From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:36:56 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Kabbalah and theosophy Message-ID: <33E12FA8.4C14@dmv.com> It is rather late here in Maryland, and I should be shuffling of to bed so forgive me for opening a wide area with only brief remarks. Firstly, I would like to thank Alan for publishing his "Keys to Kabbalah" on the web. Some months ago while searching on "Kabbalah" I found and read most of the book. My comprehension of the subject is just beginning, but the treatment given in the work was serious, and shouldn't be dismissed. As for myself, since the days of childhood my interest has been essential knowledge. Over the past fifteen years I have been looking to geometry for essential keys. It seems that the geometric forms described by Plato can come together as a "memory castle" as described by Frances Yates in her work "Art of Memory", and further, this geometric 'fractal' provides a perfect mnemonic for the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. The fractal is very difficult for me to 'completely' imagine as I suspect it would be for others, although, I am compelled for many reasons to believe that it is an authentic part of Kabbalah. As I am slowly becoming familiar with the Kabbalistic writtings and commentaries, Kabbalah shows itself to be the best form in which to propose theosophy. The focus of any theosophy is the divine nature, and the true guide is experiencing the higher self. So we should not become lost in our symbols(where Kabbalah is awash with them). We should have a small but comprehensive set of touch stones for description and importantly, memory of things 'important'. Kabbalah provides 32 to 39 symbols and if one embraces the Tree as a fractal of Platonic forms, there are only twelve to consider; the rest being derivable from the twelve. Summing up, twelve symbols makes for a very complex, although, manageable mnemonic structure. Peace be with you, Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 97 04:15:22 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: In regard to theos-l being less than doggie doo, I wish I had the orignal post. Who said this? I got into trouble by passing on hearsay and I hope I never go it again. If I didn't hear it, why repeat it? Anyway, I don't doubt that many consider it doggie diarrehea, because it is uncontroled and fecund, fertile, and growth promotoing unlike some lists that are overcontrolled and sterile, and stifling like there "moderators". Never was a word more appropriate. Take a guess? Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:07:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Smoking Message-ID: In message <3.0.2.32.19970731133941.006a33e0@pacbell.net>, techndex@pacbell.net writes >Folks can't be >satisfied with just pointing out the dangers of smoking and let people make >their own decisions nor even stop at banning smoking in public. Nooooo. >They have to try to FORCE everyone to quit, even in the privacy of their >own homes where the issue of second-hand smoke is irrelevant. No one should be forced, but a great deal more is known today than not too many years ago. I have a close friend who suffers from permanent asthma due entirely to living in a household of small rooms in which all five adults (including parents) were heavy smokers. She eventualy had to leave home because she couldn't take any more, alienating her relatives in the process. And, BTW, the diagnosis has been medically confirmed. For what it's worth, tho' not perhaps directly relevant, I used to smoke around 30 a day, but stopped seven years ago. Stopped - not "gave up" - smoking. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 06:08:25 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <33e87862.1412616@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Keith wrote: >In regard to theos-l being less than doggie doo, I wish I had the orignal >post. Who said this? I don't believe anyone said it until someone on this list characterized some TS members' opinion of this list in that way. >Anyway, I don't doubt that many consider it doggie diarrehea, because it is >uncontroled and fecund, fertile, and growth promotoing unlike some lists >that are overcontrolled and sterile, and stifling like there "moderators". >Never was a word more appropriate. Take a guess? I find it ironic that the same people whose politics advocates government stopping people from being too free and successful so that freeloaders can be encouraged are the ones who insist that their discussions not be moderated. Moderated discussions stick to the topic more. If one doesn't want to discuss any particular topic, why would one subscribe to any particular list? I joined this list because I wanted to discuss Theosophy. That it isn't moderated makes that much more difficult. The TS-L list probably has more discussion of Theosophy on it than this one does, in about 10% of the volume. Freedom must be limited, or it is non-existent. It can never exist purely, but only in connection with its opposite, like every other pair of opposites. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:37:37 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: In message <199707311323.JAA13683@mcfeely.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >A job >as a stock boy or at a drug store was considered the height of sucess. Gangs >were the thing, >even then, and you could often hear gunshots in the middle of the night. > >These things are imbedded in my soul and I always wonder how the Ageless Wisdom >can be >translated to them. It depends on the extent to which we understand the ageless wisdom (or our part of it). If we truly understand, then we can express it in terms of hamburgers and popcorn, providing we are doing so in context, viz., face to face with the kind of folk you mention. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:53:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: DSArthur on CWL Message-ID: In message <199707311805.MAA06175@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Hello Dennis? The complaint about CWL is NOT homosexuality - it's about CWL >being a CHILD MOLESTER. And your comparisons to "nicotine," "hockey," etc. >. .make no sense at all in this context. Me neither. I have heard that some of the young men CWL 'taught' remain severly traumatised to this day, though not so many are still with us owing to the passage of time. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:11:04 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Practical Application of Karma! Message-ID: In message <199707300219.UAA01455@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Rich people can be nice? Especially to other rich people. > >Having insurance makes people kinder and carefree? Espially insurance salesman. > >God is blamed for everything? Of course. God made everything (it is said). > >We are all brothers? Except sisters and stone dykes. > >We have to (yuk!) HUG people to work off karma? This is maya, or illusion. As the Zen mistress said, "What is the sound of one person hugging? > >That not all men, when hugged, think the other man is gay? That's right. Gay men KNOW the other man is gay. > >I dunno the moral of this story. . . Nor me. Puzzled of Engand. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:50:06 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Shortened Hairy Issues Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970731040833.00ec73c0@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >Very interesting. > >I am wondering what other relics are preserved at Olcott. > >I am sure Olcott himself if he were to resurrect today, IMHO, he would be >very shocked to find his hair being preserved as a "holy" relic. Shyould we all send our nail clippings to John Mead? Have our heads cryonically frozen for (theosophical) posterity? The possibilities are endless, esp. as I doubt that Oloctt or HPB (esp. HPB) saw themselves as future saints. Who knows, maybe future theosophists (if there are any left) will pay high prices for relics of the True Alan, the True Doss, The Venerable Kym, the unholy Chuck? [E. & O.E.] Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:41:41 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <199708011248.IAA13627@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 9:46 PM > > Anything happened to it? Operating a battered women's shelter is no > simple project! > > .............doss > Being that Olcott and Wheaton is a good hour or more away from me, I haven't kept in touch, but I did see the house and they were doing a good job of remodeling it. I had touched base with these fine women at the last Annual Meeting, so I have no idea where things have gone from there. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:52:02 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <199708011248.IAA13633@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > Subject: Doggie Diarreha > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 11:19 PM > > In regard to theos-l being less than doggie doo, I wish I had the orignal > post. Who said this? It all started when an individual connected with Olcott approached me and reproached me for saying "things" I shouldn't be saying on Theos-L. At that time, I had logged-off Theos-l to get some work done, so it was a moot point. When I asked this individual exactly what offending remark I made, all she did was stare at me, like I was supposed to know. When I asked her what line of communication she meant - theos-l, newsgroup, etc. she just kept saying, "The Internet! The Internet!" Huh? I let the incident pass, but as time has gone on, I believe it is no one's business who says what on the Internet, unless it is a lie or slander. This is a free forum and I or anyone else is not obligated to keep secrets, unless they personally choose to do so. Personaly, if anyone ever approached me again and tries to censure me (First Amendment Right) because of some kind of TS hush-hush, I am going to tell them to give me back my $30 odd dollars k and I will give them my membership back. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 07:54:33 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Original Post Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801125433.00e08a5c@mail.eden.com> Keith had mentioned about who first posted the comment. Here is the full msg. ...............doss >Return-Path: theos-l@vnet.net >Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:49:27 -0400 (EDT) >Originator: theos-l@vnet.net >Sender: theos-l@vnet.net >From: "A. Safron" >Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas >X-Comment: Theosophy Study List. (public) > >---------- >> From: Tom Robertson >> Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets >> Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 8:57 PM >> >> >> >Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we >> >> >probably spend three days in bed. >> >> >> >> RU M or F? I'm very picky, you know. >> > >> >It's your call, honey. >> >> Okay, I decided that URF. > >MURF? SMURF? >> >> >BTW, I KNOW that ts-l or nl-l or any other "l" controlled by those >> >who think the world operates on the hushed tones of polite >> >conversation would NEVER EVER let this slide down the >> >Internet. >> >> This has been a very Theosophical discussion. > >In a decidedly Scorpion organization, that is true. > > It has included >> unflinching humor in the face of a merciless attack, > >Attack? Did I aim for the groin? > >demonstrating >> true brotherhood and forgiveness in action. > >Brotherhood? Are we talking about a gay relationship here? >And who is forgiving what? Oh, yes, I cancelled the bondage date. > > I'm sure the moderator of >> TS-L would let my comments slide, since she knows that I would never >> say anything untheosophical, anyway. > >If the world contains all things theosophical and that includes sexual banter, then >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > >A. Safron > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 07:59:58 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801125958.00e0e648@mail.eden.com> At 02:18 AM 8/1/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Keith wrote: > >>In regard to theos-l being less than doggie doo, I wish I had the orignal >>post. Who said this? > >I don't believe anyone said it until someone on this list >characterized some TS members' opinion of this list in that way. > >>Anyway, I don't doubt that many consider it doggie diarrehea, because it is >>uncontroled and fecund, fertile, and growth promotoing unlike some lists >that are overcontrolled and sterile, and stifling like there "moderators". >Never was a word more appropriate. Take a guess? > >I find it ironic that the same people whose politics advocates >government stopping people from being too free and successful so that >freeloaders can be encouraged are the ones who insist that their >discussions not be moderated. Moderated discussions stick to the >topic more. If one doesn't want to discuss any particular topic, why >would one subscribe to any particular list? I joined this list >because I wanted to discuss Theosophy. That it isn't moderated makes >that much more difficult. The TS-L list probably has more discussion >of Theosophy on it than this one does, in about 10% of the volume. >Freedom must be limited, or it is non-existent. It can never exist >purely, but only in connection with its opposite, like every other >pair of opposites. > I think Tom has a point. However, volume of msgs don't bother me at all since theos-xxxx is only *one* of the many lists I subscribe to and some of the other lists have much higher traffic. I use the filter capabilities of my mail reader to do most of the sorting and also I liberally use the delete key. One of the benefits of an unmoderated fast medium is the various pieces of information that I have been able to learn about in 2 years what I did not know about in 20 years. And also the speed of exchanges of msgs. My 2 cents worth. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:12:02 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801131202.00df8c58@mail.eden.com> At 08:49 AM 8/1/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: JOSEPH PRICE >> Subject: Doggie Diarreha >> Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 11:19 PM >> >> In regard to theos-l being less than doggie doo, I wish I had the orignal >> post. Who said this? > >It all started when an individual connected with Olcott approached me and reproached me >for saying "things" I shouldn't be saying on Theos-L. At that time, I had logged-off Theos-l >to get some work done, so it was a moot point. When I asked this individual exactly what >offending remark I made, all she did was stare at me, like I was supposed to know. When I >asked her what line of communication she meant - theos-l, newsgroup, etc. she just kept >saying, "The Internet! The Internet!" Huh? I let the incident pass, but as time has gone >on, I believe it is no one's business who says what on the Internet, unless it is a lie or >slander. This is a free forum and I or anyone else is not obligated to keep secrets, unless >they personally choose to do so. > >Personaly, if anyone ever approached me again and tries to censure me (First Amendment Right) >because of some kind of TS hush-hush, I am going to tell them to give me back my $30 odd >dollars k and I will give them my membership back. > >A. Safron I commend your posting the details. I think very few in Olcott is on any of the theos-xxxx lists and so it must be some kind of misinformation campaign going on in a subtle manner and most times anything negative people tend to believe easily. And again, dont expect too much independent thinking or acting from anyone who is on the payrolls at Olcott. Whoever is spreading this kind misinformation may be giving a lot of free publicity to theos-xxxx. Who knows some of the residents at Olcott may be reading these msgs with great interest -- there have been a alot of information out here that is unavailable from any other source -- and may not want anyone else to know that they are reading them. No matter what, theos-l is not going to go away. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:29:31 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801082931.006a4b34@pacbell.net> At 10:45 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Doss wrote: >From what we have known thru various writings etc. the Adepts have mastered >two things - transportation and communication. On the latter, with phones >and internet we can communicate with anyone instantaneously so long as both >the parties have telephone. For those who don't or cannot afford to, we have >internet. Air travel has made travel much easier and quicker. > >Let us see what is in store for us in the next millenium. Very heavy Mercurial and Uranian influences here. I think we are indeed seeing the dawing of the Age of Aquarius (ruled by Uranus, Mercury's higher octave). Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:33:05 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Digest 1151 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801083305.006a4b34@pacbell.net> At 10:46 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Doss wrote: >A famous biologist was asked about what his assessment of God based on his >life long study of biology. His reply was that considering 10,000 varieties >of beatles there are, God has a special preference to beatles! So God lives in Liverpool after all? ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:49:10 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801084910.006a4b34@pacbell.net> I've been following this thread with fascination. IMHO, ethics stem from compassion and compassion stems from the quality of love. I don't mean this at all in the astrally-based sickly-sweet sentiment that masquerades as love or compassion. (The astrally-based sentiment has a strong component of lower-self interest in it, including when based on the desire to further ones own spiritual progress.) I'm referring to love as the esoteric or occult principle of attractive force and the realization of the oneness of all, upon which the concept of brotherhood is based. IMHO, by working to express the Egoic quality of love from the causal or levels of the Higher Self, compassion and ethics (right interaction with ones fellow humans) will follow. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:24:32 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Dolphins Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801082432.006a4b34@pacbell.net> At 09:44 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Alan wrote: >Some theosophists claim the same lack of animal soul(s). Like you, I >don't accept this one bit. Kabbalah speaks of the *nephesh* or *animal >soul* - which it refers to as part of US. We live in animal bodies, >just like dolphins, cats, dogs, and probably all mammals. It is >probably true (I would say certainly) that we all have grousp souls as >well, and on a much larger scale of things, a gigantic "mammalian" group >soul which includes ourselves, dolphins, cats, etc., etc. Perhaps pure instinct in humans could be said to arise from the animal soul within us. Your concept of a gigantic "mammalian" soul is fascinating and it leads me to wonder if perhaps there could be animal group souls roughly following the lines of biological taxa. (I say "roughly" because taxonomic classifications are sometimes a matter of debate among biologists.) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 08:16:16 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Bast Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801081616.006a4b34@pacbell.net> At 09:24 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Titus wrote: > > >A fine segue to Rules for cats who have a house to run: > >I. DOORS: Do not allow closed doors in any room. To get door opened, >stand on hind legs and hammer with forepaws. Once door is opened, it >is not necessary to use it. After you have ordered an "outside" door >opened, stand halfway in and out and think about several things. This >is particularly important during very cold weather, rain, snow, or >mosquito season. Swinging doors are to be avoided at all costs. These are hysterical!!!!! Now to this first one I'll add something based on my own feline mistress. "Stand in the doorway long enough to allow as many flying and crawling insects as possible to enter the house. These will be available throughout the evening for refining ones hunting skills. An additional benefit is watching the antics of your humans as they try to exterminate them." Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:22:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Digest 1151 Message-ID: <970801132200_985192312@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-01 00:32:07 EDT, you write: >Ask any exalted feline and he/she will tell you that the human >race is here to serve them because of their vastly superior >intelligence and sensibilities. > I think I told this story once before, but for those who may hae missed it, some years ago I was surfing the cable channels and landed on a program about dogs. The narrator said that dogs were descended from wolves or jackals, at which point Nootzy the Cat, who was watching this with appropriate feline disdain turned to me and sent a clear, telepathic message which translated, "And cats were descended from the Gods and don't you dare forget it!" Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:10:38 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Peaks and Valleys Message-ID: <199708011810.MAA03352@mailmx.micron.net> Doss wrote: >I think Tom has a point. Yes! I agree. Did you see it too? In that picture of Brother Tom in the Quest, I could swear I saw one on the top of his head! Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 97 18:15:15 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Doggie and Scoobie Doo Message-ID: Whoever is spreading this kind misinformation may be giving a lot of free publicity to theos-xxxx. Who knows some of the residents at Olcott may be reading these msgs with great interest -- there have been a alot of information out here that is unavailable from any other source -- and may not want anyone else to know that they are reading them. No matter what, theos-l is not going to go away. ......doss Keith: What I like is the fast give and take of the unmoderated discussion. Someone may say something about an author or web site which will send me off to a new resource. I am afraid I like controversey a little too much for some lists taste. Which brings up the Kabala or cabala. There are lot of people making new and interesting discoveries (at least to me) concerning the origin of the sacred alphabets: Hebrew, Greek, Sanskrit and others. Stan Tenen of the Meru Foundation believes that the Hebrew letters are shadows of "The flame in the tent" the outline of a torus in a dodecahedron ( and much complicated mathematics). His ideas suggest that the bible (Torah, at least) is encoded with very theosophical like ideas if you read or decode the scriptures with his method. Project Mind also is trying to use cabalism and other Jewish mysticism to accelerate learning and invention - a strange kind of mixing of technology and mysticism. There are other figures like David Winter who seems to have a very mixed audience of admirers and detractors. Is anyone familiar with work on sacred geometry etc. Alan, cabalism, may be as common as astrology soon, a household word! Not! Theosophy, despite all attempts to popularize it, will never regain the public mind. In my opinion, a nucleus is a nucleus and not a conglomeration of molecules, or in other words, the mass of humanity have no interest in speeding the evolution of themselves, the planet or humanity. The mass is by definition amorphous, moody, prone to control and impulsive action. Individuals alone can speed or hinder, only the evolution of oneself. But like a catalyst, orginazations and movements may crystalize around such individuals as HPB and those after. The catalyst is gone. And all we have left is the shed skin. Incomplete alchemical recipes. Others are moving on with her work of keeping the wisdom tradition alive and CHANGING enough to meet the needs of the time (even though it is by definition universal and timeless). Kym, I may be self-righteous about all this, but if I feel passionately about anything, it is not about the heroes of the past - but of the future. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:52:20 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Doggie and Scoobie Doo Message-ID: <199708011852.MAA06877@mailmx.micron.net> Keith wrote: >In my opinion, a nucleus is a nucleus and not a conglomeration >of molecules, or in other words, the mass of humanity have no interest in >speeding the evolution of themselves, the planet or humanity. The mass is by >definition amorphous, moody, prone to control and impulsive action. Have to disagree. The "mass" which includes you, me, and everyone else here are searching intensely for Truth, Love, and Compassion. There are many unknown and unsung heroes out there who are helping others along the Path every day. The drug addict, the murderer, the stock broker, the salesclerk are all seeking meaning and spirituality. They have "interest," but, perhaps, little guidance and encouragement. I think we need, as Theosophists, to think more highly of humanity before we can ever think of aiding "them." >Individuals alone can speed or hinder, only the evolution of oneself. Yes, but we are all on the same journey, and we each can help and contribute to each other - thereby hastening evolution. >The catalyst is gone. That's not true - we are all "the catalyst." There is no such thing as only one. >Kym, I may be self-righteous about all this, but if I feel passionately about >anything, it is not about the heroes of the past - but of the future. Perhaps, instead, we should concentrate on the present. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 14:45:03 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Peaks and Valleys Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801194503.00c3ec5c@mail.eden.com> At 02:10 PM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>I think Tom has a point. > >Yes! I agree. Did you see it too? In that picture of Brother Tom in the >Quest, I could swear I saw one on the top of his head! > >Kym > Did you read the rest of my post? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:44:32 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: DSArthur on CWL Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801104432.006e47c8@pacbell.net> At 03:50 AM 8/1/97 -0400, Alan wrote: >I have heard that some of the young men CWL 'taught' remain >severly traumatised to this day, though not so many are still with us >owing to the passage of time. I do hope that it is only due to the passage of time. Recently, here in the U.S., there were news reports of a multimillion dollar lawsuit against the Roman Catholic church by victims of a pedophilic priest. One of the victims committed suicide as a result of the emotional trauma. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:49:13 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801104913.006e47c8@pacbell.net> At 08:49 AM 8/1/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: > >It all started when an individual connected with Olcott approached me and reproached me >for saying "things" I shouldn't be saying on Theos-L. At that time, I had logged-off Theos-l >to get some work done, so it was a moot point. When I asked this individual exactly what >offending remark I made, all she did was stare at me, like I was supposed to know. When I >asked her what line of communication she meant - theos-l, newsgroup, etc. she just kept >saying, "The Internet! The Internet!" >Huh? I let the incident pass, but as time has gone >on, I believe it is no one's business who says what on the Internet, unless it is a lie or >slander. This is a free forum and I or anyone else is not obligated to keep secrets, unless >they personally choose to do so. > >Personaly, if anyone ever approached me again and tries to censure me (First Amendment Right) >because of some kind of TS hush-hush, I am going to tell them to give me back my $30 odd >dollars k and I will give them my membership back. > >A. Safron *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 10:39:30 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Smoking Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801103930.006e47c8@pacbell.net> At 12:32 AM 8/1/97 -0400, Alan wrote: > >No one should be forced, but a great deal more is known today than not >too many years ago. I have a close friend who suffers from permanent >asthma due entirely to living in a household of small rooms in which all >five adults (including parents) were heavy smokers. She eventualy had >to leave home because she couldn't take any more, alienating her >relatives in the process. And, BTW, the diagnosis has been medically >confirmed. Alan, I'm truly sorry about your friend!!!! I hope I didn't imply that smoking wasn't dangerous to ones health. It was just the personal freedom issue I was aiming at. :-) >For what it's worth, tho' not perhaps directly relevant, I >used to smoke around 30 a day, but stopped seven years ago. Stopped - >not "gave up" - smoking. I'm glad you did. I'd like to see you around for a long time to come! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 21:34:17 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Peaks and Valleys Message-ID: <33f35295.27072642@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym caustically wrote: >Doss wrote: >>I think Tom has a point. >Yes! I agree. Did you see it too? In that picture of Brother Tom in the >Quest, I could swear I saw one on the top of his head! Why are you always pickin' on me? Here Doss was paying me a sincere compliment, and you have to go and twist it beyond recognition. Just because I'm a sexist, lying, egotistical, hypocritical bigot doesn't mean I don't have feelings. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 16:49:59 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: DSArthur on CWL Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801214959.00c9bc6c@mail.eden.com> At 04:00 PM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 03:50 AM 8/1/97 -0400, Alan wrote: > > >>I have heard that some of the young men CWL 'taught' remain >>severly traumatised to this day, though not so many are still with us >>owing to the passage of time. > >I do hope that it is only due to the passage of time. Recently, here in the >U.S., there were news reports of a multimillion dollar lawsuit against the >Roman Catholic church by victims of a pedophilic priest. One of the victims >committed suicide as a result of the emotional trauma. > >Lynn > >*********************************** >Lynn Moncrief >(techndex@pacbell.net) >TECHindex & Docs >Technical and Scientific Indexing >*********************************** > In Dallas, TX, a jury awarded $120 million judgement against Roman Catholic Diocease and the church is still reeling from the verdict. Last I read about was it is going to appeal the verdict. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 14:31:47 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: empty post Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970801143147.006cdf7c@pacbell.net> Sorry folks for the empty message I sent where I quoted an entire message, then added nothing to it. I intended to respond, decided against it, then hit the Queue (for sending) rather than the Close (window) button. And Mercury isn't even retrograde yet! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 18:55:39 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <33E2696B.7779@dmv.com> The true motivation of individuals is love which in occult literature is many times referred to as desire. Desire has two roots; the love of cosmos amd the love of divine being which is produced by cosmos. Cosmos is the space within the heart which holds the supernatural self; the cosmic child. Further, the heart and the child form the essence of continuum; the heart is all about producing the cosmic child; the sentience of cosmos within which is again the heart. The only thing that we truly posess is our 'sense' of things. Our senses and the memory of our senses is the self; we can not posess any thing else. The soul also has more elemental parts: Mind, Sririt, Strength. The parts of the soul fall into a beautiful natural order within the great continuum. Ethics are simply rules of thumb for preserving the 'integrity' of the soul, enhancing beauty of being, and peaking the pleasurable life experience. We can not escape two facts; we have only our sense, and we are constructed of parts in which some order must be maintained; if not for 'higher' comfort, then simply to prevent death. Survival of the finest, the product of wisdom; love. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:09:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970801024341.00b92ecc@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >The Frenchmen thru their followers(representatives) sued the Colorado >Corporation to take control of the properties situated in the USA and this >is now under litigation at Denver. Many from Wheaton are in the French camp. >Many members of TSA are in the other camp which decided not to let any >foreign outfit control US property and affairs. > >This is some of the *real* story, not the *moderated* ones you may have heard. Co-masonry includes women and in some lodges is likely to contain more women than men, so perhaps you should amend "Frenchmen" simply to "French" - unless you know that the litigants are exclusively male? Just nit-picking. Alan (formerly of Fidelity Lodge No. 49) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:31:04 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Digest 1151 Message-ID: In message <970801132200_985192312@emout03.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >"And cats were descended from the Gods and don't you dare forget it!" > >Chuck the Heretic My own cat, having ascertained that I am engaged in the harmless pastime called internet, is graciously testing the sleep quotient factor of my bed. She is so kind to me. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:19:00 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: In message <199708011248.IAA13633@marconi.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >Personaly, if anyone ever approached me again and tries to censure me (First >Amendment Right) >because of some kind of TS hush-hush, I am going to tell them to give me back my >$30 odd >dollars k and I will give them my membership back. As you know, I was thrown peremptorily off my Lodge committee [A lodge I had been president of for two consecutive years not too long before] for promoting an 'alternative organisation'(TI) - AND 'The Internet.' I am now one of the EX-members of the TS in England. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:27:57 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Dolphins Message-ID: In message <3.0.2.32.19970801082432.006a4b34@pacbell.net>, techndex@pacbell.net writes >Perhaps pure instinct in humans could be said to arise from the animal soul >within us. Your concept of a gigantic "mammalian" soul is fascinating and >it leads me to wonder if perhaps there could be animal group souls roughly >following the lines of biological taxa. (I say "roughly" because taxonomic >classifications are sometimes a matter of debate among biologists.) You may be right, but I doubt that there is any 'precision' in the arrangement, as there would be a great deal of overlapping. Especially by the cats [pun]. Alan ;-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:31:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Smoking Message-ID: In message <3.0.2.32.19970801103930.006e47c8@pacbell.net>, techndex@pacbell.net writes >>For what it's worth, tho' not perhaps directly relevant, I >>used to smoke around 30 a day, but stopped seven years ago. Stopped - >>not "gave up" - smoking. > >I'm glad you did. I'd like to see you around for a long time to come! > >Lynn Me too! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:03:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: In message <199708010108.VAA28864@cliff.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >There is a project by two women named Brennan and Kettering in Olcott which >involves the purchase of a house not far from Olcott. Last year, I hear it was >being remodeled to use as a battered women's shelter, as well as food pantry. >However, TS was not used in the name of the project, as some conservative >and fundamentalist people who live in the area would have been made it >difficult for them to operate. The attitude of the people you mention is sad and sick news to hear. I hope the project goes well, but remain appalled that a worthy and essential facility has to be undertaken in a semi-clandestine way by people who are - *theosophists*? Gulp. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:34:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: DSArthur on CWL Message-ID: In message <3.0.2.32.19970801104432.006e47c8@pacbell.net>, techndex@pacbell.net writes >>I have heard that some of the young men CWL 'taught' remain >>severly traumatised to this day, though not so many are still with us >>owing to the passage of time. > >I do hope that it is only due to the passage of time. Recently, here in the >U.S., there were news reports of a multimillion dollar lawsuit against the >Roman Catholic church by victims of a pedophilic priest. One of the victims >committed suicide as a result of the emotional trauma. We heard about it here as a major news item. Also that thr RC church is to contest the decision re compensation! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:43:44 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <199708020109.VAA23025@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha > Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 1:18 AM > > Keith wrote: > > >In regard to theos-l being less than doggie doo, I wish I had the orignal > >post. Who said this? > > I don't believe anyone said it until someone on this list > characterized some TS members' opinion of this list in that way. > > >Anyway, I don't doubt that many consider it doggie diarrehea, because it is > >uncontroled and fecund, fertile, and growth promotoing unlike some lists >that are overcontrolled and sterile, and stifling like there "moderators". >Never was a word more appropriate. Take a guess? > > I find it ironic that the same people whose politics advocates > government stopping people from being too free and successful so that > freeloaders can be encouraged are the ones who insist that their > discussions not be moderated. Moderated discussions stick to the > topic more. If one doesn't want to discuss any particular topic, why > would one subscribe to any particular list? I joined this list > because I wanted to discuss Theosophy. That it isn't moderated makes > that much more difficult. The TS-L list probably has more discussion > of Theosophy on it than this one does, in about 10% of the volume. One wonders why you are still subscribed to this list, since it's overabundance of freedom offends you. Personally, I believe you would not get away with half the offensive material you post here if you were on any other moderated list. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:46:40 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Bast Message-ID: <199708020109.VAA23037@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Titus Roth > Subject: Re: Bast > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 8:24 PM > > "A. Safron" wrote: > > >> From: DSArthur@aol.com > >> snippy> Fine for animals, of course, but not for us vastly > >> superior human beings. We deserve better than that! Right? > > > Ask any exalted feline and he/she will tell you that the human > > race is here to serve them because of their vastly superior > > intelligence and sensibilities. > > > Remember Bast? Cats were worshipped in Egypt and rightly so. > > A fine segue to Rules for cats who have a house to run: > > I. DOORS: Do not allow closed doors in any room. To get door opened, > stand on hind legs and hammer with forepaws. Once door is opened, it > is not necessary to use it. After you have ordered an "outside" door > opened, stand halfway in and out and think about several things. This > is particularly important during very cold weather, rain, snow, or > mosquito season. Swinging doors are to be avoided at all costs. > > II. CHAIRS AND RUGS: If you have to throw up, get to a chair quickly. > If you cannot manage in time, get to an Oriental rug. If there is no > Oriental rug, shag is good. When throwing up on the carpet, make sure > you back up so that it is as long as the human's bare foot. > > III. BATHROOMS: Always accompany guests to the bathroom. It is not > necessary to do anything -- just sit and stare. > > IV. HAMPERING: If one of your humans is engaged in some close > activity and the other is idle, stay with the busy one. This is > called "helping", otherwise known as "hampering". Following are the > rules for "hampering": > > a) When supervising cooking, sit just behind the left heel of the > cook. You cannot be seen and thereby stand a better chance of > being stepped on and then picked up and comforted. > > b) For book readers, get in close under the chin, between eyes and > book, unless you can lie across the book itself. > > c) For knitting projects or paperwork, lie on the work in the most > appropriate manner so as to obscure as much of the work or at > least the most important part. Pretend to doze, but every so > often reach out and slap the pencil or knitting needles. The > worker may try to distract you; ignore it. Remember, the aim > is to hamper work. Embroidery and needlepoint projects make > great hammocks in spite of what the humans may tell you. > > d) For people paying bills (monthly activity) or working on income > taxes or Christmas cards (annual activity), keep in mind the aim > -- to hamper! First, sit on the paper being worked on. When > dislodged, watch sadly from the side of the table. When activity > proceeds nicely, roll around on the papers, scattering them to the > best of your ability. After being removed for the second time, > push pens, pencils, and erasers off the table, one at a time. > > e) When a human is holding the newspaper in front of him/her, be sure > to jump on the back of the paper. They love to jump. > > V. WALKING: As often as possible, dart quickly and as close as possible > in front of the human, especially: on stairs, when they have something > in their arms, in the dark, and when they first get up in the morning. > This will help their coordination skills. > > VI. BEDTIME: Always sleep on the human at night so s/he cannot move > around. VII. Computer Time: Sit on the human's lap, so that your feline head gently rubs against the arms of your owner. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:50:15 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Bast Message-ID: <199708020109.VAA23045@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: techndex@pacbell.net > Subject: Re: Bast > Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:19 AM > > At 09:24 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Titus wrote: > > > > > > >A fine segue to Rules for cats who have a house to run: > > > >I. DOORS: Do not allow closed doors in any room. To get door opened, > >stand on hind legs and hammer with forepaws. Once door is opened, it > >is not necessary to use it. After you have ordered an "outside" door > >opened, stand halfway in and out and think about several things. This > >is particularly important during very cold weather, rain, snow, or > >mosquito season. Swinging doors are to be avoided at all costs. > > These are hysterical!!!!! Now to this first one I'll add something based on > my own feline mistress. "Stand in the doorway long enough to allow as many > flying and crawling insects as possible to enter the house. These will be > available throughout the evening for refining ones hunting skills. An > additional benefit is watching the antics of your humans as they try to > exterminate them." I never bother to exterminate insects, especially flies. My cats will take care of them for me and have them for a snack. A. Safron > > Lynn > > *********************************** > Lynn Moncrief > (techndex@pacbell.net) > TECHindex & Docs > Technical and Scientific Indexing > *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:55:36 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <199708020109.VAA23054@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha > Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 8:14 AM > > I commend your posting the details. Frankly, it was shock to me that someone wanted to limit my speech and then refused to tell me what it was I has supposedly said. I could only wonder what dire secrets I had exposed. > > I think very few in Olcott is on any of the theos-xxxx lists and so it must > be some kind of misinformation campaign going on in a subtle manner and most > times anything negative people tend to believe easily. And again, dont > expect too much independent thinking or acting from anyone who is on the > payrolls at Olcott. > > Whoever is spreading this kind misinformation may be giving a lot of free > publicity to theos-xxxx. Who knows some of the residents at Olcott may be > reading these msgs with great interest -- there have been a alot of > information out here that is unavailable from any other source -- and may > not want anyone else to know that they are reading them. > > No matter what, theos-l is not going to go away. > Not at the rate we're posting! At any rate, I find the whole incident very bizarre and different than any other organization I had belonged to. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:11:51 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Smoking Message-ID: <199708020110.VAA23064@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Smoking > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 11:32 PM > > In message <3.0.2.32.19970731133941.006a33e0@pacbell.net>, > techndex@pacbell.net writes > >Folks can't be > >satisfied with just pointing out the dangers of smoking and let people make > >their own decisions nor even stop at banning smoking in public. Nooooo. > >They have to try to FORCE everyone to quit, even in the privacy of their > >own homes where the issue of second-hand smoke is irrelevant. > I was asthmatic as a child and allergic to cigarette smoke. My mother, who smoked, always smoked in another room of the house, the porch, where the smoke would dissipate out the window. She even put on a coat in winter and smoked out there. My father smoked cigars, but only outdoors. If 2nd hand smoke is irrelevant, then they were clueless to that that notion. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 18:43:15 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <199708020143.SAA02600@palrel3.hp.com> I didn't see my latest post on the subject appear. In case it disappeared, here is the gist of it. (Unfortunately, I also lost Jerry's post, so I can't put it in the context of his statements) Ethics is a transcendental concept. Expressed in our dualistic world it becomes a judgment of right or wrong. If we forget about the transcendent truth involved, the judgment of right or wrong can harden and indeed possibly cause evil instead of good. Behind every "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" is a spiritual principle that is real. It is just hard to codify it in a comprehensive enough way to the point where it is unambiguously good in all cases. That is the "letter of the law", tinkling brass, sounding cymbal. The Psalmist spoke of these transcendent Ethics in the statement, "I will seal my law into their inward parts." We may be getting into trouble, Jerry, because I am talking about the transcendent aspects, but I have to use poor words to do it. Maybe I also misunderstood the "spirit" behind your words and we agree more than it appears. - Titus From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 18:46:37 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Bast Message-ID: <199708020146.SAA02823@palrel3.hp.com> Another little known fact. Humans appear to get more inspiration from cats than is realized. "The Raven" was actually partly plagiarized from a work by Poe's cat: The End of the Raven -- by Edgar Allen Poe's Cat On a night quite unenchanting, when the rain was downward slanting, I awakened to the ranting of the man I catch mice for. Tipsy and a bit unshaven, in a tone I found quite craven, Poe was talking to a Raven perched above the chamber door. "Raven's very tasty," thought I, as I tiptoed o'er the floor, "There is nothing I like more" Soft upon the rug I treaded, calm and careful as I headed Towards his roost atop that dreaded bust of Pallas I deplore. While the bard and birdie chattered, I made sure that nothing clattered, Creaked, or snapped, or fell, or shattered, as I crossed the corridor; For his house is crammed with trinkets, curios and wierd decor - Bric-a-brac and junk galore. Still the Raven never fluttered, standing stock-still as he uttered, In a voice that shrieked and sputtered, his two cents' worth - "Nevermore." While this dirge the birdbrain kept up, oh, so silently I crept up, Then I crouched and quickly lept up, pouncing on the feathered bore. Soon he was a heap of plumage, and a little blood and gore - Only this and not much more. "Oooo!" my pickled poet cried out, "Pussycat, it's time I dried out! Never sat I in my hideout talking to a bird before; How I've wallowed in self-pity, while my gallant, valiant kitty Put and end to that damned ditty" - then I heard him start to snore. Back atop the door I clambered, eyed that statue I abhor, Jumped - and smashed it on the floor. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 21:05:08 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970802020508.00ede62c@mail.eden.com> At 08:55 PM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970801024341.00b92ecc@mail.eden.com>, >ramadoss@eden.com writes >>The Frenchmen thru their followers(representatives) sued the Colorado >>Corporation to take control of the properties situated in the USA and this >>is now under litigation at Denver. Many from Wheaton are in the French camp. >>Many members of TSA are in the other camp which decided not to let any >>foreign outfit control US property and affairs. >> >>This is some of the *real* story, not the *moderated* ones you may have heard. > >Co-masonry includes women and in some lodges is likely to contain more >women than men, so perhaps you should amend "Frenchmen" simply to >"French" - unless you know that the litigants are exclusively male? > >Just nit-picking. > >Alan (formerly of Fidelity Lodge No. 49) You are right. These lodges admit both men and women. As far as I know, all the heads for quite some decades have been Frenchmen and no French or anyother women. The top people who control the matters in Paris are Frenchmen though there may be sprinkling of (French) women. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 21:05:10 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970802020510.00e609c0@mail.eden.com> At 08:56 PM 8/1/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <199708011248.IAA13633@marconi.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" > writes >>Personaly, if anyone ever approached me again and tries to censure me (First >>Amendment Right) >>because of some kind of TS hush-hush, I am going to tell them to give me back my >>$30 odd >>dollars k and I will give them my membership back. > >As you know, I was thrown peremptorily off my Lodge committee [A lodge I >had been president of for two consecutive years not too long before] for >promoting an 'alternative organisation'(TI) - AND 'The Internet.' I am >now one of the EX-members of the TS in England. > >Alan First case of 'Internet' casualty; what have they got against Internet? It is like being against telephone or fax or airplane. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 21:05:11 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970802020511.00e6edbc@mail.eden.com> At 09:05 PM 8/1/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <199708010108.VAA28864@cliff.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" > writes >>There is a project by two women named Brennan and Kettering in Olcott which >>involves the purchase of a house not far from Olcott. Last year, I hear it was >>being remodeled to use as a battered women's shelter, as well as food pantry. >>However, TS was not used in the name of the project, as some conservative >>and fundamentalist people who live in the area would have been made it >>difficult for them to operate. > >The attitude of the people you mention is sad and sick news to hear. I >hope the project goes well, but remain appalled that a worthy and >essential facility has to be undertaken in a semi-clandestine way by >people who are - *theosophists*? Gulp. > >Alan On rethinking based on your post, the two women should have gone ahead and told the world that they are Theosophists and waited for reaction from fundamentalists. Issues of this nature is worth fighting for and the media and ACLU and other organizations would join in the fight for the shelter. If it had taken place in San Antonio, I would have given my full support in pursuing this course of action. ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 04:29:20 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <33e4b45f.4186713@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron wrote: >One wonders why you are still subscribed to this list, since it's >overabundance of freedom offends you. I subscribe because I want to discuss Theosophy, one aspect of which is how cynicism causes that in which it believes. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:42:16 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <199708021249.IAA04754@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: techndex@pacbell.net > Subject: Re: Doggie Doo > Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:19 AM > > At 10:45 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Doss wrote: > >From what we have known thru various writings etc. the Adepts have mastered > >two things - transportation and communication. On the latter, with phones > >and internet we can communicate with anyone instantaneously so long as both > >the parties have telephone. For those who don't or cannot afford to, we have > >internet. Air travel has made travel much easier and quicker. > > > >Let us see what is in store for us in the next millenium. > > Very heavy Mercurial and Uranian influences here. I think we are indeed > seeing the dawing of the Age of Aquarius (ruled by Uranus, Mercury's higher > octave). Ah, another astrologer on the list! Welcome! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 07:51:25 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Some funnies Message-ID: <199708021249.IAA04759@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: techndex@pacbell.net > Subject: Re: Some funnies > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 10:07 PM > > At 09:08 PM 7/31/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: > >> up? > >> > >Right now we're in a Saturn retrograde that will last till to Aug. 9. > >Things will s-l-o-w down. It will take longer to accomplish things. Once it > >passes, we will be in the thick of a Pluto retrograde, (8/14) where sinister > >things are most likely to happen. > > Oh gawwwwwd!!!! That means that Pluto will be crossing my Descendent > (opposing my Ascendant and hyleg) again!!!!!!! The last time it did that, I > had a friggin' heart attack!!! Well, as they say, Pluto's effects are > ..ahem... transformative and a heart attack turns your life around all of > a sudden within a matter of hours. ;-D Yes, Pluto means a sort of death, but also regeneration. Also, transits do not always manifest the same way. Last year, I had transiting Pluto sq. natal Venus in the 8th house. I had my wedding rings stolen out of my house. This year, the same transit rolled around and my car was damaged enough to spend a week in the shop (much to the delight of my body shop man). All involved transformation, loss, but replacement and insurance, since the 8th house represents insurance. Take it easy. You may be learning and reaping the benefits of the heart attack that turned your life around last year. Peace. > >Jupiter going direct? Hmmm. Don't know that one. > > On Oct. 8th, according to "The American Ephemeris for the 20th Century". > I meant that I didn't know what effect it had when Jupiter went direct. :-) Does it means we all party? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 09:00:55 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Theosophy WWW Message-ID: <33E33D97.6915@eden.com> Hi I just visited the Theosophy NW URL. You should visit it and see what a professional job they have done and the items available on-line. http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/home/thnw-hp.htm Enjoy the addition on the Internet. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:53:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Qabala vs Theosophy Message-ID: <199708021531.LAA13752@NetGSI.com> >As I am >slowly becoming familiar with the Kabbalistic writtings and >commentaries, Kabbalah shows itself to be the best form in which to >propose theosophy. I am very uncertain as to what you mean here, but it sounds like the Qabala is somehow a foundation for theosophy. If this is your feeling, fine. It is not mine. HPB was familiar with the Qabala, and yet gave us her own theosophical model anyway (which today's theosophists ignore because they don't understand it). But HPB aside, I tried the Tree of Life model years ago and had a lot of trouble with it. I eventually wound up in the Enochian Magic mileu with the Watchtower and Aethys model, which I prefer to the Tree of LIfe. To each his own. My main point here is that you won't find "truth" in any of these things--they are all just models of reality, and some models apply better to some people than others. Thus all have a ring of truth, but we have to remember that they are human-mind inventions to help us come to grips with the infinite and eternal. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:15:28 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <199708021531.LAA13755@NetGSI.com> >I've been following this thread with fascination. IMHO, ethics stem from >compassion and compassion stems from the quality of love. I don't mean this >at all in the astrally-based sickly-sweet sentiment that masquerades as >love or compassion. (The astrally-based sentiment has a strong component of >lower-self interest in it, including when based on the desire to further >ones own spiritual progress.) I'm referring to love as the esoteric or >occult principle of attractive force and the realization of the oneness of >all, upon which the concept of brotherhood is based. IMHO, by working to >express the Egoic quality of love from the causal or levels of the Higher >Self, compassion and ethics (right interaction with ones fellow humans) >will follow. > >Lynn Lynn, glad to hear you are fascinated. And I like what you say. "Sickly sweet" ethics do not necessarily include "astrally-based" or misguided, or wrong, or lower, or any other perjorative term. Rather, it is the over-emphasis of ethics, and the annoying underlying notion that if we all got ethical, we would be Adepts. Most Christians are ethical, and Chrisitanity (as well as all other religions) emphasize ethics to the breaking point--their teaching is that if we go to church, and are ethical, we will go to heaven when we die. This misguided reasoning is also found in Hinduism and in Theosophy where the idea is that if we are "good theosophists" and are ethical, we will have good karma, and have a better life next time around, and be well on the path of chelaship. This is well-intended, but misguided. I agree with you that we have a downward flow in the order of Love-> Compassion->Ethics. HPB, Judge, and many others suggest that by forcing ethics, we will be able to rise to compassion, and then to love as you have defined it. I would suggest that it just doesn't work that way. Tibetan Buddhism, for example, has techniques with which we can develop compassion. They emphasize ethics, but never imply that morality is an end-all in itself. Most occult schools distaste the sickly- sweet theosophical emphasis on ethics because ethics should come naturally, and not be forced. When you suggest to a Seeker of Truth that s/he should begin by developing ethics, and a strong sense of right and wrong, then that person feels forced to construct and follow a set of ethical behaviors, and misses the forest for the trees. Rather, we should develop compassion, and let ethics take care of itself. What you say above, is exactly what I have been saying on theos-l since its inception--that we need to work on universal love and compassion and let ethics develop naturally all by itself. If we care for another person, chances are high that we will act ethcially with that person, without thought of reward, and without thought for whether we are right or wrong. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:37:39 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Animal Souls Message-ID: <199708021531.LAA13750@NetGSI.com> >>One thing about the readings which bothers me is the denial >>that animals have individual souls. In the case of dolphins >>and several other species, this just doesn't ring true. > >Some theosophists claim the same lack of animal soul(s). Like you, I >don't accept this one bit... Paul and Alan, I agree. Actually, HPB says that none of the planes can be skipped, so that everything on the physical plane has to have its astral, mental, and causal counterparts even thought they may not be actively manifesting. I raise Norweign Forest Cats, and can say with some authority that they each have a "soul" however you want to define it. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:31:01 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Magick Message-ID: <199708021540.LAA14007@NetGSI.com> >The only thing that we truly posess is our 'sense' of things. Our senses >and the memory of our senses is the self; we can not posess any thing >else. Very true Vincent, but what what we can do, is to change our "sense" of things to whatever we want, which is pretty much the definition of magick. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:35:14 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <199708021540.LAA14009@NetGSI.com> >Ethics are simply rules of thumb for preserving the >'integrity' of the soul, enhancing beauty of being, and peaking the >pleasurable life experience. Vincent, are cats ethical? Are dogs? Are elephants? Why is it that only human beings feel this desperate need to be ethical all the time? Could it be that only human beings have a developed manas, and the fact that "mind is the slayer of the real?" Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:40:03 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Peaks and Valleys Message-ID: <199708021546.LAA25547@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > Subject: Re: Peaks and Valleys > Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 4:39 PM > > Kym caustically wrote: > > >Doss wrote: > > >>I think Tom has a point. > > >Yes! I agree. Did you see it too? In that picture of Brother Tom in the > >Quest, I could swear I saw one on the top of his head! > > Why are you always pickin' on me? Here Doss was paying me a sincere > compliment, and you have to go and twist it beyond recognition. Just > because I'm a sexist, lying, egotistical, hypocritical bigot doesn't > mean I don't have feelings. Are you as good looking as you say you are? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:47:53 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <199708021546.LAA25557@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha > Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:32 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > >One wonders why you are still subscribed to this list, since it's > >overabundance of freedom offends you. > > I subscribe because I want to discuss Theosophy, one aspect of which > is how cynicism causes that in which it believes. cyn·i·cism (sîn¹î-sîz´em) noun 1. A scornful, bitterly mocking attitude or quality: the public cynicism aroused by governmental scandals. 2. A scornful, bitterly mocking comment or act. 1. To be the cause of or reason for; result in. 2. To bring about or compel by authority or force: The moderator invoked a rule causing the debate to be ended. be·lieve 1. To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories? 2. To credit with veracity: I believe you. 3. To expect or suppose; think: I believe they will arrive shortly. An interesting approach, one which the other posters may ignore or rant. Personally, I think you're just looking for a a good-looking babe to hang out with. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:01:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: child sacrifice in India Message-ID: <970802120153_-155050823@emout08.mail.aol.com> Here's something that was sent to me from another list. Reports of resurgence of ritual child sacrifice Taken from:The Sunday Times Magazine, 13 July 1997 Article "Children of a Lesser God" reported official recognition of alarming rise in child sacrifice in India, in Assam, West Bengal, Orissa and Bihar. In October last year a man witnessed the ritual sacrifice of two-year old Charano Singh. She had been snatched from under a whilst her mother worked in the fields of her village near Jaipur. Her body was found a week later, buried in a shallow grave - she had been dressed in silk robes and made up as a goddess. She had died from shock and blood loss after the top of her head had been removed. The murder of Charano was linked to the activities of a tantric guru, Gurdev Singh, who allegedly told a couple that if they sacrificed one or two infants they would be blessed with a child of their own. Gurdev Singh was shortly afterwards arrested but released after it was discovered he was a prominent member of the BJP, India's main opposition party. A week later the tantrics returned for Charano's 10-month old brother - who was killed in similar circumstances. Gurdev Singh was re-arrested and is in prison awaiting trail. 2nd case cited: nine-year old Pintu Majhi sacrificed by his uncle Pradip Samal. After nine days of interrogation by police, Samal told how he had consulted a tantric who said that to gain prosperity he should kill a child dear to him and offer it to the goddess on an auspicious day. Five days before Pintu & Charano died, members of a youth organization affiliated to the BJP destroyed hundreds of paintings by MF Husain, widely regarded as India's greatest living artist, at an art gallery in Ahmedabad. The extremists, none of whom have been arrested, claimed that Husain had defiled a Hindu Goddess by depicting her naked. In Surendranagar (Gujurat) aid organisations are working with rural villagers whose communities are under the control of 50 tantrics. One group told how 10 women were horribly scarred after being made to plunge their hands into boiling oil to settle a dispute over stolen property - the tantrics had predicted that only the guilty would be burnt. An eminent scientist, Sankarshan Ray, investigated child sacrifice. His report was ignored by govt officials. After his report was published, he was ostracised by the scientific community. He has received hate mail both from devotees of blood rites and those who claimed he has sullied India in the eyes of the West. In 1995, Professor Chandrabanu Pattanayak fled India after receiving death threats when he uncovered evidence of child sacrifice in Orissa and Assam. He actually witnessed the ritual sacrifice of a child in a village. Shortly after reporting his findings to the police, he received his first death threat. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:07:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Jeff Rense radio show Message-ID: <970802120716_-1639103556@emout08.mail.aol.com> well, all you good folks mark down the evening Aug. 14, from 9-11 central time. I'm going to be doing a nationally syndicated radio show and if you set your search engine to the guy's name you can find his web page and learn what station it is on near you. It can also be heard over the web if you have a sound card. I will do my best to be as unholy and Heretical as possible. He's giving me two hours Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 11:28:17 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970802162817.00eb8498@mail.eden.com> At 11:32 AM 8/2/97 -0400, Jerry Schueler wrote: >heaven when we die. This misguided reasoning is also found in Hinduism >and in Theosophy where the idea is that if we are "good theosophists" and >are ethical, we will have good karma, and have a better life next time >around, >and be well on the path of chelaship. This is well-intended, but >misguided. The above may be the "belief" of some Theosophists, but in Hinduism the idea of "be well on the path of chelaship" is not prevalent. It may be an offshoot of the modern Theosophical Movement. ....doss > >I agree with you that we have a downward flow in the order of Love-> >Compassion->Ethics. HPB, Judge, and many others suggest that by >forcing ethics, we will be able to rise to compassion, and then to love as >you have defined it. I would suggest that it just doesn't work that way. >Tibetan Buddhism, for example, has techniques with which we can >develop compassion. They emphasize ethics, but never imply that >morality is an end-all in itself. Most occult schools distaste the sickly- >sweet theosophical emphasis on ethics because ethics should come >naturally, and not be forced. When you suggest to a Seeker of Truth >that s/he should begin by developing ethics, and a strong sense of >right and wrong, then that person feels forced to construct and follow >a set of ethical behaviors, and misses the forest for the trees. Rather, >we should develop compassion, and let ethics take care of itself. > >What you say above, is exactly what I have been saying on theos-l >since its inception--that we need to work on universal love and compassion >and let ethics develop naturally all by itself. If we care for another >person, >chances are high that we will act ethcially with that person, without >thought of reward, and without thought for whether we are right or wrong. > >Jerry S. >Member, TI > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 11:40:30 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Going down Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970802164030.00e8b910@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting msg on the Internet. The msg speaks for itself. If the membership is going down the hill, it is no wonder. Talking only to one's own "sheep" is not likely to help the trend. ..........doss ===================================== > > I subscribed to the theosophy newsgroup a couple of weeks > ago and have been a little disappointed. Most messages are > being sent to many different newsgroups which tells me the > senders are not focused on theosophy, but just want a wide > audience. I don't even read messages that are to multiple > newsgroups anymore. > I do reply to some of the 'SPAM' but delete the 'other' Usenet. I have been, sad to see that there are no folk from the theosophical society, posting on this Usenet. But maybe A.B. was right - the door has closed. In His Service From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 09:56:34 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <199708021656.JAA07063@palrel3.hp.com> "Jerry Schueler" wrote: > Most Christians are ethical, and Chrisitanity (as well as all other > religions) emphasize ethics to the breaking point -- their teaching is that > if we go to church, and are ethical, we will go to heaven when we die. Unfortunately, ethics in Christianity have been contaminated by the sense that they mean outwardly observing a few rules. This has been a very hard image to shake. I rather doubt that most Christians are really ethical. Moralistic, maybe, but not moral. > I agree with you that we have a downward flow in the order of Love-> > Compassion->Ethics. HPB, Judge, and many others suggest that by > forcing ethics, we will be able to rise to compassion, and then to love as > you have defined it. I would suggest that it just doesn't work that way. You are right about forcing ethics in the sense of outwardly following rules while craving to do the opposite. It is the same, for that matter, trying to force anything else - love or compassion included. Love, compassion, ethics all require both inner and outer work. Ethics require a conscience (the inner state) and a will to follow them (the outer fulfillment). To develop love you need to both make the obvious gestures of love and cultivate the inner state. Actions, thoughts and emotions all play off one another. > When you suggest to a Seeker of Truth that s/he should begin by developing > ethics, and a strong sense of right and wrong, then that person feels forced > to construct and follow a set of ethical behaviors, and misses the forest > for the trees. Rather, we should develop compassion, and let ethics take > care of itself. Ethics and compassion play off one another. One cannot develop without the other. People who try for compassion *alone* end up in an enantiodromia, meeting its very opposite: sentimentality. Ethics are the bones, compassion is the flesh. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 19:48:53 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Peaks and Valleys Message-ID: <33eb8a2e.2422247@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron asked of me: >Are you as good looking as you say you are? Better. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 19:48:55 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Animal Souls Message-ID: <33ec8abc.2563734@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Jerry wrote: >>>One thing about the readings which bothers me is the denial >>>that animals have individual souls. In the case of dolphins >>>and several other species, this just doesn't ring true. >> >>Some theosophists claim the same lack of animal soul(s). Like you, I >>don't accept this one bit... > >Paul and Alan, I agree. Actually, HPB says that none of the planes >can be skipped, so that everything on the physical plane has to have >its astral, mental, and causal counterparts even thought they may >not be actively manifesting. I raise Norweign Forest Cats, and >can say with some authority that they each have a "soul" however >you want to define it. I have always liked Leadbeater's analogy of a pail of water being the group soul, and each animal being analogous to taking part of the water that is in the pail and temporarily being put into a separate container, so that it acquires its own unique qualities (which are apparent even in insects), but then, when its life is over, it goes back into the group soul and mixes its qualities with the group soul, just as the water that was in the individual container gets put back into the pail, mixing its qualities with that of all the other water. I don't know how else, but by postulating a group soul, to explain such events as many birds acting simultaneously. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 19:48:49 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <33ea8746.1677958@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron wrote: >> From: Tom Robertson >> Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha >> Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:32 PM >> >> A. Safron wrote: >> >One wonders why you are still subscribed to this list, since it's >> >overabundance of freedom offends you. >> I subscribe because I want to discuss Theosophy, one aspect of which >> is how cynicism causes that in which it believes. >cyn·i·cism (sîn¹î-sîz´em) noun >1. A scornful, bitterly mocking attitude or quality: the public cynicism >aroused by governmental scandals. >2. A scornful, bitterly mocking comment or act. I was using it as "closed-mindedly assuming the worst about others," which might be similar to defining sexism as "closed-mindedly assuming that one member of a gender has certain qualities just because that gender tends to have that quality more than the other gender." Just as the difference between cynicism and skepticism is spiritual, so is the difference between sexism and an accurate perception of the general differences between the genders. To say that men are more logical than women is not sexist, even if it's wrong, which is unlikely. To closed-mindedly assume that any given woman is less logical than the average man is just because women in general are less logical than men are is sexist. I find the correlation between those who accuse others of sexism and those who are cynical, having, in a different form, a similar degree of prejudice as what they believe those whom they consider to be sexist have, to be quite high. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:30:46 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Qabala vs Theosophy Message-ID: In message <199708021531.LAA13752@NetGSI.com>, Jerry Schueler writes > >As I am >>slowly becoming familiar with the Kabbalistic writtings and >>commentaries, Kabbalah shows itself to be the best form in which to >>propose theosophy. I support the general approach of Jerry (below). Kabbalah is *A* theosophy. ie., and expression of "god-wisdom." Having said that, all theosophies and systems are signposts, not homes. > Alan > >I am very uncertain as to what you mean here, but it sounds like >the Qabala is somehow a foundation for theosophy. If this is your >feeling, fine. It is not mine. HPB was familiar with the Qabala, and >yet gave us her own theosophical model anyway (which today's >theosophists ignore because they don't understand it). But HPB >aside, I tried the Tree of Life model years ago and had a lot of >trouble with it. I eventually wound up in the Enochian Magic mileu >with the Watchtower and Aethys model, which I prefer to the Tree >of LIfe. To each his own. My main point here is that you won't >find "truth" in any of these things--they are all just models of >reality, and some models apply better to some people than others. >Thus all have a ring of truth, but we have to remember that they >are human-mind inventions to help us come to grips with >the infinite and eternal. > >Jerry S. >Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:23:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Some funnies Message-ID: In message <199708021249.IAA04759@cliff.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >> >Jupiter going direct? Hmmm. Don't know that one. >> >> On Oct. 8th, according to "The American Ephemeris for the 20th Century". >> >I meant that I didn't know what effect it had when Jupiter went direct. :-) >Does it means we all party? Maybe it means we all get rich? Please? Alan (we could also all get religion) arrrgh. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:27:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970802020510.00e609c0@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >>As you know, I was thrown peremptorily off my Lodge committee [A lodge I >>had been president of for two consecutive years not too long before] for >>promoting an 'alternative organisation'(TI) - AND 'The Internet.' I am >>now one of the EX-members of the TS in England. >> >>Alan > >First case of 'Internet' casualty; what have they got against Internet? It >is like being against telephone or fax or airplane. > >.........doss They can't control it. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 19:46:11 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <33E3C6C3.2FFC@dmv.com> Jerry wrote: > Subject: Qabala vs Theosophy > > >As I am > >slowly becoming familiar with the Kabbalistic writtings and > >commentaries, Kabbalah shows itself to be the best form in which to > >propose theosophy. > > I am very uncertain as to what you mean here, but it sounds like > the Qabala is somehow a foundation for theosophy. Kabbalah contains a theosophy which means it speculates on the divine nature seeking divine wisdom superior to empirical knowledge. > HPB was familiar with the Qabala, and > yet gave us her own theosophical model anyway (which today's > theosophists ignore because they don't understand it). HPB was only vaugely familiar with Kabbalah, although, she gave strong endorsements for the pursuit of kabbalistic theosophy even though her particular brand of theosophy was much more pantheistic having strong ties to Hinduism. >My main point here is that you won't > find "truth" in any of these things--they are all just models of > reality, and some models apply better to some people than others. Kabbalah is a model of theosophy which would be ultimate reality. Models are excellent tools for exploration of systematic knowledge, and in this case the model has magical properties and purposes. > Thus all have a ring of truth, but we have to remember that they > are human-mind inventions to help us come to grips with > the infinite and eternal. The discovery that the "Tree of Life" is a fractal geometry makes less likely the assertion that the Tree or even the Decalogue are human inventions, although, it does not eliminate that possibility. > Subject: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined > > >I've been following this thread with fascination. IMHO, ethics stem from > >compassion and compassion stems from the quality of love. > > I agree with you that we have a downward flow in the order of Love-> > Compassion->Ethics. HPB, Judge, and many others suggest that by > forcing ethics, we will be able to rise to compassion, and then to love as > you have defined it. Ethics stem from self knowledge. Western tradition recommends that one seek self knowledge in order to love completely. > ------------------------------ > Subject: Magick > > >The only thing that we truly posess is our 'sense' of things. Our senses > >and the memory of our senses is the self; we can not posess any thing > >else. > > Very true Vincent, but what what we can do, is to change our "sense" > of things to whatever we want, which is pretty much the definition of > magick. Authentic magick modifies the environment which in turn gives one new sensory experiences. > >Ethics are simply rules of thumb for preserving the > >'integrity' of the soul, enhancing beauty of being, and peaking the > >pleasurable life experience. > > Vincent, are cats ethical? Are dogs? Are elephants? Why is it > that only human beings feel this desperate need to be ethical all > the time? Blavatsky put a great deal of emphasis on "self consciousness". Humans are capable of a very high degree of self knowledge much more than is found in animals such as Coco the gorilla who has been taught language, and has become deluded that she is a human being. As we can see in the case of this gorilla self knowledge can be very problematical as well as being the key to spiritual attainment. If we look deeply into the origin of ethics we find the relationships among the parts of the soul that ethics preserve. To realize that we are built of soul components that function together to produce harmony means that are are necessarily forbidden knowledges and actions. This would be simply reflected in the SOPs that we use for our machines; if that dosen't seem to trivial. >Could it be that only human beings have a developed > manas, and the fact that "mind is the slayer of the real?" > > Jerry S. This is a case where I find that Kabbalah provides valuable insight. Many or most think of the mind in terms of logic or Binah consciousness. What most don't realize is that logic is only one of our simplest systems of reasoning. Very little can be put into logical form; logic must be imposable on a problem if logic is to apply. Most of our able consciousness is concerned with the discrimination of patterns which requires much higher mathematical functions than the simple binary functions of logic. In short very few experience wisdom, the Chokma. So they are given over to minds that 'kill'; thinking that there deductions can demonstrate everything that exists not realizing that they are imposing a simple minded 'system' on their limited experience of a vast and beautiful cosmos where logic is only ugly little part. Later.... Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:39:39 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <199708030313.XAA26543@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha > Date: Saturday, August 02, 1997 5:03 PM > > I was using it as "closed-mindedly assuming the worst about others," > which might be similar to defining sexism as "closed-mindedly assuming > that one member of a gender has certain qualities just because that > gender tends to have that quality more than the other gender." Just > as the difference between cynicism and skepticism is spiritual, so is > the difference between sexism and an accurate perception of the > general differences between the genders. To say that men are more > logical than women is not sexist, even if it's wrong, which is > unlikely. To closed-mindedly assume that any given woman is less > logical than the average man is just because women in general are less > logical than men are is sexist. I find the correlation between those > who accuse others of sexism and those who are cynical, having, in a > different form, a similar degree of prejudice as what they believe > those whom they consider to be sexist have, to be quite high. Boy, you sure an babble on. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 20:00:25 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Peaks and Valleys Message-ID: <199708030313.XAA26550@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > Subject: Re: Peaks and Valleys > Date: Saturday, August 02, 1997 5:03 PM > > A. Safron asked of me: > > >Are you as good looking as you say you are? > > Better. I picture the charm of Tom Cruise, the tenderness of Brad Pitt, the sexy voice of Alec Baldwin, the laid-back charm of Kevin Kostner, the sophistication of Richard Gere, the macho of Bruce Willis, the savvy of Bill Gates, the humor of Mel Gibson and, of course, the smoldering sexuality of Sean Connery. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:13:27 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <199708030313.XAA26558@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Vincent Beall > Subject: Re: Sweet Ethics Defined > Date: Saturday, August 02, 1997 6:46 PM > > > Vincent, are cats ethical? Are dogs? Are elephants? Why is it > > that only human beings feel this desperate need to be ethical all > > the time? > Although animals, IMHO, do not have the consciousness of evolved humans, they do sometimes show glimpses of something more. Recently, there was a news story about a cat who went into a burning building 5 times, each times being burned, to rescue her kittens. On a more spectacular scale, a toddler visiting Brookfield Zoo in Chicago fell into the Gorilla Pit. Injured and unconscious, it lay there for a while till a female gorilla picked it up and carried it to the door where the zookeeper comes out. She waited there till someone came out and took the child from her. This made every newscast in Chicago, always with the question: How could a gorilla have such compassion and common sense? One person answered that she was just doing what she would have done for her own child. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 17:21:30 GMT From: dewberry@poboxes.com (Bee Brown) Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <33e55d2c.68630950@mail.iconz.co.nz> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:44:06 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >>Ethics are simply rules of thumb for preserving the >>'integrity' of the soul, enhancing beauty of being, and peaking the >>pleasurable life experience. > >Vincent, are cats ethical? Are dogs? Are elephants? Why is it >that only human beings feel this desperate need to be ethical all >the time? Could it be that only human beings have a developed >manas, and the fact that "mind is the slayer of the real?" > >Jerry S. >Member, TI Bee Brown writes: As I understand it, to practice self awareness in all situations has a way of showing me when I have fallen short of the goals I have set for myself in this incarnation. I then have a think as to what pushed the buttons and try to understand, so that next time I can react in a manner that is more in line with whatever best suits the situation. I prefer to take it as it comes and not dwell on past slip-ups so that I can try to bring awareness to my encounters with the world I live in. Where it is leading to is only a surmise on my part but theosophy does provide a framework of information that helps the understanding of what I could aim for. Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. Life is not a problem to be solved; it is a mystery to be lived. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 08:03:09 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970802080309.0069e26c@pacbell.net> At 08:49 AM 8/2/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >> >> Very heavy Mercurial and Uranian influences here. I think we are indeed >> seeing the dawing of the Age of Aquarius (ruled by Uranus, Mercury's higher >> octave). > >Ah, another astrologer on the list! Welcome! > >A. Safron Hugs!! {{{{{{Anne}}}}}}}} :-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:36:55 +0100 From: business@eyedeal.u-net.com (Gary Somai) Subject: the Prophet and the teacher Message-ID: This is my first post to this list, so please be gentle with me, if i am in any way upsetting you. I believe there are many who will wish to deny their heart valuable spiritual teaching, on account of strict belief systems which have been imposed onto their hearts by the conditions wrought by the left side of the brain or forehead, i.e. measure/judge the meaning of the enigmatic sacred words from a materialistic exact point of view according to the solid foundation of their belief system, whether a religious one, or one based on exact conditional science. I am not suggesting a teaching of blind faith, but a teaching that allows you to follow the signs given by your heart to the right side of the brain or forehead, not the signs calculated by the left side of your brain, which is blind to anything external to the finite measurable and material universe, (i.e. blind to infinity). Self-realisation is the key to wisdom, not how it is related or understood through exact objective material evidence, (although a useful tool for the physical finite universe). We can all be taught by the true teacher whose temple or abode is within each one of us. We can call him/her/it by whatever name we like, but we will never know his/her/its true name, because that will be like giving relative material meaning to something which is incorporeal and invisible to our five measurable senses. IMHO it is defined as an immeasurable fluidy substance that constantly changes, and which can only be touched upon by our inner senses. In essence it is like an eternal flame, although an incorporeal substance that is very subjective to the material reality of our five outward senses, yet it is the source from which the material universe began and will eventually end, i.e. alpha and omega, albeit a continuous eternal cycle. Sigh....now i might have to explain in exact measured meaning what i have just said in order to pacify those who have drawn fixed conclusions. Unfortunately it is ultimately illogical to explain this in exact measured terminology, which is why each person should seek the unconditional truth within themselves, (no other external body can give you the truth). So do not grasp at straws, sticks or even solid rocks, for even they will crumble into sand in time. For time is the ultimate weapon that will destroy the worship of all physical idols. Moral: Beware of a body which calls itself Christ, Prophet, Messiah, or whatever. A true prophet simply guides you to self-realisation on to the fourth level of initiation, (that is how Jesus became the Christ). Just follow your warm heart, (the free will we have each been given, but have been forced to deny three times), if you can find it that is, for Christ, Prophet, Messiah or whatever, can be found there, seek and you will find. If you think otherwise, then you will miss it and be waiting for a very long time, or you will be decieved by someone or something on the third tier, hungry for power, control or fame. Enjoy life as it was meant to be, not how life is measured up to be, as it will hurt. "It's God Jim, but not as we know it" (-: Gary S. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ | ++++++The Hermetic Doctrine of Cycles++++++ | | Mankind shall reach the point of highest civilisation | | and then relapse again into barbarism | ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 08:25:34 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: the Prophet and the teacher Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970803132534.00b99174@mail.eden.com> At 06:43 AM 8/3/97 -0400, Gary Somai wrote: >This is my first post to this list, so please be gentle with me, if i am in >any way upsetting you. Glad to see you first post, which is thought provoking and wonderful.. As an unmoderated maillist, you are free to post any point of view like everybody else. Don't be daunted by anyone's response, as we are all searching for Truth, while some of us may have our own set of beliefs, which is after all ok. MKRamadoss A novice searching for Truth. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 09:13:03 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: HSO's Statement Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970803141303.00d2e1f4@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting statement by H. S. Olcott, the Founder-President of TS. He should have understood the purpose and goal of TS better than anyone, because fired as he was by the lofty and difficult task ahead of him, he was in his prime of life and he gave up everything went off to an unknown land and worked hard for Theosophy till the end of his life. Even the American HQ of TS(Adyar) is named after him. I think as we are getting near the millenium, the following may be of interest to some. MKR ------------------------------- On Theosophy By H. S. Olcott [Compiled by S. B. Dougherty, from speeches collected in Theosophy, Religion and Occult Science (1885), and from Theosophical Siftings, vol. 4, no. 10 (1891).] I had been a student of practical psychology for nearly a quarter of a century. From boyhood no problem had interested me so much as the mystery of man, and I had been seeking for light upon it wherever it could be found. [On meeting H. P. Blavatsky,] our acquaintance at once ripened into a friendship. We found ourselves to be congenial in opinion, and she brought to our intercourse the great resources of a mind stored with a mass of erudition with regard to the arcane or esoteric philosophies of the ancient times. I found her the most intellectual woman I had ever met in my life, a very eccentric personage, but a person who compelled you to either like her very much or to be very antagonistic to her. Besides these extraordinary literary and mental accomplishments of hers, she also possessed in a very striking degree psychical powers such as we read about in the accounts of the lives of ancient sages, and the proof of the reality of which powers was vouchsafed to many witnesses in America for years before we sailed from New York for India; so that naturally those of us who knew her in those times and subsequently, have been unaffected by all the imputations upon her character that have been so rife during the later years of her life. She was not perfect, yet conceding all her imperfections she was greater than her detractors and we loved her for herself and for her cause. I now look back to that meeting as the most fortunate event of my life; for it made light shine in all the dark places, and sent me out on a mission to help to revive Aryan (1) Occult science, which grows more absorbingly interesting every day. Little by little she opened out to me as much of the truth as my experiences had fitted me to grasp. Step by step I was forced to relinquish illusory beliefs, cherished for twenty years. And as the light gradually dawned on my mind, my reverence for the unseen teachers who had instructed her grew apace. At the same time, a deep and insatiable yearning possessed me to seek their society, or, at least, to take up my residence in a land which their presence glorified, and incorporate myself with a people whom their greatness ennobled. The time came when I was blessed with a visit from one of these Mahatmas in my own room at New York -- a visit from him, not in the physical body, but in the "double," or Mayavi-rupa. . . . This visit and his conversation sent my heart at one leap around the globe, across oceans and continents, over sea and land, to India, and from that moment I had a motive to live for, an end to strive after. That motive was to gain the Aryan wisdom; that end to work for its dissemination. During the three years when I was waiting to come to India, I had other visits from the Mahatmas, and they were not all Hindus or Cashmeris. I know some fifteen in all, and among them Copts, Tibetans, Chinese, Japanese, Siamese, a Hungarian, and a Cypriote. But, whatever they are, however much they may differ externally as to race, religion and caste, they are in perfect agreement as to the fundamentals of occult science and the scientific basis of religion. The Rishis knew the secrets of Nature and of Man, that there is but one common platform of all religions, and that upon it ever stood and now stand, in fraternal concord and amity, the hierophants and esoteric initiates of the world's great faiths. That platform is Theosophy. Many practical problems which seem insoluble to individual thinkers can find their solvent only in an altered disposition of mankind. All religions seek to effect this change of disposition in the individual consciousness. But nearly all religious systems have preferred their specific and distinctive tenets to their true universal basis and inherent tendency, and have thus become the most discordant of influences in the world they would regenerate. Therefore it is that the Theosophical Society has no room for propagandists of any exclusive creed. Religion is most strictly a personal affair: every man makes his own religion and his own God: . . . after all, when it comes to your actual religious experience, it will be your experience, measured and limited by your own personal, psychical and theosophical capacity. [Religion] is also something sacred, something not to be rudely interfered with and pried into. The true moralist will exert his influence to make his fellow-men live up to the best features of their respective faiths; it is the most audacious of experiments to try and glue together bits of a number of good religions into a new mosaic. We are advocating Theosophy as the only method by which one may discover that Eternal Something, not asking people of another creed than ours to take our creed and throw aside their own. We two Founders profess a religion of tolerance, charity, kindness, altruism, or love of one's fellows; a religion that does not try to discover all that is bad in our neighbour's creed, but all that is good, and to make him live up to the best code of morals and piety he can find in it. It is time that we should try to discover the sources of modern ideas, and compare what we think we know of the laws of Nature with what the Asiatic people really did know thousands of years before Europe was inhabited by our barbarian ancestors, or an European foot was set upon the American continent. Suppose that, for a change, we approach the Eastern people in a less presumptuous spirit, and honestly confessing that we know nothing at all of the beginning or end of natural law, ask them to help us to find out what their forefathers knew. This has been the policy of the Theosophical Society, and it has yielded valuable results already [1880]. It is my happiness to not only help to enlarge the boundaries of Western science by showing where the secrets of nature and of man may be experimentally studied, and to give Anglo-Indians a greater respect for the subject nation they rule over, but also to aid in kindling in the bosoms of Indian youths a due reverence for their glorious ancestry, and a desire to imitate them in their noble achievements in science and philosophy. As I see it, the young Hindus, outside the reformatory Samajes, are losing their old religious belief, without gaining, or being ready to embrace, any other. They are becoming exactly like the great mass of educated youth in Europe and America. . . . It is Science which undermined the foundations of Religion; it is Science which should be compelled to erect the new edifice. As an incomplete study of Nature has led to materialistic Atheism (2), so a complete one will lead the eager student back to faith in his inner and nobler self, and in his spiritual destiny. . . . We interfere with no man's creed or caste; we preach no dogma; we offer no article of faith. We point to Nature as the most infallible of all divine revelations, and to Science as the most competent teacher of her mysteries. There is but one truth, and that is to be sought for in the mystical world of man's interior nature; theosophically, and by the help of the "Occult Sciences." . . . If physical facts can be observed by the eye of the body, so can spiritual laws be discovered by that interior perception of ours which we call the eye of the spirit. This perceptive power inheres in the nature of man; it is the godlike quality which makes him superior to brutes. Every man who really did penetrate the mysteries of life and death got the truth in solitude and in a mighty travail of body and spirit. These were all Theosophists -- that is, original searchers after spiritual knowledge. What they did, what they achieved, any other man of equal qualities may attain to. And this is the lesson taught by the Theosophical Society. As they wrested her secrets from the bosom of Nature, so would we. Essentially, a Theosophical Society is one which favours man's original acquisition of knowledge about the hidden things of the universe, by the education and perfecting of his own latent powers. Theosophy differs as widely from philosophy as it does from theology. . . . [It] professes to exclude all dialectical process, and to derive its whole knowledge of God from direct intuition and contemplation. This Theosophy dates from the highest antiquity of which any records are preserved, and every original founder of a religion was a seeker after divine wisdom by the theosophic process of self-illumination. The lusts of the flesh, the pride of life, the prejudices of birth, race, creed (so far as it creates dogmatism), must all be put aside. The body must be made the convenience, instead of the despot, of the higher self. The prison-bars of sense that incarcerate the man of matter must be unlocked, and while living in and being a factor in the outer world, the Theosophist must be able to look into, enter, act in, and return from, the inner world, fraught with divine truth. The Theosophist is a man who, whatever be his race, creed, or condition, aspires to reach this height of wisdom and beatitude by self-development; and, therefore, you will see that in a Theosophical Society like that we have founded -- to have one creed for our members to subscribe to, or one form of prayer for them to adopt, or any rules that would interfere with their individual relations to caste, or any other social and external environment not actually antipathetic to Theosophical research, would be impossible. . . . we are not preaching a new religion, or founding a new sect, or a new school of philosophy or occult science. Now it has been remarked that this movement was floated on phenomena. To a certain extent that is true, but the fault probably is more with myself than with [H. P. Blavatsky]. The things she did were so novel and striking to me, they were so interesting to me as a veteran student of psychology, they had such an important scientific bearing upon the problem of the powers of man and the latent forces of nature, that naturally I urged her to continual displays of these powers before a variety of witnesses. Reluctantly she complied, and the result was most unfortunate; it vindicated the wisdom of that reticence which had been the policy of all the great sages and adepts in the past. Neither pessimist nor optimist, I am not satisfied that our race is doomed to destruction, present or future, nor that the moral sense of society can be kept undiminished without constant refreshment from the parent fount. That fount I conceive to be Theosophical study and personal illumination, and I regard him as a benefactor to his kind who points out to the sceptical, the despairing, the world-weary, the heart-hungry, that the vanities of the world do not satisfy the soul's aspirations, and that true happiness can only be acquired by interior self-development, purification and enlightenment. (From Sunrise magazine, February/March 1997. Copyright © 1997 by Theosophical University Press) FOOTNOTES: 1. [Olcott always used Aryan in reference to Hindustan, and especially to its ancient sages; aryan comes from the Sanskrit word for "noble." -- Ed.] 2. Atheism, in the sense of disbelief of even the Universal Principle. -- HSO. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 19:09:59 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Tid-Bit on Karma Message-ID: <33eed744.16367029@mail.earthlink.net> Just a little something that I picked up surfing and thought that perhaps it might be found informative here. Enjoy !!! [:->>The Quotes [:->>********** [:->>(A principle of Science) [:->> "For every action there is a resultant and corresponding reaction. [:->> [:->>("The Karate Kid" - Daniel Larusso) [:->> What goes around comes around. [:->> [:->>(Galatians 6:7) [:->> Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, [:->>that shall he also reap. [:->> [:->>(Ramana Maharshi) [:->> He gives the fruit to each person according to his actions [karma]. [:->>That means that Iswara is only an agent and that he gives wages [:->>according to the labor done. That is all. [:->> [:->>(Sri Swami Sivananda) [:->> The consequence of an action is really not a separate thing. It is a [:->>part of the action and cannot be divided from it. [:->> [:->>(The Urantia Papers; Paper-148 Section-6) [:->> "Although transgression of divine law is sooner or later followed by [:->>the harvest of punishment, while men certainly eventually do reap [:->>what they sow, still you should know that human suffering is not [:->>always a punishment for antecedent sin. [:->>******************************************* [:->> I have yet to encounter a belief system [and I have encountered [:->>many, I assure you] which has no equivalent for a concept equivalent [:->>to Karma. Although described by each in subtly different ways and [:->>called by many different names, it is one belief that most on this [:->>planet would agree to be fairly consistent with reality. [:->> [:->> If you never service your car, chances are really good [:->>that it will eventually break down. If you kick a large rock, [:->>chances are really good that it will hurt. If you continually try to [:->>hurt someone, chances are really good that it will cause them to [:->>avoid you. If you continually look to see all the evil and sin that [:->>is evident in this world, chances are really good that, for the most [:->>part, that is what you will find. [:->> [:->> Why is it that generally when we pause to consider cause and effect, [:->>our first inclination is to look at the negative side of it? If you [:->>do something bad, you will get something bad. It seems like from the [:->>time we come into this world, we are told: "don't do..."; "Thou shalt [:->>not..."; "it is against the law to...". I think that the reason is [:->>primarily one of Fear. We are afraid to do something wrong lest we [:->>reap the bitter consequences. How often is that fear the cause of [:->>our resigning ourselves to expect only pain and suffering so that we [:->>end up doing nothing at all? [:->> [:->> The negative side of karma usually seems to provide somewhat more [:->>quickly recognized results than does the positive side. Or at least [:->>so it appears on the surface. I'm beginning to experience in my own [:->>life, that this is not really so. I am discovering that giving [:->>unconditional love... or being kind... or performing an unselfish [:->>service gives Instant results. one day I just decided to look for [:->>them... the "good" results. Know what? I just used to take those [:->>results for granted. They were so immediate that they passed by my [:->>conscious mind with hardly another thought. But... they were [:->>there... and they always had been. Ain't dat sumpthin!!! Hidden [:->>there right in front of my very eyes. [:->> [:->> Good begets Good... Unconditional Love begets Unconditional Love... [:->>Unselfish Service begets Unselfish Service. The results may not [:->>always happen where we might expect or wish that they would from a [:->>circumscribed viewpoint, but in the Big Picture they invariably [:->>manifest in exactly the right place for the greatest good of all [:->>concerned. [:->> [:->> John Lennon once wrote: "Instant Karma's going to get you." Instant [:->>Karma may not be recognizable to the ego, but it is truly perceivable [:->>by the Soul. [:->> [:->>Do Good, Love Unconditionally, and Serve Unselfishly... "for [:->>whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." ___ {~ ~} ~~~~~~~~~~oo0~(_)~0oo~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We are not all crazy -- It is all in our heads, You have to seek your own salvation -- In the end the final truth is between the lines, The narrow path gets harder to find -- It is not what is done but rather a state of mind. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j.}`-`{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "On this Path effort never goes to waste and never a failure" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 09:25:01 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: The View of the (M) Chohan Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970803142501.006ada44@mail.eden.com> The following letter is considered by every Theosophical Leader from HPB onwards, as the charter for the Theosophical Society. At a time of declining membership, and at the same time unequaled opportunity that modern technological communication provides, it might be a good idea to ponder over what Chohan has to say. In one of the letter in ML to APS, there was a statement that whatever results we see are the results of our own actions and in the light of it, is it possible that the declining membership may be just the result of the direction that TS has taken all over the world. May be each one of us in our own way contribute what we can to further the cause of betterment of the conditions of Humanity. MKR ---------------------------------- View of the Chohan on the T. S. Several good reasons given to K.H. by the Chohan why the T.S. should be a Brotherhood of Humanity. The doctrine we promulgate being the only true one, must, -- supported by such evidence as we are preparing to give -- become ultimately triumphant as every other truth. Yet it is absolutely necessary to inculcate it, gradually enforcing its theories, unimpeachable facts for those who know, with direct inferences deducted from and corroborated by the evidence furnished by modern exact science. That is why Col H.S.O. who works but to revive Buddhism may be regarded as one who labours in the true path of Theosophy, far more than any other man who chooses as his goal the gratification of his own ardent aspirations for occult knowledge. Buddhism stripped of its superstitions is eternal truth, and he who strives for the latter is striving for Theos-sophia, Divine Wisdom, which is a synonym of truth. For our doctrines to practically react on the so called moral code or the ideas of truthfulness, purity, self-denial, charity, etc., we have to preach and popularise a knowledge of theosophy. It is not the individual and determined purpose of attaining oneself Nirvana (the culmination of all knowledge and absolute wisdom) which is, after all, only an exalted and glorious selfishness, but the self-sacrificing pursuit of the best means to lead on the right path our neighbour, to cause as many of our fellow creatures as we possibly can to benefit by it, which constitutes the true Theosophist. The intellectual portions of mankind seem to be fast dividing into two classes, the one unconsciously preparing for itself long periods of temporary annihilation or states of non-consciousness owing to the deliberate surrender of their intellect, its imprisonment in the narrow grooves of bigotry and superstition, a process which cannot fail to lead to the utter deformation of the intellectual principle; the other unrestrainedly indulging its animal propensities with the deliberate intention of submitting to annihilation pure and simple in cases of failure, to millenniums of degradation after physical dissolution. Those "intellectual classes," reacting upon the ignorant masses which they attract and which look up to them as noble and fit examples to follow, degrade and morally ruin those they ought to protect and guide. Between degrading superstition and still more degrading brutal materialism the white dove of truth has hardly room where to rest her weary unwelcome foot. . . . It's time that Theosophy should enter the arena. The sons of Theosophists are more likely to become in their turn Theosophists than anything else. No messenger of truth, no prophet has ever achieved during his life time a complete triumph, not even Buddha; the Theosophical Society was chosen as the corner stone, the foundation of the future religion of humanity. To achieve the proposed object a greater, wiser, and especially a more benevolent intermingling of the high and the low, of the alpha and the omega of society, was determined upon. The white race must be the first to stretch out the hand of fellowship to the dark nations, to call the poor despised "nigger" brothers. This prospect may not smile to all. He is no Theosophist who objects to this principle. . . . In view of the ever increasing triumph and at the same time misuse of free-thought and liberty (the Universal reign of Satan, Eliphas Levi would have called it), how is the combative natural instinct of man to be restrained from inflicting hitherto unheard of cruelties and enormities, tyranny, injustice, etc., if not through the soothing influence of a brotherhood and of the practical application of Buddha's esoteric doctrines. For as everyone knows, total emancipation from authority of the one all pervading power or law called God by the Theists -- Buddha, Divine Wisdom and Enlightenment or Theosophy by the philosophers of all ages -- means also the emancipation from that of human law. Once unfettered [and] delivered from their dead weight of dogmatic interpretations, personal names, anthropomorphic conceptions and salaried priests, the fundamental doctrines of all religions will be proved identical in their esoteric meaning. Osiris, Chrishna, Buddha, Christ, will be shown as different means for one and [the] same royal highway to final bliss, Nirvana. Mystical christianity, that is to say that christianity which teaches self redemption through one's own seventh principle -- the liberated Para-atma (Augoeides) called by the one Christ, by others Buddha, and equivalent to regeneration or rebirth in spirit -- will be found just the same truth as the Nirvana of mystical Buddhism. All of us have to get rid of our own Ego, the illusory apparent self, to recognise our true self in a transcendental divine life. But if we would not be selfish we must strive to make other people see that truth, to recognise the reality of that transcendental self, the Buddh, the Christ or God of every preacher. This is why even exoteric Buddhism is the surest path to lead men toward the one esoteric truth. As we find the world now, whether Christian, Mussalman or Pagan, justice is disregarded and honour and mercy both flung to the winds. In a word, how, once that the main objects of the T.S. are misinterpreted by those who are most willing to serve us personally, are we to deal with the rest of mankind, with that curse known as the "struggle for life," which is the real and most prolific parent of most woes and sorrows and of all the crimes? Why has that struggle become the almost universal scheme of the universe? We answer, because no religion with the exception of Buddhism has hitherto taught a practical contempt for this earthly life, while each of them, always with that one solitary exception, has through its hells and damnations inculcated the greatest dread of death. Therefore do we find that struggle for life raging most fiercely in Christian countries, most prevalent in Europe and America. It weakens in the Pagan lands and is nearly unknown among Buddhist populations. (In China during famine and where the masses are most ignorant of their own or any religion, it was remarked that those mothers who devoured their children belonged to localities where there were the most of Christian missionaries to be found. Where there were none and the Bonzes alone had the field the population died with the utmost indifference.) Teach the people to see that life on this earth even the happiest is but a burden and an illusion, that it is but our own Karma, the cause producing the effect, that is our own judge, our Saviour in future lives, and the great struggle for life will soon lose its intensity. There are no penitentiaries in Buddhist lands and crime is nearly unknown among the Buddhist Tibetans. (The above is not addressed to you, and has nought to do with the work of the Simla Eclectic Society. It is meant only as an answer to the erroneous impression in Mr. Hume's mind of the "Ceylon work" as no theosophy.) The world in general and Christendom especially, left for two thousand years to the regime of a personal God as well as its political and social systems based on that idea, has now proved a failure. If the Theosophists say, we have nothing to do with all this, the lower classes and the inferior races (those of India for instance in the conception of the British) cannot concern us and must manage as they can, what becomes of our fine professions of benevolence, philanthropy, reform, etc. Are these professions a mockery? And if a mockery, can ours be the true path? Shall we devote our selves to teaching a few Europeans fed on the fat of the land, many of them loaded with the gifts of blind fortune, the rationale of bell ringing, cup growing, of the spiritual telephone and astral body formation, and leave the teeming millions of the ignorant, of the poor and despised, the lowly and the oppressed, to take care of themselves and of their hereafter the best they know how. Never. Rather perish the Theosophical Society with both its hapless founders than that we should permit it to become no better than an academy of magic and a hall of occultism. That we, the devoted followers of that spirit incarnate of absolute self sacrifice, of philanthropy, divine kindness, as of all the highest virtues attainable on this earth of sorrow, the man of men, Gautama Buddha, should ever allow the Theosophical Society to represent the embodiment of selfishness, the refuge of the few with no thought in them for the many, is a strange idea, my brothers. Among the few glimpses obtained by Europeans of Tibet and its mystical hierarchy of "perfect lamas," there is one which was correctly understood and described. "The incarnations of the Boddisatwa Padma Pani or Avalo-Kiteswara and of Tsong Kapa, that of Amitabha, relinquish at their death the attainment of Buddhahood -- i.e. the summum bonum of bliss, and of individual personal felicity -- that they might be born again and again for the benefit of mankind." [Rhys Davids] In other words, that they might be again and again subjected to misery, imprisonment in flesh and all the sorrows of life, provided that by such a self sacrifice repeated throughout long and dreary centuries they might become the means of securing salvation and bliss in the hereafter for a handful of men chosen among but one of the many races of mankind. And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect lamas, who are expected to allow the T.S. to drop its noblest title, that of the Brotherhood of Humanity to become a simple school of psychology? No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long already. Let us understand each other. He who does not feel competent enough to grasp the noble idea sufficiently to work for it, need not undertake a task too heavy for him. But there is hardly a theosophist in the whole society unable to effectually help it by correcting the erroneous impressions of the outsiders, if not by actually propagating himself the idea. Oh, for the noble and unselfish man to help us effectually in India in that divine task. All our knowledge past and present would not be sufficient to repay him. . . . Having explained our views and aspirations I have but a few words more to add. To be true, religion and philosophy must offer the solution of every problem. That the world is in such a bad condition morally is a conclusive evidence that none of its religions and philosophies, those of the civilised races less than any other, have ever possessed the truth. The right and logical explanations on the subject of the problems of the great dual principles -- right and wrong, good and evil, liberty and despotism, pain and pleasure, egotism and altruism -- are as impossible to them now as they were 1881 years ago. They are as far from the solution as they ever were but, -- To these there must be somewhere a consistent solution, and if our doctrines will show their competence to offer it, then the world will be the first one to confess that must be the true philosophy, the true religion, the true light, which gives truth and nothing but the truth. ---------------- end -------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 97 15:51:23 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: >> >> Very heavy Mercurial and Uranian influences here. I think we are indeed >> seeing the dawing of the Age of Aquarius (ruled by Uranus, Mercury's higher >> octave). > >Ah, another astrologer on the list! Welcome! > >A. Safron Hugs!! {{{{{{Anne}}}}}}}} :-D Lynn Keith: Astrologers UNITE, if the theosophists won't :) Astrology has its mathetics, but it is very open to interpretation as is theosophy, if the truth were told! IMHO Jupiter goes direct October 9th, I found my emphemeris. Maybe things will lighten up around them. Jupiter will inspire higher learning and philisophical pursuits. I hope I can make it :) Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 97 16:04:27 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: BEE, sure?? Message-ID: Bee writes: Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. Life is not a problem to be solved; it is a mystery to be lived. Keith: Some really feel that theosophy has solved the mystery or will. I had someone tell me this at a Lodge meeting. Mysteries, by definition, come from another dimension that the physcial. I side with the people that think we have more to learn. I side with HPB that said the SD was only a nosegay of collection of other's thought and more will be learned. Some obviously can't read Namste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:20:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Brains Message-ID: NEWS ITEM: Men have about 4bn more brain cells than women, Danish researchers have said. But they have not worked out what men do with them. Neurologist Bente Pakkenberg examined the brains of 94 people aged 20 to 90. Asked what the men might be doing with the surplus, she said: "It's a mystery. The knowledge we already have shows men are not smarter than women." --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:54:58 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Animal Souls Message-ID: <199708031906.PAA26339@NetGSI.com> > have always liked Leadbeater's analogy of a pail of water being the >group soul, and each animal being analogous to taking part of the >water that is in the pail and temporarily being put into a separate >container, so that it acquires its own unique qualities (which are >apparent even in insects), but then, when its life is over, it goes >back into the group soul and mixes its qualities with the group soul, >just as the water that was in the individual container gets put back >into the pail, mixing its qualities with that of all the other water. >I don't know how else, but by postulating a group soul, to explain >such events as many birds acting simultaneously. This is one way to look at it. In exactly the same sense, human beings do the same thing. But when either humans or animals return to embodiment on earth, they pick up where they left off, because animals (and vegetables, and minerals) have skandhas too. The corresponding analogy used often in the East is that we are each like waves on the ocean, and death is much like a wave returning to the sea. The next wave rises as a new and separate wave, but contains a lot of the same water. We cab think of the ocean as a group soul, if we want to, or think of it like a life-wave. However, we think of it, it is this "ocean" that contains the collective karma of every species or group of living beings on earth. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:34:05 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Forced Ethics Message-ID: <199708031906.PAA26335@NetGSI.com> >You are right about forcing ethics in the sense of outwardly following rules >while craving to do the opposite. It is the same, for that matter, trying to >force anything else - love or compassion included. Titus, Theosophy is big on arguing against forced psychic development, but says nothing at all about forced ethical behavior. I agree with you that forcing anything should be avoided. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:47:09 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <199708031906.PAA26337@NetGSI.com> >Ethics and compassion play off one another. One cannot develop without the >other. People who try for compassion *alone* end up in an enantiodromia, >meeting its very opposite: sentimentality. Ethics are the bones, compassion >is the flesh. You can have ethics without compassion (because they can have difference motives--and actually MOST folks have an ethical code without any real compassion). But I don't think you can have compassion without ethical behavior, because caring for others is sufficient motivation for acting ethically in most cases. So, I don't see how they can "play off one another." Perhaps you intended to say that they "should" play off one another, but I don't really go for that either--ethics should be the effect, and compassion the cause. Sentimentality is exactly what I meant by "sickly sweet ethics." In the Crowleyian sense, its love without will. Love without being directed by will tends to mire down in sentiment and mushy goody-goodyness that sounds nice but goes nowhere. But will without love has its own set of problems, which I find in all too many occult and magical organizations. The two should go together. The way I see it, compassion is the bones and ethics the flesh, because ethical behavior should only be supported by an honest concern for others--so long as it is supported by personal desire to go to heaven or to get better karma or a better life next time, or suchlike, it is wasted effort. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:30:07 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <199708031906.PAA26332@NetGSI.com> > The above may be the "belief" of some Theosophists, but in Hinduism the >idea of "be well on the path of chelaship" is not prevalent. It may be an >offshoot of the modern Theosophical Movement. > > ....doss You may be right, simply because most Hindus take the theosophical idea that chelaship and adepthood are too far in the future to worry about (which is an unfortunate mistaken idea). However, they do worry about good and bad karma a lot. The idea of action without rewards is foreign to most all religions, but Theosophy does endorse it. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 97 19:16:08 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: A thought experiment -in do-nuts Message-ID: Some of you may be familiar with the work of Stan and Christina Grof (at Esalen) with holistic breathing. It a kind of Western pranayama yoga. You lie down and breath very deeply and heavily as a long as you can while listening to evocative music (whatever suits your taste from new age to classical) You may also press down lightly on the closed eyelids to sitmulate the optic nerve. The results are quite biochemical and not just wishful thinking. One actually lowers the carbon dioxide in one's blood rather than increasing the oxygen studies have shown. Most people will begin to see grid like, op art like patterns, next you may fell like you are moving through a tunnel. You will see a somewhat dim green or purplish light. Inside the purple circle is ususally a black hole shaped amazingly like a UFO or flying saucer. Stan Tenen has done a lot of work with mathematics and the Jewish letters to just that the universe is shaped like a doughnut, bagel, cherrio or in mathematics called a torus. This bagel universe is three dimensional and can generate many things including fractals, and growth type equations when combined with the dodecahedron and time (space time being the fourth dimension, or including it anyway). You can only put seven colors, no more and no less, touching on the torus. The torus, unlike the cherrio, can revolve around many axes including turing inside out. Maybe univer is not like a ball, but like a bowl of cherrios ( made out of jello, in a soup of clear jell -light/energy). There are coutless parallel cherrio/universes blissfull fractalizing. The infinity symbol or the urobourus is the dough-nut twisted like a pretzel ( this may not be too spiritual, but it can make one hungry:>) Anyway the deep coding of DNA and the alphabets was supposed to be know by the Egyptians, the Atlanteans and the cosmic progenitors of humanity the Agniswattas (whether they came from Venus or the Pleides or Orion depends on who you ask!) Decoding the DNA has led to much power of cloning, recombinant DNA for medicine and other uses we have only begun to tap. Using the alphabets in decoded sacred geometric form can lead to a "burning bush" experience, I am told. Psychedelics and amy nitrate along with tantric delayed orgasm (now the rage in Hollywood, wouldn't you know?) can lead to left hand degraded ) (???), experience of yantras or sacred geometry of the East which contains similar esoteric or hidden coding. If you don't believe me, try deep breathing and pressing your closed eyelids gently as a personal experiment. I would be interested in you results, if any. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:19:02 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Qabala vs Theosophy Message-ID: <199708031959.PAA28122@NetGSI.com> >HPB was only vaugely familiar with Kabbalah, although, she gave strong >endorsements for the pursuit of kabbalistic theosophy even though her >particular brand of theosophy was much more pantheistic having strong >ties to Hinduism. I respect your opinion. She was a lot more versed in Kabbalah than I am (I am reasonably versed in Qabala, but know very little of Kabbalah--I leave that to Alan). I am uncertain what you mean by Hinduistic pantheism. I don't see much difference between the Cosmocrators or Manus of HPB and the Angels or Archangels of the Kabbalah. >Kabbalah is a model of theosophy which would be ultimate reality. Models >are excellent tools for exploration of systematic knowledge, and in this >case the model has magical properties and purposes. Here we have a point of difference. I see theosophy (little t) as the pursuit of ultimate reality, but not ultimate reality itself. The fact that the Kabbalah and Qabala have magical properties is the very reason why most good theosophists shun them. Like you, I enjoy the magic, and in fact have dubbed the entire inner 5 planes the Magical Universe to emphasize the point. >The discovery that the "Tree of Life" is a fractal geometry makes less >likely the assertion that the Tree or even the Decalogue are human >inventions, although, it does not eliminate that possibility. The entire Magical Universe is fractal. Life is fractal. Earth is fractal. It is my personal opinion that the Tree of Life is, indeed, a human invention. So are the Watchtowers and Aethyrs of Enochian Magic. So are the Aeons of Gnosticism, and the Pylons of Osiris of the ancient Egyptians. And even so are the Globes and Planes of HPB's model. All are human created attempts to organize infinity and eternity. This does not denigrate them, nor denigrate their enormous value as mental maps or structures to allow us to keep our sanity while exploring these regions. >Ethics stem from self knowledge. Western tradition recommends >that one seek self knowledge in order to love completely. This is a different slant on the picture, but I can't disagree with you. The thing is, when we finally come to grips with our "self" we will learn that we are not so different from others. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you is still probably the only real ethical law we need. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:36:14 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Magick Message-ID: <199708031959.PAA28124@NetGSI.com> >As we can see in the >case of this gorilla self knowledge can be very problematical as well as >being the key to spiritual attainment. If we look deeply into the origin >of ethics we find the relationships among the parts of the soul that >ethics preserve. To realize that we are built of soul components that >function together to produce harmony means that are are necessarily >forbidden knowledges and actions. Yes humans have self-consciousness more than animals (who DO have some, contrary to what a lot of experts think). But what does this have to do with ethics? I can't see any "parts of the soul that ethics preserve." Maybe we differ about the word ethics itself? I see ethics are a set of right and wrong behaviors. As to soul-components, ethics would apply to the conscience alone. Our conscience is our sense of right and wrong. The little girl that I adopted had no conscience when she came to us at 8 years of age, and still has none at 12. The experts say she probably never will. She is one of those "children without a conscience" that you may have read about. Its a very sad thing to see. She does not have a clue what "guilt" means, and has never shown this emotion to me or to my wife. But she does have a small amount of love and compassion, and this small spark carries her through the day. Actually most "soul components" do not produce much harmony. Not with most people. And one of the problems is the conscience. In Jungian psychology, this equates to the Shadow archetype, which will only allow harmony when it is in balance with the Persona. Jung taught that the problem with ethics and morals was the very first step in the individuation process that we have to settle. The entire dualistic battle between right and wrong, good and evil, must be resolved within each psyche in order to proceed with individuation. I haven't a clue what you mean by forbidden knowledges and actions. Do you mean repression? Repression is how things get stuck in the Shadow in the first place. Healing comes about by self- knowledge. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:49:08 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Magickal Response to Vincent Message-ID: <199708031959.PAA28126@NetGSI.com> >This is a case where I find that Kabbalah provides valuable insight. >Many or most think of the mind in terms of logic or Binah consciousness. Whoa!! Binah is above the Abyss, and is vastly superior to logic and reason, which I would put at the Hod level. Binah is Understanding, an intuitive function. >In short very few experience wisdom, the Chokma. Since Chokmah is above the Abyss and second only to Kether, I would dare say that only a handful of mystics have experienced it. >So they are given over >to minds that 'kill'; thinking that there deductions can demonstrate >everything that exists not realizing that they are imposing a simple >minded 'system' on their limited experience of a vast and beautiful >cosmos where logic is only ugly little part. Right, they are given over to Tiphareth, which knows only what lies below the Abyss. This summarizes the Gnostic doctrine of the Demiurge, who came from Sophia but knows it not. The human mind looks out at the world, and thinks that this is all there is. Enochian Magic has logic and reason in the 26th Aethyr, DES. This is only the 5th Aethyr out of 30, and pretty low on the scale of existence. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:48:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Valleys Message-ID: In message <199708030313.XAA26550@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >I picture the charm of Tom Cruise, the tenderness of Brad Pitt, the sexy voice >of >Alec Baldwin, the laid-back charm of Kevin Kostner, the sophistication of >Richard >Gere, the macho of Bruce Willis, the savvy of Bill Gates, the humor of Mel >Gibson >and, of course, the smoldering sexuality of Sean Connery. > So why do I keep gettng an mental image of that little guy in "Taxi" - ? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:45:26 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: <199708040026.UAA25665@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > Subject: Astrologers Unite! > Date: Sunday, August 03, 1997 10:55 AM > >Ah, another astrologer on the list! Welcome! > > > > > >A. Safron > > Hugs!! {{{{{{Anne}}}}}}}} :-D > > Lynn > > Keith: Astrologers UNITE, if the theosophists won't :) Astrology has its > mathetics, but it is very open to interpretation as is theosophy, if the truth > were told! IMHO > > Jupiter goes direct October 9th, I found my emphemeris. Maybe things will > lighten up around them. Jupiter will inspire higher learning and > philisophical pursuits. I hope I can make it :) > Astrologers are united by being astrologers and also by the fact that most of the people in the US think they're nuts and make fun of them. In many towns they are banned from practicing, considered fortune tellers and frauds. That kind of thing will unite you for sure! But there are many astrologers with many different ideas and theories as their are Theosophists. I'm ignorant of Jupiter retros. If anyone on this list can enlighten me, I'll be very grateful. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:46:39 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Brains Message-ID: <199708040026.UAA25679@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Brains > Date: Sunday, August 03, 1997 1:48 PM > > NEWS ITEM: > > Men have about 4bn more brain cells > than women, Danish researchers have > said. But they have not worked out what > men do with them. > They are trying to figure out to get a woman. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:56:12 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Practical Application of Karma! Message-ID: <199708040026.UAA25692@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > Subject: Practical Application of Karma! > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:06 PM > > This was a story that has been written up. I do not know if it is real or > just some one's fiction. > > Two cars were involved in an auto accident and both were expensive luxury > cars. The owners were driving the cars. Owner/driver of one of the cars got > out and went to the driver of second car and apologized to the him. The > owner/driver of second car got out and hugged the other driver and told him > that it was god that made the accident happen and hence not to worry about > it since insurance company will take care of the damage and said we are all > brothers. > > Normally in situations like this the drivers get emotional. I think for most people there is a natural powerful emotional reaction to automatically blame the other person, in order to avoid their own guilt. Keeping calm and sticking to the facts, like insurance, drivers's license, address, phone number should focus people on the details of getting the accident cleared away as quickly as possible and out of the distraction of the street. Unfortunately, I have found that rarely to be so. Most people are too emotionally focussed to do this, but I did once encounter a lovelly young lady who was traveling with her boyfriend and was in an accident. He spoke only Polish, so she graciously handled all the details. There are sane people out there. A. Safron > > ......doss > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:46:34 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Aspartame Message-ID: <199708040046.UAA00430@marconi.concentric.net> Jump for Joy, Doss! I've kicked the aspartame habit (almost). What precipitated this move? Was it health concerns? Web pages claiming that it causes everything from shingles to Alzheimers? An ache in my big toe? NO. It was sheer boredom. One day I looked at all those brightly colored cans with fruity artificial flavors and said, "Yuk." "Who am I, some kind of kid that craves kool-aid?" Aproaching 50, I decided it was the dignified thing to do and switched to flavored mineral waters and iced herbal teas, besides a few other miscellaneous things. My only vice left is an occasional diet cola. Personally, I think the claims on the aspartame web pages are alarmist and ludicrious. They have no scientific studies (or mega-bucks) to back them up. My humble theory is that living will make you sick and die, because that is the way of things. Yes, my tangerine Diet-Rite has gone down the the drain, but not for health's sake. Sheer boredom did the trick. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 20:34:10 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970804013410.00c5af98@mail.eden.com> At 08:27 PM 8/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: JOSEPH PRICE >> Subject: Astrologers Unite! >> Date: Sunday, August 03, 1997 10:55 AM > >> >Ah, another astrologer on the list! Welcome! >> > >> > >> >A. Safron >> >> Hugs!! {{{{{{Anne}}}}}}}} :-D >> >> Lynn >> >> >> Keith: Astrologers UNITE, if the theosophists won't :) Astrology has its >> mathetics, but it is very open to interpretation as is theosophy, if the truth >> were told! IMHO >> >> Jupiter goes direct October 9th, I found my emphemeris. Maybe things will >> lighten up around them. Jupiter will inspire higher learning and >> philisophical pursuits. I hope I can make it :) >> >Astrologers are united by being astrologers and also by the fact that >most of the people in the US think they're nuts and make fun of them. In many >towns they are banned from practicing, considered fortune tellers and frauds. >That kind of thing will unite you for sure! But there are many astrologers >with many different ideas and theories as their are Theosophists. > >I'm ignorant of Jupiter retros. If anyone on this list can enlighten me, I'll >be very grateful. > >A. Safron Astrology may be new to the West, but has been effectively used for many centuries in the East. Even politicians when they take office, will consult an astrologer to find the most propitious time. Personally I had the unique experience of an amateur astrologer casually predicting my future profession 20 years before it happened. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 20:35:49 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970804013549.00c8f8cc@mail.eden.com> At 08:27 PM 8/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: JOSEPH PRICE >> Subject: Astrologers Unite! >> Date: Sunday, August 03, 1997 10:55 AM > >> >Ah, another astrologer on the list! Welcome! >> > >> > >> >A. Safron >> >> Hugs!! {{{{{{Anne}}}}}}}} :-D >> >> Lynn >> >> >> Keith: Astrologers UNITE, if the theosophists won't :) Astrology has its >> mathetics, but it is very open to interpretation as is theosophy, if the truth >> were told! IMHO >> >> Jupiter goes direct October 9th, I found my emphemeris. Maybe things will >> lighten up around them. Jupiter will inspire higher learning and >> philisophical pursuits. I hope I can make it :) >> >Astrologers are united by being astrologers and also by the fact that >most of the people in the US think they're nuts and make fun of them. In many >towns they are banned from practicing, considered fortune tellers and frauds. >That kind of thing will unite you for sure! But there are many astrologers >with many different ideas and theories as their are Theosophists. > >I'm ignorant of Jupiter retros. If anyone on this list can enlighten me, I'll >be very grateful. > >A. Safron There used to be a very famous member of TS who was also a famous astrologer. I think he was Alan Leo and he wrote several articles in the Theosophist in the 20s and 30s. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 20:57:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Aspartame Message-ID: <33E53713.637D@eden.com> A. Safron wrote: > > Jump for Joy, Doss! I've kicked the aspartame habit (almost). > > What precipitated this move? Was it health concerns? > Web pages claiming that it causes everything from shingles > to Alzheimers? An ache in my big toe? > > NO. It was sheer boredom. One day I looked at all those > brightly colored cans with fruity artificial flavors and said, > "Yuk." "Who am I, some kind of kid that craves kool-aid?" > > Aproaching 50, I decided it was the dignified thing to do > and switched to flavored mineral waters and iced herbal > teas, besides a few other miscellaneous things. My only > vice left is an occasional diet cola. > > Personally, I think the claims on the aspartame web pages are alarmist > and ludicrious. They have no scientific studies (or mega-bucks) > to back them up. My humble theory is that living will make you > sick and die, because that is the way of things. > > Yes, my tangerine Diet-Rite has gone down the the drain, > but not for health's sake. Sheer boredom did the trick. > > A. Safron Glad to see your msg. I quit using all sugar substitutes including Aspartame after it affected my eyesight and also later I realised it had put a lot of strain on my eyes. I did not want to wait until I became a statistic to learn that Aspartame is deadly. .....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 21:02:49 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet and Iran and Islam Message-ID: <33E53849.5300@eden.com> Here is an interesting news item. If Iran and their Moslem Clergy have taken note and recognized the importance of Internet, I hope any "theosophists" who talk of theos-l as doggie-doo better start rethink their ideas about Internet and maillists. Soon they all will be left behind for their own good. ............doss ================================== >From CNN On-line News: Islam, Iran and the Internet May 22, 1997 Web posted at: 2:47 p.m. EDT (1847 GMT) QOM, Iran (CNN) -- Eighteen years after launching their Islamic republic -- a government built on Muslim fundamentals -- Iran's leaders remain split over how to reconcile the demands of religion with the realities of the 1990s. The holy city of Qom -- a center of pilgrimage for the Shi'ite faithful -- celebrates the spendors of its past. At the same time, however, the clergy are mindful of the future. At the Ayatollah Gulpaybahane Computer Center in one of the city's theological colleges, Muslim instructors known as mullahs are transferring over 2,000 Islamic teachings -- first to CD-ROM and then to the Internet. When it comes to spreading Islamic beliefs, they know the Net is a resource they can't afford to ignore, even though some of Iran's leaders have spoken out fiercely against dangerous Western influences just a mouse-click away. The director of the computer center, Sheikh Ali Korani, doesn't debate the issue but says the Internet is a reality that Iran must learn to live with. "Take a knife, for example. You can use it in the kitchen or you can use it to commit crimes," he says. "Many things have such a double nature and the Internet is one of them. You can use it in different ways. The main thing is to use it for the good. And at present our clergy have not said that it is forbidden." The Associated Press contributed to this report. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 20:57:03 GMT From: dewberry@poboxes.com (Bee Brown) Subject: Re: BEE, sure?? Message-ID: <33e4d24d.43462179@mail.iconz.co.nz> On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:10:15 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >Bee writes: > >Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. >Life is not a problem to be solved; >it is a mystery to be lived. > >Keith: Some really feel that theosophy has solved the mystery or will. I had >someone tell me this at a Lodge meeting. Mysteries, by definition, come from >another dimension that the physcial. I side with the people that think we >have more to learn. I side with HPB that said the SD was only a nosegay of >collection of other's thought and more will be learned. > >Some obviously can't read > >Namste >Keith Bee writes: I hope the mystery is never solved otherwise what a boring future I have to look forward to. I think the mystery gets greater and more wonderful as humanity evolves to greater understanding of the cosmos. Just the tiny glimpses we have been shown from the wisdom sources, indicates that life becomes more intricate yet simpler as we ascend the 'ladder of spirituality'. Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. Life is not a problem to be solved; it is a mystery to be lived. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:50:30 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Aspartame Message-ID: <199708041249.IAA12904@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > Subject: Re: Aspartame > Date: Sunday, August 03, 1997 9:55 PM > > Glad to see your msg. > > I quit using all sugar substitutes including Aspartame after it affected > my eyesight and also later I realised it had put a lot of strain on my > eyes. I did not want to wait until I became a statistic to learn that > Aspartame is deadly. > Yes, if you're allergic to strawberries, it's best to stop eating them. Maybe I just got allergic to Aspartame. My husband got a big laugh out of this, because he couldn't understand why I was chugging 2 liter bottle of kiwi-strawberry diet-rite at one time. I personally can say there is an addictive factor here. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:57:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: In message <199708030313.XAA26558@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >Although animals, IMHO, do not have the consciousness of evolved >humans, they do sometimes show glimpses of something more. They do not, IMHO, have the consciousness of humans - "evolved" does not seem to be part of the equation. > >Recently, there was a news story about a cat who went into a burning >building 5 times, each times being burned, to rescue her kittens. > >On a more spectacular scale, a toddler visiting Brookfield Zoo in Chicago fell >into the Gorilla Pit. Injured and unconscious, it lay there for a while till >a female gorilla picked it up and carried it to the door where >the zookeeper comes out. She waited there till someone came out and took >the child from her. > >This made every newscast in Chicago, always with the question: How >could a gorilla have such compassion and common sense? One person >answered that she was just doing what she would have done for her >own child. My own perception of animal consciouness (insofar as I have been able to share it) is that the creatures (including birds) appear to have a "given" recognition of the connectedness of all life, and *unless they believe themselves to be under threat* behave as though compassion and common sense were the same thing. I talk to all the local life around here, including the humans occasionally. :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 08:36:00 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Some funnies Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804083600.0069d98c@pacbell.net> At 08:49 AM 8/2/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: (quoting me) >> >> Oh gawwwwwd!!!! That means that Pluto will be crossing my Descendent >> (opposing my Ascendant and hyleg) again!!!!!!! The last time it did that, I >> had a friggin' heart attack!!! Well, as they say, Pluto's effects are >> ..ahem... transformative and a heart attack turns your life around all of >> a sudden within a matter of hours. ;-D > >Yes, Pluto means a sort of death, but also regeneration. Also, transits do >not always manifest the same way. Last year, I had >transiting Pluto sq. natal Venus in the 8th house. I had my wedding rings >stolen out of my house. This year, the same transit rolled around and my >car was damaged enough to spend a week in the shop (much to the delight of >my body shop man). All involved transformation, loss, but replacement and >insurance, since the 8th house represents insurance. Take it easy. >You may be learning and reaping the benefits of the heart attack that >turned your life around last year. Hi Anne, Thanks so much for your reassurance! (BTW, Pluto opposed my hyleg this past March, which was when I had the heart attack.) I agree with all that you said about its effects, including everything that happened to you personally when it squared your 8th house Venus. (Aiiish!!) Plutonian contacts with the angles of a chart are truly upheaving, transformational experiences, IMHO, and I'm working to discern the inner meaning of all of this, beyond the obvious lifestyle changes that anyone who has a heart attack has to undergo. Life being full of surprises, I'm sure that the deeper transformative effects will be probably quite different than I could ever dream of. (Fortunately, whenever it hits that sensitive point in my chart in its oscillations over my Descendant, it's also trining my natal Mercury which happens to be conjunct my natal Pluto, triggering that aspect as well.) ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 10:18:16 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804101816.0069d98c@pacbell.net> At 11:32 AM 8/2/97 -0400, Jerry wrote: >Lynn, glad to hear you are fascinated. And I like what you say. It's always great to meet a kindred spirit!! >"Sickly sweet" ethics do not necessarily include "astrally-based" or >misguided, or wrong, or lower, or any other perjorative term. Rather, it >is >the over-emphasis of ethics, and the annoying underlying notion that if we >all got ethical, we would be Adepts. I'm glad you defined this and I agree. The notion of ethics leading to adepthood is, IMHO, yet another example of the human tendency to a) latch onto the "outer" at the exclusion of the inner; and b) to take the easy way out. I think there is an aspect of the Law of Correspondences at work here, this time the correspondence is to the physical Law of Inertia. In this case, we're seeing the tendency of the matter of the lower quatenary to remain at rest and to respond very slowly to stimulation from the higher triad. >Most Christians are ethical, and >Chrisitanity (as well as all other religions) emphasize ethics to the >breaking >point--their teaching is that if we go to church, and are ethical, we will >go to >heaven when we die. Indeed. If it weren't yet still a bit early in the morning for me, I could probably find New Testament references where Christ himself addressed this issue. His remark about "whitened sepulchres" comes to mind. ;-D >This misguided reasoning is also found in Hinduism >and in Theosophy where the idea is that if we are "good theosophists" and >are ethical, we will have good karma, and have a better life next time >around, >and be well on the path of chelaship. This is well-intended, but >misguided. Agreed. This, IMHO, is a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of chelaship and ignorance of the principle of acting "without hope". Actually, the concept of "astrally-based" does enter here because all of this is caught up in an element of "desire" which continues to bind the aspirant to the earliest stages of development and the wheel of rebirth. (BTW, I'm not saying that there isn't karma generated on the lower manasic level, too. :-D) I don't mean "astrally-based" necessarily as a pejorative, but simply as where the energy is mistakenly polarized with lower manas thrown in. It is also astral, IMHO, in that the misguided focus on "ethics *first*" is part of the astral glamor that obscures and confuses so much of this. But we are in total agreement on the error involved in placing ethics first. > >I agree with you that we have a downward flow in the order of Love-> >Compassion->Ethics. HPB, Judge, and many others suggest that by >forcing ethics, we will be able to rise to compassion, and then to love as >you have defined it. I would suggest that it just doesn't work that way. >Tibetan Buddhism, for example, has techniques with which we can >develop compassion. It's been years since I've read my books on Tibetan Buddhism and your remarks have inspired me to re-read them. :-) IMHO, to obtain the downward energy flow that we agree must occur, the aspirant must work to align the lower quaternary of the personality with the upper triad or Soul (the source of Love) through meditation, refinement of the lower vehicles, and service so that the personality eventually becomes a perfect vehicle for the expression of the Soul. >They emphasize ethics, but never imply that >morality is an end-all in itself. Most occult schools distaste the sickly- >sweet theosophical emphasis on ethics because ethics should come >naturally, and not be forced. When you suggest to a Seeker of Truth >that s/he should begin by developing ethics, and a strong sense of >right and wrong, then that person feels forced to construct and follow >a set of ethical behaviors, and misses the forest for the trees. Rather, >we should develop compassion, and let ethics take care of itself. Very well said!!! In addition to time wasted by constructing a set of ethical behaviors without the foundation of compassion, this activity can lead to very untheosophical behavior, IMHO. Without developing compassion first, the ethical superstructure created is likely to conflict with another's ethical construct and thus the wars we see in theosophy and in the world at large. > >What you say above, is exactly what I have been saying on theos-l >since its inception--that we need to work on universal love and compassion >and let ethics develop naturally all by itself. If we care for another >person, >chances are high that we will act ethcially with that person, without >thought of reward, and without thought for whether we are right or wrong. This is a message that cannot be repeated too often!!! You have, FWIW, my wholehearted support in this! Theosophy is a meaningless, empty shell, a souless entity without universal love and compassion. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 08:18:17 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Smoking Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804081817.0069d98c@pacbell.net> At 09:11 PM 8/1/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >> >> In message <3.0.2.32.19970731133941.006a33e0@pacbell.net>, >> techndex@pacbell.net writes >> >Folks can't be >> >satisfied with just pointing out the dangers of smoking and let people make >> >their own decisions nor even stop at banning smoking in public. Nooooo. >> >They have to try to FORCE everyone to quit, even in the privacy of their >> >own homes where the issue of second-hand smoke is irrelevant. >> >I was asthmatic as a child and allergic to cigarette smoke. My mother, who >smoked, always smoked in another room of the house, the porch, where >the smoke would dissipate out the window. She even put on a coat in winter >and smoked out there. My father smoked cigars, but only outdoors. >If 2nd hand smoke is irrelevant, then they were clueless to that that notion. Hi Anne, You're right. I should not have said "irrelevant". In fact, I myself shouldn't be exposed to second-hand smoke because I have heart disease. (And I live with three smokers.) The real point that I was trying so poorly to make that, in ones own home, it should be a decision made by those affected and involved, not by other individuals, including governments. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 10:52:23 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Animal Souls Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804105223.0069d98c@pacbell.net> At 06:03 PM 8/2/97 -0400, Tom wrote: >I have always liked Leadbeater's analogy of a pail of water being the >group soul, and each animal being analogous to taking part of the >water that is in the pail and temporarily being put into a separate >container, so that it acquires its own unique qualities (which are >apparent even in insects), but then, when its life is over, it goes >back into the group soul and mixes its qualities with the group soul, >just as the water that was in the individual container gets put back >into the pail, mixing its qualities with that of all the other water. >I don't know how else, but by postulating a group soul, to explain >such events as many birds acting simultaneously. I agree with you all the way up to your last sentence. ;-D If you're discussing simultaneous movements in a flying flock of birds, I've seen explanations (some of them rather involved) boiling down to individual birds following the movements of their neighbors--all physical-plane based. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:13:13 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804111313.0069d98c@pacbell.net> At 11:55 AM 8/3/97 -0400, Keith wrote: > >> >>Ah, another astrologer on the list! Welcome! >> >> >>A. Safron > >Hugs!! {{{{{{Anne}}}}}}}} :-D > >Lynn > >Keith: Astrologers UNITE, if the theosophists won't :) Astrology has its >mathetics, but it is very open to interpretation as is theosophy, if the truth >were told! IMHO Well, then I gotta include you, too, in the "astrologers' hug". {{{{Keith}}}}} ;-D I agree with you about astrology having a mathematical and an interpretive component. The mathematics can be easily done on the computer. I see astrology as a tool (among others) for elucidating some of the truths of theosophy. A few days ago, someone posted something quite elegant here about cycles, which astrology is based on. (I'm sorry I forgot who it was, but whoever you were, I really liked it!) I also like to think of Logos (whichever flavor gives you the most mileage) as Geometer and Mathematician, and astrology is one of the expressions of this. Someone also alluded to a logoic or divine nature of fractals here. I propose adding astrology to The Tree of Life as having an inherently fractal nature. > >Jupiter goes direct October 9th, I found my emphemeris. Maybe things will >lighten up around them. Jupiter will inspire higher learning and >philisophical pursuits. I hope I can make it :) I'm hoping along with you, Keith. (BTW, you must be using a noon ephemeris, since my midnight ephemeris gives Oct. 8th as the date that Jupiter goes direct. No quibble, just technotrivia. ;-D) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:44:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Tid-Bit on Karma Message-ID: <970804134300_-1205454666@emout10.mail.aol.com> "No good deed goes unpunished." Claire Booth Luce Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:17:52 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804111752.0069d98c@pacbell.net> At 03:07 PM 8/3/97 -0400, Jerry wrote: > >Sentimentality is exactly what I meant by "sickly sweet ethics." >In the Crowleyian sense, its love without will. Love without being >directed by will tends to mire down in sentiment and mushy >goody-goodyness that sounds nice but goes nowhere. But will >without love has its own set of problems, which I find in all too >many occult and magical organizations. The two should go >together. Not only is will without love the cause of a lot of problems but it can lead directly to the left-hand path. But you probably were implying this as well. :-) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 08:19:21 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Bast Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804081921.0069d98c@pacbell.net> At 09:46 PM 8/1/97 -0400, Titus wrote: >Another little known fact. Humans appear to get more inspiration from cats >than is realized. "The Raven" was actually partly plagiarized from a work >by Poe's cat: > >The End of the Raven > -- by Edgar Allen Poe's Cat ROFL!!!!!!!!!!! You have talent!! :-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:31:48 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804113148.0069d98c@pacbell.net> At 12:58 PM 8/2/97 -0400, Titus wrote in response to Jerry: >Love, compassion, ethics all require both inner and outer work. Ethics >require a conscience (the inner state) and a will to follow them (the outer >fulfillment). To develop love you need to both make the obvious gestures of >love and cultivate the inner state. Actions, thoughts and emotions all play >off one another. I agree that this is a multi-faceted process that requires work on all levels. And, I hope that no misinterprets what I said in my responses to Jerry to mean that one should just sit and wait for some cosmic blast of love before attempting to express that quality outwardly. ;-D Your statement about "actions, thoughts and emotions playing off one another" addresses the interplay of energies involved in bringing about the alignment of vehicles I mentioned in my message to Jerry and service is the outward expression. It's a sort of ongoing feedback loop in that, as one attempts to express and cultivate the quality of love/compassion, this in turn refines the matter of the vehicles, enabling an even higher expression of these qualities, enabling even greater service. An ongoing upward spiral, so to speak. However, I still believe that an attempt to "first" create an ethical system is useless and pharasaic unless it is motivated by love and compassion. But, I don't think we're in actual disagreement here because you mentioned "conscience". As long as that conscience is informed by the principles of love and compassion, a right system of ethics will be expressed. And that brings in the inner work that you described. > >> When you suggest to a Seeker of Truth that s/he should begin by developing >> ethics, and a strong sense of right and wrong, then that person feels forced >> to construct and follow a set of ethical behaviors, and misses the forest >> for the trees. Rather, we should develop compassion, and let ethics take >> care of itself. > >Ethics and compassion play off one another. One cannot develop without the >other. People who try for compassion *alone* end up in an enantiodromia, >meeting its very opposite: sentimentality. I'm truly sorry for my ignorance, but could you please define "enantiodromia"? I looked it up in my dictionary, but it contained only the connecting form "enantio-" and entries for words containing this prefix that are specific to chemistry. I think I do understand what you mean and agree with you, with sentimentality as a do-nothing state based on pure emotion. > Ethics are the bones, compassion is the flesh. Hmmm. I think this analogy works well if we're thinking of creature with an exoskeleton. :-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:37:23 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Qabala vs Theosophy Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804113723.006f6eac@pacbell.net> At 03:59 PM 8/3/97 -0400, Jerry wrote: > >I respect your opinion. She was a lot more versed in Kabbalah >than I am (I am reasonably versed in Qabala, but know very little >of Kabbalah--I leave that to Alan). Yiiiikes!!!! I thought that the only difference between Qabala and Kabbalah (or Kabalah or Kabbala) were in transliteration of a Hebrew term and that the differences with regard to a subset of beliefs under an overarching term kabalism (or however its spelled). Boy, do I have a lot to learn!!! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:42:35 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970804114235.0069e1c0@pacbell.net> At 08:27 PM 8/3/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote to Keith: > >I'm ignorant of Jupiter retros. If anyone on this list can enlighten me, I'll >be very grateful. Anne, I'm better (a bit) at retros when it comes to interpreting their significance in a natal chart rather than by transit. (I even have one myself. ;-D) If you'd like to hear an overview of what it means in a natal chart from a karmic standpoint, let me know. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:18:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Keith: Astrologers UNITE, if the theosophists won't :) Astrology has its >mathetics, but it is very open to interpretation as is theosophy, if the truth >were told! IMHO It can be shown, after a fashion, that Astrology is the oldest theosophy of all. Somwhere I have a diagram that does this (in Kabbalist terms - surprise!). If I can find it I will scan and upload it. Alan, b,. Romford, Essex, UK, 22 April 1933. Sun Taurus, Moon Aries, late Capricorn rising, with Saturn rising in Aquarius 15. (Just showing off) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 97 20:51:32 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Just a little more astrolocy Message-ID: I this is not astro-l,but I think that HPB considered astrology to be part of the ancient wisdom for sure. Astrology is again one of those fractal systems that constantly grows through time and manifests cycles within cycles. Lynn writes: Plutonian contacts with the angles of a chart are truly upheaving, transformational experiences, IMHO, and I'm working to discern the inner meaning of all of this, beyond the obvious lifestyle changes that anyone who has a heart attack has to undergo. Life being full of surprises, I'm sure that the deeper transformative effects will be probably quite different than I could ever dream of. (Fortunately, whenever it hits that sensitive point in my chart in its oscillations over my Descendant, it's also trining my natal Mercury which happens to be conjunct my natal Pluto, triggering that aspect as well.) ;-D Lynn I have Pluto conjunct my natal Mercury and both are conjuct the MC and the south node. I wonder how pluto conjunct Mercury has worked for you. For me it gives me a great understanding of other dimensions including the "underworld" of the unconscious and the psychological means to deal with the past. On the negative side, it tends to instill my communications with a certain rawness and darkness. Also as transits my first house, I am forced to give up first one thing and then another. I even had a major accident when it transiting Pluto conjuncted my natal Mars. Ah, well, we could go on and on with the symbol system, but it DOES work doesn't it? Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 19:39:36 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Kabbalah, Theosophy, etc... Message-ID: <33E66838.555C@dmv.com> "Jerry Schueler" wrote: > Subject: Qabala vs Theosophy > > I respect your opinion. She was a lot more versed in Kabbalah > than I am (I am reasonably versed in Qabala, but know very little > of Kabbalah--I leave that to Alan). It is doubtful that HPB was more knowledgeable about Kabbalah than either you or Alan in my oppinion. As for myself I am slowly collecting the traditional view of Kabbalah, and my take on the subject is necessarily non traditional. > I am uncertain what you mean by Hinduistic pantheism. I don't > see much difference between the Cosmocrators or Manus of HPB > and the Angels or Archangels of the Kabbalah. That may well be, although, there is the theosophical animistic doctrine which proports all motion as life; having intellegence and spirit which together with the doctrine that all is spiritually evolving toward divinity make a very pervasive case for pantheism. > >Kabbalah is a model of theosophy which would be ultimate reality. Models > >are excellent tools for exploration of systematic knowledge, and in this > >case the model has magical properties and purposes. > > Here we have a point of difference. I see theosophy (little t) as the > pursuit of ultimate reality, but not ultimate reality itself. I agree with your position, having meant to say that Kabbalah is a model and a tool that makes for a systematic exploration of reality which is ultimately magickal; modifiable. > The fact that the Kabbalah and Qabala have magical properties is > the very reason why most good theosophists shun them. Like you, > I enjoy the magic, and in fact have dubbed the entire inner 5 planes > the Magical Universe to emphasize the point. > > >The discovery that the "Tree of Life" is a fractal geometry makes less > >likely the assertion that the Tree or even the Decalogue are human > >inventions, although, it does not eliminate that possibility. > > The entire Magical Universe is fractal. Life is fractal. Earth is > fractal. These "fractals" are each things that we did not create, man has not created the Magical Universe, life or the Earth. Fractals are specific formulations; infinitely repeating self similar patterns. What specific "fractals" are you referring to? > It is my personal opinion that the Tree of Life is, indeed, > a human invention. This is a difficult point. It is possible that the Tree of Life is an invention I will grant you that, but the truth of the matter may be the same as the case with mathematics. For instance, mathematics has been developed to describe the geometry of the Platonic Solids, but that does not mean that these solids are the invention of mathematicians as was thought by some until recent times when the last elements of the complete set were discovered in natural crystals. This in a round about way supports the Platonic notion of forms, lending creedence to the idea that we discover mathematical concepts, describe them in a languge that we have invented, and don't invent the concepts themselves. In the case of the Tree of Life the implications are a bit convoluted. The Tree has always described Kabbalistic theosophy, but here I have found a fractal that describes the Tree itself. The questions that remain are, does this fractal still describe the theosophy, and what, considering that Platonic forms have 'always' existed, does this say about the origin of the Tree and the Decalogue which is one of its features. Traditionally the Tree and the Decalogue were given to man by G-d, and having a geometric 'version' of the Tree, IMHO, may very well support that history. > >Ethics stem from self knowledge. Western tradition recommends > >that one seek self knowledge in order to love completely. > > This is a different slant on the picture, but I can't disagree with you. > The thing is, when we finally come to grips with our "self" we will > learn that we are not so different from others. Do unto others as > you would have them do unto you is still probably the only real > ethical law we need. We are here in partial agreemeent, to say that we need only one ethical law may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. The Golden Rule is really a rule of thumb applied to rules of thumb. > Subject: Re: Magick > Yes humans have self-consciousness more than animals (who DO > have some, contrary to what a lot of experts think). But what does > this have to do with ethics? > > I can't see any "parts of the soul that ethics preserve." Maybe we > differ about the word ethics itself? > >If we look deeply into the origin > >of ethics we find the "relationships among the parts of the soul" that > >ethics preserve. The key word is relationships. Kabbalisticly the soul has five parts, which I have 'interpreted' as Heart, Spiritual-Soul, Mind, Strength, and Senses. Some claim that the Ein Soph is among the five parts, and if the Ein Soph is truly part of the soul, there would be six parts, IMHO. A simple case of relationship is the functional relationship between your Senses and your Mind which implies the need to truthfully describe your experience; Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. etc... > Actually most "soul components" do not produce much harmony. The parts of the soul are meant to function together harmoniously. The source of harmony is transcendental. > Not with most people. And one of the problems is the conscience. Pain in the conscience is a high level form of negative feedback which is what you are addressing as a problem, although, conscience can also promote positive behaviors which provide the pleasure of self realization, IMHO. > In Jungian psychology, this equates to the Shadow archetype, which > will only allow harmony when it is in balance with the Persona. > Jung taught that the problem with ethics and morals was the very > first step in the individuation process that we have to settle. The > entire dualistic battle between right and wrong, good and evil, must > be resolved within each psyche in order to proceed with individuation. > > I haven't a clue what you mean by forbidden knowledges and actions. The 'Thou shalt nots' especially the prohibition of covetousness which forbids 'evil thoughts' so to speak. > Do you mean repression? No. Repression is a state of difficulty that is the result of surpressing ill feelings or actions repeatedly over a long period; according to Freud. Following an ethical code should make one relatively free of 'guilt', I would think. > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Magickal Response to Vincent > > >This is a case where I find that Kabbalah provides valuable insight. > >Many or most think of the mind in terms of logic or Binah consciousness. > > Whoa!! Binah is above the Abyss, and is vastly superior to logic and > reason, which I would put at the Hod level. Binah is Understanding, > an intuitive function. > My remark represents a misinterpretation of what I have read concerning Kabbalah, although, I have been told that the Tree is open to interpretation, and my view of the abyss greatly departs from tradition. However, for me Binah simply represents particles such as atoms in Fire or words in language, and it also represents the Fire itself or languages such as logic would be. Hod would be associated with the faculty of memory or honor, and all things virtual Air, spirit etc.. PBWY Vincent > ------------------------------ -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:24:45 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Chicago LIberal Catholic Church purchases new building Message-ID: <199708051322.JAA01080@marconi.concentric.net> The Liberal Catholic Church of St.Francis is pleased to announced that at 10 am Tuesday, July 8th, we signed the papers for the purchase of a church building in Villa Park, hear Ardmore and School St.. It was originaly built as an Episcopalian church during 1945-1950. Since thta time it has been used as Bible Church and the latest, Free Christian Assemblies. The church will hold between 70-85 people. There is a parsonage attached to the church building with a driveway. The lot is 100 x 187 ft. Target date for the consecration will be the 5th of October, the feast of St. Francis. Remodelling of the interior of the church is just starting. The church pews that were there were brand new but with no kneelers, and in appropriate for our church and will be sold. The old oak St. Francis pews, which are in storage and were originally bought by Dr. Henry Smith, will have to be re-sized, for the church dimensions are much smaller than the Mozart church. There is a small choir loft to house an organ/jeyboard. It is an 88 keys Alesis keyboard w/speaker. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 18:00:24 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <199708050100.SAA10103@palrel3.hp.com> Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) wrote: > However, I still believe that an attempt to "first" create an ethical > system is useless and pharasaic unless it is motivated by love and > compassion. But, I don't think we're in actual disagreement here because > you mentioned "conscience". As long as that conscience is informed by the > principles of love and compassion, a right system of ethics will be > expressed. And that brings in the inner work that you described. We probably more or less agree. I'll admit to being a little confused about how HPB's words are being interpreted in the discussion which has ensued. Your comments bring us back to the original topic - always a good thing to revisit when we get off into tangential and increasingly abstract subjects. HPB said, approximately, that we need a clean life and a pure heart. I find no fault in that. Ethics go together with compassion. Compassion without ethics is no compassion and ethics without compassion are no ethics. Yet, they are a distinct yin-yang pair and both need to be cultivated in their own way. I'll give a concrete example of each case. Fine print: this is drawn from people within my experience and no similarity is implied to anyone on this list! Some parents I've known say they love their children. Yet they don't discipline them at all. Closer examination showed that they were using their children for their own needs and they were afraid "lose" them if they did't give them their every want. Is that love a complete love? At the other extreme, some parents were very controlling and harsh. Ostensably, they had high ethical standards, but in reality they were merely vicariously making up for their own lack of ethic. Are those real ethics? >> Ethics and compassion play off one another. One cannot develop without the >> other. People who try for compassion *alone* end up in an enantiodromia, >> meeting its very opposite: sentimentality. > I'm truly sorry for my ignorance, but could you please define > "enantiodromia"? I looked it up in my dictionary, but it contained only the > connecting form "enantio-" and entries for words containing this prefix > that are specific to chemistry. I think I do understand what you mean and > agree with you, with sentimentality as a do-nothing state based on pure > emotion. As I recall, Heraclitus used it first. In the sense that I used it (plagiarized from Jung) it means a reversal of dominants. When one polarity of a truth is emphasized at too great a cost of the opposite, the opposite comes in with a vengeance. In this case compassion without careful attention to ethics becomes the opposite of compassion. Likewise ethics without a cultivated compassion become unethical behavior. >> Ethics are the bones, compassion is the flesh. > Hmmm. I think this analogy works well if we're thinking of creature with an > exoskeleton. :-D Let's just hope it doesn't become an ex-skeleton. ;) Since you're interested in astrology, I had the following in mind when I said that: I associate ethics with Capricorn, ruler of the bones; and I associate emotional sensitivity with Cancer (opposite of Capricorn), ruler of the stomach and breasts - kind of soft fleshy things. - Titus From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:34:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Kabbalah, Theosophy, etc... Message-ID: <2tX7gJACNo5zEwY+@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33E66838.555C@dmv.com>, Vincent Beall writes >It is possible that the Tree of Life is an >invention I will grant you that, but the truth of the matter may be the >same as the case with mathematics. For instance, mathematics has been >developed to describe the geometry of the Platonic Solids, but that does >not mean that these solids are the invention of mathematicians as was >thought by some until recent times when the last elements of the >complete set were discovered in natural crystals. This in a round about >way supports the Platonic notion of forms, lending creedence to the idea >that we discover mathematical concepts, describe them in a languge that >we have invented, and don't invent the concepts themselves. I see the Kabbalist Tree (or Ladder) as a human representation of truths *discovered* by humans. The representation may be ours, but the truths are there whether we discover them or not. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:46:11 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Astrological Message-ID: In message <199708050100.SAA10103@palrel3.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >Since you're interested in astrology, I had the following in mind when I said >that: I associate ethics with Capricorn, ruler of the bones; and I associate >emotional sensitivity with Cancer (opposite of Capricorn), ruler of the >stomach and breasts - kind of soft fleshy things. Hmmm. Food for thought. I would perhaps associate ethics with the air signs, and emotional sensitivity with the water signs, as a rough guide. Venus can be very emotional, too. I have Sun combust Venus, so I should know .... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:40:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: In message <3.0.2.32.19970804101816.0069d98c@pacbell.net>, techndex@pacbell.net writes >Theosophy is a meaningless, empty shell, a >souless entity without universal love and compassion. Sometimes its adherents are so busy being universal that they seem to behave as though expressing *local* love and compassion is not necessary. Loving God is easy - one's neighbor can be far more difficult! > >Lynn > Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:47:40 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970804013549.00c8f8cc@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >There used to be a very famous member of TS who was also a famous >astrologer. I think he was Alan Leo and he wrote several articles in the >Theosophist in the 20s and 30s. He wrote a number of large tomes! I still have one of them, and cut my astrological teeth on them. It was his work in fact that led me first to theosophy and then Kabbalah. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 21:06:39 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970805020639.00d9e068@mail.eden.com> At 10:03 PM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970804013549.00c8f8cc@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss > writes >>There used to be a very famous member of TS who was also a famous >>astrologer. I think he was Alan Leo and he wrote several articles in the >>Theosophist in the 20s and 30s. > >He wrote a number of large tomes! I still have one of them, and cut my >astrological teeth on them. It was his work in fact that led me first >to theosophy and then Kabbalah. > >Alan >--------- What an interesting way you got introduced to Theosophy. I think Leo's wife was also a well known astrologer. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:20:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Qabala vs Theosophy Message-ID: In message <3.0.2.32.19970804113723.006f6eac@pacbell.net>, techndex@pacbell.net writes >Yiiiikes!!!! I thought that the only difference between Qabala and Kabbalah >(or Kabalah or Kabbala) were in transliteration of a Hebrew term and that >the differences with regard to a subset of beliefs under an overarching >term kabalism (or however its spelled). Boy, do I have a lot to learn!!! The general convention is that Qabala deals with the "magic(k)al" stuff, whereas Kabbalah deals with the mystical stuff. Qabalists are likely to don strange garb and wiggle swords about and things like that, often in a hierarchical structure. Kabbalists are likely to go it alone and reach (each in an individual way) for their own "stars. Some of the Qabalists are ego-tripping nuts, IMO. I do not count Jerry in this category. :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 02:14:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: In message <3.0.2.32.19970804111313.0069d98c@pacbell.net>, techndex@pacbell.net writes >No quibble, just technotrivia. ;-D) > >Lynn And where would we be without it! Doomed ... dooomed. Alan :-| From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:00:54 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199708051322.JAA01074@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version > Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 9:07 PM > > At 08:55 PM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote: > >In message <2.2.32.19970801024341.00b92ecc@mail.eden.com>, > >ramadoss@eden.com writes > >>The Frenchmen thru their followers(representatives) sued the Colorado > >>Corporation to take control of the properties situated in the USA and this > >>is now under litigation at Denver. Many from Wheaton are in the French camp. > >>Many members of TSA are in the other camp which decided not to let any > >>foreign outfit control US property and affairs. > >> > >>This is some of the *real* story, not the *moderated* ones you may have heard. > > > >Co-masonry includes women and in some lodges is likely to contain more > >women than men, so perhaps you should amend "Frenchmen" simply to > >"French" - unless you know that the litigants are exclusively male? > > This is the Larkspur URL: http://www.sni.net/~cumsille/ When I contacted them, they sent me a very nice magazine that Gerda promptly confiscated after I'd read it. Apparently, they have have no Lodges in Chicago, but travel to Detroit to have Lodge meetings. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 08:58:14 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970805135814.00efdeb4@mail.eden.com> At 09:22 AM 8/5/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version >> Date: Friday, August 01, 1997 9:07 PM >> >> At 08:55 PM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >In message <2.2.32.19970801024341.00b92ecc@mail.eden.com>, >> >ramadoss@eden.com writes >> >>The Frenchmen thru their followers(representatives) sued the Colorado >> >>Corporation to take control of the properties situated in the USA and this >> >>is now under litigation at Denver. Many from Wheaton are in the French camp. >> >>Many members of TSA are in the other camp which decided not to let any >> >>foreign outfit control US property and affairs. >> >> >> >>This is some of the *real* story, not the *moderated* ones you may have heard. >> > >> >Co-masonry includes women and in some lodges is likely to contain more >> >women than men, so perhaps you should amend "Frenchmen" simply to >> >"French" - unless you know that the litigants are exclusively male? >> > >This is the Larkspur URL: > >http://www.sni.net/~cumsille/ > >When I contacted them, they sent me a very nice magazine that Gerda >promptly confiscated after I'd read it. Apparently, they have have no >Lodges in Chicago, but travel to Detroit to have Lodge meetings. > >A. Safron Very very interesting. I wonder what made Gerda do what she did. At this time, the only lodge that I know of in Chicago area is the one controlled by Frenchmen(with a sprinkling of Frenchwomen) and it is in Wheaton. The Larkspur based American "Co" Masonry is the one which is composed of the majority of the American Members of the formerly working with the French and now is totally independent of any foreign control, in the fine American tradition of self-rule and self-reliant. It is the French controlled group which is the plaintiff in the Denver case against the American group. Nothing should surprise anyone because there are people associated with Wheaton with a lot of litigation experience. Even in the masculine masonry, each state has its own setup which does not take orders from anyone outside of it. Thanks for the URL. .............Ramadoss PS: May be when you visit Detroit or another location where there is a lodge, you can arrange to get admitted if you are interested. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 11:36:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TSA e-mail address changed? Message-ID: <33E7568C.585A@eden.com> Hi TSA's e-mail address in all the publications is theos@netcom.com. When I visited their webpage, I saw the following address: Click here to send e-mail to olcott@concentric.net Wondering if there is a new address for e-mail. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 11:46:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: What practices do Theosophists follow? Message-ID: <33E758D0.1B3F@eden.com> Hi, here is something from the TSA URL: ----------------------------- What practices do Theosophists follow? All members of the Theosophical Society decide what practices and manner of living are appropriate for them, but many Theosophists follow a certain regimen of life that is implied by Theosophical ideas like those above. They meditate regularly, both to gain insight into themselves and as a service to humanity. They are vegetarians and avoid the use of furs or skins for which animals are killed. They do not use alcohol or drugs (except under a doctor's order). They support the rights of all human beings for fair and just treatment, being therefore supporters of women's and minority rights. They respect differences of culture and support intellectual freedom. Theosophists are not asked to accept any opinion or adopt any practice that does not appeal to their inner sense of reason and morality. -------------------------------- Any comments? .................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 08:27:10 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Just a little more astrolocy Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805082710.00694340@pacbell.net> At 04:57 PM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >I this is not astro-l,but I think that HPB considered astrology to be part of >the ancient wisdom for sure. Hi Keith, I think it's appropriate to discuss astrology here for that very reason, as long as we don't consume the list with it. (Astrologers seem to tend to be very gabby. The astrology lists and newsgroups can easily overwhelm one with the volume of posts. ;-D) >Astrology is again one of those fractal systems >that constantly grows through time and manifests cycles within cycles. That is exactly what I was trying to say. But my mind was racing so fast (mania) that all I could do was type out partial snippets of it. Thanks for expanding it into coherency. :-) > >Lynn writes: >Plutonian contacts with the angles of a chart are truly upheaving, >transformational experiences, IMHO, and I'm working to discern the inner >meaning of all of this, beyond the obvious lifestyle changes that anyone >who has a heart attack has to undergo. Life being full of surprises, I'm >sure that the deeper transformative effects will be probably quite >different than I could ever dream of. (Fortunately, whenever it hits that >sensitive point in my chart in its oscillations over my Descendant, it's >also trining my natal Mercury which happens to be conjunct my natal Pluto, >triggering that aspect as well.) ;-D > >Lynn > >I have Pluto conjunct my natal Mercury and both are conjuct the MC and the >south node. I wonder how pluto conjunct Mercury has worked for you. For me >it gives me a great understanding of other dimensions including the >"underworld" of the unconscious and the psychological means to deal with the >past. On the negative side, it tends to instill my communications with a >certain rawness and darkness. Fascinating how your Mercury/Pluto conjunction is conjunct your MC. Mine is conjunct the IC, putting it at the very "root" of my personal mandala so to speak. (And Mercury, ruler of my chart, is conjunct the Sun, the ultimate dispositor in Leo.) Yes, my Mercury/Pluto conjunction works out verrrrry similar to yours. With Pluto adding will-energy to the mental energy of Mercury, it takes the mind into hyperfocus enabling it to penetrate into the "underworld". In both the mundane and the spiritual, it gives an obsession (Pluto) with getting to the bottom of things--anything. It's quite similar to the Scorpionic mind, but without the emotional cast. It's very useful, IMHO, in meditation, not the transcendental type, but the Raja Yoga type where the mind concentrates on one thought. (In fact, I almost accidently killed myself once while meditating, messing around with energy in a way that I shouldn't have been. My yoga teacher had a fit when I told him. Definitely, a Mercury-Pluto kind of thing. Just a warning of what your Plutonian mind can do.) And in its lower manifestation, I can be downright raw, gross, morbid, obsessed with death, extremist (my mother's favorite characterization of me), etc. ;-D > >Also as transits my first house, I am forced to give up first one thing and >then another. I even had a major accident when it transiting Pluto conjuncted >my natal Mars. You are going through a major, agonizing transformative process!!! That's an extremely difficult transit, one that the vast majority of folks aren't forced to undergo. And I thought its excursion through my 7th house is bad enough. {{{Keith}}} Hmmm. Our charts must be mirror images, at least with respect to the angles. I'm not at all surprised about your accident when Pluto conjuncted your natal Mars. (Was there a bit of recklessness or willfulness there contributing to the accident? I'm asking purely out of scientific curiosity.) BTW, with your strong interest in astrology, I would suspect that you have a prominent Uranus. It's my rising planet and rules my MC. > >Ah, well, we could go on and on with the symbol system, but it DOES work >doesn't it? Indeed! I tell skeptics that I don't know how it works, but empirically it does. :-) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 09:22:44 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805092244.00694340@pacbell.net> At 09:01 PM 8/4/97 -0400, Titus wrote: >I'll admit to being a little confused about how HPB's words are being >interpreted in the discussion which has ensued. Your comments bring us back >to the original topic - always a good thing to revisit when we get off into >tangential and increasingly abstract subjects. HPB said, approximately, that >we need a clean life and a pure heart. I find no fault in that. Ethics go >together with compassion. Compassion without ethics is no compassion and >ethics without compassion are no ethics. Yet, they are a distinct yin-yang >pair and both need to be cultivated in their own way. I fully agree with you. As for how we may have gone off on a tangent regarding HPB's remarks... Could it be that HPB was speaking to two audiences at once? That there were layers of meaning to what she said? Let's take the concept of a "clean life". This is a standard Christian-type admonition. However, to aspirants and chelas, it could have a deeper, occult meaning in terms of refining the vehicles by living a life that ejects coarser matter from them. IMHO, this would include constant vigilence over the mind and emotions so that lower manas and kamas would be of a vibratory rate that would be responsive to stimulation by higher energies. A "pure heart", hmmm. Something to do with the heart chakra, maybe? I have to think about that more. Or she could have been saying just what she said without blinds and hints. ;-D > >I'll give a concrete example of each case. Fine print: this is drawn from >people within my experience and no similarity is implied to anyone on this >list! Some parents I've known say they love their children. Yet they don't >discipline them at all. Closer examination showed that they were using their >children for their own needs and they were afraid "lose" them if they did't >give them their every want. Is that love a complete love? No, it's not pure love. It's a selfish "love" where the ultimate object of ones apparently "loving" behavior is the self. > At the other >extreme, some parents were very controlling and harsh. Ostensably, they had >high ethical standards, but in reality they were merely vicariously making up >for their own lack of ethic. Are those real ethics? Not at all. In addition to the reason you gave, the parents could also be following the "ethical" system imposed upon themselves as children. The failure here is that the so-called ethical system is not motivated by compassion nor by insights arrived at via the parents' own spiritual journeys, but soley as an unthinking adoption of societal mores. Again, selfish goals are the motivation ("what would the neighbors think if...") >As I recall, Heraclitus used it first. In the sense that I used it >(plagiarized from Jung) it means a reversal of dominants. When one polarity >of a truth is emphasized at too great a cost of the opposite, the opposite >comes in with a vengeance. In this case compassion without careful attention >to ethics becomes the opposite of compassion. Likewise ethics without a >cultivated compassion become unethical behavior. Thanks for the explanation! All of this rings very true. IMHO, it is an effect of the duality of maya where the principle comprising the polarity is not understood, nor expressed. > >Since you're interested in astrology, I had the following in mind when I said >that: I associate ethics with Capricorn, ruler of the bones; and I associate >emotional sensitivity with Cancer (opposite of Capricorn), ruler of the >stomach and breasts - kind of soft fleshy things. Fascinating! I like where you went with that! Actually, I think it's also a correlation to the energies of the planetary rulers of these signs, Saturn (crystallization, concretization) and the Moon (fluidity, changeability, empathy). So, we can consider ethics as a concretization (Saturn) of compassion (lunar empathy or feeling *with*). We have a dynamic polar axis here between the Moon and Saturn, but we haven't gone far enough. So I think that Neptune, the Moon's higher octave, is involved in this, too. Neptune represents transcendance of the boundaries (symbolized in Saturn's rings and shattered by Uranus). If these boundaries can be said to be those between the self-not/self, the dissolving action of Neptune represents transcendental Love based on the realization that all is one. The key is eventually getting past Saturn's rings. ;-D Thank you for this morning's "meditation". Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 10:01:25 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Qabala vs Theosophy Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805100125.00694340@pacbell.net> At 10:19 PM 8/4/97 -0400, Alan wrote: >In message <3.0.2.32.19970804113723.006f6eac@pacbell.net>, >techndex@pacbell.net writes >>Yiiiikes!!!! I thought that the only difference between Qabala and Kabbalah >>(or Kabalah or Kabbala) were in transliteration of a Hebrew term and that >>the differences with regard to a subset of beliefs under an overarching >>term kabalism (or however its spelled). Boy, do I have a lot to learn!!! > >The general convention is that Qabala deals with the "magic(k)al" stuff, >whereas Kabbalah deals with the mystical stuff. Qabalists are likely to >don strange garb and wiggle swords about and things like that, often in >a hierarchical structure. Kabbalists are likely to go it alone and >reach (each in an individual way) for their own "stars. Fascinating!!! Thanks for the explanation. The underlying concept of magic("k") intrigues me in the Qabala, but loner that I am, I'd probably lean to the Kabbalah. (A synthesis of the two would be verrrry interesting, IMHO.) The Tree of Life has intrigued me ever since the day I first saw it in the tarot. One of these days, BTW, I'll return to your Web site and read your "Keys to Kabbalah". Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 09:53:37 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805095337.00694340@pacbell.net> At 10:09 PM 8/4/97 -0400, Doss wrote: (Alan wrote): >>He wrote a number of large tomes! I still have one of them, and cut my >>astrological teeth on them. It was his work in fact that led me first >>to theosophy and then Kabbalah. Doss replied: >What an interesting way you got introduced to Theosophy. I followed the same trail that Alan did (without the Kabbalah). Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 09:50:39 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805095039.00694340@pacbell.net> At 10:03 PM 8/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >In message <3.0.2.32.19970804101816.0069d98c@pacbell.net>, >techndex@pacbell.net writes >>Theosophy is a meaningless, empty shell, a >>souless entity without universal love and compassion. > >Sometimes its adherents are so busy being universal that they seem to >behave as though expressing *local* love and compassion is not >necessary. Loving God is easy - one's neighbor can be far more >difficult! Wonderful point!! It's far easier to love an abstraction (at this evolutionary point) than a wart-filled neighbor. This will all eventually sort out when the realization is reached that ones neighbor is truly oneSelf. :-) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 09:47:00 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Astrological Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805094700.00694340@pacbell.net> At 10:03 PM 8/4/97 -0400, Alan wrote: >In message <199708050100.SAA10103@palrel3.hp.com>, Titus Roth > writes >>Since you're interested in astrology, I had the following in mind when I said >>that: I associate ethics with Capricorn, ruler of the bones; and I associate >>emotional sensitivity with Cancer (opposite of Capricorn), ruler of the >>stomach and breasts - kind of soft fleshy things. > >Hmmm. Food for thought. I would perhaps associate ethics with the air >signs, and emotional sensitivity with the water signs, as a rough guide. Hi Alan, That is indeed food for thought! I see where your association is in that you're looking at ethics as mental constructs (air). I think that the connection is that Aquarius, one of the air signs is co-ruled by Saturn (which also rules Capricorn). There is a strong association between Capricorn and ethics, IMHO, probably because of what I said in my response to Titus on this same issue. This is getting really gnarly and complicated because we're looking at planets, signs, modes, and elements, so I'll have to think about this some more. ;-D >Venus can be very emotional, too. Indeed. In fact, Venus is more strongly associated with emotion than the Moon, which is strongly associated with instinctive response conditioned by past experience. Emotion and instinctive response are often confused. There's a thread currently going on the evolution list where we're trying to make a scientific distinction between the two. I'll also throw Neptune in here because it's Venus's higher octave, so we have an axis here between emotional love and transcendent Love. >I have Sun combust Venus, so I should >know .... Oooo!! Hubba, hubba! ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:30:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: What practices do Theosophists follow? Message-ID: <970805132952_30380865@emout06.mail.aol.com> I strictly avoid all regimens and make a practice of doing those things that people tell me I shouldn't do. So let's see, I eat meat at every meal. I don't wear fur except in winter but I wear a lot of leather. I use alchohol but generally avoid most drugs. I work on at least one psychic project per day, mostly in the area of long-range mind control. I try to break at least one of the ten commandments every day, a practice I have followed since childhood. Right now I'm working on a meditation involving the energy from the black hole in the center of the galaxy. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it, but it is very interesting. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:36:09 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Some funnies Message-ID: <199708051842.OAA20675@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: techndex@pacbell.net > Subject: Re: Some funnies > Date: Monday, August 04, 1997 1:52 PM > > Plutonian contacts with the angles of a chart are truly upheaving, > transformational experiences, IMHO, and I'm working to discern the inner > meaning of all of this, beyond the obvious lifestyle changes that anyone > who has a heart attack has to undergo. Life being full of surprises, I'm > sure that the deeper transformative effects will be probably quite > different than I could ever dream of. (Fortunately, whenever it hits that > sensitive point in my chart in its oscillations over my Descendant, it's > also trining my natal Mercury which happens to be conjunct my natal Pluto, > triggering that aspect as well.) ;-D > Being a Pisces Sun, Neptune is always a biggie for me. A square or opposition to Neptune can be disastrous, but a trine or sextile can be great. In 1985, I had Neptune inconjunct my Ascendant on the cusp of the 6th house for one year, along with Progressed Mars opposing my natal Neptune in the third house. For one solid year, no one could figure out what my physical problems were, no many how many doctors I went to. The month the transits past, the mystery began to clear like a fog and I was working with a new set of doctors who knew what was bothering me. A. SAFron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:39:40 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Qabala vs Kabbalah Message-ID: <199708051902.PAA25303@NetGSI.com> >Yiiiikes!!!! I thought that the only difference between Qabala and Kabbalah >(or Kabalah or Kabbala) were in transliteration of a Hebrew term and that >the differences with regard to a subset of beliefs under an overarching >term kabalism (or however its spelled). Boy, do I have a lot to learn!!! > >Lynn Don't feel bad, I thought the same thing a few years ago, and then Alan clued me it. Qabala refers to the O.T.O. and G.D. interpretations of Kabbalah. As such, it includes a lot of New Age "pathworking." They are not quite the same. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:45:46 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Fractals Message-ID: <199708051902.PAA25305@NetGSI.com> >These "fractals" are each things that we did not create, man has not >created the Magical Universe, life or the Earth. Fractals are specific >formulations; infinitely repeating self similar patterns. What specific >"fractals" are you referring to? Fractals are interdimensions--between 2nd and 3rd dimensions. They relate to the basic idea As Above So Below, and the microcosm-macrocosm doctrine. Occult mathematics, in a sense. Jerry S. Member, TI PS. We actually did create them, in the sense that we ultimately created everything ("we" referring to our inner monads). God is not a superhuman creator in the heavens. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:57:23 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Abyss Message-ID: <199708051902.PAA25314@NetGSI.com> > I have been told that the Tree is open to >interpretation, and my view of the abyss greatly departs from tradition All models, including the Tree of Life, are open to some degree of interpretation. The results of New Age Pathworking show a wide variety of experiences are possible. My experience of the Abyss is that it stands at the highest point conceivable to the human mind. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:48:56 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Mathematics Message-ID: <199708051902.PAA25310@NetGSI.com> >It is possible that the Tree of Life is an >invention I will grant you that, but the truth of the matter may be the >same as the case with mathematics. Mathematics is but a language of relationships. We humans invented the language, while our spiritual monads invented the relationships. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:54:32 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Ethics & Guilt Message-ID: <199708051902.PAA25312@NetGSI.com> >Following an ethical code should make one relatively free of 'guilt', I >would think. Exactly the opposite, my friend. Exactly the opposite. The truly guiltless follow no code of ethics (babies, animals, criminals, Adepts, etc). Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:02:43 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <199708052025.QAA29082@NetGSI.com> >....At the other >extreme, some parents were very controlling and harsh. Ostensably, they had >high ethical standards, but in reality they were merely vicariously making up >for their own lack of ethic. Are those real ethics? Yes, as you describe it, the ethics are very real, and also pretty typical. What is lacking in your two examples is compassion, not a new ethical code. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:11:36 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <199708052025.QAA29084@NetGSI.com> >... compassion without careful attention >to ethics becomes the opposite of compassion. Likewise >ethics without a cultivated compassion become unethical behavior. I disagree with your first observation, but agree with the second. Could you please give me an example of the first?? Compassion for others, if genuine, will result in ethical behavior automatically. When we worry about "careful attention to ethics" we will always find ourselves more worried about ourselves than others. "Did I do right?" "Did I make bad karma for myself?" etc, and so on. My whole point here is that we should (1) develop a strong sense of ethics and morals, (2) develop compassion, and then (3) forget ethical codes and behaviors and act out of the compassion learned in (2). By doing this, the ethics learned in (1) won't get in our way nor bloat our ego. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 97 14:11:55 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: Qabala vs. Kabala Message-ID: <199708052111.OAA16248@apple.com> >The general convention is that Qabala deals with the "magic(k)al" stuff, >whereas Kabbalah deals with the mystical stuff. In twenty years of study I have never heard that. So far as I know, whether one uses "Qabala", "Qabalah", "Kabala", "Cabala", or any of the other variant transliterations is an arbitrary choice without semantic significance. Given that the Hebrew word starts with Qoph, "Qabala" or "Qabalah" is arguably most accurate. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:14:16 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Fractals Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970805151416.0070958c@pacbell.net> At 03:02 PM 8/5/97 -0400, Jerry wrote: >PS. We actually did create them, in the sense that we ultimately >created everything ("we" referring to our inner monads). God is not a >superhuman creator in the heavens. In other words, GOD'R'US. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 00:01:10 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: TSA e-mail address changed? Message-ID: <33f0bd5c.21786934@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Doss wrote: >Hi > >TSA's e-mail address in all the publications is theos@netcom.com. When I >visited their webpage, I saw the following address: > > Click here to send e-mail to olcott@concentric.net > >Wondering if there is a new address for e-mail. I think both might be good. Joan has been using olcott@concentric.net lately, though. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:45:39 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: What practices do Theosophists follow? Message-ID: <199708060156.VAA05685@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: What practices do Theosophists follow? > Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 12:32 PM > > I strictly avoid all regimens and make a practice of doing those things that > people tell me I shouldn't do. > > So let's see, > > I eat meat at every meal. Hmmm. Pork chops. > > I don't wear fur except in winter but I wear a lot of leather. I can picture it now - and I'm not talking about shoes. > > I use alcohol but generally avoid most drugs. I used to be big drinker in my college days, but I had to stop in my late twenties because of health reasons. Drugs? Personally, I think this culture is saturated with drugs. Antibiotics, aspirin, tranquilizers, caffeine, nicotine, etc. > > I work on at least one psychic project per day, mostly in the area of > long-range mind control. > > I try to break at least one of the ten commandments every day, a practice I > have followed since childhood. Thou shalt not have bacon for breakfast. > > Right now I'm working on a meditation involving the energy from the black > hole in the center of the galaxy. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it, > but it is very interesting. If we suddenly find you missing, we'll know you got sucked in. > > Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:58:38 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199708060156.VAA05693@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version > Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 9:01 AM > > At 09:22 AM 8/5/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: > >---------- > > > >When I contacted them, they sent me a very nice magazine that Gerda > >promptly confiscated after I'd read it. Apparently, they have have no > >Lodges in Chicago, but travel to Detroit to have Lodge meetings. > > > >A. Safron > > Very very interesting. > > I wonder what made Gerda do what she did. Probably curriosity. > > At this time, the only lodge that I know of in Chicago area is the one > controlled by Frenchmen(with a sprinkling of Frenchwomen) and it is in Wheaton. Doss, the Co-Masons have been chasing me for 25 years. When I was in my twenties, I had no money for the fees and no car to get to Wheaton. Twenty years later, they were ready to initiate me when I backed out. I couldn't see myself traveling those dark roads from Wheaton to Chicago, around 1 am, which is when the meetings let out. I've realized that Olcott's Co-Masonry is basically for those who live there or nearby. If you have a burning desire to practice Masonry, you'll make the sacrifice and drive the distance. After 24 years of driving, I'm burnt out. My husband is legally blind and I have driven him wherever he wants. When my mother came to live upstairs from me, she never learned to drive and I drove here anywhere she wanted, especially when her health was failing. Who drove me? Me. I have been sick as a dog and driven myself to the doc because their simply is no one else. Driving? I do it a little as possible. For me, a trip on a bus is a big treat. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:55:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Astrology Message-ID: In view of recent interest in the subject, I have uploaded to the web site the file Zodiac.txt This gives descriptions for each of the "faces" of 5 degrees each as originally delineated by the 18th century astrologer Simmonite. The introduction to the file gives more details. Astrologers, enjoy! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:57:23 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Just a little more astrology Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >I have Pluto conjunct my natal Mercury and both are conjuct the MC and the >south node. YIKES! Maybe you write upside down? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:10:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Astrology Message-ID: Revised post: In view of recent interest in the subject, I have uploaded to the web site the file Zodiac.txt - under DIRECTORY/ASTROLOGY This gives descriptions for each of the "faces" of 5 degrees each as originally delineated by the 18th century astrologer Simmonite. The introduction to the file gives more details. Astrologers, enjoy! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:39:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: What practices do Theosophists follow? Message-ID: <$bCZ9kAUP+5zEw6w@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199708060156.VAA05685@marconi.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >> Right now I'm working on a meditation involving the energy from the black >> hole in the center of the galaxy. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it, >> but it is very interesting. > >If we suddenly find you missing, we'll know you got sucked in. YES! YES! YES! hehehehehehehe Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:37:11 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Mathematics Message-ID: <8ryZxgAXN+5zEw4C@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199708051902.PAA25310@NetGSI.com>, Jerry Schueler writes >Mathematics is but a language of relationships. We humans invented >the language, while our spiritual monads invented the relationships. We are unable to find the record of this in our archives, but will conduct a second search. Spiritual Monads Section, Great Pink Motherhood. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:16:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Astrologers Unite! Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970805020639.00d9e068@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >>He wrote a number of large tomes! I still have one of them, and cut my >>astrological teeth on them. It was his work in fact that led me first >>to theosophy and then Kabbalah. >> >>Alan >>--------- > >What an interesting way you got introduced to Theosophy. > >I think Leo's wife was also a well known astrologer. Bessie Leo. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:25:43 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: What practices do Theosophists follow? Message-ID: <$rOZxTAnC+5zEwZ5@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33E758D0.1B3F@eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >Hi, here is something from the TSA URL: > >----------------------------- > >What practices do Theosophists follow? > >All members of the Theosophical Society decide >what practices and manner of living are appropriate for them, >but many Theosophists follow a >certain regimen of life that is implied by >Theosophical ideas like those above. They meditate >regularly, both to gain insight into themselves and >as a service to humanity. They are >vegetarians and avoid the use of furs or skins for which >animals are killed. They do not use >alcohol or drugs (except under a doctor's order). >They support the rights of all human beings >for fair and just treatment, being therefore supporters >of women's and minority rights. They >respect differences of culture and support intellectual >freedom. Theosophists are not asked to >accept any opinion or adopt any practice that does >not appeal to their inner sense of reason >and morality. > >-------------------------------- > >Any comments? Yes. Replace "All" with "Some" members of the Theosophical Society. > Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:23:05 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Abyss Message-ID: <6LVYJNAJA+5zEwbe@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199708051902.PAA25314@NetGSI.com>, Jerry Schueler writes >My experience of the Abyss is that it stands at the highest >point conceivable to the human mind. I would say "usable by" rather than "conceivable to." Pragmatic POV. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:34:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Astrological Message-ID: <1LlbJdAJL+5zEw7r@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <3.0.2.32.19970805094700.00694340@pacbell.net>, techndex@pacbell.net writes >>I have Sun combust Venus, so I should >>know .... > >Oooo!! Hubba, hubba! ;-D .. and Sun trine Neptune ... Alan :-* From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 22:24:36 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TSA e-mail address changed? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970806032436.00c85c14@mail.eden.com> At 08:01 PM 8/5/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>Hi >> >>TSA's e-mail address in all the publications is theos@netcom.com. When I >>visited their webpage, I saw the following address: >> >> Click here to send e-mail to olcott@concentric.net >> >>Wondering if there is a new address for e-mail. > >I think both might be good. Joan has been using >olcott@concentric.net lately, though. > The official publications & letter heads give theos@netcom.com and the official www home page gives the olcott@.... address. May be important official msgs go to the former and the not that important ones go the latter I suppose. Thanks for the clarification. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 22:30:18 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970806033018.00bc730c@mail.eden.com> At 09:57 PM 8/5/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version >> Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 9:01 AM >> >> At 09:22 AM 8/5/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >> >---------- >> > >> >When I contacted them, they sent me a very nice magazine that Gerda >> >promptly confiscated after I'd read it. Apparently, they have have no >> >Lodges in Chicago, but travel to Detroit to have Lodge meetings. >> > >> >A. Safron >> >> Very very interesting. >> >> I wonder what made Gerda do what she did. > >Probably curriosity. >> >> At this time, the only lodge that I know of in Chicago area is the one >> controlled by Frenchmen(with a sprinkling of Frenchwomen) and it is in Wheaton. > >Doss, the Co-Masons have been chasing me for 25 years. When I was in my >twenties, I had no money for the fees and no car to get to Wheaton. Twenty >years later, they were ready to initiate me when I backed out. I couldn't see >myself traveling those dark roads from Wheaton to Chicago, around 1 am, which >is when the meetings let out. > >I've realized that Olcott's Co-Masonry is basically for those who live there or >nearby. If you have a burning desire to practice Masonry, you'll make >the sacrifice and drive the distance. > >After 24 years of driving, I'm burnt out. My husband is legally blind and >I have driven him wherever he wants. When my mother came to live upstairs >from me, she never learned to drive and I drove here anywhere she wanted, >especially when her health was failing. Who drove me? Me. I have been sick >as a dog and driven myself to the doc because their simply is no one else. >Driving? I do it a little as possible. For me, a trip on a bus is a big treat. > >A. Safron Charity starts at home and you have done well. You have not lost nothing by not joining Co-Masonry. Whatever Theosophy we all have learnt and understood will carry us very very far. Practical application of Universal Brother/Sister/Humanhood is what is critically needed, IMHO. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 09:12:15 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Co-Masonry URL Message-ID: <33E734BF.691B@eden.com> The American Co Masonry has a URL. Has some interesting information. The URL is: http://www.sni.net/~cumsille/ PS: Many members of TS are also members of American Co Masonry which admits women. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 22:44:54 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: What practices do Theosophists follow? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970806034454.00c91cf4@mail.eden.com> At 10:57 PM 8/5/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <33E758D0.1B3F@eden.com>, M K Ramadoss >writes >>Hi, here is something from the TSA URL: >> >>----------------------------- >> >>What practices do Theosophists follow? >> >>All members of the Theosophical Society decide >>what practices and manner of living are appropriate for them, >>but many Theosophists follow a >>certain regimen of life that is implied by >>Theosophical ideas like those above. They meditate >>regularly, both to gain insight into themselves and >>as a service to humanity. They are >>vegetarians and avoid the use of furs or skins for which >>animals are killed. They do not use >>alcohol or drugs (except under a doctor's order). >>They support the rights of all human beings >>for fair and just treatment, being therefore supporters >>of women's and minority rights. They >>respect differences of culture and support intellectual >>freedom. Theosophists are not asked to >>accept any opinion or adopt any practice that does >>not appeal to their inner sense of reason >>and morality. >> >>-------------------------------- >> >> >>Any comments? > >Yes. Replace "All" with "Some" members of the Theosophical Society. >> >Alan >--------- Wonderful observation. Hope who ever wrote the script for the website would make the change. What a change has been brought about in 122 years since founding! HPB ate meat and perhaps wore fur and leather. HSO ate meat and perhaps wore fur and leather. APS ate meat and also drank and perhaps wore fur and leather. AOH ate meat and also drank and perhaps wore fur and leather. I don't know if any or all of them meditated regularly. Were they all wrong or did not understand and practice Theosophy? Were the Real Founders who selected each one of the above in Their effort to launch the TS were wrong? Could they not find, vegetarian, meditating, tee-totalers, who did not wear fur or use leather? They could have found tens of 1000s in India. Need to think about it. (Hint: There is a mention in the ML to APS.) Any newbee visiting the URL may get the wrong impression that TS has a creed or even a cult. When membership is on a downward trend, the web page may indeed have a negative effect on potential members. Just my 2 cents. .................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 00:07:02 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Sickly-Sweet Ethics Defined Message-ID: <199708060707.AAA22236@palrel3.hp.com> "Jerry Schueler" asked about my statement (Titus) >> ... compassion without careful attention to ethics becomes the opposite of >> compassion. Likewise ethics without a cultivated compassion become >> unethical behavior. (Jerry) > I disagree with your first observation, but agree with the second. > Could you please give me an example of the first?? I can care about a person, and out of ignorance not want to hurt their feelings by telling him or her a helpful truth. Ultimately this harms the person. With an attention to ethics, I would pause in my well-meaning caring. With a right use of that pause, I would banish my ignorance and make my caring effective. One can play semantic games by saying, "Well, in the first place you didn't have real compassion," but I'm trying to talk about two vital polar qualities and how they need each other and can work against each other if you do not have a transcendent viewpoint. > Compassion for others, if genuine, will result in ethical behavior > automatically. OK. Let's just say that what you mean by genuine compassion is what I mean by compassion + ethics. Achieving genuine compassion requires a knowledge of Law. In the end, Law and Love are two faces of the same thing. Yet on our plane, there are distinct enough expressions of that "same thing" and distinct problems with emphasizing one pole over another. > When we worry about "careful attention to ethics" we will always find > ourselves more worried about ourselves than others. "Did I do right?" "Did > I make bad karma for myself?" etc, and so on. That's an assumption based on your concept of ethics. Ethics also relate to what is right for others. I have tried to describe what I think HPB, Jesus and various Christian and Hindu sages meant by a clean life. Admittedly, those words have been used very hypocritically by some and hence have acquired a bad taste to some. But I find value in them. They do not satisfy you and that's really OK. The world would be a sorry place if we all had to have the same concepts. I don't mean to cut off any profitable discussion; I'm just a little tired of the topic. Ciao, Titus From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:04:06 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Animal Souls Message-ID: <199708061301.JAA14068@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: techndex@pacbell.net > Subject: Re: Animal Souls > Date: Monday, August 04, 1997 1:53 PM > > At 06:03 PM 8/2/97 -0400, Tom wrote: > > >I have always liked Leadbeater's analogy of a pail of water being the > >group soul, and each animal being analogous to taking part of the > >water that is in the pail and temporarily being put into a separate > >container, so that it acquires its own unique qualities > > I agree with you all the way up to your last sentence. ;-D If you're > discussing simultaneous movements in a flying flock of birds, I've seen > explanations (some of them rather involved) boiling down to individual > birds following the movements of their neighbors--all physical-plane based. > IMHO, I think that if one wants to read something about group souls, I'd go for The Findhorn Garden, by Harper and Row. The people that formed that community became familiar with nature spirits, angels (devas) and the animal kingdom, as well as the plant kingdom. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:43:47 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Theos-L Digest 1177 Message-ID: <970806114240_-554687642@emout15.mail.aol.com> Lynn wrote That comment comes from someone on the path to enlightenment. Further along the path I am quite certain Lynn will write Namaste - Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:43:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: What practices do Theosophists follow? Message-ID: <970806134257_208482933@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-05 21:57:23 EDT, you write: >If we suddenly find you missing, we'll know you got sucked in. There is that possibility. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:48:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: What practices do Theosophists follow? Message-ID: <970806134659_-2040454408@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-06 04:40:46 EDT, you write: >YES! YES! YES! > >hehehehehehehe > >Alan Alan, with your luck I may come out the other end and land in Cornwall. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 18:20:25 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Astrologers and Theosophists UNITE! Message-ID: Keith: > >Also as transits my first house, I am forced to give up first one thing and >then another. I even had a major accident when it transiting Pluto conjuncted >my natal Mars. You are going through a major, agonizing transformative process!!! That's an extremely difficult transit, one that the vast majority of folks aren't forced to undergo. And I thought its excursion through my 7th house is bad enough. {{{Keith}}} Hmmm. Our charts must be mirror images, at least with respect to the angles. I'm not at all surprised about your accident when Pluto conjuncted your natal Mars. (Was there a bit of recklessness or willfulness there contributing to the accident? I'm asking purely out of scientific curiosity.) BTW, with your strong interest in astrology, I would suspect that you have a prominent Uranus. It's my rising planet and rules my MC. > >Ah, well, we could go on and on with the symbol system, but it DOES work >doesn't it? Indeed! I tell skeptics that I don't know how it works, but empirically it does. :-) Lynn *********************************** Keith: My Uranus in the 9th house of philosphy, higher learning and long distance travel ( for me meditation-traveling a very long distance to other planes ), and in Cancer near the MC. I could neve be an academic, my flashes of inspiration are too deeply FELT to be communicated with footnotes and appendices. For me the higher mind is linked to flashes of feeling - that I may or may not confuse with intuition, others trust books, I trust my guts when it comes to philosphical propositions. I think a lot of the newer schools of astrology that deal with cycles of reincarnation and lives on Atlantis etc. owe a lot to theosophy. It is a shame that there are so many theosophists out there, but don't know it by that name or are in the closet like Ken Wilber, Jean Houston, Capra, Ramdass and so many others. Yes I had the accident own purpose I guess and it has been a very hard Plutonian lesson. I broke the bones around my eye in three places, I did not require surgery. The doctor said I had amazing powere of recuperation (regeneration - Scorpio again, the best and the worst)> Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 18:37:58 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Up is down in Australia Message-ID: writes >I have Pluto conjunct my natal Mercury and both are conjuct the MC and the >south node. YIKES! Maybe you write upside down? Alan :-) Keith: No, I just think upside down, but it gets automatically turned right side up by the brain mechanism that turns the upside down image on the retina, back to right side up to our brain's perception. Everything is TOO relative. I mean people, from my perspective in North America, are walking upside down in Australia! - but they don't fall off. WE haven't used terms like the phenomenon (perspective of one observer) versus the thing-in-itself, the nouemenon, which one LIMITED human can never know. But if we were in a higher dimension, our world would look pretty flat and predictible. Maybe that is why the Masters gave Sinnet tomorrow's newspaper yesterday back in the 1880's. If we could see the FLATLANDERS so dear to Wilber and others we would find there world very Newtonian and predictable. All this quantum physics and fractal stuff (inter-deminsional, Huh, that is a new one on me, but I like it!) shows that our senses don't lie, they just don't tell 99% of the truth. Our sense help us survive on the physical plane in our present stage of evolution on this globe. Space men have difficulty, going to the bathroom and telling up from down sometimes. If I were is space, the people in Texas and Australia would both look like they were going around in circles! Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 18:51:33 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: A Tarot Question - Portals Message-ID: Many of the tarot decks( Crowley's, Waite's, Golden Dawn's, Dali's etc.) have the atributions from the Hebrew letters and astrology and many other systems. My question is the four angels of the angles - man as Aquarius, bull as Taurus, lion as Leo and Eagle as Scorpio. These have been explained (unsatisfactorially) as Ezikeil's vision, astrological directions etc. I am not satisfied. I think there is a very definite idea that that the world or universe (tarot card THE WORLD for example) is bounded by four archangles. Then there is the vesica pisces that is shaped like a mouth or vagina that contains the woman (whore or shekinah?) holding two double ended wands. This would all be academic except in my meditations I have noticed that some of these bordering figures and designs act like portals or doors to other levels of consciousness. At one time it was almost like I was going into a parallel universe like one does in a lucid dream. In a lucid dream one changes environments very quickly, but the ego-sense remains stable. I must admit I was more than afraid. I feared that if I went throught the portal I might be trapped, not in a state call enlightened, but one called psychotic. Yet, with experience one can learn to control the lucid dream state (done that) and the traveling through the portals (haven't been there). Is this what is known as "path working"?? Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:45:46 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199708061943.PAA04527@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version > Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 10:32 PM > > You have not lost nothing by not joining Co-Masonry.:-) As others have said, that if I were to have been there, I would have been there. However, I know there are others that have gained a great deal from the Co-Masons and having done so, encouraged me to join. Sometimes one group may be for one person and not for the other. The Co-Masons are basically 7th Ray, while the LCC is 2nd and 6th Ray. Those with those predominant rays in their charts would naturally be attracted to those organizations. We all can't be everywhere and if we try, we spread ourselves so thin, we are worthless. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 18:50:14 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Fractals Message-ID: <33E8FFA6.4C2C@dmv.com> "Jerry Schueler" wrote: > > Subject: Fractals > > Fractals are interdimensions--between 2nd and 3rd dimensions. > They relate to the basic idea As Above So Below, and the > microcosm-macrocosm doctrine. Occult mathematics, in a > sense. Fractals have been assigned "fractal dimensions" by the founder of the study Dr. Mandelbrot. The dimensional value serves only to help classify differences between various fractals, and the fractals are not these "interdimensions". Fractals are real mathematical objects specified by algorithims. The fractal that I am studing would have a fractal dimension greater than three, and would be described by equations involving the interaction of two scaling functions. > > PS. We actually did create them, in the sense that we ultimately > created everything ("we" referring to our inner monads). God is not a > superhuman creator in the heavens. My experience with G-d is of course very limited, but I did ask Him questions to which He gave answers during my days in elementary school. In the area that I grew up there were scientists, and I was attending school with their children. As I got information about the scientific view of our world from school instruction, I asked G-d, as I called Him, important questions that I had about scientific matters. You say that there is no superhuman creator in the heavens, I would have to tell you that I have asked Him no questions about His creative abilities or about His 'person'. I have, however, had some experiences with His ability to create, and have to tell you He is very powerful, although, to date I cannot say that I know anything more. There is great difficulty in getting Good information about Him, atheist and also the "religious" give you answers to questions about Divinity to which they have no personal knowledge, they lie in otherwords. At my request G-d has spoken to several people that are close to me. The most interesting case has been that of my best friend. He is an atheist, and G-d spoke to him to deliver a word of advice to me. I was taking a walk with my friend when G-d spoke to his mind. Well I have to tell you he had great difficulty with the experience. He repeated to me the words of advice from G-d with mortal fear. He had become very pale and seemed to be negotiating with G-d while having great difficulty delivering the message. During the process my friend said to me that he would completely forget this experience, saying it as if trying to desparately convince himself, and told me never to bring it up to him. >From this experience I have concluded that some people are really not capable of interacting with G-d, and their atheism is a very deep form of protection. Vincent > ------------------------------ -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 19:07:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Fractals Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807000728.00caeff8@mail.eden.com> At 06:51 PM 8/6/97 -0400, Vincent Beall wrote: >>From this experience I have concluded that some people are really not >capable of interacting with G-d, and their atheism is a very deep form >of protection. > >Vincent This is not unusual. I had a similar experience when I had taken my friends to hear Jiddu Krishnamurti. There were those who were shocked by his questioning every strongly held belief or views and they never ever again attended any of his lectures after one time attendance. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 02:05:53 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Thought For Food Message-ID: <33f32d70.49329273@mail.earthlink.net> Hello Gang, I noticed this on another list and thought that perhaps someone on this list may find this interesting. -----------------------------start quote----------------------------------------- -- [ . . . . . . . ] wrote: [:->> How can we love God with all our heart, mind, strength and soul without [:->> contemplation/meditation? This question is being asked by many at all [:->> levels of Christianity with increasing strength and willingness to [:->> change/grow current practices and notions of what the Christian path is [:->> its details. My point is that current Christian practice is not [:->> something that Jesus gave whole and complete but is the result of the [:->> Catholic Church principally and other Christian bodies deciding over [:->> time and often with as many political as spiritual reasons what is and [:->> is not valid Christian practice. So saying the Christianity isn't a [:->> religion of meditation and realization seems a bit overly stated to say [:->> the least. There is no full spiritual flowering without realization. [:->> And how is it that we are to love in the way that Christ taught unless [:->> we be transformed from what the average person is already? The average [:->> person is certainly not capable of loving their neighbor as themselves. [:->> The average person (almost all of us in the sense I'm using it) is a [:->> constantly changing collage of thoughts, feelings, urges with little [:->> constancy or sustained awareness. Something I believe the Church has [:->> missed for a long time is that it takes good strong spiritual exercises [:->> and meditation to develop enough individual coherence to be ready to [:->> follow Christ. Without that coherence merely saying the words and [:->> wishing to follow does not do anything but lead to self-deception [:->> and frustration. --------------------------------end quote----------------------------------- __ [- -] ````oo0`(_)`0oo``````````````````````````````````` And whatsoe'er the Godward Path may be - the Utopian will give it dignity. True brotherhood seeks only to ascend. All paths that lead to God must somewhere blend. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j. }*,*{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities - truth is not" - Mark Twain From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 19:12:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807001244.00caeb24@mail.eden.com> At 03:44 PM 8/6/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version >> Date: Tuesday, August 05, 1997 10:32 PM >> >> You have not lost nothing by not joining Co-Masonry.:-) > >As others have said, that if I were to have been there, I would have been there. >However, I know there are others that have gained a great deal from the Co-Masons >and having done so, encouraged me to join. Sometimes one group may >be for one person and not for the other. The Co-Masons are basically >7th Ray, while the LCC is 2nd and 6th Ray. Those with those predominant >rays in their charts would naturally be attracted to those organizations. >We all can't be everywhere and if we try, we spread ourselves so thin, >we are worthless. > >A. Safron I agree that there are those who are very comfortable with hierarchical structure along with the inducement that in due course of time they can progress step by step and also everyone else knows their progress. And again , many like the attractive regalia -- more colorful better it is. Different strokes for different people. As for LCC, somehow in India it never took any roots except for a solitary lodge in Adyar. Even there, when I once attended a service several years ago, the attendance was very poor. I guess in the Indian Environment a Church is a very tough sell. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 19:17:51 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Animal Souls Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807001751.00c990ec@mail.eden.com> At 02:53 PM 8/4/97 -0400, techndex@pacbell.net wrote: >At 06:03 PM 8/2/97 -0400, Tom wrote: > >>I have always liked Leadbeater's analogy of a pail of water being the >>group soul, and each animal being analogous to taking part of the >>water that is in the pail and temporarily being put into a separate >>container, so that it acquires its own unique qualities (which are >>apparent even in insects), but then, when its life is over, it goes >>back into the group soul and mixes its qualities with the group soul, >>just as the water that was in the individual container gets put back >>into the pail, mixing its qualities with that of all the other water. >>I don't know how else, but by postulating a group soul, to explain >>such events as many birds acting simultaneously. > >I agree with you all the way up to your last sentence. ;-D If you're >discussing simultaneous movements in a flying flock of birds, I've seen >explanations (some of them rather involved) boiling down to individual >birds following the movements of their neighbors--all physical-plane based. > >Lynn Some time ago, I saw a documentary on the white wolves in the arctic mountains. The area was visited by humans for the first time. The wolves with their new born cubs literally ignored the humans who were filming the documentary. They have never seen humans, and hence has never had the sad experience of being killed or maimed by humans and hence there was no "inherited" fear of humans. I thought it was a nice example of the group soul whatever we may want to call that which holds the cumulative experience. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 19:21:20 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Smoking Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807002120.00c992a4@mail.eden.com> At 02:53 PM 8/4/97 -0400, techndex@pacbell.net wrote: >At 09:11 PM 8/1/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: > >>> >>> In message <3.0.2.32.19970731133941.006a33e0@pacbell.net>, >>> techndex@pacbell.net writes >>> >Folks can't be >>> >satisfied with just pointing out the dangers of smoking and let people >make >>> >their own decisions nor even stop at banning smoking in public. Nooooo. >>> >They have to try to FORCE everyone to quit, even in the privacy of their >>> >own homes where the issue of second-hand smoke is irrelevant. >>> >>I was asthmatic as a child and allergic to cigarette smoke. My mother, who >>smoked, always smoked in another room of the house, the porch, where >>the smoke would dissipate out the window. She even put on a coat in winter >>and smoked out there. My father smoked cigars, but only outdoors. >>If 2nd hand smoke is irrelevant, then they were clueless to that that notion. > >Hi Anne, > >You're right. I should not have said "irrelevant". In fact, I myself >shouldn't be exposed to second-hand smoke because I have heart disease. >(And I live with three smokers.) The real point that I was trying so poorly >to make that, in ones own home, it should be a decision made by those >affected and involved, not by other individuals, including governments. > >Lynn When I saw the subject and was discussing with a friend of mine about "what theosophists do" according to the TSA www FAQ, my friend reminded me that the first encounter of HSO with HPB happened when HSO offered to light HPB's cigarette and ended up founding TS. Just for those who may not be aware! ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:17:03 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: What practices do Theosophists follow? Message-ID: In message <970806134659_-2040454408@emout16.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-08-06 04:40:46 EDT, you write: > >>YES! YES! YES! >> >>hehehehehehehe >> >>Alan > >Alan, with your luck I may come out the other end and land in Cornwall. > >Chuck the Heretic I'll set some traps ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:08:39 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Creed and Cult Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970806034454.00c91cf4@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >Were the Real Founders who selected each one of the above in Their effort to >launch the TS were wrong? Could they not find, vegetarian, meditating, >tee-totalers, who did not wear fur or use leather? They could have found >tens of 1000s in India. Need to think about it. (Hint: There is a mention in >the ML to APS.) I have heard the Indian Section is by far the largest in the world. Do you know if this is true? > >Any newbee visiting the URL may get the wrong impression that TS has a creed >or even a cult. When membership is on a downward trend, the web page may >indeed have a negative effect on potential members. But the TS *HAS* a creed and *IS* a cult :-( Reading the literature makes that crystal clear id the reader is objective. Most TS members believe (for example) in reincarnation because the TS *teaches* it. Etc. ....... > >Just my 2 cents. Make it $10 Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:23:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A Tarot Question - Portals Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >I must admit I was more than afraid. I feared that if I went throught the >portal I might be trapped, not in a state call enlightened, but one called >psychotic. Yet, with experience one can learn to control the lucid dream >state (done that) and the traveling through the portals (haven't been there). >Is this what is known as "path working"?? Some would say so. Stay afraid and you should survive! Personally I find it interesting but unreliable as evidence, as the subjective element can be very strong indeed. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:16:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Who Ray Message-ID: In message <199708061943.PAA04527@mcfeely.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >The Co-Masons are basically >7th Ray ?? Could you elucidate further ...? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:20:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Fractals Message-ID: In message <33E8FFA6.4C2C@dmv.com>, Vincent Beall writes >>From this experience I have concluded that some people are really not >capable of interacting with G-d, and their atheism is a very deep form >of protection. Your spelling of the Name is consistent with some Jewish practice, esp. 'Hasidic. Is this coincidence? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:14:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Up is down in Australia Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >If I were is space, the people in Texas and Australia would both look like >they were going around in circles! In space, there is no place on earth identifiable as Texas, and North America has no borders with Canada and Mexico. Anyhow, we are all (I am told) hurtling through space at 18,000 miles an hour - and we don't even notice! Alan ... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:25:59 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: India Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970807001244.00caeb24@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >I guess in the Indian Environment a >Church is a very tough sell. > >...........doss Too many Banyan trees? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:47:53 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Creed and Cult Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807034753.00ee3c0c@mail.eden.com> At 09:36 PM 8/6/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970806034454.00c91cf4@mail.eden.com>, >ramadoss@eden.com writes >>Were the Real Founders who selected each one of the above in Their effort to >>launch the TS were wrong? Could they not find, vegetarian, meditating, >>tee-totalers, who did not wear fur or use leather? They could have found >>tens of 1000s in India. Need to think about it. (Hint: There is a mention in >>the ML to APS.) > >I have heard the Indian Section is by far the largest in the world. Do >you know if this is true? Very likely. Considering the population of 1 Billion, the membership in proportion may still be small. .................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:52:37 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: India Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807035237.00f3271c@mail.eden.com> At 10:08 PM 8/6/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970807001244.00caeb24@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss > writes >>I guess in the Indian Environment a >>Church is a very tough sell. >> >>...........doss > >Too many Banyan trees? > >Alan :-) In Indian tradition there is no conversion from one faith to another. Secondly, I think the social pressures are enormous and anyone converting is likely to face a lot of boycots like what is happening in Japan. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:54:41 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Bumper Sticker Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807035441.00ed2378@mail.eden.com> I saw the following bumper sticker: God save me from all your followers! It made my day. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:34:48 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Fractals Message-ID: <199708070434.WAA25164@mailmx.micron.net> Vincent wrote: >There is great difficulty in getting Good information about Him, atheist >and also the "religious" give you answers to questions about Divinity to >which they have no personal knowledge, they lie in otherwords. "They lie?" Hmmm. When one's experience, or lack of experience, with God differs from another's, it does not necessarily mean one or the other is lying. However, let us take your argument further - how do I know YOU are NOT telling a 'lie' about God? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:35:47 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Who Ray Message-ID: <199708071233.IAA28223@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Who Ray > Date: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 8:39 PM > > In message <199708061943.PAA04527@mcfeely.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" > writes > >The Co-Masons are basically > >7th Ray > > ?? Could you elucidate further ...? The 7th Ray, and the energies of the Aquarian Age which it stimulates, began coming into manifestation in the current world cycle in the year 1675, while the influences of the 6th Ray and the Piscean Era were just beginning to wane. As the New Age energies gain the strength of their expression, the characteristics of the 7th Ray will become increasingly apparent to us all. The 7th Ray is essentially an agent of fusion, blending and coordination. Its main function is to work for the infusion of the energies of spirit with the substance of matter "Matter and energy are interchangeable" is the message contained within Einstein's formula of relativity: E=mc 2. "Matter is Spirit at its lowest point of manifestation and Spirit is matter at its highest," said HPB. "When matter and spirit vibrate at the same rate, evolution and involution will cease," say the Ancient Wisdom Teachings. Thus the 7th Ray demonstrates itself most clearly thorough the transformation of matter. In this respect, it is the working of the 7th Ray which aid in the fusion of the Soul and personality, and the resulting reorientation of an individual's life purpose and direction. It is this process of Soul infusion that can be symbolically rendered by the 7th Ray alchemist as the process of changing lead into gold. The hope for the Aquarian Age, the Age of the 7th Ray, is for such a collective transformation and reorientation to take place for humanity. . . The 7th Ray is particularly associated with the 7th place of manifestation-the physical. Its purpose, therefore, in terms of physical reality, is to bring out into objective appearance all the latent spirituality qualities contained within a given form. An individual who has actively integrated his or her lower and Higher selves and is living the of a spiritually realized human being reveal it by the special radiation he exudes. The 7th also bring its quality of radiation into the mineral kingdom, to which it is especially connected. It is this 7th Ray influence which stimulates the intense qualities of attractiveness and potency in gemstones, as well as the inherent radioactivity of certain elements. The 7th is most particularly the Ray of crystals. . . . The 7th Ray unifies, but I also contains the potential for conformity. This can be the emotional conformity of Cancer, where everyone shares the same feelings in order to lend security to the whole. It may also be the social conformity of etiquette and collective social behavioral patterns expressed through Libra. This is most notably demonstrated by Japan and the Japanese, who are a nation and a people strongly influenced by Libra and the 7th Ray. . . Like the other 6 Rays, the 7th also has several other names associated with it. Some are: the Unveiled Magician; the Bestower of Light from the Second Lord; the Custodian of the Seventh Plane; the Builder of the Square; the Expression of the Will; and the Revealer of Beauty. People who are especially connected to the 7th Ray are lovers of ceremony. They delight when things are done properly and in order. (As in the Co-Masons) Taken from "Soul-Centered Astrology" by Alan Oken A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:49:55 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: alt.theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970806144955.00d292c0@mail.eden.com> For those of you who do not know or is under mistaken information, alt.theosophy newsgroup is alive and well even though the message traffic is sparse. It is quite possible that your ISP may not carry the newsgroup and if so you need to contact the ISP and request it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 09:48:56 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: STIL-LIGHT Message-ID: <01IM5JRPR30A914X9D@InfoAve.Net> The following was relayed to me by a board member. The Stil-light board has not voted yet as to agree or disagree with the following items. people who are interested (especially those in the south-east USA) should be notified. john ============================================================= This is what the TS Board approved at their meeting: 1. Create a restricted fund within TIT (Stil-L:ight Fund"), the income from which is to be used solely to promote Theosophical work primarily in the Stil-Light area (North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, Virginia). 2. Deposit in this Fund the proceeds from the sale of the Stil-Light property and all assets of the Stil-Light Corporation. 3. Appoint a committee for the Stil-Light Fund, whose duty is to recommend to the National Board of Directors the expenditure of the income from the Fund for work in the Stil-Light area. This committee is to consisst initaqlly of the lpresent members and past presidents of the Stil-Light Board who are still members of the Society. The committee is to be appointed annually by the National board of Directors on a rotating basis, with reappoinment possible and the requirements for appointment being active membership in TSA and familiarity with the Stil-Light area. Among the work eligible for support by Stil-Light funds are included, but not limited to, conventions, seminars, workshops, and lectures at such locations as Lake Junaluska (near the orignial Stil-Light location), other camp or retreat sites, and urban centers throughout the Stil-Light area. It is expected that the Stil-Light Committee will develop and propose vigorous activities in the Stil-Light area to strengthen existing local Theosophical groups, create new ones, serve the needs of members-at-large, and reach out to the public to make Theosophy better known throughout the Stil-Light area. In the course of carrying out its mandate, the Committee is free to, and is expected to, consult with other officers of the former Stil-Light Board, former members of Stil-Light and Theosophists throughout the Stil-Light area. =========================================================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 08:59:54 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Up is down in Australia Message-ID: <199708071559.IAA05730@palrel3.hp.com> "Dr. A.M.Bain" wrote: > Anyhow, we are all (I am told) hurtling through space at 18,000 miles an > hour - and we don't even notice! Furthermore stars and entire galaxies are receding from us. Those at the edge of the universe receding at close to the speed of light. But when you really think about it, who can blame them. Is the universe trying to tell us something? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 12:16:50 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: STIL-LIGHT Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807171650.00c81354@mail.eden.com> Hi I appreciate John posting this msg. The magic of Internet makes this info available instantly to all of us all over the world. But for it, we would have never known what is going on. What is proposed seems to be the blue print for future re-run of how funds of closed lodges and branches and centers are going to be controlled. With the declining and aging membership, we will see more and more of closings and hence every member in every part of the country may want to ponder over the long term practical implications from the point of local Theosophical interests vs the interests at Wheaton. Of the top of my head I have some comments for everyone's consideration. At 09:46 AM 8/7/97 -0400, John E Mead wrote: >The following was relayed to me by a board member. >The Stil-light board has not voted yet as to agree or disagree >with the following items. people who are interested (especially those in >the south-east USA) should be notified. > >john > >============================================================= > >This is what the TS Board approved at their meeting: > >1. Create a restricted fund within TIT (Stil-L:ight Fund"), the income >from >which is to be used solely to promote Theosophical work primarily in the >Stil-Light area (North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, >Tennessee, >Kentucky, Virginia). > MKR: (1) What kind of corporation is Stil-Light? (2) What is the current status of the Stil-Light Corporation? (3) Is it alive or has it been dissolved? (4) Is it 501(c)(3) Tax Exempt for tax purposes? (5) Can John or somebody post the articles of incorporation and the bylaws? BTW, these are not secret documents. They are public documents. If they need to be scanned, I can arrange to get them scanned and posted here. >2. Deposit in this Fund the proceeds from the sale of the Stil-Light >property and all assets of the Stil-Light Corporation. > MKR: (1) Is Stil-Light corporation going to be completely shut down? (2) Why not keep the corporation alive, and then it can hold the funds and decide on how it is spent for local activities. (3) By keeping the corporation open, the officers of the corporation would be able to operate it for the benefit of local theosophical activities and avoid micro manage- ment by remote control by the Board of Directors. (4) This will also avoid any conflict being there between what the local board wants to do and what the National Board wants to do. (5) The proposed set up of a committee is just *advisory* only and the National Board can override and there is no appeal from the decision of the National Board. In effect National Board will dictate what is done with the money. >3. Appoint a committee for the Stil-Light Fund, whose duty is to recommend >to the National Board of Directors the expenditure of the income from the >Fund for work in the Stil-Light area. > >This committee is to consisst initaqlly of the lpresent members and past >presidents of the Stil-Light Board who are still members of the Society. >The >committee is to be appointed annually by the National board of Directors on >a >rotating basis, with reappoinment possible and the requirements for >appointment being active membership in TSA and familiarity with the >Stil-Light area. MKR: (1) What is proposed seems to indicate that National Board will control everything and has final say on every thing. (2) The way the committee is proposed has some serious problems in the long run. (3) One way to provide for democratic representation would be to make certain that *majority* of the members of the committee are ex-officio local branch/federation officers. (4) There should be a simple mechanism to resolve any dispute between the local committee and National Board. Otherwise any disputes are likely to affect the effectiveness of local theosophical work in the long run. > >Among the work eligible for support by Stil-Light funds are included, but >not >limited to, conventions, seminars, workshops, and lectures at such >locations >as Lake Junaluska (near the orignial Stil-Light location), other camp or >retreat sites, and urban centers throughout the Stil-Light area. > >It is expected that the Stil-Light Committee will develop and propose >vigorous activities in the Stil-Light area to strengthen existing local >Theosophical groups, create new ones, serve the needs of members-at-large, >and reach out to the public to make Theosophy better known throughout the >Stil-Light area. > >In the course of carrying out its mandate, the Committee is free to, and is >expected to, consult with other officers of the former Stil-Light Board, >former members of Stil-Light and Theosophists throughout the Stil-Light >area. MKR: There is another very major issue that has not yet been fully addressed yet. This will come into focus if the proposed transfer of funds to TIT is accomplished. The current bylaws of TSA state that in the event of TSA losing its charter or being shut down, all the assets will go to TIT and held until such time TSA is reincarnated. This may not happen in the near future. But can happen down the road. In the recent past, the Charters of National Sections in some countries like Denmark, Canada have been cancelled by TS, Adyar and so no one can say it will not happen to the TSA. In such an eventuality, once the assets go to the TIT, the Trustees of TIT are not answerable to anyone -- man or god and need not even disclose any information about anything that goes on to anyone. From what I have seen, generally there in unnecessary secrecy especially when money gets into the picture. This has happened before in Trusts. It is reported that it happened in Krishnamurti Trusts when Jiddu Krishnamurti was alive and he effectually was prevented from using the Trust property for his lectures and it took long drawn out lawsuits which dragged on for 18 years (at a very great waste) before it was finally settled after Krishnamurti died. BTW, at one point, the Trustees sued Krishnamurti himself personally (along with others) for $9.00 million. Truth is stranger than fiction. If this could happen to Krishnamurti himself while he was alive, one can imagine what could happen to TIT. My 2 cents worth. M K Ramadoss >=========================================================================== > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 13:36:43 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: STIL-LIGHT Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807183643.00ec6f18@mail.eden.com> Hi Following on my previous post, here are some more items: 1. What is going to happen if Stil-Light gets reincarnated? Will the money revert back to the reincarnated Stil-Light? 2. To what extent is the local *advisory* committee is going to have autonomy in their activities and financial expenditures? Should always remember he who pays the piper calls the tune. 3. What are the rights that the *advisory* committee is going have? 4. It appears that transferring the money to TIT will result in Wheaton dictating what actitivities shall be acceptable, what shall be taught, who shall be the speakers/lecturers etc. The approach seems to be "you locals carryon the vigorous activity" but we at Wheaton will control the purse strings. 5. Keeping the Stil-Light Corporation and retaining the funds looks to be a very practical approach. 6. Whatever final decision is arrived at between Stil-Light and National Board, I think that Stil-Light should have its own legal advisor. All the issues should be resolved with the help of very competent legal help as some of the decisions are irrevocable and cannot be undone especially from the local perspective. Even if it is going to cost some legal fees, it is well worth it because so much is at stake as far as the local long term interests are concerned. M K Ramadoss At 09:46 AM 8/7/97 -0400, John E Mead wrote: >The following was relayed to me by a board member. >The Stil-light board has not voted yet as to agree or disagree >with the following items. people who are interested (especially those in >the south-east USA) should be notified. > >john > >============================================================= > >This is what the TS Board approved at their meeting: > >1. Create a restricted fund within TIT (Stil-L:ight Fund"), the income >from >which is to be used solely to promote Theosophical work primarily in the >Stil-Light area (North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, >Tennessee, >Kentucky, Virginia). > >2. Deposit in this Fund the proceeds from the sale of the Stil-Light >property and all assets of the Stil-Light Corporation. > >3. Appoint a committee for the Stil-Light Fund, whose duty is to recommend >to the National Board of Directors the expenditure of the income from the >Fund for work in the Stil-Light area. > >This committee is to consisst initaqlly of the lpresent members and past >presidents of the Stil-Light Board who are still members of the Society. >The >committee is to be appointed annually by the National board of Directors on >a >rotating basis, with reappoinment possible and the requirements for >appointment being active membership in TSA and familiarity with the >Stil-Light area. > >Among the work eligible for support by Stil-Light funds are included, but >not >limited to, conventions, seminars, workshops, and lectures at such >locations >as Lake Junaluska (near the orignial Stil-Light location), other camp or >retreat sites, and urban centers throughout the Stil-Light area. > >It is expected that the Stil-Light Committee will develop and propose >vigorous activities in the Stil-Light area to strengthen existing local >Theosophical groups, create new ones, serve the needs of members-at-large, >and reach out to the public to make Theosophy better known throughout the >Stil-Light area. > >In the course of carrying out its mandate, the Committee is free to, and is >expected to, consult with other officers of the former Stil-Light Board, >former members of Stil-Light and Theosophists throughout the Stil-Light >area. >=========================================================================== > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 18:14:20 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Fractals Message-ID: <33EA48BC.37F0@dmv.com> "Dr. A.M.Bain" wrote: > Subject: Re: Fractals > > Your spelling of the Name is consistent with some Jewish practice, esp. > 'Hasidic. Is this coincidence? I am a Theosophist and have never been a member of any congregation or church, but in my reading I have found this manner of spelling very appropriate and find it more agreeable. > From: kymsmith@micron.net > Subject: Re: Fractals > Vincent wrote: > > >There is great difficulty in getting Good information about Him, atheist > >and also the "religious" give you answers to questions about Divinity to > >which they have no personal knowledge, they lie in otherwords. > > "They lie?" Hmmm. When one's experience, or lack of experience, with God > differs from another's, it does not necessarily mean one or the other is lying. > > However, let us take your argument further - how do I know YOU are NOT > telling a 'lie' about God? > > Kym Well, Kym what I am saying is that people should speak from their own experiences from G-d and not simply repeat the various religious doctrines that so roundly contradict each other. There are those who claim that there is no heavenly realm beyond existance on earth, and those claiming three or even seven heavenly realms. Logic would tell us that they cannot all be true, although, one might still postulate that each one would find what he expected beyond life on earth, which is one of the more interesting doctrines. However, in my case I am reporting my own experiences and don't know anything more. I have asked very few questions, but all of the answers have been excellent. Peace be with you, Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 19:02:43 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Jupiter going direct? Message-ID: <33EA5413.6A9E@dmv.com> It has been very unseasonably cool here in Maryland the last two days, and it may continue for a few more days. This evening two geese flew over flying south; we usually don't see this until later in the year. The geese that fly over come from Canada. Anyway, could someone describe the meaning of Jupiter going direct in terms what it means to the planetary positions? I dont know very much about astrology, but I did have an astrologer do my chart and provide an interpretation. There is also, according the astrologer, heliocentric astrology which he said he knew nothing about. I have the Interactive Computer Ephemeris that was distributed by the National Observatory, and I have read some of Keplers work. Using the ICE program showed that many of Keplers relationships could be verified. There was a near Keplerian alignment of Jupiter with Saturn in March of 1994 preceeding the comet impacts in July. Is "Jupiter going direct" heliocentric or traditional astrology? later... Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:34:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Who Ray Message-ID: In message <199708071233.IAA28223@mcfeely.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >People who are especially connected to the 7th Ray are lovers of ceremony. They >delight when >things are done properly and in order. (As in the Co-Masons) > >Taken from "Soul-Centered Astrology" by Alan Oken Thanks for the long post, which I am sure will be gratefully received by many on the list - we don't get much serious stuff. Having said that, the above would have been enough to answer my question! Alan :-) P.S. - I must get round to re-reading Ernest Wood on the 7 Rays. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:36:33 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Escape from the humans! Message-ID: In message <199708071559.IAA05730@palrel3.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >"Dr. A.M.Bain" wrote: > >> Anyhow, we are all (I am told) hurtling through space at 18,000 miles an >> hour - and we don't even notice! > >Furthermore stars and entire galaxies are receding from us. Those at the edge >of the universe receding at close to the speed of light. > >But when you really think about it, who can blame them. Is the universe trying >to tell us something? B.O.? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 09:48:56 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: STIL-LIGHT Message-ID: <01IM5JRPR30A914X9D@InfoAve.Net> The following was relayed to me by a board member. The Stil-light board has not voted yet as to agree or disagree with the following items. people who are interested (especially those in the south-east USA) should be notified. john ============================================================= This is what the TS Board approved at their meeting: 1. Create a restricted fund within TIT (Stil-L:ight Fund"), the income from which is to be used solely to promote Theosophical work primarily in the Stil-Light area (North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, Virginia). 2. Deposit in this Fund the proceeds from the sale of the Stil-Light property and all assets of the Stil-Light Corporation. 3. Appoint a committee for the Stil-Light Fund, whose duty is to recommend to the National Board of Directors the expenditure of the income from the Fund for work in the Stil-Light area. This committee is to consisst initaqlly of the lpresent members and past presidents of the Stil-Light Board who are still members of the Society. The committee is to be appointed annually by the National board of Directors on a rotating basis, with reappoinment possible and the requirements for appointment being active membership in TSA and familiarity with the Stil-Light area. Among the work eligible for support by Stil-Light funds are included, but not limited to, conventions, seminars, workshops, and lectures at such locations as Lake Junaluska (near the orignial Stil-Light location), other camp or retreat sites, and urban centers throughout the Stil-Light area. It is expected that the Stil-Light Committee will develop and propose vigorous activities in the Stil-Light area to strengthen existing local Theosophical groups, create new ones, serve the needs of members-at-large, and reach out to the public to make Theosophy better known throughout the Stil-Light area. In the course of carrying out its mandate, the Committee is free to, and is expected to, consult with other officers of the former Stil-Light Board, former members of Stil-Light and Theosophists throughout the Stil-Light area. =========================================================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 12:19:14 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: STIL-LIGHT Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970807171914.00c57abc@mail.eden.com> I have posted to theos-l a response on the subject and anyone interested may want to read it over at theos-l. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:30:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Fractals, schmactals Message-ID: In message <199708070434.WAA25164@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >However, let us take your argument further - how do I know YOU are NOT >telling a 'lie' about God? People tell lies about Me all the time. Would you believe I am on both sides in every war? That's what they say about Me - and I cannot sue! Of course, I am totally opposed to all war, though I occasionally make an exception for Michael (Saint) when he has surplus fire and brimstone - but only in heaven, never in the dark depths of *your* crummy world. (Sorry, I got a bit carried away there ...) God. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 16:56:02 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Jupiter going direct? Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970807165602.0071dc28@pacbell.net> At 07:38 PM 8/7/97 -0400, Vincent wrote: >Anyway, could someone describe the meaning of Jupiter going direct in >terms what it means to the planetary positions? I dont know very much >about astrology, but I did have an astrologer do my chart and provide an >interpretation. There is also, according the astrologer, heliocentric >astrology which he said he knew nothing about. I have the Interactive >Computer Ephemeris that was distributed by the National Observatory, and >I have read some of Keplers work. Using the ICE program showed that many >of Keplers relationships could be verified. There was a near Keplerian >alignment of Jupiter with Saturn in March of 1994 preceeding the comet >impacts in July. > >Is "Jupiter going direct" heliocentric or traditional astrology? Hi Vincent, Jupiter's going direct is according to traditional astrology which is based on a geocentric view of the solar system. When a planet is retrograde, it appears to be going backward in the sky, though of course it actually isn't. (But, in astrology, symbolism is all-important.) It's simply an effect of where it is in it's orbit with respect to Earth's. Also, because of this effect, a planet can appear to stop in its orbit for a few days when going from retrograde motion to direct motion or vice versa. At that time, it's said to be stationary. (The Sun and Moon never go retrograde or stationary, BTW.) Hope this helps. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:19:18 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Fractals, schmactals Message-ID: <199708080019.SAA07082@mailmx.micron.net> God wrote: >People tell lies about Me all the time. Dear God, one time on theos I said you had the biggest thunderbolt of all - and someone (I think it was Mark) said that SIZE DOES NOT MATTER! Is this true, Oh Ancient of Days? Love, A humble mere mortal From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:27:45 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Escape from the humans! Message-ID: <199708080027.SAA07351@mailmx.micron.net> Alan quipped: >>[Titus] But when you really think about it, who can blame them. Is the universe >>trying >>to tell us something? >B.O.? No, Kym, no. . .don't laugh. . .don't do it! Fight the urge. . . From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:05:00 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: STIL-LIGHT Message-ID: <199708080136.VAA11143@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > Subject: Re: STIL-LIGHT > Date: Thursday, August 07, 1997 12:23 PM > > This has happened before in Trusts. It is reported that it happened in > Krishnamurti Trusts when Jiddu Krishnamurti was alive and he effectually was > prevented from using the Trust property for his lectures and it took long > drawn out lawsuits which dragged on for 18 years (at a very great waste) > before it was finally settled after Krishnamurti died. BTW, at one point, > the Trustees sued Krishnamurti himself personally (along with others) for > $9.00 million. Truth is stranger than fiction. > > If this could happen to Krishnamurti himself while he was alive, one can > imagine what could happen to TIT. > Money, especially in huge quantities, seems to do strange things to people. IMHO, I believe that every Lodge and Study Group houls have enough money on hand to buy coffee and a large bottle of creamer to go along with it. Sugar should be donated, as well as stirrers and styrofoam cups. Also, any snacks should be be rotated among the members in terms of cost. All groups should meet at basements, living rooms, kitchens, parks or any free space that they can find. Without any particular assets, such as property or money, NO ONE will be interested in you, nor can they come and take it away from you. And if they don't like what you are talking about, if it is not Theosophical enough for them, they can kick you out and you can meet independently and start your own group. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:38:30 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Creed and Cult Message-ID: <199708080136.VAA11167@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Creed and Cult > Date: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 8:36 PM > > >Any newbee visiting the URL may get the wrong impression that TS has a creed > >or even a cult. When membership is on a downward trend, the web page may > >indeed have a negative effect on potential members. > > But the TS *HAS* a creed and *IS* a cult :-( > A cult has to have 4 strong elements: 1. Shared belief system: Even though the higher-ups may try to promote a shared belief system, they can't get rid of people like Chuck the leather babe or any of the other free thinkers, unless they decide not renew their memberships. 2. Sustains a high level of social cohesiveness: This varies from place to place. 3. Strongly influenced by the group's behaviorial norms: NORM? Is that a word in the vocabulary of this group? 4. Imputes charismatic (sometimes divine) power to the group or to its leadership: Now while the Masters may seem god-like, they rarely make an appearance at the mall. As to leadership, I have seen no Jim Bakkers, Ramas, David Koresh's or any number of scintillating personalities that are probably as phony as a $7 dollar bill at the head of TS. Although John Algeo has a certain amount of charm, I doubt that he will proclaim himself Head Master Guru and Divine Pontificator of the TS any time soon. Believe, a REAL cult is deadly. I've been in one. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:43:30 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Who Ray Message-ID: <199708080341.XAA06766@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Re: Who Ray > Date: Thursday, August 07, 1997 6:49 PM > > In message <199708071233.IAA28223@mcfeely.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" > writes > >People who are especially connected to the 7th Ray are lovers of ceremony. They > >delight when > >things are done properly and in order. (As in the Co-Masons) > > > >Taken from "Soul-Centered Astrology" by Alan Oken > > Thanks for the long post, which I am sure will be gratefully received by > many on the list - we don't get much serious stuff. > > Having said that, the above would have been enough to answer my > question! > I just love that Bailey stuff so much I couldn't resist. It was only when I got to the last sentence that I realized IT would have been enough. But I sure got a kick out of it.:-) A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:49:09 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199708080341.XAA06777@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version > Date: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 7:27 PM > > As for LCC, somehow in India it never took any roots except for a solitary > lodge in Adyar. Even there, when I once attended a service several years > ago, the attendance was very poor. I guess in the Indian Environment a > Church is a very tough sell. > No kidding. I believe the LCC comes out of the Chrisitian/Western church, which must be on a completely different wavelength. I remember visiting a Hinus temple in Chicago and feeling the difference. I think that once you'd get rooted in one, it would be difficult to switch. A. SAfron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:25:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Fractals, schmactals Message-ID: <970808132547_1915065321@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-07 19:57:58 EDT, you write: God spake thus >People tell lies about Me all the time. Would you believe I am on both >sides in every war? That's what they say about Me - and I cannot sue! > Yeah, but you can smite! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 97 17:41:49 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Jupiter Direct Message-ID: , could someone describe the meaning of Jupiter going direct in terms what it means to the planetary positions? I dont know very much about astrology, but I did have an astrologer do my chart and provide an interpretation. There is also, according the astrologer, heliocentric astrology which he said he knew nothing about. I have the Interactive Computer Ephemeris that was distributed by the National Observatory, and I have read some of Keplers work. Using the ICE program showed that many of Keplers relationships could be verified. There was a near Keplerian alignment of Jupiter with Saturn in March of 1994 preceeding the comet impacts in July. Is "Jupiter going direct" heliocentric or traditional astrology? later... Vincent Basically, a planet's energy is more direct, extroverted and positve when it is moving in the same direction around the some (from out geocentric position). Of course, it is really direct all the time, but from our position it appears to go backward at times, or retrograde as it is called. A retrograd planet's effects are more indirect, diffused, introverted, brooding, but can have benefits to one who can benefit from meditation and hard lessons. The question I have is who is Kepler and what is a Kepler allignment? Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 12:39:09 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: RE: Jupiter going direct? Message-ID: <33EB4BAD.4135@dmv.com> The ICE calculates that the heliocentric longitude of the Earth and Jupiter will be the same at 13:30 hours on August 9th in this time zone. Is this the meaning of "direct"? Where is everybody? Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:53:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Fractals, schmactals Message-ID: <+uWJwFALG76zEwRG@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199708080019.SAA07082@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >God wrote: > >>People tell lies about Me all the time. > >Dear God, one time on theos I said you had the biggest thunderbolt of all - >and someone (I think it was Mark) said that SIZE DOES NOT MATTER! > >Is this true, Oh Ancient of Days? > >Love, > >A humble mere mortal It matters to everyone EXCEPT Me. Surley that is obvious? I am and have the bigest of everything. That's why I am God! [Thinks: just how stupid can these humans get?] God From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:03:44 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Jupiter going direct? Message-ID: <1esLcPAgP76zEwyB@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33EB4BAD.4135@dmv.com>, Vincent Beall writes >The ICE calculates that the heliocentric longitude of the Earth and >Jupiter will be the same at 13:30 hours on August 9th in this time zone. >Is this the meaning of "direct"? > >Where is everybody? > >Vincent Because the earth spins at an angle, and because astrology is a geocentric system, the astrological view of the planetary motion is how it *appears* to an earth observer. Hence, planets *seem* to be moving backwards owing to the eccentric orbit of Earth. As time passes, this appearance changes, and the planet (Jupiter in this case) *seems* to stop and start going forwards again. The movement is therefore an Earth movement, but it *appears to be* a planetary movement. Hope this makes sense. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:56:39 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Fractals, schmactals Message-ID: In message <970808132547_1915065321@emout20.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-08-07 19:57:58 EDT, you write: > >God spake thus > >>People tell lies about Me all the time. Would you believe I am on both >>sides in every war? That's what they say about Me - and I cannot sue! >> >> > >Yeah, but you can smite! > >Chuck the Heretic Careful now, sonny ... God From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 15:52:28 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Jupiter direct Message-ID: <33EB78FC.4BF8@dmv.com> theos-l@vnet.net wrote: > > From: techndex@pacbell.net > Subject: Re: Jupiter going direct? > Hi Vincent, > > Jupiter's going direct is according to traditional astrology which is based > on a geocentric view of the solar system. When a planet is retrograde, it > appears to be going backward in the sky, though of course it actually > isn't. (But, in astrology, symbolism is all-important.) It's simply an > effect of where it is in it's orbit with respect to Earth's. Also, because > of this effect, a planet can appear to stop in its orbit for a few days > when going from retrograde motion to direct motion or vice versa. At that > time, it's said to be stationary. (The Sun and Moon never go retrograde or > stationary, BTW.) Hope this helps. > > Lynn > > > Date: Fri, 8 Aug 97 17:41:49 UT > From: "JOSEPH PRICE" > Subject: Jupiter Direct > > Basically, a planet's energy is more direct, extroverted and positve when it > is moving in the same direction around the some (from out geocentric > position). Of course, it is really direct all the time, but from our position > it appears to go backward at times, or retrograde as it is called. > > A retrograd planet's effects are more indirect, diffused, introverted, > brooding, but can have benefits to one who can benefit from meditation and > hard lessons. > > The question I have is who is Kepler and what is a Kepler allignment? > > Namaste > Keith > My thanks to you Lynn and Keith for your responses. My interest in astrology has been on the back burner for a quite a while, just never had time for it. As to Kepler, Johannes Kepler was a Russian born Astrologer/Astronomer who lived in Europe during the late 16th century. He actually cast astrological charts and also contributed in the verification of the new heliocentric astromomy developed by Copernicus. Kepler became devoted to a proof that the planets orbiting the sun have distances between them that match certain proportions that are found within the Platonic Solids. He belived that the orbits of the planets were perfect circles and could be inscribed on spheres. So as an example, if one inscribes a tetrahedron within the sphere of the orbit of Jupiter then the orbit of Mars lies on a sphere inscribed within the tetrahedron. In otherwords the orbit of Jupiter has exactly three times the diameter of the orbit of Mars in Keplers geometrical model. Kepler kept working on his model until his death, but as new observations of the planets provided a better picture of the solar system much more work was required of Kepler to correct his model. His geometrical model was well received until the death blow came; Isacc Newton demonstrated, with his laws of motion, that the orbits were eliptical and not circles. Anyway, Kepler thought that the distances between the planetary orbits were fixed and that the proportions were established by G-d to be the same as ones found in the Platonic Solids. Well, the planets actually do pass through many many of his relationships, but of course only for moments during the course of their orbits, and these moments are what I meant by saying Keplerian alignments. Jupiters orbit does compare to the orbit of Mars in a proportion of three to one for moments, and Saturn to Jupiter as the square root of three (about 1.7). These types of deliniations are part of heliocentric astrology as I've heard tell of it. Later... Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:23:12 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Logograms Message-ID: <199708090323.VAA22832@mailmx.micron.net> Vincent writes: >G-d I would not have known this meant "God" if I hadn't read this was so. What does this particular version of God's name signify? Is it just an abbreviation? - (although it's not shorter) It does remind me, in a way, of how some people shorten/spell Christmas as "Xmas." Alan mentioned that there are some Jewish people who write 'The Whopper Word' like you do - which leads me to believe there is some kind of deeper meaning with this spelling. Why do you prefer "G-d?" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:39:01 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Jupiter going direct? Message-ID: <199708090639.XAA06113@palrel3.hp.com> Vincent Beall asked: > The ICE calculates that the heliocentric longitude of the Earth and > Jupiter will be the same at 13:30 hours on August 9th in this time zone. > Is this the meaning of "direct"? Not exactly. The same heliocentric longitude means that Sun and Jupiter are in opposition. It is somewhat related to retrograde motion for outer planets, though, due to the geometry of Earth, Sun and planets. At some point when an outer planet is near a square (90 degrees), conjunction, (0 degrees), or opposition (180 degrees) to the Sun, it appears to change direction with respect to the stars. This is closer to the definition of retrograde motion. The real definition of retrograde motion is that the normal forward motion of a planet through the Zodiac (say from Aries to Taurus) reverses itself and goes backward (e.g., from Taurus to Aries). In addition to the significance already posted about retrogrades, there is another interesting one: persons with a planet retrograde in their natal chart tend to reap karma related to that planet when the planet is retrograde. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 00:02:51 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: The Animal Oversoul Message-ID: <199708090702.AAA07050@palrel3.hp.com> >From The Eighth Elegy by Rilke "With all its eyes the natural world looks out into the Open. Only _our_ eyes are turned backward, and surround planet, animal, child like traps, as they emerge into their freedom. We know what is really out there only from the animal's gaze; for we take the very young child and force it around, so that it sees objects - not the Open, which is so deep in animals' faces. Free from death. We, only, can see death; the free animal has its decline in back of it, forever, and God in front, and when it moves, it moves already in eternity, like a fountain. "Never, not for a single day, do _we_ have before us that pure space into which flowers endlessly open. Always there is World and never Nowhere without the No; that pure unseparated element which one breaths without desire and endlessly knows. A child may wander there for hours, through the timeless stillness, may get lost in it and be shaken back. Or someone dies and _is_ it. For, nearing death, one doesn't see death; but stares beyond, perhaps with an animal's vast gaze. Lovers, if the beloved were not there blocking the view, are close to it, and marvel ... As if by some mistake, it opens for them behind each other ... But neither can move past the other, and it changes back to World ..." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 97 11:29:17 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Help w/blurb (fwd) Message-ID: <199708091529.LAA01893@leo.vsla.edu> Hi folks-- My book is ready to mail off this week, two manuscript copies with photos and a bunch of forms I filled out. One of the forms, a marketing questionnaire, asked that I provide a one-page (double spaced) summary of the contents to be used in preparing the back cover copy. I'm not totally happy with what I have, and am asking for last minute suggestions. But it can't be any longer! (And I prefer not to debate the point of view taken until after the book is out.) Here goes, for anyone who cares to play editor: Edgar Cayce (1877-1945) is widely acclaimed as the best- documented psychic in history and a forerunner of the holistic health movement. This book describes and evaluates his clairvoyant "readings," more than 14,000 trance discourses that address medical, theological, historical and psychological concerns raised by thousands of inquirers. Cayce is revealed as a pivotal figure in the transition from the esoteric and metaphysical movements of the late 19th century to the holistic, eclectic New Age movement of today. The author evaluates evidence for and against Cayce's relibaility in four subject areas emphasized by the readings. Cayce's medical and psychological advice is shown to be well ahead of his time in many respects, while his spiritual teachings are appraised as a reconciliation of Protestant mysticism with New Thought and Theosophy. Although the medical readings provide intriguing evidence for Cayce's ESP, his clairvoyant time travel into the past and future illustrates the fallibility of information derived through hypnotic trance. The author contends that the strengths and weaknesses of the readings reflect the knowledge and interests of their recipients as much as Cayce's personal opinions and beliefs. Sympathetic but objective in approach, this is the first book to focus on appraising the entire body of the Cayce readings from a scholarly perspective. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 11:32:24 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Golden Stairs Message-ID: <33EC8D88.46D5@sprynet.com> Titus Roth wrote: > > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > Jerry Schueler wrote: > >> > >>> All will notice that Blavatsky calls for AN OPEN MIND!!! > >> > >> Yeah, but what the heck is "a clean life" or "a pure heart" > >> for that matter?? Pretty subjective stuff. HPB was writing > >> for the masses here, and it shows. My guess is that her > >> tongue was stuffed into her cheek when she wrote this one. > >> These stairs will take the true aspirant perhaps one step, > >> but not much further. Whatever happened to the real > >> steps, like to Dare, and to Try?? > > > Try looking beyond the surface of the words. Try thinking of how each > > step is a necessity to reach the next. You should see that there are > > deeper meanings than a simple and simplistic reading might show. > > I think the straightforward meaning is a good one. I am not suggesting reinterpreting the words to something else; I am suggesting seeing the implications of following each step. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 11:36:07 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Practical Application of Karma! Message-ID: <33EC8E67.175C@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > Simple. Usually people get into a physical fight. I would think that police reports would show otherwise. Your example seemed to be anti-karma; the men were saying, "Let's not learn from the accident, let the insurance company, which is of course not owned and run by human beings, but by lifeless matter, take full responsibility." Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 11:55:18 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <33EC92E6.21B2@sprynet.com> Jerry Schueler wrote: > Speaking from my own experiences (Chuck, I think, will back me up) > as we experience other planes and slowly integrate spirituality into > our daily life, our sense of right and wrong dissolves into various shades > of gray. The expression "daily life" denotes a dualistic mentality (albeit one which you seem to be trying to lose). There is a relatively new branch of mathematics, called "fuzzy logic", which looks at complex issues not as shades of gray, but as multifactored binary situations, where the value of each alters the meanings of "black" and "white" (or, more precisely, "true" and "false") for the others. For example, if you get a job offer, there are a number of factors that may cause you to take or not take the job, but the value of some factors will change the importance of others (for a simple example, if the job required you to work 10 hours a day, that might be considered a negative, but if the salary level were high enough, it would reduce the importance of the length of the workday). It works much the same in moral issues. Each person has their own set of moral axioms (and societies have THEIR own, as well). The more moral axioms you have, the greater the chance that any given action will violate one or more of them. This gives the appearance of shades of gray, but can actually be broken down into an individual group of binary decisions, the level of each of which determines the importance of the others. Of course, with our level of ability to predict the consequences of our actions, and the amount of time it would take to think through every action, we cannot go through these factors very often. If we use, as a basic axiom (which, admittedly, has to be defined in respect to other axioms) as, "The most moral action is the one that benefits Humanity the most, never forgetting that we are part of Humanity", then the Golden Stairs are a good means to eventually acting reflexively according to this dictum. And, as the Mahatmas said, intent is the key. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:06:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Help w/blurb (fwd) Message-ID: <970809120637_1881766025@emout16.mail.aol.com> sounds pretty good to me Chuck the Heret From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:27:30 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Crank call Message-ID: <33ECE0C2.710F@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > Perhaps this is the reason why membership is plummeting in the > TS organizations. You and I have different defintions of the word "plummeting". Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:31:51 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <33ECE1C7.6D2D@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > Perhaps it comes from my upbringing in a working class > neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. Simplicity > reigned because that's a as far as people could go. Many > girls married before graduating high school, because of > pregnancy. Few had money for even a junior college. A > job as a stock boy or at a drug store was considered the > height of sucess. Gangs were the thing, even then, and you > could often hear gunshots in the middle of the night. My father, who grew up in Norwich, Connecticut in the 1920's and 1930's, tells me that every single girl in his high school class dropped out before graduation due to pregnancy. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:35:31 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Some funnies Message-ID: <33ECE2A3.6932@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Somebody actually thinks the Hodge Podge Lodge is funny? Now that is truly > scary. Actually, this year the Hodge Podge Lodge got a lot of laughs. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:48:39 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Wiccans and Satanists--to Keith Message-ID: <33ECE5B7.4338@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > Well, I know Wiccans and I know Satanists and I prefer the Satanists any day. > > Satanists know how to party while Wiccans make me want go out and help little > old ladies half-way across the street and let the speeding truck do the rest. There is good and bad among all people, even Theosophists. At one point, when preparing for a lecture on hypnotism, I researched everything Blavatsky said about Satan and Satanism (it was difficult, since Blavatsky uses two aspects of Satan, one being the Promethean aspect of the god who gives a forbidden gift to Humanity at great self-sacrifice). Her definition of Satanism, from my readings, appears to be one who rejects the spiritual aspect of reality in favor of the material aspect. The "Black Brotherhood", on the other hand, are those who reject the higher aspect of humanity in favor of the ego. The major Satanic groups (e.g. Anton LaVey's and Michael Aquino's, the latter of whom is a pretty nice guy on a personal basis) follow the Blavatskian definition of Satanism, treating it as a good and proper thing. When I was collecting golden rules, Michael told me the closest thing to a Satanic Golden Rule is, "Do good and evil to people as they deserve." Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:57:14 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Pedophilia, not homosexuality Message-ID: <33ECE7BA.2D56@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > He did NOT live ahead of his time. If he did now what he did > then, he wouldn't get away with it. We have become more > understanding of homosexuality, and more conscious of the > damage wrought by pedophiles. Of course, there is also the question, if he lived now, would he have done what he did then (if in fact he did it then). I am of the unpopular belief that humans, by and large, are capable of controlling their own actions. A person may be a pedophile, but they still have the choice of acting or not acting on the basis of those desires. There will, of course, always be those who act on their desires, even if such actions are harmful to others. It is those who need to be separated from the rest of society (note that this is a general statement, NOT an absolute one). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:20:23 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Help w/blurb (fwd) Message-ID: In message <199708091529.LAA01893@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >Hi folks-- > >My book is ready to mail off this week, two manuscript copies >with photos and a bunch of forms I filled out. One of the >forms, a marketing questionnaire, asked that I provide a >one-page (double spaced) summary of the contents to be used in >preparing the back cover copy. I'm not totally happy with what >I have, and am asking for last minute suggestions. But it >can't be any longer! (And I prefer not to debate the point of >view taken until after the book is out.) Here goes, for anyone >who cares to play editor: RIGHT: > > Edgar Cayce (1877-1945) is widely recognized as the best- documented psychic in history and a forerunner of the holistic health movement. This book describes and evaluates his clairvoyant "readings" - more than 14,000 trance discourses that address the medical, theological, historical and psychological concerns of thousands of inquirers. Cayce is revealed as a pivotal figure in the transition from the esoteric and metaphysical movements of the late 19th century to the New Age movement of today. The author evaluates evidence for and against Cayce's relibaility in four areas emphasized by the readings. Cayce's medical and psychological advice is shown to be well ahead of his time in many ways, while his spiritual teachings are appraised as a reconciliation of Protestant mysticism with New Thought and Theosophy. Although the medical readings provide intriguing evidence for Cayce's ESP, his clairvoyant "time travel" illustrates the unreliability of information derived through hypnotic trance. The author contends that the strengths and weaknesses of the readings reflect the knowledge and interests of their recipients as much as Cayce's personal opinions and beliefs. Sympathetic yet objective in approach, this is the first book to appraise the Cayce readings from a scholarly perspective. > My two penn'orth. Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 97 19:12:39 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Titus is right Message-ID: <199708092312.TAA27260@leo.vsla.edu> ..in saying that natal retrogrades produce related karma when the same planets go retrograde. If this summer is any example, anyhow. I have natal Mercury and Jupiter retrograde, and have spent hundreds of dollars trying to get Windows and Internet Explorer to work on my computer. First a boot virus, then a lightning strike, now some weird memory problem. I'm about to give up, $300 poorer, and go back to DOS and Lynx. This during a period when Jupiter was retrograde. Jupiter rules expansion and reward; hence retrograde means efforts to expand one's world are frustrated and expensive. Make sense? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 19:08:24 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Logograms, Jupiter, "fuzzy logic" Message-ID: <33ECF868.426C@dmv.com> theos-l@vnet.net wrote: > > Subject: Logograms > Vincent writes: > > >G-d > > I would not have known this meant "God" if I hadn't read this was so. What > does this particular version of God's name signify? Is it just an > abbreviation? - (although it's not shorter) It does remind me, in a way, of > how some people shorten/spell Christmas as "Xmas." > > Alan mentioned that there are some Jewish people who write 'The Whopper > Word' like you do - which leads me to believe there is some kind of deeper > meaning with this spelling. > > Why do you prefer "G-d?" It is mean to demonstrate reverence for the Names of Divinty. Jewish writers also ascribe to the belief that the Hebrew alphabet is sacred which I think bleeds over and influences their writing in other alphabets. For me written symbols have no literal Holiness, although, I believe that taking pause before mentioning G-d is a good thing to do. > ------------------------------ > From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" > Subject: Re: Jupiter going direct? > > Because the earth spins at an angle, and because astrology is a > geocentric system, the astrological view of the planetary motion is how > it *appears* to an earth observer. Hence, planets *seem* to be moving > backwards owing to the eccentric orbit of Earth. As time passes, this > appearance changes, and the planet (Jupiter in this case) *seems* to > stop and start going forwards again. > > The movement is therefore an Earth movement, but it *appears to be* a > planetary movement. > > Hope this makes sense. > > Alan > > From: Titus Roth > > Subject: Re: Jupiter going direct? > Vincent Beall asked: > > > The ICE calculates that the heliocentric longitude of the Earth and > > Jupiter will be the same at 13:30 hours on August 9th in this time zone. > > Is this the meaning of "direct"? > > Not exactly. The same heliocentric longitude means that Sun and Jupiter are in > opposition. It is somewhat related to retrograde motion for outer planets, > though, due to the geometry of Earth, Sun and planets. At some point when an > outer planet is near a square (90 degrees), conjunction, (0 degrees), or > opposition (180 degrees) to the Sun, it appears to change direction with > respect to the stars. This is closer to the definition of retrograde > motion. The real definition of retrograde motion is that the normal forward > motion of a planet through the Zodiac (say from Aries to Taurus) reverses > itself and goes backward (e.g., from Taurus to Aries). > > In addition to the significance already posted about retrogrades, there is > another interesting one: persons with a planet retrograde in their natal chart > tend to reap karma related to that planet when the planet is retrograde. I think I follow everything that you and Alan have written, although, it seems to me that when the angular position of the Earth become the same as Jupiter, at that point the apparent motion of Jupiter would reverse in direction. So is the correct time for the beginning of the direct phase on the 8th or on the 9th at 1:30 in the afternoon? > > ------------------------------ > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... > > It works much the same in moral issues. Each person has their own set > of moral axioms (and societies have THEIR own, as well). The more moral > axioms you have, the greater the chance that any given action will > violate one or more of them. This gives the appearance of shades of > gray, but can actually be broken down into an individual group of binary > decisions, the level of each of which determines the importance of the > others. Of course, with our level of ability to predict the consequences > of our actions, and the amount of time it would take to think through > every action, we cannot go through these factors very often. If we use, > as a basic axiom (which, admittedly, has to be defined in respect to > other axioms) as, "The most moral action is the one that benefits > Humanity the most, never forgetting that we are part of Humanity", then > the Golden Stairs are a good means to eventually acting reflexively > according to this dictum. And, as the Mahatmas said, intent is the key. > > Bart Lidofsky Bart, your insight into evaluating ethics as problems in fuzzy logic is really very excellent. I have a volume on the design of neural networks and am slowly wading through it. Can you suggest any titles on the applications of fuzzy logic to philosophy, it may every much a benifit to mankind as the new machines that will be designed with it. Vincent > > ------------------------------ -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:01:55 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Crank call Message-ID: <199708100127.VAA06785@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Crank call > Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 4:28 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > > Perhaps this is the reason why membership is plummeting in the > > TS organizations. > > You and I have different defintions of the word "plummeting". > Dear Bartsky, I don't remember the original post at all, but here's a definition of "plummeting" which we may use to discuss. plum·met verb, intransitive plum·met·ed, plum·met·ing, plum·mets 1. To fall straight down; plunge. 2. To decline suddenly and steeply: Stock prices plummeted. [Middle English plomet, from Old French, ball of lead, diminutive of plom, plomb, sounding lead, from Latin plumbum.] A. SAfron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:03:53 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Pedophilia, not homosexuality Message-ID: <199708100127.VAA06793@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Pedophilia, not homosexuality > Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 4:58 PM > > K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > He did NOT live ahead of his time. If he did now what he did > > then, he wouldn't get away with it. We have become more > > understanding of homosexuality, and more conscious of the > > damage wrought by pedophiles. > > Of course, there is also the question, if he lived now, would he have > done what he did then (if in fact he did it then). . . Let's all hope we do then a lot better than we are doing it now. A. SAfron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:09:36 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <33ED3F00.2F41@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > Personaly, if anyone ever approached me again and tries to censure me (First Amendment Right) > because of some kind of TS hush-hush, I am going to tell them to give me back my $30 odd > dollars k and I will give them my membership back. John Algeo has personally assured me that, regardless of any limitations of my use of the New York Theosophical Society Internet account, he cannot and will not even suggest that I limit anything I do with my own account. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:13:13 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Original Post Message-ID: <33ED3FD9.2C8A@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > > >If the world contains all things theosophical and that includes sexual > banter, then > >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at > >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > > > >A. Safron I have personally recommended this list to people at Olcott; I did not hear a single person say anything negative about this list, although most did not know about the list one way or another. I heard a lot of positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:28:14 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <33ED435E.5121@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > From: Tom Robertson -- quote eliminated for brevity > Boy, you sure an babble on. I am interested in what you intended for your message to accomplish. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 08:10:24 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <199708101811.OAA13578@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha > Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 11:29 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > > > From: Tom Robertson > > -- quote eliminated for brevity > > > Boy, you sure can babble on. > > I am interested in what you intended for your message to accomplish. > > Bart Lidofsky Bart, many of the posts that go between Tombo and myself, are love banter, as we have become quite fond of each other. If you find this offensive, simply hit the delete key. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 08:13:07 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Original Post Message-ID: <199708101811.OAA13591@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Original Post > Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 11:14 PM > > ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > > > > >If the world contains all things theosophical and that includes sexual > > banter, then > > >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at > > >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > > > > > >A. Safron > > I have personally recommended this list to people at Olcott; I did not > hear a single person say anything negative about this list, although > most did not know about the list one way or another... Are you calling me a liar? Have you spoken to every single person that I have at the same time and place? I doubt this. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 08:17:22 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <199708101811.OAA13600@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha > Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 11:10 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > > Personaly, if anyone ever approached me again and tries to censure me (First Amendment Right) > > because of some kind of TS hush-hush, I am going to tell them to give me back my $30 odd > > dollars k and I will give them my membership back. > > John Algeo has personally assured me that, regardless of any > limitations of my use of the New York Theosophical Society Internet > account, he cannot and will not even suggest that I limit anything I do > with my own account. > It is good to know that those at the top have more sense than those at the bottom. My personal convervsation with an Olcott individual stated that I should limit what I say about TS and in no in certain terms. Perhaps this person is stating their own personal opinion rather than the opinion of the administrative. Thanks for clearing it up. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:28:34 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Logograms, Jupiter, "fuzzy logic" Message-ID: <199708101928.MAA22010@palrel3.hp.com> Vincent Beall asks: > I think I follow everything that you and Alan have written, although, it > seems to me that when the angular position of the Earth become the same > as Jupiter, at that point the apparent motion of Jupiter would reverse > in direction. So is the correct time for the beginning of the direct > phase on the 8th or on the 9th at 1:30 in the afternoon? I gave a simplified view to communicate the concept. Actually, it is more complicated because the motions of the planets are elliptical and their angular velocities are different. My ephemeris shows Jupiter going direct on October at 9:38pm PDT. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:31:48 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Titus is right Message-ID: <199708101931.MAA22129@palrel3.hp.com> I must say, Paul, your title kind of caught my eye. I'm not used to hearing that particular phrase too often. "K. Paul Johnson" wrote: > ..in saying that natal retrogrades produce related karma when > the same planets go retrograde Now why did you have to add that qualifier? ;) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 97 17:56:02 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: CWL today, and question Message-ID: <199708102156.RAA14381@leo.vsla.edu> Bart, I agree with you that perhaps today CWL would not act on his drives. In a sense he was the victim of the times he lived in, when there was no recognition of these issues. The question is, who tried to tell whom not to post what on the Internet? I missed the original post about this. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:51:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: In message <33ED3F00.2F41@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > John Algeo has personally assured me that, regardless of any >limitations of my use of the New York Theosophical Society Internet >account, he cannot and will not even suggest that I limit anything I do >with my own account. > > Bart Lidofsky That's nice. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:09:44 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Register for membership Message-ID: Welcome messages to our latest recruit: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Please register me as a member of TI. David Roelofs Thanks, Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:54:17 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Huh? Message-ID: In message <33ED3FD9.2C8A@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> > >> >If the world contains all things theosophical and that includes sexual >> banter, then >> >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at >> >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. >> > >> >A. Safron > > I have personally recommended this list to people at Olcott; I did not >hear a single person say anything negative about this list, although >most did not know about the list one way or another. I wonder why .... > I heard a lot of >positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". Allowed? ALLOWED? Good grief! > AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:04:29 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: CWL today, and question Message-ID: <199708110104.TAA13820@mailmx.micron.net> Paul wrote: >Bart, I agree with you that perhaps today CWL would not act on >his drives. In a sense he was the victim of the times he lived >in, when there was no recognition of these issues. I am perplexed why some think CWL wouldn't have acted on his "drives" if he had lived 50 to 100 years later. Pedophilia tends to disregard societal norms and society's "recognition of these issues." Sexual crimes are alive and well. The only thing I can think that would have possibly stopped CWL is that victims are more vocal today, law enforcement is more aware, and, consequently, CWL may have ended up chowing down on bread and water. Could be I'm missing something - but, again, I fail to see why CWL wouldn't behave today as he did then - even if one receives psychiatric care, pedophilia remains a powerful and devastating disease. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:58:06 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Original Post Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970811065806.006d3408@mail.eden.com> At 12:14 AM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> > >> >If the world contains all things theosophical and that includes sexual >> banter, then >> >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at >> >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. >> > >> >A. Safron > > I have personally recommended this list to people at Olcott; I did not >hear a single person say anything negative about this list, although >most did not know about the list one way or another. I heard a lot of >positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". > > Bart Lidofsky > Is your pamphlet available now? If so can you post it here? ...........MKRamadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:03:34 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Original Post Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970811070334.006deff8@mail.eden.com> At 12:14 AM 8/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> > >> >If the world contains all things theosophical and that includes sexual >> banter, then >> >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at >> >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. >> > >> >A. Safron > > I have personally recommended this list to people at Olcott; I did not >hear a single person say anything negative about this list, although >most did not know about the list one way or another. I heard a lot of >positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". > > Bart Lidofsky Even when I found out about theos-xxxx some years ago, it was not with any help from anyone at Olcott. A member got all the good Karma by faxing me the subscription information at his own personal cost after I casually mentioned my interest in Internet during a phone call. MKRamadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:39:42 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <199708111221.IAA03207@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Huh? > Date: Sunday, August 10, 1997 7:08 PM > > In message <33ED3FD9.2C8A@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >> > > >> >If the world contains all things theosophical and that includes sexual > >> banter, then > >> >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at > >> >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > >> > > >> >A. Safron > > > > I have personally recommended this list to people at Olcott; I did not > >hear a single person say anything negative about this list, although > >most did not know about the list one way or another. > > I wonder why .... > > > I heard a lot of > >positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to > >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". > > Allowed? ALLOWED? Good grief! > > > AB Can we can get you a larger shovel to dig yourself in with? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 10:21:51 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: God's kingdom (fwd) Message-ID: <199708111421.KAA11247@leo.vsla.edu> Thanks to Richard for the stimulus to provide details on the latest thought on the kingdom of God as it appears in the discourse of Jesus, and as it evolved after his death due to social and political developments. Burton Mack, in The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q and Christian Origins, argues that contemporary scholars have unlocked the mystery of Q, the original gospel from which the synoptics borrowed. He discerns three different levels of text which present Jesus and his teachings in different ways. In the original level 1, Jesus is a wandering Cynic sage. Mack summarizes the Cynic worldview, identical to that found in the earliest Jesus sayings, as: "Their task was not to pose as teachers of truths people did not know, but to challenge people to live in accordance with what they did know. They constantly called attention to the accidental nature of social status and the ephemeral rewards of material success. They criticized social structures of hierarchy, domination, and inequity by poking fun at the superficial codes of honor and shame that supported them. They took every opportunity to deflate the egos of the privileged. And they delighted in exposing the ulterior motive of calculated action."(119) The term "kingdom of God" was used in many different ways as the Jesus community evolved. It is mentioned in seven sayings at level one of Q: How fortunate the poor; theirs is God's kingdom. No one who puts his hand to the plow and then looks back is fit for God's kingdom. If you enter a town and they welcome you, eat what is set before you, attend to the sick, and say that "God's kingdom has come near to you." But if you enter a town and they do not welcome you, say "Nevertheless be sure of this, that God's rule has come to you." When you pray, say, "Father, may your kingdom take place..." Make sure of his rule over you, and these things will be yours as well. What is God's kingdom like? It is like a grain of mustard...It is like yeast which a woman hid in three measures of flour. Mack comments, "The first hting to notice is that none of these references paints an apocalyptic view of the world...In each case the rule stands for something that can be accomplished, something that contrasts with the conventional, meriting a change of attitude or behavior worthy of a new vision. God's kingdom can be announced, desired, affirmed, claimed and signaled in a given human exchange. Thus the link between the notion of the rule of God and the pattern of Q's countercultural practices is very, very strong." It was only after the Jewish war and the destruction of the temple that Jesus was reimagined (and the gospel revised) as an apocalyptic prophet, and as founder of a movement whose members were specially favored by God. Mack writes: "Thus the spread of connotation must be kept in mind when encountering the term God's kingdom in Q. The language of the kingdom of God in Q captures precisely the ambiguities involved in the range of connotation from ruling as behavior to ruling as domain: from individual to group, behavior to ethos, practice to conceptual order, human society to divine order. The thought had not yet occurred at the Q1 level, as it did later at the Q2 stage, that the location of God's kingdom was to be found precisely in the social formation of a movement. But it is clear that an overlap had already occurred between (my emphasis) THE CONCEPT OF THE RULE OF GOD AS AN ALTERNATIVE REALM OR WAY OF LIFE AVAILABLE EVERYWHERE TO DARING INDIVIDUALS, on the one hand, and the ETHOS OF THE MOVEMENT AS THE PARTICULAR MANIFESTATION OF GOD'S KINGDOM on the other... THE GOD IN QUESTION IS NOT IDENTIFIED IN TERMS OF ANY ETHNIC OR CULTURAL TRADITION.(p. 127) This fascinating book cannot be summarized by such brief quotes. But I hope it conveys a sense of how an informed Christian can have a view of the kingdom 180 degrees apart from that of Baha'is or fundamentalist Christians. In my view, based on Mack and several other scholars of Christian origins, Jesus was fundamentally critical of all conformity, all social institutions that compel obedience, and in no way can he be considered a precursor of the Baha'i Utopia. (Or of the Islamic shari`a which likewise represents everything Jesus opposed.) Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 10:22:14 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Literalism, inerrantism (fwd) Message-ID: <199708111422.KAA11304@leo.vsla.edu> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > It seems to me that the responses to Julia show the same kind > of variation among ARE members/students of the readings as is > found in Christians as a whole. With the Bible, there is a > large minority that believes it is literally true and > contains no errors. The majority finds it to contain truths > and falsehoods taken literally, but that there are symbolic > meanings in it that are "deeper truths." In the churches, this > makes for a split between "mainstream" and "fundamentalist" > denominations. > > By the same token, some of us see the Cayce readings as being > literally true and free from error in every detail, or lean > strongly in that direction. (You can't be a true blue > inerrantist literalist with the readings since Cayce himself > admitted errors and gave a wide range of reasons that some > readings were less reliable than others.) Others of us, myself > included, believe that not everything in the readings is > literally true but that there is symbolic meaning to be found > even where the literal content is not reliable. > > As we face 1998, I am quite skeptical of the expectations about > a literal return of Jesus, or catastrophic earth changes, or > Atlantean records being found. But for me the value of the > readings is not in their being literally correct about > everything, but in their usefulness as guidance on how to > live-- and by that measure no other body of teaching has been > as satisfying to my soul. > > One good thing about ARE is that it has managed to be a "big > tent" in which the more literalist and more skeptical coexist > without coming to blows (AFAIK). On this list we have > succeeded in presenting different points of view without > getting into heated arguments. After all, it won't be long > before one group will be in a position to say "I told you so," > and none of us really knows for sure which group that will be. > So it behooves us all to respect one another while disagreeing. Good Points by the way also ' found in Buddist etc. ' God Bless - Chris From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 10:46:23 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Ephebophile-- to Kym Message-ID: <199708111446.KAA14867@leo.vsla.edu> Hi Kym, The reason I think CWL might have dealt differently with his drives now is that it wasn't really children he was attracted to, but adolescents as best I can tell from the evidence. And that indicates that sexually, but not psychologically mature teenagers were what appealed to him. Now, living in a society that said all homosexual desire was monstrous, and in which approaching an adult could lead to disastrous consequences, I think perhaps CWL displaced his drives to "safe" targets. That is, adolescents who were relatively powerless and whom he could control. Our society is still pretty hung up on equating youth with sexual desirability. Lust after an 18-year-old, and you're a normal red-blooded American. Lust after a 17-year-old, and you're a perverted monster. Unless you're in a different country with a different age of consent, which can go as low as 14. Don't really know enough about the psychology of all this to answer in detail but I do think pedophiles are quite specifically fixated on prepubescents and it is that group that is absolutely incurable. Those drawn to teenagers are responding to the mixed messages given in our society, and to the power differential that makes them seem "easier." They still do tremendous damage, of course, which is inexcusable in any case. Just speculating. KPJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:18:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: hearing about theos-l Message-ID: <199708111518.KAA06154@proteus.imagiware.com> > Even when I found out about theos-xxxx some years ago, it was not with any > help from anyone at Olcott. A member got all the good Karma by faxing me the > subscription information at his own personal cost after I casually mentioned > my interest in Internet during a phone call. > > MKRamadoss I read about the list in THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST and told others that I knew that might be on the Internet about it at the time. This was in September, 1993, when there were perhaps a dozen participants on the list. Since then the list has grown to 100-to-120 participants and held steady at that level, although there are occasional rounds of personal attachs with a short-term fall off in subscribers, like in the Spring of 1996. Over time, there may be several such theosophical "hangouts" on the Internet, each with its own personality. I don't think that this list, theos-l, is being banished or shunned. My impression is that it's a free-for-all where people can get whatever they like out of it -- anything from help on information being sought to a hunting ground to try out their newly-sharpened claws. The only drawback is that this isn't a good place to learn about Theosophy if someone is new to the subject, since the wide diversity of opinions from "there ain't any such thing" to "my way is enlightened and the people worshiping those dusty old books are deluded" make it hard for people to learn about the core philosophy. I'll mention theos-l to people, but I can understand why some people might not want to. The theos-l list is a good social hangout, and a good soapbox for anyone to stand on and preach their ideas from. And it's a good place for someone with a chip on their shoulders to pick a barroom fight. But some people may want to create, promote, and recommend to others places thah are "a good place to study Theosophy", a different kind of hangout, but equally valid. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:30:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: why beer is better than Jesus Message-ID: <970811132945_1982920879@emout13.mail.aol.com> I got this off another list. Enjoy. When Christian students at Texas A&M University donned pro-abstinence T-shirts bearing the legend "Top 10 Reasons Jesus Is Better Than Beer", Steve Berry of Texas A&M's Agnostic and Atheist Student Group knew how to respond: Top 10 Reasons That Beer Is Better Than Jesus 10. No one will kill you for not drinking Beer. 9. Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex. 8. Beer has never caused a major war. 7. They don't force Beer on minors who can't think for themselves. 6. When you have Beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away. 5. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged or tortured over their brand of Beer. 4. You don't have to wait more than 2,000 years for a second Beer. 3. There are laws saying that Beer labels can't lie to you. 2. You can prove you have a Beer. 1. If you've devoted your life to Beer, there are groups to help you stop. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:35:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <970811133257_-219931984@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-10 20:52:14 EDT, you write: >Allowed? ALLOWED? Good grief! >> >AB Since when do Theosophists need permission to reccommend anything? And who would be so gutless as to ask for it? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:35:08 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: hearing about theos-l Message-ID: <199708111835.MAA21780@mailmx.micron.net> Eldon wrote: >I'll mention theos-l to people, but I can understand why some people >might not want to. The theos-l list is a good social hangout, and >a good soapbox for anyone to stand on and preach their ideas from. >And it's a good place for someone with a chip on their shoulders to >pick a barroom fight. But some people may want to create, promote, >and recommend to others places thah are "a good place to study >Theosophy", a different kind of hangout, but equally valid. Theosophy is much more than book learning - reading the basic philosophy of Theosophy is really only the naked beginning. It is what you do with it that matters - not whether you know what a "Round" or "Root Race" or "Yuga" is. Theos-l is fascinating in that it is peopled by those who have been exposed to Theosophy, and, hence, it reflects Theosophy in action. One can learn so much more about themselves, humanity, and the cosmos in exchanges such as "barroom fights" or listening to someone on "a good soapbox." Careful observation of this list reveals individuals growing, maturing, developing - I've seen people change before my eyes here. I've learned more about Theosophy - doing Theosophy - on this list than I have in the number of books I've read on the subject. Doing Theosophy is much harder than reading about it - it can appear uncivil, formless, chaotic, rowdy, uncultured - being able to peep and perceive through that to comprehend the value of chaos and what it means is the point. 'Tis much more than a good "social hangout." Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:04:24 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: How Businesses Deal Maillist Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970811190424.00efa770@mail.eden.com> Hi One of the issues that has been discussed is the issue of *moderated* and *unmoderated* maillists. Businesses have setup unmoderated maillists to let their customers discuss anything they want to. I saw a msg from one of them which I thought was very interesting and progressive. I am posting it for general info. Mind you Pentax Corporation owns the list and has let the maillist run on its own without any interference at all. May be other organizations may learn from the experience of Pentax and other businesses. ............MKRamadoss ----------------------------------------------------------------- >Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:37:01 -0700 >From: Rob Kurtz >Subject: A Message From PENTAX Marketing Dear Pentax-Discuss Group: Pentax is making this rare appearance to let you know that we do check in from time to time and monitor the Pentax-Discuss Group...most recently the string of messages regarding "Pentax and this list." When we created the Pentax-Discuss Group it was decided that an unmoderated group would be the best way to go. And, we wish it to remain just that...a place for Pentax users and enthusiasts to freely share their experiences and discuss all aspects of Pentax as well as the photographic industry (both good and bad) without interference. In addition, the free flow of information being directed by you, the group users, gives Pentax the opportunity to quietly sit by and listen to what you have to say without intruding and biasing opinions. We should mention though, any information gleaned from our observations is, of course, shared with the appropriate departments/individuals in the company. There is also a legal aspect that colored our decision. At the bottom of each message, there is a notation that states that this "is an unmoderated mailing list and the opinions expressed are not necessarily those of Pentax Corporation". In effect, Pentax cannot be held legally liable for any comments made. We realize that from time to time you may have questions that require a response from Pentax. Please send these inquiries to PentaxInfo@Pentax.com. We will respond to your inquiries promptly. We would like to also say how pleased we are to see the Pentax-Discuss Group flourish and grow. It's wonderful to see how committed to Pentax many of you are and the extent of your knowledge. Thank you for your continued support and enthusiasm. Sincerely, PENTAX Corporation .. Disclaimer: You received this message because you have subscribed to the PENTAX discussion mailing list. Please note that this is an unmoderated mailing list and the opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of Pentax Corporation. You may remove yourself from this list at any time by following the instructions or filling out the interactive form on the mailing list web page: http://www.pentax.com/mlist.htm .. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:04:22 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: hearing about theos-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970811190422.00ef3b38@mail.eden.com> At 11:22 AM 8/11/97 -0400, Eldon B. Tucker wrote: >> Even when I found out about theos-xxxx some years ago, it was not with any >> help from anyone at Olcott. A member got all the good Karma by faxing me the >> subscription information at his own personal cost after I casually mentioned >> my interest in Internet during a phone call. >> >> MKRamadoss > >I read about the list in THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST and told others that I >knew that might be on the Internet about it at the time. This was in >September, 1993, when there were perhaps a dozen participants on the list. > >Since then the list has grown to 100-to-120 participants and held steady >at that level, although there are occasional rounds of personal attachs >with a short-term fall off in subscribers, like in the Spring of 1996. > >Over time, there may be several such theosophical "hangouts" on the >Internet, each with its own personality. > >I don't think that this list, theos-l, is being banished or shunned. >My impression is that it's a free-for-all where people can get whatever >they like out of it -- anything from help on information being sought >to a hunting ground to try out their newly-sharpened claws. The only >drawback is that this isn't a good place to learn about Theosophy if >someone is new to the subject, since the wide diversity of opinions >from "there ain't any such thing" to "my way is enlightened and the >people worshiping those dusty old books are deluded" make it hard >for people to learn about the core philosophy. > >I'll mention theos-l to people, but I can understand why some people >might not want to. The theos-l list is a good social hangout, and >a good soapbox for anyone to stand on and preach their ideas from. >And it's a good place for someone with a chip on their shoulders to >pick a barroom fight. But some people may want to create, promote, >and recommend to others places thah are "a good place to study >Theosophy", a different kind of hangout, but equally valid. > >-- Eldon > Good points and appreciate your response. I have been around theosophy for several decades. And after I signed on to theos-xxxx, I got to know of very interesting historial facts over a two year period that I had not known in several decades. Some of the information I saw here is unobtainable any other source for love or money. That's is one of the areas in which I have found this forum of very unique value. Being an *unmoderated* maillist, has two important inherent unequalled strengths . First is the speed with which the communication is takes place and second is the speed with which responses are obtained from the subscribers. As the size of the subscribers and the volume of traffic increases, these two basic strengths will become more obvious. This is because of the fundamental nature of Interenet, which are speed and openness. Whether anyone choses to recommend the list(s) or not, for whatever real (or political reasons,) it is not going to make or break the list in the long run, because cybertravellers know where the real action is. It is only likely that the *sheep* may be scared of signing on and discussing much of anything due to their *sheepish* mentality due fear of one sort or the other either now on earth or in far distant some future life. Of course they have the freedom of choice like everyone else. Just my 2 cents worth. YMDMV. ...................MKRamadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:39:30 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: hearing about theos-l Message-ID: <199708112336.TAA06266@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Eldon B. Tucker > Subject: hearing about theos-l > Date: Monday, August 11, 1997 10:22 AM > > > Even when I found out about theos-xxxx some years ago, it was not with any > > help from anyone at Olcott. A member got all the good Karma by faxing me the > > subscription information at his own personal cost after I casually mentioned > > my interest in Internet during a phone call. > > > > MKRamadoss > > I read about the list in THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST and told others that I > knew that might be on the Internet about it at the time. This was in > September, 1993, when there were perhaps a dozen participants on the list. So did I. > >snip< > I don't think that this list, theos-l, is being banished or shunned. > My impression is that it's a free-for-all where people can get whatever > they like out of it -- anything from help on information being sought > to a hunting ground to try out their newly-sharpened claws. The only > drawback is that this isn't a good place to learn about Theosophy if > someone is new to the subject, since the wide diversity of opinions > from "there ain't any such thing" to "my way is enlightened and the > people worshiping those dusty old books are deluded" make it hard > for people to learn about the core philosophy. > This is one of the best descriptions of this list that I have ever read and I thank you, Eldon. I've been very surprised that that the doggie thread went on so long. The real story is this. One individual, working at Olcott, practically ordered me not to mention something on theos-l. I thought it was rude and beyond the person's place. I am not revealing the secrets of the Universe here, because I have none. It was something very trivial about the LCC, which most people hardly care about here. It had not even entered into my head to post such a thing, as it was so trivial, yet I was being warned not to do so in advance. As for negative comment, I have heard that also, but this is a rough group and unlike the gentile communiciations that come out of Quest. The issue is, the Internet is a FREE forum and unless you are using it for porn, slander and any number of low-life messages, we are FREE to post as we like. What you really have here, in a lovely nutshell, is CHAOS versus ORDER. Best Wishes, A. SAFron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:25:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: God's kingdom (fwd) Message-ID: In message <199708111421.KAA11247@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >The term "kingdom of God" was used in many different ways as the >Jesus community evolved. As a matter of interest, it is found as "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew's Gospel in the same places as Mark has "Kingdom of God." This would suggest that the different strands of development started very early indeed. Just an aside. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:17:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Pedophiles Message-ID: In message <199708110104.TAA13820@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Could be I'm missing something - but, again, I fail to see why CWL wouldn't >behave today as he did then - even if one receives psychiatric care, >pedophilia remains a powerful and devastating disease. As an aside to this, the UK government are planning a register of convicted pedophiles of around 6,000 names, and new guidelines have been approved to enable genuinely concerned parties to have local access to information about possible danger in the local area from known pedophiles who have a) been released from prison and b) are still considered a potential risk. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:20:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: In message <199708111221.IAA03207@cliff.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >Can we can get you a larger shovel to dig yourself in with? > >A. Safron You really think I need one ... ? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:00:13 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Doggie Diarreha Message-ID: <33f1ef0d.30399394@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron wrote: >many of the posts that go between Tombo and myself, are love banter, as >we have become quite fond of each other. I hate it when I'm the last one to find out how loved I am. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 06:40:56 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Two "Doss"es in TSA Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970812114056.00d001e8@mail.eden.com> Hi There are two members of TSA who go by the nick name "Doss". One is William Doss McDavid, who is the well known TSA Lecturer and author and currently the District Director of TSA. The other is M K "Doss" Ramadoss, an ordinary member, holding no office and a novice in Theosophy, no lecturer, no author and an active participant on theos-l. Both of us live in San Antonio and members of San Antonio TS Lodge/Branch and have known each other for a long time. Most on this list know about the "two" "Doss"es. But still in the minds of some, especially those new to the list, there appears to be some confusion. I would like to clarify this and it appears I may have to post this from time to time. MK "Doss" Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:29:18 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Pedophiles Message-ID: <199708121227.IAA28915@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Pedophiles > Date: Monday, August 11, 1997 6:44 PM > > In message <199708110104.TAA13820@mailmx.micron.net>, > kymsmith@micron.net writes > >Could be I'm missing something - but, again, I fail to see why CWL wouldn't > >behave today as he did then - even if one receives psychiatric care, > >pedophilia remains a powerful and devastating disease. > > As an aside to this, the UK government are planning a register of > convicted pedophiles of around 6,000 names, and new guidelines have been > approved to enable genuinely concerned parties to have local access to > information about possible danger in the local area from known > pedophiles who have a) been released from prison and b) are still > considered a potential risk. In the USA, local town and cities are also registering convicted pediophiles, who are obligated to make it known where they live in a a town. Too many children have not only been abused but murdered. Some pedofiles are run out of town, whether they are innocent or guilty. Just the fear is enough to get the populace to send them on a one-way ticket. >From what I know psychiatric care is long, difficult and expensive. Videos of offenders in support groups say they are afraid they will do it again because they feel they have no control. Upteen years later, we are still struggling with this problem and probably have years to go to unlock the reason why these peoplle committ these acts. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:41:29 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Doggie Doo Again Message-ID: >> >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > >> > > >> >A. Safron > > > > I have personally recommended this list to people at Olcott; I did not > >hear a single person say anything negative about this list, although > >most did not know about the list one way or another. > > I wonder why .... > > > I heard a lot of > >positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to > >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". > > Allowed? ALLOWED? Good grief! > > > AB Can we can get you a larger shovel to dig yourself in with? Keith: I don't know where all this is really heading, but I think it has to do with the fact that theos-l was created to encourange free and open thinking and speech in an unmoderated forum, Olcott has it own agenda to control and protect ( which is perfectly OK and understandable) their version of the ANCIENT WISDOM which really belongs to everyone and no one. It is everywhere like the air we breathe if we can only open the higher vehicle/chackras to breath of inspiration ( from the word to breathe). Organizations and organized religions are momuments that do every thing they can to PREVENT a mystical/spiritual/religious experience. They definitely want to keep the lid on a "sell" it. Do you remember the early days of the INTERNET before the web. It was so exciting. It is becoming more organized and commercial everyday. I think less and less people use the usenet group because the web has on-line chat and then there is IRC etc. (am I wrong??) A lot has been gained, but the pioneering days seeming to be passing before I very cyber-eyes. (a small tear ;>) Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:55:31 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: >> At one point, when preparing for a lecture on hypnotism, I researched everything Blavatsky said about Satan and Satanism (it was difficult, since Blavatsky uses two aspects of Satan, one being the Promethean aspect of the god who gives a forbidden gift to Humanity at great self-sacrifice). Her definition of Satanism, from my readings, appears to be one who rejects the spiritual aspect of reality in favor of the material aspect. The "Black Brotherhood", on the other hand, are those who reject the higher aspect of humanity in favor of the ego. Keith: I don't know how many time I have been told by well meaning and often very learned theosophists that we must never mention the Brothers of the Shadow because you make a link with them of the astral plane and they may influence your meditation or whatever. Well, Jung has a lot to say about all this and I think it is interesting he used the term SHADOW to talk about the little debil in us all. The Shadow is not a being but an archetype or aspect of our unconscious and it has amazing power to control us at just the wrong time. It is waiting for that moment when the ego (small e) is tired of repression and other defensives and lets it all out. Thus many Satanists consider Satan more a principle. The cabalaists seem to have an evil angel for everyone of the sephira. Metatron has his Samael or whatever, the attibutions are from Astoroth and Lilith and the whole crew. I think 2000 years and a lot of ink have been use to justify the way of God to man ( a la Milton). If God, is omniscent and omnipotent, why doesn't he just stop all this evil rebellion mess and reinstate paradise. I think theosophy, points to a grand drama, taking larger cycles of time than we can imagine. G-d like comedy and tragedy and HE/SHE has all the time in existence. Put that with your doogie doo! :) Namste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 21:03:51 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Future of Theosophy Message-ID: I think the current Theosophical organizations (all most all, except the well-intentioned but still new TI) point to the past. They basically are libraries and archives. I was shocked to hear that Adyar was involved in psychic research and investigating the powers latent in man (is this true?)> I think many Americans are open to the ideas of evolving humanity, but the spiritual discipline is available only to the few or the very, very, willing, in today's fast paced, Jack in the Box cuisine, world. Is there a nucleus of humanity guided today by the Masters, with the constant spiritual disipline to continue the work into the future. Is this the Esoteric Society? Since theos-l is less than doo, somehow I don't think that question will be answered directly. Many ashrams and now mystical Judiasm and Tantric retereats seem to be in favor. I guess like the MEN IN BLACK, they are working undercover to protect us from the Brothers of the Shadow. Sometimes I wonder who is winning? Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:46:57 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Pedophiles Message-ID: In message <199708121227.IAA28915@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >>From what I know psychiatric care is long, difficult and expensive. >Videos of offenders in support groups say they are afraid they >will do it again because they feel they have no control. > >Upteen years later, we are still struggling with this problem and >probably have years to go to unlock the reason why these >peoplle committ these acts. Some offenders are known to be willing to accept surgical or chemical castration to more or less eliminate their sex drive(s). I heard of one case of chemical (hormone) treatment being withdrawn from an offender who begged for it to be restored, as he knew he would offend again otherwise. It wasn't restored, and he offended again. This was a few years back, so I canot quote chapter and verse, but I expect some have heard similar stories. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:43:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Future of Theosophy Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Is there a nucleus of humanity guided today by the Masters, with the constant >spiritual disipline to continue the work into the future. Put it this way: There is a nucleus of Higher Intelligences (call them "masters" if you will) who are eternally prepared to guide such members of humanity who are able to approach them. The composition of this "group" varies, but appears to be able to handle all spiritual and esoteric "traditions." > Is this the >Esoteric Society? No. Though what do you mean by the Esoteric Society? > Since theos-l is less than doo, somehow I don't think that >question will be answered directly. Many ashrams and now mystical Judiasm and >Tantric retereats seem to be in favor. Mystical Judaism has always been "in favor" and has the longest available pedigree known in the West, though no doubt if we asked in the right place we could get am impressive lineage from the East (though Judaism comes from the East!). Certainly there is a known line of teachers of the Sankhya philosophy (or religious philosophy) but just how far back it goes is not clear right now. In the 60's, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi intitiation invoked the individual names of a great many gurus of the Sankhya/Shankaracharya line. All of us who were part of it heard them - the names, that is. Some of us were privileged to receive some of the Teaching from that source, though its essence is not unique to any "line of succession" so far as I have been able to tell. The Kabalist (Judaic) version is more or less identical; only the language is different. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:57:07 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again Message-ID: <199708131225.IAA16319@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > Subject: Doggie Doo Again > Date: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 3:47 PM > > Do you remember the early days of the INTERNET before the web. It was so > exciting. It is becoming more organized and commercial everyday. I think > less and less people use the usenet group because the web has on-line chat and > then there is IRC etc. (am I wrong??) > > A lot has been gained, but the pioneering days seeming to be passing before I > very cyber-eyes. (a small tear ;>) > I use the web a lot for research. I look at university papers, reports, medical information, weather, on-line magazines. Seems to me that that's what the web was supposed to be in the first-place: somewhere you could get information at the click of a button. The commercial guys got all excited and thought they could start selling things off the web, but that's been a disappointment. I read that no one wants to buy cars or appliances off the web that they can't really see. Small things or books are OK, but that's about it. The web as a real selling tool hasn't gone very well. Then there's the issue of security. I know I'v been ripped off on the web. Then there's the "home" page thing where you can view all sort of trivia about someone's life, especially the college kids. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:58:07 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970813125807.00f2f99c@mail.eden.com> At 08:25 AM 8/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: JOSEPH PRICE >> Subject: Doggie Doo Again >> Date: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 3:47 PM >> > >> Do you remember the early days of the INTERNET before the web. It was so >> exciting. It is becoming more organized and commercial everyday. I think >> less and less people use the usenet group because the web has on-line chat and >> then there is IRC etc. (am I wrong??) >> >> A lot has been gained, but the pioneering days seeming to be passing before I >> very cyber-eyes. (a small tear ;>) >> >I use the web a lot for research. I look at university papers, reports, medical >information, weather, on-line magazines. Seems to me that that's what the web >was supposed to be in the first-place: somewhere you could get information at >the click of a button. The commercial guys got all excited and thought they >could start selling things off the web, but that's been a disappointment. I read >that no one wants to buy cars or appliances off the web that they can't really >see. Small things or books are OK, but that's about it. The web as a real >selling tool hasn't gone very well. Then there's the issue of security. I know >I'v been ripped off on the web. Then there's the "home" page thing where >you can view all sort of trivia about someone's life, especially the college kids. > >A. Safron I believe that Internet is still in its infancy and still has got a long way to mature. Much of the maturity is going to come from the generation which has grownup with computers. Even in the commercial area, it has proven its effectiveness. Most of the large and small companies use Internet WWW and e-mail to provide customer support 7 days of the week and 24 hours of the day, world-wide. Of course I do get a lot of "junk" mail peddling anything you can think of. I think this is the price one has to pay. Knock on the wood, I am yet to be ripped off the Internet. As a matter of routine, sensitive financially related info such as credit card numbers, I do not send them via Internet. I use FAX for such info. I have found that telephone, fax, e-mail -- all of these have their place in communications. Organizations, especially ones which are in the area of "religion" and "spiritual" arena are really slow to use Internet. One of them may be due to the fact that most of them are controlled by older generation who did not grow up with computers. The second problem is that they are used to control communication with their faithful so that they told the faithful only those things which they think the faithful need to know. I recently was told the joke -- about how the faithful are handled -- just like mushrooms. The mushrooms are kept in the dark and that is where they grow well. So keep the faithful in the dark and feed little crumbs to keep them grow in the dark. Internet is changing all this. The free communication and speed of communication is something that it is going to take time to get used to. As I have said before, Internet is a juggernaut and is unstoppable. Doing business in the traditional way is going to go away. ..............MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:31:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Future of Theosophy Message-ID: <970813152955_-1706184300@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-12 17:09:57 EDT, you write: >I guess like the MEN IN BLACK, they are working undercover to protect us from > >the Brothers of the Shadow. Sometimes I wonder who is winning? > We are. Of course, now the big question is, "Who is 'We'?" Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:33:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: <970813153157_-636838897@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-12 20:44:45 EDT, you write: > If God, is omniscent and omnipotent, why doesn't he just >stop all this evil rebellion mess and reinstate paradise. > 'Cause he ain't either of the above. He's just a minor demiurge who visited the Middle East and stayed out in the sun too long. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:38:45 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again Message-ID: <199708140009.UAA22535@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again > Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 8:00 AM > > Organizations, especially ones which are in the area of "religion" and > "spiritual" arena are really slow to use Internet. One of them may be due to > the fact that most of them are controlled by older generation who did not > grow up with computers. The second problem is that they are used to control > communication with their faithful so that they told the faithful only those > things which they think the faithful need to know. I recently was told the > joke -- about how the faithful are handled -- just like mushrooms. The > mushrooms are kept in the dark and that is where they grow well. So keep the > faithful in the dark and feed little crumbs to keep them grow in the dark. > Internet is changing all this. The free communication and speed of > communication is something that it is going to take time to get used to. > > As I have said before, Internet is a juggernaut and is unstoppable. Doing > business in the traditional way is going to go away. > > ..............MKR I really appreciated this post, Doss. There's a lot of truth there. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:53:26 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <33F28136.A89@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > As others have said, that if I were to have been there, I would have been there. > However, I know there are others that have gained a great deal from the Co-Masons > and having done so, encouraged me to join. Sometimes one group may > be for one person and not for the other. The Co-Masons are basically > 7th Ray, while the LCC is 2nd and 6th Ray. Those with those predominant > rays in their charts would naturally be attracted to those organizations. > We all can't be everywhere and if we try, we spread ourselves so thin, > we are worthless. I am highly allergic to ritual (I work as a consultant largely because I can't stand going to the same job for too long), and therefore the co-Masons are not for me (although I have been highly encouraged by both Masons and co-Masons, as much as they are permitted, to join; I COULD go into one of those 1-day Mason programs, and become a "knife-and-fork" Mason, but have too much respect for the groups to join under what I would consider false pretenses). I do, however, think that the groups have something important to offer, and recommend them to others (co-Masonry when available, Masonry otherwise, although I dislike the gender-bias of the group). I dislike the gender-bias of the LCC even more, because they should know better. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:02:06 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Creed and Cult Message-ID: <33F2833E.1642@sprynet.com> > But the TS *HAS* a creed and *IS* a cult :-( It has a doctrine, not a creed. I would, however, be interested in seeing a definition of "cult" from a proper dictionary (note that ANYBODY can call their dictionary, "Webster's", but certainly on the acceptable list are Oxford, Merriem-Webster, Random House, and The American Language. > Reading the literature makes that crystal clear id the reader is > objective. Most TS members believe (for example) in reincarnation > because the TS *teaches* it. Etc. ....... Well, actually, my belief in reincarnation is because the TS describes it in a way that makes sense to me. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:04:21 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Fractals Message-ID: <33F283C5.470B@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > Your spelling of the Name is consistent with some Jewish practice, esp. > 'Hasidic. Is this coincidence? It is a Jewish custom, on the basis of the 2nd commandment, that certain specific procedures be used for the disposal of any book or work on which the name of God is inscribed (usually Bibles or prayerbooks). To avoid having a regular piece of paper bound by those restrictions, observant Jews spell God "G-d". Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:27:29 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Crank call Message-ID: <33F28931.51B1@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Bart Lidofsky > > Subject: Re: Crank call > > Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 4:28 PM > > > > A. Safron wrote: > > > > > Perhaps this is the reason why membership is plummeting in the > > > TS organizations. > > > > You and I have different defintions of the word "plummeting". > > > Dear Bartsky, > > I don't remember the original post at all, but here's a definition of "plummeting" > which we may use to discuss. > > plum·met > verb, intransitive > plum·met·ed, plum·met·ing, plum·mets > 1. To fall straight down; plunge. > 2. To decline suddenly and steeply: Stock prices plummeted. > [Middle English plomet, from Old French, ball of lead, diminutive of plom, plomb, sounding > lead, from Latin plumbum.] I don't think that either definition applies to the reducing membership in the TS, which seems to be more on the slow but sure side (according to some, we are just on the wrong side of a sine curve). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:34:22 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Original Post Message-ID: <33F28ACE.3883@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Bart Lidofsky > > Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Original Post > > Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 11:14 PM > > > > ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > > > > > > >If the world contains all things theosophical and that includes sexual > > > banter, then > > > >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at > > > >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > > > > > > > >A. Safron > > > > I have personally recommended this list to people at Olcott; I did not > > hear a single person say anything negative about this list, although > > most did not know about the list one way or another... > > Are you calling me a liar? Have you spoken to every single person that I > have at the same time and place? I doubt this. I haven't, and neither have you. Therefore, both of our experiences are useful in enabling others to come to their own conclusions. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:35:45 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: CWL today, and question Message-ID: <33F28B21.7CCB@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > Bart, I agree with you that perhaps today CWL would not act on > his drives. In a sense he was the victim of the times he lived > in, when there was no recognition of these issues. > > The question is, who tried to tell whom not to post what on the > Internet? I missed the original post about this. I think it was A. who was told, but I am not sure. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:52:38 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814055238.00765b3c@mail.eden.com> At 08:09 PM 8/13/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again >> Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 8:00 AM >> >> Organizations, especially ones which are in the area of "religion" and >> "spiritual" arena are really slow to use Internet. One of them may be due to >> the fact that most of them are controlled by older generation who did not >> grow up with computers. The second problem is that they are used to control >> communication with their faithful so that they told the faithful only those >> things which they think the faithful need to know. I recently was told the >> joke -- about how the faithful are handled -- just like mushrooms. The >> mushrooms are kept in the dark and that is where they grow well. So keep the >> faithful in the dark and feed little crumbs to keep them grow in the dark. >> Internet is changing all this. The free communication and speed of >> communication is something that it is going to take time to get used to. >> >> As I have said before, Internet is a juggernaut and is unstoppable. Doing >> business in the traditional way is going to go away. >> >> ..............MKR > >I really appreciated this post, Doss. There's a lot of truth there. > >A. Safron Thanks for the comment. It would be of immense value if each one of us take time and interest and come up with creative ways to use Internet to make T/theosophy available to every man, woman, and child and hope it will affect them in a way that will make the world we all live in is better. Each one of us is very important and all it would take is a couple of innovative ideas that can affect the world. Let us all try. .............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:52:39 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814055239.00767738@mail.eden.com> At 03:34 PM 8/13/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-08-12 20:44:45 EDT, you write: > >> If God, is omniscent and omnipotent, why doesn't he just >>stop all this evil rebellion mess and reinstate paradise. >> >> > >'Cause he ain't either of the above. He's just a minor demiurge who visited >the Middle East and stayed out in the sun too long. > >Chuck the Heretic > Good question. We have taken for granted, the omniscent and omnipotent God as a belief. It is time to examine it like every other belief. BTW, a belief in God is a requirement of all religions, and is a non negotiable requirement of Masonic organization, including Co-Masonic Movement which is very subtly pushed by some of the TS leaders. ...................mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:52:41 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814055241.00768f3c@mail.eden.com> At 08:25 AM 8/13/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: JOSEPH PRICE >> Subject: Doggie Doo Again >> Date: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 3:47 PM >> > >> Do you remember the early days of the INTERNET before the web. It was so >> exciting. It is becoming more organized and commercial everyday. I think >> less and less people use the usenet group because the web has on-line chat and >> then there is IRC etc. (am I wrong??) >> >> A lot has been gained, but the pioneering days seeming to be passing before I >> very cyber-eyes. (a small tear ;>) >> >I use the web a lot for research. I look at university papers, reports, medical -------------->>> clip <<<<<<<<<<<<--------------------- > >A. Safron I have use e-mail extensively and with great effect and real savings of my money and saved some trees as well in the process. What is ironic and interesting is that with all the talk about Internet, TSA is still very very behind on using e-mail, even though they have had e-mail much longer than myself. For example in the last 3 years, I may have received a handful of e-mail msgs from TSA, while I have received numerous laser printed generated hard copy letters by US Mail from TSA. These letters are laser printed on TSA letter head on expensive paper (which even I could not afford and do not use in my business correspondence with very very affluent clients) and preprinted envelopes in same type of expensive paper (which I could not afford.) I know first hand the relative costs of paper because I spend my money every time I buy paper and envelopes and stamps. May be with all the money coming from TSA coffers, it may not appear significant and may not matter, especially with the downward trend of membership and closing of lodges and selling off properties, there will be lot more money in the bank to spend. When the current generation which has grown up in computer age finally reach the top of the TSA hierarchy -- which will be a quarter or half century -- TSA will come up to speed in using e-mail (because US mail may be obsolete for normal correspondence due to cost and speed) and by that time most of us may be dead and buried/cremated or otherwise disposed off. ..................mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:52:43 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Future of Theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814055243.0076ad68@mail.eden.com> At 05:09 PM 8/12/97 -0400, JOSEPH PRICE wrote: >I think the current Theosophical organizations (all most all, except the >well-intentioned but still new TI) point to the past. They basically are >libraries and archives. What a wise statement. With Internet, all the libraries and archives can be put on line and hard copies printed on demand at your home. This may make the organization as we know it obsolete. We will just have some computer/library experts who will maintain the libraries and archives. .................mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:00:04 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814060004.00f19300@mail.eden.com> At 11:54 PM 8/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >A. Safron wrote: >> As others have said, that if I were to have been there, I would have been there. >> However, I know there are others that have gained a great deal from the Co-Masons >> and having done so, encouraged me to join. Sometimes one group may >> be for one person and not for the other. The Co-Masons are basically >> 7th Ray, while the LCC is 2nd and 6th Ray. Those with those predominant >> rays in their charts would naturally be attracted to those organizations. >> We all can't be everywhere and if we try, we spread ourselves so thin, >> we are worthless. > > I am highly allergic to ritual (I work as a consultant largely because >I can't stand going to the same job for too long), and therefore the >co-Masons are not for me (although I have been highly encouraged by both >Masons and co-Masons, as much as they are permitted, to join; I COULD go >into one of those 1-day Mason programs, and become a "knife-and-fork" >Mason, but have too much respect for the groups to join under what I >would consider false pretenses). I do, however, think that the groups >have something important to offer, and recommend them to others >(co-Masonry when available, Masonry otherwise, although I dislike the >gender-bias of the group). I dislike the gender-bias of the LCC even >more, because they should know better. > > Bart Lidofsky I saw an interesting account of the famous Ernest Wood after he joined the Co-Masonry. Soon I will post it and I am sure many will enjoy reading it. ...............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:03:47 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Creed and Cult Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814060347.00f0efdc@mail.eden.com> At 12:03 AM 8/14/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >> objective. Most TS members believe (for example) in reincarnation >> because the TS *teaches* it. Etc. ....... > > Well, actually, my belief in reincarnation is because the TS describes >it in a way that makes sense to me. > > Bart Lidofsky To me it is good working hypothesis based on what I see in every day life. ...............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:14:10 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: <199708141234.IAA08897@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart > Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 2:34 PM > > In a message dated 97-08-12 20:44:45 EDT, you write: > > > If God, is omniscent and omnipotent, why doesn't he just > >stop all this evil rebellion mess and reinstate paradise. > > > 'Cause he ain't either of the above. He's just a minor demiurge who visited > the Middle East and stayed out in the sun too long. > > Chuck the Heretic Because He/She is having too much fun watching the show. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:06:54 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Internet and TS Message-ID: In message <33F28B21.7CCB@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >> The question is, who tried to tell whom not to post what on the >> Internet? I missed the original post about this. > > I think it was A. who was told, but I am not sure. If by "A" you mean A. SAFRON, then this is the most recent suggestion, though I think she put it differently from this. If by "A" you mean me, then I was kicked off my Lodge committee for *participating* in Internet activities and promoting Theosophy International's approach to the three objects. This, BTW, is exactly how *cults* behave - see other post. I can post the letter of dismissal again if you like. They even considered throwing me out of the UK TS altogether. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:20:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: <1nrbiSAnIy8zEwxj@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970814055239.00767738@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >We have taken for granted, the omniscent and omnipotent God as a belief. It >is time to examine it like every other belief. In some parts of the East (and its languages) the perception of God is one of the fact of Eternal Being and the Unity of Life. Thus those who understand God in this way (and not as a "person") think that people who do not believe in God are crazy, as the existence of God is self- evident. Unlike modern Western Christians, some such may well argue with God directly (to no avail of course, but simply to express their anger at some clearly unjust event in society. Even Jesus said we have to take heaven by storm! Older Xtian mystics advocated similar approaches, telling contemplatives to keep on pestering God until they got a sensible response .... > >BTW, a belief in God is a requirement of all religions, and is a non >negotiable requirement of Masonic organization, including Co-Masonic >Movement which is very subtly pushed by some of the TS leaders. Yep. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:13:09 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: G-d Message-ID: <4HzYqMAFCy8zEwyM@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33F283C5.470B@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> Your spelling of the Name is consistent with some Jewish practice, esp. >> 'Hasidic. Is this coincidence? > > It is a Jewish custom, on the basis of the 2nd commandment, that >certain specific procedures be used for the disposal of any book or work >on which the name of God is inscribed (usually Bibles or prayerbooks). >To avoid having a regular piece of paper bound by those restrictions, >observant Jews spell God "G-d". > > Bart Lidofsky Yes, I know. My post was addressed to another subscriber, who, SFAIK, is not Jewish. I know a 'Hasid living in Brookline, Mass. who is a confirmed Kabbalist and uses "G-d" as a matter of course. From him I was given my copy of ~Likutei Amarim-Tanya~ ("Collected from sacred books and from Scribes of Supernal Holiness, whose souls are in Eden.") AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:24:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Not doggie doo. Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970814055238.00765b3c@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >It would be of immense value if each one of us take time and interest and >come up with creative ways to use Internet to make T/theosophy available to >every man, woman, and child and hope it will affect them in a way that will >make the world we all live in is better. Each one of us is very important >and all it would take is a couple of innovative ideas that can affect the >world. Let us all try. Let's use what we already have! Below is a standard 'sig' file promoting Theosophy International, which has kinks to other Theosophical web sites. Martin Euser, when he posts to the list, also has a similar 'sig' file. There are other sites (such as TUP online) and list subscribers could create a sig file for some of these perhaps? You yourself have recommeded various URL's in the past - why not ad your own favorite site as a 'sig' file to your posts? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:02:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Creed and Cult Message-ID: In message <33F2833E.1642@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >> But the TS *HAS* a creed and *IS* a cult :-( > > It has a doctrine, not a creed. I would, however, be interested in >seeing a definition of "cult" from a proper dictionary (note that >ANYBODY can call their dictionary, "Webster's", but certainly on the >acceptable list are Oxford, Merriem-Webster, Random House, and The >American Language. Dictionary definitions and public perceptions rarely match. The *reality* of the TS is that it, in my extensive UK experience (like you, I have been a Lodge president) *behaves* like a cult, and teaches *as if* its teaching is a belief system (or creed). > >> Reading the literature makes that crystal clear id the reader is >> objective. Most TS members believe (for example) in reincarnation >> because the TS *teaches* it. Etc. ....... > > Well, actually, my belief in reincarnation is because the TS describes >it in a way that makes sense to me. To each his or her own. It makes nonsense to me. > Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:47:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: Alan: It may be time to re-post the full letter. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <33F28B21.7CCB@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >> The question is, who tried to tell whom not to post what on the > >> Internet? I missed the original post about this. > > > > I think it was A. who was told, but I am not sure. > > If by "A" you mean A. SAFRON, then this is the most recent suggestion, > though I think she put it differently from this. > > If by "A" you mean me, then I was kicked off my Lodge committee for > *participating* in Internet activities and promoting Theosophy > International's approach to the three objects. This, BTW, is exactly > how *cults* behave - see other post. > > I can post the letter of dismissal again if you like. They even > considered throwing me out of the UK TS altogether. > > Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:49:02 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <33F3450D.4F7C@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > I heard a lot of > >positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to > >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". > > Allowed? ALLOWED? Good grief! I may not have made it sufficiently clear that I was writing it FOR the TSA, as an official publication. I am certain even you would agree that an organization has the right to decide what does or does not go into their official publications. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:57:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > > I heard a lot of > > >positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to > > >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". > > > > Allowed? ALLOWED? Good grief! > > I may not have made it sufficiently clear that I was writing it FOR the > TSA, as an official publication. I am certain even you would agree that > an organization has the right to decide what does or does not go into > their official publications. > > Bart Lidofsky I think that Theosophy World is a *moderated* one and fits right into the current philosophy of TSA. Is it going to be sold by TPH? If so what is the price? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:58:23 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: CWL today, and question Message-ID: <33F3473F.2418@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > >Bart, I agree with you that perhaps today CWL would not act on > >his drives. In a sense he was the victim of the times he lived > >in, when there was no recognition of these issues. > > I am perplexed why some think CWL wouldn't have acted on his "drives" if he > had lived 50 to 100 years later. Pedophilia tends to disregard societal > norms and society's "recognition of these issues." Sexual crimes are alive > and well. The only thing I can think that would have possibly stopped CWL > is that victims are more vocal today, law enforcement is more aware, and, > consequently, CWL may have ended up chowing down on bread and water. > > Could be I'm missing something - but, again, I fail to see why CWL wouldn't > behave today as he did then - even if one receives psychiatric care, > pedophilia remains a powerful and devastating disease. First of all, one thing that kind of got lost in the quotes is that I made this statement conditional on whether or not Leadbeater was truly guilty. Second of all, I am one of those strange people who believe that human beings have the capability of NOT acting on their desires. Just because someone may be a pedophile does not mean that they will molest children; merely that they have a desire to do so. Actions based on desire are based on a number of factors: Self control, morality of the action, social acceptability of the action, legality of the action, and the possibility of keeping the action private. I believe that, in terms of what we now know to be child molestation, those factors, except for the matter of self-control, were different for a man in the early 20th century than they are today. I was hoping that, even if he were guilty then, even if he was a pedophile, Leadbeater would have a better understanding of the harm that sex can do to children, or at least a greater fear of the consequences such actions would bring, to keep his desires under control. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:01:49 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Original Post Message-ID: <33F3480D.44CD@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > Is your pamphlet available now? If so can you post it here? Only the first draft is ready. It is being expanded, and it should have been ready by now. Unfortunately, literally the day after I returned from Wheaton, I was called out of town for several weeks a telecommunications project to make the Justice Department happy with Bell Atlantic. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:13:49 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <33F34ADD.A81@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Since when do Theosophists need permission to reccommend anything? And who > would be so gutless as to ask for it? When a Theosophist is doing something in someone else's name, then s/he had better ask permission. If permission is not granted for something important, then the Theosophist can simply stop doing the action, or do it in their own name. If you have a problem with this, consider: if someone was thinking of writing threatening letters to the President of the United States, and wanted to sign your name to them, would you want them to ask your permission first? Would you have a problem if they sent them without your permission? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:22:29 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Pedophiles Message-ID: <33F34CE5.77A0@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > As an aside to this, the UK government are planning a register of > convicted pedophiles of around 6,000 names, and new guidelines have been Note that these are: A) Pedophiles who could not control their behavior and, B) Ones who went far enough to get caught and convicted (not an easy task). Pedophiles, as well as many other criminals, who do not have enough self-control to avoid committing the crime, getting caught and getting convicted once will frequently do it again. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:34:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: <970814143417_772913246@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-14 01:55:48 EDT, you write: >BTW, a belief in God is a requirement of all religions, The good Buddhist may argue with you on that one. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:38:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <970814143717_606642015@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-14 13:51:56 EDT, you write: > I may not have made it sufficiently clear that I was writing it FOR the >TSA, as an official publication. I am certain even you would agree that >an organization has the right to decide what does or does not go into >their official publications. Ok, that explains it. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:47:25 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <33F352BD.1482@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > If by "A" you mean A. SAFRON, then this is the most recent suggestion, I did; I KNOW your first name. > If by "A" you mean me, then I was kicked off my Lodge committee for > *participating* in Internet activities and promoting Theosophy > International's approach to the three objects. If that is true, then I think that you were wronged (this has nothing to do with my agreeing with what you say, merely your right to say it. After all, I think it was wrong for Alice Bailey to have been tossed, and I dislike her intensely). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:40:43 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again Message-ID: <199708141855.OAA26652@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again > Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 12:55 AM > > For example in the last 3 years, I may have received a handful of e-mail > msgs from TSA, while I have received numerous laser printed generated hard > copy letters by US Mail from TSA. These letters are laser printed on TSA > letter head on expensive paper (which even I could not afford and do not use > in my business correspondence with very very affluent clients) and > preprinted envelopes in same type of expensive paper (which I could not > afford.) I know first hand the relative costs of paper because I spend my > money every time I buy paper and envelopes and stamps. > Perhaps they are harking back to the days of HPB, CWL and Annie Besant, where people thought nothing of dressing in formal clothes for the Annual Meeting. Maybe the paper is being donated to them? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:46:12 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Crank call Message-ID: <199708141855.OAA26658@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Crank call > Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 11:28 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > > > ---------- > > > From: Bart Lidofsky > > > Subject: Re: Crank call > > > Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 4:28 PM > > > > > > A. Safron wrote: > > > > > > > Perhaps this is the reason why membership is plummeting in the > > > > TS organizations. > > > > > > You and I have different defintions of the word "plummeting". > > > > > Dear Bartsky, > > > > I don't remember the original post at all, but here's a definition of "plummeting" > > which we may use to discuss. > > > > plum·met > > verb, intransitive > > plum·met·ed, plum·met·ing, plum·mets > > 1. To fall straight down; plunge. > > 2. To decline suddenly and steeply: Stock prices plummeted. > > [Middle English plomet, from Old French, ball of lead, diminutive of plom, plomb, sounding > > lead, from Latin plumbum.] > > I don't think that either definition applies to the reducing membership > in the TS, which seems to be more on the slow but sure side (according > to some, we are just on the wrong side of a sine curve). > Pehaps the word "plummeting" was used in exaggeration. On second thought, it sounds more like something like a description of the stock market. I wonder if it would be possible to get the membership number for each section and branch and compare it to last year. After accessing it, we could discuss what is going right or going right. Just a thought. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:52:37 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199708141855.OAA26664@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version > Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 10:54 PM > > I am highly allergic to ritual (I work as a consultant largely because > I can't stand going to the same job for too long), and therefore the > co-Masons are not for meI do, however, think that the groups > have something important to offer, and recommend them to others > (co-Masonry when available, Masonry otherwise, although I dislike the > gender-bias of the group). I dislike the gender-bias of the LCC even > more, because they should know better. They're clinging to the past. At the last LCC synod, the elevation of women to higher posiitions was discussed, but voted down. IMHO, this will come to pass anyway as the older generations move onto the higher planes and the younger members make the necessary changes to suit the times. Equality is inevitable - we are entering the Aquarian Age and those energies are influencing everyone. A. SAfron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:45:49 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970814144549.007de2d0@imagiware.com> At 02:35 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-08-14 01:55:48 EDT, you write: > >>BTW, a belief in God is a requirement of all religions, > >The good Buddhist may argue with you on that one. > >Chuck the Heretic > It can be argued either way. One can say "there is no God" because there's no supreme "big daddy" looking over everything, everywhere, because no matter how big you make a being there are far bigger schemes of existence where he is a small fry. On the other hand, one can argue that there's a transcendental order behind the apparent randomness of external life, an order that goes beyond the physical (and non-physical beings). This Order makes itself known thought high spiritual beings that cooperate with it, and is known under different names including the Tao. This Order goes beyond the manifest/unmanifest, chaos/cosmos, physical/immaterial splits, and beyond any duality we may experience in life. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:58:05 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970814145805.007de2d0@imagiware.com> Doss: >I think that Theosophy World is a *moderated* one and fits right into >the current philosophy of TSA. It seems funny to speak of a magazine as "moderated". A better term is "edited". The editing is to insure some minimum of quality of materials, to add consistent formatting, to package the materials in about the same number of pages/month, and to include a cross-section of materials of interest. The selection of materials is subjective, as is true of any editing, but it's perfectly fine for a magazine to have a particular focus and personality. The associated discussion list is currently unmoderated (and has been since it started in June 1996). Hopefully moderation won't ever be necessary. The purpose of the list is more for study and sharing of information, and personal attacks and one-like small talk messages are discouraged. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:36:26 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: hearing about theos-l Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970814153626.007e0660@imagiware.com> Kym: >Theosophy is much more than book learning - reading the basic philosophy of >Theosophy is really only the naked beginning. True, but it depends on *what* books you read and if that reading stops at brain-mind study of arbitrary metaphysical assertions or continues until it penetrates to what might be called "mystery teachings" what you get out of the books. We need to awaken higher faculties than what we normally use to read and study books. > It is what you do with it that matters - not whether you know what a >"Round" or "Root Race" or "Yuga" is. This is the karma yoga approach. But even with this approach it is necessary to learn symbolic thought and other faculties *of knowing*. And because everything is contained in everything else, if you really knew about Rounds or Root Races you'd have a good grasp of the rest of life, including everyday events in the external world. > Theos-l is fascinating in that it is peopled by those who have been >exposed to Theosophy, and, hence, it reflects Theosophy in action. It certainly has a far wider cross-section of views on Theosophy, with views ranging from "it's all 18th century make believe" to a fundamentalist worship of the dead letter of theosophical "sacred literature". >One can >learn so much more about themselves, humanity, and the cosmos in exchanges >such as "barroom fights" or listening to someone on "a good soapbox." Yes, we learn by experience. Second-hand experience is helpful, like in watching others on the list. First-hand experience is better, where we write and deal with the reactions of others, some that may violently disagree with what we say. The degree of self-control that we exercise also has an effect on others; they see what we do and also can learn by our example. We can be civilized, acting from a sense of personal style and refinement, or we can act totally by impulse, overcome by the passion of the moment, like a barroom drunk punching someone in the face because of feeling slighted. The person that was punched in the face may have a learning experience, but I wouldn't try to justify that kind of experience as legitimate and necessary. >Careful observation of this list reveals individuals growing, maturing, >developing - I've seen people change before my eyes here. I've seen the changes too. The most noticeable change is that people get used to this new medium of communication and are better behaved -- new people start off with guns drawn, ready to reform the world by blasting everyone that disagrees with them. People learn how to "listen" to others that disagree with them rather than fight. They often are able to do so in person, with the other staring them in the face, but they find it hard at first to treat a mailing list as the same sort of situation. > I've learned more >about Theosophy - doing Theosophy - on this list than I have in the number >of books I've read on the subject. I'm glad for you. But don't discount what you *haven't found* in the books. There's a natural limitation on what can be put down in black-and-white on the printed pages, but I'd say there's quite a bit of wisdom left for any of us to find in the theosophical literature. >Doing Theosophy is much harder than reading about it - it can appear >uncivil, formless, chaotic, rowdy, uncultured - being able to peep and >perceive through that to comprehend the value of chaos and what it means is >the point. I don't see it as an either/or situation. We haven't really learned the esoteric philosophy until it becomes part of our day-to-day lives. This includes both the troubled times and the smooth times in life. There's nothing that says that we give up the sense of magic in life, the appreciation of the unexpected, the challenge of an ever-more-difficult life before us. This higher type of raw enthusiasm for life that I'm talking about it a key element of the spiritual Path. It has nothing to do with a Puritanical, pious observation of someone else's rules of good manners. And it's completely different that the drunken, "animal house", wild-party, pee-on-your-car sense of freedom-seeking which is only a childish rebellion from authority figures by confused people with no self-esteem nor heart-awareness. It's more like being excited about everything that comes to us in life, at each moment -- being as excited as a little child waking up on Christmas morning, about to run to the Christmas tree, There's also a sense of style, dignity, beauty to the feeling that makes it of a different quality of experience. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:32:32 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814193232.00bc657c@mail.eden.com> At 02:35 PM 8/14/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-08-14 01:55:48 EDT, you write: > >>BTW, a belief in God is a requirement of all religions, > >The good Buddhist may argue with you on that one. > >Chuck the Heretic I thought about it after posting! .........mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:32:34 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814193234.00bb5df8@mail.eden.com> At 02:56 PM 8/14/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: Bart Lidofsky >> Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version >> Date: Wednesday, August 13, 1997 10:54 PM >> >> >> I am highly allergic to ritual (I work as a consultant largely because >> I can't stand going to the same job for too long), and therefore the >> co-Masons are not for meI do, however, think that the groups >> have something important to offer, and recommend them to others >> (co-Masonry when available, Masonry otherwise, although I dislike the >> gender-bias of the group). I dislike the gender-bias of the LCC even >> more, because they should know better. > >They're clinging to the past. At the last LCC synod, the elevation of women to >higher posiitions was discussed, but voted down. IMHO, this will come to >pass anyway as the older generations move onto the higher planes and the >younger members make the necessary changes to suit the times. > >Equality is inevitable - we are entering the Aquarian Age and those >energies are influencing everyone. > >A. SAfron With this discriminatory position, I wonder what is the justification for many of those in leadership position touting LCC. It is just contradicts everything that is said in the first object. Blind leading the blind.... ...............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:32:36 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814193236.00bb952c@mail.eden.com> At 02:55 PM 8/14/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Again >> Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 12:55 AM >> >> >> For example in the last 3 years, I may have received a handful of e-mail >> msgs from TSA, while I have received numerous laser printed generated hard >> copy letters by US Mail from TSA. These letters are laser printed on TSA >> letter head on expensive paper (which even I could not afford and do not use >> in my business correspondence with very very affluent clients) and >> preprinted envelopes in same type of expensive paper (which I could not >> afford.) I know first hand the relative costs of paper because I spend my >> money every time I buy paper and envelopes and stamps. >> >Perhaps they are harking back to the days of HPB, CWL and Annie Besant, >where people thought nothing of dressing in formal clothes for the Annual >Meeting. Maybe the paper is being donated to them? > >A. Safron I never thought of the paper being donated. ............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:32:37 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814193237.00bbb894@mail.eden.com> At 03:00 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >Doss: > >>I think that Theosophy World is a *moderated* one and fits right into >>the current philosophy of TSA. > >It seems funny to speak of a magazine as "moderated". A better term >is "edited". The editing is to insure some minimum of quality of >materials, to add consistent formatting, to package the materials in >about the same number of pages/month, and to include a cross-section >of materials of interest. The selection of materials is subjective, as is >true of any editing, but it's perfectly fine for a magazine to have a >particular focus and personality. > >The associated discussion list is currently unmoderated (and has been >since it started in June 1996). Hopefully moderation won't ever be >necessary. The purpose of the list is more for study and sharing of >information, and personal attacks and one-like small talk messages >are discouraged. > >-- Eldon Thanks for clarification. So far what I have seen in theos world, I have been quite happy with it. Still editing can in the wrong hands go out of control or be used for political or other ends. It is just like editing a paper publication and may be akin to *moderation*. May be we need to coin another word for cyberspace *editing*. Glad to know that the associated discussion list is currently unmoderated and hope will continue to do so. Some times when real life facts (sometimes unpalatable) are presented, it may appear as a personal attack. The proof of the pudding is in eating and if a list serves the subscribers and they benefit from it, then is should be ok so long as any of posts break any laws of the country/countries. Keep up the good work. .............mkr .:. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:03:26 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: <199708142029.QAA19125@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart > Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 1:35 PM > > In a message dated 97-08-14 01:55:48 EDT, you write: > > >BTW, a belief in God is a requirement of all religions, > > The good Buddhist may argue with you on that one. > > Chuck the Heretic I have come to the conclusion that religions are made by people who have such a desire for power and tall hats, that they organize a group of people around them. Also, if they desire women or little boys, they will sway their attention in that arena. For the money-hungry, it's time for the congregation to empty out their pockets. IMNSHO, take hold of your own spirituality and avoid falling into the clutches of someone that will promise you the moon and then ask for a quarter. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:29:59 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <199708142029.QAA19135@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Huh? > Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 12:51 PM > > Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > > I heard a lot of > > >positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to > > >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". > > > > Allowed? ALLOWED? Good grief! > > I may not have made it sufficiently clear that I was writing it FOR the > TSA, as an official publication. I am certain even you would agree that > an organization has the right to decide what does or does not go into > their official publications. > I hate to say this, but I'm sure the official publications of Hitler and the Third Reich could have made the same claim. Every organization has an agenda and it will slant its material towards that agenda. It is as natural as two beings getting together and making love. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 20:40:54 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Oh, Brother! - of the Shadow??? Message-ID: >I guess like the MEN IN BLACK, they are working undercover to protect us from > >the Brothers of the Shadow. Sometimes I wonder who is winning? > We are. Of course, now the big question is, "Who is 'We'?" Chuck the Heretic Keith: No, the question is, "what's the score?" By now it must look like the national debt!) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 20:54:12 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Demiurgos is Satan - Prince of the Air and Shadows?? Message-ID: > If God, is omniscent and omnipotent, why doesn't he just >stop all this evil rebellion mess and reinstate paradise. > 'Cause he ain't either of the above. He's just a minor demiurge who visited the Middle East and stayed out in the sun too long. Chuck the Heretic Keith: Yes, according to the gnostics and a lot of modern feminist revisionists (strange bed fellows, wouldn't you say), God is a inept ( not Adept) tool of the Great Sophia. He screwed it up royally and we are left in the shards of the destruction of perfect LIGHT/WISDOM with the cold comfort that we at least have the KNOWLEDGE (gnosis) or the FAITH (in a Savior) that will get us out at the minutes after death. Sophia herself is but the lover of something greater the Ain Soph - the BIG NOTHING, but she loves us, too, her lost children. HPB explains and Bart pointed out that Satan can be seen as: 1. a Promethean rebel who brought the light of mind to the animal-man of the third root race. 2. The Dark Face of the Double Janus-faced Creater God. In other systems, he seems to be a kind of amoral lust, greedy, dirty old man with tail and horns: 3. Prince of the Air - some say he commands the aliens in the UFOs There maybe some doubt if we are created in the image of G-d, but G-d is definetly created in our image by our specualtions, fantasy, art, and philosophy. Until the sixth root race, we will pretty well be a mixture of angel and doogie doo. And Satan will be there called or uncalled. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 21:14:29 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Why was CWL "compelled"? Message-ID: Second of all, I am one of those strange people who believe that human beings have the capability of NOT acting on their desires. Just because someone may be a pedophile does not mean that they will molest children; merely that they have a desire to do so. Actions based on desire are based on a number of factors: Self control, morality of the action, social acceptability of the action, legality of the action, and the possibility of keeping the action private. I believe that, in terms of what we now know to be child molestation, those factors, except for the matter of self-control, were different for a man in the early 20th century than they are today. I was hoping that, even if he were guilty then, even if he was a pedophile, Leadbeater would have a better understanding of the harm that sex can do to children, or at least a greater fear of the consequences such actions would bring, to keep his desires under control. Bart Lidofsky Keith: He should have KNOWN better and no doubt he did. But when did that stop anyone. Self-knowledge only make the crimal part in us (the Shadow) more careful, wiser. To risk an amateur psycho-analysis, I would suggest a "new" idea that this sexuality was brought about by trying to be TOO spiritual. Jung goes to great lengths and depth to point out that St. John's Revelation is such a gross, primal, gooey, semi-pornographic (whore of Babylon, porn means whore remember), fantasy is that he tried for years to be a goody-goody and wound up on Patmos without much to show for it. I think CWL's pretentions to see auras and spot Master in the rough at the seaside, all built up in his unconscious causing this need to get "in touch" with what he might see as true innocence, unstained humanity blooming as a sexual flower to be plucked and appreciated. Nabokov's LOLITA has many such elements of the failed intellectual persuing the empty-headed, but "precious" Lolita because she was so perfectly what he wasn't. I am not saying this it THE interpretation, but might be added to the many others. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:59:22 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Huh? -- Correction: Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970814235922.00767458@mail.eden.com> At 03:39 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 03:00 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Doss: >> >>>I think that Theosophy World is a *moderated* one and fits right into >>>the current philosophy of TSA. >> >>It seems funny to speak of a magazine as "moderated". A better term >>is "edited". The editing is to insure some minimum of quality of >>materials, to add consistent formatting, to package the materials in >>about the same number of pages/month, and to include a cross-section >>of materials of interest. The selection of materials is subjective, as is >>true of any editing, but it's perfectly fine for a magazine to have a >>particular focus and personality. >> >>The associated discussion list is currently unmoderated (and has been >>since it started in June 1996). Hopefully moderation won't ever be >>necessary. The purpose of the list is more for study and sharing of >>information, and personal attacks and one-like small talk messages >>are discouraged. >> >>-- Eldon > >Thanks for clarification. > >So far what I have seen in theos world, I have been quite happy with it. >Still editing can in the wrong hands go out of control or be used for >political or other ends. It is just like editing a paper publication and may >be akin to *moderation*. May be we need to coin another word for cyberspace >*editing*. > >Glad to know that the associated discussion list is currently unmoderated >and hope will continue to do so. > >Some times when real life facts (sometimes unpalatable) are presented, it >may appear as a personal attack. > >The proof of the pudding is in eating and if a list serves the subscribers >and they benefit from it, then is should be ok so long as any of posts break THIS SHOULD READ: so long as any of the post *do* *not* break any laws.. >any laws of the country/countries. > >Keep up the good work. > >.............mkr .:. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:38:12 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: hearing about theos-l Message-ID: <199708150030.UAA25092@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Eldon B Tucker > Subject: Re: hearing about theos-l > Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 2:36 PM > > Kym: > > >Theosophy is much more than book learning - reading the basic philosophy of > >Theosophy is really only the naked beginning. > > True, but it depends on *what* books you read and if that reading stops > at brain-mind study of arbitrary metaphysical assertions or continues > until it penetrates to what might be called "mystery teachings" what you > get out of the books. We need to awaken higher faculties than what we > normally use to read and study books. > A couple of years ago I had flu and had to take it easy. Sometimes I was privileged to have lucid dreams which were quite entertaining. But the best part was reading Anne Rice's "Exit Eden". There was so much information in there about the higher and lower faculties, I had to put the book down every few pages just to think about it. A. SAfron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:36:41 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: hearing about theos-l Message-ID: <199708150030.UAA25102@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Eldon B. Tucker > Subject: hearing about theos-l > Date: Monday, August 11, 1997 10:22 AM > > I don't think that this list, theos-l, is being banished or shunned. Banished? I don't think John Meade would allow being driven away since he owns the list. As for shunning, that harks back to the Amish, who shun you if you step out of their strict line. > My impression is that it's a free-for-all where people can get whatever > they like out of it -- anything from help on information being sought > to a hunting ground to try out their newly-sharpened claws. The only > drawback is that this isn't a good place to learn about Theosophy if > someone is new to the subject, since the wide diversity of opinions > from "there ain't any such thing" to "my way is enlightened and the > people worshiping those dusty old books are deluded" make it hard > for people to learn about the core philosophy. > Such as it is. > I'll mention theos-l to people, but I can understand why some people > might not want to. The theos-l list is a good social hangout, and > a good soapbox for anyone to stand on and preach their ideas from. > And it's a good place for someone with a chip on their shoulders to > pick a barroom fight. But some people may want to create, promote, > and recommend to others places thah are "a good place to study > Theosophy", a different kind of hangout, but equally valid. I've been on the Internet for 6 years now and keep coming back to theos-l. Why? Because the wit, intelligence and humor of these folks simply can't be found anywhere else. Maybe I'm just one of those people that like to hang around a bar. Cheers. A. SAfron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:01:11 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <33F3AA57.19CB@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > I may not have made it sufficiently clear that I was writing it FOR the > > TSA, as an official publication. I am certain even you would agree that > > an organization has the right to decide what does or does not go into > > their official publications. > > > I hate to say this, but I'm sure the official publications of Hitler and > the Third Reich could have made the same claim. Are you equating the TSA with the Third Reich? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:28:51 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Not doggie doo. Message-ID: <7uGIwFATD78zEwBM@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , "Dr. A.M.Bain" writes >Theosophy International, which has kinks to other Theosophical >web sites. ROFL at own post! for "kinks" read "links"! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:24:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: hearing about theos-l Message-ID: In message <199708150030.UAA25102@mcfeely.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >Maybe I'm just one of those >people that like to hang around a bar. Cheers. Subtle ... Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:30:38 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <$+NJELA+E78zEwgK@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , "m.k. ramadoss" writes >Alan: It may be time to re-post the full letter. > >_______________________________________________________ > Peace to all living beings. > > M K Ramadoss I'll think about it ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:32:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <8+7JkOAmG78zEwhH@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33F3450D.4F7C@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> > I heard a lot of >> >positive comments about Theosophy World, however, and was allowed to >> >recommend it in my pamphlet, "Theosophists Guide to the Internet". >> >> Allowed? ALLOWED? Good grief! > > I may not have made it sufficiently clear that I was writing it FOR the >TSA, as an official publication. You didn't mention this at all. > I am certain even you would agree that >an organization has the right to decide what does or does not go into >their official publications. Did you ask for permission to recommend theos-l? > Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:42:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Demiurgos is Satan - Prince of the Air and Shadows?? Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Sophia herself is but the lover of something greater the Ain Soph - the BIG >NOTHING, but she loves us, too, her lost children. "We are surrounded by a big F... All, which biteth us constantly ..." - Mick Best, 1957. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:07:26 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <33F3E40E.559D@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > Did you ask for permission to recommend theos-l? Nope. I wouldn't recommend it. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 06:24:59 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <340185d6.15400750@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Alan wrote: >I was kicked off my Lodge committee for >*participating* in Internet activities and promoting Theosophy >International's approach to the three objects. This, BTW, is exactly >how *cults* behave - see other post. > >I can post the letter of dismissal again if you like. They even >considered throwing me out of the UK TS altogether. My experience with the TS (at least its Seattle lodge) is that it completely promotes freedom of speech and of thought - if anything, too much. At meetings, everyone is encouraged to say something - if anything, too much. Anyone who wants to be on the voting board could have political power. If anything, it should have more of a party line. If it has no specific message, it should disband. I have made my Internet activities known, and no one has threatened to kick me off of any committee. No one has ever told me not to say anything. This list was the first experience I had with Theosophists trying to shut me up. No Theosophist personally attacked me for what I said until some of those on this list did. Maybe you got kicked out for generally having the same attitude that it took for you to immediately call me a "sexist bastard" just because I wrote that I believed that men are superior to women in some ways, without stopping to think how hypocritically sexist the alternative is, with your Internet activities merely being used as a pretense. Stated reasons can radically differ from real reasons. Maybe they haven't kicked me out because I am nice, decent, and respectful towards everyone, as everyone has been to me. If I wasn't, they _should_ kick me out. An organization that promotes brotherhood can't afford to let destructive attitudes survive in it. I wouldn't want to belong to an organization that sanctioned personal attacks. For freedom of speech to be maximized, some speech has to be inhibited. Those anarchists who, in the name of free speech, advocate freedom of attitude and who therefore wouldn't touch a moderated discussion with a ten-foot pole, the more so as it more effectively eliminated such obstacles to a productive discussion, are the real enemies of free speech and thought. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:30:33 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970815123033.00f19998@mail.eden.com> At 04:46 AM 8/15/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Alan wrote: > >>I was kicked off my Lodge committee for >>*participating* in Internet activities and promoting Theosophy >>International's approach to the three objects. This, BTW, is exactly >>how *cults* behave - see other post. >> >>I can post the letter of dismissal again if you like. They even >>considered throwing me out of the UK TS altogether. > >My experience with the TS (at least its Seattle lodge) is that it >completely promotes freedom of speech and of thought - if anything, >too much. At meetings, everyone is encouraged to say something - if >anything, too much. Anyone who wants to be on the voting board could >have political power. If anything, it should have more of a party >line. If it has no specific message, it should disband. I have made >my Internet activities known, and no one has threatened to kick me off >of any committee. No one has ever told me not to say anything. This >list was the first experience I had with Theosophists trying to shut >me up. No Theosophist personally attacked me for what I said until >some of those on this list did. Maybe you got kicked out for >generally having the same attitude that it took for you to immediately >call me a "sexist bastard" just because I wrote that I believed that >men are superior to women in some ways, without stopping to think how >hypocritically sexist the alternative is, with your Internet >activities merely being used as a pretense. Stated reasons can >radically differ from real reasons. Maybe they haven't kicked me out >because I am nice, decent, and respectful towards everyone, as >everyone has been to me. If I wasn't, they _should_ kick me out. An >organization that promotes brotherhood can't afford to let destructive >attitudes survive in it. I wouldn't want to belong to an organization >that sanctioned personal attacks. For freedom of speech to be >maximized, some speech has to be inhibited. Those anarchists who, in >the name of free speech, advocate freedom of attitude and who >therefore wouldn't touch a moderated discussion with a ten-foot pole, >the more so as it more effectively eliminated such obstacles to a >productive discussion, are the real enemies of free speech and >thought. As theos-xxxx are the totally unmoderated, we don't even see the owner for months and months, anyone is free to say anything, and as such there would be wide difference of opinions and language vocabulary used etc. and they only reflect the individual's background and not the list. The fact most are on the list and post messages is reflective of the fact that there is a need of this type of list. Again, from personal experience I can tell that I have learned of things here in 2 years which I had not known in 40 years and some of the information is totally unobtainable anywhere else for love or money. At least I have found this list of value and does not even cost me anything, no membership dues, no fees, nothing etc and I am yet to find *any* substitute to it for what it does. My 2 cents. YMDMV. .............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:37:58 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Creed and Cult Message-ID: <199708151235.IAA03216@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Creed and Cult > Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 1:06 AM > > At 12:03 AM 8/14/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > >> objective. Most TS members believe (for example) in reincarnation > >> because the TS *teaches* it. Etc. ....... > > > > Well, actually, my belief in reincarnation is because the TS describes > >it in a way that makes sense to me. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > To me it is good working hypothesis based on what I see in every day life. > > ...............mkr > I believe in reincarnation because I started with Edgar Cayce. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:47:48 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <199708151250.IAA03752@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Huh? > Date: Friday, August 15, 1997 1:11 AM > > Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > Did you ask for permission to recommend theos-l? > > Nope. I wouldn't recommend it. > > Bart Lidofsky Thanks, Bart. Your guts to insult the people on this list is amazing. Sayanora. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 07:52:46 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <199708151250.IAA03758@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Huh? > Date: Thursday, August 14, 1997 8:02 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > > I may not have made it sufficiently clear that I was writing it FOR the > > > TSA, as an official publication. I am certain even you would agree that > > > an organization has the right to decide what does or does not go into > > > their official publications. > > > > > I hate to say this, but I'm sure the official publications of Hitler and > > the Third Reich could have made the same claim. > > Are you equating the TSA with the Third Reich? > > Bart Lidofsky Did you read the rest of my post? Every organization has an agenda and it will slant its material towards that agenda. It is as natural as two beings getting together and making love. A. Safron BTW, I'm really burnt out on corresponding with you, Bart. Don't expect any replies in the future. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:36:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Huh? -- Correction: Message-ID: <970815133256_688170173@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-15 02:22:02 EDT, you write: > >THIS SHOULD READ: so long as any of the post *do* *not* break any laws.. > >>any laws of the country/countries. >> As long as the post originiates in the US it is covered by the first amendment unless it's libel or kiddy porn so the idea of violating laws is pretty much irrelevant. My own website contains material that violates the domestic laws of most of the countries in the world, but as long as I stay here (and my dislike of travel is notorious) there aint a damned thing they can do about it. If any country has a law that violates the right of free speech, those of us on the net have positive duty to break that law. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:38:56 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <33F4A240.40A5@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > > Did you ask for permission to recommend theos-l? > > > > Nope. I wouldn't recommend it. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Thanks, Bart. Your guts to insult the people on this list is amazing. > Sayanora. A large portion of the conversation in this list is put-downs and insults aimed at the Theosophical Society. I do not consider it an insult to the people on this list that I would not recommend it to members of the Theosophical Society. Note that there is a difference between letting someone know that something exists, and recommending it. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:46:30 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Three Monkeys Message-ID: <199708151946.NAA25170@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: > A large portion of the conversation in this list is put-downs and >insults aimed at the Theosophical Society. One of the problems with the TS and those who hob-nob "at the top" (such as you) is that they are quick to label complaints and disillusionment as "put-downs" and "insults." Listening to some of us mere mortal members is not a priority with the TS - if we disagree, we are simply whining. Your defense of the TS is admirable - but the TS consists of many more people than Algeo and you are willing to recognize. It is not an exclusive club - no matter how hard some may try to make it so. >I do not consider it an >insult to the people on this list that I would not recommend it to >members of the Theosophical Society. It is an insult that you believe the opinions expressed here are unworthy of being heard by other members. Again, this is an example of trying to push out those who march to the sound of a different drummer. It's not right, Bart, and I think you know it. I have often disagreed with some things you have to say - but I, and others on this list, would never even consider pretending that you are not as valuable in opinion and person as the rest of us. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:10:55 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: <199708151914.PAA21001@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Huh? > Date: Friday, August 15, 1997 1:40 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > > > Did you ask for permission to recommend theos-l? > > > > > > Nope. I wouldn't recommend it. > > > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > Thanks, Bart. Your guts to insult the people on this list is amazing. > > Sayanora. > > A large portion of the conversation in this list is put-downs and > insults aimed at the Theosophical Society. I do not consider it an > insult to the people on this list that I would not recommend it to > members of the Theosophical Society. > > Note that there is a difference between letting someone know that > something exists, and recommending it. As I said, Sayanora, Bart. Let someone else on this list talk to you. Also, your link from my web page has been removed. You have to be nice to people to have them do you favors. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:44:52 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: It has occurred to me . . . Message-ID: <199708151942.PAA27159@newman.concentric.net> Fellow Theos-l Posters: My recent posts with Bart Lifdolsky have often left me puzzled. He seemed to be twisting what I said. And then he openly says that he would not recommend this list to anyone. Then why is he on this list? My guess is that on his own or at the suggestion of someone else, he has been harrassing those on the list and making those on the list look like black rebels that are about to destroy the TSA Empire. Though I'm sure he will deny every word I've said, I had to put in one last post in his direction. Preferably with a point. Think about it. Why would someone diss this list? Because they are deadly afraid that someone is going to say the truth. Doss might print a historical paper that would reveal something. KPJ might say something negative about the Masters. Even Tom, might say that all women should kneel at his feet. And Chuck, the babe, and me, A. Safron might talk about S&M. Is this Theosophy? Maybe not, but the only person whose business that is is John Meade. When he sends me a post (or anyone) else and tells me to shut up, that will be that. Dr. Bain? This would be a really good time for you to step in and talk about TI. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:05:56 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet progress Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970815200556.006a5600@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting article on WWW. I am posting it here so that you can see where computer/internet technology is moving to. The current generation of computer/web literate leaders take over the leadership of organizations from computer/web *illiterate* leadership, we will see very innovative changes and programs implemented so that for more people can be reached and helped. Let us look to the next millenium as the current one is already coming to an end. .........mkr ======================================== August 15, 1997 3:57 pm EDT Everything's Big in Texas-Including the Web Ziff Davis Wire Highlights 14-AUG-97 ZDNet News (August 14, 1997) - While many teachers struggle to convince administrators they need the Net, the Houston school district already boasts a multitude of T-1 links--to each of its 290 schools, in fact. The K-12 district received this head start thanks to a grassroots effort. Back in 1995, its staffers launched an aggressive initiative to wire each school and to teach the teachers to use the Internet to its full advantage. Now, less than two years later, the high school calculus teacher who helped spearhead the project, Cynthia Lanius, points out that it has produced numerous benefits, including some she didn't expect. "My coolness factor among the students has increased by an order of magnitude because I have a Web page," says Lanius. The Houston schools' teacher training and Internet curriculum project, run by Lanius and sponsored by the National Science Foundation-funded Center for Research on Parallel Computation at Rice University, began as an effort to instruct 20 Houston teachers to use the Internet in the classroom, and to increase girl students' interest in math, science and computers. The GirlTECH program, which gained additional funding from an Austin-based nonprofit educational concern, the RGK Foundation, has now spread through neighboring suburban districts as the original 20 teachers went on to train others. Some 2,500 Texas teachers have now completed the program and learned to use the Internet for research and collaboration and to design and publish Web pages, write HTML code, and formulate girl-friendly web-based math and science curricula, Lanius says. In the Houston schools, the result has been a math, science and computer program that gives students hands-on experience with the Web as a learning and collaboration tool. (See a list of lesson plans at www.crpc.rice.edu/CRPC/Women/GirlTECH/Lessons/.) The program also offers ongoing support groups for teachers, and helps schools establish student technology councils to give kids input on what they learn in computer science classes. The effort is growing exponentially, as teachers who have completed the training publish their original course ideas on the Web. "Some teachers then choose to go back and make a Web site or their school based on what they learned in the program," Lanius says. As the program continues, Lanius hopes to increase E-mail collaboration among teachers and to add new Internet training programs for high school counselors and English teachers. The Houston district may be unique in the extent of its Internet curricula, but a growing number of U.S. schools are moving in the same direction, says Tammy Cunningham, executive producer of K-12 Internet content for publisher Simon & Schuster and a new media executive at education software publisher Computer Curriculum Corp. Last year, some 14 percent of U.S. public schools had Internet access in the classroom, but the number may be closer to 20 percent this year, Cunningham says. "Teachers tend to think of the Internet primarily as a research vehicle, and we want them to go beyond that." At teacher conventions across the United States, interest in Web-based curricula is increasing despite the buzz such programs generated in their earliest stages. "In 1995 and 1996, there was so much hype about using the Web in the classroom that we thought people might get burned out," Cunningham says. "But it's not going away." By Maria Seminerio Copyright (c) 1997 Ziff-Davis Publishing From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:51:04 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: It has occurred to me . . . Message-ID: <33F4CF48.643C@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > Fellow Theos-l Posters: > > My recent posts with Bart Lifdolsky have often left > me puzzled. He seemed to be twisting what I said. If I have, then I apologize. The only place where that might have been true was when you compared behavior of the TS and that of Nazi Germany, and qualified your statement in the next sentence. I took the initial sentence, because you used such an emotionally loaded example, which, in my opinion, overrides any subsequent explanation. If there are any other examples, I will either explain my statement, or retract it. > And then he openly says that he would not > recommend this list to anyone. Then why is he > on this list? I did not say that I would not recommend this list to anyone. I said that I would not recommend this list in a publication aimed at members of the TSA. If I were building a comprehensive list of Theosophy on the Internet, I would certainly mention this list. As far as the reason why I am on this list, when the subject actually gets to Theosophy, then there are opinions that I value expressed. > My guess is that on his own or at the suggestion > of someone else, he has been harrassing those on > the list and making those on the list look like black > rebels that are about to destroy the TSA Empire. Oh, there is no need for THAT. > Think about it. Why would someone diss this list? > Because they are deadly afraid that someone is > going to say the truth. It is not the factual information that I am upset about. It is the casual, snide, put-downs, often accompanied by taking phrases out of context, and twisting them in ways Gracie Allen would find ridiculous. > Doss might print a historical paper that would > reveal something. KPJ might say something negative > about the Masters. Even Tom, might say that all > women should kneel at his feet. And Chuck, the babe, > and me, A. Safron might talk about S&M. And I have no personal problem with any of this (well, maybe with Tom...) > Dr. Bain? This would be a really good time for > you to step in and talk about TI. Actually, I did state that if what Dr. Bain says about his being dismissed from the TS in England is true, then, in my opinion, he was definitely wronged. He mentioned the possibility of posting his letter of dismissal; I am willing to take his word for it as to the contents (whatever else I have said about him, I have never called him a liar, although I have disagreed with many of his conclusions), which is why I didn't specifically request that he post it, but if he posts it anyway, I would be interested in reading it. Bart From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:16:12 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart Message-ID: <33F4C71B.1450@dmv.com> theos-l@vnet.net wrote: > From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" > Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart > Even Jesus said we have > to take heaven by storm! Older Xtian mystics advocated similar > approaches, telling contemplatives to keep on pestering God until they > got a sensible response .... Alan, you are probably making reference to the words of Paul in Hebrews 4:16 which in the KJV goes as follows: "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." The revised version of this text uses the word confidently in place of boldly. I suspect that most of the "violent" language in the new testament writings has its source in Paul. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:15:27 -0500 From: IMRICH@webtv.net (John Woodruff) Subject: Signing Off Message-ID: <199708152215.PAA25049@mailtod-102.bryant.webtv.net> Will someone kindly sign me off this list, I've tried numerous times with no success. Please help, THANKS From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:29:23 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: It has occurred to me . . . Message-ID: <3407e221.31533980@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron wrote: >Think about it. Why would someone diss this list? >Because they are deadly afraid that someone is >going to say the truth. It couldn't possibly be due to the _way_ in which this "truth" is said and to the too great proportion of meaningless material in it. >Doss might print a historical paper that would >reveal something. KPJ might say something negative >about the Masters. Even Tom, might say that all >women should kneel at his feet. And Chuck, the babe, >and me, A. Safron might talk about S&M. Is this >Theosophy? Maybe not, but the only person whose >business that is is John Meade. What people post is all readers' business. Some people would prefer a discussion list that is more predominantly Theosophy. For that, TS-L is more appropriate. The material on Theos-L is often more appropriate to a chat room. There are hundreds of those where there is complete freedom of speech. Why not prefer them and not discuss Theosophy at all? Freedom must be limited by purpose, or it is meaningless. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:29:40 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Huh? -- Correction: Message-ID: <340dedcf.34501028@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Chuck wrote: >If any country has a law that violates the right of free speech, those of us >on the net have positive duty to break that law. The United States has many anti-free speech laws, such as those against talking about plans to assassinate its President, against joking about carrying firearms on to a plane, against lying while under oath, and against yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:40:01 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: <33F504F0.2870@gil.net> Howdy to all, I was taken with and almost taken in by Bart's 'Nazi' theme, >Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:01:11 -0400 >From: Bart Lidofsky >Subject: Re: Huh? >Message-ID: <33F3AA57.19CB@sprynet.com> >A. Safron wrote: > > I may not have made it sufficiently clear that I was writing >>it FOR the > > TSA, as an official publication. I am certain even you would agree >>that >> an organization has the right to decide what does or does not go >>into > > their official publications. > I hate to say this, but I'm sure the official publications of Hitler and > the Third Reich could have made the same claim. Are you equating the TSA with the Third Reich? Bart Lidofsky Bart, Perhaps sans jack boots, brown shirts and a beard of a leader haranguing the masses into a hysteric orgasm, there are many similarities between the National Socialist seizure of power in Germany during the 20's and the current TSA officialdom's expunging of the democratic process in the past four years. First by separation of dissension (tell the big lie long enough, loud enough and often enough, that, it is 'Them or Us !'), then consolidate positions of power in the hands of a few people of like intent (change the rules for running for a National office), and finally, illegally manipulate and intentionally trash the democratic process governing the society. Other than the book and building pyrotechnics, do these actions sound familiar? There are instances, some related on this list, of books gone missing from the Wheaton library that run counter to the current TSA MANAGEMENT official thinking. Using the preceding venue, a small clique of the current TSA MANAGEMENT has taken control of the TSA. Do they espouse by their past actions the high standards of the three declared objects or of the "non dogmatic" approach to life? I for one see it not. Nor can it be found in the newly subscribed 'midnight' by-laws. What can be observed is the profound gifts of insight, clarity and the blueprint for human evolvement along with the form wealth of the TSA being placed in the hands of very few people. These officers remain unmonitored, unchecked and unrestrained personages. They give no acknowledgment or hint of their intention. More important, they have never affirmed being only the 'custodians', not 'owners' of the Theosophical Society and it's mandate. TSA MANAGEMENT is known to have used nefarious, illegal, sub-Rosa tactics, playing to the fears of the vulnerable and pandering with tomes of high sounding cliche's to the ears of the uncaring in their naked grab to consolidate power and control. All the physical assets, the publishing voice and finally the soul of the Theosophical Society in America have been suborned. Do you see something similar at work here to the National Socialists ? Bart, I know you are a supporter of the Wheatonists and I will always defend to the best of my ability, your right to express your opinion. No matter that your position viz 'the Wheatonists' is abhorrent to me at the core of my being. Please Bart, do not try to ascend the high moral ground with talk of your "Recommendations for inclusions …", "Official contention …" and the oft used, "Wheaton's position is …" Yes Bart, I respect your right to a view, I do not accept any extraneous spiritual authority of the ilk described above. My own discernment and thus the responsibility for my actions bodes me well. In closing, is there a religion or society higher than the truth …? Thinks me not. As always, Peace Profound Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:16:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: 1996 Letter Message-ID: To readers of theos-l. Herewith the letter to which I referred in other posts. A few comments of my own follow at the end. THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY IN ENGLAND BRISTOL LODGE [address] Alan Bain, [address] 21.1.96. "Dear Alan "The President's decision to dismiss you from the Committee was confirmed by the Committee - 8 votes in favour, 2 against. "The Committee has also decided to reiterate the following:- "We hereby request and require that you refrain from handing out any leaflet or literature not approved by the Committee, or by the President in office at that time, and that you desist from intimating that you are an official spokesperson for this Lodge or the Theosophical Society in England". "The Committee's further decision which was confirmed by 9 votes in favour, with 1 abstention. That we repeat our warning that you, whilst a member of this Lodge, do not undermine the Lodge or T.S. by promoting or proposing alternative Theosophical Organizations on paper, or the Internet or other electronic media, and to desist from any such activities that you may be engaged on at present. Failure to do this may result in your being requested to resign from the Lodge. "Furthermore the Committee felt that it would not be appropriate for you to give the scheduled lecture 'My Theosophy', and that the invitation to do so should be withdrawn. 8 votes in favour, 1 abstention, 1 member having withdrawn from the meeting. "Yours sincerely "Stephen Hagan Lodge President" (Comments: Asking me to desist from intimating that I was an official spokesperson etc. fell into the category of "stop beating your grandmother." IOW, the suggestion was a lie. I do not want to go into these matters in any further detail - I did that at the time, when far worse allegations and downright lies were circulated by certain committee members. Suffice it to say that all the matters of which the above letter were the summation were conducted in contravention of the Lodge rules, the National Society rules, and the International [Adyar] rules, and at no time was I given any opportunity to speak on my own behalf. I am now no longer a member of the TS in England, nor shall I ever be again, together with a number of other people (mostly women) who were members of Bristol Lodge at the time. Its membership is now, I am informed, about 80% of its previous 1996 total administered by, effectively, an autocratic oligarchy.) AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:00:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: NT quotes Message-ID: In message <33F4C71B.1450@dmv.com>, Vincent Beall writes >theos-l@vnet.net wrote: > >> From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" > >> Subject: Re: Satan - to Bart > >> Even Jesus said we have >> to take heaven by storm! Older Xtian mystics advocated similar >> approaches, telling contemplatives to keep on pestering God until they >> got a sensible response .... RSV: Matt. 11:12 - "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence [alt: has been coming violently] and men of violence take it by force." The Aramaic Peshitta text as translated by Lamsa has here: "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been administered by force, and only those in power control it." Lamsa writes in the introduction to his translation (he was a native Aramaic speaker from [then] Mesopotamia, English being his second language: "The Christians in Palestine and Syria were the first to embrace Christianity. They must have had gospels in Aramaic in order to preach to Greeks and other people. Gospels were in circulation before St. Paul's conversion. They were written ten or fifteen years after the crucifixion. They were the recordings of the eye witnesses who had traveled with Jesus and who could record most of the teachings of their Lord. Papias tells us that Matthew wrote in the language of the Hebrews, that is Aramaic. This is supported by the testimonies of the early fathers and historians." ~The New Tesament according the the Eastern Text translated from Original Aramaic Sources~ George M. Lamsa, Philadelphia, A.J.Holman Company, 1933-1968. The complete Bible tr. by Lamsa is also available from Harper. There is also a Hebrew/Aramaic diglot of the ~Peshitta~ [Aram: pure, simple] New Covenant text (no English, except in the introduction) published by the Bible Society in Israel. I only mention this as yourself and others on the list may find it of more than passing interest. > >Alan, you are probably making reference to the words of Paul in Hebrews >4:16 which in the KJV goes as follows: > >"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may >obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." No I am not, but I must confess to a surfeit of reading! The exact words I used may be elsewhere, although I am fairly sure that Jesus urged his followers to (in effect) hammer on the doors of heaven until they got a response ... in any case, the mystics mentioned above were fond of suggesting this might be desirable or necessary. > >The revised version of this text uses the word confidently in place of >boldly. I suspect that most of the "violent" language in the new >testament writings has its source in Paul. Hardly any scholars would accept any more that Hebrews was written by Paul, though this does not materially affect your accurate comment. I do not have my Bible search programs on this PC, which I must remedy! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:05:14 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Signing Off Message-ID: In message <199708152215.PAA25049@mailtod-102.bryant.webtv.net>, John Woodruff writes >Will someone kindly sign me off this list, I've tried numerous times >with no success. > >Please help, THANKS To sign off you need to send a message to listproc@vnet.net with the single line (nothing else): signoff theos-l It is essential to do this from the same e-mail address that you signed ON from. If you cannot do this, send an e-mail to JEM@vnet.net asking him to remove your name. If you cannot recall where you signed on from, send a message to listproc@vnet.net with the single line: Rev theos-l and you will get a list of subscribers with e-mail addresses. Then you can look your original e-mail address up. Hope this helps. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:53:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Huh? Message-ID: In message <33F3E40E.559D@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> Did you ask for permission to recommend theos-l? > > Nope. I wouldn't recommend it. > > Bart Lidofsky then why subscribe to it? AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:09:54 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: It has occurred to me . . . Message-ID: In message <199708151942.PAA27159@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >Dr. Bain? This would be a really good time for >you to step in and talk about TI. I did. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:06:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: In message <340185d6.15400750@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>, Tom Robertson writes >Maybe you got kicked out for >generally having the same attitude that it took for you to immediately >call me a "sexist bastard" I may have called you sexist, as your posts suggest you are. That's freedom of speech and freedom of opinion. As I have no knowledge of your parentage I have no reason to describe you as a bastard, and am certain that I have never done so. You appear frequently to regard women as inferior, and have been known to use language in a way that has clearly offended them, as some of their responses have made abundantly clear. If this is not the case, perhaps your use of language on the list is in need of revision? You appear to be accusing me of having an attitude which is in conflict with the first object, which in this post you are yourself abrogating. Those of us who founded TI spent a great deal of thought, time, and heart-searching to try to get this right. You joined us almost immediately upon your entrance to theos-l, and then began by posting messages which appeared to give the lie to your stated commitment when "signing up." Perhaps you would like to re-affirm this commitment and explain to those of us who have found your posts objectionable where it is we are not understanding you? The quote from your post above reads as though your attitude towards myself and others on this list is anything but "brotherly." As an example of how this kind of attitude works in practice, I probably *will* repost the letter I mentioned. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:12:53 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: "Bastard" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970816031253.00c11bfc@mail.eden.com> If there are any "Bastards" -- real or imagined here, you are in very good company. Some of the world greatest geniuses have been bastards. One well known example, is the Great Indian Teacher Shri Shankaracharya who is revered by millions even today after several centuries, and who is considered by every Theosophical writer starting with HPB onwards as one of the Greatest Adepts to incarnate was considered a bastard and when his mother died, the people in the village shunned Him and refused to give him fire to cremate his mother's remains. He by his power lighted the funeral pyre and his mother was cremated. The world owes a lot of gratitude to many bastards for the good they have done to it. ........MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:50:14 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: <33F52376.65A3@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > In closing, is there a religion or society higher than the truth …? > Thinks me not. I hope you can back up the statements you made. I know of at least one person at Wheaton who reads this list, and you made a number of statements that go beyond opinion, and to the point of making you liable to a lawsuit for slander if you cannot back them up (specifically, allegations of illegality). If the people at Wheaton did in fact act illegally, then why don't you call the authorities and have them arrested? Why don't you start a class action lawsuit? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:10:52 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: 1996 Letter Message-ID: <33F5284C.36C@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: Before I start, I will say that, had I been on that Committee (Board of Directors, I assume), I would have voted against on all counts which you deemed valid. Given that: > "We hereby request and require that you refrain from handing > out any leaflet or literature not approved by the Committee, > or by the President in office at that time, and that you desist > from intimating that you are an official spokesperson > for this Lodge or the Theosophical Society in England". The former part I would deem to be directly anti-Theosophical. We have quite a bit of cross-membership in the New York Lodge, and, during our general discussions, people from other groups are encouraged to tell us the other points of view (kind of parallel to Subba Row's recommendation that members study other religions and present a theosophical analysis to the other members). > "The Committee's further decision which was confirmed by > 9 votes in favour, with 1 abstention. That we repeat our > warning that you, whilst a member of this Lodge, do not > undermine the Lodge or T.S. by promoting or proposing > alternative Theosophical Organizations on paper, or the > Internet or other electronic media, and to desist from > any such activities that you may be engaged on at present. > Failure to do this may result in your being requested to > resign from the Lodge. OK, to me that does not sound like they were throwing you out for being on the Internet; it was what you were saying. And, in my opinion, and the opinion of those at Wheaton to whom I have spoken, there is a difference between what a person says on their own, and what they say in the name of the TS. The former s ENTIRELY their own business. I am sorry that the Committee at Bristol thought otherwise. > "Furthermore the Committee felt that it would not be appropriate > for you to give the scheduled lecture 'My Theosophy', and that > the invitation to do so should be withdrawn. 8 votes in favour, > 1 abstention, 1 member having withdrawn from the meeting. That is their privilege. Once again, I would have voted against. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: It has occurred to me . . . Message-ID: <970816011616_-501758165@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-15 22:22:08 EDT, you write: >My guess is that on his own or at the suggestion >of someone else, he has been harrassing those on >the list and making those on the list look like black >rebels that are about to destroy the TSA Empire. > You mean we aren't?????? Chuck the Heretical Leather Babe From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 06:56:31 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <34194d67.57208397@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Alan wrote: >In message <340185d6.15400750@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>, Tom >Robertson writes >>Maybe you got kicked out for >>generally having the same attitude that it took for you to immediately >>call me a "sexist bastard" >I may have called you sexist, as your posts suggest you are. That's >freedom of speech and freedom of opinion. As I have no knowledge of >your parentage I have no reason to describe you as a bastard, and am >certain that I have never done so. I suppose technically, you're correct, since, the way you put it, you didn't say it yourself, but quoted a woman to whom you repeated what I had written, and who said I was a sexist bastard. But if you didn't agree with her, why would you quote her? To say that you never said it implies that you would not have said it yourself, which I don't believe. >You appear frequently to regard women as inferior, and have been known >to use language in a way that has clearly offended them, as some of >their responses have made abundantly clear. That's because their definition of sexism, as yours appears to be, is anything that thinks anything negatively of women. Men can be thought of as negatively as possible, with no charge of sexism, as April Joy's posts, listing 40 or so criticisms of men, and the non-responses to them made obvious. Truth doesn't matter to such sexist people with that view of sexism, and I don't care if I offend such people, since I would have to be dishonest not to. >The quote from your post above reads as though your attitude towards >myself and others on this list is anything but "brotherly." Are you saying that calling someone who did nothing more than list some differences he saw between men and women a "sexist bastard" is "brotherly" and "freedom of speech and freedom of opinion," but suggesting the possibility (which is what the word "maybe" does) that you might have had something to do with your dismissal from a committee on the TS is unbrotherly and shouldn't be said? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 07:42:23 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: K advised Indian Politicians Message-ID: <33F5A02F.6EA8@eden.com> India is celebrating its 50th anniversary of its Independence. One of the little known fact is that starting with Jawaharlal Nehru, the first prime minister down to Indira Gandhi, K was consulted from time to time on the problems of the country. I am sure some of his suggestions may have been acted on and helped the country. I think some may like to know this historical fact. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 08:05:45 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <199708161314.JAA07043@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > Subject: Re: Internet and TS > Date: Saturday, August 16, 1997 2:01 AM > > Alan wrote: > > >In message <340185d6.15400750@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>, Tom >Robertson writes > > >>Maybe you got kicked out for > >>generally having the same attitude that it took for you to immediately > >>call me a "sexist bastard" > > >I may have called you sexist, as your posts suggest you are. That's > >freedom of speech and freedom of opinion. As I have no knowledge of > >your parentage I have no reason to describe you as a bastard, and am > >certain that I have never done so. > > I suppose technically, you're correct, since, the way you put it, you > didn't say it yourself, but quoted a woman to whom you repeated what I > had written, and who said I was a sexist bastard. But if you didn't > agree with her, why would you quote her? To say that you never said > it implies that you would not have said it yourself, which I don't > believe. > > >You appear frequently to regard women as inferior, and have been known > >to use language in a way that has clearly offended them, as some of > >their responses have made abundantly clear. > > That's because their definition of sexism, as yours appears to be, is > anything that thinks anything negatively of women. Men can be thought > of as negatively as possible, with no charge of sexism, as April Joy's > posts, listing 40 or so criticisms of men, and the non-responses to > them made obvious. Truth doesn't matter to such sexist people with > that view of sexism, and I don't care if I offend such people, since I > would have to be dishonest not to. > > >The quote from your post above reads as though your attitude towards > >myself and others on this list is anything but "brotherly." > > Are you saying that calling someone who did nothing more than list > some differences he saw between men and women a "sexist bastard" is > "brotherly" and "freedom of speech and freedom of opinion," but > suggesting the possibility (which is what the word "maybe" does) that > you might have had something to do with your dismissal from a > committee on the TS is unbrotherly and shouldn't be said? I've finally figured it out, Tom. You're about 110 yrs old with ideas that would fit the times of 1887. A relic among us. Take care, lover. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 07:59:54 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: It has occurred to me . . . Message-ID: <199708161314.JAA07039@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: It has occurred to me . . . > Date: Saturday, August 16, 1997 12:17 AM > > In a message dated 97-08-15 22:22:08 EDT, you write: > > >My guess is that on his own or at the suggestion > >of someone else, he has been harrassing those on > >the list and making those on the list look like black > >rebels that are about to destroy the TSA Empire. > > You mean we aren't?????? > > Chuck the Heretical Leather Babe Come to think it, you're right! When do we storm the castle? :-) A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 03:23:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: In message <33F504F0.2870@gil.net>, Ken Malkin writes >Yes Bart, I respect your right to a view, I do not accept any extraneous >spiritual authority of the ilk described above. My own discernment and >thus the responsibility for my actions bodes me well. > >In closing, is there a religion or society higher than the truth ? >Thinks me not. > >As always, Peace Profound Thank you, Ken. I couldn't have put it better, not least because my own experience is with the TS in E and not the TSA, but the symptoms are horrifyingly familiar. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:12:01 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970816151201.00df7d28@mail.eden.com> At 11:51 PM 8/15/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >Ken Malkin wrote: > >> In closing, is there a religion or society higher than the truth …? >> Thinks me not. > > I hope you can back up the statements you made. I know of at least one >person at Wheaton who reads this list, and you made a number of >statements that go beyond opinion, and to the point of making you liable >to a lawsuit for slander if you cannot back them up (specifically, >allegations of illegality). > > If the people at Wheaton did in fact act illegally, then why don't you >call the authorities and have them arrested? Why don't you start a class >action lawsuit? > > Bart Lidofsky If you have followed all the developments surrounding the changes to the bylaws which were made some time ago, you should have noticed that more than one attorney member of TS has come to the conclusion that bylaw changes were null and void because TSA itself did not follow its own bylaws when changes were made. I think this is what Ken was refering to. If there comes a time when a litigation becomes necessary because TSA tries to seize the property of a lodge, then we will see these issues and other related ones brought up. As most of the lodges are cash poor (none has a multi-million dollar bank account) and as they are using the meagre resources for Theosophical purposes and I don't expect any of them to enrich any lawyers. Lawyers are very very expensive, especially in large cities. Boston lodge litigation is a prime example of how much lawyers cost. ...............MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:27:47 -0500 From: Kirsten Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1193 Message-ID: <33F5C6F3.5C75@gulf.net> The conversation on this list is so tacky and childish. Slander and lawsuits...the last cry of the insulted. You people aren't theosophists, you're bored. I work with someone that just likes to instigate unrest and derisiveness and he does it because he wants to be a star. He likes to be talked about and disliked why?...I don't know. But I see the same thing going on here, not in private by email, but here where the public comes, to discuss theosophy with like-minded individuals, and then leaves because there are none. bye. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:11:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: "Bastard" Message-ID: <970816121120_889587960@emout08.mail.aol.com> The idea that the value of a person in some way depended on whether or not his parents produced him after their union had been certified by a particularly stupid ritual or meaningless bureaucratic scrap of paper has always struck me as one of the more imbecilitic things people have come up with. Who cares? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:14:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: K advised Indian Politicians Message-ID: <970816121415_564694650@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-16 08:46:08 EDT, you write: > I am sure some of his suggestions >may have been acted on and helped the country. > Or made it a bigger mess than it already was. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:16:34 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Sexism vs. Truth Message-ID: <33F5E072.3CE2@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > That's because their definition of sexism, as yours appears to be, is > anything that thinks anything negatively of women. Men can be thought > of as negatively as possible, with no charge of sexism, as April Joy's > posts, listing 40 or so criticisms of men, and the non-responses to > them made obvious. Truth doesn't matter to such sexist people with > that view of sexism, and I don't care if I offend such people, since I > would have to be dishonest not to. That is the key problem with "political correctness", in that certain statements are either permissable or impermissable, depending on whether they refer to a group perceived as being "in power", or a group perceived as being "victims". However, there are two important keys to recognizing facts about different groups: 1) Is the fact based on biology, or is based on culture? For example, men being generally physically able to lift more weight than women is almost definitely biological, while women generally showing emotion in public more than men may very well be cultural. 2) JUST BECAUSE ONE GROUP HAS A DIFFERENCE IN GENERAL WITH ANOTHER GROUP DOES NOT MEAN THAT ANY GIVEN INDIVIDUAL FROM ONE GROUP HAS THAT DIFFERENCE FROM ANY GIVEN INDIVIDUAL FROM THE OTHER GROUP. While you can give probabilities, you cannot say for certain if you take a woman out of a crowd and a man out of the same crowd, if the woman can or cannot lift more than the man. With more subtle differences, even the probabilities get skewed. The problem that many people had with your early posts here was that, regardless of your meaning, you were saying that we SHOULD judge individuals based on generalities. Specifically, you were saying that women were generally more submissive than men, and therefore women should not be in positions of political authority. And that is judging individuals by generalities, and at that a generality which is not even well-demonstrated. And that is where the accusations of sexism came in. As I mentioned at the time, even among the Lubavitcher Hasidic Jews, not a group noted for equal treatment of the sexes, their rabbi, Menachem Schneersohn, stated that you must treat women as individuals, and if a woman is better suited to be a doctor rather than a homemaker, than that woman should be a doctor. He also said that if a woman is better suited to being a homemaker than being a doctor, even if she is capable of being a doctor, she should not be forced into an occupation for which she is not better suited. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:28:13 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: <33F5E32D.19FB@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > If you have followed all the developments surrounding the changes to > the bylaws which were made some time ago, you should have noticed that more > than one attorney member of TS has come to the conclusion that bylaw changes > were null and void because TSA itself did not follow its own bylaws when > changes were made. Other than Sy, who else was there? I had read Sy's letters when he sent it out, and showed it to several attorneys, as well as the by-laws, and they disagreed with his conclusions (they did, however, point out to me the major flaw in the National by-laws, which I have been campaigning to have changed: it only requires a simple majority of the Board of Directors to dissolve a Lodge (it requires 2/3 to throw out an individual member). > If there comes a time when a litigation becomes necessary because TSA > tries to seize the property of a lodge, then we will see these issues and > other related ones brought up. It depends. There are very few Lodges with an amount of property sufficient to be worth a lawsuit. New York already has language in its by-laws allowing National to take over the property (but NOT to remove it from the city) should the New York Lodge be dissolved, so I don't think it would stand up in court very well. I don't know about the other Lodges with considerable property (Seattle, the camps, etc.). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 09:47:47 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: <199708161827.OAA29233@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Ken Malkin > Subject: Bart and the Nazi's > Date: Friday, August 15, 1997 8:43 PM > > Howdy to all, > > I was taken with and almost taken in by Bart's 'Nazi' theme, > > >Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:01:11 -0400 > >From: Bart Lidofsky > >Subject: Re: Huh? > >Message-ID: <33F3AA57.19CB@sprynet.com> > >A. Safron wrote: > > > I may not have made it sufficiently clear that I was writing >>it FOR the > > > TSA, as an official publication. I am certain even you would agree >>that > >> an organization has the right to decide what does or does not go >>into > > > their official publications. > > I hate to say this, but I'm sure the official publications of Hitler and > > the Third Reich could have made the same claim. > Are you equating the TSA with the Third Reich? > Bart Lidofsky > > Bart, > Perhaps sans jack boots, brown shirts and a beard of a leader haranguing > the masses into a hysteric orgasm, there are many similarities between > the National Socialist seizure of power in Germany during the 20's and > the current TSA officialdom's expunging of the democratic process in the > past four years. > > First by separation of dissension (tell the big lie long enough, loud > enough and often enough, that, it is 'Them or Us !'), then consolidate > positions of power in the hands of a few people of like intent (change > the rules for running for a National office), and finally, illegally > manipulate and intentionally trash the democratic process governing the > society. Other than the book and building pyrotechnics, do these actions > sound familiar? There are instances, some related on this list, of books > gone missing from the Wheaton library that run counter to the current > TSA MANAGEMENT official thinking. > > Using the preceding venue, a small clique of the current TSA MANAGEMENT > has taken control of the TSA. Do they espouse by their past actions the > high standards of the three declared objects or of the "non dogmatic" > approach to life? I for one see it not. Nor can it be found in the newly > subscribed 'midnight' by-laws. > > What can be observed is the profound gifts of insight, clarity and the > blueprint for human evolvement along with the form wealth of the TSA > being placed in the hands of very few people. These officers remain > unmonitored, unchecked and unrestrained personages. They give no > acknowledgment or hint of their intention. More important, they have > never affirmed being only the 'custodians', not 'owners' of the > Theosophical Society and it's mandate. > > TSA MANAGEMENT is known to have used nefarious, illegal, sub-Rosa > tactics, playing to the fears of the vulnerable and pandering with tomes > of high sounding cliche's to the ears of the uncaring in their naked > grab to consolidate power and control. All the physical assets, the > publishing voice and finally the soul of the Theosophical Society in > America have been suborned. Do you see something similar at work here to > the National Socialists ? > > Bart, I know you are a supporter of the Wheatonists and I will always > defend to the best of my ability, your right to express your opinion. No > matter that your position viz 'the Wheatonists' is abhorrent to me at > the core of my being. Please Bart, do not try to ascend the high moral > ground with talk of your "Recommendations for > inclusions …", "Official contention …" and the oft used, "Wheaton's > position is …" > > Yes Bart, I respect your right to a view, I do not accept any extraneous > spiritual authority of the ilk described above. My own discernment and > thus the responsibility for my actions bodes me well. > > In closing, is there a religion or society higher than the truth …? > Thinks me not. This post was truly beyond my verbal abilities. All I can do now and stand and applaud. However, one word did intrigue me - Wheatonist. Sounds like some new kind of breakfast cereal. Or some group similar to the Shakers. THe Wheatonists- they lived entirely on the husks of wheat and were celibate. Not in the sexual manner, but in the intellectual manner. They professed and talked and wrote in such a high and lofty intellectual tone, no one wanted to join them. They died out sometime in the year 2010. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:21:18 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <33fbd75d.12072075@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron wrote: >I've finally figured it out, Tom. You're about 110 yrs old with ideas that >would fit the times of 1887. A relic among us. Take care, lover. Does that mean you disagree wth something I have written? If so, could you go into some detail about the basis of your disagreement? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:21:34 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1193 Message-ID: <33fad5dd.11688534@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kirsten wrote: >The conversation on this list is so tacky and childish. Slander and >lawsuits...the last cry of the insulted. You people aren't >theosophists, you're bored. I work with someone that just likes to >instigate unrest and derisiveness and he does it because he wants to be >a star. He likes to be talked about and disliked why?...I don't know. >But I see the same thing going on here, not in private by email, but >here where the public comes, to discuss theosophy with like-minded >individuals, and then leaves because there are none. bye. Kirsten obviously doesn't understand. It's not the quality of the discussions that matters. It's how free the speech is. Wait a minute - isn't that the same attitude that children being disciplined (having their freedom be limited) by their parents have? Maybe Kirsten has a point, after all. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:51:41 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: K advised Indian Politicians Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970816205141.00efba58@mail.eden.com> At 12:15 PM 8/16/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-08-16 08:46:08 EDT, you write: > >> I am sure some of his suggestions >>may have been acted on and helped the country. >> >> > >Or made it a bigger mess than it already was. > >Chuck the Heretic > >From what I have seen, the conditions of the poor in India has considerably improved during the last 50 years. I think it is one of the positive things that has happened in India. Almost 30 years ago, there was a move by the local government in Madras to condemn and acquire the Adyar TS estate and build low income housing. By a stroke of luck for TS, they did not pursue it. ............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:17:55 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970816211755.00f00564@mail.eden.com> At 01:29 PM 8/16/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> If you have followed all the developments surrounding the changes to >> the bylaws which were made some time ago, you should have noticed that more >> than one attorney member of TS has come to the conclusion that bylaw changes >> were null and void because TSA itself did not follow its own bylaws when >> changes were made. > > Other than Sy, who else was there? I had read Sy's letters when he sent >it out, and showed it to several attorneys, as well as the by-laws, and >they disagreed with his conclusions (they did, however, point out to me >the major flaw in the National by-laws, which I have been campaigning to >have changed: it only requires a simple majority of the Board of >Directors to dissolve a Lodge (it requires 2/3 to throw out an >individual member). > There was a document that I believe was sent out by a committee of presidents of a couple of lodges and there this was mentioned. This was subsequent to the changes to the bylaws were approved. I am sure Sy can provide you with a copy of this if you contact him. I don't have it with me readily and I am quoting from my memory. >> If there comes a time when a litigation becomes necessary because TSA >> tries to seize the property of a lodge, then we will see these issues and >> other related ones brought up. > > It depends. There are very few Lodges with an amount of property >sufficient to be worth a lawsuit. New York already has language in its >by-laws allowing National to take over the property (but NOT to remove >it from the city) should the New York Lodge be dissolved, so I don't >think it would stand up in court very well. I don't know about the other >Lodges with considerable property (Seattle, the camps, etc.). > Already the first instance of closure of lodge/center is in progress at Stil-Light. It will set the trend how the mechanics and logistics would be handled in practice especially to what extent it would be controlled from Wheaton as against the local needs and local preferences. Worth watching. .................mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:17:56 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970816211756.00f022cc@mail.eden.com> At 01:29 PM 8/16/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> If you have followed all the developments surrounding the changes to >> the bylaws which were made some time ago, you should have noticed that more >> than one attorney member of TS has come to the conclusion that bylaw changes >> were null and void because TSA itself did not follow its own bylaws when >> changes were made. > > Other than Sy, who else was there? I had read Sy's letters when he sent >it out, and showed it to several attorneys, as well as the by-laws, and >they disagreed with his conclusions (they did, however, point out to me >the major flaw in the National by-laws, which I have been campaigning to >have changed: it only requires a simple majority of the Board of >Directors to dissolve a Lodge (it requires 2/3 to throw out an >individual member). > >> If there comes a time when a litigation becomes necessary because TSA >> tries to seize the property of a lodge, then we will see these issues and >> other related ones brought up. > > It depends. There are very few Lodges with an amount of property >sufficient to be worth a lawsuit. New York already has language in its >by-laws allowing National to take over the property (but NOT to remove >it from the city) should the New York Lodge be dissolved, so I don't >think it would stand up in court very well. I don't know about the other >Lodges with considerable property (Seattle, the camps, etc.). > > Bart Lidofsky The other major issue that has not caught the attention of the membership is the fate of all the property and assets and their management if and when the National Charter is withdrawn/cancelled by GC. It has happened in Canada, Denmark and some other countries and it cannot be ruled out in the next 30 - 40 years. In such an eventuality the trustees of TIT which will hold the assets of all lodges, centers, camps, etc and they are not answerable to anyone -- man or god and can almost get away with anything, as has happened in other Trusts with a lot of property and money. ....................MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:17:58 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1193 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970816211758.00f03ff8@mail.eden.com> At 11:26 AM 8/16/97 -0400, Kirsten wrote: >The conversation on this list is so tacky and childish. Slander and >lawsuits...the last cry of the insulted. You people aren't >theosophists, you're bored. I work with someone that just likes to >instigate unrest and derisiveness and he does it because he wants to be >a star. He likes to be talked about and disliked why?...I don't know. >But I see the same thing going on here, not in private by email, but >here where the public comes, to discuss theosophy with like-minded >individuals, and then leaves because there are none. bye. > This is the grand-daddy/grand-ma of all theosophical lists and is the unmoderated one at that. Anyone and every one is welcome to say what they want to. No one is there to tell anyone what is right and what is not. Many of those here are newbees to Theosophy -- many have been around several decades and is a mix of the best and most experienced in cyberspace. May be it is a good idea for you to bring up any specific question, issue or problem that you want to be discussed. If you post it, then you will find the fast and quick response and the wealth of information that you can get here. As I mentioned in one of the posts, I have learnt in 2 years many pieces of information that I have not learnt in over 40 years. Stick around for a little while and you will be convinced of the usefulness of this list. There is no substitute in cyberspace. BTW, this list is not supported financially by any TS organization. So it is outside the control or influence of any TS organization. Its owner John Mead set it up three years ago so that we have a forum when any matter relating to Theosophy and TS can be discussion without interference from anyone including John Mead. You won't even see him except very rarely and to deal with some unusual problem. ........................mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:22:00 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Sexism vs. Truth Message-ID: <340411e9.27060394@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Bart wrote: > 2) JUST BECAUSE ONE GROUP HAS A DIFFERENCE IN >GENERAL WITH ANOTHER GROUP DOES NOT MEAN THAT ANY GIVEN >INDIVIDUAL FROM ONE GROUP HAS THAT DIFFERENCE FROM ANY GIVEN INDIVIDUAL FROM THE OTHER GROUP. I get a chuckle out of feeling the need to say that I agree with that, since I have already written the same thing so many times in the face of such a determined effort to say that I never did. > The problem that many people had with your early posts here was >that, regardless of your meaning, you were saying that we SHOULD judge >individuals based on generalities. By no stretch of anyone's imagination but those who wished to deliberately mischaracterize what I wrote could that interpretation be placed on what I wrote, since I explicitly wrote exactly the opposite many times. As I said, I could care less about offending those who are going to be _that_ dishonest. >Specifically, you were saying that >women were generally more submissive than men, and therefore women >should not be in positions of political authority. And that is judging >individuals by generalities, and at that a generality which is not even >well-demonstrated. How is that advocating the judging of individuals by generalities? If women are _generally_ (assuming I really have to use such a redundant word to make myself clear, for which I do not take responsibility) more submissive than men are (as I believe they are), then _generally_ they should not be in positions of political authority. How does that not leave room for exceptions? The determination of those who insist on mischaracterizing that to mean that I believe there shouldn't be exceptions, is, to make a major understatement, untheosophical, assuming being theosophical has anything to do with seeking truth. The extent to which those who disagreed with me tried to take the moral high road and insist, not that I was mistaken, in which case the discussion might have remained good-spirited, but that I was sexist, in which case it didn't, was ridiculous. I immediately lost all respect for those who thereby clearly demonstrated their own sexism, and quickly realized that there was no reason to care whether or not I offended them. The best I could do in such a situation is make the most of it and amuse myself by how they thought they were doing the anti-sexism cause any good. > As I mentioned at the time, even among the Lubavitcher Hasidic >Jews, not a group noted for equal treatment of the sexes, their rabbi, >Menachem Schneersohn, stated that you must treat women as individuals, >and if a woman is better suited to be a doctor rather than a homemaker, >than that woman should be a doctor. He also said that if a woman is >better suited to being a homemaker than being a doctor, even if she is >capable of being a doctor, she should not be forced into an occupation >for which she is not better suited. I'll bet anyone I could find 10 posts of mine that said the same thing. Why would anyone subscribe to a list that supposedly discusses Theosophy and then have _that_ little regard for putting truth first? I wonder what such people mean by "Theosophy." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:59:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <45y41AAEBc9zEw5v@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <34194d67.57208397@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>, Tom Robertson writes >Are you saying that calling someone who did nothing more than list >some differences he saw between men and women a "sexist bastard" is >"brotherly" and "freedom of speech and freedom of opinion," but >suggesting the possibility (which is what the word "maybe" does) that >you might have had something to do with your dismissal from a >committee on the TS is unbrotherly and shouldn't be said? I remarked once before that your main interest in posting to this list appeared to be a desire to be contentious. The above reinforces my opinion, and along with others on the list, my correspondence with you will now cease. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:43:01 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Ancient Wisdom Revived Message-ID: <33F63B05.41E0@dmv.com> Has anyone read this history of the Theosophical movement written by Bruce Campbell? It has some very interesting historical notes. I bought it at the Baltimore lodge bookstore. Campbell is not a member of any theosophical organization and seems to have written the book objectively. Today in Hollywood they say that no publicity is worse than bad publicity, and after reading Campbell's book it seems that they could have learned that from the life of HPB. BTW, I really don't understand why so many are so 'nervous' about discussions on this list. It seems that most of the posts of late are about everybodies rights to their oppinions and what the Wheaton people may or may not think. At the Baltimore TS lodge lectures were open to any topic, and the consensus was such that the members would welcome ideas on the revision of theosophy even expressing interest in new theosophical groups, thinking that spin-offs from the TS were a strength of the movement as a whole. Let's face it, theosophists of any kind are rare birds, and brothehood is not an elective it is imperative. later... Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 02:00:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Ancient Wisdom Revived Message-ID: In message <33F63B05.41E0@dmv.com>, Vincent Beall writes >At the Baltimore TS lodge lectures were open to >any topic, and the consensus was such that the members would welcome >ideas on the revision of theosophy even expressing interest in new >theosophical groups, thinking that spin-offs from the TS were a strength >of the movement as a whole. > >Let's face it, theosophists of any kind are rare birds, and brothehood >is not an elective it is imperative. Time for you to join TI? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:08:28 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Ancient Wisdom Revived Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970817040828.00dc4a78@mail.eden.com> At 07:43 PM 8/16/97 -0400, Vincent Beall wrote: >Has anyone read this history of the Theosophical movement written by >Bruce Campbell? It has some very interesting historical notes. I bought >it at the Baltimore lodge bookstore. Campbell is not a member of any >theosophical organization and seems to have written the book >objectively. Today in Hollywood they say that no publicity is worse than >bad publicity, and after reading Campbell's book it seems that they >could have learned that from the life of HPB. > >BTW, I really don't understand why so many are so 'nervous' about >discussions on this list. It seems that most of the posts of late are >about everybodies rights to their oppinions and what the Wheaton people >may or may not think. At the Baltimore TS lodge lectures were open to >any topic, and the consensus was such that the members would welcome >ideas on the revision of theosophy even expressing interest in new >theosophical groups, thinking that spin-offs from the TS were a strength >of the movement as a whole. > >Let's face it, theosophists of any kind are rare birds, and brothehood >is not an elective it is imperative. > >later... > >Vincent > >-- > >vincent@dmv.com > >http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ During the fast growth times, TS and its leaders had always been high profiled and were involved in a number of issues widely discussed, criticised, complained about. Such activities brought on a lot of free publicity. Surely during HPB's days she was the non-conformist and raised a lot of controversy and such controversy did help the TS to grow. Incessently talking to ourself in a conformative way may look nice but is it productive of results both for ourselves and the theosophical movement. Some may feel it is so. I for one don't. I agree with you that real theosophists are rare birds indeed and they grow in freedom not in any sheepish/mushroom environment. ..............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:32:31 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <34126b87.49691636@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Alan wrote: >In message <34194d67.57208397@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>, Tom >Robertson writes >>Are you saying that calling someone who did nothing more than list >>some differences he saw between men and women a "sexist bastard" is >>"brotherly" and "freedom of speech and freedom of opinion," but >>suggesting the possibility (which is what the word "maybe" does) that >>you might have had something to do with your dismissal from a >>committee on the TS is unbrotherly and shouldn't be said? >I remarked once before that your main interest in posting to this list >appeared to be a desire to be contentious. The above reinforces my >opinion, and along with others on the list, my correspondence with you >will now cease. When those who are 100 times as nasty and contentious as I am agree with you, you applaud their freedom of expression. If you were spiritually pure, you would do the same when someone asks you a question to which you have no answer. You have renewed my faith in the TS. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:37:52 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Ancient Wisdom Revived Message-ID: <199708171237.IAA18817@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Vincent Beall > Subject: Ancient Wisdom Revived > Date: Saturday, August 16, 1997 6:43 PM > > Has anyone read this history of the Theosophical movement written by > Bruce Campbell? It has some very interesting historical notes. I bought > it at the Baltimore lodge bookstore. Campbell is not a member of any > theosophical organization and seems to have written the book > objectively. Today in Hollywood they say that no publicity is worse than > bad publicity, and after reading Campbell's book it seems that they > could have learned that from the life of HPB. > Yes, I read it on the recommendation of KPJohnson. I had asked several people for for a good history of TS and most seemed to think anything written would be biased. Another great book, if you can get it, (out-of-print) is Candles in the Sun by Lutyens. She was there for all the Krishnamurti activities and finally left when he did. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:28:32 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Ancient Wisdom Revived Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970817142832.00f0c304@mail.eden.com> At 08:37 AM 8/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: Vincent Beall >> Subject: Ancient Wisdom Revived >> Date: Saturday, August 16, 1997 6:43 PM >> >> Has anyone read this history of the Theosophical movement written by >> Bruce Campbell? It has some very interesting historical notes. I bought >> it at the Baltimore lodge bookstore. Campbell is not a member of any >> theosophical organization and seems to have written the book >> objectively. Today in Hollywood they say that no publicity is worse than >> bad publicity, and after reading Campbell's book it seems that they >> could have learned that from the life of HPB. >> >Yes, I read it on the recommendation of KPJohnson. I had >asked several people for for a good history of TS and most seemed >to think anything written would be biased. > >Another great book, if you can get it, (out-of-print) is Candles in the Sun by Lutyens. >She was there for all the Krishnamurti activities and finally left when he did. > >A. Safron I have not seen Campbell's book and as one interested in historical matters, very much like to read it. If you have a copy and want to sell it, I would buy it. Let me know. Candles in the Sun is a good recommendation. I believe that it is a book in demand in libraries. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 10:21:14 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: It has occurred to me . . . Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970817152114.00b3f52c@mail.eden.com> >From time to time, there may have been certain factual information about TS/TSA and its present or past leaders which may be inaccurate that was posted here. It could possibly due to the poster being unaware of the full and accurate details, because I believe no one wants to post inaccurate info and be embarassed in public. But even when such things have happened, we have never seen any officer from Wheaton coming posting a correction. For example if in a print publication, something like this had happened, you would have seen a letter to the editor from Wheaton pointing out the inaccuracy and correction. Not monitoring (I don't know if any officer at Wheaton is doing it) is not going to help TS or TSA or Theosophy, IMHO. Only time will tell. mkr At 05:52 PM 8/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >A. Safron wrote: >> >> Fellow Theos-l Posters: >> >> My recent posts with Bart Lifdolsky have often left >> me puzzled. He seemed to be twisting what I said. > > If I have, then I apologize. The only place where that might have been >true was when you compared behavior of the TS and that of Nazi Germany, >and qualified your statement in the next sentence. I took the initial >sentence, because you used such an emotionally loaded example, which, in >my opinion, overrides any subsequent explanation. If there are any other >examples, I will either explain my statement, or retract it. > >> And then he openly says that he would not >> recommend this list to anyone. Then why is he >> on this list? > > I did not say that I would not recommend this list to anyone. I said >that I would not recommend this list in a publication aimed at members >of the TSA. If I were building a comprehensive list of Theosophy on the >Internet, I would certainly mention this list. > > As far as the reason why I am on this list, when the subject actually >gets to Theosophy, then there are opinions that I value expressed. > >> My guess is that on his own or at the suggestion >> of someone else, he has been harrassing those on >> the list and making those on the list look like black >> rebels that are about to destroy the TSA Empire. > > Oh, there is no need for THAT. > >> Think about it. Why would someone diss this list? >> Because they are deadly afraid that someone is >> going to say the truth. > > It is not the factual information that I am upset about. It is the >casual, snide, put-downs, often accompanied by taking phrases out of >context, and twisting them in ways Gracie Allen would find ridiculous. > >> Doss might print a historical paper that would >> reveal something. KPJ might say something negative >> about the Masters. Even Tom, might say that all >> women should kneel at his feet. And Chuck, the babe, >> and me, A. Safron might talk about S&M. > > And I have no personal problem with any of this (well, maybe with >Tom...) > >> Dr. Bain? This would be a really good time for >> you to step in and talk about TI. > > Actually, I did state that if what Dr. Bain says about his being >dismissed from the TS in England is true, then, in my opinion, he was >definitely wronged. He mentioned the possibility of posting his letter >of dismissal; I am willing to take his word for it as to the contents >(whatever else I have said about him, I have never called him a liar, >although I have disagreed with many of his conclusions), which is why I >didn't specifically request that he post it, but if he posts it anyway, >I would be interested in reading it. > > Bart > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:26:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1193 Message-ID: <970817132621_81145571@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-16 16:48:43 EDT, you write: > Maybe >Kirsten has a point, after all. Yes, but her hair covers it. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:28:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: K advised Indian Politicians Message-ID: <970817132816_-1705571740@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-16 18:13:04 EDT, you write: >Almost 30 years ago, there was a move by the local government in Madras to >condemn and acquire the Adyar TS estate and build low income housing. By a >stroke of luck for TS, they did not pursue it. > There is a rumor, and just that, that the Adyar estate is actually a diplomatic property and thus not really part of India. I don't know if it's true or not and if anyone has any info on that I think we'd all be interested. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:08:19 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Ancient Wisdom Revived Message-ID: <33fb26d2.985079@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Doss wrote: >I have not seen Campbell's book and as one interested in historical >matters, very much like to read it. If you have a copy and want to sell it, I >would buy it. Let me know. I found it in the Seattle Public Library, so other libraries might have it. It was interesting. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:43:54 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: <33F7628A.37D9@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > At 01:29 PM 8/16/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >> If you have followed all the developments surrounding the changes to > >> the bylaws which were made some time ago, you should have noticed that more > >> than one attorney member of TS has come to the conclusion that bylaw changes > >> were null and void because TSA itself did not follow its own bylaws when > >> changes were made. > > > > Other than Sy, who else was there? I had read Sy's letters when he sent > >it out, and showed it to several attorneys, as well as the by-laws, and > >they disagreed with his conclusions (they did, however, point out to me > >the major flaw in the National by-laws, which I have been campaigning to > >have changed: it only requires a simple majority of the Board of > >Directors to dissolve a Lodge (it requires 2/3 to throw out an > >individual member). > > > There was a document that I believe was sent out by a committee of > presidents of a couple of lodges and there this was mentioned. This was I was referring to your statement, "More than one attorney...". I have seen the document to which you refer, and do not deny its existence. But, as far as I know, the only attorney involved was Sy. You say that my knowledge is incorrect. It is significant of other attorney members came to the same finding, and I am therefore interested if I am incorrect. On the other hand, I know as well as anybody else that these are personal messages and not printed articles, and therefore one generally doesn't put into them the same degree of care that one might put into an article, and therefore it is common to rely on memory, which can play tricks, rather than looking up the facts. The trick is not letting your ego get in the way if it turns out you were wrong. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:49:00 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Sexism vs. Truth Message-ID: <33F763BC.F1@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > >Specifically, you were saying that > >women were generally more submissive than men, and therefore women > >should not be in positions of political authority. And that is judging > >individuals by generalities, and at that a generality which is not even > >well-demonstrated. > > How is that advocating the judging of individuals by generalities? If > women are _generally_ (assuming I really have to use such a redundant > word to make myself clear, for which I do not take responsibility) > more submissive than men are (as I believe they are), then _generally_ > they should not be in positions of political authority. How does that > not leave room for exceptions? Once again, regardless of your intent, your messages sounded as if you were advocating ABSOLUTELY women should not be in positions of political authority. And, once again, that may very well not be what you meant, and, according to you, it is definitely not what you meant. I personally think that it was a matter of lack of clarity in language. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:54:56 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: K advised Indian Politicians Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970817205456.00e4a2c8@mail.eden.com> At 01:29 PM 8/17/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-08-16 18:13:04 EDT, you write: > >>Almost 30 years ago, there was a move by the local government in Madras to >>condemn and acquire the Adyar TS estate and build low income housing. By a >>stroke of luck for TS, they did not pursue it. >> >> > >There is a rumor, and just that, that the Adyar estate is actually a >diplomatic property and thus not really part of India. I don't know if it's >true or not and if anyone has any info on that I think we'd all be >interested. > >Chuck the Heretic It was never and can never be anything other than ordinary property owned by a local tax exempt organization. .............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:56:21 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Ancient Wisdom Revived Message-ID: <33F76575.3EDD@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > Yes, I read it on the recommendation of KPJohnson. I had > asked several people for for a good history of TS and most seemed > to think anything written would be biased. All historical works have some bias. The key thing to remember is that not all historical works are EQUALLY biased. It is an important goal of any good historian to try to minimize the effects of bias on the historical works. If Paul Johnson states a work is relatively unbiased, I am inclined to take his word for it, until shown otherwise. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:55:50 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Ancient Wisdom Revived Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970817205550.00e4fb60@mail.eden.com> At 04:17 PM 8/17/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>I have not seen Campbell's book and as one interested in historical >matters, very much like to read it. If you have a copy and want to sell it, I >would buy it. Let me know. > >I found it in the Seattle Public Library, so other libraries might >have it. It was interesting. > Thanks for the info. Looks like it is generally available. ..........mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:58:07 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970817205807.00e3f840@mail.eden.com> At 04:45 PM 8/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >> At 01:29 PM 8/16/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >> >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >> If you have followed all the developments surrounding the changes to >> >> the bylaws which were made some time ago, you should have noticed that more >> >> than one attorney member of TS has come to the conclusion that bylaw changes >> >> were null and void because TSA itself did not follow its own bylaws when >> >> changes were made. >> > >> > Other than Sy, who else was there? I had read Sy's letters when he sent >> >it out, and showed it to several attorneys, as well as the by-laws, and >> >they disagreed with his conclusions (they did, however, point out to me >> >the major flaw in the National by-laws, which I have been campaigning to >> >have changed: it only requires a simple majority of the Board of >> >Directors to dissolve a Lodge (it requires 2/3 to throw out an >> >individual member). >> > >> There was a document that I believe was sent out by a committee of >> presidents of a couple of lodges and there this was mentioned. This was > > I was referring to your statement, "More than one attorney...". I have >seen the document to which you refer, and do not deny its existence. >But, as far as I know, the only attorney involved was Sy. You say that >my knowledge is incorrect. It is significant of other attorney members >came to the same finding, and I am therefore interested if I am >incorrect. On the other hand, I know as well as anybody else that these >are personal messages and not printed articles, and therefore one >generally doesn't put into them the same degree of care that one might >put into an article, and therefore it is common to rely on memory, which >can play tricks, rather than looking up the facts. The trick is not >letting your ego get in the way if it turns out you were wrong. > > Bart Lidofsky My recollection is that it was more than personal msg. I believe this was communicated officially to Wheaton. Sy may be able to provide you with the info if you are interested. ..............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:00:30 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: It has occurred to me . . . Message-ID: <33F7666E.3330@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > >From time to time, there may have been certain factual information about > TS/TSA and its present or past leaders which may be inaccurate that was > posted here. It could possibly due to the poster being unaware of the full > and accurate details, because I believe no one wants to post inaccurate info > and be embarassed in public. > > But even when such things have happened, we have never seen any officer from > Wheaton coming posting a correction. > > For example if in a print publication, something like this had happened, you > would have seen a letter to the editor from Wheaton pointing out the > inaccuracy and correction. Please note that, due to the nature of this group (an email list serve), this is more like a discussion group than printed media. This is, of course, my personal opinion; I hope that if it ever comes to court (and if it does, I hope it's some OTHER mailing list group) the courts take the same point of view. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:08:06 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: It has occurred to me . . . Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970817210806.00d9d0e4@mail.eden.com> At 05:02 PM 8/17/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >> >From time to time, there may have been certain factual information about >> TS/TSA and its present or past leaders which may be inaccurate that was >> posted here. It could possibly due to the poster being unaware of the full >> and accurate details, because I believe no one wants to post inaccurate info >> and be embarassed in public. >> >> But even when such things have happened, we have never seen any officer from >> Wheaton coming posting a correction. >> >> For example if in a print publication, something like this had happened, you >> would have seen a letter to the editor from Wheaton pointing out the >> inaccuracy and correction. > > Please note that, due to the nature of this group (an email list >serve), this is more like a discussion group than printed media. This >is, of course, my personal opinion; I hope that if it ever comes to >court (and if it does, I hope it's some OTHER mailing list group) the >courts take the same point of view. > > Bart Lidofsky I am not a lawyer. But from a lay man's point of view, from the point of informing and communicating with those interested, I think discussion lists are as influential as print media and of late I see discussion lists are increasing in their usefulness and effectiveness. ..........mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:05:59 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: "Adyar, Inc." Message-ID: <3tG7wFAXP49zEw4+@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970817205456.00e4a2c8@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >>There is a rumor, and just that, that the Adyar estate is actually a >>diplomatic property and thus not really part of India. I don't know if it's >>true or not and if anyone has any info on that I think we'd all be >>interested. >> >>Chuck the Heretic > >It was never and can never be anything other than ordinary property owned by >a local tax exempt organization. The Adyar Rules (which are also the Articles of Incorporation of 1906) are available within the TI website below. Technically we could almost call it "Adyar, Inc." !! or at least "The Theosophical Society, Inc." It was set up as a non-profit corporation Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 07:44:51 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Ancient Wisdom Revived Message-ID: <199708180020.UAA22764@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Ancient Wisdom Revived > Date: Saturday, August 16, 1997 11:11 PM > > At 07:43 PM 8/16/97 -0400, Vincent Beall wrote: > >Has anyone read this history of the Theosophical movement written by > >Bruce Campbell? > > I agree with you that real theosophists are rare birds indeed and they grow > in freedom not in any sheepish/mushroom environment. > > ..............mkr > Doss, you may have something there. The sheep/mushroom clone. Covered with curly wool, it is rooted to the ground and thrives in dark, damp places. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 09:07:12 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: nauseating misogynistic generalizations Message-ID: <199708181606.JAA13638@apple.com> >How is that advocating the judging of individuals by generalities? If >women are _generally_ (assuming I really have to use such a redundant >word to make myself clear, for which I do not take responsibility) >more submissive than men are (as I believe they are), then _generally_ >they should not be in positions of political authority. How does that >not leave room for exceptions? Hoist on your own petard, eh Tom? -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:33:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: K advised Indian Politicians Message-ID: <970818132949_-1336429193@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-17 16:59:13 EDT, you write: >It was never and can never be anything other than ordinary property owned by >a local tax exempt organization. > Well, that may not be the case. When it was originally purchased, HPB and the Colonel were travelling with diplomatic passports and they may have used that status in the purchase. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:01:38 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: nauseating misogynistic generalizations Message-ID: <340789e0.9911655@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> >>How is that advocating the judging of individuals by generalities? If >>women are _generally_ (assuming I really have to use such a redundant >>word to make myself clear, for which I do not take responsibility) >>more submissive than men are (as I believe they are), then _generally_ >>they should not be in positions of political authority. How does that >>not leave room for exceptions? >Hoist on your own petard, eh Tom? Does that mean you disagree with something that I wrote? If so, could you go into some detail about what? A real Theosophist values truth over what is popular and in spite of how nauseating it is. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:14:07 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: K advised Indian Politicians Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970818181407.00f6c0c4@mail.eden.com> At 01:34 PM 8/18/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-08-17 16:59:13 EDT, you write: > >>It was never and can never be anything other than ordinary property owned by >>a local tax exempt organization. >> >> > >Well, that may not be the case. When it was originally purchased, HPB and >the Colonel were travelling with diplomatic passports and they may have used >that status in the purchase. > >Chuck the Heretic > Good point. The original property of I believe 10 acres and some buildings were originally purchased by a group of local Theosophists and then was transferred to the Theosophical Society. Later it was during Annie Besant's time she bought rest of the property and now the total acreage is about 300+. I have not seen any indication of the property being in any way a diplomatic one. This is a good question for historian to dig into. ..............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:50:32 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1193 Message-ID: <199708181850.LAA17528@palrel3.hp.com> Kirsten wrote: > The conversation on this list is so tacky and childish. Slander and > lawsuits...the last cry of the insulted. You people aren't > theosophists, you're bored. I work with someone that just likes to > instigate unrest and derisiveness and he does it because he wants to be > a star. He likes to be talked about and disliked why?...I don't know. > But I see the same thing going on here, not in private by email, but > here where the public comes, to discuss theosophy with like-minded > individuals, and then leaves because there are none. bye. There's more to people than their irritating foibles. Like Doss, I'd encourage you to stick it out a little bit. Behind an act of nastiness is insecurity. Some people will not respond to kindness; at least not during your time of interaction. But you'd be surprised at the number of people who do. I do sympathize with you however. People can be frank without being sarcastic and insulting. The only thing sarcasm does is look clever, make communication harder and make people more defensive. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:38:00 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Late message TU Message-ID: <33F8C0B8.19BB@gil.net> Greetings one and all ! My delay in answering Barts message last weekend was due to my not understanding the posting fine points. Thanks John Mead for the help ! First I do agree with Titus Roth in his latest message (1193). Further I believe establishing the base lines for interaction is also important. IMO Bart was trying to bully and threaten me into silence. That diatribe finished and if I haven't worn out your colective patience please read on, Friday 15:20 Hiya Bart my friend, > Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:50:14 -0400 > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Bart and the Nazi's > Ken Malkin wrote: > > > In closing, is there a religion or society higher than the truth …? > > Thinks me not. > > > I hope you can back up the statements you made. I know of at >least one person at Wheaton who reads this list, and you made a number >of statements that go beyond opinion, and to the point of making you >liable to a lawsuit for slander if you cannot back them up >(specifically, allegations of illegality). Bart, do you think that there is anyone that does not know "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING?". What do you take us for, ignorant minions of a cybergod intent on fractal fragmentation? My friend, the short answer is, sue away.... I'm sure that when it comes to a "Suppoena duces tecum" interesting things will out. Indeed, if Wheaton finds something they disagree with, THEY have the ability to threaten, NOT YOU! REMEMBER yourself my friend. You are just one of the billions, not the one! > > > If the people at Wheaton did in fact act illegally, then why >don't you call the authorities and have them arrested? Why don't you >start a class action lawsuit? > A class action suit would cost over $ 200,000 to initiate. If the Wheatonists sued me, I could defend myself for $ 25,000 in Florida. I could pay for the defense. Then the IRS would stick their nose in, probably find reason to look at the TS in a manner the management would not desire to have occur, the 'State of Illinois' would have their look, the statute of limitations has not run on the by-law changes, of course the US Justice Department their walk around, all Bart, I'm sure, you are well familiar with. Everything said under deposition would be published on this list, on a Web Page, to the individual membership at large (the membership list would finally have to be made public as the MANAGEMENT can only act if they represent the majority by vote. The State of Illinois, and the Federal Tax Code both state in summation, that all membership lists of "NON-PROFIT" corporations must be made available to the individual member upon written request. Lastly, No individual was spoken of if I remember..., see the by-laws... > Together, these facts and several I have not mentioned, would be part of any legal action. I'm sure all of this "Legal stuff" you so blithely throw about will make YOU very popular with the Wheatonists. After all, there have been so many lawsuits they have instituted already. Bart, stop being a pisher. Grow up, smell the roses and get a grip ! I have said basically the same things on this list in the past (some even worse), I believe infact, as you can see "rendering unto Caesar..." No more inane retorts Bart, no more dancing around a point that changes as the walls get close, no more threats, just walk the walk or stop talking the talk ! My peace profound, Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 97 22:09:00 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes Message-ID: For your information, I found this on the net under theosophy on the Spirit Web: These vast periods of evolution have great beings of enormous stature looking after them. Evolution isn't just a series of random mutations, but proceeds in a coordinated Plan. Sub-races usually have a spiritual Master incarnate among them to help guide or create a religion. Each Root-Race has a great guide called a Manu who among other things incarnates to help set the physical type of each race. Most of these Manus and Masters are known in our history. An entire World-Period of its seven Root-Races has a great being called the Lord of the World looking after it. Moving up the hierarchy, an entire Round is coordinated by a Round Manu, and an entire Chain of seven globes is coordinated by several Chain Manus. Our entire series of seven Chains forms a Scheme of evolution. The one we are in now we call the Earth or Terrene Scheme. There are other Schemes in our solar system which the other physical planets other than Earth, Mercury, and Mars, and many etheric planets belong to. Our solar system is composed of ten Schemes total. Each Scheme goes through seven Chains, and is presently in a particular one of them with its seven globes. Of the ten Schemes, only seven have any physical planets. The seven principal Schemes or planets within them form the "Seven Sacred Planets" and the "Seven Rays" of our solar system. Here is a brief description of each Scheme, which is generally named after its densest planet in its current Chain: (1) The Vulcan Scheme: Presently in its third Chain, it has one physical globe (the planet Vulcan inside Mercury's orbit), two astral, two lower mental, and two Causal globes. (2) The Venus Scheme: Presently in its fifth Chain, it also has one physical (Venus itself), two astral, two mental, and two Causal globes. (3) The Earth Scheme: This is our Scheme presently in its fourth Chain, with three physical (Mercury, Earth, and Mars), two astral, and two mental globes. (4), (5), and (6) The Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus Schemes: All three of these Schemes are in their third Chain, and each of them have one physical, two astral, two lower mental, and two Causal globes. (7) The Neptune Scheme: This Scheme is in its fourth Chain, and like ours has three physical, two astral, and two . . . Keith: We haven't discussed the schemes laid out in great detail by HPB in the SD which were an attempt to "correct" ESOTERIC BUDHISM by Sinnett. I think with the current interest of many in astrology, it might be interesting to deleve into these deep and promising waters. Alice Bailey developed her own system of Esoteric Astrology which is not directly related to HPB's schemes of evolution, as far as I can tell. The planets exist on an etheric, astral, intellecutal (noospheric), buddhic, and atmic levels just as we do in our physcial bodies. The solar system and beyond echo this scheme of interpenentrating bodies, evolving at different planes and for different purposes. Life waves move from planet to planet in our solar system and if we may speculate like the science fiction writers from galaxy to galaxy. Has anyone studied this in detail? Does anyone want to study it on-line? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:40:36 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >The planets exist on an etheric, astral, intellecutal (noospheric), buddhic, >and atmic levels just as we do in our physcial bodies. The solar system and >beyond echo this scheme of interpenentrating bodies, evolving at different >planes and for different purposes. So it is said. How can we verify any of this? Is there an obvious practical application? > >Life waves move from planet to planet in our solar system and if we may >speculate like the science fiction writers from galaxy to galaxy. This also may well be true, so how does it help us here and now? > >Has anyone studied this in detail? Does anyone want to study it on-line? I think someone (like you!) would need to elucidate by starting at the beginning (or near it) and explaining the ideas in words more familiar to the ignorant(-ish) student(s). Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:06:51 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970819010651.00f97150@mail.eden.com> At 06:43 PM 8/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >For your information, I found this on the net under theosophy on the Spirit >Web: > >These vast periods of evolution have great beings of enormous stature looking >after them. Evolution isn't just a series of random mutations, but proceeds in >a coordinated Plan. Sub-races usually have a spiritual Master incarnate among >them to help guide or create a religion. Each Root-Race has a great guide >called a Manu who among other things incarnates to help set the physical type >of each race. Most of these Manus and Masters are known in our history. An >entire World-Period of its seven Root-Races has a great being called the Lord >of the World looking after it. Moving up the hierarchy, an entire Round is >coordinated by a Round Manu, and an entire Chain of seven globes is >coordinated by several Chain Manus. >Our entire series of seven Chains forms a Scheme of evolution. The one we are >in now we call the Earth or Terrene Scheme. There are other Schemes in our >solar system which the other physical planets other than Earth, Mercury, and >Mars, and many etheric planets belong to. Our solar system is composed of ten >Schemes total. Each Scheme goes through seven Chains, and is presently in a >particular one of them with its seven globes. Of the ten Schemes, only seven >have any physical planets. The seven principal Schemes or planets within them >form the "Seven Sacred Planets" and the "Seven Rays" of our solar system. Here >is a brief description of each Scheme, which is generally named after its >densest planet in its current Chain: >(1) The Vulcan Scheme: Presently in its third Chain, it has one physical globe >(the planet Vulcan inside Mercury's orbit), two astral, two lower mental, and >two Causal globes. (2) The Venus Scheme: Presently in its fifth Chain, it also >has one physical (Venus itself), two astral, two mental, and two Causal >globes. (3) The Earth Scheme: This is our Scheme presently in its fourth >Chain, with three physical (Mercury, Earth, and Mars), two astral, and two >mental globes. (4), (5), and (6) The Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus Schemes: All >three of these Schemes are in their third Chain, and each of them have one >physical, two astral, two lower mental, and two Causal globes. (7) The Neptune >Scheme: This Scheme is in its fourth Chain, and like ours has three physical, >two astral, and two . . . > >Keith: We haven't discussed the schemes laid out in great detail by HPB in >the SD which were an attempt to "correct" ESOTERIC BUDHISM by Sinnett. > >I think with the current interest of many in astrology, it might be >interesting to deleve into these deep and promising waters. Alice Bailey >developed her own system of Esoteric Astrology which is not directly related >to HPB's schemes of evolution, as far as I can tell. > >The planets exist on an etheric, astral, intellecutal (noospheric), buddhic, >and atmic levels just as we do in our physcial bodies. The solar system and >beyond echo this scheme of interpenentrating bodies, evolving at different >planes and for different purposes. > >Life waves move from planet to planet in our solar system and if we may >speculate like the science fiction writers from galaxy to galaxy. > >Has anyone studied this in detail? Does anyone want to study it on-line? > >Namaste >Keith Price > Keith: Thanks for the post. This is one of the best summary I have seen. While for many all of it at this stage of our individual evolution (except for any real Adepts or initiates on this list), for the time being, they are one of the best hypotheses to work with until a better understanding takes place. Peace MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:07:04 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Late message TU Message-ID: <33F8FFC8.6578@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > First I do agree with Titus Roth in his latest message (1193). Further I > believe establishing the base lines for interaction is also important. > IMO Bart was trying to bully and threaten me into silence. Actually, not. I have no intention of passing your message on. Checking my sent mail...oops. Mea culpa. I implied that I wasn't going to say anything, but I didn't say outright that I wasn't. I apologize. The meaning of my message was that there are certain statements that go beyond expressing opinion, and are actionable if they can't be backed up. Accusing people of illegal activity happens to be one of them. You could have made the same statements as opinion rather than fact by using appropriate qualifiers, such as "questionable" rather than "illegal". If, of course, you can prove the illegality of the actions, then you have nothing to worry about; truth is always an absolute defense. I have recently gotten into (and out of) some trouble for something I have written here (NOT from the TS, and saying any more about will get me even deeper), and I am therefore extra-sensitive about the possibility of others getting into trouble. Once again, no threat was intended on my part, only a warning of what others might do, and I apologize if such a threat was inferred. > Bart, do you think that there is anyone that does not know "BIG BROTHER > IS WATCHING?". I didn't know that you had an older male sibling. Is he a lawyer? If so, then he can advise you far better than I could. I have to make the assumption that you are not resorting to a cheap device like calling the victim an inflammatory name in order to get sympathy. > Then the IRS would stick their nose in, probably find reason to look at > the TS in a manner the management would not desire to have occur, the > 'State of Illinois' would have their look, the statute of limitations > has not run on the by-law changes, of course the US Justice Department > their walk around, all Bart, I'm sure, you are well familiar with. Then why don't you inform the IRS? Isn't there a reward for turning in tax violators? That way, you make money instead of it costing you money. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:22:17 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes Message-ID: <33F90359.2E29@sprynet.com> KEITH PRICE wrote: > (1) The Vulcan Scheme: Presently in its third Chain, it has one physical globe > (the planet Vulcan inside Mercury's orbit), two astral, two lower mental, and > two Causal globes. This is actually one of the major problems I have with Alice Bailey. In the early 20th century, it was discovered that the orbit of Mercury wasn't quite what it should be. It turned out that a planet of a certain size, inside of Mercury's orbit, would fix the problem. So astronomers started searching for the planet, which they called Vulcan. One prominent astronomer claimed to have seen the planet, but, as the astronomical community requires that two mutually independent astronomers sight an object before it can be officially registered. One scientist, however, stated that it was not a planet at all, but that the problem was in the Newtonian laws of physics, which were not generally true, but only true under special circumstances, and that Mercury was not one of those special circumstances. The scientist was Albert Einstein, and his Theory of Relativity was an alternative explanation to the existence of the planet, Vulcan. This can be marked as the point at which science started moving towards Theosophy. To me, the use of the planet Vulcan, physical or ethereal, is anti-Theosophical, or at the very least, against what Blavatsky and the Adepts wrote. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 06:12:57 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Late message TU Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970819111257.00f0718c@mail.eden.com> At 10:08 PM 8/18/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >Ken Malkin wrote: > Then the IRS would stick their nose in, probably find reason to look at >> the TS in a manner the management would not desire to have occur, the >> 'State of Illinois' would have their look, the statute of limitations >> has not run on the by-law changes, of course the US Justice Department >> their walk around, all Bart, I'm sure, you are well familiar with. > > Then why don't you inform the IRS? Isn't there a reward for turning in >tax violators? That way, you make money instead of it costing you money. > > Bart Lidofsky IRS pays a lot of attention to large tax evaders and it is where they give you reward, if they ultimately get to collect the taxes. Even then it is very meager and is based on the taxes they collect and not on fines and penalties. As for violations of tax exempt law by tax exempt entities are concerned, usually they end up with penalties or even loss of tax exempt status. No reward is offered in such cases. However, investigations on tax exempt entities, once IRS gets started, it could mean a lot of trouble and again means a lot of expense to the organization in having to hire (high priced) accountants and tax attorneys to defend themselves. Third point I want reemphasize is that usually *any* litigation is very expensive and can go on for a long time. For example Krishnamurti Trusts litigation went on for 18 (eighteen) years and ended only after Krishnamurti died. No one knows how much money was spent on lawyers over the 18 year period. Must have been quite substantial. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:15:01 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Naming names Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970819121501.00b3c1c0@mail.eden.com> At 11:21 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> In message <335D609C.4A78@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky >> writes >> >> One of the Trustees of K Trusts (who was a party to the litigation) is > > I asked Michael Gomes about it. I will get the actual names when he can >look up the proper spelling, but according to him, the situation was >largely Krishnamurti vs. his business partner. The person who was >involved with both trusts was not a trustee but in fact a lawyer, who >was hired because of his familiarity with Theosophy. Finally, millions >of dollars sounds like a lot of money, but remember that Krishnamurti >was a BILLIONaire. > > Bart Lidofsky Any further progress that Gomes had made? I am very eager to find out if he finds out any new information that I am not already aware of. As far as I am aware, there is only one person (perhaps two) alive today who has some familiarity with what went on inside the Trusts. ......mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:00:21 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Naming names Message-ID: <33F9A6F5.15E0@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > Any further progress that Gomes had made? This is the third time I have written this reply. I had gone into more detail, but the more detail I put in, the more trouble it will cause. The shortest version is: I have been going to various people in the TS whom I respect for information based on issues brought up in this list. Somebody has been distorting what I have written, and spreading it around, attributing things to these people that they have never said. If someone misquotes me directly, I have my originals. If someone misquotes an authority whom I quote, they have to go to me to get my originals. I will no longer put anybody I like and respect in a position of having to defend themselves based on something that I am reported to have said. Period. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:33:40 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Naming names Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970819163340.0074e8bc@mail.eden.com> The inquiry I am making is just to find out if Gomes had found out any new material. Everyone knows that he is a pro in researching historical matters and has published. I have great respect for professionals in any field because they have developed research techniques that rookie amateurs don't know. I am just an amateur and interested in historical matters and as such followed up to see if Gomes has any new information. All I am interested is to find out historical information which can be backedup by documentation. That's is all I am looking forward to. >From what I have seen, none of the members or officers in the TS know much about this matter and even if any of them know, I don't think any of them are going to talk. I hope the above clarifies where I come from and why I followed up. mkr At 10:01 AM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >> Any further progress that Gomes had made? > > This is the third time I have written this reply. I had gone into more >detail, but the more detail I put in, the more trouble it will cause. >The shortest version is: I have been going to various people in the TS >whom I respect for information based on issues brought up in this list. >Somebody has been distorting what I have written, and spreading it >around, attributing things to these people that they have never said. > > If someone misquotes me directly, I have my originals. If someone >misquotes an authority whom I quote, they have to go to me to get my >originals. I will no longer put anybody I like and respect in a position >of having to defend themselves based on something that I am reported to >have said. Period. > > Bart Lidofsky > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:48:07 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Getting into trouble? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970819164807.006e621c@mail.eden.com> This is a second response to your quick reply. I never intended that anyone -- *you* or any body else -- should get into any trouble with anyone. If any one gave you any trouble, I am very sorry to hear about it. But I suggest that you ask them what is their problem. Are they afraid of any true facts? But at the same time, anyone should not be afraid of looking into any facts that can be documented and substantiated. I am just using a very simple common sense approach. If any of my responses (or any body else's) got you into any trouble with anyone -- however high or low -- let us know. Myself and everyone on this list will stand up for you for what you thought was right and acted on that basis and back you up in public here. Those of us who are searching for truth, should not be afraid of truth even if truth sometimes surprises or is unpalatable or even ugly. Truth will stand on its own and does not need any supporters or marketers. MKR ------------------------------------------- At 10:01 AM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >> Any further progress that Gomes had made? > > This is the third time I have written this reply. I had gone into more >detail, but the more detail I put in, the more trouble it will cause. >The shortest version is: I have been going to various people in the TS >whom I respect for information based on issues brought up in this list. >Somebody has been distorting what I have written, and spreading it >around, attributing things to these people that they have never said. > > If someone misquotes me directly, I have my originals. If someone >misquotes an authority whom I quote, they have to go to me to get my >originals. I will no longer put anybody I like and respect in a position >of having to defend themselves based on something that I am reported to >have said. Period. > > Bart Lidofsky > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:02:11 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes Message-ID: <199708191802.MAA06583@mailmx.micron.net> Alan responded to Keith: >>The planets exist on an etheric, astral, intellecutal (noospheric), buddhic, >>and atmic levels just as we do in our physcial bodies. The solar system and >>beyond echo this scheme of interpenentrating bodies, evolving at different >>planes and for different purposes. > >So it is said. How can we verify any of this? Is there an obvious >practical application? The practical application? Indeed, Alan. Much of Theosophy is as Keith wrote - impressive sounding, definitely handy to have at parties or other gatherings to impress friend and foe - but thrifty on the practical side. The message of Theosophy - on the practical side - is very similiar to other philosophies/religions - and it is: to be kind, treat others as you would like to be treated, be compassionate, always recognize the divinity in all of us. >>Life waves move from planet to planet in our solar system and if we may >>speculate like the science fiction writers from galaxy to galaxy. > >This also may well be true, so how does it help us here and now? Maybe it expands/sharpens our mental vision and capability (at least I hope so, or my majoring in philosophy is one big honkin' waste of time) - but people can improve the world and practice compassion without this information. Hmmm. . .then why Theosophy? >>Has anyone studied this in detail? Does anyone want to study it on-line? > >I think someone (like you!) would need to elucidate by starting at the >beginning (or near it) and explaining the ideas in words more familiar >to the ignorant(-ish) student(s). Now that's a challenge! One of the problems with Theosophy and Theosophists is the sqeamishness about putting Theosophy into the "language of the masses." What would happen to "us" if "they" all knew as much as "we" did!? Shudder. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:37:43 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970819183743.00f51118@mail.eden.com> At 02:06 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >Now that's a challenge! One of the problems with Theosophy and Theosophists >is the sqeamishness about putting Theosophy into the "language of the >masses." What would happen to "us" if "they" all knew as much as "we" did!? >Shudder. > >Kym > Theosophy is supposed to be to help the masses which is the Humanity and not for the elite, educated and scholarly alone. Putting theosophy into the language of the masses, I think Annie Besant did a wonderful job even though many may not agree with her. Almost all her writings were verbatim reports of her lectures and she was perhaps the last great orator in the Theosophical Society. Taking Theosophy to the masses is the key to the future success of all Theosophical Organizations, IMHO. ...........mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:51:01 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes Message-ID: <199708191849.OAA23256@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > Subject: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes > Date: Monday, August 18, 1997 5:43 PM > > For your information, I found this on the net under theosophy on the Spirit > Web: > Whew! I love it, but I would kinda like to take it apart piece by piece and discuss it from the top down. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:43:56 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <3405f6ff.6331094@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> I read the following article comparing men's and women's tennis in a tennis newsgroup today, and I was shocked. This male chauvinist obviously needs some lessons about female equality. He wrote: "I think the serve has never been given the focus in women's tennis. Partly this is because the women are shorter and not as strong." I bet he even believes that women are slower and less durable, also. The sexist bastard! I can guarantee him that the fastest, strongest, tallest women is far faster, stronger, and taller than the slowest, weakest, and shortest man. Therefore, his statement has no validity whatsoever. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:36:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970819203639.007413b0@mail.eden.com> Don't you worry. In due course someone will teach him a lesson, which will last him a couple of life times!!!! mkr =============================== At 03:55 PM 8/19/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >I read the following article comparing men's and women's tennis in a >tennis newsgroup today, and I was shocked. This male chauvinist >obviously needs some lessons about female equality. He wrote: > >"I think the serve has never been given the focus in women's tennis. >Partly this is because the women are shorter and not as strong." > >I bet he even believes that women are slower and less durable, also. >The sexist bastard! I can guarantee him that the fastest, strongest, >tallest women is far faster, stronger, and taller than the slowest, >weakest, and shortest man. Therefore, his statement has no validity >whatsoever. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:50:32 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970819165032.007e8140@imagiware.com> Tom: You have to be careful when you're being funny on this list. I can tell from reading this that you're writing in jest, but without an explicit "" at the end there's a change that some readers will misinterpret your posting, start seeing red, and blast you with their righteous wrath. You are daring to make light of sacred political dogma and as a sacrilegious heretic exposing yourself to punishment by the defenders of the faith. To question holy writ is to face damnation, and to subject yourself to being shunned by the faithful. Some beliefs are so true that you cannot ask what they mean or dare question them, but must profess your unwavering support. Those that dare question the Faith are subject to being condemned as evil, shouted down at lectures, to lose their jobs, and denied future employment in the name of equal employment and fairness to all. obligatory -- Eldon At 03:55 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >I read the following article comparing men's and women's tennis in a >tennis newsgroup today, and I was shocked. This male chauvinist >obviously needs some lessons about female equality. He wrote: > >"I think the serve has never been given the focus in women's tennis. >Partly this is because the women are shorter and not as strong." > >I bet he even believes that women are slower and less durable, also. >The sexist bastard! I can guarantee him that the fastest, strongest, >tallest women is far faster, stronger, and taller than the slowest, >weakest, and shortest man. Therefore, his statement has no validity >whatsoever. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:51:18 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970819205118.006f5900@mail.eden.com> Wise words, Eldon. ..........mkr At 04:50 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >Tom: > >You have to be careful when you're being funny on this list. >I can tell from reading this that you're writing in jest, but >without an explicit "" at the end there's a change that >some readers will misinterpret your posting, start seeing red, >and blast you with their righteous wrath. > >You are daring to make light of sacred political dogma and as a >sacrilegious heretic exposing yourself to punishment by the >defenders of the faith. > >To question holy writ is to face damnation, and >to subject yourself to being shunned by the faithful. Some >beliefs are so true that you cannot ask what they mean or >dare question them, but must profess your unwavering support. > >Those that dare question the Faith are subject to being >condemned as evil, shouted down at lectures, to lose their >jobs, and denied future employment in the name of equal >employment and fairness to all. > >obligatory > >-- Eldon > >At 03:55 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >>I read the following article comparing men's and women's tennis in a >>tennis newsgroup today, and I was shocked. This male chauvinist >>obviously needs some lessons about female equality. He wrote: >> >>"I think the serve has never been given the focus in women's tennis. >>Partly this is because the women are shorter and not as strong." >> >>I bet he even believes that women are slower and less durable, also. >>The sexist bastard! I can guarantee him that the fastest, strongest, >>tallest women is far faster, stronger, and taller than the slowest, >>weakest, and shortest man. Therefore, his statement has no validity >>whatsoever. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:44:28 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! - Eldon Message-ID: <199708192144.PAA19234@mailmx.micron.net> Eldon wrote: >You have to be careful when you're being funny on this list. >I can tell from reading this that you're writing in jest, but >without an explicit "" at the end there's a change that >some readers will misinterpret your posting, start seeing red, >and blast you with their righteous wrath. Since you're addressing a post on sexism, are you saying those who fight against sexism are the ones who will "blast you with their righteous wrath?" >You are daring to make light of sacred political dogma and as a >sacrilegious heretic exposing yourself to punishment by the >defenders of the faith. Sacred political dogma - what is - the fight against sexism? Sacrilegious heretic - who? - Tom? - Tom is being a "sacrilegious heretic? In what way? Defenders of the faith - again, are you talking about those who are fighting against sexism? >To question holy writ is to face damnation, and >to subject yourself to being shunned by the faithful. Some >beliefs are so true that you cannot ask what they mean or >dare question them, but must profess your unwavering support. Holy writ? - again, are you talking about the fight against sexism? Damnation? - in what way will one face "damnation?" Shunned by the faithful? - sexists will be shunned by those who fight against it? >Those that dare question the Faith are subject to being >condemned as evil, shouted down at lectures, to lose their >jobs, and denied future employment in the name of equal >employment and fairness to all. This last paragraph is the most interesting of all - you sound as if you may resent those who are trying to change things, trying to equal the playing field. I will grant you that some have suffered tragically and needlessly in the fight against sexism, but that doesn't mean the goal is not worthy. There are ways to do it better - we just have to learn, and we learn by doing. And, contrary to the implication in your post, not all of us who are politically active in such things as sexism march in lock-step. Some of us question our motives, means, and goals often - and some do care deeply that both men and women find the defeat of sexism advantageous. Eldon, Tom is not some hero bucking the system here. He's mocking the pain many women have endured because of sexism. If Tom was making light of your wife or some other female you loved because she was devastated over the loss of a much-needed job or other opportunity due to someone thinking women don't measure up simply because they are women, I doubt you would continue to think of Tom as being so witty. >obligatory No grin here. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:44:32 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! - Doss Message-ID: <199708192144.PAA19237@mailmx.micron.net> Doss wrote: >Wise words, Eldon. Your idea of wisdom and my idea of wisdom clearly differ. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:19:24 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <199708192319.QAA08884@palrel3.hp.com> On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:47:25 -0400 Bart Lidofsky wrote: > After all, I think it was wrong for Alice Bailey to have been tossed, > and I dislike her intensely). I don't know much of the history of AAB and the TS. Was she kicked out? What happened? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:20:41 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! - Doss Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970819232041.00daa128@mail.eden.com> At 05:48 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>Wise words, Eldon. > >Your idea of wisdom and my idea of wisdom clearly differ. . . > >Kym > I agree. .........mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 20:20:40 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Chains and Rounds Message-ID: <33FA3858.5EAA@gil.net> Howdy, The best (and easiest) book on C&R I've run across is a small volume (15 pages) called "Chains & Rounds" by E.L. Gardner Perhaps, still available from the publishers: The Theosophical Society in England 50 Glouscester Place London, W1H 3HJ Peace Profound Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:05:32 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <33FA42DC.2166@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > "I think the serve has never been given the focus in women's tennis. > Partly this is because the women are shorter and not as strong." > > I bet he even believes that women are slower and less durable, also. > The sexist bastard! I can guarantee him that the fastest, strongest, > tallest women is far faster, stronger, and taller than the slowest, > weakest, and shortest man. Therefore, his statement has no validity > whatsoever. There is a difference between readily measured differences that are clearly biological, and difficult to measure differences which we have no way currently of telling are biological or cultural. Also, note that it is not always those most qualified to govern who become politicians, but it is usually those most qualified to play tennis who become professional tennis players. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:11:08 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <33FA442C.6759@sprynet.com> Titus Roth wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:47:25 -0400 Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > After all, I think it was wrong for Alice Bailey to have been tossed, > > and I dislike her intensely). > > I don't know much of the history of AAB and the TS. Was she kicked out? > What happened? Short version: She believed that she was being personally instructed by one of the Adepts. Annie Besant did not. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:18:46 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! - Eldon (reply to Kym) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970819211846.007b88f0@imagiware.com> Kym: >>You have to be careful when you're being funny on this list. >>I can tell from reading this that you're writing in jest, but >>without an explicit "" at the end there's a change that >>some readers will misinterpret your posting, start seeing red, >>and blast you with their righteous wrath. >Since you're addressing a post on sexism, are you saying those who >fight against sexism are the ones who will "blast you with their >righteous wrath?" Tom is, I think, making fun of a particular approach to talking about and understanding the differences between men and women. I was picking up on it without getting into the politics and the pro's and con's of how men and women treat each other. My point was with regard to how someone can take their political beliefs to be Absolute Truth quite as dogmatically and fanatically as any extreme religious Fundamentalist. >>You are daring to make light of sacred political dogma and as a >>sacrilegious heretic exposing yourself to punishment by the >>defenders of the faith. >Sacred political dogma - what is - the fight against sexism? No, but the belief in the "dogma of sexism" (with dogma used as a mandatory, required-of-everyone belief), can be talked about. My interest was to point out the potential of religious-style dogmatism in any field, including the political. I'm not stating that you or anyone particularly is dogmatic about their personal politics. The problem that I'm concerned with, and thought would make a light piece, it *how* the beliefs are held, how rigid they are, how totalitarian (wishing to impose themselves on others whether they're persuaded or not). If the ideas are inflexible, impossible to change, tightly packaged with value judgements -- saying for instance that those not professing belief in the completely-packaged thought are evil, XYZ-ist, etc. -- then there's a definite barrier to progress in metaphysics, which requires of us the ability to break free of all habits of thought and preconceptions. Notice that I'm not saying anything negative about women nor taking a position either side of the men/woman issue, pro or con what you've espoused. >Sacrilegious heretic - who? - Tom? - Tom is being a >"sacrilegious heretic? In what way? He is to anyone that considers him a "non-believer" and someone refusing to join the one and only-true political belief of the chosen ones. That is to say, he *would seem that way* to some. I'm not saying that you see him that way. I won't speak for him nor what he thinks, nor will speak for you or what you think. >Defenders of the faith - again, are you talking about those >who are fighting against sexism? Not exactly. I'm not writing about those who are working to better the world, including ridding the world of various caste-type systems, including inequalities based upon gender. I'm all for that. But if someone takes the *concept* of sexism and makes it into a platonic ideal, something true and beyond question, a dogma describing the way that life works and with associated commandments of what to do or not do -- then I see a problem that eventually needs fixing. The problem is in the rigid idea and not in the rest of the world. >>To question holy writ is to face damnation, and >>to subject yourself to being shunned by the faithful. Some >>beliefs are so true that you cannot ask what they mean or >>dare question them, but must profess your unwavering support. >Holy writ? - again, are you talking about the fight against sexism? >Damnation? - in what way will one face "damnation?" Shunned by the >faithful? - sexists will be shunned by those who fight against it? I have no problem with working to better the world. Just with the way that people treat others that don't agree with them, especially if their targets of anyone's righteous anger. Helping rid the world of rigid, inflexible political politics is as important as ridding it of equally rigid religious groups. >>Those that dare question the Faith are subject to being >>condemned as evil, shouted down at lectures, to lose their >>jobs, and denied future employment in the name of equal >>employment and fairness to all. >This last paragraph is the most interesting of all - you sound >as if you may resent those who are trying to change things, >trying to equal the playing field. I'm not against change. But I won't limit that change to someone else's agenda, be it a political or religious group. My interest is in improving things by getting people to think for themselves. Perhaps your approach to improve the world is more focused on social concerns. We each need to discover what we can best offer the world and just do it. >I will grant you that some have suffered tragically and >needlessly in the fight against sexism, but that doesn't >mean the goal is not worthy. I agree that all caste-based systems need to end, including unfair disadvantage based upon gender, age, race, religious preference, etc. I'm not sure I accept the doctrine of sexism, thoungh, or the way that various political approaches choose to explain things and tell us how to fix them. >There are ways to do it better - we just have to learn, and >we learn by doing. Agreed. >And, contrary to the implication in your post, not all of us who >are politically active in such things as sexism march in >lock-step. Some of us question our motives, means, and goals >often - and some do care deeply that both men and women find >the defeat of sexism advantageous. Again, I agree that gender-based prejudice and unfair treatment of people based upon their sex should be left behind as humanity evolves, moving forward to better things. I just wouldn't objectify the term "sexism" and make of it any more that what it is: a mental construct. The Christians do the same thing with their idea of "God", and won't even consider something as a religion unless it has people "believe in God". >Eldon, Tom is not some hero bucking the system here. He's mocking >the pain many women have endured because of sexism. If Tom was >making light of your wife or some other female you loved because >she was devastated over the loss of a much-needed job or other >opportunity due to someone thinking women don't measure up simply >because they are women, I doubt you would continue to think of >Tom as being so witty. It's possible to attribute different motives to Tom. The simplest thing to do would be to ask him, "what do you mean by this?" and give him a change to explain if he intended something brutal and cruel or was just being humorous. We certainly need more attempts at humorous writing -- there's far too much anger going around. >>obligatory >No grin here. Kym, I'm not attacking you nor any work to better people. I *am*, in my previous post, trying to be funny. But the issue that I have about how belief systems, no matter how well intentioned, becoming rigid and dogmatic and stopping people from thinking -- that issue, I think, is important and needs to be revisited from time to time. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:14:33 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <199708200014.RAA13913@palrel3.hp.com> I don't remember who posted what, since I deleted my backlog of messages. But I thought I'd throw in my $0.02 on organizational dynamics, spiritual groups and the internet. The Internet is no great saviour from organizational politics. Until mankind itself changes, it will just be used and misused as organizations are used and misused. While we may gain some minor benefit from the internet, don't look to it to save us from the same schisms, cliques, or group-thinks present in other groups. Look at other supposed technological saviours. Have we made much spiritual progress because of them? Maybe, but it's debatable. With time saving inventions like telephones and automobiles we have crowded so much more non-essential activity into our lives and have even less time than before. Is our civilization more stable and safer from the barbarians for having more modern weapons? Instead of kids just hitting each other with fists and stones, we have them dying from gunshot wounds. I wouldn't give up my car or telephone, nor would I give up internet access, but like many short cuts they have to be used not as distractions and not at the expense of self-development. The intricate schemes of matter and materiality! What looks so limitless and free can easily enslave us without our even realizing it. "He who taketh a shortcut findeth himself at the end of no journey, hands empty, having no gift for the Master." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:56:09 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Chains and Rounds Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970819215609.007c7410@imagiware.com> Another good book is CYCLIC EVOLUTION, by Adam Warcup, also published by TPH London. -- Eldon ---- At 08:46 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >Howdy, > >The best (and easiest) book on C&R I've run across is a small volume >(15 pages) called "Chains & Rounds" by E.L. Gardner >Perhaps, still available from the publishers: >The Theosophical Society in England >50 Glouscester Place >London, W1H 3HJ > >Peace Profound >Ken Malkin > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 03:14:59 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! - Eldon Message-ID: <34145df9.32692238@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >If Tom was making light of your wife or some other female you loved >because she was devastated over the loss of a much-needed job or other >opportunity due to someone thinking women don't measure up simply >because they are women, I doubt you would continue to think of Tom as >being so witty. Is it possible that some feminists "make light" of men who didn't get jobs, even though they were the most qualified for them, because the employer was so afraid of the charges of sexism that feminists so recklessly throw around? Feminists should be glad that non-feminists point out when they have gone too far, since it serves to make what is good about feminism more credible and effective, by being more balanced. Feminism needs heroes like me. Right? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 03:15:10 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <34155e13.32718657@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Eldon wrote: >Tom: > >You have to be careful when you're being funny on this list. >I can tell from reading this that you're writing in jest, but >without an explicit "" at the end there's a change that >some readers will misinterpret your posting, start seeing red, >and blast you with their righteous wrath. A) Making humor too explicit destroys too much of my enjoyment of it, and B) for the sake of giving the fight against sexism more credibility, I am heroically willing to have righteous wrath directed at me, sacrificing myself for the good of humanity. >Those that dare question the Faith are subject to being >condemned as evil, shouted down at lectures, to lose their >jobs, and denied future employment in the name of equal >employment and fairness to all. > >obligatory Amen! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:03:38 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Eldon (reply to Kym) Message-ID: <199708200503.XAA14103@mailmx.micron.net> Eldon: >Again, I agree that gender-based prejudice and unfair treatment >of people based upon their sex should be left behind as >humanity evolves, moving forward to better things. I just >wouldn't objectify the term "sexism" and make of it any more >that what it is: a mental construct. The Christians do the >same thing with their idea of "God", and won't even consider >something as a religion unless it has people "believe in God". This is, to me, a confusing paragraph. It seems that you first admit that unfair treatment and gender-based prejudice - aka sexism - does exist and should be "left behind" as humanity evolves; however, you then go on to say you wouldn't "objectify" it. To say something exists OUTSIDE the mind of someone is objectifying it - so if someone ACTS out their prejudice, wouldn't prejudice then be objective - it would no longer just be a "mental construct?" Kind of the "thought form" theory - yet, one not even need act on a thought to create a thought form. More empirically, your comparison between "God" and sexism seems also a bit confusing. One can prove that sexism exists, but one cannot prove God exists. >It's possible to attribute different motives to Tom. The >simplest thing to do would be to ask him, "what do you mean >by this?" and give him a change to explain if he intended >something brutal and cruel or was just being humorous. Tom has explained in abundance how he thinks - one need rarely guess what little creatures are running around in his brain. To ask him to further explain what he means is simply to bring upon oneself a night of howling at the moon. >Kym, I'm not attacking you nor any work to better people. I never thought you were attacking me. And I do agree with your valuable assertion that rigid dogmas cause great harm. But you chose a topic which, to me, doesn't seem to quite fit with what you are saying here. . .different dendrite connections, I presume. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:06:40 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Blatant Sexism Message-ID: <33FA7B60.7951@gil.net> Greetings and good day ! I'm late to the table with this talk of blatant sexism and gender bias. I do feel we spend lifetimes understanding the potency of each possibility within the total human range of potential. We exclude nothing from our experience. Gender, relationships, thinking, sexual preference, ad nauseum. Once we see through to the pain of an issue, it no longer interests the person, thus awakened, to perpetuate that pain inducing action. In the scheme of mother brother, father etc. we all are pack animals. The law of Karma sees to it that we balance what we have produced. Think a thing, create a thing. Changing the world may be more simple than one believes. It starts with the individual. You know, that atom within the greater being who thus is but the slightly larger atom in the cosmic scheme. As you wish to live, thus do you manifest. Perhaps for some meditate, for others, good works, for another group religious ceremony. It truly does not matter the path. The profundity of words in all of our discussions overwhelm my small mind. What I have tried, tested and proven to myself is simply this; we have the ability thus the responsibility to evolve past form. That mandate is lawful and universal. That which prevents our schucking off the "Ties that bind" should be instantly seen as retardation's of the "Prime directive" and MUST be avoided. The " Prime Directive" of course is the return whence we came. Refined by our human journey. We are perhaps, akin to the creation of a multi-faceted perfect brilliant diamond. It has been cut and nicely polished by each life times effort. Soon on, eons of labor affords us an endowment in which we reflect the light of radiant being-ness that we have chosen to experience. Then the real work commences. Peace profound Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:28:42 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <199708200628.XAA09325@palrel3.hp.com> Tom, I can see your ostensible point, but I'm not sure what your objective is. I'm only guessing that being in a minority position on the list makes you want to shout a little bit and purposely be the devil's advocate. (If it's any comfort, I rather liked your statement that freedom needs some restrictions to remain freedom. Too bad some of your good points are unacknowledged.) However ... If your attitude on sexism is "I'm standing for my little corner of truth and digging in my heels until people see it," I think you're asking us to follow a red herring because you focus on such a small part of the picture; straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Healing first takes place by listening without being quick to retort with charges of male bashing. I agree there is some of that, but it is much less a problem than what women have had to endure from men for millenia. Picture forced clitorectomies, brutal abuse, denial of basic rights ... etc. If you first demonstrate that you understand the legitimate angers of women, I think you'll stand a much better chance of your point being taken. My spiritual teacher was a woman and occasionally made some unflattering remarks about male attitudes (and women's too). Both male and female disciples could take what she had to say because her attitude was not to divide, but to heal. Some of us called her the most loving person we ever met. I guess we also probably did a little of, "Yeah, that's terrible what all those other people out there do. Glad I don't." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:31:48 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <199708200631.XAA09555@palrel3.hp.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Short version: She believed that she was being personally instructed by > one of the Adepts. Annie Besant did not. Is there anything interesting in the longer version? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:44:05 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Virus Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970820104405.00f68818@mail.eden.com> Here is some useful info. -------------------------------- ---------------------------- Warning For AOL Beta Testers ---------------------------- The crew at America Online issued a warning recently, targeted at any AOL users working on software beta programs. Apparently, there is a chance that AOL beta testers could be the target of a few undesirables out there attempting to spread viruses through file attachments. If you are an AOL user working on one of their beta projects, please note that AOL does not email beta software or updates to members. Should you receive a suspicious email with file attachments, forward them to screen name TOSFiles. Anyone out there, AOL user or not, should be wary of executable file attachments to incoming email from an unconfirmed source. And, as always, remember ... do NOT give out your password to ANYONE via email. AOL, CompuServe, MSN or virtually any service provider out there for that matter, will NOT send an email message to a member asking for passwords or credit card numbers. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:27:43 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <33FAE2BF.724B@sprynet.com> Titus Roth wrote: > > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > Short version: She believed that she was being personally instructed by > > one of the Adepts. Annie Besant did not. > > Is there anything interesting in the longer version? Truthfully? Not really. Also, I have heard several versions of what happened, at least two by people who were there. There is general agreement on the short version, however. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:40:19 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <199708201358.JAA07310@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! > Date: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 10:19 PM > > >Tom: > > A) Making humor too explicit destroys too much of my enjoyment of it, > and B) for the sake of giving the fight against sexism more > credibility, I am heroically willing to have righteous wrath directed > at me, sacrificing myself for the good of humanity. > Somebody get the nails and cross out! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:59:23 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <199708201358.JAA07317@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Internet and TS > Date: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 8:13 PM > > Titus Roth wrote: > > > > On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:47:25 -0400 Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > > > After all, I think it was wrong for Alice Bailey to have been tossed, > > > and I dislike her intensely). > > > > I don't know much of the history of AAB and the TS. Was she kicked out? > > What happened? > > Short version: She believed that she was being personally instructed by > one of the Adepts. Annie Besant did not. In her autobiography, "The Unfinished Autobiography", it states on pages 173-174 that she was booted out because of TS political reasons. This is also a book that could be read as an interesting historical view of TS during the days of the 1920-30's. Personally instructed by the Adepts? She made no bones about it and she was always forthwright in her speech. To whet your appetitie for her autobiography (all of theos-l, that is): she married a clergy man who she had four children by. He regularly beat her and threw her down the stairs when she was pregnant. Often, he spent all their money, so there was nothing for the household bills. When he thankfully left her, she became involved with TS. Later, she met and married Foster Bailey. When one of the Masters asked her to write a book, she had a fit. She called it psychism and would have nothing to do with it. It took quite a bit of coaxing for the Masters to get her to do it. Alice was no saint, but a prim and proper English lady who always spoke her mind. She believed in a democratic Theosophical Society, as opposed to one that was run by an elite. A. Safron BTW, I will respond to any poster on this except Bart. > > Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 97 10:02:01 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <199708201402.KAA20738@leo.vsla.edu> Thanks, Bart, for the vote of confidence in my ability to discern relatively unbiased authors. Of recent (1980-present) writers of Theosophical history, Campbell seems the least non-partisan. I have been amused by hearing a NYTS staff member say the bookstore wouldn't carry Tillett because he was biased, as if all the pro-TS stuff was not. Another NYTS guy horrified some of my friends in the Maryland lodge by saying of Madame Blavatsky's Baboon, "No, I haven't read it, and I have no intention of doing so. I've heard of the negative attitude of the author." No doubt Peter Washington has his own biases and is not particularly admiring of HPB. But like it or not (and I have far more reason than most *not* to like it) his book had a wider impact on the public than any other theosophical book (meaning on theosophical subjects) of the decade. It's disappointing that a national TS leader would boycott it because he thought it anti-HPB. Books with definite biases opposed to our own can be extremely worthwhile reading. I made a point of getting the anti-Cayce perspective in my own work, even though the biases of their authors are at times obnoxious to me. Anyhow, a scale of recent works on HPB and theosophical history from most favorable/uncritical to most unfavorable. 1 is a complete hagiography with nary a critical word about the subject; 10 is a complete hatchet job with no praise. 1. HPB by Cranston. 2. Blavatsky and her Teachers by Fuller. 3. Mme. Blavatsky ou la reponse du sphinx by Richard-Nafarre. 5. The Masters Revealed by Johnson. 5. The Theosophical Enlightenment by Godwin. 5. Ancient Wisdom Revived by Campbell. 6. Annie Besant by Anne Taylor. 7. The Elder Brother by Tillett. 8. Madame Blavatsky by Meade. 8. Madame Blavatsky's Baboon by Washington. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:53:49 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <33FB04FD.C44@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > Thanks, Bart, for the vote of confidence in my ability to > discern relatively unbiased authors. Of recent (1980-present) > writers of Theosophical history, Campbell seems the least > non-partisan. I have been amused by hearing a NYTS staff > member say the bookstore wouldn't carry Tillett because he was > biased, as if all the pro-TS stuff was not. Carrying Tillett is a bit problematic. On the one hand, he does not tell out and out lies; he is, however, somewhat selective in the facts he reveals, and is somewhat unbalanced. > Another NYTS guy horrified some of my friends in the Maryland > lodge by saying of Madame Blavatsky's Baboon, "No, I haven't > read it, and I have no intention of doing so. I've heard of > the negative attitude of the author." There is no obligation that all TS members read every book about the TS. My wife have both read MBB, but we wanted to be able to answer questions about it. > No doubt Peter > Washington has his own biases and is not particularly admiring > of HPB. Not to mention not letting facts get in the way of a sardonic barb... > theosophical subjects) of the decade. It's disappointing that > a national TS leader would boycott it because he thought it > anti-HPB. Not all the members of the NYTS are national TS leaders. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:56:18 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <33FB0592.3C50@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > In her autobiography, "The Unfinished Autobiography", it states on pages 173-174 that she was > booted out because of TS political reasons. This is also a book that could be read as an > interesting historical view of TS during the days of the 1920-30's. I have and it is. >BTW, I will respond to any poster on this except Bart. That's your privilege. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:32:27 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: K Trust Litigation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970820153227.006a6288@mail.eden.com> At 12:40 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >The inquiry I am making is just to find out if Gomes had found out any new >material. Everyone knows that he is a pro in researching historical matters >and has published. I have great respect for professionals in any field >because they have developed research techniques that rookie amateurs don't know. > >I am just an amateur and interested in historical matters and as such >followed up to see if Gomes has any new information. All I am interested is >to find out historical information which can be backedup by documentation. >That's is all I am looking forward to. > >>From what I have seen, none of the members or officers in the TS know much >about this matter and even if any of them know, I don't think any of them >are going to talk. > >I hope the above clarifies where I come from and why I followed up. > >mkr > >At 10:01 AM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >>ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >>> Any further progress that Gomes had made? >> >> This is the third time I have written this reply. I had gone into more >>detail, but the more detail I put in, the more trouble it will cause. >>The shortest version is: I have been going to various people in the TS >>whom I respect for information based on issues brought up in this list. >>Somebody has been distorting what I have written, and spreading it >>around, attributing things to these people that they have never said. >> >> If someone misquotes me directly, I have my originals. If someone >>misquotes an authority whom I quote, they have to go to me to get my >>originals. I will no longer put anybody I like and respect in a position >>of having to defend themselves based on something that I am reported to >>have said. Period. >> >> Bart Lidofsky >> > I am just speculating. As far as Gomes researching the issue it quite possible that: (1) Gomes did not find time to research, or (2) he found out it is a very touchy subject for TSA hierarchy and did not want to get involved or (3) Could not locate any information on it. Just my 2 cents. ...............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:32:26 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970820153226.006af3ac@mail.eden.com> At 10:55 AM 8/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >K. Paul Johnson wrote: >> >> Thanks, Bart, for the vote of confidence in my ability to >> discern relatively unbiased authors. Of recent (1980-present) >> writers of Theosophical history, Campbell seems the least >> non-partisan. I have been amused by hearing a NYTS staff >> member say the bookstore wouldn't carry Tillett because he was >> biased, as if all the pro-TS stuff was not. > > Carrying Tillett is a bit problematic. On the one hand, he does not >tell out and out lies; he is, however, somewhat selective in the facts >he reveals, and is somewhat unbalanced. > >> Another NYTS guy horrified some of my friends in the Maryland >> lodge by saying of Madame Blavatsky's Baboon, "No, I haven't >> read it, and I have no intention of doing so. I've heard of >> the negative attitude of the author." > > There is no obligation that all TS members read every book about the >TS. My wife have both read MBB, but we wanted to be able to answer >questions about it. > >> No doubt Peter >> Washington has his own biases and is not particularly admiring >> of HPB. > > Not to mention not letting facts get in the way of a sardonic barb... > >> theosophical subjects) of the decade. It's disappointing that >> a national TS leader would boycott it because he thought it >> anti-HPB. > > Not all the members of the NYTS are national TS leaders. > > Bart Lidofsky Several months ago, I posted a msg inquiring if any one has seen any critque of Tillett wherein any factual errors in his books were identified. I did not get any response. Again I think if factual errors are there, then all of us should know so that they can be taken into consideration when evaluating or forming our own opinion about the book. ...........mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:29:50 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Eldon (reply to Kym) Message-ID: <33faa003.49327098@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >One can prove that sexism exists, but one cannot prove God exists. Since they, as all perceptions do, both have objective and subjective aspects, they are both on the same continuum, and differ only in degree of probability of existing, rather than one being absolutely provable and the other not. Or, perhaps, by provable, you mean only to a certain high degree of probability, rather than beyond any doubt, as I would understand it to mean. A certain number of people believe that sexism exists, and a certain number of people believe that God exists. Or, more accurately, everyone believes in the existence of both to unique degrees of probability. >Tom has explained in abundance how he thinks - one need rarely guess >what little creatures are running around in his brain. To ask him to further >explain what he means is simply to bring upon oneself a night of howling at >the moon. Because you're only a girl, I'm going to let that comment pass by. >. . .different dendrite connections, I presume. Dendrite? Is that a brand of toothpaste? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:51:28 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <199708201751.KAA05079@palrel3.hp.com> "A. Safron" wrote: > In her autobiography, "The Unfinished Autobiography", it states on > pages 173-174 that she was booted out because of TS political reasons. > This is also a book that could be read as an interesting historical > view of TS during the days of the 1920-30's. [snip of long but interesting stuff] Thanks. Since finishing my coursework I'm still rather burnt out on books, but that's one I think I'll get. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:55:20 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <34053e98.5384572@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Titus wrote: >If your attitude on sexism is "I'm standing for my little corner of truth and >digging in my heels until people see it," I think you're asking us to follow a >red herring because you focus on such a small part of the picture; straining >at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Healing first takes place by listening >without being quick to retort with charges of male bashing. I agree there is >some of that, but it is much less a problem than what women have had to >endure from men for millenia. Picture forced clitorectomies, brutal abuse, >denial of basic rights ... etc. As far as I know, women have always generally outlived men. If women have had it so much rougher, I wonder why this has been the case. But, regardless, I don't particularly care what happened in the past. Correcting present imbalances is my primary interest. Also, abuse and sexism are two different subjects, and in the place and time for which I am primarily responsible, I have no idea what I could do about abuse, anyway. Would anything I could have written on this list have increased the probability of stopping O. J. by enough to make it worth writing? But when social pressures sanction such ridiculous outcomes as women tennis players successfully demanding to be paid as much as men tennis players, there is imbalance, and when I am directly confronted by the attitudes which created that imbalance, I am prone to believe there is sufficient probability that I can do something significant enough about it to make it worth trying. To bring up a similar issue and compare it to sexism, I wonder, considering United States prison statistics which suggest that men commit, proportionally, far more crimes than women do and that blacks commit, proportionally, far more crimes than whites do, how many people would say that it was racist to even say the latter but not sexist to say the former. >If you first demonstrate that you understand the legitimate angers of >women, I think you'll stand a much better chance of your point being taken. I agree, which relates to one of my points. Women's legitimate angers would be far more credible and be taken far more seriously if their illegitimate ones were eliminated. That isn't my primary motive, but truth and balance, the increase of which is my primary motive, and is what I believe Jesus meant when he said to, first and foremost, love God, are win-win, and should always come before anyone's agenda, no matter how poorly he or she has been treated. The same principle applies to environmentalism. No one denies that a clean environment is better than a dirty one, but when "environmental-nazis" take people's property away from them for killing snails on it, combatting that imbalance takes the focus away from maintaining a clean environment. Feminists are capable of being their own worst enemies by going too far. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:03:39 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <33FB5BAA.391B@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > Again I think if factual errors are there, then all of us should know so > that they can be taken into consideration when evaluating or forming our own > opinion about the book. The problem is that most of the information in Tillet's book with which I do not disagree comes from people Tillet quotes, rather than Tillet himself. He then draws conclusions from what the other people said, and I do not think he critically examines those people sufficiently. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:05:34 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: K Trust Litigation Message-ID: <33FB5C1E.3141@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > I am just speculating. > > As far as Gomes researching the issue it quite possible that: > > (1) Gomes did not find time to research, or > > (2) he found out it is a very touchy subject for TSA hierarchy and did not > want to get involved or > > (3) Could not locate any information on it. 4) I am no longer placing any personal communications to me on a mailing list or newsgroup on the Internet, even if the person says it's OK to do so. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:13:33 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: K Trust Litigation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970820221333.006e6894@mail.eden.com> At 05:08 PM 8/20/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> I am just speculating. >> >> As far as Gomes researching the issue it quite possible that: >> >> (1) Gomes did not find time to research, or >> >> (2) he found out it is a very touchy subject for TSA hierarchy and did not >> want to get involved or >> >> (3) Could not locate any information on it. > > 4) I am no longer placing any personal communications to me on a >mailing list or newsgroup on the Internet, even if the person says it's >OK to do so. > > Bart Lidofsky > What happened? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:13:34 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970820221334.006e8244@mail.eden.com> At 05:06 PM 8/20/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> Again I think if factual errors are there, then all of us should know so >> that they can be taken into consideration when evaluating or forming our own >> opinion about the book. > > The problem is that most of the information in Tillet's book with which >I do not disagree comes from people Tillet quotes, rather than Tillet >himself. He then draws conclusions from what the other people said, and >I do not think he critically examines those people sufficiently. > > Bart Lidofsky I recall that everything he quotes, he has cited the source and I believe the sources can be confirmed. Also I think Tillett wrote the book which was a thesis he submitted and if this be so, unless the sources are credible and verifiable, the thesis would not have been approved. I would still be looking forward to any documented errors in his book. Also there is book on CWL under preparation by Peter Michel and would very much like to see what he has in it when it is published. I would like to make it very very clear that I am not against *anyone* *personally* -- be it CWL or anyone else. But at the same time, I have no problem in facing any facts about any individual, whether the facts are good, bad, indifferent, beautiful or ugly. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:21:12 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <199708210021.SAA00273@mailmx.micron.net> A. Safron wrote: >BTW, I will respond to any poster on this except Bart. Although I can understand completely why you choose not to exchange with Bart, I must say that publically excommunicating someone on theos-l makes me jumpy. It seems the complete opposite of what this avenue (theos-l) is here for. It also raises the question whether this type of event qualifies as "group" business, or is something between individuals which should be left alone. Got me. And, oddly, the more Bart is "punished" the more I feel for him - he's becoming the one who is persecuted and with that impression comes sympathy, even though I know Bart dug his own hole - but don't we all? To be ignored hurts, and it hurts alot - which is why the silent treatment can be so powerful. One more observation: We can't argue for Wheaton to listen to us if we won't listen to each other. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:37:20 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism Message-ID: <199708210043.UAA28586@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Ken Malkin > Subject: Blatant Sexism > Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 12:12 AM > > Greetings and good day ! > > I'm late to the table with this talk of blatant sexism and gender bias. I have been early to the table and have filled my plate to the point that food was falling off of it, I have decided that I had better hold back or put on a few pounds and perhaps use it to pound another. . > I do feel we spend lifetimes understanding the potency of each > possibility within the total human range of potential. The spark of the human Soul exists in each gender. We are just wearing masks of duality to better understand each other. The concave and convex are naturally attracted, therefore forming the whole and the whole understanding. >We exclude > nothing from our experience. Gender, relationships, thinking, sexual > preference, ad nauseum. Once we see through to the pain of an issue, it > no longer interests the person, thus awakened, to perpetuate that pain > inducing action. You got it, honey. > > In the scheme of mother brother, father etc. we all are pack animals. Each supporting the other, in different times and places. Bless you, A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:45:00 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Beyond a reasonable doubt Message-ID: <199708210045.SAA01370@mailmx.micron.net> Tom wrote: >Or, perhaps, by provable, you mean only >to a certain high degree of probability, rather than beyond any doubt, >as I would understand it to mean. Ok, here we go. That sexism exists is as provable as the claim that humans are capable of loving one another. We see the results of these two ideas - sexism and love - made manifest every day. People will say women are inferior to men simply because they are women, and people will declare they love their children - and act accordingly. Few doubt that most people love their children - it shows in their actions and words. The same with sexism. >Because you're only a girl Jealous? >Dendrite? Is that a brand of toothpaste? Yes, it is! They keep it behind the pharmacy counter because it's so new - you need to ask the pharmacist for it - and if the pharmacist seems to balk or feign ignorance, don't fall for it - he/she is probably trying to hog it all for themselves - remain firm and steadfast in your quest - it will be worth it. Good luck! Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:15:15 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <199708210121.VAA10634@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: kymsmith@micron.net > Subject: Re: Internet and TS > Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 7:23 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > >BTW, I will respond to any poster on this except Bart. > > Although I can understand completely why you choose not to exchange with > Bart, I must say that publically excommunicating someone on theos-l makes me > jumpy. It seems the complete opposite of what this avenue (theos-l) is here > for. It also raises the question whether this type of event qualifies as > "group" business, or is something between individuals which should be left > alone. Got me. > > And, oddly, the more Bart is "punished" the more I feel for him - he's > becoming the one who is persecuted and with that impression comes sympathy, > even though I know Bart dug his own hole - but don't we all? To be ignored > hurts, and it hurts alot - which is why the silent treatment can be so > powerful. > > One more observation: We can't argue for Wheaton to listen to us if we > won't listen to each other. I appreciate your opinion Kym. But at this time I need a cooling off period in terms of communicating with Bart. I still occasionally read Bart's posts, I just don't want to emotionally respond to them at this time. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:10:54 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <199708210121.VAA10625@cliff.concentric.net> > Several months ago, I posted a msg inquiring if any one has seen any critque > of Tillett wherein any factual errors in his books were identified. I did > not get any response. > > Again I think if factual errors are there, then all of us should know so > that they can be taken into consideration when evaluating or forming our own > opinion about the book. > > ...........mkr > My favorite Tillett tidbit was the one where he said Wedgewood hid cocaine in his crozier. I told that one to my husband and he immediately, said, "CocaCrozier!" The few pages of Tillett that I have read have reminded me of a Theosophical National Enquirer. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:37:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: In message <199708201402.KAA20738@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >Another NYTS guy horrified some of my friends in the Maryland >lodge by saying of Madame Blavatsky's Baboon, "No, I haven't >read it, and I have no intention of doing so. I've heard of >the negative attitude of the author." No doubt Peter >Washington has his own biases and is not particularly admiring >of HPB. But like it or not (and I have far more reason than >most *not* to like it) his book had a wider impact on the >public than any other theosophical book (meaning on >theosophical subjects) of the decade. It's disappointing that >a national TS leader would boycott it because he thought it >anti-HPB. Interesting. I recently read this book and loved it! While not flattering to many of the TS luminaries of the past and those who came after them (TS or not) it seemd to me to be (apart from the obvious digs at all our 'isms') a reasonabley objective view from someone *outside* the scene. A few very minor errors of fact, but nothing serious. Nearer the end of the book Peter W. mentioned a couple of men I have know personally during my lifetime - and closely during esoteric work. Both are now deceased, but not when the book was written, and his comments about them were very accurate, as my own historical investigations suggest were those of other more familiar names. Of course HPB wasn't perfect - and she was one of the first to shout it from the rooftops! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:28:12 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: The Light of Krishnamurti Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970821012812.006ae9cc@mail.eden.com> A new book on Krishnamurti has just come out. Title: The Light of Krishnamurti Author: Gabriele Blackburn ISBN: 0-9613054-4-4 Price: $14.00 US Publisher: Idylwild Books The author had known Krishnaji since she was a child. In the book, the author relates the many-faceted mystical and spiritual occurrences of J Krishnamurti as experience by her. The book highlights the author's life in relationship to these events, their extra-ordinary meaning, and the profound effect they had on her. Anyone interested in Krishnamurti may like the book. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:18:17 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: CYBERTI Message-ID: <33FBB379.42C7@gil.net> JRC, Better than a great idea ! I wish you the success you wish for yourselves.Application please. Just one thing to add WATCH THOSE BY-LAWS ! Peace Profound Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 02:51:42 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Beyond a reasonable doubt Message-ID: <3410a4c3.31538703@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >People will say women are inferior to men simply because they are women, I'm not aware of anyone who says this. Could you give an example? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:54:48 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <33FBBC08.247A@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > Interesting. I recently read this book and loved it! While not > flattering to many of the TS luminaries of the past and those who came > after them (TS or not) it seemd to me to be (apart from the obvious digs > at all our 'isms') a reasonabley objective view from someone *outside* > the scene. A few very minor errors of fact, but nothing serious. These "minor errors" include, for example, the premise of the book (how Spiritualism came from England to the United States; sorry, but it went in the OTHER direction!). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:26:33 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Beyond a reasonable doubt Message-ID: <3421ea41.49204835@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> I wrote: >Kym wrote: >>People will say women are inferior to men simply because they are women, >I'm not aware of anyone who says this. Could you give an example? And when you give what you believe to be an example, let's agree on two things: 1) I'll agree to have an open mind to the possibility that you've given a real example of it if you'll agree to have an open mind to the possibility that you have really given an example of a way in which women really are inferior (so that, for example, someone saying that women are weaker tennis players than men are doesn't count) and 2) let's agree that determining the difference between the two is never completely objective, but there is always an element of doubt, even in the most obvious cases. The problem with the way you worded that is that even real sexists will never say that they believe that women are intrinsically inferior to men. It is always more subtle than that, and always mixed with truth. That's why it is so hard to detect and why care should be taken before accusing people of it, in order for the accusation to be effective when it is deserved. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:26:26 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Announcement of a search engine on Theosophy Message-ID: <33FC33F2.6F8E@eden.com> Here is a search engine that can be of much help in searching. I saw this on theosophy world. mkr -------------------------------------- Theos-World New Site Search Engine and "Collation of Theosophical Glossaries" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 04:40:40 -0700 From: "MYTHOS" For those who may be interested, The Theosophical Society International Headquarters (www.theosociety.org/pasadena ) has added a search engine to its site which will allow the user to search the full text of all the books online. Theosophy Northwest (www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw) has also added a search engine to their site which gives it the capability of searching the over 450 articles and many other items online. The newest addition to this site is the "Collation of Theosophical Glossaries." This work contains definitions of theosophical and metaphysical terms from several theosophical books integrated into one alphabetical listing. These include Blavatsky's "Theosophical Glossary," Judge's "Working Glossary," Purucker's "Occult Glossary," and Barborka's "Gods and Heroes of the Bhagavad-Gita" in their entirety; the glossaries from Blavatsky's "Key to Theosophy" and "Voice of the Silence," "Five Years of Theosophy," Titchenell's "Masks of Odin," Moffett's in "Esotericism of the Popol Vuh;" terms from "Isis Unveiled," Tyberg's "Sanskrit Keys to the Wisdom Religion," and Hall's "Sanskrit Pronunciation." (All Copyrighted material included with permission.) Scott J.Osterhage From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:35:56 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes Message-ID: <199708211233.IAA25554@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: kymsmith@micron.net > Subject: Re: Schemes of Chains, Rounds and Globes > Date: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 1:06 PM > > Now that's a challenge! One of the problems with Theosophy and Theosophists > is the sqeamishness about putting Theosophy into the "language of the > masses." What would happen to "us" if "they" all knew as much as "we" did!? > Shudder. "We" are "they". We just don't know it. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:56:44 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <199708211454.KAA23442@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy > Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 8:26 PM > > In message <199708201402.KAA20738@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" > writes > >Another NYTS guy horrified some of my friends in the Maryland > >lodge by saying of Madame Blavatsky's Baboon, Could you give the full title and publisher of the book? I'm going to a big book store next Tuesday in downtown Chicago and could pick it up or order it. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:07:48 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970821150748.00bafca0@mail.eden.com> I think the author is Peter Washington? The bookstore may be able to identify the book and you may find it in stock. mkr At 10:54 AM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: Dr. A.M.Bain >> Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy >> Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 8:26 PM >> >> In message <199708201402.KAA20738@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" >> writes >> >Another NYTS guy horrified some of my friends in the Maryland >> >lodge by saying of Madame Blavatsky's Baboon, > >Could you give the full title and publisher of the book? >I'm going to a big book store next Tuesday in downtown >Chicago and could pick it up or order it. > >A. Safron > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:19:13 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <33FC6A81.2938@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > Could you give the full title and publisher of the book? > I'm going to a big book store next Tuesday in downtown > Chicago and could pick it up or order it. Madame Blavatsky's Baboon : A History of the Mystics, Mediums, and Misfits Who Brought Spiritualism to America by Peter Washington Paperback Published by Schocken Books Publication date: January 1, 1996 Dimensions (in inches): 8.01 x 5.20 x 1.02 ISBN: 0805210245 Note that the even title itself contains a major error in fact: Spiritualism was not brought to America, it originated in America. Also, I have no problem with your not replying to me. That is your right and privilege. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:27:33 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Blatant Sexism! Message-ID: <199708211727.KAA20877@palrel3.hp.com> mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) wrote: > But when social pressures sanction such ridiculous outcomes as women tennis > players successfully demanding to be paid as much as men tennis players, > there is imbalance ... [snip] > Women's legitimate angers would be far more credible and be taken far more > seriously if their illegitimate ones were eliminated. This must be done in right proportion. In a perfect world where victims are as detached from their suffering as non-victims, your approach might work. I still think that starting with trivia like the above or giving primary attention to them is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. When we are angry over atrocities, whether we are male or female, sometimes peripheral things are magnified or even distorted. I don't know about you, but when I am angry over something legitimate, I want my major concerns to be listened to first, then I am reassured and in a better place to take care of peripheral matters. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 15:05:29 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Bias etc. Message-ID: <199708211905.PAA27211@leo.vsla.edu> The person in NYTS who said what he did about the Washington book was indeed a national leader, former board member in fact. I don't think the folks who heard him say that would take much note otherwise. OF COURSE there is no obligation for all Theosophists to read every book on Theosophy that comes out. However, I think anyone who claims a leadership role should be willing to read the biggest book of the decade on the subject, like it or not. This from a person who has cause to resent Washington for getting attention that might otherwise have been paid to more scholarly books on HPB/Theosophy. His book has major flaws but deserves to be read, I don't think there's a single reason to exclude Tillett that wouldn't also require exclusion of most Theosophical books. Except that is for the real reason, which is that ES folks don't like him for bursting their bubble, and don't want word to get out about CWL. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:31:26 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: Hi to all (a big question) Message-ID: <33FC978D.3908@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hi gang, it's me again. a bit relief of some thesis work. I remember the other day, i do not know if this has been discused here, of a movie that i saw, "Howard's end" and i remember that the lady (i do not remember the name now, but she has acted in quite a lot movies of that time- the middle 19 century i guess.. well, in that movie, that lady and the main actor (Antony Hopkins, that plays the villain in that movie) dissert about Theosophy and madame Blavatsky. Is it possible that are more Theosophist actors and actresses that we know? and another question, Are really Theosophic actors/actresses? (I guess so, but maybe some versed pepole here know more than i do.) Alan? Doss? bye. Estrella P.S. (Waiting anxiously for the answer) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:41:19 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Bias etc. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970821194119.00bd8f58@mail.eden.com> At 03:05 PM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote: > >The person in NYTS who said what he did about the Washington >book was indeed a national leader, former board member in >fact. I don't think the folks who heard him say that would >take much note otherwise. OF COURSE there is no obligation for >all Theosophists to read every book on Theosophy that comes >out. However, I think anyone who claims a leadership role >should be willing to read the biggest book of the decade on the >subject, like it or not. This from a person who has cause to >resent Washington for getting attention that might otherwise >have been paid to more scholarly books on HPB/Theosophy. >His book has major flaws but deserves to be read, > >I don't think there's a single reason to exclude Tillett that >wouldn't also require exclusion of most Theosophical books. >Except that is for the real reason, which is that ES folks don't like >him for bursting their bubble, and don't want word to get out >about CWL. > What is going on is nothing new. It has happened before. For example, the well known book by Ernest Wood -- Is this Theosophy.... which was published in 1936, I did not get to find out about the book until a couple of years ago. I had been to many TS Lodge Libraries -- some of them had books even Adyar Library did not have -- and none of them had the book. I don't know if you have seen the book. ..............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:39:52 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: another question (to Eldon) Message-ID: <33FC9988.6C79@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Gee whiz, i think i forgot your e-mail, Eldon. I'm back and i want to reasume my suscription to the magazine and the mail list. is it possible? Thanks. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:35:36 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Bias etc. Message-ID: <33FCA698.726C@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > What is going on is nothing new. It has happened before. For example, the > well known book by Ernest Wood -- Is this Theosophy.... which was published > in 1936, I did not get to find out about the book until a couple of years > ago. I had been to many TS Lodge Libraries -- some of them had books even > Adyar Library did not have -- and none of them had the book. I don't know if > you have seen the book. The New York Lodge Library has it. But I can't see why any Lodge would purposely not carry it. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:29:19 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Practical Aspects of Globes Message-ID: <199708220001.UAA32245@NetGSI.com> >> The solar system and >>beyond echo this scheme of interpenentrating bodies, evolving at different >>planes and for different purposes. > >So it is said. How can we verify any of this? Is there an obvious >practical application? Yes. Its called magick. It is verified by direct experience ala magic or yoga, and its practical applications come into play with the lessons learned in these places. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:31:54 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Evolution- so what? Message-ID: <199708220001.UAA32248@NetGSI.com> >>Life waves move from planet to planet in our solar system and if we may >>speculate like the science fiction writers from galaxy to galaxy. > >This also may well be true, so how does it help us here and now? By giving us a proper sense of our true place in the universe. If everything evolves into deities, then perhaps we shouldn't kill animals, destroy the forests, rape the land, etc. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:42:12 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <199708220001.UAA32252@NetGSI.com> >The message of Theosophy - on the practical side - is very similiar to other >philosophies/religions - and it is: to be kind, treat others as you would >like to be treated, be compassionate, always recognize the divinity in all >of us. You may be right in what you say here, but I really can't see where Theosophy as such comes into play with it. This is exactly the "message" of Christianity, Islam, and virtually every world religion. So, what do we need Theosophy for, if its just another religion? I see it as something very different. Its message, to me, is to go out there are discover Truth yourself. You won't find it in books, but you can find it within yourself, if you know how to look. I think that what you say here is true if you divorce Theosophy from magic (or practical occultism, if you prefer). And a lot of folks do exactly this. But I can't. Theosophy goes with magic, the one theoretical and the other practical. Without magic or occult practice (i.e., techniques) then Theosophy is just another religion--which may be OK, but I prefer to think it more than that. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:55:23 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: New Web Pages Message-ID: <199708220001.UAA32254@NetGSI.com> For those interested, I have finally got my home page up and running. Its on http://www.netgsi.com/~gschueler If you like cats, check out my cattery page on http://www.shellay.com where Shellay is the name of our cattery. Its got some nice pictures of Norwegian Forest Cats. Jerry S. Mfember, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:30:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Announcement of a search engine on Theosophy Message-ID: In message <33FC33F2.6F8E@eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >For those who may be interested, The Theosophical Society International >Headquarters (www.theosociety.org/pasadena ) has added a search engine >to >its site which will allow the user to search the full text of all the >books >online. There is a link to this site from the TI site (below). Click on "Classic texts plus". Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:46:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Evolution- so what? Message-ID: <6LfYpbA6FO$zEwL7@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199708220001.UAA32248@NetGSI.com>, Jerry Schueler writes >>>Life waves move from planet to planet in our solar system and if we may >>>speculate like the science fiction writers from galaxy to galaxy. >> >>This also may well be true, so how does it help us here and now? > >By giving us a proper sense of our true place in the universe. If >everything >evolves into deities, then perhaps we shouldn't kill animals, destroy the >forests, rape the land, etc. > >Jerry S. >Member, TI Food for thought indeed. Thanks. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:44:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: <+bWZ9RAfDO$zEwKl@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33FC6A81.2938@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >A. Safron wrote: >> >> Could you give the full title and publisher of the book? >> I'm going to a big book store next Tuesday in downtown >> Chicago and could pick it up or order it. > >Madame Blavatsky's Baboon : A >History of the Mystics, Mediums, >and Misfits Who Brought >Spiritualism to America >by Peter Washington >Paperback >Published by Schocken Books >Publication date: January 1, 1996 >Dimensions (in inches): 8.01 x 5.20 x 1.02 >ISBN: 0805210245 > > Note that the even title itself contains a major error in fact: >Spiritualism was not brought to America, it originated in America. > > Also, I have no problem with your not replying to me. That is your >right and privilege. > > Bart Lidofsky Interesting. The US title is without doubt misleading, though the US publisher could just about argue that said misfits brought spiritualism to America from within ... but essentially the subtitle is a completely false description of the book's contents. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:49:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: New Web Pages Message-ID: <2LQbZcAGIO$zEwqN@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199708220001.UAA32254@NetGSI.com>, Jerry Schueler writes >For those interested, I have finally got my home page up and running. >Its on http://www.netgsi.com/~gschueler > >If you like cats, check out my cattery page on http://www.shellay.com >where Shellay is the name of our cattery. Its got some nice pictures >of Norwegian Forest Cats. > >Jerry S. >Mfember, TI Thanks again, fellow mfember! Will do. Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:45:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hi to all (a big question) Message-ID: <473YlVAZEO$zEwpA@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33FC978D.3908@bahia.ens.uabc.mx>, Estrella writes >Is it possible that are more Theosophist actors and actresses that we >know? and another question, Are really Theosophic actors/actresses? >(I guess so, but maybe some versed pepole here know more than i do.) >Alan? Doss? >bye. >Estrella >P.S. (Waiting anxiously for the answer) Sorry - cannot help. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:27:06 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: In message <33FBBC08.247A@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >> Interesting. I recently read this book and loved it! While not >> flattering to many of the TS luminaries of the past and those who came >> after them (TS or not) it seemd to me to be (apart from the obvious digs >> at all our 'isms') a reasonabley objective view from someone *outside* >> the scene. A few very minor errors of fact, but nothing serious. > > These "minor errors" include, for example, the premise of the book (how >Spiritualism came from England to the United States; sorry, but it went >in the OTHER direction!). > > Bart Lidofsky Page 11: "Having taken root in America, spiritualism rapidly colonised Europe." AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:36:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy Message-ID: In message <199708211454.KAA23442@marconi.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >---------- >> From: Dr. A.M.Bain >> Subject: Re: Biased books/theosophy >> Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 8:26 PM >> >> In message <199708201402.KAA20738@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" >> writes >> >Another NYTS guy horrified some of my friends in the Maryland >> >lodge by saying of Madame Blavatsky's Baboon, > >Could you give the full title and publisher of the book? >I'm going to a big book store next Tuesday in downtown >Chicago and could pick it up or order it. > >A. Safron ~Madame Blavatsky's Baboon~ (Theosophy and the emergence of the western guru) by Peter Washington First Published in Great Britain in 1993 by Martin Secker & Warburg Ltd, and impring of Reed International Books Ltd. ISBN 0 436 20273 5 At the time of publication the author was General Editor of the Everyman Library, and a former lecturer in English and European Literature at Middlesex University. UK price was pounds 12.99. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:43:52 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Announcement of a search engine on Theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970822024352.00e66de0@mail.eden.com> At 09:07 PM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >In message <33FC33F2.6F8E@eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >>For those who may be interested, The Theosophical Society International >>Headquarters (www.theosociety.org/pasadena ) has added a search engine >>to >>its site which will allow the user to search the full text of all the >>books >>online. > >There is a link to this site from the TI site (below). Click on "Classic >texts plus". > >Alan It is the availability of links that is very inviting to visitors to the URL. A static URL which has incestuous links does not interest many. In the marketplace, many companies have spent a lot of money setting up a www and then try find techniques to make visitors visit their site -- a very tough marketing job. Keep up the good work, Alan. ............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:51:28 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Hi to all (a big question) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970822025128.00e87900@mail.eden.com> Hello, Estrella: Good to see you back. I also saw the movie, but it was moving very slowly. There are a lot of people in movie industry who have been exposed to Theosophy and Krishnamurti. The Theosophical Society had a branch in Hollywood long time ago and so in a way there is some connection with TS. Also it should be noted that many of the script writers are generally open minded and are willing to expand on some of the new age stuff. So don't be surprised if you find Theosophy in disguise presented to the public. mkr At 03:46 PM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi gang, it's me again. a bit relief of some thesis work. >I remember the other day, i do not know if this has been discused here, >of a movie that i saw, "Howard's end" and i remember that the lady (i do >not remember the name now, but she has acted in quite a lot movies of >that time- the middle 19 century i guess.. well, in that movie, that >lady and the main actor (Antony Hopkins, that plays the villain in that >movie) dissert about Theosophy and madame Blavatsky. >Is it possible that are more Theosophist actors and actresses that we >know? and another question, Are really Theosophic actors/actresses? >(I guess so, but maybe some versed pepole here know more than i do.) >Alan? Doss? >bye. >Estrella >P.S. (Waiting anxiously for the answer) > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:51:30 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Bias etc. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970822025130.00e893dc@mail.eden.com> At 04:37 PM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> What is going on is nothing new. It has happened before. For example, the >> well known book by Ernest Wood -- Is this Theosophy.... which was published >> in 1936, I did not get to find out about the book until a couple of years >> ago. I had been to many TS Lodge Libraries -- some of them had books even >> Adyar Library did not have -- and none of them had the book. I don't know if >> you have seen the book. > > The New York Lodge Library has it. But I can't see why any Lodge would >purposely not carry it. > > Bart Lidofsky > Good for the NYL. I don't know what other lodges have a copy. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:52:04 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970822025204.00e98ff0@mail.eden.com> At 08:23 PM 8/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >A. Safron wrote: > >>BTW, I will respond to any poster on this except Bart. > >Although I can understand completely why you choose not to exchange with >Bart, I must say that publically excommunicating someone on theos-l makes me >jumpy. It seems the complete opposite of what this avenue (theos-l) is here >for. It also raises the question whether this type of event qualifies as >"group" business, or is something between individuals which should be left >alone. Got me. > >And, oddly, the more Bart is "punished" the more I feel for him - he's >becoming the one who is persecuted and with that impression comes sympathy, >even though I know Bart dug his own hole - but don't we all? To be ignored >hurts, and it hurts alot - which is why the silent treatment can be so >powerful. > >One more observation: We can't argue for Wheaton to listen to us if we >won't listen to each other. > >Kym > I support 1000% what you have said. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:53:19 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: New Web Pages Message-ID: <33FCFF1F.3C94@sprynet.com> Jerry Schueler wrote: > If you like cats, check out my cattery page on http://www.shellay.com > where Shellay is the name of our cattery. Its got some nice pictures > of Norwegian Forest Cats. My wife and I are both cat-lovers, and are familiar with Norwegian Forest Cats. We once were considering getting one, but the skin problems turned us off; have those been fixed? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 08:27:18 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <199708221324.JAA18877@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Internet and TS > Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 9:56 PM > > At 08:23 PM 8/20/97 -0400, you wrote: > >A. Safron wrote: > > > >>BTW, I will respond to any poster on this except Bart. > > > >Although I can understand completely why you choose not to exchange with > >Bart, I must say that publically excommunicating someone on theos-l makes me > >jumpy. It seems the complete opposite of what this avenue (theos-l) is here > >for. It also raises the question whether this type of event qualifies as > >"group" business, or is something between individuals which should be left > >alone. Got me. > > > >And, oddly, the more Bart is "punished" the more I feel for him - he's > >becoming the one who is persecuted and with that impression comes sympathy, > >even though I know Bart dug his own hole - but don't we all? To be ignored > >hurts, and it hurts alot - which is why the silent treatment can be so > >powerful. > > > >One more observation: We can't argue for Wheaton to listen to us if we > >won't listen to each other. > > > > > > > >Kym > > > I support 1000% what you have said. > > mkr Look folks, I've been fighting a strep urinary infection since the beginning of June. I just don't have the energy to deal with Bart or much else. It is much easier for me simply not to get into it with anyone. Consider that he is not being ignored but that it is difficult to argue with him at this time. I am barely hanging in there physically and emotionally, so don't throw this it at me too. A. Safron > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:08:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: Hi Sorry to hear that you are not feeling well. I send my best thoughts for a speedy recovery and when you are back to 100% normal, would like to see your normal creative comments and posts. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, A. Safron wrote: > ---------- > > From: ramadoss@eden.com > > Subject: Re: Internet and TS > > Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 9:56 PM > > > > At 08:23 PM 8/20/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >A. Safron wrote: > > > > > >>BTW, I will respond to any poster on this except Bart. > > > > > >Although I can understand completely why you choose not to exchange with > > >Bart, I must say that publically excommunicating someone on theos-l makes me > > >jumpy. It seems the complete opposite of what this avenue (theos-l) is here > > >for. It also raises the question whether this type of event qualifies as > > >"group" business, or is something between individuals which should be left > > >alone. Got me. > > > > > >And, oddly, the more Bart is "punished" the more I feel for him - he's > > >becoming the one who is persecuted and with that impression comes sympathy, > > >even though I know Bart dug his own hole - but don't we all? To be ignored > > >hurts, and it hurts alot - which is why the silent treatment can be so > > >powerful. > > > > > >One more observation: We can't argue for Wheaton to listen to us if we > > >won't listen to each other. > > > > > > > > > > > >Kym > > > > > I support 1000% what you have said. > > > > mkr > > Look folks, I've been fighting a strep urinary infection since the beginning of June. > I just don't have the energy to deal with Bart or much else. It is much easier > for me simply not to get into it with anyone. Consider that he is not being ignored > but that it is difficult to argue with him at this time. I am barely hanging in there > physically and emotionally, so don't throw this it at me too. > > A. Safron > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:47:58 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Web Page Message-ID: <199708221544.LAA07544@mcfeely.concentric.net> To all subscribers: The original web page I had was entitled, "The Great Invocation". I have edited it and the title is now "The Liberal Catholic Church". Actually, because the search engines have no facility to rename or delete and resubmit, you can reach both page names with the same URL. http://www.concentric.net/~safron/ This page is much simpler, only featuring the churches and their locations around the world. Their are some links to other LCC churches, both in the US and around the world. Thank you, A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 11:57:15 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: TS celebs Message-ID: <199708221557.LAA23449@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Estrella, I have heard little about famous actors and actresses who were Theosophists. John Algeo has written about Dana Ivey, an older character actress, and the singer Burl Ives (who died in 1994 or so) as members of the TSA. I once asked a ULT leader if any famous people were members, and she named stage actress Constance Cummings (who must be way up there now if she's still alive.) In the 1890s a very famous actress, Florence Farr, was a Theosophist in London. But no one of such magnitude since then has been as far as I know. But hey, Scientology's the nastiest religion around and has a whole bunch of celebrity endorsements. Which should indicate the level of discernment found in Hollywood. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 12:22:11 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: TS celebs Message-ID: <33FDBCB3.65FD@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > But hey, Scientology's the nastiest religion around and has a > whole bunch of celebrity endorsements. Which should indicate > the level of discernment found in Hollywood. Or the level of blackmail found in Scientology. They get people to talk about their problems, and then threaten to make them public if the person ever tries to break away. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 12:53:36 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Baboon errors Message-ID: <199708221653.MAA29384@leo.vsla.edu> Like Alan, I didn't see any theory about Spiritualism coming to the US from England as a significant part of Peter Washington's book. But like Bart I do deplore the factual errors. It was rather insulting to have Frederick Crews announce to the world in the New York Review of Books that Washington's take on HPB was "cogent" and mine was not, in light of the fact that PW makes more than 50 errors on the subject of the Masters in just a couple of pages. He takes Leadbeaterian weirdness about Manu, Mahachohan etc. and attributes it all to HPB. To be *that* ignorant of one's title character is really amazing. But on other subjects he's amusing, and I recommend the book if for no other reason than showing the way HPB appears to a particular type of mind. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:45:04 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Baboon errors Message-ID: <33FDDE30.6324@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > Like Alan, I didn't see any theory about Spiritualism coming to > the US from England as a significant part of Peter Washington's > book. But like Bart I do deplore the factual errors. It was > rather insulting to have Frederick Crews announce to the world > in the New York Review of Books that Washington's take on HPB was > "cogent" and mine was not, in light of the fact that PW makes > more than 50 errors on the subject of the Masters in just a > couple of pages. He takes Leadbeaterian weirdness about > Manu, Mahachohan etc. and attributes it all to HPB. To be > *that* ignorant of one's title character is really amazing. > But on other subjects he's amusing, and I recommend the book if > for no other reason than showing the way HPB appears to a > particular type of mind. Well, he certainly does tell a good joke; I just wish that he didn't take the attitude not to let the facts get inot the way. As far as comparison, I happened to LIKE your book, and, at the Quest Bookshop, it is generally described as a "balanced" look. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:09:48 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: Just remembering (From this unknown world=the 3rd) Message-ID: <33FDF20C.1F15@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > In message <199708220001.UAA32248@NetGSI.com>, Jerry Schueler > writes > >>>Life waves move from planet to planet in our solar system and if we may > >>>speculate like the science fiction writers from galaxy to galaxy. > >> > >>This also may well be true, so how does it help us here and now? > > > >By giving us a proper sense of our true place in the universe. If > >everything > >evolves into deities, then perhaps we shouldn't kill animals, destroy the > >forests, rape the land, etc. > > > >Jerry S. > >Member, TI > > Food for thought indeed. Thanks. > > Alan And here in Mexico, we live that every day. (I guess in developed countries too, but here is more often used as the trashcan) Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:18:39 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: Books on net? Really? (HOW???) Message-ID: <33FDF41F.334F@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > Subject: Re: Announcement of a search engine on Theosophy > Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970822024352.00e66de0@mail.eden.com> > > At 09:07 PM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote: > >In message <33FC33F2.6F8E@eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes > >>For those who may be interested, The Theosophical Society International > >>Headquarters (www.theosociety.org/pasadena ) has added a search engine > >>to > >>its site which will allow the user to search the full text of all the > >>books > >>online. > > > >There is a link to this site from the TI site (below). Click on "Classic > >texts plus". > > > >Alan > > It is the availability of links that is very inviting to visitors to the > URL. A static URL which has incestuous links does not interest many. In the > marketplace, many companies have spent a lot of money setting up a www and > then try find techniques to make visitors visit their site -- a very tough > marketing job. > > Keep up the good work, Alan. > > ............mkr > Seems i do not understood really how this system of theosophical books on the net work. can someone explain it to me more clearly? Alan, is it simmilar that system to your book archive you have in your homepage of .zip compressed texts?? Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 20:58:02 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: TS celebs Message-ID: <3401f1cb.1523894@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> >K. Paul Johnson wrote: > >> But hey, Scientology's the nastiest religion around and has a >> whole bunch of celebrity endorsements. Which should indicate >> the level of discernment found in Hollywood. > > Or the level of blackmail found in Scientology. They get people to >talk about their problems, and then threaten to make them public if the >person ever tries to break away. > > Bart Lidofsky I took their personality test 15 years or so ago, and, due to how extremely screwed up they said I was, I shied away from them. I know someone who says he was conned of thousands of dollars from them and who spends a great deal of time picketing them, while believing he is risking his physical security in doing so. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:21:52 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: TS celebs Message-ID: <199708222240.SAA07833@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > Subject: Re: TS celebs > Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 4:02 PM > > >K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > > >> But hey, Scientology's the nastiest religion around and has a > >> whole bunch of celebrity endorsements. Which should indicate > >> the level of discernment found in Hollywood. > > > > Or the level of blackmail found in Scientology. They get people to >talk about their problems, and then threaten to make them public if the > >person ever tries to break away. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > I took their personality test 15 years or so ago, and, due to how > extremely screwed up they said I was, I shied away from them. I know > someone who says he was conned of thousands of dollars from them and > who spends a great deal of time picketing them, while believing he is > risking his physical security in doing so. I've read many personal accounts on the web that would make your hair stand on end. Ron Hubbard's own son committed suicide because he couldn't stand being part of the organization anymore. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:41:46 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Bias etc. Message-ID: <199708222240.SAA07877@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Bias etc. > Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 9:54 PM > > At 04:37 PM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote: > >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> What is going on is nothing new. It has happened before. For example, the > >> well known book by Ernest Wood -- Is this Theosophy.... which was published > >> in 1936, I did not get to find out about the book until a couple of years > >> ago. I had been to many TS Lodge Libraries -- some of them had books even > >> Adyar Library did not have -- and none of them had the book. I don't know if > >> you have seen the book. > > > > The New York Lodge Library has it. But I can't see why any Lodge would > >purposely not carry it. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > Good for the NYL. I don't know what other lodges have a copy. > > mkr Forgive me for saying this, but maybe New York is more sophisticated, therefore their collection of literature would also be more inclusive. A. Safron > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:32:33 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <199708222240.SAA07855@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Jerry Schueler > Subject: Is Theosophy a Religion? > Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 7:02 PM > > >The message of Theosophy - on the practical side - is very similiar to > other > >philosophies/religions - and it is: to be kind, treat others as you would > >like to be treated, be compassionate, always recognize the divinity in all > >of us. > > You may be right in what you say here, but I really can't see where > Theosophy as such comes into play with it. This is exactly the > "message" of Christianity, Islam, and virtually every world religion. > So, what do we need Theosophy for, if its just another religion? > I see it as something very different. Its message, to me, is to go > out there are discover Truth yourself. You won't find it in books, > but you can find it within yourself, if you know how to look. I think it all gets lost in the power plays - who wants to be on top and who wants to wear the red hat. Compassion goes the window and the recognition of divinity is lost in the shape of one's haircut. How many followers do we have? How much money did we collect? How many buildings do we have? How many women can we keep servile while we play boss? How many pieces of land can we grab? I could go on, but it's all the same lies. A. Safron BTW, Bart, I'm talking to you again, for what it's worth and that ain't probably much. I never thought it was a big deal not to reply to you for a while. I would think you would be glad. :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:04:38 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: About Hollywood and Blavatsky Message-ID: <33FE1B06.2C38@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hey, i just was remembering...someone said in a late magazine of theos-world, that they were making a movie on Theosophy and HPB, i hope it releases soon, and i really hope it to be a BLOCKBUSTER!! Yeeahhh!! No better than the communication media to transmit the lifework, the feeling and dreams of Blavatsky and pepole related.. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:07:49 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Books on net? Really? (HOW???) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970822230749.00f17158@mail.eden.com> At 04:20 PM 8/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >> Subject: Re: Announcement of a search engine on Theosophy >> Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970822024352.00e66de0@mail.eden.com> >> >> At 09:07 PM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >In message <33FC33F2.6F8E@eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >> >>For those who may be interested, The Theosophical Society International >> >>Headquarters (www.theosociety.org/pasadena ) has added a search engine >> >>to >> >>its site which will allow the user to search the full text of all the >> >>books >> >>online. >> > >> >There is a link to this site from the TI site (below). Click on "Classic >> >texts plus". >> > >> >Alan >> >> It is the availability of links that is very inviting to visitors to the >> URL. A static URL which has incestuous links does not interest many. In the >> marketplace, many companies have spent a lot of money setting up a www and >> then try find techniques to make visitors visit their site -- a very tough >> marketing job. >> >> Keep up the good work, Alan. >> >> ............mkr >> > >Seems i do not understood really how this system of theosophical books >on the net work. can someone explain it to me more clearly? >Alan, is it simmilar that system to your book archive you have in your >homepage of .zip compressed texts?? > >Estrella > Hi, Estrella: A search engine is just a program which lets you search through a number of files looking for a selected number of words you are looking for. For locating all references relating to a one or more *key* words. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:35:14 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Books on net? Really? (HOW???) Message-ID: In message <33FDF41F.334F@bahia.ens.uabc.mx>, Estrella writes >Seems i do not understood really how this system of theosophical books >on the net work. can someone explain it to me more clearly? >Alan, is it simmilar that system to your book archive you have in your >homepage of .zip compressed texts?? 1. Visit website below 2. Click on "Classic texts Plus" .. all will become clear! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:38:42 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: TS celebs Message-ID: <33FE3F22.1AD0@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > I took their personality test 15 years or so ago, and, due to how > extremely screwed up they said I was, I shied away from them. I know > someone who says he was conned of thousands of dollars from them and > who spends a great deal of time picketing them, while believing he is > risking his physical security in doing so. You are aware of how they use courts as an instrument of revenge, aren't you? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:41:11 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <33FE3FB7.3A4B@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > BTW, Bart, I'm talking to you again, for what it's worth and that > ain't probably much. I never thought it was a big deal not to > reply to you for a while. I would think you would be glad. :-) As long as you're talking to me, I took a look at your new web page. I will obtain Ed Abdill's (rector of St. Michael's in New York, and President of the New York Lodge) email address, so that you can add it to your list. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:54:58 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: The NFC Message-ID: <199708230204.WAA18292@NetGSI.com> >>Jerry Schueler wrote: >> If you like cats, check out my cattery page on http://www.shellay.com >> where Shellay is the name of our cattery. Its got some nice pictures >> of Norwegian Forest Cats. > > My wife and I are both cat-lovers, and are familiar with Norwegian >Forest Cats. We once were considering getting one, but the skin problems >turned us off; have those been fixed? > > Bart Lidofsky I am not sure what "skin problems" you refer to?? The Norwegian Forest Cat (NFC) is a northern cat and unlike any other domestic cat. It is the smartest. It is genetically social (thus is like a dog in cats clothing--can be trained, etc). Its hair is like fur and is hypoallergenic (spelling??) -- we sell to a lot of folks who are allergic to cats. My wife, Betty, has asthma, and the NFC is the only cat she can tolerate (which is a good thing since we have the biggest NFC cattery in the US, as far as I know). Jerry S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 23:21:11 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970823042111.0076ddbc@mail.eden.com> At 06:42 PM 8/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: Jerry Schueler >> Subject: Is Theosophy a Religion? >> Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 7:02 PM >> >> >The message of Theosophy - on the practical side - is very similiar to >> other >> >philosophies/religions - and it is: to be kind, treat others as you would >> >like to be treated, be compassionate, always recognize the divinity in all >> >of us. >> >> You may be right in what you say here, but I really can't see where >> Theosophy as such comes into play with it. This is exactly the >> "message" of Christianity, Islam, and virtually every world religion. >> So, what do we need Theosophy for, if its just another religion? >> I see it as something very different. Its message, to me, is to go >> out there are discover Truth yourself. You won't find it in books, >> but you can find it within yourself, if you know how to look. > > >I think it all gets lost in the power plays - who wants to be on top and >who wants to wear the red hat. Compassion goes the window and >the recognition of divinity is lost in the shape of one's haircut. >How many followers do we have? How much money did we collect? >How many buildings do we have? How many women can we keep >servile while we play boss? How many pieces of land can we grab? >I could go on, but it's all the same lies. > >A. Safron > >BTW, Bart, I'm talking to you again, for what it's worth and that >ain't probably much. I never thought it was a big deal not to >reply to you for a while. I would think you would be glad. :-) ---------------------- MKR writes: In the days of HPB, when much of the critical work was done, all these problems were not there. In those days there was very little money and those who worked did for love of the work and not the fame or money. Here is an interesting quote from "Candles in the Sun" which is very interesting. " Two very important recruits joined the T.S., that year (1911): Miss. Mary Dodge, and Muriel, Countess De La Warr. Miss. Dodge was an immensely rich American and, without exception, the most nobly generous woman I have ever met. She was crippled with arthritis, and was in a wheel-chair all the time I knew her. She had known my husband before I met her. He had gone on a cruise with her in the Baltic in 1906. Soon after I joined the T.S., she invited me to come and see her at Warwick House, St. James's, which she had rented and shared with Lady De La Warr, her close friend. Miss. Dodge had been interested in Spiritualism, and knew something of Theosophy. I gave her a glowing account of what it meant to me, and soon afterwards she and Lady De La Warr both became members. From that moment Miss. Dodge poured out her fortune in the furtherance of Theosophy and in helping individual Theosophists. There was no limit to her kindness and generosity, but I regret to say that in my opinion her generosity was a great factor in the degeneration of T.S. Until then, those who worked for the Society were inspired by a spirit of self-sacrifice -- they worked for love -- but with the advent of Miss Dodge's fortune a new spirit crept in. The wildest schemes were financed by her and salaries were given to all who worked at headquarters. When, later, another recent convert to Theosophy, who was also an ardent Socialist, insisted on trade union rates of wages being paid to all workers, there began a scramble among Theosophists for lucrative jobs. This is not intended in any way as a slur on Miss. Dodge, but merely as an example of how money can corrupt a spiritual organization." I am sure there will be those who will argue how money is all important and so on. They are entitled to their opinion. YMDMV .........mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:37:38 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: The NFC Message-ID: <199708230437.WAA20883@mailmx.micron.net> Jerry wrote: >>> If you like cats, check out my cattery page on http://www.shellay.com >>> where Shellay is the name of our cattery. Its got some nice pictures >>> of Norwegian Forest Cats. I visited your web page and found the care, comfort, and concern toward the cats admirable. However, your diligence in breeding these animals does not alleviate the main problem breeders contribute to - the overpopulation of animals and the emphasis on animals as commodities. For every cat you breed - and one does wonder how the "breedee" feels about this - and sell, there is one less home available for a "regular run-of-the-mill" animal who finds itself in a shelter, city pound, or homeless. Manufacturing cats (genetically altering) is certainly risky for the animal as it is the one who suffers physically and mentally for any "mistakes" whereas the human suffers a setback to the wallet. A fair trade-off? There is also the well-known risk of lowering an animal's immune system the more "purebred" the animal becomes. From a "big picture" point of view - is making a cat hypoallergenic for those who are allergic to cats worth it? Selling animals for $400 to $1200 (as you do) caters to a select group of people - and creates a "hierarchy" of animals. Why get a Dodge if you can afford a Ferrari? Unfortunately, this myth is human created - and again, it is the animals that suffer. And those who purchase animals from breeders are half the problem - for there would be no breeders if people weren't willing to shell out money. Your web page said you sometimes involve the cats in Assisted Living programs - that is very worthwhile - but there is an animal sitting alone in a city pound who would be thrilled and more than able to do the same. We are the guardians of this planet and its inhabitants - the manufacture, breeding, and selling of companion animals doesn't sound like the road to travel on the way to Compassion. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 19:54:06 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky Message-ID: <199708231315.JAA11357@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Estrella > Subject: About Hollywood and Blavatsky > Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 6:02 PM > > Hey, i just was remembering...someone said in a late magazine of > theos-world, that they were making a movie on Theosophy and HPB, i hope > it releases soon, and i really hope it to be a BLOCKBUSTER!! > Yeeahhh!! > No better than the communication media to transmit the lifework, the > feeling and dreams of Blavatsky and pepole related.. > Estrella A very well-known director once said that today you need three things in a successful movie today: nudity, violence and murder. I can see it now- Sharon Stone playing HPB doing a shower scene with Olcott, who is played by Brad Pitt. If there is such a movie made, they are usually shown in a small art theatre. It's a major miracle that "My Dinner with Andre" got made and got distribiuted. I was actually able to rent it from Blockbuster. Another goodie, little known, is "The New Age". A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 08:26:31 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <199708231323.JAA15157@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? > Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 8:44 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > BTW, Bart, I'm talking to you again, for what it's worth and that > > ain't probably much. I never thought it was a big deal not to > > reply to you for a while. I would think you would be glad. :-) > > As long as you're talking to me, I took a look at your new web page. I > will obtain Ed Abdill's (rector of St. Michael's in New York, and > President of the New York Lodge) email address, so that you can add it > to your list. > > Bart Lidofsky GOODIE! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 08:25:00 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: The NFC Message-ID: <199708231323.JAA15139@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Jerry Schueler > Subject: The NFC > Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 9:26 PM > > I am not sure what "skin problems" you refer to?? > The Norwegian Forest Cat (NFC) is a northern cat and > unlike any other domestic cat. It is the smartest. I've heard that same description of the Siammese cat! I own one that is mixed breed. I had one other (cream-point) for 10 yrs. before he passed on. Then the next Christmas all the pet stores had Siammese kittens. I'd staand there with tears in my eyes. I finally caved in and bought one for $150. Now I have this lavender-point who seems to spend her life either on or under the bed. >It is > genetically social (thus is like a dog in cats clothing--can > be trained, etc). Its hair is like fur and is hypoallergenic > (spelling??) -- we sell to a lot of folks who are allergic > to cats. My wife, Betty, has asthma, and the NFC is the > only cat she can tolerate (which is a good thing since we > have the biggest NFC cattery in the US, as far as I know). > Really enjoyed your page and showed it to my husband. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 15:25:11 +0100 From: business@eyedeal.u-net.com (Gary Somai) Subject: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? (just a thought) Message-ID: Outwardly there are many antichrists, whereas inwardly there is only one beast on which an AC can ride, and this is not about the humble ass that Jesus rode on, but the fiery dragon that the AC rides on. Do not make judgements of others, even if they should judge you, for it is this comparitive understanding that serves the nature of the beast. Our measurable knowledge is symbolic of Adam and Eve eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, which has bound them or clothed them with a finite existence, (i.e. to measure, calculate & fix comparitive material conditions in order to finitely understand the world and universe around them and judge accordingly). Is it not the left side of the brain, or your forehead that counts the number of the beast, (consciously measures, or conditionally states: "A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine), so that all knowledge becomes calculated and relative to the individual? (i.e. the "I Know" of each seperated ego). The number of the beast IS the number of a man, and that man is "YOU". If you do not believe this, then just count, and continue to measure until you reach your eventual finite end result. The number 666 is man's imperfect trinity, for it is symbolic of the imperfection of man's finite knowledge, not the perfection of infinite knowledge, i.e. wisdom, which has no actual number, because it is sealed until mankind reaches a higher level of existence, by making use of the immeasurable and undefinable quaternary. Open your spiritual eyes and the fear will be taken from you. The finite boundary of your external senses is the unavoidable consequence of light and matter (Lucifer) falling away from the incorporeal truth into the bottomless pit, (space), from the dawn of time, and this will continue so into eternity, until mankind finally conquers relative concepts and eats the fruit from the Tree of Life. Every person has the potential of using his/her free will, to discover and receive wisdom (the infinite, immeasurable and unconditional Truth, or divine knowledge), as against the pain that the bound-up and seperated ego inflicts onto itself. If you want to defeat the beast within yourself, then you must fight the beast with the sword of Truth. Do not fight from bottom to top, and left to right, for this is man's devouring attempt to grasp the Truth, using finite knowledge. First you must find a way to open the door to Truth, then make the ultimate sacrifice, (not bodily sacrifices, for that is the worst type of measurable evil taught by the word of Satan). Hope is a star which shall lead you to wisdom, so that you then have the means to fight the beast from the Top to the bottom, and from right to left, for this is where you shall receive divine revelation. Moral: If too many continue to worship the beast by judging and making unequal black and white comparisons within themselves, (based on the measurable foundations of their not so humble and severe belief systems), then the phrase "As above, so below", may just become manifested into the reality of their own self-imposed idolatry. Do you have the courage and strength to overcome your inner fear of the Truth?. Are you one of Christ's true soldiers?, or must you always hide behind that false image to which your fiery ego gives power and great authority. Remember, without the cycle of change, (or the sacrifice of the heretic), earth will never reach heaven, but then heaven will always reach earth. (-:Y:-) Gary S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 09:52:48 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <199708231652.JAA08339@palrel3.hp.com> ramadoss@eden.com quoted: >> There was no limit to her kindness and generosity, but I regret to say that >> in my opinion her generosity was a great factor in the degeneration of >> T.S. Until then, those who worked for the Society were inspired by a spirit >> of self-sacrifice -- they worked for love -- but with the advent of Miss >> Dodge's fortune a new spirit crept in." > I am sure there will be those who will argue how money is all important and > so on. They are entitled to their opinion. YMDMV .........mkr Good points. If we concentrate on our spiritual work, I think we're karmically given about the amount of money that is beneficial for us. If a legitimate need arises for more, God can provide it. If He/She doesn't, chances are that our envisioned need is not really essential. I've heard a number of stories of people who win the lotteries, and end up very unhappy or, incredibly, in deep debt because they spend more than they get. Obviously their priorities were not right. Others with right attitudes have earned money from past lives and it doesn't spoil them. James J. Lynn, Yogananda's disciple was an example of the latter. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 14:39:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Baboon errors Message-ID: <970823143934_756693546@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-22 14:12:41 EDT, you write: >But on other subjects he's amusing, and I recommend the book if >for no other reason than showing the way HPB appears to a >particular type of mind. > When I first saw the title, I wondered why someone would write a book about Col. Olcott. Then it was obvious he was trying to write about HPB and he does have some good stories in there. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 14:48:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky Message-ID: <970823144835_84400046@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-23 07:09:14 EDT, you write: >Hey, i just was remembering...someone said in a late magazine of >theos-world, that they were making a movie on Theosophy and HPB, i hope >it releases soon, and i really hope it to be a BLOCKBUSTER!! >Yeeahhh!! >No better than the communication media to transmit the lifework, the >feeling and dreams of Blavatsky and pepole related.. >Estrella The only problem is that there hasn't been anyone in hollywood BIG enough to play her since Kate Smith passed on to the Great Lunch Counter in the sky. Considering what hollywood does to people though, the thought of a movie about HPB should probably fill us with fear and trembling because it will be very hard not to have it funny in all the wrong places (with the masters as intentional comic relief). Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 14:34:36 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <33FF3B4C.3C25@eden.com> Titus Roth wrote: > > ramadoss@eden.com quoted: > > >> There was no limit to her kindness and generosity, but I regret to say that > >> in my opinion her generosity was a great factor in the degeneration of > >> T.S. Until then, those who worked for the Society were inspired by a spirit > >> of self-sacrifice -- they worked for love -- but with the advent of Miss > >> Dodge's fortune a new spirit crept in." > > > I am sure there will be those who will argue how money is all important and > > so on. They are entitled to their opinion. YMDMV .........mkr > > Good points. > > If we concentrate on our spiritual work, I think we're karmically given about > the amount of money that is beneficial for us. If a legitimate need arises for > more, God can provide it. If He/She doesn't, chances are that our envisioned > need is not really essential. > > I've heard a number of stories of people who win the lotteries, and end up > very unhappy or, incredibly, in deep debt because they spend more than they > get. Obviously their priorities were not right. Others with right attitudes > have earned money from past lives and it doesn't spoil them. James J. Lynn, > Yogananda's disciple was an example of the latter. I agree. I have seen that none of the activites of a spiritual organization has ever suffered for want of funds. Of course the organizers have to use all their creativity to get the activity accomplished with limited means. The most glaring example of all is the TS itself. HPB and HSO were always short of funds when they launched TS and it the early days and a super network of branches and centers were established all over the world. Even in my personal life, many kinds of help has come forth, none of which money could not buy. Even in spiritual organizations, when the money issues come up, I have again and again seen how secretive the organization becomes as far as disclosing anything relative to the money, their sources, the expenditures and justification thereof. Also there is a lot of waste. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 18:00:36 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <33FF5D84.172C@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > I am sure there will be those who will argue how money is all important and > so on. They are entitled to their opinion. And I am sure that there is a middle road. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 21:46:43 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <3418770a.35386090@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Doss wrote: >Here is an interesting quote from "Candles in the Sun" which is very >interesting. .. >"I regret to say that in my opinion her generosity was a great factor in the >degeneration of T.S. Until then, those who worked for the Society were >inspired by a spirit of self-sacrifice -- they worked for love -- but with >the advent of Miss Dodge's fortune a new spirit crept in. The wildest >schemes were financed by her and salaries were given to all who worked at >headquarters. When, later, another recent convert to Theosophy, who was >also an ardent Socialist, insisted on trade union rates of wages being paid >to all workers, there began a scramble among Theosophists for lucrative >jobs. This is not intended in any way as a slur on Miss. Dodge, but merely >as an example of how money can corrupt a spiritual organization." > >I am sure there will be those who will argue how money is all important and >so on. They are entitled to their opinion. > >YMDMV > >.........mkr It doesn't surprise me that a Socialist instituted the policies that led to such corruption. This is yet another example of how the further removed that the source of money is from its use, the more corruption there is. The welfare system of the United States may be the best example. "The Tragedy of American Compassion," by Marvin Olasky makes a great case for the poor being better taken care of directly by private individuals than remotely by government, and how bad compassion drives out good. HPB recommended personal, direct giving, rather than letting it pass through other hands. There is nothing wrong with money - the more, the better. But those who give it have a great responsibility to see that it is used properly, or they share responsibility for the evil that its misuse causes. Miss Dodge, generous as she was, also deserves a slur. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 18:07:26 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The NFC Message-ID: <33FF5F1E.624B@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Jerry wrote: > > >>> If you like cats, check out my cattery page on http://www.shellay.com > >>> where Shellay is the name of our cattery. Its got some nice pictures > >>> of Norwegian Forest Cats. > > I visited your web page and found the care, comfort, and concern toward the > cats admirable. However, your diligence in breeding these animals does not > alleviate the main problem breeders contribute to - the overpopulation of > animals and the emphasis on animals as commodities. For every cat you breed > - and one does wonder how the "breedee" feels about this - and sell, there > is one less home available for a "regular run-of-the-mill" animal who finds > itself in a shelter, city pound, or homeless. In this particular case, Norwegian Forest Cats have a number of advantages over common cats. Not the least of these is that they are highly hypoallergenic; people who otherwise would not be able to have a cat at all can have Norwegian Forest Cats. Of course, they DO eat meat... Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 14:01:52 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? (just a thought) Message-ID: <199708232310.TAA21255@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Gary Somai > Subject: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? (just a thought) > Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 11:12 AM > > Outwardly there are many antichrists, whereas inwardly there is only one > beast on which an AC can ride, and this is not about the humble ass that > Jesus rode on, but the fiery dragon that the AC rides on. > Are we having fun yet? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 18:23:50 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky Message-ID: <199708232320.TAA29392@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky > Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 1:49 PM > > In a message dated 97-08-23 07:09:14 EDT, you write: > > >Hey, i just was remembering...someone said in a late magazine of > >theos-world, that they were making a movie on Theosophy and HPB, i hope > >it releases soon, and i really hope it to be a BLOCKBUSTER!! > >Yeeahhh!! > >No better than the communication media to transmit the lifework, the > >feeling and dreams of Blavatsky and pepole related.. > >Estrella > > The only problem is that there hasn't been anyone in hollywood BIG enough to > play her since Kate Smith passed on to the Great Lunch Counter in the sky. > Considering what hollywood does to people though, the thought of a movie > about HPB should probably fill us with fear and trembling because it will be > very hard not to have it funny in all the wrong places (with the masters as > intentional comic relief). You mean the Masters AREN'T intentional comic relief? How about Leslie Neilson as DK? Joe Pesci as Morya? Rick Moranis as the Planetary Logo? Bill Murray as the Count Germain? Rodney Dangerfield as Master Jesus? Dan Ackroyd as the Mahachohan? Achkryod as Mahachohan: "What do think dis planet is? Your personal playground?" A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 19:59:40 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: The NFC Message-ID: <199708240005.UAA20112@NetGSI.com> >I visited your web page and found the care, comfort, and concern toward the >cats admirable. However, your diligence in breeding these animals does not >alleviate the main problem breeders contribute to - the overpopulation of >animals and the emphasis on animals as commodities. For every cat you breed >- and one does wonder how the "breedee" feels about this - and sell, there >is one less home available for a "regular run-of-the-mill" animal who finds >itself in a shelter, city pound, or homeless. Statistically its not the reputable breeders who are the problem with overpopulation, but rather friendly neighbors who breed Fifi and Spot to "see what will happen." You will find very very few pure bred cats at your city pound, and (I hope) no NFCs. >Manufacturing cats (genetically altering) is certainly risky for the animal >as it is the one who suffers physically and mentally for any "mistakes" >whereas the human suffers a setback to the wallet. A fair trade-off? There >is also the well-known risk of lowering an animal's immune system the more >"purebred" the animal becomes. From a "big picture" point of view - is >making a cat hypoallergenic for those who are allergic to cats worth it? I don't know where you got this idea, but the hypoallergenic quality of the NFC is natural, and not manmade. I wouldn't know how to do generic engineering if I wanted to. >Selling animals for $400 to $1200 (as you do) caters to a select group of >people - and creates a "hierarchy" of animals. Why get a Dodge if you can >afford a Ferrari? Unfortunately, this myth is human created - and again, it >is the animals that suffer. And those who purchase animals from breeders >are half the problem - for there would be no breeders if people weren't >willing to shell out money. It costs us $400 to raise an NFC to 12 weeks. So, I do have to charge at least $400 just to break even. Yes, there is a hierarchy of animals, some costing more than others. This is true for most things. We sell $800-or-more cats to those people with money who want something special that they can show off. But, on the other hand, at least these people have the money to maintain the cat properly once they get it home. >Your web page said you sometimes involve the cats in Assisted Living >programs - that is very worthwhile - but there is an animal sitting alone in >a city pound who would be thrilled and more than able to do the same. Most of these do not make good animals for these programs. They have to pass a rigid test to qualify. Only 15% or less of our cats qualify, and my wife Betty is an animal trainer and a tester for our local Pets on Wheels. >We are the guardians of this planet and its inhabitants - the manufacture, >breeding, and selling of companion animals doesn't sound like the road to >travel on the way to Compassion. This is pure opinion. I respect yours, and would expect to see you NOT breeding animals. I personally have seen the joy that good cats can bring to lonely people and feel that I am doing a service. For example, there are customers who have sworn to me that their NFC is the only reason they have for going home each day. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 20:06:30 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: NFCs Message-ID: <199708240012.UAA20365@NetGSI.com> >I've heard that same description of the Siammese cat! >I own one that is mixed breed... Well, perhaps I should say _one of_ the smartest breeds? Actually, there is a well known feline IQ test, written by Michael Fox (not the actor, but the famous animal behavioralist). My wife Betty did her Ph.D. dissertation on the NFCs. This included, among many things, giving over 100 of them Fox's IQ test. All tested at the genius level. Jerry S, Member, TI and for those interested, no, I am not joking here. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 19:57:13 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: The NFC Message-ID: <199708240057.UAA19817@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: The NFC > Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 5:10 PM > > In this particular case, Norwegian Forest Cats have a number of > advantages over common cats. Not the least of these is that they are > highly hypoallergenic; people who otherwise would not be able to have a > cat at all can have Norwegian Forest Cats. Of course, they DO eat > meat... > I just found a small gray rodent outside my door the other day. An offering to the household gods. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 20:06:20 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: NFCs Message-ID: <199708240102.VAA23427@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Jerry Schueler > Subject: Re: NFCs > Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 7:13 PM > > >I've heard that same description of the Siammese cat! > >I own one that is mixed breed... > > Well, perhaps I should say _one of_ the smartest breeds? > > Actually, there is a well known feline IQ test, written by > Michael Fox (not the actor, but the famous animal > behavioralist). My wife Betty did her Ph.D. dissertation > on the NFCs. This included, among many things, giving > over 100 of them Fox's IQ test. All tested at the genius > level. > > and for those interested, no, I am not joking here. And mine would probably test at the "nervous" level. BTW, I completely agree with your post on breeding. There are too many people (and I've known some personally) that acquire kittens and puppies, then never take the time or money to neuter them. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 20:40:06 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: The NFC - few comments Message-ID: <199708240240.UAA04947@mailmx.micron.net> Jerry, a few additional comments if I may: >Statistically its not the reputable breeders who are the problem with >overpopulation, but rather friendly neighbors who breed Fifi and Spot >to "see what will happen." You will find very very few pure bred cats >at your city pound, and (I hope) no NFCs. I agree that the main cause of overpopulation is the human neglect of spaying or neutering animals - however, professional breeders do add to the problem. I work at a "city pound" here in Idaho and in five years we have had two NFC's at different times who were abandoned. Both were adopted. Later, though, one of the individuals who had adopted one of the NFC's brought in his other two cats because he had just found out how "valuable" his new cat was and he worried that the NFC would be injured during play or a feline fight. We were unable to find homes for these other two cats and we were forced to kill them. People bringing in their animals when they have acquired a "more valuable" pet happens to us about three or four times a year. May not seem like much to some. . . The Humane Society of the United States and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals both agree that the practice of professional breeding contributes to the exploitation and overpopulation of animals. >I don't know where you got this idea, but the hypoallergenic quality >of the NFC is natural, and not manmade. I wouldn't know how to do >generic engineering if I wanted to. I was told that sometimes it is necessary to carefully "in-breed" NFC's to keep the line 'pure.' If I am wrong here, I apologize. >It costs us $400 to raise an NFC to 12 weeks. So, I do have to >charge at least $400 just to break even. Yes, there is a hierarchy >of animals, some costing more than others. This is true for most >things. Cats are not things. >We sell $800-or-more cats to those people with money >who want something special that they can show off. But, on the >other hand, at least these people have the money to maintain the >cat properly once they get it home. An animal needs love, also. What will happen to the cat if it is injured or something since these people only want it for show? Again, we need to quit treating animals as things. >Most of these do not make good animals for these programs. They >have to pass a rigid test to qualify. Only 15% or less of our cats >qualify, and my wife Betty is an animal trainer and a tester for our local >Pets on Wheels. Well, since MOST shelter animals won't do and MOST of the NFC's won't do - doesn't that make all varieties of animals equal when it comes to being trained for the Assisted Living program? >This is pure opinion. I respect yours, and would expect to see you >NOT breeding animals. I personally have seen the joy that good >cats can bring to lonely people and feel that I am doing a service. >For example, there are customers who have sworn to me that >their NFC is the only reason they have for going home each day. I more than agree that there is a powerful human/animal bond - I am the author of a book coming out in November which addresses just that issue. I am thrilled that most of your animals are so dearly loved - that's what it's all about. And, along with those who share their lives with NFC's, there are those who live only for their animals they obtained at a shelter. My whole point is simply that many breeders and those who purchase from breeders (including those who buy from pet stores) are often unaware or in denial of how much impact their decision can have in the lives of many sentient beings. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 23:10:21 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Is Theosophy a Religion? Message-ID: <33FFA61D.3D5B@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > As long as you're talking to me, I took a look at your new web page. I > > will obtain Ed Abdill's (rector of St. Michael's in New York, and > > President of the New York Lodge) email address, so that you can add it > > to your list. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > GOODIE! He's at mabdill@soho.ios.com (actually, his wife's account). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 23:23:41 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The NFC Message-ID: <33FFA93D.62CB@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > I just found a small gray rodent outside my door > the other day. An offering to the household gods. According to animal psychologists, it is the greatest gift a cat can give you. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 97 11:19:12 PDT From: "Mika Perala" Subject: Re: Bias Message-ID: > > ---------- > > From: ramadoss@eden.com > > Subject: Re: Bias etc. > > Date: Thursday, August 21, 1997 9:54 PM > > > > At 04:37 PM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >M K Ramadoss wrote: > > >> What is going on is nothing new. It has happened before. For example, the > > >> well known book by Ernest Wood -- Is this Theosophy.... which was > published > > >> in 1936, I did not get to find out about the book until a couple of years > > >> ago. I had been to many TS Lodge Libraries -- some of them had books even > > >> Adyar Library did not have -- and none of them had the book. I don't know > if > > >> you have seen the book. > > > > > > The New York Lodge Library has it. But I can't see why any Lodge would > > >purposely not carry it. > > > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > > Good for the NYL. I don't know what other lodges have a copy. > > > > mkr > We have one copy (in english) in our HQ library in Helsinki, Finland. I`m recommending it to TS:rs frequently. Mika From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 02:10:47 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? Message-ID: <33FE7EE6.6DC5@dmv.com> Gary Somai wrote: > Subject: (just a thought) > > Outwardly there are many antichrists, whereas inwardly there is only one > beast on which an AC can ride, and this is not about the humble ass that > Jesus rode on, but the fiery dragon that the AC rides on. > > Do not make judgements of others, even if they should judge you, for it is > this comparitive understanding that serves the nature of the beast. Our > measurable knowledge is symbolic of Adam and Eve eating the fruit from the > Tree of Knowledge, which has bound them or clothed them with a finite > existence, (i.e. to measure, calculate & fix comparitive material conditions > in order to finitely understand the world and universe around them and judge > accordingly). Judgement and understanding are not the same. I can understand when I or anyone else has transgressed, but that does not mean that I am "judging" right or wrong it simply means that I understand the difference. Whether we like it of not we are stuck with our faculty of understanding, the real need is for wisdom; the understanding of ultimate meaning. When Jesus said judge not lest you yourself be judged, the meaning was that we should not condemn others for their transgressions because having the power of true justice is a divine attribute and not a human one. > > > Open your spiritual eyes and the fear will be taken from you. The finite > boundary of your external senses is the unavoidable consequence of light and > matter (Lucifer) falling away from the incorporeal truth into the bottomless > pit, (space), from the dawn of time, and this will continue so into > eternity, until mankind finally conquers relative concepts and eats the > fruit from the Tree of Life. Every person has the potential of using his/her > free will, to discover and receive wisdom (the infinite, immeasurable and > unconditional Truth, or divine knowledge), as against the pain that the > bound-up and seperated ego inflicts onto itself. I hope you are not imping that Lucifer is just a metaphor. He is an angel of light, and I have seen this beautiful creature. When I was a child some of my playmates were arguing about the bottomless pit, and on that occasion I asked G-d if there was such a thing. He answered me cryptically saying that "It will become known as the black hole". So for me black holes are bottomless pits. He gave me this answer during the fifties when black holes were not common knowledge. > > If you want to defeat the beast within yourself, then you must fight the > beast with the sword of Truth. Do not fight from bottom to top, and left to > right, for this is man's devouring attempt to grasp the Truth, using finite > knowledge. First you must find a way to open the door to Truth, then make > the ultimate sacrifice, (not bodily sacrifices, for that is the worst type > of measurable evil taught by the word of Satan). Hope is a star which shall > lead you to wisdom, so that you then have the means to fight the beast from > the Top to the bottom, and from right to left, for this is where you shall > receive divine revelation. > All truths that we can communicate are finite. We can actually utter things which are absolutely true, but most such things are ulimately simple and have very little application. The common delusion is that if we are told the absolute truth we suddenly become absolutely wise; this is pure nonsense. Ultimate wisdom again must be a divine attribute; what else could it be? Each one of us is like a flute player in the great symphony working hard to get his part right. We should aspire to experience the higher reality, to have visions of the future and to see the nature of things, but our limited abilities are really a true part of the soul, without our limits we would no longer be ourselves and our personal histories would be meaningless. Enjoy the music.... Vincent > -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:47:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky Message-ID: <970824124731_671857851@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-23 19:21:04 EDT, you write: >You mean the Masters AREN'T intentional comic relief? How about Leslie >Neilson as DK? Joe Pesci as Morya? Rick Moranis as the Planetary Logo? >Bill Murray as the Count Germain? Rodney Dangerfield as Master Jesus? >Dan Ackroyd as the Mahachohan? > >Achkryod as Mahachohan: "What do think dis planet is? Your personal >playground?" > >A. Safron Sounds like perfect casting to me. But where are they going to find a star fat--er--big enough to play HPB? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 01:47:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? Does Chuck Really Exist? Message-ID: In message <199708232310.TAA21255@mcfeely.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes > >---------- >> From: Gary Somai >> Subject: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? (just a thought) >> Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 11:12 AM >> >> Outwardly there are many antichrists, whereas inwardly there is only one >> beast on which an AC can ride, and this is not about the humble ass that >> Jesus rode on, but the fiery dragon that the AC rides on. >> >Are we having fun yet? > >A. Safron Maybe we could think of a not-so-humble ass or two? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 00:01:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky Message-ID: In message <970824124731_671857851@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Sounds like perfect casting to me. But where are they going to find a star >fat--er--big enough to play HPB? > >Chuck the Heretic Oh, a bit of padding here, some bad language there - you'll make it, Chuck. Hehehehe Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:57:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The NFC - few comments Message-ID: In message <199708240240.UAA04947@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes and responds >I work at a "city pound" here in Idaho and in five years we have had two >NFC's at different times who were abandoned. Both were adopted. Later, >though, one of the individuals who had adopted one of the NFC's brought in >his other two cats because he had just found out how "valuable" his new cat >was and he worried that the NFC would be injured during play or a feline >fight. We were unable to find homes for these other two cats and we were >forced to kill them. People bringing in their animals when they have >acquired a "more valuable" pet happens to us about three or four times a >year. May not seem like much to some. . . > >The Humane Society of the United States and People for the Ethical Treatment >of Animals both agree that the practice of professional breeding contributes >to the exploitation and overpopulation of animals. Here in England, the RSPCA (to which I belong) "... advocates that all animals should be acquired from the place where they were born or from and RSPCA animal centre (or other reputable rescue organisation)." > >>Only 15% or less of our cats >>qualify, and my wife Betty is an animal trainer and a tester for our >>local Pets on Wheels. > >Well, since MOST shelter animals won't do and MOST of the NFC's won't do - >doesn't that make all varieties of animals equal when it comes to being >trained for the Assisted Living program? "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." (After George Orwell, ~Animal Farm~). > >My whole point is simply that many breeders and those who purchase from >breeders (including those who buy from pet stores) are often unaware or in >denial of how much impact their decision can have in the lives of many >sentient beings. > RSPCA: "The display od animals in pet shops, pet supermarkets and garden centres can lead to impulse buying without proper regard for the responsibilities of animal ownership." Just a few personal comments. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 15:42:19 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Come out and play.... Message-ID: <33FF3D1A.5E22@dmv.com> Where are all those light hearted theosophists? All work and no play; you know what they say. Well, anyway, I get the posts in digest form and have wondered whether there always needs to be a certain number of posts in the digest for it to be sent, or if after a certain duration a small number of posts would automatically be sent just to get them out of the que so to speak. I hope that my odd remarks are not the reason for the current moratorium. Cheer up it's not as bad as all that. Patiently... Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:57:59 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky Message-ID: <199708250110.VAA01732@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky > Date: Sunday, August 24, 1997 11:48 AM > > In a message dated 97-08-23 19:21:04 EDT, you write: > > >You mean the Masters AREN'T intentional comic relief? How about Leslie > >Neilson as DK? Joe Pesci as Morya? Rick Moranis as the Planetary Logo? > >Bill Murray as the Count Germain? Rodney Dangerfield as Master Jesus? > >Dan Ackroyd as the Mahachohan? > > > >Achkryod as Mahachohan: "What do think dis planet is? Your personal > >playground?" > > > >A. Safron > > Sounds like perfect casting to me. But where are they going to find a star > fat--er--big enough to play HPB? Well, that's true. Maybe they'd have to chub her up a bit or except a thinner HPB, but how about Rosie O'Donnell? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:11:30 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: The NFC - few comments Message-ID: <199708250110.VAA01787@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Re: The NFC - few comments > Date: Sunday, August 24, 1997 6:24 PM > > RSPCA: "The display od animals in pet shops, pet supermarkets and garden > centres can lead to impulse buying without proper regard for the > responsibilities of animal ownership." > That's how I got my Fang, tortoiseshell cat. I went to a garden shop for a bird bath and came home with her. She's 14 now and feisty as ever. Loves to play with the laundry. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:12:41 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? Does Chuck Really Exist? Message-ID: <199708250110.VAA01812@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? Does Chuck Really Exist? > Date: Sunday, August 24, 1997 5:44 PM > > In message <199708232310.TAA21255@mcfeely.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" > writes > >---------- > >> From: Gary Somai > >> Subject: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? (just a thought) > >> Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 11:12 AM > >> > >> Outwardly there are many antichrists, whereas inwardly there is only one > >> beast on which an AC can ride, and this is not about the humble ass that > >> Jesus rode on, but the fiery dragon that the AC rides on. > >> > >Are we having fun yet? > > > >A. Safron > > Maybe we could think of a not-so-humble ass or two? > Oh, I can! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 20:49:02 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Come out and play.... Message-ID: <199708250249.UAA26594@mailmx.micron.net> Vincent wrote: >Where are all those light hearted theosophists? All work and no play; >you know what they say. Uh. . .callin' us dull, chump? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:57:50 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Inspirational Msgs Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970825035750.00758928@mail.eden.com> Here is something I received today. Seems to be a good idea to me. mkr ================== >Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:28:51 >From: INSPIRE-owner@cybrlink.com >Subject: Announcing INSPIRE Maillist Start your day with a breathe of fresh air! Receive spiritual messages directly to your mailbox that will get you thinking, keep your adrenaline flowing, and heighten your hunger for the Divine. Delivered at least 5 times each week, INSPIRE is a blend of original and ancient scriptural missives that are designed to keep your awareness on the bigger picture and your eyes on the prize. A sample post of the day might be: "The Universe had a beginning Called the Mother of All Things Once you have found the Mother You can know her children." Lao Tzu To subscribe, send a message to INSPIRE-request@cybrlink.com with body text reading: subscribe INSPIRE. Thank you. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 23:08:13 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Come out and play.... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970825040813.00d82130@mail.eden.com> You can get msgs as they get posted. The default is digest form. To set it to non digest form, just send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with the following in the body of the msg: set theos-l mail ack That is all to it. mkr ================================ set mail ack' At 08:47 PM 8/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >Where are all those light hearted theosophists? All work and no play; >you know what they say. > >Well, anyway, I get the posts in digest form and have wondered whether >there always needs to be a certain number of posts in the digest for it >to be sent, or if after a certain duration a small number of posts would >automatically be sent just to get them out of the que so to speak. > >I hope that my odd remarks are not the reason for the current >moratorium. Cheer up it's not as bad as all that. > >Patiently... > >Vincent >-- > >vincent@dmv.com > >http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 05:38:22 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: THEOS-L partial digest 1208 Message-ID: <3401528E.62F7@dmv.com> > Subject: Re: Come out and play.... > > Vincent wrote: > > >Where are all those light hearted theosophists? All work and no play; > >you know what they say. > > Uh. . .callin' us dull, chump? > > Kym > Lighthearted! Chump? It is an ill wind that blows no good. Maybe if you lit a match it would clear the air. Hope you never pass that way again... Holding my breath... Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:55:16 +0100 From: business@eyedeal.u-net.com (Gary Somai) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1207 Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 02:10:47 -0400 >From: Vincent Beall >Subject: Re: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? >Message-ID: <33FE7EE6.6DC5@dmv.com> >> Subject: (just a thought) > >> >> Outwardly there are many antichrists, whereas inwardly there is only one >> beast on which an AC can ride, and this is not about the humble ass that >> Jesus rode on, but the fiery dragon that the AC rides on. >> >> Do not make judgements of others, even if they should judge you, for it is >> this comparitive understanding that serves the nature of the beast. Our >> measurable knowledge is symbolic of Adam and Eve eating the fruit from the >> Tree of Knowledge, which has bound them or clothed them with a finite >> existence, (i.e. to measure, calculate & fix comparitive material conditions >> in order to finitely understand the world and universe around them and judge >> accordingly). > >Judgement and understanding are not the same. I can understand when I or >anyone else has transgressed, but that does not mean that I am "judging" >right or wrong it simply means that I understand the difference. Whether >we like it of not we are stuck with our faculty of understanding, the >real need is for wisdom; the understanding of ultimate meaning. When >Jesus said judge not lest you yourself be judged, the meaning was that >we should not condemn others for their transgressions because having the >power of true justice is a divine attribute and not a human one. Surely understanding comes from judgement. Is this not that relative concept of logic we use to distinguish between the quality of A versus B? As far as judging "right" versus "wrong", i am led to conclude that this is the only way mankind, or an individual, can understand the things physically in the universe, in order to progress physically. Whereas toward the spiritual, this physical concept simply makes for it to become fuzzy. Yes there is the morality of right and wrong in the physical universe, but there is also the innocence and purity of the spiritual, which needs no judgement from earth, because it can only be Truth. > >> >> Open your spiritual eyes and the fear will be taken from you. The finite >> boundary of your external senses is the unavoidable consequence of light and >> matter (Lucifer) falling away from the incorporeal truth into the bottomless >> pit, (space), from the dawn of time, and this will continue so into >> eternity, until mankind finally conquers relative concepts and eats the >> fruit from the Tree of Life. Every person has the potential of using his/her >> free will, to discover and receive wisdom (the infinite, immeasurable and >> unconditional Truth, or divine knowledge), as against the pain that the >> bound-up and seperated ego inflicts onto itself. > >I hope you are not imping that Lucifer is just a metaphor. He is an >angel of light, and I have seen this beautiful creature. When I was a >child some of my playmates were arguing about the bottomless pit, and on >that occasion I asked G-d if there was such a thing. He answered me >cryptically saying that "It will become known as the black hole". So for >me black holes are bottomless pits. He gave me this answer during the >fifties when black holes were not common knowledge. Could not the origins of the physical universe come from a possible giant black/white hole, from which all material things came into being? The other black holes are then perhaps entrances for future mankind to conquer relative finite understanding, (i.e. time, distance, speed and direction no longer a conscious reality). What we might physically experience here, is the spiritual perception of an eternal Now, where there is no more the pain of memory, but instead the realization and relief that we are etenally one with each other. The questions we may need to ask ourselves are: 1) What is the opposite of a black hole? 2) Is spiritual light and physical light the same or the opposite of one another? 3) What does the image of God mean? Is it his physical likeness or mirror likeness? 4) Does God exist in the flesh, or in the spirit? 5) How do Physical and Spiritual realities compare? 6) From where did the physical universe originally come from? > >> >> If you want to defeat the beast within yourself, then you must fight the >> beast with the sword of Truth. Do not fight from bottom to top, and left to >> right, for this is man's devouring attempt to grasp the Truth, using finite >> knowledge. First you must find a way to open the door to Truth, then make >> the ultimate sacrifice, (not bodily sacrifices, for that is the worst type >> of measurable evil taught by the word of Satan). Hope is a star which shall >> lead you to wisdom, so that you then have the means to fight the beast from >> the Top to the bottom, and from right to left, for this is where you shall >> receive divine revelation. >> >All truths that we can communicate are finite. We can actually utter >things which are absolutely true, but most such things are ulimately >simple and have very little application. The common delusion is that if >we are told the absolute truth we suddenly become absolutely wise; this >is pure nonsense. Ultimate wisdom again must be a divine attribute; what >else could it be? Each one of us is like a flute player in the great >symphony working hard to get his part right. I have nothing to add to your above statement, except to suggest that there is no absolute Truth that can be communicated in a finite universe, although the most simple solutions are as close to the Truth as we will ever get. > >We should aspire to experience the higher reality, to have visions of >the future and to see the nature of things, but our limited abilities >are really a true part of the soul, without our limits we would no >longer be ourselves and our personal histories would be meaningless. > >Enjoy the music.... > >Vincent >> > Unconditional Love has no comparisons, (i.e. no pre-set conditions). History is the past, the future is yet to come, the present is now and how we feel inside at any given moment, without comparing it to relative concepts. To do so, can make us feel bitter, hatefull, or depending on what it is, powerfull and famous. Thank you Vincent for sharing your thoughts. Gary S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:51:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky Message-ID: <970825135001_-1570028135@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-24 21:50:38 EDT, you write: >> Sounds like perfect casting to me. But where are they going to find a star >> fat--er--big enough to play HPB? > >Well, that's true. Maybe they'd have to chub her up a bit or except a >thinner HPB, but how about Rosie O'Donnell? > >A. Safron Only if they hook her up to an air compressor and add lots of padding. But then comes the problem of what part of HPB's life would they film. Perhaps the famous gathering at the Eddy farm, where Abner Doubleday is teaching baseball to HPB and the Colonel as a seance is going on in the farmhouse. As one of the mediums (after 500 choruses of "In the Sweet, Bye and Bye") asks the spirits for a sign, HPB hits a home run and the baseball comes crashing through the window, disembraining the medium and scaring poor KH half to death while Thomas Edison proceeds to electrocute half the attendees. If anyone wonders what a film about the early TS would be like, let them watch Welcome to Wellville. Chuck the Heretic Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:54:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Inspirational Msgs Message-ID: <970825135111_608324505@emout14.mail.aol.com> Oh please no! I read my mail after lunch! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:54:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: About Hollywood and Blavatsky Message-ID: <970825135229_118013338@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-25 03:19:38 EDT, you write: >Oh, a bit of padding here, some bad language there - you'll make it, >Chuck. > >Hehehehe > >Alan Actually, I was going to let my white whiskers grow and try out for the Colonel. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:55:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Who is the Beast? Who is the AC? Does Chuck Really Exist? Message-ID: <970825135355_-32930021@emout12.mail.aol.com> Actually, I'm a figment of a nightmare. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:50:43 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: The masters would agree (Why not??) Message-ID: <3401F023.493A@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> You wrote: > >You mean the Masters AREN'T intentional comic relief? How about Leslie > >Neilson as DK? Joe Pesci as Morya? Rick Moranis as the Planetary Logo? > >Bill Murray as the Count Germain? Rodney Dangerfield as Master Jesus? > >Dan Ackroyd as the Mahachohan? > > > >Achkryod as Mahachohan: "What do think dis planet is? Your personal > >playground?" > > > >A. Safron > > Sounds like perfect casting to me. But where are they going to find a star > fat--er--big enough to play HPB? > > Chuck the Heretic > What about Rossane Barr?? Estrella P.S. God, Life is wonderfully FUNNY....Even the masters have to joke around sometimes... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 13:59:56 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: A Cat's life Message-ID: <3401F24C.4ACB@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Someone wrote: > >Statistically its not the reputable breeders who are the problem with > >overpopulation, but rather friendly neighbors who breed Fifi and Spot > >to "see what will happen." You will find very very few pure bred cats > >at your city pound, and (I hope) no NFCs. > > I agree that the main cause of overpopulation is the human neglect of > spaying or neutering animals - however, professional breeders do add to the > problem. > > I work at a "city pound" here in Idaho and in five years we have had two > NFC's at different times who were abandoned. Both were adopted. Later, > though, one of the individuals who had adopted one of the NFC's brought in > his other two cats because he had just found out how "valuable" his new cat > was and he worried that the NFC would be injured during play or a feline > fight. We were unable to find homes for these other two cats and we were > forced to kill them. People bringing in their animals when they have > acquired a "more valuable" pet happens to us about three or four times a > year. May not seem like much to some. . . > > The Humane Society of the United States and People for the Ethical Treatment > of Animals both agree that the practice of professional breeding contributes > to the exploitation and overpopulation of animals. > > >I don't know where you got this idea, but the hypoallergenic quality > >of the NFC is natural, and not manmade. I wouldn't know how to do > >generic engineering if I wanted to. > > I was told that sometimes it is necessary to carefully "in-breed" NFC's to > keep the line 'pure.' If I am wrong here, I apologize. > > >It costs us $400 to raise an NFC to 12 weeks. So, I do have to > >charge at least $400 just to break even. Yes, there is a hierarchy > >of animals, some costing more than others. This is true for most > >things. > > Cats are not things. > > >We sell $800-or-more cats to those people with money > >who want something special that they can show off. But, on the > >other hand, at least these people have the money to maintain the > >cat properly once they get it home. > > An animal needs love, also. What will happen to the cat if it is injured or > something since these people only want it for show? Again, we need to quit > treating animals as things. > > >Most of these do not make good animals for these programs. They > >have to pass a rigid test to qualify. Only 15% or less of our cats > >qualify, and my wife Betty is an animal trainer and a tester for our local > >Pets on Wheels. > > Well, since MOST shelter animals won't do and MOST of the NFC's won't do - > doesn't that make all varieties of animals equal when it comes to being > trained for the Assisted Living program? > > >This is pure opinion. I respect yours, and would expect to see you > >NOT breeding animals. I personally have seen the joy that good > >cats can bring to lonely people and feel that I am doing a service. > >For example, there are customers who have sworn to me that > >their NFC is the only reason they have for going home each day. > > I more than agree that there is a powerful human/animal bond - I am the > author of a book coming out in November which addresses just that issue. I > am thrilled that most of your animals are so dearly loved - that's what it's > all about. And, along with those who share their lives with NFC's, there > are those who live only for their animals they obtained at a shelter. > > My whole point is simply that many breeders and those who purchase from > breeders (including those who buy from pet stores) are often unaware or in > denial of how much impact their decision can have in the lives of many > sentient beings. > > Kym > I just saw your two pages ,Jerry. you seem as a very wise person. I don't trust too much Enochian magic and very much less Crowley writings, but well...if you think it helps you..just be careful. Your cats page is very beautiful filled with lovely cats. like that spongy cat in the first page. The prices are, very, very expensive. just thinking that i really need a car, and that in Mexico a car (VW) costs 800-1000 dollars, WOW!! it's a lot of money for a cat, but well.... All of the pure breed animals cost a lot. some carrie some diseases because the pure breeding makes the animal more propense to suffer certain sickness than the mixed common varieties. I really loved the kittens, ALL of them, specially the white-booted kitten. Hope to talk to you soon of a more sustancied theme. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:17:38 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: More on the movies Message-ID: <3401F672.3FC0@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > If anyone wonders what a film about the early TS would be like, let them > watch Welcome to Wellville. > > Chuck the Heretic I think you mean "the road to Wellville" That movie was great. i saw it here in Ensenada few months ago. they just put it on screen. imagine that! oh yes, but the junk movies like seagal's they put them rapidly... I also got the paperback edition of the book. i haven't finished yet. Yes, Chuck, THAT KIND OF SPIRIT could make a WONDERFUL MOVIE of Blavatsky. Maybe the Blavatsky movie makers can tell the same writer that writes for them the argument.... just dreaming. Estrella P.S. But wouldn't be fun?? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:50:30 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1207 Message-ID: <3401FE26.30E0@dmv.com> Gary Somai wrote: > >All truths that we can communicate are finite. We can actually utter > >things which are absolutely true, but most such things are ulimately > >simple and have very little application. The common delusion is that if > >we are told the absolute truth we suddenly become absolutely wise; this > >is pure nonsense. Ultimate wisdom again must be a divine attribute; what > >else could it be? Each one of us is like a flute player in the great > >symphony working hard to get his part right. > > I have nothing to add to your above statement, except to suggest that there > is no absolute Truth that can be communicated in a finite universe, although > the most simple solutions are as close to the Truth as we will ever get. > Here you are caught in a paradox; by your reasoning your statement is not absolutely true, so under some circumstances absolute truth is communicated in a finite universe. My take on truth is that its like the write verify function used in creating floppies. If the informational objects that are intended are actually transfered then you have verity; correspondence or Truth. The magnitude of intellegence is at a different level. We could send a literal description of an automobile, photographs or working plans etc., and all of them might be regarded as true depictions of the original, but then we could just send the automobile itself in order to communicate the truth about this hypothetical car. There is a great posibility that the car is a lemon in this finite universe, but the car as it represents itself is absolutely and truly itself. Absolute truth can be about finite things. The last word in this sentence is sentence. That is absolutely true, but doesn't mean much. So it goes; first your money then your clothes.... TTFN Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:05:58 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Fw: Virus Protection Message-ID: <199708260002.UAA29658@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bermingham Charles E > To: 'safron@concentric.net' > Subject: FW: Virus Protection > Date: Monday, August 25, 1997 1:41 PM > > Here's a "definitive" message regarding those virus reports we get from > time to tome. > > --Chuck > > >---------- > >From: Haile Thomas N > >Sent: Monday, August 25, 1997 12:59 PM > >To: Owens Robert; Salerno Lou; Johnson Craig; Clark Tamika J; Feign > >Cory; Bermingham Charles E; Richardson Dave > >Subject: FW: Virus Protection > > > >Bob Saigh sent me this after the "virus" email went out. I thought I > >would share it with you . > > > >---------- > >From: Saigh Robert > >Sent: Monday, August 25, 1997 5:26 PM > >To: Haile Thomas N > >Subject: RE: Virus Protection > > > >FYI, from a recent Don Crabb column ... > > > >E-mail suffers growing epidemic of bogus virus reports > > > >August 17, 1997 > > > >BY DON CRABB COMPUTER COLUMNIST > > > >Q. A friend just warned me about an e-mail virus that shows up as > >having a SUBJECT line of ``JOIN THE CREW.'' According to him, I should > >not open it, but should delete it immediately. He tells me that opening > >the message will lock my mouse and keyboard, then it will wipe out my > >hard drive. How can I protect myself from this virus? > > > >A. You can't, because it's a hoax. No such virus exists. It seems that > >the joy of sending idiotic e-mail about bogus viruses has now become a > >sport rivaling the creation of real viruses and other virtual pests. > >You can read about more such e-mail hoaxes at the Department of > >Energy's computer advisory site, > >www.ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html#join crew, which details hoaxes > >with names such as PKZ300, Irina, Good Times, Good Times Spoof, > >Deeyenda, Ghost, PenPal, Greetings!, Make Money Fast, NaughtyRobot, > >AOL4Free, as well as Join the Crew. You can also find information on > >Internet Chain Letters, another virtual nuisance, at > >www.ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACChainLetters.html. > > > >Chicago Sun-Times computer columnist Don Crabb writes Sunday, Tuesday, > >Thursday and Friday. He can be heard regularly on the Steve Dahl show > >from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. on WCKG-FM (105.9). He can be reached at: > >www.suntimes.com. > > > >---------- > >From: Haile Thomas N > >Sent: Monday, August 25, 1997 12:19 PM > >To: ***EVERYONE > >Cc: Feign Cory; valcom1 > >Subject: Virus Protection > > > >A message was sent this morning concerning the potential of disk damage > >from a computer virus hidden in a "pen pal" email . > >Our current virus protection would be able to protect us from this type > >of virus. But we also suspect that this message which was sent from an > >AOL user was sent out a few months ago as well . > >In any case if such a virus were to make it's way into our network we > >are confident that our current virus protection would eradicate the > >computer virus . > >I want to assure everyone that there is no threat to our security and > >would like to request that if you have concerns about a virus or if you > >receive a warning about a virus and would like to pass that information > >along to others please send that information to the help desk in the > >name of : > >Tamika Clark > >Cory Feign > >Charles Bermingham > >David Richardson > >or > >Thomas Haile > >One of us will be sure to receive your information and if there is a > >need to inform the rest of the ADA staff we will be happy to do so . > > > > Thank You > >Thomas N. Haile > >Network Operations Manager > >hailet@ada.org > >hailet@concentric.net > > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:45:32 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The NFC - few comments Message-ID: In message <199708250110.VAA01787@mcfeely.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >> RSPCA: "The display od animals in pet shops, pet supermarkets and garden >> centres can lead to impulse buying without proper regard for the >> responsibilities of animal ownership." >> >That's how I got my Fang, tortoiseshell cat. I went to a garden shop >for a bird bath and came home with her. She's 14 now and feisty >as ever. Loves to play with the laundry. Obviously Fang got lucky! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:00:49 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: THEOS-L partial digest 1208 Message-ID: <199708260100.TAA28637@mailmx.micron.net> Vincent wrote: > >Chump? It is an ill wind that blows no good. Maybe if you lit a match it >would clear the air. > >Hope you never pass that way again... > >Holding my breath... Uh. . .are you suggesting I am full of and flap flatulence, chump? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:04:34 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: The NFC - few comments Message-ID: <199708260104.TAA28740@mailmx.micron.net> A. Safron wrote: >>That's how I got my Fang, tortoiseshell cat. I went to a garden shop >>for a bird bath and came home with her. She's 14 now and feisty >>as ever. Loves to play with the laundry. Alan responded: >Obviously Fang got lucky! Indeed. How I so wish Ann's story was the rule instead of the exception. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 04:09:43 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: <34323904.187223451@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Vincent wrote: >Absolute truth can be about finite things. The last word in this >sentence is sentence. That is absolutely true, but doesn't mean much. This is like the liar's paradox, which says something like "this statement is a lie." The problem with statements such as these is that they have no definite referent. To which sentence are you referring? If the sentence in "the last word in this sentence is sentence" to which you are referring is "the last word in this sentence is sentence," then the sentence must be changed to read "the last word in the sentence "the last word in this sentence is sentence" is sentence. But then you have the same problem all over again, and, in an attempt to have a definite referent, you must add another "the last word in this sentence is sentence," only to have the same problem, infinitely, always having the same part of it being indeterminate. There is no such thing as a completely self-referential statement. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:05:54 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: THEOS-L partial digest 1208 Message-ID: <34020FD2.5200@dmv.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Vincent wrote: > > > > >Chump? It is an ill wind that blows no good. Maybe if you lit a match it > >would clear the air. > > > >Hope you never pass that way again... > > > >Holding my breath... > > Uh. . .are you suggesting I am full of and flap flatulence, chump? > > Kym Perhaps it's not as bad as that. Maybe it's just a dark enervating funk that's got you down, and your not combustible after all. If the light in you is darkness, how dark is it? Wait a minute, what's that I smell? Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:24:29 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: <3402142D.609A@dmv.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > > Vincent wrote: > > >Absolute truth can be about finite things. The last word in this > >sentence is sentence. That is absolutely true, but doesn't mean much. > > This is like the liar's paradox, which says something like "this > statement is a lie." The problem with statements such as these is > that they have no definite referent. To which sentence are you > referring? If the sentence in "the last word in this sentence is > sentence" to which you are referring is "the last word in this > sentence is sentence," then the sentence must be changed to read "the > last word in the sentence "the last word in this sentence is sentence" > is sentence. But then you have the same problem all over again, and, > in an attempt to have a definite referent, you must add another "the > last word in this sentence is sentence," only to have the same > problem, infinitely, always having the same part of it being > indeterminate. There is no such thing as a completely > self-referential statement. It is painfully obvious that you understood fully that the sentence referred to the last word in itself. I really don't understand why you pretend to be so confused. The sentence could be modified so it would read "The last word, here typed, in this sentence is sentence." It all goes to show that being shown the truth is not gauranteed to make you wise. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 02:10:06 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: <199708260810.CAA20746@mailmx.micron.net> Tom Robertson wrote: >> This is like the liar's paradox, which says something like "this >> statement is a lie." The problem with statements such as these is >> that they have no definite referent. To which sentence are you >> referring? If the sentence in "the last word in this sentence is >> sentence" to which you are referring is "the last word in this >> sentence is sentence," then the sentence must be changed to read "the >> last word in the sentence "the last word in this sentence is sentence" >> is sentence. But then you have the same problem all over again, and, >> in an attempt to have a definite referent, you must add another "the >> last word in this sentence is sentence," only to have the same >> problem, infinitely, always having the same part of it being >> indeterminate. There is no such thing as a completely >> self-referential statement. Vincent responded: >It is painfully obvious that you understood fully that the sentence >referred to the last word in itself. I really don't understand why you >pretend to be so confused. The sentence could be modified so it would >read "The last word, here typed, in this sentence is sentence." It all >goes to show that being shown the truth is not gauranteed to make you >wise. The desire to dash, shrieking, stark-naked down my dusty old street is almost overwhelming right now. Maybe I was involved in a ten-car pile-up on the way home tonight, croaked, and now. . .ta da. . .I discover there really is a hell. I feel so all alone. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 02:27:13 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: THEOS-L partial digest 1208 Message-ID: <199708260827.CAA20899@mailmx.micron.net> Vincent wrote: >Perhaps it's not as bad as that. Maybe it's just a dark enervating funk >that's got you down, and your not combustible after all. If the light in >you is darkness, how dark is it? Wait a minute, what's that I smell? "Sometimes we are inclined to class those who are once-and-a-half witted with the half-witted, because we appreciate only a third part of their wit." Henry David Thoreau From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:10:55 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: <34021F0F.734D@dmv.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > The desire to dash, shrieking, stark-naked down my dusty old street is > almost overwhelming right now. Maybe I was involved in a ten-car pile-up on > the way home tonight, croaked, and now. . .ta da. . .I discover there really > is a hell. > > I feel so all alone. > > Kym You have to break some eggs to make real mayonase. Maybe some well chosen words from Chuck would help. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:12:51 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: THEOS-L partial digest 1208 Message-ID: <34021F83.261@dmv.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Vincent wrote: > > >Perhaps it's not as bad as that. Maybe it's just a dark enervating funk > >that's got you down, and your not combustible after all. If the light in > >you is darkness, how dark is it? Wait a minute, what's that I smell? > > "Sometimes we are inclined to class those who are once-and-a-half witted > with the half-witted, because we appreciate only a third part of their wit." > > Henry David Thoreau Lovely.... Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:39:09 GMT From: dewberry@poboxes.com (Bee Brown) Subject: Re: Internet and TS Message-ID: <3401eac7.48101409@mail.iconz.co.nz> On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:56:00 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >At 08:23 PM 8/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >>A. Safron wrote: >> >>>BTW, I will respond to any poster on this except Bart. >> >>Although I can understand completely why you choose not to exchange with >>Bart, I must say that publically excommunicating someone on theos-l makes me >>jumpy. It seems the complete opposite of what this avenue (theos-l) is here >>for. It also raises the question whether this type of event qualifies as >>"group" business, or is something between individuals which should be left >>alone. Got me. >> >>And, oddly, the more Bart is "punished" the more I feel for him - he's >>becoming the one who is persecuted and with that impression comes sympathy, >>even though I know Bart dug his own hole - but don't we all? To be ignored >>hurts, and it hurts alot - which is why the silent treatment can be so >>powerful. >> >>One more observation: We can't argue for Wheaton to listen to us if we >>won't listen to each other. I read this little snippet in CWL Talks on the Path of Occultism vol 2 and thought it might be appropriate here. 'The efforts that many Theosophists are making imply a great strain; that is why there is sometimes so much disturbance in the TS, so much irritability and quarrelling. I have heard people say that other Societies have far less trouble of this kind. That is naturally the case. If you join a geographical or geologial or other similar society, you are simply joining a set of people who are working together to acquire more knowledge, generally of a particular kind. But in the TS many people are putting a great strain upontheir astral and mental bodies and that reacts upon their physical bodies. I think, therefore, that as we shall continue to deal with a set of sensitive and not yet perfect people, who are pressing forward more rapidly than nature in its normal course intended, the history of the Society will probably continue to record many disturbanes, though the time is bound to come for each oneof its members when he/she will acquire the "patience sweet that naught can ruffle"' Page 266 Seems we have an excuse for getting crabby :-) Bee >> >> >> >>Kym >> >I support 1000% what you have said. > >mkr > Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. Life is not a problem to be solved; it is a mystery to be lived. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 8:55:32 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Baltimore, Vince? Message-ID: <199708261255.IAA11183@leo.vsla.edu> One of my few unpleasant experiences in a TS meeting was in Baltimore with a guy named Vince. Since our new addition Vince mentioned that lodge, I'll tell the story: I'd just spoken on some numerological theme; might have been Seven in Isma`ili Esotericism, but I can't remember. What I do remember vividly is a guy named Vince who in a very querulous tone said "I'm sick and tired of people like you coming to the lodge and talking about things like this." I'd have been a whole lot more horrified by this had I not seen two or three dozen faces showing not only that they were aghast but that this kind of thing had been said before more than once by this guy. Boris Orczula who was chairing the meeting handled it very smoothly and we moved right along. Tell me it wasn't you, Vince. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:50:40 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Baltimore, Vince? Message-ID: <3402609F.900@dmv.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > One of my few unpleasant experiences in a TS meeting was in > Baltimore with a guy named Vince. Since our new addition Vince > mentioned that lodge, I'll tell the story: > > I'd just spoken on some numerological theme; might have been > Seven in Isma`ili Esotericism, but I can't remember. What I do > remember vividly is a guy named Vince who in a very querulous > tone said "I'm sick and tired of people like you coming to the > lodge and talking about things like this." I'd have been a > whole lot more horrified by this had I not seen two or three > dozen faces showing not only that they were aghast but that > this kind of thing had been said before more than once by this > guy. > > Boris Orczula who was chairing the meeting handled it very > smoothly and we moved right along. > > Tell me it wasn't you, Vince. It was definitely not me, and when did you have this unfortuante exchange? Boris has been lodge President more than once, and during the few years that I had attended the lodge the meetings were quite peaceful. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:07:31 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Baltimore, Vince? Message-ID: <3402E323.4A2B@eden.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > One of my few unpleasant experiences in a TS meeting was in > Baltimore with a guy named Vince. Since our new addition Vince > mentioned that lodge, I'll tell the story: > > I'd just spoken on some numerological theme; might have been > Seven in Isma`ili Esotericism, but I can't remember. What I do > remember vividly is a guy named Vince who in a very querulous > tone said "I'm sick and tired of people like you coming to the > lodge and talking about things like this." I'd have been a > whole lot more horrified by this had I not seen two or three > dozen faces showing not only that they were aghast but that > this kind of thing had been said before more than once by this > guy. > > Boris Orczula who was chairing the meeting handled it very > smoothly and we moved right along. > > Tell me it wasn't you, Vince. I have been to several lodges for during a long period of time and in none of them ever I have seen any one -- making any such comments to any speaker. We all do have a lot of different opinions about a alot of things, but being humane and considerate to all others is, I think makes a lot of sense. This is just my personal opinion. There are those who will disagree. So mote it be. YMDMV mkr............... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:19:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: More on the movies Message-ID: <970826131637_-301226558@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-25 19:45:15 EDT, you write: >Yes, Chuck, THAT KIND OF SPIRIT could make a WONDERFUL MOVIE of >Blavatsky. I haven't seen that book, so I don't know, but I find it difficult to believe that hollywood would make a movie about the early TS without dipping deep into the comedy barrel and making us all look like damned fools. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:23:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The masters would agree (Why not??) Message-ID: <970826131916_889152445@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-26 03:45:08 EDT, you write: >What about Rossane Barr?? > >Estrella > too skinny. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:56:55 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Logos Message-ID: <199708261756.KAA25880@palrel3.hp.com> > All truths that we can communicate are finite. We can actually utter > things which are absolutely true, but most such things are ulimately > simple and have very little application. The common delusion is that if > we are told the absolute truth we suddenly become absolutely wise; this > is pure nonsense. I haven't really followed this discussion closely, but will jump in here. The preceeding has been a little too profound for me. (In my time we didn't see profoundities shamelessly uttered in public) ... Great Teachers have a kind of "spirit" in Their words that gives them life. Though a too literal interpretation may get stuck in consciousness, the "spirit" stirs the unconscious. The seed thoughts within the unconscious when acted on produce realization. The exact same words of a sage could be repeated by someone without realization and they would be stale because such persons lack the Esse within the words. Part of the Esse comes from your intent and also practising what you preach. When someone said they found Yogananda's book inspiring, he said, "It has my vibrations in it." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 14:10:26 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Logos Message-ID: <34031C12.4981@dmv.com> Titus Roth wrote: > > > All truths that we can communicate are finite. We can actually utter > > things which are absolutely true, but most such things are ulimately > > simple and have very little application. The common delusion is that if > > we are told the absolute truth we suddenly become absolutely wise; this > > is pure nonsense. > > I haven't really followed this discussion closely, but will jump in here. The > preceeding has been a little too profound for me. (In my time we didn't see > profoundities shamelessly uttered in public) ... > > Great Teachers have a kind of "spirit" in Their words that gives them life. > Though a too literal interpretation may get stuck in consciousness, the > "spirit" stirs the unconscious. The seed thoughts within the unconscious > when acted on produce realization. > > The exact same words of a sage could be repeated by someone without > realization and they would be stale because such persons lack the Esse within > the words. Part of the Esse comes from your intent and also practising what > you preach. > > When someone said they found Yogananda's book inspiring, he said, "It has > my vibrations in it." Very soothing words indeed, you seem to have good "vibrations", if my feeling is correct. Discipline of course is the key to magnifing ones spiritual presence, although, there is wide variation of vocation, and even the "evil" have spiritual effect. Unlike some I don't see an analogy between "good and evil" and "spirit and matter". Only some can recognize profundity, please pardon my unabashed remarks. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:02:28 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: More on Cats Message-ID: <199708262340.TAA03450@NetGSI.com> >The Humane Society of the United States and People for the Ethical >Treatment of Animals both agree that the practice of professional >breeding contributes to the exploitation and overpopulation of animals. Not when all cats are altered before they are sold. We alter ALL kittens for sale, at 12 weeks. This is very much in line with the Humane Society but most vets are opposed to it (because it costs them money) and it is hard to find a good vet who will do it. We currently have many many breeders disliking us because of our strong stand on this--we sell at rock-bottom prices and with altering included, and still make a small profit. We also did this years ago with Shelties and had other Sheltie breeders against us. Oh well. Please don't use PETA as a reference. Those folks are against ALL pets period and are a radical group as far as I am concerned. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:09:58 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: More on Cats Message-ID: <199708262340.TAA03455@NetGSI.com> > was told that sometimes it is necessary to carefully "in-breed" NFC's to >keep the line 'pure.' If I am wrong here, I apologize. I am not a geneticist, but my wife tells me that "some" inbreeding is always necessary, for any animal, in order to keep "type." But outcrossing with new blood is also necessary or all kinds of inbreeding problems develop--you double up on problems with each generation. There is nothing special here with NFCs. Another interesting aspect that my wife discovered--animals have to be bred outdoors in a simulated "natural" habitat of some kind. Breeding them indoors causes a lot of problems (loss of size and intelligence are just two results). This situation was discovered by Zoos with wild animals some years ago. The nice pretty outdoor exhibits at your local Zoo were not made just because they are pretty to look at. The anmials are healthier and breed better. We do the same with our cats, and this enrages other breeders because they don't have the facilities to do it themselves (although a few are now doing this too). Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:55:17 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Gary's Six Questions Message-ID: <199708270046.UAA06211@NetGSI.com> >The questions we may need to ask ourselves are: > >1) What is the opposite of a black hole? >2) Is spiritual light and physical light the same or the opposite of one >another? >3) What does the image of God mean? Is it his physical likeness or mirror >likeness? >4) Does God exist in the flesh, or in the spirit? >5) How do Physical and Spiritual realities compare? >6) From where did the physical universe originally come from? My Answers: (1) A white hole. (2) Two sides of the same thing. (3) God has no "physical likeness," but of course the answer here depends on how you define "God." In my own definition, "image" equates to "expression." (4) If we define God as All in All, then he exists everywhere. (5) As above so below. (6) It was always here in some form, and always will be, because God must always be expressed. Just a few quick thoughts. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:57:11 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Judging Message-ID: <199708270046.UAA06214@NetGSI.com> >Surely understanding comes from judgement. Is this not that relative >concept of logic we use to distinguish between the quality of A versus >B? Gary, as I am sure you know, it is not your judgement between A and B that is the problem, but rather when you conclude that A is superior to B (or vice versa) that the real problem begins (e.g., predjudice, egotism, etc.). >As far as judging "right" versus "wrong", i am led to conclude that this >is the only way mankind, or an individual, can understand the things >physically in the universe, in order to progress physically. Whereas >toward the spiritual, this physical concept simply makes for it to >become fuzzy. As you correctly point out, judging right and wrong is perfectly acceptable when we are oriented towards matter (on the Arc of Descent) --but we are supposed to be currently on the Arc of Ascent and such silly things as right and wrong no longer apply. I don't understand your second sentence in the above quote. If you mean that the dividing line between right and wrong becomes fuzzy, then I agree with you. Christians have a long history of judging others, and look at the pain this has caused the world. I would hope that theosophists have already learned this lesson. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:00:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: In message <199708260810.CAA20746@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >I feel so all alone. > >Kym Greetings to Kym from the entire population of Cornwall, UK! Feeling better? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 20:52:54 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Blavatksky's Baboon Message-ID: <199708270150.VAA05490@cliff.concentric.net> To all you BB book lover: I went downtown today to a big, fat, hug bookstore on Michigan Ave. They even have a cafe. But no book. First they told me it was on the shelf. Wasn't there. The next option was to order from one of their other stores in 10 days (ha-ha) or from the publisher in 6 weeks. I've decided to look elsewhere. Perhaps, even Quest would order it. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:30:34 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Where's our 3/2 wit? Message-ID: <34038339.632D@dmv.com> Kym, I thought you were only giving me a piece of your mind, and I'm curious about the two halves of your witty mind that have thus far not been appreciated. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:59:37 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Where's our 3/2 wit? Message-ID: <3403B439.49DC344C@micron.net> A hominiform named Vincent penned: > Kym, I thought you were only giving me a piece of your mind, and I'm > curious about the two halves of your witty mind that have thus far not > > been appreciated. "[She's] winding up the watch of [her] wit. By and by it will strike." Shakespeare From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:21:26 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: <3403B956.1A14AE6E@micron.net> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > kymsmith@micron.net writes > >I feel so all alone. > > Greetings to Kym from the entire population of Cornwall, UK! And an American "How's it hangin'?" greeting to all of you! > Feeling better? It depends. . .was a human involved in any of this? > Alan :-) Hmm. . .that name does sound familiar. . .and I'm sure I've seen that face somewhere. K. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:49:38 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Judging Message-ID: <3406af82.283059118@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> >>Surely understanding comes from judgement. Is this not that relative >>concept of logic we use to distinguish between the quality of A versus >>B? Jerry wrote: >Gary, as I am sure you know, it is not your judgement between >A and B that is the problem, but rather when you conclude that A >is superior to B (or vice versa) that the real problem begins >(e.g., predjudice, egotism, etc.). I don't understand the problem with the making of comparisons. All decisions are based on the evaluation of alternatives. It is impossible to disapprove of the making of comparisons without making one. Or are you saying that the potential of all human beings is identical? >Christians have a long history of judging others, and look at the >pain this has caused the world. I would hope that theosophists have >already learned this lesson. Behavior must be judged, in order to choose the better over the worse. When Jesus said not to judge, he was disapproving of the holding of grudges, not of the evaluation of behavior, which he did often, according to the Bible. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 20:56:57 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: More on Cats Message-ID: <199708271250.IAA02144@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Jerry Schueler > Subject: More on Cats > Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 6:41 PM > > Please don't use PETA as a reference. Those folks are against ALL > pets period and are a radical group as far as I am concerned. > I once joined PETA. Then they sent me a HUGE BOOK that sounded like a radical manifesto that I couldn't agree with. I wrote them and cancelled my membership. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:02:21 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: The masters would agree (Why not??) Message-ID: <199708271250.IAA02155@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: The masters would agree (Why not??) > Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 12:23 PM > > In a message dated 97-08-26 03:45:08 EDT, you write: > > >What about Rossane Barr?? > > > >Estrella > > > too skinny. > > Chuck the Heretic Well, Chuck, that only leaves one possibility. The Good Year Blimp. A. SAfron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:01:08 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: More on the movies Message-ID: <199708271250.IAA02151@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: More on the movies > Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 12:19 PM > > In a message dated 97-08-25 19:45:15 EDT, you write: > > >Yes, Chuck, THAT KIND OF SPIRIT could make a WONDERFUL MOVIE of > >Blavatsky. > > I haven't seen that book, so I don't know, but I find it difficult to believe > that hollywood would make a movie about the early TS without dipping deep > into the comedy barrel and making us all look like damned fools. > Can't help but say this. Gary Marshall took that fabulous book by Ann Rice, "Exit to Eden" and turned it into Gilligan's Island without clothes. It had a lot of nudity and sex and was the most disgusting movie I'd ever seen. Not because of the nudity and sex (which I usually like), but the way they did it. Even the actors, in shame, refuse to talk about that piece of trash. Beware of Hollywood. They have their own vision and its in your pocketbook. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:10:20 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: <199708271250.IAA02163@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements > Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 8:13 PM > > In message <199708260810.CAA20746@mailmx.micron.net>, > kymsmith@micron.net writes > >I feel so all alone. > > > > > >Kym > > Greetings to Kym from the entire population of Cornwall, UK! > > Feeling better? > > Alan :-) > --------- Greetings from the entire population of Chicago, which is around 3 million and includes all kinds of people. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 9:11:37 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Baltimore experience Message-ID: <199708271311.JAA27667@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Vincent, Glad it wasn't you. I've been talking to the lodge at least once a year from 1990 onwards. Would guess that this occurred in 1993 or 94, but am not sure. This was the only instance of such nastiness I ever saw in any TS setting. The culprit was actually a ULT member and not a lodge member if I recall correctly, and hasn't been seen in a while. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 04:25:41 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Baltimore experience Message-ID: <3403E485.2CE2@dmv.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > Dear Vincent, > > Glad it wasn't you. I've been talking to the lodge at least > once a year from 1990 onwards. Would guess that this occurred > in 1993 or 94, but am not sure. > > This was the only instance of such nastiness I ever saw in any > TS setting. The culprit was actually a ULT member and not a > lodge member if I recall correctly, and hasn't been seen in > a while. > > Cheers, > Paul Paul, I hope you can find it within yourself to forgive this poor derilict individual. But, sadly I must confess that it was me that was responsible for the outburst, and surely you were not the target of my exasperation which at that unfortunate moment had reached the level of insanity. However, I can understand that you had every reason to be shocked by my performance. What I was so terribly upset about, and vented on everyone in the meeting, was that "duality" had become for me nightmarish in the way that the masses of the west and occultists in particular take duality as completely ubiquitous and responsible for every "good" thing which is the complete antithesis of the right way which is to transcend duality. You may not recall, and this by no means excuses my behavior, but before you spoke several speakers were lauding the "great and powerful" arttributes of duality, which really triggered my revolt against the utter simple mindedness of trying to hide all power, wisdom, and beauty in a coin toss. Well, I hope you have never made such a fool of yourself as I did that night, believe me I am still truly embarrassed. Sincerely, Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 18:26:17 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Chains, Compassion, Correspondences and the Comfort of Theosophy Message-ID: >For your information, I found this on the net under theosophy on the Spirit >Web: > >These vast periods of evolution have great beings of enormous stature looking >after them. Evolution isn't just a series of random mutations, but proceeds in >a coordinated Plan. Sub-races usually have a spiritual Master incarnate among >them to help guide or create a religion. Each Root-Race has a great guide >called a Manu who among other things incarnates to help set the physical type >of each race. Most of these Manus and Masters are known in our history. An >entire World-Period of its seven Root-Races has a great being called the Lord >of the World looking after it. Moving up the hierarchy, an entire Round is >coordinated by a Round Manu, and an entire Chain of seven globes is >coordinated by several Chain Manus. >Our entire series of seven Chains forms a Scheme of evolution. The one we are >in now we call the Earth or Terrene Scheme. There are other Schemes in our >solar system which the other physical planets other than Earth, Mercury, and >Mars, and many etheric planets belong to. Our solar system is composed of ten >Schemes total. Each Scheme goes through seven Chains, and is presently in a >particular one of them with its seven globes. Of the ten Schemes, only seven >have any physical planets. The seven principal Schemes or planets within them >form the "Seven Sacred Planets" and the "Seven Rays" of our solar system. Here >is a brief description of each Scheme, which is generally named after its >densest planet in its current Chain: >(1) The Vulcan Scheme: Presently in its third Chain, it has one physical globe >(the planet Vulcan inside Mercury's orbit), two astral, two lower mental, and >two Causal globes. (2) The Venus Scheme: Presently in its fifth Chain, it also >has one physical (Venus itself), two astral, two mental, and two Causal >globes. (3) The Earth Scheme: This is our Scheme presently in its fourth >Chain, with three physical (Mercury, Earth, and Mars), two astral, and two >mental globes. (4), (5), and (6) The Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus Schemes: All >three of these Schemes are in their third Chain, and each of them have one >physical, two astral, two lower mental, and two Causal globes. (7) The Neptune >Scheme: This Scheme is in its fourth Chain, and like ours has three physical, >two astral, and two . . . > >Keith: We haven't discussed the schemes laid out in great detail by HPB in >the SD which were an attempt to "correct" ESOTERIC BUDHISM by Sinnett. > >I think with the current interest of many in astrology, it might be >interesting to deleve into these deep and promising waters. Alice Bailey >developed her own system of Esoteric Astrology which is not directly related >to HPB's schemes of evolution, as far as I can tell. > >The planets exist on an etheric, astral, intellecutal (noospheric), buddhic, >and atmic levels just as we do in our physcial bodies. The solar system and >beyond echo this scheme of interpenentrating bodies, evolving at different >planes and for different purposes. > >Life waves move from planet to planet in our solar system and if we may >speculate like the science fiction writers from galaxy to galaxy. > >Has anyone studied this in detail? Does anyone want to study it on-line? > >Namaste >Keith Price > Thanks for the post. This is one of the best summary I have seen. While for many all of it at this stage of our individual evolution (except for any real Adepts or initiates on this list), for the time being, they are one of the best hypotheses to work with until a better understanding takes place. Peace MKR Keith: I know that many have or used to spend a lot of time tabulating correspondences such as Mercury is the mind, as the planet and our higher mental nature and is assoicated with Wednesday, the metal tin (?) the color blue (?) the note C (?) and so on. I am putting question marks because I cannot find the place in the SECRET DOCTRINE where the various systems of correspondences are laid out in table form and debated by Blavatsky. On a larger scale, I think it may be interesting to note that all these things are EVOLVING and we cannot capture them as in a snapshot. In other words the solar system is a UNITY and group of 7 planetary bodies, planes etc each which have seven planes or schemes of evolution. As above, so below is the great hermetic maxim. Therefore we can claim that there are great evolutionary cycles in our personal reincarnation, the evolution of the human race, the evolution of the solar system as a BEING with a pulsing life, a system of interconnections as real as our circulatory or nervous system and as interdependent. Many have spent years, and perhaps lifetimes developing a system of correspondences that appear in such system as TAROT/Cabala whereby each card or number has an angel, a prinicple, a color, a sound, a smell, an herb, a planet, a rune, and on and on. Some like Alan Bain have suggested that there is no point to this, yet his KEYs TO THE KABALA seems to be just such an effort to make these efforts practical for personal evolution. Personal evolution puts one in contact with the Master that is currently overlooking (Avetiloskevara or Avatar) our current evolution and guiding and correcting it. The idea of the Universe as a body of subtle energy as well as gross representations such as planets and animal/human bodies is not a new one, but one that seems to underlie the reason for compassion for all Beings because the Universe itself is expressing compassion, by the very process of evolution large and small, inter-galactic and/or physical processes of the human. The comfort seems to be that we cannot ever grasp the details, but can choose to go with the right hand path of the plan of the Manu or Logos or teacher of the moment who can see into dimensions unavailable to the chela or student. The comfort of theosophy is that there are such large forces at work, that we are like a cell in the GREAT WORLD BODY OR SOUL. Some are white blood cells others are viruses, but we are all playing a part in cosmic drama that is much larger than we can imagine, but we can try. I specifically, wanted to bring this up because, I am going to give a talk about theosophy and astrology. Theosophy is not so much person centered as WORLD SOUL centered and we have corresponding dimensions in our seven bodies. I think some would claim that Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, and so on with the last great hope of the white brotherhood being Krishnamurti. We can all feel rumblings in the life wave in our astral bodies, collective and individual. This is why I think there is so little concensus as how theosophy can provide compassion and comfort in a way that is directed not by the past, but by the current wishes of the Manu. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:26:03 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: <199708271926.MAA16188@palrel3.hp.com> > > kymsmith@micron.net writes > > >I feel so all alone. > > Greetings to Kym from the entire population of Cornwall, UK! > Greetings from the entire population of Chicago, which is > around 3 million and includes all kinds of people. Gee, Kym. How does it feel with millions of people fawning over you? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:53:36 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Judging Message-ID: <199708271953.MAA18982@palrel3.hp.com> My interpretation of "Judge not that ye be not judged" is a little different than Tom's or Jerry's. Jerry says: > As you correctly point out, judging right and wrong is perfectly acceptable > when we are oriented towards matter (on the Arc of Descent) --but we > are supposed to be currently on the Arc of Ascent and such silly things > as right and wrong no longer apply. Tom says: > All decisions are based on the evaluation of alternatives. It is impossible > to disapprove of the making of comparisons without making one. [snip] > Behavior must be judged, in order to choose the better over the worse. > When Jesus said not to judge, he was disapproving of the holding of > grudges, not of the evaluation of behavior, which he did often, > according to the Bible. I would say that judgment is necessary for behavior, but should not be about a person's soul. For example, if someone kills a child, the behavior is wrong but the person is ignorant (and makes me very angry). > Christians have a long history of judging others, and look at the > pain this has caused the world. I would hope that theosophists have > already learned this lesson. The brand of judgment you are talking about included judging a person's basic quality as a human being and also inflicting harsh punishment. The other extreme is also popular today and carried to ridiculous proportions. "That bank robber's decision was right for him." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:02:13 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: Again on dreams Message-ID: <3404A3E5.B2F@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hi Last night i had this wierd dream, i was in an aunt's house in Tijuana, and suddenly one of my cousins (a young man) was in front of a mirror, and crashed it, and pulled out a cetro, and suddenly he was no more, he was a she, a young woman, with old clothes: Blavatsky.When she holds the cetrus, i feel like she was in possesion of a tremendous power, energy, energy that i could feel like a flood of light from the head to the feet. Was really amazing. That was a wonderful dream.I like to have this dreams, even that they could be only states of my psique. I had other dream with mirrors before. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:34:18 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Purrrr.. Message-ID: In message <3403B956.1A14AE6E@micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >> Feeling better? > >It depends. . .was a human involved in any of this? > >> Alan :-) > >Hmm. . .that name does sound familiar. . .and I'm sure I've seen that >face somewhere. You got it. There were also three pussy-cats involved. Raz, Tiz, and Blackie. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:08:41 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <34045107.222A@dmv.com> Kym you misinterpreted my post with the deliberate intention of getting my goat, and honestly you did, with your crude epithet. I had thought that your behavior might develope into some sort of humor, but apparently you only want to know how far I can be pushed. Well enough masquarade. I am a human being quite ordinary I'm sure, and the new kid on the block always gets this kind of treament, but I honestly believe that you know what you're doing, and perhaps I am not revealing much about myself but I am generally quite at peace with my world and the people in it. Thoroughly, Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:08:38 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <199708280206.WAA16810@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Vincent Beall > Subject: Some fun?!* > Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 7:44 PM > > I am a human being quite ordinary I'm sure, and the new kid on the block > always gets this kind of treament, but I honestly believe that you know > what you're doing, and perhaps I am not revealing much about myself but > I am generally quite at peace with my world and the people in it. > When I was the new kid on the block, which was two years ago, I was afraid to say ANYTHING. The Master debate was raging and I took the plunge with a tiny post. The guy from Montana emailed me privately and told me he liked it. From then on I haven't been able to shut up. I'm quite glad you're a peace with your world, because mine has been pure chaos since January. Severe illness lasting 3 months, job dissatisfaction by my husband after 15 years at the same company, hundreds of dollars spent on drugs, expensive pet vet bills, car accident, hospital tests, the ending of a 2 year friendhship on bad terms, etc. HEY! It's good to know that some one out there is at peace and having a good time! There may be hope for me yet. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:49:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Baltimore experience Message-ID: In message <3403E485.2CE2@dmv.com>, Vincent Beall writes >Well, I hope you have never made such a fool of yourself as I did that >night, believe me I am still truly embarrassed. > >Sincerely, > >Vincent I was truly heartened by your frank response in this, Vincent. Your post is a good example, IMHO, of how true theosophists behave. Congratulations. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:44:18 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Chains, Compassion, Correspondences and the Comfort of Theosophy Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Many have spent years, and perhaps lifetimes developing a system of >correspondences that appear in such system as TAROT/Cabala whereby each card >or number has an angel, a prinicple, a color, a sound, a smell, an herb, a >planet, a rune, and on and on. > >Some like Alan Bain have suggested that there is no point to this, yet his >KEYs TO THE KABALA seems to be just such an effort to make these efforts >practical for personal evolution. I may have spoken less than favorably of some people's *use* of these things, and I recently asked someone who posted on the list what practical application the business of rounds and chains had. I wanted to know what their view was. So far no meaningful response (although there was one to my secondary question). I am glad you recognise that my efforts in the ~Keys~ are intended as a serious attempt towards practical efforts! Peace and joy, etc., Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:03:02 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970828040302.006bf714@mail.eden.com> At 10:06 PM 8/27/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: Vincent Beall >> Subject: Some fun?!* >> Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 7:44 PM >> >> I am a human being quite ordinary I'm sure, and the new kid on the block >> always gets this kind of treament, but I honestly believe that you know >> what you're doing, and perhaps I am not revealing much about myself but >> I am generally quite at peace with my world and the people in it. >> >When I was the new kid on the block, which was two years ago, I >was afraid to say ANYTHING. The Master debate was raging and I >took the plunge with a tiny post. The guy from Montana emailed me privately and >told me he liked it. From then on I haven't been able to shut up. > >I'm quite glad you're a peace with your world, because mine has >been pure chaos since January. Severe illness lasting 3 months, job dissatisfaction >by my husband after 15 years at the same company, hundreds of dollars spent on drugs, >expensive pet vet bills, car accident, hospital tests, the ending of a 2 year >friendhship on bad terms, etc. HEY! It's good to know that some one out >there is at peace and having a good time! There may be hope for me yet. > >A. Safron Hi You may have noticed that whenever a newbee comes on board and hesitantly posts a msg, some times the msg may be seen by some subscribers as not to their liking, there is always encouraging responses from others. It is this kind of attitude and approach that is very healthy for the maillist. After all the number of theosophists in the world are miniscule and we need everyone we can find and can't afford to lose even a single one. When I see the kind of problems several people face -- many of them dead serious with no easy solution in sight -- there is always hope in that things could be worse. All theosophists are optimists and tha't is what keeps all of us going. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:03:04 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Baltimore experience Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970828040304.006b7d18@mail.eden.com> At 10:47 PM 8/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >In message <3403E485.2CE2@dmv.com>, Vincent Beall >writes >>Well, I hope you have never made such a fool of yourself as I did that >>night, believe me I am still truly embarrassed. >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Vincent > >I was truly heartened by your frank response in this, Vincent. Your >post is a good example, IMHO, of how true theosophists behave. >Congratulations. > >Alan >--------- I join Alan's views. Congratulations. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:13:40 -0400 From: Annette Rivington Subject: Dear Alan Message-ID: <3404FAF4.6F24@globalserve.net> As I have just ploughed through 55 digests and none from Buds, I am writing to you here. I finally decided that history has a place for me in the search for the truth and Mdme B. and associated readings does not go back far enough. I wanted to go way back to a time before all this written stuff, to try to avoid personal interpretation (re-writing history for power and all that). so I am currently studying Druids and Natural Magic. In his book "The Elements of the Druid Tradition", Philip Carr-Gomm states, "Godfrey Higgins, author of three hefty volumes, the first of which was entitled Celtic Druids; Gerald Massey who was similarly productive, and who,along with Higgins, was used as source material by Mme Blavatsky" intrigued me. There is no mention in the other books I bought about Druids of Mme B or Theosophy. I have dozens of questions for you, because I am guessing that you have experience with this "field", but a few will do: 1. Is it possible that Mme B. was influenced by Druidism (as revived in the 1800's)? 2. Is it possible that Jesus travelled to Gaul and/or Britain and was influenced by the underground (by that time) Druids? 3. The Druid Circle of Life is EXACTLY like the Native American Medicine Wheel. What other representations of Life are the same? And, why are the representations (diagrams) of concepts in Theosophy so darned complex? Why not a simple spiral or rosary for instance, why all these levels and names that the average person can't pronounce let alone memorize? (and if you guys tell me that it's because it's for the initiated only, that it takes years of discplined study to get there, then that's why you're losing members - this is the fast food era, it's not a fad it's part of our evolution, we can't go back, we can't sit still long enough to take it in, any concept has to be so simple it hits people like a ton a bricks and stays with them) 4. Is it not evident that, when one strips away all the trappings and details of any known set of religous practices and goes back far enough, they are all the same in basic content and based on a simple set of natural laws of cause and effect, which if you break you become extinct? 5. Is it correct to say that there are a few natural great energy centres on the planet, situated on ley lines I believe. Do these centres feature in Theosophy? 6. Isn't the medical profession now "discovering" the healing powers of "sound", and isn't Stonehenge not only a calendar device, but also built so that sound is manipulated - silence within the inner circle for meditation and sound producing on the outer with different sounds depending on the sun's position caused by the stones vibrating by the heat? Isn't sound a main ingredient of every religious practice, including opening and cleansing the Chakras? Is the sound of our possessions killing us? And, not withstanding the theories of Atlantis and Arcturus and other types of what I still call "wierd stuff", have we not been left direct evidence that before our recorded history, humans were a race of what we would consider "giants", with their architecture having been copied in size and grandeur by the Egyptians on down, so that, is it not possible to postulate that, in evloutionary terms we are on the second or third time around? To the rest of you, bored out of your trees no doubt, I am sorry to get so personal, but I can't get into specialty cats or S&M, or come back with those one-liners some of you do so well, and no-one could complete with hereticallacious Chuck.(Love ya Chuck) As for women's issues - been there, done that. Boy, did some of you get real testy just lately. I thought I heard swords clanging in the distance (mixed with the swish of Doss's robes that is). Here's my 2 cents worth (dear Doss, I love your writing style): Re debating content: Everyone is at a different stage. For those of us who have gone through the "arguing and defending the faith" stage, sometimes the debates seem time wasting - but surely we must understand the need for others to experience it, just as we did (and may do again). Re slinging insults: It's certainly not true to say that words never hurt. They do, sometimes enough to get through that good old protective shell, not only of the one to whom the diatribe is being directed, but also to those of us are listening and watching. Then we start to feel and think. (The first thing we feel is the pain of the person doing the slinging!) Re unconditional love: Seems to me it's about the most dangerous concept misinterpreted from what Jesus, Buddha and the rest of those Eastern guys said and it's not "natural", leading once again to extinction if everyone isn't doing it pefectly? Re the postings amorous bits - when do I get to see email consumation? Re the policis: For the longest time, I couldn't understand why groups held on so tightly to their hierarchies, traditions and by-laws and regulations, other than that practically, a set of rules followed by all makes things (and people) easier to control. My former Women's Business organization stood proudly each month and declared it was "Inclusive, not Exclusive", yet if you were black or yellow or without a mass of letters behind your name, you were useful as a dumb workhorse and never got invited to the "real" gatherings. Every group I have belonged to eventually ended up spending more time fighting about the rules rather than completing the mission, and it pissed me off. Your mail has helped me to observe the dynamics - the leaders emerging; the taking of sides; the emotional support by the nuturers; the same old stories of recriminations and backstabbing and downright lies in some cases to ruin a reputation and hence kill an idea. The wonderful evidence of the process of seeking the truth. Very much as a result of my contact with these postings, I am choosing to relearn the traditions of my "Tribe" and hang on for dear life to the ones that once provided me and my ancestors with order in the (always)encroaching chaos, with a sense of place and security in the (imagined)void, with the ability to love all things and people who wanted to be loved and to leave the others well alone for them to find their own way, to understand the past, live to the fullest in the present and to read the signs for the future, to seek the truth and hence, to fear very little except my own lack of discipline. Oh, and I'm going to read Atlas Shrugged again (for the fourth time and with understanding this time) Finally, to Alan - you once asked me where I grew up. I was born in Plymouth, we moved to Devizes, and except for a short stay in Suffolk, spent most of my youth about 10 minutes from Stonehenge, on a farm near Salisbury. I went to Bristol University (for the physics) and roamed around Dorset looking for Hardy's characters. In the early days (and I mean the late 50's) there were four generations of us living in a cottage that had no electricity, no inside toilet, and was mostly the original wattle and daub. We killed our own meat and hung it, grew all our own vegetables, and lived everyday by first predicting the weather and then by homilies. I could talk to animals, did my homework up a tree and spent all of my spare time lying around in a corn field or copse talking to invisible people (until I got wind of the opposite sex that is). While I learned Latin and French, my great-grandfather talked a diallect so strong with dipthongs and olde words that I couldn't understand him half the time, but I was passionately happy and didn't know I was any different from "normal" people. (And I do mean passionately happy, no passion in relationships or career or idea has ever come close to that absolute feeling that I was surrounded by timeless love, eons older and wiser than me, and that everything in nature was infinite and pefect and I was too). Oh how the mighty have fallen! But hey, you Americans, don't think I didn't know how you were living, 'cos later we got electricity and a TV and I fell in love with Dale Robertson on Wells Fargo and was most disappointed when I visited Buffalo, N.Y. just after emigrating and no-one was riding horses! Well, society did a good job on me and I helped because I didn't hold onto the magic and the power within, I gave it over to the materialisitc world - this so-called New World. When I left England, I slowly lost all connection until a few years ago a Hopi trained Indian told me that I was totally disconected and lost and that I would have to start the road back by hugging a tree everyday. (Mind you, it's pretty hard to hold onto the "magic" when the snow banks are taller than you are and you're freezing your ass off and then you get 2 months of Summer when it's too darned hot to move and you are on the mosquito's food chain) I have been in Canada for nearly thirty years and I still cry like a baby when I meditate and go back to the Wiltshire land and the sounds and the smells and the magical energy. But no-one can go back. The Tribe has to go on, taking the truth and the power with it to the "New Place", wherever it may be, because the truth and the energy never changes and governs all. I'm finally coming "home again" to that place within where we are all the same, there are no barriers of time and space, and I haven't missed the boat or wasted my life. Why do I contribute, I have asked myself, 'cos I read what I write and it's darned embarrassing. Well maybe it's not because I have any theosophy or philosophy to offer like you guys do, but because for a moment in time I am an example of who your groups should be looking to "lecture" to. You see, the physical emigrations are over, there is no more "land" to discover or to run away to and no better body or relationship or job than the ones we have chosen, so there's a mass of people out there who are no different than the ones Mme B. wanted to reach - they're lost, like I was, and for some of them, Theosophy is the only way home. Love to you All. Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:29:43 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: <199708280429.WAA08557@mailmx.micron.net> Titus wrote: >> > kymsmith@micron.net writes >> > >I feel so all alone. > >> > [Alan] Greetings to Kym from the entire population of Cornwall, UK! > >> [Ann] Greetings from the entire population of Chicago, which is >> around 3 million and includes all kinds of people. >Gee, Kym. How does it feel with millions of people fawning over you? "Fawning?" Are ye jealous? - neener, neener :-) Random acts of compassion, such as those from Alan and Ann, are so powerful and effecting. Actions, small yet tender, or words, few and kind, remind people that they are worthy - tells them that someone has recognized their existence. Such words and acts really can, literally, mean the difference between life and death. Although I wrote the statement "I feel so all alone" more in jest than truth - the response I received to it was an unexpected, pleasant, and appreciated gift. Now. . .don't you folks who ignored my 'call for help' feel like doo doo? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:55:25 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970828045525.00e4d980@mail.eden.com> At 12:13 AM 8/28/97 -0400, Annette Rivington wrote: >Re debating content: Everyone is at a different stage. For those of us >who have gone through the "arguing and defending the faith" stage, >sometimes the debates seem time wasting - but surely we must understand >the need for others to experience it, just as we did (and may do again). >Re slinging insults: It's certainly not true to say that words never >hurt. They do, sometimes enough to get through that good old protective >shell, not only of the one to whom the diatribe is being directed, but >also to those of us are listening and watching. Then we start to feel >and think. (The first thing we feel is the pain of the person doing the >slinging!) Dear Annette: You should have taken a long time writing the msg unless you are very fast on the key board! You have a wonderful command of language -- not at all surprised knowing where you grew up. You are right -- a wrong word written or said can hurt a lot more and last longer than physical pain. Physical pain we tend to forget. How many can remember today the ache one had 20 year ago. But a wrong word said 50 years ago can still linger and hurt someone. By the same token, different people react differently to anything that is said or done. Some times one has to use language which may initially hurt but will do a lot of good in the long run for the recipient -- like surgery -- you cut and it is painful -- but it may save future pain or stop the pain - or even save the life. I think that anything should be considered in an overall concept and when looked at from that viewpoint, one is able to make a judgement what to say or do and we hope we are right most of the time in what we say or what we do. In many many cases where there is a problem, I have found that a very direct approach -- especially personal one -- can solve problems quickly and easily. I have found this to be the case in my own day to day life. And so what may sometimes look like cruel and inconsiderate or unfair may after all may do a lot of good to everyone involved. My 2 cents worth. YMDMV. BTW, no one will find me wearing robes - at least on physical plane -- I don't know much about other planes!!! Good hearing from you. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:59:23 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <199708280459.WAA10185@mailmx.micron.net> Vincent wrote: >Kym you misinterpreted my post with the deliberate intention of getting >my goat, and honestly you did, with your crude epithet. I had thought >that your behavior might develope into some sort of humor, but >apparently you only want to know how far I can be pushed. Well enough >masquarade. Vincent, my love - you seemed bored with the postings, and wrote something like 'come out and play.' The problem here seems to be with what you interpret as "lighthearted" and what I interpret as "lighthearted." Just because my 'sense of humor' differs from yours does not automatically mean I am being malevolent - we suspect the worst of people too quickly, I think - and I am not exempt from that, either. However, I am often surprised how people can take what is clearly, at least to me, a ridiculous and meaningless statement as serious. My entire exchange with you has not been to make you look dumb or anything of that sort - I was just "playing." >I am a human being quite ordinary I'm sure, and the new kid on the block >always gets this kind of treament, but I honestly believe that you know >what you're doing, and perhaps I am not revealing much about myself but >I am generally quite at peace with my world and the people in it. Again, my response to you was not because you were the "new kid on the block" - I thought it might be interesting to engage you in banter. There are others on this list whom you may find satisfactory in the romper room department. . .happy hunting. SIDE NOTE TO ALL: And now. . .since I can't harass Vincent any longer, this mighty assemblage of butt-whoopin' is on the move. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:59:10 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Self-referential Statements Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970828045910.00e5d684@mail.eden.com> At 12:30 AM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >Although I wrote the statement "I feel so all alone" more in jest than truth >- the response I received to it was an unexpected, pleasant, and appreciated >gift. > >Now. . .don't you folks who ignored my 'call for help' feel like doo doo? > >Kym > When you said "I feel so all alone", it reminded me of a lecture by Krishnaji where he discusses how unique it is to be "alone" as compared to being "isolated". I think most of us some time or other feel very isolated for one reason or the other. Very rarely one feels "alone". mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:48:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Judging Message-ID: <970828134633_481748634@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-28 00:12:58 EDT, you write: > "That >bank robber's decision was right for him." If he doesn't get caught, then it was. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:48:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Again on dreams Message-ID: <970828134505_183395608@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-27 22:40:48 EDT, you write: >Last night i had this wierd dream, i was in an aunt's house in Tijuana, >and suddenly one of my cousins (a young man) was in front of a mirror, >and crashed it, and pulled out a cetro, It might be easier to interpret if I knew what a cetro is. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:56:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <970828135542_1226521505@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-28 02:29:32 EDT, you write: >there is always hope in that >things could be worse. All theosophists are optimists and tha't is what >keeps all of us going. I don't know. I keep hoping for them to get worse and it never happens! I try to be optimistic, but the damn planet refuses to blow up and I'm getting impatient! (sorry Doss, I just couldn't resist it) Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:04:33 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970828180433.00e9f998@mail.eden.com> At 01:57 PM 8/28/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-08-28 02:29:32 EDT, you write: > >>there is always hope in that >>things could be worse. All theosophists are optimists and tha't is what >>keeps all of us going. > >I don't know. I keep hoping for them to get worse and it never happens! I >try to be optimistic, but the damn planet refuses to blow up and I'm getting >impatient! > >(sorry Doss, I just couldn't resist it) > >Chuck the Heretic > chuck, you are not the only one waiting for the planet to blowup.you have good company. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:08:40 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: The Medicine Wheel Message-ID: Hello again everybody! My hosts computer crashed, and I haven't been on in a while, but it looks like there are a few new people on the list. Welcome! I saw the post regarding the possible interaction between Druidic and Native American philosophy, and although I haven't looked very deeply into the matter, I have run across something else, Annette, that might help. The Gallic tribes used to have a style of writing called "Ogham" which was a series of vertical and diagonal slashes that were used to mark events that occured in a particular place. For instance, if one group was scouting ahead to find a suitable place to make camp, they would leave a message in Ogham by sratching it into a stone or a tree. When the next group came up, they could read that etching and find out if they needed to take any extra precaution. Fairly recently, Ogham stones and trees have been found in quite a few areas, even as far down as New Mexico. They talk about the weather. The success of the hunt, and other things. This writing was in use a long time ago, and although I haven't seen anything regarding dating of these writings, I'm sure we would find that the Native Americans were theoretically here at the same time. In this case, there would definitely be some interraction between the two societies. Also, in the Book of Mormon, of which I am not, but I found this quite interesting, a character called Nephi went to the "New World" by an order of god, where he saw people with white skin, which, until recently would have been unthought of, but more and more evidence of such things are coming into view. It has long been known the Gallic Norse ships had sailed often to the eastern coast of Canada, particularly Newfoundland. Perhaps many chose to migrate further South, and decided not to return to their homeland. In any case, there are three possibilities, maybe more...probably more, for the similarity between the two wheels. One is that the Native American tribes picked up on Druidic philosophy and adapted in within their own. Another is that both nations came from the same philosophical source, and may have gotten along quite well. (Sometimes I like to wonder how different things would have been had a group of Olde World Gauls had visited the New World before anyone else in the fifteenth century. The last, which seems to me as likely as the second, in that it is very likely, is that the Norse adapted Native American philosophy into their own. The Gauls were well known for taking the philosophy of others and fitting it into their own giant puzzle. If not religious, it was diplomatic, and probably moreso the latter. I would say, in looking back, that many of the symbols and beliefs of the Druids that we read about today were not "true" druidic principles. Many may have been meant only as signs of peace. What better way to make peace, in those times, than to say, "Oh yes, we believe what you believe...see?" Once again, I express my ignorance in Gallic tradition and history, but I'm willing to bet that such tactics could have been used militarily as well. The Gauls were considered "barbaric", because they seemed to have a lack of organization. The Romans saw that they had not developed big roads or giant colloseums and thought that they were mindless and uncivilized. Also, the Gauls often fought between each other for land, from what I understand, as well as surrounding nations, although once the Romans got a good hold around their territories, they moved, more or less, into a defensive position. Many took their leave and simply crossed into what is now Ireland and Scotland. But, back to what I was getting at... Such "I agree with you" tactics would have been a great military strategy. I think, prehaps, that many Gallic tribes did as such when they agreed with Romans on their religious philosophies. They were set free to walk into Roman territory. Once they had enough of their own within, they could cause an uprising and take the nation from within and destroy its foundations. Anyhow, I hope this little bit of info helps you Annette. I still don't have a lot of time to delve into the Gallic matter. I'm still working on the hebrew old testament. Retranslation etc. The hardest things about it is that I don't know hebrew, *smile*, so, of course, I'm teaching myself that with a grammar book at the moment. Then, after a year or two, I'll probably have forgotten about Ogham trees and Medicine wheels, and...well, who knows. Its nice to have you here. And you too, Vincent. I didn't hear much of what you had to say before I was so rudely removed from the world of email. Love and slobbery kisses. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:35:58 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970828123558.00770230@pacbell.net> At 10:06 PM 8/27/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >I'm quite glad you're a peace with your world, because mine has >been pure chaos since January. Severe illness lasting 3 months, job dissatisfaction >by my husband after 15 years at the same company, hundreds of dollars spent on drugs, >expensive pet vet bills, car accident, hospital tests, the ending of a 2 year >friendhship on bad terms, etc. HEY! It's good to know that some one out >there is at peace and having a good time! There may be hope for me yet. Anne, I'm sending you my hugs and good vibes! I wouldn't presume to say that I *know* what you're going through, not being in your shoes. But having been through a rough year myself since February when they discovered I had extrememly high blood pressure, then a heart attack in March, another hospitalization in April for my heart, losing my health insurance, and on and on--I do understand!!!! I can't guarantee that you'll find true peace... I haven't either... but it's helped me tremendously to realize that my family has gathered me close in the familial bosom and stood by me every step of the way (even literally when I need help walking ;-D). I do hope that someone is always there for you, helping you to carry the tremendous burden you've been under. Sincerely hoping that things get better for you, Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:18:33 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Baltimore experience Message-ID: <3405B2E9.88E@dmv.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > I was truly heartened by your frank response in this, Vincent. Your > post is a good example, IMHO, of how true theosophists behave. > Congratulations. > > Alan Welcomed words, you are very gracious, thank you Alan. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:22:16 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Baltimore experience Message-ID: <3405B3C8.2935@dmv.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > >I was truly heartened by your frank response in this, Vincent. Your > >post is a good example, IMHO, of how true theosophists behave. > >Congratulations. > > > >Alan > >--------- > > I join Alan's views. Congratulations. > > mkr Your endorsement is much appreciated, thank you. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 17:12:46 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: My apology Message-ID: <199708282112.RAA26620@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Vincent, Your gracious apology is more than I deserve. It was inappropriate of me to bring this up publicly in the first place, but I figured the odds were against your being the person in question. Sorry to have embarrassed you further; all is forgiven and forgotten. And while I'm at it, that goes for every mean thing said or written about me by Theosophists in recent years. Grudge-holding is an honored Scorpio tradition that I share with the TS, a Scorpio organization. But it is destructive to all concerned. At least the ones I have to work on are only a few years old; the ones that the TS has yet to let go of are usually a century or so old. Hanging out with the ARE, which has far less karmic baggage encumbering it, has made this more apparent to me. Sincerely yours, Namaste, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:01:46 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: Peace to all beings Message-ID: <340584CA.29E8@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > I'm quite glad you're a peace with your world, because mine has > been pure chaos since January. Severe illness lasting 3 months, job dissatisfaction > by my husband after 15 years at the same company, hundreds of dollars spent on drugs, > expensive pet vet bills, car accident, hospital tests, the ending of a 2 year > friendhship on bad terms, etc. HEY! It's good to know that some one out > there is at peace and having a good time! There may be hope for me yet. > > A. Safron > All pepole have problems, in a different way. I wish you to have some peace. Best Wishes, Estrella P.S. That goes also to Kym.And to all. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:13:29 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <3405BFC9.4FEA@dmv.com> A. Safron wrote: > HEY! It's good to know that some one out > there is at peace and having a good time! There may be hope for me yet. > > A. Safron Thanks for the response! There was time when myself and three members of my immediate family were living in a rambling house, and all working long hours at the family bussiness trying to save it. Well I have to tell you, everything that could go wrong all happened at once; waves of misfortune each day. We were all so busy fixing problems we didn't even talk to each other for weeks. My mother had said to me in the middle of the onslaught that she believed that we were under a spiritual attack, and I had to solemnly agree. During that time it was difficult to have the energy to pray or meditate; there was only the dutiful knowing that eack task must be completed quietly with no errors. It was like a monastary in the holocaust, but we endured, and without anything said, it ended. It it sometimes asked "what did you learn from that"; perhaps times like these transform us in a deep way beyond our knowledge. True character is not simply learned; it is gained in our experiences. Wishing you strength and peace, Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:48:04 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: Yes,that is what moves us!! Message-ID: <34059DB4.395E@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > All theosophists are optimists and tha't is what > keeps all of us going. > > MKR > Right,Doss!! Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:45:48 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: My apology Message-ID: <3405D56C.577E@dmv.com> Thank you Paul for bringing this to a friendly resolution; your remarks have been well received. You had said that you were a Scorpio, and I am a Virgo, although, Mars figures prominently in my chart so temperance must be my watchword. I hope the TS doesn't lose you completely to the ARE. Today a flyer came announcing the TS Gathering at the Feliciano farm on September thirteenth. You may want to attend; the Gatherings are often attended by Theosophist from many parts of the East coast. In any case, Gemutlichkeit! Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:48:01 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: The Medicine Wheel Message-ID: <3405D5F1.4C99@dmv.com> Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: > Its nice to have you here. And you too, Vincent. I didn't hear much of > what you had to say before I was so rudely removed from the world of > email. > > Love and slobbery kisses. > --- > Jaqi. Thanks for the welcome, and especially the kisses! Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:10:29 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: Sorry Chuck Message-ID: <3405B105.3A12@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > >Last night i had this wierd dream, i was in an aunt's house in Tijuana, > >and suddenly one of my cousins (a young man) was in front of a mirror, > >and crashed it, and pulled out a cetro, > > It might be easier to interpret if I knew what a cetro is. > > Chuck the Heretic Sorry Chuck: i think i wanted to say "cetrus" or that large wood stick, commonly used by wizards, and covered with gold and jewels used by popes and kings. Sorry to all who didn't understand it too Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:14:25 -0700 From: Estrella Subject: The Gauls in the New world Message-ID: <3405B1F1.6362@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > (Sometimes I like to wonder how different things would have been had a > group of Olde World Gauls had visited the New World before anyone else You didn't see Asterix's "the great travel" didn't you?? Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:05:53 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <199708290046.UAA04647@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > Subject: Re: Some fun?!* > Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 11:05 PM > Hi > > When I see the kind of problems several people face -- many of them dead > serious with no easy solution in sight -- there is always hope in that > things could be worse. All theosophists are optimists and tha't is what > keeps all of us going. > > MKR How true. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:12:17 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: <199708290046.UAA04659@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Annette Rivington > Subject: Dear Alan > Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 11:13 PM > > Here's my 2 cents worth (dear Doss, I love your writing style): > Re the postings amorous bits - when do I get to see email consummation? If any of you do, it will probably be between me and Chuck the babe. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:01:15 -0400 From: Annette Rivington Subject: Re: Medcine Wheel Message-ID: <34061F5B.4BF5@globalserve.net> Thank you Jaqi for your information. I read about the Ogham writing but did not know it has been found as far south as New Mexico. I like your insights into the Gallic personality. It had not occured to me that they might have been that sneaky as I always imagined the Romans marching in with their new "technological lifestyle" of bathing and road building and just taking over. I try to stay unbiased about the Native Americans as I have a great fondness for them and like to think that they had a neat outlook on life and death. They were called savages too and were supposed to have no organization, except that I believe the American system of government was "borrowed" from the League of Six Nations! No further elaboration in deference to the group as I know I can get voluminous and not much theosphical. Good luck with your Hebrew. I am in awe. I am on vacation and feel guilty about pigging out on such light reading as "In Search of the Wise One", "The Story of B", and "Farewell to God". Plus I have just spent the afternoon playing with Star Trek CD Roms after my regular 5 year physical in which I was also told I had high blood pressure and had to remove all stress from my life or face the consequences! Talk about stress! I promise I will never mention Doss's clothing again. My best wishes to Anne and Lynn. Apart from the debilitating effects of serious illnesses and crises like they have been experiencing, I know health care is a much more serious issue for you guys. I'll try to send some energy your way and hope it helps. I will now hide under my desk in momentary shame, but don't expect me to stop commenting. (Big smile) Annette From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:57:47 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <199708290109.VAA11398@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Vincent Beall > Subject: Re: Some fun?!* > Date: Thursday, August 28, 1997 4:38 PM > > There was time when myself and three members of my immediate family were > living in a rambling house, and all working long hours at the family > bussiness trying to save it. . It was like a monastary in the > holocaust, but we endured, and without anything said, it ended. It always ends, it's the waiting for it to end that is hell. > > It it sometimes asked "what did you learn from that"; perhaps times like > these transform us in a deep way beyond our knowledge. True character is > not simply learned; it is gained in our experiences. I've learned that doctors are limited beings that usually evaluate your illness by your symptoms. If you don't fit the symptom pattern they learned in med school, they just scratch their heads and you are out of luck. They also tried the "shotgun" approach on me and gave me six different antibiotics. none of which worked. I finally suggested the one that worked, after one solid month of getting progressively sicker. I'm still not completely well, but a far cry from the severe illness that struck me all of June. > > Wishing you strength and peace, > Thanks! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:00:31 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <199708290109.VAA11404@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: techndex@pacbell.net > Subject: Re: Some fun?!* > Date: Thursday, August 28, 1997 2:39 PM > > I'm sending you my hugs and good vibes! I wouldn't presume to say that I > *know* what you're going through, not being in your shoes. But having been > through a rough year myself since February when they discovered I had > extrememly high blood pressure, then a heart attack in March, another > hospitalization in April for my heart, losing my health insurance, and on > and on--I do understand!!!! I can't guarantee that you'll find true > peace... I haven't either... but it's helped me tremendously to realize > that my family has gathered me close in the familial bosom and stood by me > every step of the way (even literally when I need help walking ;-D). I do > hope that someone is always there for you, helping you to carry the > tremendous burden you've been under. > > Sincerely hoping that things get better for you, My problems looks lilke a pin prick next to yours. Thanks for writing. May God bless you. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:58:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <6kYoSGAeChB0Ew1c@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199708280459.WAA10185@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >SIDE NOTE TO ALL: And now. . .since I can't harass Vincent any longer, this >mighty assemblage of butt-whoopin' is on the move. . . > >Kym Yeee-Ha! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:08:05 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Medicine Wheel Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >I'm still working on >the hebrew old testament. Retranslation etc. The hardest things about it >is that I don't know hebrew, *smile*, so, of course, I'm teaching myself >that with a grammar book at the moment. Now that's real hard work however you look at it. I suggest you look into the history of the OT before you get too enthusiastic. Like the Greek version (Septuagint) suggests that some if it (Septuagint or LXX) was translated from earlier rescensions of older hebrew texts than thos currently received. Then there is the Aramaic Peshitta version .... .. and some of the Dead Sea Scrolls texts. Alan the killjoy. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:46:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: In message <3404FAF4.6F24@globalserve.net>, Annette Rivington writes >I have dozens of questions for you, because I am >guessing that you have experience with this "field", but a few will do: > >1. Is it possible that Mme B. was influenced by Druidism (as revived in >the 1800's)? I think not to any appreciable extent. >2. Is it possible that Jesus travelled to Gaul and/or Britain and was >influenced by the underground (by that time) Druids? The Glastonbury legends claim that he went there (Glastonbury) with his "uncle" Joseph of Arimathea when J was a young lad. At that time the Druids were not underground, and probably controlled the place. It's a complicated, detailed, and much glamorized (and commercialized) story. The definitive first book to read on this is ~St. Joseph of Arimathea at Glastonbury~ by L. Smithett-Lewis, the last definitive edition of which appeared in 1956 or thereabouts. It has seen many editions and more than one publisher, but should be around somewhere. > >3. The Druid Circle of Life is EXACTLY like the Native American >Medicine Wheel. What other representations of Life are the same? And, >why are the representations (diagrams) of concepts in Theosophy so >darned complex? Why not a simple spiral or rosary for instance, why all >these levels and names that the average person can't pronounce let alone >memorize? (and if you guys tell me that it's because it's for the >initiated only, that it takes years of discplined study to get there, >then that's why you're losing members - this is the fast food era, it's >not a fad it's part of our evolution, we can't go back, we can't sit >still long enough to take it in, any concept has to be so simple it hits >people like a ton a bricks and stays with them) Dear Alan is already one of the "lost" members, as I do not see the necessity of supporting a power-based structure in order to pursue Truth. You might just find the Kabbalist Tree of Life basic diagram useful, but its only medium, not fast food! Download my ~Keys to Kabbalah~ from the website (below) and just stay with Part One for starters ... >4. Is it not evident that, when one strips away all the trappings and >details of any known set of religous practices and goes back far enough, >they are all the same in basic content and based on a simple set of >natural laws of cause and effect, which if you break you become extinct? The content differs, but it is, I am sure, the *laws* which lie behind them all, which is why I favor the Kabbalist way, as it is about Law first, and practices second. If we don't understand the laws, then how on earth can we expect to get the practices right? >5. Is it correct to say that there are a few natural great energy >centres on the planet, situated on ley lines I believe. Do these >centres feature in Theosophy? SFAIK they are mentioned in theosophical writings, but no great emphasis has been placed upon them by mainstream theosophical societies and writers. One exception is Dion Fortune, who in ~Avalon of the Heart~ [Glastonbury again] made it clear that she held this view, as, in part, do I. > >6. Isn't the medical profession now "discovering" the healing powers of >"sound", and isn't Stonehenge not only a calendar device, but also built >so that sound is manipulated - silence within the inner circle for >meditation and sound producing on the outer with different sounds >depending on the sun's position caused by the stones vibrating by the >heat? I have heard this idea, of course, but as the stones are shut off to free public access, we cannot try it out any more. > Isn't sound a main ingredient of every religious practice, >including opening and cleansing the Chakras? Is the sound of our >possessions killing us? Yes it is. As for the chakras, we need to be very careful when attempting to work with them. A little ignorance can do a lot of damage. > >And, not withstanding the theories of Atlantis and Arcturus and other >types of what I still call "wierd stuff", have we not been left direct >evidence that before our recorded history, humans were a race of what we >would consider "giants", with their architecture having been copied in >size and grandeur by the Egyptians on down, so that, is it not possible >to postulate that, in evloutionary terms we are on the second or third >time around? In ~From Atlantis to the Sphinx~ Colin Wilson argues that humanity is far older than current "scientific" theories profess. As for the size of ancient Egyptian architecture, browse around the website (below) for the file BAST.TXT (may be in my "personal" folder). > >Re slinging insults: It's certainly not true to say that words never >hurt. They do, sometimes enough to get through that good old protective >shell, not only of the one to whom the diatribe is being directed, but >also to those of us are listening and watching. Then we start to feel >and think. (The first thing we feel is the pain of the person doing the >slinging!) "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can break my heart." Donna Fargo (Country singer). >Re the postings amorous bits - when do I get to see email consumation? Oh! Oh! Oh! Arrrrrrr! Was it good for you .... ? > > >Finally, to Alan - you once asked me where I grew up. I was born in >Plymouth, we moved to Devizes, and except for a short stay in Suffolk, >spent most of my youth about 10 minutes from Stonehenge, on a farm near >Salisbury. I went to Bristol University (for the physics) and roamed >around Dorset looking for Hardy's characters. In the early days (and I >mean the late 50's) there were four generations of us living in a >cottage that had no electricity, no inside toilet, and was mostly the >original wattle and daub. We killed our own meat and hung it, grew all >our own vegetables, and lived everyday by first predicting the weather >and then by homilies. I could talk to animals, did my homework up a >tree and spent all of my spare time lying around in a corn field or >copse talking to invisible people (until I got wind of the opposite sex >that is). While I learned Latin and French, my great-grandfather talked >a diallect so strong with dipthongs and olde words that I couldn't >understand him half the time, but I was passionately happy and didn't >know I was any different from "normal" people. (And I do mean >passionately happy, no passion in relationships or career or idea has >ever come close to that absolute feeling that I was surrounded by >timeless love, eons older and wiser than me, and that everything in >nature was infinite and pefect and I was too). Oh how the mighty have >fallen! But hey, you Americans, don't think I didn't know how you were >living, 'cos later we got electricity and a TV and I fell in love with >Dale Robertson on Wells Fargo and was most disappointed when I visited >Buffalo, N.Y. just after emigrating and no-one was riding horses! Thanks for this! My own early days (esoterically speaking) were late 50's). > > When I left England, I slowly lost all >connection until a few years ago a Hopi trained Indian told me that I >was totally disconected and lost and that I would have to start the road >back by hugging a tree everyday. Trees can get importunate if you let them. They don't let you hug them for nothing :-) >I have been in Canada for nearly thirty years and I still cry like a >baby when I meditate and go back to the Wiltshire land and the sounds >and the smells and the magical energy. But no-one can go back. The >Tribe has to go on, taking the truth and the power with it to the "New >Place", wherever it may be, because the truth and the energy never >changes and governs all. I'm finally coming "home again" to that place >within where we are all the same, there are no barriers of time and >space, and I haven't missed the boat or wasted my life. I left Bristol for Cornwall and went back and forward both at once. Down here near Lands End we can get real close to the source just by watching and hearing the rough seas crash against the rocks and cliffs of this still rural and rugged land. > Theosophy is the only way home. Sort of, but small 't' theosophy, not the institutionalised kind. > >Love to you All. Annette. And you! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:50:26 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Judging Message-ID: <199708290119.VAA20448@NetGSI.com> >I don't understand the problem with the making of comparisons. All >decisions are based on the evaluation of alternatives. It is >impossible to disapprove of the making of comparisons without making >one. Or are you saying that the potential of all human beings is >identical? Making comparisons is fine, up to a point, and yes of course we all make them and will continue to do so. An Adept (a person while in a high altered state of consciousness) does not make comparisons or judgments. There are no judgements or choices to make in samadhi. Judging or comparing is ok as long as we are aware of what we are doing, but then again, only up to a point. That point is where judging becomes a bias or prejudice. >Behavior must be judged, in order to choose the better over the worse. >When Jesus said not to judge, he was disapproving of the holding of >grudges, not of the evaluation of behavior, which he did often, >according to the Bible. If we are honestly compassionate and caring people, then our behaviors will take care of themselves without need for judging them good or bad. Whenever you chose the "better" over the "worse" you are making value judgments, and these all tend to be cultural and temporary. Jesus said that he who is without sin among you let him cast the first stone--don't be a pot calling the kettle black. In other words, before you judge others, first be able to judge yourself, and very very few of us can do this. The fact of the matter is, when we finally learn to see ourselves as we really are, we will stop judging others. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:21:25 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Medcine Wheel Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970829032125.00f44bbc@mail.eden.com> At 09:00 PM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >Thank you Jaqi for your information. I read about the Ogham writing but >did not know it has been found as far south as New Mexico. I like your >insights into the Gallic personality. It had not occured to me that >they might have been that sneaky as I always imagined the Romans >marching in with their new "technological lifestyle" of bathing and road >building and just taking over. I try to stay unbiased about the Native >Americans as I have a great fondness for them and like to think that >they had a neat outlook on life and death. They were called savages too >and were supposed to have no organization, except that I believe the >American system of government was "borrowed" from the League of Six >Nations! >No further elaboration in deference to the group as I know I can get >voluminous and not much theosphical. Good luck with your Hebrew. I am >in awe. > >I am on vacation and feel guilty about pigging out on such light reading >as "In Search of the Wise One", "The Story of B", and "Farewell to >God". Plus I have just spent the afternoon playing with Star Trek CD >Roms after my regular 5 year physical in which I was also told I had >high blood pressure and had to remove all stress from my life or face >the consequences! Talk about stress! > High blood pressure does slowing affect various organs and it is easy to control these days. Godspeed in your efforts to control it. Stress is something more difficult to deal with. Unless one changes the lifestyle and work habits, it is not going tobe easy, IMHO. >I promise I will never mention Doss's clothing again. > Don't worry. I should run to the store and find some robes. Robes affect how others look to you and how they respond to you. Couple of years ago, I was scheduled to speak to an audience of Asian Indians about Shri Shankarachary, who is considered by everyone from HPB onwards as one of the Greatest Adepts to show up in the 6th century AD, I was cut off because the first speaker took away all the time allocated for the speakers. I told the organizers (in a light mood) that next time I am going tobe in the yellow/red robes of a Swamiji, so that I will get a royal treatment and treated as the most important speaker. So robes can work wonders.......... >My best wishes to Anne and Lynn. Apart from the debilitating effects of >serious illnesses and crises like they have been experiencing, I know >health care is a much more serious issue for you guys. I'll try to send >some energy your way and hope it helps. > >I will now hide under my desk in momentary shame, but don't expect me to >stop commenting. (Big smile) >Annette > We need to expand the bandwidth of the maillist, and all your comments are welcome. ......................mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:21:27 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970829032127.00f46ba4@mail.eden.com> At 09:17 PM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >In message <3404FAF4.6F24@globalserve.net>, Annette Rivington > writes > > > >>I have dozens of questions for you, because I am >>guessing that you have experience with this "field", but a few will do: >> >>1. Is it possible that Mme B. was influenced by Druidism (as revived in >>the 1800's)? > >I think not to any appreciable extent. > >>2. Is it possible that Jesus travelled to Gaul and/or Britain and was >>influenced by the underground (by that time) Druids? > >The Glastonbury legends claim that he went there (Glastonbury) with his >"uncle" Joseph of Arimathea when J was a young lad. At that time the >Druids were not underground, and probably controlled the place. It's a >complicated, detailed, and much glamorized (and commercialized) story. > >The definitive first book to read on this is ~St. Joseph of Arimathea at >Glastonbury~ by L. Smithett-Lewis, the last definitive edition of which >appeared in 1956 or thereabouts. It has seen many editions and more than >one publisher, but should be around somewhere. >> >>3. The Druid Circle of Life is EXACTLY like the Native American >>Medicine Wheel. What other representations of Life are the same? And, >>why are the representations (diagrams) of concepts in Theosophy so >>darned complex? Why not a simple spiral or rosary for instance, why all >>these levels and names that the average person can't pronounce let alone >>memorize? (and if you guys tell me that it's because it's for the >>initiated only, that it takes years of discplined study to get there, >>then that's why you're losing members - this is the fast food era, it's >>not a fad it's part of our evolution, we can't go back, we can't sit >>still long enough to take it in, any concept has to be so simple it hits >>people like a ton a bricks and stays with them) > >Dear Alan is already one of the "lost" members, as I do not see the >necessity of supporting a power-based structure in order to pursue >Truth. You might just find the Kabbalist Tree of Life basic diagram >useful, but its only medium, not fast food! Download my ~Keys to >Kabbalah~ from the website (below) and just stay with Part One for >starters ... Well said. How any organization can guide or organize or deliver or do anything with truth other than do the mechanical task of printing and publishing when no one knows first hand what Truth is? "Truth is a Pathless Land"!!!! ..............mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:21:28 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Glimmer of hope! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970829032128.00f48a60@mail.eden.com> -------------------------------------- "Dallas TenBroeck" wrote in theos-world: Having been educated some 60 years ago, my link to the 19th century may be closer than most who have been educated recently--and I have noticed that for them it is a distinct effort to force their minds and understanding to go back and meticulously examine the maning of what was said 50, 100 or 150 years ago. But no serious scholar refuses this kind of challenge for the "ease" of putting those ideas into the modern lingo, which is, as I look at it, very superficial indeed. ----------------------------------------------- MKR: When I read the above comment, I was elated to see someone belonging to an earlier generation becoming active in the Internet. Congratulations Dallas! When we look around the leadership of the Theosophical Organizations, most of them belonging tothe non-computer generation and their lack of interest and active participation, perhaps mostly attributable to their lack of a clear understanding of how Internet works, many times I have thought that it is a lost cause until such time the computer generation comes to leadership position. With Dallas' above comment, it has made my day -- we can still have some hope that those belonging to previous generation can learn to use e-mail etc. So let wait and keep looking to see them getting active. ........mkr PS: I am sure there are others here belonging to Dallas' generation and my congratulations to them too. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:08:48 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: The Number 7 Message-ID: <34065960.B28@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > I'd just spoken on some numerological theme; might have been > Seven in Isma`ili Esotericism, but I can't remember. Perhaps you can answer a problem I have with the number 7: In nature, the number 7 only seems to apppear in the number of "planets" that can be seen with the naked eye; all the other instances of 7 I have seen have been continuous phenomena, broken into 7 arbitrary parts. The only good explanation of the occult properties of the number 7 that I HAVE HEARD OR READ (note the stress) is that 7 is really 6, which appears a lot in nature, + 1, the unity. Another possibility is that two ones, to balance, need a fulcrum, making 3, and two threes, to balance, need a fulcrum, making 7. Do you have a better explanation (I hope)? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:33:31 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Hebrew Texts Message-ID: Alan, I understand your concerns about the "modern hebrew" texts which are dispersed now. If I could get my hands on a "real" version, I believe I would. Perhaps once I learn the language, I may just save up some money and fly to Jerusalem. Somebody's got to have one somewhere.... With the bible I have, the OT is Biblical Hebrew, Old Hebrew as some call it. The NT is Aramaic. In the future I plan to get an NT in greek as well, and begin yet another language. I have a feeling it will be quite a few years before I get around to that, esp. at the rate of progress I'm having with Hebrew. (which is agonizingly slow). At some point in time, I plan to have Bibles in as many languages as I can, if not for the learning of the languages themselves, (for what a better way to learn a language than by reading something one already knows?), then for an eye-opener for house-guests...:). Toodles. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:35:09 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: More on Cats Message-ID: <34065F8D.1ED1@sprynet.com> Jerry Schueler wrote: > Please don't use PETA as a reference. Those folks are against ALL > pets period and are a radical group as far as I am concerned. Not against all pets; only those who can survive in the wild (for example, tropical fish!). They are, however, against the breeding of animals for pets, but consider the adoption of an otherwise homeless domestic animal to be a "good thing". Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:51:33 GMT From: dewberry@poboxes.com (Bee Brown) Subject: Re: Glimmer of hope! Message-ID: <3405c635.82726787@mail.iconz.co.nz> On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:24:18 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >Thanks for using NetForward! >http://www.netforward.com >v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v > >-------------------------------------- > >"Dallas TenBroeck" wrote in theos-world: > > Having been educated some 60 years ago, my link to the 19th century may be >closer than most who have been educated recently--and I have noticed that >for them it is a distinct effort to force their minds and understanding to >go back and meticulously examine the maning of what was said 50, 100 or 150 >years ago. But no serious scholar refuses this kind of challenge for the >"ease" of putting those ideas into the modern lingo, which is, as I look at >it, very superficial indeed. > >----------------------------------------------- > >MKR: > >When I read the above comment, I was elated to see someone belonging to an >earlier generation becoming active in the Internet. Congratulations Dallas! > >When we look around the leadership of the Theosophical Organizations, most >of them belonging tothe non-computer generation and their lack of interest >and active participation, perhaps mostly attributable to their lack of a >clear understanding of how Internet works, many times I have thought that it >is a lost cause until such time the computer generation comes to leadership >position. > >With Dallas' above comment, it has made my day -- we can still have some >hope that those belonging to previous generation can learn to use e-mail etc. > >So let wait and keep looking to see them getting active. > >........mkr > >PS: I am sure there are others here belonging to Dallas' generation and my >congratulations to them too. > The New Zealand Section is setting up a web page and our National President has kicked off the NZ e-mail discussion list despite not being 'computer literate' about the Internet. He can still see the advantage and therefore, as his office secretary, I am able to translate his ideas into the Internet environment. He is also of the older generation but our computer members have shown him the possibilities and he has seen them. He is keen to put relevant topics on the list for discussion so that we can all get dialogue going. I am also nearly in that category and I find the whole thing very exciting. I hope to have a more NZ content as there is plenty of Theosophy on the other web sites that we can link to. Time will tell. Not quite precipitation but as close as this material world can get, just yet :-) Bee Brown Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. Life is not a problem to be solved; it is a mystery to be lived. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 00:49:26 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: untrustworthy spiritual paths Message-ID: <199708290748.AAA15746@scv1.apple.com> >I just saw your two pages, Jerry. you seem as a very wise person. I >don't trust too much Enochian magic and very much less Crowley writings, >but well...if you think it helps you..just be careful. Good for you. The point of neither Enochiana nor Crowleyana is to trust.... -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:44:38 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: The Number 7 Message-ID: <3406B626.29E1@dmv.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > I'd just spoken on some numerological theme; might have been > > Seven in Isma`ili Esotericism, but I can't remember. > > Perhaps you can answer a problem I have with the number 7: In nature, > the number 7 only seems to apppear in the number of "planets" that can > be seen with the naked eye; all the other instances of 7 I have seen > have been continuous phenomena, broken into 7 arbitrary parts. > > The only good explanation of the occult properties of the number 7 that > I HAVE HEARD OR READ (note the stress) is that 7 is really 6, which > appears a lot in nature, + 1, the unity. Another possibility is that two > ones, to balance, need a fulcrum, making 3, and two threes, to balance, > need a fulcrum, making 7. > > Do you have a better explanation (I hope)? > > Bart Lidofsky If I may be so bold as to comment, you might consult a concordance of to Old Teastament which contains hundreds of uses of seven. It should be further understood that a triad such as a trinity of persons etc., when taken as possible combinations of the elements reveals seven subsets. A B C AB AC BC ABC I hope this helps. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:10:44 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Numbering Message-ID: <3406CA54.1C88@dmv.com> It has been said by Jewish scholars that the law has seventy facets, and is is always strongly put that there are exactly 613 mitzvot or commandments. In my explorations of geometry I have been building models with bamboo sticks, and I came to wonder how many sticks would be required if one was to construct a model with 70 facets. Well, it appears to be that if such a model were constructed of 70 triangular facets it would take 666 sticks to completely interconnect the model with sticks. The model would have 37 outer vertices forming the 70 triangles. Of course 666 has been tauted as represtenting coruption due to excessive legalism, by Christian theologians, and I still wonder about the proper number of mitzvot. I was told by a Rabbi that there are actually many more laws in the Torah, and these are performances mostly, that pertain to special cirumstances. So further, might it be that the High Priest or other such person might be obligated to more commandments than the ordinary man. Revelation 18 states that 666 is a "human number", and has also been translated as the number of "a man". Maybe this is a little obtruse for this list, but I just thought I'd asks if anyone has a thought or two in this area. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:22:48 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: Numbering (Rev. 13:18) Message-ID: <3406CD28.7E1E@dmv.com> Vincent Beall wrote: Sorry for the misreferrence. Vincent From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 9:38:26 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Seven Message-ID: <199708291338.JAA28353@leo.vsla.edu> One important appearance of 7 in "nature" is that it has been determined by psychologists that 7 is the limit of items that can be retained in short term memory. I illustrated this last week when I had 7 things in my car to take to work, and in the process of collecting them all forgot to take my keys out of the ignition before slamming the locked door. Merde! $25 for 25 seconds of work by the locksmith. If we are somehow hardwired to see things in sets of 7 that would explain why we (seemingly arbitrarily) come up with 7 colors in the spectrum, 7 notes in the scale, etc. That might suggest that 7 isn't "out there" but rather a part of our perceptual apparatus. However, 7 is very important astrologically (in an objective way). Saturn takes 7 years to go from one angle of the chart to another. Uranus takes 7 years to go through a sign and Neptune takes 14. (Yeah, signs are arbitrary but it's still striking since these planets weren't discovered when people decided 7s were so fundamental.) And hey! Most objective of all, look at the periodic chart. Those inert elements with 8 electrons in the outer shell are the exception; most have from one to 7 which is what it takes to form compounds. And isn't there some sense to the claim that ages 7, 14, 21, 28, 35, 42 are all somehow turning points? Annemarie Schimmel's The Mystery of Numbers is a fun-to-read survey of numbers in religious and occult history. A friend of mine who is a clinical psychologist once reported to me that there was a well-known article called something like "The Magic 5 and 7" discussing all the appearances of these numbers in human psychology. That was many years ago; I could ask her about it if you're interested. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 97 9:46:39 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Gathering at Hector's Message-ID: <199708291346.JAA29400@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Vince, When I got back from vacation last week I had a voicemail message from Joan White asking if I'd be available to be one of several speakers the 13th. But the deadline for replying had passed before I got back, and anyhow I have to work that day. Hate to miss the event, which I always look forward to. Sundays work better generally. The friendly folks at the Baltimore and DC lodges and the Charlotte study center will never "lose" me, but I have let my membership in TSA lapse. However I do still belong to the Pasadena TS and had a pleasant visit there last spring. Really I've had one foot in Theosophy and the other in Cayce for twenty years now; I guess you could say for most of that time the theosophical foot bore most of the weight but now things have shifted. Have a great gathering and give folks my love. Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:34:18 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: More on Cats Message-ID: <3406DDEA.7BA2@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Jerry Schueler > > Subject: More on Cats > > Date: Tuesday, August 26, 1997 6:41 PM > > > > Please don't use PETA as a reference. Those folks are against ALL > > pets period and are a radical group as far as I am concerned. > > > I once joined PETA. Then they sent me a HUGE BOOK that sounded > like a radical manifesto that I couldn't agree with. I wrote them and > cancelled my membership. Though there is a body among Theosophists who believe that the PETA line is part of ahimsa, and that their attitude is very theosophical. Those who have read Blavatsky's lesser-known works would know that Blavatsky, at least, would not agree. They do some good work, but they also act as a press arm for the REALLY radical animal-rights organizations (the ones who bomb entire medical research labs because one experiment involving animals is taking place). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:37:48 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Baltimore experience Message-ID: <3406DEBC.7EC9@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > Dear Vincent, > > Glad it wasn't you. I've been talking to the lodge at least > once a year from 1990 onwards. Would guess that this occurred > in 1993 or 94, but am not sure. > > This was the only instance of such nastiness I ever saw in any > TS setting. The culprit was actually a ULT member and not a > lodge member if I recall correctly, and hasn't been seen in > a while. In the New York Lodge of TSA, there is a LOT of cross-membership. At one point, it was actively encouraged (not that it is discouraged, now, simply not on the front burner). We have a number of Arcane School members, as well. The key is remembering that each group has a different basic philosophy, and while one is welcome to tell the membership about the philosophies of the other groups, one must respect the philosophy of the group with whom you happen to be at the time. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:51:49 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: <199708291558.LAA28992@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > Subject: Re: Dear Alan > Date: Thursday, August 28, 1997 8:17 PM > Alan: Trees can get importunate if you let them. They don't let you hug them for nothing :-) True. Three years ago I was at Frank's, a large US chain of garden stores. I happened upon a lovely blue pine, about 3-4 ft tall. It would not leave me alone. I told my husband I had to have this tree. He looked at me like I was nuts, especially since he'd have to carry the thing. The salesman tried to carry another tree to my car, but I made him take it back and bring my tree to the trunk. Got it home and my husband is mightily straining to get this sucker out of the trunk as it weighs a ton. Luckily, our neighbor passes by and gives him a hand. Neighbor, who also worked for a landscaper, not only gets it out of car, but digs the hole and helps plant it. It's 5'4" now, about my height and you should see it at Christmas with all the lights on it. We can't have a big tree inside because of the cats, so this is our "real" Christmas tree. A. SAFron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 11:04:59 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: More on Cats Message-ID: <199708291606.MAA00721@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > Subject: Re: More on Cats > Date: Friday, August 29, 1997 9:35 AM > > Though there is a body among Theosophists who believe that the PETA > line is part of ahimsa, and that their attitude is very theosophical. > Those who have read Blavatsky's lesser-known works would know that > Blavatsky, at least, would not agree. They do some good work, but they > also act as a press arm for the REALLY radical animal-rights > organizations (the ones who bomb entire medical research labs because > one experiment involving animals is taking place). > Yep, Bart. I'd watch my back with this group and keep an eye peeled for strange goings on. Just not my thing. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:17:06 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: <199708291617.JAA11535@palrel3.hp.com> Annette Rivington writes > When I left England, I slowly lost all connection until a few years ago a > Hopi trained Indian told me that I was totally disconected and lost and that > I would have to start the road back by hugging a tree everyday. > I have been in Canada for nearly thirty years and I still cry like a > baby when I meditate and go back to the Wiltshire land and the sounds > and the smells and the magical energy. But no-one can go back. You might try California. Another famous Englishwoman, Mary Poppins, found a completely new spiritual avenue there. She developed an uncanny psychic ability to predict bad breath. The shingle outside her place of practice read SUPER CALIFORNIA MYSTIC EXPERT - HALITOSIS Fortunately for me, it's difficult to throw rotten tomatoes and fruit across the internet. ;) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:49:31 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: <3406FD9B.3D4A@sprynet.com> Annette Rivington wrote: > 1. Is it possible that Mme B. was influenced by Druidism (as revived in > the 1800's)? Probably, at least indirectly. > 2. Is it possible that Jesus travelled to Gaul and/or Britain and was > influenced by the underground (by that time) Druids? Not likely. > 3. The Druid Circle of Life is EXACTLY like the Native American > Medicine Wheel. Is it? Remember, all the information we have about the Druids is second-hand or speculation; there is virtually no primary knowledge about their society. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:15:24 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: My apology Message-ID: <340703AB.49AC@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > forgiven and forgotten. And while I'm at it, that goes for > every mean thing said or written about me by Theosophists in > recent years. Thank you. And back at you. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:20:31 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Number 7 Message-ID: <340704DF.49D4@sprynet.com> Vincent Beall wrote: > It should be further understood that a triad such as a trinity of > persons etc., when taken as possible combinations of the elements > reveals seven subsets. > > A > B > C > AB > AC > BC > ABC > > I hope this helps. Unfortunately, not. Emily Sellon came up with that one. I never got a chance, before her death, to point out the flaw: It does not consider the empty set, which makes a total of eight (the empty set MUST be considered in mathematics). I once proposed that the empty set stands for prolaya, and the 7 stands for manvantara, but got roundly laughed at for my trouble. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:25:14 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Seven Message-ID: <340705FA.4C02@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > One important appearance of 7 in "nature" is that it has been > determined by psychologists that 7 is the limit of items that > can be retained in short term memory. I illustrated this last > week when I had 7 things in my car to take to work, and in the > process of collecting them all forgot to take my keys out of > the ignition before slamming the locked door. Merde! $25 for > 25 seconds of work by the locksmith. Irrelevent, but useful: Carry a spare key on you in some way (such as in a shoe, or a pocket of a belt) that if your pocket is picked or you are mugged, your key will probably be safe. > And isn't there some sense to the claim that ages 7, 14, 21, > 28, 35, 42 are all somehow turning points? It originated with Aristotle, who probably got it from astrology. > there was a well-known article called something like "The Magic > 5 and 7" discussing all the appearances of these numbers in > human psychology. That was many years ago; I could ask her > about it if you're interested. I will try to look it up, myself, first. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:46:42 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: Re: The Number 7 Message-ID: <3406FCF2.7B23@dmv.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Vincent Beall wrote: > > It should be further understood that a triad such as a trinity of > > persons etc., when taken as possible combinations of the elements > > reveals seven subsets. > > > > A > > B > > C > > AB > > AC > > BC > > ABC > > > > I hope this helps. > > Unfortunately, not. Emily Sellon came up with that one. I never got a > chance, before her death, to point out the flaw: It does not consider > the empty set, which makes a total of eight (the empty set MUST be > considered in mathematics). > > I once proposed that the empty set stands for prolaya, and the 7 stands > for manvantara, but got roundly laughed at for my trouble. > > Bart Lidofsky If the problem concerns metamathematics which is really very modern, one would consider the null set, however, ancient metaphysics would 'not' presume the null set as it would actually be a consideration of a fouth element. Where one was considering the Hindu G-dhead for instance, the practical aspect of trinity would be lost; the null set would not represent any expression of the G-dhead, where subject of consideration is G-d. Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:42:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Sorry Chuck Message-ID: <970829134141_481868978@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-29 09:37:08 EDT, you write: > >Sorry Chuck: i think i wanted to say "cetrus" or that large wood stick, >commonly used by wizards, and covered with gold and jewels used by popes >and kings. >Sorry to all who didn't understand it too > >Estrella > Oh, that big stick thing. Usually it's called a wand or scepter depending on who's using it. Cetrus is totally new to me. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:33:17 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Medcine Wheel Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970829133317.00758b74@pacbell.net> At 09:00 PM 8/28/97 -0400, Annette wrote: >Plus I have just spent the afternoon playing with Star Trek CD >Roms after my regular 5 year physical in which I was also told I had >high blood pressure and had to remove all stress from my life or face >the consequences! Talk about stress! Hi Annette, Yep. My heart attack and peripheral vascular problems were caused by high blood pressure and a lot of stress. The blood spiking through your arteries can really tear them up. But I don't think you can remove *all* stress from your life (else how would you get anything accomplished?) and learn to cope with the stressors that you can't get out of your life. BTW, I have not learned how to do that yet. ;-D But I'm wishing you the best on controlling that blood pressure!!!!! If you're interested in subscribing to a blood pressure email discussion list, let me know. There's good support there, plus cardiologists who participate. > >I promise I will never mention Doss's clothing again. Awwww!!! I was so glad you did! I just loved that line about the "swish of Doss's robes"!!!! It was just perfect. > >My best wishes to Anne and Lynn. Apart from the debilitating effects of >serious illnesses and crises like they have been experiencing, I know >health care is a much more serious issue for you guys. I'll try to send >some energy your way and hope it helps. Thanks!! Now I know what that wonderful beam was that touched me. :-) >I will now hide under my desk in momentary shame, but don't expect me to >stop commenting. (Big smile) Please don't stop! I truly enjoyed your comments. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:40:01 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970829134001.0069e588@pacbell.net> At 09:10 PM 8/28/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >My problems looks lilke a pin prick next to yours. They're not. IMHO, our problems are tailored to fit us and the important thing is how serious your problem is to *you*. Yours sounds like a "biggie", that it has indeed been a rough experience for you. > Thanks for >writing. May God bless you. Thanks! And may God bless you, too! Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:48:29 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <199708300048.UAA06000@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: techndex@pacbell.net > Subject: Re: Some fun?!* > Date: Friday, August 29, 1997 3:43 PM > > At 09:10 PM 8/28/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: > >My problems looks lilke a pin prick next to yours. > > They're not. IMHO, our problems are tailored to fit us and the important > thing is how serious your problem is to *you*. Yours sounds like a > "biggie", that it has indeed been a rough experience for you. The physicality of it may not be as serious as yours, but yours was immediately recognizable. Mine was sort of a mystery for a month and half, which can wreak havoc on the psyche. It was sort of being on a medical roller-coaster, where a doc would give you one medication with the promise of cure, only to have it fail. Then that to have that happen six times, one right after the other, so that it went on for a month. Seems the docs never took the proper tests in the first place to know what bacteria I had or what medication to use. One urologist had the arrogance to tell me to take medication that had already failed. When I protested, he prescribed it anyway. He'll never see me again and I hope he flushes himself down the toilet.. I was sort of watching ER last night and started yelling at the top of my lungs, "Where was George Clooney when I needed him?" Thanks for letting me vent, A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:22:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: In message <199708291617.JAA11535@palrel3.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes > SUPER CALIFORNIA MYSTIC > EXPERT - HALITOSIS > >Fortunately for me, it's difficult to throw rotten tomatoes and fruit across >the internet. ;) There has to be a way. THERE MUST BE! Please, O Internet Deity! [Runs screaming to bathroom] Alan :-\ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:01:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Medcine Wheel Message-ID: <6yaI3CAWD3B0Ew0p@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970829032125.00f44bbc@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >I >was scheduled to speak to an audience of Asian Indians about Shri >Shankarachary, who is considered by everyone from HPB onwards as one of the >Greatest Adepts to show up in the 6th century AD So send it to me for the TI website ... ? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:58:59 -0400 From: libidium Subject: Re: alone & judgement Message-ID: <34077E63.302A@globalserve.net> mkr wrote: When you said "I feel so all alone", it reminded me of a lecture by Krishnaji where he discusses how unique it is to be "alone" as compared to being "isolated". I think most of us some time or other feel very isolated for one reason or the other. Very rarely one feels "alone". > > mkr I'd like an explanation of this. My experience since the "communications era" has been that I can feel very "alone" but rarely isolated. E.G.: when taking a stand on an issue say at work or in a volunteer group that turns out to be opposite to the (at least) vocal majority (brackets to include all those people who have not the courage to commit on an issue but wait to see which side it's best to be on), I feel "alone" but not isolated. Or, when in a "depressed" frame of mind when I would just love for someone to call and ask how I am (rather than for business advice), I feel alone but not isolated because I can phone, fax, email or drive to connection. Am I getting it wrong because I always perceive things in "physical or human" terms? Chuck, you wrote re judging: > If he doesn't get caught, then it was. > O.K. Chuck, pretend you are Solomon and these two women come to you for judgement on who should have the baby (you know the story). I'd REALLY like to hear your decision. And you can't copy Solomon's because that's too easy and anyway an A&E program we got recently said Solomon had hundreds of women in his harem and begat thousands of children and so, I presume, your answer would be different as your environmental experience is. Unless, oh my, your heredity isn't. "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" perhaps! I hope this and the following reaches you guys as I have just messed around with my mail program and "name" after receiving a foul message from someone called "stone cold" with swear words and a real cold feeling from it. I sent back white light and promptly changed my mail options, but have no manual. Regards Annette From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:08:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Number 7 Message-ID: In message <34065960.B28@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Another possibility is that two >ones, to balance, need a fulcrum, making 3, and two threes, to balance, >need a fulcrum, making 7. The "Star of David" or hexagram of two interlaced triangles is a useful example. There are six points sharing a common seventh - the centre. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:12:22 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: alone & judgement Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970830021222.00ce64b8@mail.eden.com> At 09:58 PM 8/29/97 -0400, libidium wrote: >mkr wrote: >When you said "I feel so all alone", it reminded me of a lecture by >Krishnaji where he discusses how unique it is to be "alone" as compared >to being "isolated". I think most of us some time or other feel very >isolated for one reason or the other. Very rarely one feels "alone". >> >> mkr > >I'd like an explanation of this. My experience since the >"communications era" has been that I can feel very "alone" but rarely >isolated. E.G.: when taking a stand on an issue say at work or in a >volunteer group that turns out to be opposite to the (at least) vocal >majority (brackets to include all those people who have not the courage >to commit on an issue but wait to see which side it's best to be on), I >feel "alone" but not isolated. Or, when in a "depressed" frame of mind >when I would just love for someone to call and ask how I am (rather than >for business advice), I feel alone but not isolated because I can phone, >fax, email or drive to connection. >Am I getting it wrong because I always perceive things in "physical or >human" terms? You are right. We are on the physical plane and so we have to pay attention to it. If you look at great things that have helped humanity, it is because a handful of men and women have taken a firm stand on issues they know are right eventhough they were not considered by the then masses as heretical or unwise, it is then one is alone -- not isolated because they have the welfare of everyone in their hearts and thus connected to everyone. So it is quite difficult to be a martyr and take tough unpopular stands. But it is such action that makes a different in the lives of a lot of people. So let us all act on what we feel right, not because of other consideration -- something sacred, religious, acceptable to the society, not willing to make our friends and family unhappy etc. etc. As more of us do it, we can change the society and each one of us can make a lot of difference. Others have done it. We can do it. MKR PS: Let me see if I can find K's lecture on "alone" and if I do, I will post it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:04:43 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hebrew Texts Message-ID: <+iVJDFArG3B0EwVa@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >With the bible I have, the OT is Biblical Hebrew, Old Hebrew as some call >it. The NT is Aramaic. What scripts? Is the Aramaic in square hebrew, or different characters? There are three main variations from different periods. I have a NT diglot of the Peshitta text in facing pages of hebrew and aramaic from the Bible Society in Jerusalem. Some of it is eye-opening. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:28:39 -0400 From: libidium Subject: Re: Some fun?!* Message-ID: <34078557.4889@globalserve.net> Vincent wrote: There was time when myself and three members of my immediate family were living in a rambling house, and all working long hours at the family bussiness trying to save it. Well I have to tell you, everything that could go wrong all happened at once; waves of misfortune each day. ......My mother had said to me in the middle of the onslaught that she > believed that we were under a spiritual attack, and I had to solemnly > agree. .........It was like a monastary in the > holocaust, but we endured, and without anything said, it ended. Dear Vincent: Thanks so much for sharing that. I have read it four times now to borrow some of the strength and peace it radiates. It's only been recently that I have dared to conceptualize "bad luck and/or bad judgement" as "spritual attack or testing". Also, thanks to theosophy (via Peter) for the concept of "learning life's lessons" and having them return, in your face, time and again until they are learned, real good. My aromatherapist friend borrowed the phrase "come dance with me" about facing adversity and I could parrot it but not feel it until recently. Sounds like you gained a lot and have led a very interesting life. I was particularly taken with your description "it was like a monastery in the holocaust". Imagery of your past or future? I was also taken by the "without anything said, it ended". I'm going to remember that, as my experience has been that so called "ended" things hang on for approx. ten years before really being ended. Peace. Annette From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:59:19 -0400 From: libidium Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1214 Message-ID: <34078C87.18B1@globalserve.net> Hi Estrella: glad to meet you. You wrote: > You didn't see Asterix's "the great travel" didn't you?? Is this a movie? Can you give a synopsis as I've never heard of it and think it might provide me with some info. You seem to dream vividly. Do you also interpret your dreams and utilize the results? I'll not forget the word cetrus now! P.S. (whisper) don't tell Doss, but he carries a cetrus to offical functions. Lots of love. Annette. Well MKR, you did kind of forgive me with that amusing story of your aborted lecture. Because of the circumstances of my joining the list, I kind of look to you for email etiquette leadership and was devastated (for about 15 seconds) when it appeared I had overstepped the limits. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 02:14:43 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Numbering Message-ID: In message <3406CA54.1C88@dmv.com>, Vincent Beall writes >Maybe this is a little obtruse for this list, but I just thought I'd >asks if anyone has a thought or two in this area. > >Vincent Yes! Parts of the early Xtian church did not receive the Book of Revelation, and there are still one or two dissenting pockets. I agree with them. Before people get fed up with my mention of it, it is not found in the Peshitta NT. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:52:52 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Glimmer of hope! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970830035252.00c0df00@mail.eden.com> MKR writes: It was so nice of you to have taken the time to write your detailed response. All of us are immensely benefitting by what you have said. By the way, I am somewhat familiar with HPB and her writings, even though I would consider myself more as a rookie in all Theosophical matters. Having grown up with computers for quite some time, I clearly see the potential of Internet medium to help make theosophy accessible to the world. Even though I grew up with computers, until I signed on to Internet and started participating in the theos-l maillist (which is the grand dad of all theosophical maillists and set up by an individual and not in any way directly or indirectly supported or controlled by any Theosophical organization and is totally free of any controls, editing, review etc - called "moderated" in the technical computer slang) I could not first hand fully understand its capabilities in terms of its potential to do an outstanding job in helping disseminate Theosophy around the world. The maillists also help exchange ideas, seek information from those who are "experts" in specific fields etc and it has immensely helped the participants including myself. Again, your posts have been of much help to me and others would confirm this as well. MKR PS: BTW, have you tried subscribing to theos-l, theos-news, theos-buds, theos-roots, theos-tech, ti-l -- all theosophical maillists? they all have a different flavor and especially theos-l has heavy traffic. At 05:13 AM 8/29/97 +0500, W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: >Aug 29th 1997 > >Dallas writes: > >Glad to hear from you "RAMADOSS" -- while age, in this incarnation, may >have given us some flexibility, like all true students, we are what any >student can make of oursleves by our particular focus, interest and >subsequent discipline. All such refinement is a personal endeavor. Are >you familiar with the TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE ? After HPB >published the Secret Doctrine in 1888, a number of students around her, >including professors like Crooks, etc., desired more details, and >accordingly they met week after week (and they had a court stenographer to >record the actual proceedings). HPB then used those reports to further >elaborate the explanations in the written word, and as a result in the >issues of LUCIFER of 1890-91 a series under this title was published. It >is now put up in book form by several publishers, including the THEOSOPHY >COMPMANY, Los Angeles (the version I use). There between pp 66 and 76 HPB >gives intersting details about the nature of our inner consciousness. > >I also encountered in Mr. Judge's NOTES ON THE BHAGAVAD GITA, pp. 99-101, >the following: > > "Our consciousness is one and not many, nor different from other >consciousnesses. It is not waking consciousness or sleeping consciousness, >or any other but consciousness itself... > > ...the one consciousness pierces up and down through all the states or >planes of Being, and serves to uphold the memory--whether complete or >incomplete--of each state's experiences... > > ...the one consciousness of each person is the Witness or Spectator of the >actions and expereinces of every state we are in or pass through. It >therefore follows that the waking consciousness of the mind is not separate >consciousness... > > ...the way to the ultimate goal must be entered. To take the first step >raises the possibility of success... > > ...the first step is giving up bad assoications, and securing a love of >wisdom...the scond is joining good company, listening, practicing...the >third is strengthening the first two, developing confidence and faith and >continuing in it. Whosoever dies thus, lays the foundation for ascent to >adeptship, or true wisdom." > >I think that our, or any era in time, has little to do with the desire to >know. Where there is a will, there is a way. But I have found no easy >path to esoteric or occult, or even to self-knowledge. > >I would add that most of what can be learned (in my esteem) about the >doctrines and metaphysics of THEOSOPHY lie in HPB's writings, her books and >articles. As I have studied them over the years it is more an more pressed >on my consciousness that we are dealing with a coherent whole, and that we >are in fact dealing with a synopsis, of the great record kept by the >ancient Lodge. I have found this referred to in SD I 272-3, and elsewhere, >as for instance in ISIS II 95-105. Both references make for very >intersting reading and reflection. > >I find it somewhat comforting to see that I/we are not swimming alone in a >shorelesss sea at midnight, and are running out of energy and hope. It is >comforting to me to find that I am able to access the work of earlier >seekers for wisdom and students of the perennial philosophy. I am glad to >try to review their work, and see if their findings are still valid. The >little experience that I have in this body has added to some aspects of >that research, and being quite sure of Egoic immortality, I am content with >the idea that when this body ceases, in the futur,the actual work done will >be resumed. It would be quite pointless to work so hard and get so little >for it. > >If reincarnation is a fact, then, as EGOS, we have all been "back" in many >previous ages and times, (and look forward to continued usefullness and a >continuity of our search), and have adapted to ancient and different >languages, cultures and situations. By this I mean that those are the >outward clothing only of the TRUE AND IMMORTAL EGO within each of us. That >does not change, but serfes as the RECORDER of all our experiences in so >many personalities past and also, of many more to come. > >That this HIGHER EGO (some use the designation: HIGHER SELF -- ATMA-BUDDHI >) is innate is easily cheked by quietly seeking for IT and appealing to IT. > There can be no reservations -- as an example if you are familiar with >Edward Bellamy's essay TO WHOM THIS MAY COME, the reflections made there by >one who is NOT a mind-reader, when placed in an environment of >compassionate mind-readers (but voiceless people) are most appropriate [ >The current issue of THEOSOPHY magazine is in the process of reprinting >this marvelous essay of Bellamy.] > >But enough -- we need not make a party of two or more, only that we can >share what we have learned with others who might profit from that. > >Allow me one more comment: "Theosophical Organizations" as HPB put it >succinctly, are forms or bodies where individualstudents can come together >to enlage their views of what Theosophical principles are, and how they may >be applied. No T.Organization, according to her had any right to try to >mold the thinking, or direct the study of any of its "members." Therefore >the "Leaders" of such T. Organizations had only one duty: to serve as >colorless sustainers and maintainers of a free forum at which all could be >invited to come and share in a common feast: the earch for knowledge and >wisdom. The submission to a "leader" has implied the danger of NOT >employing one's own free-will, and developing one's independent >discrimination. If we are IMMORTALS, then, resident in each one of us is >an IMMORTAL who retains a memory of all experience [see HPB KEY TO >THEOSOPHY p. 107] that is the esence of each personality. Of course we owe >reverence and gratitude to allwho have served us by opening our eyes to >perennial truth, but not to the extent of allowing ourselves to be led or >channeled in areas where we have to exert our own independent will and >decision making faculty. > >[ If you are interested in HPB's vies concerning the difference between >Theosophy, and the "Theosophical Societies" then read again her articles: > WHAT IS THEOSOPHY ? Theosophist, Vol 1 # 1 > HHAT ARE THE THEOSOPHISTS? -- idem. - > WHY I DO NOT RETURN TO INDIA, Theosophist July 1929 > A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR, Lucifer Vol. 4, p. 506 >These have been reprinted in pamphlets and are available from THEOSPHY >COMPANY, Los Angeles.] > > Best wishes to you and all Dallas > >====================================== > >At 10:21 PM 8/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >>-------------------------------------- >> >>"Dallas TenBroeck" wrote in theos-world: >> >> Having been educated some 60 years ago, my link to the 19th century may >be closer than most who have been educated recently--and I have noticed >that for them it is a distinct effort to force their minds and >understanding to >>go back and meticulously examine the maning of what was said 50, 100 or >150 years ago. But no serious scholar refuses this kind of challenge for >the "ease" of putting those ideas into the modern lingo, which is, as I >look at >>it, very superficial indeed. >> >>----------------------------------------------- >> >>MKR: >> >>When I read the above comment, I was elated to see someone belonging to an >>earlier generation becoming active in the Internet. Congratulations Dallas! >> >>When we look around the leadership of the Theosophical Organizations, most >>of them belonging tothe non-computer generation and their lack of interest >>and active participation, perhaps mostly attributable to their lack of a >>clear understanding of how Internet works, many times I have thought that it >>is a lost cause until such time the computer generation comes to leadership >>position. >> >>With Dallas' above comment, it has made my day -- we can still have some >>hope that those belonging to previous generation can learn to use e-mail etc. >> >>So let wait and keep looking to see them getting active. >> >>.........mkr >> >>PS: I am sure there are others here belonging to Dallas' generation and my >>congratulations to them too. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:09:19 -0400 From: libidium Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: <34079CEF.4D1C@globalserve.net> Alan, you wrote: The Glastonbury legends claim that he went there (Glastonbury) with his "uncle" Joseph of Arimathea when J was a young lad. At that time the Druids were not underground, and probably controlled the place. It's a complicated, detailed, and much glamorized (and commercialized) story. The definitive first book to read on this is ~St. Joseph of Arimathea at Glastonbury~ by L. Smithett-Lewis..... Gotcha. I'll find it somehow. You have probably realized by now that I am not well read and I have to confess I choose video over text and audio. So, synchronistically, A&E had a program here on the Aurther Legend a few nights ago and showed Glastonbury Tor and mentioned the legend of the Holy Grail being buried under the castle ruins, before saying it probably wasn't and moving on to show the excavation of a Persian palace where they think it might have been buried. It was said by some official in Glastonbury that the castle vaults were sealed and could not be opened. I thought,"why on earth not?" Download my ~Keys to Kabbalah~ from the website (below) and just stay with Part One for starters ... Thanks. I'll try. Just because you try to represent yourself as some kind of "outcast" (and I read the letter you got), I went to "Occult Glossary" by G. de Purucker to look up Qabbalah before commitment to your suggestion. If we don't understand the laws, then how on earth can we expect to get the practices right? Well, what about childhood, or initiate status? We attend the festivals and mimic the practices in all good faith because that is all we are capable of doing at that point. Later we learn and understand the Laws, and decide to continue or reject the practices. How else can we do it? Except of course by not being allowed to participate in the practices before we understand the Laws. But then, surely, part of the understanding of the Laws comes from the participation in the practices. Quite a chicken and egg dilema! Re sound: As for the chakras, we need to be very careful when attempting to work with them. A little ignorance can do a lot of damage. Oh dear. Now I will not be able to enjoy my "Tones and Colours" for opening the Chakras tape without hearing your words. I bet you'll tell me too that I shouldn't mess around burning Frankinsense and wearing fennell as a perfume to aid my concentration, have the sweetgrass and horseshoe nailed on my front door to keep evil out, or deck my bedroom with dream catchers and what ever greenery is in season. Not only that, I'm setting up a bowl of spring water with the intent of seeing visions. Good grief, I KNOW there's lots of kowledge associated with these things and they CAN be harmful when used for the wrong reasons, but they help release the loving spirit within, so what's the objection? I printed your response and am VERY grateful for all the reference material. > Oh! Oh! Oh! Arrrrrrr! Was it good for you .... ? Sorry Alan, you'll have to do better than that. As I gave up my plan to go to Manitoulin Island for my vacation due to lack of funds, I treated myself to some music and just bought a Clannad CD. If you want me to orgasm you'll have to sing like them singing "I Will Find You" from The Last of the Mohicans. My own early days (esoterically speaking) were late 50's). I have no idea what you mean by this, because I still haven't internalized what "esoterically" means. Trees can get importunate if you let them. They don't let you hug them for nothing :-) Hey buddy - no-one lets you hug them for nothing nowadays. Down here near Lands End we can get real close to the source just by watching and hearing the rough seas crash against the rocks and cliffs of this still rural and rugged land. May you enjoy it for a long time to come. I tried to imagine you in slacks and tweed jacket (with the arm patches of course) on the rocks enjoying this, but can't get past the black hat, outfit, and buckled shoes of my first image (Cromwellian I believe). Many thanks once again for your extensive reply. enough stuff for me to be going on with for a good while. (Big sigh of relief from rest of group) Cheers. Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:07:34 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1214 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970830040734.00cf4584@mail.eden.com> At 10:58 PM 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Estrella: glad to meet you. You wrote: >> You didn't see Asterix's "the great travel" didn't you?? > >Is this a movie? Can you give a synopsis as I've never heard of it and >think it might provide me with some info. > >You seem to dream vividly. Do you also interpret your dreams and >utilize the results? I'll not forget the word cetrus now! > >P.S. (whisper) don't tell Doss, but he carries a cetrus to offical >functions. > >Lots of love. Annette. > >Well MKR, you did kind of forgive me with that amusing story of your >aborted lecture. Because of the circumstances of my joining the list, I >kind of look to you for email etiquette leadership and was devastated >(for about 15 seconds) when it appeared I had overstepped the limits. > Well Annette, theos-l is one place you don't have to worry about any etiquette whatsoever. We all want each one of us be ourselves not put on a disguise. So there is "no limit" to overstep; if there is one, then it is something that you set yourself up, which of course is always dynamic as we tend to grow. With all the sometimes emotional exchanges that go on, we have a group of members with a large heart and an open mind and helpful attitude which is reflective of the effect theosophy has on everyone. We all enjoy your posts and look forward to hear from you. ........doss/mkr/ramadoss (no relative of MS-DOS) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:24:43 -0400 From: libidium Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1216 Message-ID: <3407AE9B.2F24@globalserve.net> From "K. Paul Johnson" > One important appearance of 7 in "nature" is that it has been > determined by psychologists that 7 is the limit of items that > can be retained in short term memory. I illustrated this last > week when I had 7 things in my car to take to work, and in the > process of collecting them all forgot to take my keys out of > the ignition before slamming the locked door. Merde! $25 for > 25 seconds of work by the locksmith. > Oh Paul I loved this story and thanks for the references. Eight bells and love to you. > ------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:17:06 -0700 > From: Titus Roth > You might try California. Another famous Englishwoman, Mary Poppins, found a > completely new spiritual avenue there. She developed an uncanny psychic > ability to predict bad breath. The shingle outside her place of practice read > > SUPER CALIFORNIA MYSTIC > EXPERT - HALITOSIS > > Fortunately for me, it's difficult to throw rotten tomatoes and fruit across > the internet. ;) O.K. Titus, what's the problem here? A little jealous are we? Look ye, I spent years hiding my light under a bushel, denying who I was and from whence I came. It was either let it blossom or maim my husband. Now aren't you pleased I chose the former, since Pete is a theosophist. Don't worry, it's blossoming with a vengence only at the moment. Did you read how I got here? Maybe it's poetic justice. Just say the word and I'm outa here! By the way, I don't need to do the California fantasy thing as my daughter did it for me a couple of years ago. She did all the usual tourist spots and rented a ragtop and had her commonlaw drive her majestically down the Coast Highway, stopping off for lunch at Clint Eastwood's restaurant prior to driving to Las Vegus to stay in the Luxor. What better way than for the children to live the dreams of the parents. Rosehip, I beg you, come let me out of the stocks. Sincerely annette > ------------------------------ > From: Bart Lidofsky Remember, all the information we have about the Druids is > second-hand or speculation; there is virtually no primary knowledge > about their society. I am honoured by your response, Bart. Merci. I realize that the above will eventually create a physical problem following the readings and have already found that one author says that another author's comments are untrue and round in circles. I had already decided how to deal with this problem. When the time is right, I will remember it all, both by remembering what my great-grandparents told me then discarding the post Roman influences, and because I believe the portal is always there for when one is worthy enough to pass through. May not be this lifetime though. You wrote about the eigth set. Surely the infinite set must be included too? You scare me a little? Felicitations. Annette. ---------------------------- Dear Lynn: You're welcome and thanks for the info. I appreciate tbe offer re the blood pressure email group but I think I will try natural methods. A few years back I found out quite accidently that not only did I have only one functioning kidney, probably since birth, but that I had a constriction on the good one. I refused to have a plastic tube inserted as I had grown to believe that cutting into the body sort of opened it up to more medical problems, which put me in conflict with my doctors. So I read some books about cancer cures with meditation and meditated every night for a year telling the constriction to disappear. It may still be there but at the end of that year, my renal scan showed normal kidney functioning. That proof started me on a spiritual path. I'm going to try the same with the blood pressure. So hows this for stress then: today I went to pay my bills after leaving them for a month while being busy at work and opened what I thought was the latest natural gas bill to find a notice of dicontinuence of service dated 6 days ago for 7 days from then. I knew the last two bills were paid because the money went out of my bank account. by the time I had waited my turn (we are experiencing a high volume of calls) and found out that the gas company had changed all the account numbers in my area, without thinking about the direct debit by phone customers, my blood pressure was sky high. thousands of dollars from consumers went into limbo, "because our accountants couldn't post it", she said. That made it worse. Oh yeah - blame the accoutants! I called the bank and they did not know who would be legally responsible in these circumstances. and later I got that vile email message from someone named "stone cold". thank you for caring. Take care yourself. annette Finally: Please guys don't think I will keep on like this. I was so pleased you were there when my crisis hit and it was obviously the flood gates opening. I have been asked for a few months now to set up an informal discussion group to start off with 5 or so sessions on Love and then see where it goes. I've been avoiding doing this, fear of failure, but now I think I might give it a try. I lost my confidence there for a while, but your hints tell me I've got it back. back to moderation. Love. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:09:51 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Hebrew Texts Message-ID: Me: > >With the bible I have, the OT is Biblical Hebrew, Old Hebrew as some call > >it. The NT is Aramaic. Alan: > What scripts? Is the Aramaic in square hebrew, or different characters? > There are three main variations from different periods. I have a NT > diglot of the Peshitta text in facing pages of hebrew and aramaic from > the Bible Society in Jerusalem. Some of it is eye-opening. Me: *laugh* you got me, Alan. I have no idea what you are referring to, except that I have seen some odd curvacious letters which were referred to as "modern script" I wasn't aware of three, however. I guess one would say it is square hebrew, as is the aramaic. The only difference I gather between the aramaic and hebrew text in my bible, aside from the differing words and meanings, is the diminished variety of accent and syllable markers. The consonants are written exactly alike, in block fashion. The grammar I have introduces biblical script in modern usage. Sort of a mix of old and new, I suppose. You would probably know much more about it than I, particularly at this very early point in my learning. In addition to the grammar and the bible, I purchased the Hebrew and English Lexicon to the OT, by Brown, Driver, and Briggs, an Oxford Publication. I don't know if will be of any use to me, for it is very possible that many of the definitions were "biased", but I don't know enough about any of the authors to make any definite assumptions, and since I don't have access to a speaker of fluent biblical hebrew at this point, I guess I'll have to take their word for it...:) Gears grinding, Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:13:45 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Hebrew Texts Message-ID: Alan, I almost forgot. The Bible I have is from The Bible Society in Jerusalem as well. TBS in Israel is what it says, but the pobox is in Jerus. Old Testament text: Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, 2nd ed., amend 1977 NT text: United Bible Societies translation, 1976, rev. 1991. What is diglot? --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:34:14 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Glimmer of hope! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970830183414.00ce4dc4@mail.eden.com> Dear Dallas: Thanks again for your detailed response and appreciate it. While Theosophy expounded by HPB, Judge, Olcott and others presents, in my humble opinion the most comprehensive explanation of how man and the universe and everything else is related - whence we all came from and where we are all going. While much study and work goes on relating to the philosophical aspects, without belittleing the importance of this aspect of Theosophy, it is my concern that the practical side needs to be paid a lot more attention than has been done in the recent decades. If we go back to the early days of modern Theosophy, the Founders have repeatedly tried to impress on everyone that Their objective is to form a real brotherhood/sisterhood of human beings so that the Theosophical doctrines will eventually make a change of heart of the human beings and thus ameliorate the conditions of the "Orphan Humanity". We see a lot of efforts being put by modern day exponents/workers trying to impress on the public by their formal academic achievements/scholarships by showing off their Ph.Ds or M.D.s by hoping some how or the other that people will pay attention to what they are trying to say because they have the impressive formal academic degrees. While all of us are glad that these fine men and women who have achieved academic distinction in their fields - whether they be in biology, geography, arts, sciences - and they are trying to make the public pay attention to the gems of Theosophical ideas/doctrines, more practical work needs to be done. If we just review the early days of TS, we see HPB founding the first Sanskrit School in Madras and with Olcott founding the first School for Untouchables and many other activities which touch the daily lives of people. I have not seen much of activities in the recent days where Theosophical Organizations trying to "do" something to really help people. Such direct activities make a real change in everyone touched by them. I have been trying in my own little way what I can do in getting involved in local activities which touch the needy and down trodden people. Any amount of high sounding lectures, discussions, Internet e-mail discussions etc are of not much use unless we are able to connect them with practical activities. TS organizations are generally too busy in lecturing and publishing activities that they don't seem to see that unless all our efforts produce physical level effects, all will end up as entities doing the mechanical job of printing and publishing. There may be other views which may be contrary to what I have stated. Let us all discuss. M K Ramadoss ========================================================================= At 05:43 AM 8/30/97 +0530, Dallas TenBroeck wrote: >Aug 30th 1997 > >Dallas TenBroeck wrote > >Dear Ramadoss: > > Thanks for yours of the Aug 30th. What you say is noted. > > Theosophy is simply a logical applications of common-sense (much as the >logic implied in computers -- as to the following of an exact program to >get a desired result). > > It may sound difficult at first approach, because it tries to show people >who come to it from various backgrounds the reasonableness, the >common-sense that is inherent in it. > > So from one point of view you could say that theosophy is the way everyone >lives their lives as compared to an ideal pattern (just as the entries one >might make under " .doc " are individual files, while in the background the >innumerable files of the OPERATIONAL SYSTEM adjust to the input and make >sure that no rules are violated. > >I f you wish to study technical Theosophy, so as to draw others' attention >to the underlying patterns and rules of living (as ideal), then you have to >learn the philosophical, metaphysical, and historical approaches. That is >only to the extent that it gives us access to others' education and >cultures, so that we can show how our minds and theirs coincide in so many >ways, although they may seem to be different. And the vocabularies needed >to make statements in those systems are complex and vast, also they can be >very precise, (as the technical langage between computer experts is very >exact.) Any of the Sciences, or philosophies develops among its "experts" >a vocabulary which has great precision, but which also may isolate that >discipline from the easy understanding of others -- who have to learn >something of that to proceed. > > Also, many people mistake Theosophy for "a religion." It is not that at >all,. Any more than the rules pertaining to MS-WORD or MS-DOS, or MAC, or >WINDOWS 95 are a "religion." They simply exsist as an underlying pattern >which hold the whole structure of a computer together, and to the extent >hat it is possible for the operator of any computer to reach out to others >(as in Internet) so the disiplines of any one computer can be made >understood (even if it is between MS-DOS and a MAC) by the appropriate >program which draws on both and unites them. > > If, for instance, we had to talk to a computer user who only knew French, >or Russian, or Chinese, we would have to find a translator (or a program) >that would put what we deisred to say to his computer, IN HIS LANGUAGE. >The ideas may be the same that we exchange, but the idiom, or means of >recording/reading happens to be different. Even so, such translation >programs have to be very sophisticated, as human languages also carry >idiomatic inflections, and casual metaphors which defy mechanical >translation and require the oversightof a human who knows both languages as >they are currently spoken -- and so on. But I am sure you know this well. > > One could say briefly that Theosophy exposes to us the imperishable source >from which all Life comes. It indicates that the intelligence resident at >the core of our being is of that same imperishable essence. It therefore >states briefly that man in Mind/Soul and SPIRIT is an immoral. [ The >mind/soul in Sanskrit is termed MANAS, and the SPIRIT is ATMA-BUDDHI to use >technical terms. ] > > It then indicates that all beings in manifestation are of that sme ONE >SOURCE/CAUSE. But that each is like a pupil in a vast School of Life, and >lives, works, and learns at the stage and in the condition appropriate to >its advance and experience. Not all the pupils are at the same stage -- >just as we find in our educational institutions. > > Since Life is one, and emanates from the ONE SOURCE, the laws of evolution >are unbendable, rigid, and the include the whole structure of living, and >of individual progress to an impersonal and fair basis. Each gets what >they work for and deserve. There are no favourites, and--No one can by >prayer or hope or special promises CAUSE THAT ONE LAW TO DEVIATE from its >fixed condition -- (or else there would be, as in a computer a "crash" and >the "hard disc" would fail. From such a failure using the laws of computer >science, some of the records and programs there might be recovered, but if >there has been the introduction of a "disease," such as a "virus" the whole >system for that particular computer becomes "corrupted" and it goes awry as >compared to the IDEAL PROGRAM) And perhaps nothing can be recovered except >from an uncorrupted "backup" system which has been kept carefully up to >date. It is said that our whole Universe and every being in it forms a >part of a stupendous "backup system" using a component of "invisible >nature" called in Sanskrit AKASA, and by modern New Age spiritualists "the >astral light." > > This comparison may not appeal to many who read this, because if we are >honest, and sincere, and look into our own minds, and motives we find that >we have already deviated from the ideal, but, we still retain the power to >go back to the contemplation of the IDEAL and, also, to exert our "will" to >discipline ourselves and return to the true program of right living. It is >amazing how the parallels between Theosophy and the operation of a computer >and computers (as on Internet) exist. > > Theosophy observes that all beings are intelligent and that the stage we >call "human" is one where the mind can discuss matters and ideas, with >itself. The power of self-reflection is somewhat similar to the hope that >some computer developers have of securing from the highly complex computer >some glimmer of independent and creative SElf-hood, of independent thought. > But that is another story. > > In human beings the studies and efforts of a whole life can be summed up >at the death of the body into two groups: 1. the "good" done during life, >and 2 the "bad" or evil done. Nature, being both intelligent and lawful, >gathers the memory of both of these into respective but interrelated >groups, appropriate to each human, and stores them, [in the Akasa or Astral >Light] so that they can be retrieved when the human Soul/Mind >REINCARNATES. At each such return of the Intelligence into a new baby body >the educational process resumes and together with that return of the >Mind/Soul is the "cache" of "good," and "bad/evil" habits, character, >mental and moral capacity, power of thinking, etc... which taken as a >whole, make for the Person (you and me and everyone else) as we now are. >It is as if each "computer"--if it had such an individuality, and could >reincarnate into a fresh machine with increased capabilities, brought with >it the "memory" of all the files it had generated in the past, and was >accordingly, even in such a new and enhanced environment, influenced >heavily by those past memories. But, is thi s not the exact process that >we follow when we secure a computer with enhanced capacities as compared to >the old one what we were useing ? > > I am thus, trying to show that the main ideas of Theosophy parallel the >computer age we now live in, remarkably closely. We have a single source >for all Life, we have individual independence and trainability, by the >exertion of free will when the man-stage is reached, we all pilot and >define our own increasing education, we have as an impartial and >undeviating background the impersonal and undeviating laws of evolution, >and we have the progressive reimbodiment of actual experience and learning >that is our own, in new equipment, largely made up from parts and memories >that are "recycled" from our own past. This is called the operation of >Karma (the Law) and of Reincarnation (the proces of individualprogress). >Outof this whole one senses that Human Solidarity and one-ness is a >reflection of the UNIVERSAL ONE LIFE WORKING AS IT DOES CONSTANTLY TO >EQUALLY EDUCATE AND RAISE ALL ITS MANY COMPONENT TO THE LEVEL OF ITS OWN >WISDOM AND NOWLEDGE. In this we see an expresion of the ultimate goal of >existence, the achievement of Universal Wisdom, and the sharing of that >with those who are struggling to rise to the same level. so you have the >universal concept of cooperation and of tutelage -- whereby the wiser >constantly instruct the less wise. > > Theosophy, thus considers that humanity (you and me, etc...) is only a >stage between the ignorance and innocense of childhood on one side, and the >wisdom and true impersonal and compassionate governing on the other. On >one side we have the "life-atoms," and on the other we have those same >"life-atoms" which hve trained themselves over milliards of years into >becoming WISE and knowing most if not all of the laws of the Universe. In >ancient India such wise men were called the Rishis and the Mahatmas, and >their methods of training have been handed down for generations to their >descendents as a treasure house of wisdom for the ages and humanitiws of >the present, and of those to come. > > And, in a nut-shell that is what theosophy is all about ! > > Personally I have found the learning process endlessly stimulating and >fascinating, as something I could grow on, and share with others. > > I hope this proves to be of some help, > > Dallas From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 02:05:38 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hebrew Texts Message-ID: <1Jk7ZFAiNMC0EwfI@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >Alan, I almost forgot. The Bible I have is from The Bible Society in >Jerusalem as well. TBS in Israel is what it says, but the pobox is in >Jerus. > >Old Testament text: Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, 2nd ed., amend 1977 >NT text: United Bible Societies translation, 1976, rev. 1991. > >What is diglot? >--- >Jaqi. > Side by side comparative texts; in this case translations. My Bible Society Jerusalem NT is headed on the title page, "The New Covenant, commonly called The New Testament; Peshitta Aramaic Texr witha Hebrew Translation. Edited by the Aramaic Scriptures Research Society in Israel. The Hebrew has been translated *directly* from the Aramaic text, so that no other language has been involved. The only English in my copy is the Introduction. Part of this states: "For this diglot we have used the eastern text of the Peshitta, in which we have followed the oriental sequence of the books, which places the General Epistles (James, Peter, John and Jude) immediately after the Acts of the Apostles, and before the Epistles of Paul. The old manuscripts of the Peshitta did not contain four of the General Epistles: 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John and Jude, nor the book of Revelation. These four Epistles were added to the Peshitta from copies of Syriac [Aramaic] manuscripts of the revision in A.D. 616 made by Thomas of Harkel, bishop of Mabog (Hierapolis) ..." The Syro-Chaldean Church in India (Church of the East) based in Trichur, Kerala, still uses the Peshitta text minus the above mentioned Epistles and Revelation, none of which it receives as canonical ... Have fun! Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:42:09 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hebrew Texts Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >The grammar I have introduces biblical script in modern usage. Sort of a >mix of old and new, I suppose. You would probably know much more about it >than I, particularly at this very early point in my learning. In addition >to the grammar and the bible, I purchased the Hebrew and English Lexicon >to the OT, by Brown, Driver, and Briggs, an Oxford Publication. This is an *essential* reference work, and if you can get it, there is also an index to it as a separate publication. I have it, but not to hand, so remind me to send details. Also, if you haven't already got it, Strongs Exhaustive Concordance (MacDonald Publishing, McLean, Virginia - though there is also a paperback version by someone]. You are lucky to have the Hebrew and Aramaic in the same script. As the alphabets are identical, all you have to worry about is the syntax and grammar. Bear in mind that prior to the tenth (9th) century all Hebrew was unpointed. Aramaic is unpointed anyway, which is why your text is probably less "cluttered" to look at. I am no great language scholar, BTW, though I have enough to get me by! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:36:44 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Masoretes Re: Hebrew Texts Message-ID: I understand that the point system was developed quite recently, AD500 - 1000, which has always made me quite skeptical as to modern translation. However, as I said before, I have to use what I have....*sigh* I figure that if there is a question behind Yahweh and Jehovah, there could very possibly be a question behind several other words. I have access to Strong's Concordance at my local library, and eventually the time will come when I need to use it, I'm sure. I agree, they are both musts! I feel quite relieved at knowing the definition of a diglot...at first it sounded like something from Saturday Night Live (Sniglets). Bad joke. Anyhow, thank you for the info and luck wishing. Perhaps I can speak with you about these matters as an equal in about ten years...:). One question, however. Do you put a lot of faith in the Masoretic Text? Or have you learned enough to discard the point system? Just curious. As I said, I'm not so sure that the Masoretes scholars were perfect in their translations... hmmm. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:57:09 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Casting Off the Toga. Message-ID: Discarding the Roman influence on Gallic tradition will be a great feat indeed. There are only two things that I might be able to throw in that seemed very individualistic and common among the tribes. The first was that both women and men were held with more or less equal status. Women and men battled side by side. They both traded, although the men fared better due to the less equal status of women in other societies. Women made weapons. Men took care of children. There weren't any discriminatory duties "assigned" to one particular sex, however, most women and men held to what we now call sexist ideals, simply because of physical structure. The fact that women fought along side men was considered a factor in battles won. Men of other nations were less likely to cut a woman's throat. Some nations, if I remember correctly from various readings, wrote that such tactics were "unfair" and, that word again, "barbaric". Another interesting tidbit is the tribes' attitude toward hermaphrodites. Alexander the Great had the most influence on the conquer of Gallic tribes simply because of his sex. Not only was he a great man of compromise, but he possessed something which the Gauls held dear. Hermaphroditism. Many weapons fashioned after his conquer praise him greatly. He was a hero in many Gallic eyes, even though he was their conqueror. These two points are the only things I can think of right now that didn't appear to have any outside influence. In fact, (I can't be sure, because my historical timelines are folded like swords), the development of Hermes the messenger, (he was the god of something else too, wasn't he?), may have come after contact with the Gauls. If not, perhaps migrating Gallic peoples contributed this god before the Roman civilization rose to its greatness. Who knows. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 07:00:56 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1214 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970831120056.00e2daf0@mail.eden.com> At 10:58 PM 8/29/97 -0400, libidium wrote: >P.S. (whisper) don't tell Doss, but he carries a cetrus to offical >functions. No need to carry anything. Computer Keyboard and theos-l is all that is needed. Keyboard is mightier than sword! .....doss/mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 07:07:37 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1214 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970831120737.00c5abd8@mail.eden.com> At 10:58 PM 8/29/97 -0400, libidium wrote: > Because of the circumstances of my joining the list, I You will really be amazed how people get to Theosophy. When I was looking for the list, I had a very hard time finding it (I was new to Internet and did not know much about search engines etc. etc.) Scant help was forthcoming from the TS organization and it was a kind hearted Theosophist who faxed me the information (earned a lot of good Karma) when I casually mentioned Internet and my interest in discussions and he volunteered the information even though this list is not *officially* sanctioned/annointed (=moderated/edited/controlled) maillist. .......doss/mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 07:16:23 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: HPB and Mormons Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970831121623.00e3f574@mail.eden.com> It is reported in HPB's biographies that during her travels in 1855 in the US, she travelled to Salt Lake City to meet the Mormons. In a recent coverage of Mormons in Time/Newsweek, (commemorating the travel of Mormons from Illinois to Salt Lake City) one of the things that I noticed was their belief in the second coming of Christ. In Key to Theosophy, HPB mentions about coming of Messenger from the Great White Lodge and I am wondering whether there was some connection between what she knew or was told by her Guardian and her trip to Salt Lake City and their belief in second coming. One thing worth noting was that the founder of Mormons was not a scholar or a PhD, just a common man (who was assasinated). Any thoughts? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:24:55 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The September THEOSOPHY WORLD is out Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970829152455.007ce4b0@imagiware.com> The September issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents were: "Introducing Studies in 'The Voice of the Silence'" by Dara Eklund "Studies in 'The Voice of the Silence'" by B.P. Wadia "Straight-Forward Speaking on Reexpressing Theosophy" by Dallas TenBroeck "Online Theosophical Quotation Service" by Gail Stevenson "Past and Future Do Not *Exist*" by Eldon Tucker "The Circle With the Center Dot" by Mark Kusek "Katherine Tingley as I Knew Her" by Boris de Zirkoff "The Edmonton T.S." by Ernest & Rogelle Pelletier "The Doctrine of Svabhava or Svabhavata and the Questions of Anatman and Shunyata", Part II, by David Reigle "Open Letter to Associates and Friends" by the United Lodge of Theosophists THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:55:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: alone & judgement Message-ID: <970831145516_1582532148@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-30 13:06:08 EDT, you write: >O.K. Chuck, pretend you are Solomon and these two women come to you for >judgement on who should have the baby (you know the story). I'd REALLY >like to hear your decision. And you can't copy Solomon's because that's >too easy and anyway an A&E program we got recently said Solomon had >hundreds of women in his harem and begat thousands of children and so, I >presume, your answer would be different as your environmental experience >is. Unless, oh my, your heredity isn't. Easy, I would have given the child to the woman who could pay me the most for it and had the other woman executed so she would not be a problem in the future. That way I could be sure that the child would be brought up in a home that could properly provide for it without being a burden to the kingdom. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:59:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: HPB and Mormons Message-ID: <970831145927_-1870975434@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-31 08:19:38 EDT, you write: > One thing worth noting was that the founder >of Mormons was not a scholar or a PhD, just a common man (who was >assasinated). > Something in common with the founders of most religions, which is why religions are such a useless mishmash. Anyone who founds a religion should be assassinated. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:43:51 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Krishnaji Message-ID: <3409C977.49FC@eden.com> Here is a msg I saw on listening-l. Some may be interested in it. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:05:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Valerie Lombard Subject: Outward Reflects the Inward Message-ID: There was a time when K. couldn't attend the board meetings of his foundation nor could he gain access to his original manuscripts that he hand-wrote (which were later published as books & tapes). That was when a Theosophist named Rajagoppel (commonly called Raja) was K.'s assistant. Nityananda, K.'s deceased brother and Raja were very close friends. So out of respect for his brother, K. appointed him to help him run his foundation. However, Raja was constantly belittling K. at the board meetings and objected to K.'s input concerning the foundation. Raja eventually didn't allow K. to attend the meetings at all. Raja would schedule so many talks in a year that it was taking its toll on his health to the point where K. had to cancel some of the talks, and Raja became furious at K. for it. Raja began scheduling talks without also providing K. with adequate lodging & meal provisions. So K. had to ask friends in the area for a place to stay and meals. But when he didn't know anyone in the area, he had to stay in unsanitary shacks and sometimes not eat in some countries. When K.'s friends learned of what Raja was doing, they appealed to him to use the foundation's funds to provide K. with basic lodging needs. Raja refused. So his friends looked after his needs until he was well enough to continue his public talks. But prior to K. founding that organization, he had disbanded the Order of the Star in the East. It was presented to him to head by the Theosophical Society, a sector headed by Charles Leadbeater and Annie Besant. They groomed him to become the next "world teacher" on behalf of Theosophy. K. made an astonishing announcement in 1929. He announced that he would no longer promote or support any organiza- tion that advocated any form of psychological "becoming". For, it was the very source of conflict, crime or warfare plaguing humanity. Shortly thereafter, he established a non-profit foundation for the purpose of educating people about the nature of the psyche and how it creates and perpetuates conflict, sorrow and unnecessary hardship. All of the book sell's revenue and other donations were suppose to be used for the purpose of making these explorations and observations available to those interested in investigating themselves and inquiring into the possibility of radically changing the way that they live. Because K. was kept out of the business affairs of his own organization, he was not aware of how the funds were being allocated. He would go to Raja and try to reason with him to let him know what was going on, but Raja continued to stone-wall him. K.'s friends advised him to legally regain access to his foundation by taking Raja to court. But K. considered Raja to be a long-time friend with misguided notions who would eventually come around and do the right thing. So K. waited patiently for several years for Raja to reconsider what he was doing before he would be forced to take drastic measures and sue Raja. But, Raja continued to secretly operate K.'s foundation. However, when K. learned that Raja had been misappropriating the funds by giving them to the Theosophical Society (helping them to promote psychological "becoming"), he reconsidered taking Raja to court. In Mary Lutyens' biography of K., "The Awakening Years", K. had said that he owed the people who bought his books and contributed money to his foundation a debt to set things right. Otherwise, he would be helping Raja and the Theosophical Society to defraud the public. For, K. would be using the funds in a manner that he said he wouldn't--to promote psychological "becoming". Therefore, K. sued Raja in order to retrieve his original handwritten manuscripts and the right to oversee his foundation to make sure the funds would be used for educational reasons regarding the ego's nature. When K. was called to testify in court, he calmly described the situation to the judge and answered all questions to clarify any vague issues. After all the concerned parties testified, the court found in K.'s favor. Throughout this grievous ordeal, K. had not condemned, opposed or ridiculed Raja. He attempted to reason with Raja to return his manuscripts (which were taken without K.'s knowledge or permission), to voluntarily return the (misappropriated) funds and to lift his band on his attending the board meetings. Raja responded by loudly protest- ing against K.'s requests, which others in the household could often overhear. So K. would leave and ponder what he would do regarding the situation. K. continued holding talks and publishing books that was a record of those talks. After the trial began, K. stopped trying to reason with Raja, who became increasingly consumed by fury, and left him alone until the suit was settled. K. also could not open additional schools until the suit was settled, as well. In the "Years of Awakening" book by Mary Lutyens, K. said that when Raja came to him to return his manuscripts, upon court order, Raja said that he only did it because he wanted K. to continue to promote and support the Theosophical Society's beliefs and ideals. [The old "ends justifies the means" speech.] K. then took his manuscripts in silence and watched Raja leave his presence for the last time. Events reveal how we relate to one another and also reflects if we are internally in conflict. The overall outcome of these ordeals also show if one, who purely observes themselves, will lose what is rightfully theirs. And it shows that as long as at least one person is facing conflict intelligently that bloodshed can be averted (that is especially the case for the individual who is *facing* unpleasant inward truths without resisting them). So physical security is then preserved/protected. Raja fought against K.'s new way of approaching life after dropping Theosophy (and all ideological pursuits) in an effort to coerce and persuade K. to return to the fold. K., on the other hand, did not tell Raja that he was obligated to help him run his newly established foundation (that had no ties to the Theosophical Society). He was free to leave at any time. But Raja wanted to exploit K.'s fund raising endeavors for Theosophical purposes and also to be highly regarded by the Theosophical elite, so he refused to leave K.'s foundation and also return K.'s work (that he published and collected money from the sells). K. observed the observer within as Raja said and did things to stimulate his ego (the desire to oppose his opposer by trading insults and innuendos) without resisting or running away from what he was feel- ing. So, without lashing out against the opposer, the freedom to watch this emotional movement unfold both inwardly and outwardly manifested in the form of K. being *free* to legally regain access to his work, attend board meetings and have supervision over the foundation's funds and their allocation. Transformation of the inner state of affairs determines the outward state of affairs. And that reveals what psychological conflict (opposition) produces and what understanding of it produces. There's no need to fight against, condemn or oppose that which is false (hostility) anymore than to pluck at dead leaves on a tree. For, the dying leaf will continue withering and dying on its own accord until it naturally falls away from the thriving portion of the tree [as was seen in the example of K. & Raja/the Theosophical Society]. In opposing the opposer, one gives energy and sustenance and preserves the petrified psychological inertia of the ego's cultivation of conflict. Without responding to opposition, aggression or ridicule with more of the same, it sooner or later will burn itself out like a nova that suddenly increases its light output tremendously and then fades away into its former obscurity. Valerie vlombard@lombard.cyberverse.com --------------21767B58200B-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:46:31 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: HPB and Mormons Message-ID: <3409CA17.55BF@eden.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-08-31 08:19:38 EDT, you write: > > > One thing worth noting was that the founder > >of Mormons was not a scholar or a PhD, just a common man (who was > >assasinated). > > > > > > Something in common with the founders of most religions, which is why > religions are such a useless mishmash. > > Anyone who founds a religion should be assassinated. > > Chuck the Heretic BTW, I believe Mormon founder was assasinated in Illinois. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:23:46 -0400 From: libidia Subject: Re: Today Message-ID: <3409EEF2.5567@globalserve.net> Doss, you said: > No need to carry anything. Computer Keyboard and theos-l is all that is > needed. > > Keyboard is mightier than sword! Finally, I agree. I have not been to bed in two days, finally, finding time and peace to explore the Internet. First thing I did was go to Alan's page then to Spiritweb. Of course I found all the stuff on theosophy and lots on Druids. Peter was thrilled to copy your book Alan and asked me why there were so many spellings of the word Kaballah. Turns out he was upstairs reading about it at exactly the time I was downloading your book! He will not ask you himself??!! All of this lead to having dinner with him, the first time we have spent time together in many months, and I invited him to talk and I would just listen. Usually he refuses to communicate, but he talked about theosophy with an animation I had not seen in him in many years. Very often he would say,"do you know what I mean by that?". Guess what guys, I did, and enough to be able to discuss the different "factions" within Theosophy. We took a break when we started to argue about hierarchical structure. I am struggling still with a great sadness that I think my husband may have found his path and it does not include me in the traditional sense as I have had my time, but then I remembered we started this relationship sitting on the roof of a friends house one particularly clear star filled night and shared our dreams of determination to follow a path of truth, although at that time we had no idea what truth meant and what a struggle it could be. And right at the moment I was thinking of these things, he shouted down to me to turn on the TV because Princess Di was dead. I have been dealing with that tragic event since then and am at peace with the change in me in just a few months. After the shock and sense of loss, I felt it in my "heart" and could join that feeling with my "head" that the body in that box covered with the royal standard we saw being taken "home" was just a shell. the spirit that was Di has passed on to the true home in the ultimate joy of the process of "life". I am not a royalist but I recognized Di along time ago as a relatively pure spirit dealing with the hyprocracy of thousands of years in her particular arena. Kinds of ties in with your comments Jaqi. The few glimpses of the 15 year old William were not enough to get a sense of whether that tall beauty of a body she bequeathed has the strength to seek the Grail and hence influence a new generation. Today, Peter is putting together the Sept issue of the TO Theosphy Group newsletter and starting the arrangements he has volunteered for some long-named visiting speaker and, finally, he goes in peace with my love. Every so often though I hope to remind him that we "masses" are on our own path and have a place too! Thanks guys. Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 01:19:02 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: In message <34079CEF.4D1C@globalserve.net>, libidium writes >> Oh! Oh! Oh! Arrrrrrr! Was it good for you .... ? >Sorry Alan, you'll have to do better than that. As I gave up my plan to >go to Manitoulin Island for my vacation due to lack of funds, I treated >myself to some music and just bought a Clannad CD. If you want me to >orgasm you'll have to sing like them singing "I Will Find You" from The >Last of the Mohicans. .. if you heard my singing, you's realise that I got to it AFTER the last of the Mohicans had died. Just play the CD and have a ball! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 01:28:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Masoretes Re: Hebrew Texts Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >One question, however. Do you put a lot of faith in the Masoretic Text? I don't put a lot of faith into *any* text. The Masoretic was faithful enough to the interpretation of the Jews *as they understood it* when the pointing system was devised. Scholars are aware however, that pointed or not, much of the text derives from earlier, and in some instances probably non-israelite sources >Or have you learned enough to discard the point system? I ignore it, but I do make use of the Interlinear Bible (4 vols, Baker) > Just curious. As >I said, I'm not so sure that the Masoretes scholars were perfect in their >translations... hmmm. Hmmmm indeed :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 01:16:51 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Dear Alan Message-ID: In message <34079CEF.4D1C@globalserve.net>, libidium writes >I'm setting up a bowl of spring water with the intent of seeing >visions. Good grief, I KNOW there's lots of kowledge associated with >these things and they CAN be harmful when used for the wrong reasons, >but they help release the loving spirit within, so what's the objection? No harm in seeing visions! The danger lies in misinterpretation ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:20:20 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The September THEOSOPHY WORLD is out Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970827152020.007cd3e0@imagiware.com> The September issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents were: "Introducing Studies in 'The Voice of the Silence'" by Dara Eklund "Studies in 'The Voice of the Silence'" by B.P. Wadia "Straight-Forward Speaking on Reexpressing Theosophy" by Dallas TenBroeck "Online Theosophical Quotation Service" by Gail Stevenson "Past and Future Do Not *Exist*" by Eldon Tucker "The Circle With the Center Dot" by Mark Kusek "Katherine Tingley as I Knew Her" by Boris de Zirkoff "The Edmonton T.S." by Ernest & Rogelle Pelletier "The Doctrine of Svabhava or Svabhavata and the Questions of Anatman and Shunyata", Part II, by David Reigle "Open Letter to Associates and Friends" by the United Lodge of Theosophists THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:02:59 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: HPB and Mormons Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > It is reported in HPB's biographies that during her travels in 1855 in the > US, she travelled to Salt Lake City to meet the Mormons. In a recent > coverage of Mormons in Time/Newsweek, (commemorating the travel of Mormons > from Illinois to Salt Lake City) one of the things that I noticed was their > belief in the second coming of Christ. > > In Key to Theosophy, HPB mentions about coming of Messenger from the Great > White Lodge and I am wondering whether there was some connection between > what she knew or was told by her Guardian and her trip to Salt Lake City and > their belief in second coming. One thing worth noting was that the founder > of Mormons was not a scholar or a PhD, just a common man (who was assasinated). > > Any thoughts? > > mkr I don't really have any ideas, but I do have a little info. Joseph Smith Jr., the Mormon founder/First Prophet, had his first vision in 1823, after he had read James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him", and acted under its direction. A messenger, named Moroni, was "sent by God" to tell Smith of two golden plates which were buried underneath a rock in Manchester, New York. After a series of visions, he went there, lifted up the stone, and found the items. Two golden tablets, two stones, and a breastplate. I don't know much else, but I do have the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price in my possession. I haven't gone too deeply into them, but if anyone has any questions about anything, I can try to look up the answers. In the PGP, there is a short autobiography of Smith. I may read that tonight. It was mainly written as a means of countering false accusations in much the same way that HPB had done in her introduction to the SD, and of which Sinnet wrote in the Occult book (I can't remember the title, but I know it had the word "Occult" in it.) Oh, and the two stones were called Urim and Thummim. Perhaps someone with a better knowledge of language than I could discover the meanings of these names. (They are probably in one of the mormon books, but, like I said, I haven't really read them yet.) --- Jaqi.