From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:32:49 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Barts wants a Spanking Message-ID: <339052B1.5E7A@gil.net> "Beat him, bite him and kick him, see how he smiles!" Seems to me Bart's penchant for raising people's emotional "Stuff" is obvious. He is the man who 'Gurdjieff' would hire to perpetrate dissension in the ranks and thus allow the rest of us to "See ourselves". Good show that! To bring to fruition on the physical plane, emotional upset can be an intricate process, solely for one's desire of exercising control. At its best, that stated, is a Gurdjieffian possibility. We each must discern the true nature of another's intent. If you allude to knowing something in a secretive manner that the rest of us are questioning (see Bart's answers Theos-l" 1055), what is gained? In fact, might not that which is lost be the only possession each of us truly control, time? Time that could be productive? Thus would not the retardant act of the "Knower", ultimately bare the responsibility for what was prevented from manifesting in the interest of and for the greater good?. Certainly we are not in the area of great or even scant esoteric knowledge here. "Lawful" in fact may mean a universal imperative not a personal one. Einar, great homepage ! I am going to discuss a similar possibility in our lodge. With your consent and future approval, E-Linkage may be in the future of all lodges. As always, peace profound. Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:36:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <970531133633_-1765766451@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-31 12:27:17 EDT, you write: > The hypothetical situation assumed that the sex would take place >without a vehicle; in other words, two (or more) bodies lying down in >the middle of a busy highway. > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! Even that would not surprise me. But I can guarantee that I wouldn't be doing it. ROFL Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:08:58 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: E-linkage/flat network Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970531190858.0073b840@mail.eden.com> At 12:32 PM 5/31/97 -0400, Ken Malkin wrote: >Einar, great homepage ! I am going to discuss a similar possibility in >our lodge. With your consent and future approval, E-Linkage may be in >the future of all lodges. >From what I have read, setting up a home page is not all that complicated. But long term maintaining and updating it is a more demanding task. e-linkage not only of all lodges but every man, woman and child is going to happen. It is only a question of when and how soon. For example in England there is a proposal to assign a e-mail address to every man, woman and child. Children could access Internet from their schools and even homeless can access their mail from a library. When universal availability of e-mail becomes a reality, it is going to cause a lot of problems to various organizations which are run like TS. As Warcup stated, the fundamental change is the shift of power from the top to the bottom. Take for example the scenario of every TS member on e-mail. If I have a problem which I think need to be communicated to everyone, I can just e-mail it to every member. My cost? Just my time. Imagine the amount of money one has to spend if I were to use snailmail. Another example: consider all that was done when the TSA bylaws were presented to the membership. Since the only vehicle thru which most members received info was via the AT. Since the editorial control was in the hands of the National President, full advantage was taken of it and you know the results. On the other hand if e-mail access to every member was available, everyone would have received information from every point of view and hopefully the results would have been exactly opposite. So don't look for miracles. Just nudging at the edge is all you are likely to see. ..................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:35:59 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: More questions Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970531014113.00732304@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >On this issue again there are two schools of thought. The post HPB thought >is that for anyone to progress spiritually one needs celibacy. It is the >same that all religions have spoken of for centuries. > >The other school is that of Jiddu Krishnamurti who says celibacy is not that >important to spiritual growth. Both are probably right. The religious path finds celibacy an advantage because it can enable a *faster* spiritual development. It *can* - but it is not guaranteed. K is probably right also, as in my experience those who seek spiritual growth will find it, whatever their lifestyle. Speaking personally, I found celibacy, once I got the hang of it [there could be a gag there :-)] enabled access to the 'higher' planes very considerably facilitated. Without it, access was still possible, but attention was more easily distracted. Just my two-pennyworth. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:21:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: In message , "Dr. A.M.Bain" writes >>When was the Warcup article published? Was anything done in >>response to it? > >It was first published in ~The Theosophical Journal~in the UK, around >the Spring of 1995 Err - I think this is a typo for 1996. Sorry. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:39:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Bart needs a spanking? Kinky! Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970531014708.006e4fcc@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >At 09:45 PM 5/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >>A sense of humor is the best way I've found to flow with those who are >>insincere in their search for truth. >> >>Love & Peace, >>P >> > >Hello, it is going to be very difficult to know who is and who is not >sincere in their search for truth. Just my opinion. > >........doss > A sense of humor is the best way to flow with anyone, if they will let you! If they're not sincere, humor still works - and may even promote sincerity. If they're sincere, they will enjoy a good laugh. Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho! Hahahahahahahahahahaha Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:46:31 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: In message <970531002125_1523575389@emout15.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >The TS in England isn't leaking, it's hemoraging! >When did Adam leave? I am not, as I intended to imply, 100% certain, but more than one person in the UK has told me this. Like many of us, he would most likely have quietly faded off the scene. The ridiculous behavior surrounding my removal from Lodge office led to a reduction in my old lodge of about 20%. Adam was not treated kindly by the incomining administration after his own period as Gen. Sec. If Michael Rainger is still lurking on theos-l he may have more reliable info. (Michael was Treasuer at HQ with Adam, and he *definitely* quit the UK TS). Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:47:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: In message <199705310907.JAA01726@rvik.ismennt.is>, "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." writes >As we proceed naturally in our spiritual search, ALL needs will come to an >end, naturally and permanently. To impose unnatural control or suppression >on the process will simply not work. Neither will an unnatural indulgence. >Transcendance is sort of perpendicular direction, away from both 'do it' >and 'don't do it'. One day the 'needs' arent there, because they have been >repalced by something more profound. Well put. Thank you. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:50:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: In message <970531115033_2020166778@emout01.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-05-31 06:46:35 EDT, you write: > >> it would be too likely interpreted as a >>license for self-indulgence. > >So? I've practiced self-indulgence without a license for many years. > >Chuck the Heretic I hereby fine you $500, payable to me. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:49:54 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: In message <339025DF.863@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >if the sex is offered in the middle of a busy highway, I >daresay any of us would overcome the urge. Any comment, Chuck? Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:27:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Stop arguing with Bart Message-ID: <0u0LQJA4PLkzEwBu@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199705310125.VAA18720@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >One doesn't spurn gifts of God. What for? Also, >from the point of view of one who had to struggle for a long time without >much money, it's very nice to have some. To me, that goes for people as well >as for Lodges. I think that if they need money to function properly they >should have it. It's not only the root of much evil it's also the root of >much good. Slightly at a tangent, but I have found in the past that whenever I needed (not wanted) to get some esoteric or spiritual work done, the means to do so always, always arrived, even to the physical supply of very scarce books, some of which are still on my shelves. I have heard of this happening to a number of people, and there is little doubt in my mind that there is some kind of providence, divine or otherwise, that assists us in our serious work. Sometimes it throws in a vacation ... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:41:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Bart needs a spanking? Message-ID: In message <338F9175.2A3A@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >I am sorry. I did not realize that I was in the presence of an adept, >who can tell someone's heart just by shaking their hands. Others of us have made this blunder, but you can't keep a good adpet down ..... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:37:09 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: research question Message-ID: <3390D056.4C3C@withoutwalls.com> Hi Folks, Sorry that I haven't been actively participating for a while. I've been quite busy and have, for a time, retired to merely observing the list. However, I now have a question that I'm hoping someone well versed in the teachings of theosophy can answer for me. Here it is: Being composed of elements that partake of both Hindu and Buddhist thought (among other things), can anyone tell me how theosophy has resolved the difference between the traditional Hindu view of Atman and Brahman and the quite succint refutation of these concepts by Buddhism (for example, in the Buddhist doctrine of anatman)? Is there some overarching theosophical perspective that reconciles this direct philosophical opposition? Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:29:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: More questions Message-ID: In message <338F7F45.730A@bahia.ens.uabc.mx>, "Romero Cortez D.Ma" writes >A salute to all and to Doc Bain also.Hi, Doc! I really like your page!! Thanks very much! Try the Directory link for various items. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:06:03 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Providence Arriving, but... Message-ID: <3390CAFB.3034@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > Slightly at a tangent, but I have found in the past that whenever I > needed (not wanted) to get some esoteric or spiritual work done, the > means to do so always, always arrived, even to the physical supply of > very scarce books, some of which are still on my shelves. I have heard > of this happening to a number of people, and there is little doubt in my > mind that there is some kind of providence, divine or otherwise, that > assists us in our serious work. > > Sometimes it throws in a vacation ... And sometimes... Once there was a religious man. His town was flooded. A bus had come to evacuate the town, but the man said, "Don't worry. God will save me." Then the water was higher. A boat came by to pick him up. "Don't worry", said the man. "God will save me". Then the water was up to the top of the houses. The man sat on a roof, when a helicopter went by to pick him up. "Don't worry", said the man, "God will save me". Then the water came even higher, and the man drowned. He went to heaven, and met God. "Why didn't you save me?", asked the man. "Who do you think sent the bus, the boat, and the helicopter?", asked God. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 08:47:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970601134708.00749cb8@mail.eden.com> At 08:08 PM 5/31/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <970531002125_1523575389@emout15.mail.aol.com>, >Drpsionic@aol.com writes >>The TS in England isn't leaking, it's hemoraging! >>When did Adam leave? > >I am not, as I intended to imply, 100% certain, but more than one person >in the UK has told me this. Like many of us, he would most likely have >quietly faded off the scene. > >The ridiculous behavior surrounding my removal from Lodge office led to >a reduction in my old lodge of about 20%. Adam was not treated kindly >by the incomining administration after his own period as Gen. Sec. If >Michael Rainger is still lurking on theos-l he may have more reliable >info. (Michael was Treasuer at HQ with Adam, and he *definitely* quit >the UK TS). I have just sent a msg to Warcup asking him for clarification. He is one of the few past Gen. Secs. who have a e-mail address. Will let you all know when I hear from him. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 09:39:01 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Farthing's Article Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970601143901.0072725c@mail.eden.com> Hello, everybody Farthing's article titled THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AND ITS FUTURE [from the May, 1997 HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST], is a scholarly and thorough article that everyone interested in Theosophy should read. [Due to copyright issues, I am not posting it here]. It was posted in the Theosophy World, June 1, 1997 issue. There are two items in the article that needs to be commented on. The first relates to his views on the political and social activities that Annie Besant undertook while she was the President of TS. To better understand the overall picture, we need to just review the happenings around the many well known members of TS in India. ML to APS shows the keep interest that the Adepts took in trying to establish an native owned English language newspaper and also the work They did in the background relative to some of the issues which had an impact on the welfare of the masses. It was also after one of the early Annual TS conventions in Adyar that some of the members met and formed the Indian National Congress which fought for Indian Freedom and A O Hume was one of those involved in that effort and still today he is called the father of Indian National Congress even though most Indians know very little about his correspondence/connection with the Adepts and Theosophy. While dissemination of occult doctrine in an effort to change the human hearts from inside out thus revolutionize the world, practical efforts by the Adepts went hand in hand. While TS as an organization did not directly get involved in all these efforts, members in their personal capacity did participate in all these political and social endeavors. While the long term fix for human problems may be changing of human hearts from inside out, in the shorter term, any improvement, however slight in the conditions of the masses should be welcome by any one who has the best interests of the "orphan" Humanity at heart. I have already mentioned how HPB, Olcott, CWL all helped in practical application of Theosophy. In this tradition, Annie Besant reached new heights and did lot to the masses in getting herself involved in many political and social issues. While she was President of TS, she made sure that none of these activities took place from the International Headquarters. During her days of political activity, she had an office outside the International Headquarters from which she worked on all the political matters, which included even publishing a magazine/newspaper. The second issue relates to Jiddu Krishnamurti. HPB herself had anticipated the visit of Messenger from the Great White Lodge to help Humanity and I recall her commenting how easy for the Messenger to do His work now that TS has established itself far and wide. No one can be sure if K was that Messenger or not nor how high spiritually the Messenger was. It is impossible, in my humble opinion, to judge anyone, especially one who is far ahead of ourselves in evolution. True Annie Besant and CWL and others anticipated that the Messenger would come in a particular way. The model, based on what happened 2000 year ago did not pan out. Again how can any one of us can judge if the direction in which K started teaching -- shutting down of the Order of the Star of the East and K's famous "Truth is a Pathless Land" is not the best suited to the Humanity at this point in time. Only at a future date when we come back and reincarnate we may be able to see if indeed this was the approach that did work. If say 1000 years from now , you are back and we find that no one knows about a person named Krishnamurti, then we can perhaps say that K was not the expected Messenger. On the other hand, if we find that K's ideas have accepted widespread acceptance, then we know that after all K was right when he charted his future direction. So only time can tell, the best course seems to be to not to come to any conclusion. At the same time, if each one of is find something in K's teachings that appeals to us and is helpful to us, I think as open minded Theosophists we should make the best use of it. We need to add K's involvement in other matters. One of the little known facts about K is the effect he seemed to have had in helping Indian Politicians. K had been consulted by Jawaharlal Nehru, the first Prime Minister and the father of Indira Gandhi, since the days of Independence, even though very few knew about it. After Nehru, Indira Gandhi continued to consult him till her death. As a matter of fact it was K who convinced Indira Gandhi to lift emergency rule and call for elections (in which Indira Gandhi herself was defeated). No one can be sure of what effect he had on the Indian Politics. R. Venkataraman, one of the students of the Rishi Valley School in India became the President of India and prior to that he held various key state and cabinet positions. So everything seems to point that K had a significance effect on the developments in India. K also had set up schools in various countries. The aim of the schools is to produce future citizens who may help change the world. So all of the above seems to show that they are practical theosophy pure and simple. After all helping the suffering "Orphan Humanity" seems to me to be more important than all the detailed information relating to man and the universe. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:09:22 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: <339190A2.3B72@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > I have just sent a msg to Warcup asking him for clarification. He is one > of the few past Gen. Secs. who have a e-mail address. Will let you all know > when I hear from him. By the way, in terms of TS officers having email addresses: Did you ever try looking them up in one of the many directories available? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:24:07 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Celibacy Message-ID: <970601112406_-363323184@emout17.mail.aol.com> The question of whether or not to endorse celibacy (either as a personal moral value or as a more general goal toward which everyone should strive) seems to perplex some Theosophists. To me the issue does not seem very perplexing. A desire for sex is simply "one more desire" that joins an entire host of desires that human beings typically seem to have. This one is neither "good" nor "bad" in itself --- but, like all of our other physical desires, it helps to bind us to this plane of existence. If one likes good books one gravitates toward a library and not a restaurant. Conversely, if the desire is for good food, go to a restaurant and not the library, etc. etc. . As everyone knows, Catholic priests and nuns have lived under a vow of celibacy for centuries. Admittedly, some of them don't much care for this situation but I maintain the church "is on to something" here. However, I would seriously question the spiritual value to any individual of celibacy. If someone has desires then they have them (and forbidding them will simply sublimate them --- not make them go away). Sigmund Freud wrote extensively on this point. So, as with the restaurant and the library mentioned above, if one has physical desires (of Any nature) that one will continue to seek a physical body in which to express those desires. As usual (for me, at least) this gets back to one of my favorite teachers --- Nisargaddata Maharaj who very wisely said: "desire nothing ... for that you may surely have." And until then? Welcome to reincarnation and Planet Earth oh desirous one! Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 12:42:34 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Krishnamurti Message-ID: <3391A67A.3372@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > True Annie Besant and CWL and others anticipated that the Messenger would > come in a particular way. The model, based on what happened 2000 year ago > did not pan out. In Judaism, it is believed that in every generation, there is someone who is fit to be the Messiah. The keyto whether or not s/he is the Messiah is success: The true Messiah will succeed in, if you will, making humanity aware of Unity. If it weren't for the history of his followers, Jews might be willing to admit that Jesus, although not the Messiah, was one worthy of being so, but who failed (some Jews call Christianity "The Cult of the Failed Messiah"). In the Liberal Catholic Church (which somehow has displaced the ES as its religious alternative, the ES somehow becoming the "core of the TS" as opposed to a place for those who insist on a religious practice to go off without bothering the rest of us; see the Mahatma letter involving the controversy about the London TS having courses on Christian Mysticism for the full details), the belief is that messiahs/world teachers/messengers don't do the full job, but merely try to nudge humanity in the right path. Those worthy allow their bodies to be used by something called the "Christ" or "Maitreya", who is an advanced being who has a diffuse consciousness, who somehow retains enough of an ego to enter an appropriate body when needed. Given all this, I can see the possibility that Krishnamurti was worthy of having this consciousness act through him, but in the end decided that he needed more time as an individual, and rejected the entity. I have this picture of Krishnamurti in my head, however: Would-be Student: Krishnamurti, what is karma? Krishnamurti: Even if I could tell you what karma is, which I can't, why the hell are you bothering with it? WBS: How brilliant! What a revelation! Here's some money! K: Hmmmmm...... New WBS: What happens after you die? K: I can't tell you what happens after you die. Why don't you concentrate on living? NWBS: How brilliant! What a revelation! Here's some money! K: Hmmmmm...... ------------------ Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:53:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970601165339.00c1d9bc@mail.eden.com> At 11:10 AM 6/1/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> I have just sent a msg to Warcup asking him for clarification. He is one >> of the few past Gen. Secs. who have a e-mail address. Will let you all know >> when I hear from him. > > By the way, in terms of TS officers having email addresses: > > Did you ever try looking them up in one of the many directories >available? > > Bart Lidofsky > Thanks for the suggestion. Right now I am very busy with umpteen things and when I find time, may be I should start the "detective" work. There is another point from a practical side. Even if I find any addresses thru either public or private resources, generally I normally do not send e-mail unless the individual makes the e-mail address known to me in private or public and feels comfortable to correspond via e-mail. I say this because I know personally certain well known theosophists who like the snailmail even though they have access to e-mail at no cost to them. The snailmail moves at snail's pace and the postal expense (stamps, expensive stationery, envelope etc.) does not come from their personal funds. But in my case, like most of us here, mail is paid for from my *personal* *funds* and personal time. Hence I extensively use electronic communication. Snailmail is used only when absolutely essential. Snailmail provides ideal slow speed of communication which is very convenient when one wants to drag the "traditional feet" for whatever purpose. Thanks again. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:30:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: <970601133024_-596377798@emout01.mail.aol.com> In any event, the mere rumor of it is a shocker. If true it means the TS is in serious trouble. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:32:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <970601133253_-895323573@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-31 20:17:25 EDT, you write: >I hereby fine you $500, payable to me. > >Alan Sorry, American law does not permit licensing for indulgence. It violates the First and fourteenth amendments. (Dewey, Cheatem and Howe vs. Kansas 1966) Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:35:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Providence Arriving, but... Message-ID: <970601133503_372435058@emout06.mail.aol.com> After Tim Boyd told that story for the tenth time we prepared to drown him in the Olcott pond, but Chuthlu, who lives in the pond, objected. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:39:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Farthing's Article Message-ID: <970601133951_70743029@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-01 10:42:11 EDT, you write: >True Annie Besant and CWL and others anticipated that the Messenger would >come in a particular way. The model, based on what happened 2000 year ago >did not pan out. > Lucky thing for Krishnamurti that it didn't! Crucifixion hurts. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:43:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Message-ID: <970601134339_944454264@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-01 12:45:25 EDT, you write: > I have this picture of Krishnamurti in my head, however: > > Would-be Student: Krishnamurti, what is karma? > > Krishnamurti: Even if I could tell you what karma is, which I can't, >why the hell are you bothering with it? > > WBS: How brilliant! What a revelation! Here's some money! > > K: Hmmmmm...... > > New WBS: What happens after you die? > > K: I can't tell you what happens after you die. Why don't you >concentrate on living? > > NWBS: How brilliant! What a revelation! Here's some money! > > K: Hmmmmm...... >------------------ > > Krishnamurti was definitely on to something there. I wonder if I can get away with it? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:14:22 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Providence Arriving, but ... Message-ID: <199706011814.LAA10643@palrel1.hp.com> Reminds me of what Ann Ree Colton wrote: "One starts out saying, 'The Father will do it for me.' One ends up saying, 'I will do it for the Father'" We are expected to put forth the effort we are capable of. God takes care of what we are not presently capable of. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:11:04 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: disclosure statement Message-ID: <199706011828.OAA15507@ultra1.dreamscape.com> paul, I agree with Doss. "To thine own self be true. It follows as the night the day ..." besides, what is wrong with writing about a man who fires your imagination and enthusiasm? If you didn't have that as a basis, bits to buttons, your writing would be boring indeed. liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:24:53 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: the way ahead Message-ID: <199706011842.OAA24930@ultra1.dreamscape.com> I agree with Adam & Einar. I prefer a network to a hierarchy. I thought that's what Theosophy International set out to be ... a network. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:50:19 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: research question Message-ID: <199706011850.LAA12109@palrel1.hp.com> Mark Kusek wrote: > Being composed of elements that partake of both Hindu and Buddhist > thought (among other things), can anyone tell me how theosophy has > resolved the difference between the traditional Hindu view of Atman and > Brahman and the quite succint refutation of these concepts by Buddhism > (for example, in the Buddhist doctrine of anatman)? > Is there some overarching theosophical perspective that reconciles this > direct philosophical opposition? I'd also be interested in what our learned list members have to say on this. (Paging scholarly, but down-to-earth Alan). But I have a general comment. Hinduism at the time of Buddha had a very elaborate pantheon to emphasize minute and differentiated aspects of God. That in itself is no problem. But it seems that people hypostatized the pantheon and even got into endless Pharisee-like disputes because of it. Less attention was given to spirit and more to names and doctrine. Buddha cut down the thicket of doctrine and re-emphasized the experiential roots of Hinduism, also emphasizing service. In a random purusal of the index of SD, I found the following: "The Hindu Reformer limited his public teachings to the purely moral and physiological aspect of the Wisdom-Religion, to Ethics and MAN alone. Things 'unseen and incorporeal,' the mystery of Being outside out terestrial sphere, the Great Teacher left entirely untouched in his public lectures ..." (pg. xx) "His Secret Doctrine, however, differed in no wise from that of the initiated Brahmins of his day. The Buddha was a child of the Aryan soil, a born Hindu, a Kshatrya and a disciple of the 'twice born' (the initiated Brahmins) of Dwijas. His teachings, therefore, could not be different from their doctrines .." (pg. xxi) I suspect but can't say for sure that the anatman doctrine, whatever it is, is like his answer to a Pharisee-like question about reincarnation, "I neither say that the soul reincarnates, nor that it doesn't." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:33:29 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: weird dreams Message-ID: <199706011851.OAA00834@ultra1.dreamscape.com> dear Estrella, I don't think anyone can tell you about what your weird dreams mean better than you can yourself... especially not from the US to Mexico. Also, if you saw the Masters, it is very difficult to determine whether it was they or an illusion. I know of such cases where the experts debated for years, and things were still inconclusive. liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:42:40 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: money making in the TS Message-ID: <199706011900.PAA07199@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Is Making Money A TS Concern? I think "yes", to the extent that TS units need money for PR, and other current expenses. I think "no", as far as being for profit. I think spiritual things are not for profit, but I also think that one needn't starve just because one has spiritual things to peddle. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 14:04:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: the way ahead Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970601190438.00c21958@mail.eden.com> At 02:42 PM 6/1/97 -0400, liesel f. deutsch wrote: >I agree with Adam & Einar. I prefer a network to a hierarchy. I thought >that's what Theosophy International set out to be ... a network. >Liesel > Network is here. It is only a question of time that network will overrun hierarchy. In a network, you are on your own with support and help from friends. There is no above to whom you beg or plead or request for help. It is easy to look up a hierarchy and follow orders like a sheep in the hope that some day such blind obedience may lead you to enlightenment or whereever. IMHO, what is needed in today's world is not a crowd of sheep but committed enterprising and creative and caring individuals who are fired up with enthusiasm to go into action and try to "change" the world. World needs results badly not idle philosophy and action in the cloud. Just my 2 cents worth. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:58:25 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Adam Warcup Message-ID: <199706011916.PAA18217@ultra1.dreamscape.com> I was really saddened to read that Adam is no longer a member of the TS. I've never met Adam personally, but I've watched him teach on several videotapes, and I've learned from a superb teacher. I consider him one of our brightest, most imaginative, and well-informed Theosophists. Too many talented people (I know of others) are leaving the Society. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 14:07:39 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: more questions Message-ID: <199706011925.PAA24704@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Estrella, No, doubt you can reach the masters or other things you wish for in your dreams. Whatever you dream about is real enough for you. So for you, if you feel you reached the masters in your dreams, then it's really true for you. Only someone else might not believe you, and I don't think you can persuade them. As for sex, I think that anyone you have a relationship with has an influence on you. If you like what that person is, you'll try to become more like them; if you dislike what they are, you may try to become just the opposite because of the contact. It depends. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 14:18:03 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: ts money making Message-ID: <199706011935.PAA01551@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Some people have to >gather the food, raise the funds, see to the material side of life, so >that others can devote their energies to a spiritual life. I rather agree with the Zen idea of mixing spirituality with the everyday. To me, spirituality is valueless on its own, unless it's applied. So I'd rather devote some of my energies to spiritual life, and some to raising food (except that I don't raise it, I buy it and cook it.) Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 14:24:44 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: sincerity Message-ID: <199706011942.PAA06218@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >>Curios statement Doss...any good businessman can tell at a handshake >>whether a person is geniune or not...for esoteric matters good humor, >>good cheer and impersonality relating to positions on issues are good >>indicators...but it's really an assessment of the heart... >> >>P > > I agree that it is an assessment of the heart. Again sense of humor is >always good no matter what the situation is. > >...doss ................................................ Scuse me, if I put in my 2 cents worth to this discussion. The only people I know who can actually read thoughts and can know whether a person is sincere or not is Harry Van Gelder, and his sister Dora. Such people can tell whether someone is sincere. Us other ordinary folks, seems to me, have to guess, which is sometimes easier and sometimes harder, but it's always just that, a good guess, and has nothing much to do with what one's occupation happens to be. That's my opinion. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 15:19:37 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS and its Future Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970601201937.006c47e0@mail.eden.com> Hello I just saw a very scholarly and thought provoking article on the TS and its Future by G. A. Farthing in the Theosophy World #12, June 1, 1997 which appeared in the May, 1997 issue of HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST. Anyone interested in Theosophy and TS will find it very interesting reading and may be we all should ponder about the various items he discussed. Due to the length of the article, it is posted in 3 parts. I am told that Farthing wants it to be as widely read and circulated as possible. Some of you may even want to makes copies available to other fellow theosophists. Hope you will enjoy reading it. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 15:22:00 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS and its Future (Part 1 of 3) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970601202200.007385e8@mail.eden.com> > From: Theosophy World Editor > Subject: Theosophy World #12, June 1, 1997 (Part 2) THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY AND ITS FUTURE by Geoffrey A. Farthing [from the May, 1997 HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST] HISTORICAL BACKGROUND Towards the end of the 19th century, even though their colleagues in the 'Brotherhood' did not feel that the time was opportune, i.e. that humanity generally had not progressed spiritually enough even though a few may have done so, two Masters of the Wisdom were allowed to make the attempt to make available to mankind in general some of their occult knowledge concerning the nature of existence and man's being. Up till then this had been kept secret. The Theosophical Society, founded in New York in 1875, was formed originally as an association of people interested in spiritualism and psychic phenomena. Its early objects reflected this but they were soon to become, after a few changes, as they are now, with an emphasis on brotherhood. The Headquarters of the Society was removed to Bombay in 1880 and then to Adyar in 1883. Although the Masters were emphatic that the Society was not to be a school of Occultism or Magic and that their sole purpose was to benefit mankind at large, they nevertheless in various ways let it be known not only that they were possessed of occult knowledge and power but that they were able and willing to make some of it available to suitable candidates. This was to be done principally in the writings of H.P. Blavatsky, but some information was given directly by the two Masters concerned in their letters to A.P. Sinnett. Some of this knowledge was distinct from that contained in any extant literature at the time, with the exception of some older and/or obscure 'occult' writings. These were mostly unintelligible without the necessary 'keys'. It was claimed, however, that the knowledge contained in the new outpouring was the source and origin of all philosophical and religious knowledge, in its pure form. The old scriptures and philosophical writings had been 'contaminated' by human interpretation, additions and alterations. They had to a large extent departed from the pure original and had distorted their meanings. The first major attempt at elucidation of this ancient knowledge was the writing of ISIS UNVEILED by HPB published in 1877, a work of enormous erudition in which 1,330 other works. some of great rarity and antiquity were quoted from. It is known that several Masters had a hand in it, providing HPB with much of the information it contains. This Ancient Wisdom was later more fully and specifically described in THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P. SINNETT, from which he wrote two books: THE OCCULT WORLD and later ESOTERIC BUDDHISM. This latter, although by no means complete or wholly accurate, is important as being the first systematic formulation, in outline, of what was later to become known as Theosophy. The books were published in 1884 and 1885. From 1875 onwards HPB's almost continuous output of articles and letters contained aspects of the teachings. These writings are now collected together and edited in fourteen volumes of Collected Writings. HPB was with the Theosophical Society in India for about two years during which time her phenomena and contacts with the Masters were amply demonstrated. A number of people, however, even at Headquarters did not accept these manifestations as genuine. Furthermore, the phenomena were completely beyond the credence of the local church missionaries. Some letters purporting to come from HPB addressed to members of the staff at Adyar clearly gave the impression that HPB's phenomena were based on deception. After a lengthy enquiry by an investigator from the Society for Psychical Research who relied much on adverse witnesses and a hand-writing expert he declared HPB to be a fraud. This was in a document adopted by the SPR which later became known as the Hodgson Report. It has~been repudiated since by a number of investigators, latterly even by the SPR. One tragic outcome of the report was that HPB, who in any case at the time was in poor health, was advised to leave Adyar. After leaving India HPB traveled to England via Germany and Belgium. During this time she was occupied as and when health and other circumstances permitted, in writing THE SECRET DOCTRINE which was published in 1888 in London. This was her most important theosophical work. It is an exposition of all of the Ancient Wisdom that the Masters were then prepared to make public. It is an enormous work in which 1,100 other works are referred to and in which ancient (and modern) religions and philosophies are explained and form a background to an immense system of knowledge of the whole universal scene and man in it. HPB was miraculously kept alive by her Master on two or three occasions of dire illness, to complete the work which was followed two years later by THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. On a number of occasions it was stressed that HPB was the Masters' sole agent. With her departure from Adyar their influence there ceased. One consequence of this was that most of their Chelas 'disappeared' (including Damodar who never returned to the Society from Tibet). We also have her positive statement that, should she for any reason cease to act as the Masters' agent, there would be no more contact with them (see M.L.136, 2nd and 3rd editions). All this seems to have been forgotten or ignored later. A number of people both within the Society and without, e.g. Alice Bailey, later claimed to have contact with the Masters and to have received communications from them. These communications, some of them very copious and impressive, were, however, received psychically or 'channeled': very importantly they were all uncorroborated. Communications through psychic mediums was not the method used by the Masters. These facts, the nature of the message and the special position of HPB, are of prime importance in the consideration of what followed in the early 20th century, of the present state of the Society and its successful launch into the 21st century. ANNIE BESANT In the latter years of HPB's life a significant event was that Annie Besant was welcomed with open arms into the Theosophical Society by HPB who saw in her an exceptional and able helper. She was later admitted to HPB's Inner Group of twelve. A reference to Annie Besant in THE MAHATMA LETTERS indicates that she was known to the Masters; however, there is no reference to her ever becoming a chela, although she did receive in 1900 what seems to be an authentic letter from the Masters. There is no other evidence, apart from her own inferences, that she had any contact with them. Had Annie Besant been a chela her 'magnetization' by Chakravati, ostensibly to 'align her principles', described in an eye witness statement (1895) by Dr Archibald Keightly, would have severed any relations she may have had with her Master. After HPB's death Annie Besant let it be inferred, in assuming the "Outer Headship" of the E.S., that she was in touch with the Masters. She also introduced Co-Masonry into England and associated it with the Theosophical Society, which, however, had been founded quite independently of any other organization. All international Presidents since have, however, held high office as Co-Masons. HPB expressly stated that 'we do not meddle in politics ...' yet Annie Besant's prime interest in India was political. This is not in any way to say that she did not do an immense amount of good in establishing schools and colleges and altering social practices, but these activities are not specifically theosophical. Politics aims to change systems for the benefit of people; Theosophy aims to change people themselves for the long-term benefit of humanity itself. It is undeniable that in the early years of her membership of the Society,` Annie Besant was a powerful voice in the cause of Theosophy and its dissemination. This seems to have been foreseen by HPB However, from the time of her 'magnetization' by Chakravati, it appears that, possibly still under his influence, she to a large extent espoused Hinduism. This is evident in her later writings to such a point that a major reference to Theosophy in the Encyclopedia Britannica is under the heading of Hinduism. Apart from Chakravati there is not much doubt that Annie Besant was later also much influenced by C.W. Leadbeater. He obviously prevailed upon her in the matter of the Liberal Catholic Church and in the Krishnamurti incident. C.W. LEADBEATER CWL joined the Society in 1883. He did not, unlike Annie Besant receive a welcome from HPB, nor was he admitted to her Inner Group. He was given some instruction by a regular chela at Adyar for a period and developed his clairvoyance but there is no reference that this relationship continued. He did receive a reply to his early communication with the Masters but there is no corroborative evidence that he ever had any more contact with them after these introductory letters. It also came to light that his veracity is much in question: his statements, for example, about his age, his family in South America, and his implying that he had been to Oxford as an undergraduate were discovered later to be false. In the light of what the Master K.H. said about God, religion and the priestly caste in Mahatma Letter X, had Leadbeater been a chela he could never have allied himself with the Liberal Catholic Church and certainly he could never have allowed himself to be made a Bishop and thereafter always dress as such. The Masters had said "Our chief aim is to deliver humanity of this nightmare ... etc. " (A personal God of Theology) (M.L.X, 2nd and 3rd editions). This is important in the light of CWL's later claims of an intimate and continued relationship with not only one but a number of Masters, even up to the highest in the Hierarchy from whom he claimed periodically to have received instruction in such matters as the upbringing of Krishnamurti. In the light of some of these supposed contacts e.g. Comte St Germain, Jesus, etc. the association of the Liberal Catholic Church with the Society was justified. However, both the Church and the Co Masons were representative of past dispensations. They both had their roots in ceremonial magic, the practice of which HPB did not endorse on account of the possible dangers involved. In a letter which Damodar wrote to Sinnett, Masonry and Rosicrucianism were specifically forbidden (M.L. Old Edition No. 142A, Chronological No. 14A). During the founding of the Society it had been proposed that the Society might become Masonic. This was specifically decided against. Other behavior of the then leaders is also questionable. In view of HPB's sundry comments about Masonry (into which she was admitted on account of her knowledge of it, but never formally 'initiated'), having lost its secrets, how came it that the Leaders of the Society not only espoused Co-Masonry but the Egyptian Rite which CWL together with a colleague in Australia had devised and which is still widely practiced by some members in the E.S.? KRISHNAMURTI Krishnamurti was 'discovered' by CWL in 1909. After many difficulties, including law suits, he and his brother were brought up by the Society. He was hailed as the future mouthpiece of the Lord Maitreya He was even seen as a second coming of the Lord. He was unusually gifted but it was CWL's 'insights' that initially established him in his role. The Lord Maitreya himself is supposed to have instructed CWL in his upbringing and training. He was brought up and groomed in the fashion of an English gentleman, a far cry from a Hindu 'Avatar'. Those who had his upbringing and education in hand, notably CWL and Dick Balfour-Clark, were very much second generation theosophists. Krishnaji therefore probably never knew anything of the HPB/Masters teachings. It is also very doubtful whether Krishnaji himself ever had a first-hand 'Master' experience although he did describe once having seen three Masters in a vision. Had he had a real experience, however, he could neither have forgotten it nor thereafter have doubted their existence and later have repudiated them. Furthermore, as Krishnaji's teachings of freedom, self-reliance, non-dependence on authority and institutions and so on, are all virtually in proper accord with the 'Master' Theosophy, there would not have been any reason for him to repudiate it, nor his connection with the Society. His loss was that he never became acquainted with the sea of theosophical knowledge which would to a large extent not only have justified his views but provided him with relevant data for use in his teaching, e.g. the difference between the personality and the individuality, the essential idea of Unity, and had he been interested, the proper nature of the Self, the total cosmic structure and processes. His 'launching' was a reversion again, as in the case of the Liberal Catholic Church and the Co-Masons, to the traditional old dispensation of an authoritarian regime. The second coming of the Christ was at that time (1920's) being regarded as imminent whereas, according to the Masters and theosophical teaching, such a 'second coming', i.e. the advent of an Avatar, was not expected for millennia. In any case the severance of the Society from the Masters made such a 'coming' into it extraordinarily unlikely. The arrogance of those who professed to be able to elect Krishnaji's twelve disciples was an example of the distorted view of themselves that those leaders had. Surely an 'Avatar' would have been quite capable of electing his own disciples. In any case in the nature of Karma his upbringing and earthly surroundings would have all been in proper accord without the interference of CWL. Many things are puzzling about Krishnaji's upbringing: one was that from reports kitchen staff at Adyar were changed because they were of the wrong caste. In a Society which specifically allows no such distinctions this is hard to understand. The recognition of Krishnaji's spiritual development from a clairvoyant examination of his aura when he was so young undoubtedly demonstrated CWL's possession of that faculty but this does not corroborate his claim to have received messages from the 'King of the World'. The 'finding' of Krishnaji, his upbringing and then adoption as a vehicle for the Lord-Maitreya was virtually the culmination of the 'split' from Master Theosophy. Krishnaji's repudiation of this position was a serious blow to Annie Besant who obviously believed absolutely sincerely in her announcement of the New Coming. CWL's reaction to this repudiation seems to have been more limited and far less painful than Annie Besant's although he suffered a loss of stature that he would otherwise have had as the finder, sponsor and educator of this new divine vehicle. After Krishnaji's withdrawal from the Society, Annie Besant also suffered a gradual diminution in stature and thereafter her health failed progressively. ------- end Part 1/3 ----------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 15:23:33 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS and its Future (Part 2 of 3) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970601202333.0074a3b0@mail.eden.com> Part 2/3 SECOND GENERATION THEOSOPHY The fact that neither Annie Besant nor CWL, after maybe one or two initial incidents, was actually in touch with any Master although they may have genuinely believed they were has serious implications when considering what they said and did when they assumed positions of authority. The whole tenor of the Society thereafter was one of make-believe! It became a pantomime, largely devised and orchestrated by CWL: a fairy story, but with a thread of truth running through it. Except for passing references to HPB as 'our revered teacher', her literature as such was seldom referred to or studied. There was, however, a flood of literature purporting to be 'theosophical' from both Annie Besant and CWL, and later from others. CWL's writings were largely colored by his own real or imaginary clairvoyant insights and his interpretations of them. It is noteworthy here that, in the HPB/ Masters literature there is very little reference to, and no diagrams of, the Chakras so much featured by later writers. What little there is is in the papers to the Inner Group (incorporated by Annie Besant into her Vol III of the S.D. ) Whereas the Annie Besant and CWL literature can be criticized from a purely theosophical point of view, much of -what Annie Besant wrote was significant spiritual instruction. It was, however, of the conventional, classical religious type, derived largely from the Indian scriptures but with a Christian and a 'theosophical' flavor. She had reviewed THE SECRET DOCTRINE at the time of its publication; this must have made a lasting impression on her but apart from acknowledging her debt to HPB, she seldom, if ever, specifically referred back to its teaching, or to that in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. CWL seems never to have read either of these books. He puts himself in a very false position as an 'occult' author in the Introduction to his book THE ASTRAL PLANE where he says that his manuscript was considered so excellent as an exposition that the Masters wanted it for their archives. It is difficult to see why this should be; much of the information given us in the book is at variance with their teaching and furthermore it is not clear, for example, which 'astral' plane he is describing, the HPB or the A.B./ CWL one, the former being the 2nd plane of Nature and the latter being the 4th. There is also no mention of the 'etheric double' in the HPB/Masters classification of the human principles. It is to this double that CWL ascribes many of the qualities that HPB attributes to her astral body. The changes of numbering of the principles where Kama (emotion, desire) was put 2nd instead of 4th is important. An aid to the understanding of THE SECRET DOCTRINE is analogy and correspondences. In the Masters' literature Kama as the 4th principle is emphasized in the evolutionary stages of development in the 4th Round, the 4th Race, the 4th Substance, not the 2nd. One example of the extent to which the members of the Theosophical Society, from senior members to the newest, were 'infected' by CWL is exemplified by Jinarajadasa's acceptance of the fact that CWL's Astral Plane manuscript had in fact been transmitted magically to the Masters. Obviously also Jinarajadasa's statement that he, in common with others, had had several initiations about which he knew nothing except what CWL told him, again raises the question of CWL's veracity. As the years progressed the divergence between the HPB/Masters teachings and the second generation Theosophy widened; even basic information was changed, e.g. the introduction of the 'etheric double' (with four 'etheric' states of physical matter), the alterations to the classification of principles and planes, and the CWL account of the after-death states which is quite different from that of the Masters, etc. The divergence of the two systems became clearly apparent with the publication of the Mahatma Letters in 1924/5. It was unfortunate that, for a number of reasons, their publication had been delayed till then. Apart from 'occult' material in them, these letters set a background of specific purpose to the founding of the Society. This was closely related to the Masters being regarded as one tier of membership in the Society, with their accepted Chelas as a second and the ordinary members a third. To begin with this was the case but it obviously ceased to be so on HPB's death (if not before). An attempt to reintroduce it by edict later was obviously spurious. The Letters also describe in some detail the conditions that were essential for a relationship between the Masters and their Chelas. These conditions were very stringent, particularly aregarding honesty and straightforwardness. In the period after HPB's death and with the withdrawal of the Masters once again into obscurity, instead of direct guidance from or association with the Master, even if it were visiting him in the Astral, the practice grew up of this being done indirectly. For example, people were taken to the Masters in their astral bodies for initiations etc., but about which next day they knew nothing apart from what they were told. In one or two places the Masters do say that this can happen in the matter of training but not by proxy. Further, initiations are matters of enhancement of waking consciousness and this can occur only when certain conditions created necessarily by the pupil, not someone on his behalf, have been met. THE PRESENT Regardless of the state of the Society, thanks to the Masters' insistence and help, and the sacrifices of HPB, the world and particularly the Society have a voluminous and authentic Initiate-Master-inspired literature. The Society itself is now a world-wide organization of an idealistic and benevolent nature, inspired by the idea of universal brotherhood, but the second and third objects are interpreted very loosely and widely to include anything from UFO's to what is generally extra- ordinary and sensational. All this, however, against a background of what might be termed 'religion' or spirituality, mostly by way of, for example, the Eastern exoteric scriptures and various ideas on Theosophy, methods of yoga and meditation. There is also in some places a strong adherence to the Liberal Catholic Church and Co-Masonry as if they were indeed part of the theosophical movement. In some places, notably Africa, the Theosophical Society is identified with the Theosophical Order of Service. Charity is impressed on every member through the brotherhood idea; there are however hundreds of charitable organizations to work for and there can be nothing special about the 'theosophical' one to warrant its association with the Society. Similarly the Round Table is an admirable organization but again nothing in it is specifically theosophical. Theosophical Science groups while keeping interested members informed of current scientific matters have seldom if ever related science to anything specifically associated therewith in the classical theosophical literature. Because some scientific members have found faults and inconsistencies in 'scientific' statements in the literature they have abandoned the whole grand theosophical system, demonstrating at least a lack of a sense of proportion. Where older Lodges have survived, and in Section central libraries, books on Theosophy on display or listed in catalogues, are mostly those of the second generation writers. Their contents on the whole are taken to be Theosophy without question. A few individuals try to correct this situation but their influence generally is very small. Only a scattered and desultory interest is paid to the classical 'theosophical literature of the HPB/ Masters era. The idea is widespread that the jealously guarded freedom of thought of members can mean that anyone's views or opinions about 'theosophy' can be put out as such. This was certainly the case in the early days of the 20th century. It was almost vehemently stressed then that there was no such thing as a definite 'theosophical' system of thought, knowledge or teaching. The great fear was of 'dogmatism'. This word, however, was, and still is in places, wrongly applied. A dogma means an obligatory belief and no such thing is imposed on Theosophical Society members. This does not mean that there are not authoritative statements of fact such as those given us by the Masters, who claim to know what they speak or write about, i.e. they are not speculating, voicing opinions or advancing theories. All beliefs concerning Theosophy and the Theosophical Society ought seriously to be questioned against what can easily be discovered of the original teachings and intentions for the Society. A serious perusal of THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY will do this. What is said above about 'make-believe' in the Society also applies to the E.S. The implied connection of it with the Masters through the Outer Head is an example. There is in fact no such connection. Furthermore, the implication by secrecy, or even privacy, that it possesses some esoteric knowledge which it can impart to members is also 'make-believe'. It makes an appeal to would-be aspirants to chelaship and imposes some preliminary disciplines but omits the necessity for hard work in studying and assimilating the eternal verities of Theosophy as given by the Masters. --------- end of part 2/3 ---------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 15:24:11 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS and its Future (Part 3 of 3) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970601202411.00710ef4@mail.eden.com> Part 3/3 THE FUTURE First the Adyar Society must take an honest look, fearlessly, at the present position against the background outlined above. Loyalties to past leaders, to their personal influence and their teachings, must become secondary issues. This means an acknowledgment that all that happened to the Society as a result of C.W. Leadbeater's influence on it, directly or indirectly, his influence on Annie Besant and his enduring influence by way of his writings, is suspect. It must be recognized that these writings are 'theosophically' defective and misleading. Annie Besant's influence, by reason of her long term as President, must also be very objectively assessed. Whatever her personal integrity she was obviously misled and mistaken, witness the Krishnamurti fiasco, her espousal of Co-Masonry as part of the Theosophical Society and her handling of the Judge 'case' with its disastrous results. For most members a change of mind or basic beliefs will at best be painful and at worst difficult if not impossible. This means that only a section of the existing membership can, in the first instance at any rate, be expected to make any radical change, and this section will necessarily include E.S. members who will obviously have their loyalties but they will also presumably have acquired some self-reliance and have learned to think independently. Some members already have or will have difficulty with the question of their membership of the Liberal Catholic Church and CoMasonry in the light of their long standing association with the Society. Many of these institutions have in fact been regarded as 'theosophical', even theosophy itself. However, it is necessary that the Society should formally declare that henceforth neither of them is really any part of, or has any special association with, the Theosophical Society. This does not mean that members are not free to join the Liberal Catholic or any other Church, or become Masons or members of any other institution they wish, provided that they are not inimical or antithetical to Theosophy, and still be members of the Society. The Society has its own special message to promulgate. This message only exists in the writings of HPB and in the Mahatma Letters. This message in its completeness (as far as it was given out) is unique. The future direction of the Society must therefore include: 1) The eradication of the 'make-believe' Leadbeater influence - in all departments including literature, and severance from the Society of all other organizations, i.e. the Liberal Catholic Church and Co-Masonry. 2) A thorough examination of all literature purporting to be 'theosophical', and a brave declaration, and no further promotion, of any which is not wholly consonant with the original teachings. This is no proscription but all books purporting to be theosophical which strictly are not should be clearly labeled or marked that they are the author's views on the subject and not necessarily authentic. Members are, of course, free to read what they like but they can be warned, if not guided. The section in any Theosophical Society library purporting to be theosophical literature should be segregated from other material offered, be clearly marked and the books given prominence on book lists, catalogues, etc. 3) The retention and promotion of the three objects of the Society plus an active promotion of~Theosophy as given by the Masters 4) At all Theosophical Society Centers, Headquarters, etc., there should be someone qualified to discuss Theosophy, say what it is, and recommend books to enquirers. This service should as far as possible be available at all times or a notice displayed as to where it can be obtained. 5) Commercialism in any form, i.e. book selling or publication as such, without specific reference to the promotion of a knowledge of Theosophy, is not part of the legitimate activities of the Society. 'Fringe' literature can be obtained in ordinary bookshops or from other organizations, e.g. the Arcane School, the Anthroposophical Society, etc. This recommendation is made with our second object specifically in mind. Study of comparative religion is encouraged by the Society but it does not have to publish or supply the books. 6) Professionalism in the society should be examined. Whereas 'goods and services' must obviously be paid for, Theosophy as such cannot be sold. Should exponents be paid? If so, to what extent? 7) Serious study of the 'prime' literature, whatever else is done in Lodges, at Centers, etc., should be encouraged and all facilities provided. Facilities should be provided for meditation - quiet and solitude if possible. Meditation should, however, be 'theosophical', i.e. classical (Patanjali), HPB Diagram, or just silence, not according to local gurus and amateurs with 'special' methods, and NEVER for money. 8) The Society will obviously need a group of students dedicated to the study of the literature and to the dissemination of what they discover both in the writings, and in themselves, as they progress. This can be supplied by some of the existing members of the E.S. At present there are no 'esoteric' leaders or teachers in the Society; it will therefore in this respect have to 'lift itself up by its own boot-laces' as the expression has it. There is no justification for secrecy within the E.S. or the Society but on occasion private members meetings could be efficacious for discussion, exchange of information, mutual encouragement, etc. There is obviously now no corporate connection with the Masters so that that 'make-believe' can be dispensed with. The E.S. study should be confined to the Master or HPB writings. The Society has no other Initiate-inspired literature. Where the E.S. members feel they need inspirational literature apart from books like THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE, LIGHT ON THE PATH and some of the classical mystical works like THE BHAGAVAD GITA, as this is a personal matter they should be free to discover their own. Discrimination as to what is consonant with theosophical teachings will grow. Let students beware of self-styled teachers and of themselves posing as such. They will know when they really are qualified - they will have been 'authorized'. Let none pretend. 9) The Society's relation to 'computerization', the Internet, etc., needs serious examination and Sections given guidelines. ABOUT THEOSOPHY HPB used the words Occultism, Esotericism, Esoteric Science, etc., as synonymous with Theosophy. In THE SECRET DOCTRINE she states several times that some of the teaching given there had never been made public before. These statements indicate that the teachings included more material than was contained in any published religious or philosophic literature. This distinction has been almost entirely overlooked. The great Hindu scriptures have been taken virtually to be Theosophy. Initiated Brahmins know this is not the case but they keep their esoteric knowledge to themselves. This was the position when HPB made some of that knowledge public: it was much resented even -by Subba Rao whose Master incidentally was the same as HPB's. All extant scriptures are exoteric even though in their mystical content they reflect much of what is in Theosophy. Such treatises as THE BHAGAVAD GITA, the Puranas, many Sufi writings and other world acknowledged scriptural writings are beautiful and inspiring, potentially capable of leading aspirants on to the highest experiences. Neither they nor Hinduism nor Buddhism, in their published form, are 'esoteric', nor of course is the now published THE SECRET DOCTRINE except that its prolonged study changes our modes of thinking and understanding, giving us insights we could otherwise not get. What do the theosophical writings include that others do not? While the differences might appear superficial in themselves, in their totality they are not. For example, the Hindu system is fivefold, as far as the human principles and the skandhas are concerned, whereas the theosophical system is sevenfold. The planes of Nature are sevenfold, with each having a corresponding level of consciousness. In Theosophy Karma is a comprehensive Law applying universally, not just to human beings by way of reward or retribution. Theosophy contains the vast evolutionary scheme by Chains, Globes, Rounds and Races which process by analogy applies to all manifest things, e.g. all those 'things' comprising the kingdoms of Nature. Incidentally, properly there are no 'things'; every 'thing' is a life. Some 'esoteric' systems of the past, notably the original Kabala, had reflections, in some instances almost exact, of the theosophical scheme, but they were neither so comprehensive nor so explicit. In THE SECRET DOCTRINE for example, HPB relates much of the theosophical teaching to the principal world religions and explains much of their symbolism and practices. Some of this is also dealt with in ISIS UNVEILED wherein the student can find exciting insights and many explanations of even obscure ancient writings. It is a mine of information leading up to the comprehensive and relatively systematized exposition in THE SECRET DOCTRINE of as much of the Ancient Wisdom as could be published then. All this knowledge was in addition to that of the 'mystical' information and teachings in exoteric literature. The outpouring of information and teaching given in THE SECRET DOCTRINE pushed forward the boundaries of knowledge several steps beyond what was then otherwise available to the layman. To a very large extent this has been ignored by the world and much more sadly even by the majority of members of the Theosophical Society, who according to THE KEY have the special responsibility "of letting it be known that such a thing as Theosophy exists". They cannot possibly do that if they themselves do not know what it is. The Maha Chohan uses the expression "to popularize a knowledge of Theosophy". Where this has been heeded at all it has been taken to mean the rendering of the vast and erudite teachings of Theosophy into a form suitable for assimilation by the general populace. Quite obviously this cannot be done and any attempt to do so must at least oversimplify the grand concepts and at worst dilute them until their profundity and inner meaning is completely lost. Such an attempt to 'popularize' Theosophy in this way, to make it appeal to people who otherwise cannot comprehend it, is virtual sacrilege. This, however, is a tactic used to increase membership of the Society. The Society's three objects are popular, for anybody to subscribe to, but apart from letting it be known as widely as possible that it exists, Theosophy itself cannot be popularized. This is something that has to be accepted when considering the future of the Society. We must never forget the nature of the original writings. No attempt was made even in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, to 'simplify' or 'dilute' the subject matter. They were written to appeal to the 'highest minds', who in turn, as far as possible, would disseminate their content to others, i.e the grand ideas would percolate down and so influence all society. A consequence of the virtual substitution of the original literature by that of the second generation writers has meant that there has been very little follow-up material in the HPB/Masters vein. There is, however, enough to introduce the subject to intending students. To comprehend Theosophy one has to make a serious and prolonged effort. In Bowen's Notes "Madame Blavatsky on How to Study Theosophy", HPB explained to him, "This mode of thinking is what the Indians call Jnana Yoga" and then mentioned the likely experiences that may arise. But nothing can happen without the effort. The Theosophical Society was founded at the instigation of the Masters with a sublime object in view: the salvation of the whole human race by a 'popularization' of their teachings. Surely we can attempt to do this to the limit of our capacity. Let us try! ------- end Part 3/3 ----------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:33:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <970601163305_-764139495@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-31 11:52:40 EDT, Chuck wrote: > > it would be too likely interpreted as a > >license for self-indulgence. > > So? I've practiced self-indulgence without a license for many years. > > Chuck the Heretic Here in California where the state motto is "It's only for your own good" and the state bird is the nagpie, you'd be pulled over and fined for that. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:38:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <970601193846_-1531178090@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-01 16:35:59 EDT, you write: >Here in California where the state motto is "It's only for your own good" and >the state bird is the nagpie, you'd be pulled over and fined for that. ;-D > > See my response to Alan. If the State of California is up to that, it is in violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1866. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:21:48 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Orphans all ... Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970601143901.0072725c@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes > After all helping the suffering "Orphan Humanity" seems to me to be >more important than all the detailed information relating to man and the >universe. Indeed it is, yet for many the detailed information (if reliable - check it out) can make the work a bit easier. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:18:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <2Vc7eLAZNgkzEwz8@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970601133253_-895323573@emout04.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-05-31 20:17:25 EDT, you write: > >>I hereby fine you $500, payable to me. >> >>Alan > >Sorry, American law does not permit licensing for indulgence. It violates >the First and fourteenth amendments. (Dewey, Cheatem and Howe vs. Kansas >1966) > >Chuck the Heretic BLAST! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:54:00 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: TS and its Future (Part 2 of 3) Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970601202333.0074a3b0@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes (quoting Geoffrey Farthing): >Further, initiations are matters of enhancement of >waking consciousness and this can occur only when certain >conditions created necessarily by the pupil, not someone on his >behalf, have been met. Exactly right. 'Initiations' are also 'new beginnings' and not necessarily singular events taking place on a specific occasion, but may be the culmination of a process lasting some considerable time. In any event, the student who is initiated (has his or her consciousness *permanently* enhanced) would by implication and by definition have to be fully conscious of the fact of it. Such 'Initiation' is an awakening to a newer and 'higher' level of experience which the becomes part of that person's regular equipment. AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:33:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: research question Message-ID: In message <199706011850.LAA12109@palrel1.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >Mark Kusek wrote: > >> Being composed of elements that partake of both Hindu and Buddhist >> thought (among other things), can anyone tell me how theosophy has >> resolved the difference between the traditional Hindu view of Atman and >> Brahman and the quite succint refutation of these concepts by Buddhism >> (for example, in the Buddhist doctrine of anatman)? > >> Is there some overarching theosophical perspective that reconciles this >> direct philosophical opposition? > >I'd also be interested in what our learned list members have to say on >this. (Paging scholarly, but down-to-earth Alan). But I have a general >comment. Not scholarly on this one, Titus! I wold comment, however, that from an outside viewpoint, there could be said to a number of theosophies, not all of which are in 100% agreement, on the surface at least. My own specialist area is Kabalah, which is *a* theosophy, but different in some respects from HPB and other theosophies. And my Kabalah is different in some respects from that of other Kabalists. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:23:00 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: the way ahead Message-ID: In message <199706011842.OAA24930@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >I agree with Adam & Einar. I prefer a network to a hierarchy. I thought >that's what Theosophy International set out to be ... a network. >Liesel > So it did. If only it were used more ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:11:04 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Providence Arriving, but... Message-ID: <$FI5aCAIGgkzEwTM@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <3390CAFB.3034@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > "Who do you think sent the bus, the boat, and the helicopter?", asked >God. I have long loved this tale - it says a great deal about the human condition! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 21:07:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Orphans all ... Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970602020739.00c2c0b8@mail.eden.com> At 08:03 PM 6/1/97 -0400, you wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970601143901.0072725c@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss > writes >> After all helping the suffering "Orphan Humanity" seems to me to be >>more important than all the detailed information relating to man and the >>universe. > >Indeed it is, yet for many the detailed information (if reliable - check >it out) can make the work a bit easier. > Agreed. Even if you are a good driver, knowing something of the mechanics of the car does help. Just an analogy. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:22:04 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Celibacy and Spirituality Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970602042204.006ce7b4@mail.eden.com> Hello Here is an excerpt from a recent book by Mary Lutyens on Krishnamurti, where she discusses the issue of Celibacy. I think it is a very interesting point of view. ..........doss ===================================== And he [K] never "presented" himself as being celibate. According to the tenets of Leadbeater-Theosophy, celibacy was essential for any aspirant to the Path of Discipleship but K broke away entirely from Theosophy and its tenets in 1929 and thereafter often spoke publicly against celibacy. Here are a few quotations from his published talks to prove this point: "So-called holy men have maintained that you cannot come near God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with And again: "I think we should understand what love and chastity are. The vow of chastity is not chastity at all, for below the words the craving goes on and trying to suppress it in different ways, religious and otherwise, is a form of ugliness which, in its very essence, is unchaste. The chastity of the monk, with his vows and denials, is essentially worldliness which is unchaste. All forms of resistance build a wall of separateness which turns life into a battlefield; and so life becomes not chaste at all." And yet again: "To deny sex is another form of brutality; it is there, it is a fact. When we are intellectual slaves, endlessly repeating what others have said, when we are following, obeying, imitating, then a whole avenue of life is closed; when action is merely a mechanical repetition and not a free movement, then there is no release; when there is this incessant urge to fulfil, to be, then we are emotionally thwarted, there is a blockage. So sex becomes the one issue which is our very own, which is not second-hand. And in the act of sex there is a forgetting of oneself, one's problems and one's fears. In that act there is no self at all." In answer to a question he was asked at a public meeting, "Is it possible for a man and a woman to live together, to have sex and children, without all the turmoil, bitterness and conflict in such a relationship?" K said, "Can't you fall in love and not have a possessive relationship? I love someone and she loves me and we get marriedÄthat is all perfectly straightforward and simple, in that there is no conflict at all. (When we say we get married I might just as well say we decide to live together.) Can't one have that without the other? Without the tail, as it were, necessarily following? Can't two people be in love and both be so intelligent and so sensitive that there is freedom and an absence of a centre that makes conflict? Conflict is not in the feeling of being in love. The feeling of being in love is utterly without conflict. There is no loss of energy in being in love. The loss of energy is in the tailÄjealousy, possessiveness, suspicion, doubt, the fear of losing that love, the constant demand for reassurance and security. Surely it must be possible to function in a sexual relationship with someone you love without the nightmare which usually follows. Of course it is." ============================== end================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:26:47 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Celibacy and Spirituality Message-ID: <19970601.222730.3335.5.trr@juno.com> On Mon, 2 Jun 1997 00:23:59 -0400 (EDT) M K Ramadoss writes: >Hello > >Here is an excerpt from a recent book by Mary Lutyens on >Krishnamurti, where she discusses the issue of Celibacy. I think it is a >very interesting point of view. > >..........doss >===================================== >in the act of sex there is a forgetting of oneself, one's problems and >one's fears. In that act there is no self at all." Krishnamurti said the darndest things. If sex is a forgetting of self, why are people so selfish about it? He might as well have said that in taking crack cocaine, there is a forgetting of self, since the pleasure of the drug makes one lose sight of self. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 08:55:47 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Celibacy and Spirituality Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970602135547.0073bb48@mail.eden.com> At 02:14 AM 6/2/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >Krishnamurti said the darndest things. If sex is a forgetting of self, >why are people so selfish about it? He might as well have said that in >taking crack cocaine, there is a forgetting of self, since the pleasure >of the drug makes one lose sight of self. I recall the issue of drug was discussed by K in one of his talks. Let me see if I can track it. How I wish I had access to the CD-Rom of his talks, which has been available for quite some time, but beyond my present budget. ..doss .:. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:47:15 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: Thoughts about the Festivals (Jim) Message-ID: <19970602194714611.AAA316@meta.treknet.is> Jim Comments on your post - 25 May on the Festivals: Jim wrote: >Some theosophists are so strict on this that they do not accept anything after >HPB's death; Jim, - tell them to wake up. The Arhats will be with us in the next century, and then they will give us more teaching than ever before. And that will in time lead to this: "Now in those days, brethren, there shall arise in the world an Exalted One by name Metteyya ( the Kindly One ), an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One, endowed with wisdom and righteousness, a Happy One, a World-knower, the peerless Charioteer of men to be tamed, a Teacher of the devas and mankind, an Exalted One, a Buddha like myself. He of his own abnormal powers shall realize and make known the world, and the worlds of the devas, with their Maras, their Brahmas, the host of recluses and brahmins, of devas and mankind alike, even as I do now. He shall proclaim the Norm, lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle, and lovely in the end thereof. He shall make known the wholly perfect life of righteousness in all its purity, both in the spirit and in the letter of it, even as I do now. He shall lead an Order of Brethren numbering many thousands, even as I do now lead an Order of Brethren numbering many hundreds." D.N. iii. 76 >A large group of our Society does not accept CWLeadbeater's writings, >a subset of that group lumps Annie Besant together with CWL, the split >over Krishnamurti continues . . . and so on. By my opinion, these three persons did well, and as well as they could. But each of them made mistakes. Our mistake is to expect to much of them, and thereby accept them with a swallow or expel them with a condemn. >The teachings on the Festivals are predominantly from the Bailey writings,.. The knowledge of the Festivals has always been with us. >Regarding the lesser festivals: >You wrote that the meditation cycles following the moon periods are well >known among theosophists -- I'm not so sure about that. Ours is such a >diverse group that it naturally segments into folks drawn to study of the >SD, or astrology, or tarot, or "New Age" or . . . whatever, but I haven't >noticed any real emphasis here in the USA about the cycles of the moon among >the rank and file membership. Is it different in your country? The Greater Festivals are not dependent on the cycles of the moon. I think it is a mistake to overemphasize the phases of the moon. The full moon periods are useful for meditation. Then the tiny etheric particles move with more speed, and the etheric light brightens. The full moon period is especially useful for spiritual group work. Therefore the Triangles group meditations are most useful at that time. And also; interesting events take place in the Higher Worlds at the periods of full moon. Perhaps you call these events Festivals? When I think of the Festivals, then I have in mind The Festivals of Shambhalla. And then there is, The Great Festival of The Solar Logos, held at Christmas. I am certain that you can find some comments about this Great Festival in the books written by Bailey. Ask your fellow-students about this. They may know. Jim...I wish to make a comment about this letter. I wrote this letter as a sketch, and wrote my mind with the intention to read the letter over, the next morning. But when I read it over, I had a second thought about sending it. I felt that I was saying to much. This letter may be somewhat obscure to some, but others may find in it something useful. It includes compact information. I think it deals with a subject, that we must deal with. There is a flood of esoteric knowledge waiting at our doorsteps. Many students have far more knowledge, than they are willing to present. Too many good students isolate themselves. They are aloof of the group-minds. This must change, if we are to make a strong united progress. Therefore I will send this letter as it is. It is an effort, to open up thought on important facts. I can not give a definite reply to your question. I have only been in USA as a traveler and therefore do not have enough knowledge to judge from. My opinion is; that in my land many pay attention to the full moon period, for the reason to meditate. And also in order to take part in Triangles, and in Triangles group work. The work of Triangles is well known in Iceland. And those who take part in that work, often have a group meeting at the period of full moon, or within a day or so. Triangles group meetings have been held regularly for many years. Those meetings called "Triangles meetings" are held outside in the summer time. In the winter time, Triangles meetings are held weekly at our seminars. There are also other Triangles meetings. I heard about a new group just few days ago formed by persons that take part in the seminars. A Triangle by three persons, and Triangles groups are being formed here and there. In Triangles groups, participants form a pattern of a Triangle by forming three separate groups, and use outspoken powerful invocation as they visualize a white Triangle, between the three standing groups. The Sacred Word Om is also used at Triangles meetings. You know; The Word AUM is pronounced as Om. The correct pronunciation of The Word in Icelandic, is by having comma over the letter O. The Sound is Óm. That is how The Sacred Word is sounded in the Higher Worlds. The sound of The Sacred Word, evokes The Sacred Sound of Fire. And by the way The Sacred Word ends, so begins The Sacred Sound of Fire. The energies of Fire triangularize in descent, when evoked. Therefore Triangles meditations evoke the energies of Spirit. Triangles meditations are the most powerful method we can use, to take part in, and further the Plan of Spiritual Evolution. Even power sentences (mantrams) are not needed. But if used, the meaning must be understood. Then that meaning works out. I will open for you a page of my book of life, in order to explain to you, why and how I know some subjects we are writing about. We can then compare what we know as a fact, and what we have studied as a theory. When I had entered my 22 year of age, walking outside early in a day. I suddenly felt a strong desire to go home, to try my fitness and test my ability and theoretical knowledge, to try to leave the physical body fully awake, and then travel about in the etheric dimensions. I went home and placed myself in a couch. Gradually, I found that my understanding from the studies through the years was incomplete. There were missing links here and there in the method. Step by step, by a trying effort, I recollected old knowledge from inner memory. And by a threefold process of internal commands, and by using a protection power-word, I united my consciousness within the head by inner commands, and with an increasing awakening consciousness. From the head and then through the breath channels, I left the physical body. Tiny is the unit of consciousness as it passes, and loud is the sound of the heart and of the breath when departing. By will I passed the tomb of darkness and The Questioner without any fear of death. - I was free. But what then..? I was not alone, a close friend of mine and also the inner Self - the Soul-man had taken part in the process. This was then a beginning of a gradual upgrading journey, later partaken in by Heavenly choruses and the sounding of The Sacred Word AUM. The person and the soul-man, united in consciousness, face the descending Spirit by its triangularizing method of descent. The method is this way: When the upgrading influence of the choruses had culminated and the power of the repeated sounding of The Sacred Word culminated, - then thundered The Great Sound of Spirit. As it thunders, a tiny white point is seen. The point becomes a star. The star flashes out with fourfold arms. The speed of the rotating center swings the arms to form a Swastika. Within the center, a white Triangle appears. The Triangle rotates not, but enlarges. The speed of the rotating Swastika, then forms many diamond shaped triangles, fast revolving around the enlarging central Triangle. By will, one enters through the Triangle - "The Philosophers Stone" - a mantram is sounded. By that method, I was within the world of Monads - the Diamond World - where the highest form of matter and Fire meets. In that world we see the diamond shaped forms - and inside the Monad forms, we see the descended Fires - the Spirits - the Flames of Life. The Flames of Life which have descended from the Highest to the World of Monads, in order to repeat again, and take part in Systemic Evolution. Monads arrange around the Center of the Monadic Wheel by their ability to graduate energy and to transfer The Sound of Fire. The Monads have basically twofold constitution. That is the transparent Monad form, and the inside struggling Fire of Life - The Spirit - The Flame. Arranged around the center of The Great Wheel of Monads, we can see the liberated Flames - the Adepts - in their various grades of power. The grade of power depends on the ability of the Flame, to transfer The Fire of Spirit to the upsurging Torrent. The Adepts are free of the triangular monadic form, and are as close to us as is our own breath. In the mid-center of the Monadic Wheel one can see The Great Chohan who synthesizes the whole Center and directs the upsurging Torrent of Fire. There are many Monad Wheels, one can come close to them but not enter. Their Sound, Purpose and Rhythm is different. Within the World of Monads one understands the meaning of the word Brotherhood. The Monad Wheels differ in energy graduation. Some are very active, others are not so active. And some have not manifested to physical descent. Monadic Space is endless, similar to looking into nights clear sky. The Monad Universe thrills with Life and Power. The world of Monads is unique. No other world can be compared with it. It seems to me that the higher atmic levels have similar relations to the World of Monads as the three higher subplanes of the mental plane have to the World of Souls. When entering my physical body, it was as if I had entered from within an atomic explosion, such was the energy impact on the body. There was a voice within and in the air of the room, that said: "Be Pure." I walked about for a while and noticed that it was late in a night. I looked out from the window, into the garden and up to the sky. It was full moon. Then I prepared for rest, and went to sleep. Twelve years later I took part in a Festival. The Great Palace of Whom I can not speak, became a fact. The One, Who is our Logos manifested, is young. Among the many interesting facts that became clear, was that we are visited by groups of humans from other Planetary Schemes at such Festivals. A year later, I felt within, a strong will to explore the lower ethers, and to test my fitness. I had had many fights in the ethers and did not know defeat. I was held by a feeling of being invulnerable. Full of vigor I went to the lower spheres. I did not use the protection power-words when leaving the body. I will not try to tell what that journey is like, but when I was about to return I was suddenly confronted by a being of extreme power. A being of Cosmic origin. The One opposing our Logos manifested. A battle was on in extreme speed. It is enough to say, that he got hold of all that within me, that belonged to him. Two lightning's struck each other within my consciousness, one of darkness and one of light. I made it back by will, with my etheric body in pieces. Some do not make it back as free men. They become stuck - remote controlled slaves of the Lord of evil. Some can free themselves later, by extreme effort, if the Spirit is strong. And some make it back dead. This was extremely painful. I felt that I was beginning to recover after about two years. In time, all will pass this experience with the Giant accumulator of dross. And after that, there are only two ways. Most of us enter this trial while at sleep. The nature of our etheric bodies permits only a few, to pass this trial the hard way, - in awake consciousness. Our microcosm is on trial. Then things happens fast - all is tested. Man is then, not given time to think. The "Esoteric Way" is among the dangerous Ways, because we know what is ahead. One should not scoff at the importance of the refinement principle. If the Heart is not at work then the man is in danger. If perversive factors are within, then the man is in danger. Immoral and nonethical fashions of our ages are harmful. Groups can fall. Our World is on trial. To teach "Occultism" without ethics is a sure way to make slaves of evil. Those who hinder the proceeding process of Spiritual Truth, are fossilized. Those who hinder human understanding and approach towards our Logos are remote controlled. Let us not forget that there is a war in the Worlds. This war is between two Cosmic Giants of Power. In the Worlds of our planet, this war is the hardest. Reader, do you know your Way.? Each man must find his Way, and work. We can help in this war by using Triangles meditations - and power sentences - and AUM - thus evoke spiritual energies. >You also asked about references in the Bailey works about the Winter Solstice: >There is an independently-published book entitled MASTER INDEX OF THE >TIBETAN AND ALICE A. BAILEY BOOKS which does not mention any listing of >the Winter Solstice, per se. There are *many* references to the significance of >the Cardinal points, etc. in the book ESOTERIC ASTROLOGY, ... >I wasn't able to find what I think you meant in the Bailey books -- did I >get that right? The Winter festival is particularly associated with the New >Group of World Servers,... This "MASTER INDEX" is no good. I am certain that there is some information on this subject in those books. Try again. Jim, - it is the other way: The Festival of "The New Group of World Servers" is particularly associated with the Winter Solstice Festival. The soul cells ( " The New Groups" ) are integrating in The Solar Body. It is a Systemic process. The clue is, that we are in the sixth Solar System of seven. Thus the Heart centers of the Schemes are the most important, and the qualities of the Heart. We are all Adepts in Spirit from the last Solar System. Our Solar System is highly evolved and will graduate Humanity of the Chohan degree. We are just beginning on The Way. Best wishes, Sveinn Freyr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 02:09:50 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Thought For Food Message-ID: <33a37ca4.49173916@mail.earthlink.net> Hello All, As we replay the scenes from the past, we experience again the emotions connected to these scenes, losing more energy. We relive the traumas, the dramas, the pain, as well as the pleasures and ecstasies. Shakespeare wrote about this habit of ours in the following sonnet: "When to the sessions of sweet silent thought I summon up remembrance of things past, I sigh the lack of many a thing I sought, And with old woes new wail my dear time's waste: Then can I drown an eye, unused to flow, For precious friends hid in death's dateless night, And weep afresh love's long since cancell'd woe, And moan the expense of many a vanished sight: Then can I grieve at grievances foregone, And heavily from woe to woe tell o'er The sad account of fore-bemoaned moan, Which I new pay as if not paid before. But if the while I think on thee, dear friend, All loses are restored, and sorrows end." We can see clearly that Shakespeare is referring to our habit of imagining things from the past and how that habit affects us. At the end of the sonnet he makes a poetic reference to Inner Consciousness. The "dear friend" is none other than the Self, showing us how we can rescue ourselves by returning to the Eternal Moment through Inner Consciousness. Any thoughts on the matter ? __ {- -} ===========oo0(_)0oo=========== "We are not human beings having a Spiritual Experience -- We are Spiritual Beings having a Human Experience." -- Pierre Teilhard de Chardin Let There Be Light -- Always In All Ways, e.j. }~:~{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "You who have the Light -- What are you Doing with it ?" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 97 16:10:34 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Atman/Anatman Message-ID: <199706022010.QAA16222@leo.vsla.edu> I saw Mark's question, missed Titus's answer, but can reply vaguely that yes, HPB and Purucker both address the argument between Hindus and Buddhists on this score and try to reconcile the two perspectives. HPB talks about the skandhas a lot, but also says that there is a "reincarnating ego." I'd say the two can be reconciled this way: there's no such thing, in Blavatskian Theosophy, as "my Atman" and "your Atman." Yet Atman is considered "part" of the individual's constitution along with buddhi, manas, kama, and the lower vehicles. All the "principles" change in the course of evolution, so there is no fixed identity. Therefore, Buddhists are right, according to HPB, in saying that there is no changeless principle within us that incarnates from one lifetime to another. Because Atman is not "within us" but always beyond and behind all manifestation. Yet there is One Self of the entire universe, as the Hindus teach, and each of us is rooted in that Self. I can look this up at home later if more detail is required. Cheers, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 14:04:45 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Thoughts about the Festivals (Sveinn) Message-ID: <33931942.31C32A5F@earthlink.net> Dear Sveinn, I read your accounts of your experiences with great interest as I am also very sensitive and aware of subtle energy realms.  I have many who I have discussed out of body experiences with and you would have experienced a field of astral perception providing a beautiful representation of the monadic realm.  Of course the idea is that we each are to become aware of these fields while fully conscious in our physical forms...referred to as "continuity of consciousness" in the A. Bailey books. Regarding the festivals, I do not recall (or know esoterically) of a major reference to the winter solstice in the Bailey books (...have read them all, some many times), although there is mention that the Masters do begin preparing for the Spring festivals from the moment of the winter solstice. Regards, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:19:11 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Marrage and Self-Indulgence Message-ID: <199706022128.RAA16151@NetGSI.com> >In "The Mahatma Letters" is the following: "Occult Science does not allow >a shadow of self-indulgence, and is incompatible with the ordinary course >of married life." While this is a direct quote from the TS Bible and has to be right, it also should be taken in context, and with some common sense. As long as a person carrys a physical body around and functions through an ego or personality, they HAVE to have shadows of self-indulgence now and again. And whether or not occult science is compatible with marriage depends on who one marries. Occult Science, believe it or not folks, doesn't really care all that much if a person who studies it is married or not. Being married makes it harder to learn (mostly cause of the required time) but not impossible. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:03:41 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Weird Dreams Message-ID: <199706022128.RAA16143@NetGSI.com> >Don't look at me. If theosophy intrudes into my dreams it usually involves >certain Olcott staff members doing embarrassing things on the roof, which >always causes me to wake up laughing. > >Chuck the Heretic Chuck, I agree. I never met a Master in a dream. But I have learned a lot from my weird dreams. We act in dreams without a persona (in the Jungian sense) and so I believe that dreams reflect a truer picture of ourselves than we see ourselves when awake. Dreams demonstrate the illusory nature of our sense of identity. They suggest to me that the only real purpose of life is to creatively express ourselves, and to have fun. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:08:11 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Re: The Price of Truth Message-ID: <199706022128.RAA16139@NetGSI.com> >To another segment of seekers, a free program with no >mention of money would be a key element. > >Perhaps there isn't a single way that would work for >everyone, everywhere, all the time. Eldon, I agree with you. My main point is that everyone should have to pay something, not necessarily money. Time, effort or labor, for example, will also work. It is unfortunate, but true, that we live in a society where free things are not valued much, and the more one pays in some kind of commodity, the more appreciation one seems to have. In olden days, a good guru would make a chela work very hard for a long time, often for years, before giving out any teachings--which were then highly appreciated. This is, actually, better than money. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:08:38 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Messengers Message-ID: <199706022128.RAA16147@NetGSI.com> >There was a mention that HPB herself knew >that the work of TS was to prepare the coming of a new Messenger from >the the Great White Lodge -- she did mention about it in her writings -- >and if the Messenger did come, then is it possible that the work of the >TS is over. Just a speculation that may shock some traditionalists. Doss, why do you think only "one" messenger is coming? It seems to me that several have already come, that several are here now, and that more will follow. Most prefer the background to the limelight, thus come and go unnoticed. >But let us remember that even great religions had their day and when >their time was up, they were gone. One of my reasons for this line of >thinking is the fact that after Krishnaji started speaking, we never had a >charismatic leader in TS. None is in sight now either. A "charismatic leader" is only one type of Messenger. Personally, I find Grace Knoche to be a bit charismatic (she is, IMHO, very "spiritual" however you want to define that term). Or does every Messenger have to come through Wheaton? >Sometimes one shudders at the potential future in the hands of a >un-charismatic leadership. May be it is time for a last wake up call >and see the urgency of the situation. Actually, I fail to see what your "urgency" is? Without charisma, a leader has little influence anyway. I am not sure, but I think you said it backwards--how about "...in the hands of an unscrupulous yet charismatic leader." And, I am altogether unsure how such a person would ever get to the top of any TS. Just a few thoughts. The main thought I want to leave you with is that sometimes a Messenger or Leader comes, does his or her thing, and leaves, and is never noticed or realized. BTW, this is exactly the way the Lodge prefers it. Messengers only "make waves" when absolutely necessary. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:58:40 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Hinduism vs Buddhism Message-ID: <199706022224.SAA18332@NetGSI.com> >Being composed of elements that partake of both Hindu and Buddhist >thought (among other things), can anyone tell me how theosophy has >resolved the difference between the traditional Hindu view of Atman and >Brahman and the quite succint refutation of these concepts by Buddhism >(for example, in the Buddhist doctrine of anatman)? > >Is there some overarching theosophical perspective that reconciles this >direct philosophical opposition? > >Mark The common denominator is the Doctrine of Monads, which HPB skewed until it fit both the Hindu and Buddhist perspectives. She calls the ego (Jungian sense) the Human Monad, for example, which suggests that it is real and meaninful and permanent (Hindu view) but then in other places suggests that it only lasts one lifetime while the Spiritual Monad lasts through the whole manvantara, and so on. Its altogether a very involved and messy business, but the bottom line is that her Human Monad (which is NOT a monad at all, because it IS divisible) equates to the Buddhist non-ego and her Spiritual Monad equates to non-atman. Mahayana Buddhism (which is where HPB, not Olcott, was coming from) views the ego as relatively real--it has, like all aggragates, a dependent arising. It does not exists independently, but only in a relative sense. Once you work your way through her terminology, she speaks from a true Mahayana framework but her words (e.g., her flagrant use of the word monad) sound very Hindu-ish. The only monad that is truly monadic is what she calls the Divine Monad, and this is outside of time and space, and beyond the seven cosmic planes, and thus outside of maya (Buddhists have two views of maya--most think of it as the four lower planes of manifestation with the Abyss being the dividing line, and the three planes above the Abyss being Nirvana. But others (notably the Dozchen) view all seven planes as being maya, and thus they view Nirvana as being just as mayavic as the lower four planes (which they call Samsara). When you read HPB in the light of the Divine Monad as the only true monad, she is pure Mahayana. When you read HPB in the light of the lower monads (which don't fit the definition of "monad" but she uses the word anyway) she is pure Hinduism. One of the problems here is that HPB was only allowed to give out information on the lower four planes. This is Samsara, and she only talks about the 7 Globes, A through G on these planes. The three higher planes weren't discussed much until G. de Purucker. Hope this helps. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:04:54 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Celebacy Message-ID: <199706022224.SAA18335@NetGSI.com> >As everyone knows, Catholic >priests and nuns have lived under a vow of celibacy for centuries. >Admittedly, some of them don't much care for this situation but I maintain >the church "is on to something" here. Yeah, homosexuality. My uncle was a monastic priest, and also a homosexual. He passed on many years ago, but he once admitted that "most" monastic priests and nuns were gay. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:31:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: research question Message-ID: <970602171447_-363208387@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-01 20:12:59 EDT, Alan wrote: > >Mark Kusek wrote: > > > >> Being composed of elements that partake of both Hindu and Buddhist > >> thought (among other things), can anyone tell me how theosophy has > >> resolved the difference between the traditional Hindu view of Atman and > >> Brahman and the quite succint refutation of these concepts by Buddhism > >> (for example, in the Buddhist doctrine of anatman)? > > > >> Is there some overarching theosophical perspective that reconciles this > >> direct philosophical opposition? > > > >I'd also be interested in what our learned list members have to say on > >this. (Paging scholarly, but down-to-earth Alan). But I have a general > >comment. > > Not scholarly on this one, Titus! I wold comment, however, that from an > outside viewpoint, there could be said to a number of theosophies, not > all of which are in 100% agreement, on the surface at least. My own > specialist area is Kabalah, which is *a* theosophy, but different in > some respects from HPB and other theosophies. And my Kabalah is > different in some respects from that of other Kabalists. Well, as I saw mentioned on the awesome Icelandic TS Web site (thanks, Einar!!!!), theosophy includes the study of comparative religions anyway. So, could you have a go at it from the Kabalistic point of view that you specialize in, Alan? And, with Mark and Titus, I'd too like to hear comments resolving the Atman/Brahman vs. the anatman concepts. Thanks!! Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:30:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: research question Message-ID: In message <970602171447_-363208387@emout18.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >> >I'd also be interested in what our learned list members have to say on >> >this. (Paging scholarly, but down-to-earth Alan). But I have a general >> >comment. >> >> Not scholarly on this one, Titus! I wold comment, however, that from an >> outside viewpoint, there could be said to a number of theosophies, not >> all of which are in 100% agreement, on the surface at least. My own >> specialist area is Kabalah, which is *a* theosophy, but different in >> some respects from HPB and other theosophies. And my Kabalah is >> different in some respects from that of other Kabalists. > >Well, as I saw mentioned on the awesome Icelandic TS Web site (thanks, >Einar!!!!), theosophy includes the study of comparative religions anyway. So, >could you have a go at it from the Kabalistic point of view that you >specialize in, Alan? And, with Mark and Titus, I'd too like to hear comments >resolving the Atman/Brahman vs. the anatman concepts. Thanks!! > >Lynn Well now, how about you provide some theosophical definitions (in plain English) of some theosophical terms (like Atman, or Atma, Buddhi, Manas) *as you see them* and I will offer some comparisons (with commentary) from Kabalist teaching ... ? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:27:06 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Marriage and Occult Science Message-ID: In message <199706022128.RAA16151@NetGSI.com>, Gerald Schueler writes >Occult >Science, believe it or not folks, doesn't really care all that much if >a person who studies it is married or not. Being married makes it >harder to learn (mostly cause of the required time) but not >impossible. Common sense, isn't it?! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 00:28:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Messengers Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970603052817.006efcb0@mail.eden.com> At 05:30 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Gerald Schueler wrote: >>There was a mention that HPB herself knew >>that the work of TS was to prepare the coming of a new Messenger from >>the the Great White Lodge -- she did mention about it in her writings -- >>and if the Messenger did come, then is it possible that the work of the >>TS is over. Just a speculation that may shock some traditionalists. > >Doss, why do you think only "one" messenger is coming? It seems >to me that several have already come, that several are here now, and >that more will follow. Most prefer the background to the limelight, thus >come and go unnoticed. You have a point. When I made the comment, I had in my mind what HPB stated in the last chapter of Key to Theosophy dealing with the Future of TS. I am quoting the entire chapter at the bottom of this msg. As regards the messengers, I feel some of them work in the background and some don't. We have the classic cases of those in the limelight are Buddha and Christ. Also no one can tell whether one or 10 or 100 or 1000 or 10000 messengers have come (some stayed and some gone) since HPB left this world. All we can do is speculate. So no one can be right, because we do not have first hand knowledge. So I leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusions in the matter. ..........doss ========================================================== THE FUTURE OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY ENQUIRER. Tell me, what do you expect for Theosophy in the future? THEOSOPHIST. If you speak of THEOSOPHY, I answer that, as it has existed eternally throughout the endless cycles upon cycles of the Past, so it will ever exist throughout the infinitudes of the Future, because Theosophy is synonymous with EVERLASTING TRUTH. ENQUIRER. Pardon me; I meant to ask you rather about the prospects of the Theosophical Society. THEOSOPHIST. Its future will depend almost entirely upon the degree of selflessness, earnestness, devotion, and last, but not least, on the amount of knowledge and wisdom possessed by those members, on whom it will fall to carry on the work, and to direct the Society after the death of the Founders. ENQUIRER. I quite see the importance of their being selfless and devoted, but I do not quite grasp how their knowledge can be as vital a factor in the question as these other qualities. Surely the literature which already exists, and to which constant additions are still being made, ought to be sufficient? THEOSOPHIST. I do not refer to technical knowledge of the esoteric doctrine, though that is most important; I spoke rather of the great need which our successors in the guidance of the Society will have of unbiassed and clear judgment. Every such attempt as the Theosophical Society has hitherto ended in failure, because, sooner or later, it has degenerated into a sect, set up hard-and-fast dogmas of its own, and so lost by imperceptible degrees that vitality which living truth alone can impart. You must remember that all our members have been bred and born in some creed or religion, that all are more or less of their generation both physically and mentally, and consequently that their judgment is but too likely to be warped and unconsciously biassed by some or all of these influences. If, then, they cannot be freed from such inherent bias, or at least taught to recognise it instantly and so avoid being led away by it, the result can only be that the Society will drift off on to some sandbank of thought or another, and there remain a stranded carcass to moulder and die. ENQUIRER. But if this danger be averted? THEOSOPHIST. Then the Society will live on into and through the twentieth century. It will gradually leaven and permeate the great mass of thinking and intelligent people with its large-minded and noble ideas of Religion, Duty, and Philanthropy. Slowly but surely it will burst asunder the iron fetters of creeds and dogmas, of social and caste prejudices; it will break down racial and national antipathies and barriers, and will open the way to the practical realisation of the Brotherhood of all men. Through its teaching, through the philosophy which it has rendered accessible and intelligible to the modern mind, the West will learn to understand and appreciate the East at its true value. Further, the development of the psychic powers and faculties, the premonitory symptoms of which are already visible in America, will proceed healthily and normally. Mankind will be saved from the terrible dangers, both mental and bodily, which are inevitable when that unfolding takes place, as it threatens to do, in a hot-bed of selfishness and all evil passions. Man's mental and psychic growth will proceed in harmony with his moral improvement, while his material surroundings will reflect the peace and fraternal good-will which will reign in his mind, instead of the discord and strife which is everywhere apparent around us to-day. ENQUIRER. A truly delightful picture! But tell me, do you really expect all this to be accomplished in one short century? THEOSOPHIST. Scarcely. But I must tell you that during the last quarter of every hundred years an attempt is made by those "Masters," of whom I have spoken, to help on the spiritual progress of Humanity in a marked and definite way. Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of spirituality -- or call it mysticism if you prefer -- has taken place. Some one or more persons have appeared in the world as their agents, and a greater or less amount of occult knowledge and teaching has been given out. If you care to do so, you can trace these movements back, century by century, as far as our detailed historical records extend. ENQUIRER. But how does this bear on the future of the Theosophical Society? THEOSOPHIST. If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said, their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which will remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the Theosophical Society actually has achieved in the last fourteen years, without any of these advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the new leader. Consider all this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine when I say that if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years -- tell me, I say, if I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century in comparison with what it is now! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 00:28:19 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Messengers Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970603052819.006f305c@mail.eden.com> At 05:30 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Gerald Schueler wrote: >>But let us remember that even great religions had their day and when >>their time was up, they were gone. One of my reasons for this line of >>thinking is the fact that after Krishnaji started speaking, we never had a >>charismatic leader in TS. None is in sight now either. > >A "charismatic leader" is only one type of Messenger. Personally, >I find Grace Knoche to be a bit charismatic (she is, IMHO, very >"spiritual" however you want to define that term). Or does every >Messenger have to come through Wheaton? > When I made the above comment, I was looking at from the historical perspective. It was during the days of Annie Besant that TS had the highest membership. After her, the membership dropped fairly steeply. In TS, at least in my opinion, I have not seen any leader comparable to her. (Her departure coincided with K becoming known to the world.) I also do I see any one of her stature in the horizon. Hope I am wrong. But if TS does not get a leader of Annie Besant's ability of leadership, TS is likely to continue to be in "maintenance" mode and perhaps with further continuing drop in the membership and closing of lodges and study centers as we have been witnessing. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 00:28:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Messengers Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970603052823.006f7280@mail.eden.com> At 05:30 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Gerald Schueler wrote: >Just a few thoughts. The main thought I want to leave you with >is that sometimes a Messenger or Leader comes, does his or >her thing, and leaves, and is never noticed or realized. BTW, this >is exactly the way the Lodge prefers it. Messengers only "make >waves" when absolutely necessary. > Again the scenario you have presented is possible. But no one can be sure how the Brotherhood do their work. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 00:28:21 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Messengers Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970603052821.006f4a54@mail.eden.com> At 05:30 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Gerald Schueler wrote: > >>Sometimes one shudders at the potential future in the hands of a >>un-charismatic leadership. May be it is time for a last wake up call >>and see the urgency of the situation. > >Actually, I fail to see what your "urgency" is? Without charisma, >a leader has little influence anyway. I am not sure, but I think you >said it backwards--how about "...in the hands of an unscrupulous yet >charismatic leader." And, I am altogether unsure how such a >person would ever get to the top of any TS. When I made the above comment, again what I had in mind is the present condition of TS. I do not see the dynamism that existed till the days of Annie Besant. Again, IMO, if the present state of affairs continues, the possibility of disappearance of TS cannot be ruled out in the next 25-50 years. I hope I am wrong. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 03:39:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy and Spirituality Message-ID: <970603033929_-1597544792@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-02 00:25:18 EDT, Doss wrote: (quoting Krishnaji from Mary Lutyens' book) > "So-called holy men have maintained that you cannot come near God if you > indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with > it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their > tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. Excellent post (as always), Doss! Now, if it were rewritten in view of recent history, we could make the following substitutions: So-called holy men = Heaven's Gate cult members God = the UFO behind Hale-Bopp Eyes (and tongues) = (well, use the word eyeballs and subtract the "eye" from it) Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 97 6:50:59 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Numerous and united Message-ID: <199706031050.GAA08919@leo.vsla.edu> If the necessary condition for the TS playing much of a role with the messengers of the end of this century is that Theosophists be numerous and united... uh oh. The current will have to flow through some other channel(s). I think given the way the Theosophical movement has evolved, it would be preposterous to think that collective evolution would be well served by "sending a messenger" to the Theosophists. But I agree with Jerry, they're here. (Although what and whom they are messengers *of* would doubtless be a source of great debate.) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 07:23:25 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Celibacy and Spirituality Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970603122325.0073c6a4@mail.eden.com> At 03:40 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Wildefire@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-06-02 00:25:18 EDT, Doss wrote: > >(quoting Krishnaji from Mary Lutyens' book) > >> "So-called holy men have maintained that you cannot come near God if you >> indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up >with >> it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their >> tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. > >Excellent post (as always), Doss! Now, if it were rewritten in view of recent >history, we could make the following substitutions: > >So-called holy men = Heaven's Gate cult members > >God = the UFO behind Hale-Bopp > >Eyes (and tongues) = (well, use the word eyeballs and subtract the "eye" from >it) > >Lynn > > Dear Lynn: Wonderful follow-up. If only all of critically think through many of our beliefs, some come with strong tradition, then we can make up our own mind and not to be led like a slave or follow like sheep. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 07:28:14 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Numerous and united Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970603122814.00719fec@mail.eden.com> At 06:51 AM 6/3/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >If the necessary condition for the TS playing much of a role >with the messengers of the end of this century is that >Theosophists be numerous and united... uh oh. The current will >have to flow through some other channel(s). I think given the >way the Theosophical movement has evolved, it would be >preposterous to think that collective evolution would be well >served by "sending a messenger" to the Theosophists. > >But I agree with Jerry, they're here. (Although what and whom >they are messengers *of* would doubtless be a source of great >debate.) > I see your point. One basic question that is of interest to me is: with the world wide network of lodges and centers and membership of TS, is there a better way using this setup to better serve Humanity. And on this issue some top level direction in the form of leadership may help. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 11:11:15 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Hill Country Theosophist Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970603161115.00ad95ac@mail.eden.com> Hi Eldon: One of my friends was inquiring about Hill Country Theosophist. Can you provide information about how one can subscribe to it. You may want to post a response to theos-l directly. Thanks. I am copying this msg to theos-l also. ....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:58:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celebacy Message-ID: <970603135802_1442988983@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-03 01:34:00 EDT, you write: >>As everyone knows, Catholic >>priests and nuns have lived under a vow of celibacy for centuries. >>Admittedly, some of them don't much care for this situation but I maintain >>the church "is on to something" here. > > And let us not forget the choirboys that the priests are onto. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:02:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Marrage and Self-Indulgence Message-ID: <970603140153_-1965537341@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-03 02:42:48 EDT, you write: >>In "The Mahatma Letters" is the following: "Occult Science does not allow >>a shadow of self-indulgence, and is incompatible with the ordinary course >>of married life." > >While this is a direct quote from the TS Bible and has to be right, Actually, it is utter nonsense. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:04:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy and Spirituality Message-ID: <970603140341_911104058@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-03 03:40:52 EDT, you write: >So-called holy men = Heaven's Gate cult members > >God = the UFO behind Hale-Bopp > >Eyes (and tongues) = (well, use the word eyeballs and subtract the "eye" from >it) > >Lynn Amen! Preach it! Celibacy is either a cause of symptom of insanity. I'm not sure which. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:09:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Messengers Message-ID: <970603140922_844050750@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-03 10:55:44 EDT, you write: >Doss, why do you think only "one" messenger is coming? It seems >to me that several have already come, that several are here now, and >that more will follow. Most prefer the background to the limelight, thus >come and go unnoticed. > > Except for Jerry and I who write books and get people mad at us. But what the hell, it comes with being enlightened. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 12:11:54 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Weird Dreams Message-ID: <199706031911.MAA24274@palrel1.hp.com> "Gerald Schueler" wrote: > I never met a Master in a dream. But I have learned a lot from my weird > dreams. We act in dreams without a persona (in the Jungian sense) and so I > believe that dreams reflect a truer picture of ourselves than we see > ourselves when awake. Dreams demonstrate the illusory nature of our sense > of identity. They suggest to me that the only real purpose of life is to > creatively express ourselves, and to have fun. No real disagreement with the gist of your message, Jerry, but I'm not so sure you haven't met a Master in a dream. They don't like to be identified, after all. "We entertain angels unaware ..." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 12:09:08 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Marriage and Self-Indulgence Message-ID: <199706031909.MAA23876@palrel1.hp.com> Somebody quoted: >> In "The Mahatma Letters" is the following: "Occult Science does not allow a >> shadow of self-indulgence, and is incompatible with the *ordinary* course >> of married life." (Emphasis mine) I remember reading in Alice Bailey that some of the Masters were married. One can be married, have children and not be self-indulgent (or at least no more self-indulgent than if he or she is not married). Actually, one of the many things marriage demands and teaches *is* selflessness. The reason most fail is due to not getting the lesson. More evolved persons (that excludes me) reputedly have mastered all the things marriage teaches and therefore it is unnecessary. But non-necessity doesn't imply harmfulness. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 17:07:13 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Hill Country Theosophist Message-ID: <33949591.180F@eden.com> Dear Slusser: Myself and several others would like to know more about HCT. Can you let us know how we can subscribe and any other information that might be helpful. When I receive the info, I plan to post it on theos-l. thanks M K Ramadoss Eldon B. Tucker wrote: > > >One of my friends was inquiring about Hill Country Theosophist. Can you > >provide information about how one can subscribe to it. You may want to post > >a response to theos-l directly. Thanks. I am copying this msg to theos-l also. > > The editor is Dick Slusser, dslusser@indra.com. You might want to ask > him for a short writeup of his magazine which you could repost. (The > magazine is called the HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST.) > > -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 16:10:54 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: About what M.K.Ramadoss posted (TS and its future) Message-ID: <3394A47E.1AEF@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hello I wanted to said something about the large text Doss put the other day. The text is very large, and here in school pepole, in finals, compete too much for so few computers, so i'll try to be brief and point the most important subjects on that text (that i consider by the way very important) a) This person (Geoffrey Farthing) really knew well the subject, and it states brefly all the lifestory of the T.S since Blavatsky's foundation. but i believe something in that is missing. b) Let me quote this because in this quoting (even if was from a very diffrent subject) has the main point of what i want to say: > >A large group of our Society does not accept CWLeadbeater's writings, > >a subset of that group lumps Annie Besant together with CWL, the split > >over Krishnamurti continues . . . and so on. > > By my opinion, these three persons did well, and as well as they could. But > each of them made mistakes. Our mistake is to expect to much of them, and > thereby accept them with a swallow or expel them with a condemn. > That is true. ALL the blabbing in the Geoffrey letter only says that this person is somewhat angry with that. ALL of us made mistakes. even Blavatsky,Bessant,CWL and K. the thing is not being so severe with others the way we cannot be with us. I have to go, they want to use the machine here, later i will fully post more....salutes to all here. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:38:49 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: regarding sex Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603213849.006d16ac@90.0.0.1> I came across the following quote by Kalu Rimpoche in THE GEM ORNAMENT OF MANIFOLD ORAL INSTRUCTIONS that seemed to nicely deal with the subject being discussed (page 98) QUESTION: If your heart is intending to share joy with another person and you are expressing your love for that person, how can anything you would do that would be mutually consenting be considered karmically negative? ANSWER: This is a complex issue. The karmic recommendation concerning sexual activity attempts to provide some kind of stability, so that our sexual activity does not become the main driving force in our life and a source of emotional stimulation and agitation. Therefore, general codes of sexual behavior which are more or less in accord with the general norm in the human realm are recommended, to try to keep the sexual aspect in proportion with the rest of life. I suppose a certain confidence in the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas as intelligent and omniscient teachers is required to accept that there is some validity to what may seem to be a rather curious or unnecessary stricture. What you say is quite true. If there is basic love and sharing between two people, it would seem that very little that is harmful would ever come of that. It still seems reasonable, however, that we would do well not to be sexually near a stupa, or in a temple, or in the presence of our teachers. This seems to show a reasonable respect. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 22:22:52 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Marrage and Self-Indulgence Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603222252.006cf178@90.0.0.1> Jerry: >>In "The Mahatma Letters" is the following: "Occult Science does not allow >>a shadow of self-indulgence, and is incompatible with the ordinary course >>of married life." >While this is a direct quote from the TS Bible and has to be right, >it also should be taken in context, and with some common sense. I agree, but this is true of anything that we study. We take into account the limitations of the author and language at hand. HPB and her Teachers were limited by a lack of a rich vocabulary to draw upon, and were pioneers in introducing certain ideas into western thought. I wouldn't compare the Mahatma Letters to the Bible, since they're not infallible writ. On the other hand, I'd give an expert in a field a careful reading, while not devoting much time to the writings of those without knowledge and training. With source Theosophy, I'd consider there being expert information and advice -- materials coming from a known, genuine source. This doesn't make them infallible, nor written lucidly. And it doesn't, of course, say anything about *where else* similar expert knowledge can be obtained. >As long as a person carries a physical body around and functions >through an ego or personality, they HAVE to have shadows of >self-indulgence now and again. One of the Buddhist vows I remember from Zen retreats was: "The deluding passions are inexhaustible, I vow to extinguish them." Here I'd put emphasis on the word "deluding". It's the overpowering or compulsive or delusionary aspect of the passions that we overcome. The passionate energies don't go away. Instead, I'd say, they become the wind in our sails, the driving power behind the acts of creativity, originality, and expressiveness that we perform in the world. >And whether or not occult science >is compatible with marriage depends on who one marries. Occult >Science, believe it or not folks, doesn't really care all that much if >a person who studies it is married or not. Being married makes it >harder to learn (mostly cause of the required time) but not >impossible. True, it's still possible if someone's married. The partner should be informed of and involved with any practices, though, since he/she would be in the line of fire of any unexpected karma that arises about one. As inner events exteriorize, starting to show up in the outer world, they affect the people about us, and our spouses can be the first to experience this "spontaneous arising". -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 01:23:56 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: HCT Part 1 of 2 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970604062356.00731a5c@mail.eden.com> Hi, here is the info on HCT. It is posted as two msgs due to the length. ..doss Return-Path: dslusser@indra.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 20:36:35 -0600 From: dslusser Subject: Re: High Country Theosophist References: <3.0.1.32.19970603125114.006e134c@imagiware.com> <33949591.180F@eden.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Dear Slusser: > > Myself and several others would like to know more about HCT. Can you let > us know how we can subscribe and any other information that might be > helpful. When I receive the info, I plan to post it on theos-l. > > thanks > > M K Ramadoss > > Eldon B. Tucker wrote: > > > > >One of my friends was inquiring about Hill Country Theosophist. Can you > > >provide information about how one can subscribe to it. You may want to post > > >a response to theos-l directly. Thanks. I am copying this msg to theos-l also. > > > > The editor is Dick Slusser, dslusser@indra.com. You might want to ask > > him for a short writeup of his magazine which you could repost. (The > > magazine is called the HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST.) > > > > -- Eldon THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is an independent Journal and has the following editorial objectives: (1) To serve the greater Theosophical Movement as a forum for the free interchange of ideas and commentary in the pursuit of Truth and to facilitate various projects in furtherance of Theosophical principles. (2) To present articles and essays consistent with source theosophy, otherwise known as the Ancient Wisdom as given by The Masters and H.P. Blavatsky, and other theosophical writers consistent with this tradition. (3) To examine contemporary ethical, religious, metaphysical, scientific and philosophical issues from the viewpoint of the source theosophical teachings. (4) To impartially examine significant events and issues in the history of the theosophical movement which have affected and shaped its present-day realities. Abstracts of Back Issues The High Country Newsletter [Nov. ‘86] An introduction to the writings of the real founders of the theosophical movement — the Masters. An invitation to study The Secret Doctrine, using an intuitive approach. Dick’s proposal to teach a beginners’ course in Theosophy through Learning Unlimited is accepted. [Dec. ‘86] We discuss the Masters and their work and practice inspirational/intuitive problem solving using a card deck made up of quotations from the Masters. [Jan. ‘87] The Unity of Life. Introduces the concept of The One Life and One Consciousness which pervades all manifested being and has its Source in Be-ness — “an omnipresent, eternal, boundless and immutable substance principle.” [Apr. ‘87] Review of Videotape The Lost Years of Jesus, produced by Richard Bock. The program concerns the mystery of the life of Jesus between the age of 12 and 30; also discusses Shroud of Turin and Sword of Longines. [Aug. ‘87] A Farewell from the Other Side - A Personal Experience. Dick Slusser’s brother-in-law says “farewell” in a lucid dream. [Sept. ‘87] Summary: The Origin & Evolution of Man, by Adam Warcup. Part 1 of 3: Glossary of Sanskrit terms and commentary on Lunar Pitris. [Oct. ‘87] Summary: The Origin & Evolution of Man, by Adam Warcup. Part 2 of 3: The Awakening of mind - the Kumaras’ sacrifice. Two letters on violence in Nicaragua. [Oct. ‘87 #2] Summary: The Origin & Evolution of Man, by Adam Warcup. Part 3 of 3: Religion of the Lemurians and Atlanteans and the role of the “Initiator.” [Nov. ‘87] On Channeling. Guidelines for Authenticity from the American Theosophist. [Dec. ‘87] Mahatma Letter #10, on God and Evil. Excerpts from Letter #10 and from the Bhagavadgita. [Jan. ‘88] What is Spirit and Matter and Who was Jesus? Master K.H. in an 1882 Theosophist article (excerpt) and H.P.B. in an 1887 interview with Charles P. Johnson. [Feb. ‘88] The Masters:- Who are They? Quotes from The Mahatma Letters and Annie Besant. [Mar. ‘88] On Channeling. A quote from H.P.B. and an article in Theosophical Network suggest that some channeled material may be authentic. [Apr. ‘88] Inhabitants of the Astral World. Excerpts from The Mahatma Letters. [May ‘88] The Elixir of Life - “Is the Desire to ‘Live’ Selfish?” Steps on the path of purification. [June ‘88] The Mars-Mercury Controversy. Why were The Mahatma Letters published? [July ‘88] On Channeling. Annie Besant and H.P.B. on communications from “the other side” and the various inhabitants of the astral world. [Aug. ‘88] Devachan and Avitchi; about the various Lokas, Lost Souls, and Satan. The full unexpurgated text of the 1900 letter of advice from Master K.H. to Annie Besant. [Sept. ‘88] Therapeutic Touch in The New Age; Colonel Olcott: Healer of the 1880s; Excerpts from Old Diary Leaves and Alice Bailey’s Esoteric Healing; Review of a Theosophical Video. [Oct. ‘88] Ethics: For Wimps Only? Bill Moyers and Michael Josephson consider various ethical problems in contemporary life. [Nov. ‘88] What of Phenomena? Some contemporary Ram Dass tales from Miracle of Love; A.P. Sinnett’s “Cup and saucer incident”; Rationale for the production of “phenomena” in the 1880s and why WORD came to stop it. [Dec. ‘88] On Capital Punishment. An 1895 essay by W.Q. Judge and passages from The Mahatma Letters give the theosophical case against capital punishment. [Jan. ‘89] Native American Religion and The Ancient Wisdom. Correspondences between Theosophy and Amerindian Cherokee tribal traditions as described in the book Voices of Our Ancestors by Dhyani Ywahoo . [Feb. ‘89] The Swastika: Why does Theosophy use it? For many people it is a symbol of Nazi oppression and genocide. How Hitler came to adopt it and it’s historical significance in Theosophy. [Mar. ‘89] The Ancient Wisdom in Fairy Tales. Can there be an occult level of meaning in the Hans Christian Anderson Fairy Tale “The Snow Queen?” The tale is compared with H.P. Blavatsky’s Voice of the Silence. [Apr. ‘89] Reincarnation Potpourri. References in the Old and New Testaments which may allude to reincarnation and explicit references in the Hindu tradition compared. [May ‘89] P.G. Bowen and his Berber Teacher, Part 1. The son of Cmdr. Robert Bowen and one of H.P.B’s students, P.G.B. was introduced to the Ancient Wisdom by an occultist in Africa, a member of the Berber tribe. Bowen describes how he encountered his Teacher. [June ‘89] Insights from studies in At the Feet of the Master. Highlights from Stephan Hoeller’s talks on C.G. Jung and the Eastern Religions and The Magic of the Animal Powers — Shamanism, Divination and Syncronicity. P.G. Bowen’s Berber Teacher Part 2— The Sayings of the Ancient One. [July ‘89] Monads and Group Souls. The idea of a “Group Soul” as a distinct entity in the animal kingdom found in a number of “second generation” Theosophical texts: C.W. Leadbeater, Annie Besant and others the Adyar lineage are compared with teachings of G. de Purucker in the Judge lineage. [Aug. ‘89] A Modern Look at the Theosophical Masters. Are the Mahatmas, H.P.B.’s Teachers, now long deceased physical men, or are They lofty spiritual Beings still guiding the Theosophical movement? Excerpts from writings of H.P.B., W.Q.J., G. de P. and Master K.H. [Sept. ‘89] Is Chelaship possible in the West? Gerald Schueler says that “all one needs for Chelaship is the burning desire in one’s heart — and that the kind of qualifications set forth by Damodar in the 1880s are ‘nonsense’ in today’s world.” What did Damodar and the Masters say about this? [Oct. ‘89] The Mystery of H.P. Blavatsky and her writings. The paranormal methods H.P.B. used in writing Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine are described by H.S. Olcott and Countess Wachtmeister. The mystery of H.P.B. as “the psychological cripple” is discussed in letters from Master K.H. and A.O. Hume; Bibliography of literature by or about H.P. Blavatsky. [Nov. ‘89] Without distinction of Race, Creed, Sex ... Is the T.S. Sexist? Transcript of a workshop by Beverley Noia; Secular Humanism and the crash of Flight 232. Questions of life and death in a dialogue from a local newspaper. (Part 1 of 2) Dec. ‘89] A second Pilgrimage to India. Editor Dick Slusser returns to India with Marty Lyman. Secular Humanism and Flight 232 Part 2. [Jan. ‘90] A second Pilgrimage to India — Part 2: The Sri Aurobindo Ashram and Auroville; Indian Section T.S. headquarters at Varanasi and travel experiences in India. [Feb. ‘90] On hypnotism. A discussion with two U.L.T. Theosophists in Bangalore India; What Master K.H., W.Q. Judge and H.P. Blavatsky say about mesmerism and hypnotism. [Mar. ‘90] From the Secret Doctrine: H.P.B.’s recapitulation of Vol. I; The six fundamental propositions. [Apr. ‘90] Cycles, Manvantaras and Rounds — and a time paradox. Figures for the duration of the Rounds, Manvantaras, Root-Races and sub-Races and an insight into the difference between “time” and “duration.” [May ‘90] The 1980s seen esoterically. Channeled material by David Spangler of Scotland’s Findhorn Community has proven to be prophetic. National dharmas of the Soviet Union, Islam, China and the U.S. “Folksouls” and “national identities.” [June ‘90] The 1980s seen esoterically — part 2. More on the world dharmas of the U.S., U.S.S.R., and China. Emergence of the “global village,” economic forecast for the 80s, and the role of “traditional peoples.” [July ‘90] The Kali Yuga. Concerning the “Kali-Yuga” — an age of spiritual darkness — and what is good about it. [Aug. ‘90] Global Transformation and our Responsibilities. Reflection on challenges facing the T.S. in the coming 21st century. A review of the mandate given the T.S. by the Maha-chohan in the 1880s, also some views expressed by W.Q. Judge. A “Sister-Lodge” proposal. [Sept. ‘90] The Minneapolis Letter. Commentary on the dissention within the American Section of the Adyar T.S. over the dismissal of Bing Escudero as the sole paid lecturer of the section. Video reviews of The Theosophical Movement and its Importance by John Cooper, and The Perennial Wisdom by April Hejka-Ekins. * * * * End High Country Newsletter * * * * * * * *Begin High Country Theosophist * * * * [Oct. ‘90] Karma: an article by Wm. Q. Judge; A reader’s response; Our editorial objectives. [Nov. ‘90] Adepts in America in 1776: commentary by H.P.B. and W.Q.J.; Social Transformation - Local and Global. How can we participate? Upcoming workshop with Tim Boyd. [Dec. ‘90] Vegetarianism and Theosophy. What H.P.B. and W.Q.J. had to say about the vegetarian diet; Proposals to Wheaton headquarters arising from the Tim Boyd workshop. [Jan. ‘91] Vegetarian diet: Personal and Political implications. Frances Moore Lappe’s views of the politics of vegetarianism in her Diet for a Small Planet. News from New Zealand; Rules for being human; Ten Strong Things from the Talmud. [Feb. ‘91] The Persian Gulf War: A theosophist’s reflections; Book review: In Search of the Masters by Paul Johnson; Master K.H. in Germany. [Mar. ‘91] Are the teachings of Theosophy outdated? Editorial critique on an article by John Algeo in the Jan./Feb. ‘91 American Theosophist and response in Emmett Small’s rebuttal in The Eclectic Theosophist. [Apr. ‘91] The Moon: An Enigma.Mark Jaqua’s commentary on an article in The Canadian Theosophist and some further teaching on the subject from G. de Purucker; Book reviews: Blavatsky Collected Writings Cumulative Index and Olcott Library Annotated Book List. Video review: The Mahabharata by Peter Brook. [May ‘91] The Guardian Wall - STAR TREK version. Some interesting parallels with the script of the TV series to the Brotherhood of Adepts; The Hidden Hand - excerpts from Joscelyn Godwyn’s article in the Apr. 1990 Theosophical History, investigates the premise that one or more lodges of the Adept Brotherhood were the impetus behind the various kinds of ‘phenomena’ which sparked the interest in and rise of spiritualism; Book review: Just Another Spiritual Book by Bo Lozoff. [June ‘91] Occult Astronomy: Recent discoveries in Science vindicate statements made 100 years ago by H.P.B. in The Secret Doctrine and by the Adepts in The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett; Trip Report: Editor Dick Slusser and Marty Lyman follow Kokopelli’s trail and visit Theosophists in California. [July ‘91] The Mystery of G. de Purucker: How was it possible, for a man, regardless of how well educated in the West, to command this depth of insight to thus extend the teachings of an Ancient Wisdom, for which H.P.B. herself [Dec.‘95] The Eve of 1996; Atlantean Impressions II; Theosophy: Philosophy/Science/Art. Brotherhood of The Master; Letters Received: David Reigle update, Abhinyano; QWAA Reprint status; Book Review: In Search of Atlantis; Pilgrimage to India Temple and the Pool (Concluded); Pilgrimage to India. [Nov. ‘93] Franz Hartmann: A biographical sketch of an early Theosophist; “The One Life” by Wm. Q. Judge; Pilgrimage to India. [Dec. ‘93] Franz Hartmann’s Psychometric experiment: A clairvoyant German woman envisions an ashram in Tibet; The Christmas tree: Occult symbolism in pre-Christian tradition; Outreach: tribute to a dedicated worker; Pilgrimage to India; Nasrudin’s boat. ----------------------------end of Part 1 of 2 -------------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 01:24:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: HCT Part 2 of 2 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970604062408.00741bd8@mail.eden.com> Part 2 of 2 - HCT [Jan. ‘94] Martian Mysteries, High Country: Back Issues, Science: Cruelty Free Testing, Letters Received: Robert Hutwohl, HCT Upgraded, Resources. [Feb ‘94] The Kalachakra Ritual, Dalai Lama invites Bo Lozoff, Science: Temperature of the Sun’s Corona, Los Angeles Earthquake. [Mar. ‘94] Science: Fractured comet to impact Jupiter, Letters received: Herb Lubitz, Editorial comment: A.P. Sinnett & Mars-Mercury, John Carter, John Greschner, Ammonius Saccas vol. III available Rosemary Voss, a tribute, Pilgrimage to India. [Apr. ‘94] UFOs and Theosophy, Letters received: Mark Jaqua, Subscription Reminder. [May ‘94] Bo Lozoff meets H.H. Dalai Lama, UFOs & Theosophy, Letters Received: John Greschner, Dara Eklund, John Carter, New Book: Theosophy in the 19th Century by M. Gomes, Pilgrimage to India, New Periodical: Lotus, Final Subscription Notice. [Jun. ‘94] The True Theosophist’s Path, Purification, Letters Received: Robert Hütwohl, Pilgrimage to India, Subscribers’ Notice, The Golden Stairs. [Jul ‘94] W.Q. Judge Bio. sketch, In a Borrowed Body, Living in Tune with our beliefs, New Book: The Mahatma Letters in chronological sequence, Notes on ML chronological edition, Other Journals: Sunrise; Antahkarana; Protogonos, HCT Graphics upgraded. [Aug. ‘94] Editor’s note, Transition of Irene Urban, Marty Lyman’s letter to her dying Dad, The Prophet (Excerpt), Theosophical Ontologies, Movie Review The Little Buddha, Danish Court Rejects Adyar claim, Tribute to Liesel Deutsch. [Sept. ‘94] Kiva co-operative, Edelle Corrine, Peg Hilliard, Tihar Jail Ashram, Emmett Small, replies, Letters received: Abhinyano; Olivia Hansen, New Book: The Sermon on the Mount, Pilgrimage to India. [Oct. ‘94] Recap: Theosophical teachings - Shearman vs Small, A.P. Sinnett - Biographical sketch, Dukkha - Suffering, An Inner City Workshop, Pilgrimage to India, Windrock Springs, Errata. [Nov.‘94] Misadventures of Djual Khul, Fractured comet collides with Jupiter, Letters Received: John Cooper; John Drais, Reprint plans, Canadian Theosophist back issues available, Pilgrimage to India, A Miraculous Escape. [Dec. ‘94] Borobudur, Thanksgiving in the High Country, Christmas; a Theosophical view, Plenty Returns to The Farm, Cuba/U.S. Friendship Park, HEY, MAN, I THINK HE’S A YOGURT!, The Middle Way: Work as a Spiritual Path, John Cooper in India, Pilgrimage to India. [Jan. ‘95] Mission/Messenger/Message; Science, a Banner year; Kalachakra Initiation; Gaden Jangtse Monastery; Shenpen Choeling Center; Bodhisattva - Time Off?; Plenty Report; Obituary - Walter Carrithers; Letters - Jeremy Mwaura, The Boulder Crash; Upcoming at Krotona; High Country Abstracts. [Feb. ‘95] David Reigle & Dzyan; Senzar; The mystery Language; Memorial: Dick Lyman; Letters: David Spurlin retires, Alan Donant: New Link Editor, Liesel Deutsch; Editor’s reply to Liesel D.; Winds of Change in the American Theosophist; Travel Plans; California; Pilgrimage to India [Mar. ‘95] Intentional Communities; Mission/Messenger/Message; Update: David Reigle; Tibetan Text, English Translation; Three Turns of the Wheel of the Buddha - Dharma; Letters: Liesel Deutsch; Note to readers; Contributions: Eastern School Library; R. Hutwohl comments on UFOs; Tests of Daily Life; Pilgrimage to India [Apr. ‘95] Theosophy, Buddhism and Vegetarianism; California Trip Report; Book Review; Letters Received; Subscription Notice; Boulder’s Bike Program; Kiva Co-op - New Member; Poem; Pilgrimage to India [May ‘95] The Coming New Race; Editorial Rebuttal; Premature/Phenomenal Growth; Undersea Magma to Produce Eruptions; Light of Daring in the Heart; Discretion; Correspondences, Altruism; Letters Received; QWAA to be Reprinted; Pilgrimage to India [June ‘95] Adepts in America - Revisited; The Colonial Flag; Letters Received; N. Blott, R. Robb, D. Eklund, D. Pratt, J. Wheeler, K. Briggs, D. TenBroeck; QWAA Reprint; Pilgrimage to India; At-One-ment. [July ‘95] Dharma of the USA; The “Unknown” who swayed signers of Declaration of Independence; Outreach Update; About Robert Hütwohl; Questions: rebirth for victims of violent death; Our thoughts, Our earth; New Publication; Shaky times in southern Mexico; Harvest Festival. [Aug. ‘95] Myth of Secret Doctrine Volume III; Responses: Rebirth for victims of violent death; Comment: Our Thoughts, Our Earth; Letters Received; Theosophy in Denver Fall 1995; Publication: Transactions Holistic Science & Human Values, [Sept. ‘95] The Death of the Soul, Myth of Secret Doctrine Volume III (concl), Our thoughts our Earth: Commentary; Human Kindness Foundation report; Whose Shot was that? [Oct. ‘95] Theosophy and Religion; Brookings U.L.T. Hosts Get Together; Letters Received: David Pratt, David Reigle; New Books: W.T. Brown’s Scenes in my Life; Editor’s Note: Pilgrimage to India; Pilgrimage to India. [Nov. ‘95] Words on Daily Life; T.S. and Creeds; Atlantean Impressions; Letters Received: John Oliphant. [Dec.‘95] The Eve of 1996; Atlantean Impressions II; Theosophy: Philosophy/Science/Art. Brotherhood of The Master; Letters Received: David Reigle update, Abhinyano; QWAA Reprint status; Book Review: In Search of Atlantis; Pilgrimage to India [Jan. 96] Mission/Messenger/Message part 2 - The Fall of A.P. Sinnett. Friday Folder #1, #2, #4. Plenty report. Shenpen Choeling. HCT Back Issues [Feb. 96] Sinnett’s 1882 warning, Friday Folder #3, #7, Crosbie Class #2, #3, Readers’ Comment; C. Walker, L. Deutsch, Book of Dzyan Research Report, Pilgrimage to India, Noted; Sunrise Magazine, W.Q. Judge Centenary [Mar. 96] Readjustments in Canadian T.S., The Theosophical Movement, Each Member a Centre, W.Q.J.; The American Spirit, It was “”A Borrowed Body,” Requiem: The Eclectic Theosophist, The Two Sided Ego, W.Q.J. Centennial Celebration [Apr. 96] Secret of Self Knowing, Mesmerism/Hypnotism dialog; Letters Mrs. K. Cassim, D. Eklund, S. Treloar, Adyar Rejects Russian Charter application, Plenty Report, Crosbie class #1, Tolerance vs. Dogmatism [May. 96] The Self - Friend of Self and Enemy, Outreach activity, Letters; J. Greschner, R. Robb, D. Tenbroeck, D. Reigle, Who is Alice Bailey?, The Arcane School [Jun. 96] Alexandria West-Open, H.P.B. in Tibet, Theos-Worldd Online, Paracelsian Order, True Man of Carlyle, Letters; S. Treloar, L. Deutsch, J. Greschner, I. Okorie, R. Vosse, E.W. Network, Moxa United, Update; Russian Outreach, Brookings U.L.T., Paperback S.D. wanted, Pilgrimage to India. [Jul. 96] Brahma, Vishnu, Siva & T.S. Movement, Transition of Kingdoms on Globe D. , Values of the Jonangpa School, Letters; D. Keene, J. Cooper, Journey to Nepal & Tibet. Book review; The Theosophcal Enlightenment, QWAA report, Paperback request filled, A Theosophical Fable. [Aug. 96] A new Martian mystery (Meteorite), Book Review; Message of the Sphinx, Letters; D. Eklund, D. Keene,Y. Gorbunov, J. Greschner, J. Cooper, S. Ginsberg, HCT editorial position, Questions to Hiraf. [Sep. 96] Rosicrucian Path, Rosicrucians: Theosophical References, A Protest, Another Protest, Pilgrimage to India, An explanation to HCT readers [Oct. 96] Autobio. Dr. Franz Hartmann, part 1. To be Able, Wm. Q. Judge - Transl. by R. Hutwohl [Nov, 96] Harvest Festival at the Farm, ONAWAY Trust Funds, autobio. Dr. Franz Hartmann, part 2 of 2. Heavy doings in High Country, Letters; Rick Archer, Pilgrimage to India. [Dec. 96] Mysteries of Anasazi Kivas, Conflict over Kivas, Secrets of the Anasazi, Seeds by D. Eklund, K.P. Johnson’s House of Cards by D. Caldwell, Heavy Doings in High Country, Letters, Rick Archer, Pilgrimage to India [Jan. 96] Mission/Messenger/Message part 2 - The Fall of A.P. Sinnett. Friday Folder #1, #2, #4. Plenty report. Shenpen Choeling. HCT Back Issues [Feb. 96] Sinnett’s 1882 warning, Friday Folder #3, #7, Crosbie Class #2, #3, Readers’ Comment; C. Walker, L. Deutsch, Book of Dzyan Research Report, Pilgrimage to India, Noted; Sunrise Magazine, W.Q. Judge Centenary [Mar. 96] Readjustments in Canadian T.S., The Theosophical Movement, Each Member a Centre, W.Q.J.; The American Spirit, It was “”A Borrowed Body,” Requiem: The Eclectic Theosophist, The Two Sided Ego, W.Q.J. Centennial Celebration [Apr. 96] Secret of Self Knowing, Mesmerism/Hypnotism dialog; Letters Mrs. K. Cassim, D. Eklund, S. Treloar, Adyar Rejects Russian Charter application, Plenty Report, Crosbie class #1, Tolerance vs. Dogmatism [May. 96] The Self - Friend of Self and Enemy, Outreach activity, Letters; J. Greschner, R. Robb, D. Tenbroeck, D. Reigle, Who is Alice Bailey?, The Arcane School [Jun. 96] Alexandria West-Open, H.P.B. in Tibet, Theos-Worldd Online, Paracelsian Order, True Man of Carlyle, Letters; S. Treloar, L. Deutsch, J. Greschner, I. Okorie, R. Vosse, E.W. 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Heavy doings in High Country, Letters; Rick Archer, Pilgrimage to India. [Dec. 96] Mysteries of Anasazi Kivas, Conflict over Kivas, Secrets of the Anasazi, Seeds by D. Eklund, K.P. Johnson’s House of Cards by D. Caldwell, Heavy Doings in High Country, Letters, Rick Archer, Pilgrimage to India Subscriptions The HCT subscription year begins with the July issue and ends with the June issue of the following year. Paid New Subscriptions received during the period July I - May 31 will be sent back issues, beginning with July, as indicated above. If received June 1 - 30, subscription will begin with July. Rates: $9.00/year U.S.A. $11.00 Foreign (Surface) $18.00 Foreign (Via Air) Payment By check, money order or draft must be in U.S. currency (Dollars) payable to Richard Slusser. Checks payable to High Country Theosophist are NOT negotiable and will be returned Free yearly Subscriptions are available on written request if cost is a hardship. Price of Back issues on request Address all communications to: Richard Slusser 140 S. 33rd St, Boulder, CO U.S.A. 80303-3426 Phone (303) 494-5482 E-Mail: dslusser@indra.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 03:41:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: research question Message-ID: <970604034106_-1296457978@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-03 11:04:42 EDT, Alan wrote: (quoting me where I quoted his response to Titus) > >> Not scholarly on this one, Titus! I wold comment, however, that from an > >> outside viewpoint, there could be said to a number of theosophies, not > >> all of which are in 100% agreement, on the surface at least. My own > >> specialist area is Kabalah, which is *a* theosophy, but different in > >> some respects from HPB and other theosophies. And my Kabalah is > >> different in some respects from that of other Kabalists. > > (where I chimed in) > >Well, as I saw mentioned on the awesome Icelandic TS Web site (thanks, > >Einar!!!!), theosophy includes the study of comparative religions anyway. > So, > >could you have a go at it from the Kabalistic point of view that you > >specialize in, Alan? And, with Mark and Titus, I'd too like to hear > comments > >resolving the Atman/Brahman vs. the anatman concepts. Thanks!! > > > >Lynn > (to which he replied) > Well now, how about you provide some theosophical definitions (in plain > English) of some theosophical terms (like Atman, or Atma, Buddhi, Manas) > *as you see them* and I will offer some comparisons (with commentary) > from Kabalist teaching ... ? Alan, Yikes!! I see the huge thing I inadvertantly asked you as the result of my not editing my message properly before sending it. (This is what happens when people are given access to the Internet while under heavy medication.) My apologies!! What I *intended* to ask you was only: what is the Kabalistic view (the form you study) of the nature of the spiritual principle indwelling in the Soul. ;-D However, having created such a mess, I'll withdraw my question until I can get back to you with the plain-English definitions you asked for atman, anatman, buddhi, manas, etc. It may be a while because it'll require digging in a few books, reflecting on what I find, then composing something more coherent than my original question. Again, my apologies. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:08:09 GMT From: dewberry@poboxes.com (Bee Brown) Subject: Re: The Way Ahead Message-ID: <339682b4.52285560@mail> On Fri, 30 May 1997 15:02:47 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > >For example, TSA does have a homepage. Some ordinary individuals had home >pages long before TSA had one. What you now have is a relatively static one >with very few links to anywhere else. Also do we have a global strategy to >utilize Internet for communication?. Officially TSA has a single e-mail >address. Have you seen any e-mail addresses of any of the National Officers? >(At least I have not seen anything officially published.) How many times >have anyone seen any National Officers on this (unofficial) list or any >other list or Usenet newsgroup discussing issues relating to Theosophy even >though it costs nothing to subscribe to this or any other list or use Usenet >groups. Is there a plan to get every National Officer on e-mail? Is there a >plan to get all key staff at Olcott with individual addresses? Is there a >plan to induce and educate all the lodges and study centers to get on >e-mail? Is there a plan to educate all lodges and study centers on the >advantages of Internet so that everyone can start using their creativity and >use this new medium for propagating Theosophy? Is there a plan to collect >e-mail address of our members so that communications can be sent quickly and >at almost no cost? At least I have not seen any. Any and all of these can >lead to instantaneous communications cutting across the formal lines of >communication. We are just beginning to get the NZ theos-l resurrected and the National President is agreeable to providing a weekly discussion topic and other key members who have much knowledge to share have also agreed to participate. So far I have the e-mail addresses of 15 members throughout NZ and HQ is communicating with them when ever we need to get in touch with a Branch President or otherwise exchange info. Once we get going we hope to put this avenue of communication in the Sept issue of the official NZ Theosophy Magazine and thereby interest some of the members-at-large who belong to HQ and not any Branch as they do not live near one. anyway it will be interesting to see what happens. So for what it is worth, NZ is using e-mail at the HQ level and we find it quicker to contact overseas people if they are on e-mail too. I think you are all aware that I now work at the TS HQ as office secretary. Kind regards to you all Bee > > >So it looks like we have a long way to go and hope we have enough time so >that we do not miss the boat. > >YMDMV > >.................doss > > Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. Life is not a problem to be solved; it is a mystery to be lived. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 05:14:29 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Year 2000 new economics Message-ID: <33953FF6.645BC8B0@earthlink.net> (from an e-discussion) .Yes indeed, it appears that the price system (that is, any social system that effects the distribution of goods and services by means of the exchange of debt tokens, and evaluates commodities according to scarcity) may finally be on the way out. Buckminster Fuller may have had an inkling, but the Technical Alliance (the forerunner of the Technocracy organization) had it pegged as early as 1920. Way back then they said you can't keep automating and keep the purchasing power flowing to the people without creating a huge, bogus debt structure. AND FOR WHAT? We have maintained it because 1) most of us have been kept reasonably comfortable by all the goodies made possible by industry ...;  2) we've all been duped into thinking that being in debt is just the way it is, and "working hard" is our lot in life (how many people in the high seats "work hard?") Most of us are in dire need of a cerebral enema; 3) mostly, we're confused and befuddled by conflicting value systems. On the one hand, our social progress is measured in growth in dollars exchanged; yet every single one of us in this ...system - . - is working on the basis of getting the "most for your money". The less you spend, and the more you get, the smarter you are. Dysfunctional, or what???!!! 4) DENIAL! The only thing - the ONLY thing - that is going to break through to the vast majority of the social morons is a cataclysmic crash of their bogus comfortable lives (that are getting more hostile and insecure all the time). And then they won't be looking for rational answers. They'll be coming for them what has. Anarchy will reign, and a military government will be installed (that is, of course, if the military can even operate - their computers will have crashed, too). The use of the term "resource-based economics" is interesting. Technocracy called it energy accounting: that is, setting up production and distribution on the basis of real, physical factors, producing an abundance for use - not acquisition. Jacque Fresco, who has been likened to Fuller (please see his Web site) uses precisely that term to describe his vision of the distribution system of the future. At any rate, Technocracy outlined a design for a resource-based economy in 1933. The organization went public in the depths of the Depression, and most people consider it an anachronism of those times. But its proposals for guaranteed purchasing power (in the form of a non-transferrable "energy card") and the replacement of the price system with energy accounting, form the hub of the design. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:00:22 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Way Ahead Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970604130022.00769c7c@mail.eden.com> At 05:11 AM 6/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, 30 May 1997 15:02:47 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > > > > >> >>For example, TSA does have a homepage. Some ordinary individuals had home >>pages long before TSA had one. What you now have is a relatively static one >>with very few links to anywhere else. Also do we have a global strategy to >>utilize Internet for communication?. Officially TSA has a single e-mail >>address. Have you seen any e-mail addresses of any of the National Officers? >>(At least I have not seen anything officially published.) How many times >>have anyone seen any National Officers on this (unofficial) list or any >>other list or Usenet newsgroup discussing issues relating to Theosophy even >>though it costs nothing to subscribe to this or any other list or use Usenet >>groups. Is there a plan to get every National Officer on e-mail? Is there a >>plan to get all key staff at Olcott with individual addresses? Is there a >>plan to induce and educate all the lodges and study centers to get on >>e-mail? Is there a plan to educate all lodges and study centers on the >>advantages of Internet so that everyone can start using their creativity and >>use this new medium for propagating Theosophy? Is there a plan to collect >>e-mail address of our members so that communications can be sent quickly and >>at almost no cost? At least I have not seen any. Any and all of these can >>lead to instantaneous communications cutting across the formal lines of >>communication. > >We are just beginning to get the NZ theos-l resurrected and the >National President is agreeable to providing a weekly discussion topic >and other key members who have much knowledge to share have also >agreed to participate. So far I have the e-mail addresses of 15 >members throughout NZ and HQ is communicating with them when ever we >need to get in touch with a Branch President or otherwise exchange >info. Once we get going we hope to put this avenue of communication in >the Sept issue of the official NZ Theosophy Magazine and thereby >interest some of the members-at-large who belong to HQ and not any >Branch as they do not live near one. anyway it will be interesting to >see what happens. >So for what it is worth, NZ is using e-mail at the HQ level and we >find it quicker to contact overseas people if they are on e-mail too. >I think you are all aware that I now work at the TS HQ as office >secretary. >Kind regards to you all >Bee >> >> >>So it looks like we have a long way to go and hope we have enough time so >>that we do not miss the boat. >> >>YMDMV >> >>.................doss >> >> > >Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. >Life is not a problem to be solved; >it is a mystery to be lived. > Hi, Bee: It is very nice to hear that NZ TS is leading the way to the rest of the world in the use of Internet/e-mail. I am sure that every section in the world can benefit from your experience and your implementation may become a model for others to follow. Please keep all of us informed of your progress. With regards, ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:09:36 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: regarding sex Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970604130936.00766b28@mail.eden.com> At 12:37 AM 6/4/97 -0400, Eldon B. Tucker wrote: >I came across the following quote by Kalu Rimpoche in >THE GEM ORNAMENT OF MANIFOLD ORAL INSTRUCTIONS that >seemed to nicely deal with the subject being discussed >(page 98) > >QUESTION: If your heart is intending to share joy with >another person and you are expressing your love for that >person, how can anything you would do that would be >mutually consenting be considered karmically negative? > >ANSWER: This is a complex issue. The karmic recommendation >concerning sexual activity attempts to provide some kind >of stability, so that our sexual activity does not become >the main driving force in our life and a source of >emotional stimulation and agitation. Therefore, general >codes of sexual behavior which are more or less in accord >with the general norm in the human realm are recommended, >to try to keep the sexual aspect in proportion with the >rest of life. I suppose a certain confidence in the Buddhas >and Bodhisattvas as intelligent and omniscient teachers is >required to accept that there is some validity to what may >seem to be a rather curious or unnecessary stricture. What >you say is quite true. If there is basic love and sharing >between two people, it would seem that very little that is >harmful would ever come of that. It still seems reasonable, >however, that we would do well not to be sexually near a >stupa, or in a temple, or in the presence of our teachers. >This seems to show a reasonable respect. > >-- Eldon > Thanks for a very informative post. There is a also a very interesting episode in the life of Shri Shankaracharya, who many consider as one of the highest Adepts. There was a debate competition in which he participated. Finally he defeated the final participant and just before he was to be announced as the winner, the wife of the participant challenged him. The wife was also a scholar and elequent debater. He vanquished her and finally when he was about to be declared a winner, the wife asked him some questions about sexual bliss or some other related matter and told him that as a bachelor he could not answer her from first hand information. No to be defeated, he found that just then a king had died and he temporarily occupied the body and spent some days in the king's body and had all the sexual experience with queen and came back and answered all the questions and defeated the woman debater. This simply goes to show that there is a place for sex and family life. The simple question seems to be one of every one to ponder and decide whether the advantages override the risks involved. .....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:34:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Future of TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970604133452.006ee754@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is an excerpt from Ernest Wood's book " Is this Theosophy..?". Ernest Wood had first hand knowledge of TS and was also one of the instructors for Krishnaji. Some will find it interesting. .......doss ======================= I saw much of Krishnamurti during his visit to New York and on subsequent occasions. I tried to grasp how life appeared and what it meant to him. That was difficult, because it did not mean anything at all. It stood for itself and required no interpretation. He said he had reached liberation; he was free, but he could not describe that freedom. Mind could no more grasp life than teeth could bite the air. Life was knowing itself direct in him, not through the veil of mind, with its clumsy categories of past, present and future. I could see clearly what he was driving at in describing so many things as hindrances, but I was not able to grasp the positive and superior life of which he spoke. After all, his position seemed to be that of the yoga school of India, which I knew well. It was simply that the mind (perception and reason) is not the instrument for knowing the positive element of being that is, life itself, but is concerned with the limited department of production and understanding of forms. Its enhancement could not lead to discovery of fundamental truth any more than could development of abnormal muscularity. On the other hand its suppression could not lead to it, any more than material suicide. We ought not, therefore, to picture our evolution into some godly or angelic type of being. and stultify our present power by waiting or working for that. That would not be different from the way in which stupid devotees set aside their own judgment and waited for orders from above. Nor, on the other hand, should we discredit our present capacity by going backwards, as it were, to the peaceful animal state of mind. In short, the secret of the real is to click with the present, to be fully what we are. Consolation, hope, remorse, and any philosophy which softens the incidence of life upon us in the present stands in the way of life's realization of itself. The mind can help only by removing the obstacles, the errors created by itself. To think of life in its fullness is to make only a picture on canvas. Life is life, and cannot be known mentally by comparison with any object. You cannot put God in a box. Several times I discussed with Krishnamurti the function of the Theosophical Society. He said: " You cannot organize truth." I pointed out that the Society was intended to be only a business organization. It existed for the promotion of truth, but did not say what that truth was. " I am afraid you cannot have such a brotherhood," was his reply. " Consider the weakness of human nature. Some creed will get control of the thing, or will be fighting for it and giving trouble all the time." I pointed out that the position is maintained in scientific and learned societies; the Chemical Society does not advocate the use of any particular brand of soap or matches. " People can be impersonal with reference to soap and matches," was the substance of his reply, " but your society proposes to deal with man himself, and you will find that people simply will not face the truth with reference to themselves." " Let us put it to the test of experience," said I. At any rate I am going to try to make the position clear, since there ought to be a society where people may meet to discuss and criticize their various efforts to find the truth. " Go ahead," was his conclusion. " I shall watch the effort with great interest, but I think there is little hope." I had still to learn that there are no truth-seekers, because really to want it would be to have it: it is because we do not really want it that we are what we are, embodiments of wanting something less. =============xxx================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 12:31:02 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: celibacy/spirituality Message-ID: <199706041748.NAA04290@ultra1.dreamscape.com> This re Doss' Krishnamurti quote on the subject. I agree heartily with K's stated position. To force abstinence is brutalzing. However, there seem to be some people who just don't feel like sex, and I don't object to that. I doubt the statement about Leadbeater believing in abstinence. He never married, but many of his pupils did. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:51:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Year 2000 new economics Message-ID: <970604135040_188836593@emout20.mail.aol.com> Economic principles in the year 2000 will be exactly as they are now. The only catastrophe that is likely to occur will be the shattered illusions of those who think that anything is going to change. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:53:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Future of TS Message-ID: <970604135250_813873267@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-04 09:47:41 EDT, you write: >You cannot put >God in a box. Oh yes you can. I have sitting on the desk. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:02:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Theosophical Order of Chaos Message-ID: <970604140246_-1095383558@emout11.mail.aol.com> To the end that Heresy may be promoted and spiritual anarchy reign, I am pleased to announce the formation of the Theosophical Order of Chaos. This organization will be dedicated to livenin up the TS by the simple process of breaking rules and commandments whenever we find them (withing bounds of reason, of course). Our three stated objects are: To deflate stuffed shirts and annoy the pompous and arrogant without regard to the race, creed, sex, status, species, class, caste, age, IQ level, numbers of letters after the name, nation or planet of origin. To encourage the study of the comparative absurdities inherint in religion and philosophy and why sensible people never take either of them seriously. To investigate the unexplained laws of humor and the powers latent in mirth. Everyone in creation is invited to join us. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:51:50 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: High Coutry Theosophist PS Message-ID: <199706041909.PAA28433@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dick Slusser's e-mail address is: dslusser@indra.net lfd From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:50:10 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: High Country Theosophist Message-ID: <199706041908.PAA27367@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Doss, I guess this is the publication you inquired about. You send a $9.- check made out to Richard Slusser, who's the editor to High Country Theosophist 140 So. 33 St. Boulder Colo. 80303 Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 12:17:11 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: latest issues of THEOSOPHY WORLD Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970604121711.006f5e44@imagiware.com> The July issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD has come out. Its table of contents is: > "The Calling of a Chela" by G. de Purucker > "New HPB Articles Online, HPB Movie, Theosophical Text Database" > by Scribe > "Who Was Bill Lawrence" by Dick Slusser > "A Tribute to the Old Man" by Tim Boyd > "How, Why, and the Younger Generation" by Thoa Tran > "Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines?" by Daniel H. Caldwell > "Theosophical Education" by Thoa Tran > "Navajo and Tibetan Sacred Wisdom: A Book Review" by > E.J. Fleming > "Metaphysical Literature in Russian" > "New Theosophical Ebooks" by Sarah Belle Dougherty > "Working for Humanity Through the T.S." by M.K. Ramadoss > "The Theosophical Society and Its Future" by Geoffrey A. Farthing > "Ethics and Confidential Materials" by Eldon Tucker > "Some Thoughts on Karma" by Einar Adalsteinsson > "Web Site for the T.S. in Germany" by Johannes M.U. van Driel > "New National President for the T.S. in Iceland" > "To Our Dear Brothers and Sisters" There were no April or May issues. The March issue contained: > "Winter Solstice 1974" by Boris de Zirkoff > "Telling Good From Evil" by Eldon Tucker > "The First Cloning of an Adult Mammal" by Eldon Tucker > "New Ebooks on TUP Online Site" by Sarah Bell Dougherty > "Today's Trends in Science and How it Affects the Future of > Mankind" by Brenda Tucker > "Our Ability to Tell Right From Wrong" by Eldon Tucker The February issue had: > "Wisdom is to the Pure" by H.T. Edge > "Subjective Reality" by Thoa Tran > "Rising Above the Psychological" by Eldon Tucker > "Putting All Our Pet Theories on the Block" by Michael Rogge > "Subjectivity and Objectivity" by Jerry Schueler > "Technical Terms in Stanza II" by David Reigle > "Senzar: The Mystery of the Mystery Language," Part II > by John Algeo > "Math that is Culturally Independent" by Don DeGracia, Ph.D. > "Historic Note" by Bee Brown > "Engage the Process" by Eldon Tucker And the January issue had: > "Root-Races and Geologic Periods" by William A. Savage > "The Neoplatonic Revival" by A Student > "Language for Theosophy" by Murray Stentiford > "Bliss and Evil" by Eldon Tucker > "New Site from the Theosophical Society (Pasadena)" > by Sarah Belle Dougherty > "Senzar: The Mystery of the Mystery Language", Part I > by John Algeo > "Towards a Theosophy of Art" by Keith Price > "One Can Only Smile" by Eldon Tucker > "HPB: A Woman Generations Ahead of Her Time" > by Judy D. Saltzman, Ph.D. > "Theosophy Northwest" by Sarah Belle Dougherty The theosophical email monthly is about 100,000 bytes in size. A sample copy or free subscription is available by writing: editor@theosophy.com Articles and other items of theosophical interest are discussed in the associated email list, theos-talk@theosophy.com. Participation in this list is optional; it's ok to receive the magazine without being on theos-talk. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:36:01 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: About what MK Ramadoss posted (more on TS and it's future) Message-ID: <3395D1B1.621A@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hi friends I wanted to abound a bit more on the subject on the past post that i put. i will try to be brief (i think) (continuing) c) The accerts in the article of Farthing were: *On the didactic form the first half of the part 1 on the article were posted (on the history of the TS -i consider speccialy the history of the founding by Blavatsky very important-) *On the didactic form of the whole article (the founding, the founders, the errors, the past, the present, the future) *It gives a concrete perspective on the leaders of the TS (how they were, their mistakes,what they do,etc) d) The think i didn't like (could put this as "mistakes" but is not that they were mistakes, but the personal view of the author,and as that we have to respect that) On the Farthing article: *The visceral point of criticism, on the past leaders of TS after Blavatsky (so, they did make mistakes,yes, but who are we to judge them?-but (as i think Liesel would say) we have also the right to tell what we don't like of the things) THINGS I DIDN'T LIKE ON THE ARTICLE: -He minimizes the works done by Bessant and CWL. -Yes, Krishnamurti didn't wanted to be world leader, but that's not problem of Bessant and CWL. is the way Krishnamurti wanted to be. -YES, Bessant and CWL made mistakes (as the co-masonry work done by Bessant, but why not consider the fact that maybe it wasn't directly her fault? why don't consider the fact that maybe she was OBLIGATED TO WORK WITH THEM IN ORDER THAT THE TS WOULD'NT BE THREATENED OR DESTROYED BY TERRIBLE FACTIONS AND GROUPS OF POWER (with wich Bessant hadded to work in order to change things politicly in India)?? -Bessant and CWL made works that maybe are not proper of the TS, but, as every scientific research is , they were contributions of knowledge to the vast and common wisdom known by man 'till now, of Theosophy? and Alice Bailey? (Here talking personal, i really i not sure of the pretended masters, (only KH, and that because of historical evidences) but, that work, even if is a suspect fraud, is a work of value that has to be STUDIED AND COMPROBED to tell if is a fraud or not. Is like if i, student of Biology, future scientist, belonged to the Mexican asociation of Biology, and a person in that asociation telled that "because Antropology latest great leaders (ex. Leakey) work is not compatible to the Darwinian theory, and they made terrible mistakes, they are not worthy, and we have to expell their work (ex. Leakey) of the association, of tagg' their work as NOT Antropology correct or something like that WHAT WOULD YOU THINK OF THAT? THAT THE PERSON IS A WACKO, DON'T? Finnaly: *Maybe Bessant is wrong in some theories, maybe Leadbeater didn't have clairvoyance,maybe he believe that he had, or maybe he hadded right, and make some errors in his observations (the scientists make errors in observation too) but we must not forget this: They made contributions to Theosophy (believing that Theosophy, is ,as Blavatsky said, the vast knowledge that has been,is and it would be) important. They contributed to the Theosophical Society (if their followers are not doing a good job, is not their problem) and they did the best work of all: they PRACTICE THEIR KNOWLEDGE (Practical theosophy) and that's the important fact of that. I properly respect what Farthing wrote, he was right , we cannot be eye-closened to the errors of the leaders of theosophical society, and those errors have to be corrected. but i, even that i do not belong to any organization belonging to the TS, and that i haven't read enough (my bibliography of books read is too poor in comparison, for example, to Doc's and Doss) i wanted to post my opinion, is not a dogma, is my humble (maybe not too humble) opinion on the subject. Sorry if i bother some square minds somewhere. Estrella P.S. a grand salute to all that post here and to the new pepole that post now. P.S.S. Mr. Sweinn, of Iceland, there were some important remarks in your past long long post that later, i will write to you, if you won't mind. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 09:02:12 +1000 From: ross martin Subject: Curiosity Message-ID: <199706042258.IAA05362@4kz.com.au> Hi, About a week ago, as my e-mail was quiet, out of curiosity I subscribed to this list. For the last year I have been on the Krishnamurti list and for many years have been interested in what he had to say re the process of thought. Until joining that list, I hardly ever discussed so-called spiritual matters, and in hindsight I probably resembled a hermit spiritually. Though I knew of K's previous involvement with the Theosophical society, what he had to say and what I felt, seemed more important than his history. Originally I attempted to mould my life according to what he said, but maybe because of the meaningless of such efforts, the demands to be like him faded. Other than contributing e-mail, in daily life I have no interest in discussing K etc, unless the other shows interest, which normally is not the case. My involvement with the K-list began like my joining this list, from curiosity while surfing the net. I must admit a certain surprise that K is referred to frequently in posts on your list, and I have probably heard almost as much about his history in one week as I read before joining these lists. Recently Tom replied, <<<< >Hello > >Here is an excerpt from a recent book by Mary Lutyens on >Krishnamurti, where she discusses the issue of Celibacy. I think it is a >very interesting point of view. > >..........doss >===================================== >in the act of sex there is a forgetting of oneself, one's problems and >one's fears. In that act there is no self at all." Krishnamurti said the darndest things. If sex is a forgetting of self, why are people so selfish about it? He might as well have said that in taking crack cocaine, there is a forgetting of self, since the pleasure of the drug makes one lose sight of self.>>>>>> That statement always seemed strange as the pursuit of sex always appeared to be self-motivated. Maybe, he is referring to that fleeting moment of climax, before recollections begin. What is even more strange to me, is that though that is seen as "the dardest thing", a lengthy post by Sveinn, relating to the coming of the Exalted one, appears to be accepted by others, with hardly any comment. Am I to assume that others on the list have similar beliefs. <<<< Jim wrote: >Some theosophists are so strict on this that they do not accept anything after >HPB's death; Jim, - tell them to wake up. The Arhats will be with us in the next century, and then they will give us more teaching than ever before. And that will in time lead to this: "Now in those days, brethren, there shall arise in the world an Exalted One by name Metteyya ( the Kindly One ), an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One, endowed with wisdom and righteousness, a Happy One, a World-knower, the peerless Charioteer of men to be tamed, a Teacher of the devas and mankind, an Exalted One, a Buddha like myself. He of his own abnormal powers shall realize and make known the world, and the worlds of the devas, with their Maras, their Brahmas, the host of recluses and brahmins, of devas and mankind alike, even as I do now. He shall proclaim the Norm, lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle, and lovely in the end thereof. He shall make known the wholly perfect life of righteousness in all its purity, both in the spirit and in the letter of it, even as I do now. He shall lead an Order of Brethren numbering many thousands, even as I do now lead an Order of Brethren numbering many hundreds." D.N. iii. 76 -------------SNIP--------------------- >>>>>>>>>> Regards, Ross. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 16:15:40 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: sex Message-ID: <3396052B.4900@withoutwalls.com> > we would do well not to be sexually near a > stupa, or in a temple, or in the presence of our teachers. > This seems to show a reasonable respect. What about those temples covered in sexually explicit sculptures? Maybe near the gift shop? ;-) Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:20:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: research question Message-ID: In message <970604034106_-1296457978@emout05.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >Alan, >Yikes!! I see the huge thing I inadvertantly asked you as the result of my >not editing my message properly before sending it. (This is what happens when >people are given access to the Internet while under heavy medication.) My >apologies!! What I *intended* to ask you was only: what is the Kabalistic >view (the form you study) of the nature of the spiritual principle indwelling >in the Soul. ;-D In Kabalah this is called ~Yechidah~ - the spiritual or divine spark within each living identity (regardless of species). It does not indwell the Soul, being beyond soul. "Higher" if you like. The Soul is roughly delineated by [Heb.] ~Ruach~ but is sometimes equated with a spiritual principle (as distinct from a spiritual essence). ~Ruach~ approximates to ~Pneuma~ in Greek, and both words are often translated as "spirit" or "breath" or "wind." (cf. NT: "The wind/breath/spirit [of God] blows where it will"). There is also what is called the "Animal Soul" or bodily intelligence, called ~Nephesh~ and can be roughly equated with the intelligence of the etheric/astral entity which informs the everyday activities which accompany our physical and [lower] psychic energies. For the complete works follow the Kabbalah link on the website below, where all is revealed for free! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 16:40:30 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: sex Message-ID: <33960AFA.786D@withoutwalls.com> > Not to be defeated, he found that just then a king had died. > He temporarily occupied the body and spent some days in the > king's body and had all the sexual experiences with the queen and came ... Eh hem, it's good to be king. (And apparently she didn't mind making it with his dead royal, er ... Highness.) :-) -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:40:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome to Theosophy International Message-ID: Theosopy International welcomes Robert Ledwidge! ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Can I please regoster to join Theosophy International Robert Ledwidge mediares@ozemail.com.au Web page: www.ozemail.com.au/~pleroma Interests: Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Alchemy, Theosophy etc *************************************************** The Independent Review PO Box 492, Armidale NSW 2350 Australia Phone:067 711 724/ Fax: 067 711 522 Email: mediares@ozemail.com.au *************************************************** Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:52:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theosophical Order of Chaos Message-ID: <$qFJBBA5GflzEwpG@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970604140246_-1095383558@emout11.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >To the end that Heresy may be promoted and spiritual anarchy reign, I am >pleased to announce the formation of the Theosophical Order of Chaos. >Everyone in creation is invited to join us. > >Chuck the Heretic We accept. Everyone in creation [signed] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:25:36 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Curiosity Message-ID: In message <199706042258.IAA05362@4kz.com.au>, ross martin writes >a lengthy post by Sveinn, relating to the coming of >the Exalted one, appears to be accepted by others, with hardly any comment. >Am I to assume that others on the list have similar beliefs. Not necessarily - I don't for one! Welcome to theos-l. Alan Bain --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:24:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theosophical Order of Chaos Message-ID: <970604202349_-1931806773@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-04 19:57:18 EDT, you write: >Drpsionic@aol.com writes >>To the end that Heresy may be promoted and spiritual anarchy reign, I am >>pleased to announce the formation of the Theosophical Order of Chaos. >>Everyone in creation is invited to join us. >> >>Chuck the Heretic > >We accept. > >Everyone in creation [signed] > > > Wonderful! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 19:37:59 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: sex Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970605003759.0074cf6c@mail.eden.com> At 07:34 PM 6/4/97 -0400, Mark Kusek wrote: >> Not to be defeated, he found that just then a king had died. >> He temporarily occupied the body and spent some days in the >> king's body and had all the sexual experiences with the queen and came ... > >Eh hem, it's good to be king. > >(And apparently she didn't mind making it with his dead royal, er ... >Highness.) > The time between the death of the king and his resusitation with a new person inside him must have taken place in such a short time, the queen did not realize who was occupying the body. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:25:21 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Militias Message-ID: I apologize for not taking part in the discussions lately, but something very disturbing has been brought to my attention. I thought perhaps you would all like to hear about it. It is one of the many horrors that people face today, however, I'm not so sure that many people are aware of the horror. I've just recently learned that a militia has formed just a few miles away from the town I live in. I guess I shouldn't say it "has formed" because I understand that it has been here for a while. This militia does not help the National Guard when needed. It doesn't fight for the people, (however much it might say otherwise). On the contrary, it sells drugs to buy guns. White supremecy prevails in their social ideals. If you don't believe in their cause, they'll threaten you, or assault you physically (to the point of hospitalization, as my friend was recently), or just kill you. They are what we call a "counter-patriot" militia. Below is a letter from another friend of mine who has also had the unfortunate experience of getting on the militia's "bad-side". "Is militant oppression alive and well in America? I live in mortal terror every minute of every day, knowing that my and other's dream of freedom can be taken away by an oppressive militia. Go out and ask your neighbor, "Hi, have you heard of a militia around here?" They will look at you strangely and say, "There's no militia here." Almost all of them will be telling you the truth, but there is a small percentage who know and will lie to you, and an even smaller percentage who know and won't. There is no militia here? Let's see ...big guns, small guns, automatic, semi-automatic, rockets, night vision devices, explosives, camoflauge ..it's all here. Don't get me wrong, I believe in the second amendment to protect ourselves from violence. Most of us still do a pretty good job with it, but some of us would like nothing more than to live our lives in peace, go to work and dream of our pursuit of happiness. Instead it goes more like this. Sleeping in bed with your loved ones when noises outside wake you up. Big motors and loud voices near your house, a banging on your door, yelling outside. You stumble to the door in fear and confusion, swing the door open and step out to find a band of camouflage-clad people moving like shadows in the faint light of the porch or the moon. Gas fumes permeate the air and you are struck a solid blow which sends you reeling. Another knocks you unconscious or nearly so. As the blackness comes on you wonder where your family is and if they got away while you don't even know if you will wake back up ...ever! Those who do, and the families of those who don't, wonder, "Why?" Where were our rights then? There was no way they could have stood against them, for it you immobilize one, two more stand before you, ready to do the same thing for no other reason than being different. What is it that can control as large a number of people as we see today, ready and willing to protect the Constitution of the United States. Not the one which our forefathers died for, but the one they made in their own interpretation of it ...the one without the Blacks, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, homosexuals, "freaks" as they would call them, or their sympathisers. How blind I was to the realities of that life, until I had to witness some people who lived with the problems and the fears of being different from the day they were born to the day they would die ...maybe the next minute ..no? Well, maybe the next. Militant oppression. It is the most terrifying hopelessness I have ever known. You go to the police and hear, "Well, we're sorry but we don't know of any militia around here, especially oppressive militia," or "I'm sorry, but that is a matter for the FBI." You go to the FBI and hear, "There is no militia in this state," except for the few, where the oppression has become public....Oklahoma, Montana, Texas. The rest have to live in the terror of becoming the next incident that will awaken the people of the state. Unfortunately, for those in terror, it is usually stopped by a direct threat, or a bullet, or a fire. A message from CAMO Citizens Against Militant Oppression (June 4, 1997)" CAMO is a result of the lack of help which my friends and I have received from the law-enforcement/government agencies which were contacted about the problem. We are hoping that perhaps the people will listen if the government won't. Hopefully, the government WILL listen if enough people speak out against it. Please forgive me for my sudden disappearance from the list (I'll still be here to try to read some of the posts, but I doubt I'll have time to respond), I have the feeling I'm going to be very busy for a while. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 22:26:32 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Future of TS Message-ID: <339623D8.1431@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Hi > > Here is an excerpt from Ernest Wood's book " Is this Theosophy..?". > Ernest Wood had first hand knowledge of TS and was also one of the > instructors for Krishnaji. Some will find it interesting. Michael Gomes (who STILL has yet to give me the source of his Krishnamurti monetary information) tells me that we have a copy of "Is this Theosophy..?" in the reference section of the NYTS library (meaning that it's not available for loan, but anybody who comes here can read it here). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 22:44:50 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Future of TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970605034450.006e3d64@mail.eden.com> At 10:31 PM 6/4/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> Here is an excerpt from Ernest Wood's book " Is this Theosophy..?". >> Ernest Wood had first hand knowledge of TS and was also one of the >> instructors for Krishnaji. Some will find it interesting. > > Michael Gomes (who STILL has yet to give me the source of his >Krishnamurti monetary information) tells me that we have a copy of "Is >this Theosophy..?" in the reference section of the NYTS library (meaning >that it's not available for loan, but anybody who comes here can read it >here). > > Bart Lidofsky > Thanks for the information. Anyone living in NY can read the book at NYTS. Some time ago, Jerry Eakins offered to make a photocopy of the book for a very nominal cost and some of us took him on his offer and are happy that we have a copy to read. Just thought I should mention this. ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:58:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Curiosity Message-ID: <970605025814_-1629640638@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-05 01:03:11 EDT, you write: >>a lengthy post by Sveinn, relating to the coming of >>the Exalted one, appears to be accepted by others, with hardly any comment. >>Am I to assume that others on the list have similar beliefs. > > The only Exalted One I know of is me. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:36:59 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Angels and Higher Selves Message-ID: <199706051642.MAA08485@NetGSI.com> >No real disagreement with the gist of your message, Jerry, but I'm not so sure >you haven't met a Master in a dream. They don't like to be identified, after >all. > >"We entertain angels unaware ..." Titus, the only Master that I have ever met in a dream is my own Higher Self. According to Jungian psychology, dreams are the Self's way of communicating to the ego, so most of our dreams are messages from our Higher Self. I fully agree with your quote above. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:33:26 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Celibacy Message-ID: <199706051641.MAA08482@NetGSI.com> >Celibacy is either a cause of symptom of insanity. I'm not sure which. > >Chuck the Heretic This is pretty much what modern psychology teaches. Celibacy is usually the result of an obsessive feeling of guilt and unworthyness. I can only condone it when a person really and honestly no longer feels any sexual urges. Then it is natural, and not forced. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:30:26 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Occultism vs Sex Message-ID: <199706051641.MAA08480@NetGSI.com> >>While this is a direct quote from the TS Bible and has to be right, > >Actually, it is utter nonsense. > >Chuck the Heretic Chuck, I think you are correct, but I was trying to be kind. Having no self-indulgence is kind of a goal, like self-actualization, that can be ever striven after, but never fully attained. For every guru or Adept who teaches against marriage, you can also find one who says it doesn't matter, so this too is subjective and depends on the individual. What I really object to is the Masters use of the word "incompatible" which I think is very misleading. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:45:04 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Self-Indulgence Message-ID: <199706051658.MAA09093@NetGSI.com> >>As long as a person carries a physical body around and functions >>through an ego or personality, they HAVE to have shadows of >>self-indulgence now and again. > >One of the Buddhist vows I remember from Zen retreats was: "The >deluding passions are inexhaustible, I vow to extinguish them." >Here I'd put emphasis on the word "deluding". It's the overpowering >or compulsive or delusionary aspect of the passions that we overcome. >The passionate energies don't go away. Instead, I'd say, they become >the wind in our sails, the driving power behind the acts of >creativity, originality, and expressiveness that we perform in >the world. Eldon, I certainly don't disagree. I was arguing with the idea of self-indulgence. The ML quote implies that self-indulgence is ALWAYS wrong. My point is that just to sit down and rest, have a cup of tea, breathe fresh air, and so on are all examples of self-indulgence and are perfectly natural, are human, and are OK. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:57:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Curiosity Message-ID: <970605135715_454410585@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-04 19:05:34 EDT, Ross wrote: > > What is even more strange to me, is that though that is seen > as "the dardest thing", a lengthy post by Sveinn, relating to the coming of > the Exalted one, appears to be accepted by others, with hardly any comment. > Am I to assume that others on the list have similar beliefs. Well, I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm not about to go toe-to-toe with someone who's apparently wrestled with the Dweller on the Threshold and won. ;-D Speaking more seriously, though, I'm still digesting Sveinn's mind-boggling post, which I've reread a few times now. (Despite the fact that I receive about 100 email messages a day, *that* one I saved! ;-D) I found his discussion of the Triangles quite inspiring, including the Triangles group meetings. To directly address your remarks, I'm one of those here who does feel that more information was revealed after HPB's death, particularly in the Bailey books. And, if the revelation did not cease with HPB, then appearances of the Exalted Ones in the future can't be reasonably excluded, IMHO. However, I don't think that everyone (or maybe even half of the folks) on the list necessarily agree with me on that and, for me, that's OK. I get a lot out of the discussions that *do* take place here and continue to look for a list (if any) devoted to the discussion of the content of the Bailey books to subscribe to in addition to this one. As for the appearances of the Exalted Ones (for those of us who believe that they are coming), we have much to do outwardly and esoterically to pave the way for them, IMHO, and the effectiveness of our work in that regard depends on the ongoing revelation by the Soul to the lower self. YMMV as this is just MHO. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 13:28:09 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Future of TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970605182809.00703b94@mail.eden.com> At 10:31 PM 6/4/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> Here is an excerpt from Ernest Wood's book " Is this Theosophy..?". >> Ernest Wood had first hand knowledge of TS and was also one of the >> instructors for Krishnaji. Some will find it interesting. > > Michael Gomes (who STILL has yet to give me the source of his >Krishnamurti monetary information) tells me that we have a copy of "Is Thanks for remembering the request on Krishnamurti monetary info. I am still interested and am looking forward to what he finds, since as an experienced scholar he may be able to find information that none of us have seen or heard before. So let us keep tuned in. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 16:45:32 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Silence not assent Message-ID: <199706052045.QAA08621@leo.vsla.edu> As a general rule, I don't think it's ever safe to assume that because a Theosophist doesn't express disagreement, s/he must therefore agree with a statement. There have been plenty of things said here that I didn't agree with, but who cares? It's been a good spiritual discipline for me to be in a Search for God group where sometimes people express the most bizarre (to me) beliefs about all manner of topics. Not often does it feel right to point out that I don't share said beliefs; if people want my opinion they will usually ask. Most of the things people say here about Masters and world teachers etc. are in the same category. It wouldn't benefit me or them to comment, though. Besides, I've commented enough on the subject here for one lifetime, at least. Only when it seems beneficial to the group or the individual at hand do I think it's worthwhile to disagree. If the only point is for me to vent my opinions... probably best to do so later, with someone who shares the same POV. That said, I somehow missed the post by Svein that raised the question whether we all agreed. Can anyone point me to the right day to find it in the archives? KPJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 15:00:57 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Silence not assent Message-ID: <33971AF3.7E363721@earthlink.net> <> Amen...yes "silence" is the way in many cases... Peace, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:58:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: sex Message-ID: <970605185846_-1931688789@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-05 09:56:09 EDT, you write: > >(And apparently she didn't mind making it with his dead royal, er ... > >Highness.) > > > > The time between the death of the king and his resusitation with a new > person inside him must have taken place in such a short time, the queen did > not realize who was occupying the body. > > .......doss > Nor did she know whether he was coming or going. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 19:25:45 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: 1975 messenger Message-ID: <199706052325.TAA20912@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Rich, Fair enough. But if the next 2.5 years pass and there's no one you can accept as possibly being that last-quarter messenger, won't you have to conclude that HPB's prediction was incorrect? Seems to me that if the choice is between somebody who showed up between 1975 and 2000 and somebody who appeared before 1975, the later claimant would "win." But at the rate things are going, it looks like there won't be anyone who fits. That leaves us with the options: 1. HPB was right about the messenger but wrong about the date 2. She was wrong about the whole business 3. There was a messenger, but not to the Theosophists or at all closely related to HPB's teachings and some others. Option 1 leaves Krishnamurti as a possibility. He's the only one who *karmically* strikes me as delivering a message to the Theosophists-- but one, alas, that they don't *get* IMO, not even his chief cheerleader in Adyar. Of course as you know, the question of whom the message is *from* is the first unresolved issue in my view. What is the lodge, anyway? If the question is "Are there humans who represent a higher state of development, and who convey a healing and enlightening influence to the rest of us?" -- if that's what it takes to be a "messenger of the Lodge"-- then my answer would be an emphatic yes. There are plenty. But if the question is, "Is there a hierarchical organization as depicted in the Mahatma letters, based in Shigatse, which `sent out' St.-Germain and HPB on defined missions at hundred year intervals; and is there now or will there be before 2000 another messenger sent out by these same people?"-- you know my answer. But if you find yourself in a position to say "I told you so" that will be just fine. I'd like to see some more discussion of this messenger business before the year 2000, but my prediction is that Theosophists will quietly evade it as they have been evading other tough questions for a long time. Meanwhile, I'm busy watching the A.R.E. to see how 1998 gets interpreted as it is happening. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:20:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >Please forgive me for my sudden disappearance from the list (I'll still be >here to try to read some of the posts, but I doubt I'll have time to >respond), I have the feeling I'm going to be very busy for a while. > >--- >Jaqi. GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE! FAST! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:13:46 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Curiosity Message-ID: In message <970605025814_-1629640638@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >The only Exalted One I know of is me. > >Chuck the Heretic Ahem .... Alan the Apostate --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 16:48:56 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Re: 1975 messenger Message-ID: <33973443.B2D2C65E@earthlink.net> <<3. There was a messenger, but not to the Theosophists or at all closely related to HPB's teachings>>      1.  There is a messenger today, actual writings of "Secret Doctrine" quality will begin early in the next century.      2.  Messengers are rarely (if ever) recognized by the residual organizations of previous messengers (this is the case now). <>      Hmmm are there specific Cayce predictions as to this year or cycle? Shanti, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- ***  A.Priori  /  1441C Bellevue Way NE  /  Bellevue, WA  98004  USA ***  aprioripa@aol.com  /  http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html ***  (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:16:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theosophical Order of Chaos Message-ID: In message <970604202349_-1931806773@emout03.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-06-04 19:57:18 EDT, you write: > >>Drpsionic@aol.com writes >>>To the end that Heresy may be promoted and spiritual anarchy reign, I am >>>pleased to announce the formation of the Theosophical Order of Chaos. >>>Everyone in creation is invited to join us. >>> >>>Chuck the Heretic >> >>We accept. >> >>Everyone in creation [signed] >> >> >> > >Wonderful! > >Chuck the Heretic This could be a forgery ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 97 20:06:08 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Rich's post Message-ID: <199706060006.UAA23866@leo.vsla.edu> Oops! I copied my reply to Rich to this list, then asked him for permission to forward his post (which appeared on theos-talk) to theos-l; THEN accidentally deleted it before he answered. For those in the dark about my last post, Rich had responded to Doss's suggestion that Krishnamurti was the "20th century messenger" foretold by HPB. Rich wrote that HPB had elsewhere written that no such person could appear before 1975, which ruled out K. That's the context, sorry to confuse. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:13:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy Message-ID: <970605201314_372884499@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-05 15:37:02 EDT, you write: >I can only condone it when a person really and honestly no longer >feels any sexual urges. I don't know, Jerry. I think at that point the person really is sick. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 17:19:39 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <33973B78.2EE0@earthlink.net> There are many militias of all types...originally "militia" meant the people being prepared (armed if necessary) for self-defense (this is how it is used in the constitution's second amendment)...and as known...an individuals's right to be secure in basic rights is absolute. The solution is simply the restoration of basic freedoms...( see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ). Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:37:44 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: money Message-ID: <199706060055.UAA10418@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear folks, I had occasion to e-mail back & forth with John Algeo. I thought his idea of what should and should not get paid for in the course of teaching Theosophy makes sense. I also thought some of you'd be interested in knowing what he thinks on the subject, so I'm sending it on. Liesel >>of course we do not (and in general no one should) take personal payment for doing Theosophical work such as lecturing. But the Society, Lodges, etc. have >>bills to pay for quarters, etc. It is not realistic not to ask those >>who attend meetings to help with the cost of putting them on. Moreover, >>helping with the costs is a form of service and of karma-yoga! >> >>All best, John. >> >> > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:57:32 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: about what Doss posted Message-ID: <199706060115.VAA23993@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Estrella, I agree with you about Besant and Leadbeater. There are some on this list who inist on knocking these 2, and without letup. I've had long debates about this in the past, and I'm very tired of seeing destructive garbage on a Theosophical mailing list. All I want to say now is that if they were so terrible, then how come somebody wrote a few days ago that the TS had the largest membership ever while Besant was President. Also why is it that Adyar, which is the branch which studies Besant and Leadbeater, among others, is the one with the largest membership now? Must have done something right? Calling Alice Bailey a fraud is just as mean. There a people who find their spiritual nourishment in her writings. Then why knock her? I want to say once more that to my way of thinking there are so few Theosophists, that we would do much better to find the similarities all our sections can agree on, and dwell on those, rather than keep on harping on our destructive differences. If we're going to form a nucleus of humanity, let's put a little tolerance into the pie, and show some respect for each other's beliefs. Wouldn't that be nice! Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 20:09:03 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: militia Message-ID: <199706060127.VAA01591@ultra1.dreamscape.com> dear jaqi, what can we do to help you? liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:57:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Occultism vs Sex Message-ID: <970605235448_-1597246245@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-05 20:39:11 EDT, you write: >Chuck, I think you are correct, but I was trying to be kind. Having >no self-indulgence is kind of a goal, like self-actualization, that >can be ever striven after, but never fully attained. For every guru >or Adept who teaches against marriage, you can also find one >who says it doesn't matter, so this too is subjective and >depends on the individual. What I really object to is the Masters >use of the word "incompatible" which I think is very misleading. > > Jerry, One wonders what the Masters were drinking when they came up with that one, or was it written right after KH had an argument with his fourth wife? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 01:51:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Curiosity Message-ID: <970606015112_420912935@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-06 01:32:16 EDT, you write: >>The only Exalted One I know of is me. >> >>Chuck the Heretic > >Ahem .... > >Alan the Apostate >--------- Ok, you can be Exalted too. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 06:35:25 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: sex Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970606113525.00def624@mail.eden.com> At 06:59 PM 6/5/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-06-05 09:56:09 EDT, you write: > >> >(And apparently she didn't mind making it with his dead royal, er ... >> >Highness.) >> > >> >> The time between the death of the king and his resusitation with a new >> person inside him must have taken place in such a short time, the queen >did >> not realize who was occupying the body. >> >> .......doss >> >Nor did she know whether he was coming or going. ;-D > >Lynn > Yes. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 06:52:54 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: HCT Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970606115254.00df8d78@mail.eden.com> At 05:52 PM 6/5/97 -0600, dslusser wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> Hi >> Thanks for the fast response. >> Except for the first msg, rest of the messages seem to have some encoding >> problem. They are gibberish. >> I am sending one of the msgs for your to look at and see what is the problem. >> >> Thanks again. >> >> .......dossDOSS; > >THE TEXT I TRIED TO SEND IS NOW IN AN ATTACHED FILE & I HOPE YOU'LL BE >ABLE TO READ IT OK -- IT'S IN ASCII TEXT FORMAT. SEE ATTACHMENT. > >RE YOUR LATER E-MAILS -- YES I'D LIKE TO MAKE HCT AVAILABLE ON INTERNET >BUT HAVEN'T HAD TIME & ENERGY TO TACKLE THAT ONE!! ANYONE WHO CAN HELP >MAKE IT HAPPEN WILL BE APPRECIATED >THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST is an independent Journal and has the >following editorial objectives: Thanks again. As for making the HCT available on Internet, I think Eldon will be the best person to give us some feedback on the best way to go about. I do have a scanner and so old issues in hard copy can be gradually scanned and converted into ASCII file and I can help doing it even though it may take some time. Once scanned, they could be posted on maillists like theos-talk and theos-l. Later they can be made available for retrieval on-line. Let us wait to hear from Eldon in this matter before we take some action in the matter. ....doss PS: I am copying this to theos-l and there may be others who may be forthcoming in helping in this project. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 07:00:41 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: about what Doss posted Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970606120041.00df1e00@mail.eden.com> At 09:14 PM 6/5/97 -0400, liesel f. deutsch wrote: >Dear Estrella, > >I agree with you about Besant and Leadbeater. There are some on this list >who inist on knocking these 2, and without letup. I've had long debates >about this in the past, and I'm very tired of seeing destructive garbage on >a Theosophical mailing list. All I want to say now is that if they were so >terrible, then how come somebody wrote a few days ago that the TS had the >largest membership ever while Besant was President. Also why is it that >Adyar, which is the branch which studies Besant and Leadbeater, among >others, is the one with the largest membership now? Must have done something >right? >Calling Alice Bailey a fraud is just as mean. There a people who find their >spiritual nourishment in her writings. Then why knock her? >I want to say once more that to my way of thinking there are so few >Theosophists, that we would do much better to find the similarities all our >sections can agree on, and dwell on those, rather than keep on harping on >our destructive differences. If we're going to form a nucleus of humanity, >let's put a little tolerance into the pie, and show some respect for each >other's beliefs. Wouldn't that be nice! > >Liesel > Liesel: I completely agree with Liesel. Everyone, Besant, Leadbeater, Bailey etc.. (including you, me and everyone associated with theosophy) has contributed. Some more and some less. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. We all may not agree on so many things. If X's speeches or writings have helped some, then so be it. If some do not like or agree with X's speeches or writings so be it. We cannot get unanimity on anything. If any one has sacrificed anything to help fellow beings, however small or great, that is of utmost importance to me. I thought I should share my fundamental approach, even though at times I may seem to be critical. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 97 8:54:03 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Theos-World 1975 messenger Message-ID: <199706061254.IAA05258@leo.vsla.edu> According to Richtay@aol.com: > > I would tend to go with the third option you suggested, that HPB was right, > there are/have been one (or more) "Messengers", and Theosophists as a whole > have missed him/her/them. I find this the least surprising and most likely > scenario given history. snip > > HPB did NOT say that a Messenger was going to be sent to the Theosphists. > Find me that reference ! The passage in The Key to Theosophy quoted before implies that the messenger would make him or herself known to the Theosophists, which is not the same as coming *only* to them. How could Theosophists rally round this person unless s/he claimed to be HPB's successor, etc.? > So I am not at all dismayed that I personally have no name on which to hang > the title of "messenger." Perhaps the cycle wasn't right for one single > Adept to come and announce him or herself. If there's anything to the idea of the Aquarian age, the cycle is right for transcending the whole master/slave mentality implicit in hierarchical spirituality. Thus a single messenger would definitely be out of synch, as would justifying one's work by claiming to be sent by authorities. > Surely we don't expect the messenger(s) to seize the world stage and direct > all attention to himself or herself? Would that be effective today? Rather, > I say look to the small bands of people accomplishing change today and ask > who is at their head? There we may find Mahatmas today. Not necessarily small bands. When asking which individuals have wielded the greatest positive influence to change societies dramatically in a nonviolent way, and align them more with true values, the names that come to me are Mandela and Gorbachev. (No flames please.) Cheers Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:13:23 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Dreams and Celibacy Message-ID: <970606101141_37792099@emout12.mail.aol.com> I tend to agree with most posts from Jerry S. (for whom I entertain considerable respect). However, I have a different view about two of his recent posts regarding dreams and celibacy. Namely: 1. Based upon my having lived a lot of years and, consequently, having experienced a lot of dreams I do not agree that "dreams are the Higher Self communicating to us ...". If this were so, every dream would be a very significant vision or even revelation. But the fact of the matter is that dreams, at least for most of us, tend to be quite ordinary in content, frequently "disjointed" in presentation and occasionally incomprehensible in nature. Of course, I do not deny the occurance of visions and even revelations during some intervals of unconsciousness (having experienced a few in my time). However, they are the exception and not the rule. My experience to date has been that anyone who seriously investigates the nature of dreaming (keeping a "diary" of them, analyzing their content, etc.) will discover that they are not of much significance. Others may disagree --- and some of them even write books about the importance of dreams in our lives. They are entitled to their opinions but they generally don't sell many books. Has anyone seen a "best seller" lately? IMHO dreams are simply the brain's method of sorting through and filing away information destined for permanent storage. To use an analogy, it is comparable to "cleaning up" or "defragging" a computer hard drive. My systematic investigation of numerous dreams led me inescapably to the following conclusions: (a) All of them had some connection with reality --- generally with recent events even though they seldom accurately "mirrored" those events. (b) A few of them turned out to be premonitions of future events although, again, those events were not accurately "mirrored." (c) Everyone dreams during extended periods of unconsciousness (i.e. normal sleeping patterns for the most part). The fact that we tend not to remember dreams does not constitute proof that we don't have them. How many of us can even remember what we had for lunch ten days ago? (d) The Higher Self communicate with its attendant physical brain during periods of unconsciousness ... but it also can do it during periods of consciousness. Only with some degree of difficulty, though, depending upon the individual. (e) Thus, all dreams have some relevance to our lives ... but very few are of real significance. Consequently, we should respect them but not be awed by them. 2. Regarding celibacy, the essential thing is not to sublimate or deny our physical nature but to learn how to control and rise above it. For the Biblically inclined, try 1st Corinthians 13:11 ("When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.") Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 97 15:15:24 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Theos-World Cayce and 1998 (fwd) Message-ID: <199706061915.PAA21827@leo.vsla.edu> In response to the question about Cayce and 1998: There are five major claims made in the Cayce readings about next year. First is that we will begin to perceive the meaning of the Aquarian Age for the first time. Although the shift from Piscean to Aquarian ages is gradual rather than precise, Cayce says 1998 is the time when Aquarian energies come through clearly. Second is that there will be a major discovery in Egypt, of Atlantean records buried in a chamber beneath the Sphinx. Third is that Edgar Cayce himself will be reborn. Fourth is that the Messiah will "enter." Fifth is that major earth changes will have commenced by then. As for the return of Christ, this is described in a variety of ways, some readings insisting that it will be literally Jesus as he was at the Last Supper while others talk about a universal Christ Consciousness manifesting. Regarding the earth changes, they were supposed to have begun by 1958 and to be well underway by 1998, so there's likely to be some disillusionment on that one. The A.R.E. faces all this not assuming that the readings are always accurate, but with expectancy and interest to see just how right or wrong they will turn out to be in this regard. He's messed up with dated prophecies before, so there's plenty of justification for doubt. But some of his predictions have been pretty good. I said I'd be watching the A.R.E. in 1998 because if there are no earth changes or Jesus returns, people will be in the mode of When Prophecy Fails, having to explain to themselves what went wrong. I see the position of Theosophists in 2000 as being similar. Cheers, Paul -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 14:51:42 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: unity in diversity among theosophists Message-ID: <199706062009.QAA08881@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >I >thought I should share my fundamental approach, even though at times I may >seem to be critical. > >..........doss Dear Doss, I think you're entitled. We say each one is to explore and make up his/her own mind as to what of theosophy they can accept, and what isn't compatible with their own mode of being. Your Kishna-j, to me, is an offspring of Theosophy. I've said that before. I think he says many of the same things in a different way, but it's based on theosophy. It depends on whose vibes you resonate with. Your vibes resonate with Krijshna-j, mine with CWL and AB, Patrick's with AAB. We still all speak of things we all comprehend. Please do express yourself, and add to the richness of our network's fabric. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 13:20:29 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: On the terrible fact of militias (the dugpas in goverment are attacking!) Message-ID: <3398710D.31E3@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hi guys and gals here No need to comment much Jaqi's terrible situation. here, close to the border, we have the same situation (Border patrol guys killing inmigrant mexicans,Mexican poor doped soldiers searching for subvertive groups (So close as San Quintin!) and terrible fights in the state of Guerrero, between guerrilla and soldiers, trucks full of soldiers sometimes passing in streets (speccialy when Zedillo came here) even when he is not here...can i prosigue? No, is too depresing knowing that, and as for you that you still think you live in the quiet hobbiton, it is no more, open the eyes, and realize that some terrible threat on YOUR COUNTRY (US) is rottening the minds of the pepole....i wish to be wrong, but incidents as Alfred Murrah's building won't be isolate. There are TOO MANY PARAMILITARY ORGANIZATIONS IN YOUR COUNTRY, be aware of the fact (of course, pepole here in this list are too wise for not hadded notice that) In Guatemala, was the first stop recognizable....remember the destruction there...if you knew of that, of course....i'll realize that pepole of US are the worst informed of the world. They are so inocent of realize of the danger, the real danger....i don't want to alarm you, but could be some paramilitary wars in your country.IS OUR RESPONSABILITY TO STAND UP AGAINST THAT AGRESSION. (Space for Chuck to make a black joke on the subject to cool this off) As for me, i'll print Jaqi's post and make some photocopies of that and post them in school. i'll try to make a spanish version. Estrella P.S. If someone here can localize Sweinn, tell them i'll write to him.... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 15:17:43 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: messengers Message-ID: <199706062035.QAA25680@ultra1.dreamscape.com> > the names that come to me are Mandela and >Gorbachev. (No flames please.) > >Cheers >Paul No flames at all. I think you're right. Can we also add Jimmy Carter? and maybe Bill Richardson? I'm thinking especiallly about Mandela. I never thought of him as a particularly spiritul man before, but he must be, since he endured all those tortures for so many years and then rose to become a very equaniminous ruler. Maybe he just seems to be very even in public, but he certainly has great stature and dignity. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:54:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Cayce and 1998 (fwd) Message-ID: <970606195412_-1363613027@emout20.mail.aol.com> Paul, Well, he may be right about the Sphinx. We don't know what is hidden in those chambers under it. In fact, the man who does my web page is heading for Egypt in August to be around when they get permission to dig into them from the Egyptian government. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:41:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Curiosity Message-ID: <5fjYsAAvAKmzEwjq@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970606015112_420912935@emout05.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-06-06 01:32:16 EDT, you write: > >>>The only Exalted One I know of is me. >>> >>>Chuck the Heretic >> >>Ahem .... >> >>Alan the Apostate >>--------- > >Ok, you can be Exalted too. > >Chuck the Heretic Phew!! That was *close*! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 20:02:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: On the terrible fact of militias (the dugpas in goverment are attacking!) Message-ID: <970606200209_1325210867@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-06 16:55:25 EDT, you write: >(Space for Chuck to make a black joke on the subject to cool this off) Estrella, Sorry to disappoint you on this, but it's one of the few things I don't joke about. The risks are actually far greater than you can imagine. What is keeping things less violent than they already are is the fact that the economy is in relatively good shape and people in the US generally don't feel threatened by outside forces. (One of the reasons Americans pay generally little attention to affairs in other countries is that our sheer size means we have so many problems of our own we just don't have time for it and the direct effect on the average American of anything in, let us say, Africa south of the Sahara is non-existent.) If things go south, as the saying goeth, people will look for scapegoats and all hell can break loose. Just go to the web and look up The Terrorist's Handbook and you can easily see how messy things can become. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:15:34 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: Alan: We've all thought about that. Just packing up everything and leaving the state. However, after thinking about it, we realized that it just isn't going to solve anything. The friend which was beaten is very concerned about the welfare of the rest of the people in this town, as I am. She's concerned about the ignorance of the general population here regarding the existence of such a militia. If we leave, it only means that we don't care about everyone else. Everyone is affected by them, whether they know it or not. We've decided to stay and try to expose them for what they are, in the hopes that they will 1) leave, or 2) be brought to justice. If I do leave, it will be a very selfish act indeed, and I won't be able to live with myself knowing that I left thousands of people in the dark. After we blow this thing out in the open, we probably will leave, for the aggression toward all of us will be very extreme, I'm sure. Patrick: You are correct in the reasons behind the rise of militias in the U.S. and their popularity. However, many militias are not just fighting for their rights. There is more to it than just that. This is the scenario. A friend of mine came up from California and bought some property up here. She is a metalsmith by trade, a skill passed down to her by her father. She built a house on her property, and a shop so that she could work on restoring things like antique swords and guns as well as creating some of her own "look-alikes" of the old weapons. She had a road which ran by her property and realized later that the road was ON her property. This road had a fair amount of traffic, and the point of buying the property where she did was to have some peace and quiet. It is basically out in the middle of nowhere. So she put up a "no trespassing" sign on the road allowing a neighbor she had become acquainted with to pass through if he wanted to. Things were ok for a while, but the neighbor soon began to start travelling the road with others and it didn't take long for the traffic to get just as bad as it was before. So my friend put a gate across the road. They went around the gate. A week or two later, she woke up to noises outside of her little cabin which she built herself. She took up a pistol and opened the door to look outside. It was dark, and she saw several shadows moving around. She fired a few shots into the air and the shadows scattered. I forgot to mention that she had been threatened before this by a few of the people living in her area, that if she tried to block their passage again, they would "do something" about it. Of course, she was very frightened by the disturbance outside, and decided to grab a shotgun, which wasn't loaded, to protect herself against anyone that had the nerve to approach her. As she was loading the gun, standing outside the door, a fist seemed to come out of nowhere, knocking her to the ground. Another followed, breaking her jaw and the bones in her ears. Her eye was pushed back into her skull, fortunately undamaged. Sometime after putting up the no trespassing sign and the attack, her neighbor had approached her, learning that she was a gunsmith, and asked her to come to a "neighborhood meeting". It was here that she found out about the militia. They wanted her to join them. To help them build guns, etc. in their fight for "freedom". They told her quite a lot about themselves. They showed her bits and pieces of their arsenal, some of which included automatic guns, rockets, and many other VERY illegal items. They told her of their cause, who they were, what they were fighting for. She quickly learned that these people were very "neo-nazi" oriented with regards to their ideas of a "free" society. Of course, she declined, agreeing with their concerns about freedom, but not their definition of freedom, and definitely not their violent way of obtaining it.It was here that she learned that her "wonderful" neighbor was the head of this organization. She went to police and they refused to investigate the matter. She went to the FBI and they told her "there is no militia here." She can't seem to get anyone to listen to her, despite the fact that she was almost killed. If the militia had been fighting for freedom, they would have surely understood the right that she had to her own land. They are not the kind of militia that I can respect. Granted, there are others which fight for the cause that I can agree with. The government takes away more and more of our rights by the week. They don't kill people due to their skin color, or sexual preference, etc. I can respect their values. The militia here I could never respect. Liesel: I honestly don't know how my fellow T/theosophists could help. The main problem we have is the fact that government agencies refuse to accept the fact that there is a problem here. They deny the violence as if they were TOLD to ignore it. What we need is someone who has enough influence in government and law enforcement to wake these people up! I refuse to believe that government agencies only know of the existence of the oppressive and hate-driven militias in Texas and Montana. Yet they deny the existence of one here ...the perfect place for one to be. Out in the middle of nowhere...a town with little crime. Maybe they are ignorant of the fact, but they even refused to investigate it. Even after my friend was physically assaulted on her own property! I just don't understand any of it. It frightens me a little, to know that this can happen to anyone and no one will do anything about it. The only choice we really have now is to bring the existence of these people out in the open. We want to let people know that they are not being protected, and there is definitely something here to be protected from. This is more than likely happening in every state in America. Possibly even on a world-wide basis. Who knows. If the government does know about such things, it doesn't appear that they want to tell anyone about it. Thank you all for your concern in this matter. It helps to know that someone is listening. I sent the letter in my prior post to several places. Human Rights organizations, the White House, Art Bell (a little media influence perhaps?), the Southern Poverty Law Center, and a few others. I am still waiting for replies from them. I doubt if I will get any. I'll be going over to speak with my friend tonight. I still don't know the whole story. I think that if I did, it would be much easier to write letters to the appropriate places and hopefully get a response. Good wishes, Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 22:16:21 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Sveinn Freyr' post Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970607031621.006f6fbc@mail.eden.com> Jim, - tell them to wake up. The Arhats will be with us in the next century, and then they will give us more teaching than ever before. And that will in time lead to this: The question I have is whether the teachings that have been given by HPB has been effective used up by the humanity. If not, I donot see how more teachings is going to help the humanity. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:13:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Sveinn Freyr' post Message-ID: <970607001343_71324624@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-06 23:40:54 EDT, you write: >Jim, - tell them to wake up. >The Arhats will be with us in the next century, and then they will give us >more teaching than ever before. And that will in time lead to this: > > That the Arhats will once again manage to sound like airheads and be universally ignored. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 02:08:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <970607020840_421030201@emout15.mail.aol.com> Jaqi I share your concern. The husband of a good friend of mine in Northern California got caught up in the militia movement there for short time. Fortunately, he got a job opportunity in another part of the state and after they moved, that ended that. For the moment, one of the advantages of living in an urbanized area is that we don't have that particular problem, but it is inevitable that it will find its way into the suburbs as well. There are, of course, certain psychic things that can be done to deal with it, but those methods make our Theosophical brethren very nervous. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 02:22:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: convention stuff Message-ID: <970607022239_-228573376@emout19.mail.aol.com> Ok folks. It's getting near Annual Meeting and Summer School time so that means that your friendly neighborhood heretic has to post his annual list of things to worry about. 1. Avoid drinking the water at Olcott if you can. It is tasting a little better, but they may still be experimenting with recycling. 2. The same applies to the food. If you can afford to, put aside money so you can eat one meal a day at a local restaurant. Your tummy will be happy and you may live longer. For some reason, TPTB will not let Bobby Jo spend money on food for the attendees and thus the quality of the stuff they serve is uniformly terrible. And one wonders if they are recycling again. 3. If you come in from Midway airport, do not, under any circumstances, attempt to use public transportation between there and Olcott. The natives are not friendly and the rats are not vegetarians. 4. If you leave the estate, carry a bible with you at all times. This will protect you from the local militia. 5. Avoid taking a Kern scholarship if you can. Adele has it in her head that people who get scholarships should earn their keep by helping to recycle the food back into the kitchen from the lavatory. 6. Beating kettle drums outside of John's window after 10:30 pm is a no-no. He will transform into a velociraptor and eat you. 7. Do not bring your pet elephant into the auditorium unless it is potty trained. This message of spiritual hope was brought to you the Theosophical Order of Chaos Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 06:34:59 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: militia Message-ID: <199706071153.HAA04300@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Jaqi, Have you tried your Congressman, Senator, State Legislator, Governor? I think the Congressman and the State Legislator would be the most likely candidates to listen. Do take good care of yourself. I'll send some good energy your way to help you. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 05:28:22 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <339937C1.70B683F6@earthlink.net> I agree, of course, that there so-called "militias" of all types ...some racist, some thugs, ...but the vast majority are good. <> Ah, actually in the U.S. there are no illegal weapons...any citizen has the right to own any including a battleship if they could afford it...the trick of the law is that weapojhs are taxed and there is a transfer tax that must be paid (which is not usually known) and this is how the gov't charges people...for not paying taxes on weapons. Shanti, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 05:59:31 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Theos-World Cayce and 1998 (fwd) Message-ID: <33993F0E.4213ADE3@earthlink.net> These predictions for 1998 are fascinating...some indications <>      This also when both Neptune & Uranus are in Aquarius together...a powerul alignment...giving "electrical intuition" in relation the sign. << Second is that there will be a major discovery in Egypt, of Atlantean records buried in a chamber beneath the Sphinx.>>      There has already been, as I suppose many know, a seismic survey of that area and they have confirmed that there is an undergreound chamber there...they are just now waiting for permission to excavate. << Third is that Edgar Cayce himself will be reborn. Fourth is that the Messiah will "enter."  Fifth is that major earth changes will have commenced by then.>>      Astrologically major earth changes are said to begin in a couple of weeks and continue for two years..we'll see. Namaste, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 12:06:20 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: about what Doss posted Message-ID: <339986FC.3697@sprynet.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > Calling Alice Bailey a fraud is just as mean. There a people who find their > spiritual nourishment in her writings. Then why knock her? I would not call Alice Bailey a fraud, myself. One of the major legal points of fraud is that the person who is committing it must know that they are telling something that is untrue (or holding something as true which they do not know to be true). In any case, I do not personally believe that Bailey was in contact with a Mahatma, but I do believe that BAILEY believed that she was in contact with one. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 09:53:31 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Self-Indulgence (reply to Jerry) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970607095331.007ba580@90.0.0.1> Jerry: >>The passionate energies don't go away. Instead, I'd say, they become >>the wind in our sails, the driving power behind the acts of >>creativity, originality, and expressiveness that we perform in >>the world. >Eldon, I certainly don't disagree. I was arguing with the idea >of self-indulgence. The ML quote implies that self-indulgence is >ALWAYS wrong. My point is that just to sit down and rest, >have a cup of tea, breathe fresh air, and so on are all >examples of self-indulgence and are perfectly natural, >are human, and are OK. The MAHATMA LETTERS quote that we're both referring to was written in Victorian times, and needed to be expressed in a certain way in order to have the desired effect on Sinnett. Perhaps part of the intent was to get Sinnett to "shape up", lighten up on his drinking, and bring more of as ascetic element in his life. Elsewhere they mention that chelas have a hard time visiting his home because of the "obnoxious fumes". To enjoy life a little bit does not lead to a "slippery slope", downwards to compulsive self-indulgence and general destruction of one's life. On the other hand, in chelaship, latent karma is awakened and one's outer life is turned into chaos and turmoil. One's life has changed from calm waters to something like white-water rafting. Exceptional skill is required to stay in control -- or to go the course without being overcome by external events -- and continual alertness and skillful means are necessary. Something passionate won't ruin one's chances for the Path, but even in moments of the enjoyment of life one needs to be ever alert, responsive to life, and ever ready to point again to "true north", like a good compass. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 10:55:36 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: Jaqi's issue Message-ID: <3399A098.6EBE@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hello from Ensenada,B.C. Mexico. I think i have some idea' for Jaqi's problem (It won't correct the problem, but she can comunicate it much better) Jaqi: You have divulgated well the problem in US Humanitarian agencies, press, etc etc etc. I do not know if this will help, but give it a try: In Mexico, the best reporter magazine is called PROCESO. is a magazine on every issue, and is read in ALL MEXICO, as well than in another countries, especcialy US. They made in the last issues, some (how is called "reportaje" in english"?) "reportajes" (investigations, divulgations, i don't know the exact word) in paramilitary militias, and on the facist "Colonia Dignidad" (sort of a type of David Koresh cult) in Chile. you should give it a try. they (PROCESO) are the best qualificed journalist in whole Mexico, the most imparcial and the director of PROCESO (Julio Schrer) has won some prizes. the weekly magazine has reporters in US. you should give it a try. I don't have right now the adress of the magazine, i'll post it monday if you are interested.Or maybe you don't want publicity. you have the option of being private, i think you have. but if you want to everybody know of the problem, perhaps you can give this info to the best and also best known magazine in all Mexico. you can reach a very large area of pepole, many of them will be very solidarized with you, i can assure. that's the thing why i like my pepole. all of them are very solidary. very propense to give a helping hand. Just make your friend know of this. Think about it and you can tell me later. I'll keep in touch. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 13:03:02 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Moral Standards Message-ID: <3399A256.1751@eden.com> Best thing I read today, was a quote from a French Soldier regarding all the adultery charges in the US Military. The soldier said that there would not be any French Military left if US Standards on adultery were applied to the French Military. May be that would be a way to shut down the French Military. I don't think they have fight any more wars. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:35:51 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: Jaqi ... As clear a statement of the effects of Theosophy on the world as I've heard in quite some time. All the philosophy in the world means nothing if it does not reify into moral courage in day to day life. -JRC On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: > Alan: > We've all thought about that. Just packing up everything and leaving the > state. However, after thinking about it, we realized that it just isn't > going to solve anything. The friend which was beaten is very concerned > about the welfare of the rest of the people in this town, as I am. She's > concerned about the ignorance of the general population here regarding the > existence of such a militia. If we leave, it only means that we don't > care about everyone else. Everyone is affected by them, whether they know > it or not. We've decided to stay and try to expose them for what they > are, in the hopes that they will 1) leave, or 2) be brought to justice. > If I do leave, it will be a very selfish act indeed, and I won't be able > to live with myself knowing that I left thousands of people in the dark. > After we blow this thing out in the open, we probably will leave, for the > aggression toward all of us will be very extreme, I'm sure. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 20:07:18 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Moral Standards Message-ID: <3399F7B6.227C@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Best thing I read today, was a quote from a French Soldier regarding all > the adultery charges in the US Military. The soldier said that there > would not be any French Military left if US Standards on adultery were > applied to the French Military. May be that would be a way to shut down > the French Military. I don't think they have fight any more wars. There would not be any US Military left if the US standards on adultery were applied to the US Military. Why do you think there's so much of a fuss? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 01:23:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: In message <339937C1.70B683F6@earthlink.net>, apriorip@earthlink.net writes >I agree, of course, that there so-called "militias" of all types ...some >racist, some thugs, ...but the vast majority are good. Good for what??? Here in the UK all handguns are now illegal except .22, and they are about to go. Any other kind of gun needs a licence, they are hard to get, and storage is strictly controlled. We don't miss them. The police are occasionally armed for special duties in the public interest. That's enough. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 22:17:57 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Moral Standards Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608031757.00762a20@mail.eden.com> At 08:12 PM 6/7/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> Best thing I read today, was a quote from a French Soldier regarding all >> the adultery charges in the US Military. The soldier said that there >> would not be any French Military left if US Standards on adultery were >> applied to the French Military. May be that would be a way to shut down >> the French Military. I don't think they have fight any more wars. > > There would not be any US Military left if the US standards on adultery >were applied to the US Military. Why do you think there's so much of a >fuss? > > Bart Lidofsky > Just because of discriminatory application. Also it is what makes news. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 22:19:35 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608031935.0076ccd0@mail.eden.com> At 08:39 PM 6/7/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <339937C1.70B683F6@earthlink.net>, apriorip@earthlink.net >writes >>I agree, of course, that there so-called "militias" of all types ...some >>racist, some thugs, ...but the vast majority are good. > >Good for what??? Here in the UK all handguns are now illegal except >.22, and they are about to go. Any other kind of gun needs a licence, >they are hard to get, and storage is strictly controlled. > >We don't miss them. The police are occasionally armed for special >duties in the public interest. That's enough. > >Alan Here in Texas, USA, last year they passed a law permitting citizens to carry concealed weapons. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 02:06:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <970608020615_354724202@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-07 23:33:02 EDT, you write: >We don't miss them. The police are occasionally armed for special >duties in the public interest. That's enough. > > I would certainly miss mine. The police are never to be relied upon for anything except collecting bribes. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 02:07:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <970608020731_-1964935633@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-08 00:28:48 EDT, you write: >Here in Texas, USA, last year they passed a law permitting citizens to carry >concealed weapons. > >..........doss I have often carried one myself and I'm alive to be on this board because of it. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 02:14:44 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <19970607.231305.16231.1.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:21:23 -0400 (EDT) M K Ramadoss writes: >At 08:39 PM 6/7/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >>In message <339937C1.70B683F6@earthlink.net>, >>apriorip@earthlink.net writes >>>I agree, of course, that there so-called "militias" of all types >>>...some racist, some thugs, ...but the vast majority are good. >>Good for what??? Here in the UK all handguns are now illegal except >>.22, and they are about to go. Any other kind of gun needs a >>licence, they are hard to get, and storage is strictly controlled. >> >>We don't miss them. The police are occasionally armed for special >>duties in the public interest. That's enough. >> >>Alan >Here in Texas, USA, last year they passed a law permitting citizens to >carry concealed weapons. > >..........doss I've heard that Switzerland is a very safe place to live, since everyone is forced to have guns. Maybe England has succeeded in keeping almost everyone from having guns, which would have the same result, but the most insecure combination is typified by the United States, where there are too many criminals with guns and too much gun control, and where the worst crime statistics are where there is the most gun control, whereas those cities which have followed Switzerland's example have very low crime rates. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 01:34:32 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: High Country Theosophist - Sept 1992 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608063432.00dc84c4@mail.eden.com> Hello In response to a request, Dick Slusser, the Editor of The High Country Theosophist has made the September 1992 issue available for posting on the theos-l. All of us should be profoundly thankful to Dick for letting HCT be posted on theos-l. It is hoped that posting will help many theos-l subscribers in the USA and especially outside USA be able to read the publication for free. This will be appreciated particularly by those who cannot afford to purchase them and also for those in some of the countries, especially in the former Soviet Union and third world, where access to US Dollars is very tough and relatively very expensive. It is hoped that other issues of HCT (including the back issues) will be posted on theos-l in future. Any comments may please be posted on theos-l and copied to Dick Slusser at dslusser@indra.com ........MK Ramadoss CC: Dick Slusser ------------------------------------------------------------------- THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST has the following editorial objectives: (1) To present articles and essays consistent with source theosophy, otherwise known as the Ancient Wisdom; as given by The Masters and H.P. Blavatsky, and other theosophical writers consistent with this tradition. (2) To examine contemporary ethical, religious, metaphysical, scientific and philosophical issues from the viewpoint of the source theosophical teachings. 3) To impartially examine significant events and issues in the history of the theosophical movement which have affected and shaped its present-day realities. (4) To serve as a forum for the free interchange of ideas and commentary and to facilitate various projects in furtherance of Theosophical principles. Annual subscriptions renew in June. Complimentary copies and abstracts of back issues are available on request to: Dick Slusser, 140 S. 33rd. St., Boulder, Colo. 80303-3426. Tel. (303) 494-5482. THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, ISSN 1060-4766 is published monthly for $7.50 per year by Richard Slusser, 140 S. 33rd St., Bldr, CO. 80303-3426. POSTMASTER: Send address changes to: THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST 140 S. 33rd St., Boulder, CO. 80303-3426 Second Class Postage Paid at Boulder, CO. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 02:01:19 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: HCT - Sept 1992 - Part 1 of 3 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608070119.0072b92c@mail.eden.com> This is being posted in three parts. ---------------------------------------------------- THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST VOL. 7 NO. 9 BOULDER, COLORADO SEPTEMBER, 1992 CONTENTS The Canadian Section: Excommunicated 1 Canadian Trip report 10 Kootenai Brown and Victor Endersby 13 High Country Study Center Name changed 15 QWAA Project report 15 Boris de Zirkoff Tapes available 15 Calendar 16 The Canadian Section - Excommunicated Readers of The High Country Theosophist not having access to The Theosophist (Adyar) or the Canadian Theosophist may not be aware of the action taken on January 1, 1992 by the Adyar General Council under the leadership of International President Radha Burnier in expelling the entire Canadian Section from the Adyar Theosophical Society. The approximate sequence of events leading up to this action is as follows [CT July `92]: In August 1991, members of the T.S. in Canada were mailed notice of proposed changes in the Section by-laws, one of which would delete the words "Parent Society" from its language because "old wording creates a conflict position with the [Canadian] Corporations Act, as deleted word[s] suggest another body owning controlling interest, such as a majority of shares, which is not the case. Only members shall have an interest in this corporation, which is without shareholders. This change in no way affects our affiliation with any other T.S. Organization." In September `91, the proposed change was passed, along with others at the annual members' meeting and submitted to the Canadian government for approval. No official notification of the by-law changes was sent to Adyar at that time because, according to Canadian General Secretary Stan Treloar; (1) They are not required to do so by law. (2) Until the Canadian government passed judgement and approved the changes, the by-laws amendment was but a memorandum of intent to change. (3) Adyar rules allow for exceptions to be made when these conflict with the laws of the country of jurisdiction. Such a conflict with Canadian Corporate law did exist in the case of the words "Parent Society" in the by-laws. (4) As Branches and National Sections are assumed to be autonomous, the National Secretary regarded the wording of their by-laws to meet the requirements of Canadian Corporate law to be an internal matter consistent with autonomy. [CT July `92] In The Theosophist [Adyar] for April `92, the following notice appears, announcing the break: In Canada, for a long time, there were two groups of lodges and members, namely the Canadian Section T.S. and the Canadian Federation T.S. The origin of these two bodies goes back to the first quarter of this century. Normally the T.S. does not approve of the existence of separate bodies in the same place, since its aim is to unite all people in a nucleus of universal brotherhood. Only when there are serious and weighty reasons, lodges or individuals are permitted to leave the concerned National Society and become directly attached to headquarters. There were such reasons to allow a Federation independent of the Section in Canada. [In an autocratic style, typical of Adyar management under Mrs. Burnier, no further information or hint is given herein as to the `reasons' and the reader is left to guess what sins the Canadians are accused of in the 1920s. We shall investigate that historical context below. (ed. HCT)] However, the Canadian Section (The T.S. in Canada) took steps in 1991 to alter the picture. Registered in 1976 as a Corporation under the laws governing business corporations in Canada, some changes were made in its by-laws which were incompatible with the Rules and Regulations of the International Society. Though the then President Mr. John Coats objected, the situation did not change. Last year, several amendments were again made to the by-laws, eliminating all references to the International Society. After discussion of the different aspects of the question, the General Council (the governing body) of the International Society decided, at its meeting of 1 January 1992, that since all references to the parent Society have been removed from its by-laws, the T.S. in Canada can no longer be considered as part of the International Society. The Canadian Federation thus now remains the only body affiliated to the International Society and recognized as a constituent. [p. 276] * * * * * * * I think it is a truism that the events of a given historical period can rarely be understood and appreciated by younger generations as fully as by those elders who have actually lived through those events. As my own years accumulate I find that my understanding of the history of WWII is usually far better than that of those whose understanding was gleaned from a history book -- because I lived those war years. This is not to denigrate or belittle the upcoming generations in any way -- they too will live their "history" as it unfolds. Just so, we theosophists who were either too young or were not in the Movement when a schism in the Canadian T.S. resulted in the birth of the Canadian Federation will quite reasonably ask "Why did this occur?" To understand the factors which led to this schism of the Movement in Canada, one must study the events of that time in Canadian Theosophical history. My first intimation that there was something to be learned was hearing that "The Canadian T.S. has long been a `thorn in the side' of Adyar." Looking among my back issues of The Canadian Theosophist, I find in the CT for March 1926, a series of articles criticizing, in the main, the direction being taken by the Adyar T.S. under the leadership of Annie Besant. Albert E.S. Smythe, was then editor of The Canadian Theosophist and General Secretary of the Canadian T.S. Theosophy came to Canada via A.E.S. Smythe 101 years ago. Smythe emigrated to Canada from Ireland, and on the boat he met W.Q. Judge, who convinced him of the merits of Theosophy. Canada's first charter came via Judge, as the then head of American Section. [CT July `92 p. 73] A.E.S. Smythe became the spearhead for Canadian criticism of Adyar's direction and gathered about him a substantial following of Canadian sympathizers. Those whose loyalties remained with Adyar, as led by the Besant-Leadbeater duo, left the Canadian T.S. to form the Canadian Federation. (Chartered in 1924, according to Adyar. [The Theosophist April `92 p. 278]) >From the lead article of that 1926 issue of the CT, we read: "So many ardent admirers of Mrs. Besant all over the world are asking themselves and others -- `In view of recent happenings and pronouncements, what are we to think of Mrs. Besant?' ... To get a clear view it is basically necessary to eliminate all bias or prejudice. Not otherwise may the truth be known undistorted, pure, of this or any subject. The writer is of those who owe very much to Mrs. Besant for her lucid coherent presentation of the Ancient Wisdom. If H.P.B. is an exhaustless spring of water of life from which the writer is constantly drawing more and more to satisfy his needs spiritual, mental, ethical, etc., it is due in a very high degree to Mrs. Besant who has made H.P.B. possible for him. Surely then, ingratitude is in such case unthinkable. But he has never learned from Mrs. Besant that he should sacrifice his allegiance to his own Higher Self, his own independence of judgement, on the altar of any personality. He has been asked `Why, if in the past you accepted Mrs. Besant's assertions in matters that you could not verify by first hand knowledge, should you balk now?' A fair question. It implies that he does balk, at least in some things. And his only answer is that, for him, certain recent claims do not ring as true as her earlier teachings. Is Mrs. Besant deliberately misleading people? The writer does not think so. It is contrary to her entire career. Knowing her bitter struggles for truth and freedom of thought, it is utterly inconceivable that she would deliberately mislead. There remain only two alternatives: The claims are valid, or, Mrs. Besant is herself the victim of illusion. The analysis of why these claims `do no ring true' will not be undertaken now. ... But we may ask: `Is it quite impossible that Mrs. Besant may be, in these matters, under the sway of illusion?' All the Wisdom Teaching and Teachers, herself included, agree that the psychic world, the Hall of Learning, is by its very nature deceptive. Is it taking too much upon ourselves to decide whether Mrs. Besant has been caught in the toils or not? Yet, we cannot, we dare not, shirk the responsibility. It is imperative that we decide for ourselves whom and what we shall believe. `To thine own self be true, and it follows as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man.' Of course this raises the problem of acute and constant discrimination as to which statements we may accept, which reject; but no problem gets solved by shelving it. Intuition does not grow by refusing to use it, it atrophies. Mistakes may be made, but with honesty and sincerity they will soon or late work their own cure. `Truth may lose many battles but no wars.'" * * * * * * * In the same CT issue, A.E.S. Smythe takes A.B. to task for her speeches predicting the coming of the Messiah and World Teacher in the person of J. Krishnamurti, giving forth the opinion that she is reliably on solid ground on such practical topics as "The problem[s] of: Colour, Nationality, Education, Capital and Labour and Government," saying that "these sound like the Mrs. Besant we used to follow." He goes on to say: "`The coming of the World Teacher' sounds like Mr. Jinarajadasa, Mr. Leadbeater and the seance room, the medium and the speaking trumpet. If standards be required, read `The Mahatma Letters' and note the virile and manful difference. We get the truer note in Mrs. Besant's six lectures. `The true evolution is not that kind of unity which would abolish the gains made by diversity.' This is either true or it is not. I believe it is true. But the religious side of Mrs. Besant's mind would have us all bow down to one conception, and her followers in Canada have left the T.S. in Canada [for the Federation (ed. HCT.)] because they cannot have the unity which she here proclaims as inadvisable." * * * * * * * We have evidence, in the form of a letter received by Annie Besant in 1900, that Master K.H. had warned her of the trials and pitfalls that lay in her path as president of the Adyar Society. First published in expurgated form (C. Jinarajadasa compiler) in Letters >From The Masters of Wisdom, Second Series (Adyar), the full text appeared in The Eclectic Theosophist for Sept. 1987 with the following explanatory preface: "In 1900, a B.W. Mantri of India, wrote a letter to Annie Besant, then in England, dated August 22nd. When A.B. opened it she found on its back, some lines in the well-known blue pencilling of the MASTER K.H. In the volume published in 1919 by the Theosophical Publishing House of Adyar, this letter and the blue pencilled lines are reproduced and are included in all subsequent printings." [Note: the photographic reproduction of the K.H. message is omitted in my sixth printing. The frontispiece lists the first through fifth editions, 1919-1964, then a sixth printing - 1973. (ed. HCT)] "In the 1948 printing [edition?], Mr. Jinarajadasa adds some historical comments and includes some letters newly found and never before printed from K.H. to Laura Holloway, H.P.B. and Olcott. The pencilled lines from K.H. to Mrs. Besant in the 1900 letter, however, were never published in completeness, as ellipses dots indicate, the editors omitting certain lines they considered too private for public reading. The following now is the complete letter, earlier omissions being indicated in bold letters. The earnest student will study these omissions, which in context reveal Master's fuller and clear advice." [The Master's letter follows]: "... The TS and its members are slowly manufacturing a creed. Says a Thibetan proverb "credulity breeds credulity and ends in hypocrisy." How few are they who can know anything about us. Are we to be propitiated and made idols of? Is the worship of a new Trinity made up of the Blessed M., Upasika [H.P.B., ed. HCT] and yourself to take the place of exploded creeds? We ask not for the worship of ourselves. The disciple should in no way be fettered. Beware of an Esoteric Popery. The intense desire to see Upasika reincarnate at once has raised a misleading Mayavic ideation. Upasika has useful work to do on higher planes and cannot come again so soon. The TS must be safely be ushered into the new century. You have for some time been under deluding influences. Shun pride, vanity and love of power. Be not guided by emotion but learn to stand alone. Be accurate and critical rather than credulous. The mistakes of the past in the old religions must not be glossed over with imaginary explanations. The [Esoteric School of Theosophy] must be reformed so as to be as unsectarian and creedless as the T.S. The rules must be few and simple and acceptable to all. No one has a right to claim authority over a pupil or his conscience. Ask him not what he believes. All who are sincere and pure minded must have admittance. The crest wave of intellectual advancement must be taken hold of and guided into spirituality. It cannot be forced into beliefs and emotional worship. The higher thoughts of the members in their collectivity must guide all action in the T.S. and E.S. We never try to subject to ourselves the will of another. At favorable times we let loose elevating influences which strike various persons in various ways. It is the collective aspect of many such thoughts that can give the correct note of action. We show no favors. The best corrective of error is an honest and open-minded examination of all facts subjective and objective. Misleading secrecy has given the death blow to numerous organizations. The cant about "Masters" must be silently but firmly be put down. Let the devotion and service be to that Supreme Spirit alone of which one is a part. Namelessly and silently we work and the continual references to ourselves and the repetition of our names raises up a confused aura that hinders our work. You will have to leave a good deal of your emotions and credulity before you become a safe guide among the influences that will commence to work in the new cycle. The T.S. was meant to be the cornerstone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thought and outward observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength. K.H." -------------------- end of part 1 of 3 ---------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 02:01:36 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: HCT - Sept 1992 - Part 2 of 3 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608070136.007358a8@mail.eden.com> THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST VOL. 7 NO. 9 BOULDER, COLORADO SEPTEMBER, 1992 ------- Part 2 of 3 ------------------------------- There is much to reflect on in this letter of warning from the Master to Annie Besant. We, as custodians of the Theosophical Movement in our time, need to ponder and ask ourselves how far the Adyar Society has been led astray from the `Original Programme' of the Masters by Besant-Leadbeater and their successors. Today, we see the Adyar leadership demanding absolute loyalty and compliance with its rules and dictates from its member organizations. As an example of this, we note the following: The Theosophical Society in Canada placed a half page ad in the Summer 1991 issue of The Quest informing its Canadian readers that Society Rules require that persons wishing to join the Theosophical Society must apply to the Society in the country of their residence, and advising Canadian readers of Quest to write to the T.S. in Canada. The ad appeared in the next 3 issues, the last running in Spring 1992. Stan Treloar reports that "five days after getting the excommunication letter from Adyar, I had a phone call from the company that looks after the advertising for various magazines, including The Quest. He stated as follows, `I have been requested to advise you by `The Quest' magazine, that on orders from headquarters in India, the T.S. in America cannot further permit your ad to appear in `The Quest' magazine." [CT July`92]. The Quest is owned and published by the T.S. in America and is presently heavily subsidized by a Kern Foundation grant, as it has been since its inception. The Master's letter warns: "credulity breeds credulity and ends in hypocrisy." We are assured that each Theosophical Society is "autonomous" in the management of its own affairs. Are we not adding credulity upon credulity when we accept such lip-service and are then faced with the hypocrisy of the statement in The Theosophist i.e.; "Normally the T.S. does not approve of the existence of separate bodies in the same place, since its aim is to unite all people in a nucleus of universal brotherhood. !! What had H.P.B. to say concerning "loyalty to Adyar?" In a rebuke to Richard Harte, editor of The Theosophist at Adyar in 1889, H.P.B. said regarding `loyalty to Adyar'; "It is pure nonsense to say that `H.P.B. is loyal to the Theosophical Society and to Adyar'(!?). H.P.B. is loyal to death to the Theosophical CAUSE, and those great Teachers whose philosophy can alone bind the whole Humanity into one Brotherhood. ... Therefore the degree of her sympathies with the `Theosophical Society and Adyar' depends upon the degree of loyalty of that Society to the CAUSE. Let it break away from the original lines and show disloyalty in its policy to the CAUSE and the original programme of the Society, and H.P.B. calling the T.S. disloyal, will shake it off like dust from her feet. And what does `loyalty to Adyar' mean, in the name of all wonders? What is Adyar, apart from the CAUSE and the two (not one Founder, if you please) who represent it? Why not loyal to the compound or to the bathroom of Adyar? .. There is no longer a `Parent Society', it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical Societies, all autonomous, as are the States of America ...' [B.C.W. XI, 380-81] * * * * * * * So, it seems, we have arrived at the time where there now exist two distinct and separate Theosophical lineages in Canada: The Canadian Federation representing Adyar and the distinctly neo-theosophical philosophy of Besant, Leadbeater, Jinarajadasa and Hodgson, etc. and The T.S. in Canada, tracing its lineage to H.P. Blavatsky and the Masters via A.E.S. Smythe and W.Q. Judge. For the benefit of HCT readers, relatively new to the Theosophical Movement, one can (temporarily overlooking significant differences in historical unfoldment), now classify to a fair degree of approximation: The Canadian Federation with the Theosophical Society in America headquartered at Wheaton, Illinois; and The Theosophical Society in Canada with the various representatives of the W.Q. Judge lineage in the U.S.; i.e., T.S. (Pasadena), Point Loma and United Lodge of Theosophists. * * * * * * * In the concluding chapter of The Key To Theosophy, H.P.B. talks of the future of The Theosophical Society: "Its future will depend almost entirely upon the degree of selflessness, earnestness, devotion, and last, but not least, on the amount of knowledge and wisdom possessed by those members, on whom it will fall to carry on the work, and to direct the Society after the death of the Founders. Enq.: I quite see the importance of their being selfless and devoted, but I do not quite grasp how their knowledge can be as vital a factor in the question as these other qualities. Surely the literature which already exists, and to which constant additions are still being made, ought to be sufficient? H.P.B.: I do not refer to technical knowledge of the esoteric doctrine, though that is most important; I spoke rather of the great need which our successors in the guidance of the Society will have of unbiased and clear judgement. Every such attempt as the Theosophical Society has hitherto ended in failure, because, sooner or later, it has degenerated into a sect, set up hard-and-fast dogmas of its own, and so lost by imperceptible degrees that vitality which living truth alone can impart. You must remember that all our members have been bred and born in some creed or religion, that all are more or less of their generation both physically and mentally, and consequently that their judgment is but too likely to be warped and unconsciously biassed by some or all of these influences. If, then, they cannot be freed from such inherent bias, or at least taught to recognise it instantly and so avoid being led away by it, the result can only be that the Society will drift off on to some sandbank of thought or another, and there remain a stranded carcass to moulder and die." * * * * * * * In ways evidently not foreseen by H.P.B., we have today the growth of independent `shoots from the roots,' as it were, bearing the heritage of and growing alongside what remains of the trunk of the original `tree' of the Theosophical Society which once contained the pure swabhavic essence of the Ancient Wisdom, tended and raised in the Nursery of Mankind's Master Nurserymen. The task now falls to us, as inheritors of the garden of human wisdom, to recognize and nurture those shoots which embody the pure and true swabhavic essence of the seed from which the original tree grew or perhaps encourage new shoots remaining true to the ideal. For, we are reminded that Forms (in this case Societal Organizations) are merely vehicles; what is important is the Monadic essence ensouling the form -- which is to be used only so long as it true to the original impulse and is useful to the evolution of its ensouling monad. CANADIAN TRIP REPORT We left Boulder at mid afternoon on July 23, bound for Calgary with two mountain bikes atop the car. On our way northward to the border, we passed through Great Falls, Montana and into the beautiful green and rolling ranch country of Judith basin. Crossing the Canadian border at Sweetgrass, Montana, we continued north and west to Lethbridge where we picked up Highway 2, by any other name a U.S. Interstate. We arrived in Calgary in late afternoon and were made welcome by Ted and Doris Davy, recently retired as long time co-editors of the CT. Ted is a past General Secretary of the T.S. in Canada and Doris is currently Secretary of the Calgary Lodge. Doris served us a healthful and delicious vegetarian dinner, during which we described our route from Boulder, mentioning having enjoyed the beauty of Judith basin in Montana. Ted mentioned that Victor Endersby had been born there and had come to what is now southern Alberta in the vicinity of Waterton Lakes with his parents where he met Kootenai Brown. After dinner he showed me a back issue of the CT (May 1980) which carried a letter in which Endersby describes his childhood reminiscences of Kootenai Brown. I found it so interesting that I include it in the this issue of the HCT. (HCT readers will remember Jerry Hejka-Ekins' talk on Victor Endersby at the Theosophical History Conference -- HCT July `92) We spent Sunday on the Bow river and Nose Creek bike paths scouting our exit route by bike from Calgary. Because of forecasted rainstorms and the probability of headwinds, we chose to leave for Edmonton on Monday morning, a day early and arrived in Edmonton Thursday afternoon after 3 1/2 days travel, averaging some 50 to 60 miles a day. Our early arrival, although unexpected by our Edmonton hosts Ernest and Rogelle Pelletier, was welcomed as it provided an opportunity for us to meet Lodge vice-president Stephania who was leaving Friday morning for a holiday. The Edmonton Lodge is housed in the tastefully finished basement of the Pelletier residence, a large meeting room perhaps 20 feet square. The walls are lined with bookcases housing the Lodge library which contains a wide and comprehensive collection of metaphysical and Theosophical titles. We were impressed in seeing, first-hand, the dedication and long hours of painstaking labor that Ernest and Rogelle have spent in their continuing project of reprinting important and heretofore out-of-print periodicals of the Theosophical Movement such as The Irish Theosophist, Theosophia, Dawn, etc. Our own appreciation is the more genuine, owing to our current similar efforts with G. de Purucker's Questions We All Ask. The Lodge has in its archives a continuous record of meeting minutes dating back to its inception in 1911 and it was on the basis of these records that the courts allowed the lodge to incorporate as a non-profit organization. On Sunday, August 2nd, we attended a special meeting of the Edmonton Lodge in order to share with them the archival material on G. de Purucker we had been granted access to by Emmett Small when we visited Point Loma in the Spring of 1991. The essence of this previously unpublished material, entitled The Mystery of G. de Purucker, appeared with permission in the July 1991 HCT and consists a certified transcript of 1932 meeting of G. de P's Executive Committee in which he described his role as a former Tibetan Chela who had, with the help of his Adept Teachers, taken over the body of the dying Purucker child by the Occult process of Tulku. We also shared additional material relating to the details of his initiation as a messenger from the Lodge of his Teachers, following the death of Katherine Tingley, in which he voluntarily relinquished certain principles of his seven-fold nature in order to provide a channel for and facilitate communication with his Teachers. This provided a more complete understanding than has been heretofore available of the mystery surrounding H.P.B. in which she is referred to as a "psychological cripple" in Theosophical literature. [See Letter of A.O. Hume to K.H. in Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett, p. 307 and M.L. No. 26] Marty and I were gratified and relieved that during the entire meeting the focus of interest and trend of discussion was reflective and intuitive, being directed toward the inner significance of passages and drawing forth precepts and principles useful to all of us in our daily lives rather than a preoccupation with the phenomenal aspect. We both felt that the quality of questioning here compared quite favorably with that of G. de P.'s Katherine Tingley Memorial Group in the Dialogues of G. de Purucker. After the meeting we all enjoyed a Pizza supper. We regretted missing the informal discussion following the meeting as we had to repack our panniers and load them on the bikes so as to be ready for an early start in the morning. It was hard to leave folks who in 4 short days already felt like family, but by 8:15, following an early breakfast and hugs all around and quick photos for all, we were rolling westward on the "White Mud" expressway to the junction leading to highway 16 which would take us to Jasper, our next destination. The remainder of the trip over the Icefield parkway to Lake Louise and Banff was scenic in the way that can only be experienced on a bicycle -- a truly unforgettable experience. HCT readers interested in details of the bicycle portions of the trip should write to editor HCT, requesting "Round Robin `92", Canadian Trip. KOOTENAI BROWN AND VICTOR ENDERSBY John George "Kootenai" Brown was the first Superintendent of Waterton Lakes National Park of southern Alberta. The following reminiscence of Kootenai Brown is by Victor Endersby, whose uncle sponsored Brown's application to join the Theosophical Society in 1898. Endersby is author of The Hall of Magic Mirrors, a defence of H.P. Blavatsky. He was also editor and publisher of Theosophical Notes. [Endersby's letter to CT editor Ted Davy was prompted by mention in the Sept. '79 CT of Ted and Doris' visit to Waterton Lakes where Brown was its first superintendent. ed. HCT.] "Your mention of Kootenai Brown stirred great personal memories of my own, which as a karmic study might interest your readers. Kootenai was probably in some ways the best friend I ever had, though at the time he was in his seventies and I was a small boy. I was born in Montana in 1891, and my family emigrated to Alberta when I was four, to escape an upcoming sheep and cattle war. We took up land on the Waterton River, locally known to all as the Kootenai River, about a mile north of the present Park boundary. Kootenai Brown, actually the first to advocate making it a National Park, lived a few miles away across the river. My major childhood passion was a craving for learning, which there was little opportunity to satisfy at that time and in that place. My brother and I occasionally got a term of school in either Mountain View or Pincher Creek, the former a Mormon Colony and the latter predominately Catholic. Neither was friendly to Protestant American immigrants, and we did not enjoy those sessions, but we did learn to read and write there. (I made a trip back there in 1958, and found the old hostilities still not quite dead.) `Kootenai' was really a mysterious character, surrounded by varying legends of the past, which he didn't bother to settle one way or the other, though it was evident enough that he was a graduate of either Oxford or Cambridge. In fact, it is not certain that his name was John Brown as he gave it, and clearly he had no respect for the English "establishment" in which he had obviously been born. As a man, he was the most extraordinary bundle of contradictions that I ever met. He had been an Indian fighter, had killed a number of them, and had an unappeasable hatred for the race, yet he had an Indian wife and several grown children by her. (My brother and I were very fond of the plump old lady, and it seemed to be mutual; the only thing we had against her was that she never learned that you were supposed to put sugar in doughnuts!) In one way or another I began to piece together a course in world thought from various books left at the ranch by travelers and tourists. These included such works as The Book of Mormon and The Arabian Nights (unexpurgated, which would hardly be considered suitable for child education) and others. I could read quite well and rapidly by the age of six, when I could get anything to read. Kootenai discovered this propensity and made me free of an enormous library he had in his log cabin, and my real education began there -- running backwards to the usual system. Every week or two I rode up to his place with a sack full of books which I exchanged for another sackful. Kootenai's library, of course, contained all the classics of the day, and I filled up on people like Dickens, de Maupassant, Dumas and all the rest. I also got my father to subscribe to the chief English magazines, such as Strand, Windsor, Pall Mall and Wide World. I came to California in 1906, unable to qualify for any grade of a California grammar school but well versed in general world thought and history. After a few tries at fitting me in somewhere, my parents saw the High School Principal, who said that entrance by examination was possible, and after talking to me said he thought he could write one that I could pass. That turned out all right. I was admitted and later graduated with all ones (A's) in my subjects, went on to Stanford and graduated in the upper ten per cent of my class. But I was way ahead of the average graduate. I was ahead of him in general knowledge and knew about a lot of things he might never even learn -- thanks to old Kootenai Brown. Sometimes I wonder whether our present educational system, which is in deep trouble, might also benefit from such education in reverse. The great trouble in it is that it is full of things the pupil is not interested in, and sees no use for. As I got it, I learned the "whys" and the relevancies first, and the nuts and bolts later. Strangely, the one thing I did not get from Kootenai's library was Theosophy. He thought it was too deep for children and might just mix their young minds up. But he did occasionally talk about it at random to adults, and from the impressions they got, old Kootenai must have been a real mixmaster himself. (No worse, however, than some Theosophical notables I need not name here.) Indeed, by echoes from these efforts, I actually conceived a distrust of the name itself. It was not until 1912, years later, that I reached the basic Theosophical principles by intensive research, then, in a curious way encountered Judge's Ocean of Theosophy and discovered how much company I had. At that point I had actually thought I had discovered the idea of reincarnation. Curious story isn't it!? At the age of 88, I cherish the hope that in my post-mortem vision I will learn just what was the karmic history of the relationship between Kootenai and myself." Victor Endersby. -------------------------------end Part 2 of 3 --------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 02:03:02 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: HCT - Sept 1992 -- Part 3 of 3 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608070302.0076517c@mail.eden.com> THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST VOL. 7 NO. 9 BOULDER, COLORADO SEPTEMBER, 1992 ------------------------Begin Part 3 of 3 ------------------- NAME CHANGE The Theosophical Study Center, meeting in Denver, chartered in 1986 as The High Country Study Center has changed its name to The Theosophical Society of Denver and continues as a Study Center chartered by T.S.A. (Wheaton). Judith Modig is secretary. QWAA REPRINT PROJECT First Series: Copies of vols. 1 and 2 should now be in hands of all subscribers. Second Series: Work on checking the Index is again underway. Index entries for the first 15 of a total of 516 pages of Pamphlets have been checked. BORIS DE ZIRKOFF TAPES AVAILABLE While a guest in Calgary, Ted Davy kindly made copies for me of two audio tapes of talks given in 1970 by Boris de Zirkoff: Incidents in the life of H.P.B. and H.P.B.: Woman and Teacher. Available from HCT, with permission, for $3.50 each, postpaid. (U.S.) Not to be published in printed form. Calendar of Events THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OF DENVER Friday Sept. 11 L.B. Hansen's home. Call 761-5925 for location. Friday Sept. 25 L.B. Hansen's home. Upcoming: Tue. Oct. 20 Call L.B. Hansen, 761-5925 or Judy, 477-4788 for details. Tony Lysy visits THE T.S. OF DENVER to talk of plans for the upcoming Parliament of World Religions, to be held in the summer of 1993 in Chicago. ERRATA: Last month we incorrectly stated that the Parliament was to be held at Wheaton. Please note correction. Time: 7:30 P.M. L.B. Hansen leads the fourth in an ongoing study of the Seven Rays. Meeting begins with meditation at 7:00 p.m. Call 761-5925 or 477-4788 for location. Dora Kunz, past president of T.S.A., (Wheaton) will visit THE T.S. OF DENVER to present a talk on "The Dynamics of Healing." Tentative location is The First Universalist Church, 4101 E. Hampden, Denver. Final location and time to be announced later. THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY OF DENVER holds regular meetings and study classes in Denver on the second and fourth Fridays monthly. THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST has the following editorial objectives: (1) To present articles and essays consistent with source theosophy, otherwise known as the Ancient Wisdom; as given by The Masters and H.P. Blavatsky, and other theosophical writers consistent with this tradition. (2) To examine contemporary ethical, religious, metaphysical, scientific and philosophical issues from the viewpoint of the source theosophical teachings. (3) To impartially examine significant events and issues in the history of the theosophical movement which have affected and shaped its present-day realities. (4) To serve as a forum for the free interchange of ideas and commentary and to facilitate various projects in furtherance of Theosophical principles. Annual subscriptions renew in June. Complimentary copies and abstracts of back issues are available on request to: Dick Slusser, 140 S. 33rd. St., Boulder, Colo. 80303-3426. Tel. (303) 494-5482. THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, ISSN 1060-4766 is published monthly for $7.50 per year by Richard Slusser, 140 S. 33rd St., Bldr, CO. 80303-3426. POSTMASTER: Send address changes to: THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST 140 S. 33rd St., Boulder, CO. 80303-3426 Second Class Postage Paid at Boulder, CO. 13 ----------------- end of Part 3 of 3 --------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 02:05:56 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608070556.0074a330@mail.eden.com> At 02:08 AM 6/8/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-06-08 00:28:48 EDT, you write: > >>Here in Texas, USA, last year they passed a law permitting citizens to carry >>concealed weapons. >> >>..........doss > >I have often carried one myself and I'm alive to be on this board because of >it. > >Chuck the Heretic > I have lived in Texas over two decades and has never owned, carried or even touched a gun. I am alive and well. Everything is ok so long you don't go to certain risky parts of the city. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 02:09:45 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608070945.007406a8@mail.eden.com> At 02:15 AM 6/8/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: > >On Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:21:23 -0400 (EDT) M K Ramadoss >writes: > >>At 08:39 PM 6/7/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >>>In message <339937C1.70B683F6@earthlink.net>, >>apriorip@earthlink.net >writes > >>>>I agree, of course, that there so-called "militias" of all types >>>>...some racist, some thugs, ...but the vast majority are good. > >>>Good for what??? Here in the UK all handguns are now illegal except >>>.22, and they are about to go. Any other kind of gun needs a >>>licence, they are hard to get, and storage is strictly controlled. >>> >>>We don't miss them. The police are occasionally armed for special >>>duties in the public interest. That's enough. >>> >>>Alan > >>Here in Texas, USA, last year they passed a law permitting citizens to >>carry concealed weapons. >> >>..........doss > >I've heard that Switzerland is a very safe place to live, since everyone >is forced to have guns. Maybe England has succeeded in keeping almost >everyone from having guns, which would have the same result, but the most >insecure combination is typified by the United States, where there are >too many criminals with guns and too much gun control, and where the >worst crime statistics are where there is the most gun control, whereas >those cities which have followed Switzerland's example have very low >crime rates. > I am not so sure if there is correlation between gun control and actual crime using guns. In India, British practice is followed and legally it is almost impossible to own a gun. But on the other hand, in the two decades, the situation has become worse. Illegal ownership of guns is on the rise and so is the incidence of killing and destruction using homemade bombs. Looks like there is an epidemic of violence around the world. .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 05:40:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: HCT - 9/92 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608104039.00754bdc@mail.eden.com> The High Country Theosophist issue of Sept 1992 which was posted a couple of hours ago was very informative especially on the analysis of the background information relating to the Canadian Section. In the past, it is very difficult even to know of any developments in other sections. I believe that when one of the sections in Europe was terminated, it was years before a neigboring country knew about it. Each section kept unto itself and there was no way for cross transmission of information between members of sections. So it could be years before members of other sections find out any developments. Such compartmentalized information, though not deliberate and planned, effectively helped the administrations. (Sometime ago when details of some administrative matters were asked, the response was that the matters are too complicated so that the unlettered and uninitiated membership will not be able to comprehend and only those properly anointed will be able to decipher the issues -- which is nothing but insult to the intelligence and ability of many of the membership) All that is changing with Internet much to the discomfort to the hierarchy of many organizations used to do business the old fashion way, pencil, paper and snailmail. Now anyone having access to Internet anywhere in the world can post a msg to keep the rest of the world know of important developments -- whether good, bad or indifferent. The only restraint which may prevent someone from posting such information is perhaps some legal implications or some direct or indirect or subtle pressure that can and sometimes does get applied. It is my hope that we will be able to see more of the back issues of HCT posted here. ..................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 10:15:40 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: High Country Theosophist - Correction on Subscription Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970608151540.00dc44ec@mail.eden.com> Hi, Here is a correction on the subscription rate. ......doss =========================================================== >Return-Path: dslusser@indra.com >Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 05:17:58 -0600 >From: dslusser >Organization: The High Country Theosophist >To: M K Ramadoss >Subject: Re: High Country Theosophist - Sept 1992 >References: <2.2.32.19970608063432.00dc84c4@mail.eden.com> > >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> Hello >> >> In response to a request, Dick Slusser, the Editor of The High Country >> Theosophist has made the September 1992 issue available for posting on the >> theos-l. All of us should be profoundly thankful to Dick for letting HCT be >> posted on theos-l. >> >> It is hoped that posting will help many theos-l subscribers in the USA >> and especially outside USA be able to read the publication for free. This >> will be appreciated particularly by those who cannot afford to purchase them >> and also for those in some of the countries, especially in the former Soviet >> Union and third world, where access to US Dollars is very tough and >> relatively very expensive. >> >> It is hoped that other issues of HCT (including the back issues) will be >> posted on theos-l in future. >> >> Any comments may please be posted on theos-l and copied to Dick Slusser at >> >> dslusser@indra.com >> >> .........MK Ramadoss >> >> CC: Dick Slusser >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST has the following editorial objectives: >> >> (1) To present articles and essays consistent with source theosophy, >> otherwise known as the Ancient Wisdom; as given by The Masters and H.P. >> Blavatsky, and other theosophical writers consistent with this tradition. >> >> (2) To examine contemporary ethical, religious, metaphysical, scientific >> and philosophical issues from the viewpoint of the source theosophical >> teachings. >> >> 3) To impartially examine significant events and issues in the history of >> the theosophical movement which have affected and shaped its present-day >> realities. >> >> (4) To serve as a forum for the free interchange of ideas and commentary >> and to facilitate various projects in furtherance of Theosophical principles. >> >> Annual subscriptions renew in June. Complimentary copies and abstracts of >> back issues are available on request to: >> >> Dick Slusser, 140 S. 33rd. St., >> Boulder, Colo. 80303-3426. >> Tel. (303) 494-5482. >> THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST, ISSN 1060-4766 >> is published monthly for $7.50 per year by Richard Slusser, > >Correction please: The $7.50/yr price applied to 1992. Since then the >content of the HCT HAS been increased from 16 to 20-24 pages and the >smail subscription is $9.00 (US), $11.00 (Foreign Surface), $18.00 >(Foreign via air). However, free yearly subscriptions are available on >written request to those for whom the cost is a hardship. > >> 140 S. 33rd St., Bldr, CO. 80303-3426. >> POSTMASTER: Send address changes to: >> THE HIGH COUNTRY THEOSOPHIST >> 140 S. 33rd St., Boulder, CO. 80303-3426 >> Periodicals Postage Paid at Boulder, CO. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 09:11:05 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Year 2000 (astrology/planets) Message-ID: <339ABD5D.6C5D@earthlink.net> Year 2000 (astrology/planets) [from newsgroup discussions] " The Jupiter/Saturn conjunction which occurs on May 28, 2000, reflects dramatic economic, and consequently value judgement de-structurization. Natural disasters have a way of quickly dissolving status (Capricorn) barriers, which is necessary for the next mutation of conjunctions (Jupiter/Saturn) in the air signs (the trinity of idea interaction)." "Jupiter and Saturn are the only planets in Earth and are squared by Uranus in Aquarius. ... Pioneers discover information that dramatically alters world perspective (Pluto). There will be great economic destructurization which will neccessitate power decentralization. Our greatest difficulties will come from governmental dissaray and the final recognition that we have given far to much power to those in authority. New aspects of the higher self and mind will have to be put to use by each individual......The trine of the Sun to Neptune in the Air element promises some marvelous and exciting artistic and spiritual enlightenment and is the way out of some difficult dilemmas." "The means for the upheavel of the year 2000 may very well be in place...as J/S squares Uranus...the "00" software legacy code will be having its effects...interestingly this software programming began in the late 50's/early sixties when J/S where applying opposition to Uranus." Regards, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html *** (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 18:59:27 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: self indulgence Message-ID: <199706090017.UAA05399@ultra1.dreamscape.com> ldon, Please tell me your secret re how you know when you're pointing due North. I think I'm going in the right direction, but I'm never quite sure what it is or where it is. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 21:09:03 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <339B57AF.7A71@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > In India, British practice is followed and legally it is almost impossible > to own a gun. But on the other hand, in the two decades, the situation has > become worse. Illegal ownership of guns is on the rise and so is the > incidence of killing and destruction using homemade bombs. Looks like there > is an epidemic of violence around the world. The problem is that gun control in the United States, AS CURRENTLY WRITTEN AND APPLIED, does not keep the guns out of the hands of career criminals; they are designed to keep the guns out of the hands of otherwise law-abiding citizens. Criminals, assured a body of unarmed victims, don't think twice about using guns in areas of high gun control. Crime is low where neither criminal nor general populace are armed, and also where both criminal and general populace are armed. Crime is high when you have a combination of an armed criminal and an unarmed general populace. Also, the picture of police has changed, while many of the laws surrounding them have not. The police were originally to aid in the self-defense of the citizens, not to substitute for the self-defense. In areas with high gun-control, the theory is that the police are there as a substitute for the self-defense of the citizens, but the laws governing the police do not indicate this. The police are not designed to prevent crimes; they are designed to apprehend criminals after the crime has been committed. Case after case has shown that the police have no legal obligation to prevent a crime from taking place. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 23:11:55 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: 1900 KH Letter to Annie Besant Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970609041155.00693e14@mail.eden.com> The full unredacted 1900 KH Letter to Annie Besant was first published by the Eclectic Theosophist, I believe some time in 1960s or 70s. Does anyone know if the unredacted letter was ever published by TPH (Adyar, London, or Wheaton etc.) or was it ever published in Adyar Theosophist or any other National Section Publication? Any historian who can throw light on the above? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 97 12:01:51 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Ominous pattern Message-ID: <199706091601.MAA11826@leo.vsla.edu> I just finished going through a section of my library's shelves with a list of items that haven't circulated in the last 18 months. Having gone through 3.5 sections, which is about 700 books, I only found a few that had been stolen: Quotations for the New Age Karma, the Great Teacher Cosmopolitan's Guide to Fortune Telling Astrology in Modern Language Crystals Secrets of the Face (how to read character) The subjects covered in the sections thus far scanned include computers, unexplained phenomena (UFOs, Bigfoot, etc.), journalism, libraries, philosophy, dreams, and psychology. Yet the *only* books stolen were New Age/occult titles. What does this say about the kind of people who read them? I know, it could've been just one person and thus no basis for hasty generalization. But every library I've worked in has had the same problem: New Age and occult books are among the most frequently stolen. This suggests to me that the paranoid fundamentalists may have a point-- there really is something evil in the character of people who are attracted to popular New Age stuff, e.g. crystals, astrology, fortunetelling? Comments? Why this pattern? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 09:41:31 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: Ominous pattern Message-ID: <339C161A.4BBE@earthlink.net> Ah and invitation to much humor ...it could be their karma to learn to be honest! :-) ...or is it the library's karma.. ... or is it fundamentalists trying to remove books from circulation... ... a candid camera would be ver useful ... Cheers, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 12:28:50 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Ominous pattern Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970609172850.00c3e744@mail.eden.com> At 12:02 PM 6/9/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > >I just finished going through a section of my library's shelves >with a list of items that haven't circulated in the last 18 >months. Having gone through 3.5 sections, which is about 700 >books, I only found a few that had been stolen: > >Quotations for the New Age >Karma, the Great Teacher >Cosmopolitan's Guide to Fortune Telling >Astrology in Modern Language >Crystals >Secrets of the Face (how to read character) > >The subjects covered in the sections thus far scanned include >computers, unexplained phenomena (UFOs, Bigfoot, etc.), >journalism, libraries, philosophy, dreams, and psychology. Yet >the *only* books stolen were New Age/occult titles. What does >this say about the kind of people who read them? > >I know, it could've been just one person and thus no basis for >hasty generalization. But every library I've worked in has had >the same problem: New Age and occult books are among the most >frequently stolen. This suggests to me that the paranoid >fundamentalists may have a point-- there really is something >evil in the character of people who are attracted to popular >New Age stuff, e.g. crystals, astrology, fortunetelling? > >Comments? Why this pattern? > I don't know why books are stolen. Some of my friends and myself routinely pass on the books to any one interested after we are through with them. I retain only a very few books after reading them. ....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 12:34:57 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Ominous pattern Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609123457.0098ca30@imagiware.com> Paul: >I just finished going through a section of my library's shelves >with a list of items that haven't circulated in the last 18 >months. Having gone through 3.5 sections, which is about 700 >books, I only found a few that had been stolen: ... >the *only* books stolen were New Age/occult titles. What does >this say about the kind of people who read them? I suspect that the books are more likely taken by Fundamentalists, hoping to keep people from reading them. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:25:24 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Response to Dennis Message-ID: <199706092129.RAA05358@NetGSI.com> >...However, I have a different view about two of his >recent posts regarding dreams and celibacy. Namely: > > 1. Based upon my having lived a lot of years and, consequently, >having experienced a lot of dreams I do not agree that "dreams are the Higher >Self communicating to us ...". If this were so, every dream would be a very >significant vision or even revelation. But the fact of the matter is... Actually Dennis, I tend to agree with you. The idea that dreams are communications from the Self was Jung's idea, and is not entirely theosophical. They *can* be, but only on rare occasions--what Jung himself refers to as Big Dreams. HPB gives us a good occult look at dreams in Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge, in which she delineates a wide variety of possible dreams. >IMHO dreams are simply the >brain's method of sorting through and filing away information destined for >permanent storage. To use an analogy, it is comparable to "cleaning up" or >"defragging" a computer hard drive. Possibly this is true with some, but certainly not all. My feeling is that at least some are actually astral traveling experiences that we have in what the Tibetan Buddhists call our Dream Body. >My systematic investigation of numerous >dreams led me inescapably to the following conclusions: > (a) All of them had some connection with reality --- >generally with recent events even though they seldom accurately >"mirrored" those events. It is interesting that you equate "reality" with the physical. I don't. > (b) A few of them turned out to be premonitions of future >events HPB gives this as one possible type of dream. It also equates to a Big Dream. > (c) Everyone dreams during extended periods of >unconsciousness (i.e. normal ... Agreed. My own brother-in-law swears he never dreams, but I am sure that he simply doesn't remember them. Modern psychology says that we all have REM dreams. > 2. Regarding celibacy, the essential thing is not to sublimate or >deny our physical nature but to learn how to control and rise above it. Agreed, there is a fine line somewhere between sublimation and transcendence. >For the Biblically inclined, try 1st Corinthians 13:11 ("When I was a child, I >spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I >became a man, I put away childish things.") If you are equating sex with childish behavior, then I am not sure I can agree with you. Sex is only transcended when the physical body is transcended, at the death of a jivamukti. Celibacy is not the same thing as transcending sexual feelings. Control is step one (i.e., we can control our behaviors), but transcendence is another whole step. And, I am not sure why anyone would want to do this anyway? Sexual feeling (the desire for bliss and unity) comes with the human body, almost like food and air. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 17:35:05 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Ominous pattern Message-ID: <339C7709.4CB9@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > journalism, libraries, philosophy, dreams, and psychology. Yet > the *only* books stolen were New Age/occult titles. What does > this say about the kind of people who read them? > > I know, it could've been just one person and thus no basis for > hasty generalization. But every library I've worked in has had > the same problem: New Age and occult books are among the most > frequently stolen. This suggests to me that the paranoid > fundamentalists may have a point-- there really is something > evil in the character of people who are attracted to popular > New Age stuff, e.g. crystals, astrology, fortunetelling? I think it's a result of the appropriation of the "New Age" concept by the post-modernists. If there is no such thing as objective reality, and all morality is based on what is pleasing to the ego, then the only reason not to steal is a fear of being caught. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:48:41 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Oath of the Abyss Message-ID: <199706092150.RAA06126@NetGSI.com> >To enjoy life a little bit does not lead to a "slippery slope", >downwards to compulsive self-indulgence and general destruction >of one's life. On the other hand, in chelaship, latent karma >is awakened and one's outer life is turned into chaos and turmoil. > >One's life has changed from calm waters to something like >white-water rafting. Exceptional skill is required to stay in >control -- or to go the course without being overcome by >external events -- and continual alertness and skillful means >are necessary. Agreed Eldon, as you are coming from the TS viewpoint. But there is another viewpoint, equally effective, easier to begin, but just as hard to maintain. I am speaking of the Oath of the Abyss which magicians take at a rather high level in their development. To do this, you simply take a vow to agree to view each and every event that happens to you as if it were a direct communication from God. You must act as if God himself is watching your every move and thought, and is directing your path on a continuous basis. This can be done very effectively without any particular belief in God and has nothing to do with religion. Here God can be considered as a Mahaguru or disembodied omniscient Nirmanakaya if you like. This makes the everyday mundane things that daily happen to us take on inner or secret meanings, and makes us watch what we do. Our life becomes meaningful and everything we do has purpose. This is a Western equivalent to chelaship, where the guru is your own Higher Self, including your conscience. As with chelaship, all hell breaks lose, and you discover many things going on in your daily life that you never noticed before. It is a very hard vow to keep, and like chelaship, should not be taken lightly. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:37:29 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Ominous pattern Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > I think it's a result of the appropriation of the "New Age" concept by > the post-modernists. If there is no such thing as objective reality, and > all morality is based on what is pleasing to the ego, then the only > reason not to steal is a fear of being caught. Well now *that's* really rich. Post-modernism is a very curious phenomena ... its a school of philosophy that actually has far far more people critisizing it than there are people working in it. And the criticisms it inspires are quite often humourously irrational - people just *love* to take shots at it. And its blamed for all manner of current social ills ... but I think that seeing it blamed for the disappearance of New Age books from libraries has got to set some sort of new standard. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 19:15:42 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Ominous pattern Message-ID: <339C8E9E.B54@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > I think it's a result of the appropriation of the "New Age" concept by > > the post-modernists. If there is no such thing as objective reality, and > > all morality is based on what is pleasing to the ego, then the only > > reason not to steal is a fear of being caught. > Well now *that's* really rich. Post-modernism is a very curious > phenomena ... its a school of philosophy that actually has far far more > people critisizing it than there are people working in it. And the > criticisms it inspires are quite often humourously irrational - people > just *love* to take shots at it. And its blamed for all manner of current > social ills ... but I think that seeing it blamed for the disappearance of > New Age books from libraries has got to set some sort of new standard. Post-modernism is like a hammer. It is useful for some things, such as the analysis of art and literature. Unfortunately, just as using a hammer on a dirty window will only make it clearer by making it useless, post-modernist analysis on things such as science, mathematics, and history makes them useless. The post-modernist belief that each person creates his or her own reality, and the ego is supreme, is the basis of the alteration of the New Age from a self-less movement where the betterment of humanity is key, to a self-ish movement where personal empowerment is key. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 01:41:19 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Ominous pattern Message-ID: In message <199706091601.MAA11826@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >I know, it could've been just one person and thus no basis for >hasty generalization. But every library I've worked in has had >the same problem: New Age and occult books are among the most >frequently stolen. This suggests to me that the paranoid >fundamentalists may have a point-- there really is something >evil in the character of people who are attracted to popular >New Age stuff, e.g. crystals, astrology, fortunetelling? > >Comments? Why this pattern? Mostly young wannabees with aspiring egos is my best guess. Maybe that's a kind of 'evil.' Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:07:43 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970608031935.0076ccd0@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >Here in Texas, USA, last year they passed a law permitting citizens to carry >concealed weapons. > >..........doss Shame. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 18:55:32 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: Sorry Chuck (and all) Message-ID: <339CB414.3EFC@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hello to all Chuck: It was not my intention on making a bad joke on Jaqi's problem. Is the thing that,when i find something so terrible as that, i get somewhat nervous, and try to make things not to look as terrible as they are. but,for work,is like the same when you make those terrible jokes on the South American dictatorships and we said the classic joke of the cannibal or the wicked soldier...is an escape. Here in Mexico, we are experts on doing black jokes...for the same political situation, i think. Forgive me (and all) if i said very stupid things in this letter...i don't know, i'm somewhat embarrased. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 01:48:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Oath of the Abyss Message-ID: In message <199706092150.RAA06126@NetGSI.com>, Gerald Schueler writes >To do this, you simply take a vow to agree to view each and >every event that happens to you as if it were a direct communication >from God. You must act as if God himself is watching your every >move and thought, and is directing your path on a continuous basis. >This can be done very effectively without any particular belief in >God and has nothing to do with religion. Here God can be considered >as a Mahaguru or disembodied omniscient Nirmanakaya if you like. >This makes the everyday mundane things that daily happen to us >take on inner or secret meanings, and makes us watch what we >do. Our life becomes meaningful and everything we do has purpose. >This is a Western equivalent to chelaship, where the guru >is your own Higher Self, including your conscience. As with >chelaship, all hell breaks lose, and you discover many things >going on in your daily life that you never noticed before. It is >a very hard vow to keep, and like chelaship, should not be taken >lightly. IMHO, this is better undertaken *without* a vow - it is much harder to keep to, but has less kick-back, while every action taken with this approach as something to aspire to is a *voluntary* action taken on the path to Understanding, Knowledge and Wisdom. Respectfully, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:30:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Sorry Chuck (and all) Message-ID: <970610003036_2088224789@emout10.mail.aol.com> Estrella, No apology required. I usually do find something funny in things that most people don't so it's only natural that you would expect me to find one in this as well so I wasn't at all offended. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:24:51 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Theos-L Digest 1075 and Gerry S. post Message-ID: <970610132445_-1329280112@emout07.mail.aol.com> I agree with Gerry's views (on dreams, celibacy, etc.) in most respects and perhaps, with a little clarification, in all respects. Regarding , for the purpose of my Digest comments I was referring to physical reality. Yes, yes, I know, impermanent things are Maya, an illusion. Therefore, there isn't any physical . But, in my view, even illusions are, for all practical purposes, "real." That is, they are temporarily "real" in the form of "illusions." I think we are into symantics here. I did not intend to infer in my post that "the only reality is the physical plane." Reality, in my judgment, is All That Is ... including (at least temporarily) all aspects of Maya. Regarding the Bible verse quoted (1Co 13:11), I feel the true meaning of what Paul is saying is: as we evolve we don't so much conquer or destroy certain elements of our nature (such as sexual desire) but, rather, we transcend them. And as for sexual desire being "healthy", the reality is that any desire that can best be fulfilled on the physical plane will bring us back to this plane again and again until we either fulfill that desire completely ... or, as I think Paul suggests, we transcend it completely. It is we who must make the choices ... and endure the consequences of those choices. With regard to dreams, I concur that some (the "exceptions to the rule") reflect happenings on higher planes. But most of them, at least in my experience, seem to focus on the earth plane. Gerry's posts appear to me to reflect an unusually deep understanding of issues such as those currently being discussed. I look forward to reading more from him. Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 21:55:09 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: The coming of the Arhats Message-ID: <19970610215506740.AAA400@meta.treknet.is> >Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 22:16:21 -0500 >From: M K Ramadoss > >>Jim, - tell them to wake up. >>The Arhats will be with us in the next century, and then they will give us >>more teaching than ever before. And that will in time lead to this: "a Buddha like myself....... He shall lead an Order of Brethren numbering many thousands, even as I do now lead an Order of Brethren numbering many hundreds." > The question I have is whether the teachings that have been given by HPB >has been effective used up by the humanity. If not, I donot see how more >teachings is going to help the humanity. > >..........doss My thought about your question is: The Teaching given to us by The Brotherhood has not been effectively used. There have been around, to many boomerangs of irritation and non-recognition, between working individuals and Ashram-groups. This has seriously harmed the work. And also; many of the Ashram-groups have not been able to reach the physical plane, as was planned early in this century. The war period was the delaying factor. As you know, the wars were, and are also in the other worlds. The presence of the Arhats with us is a matter of great importance. It is my opinion that there are now in formation groups, that will be in fit position to cooperate and work together as will be needed in the coming decades. These groups will have knowledge of the best, in esoteric studies. These groups will not be authority bounded, like they are so many today. We must realize that there is no perfect esoteric teaching available. And that what is ahead will be more comprehensive than what has been given. Let us therefore, "pick up knowledge as bees pick up honey." Let us not waste energy and time in criticism and arguments. To reason and analyze, that is a different matter. *** I have a question in mind. How do you define the word Arhat.? Definition of the word varies between writers. Also: >> It is hoped that posting will help many theos-l subscribers in the USA >> and especially outside USA be able to read the publication for free. This >> will be appreciated particularly by those who cannot afford to purchase them >> and also for those in some of the countries, especially in the former Soviet >> Union and third world, where access to US Dollars is very tough and >> relatively very expensive. Do you have some contacts in Russia.? The Russians students of Theosophy would welcome cooperation with students in other countries. They have actually been seeking for such cooperation. Things have been made difficult for them, by groups pretending to be Theosophists, trying to profit by asking for financial support. The study group that I work with, has given support and co-operation to groups in Russia. We have been planning a combined news-letter and a study-list. The plan is to have that e-mail list in action, in the fall. It will be Global and open for all. Sveinn Freyr PS. I will be in the upland most of the time in the summer. Therefore I may miss some mail. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 02:04:51 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: More Stolen Secrets Message-ID: HPB talked about blinds (half-truths) to confuse the profane. From my reading the SECRET DOCTRINE is one big blind except if one has some intuitive connection. That is why I have not had the interest of who said what, and what the sources were. Of course, this is a very strange approach. The opposite of say, K Paul Johnson who has devoted a great deal of enery in tracking down the historical sources. I saw a biography of Sir Richard Burton on cable. It was very interesting. There seems to be a lot of evidence for some hoaxes to attract attention. He is most noted for bringing the KAMA SUTRA to the west. I sure many were shocked. I don't think it is a very practical book, but is an attempt for spiritual yoga using the sex act more as metaphor. Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 01:00:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: More Stolen Secrets Message-ID: <970611005856_1176391677@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-10 23:07:42 EDT, you write: >I saw a biography of Sir Richard Burton on cable. It was very interesting. >There seems to be a lot of evidence for some hoaxes to attract attention. >He is most noted for bringing the KAMA SUTRA to the west. I sure many were >shocked. I don't think it is a very practical book, but is an attempt for >spiritual yoga using the sex act more as metaphor. > > Actually, the Kama Sutra is a very practical book if you happen to be a contortionist who has practiced Hatha Yoga all your life. Me, my back would go out in five seconds or I'd end up on crutches like poor Bill Clinton (fell down the stairs, yeah right!). Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:37:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The coming of the Arhats Message-ID: <970611113521_-1596708236@emout18.mail.aol.com> Why do I hear the music from the Twilight Zone playing in the background? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:41:39 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: ominousness Message-ID: <199706111759.NAA02596@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Bart, your statement makes me wonder whether creating your own reality must necessairily exclude selflessness. I'm a firm believer in creating my own reality. Matter of fact I'm out to adopt beliefs, realities, that please me, and make me feel good, else I won't adopt them. But my view of the world includes service to my fellow man. It's trouble I enjoy the most, and I've often wondered whether I'd bother with trying to be selfless if it didn't give me some sort of satisfaction. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:46:29 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Sorry Chuck Message-ID: <199706111804.OAA05823@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Estrella, I didn't catch your black joke, but if you were trying to make Jaqi feel better with a black joke, I think that's quite a propos. It's one way to try to make her feel better, and I think if that's what you were trying to do Chuck should apologize for not being sharp enough (which figures) to catch it. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:36:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <970611153427_1241873400@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-10 04:30:04 EDT, you write: > >Here in Texas, USA, last year they passed a law permitting citizens to carry > >concealed weapons. > > > >..........doss > > Shame. > > Alan Alan, What could ever be shameful about people being able to decide for themselves whether they can carry the means to defend themselves? (There are already laws, with which I agree, against committing aggression against another regardless of whether one uses a gun or one's fist.) Personally, I find it outrageous that others (the gov't) feel that they have the right to decide whether I may or may not have the ability to defend my own life, family, and property. IMHO, no one has the right to make that decision for another. Just a passing thought. I find gun control laws (and all laws that regulate the possession of "things") as an interesting manifestation of the human obsession with "things" vs. causes and the mistaken idea that, by eliminating or regulating the availability of a "thing", a certain problem will be solved. Drug laws are another example of this. By saying this, I'm trying to tie this in more closely with theosophical issues, but haven't done a very good job of it. Anyone who's willing, though, please feel free to take this nucleus of an idea and run with it. ;-D Lynn Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:23:16 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Reincarnation and Karma Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970611202316.00cb4030@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is a view of Krishnaji on the subject of Reincarnation and Karma. Hope it interests some. .......................doss =================================================== REINCARNATION AND KARMA Question: Do you believe in reincarnation and karma? Krishnamurti: First of all, I have no belief. To me a man who is living like the waters that are running, that are not stationary, has no belief. It is only the man who is stationary, that is not living intensely, that has got principles and beliefs. This does not mean that you should go to the other extreme, that you should live a sensual life. It points, on the contrary, to intensity of living. That is just a part of the question. Now what do we mean by reincarnation? As it is understood, it is the 'I' - Krishnamurti - because he cannot live fully now, divinely, supremely, harmoniously, he must come back next life and take another form, and so go on through a series of lives until he arrives. That is the idea of reincarnation. Surely, isn't it? At least let the pundits agree. (Laughter) Now, you want to know if I believe in that or not. This is not a subtle answer. I want to show you something different. I neither disbelieve nor believe. Do not think I am a clever man or a humbug, that I do not answer this question straight. I want to put something quite differently; then you will see why I am not answering directly, categorically. What is this thing that we call the 'I'? To me, it is nothing else but the center of conflict, the center of disharmony. Otherwise we are not conscious of the 'I'. When we live, when we enjoy, we think deeply and feel tremendously, harmoniously, we are not thinking of the 'I'. It is only when we come into conflict that there is a resistance, there is a hindrance and we become conscious as Krishnamurti. That is, the 'I' is nothing else but memory which is the result of attachment. If we live a day completely, supremely, we don't think about it. It is over. But if we live that day partially, with conflict in which there is resistance, in which there is toil, then we remember it. So in like manner, where there is conflict, there is memory, of past or future, which creates the "I". That is, I have certain experiences, certain reactions, and I meet every experience, I meet life with those reactions, with those memories. So when I meet life or when I meet you as an individual, I do so with my memories, with my idiosyncrasies, with my experiences. I do not meet you fully. Therefore in not meeting you fully, there is a conflict, and out of that conflict the idea of "I" is born. If I with a background of a certain color, and you with a background of a certain other color meet, we never meet fully, we always meet at an angle, partially. Therefore there is conflict, that conflict creates memory in me, and the many series of conflicts with the many layers of memories go to constitute the 'I' otherwise there is no "I". I know you have read the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, and all the sacred books. I am not being sarcastic. But please forget all that for the moment, and try to understand what I am saying. The "I" is nothing else but many layers of memory. When we say we must be made perfect through time, it means we must perfect conflict, we must perfect resistance, we must perfect selfishness. Do you see the significance, the absurdity of it? And so we say, let us have this idea of reincarnation. That is, we say by perpetuating conflict through many lives, we shall come to the realization of truth. I am putting it from my point of view, which is that the 'I' is nothing else but a series of cravings, and you cannot perfect cravings, you cannot perfect selfishness. You will always remain selfish. When you ask me, "Do you believe in reincarnation?" it means, "Do you believe in the perpetuation and postponement of selfishness?" That is, you say you have not the opportunity now for intensity of living, so you must have a greater opportunity, a next life to complete that which you are not doing now. Now, I say, don't look to the future, because the future is nothing else but the incompleteness of the understanding in the present. A man who understands has no future. To him the eternity is now. But the moment he does not understand, he wants a tomorrow. Now what is it that prevents you from understanding? I am not concerned with reincarnation, whether or not it is a law or whether it is true. To me it is unessential. What is essential is to see what prevents you from understanding completely in the present. Then you see the question quite differently. What is the good of your telling me that I shall be well fed next life if I am hungry now? If I am a slave, if I am blind, if I am suffering, what is the good of your telling me that I shall be happy the next life? What is the good of your telling me when I see so much injustice in the world, such monstrous cruelty, that it is reincarnation, because in my last birth I did a painful thing, therefore I am paying for it? What value is it? Please don't think I am decrying reincarnation. I am not talking of reincarnation at all. To me it is unimportant. What is important is to find out how I can live completely with unity of thinking and feeling in the present. In that harmony is divinity. Then, there is-the idea of karmaÄnot what the pundits and the books sayÄbut I am telling you what I think. Karma is incomplete action in which there is time. Karma is time in which action is not completed. Do not say this is what the Bhagavad Gita says. Leave that for the moment. Please try to find out. If I do not complete an act, then I must have time to complete it. That time which is conflict is karma. Therefore, karma is nothing else to me but conflict created through memory, and that conflict is born when mind and heart have crystallized themselves in conformity. So karma is the same as an incomplete act, is the same as the idea of 'I', with its memories. So as long as there is the idea of 'I', which is born out of conflict, there must be karma; that is, there must be an incomplete act. You see, it is awfully simple. My mind through tradition, through heredity, through racial customs, habits, ideals, and so on, is crippled; my heart is smothered and therefore I cannot complete the act. If my mind is prejudiced, is pursuing an ideal, is craving, naturally I cannot complete the act, I cannot live wholly; that -crippled mind creates conflict. Out of that conflict is born memory which I call 'I'. Don't concern yourself with whether there is reincarnation or not; you can find in this life the whole significance of living. I say, what creates time are your mind and heart which are caught up in ideas, ideals, conformity, consolation, fear and so on. These create conflict which in turn creates the idea of time. So become aware that your mind is running away in search of consolation. Do not try to stop yourself from running away, but become aware that you are running; then you will see how quickly it stops of its own accord. Do not fight fear; do not try to become courageous at all when you are afraidÄwhich is another form of fear, only running from this to that. You have not understood this; therefore, it pursues you to that. Do not discipline your mind to gain courage, but be conscious, be fully aware that you are afraid. To become aware is to become aware both with your mind and heart, not merely with your intellect. What happens when you are fully aware that you are afraid, when you are so aware with your mind and heart, you immediately see the cause of what is giving you fear? The moment you know what is hindering you, it is over, you are free of it. That is the highest value of spirituality; that is, spiritual, not what qualities you have and have notÄbut to be so rich and to live so intensely in the present without the conflict of the past or the future. Therefore you will not inquire whether there is reincarnation or not; you are no longer concerned with time, for the moment you are concerned with time, the moment you are interested in time, you but prolong and postpone that which can be completed now. Karachi, Pakistan. Fourth Public Lecture, Feb. 14, 1933 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:27:02 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Sorry Chuck Message-ID: <199706112127.PAA02588@mailmx.micron.net> Liesel wrote to Estrella: >I didn't catch your black joke, but if you were trying to make >Jaqi feel better with a black joke, I think that's quite a propos. It's one >way to try to make her feel better, and I think if that's what you were >trying to do Chuck should apologize for not being sharp enough (which >figures) to catch it. Liesel, go girl!!! And I thought today was going to be a bad day. . . :-) Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 21:44:07 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Post-modernism and Victorian theosophy Message-ID: Post-modernism is like a hammer. It is useful for some things, such as the analysis of art and literature. Unfortunately, just as using a hammer on a dirty window will only make it clearer by making it useless, post-modernist analysis on things such as science, mathematics, and history makes them useless. The post-modernist belief that each person creates his or her own reality, and the ego is supreme, is the basis of the alteration of the New Age from a self-less movement where the betterment of humanity is key, to a self-ish movement where personal empowerment is key. Bart Lidofsky ------------------------------ Keith: I am not sure I (or anyone) really understands philisophical schools, but we seem to have to give them names like : 1. New age 2. Post-modernism 3. Anthroposophy 4. THeosophy 5. Ne0-platonism 6. Pagan 7. Wiccan 8. Chritstian and so on ..... I certainly am not sure I understand post-modern analysis as opposed to classical HPB Victorian type theosophy, but Bart, you got your lid back onsky here about selfishness vs. unselfishness as a key to our current dillema. Things like TV news and the internet keep us in a strange immediate contact, yet strangely separate (as has been discussed before). It has been easy for me to take pot shots at people, make cheap jokes, take out my petty irritations in this forum as opposed to trying to raise my consciousness daily to a high level through meditation BEFORE I speak. The point I am getting at is that so many cults like HEAVEN'S GATE have a certain appeal because they reveal a certain exhaustion with the physical plane and physical VEHICLES (their favorite term). The HG people were definitely post-modern in the sense that they had LEARNED ALL THEIR LESSONS ON THIS PLANE (I heard this 100 times as an their excuse for suicide) and were ready as more developed beings to attract the Masters in the UFO and go to new worlds to learn new lessons. Thus the old style virtues of a WORLD TEACHER as AB and Leadbeatter had hoped Krishnimurti would be, were already superceded by the necessities of living in the 20th century with its "souless" riches., mechanized society and crowded population centers. Jesus came not to win a war, or save the world, but save men from a "soulessness". This seems to be the theme of the Western saviour even when in Eastern garb. The East want enlightenment, the West wants some kind of MOVEMENT to other states of consciousness, in UFO's, to other realms, planets, states of being, serphira, globes etc. What does this have to do with stealing books from the library? Well, the mindset seems to put personal empowerment, indeed, beyond the social good. Yet you have strange throwbacks to a primitive revenge thinking as seen in Timothy McVeigh. Here is a failed idealist turned monster. If he had charisma, he might have become a militia leader or Hitler type. There are a few about. Instead he took a simple direct approach. What he did was totally cowardly, and unforgiveable on a simple human plane. Yet many seem to project their psychological problems and failure of the failure of modern systems like the military and the Welfare State. HPB didn't have to deal with the problems of Marxiam and welfarism looming on the horizon. Victorian England was notriously cruel as documented by CHarles DIckens. Yet we have to deal with a certain feeling of spiritual ENTITLEMENT. We paid into the spiriutal system with meditation, study of the SD and all the other difficult texts, not to mention to dues to conferences and organizations and gurus. Shouldn't we feel it is our DUE to have an immenant apotheosis of the planet, if not just and individual here and there. Are do a lot of us just have egg on our faces????? Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:12:19 -0400 (EDT) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: More Stolen Secrets Message-ID: <970611190843_272562169@emout20.mail.aol.com> Keith writes--> << HPB talked about blinds (half-truths) to confuse the profane. From my reading the SECRET DOCTRINE is one big blind except if one has some intuitive connection. That is why I have not had the interest of who said what, and what the sources were. >> Richard Ihle writes--> I agree with you, Keith. One of the reasons I continue to harp on the "Big T" theme is that it tends to put the big nail in HPB's coffin rather than the little nail which can be pried off by an individual who has a little intuition (and just in general is a good s(S)elf-observer). Our fine, departed friend Alexis used to talk about "process theosophy." Unfortunately, there doesn't seem much process left once ~Theosophy~ once-and-for-all gets defined as "doctrines found in HPB's (and related) writings." A person just "learns" Theosophy and thinks he or she has some answers. Alas, the person probably has no answers at all without undertaking the theosophical process for himself or herself. Brother Mark asks this question: ". . . can anyone tell me how theosophy has resolved the difference between the traditional Hindu view of Atman and Brahman and the quite succint refutation of these concepts by Buddhism (for example, in the Buddhist doctrine of anatman)?" Mark may as well have capitalized ~theosophy~ because the answers are most likely to come from inside-the-coffin context anyway. Atman/anatman: Is there really someone who thinks they can know the answer to that by reading HPB or anyone else? No, that is a question which can only be approached by one's own "personal mysticism"--which is the whole epistemological idea of theosophy to begin with. It sometimes amazes me that more people do not see how HPB's and other grand cosmological systems may have come into being. The "process" in process theosophy is not from large to small; it is the reverse. Take ~reincarnation~ and ~karma~ for examples. Is it too far-fetched to consider that individuals first watched themselves going to sleep each night and then being "re-born" the next morning? Is it too far-fetched to consider that they may have had desires the previous day (according to their "tendencies") and perhaps did certain things, the consequences of which may or may not yet have been experienced. Is it too far-fetched to consider that the (perhaps many) creators of the ideas of reincarnation and karma were simply those who applied the "as below, so above" methodology? Now, of course, esoteric study is seems to be largely of the "as above, so below" orientation. The concepts of reincarnation and karma must seem so grand to some people that they believe they could have only come from the Gods or at least semi-preternatural Mahatmas. It does not seem to dawn upon them that they also have within themselves the potential for saying something, at least speculatively, about the big picture if they meditate and are keen enough observers of the small picture--particularly their own psychological states and development. The result, of course, will not be something "true" or "not true" in the conventional sense; the result will most likely merely be the well-loved-by-mystics "peace which passeth understanding" about certain aspects of the bigger picture. But capital Theosophists often do not seem quite comfortable as mystics. They often seem to want to nail things down, once and for all, with the big T. Unfortunately, this attitude does not always welcome the possibility that THE SECRET DOCTRINE may also be, in many respects, a "blind" to be sure. But a blind for what? Practical Adeptship, of course. Read about reincarnation and karma and think about what the originator(s) might have been observing in his or her personal life which could have inspired such a theosophical leap. Read about anthropogenesis and think about what personal, subtle psychogenetic events the originator(s) might have been observing and which are still largely unknown to modern psychology. Read about ~Kriyashakti~ as the natural possession of the "coming races" and think about what special development some advanced originator(s) may have started to observe in his or her own life. Old HPB: Maybe she was a genius when it came to inventing the ultimate blind as well: Put THE SECRET DOCTRINE so high in the stratosphere that the "profane" are unable to stretch-out their legs far enough to keep walking on earth while reading it. . . . From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:22:11 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: More Stolen Secrets Message-ID: <+hV5DNAzE0nzEwJn@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970611190843_272562169@emout20.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >Our fine, departed friend Alexis used to talk about "process theosophy." .. and still does via http://www.parascience.org Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:15:02 -0400 (EDT) From: HermesTris@aol.com Subject: lost mail Message-ID: <970612180341_-662308113@emout20.mail.aol.com> I am very sorry, but due to a mistake I lost all of my e-mail of the last few months. If there is anybody out there, who wrote me and didn't get a reply, please mail me again. Also all of the stored listings are gone, so, now I 've just the number 233 of Theos-Buds-Digest. Maybe somebody is so friendly to remail me some of the last issues of the last month. All of you, who did'nt got the message: The theosophical group "HERMES TRISMEGISTOS" in Saarland (Germany) has her own Homepage. The URL is: http://members.aol.com/HermesTris e-mail-adress: HermesTris@aol.com. We are very interested in contacts with other people, who are also interested in theosophy. Thanks for your patience. Johannes. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:57:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Weapons Message-ID: In message <970611153427_1241873400@emout09.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >Alan, > >What could ever be shameful about people being able to decide for themselves >whether they can carry the means to defend themselves? (There are already >laws, with which I agree, against committing aggression against another >regardless of whether one uses a gun or one's fist.) Personally, I find it >outrageous that others (the gov't) feel that they have the right to decide >whether I may or may not have the ability to defend my own life, family, and >property. IMHO, no one has the right to make that decision for another. Well now, here in the UK, which is much smaller than the US in population terms, we have seen more than one massacre of innocent people by gun users (often or maybe invariably members of gun clubs). The most recent was the slaughter of a number of children in a school playground at Dunblane in Scotland. The vast majority of ordinary Brit citizens do not carry guns, nor do they wish to. Our police are not routinely armed, and for the most part do not need to be. IOW, a great deal depends upon the culture and background of any given society in an issue like this one. Here, the majority view is that the primary purpose of guns is to shoot things, especially people. Following the Dunblane tragedy, there was a public outcry and massive (not total) demand for the abolition of privately-owned handguns, even in gun clubs, the reasoning being that such clubs were the easiest place to obtain weapons by those of evil [or sick] intent. The government here has today passed a new law by a huge majority putting these proposals in place. I, along with most of the British people, applaud this action. One reason is that as I also applaud the concept behind a "Universal Brotherhood" I support efforts which encourage the opposite behavior. It has also been illegal for some time in this country to carry any knife in public which could be used as a weapon to injure others. These rules we like - they discourage violence among our citizens. Like most other countries, we also prohibit the use, sale, and possession of harmful drugs such as crack cocaine, which have similar effects. Maybe some cultures would defend the right to screw up each others' lives with these substances? We are of course free to use reasonable force to defend ourselves against attack if need be, but the use of knives and guns is OUT. Penalties for their possession and misuse can be quite severe. The more people have weapons, the more weapons will be used by people, usually against other people. Not very "theosophical" IMO. Sincerely, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:48:55 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: militia Message-ID: <199706120207.WAA13322@ultra1.dreamscape.com> The problem with owning guns, I think is that when you own one you tend to shoot with it. I guess I can see that if you're absolutely stable and sane, a gun isn't a danger, but if a slap happy kid, or someone who isn't wrapped too tight gets a hold of it, nasty things sometimes happen. The law also tells you what you may or may not do with your car, and that's a possession, so why not regulate guns which are just as lethal as cars? As for the drug laws, there I'm on the opposite end. I think we'd avoid a lot of grief if we made drugs legal. Then let addicts get their doses legally, in decreasing amounts, if possible, but so that they wouldn't have to lie & steal all the time to get their next fix. Then the pushers would be A) out of business and b) would stop trying to hook little kids, or any other new customers. There's no more preohibition, but there's still an alcohol problem, but at least noone is dying or going blind because they drank wood alcohol, and I think the problem was worse during prohibition. Many people drank alcohol anyway, just the way many people take coke anyway. I think legalizing drugs would improve things. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:33:24 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ominousness Message-ID: <339F5FF4.5188@sprynet.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > Bart, your statement makes me wonder whether creating your own reality must > necessairily exclude selflessness. I'm a firm believer in creating my own > reality. Matter of fact I'm out to adopt beliefs, realities, that please me, > and make me feel good, else I won't adopt them. But my view of the world > includes service to my fellow man. It's trouble I enjoy the most, and I've > often wondered whether I'd bother with trying to be selfless if it didn't > give me some sort of satisfaction. Here is the important question: Do you believe that there is such a thing as objective reality? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:54:33 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <339F64E9.4278@sprynet.com> Wildefire@aol.com wrote: > Just a passing thought. I find gun control laws (and all laws that regulate > the possession of "things") as an interesting manifestation of the human > obsession with "things" vs. causes and the mistaken idea that, by eliminating > or regulating the availability of a "thing", a certain problem will be > solved. Drug laws are another example of this. By saying this, I'm trying to > tie this in more closely with theosophical issues, but haven't done a very > good job of it. Anyone who's willing, though, please feel free to take this > nucleus of an idea and run with it. ;-D I COULD go all political, but I will try to do as you ask, instead :). It is difficult to speak Theosophically on what the duties of government should or should not be. From a Theosophical point of view government, for the most part, is irrelevent, as long as it permits freedom of thought. When those who control communications create thought forms, however, it is our duty as Theosophists to use proper discrimination to decide whether or not that thought form is valid, and, if the thought form is invalid, then to fight it as much as possible. Government can take for itself much more power when it is defending the people against an enemy. If such an enemy does not exist, then the government will be forced to create it (note that a conspiracy is not necessary; just a bunch of government employees individually trying to ensure that their jobs will never disappear is sufficient). From the point of view of someone in power who craves power, the ideal political system is feudalism, as that stratifies the power position. Feudalism is created when people, threatened by an outside menace, give up their freedom (i.e. ability to make decisions about karma) in return for personal security (i.e. temporary comfort of the lower self). Between the drug laws (creating a barbarian outlaw class) and the gun control laws (creating a body of "knights" to whom the people must swear fealty in order to be protected from the barbarians), the government is, however unintentionally, creating a feudal society. Those who believe that it IS intentional are the real force behind the militia movement (I personally, using Occam's razor, believe that since intentionality is not necessary, then I will not assume it to be there until proven otherwise). Those in charge of the communications, threatened by the militia movement, are attempting to swing popular opinion against it by creating thought forms dehumanizing the members; concentrating on the radical few rather than the non-radical many (note that Timothy McVeigh was THROWN OUT of the Michigan Militia, although he is portrayed as being middle-of-the-road in the militia movement). The reason it concerns me is the parallels to the way that the Nazi's portrayed Jews in their communications prior to WWII, creating thought forms that dehumanized them so that the German people would quietly accept the concentration camps. If one must make up lies to use against a cause, then one has proven that one's own cause has already been lost. The drug laws and the gun laws are being forced through by imposing incorrect thought forms on the American people. For example, a couple of years ago the New York Daily News ran a week-long profile of people whose lives were ruined by heroin. But in every single case, their lives were ruined not because they used heroin, but because the heroin they used was illegal. In other words, the damage caused by the drug laws is far worse than the damage caused by the drugs. There was a cover story in New York Magazine, whose title said it best: "Drugs are bad. Drugs are bad. Drugs are bad... The drug laws are worse." When the World Trade Center was bombed, the first thing the politicians did was go out and say that that this was a reason to have stronger gun control laws. Yet, when gun control laws are passed, they are either meaningless (like the so-called "assault weapons" law, which banned guns based on the fact that they had plastic trim instead of wooden trim), or making the posession of a gun a crime in and of itself, without criminalizing further the use of a gun, so that someone using a gun to commit a crime can use it as a chip in the plea bargain process, but someone who is otherwise law-abiding ends up in an all-or-nothing situation. I am not saying that either guns or drugs are good things (although, knowing this group, a bunch of people will automatically say I am). I am saying that creating false thought forms to combat the abuse of guns and drugs in our society only creates a worse problem. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:02:17 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Post-modernism and Victorian theosophy Message-ID: <339F66B9.626E@sprynet.com> JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > Keith: I am not sure I (or anyone) really understands philisophical schools, > but we seem to have to give them names like : > > 1. New age > 2. Post-modernism > 3. Anthroposophy > 4. THeosophy > 5. Ne0-platonism > 6. Pagan > 7. Wiccan > 8. Chritstian Look in a good philosophical dictionary (such as Cambridge). Note that only 2, 3, 4, and 5 are considered philosophies. And they are well-defined. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:20:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Sorry Chuck Message-ID: <4h74jKALD0nzEwoQ@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199706112127.PAA02588@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >And I thought today was going to be a bad day. . . :-) > > >Kym Welcome Home! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:19:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Regulation Message-ID: <6Rb4vGAIC0nzEwKD@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970611153427_1241873400@emout09.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >Just a passing thought. I find gun control laws (and all laws that regulate >the possession of "things") as an interesting manifestation of the human >obsession with "things" vs. causes and the mistaken idea that, by eliminating >or regulating the availability of a "thing", a certain problem will be >solved. Drug laws are another example of this. Dear Lynn, A further though following my other post. Regulating the availability of "things" is undertaken in human society in many ways in human societies. Large coporations regulate mass markets for their goods by using their financial power to outprice and eliminate the 'little guy' and his/her product. Regulating availability of a "thing" may not solve a problem, but it can certainly make the offence within the problem very much harder to commit. For some while now, Canada has regulated the fishing of Cod in order to prevent the destruction of fish stocks altogether. Human greed, left to its own devices, will readily leave a swathe of destruction in it wake which can never be restored. As a child in World War II Britain, I was regulated by the rationing of food, and like everyone else, compelled to carry an identity card and a gas mask when I was away from home. If we hadn't had these restraints, survival would have been much more difficult. We didn't need the gas masks in the end, but we weren't to know that in the beginning. The existence of weapons of violence leads inevitable to their use, and the international trade in them is, IMO, an abomination. Huge numbers of servicemen in the Gulf war were killed by ammunition supplied by their own nations before the war began. During WWII, my aunt came home from work in London one day to find not only that her house and home had been destroyed by enemy bombs, but that the whole *street* had vanished. I don't pretend to have total answers to the problems that these matters present, but I can see clearly enough that the theosophical ideal requires the promotion of the means of peaceful co-existence, and opposition to the means of violence which work against that peace. Sincerely, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:23:04 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The coming of the Arhats Message-ID: <4Rz4vQAoF0nzEwr4@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970611113521_-1596708236@emout18.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Why do I hear the music from the Twilight Zone playing in the background? > >Chuck the Heretic Dunno - what are you on? Is anyone speaking Klingon? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 03:53:45 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <339FC729.2565@micron.net> Bart wrote: > I am not saying that either guns or drugs are good things (although, > knowing this group, a bunch of people will automatically say I am). No! Say it isn't so! Don't worry, Barty, I'll whoop on them for you if they do. We need to run a tighter ship here. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:04:09 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Regulation Message-ID: <339FE5B9.7881@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > The existence of weapons of violence leads inevitable to their use, and > the international trade in them is, IMO, an abomination. Huge numbers > of servicemen in the Gulf war were killed by ammunition supplied by > their own nations before the war began. I TOLD my wife that was a nuclear bomb that exploded down the street the other day. SHE said it was just a truck backfiring. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:38:00 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Stealing Books Message-ID: <199706121625.MAA27307@NetGSI.com> >New Age and occult books are among the most >frequently stolen. This suggests to me that the paranoid >fundamentalists may have a point-- there really is something >evil in the character of people who are attracted to popular >New Age stuff, e.g. crystals, astrology, fortunetelling? > >Comments? Why this pattern? The main reason that people buy/read/steal New Age books is that they hold the promise of at least some kind of self-control over things. Life, for many, is out of control. Magic and other New Age books promise "easy" and "fast" results for little work, (which is mostly publishers jargon to get people to buy the books). But the promise of being able to gain some control over your life is the real reason most people are attracted to New Age materials. In some cases, the desire for control outweighs poverty or being seen buying such stuff in a book store, so they steal it from libraries. Some of my own books have disappeared from our local library shelf too. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:48:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The coming of the Arhats Message-ID: <970612133302_-1161645281@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-12 12:13:53 EDT, you write: >Dunno - what are you on? Is anyone speaking Klingon? The usual cheap wine. I didn't know there were supposed to be any Klingon airheads--er--arhats. Chuck the Exalted Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:03:42 -0400 (EDT) From: HermesTris@aol.com Subject: lost mail Message-ID: <970612180341_-1530080657@emout02.mail.aol.com> I am very sorry, but due to a mistake I lost all of my e-mail of the last few months. If there is anybody out there, who wrote me and didn't get a reply, please mail me again. Also all of the stored listings are gone. Maybe somebody is so friendly to remail me some of the last issues of the last month. All of you, who did'nt got the message: The theosophical group "HERMES TRISMEGISTOS" in Saarland (Germany) has her own Homepage. The URL is: http://members.aol.com/HermesTris e-mail-adress: HermesTris@aol.com. We are very interested in contacts with other people, who are also interested in theosophy. Thanks for your patience. Johannes. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:12:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The coming of the Arhats Message-ID: <7sNoAPAsBJozEwB0@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970612133302_-1161645281@emout16.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Chuck the Exalted Heretic Promotion at last. Let's hear it for cheap wine! Alan the Exalted Apostate --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:25:17 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: WELCOME to TI! Message-ID: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL welcomes Mike Brooker! E-mail: mikebro@clear.net.nz http://www.geocities.com/Paris/7803/ http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/3531/ MEMBER: NEW ZEALAND FREELANCE WRITERS ASSOCIATION Member HTMLWriters Guild Mike is number 70 to sign up. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 19:45:49 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: Disclosure statement? Message-ID: <199706130248.TAA13074@scv3.apple.com> K. Paul Johnson asks: >1. Do you want or need some explanation from an author of his >own affiliations or biases? >2. Does an author owe this to readers, or is it none of their >business? I was just wondering that myself, as I am starting to take mental notes on a Crowley book and my long and unpleasant experience with O.T.O. would make it difficult for me to discuss the group objectively. I have to say that your paragraph does strike me as somewhat awkward but it serves a valid purpose. In this postmodern world, one does expect a sophisticated text to be reflexive and aware of its own origins. Attempting to conceal one's personal interests would be false and could be interpreted as a conspiratorial attempt to disguise an agenda. I wonder what more graceful approach to disclosure might be possible? It might be best to personalize the narrative more extensively throughout, so this doesn't seem like an intrusion; or, if it is to remain an intrusion, to call it out as such: "Cayce has inspired a wide variety of emotional responses and I have my own strong feelings about him. To help the reader interpret my own necessarily personal view, a bit of background may be in order..." -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 19:53:59 -0700 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: Ominous pattern Message-ID: <199706130255.TAA14860@scv1.apple.com> >I know, it could've been just one person and thus no basis for >hasty generalization. But every library I've worked in has had >the same problem: New Age and occult books are among the most >frequently stolen. This suggests to me that the paranoid >fundamentalists may have a point-- there really is something >evil in the character of people who are attracted to popular >New Age stuff, e.g. crystals, astrology, fortunetelling? It's no coincidence that Hermes is god both of thieves and of magic. Occultism appeals to many people because of its concealment, which is its literal meaning as well as its practice. The same people are often attracted to concealed activities such as theft or the use of illegal drugs. Anti-occultists are wrong in attributing violence to such people -- sneakiness is an introverted trait, while violence is extroverted -- but from long association with occultists of various stripes I have no doubt at all that a characteristic sneakiness is just as often correlated with theft as it is correlated with an interest in peering behind the veil of reality. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org http://www.maroney.org From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:10:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Regulation Message-ID: In message <339FE5B9.7881@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> The existence of weapons of violence leads inevitable to their use, and >> the international trade in them is, IMO, an abomination. Huge numbers >> of servicemen in the Gulf war were killed by ammunition supplied by >> their own nations before the war began. > > I TOLD my wife that was a nuclear bomb that exploded down the street >the other day. SHE said it was just a truck backfiring. > > Bart Lidofsky Huh? Not funny. AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:06:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Drugs Message-ID: In message <199706120207.WAA13322@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >I think legalizing drugs would improve things. Maybe, if the use of them could be regulated. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:52:23 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <199706130652.AAA06321@mailmx.micron.net> Alan wrote: >The more people have weapons, the more weapons will be used by people, >usually against other people. Not very "theosophical" IMO. I agree with you on this issue, Alan. To declare, as a T/theosophist, that I love humanity, work for and toward peace and understanding, and then go on and reckon that it is necessary to pack heat - just in case - seems a bit schizophrenic to me. I betcha the "Buddha," "Jesus," "Ghandi," and other Way-show-ers couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Nonetheless, it often seems like the only sure protection is a gun. People are tortured and murdered every day crying out for protection from God, their Mothers, their Fathers, their countries. Guns, though, don't abandon us in our hour of need. We only have to reach for them and what is threatening us often backs down. Guns are our symbol of Fear, I think. Sometimes I feel I'm a blockhead for not carrying a gun - but I also feel if I ever do pick up a gun, fear has triumphed. Freedom to me is simply no longer being afraid. And I hope more than anything, that if my moment of death turns out to be one that could have been prevented if I had had a weapon, I do not curse myself too harshly. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:00:13 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <19970613.005928.14839.6.trr@juno.com> On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:52:41 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >Alan wrote: >>The more people have weapons, the more weapons will be used by >>people, usually against other people. Not very "theosophical" IMO. >I agree with you on this issue, Alan. This is simplistic. It depends on the intent of those who have the guns. The more people who have guns who will only use them for self-defense, assuming as many of those who will use them for immoral purposes have them as they do in the United States, the safer society will be. >To declare, as a T/theosophist, that I love humanity, work for and >toward peace and understanding, and then go on and reckon that it is >necessary to pack heat - just in case - seems a bit schizophrenic to me. That's because you haven't distinguished between the different motives of having weapons. Those who advocate not killing anyone for any reason should, to be consistent, also advocate that the human body not kill any viruses. The end result is the same: if poison is allowed to infect the whole body, it will die. For the sake of the survival of the human race, criminals should be removed from it. >if I ever do pick up a gun, fear has >triumphed. Freedom to me is simply no longer being afraid. Even if there is something to be afraid of? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:43:46 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A13272.39DE@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > >The more people have weapons, the more weapons will be used by people, > >usually against other people. Not very "theosophical" IMO. > > I agree with you on this issue, Alan. But do you? > Nonetheless, it often seems like the only sure protection is a gun. People > are tortured and murdered every day crying out for protection from God, > their Mothers, their Fathers, their countries. Guns, though, don't abandon > us in our hour of need. We only have to reach for them and what is > threatening us often backs down. And hence, the balance is that minimal harm is done to both you and your would-be assailant. Remember, you are part of humanity. If you allow yourself to be hurt by the assailant when you could have effected a standoff, you are hurting humanity in the process. Of course, it gets even more complicated when we bring society into the picture. In a society where both criminal and potential victim are armed, where it is the misuse of guns that is punished rather than mere possession (unless one has already demonstrated incapability of proper use of guns, the only proper use being to dissuade another from using one), the criminal, in general, motivated by Ego, and therefore strongly attached to this life, will tend to go unarmed. This is due to the fact that if a potential victim SHOOTS a gun against an unarmed criminal willing to abandon the crime at the mere appearance of the gun, then the would-be victim becomes a criminal, something the would-be victim generally wishes less than letting the criminal get away (of course, this thinking occurs in words of one syllable or less...). In a society where neither criminal nor would-be victim is armed, once again the criminal is risking bodily injury when committing a direct crime, or severe consequences should s/he be caught after using a weapon in a crime. The problem occurs when the possesion of the weapon is criminalized, but the misuse of the weapon, especially if the weapon is used solely as a threat, does not change the situation much. And that is the case in the United States where there are strong so-called "gun control" laws. For the criminal, the gun is just one more crime on a stack of many; for the would-be victim, it is a crime where none would otherwise exist. The risk for a criminal having a gun is low, but, since s/he has a population of unarmed would-be victims, the rewards for carrying a gun are high (once again, the thinking occurs in words of one syllable or less). Hence, flawed gun control is WORSE for humanity than no gun control at all, and therefore untheosophical (although I would agree with Dr. Bain that effective gun control is superior to none). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:47:56 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A1336C.7AF@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > That's because you haven't distinguished between the different motives of > having weapons. Those who advocate not killing anyone for any reason > should, to be consistent, also advocate that the human body not kill any > viruses. The end result is the same: if poison is allowed to infect the > whole body, it will die. For the sake of the survival of the human race, > criminals should be removed from it. Q: What is the difference between a criminal and a virus? A: A virus cannot become anything other than a virus. HPB wrote an excellent article on suicide, once. It is in her collected writings, and in Michael Gomes' collection, HPB TEACHES (a collection I strongly recommend to all Theosophists, even though Adyar refuses to pay Michael his royalties). The more general message she gives impacts directly on your theories. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:39:04 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970613123904.00dc97f4@mail.eden.com> At 07:48 AM 6/13/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > HPB wrote an excellent article on suicide, once. It is in her collected >writings, and in Michael Gomes' collection, HPB TEACHES (a collection I >strongly recommend to all Theosophists, even though Adyar refuses to pay >Michael his royalties). The more general message she gives impacts That is interesting. Who published the book and what is the ISBN? What is the reasoning behind refusal of royalties? ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 8:43:16 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Ominous pattern Message-ID: <199706131243.IAA18566@leo.vsla.edu> Thanks to all who have offered theories. I'm inclined to accept Tim's, Alan's, Jerry's, and even Bart's hypotheses more than Eldon's. That's because in addition to the things that are outright stolen from the library, there are all the books checked out and never returned. Anything about Satanism, witchcraft, astral travel, dream interpretation, etc. tends to be in the latter category, and we *see* the people who abscond with those. Young (under 30), weird/flaky, probably into drugs and piercing and God knows what else. Never heard of postmodernism in their lives, but they are certainly anomic and out for themselves which amounts to the same thing Bart is saying. Looking for ways to manipulate reality to suit them, or a rush. Fundamentalists would, I think, fear divine wrath for stealing; although there may be a kind in Southern California rather different from our relatively harmless local variety. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:05:58 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Psychosophy Message-ID: <33A161D4.1857@earthlink.net> Hello, Introduction to psychosophy (auras & energies) www page is http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/intropsych.html Shanti, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html *** (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:23:40 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A165F7.5B6A@earthlink.net> > It depends on the intent of those who have the guns. > The more people who have guns who will only use them for self-defense, > assuming as many of those who will use them for immoral purposes have > them as they do in the United States, the safer society will be. Indeed...in fact in the U.S. where most people own guns there is the lowest crime rate. Deterrence works best at the current societal stage. > That's because you haven't distinguished between the different motives of > having weapons. Those who advocate not killing anyone for any reason > should, to be consistent, also advocate that the human body not kill any > viruses. The end result is the same: if poison is allowed to infect the > whole body, it will die. For the sake of the survival of the human race, > criminals should be removed from it. > > >Freedom to me is simply no longer being afraid. > > Even if there is something to be afraid of? yep...(even though we need not actually fear... just be aware of how to deal with those opposed to freedom) ...lesson of history...we can always remember how well disarmanent and appeasement worked before WWII...NOT We'll I'm off to practice with my spiritual grenade launcher...:) Cheers, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:41:35 -0600 (MDT) From: jrcecon@selway.umt.edu (JRC) Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <199706131741.LAA22742@selway.umt.edu> At 01:25 PM 6/13/97 -0400, Patrick Alessandra Jr. wrote: >> It depends on the intent of those who have the guns. >> The more people who have guns who will only use them for self-defense, >> assuming as many of those who will use them for immoral purposes have >> them as they do in the United States, the safer society will be. > > Indeed...in fact in the U.S. where most people own guns there is >the lowest crime rate. Deterrence works best at the current societal >stage. Yes but this is just the US - a somewhat immature nation. I recently saw a bunch of UN statistics ... turns out that England - where as Alan points out very few guns circulate - has one of the lowest per capita murder rates in the civilized world, *far* below that of the US. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 14:37:53 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Disclosure statement? Message-ID: <199706131837.OAA27209@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Tim and all, I had actually started with a more personal and longer section, and cut it down. Have redone it dramatically and invite editorial comments: Post-modern readers may wish to know something of an author's biases at the outset. The intention behind this book is to provide a fair, balanced, sympathetic but objective introduction to the Cayce readings. In Tidewater Virginia, where I was born and lived most of my life, Cayce is viewed fondly by most locals as an adopted native son; as a child I heard only good things about him from my relatives, some of whom had known the Cayce family personally. I first read about him as a young teenager, when my cousin Doris Agee wrote a highly favorable book about him, *Edgar Cayce on ESP*. I joined the A.R.E. for a year in 1977-78 before going on to spend the next seventeen years focusing most of my attention on Theosophy. As an adult I have been influenced by the readings' guidelines on health and meditation, and have participated in three Search for God study groups at widely-spaced intervals. In 1995, I renewed membership in the A.R.E., but have never been involved in the organization apart from Study Group participation. Thus I approach Cayce neither as an insider nor an outsider. Perhaps the best phrase to describe my approach to Cayce (and Blavatsky, subject of my previous books) is "skeptical believer." Balancing sympathy with objectivity entails a struggle to prevent one's perception of facts from being clouded by one's appreciation for the person or movement studied. The cost of such a marginal position is being condemned by believers as too skeptical and by skeptics as too credulous. But the benefit, which outweighs the cost, is an ability to perceive possibilities that are not recognized by partisans on either side. Inelegant perhaps, but straight from the heart. How is it? This will go at the end of the acknowledgments, rather than in the introduction where I consider it too intrusive. Editing welcome. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:01:06 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: To: Johannes, Re: lost mail Message-ID: <199706131319.JAA10521@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Johannes, Why do you want theos-buds? Most of our communications are on theos-l. I'll be glad to send you some stuff, or maybe, when you let me know what you're interested in, I'll ask John Mead to fish it out of the archives for you. He knows better how it works than I do. Anyway, please let me know what it is you want. I understand German, if you'd rather write in German. My talking is a little rusty, but it still works too. Liesel .............................................................................. >I am very sorry, but due to a mistake I lost all of my e-mail of the last few >months. >If there is anybody out there, who wrote me and didn't get a reply, please >mail me again. > >Also all of the stored listings are gone, so, now I 've just the number 233 >of Theos-Buds-Digest. Maybe somebody is so friendly to remail me some of the >last issues of the last month. > >All of you, who did'nt got the message: >The theosophical group "HERMES TRISMEGISTOS" in Saarland (Germany) has her >own Homepage. The URL is: >http://members.aol.com/HermesTris e-mail-adress: HermesTris@aol.com. > >We are very interested in contacts with other people, who are also interested >in theosophy. > >Thanks for your patience. Johannes. > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:42:30 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: To: Johannes, Re: lost mail Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970613144230.00db91bc@mail.eden.com> Almost all the postings during the last few months can be retrieved. They are stored as files by date. Just sending a msg to listserv@vnet.net with INDEX THEOS-L in the body of the msg will get you a complete list of files. Once this list is available, they can be retrieved by using the GET command. I would suggest first sending a msg to the listserv@vnet.net with HELP in the body of the msg. Tha't is all to it. ......doss At 09:22 AM 6/13/97 -0400, liesel f. deutsch wrote: >Dear Johannes, > >Why do you want theos-buds? Most of our communications are on theos-l. I'll >be glad to send you some stuff, or maybe, when you let me know what you're >interested in, I'll ask John Mead to fish it out of the archives for you. He >knows better how it works than I do. Anyway, please let me know what it is >you want. >I understand German, if you'd rather write in German. My talking is a little >rusty, but it still works too. > >Liesel >.............................................................................. > > >>I am very sorry, but due to a mistake I lost all of my e-mail of the last few >>months. >>If there is anybody out there, who wrote me and didn't get a reply, please >>mail me again. >> >>Also all of the stored listings are gone, so, now I 've just the number 233 >>of Theos-Buds-Digest. Maybe somebody is so friendly to remail me some of the >>last issues of the last month. >> >>All of you, who did'nt got the message: >>The theosophical group "HERMES TRISMEGISTOS" in Saarland (Germany) has her >>own Homepage. The URL is: >>http://members.aol.com/HermesTris e-mail-adress: HermesTris@aol.com. >> >>We are very interested in contacts with other people, who are also interested >>in theosophy. >> >>Thanks for your patience. Johannes. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:16:08 +1000 From: caruanar@rosebay.matra.com.au Subject: Eureka, My intuition has allowed me to master this listserver Message-ID: <199706140816.SAA17836@rosebay.matra.com.au> Hello My name is richard caruana from sydney australia. I am writing on behalf of gladney oakley who is intereted in people who may be able to offer help/suggestions towards indexing various theosophical journals and placing them on CD-rom for libraries and/or listing on the internet. Presently, Blavatsky Lodge in Australia has a bookshop website http://www.adyar.com.au If anyone is interested please let me know, I don"t think I shall be snowed under with replies but I shall make an earnest attempt to co-ordinate things if there are a lot of replies. My first thought was to form a web-page cataloguing what has been done and what needs to be done. This idea is in the pipeline so stay tuned... kindest regards Richard From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:39:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Stealing Books Message-ID: <970613113449_2055009401@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-13 00:32:51 EDT, you write: > Some of my >own books have disappeared from our local library >shelf too. Annoying as it is, there is something highly complimentary to an author that somebody is willing to take up a life of crime in order to read his works. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 15:08:00 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Crime statistics Message-ID: <199706131908.PAA00772@leo.vsla.edu> Pat, I think you are making a very wrong interpretation of a statistic when you say "Where gun ownership is highest, crime rates are lowest." Might as well say "Where population density is lowest..." Because the high gun-ownership is by hunters in rural parts of the country, where of course crime rates are low. Now if you looked at *handgun* ownership I bet you you would find that where it's highest, crime rates are highest. Second, about comparative statistics, re JRC's comments. It's true that the UK has *very* low murder rates. But it's also true that those talking heads who say ours in the US is way higher than other Western industrialized countries are full of crap. The Netherlands has a higher murder rate than ours, and Sweden, Russia and Italy are right behind us in the top 25. (We're 19, Netherlands 14. Don't go to Swaziland, #1, or the Bahamas, #2.) Another shocker was that *property* crime rates are higher in almost all the "more civilized" countries, including Canada, the UK, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, Holland, and others, than here. Comparisons are tricky, but even so. Another false statistic we hear often is that out-of-wedlock births are drastically higher here than in Western Europe, etc. Iceland is I think around 49% and many other countries are ahead of us. It's *teenage mothers* that we rank near the top on, because of ignorance/lack of birth control, which I blame on the anti-abortion religious right. There'd probably be a lot fewer abortions if they weren't also opposing widespread birth control information. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:31:29 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A1A00D.1140@earthlink.net> > Yes but this is just the US - a somewhat immature nation. I recently > saw a bunch of UN statistics ... turns out that England - where as Alan > points out very few guns circulate - has one of the lowest per capita murder > rates in the civilized world, *far* below that of the US. where do you get your statistics? England has a higher per capita murder rate from weapons violence than does the U.S. the issue and the fact is that where the people are freer (i.e., have the right to bear arms) there is inevitably going to be less crime... P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:32:48 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A1A05C.3A80@earthlink.net> In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more mature an nentity than any other nation in the world....in freedom comes the greatest opportunity. Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:36:22 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <199706132336.RAA17196@mailmx.micron.net> Patrick declared: >In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more >mature an nentity than any other nation in the world.... Upon what do we base this utterance? What's the "In fact?" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:43:28 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: TGA Message-ID: <199706132343.RAA17375@mailmx.micron.net> Some dictionaries list the word 'gun' as coming from the Old French word "mangonnel" which is "a machine for throwing stones." Hmmm. . . Perhaps if we change the name to "Theosophical Gunslinger's of America," we may draw in more folks. It seems to work for everyone else. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:23:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <970613202313_1620403964@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-13 17:57:26 EDT, you write: > where do you get your statistics? England has a higher per capita >murder rate from weapons violence than does the U.S. > the issue and the fact is that where the people are freer (i.e., >have the right to bear arms) there is inevitably going to be less >crime... > > And getting shot is a much cleaner and quicker death than being beaten to death with a cricket bat. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:25:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <970613202527_-1463462658@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-13 19:28:58 EDT, you write: >>if I ever do pick up a gun, fear has >>triumphed. Do not confuse fear with rational prudence. On those occasions where I find myself in areas where people have a habit of attacking each other, I have a better chance of getting out alive if I can kill them first. Chuck the Heavily Armed Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:55:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: The coming of the Arhats Message-ID: <970613195550_-1094446175@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-12 17:20:07 EDT, you write: > >Dunno - what are you on? Is anyone speaking Klingon? > > The usual cheap wine. I didn't know there were supposed to be any Klingon > airheads--er--arhats. > > Chuck the Exalted Heretic Klingons do indeed have arhat-types. Remember when they cloned one centuries after he died? Kaplachhh! Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:15:57 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Disclosure statement? Message-ID: <33A1E2BD.669C@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > I had actually started with a more personal and longer section, > and cut it down. Have redone it dramatically and invite > editorial comments: Just one comment, with really nothing to do with your excellent introduction.... > Post-modern readers may wish to know something of an author's > biases at the outset. I have compared post-modernism to a hammer. If it is a hammer, than art and literature are certainly the nails. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:10:12 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970614011012.006fe4ac@mail.eden.com> At 05:36 PM 6/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ How can anyone "measure" spiritual evolution? When we look at the prison population and crime, I sometimes wonder about the state of spiritual evolution. The other day I was seeing a documentary of a tribe in a remote area of I believe Brazil or so where they have a very peaceful life. No courts. No shooting or killing of each other. No cheating of thers. No prisons. No banks. Low tech. If any of them were to be instantly transplanted to say any inner city and see the shooting and kill, they would be shocked and could not understand why people kill each other. Just a thought. YMDMV. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:06:16 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A1E078.7AF8@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > At 07:48 AM 6/13/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > HPB wrote an excellent article on suicide, once. It is in her collected > >writings, and in Michael Gomes' collection, HPB TEACHES (a collection I > >strongly recommend to all Theosophists, even though Adyar refuses to pay > >Michael his royalties). The more general message she gives impacts > > That is interesting. Who published the book and what is the ISBN? > What is the reasoning behind refusal of royalties? The book is published by the Theosophical Publishing House in Adyar, and the reason why he hasn't seen any royalties is because they are horribly disorganized, or because he complained about the nepotism there. They ARE horribly disorganized, and they WERE upset about his complaints of nepotism, so it's hard to pick which one is the correct reason. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:23:46 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: In message <33A1A05C.3A80@earthlink.net>, "Patrick Alessandra Jr." writes >In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more >mature an nentity than any other nation in the world....in freedom comes >the greatest opportunity. > >Shanti, >P Waco. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:47:34 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: ominousness Message-ID: <199706140205.WAA11919@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Here is the important question: Do you believe that there is such a >thing as objective reality? > > Bart Lidofsky > Yes, I believe that there is such a thing as objective reality. But I also believe that human beings can't perceive it. You're implying that my view of unselfishness ought to be objective, and I'm saying I don't think it can be. Furthermore, I'm saying that it's extremely difficult to discern when someone does something out of purely selfless motives. There's most usually a sense of satisfaction, unless one has managed to become very, very detached. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:49:48 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A214DC.2F4A@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <33A1A05C.3A80@earthlink.net>, "Patrick Alessandra Jr." > writes > >In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more > >mature an nentity than any other nation in the world....in freedom comes > >the greatest opportunity. > > > >Shanti, > >P > > Waco. What about it? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:06:43 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A218D3.21F9@eden.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > M K Ramadoss wrote: > > > > At 07:48 AM 6/13/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > > > HPB wrote an excellent article on suicide, once. It is in her collected > > >writings, and in Michael Gomes' collection, HPB TEACHES (a collection I > > >strongly recommend to all Theosophists, even though Adyar refuses to pay > > >Michael his royalties). The more general message she gives impacts > > > > That is interesting. Who published the book and what is the ISBN? > > What is the reasoning behind refusal of royalties? > > The book is published by the Theosophical Publishing House in Adyar, > and the reason why he hasn't seen any royalties is because they are > horribly disorganized, or because he complained about the nepotism > there. They ARE horribly disorganized, and they WERE upset about his > complaints of nepotism, so it's hard to pick which one is the correct > reason. > > Bart Lidofsky Thanks for the information. My experience with Adyar has been outstanding and prompt. I have always received prompt and quick response to all my correspondence. There have even been times when I received faster response from Adyar than Olcott even using snailmail, which takes considerable time to travel to India and back. I think Michael should take up with people at the highest levels and I hope it will be resolved soon. M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:15:39 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Weapons Message-ID: <3LMbZTArKeozEwSb@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <19970613.005928.14839.6.trr@juno.com>, Tom Robertson writes >That's because you haven't distinguished between the different motives of >having weapons. Those who advocate not killing anyone for any reason >should, to be consistent, also advocate that the human body not kill any >viruses. The end result is the same: if poison is allowed to infect the >whole body, it will die. For the sake of the survival of the human race, >criminals should be removed from it. So let's kill guns. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:14:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TGA Message-ID: <970614001443_1418176879@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-13 21:21:32 EDT, you write: >Perhaps if we change the name to "Theosophical Gunslinger's of America," we >may draw in more folks. It seems to work for everyone else. . . > > I like it. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:30:04 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A2649A.60DD@earthlink.net> > >In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more > >mature an nentity than any other nation in the world.... Read the summary section of HPB's "Anthropogenisis." P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 05:03:30 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: re: Weapons Europe's problems Message-ID: <33A26C5D.248A@earthlink.net> ..and more importantly Europe has a far greater crime rate from weapons violence than does the USA...(... as is inevitable when one group of people allows itself to be unarmed and untrained while another is armed...and in cases when there is an armed gov't and an unarmed populace the end is always dictatorship). P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 07:25:18 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970614122518.0073daa4@mail.eden.com> At 07:31 AM 6/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more >> >mature an nentity than any other nation in the world.... > > Read the summary section of HPB's "Anthropogenisis." > >P > On this issue, the comment in ML to APS may also be relevant. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 9:57:22 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <199706141357.JAA03270@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Patrick, Can you give a source for your repeated quote about UK weapons violence? My stats come from The Illustrated Book of World Rankings, which uses mostly UN sources. KPJ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 07:20:43 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <33A28C8F.4F69@earthlink.net> > Can you give a source for your repeated quote about UK weapons > violence? My stats come from The Illustrated Book of World > Rankings, which uses mostly UN sources. I will look into putting together the exoteric confirming info, although I believe that if the stats in any well-researched book were combined appropriately it could be shown (as stats can be combined in many ways)...particularly if in the assessment terrorist violence is included. However the UN's stats would I expect be skewed toward their desires as to how to change the world. There are many ways of gathering stats and setting criteria. Rather than statistical arguments which can be massaged in many ways the arms argument is one of essential inainable principle. More to the point is not UK but Europe...Bosnia is a perfect example of what happens when arms are controlled and people are unable to defend themselves. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 07:31:34 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Patrick's stats 2 Message-ID: <33A28F18.5690@earthlink.net> In the assessment one would include the numbers in Ireland, etc. for UK and, as mentioned, Bosnia,etc for Europe...as these illustrate well what happens when the right to self-defense is trampled on. Again...even though I mentioned stats (and now I consider doing so a mistake as such are actualy irrelevant), using such cannot constitute a proof as to this matter... and for this issue...the right to adequate means of self-defense...I would rather shift focus to the principles involved. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 07:46:45 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Principles of Freedom Message-ID: <33A292A4.55B8@earthlink.net> Essential to solutions, I believe (regarding arms or economics) is an acceptance and protection of inalienable rights by gov'ts. If for example the U.N. made it's focus the protection of such rights (rather than resource re-distribution) the many issues would resolve themselves. An article on this relevant to the issues we have been discussing (war, economics, etc.) is at http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:56:46 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970614145646.00dbd678@mail.eden.com> At 10:22 AM 6/14/97 -0400, Patrick Alessandra Jr. wrote: Rather than statistical arguments which can be massaged in >many ways the arms argument is one of essential inainable principle. >More to the point is not UK but Europe...Bosnia is a perfect example of >what happens when arms are controlled and people are unable to defend >themselves. Is it not that in Bosnia we had a civil war? Wars are never pretty and compassinate and peaceful. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:43:25 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: guns Message-ID: <199706141501.LAA11962@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >If any of them were to be instantly >transplanted to say any inner city and see the shooting and kill, they would >be shocked and could not understand why people kill each other. They also would have a hard time surviving. People who live in these conditions find it difficult, the more so if you'd be thrown into them from entirely different conditions. I'd hate to have that kind of culture shock. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:46:50 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: weapons Message-ID: <199706141505.LAA14055@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >they are >horribly disorganized, Bart, I wonder whether you cam shed some light as to why they're terribly disorganized in Adyar. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:49:42 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: weapons Message-ID: <199706141507.LAA15999@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >>Shanti, >>P > >Waco. > >Alan IRA bombings Namaste Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:53:50 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: weapons Message-ID: <199706141512.LAA18775@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >> >In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more >> >mature an nentity than any other nation in the world.... > > Read the summary section of HPB's "Anthropogenisis." > >P Ah, Patrick, now I understand where you're coming from. "Anthropogenesis" was written 120 years ago. Things in America changed a lot after WWII. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:22:01 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <33A29AE3.6622@earthlink.net> > Is it not that in Bosnia we had a civil war? Wars are never pretty > and compassinate and peaceful. Yes, quite right, the reason for the war and it's continuity, though, is because one side is effectively defenseless (disarmed), thus we have had genocide and this was the choice of the western European nations in order to prevent the war from spreading to them. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:30:43 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: USA Message-ID: <33A29CEB.48EF@earthlink.net> > Ah, Patrick, now I understand where you're coming from. "Anthropogenesis" > was written 120 years ago. Things in America changed a lot after WWII. Yes, the evolution has been speeded up by humanity's right choices and the predictions made in the S.D. are comiong true as to the U.S.A. today and the spiritual nature of the people..more so in some areas than in others of course...but the USA as an entity is the cradle of the 1st subrace of the Sixth root race incarnating today (actually ahead of schedule). P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:10:33 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: How stats work Message-ID: <33A2A658.33A0@earthlink.net> Referencing stats as to evaluating a particular issue or law is a tricky process... ...for example on gun control such factors as how many life's were saved or crimes prevented by people owning and using guns should be considered but has not been in most studies. The last one I heard about in the USA which included this found I believe that 3 times as many crimes were prevented as committed by citizens using guns (there is also the factor as to whether the gun was legally or illegally owned and the training of the owner that has bearing on this...). There are many ways to massage this of course...but for example if in the UK people did own guns then perhaps the crime rate would drop to 1/3 of what it is...food for thought on how these stats work. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:26:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <970614122611_23894377@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-14 00:28:03 EDT, you write: >Waco. > >Alan Soccer fans. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:27:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The coming of the Arhats Message-ID: <970614122735_421747306@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-14 02:06:26 EDT, you write: > Klingons do indeed have arhat-types. Remember when they cloned one >centuries after he died? > > And he proved to be a real loser, if I remember correctly, or was that merely his followers? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:54:34 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Patrick Alessandra Jr. wrote: > I will look into putting together the exoteric confirming info, > although I believe that if the stats in any well-researched book were > combined appropriately it could be shown (as stats can be combined in > many ways)...particularly if in the assessment terrorist violence is > included. However the UN's stats would I expect be skewed toward their > desires as to how to change the world. There are many ways of gathering > stats and setting criteria. *All* stats will to some degree reflect the opinions of the gatherers. Are you saying that you have some that are absolutely "objective"? You don't think stats gathered in America by the American government will not be as "skewed" as UN stats? And the inclusion of terrorism will do very little to help your case. Terrorism is mainly a *political* tactic - designed to cause public attention to be manipulated. The actual deaths from it are minimal. More people were killed in America by drunk drivers last *month* than were killed by terrorism in all of western Europe during all of last year. > Rather than statistical arguments which can be massaged in > many ways the arms argument is one of essential inainable principle. > More to the point is not UK but Europe...Bosnia is a perfect example of > what happens when arms are controlled and people are unable to defend > themselves. Is not extending the sample set to include a clearly anomolous nation to make your point not a wee bit of that "massaging" of stats? Why wouldn't Japan - where virtually no one is permitted to carry guns, and that has extremely low crime rates - also make a perfect example? I'm sorry but this whole discussion seems slightly bizarre when I step back from it - to follow a chain of logic that concludes that when a nation is finally armed to the teeth ... and almost every citizen has a weapon - is actually some mark of *spiritual stature*, some ideal that is a *good*, something to strive for .... well, I guess we've just thrown out Christ, and Buddha, and Gandhi, and the Dali Lama, and in fact the whole tenor of most of the greatest teachers our race has ever known. I've never owned a weapon, and never will. Curiously, I've never needed one either ... even in Detroit. Intuition has kept me perfectly safe,but if it came down to it, I would die before I killed. I could handle death ... what's one life in a long chain? But I could not live with the notion that I took a human life .. regrdless of the justifications its possible to construct for such an act. "Spiritual evolution", (IMO) is a state in which a population has become so generally appalled at the thought of violence, weapons, and the glamour of the attacking/defending modality (generated by the brain stem, not higher thought) that no one is armed, and no one feels the need to be. The ideal is *not* a state wherein criminals are as full of fear as the rest of the citizenry because *everyone's* ready to shoot. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:22:44 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <33A2B741.5469@earthlink.net> In this discussion we are indeed "mixing and comapring apples and oranges" as to crime rates, gun crimes and national policies...there are *many* factors which bring a nation to a certain evolutionary level and which produce certain societal styles (whether a nation is homogeneous (Japan) or diverse (Bosnia) is significant as to the these stats). The primary point is that removing inalienable rights does not make for a better society and indeed all on-going significant social difficulties can be traced to just such. (see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:35:13 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <19970614.103350.2263.1.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:23:41 -0400 (EDT) "Patrick Alessandra Jr." writes: >> Is it not that in Bosnia we had a civil war? Wars are never >>pretty and compassinate and peaceful. > > Yes, quite right, the reason for the war and it's continuity, >though, is because one side is effectively defenseless (disarmed), >thus we have had genocide and this was the choice of the western >European nations in order to prevent the war from spreading to them. > >P And neither would removing the guns do much good. In two other recent genocides (Cambodia and Rwanda), much, if not most, of the killing was done with swords. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:35:13 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Weapons Europe's problems Message-ID: <19970614.103350.2263.0.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:05:30 -0400 (EDT) "Patrick Alessandra Jr." writes: >..and more importantly Europe has a far greater crime rate from >weapons >violence than does the USA...(... as is inevitable when one group of >people allows itself to be unarmed and untrained while another is >armed...and in cases when there is an armed gov't and an unarmed >populace the end is always dictatorship). > >P > When I was discussing the Holocaust in a newsgroup, I asked why didn't the Jews fight back with guns, and I was told that, unlike so many people in the United States, it was simply against the tradition of the European Jews to own such weapons. And I wonder why the Nazis never invaded Switzerland! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:35:36 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: USA stats Message-ID: <33A2BA42.55E2@earthlink.net> ref JRC's post... Indeed..if one takes into account stat factors regarding the overlap of race diversity (race as described in the SD) and individual freedoms the USA would I believe have the lowest relative crime rate in the world. :-) P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:44:50 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <19970614.104351.2263.2.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:55:12 -0400 (EDT) JRC writes: > I'm sorry but this whole discussion seems slightly bizarre >when I step back from it - to follow a chain of logic that concludes that >when a nation is finally armed to the teeth ... and almost every citizen >has a weapon - is actually some mark of *spiritual stature*, some >ideal that is a *good*, something to strive for .... well, I guess we've >just thrown out Christ, and Buddha, and Gandhi, and the Dali Lama, >and in fact the whole tenor of most of the greatest teachers our race >has ever known. That's because you have made the mistake, which is typical of the liberal approach, of believing that the problem is that good people might initiate the use of weapons, when the problem is how good people should react to bad people initiating the use of weapons. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:51:28 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Weapons Europe's problems Message-ID: <33A2BDF6.6B01@earthlink.net> > When I was discussing the Holocaust in a newsgroup, I asked why didn't > the Jews fight back with guns, and I was told that, unlike so many people > in the United States, it was simply against the tradition of the European > Jews to own such weapons. And I wonder why the Nazis never invaded > Switzerland! Yes... > And neither would removing the guns do much good. In two other recent > genocides (Cambodia and Rwanda), much, if not most, of the killing was > done with swords. Yes... P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:04:09 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: weapons Message-ID: <33A2DD19.390D@sprynet.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > >they are > >horribly disorganized, > > Bart, I wonder whether you cam shed some light as to why they're terribly > disorganized in Adyar. I am talking about the TPH there, not the entire organization. And I do not know why (although one might note that the books that come out of Adyar have a tendency to fall apart...) Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:03:57 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <33A2C0DF.448B@earthlink.net> > That's because you have made the mistake, which is typical of the liberal > approach, of believing that the problem is that good people might > initiate the use of weapons, when the problem is how good people should > react to bad people initiating the use of weapons. Yea verily... ...to paraphrase the famous story: "When they came for the Bosnians I did not fight because I was not Bosnian" "When they came for the Rwandans I did not fight because I was not Rwandan" "When they came for the Irish I did not fight because I was not Irish" "When they came to take me away.. I found that there was no one left who fight for me" P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:08:06 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: USA Message-ID: <33A2DE06.5F25@sprynet.com> Patrick Alessandra Jr. wrote: > Yes, the evolution has been speeded up by humanity's right choices > and the predictions made in the S.D. are comiong true as to the U.S.A. > today and the spiritual nature of the people..more so in some areas than > in others of course...but the USA as an entity is the cradle of the 1st > subrace of the Sixth root race incarnating today (actually ahead of > schedule). Who are the members of the sixth root race? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:15:28 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Patrick Alessandra Jr. wrote: > The primary point is that removing inalienable rights does not make for > a better society and indeed all on-going significant social difficulties > can be traced to just such. (see > http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) > > P > Er, we are born with the inalienable right to carry a Smith and Wessen? What is your definition of "inalienable right? -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:23:54 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Tom Robertson wrote: > > On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:55:12 -0400 (EDT) JRC > writes: > > > I'm sorry but this whole discussion seems slightly bizarre > >when I step back from it - to follow a chain of logic that concludes > that > >when a nation is finally armed to the teeth ... and almost every citizen > >has a weapon - is actually some mark of *spiritual stature*, some >ideal > that is a *good*, something to strive for .... well, I guess we've >just > thrown out Christ, and Buddha, and Gandhi, and the Dali Lama, >and in > fact the whole tenor of most of the greatest teachers our race >has ever > known. > > That's because you have made the mistake, which is typical of the liberal > approach, of believing that the problem is that good people might > initiate the use of weapons, when the problem is how good people should > react to bad people initiating the use of weapons. > Or perhaps you are making the typical conservative mistake of believing the writings of those masters ought to be followed only to the degree it is convenient. They were all pretty clear about what they thought the response of good people should be - no, not just pretty clear, but actually adament. And the response was not weaponry. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:30:58 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Inalienable/Fundmental Rights Message-ID: <33A2C72D.6D51@earthlink.net> > What is your definition of "inalienable right? -JRC ref the U.S. Declaration of Independence and constitutional Bill of Rights as an a attempt at the practical expression of this. The same rights for all...one way to say it is "a right is an exercise of freedom which does not directly and individually interfere with the same rights of others." P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:36:49 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <33A2C88B.3ADE@earthlink.net> > Or perhaps you are making the typical conservative mistake of believing > the writings of those masters ought to be followed only to the degree it > is convenient. They were all pretty clear about what they thought the > response of good people should be - no, not just pretty clear, but > actually adament. And the response was not weaponry. On the contrary in WWII and in general in an imperfect world the Mahatmas' response is to promote all to adequate self-defense...the means of the adequacy will change as humanity evolves. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:27:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: weapons Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > > > >they are > > >horribly disorganized, > > > > Bart, I wonder whether you cam shed some light as to why they're terribly > > disorganized in Adyar. > > I am talking about the TPH there, not the entire organization. And I do > not know why (although one might note that the books that come out of > Adyar have a tendency to fall apart...) > > Bart Lidofsky > I don't know if some of the books of TPH fall apart, may be it is a batch with bad production. I have books published by TPH ranging from 10-80 years that have not yet fallen apart. I think the fact that some of the books are falling apart should be brought to the attention of TPH so that they can look into the matter and find out what went wrong with the production. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:30:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Inalienable/Fundmental Rights Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Patrick Alessandra Jr. wrote: > > What is your definition of "inalienable right? -JRC > > ref the U.S. Declaration of Independence and constitutional Bill of > Rights as an a attempt at the practical expression of this. The same > rights for all...one way to say it is "a right is an exercise of freedom > which does not directly and individually interfere with the same rights > of others." > > P > One of the things we always hear is about the "rights". I think along with the "rights" go "responsibilities". I thing both should be looked at concurrently. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:50:45 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: On past issues (some questioning) Message-ID: <33A2E805.2CFC@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Someone wrote: > One of the reasons I continue to harp on the "Big T" theme is that it tends > to put the big nail in HPB's coffin rather than the little nail which can be > pried off by an individual who has a little intuition (and just in general is > a good s(S)elf-observer). > Seems i do not understand well that you writed. please be more clear. And Alan wrote: > >Our fine, departed friend Alexis used to talk about "process theosophy." > > .. and still does via http://www.parascience.org > > Alan I saw the site you put as a link, Alan. I saw the Theosophy seccion.Really, what i read there was terrible. On C.W.Leadbeater, the case (accused as a child molester) Maybe was the first time the pepole protested on a supposed case of pedophilia, because, if we remember, still in the forties, was a normal thing , that adult men married small childs on puberty (remember well the case of Lewis Carroll, that was in love of the small 10-12 year old Alice, in Blavatsky's epoque) And in third world countries, is still a common practice, in the native and poor pepole.Of course, the homosexual cases, they were common in that age also, and in childs too. I'm not trying to justify anything, as i said, i do not belong to any theosophical organization, and i do not pretend to, because i think it restrains my liberty to make a accurate judgement. But, i think, let us be not so severe on that. You weren't born in that age,Alan, so, none of us can put hands on fire to believe faithfully on the veracity of the testimonies of that epoque. That thing (The CWLeadbeater case) remains me on the Woody Allen issue, the Michael Jackson issue, those famous cases (Invented or not) that only serve to make noise and appart our minds on the real and problematic issues (As gun control, for example) I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS THE TRUE IN THAT SUBJECT. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN INNOCENCE ON LEADBEATER, BUT ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIS GUILTYNESS. IS A MATTER OF SEARCHING THE TRUTH INSIDE THE HALF TRUTHS AND LIES. Search with the heart, i only can say. and let us not ruin the memory of a person as they did with Oscar Wilde. that's why the pepole do not believe in scandals. they still will keep with the true they believe, even if Oprah would presented them. As i said, that issues distract us of the real problem. The gun control. On that issue, i only can say one thing: speaking on my situation here in Mexico: The gun flow always will go to the pepole that doesn't need them (as bad policeman and ex-policeman turn into delinquents) and they will use them to do damage.Try to enter the reality of the subjects. try to feel it deep within. understand the problem in all the points, inside and outside, as a yogi would do it. is not so hard.only requires that we use our mind in that. the problem is that most of us don't dediquate enough time to think.We let other pepole think for ourselves. For my thinking, the problem is not gun control, but the pepole. the pepole that use the guns, and the pepole that regulates the problem. Remember that each of us are regulated by two oposite forces. the thing is make a balance of that, and follow the truth within. the problem with guns is that, as a devise make expressly TO MAKE DAMAGE, the karma of the object (and the purpose for was it made) will ALWAYS do damage, even if it is to defend someone. but let us not be so severe.think, my fellow friends, and try to see the problem on all of the sides, inside, outside and around. that way will comprehend more the problem. be a supposing child molesting accusation (I believe the same to Mia as to Woody) as to the philosophical question of the gun control: is only a matter of judgenent. in Mexico, a very famous comercial said something of a glass of water at half. some pepole see the glass half-empty. some see it half-full. a matter of question. Alan, i really care and apretiate you. you are very cleaver and wise. if you believe what you wrote in that seccion, is okay.is your truth. i believe that many pepole are envious, and make gossip, and evil talking on others, because pepole with brilliant success are propense to that. I do not know if Leadbeater was innocent, but also i do not know if he was guilty.after all,if it was or wasn't, is a matter of importance only to him, because is he's karma, we do not have to interfer, especcialy if the matter was too many years ago. I still care of you, and of my friends here in theos-l, and consider you my friend. Your ideas or mine will never make me change my mind. is true, we have to be critical, and that is the knowledge you taught me. and i'm very glad of that. we do not have to be followers of any thing. Well, is a very very long post...i'll think i will hibernate for a while after that, phew.. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:17:53 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <19970614.131706.2263.3.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:38:20 -0400 (EDT) "Patrick Alessandra Jr." writes: > On the contrary in WWII and in general in an imperfect world the >Mahatmas' response is to promote all to adequate self-defense...the >means of the adequacy will change as humanity evolves. We have a book in our Seattle lodge, written by Alice Bailey during World War 2, in which she strongly advocates using force to stop Germany. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:17:53 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <19970614.131706.2263.4.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:24:12 -0400 (EDT) JRC writes: >Or perhaps you are making the typical conservative mistake of >believing the writings of those masters ought to be followed only to the >degree it is convenient. They were all pretty clear about what they >thought the response of good people should be - no, not just pretty >clear, but actually adament. And the response was not weaponry. The spiritual teachers whom I most highly esteem advocate thinking for oneself in order to understand the principles they teach, not blind obedience to their rules. When Peter used a sword to cut off the ear of one of Jesus' attackers, and Jesus told him to put away his sword, since "they who take up the sword will perish by the sword," that did not mean that he thought that taking up the sword, and risking perishing thereby, is wrong in all situations, since there is a record elsewhere of his advocating having a sword (Luke 22:36,38). Spiritually, motive is all-important and morally, results are all-important. Whether physical death is good or bad depends on the situation. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:31:29 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: On past issues (some questioning) Message-ID: <19970614.132955.2263.6.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 15:50:49 -0400 (EDT) "Romero Cortez D.Ma" writes: >On C.W.Leadbeater, the case (accused as a child molester) I believe that CWL was teaching his young male pupils about masturbation, rather than seeking his own pleasure. Annie Besant certainly supported him. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:06:03 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Re: ominousness Message-ID: <199706142209.SAA20641@NetGSI.com> >Here is the important question: Do you believe that there is such a >thing as objective reality? > > Bart Lidofsky Bart, for me, I believe it to be just as real as subjective reality. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:44:16 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <33A31E64.1785@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > Er, we are born with the inalienable right to carry a Smith and Wessen? > What is your definition of "inalienable right? -JRC The idea (with which I may or may not agree) is that each person has the right to carry whatever weapons any other person may carry; that carrying weapons is not a privilege. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:17:34 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Subjective and Objective Message-ID: <19970614.161652.2263.10.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:10:24 -0400 (EDT) "Gerald Schueler" writes: >>Here is the important question: Do you believe that there is such a >>thing as objective reality? >> >> Bart Lidofsky > >Bart, for me, I believe it to be just as real as subjective reality. > > >Jerry S. >Member, TI I look at objective and subjective much differently than this. The term "objective reality" is redundant, and the term "subjective reality" is an oxymoron. All _objects_ of perception, whether physical or not, are _objective_. For example, in self-awareness, the self is both the subject and the object. I believe many people equate what is objective with what is physical and what is subjective with what is non-physical, which is not at all how I look at them. I look at both the physical and the non-physical as both subjective and objective, depending on their context. There is nothing that is not both a subject and an object, assuming there is nothing which does not have consciousness. There is no perception that does not have both a subject and an object, and there is no perception that is purely subjective or purely objective. Opinions are predominantly subjective and facts are predominantly objective, but opinions, to have any validity, must have some connection to objective reality, and facts, necessarily being perceived by a subject, are always subject to error. Facts and opinions are on the same continuum, and they differ only in their degree of mixture of objectivity and subjectivity. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:35:22 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970614233522.00dcc6f4@mail.eden.com> At 04:19 PM 6/14/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:38:20 -0400 (EDT) "Patrick Alessandra Jr." > writes: > >> On the contrary in WWII and in general in an imperfect world the >>Mahatmas' response is to promote all to adequate self-defense...the >>means of the adequacy will change as humanity evolves. > >We have a book in our Seattle lodge, written by Alice Bailey during World >War 2, in which she strongly advocates using force to stop Germany. > It may be interesting to know that during WWII, Krishnaji (a citizen of India) was living in California. When US Government wanted him to help USA in its war efforts in any civilian capacity, Krishnaji refused. He was called before the Draft Board (or its equivalent) to explain his stand. He presented a six page response explaining why he will not participant in *any* manner in the WWII. He was then told to go back to India, as he was a citizen of India. He told the Board that he has no money or other resources and he would gladly return to India if the US Government arranged for his transportation. He was told to stay in CA and not to give any talks and asked to wait until transportation could be found. Till the war ended, they could not find a ship to take him to India. Here is a situation when there was the hysteria to support the war in any manner, he stood by his principles and stood alone in the face of mass thinking. Whether one agrees with K's stand or not, I think it is a remarkable incident. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:52:42 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970614235242.00dce600@mail.eden.com> At 07:31 AM 6/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more >> >mature an nentity than any other nation in the world.... > > Read the summary section of HPB's "Anthropogenisis." > >P > > On this issue, the comment in ML to APS may also be relevant. > > MKR Here is the reference to my above statement: "I told you before now, that the highest people on earth (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race, and those are the Aryan Asiatics; the highest race (physicial intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." ML to APS, 3rd & Revised Edn. Adyar 1962. Letter No. 23B, pp. 151. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:49:18 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Militias and catching up. Message-ID: What a surprise I had when I finally had the oppurtunity to browse through the digests. It seems I had a lot of catching up to do. Also, I have a lot of people to thank for their help. Estrella: I think that what you are doing is wonderful. The only way to stop the oppression is to give resistance to it. I admire your perseverence. I only wish that our government felt the same way that you do. But, I suppose that all of our governments have a lot on their minds. Your proposal for media influence is one of which I have argued with my friends. The only problem with it is that, right now, we have no protection if this local militia catches on to what we are doing. I would appreciate it, though, if you could dig up that address for the international magazine. When the time is right, we are going to bring the media in on this. We made one unsuccessful attempt at educating the media, and would have made more, but we decided that such actions would jeapordize our safety at this time. There will be time for that later. Global concerns: As Estrella has expressed, the U.S. is not the only place with a problem. I believe that the reason why militias in the U.S. stand out so much is that there is not supposed to be any place for oppression here. The government isn't "supposed" to be oppressive. In other countries, however, the government is recognized as oppressive, and it is quite possible that people from other "civilized" (laugh) countries overlook the smaller oppressive organizations. And America, of course, would NEVER admit to being a part of it. I think, with regards to the Americas themselves, the governments really don't give a damn whether or not oppression exists within their midst, so long as it doesn't endanger the government structure or income. As you say, Estrella, the U.S. populous is one of the most uninformed in the world. I don't know much about my own government ( however, I have learned a lot in the past week ) much less another country's. Personally, I want to help annihilate oppression altogether. It may be impossible, true, but in the attempt to achieve such a goal, a lot of good can be done. If we can't eliminate it, we can at least lessen it a great deal. If anyone has such a problem in their community, state, or country, let me know. You can use my personal e-mail if you wish, at triaism@modzer0.uafdorms.alaska.edu. In the U.S. problems such as oppressive militias are easier to combat due to our right to assemble and speak freely. Not all people have that oppurtunity. Some countries have very serious punishments for such actions. On arms control: When it comes to self-defense, and determining the best way to defend oneself, there are many factors to take into consideration. One, are you protected well enough by those who are employed to protect you? Two, do you live in or spend a lot of time in a threatening atmosphere? Three, does your community, state, or country's law enforcement have the resources to help you in a state of emergency? Four, is an "underground" market prevalent and well-established in your area? Five, are their people or groups of people who have reasons, well-founded or not, to harm you? There are others, but I think these are very important. With regards to "One", it is very hard to know if you are being well-protected unless you or someone close to you has needed that protection and did or did not recieve it in a timely manner. In the U.S., people normally do not, due to the exhaustive over-population. The fact is, criminals have guns NOW, and guns can be hidden quite effectively. A law abiding citizen will conform to gun control laws, but a criminal doesn't really give a damn. As someone else said, "it's just another crime to add to their list." "Two", if the news and statistics tell you that your community, state, or country has a high crime rate, and/or a high count of gun-related deaths, it is obvious that criminals have guns and they are using them. It is also obvious that those who are there to protect aren't getting there in time. For you to live or spend time in such a place without having the resources to defend yourself is not only dangerous to you, but foolish. Foolish because if you do get mugged, shot, or killed, the criminals have just had another good reason to keep using their gun. It worked. If you have a gun, and wear it on your hip, you are going to less likely be a target for their benefit. In places with little crime, there isn't really that much of a need for guns and other weapons. If the U.S. were in such a state of affairs, gun-control would be a good "preventative". Gun control cannot fix a problem such as this, but it can prevent it from happening again once the problem has disappeared. "Three", a lot of people don't live very close to a police station, as is the case with my friends. They live out in the woods somewhere, or on a farm, or in an inner-city where the population and crime rates are too high for a timely response.. In this situation, having a gun is like knowing first-aid. It is needed for self-defense in the instance of an emergency situation. If a person knows first-aid, and is involved in a car accident, (s)he will have the knowledge to help the injured until the professionals can arrive. If a person has a gun and knows how to use it, and her/his life is threatened directly (s)he can prevent her own injury or the injury of loved ones, by attempting a "stand-off" with the aggressor. This doesn't mean that the gun has to be used to kill someone. All it takes is a little practice on aim, and you can shoot an aggressor in the leg or arm and go hide until the police show up. The gun is a tool which can be used for death, but if used properly, death can be avoided. "Four", this is probably the biggest problem. In the U.S., it is very easy to smuggle guns, drugs, and other illegal items across state and country borders. They are even smuggled out of military institutions. These weapons and drugs can be bought by anyone for the right price. If the government can't keep their own weapons where they are supposed to be, how are they going to make sure that no one else has any. Gun control in the U.S. right now is a preposterous idea. With regards to the U.K. and/or the rest of Europe, I, as an uninformed American citizen, know very little about its society. Does the U.K. have an underground market? If they do, and I don't mean to make anyone paranoid, then somebody has a gun or a lot of guns that aren't supposed to. I don't think there is a country in the world that does not have an underground market of some sort. But as I said, I am uninformed and ignorant, and I only have my own experiences with which to base my opinions on. My point is, if you have an underground market which is well-established as it is in America, then you had better find out if you need to protect yourself. And if you do, then either, 1) get some protection, or 2) move. And if you can't move, see "1". "Five". This is probably one of the biggest reasons why people own guns and other weapons. In general, it sums up the first four factors I have listed here in that if your life has a possibility of ending, you should do something about it. My reason for giving this fifth factor a lot of importance is this: Guns are not the only things that can be used to kill another person, however, they seem to be quite efficient. Many different people can find many different reasons to want you dead. One of the more prevalent and widely-known reasons for the murder of a person is prejudice. Once again, prejudice is a very general term. There is racial prejudice. There is sexual prejudice. There is prejudice toward sexual orientation. Intellectual prejudice. Class prejudice. These are big ones, however, prejudice can come down to what kind of car you drive, or what color you painted you fingernails. There was an instance here in America where a man was shot and killed for passing gas in the ticket line of a movie theater. (That probably has nothing to do with prejudice, however, this was one of the most ridiculous things I had ever heard). To continue on the prejudice line...for an African-American, there are many dangerous organizations is the U.S. There is the Klu Klux Klan. Fascist militias. Neo-nazi's. And a lot of others, I'm sure, right down to "good christian churches". And these are just organizations. Many people, just personally, hate "black" people so much that they just wait for the chance to kill one. The same goes for homosexuals. The same organizations listed above apply to them as well. Transexuals have this problem. Hermaphrodites. Any "non-white" person will find aggression in the U.S. And what all of this leads to is fear, prejudice, and aggression toward the initial aggressors. Absolutely no-one is safe in this country. Mainly due to racial discrimination both on the side of "whites" and "non-whites". The person standing behind you at the movie theater may have a problem with you and want you dead. Last note on gun-control: As I stated before, gun-control makes for a great preventative, but not a cure. The U.S. would fall apart if the same gun-control laws implemented in the U.K. were introduced here. It would be a disaster. I have to agree that the only choice for the U.S., right now, is to prohibit the sale and use of the "big guns". Automatic weapons, etc. Sure, many criminals can get their hands on these things for now, but when it comes to a thief or assassin breaking into your home, a handgun will do the job. I don't know as of know what the real answer for the U.S. is. But I have to stand behind those who say that upstanding citizens should not have restricted access to tools they may need to protect themselves. If gun-control gets any more strict, the criminals will have won. The militia here in Alaska: My friend has written another letter about CAMO. I shall post it after I send this one. It basically states what CAMO is and what it is not. I'd like to thank everyone for their concern. Estrella, my heart goes out to you and your country. Like I said, I reciprocate your concern and will do what I can to help you. Just let me know what your status is there. Liesel, I thank you for your thoughts and energy, it is being put to good use:). Chuck, I must say I was quite surprised at the seriousness of your replies. If you have any ideas on what can be done both here and globally, please let me know. Alan, I really appreciate your advice and information. Although I don't agree with your very sensible escape theory, your concern for my and my friends' welfare has given us a lot of hope. Thanx again everyone. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:33:18 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: "Spiritual evolution." Message-ID: In message , JRC writes >"Spiritual evolution", (IMO) is a state in which a population has >become so generally appalled at the thought of violence, weapons, and the >glamour of the attacking/defending modality (generated by the brain stem, >not higher thought) that no one is armed, and no one feels the need to be. Which, curiously enough, is the general opinion among UK citizens. >The ideal is *not* a state wherein criminals are as full of fear as the >rest of the citizenry because *everyone's* ready to shoot. Criminals here who use guns would use them whether or not the populace were armed. If we were all armed though, the chance of the criminal shooting first would multiply. Some of them carry them, but as a threat, and they often turn out to be dummy ones. The reason? If they carried real ones, they would get much longer sentences. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:29:39 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: In message , JRC writes > I'm sorry but this whole discussion seems slightly bizarre when I >step back from it - to follow a chain of logic that concludes that when a >nation is finally armed to the teeth ... and almost every citizen has a >weapon - is actually some mark of *spiritual stature*, some ideal that is >a *good*, something to strive for .... well, I guess we've just thrown out >Christ, and Buddha, and Gandhi, and the Dali Lama, and in fact the whole >tenor of most of the greatest teachers our race has ever known. > I've never owned a weapon, and never will. Curiously, I've never >needed one either ... even in Detroit. You made my point better than I can! I owned an air pistol as a kid. I pointed it at a bird sitting on a flagpole (must have been around 1944) not expecting to hit anything. Fluke shot - dead bird - sick me. I dumped the gun, and never touched one again until the Navy taught me to shoot a rifle in 1950. I hope never to touch one again. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:53:00 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Celtic Cross Message-ID: I have uploaded to the website (below) a GIF file of a local Celtic wayside cross, taken this month. It is under "Changing Images" as CCROSS.GIF with CCROSS.TXT in the same folder. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:00:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: On past issues (some questioning) Message-ID: In message <33A2E805.2CFC@bahia.ens.uabc.mx>, "Romero Cortez D.Ma" writes >I still care of you, and of my friends here in theos-l, and consider you >my friend. Your ideas or mine will never make me change my mind. is >true, we have to be critical, and that is the knowledge you taught me. >and i'm very glad of that. we do not have to be followers of any thing. >Well, is a very very long post...i'll think i will hibernate for a while >after that, phew.. >Estrella Thank you. We are best, I think, to be seekers after truth, as the TS motto reminds us. Some of us have published the Leadbeater story because 1. It is theosophical history that 2. the Theosophical Society has kept very quiet about. Very few people today would question his *advice* to young men, and many would applaud it. His actions *towards* them could be another matter, but that is history, not modern theosophical teaching or practice. The importance of bringing some of these matters to light is concerned with his reliability as a source of teaching, as in the case of his claim to clairvoyance, wildly inaccurate in, for example, his description of life on Mars. The intention is to provide information which encourages people to question "authorities" and to discover truth for themselves. "Official" organisations always have "official" versions of things. Take, for instance, the "Life on Mars" matter. The TS published this in the original edition of Vol. II of "The Inner Life" by Leadbeater. In later editions it is missing. This is good inasmuch as it omits the mistaken teaching, but bad inasmuch as the TS does not tell readers of the later editions that Leadbeater got some things wrong, and that they have issued an expurgated version of his work, because, one suspects, readers will wonder, "If he was wrong in a few things, might he not have also been wrong in many?" Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:40:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: USA Message-ID: In message <33A2DE06.5F25@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > Who are the members of the sixth root race? > > Bart Lidofsky Those with membership cards (obtainable from Chuck for a reasonable fee, I have heard). Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:23:14 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Civil war Message-ID: <8Nw+6cAifyozEwyn@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970614145646.00dbd678@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >At 10:22 AM 6/14/97 -0400, Patrick Alessandra Jr. wrote: > Rather than statistical arguments which can be massaged in >>many ways the arms argument is one of essential inainable principle. >>More to the point is not UK but Europe...Bosnia is a perfect example of >>what happens when arms are controlled and people are unable to defend >>themselves. > > Is it not that in Bosnia we had a civil war? Wars are never pretty >and compassinate and peaceful. > >........doss > America had a civil war, too. So did England under Cromwell. In both of the latter at the time, the citizens had the right to bear arms. So they did, and they used them. Theosophists should follow their example? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 01:01:17 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: In message <970614122611_23894377@emout03.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-06-14 00:28:03 EDT, you write: > >>Waco. >> >>Alan > >Soccer fans. > >Chuck the Heretic Still alive. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:20:39 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <8d5+uWAHdyozEwzr@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33A214DC.2F4A@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >> Waco. > > What about it? > > Bart Lidofsky Not an example of the most spiritually developed nation. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:42:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: weapons Message-ID: In message <199706141507.LAA15999@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >>>Shanti, >>>P >> >>Waco. >> >>Alan > >IRA bombings > >Namaste > >Liesel > Paid for by many Americans. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:16:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <5Ni$aQAqZyozEwyM@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970614011012.006fe4ac@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >If any of them were to be instantly >transplanted to say any inner city and see the shooting and kill, they would >be shocked and could not understand why people kill each other. It is perhaps to our discredit that we *do* understand :-( Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:38:05 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Weapons Europe's problems! Message-ID: In message <19970614.103350.2263.0.trr@juno.com>, Tom Robertson writes >When I was discussing the Holocaust in a newsgroup, I asked why didn't >the Jews fight back with guns, and I was told that, unlike so many people >in the United States, it was simply against the tradition of the European >Jews to own such weapons. And I wonder why the Nazis never invaded >Switzerland! I very much doubt that Jews in Hitler's Europe had access to guns. Certainly in Warsaw those that had them used them. No one invaded Switzerland because it was a valuable asset as a spy and communications center, a kind of useful Oasis in the middle of the war. No one in their right mind would have suposed that the amount of weaponry possessed by the Swiss would have bothered the Nazi war machine much! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:09:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: USA Message-ID: <970615000904_-628516801@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-14 21:23:19 EDT, you write: >Those with membership cards (obtainable from Chuck for a reasonable fee, >I have heard). > >Alan :-) NO! NO! NO! We're the Seventh Root Race. The Sixth Root Race is a bunch of potatoes and carrots running around a track. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:24:19 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Words of Wisdom? Message-ID: <199706150424.WAA18750@mailmx.micron.net> Doss offered a quote: > "I told you before now, that the highest people on earth (spiritually) >belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race, and those are the Aryan >Asiatics; the highest race (physicial intellectuality) is the last sub-race >of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." > >ML to APS, 3rd & Revised Edn. Adyar 1962. Letter No. 23B, pp. 151. How can someone who's supposed to be so astute make a blanket statement like that? To begin, it would be way too easy to find "Aryan Asiatics" who are clearly 'unspiritual' and a "white conqueror" who is weak in "physical intellectuality." These kind of statements are prime for misinterpretation. If I were anything other than a "Aryan Asiatic" or a "white conqueror," I'd think Theosophists were a bunch of bedlamites. (!) And dangerous. Either APS misreckoned while transcribing or ML needs to come down from the mountain for awhile - breathing too much rarefied air can make you woozy. What's a "white conqueror" anyway? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:12:05 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Pants on Fire? Message-ID: <199706150512.XAA20988@mailmx.micron.net> Patrick wrote: > ...to paraphrase the famous story: > > "When they came for the Bosnians > I did not fight because I was not Bosnian" > "When they came for the Rwandans > I did not fight because I was not Rwandan" > "When they came for the Irish > I did not fight because I was not Irish" > "When they came to take me away.. > I found that there was no one left who fight for me" This is a perfect and sickening example of how someone will twist something to fit their agenda. Excuse me, P. the Cleric - this is not a poem advocating the use of guns. The message of this poem - in its ORIGINAL language - isn't to "fight" but to "speak" out for those who are persecuted. Maybe if that happened, there wouldn't be any need for guns. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:54:31 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: On past issues (some questioning) Message-ID: <199706150354.VAA16989@mailmx.micron.net> Estrella wrote: >That thing (The CWLeadbeater case) remains me on the Woody Allen issue, >the Michael Jackson issue, those famous cases (Invented or not) that >only serve to make noise and appart our minds on the real and >problematic issues (As gun control, for example) Disagree. I do not believe that these cases "only serve to make noise." Despite the carnival atmosphere that often accompanies these cases, they bring to light the terrible problem of child sexual abuse. When someone 'famous' or 'respected' is accused, it reminds us that these criminal acts are not just the crimes of poor, uneducated, or "crazy" people. > I >do not know if Leadbeater was innocent, but also i do not know if he was >guilty.after all,if it was or wasn't, is a matter of importance only to >him, because is he's karma, we do not have to interfer, especcialy if >the matter was too many years ago. Disagree. We do have to interfere, even if it's not "our" karma. And Leadbeater's guilt matters not "only" to Leadbeater, but to all those he may have hurt (and their families). If we don't stand up, investigate, and, perhaps consequently, face the unpleasant side of some of the people we claim to revere, someone else will. . .and what will that make us? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:36:50 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Militias: new letter Message-ID: As a sympathizer of CAMO (Citizens Against Militant Oppression), I would like to say a few words regarding what they stand for and what they are against. There is a lot that leaves room for misinterpretation of intention. First of all, CAMO is not against militias in general. On the contrary, they praise the many existing militias ( hereafter defined, in my notes, as "true" militias ) which have great concern for the welfare of their people. However, not all militias have that particular concern. Quite a few of them are basically "fascist" organizations which simply have a patriotic motto. These particular militias, hereafter defined ( in my notes ) as fascists, do not care about ALL people. They only care about the ones who fit the profile of their "doctrines" and "perfect races" and can identify with their definition of the "ideal government". To these organizations, all others are worthless, and to many of the fascists, the worthless people of the society should be put to death. True militias have a cause which benefits all people, regardless of race, skin color, religion, sex, or sexual orientation. These militias are here to help ALL OF US. They should not be looked down upon or shunned. The fascists, on the other hand, would like to see most of us dead, or put in slavery. The only people they feel are worth keeping alive and well are those who fit their specific qualifications regarding race, skin color, religion, sex, or sexual orientation. The others, as far as they are concerned, can go to hell. It is these fascist militias that CAMO is against. Please do not confuse their cause and their concerns. It could only lead to a lot of misunderstanding and possibly a lot of violence. Which leads to a second possible misunderstanding. CAMO is not a violently aggressive organization. Although they believe in the U.S. second amendment right to bear arms for protection, they consider the use of those arms to be a LAST resort. In other words, they are not another militia. They are not a pro-arms organization. They are not trying to gather together an armed, anti-fascist force. With regards to the use of weapons, they believe that you shouldn't shoot anyone unless you are about to be shot at. That doesn't mean "if you THINK someone is going to shoot". If you are standing outside your home and someone points a gun at you, THEN you should shoot. They don't believe that, due to paranoia and fear, you should hunt down the accused and kill them. That would make you as unethical as the fascists themselves. This leads to the last thing I want to make clear. CAMO is not an organization which wants to take the law into their own hands. Law enforcement and armed protection of the people should be left to those who are legally allowed to serve and protect. CAMO is simply a voice which wants to wake up the law-enforcement and government agencies, and make them realize that there is a very serious problem developing within their midst. If fascist militias keep growing at the rate they seem to be, it won't be long before our true protectors can no longer protect us in the event of a catastrophe. So CAMO only asks that the people use their voices, and convince their governments that their lives and welfare are being assaulted. If you know of a fascist militia in your area, LET YOUR GOVERNMENT KNOW. If enough people express their concern about a problem, the problem will be fixed. That is really all I have to say for now. I hope that the following letter gives you an idea of what could be happening in your area. I know that this is only one of the many dangers that people face in this world. Some of us are threatened by our own governments. Some of us are threatened by the rise of street gangs in our area. Some of us are threatened by organized crime like the Mafia or the Yakuza. Some of us are threatened by our own families. All of this has one common factor. Oppression. CAMO believes that any kind of oppression can be annihilated if the voice is loud enough to be heard. --- Jaqi. " What is a militia in the United States? Under the second amendment of the Constitution of the United States we have a god-given right to keep and bear arms for our own protection. If not for the right to freely assemble we would not even have a PTA, let alone a militia, and the old addage of every man of 17 years who can hold and use a weapon. But what, really, is a militia? To me, a militia is the secondary force under the uniformed force we already have for the protection of our country and its non-violent civilians. There are several layers of protection for the common people of the United States; The uniformed forces of Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines; Then the secondary uniformed forces, i.e. the National Guard and the Coast Guard; Then the State uniformed forces, i.e. State Guard, Police, Troopers, and Patrol. Then the organized militia, and, finally, the common man. In all of these forces, for the continuing existence of our community, there needs to be one thing that they covet and fight for above all else. The United States Constitution. Here we have what I would call a doctrinated militia, not a constitutional militia. A constitutional militia would fight for the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of all people in the face of oppression from a foreign body, or even an oppressive government from within. But what we have is a militia that is only for its own gain, it's own purposes, and its own agenda. A doctrinated militia has two things in mind: 1) Ethnic cleansing. To remove any who would "non-white" and/or non-"christian". That means if you don't look like them or believe in the doctrines which they believe in, you will be killed, period. 2) If the United States should splinter into warring factions, the militia would come in and initiate their own law and order and establish itself and the "new government" for the state. Who could stop them? Their power is now enough to give pause to the National Guard, the Police, several areas of local government, and many a complacent citizen. Fear is their weapon of choice. I did a small thing which angered them, and even now their stalking continues. To look over your shoulder and perhaps see one ...a watchman in a truck in front of you on the road to signal to the hidden man with the rifle a verification that it is you in a confirmation to shoot ...to sleep at different places each night, waiting for the final shot in the dark. For the world-wide education of the people with regards to unethical and oppressive militias. CAMO (Citizens Against Militant Oppression) " From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:41:10 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Civil war Message-ID: <33A39C95.27BB@earthlink.net> > America had a civil war, too. So did England under Cromwell. In both > of the latter at the time, the citizens had the right to bear arms. So > they did, and they used them. Theosophists should follow their example? These are not comparable...should we have capitulated to Hitler and allowed the slaughter of humanity? P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 15:15:49 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <33A2FBF2.53E@earthlink.net> > We have a book in our Seattle lodge, written by Alice Bailey during World > War 2, in which she strongly advocates using force to stop Germany. Yea verily, the position of the M's is that, of course, everything should be done for peace, but today the continuance of civilization in which chela's can safely move requires that we win the battle (transmuting the fates of Lemuria &Atlantis) and the use of physical plane methods are just as divine as any other. George Patton, D. Eisenhauer, etc., all servers of good. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 03:19:58 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Civil war 2 Message-ID: <33A3A5A6.618A@earthlink.net> > America had a civil war, too. So did England under Cromwell. In both > of the latter at the time, the citizens had the right to bear arms. So > they did, and they used them. Theosophists should follow their example? Wars are caused by unequal taxation and one side being a dictatorship with the other side being militarily weaker. The solution is to eliminate taxes and have the democratic based nations always militarily stronger, fostering freedom and protection of basic rights throughout the world. This should be the focus of the UN. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:04:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Cain Subject: Re: Weapons Europe's problems! Message-ID: <199706151104.HAA07050@katie.vnet.net> > > >When I was discussing the Holocaust in a newsgroup, I asked why didn't > >the Jews fight back with guns, and I was told that, unlike so many people > >in the United States, it was simply against the tradition of the European > >Jews to own such weapons. And I wonder why the Nazis never invaded > >Switzerland! > > I very much doubt that Jews in Hitler's Europe had access to guns. > Certainly in Warsaw those that had them used them. In March 18 1938 Germany passed a law requiring the registration of all guns. A group of Jews in Warsaw were belived to own unregestared guns. this was the reson given for begining of the Warsaw Massacar. The Jews were labaled as terrerist. Because of 3 or 4 weapons were found on the burnd out wreckage of this area of Warsaw, in November of 1938 Jews were forbiden to own guns. April 20, 1928 law required a person to show idenification to purchase ammunition. March 28, 1931 law makes the unautherised use of a whepon a crime agenst the state. Remember " War is the health of the State. " ( war on drugs, war on poverty, cold war, are all the same for the central goverment ) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:16:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Cain Subject: Re: Principles of Freedom Message-ID: <199706151116.HAA07126@katie.vnet.net> > an acceptance and protection of inalienable rights by gov'ts. If for The only one who can reduce thes rights is the gov'ts, you have it backwards, > example the U.N. made it's focus the protection of such rights The UN disarmed Bosnian Muslims and promised to protect the from the Surbs. No one cares more about you than you do. Defend your own rights. (rather > than resource re-distribution) the many issues would resolve > themselves. An article on this relevant to the issues we have been > discussing (war, economics, etc.) is at > > http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html > > Shanti, > P > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 05:02:38 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Principles of Freedom Message-ID: <33A3BDBB.192F@earthlink.net> > The only one who can reduce thes rights is the gov'ts, you have it > backwards, > > example the U.N. made it's focus the protection of such rights > The UN disarmed Bosnian Muslims and promised to protect the from the > Surbs. No one cares more about you than you do. Defend your own rights. Yes, I agree with what you are saying...more essentially the only role for coercive power (gov't) is the enforcement of the protection of rights. Absolutely we each are entitled to protect our own rights. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 03:23:47 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Civilization & Year 2000 software Message-ID: <33A3A68B.34A8@earthlink.net> With the coming computer crash of the year 2000 (ref all the "00" software legacy code floating around, particularly in gov't computers) our civilization certainly will have an opportunity to adapt very quickly...(like int'l currency exchanges may go bannanas). - Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 08:23:34 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Guns in Singapore Message-ID: <19970615.052246.13095.0.trr@juno.com> I asked the following question in the newsgroup soc.culture.singapore: -> From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) -> -> I watched a documentary on Singapore years ago, and I was left with -> the impression that it was very authoritarian, clean, and peaceful. -> What are the gun laws in Singapore? Have they effectively kept -> criminals from having them, so that non-criminals don't need them? [ Via EDTec Anon Remail Service: ] answered: Possession of firearms or ammunition is a life sentence. Using it - mandatory death sentence. No need for guns here, as there is nothing to hunt. Of all the silly policies that PAP throws at us, this is only one of the few that I support. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:00:14 GMT From: "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." Message-ID: <199706151300.NAA28665@rvik.ismennt.is> Hi friends. I have been prepairing a workshop for our Summer School in Iceland, and for that purpose I am mining in some published and unpublished writings of Mr. Sigvaldi Hjalmarsson, my "guru" and mentor from the time I entered the TS until his death a decade ago. I have always wanted to share his writings with somewhat wider international circle of spiritual seekers than is available here in Iceland becaus of the language barrier. For this purpose I would like to make an experiment by inviting those that would like his style of practical spiritual advisory to "subscribe" to short selected passages translated from his writings. Bacause of obvious copyright reasons this has to be on a person to person basis, although I am confident that he would not have minded a wider publishity for his teachings. For the same reason I would like to invite to a person to person discussion about the subjects in hand - BUT - I will not argue, or indulge in arguments, on the truth or falseness of his points of view. In general I think that argumenting in gegneral is utterly futile "game of the mind" and in particular when S.H. is concerned my experience was that when I didn´t understand some points, and invited myself to a discussion with him, I always came painfully aware of how little i knew and how profound his understanding was when it came to the mystical and esoteric realms. In my opinion it is of paramount importance, when studying spiritual matters, to rely ONLY on ones own "discrimination" and "momentous intuivity". One should never believe in anything one reads or hears or thinks or believes! Words can never convey the truth - they can point to "A truth" or an understanding within the receiver, but without such "momentous insights" words and concepts are only emty containers, a mere figments of the mind. Truth - or real understanding - is also always momentous and therefore non-memorable. Memories of truth is never the truth. So, if you are still interested, then drop me a line and we will se if somthing can be worked out. From the Spiritual Well of S.H. "The conscious process is movement, and the body is more closely in contact with the consciousness if it is not static. The yogis in India were, and still are, moving about a lot. They walked from village to village, often travelling 5 hours a day, or more. All thinkers have been great walkers and also all yogis. One should walk in a natural way, neither fast nor slow, and the consciousness is then in a meditative state. During the walking there will emerge a relaxed and light or exalted feeling, together with bodily fatigue, which also is in a mysterious way wakeful for the spirit. Similarily it's my suspicion that it's necessary sometimes to be hungry. Here in the West we are never really hungry, on the contrary, we are often full, even overfilled, which is tremendously dulling for the psyche. He who doesn't wish to starve from time to time, should never eat so that he feels quite full, and perhaps that is the best way." (from hssh #39) There is also some reading by H.S. at the TS HomePage, URL: http://www.itn.is/~theosoph/english With LOVE to you all. Einar from Iceland. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Let's change the world to the better, by each of us changing ourselves, TOGETHER. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:00:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom? Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > Doss offered a quote: > > > "I told you before now, that the highest people on earth (spiritually) > >belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race, and those are the Aryan > >Asiatics; the highest race (physicial intellectuality) is the last sub-race > >of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." > > > >ML to APS, 3rd & Revised Edn. Adyar 1962. Letter No. 23B, pp. 151. > > > How can someone who's supposed to be so astute make a blanket statement like > that? To begin, it would be way too easy to find "Aryan Asiatics" who are > clearly 'unspiritual' and a "white conqueror" who is weak in "physical > intellectuality." > > These kind of statements are prime for misinterpretation. If I were > anything other than a "Aryan Asiatic" or a "white conqueror," I'd think > Theosophists were a bunch of bedlamites. (!) And dangerous. > > Either APS misreckoned while transcribing or ML needs to come down from the > mountain for awhile - breathing too much rarefied air can make you woozy. > > What's a "white conqueror" anyway? > > > Kym > > > The above quote was posted because P stated that this country is the most spiritual nation in the world. His source was SD. Each one of us should come to their own conclusion. This reminds me of the one of the basic problems in all our actions is comparison -- why compare? ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:59:42 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Guns in Singapore Message-ID: <33A3D91D.6A04@earthlink.net> > Possession of firearms or ammunition is a life sentence. Using > it - mandatory death sentence. Yes...for stat comparison to the U.S. as a test of the effectiveness of gun laws we would need to find or combine areas which are demographically matched with Singapore...quite a task Many relatively homogenous areas have little if any crimne from within...the key for nations like Singapore is what they would do if China invaded...depend on US? They would be better off for the long term having a citizenry militia state as was originally set up in the USA. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:17:38 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom? Message-ID: <33A3DD4C.7B69@earthlink.net> > The above quote was posted because P stated that this country is the most > spiritual nation in the world. His source was SD. Yes...actually I made that statement after someone referred to theUS as an immature nation...the SD is one source... > Each one of us should come to their own conclusion. Yes...the MH letters, are full, of course, of right wisdom but make an incomplete presentation as to these issues (national, racial evolution, etc.). Thus we have the SD. [also many letters I believe were written by HPB herself (only a few are geniunely from a Mahatma) ..but this is a topic for theos-roots :) ] Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:28:07 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Year 2000 planetary alignments... Message-ID: <33A3DFBF.3592@earthlink.net> from newsgroup discussions: "Actually, this may be common knowledge by now, but an alignment of solar, lunar and planetary bodies will be occurring in 2000. The sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth and it's moon, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn will all be lined up in a row. I'm not sure if the moon will be on the same side as the sun when this occurs or not, but either way, the effects will be felt worldwide. "As we all know, high and low tides depend on the position of the moon, since the gravitational pull of the moon is what causes them. "The effects of this will obviously be a drastic rise in the level of water in the oceans. Keep in mind that this ice mass is three miles thick and is as large as the United States and Canada combined, so this kind of water rise is believable. Some sources suggest that Dallas, Texas will be a seaport. This, of course, will leave Houston a little on the moist side. "Although I have not heard or read this anywhere, I find it quite possible that this alignment could also pull our artificial satellites out of their geostationary orbit, thereby rendering modern intercontinental communications useless, as well as the overseas internet information." P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:08:53 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970615160853.006fafe0@mail.eden.com> At 10:00 AM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > >> Doss offered a quote: >> >> > "I told you before now, that the highest people on earth (spiritually) >> >belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race, and those are the Aryan >> >Asiatics; the highest race (physicial intellectuality) is the last sub-race >> >of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." >> > >> >ML to APS, 3rd & Revised Edn. Adyar 1962. Letter No. 23B, pp. 151. >> >> >> How can someone who's supposed to be so astute make a blanket statement like >> that? To begin, it would be way too easy to find "Aryan Asiatics" who are >> clearly 'unspiritual' and a "white conqueror" who is weak in "physical >> intellectuality." >> >> These kind of statements are prime for misinterpretation. If I were >> anything other than a "Aryan Asiatic" or a "white conqueror," I'd think >> Theosophists were a bunch of bedlamites. (!) And dangerous. >> >> Either APS misreckoned while transcribing or ML needs to come down from the >> mountain for awhile - breathing too much rarefied air can make you woozy. >> >> What's a "white conqueror" anyway? >> >> >> Kym >> >> >> >The above quote was posted because P stated that this country is the most >spiritual nation in the world. His source was SD. > >Each one of us should come to their own conclusion. > >This reminds me of the one of the basic problems in all our actions is >comparison -- why compare? > >...........doss > Having addressed the topic, here is another quote: You may be, and most assuredly are our superiors in every branch of physical knowledge; in spiritual sciences we were, are and always will be your -- MASTERS. (ML-28) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:28:27 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom? Message-ID: <33A3FBD5.42B9@earthlink.net> > Having addressed the topic, here is another quote: > > You may be, and most assuredly are our superiors in every branch of physical > > knowledge; in spiritual sciences we were, are and always will be your -- Fascinating...one of the realms of research are the many references as to the technologies of Atlantis which were supposedly provided by the Mahatma's of the time...I believe the Cayce writings that paul is researching have many references to such... P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:39:07 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom? (Part 2 of 2) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970615163907.0075c2f8@mail.eden.com> Part 2 of 2 - ML28 . . You merely want it as a lure to your native brethren. You know it will be a sham, but it will look sufficiently like the real thing," etc., etc. This is a direct and positive accusation. I am shown guilty of the pursuit of a wicked, mean object through low and contemptible means, i.e., false pretences. . . . In penning these accusations did you stop to think, that as the projected organization had something grander, nobler and far more important in view than the mere gratification of the desires of one solitary person -- however worthy -- namely in case of success to promote the security and welfare of a whole conquered nation -- it is just barely possible that that which to your individual pride may appear a "low motive" is after all but the anxious search for means which would be the salvation of a whole country ever distrusted and suspected, the protection by the conqueror of the conquered! You pride yourself upon not being a "patriot" -- I do not; for, in learning to love one's country one but learns to love humanity the more. The lack of that you term "low motives" in 1857 caused my country-men to be blown by yours from the mouths of their guns. Why then should I not fancy that a real philanthropist would regard the aspiration for a better understanding between the Govt. and people of India as a most commendable instead of an ignoble one? "A fig" say you "for the knowledge and the philosophy on which it is based," if -- "it would not be of any good to mankind," would not "enable me to be more useful to my generation," etc. etc. But when you are offered the means of doing such good you turn away in scorn and taunt us with a "lure" and a "sham"! Truly wonderful are the contradictions contained in your remarkable letter. . . . And then, you laugh so heartily at the idea of a "reward" or the approval "of your fellow-creatures." The reward to which I shall look will be," you say -- "in earning my own self-approval." "Self-approval" which cares so little for the corroborative verdict of the better part of the world at large, to which the good and noble deeds of one serve as high ideals and the most powerful stimulants to emulation, is little else than proud and arrogant egotism. It is HIMSELF against all criticsm; "apres moi -- le deluge"! -- exclaims the Frenchman with his usual flippancy. "Before Jehovah was, I AM"! says Man -- the ideal of every modern intellectual Englishman. Gratified as I feel at the idea of being the means of affording you so much merriment, namely in asking you to draft a general plan for the formation of the A.I. Branch, I yet am bound to say again that your laugh was premature in as much you once more misunderstood entirely my meaning. Had I asked for your help in the organization of a system for teaching the occult sciences, or a plan for a "school of magick" the instance brought by you of an ignorant boy asked to work out "an abstruse problem regarding the motion of a fluid inside another fluid" might be a happy one. As it is, your comparison falls short of the mark and the bit of irony hits no one; for my mentioning the subject related merely to the general plan and outward administration of the projected Society and not in the least to its esoteric studies; to the Branch of the Universal Brotherhood not to the "School of Magick" -- the formation of the former being the sine qua non for the latter. Most assuredly in such matter as this one -- the organization of an A.I. Branch, to be composed of Englishmen and meant to serve as a link between the British and the natives -- (the condition being that they who want to share in the secret knowledge, the inheritance of the children of the soil, must be prepared to accord at least some privileges hitherto refused to these natives) -- you English people are far more competent than we to draft a general plan. You know the conditions you would be likely to accept or reject as we might not. I asked for a skeleton plan, and you imagined I clamoured for co-operation in the instructions to be given in spiritual sciences! Most unfortunate qui pro quo -- and yet Mr. Sinnett seems to have understood my wish at a glance. Again you seem to show an unfamiliarity with the Hindu mind when you say: "not one in ten thousand native minds is as well prepared to realize and assimilate transcendental truths as mine." However much you may be right in thinking that "amongst English men of Science there are not half a dozen even whose minds are more capable of receiving these rudiments (of occult knowledge) than mine" (yours) -- you are mistaken as to the natives. The Hindu mind is pre-eminently open to the quick and clear perception of the most transcendental, the most abstruse metaphysical truths. Some of the most unlettered ones will seize at a glance that which would often escape the best Western metaphysician. You may be, and most assuredly are our superiors in every branch of physical knowledge; in spiritual sciences we were, are and always will be your -- MASTERS. But let me ask you, what can I, a half civilized native, -- think of the charity, modesty and kindness of one belonging to a superior race; one, whom I know as a noble minded, just, and kind hearted man in most circumstances, of his life, when, with all ill-disguised scorn he exclaims: "if you want men to rush on blind-fold, heedless of ulterior results (1) -- stick to your Olcotts -- if you want men of a HIGHER CLASS, whose brains are to work effectually in your cause, remember . . ." etc. My dear Sir, we neither want men to rush on blind-fold, nor are we prepared to abandon tried friends -- who rather pass for fools, than reveal what they may have learnt under a solemn pledge of never revealing it unless permitted -- even for the chance of getting men of the very highest class, -- nor are we especially anxious to have anyone work for us except with entire spontaneity. We want true and unselfish hearts; fearless and confiding souls, and are quite willing to leave the men of the "higher class" and far higher intellects to grope their own way to the light. Such will only look upon us as subordinates. I believe that these few quotations from your letter and the frank answers they have called forth, are sufficient to show how far we are from anything like an entente cordiale. You show a spirit of fierce combativeness and a desire -- pardon me -- to fight shadows evoked by your own imagination. I had the honour of receiving three long letters from you even before I had barely time to answer in general terms your first one. I had never positively refused to comply with your wishes, never had answered as yet one single question of yours. How did you know what Future held in store for you, had you but waited one week? You invite me to a conference only, as it would seem, that you may show me the defects and weaknesses in our modes of action, and the causes for our supposed failure to convert humanity from their evil ways. And in your letter you show plainly that you are the beginning, the middle and the end of the law to yourself. Then why trouble yourself to write to me at all? Even that, which you call a "Parthian arrow" was never meant as such. It is not I, who, unable to get the absolute will depreciate or undervalue the relative good. Your "little birds" have, no doubt, since you so believe, done much good in their way and I certainly never dreamt of giving offence by my remark that the human race and its welfare, were at least as noble a study, and the latter as desirable an occupation as ornithology. But, I am not quite sure that your parting remark as to our not being invulnerable as a body is quite free of that spirit which animated the retreating Parthians. Be it as it may, we are content to live as we do -- unknown and undisturbed by a civilization which rests so exclusively upon intellect. Nor do we feel in any way concerned about the revival of our ancient arts and high civilization, for these are as sure to come back in their time, and in a higher form as the Plesiosaurus and the Megatherium in theirs. We have the weakness to believe in ever recurrent cycles and hope to quicken the resurrection of what is past and gone. We could not impede it even if we would. The "new civilization" will be but the child of the old one, and we have but to leave the eternal law to take its own course to have our dead ones come out of their graves; yet, we are certainly anxious to hasten the welcome event. Fear not; although we do "cling superstitiously to the relics of the Past" our knowledge will not pass away from the sight of man. It is the "gift of the gods" and the most precious relic of all. The keepers of the sacred Light did not safely cross so many ages but to find themselves wrecked on the rocks of modern scepticism. Our pilots are too experienced sailors to allow us [to] fear any such disaster. We will always find volunteers to replace the tired sentries, and the world, bad as it is in its present state of transitory period, can yet furnish us with a few men now and then. You "do not propose moving further in the matter" unless we make "some further sign"? My dear sir, we have done our duty: we have responded to your appeal, and now propose to take no further step. We, who have studied a little Kant's moral teachings, analyzed them somewhat carefully, have come to the conclusion that even this great thinker's views on that form of duty (das Sollen) which defines the methods of moral action -- notwithstanding his one-sided affirmation to the contrary -- falls short of a full definition of an unconditional absolute principle of morality -- as we understand it. And this Kantian note sounds throughout your letter. You so love mankind, you say, that were not your generation to benefit by it, you would reject "Knowledge" itself. And yet, this philanthropic feeling does not even seem to inspire you with charity towards those you regard as of an inferior intelligence. Why? Simply because the philanthropy you Western thinkers boast of, having no character of universality; i.e. never having been established on the firm footing of a moral, universal principle; never having risen higher than theoretical talk; and that chiefly among the ubiquitous Protestant preachers, it is but a mere accidental manifestation but no recognised LAW. The most superficial analysis will show, that, no more than any other empirical phenomenon in human nature, can it be taken as an absolute standard of moral activity; i.e. one productive of efficient action. Since, in its empirical nature this kind of philanthropy is like love, but something accidental, exceptional, and like that has its selfish preferences and affinities; it necessarily is unable to warm all mankind with its beneficent rays. This, I think is, the secret of the spiritual failure and unconscious egotism of this age. And you, otherwise a good and a wise man, being unconsciously to yourself the type of its spirit, are unable to understand our ideas upon the Society as a Universal Brotherhood, and hence -- turn away your face from it. Your conscience revolts you say to be made "a stalking horse; the puppet of a score or more of hidden wire-pullers." What do you know of us since you cannot see us; what do you know of our aims and objects; of us, of whom you cannot judge? . . . you ask. Strange arguments. And do you really suppose you would "know" us, or penetrate any better our "aims and objects" were you to see me personally? I am afraid, that with no past experience of this kind, even your natural powers of observation -- however acute -- would have to be confessed more than useless. Why, my dear Sir, even our Baharoopias can prove a match any day for the acutest political Resident; and never yet one was detected or even recognised; and their mesmeric powers are not of the highest order. However suspicious you might ever feel about the details of the "brooch" there is one prime feature in the case which your astuteness has already told you can only be accounted for on the theory of a stronger will influencing Mrs. Hume to think after that particular object and no other. And if Mad. B., a sickly woman, must be credited with such powers, are you quite sure that you yourself would not also be made to succumb to a trained will, ten times stronger than hers? I could come to you to-morrow, and installing myself in your house -- as invited -- get an entire domination over your whole mind and body in 24 hours, and you never aware of it for one moment. I may be a good man, but so I may, for all you know, as easily be a wicked, plotting schemer, hating profoundly your white race which subjugated and daily humiliates mine, and -- take revenge on you -- one of the best representatives of that race. If the power of exoteric mesmerism alone were employed -- a power acquired with equal ease by the bad as by the good man -- even then you could hardly escape the snares laid out for you, were the man you invited but a good mesmeriser, for -- you are a remarkably easy subject -- from the physical stand-point. "But my conscience my intuition!" you may argue. Poor help in such a case as mine. Your intuition would make you feel but that which really was -- for the time being; and as to your conscience -- you then accept Kant's definition of it? You, perhaps, believe with him that under all circumstances, and even with the full absence of definite religious notions, and occasionally even with no firm notions about right and wrong at all, MAN has ever a sure guide in his own inner moral perceptions or -- conscience? The greatest of mistakes! With all the formidable importance of this moral factor, it has one radical defect. Conscience as it was already remarked may be well compared to that demon, whose dictates were so zealously listened to and so promptly obeyed by Socrates. Like that demon, conscience, may perchance, tell us what we must not do; yet, it never guides us as to what we ought to perform, nor gives any definite object to our activity. And -- nothing can be more easily lulled to sleep and even completely paralyzed, as this same conscience by a trained will stronger than that of its possessor. Your conscience will NEVER show you whether the mesmeriser is a true adept or a very clever juggler, if he once has passed your threshold and got control of the aura surrounding your person. You speak of abstaining from any but an innocent work like bird-collecting, lest there be danger of creating another Frankenstein's monster. . . . Imagination as well as will -- creates. Suspicion is the most powerful provocative agent of imagination. . . . Beware! You have already begotten in you the germ of a future hideous monster, and instead of the realization of your purest and highest ideals you may one day evoke a phantom, which, barring every passage of light will leave you in worse darkness than before, and, will harass you to the end of your days. Again expressing the hope that my candour may not give offence, I am, dear Sir, as ever, Your most obedient Servant, Koot' Hoomi Lal Sing A. O. Hume, Esq. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:39:19 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom? (Part 1 of 2) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970615163919.006b562c@mail.eden.com> At 10:00 AM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > >> Doss offered a quote: >> >> > "I told you before now, that the highest people on earth (spiritually) >> >belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race, and those are the Aryan >> >Asiatics; the highest race (physicial intellectuality) is the last sub-race >> >of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." >> > >> >ML to APS, 3rd & Revised Edn. Adyar 1962. Letter No. 23B, pp. 151. >> >> >> How can someone who's supposed to be so astute make a blanket statement like >> that? To begin, it would be way too easy to find "Aryan Asiatics" who are >> clearly 'unspiritual' and a "white conqueror" who is weak in "physical >> intellectuality." >> >> These kind of statements are prime for misinterpretation. If I were >> anything other than a "Aryan Asiatic" or a "white conqueror," I'd think >> Theosophists were a bunch of bedlamites. (!) And dangerous. >> >> Either APS misreckoned while transcribing or ML needs to come down from the >> mountain for awhile - breathing too much rarefied air can make you woozy. >> >> What's a "white conqueror" anyway? >> >> >> Kym >> >> >> >The above quote was posted because P stated that this country is the most >spiritual nation in the world. His source was SD. > >Each one of us should come to their own conclusion. > >This reminds me of the one of the basic problems in all our actions is >comparison -- why compare? > >...........doss > Having addressed the topic, here is another quote: You may be, and most assuredly are our superiors in every branch of physical knowledge; in spiritual sciences we were, are and always will be your -- MASTERS. (ML-28) The full text of the letter is quoted below. (Posted in 2 parts due to length) ============- Letter No. 28 My dear Sir, If no other good ever came of our correspondence than that of showing us once more how essentially opposed are our two antagonistic elements -- the English and the Hindu, our few letters will not have been exchanged in vain. Sooner can oil and water mingle their particles than an Englishman -- however intelligent, noble-minded and sincere to be made to assimilate even the exoteric Hindu thought, let alone its esoteric spirit. This will, of course provoke you to a smile. You will say -- "I expected this." So be it. But if so, it shows no more than the perspicacity of a man of thought and observation who intuitively anticipated an event which his own attitude must precipitate. . . . You will pardon me if I have to speak frankly and sincerely of your long letter. However cogent its logic, noble some of its ideas, ardent its aspiration, it yet lies here before me a very mirror of that spirit of this age, against which we have fought during our whole lives! At best it is the unsuccessful endeavour of an acute intellect trained in the ways of an exoteric world, to throw light on, and judge of the modes of life and thought in which it is unversed, for they belong to quite a different world from that it deals with. You are no man of petty vanities. To you it is safe to say: "My dear friend, apart from all this, study your letter impartially; weigh some of its sentences, and on the whole you will not feel proud of it." Whether or not you will ever fully appreciate my motives, or misconceive the true causes which make me decline for the present any further correspondence, I yet am confident that some day you will confess that this last letter of yours under the garb of a noble humility, of confessions of "weaknesses and failings, shortcomings and follies" was yet -- no doubt quite unconsciously to yourself -- a monument of pride, the loud echo of that haughty and imperative spirit which lurks at the bottom of every Englishman's heart. In your present state of mind, very likely even after reading this answer, you will hardly perceive, that not only have you entirely failed to understand the spirit in which my last letter was written to you, but even, in some instances to catch its evident sense. You were preoccupied by one single, all-absorbing idea: and, failing to detect any direct reply to it in my answer, before taking time to think it over, and see its general not personal applicability, you sat down and accused me right away of giving you a stone when you asked for bread! No need of being "a lawyer" in this or any previous existence to state simple facts. No need to "make the bad appear the better cause" when truth is so very simple and so easily told. My remark -- "you take up the position that unless a proficient in arcane knowledge will waste upon your embryonic Society an energy . . ." etc: -- you applied to yourself, whereas it was never so meant. It related to the expectations of all those who might desire to join the Society under certain conditions exacted before-hand and that were firmly insisted upon, by yourself and Mr. Sinnett. The letter as a whole was meant for you two, and this special sentence applied to all in general. You say that I have "to a certain extent mistaken" your "position," and that I "clearly misunderstand" you. This is so evidently incorrect that it will suffice for me to quote a single paragraph from your letter to show that it is you who have entirely "mistaken my position" and "clearly misunderstood me." What else do you do but labour under an erroneous impression, when, in your eagerness to repudiate the idea of having ever dreamt of originating a "school" you say of the proposed "Anglo-Indian Branch" -- "it is no Society of mine. . . . I understood it to be the wish of yourself and chiefs that the Society should be started and that I should assume a leading position in it." To this I replied that if it has been constantly our wish to spread on the Western Continent among the foremost educated classes "Branches" of the T.S. as the harbingers of a Universal Brotherhood it was not so in your case. We (the Chiefs and I) entirely repudiate the idea that such was our hope (however we might wish it) in regard to the projected A.I. Society. The aspiration for brotherhood between our races met no response -- nay, it was pooh-poohed from the first -- and so, was abandoned even before I had received Mr. Sinnett's first letter. On his part and from the start, the idea was solely to promote the formation of a kind of club or "school of magic." It was then no "proposal" of ours, nor were we the "designers of the scheme." Why then such efforts to show us in the wrong? It was Mad. B. -- not we, who originated the idea; and it was Mr. Sinnett who took it up. Notwithstanding his frank and honest admission to the effect that being unable to grasp the basic idea of Universal Brotherhood of the Parent Society, his aim was but to cultivate the study of occult Sciences, an admission which ought to have stopped at once every further importunity on her part, she first succeeded in getting the consent -- a very reluctant one I must say -- of her own direct chief, and then my promise of co-operation -- as far as I could go. Finally, through my mediation, she got that of our highest CHIEF, to whom I submitted the first letter you honoured me with. But, this consent, you will please bear in mind, was obtained solely under the express and unalterable condition that the new Society should be founded as a Branch of the Universal Brotherhood, and among its members, a few elect men would -- if they chose to submit to our conditions, instead of dictating theirs -- be allowed to BEGIN the study of the occult sciences under the written directions of a "Brother." But a "hot-bed of magick" we never dreamt of. Such an organization as mapped out by Mr. Sinnett and yourself is unthinkable among Europeans; and, it has become next to impossible even in India -- unless you are prepared to climb to a height of 18,000 to 20,000 amidst the glaciers of the Himalayas. The greatest as well as most promising of such schools in Europe, the last attempt in this direction, -- failed most signally some 20 years ago in London. It was the secret school for the practical teaching of magick, founded under the name of a club, by a dozen of enthusiasts under the leadership of Lord Lytton's father. He had collected together for the purpose, the most ardent and enterprising as well as some of the most advanced scholars in mesmerism and "ceremonial magick," such as Eliphas Levi, Regazzoni, and the Kopt Zergvan-Bey. And yet in the pestilent London atmosphere the "Club" came to an untimely end. I visited it about half a dozen of times, and perceived from the first that there was and could be nothing in it. And this is also the reason why, the British T.S. does not progress one step practically. They are of the Universal Brotherhood but in name, and gravitate at best towards Quietism -- that utter paralysis of the Soul. They are intensely selfish in their aspirations and will get but the reward of their selfishness. Nor did we begin the correspondence upon this subject. It was Mr. Sinnett who, of his own motion addressed to a "Brother" two long letters, even before Mad. B. had obtained either permission or promise from any of us to answer him, or knew to whom of us to deliver his letter. Her own chief having refused point blank to correspond, it was to me that she applied. Moved by regard for her, I consented even telling her she might give you all my Thibetan mystic name, and -- I answered our friend's letter. Then came yours -- as unexpectedly. You did not even know my name! But your first letter was so sincere, its spirit so promising, the possibilities it opened for doing general good seemed so great, that if, I did not shout Eureka after reading it, and thrown my Diogenes' lantern into the bushes at once, it was only because I knew too well human and -- you must excuse me -- Western nature. Unable, nevertheless, to undervalue the importance of this letter I carried it to our venerable Chief. All I could obtain from Him, though, was the permission to temporarily correspond, and let you speak your whole mind, before giving any definite promise. We are not gods, and even they, our chiefs -- they hope. Human nature is unfathomable, and yours is perhaps, more intensely so than any other man I know of. Your last favour was certainly if not quite a world of revelation, at least, a very profitable addition to my store of observation of the Western character, especially that of the modern, highly intellectual Anglo-Saxon. But it would be a revelation, indeed, to Mad. B. who did not see it, (and for various reasons had better not) for it might knock off much of her presumption and faith in her own powers of observation. It might prove to her among other things that she was as much mistaken in relation to Mr. Sinnett's attitude in this matter as your own; and that I, who had never had the privilege of your personal acquaintance as she had, knew you far better than she did. I had positively foretold to her your letter. Rather than have no Society at all, she was willing to have it upon any terms at first, and then take her chances afterwards. I had warned her that you were not a man to submit to any conditions but your own; or even take one step towards the foundation of an organization -- however noble and great -- unless you received first such proofs as we generally give but to those, who by a trial of years have proved themselves thoroughly trustworthy. She rebelled against the notion and assured that were I but to give you one unimpeachable test of occult powers you would be satisfied, whereas Mr. Sinnett never would. And now, that both of you have had such proofs what are the results? While Mr. Sinnett believes -- and will never repent of it, you have allowed your mind to become gradually filled with odious doubts and most insulting suspicions. If you will kindly remember my first short note from Jhelum you will see to what I then referred in saying that you would find your mind poisoned. You misunderstood me then as you have ever since; for in it, I did not refer to C. Olcott's letter in the Bombay Gazette but to your own state of mind. Was I wrong? You not only doubt the "broach phenomenon" -- you positively disbelieve it. You say to Mad. B. -- that she may be one of those who believe that bad means are justified by good ends and -- instead of crushing her with all the scorn such an action is sure to awaken in a man of your high principles -- you assure her of your unalterable friendship. Even your letter to me is full of the same suspicious spirit, and that which you would never forgive in yourself -- the crime of deception -- you try to make yourself believe you can forgive in another person. My dear Sir, these are strange contradictions! Having favoured me with such a series of priceless moral reflexions, advice, and truly noble sentiments, you may perhaps, allow me in my turn, to give you the ideas of an humble apostle of Truth, an obscure Hindu, upon that point. As man is a creature born with a free will and endowed with reason, whence spring all his notions of right and wrong, he does not per se represent any definite moral ideal. The conception of morality in general relates first of all to the object or motive, and only then to the means or modes of action. Hence, if we do not and would never call a moral man him, who following the rule of a famous religious schemer uses bad means for a good object, how much less would we call him moral who uses seemingly good and noble means to achieve a decidedly wicked or contemptible object? And according to your logic, and once that you confess to such suspicions, Mad. B. would have to be placed in the first of these categories, and I in the second. For, while giving her to a certain extent the benefit of the doubt, with myself you use no such superfluous precautions and, you accuse me unequivocally of setting up a system of deceit. The argument used in my letter, in regard to "the approbation of the Home Government" you term as "such very low motives"; and you add to it the following crushing and direct accusation: "You do not want this Branch (the Anglo-Indian) for work. . ----------------- end of part 1 of 2 ----------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:19:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <970615131924_1343578522@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-15 05:35:43 EDT, you write: >Still alive. > >Alan More than can be said about the people they have killed. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:20:21 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Pants on Fire? Message-ID: <19970615.101917.11199.0.trr@juno.com> On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:52:59 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >The message of this poem - in its ORIGINAL language - isn't to "fight" >but to "speak" out for those who are persecuted. >Maybe if that happened, there wouldn't be any need for guns. Maybe if, when Germany attacked Poland in 1939, all Poles had said "Adolf, we protest," World War 2 might have ended then and there. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:23:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Guns in Singapore Message-ID: <970615132333_-2098828769@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-15 08:26:31 EDT, you write: >Possession of firearms or ammunition is a life sentence. Hell, they hang people in Singapore for possessing chewing gum! Someday we are going to nuke that place! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:25:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <970615142554_-1697984037@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-11 23:52:21 EDT, Bart wrote: (quoting me here) > > solved. Drug laws are another example of this. By saying this, I'm trying > to > > tie this in more closely with theosophical issues, but haven't done a very > > good job of it. Anyone who's willing, though, please feel free to take > this > > nucleus of an idea and run with it. ;-D > (Then, accepting the baton, ran the good race!!! ;-D) > I COULD go all political, but I will try to do as you ask, instead :). You did, quite awesomely! Addressing the issue, as you did, from the point of view of thoughtforms was a stroke of genius, IMHO. > > It is difficult to speak Theosophically on what the duties of > government should or should not be. From a Theosophical point of view > government, for the most part, is irrelevent, as long as it permits > freedom of thought. > > When those who control communications create thought forms, however, it > is our duty as Theosophists to use proper discrimination to decide > whether or not that thought form is valid, and, if the thought form is > invalid, then to fight it as much as possible. I agree with all of this and, as a small "t" theosophist, feel the same duty. What is interesting is that a number of us, all sincerely trying to decide the validity of a thoughtform so as to know whether to fight or support it arrive at such diverse conclusions. :-) > > Government can take for itself much more power when it is defending the > people against an enemy. If such an enemy does not exist, then the > government will be forced to create it (note that a conspiracy is not > necessary; just a bunch of government employees individually trying to > ensure that their jobs will never disappear is sufficient). Such "enemies" also take the form of "crises", (the scare-of-the-week phenomenon or the childhood disease we Baby Boomers accepted as part of childhood as the latest "killer disease", etc.) all "requiring" bigger government as the only "solution". I agree that there is no requirement for a conspiracy in this. In addition to the job preservation scenario you presented, much of this IMHO is the result of extremely well-intentioned though terribly misguided crusaders who demand governmental "solutions", unaware of any others. It would be interesting to analyze the "utopia" thoughtform that is behind a lot of this, IMHO. (And we'll have utopia, by golly, whether you want it or not!! ;-D) >From the > point of view of someone in power who craves power, the ideal political > system is feudalism, as that stratifies the power position. Feudalism is > created when people, threatened by an outside menace, give up their > freedom (i.e. ability to make decisions about karma) in return for > personal security (i.e. temporary comfort of the lower self). Between > the drug laws (creating a barbarian outlaw class) and the gun control > laws (creating a body of "knights" to whom the people must swear fealty > in order to be protected from the barbarians), the government is, > however unintentionally, creating a feudal society. Now this is fascinating as I hadn't considered this as an evolution toward a feudal society. However, I can't help but be amused when I think about the fact the feudal lords extracted far less from their serfs than what various layers of government take from us in taxes these days. Had they dared, the cry would have gone out among the serfs to bring on the siege engines, catapults, etc. ;-D And weren't the knights at least honor-bound to protect those who had sworn fealty to them, unlike today's judges who rule that government's aren't required to protect citizens from crime? I'm absolutely thrilled to read your remark: "give up their freedom (i.e. ability to make decisions about karma) in return for personal security (i.e. temporary comfort of the lower self)." (Such folks karmically "deserve" neither. ;-D.)This is one of, if not the scariest, implications of the loss of personal freedom because it delays the evolution of much of humanity, IMHO. >Those who believe > that it IS intentional are the real force behind the militia movement (I > personally, using Occam's razor, believe that since intentionality is > not necessary, then I will not assume it to be there until proven > otherwise). Well at least it's the force behind the "black helicopter" crowd. I'm not sure if it extends to entire militia movement because it's difficult to come by information about anything more than its fringe elements if the news media is ones sole source of info. I agree that Occam's razor is indeed appropriate here. > > Those in charge of the communications, threatened by the militia > movement, are attempting to swing popular opinion against it by creating > thought forms dehumanizing the members; concentrating on the radical few > rather than the non-radical many (note that Timothy McVeigh was THROWN > OUT of the Michigan Militia, although he is portrayed as being > middle-of-the-road in the militia movement). A good example of this dehumanization was the shrill, blatently biased A&E "Investigative Reports" episode that was shown last week. Of course, despite many mentions of McVeigh in that show, it was never mentioned that he was THROWN OUT of the Michigan militia. While the show gave example after example of racism in the militia movement, they never breathed a whisper about the militias who are not at all racist--I know of several with minorities in their leadership. The militia in my county (I'm not a member) is headed by an Iranian Jew, but you'd never hear about that from most news outlets who portray all militias as anti-Semitic. > > The reason it concerns me is the parallels to the way that the Nazi's > portrayed Jews in their communications prior to WWII, creating thought > forms that dehumanized them so that the German people would quietly > accept the concentration camps. If one must make up lies to use against > a cause, then one has proven that one's own cause has already been lost. I've seen and have been concerned by the same chilling parallels. > > > When the World Trade Center was bombed, the first thing the politicians > did was go out and say that that this was a reason to have stronger gun > control laws. Even though we both agree that there isn't necessarily a "conspiracy" to increase the size and power of government, there is strong evidence that there is an "agenda" to get guns out of the hands of the American people. Being that explosives (used in the WTC bombing) are *not* guns, it's obvious to me that the politicians were using it only to further their agenda. >Yet, when gun control laws are passed, they are either > meaningless (like the so-called "assault weapons" law, which banned guns > based on the fact that they had plastic trim instead of wooden trim), or > making the posession of a gun a crime in and of itself, without > criminalizing further the use of a gun, so that someone using a gun to > commit a crime can use it as a chip in the plea bargain process, but > someone who is otherwise law-abiding ends up in an all-or-nothing > situation. I agree with this in its entirety. > > I am not saying that either guns or drugs are good things (although, > knowing this group, a bunch of people will automatically say I am). I am > saying that creating false thought forms to combat the abuse of guns and > drugs in our society only creates a worse problem. The reason, IMHO, for this reflexive reaction is that folks insist on confounding "things" again with the abuse of them. Even a nuclear weapon is not inherently evil in itself, IMHO. For example, if an asteroid were hurtling toward Earth and a nuke was the only explosive device with enough power to deflect it from its collision course, I think we'd find a lot of suddenly pro-nuke folks out there and Oppenheimer, Teller, Dyston, et al would again be heroes. (What would really be rich would be watching fringe-type environmentalists debating among themselves the rightness of launching an "evil" nuke into space or letting a large part of the environment be destroyed by an incoming asteroid.) ;-D In a nutshell, I think most of these invalid thoughtforms are problematic because they represent forms of attachment. Revulsion, repulsion, etc. are, IMHO, *still* forms of attachment. (This is also, IMHO, the root of the celibacy vs. non-celibacy debate we had earlier.) While those who inveigh (not to be confused with mcveigh) against guns and drugs may seem to be "on the side of the angels", they are still manifesting attraction (just a reversed polarity of it, so to speak) to the object they are trying to regulate, ban, or destroy. We won't get beyond the problems associated with the abuse of anything until we start transcending the attachments we have to them, regardless of polarity. Yet this cannot be karmically learned unless we have the freedom to make these karmic choices and experience the resulting lessons. Lynn Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:26:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Karma and regulation (was Regulation) Message-ID: <970615142602_-959734712@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-12 00:52:11 EDT, you write: > Dear Lynn, > > A further though following my other post. Regulating the availability > of "things" is undertaken in human society in many ways in human > societies. Large coporations regulate mass markets for their goods by > using their financial power to outprice and eliminate the 'little guy' > and his/her product. Hi Alan, I should warn you here that most of what underlies my approach to personal freedom, the role of government, etc. is based on my interpretation of the operation of Law of Karma in the evolution of humanity. So my response is heavily based on that and is full of personal opinion. ;-D (This is also taking Bart's wonderful concept when he equated freedom with the "ability to make decisions about karma" and running with it, though he may not necessarily agree with all the places I end up.) I totally agree with you that regulating the availability of things is undertaken in many ways. The difference with corporations regulating the availability of their product, for example, is that this is the action of a group of individuals that is *freely* taken. (That is, at least as far as the laws of economics will permit.) The group, and the individuals within it, will experience the karma attendant with that choice. I don't agree that large corporations are the sole regulators of mass markets nor that greed motivates all of their actions. But that's another potential thread in itself. ;-D When I use the term "karma" here, by the way, I'm not referring to it as "good" nor "bad" karma (a terminology that I have problems with anyway). The karma resulting from an action freely taken is, IMHO, more liberating (ultimately). The more that the mind and the emotional body are involved in the performance of any action, the greater the effect the action has on the development of the quality of the vehicles. I base this on the belief that karma, as an impersonal law, interacts with the matter/energy comprising the vehicles. The more subtle the energy (or vehicle) involved in motivating the action, the more potentially powerful the karmic reaction on the vehicles. (Please feel free to shoot holes in this as you wish. I know I'm wading into some pretty wild water with this. ;-D) When another entity, such as a government, makes the decisions for the individual, the resulting karma on the individual level is more limited in terms of the vehicle affected and the resulting evolutionary growth. The relationship is similar to that of a parent and a child. When a child does the right thing because of fear of punishment, not much is happening karmically on esoteric levels because higher levels of mental and emotional matter aren't involved in the act of obedience. (I think that fear is a rather primordial emotion.) When an adult obeys the law simply because of fear of repercussion, there is little change in the vibrational quality of the emotional and mental vehicles and there is little corresponding "motion" on a karmic level. Right action is performed out of fear and inertia rather than out of what is perceived from higher levels of the ego (not even bringing the Ego into this yet) and the evolution of humanity is, IMHO, slowed. The decision-making process is abstracted to government which is, in effect, lazily given the role of Ego. In fact, I believe that government, in itself, is an abstraction of much that we do not want to do as individuals rather than the more correct concept of it being an abstraction of the things that we cannot do as individuals (e.g., defend ourselves against another nation). The death penalty is another example of our abstraction to government something most of us wouldn't want to do ourselves--i.e., put another individual to death. However, that's a subject that I could go on and on about and no one has asked me to do that here. ;-D > Regulating availability of a "thing" may not solve a problem, but it can > certainly make the offence within the problem very much harder to > commit. For some while now, Canada has regulated the fishing of Cod in > order to prevent the destruction of fish stocks altogether. Human > greed, left to its own devices, will readily leave a swathe of > destruction in it wake which can never be restored. I agree that in some cases that it may make an offense harder to commit, though it usually has the effect of enabling some egos to develop skills as black market entrepeneurs, creating even worse problems. To use an example similar to the one you gave about the cod, similar efforts were taken to prevent the extermination of elephants for their ivory tusks. To protect them, African governments moved many of them to protected governmental preserves patrolled by game wardens. Well, poachers continued to sneak onto the preserves and slaughter elephants. However, at least one country found that elephants were far better protected on privately owned land where the owner had a "selfish" motivation to keep them alive. I truly wish I could cite chapter and verse, not remembering the details off the top of my head. However, if you really don't believe me, let me know and I'll try to find the information on the Web. Another example where enlightened self-interest seems to be working better than regulation is in the Philippines where biologists are working with island fishermen to conserve rather than totally deplete the sea horse population. > As a child in World War II Britain, I was regulated by the rationing of > food, and like everyone else, compelled to carry an identity card and a > gas mask when I was away from home. If we hadn't had these restraints, > survival would have been much more difficult. We didn't need the gas > masks in the end, but we weren't to know that in the beginning. This may be a small part of the reason for the difference in our point of view. While living in Europe working for NATO for three years, I was impressed by how the experience of WWII profoundly impacted the outlook of Europeans in many things. I was surprised by the number of conversations I took part in with Europeans where the European brought up the War--a fascinating topic, I admit. (This doesn't happen very often in the States.) And, believe me, I'm not saying this at all as a criticism, just as an observation. While we in the U.S. participated in WWII, it was not fought on our very soil with the bombing of Pearl Harbor being the closest thing to it. (And Hawaii wasn't yet a State.) And, I've suspected that, because we've never actually experienced a blitzkrieg, for example, on our own cities, we are more likely to participate in bombing "adventures" (e.g., VietNam, Libya, Panama, etc.) in waging "foreign policy" than the European countries. War in itself is tremendous national karma (to keep myself from digressing too far here ;-D). So please be assured that while the lines of opinion in this debate may tend to be following nationality somewhat, its not national chauvinism at play on either side but differences in national experience or karma, IMHO. > > The existence of weapons of violence leads inevitable to their use, and > the international trade in them is, IMO, an abomination. Huge numbers > of servicemen in the Gulf war were killed by ammunition supplied by > their own nations before the war began. Aside from the horrifying use of the A-bomb in WWII, I think humanity has shown admirable restraint in not having deployed them in the following half CENTURY. Of course much of this is due to mutual deterrence, but that doesn't at all undermine what some of us have been saying here as gun ownership as being a deterrent to crime. We have a saying here that "an armed society is a polite society" (considering crimes as the epitome of rudeness ;-D) and I think that there is a lot to be said for that. > > During WWII, my aunt came home from work in London one day to find not > only that her house and home had been destroyed by enemy bombs, but that > the whole *street* had vanished. That must have been an absolutely horrendous experience! Destruction on that scale is usually capable of being wrought only by governments, in this case the Nazi government. One of the early acts of the Nazi government was to disarm the German population. (This was also one of the things that King George tried to do to the American colonialists as soon as they became restless.) Had the German people not been disarmed the Nazis may not have been able to retain power long enough to unleash the horrors they did in Europe which included bombing your aunt's street. A disarmed citizenry is extremely vulnerable to tyranny and its horrors, I believe. > > I don't pretend to have total answers to the problems that these matters > present, but I can see clearly enough that the theosophical ideal > requires the promotion of the means of peaceful co-existence, and > opposition to the means of violence which work against that peace. I don't pretend to either, no matter how forceful I may sound in presenting my opinions. ;-D And, believe it or not, I agree that the theosophical ideal indeed requires the promotion of peaceful co-existence. Where we disagree is in the means to achieving that end, but that's OK. As long as we share that same ideal and have the freedom to continue working together on how to achieve it (which includes friendly debates like this), that's fine. Best regards, Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:46:10 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Karma and regulation (was Regulation) Message-ID: <33A41C38.7426@earthlink.net> Karmically balanced regulation occurs naturally in freedom..i.e., we (human beings) do not need to focus on regulating...indeed it is just such a focus (via gov't controls and taxation) that is the cause of the systemic problems we see today. For example, the idea that people are wise enough to manage the environment is nothing but a vanity...the environment will manage itself when people establish right relations (today this begins with economic freedom, i.e., no taxation and free trade) as this will alleviate the poverty issue. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:34:56 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: patrickstats Message-ID: <199706152153.RAA10767@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >The primary point is that removing inalienable rights does not make for >a better society and indeed all on-going significant social difficulties >can be traced to just such. (see >http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html And I suppose shooting other people is an inalienable right. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:09:05 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: patrickstats Message-ID: <33A44BDE.DA2@earthlink.net> > And I suppose shooting other people is an inalienable right. Funny...as long as you agree that others have the right to shoot you BEFORE you shoot them :) A "right" is a freedom that does not take away the same right from others...I know this can lead to an adventurous discussion.... so shooting someone is not a right as this would take away their freedom to shoot you...UNLESS you are shooting them to prevent them from shooting you...directly and individually... ...so health care is not a right (although it would be free for all if we had resource based economics) but camping on private property is a right...and so on Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:06:29 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: weaponry Message-ID: <199706152224.SAA01451@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >We have a book in our Seattle lodge, written by Alice Bailey during World >War 2, in which she strongly advocates using force to stop Germany. Patrick, I don't understand this quote. What are you trying to say? We fought a whole long war against Germany. What's so special about ABB saying we should use force against Germany? I thought so too, and sent my boy friends over there with guns. That was a life or death war. It's a little different, I think, from carrying a gun around the City because of the likelihood that someone might attack you. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:33:58 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <199706152233.QAA21709@mailmx.micron.net> Lynn gushed to Bart: >You did, quite awesomely! He did? >Addressing the issue, as you did, from the point of >view of thoughtforms was a stroke of genius, IMHO. It was? Ick. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:34:59 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: weaponry Message-ID: <33A451EC.3930@earthlink.net> > That was a life or death war. It's a little > different, I think, from carrying a gun around the City because of the > likelihood that someone might attack you. Ah...the idea is deterrence...if we had been properly prepared before WWII then the war could have been prevented....the prevention of war includes both right economics and weapons preparedness....the same applies to preventing crime...the economic solutions will lead to right education and resolve all of these issues. (see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html) (all of this is relative as to the world's current phase...) Peace, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:25:04 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: to Estrella, on past issues Message-ID: <199706152243.SAA13427@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Estrella, I want you to know that I personally knew 2 of Leadbeater's pupils, and have read a letter written by a third one. They all say that all these nasty accusations of CWL are completely false. He did no such thing. He wasn't even interested in sex anymore. There are others who say just the opposite, I know, but my 3 knew CWL very inimately from the time he was a young man until he died, and I believe them. So do most of the people who belong to the Adyar section. What is true is that these accusations were made when people were still very straight laced Victorian. CWL had some much more modern and healthier ideas about how young people should deal with their nascent sex drives, and I think that his ideas were just misconstrued. You must imagine that this was a time when women were so modest that their babies were born while the women were covered with a blanket, and the doctor delivered the babies by feel, because the women were ashamed of uncovering themselves. A doctor in Buffalo New York, allowed his students to watch him deliver a baby, always with the woman covered by a blanket. He was drummed out of the Medical Association. It was also a time when nocturnal emissions were considered an illness, for which the cure was castration. Think about the accusations against CWL against that background. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:56:19 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <199706152256.QAA22180@mailmx.micron.net> Lynn wrote: >Now this is fascinating as I hadn't considered this as an evolution toward a >feudal society. However, I can't help but be amused when I think about the >fact the feudal lords extracted far less from their serfs than what various >layers of government take from us in taxes these days. They did??? On what do you base this statement? >And weren't the knights at least honor-bound to protect >those who had sworn fealty to them, Well, as long as one would hand their wives, daughters, and granddaughters over upon demand. > While the show gave example after example >of racism in the militia movement, they never breathed a whisper about the >militias who are not at all racist--I know of several with minorities in >their leadership. The militia in my county (I'm not a member) is headed by an >Iranian Jew, but you'd never hear about that from most news outlets who >portray all militias as anti-Semitic. Most militias are racist - all one need do is read their literature. And just because someone is an "Iranian Jew" does not mean they are not racist. Having "minorities" or "Iranian Jews" as part of a militia's membership does not exonerate the advocation of violence. Militias tend to hold up their "non-white" members as trophies. . .however, most of us are not that stupid. >> (Bart said) The reason it concerns me is the parallels to the way that the Nazi's >> portrayed Jews in their communications prior to WWII, creating thought >> forms that dehumanized them so that the German people would quietly >> accept the concentration camps. If one must make up lies to use against >> a cause, then one has proven that one's own cause has already been lost. >I've seen and have been concerned by the same chilling parallels. There are NO, I repeat, NO parallels between what happened to the Jews and what is happening with the militias. This is AN INSULT to the Jewish people. My god. >In a nutshell, No comment. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:41:45 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: weapons Message-ID: <199706152259.SAA24138@ultra1.dreamscape.com> > This doesn't mean that the gun has to be used to kill someone. >All it takes is a little practice on aim, and you can shoot an aggressor >in the leg or arm and go hide until the police show up. The gun is a tool >which can be used for death, but if used properly, death can be avoided. > my problem is that if I had a gun, bits to buttons, the criminal would wrestle it away from me and proceed to shoot me with my own gun, in the foot or elsewhere. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:53:45 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: on past history Message-ID: <199706152311.TAA02142@ultra1.dreamscape.com> with his reliability as a source of teaching, as in the case of his claim to clairvoyance, wildly inaccurate in, for example, his description of life on Mars. To which I wish to remark that the inaccuracy of CWL's Mars description has been quoted a number of times. If, with all the clairvoyant descriptions CWL did, this is the only inaccurate one, which I don't know either way, but it's the one everyone harps on, then I'd say he was pretty accurate. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:24:16 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <33A45D7E.D9B@earthlink.net> > Most militias are racist - all one need do is read their literature. That statement is completely FALSE ...most militias have an oath the same as the U.S. president and military to protect and serve the U.S. Consittution and Declaration of Independence. The VAST majority of militia participants are there because they believe in freedom ans inalienable rights for all. > There are NO, I repeat, NO parallels between what happened to the Jews and > what is happening with the militias. This is AN INSULT to the Jewish > people. My god. Woa...the violation of basic rights is an exact parralell and the slaughter at Waco and murder at Montana is a prelude of what would be done if could be... P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:14:51 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: war & taxes Message-ID: <199706152333.TAA16390@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >The solution is to eliminate taxes and have the democratic based >nations always militarily stronger, fostering freedom and protection of >basic rights throughout the world. This should be the focus of the UN. > >P > I dont' know, Patrick. I was taught in school that when you accumulate arms you tend to use them to fight. How in your opinion do taxes fit into this? What would it do if we eliminated taxes? and how would we maintain our highways and run our schools? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:47:35 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: war & taxes Message-ID: <33A462F1.3867@earthlink.net> > I dont' know, Patrick. I was taught in school that when you accumulate arms > you tend to use them to fight. Your kidding :)...Only if you want to fight anyway...the demand characteristics (psych term) of arms can produce caution or aggression..depending on the values held by the arms owners...there is always something that can be used as a weapon (ref Hillary's use of a lamp...thrown at a man who, as the press reports, loves us all :-) > How in your opinion do taxes fit into this? What would it do if we > eliminated taxes? and how would we maintain our highways and run our schools? ...easily, simply and with better more beautiful technology... see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html Peace, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:56:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Patrick's stats Message-ID: <970615195636_-160627601@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-14 21:41:45 EDT, you write: > Er, we are born with the inalienable right to carry a Smith and Wessen? > What is your definition of "inalienable right? -JRC > I wasnt the one JRC addressed, but I can't resist putting in my $.02. I've always interpreted it as a right that was inherent in the condition of being--one that could not be taken away by anyone, including by any government. Being that the right to life is one of those inalienable rights, I must therefore have the right to defend it (including by carrying a Smith & Wesson). My rights end where another person's begin. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:56:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: "Spiritual evolution." Message-ID: <970615195642_1560211693@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-15 02:45:32 EDT, Alan wrote: > >"Spiritual evolution", (IMO) is a state in which a population has > >become so generally appalled at the thought of violence, weapons, and the > >glamour of the attacking/defending modality (generated by the brain stem, > >not higher thought) that no one is armed, and no one feels the need to be. > > Which, curiously enough, is the general opinion among UK citizens. I think I'll spend my next Devachanic break in the UK, then. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:02:12 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Militias 2 Message-ID: <33A4665C.3E70@earthlink.net> > Woa...the violation of basic rights is an exact parralell and the > slaughter at Waco and murder at Montana is a prelude of what would be > done if could be... To be clear I am not supportive of the reported values of the individuals involved in Waco & Montanna...but basic freedoms and due process of law are absolute (as described ref inalienable rights) and these are the focus in evaluating ways of handling these situations. P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:05:19 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: "Spiritual evolution." Message-ID: <33A46716.7F38@earthlink.net> > >"Spiritual evolution", (IMO) is a state in which a population has > >become so generally appalled at the thought of violence, weapons, and the > >glamour of the attacking/defending modality (generated by the brain stem, > >not higher thought) that no one is armed, and no one feels the need to be. > > Which, curiously enough, is the general opinion among UK citizens. ...and economic freedom (i.e., no taxes & free trade) will extend the same to the world :-) P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:02:08 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: The Ideal of Peace Message-ID: <19970615.180115.11135.0.trr@juno.com> >>the theosophical ideal requires the promotion of the means of peaceful >>co-existence, and opposition to the means of violence which work >>against that peace. Ronald Reagan might have been the most Theosophical person in quite some time, then. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:53:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: "Spiritual evolution." Message-ID: In message <970615195642_1560211693@emout11.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-06-15 02:45:32 EDT, Alan wrote: > >> >"Spiritual evolution", (IMO) is a state in which a population has >> >become so generally appalled at the thought of violence, weapons, and the >> >glamour of the attacking/defending modality (generated by the brain stem, >> >not higher thought) that no one is armed, and no one feels the need to >be. >> >> Which, curiously enough, is the general opinion among UK citizens. > >I think I'll spend my next Devachanic break in the UK, then. ;-D > >Lynn I suggest you wait a while. General opinion has yet to reach out to issues such as beating people up. Anyhow, as I understand it, there is no UK (or any other "country") in Devachan. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:31:10 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: The Ideal of Peace Message-ID: <199706160131.TAA28403@mailmx.micron.net> Tom spewed: >Ronald Reagan might have been the most Theosophical person in quite some >time, then. Oh, yeah - when that "Bedtime for Bonzo" person kept calling the Soviet Union the "evil empire," I just knew he was working for "peaceful co-existence." In reality, he just yearned for a penis contest. The "Gipper" would be really insulted if he knew you had called him a Theosophist. That Pres only respected those who feared God - again, possibly the penis thing. Uh, huh - God Bless America. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:39:00 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Pants on Fire? Message-ID: In message <199706150512.XAA20988@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >The message of this poem - in its ORIGINAL language - isn't to "fight" but >to "speak" out for those who are persecuted. > > >Maybe if that happened, there wouldn't be any need for guns. > APPLAUSE! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:41:27 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: The Ideal of Peace Message-ID: <19970615.184023.11135.4.trr@juno.com> On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:31:27 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >Oh, yeah - when that "Bedtime for Bonzo" person kept calling the >Soviet Union the "evil empire," I just knew he was working for "peaceful >co-existence." I agree. Carter would have made much more peace than Reagan did. We would have laid down all our weapons, and said "let us have peace," and the Soviet Union would have responded: "yes, let's all be one big, happy family," just as they told Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc. And even if they were aggressive towards us, we still could have protested. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:46:48 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: In message <970615131924_1343578522@emout06.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-06-15 05:35:43 EDT, you write: > >>Still alive. >> >>Alan > >More than can be said about the people they have killed. > >Chuck the Heretic U.S. Marines ---> Vietnam This kind of back and forth doesn't lead anywhere except to show that the human race is, by and large, as spiritual as a stinking turd. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:42:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom? Message-ID: In message <199706150424.WAA18750@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >I'd think >Theosophists were a bunch of bedlamites. (!) And dangerous. Some probably are. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:04:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: on past history Message-ID: <7sJoAaA4EJpzEwp2@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199706152311.TAA02142@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >with his reliability as a source of >teaching, as in the case of his claim to clairvoyance, wildly inaccurate >in, for example, his description of life on Mars. > >To which I wish to remark that the inaccuracy of CWL's Mars description has >been quoted a number of times. If, with all the clairvoyant descriptions CWL >did, this is the only inaccurate one, which I don't know either way, but >it's the one everyone harps on, then I'd say he was pretty accurate. > >Liesel > With all respect (which is a lot, Liesel) the Mars account is used as being the most obvious. Other dubious instances are CWL's alleged manipulation of the "Lives" as reported by his own secretary, Ernest Wood. I have been told by an E.S. member that much of his work is today considered to be "unreliable" - which is why many of his publications have been seriously abridged, some never reissued, and others of his "school" quietly shelved, such as Jinarajadasa's ~First Principles of Theosophy~. The only way to check on CWL's or anyone else's clairvoyance is to develop one's own abilities as fully as possible. Anything else is only ever a working hypothesis - which remains true even if we *do* develop our own "third principle" siddhis etc., etc. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:35:44 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: TPH Adyar Message-ID: <33A4A680.E71@sprynet.com> m.k. ramadoss wrote: > > I don't know if some of the books of TPH fall apart, may be it is > a batch with bad production. I have books published by TPH ranging from > 10-80 years that have not yet fallen apart. I think the fact that some of > the books are falling apart should be brought to the attention of TPH so > that they can look into the matter and find out what went wrong with the > production. I am talking specifically about TPH >ADYAR<. TPH America books are well made. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:46:18 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: On past issues (some questioning) Message-ID: <33A4A8FA.13BE@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > > On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 15:50:49 -0400 (EDT) "Romero Cortez D.Ma" > writes: > > >On C.W.Leadbeater, the case (accused as a child molester) > > I believe that CWL was teaching his young male pupils about masturbation, > rather than seeking his own pleasure. Annie Besant certainly supported > him. It was standard operating procedure in British public schools, among other things. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:36:42 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: USA Message-ID: In message <970615000904_-628516801@emout08.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-06-14 21:23:19 EDT, you write: > >>Those with membership cards (obtainable from Chuck for a reasonable fee, >>I have heard). >> >>Alan :-) > >NO! NO! NO! We're the Seventh Root Race. The Sixth Root Race is a bunch of >potatoes and carrots running around a track. > >Chuck the Heretic Along with the purple hairy bunnies? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:27:09 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <33A4B28D.34A8@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <33A214DC.2F4A@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >> Waco. > > > > What about it? > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Not an example of the most spiritually developed nation. Ah. End of this thread of conversation (from my point of view). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:31:03 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Weapons Europe's problems! Message-ID: <33A4B377.71AF@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > No one invaded Switzerland because it was a valuable asset as a spy and > communications center, a kind of useful Oasis in the middle of the war. > No one in their right mind would have suposed that the amount of > weaponry possessed by the Swiss would have bothered the Nazi war machine > much! According to documents discovered after the war, Germany considered attacks directly against the U.S., but decided against them specifically because the populace was almost universally armed. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:39:54 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: to Estrella, on past issues Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970616033954.00dd56f4@mail.eden.com> At 06:42 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Dear Estrella, > >I want you to know that I personally knew 2 of Leadbeater's pupils, and have >read a letter written by a third one. They all say that all these nasty >accusations of CWL are completely false. He did no such thing. He wasn't >even interested in sex anymore. There are others who say just the opposite, >I know, but my 3 knew CWL very inimately from the time he was a young man >until he died, and I believe them. So do most of the people who belong to >the Adyar section. What is true is that these accusations were made when >people were still very straight laced Victorian. CWL had some much more >modern and healthier ideas about how young people should deal with their >nascent sex drives, and I think that his ideas were just misconstrued. You >must imagine that this was a time when women were so modest that their >babies were born while the women were covered with a blanket, and the doctor >delivered the babies by feel, because the women were ashamed of uncovering >themselves. A doctor in Buffalo New York, allowed his students to watch him >deliver a baby, always with the woman covered by a blanket. He was drummed >out of the Medical Association. It was also a time when nocturnal emissions >were considered an illness, for which the cure was castration. Think about >the accusations against CWL against that background. > >Liesel > > Let me add that in Ernest Wood's book "Is This Theosophy?" he mentions that during his close association with CWL as his private secretary, he never saw any of the allegations that were made later on. I just wanted to put on record what he had put in writing. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:39:57 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TPH Adyar Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970616033957.00dff1e4@mail.eden.com> At 10:36 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >m.k. ramadoss wrote: >> >> I don't know if some of the books of TPH fall apart, may be it is >> a batch with bad production. I have books published by TPH ranging from >> 10-80 years that have not yet fallen apart. I think the fact that some of >> the books are falling apart should be brought to the attention of TPH so >> that they can look into the matter and find out what went wrong with the >> production. > > I am talking specifically about TPH >ADYAR<. TPH America books are well >made. > > Bart Lidofsky > I should have made it clear when I said TPH, I was referring to TPH, ADYAR. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:39:56 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: on past history Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970616033956.00dde7cc@mail.eden.com> At 07:11 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >with his reliability as a source of >teaching, as in the case of his claim to clairvoyance, wildly inaccurate >in, for example, his description of life on Mars. > >To which I wish to remark that the inaccuracy of CWL's Mars description has >been quoted a number of times. If, with all the clairvoyant descriptions CWL >did, this is the only inaccurate one, which I don't know either way, but >it's the one everyone harps on, then I'd say he was pretty accurate. > >Liesel > On one thing CWL was right. His picking identifying Krishnaji and Krishnaji blossoming as a well regarded person in spiritual matters. Many may not agree whether he was the World Teacher or not nor his with his views. But the fact of the matter is that he is one of the much read by audience interested in spiritual matters. As a matter of fact there is a sizeable following within TS (Adyar) whether the elected leaders recognize it or not. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:48:28 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Guns in Singapore Message-ID: In message <970615132333_-2098828769@emout01.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Someday we are going to nuke that place! Very brotherly. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:05:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: U.S.A. Re: Weapons Message-ID: <970616000129_614978065@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-15 22:33:48 EDT, you write: >This kind of back and forth doesn't lead anywhere except to show that >the human race is, by and large, as spiritual as a stinking turd. > > On that I will agree. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:19:42 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: patrickstats Message-ID: <33A4BEDE.32BF@sprynet.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > >The primary point is that removing inalienable rights does not make for > >a better society and indeed all on-going significant social difficulties > >can be traced to just such. (see > >http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html > > And I suppose shooting other people is an inalienable right. No. However, making sure that someone who tries to kill you is going to risk their own life in the process, IS. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:47:21 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: patrickstats Message-ID: <19970615.224633.12279.1.trr@juno.com> On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Bart Lidofsky writes: >liesel f. deutsch wrote: >>Patrick wrote: >> >The primary point is that removing inalienable rights does not make >> >for a better society and indeed all on-going significant social >> >difficulties can be traced to just such. (see >> >http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html >> And I suppose shooting other people is an inalienable right. > No. However, making sure that someone who tries to kill you is >going to risk their own life in the process, IS. Self-defense is not just a question of individual rights, since it benefits everyone. Those who would initiate violence for selfish purposes benefit from their potential victims defending themselves, since a necessary step in their evolution is to be taught not to do that, force being the only effective way. And the human race as a whole benefits from the fittest surviving. If the fittest, on the other hand, out of pacifism, allow the weaker to overcome them, the race as a whole suffers. Competition is necessary for evolution. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 6:16:53 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Misstatements Message-ID: <199706161016.GAA04718@leo.vsla.edu> I have let the past five or so digests go by unread; knowing just by the headers that the posts would be by and large not worth reading (IMO) and containing silly arguments. I read today's and confirmed that judgment, with such howlers as: Tom saying Jimmy Carter would have "laid down our weapons" in the struggle with the Soviet Union. Tom, are you under 25? Anyone who is older than that should know that the military buildup of the 1980s, and the increase of tension with the Soviets, *began* under Carter after several years of detente under the Republiicans. The Olympic boycott was symbolic of this. Or the statement that "Besant supported CWL" in the case of the boys' claims of sexual abuse. She was deeply involved in the proceedings that led to his resignation from the society in 1906 and publicly condemned him. Two years later she let him back in, but never endorsed what he had been doing. Or the statement that all he was doing was advising masturbation. He *admitted* doing more than this, and it's all there in the record. Finally, "standard practice" in British public schools for boys to be instructed in masturbation by their schoolmasters? What is your source for this assertion, Bart? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:18:33 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Misstatements Message-ID: <33A52F19.4DCE@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > schoolmasters? What is your source for this assertion, Bart? I have read it from so many sources that I pretty much thought it was common knowledge among historians. I suggest that you study the etymology of the word "faggot", as a slang term for a homosexual. That should lead you to all the proper sources (at least that's what happened when I researched the term about 20 years ago). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:15:35 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: On Atlantis & Our times Message-ID: <33A52E44.1368@earthlink.net> Hello, I found a www page full of info about Atlantis most of which seems accurate to me ref the SD and Cayce's work...it's http://www.maui.net/~daryl/golden_ages_1.html fascinating info... P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:05:05 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Atlantis question :) Message-ID: <33A539D6.CF4@earthlink.net> >From the URL ... "According to Plato and many other ancient historians, Atlantis had the most advanced and peaceful government in the world during its height, and for thousands of years planet Earth was at peace with a form of political system we have not seen the equal of since! " Hmmm...any references in the SD or Cayce as to this? P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:07:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Guns in Singapore Message-ID: <970616120545_254875279@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-16 04:28:07 EDT, you write: >Very brotherly. > >Alan Freedom transcends brotherhood. Singapore is the world's weirdest police state. Chuck From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:35:26 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1080 Message-ID: <33A5795E.1442@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Patrick Alessandra Jr. Wrote: > In fact the USA is the most spiritually evolved nation today...more > mature an nentity than any other nation in the world....in freedom comes > the greatest opportunity. > That's a joke, no? Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:20:14 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Year 2000 [Fwd: Newsweek Article, for those who missed it] Message-ID: <33A567BC.5EFE@earthlink.net> Remove all stock investments :) see > From: "ET" > Newsgroups: comp.software.year-2000 > Subject: Newsweek Article, for those who missed it > Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:05:06 -0700 > Message-ID: <5o3vdg$ol2@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Drink deep from your champagne glasses as the ball drops in times square to usher in the year 2000. Whether you imbibe or not, the hangover may begin immediately. The power may go out. Or the credit card you pull out to pay for dinner may no longer be valid. If you try an ATM to get cash, that may not work, either. Or the elevator that took you up to the party ballroom may be stuck on the ground floor. Or the parking garage you drove into earlier in the evening may charge you more than your yearly salary. Or your car might not start. Or the traffic lights might be on the blink. Or, when you get home, the phones may not work. The mail may show up, but your magazine subscriptions will have stopped, your government check may not arrive, your insurance policies may have expired. Or you may be out of a job. When you show up for work after the holiday, the factory or office building might be locked up, with a handwritten sign taped to the wall: out of business due to computer error. Could it really happen? Could the most anticipated New Year's Eve party in our lifetimes really usher in a digital nightmare when our wired-up-the-wazo o civilization grinds to a halt? Incredibly, according to computer experts, corporate information officers, congressional leaders and basically anyone who's given the matter a fair hearing, the answer is yes, yes, 2,000 times yes! Yes--unless we successfully complete the most ambitious and costly technology project in history, one where the payoff comes not in amassing riches or extending Web access, but securing raw survival. What's the problem? It's called, variously, the Year 2000 Problem, Y2K or the Millennium Bug. It represents the ultimate indignity: the world laid low by two lousy digits. The trouble is rooted in a seemingly trivial space-saving programming trick--dropping the first two numbers of the date, abbreviating, say, the year 1951 to "51." This digital relic from the days when every byte of computer storage was precious was supposed to have been long gone by now, but the practice became standard. While any idiot familiar with the situation could figure out that the world's computers were on a collision course with the millennium, no one wanted to be the one to bring it up to management. And, really, which executive would welcome a message from nerddom that a few million bucks would be required to fix some obscure problem that wouldn't show up for several years? So only now, as the centurial countdown begins, are we learning that the digit-dropping trick has changed from clever to catastrophic. Because virtually all the mainframe computers that keep the world humming are riddled with software that refuses to recognize that when 1999 runs out, the year 2000 follows. When that date arrives, the computers are going to get very confused. (PCs aren't as affected; sidebar.) So that seemingly innocuous trick now affects everything from ATMs to weapons systems. Virtually every government, state and municipality, as well as every large, midsize and small business in the world, is going to have to deal with this--in fact, if they haven't started already it's just about too late. Fixing the problem requires painstaking work. The bill for all this? Gartner Group estimates it could go as high as $600 billion. That amount could easily fund a year's worth of all U.S. educational costs, preschool through grad school. It's Bill Gates times 30! That tab doesn't include the litigation that will inevitably follow the system failures. "You can make some very reasonable extrapolations about litigation that take you over $1 trillion, and those are very conservative estimates," says Dean Morehous, a San Francisco lawyer. (Conservative or not, this is more than three times the yearly cost of all civil litigation in the United States.) Come on, you say. Two measly digits? Can't we just unleash some sort of roboprogram on all that computer code and clean it up? Well, no. Forget about a silver bullet. It seems that in most mainframe programs, the date appears more often than "M*A*S*H" reruns on television--about once every 50 lines of code. Typically, it's hard to find those particular lines, because the original programs, often written in the ancient COBOL computer language, are quirky and undocumented. After all that analysis, you have to figure out how to rewrite the lines to correctly process the date. Only then comes the most time-consuming step: testing the rewritten program. It's a torturous process, but an absolutely necessary one. Because if we don't swat the millennium Bug, we'll have troubles everywhere. Electricity. When the Hawaiian Electric utility in Honolulu ran tests on its system to see if it would be affected by the Y2K Bug, "basically, it just stopped working," says systems analyst Wendell Ito. If the problem had gone unaddressed, not only would some customers have potentially lost power, but others could have got their juice at a higher frequency, in which case, "the clocks would go faster, and some things could blow up," explains Ito. (Hawaiian Electric revamped the software and now claims to be ready for the year 2000.) Another concern is nuclear power; the Nuclear Regulatory Commission says that the Bug might affect "security control, radiation monitoring... and accumulated burn-up programs [which involve calculations to estimate the hazard posed by radioactive fuel]." Communications. "If no one dealt with the year 2000 Bug, the [phone] network would not operate properly," says Eric Sumner Jr., a Lucent chief technology officer. He's not talking about dial tones, but things like billing (watch out for 100-year charges). Certain commercial operations that run phone systems by computer could also go silent if the software isn't fixed. Medicine. Besides the expected mess in billing systems, insurance claims and patient records, hospitals and doctors have to worry about embedded chips--microprocessors inside all sorts of devices that sometimes have date-sensitive controls. The year 2000 won't make pacemakers stop dead, but it could affect the data readouts it reports to physicians. Weapons. NEWSWEEK has obtained an internal Pentagon study listing the Y2K impact on weapons and battlefield technologies. In their current state, "a year 2000 problem exists" in several key military technologies and they will require upgrading or adjustments. One intelligence system reverts to the year 1900, another reboots to 1969. The report confidently states that as far as nuclear devices like Trident missiles are concerned, "there are no major obstacles which will prevent them from being totally Year 2000 compliant by Jan. 1999." Money. Banks and other financial institutions generally will go bonkers if they don't fix the year 2000 problem. The Senate Banking Committee is even worried that vertiginous computers might automatically erase the last 99 years' worth of bank records. Some Y2K consultants are advising consumers to make sure they don't enter the 1999 holiday without obtaining hard-copy evidence of their assets. According to Jack Webb of HONOR Technologies, Inc., ATMs won't work without fixes. Food. In Britain computers at the Marks & Spencer company have already mistakenly ordered the destruction of tons of corned beef, believing they were more than 100 years old. Air-Traffic Control. "We're still in the assessment stage, determining how big the problem is," says Dennis DeGaetano of the Federal Aviation Administration. One possible danger is computer lockup: while planes will keep moving at 12:01 a.m. on Jan. 1, 2000, the screens monitoring them, if not upgraded, might lock. Or the computers might know where the planes were, but mix them up with flights recorded at the same time on a previous day. ("You can bet we're going to fix it," says DeGaetano.) Factories. Ford Motor Co. reports that if the Bug isn't fixed, its buildings could literally shut down--the factories have security systems linked to the year. "Obviously, if you don't fix it, your business will stop in the year 2000," says Ford's David Principato. Even if a manufacturing company aggressively solves its own problem, though, it might be flummoxed by a supplier who delivers widgets in the wrong century. Just About Everything Else. Larry Martin, CEO of Data Dimensions, warns that if not adjusted, "on Jan. 1, 2000, a lot of elevators could be dropping to the bottom of buildings," heading to the basement for inspections they believe are overdue. Similarly, automobiles have as many as 100 chips; if they are calendar-challenged, experts say, forget about driving. Computerized sprinkler systems could initiate icy midwinter drenchings. Like leaves rustling before a tornado, there have already been harbingers of a bureaucratic meltdown. At a state prison, a computer glitch misread the release date of prisoners and freed them prematurely. In Kansas, a 104-year-old woman was given a notice to enter kindergarten. Visa has had to recall some credit cards with expiration dates three years hence--the machines reading them thought they had expired in the McKinley administration. The $600 billion question is whether we'll fix the Bug in time. The good news is that the computer industry is finally responding to the challenge. For months now, squadrons of digital Jeremiahs have been addressing tech conferences with tales of impending apocalypse. The most sought-after is Peter de Jager, a bearded Canadian who scares the pants off audiences on a near-daily basis. "If we shout from the rooftops, they accuse us of hype," he complains. "But if we whisper in an alley, no one will listen." Last week in Boston de Jager demonstrated the rooftop approach: "If you're not changing code by November of this year," he warned, "you will not get this thing done on time--it's that simple. We still don't get it." But we're starting to. Most major corporations now have year 2000 task forces, with full-time workers funded by multimillion-dollar budgets, to fix a problem that their bosses finally understand. They're aided by an army of consultants and specialized companies. Some, like Data Dimensions, offer full Y2K service, providing tools, programmers and guidance. Others, like Peritus, sell special software to help find offending code and, sometimes, even convert it. (The final, most arduous stage, testing, still defies automation.) These firms are the new darlings of Wall Street. But buyer beware--consultants are coming out of the woodwork to exploit the desperation of late-coming companies. Someone might promise a phalanx of brilliant programmers to fix the Bug, but "for all you know, it could be 10 people in a garage doing it by hand," says Ted Swoyer, a Peritus exec. Still, the creation of a Y2K-fixing infrastructure is encouraging. It's not uncommon to find gung-ho efforts like the one at Merrill Lynch: an 80-person Y2K division working in shifts, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It'll cost the company $200 million, a sum that could hire Michael Eisner and fire Mike Ovitz. "Our return on investment is zero," says senior VP Howard Sorgen. "This will just enable us to stay in business." So maybe we're not in for a full-scale disaster. Let us assume--oh God let it be true--that those in charge of life-sustaining applications and services will keep their promises to fix what needs fixing. The costs and liabilities of not doing so are too huge not to. (On the other hand, when did you last see a huge software project that met its deadline and worked perfectly? Just asking.) Still, there will almost certainly be severe dislocations because of the mind-boggling enormity of the problem. Even the most diligent companies don't have total confidence they can fix everything. Consider BankBoston, the 15th largest commercial bank in the United States. Early in 1995, the company realized that "it was a problem that could bring an institution to its knees," says David Iacino, who heads the bank's Team 2000. To stop a meltdown, BankBoston has to probe 60 million lines of code. The harder BankBoston works at solving the problem--it now has 40 people working full time on it--the more complicated it seems. "Every day, when we see something new we haven't thought about, we get additional angst," says Iacino. Of the 200 BankBoston applications that need revamping, only a handful have been completed so far. BankBoston is now separating the essential work from the noncritical, and if the Bug causes less dire problems, like the heavy vault doors swinging open on New Year's Eve, it'll just cope: "Vaults are physical things," says Iacino. "If push comes to shove, we can put a guard in front." Now, if BankBoston, which started early and has been driving hard, is already thinking triage, what is going to happen to institutions that are still negotiating in the face of a nonnegotiable deadline? The Gartner Group is estimating that half of all businesses are going to fall short. "There's still a large number of folks out there who haven't started," says Matt Hotle, Gartner's research director. As businesses finally come to terms with the inevitable, it's going to be panic time. In about a year, expect most of the commercial world to be totally obsessed with the Bug. "Pretty soon we have to just flat stop doing other work," says Leo Verheul of California's Department of Motor Vehicles. But no amount of money or resources will postpone the year 2000. It will arrive on time, even if all too many computers fail to recognize its presence. "It's staggering to start doing mind games on what percentage of companies will go out of business," says Gartner's Hotle. "What is the impact to the economy of 1 percent going out of business?" Or maybe more: Y2K expert Capers Jones predicts that more than 5 percent of all businesses will go bust. This would throw hundreds of thousands of people into the unemployment lines--applying for checks that may or may not come, depending on whether the government has successfully solved its Y2K problem. What is the U.S. government doing? Not enough."It's ironic that this administration that prides itself on being so high tech is not really facing up to the potential disaster that is down the road a little bit," says Sen. Fred Thompson. If Y2K indeed becomes a calamity, it may well be the vice president who suffers--imagine Al Gore's spending the entire election campaign explaining why he didn't foresee the crisis. (Gore declined to speak to NEWSWEEK on the Y2K problem.) Here's the recipe for a federal breakdown: not enough time and not enough money. While the Office of Management and Budget claims the problem can be fixed for $2.3 billion, most experts think it will take $30 billion. Rep. Stephen Horn held hearings last year to see if the federal agencies were taking steps "to prevent a possible computer disaster," and was flabbergasted at the lack of preparedness. His committee assigned each department a letter grade. A few, notably Social Security, were given A's. (The SSA has been working on the problem for eight years and now has it 65 percent licked; at that rate it will almost make the deadline.) Those with no plan in place--NASA, the Veterans Administration--got D's. Special dishonor was given to places where inaction could be critical, yet complacency still ruled, like the departments of Labor, Energy and Transportation. State governments are also up against the 2000 wall. California, for instance, finished its inventory last December and found that more than half of its 2,600 computer systems required fixes. Of those, 450 systems are considered "mission critical," says the state's chief information officer John Thomas Flynn. These include computers that control toll bridges, traffic lights, lottery payments, prisoner releases, welfare checks, tax collection and the handling of toxic chemicals. As bad as it seems in the United States, the rest of the world is lagging far behind in fixing the problem. Britain has recently awakened to the crisis--a survey late last year showed that 90 percent of board directors knew of it--but the head of Britain's Taskforce 2000, Robin Guenier, worries that only a fraction really understand what's required. "I'm not saying we're doomed, but if we are not doing better in six months, I really will be worried," he says. He expects the cost to top $50 billion. On the Continent, things are much worse; most of the information-processing energy is devoted to the Euro-currency, and observers fear that when countries like Germany and France finally tackle 2000, it might be too late. Russia seems complacent. Recently Mikhail Gorbachev met with Representative Horn in Washington, expressing concern about how far behind Russia is in dealing with the Bug; Gorbachev raised its possible impact on the country's nuclear safeguards. The list can go on, and on and on. "It's like an iceberg," says Leon Kappelman, an academic and Y2K consultant. "I would certainly be uncomfortable if Wall Street were to close for a few days, but I can live with that. But what if the water system starts sending water out before it's safe? Or a chemical plant goes nuts? Anybody who tells you 'Oh, it's OK' without knowing that it's been tested is in denial." It's tough out there on the front lines of Y2K. And in less than a thousand days, it might be tough everywhere. "There are two kinds of people," says Nigel Martin-Jones of Data Dimensions. "Those who aren't working on it and aren't worried, and those who are working on it and are terrified." Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:13:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <970616151120_519896221@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-15 20:14:59 EDT, Kym wrote: > > Lynn wrote: > > > While the show gave example after example > >of racism in the militia movement, they never breathed a whisper about the > >militias who are not at all racist--I know of several with minorities in > >their leadership. The militia in my county (I'm not a member) is headed by > an > >Iranian Jew, but you'd never hear about that from most news outlets who > >portray all militias as anti-Semitic. > > > Most militias are racist - all one need do is read their literature. And > just because someone is an "Iranian Jew" does not mean they are not racist. > Having "minorities" or "Iranian Jews" as part of a militia's membership does > not exonerate the advocation of violence. Militias tend to hold up their > "non-white" members as trophies. . .however, most of us are not that stupid. First of all, have you read the literature of "most" militias or are you basing your remark on what you've heard in the traditional news media? I've never claimed to have read the literature of "most" militias, but have read enough to know that you can't make broad generalizations about a very diverse movement. As an African-American, I think I know what is or is not racist, thank you. Claiming that most militias use their nonwhite members as trophies is stating that the nonwhite members of militias are incapable of making these judgements for themselves, therefore your opinion of their intelligence must be quite low. Surely you don't want to go there, now do you? I know that this kind of thinking is common among some liberals, especially in how they patronize us by believing that they know what is best for us. Your final phrase (about stupidity) is born of the same reckless arrogance that led you to make your trophy statement. This arrogance, IMHO, is derived from the belief held by some liberals that they have an exclusive lock on compassion and other spiritual virtues and that the moral "high road" they thus think they travel entitles them to be as arrogant and condescending as they please toward those of differing viewpoints. > >> (Bart said) The reason it concerns me is the parallels to the way that > the Nazi's > >> portrayed Jews in their communications prior to WWII, creating thought > >> forms that dehumanized them so that the German people would quietly > >> accept the concentration camps. If one must make up lies to use against > >> a cause, then one has proven that one's own cause has already been lost. > > >I've seen and have been concerned by the same chilling parallels. > > There are NO, I repeat, NO parallels between what happened to the Jews and > what is happening with the militias. This is AN INSULT to the Jewish > people. My god. Excuse me? You have the nerve to claim that I've insulted a certain group of people after the degrading trophy remarks *you* made about minorities in militias? Reread what Bart said, if you can stop your knee from jerking long enough. He was describing how the Nazis demonized the Jews prior to WWII so that the Germans would accept what the Nazis would eventually do to them. No way does this trivialize the monstrous horror of the atrocities committed upon the Jews, so where is the insult? I was agreeing with the basic premise that prior to moving to destroy a group a people, history has shown that a government will dehumanize/demonize them so that the population will accept whatever steps, no matter how monstrous, that the government then takes against them. The parallel that Bart mentioned and that I agreed with had to do with the demonization as "justification" process. Had he instead said "dehumanization of Africans in order to justify enslaving them", I would have agreed just as heartily, not screamed about insults to Africans or African-Americans. And, just to make sure that you are totally clear about where I stand on this entire issue. None of this is said to justify the actions of that fascist group that has been terrorizing Jacqi's neighbors or friends. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:18:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <970616151109_-294702070@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-15 18:35:53 EDT, Kym wrote: > Lynn gushed to Bart: Well, if you disagree, how about saying *why* you disagree rather than hurling meaningless characterizations of my statements? > > >You did, quite awesomely! > > He did? Meaningless question. It would be far more useful to explain why *you* don't feel that he did. > > >Addressing the issue, as you did, from the point of > >view of thoughtforms was a stroke of genius, IMHO. > > It was? See above. > > Ick. That's a truly articulate, enlightening remark. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:53:20 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Militias - to Lynn Message-ID: <199706162353.RAA28085@mailmx.micron.net> Lynn wrote: >First of all, have you read the literature of "most" militias or are you >basing your remark on what you've heard in the traditional news media? Yes, I have read the writings of most militia groups. I was employed by a particular organization in Idaho, where I live, as an assistant to the Housing Director about two years ago. There was a landlord, a member of the militia, who was evicting a Jewish family. The Jewish family claimed it was due to anti-Semitism. After an investigation it concluded that it was, indeed, a case of racism. In order for us to help this family, we needed to compile an enormous amount of information on militias. I was unlucky enough to have ended up being assigned as the one to read the "literature" of most militias. Not all militias are racist, but I stand by my statement that most are - and I have based it on the information provided by the militias themselves. >As an African-American, I think I know what is or is not racist, thank you. Lynn? How do you know what race I am? Or anybody else on this list? Why are you "thanking" me for you knowing about racism? And is is not possible for someone other than an African-American to know about racism? >Claiming that most militias use their nonwhite members as trophies is stating >that the nonwhite members of militias are incapable of making these >judgements for themselves, therefore your opinion of their intelligence must >be quite low. It is?! Firstly, how do you know they're not choosing to be used as "trophies?" Secondly, one doesn't have to be white to be racist. For example, in one interview I read, an Indian gentleman and an African-American gentlemen claimed they belonged to a militia because that militia "recognized the Jewish threat." They openly admitted that the members of the group, racially mixed as they were, didn't particularly like each other, but their common and strong hatred for the Jews served a powerful bond. Do I doubt their intelligence? HELL NO! It's their very high intelligence that is so dangerous - if militia members were stupid we'd have nothing to fear. Again, I stand by my statement. >Surely you don't want to go there, now do you? Go where? >I know that this >kind of thinking is common among some liberals, What kind of thinking are you talking about here? >especially in how they >patronize us by believing that they know what is best for us. Again, who are "us" and who are "they?" >Your final >phrase (about stupidity) is born of the same reckless arrogance that led you >to make your trophy statement. In what way? If it wasn't true - militias would be running the country. >Excuse me? You have the nerve to claim that I've insulted a certain group of >people after the degrading trophy remarks *you* made about minorities in >militias? Yes, I do. . .and you are excused. >He was describing how the Nazis demonized the Jews prior to WWII so >that the Germans would accept what the Nazis would eventually do to them. No >way does this trivialize the monstrous horror of the atrocities committed >upon the Jews, so where is the insult? The militia is being required to FOLLOW THE LAW. They decide to take up arms when things don't go their way. This is NOT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE JEWS. The Jews did not stockpile arms or threaten to overthrow the government or refuse to pay taxes, etc. . . I still maintain that you and Bart comparing the plight of the Jews with the "plight" of the militia is an INSULT to the Jewish people and a minimizing of the Holocaust. >And, just to make sure that you are totally clear about where I stand on this >entire issue. None of this is said to justify the actions of that fascist >group that has been terrorizing Jacqi's neighbors or friends. That's wonderful. And I believe she/he spells her/his name Jaqi. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:59:43 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <199706162359.RAA28348@mailmx.micron.net> >In a message dated 97-06-15 18:35:53 EDT, Kym wrote: > >> Lynn gushed to Bart: > >Well, if you disagree, how about saying *why* you disagree rather than >hurling meaningless characterizations of my statements? >> >> >You did, quite awesomely! >> >> He did? > >Meaningless question. It would be far more useful to explain why *you* don't >feel that he did. >> > >> >Addressing the issue, as you did, from the point of >> >view of thoughtforms was a stroke of genius, IMHO. >> >> It was? > >See above. >> >> Ick. > >That's a truly articulate, enlightening remark. > >Lynn It was a joke, Lynn. Did you actually take this as serious? Wow. Conservatives. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:10:47 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Re: Reality Message-ID: <199706170012.UAA01230@NetGSI.com> >I look at objective and subjective much differently than this. The term >"objective reality" is redundant, and the term "subjective reality" is an >oxymoron. All _objects_ of perception, whether physical or not, are >_objective_. I kinda agree with you, but can also go for objective and subjective in the sense of inner vs outer "reality." Take thoughts, for example. In one sense they exist within us, in the mind, and thus are normally considered subjective. However, in the theosophical sense, they are living "things" (according to G de P) that exist objectively on the mental plane. So it all gets pretty complicated. Jerry S. Membe, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:13:35 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Duality Message-ID: <199706170015.UAA01366@NetGSI.com> >There is no perception that does not have both a subject >and an object, and there is no perception that is purely >subjective or purely objective. Bart, I agree that this is true within our 7-plane solar universe. This is a result of duality. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:19:26 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: patricstats Message-ID: <199706170037.UAA03148@ultra1.dreamscape.com> > Funny...as long as you agree that others have the right to shoot >you BEFORE you shoot them :) > Do you mean funny haha, or funny queer? Probably the latter. What convoluted logic! Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:19:33 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: insults to jews Message-ID: <199706170037.UAA03220@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >There are NO, I repeat, NO parallels between what happened to the Jews and >what is happening with the militias. This is AN INSULT to the Jewish >people. My god. > > >>In a nutshell, > >No comment. As a Jew who's been insulted more than once in lots of different ways, let me tell you -all that this one doesn't grab me as being insulting, at all, at all, rather I think the truth is that militias are just as Fascist as Nazis. All Fascists tend to be racist. The Italians not quite as violently as the Germans, but when they killed somebody because they were Jewish, the person was dead, no matter how or what. And if an Iranian Jew got tangled up in this mess, well then, maybe the Iranian Jew ain't wrapped too tight. Why else would (s)he work towards their own destruction? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:19:38 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: death & taxes Message-ID: <199706170037.UAA03472@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >> How in your opinion do taxes fit into this? What would it do if we >> eliminated taxes? and how would we maintain our highways and run our schools? > > ...easily, simply and with better more beautiful technology... > see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html The technology costs money too. lfd From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:20:44 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: patricstats Message-ID: <33A5CA4A.42FE@earthlink.net> > Do you mean funny haha, or funny queer? Probably the latter. What convoluted > logic! I mean the former in hopefully good cheer...I would never use humor to sarcastically derride another and if this was the impression please accept my apologies...my focus is on the issues (seeking to avoid quips) Peace, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:23:11 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: insults to jews Message-ID: <33A5CADC.33FE@earthlink.net> > rather I think the truth is that militias are just as Fascist as > Nazis. As I am one who knows militias I assure that the majority are not fascist but fully support the principles of inalienable rights for all. Peace, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:25:04 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: death & taxes Message-ID: <33A5CB4D.5A5F@earthlink.net> > >> How in your opinion do taxes fit into this? What would it do if we > >> eliminated taxes? and how would we maintain our highways and run our schools? > > > > ...easily, simply and with better more beautiful technology... > > see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html > > The technology costs money too. Actually "resource based economics" which follows from "time cycle barter economics" needs not money but a flow of free trade. .. see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:23:34 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Karma and stuff (3) Message-ID: In message <970615142602_-959734712@emout12.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >When I use the term "karma" here, by the way, I'm not referring to it as >"good" nor "bad" karma (a terminology that I have problems with anyway). So do I. I think it is nonsense. > The >karma resulting from an action freely taken is, IMHO, more liberating >(ultimately). The more that the mind and the emotional body are involved in >the performance of any action, the greater the effect the action has on the >development of the quality of the vehicles. I base this on the belief that >karma, as an impersonal law, interacts with the matter/energy comprising the >vehicles. The more subtle the energy (or vehicle) involved in motivating the >action, the more potentially powerful the karmic reaction on the vehicles. >(Please feel free to shoot holes in this as you wish. I know I'm wading into >some pretty wild water with this. ;-D) When another entity, such as a > government, makes the decisions for the individual, the resulting karma on >the individual level is more limited in terms of the vehicle affected and the >resulting evolutionary growth. I see a problem here in the use of the concept of "vehicles" common in theosophical literature, and which I susect you are adopting (more or less). I only recogise - from practical work and experience - two aspects of a human being which might be called "vehicles." One is the physical body, for which karma means that if you bang your thumb with a hammer you get a sore thumb. The other is the multifaceted "soul" which I understand in Kabalist rather than Theosophical terms. When the physical thumb above gets hurt, then at the soul level we are upset [like we may feel very unhappy inside, but not show it outside]. > At a different level than either of these "vehicles" we seem to have what Theosophy probably thinks of as "Higher Manas" and Kabala as (depending on the type of Kabala - complicated, innit?) Briatic consciousness which may not be subject to "karma" at all. Burble burble ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:09:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Karma and stuff Message-ID: <1ribxMAVPepzEw5b@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970615142602_-959734712@emout12.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >That must have been an absolutely horrendous experience! Destruction on that >scale is usually capable of being wrought only by governments, in this case >the Nazi government. One of the early acts of the Nazi government was to >disarm the German population. (This was also one of the things that King >George tried to do to the American colonialists as soon as they became >restless.) Had the German people not been disarmed the Nazis may not have >been able to retain power long enough to unleash the horrors they did in >Europe which included bombing your aunt's street. A disarmed citizenry is >extremely vulnerable to tyranny and its horrors, I believe. You sent a long post, Lynn, so I shall try and respond to it in parts, as here. I don't know how many of the German people under the Nazis were armed, but my guess is not all of them by any means. The fact that is often forgotten in general discussions re Nazis was that the Nazi party in pre-WWII Germany was fairly and democratically elected. As for king George, well he was crazy. Whether or not the colonialists in what became the US were armed, he had not a hope in hell of waging a successful campaign from such a vast distance. Sending fresh ammo some 3000 miles by sailing ships would not have worked too well ... As an aside, one of the lesser known dangers in England during WWII was shrapnel falling out of the sky during air raids. We kids used to try to collect it after air raids - a BIG piece was highly prized. I found a real good lump one day, only it was still very hot, and I burned my hand. People were occasionally killed by the stuff making holes in them on its way to earth. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:28:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Karma and stuff (4 - end) Message-ID: In message <970615142602_-959734712@emout12.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >Right action is performed out of fear and inertia rather >than out of what is perceived from higher levels of the ego (not even >bringing the Ego into this yet) and the evolution of humanity is, IMHO, >slowed. I am not at all sure that humanity "evolves" at all. ndividuals *develop* and may improve on what they were before developing, but humanity? that's another story altogether. If we were to go into all the root-race stuff (about which I am sceptical) we might have to consider that throughout human history there have been a number of Humanities, some quite different from others. Different, not necessarily more (or less) "advanced." As Ogden Nash said (I think): "Progress was alright once, but it's gone on far too long." Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:48:32 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: CWl Message-ID: <199706170206.WAA00168@ultra1.dreamscape.com> > He >*admitted* doing more than this, and it's all there in the >record. Scuse me, but he admitted no such thing. People said things and he decided not to defend himself. That's quite different. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:14:39 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Misstatements Message-ID: <19970616.171325.10127.1.trr@juno.com> On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:17:02 -0400 (EDT) "K. Paul Johnson" writes: >I have let the past five or so digests go by unread; knowing >just by the headers that the posts would be by and large not >worth reading (IMO) and containing silly arguments. > >I read today's and confirmed that judgment, with such howlers >as: Tom saying Jimmy Carter would have "laid down our weapons" >in the struggle with the Soviet Union. Tom, are you under 25? The statement that Carter would have "laid down our weapons" was meant as an exaggeration, to be more relevant as a type of example in the discussion over whether _any_ self-defense was justified than it was meant to be historically accurate. Those who advocate that all self-defense is wrong should advocate that we lay down all of our weapons. >the military buildup of the 1980s, and the increase of tension with the >Soviets, *began* under Carter after several years of detente >under the Republiicans. The Olympic boycott was symbolic of >this. Then why do Democrats, in trying to pass off the responsibility for the accelerated budget deficits in the 1980s, cite Ronald Reagan's military buildup, instead of their own increases in spending, as the primary culprit? And I have never heard anyone imply that Carter was more responsible than Reagan was for winning the Cold War. Are you saying that it would have been done even faster and more efficiently under 12 more years of Carter/Mondale than it was under Reagan/Bush? >Or the statement that "Besant supported CWL" in the case >of the boys' claims of sexual abuse. She was deeply involved >in the proceedings that led to his resignation from the society >in 1906 and publicly condemned him. Two years later she let >him back in, but never endorsed what he had been doing. She might not have endorsed what he did, for all I know, but she certainly supported him personally. "Letting him back in" seems like quite an understatement in light of how closely they worked together and how much she depended on him over the next few decades. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:13:08 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Karma and stuff (2) Message-ID: In message <970615142602_-959734712@emout12.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >Hi Alan, > >I should warn you here that most of what underlies my approach to personal >freedom, the role of government, etc. is based on my interpretation of the >operation of Law of Karma in the evolution of humanity. So my response is >heavily based on that and is full of personal opinion. ;-D (This is also >taking Bart's wonderful concept when he equated freedom with the "ability to >make decisions about karma" and running with it, though he may not >necessarily agree with all the places I end up.) Two questions: 1. What *is* your interpretation of the operation of the law of karma? Mine is partly indicated by my use of lower-case here ... :-) > >I don't agree that >large corporations are the sole regulators of mass markets nor that greed >motivates all of their actions. But that's another potential thread in >itself. ;-D Nor do I, and so it is! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:13:48 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: CWl Message-ID: <19970616.201222.10127.4.trr@juno.com> On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:06:03 -0400 (EDT) liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) writes: >> He *admitted* doing more than this, and it's all there in the >>record. >Scuse me, but he admitted no such thing. People said things and he >decided not to defend himself. That's quite different. > >Liesel I will be at the library of the Seattle lodge on Wednesday, and I would like to read more about this issue. I recall biographies of Annie Besant and of Krishnamurti mentioning it. Are there better sources than that? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:42:18 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Karma and regulation (was Regulation) Message-ID: <19970616.194120.10127.3.trr@juno.com> On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Wildefire@aol.com writes: >When I use the term "karma" here, by the way, I'm not referring to it >as "good" nor "bad" karma (a terminology that I have problems with >anyway). If karma cannot be seen as good or bad, then it is irrelevant. Only to the extent that karma serves as a motivating force in either pleasurably reassuring one that what one did was good or as a disciplining force in painfully teaching one that what one did was bad, is it relevant. What good would it do to understand karma if it did not change behavior? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 0:32:10 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Bart and fags Message-ID: <199706170432.AAA14715@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Bart, I am certainly familiar with the practice of homosexuality in English public schools *amongst the students.* That masturbation was ever taught *by the teachers* is quite another matter. If you have ever seen evidence of such a thing, do tell. Paul PS-- "Fag" is a term for a younger boy who is made to serve an older one in all manner of ways. "All fagged out" is an expression that relates to this idea of having to work hard. So the original meaning was a servant, from which the sexual connotation came. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:44:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: On past issues (some questioning) Message-ID: In message <33A4A8FA.13BE@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > It was standard operating procedure in British public schools, among >other things. > > Bart Lidofsky You ever been in an English public school? it wasn't in mine. Alan the Brit. (Palmer's Endowed School for Boys, 1949) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:50:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Weapons Europe's problems! Message-ID: In message <33A4B377.71AF@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> No one invaded Switzerland because it was a valuable asset as a spy and >> communications center, a kind of useful Oasis in the middle of the war. >> No one in their right mind would have suposed that the amount of >> weaponry possessed by the Swiss would have bothered the Nazi war machine >> much! > > According to documents discovered after the war, Germany considered >attacks directly against the U.S., but decided against them specifically >because the populace was almost universally armed. > > Bart Lidofsky What does that have to do with Switzerland? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:17:05 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Duality Message-ID: <33A68041.4BF1@sprynet.com> Gerald Schueler wrote: > > >There is no perception that does not have both a subject > >and an object, and there is no perception that is purely > >subjective or purely objective. > > Bart, I agree that this is true within our 7-plane solar universe. > This is a result of duality. Duality? Or, perhaps polarity? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:20:45 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: CWl Message-ID: <33A6811D.5FB@sprynet.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > > He > >*admitted* doing more than this, and it's all there in the > >record. > > Scuse me, but he admitted no such thing. People said things and he decided > not to defend himself. That's quite different. I don't remember the source, but I am reasonably sure that Leadbeater admitted to teaching the boys how to masturbate. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:23:52 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Misstatements Message-ID: <33A681D8.2BC3@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > > The statement that Carter would have "laid down our weapons" was meant as > an exaggeration, to be more relevant as a type of example in the > discussion over whether _any_ self-defense was justified than it was > meant to be historically accurate. Those who advocate that all > self-defense is wrong should advocate that we lay down all of our > weapons. To paraphrase from a work by a well-known Theosophist: Jimmy Carter is a good man. He was a bad President. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:27:03 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: On past issues (some questioning) Message-ID: <33A68297.78A9@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <33A4A8FA.13BE@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > > It was standard operating procedure in British public schools, among > >other things. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > You ever been in an English public school? it wasn't in mine. > > Alan the Brit. (Palmer's Endowed School for Boys, 1949) Approximately 50 years after the fact. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:28:10 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Weapons Europe's problems! Message-ID: <33A682DA.6969@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <33A4B377.71AF@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >> No one invaded Switzerland because it was a valuable asset as a spy and > >> communications center, a kind of useful Oasis in the middle of the war. > >> No one in their right mind would have suposed that the amount of > >> weaponry possessed by the Swiss would have bothered the Nazi war machine > >> much! > > > > According to documents discovered after the war, Germany considered > >attacks directly against the U.S., but decided against them specifically > >because the populace was almost universally armed. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > What does that have to do with Switzerland? The message to which your message was answering. Bart Lidofsky (keep up with the threads, man!) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:52:38 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: What Patrick Thinks Message-ID: <33A6EB06.512E@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > >From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." > Subject: Re: Patrick's stats > George Patton, D. > Eisenhauer, etc., all servers of good. > > P Yeeaahh....shure, speccially they. Estrella P.S. Why not put better Gandhi better? he was indeed a server of good. And a fighter without weapons. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:05:05 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: Your jokes are GREAT!! Message-ID: <33A6EDF1.204A@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > >>Those with membership cards (obtainable from Chuck for a reasonable fee, > >>I have heard). > >> > >>Alan :-) > > > >NO! NO! NO! We're the Seventh Root Race. The Sixth Root Race is a bunch of > >potatoes and carrots running around a track. > > > >Chuck the Heretic > > Along with the purple hairy bunnies? > > Alan Chuck, that was a WONDERFUL JOKE!! hahahaha, i laughed a lot with it. Also the Alan's final quote was very good. Thanks for making us smile on a rainy day. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:00:02 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: CWL, to Alan Message-ID: <199706172010.QAA02414@NetGSI.com> >The only way to check on CWL's or anyone else's clairvoyance >is to develop one's own abilities as fully as possible. Alan, I agree with you. In fact, this is the one reason I respect CWL. He was not 100% (nor was HPB) but most of his stuff is pretty close to my own experiences. (I have yet to go to Mars!) Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:14:20 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Vehicles Message-ID: <199706172017.QAA02694@NetGSI.com> > I only recogise - from practical work and experience - two >aspects of a human being which might be called "vehicles." ... Gee, two seems so limiting. I prefer seven, which I also recognise from practical work and experience. Its all a matter of how one defines "soul." Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:20:23 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: What Patrick Thinks Message-ID: <33A6D54D.382D@earthlink.net> > > George Patton, D. > > Eisenhauer, etc., all servers of good. > > > > P > > Yeeaahh....shure, speccially they. > > Estrella > > P.S. Why not put better Gandhi better? he was indeed a server of good. > And a fighter without weapons. Quite right...and appropriate for his circumstanes..as were those mentioned above...the question that needs to be asked is why no Ghandhi apeared in Germany before WWII... ...the answer...he did...the Nazis murdered him...it is always necessary to know the degree of evil that one is dealing with and act appropriatley. Namaste, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html *** (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 16:28:22 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Sundry Message-ID: <199706172028.QAA24418@leo.vsla.edu> Tom: the root cause of the ballooning deficit was not either the Reagan military buildup or the Democratic congress's domestic spending, but that absolutely stupid and pointless 1981 tax cut. The other two factors just expanded the harm done at the beginning. As for Carter's hypothetical second term, I don't give Reagan credit for "winning the Cold War" which was inevitable in any case. But "what if..." scenarios are just games, and cannot produce truth-functional answers. Liesel: I like you and don't like to rub in painful things. But facts are facts, and the record is there; CWL admitted "giving indicative action." Don't recall who asked about sources, but the lodge library may well not have the most authoritative secondary source, The Elder Brother. Apart from that, primary source materials from those years are very hard to find, although JHE has them. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:27:37 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: CWL, to Alan Message-ID: <33A6D6FE.405B@earthlink.net> > >The only way to check on CWL's or anyone else's clairvoyance > >is to develop one's own abilities as fully as possible. > > Alan, I agree with you. In fact, this is the one reason I > respect CWL. He was not 100% (nor was HPB) but > most of his stuff is pretty close to my own experiences. > (I have yet to go to Mars!) Many of the writings of HPB and CWL (the SD excepted in terms of fact as it is accurate) were writtin in the context of the "Jules Verne" scifi energy of the times...the idea is to give a certian philosophical point...also perhaps CWL's Mars description is valid on other planes...ah yes that's it! :) Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:50:49 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Sundry Message-ID: <33A6DC6A.6A39@earthlink.net> > the root cause of the ballooning deficit was not either > the Reagan military buildup or the Democratic congress's > domestic spending, but that absolutely stupid and pointless > 1981 tax cut. Ah...actually the deficit is caused by unequal taxes and the solution is to eliminate just such... (see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) ...the current world finance illusion (ref the Newsweek article of y2k, etc.) will end soon enough...and the world will be a better place :) -- Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:07:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias Message-ID: <970617170702_1688420438@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-17 07:45:25 EDT, Kym wrote: > It was a joke, Lynn. > > Did you actually take this as serious? Wow. I took it in the context of your other message to me in the same thread which downloaded in the same batch of mail. So, it sounded sarcastic rather than humorous to me. I'm glad you found it funny. If you put a smiley in it, I'll know to laugh the next time. ;-D (Why do I find myself having to write this? Me, who subscribes to joke lists even, who compulsively cracks jokes... Why this is a First and I should mark this date on my calendar--The First Time It's Ever Been Implied That Lynn Lacked A Sense of Humor.) > > Conservatives. Conservatives? Where??? Nothing but us anarcho-libertarian types at this email address. Sorry. If you're looking for the Bedroom Police or forced-prayer-in-school crowd, you're going to have to try another address. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:08:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias - to Lynn Message-ID: <970617170716_815181654@emout11.mail.aol.com> (Kym quotes me here) > >Excuse me? You have the nerve to claim that I've insulted a certain group > of > >people after the degrading trophy remarks *you* made about minorities in > >militias? > ..and replies... > Yes, I do. . .and you are excused. Let's get something perfectly CLEAR. I was not asking you to excuse me for my remarks. "Excuse me" is just an expression commonly used when someone makes an off-the-wall remark as I considered yours to be--as in "Excuse me, did I hear you correctly?" This is yet another example of condescending, patronizing behavior on your part because you know and anyone else reading what I said IN CONTEXT knows that I was not truly asking YOU to excuse anything!!!!! In fact, I've decided that it is a waste of time and bandwidth to respond to you in any future messages because you don't observe minimal standards of fairness. This kind of crap is intellectual dishonesty and you know it!!! Or is this some more of your "humor"? If it is, I'm not laughing. > ..Kym is quoting me again... > >He was describing how the Nazis demonized the Jews prior to WWII so > >that the Germans would accept what the Nazis would eventually do to them. > No > >way does this trivialize the monstrous horror of the atrocities committed > >upon the Jews, so where is the insult? > ..then obviously misses the point made by the words "so that the Germans would accept what the Nazis would EVENTUALLY do to them" by saying... > The militia is being required to FOLLOW THE LAW. They decide to take up > arms when things don't go their way. > > This is NOT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE JEWS. The Jews did not stockpile arms or > threaten to overthrow the government or refuse to pay taxes, etc. . . No one said that this is what the Jews were doing. (Though I surely wouldn't have blamed any of them had they done so. An armed citizenry goes a long way toward keeping monsters like the Nazis at bay.) The only parallel that we were drawing was with the preparation that was being made--the demonization or dehumanization process. At least, that was what *I* meant. The Nazis had an agenda which was to exterminate the Jews. The U.S. government has an agenda which is to dismantle (at minimum) the militias. (I think it ultimately wants to extinguish the ideas animating the militias, but it's hard to do that without also extinguishing the people who hold them.) The Nazis villified the Jews so that the Germans would accept the atrocities they later committed against them. The U.S. government is villifying the militias so that the American people will not support them but will support whatever action it decides to take against them. *That's* the parallel. Period. I can't draw the parallel any further because I am not clairvoyant and cannot see exactly what the U.S. government will do to the militias if it has the support of the American people. However, the government had 51 days to villify the Branch Davidians before it slaughtered them with the consent of a chillingly large sector of the American sheeple. > > I still maintain that you and Bart comparing the plight of the Jews with the > "plight" of the militia is an INSULT to the Jewish people and a minimizing > of the Holocaust. That's what's so stupid about this whole discussion!!!! Neither Bart nor I were comparing the plight of the Jews to what was going on with the militias. We were comparing what the Nazis did in *preparation* (*before* the atrocities were committed) to what the U.S. government is doing in *preparation* for moving against the militias. PERIOD. Why is this so *difficult* to understand????!!!!!!!!!! YOU are the one who is actually trivializing the horror of what was done to the Jews by seeing insult where none was intended. Has it ever dawned on you that our even making reference to the Holocaust in this way, that the very act of doing so, is testimony to how horribly evil it was? That it is a historical benchmark, emblematic of a monstrous crime against humanity? And, being that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, I feel that we need to remain vigililant for repetitions of the steps that the Nazis took in preparing for it to ensure that it never indeed happens again--with any group of people. I note that you didn't quote or mention my remarks saying that I would have agreed with Bart just as strongly if he had used the dehumanization of Africans as "justification" for slavery for the parallel. Didn't that parallel of yet another mass genocide bother you? But then, if you had included those remarks, they would have undermined your whole sense of outrage because you'd find it a lot harder to accuse me of trivializing genocide. After all, I wouldn't be likely to trivialize the genocidal enslavement of my ancestors. > >And, just to make sure that you are totally clear about where I stand on > this > >entire issue. None of this is said to justify the actions of that fascist > >group that has been terrorizing Jacqi's neighbors or friends. > That's wonderful. And I believe she/he spells her/his name Jaqi. > Why does that sound so snide? Anyway, absolutely no slight was intended if I indeed misspelled the name. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:08:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Karma and stuff (3) Message-ID: <970617170721_-1463090858@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-16 21:51:26 EDT, Alan wrote: (quoting me) > >The more subtle the energy (or vehicle) involved in motivating the > >action, the more potentially powerful the karmic reaction on the vehicles. > I see a problem here in the use of the concept of "vehicles" common in > theosophical literature, and which I susect you are adopting (more or > less). Yes, I am using the more or less theosophical concept of vehicles. :-) > I only recogise - from practical work and experience - two > aspects of a human being which might be called "vehicles." One is the > physical body, for which karma means that if you bang your thumb with a > hammer you get a sore thumb. The other is the multifaceted "soul" which > I understand in Kabalist rather than Theosophical terms. When the > physical thumb above gets hurt, then at the soul level we are upset > [like we may feel very unhappy inside, but not show it outside]. This is fascinating!! This can indeed cast everything about the operation of the Law of Karma into a different light altogether. So, according to what you said above, am I correct in understanding that the multifaceted "soul" is cast off so to speak at the end of an incarnation and a new one created for a succeding incarnation? Oooops, am I even correct in assuming that the Kabalist viewpoint includes reincarnation? > > > At a different level than either of these "vehicles" we seem to have > what Theosophy probably thinks of as "Higher Manas" and Kabala as > (depending on the type of Kabala - complicated, innit?) Briatic > consciousness which may not be subject to "karma" at all. Complicated indeed. :-) But, I've been interested in Kabala for various reasons for quite a few years and really should get around to looking into it further. I'm sure I'll find some good stuff on the Web, at least as a starting point. > > Burble burble ... > ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D Indeed!!!!! (ROFL, Estrella, is Rolling On The Floor Laughing) Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:10:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Karma and stuff (4 - end) Message-ID: <970617170718_1418532438@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-17 01:33:54 EDT, Alan wrote: > I am not at all sure that humanity "evolves" at all. ndividuals > *develop* and may improve on what they were before developing, but > humanity? that's another story altogether. If we were to go into all > the root-race stuff (about which I am sceptical) we might have to > consider that throughout human history there have been a number of > Humanities, some quite different from others. Different, not necessarily > more (or less) "advanced." As Ogden Nash said (I think): > > "Progress was alright once, but it's gone on far too long." ROFL over that last line. ;-D It may be that I *need* to believe that humanity itself evolves. (For me, it justifies personal spiritual development as part of serving humanity.) That whole root-race thing is not a concept that resonates with me either, maybe because the scope of it is too cosmic for me to intuit. However, your position makes sense in view of the Kabalistic (your favorite flavor ;-D) view of only a physical vehicle and a Briatic consciousness which may not be subject to karma. An "evolving" humanity makes sense only from a viewpoint where there are multiple vehicles in the planes affected by karma and that development of a particular individual stimulates the vehicles of other individuals into a higher state of vibration so to speak. At least that's how I see it. Just a sort of weird aside... This happened to come up right as I am in the middle of indexing a chapter discussing evolution in an anthropology text book. Biologists and anthropologists do not see evolution as being goal-directed as laypeople often do with one species being "superior" or more "evolved" than another. Your remark about different, but not necessarily more advanced, humanities has an interesting correspondence to that. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:10:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Karma and stuff Message-ID: <970617170725_-762477866@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-16 23:10:49 EDT, Alan wrote: > You sent a long post, Lynn, so I shall try and respond to it in parts, > as here. I don't know how many of the German people under the Nazis > were armed, but my guess is not all of them by any means. The fact that > is often forgotten in general discussions re Nazis was that the Nazi > party in pre-WWII Germany was fairly and democratically elected. Oh, I agree with you all the way on this. It's been quite a few years since I read the early chapters of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", but the democratic election of the Nazi party does coincide with my sieve-like memory. They did some nasty things like the Reichstag fire, etc. in their rise to and consolidation of power, but they were indeed elected. > > As for king George, well he was crazy. Whether or not the colonialists > in what became the US were armed, he had not a hope in hell of waging a > successful campaign from such a vast distance. Sending fresh ammo some > 3000 miles by sailing ships would not have worked too well ... Those would have been looooooong supply lines, even today. ;-D > > As an aside, one of the lesser known dangers in England during WWII was > shrapnel falling out of the sky during air raids. We kids used to try > to collect it after air raids - a BIG piece was highly prized. I found > a real good lump one day, only it was still very hot, and I burned my > hand. People were occasionally killed by the stuff making holes in them > on its way to earth. > > Alan :-) I'm truly glad that you weren't one of them!! When I was working for NATO, the British technician I worked with told me similar stories about the air raids, including the terrifying whistle of incoming V2 rockets, the balloons used to confound enemy bombers, etc. To this day, I look upon those who survived the London Blitz without a permanent case of post-traumatic stress disorder as a truly hardy group of people. (One of my favorite movies, BTW, is about WWII from the viewpoint of children living in London during the blitz and the Lake area where the main characters went to escape it. Your experience with collecting shrapnel sounds incredibly like the types of things the kids did in the movie. I think the movie was called "Hope and Glory". That sieve-like memory again!!) Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:10:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias - to Lynn Message-ID: <970617170705_912509526@emout08.mail.aol.com> Kym, I'm replying to parts of this in separate messages to reduce the potential length of any one message. In a message dated 97-06-16 20:23:56 EDT, Kym wrote: (quoting me here) > >First of all, have you read the literature of "most" militias or are you > >basing your remark on what you've heard in the traditional news media? > > Yes, I have read the writings of most militia groups. I was employed by a > particular organization in Idaho, where I live, as an assistant to the > Housing Director about two years ago. There was a landlord, a member of the > militia, who was evicting a Jewish family. The Jewish family claimed it was > due to anti-Semitism. After an investigation it concluded that it was, > indeed, a case of racism. In order for us to help this family, we needed to > compile an enormous amount of information on militias. I was unlucky enough > to have ended up being assigned as the one to read the "literature" of most > militias. > > Not all militias are racist, but I stand by my statement that most are - and > I have based it on the information provided by the militias themselves. I'll won't continue to challenge your statement here because I haven't read the literature of "most" militias. Also I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that a) you somehow had a list of *all* militias in the U.S. and somehow also knew for certain that the list included all militias or nearly all of them; b) that you were able to contact and receive literature from such a sizeable percentage of *all* militias that you were able to say that you received racist information from *most* militias. Granted, this is the benefit of a rather big doubt, but I'll concede on that point if you say that both a and b are true. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:10:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Militias - to Lynn Message-ID: <970617170710_-294591018@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-16 20:23:56 EDT, Kym wrote: (quoting me here) > >As an African-American, I think I know what is or is not racist, thank you. > Lynn? How do you know what race I am? Or anybody else on this list? Huh? After re-reading my own sentence ten times, it *still* looks like I said what race I am, not what race you or anyone else on the list are!!! Sheeeesh!!!! > > Why are you "thanking" me for you knowing about racism? Should I give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that this is an example of your humor? Or is this some sort of game where you're feigning ignorance of a commonly used idiomatic expression in an attempt to get me to waste mental energy in responding to it? > > And is is not possible for someone other than an African-American to know > about racism? Of course it's possible. However, the remarks that you made about minorities in militias don't impress me with *your* knowlege of it, at least not from having experienced it and therefore in terms of trying to avoid experiencing more of it. (See below for further explanation of this.) > >Claiming that most militias use their nonwhite members as trophies is > stating > >that the nonwhite members of militias are incapable of making these > >judgements for themselves, therefore your opinion of their intelligence > must > >be quite low. > > It is?! Firstly, how do you know they're not choosing to be used as > "trophies?" I'm using Occam's razor. Most people don't chose to be used! And many of us African-Americans (which is why I made my earlier statement about being one) recognize when we *are* being used and wouldn't voluntarily put ourselves in a position where we would be used because it's just downright masochistic. So the simplest explanation that fits the facts is that they are NOT being used. This is what I meant when I said above about knowing about racism from having experienced it. Most minorities would not voluntarily join with a bunch of people who hate them, regardless of how much they may hate yet another group!!!! Your explanation is downright insulting because it implies that all or most of these individuals are stupid masochists. Now, I'm using Occam's razor. What are *you* using other than a political agenda? >Secondly, one doesn't have to be white to be racist. For > example, in one interview I read, an Indian gentleman and an > African-American gentlemen claimed they belonged to a militia because that > militia "recognized the Jewish threat." They openly admitted that the > members of the group, racially mixed as they were, didn't particularly like > each other, but their common and strong hatred for the Jews served a > powerful bond. I agree with you (for once) that one does not have to be white to be racist. Racism in any form is absolutely despicable, regardless of the races involved. But, based on this one interview you read, you have extrapolated this sick situation to nearly all militias and minorities in militias? This is not logical because most white racists hate blacks and Indians as much as they hate Jews. The KKK, for that matter, is anti-Semitic. Do you see blacks wanting to join it (even if they could)? It is therefore not logical that this situation you described where blacks and Indians joined a nonblack anti-Semitic group would be very common. (Note that I said "nonblack" so that you won't try to confound this particular point by bringing up black racist/anti-Semitic groups, which I know exist and strongly disagree with.) > > Do I doubt their intelligence? HELL NO! It's their very high intelligence > that is so dangerous - if militia members were stupid we'd have nothing to > fear. Huh? This sounds like a reversed version of the Illuminati fears of some of the fringier militia groups. Sinister intelligence... ooooooh...... ;-D Seriously though... If militia members seem to be so intelligent to you, could it perhaps be that some of what some of them are saying makes sense to you? ;-D And what's to fear about freedom many militia members espouse? Ooops. Forget that I asked that. Freedom is very scarey to those who prefer the security of being told what to do and of being "taken care of". In another post, I'll address that whole issue about those parallels Bart and I made that you so vehemently object to. I won't bother to respond to those questions that sound like game-playing rather than sincere attempts to have intelligent interaction on the subject. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:55:12 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: On the subject of militias (One has to proceed with care!!) Message-ID: <33A707C0.1591@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > > Most militias are racist - all one need do is read their literature. > > That statement is completely FALSE Wrong...is it true.unfortunately.if not racist, they are facist, sexist, you name it. > > ...most militias have an oath the same as the U.S. president and > military to protect and serve the U.S. Consittution and Declaration of > Independence. The VAST majority of militia participants are there > because they believe in freedom ans inalienable rights for all. As Wayne's saying:" NOT!!" > > > There are NO, I repeat, NO parallels between what happened to the Jews and > > what is happening with the militias. This is AN INSULT to the Jewish > > people. My god. > > Woa...the violation of basic rights is an exact parralell and the > slaughter at Waco and murder at Montana is a prelude of what would be > done if could be... > > P > You cannot do an atrocity and justify that was done because of another atrocity was being commited. More on the subject of militias: > As I am one who knows militias I assure that the majority are not > fascist but fully support the principles of inalienable rights for all. > > Peace, > P That is the problem: you don't know well what is really a definition of militia. I think was Jaqi, the one who posted something about "Some militias are not racist, they tend to defend pepole rights' and stand for the pepole" -i really could'nt find the post of that,lots of past digests without reading- That is the problem: those "Good militias" are NOT MILITIAS in the accurate sense of the word. the funtioning of those militias is more accurate to the concept of guerrilla and insurgency. As accurate and precise Alan would say,Guerrillas and insurgency groups, (Kshattryas that love they community, and want to make changes -in the armed way,because it was the only way left-) join those kind of organizations in order to subvert the stablished order (Good examples right here in Mexico) In these events, in each armed group, there is an intervention of 2 diffrent polarities (like the natural law of polarity accomplishing) the ying and yang, the good and the bad. When the bad part is the one that domminates (In perverse/erroneous forms of taught) the very very right wing armed groups (Like the ultraright facist militias) and the very very left wing armed groups (Like the maoist type armed groups and guerrillas-bad guerrillas,killers of pepole by stupid motives-) Appear, those Kshattryas want power, want to fight, but for a wrong reason. Let us not confound the insurgency type of armed movement with a facist armed group like most US militias. And, just to deppress Patrick (And the pepole that STILL think that those paramililtary militias have good motives in their fight) Do you know that those kind of militias (As also some contrarevolutionary groups in latin and south America,and some ultraleft guerrilla type groups) ARE PAYED BY THE GOVERMENT ITSELF TO MAKE CAOS?? In some cases, some of these groups are SO EFECTIVE,that subvert and destroy a democratic-well established goverment (As did the CIA in Guatemala in 1952, as did in Chile in 1973, etc etc etc....can i continue?) No, i find it very depressing.i hope in US the "Bad militias" don't win. The only way they can be deafeated, is by more precise doccumentary public press (Not morbid media) on the subject, so the US pepole know what kind of neighbor have. If you see cablevision, i recomend to search in Cartoon Network an old serie made by Hanna-Barbera named "Wait till your father gets home" was a very critic one in its era, of the awful anticommunism of that time,(1972) and i bet my pants that many of you not only didn't saw those cartoons, but not even knew of them!! is so agressive that the simpsons looks more like a mediocre liberal complaint at i'ts side. Well, stop for the blablabla, i get bored with that...Kym, Lynn, don't fight for stupidities...be friends. it's the only way we can change things for the good of all.do it for me.please. Estrella P.S.Thanks Alan and Liesel and Doss for your good and nice commentaries on my subject. i'll keep them in mind. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:58:45 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: a big "?" to Doss Message-ID: <33A70895.5F08@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hi Doss hey, what is wrong that i didn't got more letters of theos-world?? Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:09:19 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: On the subject of militias (One has to proceed with care!!) Message-ID: <33A6EEC5.11AF@earthlink.net> Thank you for your thorough response... Most militia's are totally dedicated to the protection of freedom for all human beings...the influence of gov't agents on such is well known and understood. Please consider that the word "militia" as used in the U.S. Constitution's 2nd amendment means a citizenry which is able to appropriately defend itself and is regulated by the local State. Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:27:22 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Regarding Estrella's plea for peace Message-ID: <199706172227.QAA02947@mailmx.micron.net> Estrella wrote: >...Kym. . .don't >fight. . .it's the only way we can change >things for the good of all. do it for me. please. (I snipped some out to skew it to fit my agenda) Oh, OK! Since you insist, Estrella. I'll quit just for YOU - but it's gonna hurt - it's gonna hurt really bad. But you asked so divinely. . .how can I refuse? Kumbaya (ick!) Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:36:40 GMT From: "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." Subject: Karma and the personal path Message-ID: <199706172236.WAA04414@rvik.ismennt.is> Tom Robertson wrote: If karma cannot be seen as good or bad, then it is irrelevant. Only to the extent that karma serves as a motivating force in either pleasurably reassuring one that what one did was good or as a disciplining force in painfully teaching one that what one did was bad, is it relevant. What good would it do to understand karma if it did not change behavior? Einar here. I am not writing this to oppose what Tom or others have said, on the contrary I think I understand and agree that the purpose in understanding how karma works is to learn, in fact it seems to me that we are here only to learn. I just want to elaborate a little on the nuts and bolts of the "Law" (from my perpetually psychological point of view), as well as the problem of semantics involved when we engage in the natural and important act of discussing, - karma as well as other things. I feel that the discussion of good or bad karma is rather elusive. My old mentor used to say; "There exists no virtue in the world, that has not some time or some place been looked upon as vice - and vice versa". Good or bad is a matter of opinion, or rather, a matter of value. If by good or bad we mean painful or pleasant we are at least closer to the "learning phase" of the karmic principle. But I would like to point out the fact (I think!) that there is no relation between "pain and pleasure" and "good and bad". As a matter of fact, from most spiritual point of valuing, pain may be looked upon as "the most valuable and benificial thimg there is", and pleasure as "the most dangerous and malacious temptation of all"!! So then, don't we have any absolute means of valuing karma? Well, we should at least be very careful in condemning the deeds of others, let alone the doers. As a matter of fact, I can't see what bisness another peoples karma is to us. Or, is it? There is a serious spiritual dialemma here, or should we say contradiction, paradox maybe? It has to do with our perpetual powerplay. It is really no business of ours how other people use their free will - it has been given to them for their own private use (in fact they have earned it) and it is their own sole responsibility (and THAT is karma). On the other side we are all "the world", the whole world - and the whole world is our "responsibility". Well, don't take it too seriously though! The only karma I need to concern my self of is my own karma, not my karmic debts - they will take good care of themselves - but how I can stop making more karmic debts, how I can live in this world harmoniously, beneficiently. For this I have to understand the mechanism of karma, and more importantly the mechanism of my psyche - for it is within the psyche that ALL my karma originates. It has been said that desires are the main ingredinence in karma. I would like to add the ingredience of the free will. In the psyche desire is the factor of negativity - not as bad or good - only non-content, i.e. craving or resisting change. Together with the socalled free Will it is a powerful denominator in the creativity of the world. It is also the main factor in suffering, when combined with ignorance that is. And Ignorance with a capital I, is not knowing the true nature of separation and the true nature of the Universal Unity. Finally I would like to introduce another sanskrit word into the discussion, namely Dharma. Dharma seems to contain many meanings, most of them rather elusive. One is connected to karma in a way, somtimes translated as duty, sometimes as the personal path of life. Dharma, in this sense, is a personal thing. My dharma is the natural path of my life. If I can find and connect to this personal path, I will not make any more karma. One might think that this would be forefeiting ones free will, but as I understand it, there are still million different possibilities or choices within the natural path of our life. The key to this personal path is true and profound understanding, total absence of selfcenteredness (or "personal" will) and unconditional loving kindness. Rings a bell, doesn't it? Just some thoughts for consideration - not to be taken seriously! With LOVE to you all. Einar from Iceland. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Let's change the world to the better, by each of us changing ourselves, TOGETHER. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ http://rvik.ismennt.is/~annasb/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:16:21 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Sundry Message-ID: <19970617.161529.11503.5.trr@juno.com> On Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:28:49 -0400 (EDT) "K. Paul Johnson" writes: >Tom: the root cause of the ballooning deficit was not either >the Reagan military buildup or the Democratic congress's >domestic spending, but that absolutely stupid and pointless >1981 tax cut. I read that federal tax revenues were roughly $530 billion in Carter's last year and roughly $980 billion in Reagan's last year. The Coolidge, Kennedy, and Reagan tax cuts have often been cited as evidence that tax cuts, by stimulating business activity, raise tax revenues. >CWL admitted "giving indicative action." Were his motives to instruct or for personal gratification? I believe the former. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:37:10 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Karma and the personal path Message-ID: <19970617.163603.11503.10.trr@juno.com> On Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:38:06 -0400 (EDT) "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." writes: >I feel that the discussion of good or bad karma is rather elusive. My >old mentor used to say; "There exists no virtue in the world, that has >not some time or some place been looked upon as vice - and vice >versa". Good or bad is a matter of opinion, or rather, a matter of value. That people disagree about what is good and what is bad does not mean that they do not objectively exist. If good and bad are not regarded to exist objectively, then perception of them should be dismissed as arbitrary. Good may be elusive, as is truth, but if they are merely imaginary, then seeking them would be a complete waste of time and effort. Fortunately, it is impossible for there to be no objective truth, at least, since if there was, _that_ would be an objective, absolute truth. >If by good or bad we mean painful or pleasant we are at least closer >to the "learning phase" of the karmic principle. But I would like to point >out the fact (I think!) that there is no relation between "pain and >pleasure" and "good and bad". As a matter of fact, from most spiritual >point of valuing, pain may be looked upon as "the most valuable and >benificial thimg there is", and pleasure as "the most dangerous and >malacious temptation of all"!! As means to ends, pleasure can be bad and pain good, but if there is no relation between the good and the bad that the individual does and benefit or loss to the individual, what would motivate the preference for good over bad? And if there is no preference for good over bad, why exist? >So then, don't we have any absolute means of valuing karma? Well, >we should at least be very careful in condemning the deeds of others, >let alone the doers. Careful, yes, but regard good and bad as purely arbitrary, no. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:41:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Your jokes are GREAT!! Message-ID: <970617194034_615155810@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-17 17:08:29 EDT, you write: >Chuck, that was a WONDERFUL JOKE!! hahahaha, i laughed a lot with it. >Also the Alan's final quote was very good. >Thanks for making us smile on a rainy day. >Estrella Estrella, I'm sure Alan appreciates that as much as I do. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:41:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: CWL, to Alan Message-ID: <970617193906_-728910751@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-17 16:40:31 EDT, you write: >(I have yet to go to Mars!) > > Jerry, By all means do so. There is a great resort near the equator up there with a restuarant that is out of this world! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:39:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: a big "?" to Doss Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970618003917.00dfcb88@mail.eden.com> At 05:43 PM 6/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Doss >hey, what is wrong that i didn't got more letters of theos-world?? >Estrella > Hi Estrella: Theos-world does not seem to have as much traffic as theos-l. I also did not see any msgs. So everything is ok. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:02:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: CWL Message-ID: <2WSL+EAUOzpzEwLJ@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33A6811D.5FB@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > I don't remember the source, but I am reasonably sure that Leadbeater >admitted to teaching the boys how to masturbate. > > Bart Lidofsky Some of us have sources, and you are correct. Probably JHE can give faster chapter and verse than I can. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:18:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Your jokes are GREAT!! Message-ID: We aim to please, don't we, Chucky babe? In message <33A6EDF1.204A@bahia.ens.uabc.mx>, "Romero Cortez D.Ma" writes >> >>Those with membership cards (obtainable from Chuck for a reasonable fee, >> >>I have heard). >> >> >> >>Alan :-) >> > >> >NO! NO! NO! We're the Seventh Root Race. The Sixth Root Race is a bunch of >> >potatoes and carrots running around a track. >> > >> >Chuck the Heretic >> >> Along with the purple hairy bunnies? >> >> Alan > >Chuck, that was a WONDERFUL JOKE!! hahahaha, i laughed a lot with it. >Also the Alan's final quote was very good. >Thanks for making us smile on a rainy day. >Estrella --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:17:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Karma and stuff Message-ID: In message <970617170725_-762477866@emout03.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >When I was working for NATO, >the British technician I worked with told me similar stories about the air >raids, including the terrifying whistle of incoming V2 rockets, the balloons >used to confound enemy bombers, etc. To this day, I look upon those who >survived the London Blitz without a permanent case of post-traumatic stress >disorder as a truly hardy group of people. And a very short whistle, too! By the time you realised what it was - BANG (unless you were on the receiving end, in which case instant oblivion. One of them made a direct hit on a bungalow about 3 miles from us. The V1 "buzz-bombs" were more frightening, as their engines would cut in and out in the later versions, so that when you thought the damn thing was coming down to deal some death, it suddenly started up again, then stopped again. Some of them even turned around and came back towards you after you thought they had passed over ... but I guess you heard all that as well! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:12:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: On past issues (some questioning) Message-ID: In message <33A68297.78A9@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> In message <33A4A8FA.13BE@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky >> writes >> > It was standard operating procedure in British public schools, among >> >other things. >> > >> > Bart Lidofsky >> >> You ever been in an English public school? it wasn't in mine. >> >> Alan the Brit. (Palmer's Endowed School for Boys, 1949) > > Approximately 50 years after the fact. > > Bart Lidofsky What fact? CWL's teaching? This wasn't in Public School. I think you had better provide corroborative *evidence* for this claim of "standard operating procedure." It's always easy to make sweeing generalisations. AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:08:24 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: On the subject of militias Message-ID: The meaning of the term "militia" has changed almost as drastically as the symbolism of Thor's Hammer(the swastika). Just as the swastika was, at one time, a representation of a good thing, the term "militia" was equally attributed to a group of citizens who worked together toward good ends. Patrick is correct. The militia referred to in the 2nd Amend. is an organization of sorts with the intent to protect their communities, states, etc. In "The Federalist", by Hamilton, he refers to militias as being "an auxiliary force" to the state. But, like Thor's Hammer, people have twisted it and made it into something it is not. People have taken the term, "militia", and have given it a bad name. As Estrella(I think) said, the organizations which the media gives the name "militias" are not really militias at all. Well, that's not entirely true either. In McVeigh's case, I think that perhaps the militia he was formerly a part of was actually one of the true militias. The media has, as has been pointed out, warped information a bit so that the blame could be put on the militia itself, rather than McVeigh. The facts are that McVeigh was thrown out of the militia before the bombing, and it was probably his views that got him thrown out in the first place. Now, whether the militia threw him out because of his radical views or because he wanted things done too quickly is still left to question. If the case is the latter, then the militia may have put the ideas into his head, meaning for him to be ready when the "time was right", but realizing that his tendency to "jump the gun" would put their plan into jeapordy, they got rid of him. Its hard to tell, but as for me, despite my current circumstances, I must give them the benefit of the doubt. I still stand by the "innocent until proven guilty" standard of law. (The problem we are having here is that no one wants to investigate anything in order to determine who is the guilty party, and have now begun to turn things around in order to place the blame on the victim. I believe the term used in this case is "victimization", but I'm not quite sure that's right.) My friend is writing another letter, in which there is an excerpt from "The Federalist" which I referred to earlier. I'm kind of worried about him, however. His fear and paranoia have seemed to turn into aggression, and he now talks about starting a "true militia" which will be recognized by the state as an auxiliary force. I don't know if he wants to do this to threaten the fascists, or if he really feels that the community needs militia support. If it is only the latter, I feel I can stand by him. If it is both, I will most likely leave his plans to himself. With regards to my other friends, (the ones directly assaulted by the militia), they share my views on the matter. They only want a voice, not an army. I feel that we have a strong enough government here, and if we could cure their blindness, the problems we have could easily be taken care of in peaceful and legal ways. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:08:05 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Vehicles Message-ID: In message <199706172017.QAA02694@NetGSI.com>, Gerald Schueler writes >Gee, two seems so limiting. I prefer seven, which I also >recognise from practical work and experience. Its all a >matter of how one defines "soul." How about one of the [maybe] two vehicles composed of seven parts? Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:35:56 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Sundry Message-ID: <199706180235.UAA16311@mailmx.micron.net> Paul wrote: >>CWL admitted "giving indicative action." Tom responded: >Were his motives to instruct or for personal gratification? I believe >the former. Since the beginning of time, people have mastered the art of masturbation without any formal 'hands-on' instruction. I fail to understand why CWL thought his "teaching" was necessary. How do you teach someone to touch themselves - well - correctly? It doesn't make any sense. Neither motive - "instruct or personal gratification - can be justified. I'm all for sexual education in school - but I don't think it is necessary for people to drop their pants/skirts in class to learn what they need to know. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:06:52 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: CWL, to Alan Message-ID: In message <199706172010.QAA02414@NetGSI.com>, Gerald Schueler writes >>The only way to check on CWL's or anyone else's clairvoyance >>is to develop one's own abilities as fully as possible. > >Alan, I agree with you. In fact, this is the one reason I >respect CWL. He was not 100% (nor was HPB) but >most of his stuff is pretty close to my own experiences. >(I have yet to go to Mars!) > >Jerry S. >Member, TI Well now, I could say something similar, but my caveat is that the kind of material which accords with mine and others' experience is all stuff that *could* have been lifted straight out of the writings of HPB and others. Sigh. Not that I say it was ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:11:43 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Vehicles Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970617201143.007a4100@90.0.0.1> >>gschueler@netgsi.com> writes >>Gee, two seems so limiting. I prefer seven, which I also >>recognise from practical work and experience. Its all a >>matter of how one defines "soul." > >How about one of the [maybe] two vehicles composed of seven parts? > >Alan :-) Adding to the confusion, I might mention the three upadhis. It's said that the seven principles can be broken apart into three functioning vehicles of consciousness -- the upadhis -- and that any other manner of breaking them apart would result in death. To go into this subject in any detail, though, would result in bringing in a large amount of materials and require many pages of writing. (Jerry S. is well aware of this -- we exchanged article-length postings on the subject on theos-l two to three years ago.) -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:20:15 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Theosophical Aggression? Message-ID: When I first started going through the digests yesterday, I had to laugh a little due to the large amount of sarcasm and finger-pointing, especially with regards to the thread belonging largely to Lynn and Kym. However, as I read on, the thread seemed to turn into some kind of word-war.(Word War I?) Ouch. Bad pun. My spleen twitched a little. Anyhow, let me see if I a) understand the thread, and b) have a few cents to throw in to put us back on common ground. It seems that this began due to a comparison of the Nazi gun-control and U.S. gun-control. IMHO, this is a well-founded argument with regards to the steps that are being taken now compared to the steps that were taken then. However, I cannot agree that the circumstances are the same, and perhaps not even the reason behind the action taken. Paranoia in the United States is well-founded, for we have all seen the injustices done to us by our government(s). (I say governments(plural) because of the different responsibilities that local, state, and federal governments have with respect to each other.) It is hard for U.S. citizens to believe that the system is working FOR them, when history has shown many acts against them. However, to be fair, IMHO, the people should give attention to all aspects of their proposed actions. If what the government (and/or media) is telling us is true with regards to their intent, then I can't argue with their ideas on the future results of gun-control. I have to admit that they probably know a lot more about how societies react to change than I do. If they have good intent, then they probably have well-founded theories that prove gun-control to be beneficial to society. I once heard that the greatest enemy of truth is consensus, but the source came from the "Church of the Subgenius" which, despite their intelligence and ...interesting... views, is not a very reliable source, IMO. I believe that three heads are better than one, and I'm sure that there are quite a few heads that get together to make decisions on things that affect nations. However, like I said, I can only agree with myself on the above if the action is made with good intentions and if the whole truth behind the action made is being given to the public. On the other hand, paranoid as we are, we have to look at the flip side of the coin. What if we aren't being told the whole truth? What if the government IS trying to disarm us to make us vulnerable to an even greater plan? This is a definite possibility, and it deserves just as much attention. This, I think, is where the comparison arose regarding Nazi and U.S. tactics. The Nazis probably disarmed the German populous for one reason. They wanted to make them vulnerable. Note that I said "probably". They may have had good reasons behind their gun control, and when Hitler began his rise to leadership, the former reasons were lost and the disarmed populous simply became a "Wow. I'm glad we did that." I think that Lynn and ...Paul?... are expressing two fears. 1) Even if the U.S. has good intentions with gun control, what is to keep something else from happening, for instance, another Hitler rising to power in the American government, for which disarmament would only be the destruction of the people. Gun control might be fine with an honest government, which we "kinda" have now, but governments can change overnight. For better or for worse. Germany changed from a democracy to a dictatorship because of the tactical genius of two or three men. The former Soviet Union changed from communism to democracy in less than a week(I think), (and we still don't really know if the rebellion was such a great idea...:-).) Anyhow, if the former were to happen to us, and we were unarmed, we would be lost, unable to defend ourselves. And in a country with so much cultural and racial diversity, a reoccurance of the Holocaust would be the worst massacre the world has ever seen. 2) The government may not even have good intentions. Well, they are probably good to them, but to us it may be different. I guess what I am trying to say is, the goverment may be hiding a lot from us regarding their intent behind gun control. It just might be that they are planning something that they KNOW will be resisteed by the people, and they are trying to lessen the potential threat of resistance by taking the guns away. If so, then we may have something to worry about. With regards to the banter between Kym and Lynn, there really is no need for it. If you both enjoy the argument, then go ahead and argue, but please make sure that you let each other know that there are no hard feelings. Lynn, I think you made it very clear in recent posts that you aren't enjoying it too much *laugh*. Back when I was a man, (hehe), I had many conversations with both Kym and Leisel on sexism, and was rewarded with responses very similar to the ones you are receiving from Kym. I took them in stride for everyone has their own ways of expressing their opinions. Some people have expressed themselves in a "debate format". In other words, they provided contradictory information in exchange for more information. Others don't provide much information, preferring to ask questions in order to further understand their "opponent's" position before taking a position themselves. There are other forms, some just as effective in approaching a conclusion and some not. But the two I described seem to be most efficient, despite the drawbacks of each one. With regards to the former, two people could argue on and on about something they both "essentially" agree with and the exchange of information often leads away from the original argument. The latter has a drawback as well, which can often be worse than the former. When a person only asks questions, they are looked at as if they shouldn't be arguing about it, because the opponent gets the feeling that the inquirer doesn't know what (s)he is talking about. Also, the opponent often feels that they are being attacked rather than questioned. This sometimes leads to aggression between the two parties, and finger-pointing insues. This is very "Ick", IMHO (to use Kym's term). However, if no one gets insulted, which is usually the case as long as the inquirer is understood, the inquirer will eventually have enough knowledge of her/his opponents stance to make their own. Both Kym and Liesel used the above format with me, and I tried my best to state my views. Unfortunately, I had to leave the list for a while, and the thread never had the chance to conclude. And now that my views have changed, somewhat, on the subject, there really hasn't been much of a need to bring it up again. There is another drawback to the questioning format. Because Kym and Liesel's replies had been so blunt when they stated their contradiction, I felt as though they just had an "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude, and that they didn't feel as if they had to explain themselves. When I started looking at other threads which they were involved in, I noticed that eventually they DID give a farily detailed description of their views, and provided some of the best arguments, IMHO, I've seen on the list. One last thing, and I apologize for this post being so long. All of us have our moments when our posts give the impression that we live in our own little world. The limits of written correspondance are to blame for that. Sarcasm is hard to detect. Not everyone can remember to add the ":)" at the end of a joke all the time. Even the most open-minded person in the world will be looked upon as a pompous ass if their written expression isn't perfect. If we keep these limits in mind, I think that we will find a lot less aggression on the list. With love, Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:03:43 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Weapons Europe's problems! Message-ID: <0m8LSLAvPzpzEwpu@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33A682DA.6969@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >> What does that have to do with Switzerland? > > The message to which your message was answering. > > Bart Lidofsky (keep up with the threads, man!) I still don't see the connection (be more polite, man!) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 02:23:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Regarding Estrella's plea for peace Message-ID: In message <199706172227.QAA02947@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Kumbaya (ick!) > > >Kym .. as the actress said to the bishop ... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:35:06 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Sundry Message-ID: <19970617.223407.9919.2.trr@juno.com> On Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:36:14 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >Since the beginning of time, people have mastered the art of >masturbation without any formal 'hands-on' instruction. I fail to >understand why CWL thought his "teaching" was necessary. How do >you teach someone to touch themselves - well - correctly? Maybe the teaching was not just physical. Maybe he was teaching something about how occult laws relate to masturbation. >It doesn't make any sense. Neither motive - "instruct or personal >gratification - can be justified. I don't see why the motive to instruct cannot be justified. One of his pupils was who he thought was to be the World Teacher, and maybe he wanted to be careful and thorough in his training. Who knows? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 23:27:33 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Question Message-ID: <33A78DE4.6B9D@withoutwalls.com> So, is there or is there not an advocated theosophical way to masturbate? Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:34:12 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Question Message-ID: <33A78164.15FF@micron.net> Mark asked: > So, is there or is there not an advocated theosophical way to > masturbate? Oh, man, I hope not. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:19:24 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Militias 3rd letter Message-ID: I think that the letter provided below has a pretty good legal and ethical description of what a militia should be. If a militia is what it is supposed to be, it should have the same characteristics that are described below. I hope this answers a few questions regarding what a militia is "supposed" to be and what it is "supposed" to do. --- Jaqi. "'As often as the question comes forward, the public attention will be roused and attracted to the subject, by the party in opposition; and if the majority should be really disposed to exceed proper limits, the community will be warned of the danger, and have an oppurtunity of guarding against it. Independant of the parties in the National Legislature itself, as often as the period of discussion arrived, the State legislatures, who will always be not only vigilant, but suspicious and jealous guardians of the rights of the citizens against encroachments from the federal government, will constantly have their attention awake to the conduct of national rulers, and will be ready enough, if any thing improper appears, to sound the alarm to the people, and not only be the voice, but, if necessary, the arm of their discontent... ..It is not easy to conceive a possibility that dangers so formidable can assail the whole Union, as to demand a force considerable enough to place our liberties in the least jeapordy, especially if we take into our view the aid to be derived from the militia, which ought always to be counted upon as a valuable and powerful auxiliary. But in a state of disunion the contrary of this supposition would become not only probable, but almost unavoidable...' ---"The Federalist", by Hamilton. This tells me a few things that I have espoused of on militias and the state which have eroded over time. 1. The powers of the state work to serve the people, not only to legislate our interactions with the federal government, but to also warn the people and the militia of when the federal government is taking too many liberties from the citizens. 2. The militia can have powers over the state, but only when the state takes too many liberties from its citizens. This puts the militia squarely in the field of the state, so the argument that the militia is really meant as the uniformed services is a fallacy. It is truly the citizens' arm. So if militias are not necessarily wrong, what is wrong with the militias we have? The errant problem with the prevailing militias is their lack of directed unity, the good militia does not know what the bad militia is doing. The doctrines of one militia do not even come close to the doctrines of the other. They are formed in the back doors of society and whispered of in fear for if it is a militia, it is dangerous for the community it is in. These beliefs are not necessarily true. If the militia is formed correctly, with the organization of it in a sound manner, the militia can be the protectors of our way of life rather than the monstrosities many have become. In the creation of a protectant auxiliary, rather than an oppressive militia, the controlling factor must be, 1) The Constitution of the United States, and 2) The Constitution of the state in which it resides. If ANY actions of the militia construe this with religion, or arrogant discrimination, it is not working for the community, and the peoples of the United States as a whole, of whom it represents. Being a constitutional militia, it would work in close proximity of the state, its representatives, and known by the people of the community as the helping hand, the protector, and, most of all, the friends, for the militia is made up from those same people. Friends and family of the members themselves. (At this notice, it shall be called by its constitutional name, as an auxiliary) The part the state must play is the recognition that its auxiliary represents the state and needs to be treated as an entity of the state, not necessarily funded by the state, but as an overseer of its actions as a representative of the state. This does not mean that the state has the authority to dis-ban the auxiliary, it means that the state and the auxiliary together need to have the same objective in mind. Particularly, 1) the sovereignty of the state as its own entity, and 2) the common welfare of the residents of the state. The Governor of the state, being the commander-in-chief of the forces for the state, is still the commander-in-chief of the auxiliary in matters concerning foreign threats and terrorism within the state. But only the people themselves may order the resignation of the Commander of the auxiliary pending hearings of resignation. If the commander of the auxiliary has credible evidence and is in suspicion of the Governor of treasonable offenses, he or she will seek audience with the leutenant Governor and the legislature on these matters. If found to be true, the commander of the auxiliary will order the federal marshal of the state in question to arrest the Governor in the name of the people. At no time will the commander of the auxiliary give a writ of declaration of war unless the state legislatures resign the sovereignty of the state to any foreign or federal jurisdiction. If it is suspected that the state legislators are working to relenquish sovereignty, then a writ of question and dissatisfaction will be placed with the legislature and the judicial authorities of the state for adjudication of the constitutionality of the suspect articles. The auxiliary must work closely with the people and maintain a positive impression on their welfare in order that the people will realize that the auxiliary is there for their benefit and a protector of their livelihood. If, in the event that any auxiliary member has commited or conspired to commit terrorism or treason, that member will be stripped of all rank and priviledges, and set before the state in judicial arrest until tried. If convicted, they will be banned from the auxiliary. If innocent, they will be fully reinstated to their previous rank and priviledges." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:45:36 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Weapons Europe's problems! Message-ID: <33A7CA5F.51F5@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <33A682DA.6969@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >> What does that have to do with Switzerland? > > > > The message to which your message was answering. > > > > Bart Lidofsky (keep up with the threads, man!) > > I still don't see the connection (be more polite, man!) The original thread had to do with whether a body of people being armed prevented Germany from invading. The Swiss and the Americans were both almost universally armed at the time (in large portions of the United States, this is still true; for example, did you know that, although the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas had an arsenal of weapons, they still had fewer weapons per person than the average Texan? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:46:46 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Question Message-ID: <33A7CAA6.6049@sprynet.com> Mark Kusek wrote: > > So, is there or is there not an advocated theosophical way to > masturbate? In such a way that benefits humanity the most, of course. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 07:53:35 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: On the subject of militias (One has to proceed with care!!) Message-ID: <33A7CC3F.6C45@sprynet.com> Patrick Alessandra Jr. wrote: > > Thank you for your thorough response... > > Most militia's are totally dedicated to the protection of freedom > for all human beings...the influence of gov't agents on such is well > known and understood. > > Please consider that the word "militia" as used in the U.S. > Constitution's 2nd amendment means a citizenry which is able to > appropriately defend itself and is regulated by the local State. Consider that the word, "regulated", in 1789 had to do with setting of standards, and not control. In New York, there is a group called the "Guardian Angels", which, although they do not carry firearms, pretty much fit the defintion of a "militia". While not everybody agrees with them, they do generally good work, and attempt to cooperate with the state whenever possible. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:20:25 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Militias & Year 2000 Message-ID: <33A7E07E.70DA@earthlink.net> As int'l finance will end in year 2000 and most main computers will go hawire the issue has come up on about the military computers (in missles, ships, etc.). The military brass is apparently the only gov't branch that is being honest is sayng that there is no fix and we need to reset with more conventional systems. Our hitech military systems will be undependable and so there is serious concern that any nation with less hitech systems could mount a landing in Florida unopposed (no joke). In such a case the wisdom of the framers of the U.S. Bill of Rights will be made clear....it will be citizen's militia's called to provide defense. ( ...the word "militia" as used in the 2nd amendment means a citizenry which is able to appropriately defend itself, regulated by the local State ). Happy days, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:21:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Karma and stuff (2) Message-ID: <970618132037_1276849951@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-17 10:39:13 EDT, Alan asked me : > Two questions: > > 1. What *is* your interpretation of the operation of the law of karma? > Mine is partly indicated by my use of lower-case here ... :-) Ooooh, I wrote quite a tome in response to Tom about that. I'm trying to think about how to respond without repeating myself extensively. But, before I begin... Am I correct in interpreting your lowercase use as an indication of it being an impersonal law, all-pervasive law, such as that of gravity? ;-D (I agree with that concept.) Basically, I view it as the law of cause and effect. I do look at the operation of karma much as I do as that of the law of gravity. In fact, it may even be useful to think of it as a field, similar to a gravitational field. Whatever is within that field will be affected by that field. This concept eliminates the potential "messiness" of "accounting-type" theories of karma which imply an Intelligence or the law as the embodiment of some entity. (It could be the embodiment of such, but that's an unnecessary speculation at this point, IMHO.) Like gravity, it acts upon everything within the extent of the field, so there's no need for "cosmic books" in which every deed is recorded for future reference. I think the ideas of accountings or "cosmic books" (that seem to enter many discussions of karma) stem from the idea that the effects of a cause may not show up for several incarnations and that they would thus have to be recorded *somewhere*. ;-D Well, yes, the effect of the action is indeed imprinted somewhere and, to me, the likely place would be in the Causal Body or whatever concept one uses for what initiates an incarnation. However, this starts to get a little messy because it divorces the concepts of "cause" and "effects" from each other. I don't think they truly are when viewed from causal realms. Cause and effect are artifacts of temporal relationships which in themselves are mere artifacts of linear states of consciousness. So, karma, as cause and effect, is one of those dualities that exist as dualities only in the lower worlds and is only a duality where the concept of time is functional. In the causal realms, karma exists as a unitary force that is intricately bound up somehow (I'm really straining my mind here ;-D) with the inexorable force of that massive "indrawing" of "cosmic breath" that we associate with evolution. (Ahhhh geeeesh, my head!!! Alan, look at what you made me do!!!) At any rate, its manifestation would necessarily be different when viewed from causal realms, IMHO. Let me leave that alone because that's the kind of thing that'll obsess me all day and I won't get any work done today either. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:24:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Karma and regulation (was Regulation) Message-ID: <970618132032_-959417697@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-17 09:14:00 EDT, Tom wrote: (quoting me) > >When I use the term "karma" here, by the way, I'm not referring to it > >as "good" nor "bad" karma (a terminology that I have problems with > >anyway). > then responded: > If karma cannot be seen as good or bad, then it is irrelevant. Only to > the extent that karma serves as a motivating force in either pleasurably > reassuring one that what one did was good or as a disciplining force in > painfully teaching one that what one did was bad, is it relevant. What > good would it do to understand karma if it did not change behavior? Hi Tom, You made an excellent point and I should clarify what I said. The Law of Karma, in itself, is neither good nor bad in my opinion. It just exists, as does the Law of Gravity, and operates just as impersonally and inexorably. In fact, I tend to look at it as the Law of Cause and Effect. This, however, does not make it any less relevant than the operation of the Law of Gravity--a law that we don't usually attribute "good" or "bad" qualities to. Both are quite relevant, regardless of how we view their effects. Just as we need to overcome the Law of Gravity to escape Earth on space missions, we need to overcome the Law of Karma to escape the three worlds (reincarnating in them). I know that I'm horribly oversimplifying my ideas on this, but I'm trying to avoid writing a tome. (There are many other issues, such as serving humanity vs. personal development, which I see as inseparable, etc. but will leave that for other times.) On the levels of the personality, we see its operation as good or bad and respond accordingly. I agree that these responses to the "effect" side of the Law of Cause and Effect move us forward on the evolutionary path. However, that works only up to a point on the Path because these responses, being responses of the lower mind and emotions, are only of limited importance when viewed from causal levels, IMHO. The pain-pleasure response could take us only so far if that was the only extent of karmic activity because it wouldn't be available for interpreting the effects of actions (causes) performed in earlier incarnations. Without a memory of prior incarnations, this would be meaningless if the only relevance of the Law of Karma was the teaching of lessons perceivable by the lower mind and emotions. So, I believe that karma also has a direct effect on the vehicles (I know, Alan, I know... ;-D) in terms of their level of vibration which is even more important in the evolutionary process. But this is independent of how the personality perceives a particular karmic effect. My views on karma (it's "goodness" or "badness") are also partially influenced by concepts I've encountered in studying Karma Yoga. But I'm trying to keep this post from getting even longer. From the karma yoga viewpoint, ultimately, all karma is the same in that all of it must be transcended if one is to be free of the need to reincarnate (destruction of the Causal Body). Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:39:57 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: Well....i believe not exactly.... Message-ID: <33A81D6D.3F73@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > > You sent a long post, Lynn, so I shall try and respond to it in parts, > > as here. I don't know how many of the German people under the Nazis > > were armed, but my guess is not all of them by any means. The fact that > > is often forgotten in general discussions re Nazis was that the Nazi > > party in pre-WWII Germany was fairly and democratically elected. No, they were not elected democratically.read more history,i beg you. > > Oh, I agree with you all the way on this. It's been quite a few years since I > read the early chapters of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", but the > democratic election of the Nazi party does coincide with my sieve-like > memory. They did some nasty things like the Reichstag fire, etc. in their > rise to and consolidation of power, but they were indeed elected. > > Did you know why they said the Nazis were elected "democratically" is because the Nazis, allied to the canciller (ruler) of that era, act as a group of force, and killed ALL THE COMMUNISTS (if not, they jailed or threatened them, and all the thinking pepole of the era) that's why wasn't any oposition to them at all. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 16:54:02 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Advanced technique Message-ID: <199706182054.QAA27500@leo.vsla.edu> In answer to your question, Mark, yes. CWL's inner teaching is given in The Elder Brother. It involves all-male groups who somehow send their energies to the Logos at the moment of maximum, er, energy. CJs, if you catch my drift. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:45:45 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D. Ma" Subject: About those "militias" Message-ID: <33A85709.1926@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Thanks, Patrick: You wrote: > Most militia's are totally dedicated to the protection of freedom > for all human beings...the influence of gov't agents on such is well > known and understood. > > Please consider that the word "militia" as used in the U.S. > Constitution's 2nd amendment means a citizenry which is able to > appropriately defend itself and is regulated by the local State And Jaqi wrote: > Just as the swastika was, at > one time, a representation of a good thing, the term "militia" was equally > attributed to a group of citizens who worked together toward good ends. > Patrick is correct. The militia referred to in the 2nd Amend. is an > organization of sorts with the intent to protect their communities, So then the "good militia" is sort of some cowboys defending their ranch, their field Am i right? Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:12:45 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: About those "militias" Message-ID: <33A8412A.64FA@earthlink.net> It is wonderful to feel understood...peace to all :)..... > Thanks, Patrick: > You wrote: > > > Most militia's are totally dedicated to the protection of freedom > > for all human beings...the influence of gov't agents on such is well > > known and understood. > > > > Please consider that the word "militia" as used in the U.S. > > Constitution's 2nd amendment means a citizenry which is able to > > appropriately defend itself and is regulated by the local State > > And Jaqi wrote: > > > Just as the swastika was, at > > one time, a representation of a good thing, the term "militia" was equally > > attributed to a group of citizens who worked together toward good ends. > > Patrick is correct. The militia referred to in the 2nd Amend. is an > > organization of sorts with the intent to protect their communities, > > So then the "good militia" is sort of some cowboys defending their > ranch, their field Am i right? > Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:26:11 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Karma and stuff (4 - end) Message-ID: In message <970617170718_1418532438@emout13.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >Just a sort of weird aside... This happened to come up right as I am in the >middle of indexing a chapter discussing evolution in an anthropology text >book. Biologists and anthropologists do not see evolution as being >goal-directed as laypeople often do with one species being "superior" or more >"evolved" than another. Your remark about different, but not necessarily more >advanced, humanities has an interesting correspondence to that. ;-D I'm not surprised. When I started out we were still calling our subject(s) Occult *Science.* Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:38:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Karma and stuff (3) Message-ID: In message <970617170721_-1463090858@emout16.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >Complicated indeed. :-) But, I've been interested in Kabala for various >reasons for quite a few years and really should get around to looking into it >further. I'm sure I'll find some good stuff on the Web, at least as a >starting point. Start with my website below! My entire book is up there now. >> >> Burble burble ... >> >ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D Indeed!!!!! (ROFL, Estrella, is Rolling On The >Floor Laughing) "A sense of humor is indispensible in the work." - Bain, 1956 to date. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:36:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Karma and stuff (3) Message-ID: In message <970617170721_-1463090858@emout16.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >This is fascinating!! This can indeed cast everything about the operation of >the Law of Karma into a different light altogether. So, according to what you >said above, am I correct in understanding that the multifaceted "soul" is >cast off so to speak at the end of an incarnation and a new one created for a >succeding incarnation? Oooops, am I even correct in assuming that the >Kabalist viewpoint includes reincarnation? You would be correct is understanding that such a multifaceted "soul" is cast off ("dies") at the end of an incarnation, assuming the Kabalist viewpoint includes reincarnation. For most Kabalists this is the case, though I have reservations about the manner and/or inevitability of it. I also suspect that if an incarnating monad, on outcarnating, chooses to retain some of its earthtime "soul" attributes and/or memories, then so be it. It may also choose not to reincarnate as part of the natural order of things as a matter of regular choice, and not according to some grand ~esoteric~ "plan." Ignatius of Loyala taught that there are three powers of the soul: the Memory, the Understanding, and the Will. Of these, only Memory is true Being. To re-member is to connect the parts back together. This can't be done if we are not, as Ouspensky would have put it, "awake." I find that I cannot accept neat and simplistic explanations for the mysteries of Creation and being, which, in essence, the basic big 'T' theosophical teachings are, once we get behind the jargon. Sincerely, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:09:06 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: The beat goes on Message-ID: <33A8DB0F.B04@withoutwalls.com> >Since the beginning of time, people have mastered the art of >masturbation without any formal 'hands-on' instruction. I fail to >understand why CWL thought his "teaching" was necessary. How do >you teach someone to touch themselves - well - correctly? Maybe the teaching was not just physical. Maybe he was teaching something about how occult laws relate to masturbation. >It doesn't make any sense. Neither motive - "instruct or personal >gratification - can be justified. I don't see why the motive to instruct cannot be justified. One of his pupils was who he thought was to be the World Teacher, and maybe he wanted to be careful and thorough in his training. Who knows? >>Mark >> So, is there or is there not an advocated theosophical way to >> masturbate? (slyly) > Kym: > Oh, man, I hope not. . . > Bart: > In such a way that benefits humanity the most, of course. Lets just be sure, people, when discussing this, that we make sure to use gender inclusive language, so as not to offend any body. [There is Ancient Wisdom in India that suggests "God" as the "One" created the cosmos as an act of masturbatory fantasy. (And you wonder why they call samadhi, "Bliss?")] Doss, Might it not be time for Krishnamurti's famous "Masturbation is a Pathless land" speech? "Join the holy orgy, Kama Sutra everyone!" - Hair >:)> -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:11:18 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: CWL Message-ID: <19970618.231010.13927.4.trr@juno.com> While at the library of the Seattle lodge today, I did some reading on the Leadbeater scandal. Contrary to what I had believed, this had nothing to do with Krishnamurti, but primarily with 2 other teenage boys. The following are quotes from what I read today, interspersed with some comments of mine: > From: "100 YEARS OF THEOSOPHY," pages 37 to 43 "The full sequence of events is reviewed by Mrs. Josephine Ransom, in her "Short History of the Theosophical Society,"" Does anyone have this book? "Mrs. Besant, while still not supporting Leadbeater in the teaching he had given a number of young boys, was outspoken in defense of the concept that the Society could not impose a moral code binding on all and each of its members." [By the end of 1908,] "Mrs. Besant had submitted a letter to the membership reviewing the situation, and on majority vote of the General Council, Leadbeater was reinstated to membership." >From "LIVES IN THE SHADOW WITH J. KRISHNAMURTI" Page 24: "In the four years before Krishna’s arrival at Adyar, Leadbeater had won high acclaim for his American lecture tour, only to fall from grace due to a charge of moral misconduct. This put a strain on Leadbeater’s friendship with Mrs. Besant and forced his resignation, under pressure, from the society. Today it seems likely that he was a victim of his times, for he believed the pressure of sexuality on young boys and girls was increased by ignoring the subject and refusing to talk about it. He objected to the orthodox view that thoughts do not matter as long as they do not become overt, and he wrote explicitly about the ameliorating effects of masturbation in ridding the mind of such thoughts. He felt that not to do so could lead to more serious consequences, quoting St. Paul that it is best to remain celibate but it is better to marry than to burn. Leadbeater concluded in his best style that the ‘average doctor cannot see the horrible astral effects of perpetual desire.’" "When Mrs. Besant became President of the Theosophical Society in 1907, she gradually warmed to Leadbeater again. She even took up cudgels in his defence, stating that he had been wronged by her and the society." Page 50: [At the Theosophical Convention at Sydney in 1921 or 1922,] "All the previous immorality charges were rehashed. All, according to Krishna, were lies. He did not waver in his defence. With Nitya’s support, Krishna upheld absolutely Leadbeater’s purity, although he would make no such commitment to his clairvoyance. Some years before, Mrs. Besant’s doubts about Leadbeater had been just the reverse." > From: "THE LAST FOUR LIVES OF ANNIE BESANT" Page 93: "Was C. W. Leadbeater a "sex pervert," as his many enemies both within and without the Theosophical Society regarded him, or a misunderstood, maligned, pure-hearted martyr, as his many friends - chiefly within the Society - called him? There is a mass of contradictory testimony on both sides, but it is fairly safe to say that if the situation had arisen three or four decades later than it did, after the liberation of conceptions of sexual practices and sexual morality had occurred, there would have been far fewer cries of shocked outrage and probably little more than a few raised eyebrows. At least it must be admitted even by Leadbeater’s enemies that he stuck doggedly and apparently sincerely to his theories and principles, and that he never admitted any shame or even embarrassment over his conduct." Page 95: "The distraught Annie Besant, trapped between two loyalties, decided in favour of the older and stronger. On 26 February 1906, she answered Mrs. Dennis [who was accusing Leadbeater] from Shanti Kunja, accepting Leadbeater’s explanation, and pointing out how unfair it was to condemn a man unheard, on the accusations of two confused boys." Page 95: "Annie, now committed to the defence of her friend, maintained that the whole thing was a malicious misinterpretation..." Page 96: "She knew through her and his mutual meetings with Master K. H. that her colleague could do nothing 'evil-minded.'" The impression I am left with after reading all of this, some of which is contradictory, is that Mrs. Besant basically trusted and supported Leadbeater in what he did with the boys, but had some misgivings about the effects it would have on his reputation and, by association, her reputation and that of the society. I agree. What he did may have lacked tact, but it was not child abuse. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:34:34 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: CWL Message-ID: <33A8E10A.3781@micron.net> Tom offered quotes: > Page 95: "The distraught Annie Besant, trapped between two loyalties, > decided in favour of the older and stronger. On 26 February 1906, she > answered Mrs. Dennis [who was accusing Leadbeater] from Shanti Kunja, > accepting Leadbeater’s explanation, and pointing out how unfair it was to > condemn a man unheard, on the accusations of two confused boys." Now this is a cryptic paragraph! Annie ". . .decided in favour of the older and stronger." Older and stronger? That's an interesting, and haunting, choice of words. And doesn't that preference continue to this day? Annie referred to the children as "two confused boys." Two confused boys! - most children who have been abused are confused. And doubting the mental capacity of a victim of sexual abuse is a common, though faulty, reaction. Tom concluded: > What he did may have > lacked tact, but it was not child abuse. Really? What you consider "lacked tact" may, to a child, seem like abuse. Some boys are traumatized by having to be seen naked in a high school gym locker - now, let's have some of these same boys sitting in a circle with their peers, not only exposed, but possibly having to "perform" - do you think all boys would come out unscathed? Woe to those who with a "puny penis" or something else schoolmates could forever mock you with. CWL has just handed us a whopping amount of group karma to work off. And I am disappointed with Annie - it does sound from your quotes that she chose to preserve the reputation of the Theosophical Society rather than taking the high road. She may have sacrificed two (or more) children to preserve the Society. I am sick at heart by what I have deduced from the quotes. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 04:25:44 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: CWL Message-ID: <19970619.012415.12239.2.trr@juno.com> On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 03:31:44 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >Tom offered quotes: > >> Page 95: "The distraught Annie Besant, trapped between two >>loyalties, decided in favour of the older and stronger. On 26 February >>1906, she answered Mrs. Dennis [who was accusing Leadbeater] from >>Shanti Kunja, accepting Leadbeater’s explanation, and pointing out >>how unfair it was to condemn a man unheard, on the accusations of >>two confused boys." >Now this is a cryptic paragraph! Annie ". . .decided in favour of the >older and stronger." Older and stronger? That's an interesting, and >haunting, choice of words. How is preferring an older and stronger loyalty haunting? >And doesn't that preference continue to this day? Huh? >Annie referred to the children as "two confused boys." Two confused >boys! - most children who have been abused are confused. What does that have to do with CWL? Or are you reasoning that, since children who have been abused are confused, therefore children who are confused have been abused? >And doubting the mental capacity of a victim of sexual abuse is a >common, though faulty, reaction. What does that have to do with CWL? >Tom concluded: > >> What he did may have >> lacked tact, but it was not child abuse. > >Really? What you consider "lacked tact" may, to a child, seem like >abuse. Anything _may_ seem like abuse to a child. Getting spanked may seem like abuse to a child. >Some boys are traumatized by having to be seen naked in a high >school gym locker - now, let's have some of these same boys sitting in >a circle with their peers, not only exposed, but possibly having to >"perform" - do you think all boys would come out unscathed? Woe to >those who with a "puny penis" or something else schoolmates could >forever mock you with. What justification do you have to support your implication that CWL was not sensitive to these possibilities with the boys who were in his care? >CWL has just handed us a whopping amount of group karma to work off. How? >And I am disappointed with Annie - it does sound from your quotes that >she chose to preserve the reputation of the Theosophical Society >rather than taking the high road. She may have sacrificed two (or more) >children to preserve the Society. How did she do that? >I am sick at heart by what I have deduced from the quotes. You didn't need the quotes to deduce what you deduced. To you, an accusation is proof enough. You start with the assumption that CWL is guilty of child abuse, and proceed from there. You do the same thing with sexism and anti-Semitism, helping to destroy the meaning of the words. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:59:12 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: CWL Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970619125912.00cc9da4@mail.eden.com> At 02:12 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >While at the library of the Seattle lodge today, I did some reading on >the Leadbeater scandal. Contrary to what I had believed, this had >nothing to do with Krishnamurti, but primarily with 2 other teenage boys. > The following are quotes from what I read today, interspersed with some >comments of mine: > >From: "100 YEARS OF THEOSOPHY," pages 37 to 43 > >"The full sequence of events is reviewed by Mrs. Josephine Ransom, in her >"Short History of the Theosophical Society,"" > >Does anyone have this book? > > >"Mrs. Besant, while still not supporting Leadbeater in the teaching he >had given a number of young boys, was outspoken in defense of the concept >that the Society could not impose a moral code binding on all and each of >its members." > >[By the end of 1908,] "Mrs. Besant had submitted a letter to the >membership reviewing the situation, and on majority vote of the General >Council, Leadbeater was reinstated to membership." > >>From "LIVES IN THE SHADOW WITH J. KRISHNAMURTI" > >Page 24: "In the four years before Krishna's arrival at Adyar, Leadbeater >had won high acclaim for his American lecture tour, only to fall from >grace due to a charge of moral misconduct. This put a strain on >Leadbeater's friendship with Mrs. Besant and forced his resignation, >under pressure, from the society. Today it seems likely that he was a >victim of his times, for he believed the pressure of sexuality on young >boys and girls was increased by ignoring the subject and refusing to talk >about it. He objected to the orthodox view that thoughts do not matter >as long as they do not become overt, and he wrote explicitly about the >ameliorating effects of masturbation in ridding the mind of such >thoughts. He felt that not to do so could lead to more serious >consequences, quoting St. Paul that it is best to remain celibate but it >is better to marry than to burn. Leadbeater concluded in his best style >that the 'average doctor cannot see the horrible astral effects of >perpetual desire.'" > >"When Mrs. Besant became President of the Theosophical Society in 1907, >she gradually warmed to Leadbeater again. She even took up cudgels in >his defence, stating that he had been wronged by her and the society." > >Page 50: [At the Theosophical Convention at Sydney in 1921 or 1922,] "All >the previous immorality charges were rehashed. All, according to >Krishna, were lies. He did not waver in his defence. With Nitya's >support, Krishna upheld absolutely Leadbeater's purity, although he would >make no such commitment to his clairvoyance. Some years before, Mrs. >Besant's doubts about Leadbeater had been just the reverse." > >From: "THE LAST FOUR LIVES OF ANNIE BESANT" > >Page 93: "Was C. W. Leadbeater a "sex pervert," as his many enemies both >within and without the Theosophical Society regarded him, or a >misunderstood, maligned, pure-hearted martyr, as his many friends - >chiefly within the Society - called him? There is a mass of >contradictory testimony on both sides, but it is fairly safe to say that >if the situation had arisen three or four decades later than it did, >after the liberation of conceptions of sexual practices and sexual >morality had occurred, there would have been far fewer cries of shocked >outrage and probably little more than a few raised eyebrows. At least it >must be admitted even by Leadbeater's enemies that he stuck doggedly and >apparently sincerely to his theories and principles, and that he never >admitted any shame or even embarrassment over his conduct." > >Page 95: "The distraught Annie Besant, trapped between two loyalties, >decided in favour of the older and stronger. On 26 February 1906, she >answered Mrs. Dennis [who was accusing Leadbeater] from Shanti Kunja, >accepting Leadbeater's explanation, and pointing out how unfair it was to >condemn a man unheard, on the accusations of two confused boys." > >Page 95: "Annie, now committed to the defence of her friend, maintained >that the whole thing was a malicious misinterpretation..." > >Page 96: "She knew through her and his mutual meetings with Master K. H. >that her colleague could do nothing 'evil-minded.'" > >The impression I am left with after reading all of this, some of which is >contradictory, is that Mrs. Besant basically trusted and supported >Leadbeater in what he did with the boys, but had some misgivings about >the effects it would have on his reputation and, by association, her >reputation and that of the society. I agree. What he did may have >lacked tact, but it was not child abuse. > thanks for the well researched post. As I have already mentioned earlier, Ernest Wood who was for five years his private secretary, has mentioned (in his book - Is this Theosophy?) that he never saw anything on this issue during his association with CWL. Wood would have certained made some comments if he had seen anything. We need to keep this additional info in perspective. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:12:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Question Message-ID: <970619111047_1343994900@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-18 03:16:54 EDT, Mark asked: > So, is there or is there not an advocated theosophical way to > masturbate? It depends on whether the vibration can be brought up to spiritual levels. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:13:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Olive branch to Kym...and thanks, Jaqi!!! Message-ID: <970619111045_489369876@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-17 23:22:31 EDT, Jaqi wrote: > > When I first started going through the digests yesterday, I had to laugh a > little due to the large amount of sarcasm and finger-pointing, especially > with regards to the thread belonging largely to Lynn and Kym. However, as > I read on, the thread seemed to turn into some kind of word-war.(Word War > I?) Ouch. Bad pun. My spleen twitched a little. Jaqi, You are so right, Jaqi. It did turn into a Word War and I totally accept responsibility for my role in it. Please accept my apologies for causing your spleen to twitch as a result of my having vented mine. (Ouch! That's just as bad.) Despite the weak joke, I do mean this apology very seriously to you, to Kym, and to the rest of the list. You are the personification of the Blessed be the Peacemaker Beatitude!!!! Thank you! Kym, I ask your forgiveness if my remarks hurt you in any way. I know that I became very shrill and overly-vociferous in defending my point of view. Please accept this olive branch and let's agree to disagree. This is not at all easy. But, if I learned anything from the heart attack I had a few months ago, it is that I could leave this incarnation at any time. (Well, I've always known that, but there's nothing like a heart attack to really drive the point home.) I definitely don't want to do that (not that I'm actually expecting to at any time soon ) without having made amends with anyone I may have hurt or without having said whatever things I *should* have said to them. Peace, Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:56:23 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Year 2000 [Fwd: Re: Strategic Investment] Message-ID: <33A93A5C.114D@earthlink.net> > I saw the same article, along with the post here about Silver Bullet > Systems. Everything I've read up until now states that there is no > "Silver Bullet" for this problem. Are these legitimate solutions and can > we relax a little bit about this problem? Hmmm..there is no "silver bullett"...in the USA a lot of work is going on...the most uncertain factors have to do with military systems around the world and info-systems in third world nations (Russia, etc.).. > I'm quite curious about this if > anyone knows some specifics as I'm convinced that, unchecked, we're facing > a huge problem with Y2K. It's big...l.there is an article at http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchives.pl?97-2000a.dat.htm Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/maininfo.html *** (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:34:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Advanced technique Message-ID: <970619133049_1543628977@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-19 03:08:48 EDT, you write: > >In answer to your question, Mark, yes. CWL's inner teaching is >given in The Elder Brother. It involves all-male groups who >somehow send their energies to the Logos at the moment of >maximum, er, energy. CJs, if you catch my drift. > > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! Leadbeaterian Tantra! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:40:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Your jokes are GREAT!! Message-ID: <970619133950_489375441@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-19 10:44:32 EDT, you write: >We aim to please, don't we, Chucky babe? And on occasion it seems we do. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 97 15:08:24 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Well-researched? NOT!! Message-ID: <199706191908.PAA07127@leo.vsla.edu> Doss lauds Tom's post on CWL. I must point out that it uses sources that are secondary, that do not access the relevant primary sources, and that are either accidentally or willfully blind to the facts. There is only one well-researched secondary source on this issue, Tillett's book. And if you think he's biased and untrustworthy, he still leads you right to the primary sources that show what really happened. Whenever JHE has posted here the relevant information he has gotten attacked for it. Come on people, stop being ostriches! The TS was a haven for full scale sexual abuse of the worst kind, for years and years, due to the willful blindness of people like... Well, people who refuse to even look at the evidence that would upset their belief system. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:48:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Well....i believe not exactly.... Message-ID: <970619154535_471456141@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-19 14:39:59 EDT, Estrella wrote: > Did you know why they said the Nazis were elected "democratically" is > because the Nazis, allied to the canciller (ruler) of that era, act as a > group of force, and killed ALL THE COMMUNISTS (if not, they jailed or > threatened them, and all the thinking pepole of the era) that's why > wasn't any oposition to them at all. > Estrella Hmmm. I *better* make time to reread those early chapters in the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". Thanks for the info, Estrella! Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:27:03 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Child abuse Message-ID: <33A99617.2922@micron.net> Dear Tom, Your rabid posts always fill me with such glee. Well, I have something even further to add here - which, I am sure, will royally bunch your panties. You wrote: > Anything _may_ seem like abuse to a child. Getting spanked may seem like > abuse to a child. The act of striking a child, animal, or adult is abuse. Therefore, spanking children is abuse. Violence, even in the name of discipline, is unacceptable. A child being hit by an adult - and especially by one who claims to love them - is a bewildered and frightened child. And we wonder why our children are turning on us. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:09:27 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Well-researched? NOT!! Message-ID: <19970619.140823.2215.0.trr@juno.com> On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:09:00 -0400 (EDT) "K. Paul Johnson" writes: >There is only one well-researched >secondary source on this issue, Tillett's book. And if you >think he's biased and untrustworthy, he still leads you right >to the primary sources that show what really happened. What is the name of Tillett's book? Might it be in either Wheaton's or Seattle's library? >Whenever JHE has posted here the relevant information he has >gotten attacked for it. Assuming he doesn't want to do that again, can you supply approximate dates for when he did, and a head start in knowing how to access old articles? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:22:23 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Child abuse Message-ID: <19970619.142048.2215.2.trr@juno.com> On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:25:20 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >The act of striking a child, animal, or adult is abuse. Therefore, >spanking children is abuse. Violence, even in the name of discipline, >is unacceptable. That raises the question of where the line should be drawn. Is any touching of anyone abuse? If not, how hard does it have to be to be a strike? Unless you are defining "strike" as "any way of touching someone that is abuse," some clarification of what striking means is necessary to distinguish it from non-abusive touching. >A child being hit by an adult - and especially by one >who claims to love them - is a bewildered and frightened child. > >And we wonder why our children are turning on us. . . Maybe it's because we've spoiled them rotten. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:44:16 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: A suggestion Message-ID: <33A9C450.1FEC@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hi to all: Alan: I was thinking, you have a great selection of files on your homepage, i was thinking,(i saw the circle cross stone you posted the other day) Why don't you put the photos and files of the mystery crop circles that have appear in your hometown, England? I'm shure lots of us will apretiate that material. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:50:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Bang bang! Message-ID: <2dV7MZAHJIqzEwDT@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33A7CA5F.51F5@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > The original thread had to do with whether a body of people being armed >prevented Germany from invading. The Swiss and the Americans were both >almost universally armed at the time (in large portions of the United >States, this is still true; for example, did you know that, although the >Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas had an arsenal of weapons, they still >had fewer weapons per person than the average Texan? Yes, and although it is fair to suggest that invading the USA would be a *bad* move in such a case, the Swiss could have been overrun in a very short time by sheer force of superior arms in larger quantities than the Swiss would possess in several lifetimes. If the Waco sect had fewer weapons per person than the average Texan, then I shall stay the hell away from Texas! Seriously, much of this is to do with attitude of mind, doesn't it? I was at one time friendly with an Episcopalian priest in Illinois - stayed with him for a few days in Pontiac. Before joining the ministry he had been a Chicago cop for nearly 20 years (I got a free tour of the Chicago PD, including parts the public don't usually get to see). During the whole of that time he only ever drew his gun once, and did not need to use it. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:30:22 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Bang bang! Message-ID: <33A9DD2E.F78@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > Seriously, much of this is to do with attitude of mind, doesn't it? Absolutely. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:30:07 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: CWL -The Cipher Letter Message-ID: Regarding the CWL affair [again!] and the matter of sources. Herewith an original document from the time: ------ CWL04.TXT THE LEADBEATER "CIPHER LETTER" Authentic copy from the original, written by C. W. Leadbeater to one of his pupils about 1906, with explanatory letter from the boy's mother. The cipher letter was typewritten on paper identified by color and watermark as that used by him in other communications, and was received as an enclosure with another letter. The "Cipher Letter" PRIVATE My own darling boy, there is no need for you to write anything in cipher, for no one but I ever sees your letters. But it is better for me to write in cipher about some of the most important matters; can you always read it easily? Can you describe any of the forms in rose-colour which you have seen entering your room? Are they human beings or nature spirits? The throwing of water is unusual in such a case, though I have had it done to me at a spiritualistic seance. Were you actually wet when you awoke, or was it only in sleep that you felt the water? Either is possible, but they would represent different types of phenomena. All these preliminary experiences are interesting, and I wish we were nearer together to talk about them. Turning to other matters, I am glad to hear of the rapid growth, and the strength of the results. Twice a week is permissible, but you will soon discover what brings the best effect. *The meaning of the sign [Circle with dot in center] is osauisu. Spontaneous manifestations are undesirable, and should be discouraged. Eg ou dinat xeuiiou iamq, ia oaaet socceoh nisa iguao. Cou oiu uii iguao, is ia xemm oiu dina xamm. Eiat uiuu iuqqao xiao zio usa utmaaq; tell me fully. Hmue taotuueio et ti qmautuou. Uiiotuoo lettat eusmeoh. (The following paragraph is the boy's translation of the paragraph written in cipher - beginning with the. first *) The meaning of the sign [Circle with dot in center] is urethra. Spontaneous manifestations are undesirable and should be discouraged. If it comes without help, he needs rubbing more often, but not too often or he will not come well. Does that happen when you are asleep? Tell me fully. Glad sensation is so pleasant. Thousand kisses darling. Key to the cipher. Cipher a b c d e f g h i j k l m Translation e a b c d,i e f g h,o i j k l Cipher n o p q r s t u v w x y z Translation m n,u o p q r s a,t u v w x y Letter from the Boy's Mother May - 1906. Dear ........... Your request was duly received asking for a statement from our son as to whether he had approached Mr L. ... for aid, or whether Mr L. ... had approached him, but owing to my feeling that there was no necessary haste, and to some pressing home conditions, it has been delayed until now and I trust the delay has caused no complications. At the present moment I believe it right to place in the hands of the Investigating Committee such evidence as we have pertaining to a sad difficulty. Our only desire is that a full, fair setting forth of all points in the matter be made. We have the deepest appreciation of Mr L'S kindness to the boy and ourselves in many ways, and whatever may come from us, we wish to avoid any semblance of pre-judging. What conclusions I have arrived at are based on the facts at hand. My husband will send some statements later, setting forth his view of the situation as now presented to him. Our son's statement clearly shows that Mr L. ... opened the subject. After having fully discussed the matter with both his father and me, he has given the key to the cipher in which certain information was given to him by Mr L. ... in "private" notes placed in letters. Our son was so disinclined to relate what Mr L. ... had taught him, that for a time we felt we were asking him to disregard his honor. However, we arrived at the firm conviction that Mr L. ... had no moral right to give him instruction and then bind him by word or attitude to secresy. No minor can join the T. S. without the consent of parent or guardian. How much less then has any one, teacher though he be, the right to give a teaching that he knows is not generally accepted, and then cause the boy to keep it away from his parents and further promote the secresy by private notes and the use of a cipher. Mr L. . . . gave to this boy a teaching admittedly dangerous, and, at the same time, prevented the counsel and the guidance of his parents in so critical a matter by impressing the boy strongly with secresy. Mr L. ... either considered the parents unfit counsellors or else he feared their disapproval. In either case it was an assumption of privilege. For no matter which view he held, the parents are Karmically responsible for the child, and such teaching so contrary to their sense of right would have been possibly permissible only after having consulted them and received their consent. Neither the boy's father nor I would have permitted Mr L. ... to so instruct him. We have average intelligence; we have been devoted T. S. members since 1892 and surely would have been glad to co-operate with Mr L. ... in any measure we believed to be a useful factor in the boy's evolution. Therefore, no matter what may be established as Mr L's motive, the fact that he ignored the rights and responsibilities of the parents deserves condemnation. Our son left the slip of paper on the floor, from which the enclosed cipher note is copied. I also found another on the floor some time after finding the above mentioned cipher. That note was written in Mr L's hand and asked our son to keep a record of days when "experiments" were made, but this is now mislaid. It was not of so dangerous a nature as the enclosed; for in this, you will observe, Mr L. ... expresses himself as "glad the sensation is pleasant" showing that he approves of the sensuous part of the practice. This surely was teaching the boy to throw pleasurable consciousness into the practice. Would not that make reactionary thought forms? Mr L. ... knew from my letters to him, that I was earnestly striving to aid the boy in his moral and mental growth, and he directly, or indirectly taught the boy to keep this important phase of growth away from his parents. This was not fostering frankness, to say the least! Mr L. ... says in his letter to Mr F., "The business of discovering and training especially hopeful younger members, and preparing them for Theosophical work has been put in my charge." A man may have credentials which bespeak his ability to teach mathematics or to teach occultism but it is unfair to the intelligence and duty of the parents to be denied knowledge of the method. Again and again we have been told to accept only what mind and conscience approve. Our duty is to give the child the best we know. Where can Mr L. ... find justification in carefully teaching this practice which he knew was so generally condemned, and which he took no pains to put before parents for their acquiescence? A. B. said to me in '97, "Never make the mistake of doing evil that good may come." Now it appears to me that this act is far more evil in its effects than what we call lust, for it warps the nature and annuls any possible good that might result. No matter how great a person has given Mr L. ... this work to do, our duty and right is to pass judgment on the methods, and since, as parents and guardians of youth in the T. S. we disapprove of them, our way is clear, and that is, to denounce such teachings. These statements are not made in the spirit of one who is unwilling to hear all sides, but are the results of pondering on evidence at hand which comes from Mr L. ... and as facts, are irrefutable. It is an inexplicable feature in this case, that the boy was taught this method while away from his home. There was ample opportunity for Mr L. ... to have consulted the boy's father about this when in our city, but, he did not. I have only touched upon the parents' view, which is the fringe of a matter pregnant with other phases. Trusting that the utmost frankness and courage may prevail at all points in this investigation, I am, Sincerely Yours, From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:48:34 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: CWL Message-ID: <1YsrdHAiNdqzEwSh@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <19970618.231010.13927.4.trr@juno.com>, Tom Robertson writes >"The full sequence of events is reviewed by Mrs. Josephine Ransom, in her >"Short History of the Theosophical Society,"" > >Does anyone have this book? I no longer have it (unless it's tucked away somewhere - it's not very long). However, to state that the "full sequence of events is reviewed" may be true, but it *is* a *review* and not a presentation of the historical information in full. There is a fair amount of authentic and original information, mostly transcripts of original documents, on the website below. You will have to wander around the DIRECTORY structure to find it. In particular get CWL.ZIP. In all of the extant accounts of CWL's "trial" (actually it was probably more of an in depth investigation by Olcott) CWL admits to having touched some of the boys. The mmod of the period of Annie Besant's reinstatement of him is reflected in some of the letters of Helen Dennis of the Chicago E.S. at the time (1908) some of which were transcribed from photocopies in my possession and uploaded to the list a while back. They too should be on the website - possibly in the same ZIP file. And of course, according to Tillet (~The Elder Brother~) who researched on CWL's Australian "home ground" the practice of collective male masturbation was presented to, and practised by, a number of youngsters with CWL participating - as a spiritual exercise. Taking heaven by storm? AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:11:31 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Tillet extract Message-ID: >From ~The Elder Brother~ by Gregory Tillet [1982]: Leadbeater later claimed that much of the evidence against him in the transcript of the 1906 hearing had been 'fabricated' or was the result of transcription errors. However, in the custody case over Krishnamurti in Madras in 1913, Leadbeater again admitted that he had taught boys masturbation (the precise meaning of the word 'taught' was never fully explored). He denied touching the boys, but in answer to one question talked about a case in which he had done so. He declared that he gave specific sexual advice to boys on the basis of the thought forms he could see hovering about them, indicating their sexual arousal and emotional disturbance. Claims that he had initiated sexual activities were specifically made by two of his pupils in the USA in relation to the 1906 'troubles', when it was claimed that he had indulged in mutual masturbation, alleging that this would promote physical vigour and have occult results as well. Hubert van Hook also alleged, in later years, that Leadbeater had engaged in sexual relations with him. But other than these three boys, and one in Australia, none of his pupils ever offered any public suggestion of sexual irregularities. Mrs Besant had stated that sex was not permissible for an Initiate, and the pupils all repeated that Leadbeater stressed the importance of purity. There were, however, a few things which might have led the suspicious to wonder. Why did Leadbeater invariably sleep with a young boy in his bed? And why did he invariably have a boy in the bath with him? It has been argued that his weak heart necessitated such companionship for fear he might have some sort of attack whilst alone; but does companionship require mutual nakedness in close proximity? And why did Leadbeater insist on communal bathing for his pupils at The Manor, with all of them in the bathroom, naked, at the same time? He was given an enema every morning by one or other of his pupils, in the presence of the others whilst they bathed. This, said the close associate of Leadbeater's who told of the morning ritual, may have given rise to misinterpretations. One could understand why. Furthermore, there was a strange occult relationship between Leadbeater and some of his pupils, which seemed to have unhealthy implications. In his article 'A modem Socrates', A.J. Hamerster recalled that the pupil-teacher relationship often employed 'spiritual induction' whereby the pupils not only receive something from their teacher, but give 'something from their vital energy whereby the ancient Teacher was enabled to recuperate some of his failing strength'. In his own copy of this article, bound in with his Collected Articles in the Adyar Library, Hamerster has noted, in handwriting: 'Often was this phenomena observed by me in C.W Leadbeater's latter days in Adyar and many times I heard it from the lips of his young disciples how they actually felt their strength being drained from them.' There were those who defended Leadbeater's 'teachings' (popularly assumed in the TS to have been condoning masturbation) on grounds which suggested the teachings involved more than was commonly known. Some suggested the teachings were given occultly in Mrs Besant's The Pedigree of Man. Others argued that it was a necessary means for humanity to return to the hermaphroditic state, and yet others said that it was too esoteric a system for anyone other than a disciple to understand. The O.E. Library Critic even suggested that Leadbeater's book, The Monad, included a reference to some form of 'psychic orgasm'. Eventually evidence was found that Leadbeater had taught a sexual technique, other than masturbation in the sense understood by the 1906 enquiry, to a highly select group of his closest pupils, and that he gave an occult and spiritual basis for this teaching. Details of the teachings were contained within the diaries of one of Leadbeater's closest pupils. Unfortunately access to this material was closed almost immediately it had been given; it does, however, provide a solution to the mystery. That Leadbeater promulgated these teachings was later confided by one of his closest associates, who was reluctant to give the information, feeling that it would be misunderstood. He did not regard Leadbeater's teaching as 'immoral' or improper, but, as Leadbeater claimed, occult. In simple terms, Leadbeater taught that the energy aroused in masturbation can be used as a form of occult power, a great release of energy which can, first, elevate the consciousness of the individual to a state of ecstasy and, second, direct a great rush of psychic force towards the Logos for His use in occult work. Leadbeater declared: 'The closest man can come to a sublime spiritual experience is orgasm.' During masturbation, the mind should gradually be elevated towards the Godhead and, in his words, 'as soon as the seed can be felt in the tube', the consciousness should be so exalted that the great release of physical and psychical energy is directed to the Logos or to an image of Him. This occult knowledge of sex was regarded as too dangerous to give to the average person, or, indeed, to the average pupil of Leadbeater's. It was reserved for the select few, who were sworn to secrecy, and told that they were justified in not telling the truth about this highly occult matter should they be questioned. It was so secret and sacred a matter that a dual standard of morality - that of the ordinary man, and that of the spiritually evolved occultist - applied. The select pupils, on rare occasions, engaged in group ritual masturbation which was intended to send out especially powerful emanations. Once the sexual passions were aroused, Leadbeater taught, they should be properly directed, and not wasted. Such sexual exercises could lead to the development of psychic powers and experiences of 'Nirvana' and the higher worlds. One thus re-reads a passage in his book, Clairvoyance, with a somewhat different understanding: Let a man choose a certain time every day - a time when he can rely upon being quiet and undisturbed, though preferably in the day time rather than at night - and set himself at this time to keep his mind for a few moments entirely free from all earthly thoughts of any kind whatever and, when that is achieved, to direct the whole force of his being towards the highest spiritual ideal that he happens to know. He will find that to gain such perfect control of thought is enormously more difficult than he supposes, but when he attains it it cannot but be in every way most beneficial to him, and as he grows more and more able to elevate and concentrate his thought, he may gradually find that new worlds are opening before his sight. Does this, on its 'inner side', have reference to anything more than meditation in an intellectual sense? >From this sexual teaching of Leadbeater's two interesting themes can be followed. The first is that it fits in with a considerable 'movement' in aesthetic and religious circles at the end of the nineteenth and the beginning of the twentieth century in which a spiritual relationship, with sexual implications, between Teacher and Pupil was exalted to a sacred degree. Timothy d'Arch Smith, in his study of 'Uranian' poets, began by noting: between the eighteen nineties and the nineteen thirties a boy was a very quiet, self-effacing and unobtrusive creature indeed. The Uranians' adoration of such a person was not therefore immediately suspect as it is in modern society where the state is intolerant of any intrusion into her prerogative of wet-nurse or where certain Sunday newspapers are as thoughtlessly swift to condemn such relationships as they are immorally prompt to arouse their young readers' erotic ardour with pictures of near nude females, and it is probable that the Uranians' love of boys gave genuine help and affection where no official organization or counsel existed outside the home or school. The term 'Uranian' was coined, d'Arch Smith notes, by those who advocated 'boy love' in the period from the 1880s to the 1930s, and included such figures as Oscar Wilde, Edward Carpenter, John Addington Symonds, William Johnson Cory and Ralph Nicholas Chubb. Of the last named, it was said he endeavoured 'to raise paederasty to a form of religious devotion'. Amongst the religious figures d'Arch Smith includes Fr. Ignatius of Llanthony, George Reader, Frederick Widdows, Frederick Samuel Willoughby (who consecrated Wedgwood), and Leadbeater. Obviously Wedgwood and some of his associates should also have been included. Many of the Uranians were characterized by a retrospective longing for the days of classical Greece, when the teacher-pupil relationship, including a sexual relationship between an older and a younger man, was held to be the pinnacle of culture. One recalls the irony in Leadbeater's frequent reference to his own last incarnation in ancient Greece, as the pupil of One of Pythagoras' disciples. And one wonders whether Leadbeater felt as d'Arch Smith suggests Ralph Nicholas Chubb did: 'This spiritualizing of paederasty absolves him from the guilt which makes him hate society and turn into a recluse. His is no longer a common human weakness, for he has felt the cleansing fire of divinity.' But his sexual teachings did not only link Leadbeater with an aesthetic and religious 'movement'. they also relate directly to an occult and magical tradition which employed sexual activities In a ritual context. Even more relevant, the magical use of masturbation is not unknown in some traditions of western occultism. The theories of sexual magic can be summarized: (1) Man possesses hidden powers (often identified with the subconscious mind) which give him greater perception, raise him to states of ecstasy, expand his consciousness, stimulate increased physical, emotional and mental powers; (2) These powers lie 'buried' beneath some 'barrier' which conscious control cannot penetrate, but which can be overcome by a variety of techniques, including to some extent drugs and alcohol; (3) This 'barrier' can be penetrated through heightening the physical, emotional and intellectual focus of the body by sexual stimulation', leading to a 'break through' at the point of orgasm, at which energy is released. Techniques employed are heterosexual, homosexual or autosexual. In the case of autosexual techniques, the aim was usually to heighten the consciousness of the magician and focus and stimulate his magical power, culminating in the release of energy at the point of orgasm. The English artist and magician Austin Spare employed a technique of 'magical masturbation' as a means of concentrating, releasing and directing magical energy. Aleister Crowley also employed magical sexual techniques - of every imaginable variety - in his occult work, and in the Ordo Templi Orientis, of which he was a member, 'magical masturbation' was taught as the technique of one of the higher degrees. Precisely how, or indeed if, Leadbeater's teachings related to or derived from any of these traditions is unknown, since the sources of information are now effectively closed. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:55:21 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Your jokes are GREAT!! Message-ID: In message <970619133950_489375441@emout02.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-06-19 10:44:32 EDT, you write: > >>We aim to please, don't we, Chucky babe? > >And on occasion it seems we do. > >Chuck the Heretic Purrrrr Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:54:26 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Question Message-ID: In message <970619111047_1343994900@emout07.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-06-18 03:16:54 EDT, Mark asked: > >> So, is there or is there not an advocated theosophical way to >> masturbate? > >It depends on whether the vibration can be brought up to spiritual levels. >;-D I am told that successful practitioners are apt to cry out, "Oh God!" Must be spiritual. Alan (who also couldn't resist) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:54:30 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Well-researched? NOT!! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970620015430.0070b420@mail.eden.com> At 03:09 PM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >Doss lauds Tom's post on CWL. I must point out that it uses >sources that are secondary, that do not access the relevant >primary sources, and that are either accidentally or willfully >blind to the facts. There is only one well-researched >secondary source on this issue, Tillett's book. And if you >think he's biased and untrustworthy, he still leads you right >to the primary sources that show what really happened. > >Whenever JHE has posted here the relevant information he has >gotten attacked for it. Come on people, stop being ostriches! >The TS was a haven for full scale sexual abuse of the worst >kind, for years and years, due to the willful blindness of >people like... > >Well, people who refuse to even look at the evidence that would >upset their belief system. > We have visited this issue several times in the past (I do not have exact dates when the exchanges took place). The bottom line is very simple, at least for me. 1. What counts for me is my life. Yes my life. If CWL's or anyone else's writings or speeches have helped me, then I am very very grateful. Yes, I have been very much benefitted by many of CWLs writings. 2. Great people have great defects. Keeping this in mind helps to get an overall picture. 3. CWL's greatest contribution, IMHO, is his "discovery" of Krishnaji. 4. In turn, Krishnaji's lectures and books have helped me personally to view and relate to other human beings in life. 5. Krishnaji is the most well known in Theosophical and New Age circles than any of the thousands of academically well educated and well accredited speakers and writers of this century. Just a visit to your favorite book store will confirm this. 6. In order to keep my feet firmly on the ground, I frequently ask myself, what are the ideas and hypotheses which have helped me in my life's journey with my interaction with my fellow beings. Just my 2 cents worth. YMDMV .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 10:33:10 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Elder Brother excerpts Message-ID: <199706201433.KAA21517@leo.vsla.edu> >From The Elder Brother by Gregory Tillett. London: Routledge Kegan Paul, 1982. Background: For many years it had been standard procedure for CWL to form very close ties to adolescent and preadolescent boys with whom he spent almost all his time. Jinarajadasa was one of the first, Basil Hodgson-Smith another. A.P. Sinnett and another Theosophist had both placed their sons in CWL's care and then abruptly terminated the arrangement without any explanation given. But there were no public accusations of improprieties until in 1906 two boys, Robin Dennis and Douglas Pettit, children of Theosophists who had placed them in CWL's care, complained. Pettit, when asked by his parents why he had suddenly turned antagonistic to CWL, said "that Mr. L. had taught him how to practice self-abuse" in the words of Mrs. Dennis. Her own son Robin also showed dislike of CWL, and when pressed to explain said he could not. Finally, he confessed the same thing-- having been taught masturbation. When his mother asked when it happened, he said "The very first night I visited him we slept together."(p. 78) The material posted by Alan comes from this period. In 1910, Krishnamurti's father began making accusations of improprieties: "And his concern was encouraged by one of Mrs. Besant's servants, Lakshman, who brought him stories of finding Krishna naked in Leadbeater's presence"...(133) By 1912 K.'s father sued for the return of custody of his sons, which had been granted to Besant. At this point "he also claimed to have actually witnessed am `unnatural act' between Leadbeater and Krishna."(p. 149) A police investigation of CWL was instigated in Sydney after further accusations emerged. T. H. Martyn, a leading Australian Theosophist, had invited CWL to live in his home after his own son's tutor had gone to war in 1915. CWL stayed until 1917. One day, Mrs. Martyn saw "I saw Oscar [Kollerstrom, an adolescent] in a state of nudity in the bed with Mr. Leadbeater and Heyting also naked. He walked out of the room naked to his bed which was on the verandah...and I saw Mr. Leadbeater getting into bed where Oscar was and the light extinguished."(p. 198) T.H. Martyn concluded from observation of CWL and boys that "Mr. Leadbeater as as a motive and apart from any philanthropic purpose the gratification of a perverted sex impulse...his relations with some boys (probably not all the boys around him) has been for his personal sex gratification."(Ibid.) Hubert Van Hook had been promoted as a new Messiah by CWL before the "discovery" of Krishnamurti. At the time of the 1906 scandals, his father Weller had indignantly denied any immoral motives on Leadbeater's part. But in 1927 he publicly stated: "The undersigned, as a physician, a little lated caused to be published in good faith a statement that he believed the teachings referred to were given solely with the purpose and motive of aiding the recipients in their spiritual progress. The undersigned now states that he has not, for some years, been able to continue in this belief by things that there were also other motives involved...He regrets his former statement, which was erroneously but honestly made."(p. 227) Van Hook had been Gen. Sec. of the US Section at the time of the scandals. His son Hubert later alleged that Leadbeater had "engaged in sexual relations with him" which probably explains the father's change of heart. On p. 280, this appears in the midst of a paragraph summarizing relevant evidence: Claims that he had initiated sexual activities were specifically made by two of his pupils in the USA in relation to the 1906 `troubles', when it was claimed that he had indulged in mutual masturbation, alleging that this would promote physical vigour and have occult results as well. Hubert Van Hook also alleged, in later years, that Leadbeater had engaged in sexual relations with him. But other than these three boys, and one in Australia, non of his pupils ever offered any publis suggestion of sexual irregularities. Mrs. Besant fad stated that sex was not permissible for an Initiate, and the pupils all repeated that Leadbeater stressed the importance of purity. There were, however, a few things that might had led the suspicious to wonder. Why did Leadbeater invariably sleep with a young boy in his bed? And why did he invariably have a boy in the bath with him? It has been argued that his weak heart necessitated such companionship for fear he might have some sort of attack whilst alone; but does companionship require mutual nakedness in close proximity? And why did Leadbeater insist on communal bathing for his pupils at the Manor, with all of them in the bathroom, naked, at the same time? He was given an enema every morning by one or other of his pupils, in the presence of the others while they bathed. This, said the close associated of Leadbeater's who told of the morning ritual, may have given rise to misinterpretations. One could understand why."(280) Tillett concludes with an explanation of ritual masturbation which has already been alluded to and can be found in the closing pages of the book. Comments in a separate post. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:52:03 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: What the issues aren't - Tom Message-ID: <33AB25B3.610E@micron.net> Tom wrote: > By what passes for "abuse," I was "abused" once by a babysitter as a > child, also, but I am not aware of any ill effects. Are you so sure of that? > Even assuming the > worst, what's the big deal, anyway? The "big deal" is that children are suffering lifelong mental and physical trauma. You said "even assuming the worst, what's the big deal?" The heartlessness and callousness of such a statement is beyond words. However, perhaps you are so full of anger and pain at what happened to you, this is the way you have learned to cope. It is certainly understandable. Maybe no one cared when it happened to you - children are often abandoned mentally when they try to tell adults something the adult does not want to hear. But it is up to you to break the cycle. . .as it is with all of us. We are adults now - we owe the next generation in getting our shit together. We can stop it. Children don't have to go through what we went through. We can change the world. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:24:53 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Organ Donation Message-ID: <33AB3B73.A98@withoutwalls.com> Hi folks, This is Thoa. Just a quick question. What are your opinions as theosophists regarding organ donation? Is there any "theosophical" reason why one shouldn't? Thanks. Have a great one, folks! Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:15:47 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: militias Message-ID: <33AB0F18.1A43@earthlink.net> > Liberals are not like Nazis, nor do they > think or believe as the Nazis did/do. Anyone who does not believe in basic human rights is, rationally, in the same category. Enslavement, unequal taxation, etc. assume that one human group should be coercively treated differently than another...both express a vanity of judgement. > The Holocaust really is just a matter of convenient comparison to you, > isn't it? Just throw it around with no real thought of its meaning. . . Stalin killed 20 million...far more than the holocaust...the meaning is that basic human rights should be fundamentally supported by all gov't processes...when this is the case these issues will resolve themselves... (see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:35:50 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: advanced technique Message-ID: <33AB2FF6.6AEF@micron.net> liesel wrote: > > Dear Paul, > I love you too. > > b.s. > > Liesel Hmmmmm. . .it's a great life if you don't weaken. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:35:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: A suggestion Message-ID: In message <33A9C450.1FEC@bahia.ens.uabc.mx>, "Romero Cortez D.Ma" writes >Hi to all: >Alan: >I was thinking, you have a great selection of files on your homepage, i >was thinking,(i saw the circle cross stone you posted the other day) >Why don't you put the photos and files of the mystery crop circles that >have appear in your hometown, England? >I'm shure lots of us will apretiate that material. >Estrella I am sorry, but I do ot have access to this material. I expect it is to be found on the Web somewhere. Try an Alta Vista search on "crop circles" - they have been found in other countries too. There are many ancient crosses and such in Cornwall (UK), some of which are very near to where I live. I will try to upload some pictures of these from time to time. With best wishes, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:43:43 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Patrick - take note! Message-ID: <33AB31CF.2DED@micron.net> P. put: > (see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) P. - we got the message about the existence of your web page - a long, long time ago - in ABUNDANCE. Would you consider, at least, alternating your sandwich-board advertisements every second or third post. Too many http's make P. seem like a dull boy. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:52:43 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: What the issues aren't - Tom Message-ID: <19970620.185121.12223.2.trr@juno.com> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:49:12 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >Tom wrote: >> Even assuming the worst, what's the big deal, anyway? >The "big deal" is that children are suffering lifelong mental and >physical trauma. Did that happen to any of CWL's boys? >You said "even assuming the worst, what's the big deal?" The >heartlessness and callousness of such a statement is beyond words. Even if nothing significantly damaging happened? >However, perhaps you are so full of anger and pain at what happened >to you, this is the way you have learned to cope. Who does more damage - real child abusers or therapists who convince their patients that they are full of anger and pain? >Maybe no one cared when it happened to you - children are often >abandoned mentally when they try to tell adults something the adult >does not want to hear. Or maybe I had parents who were sensible enough to realize that there was no reason to worry about it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:05:39 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Goodwill Service Meditation www page Message-ID: <33AB1AD1.656B@earthlink.net> With the wonderful opportunity of both the full moon and summer solstice... Goodwill Service Meditation www page is http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/service.html Love, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:15:12 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Truth & Honesty y2k Message-ID: <33AB1D0C.15D4@earthlink.net> Ah solutions...for those interested the newsgroup basically says it as recent news reports have... divest of electronic finance... .. resource based econmics on the way... ( ref http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) Cheers, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:24:51 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Organ Donation Message-ID: <33AB4983.3CAA@eden.com> Mark Kusek wrote: > > Hi folks, > > This is Thoa. Just a quick question. What are your opinions as > theosophists regarding organ donation? Is there any "theosophical" > reason why one shouldn't? > > Thanks. Have a great one, folks! > > Thoa :o) I recall an article on this in a T Magazine. Will post when I find it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:46:20 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Peddling Meditation for a high price Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970621034620.006970d4@mail.eden.com> I just saw this in a Magazine from India. In an article discussing burnout of top executives and increased incidence of heart problems in late thirtees and early forties, various techniques are being tried to reduce stress. It is reported that "And at a seminar held in Goa (a city in India), in March, Deepak Chopra, the guru of gurus, prescribed, at Rs. 85,000 per person, primordial sound meditation to 300 .. corporate executives." What strikes me is the fact that Rs. 85,000 is a very high price indeed considering the monthly wages of an average skilled employee is about 6,000. While you charge whatever the customers can bear without complaining, I wonder if it is ok to peddle any of the mediative techniques. In passing, it may be recalled that Chopra some months ago gave one day seminar at Krotona and it was well attended and a lot of his books were sold much to the satisfaction of the organizers. With his movie actress (I can't recall her name -- she was in the cover of I believe People magazine with her bloated pregnant belly) PR person, I think Chopra is doing very well. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:54:30 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Peddling Meditation for a high price Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970621115430.00e6b848@mail.eden.com> At 11:48 PM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >I just saw this in a Magazine from India. In an article discussing burnout >of top executives and increased incidence of heart problems in late thirtees >and early forties, various techniques are being tried to reduce stress. > >It is reported that "And at a seminar held in Goa (a city in India), in >March, Deepak Chopra, the guru of gurus, prescribed, at Rs. 85,000 per >person, primordial sound meditation to 300 .. corporate executives." > >What strikes me is the fact that Rs. 85,000 is a very high price indeed >considering the monthly wages of an average skilled employee is about 6,000. >While you charge whatever the customers can bear without complaining, I >wonder if it is ok to peddle any of the mediative techniques. > >In passing, it may be recalled that Chopra some months ago gave one day >seminar at Krotona and it was well attended and a lot of his books were sold >much to the satisfaction of the organizers. With his movie actress (I can't >recall her name -- she was in the cover of I believe People magazine with >her bloated pregnant belly) PR person, I think Chopra is doing very well. > >...........doss > > > A follow up. Some months ago I saw a msg in a news group mentioning that Chopra seems to be charging it appears for the above sound meditation somewhere in the neighborhood of $35-40,000 (yes $40,000) in the US and there are takers in droves. Is there anyone who has heard about the above pricing? ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:25:54 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Transplants Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970621152554.00de65a4@mail.eden.com> Mark posted a msg on the topic. Here is an article I read several years ago. =========================================== Organ Transplant In the June 1986 issue of Theosophy in New Zealand a question and answer article dealing with human organ transplants appeared. The article gave some erroneous answers to some very serious questions. I have included the questions and answers as given in the magazine article followed by some Theosophical teachings on the subject. Question 1: The question of human organ transplants has: been troubling me for some time. How does the T.S. view them? Answer I doubt if the T.S. as a body has any official view on this question, and individual opinions may differ. Our literature as yet provides no guidance on it these new procedures. Question 2: It would seem a noble gesture to donate one's organs for - transplantation, but does the removal of essential organs at death have any lasting effect on the recipients after recovery and do they have any lasting effect on the "soul" in future? Answer: The only effect on the "soul" in donating organs to give added life to the doomed would, I think be the normal rewards of generosity in any form. Apart from the medical risks I doubt that the recipient would be affected in any way. The organs of the dead body are in a waning condition, whereas the l recipient is in a positives state. It seems to me most unlikely that a single organ could produce any overall effect on the recipient's body. I understand that only health organs are used. >From all I have read I understand that the etheric double remains intact even though parts of the physical body may have been removed. The rejection of the new organ so often experienced would probably be caused by the incompatibility of the donated organ with its new psychic field. Question 3: Bone marrow transplants and blood transfusions also trouble me. Would the same principles apply here as with organ transplants? Answer: Bone marrow transplants and blood transfusions are now accepted as normal life-saving techniques and apart from some religious strictures, it really comes down to personal choice, taking into account age, quality of life, responsibilities land expense. I should think that the: same principles would apply in transplants and transfusions. Reply to question l: The T.S. as a body may have no official view on the subject, but it does offer a wealth of information on this subject. In Blavatsky's Collected Writings (BCW) Volume 12, page 694, we quote: "...the Heart is the organ of the Spiritual Consciousness; it corresponds indeed to Prana, ... The Heart represents the Higher Triad, while the Liver and Spleen represent - the Quaternary, ...The Heart is the king of the Body, Body, its most important organ." As we can see, the heart is the: most important organ for Spiritual Consciousness. By removing the heart or any other organ from a person and implanting it into another body, the astral imprint of the donating individual I is transplanted along with the physical heart or other organ. If the center of your Spiritual Consciousness removed and another implanted, what effect do you think it would have on you? I would say that you would not be all of yourself, but a combination of two people. Reply to question 2: The removal of organs for transplant might appear to be a noble action on the superficial level, but if one thinks about it in the light of Theosophy, one can see the emptiness of the whole effort of trying to extend the life of an individual in this way. We should do whatever is reasonable to keep people alive, but we should also remember that there is no death. If one has to sever their spiritual consciousness to remain alive, I would think that it would be far nobler to die a graceful death than to do so. An operation such as a heart transplant would have a very profound effect on both individuals as their Karma would be mixed in a very intimate way. Reply to question 3: In BCW Volume 12, page 699, the blood "is the vital principle in us, Pranic rather than Prana and is closely allied to Kama and to the Linga Sarira, ..the circulation of life, Prana through the Body is by way of the Blood." Blood transfusions would also impart astral and other influence from the donor and might have a very long effect on the individual. It is now recommended by the medical authorities to give one's own blood before an operation if at all possible. This also prevents the transference of latent diseases. The real issue is, man's fear of death. Through the Theosophical teachings of reincarnation and Karma, the individual learns how to accept life and death as different aspects of the same thing and he therefore learns how to nobly and ethically live as well as how to nobly and ethically die. Editor ===================================================== MKR Comment: If anyone has the original article which appeared in the Theosophy in NZ magazine, and if I can get hold of a photocopy, I can arrange to post it here. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:03:55 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Transplants Message-ID: <19970621.090231.6655.1.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:27:53 -0400 (EDT) ramadoss@eden.com writes: >Mark posted a msg on the topic. Here is an article I read several >years ago. >=========================================== > >Organ Transplant >The removal of organs for transplant might appear to be a noble action >on the superficial level, but if one thinks about it in the light of >Theosophy, one can see the emptiness of the whole effort of trying to >extend the life of an individual in this way. > >We should do whatever is reasonable to keep people alive, but we >should also remember that there is no death. > >If one has to sever their spiritual consciousness to remain alive, I >would think that it would be far nobler to die a graceful death than to do >so. > >An operation such as a heart transplant would have a very profound >effect on both individuals as their Karma would be mixed in a very >intimate way. Maybe I'm inferring more than was implied in this article, but it seems to be frowning on organ transplants due merely to the fact that it might mingle the donor's non-physical influence with that of the recipient. Any help that anyone gives to anyone is interfering with them, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. It also seems to say that extending life is futile, since death is an illusion, anyway. If this is true, why not apply that principle consistently and not care at all in any way about the quality or the duration of one's life? Maybe if children are starving to death, we shouldn't feed them, since the only thing that matters is their spiritual growth. Maybe cleanliness should be neglected, since it only pertains to an illusory life, anyway. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:38:40 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Transplants Message-ID: <33AC0390.65D@eden.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:27:53 -0400 (EDT) ramadoss@eden.com writes: > > >Mark posted a msg on the topic. Here is an article I read several > >years ago. > > >=========================================== > > > >Organ Transplant > > >The removal of organs for transplant might appear to be a noble action > >on the superficial level, but if one thinks about it in the light of > >Theosophy, one can see the emptiness of the whole effort of trying to > >extend the life of an individual in this way. > > > >We should do whatever is reasonable to keep people alive, but we > >should also remember that there is no death. > > > >If one has to sever their spiritual consciousness to remain alive, I > >would think that it would be far nobler to die a graceful death than to > do > >so. > > > >An operation such as a heart transplant would have a very profound > >effect on both individuals as their Karma would be mixed in a very > >intimate way. > > Maybe I'm inferring more than was implied in this article, but it seems > to be frowning on organ transplants due merely to the fact that it might > mingle the donor's non-physical influence with that of the recipient. > Any help that anyone gives to anyone is interfering with them, but that > doesn't necessarily make it bad. It also seems to say that extending > life is futile, since death is an illusion, anyway. If this is true, why > not apply that principle consistently and not care at all in any way > about the quality or the duration of one's life? Maybe if children are > starving to death, we shouldn't feed them, since the only thing that > matters is their spiritual growth. Maybe cleanliness should be > neglected, since it only pertains to an illusory life, anyway. I have not seen the original article that appeared in Theosophy in NZ. It might bring other angles to this issue. I think in all these matters, each one has to come to their own conclusions. On a lighter note, when someone asks me about cremation, I tell them that one of the reasons for cremation is that most of us are such bad people that we do not want to leave any trace of us after we die. So we cremate and disperse the ashes in a river or sea. Most of the time, those who listen to this enjoy this angle. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:09:00 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Transplants Message-ID: <19970621.100821.6647.0.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:40:15 -0400 (EDT) ramadoss@eden.com writes: >On a lighter note, when someone asks me about cremation, I tell them >that one of the reasons for cremation is that most of us are such bad >people that we do not want to leave any trace of us after we die. So >we cremate and disperse the ashes in a river or sea. Most of the time, >those who listen to this enjoy this angle. > >..........doss As opposed to those few of us exceptionally good people who justifiably want to have eternal shrines in our memory. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 97 17:34:49 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Personal or Global Morality Message-ID: Summer is time when the list is usually less active. I just got back from Denver. I don't know if DENVER is a POWER CENTER of some kind, but with the T McVeigh trial, J Bonet Ramsey murder and now the economic summit, not to mention my little 'spiritual" conference, I can't help but feel something is going on there. I notice through browsing quickly through some of the posts that people are talking about things I talked about last year like militias, sexuality and spiritualiy, astromomical pheonomema etc as well as the usual TS historical issues. TO COME TO A POINT: There seems to be two types of moral or ethical imperatives that people are confusing (or maybe it is just me) :::))) What is the responsibility of the inidividual and what is the responsibility of the government or societal movements. I am thinking of terms like Nazism, liberalism, theosophical ideas of a nucleus of world (leaders?) or followers of the Masters. In other words, we cannot assume that humanity and world governments are going to adopt progressive theosophical ideas. There is a tremedous movement to return to Biblical values of nations states, tribal gods, family values etc. Notice the Disney boycott by the Southern Baptist Conventions. We are likely to see more, not less of this. A nucleus of humanity implies to me (whether for good or ill) and elite that makes decisions for the unwashed, untutored and unelightened masses. I am being heavily sarcastic here. Those of you that don't know me, may assume that I am suggesting such snobbery is good. The American experiment which in many ways is an occult experiment with a giganitic laboratory of old world ideas, suggests that democracy is the best way to go. Therefore things like voting myself money and benefits from the general purse (welfare, social security, medicare) etc. has been seen as a harmless pastime. Now we are in a new cycle of paying collective karma. Who is going to bear the burden of the past dancing to the tune of trillions of dollars of national debt? The next generation! May I not incarnate in such "interesting" times as the next hundred years! Sure compassion and care for the poor are in any spiritual game plan, but can we continue to live in the maya of a bottomless pit of entitlements. I am thinking too about myself. To what extent do I really pay my own karma and to what extent do I try to push it off on others. Projection of karmic debts is a bad habit like alcoholism, smoking and welfare. At some point it catches up with the individual and society. Now we want the tobacco companies to pay reparations. President Clinton wants us (?) to apologize to them (?) for slavery and I guess make more affirmative action reparations. Theosophy can be seen as putting karma on a grand scale from its Cosmogenesis chapters and puts karma more on an individual basis in its Anthropogenesis chapters. And to end: what is the difference between a Nazi and a liberal, how about thirty years and the winning of a World War? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:00:24 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Peddling Meditation for a high price Message-ID: <33AC16B8.C26@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > Some months ago I saw a msg in a news group mentioning that Chopra seems to > be charging it appears for the above sound meditation somewhere in the > neighborhood of $35-40,000 (yes $40,000) in the US and there are takers in > droves. Is there anyone who has heard about the above pricing? And there were complaints here about the NYTS charging $45 for a meditation class. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:02:44 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Transplants Message-ID: <33AC1744.28C7@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > doesn't necessarily make it bad. It also seems to say that extending > life is futile, since death is an illusion, anyway. If this is true, why > not apply that principle consistently and not care at all in any way > about the quality or the duration of one's life? Maybe if children are > starving to death, we shouldn't feed them, since the only thing that > matters is their spiritual growth. Maybe cleanliness should be > neglected, since it only pertains to an illusory life, anyway. That reminds me of one of my favorite Emily Sellon sayings: If our physical bodies are so unimportant, why did the Universe go through so much trouble giving them to us? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:08:37 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: A Theosophical Leader Speaks Out Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970621180837.00cdb8e8@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is an article from Autumn Equinox 1988 issue of the Theosophical Network. In the light what the author has said, we can look at the current stauts of TS and evaluate where it stands today. .............doss ====================================================================== A Theosophical Leader Speaks Out On the day when Theosophy will have accomplished its most holy and most important mission-namely, to unite firmly a body of men of all nations in brotherly love and bent on a pure altruistic work, not on a labor with selfish motives-on that day only will Theosophy become higher than any nominal brotherhood of man. This will be a wonder and a miracle truly, for the realization of which Humanity is vainly waiting for the last 18 centuries, and which every association has hitherto failed to accomplish. Orthodoxy in Theosophy is a thing neither possible nor desirable. It is diversity of opinion, within certain limits, that keeps the Theosophical Society a living and a healthy body, its many other ugly features notwithstanding. Were it not, also, for the existence of a large amount of uncertainty in the minds of students of Theosophy, such healthy divergences would be impossible, and the Society would degenerate into a sect, in which a narrow and stereotyped creed would take the place of the living and breathing spirit of Truth and an ever growing Knowledge... ...lt must be remembered that the Society was not founded as a nursery for forcing a supply of Occultists-as a factory for the manufactory of Adepts. It was intended to stem the current of materialism and also that of spiritualistic phenomenalism and the worship of the Dead. It has to guide the spiritual awakening that has now begun, and not to pander to psychic cravings which are but another form of materialism. For by "materialism" is meant now only an anti- philosophical negation of pure spirit, and, even more, materialism in conduct and action brutality, hypocrisy, and, above all, selfishness, - but also the fruits of a disbelief in all but material things, a disbelief which has increased enormously during the last century, and which has led many, after a denial of all existence other than that in matter, into a blind belief in the materialization of spirit.... ...Therefore it is that the Ethics of Theosophy are even more necessary to mankind than the scientific aspects of the psychic facts of nature and man.... ..Many are the energetic members of the Theosophical Society who wish to work and work hard. But the price of their assistance is that all the work must be done in their way and not in any one else's way. And if this is not carried out they sink back into apathy or leave the Society entirely, loudly declaring that they are the only true Theosophists. Or, if they remain, they endeavor to exalt their own method of working at the expense of all other earnest workers. This is fact, but it is not Theosophy. There can be no other end to it than that the growth of the Society will soon be split up into various sects, as many as there are leaders, and as hopelessly fatuous as the 350 odd Christian sects which exist in England alone at the present time. Is this prospect one to look forward to for the Theosophical Society? Is this "Separateness" consonant with the united Altruism of Universal Brotherhood? Is this the teaching of our Noble Masters? Brothers and Sisters in America, it is in your hands to decide whether it shall be realized or not. You work and work hard. But to work properly in our Great Cause it is necessary to forget all personal differences of opinion as to how the work is to be carried on. Let each of us work in his own way and not endeavor to force our ideas of work upon our neighbors... ...Thus, then, "Union Is Strength"; and for every reason private differences must be sunk in united work for our Great Cause.... ...if we will but unite and work as one mind, one heart. The Masters require only that each shall do his best, and, above all, that each shall strive in reality to feel himself one with his fellow- workers. It is not a dull agreement on intellectual questions, or an impossible unanimity as to all details of work, that is needed; but a true, hearty, earnest devotion to our cause which will lead each to help his brother to the utmost of his power to work for that cause, whether or not we agree as to the exact method of carrying on that work. The only man who is absolutely wrong in his method is the one who does nothing; each can and should cooperate with all and all with each in a large-hearted spirit of comradeship to forward the work of bringing Theosophy home to every man and woman in the country. Let us look forward, not backward. What of the coming year? And first a word of warning. As the preparation for the new cycle proceeds, as the forerunners of the new sub-race make their appearance on the American continent, the latent psychic and occult powers in man are beginning to germinate and grow. Hence the rapid growth of such movements as Christian Science, Mind Cure, Metaphysical Healing, Spiritual Healing, and so forth. All these movements represent nothing but different phases of the exercise and of these growing powers, - as yet not understood and therefore but too often ignorantly misused. Understand once for all that there is nothing "spiritual" or "divine" in any of these manifestations, The cures effected by them are due simply to the unconscious exercise of occult power on the lower planes of nature-usually of prana or life- currents. The conflicting theories of all these schools are based on misunderstood and misapplied metaphysics, often on grotesquely absurd illogical fallacies. But the one feature common to most of them, a feature which presents the most danger in the near future, is this. In nearly every case, the tenor of the teachings of these schools is such as to lead people to regard the healing process as being applied to the mind of the patient. Here lies the danger, for any such process however cunningly disguised in words and hidden by false noses-is simply to psychologise the patient. In other words, whenever the healer interferes - consciously or unconsciously-with the free mental action of the person he treats, it is - Black Magic. Already these so-called sciences of "Healing" are being used to gain a livelihood. Soon some sharp person will find out that by the same process the minds of others can be influenced in many directions, and the selfish motive of personal gain and money getting having been once allowed to creep in, the one-time "healer" may be insensibly led on to use his power to acquire wealth or some other object of his desire.... [Reprinted from "Letters to the American Conventions", by Helena Blavatsky] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:13:26 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Keith's Msg Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970621181326.00ce5760@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is a msg I picked up from theos-world. Anyone cares to comment? .....doss ====================== Dear Eldon Tucker: I am confused. I am recently back on-line and cannot keep up with all the new e-mail (lists?) I asume that this is your list (correct?) or is theosophy world? It seems Olcott (TSA) has their own list moderated by Joan somebody. And of course there is the oldest theos-l. Can you briefly help me sort this out if you have time? I do not have anyone's private e-mail address anymore since I changed internet providers. Thanks for your help. It may be a help to put this is as a general post or a FAQ for real newcomers! Is their a FAQ on all this. Sorry to bother you! Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:16:56 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970621181656.00ccff20@mail.eden.com> >It seems Olcott (TSA) has their own list moderated by Joan somebody. Where did you hear about it? Another secret???? .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 97 18:07:14 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Transplants and Clones Message-ID: >An operation such as a heart transplant would have a very profound >effect on both individuals as their Karma would be mixed in a very >intimate way. Maybe I'm inferring more than was implied in this article, but it seems to be frowning on organ transplants due merely to the fact that it might mingle the donor's non-physical influence with that of the recipient. Any help that anyone gives to anyone is interfering with them, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. It also seems to say that extending life is futile, since death is an illusion, anyway. If this is true, why not apply that principle consistently and not care at all in any way about the quality or the duration of one's life? Maybe if children are starving to death, we shouldn't feed them, since the only thing that matters is their spiritual growth. Maybe cleanliness should be neglected, since it only pertains to an illusory life, anyway. ------------------------------ Keith: Yup! I am glad I am not a Master and have to justify the ways of Karma to man. I think Blavatsky's real insight was seeing the loss of the Paradise of Religious solutions to life's problems and the coming of the Promise of a Paradise Regained of a Scientific Heaven of physical solutions. The problem was creating a synthesis of science, religion and philosophy (ethic, morality, aesthetics etc) that would give us some answers to some really new problems humanity would soon be facing. Religion says pray and let them die and go to their "reward" of heaven or hell. Science says keep the pumps going, the research going --- we are going to get to a better world through progress someday - everyday. The Ancient Wisdom provides no easy Utopias, but suggest long cycles governed by impersonal karmic formulas (and sometime suggest their are more personal representatives of karma called Masters). My mind shudders at the new Mingeles who own the HMO's who say "cut costs and let em suffer/die" as long a I and my kin get enough money to build our beautiful Eagle's Nests ( mansions with moats of utter elitism and discrimination surrounding them). Of course we are "lucky" to have such problems in the scientific/materialistic/ capitalistic world. I don't care what anyone says, I am not moving to Tibet even if Shamballa is there!. The Dali Lama had enough since to get away from those hateful communist Chinese and he certainly know more than I. Here is a question: If you clone the Dali Lama, how many true incarnations of the Buddha can you have? Answer: There are an infinite number of boddhisattvas, no? Given a democratic vote, would people vote for a hundred clones of the Dali Lama, Sylvester Stallone, Sharon Stone, or Dennis Rodman? Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:40:18 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: militias Message-ID: > Patrick wrote: > > > [ ... I suppose we can note and agree that a few fringe fanatics like > > the Nazis or most liberals do not believe in basic human rights but in > > coercively orchestrating society to make themselves feel good...and > > these groups are separate from consitutional "militias" ... ] It isn't "liberals" who have told me I was a tool of satan for studying HPB, cursed me as a killer for believing in a woman's right to choose, fired a good friend of mine because she was gay, bombed 2 clinics in Montana, and want prayers to the Christian god recited at school functions. It was self-righteous conservatives. And they aren't interested in making themsel;ves feel good - more like making sure anyone who doesn't believe as they do feels bad ... Seems like whenever conservatives talk about "basic human rights" it means the ones *they* define ... on one else's definition is acknolwedged - and if some of them had their way, other's definitions would land them in prison. A gay couple making love in Montana is committing a felony. This, I suppose, is the conservative notion of "rights" - "You have the basic human right to do anything our reading of the Bible tells you you can ... anything else may get you imprisioned". -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:56:37 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: militias Message-ID: <33AC0785.1805@earthlink.net> ..it is always people who deny basic rights who cause these difficulties...indeed there are those who call themselves "conservatives" who do not follow the doctrine of *freedom* ... the issue is promoting freedom among all...the problem today is that liberal tax laws are the prime factor in stiffling/stagnating spiritual societal evolution in the western nations (with reflexive effect on the global situation)...now more than anything else economic freedom is needed (i.e., free trade and no taxation) ...then these issues will resolve themselves in community relatonships. (see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 15:04:00 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: TS Listserver Message-ID: <33AC25A0.6D4E@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > >It seems Olcott (TSA) has their own list moderated by Joan somebody. > > Where did you hear about it? Another secret???? The paranoia here is becoming ridiculous. I am getting REALLY sick of this "anything the TSA does is automatically assumed to be evil, until proven otherwise, and maybe not even then" attitude that seems to be prevalent here. People talk about how the TSA supresses ideas, yet this group is every bit as supressive as the TSA; it's just a different set of ideas which will get someone thown in the gutter and kicked around. Have you ever asked TSA if they had a listserver? That's how I found out about it. Nothing sinister, nothing terrible, I just simply ASKED. That's all you, or anybody else here, needs to do. Now, if you ask them to send you the full source code, complete list of subscribers, activity logs, error logs, etc., and they say no, it MIGHT be because: A) Joan has promised privacy to subscribers, unless they specifically give it up (as I have) and B) Joan is kind of new to all this, and she is just learning, and she is way underpaid, and she may not have the TIME to get details, which, in the end, are meaningless anyway. When I go up to Wheaton this summer, I have alread offered to help out wherever my help is requested. But my problems with the list are entirely technical in nature; for the hard work that Joan is doing, I have nothing but praise. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 15:09:58 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: militias Message-ID: <33AC2706.557D@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > It isn't "liberals" who have told me I was a tool of satan for > studying HPB, cursed me as a killer for believing in a woman's right to > choose, fired a good friend of mine because she was gay, bombed 2 clinics > in Montana, and want prayers to the Christian god recited at school > functions. It was self-righteous conservatives. One thing that the right-wing and the left-wing have in common: They both want to control the lives of others. The major difference is that the right wing generally believes that they should be subject to the same rules (although there is plenty of hypocrites on both sides). I believe that all laws affect the ability of the individual to receive and learn from his or her own karma. My conclusion is that only those laws which are necessary to maximize the ability of the society to receive and learn from its own karma are proper; I guess that makes me a libertarian. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:55:47 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: More comments on subject Message-ID: <33AC23B3.1D4@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Dear Patrick: You said: > Absolutely...that is why taxes should be eliminated and education > privatized..then the best education will occur for the most along the > lines described by M. Montessori ( a student of HPB's ). Still i cannot be accord to you. the most Theosophical way should be that ALL pepole has right to THE BEST EDUCATION POSSIBLE, so is incongruent and untheosophical (And UNETHICAL) pretend that only a few elite have the best education and all the bunch of poor pepole that cannot afford it not. thank you for your attention. Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:08:16 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: More comments on subject Message-ID: <33AC188E.6EAB@earthlink.net> Yes...free high quality education for all is what will occur in economic freedom (i.e., no taxation and free trade) ...this is the "theosophical" way... (see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) > Still i cannot be accord to you. the most Theosophical way should be > that ALL pepole has right to THE BEST EDUCATION POSSIBLE, so is > incongruent and untheosophical (And UNETHICAL) pretend that only a few > elite have the best education and all the bunch of poor pepole that > cannot afford it not. Right! Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:14:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: CWL Message-ID: <970621161423_2022357339@emout11.mail.aol.com> Sorry folks if this appears twice on the list. The first time I tried posting it, I received the following inexplicable message (because I certainly didn't unsubscribe): wildefire@aol.com: You are not subscribed to theos-l@vnet.net. Your message is returned to you unprocessed. If you want to subscribe, send mail to listproc@vnet.net with the following request: subscribe THEOS-L Your Name Anyway, here's the message. (Now, I'm wondering how many messages I missed while "unsubscribed"!!!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - In a message dated 97-06-21 01:13:31 EDT, Tom wrote: quoting from: From "LIVES IN THE SHADOW WITH J. KRISHNAMURTI" > Page 50: [At the Theosophical Convention at Sydney in 1921 or 1922,] "All > the previous immorality charges were rehashed. All, according to > Krishna, were lies. He did not waver in his defence. With Nitya’s > support, Krishna upheld absolutely Leadbeater’s purity, although he would > make no such commitment to his clairvoyance. Some years before, Mrs. > Besant’s doubts about Leadbeater had been just the reverse." Well, here's the solution right here. Leadbetter with his clairvoyance, saw into the future what a stir this would cause (also shuddered from hearing himself referred to as the TS's Joycelyn Elders) and therefore decided not to teach the boys to masterbate... which when he looked into the future, he saw no problem about teaching boys to masterbate, therefore felt free to do so... which led to him looking into the future and seeing the problems that arose from teaching boys to masterbate... This infinitely looped sequence in the akashic record led to Krishnaji's upholding of CWL's purity and Besant's doubts about it, each having viewed a different portion of the loop. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:27:03 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: militias Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970621212703.00cd9df4@mail.eden.com> At 02:42 PM 6/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >> Patrick wrote: >> >> > [ ... I suppose we can note and agree that a few fringe fanatics like >> > the Nazis or most liberals do not believe in basic human rights but in >> > coercively orchestrating society to make themselves feel good...and >> > these groups are separate from consitutional "militias" ... ] > It isn't "liberals" who have told me I was a tool of satan for >studying HPB, cursed me as a killer for believing in a woman's right to >choose, fired a good friend of mine because she was gay, bombed 2 clinics >in Montana, and want prayers to the Christian god recited at school >functions. It was self-righteous conservatives. And they aren't interested >in making themsel;ves feel good - more like making sure anyone who >doesn't believe as they do feels bad ... Seems like whenever >conservatives talk about "basic human rights" it means the ones *they* >define ... on one else's definition is acknolwedged - and if some of them >had their way, other's definitions would land them in prison. > A gay couple making love in Montana is committing a felony. >This, I suppose, is the conservative notion of "rights" - "You have the >basic human right to do anything our reading of the Bible tells you you >can ... anything else may get you imprisioned". > -JRC > I saw a very interesting bumper sticker which read: God save me from your followers!!! .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:32:59 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS Listserver Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970621213259.00cd60a4@mail.eden.com> At 03:05 PM 6/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >> >It seems Olcott (TSA) has their own list moderated by Joan somebody. >> >> Where did you hear about it? Another secret???? > > The paranoia here is becoming ridiculous. > > I am getting REALLY sick of this "anything the TSA does is >automatically assumed to be evil, until proven otherwise, and maybe not >even then" attitude that seems to be prevalent here. People talk about >how the TSA supresses ideas, yet this group is every bit as supressive >as the TSA; it's just a different set of ideas which will get someone >thown in the gutter and kicked around. > > Have you ever asked TSA if they had a listserver? That's how I found >out about it. Nothing sinister, nothing terrible, I just simply ASKED. >That's all you, or anybody else here, needs to do. > > Now, if you ask them to send you the full source code, complete list of >subscribers, activity logs, error logs, etc., and they say no, it MIGHT >be because: > > A) Joan has promised privacy to subscribers, unless they specifically >give it up (as I have) and > > B) Joan is kind of new to all this, and she is just learning, and she >is way underpaid, and she may not have the TIME to get details, which, >in the end, are meaningless anyway. > > When I go up to Wheaton this summer, I have alread offered to help out >wherever my help is requested. But my problems with the list are >entirely technical in nature; for the hard work that Joan is doing, I >have nothing but praise. > > Bart Lidofsky > Thanks for the detailed response. Just a couple of hours ago I saw Price's msg and was curious about the list. If this is a maillist of TSA, I thought there would be some kind of announcement. It is surprising that but for Price's msg even this info would not have come out today. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:15:25 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: The Mysterious Joan Message-ID: <19970621.161428.8279.0.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:18:46 -0400 (EDT) ramadoss@eden.com writes: >>It seems Olcott (TSA) has their own list moderated by Joan somebody. > > Where did you hear about it? Another secret???? > >.........doss It sounds like this "Joan somebody" is the real impetus behind the "Wheaton oligarchy's" ruthless drive for power. P. S.: (Hi, Joan - just kidding!) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:15:26 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: militias Message-ID: <19970621.161428.8279.2.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:42:15 -0400 (EDT) JRC writes: > It isn't "liberals" who have told me I was a tool of satan for >studying HPB, cursed me as a killer for believing in a woman's right to choose, To be consistent with that logic, Timothy McVeigh should have had the "right to choose," also. >fired a good friend of mine because she was gay, bombed 2 >clinics in Montana, and want prayers to the Christian god recited at >school functions. It was self-righteous conservatives. It was liberals who, in the name of the "separation of church and state," want to remove all religion, spirituality, and morality from the schools. There may be a tiny minority of conservatives who want to insist that the Christian God be prayed to, but the large majority of them simply want the freedom to pray to whomever they want. The liberals don't want children to have such a "right to choose." >And they aren't interested in making themsel;ves feel good - more like >making sure anyone who doesn't believe as they do feels bad ... >Seems like whenever conservatives talk about "basic human rights" it >means the ones *they* define By whose definition should they go, if not their own? You are here, by implication, advocating purely arbitrary subjectivism, assuming that everyone's idea of basic human rights is equally valid. The problem with that approach is that basic human rights have objective existence, and the validity of each individual's perception of them depends on how accurately they have perceived them. > A gay couple making love in Montana is committing a felony. >This, I suppose, is the conservative notion of "rights" - "You have >the basic human right to do anything our reading of the Bible tells you >you can ... anything else may get you imprisioned". I thought liberals criticized conservatives for making the mistake of taking the worst examples from a group and closed-mindedly assuming all individuals of that group shared the same bad qualities. There probably are some conservatives who go too far in imposing their values like that. But it is just as valid to portray all liberals as bloodthirsty killers as Hitler and Stalin were as it is to suggest that all conservatives want to to put gay people in prison. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 16:38:47 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: militias Message-ID: <33AC49E6.662C@earthlink.net> Well said Tom! P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:21:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Organ Donation Message-ID: <+DZZLCAyHGrzEwrW@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33AB3B73.A98@withoutwalls.com>, Mark Kusek writes >Hi folks, > >This is Thoa. Just a quick question. What are your opinions as >theosophists regarding organ donation? Is there any "theosophical" >reason why one shouldn't? > >Thanks. Have a great one, folks! > >Thoa :o) Well, people give blood, so why not organs? (Best if they've finished using them, though). Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 19:14:03 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: P., T., and Mr. M. Message-ID: <33AC7C5B.23EE@micron.net> Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. wrote: > > Well said Tom! Patrick! I think I'm beginning to understand! I thought the same thing when: Mr. Magoo grabbed a hat rack and began to waltz around the room with it. But then, suddenly, unexpectedly, he uttered the most profound thought! Mr. Magoo proclaimed, in a bit of a huff, but compassionately, "Madam, you really do need to relax." Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 06:13:45 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Impersonality & Arguments Message-ID: <33AD08E7.BF5@earthlink.net> One can learn much from argument styles .. those interested in solutions focus on impersonal principles .. those with ulterior motives make things personal Peace to all, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:47:17 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Earthquakes & Volcanos Message-ID: <33AD3AF5.3CD2@earthlink.net> With the recent flow of earthquakes (last 3 days) from New Zealand, Alaska, offshore California, and Iran ...I found these in "A Treatise Cosmic Fire." "...in order to liberate Spirit from constricting forms. Volcanic action therefore may be looked for, demonstrating in unepected localities, as well as within the sphere of the present earthquake and volcanic zones. Serious disturbance may be looked for in California before the end of the century, and in Alaska likewise." (pp. 906-907). "One such centre is to be found at the North Pole, and two more are located within the planetary sphere, and frequently the infow of force or energy to these internal centres (via the polar centre) results in those disasters we call earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions." (pp. 1054-1055). P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 97 17:11:27 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: FW: Theos-World Mr. J. Price memo Message-ID: > From: Dallas Tenbroeck Sat June 21st k997 > Subject: Theos-World Mr. J. Price memo Dear Mr. Price: I received your memo and quite frankly do not understand it, so I will route this through T-World. If you wish to ask a question pleae do so, I will be glad to answer, if I can. Sincerely, Dallas TenBroeck =================================================== This is what I received: = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > > ---------- > From: owner-theos-talk@proteus.imagiware.com on behalf of Eldon B. Tucker > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 1997 3:31 PM > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Theos-World Asteroids, Comets, Meteors, etc. > > I received the following comments from Dallas TenBroeck that > I've been told are ok to pass on. > > -- Eldon > > ---- > > I > Dear Eldon Tucker: > > I am confused. I am recently back on-line and cannot keep up with all the new > e-mail (lists?) > > I asume that this is your list (correct?) or is theosophy world? > > It seems Olcott (TSA) has their own list moderated by Joan somebody. > > And of course there is the oldest theos-l. Can you briefly help me sort > this out if you have time? I do not have anyone's private e-mail address > anymore since I changed internet providers. > > Thanks for your help. It may be a help to put this is as a general post or > a FAQ for real newcomers! Is their a FAQ on all this. Sorry to bother you! > > Namaste > Keith Price > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. Keith: I seem to be some type of theosophical computer virus although I want to be helpful bacteria :) I am impulsive and when I am confused I cry for help, but the internet is so open and business-like a friendly request can be misconstrued as trouble making. My problem is there are so many lists now, I am having trouble sorting out who owns or moderates them, what there special purpose is and how I fit or don't fit in. There is a lot of e-mail in my box. You know what I mean! Namaste Keity From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:34:27 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Hall of Records & Cayce's predictions Message-ID: <33AD45FF.D32@earthlink.net> Hello, I found a www page on Hall of Records & Cayce's predictions http://www.lightwork.dk/Mystical.Crystal/cayce_hall.htm Shanti, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html *** (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 97 17:24:21 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Nazi and Liberal Totalitarians vs. Libertarians Message-ID: I did not mean to be flippant regarding comparing Nazis and liberals (well, maybe I did), but we all know that totalitarianism can come from the right or left. The Catholic Church saved souls, saved lives, but has the inquisition as ever part of its history, although its INTENTIONS were good, God knows. The same thing can be said of liberals who try to make people compassionate, caring, volunteering, responsible through LAWS, COERSION, SANCTIONS, and best of all other people's money - called TAXES. I don't think you can force people to be compassionate and as the disaster relief mess shows, both sides cared less for people than their own political careers (would it have be ideology, it would have been a little more forgiveable.) Thus, forgiveness is the only way to karmalessness, not demanding reparations, apologies, conforming to belief systems even as exalted as the ANCIENT WISDOM, and less exalted ideas as world government, beauracratic "caring" or many other sacred cows and other bloated bovines. My 2 cents Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 10:47:12 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: Nazi and Liberal Totalitarians vs. Libertarians Message-ID: <33AD48FA.57FD@earthlink.net> > Thus, forgiveness is the only way to karmalessness, not demanding > reparations, > apologies, conforming to belief systems even as exalted as the > ANCIENT WISDOM, > and less exalted ideas as world government, beauracratic "caring" or many > other sacred cows and other bloated bovines. Yea verily! In Love, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 97 17:56:06 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Kalki Message-ID: Almost forty years earlier, in his Heart of Asia, Nicholas Roerich, the mystic painter and explorer, conveyed the esoteric teaching he received in trans-Himalayan monasteries concerning the work of Kalki Maitreya before the end of the twentieth century: It is predicted that the manifestations of Maitreya shall come after the wars. But the final war shall be for the cause of the True Teaching. But each one rising up against Shamballa shall be stricken in all his works. And the waves shall wash away his dwellings. And even a dog shall not answer to his call. No clouds but lightning shall he see on the final night. And the fiery messenger shall rise up on pillars of Light. The Teaching indicates that each warrior of Shamballa shall be named the Invincible. The Lord Himself hastens. And his banner is already above the mountains. Thy Pasture shall reach the Promised Land. When thou tendest thy flocks, dost thou not hear the voices of the stones? These are the toilers of Maitreya, who make ready for thee the treasures. Keith: I found this on the internet. It is by R N Iyer of the Theosophy Lodge on-line. First does anyone know about him or her or this organization (yes, I should research for myself I know, but you can give me an opinion)? I found his ideas very interesting in that many are waiting for the WORLD TEACHER - some thought it was Krishnamurti. He had sense enough to take off that vestiture. Other seem to be playing out the role first as guru savior, then as destroyer, if not of the world , then of their limited little cult. You know them. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Ti and Do of Heavensgate, the solar temple people, that Japanese poison gas cult etc. I can think of a few strange others, like Timithy McVeigh. He really though he was a dark savior of a world that had grown so corrupt that it need to be blown apart even if the innocent children suffered because the world would soon corrupt their innocence so he was doing them a favor in his twisted mind. You have to kind of have a feel for these things - like in the SILENCE OF THE LAMBS - the screaming of the innocent lambs was the one thing Hannibal the Cannibal could use to manipulate the forces of good and order and control symbolized by the feminine embodiment of the FBI, CIA, ATF et al ie Jodie Foster as the agent. I don't think it does anyone anygood to meditate on this for too long, because it opens one up just to such negative neurotic symptoms we all have from childhood and early adulthood regarding unjustified sufffering of aninmal and children, unfairness of life, our animal need to eat and have recreational sex (despite what the Baptists say), and all that. I also think all these alien and UFO sightings are obviously looking for a saviour/destroyer a la Kalki Avatar. Did you see MARS ATTACKS! It is a very gnostic movie, in a way, in my opionion. The Shirley McLaine character expects the Martians to be HIGER BEINGS of enlightenment as she clutches her crystal and does her mudras and chanting. Later she picks up a gun and blows the snot out of them. So much for spiritual transformation :) Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:09:46 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Theosophy Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622110946.00882aa0@90.0.0.1> Hi. I got the following message today and was wondering what others might suggest. Does anyone have any suggestions regarding the request in this message? (for scholarships/financial support for people from poorer countries to attend theosophical conventions) -- Eldon >Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 03:15:46 +0300 >From: Eugen Matota >Reply-To: eugenm@delos.ro >To: eldon@theosophy.com >Subject: Theosophy >X-MDMail-Server: MDaemon v2.5 rA b1 32R >X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: eldon@theosophy.com > >Dear Sir, > >>From the beginning, sorry for my English, I'm writing from Romania, >where everybody's speaking Romanian... > >I'm very interested in Theosophy and, finding your message on the Net, I >decided to send you this email because I hope you can help to find an >answer to my problem. > >I don't intend to take to much of your time, so I'll be short: >I've been invited to attend to an International Seminary in Holland, at >The International Theosophical Centre in Naarden. >But I'm living in a country where the ticket to Amsterdam ($400) >represents half of the income for the whole year. Well, that's it.. > >So, to be really short, I wonder if you could give an idea: what to do >to receive a sponsorship. Is there a way to act in this kind of >situations? > >I will be very happy if you'll give me a hint. > >Your sincerely, > >Eugen Matota From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 13:06:28 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: FW: Theos-World Mr. J. Price memo Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970622180628.00ce89a4@mail.eden.com> At 01:21 PM 6/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >---------- >From: owner-theos-talk@proteus.imagiware.com on behalf of Dallas & Valerie >TenBroeck >Sent: Saturday, June 21, 1997 6:53 PM >To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >Cc: Theos-World >Subject: Theos-World Mr. J. Price memo > >From: Dallas Tenbroeck Sat June 21st k997 > >Dear Mr. Price: > > I received your memo and quite frankly do not understand it, so I will >route this through T-World. > > If you wish to ask a question pleae do so, I will be glad to answer, if >I can. > > Sincerely, Dallas TenBroeck > >=================================================== > >This is what I received: > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > >JOSEPH PRICE wrote: >> >> ---------- >> From: owner-theos-talk@proteus.imagiware.com on behalf of Eldon B. Tucker >> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 1997 3:31 PM >> To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >> Subject: Theos-World Asteroids, Comets, Meteors, etc. >> >> I received the following comments from Dallas TenBroeck that >> I've been told are ok to pass on. >> >> -- Eldon >> >> ---- >> >> I >> Dear Eldon Tucker: >> >> I am confused. I am recently back on-line and cannot keep up with all the >new >> e-mail (lists?) >> >> I asume that this is your list (correct?) or is theosophy world? >> >> It seems Olcott (TSA) has their own list moderated by Joan somebody. >> >> And of course there is the oldest theos-l. Can you briefly help me sort >> this out if you have time? I do not have anyone's private e-mail address >> anymore since I changed internet providers. >> >> Thanks for your help. It may be a help to put this is as a general post >or >> a FAQ for real newcomers! Is their a FAQ on all this. Sorry to bother >you! >> >> Namaste >> Keith Price >> >> -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com >> >> Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >> teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >> "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > >Keith: I seem to be some type of theosophical computer virus although I want >to be helpful bacteria :) I am impulsive and when I am confused I cry for >help, but the internet is so open and business-like a friendly request can be >misconstrued as trouble making. > >My problem is there are so many lists now, I am having trouble sorting out who >owns or moderates them, what there special purpose is and how I fit or don't >fit in. There is a lot of e-mail in my box. You know what I mean! > >Namaste >Keity > Keith: I do not see anything wrong with your msg. Your request is very reasonable. Many others lurking here will also benefit from the responses you get for your request. Be yourself. If someone does not like your msg, then it is not your problem, it is theirs. BTW, my e-mail program allows me to set up separate mail boxes based on various criteria and it helps the incoming mail to be sorted and stored in different mail boxes so that I can easily review important msgs quickly without wading through a lot of mail. Peace ...........doss PS: The following are owned by John E Mead and not in any way or form supported directly or indirectly by any Theosophy organization. theos-l theos-news theos-buds theos-tech theos-roots theos-span The owner of the following is Alan Bain. ti-l To subscribe to any of the above send a e-mail msg to listserv@vnet.net with just the following line in the body of the msg. subscribe theos-xxxxx yyyyyyyyyyyyyyy where theos-xxxxx is theos-l or theos-news or .... and yyyyyyyyyyyyyy is your real name. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 13:10:09 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Kalki Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970622181009.00734ec0@mail.eden.com> At 02:05 PM 6/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >Almost forty years earlier, in his Heart of Asia, Nicholas Roerich, the mystic >painter and explorer, conveyed the esoteric teaching he received in >trans-Himalayan monasteries concerning the work of Kalki Maitreya before the >end of the twentieth century: > >It is predicted that the manifestations of Maitreya shall come after the wars. >But the final war shall be for the cause of the True Teaching. But each one >rising up against Shamballa shall be stricken in all his works. And the waves >shall wash away his dwellings. And even a dog shall not answer to his call. No >clouds but lightning shall he see on the final night. And the fiery messenger >shall rise up on pillars of Light. The Teaching indicates that each warrior of >Shamballa shall be named the Invincible. The Lord Himself hastens. And his >banner is already above the mountains. Thy Pasture shall reach the Promised >Land. When thou tendest thy flocks, dost thou not hear the voices of the >stones? These are the toilers of Maitreya, who make ready for thee the >treasures. > > >Keith: I found this on the internet. It is by R N Iyer of the Theosophy >Lodge on-line. First does anyone know about him or her or this organization >(yes, I should research for myself I know, but you can give me an opinion)? > >I found his ideas very interesting in that many are waiting for the WORLD >TEACHER - some thought it was Krishnamurti. He had sense enough to take off >that vestiture. Other seem to be playing out the role first as guru savior, >then as destroyer, if not of the world , then of their limited little cult. >You know them. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Ti and Do of Heavensgate, the solar >temple people, that Japanese poison gas cult etc. > >I can think of a few strange others, like Timithy McVeigh. He really though >he was a dark savior of a world that had grown so corrupt that it need to be >blown apart even if the innocent children suffered because the world would >soon corrupt their innocence so he was doing them a favor in his twisted mind. > You have to kind of have a feel for these things - like in the SILENCE OF THE >LAMBS - the screaming of the innocent lambs was the one thing Hannibal the >Cannibal could use to manipulate the forces of good and order and control >symbolized by the feminine embodiment of the FBI, CIA, ATF et al ie Jodie >Foster as the agent. > >I don't think it does anyone anygood to meditate on this for too long, because >it opens one up just to such negative neurotic symptoms we all have from >childhood and early adulthood regarding unjustified sufffering of aninmal and >children, unfairness of life, our animal need to eat and have recreational sex >(despite what the Baptists say), and all that. > >I also think all these alien and UFO sightings are obviously looking for a >saviour/destroyer a la Kalki Avatar. Did you see MARS ATTACKS! It is a very >gnostic movie, in a way, in my opionion. The Shirley McLaine character >expects the Martians to be HIGER BEINGS of enlightenment as she clutches her >crystal and does her mudras and chanting. Later she picks up a gun and blows >the snot out of them. So much for spiritual transformation :) > >Namaste >Keith > In the Hindu tradition, the next Avatar is called Kalki avatar is symbolically represented as the Avatar riding on a horse. Avatars are supposed to come at times of great need to put down the bad guy(gal), according to Hindu traditions. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 13:13:56 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theosophy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970622181356.00ce67b0@mail.eden.com> At 02:08 PM 6/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi. > >I got the following message today and was wondering what others >might suggest. > >Does anyone have any suggestions regarding the request in this >message? (for scholarships/financial support for people from >poorer countries to attend theosophical conventions) > >-- Eldon > >>Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 03:15:46 +0300 >>From: Eugen Matota >>Reply-To: eugenm@delos.ro >>To: eldon@theosophy.com >>Subject: Theosophy >>X-MDMail-Server: MDaemon v2.5 rA b1 32R >>X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: eldon@theosophy.com >> >>Dear Sir, >> >>>From the beginning, sorry for my English, I'm writing from Romania, >>where everybody's speaking Romanian... >> >>I'm very interested in Theosophy and, finding your message on the Net, I >>decided to send you this email because I hope you can help to find an >>answer to my problem. >> >>I don't intend to take to much of your time, so I'll be short: >>I've been invited to attend to an International Seminary in Holland, at >>The International Theosophical Centre in Naarden. >>But I'm living in a country where the ticket to Amsterdam ($400) >>represents half of the income for the whole year. Well, that's it.. >> >>So, to be really short, I wonder if you could give an idea: what to do >>to receive a sponsorship. Is there a way to act in this kind of >>situations? >> >>I will be very happy if you'll give me a hint. >> >>Your sincerely, >> >>Eugen Matota > I think if all of us join in we can come up with some solution. Does anyone know about the affiliation of the Naarden Center and what is the scope of the program in terms of the duration and who the speakers are and what the topics are and what the objectives are. All this information will help to get an overall picture of the program. .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 97 18:20:27 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Message-ID: Be what he may, once that a student abandons the old trodden highway of routine, and enters upon the solitary path of independent thought -- Godward -- he is a Theosophist, an original thinker, a seeker after the eternal truth, with 'an inspiration of his own' to solve the universal problems." --from The Omnipresent Proteus, by H. P. Blavatsky Keith: I have never heard of THE OMNIPRESENT PROTEUS (but I haven't heard of a lot of things!) This is interesting that someone chose to make it such an important quotation. For me, it has something to do with the idea that in whatever incarnation you set yourself on the path -- you can backslide and even fall down a few cliffs. But there are beings to help you up. But one has to ask for help and one may not catch up to the place where one thinks one should be on the path -- but we can all be 'inspirations' to someone, somewhere at sometime by evidencing the lessons we have learned in an outward expression. The fruits of meditation are not be kept to rot, but the seeds are to be sown. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 15:02:27 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: HPB on Randomness Message-ID: <19970622.120103.5455.1.trr@juno.com> In "The Secret Doctrine," volume 1, page 653, she writes: "Most certainly chance is "_impossible_." There is no chance in Nature, wherein everything is mathematically co-ordinate and mutually related in its units. "Chance," says Coleridge, "is but the pseudonym of God (or Nature), for those particular cases which He does not choose to subscribe openly with His sign manual." Replace the word God by that of _Karma_ and it will become an Eastern axiom." I find this difficult to go along with. The laws of probability are just as eternal, inherent, and universal as are the laws of physics. Flip a coin 2 million times, and heads will show up approximately a million times. I used to see chance as requiring ignorance, regarding circumstances in the same deterministic way that HPB is here suggesting, but I don't believe it, anymore. I see no meaning to random circumstances and I see no reason to believe in this "synchronicity" that new agers talk about. Scientists seem to be drifting in this direction, also, with their "uncertainty principle," implying that they believe that they never will eliminate the element of chance from their equations. Maybe there would be no chance for an omniscient being. I believe there would be. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 15:25:15 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Nazi and Liberal Totalitarians vs. Libertarians Message-ID: <19970622.122432.5455.4.trr@juno.com> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 13:36:46 -0400 (EDT) "JOSEPH PRICE" writes: >I did not mean to be flippant regarding comparing Nazis and liberals >(well, maybe I did), but we all know that totalitarianism can come from >the right or left. The Catholic Church saved souls, saved lives, but >has the inquisition as ever part of its history, although its INTENTIONS >were good, God knows. Adolf Hitler's intentions were good, also. He just wanted to have a strong, pure country. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 19:17:46 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: DeMolay Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970623001746.00697744@mail.eden.com> Hi Does anyone know much about the DeMolay Fraternal Organization? Is is similar to Masonry? I heard that many prominent leaders in the country are members. .....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:37:21 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Transplants Message-ID: <0y1LHJABPHrzEw4N@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <19970621.100821.6647.0.trr@juno.com>, Tom Robertson writes >As opposed to those few of us exceptionally good people who justifiably >want to have eternal shrines in our memory. Forget it - I have! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:09:19 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: education Message-ID: <199706230127.VAA20658@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Absolutely...that is why taxes should be eliminated and education >privatized..then the best education will occur for the most along the >lines described by M. Montessori ( a student of HPB's ). Patrick, I have the same question again. If education is privatized, and the money doesn't come from taxes, who's going to pay for it? Like the teachers and the supplies? But to come back to Estrella's ideas on that education might be done cheaply, without much money ... that is possible, I think, provided you have very dedicated imaginative teachers, who can use papers and pencils and scissors (very simple tools) as concrete teaching aids. But the teachers must also be well trained, and that also costs money. And sometimes they have to have access to new ways of teaching, and that also costs money. I can see that some teaching can be done imaginatively on a shoestring, but its easier with a bit of dough. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:11:04 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: cwl Message-ID: <199706230129.VAA22015@ultra1.dreamscape.com> > a corrupt priest and a corrupt >>religious institution. > >Well put. > >Alan >--------- Always provided they're corrupt in the first place. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 01:35:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Transplants Message-ID: <1CuL7HAuNHrzEw7b@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970621152554.00de65a4@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >In Blavatsky's Collected Writings (BCW) Volume 12, page 694, we quote: > >"...the Heart is the organ of the Spiritual Consciousness; it corresponds >indeed to Prana, ... The Heart represents the Higher Triad, while the Liver >and Spleen represent - the Quaternary, ...The Heart is the king of the >Body, Body, its most important organ." .. only in a living body. After physical death the spiritual consciousness is transformed into the next dimension. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:31:20 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: <33ADB5C7.574E@earthlink.net> > Does anyone know much about the DeMolay Fraternal Organization? Is is > similar to Masonry? I heard that many prominent leaders in the country are > members. I was a Demolay member...it is as a junior Mason order might be and is sponsored by the Masons...general principles are the same... Shanti, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html *** (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:19:37 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: child abuse Message-ID: <199706230138.VAA27818@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Tom said what's the big deal, anyway? Tom, I think any time a child is being abused, it's a big deal, you as a child are no exception to me. For one thing children often can't help themselves. For another they're often harmed. Maybe you've outgrown and/or dealt with whatever happened to you, but many people have a difficult time. I had a friend once who had a very loveless childhood. The only one who loved her was her grandpa whose life was just as loveless, so he abused her. They both got a little warmth. What a time she had with herself. She loved and abhorred her grandfather at the same time. It was like a dog trying to bite its tail. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:46:45 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: education Message-ID: <33ADB961.3906@earthlink.net> > I have the same question again. If education is privatized, and the > money doesn't come from taxes, who's going to pay for it? Like the teachers > and the supplies? Ah...in "resource based economics" it is not a matter of paying for processes (of course if taxes were eliminated even in the current scenario there would be plenty of volunteer money) but of the evolution of localized barter and resource based systems... Perhaps I should say that supply & demand economics is an illusion because it is unsustainable. In natural (i.e., non-coercive, non tax based) systems people DO what is needed...and resources cycle thereof... ..for references see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:40:16 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: cwl Message-ID: <199706230158.VAA11978@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >the TS's Joycelyn Elders) (She's the greatest.) Har har hardihar har har, Lynn Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:47:27 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: joan at wheaton Message-ID: <199706230205.WAA16570@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear people, Just for your all's info and guidance Joan is pretty new at Wheaton, and she's been doing some real good work. I fully agree with Bart that we ought to support her, instead of giving her the old theos-l 1,2. Joan is conducting the new national study group, which is studying the "Voice of the Silence", and she's just been put in charge of Wheaton's new mailing list ts-l@theosphia.org. This mailing list is so new that most people haven't been informed of it yet. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:49:28 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: joan in wheaton ps Message-ID: <199706230207.WAA18030@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Joan's family name is Joan McDougall. LFD From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 20:56:45 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: nazis, liberals etc Message-ID: <199706230215.WAA22880@ultra1.dreamscape.com> I don't know Patrick, I think it's kind of nice if you experience this overwhelming flood, and you lose all your belongings, if your government steps in and helps you a little bit, and I think spending my tax money for such a purpose is service on my part. Of course, if they start politicizing around in Congress before they appropriate the money, that's a horse of a different color. They ought to be ashamed of themselves. liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:03:21 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: naarden Message-ID: <199706230221.WAA27243@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Doss inquires >Does anyone know about the affiliation of the Naarden Center and what is the >scope of the program in terms of the duration and who the speakers are and >what the topics are and what the objectives are. All this information will >help to get an overall picture of the program. > >.............doss Doss, ask Wheaton. I forwarded them a copy of your request. Maybe they'll answer. If not ask again. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:29:32 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: RE: Theosophy Message-ID: <01BC7F7D.4ED12460@rvik-ppp-115.ismennt.is> Einar here. Since I am pretty familiar with the seminars at Naarden, I think that I might have some words on this one. As it seems that Eugen has been invited to the Seminar at Naarden this year, I assume that it has been on the behalf of the European Federation of the TS, which apart from being the sponsor of the seminar is the coordinator for the contacts in Eastern Europe and Russia. I have during the past few years (actually since before the breakdown of the Iron Curtain) had the privilege to meet a lot of people from Eastern Europe at Naarden and elsewhere, most of them by the invitation of the EFTS. I suggest that Eugen should contact the EFTS, which has funds for this purpose and have been sponsoring quite many to come to its seminars in Naarden and elsewhere in Europe. They have also been traveling throughout Eastern Europe with Theosophical seminars and talks. If the EFTS is not able to help (the funds are tragically limited), then it may be worth trying to call on some of the European Sections for help. If someone wants to help Eugen, then I suggest that s/he should do it through or in cooperation with the EFTS. The Chairman of the EFTS is: Miss Tran-Thi-Kim-Dieu 67 Rue des Pommiers, F-45000 Orleans, France. Tel/fax: +33-38 84 36 97 Email: kimdeu-ts@magic.fr ---------------------------------------------------- Eldon Wrote: ---------- Hi. I got the following message today and was wondering what others might suggest. Does anyone have any suggestions regarding the request in this message? (for scholarships/financial support for people from poorer countries to attend theosophical conventions) -- Eldon >Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 03:15:46 +0300 >From: Eugen Matota >Reply-To: eugenm@delos.ro >To: eldon@theosophy.com >Subject: Theosophy >X-MDMail-Server: MDaemon v2.5 rA b1 32R >X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: eldon@theosophy.com > >Dear Sir, > >>From the beginning, sorry for my English, I'm writing from Romania, >where everybody's speaking Romanian... > >I'm very interested in Theosophy and, finding your message on the Net, I >decided to send you this email because I hope you can help to find an >answer to my problem. > >I don't intend to take to much of your time, so I'll be short: >I've been invited to attend to an International Seminary in Holland, at >The International Theosophical Centre in Naarden. >But I'm living in a country where the ticket to Amsterdam ($400) >represents half of the income for the whole year. Well, that's it.. > >So, to be really short, I wonder if you could give an idea: what to do >to receive a sponsorship. Is there a way to act in this kind of >situations? > >I will be very happy if you'll give me a hint. > >Your sincerely, > >Eugen Matota From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:41:57 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: RE: Theosophy Message-ID: <01BC7F7F.0663A8E0@rvik-ppp-115.ismennt.is> Einar here again. The International Theosophical Center (ITC) at Naarden, The Netherlands, Has become "the home of Theosophy" in Europe since the last decade or so. Each year there are several seminars held there, usually one by the European Federation (EFTS) in July or August. This time the activities planned for the summer are: April 19th - 23rd. Seminar with Dr. John Algeo. Theme: 'Senzar the Mystery of the Mystery Language'. May 22nd - at 15.00 hours Wesak Full Moon. Talk by the President and Meditation. July 17th - 20th Seminar with the International President, Radha Burnier. Theme: 'Spiritual Preparation for Practical Action'. July 22nd - 23rd. EFTS Executive and Council Meetings. July 24th - Celebration of the Dutch Centenary. July 25th - 27th . The Dutch Summer School (with talks by Radha Burnier). October 17th - 19th. A weekend with Paul Zwollo on the Mahatma Letters for Dutch speaking participants. The ITC is situated about half an hour by train from Schiphol Airport (Amsterdam) is a secluded area, a real spiritual Sanctuary, and has a large lecturing hall as well as lodging facillities. If you are visiting Holland, especially Amsterdam you should drop in and see for yourself. The address is: Intrnational Theosophical Centre Valkeveenselaan 19 1411 GT Naarden, The Netherlands Tel. +31 (0) 35 694 5121, Fax: +31 (0) 35 694 2973 Ps: the E-mail to Kim-Dieu is: kimdieu-ts@magic.fr - (an "I" missing!) - sorry. -------------------------------------- Doss wrote: Does anyone know about the affiliation of the Naarden Center and what is the scope of the program in terms of the duration and who the speakers are and what the topics are and what the objectives are. All this information will help to get an overall picture of the program. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:40:07 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970623024007.00cdd394@mail.eden.com> At 09:33 PM 6/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >> Does anyone know much about the DeMolay Fraternal Organization? Is is >> similar to Masonry? I heard that many prominent leaders in the country are >> members. > >I was a Demolay member...it is as a junior Mason order might be and is >sponsored by the Masons...general principles are the same... > >Shanti, >Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. thanks for the info. Do DeMolay admit girls (women)? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:42:44 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: joan at wheaton Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970623024244.00ce8964@mail.eden.com> At 10:05 PM 6/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dear people, > >Just for your all's info and guidance >Joan is pretty new at Wheaton, and she's been doing some real good work. >I fully agree with Bart that we ought to support her, instead of giving her >the old theos-l 1,2. Joan is conducting the new national study group, which >is studying the "Voice of the Silence", and she's just been put in charge of >Wheaton's new mailing list ts-l@theosphia.org. This mailing list is so new >that most people haven't been informed of it yet. > >Liesel > Thanks for the information. In these days of Internet, all it takes is posting a msg in the cyberspace. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:48:21 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: RE: Naarden Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970623024821.00cf3e5c@mail.eden.com> Thanks Einar for the quick response. I have forwarded your msg to Eugen Matota so that he can see your msg and act as suggested. Hopefully, Eugen will be able to get help from Naarden. I posted the questions because I did not know much about Naarden. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:51:10 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: naarden Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970623025110.00cd7ae8@mail.eden.com> At 10:21 PM 6/22/97 -0400, liesel f. deutsch wrote: >Doss inquires > >>Does anyone know about the affiliation of the Naarden Center and what is the >>scope of the program in terms of the duration and who the speakers are and >>what the topics are and what the objectives are. All this information will >>help to get an overall picture of the program. >> >>.............doss > > >Doss, > >ask Wheaton. I forwarded them a copy of your request. Maybe they'll answer. >If not ask again. > >Liesel > Liesel: Already Einar has provided the details about Naarden. Internet has once again proved its effectiveness. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:13:58 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Impersonality & Arguments Message-ID: <199706230313.VAA06358@mailmx.micron.net> Patrick wrote: >One can learn much from argument styles > >.. those interested in solutions focus on impersonal principles > >.. those with ulterior motives make things personal I am sure you and some others on this list consider yourselves being in the first category - but when you and others, for example, compare liberals to Nazis - knowing full well who on this list are liberals - and knowing full well it's a falsehood - you and others like you KNOW it will be taken personal. The hatred for the poor, the disadvantaged, the non-Theosophists, etc. . .that I have heard expressed lately on this list doesn't bring to mind manners as my first priority. I take it personal when I hear racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia, and other such views spewed in rabid abundance. Getting things done sometimes requires naming names or directly facing someone. Even your above post is a personal attack - despite whether you have the courage to acknowledge it or not. I consider most of the views you and others like you on this list hold as nothing less than dangerous - dangerous to Theosophy and dangerous to certain members of humanity. Some people don't go along to get along - and prefer the direct approach. If I read something I consider rank, I'll directly confront the author of it. I expect the same from them. I will continue to do the same with you - if you don't want to continue to read my posts - so be it. But I'll never let something go if I think it stinks. . .'course, lately, due to the multitude I've had to pick and choose to challenge only the worst offenders. . .you, Patrick, being one of them. When you say you agree with some garbage that Tom or somebody else has written, you are as guilty as Tom or the somebody else in spreading the hatred and misunderstanding. I can live with myself much, much better knowing I've possibly insulted you than knowing I remained silent. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 03:39:28 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Human Solidarity (Brotherhood)- no ism's Message-ID: ENQUIRER. Agreed. But who is to decide whether social efforts are wise or unwise? THEOSOPHIST. No one person and no society can lay down a hard-and-fast rule in this respect. Much must necessarily be left to the individual judgment. One general test may, however, he given. Will the proposed action tend to promote that true brotherhood which it is the aim of Theosophy to bring about? No real Theosophist will have much difficulty in applying such a test; once he is satisfied of this, his duty will lie in the direction of forming public opinion. And this can be attained only by inculcating those higher and nobler conceptions of public and private duties which lie at the root of all spiritual and material improvement. In every conceivable case he himself must be a centre of spiritual action, and from him and his own daily individual life must radiate those higher spiritual forces which alone can regenerate his fellow-men. ENQUIRER. But why should he do this? Are not he and all, as you teach, conditioned by their Karma, and must not Karma necessarily work itself out on certain lines? THEOSOPHIST. It is this very law of Karma which gives strength to all that I have said. The individual cannot separate himself from the race, nor the race from the individual. The law of Karma applies equally to all, although all are not equally developed. In helping on the development of others, the Theosophist believes that he is not only helping them to fulfill their Karma, but that he is also, in the strictest sense, fulfilling his own. It is the development of humanity, of which both he and they are integral parts, that he has always in view, and he knows that any failure on his part to respond to the highest within him retards not only himself but all, in their progressive march. By his actions, he can make it either more difficult or more easy for humanity to attain the next higher plane of being. ENQUIRER. How does this bear on the fourth of the principles you mentioned, viz., Re-incarnation ? THEOSOPHIST. The connection is most intimate. If our present lives depend upon the development of certain principles which are a growth from the germs left by a previous existence, the law holds good as regards the future. Once grasp the idea that universal causation is not merely present, but past. present and future, and every action on our present plane falls naturally and easily into its true place, and is seen in its true relation to ourselves and to others. If every mean and selfish action sends us backward and not forward, while every noble thought and every unselfish deed are stepping-stones to the higher and more glorious planes of being. If this life were all, then in many respects it would indeed be poor and mean; but regarded as a preparation for the next sphere of existence, it may be used as the golden gate through which we may pass, not selfishly and alone, but in company with our fellows, to the palaces which lie beyond. The Key to Theosophy, 233-237 H.P. BLAVATSKY Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. ST. PAUL Keith: This is a long quotation, but I think worth it as bears on the finger-pointing at Nazi's, liberals, conservatives and other theosophists. When one practices the virtues (as Jesus, and some in the death camps did and others) it cannot help, but have an effect on the Romans, Philistines, Nazi guards etc. The hardest part is overcoming the Nazi within (I am talking to you Nytenyatu, Arafat, Shein Fein and all the crappy rest which are in my heart also), It may take seven lifetimes to achieve the human solidarity we all crave and are willing to sacrifice for in such twisted ways as the kamikazes (terroritsts) we see all around us from all religion and ideologies. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 00:03:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Child abuse Message-ID: <970623000307_-859092425@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-20 04:43:16 EDT, you write: > A child being hit by an adult - and especially by one >who claims to love them - is a bewildered and frightened child. > >And we wonder why our children are turning on us. . . > > It can also be highly hazardous to the health of the adult if the child decides to grease the basement stairs. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 04:11:45 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: RE: Theos-World Asteroids - Nostradomus and the 1999 ANTI-CHRIST Message-ID: -- Eldon ---- I noted the news items on the strange orbit of the asteroid in question -- around Sun and Earth. As I recall, in the SD, in dealing with conditions prior to the settling down of comets into stable orbits there is stated that there would be many conflicts, and only those which established parabolic orbits would be able to "save themselves" from being englobed or attached to already existing planets, globes, etc... I would have to look up the exact pages if you or others want. It is a series of strange statements, and for those I have no other corroboration. In any case it takes in astronomics so much time for things to happen, that only observations over millennia might give a clue to actual events in our future. It is a pity that the Chaldean, Egyptian and Indian records of observations are no longer available for our checking and use. I found 2 references in the SD where it was stated that evidences of organic materials was found on meteorites that had been captured by the Earth. They are indexed there. I am thinking of all the fuss made some months back about the meteorite supposedly blasted from the face of Mars by cometary impact. Apparently those who wrote the SD were aware of such things. Many more interesting references about astronomical anomalies are to be found in the SD: I 204 (top) - On Cometary orbits I 593-4 - Master on comets, etc I 597, 602 - Matter of Comets, etc. different from our Earth matter II 158, 706 - Organic matter found in meteoritescom. Keith: I was wathching THE UNEXPECTED on cable TV. They mentioned a prophecy by Notrodamus regarding the third anti-christ. The first two were Napolean and Hitler (Hister) supposedly. They had one of the quatrains that suggested that the Great Khan would return in 1999. The commentatories thought this was ridiculous, but what about CLONING. There seems to be a great effort by all nations to STOP human cloning (I almost wrote coloning!) Well, how about this for a sci-fi scenariol they find a relic on the Great Khan and those devil commies clone the SOB in their newly developed Hong Kong lab. They invade the US through the ship yard at Long Beach which we know they own now anyway. Clinton has made a deal to help with all this as he gets to be number two in the Novo Ordo Seculorum (think of all those Gatt and Nafta treaties) or how about if the Great Khan just comes back on one of those wild and crazy comets (Nostrodamus this would happen synchronistically with the return of the anti-Christ). It's getting really late folks Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:01:55 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: child abuse Message-ID: <19970622.230023.8559.0.trr@juno.com> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 21:37:30 -0400 (EDT) liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) writes: >Tom said > what's the big deal, anyway? >Tom, >I think any time a child is being abused, it's a big deal, you as a >child are no exception to me. For one thing children often can't help >themselves. For another they're often harmed. Maybe you've outgrown >and/or dealt with whatever happened to you, but many people have a >difficult time. >I had a friend once who had a very loveless childhood. The only one >who loved her was her grandpa whose life was just as loveless, so he >abused her. They both got a little warmth. What a time she had with >herself. She loved and abhorred her grandfather at the same time. It >was like a dog trying to bite its tail. I was referring specifically to the worst that CWL might have done, which doesn't seem all that bad to me, as I have never heard anyone accuse him of forcing anyone to do anything. I don't see the harm that a child can be caused in a sexual context if nothing is done against his or her will. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 02:01:55 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Impersonality & Arguments Message-ID: <19970622.230023.8559.1.trr@juno.com> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 23:14:33 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >The hatred for the poor, the disadvantaged, the non-Theosophists, etc... >that I have heard expressed lately on this list doesn't bring to mind >manners as my first priority. I take it personal when I hear racism, >sexism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia, and other such views spewed in >rabid abundance. One problem with cynically making all these false accusations is that, by being responsible for the creation of such thought forms, it tends to create the very thing it is making the accusations about, strengthening the very attitudes it claims to be opposing. My first post on this list, more than 6 months ago, asked what was meant by sexism in a way that retained its negative connotations. I still have yet to hear an answer from anyone. When it is used to mean "believing there are differences between men and women," or when racism is used to mean "believing there are differences between races," they become useless as tools for criticism, since there is nothing wrong with being aware of such differences. And when they are used in this reckless way, it only creates the need for new words to mean what they used to mean, and, as happened in the story of the boy who cried "Wolf!," it deafens listeners' ears, exposing authentic victims to ridicule. What's xenophobia, anyway? I've heard of homophobia, which seems like a misnomer, since I believe it is meant to mean prejudice against homosexuals, but it literally seems to mean fear of homosexuals. Is it the same situation with xenophobia? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 04:09:44 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: <33AE3D57.6E7D@earthlink.net> > thanks for the info. Do DeMolay admit girls (women)? There is a companion organization for women..."Rainbow..." P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:03:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: CWL Message-ID: <970623100305_-1193542467@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-23 07:26:28 EDT, Liesel wrote: (quoting me up to the closing parethesis after "Elders") > >the TS's Joycelyn Elders) (She's the greatest.) > > Har har hardihar har har, Lynn Just to make sure no one's confused, Liesel added the parenthetical remark "(She's the greatest.)" to the line where I'm quoted. Liesel, this was just in case someone missed my original message and would otherwise think that I said that. :-) Now that I think about this some more and remember the uproar our former Surgeon General Dr. Elders made when she recommended teaching about masturbation in public schools, I can imagine how livid parents of CWL's students must have been when the accusations were made against him (however rightly or wrongly). At least in a private educational setting, parents can choose to take their children elsewhere if they don't like the content or quality of the curriculum. Parents of children in public schools don't have that choice, especially poverty-stricken parents, and our politicians don't even want to give them vouchers so that they can make these decisions for themselves. (Meanwhile, our "illustrious" president, while opposing school choice for the American public, exercised his right to school choice and sent Chelsea to private school.) This is just one reason why some of us become so furious at liberals who continue to extort taxes from us to pay for programs we don't even agree with (and don't even work) while denying us the means to make our own choices. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:20:20 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Impersonality & Arguments Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Tom Robertson wrote: > My first post on this list, more than 6 months ago, asked what was meant > by sexism in a way that retained its negative connotations. I still have > yet to hear an answer from anyone. When it is used to mean "believing > there are differences between men and women," or when racism is used to > mean "believing there are differences between races," they become useless > as tools for criticism, since there is nothing wrong with being aware of > such differences. And when they are used in this reckless way, it only > creates the need for new words to mean what they used to mean, and, as > happened in the story of the boy who cried "Wolf!," it deafens listeners' > ears, exposing authentic victims to ridicule. > Not hearing answers you like or accept is by no means the same thing as not being answered. you were answered, fully, and by several people. Until people got tired of playing with you. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 13:32:41 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: See you next Round. . . Message-ID: <199706231932.NAA22676@mailmx.micron.net> I'm leaving theos-l. I wasn't even going to say anything about it - but, due to vanity and a particular private post - I didn't want anyone to think my silence was some sort of acquiescence. So there. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:39:19 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: See you next Round. . . Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > I'm leaving theos-l. I wasn't even going to say anything about it - but, > due to vanity and a particular private post - I didn't want anyone to think > my silence was some sort of acquiescence. So there. > > Kym > > Yeah ... I'm pretty much about to leave also - this list appears to resemble more of a discussion list for the Republican National Committee than it does a theosophical discussion list. Have fun right-wingers ... it looks like you "won". From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:53:08 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970623225308.00e05888@mail.eden.com> At 05:12 PM 6/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >> thanks for the info. Do DeMolay admit girls (women)? > > There is a companion organization for women..."Rainbow..." > >P > The reason I inquired about is due to the fact that mainline masonic organizations exclude women. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:55:10 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: See you next Round. . . Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970623225510.00dfe654@mail.eden.com> At 05:39 PM 6/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > >> >> I'm leaving theos-l. I wasn't even going to say anything about it - but, >> due to vanity and a particular private post - I didn't want anyone to think >> my silence was some sort of acquiescence. So there. >> >> Kym >> >> >Yeah ... I'm pretty much about to leave also - this list appears to >resemble more of a discussion list for the Republican National Committee >than it does a theosophical discussion list. Have fun right-wingers ... it >looks like you "won". > I have a very easy solution. My e-mail reader can filter those messages I don't want even to see, and they are automatically sent to the trash mailbox. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:18:54 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: See you next Round. . . Message-ID: <19970623.171732.7695.1.trr@juno.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:39:36 -0400 (EDT) JRC writes: >Yeah ... I'm pretty much about to leave also - this list appears to >resemble more of a discussion list for the Republican National >Committee than it does a theosophical discussion list. Have fun >right-wingers ... it looks like you "won". Now maybe we can discuss our hatred for the poor and our extremist policies of throwing starving children out into the street in peace. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:40:49 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: See you next Round. . . Message-ID: <33AEFB49.70DC@earthlink.net> Peace & Love to all...solutions are found in honest forthright understanding discussion...let us flow ... Namaste, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 01:30:23 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Kalki Message-ID: <3JC75AAfOcrzEwqh@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes > Later she picks up a gun and blows >the snot out of them. So much for spiritual transformation :) I thought this was the way of spiritual unfoldment that some appeared to advocating recently? Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:02:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Human Solidarity (Brotherhood)- no ism's Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >It may take seven lifetimes to achieve the human solidarity we all crave and >are willing to sacrifice for in such twisted ways as the kamikazes >(terroritsts) we see all around us from all religion and ideologies. > >Namaste >Keith Price Indeed - there seems to be a strong consensus that everyone being armed to the teeth will help it along enormously. Some twisted logic to me, however it is put. .. like we should beat our swords into handguns. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:05:37 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Theos-World Asteroids - Nostradomus and the 1999 ANTI-CHRIST Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >or how about if the Great Khan just comes back on one of those wild and crazy >comets (Nostrodamus this would happen synchronistically with the return of the >anti-Christ). > >It's getting really late folks >Keith Price So I see ... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:57:17 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: The same Message-ID: <33AF1B6D.7BFD@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hi As Kym, i'm also leaving for a while...but it's not because some pepole that i get tired of try to make understand some points, but the matter is that school is gonna close and i would not can read my mail and it's gonna get very filled and i will have some troboulse with that. I think i'll reasume my writing in the list next school course. Also to say goodbye to some friends that i meet here...Doss,Thoa, Liesel,Doc, Lynn and Kym. Ah, to Eldon too. And, for the last straw: Justr remember what Blavatsky said about the way we can know the true and the false theosophists...."By their work you will recognize them" I use to get mad and fight a lot in simmilar post places and in life with pepole that have very differnt points of view....but not anymore. Just i don't worry again. Blavatsky was right. Estrella P.S. hoping ALL OF US can really learn the true way to help our brothers and sisters or this mother Earth to evolutionize more rapidly..we are somewhat slower...we should be quicker. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:23:48 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: child abuse Message-ID: <8X8ZePAkGyrzEwLx@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <19970622.230023.8559.0.trr@juno.com>, Tom Robertson writes >I don't see the harm that a child can >be caused in a sexual context if nothing is done against his or her will. Then you have a lot to learn. I had a little (all too little) contact with Tillet (~The Elder Brother~ man) before he died, and there was no dount that his book would have contained much more explicit material had not some of his sources chickened out at the last minute. The possibility - probability even - is that some of "the boys" who slept naked in CWL's bed were psychologically manipulated by him using the promise of "spiritual advancement." It is clear, even from within Tillet's book, that one man (formerly one of CWL's "boys" in Sydney, Australia) was severely traumatised by his experiences, and remained so to such a degee that he remained terrified of being named himself, and withdrew permission to use diary materials at the very last moment. Some have argued that CWL did not abuse boys known to them or friends of theirs. That is not surprising, as I doubt if anyone fancies every other human being. The records are quite clear that *some* boys were at least "used" by him, as the parents COMPLAINED after they found out. (The abuse charge was NEVER concerned with girls: why not?). If someone tells me (say) that I have two choices; to be slapped around or murdered, I guess I would truly *want* to be slapped around. BOTH options would be against my will. And addressing a real possibility, a child may well agree to something sexual being done to it *if it does not know what it is like to experience the act concerned.* So the act is done with the consent and will of the child, and NO HARM IS DONE? Get real. AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:29:39 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: See you next Round. . . Message-ID: In message <199706231932.NAA22676@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes > >I'm leaving theos-l. I wasn't even going to say anything about it - but, >due to vanity and a particular private post - I didn't want anyone to think >my silence was some sort of acquiescence. So there. > >Kym > Sob, howl, moan, complain, don't do it, etc.... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:03:48 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Chuck abuse Message-ID: In message <970623000307_-859092425@emout08.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >It can also be highly hazardous to the health of the adult if the child >decides to grease the basement stairs. > >Chuck the Heretic I heard about that - you recevoered yet? Alan %-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:03:07 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Guru, Tradition and Freedom (Part 1 of 2) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970624120307.0074a658@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is an interesting piece on the subject. The participants in the discussion are Krishnaji, Achyut Patwardhan, Swami Sundaram, and Radha Burnier. Achyut Patwardhan was a freedom fighter for Indian Independence and was one of the most sought after revolutionary during the British Rule and he was underground for several decades. Swami Sundaram is a sanyasi well versed in traditional Hindu Sacred Works. I think this discussion brings out the issue of Guru. Some of you will find it interesting. Due to the length of the post, it is posted in two parts. .........doss =================================== THE GURU, TRADITION, AND FREEDOM In 1971 at Rishi Valley School in South India, a sannyasi asked Krishnamurti a personal question that Krishnamurti would not normally have responded to. The question was raised within the traditional framework which posits renunciation as a necessary condition of enlightenment. The semilegendary accounts of the life of the Buddha which have come down to us, to take only one instance, vividly describe Prince Siddhartha's passage from the life of a prince to that of an enlightened mendicant. Following these accounts, sculptors and painters from Afghanistan to Java tell the poignant story of Prince Siddhartha's renunciation; we see him stealing away at the dead of night without bidding farewell to his wife and his newly born son, cutting his princely locks, parting from his loyal horse and the mourning groom and, finally, we see his wife, past associations written vividly on her face, looking up at her husband, a compassionate and impersonal sage. Even though Krishnamurti had willingly given up the ready-made role of World Teacher and renounced the wealth and power attached to the role, his autobiographical answer to the sannyasi's question did not refer to these events of his life. Indeed, Krishnamurti did not consider that he had renounced anything, because there was nothing to renounce. Neither renunciation nor an awareness of life as sorrow, he felt, had informed his discovery. He said that he did not know how he had come upon enlightenment because he had not gone through the ordinary human experience of becoming-envy, ambition, and competition. "And therefore," he replied, "there was never any question of giving up." Krishnamurti's answer here is reminiscent of the statement he made to Mary Lutyens, when, as his biographer, she asked him who or what he was. This not-knowing was at the mysterious core of the man who advocated self-knowledge as the only instrument of freedom. Krishnamurti (K): Could we relate the whole field of tradition to what we are talking about to see the divergencies, contradictions, and similarities, and also to see if there is anything new in what we are saying? Let us discuss this, questioning it back and forth. Achyut Patwardhan (A): Let us start with the four traditional purusarthas (aims of life): dharma (duty), artha (wealth), kama (pleasure) and moksa (freedom). The traditional approach to living begins with the fact that existence has these four aspects, and each of them is vital for the development of the human being. K: Should we not start with the meaning of it all? A: The traditionalists started with the four aspects as the meaning. K: Should we not inquire what human existence, human sorrow, and conflict mean? How do the professionals answer this question? Swami Sundaram (SW): In the tradition we find two clear directions - the orthodox direction which goes by verbal interpretation of facts, and the breakaway tradition as seen in Dattatreya and the Yoga Vasistha. The seers who broke away said, "No guru. We have discovered it for ourselves; we will not swear by the Vedas. The whole of nature, the whole world is my guru. Observe and understand the world." For the Buddha also, there was a breaking away. His teaching represents the core of the breakaway pattern. Those who broke away were closely linked with life. If you read the Yoga Vasistha, it says that the mind is full of thoughts, conflicts, and that these conflicts arise because of desire and fear. Unless you are able to resolve them, you cannot understand. It talks of negative thinking. Max Muller and some others misinterpreted the word nirodha. The word does not mean suppression, it means negation. A great deal is said about gurus. The Yoga Vasistha says that giving initiations and such other actions are meaningless. The awakening of the disciple in right understanding and in awareness alone is his primary responsibility. These essentials are the core of the breakaway tradition. Radha Burnier (R): And yet there are many places in the Yoga Vasistha where it says that without a guru you cannot find anything. A: Breakaway from what? Is it a breakaway from the social system? But the breakaway tradition also continues the social system. R: How is it that the guru tradition has become so important? K: Shall we discuss this question of the guru? Shall we begin with that? What does the word guru mean? SW: Desika is the right word, not guru. Desika means one who helps to awaken the disciple, one who helps the seeker to understand, one who learns. R: The disciple is called the sishya, one who is capable of learning. SW: Guru also means vast, beyond, great. K: The guru is one who is great, beyond, one who is profound. Then what relationship has he to a disciple? SW: In the Upanishads, it is one of love and compassion. The Upanishads maintain that compassion is the contact between the guru and the disciple. K: How has the tradition now become authoritarian? How has a sense of discipline, of following, of accepting whatever the guru says been introduced into the relationship? The authoritarian, compulsive, destructive relationship comes in the way of real thinking; it destroys initiative. How has this relationship come into being? SW: It is difficult to say. The two approaches must have existed for a long time. In one tradition the guru is taken as a friend, as a person the disciple loves; here the guru is not authoritarian at all. The other tradition exploits. It wants authority and followers. A: Swamiji's main point is that there has not been a homogeneous stream. There is the outsider and there is the conformist. A nonconformist is one who rejects society; he is outside society. R: We come back to your first question: What is it all about? Apart from the gurus, what is the fundamental answer to life? K: I wonder if we could find out. Could you dig into it? Could you dig everything out of me? Do you understand what I mean? You come to a well and you get water according to the size of your bucket; whatever vessel you carry, that is the amount of water you get. You have read a great deal of ancient literature; you have practiced; you have read what we have talked about; you are well equipped from the traditional point of view; and you know what is happening in the world. Now, you and I meet. Dig out of me as much as you can. Question me about everything, from the beginning to the end. Question deeply - as the conformist and as the nonconformist, as a guru and as a nonguru, as a disciple and as a nondisciple. It is like going to a well with a tremendous thirst, wanting to find out everything. Do it that way, sir. Then I think it will be profitable. SW: Then can I be absolutely free? K: Break all the windows because I feel wisdom is infinite; it has no limits. And because it has no frontiers, it is totally impersonal. So with all your experience, knowledge, and understanding of tradition and the breakaway pattern, which also becomes tradition, with what you know and what you have understood, from your own meditations, from your own life, you come to me. Do not be satisfied by just a few words. Dig deep. SW: I would like to know how you came to it yourself. K: You want to know how this person came upon it? I could not tell you. You see, sir, he apparently never went through any practice, any discipline, jealousy, envy, ambition, competition. He did not want power, position, prestige, fame. And, therefore, there was never any question of giving up. So when I say I really do not know, I think that would be the truth. Most of the traditional teachers go through all this - they give up, practice, sacrifice, control; they sit under a tree and come upon clarity. SW: In your teaching, sensitivity, understanding, and passive awareness are factors that must saturate all one's living. I would like to ask how you came upon all this. A: You may have had nothing to give up, and, therefore, had no discipline, no sadhana. But what about people who have something to give up? K: I really could not tell you how I came upon all this. I wonder why you bother about it. How is it important? SW: It is curiosity; it is joy. K: Let us go beyond that. SW: When you speak of awareness, attention, sensitivity, one is filled with wonder. How did he come to all this? How is a man able to talk this way? And when we analyze what you say, we find that it is scientific, rational, and so full of meaning. K: You know the story of how the boy was picked up, how he was born in the most orthodox Brahmin family, that he was not conditioned either by tradition or anything in life - Hinduism or Theosophy; none of it touched him. And I do not know why it did not touch him. A: This question which he asks may be put in another idiom. How did it happen that a person who was in the midst of an environment which laid maximum stress on phenomenal life did not get caught in that life? SW: K came to it. He is not able to explain how he came to it. But in his talks the whole logic of it is clear. And it is a wonder how, without any practice, he came to it. K: How is it that a man like K, not having read the sacred books of the East or the West, not having gone through the whole gamut of experience - of giving up, of sacrifice - says these things? I really could not tell you, sir. A: You gave the answer a minute ago when you said that wisdom is not personal. K: But he asks how one came upon wisdom without all this. SW: I am not asking how he came upon it, but I find a cogency and a rationality in his talks; it comes and the listener finds beauty and joy. It is in his heart. K: When you say that it has come because it is in his heart, I do not know how to respond. It comes - not from the heart or from the mind. It comes. Or would you say, sir, that it would come to any person who is really not selfish? SW: Perfectly so, sir. K: I think that would be the most logical answer. SW: Or is it that you saw the misery of mankind and then got it? K: No. To answer this question properly, completely, one has to go into the whole thing. There was that boy who was picked up; he went through all kinds of things: he was proclaimed the Messiah; he was worshiped; large properties were given to him; he had a great following. None of this touched him - he gave up land as easily as he accepted it; he did not read any sacred books; he did not read any philosophy or psychology; he never practiced anything; and there was the quality of speaking from emptiness. SW: Yes. K: You understand, sir, there is never any accumulation from which he speaks. So the question - How do you say such things? - involves a larger question: whether wisdom, or whatever you might like to call it, can be contained in any particular consciousness, or whether it lies beyond all individual consciousness. Look at this valley, sir. Look at the hills, the trees, the rocks - the valley is all that. Without the content of the valley, there is no valley. Now if there is no content in consciousness, there is no consciousness - in the sense of the limited. When you ask the question: How is it that he says these things? - I really do not know. But the question can be answered. When it happens, the mind is completely empty. This does not mean that you become a medium. SW: I conclude from this that infinity is beauty and rationality. K: Sir, having said that, what is it that you want to find out? You have capacity; you have read a great deal; you have knowledge and experience; you have practiced and meditated. From there, ask. SW: Consciousness is bondage. Only from the emptiness is there an entry into this. K: So you are asking how a human being can empty the mind. SW: There is the traditional idea of the adhikari, a person who can learn. And the traditional idea is that there are levels or differences in the person who can receive or learn. What he can learn depends on that difference. The three levels mentioned in the orthodox text are: sattva, rajas, and tames. Those who belong to the first category, sattva, can have understanding without listening to a teacher of understanding. Those who belong to the category of rajas have to listen and recollect when they face a problem of life. The tames cannot learn because their minds are too gross. In order to make the mind subtle, there are many upasanas, or methods. Yoga starts with breath control and standing on the head. The asanas (postures of the body) are meant as a cleansing. It is said: Whatever you do, be passive, observe. K: You say that the way human beings are constituted, there are levels or gradations of receptivity. Is it possible for people who are still in the process of becoming to come upon this? SW: That is one part of it. The other is that for most people there are moments of understanding. But these slip away, and there is a constant struggle. What are such people to do? K: Knowing there are levels, is it possible to cut across these levels? A: Is that a question of time? SW: Can we cut across these levels, or are there processes by which we can transcend these levels? R: Tradition says that a long process of time is necessary. SW: I do not agree with that. R: One must have the competence to understand. A: I say my life is a life of becoming. When I come and sit with you, and you say that time is irrelevant, I say yes because it is clear. But then I am back again in the field of time, effort, etc., and this thing which I feel, I understand, slips away. =========================== end of part 1 of 2 ================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 07:03:21 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Guru, Tradition and Freedom (Part 1 of 2) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970624120321.006e0464@mail.eden.com> ============================Part 2 of 2 =============================== K: When I listen, I seem to understand, but when I go away it is gone. The question is fairly clear, "How is one who is not bright, one who is not rational, to break through his conditioning and come upon it?" What is your answer to this? SW: My answer which is based on experience, and which is also the traditional answer, is this: Let such a man practice some form of meditation which makes the mind more alert. K: That is, do certain practices, do certain exercises, breathing, etc., until the mind is capable of understanding. And someone else says, "When I listen to you, I understand, but it slips away." These are the two problems. Now let us consider how a mind that has no capacity can be capable of seeing. How is such a mind capable of seeing, understanding without practice, without the time process? Time implies process, right? How is such a mind to come upon this without time? My mind is dull, my mind does not have the clarity to understand this thing immediately. So you tell me to practice, to breathe, to eat less; you ask me to practice all the methods and systems which will help to make my mind sharp, clear, sensitive. All that involves time, and when you allow time, there are other factors which enter into the mind. The path on which I walk is not straight and narrow; innumerable incidents, happenings, impressions are going to change the movement of my direction - before I get there, I see something beautiful, and I am carried away. And that thing which I am trying to understand is not a fixed point either. A: The point that it is not a fixed thing should be explored. K: I say my mind is confused, is disturbed; I do not understand. You tell me to understand by doing these things. So you have established understanding as a fixed point, and it is not a fixed point. SW: It is not a fixed point. K: Obviously. If it is a fixed point, and I am going towards it, there are other factors which enter into my journey towards it, and these factors are going to influence me much more than the end. A: That end is a projection of the unknowing mind. K: That way is not the way at all. First, see this. It is not a fixed point, and it can never be a fixed point; therefore, I say that is a false thing altogether. Then, as that is not the way, when I deny the whole thing, I have wiped away a tremendous field - all practices, all meditations, all knowledge. Then what have I left? I am left with the fact that I am confused, that I am dull. Now, how do you know I am dull, how do you know I am confused? Only through comparison, because I see that you are very perceptive and I say, through comparison, through measurement, "I am dull." I do not compare, and I see what I have done through comparison - I have reduced myself to a state which I call dull. I see that is not the way either. So I reject comparison. Am I dull then, if I do not compare? I have rejected the system - a process, a fixed end which you have evolved as a means of enlightenment through time. And I say, comparison is not the way; measurement means distance. SW: Does it mean that this understanding is not a matter vitally connected with capacity at all? We started with capacity. K: I listen to you, Swamiji, but I do not understand. I do not know what it is that I do not understand, but you show me - time, process, fixed point, etc. You show it to me, and I deny them. So what has happened to my mind? in the very rejection, in the denial, the mind has become less dull. The rejection of the false makes the mind clear; and the rejection of comparison, which is false, makes the mind sharp. So, what have I left now? I know I am dull only in comparison with you. Dullness exists in my measuring myself with what is called brightness. I say I will not measure. Then am I dull? I have completely rejected comparison comparison means conformity. What have I left? The thing I have called dull is not dull; it is - what is is. What have I left at the end of all this? All that I have left is: I will not compare anymore; I will not measure myself with somebody who is superior to me; and I will not tread this path which is beautifully laid out for me. So I reject all the structures which man has imposed upon me to achieve enlightenment. So, where am 1? I start from the beginning. I know nothing about enlightenment, understanding, process, comparison, becoming. I have thrown them away. I do not know. Knowledge is the means of getting hurt, and tradition is the instrument by which I get hurt. I do not want that instrument, and, therefore, I am not hurt. I start with complete innocence. Innocence means a mind that is incapable of being hurt. Now I say to myself: "Why did they not see this simple fact that there is no fixed point? Why did they pile all this on the human mind, which I have to wade through in order to discard it all?" It is very interesting, sir. Why go through this process if I have to discard it? Why did you not tell me: "Do not compare; truth is not a fixed point?" Do I flower in goodness through comparison? Can humility be gained through time and practice? Obviously not. And yet you have insisted on practice. Why? When you insist on practice, you think that you are going towards a fixed point. So you have deceived yourself and you are deceiving me. You do not say to me: "You know nothing and I know nothing; let us find out if what all the things human beings have imposed on other human beings are true or false. They have said that enlightenment is something to be achieved through time, through discipline, through the guru. Let us find out, search it out." Why have human beings imposed upon human beings something which is not true? Human beings have tortured themselves, castigated themselves to get enlightenment, as though enlightenment were a fixed point. And they end up blind. I think that is why, sir, the so-called man of error is much nearer the truth than the man who practices to reach the truth. A man who practices truth becomes impure, unchaste. January 15, 1971 Glossary Sannyasi recluse, hermit, one who has renounced Purusarthas purpose of existence Dharma that which holds all together Artha object of search (worldly) Kama sensory fulfilment Moksa freedom Dattatreya God's name (with three faces) Yoga Vasistha a book by sage Vasistha on yoga Nirodha stopping, ending Desika a teacher, a disciple Guru guide through darkness Sishya disciple who is interested in learning Sadhana the process of attainment Brahmin a caste, one who meditates on wholeness Adhikari deserving candidate Sattva purity, "that which is" Rajas energy in manifestation Tamas darkness, ignorance Upasanas learning with another who knows Asanas a posture, a meditative posture ======== end ========== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 97 9:07:08 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Tillett Message-ID: <199706241307.JAA28575@leo.vsla.edu> Alan, where did you hear that Tillett was dead? I saw him in 1995, and he's still on the list of Theosophical History Foundation board members. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:41:18 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Theos-World Any theosophists in Toronto, Ontario? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970624134118.00cec79c@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is a msg from Don looking for info. Please respond to him directly. ........doss >Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:15:24 GMT >From: Rodolfo Don >Subject: Theos-World Any theosophists in Toronto, Ontario? >Sender: owner-theos-talk@proteus.imagiware.com > >Hello everybody... > >I'm interested in finding out if there are any theosophists who are >subscribed to this list who live in Toronto, Canada. Also, if somebody >knows of any study group or lodge that still meets in Toronto. > >Thanks for your help, > >Rudy Don > > >web: http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/MyPage.html > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:17:03 -0700 (MST) From: blafoun@azstarnet.com (Graye/Caldwell) Subject: Tillett is dead?? Message-ID: <199706241617.JAA25479@mailhost.azstarnet.com> Alan B. wrote: > I had a little (all too little) contact >with Tillet (~The Elder Brother~ man) before he died, and there was no >dount that his book would have contained much more explicit material had >not some of his sources chickened out at the last minute Am I reading this right? Is Tillett dead? When and how did he die? Daniel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:40:21 EDT From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Human Solidarity (Brotherhood)- no ism's Message-ID: <19970624.093857.5455.0.trr@juno.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:38:34 -0400 (EDT) "Dr. A.M.Bain" writes: >In message , JOSEPH >PRICE writes >>It may take seven lifetimes to achieve the human solidarity we all >>crave and are willing to sacrifice for in such twisted ways as the >>kamikazes (terroritsts) we see all around us from all religion and >>ideologies. >>Namaste >>Keith Price > >Indeed - there seems to be a strong consensus that everyone being >armed to the teeth will help it along enormously. Some twisted logic >to me, however it is put. > >.. like we should beat our swords into handguns. > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > Is there any greater example of unselfishness than a soldier laying down his life for his country? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:32:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Chuck abuse Message-ID: <970624133249_1722050046@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-24 02:48:58 EDT, you write: >Drpsionic@aol.com writes >>It can also be highly hazardous to the health of the adult if the child >>decides to grease the basement stairs. >> >>Chuck the Heretic > >I heard about that - you recevoered yet? > >Alan %-) Fortunately I have never been afflicted with offspring, but the fact behind the joke is that in our culture a child that is struck will most likely look for a way to strike back, thus creating a cycle of family violence that often ends in murder. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:32:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: child abuse Message-ID: <970624133023_-858944517@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-23 23:17:24 EDT, you write: >And addressing a real possibility, a child may well agree to something >sexual being done to it *if it does not know what it is like to >experience the act concerned.* So the act is done with the consent and >will of the child, and NO HARM IS DONE? > >Get real. > >AB >--------- Preach it Alan. All sexual activity between children and adults is nonconsensual by definition. The Bishop was a scumbag. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 21:58:56 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Breaking down the door to enlightenment Message-ID: Is it to be wondered that so few reach the goal, that so many are called, but so few are chosen? Is not the reason for this explained in three lines on page 27 of the "Voice of the Silence"? These say that while "The first repeat in pride 'Behold, I know,' the last, they who in humbleness have garnered, low confess, 'thus have I heard' "; and hence, become the only "chosen." Lucifer, June 1890 "Mistaken Notions on the 'Secret Doctrine'" H.P. BLAVATSKY Keith: I am confused by this quotation. I would assume that those following the path must test everything with their own consciousness, thus saying like Jung: "I don't believe, I KNOW" This is the tradition of the gnostic who has experienced the spiritual for himself. To say humbly, this is what I have heard, and that makes one "chosen" to be a student of the Masters, seems strangely antiquated, outdated. Perhaps this quotation is taken out of context and she was being ironic or maybe not. Do the Masters really want a bunch of vegetarian brown noses? Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 97 20:04:35 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Goodbye Kym Message-ID: I'm leaving theos-l. I wasn't even going to say anything about it - but, due to vanity and a particular private post - I didn't want anyone to think my silence was some sort of acquiescence. So there. Kym Keith: I thought it was just getting good! I wouldn't let any one person make me do anything! And there is a song that says: "NEVER CAN SAY GOODBYE GIRL!" I was about to add that when people get in a corner they start shouting racing, sexim, homophobia, the way people used to call those people from the North DAMN YANKEES and expect that to cover all need for LOGICAL arguments. Anyway best wish Kym (no sarcasm) and I hope you return Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:17:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Tillett is dead?? Message-ID: In message <199706241617.JAA25479@mailhost.azstarnet.com>, Graye/Caldwell writes >Alan B. wrote: > >> I had a little (all too little) contact >>with Tillet (~The Elder Brother~ man) before he died, and there was no >>dount that his book would have contained much more explicit material had >>not some of his sources chickened out at the last minute > > >Am I reading this right? Is Tillett dead? When and how did he die? > >Daniel > Se my other post. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:14:17 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Chuck abuse Message-ID: In message <970624133249_1722050046@emout20.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Fortunately I have never been afflicted with offspring, but the fact behind >the joke is that in our culture a child that is struck will most likely look >for a way to strike back, thus creating a cycle of family violence that often >ends in murder. Isn't progress wonderful? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:22:02 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Human Solidarity (Brotherhood) ?? Message-ID: In message <19970624.093857.5455.0.trr@juno.com>, Tom Robertson writes >>Indeed - there seems to be a strong consensus that everyone being >>armed to the teeth will help it along enormously. Some twisted logic >>to me, however it is put. >> >>.. like we should beat our swords into handguns. >> >>Alan >>--------- >>THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >>http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >>E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk >> > >Is there any greater example of unselfishness than a soldier laying down >his life for his country? What has that got to do with civilians being armed to the teeth? I have read a great many of your posts, and I regret to say that your main interest is to be contentious - a long way from the "brotherhood" that theosophy is supposed to aspire to. AB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:16:40 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Tillett Message-ID: In message <199706241307.JAA28575@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >Alan, where did you hear that Tillett was dead? I saw him in >1995, and he's still on the list of Theosophical History >Foundation board members. > >Cheers, >Paul Hmmm - I heard it from a usually very reliable source late last year (1996) - but I guess I could be wrong. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:22:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: child abuse Message-ID: In message <970624133023_-858944517@emout09.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-06-23 23:17:24 EDT, you write: > >>And addressing a real possibility, a child may well agree to something >>sexual being done to it *if it does not know what it is like to >>experience the act concerned.* So the act is done with the consent and >>will of the child, and NO HARM IS DONE? >> >>Get real. >> >>AB >>--------- > >Preach it Alan. All sexual activity between children and adults is >nonconsensual by definition. > >The Bishop was a scumbag. > >Chuck the Heretic AMEN Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:24:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Breaking down the door to enlightenment Message-ID: <2pX8DZAvUGszEww+@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Do the Masters really want a bunch of vegetarian brown noses? Answers should be double-spaced on one side of the screen only. The Masters. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:20:57 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: <33B08089.1B11@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > Hi > Does anyone know much about the DeMolay Fraternal Organization? Is is > similar to Masonry? I heard that many prominent leaders in the country are > members. Masons, Jr. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:30:48 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: <33B082D8.639B@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > >I was a Demolay member...it is as a junior Mason order might be and is > >sponsored by the Masons...general principles are the same... > > > >Shanti, > >Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. > > thanks for the info. Do DeMolay admit girls (women)? No; for girls (not women) there is the "Rainbow Girls". There is a G.L.E. Masonic organization for women, but only women who are the property of male G.L.E. Masons. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:59:00 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970625035900.00ead264@mail.eden.com> At 10:21 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >> Hi >> Does anyone know much about the DeMolay Fraternal Organization? Is is >> similar to Masonry? I heard that many prominent leaders in the country are >> members. > > Masons, Jr. > > Bart Lidofsky > Thanks. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:59:36 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970625035936.00e73858@mail.eden.com> At 10:31 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> >I was a Demolay member...it is as a junior Mason order might be and is >> >sponsored by the Masons...general principles are the same... >> > >> >Shanti, >> >Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. >> >> thanks for the info. Do DeMolay admit girls (women)? > > No; for girls (not women) there is the "Rainbow Girls". There is a >G.L.E. Masonic organization for women, but only women who are the >property of male G.L.E. Masons. > > Bart Lidofsky > Thanks. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 22:50:58 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: A Theosophical Leader Speaks Out Message-ID: <199706250550.WAA00812@palrel1.hp.com> I'm just returning to my mountain of e-mail since leaving for a conference. ramadoss@eden.com quoted HPB: [snip] > ...if we will but unite and work as one mind, one heart. The Masters > require only that each shall do his best, and, above all, that each shall > strive in reality to feel himself one with his fellow- workers. It is not a > dull agreement on intellectual questions, or an impossible unanimity as to > all details of work, that is needed; but a true, hearty, earnest devotion to > our cause which will lead each to help his brother to the utmost of his > power to work for that cause, whether or not we agree as to the exact method > of carrying on that work. The only man who is absolutely wrong in his method > is the one who does nothing; each can and should cooperate with all and all > with each in a large-hearted spirit of comradeship to forward the work of > bringing Theosophy home to every man and woman in the country. Thanks again, Doss, for your posts. The ideas presented above are certainly important. I know from sad experience that well meaning groups are torn apart by debates about "exact method". Such debates can degenerate into pure and pointless power plays - even in advanced students of the spiritual life. (See HSO). More than once have I seen cliques develop - agreeing at first on a common enemy, then ending up at each other's throats. People can agree with their minds but not necessarily agree with their hearts. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:18:36 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: A Theosophical Leader Speaks Out Message-ID: <33B11AAC.7A82@eden.com> Titus Roth wrote: > > I'm just returning to my mountain of e-mail since leaving for a conference. > > ramadoss@eden.com quoted HPB: > > [snip] > > > ...if we will but unite and work as one mind, one heart. The Masters > > require only that each shall do his best, and, above all, that each shall > > strive in reality to feel himself one with his fellow- workers. It is not a > > dull agreement on intellectual questions, or an impossible unanimity as to > > all details of work, that is needed; but a true, hearty, earnest devotion to > > our cause which will lead each to help his brother to the utmost of his > > power to work for that cause, whether or not we agree as to the exact method > > of carrying on that work. The only man who is absolutely wrong in his method > > is the one who does nothing; each can and should cooperate with all and all > > with each in a large-hearted spirit of comradeship to forward the work of > > bringing Theosophy home to every man and woman in the country. > > Thanks again, Doss, for your posts. The ideas presented above are certainly > important. I know from sad experience that well meaning groups are torn apart > by debates about "exact method". Such debates can degenerate into pure and > pointless power plays - even in advanced students of the spiritual life. (See > HSO). > > More than once have I seen cliques develop - agreeing at first on a common > enemy, then ending up at each other's throats. People can agree with their > minds but not necessarily agree with their hearts. I agree. Two things struck me in this powerful statement of HPB. First is her emphasis on doing something. Action is needed no matter what it is. Secondly, there have been a lot of discussion whether we can make Theosophy reach the masses. See what HPB says. She is emphatic in bringing Theosophy home to every man and woman, not just only those who are highly intellectual and learned and scholarly. I have always felt that this aspect is critical to the long term effect on helping the Humanity. May be we will get some more ideas from others in the list. Let us all work together with the common objective. thanks again. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:04:17 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: Einars homepage Message-ID: <01BC8179.1D81C100@rvik-ppp-ps-14.ismennt.is> Hi folks. I have just added some articles to my homepage: http://rvik.ismennt.is/~annasb/english/english.html Please drop in at convenience - more to come. Einar from Iceland From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:52:45 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theos-World A suggestion Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970625175245.00d094c8@mail.eden.com> At 11:57 AM 6/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >for Estrella, > >There have been for many years scholarships available from several >Theosophical >Organizations to those Theosophpical Students who are really needy; of course >as I understand this must be a learning experience.. > >The THeosophical Society in America , Wheaton, Il and Adyar Headquarters >have such available. Certainly, it is wise to have the interested party and >student begin searching for such options well in advance of any event. > >Where in the world would someone have the idea that rich Theosophists >should do this. The average Theosophist is of average income. Furthermore, >those of means who might be considered "rich" have already contiributed >for such scholarships and funding and do so still to this day. > >Perhaps it would be wise of major Theosophical Societies print a guide of >services available to the student who needs financial help? > > SAGESCROWN > > > > A very good suggestion. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:45:12 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Theosophy & Political Values Message-ID: <33B158E2.1176@earthlink.net> I suppose the distinction to be drawn between political/gov't approaches has to do whether one thinks a better world can be forced or "evolved via leadership." All of the history I know shows that coercive societal "improvements" are inevitably stagnatory...and as mentioned freedom (particularly in economics today), etc. provide the milieu in which theosophical ideas can take root and grow with healing rapidity... (see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) Cheers, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 18:48:49 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: non-taxation Message-ID: <199706260007.UAA15370@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Patrick says > In natural (i.e., non-coercive, non tax >based) systems people DO what is needed... Patrick, That's a very idealistic way of working things. I do believe that the communists tried this in Russia. What happened was that everyone did as little work as they could get away with, and tried to get as much goods & services and etc as they possibly could. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:13:57 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Dr. Jocelyn Elders Message-ID: <199706260032.UAA01138@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Lynn, I'm sorry you don't like this lady. I can see that if you happen not to agree with her very outspoken opinions, you would be upset about what she wanted to do. I happen to think that everything she said was right on. She was very forceful about it, but I didn't think she was wrong. I was sorry to see her go. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 19:18:03 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: NEWS !!! Message-ID: <33b7c054.24826129@mail.earthlink.net> I just got some news about the Internet Censorship issue -- in case anyone is interested. [:->>>From: stockmaster@grill.sk.ca (Danny Deadlock) [:->>>Subject: ** Canada StockALERT ** [:->>> [:->>>We rarely to an update during the day but when we do it is VERY important to [:->>>many people in this group so if you are not interested in this equity [:->>>please bear with us as many others are. [:->>> [:->>>U.S SUPREME COURT RULED MOMENTS AGO (approx. 8:30am CST) THAT THE [:->>>COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL !! [:->>> [:->>>This means one thing - the Internet CANNOT come under censorship law and [:->>>the Clinton Administration must now push ahead with plans to allow [:->>>technology to do the work (ie: Net Nanny). Clinton has stated in the past [:->>>he would do everything in his power to make this technology available to [:->>>the U.S. people and on [:->>>July 1 we should see what this entails. [:->>> [:->>>Implications for Net Nanny (NNS:VSE) are excellent and come immediately on [:->>>the heals of the Microsoft Association last Night. [:->>> [:->>>All the major media across North America should pick up on this story [:->>>commencing today and will probably continue right up until the 1st. We [:->>>expect Gordon Ross of Net Nanny (expert in this field) to gain some MAJOR [:->>>media exposure. [:->>> [:->>>Danny Deadlock [:->>>Editor - Canada StockALERT [:->>> [:->>>DISCLAIMER: ___ {~ ~} ~~~~~~~~~~oo0~(_)~0oo~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We are not all crazy -- It is all in our heads, You have to seek your own salvation -- In the end the final truth is between the lines, The narrow path gets harder to find -- It is not what is done but rather a state of mind. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j.}`-`{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "On this Path effort never goes to waste and never a failure" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:22:57 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: A Theosophical Leader Speaks Out Message-ID: <33B1C471.6727@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > I agree. Two things struck me in this powerful statement of HPB. First > is her emphasis on doing something. Action is needed no matter what it > is. There is an old Jewish story: A poor man comes to a rabbi, and says, "Rabbi, I have very little money, I have 7 children, and every year my wife blesses me with yet another child. What should I do?" The rabbi thought for a moment, and replied, "Take my advice, and do nothing!" Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 18:31:01 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: Dr. Jocelyn Elders Message-ID: <33B1A996.275A@earthlink.net> I understand her thoughts...but they are premised on material identification and lower astral desire... ..the right solutions evoke the higher subplanes of virtues and freedom (something of which she is not yet able to be unaware of) Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 18:40:15 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: non-taxation Message-ID: <33B1ABBF.51ED@earthlink.net> > > In natural (i.e., non-coercive, non tax > >based) systems people DO what is needed... Yes this works :) > I do believe that the communists tried this in Russia. No they didn't...they denied basic freedoms to the vast majority (really all). In USSR they taxed and coercively controlled all facets of society (something the liberals in the U.S. would do if they could...) ...and indeed one could be imprisoned there for even speaking about theosophy... > What happened was > that everyone did as little work as they could get away with, and tried to > get as much goods & services and etc as they possibly could. Yes...this is what happens as taxation increases!!! (see http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html ) Love, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 01:46:59 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: The choice of TS-agenda. Message-ID: <01BC81D2.F5A0C280@rvik-ppp-ps-1.ismennt.is> Hi there. We have just started our TS Summer School here in Iceland, and at the inauguration this evening the new National President Mr. Jon Arnalds discussed some points about the TS and its work. Maybe it could be interesting for you to get a glimpse of the attitude that lead the section to its peak of over 600 members out of a quarter of a million inhabitants. This is of course just a glimpse, but there is more if you contact me for further material. Let's then look at some points by Sigvaldi Hjalmarsson: -------------------------------------------- The choice of TS-agenda. The Theosophical Society is unique in the sense that its foundation is based on questions, not answers. Those who join it unite on seeking, not something that already has been found. When the Society is thus defined it happens that attentive people ask: How is it possible to ensure that the work in such a society is incisive and not fumbling, how does one choose agenda for meetings and study? One may point out that a question tells much more about interest than does answers. A question is always initiative or aggressive. An answer is something finished. Question initiates seeking, answer leads mostly towards dullness. In one way the above question is justifyable, namely in that people are not used to think about activity which is not committing or restraining, but totally free. Most societies or groups attract people because they think they know, not because they stand utterly perplexed against powerful questions. At least this is a fact in most political parties and religious groups. But choosing agenda for the Theosophical Society is not a complicated matter. The Objects are the road-signs. To study and compare religions, philosphies, and sciences, and investigate unexplained laws of nature and latent powers in man. If we then mix the first object on brotherhood of man (woman) with this, then the agenda becomes truly visible. Everything that concerns the communion of mankind between themselves, and towards another life-forms, is looked upon as important matter for investigation, especially because such communion seems to be so extremely difficult... Perhaps it is not enough to study the human subject theoretically but also how it can be applied in real life. Perhaps it is not enough to try to find new answers to old questions, perhaps one has to make an effort to find totally new questions. That is where we turn to the mystical and esoteric subjects. They are exactly about trying to find totally new questions, to seek in totally new places, different directions, another dimensions of experiences. The mystical teachings throughout the ages have been an important part in the studies of Theosophical members. One asks if man necessarily has to be as he is, Isn't it possible to change man, since it seems to be impossible to change his conditions? There are men and women that seem to be different, not only better than most people, but much nobler than us, because they experience the self-awareness "to be" , much clearer and in fact totally different from our experience. Human problems don't seem to affect them and it is like the totality of all human experiences are active through them. (From Mundilf.2.2.) Love and light, Einar Adalsteinsson From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 00:20:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: In message <33B082D8.639B@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >> thanks for the info. Do DeMolay admit girls (women)? > > No; for girls (not women) there is the "Rainbow Girls". There is a >G.L.E. Masonic organization for women, but only women who are the >property of male G.L.E. Masons. > > Bart Lidofsky PROPERTY ????????????????????? Good grief. AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:56:43 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: DeMolay Message-ID: <33B258FB.412C@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <33B082D8.639B@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >> thanks for the info. Do DeMolay admit girls (women)? > > > > No; for girls (not women) there is the "Rainbow Girls". There is a > >G.L.E. Masonic organization for women, but only women who are the > >property of male G.L.E. Masons. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > PROPERTY ????????????????????? > > Good grief. I stand by my statement. Note that, although there is ample evidence that women were once allowed to be G.L.E. Masons, at the time that G.L.E. rules were oficially structured was a time when women were not considered to be full-fledged human beings in England, but rather as extensions of their fathers or husbands (a situation that continued into the late 19th century; note, for example, the case of Anna Kingsford, whose husband married her for the sole purpose of allowing her to perform actions which she could only legally perform with the permission of her husband. The groups excluded from Masonry (senile people, young children, insane people, atheists, etc.) all have one thing in common: They cannot be expected to be able to take a valid oath to the Grand Architect of the Universe, because of a lack of ability to understand. Women were included in that group, because they were not considered capable of even handling their own lives; they needed a man to control/look out for them. While any young woman may join the Rainbow Girls, once they are adults, the only female Masonic organization they may join is the Order of the Eastern Star (I THINK that's the name), which is limited to women who are daughters, sisters, or wives of Masons; in other words, women who by the standards of the founding of the G.L.E., are the property of Masons. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:52:02 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Year 2000 software issue Message-ID: <33B28FB6.B0AC2AF8@earthlink.net> from : >In the very old story of Chicken Little, or perhaps the Boy Who Cried Wolf, >the heroes came to realize too late that the most precious thing in the world >is credibility. Once you lose that, people never believe in you again. > ... >If all this (!) about the computer industry falling apart in eighteen months >were really true, don't you think for example that we could all be sued for >gross and inexcusable professional negligence? If it were true, you bet we >could. 1. There is going to be a HUGE problem in 922 days. I know it, anyone who has crafted production code and debugged enterprise systems knows it. The debate is over. It was on the cover of Newsweek a couple weeks ago. Yes, there were a few letters from the clueless wondering about the seriousness of the problem. Say this statement to yourself, "Anyone, everyone who has crafted production code and debugged enterprise systems knows that there will be a HUGE problem." If you haven't done this kind of work, please do not attempt to understand the problem. Accept that it is happening and stay out of the way of those who can work on it. 2. There isn't enough time, programmers, money, hardware, to fix and test all the systems in 922 days. It could be done in 10-15 years but we don't have the time. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 16:40:29 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: CDA Illegal Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970626214029.00699e78@mail.eden.com> US Supreme Court just ruled the Communications Decency Act unconstitutional. Internet is the most far reaching innovation since printing. Printing made a lot of stuff accessible to the masses. Now in that same direction, Internet is doing it in a much larger and cheaper scale. Internet is going to kill the traditional censor and control based organizational structures which will be a shock to many organizations which have for centuries have excercised control using censorship and other means of control over the masses with whom they dealt with. We are going to see that crumble and organizational leaders scrambling to find ways to control information flow within the context of Internet medium. They will fail due to the inbuilt nature of Internet. Let us all watch for the developments. Long live Internet. We will have an unique opportunity to take Theosophy to every man, woman and child in the entire world at very little financial cost. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 16:30:14 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: NEWS !!! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970626213014.00d3f564@mail.eden.com> At 03:25 PM 6/26/97 -0400, you wrote: > I just got some news about the Internet Censorship issue -- in case anyone >is interested. > >[:->>>From: stockmaster@grill.sk.ca (Danny Deadlock) >[:->>>Subject: ** Canada StockALERT ** >[:->>> >[:->>>We rarely to an update during the day but when we do it is VERY important to >[:->>>many people in this group so if you are not interested in this equity >[:->>>please bear with us as many others are. >[:->>> >[:->>>U.S SUPREME COURT RULED MOMENTS AGO (approx. 8:30am CST) THAT THE >[:->>>COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL !! >[:->>> >[:->>>This means one thing - the Internet CANNOT come under censorship law and >[:->>>the Clinton Administration must now push ahead with plans to allow >[:->>>technology to do the work (ie: Net Nanny). Clinton has stated in the past >[:->>>he would do everything in his power to make this technology available to >[:->>>the U.S. people and on >[:->>>July 1 we should see what this entails. >[:->>> >[:->>>Implications for Net Nanny (NNS:VSE) are excellent and come immediately on >[:->>>the heals of the Microsoft Association last Night. >[:->>> >[:->>>All the major media across North America should pick up on this story >[:->>>commencing today and will probably continue right up until the 1st. We >[:->>>expect Gordon Ross of Net Nanny (expert in this field) to gain some MAJOR >[:->>>media exposure. >[:->>> >[:->>>Danny Deadlock >[:->>>Editor - Canada StockALERT >[:->>> >[:->>>DISCLAIMER: > ___ > {~ ~} >~~~~~~~~~~oo0~(_)~0oo~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >We are not all crazy -- >It is all in our heads, >You have to seek your own salvation -- >In the end the final truth is between the lines, >The narrow path gets harder to find -- >It is not what is done but rather a state of mind. > >Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j.}`-`{ > http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html >"On this Path effort never goes to waste and never a failure" > Thanks for the post. Censorship and control is the inbuilt human tendency at its worst. Internet is perhaps the greatest techological advance in human history after printing was invented. We are going to see control based organizational structures are going to collapse and many of those leaders who have spent their lifetime enjoying control are going to get heart attacks and may be will suffer depression, IMHO. Let us all have fun watching all of this unfold. Long live Internet!!! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:02:36 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Announcement Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970627060236.00719730@mail.eden.com> At 01:38 AM 6/27/97 GMT, you wrote: >I have been working in the web, creating web pages mainly on theosophy for >over 2 years. One of those pages is a page dedicated to "The Theosophical >Society". The Society founded by the Founders. That page has been in the >web for almost 2 years and nobody has complained about it, nobody until >now! The Administration from Wheaton requested from me to put a disclaimer >on that page. According to John, that page "is not connected with the >Society". It doesn't matter that I have been an active member for 30 years. >Still, according to him, my page on the Theosophical Society is "not >connected to the Theosophical Society". > >Anyway, there is a disclaimer already on my TS page for everybody to see. > >This is the URL: http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TS.html > >Happy surfing! > >Rudy Don > Hi Rudy: I visited your URL and you have done a wonderful job. I also appreciate the links you have provided to various Theosophical Societies. IMHO, one needs to use a lot of imagination to misunderstand your URL has anything to do with TSA. Godspeed and keep up the good work. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:06:41 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Announcement Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970627060641.00d0adb0@mail.eden.com> At 01:21 AM 6/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >Rodofo Don... > >Let me apologize for anyone who inflicted pain upon >your efforts. How sad anyone could be so >insensitive. > >May, I recommend that you focus upon the work >you are doing and not what others think of it > >Such as this happens every so many years just to >remind enthusiasts that they do not belong to >the royal house of Theosophy which could >not be farther from the Truth. > >I am not familar with your page, no doubt you >are devoted to the spreading the message of >Theosophy. > >My suggestion...chuckle and just continue with >your efforts. > >One day Isis really will be unveiled! You can >be certain of THAT! > > for Judith Christie, by Sage Well said. royal houses have been shut down. look where all the Royalties are. it is the days of democracy where the common man/woman is the King/Queen. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:08:27 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: URL Matter Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970627060827.00d0d2a4@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting post I saw. ....doss > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 01:38:23 GMT > From: Rodolfo Don > Subject: Theos-World Announcement I have been working in the web, creating web pages mainly on theosophy for over 2 years. One of those pages is a page dedicated to "The Theosophical Society". The Society founded by the Founders. That page has been in the web for almost 2 years and nobody has complained about it, nobody until now! The Administration from Wheaton requested from me to put a disclaimer on that page. According to John, that page "is not connected with the Society". It doesn't matter that I have been an active member for 30 years. Still, according to him, my page on the Theosophical Society is "not connected to the Theosophical Society". Anyway, there is a disclaimer already on my TS page for everybody to see. This is the URL: http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TS.html Happy surfing! Rudy Don -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:36:30 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Announcement Message-ID: <33B3B3CE.6F95@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > IMHO, one needs to use a lot of imagination to misunderstand your URL has > anything to do with TSA. You mean his information on the organization, the facilities, joining, getting information from the TSA, courses given, etc. don't appear to have ANYTHING to do with the TSA? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 08:37:47 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: URL Matter Message-ID: <33B3B41B.2C5@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > Here is an interesting post I saw. ....doss And I am certain that you had permission to place it on a list where the original author may not be present to defend himself. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:57:01 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: cwl Message-ID: <199706272015.QAA13186@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear guys, I'm really getting sick & tired of this crap. If you don't have anything better to talk about, I'll start confining myself to ts-l, which has just started, and where they're talking Theosophy instead of smut. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:00:00 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: rainbow girls Message-ID: <199706272018.QAA15061@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >but only women who are the >>**property** of male G.L.E. Masons. >> >> Bart Lidofsky How many women do you own, padner? How much? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:14:38 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: karma Message-ID: <199706272033.QAA24077@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Nathan, I know this to be a theosphical view, but I don't like to accept it. For me this is too predetermined. And since I'm allowed to accept or reject theosophical dicta, I'd rather choose to believe in the kind of Karma which gives me a bit more leeway of control over my own destiny. If I felt I had no control at all over my destiny, I'd give up. I need to say again that I choose beliefs which I find dynamic. (They also need to be moral.) If they're not dynamic, I discard them. I need to be able to improve myself ... not stand still, go backwards, nor fight against insurmountable odds all the time. I suppose it has something to do with that I can't see beyond the movement of time. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:40:32 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: karma Message-ID: <33B42540.28C3@eden.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > Nathan, I know this to be a theosphical view, but I don't like to accept it. > For me this is too predetermined. And since I'm allowed to accept or reject > theosophical dicta, I'd rather choose to believe in the kind of Karma which > gives me a bit more leeway of control over my own destiny. If I felt I had > no control at all over my destiny, I'd give up. Well said. When I look around myself and around my friends and acquaitances, I find that much of the problems that myself and many others are in, can be traced to causes directly created by ourselves. Of course there are problems over which we may never have control over such as ill health. So I strongly feel that there is much in life over which we have full control -- at least power to avoid certain problems. In my business, many times I run into situations in which I will ask my clients to think if the need the additional complications that are bound to come up if certain decisions are taken in a certain way. This has made many of the think twice before committing themselves. My motto has always been to simplify life if we can. It has worked time and again. Peace MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 14:33:51 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Re: karma Message-ID: <33B4150A.C4BBC825@earthlink.net> I agree whole-heartedly...Karma is changeable and dynamic according to will and desire as these align with spiritual evolution. Shanti, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html *** (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 15:42:31 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: URL Matter - Bart Message-ID: <33B433C7.53C7@micron.net> Bart wrote: > And I am certain that you had permission to place it on a list where > the original author may not be present to defend himself. Although nothing makes me more tingly inside than someone who is defending the rights of those who are unable to speak for themselves, I fail to see why you chose this time to show your kinder, gentler side. Isn't all e-mail posted to public lists, in essence, public property? And the gentleman did label his post "Announcement" which seems to imply he would be happy to spread the message. One can find through search engines other people's e-mail - what laws are there that govern what people do with these messages? Or are you arguing, perhaps, the moral side of this issue? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 02:13:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: UGLY Message-ID: <2EQraAAJPxszEwik@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33B258FB.412C@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes > While any young woman may join the Rainbow Girls, once they are adults, >the only female Masonic organization they may join is the Order of the >Eastern Star (I THINK that's the name), which is limited to women who >are daughters, sisters, or wives of Masons; in other words, women who by >the standards of the founding of the G.L.E., are the property of Masons. It would have been better, I think, had you made this clear in your original post! As it read it seemed as though you subscribed to this extreme position. Here in the UK Grand Lodge masons use the abbreviation U.G.L.E. (United Grand Lodge of England) and pronounce it as an acronym: "UGLY" ..... many a true word is spoken in jest :-) AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:12:41 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Welcome! Message-ID: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL welcomes Jon Sharp! E-mail welcomes to j.sharp@sys.uea.ac.uk TI members wanting an updated membership list please e-mail me. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:28:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: cwl Message-ID: In message <199706272015.QAA13186@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes > Dear guys, > >I'm really getting sick & tired of this crap. If you don't have anything >better to talk about, I'll start confining myself to ts-l, which has just >started, and where they're talking Theosophy instead of smut. > >Liesel > Dear Liesel, The fact is that as long as people continue to present CWL as some kind of saint, there will be people (like myself) who will provide the evidence which makes it clear he was not. So long as he is presented as some kind of infallible clairvoyant, I and others will present the evidence that he was not. Why? There is no religion higher than truth. Sorry :-( Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:50:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Dr. Jocelyn Elders Message-ID: <970627195051_25284881@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-26 03:05:53 EDT, you write: > Dear Lynn, > > I'm sorry you don't like this lady. I can see that if you happen not to > agree with her very outspoken opinions, you would be upset about what she > wanted to do. I happen to think that everything she said was right on. She > was very forceful about it, but I didn't think she was wrong. I was sorry to > see her go. > > Liesel Hi Liesel, It wasn't that I didn't like Dr. Elders herself. In fact, I really agreed with her about the legalization of drugs issue and was thrilled that someone in government FINALLY spoke out in favor of ending prohibition. On the masterbation thing, it was more like a thing of whether that subject should be part of the curriculum where students are a captive audience as they are in the public schools. Some parents (though not me personally) could strongly object to that being taught in the schools and that's why I objected to her advocating that. (Also, totally aside from Dr. Elders herself, there's the whole issue of whether we *need* a Surgeon General in the first place.) Also, out of the various folks in the Clinton government, I liked her the most (though I know that's not saying much). Folks who I would have much rather seen fired than Dr. Elders were that socialist we have as the Secretary of Labor or former FDA head Kessler. But the *real* reason why I posted that message was that you added an editorial comment about Dr. Elders to a line containing my own remarks without indicating that it was *your* opinion. *That* was what I was truly objecting to in my first paragraph, not that you said she was great. It was in effect, putting words in my mouth that I hadn't said--misquoting me. Anyone who joined the list after I made the original post who read your message would erroneously have believed that I was the one who made the remarks that *you* added. Do you see what I'm getting at? People on the Internet often get upset when remarks aren't attributed properly or are misquoted. If you reread my original post (if you still have it), you'll see that I wasn't at all making a general attack on Dr. Elders or expressing a dislike for her. To express disagreement with one position that a person takes is not at all the same as disliking the person--at least not in my opinion. I'm disagreeing with you, for example, at this moment but that doesn't mean at all that I dislike you. (Though I *do* wish you'd apologize for misquoting me so I won't continue feeling so annoyed at you for misquoting me.) In the post (preceding the one where you misquoted me) where I referred to CWL as being the TS's Jocelyn Elders, that was purely a wisecrack meant for laughs only. I'd also like to explain that I wouldn't have even made a wisecrack that sort of compared CWL to Jocelyn Elders had I first seen the post that suggested he was doing ...ahem... more than teaching masturbation using perhaps a chalkboard or something. If those charges were indeed true, they were extremely serious and that joke would have been totally unfair to Dr. Elders had I known at the time. (Not that I know now if the charges were true, as distressing as they are... ) Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 22:34:48 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: URL Matter - Bart Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970628033448.00e2b7a8@mail.eden.com> At 05:40 PM 6/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >Bart wrote: > >> And I am certain that you had permission to place it on a list where >> the original author may not be present to defend himself. > > >Although nothing makes me more tingly inside than someone who is >defending the rights of those who are unable to speak for themselves, I >fail to see why you chose this time to show your kinder, gentler side. > >Isn't all e-mail posted to public lists, in essence, public property? >And the gentleman did label his post "Announcement" which seems to imply >he would be happy to spread the message. One can find through search >engines other people's e-mail - what laws are there that govern what >people do with these messages? > >Or are you arguing, perhaps, the moral side of this issue? > > >Kym > Kym, you are very perceptive. "Announcement" says it all. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:11:50 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: URL Matter - Bart Message-ID: <33B48F06.C96@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > Isn't all e-mail posted to public lists, in essence, public property? A) These lists are not public and, B) No. > And the gentleman did label his post "Announcement" which seems to imply > he would be happy to spread the message. Not necessarily. > One can find through search > engines other people's e-mail - what laws are there that govern what > people do with these messages? Actually, you can't find e-mail through search engines, and copyright laws govern what one can do with other peope's messages. > Or are you arguing, perhaps, the moral side of this issue? Well, that too. Actually, I have been arguing with the author of the message in the list in which he originally posted. But I have been the victim of having been quoted out of context in an area I had never visited, been roundly torn apart, and, when I finally did show up, I found a lynch mob waiting for me. I did not like it then, and I would not like to see it happen to anybody else. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:14:12 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: UGLY Message-ID: <33B48F94.AE3@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > It would have been better, I think, had you made this clear in your > original post! As it read it seemed as though you subscribed to this > extreme position. Considering my extremely strong stance in the past here about equality of all humans, I didn't realize that anybody would mistake my statement of the position for an endorsement thereof. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 02:50:43 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: cwl Message-ID: <199706280809.EAA17637@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 00:28:27 +0100 >From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" >Subject: Re: cwl >Message-ID: > >In message <199706272015.QAA13186@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. >deutsch" writes >> Dear guys, >> >>I'm really getting sick & tired of this crap. If you don't have anything >>better to talk about, I'll start confining myself to ts-l, which has just >>started, and where they're talking Theosophy instead of smut. >> >>Liesel >> >Dear Liesel, > >The fact is that as long as people continue to present CWL as some kind >of saint, there will be people (like myself) who will provide the >evidence which makes it clear he was not. So long as he is presented as >some kind of infallible clairvoyant, I and others will present the >evidence that he was not. Why? > >There is no religion higher than truth. > >Sorry :-( > >Alan >--------- Dear ASlan, Ta ta, my dear, and all that rot lfd From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:00:15 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: to Lynn re Jocelyn Elders Message-ID: <199706280818.EAA23491@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Lynn, I didn't in the least want to imply that you didn't like Jocelyn Elders. I thought you did. So I don't think in the least I need to apologize. Nobody has apologized to me yet for dragging CWL through the mud repeatedly. RE teaching masturbation in the schools. I think you're right that it shouldn't be mandatory. It's one of those areas that's really private, even though teaching it is meant to prevent teen mothers, which is a very public issue, involving lots of tax money. I think it should be a choice the parents and kids make. I'm including it at the choice of the kids too, because some parents don't give a hoot one way or the other, and some kids might, and I'm with CWL, if they masturbate they'll not make babies. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 11:56:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: cwl Message-ID: <970628115602_590922263@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-28 05:44:28 EDT, you write: >The fact is that as long as people continue to present CWL as some kind >of saint, there will be people (like myself) who will provide the >evidence which makes it clear he was not. So long as he is presented as >some kind of infallible clairvoyant, I and others will present the >evidence that he was not. Why? > >There is no religion higher than truth. > >Sorry :-( > >Alan And Bishops have better things to do than ogle the choirboys. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 09:39:33 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: y2k & Astrology info Message-ID: <33B521DD.5A7781FE@earthlink.net> Astrology (2000 year) May info posts have focussed on the alignments of the month, and interestingly the y2k millenium software issue (which will likely end banking) will be flowing with these alignments...see http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/search.cfm Shanti, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html *** (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:56:04 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Suggestions Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970628185604.00759130@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is a msg which I think has some very good suggestion. Please feel free to comment. > From: SAGESCROWN@aol.com > Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 11:10:08 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: Theos-World Announcement( my suggestion) as i was saying Rudy, THE BLAVATKY NET links to all known organized Theosophical groups. You may want to, (and this is something that I would personally do) just have one visible link to the Blavatskyk Net. Next, it is true your page resembles an official Theosophical Page.You do not have to publish the disclaimer John Algeo suggested...however again this is what I would personal do... say This is an independant page, by an independent Theosophist. There is no reason to go to such lengths to release the TS from who knows what? Stating that it is an independant page should be enough. Otherwise the Theosophical Society in America might have to list a blanket disclaimer regarding all private and independant Theosophical endeavors including net pages. I personally feel such an action would destroy the TSA and all Theosophical Organizations in the world. The idea here is to remember duplication is a waste of time, energy and effort. It might be a good time for you to redesign your Web Pages to enhance the work already being done by others. Another idea is design them to suit yourself and the work that you are doing as which has always been my 'greatest claim to fame.' Ha Ha Ha. Try to immagine what HPB and her Adept Teachers would want you to do. Certainly, they would not want dupliation of already existing efforts by TSA and any other group. Rudy..do you have any idea just how much Theosophy and Theosophical Material is on line? Another truly good idea would be for you to build a site for all independent Theosophists and all independent to find a home; list them and bring them all to one location on the net. Jusst a few ideas to take you into the 21st Century. _________________________ Now as for The Theosophical Societiy in America. This will be a lalapalooza! You have a big job ahead of you as I far as I can see. It shouild be your major activity to fulfill the dream of HPB and her teachers, Universal Brotherhood, which is more then lip service. Yes, it is my dream too to see all Theosophical Orgainzations under one roof, canopy or dome. Maybe the impossible dream, eh! Well perhaps so. However, do have an an opening on the interernet to do just this. Why couldn't the TS America build a web site to house all Theosophical Groups and all Thesophical information and Teachings? It could be designated as such. Here is the door to TS America. Here is the door to ULT. Here is the door to .......each and everyone? Then within each door should be the lobby with information regarding each your group, From the lobby the searcher should then encounter the Hall of Learning. But the largest factor in the success of such an effort will be the joining and the cooperation of all groups. This could be named "The Globes of Theosophy or Global or Universal Cyberspace." Oh yes, it would be difficult for al Theosophical Groups would have the lay aside the personal principle to shoulder the the universal principle. This could be done quickly and easily. All of you are already on line, all you have to do is pull in together into one location. Theosophy and Theosophical Groups are scattered through the entire internet. There is no unity in in representation and what is out there is seeds blowing in the wind with no place to grow. This is an opportunity to be grasped right now. Had this been done before you all went on line this situation with Rudy Don would never have happened. Actually it is your fault that it did. Bart I think that you went a bit far in your explanatons as to what the danger to John Algeo might be. This entire situation has been given too much attention. Do not empower the event any further by overkill. John certainly knows better than this. My biggest complaint is that I see far to much duplication of effort on line already and very little unity amongst online Theosophical Groups. As we move toward the 21st Century I would like to see a complete, total 'unified respresntation of Theosophy.' It would seem this could be a reality at least on line. Finally, the independant groups of Theosophists have grown over the past 30 years. As you can all see they are not going away. It would seem that TS needs to build a bridge of cooperation and address this segment of Theosophical Groups instead of requesting disclaimers. It can be done, the keyword is "Try". These are my humble observations and suggestions. Actually these are valid possibilties. John Algeo, here is the opportunity that you had hoped for20 years ago! If anyone can do this, you can. Unification! Greetings of Divine Light and may that Divine Light blaze into every nook and cranny in every Theosophical group and in the minds of every Theosophist everywhere! Time to bring all together in the Eternal Now. Judith Christie, also known as Sage. - From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:14:48 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: <33B57EC8.3C85@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > Hi > Here is a msg which I think has some very good suggestion. Please feel free > to comment. In this message, there is an unflattering reference to something that I had said. Those who had not read the original will be automatically prejudiced, especially since the letter you quote clearly shows a misunderstanding of what I said (it was a "what if?" type question, on how the revelation of perfectly truthful information can have bad effects on a perfectly innocent person; I just used John Algeo's name in a f'rinstance sense). But the people here do not have the advantage of having read my original letter. Would you like it if I quoted a letter here that said, "since Doss has admitted to despoiling young goats in his last letter"? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 15:34:39 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: <33B5836F.235D@micron.net> Bart wrote: > Would you like it if I quoted a letter here that said, "since Doss has > admitted to despoiling young goats in his last letter"? DESPOILING YOUNG GOATS!!!! God, I love this list. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:12:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: UGLY Message-ID: In message <33B48F94.AE3@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> It would have been better, I think, had you made this clear in your >> original post! As it read it seemed as though you subscribed to this >> extreme position. > > Considering my extremely strong stance in the past here about equality >of all humans, I didn't realize that anybody would mistake my statement >of the position for an endorsement thereof. > > Bart Lidofsky Not all subscribers will have been on the list as long as you or I, and would not necessarily know of your strong stance. It is an unmoderated, open-to-anyone-who-finds-it forum. In any event I would regard your statement as at least a little tactless, viz. Liesel's comment! AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:20:49 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: cwl Message-ID: In message <199706280809.EAA17637@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >Dear ASlan, > >Ta ta, my dear, and all that rot lfd Now that really *is* sad. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:13:42 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: cwl Message-ID: In message <970628115602_590922263@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >And Bishops have better things to do than ogle the choirboys. > >Chuck the Heretic Really. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:18:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970628185604.00759130@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com quotes: >Finally, the independant groups of Theosophists have grown over the past 30 >years. As you can all see they are not going away. It would seem that >TS needs to build a bridge of cooperation and address this segment of >Theosophical Groups instead of requesting disclaimers. >It can be done, the keyword is "Try". > >These are my humble observations and suggestions. > >Actually these are valid possibilties. > >John Algeo, here is the opportunity that you had hoped for20 years ago! >If anyone can do this, you can. Unification! > >Greetings of Divine Light and may that Divine Light blaze into >every nook and cranny in every Theosophical group and in >the minds of every Theosophist everywhere! > >Time to bring all together in the Eternal Now. > > Judith Christie, also known as Sage. > Some of tried this approach with Theosophy International. My part in it got me thrown off my TS in England Lodge committee without notice, and in complete disobedience to the lodge's and the Society's own rules. Dream on ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 00:21:51 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: In message <33B5836F.235D@micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Bart wrote: > >> Would you like it if I quoted a letter here that said, "since Doss has >> admitted to despoiling young goats in his last letter"? > > >DESPOILING YOUNG GOATS!!!! God, I love this list. . . > >Kym Gets more theosophical every day. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 19:14:11 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: How and when to Fight Message-ID: <199706290214.TAA10398@palrel1.hp.com> The discussions of late have reminded me of a question I have often thought about: when one should fight for something he or she believes in and when should one work mediatively. Also how to fight when one feels that is the best course. My Sun in Leo in close quincunx to Pisces Moon gives me a schizophrenic view. Some contradictory thoughts and questions: 1) Sometimes evil must destroy evil. "Resist not evil (with evil)." Example: when two countries are warring, does a third have to step in as a humanitarian? The U.S., with Sun in sensitive Cancer, has repeatedly tried to intervene with disastrous results. 2) With the correct attitude, one can do outward battle but leave no karmic mark - as Krishna was trying to say to Arjuna. When America was in the midst of dissolution of the union, Lincoln opted for war. But a war as much as possible without hate. He also made plans for reparation to the vanquished. 3) The likelihood of effecting outer change is not really a factor in deciding whether to fight. I have fought for losing causes - and lost. But something remains. Inwardly the "victors" begin to think about their actions. Even a loss can turn into a victory - as Jesus's crucifixion showed. 4) I can sometimes disagree with a person with equanimity. But when I find myself hating them, painful honesty sometimes reveals that I have a hidden side like that person. I really am hating that quality in myself. Alternatively, I can be so insecure in my beliefs that I resent that person making me have to defend my beliefs. Jung's research on the Shadow shows that in every Christian is a Jew; in every Jew is a Christian; in every Democrat is a Republican; in every Republican is a Democrat; in every braggart is an insecure person; in every insecure person is someone so cocksure of himself; in every liberal is a conservative; in every conservative is a liberal. "Agree with thine adversary ..." 5) Examples of advanced initiates show varied approaches: Jesus overturned the money changers, but He accepted the crucifixion. HPB sometimes maintained a "silent contempt", at other times she resorted to law suits. There appears to be no cook-book solution for outer action, but inwardly one should strive for peace. Then one's actions are like tracing on water: they leave no karmic mark. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 18:37:25 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: I found, IMO, some positives and negatives to the unified theory. The positive, of course, is that "under one [cyber] roof" people who wanted to access theosophical writings/ideas would have a much easier time. The negative, which may not be so obvious, and is only a possibility, is that unity often, but not always, leads to "politics" or "heirarchies", which often, but not always, lead to censorship. I have to agree that if the TS were to ban duplication of Theosophical material on the internet, it would have a fairly negative effect on the populous. A ban is a censor, and in many ways, so is a copywrite. Censorship is obviously not welcomed by American society, (and notice that once again, I can only speak on behalf of American society because I am an ignorant American), and law, with respect to the unconstitutionality of the Communications Decency Act. This is a clear statement that freedom of expression is one of the most important ideals of the society. It even seems to preside over morality. (i.e. it is better that pornography be available to net-surfers of all ages, rather than censor "art".) This may sound like I disagree with the court decision, but actually, I do. I do disagree with the smut, (and the terrorist handbook, which I finally ran across in a search for constitutional militias on the web), however, I also realize that "decency" is a broad term, and that by passing such laws, even theosophy could be eliminated from the web, if someone could come up with the right excuse. For instance, the CWL thread, under the Communications Decency Act, could be made illegal due to its content. Obviously, we are not promoting smut, no matter what our views on the subject may be, but "masturbation" COULD BE considered an "indecent" word. But now I've gone off of the path...*sigh* A unified theosophical site, IMO, is not only improbable, due to the different insights and opinions of theosophists (which is made very clear on this list), but even if it were to occur, the site would eventually, once again IMO, become governed by one group of people's specific ideals. For instance, would the TS put a well-researched essay titled, "The Immorality of Leadbeater", on their website? I think not. But...who knows, maybe they would. But the "possibility" and, IMO, probability for such censorship is there, and, if such a site were created, it would last about three months before people realized they were being censored, and then you would again have hundreds of different web-pages about theosophy, with both original and duplicated material. And with regards to duplicating material...Web sites are moved and/or lost all the time. The main reason that people duplicate information is so that they know the info will be available to their visitors. If you have a bunch of links to a hundred different locations, it takes a lot of time to make sure those links are still valid. And if they are not, then you disappoint your visitors and they don't want to come back. Links are time-efficient, but, in the long run, it is more feasable(sp?) to duplicate material. BTW, I am currently building a web-page, and I plan to do a lot of duplicating myself. With Alan's permission, I will more than likely have a link to his site, for I know its been around a while:). I still have yet to visit your site, Patrick (sorry, *cringe*...:-{...), but, with your permission, I may put a link to your site as well. Also, I know that "SpiritWeb"(if it is still called by that name) used to have some great info on theosophy, so I will probably link mine to theirs as well. My mini-web won't be a theosophy site per se, but theos. is a pretty big part of my life, so I am obviously going to have *some* information about it. If you want to see what it looks like right now, the address is (modzer0.uafdorms.alaska.edu/~triaism), (http://, of course), however, I advise against it, because it is *quite* boring, and as of yet, the only theosophy page on the miniweb has a title on it which reads, "My thoughts on theosophy", with nothing written underneath it...hehe. Kinda makes you wonder. Perhaps I am trying the "mystery approach". (What is she going to say???) *laugh* Anyhow, I'll see yas alls laters. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 20:11:31 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Year 2000 software software issue Message-ID: <33B5B640.F2C55D84@earthlink.net> >It is particularly hard to believe that the issue came out >of nowhere Yes, interestingly it has been around for 30 yrs as an issue for programmers...perhaps it is a perspective on our "news crisis" media that the issue has not received adequate attention. The truth is that come y2k (year 2000) and also beginning within six months the dissolution of finance systems proceeds...there is a psychohistorical law (respects to Isaac Asimov) that any sufficiently complicated system based on unnatural technology will eventually dissolve and such is the case here. The specifics are a simple but widely spread design flaw...'00' instead of '0000' ....interestingly the decades old rationale for doing dates such was to save money...ah karma...see the newsgroup This coincides also with the Tibetan's prediction as to what would happen if *money* became equated with safety and security... Happy days, Patrick From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 09:00:08 -0500 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Announcement Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970629140008.00714b1c@mail.eden.com> Hi I visited Don's URL. In the disclaimer, Don has linked John's complete letter. So everyone can read John's full letter for themselves. Now I hope there should be no confusion about Don's URL as to what it is and what it is not. One of the tricks to induce visitor traffic to any URL is their links and content, in that order. The links that Don has provided should be of help to anyone who is searching for Theosophical materials on the web. Of course one can always use one of the search engines. I will be looking forward to more useful links as Don discovers them. Again Don, keep up the good work. You have done a wonderful job. This again proves that it is the individual enthusiasm and enterprenuership that gets things done fast and quickly (and in the most cost effective way) as has been proven time and again. Generally, established organizations tend to be very slow to act (due to their built-in inertia) and in the fast moving techonology of Internet, it shows up all the more. MK Ramadoss =============================================== At 01:38 AM 6/27/97 GMT, you wrote: >I have been working in the web, creating web pages mainly on theosophy for >over 2 years. One of those pages is a page dedicated to "The Theosophical >Society". The Society founded by the Founders. That page has been in the >web for almost 2 years and nobody has complained about it, nobody until >now! The Administration from Wheaton requested from me to put a disclaimer >on that page. According to John, that page "is not connected with the >Society". It doesn't matter that I have been an active member for 30 years. >Still, according to him, my page on the Theosophical Society is "not >connected to the Theosophical Society". > >Anyway, there is a disclaimer already on my TS page for everybody to see. > >This is the URL: http://www.garlic.com/~rdon/TS.html > >Happy surfing! > >Rudy Don > > > > > >-- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > >Letters to the Editors, and discussion of theosophical ideas and >teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of >"subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 10:00:48 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: suggestions Message-ID: <199706291519.LAA06719@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Judith, I think there are a number of people who have the same idea of unification of Theosophists that you have. I think working together is in progress here and there, but it's not very pronounced. About 10 years ago, we all got together for a conference in New York City and made contact, and brainstormed etc. I talked to some ladies from Pasadena, and to a gentleman from ULT that time. I don't really know what came of it, but the contacts were made. Also, I've borrowed some video tapes from the Olcott Library consisting of talks explaining Theosophy, given during the Parliament of World Religions several years ago. The platform was shared by speakers of 3 theosophical groups Adyar, ULT, Pasadena. I thought the presentations were super. Tony Lysy was in charge. John Algeo spoke a few words from the audience. There are attempts being made at working together. As far as the internet is concerned, I think that's not difficult. All you need to do is create links to all the other cogent home pages. I was hoping that theos-l would be a meeting place for all, but I'm about to drop out, because there's an intolerance towards Leadbeater, which I'm no longer willing to tolerate. I've asked these people any number of times now to do something more productive than hurl mud at each other, but I guess they're too thick.It doesn't sink in. Besides that, there's too much bickering and not enough discussion of Theosophy. So I'm quitting theos-l and concentrating on ts-l. But basically, in theory, I think we should all try to work together, including Bailey people and Steiner people. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:34:28 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: FW: attitude and choice Message-ID: <01BC84A2.15A5FF60@rvik-ppp-ps-4.ismennt.is> ---------- I just forward this message as I got it. You may like it, or you may not - It is your choice now. Einar. The following is making its way around the internet (I have already received it twice, myself). But after receiving it today, I noticed that it dealt with the issue of choice, which we all were discussing a couple weeks ago. So, for those of you who haven"t read this, it"s a quick read and an uplifting story (a la "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" or the works by Oz Mandino). And, it reminds me that despite the heavy burden of cultural programming and natural temperment, we are still the captains of our own ships with regard to choice and free will. Enjoy, Scott ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING Jerry was the kind of guy you love to hate. He was always in a good mood and always had something positive to say. When someone would ask him how he was doing, he would reply, "If I were any better, I would be twins!" He was a unique manager because he had several waiters who had followed him around from restaurant to restaurant. The reason the waiters followed Jerry was because of his attitude. He was a natural motivator. If an employee was having a bad day, Jerry was there telling the employee how to look on the positive side of the situation. Seeing this style really made me curious, so one day I went up to Jerry and asked him, "I don't get it! You can't be a positive person all of the time. How do you do it?" Jerry replied, "Each morning I wake up and say to myself, Jerry, you have two choices today. You can choose to be in a good mood or you can choose to be in a bad mood.' I choose to be in a good mood. Each time something bad happens, I can choose to be a victim or I can choose to learn from it. I choose to learn from it. Every time someone comes to me complaining, I can choose to accept their complaining or I can point out the positive side of life. I choose the positive side of life." "Yeah, right, it's not that easy," I protested. "Yes it is," Jerry said. "Life is all about choices. When you cut away all the junk, every situation is a choice. You choose how you react to situations. You choose how people will affect your mood. You choose to be in a good or bad mood. The bottom line: It's your choice how you live life." I reflected on what Jerry said. Soon thereafter, I left the restaurant industry to start my own business. We lost touch, but I often thought about him when I made a choice about life instead of reacting to it. Several years later, I heard that Jerry did something you are never supposed to do in a restaurant business: he left the back door open one morning and was held up at gun point by three armed robbers. While trying to open the safe, his hand, shaking from nervousness, slipped off the combination. The robbers panicked and shot him. Luckily, Jerry was found relatively quickly and rushed to the local trauma center. After 18 hours of surgery and weeks of intensive care, Jerry was released from the hospital with fragments of the bullets still in his body. I saw Jerry about six months after the accident. When I asked him how he was, he replied, "If I were any better, I'd be twins. Wanna see my scars?" I declined to see his wounds, but did ask him what had gone through his mind as the robbery took place. "The first thing that went through my mind was that I should have locked the back door," Jerry replied. "Then, as I lay on the floor, I remembered that I had two choices: I could choose to live, or I could choose to die. I chose to live." "Weren't you scared? Did you lose consciousness?" I asked. Jerry continued, "The paramedics were great. They kept telling me I was going to be fine. But when they wheeled me into the emergency room and I saw the expressions on the faces of the doctors and nurses, I got really scared. In their eyes, I read, 'He's a dead man.' I knew I needed to take action." "What did you do?" I asked. "Well, there was a big, burly nurse shouting questions at me," said Jerry. "She asked if I was allergic to anything. 'Yes,' I replied. The doctors and nurses stopped working as they waited for my reply. I took a deep breath and yelled, 'Bullets!' Over their laughter, I told them, 'I am choosing to live. Operate on me as if I am alive, not dead." Jerry lived thanks to the skill of his doctors, but also because of his amazing attitude. I learned from him that every day we have the choice to live fully. Attitude, after all, is everything. You have 2 choices now: 1. save and delete this mail from your mail box. 2. forward it Hope, you will choose choice 2 Arnold Appel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:44:23 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: <33B682D7.5FFE@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > > Bart wrote: > > > Would you like it if I quoted a letter here that said, "since Doss has > > admitted to despoiling young goats in his last letter"? > > DESPOILING YOUNG GOATS!!!! God, I love this list. . . It's from a Marion Zimmer Bradley story. It took place in a town where the greatest insult you could hurl on someone is to call them a "despoiler of young goats". Ever since I read it, I have used it when I wanted to give an example of an accusation, but make it so completely ridiculous that nobody would mistake it for the real thing. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:47:08 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: <33B6837C.347D@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > Some of tried this approach with Theosophy International. My part in it > got me thrown off my TS in England Lodge committee without notice, and > in complete disobedience to the lodge's and the Society's own rules. Feel free to join the New York Lodge. We can use all the volunteers we can get. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 09:28:32 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D." Subject: Hall of Records Alantis [Fwd: 1998 Prophecies] Message-ID: <33B67108.327F3127@earthlink.net> Anyone have more info..apparently the first excavation has been successful! > From: "Carl Amedio" > Newsgroups: alt.prophecies.cayce > Subject: Re: 1998 Prophecies > Date: 25 Jun 1997 23:46:00 GMT Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. wrote in article <33AFA810.53C1@earthlink.net>... > One of Cayce's prophecies is that the Hall of Records will be found > underground between the Sphinx and Pyramid...anyone have the latest > info...I know they have done seismic surveys and confirmed underground > chambers...fascinating > > -- Patrick they have excavated and found the tunnel that connects the sphinx and the great pryamid. they(egypt) have put a clamp on sight and refuse to excavate the room under the sphinxs. --------------A2085F190127EFAE9E8D0F65-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 09:45:48 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: attitude and choice Message-ID: <199706291645.JAA19698@palrel1.hp.com> "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." quoted: > Jerry replied, "Each morning I wake up and say to myself, Jerry, you > have two choices today. You can choose to be in a good mood or you > can choose to be in a bad mood.' I choose to be in a good mood. Each > time something bad happens, I can choose to be a victim or I can > choose to learn from it. I choose to learn from it. On the whole, a good attitude - as long as it is genuine. And I can see how the very opposite is all too common today. Just a caution: don't confuse the best choice with never being sad. Even Jesus wept for the condition of his fellow human beings. Another example: a devoted student of Yogananda died. When his other students saw him weeping they reminded him: "She is happy now and in good hands on the other side. She will also reincarnate." He answered, "I know all that. These are tears of love. I shall miss her on this side." Wounds from the human condition become the stigmata sensitivity. From the ancient idea of the Medicus: "Only the wounded physician heals." > Every time someone comes to me complaining, I can choose to accept their > complaining or I can point out the positive side of life. I choose the > positive side of life." Depends. Complaining in the sense of railing against the "unfairness" of life is destructive. But if they are feeling human sadness, you can empathize with them. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:47:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1111 Message-ID: <970629154744_289739267@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-28 19:49:43 EDT, Bart wrote: > Well, that too. Actually, I have been arguing with the author of the > message in the list in which he originally posted. But I have been the > victim of having been quoted out of context in an area I had never > visited, been roundly torn apart, and, when I finally did show up, I > found a lynch mob waiting for me. I did not like it then, and I would > not like to see it happen to anybody else. > apropos only of this paragraph and not of the whole thread... OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wouldn't like that either. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:47:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: to Lynn re Jocelyn Elders Message-ID: <970629154747_-528397017@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-28 19:49:43 EDT, you write: > I didn't in the least want to imply that you didn't like Jocelyn Elders. I > thought you did. So I don't think in the least I need to apologize. Nobody > has apologized to me yet for dragging CWL through the mud repeatedly. Oh, CRAP, Liesel!!!! How in the heck can we carry on a conversation if you don't READ what I wrote!!! When I said I would like an apology, it was about your misquoting me!!!!!!!!!! (As for your first two sentences, I reread them ten times and still don't understand what you're saying there. You thought I did what? Disliked her? If I disliked her, then why did you say that you didn't mean to imply that I disliked her when you actually said that I disliked her? This doesn't make any sense. Is there a typo or an omitted word?) This is WHAT I said about being misquoted: > But the *real* reason why I posted that message was that you added an > editorial comment about Dr. Elders to a line containing my own remarks > without indicating that it was *your* opinion. *That* was what I was truly > objecting to in my first paragraph, not that you said she was great. It was > in effect, putting words in my mouth that I hadn't said--misquoting me. > Anyone who joined the list after I made the original post who read your > message would erroneously have believed that I was the one who made the > remarks that *you* added. Do you see what I'm getting at? People on the > Internet often get upset when remarks aren't attributed properly or are > misquoted. > Then a few sentences down, I said the following about apologies: > disagreeing with you, for example, at this moment but that doesn't mean at > all that I dislike you. (Though I *do* wish you'd apologize for misquoting > me so I won't continue feeling so annoyed at you for misquoting me.) Now, what is so unclear about what I said here in parentheses about why I wished you'd apologize????? If you don't care about sloppily misquoting people, then refuse to apologize to them when they call you out on it, forget it!! I'm not even talking now about issues, philosophies, Elders, CWL, or politics, but plain old basic courtesy which you've apparently never learned!! Actually, it's a bigger issue because it is not right, IMHO, to treat another person's words so carelessly. If you can't bother to carefully read what I wrote to you (or is the real problem that you chose to ignore what I actually said and purposely confused the whole issue?), there is no need to continue this conversation. I'm getting just a bit sick of this tactic of pretending to not understand what was said, twisting the meaning of things, etc. as a last refuge taken when one is otherwise unable to address the real issues. In this case, it was your tying my statement about an apology to like or dislike of Jocelyn Elders in an obvious attempt to avoid having to own up to misquoting me--what it really was about. This tactic is getting *old* because I've seen it here more than once in the last few weeks. But, unlike folks who unsubscribe in disgust at one thing or another, I'll just stay here and be a pain about these kinds of things. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:47:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: to Lynn re Jocelyn Elders Message-ID: <970629154752_-559990748@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-28 19:49:43 EDT, Liesel wrote: > Nobody > has apologized to me yet for dragging CWL through the mud repeatedly. Dear Liesel, I have mixed feelings about CWL. First of all, I truly liked his book "The Inner Life" (the only one I have by him) and feel that he made a wonderful contribution to humanity by writing it. Secondly, without having "been there", there is no way for me to judge whether he did the things that he was accused of or not. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt about these things DESPITE a) having been abused myself as a child by an uncle whose death was an occasion for great joy and jubiliation ; and b) having worked with a rape crisis center for three years. Charges like this are so serious, IMHO, and distressing that the damage they can do if unjustly brought is absolutely horrendous. At the same time, some really compelling information was posted to the list by Alan (I think it was you, Alan. Correct me if I'm wrong.) that has me really torn about it. And, I can understand his wanting to show that the idol has clay feet if indeed he does. Yet at the same time, having clay feet doesn not necessarily detract from the quality of the information he shared. I believe that there is an extremely critical point (perhaps more than one) in spiritual development where powerful energies are being realigned (with temporary imbalances occuring), chakras are being forced open, and the person is in danger of becoming involved in a variety of sexual (and other) activities like the ones that CWL is accused of. So the main feeling I have about this is wanting to express the quality of compassion for all involved: for CWL regardless of the truth or wrongfulness of the accusations; for those making the accusations; etc. This whole CWL issue is extremely complex. > > RE teaching masturbation in the schools. I think you're right that it > shouldn't be mandatory. It's one of those areas that's really private, even > though teaching it is meant to prevent teen mothers, which is a very public > issue, involving lots of tax money. I think it should be a choice the > parents and kids make. I'm including it at the choice of the kids too, > because some parents don't give a hoot one way or the other, and some kids > might, and I'm with CWL, if they masturbate they'll not make babies. You're right that auto-eroticism is not a fertile activity. ;-D In fact, when this whole thread started about CWL, the first thought that popped into mind was St. Paul's injunction about it being better to marry than to burn. (Or was it when we had the celibacy thread? For a list devoted to a spiritually-oriented philosophy, we talk about sex a lot! That's one reason why I can't wait for each digest of theos-l to download. ;-D) But the problem is that it should *not* be a public issue. Before everything began falling under the purview of the government, teen (or single) mothers were the issue of private organizations. Tax dollars were not involved. Folks might say that those days were terrible because of "shame", etc. imposed on single mothers, but what's wrong with a little shame? (If there was a bit more "shame" about our behavior, we may just behave a bit better all around.) This is just another example of things that individuals and groups should be doing for themselves being abstracted (and totally secularized) to government. It's the same argument that was given when they were trying (and succeeded in) pass the motorcycle helmet laws. Those on the side of individuals wanting to be able to make their own decisions about personal safety were told about the public expense of paying for devastating brain injuries. Well, why should government be paying for that in the first place? Once we move beyond the assumption that all problems are the government's and the taxpayers' (really!) responsibility, we may be able to come up with better solutions than one-size-fits-all (which teaching masturbation in public schools is). Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:34:22 -0600 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Welcome to theos, Lynn Message-ID: <33B6C6CE.3EE8@micron.net> Lynn wrote: > But, unlike folks who unsubscribe in disgust at > one thing or another, I'll just stay here and be a pain about these kinds of > things. Well, since I now know you plan on staying - I feel I can be completely honest with you - a true Theosophist. Let me further add that all I ever say is always filled with love, fluff and flowers - evil runs screaming from my presence. Now, having said all that, I would like to make a suggestion that may not only behoove you, but everyone else on this list: Have you considered seeking a few sessions with a psychiatrist? Hugs, Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 01:54:57 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: <9Fr5quAhPwtzEw60@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >BTW, I am currently building a web-page, and I plan to do a lot of >duplicating myself. With Alan's permission, I will more than likely have >a link to his site, for I know its been around a while:). Link as much as you like! Anything on there you want, please use. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 01:56:42 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: TI Welcome! Message-ID: Theosophy International Welcomes Don F. RIDGWAY! E-mail: dridgway@ix.netcom.com Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 01:18:00 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: In message <33B6837C.347D@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> Some of tried this approach with Theosophy International. My part in it >> got me thrown off my TS in England Lodge committee without notice, and >> in complete disobedience to the lodge's and the Society's own rules. > > Feel free to join the New York Lodge. We can use all the volunteers we >can get. > > Bart Lidofsky Attending meetings would be kind of difficult from Cornwallm UK! but thanks for the idea! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:41:55 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Bart the 'Despoiler' Message-ID: <33B72B03.3D24@gil.net> Bart, I see thru to your truth now. Tell me though, how may I understand a man such as yourself, one who has revealed himself as a "despoiler of young goats". Since you have clearly stated your preference, how much more can be expected from you. A 'travelor' with, ... how shall I put it, sensitive and discerning tastes? Bart, I like you ! A man who stands behind the horned issues of life. Ken Malkin P.S. PLEASE, do not entangle me further with your prickly proclivity. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:50:19 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Suggestions Message-ID: <33B79D7B.79CE@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > Feel free to join the New York Lodge. We can use all the volunteers we > >can get. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > Attending meetings would be kind of difficult from Cornwallm UK! but > thanks for the idea! Details, details! On the serious side, however, we do have generally excellent member's meetings at the New York Theosophical Society. I have been considering recording them, and making them available to Theosophists world-wide (possibly working out a deal to let Wheaton do the copying and distribution). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:18:18 -0400 From: Annette Rivington Subject: Re: THEOS-BUDS digest 237 Message-ID: <33B7DC49.6C641A1E@globalserve.net> Thanks in advance for listening and to those in the Toronto Theosophical Society who may get this, please pass this on to your Treasurer and anyone else who may require payment for books, mailings, courses, trips, healthfoods, and any other thing: I, Annette Rivington, who has been paying Peter Rivington's debts and managing all but his spiritual life for the past 16 years, do hereby notify anyone who may become financially involved with him, that I take absolutely no responsibility for any of his actions, debts or liabilities from today, June 29, 1997. On this path, if not followed in truth, everything goes to waste and the vulture lawyers, accountants, legislators, takers, fake philosophers and healers, and gossipers gain energy and ground. What is in the mind IS WHAT IS MANIFEST ( or done). Some of us weep already as we watch you watch with glee as the order of life, both good and bad, appears to disintegrate. Those of you who don't read on, know now that you have closed your mind and life to the wider issues. Goodbye and good luck on your detour path. For the stalwart and kind: I have read some of your correspondence with much interest and have, for the past two years, lived with the results of your influence. My (reluctant) comment to everyone is that there will be no positive change and you will not see control based organizational structures collapse in your lifetime, unless by massive natural disaster. This is because the probability that there will ever be a critical mass of people who are enlightened enough to live and love in the truth, both with themselves and with others, is much lower than any of you can imagine (including you who watch with glee), hence no positive, ordered change is likely to occur, and because most of those organizations that you think are so unstable have expensive and immediately available disaster programs in place ( and believe me, they don't include you). The people in general still need leadership and this leadership can only be based on truth and love, because, in all our past and present lifetimes, we have all been there and done that, and those of us who "know" do not usually join groups and live secret lives and fear censorship. Let us take the example of my so-called husband, Peter Rivington, who, since joining the Toronto Theosophical Society, has lied to his friends and family about where he is and what he is doing, has stopped taking responsibility for his relationships with others "outside" the group, has gone into debt and used the money of family members to support what started out as a possible philosopy of life or religion and has now become a crutch or excuse for the attainment of pleasure of the self. He calls himself a student and tells those of us who are left with the responsibility for all that he now chooses to avoid, that whatever he does is either "meant to be" or our needs and desires are "not important" in the grand scheme of things (presumably that he is involved in and we are not). It does not take "a rocket scientist" to see that my husband is "sick", that a great number of the world's population is sick, that sick people join groups to support their sickness and their so-called therapy and that groups like your own, started by perhaps a brilliant, insightful and enlightened person and continued by a few of the same, in the same manner as corporations and governments, attract many people who choose (for all of life is a choice) not to struggle with the toughest, and what I consider to be the basis, of this physical life - individual truth, integrity, consistency, communication, responsibility, love. My so-called husband, a representative of your philosopy ( currently I defend it from the title of "sect" and other derogatory terms, but I suspect not for much longer), informs me that the individual comes first, that the individual's choice of path is the only important thing, and that others must ( and I emphasize MUST ) accept this or look to themselves for their inadequacies in understanding. (In other words, "I'm right, you're lost; whatever I do is right and you don't matter a hoot). I understand that some of you believe that "the current order" will end because it has been recorded in prophesy (ancient, old, recent and current). I have read these prophesies. I understand also that others of you believe that it will end because it is control based and hence wrong. I understand very well about that, having studied history and comparative religion. After about 10,000 years of domination, under a myriad of philosopies and religions, for these are the basis of your so-called control organizations - a person's or group of people's "perception" of this life and how it should be for all of us and many others "buying in" to the concept and "trusting" that the motivation is "good and right", many people are facing the devastating realization that, as a race, we have severely messed up everything we touched to the extent that it may be unrecoverable. Some of us have quietly maintained a loving, responsible, hopeful life all along. We have cared for and nurtured the material and spiritual for both ourselves and others, forgiving the transgressions of others, working hard on our own enlightenment in the knowlege that we cannot hope to be an example to others if we are not seeking perfection ourselves, often facing much more than our own responsibilities and fears alone, such as I am doing today. What I understand is that what you people are saying, once again, is that "yours is the way and the light" and the rest of us are "outsiders, unitinitiated, underdeveloped, unknowing, unseeing". What a shame. To repeat the same old same old, I mean. What I believe is that, it is an undeniable fact that we spiritual beings are in physical bodies in a physical environment and, until this stasis changes it is through this medium that we express ourselves. If I was alone here, my actions, words and energy transmissions would be important only to the extent that they affected my environment, and I would be really stupid to do, say or think anything that destroyed my environment, unless I also wished to destroy myself. I would have that choice. I would chose, as I do now, not to make it one of destruction. ( My big fear currently is that I shall be forced to defend it, despite the fact that I abhor violence in any form, hence being forced by you lot to do that which I am trying to teach myself and others by my example not to do. Quite a paradox, eh!) I am not alone and nor are any of you. What you do, say and think affects me and my environment. Hence the perceived need of others for this censorship that is becoming an issue for you. What you do, say and think affects people like my husband (who often finds it difficult to think for himself and I have tried my hardest not to react to this, for taking responsibility for one's own thoughts and actions is the toughest thing to learn in this body, but today I fail in this by communicating to you and not keeping my peace and I forgive myself totally ), and as he parrots your philosophy and it affects me and our children and my work, the balance and peace of many is pushed into chaos, and in that chaos the very people you hope to enlighten and hence change their ways become even stronger in their drive to maintain the status quo. The old stone in the pond ripple effect. What your representative, my husband, says to this is that, once again, if we are so concerned and affected by what you have to say and do, then we must be weak, unenlightened, obviously on the wrong path and to look to ourselves for our inadequacies and to leave you people alone to follow the "true light". You've got to be kidding! Can you be so narrow minded as to think that the rest of us are all some kind of dumb neanderthal-type creatures unconnected to this path and light you keep talking about incessantly? (Is it because you like the sound or text of your own voices and thoughts, or do you need to keep talking about it to convince yourselves of its truth?) Do you really think that we are going to leave you alone to continue to destroy our marriages, sadden our children, throw our grandchildren into confusion before they even get started on their paths which may be totally different from yours that is so obviously tied up in the ancient, so obviously disconnected from everyday reality, and is so narrow that is does not address the issues of human psychological development, interpersonal relations, current scientific knowledge, commerce and law? (Man cannot live by spirituality alone, UNTIL THE TIME WHEN MAN CAN LIVE BY SPIRITUALITY ALONE, and all of us are a long way from that yet!) In answer to your expected cry that either my husband is doing it wrong, or that I am mentally ill (and I've been called that many times before - brilliant, insightful, truthful, consistent, loving people who stand firm in the truth always are called mentally ill by those who cannot lie, cheat, steal and avoid them in the search to satisfy their self-centered desires), or that this is simply a marriage gone wrong and has nothing to do with the "greater path", I say to you: Question him. Bring him to task on the issue. Ask him where in all these books and lectures (he keeps buying instead of paying his share of the mortgage) it tells him to lie, cheat and steal the balance, peace, energy, time and money of any loving soul who is available. Ask him to show you where he finds in Theosophy the philosophy of the one that precludes the path of the others. Instruct him to explain to me (one of these so-called people you expect to be dying of a heart attack) why I should even consider a philosophy of life that encourages its followers to break all promises whenever it suits them, use up any unrenewable resource whenever they chose and expect someone or something else, that they ridicule in private and use to their benefit in public, to continue to provide, and that, even though so obviously no closer to the ultimate truth than the rest of us, tries to convince me that I am so totally screwed up that I should be regarded as not worth the time or effort of being treated with the love, respect and integrity that I deserve as a fellow travellor. Here's what I say: We are not living two thousand years ago, or in the middle ages and we have come along way baby, some of us understanding and withstanding that particular zealous brand of behaviour currently exhibited by my husband fueled by your organization, and, to interpret what a great guy with a great idea, one of the many, would and will probably say, when the time comes to lead the masses again " what the bejesus good is it if a man gains what he THINKS is his everlasting soul and destroys everything else in the process". Just what ARE you people and my husband going to do when the end comes and the few of you stand on that hilltop overlooking the death and destruction of all that went before? Hey. The indigenous peoples and Jews ( to name a few) have already been there, seen that. Anything you may say or do at that time will surely mean nothing, will be the basis for nothing different. The only solution, salvation (call it what you will) is resolution without destruction. Anything else IS failure. Of course a few "failed" lives, relationships, religions, philosophies, economies can be perceived, conveniently, as not wasted effort or part of the learning curve, in that way we all avoid the guilt, pain and loss of confidence that may push us into inaction. As an observor of life ( and I am not a young chick) and a trained teacher, I have observed that, unless the guilt, pain and loss is great, the lesson remains unlearned and the way inevitably becomes a detour until life, if given another chance, brings one right back to the same lesson again. Like it or not, a lesson unlearned is a failure and resources consumed in repeating past mistakes knowingly, is a waste of time. Unless of course, you believe that nothing is real, nothing is a failure, nothing is a waste of time, there is no such thing as time, nothing you do is matters because the great all knowing "God" is the only thing that can be real, perfect and truthful, and consequently everything you do is fine as long as you say you do it in the name of this perfect state that does not expect you to be perfect in a thousand lifetimes. And why would you think that the rest of us will let some of you destroy what a great many of us have quietly spent our lives building in truth and love? Come out of the secret societies (aka organized religions), get your noses out of those musty tomes hidden away in closed libraries (aka organized education/indoctrination), take a break from those comforting weekend seminars in exotic locations (no different than the corporate ones I attend), get off the Internet for a few weeks (aka the need to belong), and take a walk on the wild side - alone - like some of us who get back out there in the corporate and interpersonal world holding up our end everyday, doing both - taking care of business and walking the path and walking the path and taking care of business. I dare you. Anyone can meditate, pray and spout the words. I often do it myself, meditate and pray that is. I reluctantly spout words as I prefer to communicate by sense and reading one's energy. Ponder a word of advice from one who is in training to "see" however much it hurts: Some philosophies, conversations and groups are like that next drink to an alcoholic. How can you hope to heal when you continue to feed the disease? When do you "see" that you are contributing the the very problem that you say the rest of us are causing? Get a life, for goodness sake, it's the only one you have this time around, and according to some of you, this particular physical existance will not be here for anyone's next life. Oh, and finally, I do not intend to die of a heart attack or any other nasty disease, and I have managed to manifest what I chose so far in this life, and I believe as strongly as you that I am on the right path too, so see you on that hilltop and for eternity, asking only that you love me, think about me, debate with me, question with me, and take responsibility for your own thoughts, words and deeds, as I do for you, until one day you too understand that every thought, word and deed you make is felt, usually in pain, by some of us who feel and see.. Annette Rivington (No Organized Religion, person, wife, mother, accountant, B. Sc., B. Ed., M.B.A.)