From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:13:30 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Advanced Beings Message-ID: <199710010221.WAA27713@NetGSI.com> >1. What *is* "advanced"? >2. By what outward signs would you recognize "advancement"? >3. Do you need to *be* "advanced" to recongize "advancement"? > >Really curious, >-JRC John, I know that you know, but I'll play the game anyway: 1. Loves others more than self. 2. Spontaneous Compassion & general contentment with life. 3. Yes. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 02:44:25 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: David Icke Message-ID: Keith Price: There is going to be a big new age conference in Phonenix. I got this blurb on David Icke. He supposedly had a spiritual experience (initiation?) where it was revealed that there are secret societies that control the world and keep us under a kind of hypnosis of consumerism, dissatisfaction, addiction and so on. I kind of think this is going on, but it isn't a conscious conspiracy, but a kind of collusion of delusion - attachement to the material maya of this globe. Has anyone else heard of this guy?? David Icke has been rightly dubbed the most controversial and challenging man in Britain today, and is fast winning an international reputation for saying what others fear to say. Icke was a professional soccer player, journalist, BBC television presenter and national spokesman for the UK Green Party before he experienced a very public spiritual awakening in 1990. His talks and books expose the global conspiracy and reveal the spiritual transformation that will bring true freedom to planet earth. Author of ten books, including "And The Truth Shall Set You Free" and "I Am Me I Am Free". At the Prophets Conference David Icke will talk about The Turning of the Tide where he "exposes the real story behind global events which shape the future of human existence and the world we leave our children. Fearlessly he lifts the veil on an astonishing web of interconnected manipulation to reveal that the same few people, secret societies and organizations control the daily direction of our lives. They engineer the wars, the violent revolutions, terrorist outrages and political assassinations. They control the world market in hard drugs and the media indoctrination machine." Icke reveals the esoteric background to the global conspiracy and offers an inspiring spiritual solution in which every man, woman and child breaks free from the daily programming and takes back their infinite power to think for themselves and decide their own destiny. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:24:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Advanced Message-ID: <970930232147_614165336@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-09-30 21:34:14 EDT, you write: > 2. By what outward signs would you recognize "advancement"? Cool helmets, shades, lots of black and leather. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:35:34 -0400 From: libidia Subject: Re: advanced Message-ID: <3431C506.39F9@globalserve.net> Hi John: You wrote: > On a serious note, I'm curious about opinions on the list .... > > 1. What *is* "advanced"? > 2. By what outward signs would you recognize "advancement"? > 3. Do you need to *be* "advanced" to recongize "advancement"? > > Really curious, > -JRC I'm going to stretch to answer this, after my immediate response which was that I could not comment as your posting in totality represented a contradiction in terms. 1. "Advanced" does not exist. "is" probably "is" an infinite process, most of which "was" but, sometimes (oh joy) was and is and will be, at the same time. 2. Oh come on John, you can't trick us that way! The signs of the process are inward. (Am I reading you right?) 3. I just have to borrow from Pete here: Wherever you go, there you are (were, will be). It would please me if you wrote some statements (as opposed to questions)so I can "see" you more clearly. Annette From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:37:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: David Icke Message-ID: <970930233401_945108573@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-09-30 22:54:48 EDT, you write: >Keith Price: There is going to be a big new age conference in Phonenix. I >got this blurb on David Icke. He supposedly had a spiritual experience >(initiation?) where it was revealed that there are secret societies that >control the world and keep us under a kind of hypnosis of consumerism, >dissatisfaction, addiction and so on. I kind of think this is going on, but >it isn't a conscious conspiracy, but a kind of collusion of delusion - >attachement to the material maya of this globe. Has anyone else heard of >this guy?? > No, but he sounds real icky to me. >David Icke has been rightly dubbed the most controversial and challenging >man in Britain today, and is fast winning an international reputation for >saying what others fear to say. Big deal. I've been doing that for years now. > >Icke was a professional soccer player, journalist, BBC television presenter >and national spokesman for the UK Green Party before he experienced a very >public spiritual awakening in 1990. > Before or after he set the bobbie on fire during the game riot? Does he start every sentence with "Duh...?" Does he have an impenetrable north country accent? >His talks and books expose the global conspiracy and reveal the spiritual >transformation that will bring true freedom to planet earth. Author of ten >books, including "And The Truth Shall Set You Free" and "I Am Me I Am Free". > And can he sing "I've Got To Be Me?" >At the Prophets Conference David Icke will talk about The Turning of the >Tide where he "exposes the real story behind global events which shape the >future of human existence and the world we leave our children. Fearlessly >he lifts the veil on an astonishing web of interconnected manipulation to >reveal that the same few people, secret societies and organizations control >the daily direction of our lives. They engineer the wars, the violent >revolutions, terrorist outrages and political assassinations. They control >the world market in hard drugs and the media indoctrination machine." Whoopeee! This sounds like fun. > >Icke reveals the esoteric background to the global conspiracy and offers an >inspiring spiritual solution in which every man, woman and child breaks free >from the daily programming and takes back their infinite power to think for >themselves and decide their own destiny. > What is this conspiracy? Where do I sign up? Can they use a psionics expert? How much does it pay? Hope it's not the dipshit Co-Masons again. They couldn't conspire their way out of a paper bag. I WANT TO BE A BILDERBURGER!!!!!! ( I build a great burger as it is) Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 00:02:05 -0400 From: libidia Subject: Re: see-r Message-ID: <3431CB3D.2899@globalserve.net> Jaqi wrote and then: > Really unadvanced, > --- Hi there Jaqi. I laughed so much and I sure needed that. Thanks a lot. Bart wrote: > Extreme puzzlement. Same here Bart. I'm still trying to figure out what all that "selling ideas between the lines" stuff meant a few weeks ago. But I digress. Are you trying to tell me, with above phrase, that you do not feel or see even a little of the force of voice tone, facial expression, posture at the keyboard, clothing style, energy expulsion, lightness/depth of emotion..... in a posting? This is not a CRITICISM. I believe you do,as we all can do. How else can we tell the tricksters from the guides? When to commit and when to make light? When to expend and when to conserve (the energy that is). You should type with the keyboard on your lap, you know. Conserving..... With love annette From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:27:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: see-r Message-ID: <971001012713_2098876640@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-01 00:03:23 EDT, you write: >How else can we tell the tricksters from the guides? When to commit and >when to make light? When to expend and when to conserve (the energy >that is). You should type with the keyboard on your lap, you know. >Conserving..... Assume that anyone who claims to be a guide is a trickster until proven otherwise and even then be suspicious. And conserve nothing. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:45:00 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1261 Message-ID: To K. Paul Johnson: "It's *spiritual* elitism that is the problem, not *intellectual* elitism. " Could it be that the problem is the elitism? *spiritual* elitism - that expression makes me feel hurt. And if I think about *intelecutal* elitism - well many "good" things came out of it and also many "bad" ones - can you count them? Can others? So out of what did that elitism come from? Maybe you can help me to understand that - until today my simple head does not understand it. Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 03:48:32 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Links page updated Message-ID: <199710011047.DAA13736@scv2.apple.com> I get a lot of mail on my esoteric links page, and I thought I would mention to these mailing lists that it has just undergone a major upgrade. Many of the missing categories have been added, existing categories have been expanded, and definitions have been added to each of the index categories. I believe it is now a much more useful research tool and I hope you have occasion to make use of it. The URL is in my address, below. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 09:29:34 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: David Icke Message-ID: <3432503E.2DD6@sprynet.com> KEITH PRICE wrote: > At the Prophets Conference David Icke will talk about The Turning of the > Tide where he "exposes the real story behind global events which shape the > future of human existence and the world we leave our children. Fearlessly > he lifts the veil on an astonishing web of interconnected manipulation to > reveal that the same few people, secret societies and organizations control > the daily direction of our lives. They engineer the wars, the violent > revolutions, terrorist outrages and political assassinations. They control > the world market in hard drugs and the media indoctrination machine." It is a good rule of thumb to not blame a conspiracy for that which can be explained by individuals acting in their own self-interest. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 9:31:54 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Advanced Message-ID: <199710011331.JAA16214@leo.vsla.edu> Great question, JRC. No one seems to have the same answer, which is telling in itself. I find the word "advanced" to be so reductionistic as to be almost useless. Using astrology as my main model for individual differences, I find it very hard to say one person is advanced further than another on any kind of scale that would reduce all progress to one linear score. We are all advanced or retarded in a dozen different ways, and we can learn from those whose levels vary from our own. E.g. at Windows I'm retarded, at canoeing I'm moderately advanced, etc. The same applies to spiritual gifts. So what looks advanced to us is a reflection of our own particular configuration, as much as an objective measure of the other person. All that said, I've observed that those who tend to be concerned with "advancement" in Theosophical terms tend to be judgmental, closedminded, and elitist. None of which rings my chimes. Those who do strike me as having crossed some kind of threshold are relaxed, empathetic, always open to new ideas, and skilled at communicating with each person at his/her own level of knowledge and interests. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 09:32:40 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: see-r Message-ID: <343250F8.6DB1@sprynet.com> libidia wrote: > Are you trying to tell me, with above phrase, that you do not feel or > see even a little of the force of voice tone, facial expression, posture > at the keyboard, clothing style, energy expulsion, lightness/depth of > emotion..... in a posting? I can guess. I am not always correct. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 08:48:48 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Annie Besant's Birthday Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971001134848.01209e80@mail.eden.com> Oct 1 each year is celebrated in India in most TS Lodges and numerous educational institutions founded by Annie Besant, in recognition of the work she did in India. We may not agree with many things she did. But she was a born leader and orator and did get things done. She had established such incorruptible personal integrity that she was able to raise substantial funds for TS and other educational causes. It was during her time that the Adyar Estate was expanded from about 20 acres to nearly 400 acres. r@e From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:59:05 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The October THEOSOPHY WORLD is out Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970930145905.007c6e50@imagiware.com> The October issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents are: "Call for Papers" by Ernest Pelletier "What is It in Us that Sees the 'Passage of Time'?" by Dallas TenBroeck "Historic and Spiritual Truth" by Eldon Tucker "Theosophical Search Engine" by Scott J. Osterhage "Additions to Online Books" by Sarah Bell Dougherty "Studies in 'The Voice of the Silence', Part II" by B.P. Wadia "Book of Enlightened Masters" by Paul Johnson "Conditioned and Abstract Time" by Eldon Tucker "Light in the Daily Routine" by Annette Rivington "Animal, Group & Folk Souls" by Mark Kusek "Paradigms of Consciousness During Sleep" by Donald J. DeGracia, Ph.D. "Karma and the Victorian Mind" by Chuck Cosimano "Disseminating Theosophy" by Andrew Rooke THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:20:12 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: digest 1262 Message-ID: To -JRC: > 1. What *is* "advanced"? To me that what we call the LAW or pure spirit. > 2. By what outward signs would you recognize "advancement"? I am unable to recognize it by "outward" signs, but recognize it as love in everybody. > 3. Do you need to *be* "advanced" to recongize "advancement"? If you consider love to be an "advancement", yes. Just my opinion, Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:28:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Annie Besant's Birthday Message-ID: <971001132603_997807315@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-01 10:26:18 EDT, you write: >Oct 1 each year is celebrated in India in most TS Lodges and numerous >educational institutions founded by Annie Besant, in recognition of the work >she did in India. > Actually, Oct 1 is the birthday of someone who will be remembered long after Annie Besant is forgotten. Who? Atilla the Hun! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 14:12:17 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Hall of Records? Message-ID: <199710011812.OAA29615@leo.vsla.edu> As many of you may know, Edgar Cayce predicted the discovery in 1998 of a Hall of Records under the Sphinx which would contain 13,000+ year old records, some from Atlantis. Although I remain a skeptic about the date and the Atlantean connection, the lead article in the current Venture Inward reports that "An exploratory ecpedition in Egypt led by research scientist Joseph Schor has found evidence of a `huge underground room' beneath the Sphinx" which was announced at an annual A.R.E. conference on Egypt in August. The expedition spent 3 weeks in April 1996 and used radar. Schor claims that there's a room about 25 feet by 40, with parallel wals and a room about 35 feet below the surface. They can't tell where the floor is but think it's 60 to 80 feet below the surface. Zawi Hawass, director of the puramids at Giza, said that what the radar is showing could be a natural chasm rather than a manmade chamber, and "The accuracy of radar in describing underground anomalies remains unproven." No excavation will be allowed due to the danger of damaging the Sphinx. Drilling into the rock beneath it could be very harmful, as pieces of rock have already been falling off in recent years without any such interference. But Schor reported that there was a shaft only 6 feet below the surface which led to the room, and a permit has been applied for to clear it, which will require no drilling. But Hawass was skeptical about the prospects for this occurring, and said second and third opinions would be needed before proceeding. John Van Auken of A.R.E. said he was asking "an authoritative institution for an interpretation of the data from the radar, and then forward that opinion to the Egyptian Antiquities officials." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 15:02:55 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Elitism's source Message-ID: <199710011902.PAA07616@leo.vsla.edu> Nicole asks a big question, an important one, about where elitism comes from. (Yes, "spiritual elitism" is an oxymoron, but that doesn't stop it from being an epidemic.) In Theosophical context, I would say that a hierarchical view of the cosmos tends to trickle down to a hierarchical view of everything in it. The Masters are of course the main focus of reverence for hierarchy in the Theosophical movement; most of you know my conclusion that HPB's sponsors were in reality no hierarchy at all but a loose network. But she was saturated in the hierarchical mindset of esoteric Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, etc. from childhood. And her disciples wanted to hear about a grand unified universal brotherhood of wise men, not about a bunch of mentors she acquired and often dropped along a circuitous life path. If the central authority behind our sacred scriptures is a hierarchy, that implies that we can all measure ourselves and one another by how high we are on a ladder to adeptship. That's still the raison d'etre of the ES. That's half the problem with Theosophical elitism, IMO. The other half is the whole idea of occultism/esotericism. To the extent that some "knowledge" has been kept secret for the favored few and concealed from the unworthy masses, elitism is part and parcel of the allure of esoterica. Which means that the people attracted to these ideas are predisposed to want to be an elite. That goes back a long way, since Gnosticism for example reeks of it. As for where spiritual elitism in general comes from-- that's harder. I have noted before that 95% of the things people say in arguments about religion on the Net boils down to "Mine's better than yours." People are competitive because it was an evolutionary advantage in terms of physical survival. But the results are grotesque when the drive for oneupsmanship translates itself into the so-called spiritual realm. So I blame that old debbil biology for the drive to outrun, outshine, etc. the other guy; and blame the cultural traditions of esotericism and belief in hierarchy for the way it has manifested in the Theosophical movement. What do you think? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:08:58 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: David Icke Message-ID: <199710011915.PAA08346@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > Subject: David Icke > Date: Tuesday, September 30, 1997 9:54 PM > > Keith Price: There is going to be a big new age conference in Phonenix. I > got this blurb on David Icke. He supposedly had a spiritual experience > (initiation?) where it was revealed that there are secret societies that > control the world and keep us under a kind of hypnosis of consumerism, > dissatisfaction, addiction and so on. I kind of think this is going on, but > it isn't a conscious conspiracy, but a kind of collusion of delusion - > attachement to the material maya of this globe. Has anyone else heard of > this guy?? > I hate to tell you, but this sounds an awful like the fiction I'm writing. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:02:06 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Hall of Records? Message-ID: <199710020018.UAA12025@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: K. Paul Johnson > Subject: Hall of Records? > Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 1:12 PM > > As many of you may know, Edgar Cayce predicted the discovery in > 1998 of a Hall of Records under the Sphinx which would contain > 13,000+ year old records, some from Atlantis. If my memory serves me right, someone asked Cayce when the records would be found and he replied, "When humanity is ready." A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:39:09 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Advanced Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >Fortunately, we do have those >cases where a few candles and some gibberish provide the unadvanced with >the valuable information necessary for understanding what advancement is >all about. Advancement candles for sale at only $50 each .... Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:33:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A classic ? Message-ID: In message <34319C45.5DBD@globalserve.net>, libidia writes >But, seriously, I am forever, there is no time, separation is >impossible. In the "enlightened" moments (and they come at the darndest >times) this feeling of love overwhelms me. >Annette. Nice, isn't it? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:56:32 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: David Icke Message-ID: In message <199710011915.PAA08346@cliff.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >---------- >> From: JOSEPH PRICE >> Subject: David Icke >> Date: Tuesday, September 30, 1997 9:54 PM >> >> Keith Price: There is going to be a big new age conference in Phonenix. I >> got this blurb on David Icke. He supposedly had a spiritual experience >> (initiation?) where it was revealed that there are secret societies that >> control the world and keep us under a kind of hypnosis of consumerism, >> dissatisfaction, addiction and so on. I kind of think this is going on, but >> it isn't a conscious conspiracy, but a kind of collusion of delusion - >> attachement to the material maya of this globe. Has anyone else heard of >> this guy?? >> >> >I hate to tell you, but this sounds an awful like the fiction I'm writing. > >A. Safron David Icke is a Brit. He is almost entirely forgotten here now. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 01:18:22 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Elitism's source Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971002061822.00da65f0@mail.eden.com> Let me add my 2 cents on the question of hierarchy vs network structure. I am not a scholar in any sense nor have any first hand knowledge of the structure, so I am approaching it from a lay person's simple thinking. As far as the structure is concerned, all we can do is to speculate since there appears to be a lot that goes on in the multi-dimensional unseen world. So from one point of view, it can be seen as our familiar hierarchical structure. From another point of view it can be seen as a network. Both may be right. Neither can claim they only are right and the other view is wrong. May be one of these days (long days lasting manvantaras) each one of us will have a first hand understanding then the question will be solved completely. The reverence that HPB and Olcott and others showed to their Teachers is simply due to what they learnt from Them and simply one of gratitude for the help they got. In the natural order of things, there are those who are better than me in certain areas and there are those who are worse off. So expanding on this analogy, visualizing the possibility of some who are far ahead of me is easy. I do admire any one who achieved a feat. So if some feel reverence to anyone, it is ok with me, so long as some one does not force me to revere someone or something or some idea. As a human being, I am dealing with day to day matters every moment. From that point of view, it matters very little how the "inner matters" are organized. It reminds me of an anecdote of Olcott. In a lecture, someone asked him a question about Solar Logos. He quipped that he is not on talking terms with Solar Logos, so he is unable to help. I think I can say the same thing. I am not on talking terms (at least to the best of my knowledge) with any of the Higher Beings so to me personally it matters very little how the inner matters are organized. My concern is primarily one of what I can do to help other humans and living creatures, because it is something I can immediately and personally relate to in my waking consciousness. r@e ================================================= At 03:03 PM 10/1/97 -0400, you wrote: >Nicole asks a big question, an important one, about where >elitism comes from. (Yes, "spiritual elitism" is an oxymoron, >but that doesn't stop it from being an epidemic.) In >Theosophical context, I would say that a hierarchical view of the >cosmos tends to trickle down to a hierarchical view of >everything in it. The Masters are of course the main focus of >reverence for hierarchy in the Theosophical movement; most of >you know my conclusion that HPB's sponsors were in reality no >hierarchy at all but a loose network. But she was saturated in >the hierarchical mindset of esoteric Freemasonry, >Rosicrucianism, etc. from childhood. And her disciples wanted >to hear about a grand unified universal brotherhood of wise >men, not about a bunch of mentors she acquired and often >dropped along a circuitous life path. If the central >authority behind our sacred scriptures is a hierarchy, that >implies that we can all measure ourselves and one another by >how high we are on a ladder to adeptship. That's still the >raison d'etre of the ES. > >That's half the problem with Theosophical elitism, IMO. The >other half is the whole idea of occultism/esotericism. To the >extent that some "knowledge" has been kept secret for the >favored few and concealed from the unworthy masses, elitism is >part and parcel of the allure of esoterica. Which means that >the people attracted to these ideas are predisposed to want to >be an elite. That goes back a long way, since Gnosticism for >example reeks of it. > >As for where spiritual elitism in general comes from-- that's >harder. I have noted before that 95% of the things people say >in arguments about religion on the Net boils down to "Mine's >better than yours." People are competitive because it was an >evolutionary advantage in terms of physical survival. But the >results are grotesque when the drive for oneupsmanship >translates itself into the so-called spiritual realm. > >So I blame that old debbil biology for the drive to outrun, >outshine, etc. the other guy; and blame the cultural traditions >of esotericism and belief in hierarchy for the way it has >manifested in the Theosophical movement. > >What do you think? > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:46:00 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: David Icke Message-ID: To Keith Price: ..."and is fast winning an international reputation for saying what others fear to say." Wow - that world seems to have changed completly - I must admit, I have missed this enormous development. .."very public spiritual awakening"... thank you for that it makes me laughing! "Fearlessly he lifts the veil on an astonishing web of interconnected manipulation to reveal that the same few people, secret societies and organizations control the daily direction of our lives." Wow - what a human (?) being - I am speachless. ..."offers an inspiring spiritual solution"... Offers? For free? Inspiring spiritual? Makes me feel shivering. Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:37:22 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Elitism's source Message-ID: <199710021237.IAA10894@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: K. Paul Johnson > Subject: Elitism's source > Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 2:03 PM > > That's half the problem with Theosophical elitism, IMO. The > other half is the whole idea of occultism/esotericism. To the > extent that some "knowledge" has been kept secret for the > favored few and concealed from the unworthy masses, elitism is > part and parcel of the allure of esoterica. Which means that > the people attracted to these ideas are predisposed to want to > be an elite. That goes back a long way, since Gnosticism for > example reeks of it. > I cannot speak for others regarding Gnosticism, but the brief 2 years I was involved with it, I was not seeking elitism. I was attracted to its intuitive knowledge and writings. Perhaps that comes off as elitism to others because it is hard to understand. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 12:24:23 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Lecture/Seminar/Workshop in San Antonio, TX Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971003172423.006bb340@mail.eden.com> Betty Bland, National First Vice President of Theosophical Society in America is scheduled for the following programs at San Antonio TX TS Lodge. --------------------------------- Friday; Oct 17, 1997 - 8.00 PM Lecture: Near-Death Experiences: A Theosophical Perspective --------------------------------- Saturday; Oct 18, 1997 - 10.00AM -- 4.00PM Seminar/Workshop: Forgiveness and New Beginnings ---------------------------------- The above programs will take place at the San Antonio TS Lodge located at 725 West Ashby, San Antonio. All are welcome. For more information call: (210) 306-8505 or (210) 696-5550 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 16:46:12 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: India's charms Message-ID: <199710022046.QAA14747@leo.vsla.edu> My conscience has been prompting me to post a corrective to my recent comments about India. Although there were plenty of horrors witnessed in my six weeks there, each was counterbalanced by something wonderful. I began to feel that I knew what it was like to be manic-depressive. One minute I'd be thinking this was hell on earth, I couldn't stand another day of it, and then some kind, generous, friendly, interesting person would happen along and make my day. Or everything would be going along swimmingly, and I'd suddenly be confronted with aggressive, nasty, relentless behavior the likes of which I'd never seen before. The best thing about India is hard to describe. There was something magical in the air; it seemed as if parallel lines always met. For example, the first day I was walking around in Bombay and ran into the woman who'd been behind me in line at customs in the airport the night before, the man who'd been behind me in line at the moneychangers counter, and a third person they'd met. Nothing to that, but in the next half hour I ran into the same three people *four more times* and finally we all decided this was an omen that we should throw in our lot together. We had a great four days in Bombay, and the guys and I went on to New Delhi for another four. The whole period was like this-- constant encounters with people who just seemingly dropped from the sky in front of me offering companionship and help. Another example: at the Asiatic Society Library, I'd just concluded that I'd seen everything relevant to my research when a stranger walked up, asked me what I was researching, and upon hearing the subject advised me that Mme. Coulomb's (very rare) pamphlet was in the collection. I got some very helpful information from that. And so it went. Another pleasing thing about India was the atmosphere of total tolerance. In Bombay, you would see Westerners walking the streets in the most outrageous garb; eccentrics who would have turned heads and caused jaws to drop in any American city. But in India, nobody paid them any mind. People's sense of ego boundaries seems very different there, and after a while you forget you're a foreigner. It's a very welcoming place that seems to draw you in with a kind of magical enchantment. Until something grotesque and horrendous appears in your path, breaking the spell. Anyhow, partly in amends to Doss, I want to make it clear that I don't have a negative impression of India overall, despite some of the most vividly unpleasant experiences of my life. For every serpent, there was a flower-- and vice versa. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:53:03 -0400 From: "Mark Jaqua" Subject: Elitism Message-ID: <199710022047.QAA08069@sparticus.bright.net> Another angle on elitism in regards to society at large is self-survival. In the middle ages they burned the "gnostics", but today the same is often done, but on the subtler psychological and financial levels. Sounds like Ickes is taking an angle with some truth in it to an extreme. On "Masters" - recently ran across HPB's 1884 article "Is the Desire to Live Selfish?" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 13:51:16 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Elitism's source Message-ID: <199710022051.NAA17564@palrel1.hp.com> "K. Paul Johnson" wrote: [Network versus hierarchy stuff snipped] > That's half the problem with Theosophical elitism, IMO. The > other half is the whole idea of occultism/esotericism. To the > extent that some "knowledge" has been kept secret for the > favored few and concealed from the unworthy masses, elitism is > part and parcel of the allure of esoterica. Which means that > the people attracted to these ideas are predisposed to want to > be an elite. That goes back a long way, since Gnosticism for > example reeks of it. My $0.02 worth: I agree with Doss's remarks that you can look at things in hierarchical fashion or in "network" fashion. Both have some validity. Where "elitism" comes in is with ego comparisons. It is when we *identify* with knowledge that we get into trouble. I can admire one truth and think it is more accurate than another, but I don't think my admiration makes little old Titus any better than someone else. Furthermore, my application of that truth may be woefully inadequate. A fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist may live his life better than I, while subscribing to a more antiquated picture of the world. Let's not get rid of differences, but let's take the ego out of differences. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:31:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Those Elitist Gnostics Message-ID: <199710030139.VAA14205@NetGSI.com> >I cannot speak for others regarding Gnosticism, but the brief 2 >years I was involved with it, I was not seeking elitism. I was >attracted to its intuitive knowledge and writings. Perhaps that >comes off as elitism to others because it is hard to understand. > >A. Safron In a sense, Gnosticism was elitist. Valentinus, for example, taught that until you experienced gnosis--direct knowledge-- you were rather like a blind person or a student. He taught that we all had to tread our own path and experience spirituality within ourselves. This incensed the Christian fathers who wanted to promote the church and who taught that only through the church could we ever hope to come to God, etc. Anyone can join a church if they want to. Not everyone can experience gnosis, or even understand what it is. So Gnosticsm tended to build up a have/have-not mentality, although they did teach that anyone could experience gnosis if the desire was strong enough to go through all the necessary work. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 02:09:38 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Those Elitist Gnostics Message-ID: I have the desire...what is the necessary work??? Gnosticism is not a new term for me, however, in the past I've passed by it with the intention of figuring out what is was at a later date. (Kind of like I have been lately with this string...*smile*) Gnosis sounds like some kind of sudden, divine revelation. What exactly is it? And how would someone experience such a thing and not realize it? Do I need any candles??? --- Jaqi. > So Gnosticsm tended to build up a have/have-not > mentality, although they did teach that anyone could > experience gnosis if the desire was strong enough to go > through all the necessary work. > > Jerry S. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:28:35 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Elitism's source Message-ID: To all: thank you for all those interesting answers - I am especially fond of the one about the Solar Logos. And there is a new question - where does the human seeming need to measure come from? (Measuring is not choosing). What do you think about it? To Alan and Annette: ..."In the "enlightened" moments (and they come at the darndest times) this feeling of love overwhelms me. Annette. Nice, isn't it? Alan :-)" Especially while driving a car - it ends up with a softly landing in the road ditch and an astonishing strange looking though nonbroken car! On top of the love comes an almost never ending outbreak of laughter. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:43:27 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Those Elitist Gnostics Message-ID: <199710031245.IAA01208@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Jerry Schueler > Subject: Those Elitist Gnostics > Date: Thursday, October 02, 1997 8:40 PM > > In a sense, Gnosticism was elitist. Whatever. Since my departure from the Gnostic church in the Midwest because the bishop found it more to his liking to become the head of a male modeling agency than the head of a church, I really don't care. After two years of little training, he asked me to take over the church (and, of course) the work, so he could pursue his second job. I have no connection with gnostic church whatsoever at this time. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 09:37:47 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: India's charms Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971003143747.00bd6310@mail.eden.com> At 04:46 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Anyhow, partly in amends to Doss, I want to make it clear that >I don't have a negative impression of India overall, despite >some of the most vividly unpleasant experiences of my life. >For every serpent, there was a flower-- and vice versa. > Paul: No need for any amends. I was fixing to respond earlier. But decided not to. One does not understand a country in a short time. It took several years of staying in the US to get a better feel for what is going on. May be you may get an opportunity in the future to spend a couple of years in India so that you can get a better understanding. Any how thanks for the consideration. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 09:37:48 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: A Quote Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971003143748.00bd7c60@mail.eden.com> I just saw the following Quote of Buddha. ====== r@e "Therefore, Ananda, be ye lamps unto yourselves, be ye a refuge to yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp; hold fast to the Truth as a refuge; look not for a refuge in anyone beside yourselves. And those, Ananda, who either now or after I am dead shall be a lamp unto themselves, shall betake themselves to no external refuge, but holding fast to the Truth as their lamp, and holding fast to the Truth as their refuge, shall not look for refuge to anyone beside themselves- it is they who shall reach the topmost Height." Buddha From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 97 22:22:33 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: RE: A Quote Message-ID: "Therefore, Ananda, be ye lamps unto yourselves, be ye a refuge to yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp; hold fast to the Truth as a refuge; look not for a refuge in anyone beside yourselves. And those, Ananda, who either now or after I am dead shall be a lamp unto themselves, shall betake themselves to no external refuge, but holding fast to the Truth as their lamp, and holding fast to the Truth as their refuge, shall not look for refuge to anyone beside themselves- it is they who shall reach the topmost Height." Buddha KEITH PRICE: I couldn't help but think of the "HERMIT" tarot card, carrying his lamp - alone - holding the truth close and searching for those to share his light. But perhaps this isn't the only spiritual path. Some may be doing the best they can with cards such as the TOWER, MOON and even the DEVIL, We have all the archetypes within us, in the world and in our dreams. This is the essence of Gnosticism for me, carried into the modern world most famously by C. G. Jung. I can't remember his exact quotation, but Jung had two specific comments on theosophists, neither very flattering. He seemed to view them as people who applied Eastern wisdom like beauty lotion. They didn't so much storm Eastern temples, as bask in the exoticism of the symbols of all religions as one would take a Theosophical bubble bath. He saw theosophist as dillettantes who never grew into any tradition, but were in a constant adolescent "search". Does any of this ring true? Well yes, for me I have tried Zen until I realized you eventually one had to accept all the OUTTER trappings like celebrating Budda (at least for most, Alan Watts is an obvious exception, but he died of alcoholism, not a pretty ending for one who touched so many and crashed at the end). With Sufism, the Mohamed thing turned me off . . . and on and on. Perhaps Budda was right, the lamp is inside and organizations offer support, but demand loyalty at some point, even if they are far from perfect. Only in meditation, have a come to find any peace amid the marketplace. K Paul Johnson's remarks on India pretty much confirm what I've heard. A land of extremes for the Westerner. I think it would open one's eyes to any "idealization" of the East one might have. I still would like to go sometimes! Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 97 22:41:39 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Conspiracy Theories - Facts or Fiction Message-ID: On David Icke:I hate to tell you, but this sounds an awful like the fiction I'm writing. A. Safron I would like to hear more about your fiction. I know Robert A Wilson (RAW) has made quite a living writing on THE ILLUMINATI which some take as fact. I am thinking about writing about an idea that came out of nowhere and more than captured my imagination last October. I feared that Virutal Reality had been perfected and that there would be a staged "alien" invasion on Halloween. I believed that the "flying windows" screen saver and TV would be used to bring the invasion "right into your home". The world would bow down to the invaders out of fear and make "sacrifices" on the astral plane of fear and pain, as the "aliens" seemed to feed off these human emotions, instead of the usual "blood" of vampires. Psychic vampires, I think Chuck called them. Anyway, I guess a conspiracy is what you make it, fact or fiction, delusion or absurdity .....I think most religions begin as secret, conspiratorial, but when they get control, they are quite real in their effects. Nazism was founded on a conspiracy theory. People always wonder how such a madman got control of an entire nation. The unconscious of the German people was quite open to the infection of Nazism, as our time is open to the idea of alien invasion or 'contact'. The Gnostics believed Sophia or The Savior would return on some angelic level to restore them, the "knowing ones" to the original unity before the fall. The Heaven's Gate cultists believed an alien ship would do the same. God have mercy on us all. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:50:44 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: India's charms Message-ID: <199710032351.TAA24751@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > Subject: Re: India's charms > Date: Friday, October 03, 1997 9:40 AM > > Paul: No need for any amends. I was fixing to respond earlier. But decided > not to. One does not understand a country in a short time. It took several > years of staying in the US to get a better feel for what is going on. May be > you may get an opportunity in the future to spend a couple of years in India > so that you can get a better understanding. . . . How about a couple of lifetimes? :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 18:57:51 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Fw: wave Message-ID: <199710032359.TAA26514@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: A. Safron > > >>>>>Sometimes, we all need a little friendly WAVE to brighten our days. > >>>>> > >>>>>Hold your cursor on the scroll down bar (to the right) and enjoy (or > at > >>>>>least wonder)! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>Hi everyone! > >>>>>Hi everyone ! > >>>>>Hi everyone ! > >>>>>Hi everyone ! > >>>>>Hi everyone ! > >>>>>Hi everyone ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>> H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ev e r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi eve r y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi ever y o n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi every o n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyo n e ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyon e ! > >>>>>Hi everyone ! > >>>>>Hi everyone ! 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> >>>>>Hi everyone > >>>>>Hi everyon > >>>>>Hi everyo > >>>>>Hi every > >>>>>Hi ever > >>>>>Hi eve > >>>>>Hi ev > >>>>>Hi e > >>>>>Hi > >>>>>H > >>>>>Hi > >>>>>Hi e > >>>>>Hi ev > >>>>>Hi eve > >>>>>Hi ever > >>>>>Hi every > >>>>>Hi everyo > >>>>>Hi everyon > >>>>>Hi everyone > >>>>>Hi everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e ! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o n e! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y o ne! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r y one! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e r yone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v e ryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e v eryone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i e veryone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>H i everyone! > >>>>>Hi everyone! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >> > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:12:34 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Fw: wave Message-ID: Wow. That would've taken forever... --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 19:52:22 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: India's charms Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971004005222.01005fec@mail.eden.com> At 07:51 PM 10/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> Subject: Re: India's charms >> Date: Friday, October 03, 1997 9:40 AM >> >> >> Paul: No need for any amends. I was fixing to respond earlier. But decided >> not to. One does not understand a country in a short time. It took several >> years of staying in the US to get a better feel for what is going on. May be >> you may get an opportunity in the future to spend a couple of years in India >> so that you can get a better understanding. . . . > >How about a couple of lifetimes? :-) > Sure, if it is possible. r@e From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 19:55:31 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: RE: A Quote Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971004005531.0102f2c8@mail.eden.com> At 06:28 PM 10/3/97 -0400, you wrote: > >"Therefore, Ananda, be ye lamps unto yourselves, be ye a >refuge to yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external >refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp; hold fast to >the Truth as a refuge; look not for a refuge in >anyone beside yourselves. And those, Ananda, who either >now or after I am dead shall be a lamp unto themselves, >shall betake themselves to no external refuge, but holding >fast to the Truth as their lamp, and holding >fast to the Truth as their refuge, shall not look >for refuge to anyone beside themselves- it is they who >shall reach the topmost Height." > > Buddha >KEITH PRICE: I couldn't help but think of the "HERMIT" tarot card, carrying >his lamp - alone - holding the truth close and searching for those to share >his light. >But perhaps this isn't the only spiritual path. Some may be doing the best >they can with cards such as the TOWER, MOON and even the DEVIL, > >We have all the archetypes within us, in the world and in our dreams. This is >the essence of Gnosticism for me, carried into the modern world most famously >by C. G. Jung. I can't remember his exact quotation, but Jung had two >specific comments on theosophists, neither very flattering. He seemed to view >them as people who applied Eastern wisdom like beauty lotion. They didn't so >much storm Eastern temples, as bask in the exoticism of the symbols of all >religions as one would take a Theosophical bubble bath. He saw theosophist as >dillettantes who never grew into any tradition, but were in a constant >adolescent "search". Does any of this ring true? Well yes, for me I have >tried Zen until I realized you eventually one had to accept all the OUTTER >trappings like celebrating Budda (at least for most, Alan Watts is an obvious >exception, but he died of alcoholism, not a pretty ending for one who touched >so many and crashed at the end). With Sufism, the Mohamed thing turned me off >. . . and on and on. Perhaps Budda was right, the lamp is inside and >organizations offer support, but demand loyalty at some point, even if they >are far from perfect. Only in meditation, have a come to find any peace amid >the marketplace. It is not only loyalty. The seek to control -- generally thru fear or some "reward" now or hereafter at a future date. Of course many find it easy and comfortable in such an environment. .....r@e > >K Paul Johnson's remarks on India pretty much confirm what I've heard. A land >of extremes for the Westerner. I think it would open one's eyes to any >"idealization" of the East one might have. I still would like to go >sometimes! >Namaste >Keith Price > I hope you will find an opportunity to go to the East. r@e From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 02:33:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A Quote Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Jung had two >specific comments on theosophists, neither very flattering. He seemed to view >them as people who applied Eastern wisdom like beauty lotion. They didn't so >much storm Eastern temples, as bask in the exoticism of the symbols of all >religions as one would take a Theosophical bubble bath. He saw theosophist as >dillettantes who never grew into any tradition, but were in a constant >adolescent "search". Does any of this ring true? Oh boy, does it! I love the idea of a Theosophical bubble bath. I recently saw (in a book) a picture of Annie Besant and other very important Theosophists engaged in a very esoteric pursuit - playing croquet .... just the thing for the brotherhood of humanity, don't you think? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 02:39:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theories - Facts or Fiction Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >God have mercy on us all. >Namaste >Keith Price Only if you are all VERY VERY GOOD girls and boys. God. [signed] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 01:11:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: wave Message-ID: <971004011150_-1262431588@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-03 20:01:12 EDT, you write: >> From: A. Safron >> >> >> >>>>>Sometimes, we all need a little friendly WAVE to brighten our days. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>Hold your cursor on the scroll down bar (to the right) and enjoy (or >> at >> >>>>>least wonder)! OOOOOOHHHHHH! I'm getting sick. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 01:16:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: A Quote Message-ID: <971004011619_1924418589@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-04 00:14:53 EDT, you write: >Oh boy, does it! I love the idea of a Theosophical bubble bath. I >recently saw (in a book) a picture of Annie Besant and other very >important Theosophists engaged in a very esoteric pursuit - playing >croquet .... just the thing for the brotherhood of humanity, don't you >think? > >Alan :-) A better one than that! The old film footage of AB and CWL laying the cornerstone at Olcott in their ridiculous mason get-up. Nothing brings people together better than laughter. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 02:23:01 -0400 From: "Mark Jaqua" Subject: Jung Message-ID: <199710040617.CAA23162@sparticus.bright.net> I think Jung had a superficial view of Theosophy, which I did too until I actually started reading Blavatsky and the Mahatma Letters. Check out the Probation section in the Mahatma Letters and some of Blavatsky's articles like "Chelas and Lay Chelas". He probably judged it from some of the shennanigans going on out of Adyar at the time. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:13:50 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Fw: wave Message-ID: <199710041220.IAA24807@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Fw: wave > Date: Saturday, October 04, 1997 12:12 AM > > In a message dated 97-10-03 20:01:12 EDT, you write: > > >> From: A. Safron > >> > >> > >> >>>>>Sometimes, we all need a little friendly WAVE to brighten our days. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>Hold your cursor on the scroll down bar (to the right) and enjoy (or > >> at > >> >>>>>least wonder)! > > OOOOOOHHHHHH! I'm getting sick. > Wow! How do you handle a merry-go-round? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:19:21 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theories - Facts or Fiction Message-ID: <199710041220.IAA24815@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > Subject: Conspiracy Theories - Facts or Fiction > Date: Friday, October 03, 1997 5:52 PM > > On David Icke:I hate to tell you, but this sounds an awful like the fiction > I'm writing. > > A. Safron > > I would like to hear more about your fiction. I know Robert A Wilson (RAW) > has made quite a living writing on THE ILLUMINATI which some take as fact. > I think RAW, who I saw once in person with Timothy Leary, wrote most of his stuff on LSD, magic mushrooms or airplane glue. Mine just comes through, just like Keith Richard's music does. BTW, I was thinking last night that maybe the Masters could be ALIENS from another planet, galaxy,universe, etc. Now this is the kind of conversation about the Masters I could get into! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 07:34:29 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theories - Facts or Fiction Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971004123429.01257c6c@mail.eden.com> At 08:20 AM 10/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: JOSEPH PRICE >> Subject: Conspiracy Theories - Facts or Fiction >> Date: Friday, October 03, 1997 5:52 PM >> >> On David Icke:I hate to tell you, but this sounds an awful like the fiction >> I'm writing. >> >> A. Safron >> >> I would like to hear more about your fiction. I know Robert A Wilson (RAW) >> has made quite a living writing on THE ILLUMINATI which some take as fact. >> >I think RAW, who I saw once in person with Timothy Leary, wrote most of his >stuff on LSD, magic mushrooms or airplane glue. Mine just comes through, >just like Keith Richard's music does. > >BTW, I was thinking last night that maybe the Masters could be ALIENS from >another planet, galaxy,universe, etc. Now this is the kind of conversation about >the Masters I could get into! > >A. Safron Anything is possible. Who knows. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:40:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: wave Message-ID: <971004114030_-859864373@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-04 08:21:36 EDT, you write: >Wow! How do you handle a merry-go-round? > >A. Safron Badly. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:41:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theories - Facts or Fiction Message-ID: <971004113948_-1094794677@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-04 08:21:14 EDT, you write: > >BTW, I was thinking last night that maybe the Masters could be ALIENS from >another planet, galaxy,universe, etc. Now this is the kind of conversation >about >the Masters I could get into! > >A. Safron I hope they aren't from the Plieades because I just blew them up. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 15:06:59 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: A Quote Message-ID: <343693D3.15A6@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > First off, to answer Keith, > In message , JOSEPH PRICE > writes > >Jung had two > >specific comments on theosophists, neither very flattering. He seemed to view > >them as people who applied Eastern wisdom like beauty lotion. They didn't so > >much storm Eastern temples, as bask in the exoticism of the symbols of all > >religions as one would take a Theosophical bubble bath. He saw theosophist as > >dillettantes who never grew into any tradition, but were in a constant > >adolescent "search". Does any of this ring true? Of course, the Mahatma's said that one should seek the truth through one's own religious tradition. But I (and many others) see traditions as a lot of garbage with some diamonds mixed in. Jung seems to think that one should embrace the garbage to get the diamonds. I am more of the opinion that one should dump the garbage, and keep only the diamonds. If that's an "adolescent search", then so be it. Those who think so can live in their own refuse. Now for Alan... > Oh boy, does it! I love the idea of a Theosophical bubble bath. I > recently saw (in a book) a picture of Annie Besant and other very > important Theosophists engaged in a very esoteric pursuit - playing > croquet .... just the thing for the brotherhood of humanity, don't you > think? I have been known to be sarcastic, and overreact in the past. In this case, however, I really don't understand your message. I can't see how croquet is important to the brotherhood of humanity, so you must be showing sarcasm, except that I can't see how playing croquet could be working AGAINST the brotherhood of humanity either. It seems to be a relatively neutral pursuit. Annie Besant certainly had her share of faults, but I would not consider playing croquet to be one of them. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:08:26 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A Quote Message-ID: In message <343693D3.15A6@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >> Oh boy, does it! I love the idea of a Theosophical bubble bath. I >> recently saw (in a book) a picture of Annie Besant and other very >> important Theosophists engaged in a very esoteric pursuit - playing >> croquet .... just the thing for the brotherhood of humanity, don't you >> think? > > I have been known to be sarcastic, and overreact in the past. So I've noticed :-) > In this >case, however, I really don't understand your message. I can't see how >croquet is important to the brotherhood of humanity, so you must be >showing sarcasm, English sarcasm. > except that I can't see how playing croquet could be >working AGAINST the brotherhood of humanity either. It seems to be a >relatively neutral pursuit. Annie Besant certainly had her share of >faults, but I would not consider playing croquet to be one of them. Hardly a fault or a virtue; I was subtly [failed] attempting to bring attention the the fact that the earlier Theosophists, who were relatively few per head of population, were mostly of the class who could *afford* to play croquet - very much an "upper-crust" pusuit in those days, not to mention the time involved. It was these people (such as the famous Miss Dodge) who poured funds into the TS, fed and clothed Krishnamurti, bought large amounts of real estate for the Society, etc. "Humanity" in the shape of the great mass of working people hardly got a look in. Oh well. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:00:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theories - Facts or Fiction Message-ID: In message <199710041220.IAA24815@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >BTW, I was thinking last night that maybe the Masters could be ALIENS from >another planet, galaxy,universe, etc. Now this is the kind of conversation >about >the Masters I could get into! > >A. Safron More likely that the Masters think WE are aliens from another planet ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 19:41:51 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: A Quote Message-ID: <199710051237.IAA02814@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Re: A Quote > Date: Saturday, October 04, 1997 7:22 PM > > Hardly a fault or a virtue; I was subtly [failed] attempting to bring > attention the the fact that the earlier Theosophists, who were > relatively few per head of population, were mostly of the class who > could *afford* to play croquet - very much an "upper-crust" pusuit in > those days, not to mention the time involved. It was these people (such > as the famous Miss Dodge) who poured funds into the TS, fed and clothed > Krishnamurti, bought large amounts of real estate for the Society, etc. > "Humanity" in the shape of the great mass of working people hardly got a > look in. > Pretty much what I thought you were trying to say symbolically, Alan. I think a tincture of that elitism, upper-crustism, aristocratic feeling exists in the attitudes of some members today. Also in their literature. Alas, I think most people just want to hear how to deal with the problems of their rather unaristocratic lives. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:00:40 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Quote Message-ID: <199710051901.PAA18376@cliff.concentric.net> I found this while browsing the web and thought it was worth repeating: The quickest way to change the world is to be of service to others. Show that your love can make a difference in the lives of people and thereby someone else's love can make a difference in your life. By each of us doing that and working together we change the world one inner person at a time. -- Dannion Brinkley From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 19:33:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Quote Message-ID: <971005193108_979512864@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-05 15:09:17 EDT, you write: >By each of us doing that and working together we change the world > one inner person at a time. > > -- Dannion Brinkley > There's a quicker way to change the world but nuclear war is out of fashion at the moment. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 19:06:50 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Quote Message-ID: <199710060008.UAA28976@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Quote > Date: Sunday, October 05, 1997 6:34 PM > > In a message dated 97-10-05 15:09:17 EDT, you write: > > >By each of us doing that and working together we change the world > > one inner person at a time. > > > > > > -- Dannion Brinkley > > > > There's a quicker way to change the world but nuclear war is out of fashion > at the moment. I don't know if you've heard of Douglas Adams - "The highway's comin' through." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 01:04:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Quote Message-ID: <971006010408_1833080372@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-05 20:19:38 EDT, you write: >I don't know if you've heard of Douglas Adams - "The highway's comin' >through." not right off hand. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:22:07 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1265 Message-ID: To Titus: "Let's not get rid of differences, but let's take the ego out of differences." You speek out of the very root of my heart saying this! Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:26:16 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: see below Message-ID: wave from A. Safron: wow - this is wonderful! A Quote from Bart Lidofsky: "Jung seems to think that one should embrace the garbage to get the diamonds. I am more of the opinion that one should dump the garbage, and keep only the diamonds." That's an interesting thought you have here. But why do you wish to dump the garbage? Is the garbage not simply that, what w e define as "garbage"? Just a thought ... and I wish you lots of diamonds! To Chuck: "There's a quicker way to change the world but nuclear war is out of fashion" Don't worry, fashions change - but please blow me up to the Plieades before the "quicker way-changings" start. Nicole at the moment. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:31:42 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Quote Message-ID: <199710061532.LAA02622@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Quote > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 12:05 AM > > In a message dated 97-10-05 20:19:38 EDT, you write: > > >I don't know if you've heard of Douglas Adams - "The highway's comin' > >through." > > not right off hand. > > Chuck the Heretic In his book, the aliens needed a new highway in space and guess what planet what in the way. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:13:36 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: see below Message-ID: <34391C40.614F@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > A Quote from Bart Lidofsky: "Jung seems to think that one should > embrace the garbage to get the diamonds. I am more of the opinion > that one should dump the garbage, and keep only the diamonds." > > That's an interesting thought you have here. But why do you wish > to dump the garbage? Is the garbage not simply that, what w e define > as "garbage"? Just a thought ... and I wish you lots of diamonds! I was using iconical garbage, not actual garbage. Iconical garbage is, by definition, worthless (just as iconical diamonds are, by definition, valuable, even if one does not happen to have any use for diamonds personally). Iconically, Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:15:34 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Quote Message-ID: <34391CB6.D4E@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > In his book, the aliens needed a new highway in space and guess what planet > what in the way. Sorry; the Vogons HAD a highway. What they needed was an intergalactic bypass. And they did give the Earth 20 years notice; all we had to do was go to the clerk's office in the Alpha Centauri system, and we would have seen the notice there. Don't panic! Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:28:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Quote Message-ID: <971006132630_1857520641@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-06 11:36:17 EDT, you write: >In his book, the aliens needed a new highway in space and guess what planet >what in the way. > >A. Safron Now I remember. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 97 21:54:09 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: BTW, I was thinking last night that maybe the Masters could be ALIENS from >another planet, galaxy,universe, etc. Now this is the kind of conversation >about >the Masters I could get into! > >A. Safron More likely that the Masters think WE are aliens from another planet ... Alan Keith Price: Not to get to far afield, but Zechiraih Sitchen has gained notice by extending the CHAIROT OF THE GODS theory to Absynnian scrolls who only he (it seems) can read accurately. He concludes that we are a laboratory - a petrie dish of humanity - growing like a culture of bacteria for advanced beings who return every millenium or so to check how we are evolvoing. The Masters might be their secret agents. Oh, how the romantic imagination can spin ....! :) They may be alien to us if they are operating on the buddhic and atmic levels which could be dimensions enfolded withour current 3(or 4) dimensional perception. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 18:13:58 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <343962A6.44AA@sprynet.com> JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > Not to get to far afield, but Zechiraih Sitchen has gained notice by extending > the CHAIROT OF THE GODS theory to Absynnian scrolls who only he (it seems) can > read accurately. The "Chariots of the Gods" theory has long been discredited. EVD's "evidence" took advantage of cases where what science has discovered defies what people would expect. Experts in every field he covered were unanimous: "He makes a lot of sense, except in MY field, where he doesn't know what he's talking about!". In addition, it is a basically racist theory: if white Europeans discover something, it is because they are smart; if non-white non-Europeans discover something, they must have had help from aliens. Pfui. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:14:01 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Quote Message-ID: <199710062314.TAA09832@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Quote > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 12:17 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > In his book, the aliens needed a new highway in space and guess what planet > > what in the way. > > Sorry; the Vogons HAD a highway. What they needed was an intergalactic > bypass. And they did give the Earth 20 years notice; all we had to do > was go to the clerk's office in the Alpha Centauri system, and we would > have seen the notice there. > > Don't panic! > Bart Lidofsky No, I won't panic because I simply hadn't read the book in years and didn't have it in front of me. But NOW we know the real story, don't we? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 18:48:40 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Buddhism in USA Message-ID: <343978D8.7EA@eden.com> The latest issue of Time Magazine covers Buddhism in USA. Anyone interested can go to www.time.com and read the article. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:29:21 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710070032.UAA04187@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > Subject: Masters as Aliens > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 5:00 PM > > Not to get to far afield, but Zechiraih Sitchen has gained notice by extending > the CHAIROT OF THE GODS theory to Absynnian scrolls who only he (it seems) can > read accurately. He concludes that we are a laboratory - a petrie dish of > humanity - growing like a culture of bacteria for advanced beings who return > every millenium or so to check how we are evolvoing. The Masters might be > their secret agents. Oh, how the romantic imagination can spin ....! :) They > may be alien to us if they are operating on the buddhic and atmic levels which > could be dimensions enfolded withour current 3(or 4) dimensional perception. > > Namaste > Keith When I saw John Mack, Harvard Psychiatrist and Pulitzer Prize winner, at the World Parliament of Religions in Chicago, he proposed to a packed room that perhaps the aliens were coming from another dimension - like the astral plane. Dr. Mack has done extensive work with abductees and in his book, "Abduction", says that there is really no way to get around being abducted. If they want you as a specimen, the only recourse is to psychologically adjust to it. Some of the stories in his books actually talk about some of the people viewing their experiences as peak spiritual experiences, while others only see them as trauma for which they need therapy. The only way I've ever read about to avoid being abducted is to set up a video camera in your bedroom and keep it running all night. They don't want to be seen or recorded. In the Vol. 5, No. 2 1990 issue of UFO magazine, there are articles dedicated to UFOs and Religion, Space Theology, Miracles and Visions. These are articles written by figures in the ufology community. In an article by Neil Freer, entitled "In Tune With Our True History", he still supports that idea that aliens were the "gods" of the Bible and says, " If you want to see a least a half-breed alien, look in the mirror." There's a more recent book, very popular because there's an article in it about the Heaven's Gate group, before their demise. Two researchers infiltrated the group and took notes, then got out when things got too crazy. (Or is it always crazy?) Anyway, the title of the book is "The Gods have Landed" and I highly recommend it. It talks about religions that are dedicated to UFOs and science, rather than the religion figures of the past. Rather Aquarius, in it's own way. There's an article in it by TS's own Robert Ellwood. You can get the book publisher phone number off the web, call in with your credit card and a week later have it in your hot little hands. Ah, technology. What do I believe? Well, I had to absorb all this UFO stuff for my fiction novel, so I look at it more as a researcher than anything else. But I lean towards the fact that aliens are using us for cross-breeding purposes and experimentation. Hell, what's to stop them. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:30:57 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710070032.UAA04210@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 5:16 PM > > In addition, it is a basically racist theory: if white Europeans > discover something, it is because they are smart; if non-white > non-Europeans discover something, they must have had help from aliens. > Is there a lot of racism in New York? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 21:10:39 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <34398C0F.4FA7@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Bart Lidofsky > > Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens > > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 5:16 PM > > > > In addition, it is a basically racist theory: if white Europeans > > discover something, it is because they are smart; if non-white > > non-Europeans discover something, they must have had help from aliens. > > > Is there a lot of racism in New York? Compared to what? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 02:30:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >More likely that the Masters think WE are aliens from another planet ... > >Alan >Keith Price: > >Not to get to far afield, but Zechiraih Sitchen has gained notice by extending >the CHAIROT OF THE GODS theory to Absynnian scrolls who only he (it seems) can >read accurately. He concludes that we are a laboratory - a petrie dish of >humanity - growing like a culture of bacteria for advanced beings who return >every millenium or so to check how we are evolvoing. The Masters might be >their secret agents. Oh, how the romantic imagination can spin ....! :) They >may be alien to us if they are operating on the buddhic and atmic levels which >could be dimensions enfolded withour current 3(or 4) dimensional perception. > >Namaste >Keith Gulp! please send valium .... Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:56:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <971007005616_1965678818@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-06 20:33:43 EDT, you write: >What do I believe? Well, I had to absorb all this UFO stuff for my fiction >novel, so I look >at it more as a researcher than anything else. But I lean towards the fact >that aliens are >using us for cross-breeding purposes and experimentation. Hell, what's to >stop them. > >A. Safron In the late 1940's Whilhelm Reich used his cloud buster to disable three ufos. If they are as telepathic as they claim to be they are extremely vulnerable to psionics and there are reports of potential abductees saving themselves by sending concentrated thoughts of pure hate at them. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:53:45 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: "see below" Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: "I was using iconical garbage, not actual garbage. Iconical garbage is, by definition, worthless (just as iconical diamonds are, by definition, valuable, even if one does not happen to have any use for diamonds personally)." Iconical garbage = worthless Iconical diamonds = valuable (but not for personal use)! Is this correct? If yes - could I please have an exact definition of the two expressions "worthless" and "valuable"? "Iconically, Bart Lidofsky" Iconically? Wouw! Thank you very much, it is the first "Iconically," in my whole live. Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:37:26 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710071243.IAA02598@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 11:56 PM > > In the late 1940's Whilhelm Reich used his cloud buster to disable three > ufos. If they are as telepathic as they claim to be they are extremely > vulnerable to psionics and there are reports of potential abductees saving > themselves by sending concentrated thoughts of pure hate at them. > > Chuck the Heretic In what way do they save themselves by concentrated thoughts - do the outer space guys just back off, run back to their ships and fly off? This is the first I've heard of any defense systems. Care to elaborate on the psionic idea? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:40:03 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710071243.IAA02606@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 8:12 PM > > > Is there a lot of racism in New York? > > Compared to what? > > Bart Lidofsky I hear there's a lot more tolerance in San Francisco, while Chicago is one of the racist cities in the country. I've never heard anything about New York, so I thought I'd ask you. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:42:26 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Fw: More: Why did the chicken cross the road? Message-ID: <199710071243.IAA02611@newman.concentric.net> > Why did the chicken cross the road? -- answered by various famous > people. > > Fox Mulder: You saw it cross the road with your own eyes. How many > more chickens have to cross the road before you believe it? > > Richard M. Nixon: The chicken did not cross the road. I repeat, the > Chicken did not cross the road > > Jerry Seinfeld: Why does anyone cross a road? I mean, why doesn't > anyone ever think to ask, "What the heck was this chicken doing walking > around all over the place anyway?" > > Bill Gates: I have just released the new Chicken Office 2000, which will > not only cross roads, but it will lay eggs, file your important documents > AND balance your checkbook. Unfortunately, when it divides 3 by 2 it gets > 1.4999999999. > > Oliver Stone: The question is not "Why did the chicken cross the road?" > But is rather "Who was crossing the road at the same time, whom have we > overlooked in our haste to observe the chicken crossing?" > > Charles Darwin: Chickens, over great periods of time, have been naturally > selected in such a way that they are now genetically dispositioned to > cross > roads. > > Grandpa: In my day, we didn't ask why the chicken crossed the road. > Someone told us that the chicken had crossed the road, and that was good > enough for us. > > Machiavelli: The point is that the chicken crossed the road. Who cares > why? The end of crossing the road justifies whatever motive there was. > > Albert Einstein: Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road moved > beneath the chicken depends upon your frame of reference. > > Buddha: Asking this question denies your own chicken nature. > > Ralph Waldo Emerson: The chicken did not cross the road – it transcended > it. > > Ernest Hemingway: To die. In the rain. > > Colonel Sanders: I missed one? > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:20:17 -0400 From: "libidia" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1269 Message-ID: <01bcd33c$e69eda40$45865ad1@libidium> > 12) Buddhism in USA > by ramadoss@eden.com Thanks for the reference...doss. Something to look forward to reading. I'm just home from emergency kidney surgery and feeling kinda fragile physically, but have to tell you that spiritually I was real strong. The surgeon is this tall, gentle guy with an Indian name I can't pronounce and I liked the feel of him the moment I saw him. I was interested to see what would happen during anaesthetic, but it was just a blackness from out to back in. My dad died in PA at the same time as I was in surgery. Lots to think about. Still reading. Take care you lot. Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:50:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <971007134841_931517832@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-07 08:51:42 EDT, you write: >In what way do they save themselves by concentrated thoughts - do >the outer space guys just back off, run back to their ships and fly off? > Apparently they just sort of back off. I don't know the details. >This is the first I've heard of any defense systems. Care to elaborate on >the psionic idea? > >A. Safron Essentially it uses the amplification and direction capabilities of psionic equipment to fry their gray little brains. Since they have to remain open to telepathy in order to communicate with each other, that means they are vulnerable to anything else that is sent them. Pure anger and hatred, amplified by a psionic device, may be able to kill them in serious large numbers at the same time, sort of a mind bomb. The other possible use for psionics is to interfere with the control and drive systems of their vehicles, causing them to malfunction and crash. Using the right equipment, it is theoretically possible to find and depopulate their home world without leaving the comfort of your living room. There is, in fact, an organization that is already working on doing just that. No, I am not part of it, but they use a lot of my designs. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:02:17 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1269 Message-ID: <199710071902.PAA15661@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: libidia > Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1269 > Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 11:20 AM > > > 12) Buddhism in USA > > by ramadoss@eden.com > Thanks for the reference...doss. Something to look forward to reading. I'm > just home from emergency kidney surgery and feeling kinda fragile > physically, but have to tell you that spiritually I was real strong. The > surgeon is this tall, gentle guy with an Indian name I can't pronounce and I > liked the feel of him the moment I saw him. I was interested to see what > would happen during anaesthetic, but it was just a blackness from out to > back in. My dad died in PA at the same time as I was in surgery. Lots to > think about. Still reading. Take care you lot. Annette. > Hope you are rapidly on the mend. In the days after my father died, he used to appear in my dreams. Not every night, but just before something important was supposed to happen. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:49:13 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710071949.NAA09295@mailmx.micron.net> Chuck wrote: >Essentially it uses the amplification and direction capabilities of psionic >equipment to fry their gray little brains. Since they have to remain open to >telepathy in order to communicate with each other, that means they are >vulnerable to anything else that is sent them. Pure anger and hatred, >amplified by a psionic device, may be able to kill them in serious large >numbers at the same time, sort of a mind bomb. Hmmm. . .so the psionic people have figured out how to further utilize and extend "pure anger and hatred." How. . .honorable. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:50:34 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Gnosis Message-ID: <199710072018.QAA23210@NetGSI.com> >I have the desire...what is the necessary work??? Lifetimes devoted to compassion for others, among other things. >Gnosis sounds like some kind of sudden, divine revelation. What exactly >is it? And how would someone experience such a thing and not realize it? I doubt that anyone now living knows exactly what the Gnostics meant by that term. However, it does seem to imply some kind of direct seeing or direct experience of divinity, and so is probably similar, if not identical, to the Buddhist satori. Many people do have these experiences (in our society we call them mystical experiences) and are freightened or upset by them. This is one of the things that transpersonal psychology is currently working on. They call it a "spiritual emergency" because the person has a spiritual experience with no preparation for it. >Do I need any candles??? >--- >Jaqi. Only if you want to see in the dark. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:52:06 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Those Elitist Gnostics Message-ID: <199710072018.QAA23215@NetGSI.com> >I have no connection with gnostic church whatsoever at this time. > >A. Safron Nor do I. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:05:09 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <199710072018.QAA23217@NetGSI.com> >Hardly a fault or a virtue; I was subtly [failed] attempting to bring >attention the the fact that the earlier Theosophists, who were >relatively few per head of population, were mostly of the class who >could *afford* to play croquet - very much an "upper-crust" pusuit in >those days, not to mention the time involved. It was these people (such >as the famous Miss Dodge) who poured funds into the TS, fed and clothed >Krishnamurti, bought large amounts of real estate for the Society, etc. >"Humanity" in the shape of the great mass of working people hardly got a >look in. > >Oh well. > >Alan Alan, you are touching on a sensitive and tricky subject here as I am sure you are aware of Maslow's famous Hierarchy of Needs. Although considered a theory, it does seem to work well with society. If true, then only the "upper-crust" will ever pursue theosophy because only the upper classes (who have their lower needs already met) will ever have time. Maslow did a lot of research and discovered that Peak Experiences and Self-Actualization pursuits such as Theosophy will only occur to those in the highest level of his hierarchy of needs which is only a few percent of the population. This brings up the infamous question of just how do we go about bringing the "masses" into the theosophical fold? According to modern psychology, we never will. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:33:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1269 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971007203328.00c57bc0@mail.eden.com> At 12:20 PM 10/7/97 -0400, you wrote: > >> 12) Buddhism in USA >> by ramadoss@eden.com >Thanks for the reference...doss. Something to look forward to reading. I'm >just home from emergency kidney surgery and feeling kinda fragile >physically, but have to tell you that spiritually I was real strong. The >surgeon is this tall, gentle guy with an Indian name I can't pronounce and I >liked the feel of him the moment I saw him. I was interested to see what >would happen during anaesthetic, but it was just a blackness from out to >back in. My dad died in PA at the same time as I was in surgery. Lots to >think about. Still reading. Take care you lot. Annette. > Sorry to hear about your kidney surgery and that of passing of your dad both coming at the same time. All my thoughts for your quick recovery and also to help you get over the missing of your dad. From my personal experience, I can tell that only time will help. BTW, if he name of the surgeon is very difficult to pronounce, it is more likely he is from South India. Next time when you see him you can ask him. If he is from the South India, you may want to tell him that the International HQ of TS is in Madras. Take care and keep us posted of your recovery. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:03:52 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710072103.OAA26438@palrel1.hp.com> "A. Safron" wrote: > The only way I've ever read about to avoid being abducted is to set up a > video camera in your bedroom and keep it running all night. They don't want > to be seen or recorded. That could present other problems. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:15:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <971007191318_1799747253@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-07 15:51:41 EDT, you write: >Hmmm. . .so the psionic people have figured out how to further utilize and >extend "pure anger and hatred." How. . .honorable. > Honor, like ethics, has no place in any endeavor involving human intelligence. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:51:51 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: In message <199710072018.QAA23217@NetGSI.com>, Jerry Schueler writes >Maslow's famous Hierarchy of Needs. Although >considered a theory, it does seem to work well with society. If true, >then only the "upper-crust" will ever pursue theosophy because >only the upper classes (who have their lower needs already met) will >ever have time. Maybe. I did the greatest part of my own intensive study when I "dropped out" for two years around 1958-60, but this set the groundwork for later extensive teaching and study, all of which I was thus enabled to pursue in my "spare" time - like no TV, radio, newspapers, etc. .... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:18:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <971007191500_-826500171@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-07 16:20:26 EDT, you write: >This brings up the >infamous question of just how do we go about bringing the "masses" >into the theosophical fold? According to modern psychology, we never >will. > >Jerry S. And why the hell would we want them anyway? Let them inhabit their sports stadiums, rock concerts and bowling alleys. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:22:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <971007192047_201611448@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-07 17:05:18 EDT, you write: >> The only way I've ever read about to avoid being abducted is to set up a >> video camera in your bedroom and keep it running all night. They don't >want >> to be seen or recorded. > >That could present other problems. > Only if the wrong people see the tape. (giggle giggle) Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:42:11 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1269 Message-ID: In message <01bcd33c$e69eda40$45865ad1@libidium>, libidia writes >My dad died in PA at the same time as I was in surgery. Lots to >think about. Still reading. Take care you lot. Annette. You take care too - you have clearly has a rough time which will take a while to sort out. Take things easy ... With every good wish, Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:39:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Why did the chicken cross the road? Message-ID: In message <199710071243.IAA02611@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >> Why did the chicken cross the road? Theosophy - to fulfill its dharma. Its karma required that it do so in order to rectify the error of crossing it the wrong way in a previous life. In order to avoid being recognised as a master travelling incognito. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:09:26 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710080010.UAA21166@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 11:56 PM > > In the late 1940's Whilhelm Reich used his cloud buster to disable three > ufos. If they are as telepathic as they claim to be they are extremely > vulnerable to psionics and there are reports of potential abductees saving > themselves by sending concentrated thoughts of pure hate at them. > It is a possibility that a race of beings who have no communication ability except telepathy would be vulnerable - I agree. I'd never heard this one before, although I'd read stories about abductees escaping and being chased around spaceships till they got caught. >From my research I've read that the aliens use a sort of hypnosis or thought power on those they experiment on to try to calm them down. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:31:59 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <199710080039.UAA01260@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Jerry Schueler > Subject: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? > Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 3:19 PM > > Alan, you are touching on a sensitive and tricky subject here as I > am sure you are aware of Maslow's famous Hierarchy of Needs. Although > considered a theory, it does seem to work well with society. If true, > then only the "upper-crust" will ever pursue theosophy because > only the upper classes (who have their lower needs already met) will > ever have time. Maslow did a lot of research and discovered that > Peak Experiences and Self-Actualization pursuits such as Theosophy > will only occur to those in the highest level of his hierarchy of needs > which is only a few percent of the population. This brings up the > infamous question of just how do we go about bringing the "masses" > into the theosophical fold? According to modern psychology, we never > will. > I've had some peak experiences and hardly qualify as the upper crust. Others who have lived at the poverty line have probably even better experiences - think of monks and nuns. Do we have drive a Maserati, live in a mansion with twenty servants and wear tuxes to dinner to attain self-actualization? I doubt it. We'd be having too good of time to care about anything else but our own fat butts. My own husband regularly astral projects to escape the pressures of his job. As for the masses being brought into the theosophical fold, I predict that if the organization shows the attitude and service that it does now, not only will it never see a tiny portion of the masses, but TS will slowly sink into the sunset. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:23:11 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? Message-ID: <199710080039.UAA01245@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Why did the chicken cross the road? > Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 6:33 PM > > In message <199710071243.IAA02611@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" > writes > >> Why did the chicken cross the road? > > Theosophy - to fulfill its dharma. > > Its karma required that it do so in order to rectify the error > of crossing it the wrong way in a previous life. > > In order to avoid being recognised as a master travelling > incognito. My husband got a big hoot out of this. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:33:00 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710080039.UAA01273@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Titus Roth > Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens > Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 4:04 PM > > "A. Safron" wrote: > > > The only way I've ever read about to avoid being abducted is to set up a > > video camera in your bedroom and keep it running all night. They don't want > > to be seen or recorded. > > That could present other problems. Thanks for the idea. I may use it sometime in my fiction. :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:37:48 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <199710080039.UAA01308@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? > Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 6:20 PM > > In a message dated 97-10-07 16:20:26 EDT, you write: > > >This brings up the > >infamous question of just how do we go about bringing the "masses" > >into the theosophical fold? According to modern psychology, we never > >will. > > > >Jerry S. > > And why the hell would we want them anyway? Let them inhabit their sports > stadiums, rock concerts and bowling alleys. Hell, let them have a good time. Why should have more bored and boring Theosophists running around the planet? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:36:02 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710080039.UAA01296@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens > Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 6:24 PM > > In a message dated 97-10-07 17:05:18 EDT, you write: > > >> The only way I've ever read about to avoid being abducted is to set up a > >> video camera in your bedroom and keep it running all night. They don't > >want > >> to be seen or recorded. > > > >That could present other problems. > > > > > > Only if the wrong people see the tape. You'll never see mine. A Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:34:49 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Those Elitist Gnostics Message-ID: <199710080039.UAA01285@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Jerry Schueler > Subject: Those Elitist Gnostics > Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 3:19 PM > > >I have no connection with gnostic church whatsoever at this time. > > > >A. Safron > > Nor do I. > > Jerry S. :-))))) Good for us!!! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 22:42:49 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <343AF329.4859@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Bart Lidofsky > > Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens > > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 8:12 PM > > > > > Is there a lot of racism in New York? > > > > Compared to what? > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > I hear there's a lot more tolerance in San Francisco, while Chicago is > one of the racist cities in the country. I've never heard anything about > New York, so I thought I'd ask you. New York is a city of neighborhoods. Some are very friendly, some are highly racist (in many directions). For example, in Harlem, a business was burned down solely because it was owned by whites, and recently, a black man was beaten because he wandered into a lower-echelon Mafia neighborhood. There are a number of people in New York City who, unfortunately, owe their livings to racism, and will do everything in their power to keep it going. Lawyers Vernon Mason and Alton Maddox (the former has been disbarred, I believe), have traded heavily on it. There was a case of a man who had a model's face slashed; M&M defended the people who did the actual slashing, who happened to be black. The defense? The model deserved to have her face slashed, because she was a racist. Joined with the self-styled "Reverend" Al Sharpton, they created a scandal with one Tawana Brawley, who, one night after partying without her parent's permission, took off her clothes, smeared herself with dog excrement and covered herself with a sheet bearing the word, "nigger". She claimed that a gang of whites had done it. Mason, Maddox, and Sharpton were her "advisors", telling her not to cooperate in any way, shape, or form with the police. Among their antics was, when her mother was subpoenaed to testify in the investigation, they had her stay in a church, claiming "sanctuary". At one point, they accused the Attorney General of New York State of being a participant in the original "attack". Since then, Al Sharpton has been a fixture in New York City politics. Whenever a jury verdict in a black/white case does not go his way, he holds a "no justice, no peace" rally, usually involving blocking workers from going home during rush hour (including not letting people into the subway station). He has a coterie of unemployed followers who will wreak havoc on his command. He has run for public office several times, always getting about 125,000 votes. In the latest Democratic Primary for mayor, there was so little interest in the election that he almost succeeded in forcing a runoff (there was quite a bit of publicity when the initial count called for a runoff, then, a week later, it turned out that when a more careful count including paper ballots was made, the other candidate, Ruth Messinger, got the nomination after all. Al Sharpton calls any white person who disagrees with anything he says a "racist", and any black person who disagrees an "Uncle Tom". Since many black politicians are supporting Rudy Guliani for mayor, there are a lot of "Tom's" around these days. A few years back, there was a major racial problem, in an area called Crown Heights in Brooklyn. The leader of the Lubavitcher Hasidim (a remarkably Theosophical gentleman, by the way) was in a motorcade after visiting the grave of his late wife. One car was lagging behind when the light turned red. It ran the red light, was cut off by another car, swerved, and ran into the sidewalk, hitting and killing a black child. A crowd formed. A Hasidic ambulance service came, and was told by the cops to take the driver of the car, as the mob was about to kill him. This further incensed the community, who was told that the ambulance took the driver rather than the child because he was a Jew. The rabble rousers (which did NOT, for once, include Al Sharpton) spread the word that the driver ran down the black child on purpose, and there were gangs who gathered that night, with the chant, "kill the Jews". One unfortunate Australian graduate student was out, and was killed by a mob. There were riots over the next few days, and many police officers claim they were under specific orders to not act against the rioters, which is why many Jews called the riots a "pogrom" (a Russian word for a government sanctioned anti-Jewish riot). It was probably a major factor in Guliani's victory over David Dinkins for mayor (David Dinkins previously had reasonably strong support in New York's large Jewish community). Epilogue: The driver was found not guilty of criminal actions in the case, and moved to Israel, ostensibly to avoid retaliation by the black community. Many in the black community feel that he should be charged criminally, but New York State requires that a driver be breaking 3 traffic laws to be charged criminally; there is still a belief that he ran down the child on purpose, however. Also note that, while he is in Israel, the family cannot sue him. It is my personal belief that the driver, or the Lubavticher community should voluntarily pay the civil damages to the family of the child, but that's just me. One person was identified and arrested for the murder of the graduate student, but, because it could not be determined if the stab wound he made with his knife was the fatal blow, he was found not guilty (it is rumored in the Jewish community that the prosecution threw the trial on purpose). After much lobbying by the Jewish community, Janet Reno filed civil rights charges against the stabber (a move with which I disagree; smacks too much of thought crime). As far as I know, it has not yet come to trial. On the bright side, in the aftermath a lot of groups formed to promote racial harmony in New York City, with heavy participation by several branches of the Hasidic Jewish community. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 21:49:21 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: "see below" Message-ID: <343AE6A1.1765@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > > To Bart Lidofsky: > > "I was using iconical garbage, not actual garbage. Iconical garbage is, > by definition, worthless (just as iconical diamonds are, by definition, > valuable, even if one does not happen to have any use for diamonds > personally)." > > Iconical garbage = worthless > Iconical diamonds = valuable (but not for personal use)! No: Iconical garbage = worthless. Iconical diamonds = valuable. Real garbage = value depends on the garbage and the person. Real diamonds = value depends on the person. > Is this correct? If yes - could I please have an exact definition of the > two expressions "worthless" and "valuable"? Worthless = a person has no motivation to keep it. Valuable = a person had high motivation to keep it. Realistically speaking, Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 00:28:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <971007232655_1343612837@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-07 20:41:07 EDT, you write: >Hell, let them have a good time. Why should have more bored and boring >Theosophists running around the planet? > >A. Safron Actually, I find theosophists to be extremely interesting when they aren't driving me nuts. And the truth is that theosophy is a an intellectual endeavor that will never appeal to the masses and there is no reason why it should. Of course being in my cynical nihilist mode right now it lacks a certain appeal for me as well, but that will pass. If only Theosophists would blow something up occasionally! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 00:35:04 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971008053504.00dda334@mail.eden.com> At 04:19 PM 10/7/97 -0400, Jerry Schueler wrote: >>Hardly a fault or a virtue; I was subtly [failed] attempting to bring >>attention the the fact that the earlier Theosophists, who were >>relatively few per head of population, were mostly of the class who >>could *afford* to play croquet - very much an "upper-crust" pusuit in >>those days, not to mention the time involved. It was these people (such >>as the famous Miss Dodge) who poured funds into the TS, fed and clothed >>Krishnamurti, bought large amounts of real estate for the Society, etc. >>"Humanity" in the shape of the great mass of working people hardly got a >>look in. >> >>Oh well. >> >>Alan > >Alan, you are touching on a sensitive and tricky subject here as I >am sure you are aware of Maslow's famous Hierarchy of Needs. Although >considered a theory, it does seem to work well with society. If true, >then only the "upper-crust" will ever pursue theosophy because >only the upper classes (who have their lower needs already met) will >ever have time. Maslow did a lot of research and discovered that >Peak Experiences and Self-Actualization pursuits such as Theosophy >will only occur to those in the highest level of his hierarchy of needs >which is only a few percent of the population. This brings up the >infamous question of just how do we go about bringing the "masses" >into the theosophical fold? According to modern psychology, we never >will. > >Jerry S. I think the issue of Theosophy and the masses is a very timely and appropriate one. It was the same argument and question that APS addressed to the Mahatmas and was fully responded to in the famous letter of Maha Chohan which every leader starting from HPB had considered to be the charter of the TS. Of course there are a lot of theosophical doctrines/theories which a humble average man or woman on the street will find it very demanding mentally to understand. On the other hand there is the most important object of the TS -- brotherhood/sisterhood/siblinghood and its application in daily life and helping our fellow humans. The latter is highly practical and does not require any great IQ, education or other mental abilities. In the early days of TS, Olcott started the first school for the untouchables in Madras and worked hard to revive Buddhism and the network of natively supported schools in Ceylon. Later when Annie Besant went to India, she was immersed in multitudes of projects directly affecting the common man and woman and even today the institutions which she was instrumental in starting are standing testimony of how Theosophy can be applied. Very rarely one finds any one of the theosophical scholars (who may have high achievements in having passed all sorts of examinations at higher educational institutions) exploring the most fundamental question of how do we use Theosophy to affect and improve the lives of human beings. It looks like there is more emphasis in the personal growth (and pursing the real or imagined "occult" progress towards initiations and adeptship -- of course when one becomes an initiate or adept one can brag about it to all our fellow beings how far one has advanced). Such lack of focus on the practical help to our fellow humans may be the root cause of the lackluster response from the public to theosophy these days. It also may be recalled that when London Lodge members complained to the Adepts about the lack of progress, one of the Adepts commented that when everyone was pursuing selfish ends, what else one should expect. It looks like until and unless there is clear recognition and positive organized efforts to connect to rest of the humanity, it is very likely we may see all the theosophical organizations shut down during our life time, with a lot of valuable property in the hands of a few who can and may have a very good time. At least one organization (TSA) has already got a legal framework setup for this eventuality. Just my 2 cents worth. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:57:18 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <199710080557.XAA02206@mailmx.micron.net> Chuck wrote: > And the truth is that theosophy is a an intellectual >endeavor that will never appeal to the masses and there is no reason why it >should. Oh, please. Theosophy is not an "intellectual endeavor" - it's more a philosophy/method of living. There are many people who would be considered stupid by "intellectuals," but know more about what being a theosophist really means than these same intellectuals could even begin to comprehend. I'd rather sup with a wino than Algeo any day. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:31:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <971008023113_-792578930@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-08 01:59:33 EDT, you write: >I'd never heard this one before, although I'd read stories about >abductees escaping and being chased around spaceships till they >got caught. > The image of that is priceless, right out of Bugs Bunny and the Martian! >>From my research I've read that the aliens use a sort of hypnosis or thought >power on >those they experiment on to try to calm them down. > >A. Safron That last would be expected. As in all strategy, the point is to find the weak point and exploit it. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:34:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? Message-ID: <971008023417_1148053870@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-08 02:15:33 EDT, you write: > In order to avoid being recognised as a master travelling >incognito. > >Alan Oh! That was why the chicken was wearing sunglasses. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 07:36:01 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971008123601.01252930@mail.eden.com> At 01:57 AM 10/8/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Chuck wrote: > >> And the truth is that theosophy is a an intellectual >>endeavor that will never appeal to the masses and there is no reason why it >>should. > >Oh, please. Theosophy is not an "intellectual endeavor" - it's more a >philosophy/method of living. There are many people who would be considered >stupid by "intellectuals," but know more about what being a theosophist >really means than these same intellectuals could even begin to comprehend. > >I'd rather sup with a wino than Algeo any day. > >Kym > You are right on the money. It was never ever intended to be an "intellectual endeavor" It appears to have become one and that is why the membership is so pitfully small and is declining with no light at the end of the tunnel for better days to come. I hope more of see it the way you and I are seeing it, that is where the hope of the future is. ....MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:36:48 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <199710081250.IAA26090@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? > Date: Tuesday, October 07, 1997 11:29 PM > > Actually, I find theosophists to be extremely interesting when they aren't > driving me nuts. And the truth is that theosophy is a an intellectual > endeavor that will never appeal to the masses and there is no reason why it > should. > > Of course being in my cynical nihilist mode right now it lacks a certain > appeal for me as well, but that will pass. > > If only Theosophists would blow something up occasionally! > I agree. There may always be a group on intellectuals sitting around and sipping tea - but not a great crowd of them. Maybe TS is the place for them. As for blowing up something - maybe they could try some balloons. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:49:23 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <199710081250.IAA26097@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 12:38 AM > > It was the same argument and question that APS addressed to the Mahatmas and > was fully responded to in the famous letter of Maha Chohan which every > leader starting from HPB had considered to be the charter of the TS. > > Of course there are a lot of theosophical doctrines/theories which a humble > average man or woman on the street will find it very demanding mentally to > understand. Most people are also highly stretched for time these days. Moms work because they have to pay their share of the mortgage, kid trot off to day car, down-sizing in companies makes the employees work twice as hard. It is no wonder the most of the members of TSA are members-at-large. All they have time for is to read the magazine on the train or go to an occasional lecture. The on-line discussion group, NL-l and ts-l was supposed to provide a gap for this, but since I dropped out of both I can't vouch for their success. > (and pursing the real or > imagined "occult" progress towards initiations and adeptship -- of course > when one becomes an initiate or adept one can brag about it to all our > fellow beings how far one has advanced). Such lack of focus on the practical > help to our fellow humans may be the root cause of the lackluster response > from the public to theosophy these days. Why should anyone bellieve them that they are barely an initiate or adept. I say it takes one to know one. > > It also may be recalled that when London Lodge members complained to the > Adepts about the lack of progress, one of the Adepts commented that when > everyone was pursuing selfish ends, what else one should expect. > > It looks like until and unless there is clear recognition and positive > organized efforts to connect to rest of the humanity, it is very likely we > may see all the theosophical organizations shut down during our life time, > with a lot of valuable property in the hands of a few who can and may have a > very good time. At least one organization (TSA) has already got a legal > framework setup for this eventuality. > A legal framwowrk? In what way? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:36:55 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1270 Message-ID: To Annette: Out of heart I wish you all the very best for you. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:57:36 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1270 Message-ID: To Keith: "Not to get to far afield, but Zechiraih Sitchen has gained notice by extending > the CHAIROT OF THE GODS theory to Absynnian scrolls who only he (it >seems) can > read accurately. He concludes that we are a laboratory - a petrie dish of > humanity - growing like a culture of bacteria for advanced beings who return > every millenium or so to check how we are evolvoing. The Masters might be > their secret agents. Oh, how the romantic imagination can spin ....! :) >They > may be alien to us if they are operating on the buddhic and atmic levels >which > could be dimensions enfolded withour current 3(or 4) dimensional perception." When I read this, it makes my stomach feel sick. Why does it seem its only he that can read it accurately? Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:34:43 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1272 Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: Re Masters as Aliens - I read what you wrote about the situation in New York - to me this seems to be terryfingly ressembling to that what one finds if one logs in at the network with the word "stormfront". I am sometimes "watching" there, what's going on. To me it's worse than bullshit (sorry for the word), but what they are trying to realize. My psychological definition for such behaviour is called "mothersons" (not ment to value men or women and there are also "motherdaughters") but just used as topicword psychology uses to describe an unnatural development which seems to be more common these days than the originally natural one. But why should human beeings develop naturally as long as its unnatural one brings so much money? And least but not last, various churches do lots of things to keep everything that way it has been kept, I don't know since when. Realistically enough? To Chuck: "... would blow something up occasionally!" In case it is possible to "blow" "something" also for common people could you please give samples for "something" and where to "blow" it to? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:22:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <971008132050_794135532@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-08 03:27:35 EDT, you write: >You'll never see mine. > >A Safron > Really, I can let you see mine. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 13:40:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971008184008.00723340@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting quotation: "Talk as much philosphy as you please, worship as many gods as you like, observe all ceremonies, sing devoted praises to any number of divine beings - liberation never comes, even at the end of a hundred aeons, without the realization of the Oneness of Self." Shankara PS: Shankaracharya is considered as one of those who reformed Hinduism and is a great Adept according to HPB and others. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 13:40:09 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971008184009.00725f74@mail.eden.com> At 08:51 AM 10/8/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? >> Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 12:38 AM >> >> >> It was the same argument and question that APS addressed to the Mahatmas and >> was fully responded to in the famous letter of Maha Chohan which every >> leader starting from HPB had considered to be the charter of the TS. >> >> Of course there are a lot of theosophical doctrines/theories which a humble >> average man or woman on the street will find it very demanding mentally to >> understand. > >Most people are also highly stretched for time these days. Moms work because >they have to pay their share of the mortgage, kid trot off to day car, down-sizing in >companies makes the employees work twice as hard. It is no wonder the most >of the members of TSA are members-at-large. All they have time for is to read >the magazine on the train or go to an occasional lecture. > The on-line discussion group, NL-l and ts-l was supposed to provide a gap for >this, but since I dropped out of both I can't vouch for their success. >> > (and pursing the real or >> imagined "occult" progress towards initiations and adeptship -- of course >> when one becomes an initiate or adept one can brag about it to all our >> fellow beings how far one has advanced). Such lack of focus on the practical >> help to our fellow humans may be the root cause of the lackluster response >> from the public to theosophy these days. > >Why should anyone bellieve them that they are barely an initiate or adept. I say it >takes one to know one. > >> >> It also may be recalled that when London Lodge members complained to the >> Adepts about the lack of progress, one of the Adepts commented that when >> everyone was pursuing selfish ends, what else one should expect. >> >> It looks like until and unless there is clear recognition and positive >> organized efforts to connect to rest of the humanity, it is very likely we >> may see all the theosophical organizations shut down during our life time, >> with a lot of valuable property in the hands of a few who can and may have a >> very good time. At least one organization (TSA) has already got a legal >> framework setup for this eventuality. >> >A legal framwowrk? In what way? > >A. Safron > With the recent changes in TSA bylaws, it can be shutdown and all the assets get transferred to TIT and once it is inside TIT, the Trustees can do almost anything with the assets and get away with it. The Trustees are not answerable to any one and need not disclose any information on anything they do or how the money is spent. There is the classic example of Krishnamurti Trusts where even Krishnamurti when he was alive could not find out anything about the finances until finally a law suit had to be inititated by the new trusts and California Attorney General. Not a very pretty sight and the Trustees included some who belonged to TSA. BTW, Rajagopal the key trustee was travelling in First Class Air Travel with Trust funds. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 11:31:30 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Theosophy an Intellectual Endeavor? Message-ID: <199710081830.LAA23700@scv1.apple.com> >It was never ever intended to be an "intellectual endeavor" This is a hard statement for me to understand given Blavatsky's allusion-heavy style and her constant attempts to deal with contemporary philosophical and scientific issues. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 12:36:26 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: web page update: Into to Crowley Studies Message-ID: <199710081935.MAA05476@scv1.apple.com> A new Introduction to Crowley Studies is now available at www.maroney.org. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:26:56 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <343BEC90.8@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > I'd rather sup with a wino than Algeo any day. I've had supper with both. Algeo wins by a long shot. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:47:51 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <343BF177.7141@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > It looks like until and unless there is clear recognition and positive > > organized efforts to connect to rest of the humanity, it is very likely we > > may see all the theosophical organizations shut down during our life time, > > with a lot of valuable property in the hands of a few who can and may have a > > very good time. At least one organization (TSA) has already got a legal > > framework setup for this eventuality. > > > A legal framwowrk? In what way? There is a foundation set up to control the property of the TSA and the various Lodges if the membership can no longer do so. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:56:46 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1272 Message-ID: <343BF38E.37A5@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > > To Bart Lidofsky: Re Masters as Aliens - I read what you wrote > about the situation in New York - to me this seems to be terryfingly > ressembling to that what one finds if one logs in at the network > with the word "stormfront". I am sometimes "watching" there, > what's going on. To me it's worse than bullshit (sorry for the word), > but what they are trying to realize. My psychological definition for > such behaviour is called "mothersons" (not ment to value men or > women and there are also "motherdaughters") but just used as topicword > psychology uses to describe an unnatural development which seems > to be more common these days than the originally natural one. But > why should human beeings develop naturally as long as its unnatural > one brings so much money? And least but not last, various churches > do lots of things to keep everything that way it has been kept, I don't > know since when. Realistically enough? I have just read your statement the 4th time. I can't figure out what you're talking about!!!! :( Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:58:42 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theosophy Message-ID: <343BF402.3EBB@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Here is an interesting quotation: > > "Talk as much philosphy as you please, worship as many gods > as you like, observe all ceremonies, sing devoted praises > to any number of divine beings - liberation never comes, > even at the end of a hundred aeons, without the > realization of the Oneness of Self." What makes you think that the purpose of the Theosophical Society has anything to do with spiritual advancement of any of the individual members? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:13:17 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Theosophy an Intellectual Endeavor? Message-ID: <199710082113.PAA19237@mailmx.micron.net> Tim wrote: >>[Doss] It was never ever intended to be an "intellectual endeavor" > >This is a hard statement for me to understand given Blavatsky's >allusion-heavy style and her constant attempts to deal with contemporary >philosophical and scientific issues. I guess I don't consider Blavatsky to BE theosophy. Theosophy was around long before she ever heard of it - perhaps she felt she would serve theosophy best by approaching it in her "allusion-heavy style." But, again, theosophy is not one person, nor the opinions of that one person. One can be a theosophist and never pick up a pen or engage in "intellectual endeavors". . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:20:13 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <199710082120.PAA20804@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: >kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >> I'd rather sup with a wino than Algeo any day. > > I've had supper with both. Algeo wins by a long shot. And the REASONS why Algeo "wins?" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 17:58:30 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theosophy an Intellectual Endeavor? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971008225830.006ab64c@mail.eden.com> At 03:12 PM 10/8/97 -0400, Tim Maroney wrote: >>It was never ever intended to be an "intellectual endeavor" > >This is a hard statement for me to understand given Blavatsky's >allusion-heavy style and her constant attempts to deal with contemporary >philosophical and scientific issues. > A P Sinnett seems to have had questions on the same lines as well as several related ones. At any rate, KH, one of her bosses in the TS endeavor, discussed TS with His boss and there is a long letter which summarizes the discussion that took place. I think it is timely that I should post as soon as I am able to locate it. .....MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 17:58:29 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971008225829.006afa98@mail.eden.com> At 05:00 PM 10/8/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> Here is an interesting quotation: >> >> >> "Talk as much philosphy as you please, worship as many gods >> as you like, observe all ceremonies, sing devoted praises >> to any number of divine beings - liberation never comes, >> even at the end of a hundred aeons, without the >> realization of the Oneness of Self." > > What makes you think that the purpose of the Theosophical Society has >anything to do with spiritual advancement of any of the individual >members? > > Bart Lidofsky > The quote is what Shankara said. Nothing is mentioned about Theosophical Society, which did not exist at the time He was alive. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:00:47 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710090011.UAA12219@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 12:24 PM > > In a message dated 97-10-08 03:27:35 EDT, you write: > > >You'll never see mine. > > > >A Safron > > > > > > Really, I can let you see mine. > > Chuck the Heretic Are you in your leathers? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:10:39 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Racism Message-ID: <199710090011.UAA12225@cliff.concentric.net> In reply to your post about racism in New York, I won't repeat it: Not long ago a young boy was beaten into a coma by a couple of white youths. Luckily, he survived and is in rehabilitation. They are in jail. Just today several white policemen beat a lone black policeman, who was trying to help them. They screamed, "You are not one of us." This stuff goes on all the time in CHicago, but mostly black and white. The Jewish community is living far north where no one ever touches them except an occasional march by the Klu Klux Klan. Chicago and its surrounding suburbs are a strange patchwork of races and ethnic groups. Ever changing and shifting. One neighborhood going downhill and then suddenly 10 years later its on the upswing. All it takes it money. A. SAfron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:16:54 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <199710090023.UAA16220@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 3:29 PM > > kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > I'd rather sup with a wino than Algeo any day. > > I've had supper with both. Algeo wins by a long shot. > > Bart Lidofsky Personally, I'd rather dinner with Tom Cruise. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:14:23 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <199710090023.UAA16209@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 3:50 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > > It looks like until and unless there is clear recognition and positive > > > organized efforts to connect to rest of the humanity, it is very likely we > > > may see all the theosophical organizations shut down during our life time, > > > with a lot of valuable property in the hands of a few who can and may have a > > > very good time. At least one organization (TSA) has already got a legal > > > framework setup for this eventuality. > > > > > A legal framwowrk? In what way? > > There is a foundation set up to control the property of the TSA and the > various Lodges if the membership can no longer do so. As the church lady once said, "How convenient!" Well, it's not any of my trouble because I'm not going to be member much longer. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:57:11 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theosophy Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19971008184008.00723340@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >Here is an interesting quotation: > >"Talk as much philosphy as you please, worship as many gods >as you like, observe all ceremonies, sing devoted praises >to any number of divine beings - liberation never comes, >even at the end of a hundred aeons, without the >realization of the Oneness of Self." > > Shankara > >PS: Shankaracharya is considered as one of those who reformed Hinduism and >is a great Adept according to HPB and others. > His school survives and still says the same thing! It is perhaps the same thing as the Unity of Being; i.e., we are all connected with and part of the One Life. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:49:02 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: In message <199710080557.XAA02206@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >There are many people who would be considered >stupid by "intellectuals," but know more about what being a theosophist >really means than these same intellectuals could even begin to comprehend. > >I'd rather sup with a wino than Algeo any day. There are probably more true "theosophists" out there than belong to any of the Theosophical Societies. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:46:05 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Hasidim Message-ID: In message <343AF329.4859@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > On the bright side, in the aftermath a lot of groups formed to promote >racial harmony in New York City, with heavy participation by several >branches of the Hasidic Jewish community. Shalom to them! I have a lot of time for the Hasidim, even though they are not my personal cup esoterically speaking. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:16:34 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <343C3E82.1CA0@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Bart wrote: > > >kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > >> I'd rather sup with a wino than Algeo any day. > > > > I've had supper with both. Algeo wins by a long shot. > > And the REASONS why Algeo "wins?" Wino's have a disgusting smell about them, are frequently incoherent, and have terrible table manners. John Algeo is impeccably clean, is a scintillating conversationalist, and has wonderful table manners. Have you ever had dinner with either? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:50:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Why did the chicken cross the road? Message-ID: In message <971008023417_1148053870@emout17.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-10-08 02:15:33 EDT, you write: > >> In order to avoid being recognised as a master travelling >>incognito. >> >>Alan > >Oh! That was why the chicken was wearing sunglasses. > >Chuck the Heretic That was the other chicken crossing the other way - please watch more carefully in future. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:26:58 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Racism Message-ID: <343C40F2.64E0@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > Chicago and its surrounding suburbs are a strange > patchwork of races and ethnic groups. Ever changing and > shifting. One neighborhood going downhill and then suddenly > 10 years later its on the upswing. All it takes it money. There are a number of upper-middle class minority communities in New York City where, if you are not bigoted, you can buy a nice home with good neighbors at a bargain rate. My wife and I once considered moving into a West Indian neighborhood where she was attending church at the time (I used to show up after services for coffee; I liked them far better than the people at our neighborhood church, where I was treated very coldly as a non-Christian). We didn't because of financial, not racial reasons. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:27:42 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? Message-ID: <343C411E.134A@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Bart Lidofsky > > Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? > > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 3:29 PM > > > > kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > > I'd rather sup with a wino than Algeo any day. > > > > I've had supper with both. Algeo wins by a long shot. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Personally, I'd rather dinner with Tom Cruise. Is Tom Cruise a wino, or a relative of the Algeo's? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 23:52:55 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Not that you should care..."Promise Keepers" or Power Takers? Message-ID: Merilyn Tunneshende, Angela Browne-Miller, Robert Standing Bear will present their powerful work at the Prophets Conference taking place this coming weekend, October 10-12 in Phoenix. Don't miss this momentous event with today's leading messengers of coming change. MERILYN TUNNESHENDE - In 1979, having just graduated from college, Merilyn Tunneshende began a seventeen year apprenticeship in the Yuman desert to the Nagual John Black Crow, or don Juan Matus as he is sometimes called. Shortly afterwards, she also entered into an apprenticeship with the Mayan dreamer, seer, healer and day keeper Chon Yakil, or don Genaro Flores, which still continues to this day. During the course of her work in languages, comparative religion and philosophy, Ms. Tunneshende received a Masters degree and was awarded a grant from the national Endowment for the Humanities to continue doctoral research on the Maya. She now works as an author, speaker, educator, seminar presenter and practitioner of ancient Nagualist shamanism. In addition to these efforts, she has also undertaken training in the energetic healing arts, under Master Dreamer and practitioner Chon Yakil, with the special area of emphasis being HIV and other extremely difficult conditions, and has begun dialoguing with the medical community. Her book Medicine Dream has been hailed as the beginning of a new era of empowered feminine energy work, in keeping with the prophecies of the Mayan Tzolkin calendar. Ms. Tunneshende has appeared on television and is often a featured author in Magical Blend magazine. She is a contributor to their new book of original essays Solstice Shift, A Synergistic Guide to the Coming Age, available in September, 1997. ANGELA BROWNE-MILLER - is a psychotherapist who works with people in transition, shock, abduction crisis, and others, spiritual scientist, seminar leader, and author whose most recent three books include the prophecy book, Omega Point, Bear & Co.'s Embracing Death, and Truthseeker Foundation's How to Die and Survive: The Interdimensional Travel Manual. She is an emissary of the light committee seven, descendant of Freeborn Triton lineage, founder of Metaterra at http://www.metaterra-link.com, and Earth branch director of Underground Rising, the age old on and off planet organization aimed at warding off intergalactic fascism. MATIR ASURIM - set the captives free. ROBERT STANDING BEAR - Bridge of the Nations - Elder wisdom, discusses the medicine of the Phoenix Fire Bird in a journey to wisdom through open heart unconditional love. The Earth changes are drawing everyone to the feminine energy necessary to heal the planet, and this is the work to which Standing Bear is committed. Keith: Sorry, if I quoted too much, but I was fascintated how the new age smorgasborg keeps increasing in quantity, if not quality. I will try to keep my points brief. Have you noticed that there really does seem to be a worship of the feminine in all this globalism, new world order for the new age stuff? Not that this is bad. The Promise Keepers want to recapture the past of male responisbility and control, one household at a time. The founder promises to make it an international movement! Not that that is bad either. Theosophy had its chance and has regressed into a warm fuzzy new age blur on the outside disguising a cult of the "Masters" and demands of impossible purity for those that get past the first few years of readings. Not that that is bad either. The point I am really trying to make is that the new age has become hopelessly fragmentized into chasing after every new millenialist guru and then selling it back to the people who are already convinced. Theosophy took up the noble challenge of synthesizing philosphy, science and religion. Some say a synthesis is like a pyramid that must have the base of the past to stand on. Is the pyramid of evolution of philosophy and religion crumbling under the need for science and technology on the one hand and fantasy in the grotesque extreme in our art, fashion and culture? Namasate Keith PRice From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 01:06:29 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Elite or Enlightened? RE: Maslow Message-ID: Alan, you are touching on a sensitive and tricky subject here as I > am sure you are aware of Maslow's famous Hierarchy of Needs. Although > considered a theory, it does seem to work well with society. If true, > then only the "upper-crust" will ever pursue theosophy because > only the upper classes (who have their lower needs already met) will > ever have time. Maslow did a lot of research and discovered that > Peak Experiences and Self-Actualization pursuits such as Theosophy > will only occur to those in the highest level of his hierarchy of needs > which is only a few percent of the population. This brings up the > infamous question of just how do we go about bringing the "masses" > into the theosophical fold? According to modern psychology, we never > will. > I've had some peak experiences and hardly qualify as the upper crust. Others who have lived at the poverty line have probably even better experiences - think of monks and nuns. Do we have drive a Maserati, live in a mansion with twenty servants and wear tuxes to dinner to attain self-actualization? I doubt it. We'd be having too good of time to care about anything else but our own fat butts. My own husband regularly astral projects to escape the pressures of his job. As for the masses being brought into the theosophical fold, I predict that if the organization shows the attitude and service that it does now, not only will it never see a tiny portion of the masses, but TS will slowly sink into the sunset. A. Safron Keith: Thanks A. Safron. I was just about to make the same point. The extremely rich get to be eccentric, the poor get to be crazy outcasts, but the teachings are open to all if they take the time to seek, no matter the cost. I fall in the latter category, as I am poor, but often put such things ahead of obligations, but that fall under karma and dharma, doesn't it? I should pay my bills, I have a duty, but I want to explore this because, I MUST! Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 23:56:09 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971009045609.00aabf10@mail.eden.com> At 10:19 PM 10/8/97 -0400, you wrote: >kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >> >> Bart wrote: >> >> >kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >> >> I'd rather sup with a wino than Algeo any day. >> > >> > I've had supper with both. Algeo wins by a long shot. >> >> And the REASONS why Algeo "wins?" > > Wino's have a disgusting smell about them, are frequently incoherent, >and have terrible table manners. John Algeo is impeccably clean, is a >scintillating conversationalist, and has wonderful table manners. > > Have you ever had dinner with either? > > Bart Lidofsky > Here is a story on table manners. Krishnaji used to invite his friends and others everyday to dine with him at lunch. One time when he was in Madras, a local Judge was invited for lunch. The Judge came up from surroundings whose table manners are considered as being bad by those of the elite upper class. So the person who was arranging the seating assigned a chair far away from the one where Krishnaji usually used to sit at the dining table. When Krishnaji arrived, he was quick to notice that the judge was deliberately was made to sit far away from Krishnaji's usual place and to the surprise and shock of everyone present, he went and sat next to the judge. It taught a lesson to everyone that Krishnaji, while knew table manners, he was not one who cared much. Judge was a guest and Krishnaji treated him as such in spite of the guest's lack of table manners. The above was told to me by an extremely reliable source close to Krishnaji. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 00:56:44 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Foundation Message-ID: <343C640C.356@gil.net> Bart, What is the Foundations name? From whom and how can the by-laws be obtained? Where is this foundation centered? Who are the officers, trustees and managment of this Theosophical "Foundation"? I and several more people I think would like to know. Please avoid a run around if you can. Don't mask you answers with legal cans and can'ts this time. Just reply to the simple questions, simply. I would be most appreciative, thank you in advance for your effort. Ken Malkin >Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:47:51 -0400 >From: Bart Lidofsky >Subject: Re: Theosophy for the Upper Crust or the Masses? >Message-ID: <343BF177.7141@sprynet.com> >A. Safron wrote: > > It looks like until and unless there is clear recognition and >positive > > organized efforts to connect to rest of the humanity, it is very >likely we > > may see all the theosophical organizations shut down during our life >time, > > with a lot of valuable property in the hands of a few who can and >may have a > > very good time. At least one organization (TSA) has already got a >legal > > framework setup for this eventuality. > > > A legal framwowrk? In what way? > There is a foundation set up to control the property of the TSA >and the various Lodges if the membership can no longer do so. > Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 03:15:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: web page update: Into to Crowley Studies Message-ID: <971009031551_1045058188@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-08 15:56:13 EDT, you write: >A new Introduction to Crowley Studies is now available at www.maroney.org. > >-- >Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org > Excellent. Do you have the material on the Wierda Conference where he was proclaimed the TRUE world teacher (as opposed to the boring Krishnamurti)? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 03:26:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Not that you should care..."Promise Keepers" or Power Takers? Message-ID: <971009032649_898161553@emout03.mail.aol.com> One of my least favorite people, Mao Tse Tung, wrote, "Power comes from the barrel of a gun." For those of you are interested, operational testing of the tepaphone (the psionic death ray mentioned in literature about 1920's German magickal orders and which was lost during the bombings of the second world war and which we may have rediscovered) begins tomorrow. The simplicity of both device and operation make it possible that everyone in the world will soon have access to a machine that can, for the first time since the invention of gunpowder, redress the balance of power between society and the individual, giving each one who possess the capacity to project power with the same effectiveness as a nation state. Stick around. Things are gonna get interesting! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 06:57:05 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: web page update: Into to Crowley Studies Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971009115705.012712b8@mail.eden.com> At 03:16 AM 10/9/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-10-08 15:56:13 EDT, you write: > >>A new Introduction to Crowley Studies is now available at www.maroney.org. >> >>-- >>Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org >> >> > >Excellent. Do you have the material on the Wierda Conference where he was >proclaimed the TRUE world teacher (as opposed to the boring Krishnamurti)? > >Chuck the Heretic > Very interesting. We find from time to time someone claiming to be a True World Teacher. So we have a number of claimants to the position. One who *did* not make such a claim was Krishnamurti himself. Of course Krishnamurti may be boring to some. But many find his lectures interesting and not boring. Different strokes for different people. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 07:26:36 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theosophy an Intellectual Endeavor? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971009122636.00caef28@mail.eden.com> We discussed the subject. I am reposting the letter which we all may want to consider as it represents the view of the bosses of HPB & HSO who chartered the TS. .....mkr ------------------------------------------------------------------ The following letter is considered by every Theosophical Leader from HPB onwards, as the charter for the Theosophical Society. At a time of declining membership, and at the same time unequaled opportunity that modern technological communication provides, it might be a good idea to ponder over what Chohan has to say. In one of the letter in ML to APS, there was a statement that whatever results we see are the results of our own actions and in the light of it, is it possible that the declining membership may be just the result of the direction that TS has taken all over the world. May be each one of us in our own way contribute what we can to further the cause of betterment of the conditions of Humanity. MKR ---------------------------------- View of the Chohan on the T. S. Several good reasons given to K.H. by the Chohan why the T.S. should be a Brotherhood of Humanity. The doctrine we promulgate being the only true one, must, -- supported by such evidence as we are preparing to give -- become ultimately triumphant as every other truth. Yet it is absolutely necessary to inculcate it, gradually enforcing its theories, unimpeachable facts for those who know, with direct inferences deducted from and corroborated by the evidence furnished by modern exact science. That is why Col H.S.O. who works but to revive Buddhism may be regarded as one who labours in the true path of Theosophy, far more than any other man who chooses as his goal the gratification of his own ardent aspirations for occult knowledge. Buddhism stripped of its superstitions is eternal truth, and he who strives for the latter is striving for Theos-sophia, Divine Wisdom, which is a synonym of truth. For our doctrines to practically react on the so called moral code or the ideas of truthfulness, purity, self-denial, charity, etc., we have to preach and popularise a knowledge of theosophy. It is not the individual and determined purpose of attaining oneself Nirvana (the culmination of all knowledge and absolute wisdom) which is, after all, only an exalted and glorious selfishness, but the self-sacrificing pursuit of the best means to lead on the right path our neighbour, to cause as many of our fellow creatures as we possibly can to benefit by it, which constitutes the true Theosophist. The intellectual portions of mankind seem to be fast dividing into two classes, the one unconsciously preparing for itself long periods of temporary annihilation or states of non-consciousness owing to the deliberate surrender of their intellect, its imprisonment in the narrow grooves of bigotry and superstition, a process which cannot fail to lead to the utter deformation of the intellectual principle; the other unrestrainedly indulging its animal propensities with the deliberate intention of submitting to annihilation pure and simple in cases of failure, to millenniums of degradation after physical dissolution. Those "intellectual classes," reacting upon the ignorant masses which they attract and which look up to them as noble and fit examples to follow, degrade and morally ruin those they ought to protect and guide. Between degrading superstition and still more degrading brutal materialism the white dove of truth has hardly room where to rest her weary unwelcome foot. . . . It's time that Theosophy should enter the arena. The sons of Theosophists are more likely to become in their turn Theosophists than anything else. No messenger of truth, no prophet has ever achieved during his life time a complete triumph, not even Buddha; the Theosophical Society was chosen as the corner stone, the foundation of the future religion of humanity. To achieve the proposed object a greater, wiser, and especially a more benevolent intermingling of the high and the low, of the alpha and the omega of society, was determined upon. The white race must be the first to stretch out the hand of fellowship to the dark nations, to call the poor despised "nigger" brothers. This prospect may not smile to all. He is no Theosophist who objects to this principle. . . . In view of the ever increasing triumph and at the same time misuse of free-thought and liberty (the Universal reign of Satan, Eliphas Levi would have called it), how is the combative natural instinct of man to be restrained from inflicting hitherto unheard of cruelties and enormities, tyranny, injustice, etc., if not through the soothing influence of a brotherhood and of the practical application of Buddha's esoteric doctrines. For as everyone knows, total emancipation from authority of the one all pervading power or law called God by the Theists -- Buddha, Divine Wisdom and Enlightenment or Theosophy by the philosophers of all ages -- means also the emancipation from that of human law. Once unfettered [and] delivered from their dead weight of dogmatic interpretations, personal names, anthropomorphic conceptions and salaried priests, the fundamental doctrines of all religions will be proved identical in their esoteric meaning. Osiris, Chrishna, Buddha, Christ, will be shown as different means for one and [the] same royal highway to final bliss, Nirvana. Mystical christianity, that is to say that christianity which teaches self redemption through one's own seventh principle -- the liberated Para-atma (Augoeides) called by the one Christ, by others Buddha, and equivalent to regeneration or rebirth in spirit -- will be found just the same truth as the Nirvana of mystical Buddhism. All of us have to get rid of our own Ego, the illusory apparent self, to recognise our true self in a transcendental divine life. But if we would not be selfish we must strive to make other people see that truth, to recognise the reality of that transcendental self, the Buddh, the Christ or God of every preacher. This is why even exoteric Buddhism is the surest path to lead men toward the one esoteric truth. As we find the world now, whether Christian, Mussalman or Pagan, justice is disregarded and honour and mercy both flung to the winds. In a word, how, once that the main objects of the T.S. are misinterpreted by those who are most willing to serve us personally, are we to deal with the rest of mankind, with that curse known as the "struggle for life," which is the real and most prolific parent of most woes and sorrows and of all the crimes? Why has that struggle become the almost universal scheme of the universe? We answer, because no religion with the exception of Buddhism has hitherto taught a practical contempt for this earthly life, while each of them, always with that one solitary exception, has through its hells and damnations inculcated the greatest dread of death. Therefore do we find that struggle for life raging most fiercely in Christian countries, most prevalent in Europe and America. It weakens in the Pagan lands and is nearly unknown among Buddhist populations. (In China during famine and where the masses are most ignorant of their own or any religion, it was remarked that those mothers who devoured their children belonged to localities where there were the most of Christian missionaries to be found. Where there were none and the Bonzes alone had the field the population died with the utmost indifference.) Teach the people to see that life on this earth even the happiest is but a burden and an illusion, that it is but our own Karma, the cause producing the effect, that is our own judge, our Saviour in future lives, and the great struggle for life will soon lose its intensity. There are no penitentiaries in Buddhist lands and crime is nearly unknown among the Buddhist Tibetans. (The above is not addressed to you, and has nought to do with the work of the Simla Eclectic Society. It is meant only as an answer to the erroneous impression in Mr. Hume's mind of the "Ceylon work" as no theosophy.) The world in general and Christendom especially, left for two thousand years to the regime of a personal God as well as its political and social systems based on that idea, has now proved a failure. If the Theosophists say, we have nothing to do with all this, the lower classes and the inferior races (those of India for instance in the conception of the British) cannot concern us and must manage as they can, what becomes of our fine professions of benevolence, philanthropy, reform, etc. Are these professions a mockery? And if a mockery, can ours be the true path? Shall we devote our selves to teaching a few Europeans fed on the fat of the land, many of them loaded with the gifts of blind fortune, the rationale of bell ringing, cup growing, of the spiritual telephone and astral body formation, and leave the teeming millions of the ignorant, of the poor and despised, the lowly and the oppressed, to take care of themselves and of their hereafter the best they know how. Never. Rather perish the Theosophical Society with both its hapless founders than that we should permit it to become no better than an academy of magic and a hall of occultism. That we, the devoted followers of that spirit incarnate of absolute self sacrifice, of philanthropy, divine kindness, as of all the highest virtues attainable on this earth of sorrow, the man of men, Gautama Buddha, should ever allow the Theosophical Society to represent the embodiment of selfishness, the refuge of the few with no thought in them for the many, is a strange idea, my brothers. Among the few glimpses obtained by Europeans of Tibet and its mystical hierarchy of "perfect lamas," there is one which was correctly understood and described. "The incarnations of the Boddisatwa Padma Pani or Avalo-Kiteswara and of Tsong Kapa, that of Amitabha, relinquish at their death the attainment of Buddhahood -- i.e. the summum bonum of bliss, and of individual personal felicity -- that they might be born again and again for the benefit of mankind." [Rhys Davids] In other words, that they might be again and again subjected to misery, imprisonment in flesh and all the sorrows of life, provided that by such a self sacrifice repeated throughout long and dreary centuries they might become the means of securing salvation and bliss in the hereafter for a handful of men chosen among but one of the many races of mankind. And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect lamas, who are expected to allow the T.S. to drop its noblest title, that of the Brotherhood of Humanity to become a simple school of psychology? No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent enough to grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a task too heavy for him. But there is hardly a theosophist in the whole society unable to effectually help it by correcting the erroneous impressions of the outsiders, if not by actually propagating himself the idea. Oh, for the noble and unselfish man to help us effectually in India in that divine task. All our knowledge past and present would not be sufficient to repay him. . . . Having explained our views and aspirations I have but a few words more to add. To be true, religion and philosophy must offer the solution of every problem. That the world is in such a bad condition morally is a conclusive evidence that none of its religions and philosophies, those of the civilised races less than any other, have ever possessed the truth. The right and logical explanations on the subject of the problems of the great dual principles -- right and wrong, good and evil, liberty and despotism, pain and pleasure, egotism and altruism -- are as impossible to them now as they were 1881 years ago. They are as far from the solution as they ever were but, -- To these there must be somewhere a consistent solution, and if our doctrines will show their competence to offer it, then the world will be the first one to confess that must be the true philosophy, the true religion, the true light, which gives truth and nothing but the truth. ==========================xxx========================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:56:48 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <343CE2A0.3519@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > Krishnaji used to invite his friends and others everyday to dine with him at > lunch. One time when he was in Madras, a local Judge was invited for lunch. > The Judge came up from surroundings whose table manners are considered as > being bad by those of the elite upper class. There's eating with the wrong fork, and there's vomiting into your dinner companion's food. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:59:25 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <343CE33D.6683@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > > Bart, > What is the Foundations name? From whom and how can the by-laws be > obtained? Where is this foundation centered? Who are the officers, > trustees and managment of this Theosophical "Foundation"? > > I and several more people I think would like to know. Please avoid a run > around if you can. Don't mask you answers with legal cans and can'ts > this time. Just reply to the simple questions, simply. > > I would be most appreciative, thank you in advance for your effort. You can do exactly the same thing I would do to get the answer: Send mail, email, or call the National Headquarters at Wheaton, and ask. I, however, have been forced by the actions of some people on this list not to quote any source other than myself and matters of public record. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 09:05:53 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: Intro to Crowley Studies Message-ID: <199710091604.JAA30914@scv3.apple.com> >Excellent. Do you have the material on the Wierda Conference where he was >proclaimed the TRUE world teacher (as opposed to the boring Krishnamurti)? No, unfortunately Crowley's seeking the mantle of the World Teacher has not featured prominently in biographies done to date. I am only aware of this in connection with some of his German activities w.r.t. the Fraternitas Saturni and sources in English are weak on this point. Flowers is an unreliable historian to say the least. I'd be grateful for any pointers to information on the subject. Crowley and Krishnamurti -- I think I feel a stage play coming on...... (Did I remember to mention that both people who love Crowley and people who hate him may like this introduction?) -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:44:28 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Elite or Enlightened? RE: Maslow Message-ID: <199710091645.MAA07380@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > Subject: Elite or Enlightened? RE: Maslow > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 10:31 PM > > ------------------------------ > > Keith: Thanks A. Safron. I was just about to make the same point. The > extremely rich get to be eccentric, the poor get to be crazy outcasts, but the > teachings are open to all if they take the time to seek, no matter the cost. > > I fall in the latter category, as I am poor, but often put such things ahead > of obligations, but that fall under karma and dharma, doesn't it? I should > pay my bills, I have a duty, but I want to explore this because, I MUST! > > Namaste > Keith Price (Keith and I slap cyberhands in agreement) A Safron > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:40:45 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Expensive Winos Message-ID: <199710091645.MAA07373@marconi.concentric.net> What if the wino was a Master in disguise? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:48:10 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <199710091648.MAA08141@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Foundation > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 9:01 AM > > You can do exactly the same thing I would do to get the answer: Send > mail, email, or call the National Headquarters at Wheaton, and ask. I, > however, have been forced by the actions of some people on this list not > to quote any source other than myself and matters of public record. Did they try to strangle you? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:18:55 EDT Subject: Re: Masters as Aliens Message-ID: <199710091725.NAA05691@elvis.vnet.net> In a message dated 97-10-09 08:52:14 EDT, you write: >Are you in your leathers? > >A. Safron Yep, It's a tape that a girlfriend and I made for a porno dealer friend of mine but he couldn't use it because there was too much joking during the whippings. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:35:16 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Intro to Crowley Studies Message-ID: <199710091746.NAA09139@elvis.vnet.net> In a message dated 97-10-09 12:25:58 EDT, you write: >Flowers is an unreliable historian to say the least. I'd be grateful for >any pointers to information on the subject. > I have heard that from a few of the local ranking OTO people. On the other hand, Frater U.D. speaks very highly of his book on the FS in his Letters From Germany. As I am not enough of an expert on the subject, I am naturally somewhat confused as to whose interpretation is right. My personal view is that if one looks at cultural impact, at least in the west, Crowley has had a far greater effect than Krishnamurti not only directly on the magickal culture, but, through his disciples, on the culture at large. Virtually everything we take for granted in our culture, from pan-sexual freedom to the abolition of authority has either its roots or its strongest proponent in Crowley. He taught that one could function as a spiritual being without the moral or ethical baggage that all other teachers presuppose and is certainly far more deserving of the title World Teacher than any of the other contenders. Do What Thou Wilt IS the Whole of the Law. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:36:20 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Expensive Winos Message-ID: <199710091749.NAA09702@elvis.vnet.net> In a message dated 97-10-09 12:47:21 EDT, you write: >What if the wino was a Master in disguise? > >A. Safron > Only if he was wearing shades and leather. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:57:01 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <199710091757.LAA03208@mailmx.micron.net> Bart writes: >John Algeo is impeccably clean, is a >scintillating conversationalist, and has wonderful table manners. Really now! One time I lived next door to a man who had all these fine qualities you list above. Then, one hot summer day, a barrage of police cars pulled up to the house, and after quite a brouhaha, hauled this refined gentlemen off to jail. Turns out he had whacked the head off of a business partner's of his about six years prior. . . You have been warned, Bart. And I did notice you didn't list, among Algeo's admirable qualities, what a beacon of theosophy he is. Typo? >Wino's have a disgusting smell about them, are frequently incoherent, >and have terrible table manners. A few years ago, I suffered from an affliction I can only refer to as "rabid Christian fundamentalism" (but I'm ok now, medication helps alot), and during this illness, a group of us would often go out to the seedy sides of town to rescue lost souls. Off we went, "impeccably clean" in body and soul. Part of the conversion process was to lure people with food - so we went around offering sandwiches and various drinks. One hapless soul, shivering and hungry, fell into my trap - I'd feed him for a price - that being to hear me roar. As he eagerly ate his food, I went on and on about how Jesus died for his sins and he need only turn back to God to live happily ever after and blah, blah, blah. He occasionally nodded to cue me he was listening lest I leave with the food. He would belch, and burp, and smack, and even groan while eating - those actions were about to kill me, but I was sustained knowing I was a warrior of God's. After the meal and the sermon, I asked him if he would like to pray - he looked at me and said "Ok." He put in hands together in the way I showed him since God has a favorite prayer position and it was important that this wino know that. He began his prayer, "Dear God, Jackson here. One of your creations and all of your creations are good. This creation has one of your other creations kneeling here next to me, as I know you can see. Lord, she means well, but until she removes her pretty little head from up her butt, I think she may end up like me. Thank you, Lord, and good night." I was aghast and sure that the Devil was in him and trying to steal a piece of my halo. Jackson turned to me and thanked me for the meal and walked off. I scurried back to the bosom of my group and they helped me reaffirm that I was a "chosen one" and some people just never will "get it." Then, off I went again, 'a wino huntin'. And it took me a couple years to finally even bother to think about what Jackson was trying to tell me. . .and the message changed my life. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:35:41 -0400 From: "libidia" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1275 Message-ID: <01bcd4ea$874df440$LocalHost@libidium> Thanks to all for your lovely list and personal messages to me. Right back at you, ten fold. I am feeling physically better but emotionally real shaky. I've had a couple of significant dreams since the op. One that informed me that this time it was either my dad or me to go and he wanted to stay real bad, so it was a near thing. The other in which I was giving a rousing speech to the US Congress about morality, from which Pete, the Theosophist, woke me just as I was getting somewhere. Sound familiar? MKR wrote: >May be each one of us in our own way contribute what we can to >further the cause of betterment of the conditions of Humanity. I think a lot of people are doing this, increasingly now. I now mark in my daily organizer with the "Save the Planet" meditation days so that I can add my little bit of energy to the mass meditations that I believe are happening, thanks to the Internet. As for this >View of the Chohan on the T. S. I have no idea what this document is, but have snipped a few of the phrases that give me real problems and, for some reason, pictures of guys in black boots with their arms outretched: >The doctrine we promulgate must, -- -- become...... >ultimately triumphant as every other truth....... >gradually enforcing its theories..... >man..... >react on...... >we have to preach and popularise....... >to cause as many of our fellow creatures as we possibly can...... >we must strive to make other people see that truth...... >that curse known as the "struggle for life," ...... As for the rest of it, oh yeah you wanna believe the TS should leave the rest of us teeming masses to find our own way. Praise the "xxx", hallelujah, that my great grandfather was so teeming busy with back breaking physical labour down on the farm, blissfully ignorant of "philosophy and science", (he couldn't read), completely unaware that ANYTHING needed "proof", and took the time to tell me just a little of the secret of "understanding" the truth all around us. We studied Maslow in our MBA courses (can't remember why it was on the curriculum) and I think it's a great reverse psychological idea that works, cos the harder one tries to fit into that heirarchy, thinking that getting "control" of stuff on the lower levels of that pyramid will release one to reach "self-actualization", the more one actually fails and so comes back that old understanding that was always there. I've said it before and I say it again - all these words are just symbols by people in various stages of understanding themselves and needing to tell someone else. I'm the worst of these people and I still don't understand why I can't shut up, but one day I know I will get there and there will be no need to say anything else to anyone. (Defeaning cheers from all) Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:15:02 -0400 From: "libidia" Subject: Re: See-er Message-ID: <01bcd4f8$68abd1c0$LocalHost@libidium> Hi again Bart: You wrote > > I can guess. I am not always correct. You think I am? Hey, I started out like you, a supremely confident, know it all little kid, who when questioned by anyone or anything, just immediately spoke "the truth as I knew it". I'm still doing it, but only when I feel safe! Of course now I'm all mixed up with being told by sages and experts and "parents" and governments that I don't know shit and all I have is "my opinion". I could be grossly "wrong" but as long as I remember the "golden rule" - "Harm None", only my fear stops me from "knowing and telling". When I doubt myself, I go to the Spirit WWW and read from the "real experts". If I just wait, I get signs - like from my surgeon who looked right into me, smiled and shook my hand before he released me. Talk about connection! Right after extracting this 8" metal tube from my you know where, wide awake in the most embarrassing postion a woman can be in when not in the thoes of passion, I get a message of recognition beyond words. It's a interesting journey. Not half! Annette From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:36:20 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Expensive Winos Message-ID: <199710091749.NAA09702@elvis.vnet.net> In a message dated 97-10-09 12:47:21 EDT, you write: >What if the wino was a Master in disguise? > >A. Safron > Only if he was wearing shades and leather. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:57:01 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <199710091757.LAA03208@mailmx.micron.net> Bart writes: >John Algeo is impeccably clean, is a >scintillating conversationalist, and has wonderful table manners. Really now! One time I lived next door to a man who had all these fine qualities you list above. Then, one hot summer day, a barrage of police cars pulled up to the house, and after quite a brouhaha, hauled this refined gentlemen off to jail. Turns out he had whacked the head off of a business partner's of his about six years prior. . . You have been warned, Bart. And I did notice you didn't list, among Algeo's admirable qualities, what a beacon of theosophy he is. Typo? >Wino's have a disgusting smell about them, are frequently incoherent, >and have terrible table manners. A few years ago, I suffered from an affliction I can only refer to as "rabid Christian fundamentalism" (but I'm ok now, medication helps alot), and during this illness, a group of us would often go out to the seedy sides of town to rescue lost souls. Off we went, "impeccably clean" in body and soul. Part of the conversion process was to lure people with food - so we went around offering sandwiches and various drinks. One hapless soul, shivering and hungry, fell into my trap - I'd feed him for a price - that being to hear me roar. As he eagerly ate his food, I went on and on about how Jesus died for his sins and he need only turn back to God to live happily ever after and blah, blah, blah. He occasionally nodded to cue me he was listening lest I leave with the food. He would belch, and burp, and smack, and even groan while eating - those actions were about to kill me, but I was sustained knowing I was a warrior of God's. After the meal and the sermon, I asked him if he would like to pray - he looked at me and said "Ok." He put in hands together in the way I showed him since God has a favorite prayer position and it was important that this wino know that. He began his prayer, "Dear God, Jackson here. One of your creations and all of your creations are good. This creation has one of your other creations kneeling here next to me, as I know you can see. Lord, she means well, but until she removes her pretty little head from up her butt, I think she may end up like me. Thank you, Lord, and good night." I was aghast and sure that the Devil was in him and trying to steal a piece of my halo. Jackson turned to me and thanked me for the meal and walked off. I scurried back to the bosom of my group and they helped me reaffirm that I was a "chosen one" and some people just never will "get it." Then, off I went again, 'a wino huntin'. And it took me a couple years to finally even bother to think about what Jackson was trying to tell me. . .and the message changed my life. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:35:41 -0400 From: "libidia" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1275 Message-ID: <01bcd4ea$874df440$LocalHost@libidium> Thanks to all for your lovely list and personal messages to me. Right back at you, ten fold. I am feeling physically better but emotionally real shaky. I've had a couple of significant dreams since the op. One that informed me that this time it was either my dad or me to go and he wanted to stay real bad, so it was a near thing. The other in which I was giving a rousing speech to the US Congress about morality, from which Pete, the Theosophist, woke me just as I was getting somewhere. Sound familiar? MKR wrote: >May be each one of us in our own way contribute what we can to >further the cause of betterment of the conditions of Humanity. I think a lot of people are doing this, increasingly now. I now mark in my daily organizer with the "Save the Planet" meditation days so that I can add my little bit of energy to the mass meditations that I believe are happening, thanks to the Internet. As for this >View of the Chohan on the T. S. I have no idea what this document is, but have snipped a few of the phrases that give me real problems and, for some reason, pictures of guys in black boots with their arms outretched: >The doctrine we promulgate must, -- -- become...... >ultimately triumphant as every other truth....... >gradually enforcing its theories..... >man..... >react on...... >we have to preach and popularise....... >to cause as many of our fellow creatures as we possibly can...... >we must strive to make other people see that truth...... >that curse known as the "struggle for life," ...... As for the rest of it, oh yeah you wanna believe the TS should leave the rest of us teeming masses to find our own way. Praise the "xxx", hallelujah, that my great grandfather was so teeming busy with back breaking physical labour down on the farm, blissfully ignorant of "philosophy and science", (he couldn't read), completely unaware that ANYTHING needed "proof", and took the time to tell me just a little of the secret of "understanding" the truth all around us. We studied Maslow in our MBA courses (can't remember why it was on the curriculum) and I think it's a great reverse psychological idea that works, cos the harder one tries to fit into that heirarchy, thinking that getting "control" of stuff on the lower levels of that pyramid will release one to reach "self-actualization", the more one actually fails and so comes back that old understanding that was always there. I've said it before and I say it again - all these words are just symbols by people in various stages of understanding themselves and needing to tell someone else. I'm the worst of these people and I still don't understand why I can't shut up, but one day I know I will get there and there will be no need to say anything else to anyone. (Defeaning cheers from all) Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:15:02 -0400 From: "libidia" Subject: Re: See-er Message-ID: <01bcd4f8$68abd1c0$LocalHost@libidium> Hi again Bart: You wrote > > I can guess. I am not always correct. You think I am? Hey, I started out like you, a supremely confident, know it all little kid, who when questioned by anyone or anything, just immediately spoke "the truth as I knew it". I'm still doing it, but only when I feel safe! Of course now I'm all mixed up with being told by sages and experts and "parents" and governments that I don't know shit and all I have is "my opinion". I could be grossly "wrong" but as long as I remember the "golden rule" - "Harm None", only my fear stops me from "knowing and telling". When I doubt myself, I go to the Spirit WWW and read from the "real experts". If I just wait, I get signs - like from my surgeon who looked right into me, smiled and shook my hand before he released me. Talk about connection! Right after extracting this 8" metal tube from my you know where, wide awake in the most embarrassing postion a woman can be in when not in the thoes of passion, I get a message of recognition beyond words. It's a interesting journey. Not half! Annette From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:37:33 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Expensive Winos Message-ID: <343D5CAD.4126@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > What if the wino was a Master in disguise? Then the Adept's purpose would be to drive me off. Remember, the Mahatmas attempt to change humanity with a minimum amount of direct interference. Therefore, an adept would not appear in repellent garb unless his/her purpose was to repel. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:38:39 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <343D5CEF.2AD@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Bart Lidofsky > > Subject: Re: Foundation > > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 9:01 AM > > > > You can do exactly the same thing I would do to get the answer: Send > > mail, email, or call the National Headquarters at Wheaton, and ask. I, > > however, have been forced by the actions of some people on this list not > > to quote any source other than myself and matters of public record. > > Did they try to strangle you? No, merely misquoted quotes I placed here, and attributed the quote to the original person, as reported by me. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:36:20 EDT From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Expensive Winos Message-ID: <199710091749.NAA09702@elvis.vnet.net> In a message dated 97-10-09 12:47:21 EDT, you write: >What if the wino was a Master in disguise? > >A. Safron > Only if he was wearing shades and leather. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:57:01 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <199710091757.LAA03208@mailmx.micron.net> Bart writes: >John Algeo is impeccably clean, is a >scintillating conversationalist, and has wonderful table manners. Really now! One time I lived next door to a man who had all these fine qualities you list above. Then, one hot summer day, a barrage of police cars pulled up to the house, and after quite a brouhaha, hauled this refined gentlemen off to jail. Turns out he had whacked the head off of a business partner's of his about six years prior. . . You have been warned, Bart. And I did notice you didn't list, among Algeo's admirable qualities, what a beacon of theosophy he is. Typo? >Wino's have a disgusting smell about them, are frequently incoherent, >and have terrible table manners. A few years ago, I suffered from an affliction I can only refer to as "rabid Christian fundamentalism" (but I'm ok now, medication helps alot), and during this illness, a group of us would often go out to the seedy sides of town to rescue lost souls. Off we went, "impeccably clean" in body and soul. Part of the conversion process was to lure people with food - so we went around offering sandwiches and various drinks. One hapless soul, shivering and hungry, fell into my trap - I'd feed him for a price - that being to hear me roar. As he eagerly ate his food, I went on and on about how Jesus died for his sins and he need only turn back to God to live happily ever after and blah, blah, blah. He occasionally nodded to cue me he was listening lest I leave with the food. He would belch, and burp, and smack, and even groan while eating - those actions were about to kill me, but I was sustained knowing I was a warrior of God's. After the meal and the sermon, I asked him if he would like to pray - he looked at me and said "Ok." He put in hands together in the way I showed him since God has a favorite prayer position and it was important that this wino know that. He began his prayer, "Dear God, Jackson here. One of your creations and all of your creations are good. This creation has one of your other creations kneeling here next to me, as I know you can see. Lord, she means well, but until she removes her pretty little head from up her butt, I think she may end up like me. Thank you, Lord, and good night." I was aghast and sure that the Devil was in him and trying to steal a piece of my halo. Jackson turned to me and thanked me for the meal and walked off. I scurried back to the bosom of my group and they helped me reaffirm that I was a "chosen one" and some people just never will "get it." Then, off I went again, 'a wino huntin'. And it took me a couple years to finally even bother to think about what Jackson was trying to tell me. . .and the message changed my life. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:35:41 -0400 From: "libidia" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1275 Message-ID: <01bcd4ea$874df440$LocalHost@libidium> Thanks to all for your lovely list and personal messages to me. Right back at you, ten fold. I am feeling physically better but emotionally real shaky. I've had a couple of significant dreams since the op. One that informed me that this time it was either my dad or me to go and he wanted to stay real bad, so it was a near thing. The other in which I was giving a rousing speech to the US Congress about morality, from which Pete, the Theosophist, woke me just as I was getting somewhere. Sound familiar? MKR wrote: >May be each one of us in our own way contribute what we can to >further the cause of betterment of the conditions of Humanity. I think a lot of people are doing this, increasingly now. I now mark in my daily organizer with the "Save the Planet" meditation days so that I can add my little bit of energy to the mass meditations that I believe are happening, thanks to the Internet. As for this >View of the Chohan on the T. S. I have no idea what this document is, but have snipped a few of the phrases that give me real problems and, for some reason, pictures of guys in black boots with their arms outretched: >The doctrine we promulgate must, -- -- become...... >ultimately triumphant as every other truth....... >gradually enforcing its theories..... >man..... >react on...... >we have to preach and popularise....... >to cause as many of our fellow creatures as we possibly can...... >we must strive to make other people see that truth...... >that curse known as the "struggle for life," ...... As for the rest of it, oh yeah you wanna believe the TS should leave the rest of us teeming masses to find our own way. Praise the "xxx", hallelujah, that my great grandfather was so teeming busy with back breaking physical labour down on the farm, blissfully ignorant of "philosophy and science", (he couldn't read), completely unaware that ANYTHING needed "proof", and took the time to tell me just a little of the secret of "understanding" the truth all around us. We studied Maslow in our MBA courses (can't remember why it was on the curriculum) and I think it's a great reverse psychological idea that works, cos the harder one tries to fit into that heirarchy, thinking that getting "control" of stuff on the lower levels of that pyramid will release one to reach "self-actualization", the more one actually fails and so comes back that old understanding that was always there. I've said it before and I say it again - all these words are just symbols by people in various stages of understanding themselves and needing to tell someone else. I'm the worst of these people and I still don't understand why I can't shut up, but one day I know I will get there and there will be no need to say anything else to anyone. (Defeaning cheers from all) Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:15:02 -0400 From: "libidia" Subject: Re: See-er Message-ID: <01bcd4f8$68abd1c0$LocalHost@libidium> Hi again Bart: You wrote > > I can guess. I am not always correct. You think I am? Hey, I started out like you, a supremely confident, know it all little kid, who when questioned by anyone or anything, just immediately spoke "the truth as I knew it". I'm still doing it, but only when I feel safe! Of course now I'm all mixed up with being told by sages and experts and "parents" and governments that I don't know shit and all I have is "my opinion". I could be grossly "wrong" but as long as I remember the "golden rule" - "Harm None", only my fear stops me from "knowing and telling". When I doubt myself, I go to the Spirit WWW and read from the "real experts". If I just wait, I get signs - like from my surgeon who looked right into me, smiled and shook my hand before he released me. Talk about connection! Right after extracting this 8" metal tube from my you know where, wide awake in the most embarrassing postion a woman can be in when not in the thoes of passion, I get a message of recognition beyond words. It's a interesting journey. Not half! Annette From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:37:33 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Expensive Winos Message-ID: <343D5CAD.4126@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > What if the wino was a Master in disguise? Then the Adept's purpose would be to drive me off. Remember, the Mahatmas attempt to change humanity with a minimum amount of direct interference. Therefore, an adept would not appear in repellent garb unless his/her purpose was to repel. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:38:39 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <343D5CEF.2AD@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Bart Lidofsky > > Subject: Re: Foundation > > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 9:01 AM > > > > You can do exactly the same thing I would do to get the answer: Send > > mail, email, or call the National Headquarters at Wheaton, and ask. I, > > however, have been forced by the actions of some people on this list not > > to quote any source other than myself and matters of public record. > > Did they try to strangle you? No, merely misquoted quotes I placed here, and attributed the quote to the original person, as reported by me. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:42:51 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <343D5DEB.2CC1@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Bart writes: > > >John Algeo is impeccably clean, is a > >scintillating conversationalist, and has wonderful table manners. > > Really now! One time I lived next door to a man who had all these fine > qualities you list above. Then, one hot summer day, a barrage of police > cars pulled up to the house, and after quite a brouhaha, hauled this refined > gentlemen off to jail. Turns out he had whacked the head off of a business > partner's of his about six years prior. . . At dinner? > You have been warned, Bart. And I did notice you didn't list, among Algeo's > admirable qualities, what a beacon of theosophy he is. Typo? I consider being a beacon of theosophy neither a plus nor a minus in regard to someone's desireability as a dinner companion. > >Wino's have a disgusting smell about them, are frequently incoherent, > >and have terrible table manners. > > A few years ago, I suffered from an affliction I can only refer to as "rabid > Christian fundamentalism" (but I'm ok now, medication helps alot), and .. > and some people just never will "get it." Then, off I went again, 'a wino > huntin'. > > And it took me a couple years to finally even bother to think about what > Jackson was trying to tell me. . .and the message changed my life. I was speaking of an iconical wino vs. the real John Algeo. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 18:46:20 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: See-er Message-ID: <343D5EBC.2C41@sprynet.com> libidia wrote: > I could be grossly "wrong" but as long as I remember the "golden rule" - > "Harm None", only my fear stops me from "knowing and telling". How is it physically possible to harm none? I have a collection of phrasings of the so-called "golden rule", and NONE of them are phrased anywhere near that, not even the Satanic version. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 17:14:55 -0600 From: JRC Subject: Re: Expensive Winos Message-ID: <199710092315.RAA20002@server.umt.edu> >> What if the wino was a Master in disguise? > Then the Adept's purpose would be to drive me off. > Remember, the Mahatmas attempt to change humanity with a minimum amount >of direct interference. Therefore, an adept would not appear in >repellent garb unless his/her purpose was to repel. Or unless - as was mentioned numerous times in the MH - they simply didn't give a fig for western notions of what "repellent" is ... believing the growth of the interior being to be vastly more important than the polite sensabilities of any particular culture. There's some letter in the MH (don't have it offhand) where KH is talking about one of his highest and most refined chelas ... and telling Sinnet that the fellow probably wouldn't even be permitted in an Englishman's drawing room - by western standards ... his clothes and hair and etc., ... he would have been looked at the same way the modern west looks at "winos" - by KH's standards the fellow was an elevated and particularly pure soul. It seems that the Mahatmas don't really seek to attract *or* repel ... but (as they said over and over) those who wish to approach them will of necessity judge by standards very different than those of polite society - the stature of a soul, it seems, has very little to do with the ability to bath often and talk well. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:55:08 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: See-er Message-ID: <199710100030.UAA19999@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: See-er > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 5:52 PM > > libidia wrote: > > I could be grossly "wrong" but as long as I remember the "golden rule" - > > "Harm None", only my fear stops me from "knowing and telling". > > How is it physically possible to harm none? I have a collection of > phrasings of the so-called "golden rule", and NONE of them are phrased > anywhere near that, not even the Satanic version. > > Ah, now I understand. Bart is a Satanist Theosophist. Cool. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:52:12 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: <199710100100.VAA06905@NetGSI.com> >> "Talk as much philosphy as you please, worship as many gods >> as you like, observe all ceremonies, sing devoted praises >> to any number of divine beings - liberation never comes, >> even at the end of a hundred aeons, without the >> realization of the Oneness of Self." > > What makes you think that the purpose of the Theosophical Society has >anything to do with spiritual advancement of any of the individual >members? > > Bart Lidofsky First of all, the quote is exactly what I have been saying on theos-l for years, and receiving lots of guff for. Bart, if you think for one moment that people don't join up in order to develop spiritually, then you are beyond me giving any advise to. So, just what is the "purpose" then? The spiritual advancement of the masses? And just how do we do that unless we are already there first? Is it reading and study, which Sankara suggests gets us nowhere? To what purpose do we read and ponder HPBs heavy books if not to spiritual advance? And if helping others is our only motive, then I would suggest we fold up our tents and let the Salvation Army and the zillion other charities today do it for us. Our purpose is not to preserve the basic Theosophical texts, which any library could do as well as the TSs. Its to prepare the way for the 6th Race, at least according to HPB. And what does that mean, if not spiritual advancement? It could be that you have been in Theosophy so long, that you are missing the forest for the trees, or mistaking the spiritual advancement for the intellectual rewards. I don't know. And when it all comes down to the bottom line, I can only really speak for myself. So, as far as I am concerned, my own personal purpose in the study of Theosophy and in being a member of two TSs is my own spipritual advancement in order to help others advance with me. Because, if I don't have the "realization" that Shankara is talking about, then how the heck do I go about helping others get it? And if I try to help others spiritual advance without knowing what I am doing, then I am likely to do more harm than good. This is exactly what the boddhisttva paradigm is all about--self-knowledge in order to properly help others gain self-knowledge for themselves. The 6th Race won't ever be able to manifest unless we, as its nucleus, prepare for it. This means a lot of different things, not least of which is preparing the physical human body to handle the higher frequencies necessary for 6th Race monads. How do we do this? By changing our own bodies so that they can do so, and by encouraging others as well, through mediation, yoga, magic, or whatever available techniques we want to use. Trying to get others to be compassionate is also a good technique to use. But just helping others per se equates us with all of the other charitable institutions in the world today, and I would like to think that the Theosophical Societies would have a slightly broader picture or agenda to follow. Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:48:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Expensive Winos Message-ID: In message <199710091645.MAA07373@marconi.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes > >What if the wino was a Master in disguise? > >A. Safron Egad! Unmasked again! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:27:08 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <199710100327.VAA00902@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: > I was speaking of an iconical wino vs. the real John Algeo. Give me a break, Bart. How is it possible for you to even to make a comparison then? You're just wimping out here. Iconical wino! So, you were simply stereotyping with nothing to back it up? Or was this all just some gratuitous kissing of Algeo's ass? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 23:31:43 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: <343DA19F.1D01@sprynet.com> Jerry Schueler wrote: > > >> "Talk as much philosphy as you please, worship as many gods > >> as you like, observe all ceremonies, sing devoted praises > >> to any number of divine beings - liberation never comes, > >> even at the end of a hundred aeons, without the > >> realization of the Oneness of Self." > > > > What makes you think that the purpose of the Theosophical Society has > >anything to do with spiritual advancement of any of the individual > >members? > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > First of all, the quote is exactly what I have been saying on theos-l > for years, and receiving lots of guff for. Bart, if you think for one > moment that people don't join up in order to develop spiritually, then > you are beyond me giving any advise to. So, just what is the > "purpose" then? The spiritual advancement of the masses? And > just how do we do that unless we are already there first? Is it > reading and study, which Sankara suggests gets us nowhere? Actually, I believe that the purpose of the Theosophical Society is, in fact, to speed the evolution of humanity, and to create an atmosphere conducive to the creation of seed groups that, in a millenium or two, will become Adepts. If the individual members achieve spiritual advancement, so much the better. > To what purpose do we read and ponder HPBs heavy books if > not to spiritual advance? And if helping others is our only motive, > then I would suggest we fold up our tents and let the Salvation > Army and the zillion other charities today do it for us. Our > purpose is not to preserve the basic Theosophical texts, which > any library could do as well as the TSs. Its to prepare the way > for the 6th Race, at least according to HPB. And what does > that mean, if not spiritual advancement? In the 19th Century, there was a worldwide atmosphere which inhibited spiritual experimentation, and therefore spiritual advancement. The Theosophical Society, in my opinion, was the nucleus of a move to break that logjam. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 00:47:57 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Crowley, Flowers and Hitler Message-ID: <199710100746.AAA39996@scv2.apple.com> >I have heard that from a few of the local ranking OTO people. On the other >hand, Frater U.D. speaks very highly of his book on the FS in his Letters >From Germany. As I am not enough of an expert on the subject, I am >naturally somewhat confused as to whose interpretation is right. I think a lot of Flowers' historical writing is self-indicting. One useful exercise, for instance, is to read "Futhark" and the scholarly "The Occult Roots of Nazism" by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke together, and then ask yourself why Flowers would so completely misrepresent Guido von List when he had access to the primary sources and appears to be familiar with them. A political agenda is clear; he is sanitizing List and his system by deliberate omission, and trying to erect his own new rune-cult on top of this revisionist myth, all the while posing as an objective historian. The same is true in "Fire and Ice", but this time the objective is to paint the Fraternitas Saturni as a pre-Aquino adherent of the "left hand path" in order to bolster the Temple of Set's political position. By the way, given that we are among Theosophists, does anyone have a better source in English than Goodrick-Clarke on Ariosophy, a German descendant of Theosophy from which most of the modern Rune interest ultimately derives? (As well as the Thule Society -- though Goodrick-Clarke points out that Hitler had little patience with the Ariosophical milieu and attacked it in "Mein Kampf.") >My personal view is that if one looks at cultural impact, at least in the >west, Crowley has had a far greater effect than Krishnamurti not only >directly >on the magickal culture, but, through his disciples, on the culture at large. >Virtually everything we take for granted in our culture, from pan-sexual >freedom to the abolition of authority has either its roots or its strongest >proponent in Crowley. He taught that one could function as a spiritual being >without the moral or ethical baggage that all other teachers presuppose >and is >certainly far more deserving of the title World Teacher than any of the other >contenders. Have to argue with you here. (And as you can tell, I hate to argue history.) Crowley was more in tune with these aspects of the times than Krishnamurti, but the developments you cited were well established already before Crowley was born. The Free Love movement already existed and was already related to Spiritualism, the great under-acknowledged ancestor of modern occultism and Theosophy. There were also a few waves of romantic decadence and Satanism before him. Anti-authoritarian trends had been strong since the humanistic 18th century in the West and Crowley's own views -- as well as those of rigidly hierarchical initiatory groups like the Golden Dawn, A.'. A.'. and from what I'm given to believe the Esoteric Section as well -- could be considered reactionary and authoritarian despite their lip service to freedom. Crowley did ride these waves in society but they were around before he was. It would be harder to paint Krishnamurti as having picked up on popular social movements and attuned himself to them but I would say that Krishnamurti has had a broader influence than Crowley. He is much better known and respected in society at large. As for the World Teacher title, I don't know what would be good grounds for debating it as it's not a historical question. Crowley has had a lot of influence on my life and my spirituality. The longer I've studied him and his sources, the more I've realized that he was largely a syncretist from earlier traditions, emphatically including Theosophy, which I regard as a direct ancestor of Crowley's system. Too little attention has been paid to this source by Crowley's biographers and followers and I'm hoping to make some contributions in this area. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:25:29 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1272 Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: "I have just read your statement the 4th time. I can't figure out what you're talking about!!!! :(" Are you joking? If you are not, could you please give clear questions. I will try to explain as good as I am able to. Did you have a chance to go to the net with http://chat.accesscom.net/STORMFRONT/default.htm ? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:44:55 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1276 Message-ID: To Annette: > I can guess. I am not always correct. "You think I am? Hey, I started out like you, a supremely confident, know it all little kid, who when questioned by anyone or anything, just immediately spoke "the truth as I knew it". I'm still doing it, but only when I feel safe! Of course now I'm all mixed up with being told by sages and experts and "parents" and governments that I don't know shit and all I have is "my opinion"." It's great how you say this and I often feel the very same way about this. Especially to feel safe is suddenly not an easy thing anymore. I could be grossly "wrong" but as long as I remember the "golden rule" - "Harm None", only my fear stops me from "knowing and telling". Here again I agree 100 % and I consider the fear often as a very wise feeling but then time also learned me that if I say something "true" and the person I say it to is not ripe for it, the person simply doesn't under- stand it, misses it, doesn't believe it - to me there seems to be some kind of a law like "truth" saves itself. Otherwise it simply stays beyond words. Sometimes it cost's a lot of force to be one who "might know a little more" and to be treated for that as if one is the very last human beeing there is on the whole wold and often it isn't easy either to deal with the feeling "they-don't-understand-me". Just my opinon. All the very best for you, Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:57:01 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1276 Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: I do have a funny habit, i.e. playing with words and trying to imagine what pictures they make - you gave me two wonderful ones: "a beacon of theosophy" (I am not sure if it is from you but it looks great!) " iconical wino" (- wouw - beautyful). Thank you - I enjoyed them very much and shall keep them for a while. "How is it physically possible to harm none?" Physically? Drive carefully, avoid accidents ... but mind you inspite of the best intentions you might have, it could be possible that you ran into somebody without even wanting it at all ... Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:37:30 -0400 From: "libidia" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1276 Message-ID: <01bcd592$6bc75ba0$50845ad1@libidium> Hi Kym, you wrote >And it took me a couple years to finally even bother to think about what >Jackson was trying to tell me. . .and the message changed my life. It's an interesting journey, isn't it? Thanks for telling me about it. Annette. Hi Bart, you wrote > How is it physically possible to harm none? I have a collection of >phrasings of the so-called "golden rule", and NONE of them are phrased >anywhere near that, not even the Satanic version. Just a quick note to honour your question and to explain something about nuts like me. What I say is a mixture of two things: what comes from my "brain" which I think is a collection of all things I and all my genetic ancestors have heard/read/experienced and I no longer bother to expend the energy to remember the source because my process of "learning" since leaving the academic tradition is to do an "inside me" test and then assimmilate or reject so that when I use the knowlege attained it comes from/through me in my words/actions/symbols; and from somewhere else, which happens with a kind of shiver or queasy "gut feel", or in a vision, or dream, or slap up side of the head. Because I have been hurt myself by other people's actions and words, and although I know that being "harmed" is within myself and not their "doing", I am trying hard to "see" other people's states and understand my own, so that what I do and say, hopefully, is positive for all. I'm a real novice at this bit, yet. So: I can only harm myself and my "golden rule" may have been told me in those words by a particularly wise tree, or Merlin, or Black Elk, or, as you say, some author of Pagan rites, or ....... perhaps it's two words representing a universal law that someone like Mdme B. could write 5 books about. I'm fast developing another "golden rule" for warriors: "duck and cover". And one just for Annette: "learn to laugh at yourself, or else". See ya Bart. Regards Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:48:18 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: <199710101649.MAA16175@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Jerry Schueler > Subject: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 8:02 PM > > >> "Talk as much philosphy as you please, worship as many gods > >> as you like, observe all ceremonies, sing devoted praises > >> to any number of divine beings - liberation never comes, > >> even at the end of a hundred aeons, without the > >> realization of the Oneness of Self." > > > > What makes you think that the purpose of the Theosophical Society has > >anything to do with spiritual advancement of any of the individual > >members? > > > > Bart Lidofsky > I hope this question was just another sarcastic jests of yours. What is TS? A museum of various religions and philosophies? A vending machine full of ideas and study programs? Is it simply just an educational arm - get your spiritual advancement elsewhere? Actually, I believe one is spiritually advancing everyday, with every action that is taken. Does that mean TS exists in some kind of twilight zone outside of "life"? TS then is not part of life, only living on the intellectual plane. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:50:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: See-er Message-ID: <971010134837_471323187@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-10 05:04:34 EDT, you write: > Ah, now I understand. Bart is a Satanist Theosophist. Cool. > >A. Safron Good for him. We need more Satanists in the TS. Keeps the Second Object rounded out. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:46:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Crowley, Flowers and Hitler Message-ID: <971010134405_643243826@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-10 04:02:58 EDT, you write: > I would say that >Krishnamurti has had a broader influence than Crowley. He is much better >known and respected in society at large. > >As for the World Teacher title, I don't know what would be good grounds >for debating it as it's not a historical question. Crowley has had a lot >of influence on my life and my spirituality. The longer I've studied him >and his sources, the more I've realized that he was largely a syncretist >from earlier traditions, emphatically including Theosophy, which I regard >as a direct ancestor of Crowley's system. Too little attention has been >paid to this source by Crowley's biographers and followers and I'm hoping >to make some contributions in this area. > >-- >Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org > Interesting stuff. One then must wonder what Frater U.D.'s motivations are in his praise of Flowers. Your analysis of the historic roots of modern culture is quite accurate, though I would contend that the force of Crowley's personality combined with the impact his life had on the art underground of the fifties that became the mainstream of the sixties and beyond became placed him in an iconic position as prophet, and thus as World Teacher as that culture has become dominant. My feeling, and this is a purely personal observation with no sociological data to back it up, is that Crowley is in fact, far better known than Krishnamurti and that while lots of folks pay lip service respect to Krishnamurti, given the choice they would rather be reading Crowley and that it is in fact Crowley who is more respected and Krishnamurti thought of as a somewhat boring and often incomprehensible eccentric who had a weird childhood and then became a guru who used Horatio Costa as a foot stool (which is all the man is good for). Personally, I would not like to be either of them, having too much fun being plain old Chuck Cosimano. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:56:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Expensive Winos Message-ID: <971010135316_1544271156@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-10 10:19:54 EDT, you write: >>What if the wino was a Master in disguise? >> >>A. Safron > >Egad! Unmasked again! > >Alan It was the shades and the leather that gave you away. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:37:08 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <343E83E4.5D49@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Bart wrote: > > > I was speaking of an iconical wino vs. the real John Algeo. > > Give me a break, Bart. How is it possible for you to even to make a > comparison then? You're just wimping out here. Iconical wino! So, you were > simply stereotyping with nothing to back it up? Or was this all just some > gratuitous kissing of Algeo's ass? The original statement was whether one would rather have dinner with a wino than John Algeo. Obviously, it is possible to imagine some situation in which a dinner with an otherwise undesireable dinner companion would be preferable to dinner with an otherwise preferrable dinner companion. But those exceptions make the original question moot. There might be a wino who is a Master in disguise, is a long-lost relative, has some important information for me, etc. But 99.9999+% of the time, this would not be the case, in which case, I would prefer to have dinner with John Algeo. OK? As far as stereotyping goes, I am not the one who first used the term "wino" here in this context. And I hardly think one would call it "ass-kissing" to say one would rather have dinner with a given individual than a wino. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:54:38 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: <199710102005.QAA04352@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 10:34 PM > > Jerry Schueler wrote: > > > > >> "Talk as much philosphy as you please, worship as many gods > > >> as you like, observe all ceremonies, sing devoted praises > > >> to any number of divine beings - liberation never comes, > > >> even at the end of a hundred aeons, without the > > >> realization of the Oneness of Self." > > > > > > What makes you think that the purpose of the Theosophical Society has > > >anything to do with spiritual advancement of any of the individual > > >members? > > > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > First of all, the quote is exactly what I have been saying on theos-l > > for years, and receiving lots of guff for. Bart, if you think for one > > moment that people don't join up in order to develop spiritually, then > > you are beyond me giving any advise to. So, just what is the > > "purpose" then? The spiritual advancement of the masses? And > > just how do we do that unless we are already there first? Is it > > reading and study, which Sankara suggests gets us nowhere? > > Actually, I believe that the purpose of the Theosophical Society is, in > fact, to speed the evolution of humanity, and to create an atmosphere > conducive to the creation of seed groups that, in a millenium or two, > will become Adepts. .. Maybe that's true, Bart. And maybe it isn't. It also sounds rather elitist and foolish that TS alone would be the cradle of Adepts. My choice would be first be Alice Bailey for such an endeavour, but I don't really believe in such things. Life itself is teacher and the toughest adept maker there is. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:13:47 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1272 Message-ID: <343E8C7B.35B6@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > > To Bart Lidofsky: "I have just read your statement the 4th time. I can't > figure out what > you're talking about!!!! :(" > > Are you joking? If you are not, could you please give clear questions. I > will try > to explain as good as I am able to. Did you have a chance to go to the net with > http://chat.accesscom.net/STORMFRONT/default.htm ? I now understand better your statement, having looked at the page (I really had no idea you meant going to a web search engine; I hope that explains my total confusion). Are you trying to say that I come off like a white supremicist? I hope not; I used to participate in a BBS network AA discussion group (and was specifically invited there by both the moderator and an active participant who is a member of the Nation of Islam, who were looking for conservative white who was sympathetic to African-American issues, to credibly answer the white bigots present). I was granted an "honorary brother card" by the membership there, without compromising any of my principles (I took a theosophical viewpoint of "What you do to your neighbor, you are doing to yourself, and vice versa"), and actually got a number of the participants interested in Theosophy. Going back to the racism in New York, I think the situation was well-depicted in the Spike Lee movies, DO THE RIGHT THING, and JUNGLE FEVER. A scene unnoticed by most critics in DO THE RIGHT THING, but very key to the situation, was when a white yuppie who owned a brownstone in the neighborhood accidentally wheels his bicycle over the foot of a black resident. The reactions in both directions shows that, although the yuppie has little or nothing in common with his neighbors, he is part of the neighborhood, while the owner of the pizzaria, although he has been there longer than most of the residents, never was part of the neighborhood. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:59:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: <971010135839_1665767734@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-10 12:59:38 EDT, you write: >TS then is not part of life, only living on the intellectual plane. > >A. Safron As life has less and less to recommend it, something that is not a part of it grows more and more desirable. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:33:00 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1276 Message-ID: <343E90FC.2E0C@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > > To Bart Lidofsky: I do have a funny habit, i.e. playing with words > and trying to imagine what pictures they make - you gave me > two wonderful ones: > > "a beacon of theosophy" (I am not sure if it is from you but it looks great!) not me > " iconical wino" (- wouw - beautyful). Thank you - I enjoyed them very > much and shall keep them for a while. me. It was a take-off on a previous thread when I was talking about separating diamonds from garbage, and some responded that some people find garbage to be valuable, so I replied that I was speaking iconically. > > "How is it physically possible to harm none?" > > Physically? Drive carefully, avoid accidents ... but mind you inspite of > the best intentions you might have, it could be possible that you ran > into somebody without even wanting it at all ... If you drive too carefully, you can delay people who need to get where they're going on time, and cause others to have accidents. I have always considered the Theosophical phrasing of the Golden Rule to be "What you do to others, you are doing to yourself, and what you do to yourself you are doing to others." Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:53:08 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: See-er Message-ID: <343E95B4.72B6@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-10-10 05:04:34 EDT, you write: > > > Ah, now I understand. Bart is a Satanist Theosophist. Cool. > > > >A. Safron > > Good for him. We need more Satanists in the TS. Keeps the Second Object > rounded out. Actually, I'm not, although I used to correspond with Michael Aquino (I have very little use for Anton LaVey, however). I find that the modern Satanic organizations are strongly derived from Theosophical ideas and concepts, although not the way HPB would have liked it, in all probability. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:04:15 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <199710102104.OAA07537@palrel1.hp.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > A few years ago, I suffered from an affliction I can only refer to as "rabid > Christian fundamentalism" (but I'm ok now, medication helps alot) ... Christian fundamentalism? You? Hmmm ... maybe it was you I recently saw at an Idaho airport handing out copies of _The Secret Doctrine_, saying "It'll change your life, brother." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:19:18 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1275 Message-ID: <199710102119.OAA11846@palrel1.hp.com> "libidia" wrote: > As for this View of the Chohan on the T. S. > I have no idea what this document is, but have snipped a few of the phrases > that give me real problems and, for some reason, pictures of guys in black > boots with their arms outretched: >> The doctrine we promulgate must, -- -- become...... >> ultimately triumphant as every other truth....... >> gradually enforcing its theories..... >> man..... >> react on...... >> we have to preach and popularise....... >> to cause as many of our fellow creatures as we possibly can...... >> we must strive to make other people see that truth...... >> that curse known as the "struggle for life," ...... Understandable reaction. Those much abused words also make me shrink a little. But I think the Maha Chohan meant making truths available to receptive people, not mean forcing it on people who don't want it. I, for one, am glad for the Asoka's, the St. Paul's, and the Vivekananda's who made the doctrines of their obscure and little known teachers available to me. Likewise, I'm glad HPB didn't hide her light under a bushell. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:37:46 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: <343E921A.3776@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > I hope this question was just another sarcastic jests of yours. What is TS? > A museum of various religions and philosophies? A vending machine full > of ideas and study programs? Is it simply just an educational arm - get > your spiritual advancement elsewhere? To give an analogy, If life is a game, we are playing it without most of the rules. The Theosophical Society doesn't directly help with the game of life; it does, however, help us figure out what the rules are, so that we can play better. But knowing the rules simply gives one a better opportunity to play better; it doesn't mean that one will. I don't believe the purpose of the TS is the spiritual advancement of the members. I believe that the purpose is to enable the members to learn what they must do to become more spiritually advanced, and to let the information spread to the non-members. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:49:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <971010174910_125202254@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-10 15:44:18 EDT, you write: >There might be a wino who is a Master in disguise, is a long-lost >relative, has some important information for me, etc. But 99.9999+% of >the time, this would not be the case, in which case, I would prefer to >have dinner with John Algeo. OK? > So would I. Is anyone here stupid enough to accuse ME of kissing up to John Algeo? If a master in disguise wants to have dinner with me, he had damn well better make himself presentable and not throw up all over the desert! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:00:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: See-er Message-ID: <971010175803_-1227831471@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-10 16:56:22 EDT, you write: > I find that the modern >Satanic organizations are strongly derived from Theosophical ideas and >concepts, although not the way HPB would have liked it, in all >probability. > > Bart Lidofsky Actually, I think HPB would have loved it! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:08:28 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <199710110003.UAA29960@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart > Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 2:43 PM > But 99.9999+% of > the time, this would not be the case, in which case, I would prefer to > have dinner with John Algeo. OK? > I'd love to have dinner with John, too - if he's he paying. A Safrpm From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:22:06 -0400 From: jim meier Subject: Re: Golden Rule(s) Message-ID: <199710102022_MC2-237B-7EFA@compuserve.com> from 10/09, From: "libidia" >I could be grossly "wrong" but as long as I remember the "golden rule" - >"Harm None", only my fear stops me from "knowing and telling". to which Bart replied, > How is it physically possible to harm none? I have a collection of >phrasings of the so-called "golden rule", and NONE of them are phrased >anywhere near that, not even the Satanic version. **** There are a number of versions of the "Ten Commandments", too, including the (original?) one in Patanjali's Sutras of Yoga. In it, the first one is Harmlessness, or ahimsa. Seems like that could be considered a "golden" rule, as it is listed first. Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:10:14 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: See-er Message-ID: <199710110027.UAA05938@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: See-er > Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 5:01 PM > > In a message dated 97-10-10 16:56:22 EDT, you write: > > > I find that the modern > >Satanic organizations are strongly derived from Theosophical ideas and > >concepts, although not the way HPB would have liked it, in all > >probability. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Actually, I think HPB would have loved it! > > Chuck the Heretic Now this is the kind of thing that should be spread all over the Net. Also give theos-l an even bigger and better rep than it already has! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:16:27 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: <199710110027.UAA05949@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? > Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 3:18 PM > > In a message dated 97-10-10 12:59:38 EDT, you write: > > >TS then is not part of life, only living on the intellectual plane. > > > >A. Safron > > As life has less and less to recommend it, something that is not a part of it > grows more and more desirable. > > Chuck the Heretic Except that pesky thing called Life keeps encroaching on paradise at Olcott. Am I right that they're building a Dominick's across the street from Quest Book store? Also a stop light to facilitate traffic into Dom's huge parking lot? The paradise in the woods that was once Olcott, even back as little 20 years ago has turned into a raging suburbia with an overabundance of restaurants, triple left turn lanes and who know what in the future- an industrial park? Maybe it is time to ascend to the mental plane or at least the astral. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:24:39 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: web page update: Into to Crowley Studies Message-ID: <199710110027.UAA05958@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: web page update: Into to Crowley Studies > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 7:03 AM > > At 03:16 AM 10/9/97 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 97-10-08 15:56:13 EDT, you write: > > > >>A new Introduction to Crowley Studies is now available at www.maroney.org. > >> > >>-- > >>Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org > >> Loved the Heaven's Gate page. Maybe TS's new slogan should be "Last Chance to Advance Beyond Human!" :-) A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:59:57 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: In message <199710102005.QAA04352@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes, quoting Bart: >> Actually, I believe that the purpose of the Theosophical Society is, in >> fact, to speed the evolution of humanity, and to create an atmosphere >> conducive to the creation of seed groups that, in a millenium or two, >> will become Adepts. .. > >Maybe that's true, Bart. And maybe it isn't. I think not. > >It also sounds rather elitist and foolish that TS alone would be >the cradle of Adepts. My choice would be first be Alice Bailey >for such an endeavour, but I don't really believe in such things. I never could read Alice Bailey - too many words in blue type for me. I did read enough to realise she was only rehashing TS theosophy but using a differnt "Master." > >Life itself is teacher and the toughest adept maker there is. Now that's the truth. We are all in school - and prep school at that. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:58:42 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <199710110058.SAA15163@mailmx.micron.net> Chuck wrote: >So would I. Is anyone here stupid enough to accuse ME of kissing up to John >Algeo? I think you'd kiss anyone's ass if they paid you enough. . . >If a master in disguise wants to have dinner with me, he had damn well better >make himself presentable and not throw up all over the desert! Indeed! God save the cactus!! Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:08:21 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Digest 1276 Message-ID: In message <343E90FC.2E0C@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >"What you >do to others, you are doing to yourself, and what you do to yourself you >are doing to others." It was good for me, was it good for you? [joke] Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:10:42 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Thumpy things Message-ID: <199710110110.TAA16769@mailmx.micron.net> Titus wrote: >Christian fundamentalism? You? Hmmm ... maybe it was you I recently saw at an >Idaho airport handing out copies of _The Secret Doctrine_, saying "It'll >change your life, brother." Eeeecks! I had hoped to keep at least that part a secret! Do you have pictures? Price is no object. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:04:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1276 Message-ID: In message <01bcd592$6bc75ba0$50845ad1@libidium>, libidia writes >Because I have been hurt myself by other people's actions and words, and >although I know that being "harmed" is within myself and not their "doing", >I am trying hard to "see" other people's states and understand my own, so >that what I do and say, hopefully, is positive for all. I'm a real novice >at this bit, yet. Not always true, IMHO. If other people's actions harm us and their "doing" takes account of what they perceive of our individual "within" then the harm they do may well be *intentional.* There are some really nasty people out there who can do this. Take care .... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:50:59 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Crowley, Flowers and Hitler Message-ID: In message <199710100746.AAA39996@scv2.apple.com>, Tim Maroney writes >Spiritualism, the great under-acknowledged >ancestor of modern occultism and Theosophy. A big AMEN to that! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:37:37 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: <343EE671.43CC@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > Actually, I believe that the purpose of the Theosophical Society is, in > > fact, to speed the evolution of humanity, and to create an atmosphere > > conducive to the creation of seed groups that, in a millenium or two, > > will become Adepts. .. > > Maybe that's true, Bart. And maybe it isn't. > > It also sounds rather elitist and foolish that TS alone would be > the cradle of Adepts. My choice would be first be Alice Bailey > for such an endeavour, but I don't really believe in such things. Actually, I do not believe that any of the seed groups would come out of the Theosophical Society. Rather, I believe that the seed groups could only be formed in an atmosphere of religious experimentation, an atmosphere which the TS was a key part of creating (although not necessarily a major part). Secondly, I think that the knowledge made public (or more public) by the Theosophical Society acted as a healthy gene influx to these seed groups, increasing the chances that they will eventually become Adepts. Mind you, the overwhelming majority of these seed groups just self destruct. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:44:01 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Modern Satanism Message-ID: <343EE7F1.252F@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-10-10 16:56:22 EDT, you write: > > > I find that the modern > >Satanic organizations are strongly derived from Theosophical ideas and > >concepts, although not the way HPB would have liked it, in all > >probability. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Actually, I think HPB would have loved it! Well, the basis of moden Satanism takes a very theosophical point of view towards Satan: they reject the concept of the spiritual or any higher self, and concentrate on the material, or lower self. And do it very successfully, I might add. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:50:07 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Crowley, Flowers and Hitler Message-ID: <343EE95F.6E91@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <199710100746.AAA39996@scv2.apple.com>, Tim Maroney > writes > >Spiritualism, the great under-acknowledged > >ancestor of modern occultism and Theosophy. > > A big AMEN to that! I have read the works of Conan Doyle, the works of Erich "Harry Houdini" Weiss, as well as the correspondence between them. The major problem with the Spiritualist movement was that it was born in fraud, and its rules almost explicitly invited frauds to join. And Greshem's Law (sp?) holds. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:15:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Dinner dates - to Bart Message-ID: <971011021541_861499989@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-10 20:59:40 EDT, you write: >I think you'd kiss anyone's ass if they paid you enough. . . > Let me know when you pass the IQ test. IF they can score one low enough From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:33:47 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Modern Satanism Message-ID: <199710111240.IAA29900@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Modern Satanism > Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 9:46 PM > > Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 97-10-10 16:56:22 EDT, you write: > > > > > I find that the modern > > >Satanic organizations are strongly derived from Theosophical ideas and > > >concepts, although not the way HPB would have liked it, in all > > >probability. > > > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Actually, I think HPB would have loved it! > > Well, the basis of moden Satanism takes a very theosophical point of > view towards Satan: they reject the concept of the spiritual or any > higher self, and concentrate on the material, or lower self. And do it > very successfully, I might add. I read this post to Chuck, my husband and he want to know if you are for real. If you are, then he may just join the list to find out if it's true. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:38:16 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? Message-ID: <199710111240.IAA29906@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: What is the Purpose of Theosophy??? > Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 9:40 PM > > Actually, I do not believe that any of the seed groups would come out > of the Theosophical Society. Rather, I believe that the seed groups > could only be formed in an atmosphere of religious experimentation, an > atmosphere which the TS was a key part of creating (although not > necessarily a major part). Secondly, I think that the knowledge made > public (or more public) by the Theosophical Society acted as a healthy > gene influx to these seed groups, increasing the chances that they will > eventually become Adepts. Mind you, the overwhelming majority of these > seed groups just self destruct. > I think you got Adept fever, kinda like disco fever. As for self-destruction, I believe TS has already been there and went. I will elaborate that in another, much longer, post. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:24:31 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Modern Satanism Message-ID: <343F9A2F.10B9@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > Well, the basis of moden Satanism takes a very theosophical point of > > view towards Satan: they reject the concept of the spiritual or any > > higher self, and concentrate on the material, or lower self. And do it > > very successfully, I might add. > > I read this post to Chuck, my husband and he want to know if you are for real. > If you are, then he may just join the list to find out if it's true. If you mean was my statement serious or a joke, it was serious. If you are wondering about the Christian Fundamentalist accusations of Satanism today, I would suggest that you read a book called SATANIC PANIC, by Jeffery S. Victor, ISBN 0-8126-9191-1 (0-8126-9192-X for paperback). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:55:17 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Soul-infused Personalities Message-ID: <199710111656.MAA28980@newman.concentric.net> Bart Lidoflsky made this statement recently: "Actually, I believe that the purpose of the Theosophical Society is, in fact, to speed the evolution of humanity, and to create an atmosphere conducive to the creation of seed groups that, in a millennium or two, will become Adepts". .. IMHO, that may have been true at one time. I believe there was a system set up that involved The Liberal Catholic Church, (6th & 2nd Ray), Co-Masons (1st & 7th Ray) and the ES, whose Rays I am not privilege to know. The introductory organization was the TS, where the neophytes came to hear lectures, read books and attend Lodges or study groups. If they desired or felt the call, they would then be funneled into the other three. Attending all three (LCC, Co-Mason, ES) was a way of refining the human vehicles, and therefore, speeding their evolution and perhaps, providing seed groups for future Adepts or as the dictionary defines it, "very skilled persons." It is said in "The Willow in the Tempest" (a brief history of The Liberal Catholic Church in the United States from 1917 to 1942), by Robert Norton, that the holy orders and priesthood, only open to men, were supposed be avenues to initiation. I do not know what avenues were open to the women, but can only guess it was the Co-Masons, where women were equals with men, but behind closed doors. >From the little I know about the ES, they were those who went onto higher studies and perhaps, were in touch or at least, under the guidance of the Masters or a disciple of one. Another member of Theos-l called joining all of these groups "running the gauntlet". This system was functioning together in the 1920's, especially with the entry of the Krishnamurti, who all expected to be World Teacher. He was the cherry on top of the banana split, so to speak. For not only did one have this system for refinement, there was the eminent possibility that the World Teacher would soon be instructing you personally. Alas, there are many good systems, but the personalities that run them can fail. CWL had his much publicized problems. I have read that Wedgewood hid cocaine in his crozier. Arundale made many strange statements that were later questioned. Initiations, or supposed initiations, were handed out to the favorites like candy at Christmas. The true destruction of this system, came when Krishnamurti, as a personality, decided that the WT job wasn't for him. The linchpin of the system had fallen away and the wheel of TS has never fully recovered. Parts of these system are functioning, but not necessarily as one or even friendly to the others. Anyone that knows astrology knows that we are mixture of good and bad, manifesting in different behaviors, weaknesses and talents. If the weaknesses are not corrected, they can be the downfall of a lifetime or even of a system, if one is powerful enough. IMHO, the previous mentioned system was a valiant effort to soften and correct those human failings through superhuman methods. But, as I believe Alan said once, "A shmuck in a miter is still a shmuck." The seeds for the future must be soul-infused personalities. People whose personalities are under the control of the soul and willing forget themselves for the good of others. They may have psychic powers, but only use them when necessary. They will be willing to serve at any moment and will be always listening for the voice of their souls. Well, that's my quarter's worth and probably my summation of what how I view TS, past, present and future. Can TS let go of the old systems? Rejuvenate them? Do the old systems of the 1920"s even work anymore and are they relevant to the 21st century? Since this is a Scorpionic organization, under the 4th Ray (Harmony through Conflict), the members will probably to have to fight it out. Namaste A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:45:11 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Soul-infused Personalities Message-ID: <343FBB27.7991@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > IMHO, that may have been true at one time. I believe there was a system set up that involved > The Liberal Catholic Church, (6th & 2nd Ray), Co-Masons (1st & 7th Ray) and the ES, whose Rays > I am not privilege to know. Have you thought about asking a member? > Attending all three (LCC, Co-Mason, ES) was a way of refining the human vehicles, and > therefore, speeding their evolution and perhaps, providing seed groups for future Adepts or as > the dictionary defines it, "very skilled persons." Actually, I don't believe the seed groups come out of any the three organizations you mention. It looks like I'm going to have to write a post to explain myself a little better. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:43:29 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: The New Adepts Message-ID: <343FC8D1.7BA@sprynet.com> Recently, I have stated that it is my opinion that the reason the TS was formed was to speed the evolution of humanity as a whole, and to create an atmosphere where seed groups could be created that might become Adepts in the next millenium or two. As many have drawn incorrect conclusions from my statement, I figured that I should make myself clearer. First of all, some terminology: I am not using the term "Master" as the level of reverentialness in many TS groups has altered the meaning from master of an area of knowledge/skill to one who must be obeyed. Also, I use the term "Mahatma(s)" to refer to the specific group of Adepts with whom Blavatsky et al communicated. But they themselves said that they were not the only group of Adepts around (this is often forgotten; I think one of the problems with the St. Germaine controversy is that, if St. Germaine was an Adept, he was probably a member of a different group than the Mahatmas. Therefore the pro and anti's may BOTH be right). Finally, I'm going to be a little simplistic on my definition of "monad"; for the purpose of this, it will be defined as a consciousness that is self-aware, which is why you can have monads within monads, and, of course, the one Monad (which will be distinguished by the capitalization of the "M"). Now, how does one become an Adept? The TS concentrates on the concept of "chelas"; if the Adepts think you have the right potential, they will take you in as a student, and, if you can reach the right level of whatever is necessary, you can join them. But that leaves an interesting question: how did the groups start in the first place? And what makes them Adepts? Here are my theories; please don't send the men in white coats and butterfly nets. First of all, the process of evolution is slow and painstaking. Every time you're born in a new body, you have to re-learn a whole bunch of stuff over again. But if you don't die, there are some things you may never learn. One way around this is if a group could form a group monad. Members can enter or leave the group, but the group monad lives on, and can continue to evolve, provided that the individual members allow it to do so. The members are still individuals, however. They are not always attached to the group monad; if they were, then the evolution of the group monad would be blocked. There are, demonstrably, groups with at least the beginnings of such a group monad around today. A well-known example would be encounter groups, formed for the psychological health of the members. While the individuals have problems, the idea is that, by shedding their mental shields with each other, they can combine their strengths to help each other out. Now, to digress, for a moment, let's take a look at one of the major problems of our current time: super-bacteria. Before the discovery of anti-biotics, bacterial infection was a serious matter. People could and often did catch gangrene and/or die from what would be considered today to be simple infections. Eventually, three types of antibiotics were discovered, and it was figured that it would be decades before bacteria could develop a resistance to one type, and centuries before they could develop a resistance to two or more types. But this assumed that bacteria followed basic laws of genetics. Unfortunately, they do not. Bacteria have the ability to exchange genes with each other. Therefore, their physical evolution proceeds at a much more rapid pace than it would otherwise. If a bacterium is resistant to an antibiotic, then not only it and its descendents are resistant, but many of the other bacteria with which it comes in contact also gain that resistance. If a single bacterium picks up resistance to all three kinds of antibiotics, then it becomes just as dangerous as bacteria were in the 19th century and earlier. Going back to the subject at hand, if you consider the bacteria to be groups formed for spiritual advancement, if you have fixed groups, with little or no exchange of knowledge, then their ability to generate an Adept group is like the original estimates on how long it would take to develop a species of superbacteria. What is needed to allow Adepts to form more rapidly is for something akin to the bacteria: groups forming, failing, members going out, forming and reforming groups, until something clicks, and you have a group whose members can drop their defenses with each other completely, and form a group monad. If the group is sufficiently careful in letting new members in, this monad can evolve, and, given enough time, eventually become Adepts. At the time of the formation of the Theosophical Society, this kind of free-association was not possible. Religions were highly structured and stifling; scientific mechanistic atheism led nowhere, and Spiritualism, while it attracted the right kind of people, also attracted enough of the wrong kind of people to turn it into a dead end. Here comes Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society, which encouraged people to go out and find their own spiritual way, and gave a few hints here and there as to how to go about it. Theosophists encouraged others to break the strictures of their religions, and to seek the truth for themselves, whether or not they were members of the Society. Other groups came about, inspired by the TS. People started looking at their own religions differently. And new religions were formed. One example is the so-called neo-pagan movement in the United States. Originating from Gerald Gardner, who borrowed heavily from Theosophy, Co-Masonry and Thelema (the latter two being strongly influenced by Theosophy) with his Wiccan religion, people became encouraged to form their own religions. While Wicca settled into a traditional religious form, the other groups were much more volatile. Someone would start a group, others would join. They would send their members out to gain occult knowledge, and the members would share it with the group. Eventually, there would be strife within the group, and it would break up, but the individual members would go out to new groups, not unlike the genetic material in bacteria. And, rarely, a group clicked. They work together, forming a natural hierarchy based on competency; by dropping their mutual shields, there is no quarrel about who is in charge, because they KNOW who does what the best. New members are very carefully brought in, as it is very easy to disturb the delicate balance that exists. Old members seldom leave, so the size of the group remains stable (the group dies out more often than becoming oversized; when it becomes oversized, you end up with a mystery religion, which no longer evolves). And the monad of the group can evolve. It enables the members of the group to be able to, when connected to the group monad, reach that level of evolution, as well. As the group monad evolves, the members of the group have more and more difficulty in dealing with people outside the group, as they have to put up the shields which they can so comfortably lose when within the group. Members therefore don't like to talk about their group much, as attention to their group from the outside interferes with their ability to remain coherent. You don't here a lot from these groups, as a result, except from members who had to leave, or recruits who didn't make it. They may be entirely rumor, but there is enough information from independent sources to make that possibility unlikely. And these are the groups I am talking about when I mention groups that might become Adepts in the next millenium or two (the time frame is very shaky; it might be as little as a few decades, and might be as much as 10 millenia). So, in my opinion, the TS members are not the next Adepts; they are holding the door open so that the new Adepts can get through. But, in doing so, they increase the speed of the evolution of humanity as a whole, and, therefore, their own evolution as well. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:53:46 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: No "masses" here Message-ID: <199710111853.MAA21676@mailmx.micron.net> >>[Kym wrote:] I think you'd kiss anyone's ass if they paid you enough. . . >> >> > >[Chuck responded] Let me know when you pass the IQ test. IF they can score one >low enough And we have the nerve to mock the ignorance and lack of spirituality of the "masses". . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 22:24:57 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: RE: THE NEW ADEPTS Message-ID: BART : Recently, I have stated that it is my opinion that the reason the TS was formed was to speed the evolution of humanity as a whole, and to create an atmosphere where seed groups could be created that might become Adepts in the next millenium or two. As many have drawn incorrect conclusions from my statement, I figured that I should make myself clearer. First of all, some terminology: I am not using the term "Master" as the level of reverentialness in many TS groups has altered the meaning from master of an area of knowledge/skill to one who must be obeyed. Also, I use the term "Mahatma(s)" to refer to the specific group of Adepts with whom Blavatsky et al communicated. But they themselves said that they were not the only group of Adepts around (this is often forgotten; I think one of the problems with the St. Germaine controversy is that, if St. Germaine was an Adept, he was probably a member of a different group than the Mahatmas. Therefore the pro and anti's may BOTH be right). Finally, I'm going to be a little simplistic on my definition of "monad"; for the purpose of this, it will be defined as a consciousness that is self-aware, which is why you can have monads within monads, and, of course, the one Monad (which will be distinguished by the capitalization of the "M"). Now, how does one become an Adept? The TS concentrates on the concept of "chelas"; if the Adepts think you have the right potential, they will take you in as a student, and, if you can reach the right level of whatever is necessary, you can join them. But that leaves an interesting question: how did the groups start in the first place? And what makes them Adepts? Here are my theories; please don't send the men in white coats and butterfly nets. First of all, the process of evolution is slow and painstaking. Every time you're born in a new body, you have to re-learn a whole bunch of stuff over again. But if you don't die, there are some things you may never learn. One way around this is if a group could form a group monad. Members can enter or leave the group, but the group monad lives on, and can continue to evolve, provided that the individual members allow it to do so. The members are still individuals, however. They are not always attached to the group monad; if they were, then the evolution of the group monad would be blocked. There are, demonstrably, groups with at least the beginnings of such a group monad around today. A well-known example would be encounter groups, formed for the psychological health of the members. While the individuals have problems, the idea is that, by shedding their mental shields with each other, they can combine their strengths to help each other out. Recently, I have stated that it is my opinion that the reason the TS was formed was to speed the evolution of humanity as a whole, and to create an atmosphere where seed groups could be created that might become Adepts in the next millenium or two. As many have drawn incorrect conclusions from my statement, I figured that I should make myself clearer. First of all, some terminology: I am not using the term "Master" as the level of reverentialness in many TS groups has altered the meaning from master of an area of knowledge/skill to one who must be obeyed. Also, I use the term "Mahatma(s)" to refer to the specific group of Adepts with whom Blavatsky et al communicated. But they themselves said that they were not the only group of Adepts around (this is often forgotten; I think one of the problems with the St. Germaine controversy is that, if St. Germaine was an Adept, he was probably a member of a different group than the Mahatmas. Therefore the pro and anti's may BOTH be right). Finally, I'm going to be a little simplistic on my definition of "monad"; for the purpose of this, it will be defined as a consciousness that is self-aware, which is why you can have monads within monads, and, of course, the one Monad (which will be distinguished by the capitalization of the "M"). Now, how does one become an Adept? The TS concentrates on the concept of "chelas"; if the Adepts think you have the right potential, they will take you in as a student, and, if you can reach the right level of whatever is necessary, you can join them. But that leaves an interesting question: how did the groups start in the first place? And what makes them Adepts? Here are my theories; please don't send the men in white coats and butterfly nets. First of all, the process of evolution is slow and painstaking. Every time you're born in a new body, you have to re-learn a whole bunch of stuff over again. But if you don't die, there are some things you may never learn. One way around this is if a group could form a group monad. Members can enter or leave the group, but the group monad lives on, and can continue to evolve, provided that the individual members allow it to do so. The members are still individuals, however. They are not always attached to the group monad; if they were, then the evolution of the group monad would be blocked. There are, demonstrably, groups with at least the beginnings of such a group monad around today. A well-known example would be encounter groups, formed for the psychological health of the members. While the individuals have problems, the idea is that, by shedding their mental shields with each other, they can combine their strengths to help each other out. Now, to digress, for a moment, let's take a look at one of the major problems of our current time: super-bacteria. Before the discovery of anti-biotics, bacterial infection was a serious matter. People could and often did catch gangrene and/or die from what would be considered today Keith Price: Not to respond directly, because I am not accusing you, Bart, of anything. But this idea of group monad brings back question in the back of my mind, specifically the idea of group monad. We are told that there is a MANU, as seed father for each race. We are supposed to have a 5th race Manu. Then we have the unstated idea that racial groups may or may not have a group monad. Hitler of course, chose to think such a thing existed and took many ideas and vocabulary from the theosophical (with a small T) literature and speculations. I am open. I believe that the idea of monad(S) is kind of an oxymoron. How can you have individualites that return to one ROOT SOUCE Mulaprakriti? I like the image of the sparks of one Flame, but poetry can justify anything, believe me I know. I am really interested in seeing Seven Years In Tibet. I heard it wasn't really deeply spiritual, but the idea of a Nazi in Tibet... truth is stranger than fiction! Has anyone seen it? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:36:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Spiritualism Message-ID: In message <343EE95F.6E91@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> In message <199710100746.AAA39996@scv2.apple.com>, Tim Maroney >> writes >> >Spiritualism, the great under-acknowledged >> >ancestor of modern occultism and Theosophy. >> >> A big AMEN to that! > > I have read the works of Conan Doyle, the works of Erich "Harry >Houdini" Weiss, as well as the correspondence between them. The major >problem with the Spiritualist movement was that it was born in fraud, >and its rules almost explicitly invited frauds to join. And Greshem's >Law (sp?) holds. > > Bart Lidofsky I find it difficult to believe that the Spiritualist movement had rules. In the main, various people - "mediums" and genuine mediums, got on the bandwagon, but all too often with insufficient experience or ability to develop the necessary checks and balances. Having developed one kind of mediumistic ability over a long period, I once decided to try to ask Conan Doyle about this very question. I am reasonably sure that I got the right personality, as 1) he seemed to regard his interest in spiritualism as one of the least compelling subjects of interest, and 2) enthused greatly about his friendship with George Lansbury and their visits to the theatre. This was veridical for me, as I had not previously known of this connection at all, although I was aware of Lansbury as a politician. Those who wish to flee from me in horror should do so now ... Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:20:26 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710120037.UAA03979@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: The New Adepts > Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 1:46 PM > > So, in my opinion, the TS members are not the next Adepts; they are > holding the door open so that the new Adepts can get through. . . > > Bart Lidofsky Yeah, I've always wanted to be a doorstop. It's my life after lifetime's ambition. A. Safron :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:26:53 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Soul-infused Personalities Message-ID: <199710120037.UAA03986@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Soul-infused Personalities > Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 12:47 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > IMHO, that may have been true at one time. I believe there was a system set up that involved > > The Liberal Catholic Church, (6th & 2nd Ray), Co-Masons (1st & 7th Ray) and the ES, whose Rays > > I am not privilege to know. > > Have you thought about asking a member? I did not perceive it as being important to the piece as a whole. > > > Attending all three (LCC, Co-Mason, ES) was a way of refining the human vehicles, and > > therefore, speeding their evolution and perhaps, providing seed groups for future Adepts or as > > the dictionary defines it, "very skilled persons." > > Actually, I don't believe the seed groups come out of any the three > organizations you mention. > > It looks like I'm going to have to write a post to explain myself a > little better. > > Bart Lidofsky Actually, I didn't write that piece for you or anyone else. I wrote it for myself, to organize my viewpoint and thoughts about TSA before I leave the organization. If it doesn't come close to what you have in mind, then it is simply a different viewpoint. It is written from my own experiences and research. Thank you, A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:34:59 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: THE NEW ADEPTS Message-ID: <199710120037.UAA03995@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > Subject: RE: THE NEW ADEPTS > Date: Saturday, October 11, 1997 5:31 PM > > I am really interested in seeing Seven Years In Tibet. I heard it wasn't > really deeply spiritual, but the idea of a Nazi in Tibet... truth is stranger > than fiction! > Has anyone seen it? > Namaste > Keith Price The first time I saw a trailer for it on video ("Larry Flynt"), I wanted to see that movie. It just came out yesterday so you'd have to get a hold of someone who's paid big bucks in the theatre to get a personal review. As for myself, I thought the scenery inspired me and made me feel a kind of spirituality. And then there's Brad Pitt - with that much charisma and beauty in one person, who would be not be in awe of what spirit can do. I saw Barbara Wawa interview Pitt and he said he was kind of shocked himself when he found out the character had joined the Nazis - prior to his journey to Tibet. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:06:06 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Spiritualism Message-ID: <34404CAE.5926@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <343EE95F.6E91@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >> > >> In message <199710100746.AAA39996@scv2.apple.com>, Tim Maroney > >> writes > >> >Spiritualism, the great under-acknowledged > >> >ancestor of modern occultism and Theosophy. > >> > >> A big AMEN to that! > > > > I have read the works of Conan Doyle, the works of Erich "Harry > >Houdini" Weiss, as well as the correspondence between them. The major > >problem with the Spiritualist movement was that it was born in fraud, > >and its rules almost explicitly invited frauds to join. And Greshem's > >Law (sp?) holds. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > I find it difficult to believe that the Spiritualist movement had rules. Sorry; the Spiritualist Church. > Having developed one kind of mediumistic ability over a long period, I > once decided to try to ask Conan Doyle about this very question. I am > reasonably sure that I got the right personality, as 1) he seemed to > regard his interest in spiritualism as one of the least compelling > subjects of interest, and 2) enthused greatly about his friendship with > George Lansbury and their visits to the theatre. This was veridical for > me, as I had not previously known of this connection at all, although I > was aware of Lansbury as a politician. Just for your own information, for verification: I have seen sound films of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. To put it mildly, Nigel Bruce must have seen these, and based his performance as Dr. Watson on them. So if the Sir Arthur you met was anything like the Dr. Watson in the Basil Rathbone/Nigel Bruce films, you got the right spirit. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:52:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Crowleymas Message-ID: <971012115229_407867651@emout14.mail.aol.com> To everyone on the list: MERRY CROWLEYMAS!!!!!!!! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:04:15 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710121704.KAA07995@palrel1.hp.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > And, rarely, a group clicked. They work together, forming a natural > hierarchy based on competency; by dropping their mutual shields, there is no > quarrel about who is in charge, because they KNOW who does what the > best. I have long been interested in how a group can function effectively, given the nature of today's individualism and egotism. A group I was part of had some form of the above hierarchy, if you can call it that. And it worked well for 30-40 years. But several years after the founder died, some yet to be dealt with weaknesses of the members came to the foreground and were not mastered. Effectively the spirit within the group, or maybe you would call it the group monad, died. My tentative observation is that unless there is at least one strong selfless and ethical person in a group and an essential integrity in the membership, the people who rise to positions of leadership are often the aggressive self-serving ones, who lead to its effective downfall. Mother Theresa's group somewhat illustrates the point. By some accounts, she was a tough-as-nails but benevolent dictator. She attracted many sincere persons who shared and were stimulated by her ideals. I don't know what will happen now, but it will be interesting to see if an essentially good organization can have its founder's values survive after her death. If history is any guide, the Missionaries of Charity will within a generation weaken and stiltify. But my hope is that it will take much longer than a generation. A question, Bart. Have you really had experience with a group that matches your description? BTW, my tone is not a challenging or mocking one. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:45:40 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@azstarnet.com (Caldwell/Graye) Subject: THE ARMCHAIR TRAVELLER: HPB IN TIBET by Robert Gilbert Message-ID: <199710121845.LAA24856@mailhost.azstarnet.com> Students of HPB's life, writings & teachings may find an article by R.A. Gilbert of some interest. The title is: THE ARMCHAIR TRAVELLER: HPB IN TIBET. It can be found on the World Wide Web at: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/DIRECTORY/R.A.GILBERT/tibet1.txt It will be interesting to see if anyone can reasonably dispute Gilbert's findings and observations. Daniel H. Caldwell From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:46:13 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <34415335.2C7B@sprynet.com> Titus Roth wrote: > A question, Bart. Have you really had experience with a group that matches > your description? BTW, my tone is not a challenging or mocking one. Not as a member, and never as a recruit. But yes, I have had experience with groups that match my description (though the oldest group was not much more than a century old), and, from their own descriptions, I see the Mahatma's as a natural outgrowth of that sort of group. The key to such a group surviving is the ability of all to drop their egos at the door, and to be able to pick them up again on their way out. A failure of the former causes conflict, and a failure of the latter makes them unable to survive with the rest of the world. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:18:49 -0400 (EDT) From: CPickar965@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1279 Message-ID: <971012191626_134381813@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-11 15:52:28 EDT, you write: << And, rarely, a group clicked. They work together, forming a natural hierarchy based on competency; by dropping their mutual shields, there is no quarrel about who is in charge, because they KNOW who does what the best. New members are very carefully brought in, as it is very easy to disturb the delicate balance that exists. Old members seldom leave, so the size of the group remains stable (the group dies out more often than becoming oversized; when it becomes oversized, you end up with a mystery religion, which no longer evolves). And the monad of the group can evolve. It enables the members of the group to be able to, when connected to the group monad, reach that level of evolution, as well. As the group monad evolves, the members of the group have more and more difficulty in dealing with people outside the group, as they have to put up the shields which they can so comfortably lose when within the group. Members therefore don't like to talk about their group much, as attention to their group from the outside interferes with their ability to remain coherent. >> Bart, I find this an extremely reasonable and practical viewpoint. It seems to me we place to much emphasis on making a big hoop-la about the variety and role of esoteric or spiritually oriented groups. According to the idea of periodicity and the Law of Cycles it seems as if most groups are destined to fade away. Unless, of course, they can change their purpose to fill a need of the time. It seems as if the nature of things require adaption or dying out. Adaption implies effort. Unless the effort is made to adapt then clearly the cycle dies. (A cell that can't adapt, also, dies.) I think it takes all members of the nucleus to make the effort (more than just talk (strife)). So, based on that I tend to find your logic totally reasonable and squabbling about groups dying a moot point. Either do the work of adaption or you will die out. IMHO, the group kills itself thru an act of attrition. >>So, in my opinion, the TS members are not the next Adepts; they are holding the door open so that the new Adepts can get through. But, in doing so, they increase the speed of the evolution of humanity as a whole, and, therefore, their own evolution as well.>> Amen! But TS is one of many speeding things up. Even the groups that fade a way serve a purpose in the development of humanity. crp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:12:37 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Spiritualism Message-ID: In message <34404CAE.5926@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > Just for your own information, for verification: I have seen sound >films of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. To put it mildly, Nigel Bruce must have >seen these, and based his performance as Dr. Watson on them. So if the >Sir Arthur you met was anything like the Dr. Watson in the Basil >Rathbone/Nigel Bruce films, you got the right spirit. I am sure you are right about Nigel Bruce - the archetypal Dr. Watson for me! However, those I meet I do not "see" as I have learnt to make contact beyond the "seeing" levels. Kabbalistically, this is the Briatic level (lower face). Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:45:04 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1277 Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: "I now understand better your statement, having looked at the page (I really had no idea you meant going to a web search engine; I hope that explains my total confusion)." Aha, web search engine you call that - sorry I didn't know that but I hope may English will emprove with the time. I had no intention to caus a con- fusion - sorry. "Are you trying to say that I come off like a white supremicist?" Not at all! I am just trying to say that the situation you describe (racism in New York and the political actions and reactions) is ressembling to that what they promote on the "stormfront" web pages. We here in Switzerland have similar problems with racism - the only difference is that you can't read it in the news nor see it on TV because they hide it. You can only learn that talking to people directly. Many things stay hiden here you know, because of keeping the country's image clean so that they can go on washing money ... Still hoping to be realistically enough, Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:35:31 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1278 Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: > " iconical wino" (- wouw - beautyful). Thank you - I enjoyed them very > much and shall keep them for a while. "me. It was a take-off on a previous thread when I was talking about separating diamonds from garbage, and some responded that some people find garbage to be valuable, so I replied that I was speaking iconically." And I was just joking and playing with the words and somehow like that "iconically". I looked at the word "garbage" in a spiritual way and in this sense to me it doesn't exist. ..."Golden Rule to be "What you do to others, you are doing to yourself, and what you do to yourself you are doing to others." So do I - but to me this is more psychically than physically and starts with an intention that belongs to thinking. Just my opinion, Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:48:55 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1276 Message-ID: To Alan: "What you do to others, you are doing to yourself, and what you do to yourself you are doing to others." It was good for me, was it good for you? [joke] No joke, but Tipharet ... Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:23:58 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1279 Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: "Mind you, the overwhelming majority of these seed groups just self destruct." I consider this to be an interesting thought and would like to discuss the reasons for the self destructions of these seed groups. To A. Safron: "I think you got Adept fever" ... As a matter of fact, how high is the risk of infection? "Krishnamurti" - " the cherry on top of the banana split" Ooohhh what a picture! Absolutely great - I like it very much especially because I always immensly disliked this Krishanmurti as well as a cherry on top of a banana split. Brrr. Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 10:39:02 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: TS as seed pod Message-ID: <199710131439.KAA21106@leo.vsla.edu> Following Bart's metaphor about the role of the TS in relation to "seeds" of future adeptship: I think there's vastly more centrifugal than centripetal force in the Theosophical Movement. Which means many more ex-members than members, and many members focusing their energies more outside the organizations than in them. HPB was such a dharma-hopper herself (legends notwithstanding) that she left that imprint on the movement. It has attracted a truly impressive group of adherents, but the really good ones, e.g. Ouspensky, Steiner, David-Neel, Yeats, Dharmapala, Subba Row, Mohini Chatterji, Krishnamurti, tend to move on after a while. Their lives are enriched by their time with Theosophy, but the movement seems unable to accept enrichment from them. The TS natal chart, which we've discussed before, indicates a meeting of irresistible forces and immovable objects, with all but one planet in fixed signs and every one of them in either a Grand Cross or T-square. Great energy to attract seekers in, but very little ability to hold on to them or provide a comfortable and secure place in which to unfold their potential. Instead, it spews them out because those in power are the least adventuresome of the lot who have passed through. Most people who come into Theosophy aren't looking for an orthodoxy, but they find that the longtimers who run the shows are looking for nothing else. So the paths diverge. Which suggests to me that the movement in its early days was like a seed pod that exploded, sending a certain kind of seeker/discoverer to all corners of the earth and impregnating many religions and cultures with its energies. The TS is more notable for those who have left it than for those who have stayed. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:02:30 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: TS as seed pod Message-ID: <199710131904.PAA01892@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: K. Paul Johnson > Subject: TS as seed pod > Date: Monday, October 13, 1997 9:40 AM > > Following Bart's metaphor about the role of the TS in relation > to "seeds" of future adeptship: I think there's vastly more > centrifugal than centripetal force in the Theosophical > Movement. As always, a superb post, KPJ. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:34:32 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710131934.MAA02792@palrel1.hp.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > The key to such a group surviving is the ability of all to drop their > egos at the door, and to be able to pick them up again on their way out. > A failure of the former causes conflict, and a failure of the latter > makes them unable to survive with the rest of the world. I take dropping the ego to mean not letting it be center stage. What do you see as the magic ingredients making that possible? There will always be contesting persons attracted to any group. That seems to be a law. Out of every 12 will be a Judas. And everyone will have a Judas in them. How do you handle it? How do you appeal to the higher ideals of people rather than letting their lower natures take root? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:36:45 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: TS as seed pod Message-ID: <199710131936.MAA03836@palrel1.hp.com> "K. Paul Johnson" > Instead, it [the TS] spews them out because those in power are the least > adventuresome of the lot who have passed through. Most people who come into > Theosophy aren't looking for an orthodoxy, but they find that the longtimers > who run the shows are looking for nothing else. So the paths diverge. Too familiar a phenomenon. Is it inevitable? How can you delay it or prevent it? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:35:57 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1279 Message-ID: <3442A24D.7548@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > To Bart Lidofsky: "Mind you, the overwhelming majority of these > seed groups just self destruct." > > I consider this to be an interesting thought and would like to discuss > the reasons for the self destructions of these seed groups. The reason is trivial: Ego conflict without a binding tradition. > "Krishnamurti" - " the cherry on top of the banana split" > > Ooohhh what a picture! Absolutely great - I like it very much especially > because I always immensly disliked this Krishanmurti as well as a cherry > on top of a banana split. Brrr. Well, a large chunk of the Society did go bananas over him... Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:42:23 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <3442A3CF.7DB4@sprynet.com> Titus Roth wrote: > > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > The key to such a group surviving is the ability of all to drop their > > egos at the door, and to be able to pick them up again on their way out. > > A failure of the former causes conflict, and a failure of the latter > > makes them unable to survive with the rest of the world. > > I take dropping the ego to mean not letting it be center stage. What do you > see as the magic ingredients making that possible? Other way around. It is the ingredient that makes magic possible. > There will always be contesting persons attracted to any group. That seems to > be a law. Out of every 12 will be a Judas. And everyone will have a Judas in > them. How do you handle it? How do you appeal to the higher ideals of people > rather than letting their lower natures take root? As I stated, once a group monad is formed, a system, eventually becoming a "chela" system, must be devised to avoid traitors. For the group monad that I described to be formed in the first place, there cannot be any traitors. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:01:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: TS as seed pod Message-ID: In message <199710131439.KAA21106@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >The TS is more >notable for those who have left it than for those who have >stayed. Modesty forbids comment ... Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:04:29 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710140204.UAA21570@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: > As I stated, once a group monad is formed, a system, eventually >becoming a "chela" system, must be devised to avoid traitors. For the >group monad that I described to be formed in the first place, there >cannot be any traitors. Some "traitors," as history shows, have been invaluable to the progression of the world's inhabitants. What exactly do you consider a "traitor" to be? And, what "system" would you recommend to guarantee that "there cannot be any traitors?" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:26:37 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: The New Adepts Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: "The key to such a group surviving is the ability of all to drop their egos at the door, and to be able to pick them up again on their way out." According to my little experience I would n e v e r "drop my ego at the door" of a group considering this to be too dangerous. Each group (whether spiritual, religious or simply one to share jokes) has a collective unconsiousness which of course raises positive "energies" but also does the contrary and especially here my self needs its ego for protection. "A failure of the former causes conflict, and a failure of the latter makes them unable to survive with the rest of the world." If "a failure of the former causes conflict" a natural form of dependency changed into dependence and if "they are unable to survive with the rest of the world" we have an interdependence. Dependence and inter- dependence are much more common today than the natural form of dependency and spiritual/religious groups often show its symptoms. Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:44:11 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: re: Disliking K Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971014114411.012d485c@mail.eden.com> At 10:26 AM 10/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >"Krishnamurti" - " the cherry on top of the banana split" > >Ooohhh what a picture! Absolutely great - I like it very much especially >because I always immensly disliked this Krishanmurti as well as a cherry >on top of a banana split. Brrr. > >Nicole Suter Very interesting observation. Just curious to know why you always immensely disliked K. BTW have you visited the maillist listening-l which discusses K? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:41:10 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: TS as seed pod Message-ID: <199710141244.IAA16283@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Re: TS as seed pod > Date: Monday, October 13, 1997 7:23 PM > > In message <199710131439.KAA21106@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" > writes > >The TS is more > >notable for those who have left it than for those who have > >stayed. > > Modesty forbids comment ... I guess I'm going to be joining the REAL elite group. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:44:13 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710141244.IAA16288@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: kymsmith@micron.net > Subject: Re: The New Adepts > Date: Monday, October 13, 1997 9:05 PM > > Some "traitors," as history shows, have been invaluable to the progression > of the world's inhabitants. What exactly do you consider a "traitor" to be? > And, what "system" would you recommend to guarantee that "there cannot be > any traitors?" > Easy. If he sez something against the party line - shoot him. A. Safron Pardon moi, for answering Bart's question. The floor is now his. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:04:35 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Power of the Internet Message-ID: <199710141305.JAA19256@newman.concentric.net> I know Doss will love this: Recently, a popular science fiction show named Babylon 5 was dropped by its syndicated network.(UPN) It would have been its last season anyway, since the writer had only planned 5 years worth of the serial. Well, the show was picked up by TNT on cable. Joe Straczynski, writer and creator of Bab5, passed the word via newsgroups and mailing lists that we all email Turner and tell him that we are all ecstatic. I joined the throng in the cyberrush and got a very nice email back from TNT. They are also planning Babylon 5 movies now, too, now that they know they have a rabid (like me) fan base. Just another example of the power of the internet. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:36:05 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: digest 1279 Message-ID: To CPickar: "as they have to put up the shields which they can so comfortably lose when within the group." Could you please help me here - I have difficulties feeling comfortable whithout shields and loosing shields sometimes makes me feel terribly afraid. You seem to know people who can loose them and feel comfortably. Maybe you wish to learn to me, what makes them feel so comfortable without shields? "Unless the effort is made to adapt then clearly the cycle dies. (A cell that can't adapt, also, dies.)" I agree totally with you here. I am personally very fond of nature and consider nature to be a great "tool" things can be compared with. Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:44:47 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <3443774F.520F@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > > To Bart Lidofsky: "The key to such a group surviving is the ability of all > to drop their egos at the door, and to be able to pick them up again on > their way out." > > According to my little experience I would n e v e r "drop my ego > at the door" of a group considering this to be too dangerous. Each > group (whether spiritual, religious or simply one to share jokes) has > a collective unconsiousness which of course raises positive "energies" > but also does the contrary and especially here my self needs its ego for > protection. This is why a group where the danger does not exist is so rare. And about the only way that a significant number of these groups can form over the same period of time is if there is a tremendous amount of cross pollenization, until the right group meets. From extrapolating from the Mahatma Letters, a group that makes it all the way only gets formed once every few centuries; it is my opinion that the knowledge and concepts publicized by the TS has greatly speeded up this process. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:36:56 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <34437578.1B42@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Bart wrote: > > > As I stated, once a group monad is formed, a system, eventually > >becoming a "chela" system, must be devised to avoid traitors. For the > >group monad that I described to be formed in the first place, there > >cannot be any traitors. > > Some "traitors," as history shows, have been invaluable to the progression > of the world's inhabitants. What exactly do you consider a "traitor" to be? > And, what "system" would you recommend to guarantee that "there cannot be > any traitors?" A) A "traitor", in this case, is a member of the group whose actions cause the deterioration of the group monad. B) I am not an Adept, nor well on the road to becoming one. The Mahatmas, however, give some hints as to how their "system" works. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:51:02 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Power of the Internet Message-ID: <344378C6.60B8@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > I know Doss will love this: > > Recently, a popular science fiction show named > Babylon 5 was dropped by its syndicated network.(UPN) > It would have been its last season anyway, since the > writer had only planned 5 years worth of the serial. Mike Straczynski had planned a 5 year storyline, with a beginning, a middle, and most definitely an end. This is the end of the 4th season; there is still a year's worth of continuity in there. There are some strong Theosophical themes in the show; it is extremely popular at TSA headquarters in Wheaton. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:57:07 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: digest 1279 Message-ID: <34437A33.783F@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > > To CPickar: "as they have to put up the shields which they can so > comfortably lose when within the group." > > Could you please help me here - I have difficulties feeling comfortable > whithout shields and loosing shields sometimes makes me feel terribly > afraid. You seem to know people who can loose them and feel comfortably. > Maybe you wish to learn to me, what makes them feel so comfortable > without shields? Although the question is not addressed to me, I would like to pose a answer. Nobody can safely drop their shields with everybody; note that the Mahatmas only did it with other Mahatmas. To drop your shields with somebody, that other person must be highly compatible with you, and must also be dropping his/her shields. It is extraordinarily rare that a group of people who can do that meet each other in a context where they might even try. It is my belief that, thanks largely to the ideas brought to the West by the TS, an atmosphere of encouragement for such groups to form has been created. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:12:42 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: TS as seed pod Message-ID: To K. Paul Johnson: "... aren't looking for an orthodoxy, but they find that the longtimers who run the shows are looking for nothing else." It seems that you don't like orthodoxy and neither do I and never did - to me orthodoxy doesn't allow creativity and this is against the natural laws. Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:04:06 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@azstarnet.com (Caldwell/Graye) Subject: Re: TS as seed pod Message-ID: <199710141604.JAA25656@mailhost.azstarnet.com> >To K. Paul Johnson: "... aren't looking for an orthodoxy, but they find >that the longtimers who run the shows are looking for nothing else." >It seems that you don't like orthodoxy and neither do I and never did - >to me orthodoxy doesn't allow creativity and this is against the natural >laws. >Nicole Suter >From my sociological studies, virtually all "organizations" have an "orthodoxy". Groups and institutions---whether theosophical, religious, occult, academic, scientific, etc. ,etc. maintain a "status quo" and are "conservative" by nature. At different periods in the "life" of an organization, there may be dynamic, innovative, liberal "activity" but for the most part organizations tend (over time) to maintain the status quo. As such, there is always an "antagonism" between those in the organization who want to maintain this status quo, and those who want change, etc. in the organization. At the founding of a group, there may be a very liberal, innovative attitude among the members, but as the organization grows and with the passage of time, there is the tendency toward the "status quo", etc. Usually those in charge, the "leaders", are seen as being "conservative" in their thinking, actions, etc. This is a very poor description on my part of this seemingly "universal" group dynamics. Of course, there may be exceptions to the rule. I have spent alot of time during the last ten years studying two organizations: The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of the Claims of the Paranormal and The Worldwide Church of God. A book could be written on how these two organizations have dealt with this above mentioned tendency to maintain the "status quo". Daniel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:36:44 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1282 Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: "The reason is trivial: Ego conflict without a binding tradition." Trivial - does it mean it has tree parts? Could you please explain what kind of ege-conflict you mean? What kind of binding tradition are you speaking about? I would be thankful for your help. "> I take dropping the ego to mean not letting it be center stage. What do you > see as the magic ingredients making that possible? Other way around. It is the ingredient that makes magic possible." I do not understand how you mean that. Could you please explain how an ingredient makes magic possible? To ...doss: "Just curious to know why you always immensely disliked K. " Honestly I think due to a very deep instinct in myself which seems to show up every time I come accross dependence. It showed up for the first time when I had (didn't want it all - but parents wanted it and I was just 14) to become a confirmation candiate. I am still laughing about the following scene - the vicar was standing in front of me very seriously mighty, dominant and asked "do you believe in God?" and I said "no" (because I belived in nature and nature was God to me not that kind of dominant "father" they selled at church) "well" the vicar said "do you then at least believe in Jesus Christ?" and I answered "I told you that I don't believe in God, so why should I believe in his son?" That was too much for the poor vicar and he forbade me to come to the religion class giving me time to stay outside in nature and have fun. "BTW have you visited the maillist listening-l which discusses K?" As you read above I have gone through some changes in my life which came from inside, from experience, from learning, from beeing interested in something. There are so many things I enjoy or learn daily, which I can discuss, which I have to think about and I am sorry but I lack the time to also discuss "K" and I am also much more interested discussing what other people think and feel than discussing the opinion of a "K" which was eventually written by "XYZ" (just guessing). But thank you for offering it. Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:23:14 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710141723.KAA04855@palrel1.hp.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > For the group monad that I described to be formed in the first place, there > cannot be any traitors. I doubt this will ever happen. Even in the most advanced groups. (For example, the 12 disciples.) kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > Some "traitors," as history shows, have been invaluable to the progression > of the world's inhabitants. What exactly do you consider a "traitor" to be? > And, what "system" would you recommend to guarantee that "there cannot be > any traitors?" Good point. Though there are genuine Judas's, it is all too easy to project one's own stuff on another person. One should be doubly and triply cautious about doing that, but not naive about dangerous persons. Nicole Suter wrote: > According to my little experience I would n e v e r "drop my ego at the > door" of a group considering this to be too dangerous. Each group (whether > spiritual, religious or simply one to share jokes) has a collective > unconsiousness which of course raises positive "energies" but also does the > contrary and especially here my self needs its ego for protection. Yes, that is why I decided to re-interpret Bart's "dropping the ego". Certainly one cannot and should not get rid of the ego, which when illumined becomes the doer for the Self. To use perhaps less ambiguous language ... the selfish uses of the 3 lower chakras seem to be the downfall of charismatic people in groups: uses of money, sex and power in service to the ego; the most dangerous of which is the last. > If "a failure of the former causes conflict" a natural form of dependency > changed into dependence and if "they are unable to survive with the > rest of the world" we have an interdependence. Dependence and inter- > dependence are much more common today than the natural form of > dependency and spiritual/religious groups often show its symptoms. Yes, wrong use of power is to take away another's volition, subtly or overtly. It happens all too often. Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Although the question is not addressed to me, I would like to pose a > answer. Nobody can safely drop their shields with everybody; note that > the Mahatmas only did it with other Mahatmas. To drop your shields with > somebody, that other person must be highly compatible with you, and must > also be dropping his/her shields. It is extraordinarily rare that a > group of people who can do that meet each other in a context where they > might even try. It is my belief that, thanks largely to the ideas > brought to the West by the TS, an atmosphere of encouragement for such > groups to form has been created. It depends on what is meant by "dropping shields". If it is extending oneself with the possibility of one's open hand being slapped that is necessary, but not something I would do with malicious people. If it is relinquishing one's will, of course that is dangerous. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:49:32 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710141749.LAA03498@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: > > B) I am not an Adept, nor well on the road to becoming one. The >Mahatmas, however, give some hints as to how their "system" works. > I know of what you speak of here - it's just that I was hoping you weren't as confused about their "hints" as I am. Maybe one has to be an Adept, as you mention, to understand the "system?" Yet, if one is an Adept when they figure out the "system," why have a "system" at all? Go figure. Thanks for trying to answer anyway. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:09:01 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1282 Message-ID: <3443A72D.677C@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > > To Bart Lidofsky: "The reason is trivial: Ego conflict without a binding > tradition." > > Trivial - does it mean it has tree parts? Could you please explain what kind > of ege-conflict you mean? What kind of binding tradition are you speaking > about? I would be thankful for your help. Trivial, as in near-obvious, simple, ot requiring much thought. Essentially, in these groups, two people have a disagreement as to what to do, and neither will back down. Members pick one of 3 sides: 1) The first person is right, 2) The second person is right, 3) They're BOTH wrong, and should shut up. If the group has a tradition, then members have something to hold to, and use it to get past the fight. With no tradition, the group has no particular reason to stay together, and falls apart. > > "> I take dropping the ego to mean not letting it be center stage. What do you > > see as the magic ingredients making that possible? > > Other way around. It is the ingredient that makes magic possible." > > I do not understand how you mean that. Could you please explain how > an ingredient makes magic possible? The high level of predictability of profits in casinos proves that psychic ability/magic is almost certainly not based in ego. Therefore, to properly utilize magic, one must be able to put one's ego aside. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:18:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <971014133909_1465194532@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-14 08:47:27 EDT, you write: >Easy. If he sez something against the party line - shoot him. > >A. Safron Allah be praised for Kevlar! Chuck the Bulletproof Vested Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:08:22 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Power of the Internet Message-ID: <199710141909.PAA28157@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Power of the Internet > Date: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 8:53 AM > > A. Safron wrote: > > > > I know Doss will love this: > > > > Recently, a popular science fiction show named > > Babylon 5 was dropped by its syndicated network.(UPN) > > It would have been its last season anyway, since the > > writer had only planned 5 years worth of the serial. > > Mike Straczynski had planned a 5 year storyline, with a beginning, a > middle, and most definitely an end. This is the end of the 4th season; > there is still a year's worth of continuity in there. > > There are some strong Theosophical themes in the show; it is extremely > popular at TSA headquarters in Wheaton. > > Bart Lidofsky For you, Bart, or anyone else interested I have the information available for getting on JMS's personal mailing list where he converses with his fans daily - at the least that's what he was doing the last time I was subscribed. We had some nice chats and then I logged off to spend more time writing my own stuff. As for where he gets his material, it's a mystery. He stated in a TV Guide interview that he is an atheist. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:28:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Digest 1279 Message-ID: <971014132618_1344437151@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-14 05:43:26 EDT, you write: >Well, a large chunk of the Society did go bananas over him... > > Bart Lidofsky The best laugh I've had this week. Thanks. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:57:48 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <3443CEBC.4C7A@sprynet.com> Titus Roth wrote: > > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > For the group monad that I described to be formed in the first place, there > > cannot be any traitors. > > I doubt this will ever happen. Even in the most advanced groups. (For example, > the 12 disciples.) The 12 disciples were students of a total leader; there was still plenty of room for ego conflict between the individual disciples. And, of course, I doubt that there are any group breakers (a better term than "traitors") among the Mahatmas. > > Some "traitors," as history shows, have been invaluable to the progression > > of the world's inhabitants. What exactly do you consider a "traitor" to be? > > And, what "system" would you recommend to guarantee that "there cannot be > > any traitors?" > > Good point. Though there are genuine Judas's, it is all too easy to project > one's own stuff on another person. One should be doubly and triply cautious > about doing that, but not naive about dangerous persons. Remmeber, when a traitor causes progression, it is because the group NEEDS shaking up. Remember, they laughed at the Wright Brothers, but they also laughed at the Marx Brothers. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:30:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <971014134425_-1462131417@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-14 09:51:25 EDT, you write: > A) A "traitor", in this case, is a member of the group whose actions >cause the deterioration of the group monad. > Oh boy oh boy oh boy!!! (Jumping up a down clapping hands like Barney) I've never been a traitor before. Do I get to sell the secrets of the Adepts to the Bilderburgers? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:20:41 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Theosophical Themes Message-ID: <199710150021.UAA13385@cliff.concentric.net> In Babylon5 Of course there are theosophical themes: The planets they occasionally visit are sometimes called "Globes". Jakar (spelling?) was put in "chains" by the emperor. Londo can't leave the bar until everyone has "another round!" --Chuck E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:39:34 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: TS as seed pod Message-ID: In message <199710141244.IAA16283@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >> Modesty forbids comment ... > >I guess I'm going to be joining the REAL elite group. You may say that, but *I* couldn't possibly comment. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:41:06 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: In message <34437578.1B42@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >I am not an Adept, nor well on the road to becoming one. Better luck next life! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:54:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <9OsO6nA1QBR0Ew2Q@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <971014134425_-1462131417@emout06.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Do I get to sell the secrets of the Adepts to the Bilderburgers? Only for a large fee (payable to me) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:15:46 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Digest 1282 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971015011546.00670548@mail.eden.com> At 12:41 PM 10/14/97 -0400, you wrote: > >To ...doss: "Just curious to know why you always immensely disliked K. " > >Honestly I think due to a very deep instinct in myself which seems to >show up every time I come accross dependence. It showed up for the >first time when I had (didn't want it all - but parents wanted it and I was >just 14) to become a confirmation candiate. I am still laughing about >the following scene - the vicar was standing in front of me very seriously >mighty, dominant and asked "do you believe in God?" and I said "no" >(because I belived in nature and nature was God to me not that kind of >dominant "father" they selled at church) "well" the vicar said "do you >then at least believe in Jesus Christ?" and I answered "I told you that I >don't believe in God, so why should I believe in his son?" That was >too much for the poor vicar and he forbade me to come to the religion >class giving me time to stay outside in nature and have fun. > >"BTW have you visited the maillist listening-l which discusses K?" > >As you read above I have gone through some changes in my life which >came from inside, from experience, from learning, from beeing interested >in something. There are so many things I enjoy or learn daily, which I >can discuss, which I have to think about and I am sorry but I lack the >time to also discuss "K" and I am also much more interested discussing >what other people think and feel than discussing the opinion of a "K" >which was eventually written by "XYZ" (just guessing). But thank you >for offering it. > >Nicole Suter > It appears there is some confusion here (please help clarify!). We have the K who was hearlded as the World Teacher's vehicle and an organization was set up === Order of the Star of the East and the apostles were all appointed and everyone was waiting. The only person who said nothing about the coming of the world teacher was K himself. Then we have the K after the "Truth is a Pathless Land" statement and took a stand that each has to find out Truth (or whatever we want to call) and no organization, no leader, no system, no belief or anything of that sort is going to help anyone searching for Truth. Many agree with him and many do not. When he took the revolutionary unexpected stand, many agreed with him and many did not. It looks like your current thinking is somewhat on the lines of the post "Truth is a Pathless Land" K. Correct me if I am wrong. Thought I should share the above point of view. BTW, I am glad at least no one has asked me when I was growing up whether I belive in God with upper or lower case G. ........mkr > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:51:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: In message <199710141749.LAA03498@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Yet, if one is an Adept when they >figure out the "system," why have a "system" at all? When the temple is built, the tools [system] are set aside. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:55:51 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710150355.VAA04459@mailmx.micron.net> Alan wrote: >kymsmith@micron.net writes >>Yet, if one is an Adept when they >>figure out the "system," why have a "system" at all? > >When the temple is built, the tools [system] are set aside. Ye are so wise! BUT, - what I meant was: why do we need a "system" to keep out "traitors" if all those in the group are supposed to be Adepts? If it were possible for a "fake Adept" to worm his/her way into the group - wouldn't they eventually fall away due to their spiritual "immaturity" - and, if they didn't - like Bart said - it would be because the group needed a rattling. I don't know - Bart brought up this "system" thing to keep out "traitors" and I started thinking about it, but then Bart said that sometimes "traitors" are needed in a group, and my brain flashed "Tilt!," but now Bart won't further clarify his original point of discussion. And I think Titus knows something I don't, and should. What do I do now, Oh, Fair and Free-haired One of Cornwall? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:15:07 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1282 Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: "This is why a group where the danger does not exist is so rare. And about the only way that a significant number of these groups can form over the same period of time is if there is a tremendous amount of cross pollenization, until the right group meets." According to my opinion a group without danger does not exist at all. And I think that's okay. Where there is a group there is danger. "From extrapolating from the Mahatma Letters, a group that makes it all the way only gets formed once every few centuries" I have never read that - where do you have if from? "Nobody can safely drop their shields with everybody; note that the Mahatmas only did it with other Mahatmas. To drop your shields with somebody, that other person must be highly compatible with you, and must also be dropping his/her shields." I agree 100 % here, except that I don't know what the Mahatmas did because I have never met one. Have you? "It is extraordinarily rare that a group of people who can do that meet each other in a context where they might even try. It is my belief that, thanks largely to the ideas brought to the West by the TS, an atmosphere of encouragement for such groups to form has been created." I can not understand you here. Why does it always have to be groups? Nicole Suter From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:47:42 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1283 Message-ID: To Daniel re TS as a seed pot: ... "I have spent alot of time during the last ten years studying two organizations: The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of the Claims of the Paranormal and The Worldwide Church of God. A book could be written on how these two organizations have dealt with this above mentioned tendency to maintain the "status quo"." Thank you for all you wrote to me. I agree 100 % and sometimes also watch a bit what the are doing to maintain the "status quo". When I like to watch politics of Europe I go to the web search engine and search for "vatican". But to me "to maintain the status quo" still blocks creativity and it often feels that people doing it are kind of half death. Somehow that world is rouled 180 degree the wrong way around. Just my opinion. To Titus re The new adepts: "Yes, that is why I decided to re-interpret Bart's "dropping the ego". I guessed so and tried to help a little. "Certainly one cannot and should not get rid of the ego, which when illumined becomes the doer for the Self. To use perhaps less ambiguous language ... the selfish uses of the 3 lower chakras seem to be the downfall of charismatic people in groups: uses of money, sex and power in service to the ego; the most dangerous of which is the last." Again - you speak out of the very root of my heart! "Yes, wrong use of power is to take away another's volition, subtly or overtly. It happens all too often." I almost think if it doesn't you have found the exception. "It depends on what is meant by "dropping shields" ..." I tried to use Bart's expression in a more psychological way. I tried to look up the English expression for the German specialist term "Grenzen" but wasn't successful. It is relatet to personal limits. If you know the correct expression I would be thankful for help. To Bart Lidofsky re Digest 1282: "Essentially, in these groups, two people have a disagreement as to what to do, and neither will back down. Members pick one of 3 sides: 1) The first person is right, 2) The secon person is right, 3) They're BOTH wrong, and should shut up. If the group has a tradition, then members have something to hold to, and use it to get past the fight. With no tradition, the group has no particular reason to stay together, and falls apart." Thank you for the explanations. I have another question - what does happen if the BOTH are right? To me that what you describe as tradition feels more like a power struggle in its destructive form due to old not resolved conflicts. What do you think about this? "The high level of predictability of profits in casinos proves that psychic ability/magic is almost certainly not based in ego. Therefore, to properly utilize magic, one must be able to put one's ego aside" I don't think this is possible to put one's ego aside Bart. To ......mkr: "We have the K who was hearlded as the World Teacher's vehicle and an organization was set up === Order of the Star of the East and the apostles were all appointed and everyone was waiting. The only person who said nothing about the coming of the world teacher was K himself. Then we have the K after the "Truth is a Pathless Land" statement and took a stand that each has to find out Truth (or whatever we want to call) and no organization, no leader, no system, no belief or anything of that sort is going to help anyone searching for Truth. Many agree with him and many do not. When he took the revolutionary unexpected stand, many agreed with him and many did not." Hi,hi, there are two cherries on top of the banana split now ... "It looks like your current thinking is somewhat on the lines of the post "Truth is a Pathless Land" K. Correct me if I am wrong. I don't think that thruth is a pathless land but that there are as many pathes to thruth as there are different human beeings and that some pathes s e e m to ressemble to each other ... "Thought I should share the above point of view." Maybe you wish to explain why ... "BTW, I am glad at least no one has asked me when I was growing up whether I belive in God with upper or lower case G." It pleases me when you feel glad. To all: I shall be away for a few days now - so my answers will come later. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:48:21 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <3444F3D5.876@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Do I get to sell the secrets of the Adepts to the Bilderburgers? Can you go to Adeptor's prison for that? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:58:08 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1282 Message-ID: <3444F620.6B21@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > Then we have the K after the "Truth is a Pathless Land" statement and took a > stand that each has to find out Truth (or whatever we want to call) and no > organization, no leader, no system, no belief or anything of that sort is > going to help anyone searching for Truth. Many agree with him and many do > not. When he took the revolutionary unexpected stand, many agreed with him > and many did not. He never said that organizations, leaders, systems, beliefs etc. didn't HELP; he simply said that they won't take you all the way there. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:14:47 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <3444FA07.28B@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > BUT, - what I meant was: why do we need a "system" to keep out "traitors" if > all those in the group are supposed to be Adepts? If it were possible for a > "fake Adept" to worm his/her way into the group - wouldn't they eventually > fall away due to their spiritual "immaturity" - and, if they didn't - like > Bart said - it would be because the group needed a rattling. I am talking about during the several centuries it takes for the group monad to advance to a point where the individuals in the group can be called Adepts. > I don't know - Bart brought up this "system" thing to keep out "traitors" > and I started thinking about it, but then Bart said that sometimes > "traitors" are needed in a group, and my brain flashed "Tilt!," but now Bart > won't further clarify his original point of discussion. And I think Titus > knows something I don't, and should. Actually, I didn't bring it up; someone asked me how it was done. That person was also the one who used the term, "traitors"; I was probably mistaken to continue to use that term. I said that I did not know the particulars, and have little doubt that a lot of the groups, even when formed, may die during the maturing process. The only specific system of which I know anything is the one described by the Mahatmas, which obviously worked for them. All I have been told otherwise is that the groups are extremely careful about who they let in. I also stated that any group that gathers about a single leader cannot possibly evolve into Adepts, because the natural hierarchy is blocked by the in-place hierarchy. It is my opinion that the group has to start out as a democracy for a natural hierarchy (a hierarchy based on ability) to form. Note, for example the Mahatmas reportedly did not believe that the Theosophical Society would succeed in performing the task that it was supposed to perform, but they let M. and K.H. go ahead with it anyway, probably on the theory, "it can't hoit". Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:34:56 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1282 Message-ID: <3444FEC0.6C86@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > "From extrapolating from the Mahatma Letters, a group that makes it all the > way only gets formed once every few centuries" > > I have never read that - where do you have if from? In between the lines; I DID say, "extrapolating". From things like explaining what their other duties were, their mentioning of other groups, etc. gave me a feeling for on the order of how many other groups of Adepts there were, and taking that over the history of the human race. At one company where I worked, in New York City, potential employees had to answer satisfactorily: Without looking in any research material, how many piano tuners are there in the city of Chicago. I got within a factor of two of the correct answer (and the job). > "Nobody can safely drop their shields with everybody; note that > the Mahatmas only did it with other Mahatmas. To drop your shields with > somebody, that other person must be highly compatible with you, and must > also be dropping his/her shields." > > I agree 100 % here, except that I don't know what the Mahatmas did because > I have never met one. Have you? That comes from more of the writings by and about them; descriptions of their feelings on working in the outside world, descriptions of their relations with other Mahatmas, descriptions of what it is to be a Mahatma, etc. > "It is extraordinarily rare that a group of people who can do that meet each > other in a context where they might even try. It is my belief that, thanks > largely to the ideas brought to the West by the TS, an atmosphere of > encouragement for such groups to form has been created." > > I can not understand you here. Why does it always have to be groups? If a human being could become immortal, then that person might be able to do it him or herself, given several centuries. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:54:59 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1283 Message-ID: <34450373.7A85@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > To Bart Lidofsky re Digest 1282: "Essentially, in these groups, two people > have a disagreement as to what to do, and neither will back down. > Members pick one of 3 sides: 1) The first person is right, 2) The secon > person is right, 3) They're BOTH wrong, and should shut up. If the group > has a tradition, then members have something to hold to, and use it to get > past the fight. With no tradition, the group has no particular reason to stay > together, and falls apart." > > Thank you for the explanations. I have another question - what does > happen if the BOTH are right? An unfortunate mistake. > To me that what you describe as tradition feels more like a power struggle > in its destructive form due to old not resolved conflicts. What do you > think about this? The tradition is what keeps people from breaking off in the case of an unsolvable squabble. The idea is that the group can eventually be brought back to the traditions, and the disgruntled member can work to bring the group back. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:16:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <971015191504_-2012617270@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-15 13:21:41 EDT, you write: > Can you go to Adeptor's prison for that? > > Bart Lidofsky > Only if I get caught! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:59:21 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Digest 1283 Message-ID: In message , Nicole Suter writes >I tried >to look up the English expression for the German specialist term >"Grenzen" but wasn't successful. It is relatet to personal limits. My dictionary says: grenzen: to border upon; to adjoin. Grenze: frointier, boundary, limit. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:51:26 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: In message <199710150355.VAA04459@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Alan wrote: > >>kymsmith@micron.net writes >>>Yet, if one is an Adept when they >>>figure out the "system," why have a "system" at all? >> > >>When the temple is built, the tools [system] are set aside. > >Ye are so wise! > >BUT, - what I meant was: why do we need a "system" to keep out "traitors" if >all those in the group are supposed to be Adepts? If it were possible for a >"fake Adept" to worm his/her way into the group - wouldn't they eventually >fall away due to their spiritual "immaturity" - and, if they didn't - like >Bart said - it would be because the group needed a rattling. > >I don't know - Bart brought up this "system" thing to keep out "traitors" >and I started thinking about it, but then Bart said that sometimes >"traitors" are needed in a group, and my brain flashed "Tilt!," but now Bart >won't further clarify his original point of discussion. And I think Titus >knows something I don't, and should. Frankly, it doesn't make sense to me either. It doesn't even need groups (as such) just to follow a spiritual path. See Nicole's post(s). Organisation to publicise things, yes - theos-l is one such. > >What do I do now, Oh, Fair and Free-haired One of Cornwall? > Make coffee and think about cats. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:21:19 -0400 (EDT) From: CPickar965@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1282 Message-ID: <971016072118_-1126490258@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-14 10:57:00 EDT, you write: Nicole, << To CPickar: "as they have to put up the shields which they can so comfortably lose when within the group." Could you please help me here - I have difficulties feeling comfortable whithout shields and loosing shields sometimes makes me feel terribly afraid. You seem to know people who can loose them and feel comfortably. Maybe you wish to learn to me, what makes them feel so comfortable without shields?>> I didn't introduce or comment on the subject of shields, (Bart did). Bart, also, answered - I agree with his answer. We can't drop our shields with everyone. Knowing who we can drop our shields with and who we can't is a form of DISCRIMINATION. While we can't drop them with everyone and, yes, I do know a few individuals who drop their shield (probably not 100% I doubt if any of us are ready for that). IMHO, the ability to drop one's shield and allow others to drop theirs without criticsm, condemnation or judgementalness is, if not in itself, then a form of, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. Our inability to drop our shield without ego getting in the way, or being a doormat for other and permitting the same of others is IMHO, the root of a great deal of our personal problems in relationships, jobs and community. I can recommend at least 3 non- "Theosophical" books that can shed some light on this. If your interested e-mail me. I don't want to bore the list with it. This also ties into concepts of racism - (Comment in digest 1281 about "the white supremisct''.) BTW, I'm in Chicago and I didn't realize we had rabid race fever here. (Earlier dialogues) I was under the impression it was a global problem. crp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:32:45 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Digest 1282 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971016193245.00c3ad64@mail.eden.com> At 01:01 PM 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> Then we have the K after the "Truth is a Pathless Land" statement and took a >> stand that each has to find out Truth (or whatever we want to call) and no >> organization, no leader, no system, no belief or anything of that sort is >> going to help anyone searching for Truth. Many agree with him and many do >> not. When he took the revolutionary unexpected stand, many agreed with him >> and many did not. > > He never said that organizations, leaders, systems, beliefs etc. didn't >HELP; he simply said that they won't take you all the way there. > > Bart Lidofsky >From what I have read, K supported organizations only for two activities. One is a school - 1 to 12 grade and the foundations whose job was to handle the mechanical job of publishing his lectures and tapes. Since his "Truth is a Pathless Land" declaration he always said that organizations, leaders, systems and beliefs can never help any one to discover Truth. He also maintained that no one can come to Truth in a progressive manner since there is no path to it. .....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:55:03 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710162055.NAA02673@palrel1.hp.com> kymsmith@micron.net asked: > Why do we need a "system" to keep out "traitors" if all those in the group > are supposed to be Adepts? If it were possible for a "fake Adept" to worm > his/her way into the group - wouldn't they eventually fall away due to their > spiritual "immaturity" - and, if they didn't - like Bart said - it would be > because the group needed a rattling. > And I think Titus knows something I don't, and should. > What do I do now, Oh, Fair and Free-haired One of Cornwall? O Greatest of the Cornwalls, shall we initiate her into our privileged mysteries? After all, our arcane knowledge gleaned from torchlit ceremonies in Himalayan caves should not be lightly given out. It could be used for great good or incalculable harm. Well, since the Free-haired One has seeb fit to give out the secrets of coffee and cats, I guess I can let a little more knowledge out ... Seriously, I don't remember talking about a system to keep "traitors" out, only asking Bart what to do when the inevitable trials come upon a dedicated group of people. It seems to be a spiritual law that you are contested from within - whether we are talking about an individual or a group. As Jesus said, "A man's foes shall be they of his own household." If I understood him, Bart said that a good group would have no contesting persons in it, thus making my question meaningless for these advanced seed groups. Look at the Masters, he said. I suppose I could imagine the chelas and co-workers of the Masters being without destuctive dissensions, but every group *I've* known of has a Judas of some kind, i.e., one who has a divided mind and personal ambitions that can be a negative contagion. Those ambitions can have a deceptively noble appearance. Judas may sincerely have asked his Lord, "Why don't you use your power to overthrow the cruel Romans? What about our persecuted race?" Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." To Peter, who also had a trace of those physical ambitions, He said, "Thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." I wish I knew the answer to my own question. But I have a comment on yours. I don't think it is certain that "fake Adepts" will fall away. In my experience many do, but some stay and try to take over. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 16:57:28 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: TMR Indian edition Message-ID: <199710162057.QAA17219@leo.vsla.edu> A few weeks ago Indian Books Centre of Delhi, India published an English language edition of The Masters Revealed. I knew this was in the works but just found out it was already in print. They're a leading scholarly publisher specializing in books about India. (Their website is supposely http://ibcindia.com but I can't get into it although that address can be found through AltaVista.) This illustrates the "Law of Otherwise" stated by Gurdjieff: "things always turn out otherwise than expected." All through the years I was writing the books on the Masters it was with one hope: that within the Theosophical movement the subject of HPB's historical sponsors would become a focus of some serious interest, discussion/debate in periodicals, and further scholarly exploration. It would be hard to imagine a more absolute, total failure as measured by that criterion than what has occurred. In various places in the movement the books were ignored, vigorously attacked and rejected, or praised and then forgotten. But the field of inquiry I was hoping to encourage has shown not a single spark of life in the seven years since my hypotheses first appeared in print, save for Joscelyn Godwin's parallel investigations-- and he's not a Theosophist. (Contrary to what some people might imagine, I never dared hope that the books would be embraced and accepted unquestioningly within the movement. But I did hope that criticism might move in the direction of "Who were the Masters, then, if not these people?" which it has not and apparently never will.) I never in my wildest dreams imagined the subject becoming one of interest to the world of Indian scholarship, and this in the long run is a much more satisfying vote of confidence than that denied me in the Theosophical world, since it comes from total strangers whose opinion is based on far more objective criteria than those which have caused dismissal of the topic as unworthy of Theosophical consideration. Moreover, as a total novice in Indian studies/history I am delighted to have produced work which is recognized by a publisher specializing in that field as having scholarly merit. Seems like a miracle, in fact. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:30:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: the Old Adepts Message-ID: <971016192859_1868311606@emout17.mail.aol.com> >From the mysterious and rarely seen "Book of the Dugpas" "And it came to pass that in the time of the steam and smoke belching engines, the Master Ahriman and the Master Suteck and the Master Callifrax were looking in the giant crystal ball seeing the state of the world and were sore distressed. For the chains upon the human soul forged by the foulness that is Christ were dropping away and it appeared that large portions of humanity would become free of superstition and be forever lost. It was at this point that the Master Ahriman summoned up the images of the opposition, particularly those of the Master Koot Humibug and the Master TellmeMorya and sent to them the idea of creating an organization to impose the superstitions of the East upon the rational minds of the West to replace the dying embers of Xtianity. The first indication of success came when the extra large image of HPB appeared in the crystal ball of the Master Koot Humibug and he asked the Master TellmeMorya, 'What the hell is a chela?' To which the Master TellmeMorya responded,'I just made the word up. Those idiots'll believe anything!'" Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:32:06 -0600 From: JRC Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710162333.RAA07296@server.umt.edu> >If I understood him, Bart said that a good group would have no contesting >persons in it, thus making my question meaningless for these advanced seed >groups. Look at the Masters, he said. I suppose I could imagine the chelas and >co-workers of the Masters being without destuctive dissensions, but every >group *I've* known of has a Judas of some kind, i.e., one who has a divided >mind and personal ambitions that can be a negative contagion. >I wish I knew the answer to my own question. But I have a comment on yours. I >don't think it is certain that "fake Adepts" will fall away. In my experience >many do, but some stay and try to take over. > For whatever its worth, I've been part of a working group that has been togather for over ten years now, and we've never had anything like a "Judas" experience. We do have great differences between us - coming from very different value systems, social and economic classes, and age groups - and we've certainly had our share of very intense battles ... but I guess I could also say that from my experience the battles themselves were part of the growth process, and that participation in a working group opens up layers of growth and aspects of being that nothing else can even come close to - IMO the personal energy-system enlarges, deepens and develops to the extent to which it is pushed beyond the confines of its comfort zone, and commitment to a group simply does that in a way that a century of solitary reading and meditation cannot. IMO the "Judas" phenomena (and I've seen it in other groups) is relevant in the *Piscean* model of groups ... one leader/ideology and many followers. The Aquarian model, IMO (and I'm beginning to see it forming tentatively all over the place) cannot really *have* a "Judas" - because it does not contain a single leader and ideology, but rather is far more fluid ... a particular perspective is chosen for whatever the work at hand is composed of, and *every member* has a say in formulating that perspective and the means of working towards it. In the Picsean model "Judas" had the choice of either just accepting the means and the ends of Christ, or going against them. If *active, engaged conversation* had happened, however ... if Judas had felt free enough to suggest his option, had engaged in discussions with the others where they *also* discussed their perspectives and the way they thought ends should be accomplished, perhpas Judas would have come to an *understanding* of the limitations of his point of view. When there is a single group leader and single ruling ideology, there almost cannot *help* but be a "Judas" arise eventually. But if a group forms on the presumption that there is equality of spirit (regardless of differences in specific abilities in specific areas), a Judas is not even *possible* - in the group to which I belong, after all we've been through with each other we've become so tuned that I doubt any of us could operate with anything other than genuine intentions without the rest of the group knowing immediately. We do a lot of inner work on various projects, at at times various ones of us have come up with ridiculously bad ideas - ideas as bad as Judas' was - but it just wouldn't occur to any of us to slink off alone and execute them without first just discussing it with everyone else. Oddly enough, most of the points in the current theos-l discussion have never really arisen in practice. The question of letting down barriers is really a moot point - to do any joint inner work at all pretty much means that everyone is fairly well fully exposed as they are ... the good and the bad. Ego battles have not proved to be anything other than a minor distraction ... and the group has had no problem recognizing them and telling the two or three involved to go deal with themselves and and resolve the petty personal stuff - the far bigger issue has been not ego, but the really *substantive* disagreements that arise when fundamental differences exist in core belief systems and backgrounds - to attempt to arrive, for instance, at a single image the entire group can focus their energy through for the sake of improving the circumstances of a war torn nation ... when a Native American from the Blackfoot tribe, a former Roman Catholic, a Buddhist, a neo-platonist and several totally eclectic people are all fully engaged in the process... Anyway, guess I've babbled enough. This group thing has been the most interesting discussion I've seen on theos-l in quite some time. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:02:00 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: the Old Adepts Message-ID: In message <971016192859_1868311606@emout17.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >The first indication of success came when the extra large image of HPB >appeared in the crystal ball of the Master Koot Humibug and he asked the >Master TellmeMorya, 'What the hell is a chela?' To which the Master >TellmeMorya responded,'I just made the word up. Those idiots'll believe >anything!'" They even believed that I had made up the word "chela!" TelmeMorya (Masters, Inc.) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:22:11 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: the Old Adepts Message-ID: <199710170025.UAA05543@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: the Old Adepts > Date: Thursday, October 16, 1997 6:32 PM > > >From the mysterious and rarely seen "Book of the Dugpas" > LOUD APPLAUSE! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:27:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theosophical Themes Message-ID: <971015133632_-293812336@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-15 09:20:27 EDT, you write: >In Babylon5 >Of course there are theosophical themes: > >The planets they occasionally visit are sometimes called "Globes". >Jakar (spelling?) was put in "chains" by the emperor. >Londo can't leave the bar until everyone has "another round!" > >--Chuck E. Bermingham > Laughed so hard at that one I just had to change my underwear! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:24:54 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: The New Adepts Message-ID: <199710170324.UAA14965@palrel1.hp.com> JRC > For whatever its worth, I've been part of a working group that has been > togather for over ten years now, and we've never had anything like a "Judas" > experience. We do have great differences between us - coming from very > different value systems, social and economic classes, and age groups - and > we've certainly had our share of very intense battles ... but I guess I > could also say that from my experience the battles themselves were part of > the growth process, and that participation in a working group opens up > layers of growth and aspects of being that nothing else can even come close > to - IMO the personal energy-system enlarges, deepens and develops to the > extent to which it is pushed beyond the confines of its comfort zone, and > commitment to a group simply does that in a way that a century of solitary > reading and meditation cannot. Yes. I have found this last part to be true also. > Ego battles have not proved to be anything other than a minor distraction > ... and the group has had no problem recognizing them and telling the two or > three involved to go deal with themselves and and resolve the petty personal > stuff - the far bigger issue has been not ego, but the really *substantive* > disagreements that arise when fundamental differences exist in core belief > systems and backgrounds - to attempt to arrive, for instance, at a single > image the entire group can focus their energy through for the sake of > improving the circumstances of a war torn nation ... when a Native American > from the Blackfoot tribe, a former Roman Catholic, a Buddhist, a > neo-platonist and several totally eclectic people are all fully engaged in > the process... Anyway, guess I've babbled enough. I know books have been devoted to how a non-hierarchical group may function. M. Scott Peck, for instance, wrote an interesting book on community - and started the Foundation for Encouragement of Community. I've always wondered how effective his ideas are and how well they work in the long run. How often do your members interact with one another? What is the size of your group? How do you achieve consensus? Or do you? Thanks for your comments. I don't find them to be "babbling". From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:40:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: the Old Adepts Message-ID: <3+ELUFAvPrR0Ew1n@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199710170025.UAA05543@marconi.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >---------- >> From: Drpsionic@aol.com >> Subject: the Old Adepts >> Date: Thursday, October 16, 1997 6:32 PM >> >> >From the mysterious and rarely seen "Book of the Dugpas" >> > > >LOUD APPLAUSE! > >A. Safron Are you allowed to say "big?" Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 06:52:52 -0400 (EDT) From: CPickar965@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1286 Message-ID: <971018065251_1801418327@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-17 21:20:06 EDT, you write: Titus Roth: << I know books have been devoted to how a non-hierarchical group may function. M. Scott Peck, for instance, wrote an interesting book on community - and started the Foundation for Encouragement of Community. I've always wondered how effective his ideas are and how well they work in the long run. How often do your members interact with one another? What is the size of your group? How do you achieve consensus? Or do you? >> This is not addressed to me but I would like to comment. It's a pleasure to see someone else reading M. Scott Peck's work. I have found the concept for community building very similiar to the "teamwork concept's" I work with and study. Roughly, another group I am affiliated with has used some of his ideas. We're very small (5-6). We meet once a week. Their is still some communication problems with one individual. So, no we don't achieve a total consensus. The structure of the orginization we are part of is hierarchal and some decisions out of necessity are done that way. However, what has happened is the spirit of the group is positive and members tend to willing take responsibility for issues (like bringing supplies and helping with certain chores) based on their own willingness to take on the responsibility (frequently without being asked). A natural flow seems to take place. Peck's community idea actually is very similiar to empowerment concepts. I have found people who hold the traditional roles of authority within the group fall directly into Peck's definintions of having to be vulnerable and going through the crucifixation experience. The person in leadership or authority does have to develop empty mind to hear all sides and be fair in the process of monitering the group. I don't think you can get away from having a "leader". But the concept of how the leader behave's is changed and how problems are resolved take on a different air. The group as a whole grows, and over time "shields" are dropped or lowered. One of the concepts Peck talked about was "vulnerability" which, IMO, is dropping your shield. There is a sense of closeness that grows through the process which I would describe as community. I believe Peck did include a place for leadership in his book, which implies a loosely structured hierarchy. For those who are interested - Peck has two very good books which I see as Theosophical in nature "Different Drum" (community building) and "People of the Lie". There is a third book which I haven't read but appears to tie into this "A World waiting to be Born." In a nutshell, I agree with JRC the process of being committed and trying to work out our differences develops each individual in a way the path of the recluse or solitary can not. What you gain from the experience is intense and personal. I suspect it pushes you further along the "path" then any amount of meditation and reading can do. crp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 07:44:21 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Good-bye for a while Message-ID: <199710181251.IAA14472@mcfeely.concentric.net> Hello folks! I'm going to be absent for a while as I have to deal with some other things in my life. It is true that after my membership to TS expires in March, I will not renew. I have no bad feelings towards TS, I just happen to live in the wrong place. Olcott, the Co-Masons, the single lodge I used to belong to, a suburban study group, are all an hour or more driving time away. I started my own study group, as secretary, but had to resign for health reasons this year. I feel there isn't any way to connect with an organization I am paying dues to. And as for moving - well, I'm married to a man who is legally blind and needs public transportation and nearby stores to function normally. There are no such things near Olcott or anywhere in the suburbs of Chicago. As I said, I live in the wrong place to participate in anything currently available at TSA. Considering the time and energy I would have to put into driving, it just didn't seem worth it anymore,especially when I was almost killed by a drunk driver on the way to Olcott on dark night in January of this year. KPJ has been urging me to rejoin the ARE for some time and I have done so. I will return to the list at some point in the future. Those of you who have my private email address, feel free to correspond. Many blessings to all, A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 97 15:14:13 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: What I find so wearisome about exoteric religions is that there idea of divine justice whether represented in a system of sin and forgiveness or karmic action and reaction can be used to justify what the leaders of the movement want for their society. Such leaders have been the FOLLOWERS of Mohamed, Chist, Budda, Lao-Tse, Confusious, and a whole slew of modern gurus and teachers. Theosophy seem to offer the hope that underlying the outter is an inner truth that would be universally true dispute the differences in factions and pressure groups. I think the value of Krisnimurti, is his constant reiterating that TRUTH IS A PATHLESS LAND. I am afraid this means, dispite attempts to make HPB the arbiter of ulitimate truth (I mean she could have had a slip of the pen when she was getting it all from the Masters, you know) that we are forced to define the good, the true and the just on an ongoing basis in our daily lives. This is were such ideas of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE as an inner guide to daily struggles. To bring this down to earth, I was thinking about a certain individual in our lodge that has been in the soicety for decades and has spent much time at Adyat etc. who is absolutley sure that he has never been incarnated as a woman. I at first dismissed this with bemused contempt mixed with tolerance until I examined my own core beliefs and his possible motivations. The new age mumbo jumbo seems to imply, though not directly state, that we will or have incarnated in every race, religion, geographic area, sex, class, job title, race ad absurdum. Some teachings I have read, mostly the periprial commenators of theosophy or whatever like Alice Bailey (excuse me if I am wrong I am just using her as an example), seem to imply that we are on a RAY. This ray has a special purpose and does not change from lifetime to lifetime although outter circumstances vary greatly. This RAY acts like a SOUL or SOUL RAY and is guided by a whole set of principles and overseen by a specific Master. Now, as I thought about it, I wonder if I will ever know or should know. I mean what if he were right. This may explain a lot of things. I mean we may be on a certain ray and incarnate in a difficult situation where it is difficult to express those energies. I am thinking of for instance a Ray that if one is say an artist, one may incarnate with all the money in the world, but arthiritis or deafness etc. or one may be poor, but need to create despite the lack of food and shelter (starving artist syndome). One may be very rich and give it up like Buddha or very poor and claim to be the King of Kings like Christ. On a more physical leve, one may be on a masculine ray and incarnate in a female body ( a possiblity for lesbians). One may have high ethics and/or morals or just be an outcast and so join resistance movements which involve quasi-crimal/revolutionary actions. The mushy version which I prefer, is that we all get to play all the parts because we are in essence the author or co-existant with all that is which is the author. The RAYS come from one UNIFIED LIGHT. I think as humans with highest spirit in lowest matter, we are torn between alligence to group norms and the indiviual path. This seems to be the essence of most discussions about "why can't we all just be friends?". What have you learned from your readings or life experience? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:50:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: <971019144934_190969305@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-19 11:20:56 EDT, you write: >What have you learned from your readings or life experience? > >Namaste >Keith Price Well, the only previous incarnations I have ever accessed were in a male body and killing somebody, but that does not mean there were not others. The problem with trying to impose ANY ethical or moral ideas on evolution is that it runs up against the Japanese sword saint, Musashi, who attained enlightenment in a single lifetime by killing 63 or so men in single combat which sort of knocks any idea of there being an ethical or moral relationship to enlightenment (at least in any conventional sense) into a cocked hat. It would seem that in the matter of evolution, the only rule is that there are no rules and that gives us a marvelous opportunity to ignore, laugh at, or really piss off (and then laugh at as they jump up and down with all the impotent fury of a room full of clergy) those who think that there are. I still think the recipe for enlightenment involves lots of sex, leather, meat and landmines and the rest is just so much hot air; interesting hot air, but hot air. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:10:20 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: NDE of Betty Bland Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971019231020.011f6e50@mail.eden.com> Betty Bland, First VP of TSA, was here in San Antonio and gave a lecture on NDE followed by a Seminar on Forgiveness at the San Antonio TS Lodge. Her lecture was well attended and since on NDE she was talking from personal experience it was of interest to all. Too frequently we find discussing thing in which we don't have first hand knowledge. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:46:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: NDE of Betty Bland Message-ID: <971019194305_-226015028@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-19 19:14:10 EDT, you write: >Her lecture was well attended and since on NDE she was talking from personal >experience it was of interest to all. Too frequently we find discussing >thing in which we don't have first hand knowledge. > It was nice that Betty came back but the usual problem with the Near Death Experience is that most folks who have them do come back instead of staying dead and out of everyone's hair. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:23:01 -0400 From: libidia Subject: Re: Good-bye for a while Message-ID: <344AB275.5BFC@globalserve.net> Dear A Safron, you wrote: > I'm going to be absent for a while as I have to deal > with some other things in my life. > I'm glad to break my silence to say au revoir and wish you and your husband the best of health, wealth and happiness in the future until you write again. I have read your comments with much interest for some time now and you have contributed to my learning process. You may be interested to hear that I have stopped feeling sorry for myself and am getting some of my old energy back. Almost as soon as I did that, people started to call and visit me again. I am taking things more slowly and pensively and trying to listen much more than talk. But the main thing is I am giving myself a lot of love. I wish that for you. Thanks a lot and take good care. Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:26:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: interested in Theosophy Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Ken Monteith 2425 Hoffman st. Apt 1 Bronx, NY 10458 I am a graduate student at Fordham University just starting work toward a PhD in English. I am interested in looking at W.B. Yeats' connection to theosophy and wonder if any of the lodges might have old records or documents by or about Yeats. Anyone? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:55:34 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >I think as humans with highest spirit in lowest matter, we are torn between >alligence to group norms and the indiviual path. This seems to be the essence >of most discussions about "why can't we all just be friends?". > >What have you learned from your readings or life experience? That the "individual path" appears to follow a process which is essentially the same for all of us - it is, if you will, a law. If this is indeed so (as I suspect it is) them Krishnamurti was right to say that truth is a pathles land, for if all paths follow essentially the same route (cf. "all roads lead to Rome" as an analogy) then there is no path at all, only a process ("evolution" if you like) to which we are all subject. And ... if, as also appears to be the case, the highest spirit at the individual level is part of and integrally connected with spirit per se, then so is individual matter connected with matter per se. We are all, in truth, parts of an essential Unity of Being. "Group norms" seem to be designed as a means of avoiding these issues in order to claim some kind of "special-ness" for the members of the group, whether societal, or devised (as in organisations such as TS) and by so doing to *exclude* those who do not "fit" the norm. under *these* circumstances, of course we can't all be friends, and if the group norm is (as is almost ivariably the case)## of a hierarchical nature, then there is not even equality withing the group, so that rivalries (and thus enmities) are bound to arise within it, so that even as an *insider* we can't all be friends. ## [Except in Theosophy International] :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:04:10 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: <199710200204.UAA24561@mailmx.micron.net> Chuck wrote: >It would seem that in the matter of evolution, the only rule is that there >are no rules and that gives us a marvelous opportunity to ignore, laugh at, >or really piss off (and then laugh at as they jump up and down with all the >impotent fury of a room full of clergy) those who think that there are. So. . .regarding those little coiled things that stick out of the psionic helmet, and flash all those pretty colors . . .just how often do they require servicing? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:30:45 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Good-bye for a while Message-ID: <344AC255.7684@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > As I said, I live in the wrong place to participate in > anything currently available at TSA. Considering > the time and energy I would have to put into driving, > it just didn't seem worth it anymore,especially when > I was almost killed by a drunk driver on the way to > Olcott on dark night in January of this year. Before you leave, I would REALLY appreciate a list of what you think the TS could do for people like you. We have a lot of members of the New York Lodge with problems similar to yours, and have been wracking our brains looking for ways to serve them. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:55:57 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: interested in Theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971020045557.011723f4@mail.eden.com> At 09:32 PM 10/19/97 -0400, you wrote: > > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- >Ken Monteith >2425 Hoffman st. Apt 1 >Bronx, NY 10458 > >I am a graduate student at Fordham University just starting work toward a PhD >in English. I am interested in looking at W.B. Yeats' connection to >theosophy and wonder if any of the lodges might have old records or documents >by or about Yeats. > >Anyone? > >Alan I vaguely recall some articles on Yeats' connection was published in I believe may be AT. ......doss PS: May be Ken should directly contact Olcott Library. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:27:51 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: <199710200527.XAA28906@mailmx.micron.net> Keith wrote: >I think as humans with highest spirit in lowest matter, we are torn between >alligence to group norms and the indiviual path. This seems to be the essence >of most discussions about "why can't we all just be friends?". > >What have you learned from your readings or life experience? The opportunity for one to seek their "individual path" seems to come only AFTER one has been part of a group. Humanity would not have survived had it not been for the group mentality - individuals make easy prey. If everyone decided this minute to shun the "group norms" the world would be in chaos. Yet, at some point, everyone must seek their own way - and then, know how to return to the "group" in order to help others. Neither being in a group or on one's own journey is bad in itself or good in itself. I've never known of friends who didn't fight, or not speak to each other for a while, or insult each other, or tell each other to go straight to hell. For some, the concept of "friends" seems to imply that friendship is all lovey dovey. I feel that the worry over whether people are friends or not is robbing us of valuable energy and action. Everyone is my "friend" - I'm just mad at a whole bunch of them right now - but it will pass. . .and, in the meantime, I try to help where I can. I think: those who claim to know usually don't; those considered the dumbest can be the wisest; if you know a person's God, you know them; and nothing is ever as it seems. And, despite the sureness of philosophers, theologians, HPB, and Pat Robertson - I don't think we've a real clue about what God is or why we're here. Maybe this computer screen, and all you "theos people," are nothing but my own bout with indigestion or shadows of electric shock therapy. . . Poe seems to imply that thinking is not one's liberation, but one's downfall - well, duh. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:36:03 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: NDE of Betty Bland Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971020123603.0121eb88@mail.eden.com> At 07:48 PM 10/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-10-19 19:14:10 EDT, you write: > >>Her lecture was well attended and since on NDE she was talking from personal >>experience it was of interest to all. Too frequently we find discussing >>thing in which we don't have first hand knowledge. >> >> > >It was nice that Betty came back but the usual problem with the Near Death >Experience is that most folks who have them do come back instead of staying >dead and out of everyone's hair. > >Chuck the Heretic > I am glad to see NDExperiencers do comeback. How else can they tell us simple folks who use normal means of communication as to what they felt or saw or perceived. BTW, those who die have their problems solved. Usually it is the living that is left behind is faced with the loss of their dear ones, and sometimes causes a lot of problems for a long time. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:36:06 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Power if Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971020123606.01221bec@mail.eden.com> Hi, Kym: Glad to see your msg showing the power of Internet. (Posted some time ago). Several months ago, Intel was the target when it had distributed bug ridden chips and it was the incessant barrage from dedicated users which made them relent and accept the fact and take action to replace. Initially Intel's position was that the user had to demonstrate they have a problem with the chip in the applications they use the computer for. It even ended up with IRS issuing a notification that no one can claim that their tax return info was erroneous due to the buggy chip! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:36:04 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971020123604.012203e8@mail.eden.com> > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Foundation > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 9:01 AM > > You can do exactly the same thing I would do to get the answer: Send > mail, email, or call the National Headquarters at Wheaton, and ask. I, > however, have been forced by the actions of some people on this list. I think the foundation you are referring to is the TIT. Couple of years ago I requested the information directly from the National President, in writing and is yet to receive the info. Still waiting. May be others with better connections may have better luck in getting the info. If anyone succeeds, please post the details here. Would be interesting to see how it is supposed to function when and if the TSA is shut down. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:17:26 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1284 Message-ID: To Alan: "When the temple is built, the tools [system] are set aside." That's the "truth" of the "truth" - just my opinion. >I tried to look up the English expression for the German specialist term >"Grenzen" but wasn't successful. It is relatet to personal limits. "My dictionary says: grenzen: to border upon; to adjoin. Grenze: frointier, boundary, limit." Thank you for your help. My dictionary says the same - but I still have the feeling that I have not been able to find the correct word - shields seems to be the nearest one. To Bart Lidofsky: "In between the lines; I DID say, "extrapolating". Sorry - I must have overread that. "From things like explaining what their other duties were, their mentioning of other groups, etc. gave me a feeling for on the order of how many other groups of Adepts there were, and taking that over the history of the human race." Sounds very interesting - what does your feeling say - how many other groups of Adepts are there in 1997? "That comes from more of the writings by and about them; descriptions of their feelings on working in the outside world, descriptions of their relations with other Mahatmas, descriptions of what it is to be a Mahatma, etc. " You seem to have read so many wise things I havn't at all. But here I am wondering about one point - if a Mahatma describes his relations with other Mahatmas and writes it down, it somehow seems to be logical that he is only able to note very little. What do you think of that? "If a human being could become immortal, then that person might be able to do it him or herself, given several centuries." Since I am a child I work without a group but I did not become immortal neither do I feel that I am given serveral centuries - but I have always felt that there must be something "wrong" with me! (Hi, hi) > Thank you for the explanations. I have another question - what does > happen if the BOTH are right? An unfortunate mistake. Please explain why, if you wish to do so. "The idea is that the group can eventually be brought back to the traditions, and the disgruntled member can work to bring the group back." Maybe the disgruntled members should learn how they find a way for themselfes to feel content without going back to the group's traditions but make something new for their own personalities? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:33:29 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: <344B6BB9.2C7F@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > Maybe this computer screen, and all you "theos people," are nothing but my > own bout with indigestion or shadows of electric shock therapy. . . Personally, I have seen a large increase in discussion on theosophy, and a lot less meaningless sniping and personal attacks around here. This list has really been improving over the last few months. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:59:31 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1285 Message-ID: To C. Pickar: "I didn't introduce or comment on the subject of shields, (Bart did). Bart, also, answered - I agree with his answer. We can't drop our shields with everyone. Knowing who we can drop our shields with and who we can't is a form of DISCRIMINATION. While we can't drop them with everyone and, yes, I do know a few individuals who drop their shield (probably not 100% I doubt if any of us are ready for that). IMHO, the ability to drop one's shield and allow others to drop theirs without criticsm, condemnation or judgementalness is, if not in itself, then a form of, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE." Thank you for your interesting explanations - I think unconditional love naturally happens between a mother and her child as long as it is a baby. "Our inability to drop our shield without ego getting in the way, or being a doormat for other and permitting the same of others is IMHO, the root of a great deal of our personal problems in relationships, jobs and community." Is it the ego or the desire of possesion which can easily lead to obsession and is often "sold" as "unconditional love"? "I can recommend at least 3 non- "Theosophical" books that can shed some light on this. If your interested e-mail me". Thank you for that - I will think about it. "I don't want to bore the list with it. " I sincerely hope I don't. "This also ties into concepts of racism - (Comment in digest 1281 about "the white supremisct''.) BTW, I'm in Chicago and I didn't realize we had rabid race fever here. (Earlier dialogues) I was under the impression it was a global problem." I guess it is both, global and local. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:04:14 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: the Old Adepts Message-ID: > To: TelmeMorya (Masters, Inc.): "They even believed that I had made up the word "chela!"" Is a poor private person able to buy a proper translation of the word "chela"? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:26:32 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Power if Internet Message-ID: <344B7828.767C@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > Several months ago, Intel was the target when it had distributed bug ridden > chips and it was the incessant barrage from dedicated users which made them > relent and accept the fact and take action to replace. Initially Intel's > position was that the user had to demonstrate they have a problem with the > chip in the applications they use the computer for. It even ended up with > IRS issuing a notification that no one can claim that their tax return info > was erroneous due to the buggy chip! Your message shows the power of the media over truth. The error in Intel chips was so tiny, that if someone had a tax return of billions of dollars, any error caused by the chip would have been less than a penny. Unless you were using your computer for work with quantum mechanics, space travel, or astrophysics, the error was merely an academic curiousity, and would never touch anything you did. It's sort of like having a Ming Vase with a tiny chip on the inside, near the bottom. Yes, there is a flaw, but if you didn't know it was there, it would never affect your enjoyment of it. Maybe a couple of hundred people were affected by the flaw. Intel rightly did not wish to have to replace millions of chips to fix the problems of a couple of hundred. So they tried to ensure that those who wished the chip replaced did so because they ran applications where the error made a difference, not because they thought it was a K00L thing to stick it to the chipmaker. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:27:53 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <344B7879.46AB@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > Couple of years ago I requested the information directly from the National > President, in writing and is yet to receive the info. Still waiting. Try Floyd Kettering, instead. I don't have his email address, however. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:43:41 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971020164341.00c1d8cc@mail.eden.com> At 11:31 AM 10/20/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> Couple of years ago I requested the information directly from the National >> President, in writing and is yet to receive the info. Still waiting. > > Try Floyd Kettering, instead. I don't have his email address, however. > > Bart Lidofsky > It is my normal practice that on very important matters like this, I go to the very top. It was a formal request by a dues paying member to the elected head of the organization. I think the top elected official has the responsibility to respond. Also the request was put in writing and in a couple of followup letters/msgs, I did remind the National President about his being silent. The silence speaks for itself, and at least we have theos-l to let everybody know about it. Again, if any one else is successful in getting the info, appreciate posting it here for everyone's benefit. Thanks again for your suggestion. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:28:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: NDE of Betty Bland Message-ID: <971020132631_-124675320@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-20 08:45:22 EDT, you write: >I am glad to see NDExperiencers do comeback. How else can they tell us >simple folks who use normal means of communication as to what they felt or >saw or perceived. > I'm not. they tend to be a pretty boring lot and we'll find out what's on the other side for ourselves soon enough. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:39:06 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <344BB35A.14EA@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > It is my normal practice that on very important matters like this, I go to > the very top. It was a formal request by a dues paying member to the elected > head of the organization. I think the top elected official has the > responsibility to respond. Also the request was put in writing and in a > couple of followup letters/msgs, I did remind the National President about > his being silent. That does not sound like John, but I have no reason to doubt your word. In any case, a good general rule is that when you wish something of an organization, you first ask the person whose job it is to have the information, and then, if you're not satisfied, you go to the top. And Floyd is pretty much in charge of keeping track of financial matters for the Society. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:01:27 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Power if Internet Message-ID: <344B8057.1497@dmv.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > Several months ago, Intel was the target when it had distributed bug ridden > > chips and it was the incessant barrage from dedicated users which made them > > relent and accept the fact and take action to replace. Initially Intel's > > position was that the user had to demonstrate they have a problem with the > > chip in the applications they use the computer for. It even ended up with > > IRS issuing a notification that no one can claim that their tax return info > > was erroneous due to the buggy chip! > > Your message shows the power of the media over truth. The error in > Intel chips was so tiny, that if someone had a tax return of billions of > dollars, any error caused by the chip would have been less than a penny. > Unless you were using your computer for work with quantum mechanics, > space travel, or astrophysics, the error was merely an academic > curiousity, and would never touch anything you did. It's sort of like > having a Ming Vase with a tiny chip on the inside, near the bottom. Yes, > there is a flaw, but if you didn't know it was there, it would never > affect your enjoyment of it. > > Maybe a couple of hundred people were affected by the flaw. Intel > rightly did not wish to have to replace millions of chips to fix the > problems of a couple of hundred. So they tried to ensure that those who > wished the chip replaced did so because they ran applications where the > error made a difference, not because they thought it was a K00L thing to > stick it to the chipmaker. > > Bart Lidofsky What a bunch of nonsense! Bart the chip didn't add correctly. All operations of the CPU can be reduced to addition, complimentation, and shifting. Addition is the only purely mathematical thing that it does. There is no excuse for making such a mistake. As it turned out the chips were replaced; there is justice after all! Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:36:37 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: 'Cuse me? - to Bart Message-ID: <199710202236.QAA22509@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: >kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >> Maybe this computer screen, and all you "theos people," are nothing but my >> own bout with indigestion or shadows of electric shock therapy. . . > > Personally, I have seen a large increase in discussion on theosophy, >and a lot less meaningless sniping and personal attacks around here. >This list has really been improving over the last few months. What does your response connect with the statement of mine you cited? The statement you snipped out is a philosophical (what is reality?) musing on my part - and a familiar one at that - no personal attacks anywhere in it - well, unless it somehow angers a person if another person is wondering if that angered person exists at all. . .. I'm thinking your response is implying that, in this particular case, I meant to insult people. I'm crushed you think so lowly of me, Bart. The only person I've MEANT to insult lately has been Chuck - and I'm downright filled with glee over that. I believe he can stick up for himself, albeit feeble, if he feels it warranted - but, if in some roundabout way, you're trying to come to his aid in some "brotherhood" manner, perhaps that could be considered admirable in its own way. Did you misunderstand my statement? Did I misunderstand your response? Has something specific perturbed you? (besides the fact that I incarnated in the same time period as you) Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:21:04 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: <344BAF20.2B73@dmv.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Maybe this computer screen, and all you "theos people," are nothing but my > own bout with indigestion or shadows of electric shock therapy. . . > > Poe seems to imply that thinking is not one's liberation, but one's downfall > - well, duh. > > Kym Poe was correct; the mind is an external form contained in the physical planes. The important responsiblity of the mind is to limit the soul. If you have ever been a part of an actual magical event and been resposible for it you would know. What my mind tells me is that there are certain proceedures to follow which engender the magical result, the actual mechanism of the action is unknown so the mind is of no use, and can only limit ones involvement in the magical. You might remember Gladis Cravits in "Bewitched" saying that she didn't see what had just witnessed; saying to herself that she just would not remember it. Most people have that kind of reaction, and they truly forget. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:21:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: the Old Adepts Message-ID: In message , Nicole Suter writes >To: TelmeMorya (Masters, Inc.): "They even believed that I had made up >the word "chela!"" > >Is a poor private person able to buy a proper translation of the word "chela"? Disciple. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:17:40 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Power if Internet Message-ID: <344C2CE3.21EC@sprynet.com> Vincent Beall wrote: > What a bunch of nonsense! Bart the chip didn't add correctly. All > operations of the CPU can be reduced to addition, complimentation, and > shifting. Addition is the only purely mathematical thing that it does. > There is no excuse for making such a mistake. As it turned out the chips > were replaced; there is justice after all! Can you name the instruction that was bugged, and use it in a short assembler program? From your statement, I am not even sure you know what an instruction IS. The error took place in the least significant digits (you know what that term means?) in a 128 bit operation. All the rest of the instructions were fine. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:19:47 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: 'Cuse me? - to Bart Message-ID: <344C2D63.17D4@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Bart wrote: > > >kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > >> Maybe this computer screen, and all you "theos people," are nothing but my > >> own bout with indigestion or shadows of electric shock therapy. . . > > > > Personally, I have seen a large increase in discussion on theosophy, > >and a lot less meaningless sniping and personal attacks around here. > >This list has really been improving over the last few months. > > What does your response connect with the statement of mine you cited? The > statement you snipped out is a philosophical (what is reality?) musing on my > part - and a familiar one at that - no personal attacks anywhere in it - > well, unless it somehow angers a person if another person is wondering if > that angered person exists at all. . .. I'm thinking your response is > implying that, in this particular case, I meant to insult people. I'm > crushed you think so lowly of me, Bart. You misunderstand; I thought you were saying that the list was getting worse, and I was replying that, from my point of view, it was getting better. Nothing more. Really. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:46:08 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Power if Internet Message-ID: <344BED3F.312D@dmv.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Vincent Beall wrote: > > What a bunch of nonsense! Bart the chip didn't add correctly. All > > operations of the CPU can be reduced to addition, complimentation, and > > shifting. Addition is the only purely mathematical thing that it does. > > There is no excuse for making such a mistake. As it turned out the chips > > were replaced; there is justice after all! > > Can you name the instruction that was bugged, and use it in a short > assembler program? From your statement, I am not even sure you know what > an instruction IS. The error took place in the least significant digits > (you know what that term means?) in a 128 bit operation. All the rest of > the instructions were fine. > > Bart Lidofsky I'm sorry I snapped at you Bart, and I can't name the instruction, but I have studied assembler for 360 series computers years back. Now you I suppose would know that errors in the LSBs can easily become disasterous when the computation is in an iterative form. And, such forms are quite common in the world of number crunching. Maybe it was limited to one ADD instruction, but that doesn't make for a decent computer. You know what they say at Silicon Graphics, Intel outside. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:14:18 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1289 Message-ID: To Alan: "That the "individual path" appears to follow a process which is essentially the same for all of us - it is, if you will, a law. If this is indeed so (as I suspect it is) them Krishnamurti was right to say that truth is a pathles land, for if all paths follow essentially the same route (cf. "all roads lead to Rome" as an analogy) then there is no path at all, only a process ("evolution" if you like) to which we are all subject." I agree 100 % to that what you write but I have questions concerning Krishnamurti. According to HPB literature Krishnamurti was once asked to help a deeply hurted clearvoyant woman who lost all her six sons in wars. She came to him and asked why this had happend to her because she herself was not able to "see" it. He answered that the cause was that she had killed some ants 51 incarnations ago. I consider this answer fist to be heartless, second there still is the wrong believe of "cause and effect" and third 51 incarnations ago to me does not sound very true. What surely worked here is that Kirshnamurti with this answer is able to gain some power on the cost of the poor women and maybe presses her deeper down then she might have felt before she went to meet him. I think that Krishna Vishnu might be a more worthful address ... what do you or others think of it? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:45:03 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1290 Message-ID: To Vincent: "Poe was correct; the mind is an external form contained in the physical planes. The important responsiblity of the mind is to limit the soul." Sorry for interrupting, but this sounds very interesting. I have a question: Is there also a possibility to use the mind in a way that it enriches the soul? "You might remember Gladis Cravits in "Bewitched" saying that she didn't see what had just witnessed; saying to herself that she just would not remember it. Most people have that kind of reaction, and they truly forget." Here I agree 100 % with you. I had to overwind that myself too. To Alan: >Is a poor private person able to buy a proper translation of the word "chela"? "Disciple." Thank you for that. Is there also a Sanskrit word for the "apostle" - so to say a "chela" with the Briatic level? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:01:42 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971021180142.00d4067c@mail.eden.com> At 03:42 PM 10/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> It is my normal practice that on very important matters like this, I go to >> the very top. It was a formal request by a dues paying member to the elected >> head of the organization. I think the top elected official has the >> responsibility to respond. Also the request was put in writing and in a >> couple of followup letters/msgs, I did remind the National President about >> his being silent. > > That does not sound like John, but I have no reason to doubt your word. >In any case, a good general rule is that when you wish something of an >organization, you first ask the person whose job it is to have the >information, and then, if you're not satisfied, you go to the top. And >Floyd is pretty much in charge of keeping track of financial matters for >the Society. > > Bart Lidofsky I think different people are used to different approaches. Thanks again. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:01:40 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: NDE of Betty Bland Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971021180140.00d3d880@mail.eden.com> At 01:30 PM 10/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-10-20 08:45:22 EDT, you write: > >>I am glad to see NDExperiencers do comeback. How else can they tell us >>simple folks who use normal means of communication as to what they felt or >>saw or perceived. >> >> > >I'm not. they tend to be a pretty boring lot and we'll find out what's on >the other side for ourselves soon enough. > >Chuck the Heretic > I am not yet ready for it yet! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:01:43 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Power if Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971021180143.00d41f28@mail.eden.com> At 04:36 PM 10/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >Bart Lidofsky wrote: >> >> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> > Several months ago, Intel was the target when it had distributed bug ridden >> > chips and it was the incessant barrage from dedicated users which made them >> > relent and accept the fact and take action to replace. Initially Intel's >> > position was that the user had to demonstrate they have a problem with the >> > chip in the applications they use the computer for. It even ended up with >> > IRS issuing a notification that no one can claim that their tax return info >> > was erroneous due to the buggy chip! >> >> Your message shows the power of the media over truth. The error in >> Intel chips was so tiny, that if someone had a tax return of billions of >> dollars, any error caused by the chip would have been less than a penny. >> Unless you were using your computer for work with quantum mechanics, >> space travel, or astrophysics, the error was merely an academic >> curiousity, and would never touch anything you did. It's sort of like >> having a Ming Vase with a tiny chip on the inside, near the bottom. Yes, >> there is a flaw, but if you didn't know it was there, it would never >> affect your enjoyment of it. >> >> Maybe a couple of hundred people were affected by the flaw. Intel >> rightly did not wish to have to replace millions of chips to fix the >> problems of a couple of hundred. So they tried to ensure that those who >> wished the chip replaced did so because they ran applications where the >> error made a difference, not because they thought it was a K00L thing to >> stick it to the chipmaker. >> >> Bart Lidofsky > >What a bunch of nonsense! Bart the chip didn't add correctly. All >operations of the CPU can be reduced to addition, complimentation, and >shifting. Addition is the only purely mathematical thing that it does. >There is no excuse for making such a mistake. As it turned out the chips >were replaced; there is justice after all! > >Vincent >-- > >vincent@dmv.com > >http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ > Much recently we had the situation of some of the Cyrix 166 chips having problems with Windows NT. They were not discounting the defective chips. So when I had to buy Cyrix chips, I just waited out for a new release in which it was fixed. Apart from the technical questions, the thrust of my message was that a small number activists on Internet can produce results. Individuals have achieved great things in the world. After all Internet is just another tool which can help. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:01:45 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Digest 1289 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971021180145.00d43e60@mail.eden.com> At 11:14 AM 10/21/97 -0400, Nicole Suter wrote: >To Alan: "That the "individual path" appears to follow a process which is >essentially the same for all of us - it is, if you will, a law. If this >is indeed so (as I suspect it is) them Krishnamurti was right to say >that truth is a pathles land, for if all paths follow essentially the >same route (cf. "all roads lead to Rome" as an analogy) then there is no >path at all, only a process ("evolution" if you like) to which we are >all subject." > >I agree 100 % to that what you write but I have questions concerning >Krishnamurti. > >According to HPB literature Krishnamurti was once asked to help >a deeply hurted clearvoyant woman who lost all her six sons in wars. >She came to him and asked why this had happend to her because she >herself was not able to "see" it. He answered that the cause was that >she had killed some ants 51 incarnations ago. > It is very interesting. This is the first time I am hearing about it. Where did you find this quote? I would like to go to the original source and read the full account. This is because everything I have so far read relating to Jiddu Krishnamurti indicates that he never discussed the "cause and effect" issue dealing with what one did in one of the past lives. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:08:26 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1286 Message-ID: <199710211808.LAA06976@palrel1.hp.com> I asked >> How often do your members interact with one another? What is the size of >> your group? How do you achieve consensus? Or do you? CPickar965@aol.com wrote: > We're very small (5-6). We meet once a week. Their is still some > communication problems with one individual. So, no we don't achieve a total > consensus. Thus always. Seems to be part of the game. Ann Ree Colton identified three types found in groups: the pidgeons, the doves, and the eagles. The doves are the harmless ones, the peace makers - always wanting to reconcile, but not always recognizing danger when they see it. They cannot understand when people do not get along. They are the oil that keep the gears from becoming worn. Pidgeons have a self-serving side and disrupt the harmony in a group. In reality, they are sent to stimulate members to explore that side of themselves and master it. Eagles are the high flying birds. They bear the brunt of the group's shadow and sometimes take hits for making good but unpopular decisions. Sometimes there is only one eagle, sometimes there is only one pidgeon. Usually you find several doves. > The structure of the organization we are part of is hierarchal and some > decisions out of necessity are done that way. I don't see how you can avoid a certain kind of hierarchy, but it doesn't have to be based on ego. As Jesus said, "He who would be chiefest among you, let him be your servant." A true servant is not in an inferior position relative to the master. "The servant is not greater than the master. And the master is not greater than the servant." As long as the roles are not artificial and based on presumption. > However, what has happened is the spirit of the group is positive and > members tend to willing take responsibility for issues (like bringing > supplies and helping with certain chores) based on their own willingness to > take on the responsibility (frequently without being asked). A natural flow > seems to take place. A tribute to the collective efforts of your group. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:09:45 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1290 Message-ID: <344D1A19.272D@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > Thank you for that. Is there also a Sanskrit word for the "apostle" - so to say > a "chela" with the Briatic level? There is a major difference between an "apostle" and a "disciple"; an apostle abandons a belief system to learn a new one. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:19:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: NDE of Betty Bland Message-ID: <971021191627_191317628@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-21 14:11:18 EDT, you write: >I am not yet ready for it yet! > >mkr Neither am I! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:23:19 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: NDE of Betty Bland Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971021232319.010df96c@mail.eden.com> At 07:19 PM 10/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-10-21 14:11:18 EDT, you write: > >>I am not yet ready for it yet! >> >>mkr > >Neither am I! > >Chuck the Heretic > Good. Theos-l needs all of us to keep it active! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:28:20 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: K Quote - Need Help. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971021232820.00d4b6c8@mail.eden.com> I am posting this to listening-l as I need help in locating the following quote. Here is something I read in a post on another maillist. Can anyone help identifying if anyone recalls this incident, because I have not seen it. mkr =================================================== I agree 100 % to that what you write but I have questions concerning Krishnamurti. According to HPB literature Krishnamurti was once asked to help a deeply hurted clearvoyant woman who lost all her six sons in wars. She came to him and asked why this had happend to her because she herself was not able to "see" it. He answered that the cause was that she had killed some ants 51 incarnations ago. I consider this answer fist to be heartless, second there still is the wrong believe of "cause and effect" and third 51 incarnations ago to me does not sound very true. What surely worked here is that Kirshnamurti with this answer is able to gain some power on the cost of the poor women and maybe presses her deeper down then she might have felt before she went to meet him. ======================================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:31:29 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Digest 1289 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971021233129.00d7cc68@mail.eden.com> At 11:14 AM 10/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >I agree 100 % to that what you write but I have questions concerning >Krishnamurti. > >According to HPB literature Krishnamurti was once asked to help >a deeply hurted clearvoyant woman who lost all her six sons in wars. >She came to him and asked why this had happend to her because she >herself was not able to "see" it. He answered that the cause was that >she had killed some ants 51 incarnations ago. > >I consider this answer fist to be heartless, second there still is the >wrong believe of "cause and effect" and third 51 incarnations ago >to me does not sound very true. What surely worked here is that >Kirshnamurti with this answer is able to gain some power on the >cost of the poor women and maybe presses her deeper down then >she might have felt before she went to meet him. I have just posted the above to listening-l so that someone will be able to identify the quote. I am seriously interested in finding more about when and where it happened. Will let you all know when I receive a feedback. In the listening-l there are quite a few subscribers with access to the CD-ROM of K's Works and also there are many who have extensive knowledge about K's statements and writings. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:15:08 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: <199710220015.RAA03460@palrel1.hp.com> Dr. A.M.Bain" wrote: > That the "individual path" appears to follow a process which is > essentially the same for all of us - it is, if you will, a law. If this > is indeed so (as I suspect it is) them Krishnamurti was right to say > that truth is a pathles land, for if all paths follow essentially the > same route (cf. "all roads lead to Rome" as an analogy) then there is no > path at all, only a process ("evolution" if you like) to which we are > all subject. Different paths are necessary for different individuals based on their peculiar disposition. But you certainly need to pick *some* path. I don't quite follow the last part of your paragraph. It is true that you can't say a given path is intrinsically "better" for all people. "Good" means it achieves maximum results for a the type of person who follows it. > "Group norms" seem to be designed as a means of avoiding these issues in > order to claim some kind of "special-ness" for the members of the group, > whether societal, or devised (as in organisations such as TS) and by so > doing to *exclude* those who do not "fit" the norm. Pathological groups are that way. Even originally healthy groups often degenerate into the type you describe. Several forces work to derail them. Unfortunately, they are little understood. I don't think humanity progresses because people pull themselves up by their own boot straps. Forerunner souls enter the earth at intervals to revitalize and stir spiritual strivings of mankind. While some people may appear to build their spiritual fortunes from scratch, from the ground up, much goes on behind the scenes. "Clouds of witnesses" guide us unseen. Students still have to make the avatar's teachings part of themselves and express it in their unique way - not lifelessly and falsely. "Despise not prophesyings", but "Prove all things." (St. Paul) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:29:48 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Digest 1290 Message-ID: In message <344D1A19.272D@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Nicole Suter wrote: >> Thank you for that. Is there also a Sanskrit word for the "apostle" - so to >say >> a "chela" with the Briatic level? > > There is a major difference between an "apostle" and a "disciple"; an >apostle abandons a belief system to learn a new one. > > Bart Lidofsky You may well be right, but this is not what Nicole is asking. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:42:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: In message <199710220015.RAA03460@palrel1.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >I don't think humanity progresses because people pull themselves up by their >own boot straps. Sometimes I don't think humanity progresses. > Forerunner souls enter the earth at intervals to revitalize >and stir spiritual strivings of mankind. Not proven - see your quote below. > While some people may appear to >build their spiritual fortunes from scratch, from the ground up, much goes on >behind the scenes. "Clouds of witnesses" guide us unseen. Students still have >to make the avatar's teachings part of themselves and express it in their >unique way - not lifelessly and falsely. I can accept and recognise that we receive unseen guidance - sometimes intuited even as we receive it. I am not so sure about avatars. > >"Despise not prophesyings", but "Prove all things." (St. Paul) Yep. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:38:14 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: In message <199710220015.RAA03460@palrel1.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >Dr. A.M.Bain" wrote: > >> That the "individual path" appears to follow a process which is >> essentially the same for all of us - it is, if you will, a law. If this >> is indeed so (as I suspect it is) them Krishnamurti was right to say >> that truth is a pathles land, for if all paths follow essentially the >> same route (cf. "all roads lead to Rome" as an analogy) then there is no >> path at all, only a process ("evolution" if you like) to which we are >> all subject. > >Different paths are necessary for different individuals based on their >peculiar disposition. But you certainly need to pick *some* path. I don't >quite follow the last part of your paragraph. It is true that you can't say a >given path is intrinsically "better" for all people. "Good" means it achieves >maximum results for a the type of person who follows it. Yes. I was asked, along with all of us, what I had learned from my studies (or something similar). I agree that in the beginning of a spiritual quest we are almost certain to pick an apparent path. As you will be aware, for me it was a kabbalistic one. I say an "apparent" path because it seems to me over many years of comparative study that such systems or paths as I have investigated have been the same thing put in different boxes, using different words. We could say, perhaps. that essentially we all follow the same "path" to the same "destination" - hence the idea that we undergo a "process" and that the following of a path is how it *appears* to us. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:32:39 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: K Quote - Need Help. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971022023239.010ec82c@mail.eden.com> Here is a response which seems relevant. mkr ===================================================== >Return-Path: listening-l-owner@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE >From: Benachad >Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:03:45 EDT >To: Listening-l@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE >Subject: Re: K Quote - Need Help. >Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) > >In a message dated 97-10-21 19:32:24 EDT, you write: > ><< I am posting this to listening-l as I need help in locating the following >quote. > > Here is something I read in a post on another maillist. Can anyone help > identifying if anyone recalls this incident, because I have not seen it. > > mkr > > =================================================== > I agree 100 % to that what you write but I have questions concerning > Krishnamurti. > > According to HPB literature Krishnamurti was once asked to help > a deeply hurted clearvoyant woman who lost all her six sons in wars. > She came to him and asked why this had happend to her because she > herself was not able to "see" it. He answered that the cause was that > she had killed some ants 51 incarnations ago. > > I consider this answer fist to be heartless, second there still is the > wrong believe of "cause and effect" and third 51 incarnations ago > to me does not sound very true. What surely worked here is that > Kirshnamurti with this answer is able to gain some power on the > cost of the poor women and maybe presses her deeper down then > she might have felt before she went to meet him. > >> > >The story you refer to is not about Krishamurti. If it was in HPB literature, >and I do think such a story might be in Isis Unveiled (I will check) you >should be aware that her writings were prior to K's teaching. In fact she died >just around (prior to?) his birth. I believe you are confusing Krishna for >Krishnamurti. Also, this story should be taken in context for its full >understanding. > >Respectfully, > >Jer' > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:45:16 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Digest 1290 Message-ID: <344D307C.1E2C@dmv.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > > To Vincent: "Poe was correct; the mind is an external form contained in the > physical planes. The important responsiblity of the mind is to limit the soul." > > Sorry for interrupting, but this sounds very interesting. I have a question: > Is there also a possibility to use the mind in a way that it enriches the soul? I'll make an attempt to answer your question, but my words may not be the best. The mind is tied to our actions, and is formed of knowledges. These many knowledges are each limited and are themselves the means of limiting our lives, making our physical activities habitual. Physical recreation frees the mind, and something that I am finding to be of paramount imporance to the spiritual enrichment of the soul is to Sabbath. My oppinion of mind is that they are altogether common, everyone has one, but without taking periodic rest of the sort that Sabbath implies anyones mind becomes controlling and tightly limiting, squeezing the ego into fits of outburst or disfunction. In this world of information bombardment peoples saturated minds are harboring impoverished souls. My advice is not to trust the limits that the mind imposes on your world, 1 Corinthians 13 states that love believes all things, does all things. We must constantly step back from the most ordinary things that we hold to be true, in that many of these 'evil' ideas serves only to limit the possibilities and reinforce our anoying habitual activities. Turn off the TV for a year maybe two, an aniversary of Zen like extistance can be illuminating. Peace be with you, Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:26:23 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Digest 1290 Message-ID: In message , Nicole Suter writes >To Alan: >Is a poor private person able to buy a proper translation of the >word "chela"? > >"Disciple." > >Thank you for that. Is there also a Sanskrit word for the "apostle" - so to say >a "chela" with the Briatic level? I do not know - sorry. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:01:36 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Krishna? Message-ID: To mkr: "It is very interesting. This is the first time I am hearing about it. Where did you find this quote?" I have been led to it in the Anthropogenesis and I will ask for a refinding. Please give me some time to do it. "I would like to go to the original source and read the full account." It's not very long - only a few lines. To me it was long enough, kind of a confirming of what I have seen "Krishnamurti" doing to people here in Switzerland - its worse than what the scientology "church" is doing. This is because everything I have so far read relating to Jiddu Krishnamurti indicates that he never discussed the "cause and effect" issue dealing with what one did in one of the past lives." What is it about him, you so much like? Could you please explain that if you wish to? I don't want to hurt you but out of my belly I feel the following - that name "Krishna m u r t i" sounds like "John Brown's body lies amoldring in the grave" (compared to Krishna Vishnu which "looks" like a golden sun) and what I have red from him feels like hot air. To me, it s o u n d s very intelectual but it lacks heart. Just my opinion, Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:48:12 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Krishna? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971022124812.0128cf60@mail.eden.com> At 06:02 AM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >To mkr: "It is very interesting. This is the first time I am hearing about >it. Where >did you find this quote?" > >I have been led to it in the Anthropogenesis and I will ask for a refinding. >Please give me some time to do it. > Since Anthropogenesis was written before K was born anything in it could not be about him or his actions. >"I would like to go to the original source and read the full account." > >It's not very long - only a few lines. To me it was long enough, kind of >a confirming of what I have seen "Krishnamurti" doing to people here >in Switzerland - its worse than what the scientology "church" is doing. > Could you cite couple of specific instances that you have seen what K was doing to people in Switzerland that you consider "worse than what the scientology "church" is doing." >This is because everything I have so far read relating to Jiddu Krishnamurti >indicates that he never discussed the "cause and effect" issue dealing with >what >one did in one of the past lives." > >What is it about him, you so much like? Could you please explain that if you >wish to? I have read a lot of his biographies and his writings. I also had opportunity to attend some of his lectures. Some of his speeches/discussions and writings have helped me to clarify my attitude to life and those with whom I deal with. > >I don't want to hurt you but out of my belly I feel the following - that name >"Krishna m u r t i" sounds like "John Brown's body lies amoldring in the >grave" (compared to Krishna Vishnu which "looks" like a golden sun) and >what I have >red from him feels like hot air. To me, it s o u n d s very intelectual >but it >lacks heart. Different strokes for different people. I have seen people going to his lectures and either they never want to go and listen to him or they come back again and again. So I am not at all surprised about anyone feeling like what you do. Don't worry about hurting me or any one. We are here to explore with an open mind and exchange information, ideas, opinions so all of us are better informed. We are bound to be different and that is what makes it interesting. Please post anything you want to say without any concern about hurting me or anyone. Thanks for your prompt response. mkr > >Just my opinion, > >Nicole > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:56:21 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1290 Message-ID: To Bart Lidofsky: "There is a major difference between an "apostle" and a "disciple"; an apostle abandons a belief system to learn a new one." Bart, this hurts! To me this feels icecold-iconically again. Brrr, I am all frozen. Please send enormous amounts of hot water! In case there where catolic people hurting you once, you might wish to speak about it freely - but don't blame me for it. I know there is a major difference between an "apostle" and a "disciple", but it is not only the one you are bringing up here. Maybe you wish to look up the orignially greek word in a dictionary. To me, the question is not the apostle nor the belief but the s y s t e m because love is the child of freedom. Maybe you wish to think about that. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:15:46 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, M K Ramadoss wrote: > It is my normal practice that on very important matters like this, I go to > the very top. It was a formal request by a dues paying member to the elected > head of the organization. I think the top elected official has the > responsibility to respond. Also the request was put in writing and in a > couple of followup letters/msgs, I did remind the National President about > his being silent. > > The silence speaks for itself, and at least we have theos-l to let everybody > know about it. Yes. This last year the President of the Montana Federation wrote the National Secretary and requested a list of the Montana members - it is something he had been able to get in the past ... the Federation is somewhat important in Montana, as we have very few people, and the members are scattered across a huge geographical area, Lodges are difficult to form. The President wanted to do a mailing, and hold a meeting to see about putting energy back into Theosophy in Montana, and to have a discussion about the By-Law changes (all but one member of the branch I belong to quit paying dues after the By-Laws "housekeeping" changes were pushed through). Well, the Federation President got a letter back saying that Wheaton didn't "recognize" the Montana Federation (odd, since the President had gotten mail as Federation President from both Wheaton and the Northwest Federation in past years). What might the motive be? Perhaps that he had represented Bing when Headquarters was engaged in its noble crusade (an *ugly* story), or had actually run for office against one of HQ's chosen ones ... and did uncomfortably well. So most Theosophists in Montana no longer affiliate with Wheaton. They still live the life. They still sometimes actually meet. They just see little reason to pay $30 dollars a year to an organization that does not facilitate their activities, but instead often appears as though it wants to inhibit them. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:30:06 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Krishnamurti Message-ID: To doss: "I have just posted the above to listening-l so that someone will be able to identify the quote." Gulp - that Krishnamurti must be a very, very, very important person which seems to have grown into a system. "I am seriously interested in finding more about when and where it happened." HPB does not say anything about when and where but she says that the adept's name was Krishna Vishnu. Why is it so important when and where it happened - do you and the other people you are talking about have to watch "K"'s life? "Will let you all know when I receive a feedback." Thank you very much - I don't feel I need a feedback at all. But the feedback might very well fit your needs. "In the listening-l there are quite a few subscribers with access to the CD-ROM of K's Works and also there are many who have extensive knowledge about K's statements and writings." I was wrong - that Krishnamurti is not only a very, very, very important person he is a Highness and he has a Kingdom, a Kingdom with many who have extensive knowledge about his statements! - wauw "statements" and writings - wauw "writings" - great - so these people have something to read (and maybe they don't have to think themselves anymore). I feel a pressure behind that which makes me feel afraid. Terribly afraid. (It feels as if these people are operating in a special zone called dullness. Dullness comes before horror. When meeting horror one is terryfied and this leads to an action like runing away etc.. To dullness our psyche reacts with faszination because the pyche is not capable here to discriminate.) Do these people also have extensive knowledge about themselves? What are the doing when they meet? Are the discussing "K"'s latest writings or statements? Is one free to say: "well here I agree with "K" but with what he writes here I don't"? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:32:57 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1291 Message-ID: To Alan: "You may well be right, but this is not what Nicole is asking." Thank you very much for that! Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:58:56 EDT From: Drpsionic Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Message-ID: <2689c66.344e2298@aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-22 11:33:52 EDT, you write: >HPB does not say anything about when and where but she says that the >adept's name was Krishna Vishnu. > Uh, has anyone stopped to think that Krishnamurti was not even born when HBP was writing and thus she would not have been referring to him at all? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:50:28 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: <199710221650.JAA22030@palrel1.hp.com> I wrote: >> Forerunner souls enter the earth at intervals to revitalize and stir >> spiritual strivings of mankind. "Dr. A.M.Bain" wrote: > Not proven - see your quote below. Depends on what level of proof you want. Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tsu, Milarepa, St. Francis, ... etc ... etc ... etc ... illustrate my point: When they were in the world, they attracted sincere and dedicated persons who were inspired to strive more deeply. When the great teachers left the world, dedication became more and more encrusted with personal ambition and tepid fervor. In some cases, such as with the Franciscan Order, successive leaders became out-and-out persecutors. We are left on our own for a while, but then another avatar comes. Too bad they are not often recognized in their own time. "A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country." > I can accept and recognise that we receive unseen guidance - sometimes > intuited even as we receive it. I am not so sure about avatars. There are degrees of avatars. I think of many people as God-sent. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:05:44 +0000 From: Kalleen Henderson Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1292 Message-ID: <344DCFF6.187@sttl.uswest.net> I would like to cancel my subscription From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:12:25 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Floating point error on Pentiums Message-ID: <199710221712.KAA00318@palrel1.hp.com> Count your blessings. Your Pentium could still be using DOS. "Suppose Edgar Allan Poe Used a Computer" Once upon a midnight dreary, fingers cramped and vision bleary, System manuals piled high and wasted paper on the floor, Longing for the warmth of bedsheets, Still I sat there, doing spreadsheets: Having reached the bottom line, I took a floppy from the drawer. Typing with a steady hand, I then invoked the SAVE command and waited for the disk to store, Only this and nothing more. Deep into the monitor peering, long I sat there wond'ring, fearing, Doubting, while the disk kept churning, turning yet to churn some more. "Save!" I said, "You cursed mother! Save my data from before!" One thing did the phosphors answer, only this and nothing more, Just, "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" Was this some occult illusion? Some maniacal intrusion? These were choices undesired, ones I'd never faced before. Carefully, I weighed the choices as the disk made monstrous noises. The cursor flashed, insistent, waiting, baiting me to type some more. Clearly I must press a key, choosing one and nothing more, >From "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" With my fingers pale and trembling, Slowly toward the keyboard bending, Longing for a happy ending, hoping all would be restored, Praying for some guarantee Timidly I pressed a key. But on the screen there still persisted, words appearing as before. Ghastly grim they blinked and taunted, haunted, as my patience wore, Saying."Abort, Retry, Ignore?" I tried to catch the chips off-guard - - I pressed again, but twice as hard. I pleaded with the cursed machine: I begged and cried and then I swore. Then I tried in desperation, sev'ral random combinations, Still there came the incantation, just as senseless as before. Cursor blinking, mocking, winking, flashing nonsense as before. Reading, "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" There I sat, distraught, exhausted; by my own machine accosted Getting up I turned away and paced across the office floor. And then I saw dreadful sight: a lightning bolt cut through the night. A gasp of horror overtook me, shook me to my very core. The lightning zapped my previous data, lost and gone forevermore. Not even, "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" To this day I do not know The place to which lost data goes. What demonic nether world is wrought where data will be stored, Beyond the reach of mortal souls, beyond the ether, in black holes? But sure as there's C, Pascal, Lotus, Ashton-Tate and more, You will one day be left to wander, lost on some Plutonian shore, Pleading, "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:52:23 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: K Quote - Need Help. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971022175223.0121655c@mail.eden.com> At 01:17 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >>According to HPB literature Krishnamurti was once asked to help >>a deeply hurted clearvoyant woman who lost all her six sons in wars. >>She came to him and asked why this had happend to her because she >>herself was not able to "see" it. He answered that the cause was that >>she had killed some ants 51 incarnations ago. >> >>I consider this answer fist to be heartless, second there still is the >>wrong believe of "cause and effect" and third 51 incarnations ago >>to me does not sound very true. What surely worked here is that >>Kirshnamurti with this answer is able to gain some power on the >>cost of the poor women and maybe presses her deeper down then >>she might have felt before she went to meet him. > >This doesn't sound like anything Krishnaji would say from all that I have >read and heard. Might I ask where you heard this or what the source is? >You can be walking down the street and step on ants and not even know it. >We've probably all "murdered" helpless ants thousands of times without >even being aware of it. > >Shane > >"If during the day you are alert, aware of all the movement of thought, >aware of what you are saying, your gestures....your responses, then all >the hidden things come out very easily....in that state of awareness >everything is exposed." J. Krishnamurti (You Are The World) > >G. Shane Hendricks, MLT (ASCP) >Email: Shanehendr@aol.com I found this in another maillist. I have asked the author and I will post the response of the author. It appears there was some confusion between Krishna (well known Indian God/Avatara) and Krishnamurti who was no relation to Krishna. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:11:58 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Foundation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971022181158.01290884@mail.eden.com> At 10:16 AM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, M K Ramadoss wrote: >> It is my normal practice that on very important matters like this, I go to >> the very top. It was a formal request by a dues paying member to the elected >> head of the organization. I think the top elected official has the >> responsibility to respond. Also the request was put in writing and in a >> couple of followup letters/msgs, I did remind the National President about >> his being silent. >> >> The silence speaks for itself, and at least we have theos-l to let everybody >> know about it. > >Yes. This last year the President of the Montana Federation wrote the >National Secretary and requested a list of the Montana members - it is >something he had been able to get in the past ... the Federation is >somewhat important in Montana, as we have very few people, and the members >are scattered across a huge geographical area, Lodges are difficult to >form. The President wanted to do a mailing, and hold a meeting to see >about putting energy back into Theosophy in Montana, and to have a >discussion about the By-Law changes (all but one member of the branch I >belong to quit paying dues after the By-Laws "housekeeping" changes were >pushed through). Well, the Federation President got a letter back saying >that Wheaton didn't "recognize" the Montana Federation (odd, since the >President had gotten mail as Federation President from both Wheaton and >the Northwest Federation in past years). What might the motive be? Perhaps >that he had represented Bing when Headquarters was engaged in its noble >crusade (an *ugly* story), or had actually run for office against one of >HQ's chosen ones ... and did uncomfortably well. > >So most Theosophists in Montana no longer affiliate with Wheaton. They >still live the life. They still sometimes actually meet. They just see >little reason to pay $30 dollars a year to an organization that does not >facilitate their activities, but instead often appears as though it wants >to inhibit them. -JRC > The current situation in many parts of the country is pitiful as far as lodge membership is concerned. At the rate at which we are seeing decline in the lodge membership, very few lodges will be left in the near future, especially after all the old timers pass away. I am yet to see any comprehensive plan to address where TSA is going in the next decade apart from efforts to take over control of the assets which was at the root of the so called "house-keeping' changes pushed through hook or crook by the National Board some time ago. May be the objective is to shrink the membership. Who knows? In this days of "democracy" it is time that we all need to know where the TSA is going so that we can get whole hearted and creative support of everyone not simply those sheep who can't think or are afraid of thinking. The TIT as it is constituted now, has a great built-in danger, in that TIT is not answerable to anyone if TSA folds up and also TIT can then change its internal setup in such a way it does even give up the properties it has taken control of and the Trustees can become self-perpetuating. This is a potential problem. Such a thing is not far fetched. Similar things have happened elsewhere in the past. The Krishnamurti Trusts led by D. Rajagopal (who was touted by TS Leaders of his time as an Initiate having passed the 2nd Initiation) had to be sued by the State of California and the new Trusts when it refused to account to Krishnamurti himself the moneys donated for Krishnamurti and his work. Truth can be stranger than fiction. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:27:20 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971022182720.012eb084@mail.eden.com> At 11:31 AM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >To doss: "I have just posted the above to listening-l so that someone will >be able to identify the quote." > >Gulp - that Krishnamurti must be a very, very, very important person >which seems to have grown into a system. > >"I am seriously interested in finding more about when and where it happened." > >HPB does not say anything about when and where but she says that the >adept's name was Krishna Vishnu. > >Why is it so important when and where it happened - do you and the other >people you are talking about have to watch "K"'s life? > When you make such positive statements, what is wrong in inquiring about where you got the material. It is immaterial how one personally feels about K or anyone else. But when a claim is made about anyone having said anything, any reasonable person should be able to substantiate it. >"Will let you all know when I receive a feedback." > >Thank you very much - I don't feel I need a feedback at all. But the >feedback might >very well fit your needs. It is not my needs. It is just track down your quote. > >"In the listening-l there are quite a few subscribers with access to the >CD-ROM of K's Works and also there are many who have extensive knowledge >about K's statements and writings." > >I was wrong - that Krishnamurti is not only a very, very, very important >person he is a Highness and he has a Kingdom, a Kingdom with many who >have extensive knowledge about his statements! - wauw "statements" and >writings - wauw "writings" - great - so these people have something to read >(and maybe they don't have to think themselves anymore). I feel a pressure >behind that which makes me feel afraid. Terribly afraid. > No need to be afraid of anything. Krishnamurti is just an ordinary human being like every one of us. If someone feels that he is a "Highness" it is their opinion and that is all to it. No need to be afraid of anything. >(It feels as if these people are operating in a special zone called dullness. >Dullness comes before horror. When meeting horror one is terryfied and this >leads to an action like runing away etc.. To dullness our psyche reacts >with faszination because the pyche is not capable here to discriminate.) > >Do these people also have extensive knowledge about themselves? What >are the doing when they meet? Are the discussing "K"'s latest writings or >statements? Is one free to say: "well here I agree with "K" but with what >he writes here I don't"? > Again we were talking about something factual you stated. Simple facts can be confirmed very simply. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:32:28 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Message-ID: <199710222232.QAA03218@mailmx.micron.net> Chuck wrote: >Uh, has anyone stopped to think that Krishnamurti was not even born when HBP >was writing and thus she would not have been referring to him at all? Lordy, I love this list! Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:03:37 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: FW: NEW VIRUS WARNING Message-ID: Tee Hee, JRC **************************** > >WARNING !!!!!!! > >Subject: FW: NEW VIRUS WARNING (read it) > >Careful guys, this thing will screw you up! > >If you receive an e-mail with a subject line of "Bad-times," delete it >immediately WITHOUT reading it. This is the most dangerous E-mail virus >yet. > >It will re-write your hard drive. Not only that, but it will scramble >any disks that are even close to your computer. It will recalibrate your >refrigerator's coolness setting so all your ice cream melts and your milk >curdles. It will demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards, >reprogram your ATM access code, screw up the tracking on your VCR and use >subspace field harmonics to scratch any CDs you try to play. > >It will make you soil yourself every time you turn on the microwave. > >It will give your ex-boy/girlfriend (ex-husband/wife) your new phone >number. It will mix antifreeze into your fish tank. It will drink all >your beer and leave its dirty socks on the coffee table when there's >company coming over. It will hide your car keys when you are late for >work and interfere with your car radio so that you hear only static while >stuck in traffic. > >It will replace your shampoo with Nair and your Nair with Rogaine, all >while dating your current boy/girlfriend (husband/wife) behind your back >and billing their hotel rendezvous to your Visa card. > >Badtimes will give you Dutch Elm disease. It will leave the toilet seat >up and leave the hairdryer plugged in dangerously close to a full >bathtub. > >It will not only remove the forbidden tags from your mattresses and >pillows, it will refill your skim milk with whole. It is insidious and >subtle. It is dangerous and terrifying to behold. It is also a rather >interesting shade of mauve. These are just a few signs. > >Be afraid. Be very, very afraid. > <>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<> Most American's (76%) consider themselves to be environmentalists or pro-environment (Carlton Research, July 1996) More than 78% of respondents in a 1995 Times Mirror poll said that "this country should do whatever it takes to protect the environment." <>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:34:49 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971022233449.00e11908@mail.eden.com> At 12:03 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-10-22 11:33:52 EDT, you write: > >>HPB does not say anything about when and where but she says that the >>adept's name was Krishna Vishnu. >> >> > >Uh, has anyone stopped to think that Krishnamurti was not even born when HBP >was writing and thus she would not have been referring to him at all? > >Chuck the Heretic > Brilliant! We all missed to the timing between HPB and Krishnamurti! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:17:17 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Message-ID: In message <199710222232.QAA03218@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Chuck wrote: > >>Uh, has anyone stopped to think that Krishnamurti was not even born when HBP >>was writing and thus she would not have been referring to him at all? > >Lordy, I love this list! > >Kym > Don't we all! (T. says thanks for letter and pics just received). Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:49:00 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Digest 1291 Message-ID: In message , Nicole Suter writes >To Alan: "You may well be right, but this is not what Nicole is asking." > >Thank you very much for that! > >Nicole > My pleasure. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:27:09 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Is Karma Politically Correct? Is the World? Message-ID: In message <199710221650.JAA22030@palrel1.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >I wrote: > >>> Forerunner souls enter the earth at intervals to revitalize and stir >>> spiritual strivings of mankind. > >"Dr. A.M.Bain" wrote: > >> Not proven - see your quote below. > >Depends on what level of proof you want. Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tsu, Milarepa, >St. Francis, ... etc ... etc ... etc ... illustrate my point: When they were >in the world, they attracted sincere and dedicated persons who were inspired >to strive more deeply. When the great teachers left the world, dedication >became more and more encrusted with personal ambition and tepid fervor. In >some cases, such as with the Franciscan Order, successive leaders became >out-and-out persecutors. We are left on our own for a while, but then another >avatar comes. Too bad they are not often recognized in their own time. "A >prophet is not without honor, save in his own country." Still not proven. The above is assertion accompanied by a quotation which may or may not be relevant. I could quote Matt. 19:10ff and argue that Jesus favored castration for all of his (male) followers and there is a case to answer, including historically. > >> I can accept and recognise that we receive unseen guidance - sometimes >> intuited even as we receive it. I am not so sure about avatars. > >There are degrees of avatars. I think of many people as God-sent. Thank you :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:22:18 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Dullness Message-ID: In message , Nicole Suter writes >(It feels as if these people are operating in a special zone called dullness. Sometimes it's called "Theosophy." Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:15:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: A New Foundation Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19971022181158.01290884@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >In this days of "democracy" it is time that we all need to know where the >TSA is going so that we can get whole hearted and creative support of >everyone not simply those sheep who can't think or are afraid of thinking. It doesn't look like that to me, neither in the US or here in the UK. The TS as such seems to be simply spiralling downward. Maybe here and there (as seems to be happening in New Zealand) there is still some real theosophical work being done, but here and in the US it doesn't need people to pay dues to a Society any more when that Society is not seen to be doing its job. > >The TIT as it is constituted now, has a great built-in danger, in that TIT >is not answerable to anyone if TSA folds up and also TIT can then change its >internal setup in such a way it does even give up the properties it has >taken control of and the Trustees can become self-perpetuating. This is a >potential problem. Such a thing is not far fetched. Similar things have >happened elsewhere in the past. So maybe one day TIT could end up with all of the property and find some legal way to carve it up for its own purposes. A number of people I have spoken to in the TS here are worried about the same thing - the loss of the assets, especially the properties, the buildings, the libraries. However, theosophy is not about property, is it, Doss? And the core writings from HPB onwards are increasingly entering the public domain as each year goes by, and can be downloaded for free, and distributed for free on disks by those who have the will and the means; and it takes only a little will and not too much in the way of means. Soon we will all be able to write to our own CD-Disks and even now we can use the 100MB Zip Disks. Printers can do so much now, right on our own desks. I can reproduce some of the early booklet reprints on a one-off basis for little cost, properly formated, stitched and trimmed - up to 32pp of text. Even now I have on my hard disk Vol 1 of *The Theosophical Voice* of 1908, which only ran to three issues. It dealt with the CWL affair. Some of the dissenting texts of the time are also on the website (below). TUP online (there is a link from the same website) has a number of theosophical classics waiting for download. (Click on 'Classic Texts Plus'). All just waiting there for the price of a phone call. So who needs to pay $30 or even $10 to an increasingly anachronistic institution? Those of us on the internet have this great mailing list (thanks again to the foresight and enterprise of John Mead!) where we can discuss theosophical ideas, controversies - whatever we will, and from any part of the world where there is internet access. *MY* TS lodges are theos-l and ti-l. There are no committees, every one of us pays her/his own way, and we can all talk to each other privately by e-mail whenever we wish. I meet with you all from an end room in an old farmhouse in the extreme southwest of Britain, almost at the very tip of Cornwall, with the Atlantic Ocean just along the road. What do I need with premises in Illinois, London, (350 miles away) or Bristol (200 miles away)? Nothing at all. We are entering a new age - let's get with it, maybe by helping those without the internet or computers to get access to them? The message for the new age is simple - get connected! Sincerely, Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:16:15 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1290 Message-ID: <344EB36F.5FDF@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > > To Bart Lidofsky: "There is a major difference between an "apostle" and a > "disciple"; an apostle abandons a belief system to learn a new one." > > Bart, this hurts! To me this feels icecold-iconically again. Brrr, I am all > frozen. Please send enormous amounts of hot water! It is a common error to consider an apostle to be another word for a disciple of a religious teacher. It was that which I was addressing. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:29:10 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Message-ID: <344EB676.71EF@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Chuck wrote: > > >Uh, has anyone stopped to think that Krishnamurti was not even born when HBP > >was writing and thus she would not have been referring to him at all? > > Lordy, I love this list! I simply got tired of writing, "I have no idea what you're talking about", yet again. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:03:44 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971023050344.00e3b9d0@mail.eden.com> At 10:22 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19971022181158.01290884@mail.eden.com>, >ramadoss@eden.com writes >>In this days of "democracy" it is time that we all need to know where the >>TSA is going so that we can get whole hearted and creative support of >>everyone not simply those sheep who can't think or are afraid of thinking. > >It doesn't look like that to me, neither in the US or here in the UK. >The TS as such seems to be simply spiralling downward. Maybe here and >there (as seems to be happening in New Zealand) there is still some real >theosophical work being done, but here and in the US it doesn't need >people to pay dues to a Society any more when that Society is not seen >to be doing its job. >> >>The TIT as it is constituted now, has a great built-in danger, in that TIT >>is not answerable to anyone if TSA folds up and also TIT can then change its >>internal setup in such a way it does even give up the properties it has >>taken control of and the Trustees can become self-perpetuating. This is a >>potential problem. Such a thing is not far fetched. Similar things have >>happened elsewhere in the past. > >So maybe one day TIT could end up with all of the property and find some >legal way to carve it up for its own purposes. A number of people I >have spoken to in the TS here are worried about the same thing - the >loss of the assets, especially the properties, the buildings, the >libraries. > >However, theosophy is not about property, is it, Doss? And the core >writings from HPB onwards are increasingly entering the public domain as >each year goes by, and can be downloaded for free, and distributed for >free on disks by those who have the will and the means; and it takes >only a little will and not too much in the way of means. Soon we will >all be able to write to our own CD-Disks and even now we can use the >100MB Zip Disks. > >Printers can do so much now, right on our own desks. I can reproduce >some of the early booklet reprints on a one-off basis for little cost, >properly formated, stitched and trimmed - up to 32pp of text. Even now >I have on my hard disk Vol 1 of *The Theosophical Voice* of 1908, which >only ran to three issues. It dealt with the CWL affair. Some of the >dissenting texts of the time are also on the website (below). TUP >online (there is a link from the same website) has a number of >theosophical classics waiting for download. (Click on 'Classic Texts >Plus'). All just waiting there for the price of a phone call. So who >needs to pay $30 or even $10 to an increasingly anachronistic >institution? Those of us on the internet have this great mailing list >(thanks again to the foresight and enterprise of John Mead!) where we >can discuss theosophical ideas, controversies - whatever we will, and >from any part of the world where there is internet access. > >*MY* TS lodges are theos-l and ti-l. There are no committees, every one >of us pays her/his own way, and we can all talk to each other privately >by e-mail whenever we wish. I meet with you all from an end room in an >old farmhouse in the extreme southwest of Britain, almost at the very >tip of Cornwall, with the Atlantic Ocean just along the road. What do I >need with premises in Illinois, London, (350 miles away) or Bristol (200 >miles away)? Nothing at all. We are entering a new age - let's get >with it, maybe by helping those without the internet or computers to get >access to them? The message for the new age is simple - get connected! > >Sincerely, > >Alan Alan: You are 100% right. For those in the USA not yet connected to Internet, primarily due to their living in small remote towns and rural areas, relief is coming. Some Internet companies are targeting small phone companies which usually serve these communities, thus soon Internet will become universal like telephone service. Finally we will have a situation where a formal organization is no longer needed. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:07:59 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971023140759.00cb0b04@mail.eden.com> >ramadoss@eden.com writes >>>In this days of "democracy" it is time that we all need to know where the >>>TSA is going so that we can get whole hearted and creative support of >>>everyone not simply those sheep who can't think or are afraid of thinking. >> >>It doesn't look like that to me, neither in the US or here in the UK. >>The TS as such seems to be simply spiralling downward. Maybe here and >>there (as seems to be happening in New Zealand) there is still some real >>theosophical work being done, but here and in the US it doesn't need >>people to pay dues to a Society any more when that Society is not seen >>to be doing its job. >>> >>>The TIT as it is constituted now, has a great built-in danger, in that TIT >>>is not answerable to anyone if TSA folds up and also TIT can then change its >>>internal setup in such a way it does even give up the properties it has There was a typo on my part. The above line should have read: "it does NOT give up the properties at all". Doing this is very easy. Just change the bylaws. mkr >>>taken control of and the Trustees can become self-perpetuating. This is a >>>potential problem. Such a thing is not far fetched. Similar things have >>>happened elsewhere in the past. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:17:38 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Digest 1290 Message-ID: In message <344EB36F.5FDF@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Nicole Suter wrote: >> >> To Bart Lidofsky: "There is a major difference between an "apostle" and a >> "disciple"; an apostle abandons a belief system to learn a new one." >> >> Bart, this hurts! To me this feels icecold-iconically again. Brrr, I am all >> frozen. Please send enormous amounts of hot water! > > It is a common error to consider an apostle to be another word for a >disciple of a religious teacher. It was that which I was addressing. > > Bart Lidofsky This is true. An apostle is a plenipotentiary for the teacher, with authority to act in the name of the teacher, a *sheliach* in Hebrew - it is almost as if the apostle has power of attorney - indeed, in Old Testament times this would have been a common understanding of the function. Hence the idea of an apostle, later a bishop or priest, acting "in his name." Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:45:24 -0400 (EDT) From: CPickar965@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1289 Message-ID: <971023224154_1790091435@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-20 11:06:12 EDT, you write: << Ken Monteith 2425 Hoffman st. Apt 1 Bronx, NY 10458 I am a graduate student at Fordham University just starting work toward a PhD in English. I am interested in looking at W.B. Yeats' connection to theosophy and wonder if any of the lodges might have old records or documents by or about Yeats. Anyone? Alan >> Ken might try talking to the National Secretary, Nathan Greer, at Olcott/Wheaton. It seems to me I was present on a presentation he did about the history of the Society and some of the famous people connected to it. He may be able to give him a lead. crp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:55:30 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Message-ID: <199710240155.SAA18692@palrel1.hp.com> Me: >> Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tsu, Milarepa, >> St. Francis, ... etc ... etc ... etc ... illustrate my point: When they were >> in the world, they attracted sincere and dedicated persons who were inspired >> to strive more deeply. When the great teachers left the world, dedication >> became more and more encrusted with personal ambition and tepid fervor. In >> some cases, such as with the Franciscan Order, successive leaders became >> out-and-out persecutors. We are left on our own for a while, but then another >> avatar comes. Too bad they are not often recognized in their own time. "A >> prophet is not without honor, save in his own country." Alan: > Still not proven. The above is assertion accompanied by a quotation > which may or may not be relevant. I could quote Matt. 19:10ff and argue > that Jesus favored castration for all of his (male) followers and there > is a case to answer, including historically. Oh, Alan! My quote was an aside. Anyway, I've heard of people being kicked out of the TS on less convincing arguments. ;) But now that you've got me thinking, how can I prove that you really exist? Reports that people have seen you are a little suspect. We've even had reports of Alan Bain sightings here in America. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:36:56 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1292 Message-ID: To Vincent: > Is there also a possibility to use the mind in a way that it enriches the soul? "I'll make an attempt to answer your question, but my words may not be the best. The mind is tied to our actions, and is formed of knowledges. These many knowledges are each limited and are themselves the means of limiting our lives, making our physical activities habitual. Physical recreation frees the mind, and something that I am finding to be of paramount imporance to the spiritual enrichment of the soul is to Sabbath. My oppinion of mind is that they are altogether common, everyone has one, but without taking periodic rest of the sort that Sabbath implies anyones mind becomes controlling and tightly limiting, squeezing the ego into fits of outburst or disfunction. In this world of information bombardment peoples saturated minds are harboring impoverished souls. My advice is not to trust the limits that the mind imposes on your world, 1 Corinthians 13 states that love believes all things, does all things. We must constantly step back from the most ordinary things that we hold to be true, in that many of these 'evil' ideas serves only to limit the possibilities and reinforce our anoying habitual activities. Turn off the TV for a year maybe two, an aniversary of Zen like extistance can be illuminating. Peace be with you," Thank you very much for that answer - and peace to you too. I actually more ment the question in a practical way, kind of how could everybody start to try out what we are theoretically discussing here, so that they might be able to live it, if they wish to. Kind of having Sabbath daily. Like for example: turn off TV and start to find your first picture. How does it look like? Are you able to change it? If you don't have a picture go back to a moment in your life you enjoyed and felt perfectly well and try to imagine it (and now maybe you find out that it is not easy to remeber such a situation ...). Anybody found a picture? I simply feel that we have to practise, to help each other to live "love, creativity, God, or however you wish to name it" and not only always just talk about it theoretically. Just my opinion - all the very best for you, Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:27:14 -0400 (EDT) From: CPickar965@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1293 Message-ID: <971024062713_376091155@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-22 20:46:27 EDT, you write: To Titus: << Count your blessings. Your Pentium could still be using DOS. "Suppose Edgar Allan Poe Used a Computer" >> KUDO'S and Loud applause's - This poem sounds like many a evening at home. crp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:34:53 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1293 Message-ID: To Alan: "I think of many people as God-sent." So do I. To Titus: "Suppose Edgar Allan Poe Used a Computer" ... Thank you for that - it is great. To doss: "Truth can be stranger than fiction." Maybe you might be quite right with that - ... "It is not my needs. It is just track down your quote." Well then, track it down if it pleases you ... I wish you peace, Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:29:02 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1294 Message-ID: To Alan: >(It feels as if these people are operating in a special zone called dullness. Sometimes it's called "Theosophy." A wise men once also called it "lukewarm" ... To Bart: "It is a common error to consider an apostle to be another word for a disciple of a religious teacher. It was that which I was addressing." But I was not - apostle is the Greek expression for a person with clearvoyance which the disciple is lacking at the beginning. From what I have learnt, "schools" are parted since ever because a disciple needs a different form of training than an apostle does. Even Jesus divded his scholars up like this - but I guess you know that very well yourself. I am still looking for the sanskrit word for the apostle but I have to wait until my dictionnary arrives. "I simply got tired of writing, "I have no idea what you're talking about", yet again." Well - it seems that by pure chance (?) I was cratering an iconical sculpture kind of your Ming vase. Don't worry you have not missed much. It was more a lesson for me that silence is golden. To All: Is there anybody here who has a proper definition for the word "monade"? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:36:28 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971024143628.00d73fa8@mail.eden.com> At 10:22 PM 10/22/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >Plus'). All just waiting there for the price of a phone call. So who >needs to pay $30 or even $10 to an increasingly anachronistic >institution? Those of us on the internet have this great mailing list >(thanks again to the foresight and enterprise of John Mead!) where we >can discuss theosophical ideas, controversies - whatever we will, and >from any part of the world where there is internet access. > Alan: In the USA, they did not stop with the annual dues. There is an additional fees (not a donation) charged for those regular dues paying members who want to join the the "National Lodge". Of course this is purely optional. And of course there is always the usual justification of how we need to recover the costs etc. etc. The work done by various parties/organizations to make more of the Theosophical Texts available on line (for free -- yes no dues, no access charges, nothing real or hidden cost) is very commendable when the largest TS group - when it looks like TSA (Adyar) is asleep on this critical issue and may be missing the boat once and for all. The more I see it, more I feel that the future of TS is looking very good only because of Internet (just look at the falling membership with no end in sight and closure of branches) and it is the saviour to spread the msg. I am sure the Real Founders are watching all this and with the hope of seeing a better world tomorrow. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:26:02 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Digest 1294 Message-ID: <3450CC1A.2228@sprynet.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > To All: Is there anybody here who has a proper definition for the word > "monade"? If you are referring to "monad", then the answer is probably no. The concept I have of monad is based on a definition of consciousness as a field effect of matter/energy (or at least would be considered so if one could measure the effect consciousness has on reality, which I believe we will be able to achieve, someday). In any case, given that assumption (and it is a BIG assumption), then a monad might be defined as a level of consciousness that is self-aware. This would explain, of course, how you can have monads within monads, and how there is a single Monad for the Unity. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:43:10 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: defining "Monad" Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19971024124310.00872230@imagiware.com> At 12:28 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >Nicole Suter wrote: >> To All: Is there anybody here who has a proper definition for the word >> "monade"? I have a quick attempt at writing the theosophical definition, as I understand it, of the Monad. This was something I wrote here in early 1996. -- Eldon ---- Alexis: [I'm commenting on a note to Bee. It seems like an interesting subject, and I'd like to toss out a few ideas that I've culled from Theosophy.] The Monad is the eternal part of our being. It remains in its pristine, pure state, untouched by the evolution into matter. It is eternal selfness (rather than Self, since it's above the notion of "me"). Participating in the evolution through a series of existences on the lower planes, it sends forth a ray of consciousness. (It starts doing something that it has limited experience with, and is limited and frustrated in self-expression in doing this thing, which is to exist as a being on the planes of manifest existence.) That ray of consciousness is first an unconscious form, subject to the forces of nature and lacking self-consciousness. That form is called a "soul", although we could also say "body". The urge towards self-consciousness leads to existences on lower and lower planes, until a certain limit is reached, and the Monad is satisfied that something is starting to happen. At that point, the direction of evolution changes, and the downward arc ends, replaced by the upward arc. That point of transition happens as the first spark of self-consciousness is awakened and the Monad has a new garmet of consciousness, an "ego". Following the upward arc of evolution, that spark of self-consciousness is awakened in higher and higher bodies or souls, making an animal ego, a human ego, an higher human ego, an spiritual ego, and an divine ego, as the Monad's vehicles awaken on higher and higher planes. The Monad becomes fully manifest when reaching full self-consciousness on all the planes on which it exists, after which it can either withdraw the ray of consciousness into itself, and exit the evolutionary drama on our earth, or continue in the world, as a source of hope and inspiration for others trailing behind. Regarding spiritual failures, there are different degrees of failure. There is a wasted lifetime, when there are no worthy sentiments nor notable learning experiences, nothing for the reincarnating ego to retain and carry forward to the next life. There are evolutionary failures. Some are dropouts from the process, akin to someone leaving school for the remaining school year, having therefore to start school the next year in the same grade as before. Others are closer to someone dying, and having to start off again as a baby, going through the entire schooling process again. Life is not perfect, mistakes of different degree can be made, and sometimes things simply don't work out. A third type of failure is extremely rare, and would correspond in this analogy to a student dying, then being reborn in a less advanced country, therein to restart the education process in the more primitive circumstances. In this case, we have a Monad that fails in its attempt in evolution on our earth, on this cosmic plane, and is attracted to a future attemt at evolution on a planetary chain on a lower plane. (We're on the lowest plane that we can go *on this earth*, but there are other planetary chains with globes on yet lower planes.) >The material world is a necessary part of the evolution and >intensification of consciousness and awareness. This is a very important statement. It applies, in fact, to any plane of existence. The Monad seeks to exist "as a necessary part of the evolution and intensification of consciousness and awareness". Some Monads may not be satisfied with the intensification of consciousness that is provided by the limitations of our physical plane, and are drawn to seek rebirth in yet lower planes. The Brothers of the Shadow may be those Monads, seeking *submergence* rather than *transcendence*. In our infinite, unbounded universe, there are no limits in any direction. There are likely as many *lower* planes as *higher* ones, and some Monads may individually seeking their way downwards, even though they are out of place among us, among the upward-bound class or family of Monads that we find ourselves belonging to. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:19:33 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: <3450D8A5.6FD7@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > The work done by various parties/organizations to make more of the > Theosophical Texts available on line (for free -- yes no dues, no access > charges, nothing real or hidden cost) is very commendable when the largest > TS group - when it looks like TSA (Adyar) is asleep on this critical issue > and may be missing the boat once and for all. You are extremely naive if you think that these parties/organizations are doing this for free. Money is being spent for these services; it is just that the end user doesn't pay in the form of money. What IS being spent is allowing those who pay the money to make the decisions of what is seen or not seen; how the doctrine is defined or not defined. The New York Lodge has some major benefactors, but these benefactors have seen to it that the Lodge is largely self-supporting. They realized that even they should not define what is and is not proper in Theosophy, and the only way to be free of the influence of the major donors is financial independence. As a result, the narrow mindedness and censorship that people here seem to find in other Theosophical organizations are relatively absent in the New York Lodge. And those who run the Lodge are not those hand-picked by the PTB, but those who do the most physical work for the Lodge. The working philosophy here is, "If you think you can do a better job, you are welcome to try." And if there is a disagreement as to how something is done, the ones who actually have to live with the result are given a strong benefit of the doubt. Now, for example, Dr. Bain is doing a wonderful job, from what I have hears, with TSI (btw, is there a way that those who are not members to see some of the digests, so that they may determine better if they wish to become members or not, before having to join?). And he runs it according to his philosophy. There is no charge to the members, but the list is somewhat dependent on Dr. Bain's work and the maintenance of this list server. If someone is disruptive to the list (and who is to define disruptive?) then there is a choice between possibly allowing the group to be spammed into oblivion, or possibly throwing someone out because of a different point of view. And the decision would be entirely up to Dr. Bain. Remember, TINSTAAFL applies, even in Theosophy. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:40:26 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971024194026.01241a98@mail.eden.com> At 01:25 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> The work done by various parties/organizations to make more of the >> Theosophical Texts available on line (for free -- yes no dues, no access >> charges, nothing real or hidden cost) is very commendable when the largest >> TS group - when it looks like TSA (Adyar) is asleep on this critical issue >> and may be missing the boat once and for all. > > You are extremely naive if you think that these parties/organizations >are doing this for free. Money is being spent for these services; it is >just that the end user doesn't pay in the form of money. What IS being >spent is allowing those who pay the money to make the decisions of what >is seen or not seen; how the doctrine is defined or not defined. > I understand your response. I should have clarified further that "from the end-user" point of view, access to the Theosophical Texts is *free*. Everyone understands that a lot of money and efforts that goes to any effort. We would not have modern Theosophy and TS(s) but for the sacrifices made by so many people especially HPB. She gave her life to it and gave prime of her life and worked day in and day out (-- not at the current Olcott official hours.) I have no problems with any of the web sites being selective in what they put up. ( Someone has to make a choice due to limited time, money and effort). However when Theosophical Classics such as ML to APS, Key to Theosophy, SD are made available for free to the users, it is a invaluable contribution towards the spread of Theosophy which is after all the main purpose of starting TS. > > Now, for example, Dr. Bain is doing a wonderful job, from what I have >hears, with TSI (btw, is there a way that those who are not members to >see some of the digests, so that they may determine better if they wish >to become members or not, before having to join?). And he runs it >according to his philosophy. There is no charge to the members, but the >list is somewhat dependent on Dr. Bain's work and the maintenance of >this list server. If someone is disruptive to the list (and who is to >define disruptive?) then there is a choice between possibly allowing the >group to be spammed into oblivion, or possibly throwing someone out >because of a different point of view. And the decision would be entirely >up to Dr. Bain. While Dr. Bain can speak for himself about TI, let me add my 0.02. All the old messages are archived and you should be able to get a list by sending a msg to listserv@vnet.net with the following in the body of the msg: index ti-l and then by issuing a get command the individual archive can be retrieved and read at leisure. Secondly like theos-xxxxx (unlike other moderated=censored mail lists) it is totally uncensored and almost anything goes and I can't even dream that either Dr. Bain or John Mead ever thinking of throwing out anyone for anything (except for any illegal or criminal activity). It is this freedom or fear of action from the list owner that makes the theos-xxx and ti-l such a free forum where everyone is free to discuss anything they want to. Of course those who are used life long to controlled environment may not like such a free environment and may even be afraid of it. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:19:53 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Hello Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm back and lurking. Unfortunately, that's all I have time for. Does anyone know how I can get a list of subscribers? Just want to know whether familiar names are still around. Hope everyone's been well. Too bad I don't have the time to degrade the quality of the list, Bart. ;o) Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:23:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Theosophy International Message-ID: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises men and women who, of their own free choice, subscribe to the spirit of the three objects first formulated by the Theosophical Society, but in a more up-to-date form based on suggestions by members of the internet community, and expressed thus: 1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family, without distinction of sex, sexual orientation, creed, class, or color. 2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion, theosophy, philosophy, and the scientific method, according to individual ability and inclination. 3. To investigate mysteries of nature and unrealized human potential and abilities, with an underlying respect for all life. THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is a voluntary network, whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or allegiance to the three objects, and to be registered as having done so. No belief system is required - nor assumed to be held - by any member. All have the right to choose, without trace of coercion, the path by which they seek understanding. There are no fees, no subscriptions, although voluntary donations and/or contributions could be made to specific projects or even individuals for particular and specified purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not need rules, whether anyone participates in or supports any such activity is an entirely personal matter. We hope to be of service, and to share what we have in amity with other theosophical, occult, and esoteric organizations, as also with like-minded individuals. ------------------------------- To join Theosophy International, send an e-mail message asking to be registered to TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk or give your name and other details you wish to share to whoever introduced you. To join in disussion about promoting "TI" objects, send an e-mail to listproc@vnet.net with no subject header and the message subscribe TI-L [your name] To join in other theosophical discussion, also send the massage subscribe theos-l [your name] Do not use a "sig" file - you will get an extra "error" message! ---------------------------------------------------------------- "TI" has 85 members in sixteen countries. Alan Bain IMPORTANT NOTE: Although TI members are active on the various theosophy mailing lists (theos-l, theos-buds, etc., and which are maintined by John Mead (himself a TI member), none of the theos mailing lists is owned or exclusively reserved for members of Theosophy International, Nor is TI as such a part of any other theosophical organisation. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:00:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Am I real? Message-ID: In message <199710240155.SAA18692@palrel1.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >Oh, Alan! My quote was an aside. > >Anyway, I've heard of people being kicked out of the TS on less convincing >arguments. ;) > >But now that you've got me thinking, how can I prove that you really exist? >Reports that people have seen you are a little suspect. We've even had reports >of Alan Bain sightings here in America. True. Chicago, St. Paul/Minneapolis, Long island, Pontiac, IL., El Paso, IL. [Yes there IS one] ..... I even saw myself once in New Jersey. I think I was about to fly home (with airline assistance - I had not yet reached arhat status) Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:21:40 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: In message <3450D8A5.6FD7@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > Now, for example, Dr. Bain is doing a wonderful job, from what I have >hears, with TSI Dr. Bain does very little except promote Theosophy International. This is *not* the same thing as the ti-l mailing list. > (btw, is there a way that those who are not members to >see some of the digests, so that they may determine better if they wish >to become members or not, before having to join?). And he runs it >according to his philosophy. He doesn't run it at all. Members are simply those who, by whatever means, decide to "sign up" (usually by e-mail) to the TI "statement of intent. When we first set it up there was a great deal of discussion and voting by the founding members (about a quarter of those currently signed up - 85) on how to formulate and word this statement of intent. I suggest you read it carefully (I am posting it to this list again after a long period). > There is no charge to the members, but the >list is somewhat dependent on Dr. Bain's work and the maintenance of >this list server. It maintains itself, courtesy of vnet.net and John Mead. Without them we would all have to find another way of meeting. > If someone is disruptive to the list (and who is to >define disruptive?) then there is a choice between possibly allowing the >group to be spammed into oblivion, or possibly throwing someone out >because of a different point of view. And the decision would be entirely >up to Dr. Bain. In theory the same is true of theos-l, and the same decision would be open to John Mead. The mailing list [little used] ti-l is, like this one, unmoderated, and subscribers -who do not have to be TI members - can post whaever they like, including "Alan Bain is a big shit" > > Remember, TINSTAAFL applies, even in Theosophy. *Especially* in theosophy - it's called karma. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:36:34 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hello Message-ID: <9WqJ+CACETU0Ew$t@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , Thoa Thi-Kim Tran writes >Hi folks, > >I'm back and lurking. Unfortunately, that's all I have time for. Does >anyone know how I can get a list of subscribers? Just want to know whether >familiar names are still around. Hope everyone's been well. Too bad I >don't have the time to degrade the quality of the list, Bart. ;o) > >Thoa > e-mail listproc@vnet.net as follows (no subject header): rev theos-l (No sig either) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:52:46 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Theosophist in Phoenix area Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971025025246.0067a0a8@mail.eden.com> I am copying a msg I just posted on theosophy newsgroup. Anyone out there who can help this inquirer? mkr ========================= Send e-mail to theos@netcom.com which is the e-mail address of Theosophical Society in America with a request and I am sure they will be able to help you to locate a Theosophist in Phoenix area. If you do run into any problems, please contact me and I will try to locate someone. I am also copying this to theos-l, a theosophy maillist and someone there may be able to provide a contact. On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:18:15 -0700, Peggy and Rick wrote: >I heard about Theosophy from a lady who taught me Past life regression >and Spirit releasement techniques in San Clemente California. (Janet >Buell) She has a few books published and gives seminars, but not on >Theosophy. I remember reading her book on it and thinking how much sense >it made. I would love to meet some Theosophist here in the Phoenix Area. >Rick V wrote: >> >> I am not sure of it. First time I am hearing about it. Where did you >> learn about it? >> >> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:19:03 -0700, Peggy and Rick >> wrote: >> >> >Would love to read and participate. Have a strong interest in it. Is it >> >true a lot of the founding fathers of the US were >> >Theosophists?? >> >============================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:36:17 -0400 (EDT) From: CPickar965@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1291 Message-ID: <971025063616_1034015075@mrin42.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-22 14:11:30 EDT, you write: To Titus, << Thus always. Seems to be part of the game. Ann Ree Colton identified three types found in groups: the pidgeons, the doves, and the eagles. >> Thanks for the return conversation. Could you recommend some books on community building or the like? I'm not familiar with Colton's work. I have found study along these lines (community, groups, teamwork) most beneficial. E-mail me if you prefer. Many thanks, crp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:42:19 -0400 (EDT) From: CPickar965@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1289 Message-ID: <971025064219_74206052@mrin44.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-20 11:06:12 EDT, you write: Nicole, << Thank you for your interesting explanations - I think unconditional love naturally happens between a mother and her child as long as it is a baby.>> I found your concepts on unconditional love extremely interesting. I have a problem with unconditional love being related to "naturally happens between a mother and her child as long as it is a baby." I have read and heard about to many cases of child abuse or neglect to believe unconditional love is a natural function and heard of many women (and know a few) who think of children as a commodity (status) to a reflection of themselves, or have a fleeting interest in the child as a baby and and looses it once the child starts to reason and no longer can be dictated to. None of those situations qualify, IMO, as unconditional love. While I think in some cases unconditional love happens it is selective cases. Recent studies have discovered human's have "no mothering instinct." However, studies can be wrong or misleading. <<"Our inability to drop our shield without ego getting in the way, or being a doormat for other and permitting the same of others is IMHO, the root of a great deal of our personal problems in relationships, jobs and community." Is it the ego or the desire of possession which can easily lead to obsession and is often "sold" as "unconditional love"? >> Your making an excellent point. People who seem to be able to love unconditionally do seem a little "obsessed". OTH, are you saying no one can love unconditionally without self-interest? Sounds Freudian. On the flip side Viktor Frankl's work regarding "Man's Search for Meaning" indicated this to be a natural and even healthy function (love for one thing that you pursue such as art.) Most Theosophical teaching, I have read - (HPB, Judge, Besant, De Purucker, Bailey) ties into, at some point, unconditional love. This is an interesting question worth much reflection. They, also, talk of the need of "letting go of personality'" or "lower self" which I interpret as shields. I wonder if we can ever take our "self" out of anything. I.E. love without a degree of self interest and does unconditional love necessarily predicate a lack of self interest? In the "Key to Theos" HPB was pretty clear about expecting the "same as" not more or less. I suspect that implies a degree of self interest. All very interesting reflection material. crp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:00:31 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: defining "Monad" Message-ID: <3451990F.43F3@dmv.com> > >Nicole Suter wrote: > > >> To All: Is there anybody here who has a proper definition for the word > >> "monade"? > Monads are very simple beings composed of spiritual substance. Leibntz believed that all things are composed of monads. There are there are constant exchanges of monads going on around us that can be see in the proper state of consciousness. Probably the most common monads are black, but there are monads that are colorless. I don't know how many colors are represented in monads since my experience with them is limited. Peace, Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:30:10 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1289 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971025133010.013193f4@mail.eden.com> At 06:43 AM 10/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-10-20 11:06:12 EDT, you write: > >Nicole, > ><< > Thank you for your interesting explanations - I think unconditional love > naturally happens between a mother and her child as long as it is a baby.>> > >I found your concepts on unconditional love extremely interesting. I have a >problem with unconditional love being related to "naturally happens between a >mother and her child as long as it is a baby." I have read and heard about >to many cases of child abuse or neglect to believe unconditional love is a >natural function and heard of many women (and know a few) who think of >children as a commodity (status) to a reflection of themselves, or have a >fleeting interest in the child as a baby and and looses it once the child >starts to reason and no longer can be dictated to. None of those situations >qualify, IMO, as unconditional love. While I think in some cases >unconditional love happens it is selective cases. Recent studies have >discovered human's have "no mothering instinct." However, studies can be >wrong or misleading. > > <<"Our inability to drop our shield without ego getting in the way, or >being a > doormat for other and permitting the same of others is IMHO, the root of a > great deal of our personal problems in relationships, jobs and community." > > Is it the ego or the desire of possession which can easily lead to obsession >and > is often "sold" as "unconditional love"? >> > >Your making an excellent point. People who seem to be able to love >unconditionally do seem a little "obsessed". OTH, are you saying no one can >love unconditionally without self-interest? Sounds Freudian. On the flip >side Viktor Frankl's work regarding "Man's Search for Meaning" indicated this >to be a natural and even healthy function (love for one thing that you pursue >such as art.) Most Theosophical teaching, I have read - (HPB, Judge, Besant, >De Purucker, Bailey) ties into, at some point, unconditional love. This is >an interesting question worth much reflection. They, also, talk of the need >of "letting go of personality'" or "lower self" which I interpret as shields. > I wonder if we can ever take our "self" out of anything. I.E. love without >a degree of self interest and does unconditional love necessarily predicate a >lack of self interest? In the "Key to Theos" HPB was pretty clear about >expecting the "same as" not more or less. I suspect that implies a degree of >self interest. All very interesting reflection material. > >crp > I think the issue of unconditional love is a very important one for consideration. Words have different meaning for different individuals. Love is a word each one of us will define in our own way. Any amount of definition is not the real thing. Having said the above, I think, in my simplistic thinking, it *may* be a deep unselfish interest in the welfare of the other person(s) and be willing to act for the best interests of the other person(s) as one sees it and be ready to sacrifice (however small or big) for the other person(s). How it is seen in action will have to be very situational since no two situations are the same. Just my 0.02 mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:52:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Am I real? Message-ID: <971025115220_628095961@mrin42.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-24 19:34:12 EDT, you write: >True. Chicago, St. Paul/Minneapolis, Long island, Pontiac, IL., El >Paso, IL. [Yes there IS one] ..... I even saw myself once in New Jersey. >I think I was about to fly home (with airline assistance - I had not yet >reached arhat status) > >Alan :-) Are you sure you're not Elvis in disguise? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:50:35 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: <3452235A.19D9@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > Secondly like theos-xxxxx (unlike other moderated=censored mail lists) it is > totally uncensored and almost anything goes and I can't even dream that > either Dr. Bain or John Mead ever thinking of throwing out anyone for > anything (except for any illegal or criminal activity). It is this freedom > or fear of action from the list owner that makes the theos-xxx and ti-l such > a free forum where everyone is free to discuss anything they want to. Of > course those who are used life long to controlled environment may not like > such a free environment and may even be afraid of it. I can certainly imagine reasons, but it would not be because of simple disagreement. For example, let's say someone sent 100 messages a day saying, "You are all going to rot in hell unless you accept Jesus as your personal savior." The repetitive messages would render the list unreadable. Then comes the tough call. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:57:05 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: <345224E1.942@sprynet.com> My thanks to Dr. Bain for his clarifications. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:00:17 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971025210017.01325f60@mail.eden.com> At 12:53 PM 10/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> Secondly like theos-xxxxx (unlike other moderated=censored mail lists) it is >> totally uncensored and almost anything goes and I can't even dream that >> either Dr. Bain or John Mead ever thinking of throwing out anyone for >> anything (except for any illegal or criminal activity). It is this freedom >> or fear of action from the list owner that makes the theos-xxx and ti-l such >> a free forum where everyone is free to discuss anything they want to. Of >> course those who are used life long to controlled environment may not like >> such a free environment and may even be afraid of it. > > I can certainly imagine reasons, but it would not be because of simple >disagreement. For example, let's say someone sent 100 messages a day >saying, "You are all going to rot in hell unless you accept Jesus as >your personal savior." The repetitive messages would render the list >unreadable. Then comes the tough call. > > Bart Lidofsky > If I saw such a repetitive msg, then sender may desparately need immediate help. I will try to locate him/her and even try to see if I can find someone in that area who can provide psychiatric help. That would be my reaction. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:36:23 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: In message <345224E1.942@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >My thanks to Dr. Bain for his clarifications. > > Bart Lidofsky Received. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:42:44 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A New Foundation Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19971025210017.01325f60@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >> I can certainly imagine reasons, but it would not be because of simple >>disagreement. For example, let's say someone sent 100 messages a day >>saying, "You are all going to rot in hell unless you accept Jesus as >>your personal savior." The repetitive messages would render the list >>unreadable. Then comes the tough call. >> >> Bart Lidofsky >> >If I saw such a repetitive msg, then sender may desparately need immediate >help. I will try to locate him/her and even try to see if I can find someone >in that area who can provide psychiatric help. That would be my reaction. > >mkr As Doss knows, we have had regular bombardment from a Christian fundamentalist on theos-l in the past, as many of us will recall. Most people either answered him on his own terms (which he didn't like) or else ignored him. Eventually we were all dismissed as children of the devil or some such and he hasn't been heard from since. He even gave us something to think about in theosophical terms, viz., what is the best way for a theosophically, and therefore hopefully considerate person, to treat such e-mail and its sender? IOW, he did us some good, even if we didn't care for his message. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:34:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Am I real? Message-ID: In message <971025115220_628095961@mrin42.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-10-24 19:34:12 EDT, you write: > >>True. Chicago, St. Paul/Minneapolis, Long island, Pontiac, IL., El >>Paso, IL. [Yes there IS one] ..... I even saw myself once in New Jersey. >>I think I was about to fly home (with airline assistance - I had not yet >>reached arhat status) >> >>Alan :-) > >Are you sure you're not Elvis in disguise? I ain't nothing but a hound dog. > Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:33:52 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: defining "Monad" Message-ID: <199710260233.UAA29324@mailmx.micron.net> Vincent wrote: >Monads are very simple beings composed of spiritual substance. Leibntz >believed that all things are composed of monads. Leibniz also wrote of different "types" of monads - such as: simple monads, found in nature and animals; "self-conscious" monads, found in humans; and "spiritual" monads, which are in direct contact with God and work on a moral level. Since monads are also "living things," Leibniz believed the universe is an organic universe, full of life. He also claimed each monad contained the entire universe - past, present, and future - within it. . .. Fascinating. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:53:05 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Theosophical Classics on CD Rom Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971026135305.013550c4@mail.eden.com> Does anyone know if Theosophical Classics, such as SD, ML to APS, Voice, Light on the Path, Isis Unveiled etc. is available on CD-ROM? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:22:38 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Am I real? Message-ID: <971026112237_1668179260@mrin43.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-25 20:14:27 EDT, you write: >I ain't nothing but a hound dog. >> >Alan It's nice that you and the cats get along so well. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:26:54 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Am I real? Message-ID: In message <971026112237_1668179260@mrin43.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-10-25 20:14:27 EDT, you write: > >>I ain't nothing but a hound dog. >>> >>Alan > >It's nice that you and the cats get along so well. > >Chuck the Heretic Miaow! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:33:27 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome (1) Message-ID: Theosophy International Welcomes Jim Allen! Personal e-mail welcomes as below. Alan ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Hi!, I would like to be registered. Thank you, Jim Allen Allenfam@infocom.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:39:50 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Joining Theosophy International Message-ID: Theosophy International Welcomes Anthony K. Kang! E-mail welcomes to akkang@mail.posri.re.kr Any helpful advice is best sent directly to Anthony at this stage, as he is not yet subscribed to the mailing lists. Alan ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Dear Dr. A.M.Bain, Thank you for your kind response. This is my snail mail address: You may publish my snail mail address. Samtan Bldg. 947-7 Daechi-dong Kangnam-gu Seoul Korea 135-280 Phone : 82-2-3457-8140 Fax : 82-2-561-0657 I am only a beginner in the study of theosophy. I hope that I can get lots of help and advice from Theosophy International. Is there sort of a systematic course to learn about theosophy? Can you send me some material through either e-mail or snail mail? I would like to express my sincere appreciation for your help in advance. Anthony K. Kang From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:53:30 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: HPB's Article Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971027025330.00d76408@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is an article by HPB touching upon some very important issues of practical importance. Thanks to www.blavatsky.org for providing it on-lin. I will be posting a follow-up msg commenting on some of the items discussed in the article. MKR ============================= LODGES OF MAGIC Article by H. P. Blavatsky When fiction rises pleasing to the eye, Men will believe, because they love the lie; But Truth herself, if clouded with a frown, Must have some solemn proofs to pass her down. CHURCHILL. ONE of the most esteemed of our friends in occult research, propounds the question of the formation of "working Lodges" of the Theosophical Society, for the development of adeptship. If the practical impossibility of forcing this process has been shown once, in the course of the theosophical movement, it has scores of times. It is hard to check one's natural impatience to tear aside the veil of the Temple. To gain the divine knowledge, like the prize in a classical tripos, by a system of coaching and cramming, is the ideal of the average beginner in occult study. The refusal of the originators of the Theosophical Society to encourage such false hopes, has led to the formation of bogus Brotherhoods of Luxor (and Armley Jail?) as speculations on human credulity. How enticing the bait for gudgeons in the following specimen prospectus, which a few years ago caught some of our most earnest friends and Theosophists. "Students of the Occult Science, searchers after truth, and Theosophists who may have been disappointed in their expectations of Sublime Wisdom being freely dispensed by HINDU MAHATMAS, are cordially invited to send in their names to ...., when, if found suitable, they can be admitted, after a short probationary term, as Members of an Occult Brotherhood, who do not boast of their knowledge or attainments, but teach freely" (at £1 to £5 per letter?), "and without reserve" (the nastiest portions of P. B. Randolph's "Eulis"). "all they find worthy to receive" (read: teachings on a commercial basis; the cash going to the teachers, and the extracts from Randolph and other "love-philter" sellers to the pupils!) If rumour be true, some of the English rural districts, especially Yorkshire, are overrun with fraudulent astrologers and fortune-tellers, who pretend to be Theosophists, the better to swindle a higher class of credulous patrons than their legitimate prey, the servant-maid and callow youth. If the "lodges of magic," suggested in the following letter to the Editors of this Magazine, were founded, without having taken the greatest precautions to admit only the best candidates to membership, we should see these vile exploitations of sacred names and things increase an hundredfold. And in this connection, and before giving place to our friend's letter, the senior Editor of LUCIFER begs to inform her friends that she has never had the remotest connection with the so-called "H (ermetic) B (rotherhood) of L (uxor)," and that all representations to the contrary are false and dishonest. There is a secret body--whose diploma, or Certificate of Membership, is held by Colonel Olcott alone among modern men of white blood--to which that name was given by the author of "Isis Unveiled" for convenience of designation,2 but which is known among Initiates by quite another one, just as the personage known to the public under the pseudonym of "Koot Hoomi," is called by a totally different name among his acquaintance. What the real name of that society is, it would puzzle the "Eulian" phallicists of the "H. B. of L." to tell. The real names of Master Adepts and Occult Schools are never, under any circumstances, revealed to the profane; and the names of the personages who have been talked about in connection with modern Theosophy, are in the possession only of the two chief founders of the Theosophical Society. And now, having said so much by way of preface, let us pass on to our correspondent's letter. He writes: A friend of mine, a natural mystic, had intended to form, with others, a Branch T.S. in his town. Surprised at his delay, I wrote to ask the reason. His reply was that he had heard that the T.S. only met and talked, and did nothing practical. I always did think the T.S. ought to have Lodges in which something practical should be done. Cagliostro Understood well this craving of humans for something before their eyes, when he instituted the Egyptian Rite, and put it in practice in various Freemason lodges. There are many readers of LUCIFER in __________ shire. Perhaps in it there might be a suggestion for students to form such lodges for themselves, and to try, by their united wills, to develop certain powers in one of the number, and then through the whole of them in succession. I feel sure numbers would enter such lodges, and create a great interest for Theosophy. "A." In the above note of our venerable and learned friend is the echo of the voices of ninety-nine hundredths of the members of the Theosophical Society: one-hundredth only have the correct idea of the function and scope of our Branches. The glaring mistake generally made is in the conception of adeptship and the path thereunto. Of all thinkable undertakings that of trying for adeptship is the most difficult. Instead of being obtainable within a few years or one lifetime, it exacts the unremittent struggles of a series of lives, save in cases so rare as to be hardly worth regarding as exceptions to the general rule. The records certainly show that a number of the most revered Indian adepts became so despite their births in the lowest, and seemingly most unlikely, castes. Yet it is well understood that they had been progressing in the upward direction throughout many previous incarnations, and, when they took birth for the last time, there was left but the merest trifle of spiritual evolution to be accomplished, before they became great living adepts. Of course, no one can say that one or all of the possible members of our friend "A." 's ideal Cagliostrian lodge might not also be ready for adeptship, but the chance is not good enough to speculate upon: Western civilization seems to develop fighters rather than philosophers, military butchers rather than Buddhas. The plan "A." proposes would be far more likely to end in mediumship than adeptship. Two to one there would not be a member of the lodge who was chaste from boyhood and altogether untainted by the use of intoxicants. This is to say nothing of the candidates' freedom from the polluting effects of the evil influences of the average social environment. Among the indispensable pre-requisites for psychic development, noted in the mystical Manuals of all Eastern religious systems, are a pure place, pure diet, pure companionship, and a pure mind. Could "A." guarantee these? It is certainly desirable that there should be some school of instruction for members of our Society; and had the purely exoteric work and duties of the Founders been less absorbing, probably one such would have been established long ago. Yet not for practical instruction, on the plan of Cagliostro, which, by-the-bye, brought direful suffering upon his head, and has left no marked traces behind to encourage a repetition in our days. "When the pupil is ready, the teacher will be found waiting," says an Eastern maxim. The Masters do not have to hunt up recruits in special __________ shire lodges, nor drill them through mystical non-commissioned officers: time and space are no barriers between them and the aspirant; where thought can pass they can come. Why did an old and learned Kabalist like "A." forget this fact? And let him also remember that the potential adept may exist in the White chapels and Five Points of Europe and America, as well as in the cleaner and more "cultured" quarters; that some poor ragged wretch, begging a crust, may be "whiter-souled" and more attractive to the adept than the average bishop in his robe, or a cultured citizen in his costly dress. For the extension of the theosophical movement, a useful channel for the irrigation of the dry fields of contemporary thought with the water of life, Branches are needed everywhere; not mere groups of passive sympathisers, such as the slumbering army of churchgoers, whose eyes are shut while the "devil" sweeps the field; no, not such. Active, wide-awake, earnest, unselfish Branches are needed, whose members shall not be constantly unmasking their selfishness by asking "What will it profit us to join the Theosophical Society, and how much will it harm us?" but be putting to themselves the question "Can we not do substantial good to mankind by working in this good cause with all our hearts, our minds, and our strength?" If "A." would only bring his __________ shire friends, who pretend to occult leanings, to view the question from this side, he would be doing them a real kindness. The Society can get on without them, but they cannot afford to let it do so. Is it profitable, moreover, to discuss the question of a Lodge receiving even theoretical instruction, until we can be sure that all the members will accept the teachings as coming from the alleged source? Occult truth cannot be absorbed by a mind that is filled with preconception, prejudice, or suspicion. It is something to be perceived by the intuition rather than by the reason; being by nature spiritual, not material. Some are so constituted as to be incapable of acquiring knowledge by the exercise of the spiritual faculty; e.g. the great majority of physicists. Such are slow, if not wholly incapable of grasping the ultimate truths behind the phenomena of existence. There are many such in the Society; and the body of the discontented are recruited from their ranks. Such persons readily persuade themselves that later teachings, received from exactly the same source as earlier ones, are either false or have been tampered with by chelas, or even third parties. Suspicion and inharmony are the natural result, the psychic atmosphere, so to say, is thrown into confusion, and the reaction, even upon the stauncher students, is very harmful. Sometimes vanity blinds what was at first strong intuition, the mind is effectually closed against the admission of new truth, and the aspiring student is thrown back to the point where he began. Having jumped at some particular conclusion of his own without full study of the subject, and before the teaching had been fully expounded, his tendency, when proved wrong, is to listen only to the voice of his self-adulation, and cling to his views, whether right or wrong. 'Ihe Lord Buddha particularly warned his hearers against forming beliefs upon tradition or authority, and before having thoroughly inquired into the subject. An instance. We have been asked by a correspondent why he should not "be free to suspect some of the so-called 'precipitated' letters as being forgeries," giving as his reason for it that while some of them bear the stamp of (to him) undeniable genuineness, others seem from their contents and style, to be imitations. This is equivalent to saying that he has such an unerring spiritual insight as to be able to detect the false from the true, though he has never met a Master, nor been given any key by which to test his alleged communications. The inevitable consequence of applying his untrained judgment in such cases, would be to make him as likely as not to declare false what was genuine, and genuine what was false. Thus what criterion has any one to decide between one "precipitated" letter, or another such letter? Who except their authors, or those whom they employ as their amanuenses (the chelas and disciples), can tell? For it is hardly one out of a hundred "occult" letters that is ever written by the hand of the Master, in whose name and on whose behalf they are sent, as the Masters have neither need nor leisure to write them; and that when a Master says, "I wrote that letter," it means only that every word in it was dictated by him and impressed under his direct supervision. Generally they make their chela, whether near or far away, write (or precipitate) them, by impressing upon his mind the ideas they wish expressed, and if necessary aiding him in the picture-printing process of precipitation. It depends entirely upon the chela's state of development, how accurately the ideas may be transmitted and the writing-model imitated. Thus the non-adept recipient is left in the dilemma of uncertainty, whether, if one letter is false, all may not be; for, as far as intrinsic evidence goes, all come from the same source, and an are brought by the same mysterious means. But there is another, and a far worse condition implied. For all that the recipient of "occult" letters can possibly know, and on the simple grounds of probability and common honesty, the unseen correspondent who would tolerate one single fraudulent line in his name, would wink at an unlimited repetition of the deception. And this leads directly to the following. All the so-called occult letters being supported by identical proofs, they have all to stand or fall together. If one is to be doubted, then all have, and the series of letters in the "Occult World," "Esoteric Buddhism," etc., etc., may be, and there is no reason why they should not be in such a case-frauds, "clever impostures," and "forgeries," such as the ingenuous though stupid agent of the "S.P.R." has made them out to be, in order to raise in the public estimation the "scientific" acumen and standard of his "Principals." Hence, not a step in advance would be made by a group of students given over to such an unimpressible state of mind, and without any guide from the occult side to open their eyes to the esoteric pitfalls. And where are such guides, so far, in our Society? "They be blind leaders of the blind," both falling into the ditch of vanity and self-sufficiency. The whole difficulty springs from the common tendency to draw conclusions from insufficient premises, and play the oracle before ridding oneself of that most stupefying of all psychic anæsthetics--IGNORANCE. Lucifer, October, 1888 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:17:04 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: HPB's Article Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971027041704.006c8db0@mail.eden.com> In the HPB's article I just posted, one of the things that caught my attention was that the external appearance and external "culture" may not be an indication of the potential adept. Also when commenting on the the TS member, she is very emphatic that for the TS movement what was needed was not some "sheep" -- passive sympathisers, not such as the slumbering army of church-goers. She was very emphatic about "Active, wide-awake, earnest, unselfish Branches" whose members who will will put the question "Can we not do substantial good to mankind by working in this good cause with all our hearts, our minds, and our strength?" Could it be that the decline in the membership have somthing to do with ignoring her question? Something to think about. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:59:21 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: defining "Monad" Message-ID: To Bart: "If you are referring to "monad", then the answer is probably no. The concept I have of monad is based on a definition of consciousness as a field effect of matter/energy (or at least would be considered so if one could measure the effect consciousness has on reality, which I believe we will be able to achieve, someday). In any case, given that assumption (and it is a BIG assumption), then a monad might be defined as a level of consciousness that is self-aware. This would explain, of course, how you can have monads within monads, and how there is a single Monad for the Unity. " Thank you for the above. I have learnt it a little bit differently. When I looked up the word monade it stands for "original unity" and I am aware of it as a r a y of light. I have once been told that the "original untiy" refers to the throne of the archangels out of which seven archangels come. To Eldon: Thank you for all what you have been writing to me. I shall print it out and think about it in quiet. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:54:00 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Digest 1296 Message-ID: To Alan: "(with airline assistance - I had not yet reached arhat status)" Hi, hi, hi - thank you for that - an oracle of delphi says the date could be looked up in the akasha chronic To crp: "I found your concepts on unconditional love extremely interesting. I have a problem with unconditional love being related to "naturally happens between a mother and her child as long as it is a baby." I have read and heard about to many cases of child abuse or neglect to believe unconditional love is a natural function and heard of many women (and know a few) who think of children as a commodity (status) to a reflection of themselves, or have a fleeting interest in the child as a baby and and looses it once the child starts to reason and no longer can be dictated to. None of those situations qualify, IMO, as unconditional love. While I think in some cases unconditional love happens it is selective cases. Recent studies have discovered human's have "no mothering instinct." However, studies can be wrong or misleading. " Thank you for answering - it is very intersting what you write here. I agree with that what you write about "abuse or neglect" and I am also aware of such cases, but I do have some problems with the studies about "no mothering instinct". How did they try to find it out? "People who seem to be able to love unconditionally do seem a little "obsessed". I guess we missunderstood here. I was more referring to what you write above concerning "abuse or neglect" because desires seem to be part of the ego and only ego leads then to obsession. OTH, are you saying no one can love unconditionally without self-interest? Sounds Freudian." I never read Freud - but why should one love unconditionally without self- interest? "This is an interesting question worth much reflection." I agree 100 % - I guess we can discuss the "unconditional love" for ages. "They, also, talk of the need of "letting go of personality'" or "lower self" which I interpret as shields." Shields to me are borders, limits - every human beeing needs shields and needs personality and there is nothing l o w e r in a self but it is important just to be yourselves. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 9:04:51 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Headers Message-ID: <199710271404.JAA23373@leo.vsla.edu> Folks, 7 of the 12 headers in today's digest were something like "Theos-l digest xyz" instead of proper subjects. This has been going on for a week or more now. Please don't do this. When I can't tell at the beginning of the digest what is inside, I have usually deleted the whole thing unread rather than scroll through with my slow modem trying to figure out what's what. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:31:45 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: defining Monad Message-ID: To Vincent: "Monads are very simple beings composed of spiritual substance. Leibntz believed that all things are composed of monads. There are there are constant exchanges of monads going on around us that can be see in the proper state of consciousness. Probably the most common monads are black, but there are monads that are colorless." Maybe all things are composed of monads - sounds kind of logical though we might never be able to prove this. Please give me some time, I have to think about it. Why are the most common monads b l a c k? When I come accross to black I consider this to be a lower form of occultism. Colorless in my case is sometimes used for relocation. It allows highest speed. But I never thought about this as a monad. "I don't know how many colors are represented in monads since my experience with them is limited." Whether it has to do with a monad or not, to me all colors are represented but in a much more clearer way - I tried to paint it but found I am never able to paint such clear, wonderful and bright colors. Just my litte experience. Peace, Nicole To doss: "I think the issue of unconditional love is a very important one for consideration." So do I and sometimes "unconditional love" is dangerous. "Words have different meaning for different individuals." Agree 100 %. "Love is a word each one of us will define in our own way." And also live it its own way. "Any amount of definition is not the real thing." Agree 100 %. "Having said the above, I think, in my simplistic thinking, it *may* be a deep unselfish interest in the welfare of the other person(s) and be willing to act for the best interests of the other person(s) as one sees it and be ready to sacrifice (however small or big) for the other person(s)." That's wonderful what you think here. Out of a little live experience I had also to learn that sometimes this makes another person feel guilty because the other person considers him/herself not to be able to give it back and then he/her starts to hate you. I was more than once told, that I am wrong because I love too much. "How it is seen in action will have to be very situational since no two situations are the same." Quite right and each of us has its own free will - Just my 0,02 Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:54:19 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Headers Message-ID: To K. Paul Johnson: "Folks, 7 of the 12 headers in today's digest were something like "Theos-l digest xyz" instead of proper subjects. This has been going on for a week or more now. Please don't do this. When I can't tell at the beginning of the digest what is inside, I have usually deleted the whole thing unread rather than scroll through with my slow modem trying to figure out what's what." I feel that I might have started with this bad habit. It happend out of a lack of time. Please excuse me. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:24:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Headers Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971027172452.006ac638@mail.eden.com> At 09:05 AM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >Folks, 7 of the 12 headers in today's digest were something >like "Theos-l digest xyz" instead of proper subjects. This has >been going on for a week or more now. Please don't do this. >When I can't tell at the beginning of the digest what is >inside, I have usually deleted the whole thing unread rather >than scroll through with my slow modem trying to figure out >what's what. > Paul, I suppose you are referring to the Subject: area of the msg. I also wondered about it. I think that when anyone is on digest mode and hit the reply key, the subject area gets copied and we get the result you are referring to. .....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:59:16 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: HPB's Article Message-ID: <34556314.4D67@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > Hi > > Here is an article by HPB touching upon some very important issues of > practical importance. Thanks to www.blavatsky.org for providing it on-lin. I > will be posting a follow-up msg commenting on some of the items discussed in > the article. > > MKR > ============================= > > LODGES OF MAGIC Weird coincidence time. I just read that article for the first time earlier this afternoon. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:55:45 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: HPB's Article Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971028135545.006c18f4@mail.eden.com> At 11:02 PM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> Here is an article by HPB touching upon some very important issues of >> practical importance. Thanks to www.blavatsky.org for providing it on-lin. I >> will be posting a follow-up msg commenting on some of the items discussed in >> the article. >> >> MKR >> ============================= >> >> LODGES OF MAGIC > > Weird coincidence time. I just read that article for the first time >earlier this afternoon. > > Bart Lidofsky > May be you becoming psychically sensitive. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:32:52 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: HPB's Article Message-ID: To doss: I have been reading over that HPB article you posted. At home I have the Kosmogenesis, Antopogenesis and Esotheric works (which are not easy to buy and always change publisher, were out of print for a longer period - don't remerber exact dates but could look it up - and translated into German by Franz Hartmann) from HPB in German and I don't have any experience at all with Theosophical Societies, except what we discuss here on the list. But from how this article sounds like (the rythm of the language, the way the words are used) I feel HPB can not be the author of it. If HPB would write like this, I would never read it at all because I would consider this to be a waste of time. Can you explain to me please who said it was HPB writing it? Peace, Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:37:29 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Enclosures Message-ID: <199710281737.JAA10239@palrel1.hp.com> Nicole Suter wrote: > Shields to me are borders, limits - every human beeing needs shields > and needs personality and there is nothing l o w e r in a self but it is > important just to be yourselves. It is part of our nature to build enclosures. Enclosures, like all things, have good and bad uses. On the high side, they enable individuals, groups of people, or nations to have a unique identity. We are all looking for a frame to put around the picture of our Selves. Enclosures can be protective in that they exclude thoughts, influences, or people that would be interfere with the unfolding of that identity. They can be harmful if they are cruelly separative. Enclosures can act as forms to contain ideas. "This. Not That." I don't know about you, but if I'm flying or driving across the border of a different state or country, I can "feel" the change of enclosure. Animals seem to have a sense of territory and perhaps build their own etheric enclosures. A person's aura is a form of enclosure. It is protective, but also enables a person to hear their own thoughts. Sometimes I wonder if it gets "stuck" in some peculiar protective reflex mode. Have you ever been in a store or in a crowd where you seem to be "invisible"? You can't seem to catch anyone's attention. Just a random potpourri thrown together inspired by your comments. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:27:09 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: HPB's Article Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971028192709.0128eb3c@mail.eden.com> At 11:33 AM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >To doss: I have been reading over that HPB article you posted. >At home I have the Kosmogenesis, Antopogenesis and Esotheric >works (which are not easy to buy and always change publisher, >were out of print for a longer period - don't remerber exact dates >but could look it up - and translated into German by Franz Hartmann) >from HPB in German and I don't have any experience at >all with Theosophical Societies, except what we discuss here on >the list. But from how this article sounds like (the rythm of the >language, the way the words are used) I feel HPB can not be the >author of it. If HPB would write like this, I would never read >it at all because I would consider this to be a waste of time. >Can you explain to me please who said it was HPB writing it? > >Peace, > >Nicole It was published in a magazine Lucifer which was edited by HPB. There is the Collected Works of HPB which has all that she wrote and I think it may be in it also. The reason why I am referring to Collected Works is it is a work where one could get a good over view of her style and approach and her responses to very many things. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:11:46 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Quest Catalog Mailing Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971028201146.006c370c@mail.eden.com> Hi Yesterday the Quest Catalog was received at my office address but with some one else's name. Wondering what is going on, I called TPH and was told that the mailing outfit which printed the labels goofed -- mixed up names and address, I believe moved names one lable down. Some time ago many in our lodge got two copies of Quest. In this Halloween Season, real spooks seem to real active. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:14:28 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Quest Catalog Mailing Message-ID: <971028181428_1378003868@mrin42.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-28 15:13:53 EST, you write: > Some time ago many in our >lodge got two copies of Quest. In this Halloween Season, real spooks seem to >real active. Gerda and I were also gifted with extra copies of the big Quest this fall. The cats were happy to have the extra liner in their litter boxes. OK, fess up out there! Who put the curse on the Olcott computers? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:48:31 -0600 From: JRC Subject: Re: Quest Catalog Mailing Message-ID: <199710282349.QAA20357@server.umt.edu> >OK, fess up out there! Who put the curse on the Olcott computers? > >Chuck the Heretic > Probably Olcott. Har har. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:49:55 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Quest Catalog Mailing Message-ID: <34569643.28FB479B@micron.net> Doss wrote: > Hi > Yesterday the Quest Catalog was received at my office address but with > some > one else's name. Well, I'm glad that everyone is bountiful with the Quest Catalog - even cat boxes are enjoying the Quest Catalog. But not me - oh, no - nothing here in the mailbox - let me look again - nope, empty, empty, empty. That's ok, though, I can take it - I am woman. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:33:58 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Quest Catalog Mailing Message-ID: In message <971028181428_1378003868@mrin42.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >OK, fess up out there! Who put the curse on the Olcott computers? > >Chuck the Heretic Now don't try passing the buck - we have a complete dossier on you. The Masters (c/o Arhats Anonymous) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:52:02 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Quest Catalog Mailing Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971029035202.010fe6dc@mail.eden.com> At 08:49 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >Doss wrote: > >> Hi >> Yesterday the Quest Catalog was received at my office address but with >> some >> one else's name. > >Well, I'm glad that everyone is bountiful with the Quest Catalog - even >cat boxes are enjoying the Quest Catalog. But not me - oh, no - nothing >here in the mailbox - let me look again - nope, empty, empty, empty. > >That's ok, though, I can take it - I am woman. > >Kym > Some got two copies. Some did not get even a single one! What a mess up? Nothing to do with your gender. Gerda also got two copies. Many other women in our lodge also got two copies. If they cannot get the mailout done right, is it possible for similar mess up to take place both when ballots are sent out as well as when received back and tabulated. Computers can really mess up, like the price scanner in the grocery store. It may be a good idea to let the TSA's CPAs or some other CPA handle the ballots at the next elections -- out going, receipts and tabulation -- just like the Academy Awards -- and money well worth spending and also help some poor CPAs. Just an idea!!! mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:45:40 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Enclosures Message-ID: To Titus: Thank you for the random potpourri. I feel somehow speachless about the inspirations my comments made. I guess it could be a good idea if you help me to understand a little better. "It is part of our nature to build enclosures. Enclosures, like all things, have good and bad uses." I had to look up the word "enclosures" because I use this when I mail out a letter and enclose something. Are you referring to enclosure as a compound for an animal? "On the high side, they enable individuals, groups of people, or nations to have a unique identity." I believe that each of us is an individual with an individual identity. Groups of people or nations never have an unique identity but have a collective unconsiousness. If I meet a group for instance and do not feel comfortable there after three of four meetings I excuse myselves and don't go back anymore. "We are all looking for a frame to put around the picture of our Selves." That's an important thing to do. "Enclosures can be protective in that they exclude thoughts, influences, or people that would be interfere with the unfolding of that identity." I agree 100 % but not with the word "enclosures" if its meaning is defined in the sense of my first question. "They can be harmful if they are cruelly separative." Could you explain this please - how do you mean that? "I don't know about you, but if I'm flying or driving across the border of a different state or country, I can "feel" the change" So can I. There is another smell, another view, something different in the air etc. - I love to feel this. "Animals seem to have a sense of territory and perhaps build their own etheric enclosures." Maybe I misunderstood you, but this sounds a bit as if the " etheric enclosure" of the animal is valued higher than your own as a human beeing ... "A person's aura is a form of enclosure. It is protective, but also enables a person to hear their own thoughts." >From what I have learned, aura refers to charisma which is of course protective. "Sometimes I wonder if it gets "stuck" in some peculiar protective reflex mode." I wondered about this too and I guess this is what's happening when somebody steels your psychic energy. "Have you ever been in a store or in a crowd where you seem to be "invisible"? You can't seem to catch anyone's attention." I know this feeling very well - to me it happens when the energy loss due to sickness goes down to 55 %. Peace, Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:38:04 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: HPB's articel Message-ID: To doss: "It was published in a magazine Lucifer which was edited by HPB." When was this published - I have never heard anything about this magzine? "There is the Collected Works of HPB which has all that she wrote and I think it may be in it also. The reason why I am referring to Collected Works is it is a work where one could get a good over view of her style and approach and her responses to very many things." >From what I have read in the articel you posted to this list it feels like if the one who has published it had used kind of a wrong filter - the brown- black-magic-selling one. If you wish to answer, please be good to me, we are still recovering from a shock. Dullness & Style Co. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:23:12 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Quest Catalog Mailing Message-ID: <971029132026_2024572395@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-29 04:07:03 EST, you write: >Now don't try passing the buck - we have a complete dossier on you. > >The Masters (c/o Arhats Anonymous) > Nope, didn't do this one. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:30:32 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: HPB's articel Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971029203032.00c6fe98@mail.eden.com> At 11:38 AM 10/29/97 -0500, Nicole Suter wrote: >To doss: "It was published in a magazine Lucifer which was edited by HPB." > >When was this published - I have never heard anything about this magzine? > HPB published it in Lucifer, October, 1888. HPB died in 1891. I believe the magazine was published for a couple years around that time. If you look at some historical material re TS, you will find the magazine mentioned in them. >"There is the Collected Works of HPB which has all that she wrote and I think >it may be in it also. The reason why I am referring to Collected Works is >it is a >work where one could get a good over view of her style and approach and her >responses to very many things." > >>From what I have read in the articel you posted to this list it feels like if >the one who has published it had used kind of a wrong filter - the brown- >black-magic-selling one. If you wish to answer, please be good to me, we are >still recovering from a shock. > >Dullness & Style Co. > Cheer up! We are all inquirers and are trying to learn and a Theosophist must be good to every living being. Be assured that I am a nice person and if any one is offended, it is unintentional and my apologies are always there if perchance it happens unintentionally. I hope it has not happened to you. If so my apologies. All of us are surrounded by a lot of difficulties and problems and I will be the last person to add to any suffering to anyone even unintentionally. Let me try to respond as best as I can. HPB wrote the famous publications such as Isis Unveiled and Secret Doctrine -- both monumental. She was also a inveterate writer and had written quite a few articles in various magazines and journals. You will find the language in the books like Isis and SD quite different, when compared to the various articles she wrote refuting and rebutting many complaints and critical articles published by publication of her time. In the latter, you will see her very dynamic uncompromising style. I think that is what we see in her Lucifer article. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:21:33 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: HPB's articel Message-ID: <7dI4cSANGoV0EwGt@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19971029203032.00c6fe98@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >Cheer up! > >We are all inquirers and are trying to learn and a Theosophist must be good >to every living being. Be assured that I am a nice person Phew!!! Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:03:26 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Ram-Doss.- Can you tell us more? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971030140326.011b8248@mail.eden.com> At 07:41 AM 10/30/97 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Ram-Doss: > >This is very interesting, what you say about: Sri Ramalingaswamy in S. India. >Can you tell us more about him. I am writing this from my memory and the fact in general are accurate. When I find time, let me track down more specific recorded info. Sri. Ramalingaswamy's period precedes that of founding of TS in 1875. As a young boy he was unusal in that he was very devotional. Not educated formally and reasonably literate in the native language of Madras viz. Tamil. He composed many verses in praise of God. At one point in his life, may be when he was in early 20s, he started a society - Samarasa Sanmarga Sangam - the prime objective was to propogate Universal Brotherhood -- everyone being equal with no distinction of caste, creed, race, sex, color. This was very revolutionary when caste distinctions were very strong and had very negative effect on the society due to discrimination. There were very few who supported his efforts. After a time he gave up and closed the organization. He stated that he opened up the business and there being no customers, he had to close. At that time, he told his close followers that a time is going to come soon when people from Russia and America will be sent by the Mahatmas beyond Himalayas and then everyone will listen. While he was still in his 20s one day he told his followers that he has to retire or some such thing. He entered into a small one room building with no windows and asked that the front door to be sealed and no one should open it until after 6 months. As it is very common in India for Hata Yogis to perform all sorts of "miracles" no one thought anything unusual. Lo and behold when they opened up the front sealed door after 6 months, nothing was inside. Sri Ramalingam just disappeared. When HPB and Olcott was in Madras, one of the followers of Ramalingam told the above story to them in view of HPB and Olcott telling the public that the real founders of TS were the two Adepts who resided somewhere in the Himalays region. What astounded HPB was that Ramalingam was privy to the plans of the Adepts several years *before* HPB herself got orders to go to US and find Olcott and start TS. Some in the TS in India feel that Ramalingam himself must have been an Initiate due to the fact that information of this nature -- regarding future plans to start TS, is not likely to be divulged in such advance. There are also two very interesting facts about Ramalingam. In India, monks do not wear any footwear. He always wore a tennis shoe. Secondly, he always covered his head with a white cloth and was clean shaven, which again is not normal for a monk. It is said that what made him cover his head was that he was very very handsome young man and once in public a young lady came and embraced him. In S. India, public embracing between men and women in a no-no, even between husband and wife. For a monk it is totally wrong. After that incident, he always covered his head with a white cloth. Today, in the village where Ramalingam started the society, there is a temple. What it has is seven white veils surrounding a light. It is to symbolize the spirit covered by seven veils. No rituals, no formal priests, nothing. Hope these details interests some. MKR > >Also your references to the book "Is this Theosophy", By Ernest Wood, >are very informative. >I have tried to save in a file your informative references, articles and >historic text. >But lost it. > If you need any info, just post a msg. Myself or others will be able to gladly provide you with info. >May I have your permission to copy mail from you, into our Majordomo mail-list >theos-N@isholf.is - which is about to start working. > You are surely welcome to use the material. Anything I post anywhere can be used by anyone for any purpose they deem fit. No need to ask me. Just when it is useful to anyone, a note may make me feel good (a selfish trait!). >Best wishes, > >Sveinn Freyr >------------------------------------- > >> From: ramadoss@eden.com > >>Also everyone knows, the idea of Adepts, Jivanmuktas and Rishis is a >>commonly accepted tradition in India and for anyone who has lived in India >>the whole approach comes very naturally. >> >>There is also one incident of Sri Ramalingaswamy in S. India who started a >>society based on the First Object of TS almost a decade before 1875 and >>since there were no takers, he shut it down. When he did it, he told his >>close followers that the Mahatmas from beyond Himalayas would soon send >>people from Russia and USA -- he was very specific about these to countries >>-- and then every one will listen. This incident took place long before even >>HPB knew of her mission to start TS. This is all well documented historically. >> >>I guess there is lot more that goes on that we ordinary human beings are not >>aware of nor can we full understand the full picture. >> >>YMDMV From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:42:10 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: HPB's article Message-ID: To doss: "Cheer up!" I'll try to! "Theosophist must be good to every living being " Aha, that's a m u s t. Well, if that's a m u s t , I feel I am asked to much of. "Be assured that I am a nice person and if any one is offended, it is unintentional and my apologies are always there if perchance it happens unintentionally." That sound's a bit childish, but sometimes I can be childish too. "All of us are surrounded by a lot of difficulties and problems ..." That's quite right - seems to be life. Lot's of luck for you. "Let me try to respond as best as I can." Thank you for that. "You will find the language in the books like Isis and SD quite different, when compared to the various articles she wrote" And that is a very important difference. Approx. how many pages does your version of the Isis have? .."see her very dynamic uncompromising style" Do you think she had the feeling, that she must be good to every living beeing? I think she simply was herself, as she was, with all her "mistakes". These "mistakes" are often that what makes you feel fond of another person and not the his/hers so-called "perfect" sides. Would you feel fond of somebody else if he/her is all "perfect"? Lots of Sunlight for you, Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:52:00 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: HPB's articel Message-ID: To Alan: ">Cheer up! > >We are all inquirers and are trying to learn and a Theosophist must be good >to every living being. Be assured that I am a nice person Phew!!!" Do you know where I can sign an according insurance contract? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:36:41 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@azstarnet.com (Daniel H. Caldwell) Subject: A New Paper on K. Paul Johnson's Theories about the Theosophical Mahatmas Message-ID: <199710301736.KAA11086@mailhost.azstarnet.com> There is a new paper on K. Paul Johnson's theories about the Theosophical Masters entitled: The Theosophical Mahatmas: A Critique of Paul Johnson's New Myth by David Pratt September 1997 It is available on the WWW at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/johnson.htm From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:36:08 +1100 From: caruanar@matra.com.au Subject: Help on finding computer files for Lucifer Index(Edmonton- Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19971031063608.007b6cc0@mail.matra.com.au> Hello this is Richard Caruana from Australia. Does anyone know if the cumulative index printed for Lucifer (a very good piece of work I might add) by Edmonton Theosophical Society is on computer disc. If so, can this be copied and sent to Australian Section at tshq@austheos.org.au If anyone does know a contact for looking further into this please let me know email caruanar@matra.com.au kindest regards Richard Caruana P.S we are currently producing an index for Theosophy in Australia with the help of Gladney Oakley. It is hoped that eventually such an index would be put on CD-ROM and distributed to various Libraries. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:19:41 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: HPB and Mahatmas Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971030201941.006c4174@mail.eden.com> David Pratt in his writeup response to Paul Johnson's book states the following in the introductory para: (Ref: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/johnson.htm) ================================================================ According to HPB, Master Koot Hoomi was a Kashmiri Brahmin by birth, and Master Morya was a Rajput by birth. She first met M in his physical body in London in 1850/51, and she first met KH in 1868. The two masters generally lived in Tibet, though KH in particular travelled widely. They possessed highly developed occult powers, and were members of an adept Brotherhood that had existed for countless millennia. According to Paul Johnson, on the other hand, the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood is a myth, and HPB's portrayal of the mahatmas is largely fiction. He does not deny that beings like the masters of the theosophical tradition could exist, but he denies that HPB was ever in contact with, or the agent of, a brotherhood of spiritually advanced adepts. He contends that "Morya", "Koot Hoomi", etc., were the names of characters created by HPB, who drew their attributes partly from actual historical figures she had met, and partly from her imagination. ============================================================ While I am not a scholar in these historical matters, one issue that I would like to be explored is how the claims of Sri. Ramalingam fit into the overall picture relating to the Mahatmas and the Brotherhood. Sri Ramalingam's statement about 10 years before the inauguration to TS and his emphatic statement that people from Russia and America will be sent by Mahatmas beyond Himalayas is a very compelling fact that need to be addressed. The statement was made at a time when even HPB did not know of the plans of inauguration of TS which was to take place in 1875. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:12:12 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re:Enclosures Message-ID: <199710302212.OAA06835@palrel1.hp.com> Nicole Suter asked > I had to look up the word "enclosures" because I use this when I mail > out a letter and enclose something. Are you referring to enclosure > as a compound for an animal? I mean a kind of container that holds similar things in and keeps dissimilar things out. The container also imparts a shape and quality of its own. For example, Peter thought following Christ meant being a Jew, circumcised .. etc. Essentially he said what belongs inside the group of Christians is this, not that. It gives spirit form. (Regarding enclosures and identity) > I believe that each of us is an individual with an individual identity. > Groups of people or nations never have an unique identity but have > a collective unconsiousness. If I meet a group for instance and do not > feel comfortable there after three of four meetings I excuse myselves > and don't go back anymore. All the constituents of a group are influenced by its enclosure. It can sometimes be so solid you think you can cut it with a knife. To draw from something in my experience, I went before the board of directors of a Foundation to protest a few of their injustices toward my wife. They were not stupid people and all believed they were doing the right thing. For half an hour they recounted all (true) failings of my wife and why that proved they were right, parroting various aphorism and truisms. [BTW, most of us have the failings they focused on.] After hearing the tone of pious and solemn concern for me and my wife I began to think I was crazy for protesting, but in spite of my doubt I stuck to my guns. Literally as soon as I left the room my certainty returned and thought, "So *that's* what it's like for *them*. What a powerful force that makes them conform." (Titus) >> "Enclosures can be protective in that they exclude thoughts, influences, or >> people that would be interfere with the unfolding of that identity." > I agree 100 % but not with the word "enclosures" if its meaning is defined > in the sense of my first question. Hopefully, I've defined it a little better. (Titus) >> "They can be harmful if they are cruelly separative." > Could you explain this please - how do you mean that? Saying, "Theosophy isn't for that born again Bible thumping fundamentalist," is ok, but it is not ok to say, "We are superior," or "Tear down his religion." (Titus) >> "Animals seem to have a sense of territory and perhaps build their own >> etheric enclosures." > Maybe I misunderstood you, but this sounds a bit as if the "etheric > enclosure" of the animal is valued higher than your own as a human being > ... I only meant to show a correspondence with the animal kingdom. (Titus) >> "A person's aura is a form of enclosure. It is protective, but also enables >> a person to hear their own thoughts." > From what I have learned, aura refers to charisma which is of course > protective. I mean an actual energy field around the body. P.S., I'm interested in what some call your national saint, Nicholas von der Flue. Do you know of any biographies of him? (Hopefully in English). From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:34:28 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Adepts non-political? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971030223428.00c42da8@mail.eden.com> The issue of politics and involvement of the Adepts in them. It is very obvious that Adepts did not keep aloof from major changes that took place in the political front. Cases in point was the mention about the role played by Comte St. Germain in the French Revolution and how it got out of hand and led to large scale violence. After all French Revolution was the start of the philosophy of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity and the implementation of these are still at work today, IMHO. Looking at India and US Independence movements, fundamentally colonialism is something that cannot be condoned for any reason. Freedom and self-determination are the key to the growth and flowering of countries. So if the Adepts are on the side of elimination of colonialism and furthering freedom and self-determination, it looks like they knew what they were trying to achieve. I think that in the long run elimination of colonialism and implementation of freedom and democracy did indeed help the growth of the countries and the citizens of the countries involved. mkr PS: In colonial rule, the citizens were treated as second class citizens by the colonialists and no one can justify such a state of affairs. At 03:55 PM 10/30/97 EST, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >It is evident in the Theosophical literature that neither HPB >nor her Masterrs were the pristine non-partisan beings that >some listmembers and several other Theosophists claim them to >have been. These passages from various Mahatma letters make >that clear: "The whole future of the `brightest (!) jewel'-- >oh, what a dark satire in that name!-- in the crown of England >is at stake, and I am bound to devote the whole of my powers as >far as the Chohan will permit me to help my country t this >eleventh hour of her misery."(ML XXXII, 6pp. from K.H. to >Sinnett devoted almost entirely to Indian politics.) "Seel not >to secure help from those whose hearts are not patriotic enough >to unselfishly work for the good of their >countrymen...Luke-warm patriots, verily, are they. In the >presence of his country perishing in its nationality for want >of vitality, and the infusion of fresh forces, the patriot >catches at a straw. But are there any true patriots in >Bengal?"(LMW I, p. 34, K.H. to unnamed recipient) "You have >worked unselfishly and with great profit to both your country >and the good cause."(LMW II:100, M. to Ramaswamier) "There was >a time when a man of large fortune and influential family would >have considered it a duty to work for his country regardless of >consequences. And until that feeling once more prevails, you >must not expect to be looked upon with confidence and respect, >by those who-- think what you may-- still watch over the >destinies of India though themselves unseen and unsuspected." >(LMW II:115-15, unsigned, presumably from K.H. to Pillai) "Do >as you are bid. Save your nation-- my blessings upon you." >(Ibid, 119, K.H. to Pillai) > >One could provide more quotes from HPB showing similar support >for Indian nationalist aspirations, but there's a more general >point to be made. She very clearly pointed to Saint-Germain >and Cagliostro as involved in a work to which her own was >historically linked, and there is no doubt in her writings or >others that these two were profoundly entangled in the >international politics of their time. HPB and Judge are both >on record as seeing adept involvement in early American >politics. In the present, would wee say that the Dalai Lama >can't possible be a spiritually evolved being because he's >involved in nationalist politics? I wouldn't. The keynote of >adept invovlement in history would appear to be that their >energies are focused where needed and where they can have >maximum effect. In late 19th century India, that was the >emergent Freedom Movement. If we say there's no 20th century >Messengerr and a prior reject anyone who is active on the >political scene, no wonder we can't see any candidates. > >I must challenge the accusation that I have *impose* a >political interpretatioon on HPB's life and ties to her >Masters. Taking the clues in her own writings and those of her >acquaintances, I sought her spiritual teachers and occult >sponsors and found her linked to Russian Rosicrucians, >"Oriental" Masons, Carbonari, Arya Samaj, Singh Sabha members, >and Indian rajas and maharajas, to name the highlights. In >every case there was a profound and sincere spirituality >*intermingled with* subversive political agendas. I didn't >invent this consistent theme in her associates, I discovered >it; and didn't invent the passages in the Mahatma letters >appealing to patriotic motives, I noticed them after making the >abovementioned discoveries. The accusation of reductionism is >being made by the very people who are themselves >reductionists. I see spirituality and politics consistently >intertwined in HPB's life and never have suggested that she can >be reduced to a purely political being. But my critics on this >point see her as a purely spiritual being and deny that she or >her teachers/sponsros had any partisan political motivations >whatever, despite abundant evidence to the contrary. That's >spiritual reductionism. > >PS-- I know Dara's piece was not a review, which was precisely >my complaint. Surely the title and timing were no accident, >and it was an oblique comment on my book. Whatever her intent, >mine was the first book endorsing the existence of HPB's >Masters to be published by a university press, and the flagship >periodical of the Theosophical movement chose to notice it only >in this oblique and dismissive way. Squelching on Radha's part >of not Dara's, and not the first such behavior. Fortunately >Indian readers have not been prevented from learning about the >book, as an Indian edition has recently been released by a >major academic publisher in Delhi. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:21:29 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Dreck Message-ID: <971031002128_1302876212@mrin39> This is something that, contrary to a well-constructed public image I really don't like to do, but this time I gotta! Tonight Gerda and I had the incredible misfortune of hearing what was probably the most boring, god-awful dumb and stupid lecture the TS has put on in a couple of years. It made the brain-dead idiot with THE PATTERN look good by comparison. Hell, she at least was cute! The embarrassing part of all this is that the speaker is a nice little old lady who just happens to be the international vice president of the Adyar TS Mary Anderson. I don't know, maybe she just had an off night but even after 4 cups of coffee at dinner I fell asleep and was assured that the respite was merciful compared to what she was babbling. The point of this rant is that last night I hung out with some folks who are generally conceded to be really dumb--charismatic xtians (for those of you who don't know charismatic means pentecostal that can read) and they had a speaker who was one hell of a barn-burner. He held that audience and got them excited and interested in what he was saying. I was damn near speaking in tongues myself by the time he was over and was so damned high from the energy of the room that even a flat tire on the way home couldn't dampen my spirits. Now just how in the bloody hell are we going to compete with these folks for the hearts and minds of humanity if all we can offer is a series of crashing bores and new age dunderheads? I say we lock the nice, boring people in their offices, let them shuffle paper and eat cucumber sandwiches, which is what they do best, and create some people who can hold an audience, or least keep them awake! Chuck the Heretic "If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and visualize world peace for an hour, imagine how serene and quiet it would be until the looting started." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:34:59 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Dreck Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971031053459.012a3258@mail.eden.com> At 12:22 AM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote: >This is something that, contrary to a well-constructed public image I really >don't like to do, but this time I gotta! > >Tonight Gerda and I had the incredible misfortune of hearing what was >probably the most boring, god-awful dumb and stupid lecture the TS has put on >in a couple of years. It made the brain-dead idiot with THE PATTERN look >good by comparison. Hell, she at least was cute! > >The embarrassing part of all this is that the speaker is a nice little old >lady who just happens to be the international vice president of the Adyar TS >Mary Anderson. > >I don't know, maybe she just had an off night but even after 4 cups of coffee >at dinner I fell asleep and was assured that the respite was merciful >compared to what she was babbling. > >The point of this rant is that last night I hung out with some folks who are >generally conceded to be really dumb--charismatic xtians (for those of you >who don't know charismatic means pentecostal that can read) and they had a >speaker who was one hell of a barn-burner. He held that audience and got >them excited and interested in what he was saying. I was damn near speaking >in tongues myself by the time he was over and was so damned high from the >energy of the room that even a flat tire on the way home couldn't dampen my >spirits. > >Now just how in the bloody hell are we going to compete with these folks for >the hearts and minds of humanity if all we can offer is a series of crashing >bores and new age dunderheads? I say we lock the nice, boring people in >their offices, let them shuffle paper and eat cucumber sandwiches, which is >what they do best, and create some people who can hold an audience, or least >keep them awake! > >Chuck the Heretic > >"If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and visualize world >peace for an hour, imagine how serene and quiet it would be until the >looting started." > It is a very sorry state of affairs. I hope something is done before we end up getting a reputation of having boring speakers. Communication 101 is to keep the interest of the audience by keeping them awake. Let us all pray that things change for the better soon (even though I personally don't believe in prayers, it is still worth a try!) mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:50:20 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: HPB's article Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971031055020.00d3d37c@mail.eden.com> At 11:42 AM 10/30/97 -0500, Nicole Suter wrote: >"You will find the language in the books like Isis and SD quite different, >when compared to the various articles she wrote" > >And that is a very important difference. Approx. how many pages does >your version of the Isis have? > It is in two volumes totalling 1300 pages. >.."see her very dynamic uncompromising style" > >Do you think she had the feeling, that she must be good to every living >beeing? I think she simply was herself, as she was, with all her "mistakes". > >These "mistakes" are often that what makes you feel fond of another >person and not the his/hers so-called "perfect" sides. Would you feel >fond of somebody else if he/her is all "perfect"? > She was known to be very tough with those who are very determined and very gentle to those who are likely to be turned off. Kind of treatment best suited to the individual. This is what I have gleaned from the accounts of those who had known her. Her generosity and practical application of Theosophy was legendary. The most telling incident was when she exchanged her First Class ticket on the boat from France to NY so that she could get deck tickets for a family of a women and a couple of her young children who were taken in by a con man. >Lots of Sunlight for you, Thanks, I live in a place we do literally have too much sun at times! MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:27:48 EST From: CPickar965 Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1296 - Unconditional Love Message-ID: In a message dated 97-10-25 11:54:34 EDT, you write: > To: MKR Greetings: <> I agree the topic of unconditional love is an important one. The problems with definition is it limits the experience or concept. A Buddhist monk was talking along these lines and while Buddhism (the Buddhist concepts I've learned) call the experience an "fabricated" experience. As long as you are trying to express or define you don't know the "real thing" becasue the real thing is beyond expression. While I agree with this they considered the fabricated experience part of the growth process. *Point* - Discussion, description, even expression, reflection are part ot he learning process. Now that we are saying, in a sense, the same thing. .... I have a great deal of agreement with the rest of your comment. One can debate all day regarding the nature of unconditional love and if one starts with different ideas from psychology (part of the study of Theos. being the comparative study of science not just religion and to the best of my knowledge psychology is a science.) one can lose perspective and ones way. Saying that - I still think it's an important topic worthy of consideration whether we can agree or not on its nature. In society rampant with self interest and taught for the most part "me first" all the thought, talk and examples to illustrate the nature and naturalness of unconditional love should be aired as a sort of counter balance and tonic or fortification for the spirit. It seems to me once one starts to think along the lines of , one sees altruistic behavior missed before and one can see hope for a New Age. A New Age based on more than technological discoveries. It seems to me our society is starting to gradually become more aware and value "things of the spirit" more in the last few years. Just my 0.02. Feel free to interject yours any time. Thanks for the comments. crp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:31:31 EST From: CPickar965 Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1298 - Unconditonal love/shields/surveys Message-ID: In a message dated 97-10-27 09:05:56 EST, you write: To Nicole: Greetings: I am responding in what I understand to date. I have a lot to learn but this is what I understand so far subject to change. << Thank you for answering - it is very interesting what you write here. I agree with that what you write about "abuse or neglect" and I am also aware of such cases, but I do have some problems with the studies about "no mothering instinct". How did they try to find it out?>> Nicole, as I understand it at this time, the traditional way research on instincts is done is qualified by observation of test groups. Instinct is considered to be something you "have" or born with regardless of environment and without being taught. Example: a bird that flies North at the right season that was never raised (therefore taught) with like birds or birds that exhibited that behavior. It knew to do something with no teaching or coaching. This is considered instinct. When humans have children they do not show a uniform behavior pattern regardless of training or situation. Like all studies, there are test groups with different backgrounds. Plus the new parent is observed and asked responses to the experience. The ultimate conclusion was humans do not *instinctively* have mother love. It is either personal or learned or both. <<"People who seem to be able to love unconditionally do seem a little "obsessed". I guess we misunderstood here. I was more referring to what you write above concerning "abuse or neglect" because desires seem to be part of the ego and only ego leads then to obsession.>> Nicole, there are, in a sense two types of unconditional love. From reading Digest 1299 #2 - and your remarks about loving to much - there is the love of the personality or lower self which DOES become obsessive or the love of the Higher Self or Spirit which is inclusive and to a great degree selfless. (See MKR's remarks on unconditional love) same digest. Higher Self or Spirit HAS no limitations and is shared, therefore no shields or borders. We are in physical bodies, have physical lives and must to a degree have some limitations or borders or at least most of us think we must, for psychological well being. << I never read Freud - but why should one love unconditionally without self- interest?>> One should do what one feels from ones inner self. If your inner self says don't love unconditionally - Don't. If we are part of a shared spirit the point of self interest is there because to "take ones self out implies separateness" (I'm quoting) OTH, most of us our focused on ourselves and could stand a good dose of a loss of self interest. <<"They, also, talk of the need of "letting go of personality'" or "lower self" which I interpret as shields." Shields to me are borders, limits - every human being needs shields and needs personality and there is nothing l o w e r in a self but it is important just to be yourselves.>> Titus made some interesting remarks in Digest 1300 #2 regarding borders and limits. The bottom line as I understand it is borders and limits make us comfortable, we need them to have a grounds for behavior that we can psychologically accept from ourselves and others. However, as Titus so aptly implies they become an limitation after a point. This is totally consistent with Theosophical thought that I have read. Most Spiritual, New Age, Theosophical material seems bent on getting us to drop these limitations and be more inclusive. The subject of unconditional love lends itself to the subject of unity of spirit. It seems to me this is the motivation for *unconditional love*. Does anyone have any ideas to share along these lines? Namaste, crp From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:09:41 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Enclosures Message-ID: To Titus: "I mean a kind of container that holds similar things in and keeps dissimilar things out. The container also imparts a shape and quality of its own. For example, Peter thought following Christ meant being a Jew, circumcised.. etc. Essentially he said what belongs inside the group of Christians is this, not that. It gives spirit form." Thank you for that explanation. I see it a bit different. Following Christ does not mean being a Jew nor belonging to a group. The "container" (brrr - what an expression!) is your body and it's your s e l f where the spirit comes from. "For half an hour they recounted all (true) failings of my wife and why that proved they were right, parroting various aphorism and truisms." My warmest regards for your wife - nobody of us has true failings, it's just that we are all here to learn something and in order to do so one has to make "mistakes". "After hearing the tone of pious and solemn concern for me and my wife I began to think I was crazy for protesting, but in spite of my doubt I stuck to my guns." That "think I was crazy for protesting"-feeling is exactly that what happens when your psychic energy is blocked - out of a little experience I know how hard it can be to protest inspite. "What a powerful force that makes them conform." The power of dullness - Hitler already operated with that kind of power. "Saying, "Theosophy isn't for that born again Bible thumping fundamentalist," is ok, but it is not ok to say, "We are superior," or "Tear down his religion." I think the religion is never the question. The question is what the human beings are making out of it. "I only meant to show a correspondence with the animal kingdom." I guess out of hearth I know what you are trying to say. "I mean an actual energy field around the body." Maybe it's both ... "P.S., I'm interested in what some call your national saint, Nicholas von der Flue. Do you know of any biographies of him? (Hopefully in English)." I will ask around a bit but I doubt that I will find much in English - please give me some time, I'll come back to it. Peace, Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:19:13 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Dreck Message-ID: To Chuck: "If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and visualize world peace for an hour, imagine how serene and quiet it would be until the looting started." Why do I feel an hour might not be enough? Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:59:59 +0200 From: Nicole Suter Subject: Dreck/HPB's article Message-ID: To doss: "Communication 101 is to keep the interest of the audience by keeping them awake." Could it be that here we have a typing mistake? I feel that's called command 101, not communication. That marketing really changes world (sarcasticly)! "It is in two volumes totalling 1300 pages." And mine has three volumes and an index and counts by lucky chance 2478 pages. It has been printed in The Netherlands. ">Lots of Sunlight for you, Thanks, I live in a place we do literally have too much sun at times!" If I look upon your above sentence in a natural way, that pleases me immensly. Nicole From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:09:44 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Dreck/HPB's article Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971031160944.00de8bcc@mail.eden.com> At 10:01 AM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote: >To doss: "Communication 101 is to keep the interest of the audience by >keeping them awake." > >Could it be that here we have a typing mistake? I feel that's called >command 101, not communication. That marketing really changes >world (sarcasticly)! > >"It is in two volumes totalling 1300 pages." > >And mine has three volumes and an index and counts by lucky chance >2478 pages. It has been printed in The Netherlands. It is possible that the size of the type may have made the difference and I think both have the same book. > >">Lots of Sunlight for you, > >Thanks, I live in a place we do literally have too much sun at times!" > >If I look upon your above sentence in a natural way, that pleases me >immensly. > >Nicole > >Thanks ...............doss > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:20:30 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Masters Pictures on Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971031162030.00dc99a4@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting msg from theos-talk. Can anyone confirm and identify the source of the pictures? ============================== >Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:25:34 -0800 >From: Eldon B Tucker >Subject: Theos-World mahatma pictures Early this week someone posted some pictures of the Masters to theos-talk. The size of the posting was too big, so it was bounced to the listower. To avoid putting something so large out on the list, the pictures have temporarily been put onto the Web, and can be viewed at -- http://152.33.17.54/images/ ====================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:24:12 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theos-World mahatma pictures Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971031162412.00e08918@mail.eden.com> At 07:25 AM 10/31/97 -0800, you wrote: >Early this week someone posted some pictures of the >Masters to theos-talk. The size of the posting was >too big, so it was bounced to the listower. To avoid >putting something so large out on the list, the >pictures have temporarily been put onto the Web, >and can be viewed at -- > > http://152.33.17.54/images/ > I visited the site and downloaded the pictures. Can the person who posted the pictures or anyone else confirm them and the source from which they came from? mkr PS: Since the pictures have been temporarily been put out on the web, you may want to visit and save it to individual files. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:56:24 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Dreck Message-ID: <971031115152_1279304115@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-10-31 09:31:20 EST, you write: >Why do I feel an hour might not be enough? > >Nicole Because it is almost impossible to really visualize peace, while a child playing Doom will put out far more energy, and more effective energy in the opposite direction than an entire monastery full of Bhuddists. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 07:30:03 +1100 From: tosaki Subject: About theory of rhythm Message-ID: <345A3FCB.70B3@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au> Dear subscribers, I am writing Ph. D thesis about Piet Mondrian (Dutch painter 1872-1944), especially about his theory of rhythm, at Melbourne University. He is famous for a theosophist painter and was very much influenced by theosophist writings, for example, Mme Bravatsky, J. Krishnamurti, M. H. J. Schoenmaekers (Dutch philosopher and theosophist) and others. I am tracing Mondrian's theory of rhythm. It is quite unusual one. He contested that rhythm should occur on no-time and non-repetition basis and it should be attained by the equilibrated point of two extreme opposite elements. So far the phrase I have encounter among theosophist writings concerning rhythm is Alice A. Bailey's in her book A Treatise on Cosmic Fire (Lucis Publishing Company, New York, 1925, p. 158): "Rhythm, or the attainment of the point of perfect balance and of equilibrium." This concept is quite similar to Mondrian's, but Mondrian wrote about his theory of art and rhythm from 1917. So he obviously did not read Bailey's book. Then there is a question: from where he got the idea of rhythm. If the theory of rhythm is quite common among theosophist, where can we find the similar phrases in Mme Bravatsky's or J. Krishnamurti's writings (or any theosophical writing before 1917) as we see above in Bailey's book? If someone knows this resources about rhythm in writings of those above mentioned, please let me know. I am living Melbourne City (originally from Osaka Japan), so I can go to the library of Melbourne Theosophy Society and reference the resources. Thank you for your attention. Fondly, Eiichi Tosaki From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:35:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss (by way of ramadoss@eden.com) Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Alleged "Squelching" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19971031213524.00db66a8@mail.eden.com> There is some interesting traffic on theos-talk. Here is a msg I just posted mkr ========================================== K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > According to BJack5259@aol.com: > > > > I have followed the discussions by Paul Johnson and others for some time > > regarding the lack of offical endorsement by the "Leader of the Wheaton TS", > > etc. They have termed this "squelching". > > Endorsement? Who said anything about endorsement? > Acknowledgment of the book's existence is the issue as it > relates to Adyar. Excessively hostile and personal criticism > is the issue as it relates to various people in America. > > > briefly, and read his book - but I do recall that his book "In Search of the > > Masters", which he autographed for me, was "pushed" in Atlanta, and also at > > the Mid-South Federation meetings. I have not seen any "squelching" of his > > book among the membership. > > Talking different books here. But Adyar likewise failed to > acknowledge that one with a review. > > > upon the merits of its style and content. And so it has. If Mr. Johnson > > equates "squelching" with a lack of offical endorsement of his conclusions > > about the Masters, then he is being highly unrealistic and more than a little > > immature. > > You are being highly personal and missing the point entirely. > It's not my book that was squelched so much as the legitimacy > of the inquiry it pursues, in the Theosophist piece and many > comments made elsewhere including by Dr. Algeo. > > > He and his supporters in this discussion appear to complain about the > > non-acceptance of the conclusions of his research into the Masters - "his > > "Appear" is the key word; meaning "to you." No way! It would be preposterous > to expect that. The problem is non-acceptance of the value of > inquiry into the subject. > > > ideas should not be squelched" they say, and denounce the lack of support as > > a violation of certain principles of Theosophy. In this, they miss their > > mark. Mr. Johnson should realize that his conclusions about the Masters > > contradicts much of the common understanding of the Masters within the four > > Theosophical movements known to me. > > He does. > > > They also forget that the duty of the leaders of any organization > > include the support of those ideas to which the group subscribes. > > Here we get to the heart of the matter. The Theosophical > Society--Adyar subscribes officially ONLY to its Three Objects; > unofficially to the three fundamental propositions of the Secret Doctrine. > Beliefs about the Masters are entirely individual, as has been repeatedly > insisted upon by HPB, Olcott, and the Masters' letters. I can > think of no point that is made clearer in the literature than > that. There is *no* idea about the Masters to which the > Society officially subscribes. > > Mr. > > Johnson seems to ignore the reality that the publication of his book by the > > TPH would have been tantamount to an official endorsement of the substance > > and conclusions of the book. > > Certainly not so. There are disclaimers in front of every > magazine of the TS, as I recall, saying that the views of each > article are those of the author and not the Society. Similarly > with TPH books; no one to my knowledge has ever taken them as > official TS doctrine, as to do so would fly in the face of the > fundamental principle that *there is no such thing.* You also > should realize that TPH didn't just reject publication of the > work, but thereby the opportunity to critique and shape its > final form which might have been very different had they > accepted it. > > Likewise, an offical endorsement by Dr. Algeo > > would carry the same weight. > > Therefore, favorable reviews in the official journals of the > Australian, French, and English sections meant that the book was being > endorsed officially by the Society there? No way! Just what do you > mean by "endorsement" anyhow? Was Joy Mills's favorable review > in The Quest an official "endorsement" which then had to be undone by an > equal and opposite reaction in the AT from John Algeo? > > Is the denial of this official endorsement, > > which would have been a personal vindication of his long and arduous > > research, and greatly increased book sales, not the real cause of the problem > > here? > > I assure you that there is no such thing as official > endorsement in the TS, that book sales were just fine thank > you, and the "real cause of the problem" depends on what you > think the problem is. By the way, Dr. Algeo's attacks on the > book came far too late to impact sales, which had already > peaked. They may have hurt the sequel though. > > > Given the conclusions of Mr. Johnson's book, it is and was highly > > unrealistic for him to expect the praise of those who see the Master's in a > > different light. Non-endorsement is not the same as "squelching!" > > Agree 100%. But what happened to Tillett was definitely > squelching. And the vehemence of Dr. Algeo's remarks, which > came close to accusations of heresy, verged on squelching > but did not cross the line. Adyar's choice to run an article > with the book's name, but which in fact did not refer directly > to the book and simply indirectly dismissed the entire field of > inquiry, was definitely squelching. > > snip > > > In short, anyone who seeks the public's attention by speaking or writing > > must be thick-skinned enough to realize that he will never find universal > > acceptance, much less the overwhelming endorsement of those charged with > > protecting the current wisdom. > > You have erected a straw man from the very beginning of your > post, and you keep beating away at it mercilessly. But none of > this has much of anything to do with the issue at hand. > > Mr. Johnson should grow up. > > Thank you for your personal concern. > > He should > > publish his findings for their own sake and for the good that he belives his > > truths may offer others. For Mr. Johnson to quit the Theosophical Society > > because his divergent ideas were not officially endorsed, and because he > > received the criticism of a few Theosophists, a criticism that he must have > > anticipated, greatly lessens his stature in my eyes. > > I did *not* resign from the TS for that reason at all, but > allowed my membership to lapse in the wake of the by-laws > changes and a host of unsavory revelations about Adyar and > Wheaton. It lapsed just last winter, long after all this > happened. You misread this too: what I said was that I felt > perfectly comfortable in the lodges in DC and Baltimore, and > the whole Mid-Atlantic region where > I am known (and where my ideas have never been officially > endorsed, and in fact people are freely critical of them) but > that I felt exiled insofar as attendance at national > functions goes because there were so many people so filled with > fury and outrage. That alone would not cause me to resign if I > continued to have faith in the organization. Had you been on > theos-l you would have been aware of all the issues that caused > quite a number of people to lose faith in Wheaton and Adyar, > which had nothing to do with me and my writings. Glad you mentioned theos-l discussions. For anyone interested in the various issues relating to the administration of TSA, there was a wealth of information none of which is available anywhere else. I hope anyone open minded would take time to visit the archives and see for themselves and make up their own mind -- independent thinking and decision making which is supposed to be the hall mark of a thinking Theosophist. > > My experience with the TS--Adyar has been about 90% positive, > and my "problem" is with the authoritarian way the top > officials think and operate. Part of that is their tendency to > try to control members' thinking and I am only one small > beneficiary of that large problem. > > Since you are being so free with such personal criticism it > would be nice to know who you are. > > PJ One thought occurs to me. Was the writer of the msg from Atlanta, in any shape or form, either directly or indirectly, suggested or recommended or encouraged or provided info or ideas, edited, scripted by *anyone* in the TSA Administration in Olcott to write the response? If so, I would in the least be surprised!!!! mkr