From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 20:10:05 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Nucleus of Brotherhood of Advancing Humanity Message-ID: My gosh! Things are hot this summer. I am talking about the weather here in Houston and the discussions on the various lists etc. I guess I am a failed idealist, a cynic or something, but I wonder like Rodney King why we can't all get along. Of course, if you get paid enough, you might bite someone's ear off , figuratively speaking (Tyson is not very advanced it seems) I have been around a while and it seems that the theosophical movement has become hopelessly (I hope not) mired in petty fighting and useless friction. Maybe the only thing that would bring it back into public consciousness would be someone like Krishamurti (but then he got out). If ever we needed a percipitation of a letter from the Masters, it is now. Maybe if we all look under our beds..... :) Namasate Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:31:39 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Brotherhood Message-ID: <33B8099B.446DEDDC@earthlink.net> Brotherhood...honesty..."theosophy" as a milieu is flowing beautifully today...(of course the organizations which use the word are generally not in this flow)...se la vi "God is Love & those who live in Love, live in God" ... *Northern Exposure* In Love & Truth, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:40:30 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Nucleus of Brotherhood of Advancing Humanity Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970630144030.007e6100@imagiware.com> >I guess I am a failed idealist, a cynic or something, but I wonder >like Rodney King why we can't all get along. We have two approaches to supporting what we find to be good. One is the "double negative" approach, fighting "evil", attacking people and things we find evil in some way (or *think* they're evil based upon our political/religious/metaphysical ideology). This approach can get nasty, especially when it's not clear that the other people are actually as black-hearted as we think, and when they take the same approach and identify us as the evil ones. The other approach is simpler, more direct, and usually more effective: the "single positive". We share the good that we've come to appreciate and leave others to clean up their own acts. >I have been around a while and it seems that the theosophical movement has >become hopelessly (I hope not) mired in petty fighting and useless friction. The biggest source of conflict may be in the multitude of conflicting definitions of Theosophy and the battling over what it really is. Finding flaws in historic figures is something of a side issue, and may at times be used to discredit what they wrote and therefore their variant of Theosophy, or used to discredit some claimed lineage of sponsorship by the Mahatmas. The petty fighting and useless friction is a negative byproduct, caused by human failings, like the smoke that surrounds the fire. There's sill something real and valuable going on, but it's not always apparent at first glance. >Maybe the only thing that would bring it back into public consciousness would >be someone like Krishnamurti (but then he got out). I don't think he ever really got out. His writings sound like the mirror opposite to the version of Theosophy that Leadbeater espoused. K. was anti-hierarchy, anti-teacher, reductionist, etc. The philosophy was something like a Jungian shadow of Leadbeater's approach. That's why there may be such an appeal to his writings in the Adyar T.S., where Leadbeater's books are published. I don't want to go into a review of Krishnamurti at this point. He's not someone, though, that would help out the work of the Masters in introducing some of their philosophy in Western thought -- at least as I see it. >If ever we needed a precipitation of a letter from the Masters, it is now. >Maybe if we all look under our beds..... :) You never know where that letter might have come from! Phenomena may impress people and sway beliefs, but the goal is not to gather believers nor to tell people what to do. There will always be people, though, eager to tell you to believe in them and to do what they tell you to do. Where, then, do we look? That's hard to write about in a few words and not be misleading. The simplest saying is "look within," but it's not a simple introverted self-reflection apart from activity in the world. And it's not simple karma yoga of good deeds in the world. In a way it's like finding a sense of color in life when everything's been color-blind before. It's an individual search, though, and just as hard in finding as it is in finding one's unique way of sharing it in the world. >Namasate >Keith Price -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:48:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Welcome to theos, Lynn Message-ID: <970630174755_679738990@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-30 12:43:26 EDT, Kym wrote: > Have you considered seeking a few sessions with a psychiatrist? Well, actually I have. I have bipolar (manic-depressive) disorder and you can guess which pole I was swinging from when I wrote my rant yesterday. Mannnnnnic all the way. ;-D But just because I'm crazy, doesn't mean I'm wrong. Hugs, Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:09:48 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Nucleus of Brotherhood of Advancing Humanity Message-ID: <33B82EAC.5595@micron.net> Keith wrote: > I have been around a while and it seems that the theosophical movement has > become hopelessly (I hope not) mired in petty fighting and useless friction. "Ye of little faith" comes to mind. There is order in chaos. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 16:17:30 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Welcome to theos, Lynn Message-ID: <33B8307A.3681@micron.net> Lynn wrote: > But just because I'm crazy, doesn't mean I'm > wrong. Go girl! :-) Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:21:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Welcome to theos, Lynn Message-ID: In message <33B8307A.3681@micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Lynn wrote: > >> But just because I'm crazy, doesn't mean I'm >> wrong. > > >Go girl! :-) > >Kym Maybe we could start a club? Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:27:09 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: Re: Nucleus of Brotherhood of Advancing Humanity Message-ID: <01BC85C8.26D9E9A0@rvik-ppp-ps-9.ismennt.is> >Keith: >I guess I am a failed idealist, a cynic or something, but I wonder >like Rodney King why we can't all get along. >Eldon: We have two approaches to supporting what we find to be good. One is the "double negative" approach, fighting "evil", Einar here: It reminds me: "You can't fight off the darkness with a stick! - Try some tender Light" >Eldon The other approach is simpler, more direct, and usually more effective: the "single positive". We share the good that we've come to appreciate and leave others to clean up their own acts. Einar: This should be the theosophical way, shouldn't it? If you want to improve the world, then start with yourself (and keep on until YOU are impeccably through with it!). >Keith >I have been around a while and it seems that the theosophical movement has >become hopelessly (I hope not) mired in petty fighting and useless friction. Einar: What do you mean by "the theosophical movement", Keath. Over the past decade or so I have been travelling around in the Theosophical World, visiting many Sections (including Olcott last year) and meeting with hundreds of theosophists from all over the world. What goes on here on this list does NOT in any way resemble the impressions that I have of the theosophical work around the world. In fact I can hardly imagine a worse Introduction to Theosopy for an "Innocent newcomer to theosophy" than the quarreling and arguing that has been the "rule" in the discussion lately. If going on in this way, I fear that those that like to discuss real theosophical subjects will leave, and the list will end up.... Well you tell me! >Eldon: The biggest source of conflict may be in the multitude of conflicting definitions of Theosophy and the battling over what it really is. Einar: Discussing "the multitude of conflicting definitions" is, as far as I see it, the real issue of theosophical study, and should be the core subject of this list IMHO, provided that we honor the "prime rule" of theosophical discussion - THE FREEDOM OF THOUGHT! If we acknowledge, every and all of us, that everyone is entitled to his own view on every THEOSOPHICAL subject, having different views should enrich the discussion, and make us all more tolerant and more open-minded. If we all would try to understand one another, instead of fighting each other, trying to win the battle at all cost, I would think that this list could survive and even fulfil its true goal, enhancing global theosophical work. >Eldon: Finding flaws in historic figures is something of a side issue, and may at times be used to discredit what they wrote and therefore their variant of Theosophy, or used to discredit some claimed lineage of sponsorship by the Mahatmas. The petty fighting and useless friction is a negative byproduct, caused by human failings, like the smoke that surrounds the fire. There's sill something real and valuable going on, but it's not always apparent at first glance. Einar: Jeah,,, Don't Judge so ye...... Folks, The past is gone - what remains is only in our own heads. Let's not fill our mind with gossip and judgements of the past. Let's keep to the subject, - theosphy - and how to live it NOW, and let go of the pesonalities of the past from HPB onwards. It is simply no concern of ours! >Keith: >Maybe the only thing that would bring it back into public consciousness would >be someone like Krishnamurti (but then he got out). >Eldon: I don't think he ever really got out. His writings sound like the mirror opposite to the version of Theosophy that Leadbeater espoused. K. was anti-hierarchy, anti-teacher, reductionist, etc. The philosophy was something like a Jungian shadow of Leadbeater's approach. That's why there may be such an appeal to his writings in the Adyar T.S., where Leadbeater's books are published. I don't want to go into a review of Krishnamurti at this point. He's not someone, though, that would help out the work of the Masters in introducing some of their philosophy in Western thought -- at least From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:52:50 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: Nucleus - a cutting edge! Message-ID: <01BC85F3.DDD4F700@rvik-ppp-ps-15.ismennt.is> Hi there folks. There seems to be a cutting edge here somwhere - cutting my messages, that is! Here is the remaining part - I hope. Namaste, Einar.............. -------------------------------------------- >>Keith: >>Maybe the only thing that would bring it back into public consciousness would >>be someone like Krishnamurti (but then he got out). > >>Eldon: >I don't think he ever really got out. His writings sound like the mirror >opposite to the version of Theosophy that Leadbeater espoused. K. was >anti-hierarchy, anti-teacher, reductionist, etc. The philosophy was something >like a Jungian shadow of Leadbeater's approach. That's why there may be >such an appeal to his writings in the Adyar T.S., where Leadbeater's books >are published. I don't want to go into a review of Krishnamurti at this >point. He's not someone, though, that would help out the work of the Masters >in introducing some of their philosophy in Western thought -- at least as >I see it. > >Einar: >As far as I see it, few if any have done the Theosophical Movement more favor than did Krishnamurti, when he dissolved the hystery of the messiah fever. He is my favorite "theosophist" defining theosophists as those that "live the theosphy", rather than those that pay dues to some organisation. This would place most of the best (or truest) theosophists outside of the socalled "theosophical movement" - But then this is strictly my personal view! > >>Keith: >>If ever we needed a precipitation of a letter from the Masters, it is now. >>Maybe if we all look under our beds..... :) > >>Eldon: >You never know where that letter might have come from! Phenomena may >impress people and sway beliefs, but the goal is not to gather believers >nor to tell people what to do. There will always be people, though, eager >to tell you to believe in them and to do what they tell you to do. Where, >then, do we look? That's hard to write about in a few words and not be >misleading. The simplest saying is "look within," but it's not a simple >introverted self-reflection apart from activity in the world. And it's >not simple karma yoga of good deeds in the world. In a way it's like >finding a sense of color in life when everything's been color-blind >before. It's an individual search, though, and just as hard in finding >as it is in finding one's unique way of sharing it in the world. > >Einar: >As spoken from my own heart! Thak you Eldon. Thank you Keith. > >>Namasate >>Keith Price >-- Eldon >-- Einar. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:27:15 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Reply to Annette Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970630212715.007c98d0@90.0.0.1> Annette: Your message contains a considerable number of points that might be replied to. I'll pick out a few. Any comments I make don't refer to you, or Peter, neither of whom I know, but are only made in reference to the issues and situations that you present. Apart from the discussion, I'd like to wish you, your kids, Peter, and everyone that anyone of you know, the best in dealing with your current changes in life, and a smooth path to a healthy, productive, fulfilling future, as you apparently go your separate ways. -- Eldon ---- One Type of Personality One type of personality that I've encountered in a few theosophical students might be called an "eternal youth". This type of person never grows up. He never learns to accept or set limits for himself. He cannot make, honor, or really understand committing to a financial budget or obligation. He cannot handle time, being responsible to attend regular meetings, do chores on a regular basis, meet time deadlines for commitments. In astrological terms he's someone with an heavily afflicted Saturn. I've known people with this disposition and seen them time after time set ambitious plans, get new people excited about participating in the projects, then subtly sabotaging them through neglect as they fail to follow through with the work, time, and money that they committed to at the start. They never understand why things go wrong, and blame their failures on the people who they know when no one steps in to bail them out. Things in the world do work the way they expect -- in devachan -- but not here on the physical plane. These people are not quite here, but are halfway in dreamland, and one can only hope that someday they'll finally wake up and realize that they're actually alive. An In-Between Space There are different rules and responsibilities that we face depending upon the type of life that we choose. An monastic life allows one to devote most of one's life to study and contemplation. An householder's life commits a good portion of one's time and money to the family. Spiritual progress is possible with either approach. We grow in capabilities as we use what we have. There's not a big Santa Claus looking to see if we're "naughty or nice" and determining our Christmas rewards. Our "reward" for being good, kind, loving, and fulfilling our duties of family, friendship, and general brotherhood with others is something more difficult to measure. Basically, both us and others grow from the experience. There's an "in-between space" that grows between us and the people that we know, and a different, higher type of consciousness arises in it, something that can not exist by itself in either person, when unrelated. This "space" is associated with the "buddhic principle", the aspect of consciousness that transcends the ego-creating activity of mind (manas). An Unique Step to Take Each of us has an unique "next step to take", and for some it may be to put away the books, religions, organizations, and external teachers, and enjoy the art and music of the simple life in the wilds of nature. For other people, a skilled teacher in a bona fide spiritual tradition may be just the key to a dramatically enriched life. Beware of Cults There's one indication of a false approach: any radical change in personality and beliefs, coupled with a desire to cut off contact with family and friends of the past -- this is one of the major indications of being subject to mind control in a cult. (See "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassen.) The general situation (although there may be a few exceptions) is that growth and change happen over years and lifetimes, and not immediately by a conversion experience followed by a profession of belief in ideas that one hasn't studied and understood. A cult is not limited to religion, but could be anything from a multilevel sales outfit to a political activist collective. What distinguishes it is in the use of mind control. In his book, Hassen gives a good checklist of questions to use to ask someone trying to recruit someone. The information is important to know because *anyone*, no matter how intelligent, can be recruited. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 12:31:22 PDT From: "Mika Perala" Subject: New York Meetings Message-ID: > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:50:19 -0400 > From: Bart Lidofsky > To: theos-l@vnet.net > Subject: Re: Suggestions > Message-ID: <33B79D7B.79CE@sprynet.com> > >Bart wrote: > > > Feel free to join the New York Lodge. We can use all the volunteers > we > > >can get. Alan: > Attending meetings would be kind of difficult from Cornwallm UK! but > thanks for the idea! I was there once about an year ago and I can recommend. Though it is quite a long trip from Helsinki too!! Maybe once a decade for me(my wallet sighed for relief hearing that...) 8) Bart, say thanks for me to the lady who made the food and gave some with me. Don`t remember her name but I guess she makes it often for the lodge meetings. Mika > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 10:28 AM > Subject: Theos-World Atlantis Hall of records Anyone have more info..apparently the first excavation has been successful! > One of Cayce's prophecies is that the Hall of Records will be found > underground between the Sphinx and Pyramid...anyone have the latest > info...I know they have done seismic surveys and confirmed underground > chambers...fascinating << they have excavated and found the tunnel that connects the sphinx and the great pryamid. they(egypt) have put a clamp on sight and refuse to excavate the room under the sphinxs. >> Keith: Dear Patrick and ALL: I just happened on the ART BELL WEB PAGE and there is an in depth report with pictures and diagrams concerning a secret excavation into what they are choosing to call the HALL OF RECORDS. I wish I were psychic or get in touch with my past lives with some accuracy, but I DO have the intuition that I was a scribe in Ancient Egypt. Manly Hall has some diagrams that seem to map certain rituals that were performed at Karnak and possible inside the Sphinx/Pyramids. The reasearch seems to point that AMON RA masturbated the universe into existence (this has been documented on several good TV programs). It isn't too our taste (except for CWL -that was cheap, but I couldn't resist). The Chrisitians and Victorian archeologists did their best to destroy the phalllic imagery and present Egypt in a light acceptable to the mores of the day (and we know what they were). Queen Victoria couldn't believe homosexuals really existed until Oscar Wilde, I guess. Anyway, check out the web page. Yes, it is Art Bell of Hale-Bopp companion fame, but he does a lot to get some of these strange things out in the public eye. I think we are about to lear a lot about the history of the Atlantis-Egypt connection, but the Egyptian government is not cooperating. I have had a premonition that some would like to recreate these rituals, but they wouldn't be a family values-theme park money making kind of thing, so Egypt (today) is trying to suppress the embarrassing high jinks of their anscestors, but I also believe that they were possibly in touch with true magick! Namaste Keith Price --RAA24849.867715957/upsmot03.msn.com-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 18:37:30 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Message-ID: The simplest saying is "look within," but it's not a simple introverted self-reflection apart from activity in the world. And it's not simple karma yoga of good deeds in the world. In a way it's like finding a sense of color in life when everything's been color-blind before. It's an individual search, though, and just as hard in finding as it is in finding one's unique way of sharing it in the world. >Namasate >Keith Price -- Eldon Keith: Yes. You have something here, of course. For get looking under the bed and look within for my true motives of studying theosophy and "getting into" the smoke and mirror of maya that surround the flame of truth of which we all have the spark within. But since you brought it up, isn't it strange that the Masters were talking to Blavatsky, Sinnent, Leadbetter, Bessant and Bailey and have fallen strangely silent. Have we fallen so low? Are we in a real Kali Yuga, that only Kalki Avatar could get our attention by bitting ears? They are around somewhere! Namaste Keith PRIce From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 18:41:34 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Welcome to Lynn Message-ID: Have you considered seeking a few sessions with a psychiatrist? Well, actually I have. I have bipolar (manic-depressive) disorder and you can guess which pole I was swinging from when I wrote my rant yesterday. Mannnnnnic all the way. ;-D But just because I'm crazy, doesn't mean I'm wrong. Hugs, Lynn Keith: Manic depression seems to be common with those on the spiritual path. Some would mistake it for kundalini awakening. I had a bad time last fall. There are a lot of people doing work and experimenting with support groups like THE SPIRITUAL EMERGENCE NETWORK of Christina Grof. etc. Namasate Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 11:46:02 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: Atlantis Hall of Records Message-ID: <33B93416.2ED39659@earthlink.net> Thanks for the info...Art Bells www page could you post the URL of this info http://, etc? Thanks, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 18:48:49 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: In my heart, I know your right .....but Message-ID: >Eldon: We have two approaches to supporting what we find to be good. One is the "double negative" approach, fighting "evil", Einar here: It reminds me: "You can't fight off the darkness with a stick! - Try some tender Light Keith: When I said I was a failed idealist, I meant we all want peace, love, tenderness, understanding, brotherhood, hope and all the virtues. But when you see what the Communist Chinese did to the Lamasaries in Tibet and how little the passive resistance of the Dali Lama accomplished there (maybe he was meant to come to the west). You can't help, but lock your doors and pull down the shades sometimes. I know in the long cycles it will come out in the karmic wash, but humanity seems to be reveling in harshness, ugliness, crudeness, warlike shouting for no reason. Blavatsky mentions at the end of the SD that there will be a lot of racial karma to be worked out. Are we lucky to live in such interesing times? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:10:05 -0400 From: joyce bays Subject: Brotherhood Message-ID: <01BC8630.F75DC0C0@ost86.capecod.net> Hello, I have been lurkeing in the background lately as nothing has moved me to respond untill now. As I said before I am new to the Theosophical Society, but not new to the concept. In all my research and learning I have come to believe that everyone is not at the same place on the path of enlightment, neither have we yet reached perfection. I feel this should also apply to the founders, Masters and leaders that have gone before us. Just because we can find some things to pick them apart for, does not make their teachings any less revelent. IMHO just as you would seperate the chaff from the wheet so one must search for the truths that lie within for themselves. When I joined the Socity I did not join thinking that I would find perfection amongest other members or past members, I just hoped for the felowship of other seekers like myself. I feel one should accept everyone for what they are and where they are on the path. Some may seem further in some aspects while you may seem further along in other aspects. When all is said and done each one of us will eventually end up in the same place . When we are perfect enough to return to the Absolute. IMHO Joyce Attachment Converted: "C:\TEMP\WINMAIL1.DAT" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 13:27:12 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: In my heart, I know your right .....but Message-ID: <33B94BF7.3755A7F4@earthlink.net> <> Yea verily...particularly given the recent earthquake and volcano activity :) Cheers, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:51:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Atlantis Hall of Records Message-ID: <970701165119_-460924320@emout03.mail.aol.com> Actually it was oral sex between Amen-Ra and his consort, whose name I can't remember at the moment. Chuck the Hereteic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:56:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: No Subject Message-ID: <970701165602_-2012496796@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-01 15:29:11 EDT, you write: > But since you brought it up, isn't it strange that the >Masters were talking to Blavatsky, Sinnent, Leadbetter, Bessant and Bailey >and >have fallen strangely silent. Have we fallen so low? After trying to talk to Leadbeater the Masters learned the value of silence. Something about pearls and swine, I think. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:58:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: No Subject Message-ID: <970701165723_-1428164251@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-01 15:29:11 EDT, you write: >Are we in a real Kali >Yuga, that only Kalki Avatar could get our attention by bitting ears? Mike Tyson is an Avatar??????????????????? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 17:40:51 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: New York Meetings Message-ID: <33B97963.7C5A@sprynet.com> Mika Perala wrote: >Bart wrote: > > > > Feel free to join the New York Lodge. We can use all the > volunteers > > we > > > >can get. > > Alan: > > > Attending meetings would be kind of difficult from Cornwallm UK! but > > thanks for the idea! > > I was there once about an year ago and I can recommend. Though it is quite > a long trip from Helsinki too!! Maybe once a decade for me(my wallet sighed > for relief hearing that...) 8) > > Bart, say thanks for me to the lady who made the food and gave some with > me. Don`t remember her name but I guess she makes it often for the lodge > meetings. That was Erachie Brown, who recently got elected to our Board of Directors. She was also sent to the most recent Olcott Experience weekend. I will send your regards. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 16:45:41 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Trust Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970701214541.00e55b3c@mail.eden.com> At 12:10 PM 5/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> PS: Did you get any more information from Gomes on Krishnamurti Trust >> litigation matters? Just curious. > > He keeps on promising to write it up for me, but he is extremely busy >on his new book, plus his full-time job here. > > Bart > Hi, Bart: Any progress by Gomes? Am interested to know what he discovers that is new in Krishnamurti Trust litigation matters. Anything he finds could be very useful and interesting. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 22:03:07 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Message-ID: Gail and Dara: . There needs to be a genuine ability to forget old antipathies such as the Leadbeater/Besant criticisms; the Krishnamurti dissensions; the Judge/Besant hiatus; the notion that Blavatsky was the only 'giver of wisdom'--and so on. Eldon Tucker: There are some assumptions implicit in it, though, assumptions that are not always aggreed to by everyone joining our theosophical groups. Some of the assumptions are: * There are Mahatmas. They are genuinely more evolved than the typical seeker or person we might run across in our everyday lives. * They have an occult hierarchy, with a lineage of teachings or knowledge passed down from one generation of Adepts to the next. * Blavatsky was a bona fide representative of them, and accurately presented some of their knowledge. * The material presented by Blavatsky was as least in part literally true. It did not consist completely of blinds, metaphor, and veils. * The materials presented were dealing with the timeless philosophy, and not with now out-of-date references to the science of the 1800's. * There is something special or precious about the doctrines, something that makes it a public service for us to learn and share it with others. Keith: I am not going to make personal attacks on anyone living or dead anymore, except maybe a joke or two. I am not trying to attack Theosophical fundamentalists or new age let's tolerate everyone's opinion whether it makes sense or not. But I do think a new period of inclusiveness, a kind of rainbow coalition of theosophical organizations is in order. Has anyone thought of a Parliment of Theosohpical Groups, now that will curl your hair or straighten things out? I am not sure which, but I really can't believe that we can include the general public into the ANCIENT WISDOM if we INSIST that Blavatsky had a corner on the market! Namaste Keith Price --LAA03131.867781673/upsmot01.msn.com-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 22:15:51 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Sex Magick Egyptian and Victorian Message-ID: A BAIN: The theories of sexual magic can be summarized: (1) Man possesses hidden powers (often identified with the subconscious mind) which give him greater perception, raise him to states of ecstasy, expand his consciousness, stimulate increased physical, emotional and mental powers; (2) These powers lie 'buried' beneath some 'barrier' which conscious control cannot penetrate, but which can be overcome by a variety of techniques, including to some extent drugs and alcohol; (3) This 'barrier' can be penetrated through heightening the physical, emotional and intellectual focus of the body by sexual stimulation', leading to a 'break through' at the point of orgasm, at which energy is released. Techniques employed are heterosexual, homosexual or autosexual. In the case of autosexual techniques, the aim was usually to heighten the consciousness of the magician and focus and stimulate his magical power, culminating in the release of energy at the point of orgasm. The English artist and magician Austin Spare employed a technique of 'magical masturbation' as a means of concentrating, releasing and directing magical energy. Aleister Crowley also employed magical sexual techniques - of every imaginable variety - in his occult work, and in the Ordo Templi Orientis, of which he was a member, 'magical masturbation' was taught as the technique of one of the higher Keith: I mentioned that much of the research into the rituals of ancient Egypt suggested the ritual re-enactment of the beginning of the manifested universe when the Sun-Energy Principle manifested as a physical being and was without a bride, but masturbated the universe into a curd like "starry" existence and then the other gods were manifested out of this. The priests at Karnak re-enacted this ritual. It seems to be less repulsive than ritual cannabilism of the Mayans, Aztecs etc. so let's not be too judgemental. After all drinking the blood of Jesus Christ is pretty much vampirism no matter how you look at it. There is no doubt that power energies are manifested in sexual acts. Supposedly the incarnating soul searches for his new mother and father while they are in flagrante delicto (or whatever the Latin is). Feeling trishna and tanha the new/old saw is drawn back into meaty incarnation because of the ecstasies of his parents. I have found that all this is well and good, but like anything there is hell to pay for excessive, selfish and unjust use of these energies. The jails, not the temples are full of gang members who are drug and sex addicts and become slaves to beings that use them. The brothers of the shadow are a lot easier to reach than the Masters of purity, wouldn't you say? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 16:07:56 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: Sex Magick Egyptian and Victorian Message-ID: <33B97188.53F79A49@earthlink.net> <> Amen Brother! Shanti, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 23:30:37 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Windata attachment - Techno problems Message-ID: I got an attachment with theos-l 115. I tried to open it. Windows 95 pulled out a video and audio player, but I got error messages. Am I the only one in the dark? Also I can't seem to get posts to go to theos-talk, so I send them to theos-l. If anyone minds, please e-mail me privately. I will try to stop this and get it all going right. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 17:07:23 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: The Books Online Message-ID: <33B97F6D.73D519C8@earthlink.net> Recently some new issues have come up of which you may be aware: 1. It should become possible shortly to publish all of the books online or via email soon...do you in Russia have access to a full set of the Bailey books or a full set of the Agni Yoga (N./ Roerich) books, I am wondering this as shipping is difficult and I would like to insure that copies are available everywhere as we are heading toward 2. the y2k (year 2000) software issue...which you may be aware of in which many programs and micro-processors are set with "00" instead of "2000" for dates and this will result in many difficulties and will bring most systems to halt (on the web see http://www.garynorth.com ). I hope that we can distribute the Teaching on as wide a basis as possible before this. Shanti, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:52:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Where have all the Masters gone? Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >But since you brought it up, isn't it strange that the >Masters were talking to Blavatsky, Sinnent, Leadbetter, Bessant and Bailey and >have fallen strangely silent. Have we fallen so low? It isn't strange at all when we realise that all the above-named are now dead. If there are any "Masters" and there were to speak through any one of us on this list (say) and those concerned passed on the good news - who would believe them? I am certain that more than one latter-day theosophist has had communication of this kind, including myself. I am equally certain that others will tell us we are deluded, or on an ego- trip, or peddling our own "version" of the ancient wisdom, or .... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:05:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Atlantis Hall of Records Message-ID: In message <970701165119_-460924320@emout03.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Actually it was oral sex between Amen-Ra and his consort, whose name I can't >remember at the moment. > >Chuck the Hereteic They all look the same in thse dark tunnels, eh, Chuck? Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:12:04 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Market stalls Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Has anyone >thought of a Parliment of Theosohpical Groups, now that will curl your hair or > >straighten things out? I am not sure which, but I really can't believe that >we can include the general public into the ANCIENT WISDOM if we INSIST that >Blavatsky had a corner on the market! Maybe it is fair to say that Blavatsky had a stall *IN* the market? So, later did others - Steiner, Bailey, Tingley, Besant, Leadbeater, Ouspensky, Gurdjieff and others. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:39:42 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Advancing Humanity Message-ID: In message <01BC85C8.26D9E9A0@rvik-ppp-ps-9.ismennt.is>, "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." writes > > >>Eldon: >The biggest source of conflict may be in the multitude of conflicting >definitions of Theosophy and the battling over what it really is. > >Einar: >Discussing "the multitude of conflicting definitions" is, as far as I see it, >the real issue of theosophical study, and should be the core subject of this >list IMHO, provided that we honor the "prime rule" of theosophical discussion - >THE FREEDOM OF THOUGHT! >If we acknowledge, every and all of us, that everyone is entitled to his own >view on every THEOSOPHICAL subject, having different views should enrich the >discussion, and make us all more tolerant and more open-minded. If we all would >try to understand one another, instead of fighting each other, trying to win the >battle at all cost, I would think that this list could survive and even fulfil >its true goal, enhancing global theosophical work. Alan: While I agree that discussing conflicting definitions is necessary to the undersanding of theosophical study, I do not see how it is the *core subject* of this list, which is by its own definition intended for general discussion of theosophical interest. > >>Eldon: >Finding >flaws in historic figures is something of a side issue, and may at times >be used to discredit what they wrote and therefore their variant of >Theosophy, or used to discredit some claimed lineage of sponsorship by >the Mahatmas. The petty fighting and useless friction is a negative byproduct, >caused by human failings, like the smoke that surrounds the fire. There's >sill something real and valuable going on, but it's not always apparent >at first glance. Alan: It is hardly a *side* issue if some of the things they wrote were untrue; it is hardly a *side* issue if the claims made by their historical (!) successors concerning their seeming squeaky clean purity and virtue are show by *historical fact* to be unreliable to say the least. Those who wish to call it "petty fighting" and a "negative byproduct" when unfortunate historical *facts* are presented only serve to fuel the suspicion that theosophists are not as interested in truth as they claim. > >Einar: >Jeah,,, Don't Judge so ye...... Folks, The past is gone - what remains is only >in our own heads. Let's not fill our mind with gossip and judgements of the >past. Let's keep to the subject, - theosphy - and how to live it NOW, and let go >of the pesonalities of the past from HPB onwards. It is simply no concern of >ours! The Holocaust happened. It affected the history of the world, and the "now" that we live in is better understood by knowledge of history. HPB and others began a theosophical "enlightenment" - and the same is true of them and their work. To say that such things are no concern of ours is to bury our heads, ostrich-like, in the sand. > Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 21:38:57 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: <33B9B131.D3@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message , JOSEPH PRICE > writes > >Has anyone > >thought of a Parliment of Theosohpical Groups, now that will curl your hair or > > > >straighten things out? I am not sure which, but I really can't believe that > >we can include the general public into the ANCIENT WISDOM if we INSIST that > >Blavatsky had a corner on the market! > > Maybe it is fair to say that Blavatsky had a stall *IN* the market? So, > later did others - Steiner, Bailey, Tingley, Besant, Leadbeater, > Ouspensky, Gurdjieff and others. Once again, are you going to include Elizabeth Claire Prophet? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 01:03:36 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Brotherhood Message-ID: In message <01BC8630.F75DC0C0@ost86.capecod.net>, joyce bays writes >In all my research and learning I have come to believe that everyone is not >at the same place on the path of enlightment, neither have we yet reached >perfection. I feel this should also apply to the founders, Masters and >leaders that have gone before us. Just because we can find some things to >pick them apart for, does not make their teachings any less revelent. IMHO >just as you would seperate the chaff from the wheet so one must search for >the truths that lie within for themselves. Thanks for your sound common sense! Those who went before us - just as we do - made mistakes. Some of believe we should aknowledge them *and point them out* when they are discovered. Unfortunately, for some theosophists our forerunners have acquired an almost "holy" and "infallible" patina which historical enquiry does not justify. Such attitudes do the theosophical quest great harm, IMHO. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 02:05:05 -0500 From: Terry Briscoe Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Patrick wrote: ... I suppose we can note and agree that a few fringe fanatics like the Nazis or most liberals do not believe in basic human rights but in coercively orchestrating society to make themselves feel good...and these groups are separate from consitutional "militias" ... Kym wrote: No, Patrick, we cannot agree. Liberals are not like Nazis, nor do they think or believe as the Nazis did/do. The Holocaust really is just a matter of convenient comparison to you, isn't it? Just throw it around with no real thought of its meaning. . . (Right On, Kym) tb I wrote: The very idea of a neo-fascist 'theosophist' makes me cringe. "Patrick," (why is your nom de plume in quotes?), this isn't a political forum.. there are too many polit-focus groups out there to resort to radical unthoughtout polemics here, the (a) safe haven of unwashed tender strivers. Are you also a 'constitutional gun (rights) lover'? I'm embarrassed to be so confrontational (so be it). As G dePurucker says, "Let Love Prevail, damnit!" -Tere' %^)> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 03:52:23 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Theosophy & Politics (reply no subject post) Message-ID: <33BA16C3.73F4E327@earthlink.net> A recent post with no subject took a phrase out of context regarding certain political groups...to be clear the fundamental principle involved is whether inalienable rights are accepted or not...the acceptance of such is central to theosophical ethics. The practical relation of theosophy & politics revolves around the encouragement and protection of this ethical position. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 07:10:11 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970702121011.00dd432c@mail.eden.com> At 09:40 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> In message , JOSEPH PRICE >> writes >> >Has anyone >> >thought of a Parliment of Theosohpical Groups, now that will curl your hair or >> > >> >straighten things out? I am not sure which, but I really can't believe that >> >we can include the general public into the ANCIENT WISDOM if we INSIST that >> >Blavatsky had a corner on the market! >> >> Maybe it is fair to say that Blavatsky had a stall *IN* the market? So, >> later did others - Steiner, Bailey, Tingley, Besant, Leadbeater, >> Ouspensky, Gurdjieff and others. > > Once again, are you going to include Elizabeth Claire Prophet? > > Bart Lidofsky > If Prophet's writings appeal to someone, so be it. Every view point however unacceptable to one's personal views should be tolerated. Tolerance is what brings people together and we need all the help we can get from anyone and everyone to get Theosophy to every man, woman and child. YMDMV ....................doss.............................. There is no religion higher than truth............. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 07:15:49 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Where have all the Masters gone? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970702121549.00ddeb70@mail.eden.com> At 08:36 PM 7/1/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message , JOSEPH PRICE > writes >>But since you brought it up, isn't it strange that the >>Masters were talking to Blavatsky, Sinnent, Leadbetter, Bessant and Bailey and >>have fallen strangely silent. Have we fallen so low? > >It isn't strange at all when we realise that all the above-named are now >dead. If there are any "Masters" and there were to speak through any >one of us on this list (say) and those concerned passed on the good news >- who would believe them? I am certain that more than one latter-day >theosophist has had communication of this kind, including myself. I am >equally certain that others will tell us we are deluded, or on an ego- >trip, or peddling our own "version" of the ancient wisdom, or .... > >Alan >--------- Well said. It is quite likely that the Masters are talking to many of us even though many time we think some of the ideas are our own and may not be even aware that they were put into our consciousness and brain. I have used as simple test. If an idea is going to help Humanity, then it is something worthwhile and in all probability the inspiration is coming on from a Higher Source. YMDMV From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 07:28:20 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970702122820.00ddfbbc@mail.eden.com> At 06:09 PM 7/1/97 -0400, JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > > >---------- >From: Mail Delivery Subsystem >Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 18:25:20 UT >From: "JOSEPH PRICE" >Message-Id: > >Gail and Dara: > >. There needs to be a genuine ability to forget old antipathies such >as the Leadbeater/Besant criticisms; the Krishnamurti dissensions; the >Judge/Besant hiatus; the notion that Blavatsky was the only 'giver of >wisdom'--and so on. > >Eldon Tucker: > >There are some assumptions >implicit in it, though, assumptions that are not always aggreed to by >everyone joining our theosophical groups. > >Some of the assumptions are: > >* There are Mahatmas. They are genuinely more evolved than the typical > seeker or person we might run across in our everyday lives. > >* They have an occult hierarchy, with a lineage of teachings or knowledge > passed down from one generation of Adepts to the next. > >* Blavatsky was a bona fide representative of them, and accurately > presented some of their knowledge. > >* The material presented by Blavatsky was as least in part literally true. > It did not consist completely of blinds, metaphor, and veils. > >* The materials presented were dealing with the timeless philosophy, and > not with now out-of-date references to the science of the 1800's. > >* There is something special or precious about the doctrines, something > that makes it a public service for us to learn and share it with others. > >Keith: > >I am not going to make personal attacks on anyone living or dead anymore, >except maybe a joke or two. I am not trying to attack Theosophical >fundamentalists or new age let's tolerate everyone's opinion whether it makes >sense or not. But I do think a new period of inclusiveness, a kind of >rainbow coalition of theosophical organizations is in order. Has anyone >thought of a Parliment of Theosohpical Groups, now that will curl your hair or > >straighten things out? I am not sure which, but I really can't believe that >we can include the general public into the ANCIENT WISDOM if we INSIST that >Blavatsky had a corner on the market! > >Namaste >Keith Price > MKR: A Parliament of Theosophical Groups is possible. This is likely to happen only outside of established organizations. This is due to the built-in problems of the personal agendas and ambitions (spiritual or temporal) and axes to grind that generally pervades organizations of all types. Why should we think that human beings are going to change overnight? Atleast this is IMHO. ..............................doss........................................ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 07:03:40 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Theosophy and Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970702120340.006e1780@mail.eden.com> Internet is here to stay. Like what printing did to for dissemination of knowledge and information, Internet is the next step -- a steep one and with a more far reaching effect and range of coverage. There have been many suggestions on how all the existing Theosophical Organizations (including those some of us may think are not true or legitimate ones) can all work together in the area of dissemination of information and avoid duplication. The most fundamental issue that affects every T/theosophical organization is the fact that they have been used to operate in isolation of every other organization and are used to have total control of the medium of communication used to communicate with its followers or adherents or member or by whatever other name you may want to call. The corner stone of all of the communication is as simple one -- Control, Control, Control. When the organizational interface comes into play in decision making, those elected or appointed or inherited leaders who have gotten used to the power inherent in such control over the medium have a built-in tendency to use Internet medium and want to retain the control that is possible with traditional print medium. This shows up in various ways. Eg. censored/moderated mail lists, not using e-mail to communicate, failing to admit the presence of other organizations. Each one of us can identify many specific examples of how this shows up. But there is a fundamental problem. Internet is a medium not like anything we have ever seen before. Control and Internet does not work together at all. Even control by economic or legal threat does not work in Internet. Let me cite the example of the site which had information on the problems with Intel's new chips. Intel with its enormous financial and legal muzzle tried to use it to shut it down. Guess what happened. The site was moved from the USA to UK and then to Germany -- all this in the course of less than 48 hours. Soon there was coverage of this story in all the other media and Intel not willing to face the bad PR, dared not to try any other tactic. The website is alive and well and thriving. There is the other problem of inadvertently losing followers to other organizations. Say organization X in its WWW has a link to organization Y, org X may want to protect its turf and does not want anyone visiting its site to know about Y, being afraid that some visitors may find presentation of Y more appealing than that of X. So this self-preservation prevents organizations trying to work together. So unless there is fundamental change in the attitude of the elected/appointed/heriditary leaders towards other organizations, I do not see much of any progress in the area of trying to work together. This fundamental problem presents a great opportunity to individual entrepreneurs in the cyberspace. These individuals with foresight are the pioneers whose primary motivation is from their hearts and is to help Theosophy without bias towards one organization or the other, are able to provide a clearinghouse of information and links to other sources of Theosophy and related materials. We have already seen examples of successes of such actions. We have the theos-xxxxx maillists set up by John E Mead three years ago and the wonderful website of Rudy Don which is highly professional and with a lot of links and info. All of these efforts are at no big dollar cost to anyone except the labor of love of individuals concerned. This pattern is seen in other areas where dissemination of information to everyone in the cyberworld for free is the primary motivating factor behind such efforts. (BTW I built this Cyrix Chip based computer after using a website which had the information to give me confidence to go ahead and build the machine and there is also the Krishnamurti maillist run by an individual from Germany.) Whether any T/theosophical organizations or their leaders participate or support (or oppose) such pioneering activities do not really matter. It is the individual users, you and me, who make use of these resources make them succeed and make them useful. In the light of the above, I am very skeptical if anything is going to come out of any ideas of unity among T/theosophical organizations. Each one likely to keep going in their own way protecting their own turf, more newer ones forming as offshoots of the current ones (it is very easy for newer ones to be formed on cyberspace), history repeating itself, like the thousands of Christian denominations and sects we have, all of them owing allegiance to our Lord Christ. These are my observations. Your mileage and direction may vary. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 07:31:12 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Theosophy and Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970702123112.00dee2d0@mail.eden.com> >>>>>>> Theosophy and Internet <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Internet is here to stay. Like what printing did to for dissemination of knowledge and information, Internet is the next step -- a steep one and with a more far reaching effect and range of coverage. There have been many suggestions on how all the existing Theosophical Organizations (including those some of us may think are not true or legitimate ones) can all work together in the area of dissemination of information and avoid duplication. The most fundamental issue that affects every T/theosophical organization is the fact that they have been used to operate in isolation of every other organization and are used to have total control of the medium of communication used to communicate with its followers or adherents or member or by whatever other name you may want to call. The corner stone of all of the communication is as simple one -- Control, Control, Control. When the organizational interface comes into play in decision making, those elected or appointed or inherited leaders who have gotten used to the power inherent in such control over the medium have a built-in tendency to use Internet medium and want to retain the control that is possible with traditional print medium. This shows up in various ways. Eg. censored/moderated mail lists, not using e-mail to communicate, failing to admit the presence of other organizations. Each one of us can identify many specific examples of how this shows up. But there is a fundamental problem. Internet is a medium not like anything we have ever seen before. Control and Internet does not work together at all. Even control by economic or legal threat does not work in Internet. Let me cite the example of the site which had information on the problems with Intel's new chips. Intel with its enormous financial and legal muzzle tried to use it to shut it down. Guess what happened. The site was moved from the USA to UK and then to Germany -- all this in the course of less than 48 hours. Soon there was coverage of this story in all the other media and Intel not willing to face the bad PR, dared not to try any other tactic. The website is alive and well and thriving. There is the other problem of inadvertently losing followers to other organizations. Say organization X in its WWW has a link to organization Y, org X may want to protect its turf and does not want anyone visiting its site to know about Y, being afraid that some visitors may find presentation of Y more appealing than that of X. So this self-preservation prevents organizations trying to work together. So unless there is fundamental change in the attitude of the elected/appointed/heriditary leaders towards other organizations, I do not see much of any progress in the area of trying to work together. This fundamental problem presents a great opportunity to individual entrepreneurs in the cyberspace. These individuals with foresight are the pioneers whose primary motivation is from their hearts and is to help Theosophy without bias towards one organization or the other, are able to provide a clearinghouse of information and links to other sources of Theosophy and related materials. We have already seen examples of successes of such actions. We have the theos-xxxxx maillists set up by John E Mead three years ago and the wonderful website of Rudy Don which is highly professional and with a lot of links and info. All of these efforts are at no big dollar cost to anyone except the labor of love of individuals concerned. This pattern is seen in other areas where dissemination of information to everyone in the cyberworld for free is the primary motivating factor behind such efforts. (BTW I built this Cyrix Chip based computer after using a website which had the information to give me confidence to go ahead and build the machine and there is also the Krishnamurti maillist run by an individual from Germany.) Whether any T/theosophical organizations or their leaders participate or support (or oppose) such pioneering activities do not really matter. It is the individual users, you and me, who make use of these resources make them succeed and make them useful. In the light of the above, I am very skeptical if anything is going to come out of any ideas of unity among T/theosophical organizations. Each one likely to keep going in their own way protecting their own turf, more newer ones forming as offshoots of the current ones (it is very easy for newer ones to be formed on cyberspace), history repeating itself, like the thousands of Christian denominations and sects we have, all of them owing allegiance to our Lord Christ. These are my observations. Your mileage and direction may vary. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 9:16:58 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Delusions of influence Message-ID: <199707021316.JAA02578@leo.vsla.edu> Reading people's speculations about being guided by the Masters makes me wanna... protest. Since we don't even know for sure when our higher self is guiding us, what point is there in imagining someone else doing so? The idea of near-omniscient beings lurking around planting thoughts in chosen people's heads is IMO weird and disgusting. The Mahatma letters say specifically that this is not their method; they "release enlightening influences" in general and those who can pick up on them do so. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 07:42:59 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: Delusions of influence Message-ID: <33BA4C8F.733C4283@earthlink.net> Agree whole-heartedly! > Reading people's speculations about being guided by the Masters > makes me wanna... protest. Since we don't even know for sure > when our higher self is guiding us, what point is there in > imagining someone else doing so? The idea of near-omniscient > beings lurking around planting thoughts in chosen people's heads is > IMO weird and disgusting. The Mahatma letters say specifically > that this is not their method; they "release enlightening > influences" in general and those who can pick up on them do so. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 09:41:15 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Delusions of influence Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970702144115.00dd0d40@mail.eden.com> At 09:18 AM 7/2/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > >Reading people's speculations about being guided by the Masters >makes me wanna... protest. Since we don't even know for sure >when our higher self is guiding us, what point is there in >imagining someone else doing so? The idea of near-omniscient >beings lurking around planting thoughts in chosen people's heads is >IMO weird and disgusting. The Mahatma letters say specifically >that this is not their method; they "release enlightening >influences" in general and those who can pick up on them do so. > > I guess different strokes for different people. No matter what one's ideas about any of these, let us all keep our focus on betterment of Humanity. .................................doss................................... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:18:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Kundalini and bipolar disorder ;-D Message-ID: <970702121805_947513840@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-01 19:26:03 EDT, you write: > Keith: Manic depression seems to be common with those on the spiritual path. > > Some would mistake it for kundalini awakening. I had a bad time last fall. Hi Keith, Without your having said more than that you had a bad time last fall, I can sense enough of the hell you've undergone underlying that remark to say a heartfelt, I understand! And offer you a big hug!!!!! To me, the awakening of kundalini is the event of energy rising from the chakra at the base of the spine to the thousand-petal lotus chakra at the crown of the head and the resulting destruction of the causal body. If that's what you meant by the association that some folks make with bipolar disorder, then I agree that it is a mistaken relationship. I've never mistaken it for kundalini awakening because I'm always wondering what I've done "wrong" to end up with such an aberrant neurochemistry. IMHO, by the time one is far enough along to awaken kundalini, they've fully mastered the wielding of energy/matter in the three worlds, no longer have the need to reincarnate, and certainly wouldn't suffer from bipolar disorder. ;-D However, I can see how it could be mistaken for that. More than any of the other major psychiatric disorders, manic-depression is associated with a high degree of creativity and genius because of the unusual number of artists, authors, and other famous people who have it. Also, at least in my experience, it is like being in contact with an extremely intense "firey energy" within you (which fuels the mania) that demands expression--thus the high correlation of creativity associated with it IMHO. It does compel me to write, do artwork, compose music, etc. Dr. Jamison, a manic-depressive psychologist, titled one of her books "Touched by Fire" for good reason (as did a recent Discovery Channel segment on this disease). It could indeed be associated with stimulation of various chakras, possibly the throat chakra (associated with creativity) in this particular case. But just because a chakra is being stimulated or is in the process of unfoldment, it doesn't mean that all is well. There can be imbalances and problems in the interplay of energies or overstimulation of a chakra, IMHO, that manifest as psychiatric disorders and we end up spending an incarnation here and there working to balance the energies however unconsciously. (I was alluding to this somewhat when I was saying in a post about CWL that his behavior could have been the result of energy imbalances, an overstimulated chakra, perhaps. This does not excuse the behavior, but is my search for compassion and understanding about these things.) It makes for a very peculiar, dramatic, incarnation. ;-D I mean, when I leave this one, as I hurl through the tunnel toward the Devachan, I'll look back, laugh, and say, "It's been real!" ;-D > > There are a lot of people doing work and experimenting with support groups > like THE SPIRITUAL EMERGENCE NETWORK of Christina Grof. etc. Fascinating!!! Thanks for the information. > Namasate At the risk of sounding woefully ignorant, what does Namasate mean? I've always been dying to know. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 19:10:37 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Ancient Axioms for an Age of Virtual Spirituality Message-ID: Aquarian Axioms 1. Life is built up by the sacrifice of the individual to the whole. Each cell in the living body must sacrifice itself to the perfection of the whole; when it is otherwise, disease and death enforce the lesson. 2. Harmony is the law of life, discord its shadow; whence springs suffering, the teacher, the awakener of consciousness. 3. To obtain the knowledge of Self is a greater achievement than to command the elements or to know the future. 4. Self-knowledge is unattainable by what men usually call 'self-analysis.' It is not reached by reasoning or any brain- powers. 5. Real Self-knowledge is the awakening to consciousness of the divine nature of man. 6. Will creates intelligently; Desire blindly and unconsciously. 7. When desire is for the purely abstract -- when it has lost all trace or tinge of 'self' -- then it has become pure. 8. Spirituality is not what we understand by the words 'virtue' and 'goodness.' It is the power of perceiving formless, spiritual essences. 9. The discovery and right use of the true essence of Being -- this is the whole secret of life. 10. You cannot build a Temple of Truth by hammering dead stones. Its foundations must precipitate themselves like crystals from the solution of Life. (Ancient axioms from a compilation made by H.P. Blavatsky in 1890) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Theosophy Lodge Online Homepage] [ Keith Price: This is the clearest exposition of the fact that Blavatsky never meant to focus on the Eye Doctrines, but the Heart Doctrines. The senses encode maya into useful data for negotiating this treacherous and beautiful thing we call the world, the earth. The brain analyses and gives meaning to the data using templates from past lives, animal instincts, learned philosophies and sciences of the present incarnation and intuitions from the Master within - the Higher Self. I wonder if death would be like plunging into a sea of computer like code, bland HTML without color or form. Our brains provide the reality browsers to get the graphics and interactivity we enjoy as beauty and love. Can we download an improved browser from the Master to really read and organize the code, so we can see Being, Enter the Temple of Truth, and percipitate the crystals of the Diamond Body the Masters possess? I think many would say like Jung: (to rephrase) I don't need to be told, I have been there! And as for Unity: this is the natural Will, not desire, once one has been there. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 2 Jul 97 19:19:02 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Message-ID: HPB from Key to Theosophy: THEOSOPHIST. Let me briefly remind you what these principles are -- universal Unity and Causation; Human Solidarity; the Law of Karma; Re-incarnation. These are the four links of the golden chain which should bind humanity into one family, one universal Brotherhood. Keith: If one really believes in reincarnation, one would be sure to link together rather than continue selfish friction. Chances are we will meet again, don't know where, don't know when ... Politics makes strange bedfellows, theosophy should make strange love! Namsate Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:35:18 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Re: THEOS-BUDS digest 237 Message-ID: <199707022054.QAA24542@ultra1.dreamscape.com> to Anette Rivington Dear Anette, There are 2 things i'd like to tell you. The kind of theosophists you describe are a mockery of what Theosophy is supposed to be. The way you describe your own philosophy is much more like mine, and I consider myself a real good Theosophist. I know this is hard, because I've been that way myself, but why do you tolerate this kind of treatment, and why do you keep on living like that? Your husband likes it, so very evidently he's not going to change, but I think you need to do something about the way you're living. I wouldn't stand for what he's doing to you, beginning with paying for his debts. Where does it stand written that you're supposed to be his slave, and not get some enjoyment out of life for yourself, and for your kids? Start making an enjoyable life for yourself, and never mind him. Let him take care of himself. That's what I think, & I hope you don't mind my telling you. Incidentally, one way of interpreting some of the Laws of Karma is that circumstances come your way, but it's your choice to do whatever you want to do about them. The Laws of Karma don't say that you have to take what comes lying down. Liesel .......................................................................... >Thanks in advance for listening and to those in the Toronto Theosophical >Society who may get this, please pass this on to your Treasurer and >anyone else who may require payment for books, mailings, courses, trips, >healthfoods, and any other thing: I, Annette Rivington, who has been >paying Peter Rivington's debts and managing all but his spiritual life >for the past 16 years, do hereby notify anyone who may become >financially involved with him, that I take absolutely no responsibility >for any of his actions, debts or liabilities from today, June 29, 1997. > >On this path, if not followed in truth, everything goes to waste and the >vulture lawyers, accountants, legislators, takers, fake philosophers and >healers, and gossipers gain energy and ground. > >What is in the mind IS WHAT IS MANIFEST ( or done). > >Some of us weep already as we watch you watch with glee as the order of >life, both good and bad, appears to disintegrate. > >Those of you who don't read on, know now that you have closed your mind >and life to the wider issues. Goodbye and good luck on your detour >path. >For the stalwart and kind: >I have read some of your correspondence with much interest and have, for >the past two years, lived with the results of your influence. My >(reluctant) comment to everyone is that there will be no positive change >and you will not see control based organizational structures collapse in >your lifetime, unless by massive natural disaster. This is because the >probability that there will ever be a critical mass of people who are >enlightened enough to live and love in the truth, both with themselves >and with others, is much lower than any of you can imagine (including >you who watch with glee), hence no positive, ordered change is likely to >occur, and because most of those organizations that you think are so >unstable have expensive and immediately available disaster programs in >place ( and believe me, they don't include you). The people in general >still need leadership and this leadership can only be based on truth and >love, because, in all our past and present lifetimes, we have all been >there and done that, and those of us who "know" do not usually join >groups and live secret lives and fear censorship. Let us take the >example of my so-called husband, Peter Rivington, who, since joining the >Toronto Theosophical Society, has lied to his friends and family about >where he is and what he is doing, has stopped taking responsibility for >his relationships with others "outside" the group, has gone into debt >and used the money of family members to support what started out as a >possible philosopy of life or religion and has now become a crutch or >excuse for the attainment of pleasure of the self. He calls himself a >student and tells those of us who are left with the responsibility for >all that he now chooses to avoid, that whatever he does is either "meant >to be" or our needs and desires are "not important" in the grand scheme >of things (presumably that he is involved in and we are not). It does >not take "a rocket scientist" to see that my husband is "sick", that a >great number of the world's population is sick, that sick people join >groups to support their sickness and their so-called therapy and that >groups like your own, started by perhaps a brilliant, insightful and >enlightened person and continued by a few of the same, in the same >manner as corporations and governments, attract many people who choose >(for all of life is a choice) not to struggle with the toughest, and >what I consider to be the basis, of this physical life - individual >truth, integrity, consistency, communication, responsibility, love. My >so-called husband, a representative of your philosopy ( currently I >defend it from the title of "sect" and other derogatory terms, but I >suspect not for much longer), informs me that the individual comes >first, that the individual's choice of path is the only important thing, >and that others must ( and I emphasize MUST ) accept this or look to >themselves for their inadequacies in understanding. (In other words, >"I'm right, you're lost; whatever I do is right and you don't matter a >hoot). > >I understand that some of you believe that "the current order" will end >because it has been recorded in prophesy (ancient, old, recent and >current). I have read these prophesies. I understand also that others >of you believe that it will end because it is control based and hence >wrong. I understand very well about that, having studied history and >comparative religion. After about 10,000 years of domination, under a >myriad of philosopies and religions, for these are the basis of your >so-called control organizations - a person's or group of people's >"perception" of this life and how it should be for all of us and many >others "buying in" to the concept and "trusting" that the motivation is >"good and right", many people are facing the devastating realization >that, as a race, we have severely messed up everything we touched to the >extent that it may be unrecoverable. Some of us have quietly maintained >a loving, responsible, hopeful life all along. We have cared for and >nurtured the material and spiritual for both ourselves and others, >forgiving the transgressions of others, working hard on our own >enlightenment in the knowlege that we cannot hope to be an example to >others if we are not seeking perfection ourselves, often facing much >more than our own responsibilities and fears alone, such as I am doing >today. What I understand is that what you people are saying, once >again, is that "yours is the way and the light" and the rest of us are >"outsiders, unitinitiated, underdeveloped, unknowing, unseeing". What a >shame. To repeat the same old same old, I mean. > >What I believe is that, it is an undeniable fact that we spiritual >beings are in physical bodies in a physical environment and, until this >stasis changes it is through this medium that we express ourselves. If >I was alone here, my actions, words and energy transmissions would be >important only to the extent that they affected my environment, and I >would be really stupid to do, say or think anything that destroyed my >environment, unless I also wished to destroy myself. I would have that >choice. I would chose, as I do now, not to make it one of destruction. >( My big fear currently is that I shall be forced to defend it, despite >the fact that I abhor violence in any form, hence being forced by you >lot to do that which I am trying to teach myself and others by my >example not to do. Quite a paradox, eh!) > >I am not alone and nor are any of you. What you do, say and think >affects me and my environment. Hence the perceived need of others for >this censorship that is becoming an issue for you. What you do, say and >think affects people like my husband (who often finds it difficult to >think for himself and I have tried my hardest not to react to this, for >taking responsibility for one's own thoughts and actions is the toughest >thing to learn in this body, but today I fail in this by communicating >to you and not keeping my peace and I forgive myself totally ), and as >he parrots your philosophy and it affects me and our children and my >work, the balance and peace of many is pushed into chaos, and in that >chaos the very people you hope to enlighten and hence change their ways >become even stronger in their drive to maintain the status quo. The old >stone in the pond ripple effect. What your representative, my husband, >says to this is that, once again, if we are so concerned and affected by >what you have to say and do, then we must be weak, unenlightened, >obviously on the wrong path and to look to ourselves for our >inadequacies and to leave you people alone to follow the "true light". >You've got to be kidding! Can you be so narrow minded as to think that >the rest of us are all some kind of dumb neanderthal-type creatures >unconnected to this path and light you keep talking about incessantly? >(Is it because you like the sound or text of your own voices and >thoughts, or do you need to keep talking about it to convince yourselves >of its truth?) Do you really think that we are going to leave you alone >to continue to destroy our marriages, sadden our children, throw our >grandchildren into confusion before they even get started on their paths >which may be totally different from yours that is so obviously tied up >in the ancient, so obviously disconnected from everyday reality, and is >so narrow that is does not address the issues of human psychological >development, interpersonal relations, current scientific knowledge, >commerce and law? (Man cannot live by spirituality alone, UNTIL THE TIME >WHEN MAN CAN LIVE BY SPIRITUALITY ALONE, and all of us are a long way >from that yet!) > >In answer to your expected cry that either my husband is doing it wrong, >or that I am mentally ill (and I've been called that many times before - >brilliant, insightful, truthful, consistent, loving people who stand >firm in the truth always are called mentally ill by those who cannot >lie, cheat, steal and avoid them in the search to satisfy their >self-centered desires), or that this is simply a marriage gone wrong and >has nothing to do with the "greater path", I say to you: Question him. >Bring him to task on the issue. Ask him where in all these books and >lectures (he keeps buying instead of paying his share of the mortgage) >it tells him to lie, cheat and steal the balance, peace, energy, time >and money of any loving soul who is available. Ask him to show you where >he finds in Theosophy the philosophy of the one that precludes the path >of the others. Instruct him to explain to me (one of these so-called >people you expect to be dying of a heart attack) why I should even >consider a philosophy of life that encourages its followers to break all >promises whenever it suits them, use up any unrenewable resource >whenever they chose and expect someone or something else, that they >ridicule in private and use to their benefit in public, to continue to >provide, and that, even though so obviously no closer to the ultimate >truth than the rest of us, tries to convince me that I am so totally >screwed up that I should be regarded as not worth the time or effort of >being treated with the love, respect and integrity that I deserve as a >fellow travellor. > >Here's what I say: We are not living two thousand years ago, or in the >middle ages and we have come along way baby, some of us understanding >and withstanding that particular zealous brand of behaviour currently >exhibited by my husband fueled by your organization, and, to interpret >what a great guy with a great idea, one of the many, would and will >probably say, when the time comes to lead the masses again >" what the bejesus good is it if a man gains what he THINKS is his >everlasting soul and destroys everything else in the process". Just >what ARE you people and my husband going to do when the end comes and >the few of you stand on that hilltop overlooking the death and >destruction of all that went before? Hey. The indigenous peoples and >Jews ( to name a few) have already been there, seen that. Anything you >may say or do at that time will surely mean nothing, will be the basis >for nothing different. The only solution, salvation (call it what you >will) is resolution without destruction. Anything else IS failure. Of >course a few "failed" lives, relationships, religions, philosophies, >economies can be perceived, conveniently, as not wasted effort or part >of the learning curve, in that way we all avoid the guilt, pain and loss >of confidence that may push us into inaction. As an observor of life ( >and I am not a young chick) and a trained teacher, I have observed that, >unless the guilt, pain and loss is great, the lesson remains unlearned >and the way inevitably becomes a detour until life, if given another >chance, brings one right back to the same lesson again. Like it or not, >a lesson unlearned is a failure and resources consumed in repeating past >mistakes knowingly, is a waste of time. Unless of course, you believe >that nothing is real, nothing is a failure, nothing is a waste of time, >there is no such thing as time, nothing you do is matters because the >great all knowing "God" is the only thing that can be real, perfect and >truthful, and consequently everything you do is fine as long as you say >you do it in the name of this perfect state that does not expect you to >be perfect in a thousand lifetimes. And why would you think that the >rest of us will let some of you destroy what a great many of us have >quietly spent our lives building in truth and love? Come out of the >secret societies (aka organized religions), get your noses out of those >musty tomes hidden away in closed libraries (aka organized >education/indoctrination), take a break from those comforting weekend >seminars in exotic locations (no different than the corporate ones I >attend), get off the Internet for a few weeks (aka the need to belong), >and take a walk on the wild side - alone - like some of us who get back >out there in the corporate and interpersonal world holding up our end >everyday, doing both - taking care of business and walking the path and >walking the path and taking care of business. I dare you. > >Anyone can meditate, pray and spout the words. I often do it myself, >meditate and pray that is. I reluctantly spout words as I prefer to >communicate by sense and reading one's energy. Ponder a word of advice >from one who is in training to "see" however much it hurts: Some >philosophies, conversations and groups are like that next drink to an >alcoholic. How can you hope to heal when you continue to feed the >disease? When do you "see" that you are contributing the the very >problem that you say the rest of us are causing? Get a life, for >goodness sake, it's the only one you have this time around, and >according to some of you, this particular physical existance will not be >here for anyone's next life. Oh, and finally, I do not intend to die of >a heart attack or any other nasty disease, and I have managed to >manifest what I chose so far in this life, and I believe as strongly as >you that I am on the right path too, so see you on that hilltop and for >eternity, asking only that you love me, think about me, debate with me, >question with me, and take responsibility for your own thoughts, words >and deeds, as I do for you, until one day you too understand that every >thought, word and deed you make is felt, usually in pain, by some of us >who feel and see.. > >Annette Rivington (No Organized Religion, person, wife, mother, >accountant, B. Sc., B. Ed., M.B.A.) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 17:47:47 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: <33BACC83.65F6@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > Once again, are you going to include Elizabeth Claire Prophet? > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > If Prophet's writings appeal to someone, so be it. Every view point > however unacceptable to one's personal views should be tolerated. Tolerance > is what brings people together and we need all the help we can get from > anyone and everyone to get Theosophy to every man, woman and child. I would kind of expect an answer like that from you. Others, unfortunately, may not be as charitable. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 16:15:34 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Selfish friction? Message-ID: <33BAD306.6056@micron.net> Keith wrote: > Keith: If one really believes in reincarnation, one would be sure to link > together rather than continue selfish friction. Chances are we will meet > again, don't know where, don't know when ... > > Politics makes strange bedfellows, theosophy should make strange love! > Karma makes it imperative that we involve theosophy in politics, employment, family life, human rights (as Patrick mentioned), health care, etc. . .nothing is outside theosophy. What you consider "selfish friction," Keith, may be another person's contribution to society - their sign that they care what happens to other beings. Theosophy is not some love fest, it's an active, living, breathing, progressive movement. It does not consist of robotic head nodders who all think the same - nor should it. I have learned from those I disagree with (in spite of the gigantean pain) - learned from them what I never would have learned from someone who agreed with me. Let them/us speak. . .and be heard - for that is the foundation of Unity. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 17:57:38 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970702225738.006e6d84@mail.eden.com> At 05:49 PM 7/2/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> > Once again, are you going to include Elizabeth Claire Prophet? >> > >> > Bart Lidofsky >> > >> >> If Prophet's writings appeal to someone, so be it. Every view point >> however unacceptable to one's personal views should be tolerated. Tolerance >> is what brings people together and we need all the help we can get from >> anyone and everyone to get Theosophy to every man, woman and child. > > I would kind of expect an answer like that from you. Others, >unfortunately, may not be as charitable. > > Bart Lidofsky > Being a novice in Theosophy, there is no other stand possible for me. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:45:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970702121011.00dd432c@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >> Once again, are you going to include Elizabeth Claire Prophet? >> >> Bart Lidofsky You are quoting a reply of mine to Keith. I have never mentioned this woman, about who I know nothing, but agree with Doss's comment - maybe she had a stall in the market too. We can all shop where we choose. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:53:46 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: Delusions of influence Message-ID: <33BABFC5.85633BF0@earthlink.net> > let us all keep our focus on betterment of Humanity. Amen...this is what Paul is saying :) Love, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 01:04:37 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome! Message-ID: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL WELCOMES Sherry NEAL! E-mail: sneal@fcs.uga.edu Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:51:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theosophy and Internet Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970702120340.006e1780@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >These individuals with foresight are the >pioneers whose primary motivation is from their hearts and is to help >Theosophy without bias towards one organization or the other, are able to >provide a clearinghouse of information and links to other sources of >Theosophy and related materials. > >We have already seen examples of successes of such actions. We have the >theos-xxxxx maillists set up by John E Mead three years ago and the >wonderful website of Rudy Don which is highly professional and with a lot of >links and info. AND the site below, which, dear Doss, you never mention in your occasional eulogies. is there a reason for this? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 21:39:07 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: <33BB02BB.559F@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <2.2.32.19970702121011.00dd432c@mail.eden.com>, > ramadoss@eden.com writes > >> Once again, are you going to include Elizabeth Claire Prophet? > >> > >> Bart Lidofsky > > You are quoting a reply of mine to Keith. I have never mentioned this > woman, about who I know nothing, but agree with Doss's comment - maybe > she had a stall in the market too. We can all shop where we choose. She has a movement which is a derivative of the I AM movement, which is derived off of Alice Bailey. She claims to be the One True Messenger(tm) of the Mahatmas, has a church (where the members give up their worldly posessions to her), is stockpiling arms for coming bad times, and is generally the picture of what is commonly called a "cult leader". Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 21:21:04 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Anything goes? Message-ID: <33BB1AA0.5EDC@micron.net> Doss wrote: > If Prophet's writings appeal to someone, so be it. Every view point > however unacceptable to one's personal views should be tolerated. Tolerance > is what brings people together and we need all the help we can get from > anyone and everyone to get Theosophy to every man, woman and child. I have often heard comments similiar to this one - but I wonder what people really mean when they say "tolerate." What do you mean, Doss, when you say "tolerate?" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 97 03:28:43 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Delusions and Bipolar and Kundalini etc Message-ID: Fascinating!!! Thanks for the information. > Namasate At the risk of sounding woefully ignorant, what does Namasate mean? I've always been dying to know. ;-D Lynn Keith: Namaste means loosely: "the divine being (god) in me, greets the divine being in you! As for delusions of receiving messages from Masters or having a manic episode and mistaking it for a kundalini awakening ---- who is to say, who is to judge. If it is painful, it is because karma is being brought to the surface for good or bad. Only time and karma itself will tell. Good luck on your spiritual journey. I feel being grounded in theosophy helps one through the ups and downs of bipolar disorder or whatever. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 22:38:16 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theosophy and Internet Message-ID: <33BB1EA8.48DE@eden.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <2.2.32.19970702120340.006e1780@mail.eden.com>, > ramadoss@eden.com writes > >These individuals with foresight are the > >pioneers whose primary motivation is from their hearts and is to help > >Theosophy without bias towards one organization or the other, are able to > >provide a clearinghouse of information and links to other sources of > >Theosophy and related materials. > > > >We have already seen examples of successes of such actions. We have the > >theos-xxxxx maillists set up by John E Mead three years ago and the > >wonderful website of Rudy Don which is highly professional and with a lot of > >links and info. > > AND the site below, which, dear Doss, you never mention in your > occasional eulogies. is there a reason for this? > > Alan My full apologies to you. It was just an oversight. I should include ti-l and TI WWW Website. Alan, your labors in getting TI is yet another pioneering effort since it does not have any organization as such. Thanks again for pointing out is unfortunate omission on my part. ...........................doss...................................... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 22:52:57 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Anything goes? Message-ID: <33BB2219.4064@eden.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Doss wrote: > > > If Prophet's writings appeal to someone, so be it. Every view point > > however unacceptable to one's personal views should be tolerated. Tolerance > > is what brings people together and we need all the help we can get from > > anyone and everyone to get Theosophy to every man, woman and child. > > I have often heard comments similiar to this one - but I wonder what > people really mean when they say "tolerate." > > What do you mean, Doss, when you say "tolerate?" > > Kym Very simple. I will with an open mind consider their writings and their ideas. Then what I personally do with them will depend on me at that time. Some of them may be attractive to me and others may not be so. Also I would not belittle the ideas or writings that does not appeal to me or not convincing to me. Just suspend judgement. While I have not given much thought to this issue, this is my off hand response. Hope this helps. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 08:34:06 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Definitions Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970703133406.0069cb50@mail.eden.com> There have been some discussions about defining "Theosophical" terms. Once we go beyond it and get involved in people and organizations, other terms become important. Some of them may be slang and some of them may have unique meanings depending on the context. It may be a good idea to mention a few terms. A discussion of them by people who have encountered them in real life may help newbees who are impressed by the lofty ideals of T/theosophy may avoid some shocks when they run into these. Here are a few terms: Theosophist theosophist Brotherly Unbrotherly Theosophical theosophical untheosophical unTheosophical ............................doss................................ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 97 17:37:00 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Unity Message-ID: <199707032137.RAA21063@leo.vsla.edu> According to compass@theosophycompany.org: > > Regarding HPB as messenger, the following is an interesting quotation, > from the article "HPB -- The Direct Agent" (Theos. Mag.25,289): > > "One need not blindly believe in the credentials of HPB, nor in those > she gave us with respect to the position of her colleague and co-worker, > Whilliam Q. Judge. The great error lies in the assumption that HPB > could have been *both* right and wrong, that the Masters could have > permitted mis-statements of hers to pass uncorrected - allowed their > teachings to be misrepresented to humanity. This in itself is a great error. HPB herself made it quite clear that she *was* both right and wrong, that there were probably things in her teachings that were incorrect due to her own lack of understanding. I could dig up quotes, but haven't time at the moment. Suffice it to say that HPB ABSOLUTELY NEVER claimed the kind of infallibility that the above passage claims for her teachings. Moreover, she EXPLICITLY REJECTED such an idea not once but many times. Were this possible they > could not be Masters. If her Masters are *not* Perfected Men, Theosophy > is a hoax, the study of which is a waste of time. Oh, how much misunderstanding is contained in these lines! The Masters could not be Masters if they allowed HPB to make mistakes? Lordy, read what HPB herself says about all the mistakes in Isis Unveiled! The Masters were never claimed by HPB (or by themselves in their letters) to be omniscient or omnipresent or omnipotent. And she makes it clear that she and Olcott *were* allowed to make mistakes. And, we may add, if > it is a waste of time to study the philosophy which formed the basis of > the teachings of such men as Buddha, Plato and Christ, life is not worth > living." One need not regard Buddha, Plato or Christ as omniscient and omnipotent in order to find the study of their teachings worthwhile. And life is indeed worth living without believing anyone to be Masters in the way depicted in this article. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:46:00 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: The July THEOSOPHY WORLD is out Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970703144600.0082d6d0@imagiware.com> The July issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents were: > "Cycles Do Not Create Us" by Eldon Tucker > "Family Life" by Andrew Rooke > "Theosophical Work in Wales" by Dr. C. A. Bartzokas > "Teaching Theosophy" by Thoa Tran > "Theosophy on CD-ROM" by Gladney Oakley > "Putting an End to Unkindness" by Brenda Tucker > "News From Eastern School Press" by David Reigle > "Looking to the Future of Theosophy" by Dallas TenBroeck > "Welcome to the Theosophical Society in America's Internet List!" > by John Algeo > "The High Country Theosophist" > "Planning Theosophical Work" by Eldon Tucker > "An Invitation to Study" by Einar Adalsteinsson THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 16:04:43 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Unity Message-ID: <33BC13E7.B6A830EB@earthlink.net> Quite right! <> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 16:06:27 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Unity Message-ID: <33BC144F.2E8C94A4@earthlink.net> Quite Right Paul! <> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:06:38 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: <7GOI6PA+BDvzEwbU@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33BB02BB.559F@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > She has a movement which is a derivative of the I AM movement, which is >derived off of Alice Bailey. She claims to be the One True Messenger(tm) >of the Mahatmas, has a church (where the members give up their worldly >posessions to her), is stockpiling arms for coming bad times, and is >generally the picture of what is commonly called a "cult leader". > > Bart Lidofsky Thanks. I think I'll give her stall a miss ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:30:59 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Unity Message-ID: In message <199707032137.RAA21063@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >One need not regard Buddha, Plato or Christ as omniscient and >omnipotent in order to find the study of their teachings >worthwhile. And life is indeed worth living without believing >anyone to be Masters in the way depicted IMHO it would be (and is) dangerous to regard *any* historical figure as omniscient or omnipotent, so I agree with you! Surpised, huh? Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:07:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theosophy and Internet Message-ID: <+GSJ6QAODDvzEwbJ@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33BB1EA8.48DE@eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >My full apologies to you. It was just an oversight. I should include >ti-l and TI WWW Website. Alan, your labors in getting TI is yet another >pioneering effort since it does not have any organization as such. >Thanks again for pointing out is unfortunate omission on my part. You know, Doss, you can be a real nice person! Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:27:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Definitions Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970703133406.0069cb50@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >There have been some discussions about defining "Theosophical" terms. Once >we go beyond it and get involved in people and organizations, other terms >become important. Some of them may be slang and some of them may have unique >meanings depending on the context. It may be a good idea to mention a few >terms. A discussion of them by people who have encountered them in real life >may help newbees who are impressed by the lofty ideals of T/theosophy may >avoid some shocks when they run into these. > >Here are a few terms: > > Theosophist 1. A member of an "official" theosophical organisation with a particular message to offer. > theosophist 2. A student of "god-wisdom" [theo-sophia, from the Greek] who may or may not be a member of anything. > Brotherly 3. Togetherness as defined by someone in the 1. category. > Unbrotherly 4. Often used by 1. when others disagree, otherwise the usual notion of selfishness, particularly the male kind. In 1. Theosophy "Sisterly" can be a hard word to find, and is sadly absent from Doss's (admittedly) incomplete list. > Theosophical 5. In agreement with or following the teachings of organisations like 1. > theosophical 6. Seeking divine wisdom from whatever source. > untheosophical > unTheosophical > 7. Not doing 6. or 5. >............................doss................................ > Alan (Tongue ever so slightly n cheek) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:19:31 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Delusions and Bipolar and Kundalini etc Message-ID: <$WBJOgADODvzEw6C@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Keith: Namaste means loosely: "the divine being (god) in me, greets the >divine being in you! > >As for delusions of receiving messages from Masters or having a manic episode >and mistaking it for a kundalini awakening ---- So Namaste means having delusions of receiving messages from the Master/Mistress within? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 19:01:53 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Definitions Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970704000153.00de4e0c@mail.eden.com> At 07:47 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Alan wrote: >4. Often used by 1. when others disagree, otherwise the usual notion of >selfishness, particularly the male kind. In 1. Theosophy "Sisterly" can >be a hard word to find, and is sadly absent from Doss's (admittedly) >incomplete list. Let us add the Sisterly/unSisterly. I think a inhumane may be added! But we need to educate them to the new vocabulary. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 22:23:02 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: <33BC5E86.70E7@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <33BB02BB.559F@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > > She has a movement which is a derivative of the I AM movement, which is > >derived off of Alice Bailey. She claims to be the One True Messenger(tm) > >of the Mahatmas, has a church (where the members give up their worldly > >posessions to her), is stockpiling arms for coming bad times, and is > >generally the picture of what is commonly called a "cult leader". > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Thanks. I think I'll give her stall a miss ... But that is the point I am trying to make. If one wants to make some sort of unification movement for Theosophy, without judgment, then her group MUST be included. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:19:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Windata attachment - Techno problems Message-ID: <970704091955_126552004@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-02 20:44:49 EDT, Keith write: > I got an attachment with theos-l 115. I tried to open it. Windows 95 pulled > > out a video and audio player, but I got error messages. Am I the only one > in > the dark? > I had problems too. Win95 seemed to think it was some sort of WordPerfect file and said that it couldn't find "frame.exe", whatever that is. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 10:13:07 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Delusions and Bipolar and Kundalini etc Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970704151307.00dfbd1c@mail.eden.com> At 07:54 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message , JOSEPH PRICE > writes >>Keith: Namaste means loosely: "the divine being (god) in me, greets the >>divine being in you! >> >>As for delusions of receiving messages from Masters or having a manic episode >>and mistaking it for a kundalini awakening ---- > >So Namaste means having delusions of receiving messages from the >Master/Mistress within? > >Alan :-) Traditionally the Indian way of welcoming anyone is to say Namasthe when you meet anyone. It is equivalent to shaking hands. Shaking hands when meeting is generally not an accepted custom in India. People in India do not attribute any spiritual significance to it, as far as I have seen during the several decades I spent in India. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 10:13:08 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Definitions Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970704151308.00defec0@mail.eden.com> At 07:47 PM 7/3/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970703133406.0069cb50@mail.eden.com>, >ramadoss@eden.com writes >>There have been some discussions about defining "Theosophical" terms. Once >>we go beyond it and get involved in people and organizations, other terms >>become important. Some of them may be slang and some of them may have unique >>meanings depending on the context. It may be a good idea to mention a few >>terms. A discussion of them by people who have encountered them in real life >>may help newbees who are impressed by the lofty ideals of T/theosophy may >>avoid some shocks when they run into these. >> >>Here are a few terms: >> >> Theosophist > >1. A member of an "official" theosophical organisation with a particular >message to offer. > >> theosophist > >2. A student of "god-wisdom" [theo-sophia, from the Greek] who may or >may not be a member of anything. > >> Brotherly > >3. Togetherness as defined by someone in the 1. category. > >> Unbrotherly > >4. Often used by 1. when others disagree, otherwise the usual notion of >selfishness, particularly the male kind. In 1. Theosophy "Sisterly" can >be a hard word to find, and is sadly absent from Doss's (admittedly) >incomplete list. > >> Theosophical > >5. In agreement with or following the teachings of organisations like 1. > >> theosophical > >6. Seeking divine wisdom from whatever source. > >> untheosophical >> unTheosophical >> >7. Not doing 6. or 5. > >>............................doss................................ >> >Alan (Tongue ever so slightly n cheek) ========================================================================== M K Ramadoss: Here is a quote from Ernest Wood's book "Is This Theosophy...?" 'But I saw no landing-place for the weary unwelcome foot of the white dove of truth in the new interpretation of the Society's principle of tolerance: "Thou shalt not find fault with a brother's views or activities." What a convenience that sort of tolerance would be to lawbreakers in general, if only it could be adopted in the outside world!' [This was written in 1936 before some of us were born!!!] I had an interesting experience several months ago. When I discovered a well known member was deeply involved as one of the defendants in a law suit by a State Attorney General with very serious allegations of a financial nature, and did not pass *my* *smell test* and suggested he relinquish an office he was holding, a response not from him, but from another well known member was that my action was "unbrotherly". Looks like even after six decades there are some who follow the above philosophy that Wood describes. What a miracle! ...........................doss.......................................... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 12:18:59 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Tolerance Message-ID: <199707041919.MAA24357@palrel3.hp.com> I don't have the exact message anymore, but Alan approximately said: There are many who possibly have a stall in the marketplace of Theosophical telepathic downpourings. (I hope I remembered right. Apologies, Alan, if I distorted it.) Bart asked: > Once again, are you going to include Elizabeth Claire Prophet? Doss answered: > If Prophet's writings appeal to someone, so be it. Every view point however > unacceptable to one's personal views should be tolerated. Tolerance is what > brings people together and we need all the help we can get from anyone and > everyone to get Theosophy to every man, woman and child. I think I see what you are getting at, Bart. Like Doss, I have an abstract ideal of tolerance, especially having been on the receiving end of intolerance. But your question does provoke some thought as to how far one should take tolerance and in what sense to apply it. Groups from small ones to nations have had to grapple with similar questions. For example, does one tolerate sado-masochistic images, or graphic images of child abuse or racist statements in the media - even if they are not acted out? Every group of people that come together to utilize their collective effort for something have to have some kind of focus and identity. If a member comes in with too divergent a vision from the common one, does it make sense to make the identity more tenuous and dilute the vision? Or perhaps is this divergent vision really a badly needed enrichment that everyone will incorporate after painful soul-searching? It could be either. The kind of basic honesty and discernment of the membership as a whole determines whether they will reject the former, but accept the latter. If an avatar is present in the group there is no problem. For example, Sri Yukteswar gave varying degrees of latitude as to how things functioned in his ashram. But on occasion, he would ask someone to leave. Enlightened tolerance. When the avatar dies the group seems to function well for a while. Eventually the core virtue becomes diluted. The group is left with lesser mortals such as you and I who are left with the difficult question as to what kind of tolerance is an enlightened tolerance. Life then becomes exciting. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 14:34:16 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Tolerance Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970704193416.00cdc34c@mail.eden.com> At 03:20 PM 7/4/97 -0400, Titus Roth wrote: >I don't have the exact message anymore, but Alan approximately said: > >There are many who possibly have a stall in the marketplace of Theosophical >telepathic downpourings. (I hope I remembered right. Apologies, Alan, if >I distorted it.) > >Bart asked: > >> Once again, are you going to include Elizabeth Claire Prophet? > >Doss answered: > >> If Prophet's writings appeal to someone, so be it. Every view point however >> unacceptable to one's personal views should be tolerated. Tolerance is what >> brings people together and we need all the help we can get from anyone and >> everyone to get Theosophy to every man, woman and child. > >I think I see what you are getting at, Bart. Like Doss, I have an >abstract ideal of tolerance, especially having been on the receiving >end of intolerance. But your question does provoke some thought as to >how far one should take tolerance and in what sense to apply >it. Groups from small ones to nations have had to grapple with similar >questions. For example, does one tolerate sado-masochistic images, or >graphic images of child abuse or racist statements in the media - even >if they are not acted out? > >Every group of people that come together to utilize their collective effort >for something have to have some kind of focus and identity. If a member comes >in with too divergent a vision from the common one, does it make sense to make >the identity more tenuous and dilute the vision? Or perhaps is this divergent >vision really a badly needed enrichment that everyone will incorporate after >painful soul-searching? It could be either. The kind of basic honesty and >discernment of the membership as a whole determines whether they will reject >the former, but accept the latter. > >If an avatar is present in the group there is no problem. For example, >Sri Yukteswar gave varying degrees of latitude as to how things >functioned in his ashram. But on occasion, he would ask someone to >leave. Enlightened tolerance. > >When the avatar dies the group seems to function well for a >while. Eventually the core virtue becomes diluted. The group is left >with lesser mortals such as you and I who are left with the difficult >question as to what kind of tolerance is an enlightened tolerance. > >Life then becomes exciting. > Your points are well taken. I use some very simple rules to deal with situations such as you describe. First and foremost, I keep my own counsel and am ready for its consequences. If anyone's views or actions, is likely to cause cruelty or injustice to anyone, then I will under no circumstances will support it and will do what I can to stop it. Any action or view I see helping our fellow humans and other living creatures, I will support at all times. Any complicated analysis or justification is too complex for my simple mind and intelligence. KISS principle appeals to me. ....................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 17:46:01 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: The Unknowable Absolute Message-ID: <19970704.144510.8935.0.trr@juno.com> I have been reading Emily Sellon's "The Pilgrim and the Pilgrimage." On page 85, she wrote: "The source and cause of all manifested being is one absolute unknown and unknowable reality: ultimate, ever-present, boundless, and eternal, beyond both being and non-being." I don't understand this. If nothing can be said about the Absolute, why even use the word? Why say what she said about it? Nothing could be more conducive to dogmatism and cultishness than such a doctrine which cannot be understood, but must be either believed in or not believed in. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 17:57:52 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Tolerance Message-ID: <33BD71E0.94F@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > If anyone's views or actions, is likely to cause cruelty or injustice to > anyone, then I will under no circumstances will support it and will do what > I can to stop it. > > Any action or view I see helping our fellow humans and other living > creatures, I will support at all times. One would have to be a Mahatma to figure out a view or action which would cause the latter without causing the former (or vice versa). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 18:08:50 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Unknowable Absolute Message-ID: <33BD7472.6E6C@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > > I have been reading Emily Sellon's "The Pilgrim and the Pilgrimage." On > page 85, she wrote: Actually, she didn't. This is not nitpicking, but a key to understanding much of what is there. Emily Sellon, during her lifetime, gave many talks, and did a lot of editing of the works of others, but left virtually nothing behind in writing. Literally within a week or so of her death, she gave a presentation at Pumpkin Hollow Farm that was taped (I was not at Pumpkin Hollow, but I have listened to the tapes many times). "The Pilgrim and the Pilgrimage" is a transcription of that talk, which was a very fitting final talk, as it gave a summary of Emily's views on Theosophy. My wife, by the way, is preparing a secondary course on Theosophy (for people who have taken Ed Abdill's FOUNDATIONS OF THE AGELESS WISDOM course, available on tape from the Theosophical Publishing House or any Quest Bookshop) based on THE PILGRIM AND THE PILGRIMAGE. It will be given at the New York Lodge probably this coming winter. > "The source and cause of all manifested being is one absolute unknown and > unknowable reality: ultimate, ever-present, boundless, and eternal, > beyond both being and non-being." > > I don't understand this. If nothing can be said about the Absolute, why > even use the word? Why say what she said about it? Nothing could be > more conducive to dogmatism and cultishness than such a doctrine which > cannot be understood, but must be either believed in or not believed in. It is setting a limit. What Emily is saying (which is merely a restating of the First Principle of the Secret Doctrine) is that, no matter how close we get to the truth, there will be one basic part that we cannot understand, and knowing this is a key to understanding the rest. One of the problems with thinking about the source is that, in trying to understand it, one creates a duality, and once one thinks in terms of duality, then one cannot understand the Unity. In order to understand the Cause, one must become the Cause, and then one is no longer human, apart from it, and therefore one no longer exists from our point of view. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 18:36:24 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Tolerance Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970704233624.00db4b88@mail.eden.com> At 05:58 PM 7/4/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> If anyone's views or actions, is likely to cause cruelty or injustice to >> anyone, then I will under no circumstances will support it and will do what >> I can to stop it. >> >> Any action or view I see helping our fellow humans and other living >> creatures, I will support at all times. > > One would have to be a Mahatma to figure out a view or action which >would cause the latter without causing the former (or vice versa). > > Bart Lidofsky > I agree. But since it is going to take quite some time before I could get to the Mahatma stage, I try my best within my limited abilities. Sure manytimes I may go wrong. Some times I hope I am right. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 19:45:57 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Tolerance Message-ID: <33BD8B35.144E@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > At 05:58 PM 7/4/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >> If anyone's views or actions, is likely to cause cruelty or injustice to > >> anyone, then I will under no circumstances will support it and will do what > >> I can to stop it. > >> > >> Any action or view I see helping our fellow humans and other living > >> creatures, I will support at all times. > > > > One would have to be a Mahatma to figure out a view or action which > >would cause the latter without causing the former (or vice versa). > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > I agree. But since it is going to take quite some time before I > could get to the Mahatma stage, I try my best within my limited abilities. > Sure manytimes I may go wrong. Some times I hope I am right. That is similar to the statement that I make, when someone asks me my opinion on karma. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:51:26 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: In message <33BC5E86.70E7@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> In message <33BB02BB.559F@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky >> writes >> > She has a movement which is a derivative of the I AM movement, which >is >> >derived off of Alice Bailey. She claims to be the One True Messenger(tm) >> >of the Mahatmas, has a church (where the members give up their worldly >> >posessions to her), is stockpiling arms for coming bad times, and is >> >generally the picture of what is commonly called a "cult leader". >> > >> > Bart Lidofsky >> >> Thanks. I think I'll give her stall a miss ... > > But that is the point I am trying to make. If one wants to make some >sort of unification movement for Theosophy, without judgment, then her >group MUST be included. > > Bart Lidofsky Indeed it must, but a friendly word can alert us to its presence and nature, which is how I understood your message! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 00:54:35 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Market stalls Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970705055435.00768950@mail.eden.com> At 09:21 PM 7/4/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <33BC5E86.70E7@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes >>Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >>> >>> In message <33BB02BB.559F@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky >>> writes >>> > She has a movement which is a derivative of the I AM movement, which >>is >>> >derived off of Alice Bailey. She claims to be the One True Messenger(tm) >>> >of the Mahatmas, has a church (where the members give up their worldly >>> >posessions to her), is stockpiling arms for coming bad times, and is >>> >generally the picture of what is commonly called a "cult leader". >>> > >>> > Bart Lidofsky >>> >>> Thanks. I think I'll give her stall a miss ... >> >> But that is the point I am trying to make. If one wants to make some >>sort of unification movement for Theosophy, without judgment, then her >>group MUST be included. >> >> Bart Lidofsky > >Indeed it must, but a friendly word can alert us to its presence and >nature, which is how I understood your message! > >Alan I have seen her videos in the local public channel. She lectures to an audience and at the background there are the pictures of the two Adepts who are said to be the founders of modern Theosophical Movement. There are books as well. So apparently her msg appeals to some of her followers. So it is worthwhile for any theosophist to be aware of her movement. ................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:04:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Windata attachment - Techno problems Message-ID: <970705120447_1510625990@emout15.mail.aol.com> I can't read windata at all on my system. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 09:37:24 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Psychohistory & y2k Message-ID: <33BE5BEF.B0B96F70@earthlink.net> Psychohistory & y2k [Alessandra's Law :) in honor of Isaac Asimov] "Any sufficiently complex system based on context sensitive assumptions must eventually dissolve. The temporal process of dissolution correllates inversely with context proximity." management short sightedness = forced context dependency -> y2k dissolution Thesophically...this is knowable....but the absolute Law in unknowable via human faculties. Happy Days, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 17:35:22 -0400 From: Annette Rivington Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <33BEBE17.B16E49F7@globalserve.net> Thanks to Alan and Eldon and Liesel for your responses. I have printed and retained them as they contain much that is helpful. I read "Nucleus of Brotherhood" et al, which also illuminated some points for me. Alan: Hope to meet you in eternity. I felt the support jump off the page and hug me just when I needed it most. You're the healer in that momentary triad. Eldon: Well, you certainly proved me wrong about not including the psychological. Yes, I recognize the "Peter Pan" personality and, considering the radical change in personality and behaviour lately, I think you may understand why I was convinced you lot were a cult. My sadness arises because of the very principal of "in-between space" that you describe. This was something I expected to achieve in a relationship over many years of ups and downs, comings and goings. I guess I expect too much, too soon. My next step: I'm re-reading the Celestine Prophesy and want to find out if I have some psychic skills. Mostly, I'm watching and listening for a "call" of some kind, but in the meantime, I'm plodding on. Eldon, you're the philosopher in the triad, and boy, do you know your stuff. Liesel: I watched your comings and goings. I apologize for attacking your philosophy, but know you understand my misguided motives. I am trying to make an enjoyable life for myself, starting with truth and compassion at home. I can't just walk out, that would go against all my beliefs and what example would that be for my children? Also, because I love Peter in the same way I love any person and I know that taking away from him his "safe place to go back to" is the one way one can hurt him the most and I do not want to hurt anyone in the process of finding my own way. Also because "walking away" from those things I find difficult or painful is always my first inclination (I figure something I did a lot in a past life) so I am trying to learn to say to the tough things: "come dance with me and show me the way", but now and again I get pushed to the wall and I turn and defend myself any way I think will work. Liesel, you're the warrior in the triad. (A warrior only defends the peace). Always ready to give up your own needs to make sure that the opportunity for fairness and growth is given to all. I got what I asked for, and as usual I doubt. Inaction is sooo much safer! We no longer get the Theos-Buds and now I miss your chat that was never mine to share in the first place. Peter is momentarily catatonic, at least at home, because he never imagined I would turn and lash out. He'll get over it, and I'll work this through. I feel sort of "fuller" because I talked to you guys and you talked back. As I read your thoughts, I did not feel alone. We aren't supposed to feel so lonely most of the time, are we? You did a great job. Have a great life. Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 16:55:54 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: SHE'S BA-A-A-A-A-A-CK! Message-ID: <199707052154.RAA27301@newman.concentric.net> Having jumped into the subject quite abruptly, I have to agree to with Doss, that is good to be aware of Prophet's movement - especially her arsenal. I have been immmersed in reading about the UFO movement and found that the one most written about were that of BO and Peep. While well-documented for years, no one believed their followers were REALLY going to carry out their mission to their logical end until they did. It is written frequently that Bonny Nettles was a member of the Theosophical Society in Houston and imparted many of her ideas to her obviously disturbed partner. One article I read went to so fas as to grant TS the dubious honor of being the father of UFO movements. Guess that somehow tags along with the Mother of the New AGe. It never occurrs to these people that ancient can look awfully newage when you package in a spaceship and surround it with New Age Huckers. Who is worthy of the pure lineage? The Lords of the Flame? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 01:41:43 -0500 (CDT) From: cdgert@ripco.com (CDGertrude) Subject: Re: Windata attachment - Techno problems Message-ID: > > I can't read windata at all on my system. > > Chuck the Heretic > Is that because you can't read? -- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:16:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: SHE'S BA-A-A-A-A-A-CK! Message-ID: <970706131640_473046957@emout19.mail.aol.com> The Heretic rejoices. Anyway, considering the nonsense that has been put out by the TS on a lot of things over the years, it is not unfair to think that some of our people were from other planets. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:18:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Windata attachment - Techno problems Message-ID: <970706131829_-1024835538@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-06 02:42:59 EDT, you write: >Is that because you can't read? >-- No, it's from listening to your jokes. They've blown a circuit in the system. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 12:28:39 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: SHE'S BA-A-A-A-A-A-CK! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970706172839.00e3fe58@mail.eden.com> At 01:17 PM 7/6/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >The Heretic rejoices. > >Anyway, considering the nonsense that has been put out by the TS on a lot of >things over the years, it is not unfair to think that some of our people were >from other planets. > >Chuck the Heretic > Truly some may even very convinced they are from some other planets! ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 19:00:12 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Thanks Message-ID: <33BED1FC.621@sprynet.com> Annette Rivington wrote: > My next step: I'm re-reading the Celestine Prophesy and want to find > out if I have some psychic skills. Rather than read the Celestine Prophecy, you might want to read the original source from which it was plagar^H^H^H^H^Htaken, and read the works of Teillhard de Chardin. As far as psychic skills go, at least according to many teachers, they are a spiritual dead end. You can gain them through spiritual development, or not, but working on them will not increase your spiritual development, nor is the posession of them a sign of spiritual development. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:41:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Windata attachment - Techno problems Message-ID: In message , CDGertrude writes >> >> I can't read windata at all on my system. >> >> Chuck the Heretic >> > > >Is that because you can't read? >-- If so, how will he know you said this? Life can be hard sometimes ... Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:43:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Information Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Hello, I reside in the San Fernando Valley of Southern California. I would be most grateful if you could suggest where I may go to get more information on Theosophy. I understand that there are group meetings held around the country, and was hoping that you may be able to steer me in the right direction... I am currently reading a couple of books by Rudolf Steiner, so I am very new to the subject. Any information that you can pass along, would be very much appreciated. I can be contacted at PattyK8888@aol.com for e-mail, or my mailing address is: Patty King P.O. Box 8608 Universal City, Ca. 91618 Very Sincerely, Patty From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:39:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: SHE'S BA-A-A-A-A-A-CK! Message-ID: In message <199707052154.RAA27301@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >Who is worthy of the pure lineage? The Lords of the >Flame? Modesty forbids ..... Alan :-) (Welcome back!) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 19:09:39 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: SHE'S BA-A-A-A-A-A-CK! Message-ID: <199707071214.IAA02910@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: SHE'S BA-A-A-A-A-A-CK! > Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 12:30 PM > > At 01:17 PM 7/6/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > >The Heretic rejoices. > > > >Anyway, considering the nonsense that has been put out by the TS on a lot of > >things over the years, it is not unfair to think that some of our people were > >from other planets. > > > >Chuck the Heretic > > > Truly some may even very convinced they are from some other planets! > > ........doss You mean they AREN'T? A. Safron > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 07:26:23 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: SHE'S BA-A-A-A-A-A-CK! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970707122623.00dc9268@mail.eden.com> At 08:17 AM 7/7/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: SHE'S BA-A-A-A-A-A-CK! >> Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 12:30 PM >> >> At 01:17 PM 7/6/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >> >The Heretic rejoices. >> > >> >Anyway, considering the nonsense that has been put out by the TS on a lot of >> >things over the years, it is not unfair to think that some of our people were >> >from other planets. >> > >> >Chuck the Heretic >> > >> Truly some may even very convinced they are from some other planets! >> >> ........doss > >You mean they AREN'T? > >A. Safron No. They only know. ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 12:39:06 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Tolerance Message-ID: <199707071939.MAA00560@palrel3.hp.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > If anyone's views or actions, is likely to cause cruelty or injustice to > anyone, then I will under no circumstances will support it and will do what > I can to stop it. > Any action or view I see helping our fellow humans and other living > creatures, I will support at all times. > Any complicated analysis or justification is too complex for my simple mind > and intelligence. KISS principle appeals to me. Good principles. Complicated analysis is not necessary if one has developed good perception and intuition. Just for clarification, my point is that there's a difference between tolerance and endorsement. It's fine if a group of people want to join together and devote themselves to Elizabeth Claire Prophet. That doesn't directly cause cruelty or injustice. But including her ideas in a group focused on theosophy might go against the group's purposes by diluting truth with fluff. It may sound judgmental to call Prophet's stuff fluff. But hey, we all fall into a bit of fluff at some point in our lives. That is our right. Perhaps the experience teaches us something. Sooner or later, though, we want to have something more. And we want that something available in the most unadulterated form humanly possible. I would rather work in groups devoted to making that something available - as far as human fallibility allows. Well, I've wandered from the original topic. To recap, I think there is some legitimate kind of exclusiveness. Theosophical groups should be able to reject some things from inclusion into their objectives. How responsibly they do it depends on their collective virtue. Garbage in. Garbage out. Gold in. Gold out. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:12:51 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Tolerance Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970707201251.00ddcfc0@mail.eden.com> At 03:39 PM 7/7/97 -0400, Titus Roth wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >> If anyone's views or actions, is likely to cause cruelty or injustice to >> anyone, then I will under no circumstances will support it and will do what >> I can to stop it. > >> Any action or view I see helping our fellow humans and other living >> creatures, I will support at all times. > >> Any complicated analysis or justification is too complex for my simple mind >> and intelligence. KISS principle appeals to me. > >Good principles. Complicated analysis is not necessary if one has developed >good perception and intuition. > >Just for clarification, my point is that there's a difference between >tolerance and endorsement. Sure I agree with this important distinction. > >It's fine if a group of people want to join together and devote themselves to >Elizabeth Claire Prophet. That doesn't directly cause cruelty or injustice. >But including her ideas in a group focused on theosophy might go against the >group's purposes by diluting truth with fluff. > I think that all the philosophies unless verified with first hand experience should always be taken with a certain amount of skepticism which makes all of us fully alert to potential error or misunderstanding. I donot know about truth being diluted. If truth is dynamic and not a fixed point, then any amount of fluff cannot hide it for long, IMHO. >It may sound judgmental to call Prophet's stuff fluff. But hey, we all fall >into a bit of fluff at some point in our lives. That is our right. Perhaps >the experience teaches us something. Sooner or later, though, we want to have >something more. And we want that something available in the most >unadulterated form humanly possible. I would rather work in groups devoted >to making that something available - as far as human fallibility allows. > >Well, I've wandered from the original topic. To recap, I think there is some >legitimate kind of exclusiveness. Theosophical groups should be able to reject >some things from inclusion into their objectives. How responsibly they do >it depends on their collective virtue. Garbage in. Garbage out. Gold in. >Gold out. > Each group sets up its own set of parameters which the group tries to live by. But without endorsing anything, we can all follow live and let live approach. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 18:18:22 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Breaking down the door to enlightenment Message-ID: <199707080118.SAA05094@palrel3.hp.com> "JOSEPH PRICE" wrote: > Is it to be wondered that so few reach the goal, that so > many are called, but so few are chosen? Is not the reason for > this explained in three lines on page 27 of the "Voice of the > Silence"? These say that while "The first repeat in pride 'Behold, > I know,' the last, they who in humbleness have garnered, low > confess, 'thus have I heard' "; and hence, become the only > "chosen." > > Lucifer, June 1890 "Mistaken Notions on the 'Secret Doctrine'" > H.P. BLAVATSKY > > > Keith: I am confused by this quotation. I would assume that those following > the path must test everything with their own consciousness, thus saying like > Jung: "I don't believe, I KNOW" This is the tradition of the gnostic who > has experienced the spiritual for himself. > > To say humbly, this is what I have heard, and that makes one "chosen" to be a > student of the Masters, seems strangely antiquated, outdated. Perhaps this > quotation is taken out of context and she was being ironic or maybe not. > > Do the Masters really want a bunch of vegetarian brown noses? I think both Keith and HPB are right. Eventually you must be able to say, "I know." But not too soon. And you certainly shouldn't predicate your quest on only what you have proved. An initial leap of faith is needed. HPB is saying the following: Sublime truths brought by avatars cannot be understood by saying, "Oh, that means nothing but so-and-so." It is human nature to want to hear what you already know and pour the new wine into old bottles. "Behold, I know." The meaning of new wisdom truths can only be discovered by having an intuition that they are true (even though you really don't understand them fully yet) and then perservering at trying to apply them and get at their true meaning. It can take years with little or no results before you succeed. Along the way, the best you can say is, "Thus, I have heard." To use Jung as an example, he studied Alchemy on a hint for quite a while with out any results at all. He thought, "This is meaningless and silly." But he accepted the intimations of the Unconscious on a kind of faith. Along the way, he must have grumbled frequenly "Thus, I have heard." (Perhaps from his Philemon?) With some it is a matter of pride to not act on anything they haven't already proved to themselves. That is the ego which only wants to run around in the narrow little circle of what it thinks it knows. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 17:55:26 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Bart's repsonse Message-ID: <33C165CE.6EEF@sprynet.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > How many angels can stand on the head of a pin (provided angels an stand)? lfd 42. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:12:36 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: RE: Annettes Spiritual Seeds..... Message-ID: <01BC8B55.51C55860@rvik-ppp-ps-13.ismennt.is> Well. I knew you could pull it folks!!! I have been witnessing some sprouting of spititual seeds here on Theos-Buds (of all places) since Annette posted her somewhat emotional and provocating, but very sensible post. I think that you touched a string in all of us here Anette. - Thank you. This dialogue has been wonderful to follow, so much of compassion and sensitivity without the negative attitude. OK. Just a little into the dialogue. I got the Celstine Prophesy in its first months and I liked it so much that I started a 5 week introductory course into its vays of Self Culture or Spiritual Path at the TS in Iceland. There were in all 3 courses, before I got back to my old track, but I still include one evening (two hours) going into the main points. Of course there is nothing new under the sun, concerning the perennial wisdom, but we need ever new approaches to it, not because of the wisdom, but because of our nature of mental stagnation in the forms - any forms. It is therfore of paramount importance that we can speak the 'truth' in a fresh way at all times. So if you find CP to be of help, then use it as a platform into further study - you will find it repeated and corroborated in miriads of ways in the scriptures, but it is the "guts feeling" that matters. To feel it working within, and spreading from there to the outer life, is what makes it worth while. And CP is good for that. Aprpos Spiritual Powers. I almost tend to stand by all the views put forth here. It is my view that one should use it cautiously, even not at all - IN PUBLIC... !! It is the 'show-off' that most often turns it into a circus, not because of the powers, but because of peoples attitude in general. You should always be aware that when showing of such extra sensory powers, most people have no way of corroborating what is said or done. It will unfortunately split people into believers and sceptics, and maybe a few neutral (sane?) minds, and the 'freak' will end up with lot of adoring, albeit blind followers. (What a nice and comfortable felling for any well inflated EGO!!) Then any faculty obtained naturally in the course of spiritual endeavour is a gift to be cherished and cultivated for any benificial cause, relieving suffering, promoting understanding and unity. But the real skills of spirituality, worth seeking all the time, by every means, are there laid out for us by the masters and sages of all times - becoming more understanding, more loving, - yes and more tolerant, (in a 'correct' way). Note the golden rule of relationship: "You should never use or manipulate any person - and more important - you should never yield to the use or manipulation of any person whatsoever" This is first rule of Control Theory, the remedy of all socalled co-dependecy, which is one of the most common disease's of modern (and ancient) relationships. This is a very difficult and complicated rule to apply, but it is the key to a personal freedom beyond imagination!! I would like to add some few words on service, help, charity and giving. First of all: Giving is only 'real' giving if there is not a touch of craving for anything in return. Secondly: Giving is also impossible if there is a craving from the reciever of the gift. Please don't take these statements lightly. Ponder over them and see if they are really right or wrong. In the light of these abowe statements we should look at the other "good deeds". Help is only help if both given and received unconditionally. Help tends to become manipulation, according to the helpers limited view on the situation. Charity is more often than not important for the "charitable" person and not at all for the receiver. Service, in the real sense, is also a very subtle form of giving unconditionally from ones heart. These are basics, but if we are aware of their importance in our relations to others and try to apply them wholeheartidly, we will eventually understand how wise they really are. Horse-trading gifts and any other 'goods' in relationship is perfectly all right, if we stick to the abowe rules, set fair limits in our relationships, and practice the art of unconditional giving, whenever we have anything of worth to give. It may be noted , in case you didn't know, that giving is the key ingredience in spiritual joy and happiness!! As usual I may sound like I know all this, - I don't !. Please take this for what it is, a feeble seeking for some light in the dark - and don't dare to believe a word of what I just said....! I have to leave you now, going this morning (the time is past 4 am) out in the country, to spend a week alone in the family hut in the nort of Iceland, trees all around, mountains to climb, company of the birds, the music of a lonely brook, the immense silence of the light arctic night - just imagine - heaven on earth, heaven within! See you all in a week! Einar from Iceland. ---------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 00:47:39 +1200 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: To Annette (Re: THEOS-BUDS Digest 237 etc) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970709065955.28577ff8@iprolink.co.nz> Annette I loved and resonated with many parts of your long message several days ago and recognised a number of the painful places you talked about. I've been in the TS for around 33 years and have come to believe that if theosophy just stays in your head, it hasn't got very far at all. That relationships are the furnace where the tools for doing things like the first Object of the TS can be forged, and that the first Object in turn points us to a wider, deeper quality of relationships. >take a walk on the wild side - alone - like some of us who get back >out there in the corporate and interpersonal world holding up our end >everyday, doing both - taking care of business and walking the path and >walking the path and taking care of business. I dare you. Dare happily accepted because that is what I'm trying to do already. IMO, integration is the name of the game for whole-being health and spiritual growth - between head and heart, belief system and actions, what you demand for yourself and what you offer to others, between the different states you traverse in consciousness during your day, between your many intentions, etc etc etc. There are so many ways this seed idea can unfold. Not a day goes past without my getting a surprise of discovering another connection somewhere. Fragmentation and separation between us and within us are, I dare say, the biggest single causes of pain and getting stuck on our evolutionary journey. Ie, dysfunctional or unrealised relationships. Take a look at the problems at different scales: in the world, in your country, in your city and in individual lives and see if some form of non-integration is not at the base of them. By the way, I enjoyed the Celestine Prophecy and found its insights an uncluttered, accessible expression of some facets of the ancient wisdom. Teilhard de Chardin's writing is great, though in a different register and from a very different background. The heart of the wisdom is timeless but we must be open to new expressions of it, to avoid fossilization ourselves. If fresh leaves didn't keep coming out of the branch, you'd wonder if the sap was still flowing. As for the "psychic" - a term about as specific as the philosophical or the energetic; in the TS, as I think you are finding already, there is a certain negative baggage associated with it, which initially arose as some reasonable advice for protection and balance but has since got a bit screwed up and crabbed in the hands of those who are high in theory and low in relevant experience. I remember going to Geoffrey Hodson, a theosophical writer you may be aware of, and saying to him that others had commented that I had a healing touch etc, and asking what I should do to develop it. He replied simply "Use it." The kind of intentionality for using it was utterly clear, too. I believe that good integration generally means being open to, and cultivating a balanced development of all the levels and frequency ranges of our being, and a sensible attitude to that development. To have a special down on one level could in fact be unbalanced - a sort of focus of small-selfdom or an unnecessary complex. Be encouraged. Thanks for taking the risk, if such it was, of writing so much from the heart as well as from the head - the integration was great! Murray From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:33:30 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: RE: Annettes Spiritual Seeds..... Message-ID: <01BC8BA3.AC565380@rvik-ppp-ps-2.ismennt.is> This message bounced back, so here I try again............ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well. I knew you could pull it folks!!! I have been witnessing some sprouting of spititual seeds here on Theos-Buds (of all places) since Annette posted her somewhat emotional and provocating, but very sensible post. I think that you touched a string in all of us here Anette. - Thank you. This dialogue has been wonderful to follow, so much of compassion and sensitivity without the negative attitude. OK. Just a little into the dialogue. I got the Celstine Prophesy in its first months and I liked it so much that I started a 5 week introductory course into its vays of Self Culture or Spiritual Path at the TS in Iceland. There were in all 3 courses, before I got back to my old track, but I still include one evening (two hours) going into the main points. Of course there is nothing new under the sun, concerning the perennial wisdom, but we need ever new approaches to it, not because of the wisdom, but because of our nature of mental stagnation in the forms - any forms. It is therfore of paramount importance that we can speak the 'truth' in a fresh way at all times. So if you find CP to be of help, then use it as a platform into further study - you will find it repeated and corroborated in miriads of ways in the scriptures, but it is the "guts feeling" that matters. To feel it working within, and spreading from there to the outer life, is what makes it worth while. And CP is good for that. Aprpos Spiritual Powers. I almost tend to stand by all the views put forth here. It is my view that one should use it cautiously, even not at all - IN PUBLIC... !! It is the 'show-off' that most often turns it into a circus, not because of the powers, but because of peoples attitude in general. You should always be aware that when showing of such extra sensory powers, most people have no way of corroborating what is said or done. It will unfortunately split people into believers and sceptics, and maybe a few neutral (sane?) minds, and the 'freak' will end up with lot of adoring, albeit blind followers. (What a nice and comfortable felling for any well inflated EGO!!) Then any faculty obtained naturally in the course of spiritual endeavour is a gift to be cherished and cultivated for any benificial cause, relieving suffering, promoting understanding and unity. But the real skills of spirituality, worth seeking all the time, by every means, are there laid out for us by the masters and sages of all times - becoming more understanding, more loving, - yes and more tolerant, (in a 'correct' way). Note the golden rule of relationship: "You should never use or manipulate any person - and more important - you should never yield to the use or manipulation of any person whatsoever" This is first rule of Control Theory, the remedy of all socalled co-dependecy, which is one of the most common disease's of modern (and ancient) relationships. This is a very difficult and complicated rule to apply, but it is the key to a personal freedom beyond imagination!! I would like to add some few words on service, help, charity and giving. First of all: Giving is only 'real' giving if there is not a touch of craving for anything in return. Secondly: Giving is also impossible if there is a craving from the reciever of the gift. Please don't take these statements lightly. Ponder over them and see if they are really right or wrong. In the light of these abowe statements we should look at the other "good deeds". Help is only help if both given and received unconditionally. Help tends to become manipulation, according to the helpers limited view on the situation. Charity is more often than not important for the "charitable" person and not at all for the receiver. Service, in the real sense, is also a very subtle form of giving unconditionally from ones heart. These are basics, but if we are aware of their importance in our relations to others and try to apply them wholeheartidly, we will eventually understand how wise they really are. Horse-trading gifts and any other 'goods' in relationship is perfectly all right, if we stick to the abowe rules, set fair limits in our relationships, and practice the art of unconditional giving, whenever we have anything of worth to give. It may be noted , in case you didn't know, that giving is the key ingredience in spiritual joy and happiness!! As usual I may sound like I know all this, - I don't !. Please take this for what it is, a feeble seeking for some light in the dark - and don't dare to believe a word of what I just said....! I have to leave you now, going this morning (the time is past 4 am) out in the country, to spend a week alone in the family hut in the nort of Iceland, trees all around, mountains to climb, company of the birds, the music of a lonely brook, the immense silence of the light arctic night - just imagine - heaven on earth, heaven within! See you all in a week! Einar from Iceland. ---------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 97 23:22:18 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: TECHNO problems Message-ID: >> >> I can't read windata at all on my system. >> >> Chuck the Heretic >> > > How do you open the windata. What reader? Also when people send those monstrously long coded gifs or whatever, think twice. I can's uncode them either. Just a humble jumble suggestion. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 97 23:25:45 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Masters Speak TODAY? Message-ID: >It's fine if a group of people want to join together and devote themselves to >Elizabeth Claire Prophet. That doesn't directly cause cruelty or injustice. >But including her ideas in a group focused on theosophy might go against the >group's purposes by diluting truth with fluff. Keith: A couple of days back, I asked if the Masters speak to us today. I forgot about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, Ramtha and all the channelers. There stuff is kind of generic and when specific is usually wrong, like ECP prediction of the end of the world. We seem to still be here! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:45:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Masters Speak TODAY? Message-ID: <8o$phHAGEtwzEwgu@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Keith: A couple of days back, I asked if the Masters speak to us today. I >forgot about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, Ramtha and all the channelers. There >stuff is kind of generic and when specific is usually wrong, like ECP >prediction of the end of the world. We seem to still be here! This is, we have been told, only an illusion, or maya. My arthritis disagrees. (No remedies, please - I hear 'em all, tried most). Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:07:52 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Masters Speak TODAY? Message-ID: <199707091243.IAA08698@marconi.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Masters Speak TODAY? > Date: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 6:32 PM > > Keith: A couple of days back, I asked if the Masters speak to us today. I > forgot about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, Ramtha and all the channelers. There > stuff is kind of generic and when specific is usually wrong, like ECP > prediction of the end of the world. We seem to still be here! The end-of-the-world ploy has been used by cult leaders for eons. It glues the group together while they go forward to do whatever their meglomaniac leader wants them to do. > This brings up the question I've always had. How can all these Masters be speaking through these individuals with different tones, language and even information? Who's got the real Masters? Are these faux Masters really cast off floating astral bodies making mischief? Or disembodied spirits masquerading as Coot Huumi? Or any of the other dead-but-wise- guys on the invisible telephone? Who can tell who is real out there? Surely, there's a certain amount of discernment on the part of the listener, to see if the voice tells one to jump off the roof or go to the library. This is a dangerous game here, one I have played myself. I have a friend who once belonged to the I AM. He was a little skeptical, but one year he got a Christmas card through I AM from Jesus. He said that was just too much and resigned. -A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:58:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Masters Speak TODAY? Message-ID: <970709135608_-1729012274@emout19.mail.aol.com> The world is not going to end no matter what anyone says, at least not in the forseeable future. I am never that lucky. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 97 18:01:33 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Very Hot Topic - Sacred Languages! Meru Foundation Message-ID: >From Meru Foundation FAQ: Research is currently focused on the connection between the vortex, the human hand, and the language centers of the brain, and their relationship to human consciousness. The vortex made to the size of a hand fits on a hand like a glove, allowing the wearer to tip the hand in 27 different directions to see each letter. He or she can then spell out the letters of the text, internalize the sacred meanings, and under some circumstances, may be able to re-experience, for example, Moses' encounter with the burning bush. Since the vortex also generates Greek and Arabic, and possibly Sanskrit, MERU believes it may have discovered the elements of a natural universal language, the pre-Babel language. However, Hebrew is the only modern language whose sacred texts still retain the original purity of form, from which the letter-vortex can mathematically be generated. MERU believes that this sacred alphabet, which is common to the three Abrahamic religions, can help promote unity and peace among the peoples of those three faiths. For further information the reader is invited to contact MERU Foundation directly at P.O. Box 503, Sharon, MA 02067; 617-784-8902. Keith Price: I heard someone on the radio and checked out the Meru Foundation Web page. This should be of interest (if it isn't already) to all that profess to have insights into kabala, astrology, tarot and sacred languages. Although Senzar isn't mentioned (no surprise!) I think many will find very interesting that so much work is going on in so many quarters to reconstruct the Ancient Wisdom not as a topic for specualtion and analysis, but for practical use. I am sure some have hinted that they alreay use many systems as practical guides in contacting the higher levels. I am trying to choose my words carefully as not to get back in the sensational mode I was in last fall. The point is that I have had an intuition that there are many who have made a grand synthesis through the revival of archelogical finds and oral knowledge passed on secretly as to the ability to bring down great enegies from realms before called symbolic or mythic. I have also suggested that there is a lot of secret encoding of this knowledge and many are being subconsciously manipulated by this. More than this I dare not say. I will let others check it our for themselves. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 18:19:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: Re: THEOS-BUDS 244 - new leaves vs stagnation Message-ID: <199707091619.SAA02559@euronet.nl> Einar wrote: >Of course there is nothing new under the sun, concerning the perennial wisdom, but we need ever new approaches to it, not because of the wisdom, but because of our nature of mental stagnation in the forms - any forms. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Indeed, I have found that there exists a tremendous amount of crystallized thinking respecting theosophical teachings with many individuals and theosophical organisations as a whole. Einar> It is therfore of paramount importance that we can speak the 'truth' in a fresh way at all times. In other words, creativity is of paramount importance. Let your thoughts flow freely and you will find new ways of expressing old truths, as well as ways of elaborating on the Ancient teachings. Murray wrote: The heart of the wisdom is timeless but we >must be open to new expressions of it, to avoid fossilization ourselves. If >fresh leaves didn't keep coming out of the branch, you'd wonder if the sap >was still flowing. I agree totally. That's why I have started to popularize Vitvan's teachings on the internet. These teachings add dynamics to one's life and provide a more scientific framework for the perennial wisdom. People tend to 'get' the essentials faster by studying his clear theory of perception/evaluation of events, relations, etc. (based on Korzybski's science of general semantics, but larger in scope). Kaballah is yet another framework that casts light on esoteric matters - see e.g. Alan Bain's ~Keys to Kaballah~ on my homepage. Whatever insight one has into life can be used in daily life, teaching, etc. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:04:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: New leaves vs. stagnation Message-ID: <199707092004.WAA04445@euronet.nl> Einar wrote: >Of course there is nothing new under the sun, concerning the perennial wisdom, but we need ever new approaches to it, not because of the wisdom, but because of our nature of mental stagnation in the forms - any forms. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Indeed, I have found that there exists a tremendous amount of crystallized thinking respecting theosophical teachings with many individuals and theosophical organisations as a whole. Einar> It is therfore of paramount importance that we can speak the 'truth' in a fresh way at all times. In other words, creativity is of paramount importance. Let your thoughts flow freely and you will find new ways of expressing old truths, as well as ways of elaborating on the Ancient teachings. Murray wrote: The heart of the wisdom is timeless but we >must be open to new expressions of it, to avoid fossilization ourselves. If >fresh leaves didn't keep coming out of the branch, you'd wonder if the sap >was still flowing. I agree totally. That's why I have started to popularize Vitvan's teachings on the internet. These teachings add dynamics to one's life and provide a more scientific framework for the perennial wisdom. People tend to 'get' the essentials faster by studying his clear theory of perception/evaluation of events, relations, etc. (based on Korzybski's science of general semantics, but larger in scope). Kaballah is yet another framework that casts light on esoteric matters - see e.g. Alan Bain's ~Keys to Kaballah~ on my homepage. Whatever insight one has into life can be used in daily life, teaching, etc. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:35:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Masters Speak TODAY? Message-ID: In message <199707091243.IAA08698@marconi.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >This brings up the question I've always had. How can all these Masters >be speaking through these individuals with different tones, language and >even information? Who's got the real Masters? Are these faux >Masters really cast off floating astral bodies making mischief? Or disembodied >spirits masquerading as Coot Huumi? Or any of the other dead-but-wise- >guys on the invisible telephone? Who can tell who is real out there? Seeing that you asked .... On the earth plane - the feet on the ground one - there are a great many "Masters" of this or that, often bearing the letters M.A. or M.Sc. after their names. Some go on to become specialists in their chosen fields, and we call them "experts" (if they're good enough). In theosophical jargon, but on a different plane or level, they are called "Masters" after another manner. In my humble but extensive experience, they ARE dead-but-wise-guys (or gals) on the other end of an invisible telephone, to adopt your analogy. However, in the same way as it's no use asking an expert on geology questions about the feeding requirements of newts, we have to get to the right source for the answers to the questions we have at the time of asking. IOW, I am saying that there ARE discarnate intelligences who can inform us about all sorts of things (usually esoteric or spiritual, but sometimes historical) - but NONE of them is all-wise, all-knowing, etc., etc. There does not seem to be any "Inner government of the World" or "Great White (Pink, Red, Black) Brother- or Sister- hood" or indeed any hierarchy that we could recognise as such. It does seem that they can refer us to another source if necessary when the particular phone line doesn't have the info required. As to how we go about doing this - well that's another story, and not suitable (IMO) for a public forum such as this, as misunderstandings and personalities would interfere something chronic. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:57:42 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: URL Info - Spanish Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970711025742.0070ac38@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is some useful information from Rudolfo Don. Again, this shows that pioneering work is always done by enterpreneurs and not organizations, while the latter may do very routine tasks very well. Thanks to Rudy. ============================================================= I have the first page about the Theosophical Society in Spanish in the web. The URL for the Spanish web page is: http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/ST.html ============================================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:20:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Registration Message-ID: WELCOME to TI! Alan ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Kindly register my name as a member of Theosophycal Society International. Thank you. My E-mail: ranjanf@sri.lanka.net. K.A.R. Fernando. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:20:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Masters Speak TODAY? Message-ID: <970711142020_1623116081@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-10 19:14:00 EDT, you write: >I have a friend who once belonged to the I AM. He was a little >skeptical, but one year he got a Christmas card through I AM from >Jesus. He said that was just too much and resigned. > > That is very strange. One would think they would have given him Jesus' address so he could send Jesus a birthday card. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:14:49 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: TS Organization - Part 4 of 4 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970712191449.006fffb0@mail.eden.com> Part 4 of 4 ================ Verily it is easier to destroy than to build. The words "untheosophical" and "unbrotherly" are ever ringing in our ears; yet, truly theosophical acts and words are not to be found in too unreasonable a super-abundance among those who use the reproof the oftener. However insignificant, and however limited the line of good deeds, the latter will have always more weight than empty and vainglorious talk, and will be theosophy, whereas theories without any practical realisation are at best philosophy. Theosophy is an all-embracing Science; many are the ways leading to it, as numerous in fact as its definitions, which began by the sublime, during the day of Ammonius Saccas, and ended by the ridiculous--in Webster's Dictionary. There is no reason why our critics should claim the right for themselves alone to know what is theosophy and to define it. There were theosophists and Theosophical Schools for the last 2,000 years, from Plato down to the mediµval Alchemists, who knew the value of the term, it may be supposed. Therefore, when we are told that "The question is not whether the T.S. is doing good, but whether it is doing that kind of good which is entitled to the name of Theosophy"--we turn round and ask: "And who is to be the judge in this mooted question?" We have heard of one of the greatest Theosophists who ever lived, who assured his audience that whosoever gave a cup of cold water to a little one in his [Theosophy's] name, would have a greater reward than all the learned Scribes and Pharisees. "Woe to the world because of offences!" Belief in the Masters was never made an article of faith in the T.S. But for its Founders, the commands received from Them when it was established have ever been sacred. And this is what one of them wrote in a letter preserved to this day: "Theosophy must not represent merely a collection of moral verities, a bundle of metaphysical Ethics epitomized in theoretical dissertations. Theosophy must be made practical, and has, therefore, to be disencumbered of useless discussion. . . . It has to find objective expression in an all-embracing code of life thoroughly impregnated with its spirit--the spirit of mutual tolerance, charity and love. Its followers have to set the example of a firmly outlined and as firmly applied morality before they get the right to point out, even in a spirit of kindness, the absence of a like ethic Unity and singleness of purpose in other associations and individuals. As said before--no Theosophist should blame a brother whether within or outside of the association, throw a slur upon his actions or denounce him11lest he should himself lose the right of being considered a theosophist. Ever turn away your gaze from the imperfections of your neighbor and centre rather your attention upon your own shortcomings in order to correct them and become wiser. . . . Show not the disparity between claim and action in another man but--whether he be brother or neighbour--rather help him in his arduous walk in life. . . . "The problem of true theosophy and its great mission is the working out of clear, unequivocal conceptions of ethic ideas and duties which would satisfy most and best the altruistic and right feelings in us; and the modeling of these conceptions for their adaptation into such forms of daily life where they may be applied with most equitableness. . . . Such is the common work in view for all who are willing to act on these principles. It is a laborious task and will require strenuous and persevering exertion, but it must lead you insensibly to progress and leave no room for any selfish aspirations outside the limits traced. . . . Do not indulge in unbrotherly comparisons between the task accomplished by yourself and the work left undone by your neighbor or brother, in the field of Theosophy, as none is held to weed out a larger plot of ground than his strength and capacity will permit him. . . . Do not be too severe on the merits or demerits of one who seeks admission among your ranks, as the truth about the actual state of the inner man can only be known to, and dealt with justly by KARMA alone. Even the simple presence amidst you of a well-intentioned and sympathizing individual may help you magnetically. . . . You are the Free-workers in the Domain of Truth, and as such, must leave no obstructions on the paths leading to it." . . . {The letter closes with the following lines which have now become quite plain, as they give the key to the whole situation} . . . "The degrees of success or failure are the landmark we shall have to follow as they will constitute the barriers placed with your own hands between yourselves and those whom you have asked to be your teachers. The nearer your approach to the goal contemplated--the shorter the distance between the student and the Master." . . . A complete answer is thus found in the above lines to the paper framed by the two Theosophists. Those who are now inclined to repudiate the Hand that traced it and feel ready to turn their backs upon the whole Past and the original programme of the T.S. are at liberty to do so. The Theosophical body is neither a Church or a Sect and every individual opinion is entitled to a hearing. A Theosophist may progress and develop, and his views may outgrow those of the Founders, grow larger and broader in every direction, without for all that abandoning the fundamental soil upon which they were born and nurtured. It is only he who changes diametrically his opinions from one day to another and shifts his devotional views from white to black--who can be hardly trusted in his remarks and actions. But surely, this can never be the case of the two Theosophists who have now been answered. . . . Meanwhile, peace and fraternal good will to all. H. P. BLAVATSKY Corres. Sec'ty, T.S. Ostende, Oct. 3rd, 1886 Theosophist, June, 1924 ----------------------------------------------- * These opening words enclosed in brackets were presumably on the first manuscript page by H.P.B., which was lost, but they were later restored from a typed copy at Adyar and included in the August 1931 reprinting of the article in the Theosophist.-- Eds . [1] A liberal Christian member of the T.S. having objected to the study of Oriental religions and doubted whether there was room left for any new Society--a letter answering his objections and preference to Christianity was received and the contents copied for him; after which he denied no longer the advisability of such a Society as the professed Theosophical Association, A few extracts from this early letter will show plainly the nature of the Society as then contemplated, and that we have tried only to follow, and carry out in the best way we could the intentions of the true originators of the Society in those days. The pious gentleman having claimed that he was a theosophist and had a right of judgment over other people was told . . . "You have no right to such a title. You are only a philo-theosophist; as one who has reached to the full comprehension of the name and nature of a theosophist will sit in judgment on no man or action. . . . You claim that your religion is the highest and final step toward divine Wisdom on this earth, and that it has introduced into the arteries of the old decaying world new blood and life and verities that had remained unknown to the heathen? If it were so indeed, then your religion would have introduced the highest truths into all the social, civil and international relations of Christendom. Instead of that, as any one can perceive, your social as your private life is not based upon a common moral solidarity but only on constant mutual counteraction and purely mechanical equilibrium of individual powers and interests. . . . If you would be a theosophist you must not do as those around you do who call on a God of Truth and Love and serve the dark Powers of Might, Greed and Luck. We look in the midst of your Christian civilisation and see the same sad signs of old: the realities of your daily lives are diametrically opposed to your religious ideal, but you feel it not; the thought that the very laws that govern your being whether in the domain of politics or social economy clash painfully with the origins of your religion--does not seem to trouble you in the least. But if the nations of the West are so fully convinced that the ideal can never become practical and the practical will never reach the ideal--then, you have to make your choice: either it is your religion that is impracticable, and in that case it is no better than a vain-glorious delusion, or it might find a practical application, but it is you, yourselves, who do not care to apply its ethics to your daily walk in life. . . . Hence, before you invite other nations 'to the King's festival table' from which your guests arise more starved than before, you should, ere you try to bring them to your own way of thinking, look into the repasts they offer to you. . . . Under the dominion and sway of exoteric creeds, the grotesque and tortured shadows of the theosophical realities, there must ever be the same oppression of the weak and the poor and the same typhonic struggle of the wealthy and the mighty among themselves. . . . It is esoteric philosophy alone, the spiritual and psychic blending of man with Nature that, by revealing fundamental truths, can bring that much desired mediate state between the two extremes of human Egotism and divine Altruism and finally lead to the alleviation of human suffering. . . " (See next to last page for continuation. [See p. 35.]) [2] Mr. Cobb. [3] For years the wise rule by which any member accused of backbiting or slander was expelled from the Society after sufficient evidence--has become obsolete. There have been two or three solitary cases of expulsion for the same in cases of members of no importance. Europeans of position and name were allowed to cover the Society literally with mud and slander their Brothers with perfect impunity. This is the President's Karma--and it is just. [4] This may be a reference to the legal term, querela, for "bill of complaint"; Gebhard being in Germany, the "Allemand" is clear.--Eds THEOSOPHY. [5]Furthermore the writer of the complaints in "A Few Words, etc.," is himself a member on the General Council for over two years (see Rules 1885). Why has he not spoken earlier? [6] Yet, the Theosophical Brotherhood does seem doomed to outrival the group of Apostles in the number of its denying Peters. its unbelieving Thomases, and even Iscariots occasionally, ready to sell their Brotherhood for less than thirty sheckels of silver! [7] The members of the T.S. know, and those who do not should be told, that the term ' Mahatma," now so subtly analysed and controverted, for some mysterious reasons had never been applied to our Masters before our arrival in India. For years they were known as the "Adept-Brothers," the "Masters," etc. It is the Hindus themselves who began applying the term to the two Teachers, This is no place for an etymological disquisition on the fitness or unfitness of the qualification, in the case in hand. As a state Mahatmaship is one thing, as a double noun, Maha-atma (Great Soul) quite another one. Hindus ought to know the value of metaphysical Sanskrit names used; and it is they the first, who have used it to designate the MASTERS. [8] XIV "The Society having to deal only with scientific and philosophical subjects, and having Branches in divergent parts of the world under various forms of Government, does not permit its members such, to interfere with politics, and repudiates any attempt on the part of any one to commit it in favor of or against any political party or measure. Violation of this rule will meet with expulsion." This rather alters the co complexion put on the charge, which seems to conveniently forget that "scientific and philosophical subjects" are not the only declared objects of the Society. Let us not leave room for a doubt that there is more animus underlying the charges than would he strictly theosophical. [9] It is the first time since the T.S. exists that such an accusation of "arbitrary power," is brought forward. Not many will be found of this way of thinking. [10] No need taking a roundabout way, to say that no Brotherhood would ever be possible if many theosophists shared the very original views of the writer. [11] It is in consequence of this letter that Art. XII was adopted in Rules and a fear of lacking the charity prescribed, that led so often to neglect its enforcement. ================end of part 4 of 4 ================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:17:40 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: TS Organization - Part 3 of 4 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970712191740.0070e9e8@mail.eden.com> Part 3 of 4 Yet it would be well, perchance, were our members to follow the example of the Masons in their solidarity of thought and action and at least outward Union, notwithstanding that receiving a thousand times more from their members they give them in return still less than we do, whether spiritually or morally. This solitary single guinea expected from every new member is spent in less than one week, as was calculated, on postage and correspondence with theosophists. Or are we to understand that all correspondence with members--now left to "self-culture"--is also to cease and has to follow diplomas, Charters and the rest? Then, truly, the Head Quarters and Office had better be closed. A simple Query--however: Have the ...;--the yearly contribution to the L.L. of the T.S., and the further sum of 2/6d. to the Oriental Group been abolished as "acts of unbrotherly extortion," and how long, if so, have they begun to be regarded as "a sale of Brotherhood"? To continue: the charges wind up with the following remarks, so profound, that it requires a deeper head than ours to fathom all that underlies the words contained in them. "Is the T.S. a Brotherhood, or not?" queries the plaintiff--"If the former, is it possible to have any centre of arbitrary power?[*9] To hold that there is necessity for such a centre is only a roundabout way of saying that no Brotherhood is possible,[*10] but in point of fact that necessity itself is by no means proved {!?}. There have been no doubt Brotherhoods under high Masters. . . ." {there "have been" and still are. H.P.B.] "but in such cases the Masters were never elected for geographical or other considerations {?}. The natural leader of men was always recognised by his embodying the spirit of Humanity. To institute comparisons would be little short of blasphemy. The greatest among men is always the readiest to serve and yet is unconscious of the service. Let us pause before finally tying the millstone of worldliness around the neck of Theosophy. Let us not forget that Theosophy does not grow in our midst by force and control but by sunshine of brotherliness and the dew of self-oblivion. If we do not believe in Brotherhood and Truth let us put ashes on our head and weep in sack-cloth and not rejoice in the purple of authority and in the festive garments of pride and worldliness. It is by far better that the name of Theosophy should never be heard, than that it should be used as the Motto of a papal authority." . . . Who, upon reading this, and being ignorant that the above piece of rhetorical flowers of speech is directed against the luckless Pres't Founder--would not have in his "mind's eye"--an Alexander Borgia, a Caligula, or to say the least--General Booth in his latest metamorphosis! When, how, or by doing what, has our good-natured unselfish, ever kind President merited such a Ciceronian tirade? The state of things denounced exists now for almost twelve years, and our accuser knew of it and even took an active part in its organisation, Conventions, Councils, Rules, etc., etc., at Bombay, and at Adyar. This virulent sortie is no doubt due to "SELF-CULTURE"? The critic has outgrown the Movement and turned his face from the original programme; hence his severity. But where is the true theosophical charity, the tolerance and the "sunshine .,f brotherliness" just spoken of, and so insisted upon? Verily--it is easy to preach the "dew of self-oblivion" when one has nothing to think about except to evolve such finely rounded phrases; were every theosophist at Adyar to have his daily wants and even comforts, his board, lodging and all, attended to by a wealthier theosophist; and were the same "sunshine of brotherliness" to be poured upon him, as it is upon the critic who found for himself an endless brotherly care, a fraternal and self-sacrificing devotion in two other noble-minded members, then--would there be little need for the President Founder to call upon and humble himself before our theosophists. For, if he has to beg for 2 annual shillings--it is, in order that those--Europeans and Hindus --who work night and day at Adyar, giving their services free and receiving little thanks or honour for it, should have at least one meal a day. The fresh "dew of self-oblivion" must not be permitted to chill one's heart, and turn into the lethal mold of forgetfulness to such an extent as that. The severe critic seems to have lost sight of the fact that for months, during the last crisis, the whole staff of our devoted Adyar officers, from President down to the youngest brother in the office, have lived on 5d. a day each, having reduced their meals to the minimum. And it is this mite, the proceeds of the "2 shill. contribution," conscientiously paid by some, that is now called extortion, a desire to live "in the purple of authority and the festive garments of pride and worldliness"! Our "Brother" is right. Let us "weep in sack cloth and ashes on our head" if the T.S. has many more such unbrotherly criticisms to bear. Truly "it would be far better that the name of Theosophy should never be heard than that it should be used as a motto"--not of papal authority which exists nowhere at Adyar outside the critic's imagination--but as a motto of a "self-developed fanaticism." All the great services otherwise rendered to the Society, all the noble work done by the complainant will pale and vanish before such an appearance of cold-heartedness. Surely he cannot desire the annihilation of the Society? And if he did it would be useless: the T.S. cannot be destroyed as a body. It is not in the power of either Founders or their critics; and neither friend nor enemy can ruin that which is doomed to exist, all the blunders of its leaders notwithstanding. That which was generated through and founded by the "High Masters" and under their authority if not their instruction--MUST AND WILL LIVE. Each of us and all will receive his or her Karma in it, but the vehicle of Theosophy will stand indestructible and undestroyed by the hand of whether man or fiend. No; "truth does not depend on show of hands"; but in the case of the much abused President-Founder it must depend on the show of facts. Thorny and full of pitfalls was the steep path he had to climb up alone and unaided for the first years. Terrible was the opposition outside the Society he had to build--sickening and disheartening the treachery he often encountered within the Head Quarters. Enemies gnashing their teeth in his face around, those whom he regarded as his staunchest friends and co-workers betraying him and the Cause on the slightest provocation. Still, where hundreds in his place would have collapsed and given up the whole undertaking in despair, he, unmoved and unmovable, went on climbing up and toiling as before, unrelenting and undismayed, supported by that one thought and conviction that he was doing his duty. What other inducement has the Founder ever had, but his theosophical pledge and the sense of his duty toward THOSE he had promised to serve to the end of his life? There was but one beacon for him--the hand that had first pointed to him his way up: the hand of the MASTER he loves and reveres so well, and serves so devotedly though occasionally, perhaps, unwisely. As President elected for life, he has nevertheless offered more than once to resign in favour of any one found worthier than him, but was never permitted to do so by the majority--not of "show of hands" but show of hearts, literally--as few are more beloved than he is even by most of those, who may criticize occasionally his actions. And this is only natural: for, cleverer in administrative capacities, more learned in philosophy, subtler in casuistry, in metaphysics or daily life policy, there may be many around him; but the whole globe may be searched through and through and no one found stauncher to his friends, truer to his word, or more devoted to real, practical theosophy--than the President-Founder; and these are the chief requisites in a leader of such a movement--one that aims to become a Brotherhood of men. The Society needs no Loyolas; it has to shun anything approaching casuistry; nor ought we to tolerate too subtle casuists. There, where every individual has to work out his own Karma, the judgment of a casuist who takes upon himself the duty of pronouncing upon the state of a brother's soul, or of guiding his conscience, is of no use, and may become positively injurious. The Founder claims no more rights than every one else in the Society: the right of private judgment, which, whenever it is found to disagree with Branches or individuals is quietly set aside and ignored--as shown by the complainants themselves. This, then, is the sole crime of the would-be culprit, and no worse than this can be laid at his door. And yet what is the reward of that kind man? He, who has never refused a service, outside what he considers his official duties--to any living being; he who has redeemed dozens of men, young and old, from dissipated, often immoral lives and saved others from terrible scrapes by giving them a safe refuge in the Society; he, who has placed others again, on the pinnacle of Saintship through their status in that Society, when otherwise they would have indeed found themselves now in the meshes of "worldliness" and perhaps worse;--he, that true friend of every theosophist, and verily "the readiest to serve and as unconscious of the service"--he is now taken to task for what?--for insignificant blunders, for useless "special orders," a childish, rather than untheosophical love of display, out of pure devotion to his Society. Is, then, human nature to be viewed so uncharitably by us, as to call untheosophical, worldly and sinful the natural impulse of a mother to dress up her child and parade it to the best advantages? The comparison may be laughed at, but if it is, it will be only by him who would, like the fanatical Christian of old, or the naked, dishevelled Yogi of India--have no more charity for the smallest human weakness. Yet, the simile is quite correct, since the Society is the child, the beloved creation of the Founder; he may be well forgiven for this too exaggerated love for that for which he has suffered and toiled more than all other theosophists put together. He is called "worldly," "ambitious of power" and untheosophical for it. Very well; let then any impartial judge compare the life of the Founder with those of most of his critics, and see which was the most theosophical, ever since the Society sprang into existence. If no better results have been achieved, it is not the President who ought to be taken to task for it, but the Members themselves, as he has been ever trying to promote its growth, and the majority of the "Fellows" have either done nothing, or created obstacles in the way of its progress through sins of omission as of commission. Better unwise activity, than an overdose of too wise inactivity, apathy or indifference which are always the death of an undertaking. Nevertheless, it is the members who now seek to sit in Solomon's seat; and they tell us that the Society is useless, its President positively mischievous, and that the Head-Quarters ought to be done away with, as "the organisation called Theosophical presents many feature seriously obstructive to the progress of Theosophy." Trees, however, have to be judged by their fruits. It was just shown that no "special orders" issuing from the "Centre of Power" called Adyar, could affect in any way whatever either Branch or individual; and therefore any theosophist bent on "self culture," "self-involution" or any kind of selfness, is at liberty to do so; and if, instead of using his rights he will apply his brain-power to criticize other people's actions then it is he who becomes the obstructionist and not at all the "Organisation called Theosophical." For, if theosophy is anywhere practised on this globe, it is at Adyar, at the Head-Quarters. Let "those interested in the progress of true theosophy" appealed to by the writers look around them and judge. See the Branch Societies and compare them with the group that works in that "Centre of Power." Admire the "progress of theosophy" at Paris, London and even America. Behold, in the great "Brotherhood," a true Pandemonium of which the Spirit of Strife and Hatred himself might be proud! Everywhere--quarreling, fighting for supremacy; backbiting, slandering, scandal-mongering for the last two years; a veritable battlefield, on which several members have so disgraced themselves and their Society by trying to disgrace others, that they have actually become more like hyenas than human beings by digging into the graves of the Past, in the hopes of bringing forward old forgotten slanders and scandals! At Adyar alone, at the Head-Quarters of the Theosophical Society, the Theosophists are that which they ought to be everywhere else: true theosophists and not merely philosophers and Sophists. In that centre alone are now grouped together the few solitary, practically working Members, who labour and toil, quietly and uninterruptedly, while those Brothers for whose sake they are working, sit in the dolce far niente of the West and criticize them. Is this "true theosophical and brotherly work," to advise to put down and disestablish the only "centre" where real brotherly, humanitarian work is being accomplished? "Theosophy first, and organisation after." Golden words, these. But where would Theosophy be heard of now, had not its Society been organised before its spirit and a desire for it had permeated the whole world? And would Vedanta and other Hindu philosophies have been ever taught and studied in England outside the walls of Oxford and Cambridge, had it not been for that organization that fished them like forgotten pearls out of the Ocean of Oblivion and Ignorance and brought them forward before the profane world? Nay, kind Brothers and critics, would the Hindu exponents of that sublime philosophy themselves have ever been known outside the walls of Calcutta, had not the Founders, obedient to the ORDERS received, forced the remarkable learning and philosophy of those exponents upon the recognition of the two most civilized and cultured centres of Europe--London and Paris? =================== end of part 3 of 4 ===================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:19:35 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: TS Organization - Part 2 of 4 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970712191935.006fb91c@mail.eden.com> Part 2 of 4 III. "The members are appointed by the President-Founder. . . ." it is complained; "the Gen. Council only advises on what is submitted to it" . . . and "in the meantime" that P.F. is empowered to issue "special orders" and "provisional rules," on behalf of that ("dummy") Council. (Rule IV, p. 20.) Moreover, it is urged that out of a number of 150 members of the G. Council, a quorum of 5 and even 3 members present, may, should it be found necessary by the President, decide upon any question of vital importance, etc., etc., etc. Such an "untheosophical" display of authority, is objected to by Messrs. M. M. Chatterji and A. Gebhard on the ground that it leads the Society to Caesarism, to "tyranny" and "papal infallibility," etc., etc. However right the two complainants may be in principle it is impossible to fail seeing the absurd exaggerations of the epithets used; for, having just been accused on one page of "tyrannical authority," of "centralization of power" and a "papal institution" (p. 9)--on page 11, the President-Founder is shown "issuing special orders" from that "centre of Caesarism"--which no one is bound to obey, unless he so wishes! "It is well known" remarks the principal writer--"that not only individuals but even Branches have refused to pay this (annual) subscription . . . of . . . two shillings" (p. 11 ); without any bad effect for themselves, resulting out of it, as appears. Thus, it would seem it is not to a non-existent authority that objections should be made, but simply to a vain and useless display of power that no one cares for. The policy of issuing "special orders" with such sorry results is indeed objectionable; only, not on the ground of a tendency to Caesarism, but simply because it becomes highly ridiculous. The undersigned for one, has many a time objected to it, moved however, more by a spirit of worldly pride and an untheosophical feeling of self-respect than anything like Yogi humility. It is admitted with regret that the world of scoffers and non-theosophists might, if they heard of it, find in it a capital matter for fun. But the real wonder is, how can certain European Theosophists, who have bravely defied the world to make them wince under any amount of ridicule, once they acted in accordance with the dictates of their conscience and duty--make a crime of what is at the worst a harmless, even if ridiculous, bit of vanity; a desire of giving importance--not to the Founder, but to his Society for which he is ready to die any day. One kind of ridicule is worth another. The Western theosophist, who for certain magnetic reasons wears his hair long and shows otherwise eccentricity in his dress, will be spared no more than his President, with his "special orders." Only the latter, remaining as kindly disposed and brotherly to the "individual Theosophist and even a Branch"--that snub him and his "order," by refusing to pay what others do--shows himself ten-fold more Theosophical an(1 true to the principle of Brotherhood, than the former, who traduces and denounces him in such uncharitable terms, instead of kindly warning him of the bad effect produced. Unfortunately, it is not those who speak the loudest of virtue and theosophy, who are the best examplars of both. Few of them, if any, have tried to cast out the beam from their own eye, before they raised their voices against the mote in the eye of a brother. Furthermore, it seems to have become quite the theosophical rage in these days, to denounce vehemently, yet never to offer to help pulling out any such motes. The Society is bitterly criticized for asking every well-to-do theosophist (the poor are exempt from it, from the first) to pay annually two shillings to help defraying the expenses at Head-Quarters. It is denounced as "untheosophical," "unbrotherly," and the "admission fee" of £1, is declared no better than "a sale of Brotherhood." In this our "Brotherhood" may be shown again on a far higher level than any other association past or present. The Theosophical Society has never shown the ambitious pretension to outshine in theosophy and brotherliness, the primitive Brotherhood of Jesus and his Apostles, [*6] and that "Organisation," besides asking and being occasionally refused, helped itself without asking, and as a matter of fact in a real community of Brothers. Nevertheless, such actions, that would seem highly untheosophical and prejudicial in our day of culture when nations alone are privileged to pocket each other's property and expect to be honoured for it--do not seem to have been an obstacle in the way of deification and sanctification of the said early "Brotherly" group. Our Society had never certainly any idea of rising superior to the brotherliness and ethics preached by Christ, but only to those of the sham Christianity of the Churches--as originally ordered to by our MASTERS. And if we do no worse than the Gospel Brotherhood did, and far better than any Church, which would expel any member refusing too long to pay his Church rates, it is really hard to see why our "Organisation" should be ostracized by its own members. At any rate, the pens of the latter ought to show themselves less acerb, in these days of trouble when every one seems bent on finding fault with the Society, and few to help it, and that the President-Founder is alone to work and toil with a few devoted theosophists at Adyar to assist him. IV. "There is no such institution in existence as the Parent Society"--we are told (pp. 2 and 3). "It has disappeared from the Rules and . . . has no legal existence" . . . The Society being unchartered, it has not--legally; but no more has any Theosophist a legal existence, for the matter of that. Is there one single member throughout the whole globe who would be recognised by law or before a Magistrate--as a theosophist? Why then do the gentlemen "complainants" call themselves "theosophists" if the latter qualification has no better legal standing than the said "Parent Society" of the Head Quarters itself? But the Parent-body does exist, and will, so long as the last man or woman of the primitive group of Theosophist Founders is alive. This--as a body; as for its moral characteristics, the Parent-Society means that small nucleus of theosophists who hold sacredly through storm and blows to the original programme of the T.S., as established under the direction and orders of those, whom they recognise--and will, to their last breath--as the real originators of the Movement, their living, Holy MASTERS ANDTEACHERS.[*7] V. The complaints then, that the T.S. "has Laws without sanction," a "legislative body without legality," a "Parent Society without existence," and, worse than all--"a President above all rules"--are thus shown only partially correct. But even were they all absolutely true, it would be easy to abolish such rules with one stroke of the pen, or to modify them. But now comes the curious part of that severe philippic against the T.S. by our eloquent Demosthenes. After six pages (out of twelve) had been filled with the said charges, the writer admits on the 7th,--that they have been so modified!--"The above" we learn (rather late) "was written under misapprehension that the 'Rules' bearing date 1885--were the latest. It has since been found that there is a later version of the Rules dated 1886 which have modified the older rules on a great many points." So much the better.--Why recall, in such case, mistakes in the past if these exist no longer? But the accusers do not see it in this light. They are determined to act as a theosophical Nemesis; and in no way daunted by the discovery, they add that nevertheless "it is necessary to examine the earlier rules to ascertain the underlying principle, which rules through the present ones as well." This reminds of the fable of "the Wolf and the Lamb." But--you see--"the chief point is, that the Convention has no power to make any rules, as such a power is opposed to the spirit of Theosophy," . . . etc., etc. Now this is the most extraordinary argument that could be made. At this rate no Brotherhood, no Association, no Society is possible. More than this; no theosophist, however holy his present life may be, would have the right to call himself one; for were it always found necessary to examine his earlier life, "to ascertain the underlying principle" which rules through the nature of the present man--ten to one, he would be found unfit to be called a theosophist! The experiment would hardly be found pleasant to the majority of those whom association with the T.S. has reformed; and of such there are a good many. After such virulent and severe denunciations one might expect some good, friendly and theosophically practical advice. Not at all, and none is offered, since we have been already told (p. 9) that it would be "out of place to suggest any specific measures, as no one who has any faith in Brotherhood--and in the power of Truth will fail to perceive what is necessary." The President-Founder has no faith in either "Brotherhood," or "the power of Truth"--apparently. This is made evident by his having failed to perceive (a) that the Head Quarters--opened to all Theosophists of any race or social position, board and lodging free of charge the whole year round--was an unbrotherly Organisation; (b) that "the central office at Adyar for keeping records and concentrating information" with its European and Hindu inmates working gratuitously and some helping it with their own money whenever they have it--ought to be carried on, according to the method and principle of George Miller of Bristol, namely, the numerous households and staff of officers at Adyar headed by the Pres.-Founder ought to kneel every morning in prayer for their bread and milk, appealing for their meals to "miracle"; and that finally, and (c) all the good the Society is doing, is no good whatever but "a spiritual wrong," because it presumes to call a limited line of good work--(theosophy) Divine Wisdom." The undersigned is an ever patient theosophist, who has hitherto laboured under the impression that no amount of subtle scholasticism and tortured casuistry but would find like the Rosetta stone its Champollion--some day. The most acute among theosophists arc now invited to make out in A Few Words"--what the writers or writer--is driving at--unless in plain and unvarnished language, it be--Down with the Theosophical Society, President-Founder and its Head-Quarters!" This is the only possible explanation of the twelve pages of denunciations to which a reply is now attempted. What can indeed be made out of the following jumble of contradictory statements: (a) The President Founder having been shown throughout as a "tyrant," a "would be Caesar," "aiming at papal power" and a "Venetian Council of Three," and other words to that effect implied in almost every sentence of the paper under review, it is confessed in the same breath that the "London Lodge" of the Theosophical Society has completely ignored the Rules (of the Pope Caesar) published at Adyar! (p. 4) And yet, the "L.L. of the T.S." still lives and breathes and one has heard of no anathema pronounced against it, so far. . . . (b) Rule XIV stating that the Society has "to deal only with scientific and philosophical subjects," hence, "it is quite evident {?} that the power and position claimed in the Rules for the P't Founder and the Gen. Council and Convention are opposed to the spirit of the declared Objects." It might have been as well perhaps to quote the entire paragraph in which these words appear,[*8] once that hairs are split about the possibly faulty reaction of the Rules? Is it not self-evident, that the words brought forward "only with scientific and philosophical subjects" are inserted as a necessary caution to true theosophists, who by dealing with politics within any Branch Society might bring disgrace and ruin on the whole body--in India to begin with? Has the Society or has it not over 140 Societies scattered through four parts of the world to take care of? As in the case of "Mahatmas" and "Mahatmaship"--active work of the Theosophical Society is confused--willingly or otherwise, it is not for the writer to decide--with Theosophy. No need of entering here upon the difference between the jar that contains a liquid and the nature of, or that liquid itself. "Theosophy teaches self-culture . . . and not control," we are told. Theosophy teaches mutual-culture before self-culture to begin with. Union is strength. It is by gathering many theosophists of the same way of thinking into one or more groups, and making them closely united by the same magnetic bond of fraternal unity and sympathy that the objects of mutual development and progress in Theosophical thought may be best achieved. "Self-culture" is for isolated Hatha Yogis, independent of any Society and having to avoid association with human beings; and this is a triply distilled SELFISHNESS. For real moral advancement--there "where two or three are gathered" in the name of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH--there that Spirit or Theosophy will be in the midst of them. To say that theosophy has no need of a Society--a vehicle and centre thereof--is like affirming that the Wisdom of the Ages collected in thousands of volumes, at the British Museum has no need of either the edifice that contains it, nor the works in which it is found. Why not advise the British Gov't on its lack of discrimination and its worldliness in not destroying Museum and all its vehicles of Wisdom? Why spend such sums of money and pay so many officers to watch over its treasures, the more so, since many of its guardians may be quite out of keeping with, and opposed to the Spirit of that Wisdom? The Directors of such Museums may or may not be very perfect men, and some of their assistants may have never opened a philosophical work: yet, it is they who take care of the library and preserve it for future generations who are indirectly entitled to their thanks. How much more gratitude is due to those who like our self-sacrificing theosophists at Adyar, devote their lives to, and give their services gratuitously to the good of Humanity! Diplomas, and Charters are objected to, and chiefly the "admission fee." The latter is a "taxation," and therefore "inconsistent with the principle of Brotherhood". . . . A "forced gift is unbrotherly," etc., etc. It would be curious to see where the T.S. would be led to, were the P't. F. to religiously follow the proffered advices. "Initiation" on admission, has been made away with already in Europe, and has led to that which will very soon become known; no use mentioning it at present. Now the "Charters" and Diplomas would follow. Hence no document to show for any group, and no diploma to prove that one is affiliated to the Society. Hence also perfect liberty to any one to either call himself a theosophist, or deny he is one. The "admission fee"? Indeed, it has to be regarded as a terrible and unbrotherly "extortion," and a "forced gift," in the face of those thousands of Masonic Lodges, of Clubs, Associations, Societies, Leagues, and even the "Salvation Army." The former, extort yearly fortunes from their Members; the latter--throttle in the name of Jesus the masses and appealing to voluntary contributions make the converts pay, and pay in their turn every one of their "officers," none of whom will serve the "Army" for nothing. =============== end of part 2 of 4 ====================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:22:12 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: TS Organization - Part 1 of 4 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970712192212.0071ba50@mail.eden.com> Here is a very interesting article by HPB. Due to its size, it is posted in four parts. --------------------------------------------- THE ORGANlSATION OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY Article by H. P. Blavatsky [In order to leave no room for equivocation, the members of the T.S. have to be reminded of the origin of the Society in 1875. Sent to the U.S. of America in 1873 for the purpose of organizing a group of workers on a psychic plane, two years later the writer received orders from her Master and Teacher to form the nucleus of a regular Society whose objects were broadly stated as follows: (1) Universal Brotherhood; (2) No distinction to be made by the members between races, creeds, or social positions, but every member had to be judged and dealt by on his personal merits; (3) To study the philosophies of the East--those of India chiefly, presenting them gradually to the public in various works that would interpret exoteric religions in the light of esoteric teachings; (4) To oppose materialism and theological dogmatism in every possible way, by demonstrating the existence of occult forces unknown to Science, in Nature, and the presence of psychic and spiritual powers in Man; trying, at the same time, to enlarge the views of the Spiritualists by showing them that there are other, many other agencies at work in the production of phenomena besides the "Spirits" of the dead. Superstition had to be exposed and avoided; and occult forces, beneficent and maleficent- ever surrounding us and manifesting their presence in various ways--demonstrated to the best of our ability. Such was the programme in its broad features. The two chief Founders were not told what they had to do, how they had to bring about and quicken the growth of the Society and results desired; nor had they any definite ideas given them concerning the outward organisation--all this being left entirely with themselves. Thus, as the undersigned had no capacity for such work as the mechanical formation and administration of a Society, the management of the latter was left in the hands of Col. H. S. Olcott, then and there elected by the primitive founders and members--President for life. But if the two Founders were not told what they had to do, they were distinctly instructed about what they should never do, what they had to avoid, and what the Society should never become. Church organisations, Christian and Spiritual sects were shown as the future contrasts to our Society.[*1] To make it clearer: (1) The Founders had to exercise all their influence to oppose selfishness of any kind, by insisting upon sincere, fraternal feelings among the Members--at least outwardly; working for it to bring about a spirit of unity and harmony, the great diversity of creeds notwithstanding; expecting and demanding from the Fellows, a great mutual toleration and charity for each other's shortcomings; mutual help in the research of truths in every domain--moral or physical--and even in daily life. (2) They had to oppose in the strongest manner anything approaching dogmatic faith and fanaticism--belief in the infallibility of the Masters, or even in the very existence of our invisible Teachers, having to be checked from the first. On the other hand, as a great respect for the private views and creeds of every member was demanded, any Fellow criticising the faith or belief of another Fellow, hurting his feelings, or showing a reprehensible self-assertion, unasked (mutual friendly advices were a duty unless declined)--such a member incurred expulsion. The greatest spirit of free research untrammelled by anyone or anything, had to be encouraged. Thus, for the first year the Members of the T. Body, who representing every class in Society as every creed and belief--Christian clergymen, Spiritualists, Freethinkers, Mystics, Masons and Materialists--lived and met under these rules in peace and friendship. There were two or three expulsions for slander and backbiting. The rules, however imperfect in their tentative character, were strictly enforced and respected by the members. The original $5 initiation fee was soon abolished as inconsistent with the spirit of the Association: members had enthusiastically promised to support the Parent Society and defray the expenses of machines for experiments, books, the fees of the Recording Secretary, [*2] etc., etc. This was Reform No. 1. Three months after, Mr. H. Newton, the Treasurer, a rich gentleman of New York, showed that no one had paid anything or helped him to defray the current expenses for the Hall of meetings, stationery, printing, etc., and that he had to carry the burden of those expenses alone. He went on for a short time longer, then--he resigned as Treasurer. It was the President-Founder, Col. H. S. Olcott, who had to pay henceforth for all. He did so for over 18 months. The "fee" was re-established, before the Founders left for India with the two English delegates--now their mortal enemies; but the money collected was for the Arya Samaj of Aryavarta with which Society the Theosophical became affiliated. It is the President Founder who paid the enormous travelling expenses from America to India, and those of installation in Bombay, and who supported the two delegates out of his own pocket for nearly 18 months. When he had no more money left, nor the Corr. Secretary either--a resolution was passed that the "initiation fee" sums should go towards supporting the Head Quarters. Owing to the rapid increase of the Society in India, the present Rules and Statutes grew out. They are not the outcome of the deliberate thought and whim of the President Founder, but the result of the yearly meetings of the General Council at the Anniversaries. If the members of that G. C. have framed them so as to give a wider authority to the Pres. Founder, it was the result of their absolute confidence in him, in his devotion and love for the Society, and not at all--as implied in "A Few Words"--a proof of his love for power and authority. Of this, however, later on. It was never denied that the Organisation of the T.S. was very imperfect. Errare humanum est. But, if it can be shown that the President has done what he could under the circumstances and in the best way he knew how--no one, least of all a theosophist, can charge him with the sins of the whole community, as now done. From the founders down to the humblest member, the Society is composed of imperfect mortal men--not gods. This was always claimed by its leaders. "He who feels without sin, let him cast the first stone." It is the duty of every Member of the Council to offer advice and to bring for the consideration of the whole body any incorrect proceedings. One of the plaintiffs is a Councillor. Having never used his privileges as one, in the matter of the complaints now proffered--and thus, having no excuse to give that his just representations were not listened to, he, by bringing out publicly what he had to state first privately--sins against Rule XII. The whole paper now reads like a defamatory aspersion, being full of untheosophical and unbrotherly insinuations--which the writers thereof could never have had in view. This Rule XIIth was one of the first and the wisest. It is by neglecting to have it enforced when most needed, that the President-Founder has brought upon himself the present penalty. [*3] It is his too great indulgence and unwise carelessness that have led to all such charges of abuse of power, love of authority, show, of vanity, etc., etc. Let us see how far it may have been deserved. As shown for 12 years the Founder has toiled almost alone in the interests of the Society and the general good--hence, not his own, and, the only complaint he was heard to utter was, that he was left no time for self-development and study. The results of this too just complaint are, that those for whom he toiled, are the first to fling at him the reproach of being ignorant of certain Hindu terms, of using one term for another, for inst. of having applied the word "Jivanmukta" to a Hindu chela, on one occasion! The crime is a terrible one, indeed. . . . We know of "chelas" who being Hindus, are sure never to confuse such well known terms in their religion; but who, on the other hand, pursue Jivanmuktaship and the highest Theosophical Ethics through the royal road of selfish ambition, lies, slander, ingratitude and backbiting. Every road leads to Rome; this is evident; and there is such a thing in Nature as "Mahatma"-Dugpas. . . . It would be desirable for the cause of Theosophy and truth, however, were all the critics of our President in general, less learned, yet found reaching more to the level of his all-forgiving good nature, his thorough sincerity and unselfishness; as the rest of the members less inclined to lend a willing ear to those, who, like the said "Vicars of Bray" have developed a hatred for the Founders--for reasons unknown. The above advice is offered to the two Theosophists who have just framed their "Few Words on the Theosophical Organisation." That they are not alone in their complaints (which, translated from their diplomatic into plain language look a good deal in the present case like a mere "querelle[*4] d'Allemand") and that the said complaints are in a great measure just,--is frankly admitted. Hence, the writer must be permitted to speak in this, her answer, of Theosophy and theosophists in general, instead of limiting the Reply strictly to the complaints uttered. There is not the slightest desire to be personal; yet, there has accumulated of late such a mass of incandescent material in the Society, by that eternal friction of precisely such "selfish personalities," that it is certainly wise to try to smother the sparks in time, by pointing out their true nature. Demands, and a feeling of necessity for reforms have not originated with the two complainants. They date from several years, and there has never been a question of avoiding reforms, but rather a failure of finding such means as would satisfy all the theosophists. To the present day, we have yet to find that "wise man" from the East or from the West, who could not only diagnosticate the disease in the T. Society, but offer advice and a remedy likewise to cure it. It is easy to write: "It would be out of place to suggest any specific measures" (for such reforms, which do seem more difficult to suggest than to be vaguely hinted at)--"for no one who has any faith in Brotherhood and in the power of Truth will fail to perceive what is necessary,"--concludes the critic. One may, perhaps, have such faith and yet fail to perceive what is most necessary. Two heads are better than one; and if any practical reforms have suggested themselves to our severe judges their refusal to give us the benefit of their discovery would be most unbrotherly. So far, however, we have received only most impracticable suggestions for reforms whenever these came to be specified. The Founders, and the whole Central Society at the Headquarters, for instance, are invited to demonstrate their theosophical natures by living like "fowls in the air and lilies of the field," which neither sow nor reap, toil not, nor spin and "take no thought for the morrow." This being found hardly practicable, even in India, where a man may go about in the garment of an Angel, but has, nevertheless, to pay rent and taxes, another proposition, then a third one and a fourth --each less practicable than the preceding--were offered . . . the unavoidable rejection of which led finally to the criticism now under review. After carefully reading "A Few Words, etc.," no very acute intellect is needed to perceive that, although no "specific measures" are offered in them, the drift of the whole argument tends but to one conclusion, a kind of syllogism more Hindu than metaphysical. Epitomised, the remarks therein plainly say: "Destroy the bad results pointed out by destroying the causes that generate them." Such is the apocalyptic meaning of the paper, although both causes and results are made painfully and flagrantly objective and that they may be rendered in this wise: Being shown that the Society is the result and fruition of a bad President; and the latter being the outcome of such an "untheosophically" organized Society--and, its worse than useless General Council--"make away with all these Causes and the results will disappear"; i.e., the Society will have ceased to exist. Is this the heart-desire of the two true and sincere Theosophists? The complaints--"submitted to those interested in the progress of true Theosophy"--which seems to mean "theosophy divorced from the Society"--may now be noticed in order and answered. They specify the following objections: I. To the language of the Rules with regard to the powers invested in the President-Founder by the General Council. This objection seems very right. The sentence . . . The duties of the Council "shall consist in advising the P.F. in regard to all matters referred to them by him" may be easily construed as implying that on all matters not referred to the Council by the Pres.-Founder . . . its members will hold their tongues. The Rules are changed, at any rate they are corrected and altered yearly. This sentence can be taken out. The harm, so far, is not so terrible. II. It is shown that many members ex-officio whose names are found on the list of the General Council are not known to the Convention; that they are, very likely, not even interested in the Society "under their special care"; a body they had joined at one time, then probably forgotten its existence in the meanwhile to withdraw themselves from the Association. The argument implied is very valid. Why not point it out of officially to the Members residing at, or visiting the Head Quarters, the impropriety of such a parading of names? Yet, in what respect can this administrative blunder, or carelessness, interfere with, or impede "the progress of true Theosophy."[*5] III. "The members are appointed by the President-Founder. . . ." it is complained; "the Gen. Council only advises on what is submitted to it" . . . and "in the meantime" that P.F. is empowered to issue "special orders" and "provisional rules," on behalf of that ("dummy") Council. (Rule IV, p. 20.) Moreover, it is urged that out of a number of 150 members of the G. Council, a quorum of 5 and even 3 members present, may, should it be found necessary by the President, decide upon any question of vital importance, etc., etc., etc. Such an "untheosophical" display of authority, is objected to by Messrs. M. M. Chatterji and A. Gebhard on the ground that it leads the Society to Caesarism, to "tyranny" and "papal infallibility," etc., etc. However right the two complainants may be in principle it is impossible to fail seeing the absurd exaggerations of the epithets used; for, having just been accused on one page of "tyrannical authority," of "centralization of power" and a "papal institution" (p. 9)--on page 11, the President-Founder is shown "issuing special orders" from that "centre of Caesarism"--which no one is bound to obey, unless he so wishes! "It is well known" remarks the principal writer--"that not only individuals but even Branches have refused to pay this (annual) subscription . . . of . . . two shillings" (p. 11 ); without any bad effect for themselves, resulting out of it, as appears. Thus, it would seem it is not to a non-existent authority that objections should be made, but simply to a vain and useless display of power that no one cares for. ==============================end of part 1 of 4 ======================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:46:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Thanks to Doss Message-ID: Thanks you Doss for posting the four-part file - I was beginning to think everyone had left the list forever! I had rather expcted some feedback from a recent post of my own, but so far - nothing. I hope all your hard work bears fruit. After reading your files, I began to wonder [again] whether we ought not to start over with the entire theosophical concept. Not a new thought for many of us, I know, and as always, if we wanted to do it, how would we begin? COULD we begin? The Theosophy International venture might have given things a starting point, but so far not much has happened, even though there are now 73 people who have "signed up" since its inception. I think I shall retire to a darkened room and lie down ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:45:24 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Thanks to Doss Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970713014524.00dd5868@mail.eden.com> At 09:22 PM 7/12/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >Thanks you Doss for posting the four-part file - I was beginning to >think everyone had left the list forever! I had rather expcted some >feedback from a recent post of my own, but so far - nothing. I hope all >your hard work bears fruit. After reading your files, I began to wonder >[again] whether we ought not to start over with the entire theosophical >concept. Not a new thought for many of us, I know, and as always, if we >wanted to do it, how would we begin? COULD we begin? The Theosophy >International venture might have given things a starting point, but so >far not much has happened, even though there are now 73 people who have >"signed up" since its inception. > >I think I shall retire to a darkened room and lie down ... > >Alan >--------- Alan: You are a very persistent and please add my name to TI and I am glad you will do so. Please don't retire to a darkened room and lie down ..... We need action and do something. When I was posting the HPB's msg on TS, it took some time. If just to post took some time, I imagined how much time she should have taken her to write it down in long hand. From time to time, it would be a good idea to go back in time and visualize the conditions under which TS was chartered and it would give some idea why such difficult conditions yielded so much results which lasted so long. It also makes at least me feel very very humble. In the msg, one of the things that is very striking was HPB's statement that her Teachers told her what *should* *not* be done. I wonder if there is something in the archives about this. I believe if we could all know about this, it could he very helpful. I also feel that it would also greatly benefit the present and future elected leaders in guiding them. I hope some of the things she discussed in the post may prod theos-l subscribers to comment and discuss in the light of the current status as well as what is likely to be in store in the next millenium. .......................Doss There is no religion higher than Truth From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:25:00 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: <199707130725.BAA07367@mailmx.micron.net> Well, far be it for me to nit-pick! but, in the recent issue of "Quest" (the teeny one), John Algeo addressed a reader who wrote about desiring an article which would discuss how the "Heaven's Gate tragedy" could never happen in Theosophy. Algeo answered that the TS has "certain inherent protections against the sort of cult behavior. . .associated with groups like the Heaven's Gate organization. Chief among those is the emphasis in Theosophy on personal responsibility and freedom from authoritarian dictation." He went on to say: ********* "It is ironic that modern Theosophy is the primary source of talk in our time about 'Masters.' H.P. Blavatsky's teachers were the models for practically all contemporary ideas about such persons. But her teachers differed from the ersatz wanna-bes that followed them in two ways. On the one hand, HPB's teachers were flesh and blood human beings, not spirits or disembodied spooks. On the other hand, they did not tell people what to do or how to do it. They made suggestions, but respected the freedom of conscience and right of free action of others and declined to take on themselves the karma of the choice of others or to deprive others of the opportunity to learn by choosing." ********** "Ersatz wanna-bes?" Ersatz means a copy, but of inferior quality. Normally, I would hold in high esteem someone who could sling such a subtle, but lethal literary arrow. However, I was perplexed in this case, since in the very same magazine John-john wrote that declaring "other belief systems. . .worthless, ridiculous, or currupting" is "pernicious." Hmmmm, does John-john read his own writings? Also, I was unaware it had been proved that the "Masters" were "flesh and blood human beings, not spirits or disembodied spooks" (although K. Paul Johnson makes a good case for it). And, is John-john saying that the "ersatz wanna-bes" were NOT human beings, but spirits or disemodied spooks? He kinda lost me on this particular comparison. Oh, and just one more little thing - Algeo wrote "they did not tell people what to do or how to do it." Eh? In the "Mahatma Letters to J. P. Sinnett," the "Masters" make it clear that if you don't believe and heed them, you just may be, well, rather primitive. There are many examples of the "Masters" being just plain bossy and insulting. And one "Master" wrote (in letter 41) that he would "force her to stop" - this is not, to me, necessarily honoring the "right of free action." Could such a thing like "Heaven's Gate" occur within a group of Theosophists? I doubt it. . .but never say never. I just wish Algeo had put forth a better case. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 08:24:58 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: <33f28b7d.50196012@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >Algeo wrote "they did not tell people >what to do or how to do it." Eh? In the "Mahatma Letters to J. P. >Sinnett," the "Masters" make it clear that if you don't believe and heed >them, you just may be, well, rather primitive. There are many examples of >the "Masters" being just plain bossy and insulting. And one "Master" wrote >(in letter 41) that he would "force her to stop" - this is not, to me, >necessarily honoring the "right of free action." John probably meant this as a general rule, since, elsewhere in "The Mahatma Letters" is at least the implication that they would _kill_ anyone who was about to reveal a sufficiently sacred secret. If I recall correctly, the reference to forcing her to stop was to forcing HPB, who had voluntarily completely devoted her life to their service, and who often strictly obeyed their definite commands. John's reference to the Masters' telling people neither what to do nor how to do it probably referred to less devoted recipients of their words. In studying "The Mahatma Letters," it should be understood that their use of English was, by their own admission, loose at best, and sloppy at worst. They would consider holding them to the strict meanings of their words as a violation of the spirit which they taught. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:07:15 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970713140715.00cee350@mail.eden.com> At 04:31 AM 7/13/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Kym wrote: > >>Algeo wrote "they did not tell people >>what to do or how to do it." Eh? In the "Mahatma Letters to J. P. >>Sinnett," the "Masters" make it clear that if you don't believe and heed >>them, you just may be, well, rather primitive. There are many examples of >>the "Masters" being just plain bossy and insulting. And one "Master" wrote >>(in letter 41) that he would "force her to stop" - this is not, to me, >>necessarily honoring the "right of free action." > >John probably meant this as a general rule, since, elsewhere in "The >Mahatma Letters" is at least the implication that they would _kill_ >anyone who was about to reveal a sufficiently sacred secret. If I >recall correctly, the reference to forcing her to stop was to forcing >HPB, who had voluntarily completely devoted her life to their service, >and who often strictly obeyed their definite commands. John's >reference to the Masters' telling people neither what to do nor how to >do it probably referred to less devoted recipients of their words. It appears that even for advanced pupils, Masters may from time to time get them do a specific task. Even for them most of the time it looks like that They want their pupils to take their own initiative to do something because, if they are just following orders, the benefit that would accrue to them would just be that of just following orders. If on the other hand the pupil takes initiative and discovers what needs to be done and does it with best results, all the resulting good Karma goes to the pupil. Just my thoughts since I do not know how these things work and I am yet to run into a high pupil to discuss these questions. So for now we all can but speculate. YMDMV. ............doss > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:16:36 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970713141636.00ceb864@mail.eden.com> At 03:25 AM 7/13/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Well, far be it for me to nit-pick! but, in the recent issue of "Quest" (the >teeny one), John Algeo addressed a reader who wrote about desiring an >article which would discuss how the "Heaven's Gate tragedy" could never >happen in Theosophy. Algeo answered that the TS has "certain inherent >protections against the sort of cult behavior. . .associated with groups >like the Heaven's Gate organization. Chief among those is the emphasis in >Theosophy on personal responsibility and freedom from authoritarian >dictation." He went on to say: > >********* > > "It is ironic that modern Theosophy is the primary source of talk in >our time about 'Masters.' H.P. Blavatsky's teachers were the models for >practically all contemporary ideas about such persons. But her teachers >differed from the ersatz wanna-bes that followed them in two ways. On the >one hand, HPB's teachers were flesh and blood human beings, not spirits or >disembodied spooks. On the other hand, they did not tell people what to do >or how to do it. They made suggestions, but respected the freedom of >conscience and right of free action of others and declined to take on >themselves the karma of the choice of others or to deprive others of the >opportunity to learn by choosing." > >********** > > >"Ersatz wanna-bes?" Ersatz means a copy, but of inferior quality. >Normally, I would hold in high esteem someone who could sling such a subtle, >but lethal literary arrow. However, I was perplexed in this case, since in >the very same magazine John-john wrote that declaring "other belief systems. >. .worthless, ridiculous, or currupting" is "pernicious." Hmmmm, does >John-john read his own writings? > Thanks for translating "Ersatz wanna-bes?" for many of us non scholarly unlettered novices. Wonder why it is so difficult to use simple words to express simple ideas? >Also, I was unaware it had been proved that the "Masters" were "flesh and >blood human beings, not spirits or disembodied spooks" (although K. Paul >Johnson makes a good case for it). And, is John-john saying that the >"ersatz wanna-bes" were NOT human beings, but spirits or disemodied spooks? >He kinda lost me on this particular comparison. > >Oh, and just one more little thing - Algeo wrote "they did not tell people >what to do or how to do it." Eh? In the "Mahatma Letters to J. P. >Sinnett," the "Masters" make it clear that if you don't believe and heed >them, you just may be, well, rather primitive. There are many examples of >the "Masters" being just plain bossy and insulting. And one "Master" wrote >(in letter 41) that he would "force her to stop" - this is not, to me, >necessarily honoring the "right of free action." > >Could such a thing like "Heaven's Gate" occur within a group of >Theosophists? I doubt it. . .but never say never. I just wish Algeo had >put forth a better case. > > One thing that I noticed in Heaven's Gate is the blind followers of a charismatic leader. Committing physical suicide is just one simple aspect of what Heaven's Gate followers did. Blind belief and blind following of a leader is equally or even more devastating to the person in the long run (from a multi life perspective) and this can happen in the the future in the TS if it has not happened before or is not happening now. Just my 2 cents. YMDMV. .............MKR >Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:38:04 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Eastern/Egyptian Thought Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970713123804.006a25f8@elcocomp.com> I've recently begun comparing some information contained in the Egyptian Book of the Dead to that contained in the Book of Dyzan (from An Abridgement to the Secret Doctrine). As I am more familiar with the hieroglyphics than Eastern thought, I wonder if someone could elaborate on the symbol composed of the circle with the dot and the usage of the word 'veil'. I'd also be interested in the history of the Book of Dyzan.... Thanks in advance Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:52:15 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: <199707132149.RAA25060@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: kymsmith@micron.net > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: "She does rave betimes" > Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 2:25 AM > > Well, far be it for me to nit-pick! but, in the recent issue of "Quest" (the > teeny one), John Algeo addressed a reader who wrote about desiring an > article which would discuss how the "Heaven's Gate tragedy" could never > happen in Theosophy. Algeo answered that the TS has "certain inherent > protections against the sort of cult behavior. . .associated with groups > like the Heaven's Gate organization. Chief among those is the emphasis in > Theosophy on personal responsibility and freedom from authoritarian > dictation." It is also interesting that any research done on Heaven's Gate also mentions the fact that Bonnie Nettles, one of the two leaders, was a member of the Houston Theosophical Society. She taught Herff what she knew from that and then weaved into their own UFO philosophy. In the now-popular-book, "The Gods Have Landed", it states: "We are now in a position to examine HPB's role in shaping the (alien) contactee picture. . . . LIttle recognzed, and certainly not emphasized by either Blavatsky or modern theosohists, HPB included among the heierarchy a master who dwelt on Venus and with whom she was in contact. These masters she termed the Lords of the Flame and the Lord of This World, the Head of the heirarchy for humanity." So HPB is not only responsible for the New Age, but also the UFO phenomena. I could hear Algeo doing some fancy dancing and talking when it comes to this, especially in reassurring everyone the Olcott is not a a similar group to Heaven's Gate nor has a similar structure. -A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:33:46 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970713223346.00cdd794@mail.eden.com> At 05:50 PM 7/13/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: kymsmith@micron.net >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: "She does rave betimes" >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 2:25 AM >> >> Well, far be it for me to nit-pick! but, in the recent issue of "Quest" (the >> teeny one), John Algeo addressed a reader who wrote about desiring an >> article which would discuss how the "Heaven's Gate tragedy" could never >> happen in Theosophy. Algeo answered that the TS has "certain inherent >> protections against the sort of cult behavior. . .associated with groups >> like the Heaven's Gate organization. Chief among those is the emphasis in >> Theosophy on personal responsibility and freedom from authoritarian >> dictation." > >It is also interesting that any research done on Heaven's Gate also >mentions the fact that Bonnie Nettles, one of the two leaders, was >a member of the Houston Theosophical Society. She taught Herff what >she knew from that and then weaved into their own UFO philosophy. > >In the now-popular-book, "The Gods Have Landed", it states: "We are now >in a position to examine HPB's role in shaping the (alien) contactee picture. . . . >LIttle recognzed, and certainly not emphasized by either Blavatsky or modern theosohists, >HPB included among the heierarchy a master who dwelt on Venus and with whom she was in >contact. These masters she termed the Lords of the Flame and the Lord of This World, the Head >of the heirarchy for humanity." > Indian scriptures have mentioned these Adepts - called Kumaras - from antiquity and is nothing new at least in that part of the world. What HPB did was to bring it to the attention of the modern world and more precisely explaine e Their position and the role They played in helping Man/Woman. Just to clarify. ..........doss >So HPB is not only responsible for the New Age, but also the UFO phenomena. > >I could hear Algeo doing some fancy dancing and talking when it comes to this, especially in >reassurring everyone the Olcott is not a a similar group to Heaven's Gate nor has a similar >structure. > >-A. Safron > > > > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:39:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: A double welcome! Message-ID: <7tB4A4A1MYyzEwhw@nellie2.demon.co.uk> THEOSOPHYINTERNATIONAL welcomes Lynn Moncreif (Wildefire@aol.com) and M.K. Ramadoss (ramadoss@eden.com) 75 subscribed and counting .... Alan :-) [Members are reminded that an up to date membership list is available on request at any time] --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 01:47:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: In message <199707130725.BAA07367@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Could such a thing like "Heaven's Gate" occur within a group of >Theosophists? I doubt it. . .but never say never. I just wish Algeo had >put forth a better case. > Perish the thought: maybe he is an ertsatz wanna-be? :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:22:15 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: <33C9A977.6D66@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <199707130725.BAA07367@mailmx.micron.net>, > kymsmith@micron.net writes > >Could such a thing like "Heaven's Gate" occur within a group of > >Theosophists? I doubt it. . .but never say never. I just wish Algeo had > >put forth a better case. > > > Perish the thought: maybe he is an ertsatz wanna-be? :-) I don't understand how not putting forth a better case would imply that John Algeo is an ersatz wanna-be. Look, you know what John Algeo was talking about, I know what John Algeo was talking about, we ALL know what John Algeo is talking about. It's just that so many people here are so filled with unreasoning hatred that they feel it is necessary to twist his words around, so that they can pretend that he is saying something evil, because otherwise, they can't feel superior to him. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:57:10 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Is God testing again? Message-ID: <199707140857.CAA15952@mailmx.micron.net> Bart yelled: > Look, you know what John Algeo was talking about, I know what John >Algeo was talking about, we ALL know what John Algeo is talking about. >It's just that so many people here are so filled with unreasoning hatred >that they feel it is necessary to twist his words around, so that they >can pretend that he is saying something evil, because otherwise, they >can't feel superior to him. Uh. . .Earth to Bart. . .Earth to Bart. . .Hello?. . .Alert!. . .incoming message. . .***JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE QUESTIONS OR DISAGREES WITH SOMEONE ELSE DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE "SO FILLED WITH UNREASONING HATRED"***. . .do you copy?. . .Bart?. . .Earth to Bart. . .do you copy?. . .Bart! Are you playing with the suction conduit again?. . .Earth to Bart. . .do you copy?. . .Earth to Bart, are you there?. . . Nothing but static was ever received from Commander Bart's slick ship - the world wailed with grief - and then, with love, named some squiggly strip of asphalt deep in the heart of Kansas "Lidofsky Lane." The End. (I've never stooped lower in my life than right now - ok, that's a lie - but what does one do with people such as this. . .and still manage to stay out of jail?) Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:06:26 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Is God testing again? Message-ID: <33CA1642.50D3@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Bart yelled: > > > Look, you know what John Algeo was talking about, I know what John > >Algeo was talking about, we ALL know what John Algeo is talking about. > >It's just that so many people here are so filled with unreasoning hatred > >that they feel it is necessary to twist his words around, so that they > >can pretend that he is saying something evil, because otherwise, they > >can't feel superior to him. > > Uh. . .Earth to Bart. . .Earth to Bart. . .Hello?. . .Alert!. . .incoming > message. . .***JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE QUESTIONS OR DISAGREES WITH SOMEONE ELSE > DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE "SO FILLED WITH UNREASONING HATRED"***. . .do you > copy?. . .Bart?. . .Earth to Bart. . .do you copy?. . .Bart! Are you playing > with the suction conduit again?. . .Earth to Bart. . .do you copy?. . .Earth > to Bart, are you there? I am just getting sick and tired of a group of people here reading something sinister into every single word that comes out of somebody from National Headquarters of the TSA, and then bemoan the fact that people from National Headquarters don't participate here. In the meantime, they post messages more worthy of Beavis and Butthead than theosophists. > (I've never stooped lower in my life than right now - ok, that's a lie - but > what does one do with people such as this. . .and still manage to stay out > of jail?) I guess you can go "Huh huh huh huh huh!" with your friends at your clever wit. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 11:30:11 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1129 Message-ID: <199707141530.LAA12087@leo.vsla.edu> According to theos-l@vnet.net: Kym quoting Algeo: > > like the Heaven's Gate organization. Chief among those is the emphasis in > > Theosophy on personal responsibility and freedom from authoritarian > > dictation." There is indeed an emphasis in *Theosophy* on freedom from authoritarian dictation. But that has not prevented the *Theosophical Society* from becoming an authoritarian and dictatorial organization. Or rather, an outwardly democratic shell for an inner group that makes no bones about having an authoritarian dictator at its head-- who just happens to also be TS President. Bart defending Algeo: > > Look, you know what John Algeo was talking about, I know what John > Algeo was talking about, we ALL know what John Algeo is talking about. If you think we all "know" the same thing, think again. I know that the TS is authoritarian and dictatorial despite all its denials. Do you? > It's just that so many people here are so filled with unreasoning hatred > that they feel it is necessary to twist his words around, so that they > can pretend that he is saying something evil, because otherwise, they > can't feel superior to him. Back at ya, Bart. You seem to be filled with unreasoning hatred of critics of the TS leadership, and are IMO twisting what Kym was saying in order to portray her in an evil light so that you can posture yourself as superior to her (and us-- meaning those who don't buy Algeo's hypocritical claims about the TS.) I don't think you, Kym or Algeo is evil. But Algeo's a hypocritical control freak, you're a knee-jerk defender of an indefensible organization, and Kym's somewhat lacking in diplomacy. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:24:49 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1129 Message-ID: <199707141924.NAA13319@mailmx.micron.net> Paul wrote: >I don't think you, Kym or Algeo is evil. Oh, I think at least one of us is. . . >and Kym's somewhat lacking in >diplomacy. Well!! The nerve!! Kym ;-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:24:47 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Is God testing again? Message-ID: <199707141924.NAA13313@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: > I guess you can go "Huh huh huh huh huh!" with your friends at your >clever wit. "Huh huh huh huh huh!" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:35:53 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Criticism and Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970714203553.00cf1460@mail.eden.com> Internet is still in its very infancy. One of these days, it is going to be a medium like telephone, fax etc but very very different. All the other medium are subject to control directly or indirectly. But so far it has been found that Internet is not. One of the unique feature of Internet is its openness and easy access to anyone with a connection. What this has done is cause a lot of soul searching and perhaps heart aches for many organizations used to be run in an autocratic manner and the ease with which the communication medium can be controlled by the organization. Such medium are the traditional newsletters and magazines. Since Internet is not amenable to such traditional controls -- some have tried censoring/moderating -- but not with much success in the larger picture. So the openness is going to open up a whole pandora's box and all the artifically erected walls are crumbling down. One of the things that many have seen is the ease with which criticisms of God/god down to an ant can be aired with ease. So we can expect more criticisms and more intense ones down the road. (IMHO you have seen nothing yet, and what we have seen is child's play.) Since there are many who feel that there is nothing sacred about any individual or any idea, or anything tradition has considered sacred, such criticism is very healthy. For Ages, lack of criticism has made many avoid independent thinking and leaders have exploited those who cannot independently think. Ask any leader. They will tell you that independent thinkers are the most difficult to deal with (and some times seen as very dangerous too). Criticisms are generally curtailed or avoided by various means. Fear of man/woman or fear of retribution either in this world or hereafter (if you believe in the latter.) Criticisms are also avoided by other financial or intangible inducements. As the saying goes From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:45:06 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Criticism and Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970714204506.0072ff60@mail.eden.com> Internet is still in its very infancy. One of these days, it is going to be a medium like telephone, fax etc but very very different. All the other medium are subject to control directly or indirectly. But so far it has been found that Internet is not. One of the unique feature of Internet is its openness and easy access to anyone with a connection. What this has done is cause a lot of soul searching and perhaps heart aches for many organizations used to be run in an autocratic manner and the ease with which the communication medium can be controlled by the organization. Such medium are the traditional newsletters and magazines. Since Internet is not amenable to such traditional controls -- some have tried censoring/moderating -- but not with much success in the larger picture. So the openness is going to open up a whole pandora's box and all the artifically erected walls are crumbling down. One of the things that many have seen is the ease with which criticisms of God/god down to an ant can be aired with ease. So we can expect more criticisms and more intense ones down the road. (IMHO you have seen nothing yet, and what we have seen is child's play.) Since there are many who feel that there is nothing sacred about any individual or any idea, or anything tradition has considered sacred, such criticism is very healthy. For Ages, lack of criticism has made many avoid independent thinking and leaders have exploited those who cannot independently think. Ask any leader. They will tell you that independent thinkers are the most difficult to deal with (and some times seen as very dangerous too). Criticisms are generally curtailed or avoided by various means. Fear of man/woman or fear of retribution either in this world or hereafter (if you believe in the latter.) Criticisms are also avoided by other financial or intangible inducements. As the saying goes "he who pays the piper calls the tune." I have seen many instances of avoiding criticisms of especially leadership in organizations because the leaders may wield the power of the purse by proving travel money, scholarship funds, provide opportunities to travel and speak at important places and occassions, and sometimes by using implicit threat of being thrownout from (so called unrelated/unconnected) organizations or the use of fear of stopping one's "progress" and "titles". Much of these no one talks about. Everyone who has been a victim or a beneficiary knows. It is the rare person who is not at the mercy of the leaders or not looking for any favours who can show a great amount of independence and is able to criticise openly without any fear. So I have always tried to avoid any favors (direct or indirect) so that one can keep one's true independence and take a truly independent stand and be dare enough to criticize without fear or favor. Hi, folks! You have not seen anything yet! Brace yourself for very exciting and critical msgs no matter whether the subject is god or the insignificant ant. When one is prepared for such a possibility, nothing can surprise any one any time. YMDMV ...............Doss aka M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 19:00:43 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Criticism and Internet Message-ID: <33CAAF9B.E3A@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > Criticisms are generally curtailed or avoided by various means. Fear of > man/woman or fear of retribution either in this world or hereafter (if you > believe in the latter.) Criticisms are also avoided by other financial or > intangible inducements. As the saying goes Your message ended there. And I AM interested in reading the rest; so far, it's pretty on the mark, in my opinion. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:28:48 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Theosophy & the Future Message-ID: <33CA9A0B.E2558838@earthlink.net> Hello, Updated & improved www page is http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecofree.html Cheers, Patrick *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/maininfo.html *** (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:03:03 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: <199707150039.UAA29738@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" > Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 5:35 PM > > At 05:50 PM 7/13/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: > >---------- > >> From: kymsmith@micron.net > >> To: Multiple recipients of list > >> Subject: "She does rave betimes" > >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 2:25 AM > >> > >> Well, far be it for me to nit-pick! but, in the recent issue of "Quest" (the > >> teeny one), John Algeo addressed a reader who wrote about desiring an > >> article which would discuss how the "Heaven's Gate tragedy" could never > >> happen in Theosophy. Algeo answered that the TS has "certain inherent > >> protections against the sort of cult behavior. . .associated with groups > >> like the Heaven's Gate organization. Chief among those is the emphasis in > >> Theosophy on personal responsibility and freedom from authoritarian > >> dictation." > > > >It is also interesting that any research done on Heaven's Gate also > >mentions the fact that Bonnie Nettles, one of the two leaders, was > >a member of the Houston Theosophical Society. She taught Herff what > >she knew from that and then weaved into their own UFO philosophy. > > > >In the now-popular-book, "The Gods Have Landed", it states: "We are now > >in a position to examine HPB's role in shaping the (alien) contactee > picture. . . . > >LIttle recognzed, and certainly not emphasized by either Blavatsky or > modern theosohists, > >HPB included among the heierarchy a master who dwelt on Venus and with whom > she was in > >contact. These masters she termed the Lords of the Flame and the Lord of > This World, the Head > >of the heirarchy for humanity." > > > > Indian scriptures have mentioned these Adepts - called Kumaras - from > antiquity and is nothing new at least in that part of the world. What HPB > did was to bring it to the attention of the modern world and more precisely > explaine e Their position and the role They played in helping Man/Woman. > Just to clarify. > > ..........doss Yes, when Carl Sagan presented his Cosmos series, one of my husband's Indian co-workers mentioned that. It is we, westerners, that are ignorant but seem to act superior about what we do not know. Perhaps there is a sense of superiority in thinking one species is alone in the universe and it's easy to laugh to other aliens. Some of them are laughable, when not backed by scientific investigation and common sense. But, as the late Sagan said, how could there be only humanity on God's pallette. However, I would venture to say that most aliens are so different than us, it will scare the wits out you if you see them. And MHO, is that there's a lot of biological and scientific work going between the species. A. Safron > >So HPB is not only responsible for the New Age, but also the UFO phenomena. > > > >I could hear Algeo doing some fancy dancing and talking when it comes to > this, especially in > >reassurring everyone the Olcott is not a a similar group to Heaven's Gate > nor has a similar > >structure. > > > >-A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:48:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Is God testing again? Message-ID: In message <199707141924.NAA13313@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Bart wrote: > >> I guess you can go "Huh huh huh huh huh!" with your friends at your >>clever wit. > > >"Huh huh huh huh huh!" > > > >Kym > "Huh huh huh huh huh!" Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:54:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Criticism and Internet Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970714204506.0072ff60@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >Hi, folks! You have not seen anything yet! Brace yourself for very exciting >and critical msgs no matter whether the subject is god or the insignificant >ant. Bracing myself .... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:43:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: We doth rave betimes Message-ID: In message <33C9A977.6D66@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > I don't understand how not putting forth a better case would imply that >John Algeo is an ersatz wanna-be. > > Look, you know what John Algeo was talking about, I know what John >Algeo was talking about, we ALL know what John Algeo is talking about. Wrong. >It's just that so many people here are so filled with unreasoning hatred >that they feel it is necessary to twist his words around, so that they >can pretend that he is saying something evil, because otherwise, they >can't feel superior to him. Wrong again. The truth is that so many people here want to see genuine thesophical principles at work, especially in the Adyar-based Society. I, like thousands of others over many many years, finally left because like them, I found that *I* was *falsely* accused of evil simply because I chose to seek truth rather than follow the party line. The TS had three main founders. The first to leave (be thrown out) was Judge. Many others, including those who later headed other 'theosophical' organisations, departed for similar reasons both before and after the Leadbeater affair. The basic reasons have always been the same - an apparent desire to control the thinking and behavior of the members. It is still going on, and from reading of the events in the USA (where I do not live) from TS members there over the past year or two, it is clear that this perception remains. There is no religion higher than truth, it appears, so long as we agree with the view as seen through E.S. colored spectacles. It is (or was - though I doubt it has changed) in the English Section. I have no desire, *nor any need* to feel either superior or inferior to John Algeo. You seem to be complaining about the attitudes or opinions of subscribers to this list. Maybe they, like me, have reasons for their attitudes and opinions - I know some do, as they have told me privately as well as on theos-l. LISTEN TO US. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 03:04:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Is God testing again? Message-ID: In message <33CA1642.50D3@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > I am just getting sick and tired of a group of people here reading >something sinister into every single word that comes out of somebody >from National Headquarters of the TSA, and then bemoan the fact that >people from National Headquarters don't participate here. In the >meantime, they post messages more worthy of Beavis and Butthead than >theosophists. Maybe people are seeing true? Why would they want to read something sinister in US HQ pronouncements *unless* perhaps there was good reason? Many of the subscribers to theos-l are well educated and intelligent people of many years experience of not only theosophy but of a number of other approaches to Truth. I began my own quest 41 years ago, and have probably read more crap than most, if only because I've had more time than most. However, this means I can recognise it when I read it again. See your paragraph as quoted above. You don't have to stay with us if you don't like us. And, BTW, if the postings re US HQ are so negative, *why do those at HQ with theos-l access NOT step in to present the alternative view?* Doss has been asking this question for a long time, and NO ONE has yet to answer him. And you wonder why people are suspicious? Wake up! AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:50:44 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1129 Message-ID: In message <199707141530.LAA12087@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >Back at ya, Bart. >I don't think you, Kym or Algeo is evil. But Algeo's a >hypocritical control freak, you're a knee-jerk defender of an >indefensible organization, and Kym's somewhat lacking in >diplomacy. So Kym tells it how she sees it. It's called honesty. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:48:43 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Criticism and Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715024843.00dd1788@mail.eden.com> At 07:02 PM 7/14/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> Criticisms are generally curtailed or avoided by various means. Fear of >> man/woman or fear of retribution either in this world or hereafter (if you >> believe in the latter.) Criticisms are also avoided by other financial or >> intangible inducements. As the saying goes > > Your message ended there. And I AM interested in reading the rest; so >far, it's pretty on the mark, in my opinion. > > Bart Lidofsky > Half way through writing my msg, I accidentally sent it. Later I completed the msg and posted the complete one. Thanks. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:20:26 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Dictatorship in the TS Message-ID: <33d5ca82.12267169@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Paul wrote: >There is indeed an emphasis in *Theosophy* on freedom from >authoritarian dictation. But that has not prevented the >*Theosophical Society* from becoming an authoritarian and >dictatorial organization. Or rather, an outwardly democratic >shell for an inner group that makes no bones about having an >authoritarian dictator at its head-- who just happens to also >be TS President. Everyone in a position of leadership has to be an "authoritarian dictator" to some degree. >I know that the TS is authoritarian and dictatorial despite all its >denials. Do you? They haven't ordered me to do anything, yet. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:20:32 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Is God testing again? Message-ID: <33d6cb63.12492142@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >Uh. . .Earth to Bart. . .Earth to Bart. . .Hello?. . .Alert!. . .incoming >message. . .***JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE QUESTIONS OR DISAGREES >WITH SOMEONE ELSE DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE "SO FILLED WITH >UNREASONING HATRED"***. . .do you copy?. . .Bart?. . .Earth to >Bart. . .do you copy?. . .Bart! Are you playing with the suction conduit >again?. . .Earth to Bart. . .do you copy?. . .Earth to Bart, are you there?. . . All this from the same individual who said that political conservatives have "hatred for the poor" just because they have a solution for what 32 years of liberalism has failed to do. >Nothing but static was ever received from Commander Bart's slick ship - the >world wailed with grief - and then, with love, named some squiggly strip of >asphalt deep in the heart of Kansas "Lidofsky Lane." Are you discriminating against Kansans, now? They're people too, you know. I think. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:52:12 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Is God testing again? - Tom Message-ID: <33CB01FC.3B23@micron.net> Tom Robertson wrote: > All this from the same individual who said that political > conservatives have "hatred for the poor" just because they have a > solution for what 32 years of liberalism has failed to do. I do not recall saying that political conservatives have "hatred for the poor." In what post was this? I have never thought most political conservatives "hate" the "poor" - just that they clearly exhibit a lack of genuine kindness toward them. If I said what you say I said, I apologize - however, again, I am doubtful as I don't believe the emotion of "hate" really even exists. So there. . .neener, neener. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 23:32:40 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: assurances of freedom in a controlling org. Message-ID: <199707150629.XAA24712@scv2.apple.com> >There is indeed an emphasis in *Theosophy* on freedom from >authoritarian dictation. But that has not prevented the >*Theosophical Society* from becoming an authoritarian and >dictatorial organization. Or rather, an outwardly democratic >shell for an inner group that makes no bones about having an >authoritarian dictator at its head-- who just happens to also >be TS President. Of course, all groups and traditions mythologize themselves, and the myths are always largely false. The Theosophical Society is no exception. I alternate between sharing your outrage at the hypocrisy of authoritarian groups insisting they're free (an issue that has gotten me in big trouble in O.T.O.), and a somewhat contrary feeling that since mythologization is inevitable, there are worse myths one could have than the myth of freedom, however untrue to life it may be. At least that myth will attract some people who wind up seeing through the veneer to the actual state of the group, and rebelling positively against it. If the group said up front that it had no respect for the individual and believed that all other opinions should be considered subordinate to those of its officers, then its chances of its ever redeeming itself would be slight indeed. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:02:51 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Is God testing again? - Tom Message-ID: <33fb16c9.31315214@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> >Tom Robertson wrote: >> All this from the same individual who said that political >> conservatives have "hatred for the poor" just because they have a >> solution for what 32 years of liberalism has failed to do. >I do not recall saying that political conservatives have "hatred for the >poor." In what post was this? The one I dreamed up. >If I said what you say I said, I apologize - however, again, I am >doubtful as I don't believe the emotion of "hate" really even exists. Heil, Hitler! There, do you still believe hatred doesn't exist? >So there. . .neener, neener. Do you always say that when you LOSE? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:16:49 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Eastern/Egyptian Thought Message-ID: <33CB4E09.1B6D@withoutwalls.com> You wrote: > Gisele > I've recently begun comparing some information contained in the Egyptian > Book of the Dead to that contained in the Book of Dyzan (from An > Abridgement to the Secret Doctrine). As I am more familiar with the > hieroglyphics than Eastern thought, I wonder if someone could elaborate on > the symbol composed of the circle with the dot and the usage of the word > 'veil'. I'd also be interested in the history of the Book of Dyzan.... I'd too be interested in a history of the Book of Dyzan, but I doubt one will ever easily come forward, if at all. It's one of the cornerstones of Blavatsky's whole exegesis, but seems to me more like a source to be taken on "faith". Maybe someone more scholarly than I can bring research of its origins to light. As to the symbol you mentioned, the circle with the central dot, I think I can be a little more helpful there. I am an artist and somewhat a student of such glyphs. The image you refer to has a deep and fascinating world history, a wonderful body of knowledge associated with it, and an unceasingly active presence in our lives. It's odd, almost, how such a simple image, which in it's commonality, can easily be passed over, but with the proper presence of mind, can reveal truth at significantly meaningful depths. In Jungian circles, this glyph would be said to be an "A Priori symbol of the Self", which touches the mysteries of the innermost core of individuals and also transmits the significance of the transpersonal to ego consciousness. There is plenty of literature well worth your time to investigate here. I recommend Jung's "Mandala Symbolism" (ISBN 0-691-01781-6), G. Adler's "The Living Symbol" (New York, Pantheon, 1961), and E. Edinger's "Ego and Archetype" ( ISBN 0-87773-576-X) as good places to start in this area. They provide a healthy western psychological context to the somewhat obscure language of "The Book of Dyzan." The persistence of this image in most world religions, especially those with developed mystical traditions, makes it rather easy (and fun) to find enriching references. It won't take you long to find some. I know from personal experience, that if this image is "speaking" to you, and you follow its impulses, your search will be rewarded. I would even venture to suggest that it might not be so much an impression of ink on paper that you are noticing, but an activation within you of what it represents. As a symbol, it's referent is quite autonomous and alive somewhere deep inside all of us. A meditation on this image can prove very benefical. In theosophical terms, this image is typically made to refer to Primordial Unmanifested Unity and in particular, that Unity as it stirs,(awakens) and begins to describe the field for it's eventual manifestation. You could say that the circle itself marks the interface between Pralaya and (Maha)Manvantara,(or in Jung's terms, the Unconscious and the potentially Conscious) while the inclusion of the point in the center denotes a referent to Immanence. (A "veiling" of the Unmanifested in the "Waters" of Primordial Space) This "Immanence" is pre-existent to the vivification and differentiation of the field in preparation for it's eventual outpouring of formal manifestation (cyclic involution/evolution). In meditation on this symbol, or in the physical act of consciously drawing it, it is good to pause and consider the blank substrate wherein the image will appear. This is ritual art-making par excellence and has been practiced as such, by diverse peoples in many cultures for centuries. In this context it is a mystically potent Creation symbol and I believe it was thus included in HPB's SD.I volume of Cosmogenesis. I'd additionally refer you to the "Art of Tantra" and "Yogic Art" by Akit Mookergee. These books are excellent and informed sources from Hindu tradition that are only a short step away from the Theosophical perpective. Hope that helps. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:38:33 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Criticism and Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715133833.00738ffc@mail.eden.com> At 10:23 PM 7/14/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970714204506.0072ff60@mail.eden.com>, >ramadoss@eden.com writes >>Hi, folks! You have not seen anything yet! Brace yourself for very exciting >>and critical msgs no matter whether the subject is god or the insignificant >>ant. > >Bracing myself .... > >Alan Not so fast. Be patient. It has to evolve in the natural course of events. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:49:54 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: We doth rave betimes Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715134954.0073dfa4@mail.eden.com> At 10:26 PM 7/14/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <33C9A977.6D66@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes >> I don't understand how not putting forth a better case would imply that >>John Algeo is an ersatz wanna-be. >> >> Look, you know what John Algeo was talking about, I know what John >>Algeo was talking about, we ALL know what John Algeo is talking about. > >Wrong. > >>It's just that so many people here are so filled with unreasoning hatred >>that they feel it is necessary to twist his words around, so that they >>can pretend that he is saying something evil, because otherwise, they >>can't feel superior to him. > >Wrong again. > >The truth is that so many people here want to see genuine thesophical >principles at work, especially in the Adyar-based Society. I, like >thousands of others over many many years, finally left because like >them, I found that *I* was *falsely* accused of evil simply because I >chose to seek truth rather than follow the party line. > >The TS had three main founders. The first to leave (be thrown out) was >Judge. Many others, including those who later headed other >'theosophical' organisations, departed for similar reasons both before >and after the Leadbeater affair. The basic reasons have always been the >same - an apparent desire to control the thinking and behavior of the >members. It is still going on, and from reading of the events in the >USA (where I do not live) from TS members there over the past year or >two, it is clear that this perception remains. > >There is no religion higher than truth, it appears, so long as we agree >with the view as seen through E.S. colored spectacles. It is (or was - >though I doubt it has changed) in the English Section. > >I have no desire, *nor any need* to feel either superior or inferior to >John Algeo. You seem to be complaining about the attitudes or opinions >of subscribers to this list. Maybe they, like me, have reasons for >their attitudes and opinions - I know some do, as they have told me >privately as well as on theos-l. LISTEN TO US. > >AB It is the varying attitudes and opinions and anyone searching for the Truth -- however one may define Truth to be -- under the one unifying principle "Helping Humanity" that provides real strength to the T Movement. At least we should recognize the fact that many of those who take time to write and post here do make time to do it in spite of their very busy schedule and commitments without finding excuses. Let us not forget all of us have other commitments that demand much of our time (to make a living.) Many of us work round the clock and run businesses not to the wonderful schedule of Monday-Friday, 9:00-noon, 1:15-5:00. And many of us would have been *out* of business long time ago and be homeless if we kept these hours. Even TS would not here today if HPB kept these hours when she toiled to provide what she gave to the world. My 2 cents worth. YMDMV ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:54:56 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715135456.0074277c@mail.eden.com> At 08:39 PM 7/14/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: "She does rave betimes" >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 5:35 PM >> >> At 05:50 PM 7/13/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >> >---------- >> >> From: kymsmith@micron.net >> >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> >> Subject: "She does rave betimes" >> >> Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 2:25 AM >> >> >> >> Well, far be it for me to nit-pick! but, in the recent issue of "Quest" (the >> >> teeny one), John Algeo addressed a reader who wrote about desiring an >> >> article which would discuss how the "Heaven's Gate tragedy" could never >> >> happen in Theosophy. Algeo answered that the TS has "certain inherent >> >> protections against the sort of cult behavior. . .associated with groups >> >> like the Heaven's Gate organization. Chief among those is the emphasis in >> >> Theosophy on personal responsibility and freedom from authoritarian >> >> dictation." >> > >> >It is also interesting that any research done on Heaven's Gate also >> >mentions the fact that Bonnie Nettles, one of the two leaders, was >> >a member of the Houston Theosophical Society. She taught Herff what >> >she knew from that and then weaved into their own UFO philosophy. >> > >> >In the now-popular-book, "The Gods Have Landed", it states: "We are now >> >in a position to examine HPB's role in shaping the (alien) contactee >> picture. . . . >> >LIttle recognzed, and certainly not emphasized by either Blavatsky or >> modern theosohists, >> >HPB included among the heierarchy a master who dwelt on Venus and with whom >> she was in >> >contact. These masters she termed the Lords of the Flame and the Lord of >> This World, the Head >> >of the heirarchy for humanity." >> > >> >> Indian scriptures have mentioned these Adepts - called Kumaras - from >> antiquity and is nothing new at least in that part of the world. What HPB >> did was to bring it to the attention of the modern world and more precisely >> explaine e Their position and the role They played in helping Man/Woman. >> Just to clarify. >> >> ..........doss > >Yes, when Carl Sagan presented his Cosmos series, one of my husband's >Indian co-workers mentioned that. It is we, westerners, that are ignorant >but seem to act superior about what we do not know. > >Perhaps there is a sense of superiority in thinking one species is alone in >the universe and it's easy to laugh to other aliens. Some of them are laughable, >when not backed by scientific investigation and common sense. But, as the >late Sagan said, how could there be only humanity on God's pallette. > >However, I would venture to say that most aliens are so different than us, it >will scare the wits out you if you see them. And MHO, is that there's a lot >of biological and scientific work going between the species. > >A. Safron I agree. No matter what and how the aliens look feel and act, to me at least, does not matter personally. I have a life to live and problems and issues to be taken care of which keeps me busy. Only wish may be, if I can get an all knowing alien to help me to post msgs here and make the list more useful and interesting would help!!!! ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 19:55:14 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1129 Message-ID: <199707151602.MAA07340@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: K. Paul Johnson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1129 > Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 10:30 AM > > According to theos-l@vnet.net: > > I don't think you, Kym or Algeo is evil. But Algeo's a > hypocritical control freak, you're a knee-jerk defender of an > indefensible organization, and Kym's somewhat lacking in > diplomacy. > > Cheers, > Paul One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. Any of the nasty and personal stuff would certainly be filtered out, leaving lists with an intellectual airness. Personally, I have found that this is what the real Internet is about. People speaking their minds FREELY, as in the Aquarian mode. And if that pisses people off, they can start their own list. I, myself, have been verbally chided by those who think what I had to say about the LCC, TS or anything was JUST TOO INDISCREET. WAKE UP, THERE! This is the Aquarian Age, whether you like it or not and people are going to say what they feel, whether anyone likes it or not. WATCH OUT! The Aquarian person is pouring it right on your old head, kinda like a water balloon. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:06:02 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: KABOOM! Message-ID: <199707151603.MAA07349@cliff.concentric.net> Hi folks! True to tradition, I got into a car accident just before the Annual Meeting and Summer Session. It will probably be repaired during that time period. This time I was driving down a narrow street, made even narrower by a big ice cream truck, a car going south and a parked car. As I drove north, trying not to hit anyone, the lady in the parked car decided to to open her car door. The side of her door was hit by my headlight, crumpling the door and throwing tiny pieces of glass all over the street. The lady started jumping up and down and yelling at me in the middle of the street, even though I never saw her open her car door. The real cause was that there was'nt enough room on the street for anyone. Hope I'm not boring you. My insurance company claims that I may be at fault if the door was "hit a certain way". Yes, it's true. If I see an open car door on a busy street, I go for that sucker and try to smash it into little pieces.:-) What a bunch of baloney. Larry, Gerda and Chuck, let me know what's happening at the Meeting! -A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 12:39:51 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Tim's comment Message-ID: <199707151639.MAA21960@leo.vsla.edu> Sorry, but sometimes putting a name in the header is the only way to make clear what your subject is. Having been at various times a member of the three major Theosophical organizations, and retaining membership now in just one, I can comment on how they illustrate Tim's theme of openness about authoritarian control or denial that it exists. 1. Adyar has a democratic structure in name only which is a cover for the complete autocracy of the ES. The problem with this is that the facade attracts people who believe the propaganda and who end up being treated very badly by those in control. How many of those who have left the TS-Adyar over the years would have ever joined in the first place if they knew the score? I don't think the myth of openness and freedom does any good in terms of drawing in people who might make it a reality. Or rather it draws them in, but the reality spews them out. 2. ULT mythologizes itself even more, claiming to have no officers but in fact governed by a cryptocracy of board members of the Theosophy Company. Again, people can be drawn in by the myth that this is a group which welcomes all sincere seekers and students of Theosophy; they soon enough find out that a very rigid orthodoxy prevails and will never change. 3. TS-Pasadena, on the other hand, openly acknowledges that it is governed by a single leader and makes no pretense of being either democratic or free of leadership. It also abolished its ES almost 50 years ago, one of the wisest moves in Theosophical history IMO. Although Grace Knoche may have as much or more control as Radha, she is accessible and respectful of input from members. We may not see eye to eye on many things, but I deeply respect Grace as someone who has never misled me, tried to control my thinking, or encouraged harsh attacks on people whose view of Theosophy is different from her own. So I think the relative non-self-mythologizing of the Pasadena TS is far healthier than the state of denial that Adyar and ULT are in about their authority structures. Have been learning more about ARE, which is quite paradoxical compared to the TS. There, the leadership is much more open to diverse perspectives, skeptical or critical approaches to Cayce, etc., than the average member-- as best I can tell anyhow. There is a perception (just presented on another list) that the Board only pretends to want input from the membership but really has its own agenda which is not subject to influence. But the leaders are not at all resented for being high-handed and resistant to member input the way the Board is. (Leaders being the executive committee and department heads.) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:28:17 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: The internet versus small groups Message-ID: <199707151728.KAA23701@palrel3.hp.com> I don't quite share the enthusiasm about the Internet, the golden age of communication and all that. The lack of face-to-face contact has its limitations. While the freedom of expression is certainly much better than censorship, most lists seem to degenerate into incredibly childish behavior and little real exchange. This list, from my totally unscientific and random study, seems to be in the minority that are relatively free of this. M. Scott Peck talked about the stages of a community. In the earlier stages there is pseudo-harmony where everyone is pseudo-nice and terrified of disintegration, so they are not frank. Then there is chaos, where the pseudo-harmony breaks down with suppressed unconscious material surfacing. Here the very existence of the group is in question. Then some are able to find community out of chaos, where people learn to respect one another. These steps seem to be inevitable. The problem with the internet: Without face-to-face contact, most lists tend to stay somewhere between pseudo-harmony and chaos. It is just too easy to indulge in non-constructive hurtful words when you are insulated by distance and faceless anonymity. Without a flesh and blood person in front of you, it is more difficult to learn respect. IMHO, small groups will be in the spiritual forefront. "YMDMV" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:00:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: <970715140040_915358936@emout06.mail.aol.com> Ann, You really must do something about this carmic burden you've acquired. Chuck the Hertic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:04:18 +0200 From: Silver Subject: Intro. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970715190418.0067fefc@pop.xs4all.nl> >Anybody heard of some interesting cocktail >tidbits of what is happening with Theosophy in Nederland? Mr. Guy Chevrette, Ministre d'Etat des Ressources Naturelles Ministre des Affaires Autochtones Fax: 418/643-4318 and 418/646-4918 Dear Minister Chevrette, We are writing to express our alarm over Hydro Quebec's intention to divert the Pekanb and Carheil rivers, tributaries of the world famous Moise River. A decision by the Province of Quebec to approve this diversion would go against world opinion and subvert the democractic process in which all sectors of the public condemned the proposal. We are aware that the proposed diversions was condemned by your own agency, the BAPE and was not to be approved without proper scrutiny by the public and your agency, the BAPE. We fully support this position. We urge you suspend authorization of the St. Marguerite 3 (SM3) project, as the BAPE recommended in 1993, until the impact studies suggested by them have been completed, and until the modified proposal has been subject to public review. We are aware that Mr. David Cliche, Quebec Minister of the Environment has publicly supported the Moise watershed as a Heritage River. We urge you to stand by this commitment and support the permanent protection of the Moisie River, a pristine river by declaring it a Heritage River now. To tamper with this great river, the jewel of the province merely to provide cheap electricity would endanger the largest returning salmon habitat. The Moise River is North America's greatest Atlantic salmon spawning river with 10-45,000 Atlantic Salmon returning there every year. The Snake River's salmon are endangered. Regulation does not work. This can be confirmed by the Atlantic Salmon Federation and was a conclusion put forward in the BAPE Report. Please act immediately to declare the Moise a Heritage River to be permanently protected before it is too late. Please keep it wild. Sincerely, YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS cc: Mr. David Cliche, Minister of the Environment Fax: 418/643-4143 Premier Lucien Bouchard Fax: 418/643-3924 Armand Mckenzie, Avocat Fax: 418/968-2370 ANTI-ENVIRONMENTALISTS BURN NUXALK FLAG VIOLENCE AGAINST ENVIRONMENTALISTS CONTINUES Sunday 13th July, 1997, Bella Coola, B.C.: Elected head councilor Archie Pootlass this morning led a mob of anti-environmentalists today who boarded the MV Starlet, a fishing boat owned by two local environmentalists, and burned a flag given to them by Head Hereditary Chief Nuximlayc (Lawrence Pootlass). The flag was being flown at the request of environmental supporters from the Nuxalk Nation, who had invited the Forest Action Network into their territory to help protest the logging of many important rainforest valleys. This follows on recent hostilities including: * A mob of anti-environmentalists assaulted at least three people in Bella Coola on Saturday evening. The assaults took place as the MV Starlet tried to tie up to the dock. One young woman was assaulted then pushed into the water, another woman who was filming the violence was assaulted by two men and her $2000 video-camera smashed then thrown into the water. A second videographer was pushed to the ground. * The cook from a local cafe was attacked on the same evening for professing to 'like trees'. * At a public meeting at the LoBelCo hall in the Bella Coola valley on the night of July 9th, an anti-environmentalist openly recommended dynamiting the MV Starlet, as well as Greenpeace's MV Moby Dick. * Later on that night, the vehicle of a local environmental activist, Simon Waters, parked just off the road between the meeting hall and Bella Coola, had all its windows smashed. * Numerous death threats have been made against environmentalists. * On June 23rd, the grave of a young environmentalist who died two years ago in a hiking accident in the valley was desecrated. This vandalism was described on the community page of the local paper, the Coast Mountain News, as a "Totally ugly, heartless act". "It seems a minority of local residents are trying to take the law into their own hands, much to the annoyance of most of our community," said Simon Waters, FAN spokesperson and Bella Coola valley resident. "We are witnessing the results of Premier Glen Clarke's antagonistic statements towards environmentalists." said Gavin Edwards of the Forest Action Network. "He has to accept responsibility for inciting the increase in violence." In May and June, Premier Clarke went on a tour of resource dependent communities and encouraged local citizens to form "an army" to "combat" environmentalists. For more information please call Gavin Edwards or Greg Higgs at (250) 799-5800 ;Gavin Edwards FOREST ACTION NETWORK Box 625, Bella Coola, BC Canada V0T 1C0 TEL (250) 799-5800 FAX (250) 799-5830 gedwards@envirolink.org http://www.fanweb.org ** CAMPAIGNING TO SAVE THE GREAT BEAR RAINFOREST ** Silver From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:47:35 -0800 From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Snicker Message-ID: <33CBC5C7.133A@modzer0.uafdorms.alaska.edu> *laugh* Beavis and Butthead??? Oh, PLEASE! ...well, ok... Huh huh huh huh huh. I can't believe I'm doing this... --- Jaqi From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:24:30 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715192430.00bcea80@mail.eden.com> At 12:06 PM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi folks! > >True to tradition, I got into a car accident just before >the Annual Meeting and Summer Session. It will probably >be repaired during that time period. > >This time I was driving down a narrow street, made even >narrower by a big ice cream truck, a car going south and a >parked car. As I drove north, trying not to hit anyone, the >lady in the parked car decided to to open her car door. >The side of her door was hit by my headlight, crumpling >the door and throwing tiny pieces of glass all over the >street. The lady started jumping up and down and >yelling at me in the middle of the street, even though I >never saw her open her car door. The real cause was >that there was'nt enough room on the street for anyone. >Hope I'm not boring you. > >My insurance company claims that I may be at >fault if the door was "hit a certain way". Yes, it's true. >If I see an open car door on a busy street, I go for >that sucker and try to smash it into little pieces.:-) >What a bunch of baloney. > >Larry, Gerda and Chuck, let me know what's >happening at the Meeting! > >-A. Safron > Sorry about the accident. Glad no one was hurt. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:24:37 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The internet versus small groups Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715192437.006df050@mail.eden.com> At 01:29 PM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >I don't quite share the enthusiasm about the Internet, the golden age of >communication and all that. The lack of face-to-face contact has its >limitations. While the freedom of expression is certainly much better than >censorship, most lists seem to degenerate into incredibly childish behavior >and little real exchange. This list, from my totally unscientific and random >study, seems to be in the minority that are relatively free of this. > >M. Scott Peck talked about the stages of a community. In the earlier stages >there is pseudo-harmony where everyone is pseudo-nice and terrified of >disintegration, so they are not frank. Then there is chaos, where the >pseudo-harmony breaks down with suppressed unconscious material >surfacing. Here the very existence of the group is in question. Then some are >able to find community out of chaos, where people learn to respect one >another. These steps seem to be inevitable. > >The problem with the internet: > >Without face-to-face contact, most lists tend to stay somewhere between >pseudo-harmony and chaos. It is just too easy to indulge in non-constructive >hurtful words when you are insulated by distance and faceless >anonymity. Without a flesh and blood person in front of you, it is more >difficult to learn respect. > >IMHO, small groups will be in the spiritual forefront. > >"YMDMV" > I agree. Internet is here to stay and how groups using it evolve and work is yet to be seen. Small groups have their own advantage. I think that both have its place and seem to travel in parallel paths. I also wondering about learn respect. I think one has to be respectful to everyone all the time. Once we come down to the gutters, and start acting mean and ugly, it more reflects on the person rather than the target. Much of the time I feel it is very useful to focus on issues and ideas rather than individuals concerned and much easier to stand one's ground even when one is alone in standing up for any issues or ideas. Just my 2 cents. YMDMV From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:24:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1129 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715192428.00bcb9dc@mail.eden.com> At 12:04 PM 7/15/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: K. Paul Johnson >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1129 >> Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 10:30 AM >> >> According to theos-l@vnet.net: >> >> I don't think you, Kym or Algeo is evil. But Algeo's a >> hypocritical control freak, you're a knee-jerk defender of an >> indefensible organization, and Kym's somewhat lacking in >> diplomacy. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul > >One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never >appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. Any of the nasty and personal >stuff would certainly be filtered out, leaving lists with an intellectual >airness. > >Personally, I have found that this is what the real Internet is about. >People speaking their minds FREELY, as in the Aquarian mode. >And if that pisses people off, they can start their own list. I, myself, >have been verbally chided by those who think what I had to say >about the LCC, TS or anything was JUST TOO INDISCREET. > >WAKE UP, THERE! This is the Aquarian Age, whether you like it >or not and people are going to say what they feel, whether anyone >likes it or not. > >WATCH OUT! The Aquarian person is pouring it right on your old >head, kinda like a water balloon. > >A. Safron > Thanks for coming out and speaking your mind. I would rather have people speak openly and directly rather than do otherwise. I do not know who came up with the terminology - moderated instead of censored list, that is what it really is. May be the brainwashed sheep do like them. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:58:32 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Eastern/Egyptian Thought Message-ID: <199707152003.QAA09867@NetGSI.com> Mark, you gave a great response, and I can only think of two other meanings for the circle and point. First is the O.T.O.'s interpretation, where the point is Hadit and the circle is Nuit. Second is my own I-Not-I Monad where the point is the I (self) and the circle is the Not-I (world). Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:33:11 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: TS-L? Message-ID: <33e0d5b6.27028976@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> >One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never >appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:02:41 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970715150241.00800450@imagiware.com> At 05:51 PM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >>One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never >>appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. > >Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to >subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was >meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? > subscribe to ts-l@theosophia.org -- note the different domain name. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:28:20 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Is God testing again? - Tom Message-ID: <199707152228.QAA19749@mailmx.micron.net> Tom wrote: >Heil, Hitler! There, do you still believe hatred doesn't exist? I'm afraid so. One of the spiritual and philosophical conclusions that I concur with is: "There are only two emotions - Love and Fear." What seems like "evil" or "hatred" is, to me, a manifestation of an intense and towering fear. Hitler was a man tortured by his Fear - as were/are his followers. I am, in no way, minimizing how dangerous and devastating that Fear can be - and the immense suffering it can cause others - but I don't think of Hitler as an "evil" man. To me, there is no such being. Nor do I believe that Hitler's or anyone's "soul," "monad," "jiva," "ruh," "atman," etc. . . can ever be "lost" - because if that were so, that would mean that Fear is stronger than Love - that it can forever confiscate or prevent the Re-Unification of what belongs to and is Love. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:40:59 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715224059.00e28d88@mail.eden.com> At 05:51 PM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >>One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never >>appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. > >Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to >subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was >meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? > I am glad that you are inquiring about ts-l here. Has anyone who has seen ts-l and/or nl-l msgs have ever seen theos-xxxx or theos-talk mentioned? ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:48:39 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715224839.00736a20@mail.eden.com> At 05:51 PM 7/15/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >>One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never >>appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. > >Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to >subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was >meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? > A simple question? Are the members of TSA being informed of ts-l? Anyone has seen anything published in AT? MKRamadoss TSA Member in good standing and dues paid uptodate. PS: I am not in the habit of calling and finding out. I think membership should be notified if ts-l is an "official" activity of TSA. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:50:02 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970715225002.00db0cb0@mail.eden.com> At 06:01 PM 7/15/97 -0400, Eldon B. Tucker wrote: >At 05:51 PM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >>>One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never >>>appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. >> >>Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to >>subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was >>meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? >> > >subscribe to ts-l@theosophia.org > >-- note the different domain name. > Dear Eldon: Thanks for the info. BTW where and how did you find out? Just curious. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 00:29:37 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Everything is Art from the Boundariless Unity Message-ID: In meditation on this symbol, or in the physical act of consciously drawing it, it is good to pause and consider the blank substrate wherein the image will appear. This is ritual art-making par excellence and has been practiced as such, by diverse peoples in many cultures for centuries. In this context it is a mystically potent Creation symbol and I believe it was thus included in HPB's SD.I volume of Cosmogenesis. I'd additionally refer you to the "Art of Tantra" and "Yogic Art" by Akit Mookergee. These books are excellent and informed sources from Hindu tradition that are only a short step away from the Theosophical perpective. Hope that helps. Mark Keith: I am a bit off-line, so to speak, but I want to respond to Mark's interesting post as I have thought that thesophy, religion, science and philosophy - stem from the source-root of the creative impulse of Bounless and Boundriless Unitive Consciousness, the ground of all our individual consciousness and the source of all Maya in manifestation, that is yet nonetheless very real to the beings, like me an you, in it. Thus I have often suggested that HPB and her Secret Docrine a closer to the truth when they activate our unconscious desire to rejoin this unitive MIND. HPB is less close to the truth when it is taken to come from a physical book of Dzyan and channeled or inspired by Masters called Koot Hoomi (what a hoot!) and Moriya. Thus, I believe she really made it all up the way Picasso made up Guernica, and Michelangelo made up the Sistine Chapels though they had books, history, and all that to inspire them. I'll check you web page! Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 00:34:55 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Rave, but you may pay consequences Message-ID: Personally, I have found that this is what the real Internet is about. People speaking their minds FREELY, as in the Aquarian mode. And if that pisses people off, they can start their own list. I, myself, have been verbally chided by those who think what I had to say about the LCC, TS or anything was JUST TOO INDISCREET. WAKE UP, THERE! This is the Aquarian Age, whether you like it or not and people are going to say what they feel, whether anyone likes it or not. WATCH OUT! The Aquarian person is pouring it right on your old head, kinda like a water balloon. A. Safron Keith: I think one can rave and accuse, but for myself, I have learned the hard karmic lesson that we all live in vehicles with thin skins and you just don't point out that the emporor has no clothes, unless you are a very small child. Some may point out your similar lack of clothing and the emporor may rip them off. Very veiled, Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:45:27 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Rave, but you may pay consequences Message-ID: <33CC19A7.679E@eden.com> JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > > Personally, I have found that this is what the real Internet is about. > People speaking their minds FREELY, as in the Aquarian mode. > And if that pisses people off, they can start their own list. I, myself, > have been verbally chided by those who think what I had to say > about the LCC, TS or anything was JUST TOO INDISCREET. > > WAKE UP, THERE! This is the Aquarian Age, whether you like it > or not and people are going to say what they feel, whether anyone > likes it or not. > > WATCH OUT! The Aquarian person is pouring it right on your old > head, kinda like a water balloon. > > A. Safron > > Keith: I think one can rave and accuse, but for myself, I have learned the > hard karmic lesson that we all live in vehicles with thin skins and you just > don't point out that the emporor has no clothes, unless you are a very small > child. Some may point out your similar lack of clothing and the emporor may > rip them off. > > Very veiled, > Keith Price I still wonder if one sees something is wrong, one should keep quiet. Speaking up for the right reason and right cause requires courage. Fear of present or future consequences cloud our thinking and action and thus prevents us from speaking the right thing. Unless one keeps an open mind and deals with everything in a open and direct manner, we get into the stressful conflict within us. We know we should speak up. We dont speak up for various mundane reasons and on goes the inner conflict thus producing strain and may be leading to a good source of income to the shrinks. Just my 2 cents. YMDMV From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:55:38 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <199707160051.UAA17632@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: TS-L? > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 4:51 PM > > >One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never > >appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. > > Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to > subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was > meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? -- THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY -- General List -- ts-l@theosophia.org Moderated discussion list hosted by the T.S. To subscribe, write to olcott@theosophia.org. To unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "unsubscribe" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:51:03 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <33CC1AF7.AB6@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > A simple question? Are the members of TSA being informed of ts-l? Anyone has > seen anything published in AT? A) AT hasn't been published in MONTHS (Yes, I know what you really mean, and I do not believe it has been mentioned in the Quest). B) I am putting on the finishing touches on a guide to the Internet for TS members, which will include the mailing list information. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:57:54 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <199707160053.UAA18324@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: TS-L? > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 5:50 PM > > At 05:51 PM 7/15/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: > >>One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never > >>appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. > > > >Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to > >subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was > >meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? > > > > A simple question? Are the members of TSA being informed of ts-l? Anyone has > seen anything published in AT? > > > MKRamadoss > TSA Member in good standing and dues paid uptodate. > > PS: I am not in the habit of calling and finding out. I think membership > should be notified if ts-l is an "official" activity of TSA. > > -- THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY -- General List -- ts-l@theosophia.org Moderated discussion list hosted by the T.S. To subscribe, write to olcott@theosophia.org. To unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "unsubscribe" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 19:58:41 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <33CC1CC1.4FAB@eden.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > > A simple question? Are the members of TSA being informed of ts-l? Anyone has > > seen anything published in AT? > > A) AT hasn't been published in MONTHS (Yes, I know what you really > mean, and I do not believe it has been mentioned in the Quest). > > B) I am putting on the finishing touches on a guide to the Internet for > TS members, which will include the mailing list information. > > Bart Lidofsky Thanks for the information. Do you know if this is going to be published in Quest or to be mailed separately? If latter, I wonder if it can be distributed via the web or e-mail thus saving a lot of money to TSA? (or even posted here on theos-l/theos-news) MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:05:13 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: <199707160101.VAA20554@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: KABOOM! > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 1:03 PM > > Ann, > > You really must do something about this carmic burden you've acquired. > To those in the astrological know, I'm cursed with Pluto square Venus for two years now. It ends, mercifully, at the end of this year. Carmically or comically? Anyway, let me know what goes down at Olcott whille I paint my kitchen, fight State Farm and try to keep my wits about me. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:00:52 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <199707160101.VAA20542@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: TS-L? > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 5:43 PM > > At 05:51 PM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >>One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never > >>appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. > > > >Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to > >subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was > >meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? > > > I am glad that you are inquiring about ts-l here. Has anyone who has seen > ts-l and/or nl-l msgs have ever seen theos-xxxx or theos-talk mentioned? > > ..............doss Here is a sample of one discussion. I have unsubscribed due to the chaotic quality of my life at this time. Enjoy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Joni Garcia Hello, I am interested in discussing Thoreau, especially how his concept of Civil Disobedience reflects his views on nature. Would anyone care to share their ideas on this? 2. I would really like to talk to anyone that knows anything about quickening your karma. It really seems to work when you ask the Masters to do this. Has anyone else had any experience with this? Let me know... Shar779 3. From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: more quotable quotes Hi, whoever is out there, I think that quoting a few passages from what I happen to be reading, and find interesting, might be a good way to get some discussion going on this mailing list. So here goes some more. A few days ago I received a bonus book for rejoining the Noetic Science Institute. The book is "Tying Rocks to Clouds" by Wm. Elliott. It's a series of interviews Elliott did with well known spirtual leaders. He asked such questions as "What is the meaning of life?" "What is god?". So far, my favorite interview is the one with Jean Houston. Here are her nuggets: "What used to be called 'sin' is now called 'unskilled behavior'." Restating good old Buddhist principles in a modern Western manner. "Consciousness is always altering. That is the state of consciousness." I never thought of it in quite that way before. It makes consciousness be liquid or even gaseous, or even more diaphanous. "People said to the Buddha, ' Sir, what are you? Are you a god?" "No," Buddha said. "An angel?" "No," "Then what are you?" "I am just awake." Again restating an old Buddhist principle in terms I can better understand. Jean Houston's ancestors are Sam Houston, and Robert E. Lee. That was rather unexpected ... such illustrious, sedate ancestry for a New Age trail blazer. Here are 2 quotes I liked from Elliott's interview with Rabbi Harold Kushner: "God is found through relationship" Hmm, nice. "The highest ideal is to become a human being." That too makes me smile & feel good. Hope these interest you, and spark some comments. Liesel 4. In case you aren't aware: Our own Quest Books (TPH) first published "Tying Rocks to Clouds" as a hardback and then sold the paperback rights. William Elliot was a speaker at our Annual Convention 2 years ago. He gave a wonderful presentation of his book and what went into it. The part many people enjoyed most was the tape recording he played of the Dalai Lama laughing. Joan McDougall -- THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY -- General List -- ts-l@theosophia.org Moderated discussion list hosted by the T.S. To subscribe, write to olcott@theosophia.org. To unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "unsubscribe" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:35:03 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: <8u+OSTA3cBzzEw4A@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970715140040_915358936@emout06.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Ann, > >You really must do something about this carmic burden you've acquired. > >Chuck the Hertic G R O A N What's a Hertic? The opposite of a Histic? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:32:48 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1129 Message-ID: <9evOOPAwaBzzEw70@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199707151602.MAA07340@cliff.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >WAKE UP, THERE! This is the Aquarian Age, whether you like it >or not and people are going to say what they feel, whether anyone >likes it or not. > >WATCH OUT! The Aquarian person is pouring it right on your old >head, kinda like a water balloon. That was so good I wanted to repeat it. So I have. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:22:37 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Criticism and Internet Message-ID: <0OwM6EANRBzzEwbA@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970715133833.00738ffc@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >At 10:23 PM 7/14/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >>In message <2.2.32.19970714204506.0072ff60@mail.eden.com>, >>ramadoss@eden.com writes >>>Hi, folks! You have not seen anything yet! Brace yourself for very exciting >>>and critical msgs no matter whether the subject is god or the insignificant >>>ant. >> >>Bracing myself .... >> >>Alan > > Not so fast. Be patient. It has to evolve in the natural course of events. > > ............doss > Awwww ... I was looking forward to it. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:09:26 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: <33CC1F46.721F@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > My insurance company claims that I may be at > fault if the door was "hit a certain way". Yes, it's true. > If I see an open car door on a busy street, I go for > that sucker and try to smash it into little pieces.:-) > What a bunch of baloney. I had an accident, where I was sure the other guy was at fault. A nearby cop pointed to the damage on my car, and showed how it demonstrated that I had to be at fault, and suggested, since the other car was completely unhurt, that I not report the accident, or else I would not only lose, but I would probably get points on my license. The damage to the other car door may show how much time you had to stop, how fast you were going, etc. You might not have hit the door on purpose, but you might not have been paying attention either (yes, WE know you were paying attention, but the insurance company doesn't). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:08:51 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <33CC1F23.7009@eden.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: ramadoss@eden.com > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: Re: TS-L? > > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 5:50 PM > > > > At 05:51 PM 7/15/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: > > >>One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never > > >>appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. > > > > > >Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to > > >subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was > > >meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? > > > > > > > A simple question? Are the members of TSA being informed of ts-l? Anyone has > > seen anything published in AT? > > > > > > MKRamadoss > > TSA Member in good standing and dues paid uptodate. > > > > PS: I am not in the habit of calling and finding out. I think membership > > should be notified if ts-l is an "official" activity of TSA. > > > > > -- THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY -- General List -- ts-l@theosophia.org > > Moderated discussion list hosted by the T.S. To subscribe, > write to olcott@theosophia.org. To unsubscribe, send a message > consisting of "unsubscribe" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org. Thanks for the information. Is there a fee (or suggested donation) to subscribe, I wonder? Also looks like subscribing is being done via tortous procedure and possible administrative delay. In all the mail lists I subscribe to -- quite a few - all that needs is to send a msg such as 'SUBSCRIBE XYZ-LIST MKR' to the listserver and one gets subscribed instantaneously. I wonder if the ts-l subscribing process includes any sort of review of the requests before being 'subscribed' as part of *moderation*. Just am little curious. Anyone knows. YMDMV MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:12:27 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <33CC1FFB.614E@eden.com> A. Safron wrote: > > ---------- > > From: ramadoss@eden.com > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: Re: TS-L? > > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 5:43 PM > > > > At 05:51 PM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >>One thing that occurred to me was that this exchange would never > > >>appear on ts-l or probably nl-l. > > > > > >Someone else favorably mentioned the ts-l list, and I tried to > > >subscribe to it, but failed, and concluded that the ti-l list was > > >meant. How does one subscribe to the ts-l list? > > > > > I am glad that you are inquiring about ts-l here. Has anyone who has seen > > ts-l and/or nl-l msgs have ever seen theos-xxxx or theos-talk mentioned? > > > > ..............doss > > Here is a sample of one discussion. I have unsubscribed due to > the chaotic quality of my life at this time. Enjoy. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 1. Joni Garcia > Hello, I am interested in discussing Thoreau, especially how his concept > of Civil Disobedience reflects his views on nature. Would anyone care to > share their ideas on this? > > 2. I would really like to talk to anyone that knows anything about > quickening > your karma. It really seems to work when you ask the Masters to do this. > Has anyone else had any experience with this? Let me know... > Shar779 > > > 3. From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) > Subject: more quotable quotes > > Hi, whoever is out there, > > I think that quoting a few passages from what I happen to be reading, and > find interesting, might be a good way to get some discussion going on this > mailing list. So here goes some more. A few days ago I received a bonus > book for rejoining the Noetic Science Institute. The book is "Tying Rocks > to Clouds" by Wm. Elliott. It's a series of interviews Elliott did with > well known spirtual leaders. He asked such questions as "What is the > meaning of life?" "What is god?". So far, my favorite interview is the one > with Jean Houston. > Here are her nuggets: "What used to be called 'sin' is now called > 'unskilled behavior'." Restating good old Buddhist principles in a modern > Western manner. > "Consciousness is always altering. That is the state of consciousness." I > never thought of it in quite that way before. It makes consciousness be > liquid or even gaseous, or even more diaphanous. > "People said to the Buddha, ' Sir, what are you? Are you a god?" "No," > Buddha said. "An angel?" "No," "Then what are you?" "I am just awake." > Again restating an old Buddhist principle in terms I can better understand. > Jean Houston's ancestors are Sam Houston, and Robert E. Lee. That was > rather unexpected ... such illustrious, sedate ancestry for a New Age trail > blazer. > Here are 2 quotes I liked from Elliott's interview with Rabbi Harold > Kushner: "God is found through relationship" Hmm, nice. "The highest ideal > is to become a human being." That too makes me smile & > feel good. > Hope these interest you, and spark some comments. > Liesel > > 4. In case you aren't aware: Our own Quest Books (TPH) first published > "Tying Rocks to Clouds" as a hardback and then sold the paperback rights. > William Elliot was a speaker at our Annual Convention 2 years ago. He gave > a wonderful presentation of his book and what went into it. The part many > people enjoyed most was the tape recording he played of the Dalai Lama > laughing. > Joan McDougall Thanks for the information. Interesting question on quickening of Karma. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:23:45 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <33CC22A1.1C0A@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > Moderated discussion list hosted by the T.S. To subscribe, > write to olcott@theosophia.org. To unsubscribe, send a message > consisting of "unsubscribe" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org. Correct, except that they are misusing (considering the technical knowledge, I would say innocently) the term "moderated". "Edited" is a more correct term, although the editing is minimal. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:26:50 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <33CC235A.3F8A@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > Do you know if this is going to be published in Quest or to be mailed > separately? If latter, I wonder if it can be distributed via the web or > e-mail thus saving a lot of money to TSA? (or even posted here on > theos-l/theos-news) It's a little long for publishing here. Eldon Tucker has suggested I use one of my 2 or 3 unused web sites to publish it; if I do, it will be someone expanded, as it will be me personally rather than through TSA. Otherwise, what happens to it depends on the reaction I receive. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:58:56 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <199707160258.UAA10074@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: > Correct, except that they are misusing (considering the technical >knowledge, I would say innocently) the term "moderated". "Edited" is a >more correct term, although the editing is minimal. A few questions, if I may: "Who" does the "editing?" Do "they" actually delete material from an individual's post? Do "they" ever change the wording of one's post? Have "they" ever refused to post someone's writings? How does one know what one can write and what one cannot? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:10:03 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970716031003.00de8728@mail.eden.com> At 09:25 PM 7/15/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >A. Safron wrote: > >> Moderated discussion list hosted by the T.S. To subscribe, >> write to olcott@theosophia.org. To unsubscribe, send a message >> consisting of "unsubscribe" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org. > > Correct, except that they are misusing (considering the technical >knowledge, I would say innocently) the term "moderated". "Edited" is a >more correct term, although the editing is minimal. > > Bart Lidofsky A lot can happen during moderating or editing. Unless we can see pre moderated/edited and post moderated/edited material one cannot judge what is being done. One wonders about the a need for moderation/editing? MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:12:58 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970716031258.00dde1c4@mail.eden.com> At 09:28 PM 7/15/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >> Do you know if this is going to be published in Quest or to be mailed >> separately? If latter, I wonder if it can be distributed via the web or >> e-mail thus saving a lot of money to TSA? (or even posted here on >> theos-l/theos-news) > > It's a little long for publishing here. Eldon Tucker has suggested I >use one of my 2 or 3 unused web sites to publish it; if I do, it will be >someone expanded, as it will be me personally rather than through TSA. >Otherwise, what happens to it depends on the reaction I receive. > > Bart Lidofsky > Glad you have taken the undertaking. I do not know how long it is. couple of days ago I posted a msg in 4 parts written by HPB which is almost 70K to 80K. You can expect a good amount of support and good critique. Would look for the material. ...........mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:14:25 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970716031425.00ddc9c0@mail.eden.com> At 10:59 PM 7/15/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Bart wrote: > >> Correct, except that they are misusing (considering the technical >>knowledge, I would say innocently) the term "moderated". "Edited" is a >>more correct term, although the editing is minimal. > >A few questions, if I may: > >"Who" does the "editing?" > >Do "they" actually delete material from an individual's post? Do "they" >ever change the wording of one's post? Have "they" ever refused to post >someone's writings? How does one know what one can write and what one cannot? > > >Kym > You raised the exact questions I had in mind. ...........mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 03:10:29 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Rave, but you may pay consequences Message-ID: <33d33542.1762488@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Doss wrote: > I still wonder if one sees something is wrong, one should keep >quiet. Speaking up for the right reason and right cause requires >courage. That raises an issue that could be its own discussion - truth vs. goodness. I see them as a pair of opposites, between which an optimal balance should be sought. There is a time to be truthful, and a time to be tactful. It is the intuition's job to tell what is appropriate when, and fixed rules that the mind finds comfortable are inappropriate. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:30:34 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Rave, but you may pay consequences Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970716033034.00702894@mail.eden.com> At 11:23 PM 7/15/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Doss wrote: > >> I still wonder if one sees something is wrong, one should keep >>quiet. Speaking up for the right reason and right cause requires >>courage. > >That raises an issue that could be its own discussion - truth vs. >goodness. I see them as a pair of opposites, between which an optimal >balance should be sought. There is a time to be truthful, and a time >to be tactful. It is the intuition's job to tell what is appropriate >when, and fixed rules that the mind finds comfortable are >inappropriate. > I agree. I believe that when issues come up or something is seen -- our intuition or intelligence will tell us what the right thing to do at that time. This can happen only if we are not conditioned by other factors such as fear, greed, ambition, egotism, pride etc. etc. Every rule has exceptions. So, I don't believe in fixed rules. If fixed rules are ok, then a computer can be programmed to respond better than human beings! ......mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:37:22 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Is God testing again? - Tom Message-ID: <199707160437.VAA13969@palrel3.hp.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > I'm afraid so. One of the spiritual and philosophical conclusions that I > concur with is: "There are only two emotions - Love and Fear." > What seems like "evil" or "hatred" is, to me, a manifestation of an intense > and towering fear. Hitler was a man tortured by his Fear - as were/are his > followers. I am, in no way, minimizing how dangerous and devastating that > Fear can be - and the immense suffering it can cause others - but I don't > think of Hitler as an "evil" man. To me, there is no such being. Nor do I > believe that Hitler's or anyone's "soul," "monad," "jiva," "ruh," "atman," > etc. . . can ever be "lost" - because if that were so, that would mean that > Fear is stronger than Love - that it can forever confiscate or prevent the > Re-Unification of what belongs to and is Love. I would modify this somewhat, myself. There is a qualitative difference between even intense fear and hatred, though fear does precede hatred. Depending on how you mean it, I agree that no one is evil. But evil can work through someone. Karmic missteps build a dweller body that has a kind of unholy intelligence. This entitized body is visible to some, extremely powerful, and capable of inspiring absolutely monstrous acts. It is true that the concept of evil has been misused. Deciding whether something is evil is a very error prone thing. All kinds of projections can arise. As Nietzsche wrote, (approximately) "Many a man has sought to drive out his demons, and only succeeded in entering the swine himself." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:52:52 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: On evil - Titus Message-ID: <33CC61B4.171F@micron.net> Titus wrote: > I would modify this somewhat, myself. There is a qualitative difference > between even intense fear and hatred, though fear does precede hatred. I found your post quite interesting, however it did raise some questions. Would you be more specific on what you mean by a "qualitative difference?" > Depending on how you mean it, I agree that no one is evil. But evil can work > through someone. Karmic missteps build a dweller body that has a kind of > unholy intelligence. This entitized body is visible to some, extremely > powerful, and capable of inspiring absolutely monstrous acts. When you say that "evil can work through someone" - are you saying that evil is an "energy" or "being" all its own - does it have its own consciousness? And, the "dweller body" receives or houses some of this "evil" - and the "unholy intelligence" is the evil itself, or is it something else? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 02:55:11 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Do Masters want Chelas or Slaves? Message-ID: > WAKE UP, THERE! This is the Aquarian Age, whether you like it > or not and people are going to say what they feel, whether anyone > likes it or not. > > WATCH OUT! The Aquarian person is pouring it right on your old > head, kinda like a water balloon. > > A. Safron > > Keith: I think one can rave and accuse, but for myself, I have learned the > hard karmic lesson that we all live in vehicles with thin skins and you just > don't point out that the emporor has no clothes, unless you are a very small > child. Some may point out your similar lack of clothing and the emporor may > rip them off. > > Very veiled, > Keith Price I still wonder if one sees something is wrong, one should keep quiet. Speaking up for the right reason and right cause requires courage. Fear of present or future consequences cloud our thinking and action and thus prevents us from speaking the right thing. Unless one keeps an open mind and deals with everything in a open and direct manner, we get into the stressful conflict within us. We know we should speak up. We dont speak up for various mundane reasons and on goes the inner conflict thus producing strain and may be leading to a good source of income to the shrinks. Just my 2 cents. Keith: I think we are approaching again a lot of age old questions. A Master needs slaves. An organization needs leades to lead and followers to follow. A spiritual leader needs disciples or chelas or he is casting pearls in the wind, to mix a metaphor. So what is the problem. The problem is in the psychology of the REBEL, the prometheian, the luciferian who will bring light to men at the expense of his own life and eternal well-being as an eternal PRAISER. I would say that 90 per cent if not all theosophists share the rebel psychology in that we would all follow our family religions if we just wanted to learn a tradition, a practice and not cause changes, distress, revolution to some extent. The problem is that TSA and other organizations are largely conservative ossified, if not petrified, although they do a lot of good work in archiving and transmitting the work so far accomplished But I asked this before, do the Masters want spiritual brown nosers? Do they want their astral asses kissed? Or do they admire the rebelious spirit, because they once, if not eternally share it, despite alligence to THE HEIRARCHY and ULTIMATE UNITIVE TRUTH? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:45:01 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Eastern/Egyptian Wisdom Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716004501.006b0958@elcocomp.com> Mark, Thank-you for your comprehensive answer although it seems much more complicated than I thought. I'm familiar with Steiner's terminology but find it difficult to associate it with what you've described. Perhaps I just need to dwell on it some more. Second question: This symbol (circle with the dot in the center) appears very frequently in the Egyptian Book of the Dead and is usually interpreted as 'the sun'. Would the sun be an appropriate characterization or physical symbol for what you've described? Would you expect this symbol to be throughout a book said to be dealing with the afterlife? I'm working on a theory that the Egyptian esoteric wisdom is the same as the one from the East but misinterpreted and mistranslated somewhat. Then Jerry wrote: Mark, you gave a great response, and I can only think of two other meanings for the circle and point. First is the O.T.O.'s interpretation, where the point is Hadit and the circle is Nuit. Second is my own I-Not-I Monad where the point is the I (self) and the circle is the Not-I (world). I'm always looking for word associations and have not heard of the word 'Nuit' before although it appears similar, phonetically, to the Egyptian 'Nut'. Any idea if these could have meant the same thing? Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 00:43:17 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: the point in the circle Message-ID: <199707160745.AAA03880@apple.com> >Mark, you gave a great response, and I can only think of >two other meanings for the circle and point. First is the >O.T.O.'s interpretation, where the point is Hadit and the >circle is Nuit. Second is my own I-Not-I Monad where >the point is the I (self) and the circle is the Not-I (world). Not so much an O.T.O. thing as a Thelema thing -- the O.T.O. doesn't own Crowley's tradition (though they do own his copyrights). But anmyway, my recollection is that it's easy to find point-in-circle references in 19th century esoteric Freemasonry writers such as Mackey and Pike. This is presumably where both whoever wrote the Book of Dzyan (Blavatsky?) and whoever wrote the Book of the Law (Crowley?) got it, and they may have derived it from the astrological glyph for the Sun. If it weren't so late at night I'd get you some more detailed references.... -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:08:35 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <33d84e03.8099405@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >Do "they" actually delete material from an individual's post? Do "they" >ever change the wording of one's post? Have "they" ever refused to post >someone's writings? How does one know what one can write and what one >cannot? I heard that this "Joan somebody" rules it with a iron hand, and that nothing she disagrees with has ever appeared on it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:44:43 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970716114443.00df8eec@mail.eden.com> At 06:28 AM 7/16/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Kym wrote: > >>Do "they" actually delete material from an individual's post? Do "they" >>ever change the wording of one's post? Have "they" ever refused to post >>someone's writings? How does one know what one can write and what one >cannot? > >I heard that this "Joan somebody" rules it with a iron hand, and that >nothing she disagrees with has ever appeared on it. > Interesting info. I am sure that if this person is a paid employee of TSA, then there may be others higher up behind her in helping her to *moderate*. Has anyone seen this person on theos-xxxx? May be it would be a good experience for this person to visit and see personally how an un moderated list works and works well. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:20:12 -0800 From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: <33CD10DC.D5B@modzer0.uafdorms.alaska.edu> >G R O A N Alan, did that "carmic" comment hurt your spleen too??? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:32:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Rave, but you may pay consequences Message-ID: <970716142949_1657500167@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-15 23:31:54 EDT, you write: > Some may point out your similar lack of clothing and the emporor may >rip them off. > > well, let me see, the last time I pointed out that the emperor was unclad was when I was wearing armor and Vitellius was on his way to get killed. That was a fun incarnation. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:08:57 -0800 From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Is this justifiable? Message-ID: <33CD1C49.A19@modzer0.uafdorms.alaska.edu> ---Theosophical Disclaimer--- I hereby declare that all statements following this message are NOT facts, theories, hypothesi, opinions, declarations, revelations, or assumptions based on accurate investigations or unarguable statistics. I have not called everyone in the world and asked for their opinions on the subjects of which I have made these statements about. I have not recieved complete autobiographies from the Earth's population of minerals, animals, plants, or humans, and, therefore, any statement herein made is only a generality based on my own personal experiences. If any statement contains sexist, racist, prejudiced, or any other disagreeable material, I apologize profusely. I can only attribute any insulting statements to the fact that I am not omniscient. Including the above, all statements contained within the following message are not judgements. I must repeat this. Including the above, ALL statements contained within the following message are NOT JUDGEMENTS. They are solely opinions based on the current experiences of my self. Any fact, theory, hypothesis, opinion, declaration, revelation, or assumption is mine alone, insofar as I know, and is not necessarily a fact, theory, hypothesis, opinion, declaration, revelation, or assumption of the Theosophical Society, the United States, my family, my friends, my next-door neighbor, his dog, the chrysanthemums that were digested by his cat the day before yesterday, or any one person or group of people which exist in the known or unknown universes or dimensions. I am not responsible for any misinterpretations, manipulation of definition, unintended insight, or "twisting of words" which result from the following statement or statements. Unfortunately, once again due to my lack of omniscience, I cannot guarantee that any facts, theories, hypothesi, opinions, declarations, revelations, or assumptions written by myself will be interpreted as they were intended to be. Any statement or statements made by myself are not intended as attacks on any one person or group or classification of peoples, and are also not intended as a means of classifying one or more persons. As before stated, they are only statements based on my own experiences in the few years that I have so far lived, and, therefore should not be interpreted as statements which are "written in stone". I apologize if any statements I make shall have a negative effect on any person, and, if a statement should have such an effect, please remember the first sentence of this paragraph. ---End of Disclaimer--- Due to the content of recent posts, I have found such a disclaimer to be necessary. It makes me kind of sad, really, to have to do this. Although it appears to be an attempt at humor, it also contains a somewhat serious message. If anyone can think of anything which might be added to this disclaimer, please let me know. This really shouldn't be necessary, but maybe it is? PS The huh huh thing was not necessarily a symbol of agreement to anyone's views. I thought it was funny, so I followed along. --- Jaqi From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:59:42 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Is this justifiable? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970716215942.006acca8@mail.eden.com> Can we try to simplify the disclaimer to a couple of short sentences? MKR At 03:09 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >---Theosophical Disclaimer--- >I hereby declare that all statements following this message are NOT >facts, theories, hypothesi, opinions, declarations, revelations, or >assumptions based on accurate investigations or unarguable statistics. >I have not called everyone in the world and asked for their opinions on >the subjects of which I have made these statements about. I have not >recieved complete autobiographies from the Earth's population of >minerals, animals, plants, or humans, and, therefore, any statement >herein made is only a generality based on my own personal experiences. >If any statement contains sexist, racist, prejudiced, or any other >disagreeable material, I apologize profusely. I can only attribute any >insulting statements to the fact that I am not omniscient. Including >the above, all statements contained within the following message are not >judgements. I must repeat this. Including the above, ALL statements >contained within the following message are NOT JUDGEMENTS. They are >solely opinions based on the current experiences of my self. Any fact, >theory, hypothesis, opinion, declaration, revelation, or assumption is >mine alone, insofar as I know, and is not necessarily a fact, theory, >hypothesis, opinion, declaration, revelation, or assumption of the >Theosophical Society, the United States, my family, my friends, my >next-door neighbor, his dog, the chrysanthemums that were digested by >his cat the day before yesterday, or any one person or group of people >which exist in the known or unknown universes or dimensions. > >I am not responsible for any misinterpretations, manipulation of >definition, unintended insight, or "twisting of words" which result from >the following statement or statements. Unfortunately, once again due to >my lack of omniscience, I cannot guarantee that any facts, theories, >hypothesi, opinions, declarations, revelations, or assumptions written >by myself will be interpreted as they were intended to be. > >Any statement or statements made by myself are not intended as attacks >on any one person or group or classification of peoples, and are also >not intended as a means of classifying one or more persons. As before >stated, they are only statements based on my own experiences in the few >years that I have so far lived, and, therefore should not be interpreted >as statements which are "written in stone". I apologize if any >statements I make shall have a negative effect on any person, and, if a >statement should have such an effect, please remember the first sentence >of this paragraph. >---End of Disclaimer--- > >Due to the content of recent posts, I have found such a disclaimer to be >necessary. It makes me kind of sad, really, to have to do this. >Although it appears to be an attempt at humor, it also contains a >somewhat serious message. > >If anyone can think of anything which might be added to this disclaimer, >please let me know. This really shouldn't be necessary, but maybe it >is? > >PS The huh huh thing was not necessarily a symbol of agreement to >anyone's views. I thought it was funny, so I followed along. > >--- >Jaqi > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:20:20 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Is God testing again? Message-ID: <199707162218.SAA01229@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Is God testing again? > Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 10:50 PM > > Kym wrote: > > >Uh. . .Earth to Bart. . .Earth to Bart. . .Hello?. . .Alert!. . .incoming > >message. . .***JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE QUESTIONS OR DISAGREES >WITH SOMEONE ELSE DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE "SO FILLED WITH >UNREASONING HATRED"***. . .do you copy?. . .Bart?. . .Earth to > >Bart. . .do you copy?. . .Bart! Are you playing with the suction conduit >again?. . .Earth to Bart. . .do you copy?. . .Earth to Bart, are you there?. . . > > All this from the same individual who said that political > conservatives have "hatred for the poor" just because they have a > solution for what 32 years of liberalism has failed to do. > > >Nothing but static was ever received from Commander Bart's slick ship - the > >world wailed with grief - and then, with love, named some squiggly strip of > >asphalt deep in the heart of Kansas "Lidofsky Lane." > > Are you discriminating against Kansans, now? They're people too, you > know. I think. YES! And I think that God is greatly testing us by creating personalities such as Tom Robertson. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:44:34 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: <199707162241.SAA06750@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: KABOOM! > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 8:10 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > My insurance company claims that I may be at > > fault if the door was "hit a certain way". Yes, it's true. > > If I see an open car door on a busy street, I go for > > that sucker and try to smash it into little pieces.:-) > > What a bunch of baloney. > > I had an accident, where I was sure the other guy was at fault. A > nearby cop pointed to the damage on my car, and showed how it > demonstrated that I had to be at fault, and suggested, since the other > car was completely unhurt, that I not report the accident, or else I > would not only lose, but I would probably get points on my license. > > The damage to the other car door may show how much time you had to > stop, how fast you were going, etc. You might not have hit the door on > purpose, but you might not have been paying attention either (yes, WE > know you were paying attention, but the insurance company doesn't). > > Bart Lidofsky Picture this, Bart. A narrow two-lane side street with parked cars in either sides. On side has a large ice cream truck with kids buzzing around. As I aproach north on said street, car insists on going south. We are all sandwiched together, when suddenly, a the lady whose car is on my right decides that at that moment she just has to get a ice cream for her screaming 4-yr-old. She opens her car door at the precise moment that I am trying to worm my way through this tight squeeze on the street. The tip of my front hood hits the side of her door as she is opening it. Kaboom! Glass all over the street. Her car door crumples up like and accordian. Who's a fault? Was I supposed to be psychic and know she was to open her car door at that moment? Should I have taken a different street? SHould ice cream trucks be banned from parking? I think this one is for DrPsionic! If they make a judgement against me, I'll know it was pointless. There's no way I could have prevented this except to pull over and wait till the street cleared. Which is probably what I will do in the future. I swear, I never thought anyone would open their door on such a crowded situation. For kickers, when I asked the lady if she had insurance, she told me "no" and told me I had no business driving. She never told me her name, never produced a driver's license or any ID. I asked the kid what her mother's name was and he said, "I don't know". She then produced a slip of paper with the car owner's name and address on it (a man). My guess is she was a Polish illegal, of which there are many in my neighborhood, being hired to watch someone's kid for low wages. I'm really interested to see how this turns out, not from the insurance end, but from the legal part. The policeman I reported it to was practically salivating at my story. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:21:48 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: On evil - Titus Message-ID: <199707170021.RAA07340@palrel3.hp.com> > I found your post quite interesting, however it did raise some > questions. > > Would you be more specific on what you mean by a "qualitative > difference?" I think a different word for hate versus fear is useful because the two feel different. How are they different? Hmmm ... it's difficult enough to give definitions of other emotions, but to try to verbalize it: Hate is more an attacking emotion, fear more of a defending one. Like you, I've seen that people fear first, then hate. But fear does not always turn into hate. >> Depending on how you mean it, I agree that no one is evil. But evil can work >> through someone. Karmic missteps build a dweller body that has a kind of >> unholy intelligence. This entitized body is visible to some, extremely >> powerful, and capable of inspiring absolutely monstrous acts. > When you say that "evil can work through someone" - are you saying that > evil is an "energy" or "being" all its own - does it have its own > consciousness? And, the "dweller body" receives or houses some of this > "evil" - and the "unholy intelligence" is the evil itself, or is it > something else? I would say that evil is an energy. According to some, including my teacher, Ann Ree Colton, all thought or emotion creates forms in the ether. These forms have a kind of intelligence but a kind that does not evolve. Others who put themselves on a similar wavelength of thought can be influenced by these discarnate forms. World War II was a phenomenon where the collective evils and hidden consent to stay on wavelengths of jealousy emptied out into consciousness and thereby produced a genius for destruction. M. Scott Peck gave a psychological/clinical definition of evil. He found in certain persons a core of unhealthy psychic energy that dispersed any kind of probing, yet influenced behavior and thoughts to perpetuate itself. He even wrote a section on possession and exorcism, showing that in extreme cases this energy could actually possess a person, changing their features and behavior into something totally foreign. Interestingly, he found that it is when this energy was exposed that it really struck the hardest. Ignorance is the ultimate cause of evil, which is simply the shadow side of conventional good, or that is the blind following of rigid rules. With more consciousness, we have more true Good (capital) and less destructive consequences. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:44:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: In message <199707160101.VAA20554@cliff.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >I paint >my kitchen, fight State Farm and try to keep my wits about me. Thye gave me a very nice USA atlas when I visited .... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:43:54 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Spleen? Message-ID: In message <33CD10DC.D5B@modzer0.uafdorms.alaska.edu>, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >>G R O A N > >Alan, did that "carmic" comment hurt your spleen too??? No. I was highly amused, but it was an awful pun :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:18:28 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Do Masters want Chelas or Slaves? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716191828.007bfe90@90.0.0.1> Keith: >A Master needs slaves. There is more than one definition of "Master". Besides the one that is the owner of slaves, we have someone highly skilled, adept at some area of life. And there are some people that are highly skilled at spiritual unfoldment, adepts or Masters of life. >An organization needs leaders to lead and followers to follow. A cult that uses power and mind control wants people to boss around. But that is only one kind of organization. Other groups exist with altruistic aims, and seek to serve others. Not all organizations are malevolent and harmful to the welfare of humanity. >A spiritual leader needs disciples or chelas or he is casting >pearls in the wind, to mix a metaphor. Perhaps a fake one does, someone on an ego trip and lacking in genuine spirituality. A real guru is like a great artist, producing wonderful creations in the world, unconcerned with the size of admiring audience that is attracted for the show. >So what is the problem. The problem is in the psychology of >the REBEL, the Promethean, the luciferian who will bring >light to men at the expense of his own life and eternal >well-being as an eternal P RAISER. We do have to take responsibility for our own progress, and not depend on others to do it for us. That sometimes means waking up to our surrounding circumstances and making changes. We may quit groups and discover that some of our friends are really a destructive influence on us -- and walk away to new friends and activities. This does not mean that a guru is not important. But it's up to us to judge when we need to seek out expert training and when we need to walk alone on the path. >I would say that 90 per cent if not all theosophists share >the rebel psychology in that we would all follow our family >religions if we just wanted to learn a tradition, a practice >and not cause changes, distress, revolution to some extent. We're all questioning what we're taught by society, and no longer accept the status quo. Often our spiritual awakening goes hand-in-hand with personal problems or external conflict, as life is adjusting itself about us and we're in a state of progressive turbulence. >The problem is that TSA and other organizations are largely >conservative ossified, if not petrified, although they do >a lot of good work in archiving and transmitting the work >so far accomplished. The main function that they've concentrated on was in an educational aspect, of preserving the basic philosophy and making it available to future generations. But we can only go so far in reading the books before we want something more, and the theosophical groups are lacking in that respect. They aren't Lessor Mysteries, with a lineage of gurus waiting to be our spiritual trainers. We have to look elsewhere or to ourselves for the next step. >But I asked this before, do the Masters want spiritual >brown nosers? Do they want their astral asses kissed? Not from what they've written. They want self-initiative, people willing to be independent centers of light in an otherwise dark world. It would seem silly to them, I think, were people to put their pictures on alters, place flowers before the pictures, and pray to them. On the other hand, there are many who would speak for the Masters that use that claim to attract a large following and perhaps fatten their wallets at the same time. >Or do they admire the rebellious spirit, because they once, >if not eternally share it, despite allegiance to THE HIERARCHY >and ULTIMATE UNITIVE TRUTH? I'd expect that they'd admire the willingness to think through and decide things on one's own. This manifests as a rebellious spirit when it is right to rebel; it manifests an faithful, to-the-death devotion when that is right. The important thing here is knowing which is right, in a particular place in life, and doing it. You're basically making a good point about the importance of us becoming independent thinkers, learning to live our lives with greater intelligence and higher standards that the world about us requires. But the urge to rebel must be balanced with the urge to establish harmony and unity. The two are both needed in living life skillfully. Objecting to and escaping the negative is only have of the process. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:43:52 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <33CD86E8.3E5F@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >> Moderated discussion list hosted by the T.S. To subscribe, > >> write to olcott@theosophia.org. To unsubscribe, send a message > >> consisting of "unsubscribe" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org. > > > > Correct, except that they are misusing (considering the technical > >knowledge, I would say innocently) the term "moderated". "Edited" is a > >more correct term, although the editing is minimal. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > A lot can happen during moderating or editing. Unless we can see pre > moderated/edited and post moderated/edited material one cannot judge what is > being done. One wonders about the a need for moderation/editing? Moderated means that they choose which posts get passed on to the list. Edited means that they cut and paste letters, sort of a manual digest form. The reason for the editing (and I believe Joan) is because they want to guarantee the privacy of the users (and therefore cut out the email address unless the user purposefully puts it in the body of the message). She also cuts out the garbage that far too many posters put at the end of their messages, so that we don't have to download a 100 line message to read the one line that the poster added. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:01:05 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: the point in the circle Message-ID: <33CD8AF1.68AD@sprynet.com> Tim Maroney wrote: > Not so much an O.T.O. thing as a Thelema thing -- the O.T.O. doesn't own > Crowley's tradition (though they do own his copyrights). Just the Caliphite O.T.O. (I am somewhat friendly with the National Secretary; he and I have both been in the game designing business, and I used to date the sister of his business partner, we're both into the Tarot, and we both believe that Crowley was more theosophical than either the O.T.O. or the T.S. would like to admit). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:15:39 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: <33CD8E5B.1ECE@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > The damage to the other car door may show how much time you had to > > stop, how fast you were going, etc. You might not have hit the door on > > purpose, but you might not have been paying attention either (yes, WE > > know you were paying attention, but the insurance company doesn't). > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Picture this, Bart. A narrow two-lane side street with parked cars in either sides. > On side has a large ice cream truck with kids buzzing around. As I aproach > north on said street, car insists on going south. We are all sandwiched together, > when suddenly, a the lady whose car is on my right decides that at that > moment she just has to get a ice cream for her screaming 4-yr-old. She opens her > car door at the precise moment that I am trying to worm my way through this > tight squeeze on the street. The tip of my front hood hits the side of her door as she > is opening it. Kaboom! Glass all over the street. Her car door crumples up > like and accordian. That should be good news for you; the fact that the door was just opening as you hit it implies that you did not have time to stop. > Who's a fault? Was I supposed to be psychic and know she was to open her > car door at that moment? Should I have taken a different street? SHould ice > cream trucks be banned from parking? I take your word for it. The insurance company doesn't trust you as much as I do. > with the car owner's name and address on it (a man). My guess is she was > a Polish illegal, of which there are many in my neighborhood, being > hired to watch someone's kid for low wages. I'm really interested to see > how this turns out, not from the insurance end, but from the legal part. > The policeman I reported it to was practically salivating at my story. My daughter got my car smashed up real good. From her side of the story, it seemed that she was 50% at fault. The insurance company agreed, and offered to pay 50% of the damage to the other car, whose driver didn't have collision insurance. The driver of the other car wanted 100%, and sued. He, too, was Polish, spoke no English, and, on the witness stand, told 3 radically different stories of how the accident took place, and practically admitted that he had been drinking before the accident. Result: my daughter won 100%, my insurance company collected 100% from HIS insurance company, and I got back my deductible. In any case, it looks like the damage to the other car WILL back up your story. But also note that: A) When you hit a car from behind, you are assumed at fault until proven not at fault. B) If you hit a car that is to the left of you, you are assumed at fault until proven not at fault. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:23:45 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970717032345.00df7ca0@mail.eden.com> At 10:45 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >> Moderated discussion list hosted by the T.S. To subscribe, >> >> write to olcott@theosophia.org. To unsubscribe, send a message >> >> consisting of "unsubscribe" to ts-l-request@theosophia.org. >> > >> > Correct, except that they are misusing (considering the technical >> >knowledge, I would say innocently) the term "moderated". "Edited" is a >> >more correct term, although the editing is minimal. >> > >> > Bart Lidofsky >> >> A lot can happen during moderating or editing. Unless we can see pre >> moderated/edited and post moderated/edited material one cannot judge what is >> being done. One wonders about the a need for moderation/editing? > > Moderated means that they choose which posts get passed on to the list. >Edited means that they cut and paste letters, sort of a manual digest >form. The reason for the editing (and I believe Joan) is because they >want to guarantee the privacy of the users (and therefore cut out the >email address unless the user purposefully puts it in the body of the >message). She also cuts out the garbage that far too many posters put at >the end of their messages, so that we don't have to download a 100 line >message to read the one line that the poster added. > > Bart Lidofsky > Thanks for the info. I think that TSA can be very proud to be an innovator in moderating maillist -- editing, protecting the privacy, cut out the *garbage* etc and may be many other list owners in cyberspace may take the cue and make their lists better. The person should have extraordinary abilities to do it. YMDMV ..........MKRamadoss There is no religion higher than Truth From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:25:46 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: the point in the circle Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970717032546.00ddbcb4@mail.eden.com> At 11:02 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >we both believe that Crowley was more theosophical than >either the O.T.O. or the T.S. would like to admit). > > Bart Lidofsky > I think otherwise. Crowley was a racist pure and simple. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:55:29 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Do Masters want Chelas or Slaves? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970717035529.00df1dfc@mail.eden.com> At 10:16 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Eldon B. Tucker wrote: >Keith: > >>A Master needs slaves. > >There is more than one definition of "Master". Besides the one >that is the owner of slaves, we have someone highly skilled, >adept at some area of life. And there are some people that are >highly skilled at spiritual unfoldment, adepts or Masters of >life. > MKR: I agree with Eldon. The Ones that Theosophy are familiar with, have *never* wanted any type of slave at any time, from what I have read. I am not yet spoken to any of Them to find out first hand. >>An organization needs leaders to lead and followers to follow. > >A cult that uses power and mind control wants people to boss >around. But that is only one kind of organization. Other >groups exist with altruistic aims, and seek to serve others. >Not all organizations are malevolent and harmful to the welfare >of humanity. > MKR: It depends on the organization. Leaders can lead without any organization. Many examples are there. Of course if a free individual wants to follow a person or an idealogy, it is his/her choice. If there are blind followers then I am reminded of the famous dictum -- blind following the blind and both falling into the ditch! >>A spiritual leader needs disciples or chelas or he is casting >>pearls in the wind, to mix a metaphor. > >Perhaps a fake one does, someone on an ego trip and lacking >in genuine spirituality. A real guru is like a great artist, >producing wonderful creations in the world, unconcerned with >the size of admiring audience that is attracted for the show. > MKR: A real spiritual leader needs no disciples or chelas. It is the ordinary mortal individual who goes begging to be considered as a disciple or a chela, and even then there is no certainty that the request will be acceeded to. >>So what is the problem. The problem is in the psychology of >>the REBEL, the Promethean, the luciferian who will bring >>light to men at the expense of his own life and eternal >>well-being as an eternal P RAISER. > >We do have to take responsibility for our own progress, and >not depend on others to do it for us. That sometimes means >waking up to our surrounding circumstances and making >changes. We may quit groups and discover that some of our >friends are really a destructive influence on us -- and >walk away to new friends and activities. > MKR: There is no problem as I see it. When a person starts to become an independent thinker and deals with the problems with an open mind and keep perception, he becomes a very creative problem solver and the creativity shows itself as unpredictable, because the independent thinker himself/herself does not know in advance how a problem will be resolved. You are correct that such individuals are also likely to be selfsacrificing for the good of his fellow men and women and creatures. >This does not mean that a guru is not important. But it's >up to us to judge when we need to seek out expert training >and when we need to walk alone on the path. > MKR: I do not know if we can judge for ourselves when we need a guru -- a type of spiritual consultant, I suppose. >>I would say that 90 per cent if not all theosophists share >>the rebel psychology in that we would all follow our family >>religions if we just wanted to learn a tradition, a practice >>and not cause changes, distress, revolution to some extent. > >We're all questioning what we're taught by society, and no >longer accept the status quo. Often our spiritual awakening >goes hand-in-hand with personal problems or external conflict, >as life is adjusting itself about us and we're in a state >of progressive turbulence. > MKR: You are right. We can be in the world but not of the world. >>The problem is that TSA and other organizations are largely >>conservative ossified, if not petrified, although they do >>a lot of good work in archiving and transmitting the work >>so far accomplished. > >The main function that they've concentrated on was in an >educational aspect, of preserving the basic philosophy and >making it available to future generations. But we can only >go so far in reading the books before we want something >more, and the theosophical groups are lacking in that >respect. They aren't Lessor Mysteries, with a lineage of >gurus waiting to be our spiritual trainers. We have to look >elsewhere or to ourselves for the next step. > MKR: Agreed. The organizations have a purely mechanical function to perform. Even HPB had clearly stated that TS was not meant to be a school of occultism to train occultists. Some may be under the wrong impression that this is so and even be looking forward to be recruited to join the future 6th RR community that is predicted and feel good about it. After all such self-improvement is just another selfish activity. >>But I asked this before, do the Masters want spiritual >>brown nosers? Do they want their astral asses kissed? > >Not from what they've written. They want self-initiative, >people willing to be independent centers of light in an >otherwise dark world. It would seem silly to them, I >think, were people to put their pictures on alters, place >flowers before the pictures, and pray to them. On the other >hand, there are many who would speak for the Masters that >use that claim to attract a large following and perhaps >fatten their wallets at the same time. > MKR: Agreed. They mean business in every sense of the word. They have a very difficult job to do and can use any help to help our fellow humans. Results are what counts not how we feel personally about Them. This is what has been stated in ML to APS. If some gullible person wants to follow someone who claims to have some special connection with Them, then it is their business. Let us grow up and act like grown up people and be self reliant and self directed. >>Or do they admire the rebellious spirit, because they once, >>if not eternally share it, despite allegiance to THE HIERARCHY >>and ULTIMATE UNITIVE TRUTH? > >I'd expect that they'd admire the willingness to think through >and decide things on one's own. This manifests as a rebellious >spirit when it is right to rebel; it manifests an faithful, >to-the-death devotion when that is right. The important thing >here is knowing which is right, in a particular place in life, >and doing it. > >You're basically making a good point about the importance of >us becoming independent thinkers, learning to live our lives >with greater intelligence and higher standards that the world >about us requires. But the urge to rebel must be balanced >with the urge to establish harmony and unity. The two are >both needed in living life skillfully. Objecting to and >escaping the negative is only have of the process. > >-- Eldon > MKR: Glad that we are discussing some very important and serious issues. And we can discuss without the nagging thought about moderating -- editing, deleting *garbage* etc. etc. and protecting privacy!!!!! Any one wants my phone numbers, e-mail and street address??? Send a $100 donation to TS Lodge San Antonio(c/o MKR) -- it is 501(c)(3) tax deductible and also sure to generate a lot of good Karma to the donor -- I am also sure that Karmic accounting department is very meticulous and never makes any mistakes!!! ........MKRamadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 22:39:32 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: the point in the circle Message-ID: <199707170538.WAA19792@apple.com> >>we both believe that Crowley was more theosophical than >>either the O.T.O. or the T.S. would like to admit). >I think otherwise. Crowley was a racist pure and simple. Reductionist biography is a rather futile exercise. Crowley had the failing of racism, just as Blavatsky had many character failings, which even her closest associates had to admit in writing about her. Both of the two also had many other aspects to their character, some positive, some negative, most ambiguous. Their multidimensionality doesn't make their flaws any less worthy of condemnation. It's just that trying to reduce a complex individual to a single failing is not particularly good biography. It would be like saying that Blavatsky was a foul-tempered faker, pure and simple. She was those things, but whe was also so much more. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 22:39:30 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: the point in the circle Message-ID: <199707170538.WAA12614@apple.com> >This symbol (circle with the dot in the center) appears >very frequently in the Egyptian Book of the Dead and is usually interpreted >as 'the sun'. Thanks for the tip. Flipping through the Budge edition I see this is correct. I hadn't realized the astrological glyph was so old. >I'm always looking for word associations and have not heard of the word >'Nuit' before although it appears similar, phonetically, to the Egyptian >'Nut'. Any idea if these could have meant the same thing? It's an Egyptian/French pun. Nuit is the starry night sky and "Nuit" is the French word for night. Nuit is one of the three divine beings in the Thelemic trinity, the other two being Hadit (or by modern rendering Heru-Behuti) and Ra-Hoor-Khuit (Ra-Horakhty). Whoever wrote Crowley's Book of the Law did have some sense of humor, or at least of wordplay. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:45:44 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Is this justifiable? Message-ID: <33f3caf6.7009693@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> >---Theosophical Disclaimer--- >I hereby declare that all statements following this message are NOT >facts, theories, hypothesi, opinions, declarations, revelations, or >assumptions based on accurate investigations or unarguable statistics. >I have not called everyone in the world and asked for their opinions on >the subjects of which I have made these statements about. I have not >recieved complete autobiographies from the Earth's population of >minerals, animals, plants, or humans, and, therefore, any statement >herein made is only a generality based on my own personal experiences. >If any statement contains sexist, racist, prejudiced, or any other >disagreeable material, I apologize profusely. I can only attribute any >insulting statements to the fact that I am not omniscient. Including >the above, all statements contained within the following message are not >judgements. I must repeat this. Including the above, ALL statements >contained within the following message are NOT JUDGEMENTS. They are >solely opinions based on the current experiences of my self. Any fact, >theory, hypothesis, opinion, declaration, revelation, or assumption is >mine alone, insofar as I know, and is not necessarily a fact, theory, >hypothesis, opinion, declaration, revelation, or assumption of the >Theosophical Society, the United States, my family, my friends, my >next-door neighbor, his dog, the chrysanthemums that were digested by >his cat the day before yesterday, or any one person or group of people >which exist in the known or unknown universes or dimensions. > >I am not responsible for any misinterpretations, manipulation of >definition, unintended insight, or "twisting of words" which result from >the following statement or statements. Unfortunately, once again due to >my lack of omniscience, I cannot guarantee that any facts, theories, >hypothesi, opinions, declarations, revelations, or assumptions written >by myself will be interpreted as they were intended to be. > >Any statement or statements made by myself are not intended as attacks >on any one person or group or classification of peoples, and are also >not intended as a means of classifying one or more persons. As before >stated, they are only statements based on my own experiences in the few >years that I have so far lived, and, therefore should not be interpreted >as statements which are "written in stone". I apologize if any >statements I make shall have a negative effect on any person, and, if a >statement should have such an effect, please remember the first sentence >of this paragraph. >---End of Disclaimer--- > >Due to the content of recent posts, I have found such a disclaimer to be >necessary. It makes me kind of sad, really, to have to do this. >Although it appears to be an attempt at humor, it also contains a >somewhat serious message. > >If anyone can think of anything which might be added to this disclaimer, >please let me know. This really shouldn't be necessary, but maybe it >is? It wasn't nearly long enough. I felt personally attacked by the whole thing, and I may never recover from all of its negative effects. You should have apologized for how judgmental you were being in not being judgmental. Do you really think you're that superior to judgmental people? By claiming non-omniscience, how do you think people who claim omniscience are going to feel? And the implicit sexism and racism that it was full of was obvious to all. Are you really a Theosophist? The "Wheaton oligarchy" might not approve, you know. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:03:22 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: ???ism Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970717130322.00711110@mail.eden.com> Any ???ism has no place in any truly civilized society, especially in a group which is working towards the welfare and betterment of our fellow beings and as well as all living entities. When someone is trying to insult or hurt someone whether it is deliberate or even unintended, one way I deal with is just to ignore as it reflects more on the sender or the does rather than the recipient. If one feels in ones heart (and soul) what one has done is right, then it does not matter how anyone in the whole universe feels about it. Just my 2 cents. YMDMV ............MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:03:48 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: the point in the circle Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970717130348.00717c68@mail.eden.com> At 01:39 AM 7/17/97 -0400, Tim Maroney wrote: >>>we both believe that Crowley was more theosophical than >>>either the O.T.O. or the T.S. would like to admit). > >>I think otherwise. Crowley was a racist pure and simple. > >Reductionist biography is a rather futile exercise. Crowley had the >failing of racism, just as Blavatsky had many character failings, which >even her closest associates had to admit in writing about her. Both of >the two also had many other aspects to their character, some positive, >some negative, most ambiguous. > >Their multidimensionality doesn't make their flaws any less worthy of >condemnation. It's just that trying to reduce a complex individual to a >single failing is not particularly good biography. It would be like >saying that Blavatsky was a foul-tempered faker, pure and simple. She was >those things, but whe was also so much more. > >-- >Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org > While there may be shortcomings with everyone, I still feel his very clear racist attitudes especially to Indians was shown when he used to refer to Jiddu Krishnamurti as a *nigger*. He as an Englishman should have known better. If this has to be ignored, it is ok but not with anyone who truly in their hearts believe in the human brotherhood/sisterhood. I also think his shortcomings are more far reaching and fundamental and cannot be compared to those of HPB. Just looking at her sacrifice and what she has left behind says it all. This was what I had in my mind when I made the comment. Hope this clarifies. Nothing personal, BTW. YMDMV MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:10:11 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: YMDMV Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970717131011.007125fc@mail.eden.com> At 03:09 PM 7/16/97 -0400, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: >---Theosophical Disclaimer--- >I hereby declare that all statements following this message are NOT >facts, theories, hypothesi, opinions, declarations, revelations, or >assumptions based on accurate investigations or unarguable statistics. >I have not called everyone in the world and asked for their opinions on >the subjects of which I have made these statements about. I have not >recieved complete autobiographies from the Earth's population of >minerals, animals, plants, or humans, and, therefore, any statement >herein made is only a generality based on my own personal experiences. >If any statement contains sexist, racist, prejudiced, or any other >disagreeable material, I apologize profusely. I can only attribute any >insulting statements to the fact that I am not omniscient. Including >the above, all statements contained within the following message are not >judgements. I must repeat this. Including the above, ALL statements >contained within the following message are NOT JUDGEMENTS. They are >solely opinions based on the current experiences of my self. Any fact, >theory, hypothesis, opinion, declaration, revelation, or assumption is >mine alone, insofar as I know, and is not necessarily a fact, theory, >hypothesis, opinion, declaration, revelation, or assumption of the >Theosophical Society, the United States, my family, my friends, my >next-door neighbor, his dog, the chrysanthemums that were digested by >his cat the day before yesterday, or any one person or group of people >which exist in the known or unknown universes or dimensions. > >I am not responsible for any misinterpretations, manipulation of >definition, unintended insight, or "twisting of words" which result from >the following statement or statements. Unfortunately, once again due to >my lack of omniscience, I cannot guarantee that any facts, theories, >hypothesi, opinions, declarations, revelations, or assumptions written >by myself will be interpreted as they were intended to be. > >Any statement or statements made by myself are not intended as attacks >on any one person or group or classification of peoples, and are also >not intended as a means of classifying one or more persons. As before >stated, they are only statements based on my own experiences in the few >years that I have so far lived, and, therefore should not be interpreted >as statements which are "written in stone". I apologize if any >statements I make shall have a negative effect on any person, and, if a >statement should have such an effect, please remember the first sentence >of this paragraph. >---End of Disclaimer--- > >Due to the content of recent posts, I have found such a disclaimer to be >necessary. It makes me kind of sad, really, to have to do this. >Although it appears to be an attempt at humor, it also contains a >somewhat serious message. > ===================================== >If anyone can think of anything which might be added to this disclaimer, >please let me know. This really shouldn't be necessary, but maybe it >is? ====================================== YMDMV can replace all of the above. I have found it to work. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:27:43 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: KABOOM! Message-ID: <199707171424.KAA26255@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: KABOOM! > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 10:16 PM > > In any case, it looks like the damage to the other car WILL back up > your story. > > But also note that: > > A) When you hit a car from behind, you are assumed at fault until > proven not at fault. > > B) If you hit a car that is to the left of you, you are assumed at > fault until proven not at fault. > Now that I've stopped seeing it only from my side, I realize there is the complicated legalities of it. I also think in that system someone has to be at fault in order to pay. I do not know if the other owner of the car even had insurance, since he wasn't there. There's a lot of mystery in my neighborhood about identities because of the IMS. There's been single family houses turned into boarding houses with 50 people only separated by hung sheets and sleeping on a mattress on the floor. These people are dying to get into America and make a living, because the economics are so bad in Poland. But not everyone goes the illegal route. I have good friends that have become citizens and hold good jobs. My family came over on the boat to Ellis Island when my mother was six from Czechoslovakia. I've resigned myself to whatever the insurance co. decides, since they are bound by their own rules. After, I just want my car fixed, which is mostly body work. But, thanks for the info, Bart. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:13:59 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Uncle Al, a Racist?? Message-ID: <199707172322.TAA23230@NetGSI.com> >I think otherwise. Crowley was a racist pure and simple. > > MKR Doss, I'm surprised at you. What causes you to draw this conclusion? Please explain the difference between AC's writings and HPB's "root races" and hierachies? I know that HPB was not a racist, but some of her outdated writing sounds it. I think that this is also Crowley's problem. 19th century Brits were a bit full of themselves, but few considered it racist. I am not aware of AC ever writing anything to the effect that one race was superior to another. Sexism is another matter. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:34:31 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Nut vs Nuit Message-ID: <199707172338.TAA23609@NetGSI.com> >I'm always looking for word associations and have not heard of the word >'Nuit' before although it appears similar, phonetically, to the Egyptian >'Nut'. Any idea if these could have meant the same thing? > >Gisele The same, yes. Nuit is the older spelling, which the GD (and AC) adopted at the turn of this century. The correct spelling is Nut. In the same vein but opposite chronologically, Hadit was originally Had. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:48:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: On evil - Titus Message-ID: In message <199707170021.RAA07340@palrel3.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >Ignorance is the ultimate cause of evil, which is simply the shadow side of >conventional good, or that is the blind following of rigid rules. With more >consciousness, we have more true Good (capital) and less destructive >consequences. Delete "simply" - ? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:30:01 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: ts-l Message-ID: <199707180149.VAA24216@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >"Who" does the "editing?" > >Do "they" actually delete material from an individual's post? Do "they" >ever change the wording of one's post? Have "they" ever refused to post >someone's writings? How does one know what one can write and what one cannot? > > >Kym > Dear Kym, They actually delete material from a post, like flaming and bickering, and maligning other Theosophists ... stupidities of that sort. Any objections? I don't have any at all. I think theos-l is getting to be one big waste of time, and I'm not contributing to it anymore. I don't know whether Joan, the ts-l moderator, ever refused anyone's writing, because the whole thing is only 2 or 3 weeks old. If you have any common decency, and a few spare brains in your head, you'll know what to write and what not to. It doesn't take any more than that. But you seem to be wanting to continually revolt against you don't know yourself what. I'd rather discuss things of interest to Theosophists, and I'm hoping ts-l will be a vehicle for that. Best wishes Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:58:39 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970718025839.006a41e0@mail.eden.com> At 09:48 PM 7/17/97 -0400, liesel f. deutsch wrote: >>"Who" does the "editing?" >> >>Do "they" actually delete material from an individual's post? Do "they" >>ever change the wording of one's post? Have "they" ever refused to post >>someone's writings? How does one know what one can write and what one cannot? >> >> >>Kym >> >Dear Kym, > >They actually delete material from a post, like flaming and bickering, and >maligning other Theosophists ... stupidities of that sort. Any objections? I >don't have any at all. I think theos-l is getting to be one big waste of >time, and I'm not contributing to it anymore. >I don't know whether Joan, the ts-l moderator, ever refused anyone's >writing, because the whole thing is only 2 or 3 weeks old. If you have any >common decency, and a few spare brains in your head, you'll know what to >write and what not to. It doesn't take any more than that. But you seem to >be wanting to continually revolt against you don't know yourself what. I'd >rather discuss things of interest to Theosophists, and I'm hoping ts-l will >be a vehicle for that. >Best wishes >Liesel > Dear Liesel: >From what I have seen, all successful maillists are on autopilot with no human intervention. You see the person supporting the maillists lurking and is seen only to take care of technical issues dealing with software problems or the like not the content of any of the messages. For the first time in human history, Internet is the only really free medium with no intervention of editorial or administrative control or editing or censoring of any kind. Organizations which are used to control do find it a very difficult medium to deal with as you lose control you are used to. Just the fact that I am typing this msg and you and 100s of others are going to read it is the typical example. Of course if someone wants it otherwise, then it is their choice. Many do not participate or read the msgs on Internet even though it is their duty to do everything to spread Theosophy. It is like many who do not subscribe to newspapers and rarely read them, and this kind of tendency has spread illiteracy in this country and elsewhere. The older generation fade or die away and today's computer literate generation succeed, they will see the real future and utility and opportunity in using Internet as a medium for its speed and cost effectiveness and world wide audience. May be we all have time to wait and be patient. I feel that this basic trend of Internet is not going to go away, at least in this part of the world and as every man, woman and child is wired to Internet. I would be looking forward to watching and participating in all the developments, which I expect to be far reaching in its impact. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:46:10 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Just a Thought Message-ID: <33e50144.60639221@mail.earthlink.net> Paraphrased and Abridged from the Writings of G. De Purucker THEOSOPHY: This is a compound Greek word: a "divine being," a "god:; and sophia, "wisdom." Therefore it means Divine Wisdom.. Theosophy is the timeless wisdom-Religion of the archaic ages, and is as old as thinking man. It was delivered to the first human protoplasts, the first thinking human beings on our Earth, by highly intelligent spiritual Entities from superior worlds. This Ancient Doctrine, this Esoteric System, has been passed down from guardians to guardians to guardians through innumerable generations to our own time. Furthermore, portions of this original body of doctrines have been given out at various periods to vicarious races in various parts of the world by those Guardians when humanity stood in need of such extension and elaboration of spiritual and intellectual thought. Theosophy is not a syncretistic religion-philosophy-science; that is, it is not a system of thought which has been put together piecemeal from parts or portions taken by some great mind from other religions or philosophies. Actually, Theosophy is that single System of systematic formulation of the facts of the visible and invisible Nature, which, as expressed through the illuminated human mind, takes the apparently separate forms of Religion and of Philosophy and of Science. Theosophy may likewise be described as the formulation in human language of the true nature, structure, origin, destiny and operations of the Kosmical Universe, and of the multitudes of beings which in-fill it. In Blavatsky's words, it is "the substratum and basis of all the world-religions and philosophies, taught and practiced by a few elect ever since man became a thinking being." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:23:26 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <33d2e9f5.7975769@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Doss wrote: >At 06:28 AM 7/16/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >>I heard that this "Joan somebody" rules it with a iron hand, and that >>nothing she disagrees with has ever appeared on it. >Interesting info. I am sure that if this person is a paid employee of TSA, >then there may be others higher up behind her in helping her to *moderate*. > >Has anyone seen this person on theos-xxxx? May be it would be a good >experience for this person to visit and see personally how an un moderated >list works and works well. I was just kidding about Joan. She is friendly and laid back and would probably be just the opposite of heavy-handed in moderating a list. It would take quite a conspiracy theory (which, according to someone else whom I read recently, is "the sophistication of the unintelligent") to believe that she significantly "suppresses the seeking of truth." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 97 20:32:59 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: Racism, Crowley, Blavatsky Message-ID: <199707180330.UAA33000@apple.com> >While there may be shortcomings with everyone, I still feel his very clear >racist attitudes especially to Indians was shown when he used to refer to >Jiddu Krishnamurti as a *nigger*. He as an Englishman should have known >better. If this has to be ignored, it is ok but not with anyone who truly in >their hearts believe in the human brotherhood/sisterhood. I also think his >shortcomings are more far reaching and fundamental and cannot be compared to >those of HPB. Just looking at her sacrifice and what she has left behind >says it all. Hi Doss, I would hate to presume to tell anyone else what an appropriate level of disgust towards a flawed character like Crowley would be. Your concerns about Crowley's racism are generally well-founded and if that puts you off him for good, that's your right and your privilege. I do have some problem if you insist that because someone had a serious flaw like this, then they could have had no positive qualities at all, which seems to be the meaning of "he was a racist pure and simple." It's not an accurate biography. How about something like this: "I would never want to give any support to such a racist, so I am not concerned with whatever value others may find in him"? A nit in your presentation: I don't understand why you think an Englishman would "know better." Unfortunately, "nigger" was a very common slang term among Englishmen of Crowley's period for anyone on the swarthy side, Indian, African or otherwise. Most of these Englishmen didn't write in vernacular and so they didn't put it into print very often, whereas there are a few cases where the often-casual Crowley did (e.g., his account of the origin of "Ta-Ra-Ra-Boom-Dee-Ay", the letter entitled "Monsters, Niggers, Jews" in MTP -- which paradoxically argues that everyone should be admitted to Thelema regardless of their race!) I don't recall his use of this epithet toward Krishnamurti but it is quite believable. I'm sure many other Englishman were saying the same thing over their snifters. Finally, how do you feel about Blavatsky's statements about Australians and Africans in "The Secret Doctrine"? One problem that progressives face is that almost everyone from prior eras incorporates prejudices from their milieu, and if we start throwing them overboard every time we find an element of bigotry, we're left with a human history that appears unpopulated until a few decades ago. >This was what I had in my mind when I made the comment. Hope this clarifies. >Nothing personal, BTW. Nothing personal here either. I'm glad that racism is such a serious concern to you. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:48:06 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS-L? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970718044806.00d204b4@mail.eden.com> At 11:32 PM 7/17/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>At 06:28 AM 7/16/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: > >>>I heard that this "Joan somebody" rules it with a iron hand, and that >>>nothing she disagrees with has ever appeared on it. > >>Interesting info. I am sure that if this person is a paid employee of TSA, >>then there may be others higher up behind her in helping her to *moderate*. >> >>Has anyone seen this person on theos-xxxx? May be it would be a good >>experience for this person to visit and see personally how an un moderated >>list works and works well. > >I was just kidding about Joan. She is friendly and laid back and >would probably be just the opposite of heavy-handed in moderating a >list. It would take quite a conspiracy theory (which, according to >someone else whom I read recently, is "the sophistication of the >unintelligent") to believe that she significantly "suppresses the >seeking of truth." > Glad to know that you are just kidding. Anyone affected by Theosophy is fundamentally bound to be a self-thinking person with an open mind. But sometimes when you have to function within the framework of an organization, there are limitations that one has to work with due to various considerations. Also if a person is generally used to function in an environment where the person is used to have total control, then it becomes very difficult to have a real attitude change. Longer the person is used to such environment, more difficult it becomes. I have seen this phenomenon first hand with people I had interacted with. In any case, Joan has a very demanding job to do and it is likely to become more demanding as more and more subscribers start posting msgs and this is bound to happen over time. As I have always said, everyone in the staff of Olcott is over worked and are doing an outstanding job in a very difficult environment and having this in mind, let us help to make their job not any more difficult. If anyone at Olcott staff is reading this msg, let them pass it on to every one in the staff. ...........MKRamadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:58:57 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <33CEF7B2.25EE@micron.net> Apparently, I've missed several postings since other posts, such as the one below, are showing up with people responding to messages I've never seen. This is the second one I've come across. I'd like to respond to this one, but please be aware I've not seen the original - so my answer might end up being unrelated. >From ramadoss@eden.com response to Liesel's post: > >Dear Kym, > > > >They actually delete material from a post, like flaming and bickering, and > >maligning other Theosophists ... stupidities of that sort. Any objections? Yes, I loathe censored material. I want to hear all of what a person wants to say - whether I disagree or not. What someone considers worthy of deleting may, to another person, be valuable insight. > >I don't know whether Joan, the ts-l moderator, ever refused anyone's > >writing, because the whole thing is only 2 or 3 weeks old. If you have any > >common decency, and a few spare brains in your head, you'll know what to > >write and what not to. It doesn't take any more than that. But you seem to > >be wanting to continually revolt against you don't know yourself what. I'm sorry, Liesel, but I do know, this time for sure, what I am revolting against - a child molester (CWL) and, most importantly, the sheltering of this child molester. And if CWL actually slept with any of his students (which evidence does point to) - who was not yet an adult - then, he is, by penal and moral law, a rapist. But could he still have been a genuine clairvoyant? Yes. Did pen geniune words of wisdom and worth? Yes. But the more one knows, the more responsible they are - hence, the actions of CWL and the inactions of the TS are even more grievous. > >I'd > >rather discuss things of interest to Theosophists, and I'm hoping ts-l will > >be a vehicle for that. What is of interest to one Theosophist is may not be of interest to another. I hope you do find happiness on ts-l, but I would never be fulfilled on a list where what I could read was chosen for me. Thank you for addressing my questions anyway. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:58:44 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Racism, Crowley, Blavatsky Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970718045844.00d45498@mail.eden.com> At 11:34 PM 7/17/97 -0400, Tim Maroney wrote: >>While there may be shortcomings with everyone, I still feel his very clear >>racist attitudes especially to Indians was shown when he used to refer to >>Jiddu Krishnamurti as a *nigger*. He as an Englishman should have known >>better. If this has to be ignored, it is ok but not with anyone who truly in >>their hearts believe in the human brotherhood/sisterhood. I also think his >>shortcomings are more far reaching and fundamental and cannot be compared to >>those of HPB. Just looking at her sacrifice and what she has left behind >>says it all. > >Hi Doss, > >I would hate to presume to tell anyone else what an appropriate level of >disgust towards a flawed character like Crowley would be. Your concerns >about Crowley's racism are generally well-founded and if that puts you >off him for good, that's your right and your privilege. > >I do have some problem if you insist that because someone had a serious >flaw like this, then they could have had no positive qualities at all, >which seems to be the meaning of "he was a racist pure and simple." It's >not an accurate biography. How about something like this: "I would never >want to give any support to such a racist, so I am not concerned with >whatever value others may find in him"? > >A nit in your presentation: I don't understand why you think an >Englishman would "know better." Unfortunately, "nigger" was a very common >slang term among Englishmen of Crowley's period for anyone on the swarthy >side, Indian, African or otherwise. Most of these Englishmen didn't write >in vernacular and so they didn't put it into print very often, whereas >there are a few cases where the often-casual Crowley did (e.g., his >account of the origin of "Ta-Ra-Ra-Boom-Dee-Ay", the letter entitled >"Monsters, Niggers, Jews" in MTP -- which paradoxically argues that >everyone should be admitted to Thelema regardless of their race!) I don't >recall his use of this epithet toward Krishnamurti but it is quite >believable. I'm sure many other Englishman were saying the same thing >over their snifters. > >Finally, how do you feel about Blavatsky's statements about Australians >and Africans in "The Secret Doctrine"? One problem that progressives face >is that almost everyone from prior eras incorporates prejudices from >their milieu, and if we start throwing them overboard every time we find >an element of bigotry, we're left with a human history that appears >unpopulated until a few decades ago. > >>This was what I had in my mind when I made the comment. Hope this clarifies. >>Nothing personal, BTW. > >Nothing personal here either. I'm glad that racism is such a serious >concern to you. > >-- >Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org > thanks for the response. This issue of Crowley vs Jiddu Krishnamurti came up several months ago in I believe a post I saw in a newsgroup and was myself surprised. If Crowley's works has value for anyone, I have no problem because who am I to tell anyone what they should and should not like or favour or benefit from. The problem is that JK issue arose at a time when he was very well known around the world and in that context, to me a reference to him as "nigger" Krishnamurti is totally inappropriate even if it was acceptable terminology in the England of that time. Personally, any issue of any discrimination of anyone for any reason is a serious concern to me, even though most of the time there is not much a single individual can do. World would be a much better one if it could move to one of less discrimination. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:02:46 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970718050246.00ca1b0c@mail.eden.com> At 12:56 AM 7/18/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Apparently, I've missed several postings since other posts, such as the >one below, are showing up with people responding to messages I've never >seen. This is the second one I've come across. I'd like to respond to >this one, but please be aware I've not seen the original - so my answer >might end up being unrelated. > > >>From ramadoss@eden.com response to Liesel's post: > >> >Dear Kym, >> > >> >They actually delete material from a post, like flaming and bickering, and >> >maligning other Theosophists ... stupidities of that sort. Any objections? > >Yes, I loathe censored material. I want to hear all of what a person >wants to say - whether I disagree or not. What someone considers worthy >of deleting may, to another person, be valuable insight. > > >> >I don't know whether Joan, the ts-l moderator, ever refused anyone's >> >writing, because the whole thing is only 2 or 3 weeks old. If you have any >> >common decency, and a few spare brains in your head, you'll know what to >> >write and what not to. It doesn't take any more than that. But you seem to >> >be wanting to continually revolt against you don't know yourself what. > >I'm sorry, Liesel, but I do know, this time for sure, what I am >revolting against - a child molester (CWL) and, most importantly, the >sheltering of this child molester. And if CWL actually slept with any >of his students (which evidence does point to) - who was not yet an >adult - then, he is, by penal and moral law, a rapist. But could he >still have been a genuine clairvoyant? Yes. Did pen geniune words of >wisdom and worth? Yes. But the more one knows, the more responsible >they are - hence, the actions of CWL and the inactions of the TS are >even more grievous. > > >> >I'd >> >rather discuss things of interest to Theosophists, and I'm hoping ts-l will >> >be a vehicle for that. > >What is of interest to one Theosophist is may not be of interest to >another. I hope you do find happiness on ts-l, but I would never be >fulfilled on a list where what I could read was chosen for me. > >Thank you for addressing my questions anyway. > > >Kym > Kym: It is quite possible that some may not have seen all the msg. This morning I found out that due to some software problem some subscribers were deleted from theos-l. I hope this has not affected you. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:37:53 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Software trouble - Doss Message-ID: <33CF00D8.5E25@micron.net> Doss wrote: > Kym: It is quite possible that some may not have seen all the msg. This > morning I found out that due to some software problem some subscribers were > deleted from theos-l. I hope this has not affected you. Thanks for the information, doss. It seems I'm not deleted (or, then again, maybe I was?), but I am definitely missing some posts. Again, I appreciate the helpful heads-up. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:39:52 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Software trouble - Doss Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970718053952.00754bb8@mail.eden.com> At 01:35 AM 7/18/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Doss wrote: > >> Kym: It is quite possible that some may not have seen all the msg. This >> morning I found out that due to some software problem some subscribers were >> deleted from theos-l. I hope this has not affected you. > > >Thanks for the information, doss. It seems I'm not deleted (or, then >again, maybe I was?), but I am definitely missing some posts. Again, I >appreciate the helpful heads-up. > > >Kym > Kym: You can go and retrieve all the postings say since yesterday. Just send e-mail to listserv@vnet.net and in the body of the msg write INDEX THEOS-L. After you get the list, request which ever file you need. Files are stored by date. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:57:36 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <341518de.42484926@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Doss wrote: >Liesel wrote: >>They actually delete material from a post, like flaming and bickering, and >>maligning other Theosophists ... stupidities of that sort. Any objections? I >>don't have any at all. I think theos-l is getting to be one big waste of >>time, and I'm not contributing to it anymore. >>I don't know whether Joan, the ts-l moderator, ever refused anyone's >>writing, because the whole thing is only 2 or 3 weeks old. If you have any >>common decency, and a few spare brains in your head, you'll know what to >>write and what not to. It doesn't take any more than that. But you seem to >>be wanting to continually revolt against you don't know yourself what. I'd >>rather discuss things of interest to Theosophists, and I'm hoping ts-l will >>be a vehicle for that. >>Best wishes >>Liesel >> > >Dear Liesel: > >>From what I have seen, all successful maillists are on autopilot with no >human intervention. You see the person supporting the maillists lurking and >is seen only to take care of technical issues dealing with software problems >or the like not the content of any of the messages. > >For the first time in human history, Internet is the only really free medium >with no intervention of editorial or administrative control or editing or >censoring of any kind. I feel very similarly to Liesel. I would much prefer being involved in a discussion list with people who felt no freedom, and, if they did feel it, to not have it, to do what Liesel, with my agreement, calls "flaming and bickering, and maligning other Theosophists ... stupidities of that sort." I am looking forward to being involved in TS-L, and I hope the moderator strictly eliminates all such garbage that plagues this one, with the effect that "free" discussion of Theosophy is so stifled. Joan said that both Nathan Greer and John Algeo are active in the TS-L list, so anyone on this list who wants to discuss issues with them and other higher-ups at Wheaton without personally attacking them may have their chance. If freedom is not limited, it is non-existent. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:57:41 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <34161afb.43025883@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >I loathe censored material. I want to hear all of what a person >wants to say - whether I disagree or not. What someone considers worthy >of deleting may, to another person, be valuable insight. How could calling people names be a "valuable insight?" >I'm sorry, Liesel, but I do know, this time for sure, what I am >revolting against - a child molester (CWL) and, most importantly, the >sheltering of this child molester. And if CWL actually slept with any >of his students (which evidence does point to) - who was not yet an >adult - then, he is, by penal and moral law, a rapist. But could he >still have been a genuine clairvoyant? Yes. Did pen geniune words of >wisdom and worth? Yes. But the more one knows, the more responsible >they are - hence, the actions of CWL and the inactions of the TS are >even more grievous. I'll bet anyone even money right now that if they want to derogatorily discuss CWL, without personally attacking anyone in the discussion, they will freely be able to on the TS-L list. This may be a good opportunity to see the "truth-suppressing" "Wheaton oligarchy" in action. I hope someone brings up the CWL affair on that list, if only just to see what happens. If no one else does, I'll probably give it a try. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my words. >What is of interest to one Theosophist is may not be of interest to >another. I hope you do find happiness on ts-l, but I would never be >fulfilled on a list where what I could read was chosen for me. Eliminating bullshit will increase the quality of the discussions. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 97 9:22:11 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Indian racism Message-ID: <199707181322.JAA09462@leo.vsla.edu> I think this issue has come up before, Doss, but I must say there is something objectionable in your objections to people calling Krishnamurti a "nigger." You say he was such a wonderful well-known person, etc. and elsewhere make it clear that you think Indians are *not* niggers, but seem to think other dark people *are*. So it is not just wickedness but *inaccuracy* that bugs you about that. This offends me. Not just because although white myself I come from an interracial family (African-American/white) but because Indians are so obviously racist themselves. I wandered Bombay and Delhi in the company of several "Westerners" one of them from Ghana originally and very dark. He got many more looks of disgust and fear from Indians than he would have in a Western society; said so himself. (He lived in Canada.) Plus, there's color prejudice *within* Indian society. The statement "If you're white, you're all right, if you're brown stick around, if you're black get back" certainly fits the Aryan vs. Dravidian bigotry of India. Which alas is totally endorsed by HPB in the SD. Please clarify that you do *not* really mean "*We're* not niggers, *they* are" because more than once you have made statements that clearly imply such an attitude. KPJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:26:55 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970718132655.00e37358@mail.eden.com> At 03:58 AM 7/18/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Joan said that both Nathan Greer and John Algeo are active in the TS-L >list Glad to know that both of them are learning about maillist. What they are likely to see is a very limited view. They need to get out and see and get active in various other lists and newsgroups out there and much good can come out. We need to reach out and get more non members interested in Theosophy and related subjects so that the Theosophy Movement and TS can grow. MHO. .................MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:39:44 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Indian racism Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970718133944.00dcced4@mail.eden.com> At 09:23 AM 7/18/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >I think this issue has come up before, Doss, but I must say >there is something objectionable in your objections to people >calling Krishnamurti a "nigger." You say he was such a >wonderful well-known person, etc. and elsewhere make it clear >that you think Indians are *not* niggers, but seem to think other dark people >*are*. So it is not just wickedness but *inaccuracy* that bugs >you about that. This offends me. Not just because although >white myself I come from an interracial family >(African-American/white) but because Indians are so obviously >racist themselves. I wandered Bombay and Delhi in the company >of several "Westerners" one of them from Ghana originally and >very dark. He got many more looks of disgust and fear from Indians >than he would have in a Western society; said so himself. (He lived in >Canada.) > >Plus, there's color prejudice *within* Indian society. The >statement "If you're white, you're all right, if you're brown >stick around, if you're black get back" certainly fits the >Aryan vs. Dravidian bigotry of India. Which alas is totally >endorsed by HPB in the SD. > >Please clarify that you do *not* really mean "*We're* not >niggers, *they* are" because more than once you have made >statements that clearly imply such an attitude. > >KPJ > My response is simple: 1. Racism, bigotry and discrimination is there in every nook and corner of the world. 2. Use of the word "nigger" for *anyone* under any circumstances is totally unacceptable to me. I should have made this very very clear. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:43:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <970718124332_1048221813@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-18 04:46:59 EDT, Kym wrote: > >From ramadoss@eden.com response to Liesel's post: > > > >Dear Kym, > > > > > >They actually delete material from a post, like flaming and bickering, > and > > >maligning other Theosophists ... stupidities of that sort. Any objections? > > > Yes, I loathe censored material. I want to hear all of what a person > wants to say - whether I disagree or not. What someone considers worthy > of deleting may, to another person, be valuable insight. Exactly my feelings. I agree with you 10000%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMHO, no matter how careful and objective someone may be, they must still operate through their own personal filter, no matter how good their intentions. > What is of interest to one Theosophist is may not be of interest to > another. I hope you do find happiness on ts-l, but I would never be > fulfilled on a list where what I could read was chosen for me. My sentiments entirely. Good post, Kym! Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:43:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: the point in the circle Message-ID: <970718124330_-1778058123@emout16.mail.aol.com> I've noticed that quite a few folks here are quite knowledgeable about Egyptian hierglyphs. Could someone pleeeeeeease tell me the meaning of this one. It is a bird with its body facing right, however the head is turned *facing* the viewer. I've been wanting to know the meaning of this one for 20 years now, since the day it vividly appeared in my mind's eye straight out of the blue for no discernable reason. Thanks!!! Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:45:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: the point in the circle Message-ID: <970718124328_-358523787@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-18 03:43:09 EDT, Tim wrote: > Their multidimensionality doesn't make their flaws any less worthy of > condemnation. It's just that trying to reduce a complex individual to a > single failing is not particularly good biography. It would be like > saying that Blavatsky was a foul-tempered faker, pure and simple. She was > those things, but whe was also so much more. Racism as a failing is far more dangerous than being foul-tempered, IMHO. Racism has led to genocide, slavery, and a host of other horrors. OTOH, I have yet to hear of an individual with a foul temper as being the cause of anything of this magnitude. Being on the receiving end of someone's foul temper can cause just a moment's worth of pain or anger, whereas being on the receiving end of racism can cause a lifetime of pain and rage. Just my $.02. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:12:25 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <33CFCE29.7EB4@micron.net> Tom wrote: > I hope someone brings up the CWL affair on that list, if only > just to see what happens. If no one else does, I'll probably give it > a try. Oh, what bravery, what machismo! I dare you. I DOUBLE DOG DARE you! Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:14:26 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Software trouble - Doss Message-ID: <33CFCEA2.B26@micron.net> Doss wrote: > Kym: You can go and retrieve all the postings say since yesterday. Just send > e-mail to listserv@vnet.net and in the body of the msg write INDEX THEOS-L. > > After you get the list, request which ever file you need. Files are stored > by date. Thanks for this, too, Doss! I appreciate your help. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:01:11 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <199707182050.QAA29491@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: ts-l > Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 8:29 AM > > At 03:58 AM 7/18/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: > > >Joan said that both Nathan Greer and John Algeo are active in the TS-L > >list > > Glad to know that both of them are learning about maillist. What they are > likely to see is a very limited view. They need to get out and see and get > active in various other lists and newsgroups out there and much good can > come out. We need to reach out and get more non members interested in > Theosophy and related subjects so that the Theosophy Movement and TS can > grow. MHO. > I agree, Doss. Anyone starting a mailing list needs to go out and and see what works and what doesn't and what may also be appropriate for them. I think this is a time of exploration for ts-l. I unsubscribed simply due to lack of time, along with unsubscribing a personal mailing list with the author of Babylon-5. They were both interesting mailing lists, but my chaotic life right now seems to fit the chaotic and easy-going style of theos-l. As for T. Robertson's desire for no freedom - when can make a date to tie you up, Tom? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:49:20 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Do Masters want Chelas or Slaves? Message-ID: <199707182051.QAA29516@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Do Masters want Chelas or Slaves? > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 1:25 AM > > > A Master needs slaves. We are all slaves. Personality slaves of the soul and the quicker we realize it, the sweeter it becomes. > But I asked this before, do the Masters want spiritual brown nosers? Do they > want their astral asses kissed? Or do they admire the rebelious spirit, > because they once, if not eternally share it, despite alligence to THE > HEIRARCHY and ULTIMATE UNITIVE TRUTH? Someone once told me that if you tried to kiss the feet of one of the Masters, he'd probably kick you in the butt. I don't think adoration is on their agenda, but cooperation and hard work in the world. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:37:36 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: ts-l Message-ID: <199707190056.UAA29726@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Eliminating bullshit will increase the quality of the discussions. > Thank you, Tom. My sentiments exactly. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:41:45 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: KYm's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: <199707190100.VAA02344@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Kym, My reply stays the same. You just need something to revolt against don't you... never mind what. Grow up, why don't you! Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:37:19 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: The circle with the dot Message-ID: <33D0285C.5EC7@withoutwalls.com> > Gisele wrote: > > Thank-you for your comprehensive answer although it seems much more > complicated than I thought. I'm familiar with Steiner's terminology but > find it difficult to associate it with what you've described. Perhaps I > just need to dwell on it some more. That's the beauty of symbols. If you need simplicity from them, it's there. After all, it's just a circle with a dot in it. Isn't it neat that you can roll up and carry multiple levels of meaning in a cute little doodle? My initial response did speak to a rarified philosophy, but the truth is that that symbol is extremely multidimensional and applys meaningfully to numerous situations and interpretations. It's a wonder of both written symbols in general and their equivalents in thought that such charges of meaning can be both carried and conveyed by them. The fact that the deep psyche in all of us spontaneously produces them is amazing to me. I am less familiar with Steiner's understanding, but interested nonetheless. Would you care to explain?>. > Would the sun be an appropriate characterization or physical > symbol for what you've described? Would you expect this symbol to be > throughout a book said to be dealing with the afterlife? In theosophy the sun is said to be the body of a Logos. It has indeed been considered a symbol for God's presence in the world, as well as a symbol for the human spirit. I'd think it right at home in a book dealing with the afterlife. > I'm working on a theory that the Egyptian esoteric wisdom is the same as > the one from the East but misinterpreted and mistranslated somewhat. Again, in the teachings of theosophy, besides the basic tenet that "theo-sophia" is one, there is a reputed connection between the dispersal of esoteric wisdom into Egypt and parts of the East through Atlantis, it's migrations, colonies and those who survived it's destruction. You are walking in a field of diamonds, Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:33:46 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <340e20c0.28621362@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron wrote: >As for T. Robertson's desire for no freedom - when can make a date to tie >you up, Tom? Are you kidding? You don't need to worry about it being the right time to do something like that. PLEASE let me know when you're interested. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:33:49 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <340f217d.28809920@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >Tom wrote: >> I hope someone brings up the CWL affair on that list, if only >> just to see what happens. If no one else does, I'll probably give it >> a try. >Oh, what bravery, what machismo! I dare you. I DOUBLE DOG DARE you! I've ALREADY ASKED the moderator specifically about it. If she writes back and says that subject is off limits, or even if it is more subtly avoided, I'll immediately know that all that has been said (and probably much more) about the secret government of the TS is true, and I will be publicly shamed. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:51:55 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Egyptian/Eastern Wisdom Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970719025155.006b4584@elcocomp.com> Hi Mark! >Isn't it neat that you can roll up and carry multiple levels of meaning >in a cute little doodle? Yes, but I was hoping I wouldn't have to think too hard. :-) > >My initial response did speak to a rarified philosophy, but the truth is >that that symbol is extremely multidimensional and applys meaningfully >to numerous situations and interpretations. It's a wonder of both >written symbols in general and their equivalents in thought that such >charges of meaning can be both carried and conveyed by them. The fact >that the deep psyche in all of us spontaneously produces them is amazing >to me. I am less familiar with Steiner's understanding, but interested >nonetheless. Would you care to explain?>. hmmm... I have about 15 of Steiner's books (on a variety of topics) and what I found different about his approach, over Blavatsky's for instance, was that he totally understood, inside out, what he was talking about whether it was about the components of the ear, the beginning of our solar system, life after death, anything ... and he would explain, at times, every little detail - yet, all the while stimulating thought. So, I'm more familiar with his 'terminology' than some of the descriptions from Eastern literature... but I don't recall him ever mentioning this particular symbol. I know that Cayce mentioned it and I can't remember which book it was in. >> Would the sun be an appropriate characterization or physical >> symbol for what you've described? Would you expect this symbol to be >> throughout a book said to be dealing with the afterlife? > >In theosophy the sun is said to be the body of a Logos. It has indeed >been considered a symbol for God's presence in the world, as well as a >symbol for the human spirit. I'd think it right at home in a book >dealing with the afterlife. See ... the term 'logos' is unfamiliar to me, although I've seen it in gnostic texts. I don't recall seeing a definition. I've also wondered about the Egyptian word for 'god' - 'NTR'. It seems unrelated to the names of gods in other languages nearby... seems strange. > >> I'm working on a theory that the Egyptian esoteric wisdom is the same as >> the one from the East but misinterpreted and mistranslated somewhat. > >Again, in the teachings of theosophy, besides the basic tenet that >"theo-sophia" is one, there is a reputed connection between the >dispersal of esoteric wisdom into Egypt and parts of the East through >Atlantis, it's migrations, colonies and those who survived it's >destruction. This is the way Steiner described it (although I would love to find a similar description in Eastern literature): Before Atlantis sunk, a 'god' called 'Manu' gathered the more advanced individuals from all over the world to a secluded spot in Asia. He educated and initiated them and then released them to mix with the general population as Teachers of the Mysteries. India was the first location to receive its initiates. I would then think that the Egyptian and Indian wisdom should have common ground, yet I think Egyptian wisdom is 'garbled' because of translation difficulties. > >You are walking in a field of diamonds, The diamonds in Egypt are pretty rough. :-) Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 05:13:38 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Software trouble - Doss Message-ID: <341238f7.34820198@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Doss wrote: >Kym: You can go and retrieve all the postings say since yesterday. Just >send e-mail to listserv@vnet.net and in the body of the msg write INDEX >THEOS-L. > >After you get the list, request which ever file you need. Files are stored >by date. I did this. Now, how is a request made? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 03:34:59 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Hieroglyphic Owl Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970719033459.006ab698@elcocomp.com> Hi Lynn! >I've noticed that quite a few folks here are quite knowledgeable about >Egyptian hierglyphs. Could someone pleeeeeeease tell me the meaning of this >one. It is a bird with its body facing right, however the head is turned >*facing* the viewer. I've been wanting to know the meaning of this one for 20 >years now, since the day it vividly appeared in my mind's eye straight out of >the blue for no discernable reason. Thanks!!! I think you're talking about the 'owl' who's 'looking right at you'? It's usually used as a preposition and translated to mean 'in', however, based on your description, perhaps 'at' would be more appropriate. :-) I don't think that enough emphasis has been placed (by Egyptologists) on the symbolism of the Egyptian glyphs. You may or may not know that a good part of the words have been translated wholly on a word's final symbol or 'determinative'. Because of this, there are a host of words (with different symbles) that are all said to have the same meaning. Btw, I know someone who has an awesome collection of Egyptian 'djed' pillars which he's trying to determine the symbolism of. They are at: http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/library/libraryph.html Maybe someone here has ideas... It seems to represent the letter 'T' (implying that the concept meant to be conveyed began with a 'T'). It's sometimes found between a set of horns in the hieroglyphics (implying the top of the head?). Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:40:35 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Software trouble - Doss Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970719134035.00dcb5e0@mail.eden.com> At 05:50 AM 7/19/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>Kym: You can go and retrieve all the postings say since yesterday. Just >send e-mail to listserv@vnet.net and in the body of the msg write INDEX >THEOS-L. >> >>After you get the list, request which ever file you need. Files are stored >>by date. > >I did this. Now, how is a request made? > Very easy. Send a msg to LISTSERV@VNET.NET and in the body of the msg just write: get theos-l theos-l.970717.digest-1137 and nothing needs to be put in subject field. With the above msg, you will be able to retrieve the digest 1137 which contains the msgs of 7-17-1997. In the msg you can have as many get commands as you like. So multiple retrievals can be done in a single msg. .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:37:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: not at convention this time Message-ID: <970719133706_-1509802745@emout02.mail.aol.com> Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you folks, but this year Gerda and I won't be at convention. the money just got a little to tight this month, so the powers that be will be safe from my reviews--this year! Wait until next year though. I will have to double my venom to make up for this. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 09:40:41 -0800 From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: ???ism Message-ID: <33D0FC19.9A6@modzer0.uafdorms.alaska.edu> No isms? Oh poo. Now what am I going to do... --- Jaqi. (triaISM@modzer0.uafdorms.alaska.edu) I would like to take this opportunity to waste others' time by asking this, for I could probably find the answer by looking for a dictionary. What is the literal meaning of the suffix, "ism". IMO, Buddhism and racism seemingly have nothing in common, with regards to their literal definitions. Is "ism" simply "a defined set of values"? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:41:27 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: chelas and slaves Message-ID: <33D15EB2.558@withoutwalls.com> >> But I asked this before, do the Masters want spiritual brown nosers? Do they >> want their astral asses kissed? Or do they admire the rebelious spirit, >> because they once, if not eternally share it, despite alligence to THE >> HEIRARCHY and ULTIMATE UNITIVE TRUTH? > Someone once told me that if you tried to kiss the feet of one of the > Masters, he'd probably kick you in the butt. I don't think adoration is on > their agenda, but cooperation and hard work in the world. "independant action vis-a-vis hierarchy" Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 18:47:30 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: not at convention this time Message-ID: <199707192347.TAA04067@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: not at convention this time > Date: Saturday, July 19, 1997 12:38 PM > > Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you folks, but this year Gerda and I won't be > at convention. the money just got a little to tight this month, so the > powers that be will be safe from my reviews--this year! > > Wait until next year though. I will have to double my venom to make up for > this. > > Chuck the Heretic Gee, Chuck, I'm not there either. Things must be pretty dull at Olcott. It would have been wild ride there from Chicago for me last night. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:19:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: In message <199707190100.VAA02344@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >Dear Kym, > >My reply stays the same. You just need something to revolt against don't >you... never mind what. Grow up, why don't you! > >Liesel > Would the above message get posted to ts-l for its subscribers to read? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:44:56 -0400 From: Annette Rivington Subject: Still connected Message-ID: <33D26AB7.733782B1@globalserve.net> Just to say quickly that I'm doing some research before further comment. I've read the last 20 or so TheosL Digests and have skimmed the Secret Doctrine, 4 Pamphlets of Articles, Introductory Study Course parts 1 and 2 and am half way through T de Ch. I'm in research, questioning and listening mode (again). I hope you people do not mind me reading your conversations. I find a lot of wisdom, homour and life-force type stuff in your communications and "watching" you debate the issues is helping me to understand more about life. I am not a member of any Theosophical Society and had to find out about it before I could say any more than before. After all I did attack your organization, or at least the affects of it that I experienced through the actions of one person. I predict that I am going to enter another period of revaluation of all that I thought I knew so well! I am looking forward to it this time. Partly because I don't have to "throw the baby out with the bath water", and because I'm learning how to be kind to myself in the process. I now think that all my life I have been trying to make things "black or white", to make it easy for me, so I could say to myself "there, that explains that, now let's just get on and do it". It seems to me now that part of a philosophy of life like that is the result of perceived competition for resources ( I'm just as good as and as important as you and deserve the same as you) and of fear of the unknown (I'm a child all alone in a complex world that I can't possibly understand all about so I must make myself the centre of that world in order to be safe). The events of the past few weeks and your comments have really made an impact. I see others grappling with the issues too. Seeking a balance between everyday physical life and infinity and needing to feel comfortable in both. I hope that this thought will help free me finally from the confines of "time" and from "beating myself up" when I constantly appear to fail. In other words, now is definitely the time for me to "put my money where my mouth has been" and to start walking the talk. Peter is talking about leaving the TTS? He will not tell me why. I do not believe it was my actions lately that caused that. At least I hope not! He is mostly packed ready to leave, but I am going to call his bluff this time and encourage him to do whatever he feels is right for him. His comment was that I should join the Society because I think naturally like its basic philosophy. My comment, as you know, is that anyone seeking spirituality and the "truth" in conjunction with a basic respect for all life, will "naturally" think and act within the tenets of any philosophy that supports these things. In my readings, I was surprised to read about what happened to HPB, but not surprised at all by all the organizational disappointments. It has been obvious to me for a long time, and much of the basis of my belief in "energy", that certain people who are totally connected to something greater than normal express an energy and passion that manifests and causes change. When those people leave, their energy goes with them, and those left to carry on can only do what they manifest according to their stage along the path to the "truth". This energy and passion can be enjoyed by all associated with the energy giver, but it does not "rub off" on others and it can only be replaced by others who have reached the same stage of development. Hence, my self-deduced "religion" that: a) everyone has to reach this highly developed stage of spirituality by "coming to it" themselves rather than following some leader or doctrine, and this is the goal of our lives here, and b) until everyone reaches this level, and can maintain it within themselves without leadership or "blind faith" in some doctrine, the "truth" will not be achieved on this earth. What I have yet to figure out is how and whether the actions and writings of any who went before are relevant to this process, other than evidence of the process and interesting historical stuff, and whether they may, infact, be a "temptation" for us to stop our individual process and say that someone else found the "truth" and all we have to do is to follow it. Have to digest the concept of Masters and Atlantis and all the other "wierd" stuff. Until I reach the next level of understanding, I remain constant in my current thought that every person is born in and with the truth, with all the capabilities of understanding everything and that "life" is a process of rediscovery and acceptance. Must get back to work. Will keep listening and I wish you all a good Summer and take care of yourselves. Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:36:01 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: <199707201535.LAA15720@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l > Date: Saturday, July 19, 1997 10:16 PM > > In message <199707190100.VAA02344@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. > deutsch" writes > >Dear Kym, > > > >My reply stays the same. You just need something to revolt against don't > >you... never mind what. Grow up, why don't you! > > > >Liesel > > > Would the above message get posted to ts-l for its subscribers to read? > > Alan It was my observation that ts-l was done in a digest format, while theos-l is more conversational. Almost like lot a of telephones hooked up together. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:58:41 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970720155841.00d4f160@mail.eden.com> At 11:35 AM 7/20/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: Dr. A.M.Bain >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l >> Date: Saturday, July 19, 1997 10:16 PM >> >> In message <199707190100.VAA02344@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. >> deutsch" writes >> >Dear Kym, >> > >> >My reply stays the same. You just need something to revolt against don't >> >you... never mind what. Grow up, why don't you! >> > >> >Liesel >> > >> Would the above message get posted to ts-l for its subscribers to read? >> >> Alan > >It was my observation that ts-l was done in a digest format, while >theos-l is more conversational. Almost like lot a of telephones hooked >up together. > >A. Safron Name of the game in Internet is speed. It appears that the digest is being released on a monthly basis like a monthly print magazine. So you wait for a month to see next set of msgs. This is nothing but a reflection, IMHO, of the paper based magazine mentality. Those of us who grew up in computer/fax/telephone based culture of speed and used to fast paced communication may not like the delay. But most (especially in the TS/TSA hierarchy) are accostumed to slow paper based snail speed all their life time (may be 90% of the total life span) and it is very difficult to many of them switch gears and get on the fast lane. Probably if you believe in manvantaras, slow pace does not at all matter. We have all the time in the world to deal with important and critical issues and we can pick up in the next incarnation. YMDMV .................MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:02:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Hieroglyphic Owl Message-ID: <970720115727_75736227@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-20 04:07:17 EDT, you write: > I think you're talking about the 'owl' who's 'looking right at you'? It's > usually used as a preposition and translated to mean 'in', however, based > on your description, perhaps 'at' would be more appropriate. :-) Hi Gisele, For over 20 years, I've been wondering about the Egyptian hierglyph for a preposition? Geeeesh!!!! > > I don't think that enough emphasis has been placed (by Egyptologists) on > the symbolism of the Egyptian glyphs. You may or may not know that a good > part of the words have been translated wholly on a word's final symbol or > 'determinative'. Because of this, there are a host of words (with > different symbles) that are all said to have the same meaning. I didn't know that and appreciate the information! I agree with you, if only because hierglyphs would represent an extraordinarily cumbersome form of writing if the some of the glyphs represented little more than determinatives. It simply doesn't jive with what I intuit (however badly informed my intuition is). Take the owl, for example. Surely it means more than "in" or "at". (I'm not basing this on the fact of my personal experience but the potential potency of the symbol.) It's sort of ironic, BTW, that this discussion here came up while I'm in the midst of doing charcoal drawings (requested by my family) of Egyptian motifs (Tut's funeral mask, various bas-reliefs, etc.) and several cable TV stations had shows about the ancient Egyptians in the past two weeks. Maybe Jung's Law of Synchronicity holds true after all. ;-D > > Btw, I know someone who has an awesome collection of Egyptian 'djed' > pillars which he's trying to determine the symbolism of. They are at: > > http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/library/libraryph.html Many, many thanks! I will definitely visit the site. I've been meaning to surf the Web anyway in search of more Egyptian "fodder" for my current creative mode and it would be great to pick up on some more Egyptology along the way. The ancient Egyptians have always fascinated me, for a number of reasons, anyway. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:19:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: not at convention this time Message-ID: <970720131907_-1710906166@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-19 19:49:27 EDT, you write: >Gee, Chuck, I'm not there either. Things must be pretty dull at >Olcott. It would have been wild ride there from Chicago for me >last night. Well, we're going to see Elwood today and yes, it would have been wild with the tornadoes hitting wheaton. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:53:57 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1139 Message-ID: <970720135352_1280046449@emout01.mail.aol.com> I'd like to make a brief comment about some of the material contained in Digest 1139. First off, as some of you have accurately stated, the Internet is perhaps the last bastion of relatively free literary expression. I don't often make contributions to THEOS-L but, when I do, they invariably get printed ... and they don't get censored to avoid offending some (I won't mention any names) who subscribe to this list. Yes, this firm policy has obviously driven some people away and I am certain that in the future it may well drive some others away. On the other hand, start censoring the material and you will drive ME away. As I've already said, I don't contribute very often but I do read virtually every post. Some of them (I simply HAVE to resist the temptation to mention names) cause me to cringe in embarrassment (as in, "wow, I'm glad I don't talk that way"). Yet I am quite willing to pay the price of having to wade through some of that stuff ... in order to maintain the freedom of literary expression that exists on THEOS-L and, sadly, does not exist in very many other places. For example, some time ago I sent a "letter to the editors" piece to The Plain Truth magazine disagreeing with a previous post by someone saying "Jesus Christ was not illegitimate." I contended that, given the doctrine of the Virgin Birth, he would have to be --- after taking into account the assertions that Mary was his mother and The Holy Spirit (who was NOT married to Mary) was his father. For that is precisely what "illegitimate" means: born of unwed parents. As you can easily guess, that was one "letter to the editor" that did NOT get published by Plain Truth magazine. But look, it gets published HERE! Now that's freedom of literary expression, folks. It is very rare. Treasure it. Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:34:27 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1139 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970720193427.00e4bc78@mail.eden.com> At 01:55 PM 7/20/97 -0400, DSArthur@aol.com wrote: > I'd like to make a brief comment about some of the material contained in >Digest 1139. First off, as some of you have accurately stated, the Internet >is perhaps the last bastion of relatively free literary expression. I don't >often make contributions to THEOS-L but, when I do, they invariably get >printed ... and they don't get censored to avoid offending some (I won't >mention any names) who subscribe to this list. Yes, this firm policy has >obviously driven some people away and I am certain that in the future it may >well drive some others away. On the other hand, start censoring the material >and you will drive ME away. As I've already said, I don't contribute very >often but I do read virtually every post. Some of them (I simply HAVE to >resist the temptation to mention names) cause me to cringe in embarrassment >(as in, "wow, I'm glad I don't talk that way"). Yet I am quite willing to >pay the price of having to wade through some of that stuff ... in order to >maintain the freedom of literary expression that exists on THEOS-L and, >sadly, does not exist in very many other places. For example, some time ago >I sent a "letter to the editors" piece to The Plain Truth magazine >disagreeing with a previous post by someone saying "Jesus Christ was not >illegitimate." I contended that, given the doctrine of the Virgin Birth, he >would have to be --- after taking into account the assertions that Mary was >his mother and The Holy Spirit (who was NOT married to Mary) was his father. > For that is precisely what "illegitimate" means: born of unwed parents. As >you can easily guess, that was one "letter to the editor" that did NOT get >published by Plain Truth magazine. But look, it gets published HERE! Now >that's freedom of literary expression, folks. It is very rare. Treasure it. > > I am very glad to see your comment. The new medium of Internet is so unique and not amenable to control/sensorship, and to many of us who have grown up in a controlled/censored environment, it may be very uncomfortable. On the other hand, when all of us are students trying to discover for ourselves what Truth and Reality are, and where individual grows and flower, any kind of constraint or control or censor is limiting. What we are now seeing is just discussion of ideas and other information. When every man, woman and child is connected to Internet, like what is planned in the UK, Internet is going to shake many of the organizations to their roots, nothing like what we have seen so far. In the present mode of communication using the print media (controlled by the organization leadership) -- generally the official magazine or periodical -- the leadership keeps the followers minimally informed of only those that look good on them and hide those that do not. Many times when difficult issues come up, these also tend to be used to mislead or even misrepresent facts to the membership or followers. With Internet of the future when everyone is wired, this is going to become next to impossible thus putting a lot of pressure on the leadership. I hope we all live to see the changes coming down the pike and the future is going to be very exciting such as nothing we have seen so far. My 2 cents worth. YMDMV. ............MKRamadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:02:21 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: ???ism Message-ID: <33D2B51D.6C49@micron.net> Jaqi wrote: > Oh poo. Indeed. > I would like to take this opportunity to waste others' time by asking > this, for I could probably find the answer by looking for a dictionary. > What is the literal meaning of the suffix, "ism". IMO, Buddhism and > racism seemingly have nothing in common, with regards to their literal > definitions. Is "ism" simply "a defined set of values"? Well, since I did have time to waste, I looked up "ism." However, the definition of "ism" will probably ADD to the confusion of what an "ism" is. I love words like that. "ism:" A noun-forming suffix meaning - a) the act, practice, or result of, as in terrorism; b) the condition of being, as in barbarism [nothing personal, Tom] and pauperism; c) action, conduct, or qualities characteristic of, as in scoundrelism [nothing personal, Bart], patriotism, Americanism; d) the doctrine, theory, or principle of, as in atomism, socialism [nothing personal, Kym]; e) devotion to, as in nationalism [nothing personal, Patrick]; f) an instance, example or peculiarity of, as in Gallicism, witticism [nothing personal, Alan]; g) an abnormal condition caused by, as in alcoholism. also - a doctrine, system, theory, etc. whose name ends in -ism; generally used contemptuously; as, "away with your isms and ologies." Now, see how much one can learn on theos? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:06:47 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Primacy of Existence? Message-ID: <33f4a27e.39206783@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> One of the principal doctrines of both Objectivism and Marxism, that their conclusions about the ideal political situation are at polar opposites notwithstanding, is the primacy of existence - that before there can be consciousness, there must be something of which to be conscious. HPB disagreed with this. She believed that spirit and matter are on equal terms, that neither of them are primary, and that nothing can exist without both being present. Since I generally agree with what HPB wrote, and since it makes more sense to me intuitively, I would like to believe her. But is there a reason to believe, say, that rocks are conscious, but by believing in such an authority as her? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:39:01 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: re: Egyptian and Eastern wisdom Message-ID: <33D2CBBE.6FD8@withoutwalls.com> > Gisele wrote: > See ... the term 'logos' is unfamiliar to me, although I've seen it in > gnostic texts. I don't recall seeing a definition. I know there is a debate right now on the various theosophy lists about definitions and encyclopedias, but a good place to start studying terms might be G. de Purucker's "Occult Glossary" (Theosophical University Press, Pasadena, CA). (I'll warn you right up front though, it will probably make you think hard!) ;-) For example, in it you"ll find: Logos.(Greek) In old Greek philosophy the word Logos was used in many ways, of which the Christians often sadly misunderstood the profoundly mystical meaning. Logos is a word having several applications in the Esoteric Philosophy, for there are different kinds or grades of logoi, some of them of divine, some of them of spiritual, character; some of them having a cosmic range, and other ranges much more restricted. In fact, every individual entity, no matter what its evolutionary grade on the ladder of life, has its own individual Logos. The divine-spiritual entity behind the sun is the Solar Logos of our solar system. Small or great as every solar system may be, each has its own Logos, the source or fountainhead of almost innumerable logoi of less degree in that system. Every man has his own spiritual logos; every atom has its own logos; every atom likewise has its own Paramatman and Mulaprakriti, for every entity everywhere has its own highest. These things and the words which express them are obviously relative. One meaning of the Greek Logos is "word" - a phrase or symbol taken from the Ancient Mysteries meaning the "Lost Word," the "lost" logos of man's heart and brain. The Logos of our own planetary chain, so far as this Fourth Round is concerned, is the Wonderous Being or Silent Watcher (q.v.). The term, therefore, is relative and not an absolute one, and has many applications. > This is the way Steiner described it (although I would love to find a > similar description in Eastern literature): Before Atlantis sank, a 'god' > called 'Manu' gathered the more advanced individuals from all over the > world to a secluded spot in Asia. He educated and initiated them and then > released them to mix with the general population as Teachers of the > Mysteries. India was the first location to receive its initiates. This story, I believe, is refering to the origins of the fifth root race (Aryan) under Vaivasvata Manu. A search for his name in traditional Hindu scriptures would probably shed some mythological light, but undoubtedly not with a clear theosophical perspective. While there is eventually much reputed interaction (physical, cultural and religious) between these people(s), Egypt and the "East" (as well as other parts of the world), there would have already been considerable influx of both population and culture into these areas from much older Atlantean strains. For example, according to theosophy, the first two "Divine Dynasties" of Egypt were supposedly highly successful Atlan civilizations (complete with Initiate rulers). Laying the groundwork in that region for a religion and culture of Adept wisdom. Likewise in the "East", having both the Turanian and Mongolian sub-races of the Atlantean race spread abroad in those areas as well as the direct influence of Shamballah in Central Asia. Whatever one may think about CWL and Annie Besant as reliable theosophic information sources, (If you really want to hurt your head) I would recommend A.E. Powell's compilation "The Solar System" (ISBN 7229-5225-2) for an interesting and readable account of supposed early root race history. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 20:03:11 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Grant me the serenity Message-ID: <33D2C35F.1F4C@micron.net> Tom Robertson, in a private memorandum, sent me the following quotation from a post (1105) I had sent to theos. > "The hatred for the poor, the disadvantaged, the non-Theosophists, > etc. . .that I have heard expressed lately on this list doesn't bring > to mind manners as my first priority. I take it personal when I hear > racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia, and other such views spewed > in rabid abundance." Well, well - seems I did use the word "hatred." Hmmm. So, not only do we never really know anyone else, we rarely seem to even know ourselves. I apologize for using the word "hatred" - to use that word against someone, I think, places them under a shadow of "evil" and, consequently, denies the "divinity" that is "within" each of us. And thank you, Tom, for drawing my attention to my error. However, there are still many incarnations to go. . . ;-/ Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:42:30 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Re: Still connected Message-ID: <199707210001.UAA12713@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Anette, I'm too bushed just now to answer your letter at length, and I think it warrants careful answering. I want to tell you that I've been studying Theosophy since 1963, even though I only joined in 1978. So I know quite a good deal, of the Adyar type Theosophy, and will probably be able to answer at least partly any question you might have. In this respect, I'm glad you're enjoying what's being written on Theos-l. I just signed off from there. I happen to be a Leadbeater devotee, and people keep on popping up on theos-l, who inisist on flaming Leadbeater. To me, he was a Saint, and I have talked to some of his pupils who said the same thing, and I don't in the least take stock of all the slanderous remarks that keep on cropping up. I know certain people swear up & down that they're true. I know as a fact that they're not, but it's not something I can prove. I've tried that, and very conclusively, but the slanderers won't even consider what I say. So I finally just signed off. I'll confine myself to ts-l, which is, Leadbeater friendly. That's a prejudice I have. however, I was the one who kept on saying on theos-l that we should open up the discussion to all sorts of Theosophists. I think that would be nice, sure would be different, and more productive than bickering. But they flame Alice Baley devotees as well. I don't think Alice Bailey's teachings are as profound as Leasdbeater's and Besant's and the miriad of writers who've followed them during the past 120 years, but I wouldn't think of flaming Bailey's writings or devotees. They're very devoted, and to rip into that would only cause hurtful situations. I've been taught to be positive as much as I can, because the subconscious doesn't differentiate between the nasty things you say about yourself and/or somebody else. The subconscious just reacts to something nasty or to something pleasant. Nasty statements hurt me as much as the people I think I'm directing them to, so I try to refrain. That's my kind of esoteric knowledge. Accentuate the positive. The very fundamental thing of Theosophy is that you need to look at what we have to offer, and then make up your own mind as to whatever has vibes similar to your own, which you'd feel good about accepting. We say, at least the very dyed in the wool Theosophists do, that reading about Theosophy isn't enough, you need to digest what you read and be able to use it. Learning formulas by heart isn't where it's at. Also, we do not ever ask that you accept everything we present. To be a Theosophist the only thing you must believe in is humanity, still expressed by Theosophists as "The Brotherhood of Man", because we have a backward International President. That for starters. More lateron. Best wishes, happy search, Liesel ......................................................................... >Just to say quickly that I'm doing some research before further comment. > >I've read the last 20 or so TheosL Digests and have skimmed the Secret >Doctrine, 4 Pamphlets of Articles, Introductory Study Course parts 1 and >2 and am half way through T de Ch. I'm in research, questioning and >listening mode (again). I hope you people do not mind me reading your >conversations. I find a lot of wisdom, homour and life-force type stuff >in your communications and "watching" you debate the issues is helping >me to understand more about life. >I am not a member of any Theosophical Society and had to find out about >it before I could say any more than before. After all I did attack your >organization, or at least the affects of it that I experienced through >the actions of one person. I predict that I am going to enter another >period of revaluation of all that I thought I knew so well! I am >looking forward to it this time. Partly because I don't have to "throw >the baby out with the bath water", and because I'm learning how to be >kind to myself in the process. I now think that all my life I have been >trying to make things "black or white", to make it easy for me, so I >could say to myself "there, that explains that, now let's just get on >and do it". It seems to me now that part of a philosophy of life like >that is the result of perceived competition for resources ( I'm just as >good as and as important as you and deserve the same as you) and of fear >of the unknown (I'm a child all alone in a complex world that I can't >possibly understand all about so I must make myself the centre of that >world in order to be safe). The events of the past few weeks and your >comments have really made an impact. I see others grappling with the >issues too. Seeking a balance between everyday physical life and >infinity and needing to feel comfortable in both. >I hope that this thought will help free me finally from the confines of >"time" and from "beating myself up" when I constantly appear to fail. >In other words, now is definitely the time for me to "put my money where >my mouth has been" and to start walking the talk. > >Peter is talking about leaving the TTS? He will not tell me why. I do >not believe it was my actions lately that caused that. At least I hope >not! He is mostly packed ready to leave, but I am going to call his >bluff this time and encourage him to do whatever he feels is right for >him. His comment was that I should join the Society because I think >naturally like its basic philosophy. My comment, as you know, is that >anyone seeking spirituality and the "truth" in conjunction with a basic >respect for all life, will "naturally" think and act within the tenets >of any philosophy that supports these things. In my readings, I was >surprised to read about what happened to HPB, but not surprised at all >by all the organizational disappointments. It has been obvious to me >for a long time, and much of the basis of my belief in "energy", that >certain people who are totally connected to something greater than >normal express an energy and passion that manifests and causes change. >When those people leave, their energy goes with them, and those left to >carry on can only do what they manifest according to their stage along >the path to the "truth". This energy and passion can be enjoyed by all >associated with the energy giver, but it does not "rub off" on others >and it can only be replaced by others who have reached the same stage of >development. Hence, my self-deduced "religion" that: >a) everyone has to reach this highly developed stage of spirituality by >"coming to it" themselves rather than following some leader or doctrine, >and this is the goal of our lives here, and >b) until everyone reaches this level, and can maintain it within >themselves without leadership or "blind faith" in some doctrine, the >"truth" will not be achieved on this earth. > >What I have yet to figure out is how and whether the actions and >writings of any who went before are relevant to this process, other than >evidence of the process and interesting historical stuff, and whether >they may, infact, be a "temptation" for us to stop our individual >process and say that someone else found the "truth" and all we have to >do is to follow it. Have to digest the concept of Masters and Atlantis >and all the other "wierd" stuff. Until I reach the next level of >understanding, I remain constant in my current thought that every person >is born in and with the truth, with all the capabilities of >understanding everything and that "life" is a process of rediscovery and >acceptance. >Must get back to work. Will keep listening and I wish you all a good >Summer and take care of yourselves. >Annette. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:55:45 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Hieroglphics Message-ID: <199707210259.WAA16421@NetGSI.com> >I don't think that enough emphasis has been placed (by Egyptologists) on >the symbolism of the Egyptian glyphs. You may or may not know that a good >part of the words have been translated wholly on a word's final symbol or >'determinative'. Because of this, there are a host of words (with >different symbles) that are all said to have the same meaning. Ahhhemm! It so happens that I did my own translation of the Book of the Dead called Coming Into The Light, which the publisher just retitled Egyptian Magick. As such, I'm afraid that I have an opinion or two on Egyptologists. Go into any bookstore and see how many translations of the Gita you can find. Then look at the Tao te Ching. There are hundreds. Then look at the Book of the Dead. There are two, and Budge's is no longer considered workable even by Egyptologists. Why? Because of hierarchies. When the chief muckty-muk does a translation, then nobody else had better one-up him. And no one has. I'm not an Egyptologist, so my translations don't count in acedemia. Anyway, hieroglyphics can be translated in a wide variety of ways. There is no punctuation, for example. Ideographs can vary with the context, etc. The owl is the letter m, and can actually mean any preposition at all, including opposites. So, we can translate that someone is coming in or going out depending on our preference, and on the overall context, etc. Translating is a lot of fun, but you would never know it based on the few translations available. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 03:08:48 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Free Will Message-ID: <3409cc94.49981310@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> If there is no such thing as free will and all behavior is completely determined, nothing is relevant, anyway. Purely pragmatically, on the chance that there might be free will and that people might be responsible, even if only somewhat, for what they do, then it is a free-roll to believe so. Being wrong about the existence of free will carries no penalty. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:00:02 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Egyptian/Eastern Wisdom Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970721020002.007b3e60@elcocomp.com> Hi Mark! >One meaning of the Greek Logos is "word" - a phrase or symbol taken from >the Ancient Mysteries meaning the "Lost Word," the "lost" logos of man's >heart and brain. The Logos of our own planetary chain, so far as this >Fourth Round is concerned, is the Wonderous Being or Silent Watcher >(q.v.). Ok. Is this like the hierarchy? I've read about the 'Christ' on the sun and 'Osiris' on the moon (which doesn't fit in well with Hancock's theories.) >For example, according to theosophy, the first two "Divine Dynasties" of >Egypt were supposedly highly successful Atlan civilizations (complete >with Initiate rulers). Laying the groundwork in that region for a >religion and culture of Adept wisdom. Likewise in the "East", having >both the Turanian and Mongolian sub-races of the Atlantean race spread >abroad in those areas as well as the direct influence of Shamballah in >Central Asia. Who's descriptions of Atlantis have you studied? I've read Steiner's, Cayce's and Phylos the Thibetan's.... > >Whatever one may think about CWL and Annie Besant as reliable theosophic >information sources, (If you really want to hurt your head) I think you liked that statement. :-) I would >recommend A.E. Powell's compilation "The Solar System" (ISBN >7229-5225-2) for an interesting and readable account of supposed early >root race history. I've already read Steiner's account of this and I did not have to hurt my head :-), however I did have to make some deep readjustments. Was Powell clairvoyant? Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 03:16:50 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Hieroglyphic Owl Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970721031650.007b3e60@elcocomp.com> Hi Lynn! >For over 20 years, I've been wondering about the Egyptian hierglyph for a >preposition? Geeeesh!!!! I didn't know how else to put it; because every way it would have sounded like a big let down. :-) But, I still feel that there is much work to be done before anyone can read the older hieroglyphics and have confidence in the information contained in them.. so, you never know! Maybe some deeper meaning will be found. >Take the owl, for example. Surely it means more than "in" or "at". (I'm not basing >this on the fact of my personal experience but the potential potency of the symbol.) Ok, well since you're unhappy with the traditional Egyptological response, here's another angle which is purely speculation on my part. The 'game board' glyph is just about always shown with a wavy line under it and together they form a syllable 'Men' which typically means 'understanding' or represents the 'mental' in other languages like 'mens' = 'mind/understanding (Lat), ahmen='he who understands' (Nahuatl), manabu=to learn (Jap), mana = to count (Heb). Seems to me that the game board implies 'thought' and so this would 'fit' in my opinion (although Egyptologists have not usually translated this syllable in this manner). Then the 'owl' is also an 'M' and it is found in other words also. I was told that it was usually colored 'yellow'; the color of 'intelligence' in an aura. And of course we always say 'wise as an owl'! So, if I personally wanted to dig deeper, I'd look in that direction.... One more thing, it was often substituted with a 'headless bird' which perhaps could mean 'non-useage of reason' (?) So, in those respects, you may be right.... but it sure is a common symbol. At your suggestion, I will keep my eyes peeled on this 'preposition'. :-) >It's sort of ironic, BTW, that >this discussion here came up while I'm in the midst of doing charcoal >drawings (requested by my family) of Egyptian motifs (Tut's funeral mask, >various bas-reliefs, etc.) and several cable TV stations had shows about the >ancient Egyptians in the past two weeks. Maybe Jung's Law of Synchronicity >holds true after all. ;-D I'm fascinated by coincidences. >> >> Btw, I know someone who has an awesome collection of Egyptian 'djed' >> pillars which he's trying to determine the symbolism of. They are at: >> >> http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/library/libraryph.html > >Many, many thanks! I will definitely visit the site. I've been meaning to >surf the Web anyway in search of more Egyptian "fodder" for my current >creative mode and it would be great to pick up on some more Egyptology along >the way. The ancient Egyptians have always fascinated me, for a number of >reasons, anyway. I hope you reserve a few non-artistic thoughts to help interpret this symbol. There is one really eerie picture of a 'djed pillar' which has 'hands' holding up a large clear, elongated globe that has a slitheriing snake in it which kind of reminds me of the 'innards' of a light bulb. However, a similar hieroglyphic symbol seems to be associated with the word 'within', with the word 'Amen', with 'horns' (or the forehead), with the word 'aten' (which is sometimes has a determinative which is a 'face' or portion of a 'face'), and there may even be a far-fetched connection with 'Amen' and crystals. What would your perceptive vision tell you about that jumble? Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:10:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: <970721141025_784927769@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-20 22:10:23 EDT, Doss wrote about the slow pace of ts-l: > Probably if you believe in manvantaras, slow pace does not at all matter. We > have all the time in the world to deal with important and critical issues > and we can pick up in the next incarnation. ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This had me on the floor in tears! I can see it now, an e-letter put out by the Solar Hierarchy called, COSMOS-L, issued once every manvantara. (However, special issues may come out every few rounds or yugas.) Thanks, Doss, for giving me such a good laugh first thing in the morning!! Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:11:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Primacy of Existence? Message-ID: <970721141032_-1207703783@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-20 22:10:23 EDT, Tom wrote: > One of the principal doctrines of both Objectivism and Marxism, that > their conclusions about the ideal political situation are at polar > opposites notwithstanding, is the primacy of existence - that before > there can be consciousness, there must be something of which to be > conscious. HPB disagreed with this. She believed that spirit and > matter are on equal terms, that neither of them are primary, and that > nothing can exist without both being present. Since I generally agree > with what HPB wrote, and since it makes more sense to me intuitively, > I would like to believe her. But is there a reason to believe, say, > that rocks are conscious, but by believing in such an authority as > her? Given some of the problems the Rover has had on Mars, I would say so. ;-D More seriously, though, the unusual effects that could be obtained with crystals (not New Age stuff, but more like the piezoelectric effect or how they grow) suggests a weird sort of intelligence using a very wiiiiiiiiiide definition of it, IMHO. OTOH, someone could easily respond that it's simply due to the laws of physics, though I've never seen an explanation for *why* the piezoelectric effect exists. (In case anyone is wondering, the piezoelectric effect is that by applying pressure to a crystal, slightly changing its shape, the crystal will emit an electrical voltage. Conversely, if you apply a voltage to a crystal, it will slightly change shape and resonate at a frequency determined by its size and shape. At least, I think I got it right in my faulty memory.) Lynn Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:00:31 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1139 Message-ID: In message <970720135352_1280046449@emout01.mail.aol.com>, DSArthur@aol.com writes >I contended that, given the doctrine of the Virgin Birth, he >would have to be --- after taking into account the assertions that Mary was >his mother and The Holy Spirit (who was NOT married to Mary) was his father. > For that is precisely what "illegitimate" means: born of unwed parents. As >you can easily guess, that was one "letter to the editor" that did NOT get >published by Plain Truth magazine. But look, it gets published HERE! Now >that's freedom of literary expression, folks. It is very rare. Treasure it. I love it! I could go into the question seriously, but I suspect you were having some fun at the expense of "Plain Truth" ? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:16:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970720155841.00d4f160@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes (in part) >Probably if you believe in manvantaras, slow pace does not at all matter. We >have all the time in the world to deal with important and critical issues >and we can pick up in the next incarnation. What a wonderful justification for doing nothing at all! Racism, sexism, injustice, hatred, bigotry - what do they matter on so vast a scale? Let us leave them for a life or two, or maybe many lives or more. Huh! [For those who fathom me little, I am being sarcastic, but I am NOT, repeat, NOT, attacking Doss!] Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:00:05 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Free Will Message-ID: In message <3409cc94.49981310@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>, Tom Robertson writes >If there is no such thing as free will and all behavior is completely >determined, nothing is relevant, anyway. Purely pragmatically, on the >chance that there might be free will and that people might be >responsible, even if only somewhat, for what they do, then it is a >free-roll to believe so. Being wrong about the existence of free will >carries no penalty. Owing to the karma inherited from past lives I am predestined not to believe in reincarnation but to believe in free will. Sad, isn't it. Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:40:05 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970722014005.00e88358@mail.eden.com> At 02:11 PM 7/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-07-20 22:10:23 EDT, Doss wrote about the slow pace of >ts-l: > >> Probably if you believe in manvantaras, slow pace does not at all matter. >We >> have all the time in the world to deal with important and critical issues >> and we can pick up in the next incarnation. > >ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This had me on the floor in tears! I can see it now, an >e-letter put out by the Solar Hierarchy called, COSMOS-L, issued once every >manvantara. (However, special issues may come out every few rounds or yugas.) >Thanks, Doss, for giving me such a good laugh first thing in the morning!! > >Lynn > Thanks. Waiting for the next issue of COSMOS-L from LOGOS SERVER. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:51:48 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970722015148.00ee301c@mail.eden.com> At 08:18 PM 7/21/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970720155841.00d4f160@mail.eden.com>, >ramadoss@eden.com writes (in part) > >>Probably if you believe in manvantaras, slow pace does not at all matter. We >>have all the time in the world to deal with important and critical issues >>and we can pick up in the next incarnation. > >What a wonderful justification for doing nothing at all! > >Racism, sexism, injustice, hatred, bigotry - what do they matter on so >vast a scale? Let us leave them for a life or two, or maybe many lives >or more. > >Huh! [For those who fathom me little, I am being sarcastic, but I am >NOT, repeat, NOT, attacking Doss!] > >Alan Don't worry Alan! I have put on the virtual rhino skin and anything is going to be difficult to penetrate -- except perhaps some of the armor piercing special shells! Speed is the essence of action. The adepts have solved the problems of instant communication and instant transportation. Internet is coming close to instant communication. Not to use it as such is "un pardonable", like driving a car at 5 MPH. Clinging to the old ways of horse carriage like communication defeats the purpose and surely the world is going to overtake us in no time before we know it. Most of us have not much time left, so let us move and move as fast as we can. Manvantaras can wait for us! ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:00:40 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: +.- Message-ID: <33D43E77.A7F@withoutwalls.com> > When thus you have overcome the force of the evil tendencies then you > will have to abandon even the good ones. You will then experience > the supreme truth ... Neither this nor that. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:16:21 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Kym's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: <33D44222.137@withoutwalls.com> > I can see it now, an e-letter put out by the Solar Hierarchy called, > COSMOS-L, issued once every manvantara. (However, special issues may > come out every few rounds or yugas.) It may be a matter of scale, but Don't they kinda/sorta supposedly do that already with their Root Manus and Avatars? Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:16:37 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Kym's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: <33D44232.6E7@withoutwalls.com> > I can see it now, an e-letter put out by the Solar Hierarchy called, > COSMOS-L, issued once every manvantara. (However, special issues may > come out every few rounds or yugas.) It may be a matter of scale, but Don't they kinda/sorta supposedly do that already with their Root Manus and Avatars? :-) Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:30:53 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: The point being? Message-ID: <33D4377D.175@micron.net> Alan responded to Doss' post: > > [Doss] Probably if you believe in manvantaras, slow pace does not at all matter. We > >have all the time in the world to deal with important and critical issues > >and we can pick up in the next incarnation. > > [Alan] What a wonderful justification for doing nothing at all! > > Racism, sexism, injustice, hatred, bigotry - what do they matter on so > vast a scale? Let us leave them for a life or two, or maybe many lives > or more. Sometimes spiritual teachings do seem to discourage active working on behalf of humanity. The belief that humanity (per Theosophy and others) moves from advanced to depraved can be disheartening. Conversely, science and humanism declare the opposite - that life begins as rudimentary and progresses (according to fossil study). If there is such a thing as manvantaras - where, at the end of one, all is supposed to be wiped out by a flood, except for a few humans - just to have it happen all over again - then "what's the point?" (We're supposed to have anywhere up to or beyond another 400,000 years in Kali Yuga, which is the cycle we’re supposed to be in now - I think - I got lost a long time ago in the jumble of vast and differing numbers). If one really believes that humanity worsens - or individuals only reach spiritual perfection in their own particular time - or that trying to change someone’s opinion/action is hampering their development and, in addition, getting you a extra heap of karma to have to deal with - why bother? Where do we go from here? Just work on ourselves? Stay out of politics, debates, conflicts, wars? Trust that all is well and going according to plan? Is it really not possible to hasten another person's "progress?" Is it really not possible to end the "cycles" for all beings? If so, then the suffering of beings - although different ones at different times - is eternal. So, then perhaps, hell does exist - but it's not someplace we end up, just something we all have to pass through - but why? If "Being with God," or the "Primary Source," etc., is so grand - why did we ever disjoin in the first place? What are we supposed to do with all the "wisdom" we're gaining as we pass through incarnations - just to end up back where we originated? The more I read, the more I end up chasing my tail. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:46:18 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Unbridled Shenanigans Message-ID: <33D44924.42D1@withoutwalls.com> > I contended that, given the doctrine of the Virgin Birth, he > would have to be --- after taking into account the assertions that Mary was > his mother and The Holy Spirit (who was NOT married to Mary) was his father. > For that is precisely what "illegitimate" means: born of unwed parents. I always thought it would make a good painting to show Jesus' donkey (you know, the one he rode into Jerusalem) staring straight at you while being tied up to a palm tree without anyone on him. Or for that matter, one of those gilded Buddhist lotus-blossoms that they use as pedestals for statues, all by itself alone. You could call them the "Holy Shit" paintings or something like that. I can see a whole series. Hang 'em on the wall with nice little arrangements of palm fronds and toilet paper under them. It'd bring us all a little closer, don't you think? Or how about putting beautifully carved and gilded medieval mandorlas aroung the heads of Victoria's Secret models? Or porn stars? Or use a computer setup to put them on anyone who walks in front of a video camera? You could set it up at a shopping mall and hint at the indwelling diety in each one. Or how about a picture of Vishnu on his serpent bed, adrift on the cosmic sea, dreaming (and thereby manifesting the universe) of ... Madonna? (The one with the pointy bras!) Somebody stop me ... Mark ;-) -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:02:35 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Hieroglyphics Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970721230235.007b9250@elcocomp.com> Hi Jerry! It so happens that I did my own translation of the Book of >the Dead called Coming Into The Light, which the publisher just >retitled Egyptian Magick. How intriguing! After 10 years of complaining about the translation of the Book of the Dead, I have just started working on the translation myself. >I'm not an Egyptologist, so my translations don't count in acedemia. Did you base your translation solely on symbolism? Believing that there was once a world language, I've been gathering similar words found in other languages. One example would be the common word for 'life' - 'i n kh'. In Japanese, the word for life is 'i no chi'... in fact there seems to be quite a few similarities between the Egyptian language and Japanese (and the only reason I can think for that is that the Japanese remained more in isolation). Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:29:57 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Egyptian/Eastern wisdom Message-ID: <33D4535B.2337@withoutwalls.com> >Gisele wrote: >Hi Mark! >>One meaning of the Greek Logos is "word" - a phrase or symbol taken from >>the Ancient Mysteries meaning the "Lost Word," the "lost" logos of man's >>heart and brain. The Logos of our own planetary chain, so far as this >>Fourth Round is concerned, is the Wonderous Being or Silent Watcher >>(q.v.). >Ok. Is this like the hierarchy? I've read about the 'Christ' on the sun >and 'Osiris' on the moon (which doesn't fit in well with Hancock's theories.) Yes. It is a reference to offices in Hierarchy as agents of evolution. You are opening the door to a vast body of wonderful doctrine. Who is Hancock? >>For example, according to theosophy, the first two "Divine Dynasties" of >>Egypt were supposedly highly successful Atlan civilizations (complete >>with Initiate rulers). Laying the groundwork in that region for a >>religion and culture of Adept wisdom. Likewise in the "East", having >>both the Turanian and Mongolian sub-races of the Atlantean race spread >>abroad in those areas as well as the direct influence of Shamballah in >>Central Asia. >Who's descriptions of Atlantis have you studied? I've read Steiner's, >Cayce's and Phylos the Thibetan's.... All good sources for a study of Atlan stories, lore, myths and legends. (Love that Phylos. Have you read the second Phylos book, "An Earth Dweller's Return"?) I'd add Plato, Blavatsky, N. Roerich, A.P. Sinnett, G. de Purucker, W. Scott Elliot, CWL, Manly P. Hall, A.E. Powell, A. A. Bailey, C. Berlitz, I. Donnelly, E. Churchward,and Geoffrey Ashe among others. How many more would you like? >>Whatever one may think about CWL and Annie Besant as reliable theosophic >>information sources, (If you really want to hurt your head) >I think you liked that statement. :-) "Ouch. My brain hurts. Do I really have to think about this stuff?" >>I would recommend A.E. Powell's compilation "The Solar System" (ISBN >>7229-5225-2) for an interesting and readable account of supposed early >>root race history. >I've already read Steiner's account of this and I did not have to hurt my >head :-), however I did have to make some deep readjustments. Was Powell >clairvoyant? I don't think so. I know him only as a compiler of (mainly) CWL and Annie Besant. He tried to gather theosophical info from multiple sources on various topics and make it easily accessible. Nice conversing with you, Giselle. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:08:00 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: The point being? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970722170800.00bef594@mail.eden.com> At 12:27 AM 7/22/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Alan responded to Doss' post: > >> > [Doss] Probably if you believe in manvantaras, slow pace does not at all matter. We >> >have all the time in the world to deal with important and critical issues >> >and we can pick up in the next incarnation. >> >> [Alan] What a wonderful justification for doing nothing at all! >> >> Racism, sexism, injustice, hatred, bigotry - what do they matter on so >> vast a scale? Let us leave them for a life or two, or maybe many lives >> or more. > > >Sometimes spiritual teachings do seem to discourage active working on >behalf of humanity. The belief that humanity (per Theosophy and others) >moves from advanced to depraved can be disheartening. Conversely, >science and humanism declare the opposite - that life begins as >rudimentary and progresses (according to fossil study). > >If there is such a thing as manvantaras - where, at the end of one, all >is supposed to be wiped out by a flood, except for a few humans - just >to have it happen all over again - then "what's the point?" (We're >supposed to have anywhere up to or beyond another 400,000 years in Kali >Yuga, which is the cycle we're supposed to be in now - I think - I got >lost a long time ago in the jumble of vast and differing numbers). > >If one really believes that humanity worsens - or individuals only reach >spiritual perfection in their own particular time - or that trying to >change someone's opinion/action is hampering their development and, in >addition, getting you a extra heap of karma to have to deal with - why >bother? Where do we go from here? Just work on ourselves? Stay out of >politics, debates, conflicts, wars? Trust that all is well and going >according to plan? Is it really not possible to hasten another person's >"progress?" Is it really not possible to end the "cycles" for all >beings? If so, then the suffering of beings - although different ones >at different times - is eternal. So, then perhaps, hell does exist - >but it's not someplace we end up, just something we all have to pass >through - but why? If "Being with God," or the "Primary Source," etc., >is so grand - why did we ever disjoin in the first place? What are we >supposed to do with all the "wisdom" we're gaining as we pass through >incarnations - just to end up back where we originated? > >The more I read, the more I end up chasing my tail. > > >Kym > Hi, Kim: Manvantara - end of Manu period of administration, is quite far away even if one believes the possibility. Problems that we have are here and now and now is the time for action and once this is very clear, we are ready for action right now, not at any hypothetical future time or opportunity. I was just sarcastic when I refered to Manvantara. Action is what is important and counts. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:42:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Unbridled Shenanigans Message-ID: <970722134021_1212437430@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-22 01:30:15 EDT, you write: >I always thought it would make a good painting to show Jesus' donkey >(you know, the one he rode into Jerusalem) staring straight at you while >being tied up to a palm tree without anyone on him. Or for that matter, >one of those gilded Buddhist lotus-blossoms that they use as pedestals >for statues, all by itself alone. You could call them the "Holy Shit" >paintings or something like that. I can see a whole series. Hang 'em on >the wall with nice little arrangements of palm fronds and toilet paper >under them. It'd bring us all a little closer, don't you think? Years ago,the minister would arrange for a donkey to be in front of the church every Palm Sunday so the little kids, who normally would never see such a creature in the flesh, as it were, would know what Jesus rode into Jerusalem on. Then when he came over for his Thursday afternoon martini with mother and me, I asked him why he did that. Weren't there enough jackasses in the church already? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:43:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Hieroglyphic Owl Message-ID: <970722164337_-725385488@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-21 22:59:14 EDT, Gisele wrote: > I didn't know how else to put it; because every way it would have sounded > like a big let down. :-) But, I still feel that there is much work to be > done before anyone can read the older hieroglyphics and have confidence in > the information contained in them.. so, you never know! Maybe some deeper > meaning will be found. Hi Gisele, I just wrote it off as "one of those things" and wasn't "let down" too badly about it. (Actually, I thought it was a bit humorous as it being a big joke that my mind played on me.) But, I'm still hoping that a deeper meaning, if one exists, will be found for it. :-) (quoting me) > >Take the owl, for example. Surely it means more than "in" or "at". (I'm > not basing >this on the fact of my personal experience but the potential > potency of the symbol.) > > Ok, well since you're unhappy with the traditional Egyptological response, > here's another angle which is purely speculation on my part. The 'game > board' glyph is just about always shown with a wavy line under it and > together they form a syllable 'Men' which typically means 'understanding' > or represents the 'mental' in other languages like 'mens' = > 'mind/understanding (Lat), ahmen='he who understands' (Nahuatl), manabu=to > learn (Jap), mana = to count (Heb). Seems to me that the game board > implies 'thought' and so this would 'fit' in my opinion (although > Egyptologists have not usually translated this syllable in this manner). I truly like your interpretation of this!!!!!! Whenever I've seen pictures of the Egyptian game board itself (I think the game was called "senet"?), I've always wondered if it was a strategy-based game like chess, go, or Pente which requires thought vs. a game based mainly on chance, a roll of the dice. Along with your linguistic comparisons, this would support your interpretation of the glyph if true. > > Then the 'owl' is also an 'M' and it is found in other words also. I was > told that it was usually colored 'yellow'; the color of 'intelligence' in > an aura. And of course we always say 'wise as an owl'! So, if I > personally wanted to dig deeper, I'd look in that direction.... One more > thing, it was often substituted with a 'headless bird' which perhaps could > mean 'non-useage of reason' (?) So, in those respects, you may be > right.... but it sure is a common symbol. At your suggestion, I will keep > my eyes peeled on this 'preposition'. :-) This makes a lot of sense for all of the reasons you gave. I didn't know, BTW, that glyphs were depicted in different colors!!!! Has anyone tried to group them according to color? That could lead to some interesting explorations! :-) > >> Btw, I know someone who has an awesome collection of Egyptian 'djed' > >> pillars which he's trying to determine the symbolism of. They are at: > >> > >> http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/library/libraryph.html > > > > I hope you reserve a few non-artistic thoughts to help interpret this > symbol. There is one really eerie picture of a 'djed pillar' which has > 'hands' holding up a large clear, elongated globe that has a slitheriing > snake in it which kind of reminds me of the 'innards' of a light bulb. > However, a similar hieroglyphic symbol seems to be associated with the word > 'within', with the word 'Amen', with 'horns' (or the forehead), with the > word 'aten' (which is sometimes has a determinative which is a 'face' or > portion of a 'face'), and there may even be a far-fetched connection with > 'Amen' and crystals. What would your perceptive vision tell you about that > jumble? I don't think my vision is all that perceptive, but amazingly I found this to be the most fascinating picture on the site!! Like the person who put the site together, I too have a background in electronics (was a Navy electronics technician). In fact, being that you mentioned this, I went back to the site and am writing this online windowing between that picture and this message. There appears to be a complete electrical circuit depicted there!!!!!! Part of it looks suspiciously like a current day electrical insulator or the schematic depiction of a battery. I think this is the part of the picture that you said looks like hands holding up that "large clear, elongated globe that has a slitheriing snake in it which kind of reminds me of the 'innards' of a light bulb". I don't think those are hands but some sort of support bracket and it's the structure between those "arms" that reminds me of a schematic battery or a ceramic insulator. According to Jon Jefferson, who wrote the accompanying text, the serpents (the wavy line) within the glass bulbs depict energy (rather than a lightbulb filament). There are also distinct cables(!) attached to the base of the "bulbs". (Even the entire picture itself is a sort of electric blue. ;-D) Anyway, it really blew me away. I have to think more about this and the symbols you said are similar to it. Verrrry intriguing. This is also an interesting coincidence that I was babbling something here yesterday about crystals, the piezoelectric effect, and the consciousness of rocks. (You mentioned a vaguely possible connection to the symbol for crystals. ;-D) I'm going to consider all of this further and will get back to you if I come up with anything interesting. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:52:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: KYm's opinion of ts-l Message-ID: <970722165121_-1811170571@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-21 22:59:14 EDT, you write: > Thanks. Waiting for the next issue of COSMOS-L from LOGOS SERVER. > > ........doss LOGOS SERVER? Now, that's awesome!!!!! I can see the automated welcome message now: "Thank you for subscribing to COSMOS-L. Please save a copy of this message to the Akashic Record in case you ever wish to unsubscribe. ... Signed, The Absolute aka The One About Whom Nought Can Be Said listowner" ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:35:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Unbridled Shenanigans Message-ID: <3hC7zAAlOU1zEwYK@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33D44924.42D1@withoutwalls.com>, Mark Kusek writes >Somebody stop me ... Stop it, Mark! OK? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:39:57 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hieroglyphics Message-ID: In message <3.0.1.32.19970721230235.007b9250@elcocomp.com>, Gisele writes >In >Japanese, the word for life is 'i no chi'. In Hebrew, Chiim [pl.] AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:00:16 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: The point being - Doss Message-ID: <199707230300.VAA17337@mailmx.micron.net> Doss wrote in response to my post: >I was just sarcastic when I refered to Manvantara. My post about Manvantara and other such theories wasn't a bout with you, just in case it seemed like it was - I knew you weren't serious in that instance. Yearning for answers to the questions that have been said to be unanswerable causes one to curse the sky on occasion. Buddha said it was "unhealthy" to ponder such questions. . .alas, some of us may prefer to learn the hard way. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:34:07 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: What's the point? Message-ID: I was always under the impression that the manvantara, whether it be terrestrial, solar, or universal, was not simply an inbreath which "cleared the chalkboard" and an outbreath which started the equation from square one. I had thought that the events of the previous manvantara were saved on a hard drive, so to speak, with the hard drive being the innate desire of the Absolute to once again spew its seed into the vacuum of space. The conclusions arrived at in the previous manvantara were the starting points of the next. Hmmm. In other words, all that is really destroyed is material, both spiritual and physical. The evolved desires and "intellect?" remain intact. So once the pralaya ends, those who had evolved to "supreme beings" in the previous manvantara will be the "elohim" of the current one. The "lost souls" are not really lost, but because they had not held onto the "atmic thread", they start over as the lowest on the totem pole. It is arguable what the lowest actually is, but I've read that the mineral kingdom is close. Is it terrestrially accepted that karma determines your evolutionary progress? That seems quite silly. If that was true, then the "bodisvatta" of history would be limestone in the next outbreath. I don't think karma is quite as simple as "good" or "bad". I think karma is provided to test us. Sure, we can create our own karma, but I don't think the action that created the karma is what we learn by, is it? One doesn't learn directly from punishment and reward. A child can say, "Ok, I just got spanked." That doesn't mean anything. When the child says, "Ok, I just got spanked because I flushed the family cat down the toilet," s/he knows that the spanking was delivered as a result of her/his action. A choice presents itself. The child can either choose to ignore the punishment and continue flushing the cat down the toilet, or s/he can come to the conclusion that doing such things to the cat is immoral and can, therefore, choose to rectify the situation by, 1) not doing it anymore, and/or 2)giving the cat extra comforts which might balance out the fear caused by the traumatic event. This is where the evolution takes place. If the child chooses to ignore the punishments, they will get worse. If the child chooses to simply not do it anymore, s/he has only kept her/himself from getting punished any longer. If the child chooses to give the cat special comforts, s/he will evolve a new outlook. An outlook to give pleasure. With respect to the above analogy, karma is simply a punishment (and possibly a reward). What you do ABOUT the karma is what helps you to evolve. So, IMO, it is better to help a friend (or stranger) in need, despite the karma which the significant other might bestow upon you. Not only will you be evolving yourself, but her or him as well. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:14:39 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Evolution (sub: What's the point?) Message-ID: Just as an extension to my reply, I'd like to try and define what I believe is Evolution. In the spiritual sense, of course. I don't know how it works for other people, but when I get a reward for something, it usually means that I have done something right. Therefore, I keep doing it right and I don't really learn anything from the reward. When I get punished in one way or another, I know that I've done something wrong. Because I don't like punishments, I tend to try to find a way to eliminate the discrepency. By doing so, I learn how to do things right. Therefore, for me, reward = stasis and punishment = development. That doesn't meant I just continue doing things wrong in order to receive punishment. That is the antithesis to the development process. If I continue doing things wrong, then I haven't learned anything. There is a flipside to this coin. Some people like punishment. "Oooh, spank me." Not I. Such people develop just as quickly as others, because these people normally learn how to do things the right way, but they don't want to. The only problem with this is that by causing problems for others, they slow the development of their "superiors". (I use "superiors" here because one who is inferior to you is not likely to punish you for something, however, I do realize that inferior and superior are relative to circumstance) Why? Because delivering a punishment is basically a waste of time toward one's personal development. The time one spends delivering a punishment could have been spent on making a mistake. :) Also, on the wrongdoers' side, instead of pursuing other avenues of life, they choose to concentrate on doing the wrong thing and they have to waste their time getting punished. Therefore punishment for the repeated action is a waste of time for everyone. For the person who does things right the second time, they have the chance to explore different problems and circumstances and learn from them. They are the ones who will develop. Enter left stage: Karma. Karma "acts" as a "universal" punisher, but not in the sense that it is destructive. Unfortunately, IMO, it is not some kind of personal, spiritual "parent" that follows you around wherever you go. If you are being an angel, and the rest of the world is behaving badly, you are going to get a kick in the butt just like everybody else. This is what I like to call "Karmic chaos". Even though you are being the perfect angel, you are still doing something wrong ...you're not doing enough. That is why everyone should help each other out when they can. By not doing anything with regards to someone else's problem, particularly when you have the knowledge and/or resources to help, you are doing something wrong. Why? Because when people are in a stressful situation, for instance, if a man's car breaks down on the side of the road while his wife is having contractions, he is going to be really ticked off, particularly once his wife starts yelling at him, if someone doesn't at least offer to take her to the hospital. What happens after that? Well, provided that no one picks him up, the baby could die. Or the mother. Or everything might be okay and he'll just have a really messy car. Either way, pain and suffering ensues. Pain and suffering is also a waste of time. So, all in all, you might evolve, but unless others are helped to evolve, you'll be prettly lonely up there in the vacuum of space when the next manvantara comes along. ---Short disclaimer--- The word "you" is not meant as a pointed finger to anyone in particular. It is a general term used when making reference to the general public. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:21:48 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: What's the point? Message-ID: <33D586DC.27B9@eden.com> Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: > With respect to the above analogy, karma is simply a punishment (and > possibly a reward). What you do ABOUT the karma is what helps you to > evolve. So, IMO, it is better to help a friend (or stranger) in need, > despite the karma which the significant other might bestow upon you. Not > only will you be evolving yourself, but her or him as well. > I wonder if the reward and punishment model of Karma is too simplistic. There is also the view that Karma more in the nature of equilibrising or providing justice. A good topic for discussion. After all any speculation is as good as any other, until an Adept is willing to explain it, if at all it could be explained in a comprehensive way. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:35:56 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Evolution (sub: What's the point?) Message-ID: <33D5983C.FE1BB0B5@micron.net> Jaqi wrote: > Karma "acts" as a "universal" punisher, but not in the sense that it > is > destructive. Unfortunately, IMO, it is not some kind of personal, > spiritual "parent" that follows you around wherever you go. If you > are > being an angel, and the rest of the world is behaving badly, you are > going > to get a kick in the butt just like everybody else. This is what I > like > to call "Karmic chaos". Even though you are being the perfect angel, > you > are still doing something wrong ...you're not doing enough. I agree, but Karma does seem to be basically illogical. For example - as in your "putting the cat in the toilet" analogy in one of your other posts - when the child is doing this, the child is "punished" or reprimanded immediately after the act. The child KNOWS what the error was and can, therefore, learn correctly and more quickly. But Karma does not do that. You get a "kick in the butt" without having the slightest inclination why. People are then forced to guess - Is God in one of THE moods? Is God testing me? Was I a serial killer in a previous life? Is Satan tormenting and taunting me? To cope, humanity spins terrifying tales such as Job or Hell or Heaven, or thinks itself base and undeserving. "Karmic chaos," to me, is as efficient in producing fear as is God's wrath - but, with God, perhaps if you grovel enough, you may touch a tender spot and God will look elsewhere. However, Karma is fairer, as it grants no special favors. I do believe in Karma far more than a personal God, but I do hope that Truth really is neither. Kym P.S. Interesting posts, Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:07:33 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Atlantis Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970723000733.007c46e0@elcocomp.com> Hi Mark! >Who is Hancock? I'm sorry... Graham Hancock who wrote 'Fingerprints of the Gods'. (After being on several mailing lists whose subscribers hold him as a type of 'god', I wasn't sure if you were serious or not when you asked that question.) :-) Hancock connects Osiris with Orion, however Steiner connects him with the moon. >>Who's descriptions of Atlantis have you studied? I've read Steiner's, >>Cayce's and Phylos the Thibetan's.... > >All good sources for a study of Atlan stories, lore, myths and legends. >(Love that Phylos. Have you read the second Phylos book, "An Earth >Dweller's Return"?) Yes, I have them both and I've used Phylos' quotes fairly extensively at my web page (which is on Atlantis, btw). I started redoing it/enlarging it (on my hard drive) about 6 months ago but I'm really dragging my feet about it (perhaps due to uncertainty). >I'd add Plato, Blavatsky, N. Roerich, A.P. Sinnett, >G. de Purucker, W. Scott Elliot, CWL, Manly P. Hall, A.E. Powell, A. A. >Bailey, C. Berlitz, I. Donnelly, E. Churchward,and Geoffrey Ashe among >others. How many more would you like? Which ones of the above obtained the information directly from the akashic records or independently? These are the authors that I've been looking for and this is my way of trying to maintain a steady keel on a difficult topic. I have 'The Abridgement to the Secret Doctine, and have read Plato, Berlitz, Donnelly ... >>>Whatever one may think about CWL and Annie Besant as reliable theosophic >>>information sources, (If you really want to hurt your head) > >>I think you liked that statement. :-) > >"Ouch. My brain hurts. Do I really have to think about this stuff?" Haha... it has to do with spending 10 or 15 years checking out and comparing psychic information. I think I overdeveloped my 'memory' function at the expense of some others. :-) >Nice conversing with you, Giselle. Same here! :-) Btw, do you know if there's any truth to the rumour that new ruins have been discovered near Bimini? Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 10:45:15 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Endless, pointless? Message-ID: <199707231445.KAA22365@leo.vsla.edu> According to Kym: > > Sometimes spiritual teachings do seem to discourage active working on > behalf of humanity. The belief that humanity (per Theosophy and others) > moves from advanced to depraved can be disheartening. Conversely, > science and humanism declare the opposite - that life begins as > rudimentary and progresses (according to fossil study). > Western traditions also tend to be more optimistic and to view history as unfolding in a direction towards a goal, rather than round and round indefinitely. I like the Ismai'li ideal of a spiral in which all the seven principles of a person or cosmos are evolving so that in the next cycle each one has been transformed into something higher. In Theosophical terms, manas becomes buddhi, buddhi returns to atman, etc. > If there is such a thing as manvantaras - where, at the end of one, all > is supposed to be wiped out by a flood, except for a few humans - just > to have it happen all over again - then "what's the point?" Consciousness is supposed to have evolved through all the vehicles which will ultimately be destroyed, and the next manvantara will reflect that evolution. (We're > supposed to have anywhere up to or beyond another 400,000 years in Kali > Yuga, which is the cycle we’re supposed to be in now - I think - I got > lost a long time ago in the jumble of vast and differing numbers). Since there's no evidence in favor of the Kali yuga theory, and all evidence seems against the Brahmin chronology, *and* it's a bummer to contemplate, I reject it. > > If one really believes that humanity worsens - or individuals only reach > spiritual perfection in their own particular time - or that trying to > change someone’s opinion/action is hampering their development and, in > addition, getting you a extra heap of karma to have to deal with - why > bother? Where do we go from here? Just work on ourselves? Stay out of > politics, debates, conflicts, wars? Trust that all is well and going > according to plan? Is it really not possible to hasten another person's > "progress?" Is it really not possible to end the "cycles" for all > beings? If so, then the suffering of beings - although different ones > at different times - is eternal. So, then perhaps, hell does exist - > but it's not someplace we end up, just something we all have to pass > through - but why? If "Being with God," or the "Primary Source," etc., > is so grand - why did we ever disjoin in the first place? We got bored. What are we > supposed to do with all the "wisdom" we're gaining as we pass through > incarnations - just to end up back where we originated? But we never "end up" anywhere permanently either. It just keeps going around. We, however, do not have to. > > The more I read, the more I end up chasing my tail. > The doctrine of cycles is too simplistic in Theosophical literature and leads to tail-chasing IMO. Cheers, KPJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:01:17 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Manvantaras and Yugas Message-ID: <199707231601.JAA28976@palrel3.hp.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > Sometimes spiritual teachings do seem to discourage active working on > behalf of humanity. The belief that humanity (per Theosophy and others) > moves from advanced to depraved can be disheartening. Conversely, > science and humanism declare the opposite - that life begins as > rudimentary and progresses (according to fossil study). I have to agree about the dangers of a certain passive view that has crept into the East. Of course, there is something to be said for not interfering with the Will of God. But there is also something to be said for being responsible for carrying out the Will of God. Regarding progression and regression, I can't speak as well for Theosophy as for other teachings, but many speak of a *spiral* not circular path of evolution. Much as in psychology we regress to pick up things we should have learned early in life but didn't, so does humanity have periods of regression to "re-parent" itself, but after a progression back it emerges not quite in the same place on a circle, but a little wider out on the next cycle of a spiral. Progress from life to life is much the same. We re-learn many things over again, but to erase certain prejudices that we need to forget. I believe the veils of forgetfulness, called kloshas, are a net positive thing. > If there is such a thing as manvantaras - where, at the end of one, all > is supposed to be wiped out by a flood, except for a few humans - just > to have it happen all over again - then "what's the point?" (We're > supposed to have anywhere up to or beyond another 400,000 years in Kali > Yuga, which is the cycle we’re supposed to be in now - I think - I got > lost a long time ago in the jumble of vast and differing numbers). My paragraph above gives the answer as I see it, but I'd like to address HPB's calculations about Yugas. Sri Yukteswar, in a very interesting booklet titled "The Holy Science", gives a correction to how Yugas are calculated: "The position of the world in the Dwapara Sandhi era at present (A.D. 1894) is not correctly shown in the Hindu almanacs. The astronomers and astrologers who calculate the almanacs have been guided by wrong annotations of certain Sanskrit scholars (such as Kulluka Bhatta) of the dark age of Kali Yuga, and now maintain that the length of Kali Yuga is 432,000 years, of which 4994 have (in A.Dl 1894) passed away, leaving 427,006 years still remaining. A dark prospect! and fortunately one not true. "The mistake crept into almanacs for the first time about 700 B.C. during the reign of Raja Parikshit, just after the completion of the last Descending Dwapara Yuga ... [Digression deleted about why the mistake was made to reconcile certain apparent discrepancies] "... By way of reconciliation, they fancied that 1200 years, the real age of Kali, were not the ordinary years of our earth, but were so many daiva years ('years of the gods'), consisting of 12 daiva months of 30 daiva days each, with each daiva day being equal to one ordinary solar year of our earth." > If one really believes that humanity worsens - or individuals only reach > spiritual perfection in their own particular time - or that trying to > change someone’s opinion/action is hampering their development and, in > addition, getting you a extra heap of karma to have to deal with - why > bother? Where do we go from here? Just work on ourselves? Stay out of > politics, debates, conflicts, wars? Trust that all is well and going > according to plan? Is it really not possible to hasten another person's > "progress?" It's true that some interpretations of "yield and overcome" come dangerously close to this view - inspite of violating common sense. > The more I read, the more I end up chasing my tail. Hopefully that circle spirals out after a while ;) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:27:44 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Still connected Message-ID: In message <33D26AB7.733782B1@globalserve.net>, Annette Rivington writes >Hence, my self-deduced "religion" that: >a) everyone has to reach this highly developed stage of spirituality by >"coming to it" themselves rather than following some leader or doctrine, >and this is the goal of our lives here, and >b) until everyone reaches this level, and can maintain it within >themselves without leadership or "blind faith" in some doctrine, the >"truth" will not be achieved on this earth. Sonds about right to me! > >What I have yet to figure out is how and whether the actions and >writings of any who went before are relevant to this process, other than >evidence of the process and interesting historical stuff, and whether >they may, infact, be a "temptation" for us to stop our individual >process and say that someone else found the "truth" and all we have to >do is to follow it. They are surely relevant, but the temptation(s) you suggest are, IMHO, the pitfalls to avoid. > Have to digest the concept of Masters and Atlantis >and all the other "wierd" stuff. Maybe, if it matters to you, but given your approach, maybe not essential? > Until I reach the next level of >understanding, I remain constant in my current thought that every person >is born in and with the truth, with all the capabilities of >understanding everything and that "life" is a process of rediscovery and >acceptance. Hmmm ... discovery, perhaps - why RE-discovery? And should everything be accepted regardless? Suppose our perception or interpretation is at fault? Might we not then "accept" falsehood? >Must get back to work. Will keep listening and I wish you all a good >Summer and take care of yourselves. >Annette. And the same to you! Glad to know someone cares :-) Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:39:58 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970723163958.006d47c8@mail.eden.com> At 04:12 PM 7/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >Tom wrote: > >> I hope someone brings up the CWL affair on that list, if only >> just to see what happens. If no one else does, I'll probably give it >> a try. > > >Oh, what bravery, what machismo! I dare you. I DOUBLE DOG DARE you! > > >Kym > I wish we had more Tom's. Looking forward to see what response he receives. ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:33:32 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Evolution Message-ID: <199707232033.NAA12591@palrel3.hp.com> I seem to be "inspired" by your statements and questions, Kym, although it may seem that I frequently answer with a "yes, but". Actually, since you ask questions about things many of us don't take the time to think to their conclusions, you spur a deeper thought about them. Hidden behind the "obvious" are things that aren't really obvious. > I agree, but Karma does seem to be basically illogical. For example - > as in your "putting the cat in the toilet" analogy in one of your other > posts - when the child is doing this, the child is "punished" or > reprimanded immediately after the act. The child KNOWS what the error > was and can, therefore, learn correctly and more quickly. I can think of one advantage to a delayed "punishment", though that seems to be a needlessly anthropomorphic word for it. If you experience a "kick in the butt" immediately, you stop what you're doing and you don't carry out your experiment to the fullest and see the complete consequences to others besides yourself. A delay let's you experience thoroughly the heights and depths of your actions and their consequences to others. Think of how you teach others. You let them have a hands on experience and don't intervene too often. Ann Ree Colton wrote of an Undersoul that is a kind of buffer for karma. We don't experience all the bad consequences at once because it would be too overwhelming. Soul mathematics determines how the karmic lessons are timed. Eventually, she says the Undersoul will be a fifth body. > But Karma does not do that. You get a "kick in the butt" without having > the slightest inclination why. People are then forced to guess - Is God > in one of THE moods? Is God testing me? Was I a serial killer in a > previous life? Is Satan tormenting and taunting me? To cope, humanity > spins terrifying tales such as Job or Hell or Heaven, or thinks itself > base and undeserving. Agreed, it is quite a bit of detective work to see what is speaking through misfortune. Part of the problem is that our lessons must be gut-level. Knowing emotionally as well as intellectually. We can't tell a person something is harmful to them unless we experience the consequent feelings of despair, pain and "hopelessness" and think it through ourselves. If the archangel dropped out of the heavens and said, "This is why you are suffering," would we really get it? Insights we think through in detail ourselves are always better than ones we're handed on a platter. My best research has been motivated by pain. Nothing induces the highest degree of attention that pain does. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 97 21:53:34 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Ego as Problem or Solution ? Flashlight or Selfish Hunger Message-ID: ARTHUR YOUNG: Hello, Jeff. MISHLOVE: You know, many spiritual teachers suggest that it's the ego that limits us -- that we get locked into the small, separate self, and if we could only get rid of our egos and experience the great oneness of the universe, that we would be enlightened. Yet this seems to go against the whole grain of Western thought. I wonder what you think about it. YOUNG: Well, I think the ego is essential, and it ultimately can flower into what you could call, what Jung calls, the personality -- you have these terrific personalities like movie stars and so on, after you've evolved sufficiently. But you first have to have a thing before you can give it up. So as I read nature, ego is our little ship or vehicle for experiencing the universe, and there's no point in giving it up until we've had the experiences it affords, and which only it affords. MISHLOVE: When does that point occur? YOUNG: I think it's way beyond most people today. So rather than give up their ego, they would do better to get the benefits of what the ego provides. Without the ego, all this connectedness is a confused mass. It's like having a flashlight in a cave. If you want to throw away the flashlight, you can experience the cave much better, but you won't really learn anything. Rather than get along in total darkness, you use the flashlight to examine as much as you can. Now this expands and expands if you use it; but it won't expand if you throw it away. MISHLOVE: It's as if the universe created us humans as separate entities for a purpose. Keith: I found this discussion on the net and it brought to mind that a lot terminolgy east and west are not really talking about the same thing. Psychology has a diffferent definition of ego from spiritual traditions such as theosophy. Thus when we are told to give up our ego in order to experience the Real or the Voice of the Silence, we fly in the face on all the tortuous advancement that we have made using our egos. Arthur Young is another one of these closet theosophist like Ken Wilber and Jean Houston et al. He relates that in this stage of our evolution over half way through the fourth round (ie the fifth root race-he doesn't call it this) we need our egos to know ourselves as being on the path. You can't give up something you don't have developed. He also echoes the notion that the universe isn't a bunch of colliding billiard balls called atoms that are in an entropic system that is running down to zero, but in a sea of endless energic entities with the potential for evolutionary phase after evolutionary phase. Like I said: a closet theosophist. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:53:19 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <199707240053.SAA01191@mailmx.micron.net> Doss wrote: >I wish we had more Tom's. Whoa! You really had me going there, doss! Ha! Ha! Great joke! You slay me. >Looking forward to see what response he receives. Yes, Doss, so am I. Well, Tom???? Did you ever receive an answer to your question (re: CWL) from the moderator of ts-l? If you haven't, may I suggest you rat-tat-tat a gentle, but very polite, reminder of their innocent oversite. If you have received an answer - well, need I say it? So, Tombo, it seems there may be a Santa after all - since, perhaps for the first time, I eagerly await a post from you. It was bound to happen. . . Oh, and by the way, is that YOU in the most recent Quest saying "cheese" with those other 'temples made of flesh?' Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:51:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: What's the point? Message-ID: <5li$QEAdcq1zEw48@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33D586DC.27B9@eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >I wonder if the reward and punishment model of Karma is too simplistic. >There is also the view that Karma more in the nature of equilibrising or >providing justice. A good topic for discussion. After all any >speculation is as good as any other, until an Adept is willing to >explain it, if at all it could be explained in a comprehensive way. Much too simplistic. Karma is about the relativity of cause and effect. It may be influenced by moral and ethical considerations at the human level, but in esoteric terms it is a *law* and not a point of view. Justice is a human value judgement (in common parlance at least). Esoteric Justice is indeed the maintaining of equilibrium, which is certainly one expression of karma. Karma is *never* a method of reward and punishment, these being subjective criteria. That is has been presented as such and abused as such by would be esotericists could in itself, for example, have "karmic" consequences, as seen by the diminution of the Theosophical Societies which are known to be inclined to this error. It is not, however, a judgement upon them (say) but simply a karmic consequence or their behavior. Whether you eat half your apple or throw half your apple away, you still only have half an apple left. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:56:48 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Manvantaras and Yugas Message-ID: In message <199707231601.JAA28976@palrel3.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >Is it really not possible to hasten another person's >> "progress?" Only the other person can do this, but we can point them towards useful avenues and doors we have passed along and through. The greatest teachers only ever point the way. We have to travel it ourselves, and we are free to ignore the teachers. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:05:55 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Hieroglyphic Owl Message-ID: <199707240319.XAA26615@NetGSI.com> >Take the owl, for example. Surely it means more than "in" or "at". (I'm >not basing this on the fact of my personal experience but the potential >potency of the symbol.) Well, it can also mean "inner" or "within." But I am afraid that it is just a preposition after all. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:12:05 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: 'djed pillar' Message-ID: <199707240319.XAA26618@NetGSI.com> The tet or djet or djed pillar was originally a human backbone, and was used mainly as the backbone of Osiris. I interpret it to mean stability or foundation. In regard to consciousness after death, the pillar implies maintaining one's continuity of consciousness, an ability often ascribed only to Adepts. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:24:57 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Manvantaras and Yugas Message-ID: <199707240324.VAA07040@mailmx.micron.net> Titus wrote: >I have to agree about the dangers of a certain passive view that has crept >into the East. Of course, there is something to be said for not interfering >with the Will of God. But there is also something to be said for being >responsible for carrying out the Will of God. One more time - of course, if I may - what do you mean by the "Will of God?" What kind of being is God where God would possess a "will?" And how do we know if we are "interfering with the Will of God" or "carrying out the Will of God?" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:25:02 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Evolution Message-ID: <199707240325.VAA07045@mailmx.micron.net> Titus wrote: >Ann Ree Colton wrote of an Undersoul that is a kind of buffer for karma. We >don't experience all the bad consequences at once because it would be too >overwhelming. Soul mathematics determines how the karmic lessons are timed. >Eventually, she says the Undersoul will be a fifth body. Do you have a book or work you would recommend that introduces Colton's philosophy? Thanks, Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:23:11 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Translating Hieroglyphics Message-ID: <199707240340.XAA27341@NetGSI.com> >Did you base your translation solely on symbolism? Gisele, no. Actually, I used Budge's dictionary, which he chose not to use himself. I worked under the assumption that the ancient Egyptians were reasonably intelligent, while Budge considered them "savages." In just about every instance where a direct translation would show intelligence, he did not use his own dictionary or grammar rules. The new "Bible" of hieroglyphics (Gardinar) is a bit better but not much. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:34:36 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: What Remains and What is Lost Message-ID: <199707240340.XAA27343@NetGSI.com> >I was always under the impression that the manvantara, whether it be >terrestrial, solar, or universal, was not simply an inbreath which >"cleared the chalkboard" and an outbreath which started the equation from >square one. I had thought that the events of the previous manvantara were >saved on a hard drive, so to speak, with the hard drive being the innate >desire of the Absolute to once again spew its seed into the vacuum of >space. Jaqtarin, you make a neat case here. But recall that with us human beings, our "hard drive" is lost forever and only the "aroma" of the data remains from life to life. So it is, I believe, with manvantaras. The intent of all manifestation is, I believe, to manifest. Not to learn something. Not to improve something. Not to "get" something--which would be, after all, rather selfish, wouldn't it?. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:41:21 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Karma & God Message-ID: <199707240345.XAA27522@NetGSI.com> >I do believe in Karma far more than a personal God, but I do hope that >Truth really is neither. > >Kym Me too! Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:44:45 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <199707240348.XAA27697@NetGSI.com> >The doctrine of cycles is too simplistic in Theosophical >literature and leads to tail-chasing IMO. > >Cheers, >KPJ I agree, Paul. Also with karma, reincarnation, and most other topics. Things are really a whole lot more complex then they look on the surface. And modern Theosophy only scratches the surface (I think HPB would agree with this). Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:50:40 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970724035040.00d9c230@mail.eden.com> At 08:49 PM 7/23/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote on ti-l: > >I heard today that the total membership of the TS in England is now >below 1,000. Last year it was 1,313. > >This is a minimum drop of 24% on the year. >>>clip<<< >In other words, do we think that the study of the occult or the >theosophical has within it nothing intrinsically at fault, but that the >attempt to organise and calssify it *has* - especially when the >organisation appears to have a 'hidden agenda'? Even though this can be >argued to be an appearance only, and not necessarily a fact? > > >In an ideal world in which the Three Objects were the *only* criteria >for membership of a formal, fee-paying organisation (which the current >TS clearly does not meet, other than through lip service), there would >be facilities for study, discussion and research unfettered by >"official" dogma or doctrine. One reason, I suspect, for people >remaining with the existing but dwindling organisational approach, is >that the various TS Sections still have the property, the libraries, and >other assets, which an alternative setup would have to acquire from >scratch. But how long will it be the before the TS can no longer >sustain these facilities and services? And what shall we do then? >Should we begin an attempt to set up alternative, if parallel >facilities, but with the benefit of hindsight, so that if - or more >likely when - the "official" TS is no more, there will be something >ready to take over these essential services? > >If there were, the constitition of the Adyar Society requires that its >assets be handed over to an existing organisation with aims and purposes >as close as possible to its own stated objectives, and such an >alternative would fit the bill admirably. > >So how about suggestions for setting up such facilities, and the means >of financing and maintaining them? Not a teaching organisation with a >set of esoteric doctrines, but a study-based organisation, where all or >any esoteric ideas could be freely discussed and disseminated? > >Alan 1. You have touched on a very important issue in the light of dwindling membership. To this I would add the phenomenon of aging leadership in many countries and aging membership in many lodges. 2. I do not know what the legal setup in the UK and other countries to deal with the eventuality of lodges and sections had to close for one reason or the other. 3. In the USA, in such an eventuality, the current bylaws (which many lawyers question the legality due to TSA not following its own bylaws when they were amended some time ago and there was a lot of intense discussion on this issue on theos-l) provide *all* the assets to be transferred to the Theosophical Investment Trust to hold it in trust to start another incarnation of the Society in the USA. 4. The problem with this arrangement is that once the assets are transferred, the Trustees are answerable to *no* *one* and have no legal obligation to tell *anyone* what they are doing or what they do with the assets. 5. I pointed out this problem to the TSA leadership when the bylaw revision was going on and I don't think that the TSA leadership sees the very obvious problem at all. It may not happen now; but can happen in another 20-30 years. 6. Once such a transfer takes place, the Trustees could end up doing things that are even against the basic objects of TS. This comment is made in all seriousness and is based on a very a glaring example we have. 7. Years ago, Krishnamurti Trusts ended up having a set of Trustees who are answerable to no one but themselves. They were not even answerable to Krishnamurti himself for whose benefit the Trusts were setup. Effectually, Krishnamurti, when he was alive was prevented from using the Trust owned property in Ojai and Madras for his lectures. Finally California Attorney General had to become a party to sue the Trustees and it took law suits dragging on for 18 years to get everything settled so that Krishnamurti could use the Trust assets to further his teachings. Trustees even ended up suing Krishnamurti himself personally for 9 million dollars. The litigations was finally resolved/settled only after Krishnamurti died in 1986. 8. Coincidentally, one of the Trustees involved in the above lawsuits is a well known member of TSA and is currently sitting on the Board of Trustees of the Theosophical Investment Trust and is also on the National Board of Theosophical Society in America. Very few of the even long term members of TSA are aware of this and I accidentally stumbled on it. 9. If Krishnmurti had problems with his Trust when he was alive, it does not need much imagination of how bad the situation can become with Theosophical Investment Trust holding all the assets and not answerable to anyone -- man/woman or (former) members of TSA or even God. Money can affect humans in strange ways. 10. I do not know what the long term plans are. I have not seen any response to my suggestions to TSA leadership to attend to this potential problem. They are so secretive/unresponsive that even my request quite some time ago just for a copy of the Trust document and bylaws of the Theosophical Investment Trust has not been answered till today. Mind you I am no stranger to TS and I am a dues paying member in good standing for several decades and literate enough to read and understand the intricacies of complex Trust documents. 11. It looks like every section in the world which has valuable properties need to look into this problem very closely so that we do not have a re-run of the Krishnamurti Trust episode. Intelligent men and women do not wait for an inspiration (from whatever source) to prevent future problems but try to learn from the experiences of others. I thought this might interest some of those interested in the future welfare of the TS. MKRamadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:09:20 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Still connected Message-ID: <33D6F18F.670@withoutwalls.com> > Have to digest the concept of Masters and Atlantis > and all the other "wierd" stuff. Don't forget, one day there'll be legends of us and people will romantically and mythologize us. Fantasized about what we were like and project all there hope into visions of us .... Now look around you. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:25:13 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Ego as Problem or Solution Message-ID: <199707240525.WAA22621@palrel3.hp.com> From: "JOSEPH PRICE" quotes ARTHUR YOUNG: Hello, Jeff. > MISHLOVE: You know, many spiritual teachers suggest that it's the > ego that limits us -- that we get locked into the small, separate self, and > if we could only get rid of our egos and experience the great oneness of the > universe, that we would be enlightened. Yet this seems to go against the > whole grain of Western thought. I wonder what you think about it. > YOUNG: Well, I think the ego is essential, and it ultimately can > flower into what you could call, what Jung calls, the personality -- you > have these terrific personalities like movie stars and so on, after you've > evolved sufficiently. But you first have to have a thing before you can give > it up. So as I read nature, ego is our little ship or vehicle for > experiencing the universe, and there's no point in giving it up until we've > had the experiences it affords, and which only it affords. I don't think you give up the ego. Rather you give up the idea of the ego at center stage. The ego is the wheelbarrow for the Self. Eventually it becomes the doer for the Self. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:47:05 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <340bb0eb.43469347@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >Doss wrote: >>I wish we had more Tom's. >Whoa! You really had me going there, doss! Ha! Ha! Great joke! You slay >me. Everyone else agrees with him. What's your problem? >Well, Tom???? Did you ever receive an answer to your question (re: CWL) >from the moderator of ts-l? She said that if the truth were known about CWL, the foundation of the TS as a truth-seeking organization would collapse, so it is strictly off-limits. >So, Tombo, it seems there may be a Santa after all - since, perhaps for the >first time, I eagerly await a post from you. It was bound to happen. . . I knew you couldn't resist me. >Oh, and by the way, is that YOU in the most recent Quest saying "cheese" >with those other 'temples made of flesh?' Is that the August issue? Did I make everyone else look ugly? Joan is probably in it, also. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:26:05 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Hieroglyphics Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970724002605.007c57a0@elcocomp.com> >>Japanese, the word for life is 'i no chi'. > >In Hebrew, Chiim [pl.] > >AB Thanks! I hadn't realized that. Now would you know if the 'im' part also represents a word in Hebrew like 'in'? I know that 'chi' is the word for 'blood' in Japanese and that the 'kh' part of the Egyptian 'a n kh', is a circle which either includes 3 short dashes or is colored solid red. So, would you think that the 3 short dashes might refer to the 'essence' and/or the red circle represent 'blood'? (Egyptologists have recently called it a 'sieve') Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:35:46 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Manvantaras and Yugas Message-ID: <199707240635.XAA00827@palrel3.hp.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > Titus wrote: >> I have to agree about the dangers of a certain passive view that has crept >> into the East. Of course, there is something to be said for not interfering >> with the Will of God. But there is also something to be said for being >> responsible for carrying out the Will of God. > One more time - of course, if I may - what do you mean by the "Will of God?" By Will of God I mean a wise purposive directing force outside human will. > What kind of being is God where God would possess a "will?" Others have described it much better than I could. I give credance to their descriptions partially because I have experienced fateful events outside my will directing me more wisely than I was capable of directing myself. At least they brought me to the gate of something better. I nevertheless had to walk through the gate and uphill to complete the job. > And how do we know if we are "interfering with the Will of God" or "carrying > out the Will of God?" Obviously it's an error-prone process. But you have to try. With evolvement and effort, I think you can become strengthen your guidance. A few things I try: 1) On major decisions I try to still my impulsive side and let guidance come to me or let things prove themselves to me. If I wait three days, the play of my lesser desires becomes more clear and I can often times discern if I am acting out of an egotistical or selfish desire; or out of a selfless desire. Selfless actions eventually seem to "attract" cooperation (as well as some initial resistance). 2) I look at synchronistic events that confirm or disconfirm my judgment. A humorous example from a friend of mine: against his better judgment, he procrastinated in a certain dedication and went back to sleep after his radio alarm woke him up. After the snooze period, the radio went back on with the lyrics, "You're so irresponsible ..." 3) Meditation helps. It stills restless, rajasic thoughts. But I've seen some practioners who do not have equal involvement and action that become unrealistic and fanatical. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:46:34 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Hieroglyphics Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970724004634.007dc980@elcocomp.com> >The tet or djet or djed pillar was originally a human backbone, >and was used mainly as the backbone of Osiris. I interpret >it to mean stability or foundation. In regard to consciousness >after death, the pillar implies maintaining one's continuity of >consciousness, an ability often ascribed only to Adepts. This is the traditional explanation. Do you have an idea why it would have 4 layers? Any idea what 'pillars' symbolize in other cultures? >>Did you base your translation solely on symbolism? > >Gisele, no. Actually, I used Budge's dictionary, which >he chose not to use himself. I agree with you 100%. >I worked under the assumption >that the ancient Egyptians were reasonably intelligent, >while Budge considered them "savages." In just about every >instance where a direct translation would show intelligence, >he did not use his own dictionary or grammar rules. The >new "Bible" of hieroglyphics (Gardinar) is a bit better but not >much. I'm curious to know how you handled all the 'multiple-meaning' words and if you've tried to identify words similar to the Egyptian ones in other languages. Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:52:12 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Evolution Message-ID: <199707240652.XAA02654@palrel3.hp.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > Do you have a book or work you would recommend that introduces Colton's > philosophy? "Prophet for the Archangels" is good. It is also a biography. "The Third Music" talks about the Undersoul mentioned in my last post. "Kundalini West" compares the Eastern and Western dharmas. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:02:29 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict Message-ID: <33D6FE05.86448CE1@micron.net> Tom wrote: > >[ Kym ] Well, Tom???? Did you ever receive an answer to your > question (re: CWL) > >from the moderator of ts-l? > > She said that if the truth were known about CWL, the foundation of the > > TS as a truth-seeking organization would collapse, so it is strictly > off-limits. Are you serious? What she said is an oxymoron! How can one claim to be a truth-seeking organization and then defend the hiding of a truth? How would the truth about CWL collapse the foundation of the TS? Surely it's more stable than that - and that makes the accusations against CWL sound like they've been acknowledged by the "higher-ups" in the TS. What Joan said doesn't make any sense. Are you just jesting - trying to get me, and perhaps others, all shook up or something? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:05:44 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Egyptian 'djed' Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970724010544.007c8e30@elcocomp.com> Thank-you very much, Lynn for your interesting observations regarding the objects being supported by that 'djed' figure. I passed your comments on to Michael Mandeville (which he was pleased to receive). He asked if you were interested in doing a 'circuit analysis' (which, if you were willing, he would add to that page). I don't know what would be involved in doing this, but don't feel obligated because I know I kind of nudged you to go see his collection (seeing that you found so much symbolism in the owl). :-) From what I've been able to obtain from Steiner [Egyptian Myths and Mysteries] is that the Uraeus on the forehead of the Kings represented power. The power that each king obtained was portions of the 'folk soul' which he was able to take into himself after extinguishing part of his astral and etheric bodies. This may seem far-fetched but could this picture be a symbolic representation of this (if the Egyptians associated snakes with power)? Are you or anyone else familiar with 'folk souls' (apparantly a real etheric form)? Do the 4 layers on the 'djed' mean anything to you in regards to this kind of power or even power like electricity? Is there any significance to the number of layers to Eastern towers? Incidently the word in Japanese for tower is 'to' and the hieroglyphic symbols seems to represent a similar phonetic value. Sometimes two of these are shown in a row as if to make the word, 'toto' which I've seen mentioned in regards to Mantavaras. (I knew I'd get back to Theosophy sooner or later) :-) Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:35:37 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... oooooooooooh scarry kids! Message-ID: <33D713CE.5395@withoutwalls.com> Hi Giselle! > Graham Hancock wrote 'Fingerprints of the Gods'. (After > being on several mailing lists whose subscribers hold him as a type of > 'god', I wasn't sure if you were serious or not when you asked that > question.) :-) Wow! Another 'god' I didn't know about! How come nobody ever writes "Toothpicks of the Gods?" It's like reincarnationists who were all Napolean in their past lives. How come nobody ever admits to being an Atlantean weasel farmer? > Hancock connects Osiris with Orion, however Steiner connects him with the > moon. What I challenge theosophists to find is the connection between Osiris and Bette Midler. >> I'd add Plato, Blavatsky, N. Roerich, A.P. Sinnett, >> G. de Purucker, W. Scott Elliot, CWL, Manly P. Hall, A.E. Powell, A. A. >> Bailey, C. Berlitz, I. Donnelly, E. Churchward,and Geoffrey Ashe among >> others. How many more would you like? > Which ones of the above obtained the information directly from the akashic > records or independently? These are the authors that I've been looking > for and this is my way of trying to maintain a steady keel on a difficult > topic. I have 'The Abridgement to the Secret Doctine, and have read Plato, > Berlitz, Donnelly ... I don't know how "steady a keel" any of this Atlantis stuff really is. Blavatsky, Roerich, Bailey, Churchward, and by association de Purucker, Scott Elliot, and CWL all probably claimed such direct but "questionable" sources. I know the "Legend of Altazar" was a "reputedly akashic" tale, but how would you go about proving it? > Haha... it has to do with spending 10 or 15 years checking out and > comparing psychic information. I once did a hypnotic regression with a group of people I had never met before. It was supposed to be a research investigation of Atlantis. This was my experience: I saw myself on a long beach with a high cliff and a temple complex up above it. I actually felt myself walking in the sand! We all (it seemed we were familiar with one another), were students either living or working at the temple. I saw rooms where lots of different crystal research was going on and what seemed like scientific experiments based on geometry. At one point the instructors gave us each a small, smooth white "stone" on a cord that we were to wear around our necks. It was supposed to be placed in the mouth or swallowed in the event that the "transition" happened and we were still caught on the island. There was a general air of expectancy and much preparation for preservation of the temple's treasures. The stone necklaces were apparently to aid us in leaving our bodies and to help us "make the journey" directly to a place on higher planes where we could regroup and be safe. (When I think about it now, it reminds me so much of "Heaven's Gate" that it makes the skin on the back of my neck crawl. But this was years ago. Before I'd heard of Jonestown or any other cult suicides, and at the time didnt feel scary at all. It actually felt like a caring and protective gesture from the teachers meant both to prevent us from suffering and to insure our safe arrival.) The impression I got at the time was that this was some kind of an occult prescription to help us safely transit to the "inner equivalant" of the temple where we could continue to carry on our work. It was assumed that we might die. It was almost as if we had volunteered to stay on as long as we could to help. There was so much to be done. I remember seeing lots of people with these necklaces on. When we were brought out of hypnosis, we were asked to silently write down our experiences and not to discuss them with anyone. They were collected and reviewed by the facilitator. To my astonishment, several other people had either written about or drew pictures of these necklace stones and had similar impressions about them. Quite odd! I had never met any of these people before! > Btw, do you know if there's any truth to the rumour that > new ruins have been discovered near Bimini? I only know of the Bimini information by way of Cayce, although I did see mentioned some evidence of a claimed discovery off Bimini on the web recently. It was from someone who posted to this list with a link to a bunch of Atlantis related stuff. I don't recall exactly who it was. Maybe someone else here remembers. I know I'm feeling a little punky tonight, I apologize. Mark P.S. It's not who you were or what you might have done, it's what are you going to do now? -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:25:40 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970724122540.00e63fe0@mail.eden.com> At 01:41 AM 7/24/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Kym wrote: > >>Doss wrote: > >>>I wish we had more Tom's. > >>Whoa! You really had me going there, doss! Ha! Ha! Great joke! You slay >me. > >Everyone else agrees with him. What's your problem? > >>Well, Tom???? Did you ever receive an answer to your question (re: CWL) >>from the moderator of ts-l? > >She said that if the truth were known about CWL, the foundation of the >TS as a truth-seeking organization would collapse, so it is strictly >off-limits. I appreciate the forthright statement. Several months ago, I posted a msg asking if anyone has found anything in the Elder Brother book that can be challenged to be inaccurate based on documented facts, and no one responded. In spite of all of this, let us give credit where it is due (in spite of potential flames), many came to Theosophy via CWLs writings and/or have been benefitted by them and I believe even today the book on Chakras is one of the top sellers of TPH publications. .................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:30:24 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Manvantaras and Yugas Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970724123024.00e67108@mail.eden.com> At 02:36 AM 7/24/97 -0400, Titus Roth wrote: >1) On major decisions I try to still my impulsive side and let guidance come >to me or let things prove themselves to me. If I wait three days, the play of >my lesser desires becomes more clear and I can often times discern if I am >acting out of an egotistical or selfish desire; or out of a selfless desire. >Selfless actions eventually seem to "attract" cooperation (as well as some >initial resistance). > I do use a somewhat similar technique. On major decisions even after making up my mind, I will wait overnight to finalize it unless there is a great emergency. On the other hand, I have seen some critical decisions I have taken were done based on the first thought and immediate action followed without all the logical analysis. These have proven to be correct decisions. Just add my 2 cents. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:35:19 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict Message-ID: <33e24a16.2846707@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote, unbelievably: >Tom wrote: >> >[ Kym ] Well, Tom???? Did you ever receive an answer to your >> >question (re: CWL) from the moderator of ts-l? >> She said that if the truth were known about CWL, the foundation of the >> TS as a truth-seeking organization would collapse, so it is strictly >> off-limits. >Are you serious? What she said is an oxymoron! You're so smart! >What Joan said doesn't make any sense. Are you just jesting - trying to >get me, and perhaps others, all shook up or something? It was what you wanted to hear, and you're still complaining! WOMEN!! Sheesh. She said she'd get back to me on it, and I haven't heard from her. They are having a convention, so she's busy. Is that better? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 06:13:21 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: On: Science and Religion (and Philosophy) Message-ID: <3401f241.62074917@mail.earthlink.net> RELIGION: This is an operation of the human spiritual mind in its endeavor to understand not only the How and the Why of things, but comprising in addition a yearning and striving towards Self-Conscious Union with the Divine ALL, and an endlessly growing Self-Conscious Identification with the Cosmic Divine-Spiritual Realities. It is one phase of a tri-form method of understanding the nature of Nature, of Universal Nature, and its multiform and multifold workings. This phase can not be separated from the other two phases -- Science and Philosophy -- if we wish to gain a true picture of things as they are in themselves. Religion is thus the expression of that aspect of man's Inner Consciousness which is intuitional, aspirational, and mystical, and which is often deformed and distorted through superstition and emotionalism and toxic conditioning. It is usual among modern Europeans to derive the word "religion" from the Latin meaning, "to bind back" -- religare. But there is another derivation, which Cicero used, taken from a Latin root meaning "to select," or "to choose," from which we have the word lex -- law, or the course of conduct or rule of action which is chosen as the best, as ascertained by selection, trial and proof. It thus means a careful selection of fundamental beliefs and motives by the Higher or Spiritual intellect, by the intuitional judgment and understanding. Behind all of the world's religions and philosophies, as many have pointed out, stands the Esoteric Wisdom. This is what we must Seek for rather than the facade of Religion. PHILOSOPHY: This is an operation of the human mind in its endeavor to understand not merely the How of things, but the Why -- why and how things are as they are. Like Religion and Science, it is one of the three phases of operations of Human Consciousness. Not one of these three, as can be divorced from the other two, and if such an attempt is made so to divorce them, the result is spiritual and intellectual dissatisfaction, and the mind senses an incompleteness. So, any Philosophy which is unscientific and unreligious, or any Religion which is unscientific and unphilosophical, and any science which is unphilosophical and unreligious, is erroneous because incomplete. Philosophy is that aspect of human consciousness which is correlative, and which seeks bonds of union among things and exposes them, when found, as existing in the manifold and diverse forms of natural processes, and the so-called laws which demonstrate their existence. SCIENCE: This is an operation of the human mind in its endeavor to understand the How of things -- not any particular science whatsoever, but the thing in itself -- ordered and classified knowledge. It is the aspect of human thinking in the activity of the mentality in the latter's inquisitive, researching and classifying function. Does it appear that we could meld or synthesize the three realms in the name of "Completeness" ? Any thoughts ? }*-*{ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of Society. If we're looking for the causes of our troubles, we should't test people for drugs; we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed, and love of power." -- P.J. O'Rourke Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j. }-_-{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." -- Albert Einstein From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:38:01 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: On: Science and Religion (and Philosophy) Message-ID: <33dbaed8.25926926@mail.earthlink.net> RELIGION: This is an operation of the human spiritual mind in its endeavor to understand not only the How and the Why of things, but comprising in addition a yearning and striving towards Self-Conscious Union with the Divine ALL, and an endlessly growing Self-Conscious Identification with the Cosmic Divine-Spiritual Realities. It is one phase of a tri-form method of understanding the nature of Nature, of Universal Nature, and its multiform and multifold workings. This phase can not be separated from the other two phases -- Science and Philosophy -- if we wish to gain a true picture of things as they are in themselves. Religion is thus the expression of that aspect of man's Inner Consciousness which is intuitional, aspirational, and mystical, and which is often deformed and distorted through superstition and emotionalism and toxic conditioning. It is usual among modern Europeans to derive the word "religion" from the Latin meaning, "to bind back" -- religare. But there is another derivation, which Cicero used, taken from a Latin root meaning "to select," or "to choose," from which we have the word lex -- law, or the course of conduct or rule of action which is chosen as the best, as ascertained by selection, trial and proof. It thus means a careful selection of fundamental beliefs and motives by the Higher or Spiritual intellect, by the intuitional judgment and understanding. Behind all of the world's religions and philosophies, as many have pointed out, stands the Esoteric Wisdom. This is what we must Seek for rather than the facade of Religion. PHILOSOPHY: This is an operation of the human mind in its endeavor to understand not merely the How of things, but the Why -- why and how things are as they are. Like Religion and Science, it is one of the three phases of operations of Human Consciousness. Not one of these three, as can be divorced from the other two, and if such an attempt is made so to divorce them, the result is spiritual and intellectual dissatisfaction, and the mind senses an incompleteness. So, any Philosophy which is unscientific and unreligious, or any Religion which is unscientific and unphilosophical, and any science which is unphilosophical and unreligious, is erroneous because incomplete. Philosophy is that aspect of human consciousness which is correlative, and which seeks bonds of union among things and exposes them, when found, as existing in the manifold and diverse forms of natural processes, and the so-called laws which demonstrate their existence. SCIENCE: This is an operation of the human mind in its endeavor to understand the How of things -- not any particular science whatsoever, but the thing in itself -- ordered and classified knowledge. It is the aspect of human thinking in the activity of the mentality in the latter's inquisitive, researching and classifying function. Does it appear that we could meld or synthesize the three realms in the name of "Completeness" ? Any thoughts ? ___ {* *} ******************oo0*(_)*0oo****************** "No one Saves us but ourselves, No one can and no one may -- Others can point to The Path, But we ourselves must Walk The Way" Let There Be Light -- Always In All Ways, e.j. }`-`{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "Learn some, then meditate on what you learn, then apply what survives the meditation to see if it works" - H.P. Blavatsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:08:10 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: FW: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <01BC9832.A7754B00@rvik-ppp-ps-7.ismennt.is> Jerry S. wrote: >The doctrine of cycles is too simplistic in Theosophical >literature and leads to tail-chasing IMO. > >Cheers, >KPJ I agree, Paul. Also with karma, reincarnation, and most other topics. Things are really a whole lot more complex then they look on the surface. And modern Theosophy only scratches the surface (I think HPB would agree with this). Jerry S. Einar here. Things are simple - they simply are. It is our mind and out mode of thinking that is complex. "Mind is the slayer of the real" according to Blavatsky, and when we have finally entered the "direct mode of percepting" i.e. Intuitive understanding, "things", including manvabtaras, cycles karma and reincarnation will become simple again - and totally different from what we thought before. This is why the saints and sages tell us not to bother too much about this "thinking about" things and instead turn our mind to the "direct perception". For this we need to turn inwardly, by meditation, by inrtospection, by trying to understand ourselves, our mode of thinking, our fellings, seeking intuition, direct understanding, rather than outward connfirmation. According to Patanjali yoga is the art of inhibiting or controling the modes of thinking (simply stated) or being able to stay in the mode of "silent mind", a condition where no thoughts enter the mind for a peolonged period of time. Then, states Patanjali in his third sutra, "the chela will see himself [and the world] as he really is". We will never "really" understand the world by pondering over it, trying to think our way to an understanding of it. Only direct intuitive seeing will bring us to that real understanding, and then we will understand that convaying that truth to others is almost impossible. There exists no chaos in the entire Universe. The only "chasos" there is, is the chaos in our head, which is called "Maya" or ignorance. Remove Maya and the world will return to harmony - automatacally!. (In reality - to tell the truth - Maya is also part of the universal harmony, as has be peceived in every profound mystical experience thrughout the ages). Be in peace. Einar. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:55:53 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970724105553.007bc410@elcocomp.com> Hi Mark! >> Graham Hancock wrote 'Fingerprints of the Gods'. (After >> being on several mailing lists whose subscribers hold him as a type of >> 'god', I wasn't sure if you were serious or not when you asked that >> question.) :-) > >Wow! Another 'god' I didn't know about! How come nobody ever writes >"Toothpicks of the Gods?" It's like reincarnationists who were all >Napolean in their past lives. How come nobody ever admits to being an >Atlantean weasel farmer? To tell you the truth, after looking at one of Hancock's photographs of the Sphinx, I thought he should have named his book 'Footprints of the Gods' because I can see a distinct 'footprint' shape where I expect that the Sphinx's wing was. Perhaps because they didn't have weasels on Atlantis? :-) > >> Hancock connects Osiris with Orion, however Steiner connects him with the >> moon. > >What I challenge theosophists to find is the connection between Osiris >and Bette Midler. It can be done! Bette Midler sang about 'love' and 'Horus', the son of Osiris became the symbol for the human heart. :-) >I don't know how "steady a keel" any of this Atlantis stuff really is. >Blavatsky, Roerich, Bailey, Churchward, and by association de Purucker, >Scott Elliot, and CWL all probably claimed such direct but >"questionable" sources. I know the "Legend of Altazar" was a "reputedly >akashic" tale, but how would you go about proving it? Well, the way I see it - the ones who obtained their information independently and are in agreement must be correct. Would you disagree? Thank-you for describing your experience with regression. Regarding this part: >At one point the instructors gave us each >a small, smooth white "stone" on a cord that we were to wear around our >necks. It was supposed to be placed in the mouth or swallowed in the >event that the "transition" happened and we were still caught on the >island. I've heard the name 'keepers of the white stone' mentioned before by Cayce in regards to Atlantis and I believe that there's a word in the Nahuatl language that is 'uaxactun' which I believe can be translated to be 'lord white stone'. Have you ever followed up on any of these? >P.S. It's not who you were or what you might have done, > it's what are you going to do now? I don't know if I've been researching Atlantis for my own benefit. I already believe that it existed. I am deeply troubled about an incorrect (in my opinion) view of history for one thing and also when I see others going to, what I consider to be, innaccurate sources for information. I just unsubscribed from another mailing list last night and this is the 'gist' of one of the postings on it: "Then end of the world is coming and nobody cares!" Well, this person had chosen to accept one of Nostradamus' quatrains literally (or someone's interpretation of it) about the end of the world and was very agitated. What does a person do? Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:25:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Manvantaras and Yugas Message-ID: <970724132435_1143673354@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-23 23:39:17 EDT, you write: >>I have to agree about the dangers of a certain passive view that has crept >>into the East. Of course, there is something to be said for not interfering >>with the Will of God. But there is also something to be said for being >>responsible for carrying out the Will of God. > > But that is nothing compared to making sure that god carries out the will of Chuck. Otherwise there's no point in having a god at all. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:22:24 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Manvantaras and Yugas Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970724182224.00d3db90@mail.eden.com> At 01:26 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-07-23 23:39:17 EDT, you write: > >>>I have to agree about the dangers of a certain passive view that has crept >>>into the East. Of course, there is something to be said for not interfering >>>with the Will of God. But there is also something to be said for being >>>responsible for carrying out the Will of God. >> >> > >But that is nothing compared to making sure that god carries out the will of >Chuck. Otherwise there's no point in having a god at all. > >Chuck the Heretic > At least now we can identify the will with someone we know. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:32:03 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: +.- Message-ID: <199707241832.OAA29168@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Mark Kusek > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: +.- > Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 10:52 PM > > > When thus you have overcome the force of the evil tendencies then you > > will have to abandon even the good ones. You will then experience > > the supreme truth ... > > Neither this nor that. > That a good story needs both. When the time comes that there is neither, then the gods have taken a rest from story-telling and decided to go have some beer and brats. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:55:27 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Hieroglyphics Message-ID: <199707250009.UAA01076@NetGSI.com> > Do you have an idea why it would have >4 layers? Any idea what 'pillars' symbolize in other cultures? Four is the number for foundation or firmness or support. I suspect most cultures see "pillar" as synonymous with "phallus." Here the meaning slants a bit toward Source or Ground, rather than foundation. >I'm curious to know how you handled all the 'multiple-meaning' words and if >you've tried to identify words similar to the Egyptian ones in other >languages. I tried to maintain a single meaning throughout whenever possible. Of course, some hieroglyphs are meant to take on several meanings (the owl, the mouth, and so on). One of my rules of thumb through the whole thing was that no one, not even Egyptians, would go to all the trouble to make intricate glyphs that meant nothing at all to the context. Budge and everyone else would have us believe that 10 to 20 glyphs were sometimes used to mean a single word. I always tried to break them down, and this worked well. Let me give you just one simple example. The human head is translated by Budge and others as "master." Yet when they make their translations of the Book of the Dead, this glyph suddenly means "behind." I used "master" throughout, and got such things as "Master of the Earth", Master of Fire", Master of the Universe", and so on, as special titles given as ranks or levels of attainment. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:04:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970724122540.00e63fe0@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >In spite of all of this, let us give credit where it is due (in spite of >potential flames), many came to Theosophy via CWLs writings and/or have been >benefitted by them and I believe even today the book on Chakras is one of >the top sellers of TPH publications. Amen. I came via Jinarajadasa, which is almost the same thing . For chakras I prefer Ernest Wood's well-researched info in his book, "Yoga" (A Penguin/Pelican book in the UK). Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:10:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Will of God Message-ID: The will of God? I hadn't heard he died. Did he leave me anything? Alan [This pathetic attempt at humor should not be followed up with serious attempts to point out my divine heritage and origins in Manvataras and stuff] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:55:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hieroglyphics Message-ID: In message <3.0.1.32.19970724002605.007c57a0@elcocomp.com>, Gisele writes >>>Japanese, the word for life is 'i no chi'. >> >>In Hebrew, Chiim [pl.] >> >>AB > >Thanks! I hadn't realized that. Now would you know if the 'im' part also >represents a word in Hebrew like 'in'? I know that 'chi' is the word for >'blood' in Japanese and that the 'kh' part of the Egyptian 'a n kh', is a >circle which either includes 3 short dashes or is colored solid red. So, >would you think that the 3 short dashes might refer to the 'essence' and/or >the red circle represent 'blood'? (Egyptologists have recently called it a >'sieve') > >Gisele > Alas, hieroglyphics are not my bag. The 'im' part of 'Chiim' is heb. masculine plural (!) and 'life' seems to be invariably reagrded as a plurality. Something to think about there. The singular 'Chi' is used for the name of "Eve" in Genesis, for *she* is the mother of all living. Confused .... ? Who isn't! Good luck with your research. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:27:08 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970725032708.00e75e54@mail.eden.com> At 08:54 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970724122540.00e63fe0@mail.eden.com>, >ramadoss@eden.com writes >>In spite of all of this, let us give credit where it is due (in spite of >>potential flames), many came to Theosophy via CWLs writings and/or have been >>benefitted by them and I believe even today the book on Chakras is one of >>the top sellers of TPH publications. > >Amen. I came via Jinarajadasa, which is almost the same thing . >For chakras I prefer Ernest Wood's well-researched info in his book, >"Yoga" (A Penguin/Pelican book in the UK). > >Alan >--------- I have not seen Wood's book. Should try to get hold of one and I am sure it is going to be interesting and informative, knowing the background of Wood. BTW, more than 20 years ago, I gave Jinarajadasa's book First Priciples of Theosophy to a well known Professor dealing with General Systems Theory and who was brought up in the Southern USA as a Baptist, and it was very enlightening for him. His narrow training as a Baptist helped him to appreciate Theosophical view and even though he never became a member of TS, he was indeed affected by Theosophy as I could see his outlook on life and his very helpfulness towards his acquaintances and students. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:32:22 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Will of God Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970725033222.00e3f874@mail.eden.com> At 08:58 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >The will of God? I hadn't heard he died. Did he leave me anything? > >Alan > >[This pathetic attempt at humor should not be followed up with serious >attempts to point out my divine heritage and origins in Manvataras and >stuff] The attorney who drew up the document was the sole beneficiary. That way no inheritance taxes are due from the attorney nor any income taxes. Per at least US Internal Revenue Code. Other countries will have different laws. But legislators fearing the wrath of god, will go easy on this issue. In jest. ...................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:47:32 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: FW: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970725034732.00e0ef84@mail.eden.com> At 09:05 AM 7/24/97 -0400, Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A. wrote: >Jerry S. wrote: >>The doctrine of cycles is too simplistic in Theosophical >>literature and leads to tail-chasing IMO. >> >>Cheers, >>KPJ > >I agree, Paul. Also with karma, reincarnation, and most other topics. >Things are really a whole lot more complex then they look on the >surface. And modern Theosophy only scratches the surface (I think >HPB would agree with this). > >Jerry S. > >Einar here. > >Things are simple - they simply are. >It is our mind and out mode of thinking that is complex. >"Mind is the slayer of the real" according to Blavatsky, and when we have finally entered the "direct mode of percepting" i.e. Intuitive understanding, "things", including manvabtaras, cycles karma and reincarnation will become simple again - and totally different from what we thought before. >This is why the saints and sages tell us not to bother too much about this "thinking about" things and instead turn our mind to the "direct perception". For this we need to turn inwardly, by meditation, by inrtospection, by trying to understand ourselves, our mode of thinking, our fellings, seeking intuition, direct understanding, rather than outward connfirmation. >According to Patanjali yoga is the art of inhibiting or controling the modes of thinking (simply stated) or being able to stay in the mode of "silent mind", a condition where no thoughts enter the mind for a peolonged period of time. Then, states Patanjali in his third sutra, "the chela will see himself [and the world] as he really is". >We will never "really" understand the world by pondering over it, trying to think our way to an understanding of it. Only direct intuitive seeing will bring us to that real understanding, and then we will understand that convaying that truth to others is almost impossible. > >There exists no chaos in the entire Universe. The only "chasos" there is, is the chaos in our head, which is called "Maya" or ignorance. Remove Maya and the world will return to harmony - automatacally!. (In reality - to tell the truth - Maya is also part of the universal harmony, as has be peceived in every profound mystical experience thrughout the ages). > >Be in peace. > >Einar. > Well said, Einar. I am reminded by what a well known lecturer told us in a lecture a couple of years. All the writings and the ideas presented in various important writings are inspired ones. But we get stuck to the writings and try to interpret and split hairs. The intent and the hope of the writers is that the readers do not stop at them but go to the source of inspiration and find out first hand for themselves the things that were written. Also I am reminded of the story which is ascribed to Lord Buddha, that he said that there is going to be a lot different opinions and ideas about thing unseen. So let us concentrate and deal with things all of us see. That was the basis of his practical approach to deal with the root of sorrow and suffering. Again, all the ideas about reincarnation, cycles, rounds etc. aside, we do have problems to deal with here and now, like a house being on fire and the immediate urgency is one of putting out the fire and not trying to find out scientifically or forensically why the house is on fire. Differnt strokes for different people, I suppose and as always YMDMV for everyone who is reading this. .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:08:10 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: FW: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <01BC9832.A7754B00@rvik-ppp-ps-7.ismennt.is> Jerry S. wrote: >The doctrine of cycles is too simplistic in Theosophical >literature and leads to tail-chasing IMO. > >Cheers, >KPJ I agree, Paul. Also with karma, reincarnation, and most other topics. Things are really a whole lot more complex then they look on the surface. And modern Theosophy only scratches the surface (I think HPB would agree with this). Jerry S. Einar here. Things are simple - they simply are. It is our mind and out mode of thinking that is complex. "Mind is the slayer of the real" according to Blavatsky, and when we have finally entered the "direct mode of percepting" i.e. Intuitive understanding, "things", including manvabtaras, cycles karma and reincarnation will become simple again - and totally different from what we thought before. This is why the saints and sages tell us not to bother too much about this "thinking about" things and instead turn our mind to the "direct perception". For this we need to turn inwardly, by meditation, by inrtospection, by trying to understand ourselves, our mode of thinking, our fellings, seeking intuition, direct understanding, rather than outward connfirmation. According to Patanjali yoga is the art of inhibiting or controling the modes of thinking (simply stated) or being able to stay in the mode of "silent mind", a condition where no thoughts enter the mind for a peolonged period of time. Then, states Patanjali in his third sutra, "the chela will see himself [and the world] as he really is". We will never "really" understand the world by pondering over it, trying to think our way to an understanding of it. Only direct intuitive seeing will bring us to that real understanding, and then we will understand that convaying that truth to others is almost impossible. There exists no chaos in the entire Universe. The only "chasos" there is, is the chaos in our head, which is called "Maya" or ignorance. Remove Maya and the world will return to harmony - automatacally!. (In reality - to tell the truth - Maya is also part of the universal harmony, as has be peceived in every profound mystical experience thrughout the ages). Be in peace. Einar. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:55:53 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970724105553.007bc410@elcocomp.com> Hi Mark! >> Graham Hancock wrote 'Fingerprints of the Gods'. (After >> being on several mailing lists whose subscribers hold him as a type of >> 'god', I wasn't sure if you were serious or not when you asked that >> question.) :-) > >Wow! Another 'god' I didn't know about! How come nobody ever writes >"Toothpicks of the Gods?" It's like reincarnationists who were all >Napolean in their past lives. How come nobody ever admits to being an >Atlantean weasel farmer? To tell you the truth, after looking at one of Hancock's photographs of the Sphinx, I thought he should have named his book 'Footprints of the Gods' because I can see a distinct 'footprint' shape where I expect that the Sphinx's wing was. Perhaps because they didn't have weasels on Atlantis? :-) > >> Hancock connects Osiris with Orion, however Steiner connects him with the >> moon. > >What I challenge theosophists to find is the connection between Osiris >and Bette Midler. It can be done! Bette Midler sang about 'love' and 'Horus', the son of Osiris became the symbol for the human heart. :-) >I don't know how "steady a keel" any of this Atlantis stuff really is. >Blavatsky, Roerich, Bailey, Churchward, and by association de Purucker, >Scott Elliot, and CWL all probably claimed such direct but >"questionable" sources. I know the "Legend of Altazar" was a "reputedly >akashic" tale, but how would you go about proving it? Well, the way I see it - the ones who obtained their information independently and are in agreement must be correct. Would you disagree? Thank-you for describing your experience with regression. Regarding this part: >At one point the instructors gave us each >a small, smooth white "stone" on a cord that we were to wear around our >necks. It was supposed to be placed in the mouth or swallowed in the >event that the "transition" happened and we were still caught on the >island. I've heard the name 'keepers of the white stone' mentioned before by Cayce in regards to Atlantis and I believe that there's a word in the Nahuatl language that is 'uaxactun' which I believe can be translated to be 'lord white stone'. Have you ever followed up on any of these? >P.S. It's not who you were or what you might have done, > it's what are you going to do now? I don't know if I've been researching Atlantis for my own benefit. I already believe that it existed. I am deeply troubled about an incorrect (in my opinion) view of history for one thing and also when I see others going to, what I consider to be, innaccurate sources for information. I just unsubscribed from another mailing list last night and this is the 'gist' of one of the postings on it: "Then end of the world is coming and nobody cares!" Well, this person had chosen to accept one of Nostradamus' quatrains literally (or someone's interpretation of it) about the end of the world and was very agitated. What does a person do? Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:25:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Manvantaras and Yugas Message-ID: <970724132435_1143673354@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-23 23:39:17 EDT, you write: >>I have to agree about the dangers of a certain passive view that has crept >>into the East. Of course, there is something to be said for not interfering >>with the Will of God. But there is also something to be said for being >>responsible for carrying out the Will of God. > > But that is nothing compared to making sure that god carries out the will of Chuck. Otherwise there's no point in having a god at all. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:22:24 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Manvantaras and Yugas Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970724182224.00d3db90@mail.eden.com> At 01:26 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-07-23 23:39:17 EDT, you write: > >>>I have to agree about the dangers of a certain passive view that has crept >>>into the East. Of course, there is something to be said for not interfering >>>with the Will of God. But there is also something to be said for being >>>responsible for carrying out the Will of God. >> >> > >But that is nothing compared to making sure that god carries out the will of >Chuck. Otherwise there's no point in having a god at all. > >Chuck the Heretic > At least now we can identify the will with someone we know. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:32:03 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: +.- Message-ID: <199707241832.OAA29168@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Mark Kusek > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: +.- > Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 10:52 PM > > > When thus you have overcome the force of the evil tendencies then you > > will have to abandon even the good ones. You will then experience > > the supreme truth ... > > Neither this nor that. > That a good story needs both. When the time comes that there is neither, then the gods have taken a rest from story-telling and decided to go have some beer and brats. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:55:27 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Hieroglyphics Message-ID: <199707250009.UAA01076@NetGSI.com> > Do you have an idea why it would have >4 layers? Any idea what 'pillars' symbolize in other cultures? Four is the number for foundation or firmness or support. I suspect most cultures see "pillar" as synonymous with "phallus." Here the meaning slants a bit toward Source or Ground, rather than foundation. >I'm curious to know how you handled all the 'multiple-meaning' words and if >you've tried to identify words similar to the Egyptian ones in other >languages. I tried to maintain a single meaning throughout whenever possible. Of course, some hieroglyphs are meant to take on several meanings (the owl, the mouth, and so on). One of my rules of thumb through the whole thing was that no one, not even Egyptians, would go to all the trouble to make intricate glyphs that meant nothing at all to the context. Budge and everyone else would have us believe that 10 to 20 glyphs were sometimes used to mean a single word. I always tried to break them down, and this worked well. Let me give you just one simple example. The human head is translated by Budge and others as "master." Yet when they make their translations of the Book of the Dead, this glyph suddenly means "behind." I used "master" throughout, and got such things as "Master of the Earth", Master of Fire", Master of the Universe", and so on, as special titles given as ranks or levels of attainment. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:04:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970724122540.00e63fe0@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >In spite of all of this, let us give credit where it is due (in spite of >potential flames), many came to Theosophy via CWLs writings and/or have been >benefitted by them and I believe even today the book on Chakras is one of >the top sellers of TPH publications. Amen. I came via Jinarajadasa, which is almost the same thing . For chakras I prefer Ernest Wood's well-researched info in his book, "Yoga" (A Penguin/Pelican book in the UK). Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:10:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Will of God Message-ID: The will of God? I hadn't heard he died. Did he leave me anything? Alan [This pathetic attempt at humor should not be followed up with serious attempts to point out my divine heritage and origins in Manvataras and stuff] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:55:16 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hieroglyphics Message-ID: In message <3.0.1.32.19970724002605.007c57a0@elcocomp.com>, Gisele writes >>>Japanese, the word for life is 'i no chi'. >> >>In Hebrew, Chiim [pl.] >> >>AB > >Thanks! I hadn't realized that. Now would you know if the 'im' part also >represents a word in Hebrew like 'in'? I know that 'chi' is the word for >'blood' in Japanese and that the 'kh' part of the Egyptian 'a n kh', is a >circle which either includes 3 short dashes or is colored solid red. So, >would you think that the 3 short dashes might refer to the 'essence' and/or >the red circle represent 'blood'? (Egyptologists have recently called it a >'sieve') > >Gisele > Alas, hieroglyphics are not my bag. The 'im' part of 'Chiim' is heb. masculine plural (!) and 'life' seems to be invariably reagrded as a plurality. Something to think about there. The singular 'Chi' is used for the name of "Eve" in Genesis, for *she* is the mother of all living. Confused .... ? Who isn't! Good luck with your research. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:27:08 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970725032708.00e75e54@mail.eden.com> At 08:54 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970724122540.00e63fe0@mail.eden.com>, >ramadoss@eden.com writes >>In spite of all of this, let us give credit where it is due (in spite of >>potential flames), many came to Theosophy via CWLs writings and/or have been >>benefitted by them and I believe even today the book on Chakras is one of >>the top sellers of TPH publications. > >Amen. I came via Jinarajadasa, which is almost the same thing . >For chakras I prefer Ernest Wood's well-researched info in his book, >"Yoga" (A Penguin/Pelican book in the UK). > >Alan >--------- I have not seen Wood's book. Should try to get hold of one and I am sure it is going to be interesting and informative, knowing the background of Wood. BTW, more than 20 years ago, I gave Jinarajadasa's book First Priciples of Theosophy to a well known Professor dealing with General Systems Theory and who was brought up in the Southern USA as a Baptist, and it was very enlightening for him. His narrow training as a Baptist helped him to appreciate Theosophical view and even though he never became a member of TS, he was indeed affected by Theosophy as I could see his outlook on life and his very helpfulness towards his acquaintances and students. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:32:22 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Will of God Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970725033222.00e3f874@mail.eden.com> At 08:58 PM 7/24/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >The will of God? I hadn't heard he died. Did he leave me anything? > >Alan > >[This pathetic attempt at humor should not be followed up with serious >attempts to point out my divine heritage and origins in Manvataras and >stuff] The attorney who drew up the document was the sole beneficiary. That way no inheritance taxes are due from the attorney nor any income taxes. Per at least US Internal Revenue Code. Other countries will have different laws. But legislators fearing the wrath of god, will go easy on this issue. In jest. ...................doss ........ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 22:47:32 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: FW: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970725034732.00e0ef84@mail.eden.com> At 09:05 AM 7/24/97 -0400, Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A. wrote: >Jerry S. wrote: >>The doctrine of cycles is too simplistic in Theosophical >>literature and leads to tail-chasing IMO. >> >>Cheers, >>KPJ > >I agree, Paul. Also with karma, reincarnation, and most other topics. >Things are really a whole lot more complex then they look on the >surface. And modern Theosophy only scratches the surface (I think >HPB would agree with this). > >Jerry S. > >Einar here. > >Things are simple - they simply are. >It is our mind and out mode of thinking that is complex. >"Mind is the slayer of the real" according to Blavatsky, and when we have finally entered the "direct mode of percepting" i.e. Intuitive understanding, "things", including manvabtaras, cycles karma and reincarnation will become simple again - and totally different from what we thought before. >This is why the saints and sages tell us not to bother too much about this "thinking about" things and instead turn our mind to the "direct perception". For this we need to turn inwardly, by meditation, by inrtospection, by trying to understand ourselves, our mode of thinking, our fellings, seeking intuition, direct understanding, rather than outward connfirmation. >According to Patanjali yoga is the art of inhibiting or controling the modes of thinking (simply stated) or being able to stay in the mode of "silent mind", a condition where no thoughts enter the mind for a peolonged period of time. Then, states Patanjali in his third sutra, "the chela will see himself [and the world] as he really is". >We will never "really" understand the world by pondering over it, trying to think our way to an understanding of it. Only direct intuitive seeing will bring us to that real understanding, and then we will understand that convaying that truth to others is almost impossible. > >There exists no chaos in the entire Universe. The only "chasos" there is, is the chaos in our head, which is called "Maya" or ignorance. Remove Maya and the world will return to harmony - automatacally!. (In reality - to tell the truth - Maya is also part of the universal harmony, as has be peceived in every profound mystical experience thrughout the ages). > >Be in peace. > >Einar. > Well said, Einar. I am reminded by what a well known lecturer told us in a lecture a couple of years. All the writings and the ideas presented in various important writings are inspired ones. But we get stuck to the writings and try to interpret and split hairs. The intent and the hope of the writers is that the readers do not stop at them but go to the source of inspiration and find out first hand for themselves the things that were written. Also I am reminded of the story which is ascribed to Lord Buddha, that he said that there is going to be a lot different opinions and ideas about thing unseen. So let us concentrate and deal with things all of us see. That was the basis of his practical approach to deal with the root of sorrow and suffering. Again, all the ideas about reincarnation, cycles, rounds etc. aside, we do have problems to deal with here and now, like a house being on fire and the immediate urgency is one of putting out the fire and not trying to find out scientifically or forensically why the house is on fire. Differnt strokes for different people, I suppose and as always YMDMV for everyone who is reading this. .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 21:11:26 -0800 From: ipgbooks@indexbooks.com (Susan) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1147 Message-ID: <199707250409.VAA29940@powergrid.electriciti.com> thhheos-l@vnet.net unsubscribe From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:14:16 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... Message-ID: <33D86051.27F8@withoutwalls.com> Hi Giselle, > Perhaps because they didn't have weasels on Atlantis? :-) "Weasel! Weasel!" >> I don't know how "steady a keel" any of this Atlantis stuff really is. >> Blavatsky, Roerich, Bailey, Churchward, and by association de Purucker, >> Scott Elliot, and CWL all probably claimed such direct but >> "questionable" sources. I know the "Legend of Altazar" was a "reputedly >> akashic" tale, but how would you go about proving it? > Well, the way I see it - the ones who obtained their information > independently and are in agreement must be correct. Would you disagree? I would note the agreement with fascination, but couldn't honestly conclude that the information was correct. However, I do find the whole subject extremely interesting. > I've heard the name 'keepers of the white stone' mentioned before by Cayce > in regards to Atlantis and I believe that there's a word in the Nahuatl > language that is 'uaxactun' which I believe can be translated to be 'lord > white stone'. Have you ever followed up on any of these? No, I wasn't aware of either of these. What did Cayce have to say about the "keepers?' > I don't know if I've been researching Atlantis for my own benefit. I > already believe that it existed. I am deeply troubled about an incorrect > (in my opinion) view of history for one thing and also when I see others > going to, what I consider to be, innaccurate sources for information. Even with hard physical evidence our understanding of history is always relative and incomplete. How do you define "correctness" of view or "accurate" sources of information, especially with regard to deep history? Historical studies all have their own fontiers of the unknown. They blend imperceptibly into the mythic. The older I get the more comfortable I am living with what is not known. I'm not saying we shouldn't continually try to discover history, but realize that with each discovery come more questions and a shifting of the boundary of the known/unknown. History is a social construct. > I just unsubscribed from another mailing list last night and this is the > 'gist' of one of the postings on it: "Then end of the world is coming and > nobody cares!" Well, this person had chosen to accept one of Nostradamus' > quatrains literally (or someone's interpretation of it) about the end of > the world and was very agitated. There are lots of people like that, especially now that the millenium is upon us. They are encountering their own fear. They are feeling alienated. > What does a person do? Loving kindness. Compassion. Wisdom. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 9:33:19 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Independent and correct? Message-ID: <199707251333.JAA05090@leo.vsla.edu> Gisele wrote (re Blavatsky, Roerich, Bailey, Churchward, etc.): ..the ones who obtained their information independently and are in agreement must be correct. Would you disagree? Having just finished my book on Cayce, I'm free to participate in the list a bit more. First off, some background so you'll know where I'm coming from. The book appraises Cayce's readings in four categories, which I call Holistic Health Advisor, Christian Theosopher, Clairvoyant Time Traveler, and Esoteric Psychologist. I evaluate the readings both in context of current contemporary knowledge (now) and their cultural background and relevant similar sources. The gist of my findings is that the medical, psychological and spiritual advice in the readings holds up quite well to scrutiny, but the historical and predictive material illustrates how unreliable trance-generated information can be. It is simply wrongheaded to think of Cayce, Blavatsky, Donnelly, et al as coming up with their Atlantis material *independently* of one another. It can be clearly demonstrated that much of Cayce on Atlantis comes from "Phylos," HPB, Donnelly and some others. He originates fairly little and mostly elaborates on other people's stuff-- and in places talks of it (in readings I mean) in a very equivocal way, saying it's all legendary.(!) This does not mean that Cayce read books by all these figures-- he apparently did not read much occult literature. Even when he can be shown to have read such books, there are always readings recipients who can be seen to know them much more thoroughly than Cayce. Rather, he acquired understanding of their contents through correspondence, conversation, and maybe ESP too, with reading playing a small part. My conclusion: much of the material in the readings good and bad is derived from the minds of the readings recipients. With dozens of Theosophists and occultists getting readings, all their preoccupations made it into the Cayce corpus: root races, Atlantis, Lemuria, etc. There were more New Thought disciples, Christian Scientists, and Unity members than Theosophists among those who got readings. So there's more in them about "mental healing" than most other subjects. Please remember that Cayce explicitly says the akashic records are not some absolute storehouse of truth in some objective location somewhere. He says quite clearly that they are *in the persons* for whom he does the readings. It's their minds and souls he's reading, not some objectively accurate source of truth. Which means all the nutty theories a bunch of 1930s-40s seekers might have entertained are part of his database. Including, most notoriously, the idea that Hitler would be good for Germany (quickly retracted by 1935), and such wild claims as that the Yucatan pyramids are many thousands of years old and built by Atlantean migrants. I admit the possibility that Plato's story of Atlantis might be based on a true story. But the Cayce/Donnelly/Blavatsky etc. legend of a huge continent spanning the Atlantic with a highly advanced technological sophistication 10,000 B.C. is fictional. However, it's quite interesting that many of the alleged technological wonders of Atlantis in Cayce's readings did not exist during his lifetime, but came into being afterwards. Laser surgery, domed power plants with the power to destroy the environment, and several other supposedly Atlantean descriptions actually look like *precognition imagining that it is retrocognition.* Lots of people resonate to the legends of Atlantis, dream or imagine past lives there, and take this as proof. But there are also people who believe in alien abductions, ritual satanic child abuse, and all manner of things on the basis of supposedly "independent" testimony that in fact is not so. Rather, it's due to contagion of weird theories through highly suggestible minds IMO. Finally, I'll just say about Hancock and Bauval that my intuition tells me their stuff is a crock, and the Egyptologists are quite right to dismiss it. Hancock has gone off the deep end making wild accusations about conspiracy theories involving the A.R.E. and the Egyptian government, which indicates how his mind works. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:15:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... Message-ID: <970725111416_2092957376@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-24 18:38:05 EDT, you write: > "Then end of the world is coming and >nobody cares!" Well, this person had chosen to accept one of Nostradamus' >quatrains literally (or someone's interpretation of it) about the end of >the world and was very agitated. What does a person do? > > If the end of the world really is coming, then there is nothing to be done but party until it happens. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:48:22 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: A New Book Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970725234822.00e92e2c@mail.eden.com> I just found out about a new book on Krishnaji by Gabriele Blackburn. I have not seen the book yet and is not available either at KFA or any of the large retailers. The author is the daughter of Vigevano, one of the Trustees of the now defunct Krishnamurti Trusts and seems to have known K for a long time. I will be looking forward to getting hold of a copy. The Light of Krishnamurti by Gabriele Blackburn ISBN 09613054-4-4 pp 260; $14.00 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 21:11:26 -0800 From: ipgbooks@indexbooks.com (Susan) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1147 Message-ID: <199707250409.VAA29940@powergrid.electriciti.com> thhheos-l@vnet.net unsubscribe From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:14:16 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... Message-ID: <33D86051.27F8@withoutwalls.com> Hi Giselle, > Perhaps because they didn't have weasels on Atlantis? :-) "Weasel! Weasel!" >> I don't know how "steady a keel" any of this Atlantis stuff really is. >> Blavatsky, Roerich, Bailey, Churchward, and by association de Purucker, >> Scott Elliot, and CWL all probably claimed such direct but >> "questionable" sources. I know the "Legend of Altazar" was a "reputedly >> akashic" tale, but how would you go about proving it? > Well, the way I see it - the ones who obtained their information > independently and are in agreement must be correct. Would you disagree? I would note the agreement with fascination, but couldn't honestly conclude that the information was correct. However, I do find the whole subject extremely interesting. > I've heard the name 'keepers of the white stone' mentioned before by Cayce > in regards to Atlantis and I believe that there's a word in the Nahuatl > language that is 'uaxactun' which I believe can be translated to be 'lord > white stone'. Have you ever followed up on any of these? No, I wasn't aware of either of these. What did Cayce have to say about the "keepers?' > I don't know if I've been researching Atlantis for my own benefit. I > already believe that it existed. I am deeply troubled about an incorrect > (in my opinion) view of history for one thing and also when I see others > going to, what I consider to be, innaccurate sources for information. Even with hard physical evidence our understanding of history is always relative and incomplete. How do you define "correctness" of view or "accurate" sources of information, especially with regard to deep history? Historical studies all have their own fontiers of the unknown. They blend imperceptibly into the mythic. The older I get the more comfortable I am living with what is not known. I'm not saying we shouldn't continually try to discover history, but realize that with each discovery come more questions and a shifting of the boundary of the known/unknown. History is a social construct. > I just unsubscribed from another mailing list last night and this is the > 'gist' of one of the postings on it: "Then end of the world is coming and > nobody cares!" Well, this person had chosen to accept one of Nostradamus' > quatrains literally (or someone's interpretation of it) about the end of > the world and was very agitated. There are lots of people like that, especially now that the millenium is upon us. They are encountering their own fear. They are feeling alienated. > What does a person do? Loving kindness. Compassion. Wisdom. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 9:33:19 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Independent and correct? Message-ID: <199707251333.JAA05090@leo.vsla.edu> Gisele wrote (re Blavatsky, Roerich, Bailey, Churchward, etc.): ..the ones who obtained their information independently and are in agreement must be correct. Would you disagree? Having just finished my book on Cayce, I'm free to participate in the list a bit more. First off, some background so you'll know where I'm coming from. The book appraises Cayce's readings in four categories, which I call Holistic Health Advisor, Christian Theosopher, Clairvoyant Time Traveler, and Esoteric Psychologist. I evaluate the readings both in context of current contemporary knowledge (now) and their cultural background and relevant similar sources. The gist of my findings is that the medical, psychological and spiritual advice in the readings holds up quite well to scrutiny, but the historical and predictive material illustrates how unreliable trance-generated information can be. It is simply wrongheaded to think of Cayce, Blavatsky, Donnelly, et al as coming up with their Atlantis material *independently* of one another. It can be clearly demonstrated that much of Cayce on Atlantis comes from "Phylos," HPB, Donnelly and some others. He originates fairly little and mostly elaborates on other people's stuff-- and in places talks of it (in readings I mean) in a very equivocal way, saying it's all legendary.(!) This does not mean that Cayce read books by all these figures-- he apparently did not read much occult literature. Even when he can be shown to have read such books, there are always readings recipients who can be seen to know them much more thoroughly than Cayce. Rather, he acquired understanding of their contents through correspondence, conversation, and maybe ESP too, with reading playing a small part. My conclusion: much of the material in the readings good and bad is derived from the minds of the readings recipients. With dozens of Theosophists and occultists getting readings, all their preoccupations made it into the Cayce corpus: root races, Atlantis, Lemuria, etc. There were more New Thought disciples, Christian Scientists, and Unity members than Theosophists among those who got readings. So there's more in them about "mental healing" than most other subjects. Please remember that Cayce explicitly says the akashic records are not some absolute storehouse of truth in some objective location somewhere. He says quite clearly that they are *in the persons* for whom he does the readings. It's their minds and souls he's reading, not some objectively accurate source of truth. Which means all the nutty theories a bunch of 1930s-40s seekers might have entertained are part of his database. Including, most notoriously, the idea that Hitler would be good for Germany (quickly retracted by 1935), and such wild claims as that the Yucatan pyramids are many thousands of years old and built by Atlantean migrants. I admit the possibility that Plato's story of Atlantis might be based on a true story. But the Cayce/Donnelly/Blavatsky etc. legend of a huge continent spanning the Atlantic with a highly advanced technological sophistication 10,000 B.C. is fictional. However, it's quite interesting that many of the alleged technological wonders of Atlantis in Cayce's readings did not exist during his lifetime, but came into being afterwards. Laser surgery, domed power plants with the power to destroy the environment, and several other supposedly Atlantean descriptions actually look like *precognition imagining that it is retrocognition.* Lots of people resonate to the legends of Atlantis, dream or imagine past lives there, and take this as proof. But there are also people who believe in alien abductions, ritual satanic child abuse, and all manner of things on the basis of supposedly "independent" testimony that in fact is not so. Rather, it's due to contagion of weird theories through highly suggestible minds IMO. Finally, I'll just say about Hancock and Bauval that my intuition tells me their stuff is a crock, and the Egyptologists are quite right to dismiss it. Hancock has gone off the deep end making wild accusations about conspiracy theories involving the A.R.E. and the Egyptian government, which indicates how his mind works. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:15:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... Message-ID: <970725111416_2092957376@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-24 18:38:05 EDT, you write: > "Then end of the world is coming and >nobody cares!" Well, this person had chosen to accept one of Nostradamus' >quatrains literally (or someone's interpretation of it) about the end of >the world and was very agitated. What does a person do? > > If the end of the world really is coming, then there is nothing to be done but party until it happens. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:27:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Will of God Message-ID: <970725112607_-855711418@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-25 09:49:39 EDT, you write: >The attorney who drew up the document was the sole beneficiary. That way no >inheritance taxes are due from the attorney nor any income taxes. Per at >least US Internal Revenue Code. Other countries will have different laws. >But legislators fearing the wrath of god, will go easy on this issue. > >In jest. > >...................doss The German parliament just disappeared in a puff of blue smoke, leaving nothing behind but a number of pillars of salt. Chuck the Heretic "Screw the ten, the city's gone!" Jehovah From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:21:50 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict Message-ID: <199707252319.TAA09251@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: kymsmith@micron.net > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict > Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 1:59 AM > > Tom wrote: > > > >[ Kym ] Well, Tom???? Did you ever receive an answer to your > > question (re: CWL) > > >from the moderator of ts-l? > > > > She said that if the truth were known about CWL, the foundation of the > > > > TS as a truth-seeking organization would collapse, so it is strictly > > off-limits. > > Are you serious? What she said is an oxymoron! How can one claim to be > a truth-seeking organization and then defend the hiding of a truth? How > would the truth about CWL collapse the foundation of the TS? Surely > it's more stable than that - and that makes the accusations against CWL > sound like they've been acknowledged by the "higher-ups" in the TS. > > What Joan said doesn't make any sense. Are you just jesting - trying to > get me, and perhaps others, all shook up or something? > > > Kym Many people over the years have been aware of CWL's problem, as well as his sometimes good and sometimes bad clairvoyance. Sometimes the Masters pick someone who is the best person around, not the best person. They make do. If the TS made a public and continual display of CWL, it would be ludicrous. He was, with all his good traits and foibles, someone who has to be ACCEPTED. Not necessarily believed in all things, but accepted as a HUMAN BEING, just as many other fallible Theosophists must be accepted. How about we take an honest look at the guy and move on. After all, his personality served it's role in the drama of the 1920's and he became a memory of Soul. It would be interesting to here how the Soul views the way it sees the life of CWL. It would be interesting to be see how any of our Souls view us when we pass on. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:42:43 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970725234243.00e8d9c8@mail.eden.com> At 07:20 PM 7/25/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: kymsmith@micron.net >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict >> Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 1:59 AM >> >> Tom wrote: >> >> > >[ Kym ] Well, Tom???? Did you ever receive an answer to your >> > question (re: CWL) >> > >from the moderator of ts-l? >> > >> > She said that if the truth were known about CWL, the foundation of the >> > >> > TS as a truth-seeking organization would collapse, so it is strictly >> > off-limits. >> >> Are you serious? What she said is an oxymoron! How can one claim to be >> a truth-seeking organization and then defend the hiding of a truth? How >> would the truth about CWL collapse the foundation of the TS? Surely >> it's more stable than that - and that makes the accusations against CWL >> sound like they've been acknowledged by the "higher-ups" in the TS. >> >> What Joan said doesn't make any sense. Are you just jesting - trying to >> get me, and perhaps others, all shook up or something? >> >> >> Kym > >Many people over the years have been aware of CWL's problem, >as well as his sometimes good and sometimes bad clairvoyance. >Sometimes the Masters pick someone who is the best person around, >not the best person. They make do. > >If the TS made a public and continual display of CWL, it would be >ludicrous. He was, with all his good traits and foibles, someone >who has to be ACCEPTED. Not necessarily believed in all things, >but accepted as a HUMAN BEING, just as many other fallible >Theosophists must be accepted. > >How about we take an honest look at the guy and move on. >After all, his personality served it's role in the drama of >the 1920's and he became a memory of Soul. It would be >interesting to here how the Soul views the way it sees the >life of CWL. It would be interesting to be see how any of >our Souls view us when we pass on. > >A. Safron You have said as well as I could have responded. In the final analysis, what is important is our lives and how exposure to the ideas and doctrines of Theosophy have helped us to make things better for everyone including ourselves. So long as this focus is maintained, everything falls into their right place and importance. Peace MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:45:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: ts-l Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970725032708.00e75e54@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >BTW, more than 20 years ago, I gave Jinarajadasa's book First Priciples of >Theosophy to a well known Professor dealing with General Systems Theory and >who was brought up in the Southern USA as a Baptist, and it was very >enlightening for him. His narrow training as a Baptist helped him to >appreciate Theosophical view It was very helpful to me, too - and I stil have a copy, although TS- Adyar will not reprint it. True, with hindsight, it contains errors, not least in the 'lives' descriptions, which must have been based on CWL's doubtful ESP. Even with its faults, however, it remains an excellent introduction to theosophical ideas conveniently placed in one volume. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:54:51 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: End of the Worl .... arrrrghh Message-ID: In message <970725111416_2092957376@emout04.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >If the end of the world really is coming, then there is nothing to be done >but party until it happens. > >Chuck the Heretic .. and we wll all feel pretty bad the morning after. Oh yes. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 03:53:06 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970726035306.007d5ea0@elcocomp.com> Hi Mark and all! >> Well, the way I see it - the ones who obtained their information >> independently and are in agreement must be correct. Would you disagree? > >I would note the agreement with fascination, but couldn't honestly >conclude that the information was correct. However, I do find the whole >subject extremely interesting. I'd be interested in exploring this premise a little further. If two people come up with identical information then I would think that either 1) their information was based on earthly reason and they came to the same conclusion, 2) one received information from the other or 3) they are both correct. Is there another way? > >> I've heard the name 'keepers of the white stone' mentioned before by Cayce >> in regards to Atlantis and I believe that there's a word in the Nahuatl >> language that is 'uaxactun' which I believe can be translated to be 'lord >> white stone'. Have you ever followed up on any of these? > >No, I wasn't aware of either of these. What did Cayce have to say about >the "keepers?' It seems like he was referring to a much larger stone, but I imagine the possibility exists that a symbolic smaller version might have been worn around the neck. I took the following quotes from and excellent source on EC and Atlantis: http://www.wrldnet.net/~bluapple/atlwww.cgi/1 READING: 5037-2 Entity was in Atlantis, a priestess and the keeper of the white stone or that through which many of those peoples before the first destructions in Atlantis kept their accord with the universal consciousness, through the speaking to and through those activities. (Q) Describe in detail the entity's work with the White Stone, and present urges from this. (A) This may be well implied from that indicated. The entity as the high priestess was the interpreter of the messages received through the concentration of the group upon the stone from which the oracle spoke from the realm of the saints (as would be termed today), or impressed upon those of that period - the group - the messages of hope, encouragement, endearment, and the necessity of keeping the oneness of purpose. > >> I don't know if I've been researching Atlantis for my own benefit. I >> already believe that it existed. I am deeply troubled about an incorrect >> (in my opinion) view of history for one thing and also when I see others >> going to, what I consider to be, innaccurate sources for information. > >Even with hard physical evidence our understanding of history is always >relative and incomplete. Archaeology will always be an incomplete science in my opinion and anyone who bases their view of history solely upon this will always have a distorted view. I don't know why it bothers me so much; I think it has something to do with the truth. >How do you define "correctness" of view or "accurate" sources of information, >especially with regard to deep history? I use the technique I previously mentioned - by comparison of information from independent sources and searching for understanding. I'm not sure what your concept of 'deep' is... >Historical studies all have their own fontiers of the unknown. >They blend imperceptibly into the mythic. The older I get the more >comfortable I am living with what is not known. Maybe I'm not old enough to accept this. :-) >I'm not saying we >shouldn't continually try to discover history, but realize that with >each discovery come more questions and a shifting of the boundary of the >known/unknown. History is a social construct. I think correct history could be known. It all 'boils down' to who we believe or who we trust. I've argued on another list with a Mayan archaeologist who believes the esoteric knowledge that his people wrote but not an esoteric knowledge obtained recently. Didn't the information come from the same source? > >> I just unsubscribed from another mailing list last night and this is the >> 'gist' of one of the postings on it: "Then end of the world is coming and >> nobody cares!" Well, this person had chosen to accept one of Nostradamus' >> quatrains literally (or someone's interpretation of it) about the end of >> the world and was very agitated. > >There are lots of people like that, especially now that the millenium is >upon us. They are encountering their own fear. They are feeling >alienated. It seems to me that along with those who only trust science, there are others, today, who will trust anybody who has a message from the 'other side'. It seems to me that this latter group is the most worried. > >> What does a person do? > >Loving kindness. Compassion. Wisdom. I'll try. :-) Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:40:11 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Independent and Correct? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970726044011.007c41d0@elcocomp.com> >Gisele wrote (re Blavatsky, Roerich, Bailey, Churchward, etc.): >The gist of my findings is that the >medical, psychological and spiritual advice in the readings >holds up quite well to scrutiny, but the historical and >predictive material illustrates how unreliable trance-generated >information can be. Oh...no. I've had too many arguments about this before and have learned that they are pointless. You're free to believe or disbelieve who you want. Besides, I just promised Mark that I'd try to have more loving kindness, compassion and wisdom. :-) Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 07:41:28 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... Message-ID: <199707261253.IAA03476@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Atlantis and other "weird" stuff ... > Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 10:16 AM > > In a message dated 97-07-24 18:38:05 EDT, you write: > > > "Then end of the world is coming and > >nobody cares!" Well, this person had chosen to accept one of Nostradamus' > >quatrains literally (or someone's interpretation of it) about the end of > >the world and was very agitated. What does a person do? > > > If the end of the world really is coming, then there is nothing to be done > but party until it happens. > > Chuck the Heretic Wait for the next one to begin (party and all). A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 07:55:21 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: <199707261253.IAA03482@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Going down ... > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 10:52 PM > > At 08:49 PM 7/23/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote on ti-l: > > > >I heard today that the total membership of the TS in England is now > >below 1,000. Last year it was 1,313. > > > >This is a minimum drop of 24% on the year. > > >>>clip<<< > > >In other words, do we think that the study of the occult or the > >theosophical has within it nothing intrinsically at fault, but that the > >attempt to organise and calssify it *has* - especially when the > >organisation appears to have a 'hidden agenda'? Even though this can be > >argued to be an appearance only, and not necessarily a fact? > > > MKRamadoss My husgand and were talking last night about the TS IRC, which we was on Sunday morning, perhaps when everyone is sleeping in or going to church(!). The TS rigagmorole is really based on a very high and occult intelligence. In the many lists and newsgroups I've been on, probably 0.1% are interested in Theosophy. Let's face it, most people want to chat and talk about the last political thing, the weather, their family and their soap operas, personal and televised. I realized the intellegencia is going to skewer me and others will say "humanity (sigh) just has to catch up with us Theosophists). Balderdash! If they are dropping like flies now, there won't be any members by 2025. They will be a party of 12 sitting in a coffee shop wondering where it all went. Is there any way that everyday life with its problems can be combined with the Divine Wisdom? Is it possible that the ivory towers types can walk down to earth and the earthy types can use all that intelligence to solve their everyday problems? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 08:34:58 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970726133458.00d633bc@mail.eden.com> At 08:53 AM 7/26/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: > > >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Going down ... >> Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 10:52 PM >> >> At 08:49 PM 7/23/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote on ti-l: >> > >> >I heard today that the total membership of the TS in England is now >> >below 1,000. Last year it was 1,313. >> > >> >This is a minimum drop of 24% on the year. >> >> >>>clip<<< >> >> >In other words, do we think that the study of the occult or the >> >theosophical has within it nothing intrinsically at fault, but that the >> >attempt to organise and calssify it *has* - especially when the >> >organisation appears to have a 'hidden agenda'? Even though this can be >> >argued to be an appearance only, and not necessarily a fact? >> > >> MKRamadoss > >My husgand and were talking last night about the TS IRC, which we >was on Sunday morning, perhaps when >everyone is sleeping in or going to church(!). The TS rigagmorole >is really based on a very high and occult intelligence. In the many >lists and newsgroups I've been on, probably 0.1% are interested in >Theosophy. Let's face it, most people want to chat and talk about >the last political thing, the weather, their family and their soap >operas, personal and televised. > >I realized the intellegencia is going to skewer me and others will >say "humanity (sigh) just has to catch up with us Theosophists). >Balderdash! If they are dropping like flies now, there won't be >any members by 2025. They will be a party of 12 sitting in >a coffee shop wondering where it all went. > >Is there any way that everyday life with its problems can be >combined with the Divine Wisdom? Is it possible that the >ivory towers types can walk down to earth and the earthy >types can use all that intelligence to solve their everyday >problems? > >A. Safron You have raised some real concerns that we all share. Even in the days of the Founders, when all the classical writings were produced, they kept their feet firmly on the ground. Even when Annie Besant took over the leadership, she also kept her feet firmly on the ground. What is missing is IMHO the lack of involvment in practical physical level activities in the communities members live. Failing to maintain this connection, inevitably leads to deterioration in the physical level. May be we are all guilty of it and may be we are all doing tremendous work at higher levels. I dont know. If the current trend continues, the next century may be the last one for the current incarnation of Theosophical Society as we know it even though the work will continue via other organizations or non-organizations. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:08:27 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970726190827.00badcd4@mail.eden.com> In the recent days, I have had the interesting experience of watching the current trend on the question of publications in the paper version versus the publication in the cyberspace. Two instances I am currently aware where an attempt was made to get the print version put on the cyberspace. In both cases those involved in the production of the paper version has either not willing to put it on the Internet or have not been very responsive to the suggestion, even though in real terms the potential for distribution is enormous and is likely to be appreciated by large numbers especially in the former East European countries where current economic situation is very tight, but they have access to Internet. While the paper publishers have valid economic reasons, it is interesting to watch the above instances. One of the questions that is going to arise is how future publishers are going to handle the Internet phenomenon where there is not much of current opportunities to make money like selling copies of hard copy publication. But on the other hand, the speed with which Internet is expanding is mind boggling and there is no end in sight. So this seems to present an unique opportunity for non copyright materials having a good chance of distribution via Internet. Most of the Theosophical Classics fall in this category. Already TUP and others have made some of the classics available on the net. I see soon all classics being available on the net. On the other hand this may kill the publishing industry which had good sales of these classics. Another thought occurs to me. Is it possible that when HPB and others took great trouble in producing the classics in long hand, those Powers behind her foresaw the coming of Internet and timed the classics in such a way that the copyright expired when the time was ripe for Internet to grow and have an impact on the world. Who can tell. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:37:10 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Egyptian 'djed' Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726133710.0068a778@pacbell.net> > >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 01:05:44 -0600 >From: Gisele >To: theos-l@vnet.net >Subject: Re: Egyptian 'djed' >Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970724010544.007c8e30@elcocomp.com> > > >Thank-you very much, Lynn for your interesting observations regarding the >objects being supported by that 'djed' figure. I passed your comments on >to Michael Mandeville (which he was pleased to receive). He asked if you >were interested in doing a 'circuit analysis' (which, if you were willing, >he would add to that page). I don't know what would be involved in doing >this, but don't feel obligated because I know I kind of nudged you to go >see his collection (seeing that you found so much symbolism in the owl). :-) Hi Gisele, I'm sorry it took me so long to respond. I was having terrible mail problems on AOL for several days and changed ISPs. Then it was a thing of playing "Guess the syntex" with the listproc to retrieve missed digests from the archives due to the murky output from the HELP command I sent the listproc. (The listproc HELP file could use a Rosetta stone for us Unix-challenged folks.) Anyway, I'm back now. ;-D Sure, I'll try to trace the circuit in that picture, however, I don't know if I'll come up with anything more lucid than Michael Mandeville already wrote about it. :-) > > From what I've been able to obtain from Steiner [Egyptian Myths and >Mysteries] is that the Uraeus on the forehead of the Kings represented >power. The power that each king obtained was portions of the 'folk soul' >which he was able to take into himself after extinguishing part of his >astral and etheric bodies. Eeek! This sounds almost like a form of "occult cannibalism". :-) Now, by Uraeus, do you mean the cobra and vulture worn by the pharoahs? > >This may seem far-fetched but could this picture be a symbolic >representation of this (if the Egyptians associated snakes with power)? I understood from reading that the power represented by the snakes in the picture was power in the form of electrical or similar energy. Those long "bulbs" enclosing them look so much like glass envelopes for some sort of electrical tubes that it drives me up the wall! :-) However, your interpretation of it may not be far-fetched at all. IMHO, if we consider similar things like the "power" of the Ark of the Covenant which has been suggested to be a powerful electrical capacitor, if constructed according to the description given in the Bible, yet believed by the people as the power of God, it's not far-fetched at all. There may be both symbolic and real power operating here and with the djed pillar representation. Yet another layer of meaning could be electrical power symbolizing the temporal power of the pharoah corresponding to yet another layer of spiritual or occult power (especially considering that pharoahs were supposed to be gods) in a multi-shelled representation of the law of correspondences. Personally, I do believe that electro-magnetic energy is a physical correspondence to an occult law of attraction with a possible transition zone between the inner and outer planes as lying in the realm of quantum mechanics or quantum electrodynamics. Wow, I hope that didn't sound like mere babbling. :-) >Are you or anyone else familiar with 'folk souls' (apparantly a real >etheric form)? This is the first time I've heard of the term. I'm intrigued! Could you tell us more about them? Do the 4 layers on the 'djed' mean anything to you in >regards to this kind of power or even power like electricity? Is there any >significance to the number of layers to Eastern towers? Incidently the >word in Japanese for tower is 'to' and the hieroglyphic symbols seems to >represent a similar phonetic value. Sometimes two of these are shown in a >row as if to make the word, 'toto' which I've seen mentioned in regards to >Mantavaras. (I knew I'd get back to Theosophy sooner or later) :-) "To" or "Toto" is also intriguingly close to "totem" poles, also depicted as towers. But I may be coming up with a mere coincidence here. :-) Off the top of my head, I don't know of a specific correspondence between the number four and anything dealing with electricity except as perhaps alternating positive and negative plates within a battery. Every time I try to think of this with respect to electricity, I keep coming up with pairs of things, the number two. I have to think more about that one. :-) However, I've understood the number four as representing a concretization or externalization of some inner principle. Astrologically, it represents the square aspect, a 90 degree angular relationship between planets. It is one of the most powerful energies in a horoscope and is considered to be quite challenging. (Having lived with a Moon squaring a Mars-Uranus conjunction all my life, I agree.) The respective energies represented by the planets involved in the square tend to insist on being made manifest on the physical plane, however the nature of the dynamic tension existing between the energies presents a considerable challenge to the individual who has to wield them. Perhaps the relationship between four, toto, and manvantaras has to do with the cyclic "outbreathing" of Logos or the Absolute (or Whomever) and the point at which all is brought into manifestion. I'm also considering the idea that four is the midpoint of the number seven, which is so important symbolically. So it seems to me to represent a fulcrum or pivotal point in the grand cycle of things. You've brought up some fascinating food for thought, Gisele! I love chatting with you! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 21:48:59 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: End of the World? Message-ID: If the end of the world really is coming, then there is nothing to be done >but party until it happens. > >Chuck the Heretic . and we wll all feel pretty bad the morning after. Oh yes. Alan Keith: Or the Yuga after and the Manvantara after. The karmic band plays on and on and we pay the piper, don't we? Namaste Keith Price ` From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 21:52:15 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Whose End of the World? Message-ID: There seems to be several versions of the end of time or this cycle:\ 1) Revelation of St. John in the Bible 2) Nostradamus 3) Mayan 4) Hindu 5) Jainist 6) Egyptian It seems that eschatology is required for a really good religious system. Theosophy seems to be endlessly openended given us ever larger and more complex cycles ...... stop worry and PARTYING.... there is no end! Namasate Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 97 21:58:44 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: What survives after death? Message-ID: American spiritualism was the real basis of the movement we call theosophy or at least its prime motivator. After the civil war, may wanted to contact the dead through the seance room. Blavatsky said that what was contacted was a shell an amoral energy draining entity at best and should be left alone. I have had and intuition of the sutratma - the string of lives, before I read anything about it. This string may not really be individual. I think the vehicles, and jewels in Indra's nets are shuffled much more than we realize. Like the gene pool, the lives and karmic assets - debts are dealt out as in a lottery far more than theosophists want to believe. That is why you can get somebody like CWL. He may have been very advanced on the intuitional/buddhic level, but very lagging behind on the astral/sexual level. And let he who is without karmic debts throw the skandha! Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:08:40 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Whose End of the World? Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970726150840.006a3450@pacbell.net> At 05:56 PM 7/26/97 -0400, Keith wrote: > >It seems that eschatology is required for a really good religious system. >Theosophy seems to be endlessly openended given us ever larger and more >complex cycles ...... stop worry and PARTYING.... there is no end! Obviously you don't live on the San Andreas Fault. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 18:09:17 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: What survives after death? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970726230917.00ea2708@mail.eden.com> At 06:02 PM 7/26/97 -0400, JOSEPH PRICE wrote: >American spiritualism was the real basis of the movement we call theosophy or >at least its prime motivator. After the civil war, may wanted to contact the >dead through the seance room. Blavatsky said that what was contacted was a >shell an amoral energy draining entity at best and should be left alone. > >I have had and intuition of the sutratma - the string of lives, before I read >anything about it. This string may not really be individual. I think the >vehicles, and jewels in Indra's nets are shuffled much more than we realize. >Like the gene pool, the lives and karmic assets - debts are dealt out as in a >lottery far more than theosophists want to believe. > >That is why you can get somebody like CWL. He may have been very advanced on >the intuitional/buddhic level, but very lagging behind on the astral/sexual >level. And let he who is without karmic debts throw the skandha! > >Namaste >Keith Price > Some times I wonder if we should not "Let Dead bury the Dead" since we all have so much problems in living our day to day lives. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:23:08 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict Message-ID: <199707270036.UAA06078@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict > Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 7:39 AM > > Kym wrote, unbelievably: > > >Tom wrote: > > >> >[ Kym ] Well, Tom???? Did you ever receive an answer to your > >> >question (re: CWL) from the moderator of ts-l? > > >> She said that if the truth were known about CWL, the foundation of the > >> TS as a truth-seeking organization would collapse, so it is strictly > >> off-limits. > > >Are you serious? What she said is an oxymoron! > > You're so smart! > > >What Joan said doesn't make any sense. Are you just jesting - trying to > >get me, and perhaps others, all shook up or something? > > It was what you wanted to hear, and you're still complaining! WOMEN!! > Sheesh. > > She said she'd get back to me on it, and I haven't heard from her. > They are having a convention, so she's busy. Is that better? Since when did you getting so fucking irritable? Must have been in my absence that you became even more of jerk that you already were. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:30:49 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Ego as Problem or Solution ? Flashlight or Selfish Hunger Message-ID: <199707270036.UAA06089@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Ego as Problem or Solution ? Flashlight or Selfish Hunger > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 5:06 PM > > YOUNG: Well, I think the ego is essential, and it ultimately can > flower into what you could call, what Jung calls, the personality -- you have > these terrific personalities like movie stars and so on, after you've evolved > sufficiently. > I think I would expand the category of terrific personalties to other qualities and accomplishments. Healers, electronic experts, woodworkers, chefs, writers, designers, politicians, sportsmen, musicians and I could probably go on forever. All these personatilites can achieve a perfection and skill down through the lives, eventually showing that skill in one particular life. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:38:31 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Still connected Message-ID: <199707270036.UAA06095@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Mark Kusek > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Still connected > Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 12:00 AM > > > Have to digest the concept of Masters and Atlantis > > and all the other "wierd" stuff. > > Don't forget, one day there'll be legends of us and people will > romantically and mythologize us. Fantasized about what we were like and > project all there hope into visions of us .... > > Now look around you. > Well, I want to be a warrior princess. Battling car accidents with my insurance card and painting my kitchen with my trusty roller. Weather can brutal in Chicago. Wear you down coat in Chicago under that scabbord and trust only in your central air in the summer. Yes, I live with 4 fierce beasts, who have sharp teeth and razor claws. I keep them under control by feeding them cat food on a regular basis. And keeping the litter box clean. (Dr. Bain will understand) A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:19:09 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Still connected Message-ID: <1frbsSANIq2zEwi+@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199707270036.UAA06095@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >(Dr. Bain will understand) Of course. Dr. Bain From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:16:51 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Yea verily Message-ID: <8$4ZUOADGq2zEwhH@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >And let he who is without karmic debts throw the skandha! Old "catholic" joke: Jesus: Whoever is without sin, let them cast the first stone. [Pauses meaningfully to look at assembled gathering] Jesus: Mother! Put that down! Frying in hell, Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 21:50:18 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Inner vs Outer Message-ID: <199707270210.WAA17731@NetGSI.com> >Please remember that Cayce explicitly says the akashic records >are not some absolute storehouse of truth in some objective >location somewhere. He says quite clearly that they are *in >the persons* for whom he does the readings. It's their minds >and souls he's reading, not some objectively accurate source of >truth. Paul, I know what you mean here, but pray tell me what is the difference between a thing that is "in the mind" (ie., inner or subjective) and a thing that exists on the mental plane (i.e., outer or objective but on an inner plane)? To read the askashic records in a person's mind or on the mental plane is only a difference in semantics. Both imply the same thing, at least to me. Jerry S. Member TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 02:05:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: In message <199707261253.IAA03482@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >Is it possible that the >ivory towers types can walk down to earth and the earthy >types can use all that intelligence to solve their everyday >problems? Nope. Shall we open our own coffe shop? Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:10:18 -0600 From: Gisele Subject: Re: Egyptian 'djed' Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970727031018.007ed490@elcocomp.com> Hi Lynn! Thanks for the help... and sorry about your ISP problems. >> >> From what I've been able to obtain from Steiner [Egyptian Myths and >>Mysteries] is that the Uraeus on the forehead of the Kings represented >>power. The power that each king obtained was portions of the 'folk soul' >>which he was able to take into himself after extinguishing part of his >>astral and etheric bodies. > >Eeek! This sounds almost like a form of "occult cannibalism". :-) Now, by >Uraeus, do you mean the cobra and vulture worn by the pharoahs? Haha... Yes, the cobra. I didn't realize that the pharoahs wore a 'vulture', however, according to Steiner, the vulture symbolizes the 'astral'... >> >>This may seem far-fetched but could this picture be a symbolic >>representation of this (if the Egyptians associated snakes with power)? > >I understood from reading that the power represented by the snakes in the >picture was power in the form of electrical or similar energy. Those long >"bulbs" enclosing them look so much like glass envelopes for some sort of >electrical tubes that it drives me up the wall! :-) It's driving me up a wall too. You just can't go pick up a book and read about it either. :-) >Personally, I do believe that electro-magnetic energy is a physical >correspondence to an occult law of attraction with a possible transition >zone between the inner and outer planes as lying in the realm of quantum >mechanics or quantum electrodynamics. Wow, I hope that didn't sound like >mere babbling. :-) What was that again? :-) > >>Are you or anyone else familiar with 'folk souls' (apparantly a real >>etheric form)? > >This is the first time I've heard of the term. I'm intrigued! Could you >tell us more about them? I was hoping you could tell me; I'm the newcomer here. :-) However, I can write out what I have on it.... let's see ... 'folk music'...oh, yes... here we go - 'folk souls'. According to Steiner (from Egyptian Myths and Mysteries): "If we think of the single individuals, the single egos, as little circles, for external physical observation they will be separate beings. But one who observes these single individualities spiritually sees them as though embedded in an etheric cloud, and this is the incorporation of the folk-soul. If the single person thinks, feels, and wills something, he radiates his feelings and thoughts into the common folk-soul. This is colored by his radiations, and the folk-soul becomes permeated by the thoughts and feelings of the single persons." When I first read about these 'folk souls', I didn't think much of it. But since I've come on the internet, I find myself communicating most with people who live in one particular corner of America. Why? > Incidently the >>word in Japanese for tower is 'to' and the hieroglyphic symbols seems to >>represent a similar phonetic value. Sometimes two of these are shown in a >>row as if to make the word, 'toto' which I've seen mentioned in regards to >>Mantavaras. (I knew I'd get back to Theosophy sooner or later) :-) > >"To" or "Toto" is also intriguingly close to "totem" poles, also depicted >as towers. But I may be coming up with a mere coincidence here. :-) Very good!!! I hadn't thought of that. Thank-you. I've gathered (from Steiner again) that the Egyptians saw themselves as being judged by their 42 ancestors and for this reason, they felt that they had to improve on whatever had been passed down to them. Therefore, ancestors were very important to them as well as were the ancestors of the native Americans. >Off the >top of my head, I don't know of a specific correspondence between the >number four and anything dealing with electricity except as perhaps >alternating positive and negative plates within a battery. I know absolutely nothing about batteries, but something about what you said feels 'right' to me. (Maybe it has something to do with all those mornings I woke up thinking about Egypt). Now what would be required is a connection between batteries and inheritance because this 'djed pillar' seems to appear in two different contexes. Not an easy task - but! I suspect that the answer lies again in Steiner's book: "It would be his [an Egyptian's] particular concern that the folk soul should become as strong as possible, rich in good forces, and that it should not be diminished. The Egyptian initiates could not reckon with what man possessed through blood-relationship. But what the forefathers had accumulated as spiritual riches, was to become the property of the individual soul.... he had to continue working on what his fathers had created." Could energy and spiritual riches have an analogical relationship with the Egyptians? (although I have no idea if spiritual riches were or can be 'passed down') >You've brought up some fascinating food for >thought, Gisele! I love chatting with you! Thank-you! I finally feel like I'm making some progress (and we'll talk about astrology some day. That's another fascinating topic.) :-) Gisele From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:02:24 -0600 From: dslusser Subject: Re: Battle - Paper vs Cyber Message-ID: <33DB1CB0.9DC@indra.com> theos-l@vnet.net wrote: > > Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:08:27 -0500 > From: M K Ramadoss > To: theos-l@vnet.net > Subject: Battle between paper and cyber version > Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970726190827.00badcd4@mail.eden.com> > > In the recent days, I have had the interesting experience of watching the > current trend on the question of publications in the paper version versus > the publication in the cyberspace. > > Two instances I am currently aware where an attempt was made to get the > print version put on the cyberspace. In both cases those involved in the > production of the paper version has either not willing to put it on the > Internet or have not been very responsive to the suggestion, even though in > real terms the potential for distribution is enormous and is likely to be > appreciated by large numbers especially in the former East European > countries where current economic situation is very tight, but they have > access to Internet. Hey there! If you're referring to the HCT as one of the examples -- I beg to differ. If my recollection is correct, I contributed several uploads from back issues which were not used/posted. In addition, I uploaded the listing of the contents of back issues 1986 to 1996 -- to which I received no response in the form of requests. Correct me if I am wrong. I have my hands full getting the HCT out every month on schedule, but I can find time to post back issues by request. Eldon Tucker has offered to help me set up a Web Page for the HCT -- and this I haven't had time for as yet. I'm willing -- so where do we go from here? I'd be delighted to send the HCT to my overseas subscribers via e-mail Yesterday I sent 13 copies of the july issue by first class Airmail to subscribers in Australia, England, Wales, Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Costa Rica & Philippines --mostly at my own out of pocket expense. The postage ran from $1.09 to $1.55 per copy. This was in addition to about 87 copies at 2nd class for $21 Any help in making it happen will be appreciated. dslusser --ed HCT While the paper publishers have valid economic reasons, > it is interesting to watch the above instances. > > One of the questions that is going to arise is how future publishers are > going to handle the Internet phenomenon where there is not much of current > opportunities to make money like selling copies of hard copy publication. Making money ??????? The HCT has never broken even $$ wise. It is my contribution to the movement. The $9 subscription price barely covers the cost of printing and postage to the individual subscriber. Nearly half of the subscriptions are free-gratis. Like David Keene, I support this effort on a retirement income. > But on the other hand, the speed with which Internet is expanding is mind > boggling and there is no end in sight. > > So this seems to present an unique opportunity for non copyright materials > having a good chance of distribution via Internet. Most of the Theosophical > Classics fall in this category. Already TUP and others have made some of the > classics available on the net. I see soon all classics being available on > the net. On the other hand this may kill the publishing industry which had > good sales of these classics. > > Another thought occurs to me. Is it possible that when HPB and others took > great trouble in producing the classics in long hand, those Powers behind > her foresaw the coming of Internet and timed the classics in such a way that > the copyright expired when the time was ripe for Internet to grow and have > an impact on the world. Who can tell. > > .........doss > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:42:08 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199707271239.IAA20699@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Battle between paper and cyber version > Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 2:14 PM > > > Two instances I am currently aware where an attempt was made to get the > print version put on the cyberspace. In both cases those involved in the > production of the paper version has either not willing to put it on the > Internet or have not been very responsive to the suggestion, even though in > real terms the potential for distribution is enormous and is likely to be > appreciated by large numbers especially in the former East European > countries where current economic situation is very tight, but they have > access to Internet. While the paper publishers have valid economic reasons, > it is interesting to watch the above instances. > > One of the questions that is going to arise is how future publishers are > going to handle the Internet phenomenon where there is not much of current > opportunities to make money like selling copies of hard copy publication. > But on the other hand, the speed with which Internet is expanding is mind > boggling and there is no end in sight. > The question of publishing on the Internet is still being answered. However, with the cost of paper and printing rising, plus postage, it is just a matter of time before some alternative has to become available. Gnosis magazine is in trouble again, being ripped off by one of its distributions. Although the mag is not my cup of tea, I regret that a specialty publication may go down. If you go to the local supermarket and see that those racks and racks of glamourous bullshit (Soap Opera Hair) trash mags, you can see a lot of waste that is contributing to the astral illusion that affects humanity. We are not all models or all interested in improving our sex lives, nor care about hot celebrities or the latest movie star, who in reality, is just like you and me, maybe even a little stranger. We need better ideas for magazines and publications, so that the bubble-headed publications are not the only ones available to us. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 16:05:35 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Folk souls, group souls, and faeries Message-ID: I think it was GISELE writing: If we think of the single individuals, the single egos, as little circles, for external physical observation they will be separate beings. But one who observes these single individualities spiritually sees them as though embedded in an etheric cloud, and this is the incorporation of the folk-soul. If the single person thinks, feels, and wills something, he radiates his feelings and thoughts into the common folk-soul. This is colored by his radiations, and the folk-soul becomes permeated by the thoughts and feelings of the single persons." When I first read about these 'folk souls', I didn't think much of it. But since I've come on the internet, I find myself communicating most with people who live in one particular corner of America. Why? Keith: Oh, my dear, you are really getting into some heresy here!!! :0) You may have read Geoffrey Hodgson and others who were once tangentially very popular, I mean, by certain small groups within theosophy. The idea of human group soul is anathema to the true believers, let me tell you. And if you can't guess I am NOT a true believer, only a humble seeker and very open-minded at this point of the the Manvantara. Anyway, as you may know, animals have group souls, people have strictly individual karma (HA!). Folk souls sound racist (to those people who are alway looking for it and are ready to shout racist or sexist when somenone doesn't agree witht THEM) in the since that we have the little folk of Ireland, the trolls of Germany, the nixies of Scandanavia (I may not be getting this right), and the Indian I mean Native American totem animals etc.... These represent archetypal forms solidifies and codified in folklore which we must do away with in the name of multi-cultutalism and come up with totally fictitious celebrations like Kwanza which the Aficans no nothing about! Anyway G Hodgson researched far and wide for faries, drew them (or had them drawn) and was on quite good terms with the spirit of the Rose Quartz, he tells us. There are fire spirits (salamanders) around volcanoes doing their thing soulfully of course. The eagle and the turkey are the totems for America and carry I group spirit. The turkey (Franklin's favorite) is so stupid it will drown itself in the rain, by standing open-mouthed. I think the turkey archetype is on the ascendent today in America, wouldn't you say! Anyway, I talk to faeries every chance I get :) Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 16:12:56 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Djed Clamp it Message-ID: Haha... Yes, the cobra. I didn't realize that the pharoahs wore a 'vulture', however, according to Steiner, the vulture symbolizes the 'astral'... >> >>This may seem far-fetched but could this picture be a symbolic >>representation of this (if the Egyptians associated snakes with power)? > >I understood from reading that the power represented by the snakes in the >picture was power in the form of electrical or similar energy. Those long >"bulbs" enclosing them look so much like glass envelopes for some sort of >electrical tubes that it drives me up the wall! :-) Keith: Yes, I thing the snakes, as symbols or RODS OF POWER, where very common my the Magi of old. I intuit that these bulbs and snake like clamps were used to light the interior of the tombs for ceremonies of death and rebirth as the kingdoms must gone on after the Pharoh is gone. All the gods were invoked and the elite took the positions to bring down the powers of the individual gods. This is why the One GOd idea of Ankanaten was not so popular, maybe. It was not as fun as dressing up and perforning these religious/magical ceremonies. However, there is a great web site on all this in a more serious way of course. You can get to through the Art Bell site with pictures and everything. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 97 16:23:12 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Put down that stone! Message-ID: writes >And let he who is without karmic debts throw the skandha! Old "catholic" joke: Jesus: Whoever is without sin, let them cast the first stone. [Pauses meaningfully to look at assembled gathering] Jesus: Mother! Put that down! Frying in hell, Alan :-) Keith: Too funny! But on target. I think some people (including theosophists) really hold on to the idea of people being all good or all bad. If we have seven levels, we have a pretty good chance of being crazy mixed up kids who later become adults with high class neurotic conflicts. Blavatsky was no saint, so why should we have expected CWL to be one. Well, I think he may have presented himself as one, in the sense of being the head, more or less, of the Liberal Catholic Church, a pope thing. Here in Texas there is a scandal concerning a Roman Catholic preist who molested boys during a long career. One boy committed suicide, so there is nothing funny about it. The Church heirarchy covered up for him for decades. The families sued the Church for over 100 million. THe Church will appeal of course, it is the American way. What CWL and others like him do can never be excused. But we can seperate the man from his work even if he was very pretentious in his writings and dangerous in his personal life to youth. There are hells, here on earth. We return to them life after life, don't we. I like the Buddhist idea of hot and cold hells. Let the punishment fit the crime! Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:06:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <970727130653_507421469@emout08.mail.aol.com> Doss, No publisher in his right mind is going to put something on the internet as long as it can sell in print. The moment it goes online, the copyright is an unenforceable dead letter and even the material is in public domain, there is no rational economic incentive to do so. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:18:07 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Whose End of the World? Message-ID: <199707271818.LAA25231@palrel3.hp.com> "JOSEPH PRICE" wrote: > There seems to be several versions of the end of time or this cycle:\ > > 1) Revelation of St. John in the Bible > 2) Nostradamus > 3) Mayan > 4) Hindu > 5) Jainist > 6) Egyptian > > It seems that eschatology is required for a really good religious system. > Theosophy seems to be endlessly openended given us ever larger and more > complex cycles ...... stop worry and PARTYING.... there is no end! There may be no end, but if we don't utilize the energies of this cycle, there may be long delays for meeting the upward pull of the next cycle. Speaking of millenium cycles, Pluto will be moving outside the orbit of Neptune in 1999. Ann Ree Colton thought this would be a pivotal time. For the astrologers out there: Has anyone else written about the significance of this astrological event? No one on the astrology list I once subscribed to said much about it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:27:08 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970727182708.00e98c0c@mail.eden.com> At 01:07 PM 7/27/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >Doss, > >No publisher in his right mind is going to put something on the internet as >long as it can sell in print. The moment it goes online, the copyright is an >unenforceable dead letter and even the material is in public domain, there is >no rational economic incentive to do so. > >Chuck the Heretic > I agree. But McGraw Hill is having a pilot program in which they are putting a couple of their computer publications on-line 3 months before the hard copy is going to be available. This whole issue of Internet publication has to be evolve and how it is going to happen I do not know. On the other hand, for unknown and rookie writers who cannot find a publisher or cannot afford to self publish print version, Internet publication may be *the* only means of publishing. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:50:09 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle - Paper vs Cyber Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970727185009.00e94860@mail.eden.com> Dear Slusser: Glad to see your detailed response. Indeed HCT is one of the two I had in mind when I posted the msg. The other one is a publication from Italy which deals with a non-theosophical topic. On the economic front, the publishing cost is a critical issue when publishing in print media and added to that is the cost of distribution by mail or other means. Both costs are bound to rise. In addition, any publication which does not have a large circulation, the overhead costs are significant and critical and rising. This whole issue of Paper vs Cyber publication is evolving and no one can forsee what future is in store. On the other hand, with rookie authors who cannot find a publisher or cannot afford to self publish in print media, Internet is perhaps the only choice. Like shareware, it is quite possible that those who feel a benefit from the material may come forth to support the author. I donot know if this is going to work in the case of Internet published materials. At 04:02 AM 7/27/97 -0600, dslusser wrote: >theos-l@vnet.net wrote: >> >> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:08:27 -0500 >> From: M K Ramadoss >> To: theos-l@vnet.net >> Subject: Battle between paper and cyber version >> Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970726190827.00badcd4@mail.eden.com> >> >> In the recent days, I have had the interesting experience of watching the >> current trend on the question of publications in the paper version versus >> the publication in the cyberspace. >> >> Two instances I am currently aware where an attempt was made to get the >> print version put on the cyberspace. In both cases those involved in the >> production of the paper version has either not willing to put it on the >> Internet or have not been very responsive to the suggestion, even though in >> real terms the potential for distribution is enormous and is likely to be >> appreciated by large numbers especially in the former East European >> countries where current economic situation is very tight, but they have >> access to Internet. > >Hey there! If you're referring to the HCT as one of the examples -- I >beg to differ. If my recollection is correct, I contributed several >uploads from back issues which were not used/posted. In addition, I I thought everything that you sent me were posted here. Is there something that you sent to me did not get posted? If so can you re e-mail me and I can post it. You can also post it directly if you wish to do so. The only limitation on theos-l is that each e-mail material has a limit of 20K so longer files have to be split into several smaller pieces each less than 20K. Also are there any material that you tried to post directly that did not get used/posted. If so we may want to investigate what the technical problem is there, because everything I have ever posted got distributed to all subscribers. >uploaded the listing of the contents of back issues 1986 to 1996 -- to >which I received no response in the form of requests. Correct me if I >am wrong. I have my hands full getting the HCT out every month on >schedule, but I can find time to post back issues by request. > I understand that your hands are full. If I can be of any help in posting any material, please let me know. I will provide all the help I can. >Eldon Tucker has offered to help me set up a Web Page for the HCT -- >and this I haven't had time for as yet. I'm willing -- so where do we >go from here? > One of the suggestions that came up in the other magazine from Italy was to convert the files into Adobe Acrobat PDF file which are very compact and is widely used and both PCs and Apple Computers can access them with no problem. We can also see how the back issues can be archived at theos-xxxx site for retrieval. I am not a techie and we need to get the help of others who are upto speed on these matters. >I'd be delighted to send the HCT to my overseas subscribers via e-mail >Yesterday I sent 13 copies of the july issue by first class Airmail to >subscribers in Australia, England, Wales, Germany, France, Netherlands, >Belgium, Costa Rica & Philippines --mostly at my own out of pocket >expense. The postage ran from $1.09 to $1.55 per copy. This was in >addition to about 87 copies at 2nd class for $21 > >Any help in making it happen will be appreciated. dslusser --ed HCT > Since overseas shipping is quite expensive, some means of electronic distribution to overseas subscribers can perhaps help. If anyone else has any ideas, let us hear and make HCT available to more readers around the world. >While the paper publishers have valid economic reasons, >> it is interesting to watch the above instances. >> >> One of the questions that is going to arise is how future publishers are >> going to handle the Internet phenomenon where there is not much of current >> opportunities to make money like selling copies of hard copy publication. > See my comments on the economic issue above. In addition, there is a trial going on by a large book publisher who is going to put a couple of books on line 3 months before the hard copy becomes available. We will have to wait and see. >Making money ??????? The HCT has never broken even $$ wise. It is my >contribution to the movement. The $9 subscription price barely covers >the cost of printing and postage to the individual subscriber. Nearly >half of the subscriptions are free-gratis. > >Like David Keene, I support this effort on a retirement income. Glad to know about your efforts and I am sure everone is very appreciative of what you have been doing for the movement. MKRamadoss > >> But on the other hand, the speed with which Internet is expanding is mind >> boggling and there is no end in sight. >> >> So this seems to present an unique opportunity for non copyright materials >> having a good chance of distribution via Internet. Most of the Theosophical >> Classics fall in this category. Already TUP and others have made some of the >> classics available on the net. I see soon all classics being available on >> the net. On the other hand this may kill the publishing industry which had >> good sales of these classics. >> >> Another thought occurs to me. Is it possible that when HPB and others took >> great trouble in producing the classics in long hand, those Powers behind >> her foresaw the coming of Internet and timed the classics in such a way that >> the copyright expired when the time was ripe for Internet to grow and have >> an impact on the world. Who can tell. >> >> .........doss >> > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:04:00 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970727190400.00d44d48@mail.eden.com> At 08:40 AM 7/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Battle between paper and cyber version >> Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 2:14 PM >> >> >> Two instances I am currently aware where an attempt was made to get the >> print version put on the cyberspace. In both cases those involved in the >> production of the paper version has either not willing to put it on the >> Internet or have not been very responsive to the suggestion, even though in >> real terms the potential for distribution is enormous and is likely to be >> appreciated by large numbers especially in the former East European >> countries where current economic situation is very tight, but they have >> access to Internet. While the paper publishers have valid economic reasons, >> it is interesting to watch the above instances. >> >> One of the questions that is going to arise is how future publishers are >> going to handle the Internet phenomenon where there is not much of current >> opportunities to make money like selling copies of hard copy publication. >> But on the other hand, the speed with which Internet is expanding is mind >> boggling and there is no end in sight. >> > >The question of publishing on the Internet is still being answered. >However, with the cost of paper and printing rising, plus postage, it is >just a matter of time before some alternative has to become available. >Gnosis magazine is in trouble again, being ripped off by one of its >distributions. Although the mag is not my cup of tea, I regret that a >specialty publication may go down. > >If you go to the local supermarket and see that those racks >and racks of glamourous bullshit (Soap Opera Hair) trash mags, you can see >a lot of waste that is contributing to the astral illusion that affects >humanity. We are not all models or all interested in improving our sex lives, >nor care about hot celebrities or the latest movie star, who in reality, >is just like you and me, maybe even a little stranger. > >We need better ideas for magazines and publications, so that the >bubble-headed publications are not the only ones available to us. > >A. Safron > > I agree. The rising cost of paper and distribution is going to affect the future of publishing industry. All those glamorous magazines you see in super market shelves are there because a lot of people like to buy them and use them as printed material is very convenient to handle. On the other hand, the speed of distribution and the low cost of publication on Internet is going to pickup speed and is going to change the publishing landscape in the years to come. It would be interesting to watch the developments. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:13:09 -0400 From: Annette Rivington Subject: Re: On: Science and Religion (and Philosophy) Message-ID: <33DBABD4.6B0D4C5@globalserve.net> > ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) wrote: > > Does it appear that we could meld or synthesize the three realms > in the > name of "Completeness" ? Any thoughts ? > }*-*{ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Many thanks for the definitions. I like them. Isn't the above what we are all trying to do and finding it an onerous task? Or do you mean that Society could try to do this, pragmatically? I'm not well read, lately that is, but I seem to remember reading that the motivation of the previous round of scientists (approx.17th & 18th Centuries) was more that of religion/philosophy (and sometimes downright alchemy). What ended up as Science (the How), started out as their personal ways of seeking their answers to the Why, by which they hoped to find the "Truth". I often stop and remind myself that their seeking led to their "children's" "Science" which evolved into their "grandchildren's" Technology and a whole (new) way of life for a whole mess of (reluctant) people. Of course we could "meld" the three very simply. All education would be about one subject only - "The search for Truth". One could not graduate in Economics or Chemistry or Sociology, as studying these parts of knowledge would be very incomplete. In fact, one could not graduate at all. That would at least be a start, wouldn't it? Everyone would participate in a method of primary and secondary education to learn the basic life skills, history of the race, the basics of the what, where, who and how, languages for communication, developing the imagination, meditation, freeing the spirit within, and most importantly, individual discovery of that talent or skill one would bring to the world community, which would be the basis for one's post-secondary education. By this time in one's life, one would "naturally" respect all life and "understand" the interdependence of all and the rights of all. Life would be a continual learning process and the knowledge that one could not "graduate" as an expert in only one part, would help one keep alive the necessary state of humility and grace to keep the process going, not only for oneself, but for all future generations. Following this process through many generations, I envision each person finally reaching a level of understanding that propels the whole race into a next level of existence. I haven't really envisioned what that is yet, but I do feel that when we get to it, there will be no problem with "parts" versus "whole". You asked for thoughts ........so, here's what I have been doing, on and off, since I was old enough to remember: Every morning, in those few seconds before I become aware of my physical body and all those daily "burdens" manifest themselves, I try to maintain the state and feeling of first awakening. In this state, I am free, my body is not a weight, there are no rules and restrictions, and I let myself go where I go and think what I think. Sometimes I can't do it, but often, I "see" answers to things and always I start off the day in a positive and happy state (even if only for 10 seconds!). Next I look out the window and thank the "Great Spirit" for the day, whatever kind of weather it is. I greet Mother Earth and say I am glad to be still here, part of the magic. Then I have a shower and under the running water, plan my day, solve business problems and get new ideas. Then I drive to work along back roads that take me past farms and open spaces and I usually have a conversation with either myself or an imaginary friend and as I get closer to that Corporation that keeps me in currency, I have to work hard at staying calm and in focus and telling myself that the point of it all is greater than all the little tasks I will probably end up getting embroiled in. Practically every day I fail to retain that focus, so I wait until every one has gone home at 5.00 p.m., and then I work until what ever time it takes for me to get the tasks done to my level of perfection with my energy infused in whatever I produce. Sounds nutty doesn't it? But more and more, I am unable to work amongst the chaos and as I get older, I am losing the ability to shut out the back ground noise and focus. On the positive side of things, more and more I am successful for a few seconds at a time in "completely joining" with what I am doing. For example, "joining" with my computer during doing a spreadsheet, so that I feel at one with the energy that is manifest in the "thing" that is my PC. During these times, I don't have to "remember" what to click on etc. like some learned behaviour, I do what ever is required naturally, and often do something new that I have not "learned" before, but that then becomes part of what I do and always speeds up the process. This latter concept is not new, either to me or to others, and the theory is that we develop this to give us more time to meditate and think - hence melding the how, what and why in our daily lives. We once thought that a kinder, gentler "man" was developing technology so that we could all be philosophers for more of the day. No deal! The more you achieve, the better you produce, the more you are given to do, until you are overloaded, solving everyone's problems, finishing up everyone's unfinished tasks, like some scabby old workhorse. Usually I take a break with the night shift. A cosmopolitan group of highly educated immigrants who cannot get well paid day jobs because of restrictions in acceptance of qualifications between countries. We often debate many of the issues I see on your network and sometimes, for a brief moment, in the middle of the night a group of people from diverse religions and cultures get so close that I can see the light come into the room and feel the love. Then we all go back to work or home and it is lost. Now, if you could bottle those moments................. Oh my gosh, I've talked too long again. Great debates going on on Theos-L Digest! One last point......... The other day, I thought briefly about a world without electricity and computers, and whether this was destined, part of a test. Hard not to do with all this talk and fear about the "end of the world as we have known it". The progression of my thought was that, sooner or later, we will all face a time of no computers, jobs, material comforts, whether individually or globally. Am I ready for that? No, but I think I'm being "told" to get into training pretty fast. Regards to all. Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:05:31 -0400 From: Annette Rivington Subject: Re: Still connected Message-ID: <33DBB81B.6F425410@globalserve.net> > Mark: you wrote" > > Don't forget, one day there'll be legends of us and people will > > romantically and mythologize us. Fantasized about what we were like > and > > project all there hope into visions of us .... > > > > Now look around you. > > Well, Mark, I am looking around............ Can't see much that is the stuff of legends and mythology nowadays, except perhaps that we are all being given the opportunity through freedom of thought, speech, and communication at the speed of bytes, to take up the challenge of understanding and love, without losing our lives over it. There seems to be a really strong energy moving us towards some resolution, or perhaps there always has been and some people have always responded to that "pull". I think ( or rather hope that) the next round of mythology does not contain a few "heros" or "sages", but numerous "regular Joes" who quietly "see the light" and do it differently. It's got to be more than coincidence that so many of the people now coming into our lives, and remaining important to us, are forcing us to understand each other, to be compassionate and patient, to relegate to unimportance the factors of gender, colour, race, and past indoctrinations. Re: Reduction in members.......... Children always leave at a time when they think they know it all. You have to let them go to fly on their own, to try out all that stuff they have been told about, to express their own wisdom in their individual way. If you let them, welcome them, they usually return later, to tell you that you weren't so wrong, but this is how they see it. Their personal variation on a universal theme. But who are these "ivory tower" types and "earthy types"? I don't understand! We are all one, aren't we? Hey, I don't even belong, but even I can see from these debates, that inside each one of us is a Theosophist, whether acknowledged or not. Love. Annette. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:33:56 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Toto totem: Ancestors Message-ID: I have a little tidbit to share with regards to ancestral importance and a possible correlation between reincarnation and "past life experiences". In my little social circle, we've been talking about the scientific aspects of PLEs. A hypothesis has arisen that these regressions come out through experiences encoded (perhaps) in the DNA. When someone is hypnotically regressed, they are actually picking up on the experiences of their ancestors which have genetically come down to them through heredity. In some, such memories may be a dormant gene or genes, whereas in others, particularly those who have "flashes", those genes are active. Is it possible that the Egyptians and the American Natives knew of a physical connection between their ancestors and themselves? --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:41:55 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <33DBDCC3.5C6F@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > No publisher in his right mind is going to put something on the internet as > long as it can sell in print. The moment it goes online, the copyright is an > unenforceable dead letter For the most part, yes, but... >and even the material is in public domain, ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!! Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:39:25 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict Message-ID: <33e0a136.9965756@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron wrote: >Since when did you getting so fucking irritable? Must have been >in my absence that you became even more of jerk that you already >were. Does that mean that our bondage date is off? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:10:02 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970728001002.00e7e450@mail.eden.com> At 07:43 PM 7/27/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >> No publisher in his right mind is going to put something on the internet as >> long as it can sell in print. The moment it goes online, the copyright is an >> unenforceable dead letter > > For the most part, yes, but... > >>and even the material is in public domain, > > ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!! > > Bart Lidofsky > Agreed. For example all the Federal Income Tax Forms are in the public domain and are also available on the web for download for free at any time. Many of the user manuals for software is now on the web as a pdf file. so things are moving in that direction. If HPB were to be writing SD or Isis today, considering the tight financial situation she was in, she would be publishing it on Internet. Another example. There is a firm in Washington DC which publishes daily tax news. It is also putting out for free a periodical -- once or twice a week newsletter for free. We will have to wait and see how all these things develop. One thing is for sure, publishing is not going to be the same in five years as it is today. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:14:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Folk souls, group souls, and faeries Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >The idea of human group soul is anathema to the true believers, let me tell >you. It may be anathema to some, but there could be more to it than the simplistic idea of absorption back into it at death. In my view (and experience) there is a strong case for all of us being permanently connected, both in [physical] life and in so-called death. IOW, the human group soul is something we share *right now* and all of the time. So when [reportedly] Jesus said that inasmuch as we do something to someone else we do it also to him, he was stating a plain esoteric fact, and not some fanciful "mystery" to be reserved for the knowledge of trained clerics. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:57:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Put down that stone! Message-ID: <6bRYNIAkB+2zEwCG@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >What CWL and others like him do can never be excused. But we can seperate the >man from his work even if he was very pretentious in his writings and >dangerous in his personal life to youth. Right! The important thing is to exercise discrimination, and evaluate his work (or yours, or mine) on its content and validity as time brings new evidence and new ways of investigation. > >There are hells, here on earth. Too true - we only have to read the daily news .... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:18:02 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: <199707280116.VAA13272@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Going down ... > Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 8:37 AM > > What is missing is IMHO the lack of involvment in practical physical level > activities in the communities members live. Failing to maintain this > connection, inevitably leads to deterioration in the physical level. May be > we are all guilty of it and may be we are all doing tremendous work at > higher levels. I dont know. > > If the current trend continues, the next century may be the last one for the > current incarnation of Theosophical Society as we know it even though the > work will continue via other organizations or non-organizations. > > ..........doss Well put, Doss. It brings to mind the idea of balance. Without balance between the head, the heart and the needs of the physical world, there is always problems. Edgar Cayce said that all the time. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:27:18 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: <199707280126.VAA15654@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Going down ... > Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 9:33 PM > > In message <199707261253.IAA03482@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" > writes > >Is it possible that the > >ivory towers types can walk down to earth and the earthy > >types can use all that intelligence to solve their everyday > >problems? > > Nope. Shall we open our own coffe shop? > STARBUCKS! Do they have any Starbucks gourmet coffee shops in the UK? Let alone in Cornwall. These drink-em-up here or take-em-out caffeine bars are all the rage now. Cappuccino, anyone? Mocha chill? Is this your subtle way of saying that the meeting of head types and down-to-earth people are over a cup of coffee? Maybe cafeeine can do more than I thought it could. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:28:57 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <199707280126.VAA15664@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict > Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 6:54 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > >Since when did you getting so fucking irritable? Must have been > >in my absence that you became even more of jerk that you already > >were. > > Does that mean that our bondage date is off? Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we probably spend three days in bed. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:36:53 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Independent and correct? Message-ID: <199707280133.VAA17456@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: K. Paul Johnson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Independent and correct? > Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 8:33 AM > > > Gisele wrote (re Blavatsky, Roerich, Bailey, Churchward, etc.): > > ..the ones who obtained their information independently and > are in agreement must be correct. Would you disagree? > > Having just finished my book on Cayce, I'm free to participate > in the list a bit more. First off, some background so you'll > know where I'm coming from. Glad that you're back with us. Although Cayce will always have a special place in my heart (heck, our natal charts are much the same), I do welcome your close look at what is real and what isn't in his readings. One thing I do know, Cayce loved pickled pigs feet and hunted game. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:15:36 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Djed Clamp it Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >This is why the One GOd idea of Ankanaten was >not so popular, maybe. It was not as fun as dressing up and perforning these >religious/magical ceremonies. Nothing's changed ... Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:57:04 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970728015704.00e39d0c@mail.eden.com> At 09:17 PM 7/27/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Going down ... >> Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 8:37 AM >> >> What is missing is IMHO the lack of involvment in practical physical level >> activities in the communities members live. Failing to maintain this >> connection, inevitably leads to deterioration in the physical level. May be >> we are all guilty of it and may be we are all doing tremendous work at >> higher levels. I dont know. >> >> If the current trend continues, the next century may be the last one for the >> current incarnation of Theosophical Society as we know it even though the >> work will continue via other organizations or non-organizations. >> >> ..........doss > >Well put, Doss. It brings to mind the idea of balance. Without >balance between the head, the heart and the needs of the physical >world, there is always problems. Edgar Cayce said that all the >time. > >A. Safron > > I am glad that I did not invent any of these. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:08:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Battle - Paper vs Cyber Message-ID: <2bdbNPAUM+2zEwjc@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970727185009.00e94860@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >Like shareware, it is quite possible >that those who feel a benefit from the material may come forth to support >the author. I donot know if this is going to work in the case of Internet >published materials. I doubt it - the internet is seen by most users as THE place to get stuff for free. On spiritual an related subjects, I would hope that authors who feel they have something worthwhile to say will find a way to place their work on the net for anyone who may benefit from it. If we have a background of support for the TS three objects (in whatever form) then surely making research material, articles, books - whatever comes within the remit of "brother/sisterhood"? It may need co-operation between us, but financial considerations do not appear to have been the reason behind (say) the Mahatma Letters, and I doubt anyone could claim copyright in them! Two of my own works remain available (free) on the site below, namely The Nazarenes and The Keys to Kabbalah. The co-operation factor is very strong in the latter, as my site links to Martin Euser's site, and the availability of the "Keys" in cyber form is entirely due to herculean efforts on Martin's part, for he put in a great deal of time and energy into making a usable and suitable presentation. He even added an appendix of a smaller work of mine which was not part of the original! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:06:21 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Electromag/occult law (Re: Egyptian 'djed') Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970727180621.0068a2e0@pacbell.net> At 05:11 AM 7/27/97 -0400, Gisele wrote: >Hi Lynn! > (quoting me) >> >>Eeek! This sounds almost like a form of "occult cannibalism". :-) Now, by >>Uraeus, do you mean the cobra and vulture worn by the pharoahs? > >Haha... Yes, the cobra. I didn't realize that the pharoahs wore a >'vulture', however, according to Steiner, the vulture symbolizes the >'astral'... Hi Gisele, The next time you happen to see a picture of Tutankhamen's funeral mask, you'll see the head of the vulture to the left (*your* left, Tut's right) of the cobra. However, if you happen to visit the Egyptian Museum's (Cairo) Web site, it'll be on the right because they (of all people) posted a reverse, right-left, image of it! ;-D >>Personally, I do believe that electro-magnetic energy is a physical >>correspondence to an occult law of attraction with a possible transition >>zone between the inner and outer planes as lying in the realm of quantum >>mechanics or quantum electrodynamics. Wow, I hope that didn't sound like >>mere babbling. :-) > >What was that again? :-) Ooops. ;-D In electromagnetism, opposite charges attract and like charges repel each other. Thus electrons flow toward a positive charge while the holes (positive charge) they left in the orbits of the atoms they escaped flow in the opposite direction toward the negative source. (Actually, this is oversimplified but you catch my drift. ;-D) With magnets, the north pole repels the north pole of a nearby magnet but is attracted to the south pole another magnet when placed nearby. So, you see the principles of attraction and repulsion there. Oh, and before I forget... last night I had another thought about electromagnetism and the number four. In an electromagnetic wave front, the electrostatic field is polarized 90 degrees (one fourth of a circle) with respect to the magnetic field. This also holds true for the direction of current flow in a wire and the direction of the magnetic field surrounding it. But that may be really stretching this concept too far and making a false correspondence. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Or is it? :-) (Wow, this could get into a whole thing about Occam's Razor and esotericism, come to think of it.) With the occult law of attraction, as I understand it, on lower planes it manifests as attraction and repulsion because on these planes we're under the mayic impression of duality. In spiritual terms, according to karma yoga, attraction and repulsion to objects, people, ideas, etc. are both karmically binding as there is a lack of total detachment from the three worlds. (I was going to give this opinion in the thread we had a while back on celibacy but didn't get around to it. I was going to say then that celibacy is not necessarily spiritually liberating because it is a form of repulsion against sex, not total detachment from it, which allows for participation in it.) So, looking at it from the higher planes, it is the dualistic manifestation of one principle, the law of attraction, IMHO. I know this is way oversimplified. When I spoke of the quantum level as possibly being a transition between the physical plane and the inner planes, I was theorizing based on some of the weird things that go on at the quantum level. For example, if you split a polarized beam of light into photon pairs traveling some distance apart, the photons will act identically as if they are somehow tied together (but no one knows what this "linkage" is). This has been referred to by physicists as action-at-a-distance. There was something recently in Science Weekly (an electronic newsletter) about this (which didn't call it action-at-a-distance, BTW) and if anyone is interested, I'll try to find the article and email it to them. Equally weird is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle where if you examine a relativistic particle or system, the very act of measurement will affect it. For example, if you measure its momentum, you change its position and vice versa. In this respect, the observer or the instrumentation used by the observer affects the system being observed, introducing an element of uncertainty into ones knowledge of the values of other observables. In effect, the observer becomes a part of the system being observed. This "relatedness" is why I referred to the quantum level as a transition zone. :-) Of course, I can be totally wrong and one day someone will be able to prove a physical plane reason for this. The uncertainty principle, BTW, only applies to relativistic systems where things are moving near the speed of light (subatomic particles). You won't observe it if you measure the momentum of a ball. But this idea didn't originate with me (spreading the blame if it's wrong). The "Tao of Physics" by Fritzof Capra really goes into this. The law of entropy (2nd law of thermodynamics) may be another "transition zone" but I haven't heard anyone say that, so I'm just WILDLY conjecturing here--on overdrive from reading too much physics and esotericism (or because I haven't taken my medicine). ;-D I'll respond to the rest of your post in another post since this one has become pretty long. :-) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 03:11:03 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <3416092f.36266483@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron wrote: >> From: Tom Robertson >> A. Safron wrote: >> >Since when did you getting so fucking irritable? Must have been >> >in my absence that you became even more of jerk that you already >> >were. >> Does that mean that our bondage date is off? >Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we >probably spend three days in bed. RU M or F? I'm very picky, you know. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:17:59 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: To the warrior princess of this ancient world Message-ID: <33DBD71F.4FB1@withoutwalls.com> A. Safron wrote: > Well, I want to be a warrior princess. Battling car accidents with my insurance > card and painting my kitchen with my trusty roller. Battle On, Saffron! Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:17:40 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Folk Soul Message-ID: <33DBD70C.4B70@withoutwalls.com> Giselle and Keith wrote: >> Giselle: If we think of the single individuals, the single egos, as little circles, >> for external physical observation they will be separate beings. But one >> who observes these single individualities spiritually sees them as though >> embedded in an etheric cloud, and this is the incorporation of the >> folk-soul. If the single person thinks, feels, and wills something, he >> radiates his feelings and thoughts into the common folk-soul. This is >> colored by his radiations, and the folk-soul becomes permeated by the >> thoughts and feelings of the single persons." > Keith: Oh, my dear, you are really getting into some heresy here!!! :0) > The idea of human group soul is anathema to the true believers. I have heard of this before and it makes sense to me. People, by and large, are not completely autonomous individuals. We all participate in group psychology at many levels; family, school, profession, church, community, nation, etc. We share and share alike. We build group thought and feeling forms, largely share common cultural values (conflicts notwithstanding), and get much of our socialization from these "clouds" of knowledge and attitude. Consciously or unconsciously, they impact us through our community and broadly through our "civilization". It happens subtly. It's one of the major factors that help to form our personality in childhood. We have connections with small and large groups of people in many different ways. It's no wonder that there might be equivalents of these on the inner planes that could be viewed, nor that they are participatory or active. I don't think it's so much a heretical issue of comparing us to animals. It could be some sort of vestige or remnant of animal group psychology. We are sooooo much animal, in ways we often take for granted to be human, it's not funny. Formation of healthy personality and true individuation of ego vis-a-vis self, is a process that has not completely occurred, by and large. We are still very much in it. If you take it theosophically, we're in the middle of the fifth root race. It's in this period that we are, as a race, supposedly compeled to utilize, refine and develop lower manas. The result of which creates strong egoic personalities, and hopefully some growing sense of awareness of something higher. This only happens by individualizing out of a psychological collective. It needs context. Blavatsky said there are "soulless" people that we meet on the street every day. It's true. There are relatively unindividualized people who mill about in their lives unconsciously acting as automatons of cultural collectivism, doing more or less "what they're told to", what's "expected" of them or what they "should". You could call them people of the "folk soul", or of the "mass consciousness". If you honestly and bravely look hard enough within yourself, you can see places where you're doing it to, and then, there it is, right under your feet, the road to individuality. > I think the turkey archetype is on the ascendent today in America! That's really very funny, and probably true, gobble, gobble. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 22:49:41 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: ts-l - the verdict Message-ID: <33DC40F9.64C3@withoutwalls.com> >> Does that mean that our bondage date is off? > Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we > probably spend three days in bed. Touche! Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:36:14 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: re: still connected Message-ID: <33DC4BEA.4E52@withoutwalls.com> Hi Annette, > > Don't forget, one day there'll be legends of us and people will > > romanticize and mythologize us. Fantasize about what we were like > > and project all there hope into visions of us .... > > > > Now look around you. Well, Mark, I am looking around............ Can't see much that is the stuff of legends and mythology nowadays, except perhaps that we are all being given the opportunity through freedom of thought, speech, and communication at the speed of bytes, to take up the challenge of understanding and love, without losing our lives over it. There seems to be a really strong energy moving us towards some resolution, or perhaps there always has been and some people have always responded to that "pull". I think (or rather hope that) the next round of mythology does not contain a few "heros" or "sages", but numerous "regular Joes" who quietly "see the light" and do it differently. It's got to be more than coincidence that so many of the people now coming into our lives, and remaining important to us, are forcing us to understand each other, to be compassionate and patient, to relegate to unimportance the factors of gender, colour, race, and past indoctrinations. Bravo. That's exactly my point (and thanks for giving me a chance to correct my horrendous spelling!) It's easy to project our romanticism and fantasies into the past and wrap up our hopes and dreams along in them. Harder to recognize them for the projections they are and withdraw them by ownership. Atlantis, Lemuria, all the Golden Ages of the past, etc., etc., etc. What I was trying to say is that life (past or present) is dirty and messy, confused and chaotic. We struggle in what we consider the "ordinary" to be all that we believe and hope we can be. I just wanted to attend to the fact that our opportunity is now. The ordinary IS the extraordinary. Someday, someone probably will romantize us and this time we live in, wish they could have existed now and believe that our time would have been such a cool time to live in, evolve through, be spiritual or gain self-realization in, etc. We don't always see it that way. We struggle, see all the flaws, know how fucked up things really are, grit and strive every day just to make ends meet. The fact that we can synthesize and articulate the ideas you've pointed out, believe in them and actually try to live our lives somewhat in accord with them is amazing to me. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 9:42:39 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Not arguing Message-ID: <199707281342.JAA13396@leo.vsla.edu> In response to my rather detailed explanation of my Cayce book, Gisele said that she had argued enough over such things and that I was free to believe or disbelieve whatever I want. Well, arguing is not what I had in mind but rather offering a perspective. That perspective has been gained, however, by reading the entire 13,000 page Edgar Cayce Library Series, spending many hours with the CD-ROM of readings and correspondence, and devouring all the relevant books about Cayce. And the manuscript has been read by many leading figures in ARE, none of whom has been unfriendly or dismissive. Much help has been obtained from other experts in the readings. People are free to believe in whomever they want, but also responsible to weigh evidence carefully and obtain all they can before deciding. I am open to discussing evidence pro and con Cayce's version of history, but not open to argument based on the assumption that anyone can arbitrarily choose what to believe without recourse to standards of evidence. That makes the world a tower of Babel. Which is a fair description of the occult/metaphysical milieu, no? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:44:47 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Open Mind Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970728154447.00dbdd78@mail.eden.com> Here is a quote from a msg I found in theos-talk: ==================================================== >Eldon Tucker asked for the text of the Golden Stairs found in Blavatsky's ES >Instructions. Here it is: > >"Behold the truth before you; a clean life, an open mind, a pure heart, an >eager intellect, an unveiled spiritual perception, a brotherliness for one's >co-disciple, a readiness to give and receive advice and instruction, a loyal >sense of duty to the teacher, a willing obedience to the behasts of TRUTH, >once we have possession of it; a courageous endurance of personal >injustice, a brave declaration of principles, a valient defence of those who >are unjstly attacked, and a constant eye to the ideal of human progression >and perfection which the secret science (Gupta-Vidya) depicts- these are the >golden stairs up the steps of which the learner may climb to the temple of >divine wisdom." > >All will notice that Blavatsky calls for AN OPEN MIND!!! > >The if perchance and unhappily the day ever dawns when closed minds greatly >predominate in the theosophical movement then alas that day will mark the >beginning of a rapid decline of the TS into well deserved oblivion. > >Philip S. Harris ====================================================== Here is my response, which some may find it interesting. Well said. When you have a closed mind, even when Truth -- whatever it is -- stares at you , you cannot see it. In my humble opinion, the Theosophical Movement in its present organizational form with all the properties and money may go into oblivion surely as it should because a movement which is not furthering the cause of real search for Truth has no role to play in human affairs. I personally feel that the Movement as such (sans property and politics) will continue to affect the minds of people of the world. One of the key tools is going to be the Internet which is currently the medium with built in freedom of expression where any kind of control or censor (traditionally called by the innocuous word *moderate*) by closed minded individuals (and people with vested interests -- monetary or otherwise) does not work -- it is too big as well as too difficult to control. My 2 cents worth. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:16:21 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <199707281613.MAA00939@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets > Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 10:12 PM > > A. Safron wrote: > > >> From: Tom Robertson > > >> A. Safron wrote: > > >> >Since when did you getting so fucking irritable? Must have been > >> >in my absence that you became even more of jerk that you already > >> >were. > > >> Does that mean that our bondage date is off? > > >Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we > >probably spend three days in bed. > > RU M or F? I'm very picky, you know. It's your call, honey. BTW, I KNOW that ts-l or nl-l or any other "l" controlled by those who think the world operates on the hushed tones of polite conversation would NEVER EVER let this slide down the Internet. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:19:30 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Djed Clamp it Message-ID: <199707281618.MAA02049@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Djed Clamp it > Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 8:34 PM > > In message , JOSEPH PRICE > writes > >This is why the One GOd idea of Ankanaten was > >not so popular, maybe. It was not as fun as dressing up and perforning these > >religious/magical ceremonies. > > Nothing's changed ... > :-))))))))))))))))))))))) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:32:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <970728133139_244312393@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-27 14:31:40 EDT, you write: >This whole issue of Internet publication has to be evolve and how it is >going to happen I do not know. On the other hand, for unknown and rookie >writers who cannot find a publisher or cannot afford to self publish print >version, Internet publication may be *the* only means of publishing. > > That part is true. In fact, the internet now makes it possible for self-publishers to make a profit again for the first time in over a century by allowing them to market their works without having to pay high advertising costs. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:46:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Not arguing Message-ID: <970728134248_-357365808@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-28 09:45:36 EDT, you write: > That makes >the world a tower of Babel. Which is a fair description of the >occult/metaphysical milieu, no? Well, the whole occult world is totally Babylonian. We just babylon and on and on. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:26:15 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: folk souls as thoughtforms, etc. Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728122615.006bb3d4@pacbell.net> Gisele, I'm sorry that the second part of my response to your post is arriving so long after the first part. Hubby pleaded with me to let him get on the computer before I was finished with this message. (I'll be soooo glad when we get that other monitor fixed so I'll have this system all to myself again!!!) You wrote: >here we go - 'folk souls'. According to Steiner (from Egyptian Myths and >Mysteries): > >"If we think of the single individuals, the single egos, as little circles, >for external physical observation they will be separate beings. But one >who observes these single individualities spiritually sees them as though >embedded in an etheric cloud, and this is the incorporation of the >folk-soul. If the single person thinks, feels, and wills something, he >radiates his feelings and thoughts into the common folk-soul. This is >colored by his radiations, and the folk-soul becomes permeated by the >thoughts and feelings of the single persons." This feels right!! It sounds more like group thoughtforms than group souls and I see a lot of evidence for this in our society. Not only do people add to the group thoughtform (which contains a huge amount of astral/emotional material, IMHO), but they also partake of it if it's a particularly attractive one in that it resonates with their individual vibrational frequencies, astral and lower manasic. By "attractive", I don't mean "attractive" in the sense of consciously liking something but in the sense of occultly drawing something to oneself. I think this has profound implications for serving humanity. At least as one way of doing so. If we work to raise the level of our thoughts and emotions, this would aid in creating group thoughtforms that serve to aid the evolution of humanity. The energy (and I believe all is energy) would have a stimulatory effect on the vehicles of those contacting it, raising their vibration and refining them. Of course, this would only be possible if we continually work at and succeed at raising the vibration of our own vehicles, thus refining the group thoughtform. IMHO, this is, at least in part, how humanity has evolved anyway and also how we unconsciously assist in the evolution of the animal kingdom. (I think part of it is also due to the cosmic "indraw" of the mantavaric "breath".) >> >>"To" or "Toto" is also intriguingly close to "totem" poles, also depicted >>as towers. But I may be coming up with a mere coincidence here. :-) > >Very good!!! I hadn't thought of that. Thank-you. I've gathered (from >Steiner again) that the Egyptians saw themselves as being judged by their >42 ancestors and for this reason, they felt that they had to improve on >whatever had been passed down to them. Therefore, ancestors were very >important to them as well as were the ancestors of the native Americans. Could the concept of "ancestors" have its roots in the concept of previous lives or of more advanced souls (masters, etc.) on the inner planes? Just a thought. > >>Off the >>top of my head, I don't know of a specific correspondence between the >>number four and anything dealing with electricity except as perhaps >>alternating positive and negative plates within a battery. > >I know absolutely nothing about batteries, but something about what you >said feels 'right' to me. (Maybe it has something to do with all those >mornings I woke up thinking about Egypt). Now what would be required is a >connection between batteries and inheritance because this 'djed pillar' >seems to appear in two different contexes. Hmmm. I can't fathom a connection here either. Is it possible that the ancient Egyptians had homonyms like we do, the same word for two totally different concepts? It would make for a greater economy of language, wouldn't it? >Not an easy task - but! I >suspect that the answer lies again in Steiner's book: > >"It would be his [an Egyptian's] particular concern that the folk soul >should become as strong as possible, rich in good forces, and that it >should not be diminished. The Egyptian initiates could not reckon with >what man possessed through blood-relationship. But what the forefathers >had accumulated as spiritual riches, was to become the property of the >individual soul.... he had to continue working on what his fathers had >created." > >Could energy and spiritual riches have an analogical relationship with the >Egyptians? (although I have no idea if spiritual riches were or can be >'passed down') I think there is a connection if they believed that ultimately all is energy as I do. In the context of what I wrote above about the folk soul as a group thoughtform, if true, then spiritual "riches" or attainments would indeed be passed down, though not in their fullness. The amount of the "inheritance" would be determined by the capacity of the recipient to receive it. This may have something to do with the Egyptian "not wanting to look bad in front of ones ancestors" if "ancestors" can indeed be interpreted as more highly evolved souls. (See above.) Hmmm. Maybe there is some connection between "batteries", if viewed as repositories of (spiritual) energy and inheritance (the "riches" or energy) after all. We just may be onto something here. ;-D I had the wonderful experience of meeting a swami who, IMHO, was very advanced. Having fasted all day prior to meeting him that evening, I was pretty sensitive and it was an incredible experience just to sit within his very large aura (as it's been said to be in highly evolved individuals). It was this tremendous energy. I'm not at all saying that it had any lasting effect that I know of on my own vehicles, but this type of effect if experienced on a frequent basis could have a beneficial effect on individuals as with the existence of refined thoughtforms. However, it's necessary for the individual to consciously respond to the stimulatory effect if much progress is to be made. The beauty of it is, IMHO, the stimulatory effect is likely to evoke a conscious response to some degree, igniting the individual's own efforts. An incremental kind of impetus (the refined energy)-response cycle could be the process. > >>You've brought up some fascinating food for >>thought, Gisele! I love chatting with you! > >Thank-you! I finally feel like I'm making some progress (and we'll talk >about astrology some day. That's another fascinating topic.) :-) I'm realllllly looking forward to that! Talking with you about these things is like an out-loud meditation. And astrology's a fascinating topic indeed!! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:18:51 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Awakening [Science and Religion (and Philosophy)] Message-ID: <33ea217f.54542787@mail.earthlink.net> Hello Annette, you wrote: [:->>Many thanks for the definitions. I like them. I have noticed that you are a kind and gracious lady, thank you. [:->>Isn't the above what we are all trying to do and finding it an onerous [:->>task? Or do you mean that Society could try to do this, pragmatically? No, society could I am sure be of great help in the matter but we ourselves must Walk the Way. It is we who have to find the synthesis of the various schools of thought and apply it Within to Unfold a Pure Inner Consciousness. This is a solitary activity though can be done in groups, society only seems to help prevent the Unfolding with their attempts at toxic conditioned thinking. [:->>the motivation of the previous round of scientists (approx.17th & 18th [:->>Centuries) was more that of religion/philosophy (and sometimes downright [:->>alchemy). What ended up as Science (the How), started out as their [:->>personal ways of seeking their answers to the Why, by which they hoped [:->>to find the "Truth". I often stop and remind myself that their seeking [:->>led to their "children's" "Science" which evolved into their [:->>"grandchildren's" Technology and a whole (new) way of life for a whole [:->>mess of (reluctant) people. Perhaps we should lean back toward Alchemy and the Gnostics, they have a better grasp on this topic than the modern thinker or scientist or religionist does. [:->>Of course we could "meld" the three very simply. All education would be [:->>about one subject only - "The search for Truth". Sounds good to me, both on a social as well as a personal level. [:->> Life [:->>would be a continual learning process and the knowledge that one could [:->>not "graduate" as an expert in only one part, would help one keep alive [:->>the necessary state of humility and grace to keep the process going, not [:->>only for oneself, but for all future generations. I think that we should take this to the school board. Though you are absolutely correct, I do not think that society would go along with it -- they are the body who generates most if not all of the toxic conditioning. [:->>Following this process through many generations, I envision each person [:->>finally reaching a level of understanding that propels the whole race [:->>into a next level of existence. I haven't really envisioned what that [:->>is yet, but I do feel that when we get to it, there will be no problem [:->>with "parts" versus "whole". What an Idealist, or Utopian, . . . . . . . . . or Theosophist (they are synonymous terms I am told). [:->>I try to [:->>maintain the state and feeling of first awakening. In this state, I am [:->>free, my body is not a weight, there are no rules and restrictions, and [:->>I let myself go where I go and think what I think. Sometimes I can't do [:->>it, but often, I "see" answers to things and always I start off the day [:->>in a positive and happy state (even if only for 10 seconds!). A beautiful experience -- however, the object of meditation is to manifest the Meditative State of Mind outward in everything that we do all of the time continuously. Is that not called 'Awake'. This is to say that one can focus the attention from Within into the everyday world without -- a focus within a focus, as it were. This is a Balance of what we have to deal with in the world at large and the Unfolding of the Inner Higher Self. [:->>This latter concept is not new, either to me or to others, and the [:->>theory is that we develop this to give us more time to meditate and [:->>think - hence melding the how, what and why in our daily lives. I think that you have the answer, now that answer just has to be worked on. This is primarily done through meditation and struggling with all of the toxic social conditioned thinking to discard it. [:->>One last point......... [:->>The other day, I thought briefly about a world without electricity and [:->>computers, and whether this was destined, part of a test. Hard not to [:->>do with all this talk and fear about the "end of the world as we have [:->>known it". The progression of my thought was that, sooner or later, we [:->>will all face a time of no computers, jobs, material comforts, whether [:->>individually or globally. Am I ready for that? No, but I think I'm [:->>being "told" to get into training pretty fast. Well, I do not think that we have to be too concerned about "the end of the world" (we still have a ways to go). But you are quite correct in thinking that there is no need to waste any time in Unfolding the True Inner Higher Self of Pure Inner Consciousness. I would say that you are more Inwardly Aware than you give yourself credit for Annette. ___ {+ +} ___________oo0(_)0oo_______________________ One of the hardest lessons to learn - yet absolutely essential for those dedicated to the search for Truth - is the reality of paradoxes - contradictions and uncertainty. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j. }~!~{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "Some men can live up to their loftiest ideals without ever going higher than a basement" - Theodore Roosevelt From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:51:38 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Electromag/occult law (Re: Egyptian 'djed') Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728105138.006bb100@pacbell.net> Hi everyone, Yesterday I posted something about what I believed to be the possible relationship of quantum physics and esotericism. This morning my socks were blown off to read an article on Theos-talk posted by Eldon Tucker (and written by Malcolm Browne) on the linkage between photon pairs. According to a quote in the article, "many theorists think quantum physics is a code that interconnects everything in the universe including life itself". It seems that quantum physics is proving theosophy. :-) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:36:23 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Folk Soul Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728113623.006bffa0@pacbell.net> At 01:20 AM 7/28/97 -0400, Mark wrote: >I don't think it's so much a heretical issue of comparing us to animals. >It could be some sort of vestige or remnant of animal group psychology. >We are sooooo much animal, in ways we often take for granted to be >human, it's not funny. Formation of healthy personality and true >individuation of ego vis-a-vis self, is a process that has not >completely occurred, by and large. We are still very much in it. I agree. There also seems to be quite a bit of overlap between (theosophically speaking) the human and animal kingdoms, especially with nonhuman primates, IMHO. (Biologically, of course, we're considered part of the animal kingdom.) Could we perhaps be seeing the beginnings of individuation among chimpanzees? Unlike other animals, chimpanzees recognize an image in the mirror as being themselves, which suggests a humanlike awareness of self/not-self. (Even human babies don't develop this awareness until ~6 months of age.) BTW, Mark, when you speak of ego, are you speaking of it as psychologists use the term, as the threefold personality, or the soul (with self referring to the highest principles? I just want to make sure I understood you correctly. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:15:28 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970728111528.006c07b0@pacbell.net> Doss wrote: >On the other hand, the speed of distribution and the low cost of publication >on Internet is going to pickup speed and is going to change the publishing >landscape in the years to come. It would be interesting to watch the >developments. > >.........doss It's fascinating how this issue is being discussed on so many lists, so it is a biggie. On scientific lists people are weighing the pros and cons of putting scientific journals online. (Right now, many scientific journals are putting only tables of contents and maybe abstracts of articles on the Web). On an indexers discussion list, my colleagues are fretting about how this will affect us, whose livelihoods depend on paper publishing. Personally, I feel that the growth in online publishing is inevitable and it is simply a matter of time before companies will work out how to do it and continue to make a profit. Well, some already have worked out a way to charge for online materials (periodicals). As for putting theosophical materials that are in the public domain or with the express permission of the author, I'm all in favor of it. This way we can truly reach those vast numbers who may not happen to stroll into a bookstore's occult section, but may key "reincarnation" (for example) into a search engine. I don't think that book-length online materials will cut drastically into book sales in the very near future. For one, you can't take your internet connection easily to the beach yet. (Well, you can but you need a laptop with a wireless internet connection. ;-D) More importantly, there seems to be a limit to the amount of text that one can absorb from a computer screen in a given timeframe without tiring. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:47:41 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Thinking positive Message-ID: <199707282147.PAA11571@mailmx.micron.net> A. Safron wrote to Tom: >>Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we >>probably spend three days in bed. Three days? Your faith in Tom moves me. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:43:48 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Group Souls Message-ID: <199707282208.SAA27324@NetGSI.com> >It may be anathema to some, but there could be more to it than the >simplistic idea of absorption back into it at death. In my view (and >experience) there is a strong case for all of us being permanently >connected, both in [physical] life and in so-called death. > >IOW, the human group soul is something we share *right now* and all of >the time. So when [reportedly] Jesus said that inasmuch as we do >something to someone else we do it also to him, he was stating a plain >esoteric fact, and not some fanciful "mystery" to be reserved for the >knowledge of trained clerics. > >Alan Alan, I agree with you 100%. We kicked around the group soul business a few years ago, but it keeps rearing its ugly head. IMHO the best info on the subject is by de Purucker, whose definition of the human lifewave is much closer to what is going on than the AB/CWL notion of group souls. We are all interconnected because we all belong in the same human lifewave currently incarnating on Globe D. This is where collective karma comes from. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 18:00:17 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Golden Stairs Message-ID: <199707282208.SAA27326@NetGSI.com> >All will notice that Blavatsky calls for AN OPEN MIND!!! > Yeah, but what the heck is "a clean life" or "a pure heart" for that matter?? Pretty subjective stuff. HPB was writing for the masses here, and it shows. My guess is that her tongue was stuffed into her cheek when she wrote this one. These stairs will take the true aspirant perhaps one step, but not much further. Whatever happened to the real steps, like to Dare, and to Try?? Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:18:14 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970728221814.00b9e0d0@mail.eden.com> At 03:34 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>On the other hand, the speed of distribution and the low cost of publication >>on Internet is going to pickup speed and is going to change the publishing >>landscape in the years to come. It would be interesting to watch the >>developments. >> >>.........doss > >It's fascinating how this issue is being discussed on so many lists, so it >is a biggie. On scientific lists people are weighing the pros and cons of >putting scientific journals online. (Right now, many scientific journals >are putting only tables of contents and maybe abstracts of articles on the >Web). On an indexers discussion list, my colleagues are fretting about how >this will affect us, whose livelihoods depend on paper publishing. > >Personally, I feel that the growth in online publishing is inevitable and >it is simply a matter of time before companies will work out how to do it >and continue to make a profit. Well, some already have worked out a way to >charge for online materials (periodicals). As for putting theosophical >materials that are in the public domain or with the express permission of >the author, I'm all in favor of it. This way we can truly reach those vast >numbers who may not happen to stroll into a bookstore's occult section, but >may key "reincarnation" (for example) into a search engine. > >I don't think that book-length online materials will cut drastically into >book sales in the very near future. For one, you can't take your internet >connection easily to the beach yet. (Well, you can but you need a laptop >with a wireless internet connection. ;-D) More importantly, there seems to >be a limit to the amount of text that one can absorb from a computer screen >in a given timeframe without tiring. > >Lynn I am a rookie in this business of publishing etc. Glad that someone like you who is more into the mechanics of publication is here to give us a feedback. As for the livelyhood being affected for some of us, in this age of technology, jobs tend to be obsolete and we all keep retraining so that as newer needs and opportunities arise we are ready for it. Hopefully hard copy is never going to become obsolete. But with laser printers, the future looks bring in home-printing; you print your own books. This is becoming a reality when publications are converted to pdf files so that they can be viewed as well as printed. Theosophical publications are in a unique category by itself. As a well known lecturer pointed out, TS has always made its knowledge available for free and expects those benefactors also pass them on for free. So it looks like Theosophy and Internet is a match made in heaven for unrestricted and free distribution of knowledge and information (no flames as to how bills are going to be paid -- just a few fat cats is all that is needed to take care of the mundane bill paying problem -- but reaching out to the masses is a massive undertaking and that is where I see future action lies. Contrary to some who may think that Theosophy is for the well educated elite intellectuals, I feel that Internet is finally going to take Theosophy into every home. just like TV and exiciting days are ahead but not necessarily exponential increase in memberships in T organizations. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:31:07 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Golden Stairs Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970728223107.00c86680@mail.eden.com> At 06:12 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >>All will notice that Blavatsky calls for AN OPEN MIND!!! >> > >Yeah, but what the heck is "a clean life" or "a pure heart" >for that matter?? Pretty subjective stuff. HPB was writing >for the masses here, and it shows. My guess is that her >tongue was stuffed into her cheek when she wrote this one. >These stairs will take the true aspirant perhaps one step, >but not much further. Whatever happened to the real >steps, like to Dare, and to Try?? > >Jerry S. >Member, TI > For most of us like myself -- who are rookies in this matter and perhaps not having taken even 1/100th of a step, even a single step is something to look forward to. I always try to take one step at a time! ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:59:19 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Golden Stairs Message-ID: <33DD3257.6610@sprynet.com> Jerry Schueler wrote: > > >All will notice that Blavatsky calls for AN OPEN MIND!!! > > > > Yeah, but what the heck is "a clean life" or "a pure heart" > for that matter?? Pretty subjective stuff. HPB was writing > for the masses here, and it shows. My guess is that her > tongue was stuffed into her cheek when she wrote this one. > These stairs will take the true aspirant perhaps one step, > but not much further. Whatever happened to the real > steps, like to Dare, and to Try?? I almost answered in sarcastic mode, but I'm trying to be kinder and gentler here. Try looking beyond the surface of the words. Try thinking of how each step is a necessity to reach the next. You should see that there are deeper meanings than a simple and simplistic reading might show. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:30:07 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729003007.00e260b8@mail.eden.com> Anyone out there found out anything interesting or new at Olcott? ...doss 7.30pm cdt PS: Kym, if you do receive this msg, send me e-mail. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:37:51 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Thinking positive Message-ID: <33fb36cc.23632414@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym, in a display of extreme pessimism, wrote: >A. Safron wrote to Tom: >>Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, >>we probably spend three days in bed. >Three days? Your faith in Tom moves me. . . Your negativity might be justified, however, since, usually, after 2 days, my wrists start hurting, anyway. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:48:57 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Folk Soul Message-ID: In message <33DBD70C.4B70@withoutwalls.com>, Mark Kusek writes >> I think the turkey archetype is on the ascendent today in America! > >That's really very funny, and probably true, gobble, gobble. > >Mark Beware Thanksgiving ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:24:17 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Folk Soul Message-ID: <199707290128.VAA14256@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Mark Kusek > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Folk Soul > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 12:20 AM > > > Keith: Oh, my dear, you are really getting into some heresy here!!! :0) > > The idea of human group soul is anathema to the true believers. > > I have heard of this before and it makes sense to me. People, by and > large, are not completely autonomous individuals. We all participate in > group psychology at many levels; family, school, profession, church, > community, nation, etc. We share and share alike. We build group thought > and feeling forms, largely share common cultural values (conflicts > notwithstanding), and get much of our socialization from these "clouds" > of knowledge and attitude. Consciously or unconsciously, they impact us > through our community and broadly through our "civilization". It happens > subtly. It's one of the major factors that help to form our personality > in childhood. We have connections with small and large groups of people > in many different ways. > Cayce said that there were different kinds of group karma. While there is personal karma (according to EC), there was also family karma, national karma, to name a few. I've been involved with the LCC for 25 odd years now, and am just beginning to realize the karma I have with that group and with the the other people involved. While I may have problems with some of their old fashioned ways, I also have a deep love and karma connection. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:27:16 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199707290128.VAA14266@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Battle between paper and cyber version > Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 2:14 PM > > In the recent days, I have had the interesting experience of watching the > current trend on the question of publications in the paper version versus > the publication in the cyberspace. > There is also the issue of publishers and software manufacturers publishing on CD ROM. Cramming as much as they can on a single disk, they can make some money off of it. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:29:54 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle - Paper vs Cyber Message-ID: <199707290128.VAA14271@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: dslusser > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Battle - Paper vs Cyber > Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 6:09 AM > > > Eldon Tucker has offered to help me set up a Web Page for the HCT -- > and this I haven't had time for as yet. I'm willing -- so where do we > go from here? > > I'd be delighted to send the HCT to my overseas subscribers via e-mail > Yesterday I sent 13 copies of the july issue by first class Airmail to > subscribers in Australia, England, Wales, Germany, France, Netherlands, > Belgium, Costa Rica & Philippines --mostly at my own out of pocket > expense. The postage ran from $1.09 to $1.55 per copy. This was in > addition to about 87 copies at 2nd class for $21 Pardon my ignorance, but what is the HCT? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:44:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: In message <199707280126.VAA15654@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >STARBUCKS! Do they have any Starbucks gourmet coffee shops in the UK? >Let alone in Cornwall. These drink-em-up here or take-em-out caffeine bars >are all the rage now. Cappuccino, anyone? Mocha chill? Not in Cornwall, but I dunno about anywhere else. > >Is this your subtle way of saying that the meeting of head types >and down-to-earth people are over a cup of coffee? It can work - I've seen it happen (long time ago). No guarantees. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:44:39 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729014439.00d9879c@mail.eden.com> At 09:29 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Battle between paper and cyber version >> Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 2:14 PM >> >> In the recent days, I have had the interesting experience of watching the >> current trend on the question of publications in the paper version versus >> the publication in the cyberspace. >> > > >There is also the issue of publishers and software manufacturers >publishing on CD ROM. Cramming as much as they can on a single >disk, they can make some money off of it. > >A. Safron > Cost effective cd-rom recorders are on the way. This just leads to duplication of CDs. So this kind of developments go on and on. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:46:58 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle - Paper vs Cyber Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729014658.00d94494@mail.eden.com> At 09:29 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: dslusser >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Battle - Paper vs Cyber >> Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 6:09 AM >> >> >> Eldon Tucker has offered to help me set up a Web Page for the HCT -- >> and this I haven't had time for as yet. I'm willing -- so where do we >> go from here? >> >> I'd be delighted to send the HCT to my overseas subscribers via e-mail >> Yesterday I sent 13 copies of the july issue by first class Airmail to >> subscribers in Australia, England, Wales, Germany, France, Netherlands, >> Belgium, Costa Rica & Philippines --mostly at my own out of pocket >> expense. The postage ran from $1.09 to $1.55 per copy. This was in >> addition to about 87 copies at 2nd class for $21 > >Pardon my ignorance, but what is the HCT? > >A. Safron > HCT - HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:54:20 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Thinking positive Message-ID: <199707290150.VAA21241@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Thinking positive > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 7:45 PM > > Kym, in a display of extreme pessimism, wrote: > > >A. Safron wrote to Tom: > > >>Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, >>we probably spend three days in bed. > > >Three days? Your faith in Tom moves me. . . > What about your faith in me? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:55:26 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <34013ca2.25126539@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> >---------- >> From: Tom Robertson >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets >> Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 10:12 PM >> >> A. Safron wrote: >> >> >> From: Tom Robertson >> >> >> A. Safron wrote: >> >> >> >Since when did you getting so fucking irritable? Must have been >> >> >in my absence that you became even more of jerk that you already >> >> >were. >> >> >> Does that mean that our bondage date is off? >> >> >Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we >> >probably spend three days in bed. >> >> RU M or F? I'm very picky, you know. > >It's your call, honey. Okay, I decided that URF. >BTW, I KNOW that ts-l or nl-l or any other "l" controlled by those >who think the world operates on the hushed tones of polite >conversation would NEVER EVER let this slide down the >Internet. This has been a very Theosophical discussion. It has included unflinching humor in the face of a merciless attack, demonstrating true brotherhood and forgiveness in action. I'm sure the moderator of TS-L would let my comments slide, since she knows that I would never say anything untheosophical, anyway. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:43:48 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <33DD58E4.13D8@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > Anyone out there found out anything interesting or new at Olcott? What sort of things would interest you? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:12:25 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Hairy issues Message-ID: <33DD5F99.6ABA4F5F@micron.net> Ok, this is a REAL question - I'm not trying to get anyone's bloomers bunched, considering the sensitive souls that hover here. But - is it true that John Algeo has a lock of Olcott's hair in his office at Wheaton? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:59:22 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Hairy issues Message-ID: <3415661f.35723000@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Kym wrote: >Ok, this is a REAL question - I'm not trying to get anyone's bloomers >bunched, considering the sensitive souls that hover here. > >But - is it true that John Algeo has a lock of Olcott's hair in his >office at Wheaton? People are starving to death, and you're worried about a little hair. Don't you have any compassion? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 03:56:38 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Group Human Life Wave/Soul/Psychology Message-ID: > I have heard of this before and it makes sense to me. People, by and > large, are not completely autonomous individuals. We all participate in > group psychology at many levels; family, school, profession, church, > community, nation, etc. We share and share alike. We build group thought > and feeling forms, largely share common cultural values (conflicts > notwithstanding), and get much of our socialization from these "clouds" > of knowledge and attitude. Consciously or unconsciously, they impact us > through our community and broadly through our "civilization". It happens > subtly. It's one of the major factors that help to form our personality > in childhood. We have connections with small and large groups of people > in many different ways. > Cayce said that there were different kinds of group karma. While there is personal karma (according to EC), there was also family karma, national karma, to name a few. I've been involved with the LCC for 25 odd years now, and am just beginning to realize the karma I have with that group and with the the other people involved. While I may have problems with some of their old fashioned ways, I also have a deep love and karma connection. A. Safron Keith: I think that our social or herd instinct is often overlooked in the literature. We all are imprinted with cultural patterns and follow herd like out of necessity. I mean you can't go too slow or the wrong way on American freeways for very long - you keep up, you use the right signals or you get instant karma -POW! Thus we are forced to go along. I think the third and fifth chakras have a lot to do with instinctual social functioning and conscious persona manipulation respectively - and thank God for it. We aren't isolated egos, and if we try to give our egos up, the men in white, will come to take you away Ha Ha He He to the funny farm where life is sweet... until you see the errors of your ways. Social functioning is what organizations are about, so maybe the TSA is doing the best it can to keep a "normal" face on the movement despite all. In order to achieve enlightenment or whatever in the west, I think you must have maximal social functioning ( a la computers etc.) rather than retreating to caves or sitting under Banyon trees as in the East (and they are so Westernized now, are there any true ascetics over there?) Despite all the bad press, ego and social functioning are the foundation of spiritual advancement, without them you can slide down the slope of Mt. Meru as fast as you flew up on wax wings. Take the Golden Stairs, the elevator is broken. Namste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 04:04:02 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Quatum mechanics proves theosophy??? Message-ID: Lynn writes: Hi everyone, Yesterday I posted something about what I believed to be the possible relationship of quantum physics and esotericism. This morning my socks were blown off to read an article on Theos-talk posted by Eldon Tucker (and written by Malcolm Browne) on the linkage between photon pairs. According to a quote in the article, "many theorists think quantum physics is a code that interconnects everything in the universe including life itself". It seems that quantum physics is proving theosophy. :-) Keith: Yeah, we have heard this before, but there are a lot of critics --- chief among them Mr. Pagels the husband of Elaine who fell down the cliff (I hope she is in the arms of Sophia and out of the shards!) He is a physicist and goes into great detail to prove that there is no action or communication at a distance between the paritcles, its all illusion of the Measurer - Maya you know, Maya means to measure. Sorry, but we can't depend on today's physcics, because it all changes so fast, doesn't it! With regrets because I love all that DANCING WU LEI Masters stuff too Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 04:11:32 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: On the Left Hand.... Message-ID: I was browsing the web and lurked into some left hand path sites. I never thought of it before, but it seem that Wicca/Witchcraft exalts the feminine, the earth mother and as such appeal to feminists and some men who need a feminine archetype to worship and Satanists exalt the masculine, at its worst as a male as selfish rapist and the women who love them?????? Am alone or is this common knowledge. Namste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:39:17 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Hairy issues Message-ID: <33DD73F5.11CC@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Ok, this is a REAL question - I'm not trying to get anyone's bloomers > bunched, considering the sensitive souls that hover here. > > But - is it true that John Algeo has a lock of Olcott's hair in his > office at Wheaton? I wish you had asked that BEFORE I went to his office, last week! In any case, I looked over the memorabilia, and I don't remember seeing a lock of Olcott's hair there. On the other hand, I won't swear that I did NOT see a lock of Olcott's hair. Sorry. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:49:39 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: On the Left Hand.... Message-ID: <33DD7663.6BCA@sprynet.com> JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > > I was browsing the web and lurked into some left hand path sites. I never > thought of it before, but it seem that Wicca/Witchcraft exalts the feminine, > the earth mother and as such appeal to feminists and some men who need a > feminine archetype to worship and Satanists exalt the masculine, at its worst > as a male as selfish rapist and the women who love them?????? You seem to be implying that Wicca is part of the left-hand path, which is, as far as I know, and I know quite a bit, is not true. Also, the Wiccan religion considers masculine and feminine to be of equal importance. There are certainly groups who call themselves witches or neo-pagans, or, sometimes, incorrectly, Wiccans, who exalt the female over the male. And there are plenty of non-Satanist neo-pagans (and Satanists do not consider themselves to be neo-pagan, and actually follow a Blavatskian definition of Satanism) who concentrate on the male, and a few radical groups that consider the other sex to be a mere sperm-donors or womb-donors. In any case, the Wiccan religion, and, by and large, the neo-pagan groups that followed them, are part of the new religions predicted by the 1900 letter. There was a strong Theosophical influence at the base of the Wiccan religion, and the neo-pagan movement (with the exception of Asartu). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:45:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: In message <199707280116.VAA13272@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >there is always problems. Edgar Cayce said that all the >time. All the time? - when did he fit in is clairvoyance? Alan [slaps wrist] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:03:27 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: The Conspiracy Message-ID: <199707290703.BAA13524@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: > I almost answered in sarcastic mode, but I'm trying to be kinder and >gentler here. OH NO! They got to you, too! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:07:30 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Folk Soul Message-ID: <33DDB2C9.15B0@withoutwalls.com> Lynn wrote: > I agree. There also seems to be quite a bit of overlap between > (theosophically speaking) the human and animal kingdoms, especially with > nonhuman primates, IMHO. (Biologically, of course, we're considered part of > the animal kingdom.) Could we perhaps be seeing the beginnings of > individuation among chimpanzees? Unlike other animals, chimpanzees > recognize an image in the mirror as being themselves, which suggests a > humanlike awareness of self/not-self. (Even human babies don't develop this > awareness until ~6 months of age.) Yes and there is a noted correspondence between the animal, when approaching individualization, and human prenatal life. The animal at this stage is said to correspond to the last two months of a human foetus. An animal group soul reputedly 'thins out', differentiates or divides (by a fission-like process) as its evolution progresses. What once serves as the envelope of many monad's developing lower triads and has countless animal forms attached to it, comes in due course of time, to serve as the separate envelope for a single monad's lower triad. It is then said to be "drawing near to individualization." This "singular" group soul may still have several animal forms attached to it, but eventually again 'thins' down to where only one associates with it. (I'm hurting MY OWN head here!) Supposedly, "large numbers of the higher domestic animals have reached this stage, and have really become separate entities, incarnating in a succession of animal bodies; although they have not as yet, of course, attained to the possession of a causal body - the true mark of individualization" (and the entry, technically, into the human kingdom.) Elephants, monkeys, dogs and cats are some of the known seven-ray classes from which, it is said, individualization out of the animal kingdom can occur, with the horse as a possible fifth. There is a brief, readable synopsis of this AB/CWL notion of group souls in Powell's "The Causal Body and the Ego" (TPH. ISBN 7229-5097-7). A handy book for a lot tricky theos stuff. > BTW, Mark, when you speak of ego, are you speaking of it as psychologists > use the term, as the threefold personality, or the soul (with self > referring to the highest principles? I just want to make sure I understood > you correctly. I was speaking in basic Jungian terms where the "ego" is the (threefold) conscious waking personality and the "self" refers to all the rest (causal and above & beyond). I don't always use those two words that way, but I did in this instance. Thanks for asking. Then Jerry wrote: > IMHO the best info on the subject is by de Purucker, whose > definition of the human lifewave is much closer to what is > going on than the AB/CWL notion of group souls. We are all > interconnected because we all belong in the same human > lifewave currently incarnating on Globe D. This is where > collective karma comes from. Yes. I also agree. de Purucker is a treasure-trove. I highly reccommend the erudite twelve volume series "Esoteric Teachings" (Point Loma Publications) among several others. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:51:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <4W+I+PAeCT3zEw7S@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <3416092f.36266483@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>, Tom Robertson writes >A. Safron wrote: > >>> From: Tom Robertson > >>> A. Safron wrote: > >>> >Since when did you getting so fucking irritable? Must have been >>> >in my absence that you became even more of jerk that you already >>> >were. > >>> Does that mean that our bondage date is off? > >>Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we >>probably spend three days in bed. > >RU M or F? I'm very picky, you know. Shouldn't this be on alt.sex.theosophy? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:53:47 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729115347.00eacdd8@mail.eden.com> At 10:44 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >> Anyone out there found out anything interesting or new at Olcott? > > What sort of things would interest you? > > Bart Lidofsky > Anything of general interest. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:54:50 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Hairy issues Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729115450.00ead360@mail.eden.com> At 11:09 PM 7/28/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Ok, this is a REAL question - I'm not trying to get anyone's bloomers >bunched, considering the sensitive souls that hover here. > >But - is it true that John Algeo has a lock of Olcott's hair in his >office at Wheaton? > > >Kym > Interesting info. .....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:00:16 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729120016.00ebaa54@mail.eden.com> At 04:21 AM 7/29/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <3416092f.36266483@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>, Tom Robertson > writes >>A. Safron wrote: >> >>>> From: Tom Robertson >> >>>> A. Safron wrote: >> >>>> >Since when did you getting so fucking irritable? Must have been >>>> >in my absence that you became even more of jerk that you already >>>> >were. >> >>>> Does that mean that our bondage date is off? >> >>>Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we >>>probably spend three days in bed. >> >>RU M or F? I'm very picky, you know. > >Shouldn't this be on alt.sex.theosophy? > >Alan alt.sex.theosophy? Will attract droves of readers! .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:43:07 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <199707291239.IAA27430@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Annual Meeting > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 7:32 PM > > Anyone out there found out anything interesting or new at Olcott? > > ...doss 7.30pm cdt > > PS: Kym, if you do receive this msg, send me e-mail. > I'd like to know what when on there, too. The weather must have been really hot and humid. BTW, I got my car back yesterday and the insurance company is seeming to side with me. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:44:01 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729124401.00ea93c4@mail.eden.com> At 08:40 AM 7/29/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Annual Meeting >> Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 7:32 PM >> >> Anyone out there found out anything interesting or new at Olcott? >> >> ...doss 7.30pm cdt >> >> PS: Kym, if you do receive this msg, send me e-mail. >> >I'd like to know what when on there, too. The weather >must have been really hot and humid. > >BTW, I got my car back yesterday and the insurance >company is seeming to side with me. > >A. Safron > Glad that you have your wheels now. ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:52:49 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <199707291249.IAA28696@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 8:57 PM > > >> >Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we > >> >probably spend three days in bed. > >> > >> RU M or F? I'm very picky, you know. > > > >It's your call, honey. > > Okay, I decided that URF. MURF? SMURF? > > >BTW, I KNOW that ts-l or nl-l or any other "l" controlled by those > >who think the world operates on the hushed tones of polite > >conversation would NEVER EVER let this slide down the > >Internet. > > This has been a very Theosophical discussion. In a decidedly Scorpion organization, that is true. It has included > unflinching humor in the face of a merciless attack, Attack? Did I aim for the groin? demonstrating > true brotherhood and forgiveness in action. Brotherhood? Are we talking about a gay relationship here? And who is forgiving what? Oh, yes, I cancelled the bondage date. I'm sure the moderator of > TS-L would let my comments slide, since she knows that I would never > say anything untheosophical, anyway. If the world contains all things theosophical and that includes sexual banter, then that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 8:55:03 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Heinz dead, Elaine not Message-ID: <199707291255.IAA18514@leo.vsla.edu> Keith referred to Elaine Pagels falling off a cliff but that was her husband Heinz, quite a few years back. Elaine's fine AFAIK. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:14:45 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199707291430.KAA01838@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: techndex@pacbell.net > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 2:34 PM > > It's fascinating how this issue is being discussed on so many lists, so it > is a biggie. On scientific lists people are weighing the pros and cons of > putting scientific journals online. (Right now, many scientific journals > are putting only tables of contents and maybe abstracts of articles on the > Web). On an indexers discussion list, my colleagues are fretting about how > this will affect us, whose livelihoods depend on paper publishing. > Thanks for your insightful post. While scientific papers may go online, it is possible that the popular books may stay on the shelves, since people are willing to pay for them. Many book written by celebrities along with a ghost author are being sold. I purchased one recently. The wife of Steven Tyler, lead singer for Aerosmith, divorced from her husband, decided to trash him royally in 209 pages. The kicker is that it was published by Dove books. This is but one example of the many celebrity biogrophy and autobiographies that are being published, along with the I-knew-him-for-two-days and am going to make some money off the sucker type of literature. Ever visit the endless wall of romance novels? Fabio is makiing millions. The point here, is that there will be some books, although truly on the astral, that people will pay money for and the publishers are not going to put it on online. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:16:42 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <199707291430.KAA01845@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 7:02 AM > > >> > >>>> Does that mean that our bondage date is off? > >> > >>>Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we > >>>probably spend three days in bed. > >> > >>RU M or F? I'm very picky, you know. > > > >Shouldn't this be on alt.sex.theosophy? > > > >Alan > > > alt.sex.theosophy? > > Will attract droves of readers! > Maybe this will revive the membership of TS all around the world! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:18:10 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <199707291430.KAA01850@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Annual Meeting > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:56 AM > > At 10:44 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: > >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >> > >> Anyone out there found out anything interesting or new at Olcott? > > > > What sort of things would interest you? > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > What about the lecture about female adepts? A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:22:21 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Hairy issues Message-ID: <199707291430.KAA01857@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: kymsmith@micron.net > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Hairy issues > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 10:09 PM > > Ok, this is a REAL question - I'm not trying to get anyone's bloomers > bunched, considering the sensitive souls that hover here. > > But - is it true that John Algeo has a lock of Olcott's hair in his > office at Wheaton? > Somehow I would imagine that he inherited from the many presidents before him. This sort of thing reminds me of relics of the saints. Perhaps the vibes arounds relics or locks of hair give off some kind of inspiration or actual higher vibrations. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:25:58 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: <199707291430.KAA01862@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Going down ... > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 8:32 PM > > >Is this your subtle way of saying that the meeting of head types > >and down-to-earth people are over a cup of coffee? > > It can work - I've seen it happen (long time ago). No guarantees. > How about tea bars or tea houses? Always preferred tea to coffee myself. A holdover from my last life in England. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:30:35 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <199707291430.KAA01869@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A. > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: FW: Simplistic Teaching. > Date: Thursday, July 24, 1997 8:05 AM > > Jerry S. wrote: > >The doctrine of cycles is too simplistic in Theosophical > >literature and leads to tail-chasing IMO. > > > >Cheers, > >KPJ > > I agree, Paul. Also with karma, reincarnation, and most other topics. > Things are really a whole lot more complex then they look on the > surface. And modern Theosophy only scratches the surface (I think > HPB would agree with this). > > Jerry S. > > Einar here. > > Things are simple - they simply are. > It is our mind and out mode of thinking that is complex. > "Mind is the slayer of the real" according to Blavatsky, and when we have finally entered the "direct mode of percepting" i.e. Intuitive understanding, "things", including manvabtaras, cycles karma and reincarnation will become simple again - and totally different from what we thought before. > This is why the saints and sages tell us not to bother too much about this "thinking about" things and instead turn our mind to the "direct perception". For this we need to turn inwardly, by meditation, by inrtospection, by trying to understand ourselves, our mode of thinking, our fellings, seeking intuition, direct understanding, rather than outward connfirmation. > According to Patanjali yoga is the art of inhibiting or controling the modes of thinking (simply stated) or being able to stay in the mode of "silent mind", a condition where no thoughts enter the mind for a peolonged period of time. Then, states Patanjali in his third sutra, "the chela will see himself [and the world] as he really is". > We will never "really" understand the world by pondering over it, trying to think our way to an understanding of it. Only direct intuitive seeing will bring us to that real understanding, and then we will understand that convaying that truth to others is almost impossible. > > There exists no chaos in the entire Universe. The only "chasos" there is, is the chaos in our head, which is called "Maya" or ignorance. Remove Maya and the world will return to harmony - automatacally!. (In reality - to tell the truth - Maya is also part of the universal harmony, as has be peceived in every profound mystical experience thrughout the ages). > > Be in peace. > > Einar. Be at peace, too, Einar, but it is amazing that for all the short simple posts at the beginning of this, you managed to ramble on to some complicated and difficult writing that made my head spin. Perhaps this is your mode of communication. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:44:42 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: Re: Quatum mechanics proves theosophy??? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970729084442.007f1ac0@imagiware.com> Keith: >Yesterday I posted something about what I believed to be the possible >relationship of quantum physics and esotericism. This morning my socks were >blown off to read an article on Theos-talk posted by Eldon Tucker (and >written by Malcolm Browne) on the linkage between photon pairs. I can't take credit for the posting. It came from Rudolfo Don. He tried to post it to theos-talk from an address different that the one that he was subscribed with and so the posting bounced. I put it on theos-talk for him. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:45:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Golden Stairs Message-ID: <970729114355_819577814@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-28 18:13:32 EDT, you write: >Yeah, but what the heck is "a clean life" or "a pure heart" >for that matter?? Hell, those would sure leave me out. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:49:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <970729114756_105767000@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-28 21:29:30 EDT, you write: >There is also the issue of publishers and software manufacturers >publishing on CD ROM. Cramming as much as they can on a single >disk, they can make some money off of it. > >A. Safron > > The publication cost with CD is so much lower that the profit margin increases dramatically. the problem is getting enough material on the damned thing so the consumer thinks he's getting his money's worth. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:56:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <970729115357_-1877391524@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-29 04:23:28 EDT, you write: >Shouldn't this be on alt.sex.theosophy? NO, I'm not starting that newsgroup! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:59:11 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <33DE215F.413F@sprynet.com> A. Safron wrote: > > >> Anyone out there found out anything interesting or new at Olcott? > > > > > > What sort of things would interest you? > > > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > What about the lecture about female adepts? A) Carol Ward is an excellent lecturer; she is certainly welcome to speak at the New York Lodge at any time. B) The lecture went into the question of what is an adept in the first place. In any case, the conclusion was that certainly there are female adepts (several were mentioned, but not by name, in the Mahatma Letters). It was also postulated that, since adepts take the form in which best to do their work, and in the past males were allowed by culture to do more than females, that adepts used male bodies purely for convenience's sake. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:06:09 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729170609.0070b324@mail.eden.com> At 08:49 AM 7/29/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > >A. Safron What else do you expect? Any one who dares to support this list may not have a job at Olcott, IMHO! ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:06:12 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729170612.0070c984@mail.eden.com> At 10:31 AM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Annual Meeting >> Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 6:56 AM >> >> At 10:44 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >> >> >> Anyone out there found out anything interesting or new at Olcott? >> > >> > What sort of things would interest you? >> > >> > Bart Lidofsky >> > >What about the lecture about female adepts? > >A. Safron > When Carol was visiting here some months back, she spoke on the subject and was interesting. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:06:21 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729170621.0070e110@mail.eden.com> At 10:31 AM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets >> Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 7:02 AM >> >> >> >> >>>> Does that mean that our bondage date is off? >> >> >> >>>Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we >> >>>probably spend three days in bed. >> >> >> >>RU M or F? I'm very picky, you know. >> > >> >Shouldn't this be on alt.sex.theosophy? >> > >> >Alan >> >> >> alt.sex.theosophy? >> >> Will attract droves of readers! >> >Maybe this will revive the membership of TS all around the world! > >A. Safron > May be! ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:06:31 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Hairy issues Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729170631.0070f8fc@mail.eden.com> At 10:31 AM 7/29/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: kymsmith@micron.net >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Hairy issues >> Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 10:09 PM >> >> Ok, this is a REAL question - I'm not trying to get anyone's bloomers >> bunched, considering the sensitive souls that hover here. >> >> But - is it true that John Algeo has a lock of Olcott's hair in his >> office at Wheaton? >> >Somehow I would imagine that he inherited from the many >presidents before him. This sort of thing reminds me of >relics of the saints. Perhaps the vibes arounds relics >or locks of hair give off some kind of inspiration or >actual higher vibrations. > >A. Safron There is the story of how some of those interested in Krishnaji wanted his hair for good vibes I suppose. His response was that the moment he started giving away his hair, soon he will go bald and I think he never encouraged anyone to have his hair. .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:12:12 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199707291812.MAA23729@mailmx.micron.net> Chuck wrote: >The publication cost with CD is so much lower that the profit margin >increases dramatically. the problem is getting enough material on the damned >thing so the consumer thinks he's getting his money's worth. Oh, Chuckie, I know it was an innocent oversight, but ye neglected some sentient beings in your para: ". . .so the consumer thinks he/she is getting his/her money's worth." Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:23:58 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729182358.00e0273c@mail.eden.com> At 02:13 PM 7/29/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Chuck wrote: > >>The publication cost with CD is so much lower that the profit margin >>increases dramatically. the problem is getting enough material on the damned >>thing so the consumer thinks he's getting his money's worth. > >Oh, Chuckie, I know it was an innocent oversight, but ye neglected some >sentient beings in your para: ". . .so the consumer thinks he/she is getting >his/her money's worth." > > >Kym Corel Corporation which now owns Wordperfect has a solution. They pack all and sundry older software (with updates) into a cd-rom so the users do really get value for their money both in perceived and real terms. Same could be done by authors. They can even consider putting some public domain stuff to fill the cd to capacity. We are going to see some innovative approaches. BTW I do not have any first hand experience in publishing matters. ===================doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:19:14 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Quatum mechanics proves theosophy??? Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970729111914.0069880c@pacbell.net> Eldon, Actually, Keith was quoting me there. But, you deserve still some of the credit too. :-) Lynn At 11:44 AM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >Keith: > >>Yesterday I posted something about what I believed to be the possible >>relationship of quantum physics and esotericism. This morning my socks were >>blown off to read an article on Theos-talk posted by Eldon Tucker (and >>written by Malcolm Browne) on the linkage between photon pairs. > >I can't take credit for the posting. It came from Rudolfo Don. He tried >to post it to theos-talk from an address different that the one that >he was subscribed with and so the posting bounced. I put it on theos-talk >for him. > >-- Eldon > > *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:48:42 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <33ed535a.8243253@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron asked: >What about the lecture about female adepts? That's a hot one! My favorite verse from "The Gospel of Thomas" is when Jesus told his disciples to go and preach to women, so that they might become male like them. Praise the Lord! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:26:02 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: RE: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <01BC9C66.0D0A3020@annasb.ismennt.is> Be at peace, too, Einar, but it is amazing that for all the short simple posts at the beginning of this, you managed to ramble on to some complicated and difficult writing that made my head spin. Perhaps this is your mode of communication. A. Safron Oh, My God. I thought I could hear a head spin all the way over here! Be careful what you read, Anne. :-} Greetings, Einar From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:47:55 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <199707292247.QAA13576@mailmx.micron.net> Tom wrote: >That's a hot one! My favorite verse from "The Gospel of Thomas" is >when Jesus told his disciples to go and preach to women, so that they >might become male like them. Praise the Lord! Hmm, impressive. . .however, I suggest caution, Tombo - lest your wee Wit Well run dry! Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:00:43 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Practical Application of Karma! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970729230043.00c0972c@mail.eden.com> This was a story that has been written up. I do not know if it is real or just some one's fiction. Two cars were involved in an auto accident and both were expensive luxury cars. The owners were driving the cars. Owner/driver of one of the cars got out and went to the driver of second car and apologized to the him. The owner/driver of second car got out and hugged the other driver and told him that it was god that made the accident happen and hence not to worry about it since insurance company will take care of the damage and said we are all brothers. Normally in situations like this the drivers get emotional. ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 23:30:19 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Pagels alive Message-ID: Keith referred to Elaine Pagels falling off a cliff but that was her husband Heinz, quite a few years back. Elaine's fine AFAIK. Keith: I'm glad to hear about Elaine and sorry to hear it was Heinz. Yes, it was in his book THE COSMIC CODE in which he debunked the attempt to marry quantum physics (the lower physical plane) to the spirtual/ buddhic/ relgious/ plane (one of the higher planes) bypassing the biological and to some extent the intellectual. His main point, I believe is that the microcosmic world of cosmic physics is much like the macrocosmic world of the atomic world of the stars and our sun, but the mesocosmic world is a world of statistics where all the cosmic/quatumn fuzziness gets washed away into the all to specific world of the senses which is Maya when compared to the micro and macro. Enough already Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 23:33:03 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Clone the curl Message-ID: I know how to solve everything. Let's clone HPB, and Olcott and KrishnaJi and CWL and ask them what happened. But then some would haven't anything to talk about. I for one am looking forward to the next millenium and could almost care less about 1888. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:53:37 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Clone the curl Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970730005337.00e91d98@mail.eden.com> At 07:47 PM 7/29/97 -0400, JOSEPH PRICE wrote: >I know how to solve everything. Let's clone HPB, and Olcott and KrishnaJi and >CWL and ask them what happened. But then some would haven't anything to talk >about. I for one am looking forward to the next millenium and could almost >care less about 1888. > >Namaste >Keith Good idea. Let us look to the future. Let past take care of itself. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:56:42 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Golden Stairs Message-ID: <199707300056.RAA02035@palrel3.hp.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Jerry Schueler wrote: >> >>> All will notice that Blavatsky calls for AN OPEN MIND!!! >> >> Yeah, but what the heck is "a clean life" or "a pure heart" >> for that matter?? Pretty subjective stuff. HPB was writing >> for the masses here, and it shows. My guess is that her >> tongue was stuffed into her cheek when she wrote this one. >> These stairs will take the true aspirant perhaps one step, >> but not much further. Whatever happened to the real >> steps, like to Dare, and to Try?? > Try looking beyond the surface of the words. Try thinking of how each > step is a necessity to reach the next. You should see that there are > deeper meanings than a simple and simplistic reading might show. I think the straightforward meaning is a good one. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:29:17 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Some funnies. Message-ID: I thought some of these might be appreciated. A little humor goes a long way...:-) --- Jaqi. ACTUAL Announcements Taken from Church Bulletins: Don't let worry kill you. Let the Church help. Thursday night-Potluck Supper. Prayer and medication to follow. Remember in prayer the many who are sick of our church and community. For those of you who have children and don't know it, we have a nursery downstairs. The rosebud on the altar this morning is to announce the birth of David Alan Belzer, the sin of Rev and Mrs. Julius Belzer. This afternoon there will be a meeting in the south and north ends of the church. Children will be baptized at both ends. Tuesday at 4PM there will be an ice cream social. All ladies giving milk will please come early. Wednesday, the Ladies Liturgy Society will meet. Mrs. Jones will sing "Put Me In My Little Bed" accompanied by the pastor. Thursday at 5PM there will be a meeting of the Little Mothers Club. All wishing to become Little Mothers, please see the minister in his private study. This being Easter Sunday, we will ask Mrs. Lewis to come forward and lay an egg on the altar. The service will close with "Little Drops of Water". One of the ladies will start (quietly) and the rest of the congregation will join in. Next Sunday, a special collection will be taken to defray the cost of the new carpet. All those wishing to do something on the new carpet will come forward and get a piece of paper. The ladies of the church have cast off clothing of every kind and they may be seen in the church basement Friday. A bean supper will be held on Tuesday evening in the church hall. Music will follow. At the evening service tonight, the sermon topic will be "What is Hell?" Come early and listen to our choir practice. Weight Watchers will meet at 7 PM at the First Presbyterian Church. Please use large double door at the side entrance. The 1991 Spring Council Retreat will be hell May 10 and 11. Pastor is on vacation. Massages can be given to church secretary. 8 new choir robes are currently needed, due to the addition of several new members and to the deterioration of some older ones. Mrs. Johnson will be entering the hospital this week for testes. The Senior Choir invites any member of the congregation who enjoys sinning to join the choir. Please join us as we show our support for Amy and Alan who is preparing for the girth of their first child. Scouts are saving aluminum cans, bottles, and other items to be recycled. Proceeds will be used to cripple children. The Lutheran Men's group will meet at 6 PM. Steak, mashed potatoes, green beans, bread and dessert will be served for a nominal feel. The Associate Minister unveiled the church's new tithing campaign slogan last Sunday: "I Upped My Pledge--Up Yours." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:15:46 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Thinking positive Message-ID: In message <199707282147.PAA11571@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >A. Safron wrote to Tom: > >>>Bondage? Listen, there's so much energy between us, if we ever met, we >>>probably spend three days in bed. > >Three days? Your faith in Tom moves me. . . > To where .... ? --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:39:40 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Quantum mechanics proves theosophy??? Message-ID: <199707300139.SAA08343@palrel3.hp.com> Tangential to the subject ... There is an interesting book by Victor Mansfield, titled "Synchronicity, Science, and Soul-Making" that deals with a psychological and Tibetan Buddhist view of things such as action at a distance and synchronicity. Very readable, and he has enough Physics credentials at least. I have a little problem, though, with the interpretation of synchronicity common in the psychological community. Meaningful coincidences are viewed as totally acausal connections. Quantum Mechanics is used to justify the idea that causality is just a prejudice of consciousness to tie events together. I think it would be a theosophical view to say that meaningful coincidences operate through higher causal laws. It seems to me that Quantum Mechanics only does away with determinism as it relates to individual events. The wave function itself that governs probabilities of individual events strictly obeys causality. This jives with the impression I get from theosophical literature that the broad-brush overall plan of our world is determined, but that details are dependent on free will choice. It has been likened to a ship on a journey. Your destination is determined, but your experience is conditioned by what you do on the ship during the journey. You can make it harder, or delay it for a season or cycle. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:21:17 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Doggie doo Message-ID: In message <199707291249.IAA28696@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >my personal conversations with others at >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > >A. Safron WE OBJECT! The Doggies Union From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:57:44 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Female adepts Message-ID: <199707300157.SAA10848@palrel3.hp.com> "A. Safron" wrote: >>>> Anyone out there found out anything interesting or new at Olcott? >>> >>> What sort of things would interest you? >>> >>> Bart Lidofsky >>> > What about the lecture about female adepts? In the Christian literature I've read (admittedly a rather focused sample) there were more female saints than male. Paralleling my unscientific and purely subjective findings, an author, whose name I now forget, counted modern references to stigmatists and found that more than half were Italian and most female. Among my favorite saints: Catherine of Sienna and Theresa of Avila. I'm not as familiar with Eastern saints, but one I wish there was more information on one called Mataji described by Yogananda. His description implied she was at about the same level of evolvement as Babaji, the greatest avatar he had personally met. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:19:52 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Practical Application of Karma! Message-ID: <199707300219.UAA01455@mailmx.micron.net> Doss wrote: >Two cars were involved in an auto accident and both were expensive luxury >cars. The owners were driving the cars. Owner/driver of one of the cars got >out and went to the driver of second car and apologized to the him. The >owner/driver of second car got out and hugged the other driver and told him >that it was god that made the accident happen and hence not to worry about >it since insurance company will take care of the damage and said we are all >brothers. So the points are: Rich people can be nice? Having insurance makes people kinder and carefree? God is blamed for everything? We are all brothers? We have to (yuk!) HUG people to work off karma? That not all men, when hugged, think the other man is gay? I dunno the moral of this story. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:12:57 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: On the Left Hand.... Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >I was browsing the web and lurked into some left hand path sites. I never >thought of it before, but it seem that Wicca/Witchcraft exalts the feminine, >the earth mother and as such appeal to feminists and some men who need a >feminine archetype to worship and Satanists exalt the masculine, at its worst >as a male as selfish rapist and the women who love them?????? > >Am alone or is this common knowledge. Well, you are not alone, and no doubt some will disagree with your view, but it seems near enough to me. I doubt it's common knowledge, though. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:23:09 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Going down ... Message-ID: In message <199707291430.KAA01862@cliff.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >> >Is this your subtle way of saying that the meeting of head types >> >and down-to-earth people are over a cup of coffee? >> >> It can work - I've seen it happen (long time ago). No guarantees. >> >How about tea bars or tea houses? Always preferred tea to coffee myself. >A holdover from my last life in England. > >A. Safron Come to think of it, it WAS tea, not coffee! Alan ;-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:05:35 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Practical Application of Karma! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970730030535.00eb95d4@mail.eden.com> At 10:20 PM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>Two cars were involved in an auto accident and both were expensive luxury >>cars. The owners were driving the cars. Owner/driver of one of the cars got >>out and went to the driver of second car and apologized to the him. The >>owner/driver of second car got out and hugged the other driver and told him >>that it was god that made the accident happen and hence not to worry about >>it since insurance company will take care of the damage and said we are all >>brothers. > >So the points are: > >Rich people can be nice? > >Having insurance makes people kinder and carefree? > >God is blamed for everything? > >We are all brothers? > >We have to (yuk!) HUG people to work off karma? > >That not all men, when hugged, think the other man is gay? > > >I dunno the moral of this story. . . > > >Kym > Simple. Usually people get into a physical fight. I was even a potential juror in a trial where due to a minor auto accident in a gas station the two drivers got into an argument which ended when one pushed the other and one of them fell on the concrete slab of the gas station pavement hit his head and died of injuries and the wife of the man who died, sued not only the other guy but the owner of the gas station because the latter was a corporation with deep pockets. .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:23:42 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Quantum mechanics proves theosophy??? Message-ID: <33edaf46.20787959@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Ttius wrote: >I think it would be a theosophical view to say that meaningful coincidences >operate through higher causal laws. > >It seems to me that Quantum Mechanics only does away with determinism >as it relates to individual events. The wave function itself that governs >probabilities of individual events strictly obeys causality. My hunch is that causation and randomness, like spirit and matter, never exist purely, but always mixed with the other, so that nothing is ever purely caused or purely random. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:17:05 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Clone the curl Message-ID: <199707300617.AAA22657@mailmx.micron.net> Keith wrote: >>I know how to solve everything. Let's clone HPB, and Olcott and KrishnaJi and >>CWL and ask them what happened. But then some would haven't anything to talk >>about. I for one am looking forward to the next millenium and could almost >>care less about 1888. Doss responded: >Good idea. > >Let us look to the future. > >Let past take care of itself. Could it be we've given in to self-righteousness in being so open-minded? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:53:59 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Clone the curl Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970730125359.00ed5eb0@mail.eden.com> At 02:17 AM 7/30/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Keith wrote: > >>>I know how to solve everything. Let's clone HPB, and Olcott and KrishnaJi >and >>>CWL and ask them what happened. But then some would haven't anything to >talk >>>about. I for one am looking forward to the next millenium and could almost >>>care less about 1888. > >Doss responded: > >>Good idea. >> >>Let us look to the future. >> >>Let past take care of itself. > > >Could it be we've given in to self-righteousness in being so open-minded? > > >Kym > May be. doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 15:25:50 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Some funnies Message-ID: I thought some of these might be appreciated. A little humor goes a long way...:-) --- Jaqi. ACTUAL Announcements Taken from Church Bulletins: Keith; ROFL .... THanks Jaqui, I really laughed out loud this morning! You know, I like the HODGE PODGE LODGE at Summer School the one time I saw it. It took some pretty irreverant pot shots at theosophy, the TSA, and all to the good and really helped clear the air. Talk about the air, does anyone know when Jupiter goes direct? There are some pretty strange astrological things happening. I saw a refrece in a post the other day. I know Patrick Allesandra and others watch these things. What' up? Thanks Jaqui Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 15:37:59 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Quantum randomness and random thoughts Message-ID: TITUS WRITES: seems to me that Quantum Mechanics only Itdoes away with determinism as it relates to individual events. The wave function itself that governs probabilities of individual events strictly obeys causality. This jives with the impression I get from theosophical literature that the broad-brush overall plan of our world is determined, but that details are dependent on free will choice. It has been likened to a ship on a journey. Your destination is determined, but your experience is conditioned by what you do on the ship during the journey. You can make it harder, or delay it for a season or cycle. Keith: I have heard this before, but I like the way you put it. But always stirring.....I think one of the cheif attractions of theosophy used to be that like occultism in general, one is suppossedly able to speed one's development or get in contact with those that have in order to help others (right hand path). Purucker talks about the 8th globe, for those that pursue the left hand path for selfish or destructive purposes. You know, I was watching a video about Tesla. He wanted to provide free electricity to ships and all of us through radio transmission. This oil magnate, I forget, was funding it then he withdrew because he couldn't put a meter on the transmitted electiricity. Tesla is an interesting case. He talks about freeing people from the grid of utility lines which we seem to need. Air is free. Sunlight is free. But energy and water and waste etc. depends on a complex grid system This grid system could be expanded to include the grid of culture and career paths, political systems and the direction we must travel. Conspiracy theorist may be right in that he who controls the grid controls the gold (money) and controls the physcial plane. I would like to think that we could walk lightly on the grid, ever mindful of our higher vehicles without being ensnared in it. Sometimes I feel this way. Rambling as usual Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 15:48:48 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Open-mindedness is self righeous? Message-ID: Kym writes: Could it be we've given in to self-righteousness in being so open-minded? Kym Keith: I think I know what you mean, but isn't it usually the other way around. Those that want an investigation, and inquisition, punishment are the self- righeous ones. May be I am a little naive, pretentious, and self satisfied in that I think I can forgive and forget, but I think self-rightousness is what is keeping us, I mean the splintered, growing ever smaller, factions of the theosphy movement apart. I think it goes back to the idea that we have a rebel psychology, even if hidden under the ample and prudish skirts of the TSA. In other words, we want to go against the general culture and old time religions because we feel justified, a little bettter than the bumkin Christians ... I lifted my skirts a litttle.... it's your turn Kym .... no rumpled sheets intended! Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:46:41 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Quantum Physics & Theosophy Message-ID: <199707301617.MAA14124@NetGSI.com> >According >to a quote in the article, "many theorists think quantum physics is a code >that interconnects everything in the universe including life itself". It >seems that quantum physics is proving theosophy. :-) > >Lynn Let me just say that back in 1988, in my Enochian Physics, I suggested that thoughts are not strong enough to directly influence the body, but could easily influence subatomic particles within the body in ways that would explain levitation, healing, and many other psychic phenomena. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:55:06 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: To Dare & Try Message-ID: <199707301617.MAA14126@NetGSI.com> >For most of us like myself -- who are rookies in this matter and perhaps not >having taken even 1/100th of a step, even a single step is something to look >forward to. I always try to take one step at a time! > >......doss Doss, I have no problem with what you are saying. We all have to start somewhere, and ethics is probably the best first step anyone can take. My problem is with theosophists who seem to think that this first step is all there is; that we have to sign up with some guru and undergo trials and tribulates as a chela in order to go further. This is not true. First obtain ethics, then compasion, and then study occult laws, etc. and then practice practice practice. Living gurus are no longer necessary, IMHO. The whole occult teaching of DARE and TRY seems to be ignored by today's theosophists. Am I wrong? Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:12:44 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <199707301617.MAA14130@NetGSI.com> > I almost answered in sarcastic mode, but I'm trying to be kinder and >gentler here. Gee, thanks Bart. I appreciate it. I was NOT trying to be funny, though. > Try looking beyond the surface of the words. Try thinking of how each >step is a necessity to reach the next. You should see that there are >deeper meanings than a simple and simplistic reading might show. > > Bart Lidofsky First of all, each step is NOT a necessity to reach the next. The order of steps given by HPB is the theosophical approach. This is NOT accepted by most schools of occultism or magic. It is rather unique to theosophy, and one of the reasons that I like HPB and her theosophy. The main argument to HPB is her "sickly sweet" ethics, which are religious in tone rather than magical or occult. Her ethical tone (which I do not like) is NOT necessary. Plain common sense is all that is needed to make one develop compassion. The BIG PROBLEM with her tone is that it encourages a sense of right and wrong, and this is exactly why the Masters said in the MLs that religion is the primary scourge of mankind. Speaking from my own experiences (Chuck, I think, will back me up) as we experience other planes and slowly integrate spirituality into our daily life, our sense of right and wrong dissolves into various shades of gray. The eventual goal is exactly what HPB tells us: to be like a melon in that we are outeardly soft towards others while being ineardly hard on ourselves. Softness toward others comes from seeing grayness, from acceptance and compassion, and NOT from thinking them right or wrong. I know many ethical Christians, for example, but hardly any who have real compassion. Compassion and love are protective devices on the inner planes, and for that reason alone should be cultivated. NOT because love is right and hate is wrong, which is but our human way of thinking. HPB knew this very well, but was a lot easier for her to simply emphasize ethics and morals without any reason rationale. In this, she follows the Hindu path. The Buddhist, and especially the Tibetan path, is a lot more realistic (not so sickly sweet). I fully understand that she was speaking to a Christian audience, and put it all in words that they could understand. But I wonder how many other theosophists understand this? Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:15:02 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Group Karma Message-ID: <199707301644.MAA15212@NetGSI.com> >Cayce said that there were different kinds of group karma. While there >is personal karma (according to EC), there was also family karma, >national karma, to name a few. So does HPB. G. de Purucker goes into detail about this. Even the TSs have their group karma. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:22:42 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Wiccans and Satanists--to Keith Message-ID: <199707301644.MAA15215@NetGSI.com> >I was browsing the web and lurked into some left hand path sites. I never >thought of it before, but it seem that Wicca/Witchcraft exalts the feminine, >the earth mother and as such appeal to feminists and some men who need a >feminine archetype to worship and Satanists exalt the masculine, at its worst >as a male as selfish rapist and the women who love them?????? > >Am alone or is this common knowledge. > >Namste >Keith Price Its common knowledge, Keith. You must be living in a cave :-) Yes, Wicca mostly appeals to feminists, but when conducted properly, the coven will equally emphasize masculine (god) and feminine (goddess) together. Satanists, as far as I know, exalt the ego more than any god or goddess. They are the true Black Brothers that HPB talks about. They do NOT worship the devil in any Christian sense, but DO try to immortalize the ego or personal self, which IMHO is much worse. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 12:50:05 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Crank call Message-ID: <199707301650.MAA03518@leo.vsla.edu> Hi gang-- Yesterday I got a weird call from a Theosophist I had seen once for about 5 minutes in the last 9 years. We had never been friends, but had attended some conferences in the 1980s. Herewith my reconstruction (C is for caller). BTW the call came right at dinner time, which made me think it must be a long-distance company. But I answered anyhow. P: Hello. C: Is this Paul Johnson? This is the CIA (long pause), no it's (name). P: Yeah, I recognized your voice. C: I'm seeing your name a lot in different places, talking about your book in reference books. P: Reference books? C: Well, not really reference books, but like X (Cites obscure occult tome.) Anyway, I was calling to find out exactly what your position is on the Masters. P: Beg pardon? C: I want to know what you are trying to do, debunk the Masters? (At this point I realize that the same person made the same inquiries in another weird phone call in 1991 after my first book came out.) P: I just finished a book on Edgar Cayce, feel much more at home in the ARE than I ever did in Theosophical groups, and am not trying to do anything at all involving Theosophy. C: Well, what *were* you trying to do? Let me put it this way: do you believe that the Theosophical teachings are true, or not? P: Can't give a blanket answer to that; some are, some aren't. I think that what HPB was attempting to accomplish was good and worthwhile, though. Look, I'm kinda busy right now... C: But you probably have your own definition of what she was trying to do. So, what is your position on the Masters? Are there really Masters as depicted in Theosophical books? P: That's a complicated question. Have you read my books? C: NO! I don't WANT to read them! P: Well, I don't want to explain them to you if you don't want to read them. C: Goodbye Paul, you're still a prick. END This guy may be notorious for weird phone calls to people he hasn't seen or spoken to in years, for all I know. Was a ULT member last I knew. I'm just reporting the conversation as an example of the bizarre expectations people have of authors. Expecting someone to explain his writings to you because you are too hostile towards him to read them yourself really takes the cake. Not the first such treatment I've gotten from a ULT member, by the way. Perplexedly, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:02:57 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Quantum Theosophy Message-ID: <199707301707.NAA16228@NetGSI.com> >I have a little problem, though, with the interpretation of synchronicity >common in the psychological community. Meaningful coincidences are viewed as >totally acausal connections. Quantum Mechanics is used to justify the idea >that causality is just a prejudice of consciousness to tie events together. >I think it would be a theosophical view to say that meaningful coincidences >operate through higher causal laws. I have read Mansfield's book. There are, in fact, many books around on synchronicity, some good and some not so good. If the cause of any event is known or guessed, then it is not a synchronicity. By definition, a synchronicity only occurs as a noncausal event--an event for which no known cause can be found. As above so below is true in magic, occultism and theosophy. If it is proved that noncausal events happen at the quantum level, then it seems reasonable to assume that they can happen as well at all levels. I beieve that they do, and on our everyday level I have called them events caused by the Chaos Factor, which is to say acausal. In a theosophical sense, they are caused by our collective karma--there is no personal karma to cause the event. >It seems to me that Quantum Mechanics only does away with >determinism as it relates to individual events. The wave function >itself that governs probabilities of individual events strictly obeys >causality. This is equivalent to saying that we can do away with our personal karma--which is true enough; its called jivamukta. Yes, the wave function is deterministic at the quantum level. The "collapse of the wave function" only occurs when the event is brought back to our everyday level--when it is observed by a human observer. So we can say that collective karma is deterministic at the collective level, but is nondeterministic at the individual level. Does this really help us to explain why we get bit in the tail at times? Well, for one thing, it indicates that we shouldn't blame ourselves for everything that happens to us. Part of the crap that life dishes out to us simply goes with the territory of being human. Jerry S. Mfember, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:05:23 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Causation vs Ramdomness Message-ID: <199707301709.NAA16313@NetGSI.com> >My hunch is that causation and randomness, like spirit and matter, >never exist purely, but always mixed with the other, so that nothing >is ever purely caused or purely random. Tom, I agree with your hunch. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 17:08:52 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Dolphins and ARE Message-ID: <199707302108.RAA05223@leo.vsla.edu> This weekend I was in Chesapeake (next door to Virginia Beach) and read a cover story in the local section of the newspaper about the annual dolphin count last Saturday. Scores of volunteers are placed at 39 locations along Virginia's coast (some out in boats), armed with binoculars and counting dolphins. The average count is about 400 adults and 25 newborns. What was striking about the story in light of ARE is that the north end of Virginia Beach is the major center for dolphins in the state, a small area that they return to every year for calving. So when you are looking out the window of the meditation room, you are looking at the dolphin mecca of the region. I just wonder if the same "forces" that caused the readings to insist that Cayce move to Virginia Beach might impel the dolphins to the same spot. Just got wind of a "kayak with the dolphins" tour which some friends of mine and I are planning to sign up for. Surfer friends have told me how friendly the dolphins are; described how often they ride waves with one dolphin on each side of them deliberately accompanying them through the ride. I hope the critters like kayakers as much as they do surfers. One thing about the readings which bothers me is the denial that animals have individual souls. In the case of dolphins and several other species, this just doesn't ring true. I'll check the CD-ROM to see if anyone ever asked Cayce specifically about dolphin intelligence. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:14:29 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Heinz dead, Elaine not Message-ID: <199707302209.SAA19446@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: K. Paul Johnson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Heinz dead, Elaine not > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 7:55 AM > > Keith referred to Elaine Pagels falling off a cliff but that > was her husband Heinz, quite a few years back. Elaine's fine > AFAIK. Stephan Hoeller will be glad to hear that, not to mention the whole gnostic community.. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:10:53 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <199707302209.SAA19454@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 5:23 PM > > At 03:34 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Doss wrote: > > > I feel that Internet is finally going to take Theosophy into > every home. just like TV and exiciting days are ahead but not necessarily > exponential increase in memberships in T organizations. > Take Theosophy into every home? The last time I saw Theosophy on TV was on an episode of Sliders and that show's been cancelled. Good ole Theosophy shows up here and there in snips and dabs, but the variety of TV is devoted to sensationalism, tawdry talk shows, redundant soaps and lurid TV movies. Perhaps if Theosophy is going to appear in every home, it better negotiate with Ted Turner and buy it's own cable channel. Or maybe satellite! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:55:36 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Pagels alive Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730155536.006b9c84@pacbell.net> At 07:47 PM 7/29/97 -0400, Keith wrote: > > >Keith: I'm glad to hear about Elaine and sorry to hear it was Heinz. Yes, it >was in his book THE COSMIC CODE in which he debunked the attempt to marry >quantum physics (the lower physical plane) to the spirtual/ buddhic/ relgious/ >plane (one of the higher planes) bypassing the biological and to some extent >the intellectual. His main point, I believe is that the microcosmic world of >cosmic physics is much like the macrocosmic world of the atomic world of the >stars and our sun, but the mesocosmic world is a world of statistics where all >the cosmic/quatumn fuzziness gets washed away into the all to specific world >of the senses which is Maya when compared to the micro and macro. > >Enough already >Keith Not hardly. After all, I sit patiently through discussions I have no interest in or am tired of without implying that they should end. First of all, I referred to the quantum level as a possible "transition zone" from the dense physical plane. I did not try to wed it to the buddhic or whatever plane which would be lucridously bypassing all of the planes in between. I wasn't thinking of a transition to anything less dense than the etheric, not even the astral level. Thirdly, Pagel is only one of many physicists and in this, as in many things, YMMV. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:02:06 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Shortened Hairy Issues Message-ID: <33DFE40E.4DB7@gil.net> Oh me oh my !!! Forgive my tardiness in consigning an older TS-L issue to the trash. I've just about caught up with the digests. Low and behold, Something I may help with has been raised. In an aside, in a private post to K. Smith, trying to make a minor point I did tell her that I observed a 'Lock' of soiled, dusty white hair purported to have been that of HSO. I was shown the ribboned 'artifact' with some reverence being assigned to its placement (next to a ring, stated as having been HPB's, along with other trinkets, trading beads and adornments), this when I was at Wheaton in June. The 'Key' I thought that would explain my raising the point was apparently misunderstood by the recipient. It's there folks. Certainly out President may or may not comment as he sees fit. The bibelot has a prominent place on the top shelf in glass fronted chiffonnier. The piece itself backs the window side of John's sumptuous office. The office has by the way a magnificent view of the front lawns. Others may struggle for sufficient working space, complain about inadequate ventilation, and pass back to front between desks, but not our President. His office suite is quite comfortable. A bit musty, but plush and undisturbed. To those of you wanting a quick fix around the ears, trust me, any DNA available in that dust collector has been returned to its original state of undifferentiated matter. As to 'Vibes', well, not being able to say for sure what was indeed happening, I can report I did suffer from immediate post nasal drip. This was accompanied by, sneezing, watering eyes and other minor discomforts. Interestingly enough, all my ills abated when the door was closed and I left John's office. To some degree, my companion ( a well known, more refined, and I may add diplomatic Theosophist ) appeared to have had a similar experience. Walking down to the first floor, we did discuss the genesis of the term "Ossified Theosophist". It has been bandied about over the years and we never had quite determined it origins until that short but pungent stop. In closing, I do hope this note has with sharpened information cut the matter down to size and clears up any question ( why, there should be is unfathomable ) that may have grown. Then again, what of it anyway. My collectables still include a toy truck or two from my youth, and I know my Baseball Cards (unseen for decades) include a signed Ted Williams, Bobby Doer, and Dom Dimaggio. My peace profound Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:18:30 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <199707310115.VAA08663@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 12:12 PM > > At 08:49 AM 7/29/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: > > >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at > >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > > > >A. Safron > > What else do you expect? > > Any one who dares to support this list may not have a job at Olcott, IMHO! > I guess when you work for any corporation, one is expected to uphold the dignity and careful facade of the company, to keep up the public image. Such I expect. Frankly, I just couldn't do it. The wild Leo rising inside of me felt penned in if I couldn't say what I want and I expect that others feel the same way. YA GOTTA BE WHAT YOU ARE! Or as they say, be true to yourself. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:22:00 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <199707310115.VAA08672@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Annual Meeting > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 3:50 PM > > A. Safron asked: > > >What about the lecture about female adepts? > > That's a hot one! My favorite verse from "The Gospel of Thomas" is > when Jesus told his disciples to go and preach to women, so that they > might become male like them. Praise the Lord! I had various bawdy answers to this post, Tom, but decided to keep it under my . . . My suspicious about your opinions about women is that you really love them - to the nth degree. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:28:25 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <199707310115.VAA08681@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Bart Lidofsky > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Annual Meeting > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 12:00 PM > > > What about the lecture about female adepts? > > A) Carol Ward is an excellent lecturer; she is certainly welcome to > speak at the New York Lodge at any time. > > B) The lecture went into the question of what is an adept in the first > place. In any case, the conclusion was that certainly there are female > adepts (several were mentioned, but not by name, in the Mahatma > Letters). It was also postulated that, since adepts take the form in > which best to do their work, and in the past males were allowed by > culture to do more than females, that adepts used male bodies purely for > convenience's sake. Yes, I'd heard this before and it makes sense to me. As the the age rolls on, I imagine that will change as women take on more positions of power. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:58:00 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Some funnies. Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730155800.006b9c84@pacbell.net> At 09:25 PM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >I thought some of these might be appreciated. A little humor goes a long >way...:-) > >--- >Jaqi. > >ACTUAL Announcements Taken from Church Bulletins: > Jaqi, it did go a long way!! Directly into my humor file!!!!! Thanks!! :-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:58:02 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: To Dare & Try Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730185802.006d36f4@pacbell.net> At 05:33 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Jerry wrote: >Doss, I have no problem with what you are saying. We all >have to start somewhere, and ethics is probably the best >first step anyone can take. My problem is with theosophists >who seem to think that this first step is all there is; that >we have to sign up with some guru and undergo trials >and tribulates as a chela in order to go further. This is not >true. First obtain ethics, then compasion, and then study >occult laws, etc. and then practice practice practice. Living >gurus are no longer necessary, IMHO. The whole occult >teaching of DARE and TRY seems to be ignored by today's >theosophists. Am I wrong? Jerry, Great points! Perhaps it's because of the generally limited attention span and desire for instant gratification that is so prevalent in our culture now days. Just a thought. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:03:43 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Some funnies Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970730190343.006d8474@pacbell.net> At 05:33 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Keith wrote: > > > >Talk about the air, does anyone know when Jupiter goes direct? There are some >pretty strange astrological things happening. Keith, It goes direct on Oct 8, 1997. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 02:15:51 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Brothers of the Shadows of Fear Message-ID: Satanists, as far as I know, exalt the ego more than any god or goddess. They are the true Black Brothers that HPB talks about. They do NOT worship the devil in any Christian sense, but DO try to immortalize the ego or personal self, which IMHO is much worse. Jerry S. Member, TI Keith: Ah, here is the problem again - is the ego, the bad guy, or the selfish INSTINTCTS, which the ego seeks to gratify at the expense of self and others. Black magic, 10 times out of 10, backfires of the sorceror's apprentice. I think of alcohol, drugs, violence and their use by gangs as low black magic. Then you have the more subtle which is almost indistiguishable from the unselfishness of white magic. I think we all have our opinions on this, but it appears that most "Satanists" are far to selfish to keep a group going for very long unless it is our of fear and coercion. I think of the fascist regimes which use fear and turning in your neighbor to rule a country. Peru, I think, had or has a horrible regime that replaced a Communist regime. Anyway, we are very luck to be able to talk about all these things openly. I think it is easy to get the idea that the Masters are quasi-angels and the brothers of the shadows quasi-demons, but called or uncalled the archetypes will be there (to misquote the motto over Jung's door). By the way, has anyone seen THE CONFORMIST (Bernardo Berolucci). It was a life changing film for me. It is about a failed intellectual/liberal who joins the fascists and is ordered to kill his former philosophy professor. He marries a beautiful, but rather stupid women just to conform etc. THe message is that the only way to survive in a fascist environment of "double binds" is to live totallly ironically detached, be stupid, use drugs or go insane. Or live in a cave... Plato's cave of shadows - illusion - art Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:08:33 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Shortened Hairy Issues Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970731040833.00ec73c0@mail.eden.com> At 09:04 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Ken Malkin wrote: >Oh me oh my !!! > >Forgive my tardiness in consigning an older TS-L issue to the trash. >I've just about caught up with the digests. Low and behold, Something I >may help with has been raised. > >In an aside, in a private post to K. Smith, trying to make a minor point >I did tell her that I observed a 'Lock' of soiled, dusty white hair >purported to have been that of HSO. I was shown the ribboned 'artifact' >with some reverence being assigned to its placement (next to a ring, >stated as having been HPB's, along with other trinkets, trading beads >and adornments), this when I was at Wheaton in June. The 'Key' I thought >that would explain my raising the point was apparently misunderstood by >the recipient. > >It's there folks. Certainly out President may or may not comment as he >sees fit. The bibelot has a prominent place on the top shelf in glass >fronted chiffonnier. The piece itself backs the window side of John's >sumptuous office. The office has by the way a magnificent view of the >front lawns. Others may struggle for sufficient working space, complain >about inadequate ventilation, and pass back to front between desks, but >not our President. His office suite is quite comfortable. A bit musty, >but plush and undisturbed. > >To those of you wanting a quick fix around the ears, trust me, any DNA >available in that dust collector has been returned to its original state >of undifferentiated matter. > >As to 'Vibes', well, not being able to say for sure what was indeed >happening, I can report I did suffer from immediate post nasal drip. >This was accompanied by, sneezing, watering eyes and other minor >discomforts. Interestingly enough, all my ills abated when the door was >closed and I left John's office. > >To some degree, my companion ( a well known, more refined, and I may add >diplomatic Theosophist ) appeared to have had a similar experience. >Walking down to the first floor, we did discuss the genesis of the term >"Ossified Theosophist". It has been bandied about over the years and we >never had quite determined it origins until that short but pungent stop. > >In closing, I do hope this note has with sharpened information cut the >matter down to size and clears up any question ( why, there should be is >unfathomable ) that may have grown. > >Then again, what of it anyway. My collectables still include a toy truck >or two from my youth, and I know my Baseball Cards (unseen for decades) >include a signed Ted Williams, Bobby Doer, and Dom Dimaggio. > >My peace profound >Ken Malkin > Very interesting. I am wondering what other relics are preserved at Olcott. I am sure Olcott himself if he were to resurrect today, IMHO, he would be very shocked to find his hair being preserved as a "holy" relic. Anyone out there with any knowledge. If someone wants to provide tip offs/info and also retain their anonymity (their livelyhood may be at risk), can send me e-mail at ramadoss@eden.com. MKRamadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:11:01 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970731041101.00e16f54@mail.eden.com> At 06:12 PM 7/30/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version >> Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 5:23 PM >> >> At 03:34 PM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >Doss wrote: >> > >> I feel that Internet is finally going to take Theosophy into >> every home. just like TV and exiciting days are ahead but not necessarily >> exponential increase in memberships in T organizations. >> >Take Theosophy into every home? The last time I saw Theosophy on TV was on >an episode of Sliders and that show's been cancelled. Good ole Theosophy >shows up here and there in snips and dabs, but the variety of TV is devoted to >sensationalism, tawdry talk shows, redundant soaps and lurid TV movies. >Perhaps if Theosophy is going to appear in every home, it better negotiate >with Ted Turner and buy it's own cable channel. Or maybe satellite! > >A. Safron > > In very subtle ways, Hollywood has presented some of the "theosophical" ideas in their movies. Some innovative person may come out with a creative solution to taking Theosophy to every man, woman and child with the use of Internet. Just my wishful thinking I suppose. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:19:21 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970731041921.00ed833c@mail.eden.com> At 09:15 PM 7/30/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Rumpled sheets >> Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 12:12 PM >> >> At 08:49 AM 7/29/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >> >> >that would be true. But my personal conversations with others at >> >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. >> > >> >A. Safron >> >> What else do you expect? >> >> Any one who dares to support this list may not have a job at Olcott, IMHO! >> >I guess when you work for any corporation, one is expected to uphold the >dignity and careful facade of the company, to keep up the public image. >Such I expect. Frankly, I just couldn't do it. The wild Leo rising inside of >me felt penned in if I couldn't say what I want and I expect that others feel >the same way. YA GOTTA BE WHAT YOU ARE! Or as they say, be >true to yourself. > >A. Safron Every organization loves to have *conformist* and such conformism is enforced by various means -- primarily fear -- fear of livelyhood, fear of loss of position, fear of *spiritual* progress whatever that may mean, fear of other means. It is the same technique that religion has used from beginning of time to keep the faithful in line. So this is nothing new. Organizations will find independent minded people who think for themselves difficult to deal with, because they will be unpredictable. But great things have been achieved not by conformists but those who are willing to take the risk and take independent actions/stands, however unacceptable or unpopular at that time and it takes a lot of courage and may have to face potential difficulties. But in the end such daring ones are the ones which make a change in bettering the conditions of common folks. So you are in excellent company. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:58:18 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <33E02978.435@withoutwalls.com> In message <199707291249.IAA28696@newman.concentric.net>, "A. Safron" writes >my personal conversations with others at >Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. It's nice to know that they hold such an enlightened view of humanity. What an uplifting and inspiring use of the mind. What an ideal of brotherhood. What a fine use of the science of the immaculate conception. I feel so respectful and reverential toward these courageous leaders of men. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:02:50 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Open-mindedness is self-righteous? Message-ID: <199707310502.XAA07390@mailmx.micron.net> Keith wrote: > [Kym] Could it be we've given in to self-righteousness in being so open-minded? >Keith: I think I know what you mean, but isn't it usually the other way >around. Probably not. Many people pride themselves so much on being "open-minded" that they dismiss those they have judged as "not open-minded" and any ideas put forth by those same "closed-minded" folk. >Those that want an investigation, and inquisition, punishment are the self- >righeous ones. I do find your use of the term "inquisition" interesting. However, the insinuation of the word "inquisition" has not gone unnoticed - although I am unsure in what context you are using it. >May be I am a little naive, pretentious, and self satisfied in >that I think I can forgive and forget, Maybe you can "forgive and forget" - but we never know until we are tested - and even then, it doesn't mean we are able to in every instance. >I think it goes back to the idea that we have a rebel psychology, even if >hidden under the ample and prudish skirts of the TSA. Who are the "we" you are referring to here? Since the TSA is made up of Theosophists, it sounds like you are saying some Theosophists are "prudish" and others have a "rebel psychology." >In other words, we want >to go against the general culture and old time religions because we feel >justified, a little bettter than the bumkin Christians ... Again, the "we" are? Theosophists in general? >I lifted my skirts a litttle.... it's your turn Kym .... Would love to - but, actually, I'm a little lost in what message you are trying to convey in this post. I have the impression that you are NOT pleased with the vocalizing of my outrage regarding CWL and the TS - as you've made previous similiar comments on that subject. Does that apply here? I would have liked to respond to your post more definitively, but I feel I need to understand more clearly where it is you're coming from. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:11:30 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <199707310511.XAA07713@mailmx.micron.net> Mark wrote: >>[A. Safron] my personal conversations with others at >>Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. >It's nice to know that they hold such an enlightened view of humanity. >What an uplifting and inspiring use of the mind. What an ideal of >brotherhood. What a fine use of the science of the immaculate >conception. I feel so respectful and reverential toward these courageous >leaders of men. My heart goes out to you men. The courageous leaders of women would never sink so low. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:22:25 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <199707310522.WAA17489@palrel3.hp.com> "Jerry Schueler" wrote: > The main argument to HPB is her "sickly sweet" ethics, which are religious > in tone rather than magical or occult. Her ethical tone (which I do not > like) is NOT necessary. It seems that you attach a lot to the word "ethics" that I don't. Ethics does not exclude compassion, nor does it imply seeing things in black and white. "Sickly sweet" is what I use to describe hypocritical, false compassion. True compassion also has a bit of salt in it. "If the salt hath lost its savor, thenceforth it shall be good for nothing ..." > Plain common sense is all that is needed to make one develop compassion. It takes a lot more than that. At a minimum it takes strenuous self-honesty that engages your whole being, and a will to love in spite of the bruises you receive. > The BIG PROBLEM with her tone is that it encourages a sense of right and > wrong, and this is exactly why the Masters said in the MLs that religion is > the primary scourge of mankind. Religion for the sake of religion is what has been a scourge of mankind. Religious wars have come not over ethics, but because they wanted to defend their creed. Creed and ethics are different. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:37:07 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Quantum Theosophy Message-ID: <199707310537.WAA19104@palrel3.hp.com> "Jerry Schueler" wrote: > If the cause of any event is known or guessed, then it is not a > synchronicity. By definition, a synchronicity only occurs as a > noncausal event--an event for which no known cause can be found. I'm positing that there are no noncausal events. The fact that no cause can be found need not mean there is no cause. Jung called synchronicity acausal because the events he witnessed could not be related by any imaginable physical causal chain. Theosophy talks about laws governing less gross forms of matter. Jung was rather practical when it came to his concepts. He coined terms and introduced philosophical concepts as a practical frame to deal with his patients problems. He was more than willing to toss them out when he found something more useful. > As above so below is true in magic, occultism and theosophy. If > it is proved that noncausal events happen at the quantum level, > then it seems reasonable to assume that they can happen as well > at all levels. I beieve that they do, and on our everyday level I > have called them events caused by the Chaos Factor, which is > to say acausal. In a theosophical sense, they are caused by > our collective karma--there is no personal karma to cause the > event. If they are caused by collective karma, I don't think acausal is a very good word for them. >> It seems to me that Quantum Mechanics only does away with >> determinism as it relates to individual events. The wave function >> itself that governs probabilities of individual events strictly obeys >> causality. > This is equivalent to saying that we can do away with our > personal karma--which is true enough; its called jivamukta. > Yes, the wave function is deterministic at the quantum level. > The "collapse of the wave function" only occurs when the > event is brought back to our everyday level--when it is > observed by a human observer. So we can say that > collective karma is deterministic at the collective level, > but is nondeterministic at the individual level. Does this > really help us to explain why we get bit in the tail at times? > Well, for one thing, it indicates that we shouldn't blame > ourselves for everything that happens to us. Part of the > crap that life dishes out to us simply goes with the > territory of being human. If you want to put it that way. We can, however, use the crap as fertilizer. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:00:40 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Annual Meeting Message-ID: <34094478.13052871@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> A. Safron wrote: >> From: Tom Robertson >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Annual Meeting >> Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 3:50 PM >> A. Safron asked: >> >What about the lecture about female adepts? >> That's a hot one! My favorite verse from "The Gospel of Thomas" is >> when Jesus told his disciples to go and preach to women, so that they >> might become male like them. Praise the Lord! >I had various bawdy answers to this post, Tom, but decided to >keep it under my . . . That's disappointing. But then, I couldn't think of any snappy comeback that would have compared with what I wrote, so you're probably just taking the easy way out. >My suspicious about your opinions about women is that >you really love them - to the nth degree. > >A. Safron I thought I had hidden it better than that. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:19:31 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970731121931.00d2f65c@mail.eden.com> >>>[A. Safron] my personal conversations with others at >>>Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. Another possible view. No one likes competition, especially an open and a vigorous one at that. Also every organization, even in a capitalist society, tends to like monopoly. So this should not surprise any one. ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:23:05 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Clone the curl Message-ID: <199707311246.IAA08529@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Clone the curl > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 7:56 PM > > At 07:47 PM 7/29/97 -0400, JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > >I know how to solve everything. Let's clone HPB, and Olcott and KrishnaJi and > >CWL and ask them what happened. But then some would haven't anything to talk > >about. I for one am looking forward to the next millenium and could almost > >care less about 1888. > > Why does this remind me of Jurassic Park? Maybe you wouldn't like anything they'd have to say? Maybe you'd find out they were a bunch of very strange people and your illusions would destroyed. Beware that mosquito in the amber! A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:39:04 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Crank call Message-ID: <199707311246.IAA08535@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: K. Paul Johnson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Crank call > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 4:34 PM > > Hi gang-- > > Yesterday I got a weird call from a Theosophist I had seen once > for about 5 minutes in the last 9 years. > C: Goodbye Paul, you're still a prick. > END > Perhaps this is the reason why membership is plummeting in the TS organizations. When you have to deal with a certified nut rather than an intelligent speaker, one just throws up one's hands and goes elsewhere. After all, who needs it. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:14:14 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Crank call Message-ID: <33E08FA6.3446@eden.com> > From: K. Paul Johnson > > To: Multiple recipients of list > > Subject: Crank call > > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 4:34 PM > > > > Hi gang-- > > > > Yesterday I got a weird call from a Theosophist I had seen once > > for about 5 minutes in the last 9 years. > > > C: Goodbye Paul, you're still a prick. > > END One more evidence that in spite of exposure all the wonderful information which should lead one to search for Truth -- what ever that may be -- rather than clinging on to *second* hand information and trying to impose them on others. Also this person took the trouble to spend his dime to call you. If at all, one thing he should have done is to first inquire of you if you are tied up or it is a good time to call. Looks like this person does not seem to have even the common common sense and the manners expected of any civilized person. Just reminds me of the fundmentalist type we all have seen. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:57:19 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <199707311323.JAA13683@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A. > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: RE: Simplistic Teaching. > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 4:21 PM > > Be at peace, too, Einar, but it is amazing that for all the short simple posts at the beginning of this, you managed to ramble on to some complicated and difficult writing that made my head spin. > Perhaps this is your mode of communication. > > A. Safron > > Oh, My God. I thought I could hear a head spin all the way over here! Be careful what you read, Anne. :-} > Perhaps it comes from my upbringing in a working class neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. Simplicity reigned because that's a as far as people could go. Many girls married before graduating high school, because of pregnancy. Few had money for even a junior college. A job as a stock boy or at a drug store was considered the height of sucess. Gangs were the thing, even then, and you could often hear gunshots in the middle of the night. These things are imbedded in my soul and I always wonder how the Ageless Wisdom can be translated to them. Peace, A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:27:02 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <199707311323.JAA13700@mcfeely.concentric.net> ---------- > From: kymsmith@micron.net > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: re: Doggie Doo > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 12:11 AM > > Mark wrote: > > >>[A. Safron] my personal conversations with others at > >>Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. > > >It's nice to know that they hold such an enlightened view of humanity. > >What an uplifting and inspiring use of the mind. What an ideal of > >brotherhood. What a fine use of the science of the immaculate > >conception. I feel so respectful and reverential toward these courageous > >leaders of men. > > My heart goes out to you men. The courageous leaders of women would never > sink so low. Like Annie Besant. But the doggie doo issue really deals with the fact that the participants of Theos-l are saying things that the adminstration would rather not have said. Nor do they care for the historical exposes. It's a battle between the public image and the full truth. No doubt going on all over the Net. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:17:24 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970731161724.006cc464@mail.eden.com> At 09:23 AM 7/31/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: kymsmith@micron.net >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: re: Doggie Doo >> Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 12:11 AM >> >> Mark wrote: >> >> >>[A. Safron] my personal conversations with others at >> >>Olcott say that this mailing list is considered less than doggie doo. >> >> >It's nice to know that they hold such an enlightened view of humanity. >> >What an uplifting and inspiring use of the mind. What an ideal of >> >brotherhood. What a fine use of the science of the immaculate >> >conception. I feel so respectful and reverential toward these courageous >> >leaders of men. >> >> My heart goes out to you men. The courageous leaders of women would never >> sink so low. > >Like Annie Besant. But the doggie doo issue really deals with the fact >that the participants of Theos-l are saying things that the adminstration >would rather not have said. Nor do they care for the historical >exposes. It's a battle between the public image and the full truth. >No doubt going on all over the Net. > >A. Safron You are on the money. In all the history of TS since 1875, they have never seen any medium like Internet with its openness and speed and its worldwide coverage. It is 180 degrees from what has been the traditional way of communication viz controlled official publications distributed at the lowest snail speed. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:17:25 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970731161725.006ce08c@mail.eden.com> At 09:23 AM 7/31/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >---------- >> From: Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A. >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: RE: Simplistic Teaching. >> Date: Tuesday, July 29, 1997 4:21 PM >> >> Be at peace, too, Einar, but it is amazing that for all the short simple posts at the >beginning of this, you managed to ramble on to some complicated and difficult writing that >made my head spin. >> Perhaps this is your mode of communication. >> >> A. Safron >> >> Oh, My God. I thought I could hear a head spin all the way over here! Be careful what you >read, Anne. :-} >> >Perhaps it comes from my upbringing in a working class neighborhood on the South Side of >Chicago. Simplicity reigned because that's a as far as people could go. Many girls married >before >graduating high school, because of pregnancy. Few had money for even a junior college. A job >as a stock boy or at a drug store was considered the height of sucess. Gangs were the thing, >even then, and you could often hear gunshots in the middle of the night. > >These things are imbedded in my soul and I always wonder how the Ageless Wisdom can be >translated to them. > >Peace, > >A. Safron You have touched on one of the most critical problems that is facing this country in every city and perhaps every country in the world. All the talk about consciousness and globes and rounds and manvantaras and how the solar system was created shows the comprehensive nature of the doctrines of Theosophy. But how when we see all the problems, any theosophist is going to ask what can be done to address the immediate problem, not something that can be taken care of in the next life..... I think this is an area where all of us can brain storm and come up with some simple things or projects that may make a little difference in the communities we all live in. It brings to my mind what HPB & HSO did when they got to India as well as later when Annie Besant went to India, One of the things that was done was to open up the first school for the *untouchable* children who lived in the slums near Adyar. The children were *not* taught the Ageless Wisdom, but were taught to take a bath in the morning, how to wash clothes and the importance of simple hygiene. Besant was reputed as the greatest orator of her day, in addition to her speeches and writings, immersed herself in the Indian Freedom movement as well as establishing a chain of educational institutions. The result was the TS Branches and membership grew in leaps and bounds. After Annie Besant, I have not seen much of any activity in the practical side of Theosophy. May be it is time for all of us to think about it. In the past several years, the only person in the TSA administration who seems to have mentioned about the issue of how to take Theosophy to those who can most benefit by it is Tim Boyd who is from Chicago. I recall his making a statement in this connection several years ago. I think it was in his published statement when he ran for the office of Directorship. But I have not seen anything else from anyone in recent years. ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:14:19 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Digest 1151 Message-ID: <970731131415_-390240506@emout19.mail.aol.com> I read with some interest various comments contributed by Gisele and Keith and published in Digest 1151. Herewith, a couple of my own: 1. My experience with Theosophists in general has been that, while they pay "lip service" to the concept of The First Fundamental, they are decidedly uncomfortable with it. First off, they don't understand it (but then who does?) and, secondly, they are not at all happy with the prospect of ultimately losing (merging, actually) their individualities. Which, I suppose, is why they have difficulty contemplating such concepts as a "Group Soul" or "Oversoul." Fine for animals, of course, but not for us vastly superior human beings. We deserve better than that! Right? Reluctantly, Theosophists (and just about everyone else come to think of it) accept the idea that they will sooner or later lose their physical bodies. Then Theosophists go a step further and envision their astral bodies slowly dissipating following physical death. They (or at least some of them) can even deal with the loss of what theosophy terms "The Lower Quaternary." But their individuality? Hey, c'mon, the line has got to be drawn somewhere. How, they say, can I possibly give up my individuality and still exist as me? Nevertheless, if one delves deeply enough into the theosophical literature, that (the concept of ultimate Unity) is the conclusion that will be reached --- just as it was by Blavatsky and Judge and numerous others who have gone before. So why should Theosophists be distressed about Group Souls and Clones and all the rest of it? Perhaps because, at heart, they are a little terrified of some of the ideas that theosophy propounds. Certainly most other people are ... which is why conventional Christian gatherings tend to be so large and theosophical gatherings so small. The former announce that you can be WITH God. The latter states (after you delve into it deeply enough) that you ARE God. 2. Regarding the various "CWL" comments, I consider it a little ironic that, had he had a proclivity for nicotine, society would have accomodated him. It still does today despite the appalling destructiveness of cigarettes. Or alcohol? There are liquor stores everywhere. Sadistic tendencies? Try professional hockey or, better still, boxing. It would appear that CWL's misfortune was to have virtually the only proclivity (i.e. homosexualtiy) that society to date has beee unwilling to accomodate. But even that is slowly changing (witness all the "Gay Pride" parades of late). Perhaps CWL's major fault was to incarnate a few decades too soon. As Keith would say --- NAMASTE --- Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:15:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Open-mindedness is self righeous? Message-ID: <970731131556_1016748807@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-30 17:34:03 EDT, you write: > In other words, we want >to go against the general culture and old time religions because we feel >justified, a little bettter than the bumkin Christians ... We don't feel we're better. We KNOW we're better. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:19:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Some funnies Message-ID: <970731131921_-1105890936@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-30 22:11:26 EDT, you write: > ROFL .... THanks Jaqui, I really laughed out loud this morning! You >know, I like the HODGE PODGE LODGE at Summer School the one time I saw it. >It >took some pretty irreverant pot shots at theosophy, the TSA, and all to the >good and really helped clear the air. > > Somebody actually thinks the Hodge Podge Lodge is funny? Now that is truly scary. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:22:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Crank call Message-ID: <970731132223_786465417@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-30 22:38:50 EDT, you write: >This guy may be notorious for weird phone calls to people he >hasn't seen or spoken to in years, for all I know. Was a ULT >member last I knew. I'm just reporting the conversation as an >example of the bizarre expectations people have of authors. >Expecting someone to explain his writings to you because you >are too hostile towards him to read them yourself really takes the >cake. Not the first such treatment I've gotten from a ULT >member, by the way. It comes with the territory. I remember one call I got from a pest who began the conversation by saying "I don't like your morals." To which I responded, "Well, that's odd, considering I don't have any." The loons we shall always have with us. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:30:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <970731132959_951102733@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-30 22:39:11 EDT, you write: > (Chuck, I think, will back me up) Consider yourself backed up. The problem with the material is that it was written for good Victorians who, if they were told the truth about the value-free universe would have freaked seriously bad. Whenever anyone attempts to take materials out of the temporal context in which they were written they get into real trouble because ideas change and things that the Victorians would have considered great virtues our period, would, for the most part, consider great silliness if not downright evil. It should be borne in mind that most of the philosophical movements that influenced this century grew up as a violent reaction to precisely those concepts of virtue. There is something about the Victorian ideal that offends the human soul. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:34:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <970731133413_2094017935@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-30 23:15:38 EDT, you write: >Perhaps if Theosophy is going to appear in every home, it better negotiate >with Ted Turner and buy it's own cable channel. Or maybe satellite! > > I'm getting a nasty idea here. Does anyone remember Gene Scott? We can have a chorus singing "Kill some piss ants for Blavatsky" over and over again until the donations come in. Or, in honor of Johnny's obsession with Masonry (witness his book reviews) "Kill some puissants for Blavatsky." Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:37:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Wiccans and Satanists--to Keith Message-ID: <970731133722_1846084496@emout10.mail.aol.com> Well, I know Wiccans and I know Satanists and I prefer the Satanists any day. Satanists know how to party while Wiccans make me want go out and help little old ladies half-way across the street and let the speeding truck do the rest. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:38:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Group Karma Message-ID: <970731133823_1482260657@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-31 00:15:25 EDT, you write: >So does HPB. G. de Purucker goes into detail about this. Even the TSs >have their group karma. > > A terrifying thought. Good thing I don't believe in Karma. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:43:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Shortened Hairy Issues Message-ID: <970731134304_-723961965@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-31 05:18:09 EDT, you write: >I am sure Olcott himself if he were to resurrect today, IMHO, he would be >very shocked to find his hair being preserved as a "holy" relic. > > Well, as he got older, he may not have been surprised. The younger Olcott would not have gotten older because he would have laughed so hard he would have caused internal bleeding and died. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:44:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Crank call Message-ID: <970731134444_-938254444@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-31 09:03:06 EDT, you write: > When you have to deal with a certified nut Was he certified by the Olcott Institution? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:05:41 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: DSArthur on CWL Message-ID: <199707311805.MAA06175@mailmx.micron.net> Dennis wrote: > 2. Regarding the various "CWL" comments, I consider it a little >ironic that, had he had a proclivity for nicotine, society would have >accomodated him. It still does today despite the appalling destructiveness >of cigarettes. Or alcohol? There are liquor stores everywhere. Sadistic >tendencies? Try professional hockey or, better still, boxing. It would >appear that CWL's misfortune was to have virtually the only proclivity (i.e. >homosexualtiy) that society to date has beee unwilling to accomodate. But >even that is slowly changing (witness all the "Gay Pride" parades of late). >Perhaps CWL's major fault was to incarnate a few decades too soon. As Keith >would say --- NAMASTE --- Hello Dennis? The complaint about CWL is NOT homosexuality - it's about CWL being a CHILD MOLESTER. And your comparisons to "nicotine," "hockey," etc. . .make no sense at all in this context. You're statement "Perhaps CWL's major fault was to incarnate a few decades too soon" is semi-on-the-money (I differ with you on his major fault) - but if he had been incarnated a few decades later, maybe a REAL investigation could have taken place by a neutral party - and CWL would have been completely exonerated or imprisoned - either way, there would have been closure. Anyway, you've missed the point completely. Dammit. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:06:48 -0400 From: Vincent Beall Subject: New to the List... Message-ID: <33E0D438.4580@dmv.com> Hello everyone. This is certainly an active list, and one that has some earmarks of healthy argument. The discourse between Jerry and Titus has caught my interest, and it has been very welcome to find concern for ethics, and a search for the higher self as might be reflected in the "magical" behavior of subatomic particles. This list seems to be unmoderated which is only appropriate, and would follow from HPB's ideas of good theosophy. There is a "Theosophy Lodge Online" web site where discussions of theosophy were offered, but not only did they intend to moderate the discussion; they insisted on choosing the topics. Needless to say noone responded. Well, anyway its nice to be here! Vincent -- vincent@dmv.com http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:40:38 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Shortened Hairy Issues Message-ID: <199707311836.OAA23129@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Shortened Hairy Issues > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 11:11 PM > > At 09:04 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Ken Malkin wrote: > >Oh me oh my !!! > >the recipient. > > > > I am wondering what other relics are preserved at Olcott. > HPB's corset, her pipe and whatever remains of her ancient smoking mixture. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:44:38 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: New to the List... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970731194438.00f0b388@mail.eden.com> At 02:07 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Vincent Beall wrote: >Hello everyone. > >This is certainly an active list, and one that has some earmarks of >healthy argument. > >The discourse between Jerry and Titus has caught my interest, and it has >been very welcome to find concern for ethics, and a search for the >higher self as might be reflected in the "magical" behavior of subatomic >particles. > >This list seems to be unmoderated which is only appropriate, and would >follow from HPB's ideas of good theosophy. There is a "Theosophy Lodge >Online" web site where discussions of theosophy were offered, but not >only did they intend to moderate the discussion; they insisted on >choosing the topics. Needless to say noone responded. > >Well, anyway its nice to be here! > >Vincent >-- > >vincent@dmv.com > >http://home.dmv.com/~vincent/ > Glad to see your feedback. Moderation/Censorship/Control/Editing or whatever word we use to restrict free speech on Internet is totally alient to the fundamental nature of Internet. Coming from a traditional background where such inbuilt free nature is inbuilt, it will take quite some time to get used to it. Time will take care of it, because Internet is a juggernaut which is unstoppable. Feel free to post anything you want and we are all eagerly looking forward to it. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:44:53 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: To Dare & Try Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970731194453.00eba088@mail.eden.com> At 05:33 PM 7/30/97 -0400, Jerry Schueler wrote: >>For most of us like myself -- who are rookies in this matter and perhaps >not >>having taken even 1/100th of a step, even a single step is something to >look >>forward to. I always try to take one step at a time! >> >>......doss > > >Doss, I have no problem with what you are saying. We all >have to start somewhere, and ethics is probably the best >first step anyone can take. My problem is with theosophists >who seem to think that this first step is all there is; that >we have to sign up with some guru and undergo trials >and tribulates as a chela in order to go further. This is not >true I agree with your statement. The traditional "sheep" model that many find it convenient may be ok for them. On the other hand, anyone who had read ML to APS and some of HPB's writings, should understand the utter importance of being able to take matters into our own hands and set ourselves a direction right for ourselves keeping always in focus the primary objective of Theosophy - viz helping the suffering Humanity in whatever little way we can. HPB has also clearly stated that the job of TS is not to running a school for occultists -- which in practice many may sincerely believe. First obtain ethics, then compasion, and then study >occult laws, etc. and then practice practice practice. Living >gurus are no longer necessary, IMHO. The whole occult >teaching of DARE and TRY seems to be ignored by today's >theosophists. Am I wrong? > Better ethical standard -- not the traditional commonday ones, where anything goes so long as you don't get caught -- will go a long way to help everyone in everyday life. Who can question that high ethical standards will not help in our progress -- spiritual or otherwise. As for living Guru, I would rather term it like a friend who could work with you and can share with you and help you, without the status of Guru vs Chela, if one finds one, it is ok, if not, it should not bother one. My 2 cents. ...........doss >Jerry S. >Member, TI > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:17:34 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731131734.006d8424@pacbell.net> At 09:23 AM 7/31/97 -0400, Anne (I hope I got it right :-)) > >Like Annie Besant. But the doggie doo issue really deals with the fact >that the participants of Theos-l are saying things that the adminstration >would rather not have said. Nor do they care for the historical >exposes. It's a battle between the public image and the full truth. >No doubt going on all over the Net. I agree. That's why governments all over the world are desperately itching to control and limit access to it. Plus there was that whole Scientology thing where the "Church" of Scientology was extremely upset about messages posted to Usenet about the organization. I think that the Net is eventually cause BIG changes in organizations of all types. I love it!!!! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 16:36:16 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Pedophilia, not homosexuality Message-ID: <199707312036.QAA18927@leo.vsla.edu> In support of Kym's point. I once referred to CWL as gay to his biographer Greg Tillett. Tillett pointed out that there is absolutely no evidence that CWL was ever sexually attracted to or involved with any adult of either sex. Which means, in Tillett's view, that it is quite wrong to refer to him as a homosexual. He was a pedophile, which is a completely different category. He did NOT live ahead of his time. If he did now what he did then, he wouldn't get away with it. We have become more understanding of homosexuality, and more conscious of the damage wrought by pedophiles. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:39:41 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Digest 1151 Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731133941.006a33e0@pacbell.net> At 01:15 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Dennis wrote: > 2. Regarding the various "CWL" comments, I consider it a little >ironic that, had he had a proclivity for nicotine, society would have >accomodated him. It still does today despite the appalling destructiveness >of cigarettes. Huh? How have you missed the national jihad against smoking? Folks can't be satisfied with just pointing out the dangers of smoking and let people make their own decisions nor even stop at banning smoking in public. Nooooo. They have to try to FORCE everyone to quit, even in the privacy of their own homes where the issue of second-hand smoke is irrelevant. "Accomodating" my foot! >It would >appear that CWL's misfortune was to have virtually the only proclivity (i.e. >homosexualtiy) that society to date has beee unwilling to accomodate. But >even that is slowly changing (witness all the "Gay Pride" parades of late). >Perhaps CWL's major fault was to incarnate a few decades too soon. Pedophilia (molesting children) is not the same thing as homosexuality. You have confused a an activity that is a form of rape (children being under the age of consent) with consenting activity between adults. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:39:46 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <33E0F812.BD@eden.com> techndex@pacbell.net wrote: > > At 09:23 AM 7/31/97 -0400, Anne (I hope I got it right :-)) > > > >Like Annie Besant. But the doggie doo issue really deals with the fact > >that the participants of Theos-l are saying things that the adminstration > >would rather not have said. Nor do they care for the historical > >exposes. It's a battle between the public image and the full truth. > >No doubt going on all over the Net. > > I agree. That's why governments all over the world are desperately itching > to control and limit access to it. Plus there was that whole Scientology > thing where the "Church" of Scientology was extremely upset about messages > posted to Usenet about the organization. I think that the Net is eventually > cause BIG changes in organizations of all types. I love it!!!! > > Lynn some time ago, I believe it is Bahai group, that had some followers posting critical msgs ended up with the leadership throwing the posters out of their orgn. It is my belief that that the powers behind some of the greatest advances for the benefit of the humanity would be watching all these traffic and may view all of us like little children yet to grow up be able to deal with openness and freedom. the changes that internet is going to make to the organizations will be very fundamental and more far reaching than any of us can imagine. I am having a lot of fun seeing all the developments. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:19:52 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731141952.006d032c@pacbell.net> At 04:42 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Doss wrote: >techndex@pacbell.net wrote: >> >> I agree. That's why governments all over the world are desperately itching >> to control and limit access to it. Plus there was that whole Scientology >> thing where the "Church" of Scientology was extremely upset about messages >> posted to Usenet about the organization. I think that the Net is eventually >> cause BIG changes in organizations of all types. I love it!!!! >> >> Lynn > >some time ago, I believe it is Bahai group, that had some followers >posting critical msgs ended up with the leadership throwing the posters >out of their orgn. Doss, I'm surprised at them!!!! Well, it just goes to show me that ossification and power-tripping seems to be a natural process in practically all organizations. > >It is my belief that that the powers behind some of the greatest >advances for the benefit of the humanity would be watching all these >traffic and may view all of us like little children yet to grow up be >able to deal with openness and freedom. the changes that internet is >going to make to the organizations will be very fundamental and more far >reaching than any of us can imagine. I am having a lot of fun seeing all >the developments. I agree. We're talking about profound, revolutionary changes. Your remark about the powers behind some of humanity's greatest advances sparked a thought. I've long believed that the Internet is an outer manifestation of a major evolutionary step being taken by humanity. I think it corresponds to something happening on the mental plane involving humanity in general. But that's just a thought. I too am having a lot of fun watching it. I think it's a blast!!!! BTW, not only is the Internet a powerful agent for change, but it is very fast. Would you believe my message and your reply have timestamps that are only one minute apart?!!! Not to mention your own typing speed (with no typos, no less!!!!). Worldwide telepathy, here we come! ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:59:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: New to the List... Message-ID: In message <33E0D438.4580@dmv.com>, Vincent Beall writes >Well, anyway its nice to be here! And it's nice to meet you! Hope you stay the course! Welcome. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:14:44 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Crank call Message-ID: In message <199707301650.MAA03518@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >P: That's a complicated question. Have you read my books? >C: NO! I don't WANT to read them! >P: Well, I don't want to explain them to you if you don't want >to read them. >C: Goodbye Paul, you're still a prick. >END Pricks of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your balls! Prickmaster General From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:40:07 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Pedophilia, not homosexuality Message-ID: <199708010108.VAA28853@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: K. Paul Johnson > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Pedophilia, not homosexuality > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 3:36 PM > > In support of Kym's point. I once referred to CWL as gay to > his biographer Greg Tillett. Tillett pointed out that there is > absolutely no evidence that CWL was ever sexually attracted to > or involved with any adult of either sex. Which means, in > Tillett's view, that it is quite wrong to refer to him as a > homosexual. He was a pedophile, which is a completely > different category. Speaking from experience with another individual, CWL's concern for quite young men could have meant more than a sexual preference. It could have meant a desire for power - power over one younger and less knowledgeable. How impressive CWL must have been to these young boys. > He did NOT live ahead of his time. If he did now what he did > then, he wouldn't get away with it. We have become more > understanding of homosexuality, and more conscious of the > damage wrought by pedophiles I beg to differ here. There are many people getting away with quite a bit, and no one is stopping them. A. Safron . From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:47:19 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <199708010108.VAA28864@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 11:23 AM > > In the past several years, the only person in the TSA administration who > seems to have mentioned about the issue of how to take Theosophy to those > who can most benefit by it is Tim Boyd who is from Chicago. I recall his > making a statement in this connection several years ago. I think it was in > his published statement when he ran for the office of Directorship. But I > have not seen anything else from anyone in recent years. There is a project by two women named Brennan and Kettering in Olcott which involves the purchase of a house not far from Olcott. Last year, I hear it was being remodeled to use as a battered women's shelter, as well as food pantry. However, TS was not used in the name of the project, as some conservative and fundamentalist people who live in the area would have been made it difficult for them to operate. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:56:08 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Some funnies Message-ID: <199708010108.VAA28873@cliff.concentric.net> ---------- > From: JOSEPH PRICE > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Some funnies > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 4:33 PM ACTUAL Announcements Taken from Church Bulletins: > > Talk about the air, does anyone know when Jupiter goes direct? There are some > pretty strange astrological things happening. I saw a refrece in a post the > other day. I know Patrick Allesandra and others watch these things. What' > up? > Right now we're in a Saturn retrograde that will last till to Aug. 9. Things will s-l-o-w down. It will take longer to accomplish things. Once it passes, we will be in the thick of a Pluto retrograde, (8/14) where sinister things are most likely to happen. On Aug. 18, we enter that old Mercury retrograde, with effects three days before and after. Sign no papers during this time and expect to take more time traveling. Expect problems with communications. This stuff is pretty mundane, but can effect everyone's lives. Your personal transits and progressions may also have effect. Jupiter going direct? Hmmm. Don't know that one. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:02:25 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: Re: Digest 1151 Message-ID: <199708010108.VAA28880@cliff.concentric.net> --------- > From: DSArthur@aol.com > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Digest 1151 > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 12:15 PM > >snippy> Fine for animals, of course, but not for us vastly > superior human beings. We deserve better than that! Right? Ask any exalted feline and he/she will tell you that the human race is here to serve them because of their vastly superior intelligence and sensibilities. Remember Bast? Cats were worshipped in Egypt and rightly so. A. Safron From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:24:08 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Bast Message-ID: <199708010124.SAA04757@palrel3.hp.com> "A. Safron" wrote: >> From: DSArthur@aol.com >> snippy> Fine for animals, of course, but not for us vastly >> superior human beings. We deserve better than that! Right? > Ask any exalted feline and he/she will tell you that the human > race is here to serve them because of their vastly superior > intelligence and sensibilities. > Remember Bast? Cats were worshipped in Egypt and rightly so. A fine segue to Rules for cats who have a house to run: I. DOORS: Do not allow closed doors in any room. To get door opened, stand on hind legs and hammer with forepaws. Once door is opened, it is not necessary to use it. After you have ordered an "outside" door opened, stand halfway in and out and think about several things. This is particularly important during very cold weather, rain, snow, or mosquito season. Swinging doors are to be avoided at all costs. II. CHAIRS AND RUGS: If you have to throw up, get to a chair quickly. If you cannot manage in time, get to an Oriental rug. If there is no Oriental rug, shag is good. When throwing up on the carpet, make sure you back up so that it is as long as the human's bare foot. III. BATHROOMS: Always accompany guests to the bathroom. It is not necessary to do anything -- just sit and stare. IV. HAMPERING: If one of your humans is engaged in some close activity and the other is idle, stay with the busy one. This is called "helping", otherwise known as "hampering". Following are the rules for "hampering": a) When supervising cooking, sit just behind the left heel of the cook. You cannot be seen and thereby stand a better chance of being stepped on and then picked up and comforted. b) For book readers, get in close under the chin, between eyes and book, unless you can lie across the book itself. c) For knitting projects or paperwork, lie on the work in the most appropriate manner so as to obscure as much of the work or at least the most important part. Pretend to doze, but every so often reach out and slap the pencil or knitting needles. The worker may try to distract you; ignore it. Remember, the aim is to hamper work. Embroidery and needlepoint projects make great hammocks in spite of what the humans may tell you. d) For people paying bills (monthly activity) or working on income taxes or Christmas cards (annual activity), keep in mind the aim -- to hamper! First, sit on the paper being worked on. When dislodged, watch sadly from the side of the table. When activity proceeds nicely, roll around on the papers, scattering them to the best of your ability. After being removed for the second time, push pens, pencils, and erasers off the table, one at a time. e) When a human is holding the newspaper in front of him/her, be sure to jump on the back of the paper. They love to jump. V. WALKING: As often as possible, dart quickly and as close as possible in front of the human, especially: on stairs, when they have something in their arms, in the dark, and when they first get up in the morning. This will help their coordination skills. VI. BEDTIME: Always sleep on the human at night so s/he cannot move around. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:20:21 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Dolphins Message-ID: In message <199707302108.RAA05223@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >One thing about the readings which bothers me is the denial >that animals have individual souls. In the case of dolphins >and several other species, this just doesn't ring true. Some theosophists claim the same lack of animal soul(s). Like you, I don't accept this one bit. Kabbalah speaks of the *nephesh* or *animal soul* - which it refers to as part of US. We live in animal bodies, just like dolphins, cats, dogs, and probably all mammals. It is probably true (I would say certainly) that we all have grousp souls as well, and on a much larger scale of things, a gigantic "mammalian" group soul which includes ourselves, dolphins, cats, etc., etc. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:37:50 -0400 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Entering the Pit of Sickly Sweet Ethics, once again... Message-ID: <199708010242.WAA18541@NetGSI.com> >It seems that you attach a lot to the word "ethics" that I don't. Ethics does >not exclude compassion, nor does it imply seeing things in black and >white. "Sickly sweet" is what I use to describe hypocritical, false >compassion. True compassion also has a bit of salt in it. "If the salt hath >lost its savor, thenceforth it shall be good for nothing ..." First of all, "sickly sweet" is not my phrase, rather I have read this several times by authors who dislike HPBs emphasis on being "pure of heart" and so on (Israel Regardie, for just one). Secondly, yes, I do see ethics as being black and white. A person who considers himself/herself "ethical" always sees good and bad in others, and thus everything tends to be black and white. This is true for all deeply religious folks, with very few exceptions. Thirdly, there is a very big difference between ethics and compassion. Neither are necessary for the Path, but compassion just makes plain common sense, because of the safely that it allows. Ethics (i.e., personal sets of moral values) just get in the way, which is why most religious folks are not terribly spiritual. >> Plain common sense is all that is needed to make one develop compassion. > >It takes a lot more than that. At a minimum it takes strenuous self-honesty >that engages your whole being, and a will to love in spite of the bruises you >receive. Whoops! You misunderstood my intent. I agree with you. What I meant to say was that common sense is all one needs for motivation to develop compassion. We don't need the ethical rationale that it is the "right" thing to do. >Religious wars have come not over ethics, but because they wanted to >defend their creed. Creed and ethics are different Actually most all wars are faught for economics at the top, with moral concerns only being taken into account at the grunt levels. The problem here is that wars ARE faught with ethics, in the sense that each side thinks that it is "right" and God is on its side, etc. The moral sense of being "right" is what allows an otherwise nice guy to shoot a person he doesn't even know. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:43:17 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Doggie Doo Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801024317.00b867e4@mail.eden.com> At 05:21 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 04:42 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Doss wrote: >>techndex@pacbell.net wrote: >>> >>> I agree. That's why governments all over the world are desperately itching >>> to control and limit access to it. Plus there was that whole Scientology >>> thing where the "Church" of Scientology was extremely upset about messages >>> posted to Usenet about the organization. I think that the Net is eventually >>> cause BIG changes in organizations of all types. I love it!!!! >>> >>> Lynn >> >>some time ago, I believe it is Bahai group, that had some followers >>posting critical msgs ended up with the leadership throwing the posters >>out of their orgn. > >Doss, > >I'm surprised at them!!!! Well, it just goes to show me that ossification >and power-tripping seems to be a natural process in practically all >organizations. >> >>It is my belief that that the powers behind some of the greatest >>advances for the benefit of the humanity would be watching all these >>traffic and may view all of us like little children yet to grow up be >>able to deal with openness and freedom. the changes that internet is >>going to make to the organizations will be very fundamental and more far >>reaching than any of us can imagine. I am having a lot of fun seeing all >>the developments. > >I agree. We're talking about profound, revolutionary changes. Your remark >about the powers behind some of humanity's greatest advances sparked a >thought. I've long believed that the Internet is an outer manifestation of >a major evolutionary step being taken by humanity. I think it corresponds >to something happening on the mental plane involving humanity in general. >But that's just a thought. > >I too am having a lot of fun watching it. I think it's a blast!!!! BTW, not >only is the Internet a powerful agent for change, but it is very fast. >Would you believe my message and your reply have timestamps that are only >one minute apart?!!! Not to mention your own typing speed (with no typos, >no less!!!!). Worldwide telepathy, here we come! ;-D > >Lynn >From what we have known thru various writings etc. the Adepts have mastered two things - transportation and communication. On the latter, with phones and internet we can communicate with anyone instantaneously so long as both the parties have telephone. For those who don't or cannot afford to, we have internet. Air travel has made travel much easier and quicker. Let us see what is in store for us in the next millenium. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:43:41 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Battle between paper and cyber version Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801024341.00b92ecc@mail.eden.com> At 01:34 PM 7/31/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-07-30 23:15:38 EDT, you write: > >>Perhaps if Theosophy is going to appear in every home, it better negotiate >>with Ted Turner and buy it's own cable channel. Or maybe satellite! >> >> > >I'm getting a nasty idea here. Does anyone remember Gene Scott? We can have >a chorus singing "Kill some piss ants for Blavatsky" over and over again >until the donations come in. Or, in honor of Johnny's obsession with Masonry >(witness his book reviews) "Kill some puissants for Blavatsky." > >Chuck the Heretic > I wonder what's is the obsession due to. The future of TS and TSA lies in Theosophy and not in Masonry, LCC or anything else however much each one of us personally feel good bad or indifferent about these other outfits. Couple of years ago, he attempted to include Masonic Program as part of the official Program of TSA Annual Meeting. Objections were raised to mixing masonry with TSA activities. After that we are yet to see any Masonic Program included in the Annual Meeting/Convention program. Very frequently, subtly and tacitly masonic activity is attempted to be brought into the forefront in the AT/Quest. What most people don't know is that the faction that is *supported* is one whose policies are decided and directed by a group of Frenchmen who head the co-masonic organization. To this day, no non Frenchman/Woman has ever been the head of the organization and many in this country see it as the last vestiges of old day French colonialism. (Some may justify as typical Hierarchial *Occult* setup -- you use your common sense and decide for yourself) Also what has been hidden from the members/public is the fact that a litigation is going on in Denver Federal District Court as a result of US Members rebelling against Frenchmen wanting to control and dictate the business in this country -- most US members declared independent of Paris and is now totally controlled by democratically elected leaders in the USA. The Frenchmen thru their followers(representatives) sued the Colorado Corporation to take control of the properties situated in the USA and this is now under litigation at Denver. Many from Wheaton are in the French camp. Many members of TSA are in the other camp which decided not to let any foreign outfit control US property and affairs. This is some of the *real* story, not the *moderated* ones you may have heard. ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:43:48 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Digest 1151 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801024348.00b9986c@mail.eden.com> At 09:08 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote: >--------- >> From: DSArthur@aol.com >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Digest 1151 >> Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 12:15 PM >> >>snippy> Fine for animals, of course, but not for us vastly >> superior human beings. We deserve better than that! Right? > >Ask any exalted feline and he/she will tell you that the human >race is here to serve them because of their vastly superior >intelligence and sensibilities. > >Remember Bast? Cats were worshipped in Egypt and rightly >so. > >A. Safron > A famous biologist was asked about what his assessment of God based on his life long study of biology. His reply was that considering 10,000 varieties of beatles there are, God has a special preference to beatles! ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:43:54 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801024354.00b9e5f0@mail.eden.com> At 09:08 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> To: Multiple recipients of list >> Subject: Re: Simplistic Teaching. >> Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 11:23 AM >> >> In the past several years, the only person in the TSA administration who >> seems to have mentioned about the issue of how to take Theosophy to those >> who can most benefit by it is Tim Boyd who is from Chicago. I recall his >> making a statement in this connection several years ago. I think it was in >> his published statement when he ran for the office of Directorship. But I >> have not seen anything else from anyone in recent years. > >There is a project by two women named Brennan and Kettering in Olcott which >involves the purchase of a house not far from Olcott. Last year, I hear it was >being remodeled to use as a battered women's shelter, as well as food pantry. >However, TS was not used in the name of the project, as some conservative >and fundamentalist people who live in the area would have been made it >difficult for them to operate. > >A. Safron Anything happened to it? Operating a battered women's shelter is no simple project! .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:43:59 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Bast Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970801024359.00ba3978@mail.eden.com> At 09:24 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote: >"A. Safron" wrote: > > d) For people paying bills (monthly activity) or working on income > taxes or Christmas cards (annual activity), keep in mind the aim > -- to hamper! First, sit on the paper being worked on. When > dislodged, watch sadly from the side of the table. When activity > proceeds nicely, roll around on the papers, scattering them to the > best of your ability. After being removed for the second time, > push pens, pencils, and erasers off the table, one at a time. A friend of mine was working on the taxes and was in the middle of some additions on an adding machine and the door bell rang. She went to the door and after taking care of the caller, came back and continued the ten-key work and finished the tax return. Lo and behold, couple of months later she got a big bill from IRS. When she went over her work sheets, she realized her kitty jumped onthe adding machine and hit some keys which ended up inflating her income figures which in turn messed up her tax return. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:00:43 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Pedophilia, not homosexuality Message-ID: In message <199707312036.QAA18927@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >He did NOT live ahead of his time. If he did now what he did >then, he wouldn't get away with it. We have become more >understanding of homosexuality, and more conscious of the >damage wrought by pedophiles. Amen. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:39:20 -0700 From: techndex@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Some funnies Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970731183920.006a33e0@pacbell.net> At 09:08 PM 7/31/97 -0400, A. Safron wrote: >> up? >> >Right now we're in a Saturn retrograde that will last till to Aug. 9. >Things will s-l-o-w down. It will take longer to accomplish things. Once it >passes, we will be in the thick of a Pluto retrograde, (8/14) where sinister >things are most likely to happen. Oh gawwwwwd!!!! That means that Pluto will be crossing my Descendent (opposing my Ascendant and hyleg) again!!!!!!! The last time it did that, I had a friggin' heart attack!!! Well, as they say, Pluto's effects are ..ahem... transformative and a heart attack turns your life around all of a sudden within a matter of hours. ;-D > >Jupiter going direct? Hmmm. Don't know that one. On Oct. 8th, according to "The American Ephemeris for the 20th Century". Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:26:39 -0700 From: Eldon B Tucker Subject: The August THEOSOPHY WORLD is out Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970731202639.007da350@imagiware.com> The August issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD just came out. It's contents were: "Other Theosophical Worldviews" by Eldon Tucker "To Friends of Point Loma Publications" by Carmen Small "Theosophy: Whence and Whither? Or to Wither." by Don DeGracia, Ph.D. "New Online Book by Theosophical University Press" by Sarah Belle Dougherty "Theosophy and Modern Art" by Tony Downey "Regarding Humbleness" by Thoa Tran "Life is Our Media" by Eldon Tucker "The Inter-Theosophical Dialogue" by John Shafer "The Doctrine of Svabhava or Svabhavata and the Questions of Anatman and Shunyata", Part I, by David Reigle "Building Upon What HPB Wrote" by Jerry Hejka-Ekins THEOSOPHY WORLD is a free Internet monthly available via email (about 100,000 bytes in size). To subscribe, write to editor@theosophy.com.