certainly presented one *possibility*, it is >equally likely that *doss's* assumptions about why he was refused an >interview are valid - a sort of spiritual arrogance develops within almost >any "elite" group, a form of selfishness that even in HPB's time the Masters >*explicitly* warned ES members about, the thought that they were somehow >"above" regular TS members, and didn't need to participate in normal TS >business and meetings - and *this* form of selfishness, on the part of the >member, seems far more likely than the obscure form doss is being accused of >possessing. -JRC Let me also add that the same person who did not want to meet with me also used to attend the ES meetings that preceded the TS meetings and also he also never took the time to say hello to any of the TS members who had assembled for the TS meeting. I am sure one can always come up with many plausible reasons or excuses why he was always in a hurry to leave even though at that time he was fully retired. I have never seen him attend any regular/ordinary TS meetings at the lodge. But whenever any high placed official of importance such as the International President visits the lodge and speaks, he will always be there in the front row. I don't know what you call this -- "selfishness" or what? BTW, I am still awaiting Bart's response to my inquiry about any assistance etc. etc. etc. he received in preparing his msg. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:22:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980123222232.00deb29c@mail.eden.com> At 02:57 PM 1/23/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Bart: >>> There is, however, a type of selfishness that the Mahatmas warned >>>against, which people who are well along the "path" are especially >>>prone. It is when the person gains a belief that the person is the >>>only one who can solve the world's problems, and therefore that >>>person needs to have the information and authority necessary for the >>>task. Although there are many paths to the same place (or even no >>>paths at all, as Krishnamurti felt), someone afflicted with that type >>>of selfishness has a tendency to believe that one's own path is >>>somehow the best, or even the only one. When a person acts on that >>>belief, even though they feel their motives are pure, they tend to >>>become something of a pain in the ass. It becomes especially >>>difficult to deal with someone like this, because one is looking for >>>the same goal as they are, but one realizes that to help this person >>>in their goal is act as an enabler, and blocks their growth, as well >>>as the growth of humanity. > > >Bart put it very well. My own thinking when I read about Doss' account of >that theosophist was that there are many reasons why people wouldn't/would >do something. Although some motives may be evil, the older I get, the more >I realize that people have good reasons behind their actions. I don't >usually associate with 'evil' people, but sometimes my paranoia makes me >think that good people have an ugly motive. Usually, when I realize the >truth, I laugh at myself at the amount of lost time holding grudges. > >Thoa :o) > Let me add another classic example. There was a well know politician in India who was the Governor of Several States. He, as a young man grew up during the days of Annie Besant and affected by the love and warmth and brotherhood she always was known for. He fought for India's Independence and was a close associate of Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru and Indira Gandhi and I believe he was also imprisoned during British Rule of India. When he was the Governor, the guards at the entrance of the Governor's mansion were instructed to let in anyone who announced he is a member of TS. I know he was a long time member of TS and do not know he was a member of ES, Masonic etc. So there *are* some outstanding TS members who practiced real Brotherhood in everyday life. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:49:36 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Doss' Request Message-ID: <34C91E80.ABD9E839@sprynet.com> Due to working in a new mail system, my messages to this list got swallowed up. I have lost what Doss was looking for, but I THINK the answer is: A) I wrote the message entirely by myself. B) I thought of how the Mahatamas were capable of chiding someone while being simultaneously gentle while pulling no punches. Although I am not a Mahatma, I tried for the same thing. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:12:11 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Doss' Request Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980123181211.012dc164@mail.eden.com> At 05:59 PM 1/23/1998 -0500, you wrote: > Due to working in a new mail system, my messages to this list got >swallowed up. I have lost what Doss was looking for, but I THINK the >answer is: > > A) I wrote the message entirely by myself. > B) I thought of how the Mahatamas were capable of chiding someone >while being simultaneously gentle while pulling no punches. Although I >am not a Mahatma, I tried for the same thing. > > Bart Lidofsky > > No problem. Here is the text of the relevant part of the msg I posted. In the light of this, could you tell me if you want to expand or modify your statements above. Thanks Regards MKR There is no religion higher than Truth. ======================== PS: Bart should be commended for his response. It is perhaps the best written response I have seen among his posts on Internet IMHO: It is an unusually scholarly, very well structured and the diction, style, punctuation, show an extra-ordinary command of and facility with the English language. The ease with which most appropriate vocabulary, phrases and clauses have been used is also outstanding. I am sure many will agree with me. I am curious to find out if he received any help (small or big), any discussion or contribution whatsoever in any shape or form by way of tips, ideas, suggestions, any drafting, editing help etc. from anyone directly or indirectly connected or unconnected with TS (Adyar) (member/officer or not). I would like a simple response from him. If anyone else is involved in any manner whatsoever (whether described above or not), would he tell us who they are and what they contributed (however remote or indirect or insignificant) as it would be of some interest to some here. Again no one should be afraid of facts and truth. M K Ramadoss There is No Religion Higher Than Truth From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:39:40 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-23 14:57:08 EST, you write: > I don't >usually associate with 'evil' people, but sometimes my paranoia makes me >think that good people have an ugly motive. Actually, I prefer to associate with "evil" people. They are much more interesting than good ones. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:23:00 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Doss' Request Message-ID: <34C94274.DA0C155D@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > If anyone else is involved in any manner whatsoever > (whether described above or not), would he tell us > who they are and what they contributed (however > remote or indirect or insignificant) as it would > be of some interest to some here. Well, there is a very simple explanation there. Normally, I just dash off the email I send to these lists. On this letter, I was careful; I spent about half an hour on it. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:14:53 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: Aha! I was waiting for ole Chuckie to strike on my statement. You're getting too predictable, dear Chuckie. There used to be an interesting web site called "evilpeople.com". Thoa :o) >In a message dated 98-01-23 14:57:08 EST, you write: > >> I don't >>usually associate with 'evil' people, but sometimes my paranoia makes me >>think that good people have an ugly motive. > >Actually, I prefer to associate with "evil" people. They are much more >interesting than good ones. > >Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:22:28 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: Regarding the last few posts, I really cannot speak for attitudes of ES or TS members since I am not familiar with the organizations. However, I would be curious as to what the reason is for that man to not meet Doss. To imagine his answer to be, "You puny TS members are of no importance to me," seems too harsh. I am still determining the general attitudes of theosophists, whether I should splash myself with cold water whenever I consider officially joining a theosophical organization. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:29:38 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: When I was referring to organizations, I know that TI is an internet theosophical organization. However, I meant an organization in which you have to meet people face to face, bad breath, everything. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:18:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Bart's Reply Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980123211859.00fadbf8@mail.eden.com> At 08:29 PM 1/23/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> If anyone else is involved in any manner whatsoever >> (whether described above or not), would he tell us >> who they are and what they contributed (however >> remote or indirect or insignificant) as it would >> be of some interest to some here. > > Well, there is a very simple explanation there. Normally, I just dash off >the email I send to these lists. On this letter, I was careful; I spent about >half an hour on it. > > Bart Lidofsky The following is the whole quote of which some part was deleted in the above reply. Taking all of the following as a *whole*, do you see any need to add/modify the above response to make it accurate and complete. Thanks M K Ramadoss ====================== PS: Bart should be commended for his response. It is perhaps the best written response I have seen among his posts on Internet IMHO: It is an unusually scholarly, very well structured and the diction, style, punctuation, show an extra-ordinary command of and facility with the English language. The ease with which most appropriate vocabulary, phrases and clauses have been used is also outstanding. I am sure many will agree with me. I am curious to find out if he received any help (small or big), any discussion or contribution whatsoever in any shape or form by way of tips, ideas, suggestions, any drafting, editing help etc. from anyone directly or indirectly connected or unconnected with TS (Adyar) (member/officer or not). I would like a simple response from him. If anyone else is involved in any manner whatsoever (whether described above or not), would he tell us who they are and what they contributed (however remote or indirect or insignificant) as it would be of some interest to some here. Again no one should be afraid of facts and truth. M K Ramadoss There is No Religion Higher Than Truth =========================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:42:33 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >I should splash myself with cold water whenever I >consider officially joining a theosophical organization. Twice. Alan :o) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:45:45 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <3aEM$RAZXVy0EwPu@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19980123221227.00de06b0@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >BTW, I am still awaiting Bart's response to my inquiry about any assistance >etc. etc. etc. he received in preparing his msg. > >mkr ..and I am waiting for his answer to the question whether he is an ES member. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:40:41 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980123214041.006962c0@mail.eden.com> At 09:23 PM 1/23/1998 -0500, you wrote: >Regarding the last few posts, I really cannot speak for attitudes of ES or >TS members since I am not familiar with the organizations. However, I >would be curious as to what the reason is for that man to not meet Doss. >To imagine his answer to be, "You puny TS members are of no importance to >me," seems too harsh. I am still determining the general attitudes of >theosophists, whether I should splash myself with cold water whenever I >consider officially joining a theosophical organization. > >Thoa :o) I want to re-iterate nothing is wrong with TS organizations. I have been with TS for several decades and I have run into many many wonderful people over the years and it has helped me to develop best attitudes towards Humanity and I would any day recommend any one to join the TS. I am sure many here would confirm this. But after joining TS, a time is likely to come when one learns about the ES organization which is *not* officially connected with TS, but historically all TS leaders except H. S. Olcott was a member. One should carefully inquire as to what extent if, on TS policy or other matters if there is a conflict between what is told/expected of the ES member and the conscience of the member, can the member go along with the conscience. This may be an important consideration to some people who have grown up in the freedom environment of this country. At least based on the experience of one member who is in Chicago, when she was invited to come back into ES, she asked this specific question and she could not get a definite yes answer. She posted her experience on theos-l couple of years back. Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:08:32 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: >Alan :o) Hey, that's my face! Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:51:50 -0800 (PST) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: Doss: >I want to re-iterate nothing is wrong with TS organizations. I have been >with TS for several decades and I have run into many many wonderful people >over the years and it has helped me to develop best attitudes towards >Humanity and I would any day recommend any one to join the TS. I am sure >many here would confirm this. > >But after joining TS, a time is likely to come when one learns about the ES >organization which is *not* officially connected with TS, but historically >all TS leaders except H. S. Olcott was a member. What caused the "wonderful" TS people to change once they become ES people? If you're a wonderful and kind TS member, why would you turn into an arrogant ES member? Or do only arrogant TS members become ES members. Naive questions, but somebody's got to ask them. >One should carefully inquire as to what extent if, on TS policy or other >matters if there is a conflict between what is told/expected of the ES >member and the conscience of the member, can the member go along with the >conscience. This may be an important consideration to some people who have >grown up in the freedom environment of this country. How does a person become an ES member? Is there an elective process? Like elect like? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 04:52:27 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Power of Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980124045227.006973e0@mail.eden.com> I have posted about the enormous impact that Internet is having as a means of communicating and disseminating information. Now you have one more piece of evidence of the power of internet. I visited the Washington Post site and there was a link to www.slate.com which describes the how Net was the first one to break the Lewinsky story. The story was first posted on the Drudge Report site in California late last Saturday -- one week ago -- and the print media did not print it until following Wednesday. So one can expect all sorts of information being disseminated for free on the Internet and it is this free broadcasting worldwide that is going to make it very difficult to contain information considered sensitive or embarasssing by organizations. Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 05:07:33 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980124050733.00cd52e0@mail.eden.com> At 02:58 AM 1/24/1998 -0500, you wrote: >>>snip<<< >What caused the "wonderful" TS people to change once they become ES people? >If you're a wonderful and kind TS member, why would you turn into an >arrogant ES member? Or do only arrogant TS members become ES members. >Naive questions, but somebody's got to ask them. > >Thoa :o) Let me first of all clarify that I have known hundreds of ES members who are all very fine people in every way and I cherish my association with them. All these are *not* involved in any leadership positions (and the politics that goes on) and if you ask them why they are in it, their answer is self improvement. Likewise there are many in the leadership positions who are very fine people with whom it is a pleasure to be associated and work with. Someone else may want to respond to your second question. Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:50:29 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: All art is spiritual Message-ID: <086df4356151818UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> >Keith wrote > >I appreciate Mark K's comments on art, maybe because he IS an artist, which >I am not. I feel that art is definitely a way to access emotional, >psychological, and spiritual realms in the way the spoken word can never >do. Exalted (or debased) states of consciousness can be evoked in the >viewer. The art of the ancients was practically ALL art of a spiritual >nature starting with the cave painting and sculptures of our most distant >ancestors. Thanks Keith. I agree with you that visual art can tap into things that words can't touch, at least not in the same way. As far as ancient art goes, depending on what art you are refering to, I would agree that a lot of it was indeed intended to serve fetishistic, totemistic, ritualistic or magical aims. I don't know if I'd go as far in characterizing the majority of it as "spiritual" in the way you seem willing to do, but a lot of it certainly was. Art historians don't really know the intentions of the cave painters. Their scholarship is empirical, but their conclusions about the use and intent of the cave art is admittedly speculative. They confess that they will probably never know for certain the painter's attitude towards the work from physical evidence alone, but offer their theories in relation to assumptions about other documented historical and currently existing hunting cultures. It is a fascinating study. The work has great power and beauty. It stirs deep wells within us that no art created for contemporary museums . Keith: Dear Mark: I wrote an essay, considered unworthy on the national level, but I gave a workshop on it here in Texas concerning the fact that all art is spiritual. In the trivial sense all art is spiritual because Everything is grounded in spirit and not in matter. I think we could agree quickly on this, that is art is not paint or music on paper, but the total experience of the communication of the artist with the viewer/listener. The question is not if it IS spiritual, but spiritual on what leve and to what motive and effect. Breifly pornography is spirutal in a NEGATIVE sense of bringing the total person down to the level of physical OBJECT. Erotic art can be of high spirutality, as it is in the East in the temple of ANGOR WAT for example, wouldn't you say? Spirituality can only be conveyed in a "psycic-spiritual" way ( I know you are going to ask for a defintiion, but I think you know this can't be defined, usually called THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE). But art can open the laya center, the Jacob's ladder, the Golden Stairs in a way that abstractions and words can only shadow. Of interest to me now is the notion of the SHEKINAH, as the divine feminine receptical of divine wisdom and love chained in matter until the redemption of the unifications of worlds. The Mona Lisa is an example in fine art, logos such as TOMMY HILFIGER are debased hypnotic forms that hook are unconsciousness into loving blue jeans and caps, don't ya know? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:20:44 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <34CA14DC.CC1E6F6F@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <2.2.32.19980123221227.00de06b0@mail.eden.com>, > M K Ramadoss writes > >BTW, I am still awaiting Bart's response to my inquiry about any assistance > >etc. etc. etc. he received in preparing his msg. > > > >mkr > > ..and I am waiting for his answer to the question whether he is an ES > member. I am most certainly not an E.S. member. If the E.S. bore more than a surface resemblance to the one described by HPB in her articles (found in COLLECTED WRITINGS), then I would have been most interested in joining. The E.S. was originally formed by the suggestion of the Mahatma's, which appeared to be more or less, "Well, if they want their own religion, give them their own club." HPB turned it into more than that, however. She turned it into a school, where members could learn the disciplines necessary to begin to work with the occult so that they could use the occult as a means of spiritual growth, and avoid the trap of using it for personal empowerment. It remained so under Annie Besant until she fell under the spell of the "world teacher" movement, to the point that when Krishnamurti decided that he didn't want to face the temptations of Satan in the desert any more (if you're not familiar with the New Testament story, read it. It is a wonderful explanation of why so many religious leaders fail) she dissolved the E.S. as well, and only brought it back under pressure from the non-Krishnamurti followers. The way the organization works now, I consider it an organization to prevent investigation into the occult, rather than to give the means for doing so with relative safety. Some of the rules appear to me personally to be based in ignorance, and, in spite of definite and conscious efforts to keep this from happening, cause appearance to become more important than substance in many cases. Besides, I eat meat. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:46:08 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <34CA1AD0.A441E5F0@sprynet.com> Thoa Thi-Kim Tran wrote: > What caused the "wonderful" TS people to change once they become ES people? > If you're a wonderful and kind TS member, why would you turn into an > arrogant ES member? Or do only arrogant TS members become ES members. > Naive questions, but somebody's got to ask them. Out of all the E.S. members in the New York Lodge, I would only call one arrogant, and she left the E.S. The rest are all wonderful people, always willing to help the Lodge in any way they can. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:21:02 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Power of Internet Message-ID: >I have posted about the enormous impact that Internet is having as a means >of communicating and disseminating information. Now you have one more piece >of evidence of the power of internet. I visited the Washington Post site >and there was a link to www.slate.com which describes the how Net was the >first one to break the Lewinsky story. The story was first posted on the >Drudge Report site in California late last Saturday -- one week ago -- and >the print media did not print it until following Wednesday. > >So one can expect all sorts of information being disseminated for free on >the Internet and it is this free broadcasting worldwide that is going to >make it very difficult to contain information considered sensitive or >embarasssing by organizations. > >Ramadoss Yet, with all this broadcasting power, the focus is on a man's private matter, instead of his attempt at the peace process, or any other good he's done. In fact, the Lewinsky scandal overshadowed the Pope's historical presence in Cuba. In much the same way, the Princess Diana coverage is still going on until this day, but the death and life work of Mother Teresa barely made the news. Now, which came first, the hen or the egg. Is the media changing priorities for the public, or does the public have lousy priorities. Consider Oprah Winfrey. She could have kept going in the sensationalistic negative theme of most talk shows. Instead, she chose to use her forum to create The Angel Network, and to encourage people to think in terms of love and service. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:21:28 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: >At 02:58 AM 1/24/1998 -0500, you wrote: >>>>snip<<< >>What caused the "wonderful" TS people to change once they become ES people? >>If you're a wonderful and kind TS member, why would you turn into an >>arrogant ES member? Or do only arrogant TS members become ES members. >>Naive questions, but somebody's got to ask them. > >> >>Thoa :o) > >Let me first of all clarify that I have known hundreds of ES members who >are all very fine people in every way and I cherish my association with >them. All these are *not* involved in any leadership positions (and the >politics that goes on) and if you ask them why they are in it, their answer >is self improvement. Likewise there are many in the leadership positions >who are very fine people with whom it is a pleasure to be associated and >work with. > >Someone else may want to respond to your second question. > > >Ramadoss >From previous discussions, I'm given the impression that ES members are somehow unconscionable and arrogant. With communication increasing in power, perhaps there should be more balanced point of views, especially when they are reaching ignorant ears like mine. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:32:08 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Power of Internet Message-ID: <34CA33A8.2A7F@eden.com> Thoa Tran wrote: > > >I have posted about the enormous impact that Internet is having as a means > >of communicating and disseminating information. Now you have one more piece > >of evidence of the power of internet. I visited the Washington Post site > >and there was a link to www.slate.com which describes the how Net was the > >first one to break the Lewinsky story. The story was first posted on the > >Drudge Report site in California late last Saturday -- one week ago -- and > >the print media did not print it until following Wednesday. > > > >So one can expect all sorts of information being disseminated for free on > >the Internet and it is this free broadcasting worldwide that is going to > >make it very difficult to contain information considered sensitive or > >embarasssing by organizations. > > > >Ramadoss > > Yet, with all this broadcasting power, the focus is on a man's private > matter, instead of his attempt at the peace process, or any other good he's > done. In fact, the Lewinsky scandal overshadowed the Pope's historical > presence in Cuba. In much the same way, the Princess Diana coverage is > still going on until this day, but the death and life work of Mother Teresa > barely made the news. Now, which came first, the hen or the egg. Is the > media changing priorities for the public, or does the public have lousy > priorities. Consider Oprah Winfrey. She could have kept going in the > sensationalistic negative theme of most talk shows. Instead, she chose to > use her forum to create The Angel Network, and to encourage people to think > in terms of love and service. > > Thoa :o) As with any medium, there are going to be pluses and minuses. In a comment about the news anchors scheduled to cover Pope from Cuba, they cut short their visit and returned to USA to cover Lewinsky news, it was said between salvation and sin, sin won. Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:35:05 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <34CA3459.5E65@eden.com> Thoa Tran wrote: > > >At 02:58 AM 1/24/1998 -0500, you wrote: > >>>>snip<<< > >>What caused the "wonderful" TS people to change once they become ES people? > >>If you're a wonderful and kind TS member, why would you turn into an > >>arrogant ES member? Or do only arrogant TS members become ES members. > >>Naive questions, but somebody's got to ask them. > > > >> > >>Thoa :o) > > > >Let me first of all clarify that I have known hundreds of ES members who > >are all very fine people in every way and I cherish my association with > >them. All these are *not* involved in any leadership positions (and the > >politics that goes on) and if you ask them why they are in it, their answer > >is self improvement. Likewise there are many in the leadership positions > >who are very fine people with whom it is a pleasure to be associated and > >work with. > > > >Someone else may want to respond to your second question. > > > > > >Ramadoss > > >From previous discussions, I'm given the impression that ES members are > somehow unconscionable and arrogant. With communication increasing in > power, perhaps there should be more balanced point of views, especially > when they are reaching ignorant ears like mine. > > Thoa :o) You are absolutely right. I wish someone who knows better and preferably having from National/International leadership had responded here. I am sure if HPB were to be alive, she would be thundering here and set all wrong opinions right. I tried to share what little I know. Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:56:32 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <28135c64.34ca3962@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-23 21:15:19 EST, you write: > >Aha! I was waiting for ole Chuckie to strike on my statement. You're >getting too predictable, dear Chuckie. There used to be an interesting web >site called "evilpeople.com". > > lack of sleep from thinking up evil deeds for the upcoming Season of Violence. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:03:12 EST From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <88b9d855.34ca3af1@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-24 02:57:44 EST, you write: >What caused the "wonderful" TS people to change once they become ES people? Well, they get told that they are the Masters' special little people and it kind of goes to their heads. And since they live on prunes and pickle juice, the lack of proper nutriments makes them susceptible to all sorts of nonsense. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:12:48 EST From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Power of Internet Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-24 13:23:52 EST, you write: > In fact, the Lewinsky scandal overshadowed the Pope's historical >presence in Cuba. For which all of us who view the pope as beanied clown in a skirt are most grateful. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:26:42 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: All art is spiritual Message-ID: <34CA5C8A.47E8@withoutwalls.com> > Keith wrote > > Dear Mark: I think we could agree quickly on > this, that is art is not paint or music on paper, but the total experience > of the communication of the artist with the viewer/listener. Right. Generally, I believe that every expression is a human being's attempt to cultivate himself/herself, whether consciously or unconsciously and at whatever level of human experience. To express is a natural need. With that in mind, I can look at any artwork, no matter how weird or banal to me, and accept it as valid. I may or may not like or understand it, but I can validate it on those grounds and acknowledge the rights of the person to made it. > The question is not if it IS spiritual, but spiritual on what level and to > what motive and effect. Breifly pornography is spirutal in a NEGATIVE sense > of bringing the total person down to the level of physical OBJECT. Erotic > art can be of high spirutality, as it is in the East in the temple of ANGOR > WAT for example, wouldn't you say? Yep. Intention is everything. I love the sculptures on the temple at ANGOR WAT; very sexy. You don't see enough spirituality depicted in sexual terms in the West. We've been taught to be so freaked out and ashamed about it. I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere (Joesph Campbell?) that the sculptures are only found on the outside of the temple walls and a little bit inside. As the worshipper progresses inward, they gradually dissappear until in the central inner chamber, there is nothing at all. From ecstatic forms of love to the formless. What abeautiful idea. {If there isn't a temple like that, someone should build one.} > Spirituality can only be conveyed in a "psycic-spiritual" way ( I know you > are going to ask for a defintion, but I think you know this can't be > defined, usually called THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE). But art can open the > laya center, the Jacob's ladder, the Golden Stairs in a way that > abstractions and words can only shadow. Abstractions and words can do it too, but you have to know the void/silence. It's like in Taoist art, the realization of the void and it's symbol as blank paper or silk is the ground from which (and in which) all forms appear (pictorial, calligraphic, etc.) If you can get the void right, then anything that appears will be in relationship to it, therefore preserving the ultimate harmony: the void, the form(s) depicted and everything else that is "not the form(s) depicted." (Yin Yang in Tao.) The trouble is that most people, artists or not, aren't aware of that and so, for them, the harmony is unconscious. They only see the object(s). The expression seems limited. You know, those Taoist artists only ever make one picture. They keep painting the Tao over and over and over again. Looks different every time, but it's still essentially the same picture. Lao Tsu said it like this: "Ever desiring, one sees the outward manifestation. Ever desireless, one sees the mystery." Desire (or repulsion) is the relation between you and the object. Desireless is the void. > Of interest to me now is the notion of the SHEKINAH, as the divine feminine > receptical of wisdom and love chained in matter until the redemption > of the unifications of worlds. The Mona Lisa is an example in fine art, > logos such as TOMMY HILFIGER are debased hypnotic forms that hook our > unconsciousness into loving blue jeans and caps, don't ya know? The logo itself doesn't do that. It's all the other glamour built up and associated with it that tries to sway us as people on the desire level. Don't torque yourself out too much about it. You gotta wear something and it's OK to be a person. Enjoy your culture. It's fun. Play with it. Tommy Hilfiger IS the SHEKINAH, just as you, I and everyone else IS. When we unify our own interior worlds of Spirit and Matter, we will all experience HER redemption where WE ARE, no? Nice talking with you again Keith, Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:18:13 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <5ovvDfA1any0EwMA@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <34CA3459.5E65@eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes > I am >sure if HPB were to be alive, she would be thundering here OH BOY! I love it! Alan %-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:21:21 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: In message <88b9d855.34ca3af1@aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >since they live on prunes and pickle juice, the lack of proper nutriments >makes them susceptible to all sorts of nonsense. > >Chuck the Heretic WE PROTEST! (Signed) The Prunes and Pickle Juice Association. (aka Prickle-Ass) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:14:30 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <2YXsPVAWXny0Ewvd@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , Thoa Thi-Kim Tran writes > >>Alan :o) > >Hey, that's my face! > >Thoa :o) > I know - but you've seen mine: wouldn't *you* want a change? Alan :-\ --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:13:08 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <24TsHQAEWny0EwNb@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <3.0.3.32.19980123214041.006962c0@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >One should carefully inquire as to what extent if, on TS policy or other >matters if there is a conflict between what is told/expected of the ES >member and the conscience of the member, can the member go along with the >conscience. This may be an important consideration to some people who have >grown up in the freedom environment of this country. The letters of Helen Dennis of Chicago in 1908, who was secretary of the ES at the time, and the conflicts which lead to her resignation from both TS and ES are in the file CWL.ZIP on the website below. These letters only came to see the light of day in 1996. Click via the DIRECTORY link. (I have photocopies of some of them). Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:15:59 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <6IZvraAvYny0EwPP@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <34CA14DC.CC1E6F6F@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > The way the organization works now, I consider it an organization to prevent >investigation into the occult, rather than to give the means for doing so with >relative safety. Some of the rules appear to me personally to be based in >ignorance, and, in spite of definite and conscious efforts to keep this from >happening, cause appearance to become more important than substance in >many >cases. > > Besides, I eat meat. That kind of sums it up! thanks Bart! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:33:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World an "ES reject" Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980124183336.00ba2640@mail.eden.com> At 04:11 PM 1/24/1998 EST, you wrote: >About 15 years ago, I tried to join the ES but was rejected because I was a >Sai Baba devotee. The ES warden, who did the rejecting and who is now >deceased, said I couldn't join and at the same time be a member of another >"arcane school". I asked her if Sai Baba was an "arcane school" and she said >yes. I then asked, "If I were a Hindu and had a guru, like Ramana Maharshi, >Ramakrishna or Sri Aurobindo, would that be considered being a member of an >arcane school?". Again, she said yes. I could see the conversation was going >nowhere so I had to return the application form and some other things that she >requested. > >I had some ES supporters in my attempt to join and they were somewhat >chagrined and upset about what happened and they apologized to me. This was >unnecessary, however. I held no animosity towards this woman. She was an >80-year old, old-line theosophist whose spiritual parameters were limited to a >theosophical hierarchy of approved Masters and Adepts. So I just left it at >that. > >I've always found that a Lodge with an ES chapter was always very vibrant and >faithful to the spread broadcast of theosophical teachings. An ES chapter >always seems to add a change in vibration for the better. > >Lmhem111 I am very shocked to hear this. This is the first time I hear someone being asked about their present beliefs and if you are not willing to give up one of them up, then you cannot be admitted to ES. This is what all the (exclusive) religions want and demand -- except perhaps Buddhism. Did this incident happen in the US or in what part of the World?. To the best of my knowledge, Sai Baba does not have a Arcane School. Correct me if I am wrong. Giving reasons backed by verifiable factual information. I have several friends who are followers of Sai Baba and are doing wonderful work for Humanity. As a matter of fact when we had a local situation wherein the County was cutting off access to health care to the indigent and uninsured poor, I took on the local Hospital District and the County Court single handed, the only person who responded to come with me and speak up for the indigent and poor was a Sai Baba devotee and not a single member of TS showed any interest. Of course each one has their own (valid) reasons why someone may act or may not act. I am just stating the simple facts. Also, the Sai Baba devotee had no axes to grind and is financially affluent and I can depend on to call for any help at any time for any purpose. As recently some weeks ago I helped some of the devotees to start a project to support funding rural health care for the poor in India and one devotee has notified in his wedding invitation that instead of gifts, contribution may be sent for this humanitarian project. In India, everyone may have one or several Gurus or other holy men/women to whom a person may relate to. I have never heard anyone mentioning in India that you cannot join ES if you are a follower of X, Y, or Z. I suppose either the 80 year old women was wrong or the rules have changed. The only way to verify is to send a letter to the International President requesting clarification. I would really be surprised anyone else on these lists coming up with an authoritative answer. If anyone in authority can answer here, that is most welcome and will clear the air. Not clearing the air will only leave a cloud over the situation and that would not help. In the context of the above, I am attaching the famous 1900 letter in which the Master is very very clear as to what He feels: ================= THE E.S.T. MUST BE REFORMED SO AS TO BE AS UNSECTARIAN AND CREEDLESS AS THE T.S. THE RULES MUST BE FEW AND SIMPLE AND ACCEPTABLE TO ALL. No one has the right to claim authority over a pupil or his conscience. Ask him not what he believes. ALL WHO ARE SINCERE AND PURE MINDED MUST HAVE ADMITTANCE. ============================================================= Ramadoss THE 1900 LETTER A psychic and a pranayamist who has got confused by the vagaries of the members. The T.S. and its members are slowly manufacturing a creed. Says a Thibetan proverb "credulity breeds credulity and ends in hypocrisy." How few are they who can know anything about us. Are we to be propitiated and made idols of. IS THE WORSHIP OF A NEW TRINITY MADE UP OF THE BLESSED M., UPASIKA AND YOURSELF TO TAKE THE PLACE OF EXPLODED CREEDS. WE ASK NOT FOR THE WORSHIP OF OURSELVES. THE DISCIPLE SHOULD IN NO WAY BE FETTERED. BEWARE OF AN ESOTERIC POPERY. The intense desire to see Upasika reincarnate at once has raised a misleading Mayavic ideation. Upasika has useful work to do on higher planes and cannot come again so soon. The T.S. must safely be ushered into the new century. YOU HAVE FOR SOME TIME BEEN UNDER DELUDING INFLUENCES. SHUN PRIDE, VANITY AND LOVE OF POWER. BE NOT GUIDED BY EMOTION BUT LEARN TO STAND ALONE. BE ACCURATE AND CRITICAL RATHER THAN CREDULOUS. THE MISTAKE OF THE PAST IN THE OLD RELIGIONS MUST NOT BE GLOSSED OVER WITH IMAGINARY EXPLANATIONS. THE E.S.T. MUST BE REFORMED SO AS TO BE AS UNSECTARIAN AND CREEDLESS AS THE T.S. THE RULES MUST BE FEW AND SIMPLE AND ACCEPTABLE TO ALL. No one has the right to claim authority over a pupil or his conscience. Ask him not what he believes. ALL WHO ARE SINCERE AND PURE MINDED MUST HAVE ADMITTANCE. The crest wave of intellectual advancement must be taken hold of and guided into spirituality. It cannot be forced into beliefs and emotional worship. The essence of the higher thoughts of the members in their collectivity must guide all action in the T.S. and E.S. We never try to subject to ourselves the will of another. At favourable times we let loose elevating influences which strike various persons in various ways. It is the collective aspect of many such thoughts that can give the correct note of action. We show no favours. The best corrective of error is an honest and open-minded examination of all facts subjective and objective. MISLEADING SECRECY HAS GIVEN THE DEATH BLOW TO NUMEROUS ORGANIZATIONS. The cant about "Masters" must be silently but firmly put down. Let the devotion and service be to that Supreme Spirit alone of which one is a part. Namelessly and silently we work and the continual references to ourselves and the repetition of our names raises up a confused aura that hinders our work. YOU WILL HAVE TO LEAVE A GOOD DEAL OF YOUR EMOTIONS AND CREDULITY BEFORE YOU BECOME A SAFE GUIDE AMONG THE INFLUENCES THAT WILL COMMENCE TO WORK IN THE NEW CYCLE. The T.S. was meant to be the corner-stone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength. K.H. PS: In 1900 a B. W. Mantri of India, wrote a letter to Annie Besant, then in England, dated August 22. When A.B. opened it she found on its back some lines in the well-known blue pencilling of the MASTER K. H. In the volume published in 1919 by the Theosophical Publishing House of Adyar this letter and the blue penciled lines are reproduced and are included in all subsequent reprintings. (Letter 46, p.99. Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, 4th, 5th, 6th edition.) In the 1948 printing Mr. C. Jinarajadasa adds some historical comments and includes also some letters newly found and never before printed from K.H. to Laura Holloway. H.P.B., and Olcott. The penciled lines from K.H. To Mrs. Besant in the 1900 letter, however, were never published in completeness, as ellipses dots indicate, the editors omitting certain lines they considered too private for public reading. The following now is the complete Letter, earlier omissions being indicated in bold letters. The earnest student will study these omissions which in context reveal the Master's fuller and clear advise. The time indeed may be propitious for their disclosure. The first sentence evidently has reference to Mr. B. K. Mantri. --Ed. [Excerpted from The Eclectic Theosophist, No. 101, September/October 1987] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:38:34 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980124183834.00fe651c@mail.eden.com> At 07:10 PM 1/24/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In message <34CA3459.5E65@eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com >writes >> I am >>sure if HPB were to be alive, she would be thundering here > >OH BOY! I love it! > >Alan %-) If HPB were to be meek and did not take on the spiritualists very aggressively in the print media of the day, we would not have TS nor Theosophy. Sure we will have a very lively theos-l, ti-l, etc. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:42:11 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980124184211.00726858@mail.eden.com> At 07:21 PM 1/24/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In message <3.0.3.32.19980123214041.006962c0@mail.eden.com>, >M K Ramadoss writes >>One should carefully inquire as to what extent if, on TS policy or other >>matters if there is a conflict between what is told/expected of the ES >>member and the conscience of the member, can the member go along with the >>conscience. This may be an important consideration to some people who have >>grown up in the freedom environment of this country. > >The letters of Helen Dennis of Chicago in 1908, who was secretary of >the ES at the time, and the conflicts which lead to her resignation from >both TS and ES are in the file CWL.ZIP on the website below. These >letters only came to see the light of day in 1996. Click via the >DIRECTORY link. (I have photocopies of some of them). > >Alan Thanks. The incident that took place in recent years was posted in detail on theos-l and the person concerned now lives in Chicago. Obviously situation has not changed. See also the post re: experience of a member who was declined admittance because he was a follower of Sai Baba. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:29:25 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-24 20:07:35 EST, you write: > >If HPB were to be meek and did not take on the spiritualists very >aggressively in the print media of the day, we would not have TS nor >Theosophy. Sure we will have a very lively theos-l, ti-l, etc. > >mkr We'd all probably be lucky to be still alive after she flamed us! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:03:07 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980124200307.00fe3bec@mail.eden.com> At 08:39 PM 1/24/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-24 20:07:35 EST, you write: > >> >>If HPB were to be meek and did not take on the spiritualists very >>aggressively in the print media of the day, we would not have TS nor >>Theosophy. Sure we will have a very lively theos-l, ti-l, etc. >> >>mkr > >We'd all probably be lucky to be still alive after she flamed us! > >Chuck the Heretic > That would have sharpened our writing skills also. ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:06:40 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An Interesting Exchange Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980124200640.00fe3f50@mail.eden.com> There is very little on record about ES. The last one I have seen was in the Canadian Theosophist in 70s and it was posted on theos-l several months ago and many of you may have seen it. For the newer subscribers, if any one is interested, it can be reposted. Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:02:53 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Balance Message-ID: <199801250504.WAA16677@selway.umt.edu> >>From previous discussions, I'm given the impression that ES members are >somehow unconscionable and arrogant. With communication increasing in >power, perhaps there should be more balanced point of views, especially >when they are reaching ignorant ears like mine. >Thoa :o) Emerson once said that you can have truth, or repose, but you can't have both. The masters, as they presented themselves in the Mahatma Letters, did *not* seek "balance", they sought *truth* ... there is an infamous letter in which KH says that 2/3's of the world's evil is caused by priesthoods .... certainly *not* a "balanced" viewpoint, and in fact to many quite insulting and "unbrotherly" .... but apparently from their point of view "brotherhood" means something far different than "being nice and not upsetting anyone", and "truth" often did not appear "balanced" according to the polite, conventional social sensibilities of a particular time and culture. What does "balance" mean, as you use it? Does it mean that a person who has had nothing other than a negative experience with the ES ought to keep quiet about it, or *pretend* that there was some positive to "balance" it with? That for every person that relates a negative story about an encounter with the ES, there should be someone that relates a positive experience? What if for every person that *had* a positive experience, there were three that had *negative* experiences ... what if that were the *truth* of the matter - should it be ignored or avoided in the name of "balance"? What if a "priesthood" now *controls* the TS, a priesthood that organizes itself with the community of some ES members ... and that priesthood, and the policies and attitudes it generates is *responsible* (for instance) for the fact that membership in the US has dropped by between a quarter and a third in less than a decade? You may wish to contemplate an additional thought: That these TS Internet lists are *themselves* the way a "balance" of sorts is reached - as the American Theosophist ... the magazine that was *supposed* to be the forum for *members*, is now *entirely* dominated by one man - who permits no criticism or questioning of his policies whatsoever to be distributed to the membership - even though discontent is intense and growing among the membership- is it any suprise then that when a few Theosophists get access to this medium that Wheaton *cannot* control, that what may appear to be a surplus of seemingly critical writing appears ... that in fact the surplus *here* is *caused* by and indeed a means of *balancing* the total supression of its sentiments through "official" channels? I remember when the last bylaw revisions of the TS were proposed ... and presented in the official publications as little more than "housekeeping" changes that no one needed to be concerned about. I remember seeing how they were presented through those "official" channels ... they were proposed, explained, one or two extremely minor critiques were permitted, and even those were then answered ... creating an entire scene that presented the revisions as little more than bureaucratic minutae that no one felt very strongly one way or another about. It seemed suprising to me that they would pass with a goodly majority of the vote, until I realized that those publications were *all* the vast majority of the membership saw. Now on *this* list not only weren't they seen as minor housekeeping changes, but were the subject of a very long, intense and heated debate between staunch defenders and opponents, a debate in which an enormous number of facts came to light about some past activities of the Wheaton leadership, and it became very clear that after the changes power would be even more centralized than it already was. Its likely that few defenders or opponents had their minds changed by the debate, but it was the *actual* debate - and I suspect if the entire membership had been witness to *that* debate, instead of the intensely spin-doctored pablum that was presented in the AT, the vote would have been far far closer, and in fact the revisions could very well have been defeated. Yes, Thoa, with communication increasing in power, I *agree* that a more "balanced" perspective needs to be achieved - but please convey this then to *Wheaton* ... the balance required is not for the 100 or so people of these lists, who have an opportunity to see both the supporters and opponents of anything concerning the TS or ES ... but the (now slightly less than) 4000 members of the TS who *don't* ... who will only be presented with a carefully sanitized version of any TS policies, and will hear nothing at *all* about the ES, and will be at times *delibrately* mislead about the fact that any controversy or criticism even exists, let alone what the nature of it is. The power of communication is increasing *wonderfully* and in the very near future those leaders of *any* organization - indeed, any *nation*, that attempt to stay in power by *controlling* information will find their foundation of power suddenly melting as quickly as ice in the warm Montana springtime sun (in fact its happening already all over the place). What you've seen on this list is what people think and feel ... and as regards the ES, we've had several stories of a negative nature, and one person speaking in support - but no one has been prevented from speaking their point of view ... you certainly may conclude that the resulting evidence is inaccurate, or that the sample set of those on this list are not representative of the TS as a whole, but probably no one on this list is about to not speak their mind out of concern for presenting a balanced picture to the "ignorant" - they'll probably just tell the ignorant to put forth the effort to educate themselves, to vigorously investigate with their own energy, and evaluate the information based on their own standards ... its kind of the truest spirit of Theosophy, where "There is no religion higher than truth". (Plus, I hardly think you're "ignorant" ... (-:). Of course, if you *do* attempt to pursue the truth of many matters, if you *do* try to get the information necessary to *do* an accurate evaluation, you run the risk of being politely called "selfish" (proving that someone can be both nice and arrogant at the same time) - and it probably is worth it to examine that ... but take that particular form of "selfishness" in the context the Masters presented it: They *did* say that it was a form of selfishness to think one had the right to *their occult secrets* - secrets they had taken vows to protect and done incredible work to earn - but this has virtually nothing to do with a legitmate, dues-paying member of an organization operating under the IRS determination of "non-profit and publicly supported" in the United States, wanting to know whether a private group of individuals is running the organization behind the scenes (regardless of whether their intentions are "good"), wanting explanations when the leadership suddenly "discovers" new goals or objectives or deeper meanings in the Objects of the Society, or wanting copies of Federal tax returns - these are not occult secrets being demanded by an unqualified chela; it is *not* selfish to want such information, but is in fact not only selfish and arrogant, but in some cases actually *illegal* for the *leadership* to *withhold* it. Personally, I *believe* the purpose of the TS is the full actualization of the Three Objects in human civilization; I *hypothesize* (with a considerable body of evidence to support the hypothesis - my research is producing some interesting results from unexpected quarters) the existance of a group of people and a set of attitudes both in and surrounding the current leadership that are not only not furthering the manifestation of those Objects, but indeed standing in the way of it; that in *empirical terms* are slowly but surely *destroying* the TS (we've gone from 6000 to 4000 ... when will people discover there is a crisis ... when we hit 2000? 1000?). I believe it possible that the "evil" spoken of by KH, the functional equivilant of a *priesthood* willing to use institutional *authority* to impose *parameters* on the search for truth, has taken root at the very center of our Theosophical Society. (And it makes *no difference* whether they are "well intentioned" or "nice" ... many of the people governing the priesthoods of the world are well intentioned and nice - but that apparently produced no alteration whatsoever of KH's opinion). You may not believe this perspective is "balanced", but I believe it is the *truth*. And of course if you or anyone else has opinions or evidence or a belief in an alternative truth, you are fully free to present it here. And perhaps a wider range of the truth, an awareness larger than all of our individual perspectives, will arise out of the vigorous discussion between alternative views of earnest Theosophists (which may in fact be precisely the sort of environment *intended* by the Masters when they created the TS). However, if you do wish to post something, to engage in the discussion from what you consider a more balanced point of view ... please contemplate the fact that (according to evidence so far received) at least 3/4, and possibly as many as 9/10's of the officers and board members of the TS *are* ES members, and while we *are* free to have this discussion here, we would *not* be permitted to at Theosophical Headquarters, could not do a seminar/discussion session about it at a Summer Convention, nor publish even a word of it in any official publication of the American TS ... and I believe this fact *profoundly* dishonors the founders - who actually seemed to believe that the phrase "There is no religion higher than truth" ought to be *genuinely lived*. Lux et Veritas, -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:17:55 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Balance Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125001755.00fe7828@mail.eden.com> At 12:12 AM 1/25/1998 -0500, you wrote: >>>>snip<<<<<< >However, if you do wish to post something, to engage in the discussion from >what you consider a more balanced point of view ... please contemplate the >fact that (according to evidence so far received) at least 3/4, and possibly >as many as 9/10's of the officers and board members of the TS *are* ES >members, and while we *are* free to have this discussion here, we would >*not* be permitted to at Theosophical Headquarters, could not do a >seminar/discussion session about it at a Summer Convention, nor publish even >a word of it in any official publication of the American TS ... and I >believe this fact *profoundly* dishonors the founders - who actually seemed >to believe that the phrase "There is no religion higher than truth" ought to >be *genuinely lived*. > >Lux et Veritas, -JRC > Could it be the fact 9/10 of the officers are ES members may have something to do with the fact that we have not seen any of them here since the day this list was launched? I am just wondering? Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:27:08 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Balance Message-ID: <1cdd9c23.34cadb3e@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-25 00:13:45 EST, you write: > we would >*not* be permitted to at Theosophical Headquarters, could not do a >seminar/discussion session about it at a Summer Convention, nor publish even >a word of it in any official publication of the American TS ... and I >believe this fact *profoundly* dishonors the founders - who actually seemed >to believe that the phrase "There is no religion higher than truth" ought to >be *genuinely lived*. > >Lux et Veritas, -JRC Ok, let's go to convention and summer school and have this discussion openly among ourselves and let anyone there dare to try to stop it. Maybe we can't do anything official, but we can sure do unoffical things to make the sacerdotal caste nervous. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:32:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World an "ES reject" Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125003259.00bc0560@mail.eden.com> Another instance comes to my mind. A very well known member of TS(Adyar) who also held important leadership positions took time to travel to India and stayed at Sai Baba's Ashram for several months. This person on return from India gave a first hand glowing assessment. The person was an ES member and I wonder the person was either asked to leave or kicked out or still a ES member. I am not mentioning the name. If the person is still a member of ES, I do not want jeopardise the situation. Ramadoss At 04:11 PM 1/24/1998 EST, you wrote: >About 15 years ago, I tried to join the ES but was rejected because I was a >Sai Baba devotee. The ES warden, who did the rejecting and who is now >deceased, said I couldn't join and at the same time be a member of another >"arcane school". I asked her if Sai Baba was an "arcane school" and she said >yes. I then asked, "If I were a Hindu and had a guru, like Ramana Maharshi, >Ramakrishna or Sri Aurobindo, would that be considered being a member of an >arcane school?". Again, she said yes. I could see the conversation was going >nowhere so I had to return the application form and some other things that she >requested. > >I had some ES supporters in my attempt to join and they were somewhat >chagrined and upset about what happened and they apologized to me. This was >unnecessary, however. I held no animosity towards this woman. She was an >80-year old, old-line theosophist whose spiritual parameters were limited to a >theosophical hierarchy of approved Masters and Adepts. So I just left it at >that. > >I've always found that a Lodge with an ES chapter was always very vibrant and >faithful to the spread broadcast of theosophical teachings. An ES chapter >always seems to add a change in vibration for the better. > >Lmhem111 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:39:29 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ES Membership Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125003929.00bc0560@mail.eden.com> When Krishnaji made his Truth is a Pathless Land statement and disbanded the Order of the Star of the East, Annie Besant instructed couple of members of ES to resign and go and help Krishnaji travel, lecture and teach. They all gladly did and were close to him till he died. [I don't think that they never thought of their losing direct contact with Mahatmas by doing so!] Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:43:18 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Balance Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125004318.00697534@mail.eden.com> At 01:32 AM 1/25/1998 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-25 00:13:45 EST, you write: > >> we would >>*not* be permitted to at Theosophical Headquarters, could not do a >>seminar/discussion session about it at a Summer Convention, nor publish even >>a word of it in any official publication of the American TS ... and I >>believe this fact *profoundly* dishonors the founders - who actually seemed >>to believe that the phrase "There is no religion higher than truth" ought to >>be *genuinely lived*. >> >>Lux et Veritas, -JRC > >Ok, let's go to convention and summer school and have this discussion openly >among ourselves and let anyone there dare to try to stop it. Maybe we can't >do anything official, but we can sure do unoffical things to make the >sacerdotal caste nervous. > >Chuck the Heretic > A very good idea. How about selecting some kind of uniformly colored outfit so that it is easy for us to identify each other? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:58:17 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World an "ES reject" Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125005817.00d538f4@mail.eden.com> At 12:49 AM 1/25/1998 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-24 20:13:29 EST, you write: > ><< I am very shocked to hear this. This is the first time I hear someone being > asked about their present beliefs and if you are not willing to give up one > of them up, then you cannot be admitted to ES. This is what all the > (exclusive) religions want and demand -- except perhaps Buddhism. Did this > incident happen in the US or in what part of the World?. >> > >The incident occurred in a Lodge on the East Coast in 1982. I don't want to be >too specific about naming the Lodge in an open forum on the Internet. The >warden had been a lady who joined the TS back in the 1920's, had met Annie >Besant, CWL and that lot, and was an old-timer. She lived into her Nineties. >She was something of a consistent thorn in the side of the Lodge because she >had the annoying habit of always saying no to everything, particularly at >Board meetings when proposals were being made. When the incident occurred, I >was at first distressed and felt rejected (the old ego thing) but then I >realized that this particular individual was rather aged, fixed in her ways >and opinions and not very well informed. There was already something of an >anti-Baba bias among some members there because they didn't quite know what to >make of Him. > >A bit later on at some gathering, I ran into John Coker of the Pasadena TS >Lodge from Frederick, MD (he was living on the East Coast at the time). I >related the incident as I described it here and he said that "you can't cross >the river riding two horses at the same time" which is what Eldon is saying >also. This I can understand. Yet I still find it curious that this lady could >have so completely misunderstood the guru/chela relationship that is so common >among Hindus in India, many of whom are also theosophists. Could the Vedanta >philosophy of Shankaracharya, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Ramana Maharshi, >Shirdi Sai Baba, Sathya Sai Baba, Aurobindo, etc.,etc. be so different from >theosophy (brahma-vidya) ?. If for instance, I had said that I had indeed >belonged to Alice Bailey's Arcane School or the Rosicrucian Fellowship or Dion >Fortune's Fraternity of the Inner Light, then I could have understood her >rejection of my application. But pardon me, Vedanta (as presented by Baba)? An >"arcane school"? I don't think so. In the January, 1998 issue of THEOSOPHY >magazine (page 80) it says that "of all systems, Buddhism is the most akin to >Theosophy". So while I know that Buddhism is the TS's favored religion, it's >still supposed to be open to all religions. Yet somehow I think that if I had >suggested that I was a follower of the Dalai Lama or some high Rinpoche >(instead of Baba), my request would have been treated quite differently. > The reason why I asked if it happened here in the US is because if this standard is applied to members in India, half of them would not qualify, unless as I said the rules have been changed in the last 20 years. The more likely scenario is the lady was misinformed and mistaken even though she may have met Annie Besant and CWL and even one of the Adepts. In the case of Sai Baba, Shankaracharya, Ramana Maharishi etc., they are not in the business of prescribing what you should and should not do and what kind of yogic or meditational practices are recommended and are not in the business of guiding followers. As a matter of fact Ramana Maharishi rarely spoke. So the analogy of riding two horses is not appropriate in this situation. In the extremely rare book by Ernest Wood -- "Is This Theosophy?" he discusses how he had developed his own system of meditational practices and when he joined ES and tried the system that was suggested to him, he found his earlier method suited him better. In discussing this he was not revealing any ES secret -- many times people confuse between what is secret and what is not -- since he is not disclosing the details of the specific method. I hope someone who has access to specific information on this issue clarifies it. It would help to clear the fog on the issue. Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:34:27 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Still waiting for Bart's Rply Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125073427.00f50ecc@mail.eden.com> I am still waiting for Bart's response to the following I posted last evening. Ramadoss ========== |Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:28:55 -0500 (EST) |Reply-To: theos-l@vnet.net |From: M K Ramadoss |To: Multiple recipients of list |Subject: Re: Bart's Reply |_______________________________________________________ |At 08:29 PM 1/23/1998 -0500, you wrote: |>M K Ramadoss wrote: |> |>> If anyone else is involved in any manner whatsoever >> (whether described above or not), would he tell us >> who they are and what they contributed (however >> remote or indirect or insignificant) as it would >> be of some interest to some here. > > Well, there is a very simple explanation there. Normally, I just dash off >the email I send to these lists. On this letter, I was careful; I spent about >half an hour on it. > > Bart Lidofsky The following is the whole quote of which some part was deleted in the above reply. Taking all of the following as a *whole*, do you see any need to add/modify the above response to make it accurate and complete. Thanks M K Ramadoss ====================== PS: Bart should be commended for his response. It is perhaps the best written response I have seen among his posts on Internet IMHO: It is an unusually scholarly, very well structured and the diction, style, punctuation, show an extra-ordinary command of and facility with the English language. The ease with which most appropriate vocabulary, phrases and clauses have been used is also outstanding. I am sure many will agree with me. I am curious to find out if he received any help (small or big), any discussion or contribution whatsoever in any shape or form by way of tips, ideas, suggestions, any drafting, editing help etc. from anyone directly or indirectly connected or unconnected with TS (Adyar) (member/officer or not). I would like a simple response from him. If anyone else is involved in any manner whatsoever (whether described above or not), would he tell us who they are and what they contributed (however remote or indirect or insignificant) as it would be of some interest to some here. Again no one should be afraid of facts and truth. M K Ramadoss There is No Religion Higher Than Truth =========================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 05:01:43 -0500 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Power of Internet Message-ID: <34C9BC07.2AC5@dmv.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > I have posted about the enormous impact that Internet is having as a means > of communicating and disseminating information. Now you have one more piece > of evidence of the power of internet. I visited the Washington Post site > and there was a link to www.slate.com which describes the how Net was the > first one to break the Lewinsky story. The story was first posted on the > Drudge Report site in California late last Saturday -- one week ago -- and > the print media did not print it until following Wednesday. > > So one can expect all sorts of information being disseminated for free on > the Internet and it is this free broadcasting worldwide that is going to > make it very difficult to contain information considered sensitive or > embarasssing by organizations. > > Ramadoss Two days ago on an internet brodcast of the Art Bell show people calling in were saying that it was being reported on tv that Clinton was considering a strike against Iraq as a diversionary tactic to take the heat off the scandal. Of course I took this with a grain of salt because of the sensationalist nature of Art's programs, but this morning that story was also reported on CNN. On the morning that it was reported on Art Bell there was no such story on that mornings CNN program or on the NBC broadcast news in Washington, D.C. It is obvious that Clinton has emulated Kennedy, but I think it would be unbeliveable that he would even think about commiting a military error like the Bay of Pigs. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:50:38 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Power of Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125075038.00eafdb4@mail.eden.com> At 08:41 AM 1/25/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> I have posted about the enormous impact that Internet is having as a means >> of communicating and disseminating information. Now you have one more piece >> of evidence of the power of internet. I visited the Washington Post site >> and there was a link to www.slate.com which describes the how Net was the >> first one to break the Lewinsky story. The story was first posted on the >> Drudge Report site in California late last Saturday -- one week ago -- and >> the print media did not print it until following Wednesday. >> >> So one can expect all sorts of information being disseminated for free on >> the Internet and it is this free broadcasting worldwide that is going to >> make it very difficult to contain information considered sensitive or >> embarasssing by organizations. >> >> Ramadoss > >Two days ago on an internet brodcast of the Art Bell show people calling >in were saying that it was being reported on tv that Clinton was >considering a strike against Iraq as a diversionary tactic to take the >heat off the scandal. Of course I took this with a grain of salt because >of the sensationalist nature of Art's programs, but this morning that >story was also reported on CNN. On the morning that it was reported on >Art Bell there was no such story on that mornings CNN program or on the >NBC broadcast news in Washington, D.C. > >It is obvious that Clinton has emulated Kennedy, but I think it would be >unbeliveable that he would even think about commiting a military error >like the Bay of Pigs. > > >Vincent Regular media run by multi-billion dollar corporations have be concerned about legal liability of anything that is put out. That is the reason why many items are reported at all or reported late or reported in an incomplete version. But anyone can post almost anything on the maillists and almost all the posters are individuals many of whom are students or working class non affluent common men and women. What I see is the general opening up as a general trend. For example for a long time in Texas much of the public governmental bodies met behind closed doors and did a lot of things which no one would dare to do today because by law all of them now have to discuss and decide in public. There are very few exceptions like discussing legal matters/legal advise and evaluation of the performance of employees. As for Iraq, the situation is ridiculous. The embargo is not affecting the leadership. It is the common man woman and child who are now suffering. Call it National Karma or whatever. Those who are responsible have to pay the price sometime and you and I may have our share of National Karma for the stand US and UK have been taking so far. Similar is the situation with Cuba. Couple of years ago USA tried to stop India shipping 10,000 tons of rice -- how much rice can Castro eat? Much of the hunger and suffering can be traced to stupid and selfish politics without any concern for the ordinary human being whereever they are on this globe. BTW, live TV has also done a lot to sensitize a lot of people about what is going on around the world. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:27:07 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: Art and spirituality Message-ID: <093964333141918UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> > Of interest to me now is the notion of the SHEKINAH, as the divine feminine > receptical of wisdom and love chained in matter until the redemption > of the unifications of worlds. The Mona Lisa is an example in fine art, > logos such as TOMMY HILFIGER are debased hypnotic forms that hook our > unconsciousness into loving blue jeans and caps, don't ya know? The logo itself doesn't do that. It's all the other glamour built up and associated with it that tries to sway us as people on the desire level. Don't torque yourself out too much about it. You gotta wear something and it's OK to be a person. Enjoy your culture. It's fun. Play with it. Keith: Yeah! En lighten _ UP! The power these images have is real because they represent power, and GLAMOUR. Have you heard of ALice Bailey's GLAMOUR: A WORLD PROBLEM. The title is wonderful and she focuses on the maya of all that is glamourous. But you know what I love it - give me a good fantasy over reality any day. Sometime it is only glamour, the shekinah presense of kindness in the midst of the most grindingly material of situations like war even that give us a reason to go on. But it the abilty of some to manipulate this presense, that is so occult, so frightening. Hitler wanted to be an artist and architect before he found his CALLING! Why did he hate Jews so much? It is o hard to understand. But I have come to believe that he believed they really had the power to pull down the shekinah presense for the purpose of material gain particularly in bankind and entertainment. Oh, this is a sore subject! And I was just about to lighen up. BIG :) Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:36:22 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Still waiting for Bart's Rply Message-ID: <34CB6A06.64EDC4D5@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > I am still waiting for Bart's response to the following I posted last evening. I didn't think one was necessary, but if you insist: The only help, assistance, aid, etc. I received in writing my message to you was the Pegasus Mail spell checker, which found a single incorrectly spelled word (this, of course, does not exclude the possibility that I was involuntarily possessed by a Mahatma, or something on that order. As I did not give permission for possession or channeling, however, I doubt strongly that it happened). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:50:40 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Balance Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-25 01:59:35 EST, you write: >A very good idea. How about selecting some kind of uniformly colored outfit >so that it is easy for us to identify each other? > >mkr That might be going just a bit too far. Besides, no one has any trouble recognizing me, I'm the one in black with the chaos star on his name tag. I'm sure that we would have no trouble finding each other. everyone knows who everyone else at convention is within an hour because there aren't that many people. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:58:51 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Still waiting for Bart's Rply Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-25 11:43:08 EST, you write: >The only help, assistance, aid, etc. I received in writing my message to you >was the Pegasus Mail spell checker, which found a single incorrectly spelled >word >(this, of course, does not exclude the possibility that I was involuntarily >possessed by a Mahatma, or something on that order. As I did not give >permission >for possession or channeling, however, I doubt strongly that it happened). > > Bart Lidofsky > > The Mahatmas rarely channel through people and then they have ask for written permission in triplicate and knock three times on the head of the mouthpiece before doing the actual communication. At least these are the instructions they have in their handbook, The Kobiligan's Rules for Masters, 4th edition, Dharmsalla, 1922, pp 1004-10025. While they are notoriously reticent about letting non-Mahatmas see this book, the Dugpa Library and Research Institute has acquired several copies. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:22:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Still waiting for Bart's Rply Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125132230.0139dd54@mail.eden.com> At 11:43 AM 1/25/1998 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> I am still waiting for Bart's response to the following I posted last evening. > > I didn't think one was necessary, but if you insist: > > The only help, assistance, aid, etc. I received in writing my message to you >was the Pegasus Mail spell checker, which found a single incorrectly spelled word >(this, of course, does not exclude the possibility that I was involuntarily >possessed by a Mahatma, or something on that order. As I did not give permission >for possession or channeling, however, I doubt strongly that it happened). > > Bart Lidofsky > > When I first requested your clarification, you could have just said a simple: No Since you partially quoted my msg, I just wanted to recheck and it does not hurt. Thanks again. Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:17:19 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Sai Baba's "school" Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980125151719.00697394@mail.eden.com> At 12:28 PM 1/25/1998 -0800, you wrote: > > >Ramdas: >[...] >>To the best of my knowledge, Sai Baba does not have a Arcane School. >>Correct me if I am wrong. Giving reasons backed by verifiable factual >>information. > >Whether Bhagavan has an esoteric school or not I do not know. But he >does have very advanced disciples who, for many years, have practiced >tapas in a cave in the Himalayas. They are only 12 or so in number. >They have met many Siddhas -- even the Babaji mentioned by Yogananada. > >See the booklet SAI BABA AND NARA NARAYAN GUFA ASHRAM by Swami >Maheshwaranand. > > >Best, > >-- >Nicholas <> am455@lafn.org <> Los Angeles I did not imply that there were not siddhas who are disciples of Sai Baba. At least I am not aware of a formaly school around the world on the lines of ES or other schools. As for anyone belonging to another *arcane school == school which teached practical exercises*, one can understand the reasoning behind of riding two horses. However, in the Sai Baba case, it is not understandable. That is why I said someone who has official authority has to come out and fix any wrong info/speculation floating around. So far the elected TS(Adyar) leaders have avoided coming out and discussing anything on the TS maillists. This is not going to help TS, IMHO. Internet is not going to go away. On the other hand, more and more people are going to be wired into it and not actively engaging in Internet maillists and newsgroups is missed opportunity, IMHO. BTW, the HQ of ES in USA is at Krotona. When Eldon does his planned presentation at Krotona this month, if he wants, he can inquire about Sai Baba issue and give us the feedback. _______________________________________________________ M K Ramadoss - There is no religion higher than Truth _______________________________________________________ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:53:08 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Freedom Message-ID: In message <199801250504.WAA16677@selway.umt.edu>, JRC writes >... please contemplate the >fact that (according to evidence so far received) at least 3/4, and possibly >as many as 9/10's of the officers and board members of the TS *are* ES >members, and while we *are* free to have this discussion here, we would >*not* be permitted to at Theosophical Headquarters, could not do a >seminar/discussion session about it at a Summer Convention, nor publish even >a word of it in any official publication of the American TS ... and I >believe this fact *profoundly* dishonors the founders - who actually seemed >to believe that the phrase "There is no religion higher than truth" ought to >be *genuinely lived*. I left the TS in England precisely because of this attitude. Some Lodge members wanted serious discussions and studies from the point of view of what later became the Theosophy International approach. In consequence, I was *summarily* dismissed from the committee of my own Lodge (of which I had previously been presient for two consecutive years) and those of us who wished to pursue Truth were obliged to meet separately away from Lodge premises. Most of us left or allowed our membership to lapse in consequence. The committee member who instigated this "purge" was/is an ES member, and although the Gen Sec in England was forced to enter the fray by chairing the Lodge's agm, I was not allowed to be present, as I had transferred my membership to unattached (member at large) as a means of preventing them throwing me out altogether (which was on the cards). The Gen Sec at the time was/is *also* an ES member. Alan the truthseeker --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:58:59 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Still waiting Message-ID: In message , Drpsionic writes >While they are notoriously reticent about letting non-Mahatmas see this book, >the Dugpa Library and Research Institute has acquired several copies. Do they have a website? Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:54:50 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Balance Message-ID: In message <3.0.3.32.19980125004318.00697534@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >>Ok, let's go to convention and summer school and have this discussion openly >>among ourselves and let anyone there dare to try to stop it. Maybe we can't >>do anything official, but we can sure do unoffical things to make the >>sacerdotal caste nervous. >> >>Chuck the Heretic >A very good idea. How about selecting some kind of uniformly colored outfit >so that it is easy for us to identify each other? > >mkr YES! --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:54:04 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Balance Message-ID: In message <3.0.3.32.19980125001755.00fe7828@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >Could it be the fact 9/10 of the officers are ES members may have something >to do with the fact that we have not seen any of them here since the day >this list was launched? I am just wondering? Just wondering? good grief ........ Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:45:47 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Balance Message-ID: In message <199801250504.WAA16677@selway.umt.edu>, JRC writes >Personally, I *believe* the purpose of the TS is the full actualization of >the Three Objects in human civilization; I *hypothesize* (with a >considerable body of evidence to support the hypothesis - my research is >producing some interesting results from unexpected quarters) the existance >of a group of people and a set of attitudes both in and surrounding the >current leadership that are not only not furthering the manifestation of >those Objects, but indeed standing in the way of it; that in *empirical >terms* are slowly but surely *destroying* the TS (we've gone from 6000 to >4000 ... when will people discover there is a crisis ... when we hit 2000? >1000?). In England the TS (Adyar) membership total is now *below* 1000. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:20:59 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Art and spirituality Message-ID: <34CBD6E9.37AB@withoutwalls.com> > Keith: > > Have you heard of ALice Bailey's > GLAMOUR: A WORLD PROBLEM. The title is wonderful and she focuses on the > maya of all that is glamourous. Yep. It's in our library. > Sometime it is only glamour, the shekinah presense of kindness in the midst > of the most grindingly material of situations like war even that give us a > reason to go on. Hmmmm ... the glamour (maya) of kindness (or any good/real quality). There's an interesting idea that'll rattle some cages. But it is the abilty of some to manipulate this presense, that is so occult, so frightening. Boy, you really must want that Hilfiger shirt! Hitler wanted to be an artist and architect before he found his CALLING! Yeah, and he was terrible at it. A hapless amateur. Trust me, I've seen the pictures. Why did he hate Jews so much? It is so hard to understand. But I have come to believe that he believed they really had the power to pull down the Shekinah presense for the purpose of material gain, particularly in banking and entertainment. Oh, this is a sore subject! And I was just about to lighen up. BIG :) There's a plague of frogs and locusts hurtling your way, even as you speak! Better watch out! Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:55:02 -0500 From: jim meier Subject: re: Angkor Wat Message-ID: <199801251955_MC2-30A2-1DDD@compuserve.com> RE: the Cambodian temple complex of Angkor Wat, Mark wrote (clip)... I think I read somewhere (Joesph >Campbell?) that the sculptures are only found on the outside of the >temple walls and a little bit inside. As the worshipper progresses >inward, they gradually dissappear until in the central inner chamber, >there is nothing at all. From ecstatic forms of love to the formless. >What abeautiful idea. {If there isn't a temple like that, someone should >build one.} Angkor is a large complex of temples and buildings, and the largest of these is commonly called Angkor Wat. It was the capital of the ancient Khmer empire and later the seat of Theravada Buddhism in SE Asia. It is presently occupied by armed temple robbers and is located in NW Cambodia, an area heavily mined in the recent conflicts there. This is one of the biggest tragedies in recent times, and local papers carry stories of tourists sniped there every now and again. Contemporary pictures of Angkor when compared with the 1940's photos show that most of it has been desicrated. There *is* a temple more like what you described -- Borobudor in central Java. It is (likely) the archetype for Angkor, and was built around the year 800. It is the largest Buddhist monument, and one of the largest structures of any kind in the world. It is a mountain of large volcanic stones, arranged in a plith (multi-level staircases) and from the air forms a giant mandala. It is designed so that pilgrims walk around each of the five levels, and the life and stories of the Buddha are carved in the meter-high stones that make up the walls and every inch is part of the murals. After the fifth level, there are three concentric circles, the first two with 72 minor stupas containing statues of the Buddha; the third is a solid stupa crowning the mountain. The stupas are made with "windows" showing the statues inside, and these are diamond- shaped on the lower level and block openings on the middle level -- representing that adeptship has "levels of stability," and it is possible to stumble from the path in the early stages (diamonds can be tipped over), less likely to stumble at later stages (one can tip over a square, but it takes more effort) and the final, crowning stupa is solid with no openings at all. Full enlightenment is complete. Buddhism was replaced by Hinduism in Java sometime after the 11th century, and Borobudur was mostly abandoned (as was Angkor). This is the part I find so fascinating -- Borobudur was not only abandoned and overgrown, it was partially buried by volcanos and only excavated early this century (and this is a BIG monument, on top of it's own hill - "pilgrim's walk" around the levels is about 2km in length). To me, the excavation of Borobudur is symbolic of the work we each have to do to reveal that which exists but has been forgotten. Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:23:59 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: All art is spiritual Message-ID: <34CBF3B2.5440@withoutwalls.com> > Keith wrote: > > Erotic art can be of high spirutality, as it is in the East in the > temple of ANGOR WAT for example, wouldn't you say? I tossed and turned last night trying to remember where that Indian temple was. I was referring to Konarak or Khajuraho, not ANGOR WAT, and I also found the quote: >From "Wandering in Eden - Three Ways to the East Within Us." by Michael Adam. © 1973, 1976 Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. Publisher. Pgs 14-16. [Reference is for you, Dallas!] ---------- On the east coast of India at Konarak stands a temple to the Sun as a symbol for the One Principle behind all things, for God. A Victorian critic called this temple "the abomination of India." "Frank pornography." said another, sharing the belief of the Christian who wrote that "an ocean of Carnality within us continually lashes against the shores of our spiritual nature; and these mighty waves of Carnality and Sensuality drown the voice of the Divine within us. The deliverance of the soul from the error of the senses - the lust of the flesh - is salvation." To stand before Konarak or the temples of Khajuraho with such a mind is to be horrified. These are temples avowedly raised to the glory of God and their walls are carved with blatantly erotic figures, men and women in all imaginable ways of coupling, and some unimaginable ones. That a house of God should so unashamedly celebrate the lust of the flesh, the delight of the eyes, and the pride of life is shocking to western moralists. These stone libertines are not shown here as the gargoyles and grimacing monsters of our cathedrals; they are not outsiders or only decorative additions; they are the very walls of the temples. The wish to celebrate shaped these figures; they acclaim the part of the body in the play of things. There is no shame here. It may be the lack of shame that shames us. So many western critics have halted at the lower half of these figures, have concentrated on genitalia; they have not been able to see the whole figures, certainly they have not seen the faces, blissful, smiling, calm. The figures are sexually active, but they are not obsessed; thay are at ease; they are in the world but not of it; they play. This appearance of lively activity about a hub of calm is characteristic of Indian images; the "still point" is shown together with the "turning world." It is also the character of Indian architecture. The erotic carvings crowd the outer walls. As one walks into the temple itself, the images are found to be sensual still and full of grace, as befits the dancers and celestial musicians they represent, but the more obvious eroticism is absent. The figures stand alone. As one moves deeper into the heart of the temple, the figures grow fewer. In some temples they vanish, to be replaced by a tracery of vines and flower motifs, sometimes abstracted wholly. Increasingly in this way, the pilgrim was led to leave the world of living forms behind and to approach the spirit of those forms, the mystery of love and life itself. He enters a further chamber where all noise of the world is shut off; very little light penetrates. Here, gone beyond all gods and other men, he pauses to ready himself for the final step. Then, still and as nothing; that is to say, when he is himself in the image of God, he strides into the center of the temple and the heart of himself. It is dark. The four walls are bare. The cell shows nothing. Nothing. All imagery and representation is not only impossible now, but even misleading; it is Maya. Here is Nothingness. Here is what the Hindus call Immensity; what the Buddhists call the Void, what the Christian mystic Eckhart intended when he spoke of God as The Absolute Nothing, and was excommunicated for it. >From the blatant images of sexual union on the temple sides to the silent inner core there is a progression of sorts: from sensuous form to the ultimate abstraction which the image-making mind can only call Nothingness; beyond all concepts to the experience of a Reality that cannot be conceived, cannot be formulated, shaped, or spoken. But "progress" in the West implies improvement, a movement to something nobler; a scale of values is implied. Progress in the East is a matter of growth, from crude representation to abstraction, from gross to subtle forms of manifestation. But it is the same principle that is manifest. The walls of these temples were carved with the sculptor's care and delight in forms, but the temples as a whole were conceived, planned, and constructed under the direction of priests who, celibate and austere themselves, saw it only fit that a building to celebrate the Creative Principle should include all aspects of creation. Everything has its part to play, its time and its place. So in the sunlight that bathes the outer walls there is sex unashamed; at the center there is silence, darkness, stillness, Nothingness. The Way of Indian art is not one of blind sensuality, as its detractors insist, nor only of "spirituality," as its defenders say. It is a whole way; neither obsession with the world, nor withdrawl from it. It is being in the world, lightly, with a little smile. In that smile lies the secret of this art, as of love and of life itself. Understandably we are haunted by that smile wherever we meet it, in archaic images of Egypt and Chaldea, of China and Japan, in the angels of Rheims -- Angels, it is said, are able to fly because they take themselves so lightly. ---------- Too cool. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:41:33 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Still waiting Message-ID: <52bc4941.34cc3e2f@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-25 18:42:07 EST, you write: >Do they have a website? > >Alan :-) www.dugpa.com Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:02:45 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Still waiting Message-ID: In message <52bc4941.34cc3e2f@aol.com>, Drpsionic writes >>Do they have a website? >> >>Alan :-) > >www.dugpa.com > >Chuck the Heretic 404 not available on this server - the censors gete everywhere. [new subscribers: this is a merry jest] [I hope] Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:51:02 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome Message-ID: <7wOvVPA2cPz0EwEa@nellie2.demon.co.uk> THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL welcomes Paulette of New Zealand. (Not yet on mailing lists). Paulette has been a TS member (somewhat inactive) for 12 years. Personal welcomes to: paulette@ix.net.nz Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:27:35 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Talk about ES Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980127072735.00e8321c@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting msg. Ramadoss ================= >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:48:09 GMT >From: dewberry@poboxes.com (Bee Brown) >Subject: Re: Theos-World ES On Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:13:12 EST, you wrote: >v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v > >I have met some ES members down through the years, though I am unconnected. I >never met one that was not very nice..perhaps even sweet >and compassionate. Yet I have met over seven or eight such members. I am also not connected with the ES but at our recent NZ Convention, the head of the NZ ES spoke to us about it as most members there asked him to do so. Robert Ellwood was our guest speaker and he expressed appreciation for the info that had not been available to him before. It made the reasons for not making a lot of noise about ES clearer and that it was not arrogance or exclusiveness that caused a certain sense of secretness. The attitude of non ES members can be rather hurtful when no insults are intended. I, personally understand better and will just let them get on with it as over here, there is no worry about them taking over the TS or unduly interfering in it. No doubt larger countries have different situations to us small fry over here. Cheers Bee > >These seemed to be making efforts to 'be all they can be" >and were certain that the ES could enrich their paths as >well as their advancement in their esoteric studies. > >Whether it does or not is of no real consequence, only >that I do not feel that arrogance is widespread in the ES >Members from what I was able to observe. Some of >these were very wonderful people...some were just >enclyopaedias of information ...just depended upon >the individual. > >-Sage From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:30:58 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980127073058.00e85e30@mail.eden.com> May be one of the good topics for the next Annual Meeting? Anyone from Wheaton listening? Ramadoss =========================== I am also not connected with the ES but at our recent NZ Convention, the head of the NZ ES spoke to us about it as most members there asked him to do so. Robert Ellwood was our guest speaker and he expressed appreciation for the info that had not been available to him before. It made the reasons for not making a lot of noise about ES clearer and that it was not arrogance or exclusiveness that caused a certain sense of secretness. The attitude of non ES members can be rather hurtful when no insults are intended. I, personally understand better and will just let them get on with it as over here, there is no worry about them taking over the TS or unduly interfering in it. No doubt larger countries have different situations to us small fry over here. Cheers Bee > >These seemed to be making efforts to 'be all they can be" >and were certain that the ES could enrich their paths as >well as their advancement in their esoteric studies. > >Whether it does or not is of no real consequence, only >that I do not feel that arrogance is widespread in the ES >Members from what I was able to observe. Some of >these were very wonderful people...some were just >enclyopaedias of information ...just depended upon >the individual. > >-Sage > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:51:20 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: <34CDF468.48994ECF@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > May be one of the good topics for the next Annual Meeting? > > Anyone from Wheaton listening? Actually, I am reasonably certain that nobody from Wheaton is listening. There is a skill involved in reading active lists and newsgroups, to quickly determine whether or message is relevant or not (BTW, the more unnecessary quoting, the longer the determination takes, a result being a premature tossing of a message that contains so much quoting that the original content is difficult to find). This list, in particular, requires a heavy use of that skill to avoid having it take up too much of one's day (typing at 80 wpm also helps). From my discussions with people at Wheaton, it is just not worth their time to read this list, especially considering the frequency with which they are attacked with difficult to defend accusations (try to prove that you're NOT a despoiler of young goats!). While I see that the frequency of these accusations have decreased in the past months, virtually all the people at Wheaton had already stopped reading the list. Some MAY be reading theos-world, however, though my suggestion is that rather than quote this message to theos-world, you put it in your own words, as your own suggestion. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:15:10 -0700 From: "John R. Crocker" Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: <001901bd2b36$7f407140$17338396@lo201c.registrar.umt.edu> >From my discussions >with people at Wheaton, it is just not worth their time to read this list, >especially considering the frequency with which they are attacked with >difficult to defend accusations (try to prove that you're NOT a despoiler >of young goats!). Especially if you despoil them. Many of the attacks have foundation - issues are raised on topics that Wheaton completely avoids in their public publications. It *is* difficult to defend oneself from accusations that are *true*. In the non-profit's I've worked for, for instance, a membership decline of one third in less than a decade, especially with membership this small, would be considered a *serious* crisis, the sign of a fundamental failure on the part of the leadership - and would (in fact *has* in several) cause a complete change of leadership. I'm not suprised little is made of the issue in the official publications, and that Wheaton would most certainly avoid this list - where they actually might be called into account for such things - and perhaps read another list where all is light and rosiness and the most serious issue raised concerns the minutae of the "Doctrine of Karma". -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:18:40 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: We should live so long! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:20:14 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: <6a5aa9d4.34ce2560@aol.com> In a message dated 98-01-27 10:00:31 EST, you write: >(try to prove that you're NOT a despoiler >of young goats! Damn, the one thing I've never done! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:47:48 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980127184748.00d72ec4@mail.eden.com> At 01:33 PM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >We should live so long! > >Chuck the Heretic > Till next incarnation! Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:24:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Info Message-ID: <34CE429A.270F@eden.com> He who hath eyes can open it and see. He who hath ears can hear if only listens. He who hath enthusiasm shall act. He who is lazy can find excuses and let him rest and relax and enjoy. Anon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:59:07 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980127225907.00d678f0@mail.eden.com> At 10:20 AM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote: >>From my discussions >>with people at Wheaton, it is just not worth their time to read this list, >>especially considering the frequency with which they are attacked with >>difficult to defend accusations (try to prove that you're NOT a despoiler >>of young goats!). > >Especially if you despoil them. Many of the attacks have foundation - issues >are raised on topics that Wheaton completely avoids in their public >publications. It *is* difficult to defend oneself from accusations that are >*true*. In the non-profit's I've worked for, for instance, a membership >decline of one third in less than a decade, especially with membership this >small, would be considered a *serious* crisis, the sign of a fundamental >failure on the part of the leadership - and would (in fact *has* in several) >cause a complete change of leadership. I'm not suprised little is made of >the issue in the official publications, and that Wheaton would most >certainly avoid this list - where they actually might be called into account >for such things - and perhaps read another list where all is light and >rosiness and the most serious issue raised concerns the minutae of the >"Doctrine of Karma". -JRC > I want to add some facts. Almost all the subscribers here use their own time, their own computers and their own money to connect to Internet and take time to read all the messages and respond. Why do they do it? Because of their deep interest in Theosophy they are driven by their enthusiasm. They are not doing it because they are being paid by someone to do it as a job. I think it is in the interests of TS to keep track of what is going on/happening in the Internet world. Maillists and newsgroups are very powerful inexpensive tools of communication; more powerful than print and other media have been in the past. If private citizens like us can find spare time and interest to read and post messages, surely an organization with a large budget could find resources to monitor Internet and maillists and respond. May be someone at Wheaton will meditate over this problem and get some ideas to see how it can be done. Let us also remind ourselves where our roots are. We have TS and Theosophy today because of the enthusiasm and interest of three individuals -- HPB, HSO and Judge and they were driven by the intense enthusiasm and interest and it is the efforts of a handful of people that has yielded results. They were not working 8-5 M-F. Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:08:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theosophical Info Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980128170800.00de4dd0@mail.eden.com> Please see the following msg which is self-explanatory. MKR ========================================= >Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:48:45 -0500 >From: John Patrick Deveney >Subject: Updates and New Additions to Theosophical History Webpage The Theosophical History webpage has been updated and a great deal of new and exciting material added!! Check out: http://idt.net/~pdeveney/index.html --The current issue of Theosophical History journal, Volume VII/1, January 1998, is almost available, with articles and comments by Jean Overton Fuller, Dan Merkur, Alan Donant and others. --Theosophical History Occasional Papers, Volume VI is now available: Astral Projection or Liberation of the Double and the Work of the Early Theosophical Society, by John Patrick Deveney --The full text of the Forewards by James A. Santucci to the Astral Projection monograph and to earlier Occasional Papers by Govert Schüller and Jean-Louis Siémons have been uploaded to the webpage, together with the Editor's Comments to VI/8 and an original contribution by Professor Santucci on Women in the TS Movement. -- The email addresses of several notable scholars in the field have been added to the list of Collaborators and Colleagues of the journal, including Daniel Caracostea and Wouter Hanegraaff. This a convenient way to exchange information and thoughts with others in the area. If you have a scholarly interest in the field, send us your email address and interests for posting. --The Table of Contents of Volume VI (1996-1997) of the journal, prepared by Daniel Caracostea of Paris, has been added to the webpage--a very helpful tool for research. --The formal announcement and call for papers for the Edmonton Theosophical Society's conference in Edmonton in July 1998 has been added. Check out the page now, and don't hesitate to send in your comments, Notes & Queries, and contributions to pdeveney@kcdlaw.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:46:31 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: In message <34CDF468.48994ECF@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >(try to prove that you're NOT a despoiler >of young goats!). I have three dozen young goats ready to testify .... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:47:18 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: In message <6a5aa9d4.34ce2560@aol.com>, Drpsionic writes >In a message dated 98-01-27 10:00:31 EST, you write: > >>(try to prove that you're NOT a despoiler >>of young goats! > >Damn, the one thing I've never done! > >Chuck the Heretic Perhaps they don't like *old* goats? Alan (tee-hee) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:28:09 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Wheaton? Message-ID: A thought occured to me as I thought about the exchange between doss and Bart - doss saying Wheaton was remiss in never having spoken or explained itself on these lists, and Bart saying they probably didn't even look at the lists because of the extent of time it takes and the extent of the negativity aginst them. If this is indeed *true* it would be extremely unusual. I can't think of *any* leader of any organization I've ever known ... public sector, private sector, or non-profit, holding a position appointed or elected, that did *not* pay attention to the sentiment about them ... many will *say* they don't, either personally or through agency of their supporters, but this is generally a way of trying to minimize or invalidate their critics (its why incumbants in offices almost never want to debate, and those trying to unseat them almost always do ... regardless of what the specific points of the criticism are, the incumbant will always want to seem "above" any debates). There *is*, though, a fairly fundamental fact of human nature ... and that is that people almost can't *help* but want to pay attention to what others say about them. If John Algeo and others at Wheaton do not have at least someone monitoring the theos lists it would really be an extremely unusual event, almost unprecedented in 20th public life. And the idea that it was *because* of the volume of criticism that Wheaton remains silent, or doesn't even pay attention to the lists, just doesn't wash. I've been on a couple of the lists almost from the very beginning, and at first any criticism (and it was relatively rare) was if anything quite mild ... though now and then someone *would* inquire about why Wheaton was or was not doing something. But Wheaton *NEVER*, in my experience, has responded to a single request, even for information (and this was even in the days when it didn't mask its email addresses, and simply appeared directly on the list review command). My own opinion is that the silence is probably due to one remarkable difference between this forum and all other arenas in which the Wheaton leadership can exist: *It cannot control communications*. In its publications, for instance, it can report membership numbers, but needn't point anything out, needn't mention trends (curious how the numbers that *join* are reported, but not those that *lapse*), and can simply not print any letter to the editor that tries to bring it up. The *minute* it commented on even *one* issue ... it would be at risk ... it would mean that refusing to answer any other questions was an act of *a leadership delibrately ignoring its dues-paying members* - and much that is brought up here *couldn't* be answered - not because of innocence that has a hard time explaining itself, but because of those curious bleating noises heard around the Wheaton grounds (-:). How *could* membership be explained? Wheaton would either have to say it was deeply worried about the membership decline, and had *failed* in its efforts (which know ones seems to be aware of) to solve the retention problem, or it would have to say that it simply *didn't care*. It could only be one or the other. However, I'm not sure which is more disturbing ... the thought that Wheaton *does* pay attention to the lists and delibrately ignores all requests for participation, or the (highly unlikely) thought that it *doesn't* have any awareness of these lists ... which would mean that the leadership of an (alledgedly) *democratic* non-profit society believed it not only had no responsibility to answer the thoughts and feelings of the members that elected them and pay *dues* to them, but indeed felt as though it had no responsibility to even be *aware* of them - and in fact *delibrately avoided* awareness. Ah well, its close to being a moot point. This is the last generation that will even have the possibility of controlling communication, of trying to ignore, or pretend to ignore, the Internet. Curious fact - while the TS membership has declined dramatically - by close to a third of its membership in less than a decade - I notice that *this list* is now over 150 ... still small in absolute numbers, but nonetheless an *increase* of just short of *50%* in less than a couple of years. Lux et Veritas, -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:18:10 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: In a message dated 98-01-27 20:34:03 EST, you write: >Perhaps they don't like *old* goats? > >Alan (tee-hee) Well, that would explain you. :) :) Chuck the Giggling Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:23:53 EST From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Wheaton? Message-ID: An interesting observation. I have never, ever believed the assertion that no one at HQ reads this list. On the contrary, the indications I get is that it is followed almost with the fervor of Hillary Clinton getting some peculiar voyeuristic thrills at the behavior of her husband. It is a simple matter to subscribe from a virtually anonymous account and lurk. Or there can be any number of people close to the powers that be that get the digest version and then forward it to the folks at HQ so as to leave them looking completely innocent. Chuck the Heretic. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:31:50 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: Wheaton? Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Drpsionic wrote: > I have never, ever believed the assertion that no one at HQ reads this list. > On the contrary, the indications I get is that it is followed almost with the > fervor of Hillary Clinton getting some peculiar voyeuristic thrills at the > behavior of her husband. Actually ... I'm also quite certain that the list is well monitored by the Wheaton leadership - and its almost ridiculous to think otherwise. Whether one agrees with their *ends* or not, their *means* are unashamedly political ... and they are there because they are relatively *good* at politics (or at least haven't had to face any significant challenge) ... and *no one* even partially succeeds at that game without monitoring places where opposition exists (and in fact usually trying to plant people and ideas in such forums). > It is a simple matter to subscribe from a virtually anonymous account and > lurk. Or there can be any number of people close to the powers that be that > get the digest version and then forward it to the folks at HQ so as to leave > them looking completely innocent. Shucks Chuck its even easier than that - around ten of the members on the current list of subscribers are "Concealed". -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:56:02 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Wheaton? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980128075602.00f69d38@mail.eden.com> >On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Drpsionic wrote: >> I have never, ever believed the assertion that no one at HQ reads this list. >> On the contrary, the indications I get is that it is followed almost with the >> fervor of Hillary Clinton getting some peculiar voyeuristic thrills at the >> behavior of her husband. > Actually ... I'm also quite certain that the list is well >monitored by the Wheaton leadership - and its almost ridiculous to think >otherwise. Whether one agrees with their *ends* or not, their *means* are >unashamedly political ... and they are there because they are relatively >*good* at politics (or at least haven't had to face any significant >challenge) ... and *no one* even partially succeeds at that game without >monitoring places where opposition exists (and in fact usually trying to >plant people and ideas in such forums). That is very good news. If the monitoring is true, what is very sad is that when more than a year ago, there were some allegation against Adyar past/present president(s) which were factually wrong, no one from the US leadership came to present the real facts set the facts right. I took upon myself to post a detailed msg on theos-l giving the facts. I also printed a copy and sent it to the International President and in my cover letter I did point out that *no* *one* but myself came to present the facts. Later I got a thank you note from her. One person also volunteered to try to print it and try to post it on the bulletin board at Wheaton. I don't know what came out of it. The bottom line is still simple. Are the maillists and newsgroup being used by TS effectively? The answer is simply no. By not engaging in them the great opportunity is being missed. _______________________________________________________ M K Ramadoss - There is no religion higher than Truth _______________________________________________________ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:35:50 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: THEOS-L digest 1402 Message-ID: >In a message dated 98-01-27 10:00:31 EST, you write: > >>(try to prove that you're NOT a despoiler >>of young goats! > >Damn, the one thing I've never done! > >Chuck the Heretic I don't have any idea what the lot of you are talking about, but why don't you just change the pattern? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:13:24 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: >May be someone at Wheaton will meditate over this problem and get >some ideas to see how it can be done. > >Ramadoss > I'll try to meditate over this problem very very very seriously and all in a but absolutly perfect Buddhistic way but mind you out of a little experience I learned that this will take ages and ages and ages! I am absolutely convinced that when I come back out of the meditation, the problem is solved out, simply because it doesn't exist anymore - it's so to say the nostalgic way to solve out a problem. What do you think of it? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:41:37 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980128154137.00d6bc58@mail.eden.com> At 10:17 AM 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >>May be someone at Wheaton will meditate over this problem and get >>some ideas to see how it can be done. >> >>Ramadoss >> >I'll try to meditate over this problem very very very seriously and all in >a but absolutly perfect Buddhistic way but mind you out of a little experience >I learned that this will take ages and ages and ages! > >I am absolutely convinced that when I come back out of the meditation, >the problem is solved out, simply because it doesn't exist anymore - it's >so to say the nostalgic way to solve out a problem. > >What do you think of it? > >Nicole > Time solves most problems. I agree with you. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:08:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theosophical Info Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980128170800.00de4dd0@mail.eden.com> Please see the following msg which is self-explanatory. MKR ========================================= >Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:48:45 -0500 >From: John Patrick Deveney >Subject: Updates and New Additions to Theosophical History Webpage The Theosophical History webpage has been updated and a great deal of new and exciting material added!! Check out: http://idt.net/~pdeveney/index.html --The current issue of Theosophical History journal, Volume VII/1, January 1998, is almost available, with articles and comments by Jean Overton Fuller, Dan Merkur, Alan Donant and others. --Theosophical History Occasional Papers, Volume VI is now available: Astral Projection or Liberation of the Double and the Work of the Early Theosophical Society, by John Patrick Deveney --The full text of the Forewards by James A. Santucci to the Astral Projection monograph and to earlier Occasional Papers by Govert Schüller and Jean-Louis Siémons have been uploaded to the webpage, together with the Editor's Comments to VI/8 and an original contribution by Professor Santucci on Women in the TS Movement. -- The email addresses of several notable scholars in the field have been added to the list of Collaborators and Colleagues of the journal, including Daniel Caracostea and Wouter Hanegraaff. This a convenient way to exchange information and thoughts with others in the area. If you have a scholarly interest in the field, send us your email address and interests for posting. --The Table of Contents of Volume VI (1996-1997) of the journal, prepared by Daniel Caracostea of Paris, has been added to the webpage--a very helpful tool for research. --The formal announcement and call for papers for the Edmonton Theosophical Society's conference in Edmonton in July 1998 has been added. Check out the page now, and don't hesitate to send in your comments, Notes & Queries, and contributions to pdeveney@kcdlaw.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:19:31 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Old Goats Message-ID: >In a message dated 98-01-27 20:34:03 EST, you write: > >>Perhaps they don't like *old* goats? >> >>Alan (tee-hee) > >Well, that would explain you. :) :) > >Chuck the Giggling Heretic Tee-hee-hee.:o) Okay, Chucky, you've gained back your unpredictability. Alan, you've never lost it. I've had a few chuckles. I'm still in my prime so I can laugh at both of you old goats! My apologies to anyone on this list that I should be responding to. I've been speed reading but too busy to think and respond appropriately. I'm doing too many things and not one very well. I stopped apologizing because it's getting redundant. I will just pop in and out when time permits. Last apology, I hope. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:32:37 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: >At 10:17 AM 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>May be someone at Wheaton will meditate over this problem and get >>>some ideas to see how it can be done. >>> >>>Ramadoss >>> >>I'll try to meditate over this problem very very very seriously and all in >>a but absolutly perfect Buddhistic way but mind you out of a little experience >>I learned that this will take ages and ages and ages! >> >>I am absolutely convinced that when I come back out of the meditation, >>the problem is solved out, simply because it doesn't exist anymore - it's >>so to say the nostalgic way to solve out a problem. >> >>What do you think of it? >> >>Nicole >> > >Time solves most problems. I agree with you. > >mkr Or, as Krisnamurti said, stay in the present, get rid of your memory (as much as possible). Staying in the present will help you start everything anew, instead of holding grudges. This will also help you to think of fresh solutions to old problems. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:39:34 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Wheaton? Message-ID: <34CF8976.A60E16B@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > A thought occured to me as I thought about the exchange between doss and > Bart - doss saying Wheaton was remiss in never having spoken or explained > itself on these lists, and Bart saying they probably didn't even look at > the lists because of the extent of time it takes and the extent of the > negativity aginst them. If it were mere negativity, then there probably would not be a problem. But when it reaches a point where when someone at Wheaton says, "Have a nice day", a dozen people are suddenly searching the statement with the assumption that there is some sinister, evil intent behind it, then it is better to ignore the criticism than it is to answer it. As I have said before, this level of arbitrary negativity has been a lot less lately, but it still exists. Let's take the current discussion on the evil, sinister, Esoteric Section exercising its evil control over the TS. Work in the governing bodies of the TS is hard and thankless, so one must have a certain kind of dedication to be willing to take on that work. I would not be surprised if the type of person who joins the ES is the type of person willing to take on this work, and in fact believe that this is why there is such a high degree of overlap. Yet, if this is the case, then to even deny the charges being brought up would be to, to a certain extent, give them credence. Therefore, it is better to just ignore the charges than it is to answer them. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:37:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS Electioneering/Politiking Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980128223730.00670544@mail.eden.com> Here is an excerpt I posted about a year ago. I am reposting as some may find it interesting. mkr >Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 02:02:05 -0500 (EST) >From: M K Ramadoss >Subject: TS Elections - An Excerpt The following is an excerpt from "Is This Theosophy?" by Ernest Wood which gives a good account of how Arundale's election was electioneered/politiked. Enjoy the msg. GOOD-BYE, PROUD WORLD ! -- Ernest Wood MY wife and I settled down from our wanderings in our little house at Adyar. In 1930 I acted as Treasurer as well as Secretary, as in that year Mr. Schwarz took a year's leave to visit Switzerland, his native land. In correspondence with Dr. Besant, who went to Europe, I conducted the business of the Society, held meetings and edited the Adyar Theosophist. The Theosophist had been removed to America, because it could be carried on better from there; but shortly afterwards the Adyar Theosophist was started to replace it at Adyar, to satisfy a condition in Colonel Olcott's will. When Bishop Leadbeater returned to live again at Adyar at the end of 1930, not knowing that Dr. Besant had said in Chicago that the magazine had been transferred to America by Master's orders, he brought forth a statement from the Masters that it should be returned to Adyar, as it had never been their desire that it should be removed from there. I also found time to continue my Sanskrit studies for several hours every day, reading with a number of pandits in succession the original source books of all the principal darshanas (views) or schools of Hindu philosophy. After what I had been through I was immensely impressed by the straightforwardness and thoroughness of the Indian philosophers. Their very quality of honesty makes them tedious reading for most people, but I could conceive nothing more agreeable than their method, according to which each writer collects together all the possible arguments against his own view and systematically demolishes them, with argument and counter-argument, bringing in every implication and side-issue that he can think of. No suppressio veri here. Advocacy, yes, clear and decisive, but always the position that the reader is to be the judge of truth, and is to be provided by the writer with every bit of information or of thought which may bear on the subject. It is curious that the very completeness of old Hindu thought has brought about some apparent inactivity of the modern Hindus in that direction. India is full of philosophers, but they do not rush into print with every new thought that strikes them. They know that generally it is a very old thought, and that it has already been well presented for those who are sufficiently interested to take the trouble to read. And he who will not take the trouble to read and think is not worth bothering about there can be no kindergarten in philosophy. I found something of the same attitude towards art in Athens. It was obvious that the Greeks are still philosophers and artists. Yet they do not display it. On visiting the museums in Athens I put to some friends the question: " Why do you not do these things now ? " The answer was: " Why should we ? We cannot improve upon these." Thousands upon thousands of exquisite shapes continued their unwinking millennial gaze at us from the shelves of the museums, and seemed to add a conclusive note to the argument. But my wife and I were not Greeks. We took the trouble to collect nearly fifty specimens of Greek pottery to take back with us to India - what a trouble, taking these as passengers' luggage through Cyprus, Palestine and Egypt- some of them bought from village potters by the roadsides, some of them ancient pieces from Athens and Kyrenia. It was an unusual collection of things that we accumulated in our little house at Adyar, for side by side with Greek and Oriental and South American pottery and Buddhist sculpture there reposed my collection of paper weights - stones from everywhere, from the pyramids of Egypt and the bathing beach of Limassol, to " the Chilliwack potato" and quartz from the Himalayas bearing shining traces and sometimes more than traces of rare metals all picked up in rambles in the wild. Always fond of nature and of architecture, in the midst of our groves of banyans and bamboos, and flowering trees and palms, I decorated our house with Spanish and Greek gardens, with oriental patios and fountains and tanks of goldfish. We brought the goldfish ourselves from Cyprus by hand, and they gave us no little trouble on the way. When we were trying to enter a train from Alexandria to go to Cairo the Egyptian officials stopped us, saying: " No live stock allowed on the train." We disputed whether goldfish were live stock or not, but a local friend knew a better way, and after a little whispering in a corner the goldfish were allowed to continue their journey, no one caring further whether they were alive or dead, since certain small discs of life-supporting matter had gone to enhance the life of its recipient. On the Italian boat from Port Said to Bombay the authorities were good enough to furnish the goldfish with a bath-tub, and on the train from Bombay to Madras they reposed in another bath-tub in the bathroom without even the cognizance of the authorities. Still, the most charming addition to our house was my wife's collection of animals her tame mongoose and monkey, and her deer and peacock, for which I made an enclosed Japanese garden, with proper artificial mountain, and stepping-stones, and stone lanterns and statues, and an irregular pond complete with red lacquered bridge and a fountain in the centre. With these she refreshed herself in the intervals of her work for village schools and trade unions and co-operative stores. But I must not linger to detail these things. I will only say that the mother mongoose probably saved my life on one occasion, when she pulled out a big snake that was hiding in my bed and dispatched it on the floor. She would play charmingly, too, pretending that my wrist was a snake and performing her unique feat of coiling into a ball and jumping from the middle of her back with the force of her uncoiling. She loved to sleep with human company except when her babies came from time to time. Mongooses never have more than two babies at a time, but once ours had three. Someone else had a little baby mongoose and she happened to catch sight of it. At once she pounced upon it and carried it away upstairs to a little den which she had under the roof, and for some time thereafter she ran about trailing three youngsters instead of two. At the end of 1930 Dr. Besant returned from Europe in broken health, and never recovered. Her memory with regard to material affairs had been failing a little for some time. It was not unnatural at her advanced age - she was eighty-five-and would not have seemed so pathetic had not a few devotees who looked after her physically tried to hide the facts of her decline. She spent her time in reading and quiet reflection, they announced, and was really doing more work than ever before by radiating beneficial forces upon the world. But the fact was she did not attend to the practical work any more because she could not. The Society was carried on by the officers (the Vice-President came over from America) and the Executive Committee. The last business transaction I did for her was the purchase of a Ford car. Three times she told me to buy it- twice after it had been bought. Before completing the purchase I asked her if she had no objection to going about in a Ford instead of a Rolls-Royce. Her reply was characteristic: " I shall be proud to co-operate with Mr. Ford, even in this small way." Afterwards, some devotees persuaded her that it was not dignified for her to ride in a Ford. She called me: " I have decided not to buy that car." I explained that it was already done. "What do you mean," she demanded imperiously, "by buying a car without my orders ? " She had forgotten. I had not the heart to tell her that her memory was at fault. I apologized for the "misunderstanding," and by a stroke of luck sold the car without loss the next day. In I93I Dr. Besant made a new will. In it she directed that her living quarters (the traditional residence of the President of the Society) should as far as possible be left in their then condition, as a sort of shrine, and put in the custody of the Outer Head of the Esoteric (Eastern) School of Theosophy. This was quite contrary to her earlier character, and contrary to the scrupulous regard which she had always had for the property of the Society, for the E.S. was a separate organization, and she had always before carefully distinguished it from the Society. From about that time her strength gradually declined, without specific disease or pain, until she died in the September of 1933 ~and was cremated with great pomp and ceremony at Adyar. A few years earlier I would have considered severance from Dr. Besant a great calamity. Now it was a relief, for really Annie Besant had left us years before. In these last years her few utterances were almost confined to expressions of anxiety lest the Society become " crystallized." In the Convention of I93I she appeared for a few minutes, and then for a brief moment she recovered her former fire, and flung to us again the heroic message that each should seek the divine within himself and never in any external place or form. That statement was of a piece with a birthday resolution which she had written down on the preceding first of October: "I will patiently try to tune my daily life into fuller harmony with that of the divine Master who lives within my heart." It was quite contrary, in my opinion, to the outlook and methods of the group led by Bishop Leadbeater, which grasped her name for their activities and beliefs, and afterwards indeed went so far as to claim the word Theosophy for these and deny it to the views of Krishnamurti and others agreeing with him. Krishnamurti unconsciously helped them in this, for he spoke often against " your theosophy." Theosophy had become identified in his eyes with the operations of what was really a sect, inasmuch as it claimed evolutionary advantages (the modern equivalent of heavenly rewards) for those who believed in it, and had " sufficient intuition " to follow and obey its leaders. My own last conversations with Dr. Besant were saddening, they revealed so intimately the pathos of all material greatness. She could speak only of the " little fairies," and wonder why so many pretty little animals died so young. Her loving heart was never impaired by her decline in other respects. It shone all the brightier when she was released from material affairs. The world overcame her. It broke her strength and her mind, but it could not stain her heart, though it were betrayed by many a kiss. Now commenced a painful period for me. As Secretary of the Theosophical Society I had to call for nominations and to conduct the election to the office of President - a process which was to take nine months, since the electors were scattered all over the world. Sure that if I were President the Society would not be one thing in the proscenium and another behind the scenes, many members requested me to accept nominations. I did so, and on the same day resigned from the office of Hon. Secretary. Only one other nomination came in - that of Bishop Arundale - and he had the great advantage of me that he claimed to be the candidate wanted by Dr. Besant and her Master, though she had left no evidence to that effect, but had on the contrary repeatedly declined to express an opinion or do anything that might influence the members with reference to her possible successor. It had happened that seven years earlier she had accepted for a time an occult statement made to her that Bishop Arundale was to be her successor, and in two private and very affectionate letters to him (in which she said she did not wish to miss any hint of the Master's desire) she mentioned it said she thought he would make a splendid President and advised him to begin some pre-electioneering in America. These old letters, with others, Bishop Arundale gave to Mr. Jinarajadasa shortly before the death of Dr. Besant, and Mr. Jinarajadasa circulated facsimiles of them as a first move in his election campaign on behalf of his nominee, Bishop Arundale. In reply to this some members who had been closely in touch with Dr. Besant requested the President pro tem, Mr. A. P. Warrington, to prevent backstairs propaganda by printing Dr. Besant's letters and also their own testimony to her later views, in fairness to the electorate. But he declined to publish anything more than the names of the candidates, and would not allow me a statement of policy, even in the paid advertisement pages of the magazine. We then had the extraordinary spectacle of a great worldwide Society conducting its presidential election (which was of the nature of a referendum on policy) with no statements published in the presidential magazine - in which the business affairs of the Society had always theretofore been published - and no publication of the electoral roll. The Society was thus delivered into the hands of other organizations, for Mr. Jinarajadasa had the advantage of possessing lists of active workers in the Eastern School and other movements to whom to send out his circulars. Those enthusiasts could be relied upon to do all the necessary propaganda among the members of the Society all over the world. Mr. Jinarajadasa followed up with one circular letter after another. With reference to my memorial lecture on ``Dr. Annie Besant and the Theosophical Movement " he circulated and supported an electioneering canard to the effect that in it I had made a studied depreciation of her. He did not quote a single word of the lecture nor allude to my refutation of the canard in the Indian newspaper which first printed it. He misrepresented my policy, ignoring my manifesto, and only one of the General Secretaries in various countries who printed his letters gave me an opportunity to reply. At last came a circular saying that supporters of Professor Wood - acting no doubt under instructions - accused Dr. Besant of misuse of funds. A French lady had so written to him. He circulated her statement in lands as widespread as Europe, India and Australia, with his own testimony to Dr. Besant's honesty. - That was going too far. I insisted upon a public explanation, which was ultimately forthcoming - too late, however, to repair the damage done. Though I could forgive him for the harm repair the damage done. Though I could forgive him for the harm done to my name among Theosophists and also for thus depriving me of many votes, my regard for Dr. Besant made it impossible for me to forget that some of this mud flung round the world would surely stick to her. Thus the election which ought to have been a courtly record of policy and opinion - a manifestation of brotherhood in a society established "to form a nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity" - degenerated into something worse than any political election I have ever known. Alas, that every experiment in brotherhood should fail, on reaching a modicum of material prosperity. Since Krishnamurti's announcement that he would have no disciples, and that he disapproved the methods prevailing in the Society, there had been a stream of resignations and lapses, which lost the Society 28,000 (out of 45,000) members in between and the time of the election. This decline was not due to economic depression, as some thought; the biggest part of it took place in the year of the boom, and besides, the Society had always maintained its upward trend through previous depressions and wars. The result of all these things was that I received less than five thousand votes while my opponent scored more than fifteen thousand. It was a victory for Bishop Leadbeater, who had at last attained practically full control during Dr. Besant's illness though he himself, then at the age of eighty seven, did not live to see the result of the election. He was entirely sincere in wanting to guide things by his own psychic experience. But in such an atmosphere psychic experiences were bound to come to many people - and to conflict. One afternoon, as I was about to enter the bathroom to wash my hands (I had been gardening) I was told by an inner voice to go at once to the library. When I arrived there I found the Master standing near the table, and the whole room throbbing - as it appeared to me - with his aura. He thanked me, for himself and his colleagues, for what I had done in connection with the election. I record. The true inwardness of it I do not know. I am quite prepared to believe that a thought-form or entity which can be created by a group of people, having psychic influence but no intelligence of its own, can hover above all and impress each sensitive person according to his own subconscious desire. The new President, Mr. Arundale - he now dropped the use of his title of Bishop outside the church activities, as he had announced his intention to do - or Dr. Arundale, if we are to recognize the honorary degree conferred upon him by the short-lived National University wrote me that his intentions were to pursue a thoroughly liberal policy. I could not congratulate him on his election, considering the way in which it had been conducted, but I wrote wishing him success in the liberal intentions expressed in his letter to me. But I saw no landing-place for the weary unwelcome foot of the white dove of truth in the new interpretation of the Society's principle of tolerance: "Thou shalt not find fault with a brother's views or activities." What a convenience that sort of tolerance would be to lawbreakers in general, if only it could be adopted in the outside world! I learned to detest theosophical politics, with their hiding of everything that does not redound to the credit of those in power, and their perpetual circles of mutual admiration, but I was left with a high regard for the theosophists scattered over the world as a lovable - albeit most innocent and childlike body of people. It is not here, nor is it there, that pure life or truth shall be found. There are no secret passages to truth. No hocus-pocus of incantations, of word or of the subtler word that is thought, can light or fan the central fire. No establishment can establish it; no communications communicate. ===end=== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:35:51 PST From: "Estela LariosLuna" Subject: Being busy Message-ID: <19980129003551.19663.qmail@hotmail.com> My apologies to anyone on this list that I should be responding to. I've been speed reading but too busy to think and respond appropriately. I'm doing too many things and not one very well. I stopped apologizing because it's getting redundant. I will just pop in and out when time permits. Last apology, I hope. Thoa :o) Same as Thoa.being very busy lately. I have in my mind still MANY QUESTIONS, that i'll bother Ramadoss and Alan later. In the maintime, I can read Chuck's Jokes!! Estrella ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:00:10 PST From: "Estela LariosLuna" Subject: Mi poor country.... (The bad kshattryas taking over) Message-ID: <19980129010011.333.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, i know, it's been a while since i don't post here.... In the southeast of my country, in Chiapas,Mexico, There has been a savage masacre. i don't know if you folks read the news, but it is been applied a countraguerrilla war (Low intensity war, like the ones in South and Central America) in the poor southern state. The savage masacre that filled the glass was the killing of 45 women, children and elderly pepole, almost no men, inocent pepole that were praying for peace. The Chiapas issue is very complicated, because, as the old low intensity wars in the 80's, it involves political, economical, religious,and philosophical factors, even ways of taught (The common prejudice of whites and ladinos (Mestizos,common pepole) toward the ancient culture of native pepole. It is like if the white race wanted to take revenge of the pain suffered in ancient times, that noone remembers, by ways of making the last drop of blood drop from the ancients third and fourth races (Remember the violation to the jamaica citizen in US with a toilet bowl pump) like Jamiroquai (A fabulous musical group) said in a video: When are we going to learn?? In the matters of occult and theosophical understanding, at the same time that we try to understand the real root of the matter (The begining of the evolution of the taught -as a friend of mine said- of the poor indians) As probably Dallas or another will try to profundize on it, Let us not be BLIND of the cruelty, and fight Willfuly against it, in the ways we know, like Ramadoss would say it. Thanks for your attention to this strong call of anxious rage.... Estrella ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:11:43 PST From: "Estela LariosLuna" Subject: On Experimentation on Auras and more siddhi stuff Message-ID: <19980129011144.21871.qmail@hotmail.com> In the matter of Auras, i wanted to profundize on the subject. as i am a neofite in Theosophical matters, i only have read in the subject what Clara Cobb said at respect in her little book "The eternal wisdom of life" All of what is mentioned (Very little) concordates with some notes that i have done at respect with a subject that presumly has this faculty. Also i have the suspitious that some siddhis=paranormal habilities present themselves as groups ,packages, this is, that in a person that has by ex. the hability of seeing auras, the hability of clairvoyance=seeing the future, astral travel,etc. Another thing :It can be possible that some habilities are ruled by some side of the brain, and pepole, as they can use one side better than the other, can have, for example,telepathy, telekinesis, ESP, but NOT aura vision, for example. Can someone here can tell me this more clearly?? Thanks Estrella P.S.Chuck,Thoa,I missed your jokes. is this thing that my mail is now in hotmail and takes HOURS of reading this!!! (TOO SLOW) Does someone know of some free e-mail compatible with pop-3?? that is, that can be readible by the Netscape mail system?? A grand salute to all here by the way.... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:35:13 -0600 From: "JRC" Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: <199801290136.SAA26846@umt.umt.edu> >In a message dated 98-01-27 10:00:31 EST, you write: >>(try to prove that you're NOT a despoiler >>of young goats! >Damn, the one thing I've never done! What, despoil young goats, or try to prove you didn't? ... (-:), -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:48:49 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Wheaton? Message-ID: In message , JRC writes >Curious fact - while the TS >membership has declined dramatically - by close to a third of its >membership in less than a decade - I notice that *this list* is now over >150 ... still small in absolute numbers, but nonetheless an *increase* of >just short of *50%* in less than a couple of years. > >Lux et Veritas, -JRC And "TI" is getting close to the 100 members figure. Watch this space! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:54:53 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Wheaton? Message-ID: In message <34CF8976.A60E16B@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > Yet, if this is the case, then to even deny the charges being brought up >would be to, to a certain extent, give them credence. Therefore, it is better >to just ignore the charges than it is to answer them. A very specious argument. If the charges can be defended and/or refuted, then they should be. Confidence in the leadership would rise dramatically. Ask the nice Mr. Clinton. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:51:55 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Wheaton? Message-ID: In message , JRC writes >Shucks Chuck its even easier than that - around ten of the members >on the current list of subscribers are "Concealed". -JRC At least two of them are not TS (Adyar) members SFAIK. Sort that out! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:50:21 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: In message , Drpsionic writes >In a message dated 98-01-27 20:34:03 EST, you write: > >>Perhaps they don't like *old* goats? >> >>Alan (tee-hee) > >Well, that would explain you. :) :) > >Chuck the Giggling Heretic True, sadly, true ... Alan :-( [Capricorn rising] --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 02:05:49 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: TS Electioneering/Politiking Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19980128223730.00670544@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss quotes Ernest Wood: >It is not here, nor is it there, that pure life or truth shall be found. >There are no secret passages to truth. No hocus-pocus of incantations, of >word or of the subtler word that is thought, can light or fan the central >fire. No establishment can establish it; no communications communicate. AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:55:34 -0800 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: hocus-pocus of incantations Message-ID: <199801290302.VAA26310@proteus.imagiware.com> Ramadoss & Alan: >M K Ramadoss quotes Ernest Wood: > >>It is not here, nor is it there, that pure life or truth shall be found. >>There are no secret passages to truth. No hocus-pocus of incantations, of >>word or of the subtler word that is thought, can light or fan the central >>fire. No establishment can establish it; no communications communicate. > >AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. > >Alan It may depend upon which road up the mountainside that you take. There are different approaches, depending upon which religion or spiritual tradition that you align yourself with. One approach may use ritual, rites, ceremony, others may stress direct meditative insight like Zen. Some approaches may use the word, thought, and reflection to awaken one's inner fire, and as a technique for self-development, and they are just as useful to some people as other, mystical, anti-intellectual approaches. Ramadoss is right *from one standpoint*, and those words would ring true to the followers of certain traditions; the same words word come across as nonsense to equally sincere and effective followers of differing traditions. Which tradition is right? For a particular culture some approaches may prove most effective and should be promoted first, but for any of us as individuals it's *what works* that counts. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:08:16 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: hocus-pocus of incantations Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980128220816.00fa8214@mail.eden.com> At 10:29 PM 1/28/1998 -0500, Eldon wrote: >Ramadoss & Alan: > >>M K Ramadoss quotes Ernest Wood: >> >>>It is not here, nor is it there, that pure life or truth shall be found. >>>There are no secret passages to truth. No hocus-pocus of incantations, of >>>word or of the subtler word that is thought, can light or fan the central >>>fire. No establishment can establish it; no communications communicate. >> >>AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. >> >>Alan > >It may depend upon which road up the mountainside that you take. >There are different approaches, depending upon which religion or >spiritual tradition that you align yourself with. One approach >may use ritual, rites, ceremony, others may stress direct >meditative insight like Zen. Some approaches may use the word, >thought, and reflection to awaken one's inner fire, and as a >technique for self-development, and they are just as useful to >some people as other, mystical, anti-intellectual approaches. >Ramadoss is right *from one standpoint*, and those words would I just excerpted from Wood's book. No one can be sure until we know first hand which works and which does not in self discovery or discovering secrets of nature. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:46:08 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Updates and New Additions to Theosophical Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129074608.00788a30@mail.eden.com> The url is very informative and is very well done. Especially the index is very useful to anyont interested in theosophical history. Do you have any plans to put the full texts in downloadable files so that anyone interested can instantaneously get them via Internet? It will very useful and helful for many. I am also posting this to theos-x lists. MKR At 11:48 AM 1/28/1998 -0500, John Patrick Deveney wrote: >The Theosophical History webpage has been updated and a great deal of new >and exciting material added!! > >Check out: http://idt.net/~pdeveney/index.html > >--The current issue of Theosophical History journal, Volume VII/1, January >1998, is almost available, with articles and comments by Jean Overton >Fuller, Dan Merkur, Alan Donant and others. >--Theosophical History Occasional Papers, Volume VI is now available: >Astral Projection or Liberation of the Double and the Work of the Early >Theosophical Society, by John Patrick Deveney >--The full text of the Forewards by James A. Santucci to the Astral >Projection monograph and to earlier Occasional Papers by Govert Schüller >and Jean-Louis Siémons have been uploaded to the webpage, together with the >Editor's Comments to VI/8 and an original contribution by Professor >Santucci on Women in the TS Movement. >-- The email addresses of several notable scholars in the field have been >added to the list of Collaborators and Colleagues of the journal, including >Daniel Caracostea and Wouter Hanegraaff. This a convenient way to exchange >information and thoughts with others in the area. If you have a scholarly >interest in the field, send us your email address and interests for posting. >--The Table of Contents of Volume VI (1996-1997) of the journal, prepared >by Daniel Caracostea of Paris, has been added to the webpage--a very >helpful tool for research. >--The formal announcement and call for papers for the Edmonton Theosophical >Society's conference in Edmonton in July 1998 has been added. > >Check out the page now, and don't hesitate to send in your comments, Notes >& Queries, and contributions to pdeveney@kcdlaw.com > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:51:23 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: On Experimentation on Auras and more siddhi stuff Message-ID: >In the matter of Auras, i wanted to profundize on the subject. as i am a >neofite in Theosophical matters, i only have read in the subject what >Clara Cobb said at respect in her little book "The eternal wisdom of >life" >All of what is mentioned (Very little) concordates with some notes that >i have done at respect with a subject that presumly has this faculty. >Also i have the suspitious that some siddhis=paranormal habilities >present themselves as groups ,packages, this is, that in a person that >has by ex. the hability of seeing auras, the hability of >clairvoyance=seeing the future, astral travel,etc. You are right, there are persons who have more than one paranormal 'habit'. >Another thing :It can be possible that some habilities are ruled by some >side of the brain, and pepole, as they can use one side better than the >other, can have, for example,telepathy, telekinesis, ESP, but NOT aura >vision, for example. >Can someone here can tell me this more clearly?? >Thanks >Estrella What is ESP? Everybody can develop paranormal 'habits'. I never worried about if it has something to do with the brain and its two sides. Why to? Can you explain why you dream or why you don't and how a dream is built up? Everybody has dreams and most of the people don't even think about it. For example I just met a young men from Russia. We hardly can communicate because of his bad English but he is clearly clearvoyant and greatly gifted and doesn't make out a business of it - he but enjoys it with deep respect. I consider him as a sample of how paranormal 'habits' should naturally be looked at. That Esotheric "histeria-fever" which grasses around like a sickness these days really gets on my nerves - I am all too silly to follow what kind of problems they are all having. They shoudn't make a business out of paranormal 'habits' or think about it at all and what's the worse - they should not try to IMAGINGE such 'habits'. IT IS AS IMPOSSIBLE TO IMAGINE A VISION A S TO IMAGINE A DREAM you wish to have next night! Nicole (definetly not able to receive a free email due to computer difficulties which can't be solved out) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:25:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theosophy History URL Response Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129122509.00f35590@mail.eden.com> >Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:37:17 -0800 >From: JSANTUCCI@FULLERTON.EDU (JAMES SANTUCCI) >Subject: Re: Theos-World Updates and New Additions to Theosophical History Webpage Thank you for including TH on the theos-x lists. We are at present adding a number of texts on the site, especially material from past issues. Sincerely, J. Santucci >The url is very informative and is very well done. Especially the index is >very useful to anyont interested in theosophical history. > >Do you have any plans to put the full texts in downloadable files so that >anyone interested can instantaneously get them via Internet? It will very >useful and helful for many. > >I am also posting this to theos-x lists. > >MKR > >At 11:48 AM 1/28/1998 -0500, John Patrick Deveney wrote: >>The Theosophical History webpage has been updated and a great deal of new >>and exciting material added!! >> >>Check out: http://idt.net/~pdeveney/index.html >> >>--The current issue of Theosophical History journal, Volume VII/1, January >>1998, is almost available, with articles and comments by Jean Overton >>Fuller, Dan Merkur, Alan Donant and others. >>--Theosophical History Occasional Papers, Volume VI is now available: >>Astral Projection or Liberation of the Double and the Work of the Early >>Theosophical Society, by John Patrick Deveney >>--The full text of the Forewards by James A. Santucci to the Astral >>Projection monograph and to earlier Occasional Papers by Govert Schüller >>and Jean-Louis Siémons have been uploaded to the webpage, together with the >>Editor's Comments to VI/8 and an original contribution by Professor >>Santucci on Women in the TS Movement. >>-- The email addresses of several notable scholars in the field have been >>added to the list of Collaborators and Colleagues of the journal, including >>Daniel Caracostea and Wouter Hanegraaff. This a convenient way to exchange >>information and thoughts with others in the area. If you have a scholarly >>interest in the field, send us your email address and interests for posting. >>--The Table of Contents of Volume VI (1996-1997) of the journal, prepared >>by Daniel Caracostea of Paris, has been added to the webpage--a very >>helpful tool for research. >>--The formal announcement and call for papers for the Edmonton Theosophical >>Society's conference in Edmonton in July 1998 has been added. >> >>Check out the page now, and don't hesitate to send in your comments, Notes >>& Queries, and contributions to pdeveney@kcdlaw.com >> >> >> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:34:11 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World (The bad kshattryas taking over) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129123411.00f315c4@mail.eden.com> At 08:27 PM 1/28/1998 -0800, you wrote: >>>>clip<<<<<<<<< >> Post-No.: conflight-l/1998-01-27/1976 (digest-marker) >> From: El Morya Melchizedek >> Subject: Letter to the Starry Family >> clip <<<<<<<< >> >> Post-No.: conflight-l/1998-01-23/1943 (digest-marker) >> From: jacques groenen >> Subject: Message from Kuthumi >> >> Message from Ascended Master Kuthumi >> to the Lightworkers >> of the Shield of the Command >> (The Netherlands) >>>>clip<<<<<<<<<< Some of us may be disappointed the the adepts have been avoiding theos-xxxx maillists (just like the TS leadership). Surprised to see them active in another maillist. There must be some reason I suppose!!!! I will be sending them an invitation to theos-xxxx maillists and hope they will grace the lists by their advise and counsel. But no one knows what they are going to do and whether anyone is going to listen. Keep tuned in!!!! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:44:21 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: HPB, Sai Baba etc. Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980129124421.00f315c4@mail.eden.com> I don't think we know about all the various methodologies are used to produce an item out of thin air - materialization is perhaps only one of the techniques. There may be other means of transporting an article which is already there. There was an instance of a light in HPB's bed room being turned up mysteriously. Finally it was found that a brown hand was seen doing it. It all happened at a time when everyone in the residence was whites and there were no non whites. It is described in one of memoirs about HPB. So I would keep the above in mind before coming to any conclusion about Sai Baba creating an object. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:41:03 -0800 From: "Terry Briscoe" Subject: Re: Is the TS HQ site is boring? Message-ID: <01bd2d4a$089d5380$09c5fed0@hp-customer> MKR said: >The url is very informative and is very well done. Especially the index is >very useful to anyont interested in theosophical history. >Do you have any plans to put the full texts in downloadable files so that >anyone interested can instantaneously get them via Internet? It will very >useful and helful for many. JPDeveney wrote: >At 11:48 AM 1/28/1998 -0500, John Patrick Deveney wrote: >The Theosophical History webpage has been updated and a great deal of new >and exciting material added!! Well. I went to the TS home page to check out the 'excitment' only to be quite disappointed at the lack of variety of downloadable articles, and the crass commercialism applied to their extrication.. their approach appears to be rather non-inclusive. In my (kama-manasic astrally filtered) opinion there is a growing bonanza of theosophical and occult (sometimes A.A.B. oriented) treatises of superior quality, and free of charge at the Upper Triad site, http://www.uppertriad.org . MKR, I've been enjoying your indefatigable efforts at winding your seamless thread of continuity throughout these posts.. do continue. Namascara, -Terry ________________________________________ Don't forget, you are unique -like everybody else! Biomat organic school fundraisers http://www2.micro-net.com/~tbriscoe From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:13:31 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Wheaton? Message-ID: To Alan: "At least two of them are not TS (Adyar) members SFAIK. Sort that out!" "L'amour c'est l'enfant de la liberté et la liberté n'a pas droits" and now stop playing Jente!! (non, rien de rien, no je ne rgrette rien ... je repare à cero!) Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:59:35 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Is the TS HQ site is boring? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980130065935.01057e64@mail.eden.com> At 11:43 PM 1/29/1998 -0500, you wrote: >MKR said: >>The url is very informative and is very well done. Especially the index is >>very useful to anyont interested in theosophical history. >>Do you have any plans to put the full texts in downloadable files so that >>anyone interested can instantaneously get them via Internet? It will very >>useful and helful for many. > >JPDeveney wrote: >>At 11:48 AM 1/28/1998 -0500, John Patrick Deveney wrote: >>The Theosophical History webpage has been updated and a great deal of new >>and exciting material added!! > > Well. I went to the TS home page to check out the 'excitment' only to be >quite disappointed at the lack of variety of downloadable articles, and the >crass >commercialism applied to their extrication.. their approach appears to be >rather non-inclusive. >In my (kama-manasic astrally filtered) opinion there is a growing bonanza of >theosophical and occult (sometimes A.A.B. oriented) treatises of superior >quality, and free of charge at the Upper Triad site, >http://www.uppertriad.org . >MKR, I've been enjoying your indefatigable efforts at winding your seamless >thread of continuity throughout these posts.. do continue. >Namascara, -Terry >________________________________________ >Don't forget, you are unique -like everybody else! >Biomat organic school fundraisers >http://www2.micro-net.com/~tbriscoe Thanks for your feedback. At least you took the time to visit the site. Let us give the guy a break. They have made a beginning. Technically I think they have done a good job. As for the contents, they have made a start. It is only a question of time that additional material is made available. Again, the number of people who are interested in Theosophy is relatively small and those on the net is even smaller. In this situation, net is the only way to go and is very cost effective. I am very hopeful that we will see more downloadable info at the site in future. Let us keep tuned in. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:49:36 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: A good topic for Annual Meeting? Message-ID: True, sadly, true ... Alan :-( [Capricorn rising] Can nice Mr. Clinten use his red phone or is he too important to speak to normal simple human beeings? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:00:16 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: HPB, Sai Baba etc. Message-ID: "There was an instance of a light in HPB's bed room being turned up mysteriously. Finally it was found that a brown hand was seen doing it. It all happened at a time when everyone in the residence was whites and there were no non whites. It is described in one of memoirs about HPB. So I would keep the above in mind before coming to any conclusion about Sai Baba creating an object. mkr" I shall keep this in mind. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:23:04 PST From: "Estela LariosLuna" Subject: Re:On experimentation on auras and more siddhi stuff Message-ID: <19980130202317.24193.qmail@hotmail.com> Nicole write: >What is ESP? I believe i did'nt explain it well. i taught it was the english name of P.E.S, paranormal habilities (something like that, i don't remember the definition) >Everybody can develop paranormal 'habits'. I never worried about if it >has something to do with the brain and its two sides. Why to? Why? because,in science, you know they have notice that left handed pepole use more the right side of the brain, on the contrary of most pepole that uses the left side of the brain (Commonly asociated with language) and they're right handed. the pepole that uses the left side of the brain are more able then to reason things visually-space oriented....etc. you see, there are differences between pepole that uses one side (women uses mostly the left side, the verbal-racional side,ex.) than the other. in the paranormal habilities, a yogui CAN uses both sides of the brain (That's the common thinking of the pepole that regrets that "if i COULD use more than my 10% of my brain...etc.) For that explains his habilities, but the common psichic, like some friend of yours,for example, only uses ONE side, that explains why some psichics uses only one hand to do things....a very remarkable psichic would use the TWO hands for doing things. > Can you explain >why you dream or why you don't and how a dream is built up? Everybody has >dreams and most of the people don't even think about it. I normaly have very wierd dreams. >For example I just met a young men from Russia. We hardly can >communicate >because of his bad English but he is clearly clearvoyant and greatly >gifted and >doesn't make out a business of it - he but enjoys it with deep >respect. I >consider >him as a sample of how paranormal 'habits' should naturally be looked at. I agree with you. like a friend of mine says, those are "normal things" Yes, what's all the fuzz for? >That Esotheric "histeria-fever" which grasses around like a sickness these days >really gets on my nerves - I am all too silly to follow what kind of problems they >are all having. >They shoudn't make a business out of paranormal 'habits' or think about it at >all and what's the worse - they should not try to IMAGINGE such 'habits'. Do you know how many "Koot Hoomi's" are in US alone?? (and how many are charging for them??) >IT IS AS IMPOSSIBLE TO IMAGINE A VISION A S TO IMAGINE A DREAM >you wish to have next night! Nicole I agree with you. Now in Mexico, because of the crisis, pepole are getting hooked with all of the paranormal-occult-new agey stuff, and there are a lot of books on the subject. and they are the common paperback-soft cover edition, nothing fancy like in us libraries. I can imagine how big the fuzz IS in us and developed countries!! (And a lot of phony prophets and channeled-spaced guys -All of them charging a lot, of cour$$$e!!) Paranormal powers (siddhis) are only the cherries on the cake!! >(definetly not able to receive a free email due to computer >difficulties which >can't be solved out) Same as you. Hotmail charges me if i dare to get the pop3 reading feature.And webmail is SOOOO slow.... -btw, i tried your page, Eldon, seems that noone of the services can do it.maybe i'll try Rocketmail,maybe does have that feature.... Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:40:39 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Precipitation/Materialization Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980131074039.00711f38@mail.eden.com> The appearance of a hand in some of the precipitation/materialization appears to be a fact. If someone had video taped it, skeptics can claim it is a trick and that someone hiding was doing it. Here is a letter from HPB to Sinnett where she describes how DK's hand appeared during the precipitation of the letter. mkr =================== LETTER No. 137 Clan Drummond: Algiers. Sunday 8th. My dear Mr. Sinnett, You see I am as good as my word. Last night as we were hopelessly tossed about and pitched in our Clan wash-tub Djual K. put in an appearance and asked in his Master's name if I would send you a chit. I said I would. He then asked me to prepare some paper—which I had not. He then said any would do. I then proceeded to ask some from a passenger, not having Mrs. Holloway to furnish me with [it]. Lo! I wish those passengers who quarrel with us every day about the possibility of phenomena could see what was taking place in my cabin on the foot of my berth! How D.K.'s hand, as real as life, was impressing the letter at his Master's dictation which came out in relief between the wall and my legs. He told me to read the letter but I am no wiser for it. I understand very well that it was all probation and all for the best; but it is devilish hard for me to understand why it should all be performed over my long suffering back. She is in correspondence with Myers and the Gebhards and many others. You will see what splatters I will receive as an effect of the causes produced by that probation business. I wish I had never seen the woman. Such treachery, such a deceit I would never have dreamt of. I was also a chela and guilty of more than one flapdoodle; but I would have thought as soon of murdering physically a man as to murder morally my friends as she has. Had not Master brought about the explanation I would have gone away leaving a nice memory of myself in Mrs. Sinnett's and your hearts. We have on board Mrs. (Major) Burton of Simla. She left it the day before I came and has been always anxious since, to meet me. She wants to join us and is a charming little woman. We have several Anglo Indians and all kindly disposed. The steamer is a rolling wash-tub and the steward an infamy. We are all starving, and live upon our own tea and biscuits. Do write a word to Port Said, posse restante. We shall remain in Egypt perhaps a fortnight. It all depends on Olcott's letters and news from Adyar. Can't write for the rolling. Love to all. Yours ever truly H. P. BLAVATSKY. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:44:58 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Is the TS HQ site is boring? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980131074458.00ce44b0@mail.eden.com> At 11:43 PM 1/29/1998 -0500, Terry wrote: >In my (kama-manasic astrally filtered) opinion there is a growing bonanza of >theosophical and occult (sometimes A.A.B. oriented) treatises of superior >quality, and free of charge at the Upper Triad site, >http://www.uppertriad.org . I visited the UT site. It is very well done and very informative and has a lot of links. Adding references to the material on the site would enhance the site. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:40:40 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: To Brenda on World Government Message-ID: <0c7bd0225141f18UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> As much as I can appreciate the SD's description of the earth being made bare and the general slaughter, it fits into my scheme of thinking that some of the earth was still populated with creatures. "They slew the forms which were two and four-faced. They fought the goat-men, and the dog-headed men, and the men with fishes' bodies." I'm looking at some of the dinosaurs which lived millions of years ago and most are Jurassic through Cretaceous. As is shown in the SD p. 815, prior to Triassic dinos there were reptiles (water men?) and the Dimetrodon is the only one pictured, reportedly living 265 million years ago. Dilophosaurus lived during early Jurassic. Regardless of these tidbits of info, if the general cataclysm took place to rid the earth of "nature's unaided forms," then wouldn't there have had to have been a similar cataclysm, perhaps taking place before the beginning of the fifth root race, which would have destroyed the "unaided human approximations of adepts?" The cataclysm at the end of the fourth would have also had a purpose similar to the one described in Stanzas I-IV for man, only this time the forms would have been extinguished by flames from adept beings who then would come themselves to produce their needed equipment (in the way of bodies). Anyway, I thought you might enjoy thinking through this side of the question with me. Maybe you'll rest easier knowing we are under GOOD direction. Brenda Keith: As usual, I don't think I can address you comments point but point, but I think it is interesting that many traditions suggest that as long as there are a certain number of spiritual people in the population, the race or planet will be spared. I am thinking particullarly of the Jewish idea that the diaspora was necessary to insure that the shekinah or divine presense would mitigate the angy Jehovah, Yod He Vau He again. The Hindus and Buddhists have similar stories of the race being spared due to the actions of the elect and of course the Masters are seen as working behind the scenes with worthwhile individuals. I guess if I had children I would really be worried, but they will start there own search From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:11:28 -0600 From: "KeithHouston" Subject: Functioning on All Levels Message-ID: <0d1b54717151f18UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> Keith: So many of the threads on this or many other spiritual discussion lists seem to focus ultimately on how does one live a spiritual life, not just think about. I have tried to clarify to Mark Kusek and others that I believe and have read in many sources including the SECRET DOCTRINE that the multi-level nature of existence as in the seven planes in the micro, meso and macro cosoms force us to be pulled by karma interior and exterior to the point of despair. The repair or turning back (religio) to the souce that can renew, constraing and redirect all our bodies or vessels is the purpose of our existence and evil is a big part of it whether I like it or not. I say why do we need all this breathing and temptation and imperfection, and the answer is "what are you going to do about it?" I can keep trying old paths and expecting different results or surrender to the giant process to which I have no control. I still don't like it, but I am forced to try as best I can to function as a fully human on all levels. This is the gift of theosophy in some way in that it allows me to see that everything, all people. all art, all social injustices are grounded in spirituality, not in materiality. I think this is the message that can be taken to the academics, phsysicans, psychologists and healers and IS being taken there. Does theosophy as we know it, allow us to repair the disintergration of the modern, artificial, over-systmetized, over-controlled world? I don't know. I long for the days when people could watch sunsets, meditate, discuss and live a very difficult agrigultural existence that was infused with the spirituality of everyday life. I cannot escape fast food and cable TV and the IRS, except in moments of retreat within. Am I complaining too much? Namaste Keith What are we going to do about? Keep on, keeping on, I guess. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:10:13 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Impact/Power of Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980131101013.006967a4@mail.eden.com> I have posted several msgs pointing to the communication potential of Internet. When recent Clinton problems arose, did the public read it in the US Government Official Publication -- the Federal Register? No. It was first on Internet. The following story I picked up from CNN site is very informative and might interest many who are interested in Internet. Specifically for Thesophists and Theosophical organizations, IMHO, the most important item of note is the levelling nature of Internet and how it takes very little monetary resources to use Internet. Theosophy has used paper and print media for over a century to present its message and communicate with people interested in Theosophy, it will be very difficult for aging leadership (when did we see young leaders last?) who grew up in the print media which had and has 100% control and who are not exposed to computer culture, to get a full understanding of the power and scope and future potential of Internet as the universal tool of communication. Internet technology is moving very fast and it is opening up channels of direct communication without intermediaries filtering or censoring information. By relying on print media one misses the opportunity of using a very cost effective Internet as well as the speed with which communication takes place. Traditionally pencil and paper methods of communication coupled with the Postal Service provided the slack which is useful and convenient to slow down the process and also seen from the chains and manvantaras point of view, such slow speed does not matter. However from a practical standpoint of today's world, speed and efficiency can go hand in hand by using Internet. We will have to see if theosophy and Theosophical organizations can tap into the potential of Internet to spread the msg that HPB gave us at a great personal sacrifice for helping the Humanity. Future can only tell if theosophy makes use of Internet or going to miss the grand opportunity. Just my thoughts. Welcome any feedback. MKR PS: A great beginning has been made by the establishment of these maillists and the newsgroup by individuals who had the foresight to see the potential and had the best interests of Theosophy in their hearts. My salute to John and Eldon and Chuck. Of course there are many who have set up urls with theosophical info and we should thank each of them for their contribution to spread theosophy. In the Internet age, may be the future of theosophy lies with enterprising and creative individuals rather than organizations with a large bureaucracy and a lot of money, who knows. ============================ Pandora's Web? Clinton-Lewinsky allegations fuel debate about journalism and the Internet BY GREGG RUSSELL/CNN INTERACTIVE NEWSWEEK KILLS STORY ON WHITE HOUSE INTERN: 23-YEAR OLD, SEX RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT **World Exclusive** **Must Credit the DRUDGE REPORT** At the last minute, at 6 p.m. on Saturday evening, NEWSWEEK magazine killed a story that was destined to shake official Washington to its foundation: A White House intern carried on a sexual affair with the President of the United States! These words, posted early Sunday morning, Jan. 18, on the personal Web site of a man named Matt Drudge, began the lurid multimedia frenzy engulfing the United States today. [I] Welcome to journalism in the Internet Age: an age when a 30- year-old former CBS gift-shop clerk like Drudge, armed with a computer and a modem, can wield nearly as much power as a network executive producer or the editor of The New York Times. The Drudge Report, a mix of gossip, politics, rumor and news, has been attracting attention in cyberspace for a couple of years now. Some 60,000 subscribers receive Drudge's daily bulletins and "flash" reports; tens of thousands more read them on his Web site. Using a network of tipsters and "borrowed" passwords to the internal computer systems of media powerhouses, Drudge has managed to scoop the media establishment on a number of stories, including the selection of Jack Kemp as Bob Dole's vice presidential running mate and Connie Chung's dismissal by CBS. But it was Drudge's White House sex scandal scoop that caused the mainstream media to take notice. And even as these "respectable" news outlets pursue the scandal with almost tabloid intensity, many professional journalists are expressing concern about Drudge's role in breaking the Lewinsky story and the effect the Internet is having on their profession. "The technology of nonstop news and the Internet means that allegations that would have been carefully checked out a generation ago no longer are," said James Fallows, editor of U.S. News and World Report. "We now have a 24-hour-a-day news cycle. News gets used up very quickly and there's a constant hunger for new tidbits." Even some online journalists fear their new medium is upping the ante. "Every part of the media now feels the pressure of the Internet, " said Jodie Allen, Washington editor of Slate online magazine. "If Matt Drudge is going to get it up there, maybe we better put (it) out there first." Lower standards? The problem, as some see it, is that The Drudge Report and other gadfly Internet sites are not subject to the editorial and legal rigors to which professional journalism is traditionally subject. Anyone with a Web site can publish a report, however baseless or unconfirmed, and call it news. Drudge himself has said he "takes some chances" and admits his stories are only about "80 percent accurate." As pundit Michael Kinsley stated flatly in TIME magazine: "The Internet beat TV and print to this story, and ultimately forced it on them, for one simple reason: lower standards." Newsweek's editors agree. Their higher standards, they claim, are precisely what prevented them from publishing the story in the first place. They wanted more information, more confirmation, and so they lost the scoop. Drudge's report spurred other journalists to pursue the story, and two days later it was on the front page of The Washington Post. "It hurt like hell," said Richard M. Smith, editor-in-chief of Newsweek. "But given the magnitude of the allegations and the information we had at the time, I'm convinced we acted responsibly." That sort of responsibility is exactly what some journalists fear will be subverted by competition from the Internet. "We are so caught up in trying to beat one another with some little scooplet," said the Chicago Tribune's James Warren, "that we're not taking the care and attention that we usually do." Power to the people? So is the Web to blame for declining standards in mainstream journalism? Is this new medium a high-tech Pandora's box, unleashing the ills of gossip and rumor among an utterly scrupulous news media? Certainly gossip and rumor didn't begin with the Internet. Walter Winchell, to whom Drudge has with some accuracy been compared, used less-than-pristine standards of reporting to become the most powerful journalist--and arguably one of the most powerful people--in mid-century America. Drudge likes the idea of turning this kind of power over to the masses. "You don't get a license to report in America," he said. "We have a First Amendment freedom. In the future, there will be 300 million reporters with Web sites and e-mail accounts. I'm looking forward to it. I think the monopolization of news really screwed up a lot of things." Kinsley, who has worked for both print and cyber news mediums, suggests the Internet offers a new kind of communication, which, while falling short of journalism, still has value. "The case for Drudge," he writes in TIME, "is that there ought to be a middle ground between the highest standards and none at all. And the Internet, which can be sort of halfway between a private conversation and formal publication, is a good place for that middle ground. The middle ground, of course, should be acknowledged as such ... People should understand that the information they get this way is middling quality--better than what their neighbor heard at the dry cleaner's but not as good as The New York Times." Where there's smoke, there's lawyers As it happens, the concerns of professional journalists may be resolved the traditional American way: in the courtroom. Drudge currently faces a $30 million defamation lawsuit for posting a report he later acknowledged was untrue. His subsequent retraction and apology failed to keep the legal wolves at bay. But there's a chance even lawyers can't stop Drudge and his new media ilk. Electronic Frontier Foundation counsel Mike Godwin argues that the Internet is exempt from slander and libel suits because it affords equal access to everyone. "People can say bad things on the 'Net and circulate them to a million of their closest friends," he says. "So what? The 'Net's a level playing field." Drudge agrees. "All my readers come to me," he said. "I'm not forcing anyone to read me." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:13:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980131101309.00712114@mail.eden.com> In my previous post on the Internet, I forgot to mention Theosophy International - the "organization" with no bureaucracy and no money and the sole medium it uses is Internet. My salute to Alan who launched it and again shows the individual interest and effort. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:31:33 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: HPB, Sai Baba etc. Message-ID: <34D351E5.2A8E6807@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > There was an instance of a light in HPB's bed room being turned up > mysteriously. Finally it was found that a brown hand was seen doing it. It > all happened at a time when everyone in the residence was whites and there > were no non whites. It is described in one of memoirs about HPB. But, did she use this as proof of her advanced spiritual development, or as a parlour trick to entertain the guests? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:12:26 -0500 From: jim meier Subject: Moon Chart 1998 Message-ID: <199801311513_MC2-3166-CD74@compuserve.com> Moon Chart 1998 "In all meditation it is of value for the student to remember that, from the standpoint of permanent benefit, it is easier to meditate effectively during the period from the new moon to the full moon, than from the full moon to the new moon. The first half of the lunar cycle is one of intensification, absorption and accretion; the second half is one of assimilation and distribution. More real progress over a long period can be made by observing this cyclic law. Wisely utilizing newly acquired energies keeps inflowing and outflowing channels open and prevents emotional, mental and psychical congestions which may otherwise be experienced, with their accompanying physical consequences. Table of new and full moons for the twelve months of 1998 (United States Standard Time) 1998 day moon Eastern Greenwich Mean Time day ___________________________________________________________________________ Jan 12 Full Cap 12:25 pm 5:25 pm 12 Jan 28 New Aqu 1:02 am 6:02 am 28 Feb 11 Full Aqu 5:24 am 10:24 am 11 Feb 26# New Pisc 12:27 pm 5:27 pm 26 Mar 12 Full Pisc 11:35 pm 4:35 am 13 Mar 27 New Ari 10:15 pm 3:15 am 28 Apr 11 Full Ari 5:24 pm 10:24 pm 11 Apr 26 New Tau 6:42 am 11:42 am 26 May 11 Full Tau 9:30 am 2:30 pm 11 May 25 New Gem 2:33 pm 7:33 pm 25 Jun 9 Full Gem 11:19 pm 4:19 am 10 Jun 23 New Can 10:51 pm 3:51 am 24 Jul 9 Full Can 11:02 am 4:02 pm 9 Jul 23 New Leo 8:45 am 1:45 pm 23 Aug 7 Full Leo 9:11 pm 2:11 am 8 Aug 21# New Leo 9:04 pm 2:04 am 22 Sept 6 Full Vir 6:22 am 11:22 am 6 Sept 20 New Vir 12:03 pm 5:03 pm 20 Oct 5 Full Lib 3:13 pm 8:13 pm 5 Oct 20 New Lib 5:10 am 10:10 am 20 Nov 4 Full Sco 12:19 am 5:19 am 4 Nov 18 New Sco 11:28 pm 4:28 am 19 Dec 3 Full Sag 10:20 am 3:20 pm 3 Dec 18 New Sag 5:43 pm 10:43 pm 18 NOTE: Where and when Daylight Savings Time is in use, add one hour to the above times. (#) denotes eclipses of the sun at the new moon and of the moon at the full moon. The full moons of the three Spiritual Festivals occur on the following days: EASTER on April 11th; WESAK on May 10th and WORLD INVOCATION DAY (or Christ's Festival) on June 9th." souce: Lucis Publications