From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 17:14:50 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma." Subject: Hello again Message-ID: <199704250008.UAA13379@elvis.vnet.net> Hello to all friends! Thoa, i want to thank you for your kindly note (Health) trying to help me, also thank you M.KRammadoss for your aquotations.i will keep them in mind. I haven't read any posts recently, i will print them and read them in my house for being on schedule on time. and read the new ones then. Today is the first day i feel well, sort of. i want to tell you other thing: I have this problem, i really need the help of theosophy students for this, really. i kindly beg your attention to this. I don't know, probably because i'm Libra-Gemini, but i have this real problem trying to do things, i sometimes start the things but don't conclude them never, or with a lot of difficulty, Have a real problem with the concentration of my mind and my emotions. i think i know where is the problem, but i don't know how to manage with it. seems that the problem (as i was speculating in the last time i said , as is a relation with the chackras-bad health of the organs involved in the chackras region-place of their rule , is also the problem of the type of emotion-taught and the chackra involved, i presume. this problem , of my lack of concentration of energy ,has gone to a point where my self says "I want to do this" and my emotions said " but i want to do this and this and this and this also" and my mind is divagating, floating in a wave of taughts, i keep thinking and thinking and thinking , but seems i cannot focus on the problem of how to manage with the situation, even that now im concious of the problem,but it seems that i am too slow and too slow and too slow and other pepole here in school know how to manage the problem real easy and i keep being real desesperate and nervous and when i think i begin to manage the problem, something happens that distracts me, other person-problem (i lost a book, for example) i get sick or depressed (like last time, i was so tremendously depressed that i got sick) and when i get well finally i still am too way slow, and i want to focus my energy.....!WAH! @-* (me being real nuts and desesperate) So, please, if you know how to manage this, i will obviously take your help in great value ,of course. Thanks , of all, really. Estrella P.S. i'm really happy to talk to you. your place has really claryfied my mind in many questions, in others has maked my mind confirm my taughts. And forgive me my selfishness, but really , i feel so lone and desesperate, that i need i think "a little help from my friends" Thanks to all , thanks Thoa, Thanks, 'Doss, thanks all. really. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 21:38:32 -0400 From: smertae@webtv.net (Jeffrey Smart) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 999 Message-ID: <199704250138.SAA15096@mailtod-101.bryant.webtv.net> I wish to be removed from this list. thanks From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 23:02:56 -0500 (CDT) From: cdgert@ripco.com (CDGertrude) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 999 Message-ID: > > I wish to be removed from this list. thanks > Why? -- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:25:41 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Naming names Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970425142541.0069eb6c@mail.eden.com> At 11:21 PM 4/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> In message <335D609C.4A78@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky >> writes >> >> One of the Trustees of K Trusts (who was a party to the litigation) is >> >> now on the Board of TSA as well as a Trustee of Theosophical Investment >> >> Trust which manages the Investments of TSA. >> > >> > Now here's the thing. The way I work is that, if I knew the name of the >> >person, I would directly ask him or her what the story was. >> >> A very good point. Doss has mentioned this many times on the list, but >> although asked directly, seems unwilling to name the person whose >> identity is so strongly hinted at. Well, Doss??? > > I asked Michael Gomes about it. I will get the actual names when he can >look up the proper spelling, but according to him, the situation was >largely Krishnamurti vs. his business partner. The person who was >involved with both trusts was not a trustee but in fact a lawyer, who >was hired because of his familiarity with Theosophy. Finally, millions >of dollars sounds like a lot of money, but remember that Krishnamurti >was a BILLIONaire. > > Bart Lidofsky > Update: The Trustees of KFA (new trust that was setup) (who along with the California Attorney General sued the Krishnamurti Writings Inc etc. and their trustees) were represented by separate law firms: Plaintiffs: (New K Trust and CA Atty General) 1. Kaplan, Livingston, Goodwin, Berkowitz & Selvin (LA Law Firm) 2. Cohen, Cearnal, England, Whitfield & Osborne 3. California Deputy Attorney General Defendants: (KWI etc and their trustees) 1. James D. Loebl 2. Wyman, Bautzer, Rothman & Kuchel (a prestigious Beverly Hills law firm) Still I would wait to know what you hear from Gomes. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:47:39 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: My Kind of Guy! (There's others too) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970425074737.006b9714@imagiware.com> >>DARWIN AWARD WINNER FOR 1997 ANNOUNCED >>> And now, the 1997 winner: Larry Waters of Los Angeles-- one of the >>> few Darwin winners to survive his award winning accomplishment. >>> Back home, Larry securely strapped the balloons to his sturdy lawn >>> chair. He anchored the chair to the bumper of his jeep and inflated >>> the balloons with the helium. He climbed on for a test while it was >>> still only a few feet above the ground. >>> Satisfied it would work, Larry packed several sandwiches and a six- >>> pack of Miller Lite, loaded his pellet gun-- figuring he could pop a >>> few balloons when it was time to descend-- and went back to the >>> floating lawn chair. He tied himself in along with his >>> pellet gun and provisions. Larry's plan was to lazily float up to a >>> height of about 30 feet above his back yard after severing the anchor >>> and in a few hours come back down. >>> Things didn't quite work out that way. This reminds me of a couple I know in Oklahoma that tried the same thing. The two of them went up in a pair of attached lawn chairs. They planned better and their flight went off without a hitch. There's a picture of them aloft on the trip that was later published in their magazine. Perhaps the moral here isn't "don't do something stupid," but rather "do all your homework first before trying something dangerous"? -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 97 11:42:04 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Weird lately? Message-ID: <199704251542.LAA06536@leo.vsla.edu> Hi gang, After one of the strangest nights at the library in history, with the computer system doing inexplicable things and several really odd encounters with patrons, I got home and called a friend halfway across the country. He started reeling off all the odd and disruptive things that were happening in his life lately (caught in a flood, for one) and in those of his friends. I could match the stories for strange and stressful oddities in my own life recently. And in those of friends. So am posting with this rather vague question. Has anyone else noticed that life seems a lot weirder than usual lately, unpredictable, stressful? Am wondering if planetary configurations are at work. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 09:59:20 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: The 1997 Darwin Award Message-ID: <199704251659.JAA07564@palrel1.hp.com> Thoa, I'm sure the posthumous recipients of the award you listed were all worthy, but I would submit the following: There are many transmission lines that crisscross Connecticut. These are held up by Transmission Towers of various constructions. Those most commonly installed near urban areas are called "metal Ornamental Towers" (supposedly prettier than wood towers). Sometimes adventurous folks climb the towers in order to enjoy the view and the night air. Most stay away from the wires, and when they get bored, come back down. Apparently, a man who was forlorn after a recent spat with his girl- friend needed some fresh air to clear his head and decided to climb a tower. He stopped for a 6 pack to help clear his thoughts, went to a tower south of Hartford, next to I-91, and climbed it. Public Service employees later pieced the story together. The man sat there 60 feet above the highway, drank his beer and consoled his bruised ego. After 5 beers, he needed to do what people often need to do after 5 beers. It being such a long hike down, he unzipped and did his business right there off the tower. Electricity is a funny thing. One doesn't need to touch a wire in order to get shocked. Depending on conditions, 115,000 volt lines,like those supported by the tower, could shock a person as far away as 6 feet. When the man "whizzed" near the conductor (wire), the power arced up his "stream" (urine is an excellent conductor of electricity), traveled up to his private parts, and blew him off the tower. The guys at the power company noted a momentary outage on this line and sent repairmen to see if there was any damage. When they got to the scene of the accident, they found a very dead person, his fly down, what was left of his private parts smoking, and a single beer left on top. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:19:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Thoalight@aol.com Subject: removal Message-ID: <970425131812_-1099497624@emout15.mail.aol.com> Gertrude wrote: >Jeffrey Smart: >> I wish to be removed from this list. thanks >> >Why? The answer could be as simple as the volume was way too much. Some posts require a tremendous time to read them. Unless you have a desire to read them, it can be overwhelming. I had a friend who logged on but had to log off because it was too much for her. Of course, it could be because we're so darn obnoxious (paranoid meter goes up. Everyone starts to wonder, "What did I do?") :o) Anyway, this list is the way it is because of everybody's personality who joined in. No problemo. Good, bad. and indifference. Hey, it could be worse. On my Kuk Sool Won list that I never read or post, somebody replied to all the posts with the same paragraph requesting that his e-mail is too precious to be clogged with insignificant talks, and to only post when they have something better to talk about. Later his wife e-mailed in apologizing to everyone, stating that she enjoyed the talks. I personally enjoy these theosophy lists tremendously. I was starting to learn about t/Theosophy when I joined in. Now I'm hooked. I've gotten a lot of information, directions and laughs out of them. It's strenghtened my thinking and word mind. Sometimes, I feel like logging off so that I don't have to think in terms of words but just pictures. The problem with thinking in terms of pictures all the time is that you become inept at communication. Anyway, I won't be able to respond to any e-mails, private or otherwise, since I am off on vacation for 2 weeks. Have great weeks, folks. Thoa a.k.a. Thoalight Zone :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:44:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: My Kind of Guy! (There's others too) Message-ID: <970425134411_213718907@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-25 11:04:18 EDT, you write: >This reminds me of a couple I know in Oklahoma that tried the same >thing. The two of them went up in a pair of attached lawn chairs. >They planned better and their flight went off without a hitch. There's >a picture of them aloft on the trip that was later published in their >magazine. Perhaps the moral here isn't "don't do something stupid," >but rather "do all your homework first before trying something dangerous"? > Actually, I always thought it would be kind of fun to learn to levitate (my normal fear of heights notwithstanding), float up into the O'Hare glidepath to be reported by a passing jet, land quickly and watch the fun as the FAA tries to explain what happened and say to the press "Me? Fly without an airplane? Was I wearing blue tights and cape or just a business suit?" Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 13:45:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Weird lately? Message-ID: <970425134526_-1601346051@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-25 11:59:55 EDT, you write: >So am posting with this rather vague question. Has anyone else >noticed that life seems a lot weirder than usual lately, >unpredictable, stressful? Am wondering if planetary >configurations are at work. It's the comet's fault. It's always the comet's fault. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:48:58 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Karma Message-ID: <336820BA.62C8@eden.com> Karma and Reincarnation are the two key ideas in the Indian and Eastern Thought. Much has been written about both of them. This evening when I had some opportunity to ponder over principle or law of Karma, I was struck with its complexity, at least from a theoretical point of view since I do not have any first hand knowledge as to how laws of Karma work. The immense complexity is easy to see. For example we interact with our families and affect them and are affected by them. Similarly we interact with our neighbors, friends, strangers, business associates, teachers, students etc etc. In addition by our actions we may affect a large number of individuals depending on the kind of situation we are in and the impact of the actions on others. This is just for one individual. When we take into account millions of individuals, the fundamental issue for me is one of orchestrating all this and keeping track of the "accounting". For most of us, even balancing the check books is a herculean job. So this is an immense task, because any inaccurate tracking will result in some injustice being done to one or more or even millions of individuals. This brought up the possibility. May be in the 3 dimensional world and the knowledge we have, the whole thing looks very immense and staggering. May be in a higher dimension, one can see how all the accounting is going on. This also makes me wonder if all the information that has been handed over about Karma, may be a very simplistic one just to remind us that it is not good for the welfare of the humanity and all living beings and things to do certain things. A reminder so that not only if listened to and followup, will help make this a better world and all will be beneficiaries. At the same time it may be a warning that a certain price has to be paid by some one for everything he/she does. I would like to get feedback on this issue. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 02:40:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Weird lately? Message-ID: <970501024023_-766965376@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-30 21:19:47 EDT, you write: >Very quiet, isn't it. It's probably all Chucks's fault. Or maybe it's >all my fault :-) > > Can't be me. I've been too busy blowing up things in San Fransisco. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:42:14 GMT From: "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." Subject: Karma Message-ID: <199705011142.LAA00624@rvik.ismennt.is> Einar here. Into the discussion of karma I thought it might fit here to include some thoughts of mine sent to a Discussion Forum in connection with the Bridge-L dicussion list. The forum is on the web with the URL: http://www.web-wiz.com/scripts/cfml.exe?template=/cfo/confer/threads.dbm&cid=94 Interestingly enough the ususally active Bridge-L has been unusually quiet these days as has this list. As you see I am trying to bring the karma theory down to the level of everyday psychological experience level, so we can live it's cause-effect mechanism consciously moment by moment every day of our life. This is the only way to "burn all karma in the fire of understanding" I have been waiting for some real discussion on some theosophical topics where education and a real communion of understanding is the main point, rather than arguing on trivialities and personal criticism or even mud-throwing. I hope this will make for some comments from you folks! >>" I would like to discuss a little the psychological factor of the idea of karma. In my opinion E.J. did quite a good job describing the emperical effects, the interreaction of karma in the external world, and the interaction between indivduals and groups. But there is another side to it, the psychological individual side, and I want to put the following fort as a point for discussion, and not as a karmic dogma. Sharlene is quit right IMO about the role of intentions, i.e. the psychological factor, rather than the deeds themselves. It's right that we are all a part of the whole - or rather we ARE the whole, - we are the world, each one of us. Individuality (i.e. self awareness) is a result of the psychological evolution, which is so picturesqly described in the Biblical "Paradise" parable. Having gained the intelligence of "knowing right from wrong" - and going against that knowledge, makes the individual "responsible for his actions. It also invokes the "SIN", which is primarly an individual condition, but since we are "All One", it's no ones private matter either. I look upon karma as a scar on the psyche - and at the same time a dishamony in the Universal Consciousness. The higher Self (Atman) and the universal consciousness (Brahman or Divinity) will in cooperation work at compensating those scars in the psyce and the Universe. In the short term it will counteract the cause by inflicting a suitable effect on the individual, which is done continually moment by moment, all our life. In the long run this will not solve the universal problem of disharmony, individually or universally. Therefore the most important effect of karmic "retribution" is the learning element, the education towards the individual wisdom, that ultimately will "burn all karmic debts in the fire of love and understanding". This is a "forced" process in life until each individal has gained enough wisdom to take his/her education in his/her own hands and thereby enhance the process of learning enomously. How should we then practically encounter our own karmic debts in our dayly life? By conscious encounter, forgiveness, understanding, awareness, self-control, in-attachment, - it is a complicated psychological process. The main thing is to inhibit the emotional retribution, to disconnect the cause-effect-cause vicious cicle. This is the "other cheek" psychology of Jesus Christ. The next important lesson is the psychology of forgiving, which by the way is about correction in our own psyche, and has very little to do with the one we forgive. The doctrine of karma is really not about a lofty philosophical speculations on universal retributions. Neither is it in any way about fatality or destained fate. It's about the momentous living, the psychology of momentous action. Every momemt, we are shaping our future by the way we encounter our momentous "destiny". Every incident that we meet in our life, shows us what WE are, and if carefully noticed, that self-knowledge will aid us in our next encounter, so that slowly our wisdom, which is really a combination of self-understanding and love, will guide us towards hamonious living in this world. "<< Love and light. Einar Adalsteinsson. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 21:26:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet in your car Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970502022638.006b59cc@mail.eden.com> Just today I saw Mercedes Benz introducing built in capability for Internet for the driver and passengers. Today there is software available which will flash on your screen whenever a new important e-mail msg arrives. It is quite possible that we will see Internet as a standard fixture in all family size cars of the future. Think of the possibilities of reaching anyone anywhere instantaneously. Control and censoring of information flow is the traditional trick organizations have always used to prevent 'truth' from reaching out to the audience. That wall is going to be broken in the future. It is said that fax and other modern communication tools were some of the tools used in the demise of the iron curtain. Internet is going to be the tool that will demolish the artificial wall built and maintained by the bureaucracy to retain control of the membership or followers. Hope we will see this in your and my life time. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 03:57:57 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1006 Message-ID: <970502035756_-1299937640@emout04.mail.aol.com> This post is primarily for Mark (MKR) but others may find it to be of some interest: 1. Regarding the varying usages of the term : yes, it can get confusing but HPB probably has the best definition which equates to "I am I" at both the mortal and divine levels (see her Theosophical Glossary, pg 111). In other words, is the term we use to define our individuality or separation from Unity. This should provoke a comment from our heretical friend, Chuck, to the effect that: "we are actually using the term to foster an illusion." Antici- pating that this is what he will say (or, at least, think) I can only reply: "precisely, Chuck, precisely." 2. Concerning the "complexity" of Karmic interactions, it might seem that the Universe has a mighty "accounting job" to keep track of it all. But, at the divine level, it all becomes very simple and precise. To use an analogy, consider another natural law of the universe --- gravity. Some of the mathe- matical equations required to show the interaction of that force with electri- city and magnetism continue to baffle the greatest minds on earth. Albert Einstein was certain one set of equations could explain all three --- but he could never prove it. Nor, to date, can anyone else! Nevertheless, gravity gets along quite well without those elusive mathematical equations. It can "solve" in an instant all of its interactions with matter under all possible conditions --- leaving it to us humans to flounder around in the realm of physics trying to explain why gravity manifests in the way that it does. Likewise with Karma. We have great difficulty trying to "account" for it ... but Karma, like gravity, accounts for itself very nicely (perfectly, as a matter of fact). And eventually, at one level of consciousness or another, we humans (or our higher natures that are far more than human) will fully comprehend the workings of both the Unified Field Theory that challenged Einstein and the workings of Karma that challenges us. Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 06:35:58 EST From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Subject: Re: Weird/Wesak (to Titus) Message-ID: <199705041035.2099600@microfone.net> >Speaking of planetary conditions, the first Full Moon in Taurus (Wesak or >Buddha's birthday) was last Tuesday. My teacher told how Buddha and the Christ >work together at this time of year. Is there any theosophical writing on >Wesak? (I think Alice Bailey has written some). As others pointed out, CWL's Masters & the Path is the "mainstream" TS work discussing the Wesak ceremony. There are 90 or so web addresses matching a web search on "Wesak", although some of them seem to be down. Most of them draw heavily from the Alice Bailey works, and references to Wesak are scattered throughout many of those books. The Wesak information has been correlated from them into a 22 page brochure by the publisher, and is available w/o charge from Lucis Trust, 120 Wall St., 24th fl., New York New York 10005. According to Bailey, the Wesak Festival is the 2nd of three full moon festivals that make up the Higher Interlude cycle of the spiritual year. The 1st is Easter (Aries) and the 3rd is this month's full moon of Gemini on May 22nd. The 3rd Festival is also known as World Invocation Day, and the idea of the three Spiritual Festivals (and the lesser festivals at the other nine moons) is one of the main differences between the Bailey teachings and "orthodox" Theosophy. Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 06:54:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1006 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970502115439.006d4420@mail.eden.com> At 03:50 AM 5/2/97 -0400, DSArthur@aol.com wrote: >This post is primarily for Mark (MKR) but others may find it to be of some >interest: >1. Regarding the varying usages of the term : yes, it can get confusing >but > HPB probably has the best definition which equates to "I am I" at both >the > mortal and divine levels (see her Theosophical Glossary, pg 111). In >other > words, is the term we use to define our individuality or >separation from > Unity. This should provoke a comment from our heretical friend, Chuck, >to > the effect that: "we are actually using the term to foster an illusion." > Antici- > pating that this is what he will say (or, at least, think) I can only >reply: > "precisely, Chuck, precisely." >2. Concerning the "complexity" of Karmic interactions, it might seem that >the > Universe has a mighty "accounting job" to keep track of it all. But, at >the > divine level, it all becomes very simple and precise. To use an >analogy, > consider another natural law of the universe --- gravity. Some of the >mathe- > matical equations required to show the interaction of that force with >electri- > city and magnetism continue to baffle the greatest minds on earth. > Albert > Einstein was certain one set of equations could explain all three --- >but he > could never prove it. Nor, to date, can anyone else! Nevertheless, >gravity > gets along quite well without those elusive mathematical equations. It >can > "solve" in an instant all of its interactions with matter under all >possible > conditions --- leaving it to us humans to flounder around in the realm >of > physics trying to explain why gravity manifests in the way that it does. > Likewise with Karma. We have great difficulty trying to "account" for >it > ... but Karma, like gravity, accounts for itself very nicely (perfectly, >as a > matter of fact). And eventually, at one level of consciousness or >another, > we humans (or our higher natures that are far more than human) will >fully > comprehend the workings of both the Unified Field Theory that challenged > Einstein and the workings of Karma that challenges us. > > Dennis Thanks for the response. "Killing" the "I", eliminating the "illusion" of I which unfolds the Unity has been discussed for a long time. Some years ago, it was mentioned that one of the interpretations of the Cross is Killing the I like a sword cutting off a vertical body. I agree at some level of consciousness the complexity should become "simple". The point I was trying to make was that all the various explantions and writings on Karma are perhaps a very rudimentary and vary limited approach to explain it. Perhaps that is all that is possible at the limited physical level. ....Doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 10:29:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-xxxx Message-ID: <336A084D.4B20@eden.com> I just visited the Deja News usenet search engine and searched for msgs on Theosophy. What I saw was there have been inquiries as where one can find info or discussions on Theosophy and HPB. Many of these have have been responded to many of the well-known participants here like Paul, Eldon, Daniel etc. who have directed inquirers to theos-l and other sources. What is surprising is that I have not seen any one from Olcott in any usenet. May be they are all very busy manufacturing Theosophy Certificate holders. Who knows? MKR PS: I just watched Britain electing the youngest PM in 185 years. Comparing to what happened in the US when Clinton was elected, the world seems to be moving towards younger generation. Can we expect TS also have a young leader, not some old retired person. Let us remember that HPB and HSO were in their prime when they started the work for Theosophy. I am sure there were a large number of old retired and good and pure and honest and sincere and well meaning people around the world with a lot of interest and enthusiasm when the Real Founders started the TS movement. But they chose someone in their prime of life. The Founders must have known that with old and retired people a pioneering organization cannot be built, nor with part-timers. Just my thought. Your mileage and direction may vary. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:02:00 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: Wierd Lately? Message-ID: With all these explosions I think Neptune must all be telling us something. Since we are only just moving into the Aquarian age Neptune must be trying to get us to let go through Piscean influences. What is everyone blowing up? I've almost blown up a welding laboratory - not something to try at home folks!! A friend has also almost blown up his kitchen, and he wasn't even there! Here's to Oxycetalene [just kidding] Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:29:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Wierd Lately? Message-ID: <970502152932_-1132645562@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-02 14:14:57 EDT, you write: >What is everyone blowing up? I've almost blown up a welding laboratory - not >something to try at home folks!! A friend has also almost blown up his >kitchen, and he wasn't even there! > > And someone on another e-list I'm on had her corncakes explode! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 18:04:55 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Historical Question Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970502230455.00683184@mail.eden.com> In a book titled "Editorial Notes", Krishnaji writes: "I need not describe Hollywood in detail ... In the afternoon of that day I went over Krotona, which was once the headquarters of the Theosophical Society in America. The site has indeed been well chosen, and Krotona is one of the attractions of Hollywood; but the recent and unfortunate troubles that have caused so much misunderstanding within the American section of the Society have naturally had a deplorable effect on Krotona, which I am certain, will soon be repaired." ================================================= This appears to have been written in 1921 or around that time. Is their anyone who knows the "real" troubles that took place in the TSA. For any one interested in historical issues, this may be very interesting. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:57:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Weird lately? Message-ID: In message <970501024023_-766965376@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-04-30 21:19:47 EDT, you write: > >>Very quiet, isn't it. It's probably all Chucks's fault. Or maybe it's >>all my fault :-) >> >> > >Can't be me. I've been too busy blowing up things in San Fransisco. > >Chuck the Heretic I thought you had a foot pump for those dolls ... Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 20:13:35 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: young leaders Message-ID: <199705030130.VAA24837@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Can we expect TS also have a young leader, not some old retired person. If you're thinking of young people in the sense that they might be more imaginative and innovative, I'm with you. But to me those qualities are more important than the physical age of a leader. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 23:09:20 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: <336AAC60.1C85@sprynet.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > >Can we expect TS also have a young leader, not some old retired person. > > If you're thinking of young people in the sense that they might be more > imaginative and innovative, I'm with you. But to me those qualities are more > important than the physical age of a leader. Well, Emily Sellon and Fritz Kunz are both dead, now. I don't know if there is anyone out there who has the confidence of the benefactors and the knowledge and imagination to go forward. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 23:57:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An Interesting Talk by Krishnaji Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970503045723.0068b21c@mail.eden.com> Hi I ran in to the following interesting talk by Krishnaji. It appears that many things he touched upon in 1921 seem to be relevant even today. No matter whether one considers Krishnaji as the vehicle for the World Teacher or not, it appears that there is message of practical significance to anyone. MKR ================================================== Delivered at Benares, India on December 28th, 1921, by J. Krishnamurti As it is December 28th, you are all probably expecting something miraculous, and I am afraid you will be rather disappointed, because I am a very matter-of-fact person, and I want to present you with a common-sense point of view. I want you to leave this meeting to-day, to go away, with a perfect understanding of what a World- Teacher is. As you will notice in the principles of the Order of the Star in the East, we specially declare that a World Teacher is coming, not a particular Teacher. We to be universal, and not sectarian; we want to be international, not national; we want to embrace all nationalities - it does not matter what our colour, religion or evolution may be. What does matter is that we should have a common goal, a common ideal for which to work, and a common inspiration to give us energy, creative force, without which we as an Order can do nothing in the world. I am not going to say anything this morning which will give mere happiness, mere satisfaction to the suffering soul, because no individual, it does not matter who he is - a Buddha, a Christ, a Krishna - can give that happiness from the outside. What He can do - and does do - is to awaken the Divinity which abides in each one of us, a Divinity which shows the path to true Enlightenment, to true happiness. Now, it is of no avail to read books, as we Brahmans are apt to do, and to practice meditation, which lulls our conscience to sleep; what is wanted, and what we must do, if we are going to do anything in the world as an active body to make the world better, is to dig deep down into ourselves first; we must make ourselves perfect before we can make the world perfect. What I mean by that is that we must think out for ourselves, in the light of the knowledge that we already possess, the various problems that exist in the world nowadays. Any problem, of whatever dimensions it may be, will dwindle down to this: Do we regard it personally or impersonally? If we take it personally, I think we are not acting as true Star members. We must study all our questions impersonally. Each one of us has that Divinity within which shows us the path to Enlightenment. Why is it that Divinity is more often asleep than awake? Because we are children, not men who can suffer. We do not like to face suffering; not one of us is capable of real suffering. We hold up a coloured glass before the sun because we dare not look the sun in the face. We like to hide the truth which cleanses, which purifies, which makes us big, which makes us supreme and happy; we like to cover up our Divinity with trivialities. We like to busy ourselves the whole day long with the little things of life, little things that are of no consequence, little angers, little worries, little happinesses that we shall be ashamed of in a few years' time. We like to pacify the waking consciousness with false ideas and false conceptions of greatness. How many of us are earnestly longing for true enlightenment? Very few. We think we are longing for it, but the moment suffering comes we shrink back. We prefer to be of the multitude which goes on slowly, century after century. You may smile and nod your heads in agreement with what I say, but the stage of passive acquiescence has passed; it has lasted for the past ten years. What is wanted to-day is action. A sword must be put into us. This is the truest compassion. Compassion must hurt if it is to rouse the Divinity within. You cannot kindle a fire by covering it with damp wood and dirt, and, metaphorically, this is what we have been doing; we have quenched the Divinity within us by covering it with all kinds of impurities, with little smallnesses, with little pleasures which we call happiness. We have been children, content to play with toys. Do not let us be children any longer, but with powerful effort set ourselves seriously to climb the mountain without looking back. At present we are always looking back to the things of the world, because we do not understand the things of another world. All the books have taught us that perfection is to be reached by looking within ourselves, yet is our gaze ever turned outwards. Now, we have all joined the Order of the Star in the East, and the Theosophical Society, because we are looking for happiness which is not of this world, and yet, when the other happiness looms for a moment in front of us, we are incapable of seizing it. We are afraid, because we are not quite sure that it is really happiness, and because we like to cling to something that is near and that we know. Every member of the Order of the Star in the East should develop a special attitude towards life. He should look at all things pleasant or unpleasant, through impersonal eyes. Most of us are inclined to take a personal view about people and questions we do not like, and yet to pride ourselves about our impersonal attitude towards what pleases us. This is the first attitude to develop - to be impersonal towards all questions of life, and I should like us to exercise it every moment of life; for that is where the test comes. The great opportunities are rare. It is in training ourselves in daily life that we can compass the great things. We cannot be great suddenly; through slow and painful processes only can we become great. Now, the second point is that we all realise that the World-Teacher is the personification of Compassion and Wisdom. We know it instinctively; and, consequently if we are to imitate that Supreme Being, we must develop the qualities which He Has. First let us take the quality of pity. We must develop that peculiar kind of pity, the pity that changes what needs changing. We all pity people from a distance. We pity the poor, and we pity the suffering; but what are we doing for them? We get up on platforms, and we read books; but what are we *really* doing to abolish this abomination of starvation which exists all around us? What do we do as a body, as the Order of the Star in the East? What we want, and what we must have, is a body of people able to go to the root of the evil. It is not sufficient just to give food; you must also bring inspiration to the man who is at present starving - mentally, as well as physically. We have so to change social conditions that this same man may not only be fed, but may have leisure to think and to develop himself. This brings us back, as always, to education. We, as a body, must proclaim this principle, that education is the right of every person born into the world, and we must work to realise it. If you do not deal with the root, how can you kill I a poisonous thing? Therefore I hope the National Secretaries will occupy themselves with this question: a you must help them, not by merely subscribing to the principle, but by doing, in your little places, where you are, great things; by being active, not passive. "Passive as the Indian" - that must cease. We must be active - like the Americans are, like the Western people are. They are far more Theosophical than we are, for they are trying to remove this suffering of the poor. What are we doing in this country ? As you go down the streets of Benares you see some awful and painful sights, and we Star members have existed years in this country, yet that sight of pain has not been stopped. It will be stopped, because compassion and pity will conquer everything in some far-off future. But do not leave the suffering man to the far-off future. He does not want his suffering to last so long; and it is our duty, who are a little happy, to share our happiness with the man in the street." The main thing that we want to develop is the pity that understands, that is dominated by tolerance - a tolerance that is full of imagination. We all are tolerant towards those with whom we agree. That is easy. It is because we have no imagination that we lose tolerance. We Indians boast that we have imagination, but I am sorry to say that the majority of Indians are intolerant people. We are all about the same - English and Indians, East and West. We must evolve together. We must train this imagination along particular lines, the line, that makes us realise another person's feelings, look at questions from another's point of view - not through our own eyes. We have been too long accustomed to that habit. We must train ourselves to look from an English point of view from time to time. The moment has come when there is surging a wave of international feeling throughout the world. We must show to people that there is a greater ideal than nationalism. That is our duty - to show to the world that the goal of internationalism is eventually the goal for humanity. India must, naturally, pass through nationalism, but let that nationalism be clean, be devoid of bloodshed. Then I want to deal with politics here for a moment, if you will allow me. We must be able to co-operate with the Co-operator and with the Non-Co-operator. I myself am a Co-operator, but I respect the man who non-co-operates, because that is his point of view; I respect him because he has grit enough to think for himself. I do not want you to think that, because I am a Co-operator, the Order is expected to adopt that point of view. It cannot; it is international body, and I, who am for the moment at the head of the Order, cannot, and will not, make the Order either one or the other, and you will not force me I am sure, to put myself in a very awkward position. There are people in the Order of many nationalities; English, French, German, etc.; and if we make the Order either one or the other through our little foolishnesses, the Order will crumble: it will cease to be the fountain of inspiration to so many, as it is now. So I beg you to be careful. Do not make the Order sectarian, either be careful. Do not make the Order sectarian, either Co~operator or Non-Co-operator. Let each individual choose for himself; and leave the other, respect the other, who thinks differently from him. This is what I mean by tolerance. He is as big as you are: do not make him as little as you are. And from those who are Non-Co-operators I would ask the same. What we want in the Order is Co-operation with all the world. We cannot stand alone. If we stand alone we shall fall. We cannot evolve without guidance from all people. Consequently I beg you to be very careful about this. Do not rush to conclusions with unnecessary precipitation. Think carefully over what you should do and what you should not do; and if you decide one thing or the other, respect the man who thinks the contrary, and treat him like a gentleman and not like an inferior being, but as your equal. Treat him as you would treat a God; respect him as you would respect yourself. Next, to find in the Order throughout the world - it does not matter where - a lack of common sense. People think that they can leave common sense outside when they join the Order. When we are dealing with spiritual force, you must have all the common sense which you can, and more. You must be positive and not negative. And if you want to be spiritual - and each one of us must be spiritual - we must have common sense, for without common sense we are apt to be credulous, to believe anything that comes along. And if the Order is to be a body of great spiritual force - which I hope it will be - it must possess more common sense than the ordinary business man of the world possesses. If we had more common sense, we should laugh at ourselves from time to time. At present we take ourselves too seriously. We do not laugh at our ideas. I laugh at my own ideas very often. It does sometimes help to laugh at one's self. It brings us down to realities and makes us face the truth. Sentimentality and grave faces do not imply spirituality; but common sense we must have, or we shall fall, and fall heavily. The other day a French member told me that the coming Teacher would certainly be a white man, probably a Frenchman. I smiled and wished it as a joke; but I want to ask you a question. Would you receive the World-Teacher if He was in a white skin, if He put on trousers instead of a dhoti and kurtha? Think it out. Would you? We are full of little prejudices that stand in our way. What does it matter of what nationality He is, of what colour, so long as He is great and shows us the Path? But unfortunately we are so carried away by our little emotions that we forget all these things when the moment of trial comes - like a friend of mine, who is a great Theosophist when a friend of has died - a very dear friend - he was so overwhelmed with sorrow that he forgot Theosophy and all its teaching, and crumpled up like a flower in the sun. That is where we must be careful. When the moment of trial comes, we must stand up like Theosophists and Star members, and not like the snow that disappears with the ray of sunshine. Therefore, I'd would ask you: Would you receive the Christ, the World-Teacher, if He were in a Chinese body? People may laugh, I know; but I want you to think it over, to examine yourselves, and think it out. What will be your attitude? I do not know what He is going to be. He may be a woman; and I can see men smile, especially Indians, who treat women - well, I will not go into it, because it is a painful subject. What will they think? So be prepared; that is what we want. Be prepared to look at everything from an impersonal point of view. There here is a vague idea throughout the Order that it is sufficient to put on a star, and to believe vaguely in the Coming of a World-Teacher. I tell you it is not enough. Symbols are outside things. Do not put them on and look sentimental. That is not enough. What we want is that we should have the Star impressed on the heart, where it can bleed and make us suffer, and make us realise that there is a World-Teacher Who looks at us every moment of the day, from the far-off mountain top, Who watches every moment of the day our daily life. Imagine that He is standing beside you every moment - as, indeed, I am sure He is. And with that point of view, with that idea in your mind, behave as though He were standing by you, as though His blessing, His compassion, were always with you. Do not put Him on the top of the mountain and merely look at Him from time to time. Treat Him as your friend, treat Him as a Man. Do not always put your head down and look at His big toe. That will not help you. Ask Him, as a man should ask a man, to give you strength, to give compassion. We have not lived enough: our soul is little, and we must be great to understand greatness. Treat the World-Teacher as an example to be followed not as an image to be looked at. He is the Leader, and you must show that you are His followers, but not the blind followers that we are at present. We shall into our turn be leaders, great leaders; and to be His followers to be His real friends, we must be greet ourselves, not small. We must be an example to others who do not see the World-Teacher. We must be a lighthouse on a dark and perilous shore; we must give light to others. Then only shall we be worthy of really being a member of the Star =============end======= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:01:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Historical Question Message-ID: <970503010104_1456457309@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-02 22:06:21 EDT, you write: >This appears to have been written in 1921 or around that time. > >Is their anyone who knows the "real" troubles that took place in the TSA. > >For any one interested in historical issues, this may be very interesting. > > I'm unsure of the details but I believe there was a big fight over the funding of the Krotona property that led to a near split in the American Section at that time. The Theosophical Messenger from that time has a lot of correspondence about it and I read it about 11 years ago, so that would be where to look. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:18:18 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Historical Question Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970503051818.006d1a64@mail.eden.com> At 12:56 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-02 22:06:21 EDT, you write: > >>This appears to have been written in 1921 or around that time. >> >>Is their anyone who knows the "real" troubles that took place in the TSA. >> >>For any one interested in historical issues, this may be very interesting. >> >> > >I'm unsure of the details but I believe there was a big fight over the >funding of the Krotona property that led to a near split in the American >Section at that time. The Theosophical Messenger from that time has a lot of >correspondence about it and I read it about 11 years ago, so that would be >where to look. > >Chuck the Heretic > Thanks Chuck. If the TM is an publication of TSA, then it may not contain the details of the fundamental and underlying real issues behind the fight. Party people are not likely to discuss any of them either. Some historian like Jerry may be able to help. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:22:34 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970503052234.006b98c4@mail.eden.com> At 11:04 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >liesel f. deutsch wrote: >> >> >Can we expect TS also have a young leader, not some old retired person. >> >> If you're thinking of young people in the sense that they might be more >> imaginative and innovative, I'm with you. But to me those qualities are more >> important than the physical age of a leader. > > Well, Emily Sellon and Fritz Kunz are both dead, now. I don't know if >there is anyone out there who has the confidence of the benefactors and >the knowledge and imagination to go forward. > > Bart Lidofsky > I feel that if a young very charismatic and able (and non political) leader were to emerge, the benefactors will support. The benefactors are really committed to Theosophy and TSA and it is only a question of right person to show up on time. (With all the road blocks placed to "protect" the property of TSA, some bending of the rules may become necessary when the situation arises and such a charismatic leader may even be able to change the Bylaws as it stands now). Let us all pray and hope. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:24:35 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970503052435.006a2188@mail.eden.com> At 09:23 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Can we expect TS also have a young leader, not some old retired person. > >If you're thinking of young people in the sense that they might be more >imaginative and innovative, I'm with you. But to me those qualities are more >important than the physical age of a leader. > >Liesel > A dumb uncharismatic young man or woman would not do. I hope when the right (non political) person shows up, we all have the intuition to recognize the leader. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:14:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Wierd Lately? Message-ID: <970503121458_640186257@emout05.mail.aol.com> With Pluto, the planet of transformation, death (at least symbolically), revolution, etc. beginning a tortuous (so far) transit opposite my Ascendant, life has been beyond weird!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stay tuned to see whatever it is that I'll turn into besides stark raving mad. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:28:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: <970503122855_-1935033302@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-03 02:28:36 EDT, you write: >I feel that if a young very charismatic and able (and non political) leader >were to emerge, the benefactors will support. > > HA!!!!! If a young, charismatic and able leader were to emerge the powers that be would do everything they could to block him. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:30:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Weird lately? Message-ID: <970503123018_146852907@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-03 03:15:26 EDT, you write: >I thought you had a foot pump for those dolls ... > > Not so loud. Kathleen gets jealous! Chuck the heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:19:22 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: Some thoughts about The Festivals Message-ID: <19970503171921951.AAA267@meta.treknet.is> >Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 06:35:58 EST >From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) >As others pointed out, CWL's Masters & the Path is the "mainstream" TS work >discussing the Wesak ceremony. There are 90 or so web addresses matching a >web search on "Wesak", although some of them seem to be down. Most of them >draw heavily from the Alice Bailey works, and references to Wesak are >scattered throughout many of those books. The Wesak information has been >correlated from them into a 22 page brochure by the publisher, and is >available w/o charge from Lucis Trust, 120 Wall St., 24th fl., New York >New York 10005. > >According to Bailey, the Wesak Festival is the 2nd of three full moon >festivals that make up the Higher Interlude cycle of the spiritual year. >The 1st is Easter (Aries) and the 3rd is this month's full moon of Gemini on >May 22nd. The 3rd Festival is also known as World Invocation Day, and the >idea of the three Spiritual Festivals (and the lesser festivals at the other >nine moons) is one of the main differences between the Bailey teachings and >"orthodox" Theosophy. > >Jim > There is another presentation of the theory of Spiritual Festivals which assumes that the main Spiritual Festivals are four times a year. These times are at: winter solstice, vernal equinox, summer solstice and autumnal equinox. And to each of those four Cardinal Signs Festivals there are two related festivals. By The Ancient Northern Cosmogony the winter solstice festival is believed to be the most spiritual of all the Great Festivals. It is believed to be the Great Event when The Sun God - The Solar Logos - looks into the lives of men, in all the worlds. There in, we have the explanation of the legend of "Jola-Sveinn" or in other words; Santa Claus. Jol - The Christmas Festival, is not connected to the time of full moon. "The 3rd Festival" referred to - connected with the full moon of Gemini, - and also known as "The World Invocation Day," or "The Christ Festival," is every seventh year moved to and celebrated at Christmas; the Greater Festival period at the winter solstice. And then, "The World Invocation Day" is not connected with the period of full moon. But if it happens to fall into the period of full moon, then it will be a greater time of opportunity. Sveinn Freyr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:49:30 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: More about Wesak Message-ID: <19970503194929904.AAA339@meta.treknet.is> It is a custom in many T. S. Lodges and study groups, to give attention to The Wesak Festival by lectures, meditation and reverence. Therefore, I wish to present here the short text from the Teaching of Gotama Buddha, about "Metteyya Bodhisatta - The Coming Buddha." "Now in those days, brethren, there shall arise in the world an Exalted One by name Metteyya ( the Kindly One ), an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One, endowed with wisdom and righteousness, a Happy One, a World-knower, the peerless Charioteer of men to be tamed, a Teacher of the devas and mankind, an Exalted One, a Buddha like myself. He of his own abnormal powers shall realize and make known the world, and the worlds of the devas, with their Maras, their Brahmas, the host of recluses and brahmins, of devas and mankind alike, even as I do now. He shall proclaim the Norm, lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle, and lovely in the end thereof. He shall make known the wholly perfect life of righteousness in all its purity, both in the spirit and in the letter of it, even as I do now. He shall lead an Order of Brethren numbering many thousands, even as I do now lead an Order of Brethren numbering many hundreds. D.N. iii. 76, From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 17:32:15 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More about Wesak Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970503223215.006bf33c@mail.eden.com> At 03:45 PM 5/3/97 -0400, Sveinn Freyr wrote: >It is a custom in many T. S. Lodges and study groups, to give attention to >The Wesak Festival by lectures, meditation and reverence. In India, there is also a tradition in lodges that the members meet on the Wesak evening either in the Lodge or in the residence of one of the members and remember the Lord and His Enlightenment and have light supper (vegetarian). I now remember several times this happened in our home. It was so long ago that I completely forgot. We as kids used to enjoy the visitors to our home. I do miss all that in the USA where it is not a tradition at least in the Lodges in which I have been a member. It would be interesting to hear the customs and traditions in other countries of the world. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:28:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: I'm baaaaaack! Message-ID: <970503192851_-733606634@emout20.mail.aol.com> Well, after a day and a night of battling the netcom demons, the Terrible Uncle Chuckie has returned in a new incarnation. Gnashing of teeth in certain quarters as appropriate. Uncle Chuckie From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 22:26:47 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: I'm baaaaaack! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970504032647.006bec38@mail.eden.com> At 07:24 PM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >Well, after a day and a night of battling the netcom demons, the Terrible >Uncle Chuckie has returned in a new incarnation. > >Gnashing of teeth in certain quarters as appropriate. > >Uncle Chuckie > Glad to see you back. Some time ago a friend of mine had signed up with Microsoft Network - yes he got free software with the machine and also the "free" trial period. Somehow his pass word got messed up and could not retrieve anything for several days. The toll free number was always busy. I even sent a couple of e-mail msgs on his behalf and was directed to call the same toll free number. After several days finally the pass word problems was fixed. This is what happens when you deal with large nationwide outfits. I have always dealt with a local provider who can fix the problem in a snap. One time I was even given the owner's cell phone number so that if there is a problem I can call. This is in addition to having the beeper number of the manager in charge here. What I found was that if we are looking for efficiency and support, nothing beats a local entrepreneur run operation. Every one who has consulted me has signed up with the local ISP. One time they even sent one of their technicians to a customers home twice to make sure the access is working ok. This is at no extra charge. Just wanted to share my experience. MKR PS: When I signed up for Internet service it was activated in 5 minutes. All I had to give was major credit card number over phone. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:43:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: I'm baaaaaack! Message-ID: <970504004344_-1567714538@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-03 19:44:23 EDT, you write: > >Well, after a day and a night of battling the netcom demons, the Terrible >Uncle Chuckie has returned in a new incarnation. > >Gnashing of teeth in certain quarters as appropriate. > >Uncle Chuckie > > AAAAARG!!!!!!!! That's what I get for having that third martini before doing my e-mail. Sorry, Wrong list. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 22:25:39 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Karma Message-ID: <199705040525.WAA25024@palrel1.hp.com> On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:48:58 -0500 M K Ramadoss wrote: > This evening when I had some opportunity to ponder over principle or law > of Karma, I was struck with its complexity, at least from a theoretical > point of view since I do not have any first hand knowledge as to how > laws of Karma work. > The immense complexity is easy to see. For example we interact with our > families and affect them and are affected by them. Similarly we interact > with our neighbors, friends, strangers, business associates, teachers, > students etc etc. [snip] > This is just for one individual. When we take into account millions of > individuals, the fundamental issue for me is one of orchestrating all > this and keeping track of the "accounting". An interesting post, Doss. When you look at it that way, the idea of orchestrating it all does seem rather mind boggling. > This brought up the possibility. May be in the 3 dimensional world and > the knowledge we have, the whole thing looks very immense and > staggering. May be in a higher dimension, one can see how all the > accounting is going on. Accounts of NDE (Near Death Experiences) hint that that may be true. Many NDE-ers report knowing at an instant their whole life history. "Thinking" outside our gravity world appears to be holographic, or to misuse and abuse computer terminology, "massively parallel processing". As far as what to do in our "box system" (to paraphrase Jung's description of life in the world after his NDE), we can gain a better perspective on our own karmas, I think, by cultivating better values. Desiring things that are trivial or unnecessary complicates our thinking. Holding onto resentments, looking for scapegoats for our troubles, or thinking on misfortunes as our "punishment", etc., all make the world look terribly complicated and unfair. It also distracts us from the soul thread of our life. Patience is also helps gain a perspective on the bewildering aspects of karma. Sometimes it's only long after an event that we can fit it into the picture frame of our lives. More than one wise person has said in their later years that they would not change one thing in their lives - even their mistakes and misfortunes. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 00:57:40 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Naming names Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970504055740.006a9c34@mail.eden.com> At 11:21 PM 4/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> In message <335D609C.4A78@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky >> writes >> >> One of the Trustees of K Trusts (who was a party to the litigation) is >> >> now on the Board of TSA as well as a Trustee of Theosophical Investment >> >> Trust which manages the Investments of TSA. >> > >> > Now here's the thing. The way I work is that, if I knew the name of the >> >person, I would directly ask him or her what the story was. >> >> A very good point. Doss has mentioned this many times on the list, but >> although asked directly, seems unwilling to name the person whose >> identity is so strongly hinted at. Well, Doss??? > > I asked Michael Gomes about it. I will get the actual names when he can >look up the proper spelling, but according to him, the situation was >largely Krishnamurti vs. his business partner. The person who was >involved with both trusts was not a trustee but in fact a lawyer, who >was hired because of his familiarity with Theosophy. Finally, millions >of dollars sounds like a lot of money, but remember that Krishnamurti >was a BILLIONaire. > > Bart Lidofsky I did some research. The key person involved in the Trusts was D. Rajagopal. He was the President (and I believe in total control of) the Krishnamurti Writings Inc., K&R Foundation, and AB Trust -- all the three are charitable tax exempt trusts. Rajagopal was one of the "finds" of CWL (from India) who was said to be St. Bernard of Clairvaux and had a still more wonderful future -- he was to be a Buddha probably succeeding Krishnamurti on Mercury. Soon after CWL found him he was put on Probation according to CWL. Also he was announced as one of the 12 Apostles for the Coming World Teacher. Rajagopal was sent to Cambridge for education (TS or Order of the Star of East paid his expenses) and was admitted to the Bar. Later he went to Ojai to help Krishnaji in administrative matters and was his business manager. I do not think Krishnaji ever had a business partner, to the best of my knowledge. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 01:12:24 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Karma Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970504061224.006b6860@mail.eden.com> At 01:17 AM 5/4/97 -0400, Titus Roth wrote: >On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:48:58 -0500 M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> This evening when I had some opportunity to ponder over principle or law >> of Karma, I was struck with its complexity, at least from a theoretical >> point of view since I do not have any first hand knowledge as to how >> laws of Karma work. > >> The immense complexity is easy to see. For example we interact with our >> families and affect them and are affected by them. Similarly we interact >> with our neighbors, friends, strangers, business associates, teachers, >> students etc etc. > >[snip] > >> This is just for one individual. When we take into account millions of >> individuals, the fundamental issue for me is one of orchestrating all >> this and keeping track of the "accounting". > >An interesting post, Doss. When you look at it that way, the idea of >orchestrating it all does seem rather mind boggling. > >> This brought up the possibility. May be in the 3 dimensional world and >> the knowledge we have, the whole thing looks very immense and >> staggering. May be in a higher dimension, one can see how all the >> accounting is going on. > >Accounts of NDE (Near Death Experiences) hint that that may be true. Many >NDE-ers report knowing at an instant their whole life history. "Thinking" >outside our gravity world appears to be holographic, or to misuse and abuse >computer terminology, "massively parallel processing". This "fact" has been very clearly described in one of the letters in ML to APS and when it does happen to me personally, I hope I will remember what I have already read. Also, it is my gut feeling that it is the most reasonable and logical thing and it is proper that the whole life is reviewed so that the "high lights" are picked up for future reference. As we look at the complexity of nature, one cannot but recognize the immense intelligence behind it all, whether we want to call it force, god or whatever. >As far as what to do in our "box system" (to paraphrase Jung's description of >life in the world after his NDE), we can gain a better perspective on our own >karmas, I think, by cultivating better values. Desiring things that are >trivial or unnecessary complicates our thinking. Holding onto resentments, >looking for scapegoats for our troubles, or thinking on misfortunes as our >"punishment", etc., all make the world look terribly complicated and unfair. >It also distracts us from the soul thread of our life. This reminds me of what I saw on TV recently. There was a program which discussed about much of the modern day problems, the root cause was that people not being honest. So dishonesty in any degree seem to generate its own set of problems and they go on and on. As they say lying is the refuge of the weak, I totally agree that if we only take responsibility ourselves, then life can become simple and joyful. >Patience is also helps gain a perspective on the bewildering aspects of karma. >Sometimes it's only long after an event that we can fit it into the picture >frame of our lives. More than one wise person has said in their later years >that they would not change one thing in their lives - even their mistakes and >misfortunes. Agree. I have seen that when event happen and they do not go the way you want them to be, we are disappointed. But at a future date, in retrospect, we see the pieces of the puzzle and recognise that what happened is in our own long term interests. Thanks for sharing. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 04:48:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: An Interesting Talk by Krishnaji Message-ID: <970504044817_369450658@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-03 01:48:30 EDT, you write: > > I ran in to the following interesting talk by Krishnaji. It appears that > many things he touched upon in 1921 seem to be relevant even today. No > matter whether one considers Krishnaji as the vehicle for the World Teacher > or not, it appears that there is message of practical significance to anyone. > > > > MKR A thousand thanks for posting Krishnaji's talk!!!!!!!!!!! I'm printing it out and keeping it. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 08:06:22 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An Interesting Talk by Krishnaji Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970504130622.006c1d84@mail.eden.com> At 04:40 AM 5/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-03 01:48:30 EDT, you write: > >> >> I ran in to the following interesting talk by Krishnaji. It appears that >> many things he touched upon in 1921 seem to be relevant even today. No >> matter whether one considers Krishnaji as the vehicle for the World >Teacher >> or not, it appears that there is message of practical significance to >anyone. >> >> >> >> MKR > >A thousand thanks for posting Krishnaji's talk!!!!!!!!!!! I'm printing it out >and keeping it. > >Lynn Glad you liked it. I personally feel that he had tried to point out the importance of practical application of various Theosophical ideas that is what attracted me to his writings and speeches. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 08:17:21 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: dynamic leaders Message-ID: <199705041334.JAA07268@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Well, Emily Sellon and Fritz Kunz are both dead, now. I don't know if >there is anyone out there who has the confidence of the benefactors and >the knowledge and imagination to go forward. > > Bart Lidofsky I agree. Those 2 can't be replaced so easily. Also, Dora, who's still working, is one of a kind. I think John Algeo has a good imagination, and a lot of get up & go. I think he's made some changes for the better. I just listened to a tape our Board made a while ago, I think while Dorothy was still President, the subject being Theosophy in the 21st century. I was singularly unimpressed. The subject of Brotherhood came up. John Algeo said that he thought that language, which is his field, changes with the times. I was glad to hear at least that much. It seems really that the hangup with the brotherhood deal is Adyar. A few more subjects, which we also complain about on theos-l came up, but no earth shaking solutions. And absolutely no new ideas. I was really disappopinted. There are some developments in Wheaton these days which give me hope. I think the best, most recent, is that they're really making an effort to attract young people. I think to do this well, we also need to produce literature which puts Theosophy into language of the same vibrational frequencies as the vibes of today's young people. I understand that the new National Study Center is going just great. They're studying "The Voice...". Enthusiasm there is encouraging. I haven't heard too much anymore about the Theosophical Institute. I thought maybe that would take off and create interest. Yesterday, I also received the latest HCT. Dick Slusser & I have gotten to be good friends over the years, but I sure don't agree with the long article by Geoffrey Farthing he published this time. Geoffrey is of the opinion that the only writings Theosophists should study are the writings of HPB and of the Masters. While I agree that these should be studied, I think confining oneself to just that literature is stultifying. I think that a belief system which is incapable of growing and modifying over 100 some odd years may as well be dead. It can only be a fossil, if it doesn't stimulate others to express their own thoughts and views about it. I still think that if, for instance, we take seriously studying unexplained phenomena in nature and in "man" (as part of nature), we have to look past HPB and the Masters ...use them as a frame of reference, but add whatever new things human beings are poking into at the moment. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:12:19 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: On Sat, 3 May 1997, M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Well, Emily Sellon and Fritz Kunz are both dead, now. I don't know if > >there is anyone out there who has the confidence of the benefactors and > >the knowledge and imagination to go forward. > > > I feel that if a young very charismatic and able (and non political) leader > were to emerge, the benefactors will support. HA! I say HA! The chances of such a person emerging are already exceedingly slim, and getting slimmer every day. The problem is that the TS apparently still hasn't noticed that its the 20th century, and almost the 21st ... not the 19th. There are thousands of organizations around the world currently that are out there ... running full tilt to put into *practice* the altruism, humanism, and aid to "poor orphan humanity" that the TS preaches. There are young, dynamic, charismatic and very able folks all over ... but *why* would they want anything to do with the political crap, institutional nepotism, philosophical inbreeding, shadowy little self-important ES cabal and intellectual condescension they'd have to wade through before they'd be permitted to begin to make even the slightest difference in the TS? Charismatic and competent personalities generally know full well their own value, and when they go to choose their avenue of service (if, that is, they choose to work with a group instead of beginning their own) they seek a place that will be a foundation ... not a chain. The TS generates a lot of nice rhetoric about wanting new fresh blood (and in fact, will likely die without it) ... but in a thousand overt and subtle ways radiates a vibration that downright repels any such infusion. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:45:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970504154544.00692750@mail.eden.com> At 11:04 AM 5/4/97 -0400, JRC wrote: >On Sat, 3 May 1997, M K Ramadoss wrote: >> > Well, Emily Sellon and Fritz Kunz are both dead, now. I don't know if >> >there is anyone out there who has the confidence of the benefactors and >> >the knowledge and imagination to go forward. >> > >> I feel that if a young very charismatic and able (and non political) leader >> were to emerge, the benefactors will support. > >HA! I say HA! The chances of such a person emerging are already >exceedingly slim, and getting slimmer every day. The problem is that the >TS apparently still hasn't noticed that its the 20th century, and almost >the 21st ... not the 19th. There are thousands of organizations around the >world currently that are out there ... running full tilt to put into >*practice* the altruism, humanism, and aid to "poor orphan humanity" that >the TS preaches. There are young, dynamic, charismatic and very able folks >all over ... but *why* would they want anything to do with the political >crap, institutional nepotism, philosophical inbreeding, shadowy little >self-important ES cabal and intellectual condescension they'd have to wade >through before they'd be permitted to begin to make even the slightest >difference in the TS? > >Charismatic and competent personalities generally know full well their own >value, and when they go to choose their avenue of service (if, that is, >they choose to work with a group instead of beginning their own) they seek >a place that will be a foundation ... not a chain. > >The TS generates a lot of nice rhetoric about wanting new fresh blood (and >in fact, will likely die without it) ... but in a thousand overt and >subtle ways radiates a vibration that downright repels any such infusion. > -JRC If we look back historically, *all* great movements were by people who were either young or in their prime of life. Look at Buddha. He left on his search as a young prince. Christ was in his early thirtees when he started his mission. Shankaracharya, considered to be the greatest of all *real* reformers of Hinduism, started his mission when he was 16 and ended when he was I believe 32 or 33. Both HPB and HSO were I belive in their mid forties when they launched TS and Theosophy. We can go on and on. If we look at TS, in most countries is lead rarely by anyone young. It appears that in the minds of some people, age and grey hairs are equated with wisdom. It may equate with the practical machinations of the day to day world and experience with playing the tricks that you normally see in the business world and not any wisdom. I am sure all of you have seen this. I do not have to give examples. As really intelligent men and women, I think it is time to start brain storming -- not an incestuous brain storming -- may be somewhere along we will find solutions. If we do not, then the real work will be taken over by other outfits. May be we should keep all our eyes and ears and intuition open so that when we see the next push we can recognize instantly and not blinded by our preconceptions and predetermined answers and unfounded beliefs. Just my thoughts even though it may look like trash to some. Your mileage and direction may vary. Thanks for your thoughts. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:22:15 -0400 From: joyce bays Subject: Karma, Message-ID: <01BC5886.4AB88580@ost160.capecod.net> Hi , I am new to this list and kind of new to Theosophy also. I enjoyed reading your views on Karma. Most people who know me and of my past life would say I would be foolish not to take an opportunity to have changed it. But as I look back upon my life I know that all the hardships and troubles are what created this person me. If things were different then I would not have learned the lessons I needed to learn this life time. Nor would I be me. I do not think I would have liked the other me as much as I like this me. the seeker. I have been blessed with a talent of being able to look back on life and seeing where the threads of my life are leading. I do enjoy sitting back every now and then to view my own private show. Peace Joyce Attachment Converted: "C:\TEMP\WINMAIL.DAT" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:31:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: <970504133059_-198464252@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-04 11:24:21 EDT, you write: > but *why* would they want anything to do with the political >crap, institutional nepotism, philosophical inbreeding, shadowy little >self-important ES cabal and intellectual condescension they'd have to wade >through before they'd be permitted to begin to make even the slightest >difference in the TS? Maybe they have a well-developed sense of irony. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:37:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: euser@euronet.nl (Martin_Euser) Subject: New files on WWW (mostly in Russian) Message-ID: <199705041737.TAA00398@euronet.nl> > From: Kay Ziatz > Subject: New files on WWW Hello Martin! Please forward it. For russian readers of THEOSL-L, ALT.THEOSOPHY & etc. New files at "Jack of the Box library" http://www.topaz.kiev.ua/users/kirill ftp://www.topaz.kiev.ua/pub/doc/jack_lib http://193.124.73.165/~alex/lib/ ftp://193.124.73.164/pub/mirror/lib/ All files here are in Russian, expect those which especially marked. Passed through fileecho XDOCASTRO SILAMYSL.ZIP E.Pisareva. Thought power & thoughtforms HPLET.ZIP HPB letter on christianity UPANISAD.RAR Some upanishades VNE-TELA.ZIP FAQ about OOBE LECHEBN.ZIP How our grandfather cured - Receipts of traditional medicine ASANY.RAR Some asanas for meditation, w/photos, from "Yog Rashmi" (engl) KABB_FAQ.ZIP Kabbalah FAQ (engl) WHM.ZIP A. Bailey. Treatise on white magic EF-MASLA.ZIP Etheric oils & how to use them OKK-PHIL.ZIP H.C.Agrippa. Occult philosophy, book I OSNCIGUN.ZIP Li Zhungyuy. Basics of Tzigun sciense OSN-YOGI.ZIP Ramacharaka. Basics of yogic worldview VIMANY.ZIP Article on vimanas (indian aircrafts) DALAIMED.ZIP Dalai-lama lecture on meditation TRAVAYUR.ZIP Ayurveda recommendation on using plants CLAIR.ZIP C. Leadbeater. Clairvoyance DALPROSV.ZIP Dalai-lama lecture - Path to illumination MYSLFORM.RAR A.Besant, C.Leadbeater. Thoughtforms DERVISHY.HA Idris Shah. Dervish tales. TABELAR.ZIP T. Abelar. The sorceress crossing GRANI-5.HA Crystal faces of Agni-yoga, vol. V GRANI-6.HA Crystal faces of Agni-yoga, vol. VI ALBERT.HA Albert the great. Libellus de alchimia SHAMATHA.HA Jampa Tinley. Shamatha - Basics of tibetian meditation GNOSIS.HA J. Rijkenborg & K. Petri - De gnosis universalis OKKMED.HA Letters on occult meditation received by A. Bailey VISHNU.HA Vishnu-purana, book I. YOGA-SNA Chogyal Namhai Norbu Rimpoche. Yoga of dreaming (Dzogchen) --- PPoint 1.86 * Origin: Choobice fan club (2:5020/360.4) ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/Theosophy/Overview.html -------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 12:43:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Karma, Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970504174308.00bde4e0@mail.eden.com> At 12:16 PM 5/4/97 -0400, joyce bays wrote: > Hi , > >I am new to this list and kind of new to Theosophy also. >I enjoyed reading your views on Karma. > >Most people who know me and of my past life would say I would be foolish >not to take an opportunity to have changed it. But as I look back upon my >life I know that all the hardships and troubles are what created this >person me. If things were different then I would not have learned the >lessons I needed to learn this life time. Nor would I be me. I do not think >I would have liked the other me as much as I like this me. the seeker. > >I have been blessed with a talent of being able to look back on life and >seeing where the threads of my life are leading. I do enjoy sitting back >every now and then to view my own private show. > >Peace >Joyce > > >Attachment Converted: c:\eudora22\attach\WINMAIL.DAT Hi Glad to see your msg. From a very practical standpoint, we are all novices on Karma, Reincarnation and other matters when we truthfully look at our first hand knowledge even though there may be some who are very learned and scholarly on "second, third, ...." hand material. So views and experience of everyone is very valuable however unimportant it may look to some. As an unmoderated list with no control or censor from any organization, you and me and everyone is free to share our views -- whatever they may be without any intereference from anyone. So I look forward to more traffic from you and everyone. One the issue of happenings in our lives, I recall that HP Blavatsky mentioned that if we only pay close attention to all incidents in our lives as they happen and a little bit perceptive, then we can intuit the course of events and once we are able to see that, life makes it easy to deal with and like high and low notes of a well composed music -- metaphorically. Just my thoughts. ...doss aka MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 20:24:18 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: Wierd Lately? Message-ID: Lynn, Pluto has been direct on my second house cusp for the past few months and is now within half a degree of my natal Sun!!! It's been suggested that I'm seriously mentally ill,truly an unpleasant thought. Love and Light Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 13:58:37 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: On Sun, 4 May 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > but *why* would they want anything to do with the political > >crap, institutional nepotism, philosophical inbreeding, shadowy little > >self-important ES cabal and intellectual condescension they'd have to wade > >through before they'd be permitted to begin to make even the slightest > >difference in the TS? > > Maybe they have a well-developed sense of irony. Yes ... I wonder whether the TS is now faced with the same Catch-22 US national politics faces: A system has developed in which the people actually capable of doing those things required to achieve power are those that under no circumstances should be permitted to have it. (-:), -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:20:09 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: dynamic leaders Message-ID: In message <199705041334.JAA07268@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >I still think that if, for instance, we take seriously studying unexplained >phenomena in nature and in "man" (as part of nature), we have to look past >HPB and the Masters ...use them as a frame of reference, but add whatever >new things human beings are poking into at the moment. Me too. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:16:51 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970504154544.00692750@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes > > As really intelligent men and women, I think it is time to start brain >storming -- not an incestuous brain storming -- may be somewhere along we >will find solutions. If we do not, then the real work will be taken over by >other outfits. The real work is very possibly already in the hands of "other oufits." It is even possible that the work is being done by individuals rather than organisations as we know them. All of the names of innovators of their day (Buddha, Jesus, Shankaracharya and others) are those of *singular* individuals. That various movements and organisations followed upon their work has all to often proved to be a mixed blessing. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:17:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: <970504191712_2017333439@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-04 16:11:30 EDT, you write: >Yes ... I wonder whether the TS is now faced with the same Catch-22 US >national politics faces: A system has developed in which the people >actually capable of doing those things required to achieve power are those >that under no circumstances should be permitted to have it. Pretty much so, except that both cases it is impossible to stop them. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 20:18:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: young leaders Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970505011838.006aa844@mail.eden.com> At 03:51 PM 5/4/97 -0400, JRC wrote: >On Sun, 4 May 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >> > but *why* would they want anything to do with the political >> >crap, institutional nepotism, philosophical inbreeding, shadowy little >> >self-important ES cabal and intellectual condescension they'd have to wade >> >through before they'd be permitted to begin to make even the slightest >> >difference in the TS? >> >> Maybe they have a well-developed sense of irony. > >Yes ... I wonder whether the TS is now faced with the same Catch-22 US >national politics faces: A system has developed in which the people >actually capable of doing those things required to achieve power are those >that under no circumstances should be permitted to have it. > (-:), -JRC > While we wait for some major things to take place, let me think of some constructive ideas. 1. While we do what we can locally and individually, can the organization come up with some simple objectives in the short term? 2. We can target and say we are going to have x number of study centers and y lodges and z at large numbers by say year 199X. 3. If it is the intention to reduce the study centers and lodges and increase at large members, then let us tell all our members that this is the plan so we can all work towards it. We can all resign from our lodges and study centers and change our membership to at large, that is easy. 4. If it is the intention to have x number of lodges in each state, then let us say so and see how it can be done. 5. Let us set some targets; such as by year 199X, let us target so that each National Officer is accessible by Internet so that there will be more easy and frequent communication. 6. Let us say we shall have at least x number of visits by visiting lecturers to each lodge and study center each year -- target to be reached by year 199X. Tell everyone this is what is the objective. 7. We can come up with a target say, the National President and First and Second Vice Presidents will visit each lodge/study center x number of times each year. (I am just borrowing the technique Sam Walton perfected in building the Walmart stores.) 8. Let us get x number of travelling lecturers -- not the shuttling lecturers by year 199x. If we cannot find within the country, let us look outside USA. 9. Let us say we are going to produce x number of Certificate Holders in Thesophy by year 199x. 10. Let us make the deliberations of the National Board more open. 11. Let us make most of the lodges and study centers accessible by Internet by year 199x. 12. By year 199x let us target y number of members below the age of 25 years of age. 13. Let us target we are going to have X million dollars in TIT by year 199x. We can all try to find out how this can be achieved. so on and so on. More later. Just some ideas of the top of my head. Your mileage and direction may vary. Any and every idea is welcome. ...Doss aka MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 18:51:41 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Spiritual groups Message-ID: <199705050151.SAA09266@palrel1.hp.com> Alan wrote: > The real work is very possibly already in the hands of "other oufits." > It is even possible that the work is being done by individuals rather > than organisations as we know them. All of the names of innovators of > their day (Buddha, Jesus, Shankaracharya and others) are those of > *singular* individuals. That various movements and organisations > followed upon their work has all to often proved to be a mixed blessing. People will always want to share their spiritual lives in groups. Even Nietzsche's Zarathustra could not glory in his own singular achievement, but had to go down from the mountain: "... at last his heart turned - and one morning he rose with the dawn, stepped before the sun, and spoke to it thus: Great star! What would your happiness be, if you had not those for whom you shine! ... Behold! I am weary of my wisdom, like a bee that has gathered too much honey; I need hands outstretched to take it ... Bless the cup that wants to overflow, that the waters may flow golden from him and bear the reflection of your joy over all the world!" That groups have failed should not discourage us. I would only say that smaller groups are more likely not to become corrupt. In larger groups people that rise to the top are frequently the most aggressive and self-promoting, not the most spiritual. Regarding founders, it is true that if they are exceptional souls they show their merit and charisma early in life. But they do not get dumber with age! Doss wrote: > If we look at TS, in most countries is lead rarely by anyone young. It > appears that in the minds of some people, age and grey hairs are equated > with wisdom. It may equate with the practical machinations of the day to day > world and experience with playing the tricks that you normally see in the > business world and not any wisdom. I am sure all of you have seen this. I do > not have to give examples. My own spiritual teacher became more wise with age. Her most important writings came later in life - as did the writings of many other great men and women. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 06:51:11 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Spiritual groups Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970505115111.006c3bc4@mail.eden.com> At 09:43 PM 5/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >Alan wrote: > >> The real work is very possibly already in the hands of "other oufits." >> It is even possible that the work is being done by individuals rather >> than organisations as we know them. All of the names of innovators of >> their day (Buddha, Jesus, Shankaracharya and others) are those of >> *singular* individuals. That various movements and organisations >> followed upon their work has all to often proved to be a mixed blessing. > >People will always want to share their spiritual lives in groups. Even >Nietzsche's Zarathustra could not glory in his own singular achievement, >but had to go down from the mountain: > >"... at last his heart turned - and one morning he rose with the dawn, >stepped before the sun, and spoke to it thus: > >Great star! What would your happiness be, if you had not those for >whom you shine! ... > >Behold! I am weary of my wisdom, like a bee that has gathered >too much honey; I need hands outstretched to take it ... > >Bless the cup that wants to overflow, that the waters may flow >golden from him and bear the reflection of your joy over all the world!" > >That groups have failed should not discourage us. I would only say that >smaller groups are more likely not to become corrupt. In larger groups people >that rise to the top are frequently the most aggressive and self-promoting, >not the most spiritual. > >Regarding founders, it is true that if they are exceptional souls they >show their merit and charisma early in life. But they do not get dumber >with age! > >Doss wrote: > >> If we look at TS, in most countries is lead rarely by anyone young. It >> appears that in the minds of some people, age and grey hairs are equated >> with wisdom. It may equate with the practical machinations of the day to day >> world and experience with playing the tricks that you normally see in the >> business world and not any wisdom. I am sure all of you have seen this. I do >> not have to give examples. > >My own spiritual teacher became more wise with age. Her most important >writings came later in life - as did the writings of many other great >men and women. > I was speaking of generalities. There are always exceptions to any rule. I agree with what you say. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 15:17:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Younger Generation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970505201752.0072f760@mail.eden.com> Hi The local city council elections in San Antonio was just announced. There were two significant trends that are noticeable. Out of the 10 city council members, 7 of them are under the age of 40. Also for the first time, the majority of the council members are minorities - either Hispanic or African American. Another interesting trend. The days of buying votes with money is fast disappearing. The mayoral candidate with the largest vote spent very little money. The high spender who spent 10 times was defeated soundly even though he is an incumbent. Also the largest vote getter mentioned above is a woman who has battled very popular issues. In the next century, we can see a turnaround everywhere including politics. Will TS take hints from the changed trends? Who knows? MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 15:25:31 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: local access providers Message-ID: <199705052042.QAA07782@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Doss writes from Texas >I have always dealt with a local provider who can fix the problem in a snap I agree! I swtiched from AOL to a local access provider, because AOL never got my problems taken care of, and access was at time extremely slow and expensive. My local provider, dreamscape, doesn't work as fast as Doss' does down it Texas, but I'm very happy with the service just the same. I can get a line right away, or sometimes within a few minutes, and my problems, if any, are taken care of that day. I too prefer the small local provider over the humungous national one, because I find I get much better service. Maybe access to the WWW isn't quite as easy, but I seem to be managing that also quite nicely. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:34:30 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Spiritual groups Message-ID: <5W14mAA2BmbzEwrv@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199705050151.SAA09266@palrel1.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes > >People will always want to share their spiritual lives in groups. Even >Nietzsche's Zarathustra could not glory in his own singular achievement, >but had to go down from the mountain: > >"... at last his heart turned - and one morning he rose with the dawn, >stepped before the sun, and spoke to it thus: > >Great star! What would your happiness be, if you had not those for >whom you shine! ... > >Behold! I am weary of my wisdom, like a bee that has gathered >too much honey; I need hands outstretched to take it ... > >Bless the cup that wants to overflow, that the waters may flow >golden from him and bear the reflection of your joy over all the world!" Of course people want to share what they have found - one reason we are having this discussion! I agree that smaller groups are probably safer than large organisations. Note, though, that the above quote is not a constitution requiring a board of directors, president, big daddy, big momma, etc., but a recommendation ("Bless the cup") to *reflect* ("As in a mirror, darkly," - Paul the apostle). It is not an imperative or an instruction from a "Master." Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:56:13 -0400 From: joyce bays Subject: Spiritual groups Message-ID: <01BC5A03.E1E1BAC0@ost195.capecod.net> HI, People will always want to share their spiritual lives in groups. Even >Nietzsche's Zarathustra could not glory in his own singular achievement, >but had to go down from the mountain: > I have read that it is natural for seekers of the Knowledge to feel lonely and alienated from the world and we should expect it. Until I found such a group as the TS I thought I was alone. Mass is such an orthodox place to live. The shadow of the puritans continue to hang over us. How dearly I would love to have a TS lodge or center here on Cape Cod. I do have reservations for a workshop at Pumpkin Hollow this summer. Will certainly enjoy the fellowship. Peace Joyce Attachment Converted: "C:\TEMP\WINMAIL.DAT" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 10:48:37 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Spiritual groups Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970506154837.00c0530c@mail.eden.com> At 09:48 AM 5/6/97 -0400, joyce bays wrote: > > >HI, > > >People will always want to share their spiritual lives in groups. Even >>Nietzsche's Zarathustra could not glory in his own singular achievement, >>but had to go down from the mountain: >> > >I have read that it is natural for seekers of the Knowledge to feel lonely >and alienated from the world and we should expect it. Until I found such a >group as the TS I thought I was alone. Mass is such an orthodox place to >live. The shadow of the puritans continue to hang over us. How dearly I >would love to have a TS lodge or center here on Cape Cod. I do have >reservations for a workshop at Pumpkin Hollow this summer. Will certainly >enjoy the fellowship. > >Peace >Joyce Hi People with similar interests tend to gravitate to others each other. Unless there is something in common between two people, there is nothing to establish or continue relationships. So no matter how each one of us progress in our own track, the tendency to form a group, however it may be structured is the way things are going to take place. Again it is from this point of view that I find that the present trend in at-large membership not very productive in the long run. As for a lodge in your area, call the TSA at 1-800-669-1571 and they can give you information. Sometimes you will find a stonewall because of the way the secrecy regarding membership information is handled. So don't be surprised. But if you do not find a lodge, a study center can be formed by just three members. You should look into it as well. Glad that you are going to Pumpkin Hollow. Based on my multi-decade experience in the USA and India, in many lodges you will find a very orthodox presentation of Theosophy. It is up to the individual to Think for oneself and that is the only way to really understand theosophy rather than repeat what is second hand information, however true and sacred it may be. Just my thoughts. Your mileage and direction may vary. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:44:30 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World White Lotus Day Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970506194430.00aab588@mail.eden.com> At 10:38 AM 5/6/97 -0700, compass@theosophycompany.org wrote: >Thank you, Sveinn, for drawing our attention to the Wesak Festival and >for the beautiful quotation. There is much in it to dwell upon. > >This is also a time when many theosophists express their gratitude to >H.P.B. in the form of White Lotus Day, the anniversary of her passing on >May 8, 1891. The following quotation is taken from a talk given by B.P. >Wadia: > >"Arise, Awake, Seek the Great Ones, and Learn!" -- is the trumpet call >that H.P.B. has sounded for this cycle. Those who are heedless, not >vigilant, inattentive, as the Buddha says in the *Dhammapada*, are >"already dead"--in heart force, in heart life. We need to rise, to make >ourselves ready for that great journey, whose door, our karma opens now >before us. Inspired by this great example, our future choices may lead >us far along the Path the Great Ones show. The memory of those >life-giving words have to be made an active reverberation in our minds >and hearts, and then those works that we can pledge ourselves to >sustain, become evident. The path is an inner one. Its disciplines >keep us ever-expectant. We do not knw when the Great Ones will appear, >but, we should be ready and willing to meet Them--as H.P.B. did, and >carry out their work for Mankind. The charge that she has left for us >is: to learn, to practice, and to pass on unaltered, those great ideas >to all who will listen. In this way we honor her, and we honor them. > -- B.P. Wadia > > AUM > In two days it will be May 8th and I am glad you reminded us of HPB's passing away on this day. In many lodges in India, there is a celebration of the White Lotus Day to remember HPB. On this day after formal addresses on the contributions of HPB, two short passages - one from Light of Asia and the other from Bhagavat Gita are read and usually the poor is fed on this day. Somehow from time immemorial, in the East, all celebrations have feeding of the poor as a key part, I think is symbolic of the fact a hungry person cannot concentrate on sublime things when he/she is hungry. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 19:58:48 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: An interesting song Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970507005848.00682cfc@mail.eden.com> Hi, here is a nice song. MKR =========================================== Imagine Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living life in peace... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm a dreamer I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one ....John Lennon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 15:46:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: An interesting song Message-ID: <970507153726_-265217675@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-07 03:12:41 EDT, you write: >In India there are a group of sanyasis who are naked and they are in 1000s >and do occassionally visit large cities. I would love to see THAT in the middle of one of our winters! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 15:56:31 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An interesting song Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970507205631.00ab54e4@mail.eden.com> At 03:47 PM 5/7/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-07 03:12:41 EDT, you write: > >>In India there are a group of sanyasis who are naked and they are in 1000s >>and do occassionally visit large cities. > >I would love to see THAT in the middle of one of our winters! > >Chuck the Heretic > They have solve the cold problem as well. In the northern parts of India, it gets very cold. During that time, they cover the whole body with ash and I believe it acts as insulation for the skin. It does not freeze like what you have in Chicago. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 18:25:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: A Note Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970507232544.006dbb2c@mail.eden.com> You know you're an E-mail Junkie if: 1. You wake up at 3 a.m. to go to the bathroom and stop to check your e-mail on the way back to bed. 2. You get a tatoo that reads "This body best viewed with Netscape Navigator 1.1 or higher." 3. You name your children Eudora, Mozillia and Dotcom. 4. You turn off your modem and get this awful empty feeling, like you just pulled the plug on a loved one. 5. You spend half of the plane trip with your laptop on your lap...and your child in the overhead compartment. 6. You decide to stay in college for an additional year or two, just for the free Internet access. 7. You laugh at people with 9600-baud modems. 8. You start using smileys in your snail mail. 9. Your hard drive crashes. You haven't logged in for two hours. You start to twitch. You pick up the phone and manually dial your ISP's access number. You try to hum to communicate with the modem. ...And you succeed. 10. You find yourself typing "com" after every period when using a word processor.com 11. You refer to going to the bathroom as downloading. 12. You start introducing yourself as "JohnDoe at AOL dot com." 13. All of your friends have an @ in their names. 14. Your cat has its own home page. 15. You can't call your mother...she doesn't have a modem. 16. You check your mail. It says "no new messages." So you check it again. 17. Your phone bill comes to your doorstep in a box. 18. You move into a new house and decide to Netscape before you landscape. 19. You tell the cab driver you live at "http://1000.edison.garden/house/brick.html." 20. You start tilting your head sideways to smile. ====================== picked up in e-sphere============================= From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 18:32:55 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: WWJD Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970507233255.006daae0@mail.eden.com> We are all familiar with www. The newest fad is a wristband which is sold by christian specialty stores which has WWJD on it. WWJD - What Would Jesus Do? Does it ring familiar? Put your thoughts next to that of Jesus and try to visualize What Would Jesus Do. I am told these wrist bands are a sell out and are very hard to find. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:21:37 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An interesting song Message-ID: In message <970506232209_-433069692@emout03.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-05-06 22:31:07 EDT, you write: > >>Imagine no possessions >>I wonder if you can > >In other words we run around buck naked in caves. No thanks! > >Chuck the Heretic Oh ... I thought that was what you did. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:24:00 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: White Lotus Day Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970508162400.00683880@mail.eden.com> *********************************************** * * * White Lotus Day - May 8 * * * *********************************************** May 8 is celebrated all over the world in memory of passing of HP Blavatsky. Let us remember this day the enormous sacrifices made by her to bring modern Theosophy to the masses. Very few today know how she was poor and penniless when she landed in New York where she was a stranger and had to fend for herself. Today we have lodges and study centers and members all over the world, even in far of remote places where a Theosophist can always find himself or herself not a stranger in a strange town. This is because of HPB's labors from a practical standpoint. Of course this is in addition to the occult truth she tried to present to the modern world. With this background, let each one of us in our own small way try to put some of what we have learnt, into action so that we can make the world a better place to live. I am sure, whereever she is today -- may even be reading the theos-l maillist -- she would surely approve of such an action on the part of each one of us. After all she sacrificed her entire life to help the suffering humanity to see the light. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:42:29 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: How Dame Fortune affected a person Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970508164229.00686408@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting anecdote of Krishnaji. Some may find it interesting. MKR =========================================================== I had a friend. I knew him in the days before Dame Fortune looked in his direction. For that reason, probably, he was very very nice, kindhearted, and generous in spite of his slender means. Extraordinary how poor people are always generous. He used to talk to me in a kind and pleasant manner about himself and of the things he would do to help the world if ever he had plenty of money. He dressed very quietly and soberly. His voice had a strange touch of humility. It was a delight to listen to him. He was shy, almost timid, and there was no aggressiveness in his eyes. He never looked into the eyes of another unless he had something very serious to say, and that happened only when he was asked definitely for his opinion. He was always in the background listening with a kindly smile. There was a kindness in his face, and it was always a delight to have him in the same room. He was the quiet one, even though the room was thronged with a talkative crowd. He never sat in a comfortable chair. I only saw him once in a cushioned arm chair, but he looked uncomfortable and almost miserable. He sat on the edge of the chair pretending to be at ease. He never wanted to "boss" anybody either by his opinion or by his pleasant personality. When anyone liked him, he looked surprised and wondered why he was liked. When he walked in a crowded street he invariably gave way to the hustling and pushing people. His clothes were good, and if I remember right, he had a good warm overcoat, heavily lined, but inexpensive. He was shy in greeting people, but he was an excellent speaker. His gratitude was touching when someone gave him a lift in their car. We were intimate friends, he used to help me, and I followed his example. Then one day Dame Fortune smiled on him. A distant relation left him money. He came to me directly, and blushingly said he did not know what to do with so much money. We had a discussion as to what he should do with it, and we decided that he should keep the money for awhile. I did not see him for about a week, the longest period that I had not seen him since I have known him; then one day he came to see me. He was extra shy that morning, and I wondered what was the matter. Then my eye caught his highly polished shoes. He had a new smart suit on. In fact, everything new from top to toe of the best. He was rather apologetic in his tone as he said: You know, I had to get a new suit, and so I thought I might as well get a new pair of shoes." We laughed and Joked about it, and then he went off saying that he had a luncheon engagement. I saw him at frequent intervals, and each time I saw him he was different, not only in his manner but in his general appearance. This puzzled me at first, but I gradually wakened to the fact that he had had money, plenty of it, left to him. Then I did not see him again for a couple of months, as I had to go abroad. On my return, I went to a party given by a mutual friend. It was the usual kind of party, plenty of noise, and everyone was on his best behaviour,trying to impress on his neighbour that he was somebody. We all play that game every day of our lives, and it seemed quite natural. My friend, who used to be so shy and so retiring, was holding forth, to a young lady, on the miserable condition of the weather. There was no longer any sign of timidity in his voice, but a certain aggressiveness had crept into it. He was sitting, with his head leaning back, on a soft arm-chair. A slight annoyance, almost imperceptible, appeared in his face as he caught sight of me, but it vanished as quickly as it had appeared. His voice was loud, as though he wanted every one to know that he was there. His mildness had disappeared, and there was that look in his face which said that he was no longer poor but rich, very rich. He laughed loudly, and looked boldly around. Humility was degrading to him now, and his voice sounded as though it wanted to boss. Money was changing him as surely as the wind changes the shape of a cloud, and it was very unpleasant. He passed me in his car; he had a fur coat on and was smoking a cigarette in the most elegant manner. I wonder if he still considers me his friend? We have not seen each other for a long time,but he would not know me now, if I met him, for he has changed. Such is life. "And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." ========================= end ========================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:46:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Mail Bug Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970508164638.00706d64@mail.eden.com> Hi I got some of the msgs yesterday from theos-l just the headers. No body of the msg. I do not know if I am the only one who received such truncated msgs. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:53:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Spiritual groups Message-ID: <970508135211_-733073833@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-08 01:56:20 EDT, I wrote: > Subj: Re: Spiritual groups > Date: 97-05-08 01:56:20 EDT > From: Wildefire@aol.com > Sender: theos-l@vnet.net > Reply-to: theos-l@vnet.net > To: theos-l@vnet.net (Multiple recipients of list) > Honestly folks, I didn't send anything (let alone an empty message) to the list yesterday. Thank goodness Mercury goes direct today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:55:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: WWJD Message-ID: <970508135235_269045344@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-08 01:29:34 EDT, you write: >Does it ring familiar? Put your thoughts next to that of Jesus and try to >visualize What Would Jesus Do. > > That would depend on if he was in the bar or with his favorite prostitute. A few weeks back Art Bell had three remote viewers on and asked them if A: they had ever remote viewed historic stuff and B: if they had remote viewed Jesus. They all said that they had and had the experience of being in the presence of someone very holy. I was tempted to call in and ask if I was the only one who ever remoted viewed him falling down drunk. The Pharisees were right! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:56:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: An interesting song Message-ID: <970508135449_1719674711@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-08 02:08:27 EDT, you write: >>In other words we run around buck naked in caves. No thanks! >> >>Chuck the Heretic > >Oh ... I thought that was what you did. > >Alan NEVER IN CAVES!!!! That's why God created bedrooms. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:59:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: An interesting song Message-ID: <970508135748_1556308707@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-08 03:38:01 EDT, you write: >They have solve the cold problem as well. In the northern parts of India, it >gets very cold. During that time, they cover the whole body with ash and I >believe it acts as insulation for the skin. It does not freeze like what you >have in Chicago. > > I've heard that too. It seems a rather messy solution to the problem. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:03:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: White Lotus Day Message-ID: <970508140018_1189731045@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-08 13:39:52 EDT, you write: >With this background, let each one of us in our own small way try to put >some of what we have learnt, into action so that we can make the world a >better place to live. I am sure, whereever she is today -- may even be >reading the theos-l maillist -- she would surely approve of such an action >on the part of each one of us. After all she sacrificed her entire life to >help the suffering humanity to see the light. > > In honor of which I now have a screen saver that shouts FLAPDOODLE! Which is probably how she would react to most of what we say. Happy White Lotus Day. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 02:25:29 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Bing Escudero's Lecture Program Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970509072529.006f15d4@mail.eden.com> Date Place Contact Phone # ------- ------------------------ -------------- ----------------- May 9 San Antonio, TX Doss McDavid (210)494-6012 Friday White Lotus Day Celebration 8.00 PM May 10 San Antonio, TX Saturday All Day Seminar May 11-13 Dallas, TX Clarice Bauereis (214)263-2701 TBA May 16-18 St. Louis, MO Ken Heskett (314)664-7988 TBA June 15 Dallas Study Center Clarice Bauereis (214)363-2701 Sunday Integrating Esoteric Movements June 19 Mobile, AL 7.00PM Aleta Bourdeaux (334)865-6506 Thursday Essentials Uniting the World Elmo Hammer (334)479-1321 Religions June 22 Florida Federation (1.30-3.30PM) Mohammed Mokhtar (813)399-1032 Sunday Forbidden Teachings of the Ages Winter Park Study Circle 8.00PM Mohammed Mokhtar (813)399-1032 Master Key to Nidanic Autotheraphy June 24 St. Petersburg Branch 8.00PM Mohammed Mokhtar (813)399-1032 Tuesday Understanding the Consciousness Process June 29 Miami Branch 7.00PM Vril Clarin (954)481-5998 Essentials Uniting the World Religions For additional information contact: Rosie at 918-836-2583 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:16:03 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Mail Bug Message-ID: <199705081916.MAA25682@palrel1.hp.com> Like Doss, I only got a mail header and no messages. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:00:59 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: An interesting song Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970508210059.00bee47c@mail.eden.com> At 02:00 PM 5/8/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-08 03:38:01 EDT, you write: > >>They have solve the cold problem as well. In the northern parts of India, it >>gets very cold. During that time, they cover the whole body with ash and I >>believe it acts as insulation for the skin. It does not freeze like what you >>have in Chicago. >> >> > >I've heard that too. It seems a rather messy solution to the problem. > >Chuck the Heretic > I guess those who are adopting the solution seems to be comfortable and happy with it. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:02:16 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: White Lotus Day Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970508210216.00c060e8@mail.eden.com> At 02:04 PM 5/8/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-08 13:39:52 EDT, you write: > >>With this background, let each one of us in our own small way try to put >>some of what we have learnt, into action so that we can make the world a >>better place to live. I am sure, whereever she is today -- may even be >>reading the theos-l maillist -- she would surely approve of such an action >>on the part of each one of us. After all she sacrificed her entire life to >>help the suffering humanity to see the light. >> >> > >In honor of which I now have a screen saver that shouts FLAPDOODLE! Which is >probably how she would react to most of what we say. > >Happy White Lotus Day. > >Chuck the Heretic > Can you make your screen saver available to anyone interested? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:33:02 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Spiritual groups Message-ID: <+XAp2RA+CnczEwiS@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970508135211_-733073833@emout07.mail.aol.com>, Wildefire@aol.com writes >Honestly folks, I didn't send anything (let alone an empty message) to the >list yesterday. Thank goodness Mercury goes direct >today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 > >Lynn A likely story .... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:31:48 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: "And again he said it not" Message-ID: <63CoeNA0BnczEwA5@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970508164229.00686408@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >"And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go > through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter > into the kingdom of God." Scholarly bit: This putative saying of Jesus is almost certainly the result of misinterpretation of Jesus' own language, Aramaic/Hebrew. The Aramaic word GMLA (Heb. GML) can mean (a) Camel (b) Rope. Aramaic speakers even today put this phrase in context and read "rope," not "camel." Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:34:58 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An interesting song Message-ID: <5XzoGVAyEnczEwj9@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970508135449_1719674711@emout07.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >That's why God created bedrooms. So she did; so she did ... get 'em off, Chuck. God [signed] --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:57:32 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: "And again he said it not" Message-ID: <199705090557.XAA09575@mailmx.micron.net> Doss quoted: >>"And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go >> through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter >> into the kingdom of God." Alan responded: >Scholarly bit: This putative saying of Jesus is almost certainly the >result of misinterpretation of Jesus' own language, Aramaic/Hebrew. The >Aramaic word GMLA (Heb. GML) can mean (a) Camel (b) Rope. Aramaic >speakers even today put this phrase in context and read "rope," not >"camel." That's hysterical! For decades, via Catholic school, I've been taught the "camel" version. Forget that the camel version makes little, if any, sense. . .if it's in the Bible, it must be so. If one doesn't understand - that's because it's esoteric - it's just too deep for us 'masses'. . . Why, I thought since it's REALLY HARD for a camel to squish through a needle, a rich man might as well plan on going straight to Satan Land. . .but now to know that Pat Robertson and other great men of wealth may just have a chance to shimmy with me in heaven warms me in a way I cannot describe. . . I bet THEY knew, too! Those interpreters of the Bible - they were just testing us. They're so full of frolic and jolliness. I bet ole' King James, upon discovering the typo, exclaimed "Nay, tarry, leave this as is! Let a smile come upon their face. Fear not, they'll never be daft enough to believe it. . ." Thus Spoke Prozac. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 03:29:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: White Lotus Day Message-ID: <970509032930_437516821@emout02.mail.aol.com> I doubt that I can do that, but it is Afterdark and I just put the thing on the messages section and let it go. Chuck the heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:29:16 EST From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Subject: Re: Camels and Needles Message-ID: <199705111129.2541100@microfone.net> >>>"And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go >>> through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter >>> into the kingdom of God." > >Alan responded: > >>Scholarly bit: (clip) The version I was taught: the "Eye of the Needle" was a colloquial expression, referring to the short archway door in the outer wall of the Temple. The purpose of such a short entryway is that it forced every man to stoop over, or bow, before entering the holy place as a reminder of the proper place of man before his God. According to this version, it would have been *just possible* for a camel to enter through that arch, but it would have been on its knees. So the point of the parable becomes, it IS possible for a rich man to join the brethren of the Kingdom of God, but the process isn't an easy one and it likely doesn't happen very often. :) Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 17:35:56 +0200 From: wichm@xs4all.nl Subject: Spiritual groups Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970509153556.006fe5ec@xs4all.nl> You may be interested to read my page on psychological mechanisms in spiritual groups: http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/psymove.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 22:34:50 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: White Lotus Day at San Antonio, TX Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970510033450.00684498@mail.eden.com> Today evening the White Lotus Day in memory of the passing away of HPB was celebrated at the San Antonio Lodge, Texas. Bing Escudero was the honored guest present. Chapters from Light of Asia and Bhagavat Gita were read and members present spoke about HPB and her contribution to the world and also her sacrifices, the fruits of which all of us are beneficiaries. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:25:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Thoalight@aol.com Subject: Whatever S/He said Message-ID: <970509171804_709163179@emout01.mail.aol.com> Kym: >Thus Spoke Prozac. I could use some right now. I just came back from the mountains, waterfalls and woods of Yosemite (before the deluge of tourists), and for the first time I felt the oneness. When you're face to face with the awesome nature, you feel religion without any words or concepts of religion. Theosophy, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, etc., all goes out the window. Sometimes I think all the concepts created by wo/man was to help wo/man survive things created by wo/man. Anyway, I'm not much for group dynamics nor for God/Goddesses right now. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:31:38 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1015 Message-ID: <970509233138_875050518@emout14.mail.aol.com> I have always valued the "Camel" verse in the Bible because it appears to me to be full of wisdom. I interpret this verse about as follows: "It is easier for a camel (OK, rope then) to pass through the eye of a needle than for an ego (monad, whatever) to ascend to higher planes and be permanently freed from the perceived need to incarnate on lower ones... while still retaining desires that can only be fulfilled on those lower planes." Blavatsky addressed this matter in The Voice Of The Silence when she wrote (approximately, I do not have the source document readily at hand): "The pure waters of spirit cannot with the Monsoon's muddy torrents mingle." FOOD FOR THOUGHT Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:00:55 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: Re: Mail Bug Message-ID: <19970510120054493.AAA260@meta.treknet.is> >>Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:46:38 -0500 >>From: M K Ramadoss >>Subject: Mail Bug >>Hi >>I got some of the msgs yesterday from theos-l just the headers. No body of >>the msg. >>I do not know if I am the only one who received such truncated msgs. >>MKR --------- >Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:16:03 -0700 >From: Titus Roth >Subject: Re: Mail Bug >Like Doss, I only got a mail header and no messages. -------- Same here, I only got a mail header and no messages (of digest no. 1013) Is there a way to get an old mail-digest (by a number) with some command? I would like to study some of the old mail. I know that such a possibility is given for some e-mail magazines. Sveinn Freyr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:39:13 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Eye of the Needle Message-ID: <33748891.2DAB@sprynet.com> DSArthur@aol.com wrote: > "It is easier for a camel (OK, rope then) to pass through the > eye of > a needle than for an ego (monad, whatever) to ascend to higher > planes > and be permanently freed from the perceived need to incarnate > on lower > ones... while still retaining desires that can only be > fulfilled on those > lower planes." Note that the easiest way for a rope to go through the eye of the needle is for the one rope to separate into individual strands, put the strands through the eye of the needle, and then reassemble the rope on the other side. A nice symbol for the prolaya-manvantara-prolaya cycle... Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:13:24 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: How? versus Why? Message-ID: <199705101713.KAA25365@palrel3.hp.com> Listening to a tape by Ann Ree Colton, I heard her say that a whole teaching gives you the How as much as the Why. It clarified something I have clumsily tried to verbalize on what is missing from Theosophy. Some scattered thoughts ... Realization ultimately comes from sharpening one's intuitions by practice, application, failure, re-interpretation. It can happen without ever studying what other seekers have discovered and taught, but it is a much slower process that way. Studying the spiritual heritage of the past alone is insufficient and can be misleading if you do it for egotistical reasons and don't try to apply it with honesty. But it is a great accelerator of progress when you combine it with practice. "Be ye not hearers of the Word only, but doers." Theosophy has too much of the Why of things. There are no practices or disciplines. With a Why alone, one is not involved. With a How, he or she has something to bite into and try. One may dogmatize the How or interpret it rigidly, but that is no reason not to include a How. The tennis example I gave a while ago illustrates. By actually holding and moving your racket according to a suggestion gets you in tune with your body and your style. Once you learn what it feels like to properly connect with the ball, you can depart from the suggestion and develop your own. Technology has also isolated us from experience. We have learned the why of physical laws, but we do not experience Nature as much today. We are more emotionally insulated, for example, from the seasons and their great lessons of birth, death and re-birth. A student who studies a mediocre book, but tries it gains more progress than one who studies a brilliant one but can't apply it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:57:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Seminar at San Antonio, Texas Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970511045708.006ddd5c@mail.eden.com> Today, May 10, 1997, the San Antonio TS Lodge, Texas had a very successful all day seminar which was led by Bing Escudero. It was very well attended and everyone felt the seminar was very useful and helpful. Bing made the trip to San Antonio at his own expense. BTW, the seminar was free to everyone who attended and there was no admission fee of any kind both for members and non members who attended it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:32:58 -0400 From: joyce bays Subject: How? versus Why? Message-ID: <01BC5D57.8B73EEE0@ost206.capecod.net> Although I am New to Theosophy (not the concept) If I interpret it correctly it is meant to guide us to the knowledge not give it to us. To aim us in the direction where we will find it. It tells us look here, look there, and eventually we find that precious pearl. The one we value the most because we found it and worked to obtain it, it wasn't given to us. Peace, Joyce Attachment Converted: "C:\TEMP\WINMAIL3.DAT" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:07:35 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Mail Bug Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970510200735.006cfb50@mail.eden.com> At 08:01 AM 5/10/97 -0400, you wrote: > >>>Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:46:38 -0500 >>>From: M K Ramadoss >>>Subject: Mail Bug > >>>Hi > >>>I got some of the msgs yesterday from theos-l just the headers. No body of >>>the msg. > >>>I do not know if I am the only one who received such truncated msgs. > >>>MKR >--------- >>Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 12:16:03 -0700 >>From: Titus Roth >>Subject: Re: Mail Bug > >>Like Doss, I only got a mail header and no messages. >-------- > >Same here, I only got a mail header and no messages (of digest no. 1013) >Is there a way to get an old mail-digest (by a number) with some command? >I would like to study some of the old mail. > >I know that such a possibility is given for some e-mail magazines. > >Sveinn Freyr > Send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with nothing in the subject and in the body just have one line which says: index theos-l This would send you a list of all digests. Pick the ones you want and send a msg again to theos-l with the following in the body of the msg and leave the subject blank: get theos-l xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx where xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is the exact identification of the digest. That is all to it. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:10:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: How? versus Why? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970510201017.006d678c@mail.eden.com> At 03:32 PM 5/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >Although I am New to Theosophy (not the concept) If I interpret it >correctly it is meant to guide us to the knowledge not give it to us. To >aim us in the direction where we will find it. It tells us look here, look >there, and eventually we find that precious pearl. The one we value the >most because we found it and worked to obtain it, it wasn't given to us. > > >Peace, >Joyce You are right. The real knowledge cannot be given by anyone and has to be discovered by ourselves. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:42:55 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Camels and Needles Message-ID: In message <199705111129.2541100@microfone.net>, Jim Meier writes >The version I was taught: the "Eye of the Needle" was a colloquial >expression, referring to the short archway door in the outer wall of the >Temple. The purpose of such a short entryway is that it forced every man to >stoop over, or bow, before entering the holy place as a reminder of the >proper place of man before his God. According to this version, it would >have been *just possible* for a camel to enter through that arch, but it >would have been on its knees. > >So the point of the parable becomes, it IS possible for a rich man to join >the brethren of the Kingdom of God, but the process isn't an easy one and it >likely doesn't happen very often. :) This is the usual explanation offered, though I have been told that no evidence of the alleged archway has ever been found, and that it is even likely from archaeological research that its existence is impossible. For the record, the [incorrect] translation occurs in the Greek, which has the Greek word for camel. The *Peshitta* Aramaic text is older, and the probability is that a Greek scribe translating from an Aramaic version has made the mistake that could just as easily be made by an English-speaking translator. This is slightly obscure and scholarly stuff, but if you or anyone on the list is interested, I will post some more info. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:53:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Whatever S/He said Message-ID: In message <970509171804_709163179@emout01.mail.aol.com>, Thoalight@aol.com writes >When you're face to face with the awesome nature, you >feel religion without any words or concepts of religion. Theosophy, >Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, etc., all goes out the window. .. and sometimes the smaller but equally wondrous things of nature. Yesterday one of the local dogs I have made friends with jumped up to me and gripped my arm between his paws, at the same time looking up at me with genuine feeling. He didn't *want* anything except to say "Hi, pal!" Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:47:15 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: How? versus Why? Message-ID: In message <01BC5D57.8B73EEE0@ost206.capecod.net>, joyce bays writes >Although I am New to Theosophy (not the concept) If I interpret it >correctly it is meant to guide us to the knowledge not give it to us. To >aim us in the direction where we will find it. It tells us look here, look >there, and eventually we find that precious pearl. The one we value the >most because we found it and worked to obtain it, it wasn't given to us. I often think that the term itself (Theosophy) has become too narrow, and is associated with a specifically doctrinal position. What is sometimes called 'small t' theosophy properly includes all disciplines which may generally be thought of as "god-wisdom" - and one who is *wise* practices wisdom. In fact, what else can be done with wisdom? Wisdom is surely not a cerebral activity, but a living, doing thing, a way of living. In other words, I agree with you! However, maybe we need a wider concept/word/term than "Theosophy" to describe what needs to be done. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:19:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: New National President for TS in Iceland. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970511151917.006ce150@mail.eden.com> At 08:56 AM 5/11/97 -0400, Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B. wrote: >Announcing new National President for TS in Iceland. > >At the Annual General Meeting of the TS in Iceland, held on may 10 1997, Mr. >Einar Adalsteinsson stepped down as National President (General Secretary) >after eight years in office, and in his place Mr. Jon Arnalds was elected as >the National President. > >Besides Mr. Arnalds the new national board consists of four members: Johann >Sigurbergsson, Karl Sigurdsson, Gisli Jonsson and Einar Adalsteinsson > >Mr. Arnalds was National President for two years in 1987 to '89, and has >been a board member for more than a decade. He is a former professor at the >University of Iceland and former Judge at the Reykjavik City Court. He now >runs a private attorney business of his own. > >Mr. Arnalds has been an active member of the TS in Iceland for many years, >and has delivered talks and conducted discussion and study groups on a >regular basis. > >I look forward to working with the new National President in the >theosophical work ahead and wish him good luck in his new position. > >Einar Adalsteinsson. > >The TS Hompage: >http://www.itn.is/~theospoh Our thanks go to Einar for the announcement. Here, we should note that Einar is the *only* National President in the world who is on theos-xxxx lists and frequently has participated in various discussions and we should all recognise this and thank him as well. I would be looking forward to his valuable feedbacks and discussion in the future. My best wishes go to Arnalds for a successful term of office in his great responsibility. One thing that I note regarding Arnalds is that he is a a practicing attorney. There is a parallel here in that H S Olcott and W Q Judge were also practicing attornies. Based on my observation, attorneys have spearheaded most of the major social, political and spiritual advances helping the Humanity and I am very confident that we may expect great things from Arnalds in helping Theosophy in Iceland make great strides. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:56:35 GMT From: "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." Subject: New National President for TS in Iceland. Message-ID: <199705111256.MAA17492@rvik.ismennt.is> Announcing new National President for TS in Iceland. At the Annual General Meeting of the TS in Iceland, held on may 10 1997, Mr. Einar Adalsteinsson stepped down as National President (General Secretary) after eight years in office, and in his place Mr. Jon Arnalds was elected as the National President. Besides Mr. Arnalds the new national board consists of four members: Johann Sigurbergsson, Karl Sigurdsson, Gisli Jonsson and Einar Adalsteinsson Mr. Arnalds was National President for two years in 1987 to '89, and has been a board member for more than a decade. He is a former professor at the University of Iceland and former Judge at the Reykjavik City Court. He now runs a private attorney business of his own. Mr. Arnalds has been an active member of the TS in Iceland for many years, and has delivered talks and conducted discussion and study groups on a regular basis. I look forward to working with the new National President in the theosophical work ahead and wish him good luck in his new position. Einar Adalsteinsson. The TS Hompage: http://www.itn.is/~theospoh From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:20:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: New National President for TS in Iceland. Message-ID: <970511192040_-298360846@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-11 11:37:36 EDT, you write: >Based on my observation, attorneys >have spearheaded most of the major social, political and spiritual advances >helping the Humanity Then why does that line from Shakespeare keep popping into my head? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:36:36 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: New National President for TS in Iceland. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970511233636.006d61e8@mail.eden.com> At 07:21 PM 5/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-11 11:37:36 EDT, you write: > >>Based on my observation, attorneys >>have spearheaded most of the major social, political and spiritual advances >>helping the Humanity > >Then why does that line from Shakespeare keep popping into my head? > >Chuck the Heretic Shakespeare was wrong in his stereotyping; may be he had some bad experience with attorneys. Was he sued for malpractice? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:26:12 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: New National President for TS in Iceland. Message-ID: <02n7OIAkOmdzEw4q@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970511151917.006ce150@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes > Our thanks go to Einar for the announcement. > > Here, we should note that Einar is the *only* National President in the >world who is on theos-xxxx lists and frequently has participated in various >discussions and we should all recognise this and thank him as well. Yes indeed - thank you Einar! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:14:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: New National President for TS in Iceland. Message-ID: <970512011410_54034695@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-11 19:53:15 EDT, you write: > Was he sued for malpractice? > > I don't think he ever did any surgery in his theater. On the whole, I think his stereotype was, if anything, far too kind. For every good lawyer, there are a thousand bad ones. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 22:19:07 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: How? versus Why? Message-ID: <199705120519.WAA02791@palrel1.hp.com> joyce bays wrote: > Although I am New to Theosophy (not the concept) If I interpret it > correctly it is meant to guide us to the knowledge not give it to us. To > aim us in the direction where we will find it. It tells us look here, look > there, and eventually we find that precious pearl. The one we value the > most because we found it and worked to obtain it, it wasn't given to us. We may not be speaking the same language. I certainly agree that giving an answer to someone is like taking a helicopter to the top of the mountain. The climb is the thing. What I was trying to point out is that Theosophy is full of explanations of things. But it is misleading to think that an explanation alone gets us anywhere. Jung liked William James's expression "nothing but" to describe that kind of mentality. "Oh, that phenomenon is nothing but this." Sure, you can explain that light is nothing but electromagnetic waves or that man has a seven-fold nature ... etc., etc. What do you do with this? How is it used? Certain people will memorize all this and think they have gotten somewhere. When I say "How" I think I mean approximately what you mean by guiding, so we are not disagreeing there. But in contrast to the spiritual exercises or rituals found in many religions, Theosophy looks sparse indeed. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:00:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: New National President for TS in Iceland. Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-05-11 19:53:15 EDT, you write: > > > Was he sued for malpractice? > > > > > > I don't think he ever did any surgery in his theater. On the whole, I think > his stereotype was, if anything, far too kind. For every good lawyer, there > are a thousand bad ones. > > Chuck the Heretic > Amen. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:21:28 EST From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Subject: Re: festivals Message-ID: <199705141021.2679100@microfone.net> Sveinn Freyr wrote, > "The 3rd Festival" referred to - connected with the full moon of Gemini, - > and also known as "The World Invocation Day," or "The Christ Festival," is > every seventh year moved to and celebrated at Christmas; the Greater > Festival period at the winter solstice. And then, "The World Invocation Day" > is not connected with the period of full moon. But if it happens to fall > into the period of full moon, then it will be a greater time of opportunity. > Sveinn Freyr What is your source for this? To the best of my knowledge, the concept of the three sequential Festivals as the highpoint of the spiritual year derives from Alice Bailey's work, and I have never seen anything discussing the possibility of "moving" World Invocation Day. I don't see how it would be possible, either, since (again, according to Bailey) the energies contacted in group formation at the time of Wesak or the Taurus moon are finally distributed to humanity during the Gemini moon Festival. There is a winter solstice festival connected with the New Group of World Servers, another of the Bailey concepts (as differentiated from HPB Theosophy) -- is this perhaps what you are referring to? Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:58:30 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Naming names Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970512145830.006d56f4@mail.eden.com> At 11:21 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> In message <335D609C.4A78@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky >> writes >> >> One of the Trustees of K Trusts (who was a party to the litigation) is >> >> now on the Board of TSA as well as a Trustee of Theosophical Investment >> >> Trust which manages the Investments of TSA. >> > >> > Now here's the thing. The way I work is that, if I knew the name of the >> >person, I would directly ask him or her what the story was. >> >> A very good point. Doss has mentioned this many times on the list, but >> although asked directly, seems unwilling to name the person whose >> identity is so strongly hinted at. Well, Doss??? > > I asked Michael Gomes about it. I will get the actual names when he can >look up the proper spelling, but according to him, the situation was >largely Krishnamurti vs. his business partner. The person who was >involved with both trusts was not a trustee but in fact a lawyer, who >was hired because of his familiarity with Theosophy. Finally, millions >of dollars sounds like a lot of money, but remember that Krishnamurti >was a BILLIONaire. > > Bart Lidofsky Did you get any more information from Michael Gomes? ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:12:07 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: BACK ARCHIVES OF THEOS-l Message-ID: <01IIS7KE53AE9FNW25@InfoAve.Net> hi- back archives of theos-l can usually be retrieved by sending the command (to listserv@vnet.net) get theos-L theos-l.yymmdd.digest-xxxx so to retrieve digest # 1014, send get theos-l theos-l.970511.digest-1014 a list of stuff online can be retrieved by sending the command index theos-L the archives are not 100% complete due to various disk crashes and other stuff (corruptions) which have occassionally happened. a complete list is only maintained in the akashic record. peace- john e. mead jem@vnet.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:53:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: BACK ARCHIVES OF THEOS-l Message-ID: <970512135333_1390694706@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-12 13:27:36 EDT, you write: > a complete list >is only maintained in the akashic record. I think I have a gadget that can read that. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 97 15:09:14 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: How vs. Why Message-ID: <199705121909.PAA24327@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Titus and all, I agree completely with the observation that Theosophy is sparse indeed in giving practical guidance to members, and rests on a plane of abstractions that isn't very nurturing to many people. But this is a problem only if one tries to make a complete diet of Theosophy, when it is nutritionally inadequate in itself. One needs to supplement it with commitments elsewhere to more practical paths. HPB and Olcott chose Buddhism; later Adyar leaders chose Liberal Catholicism; I choose the very pragmatic Cayce material. Some Theosophists (more in the Judge branch of the movement and among ES members) regard Theosophy alone as a completely fulfilling source of spiritual nourishment. But the majority don't, in my observation, combining it with other paths that are less topheavy with intellectualism. While the sparseness of the daily-useful aspects of Theosophy is not a problem for the individual members, who can get those needs met elsewhere, it *is* IMO a real problem for the organizations, which tend to an ivory-tower attitude. One finds it easier to care about and get involved in a group that is doing practical good works than a group that is entirely theoretical in focus. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:06:03 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: New National President for TS in Iceland. Message-ID: <199705122106.OAA07654@palrel1.hp.com> Although it's straying far from the original thread, I'll preserve the subject title. >> Was he sued for malpractice? > > I don't think he ever did any surgery in his theater. On the whole, I think > his stereotype was, if anything, far too kind. For every good lawyer, there > are a thousand bad ones. > > Chuck the Heretic Perhaps we should not consult Shakespeare for advice on lawyers. The following is from a very rare 20th century manuscript ... said to be translated from Senza: A tourist wanders into a back-alley antique shop in San Francisco's Chinatown. Picking through the objects on display he discovers a detailed, life-sized bronze sculpture of a rat. The sculpture is so interesting and unique that he picks it up and asks the shop owner what it costs. "Twelve dollars for the rat, sir," says the shop owner, "and a thousand dollars more for the story behind it." "You can keep the story, old man," he replies, "but I'll take the rat." The transaction complete, the tourist leaves the store with the bronze rat under his arm. As he crosses the street in front of the store, two live rats emerge from a sewer drain and fall into step behind him. Nervously looking over his shoulder, he begins to walk faster, but every time he passes another sewer drain, more rats come out and follow him. By the time he's walked two blocks, at least a hundred rats are at his heels, and people begin to point and shout. He walks even faster, and soon breaks into a trot as multitudes of rats swarm from sewers, basements, vacant lots, and abandoned cars. Rats by the thousands are at his heels, and as he sees the waterfront at the bottom of the hill, he panics and starts to run full tilt. No matter how fast he runs, the rats keep up, squealing hideously, now not just thousands but millions, so that by the time he comes rushing up to the water's edge a trail of rats twelve city blocks long is behind him. Making a mighty leap, he jumps up onto a light post, grasping it with one arm while he hurls the bronze rat into San Francisco Bay with the other, as far as he can heave it. Pulling his legs up and clinging to the light post, he watches in amazement as the seething tide of rats surges over the breakwater into the sea, where they drown. Shaken and mumbling, he makes his way back to the antique shop. "Ah, so you've come back for the rest of the story," says the owner. "No," says the tourist, "I was wondering if you have a bronze lawyer." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:08:26 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: <337794DA.26B9@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > Some Theosophists (more in the Judge branch of the movement and > among ES members) regard Theosophy alone as a completely > fulfilling source of spiritual nourishment. But the majority > don't, in my observation, combining it with other paths that > are less topheavy with intellectualism. Well, from what I have read and been told, it is not that the ULT thinks that the primary literature alone is sufficient; it is that they believe that it is important to disseminate it. > While the sparseness of the daily-useful aspects of Theosophy > is not a problem for the individual members, who can get those > needs met elsewhere, it *is* IMO a real problem for the organizations, > which tend to an ivory-tower attitude. One finds it easier to > care about and get involved in a group that is doing practical > good works than a group that is entirely theoretical in focus. In the New York Lodge, I attempt to slant members' meetings towards topics that ARE applicable in our daily lives. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:43:30 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970512224330.006e80f4@mail.eden.com> At 03:10 PM 5/12/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >Dear Titus and all, > >I agree completely with the observation that Theosophy is >sparse indeed in giving practical guidance to members, and >rests on a plane of abstractions that isn't very nurturing to >many people. But this is a problem only if one tries to make a >complete diet of Theosophy, when it is nutritionally inadequate >in itself. One needs to supplement it with commitments >elsewhere to more practical paths. HPB and Olcott chose >Buddhism; later Adyar leaders chose Liberal Catholicism; I >choose the very pragmatic Cayce material. > >Some Theosophists (more in the Judge branch of the movement and >among ES members) regard Theosophy alone as a completely >fulfilling source of spiritual nourishment. But the majority >don't, in my observation, combining it with other paths that >are less topheavy with intellectualism. > >While the sparseness of the daily-useful aspects of Theosophy >is not a problem for the individual members, who can get those >needs met elsewhere, it *is* IMO a real problem for the organizations, >which tend to an ivory-tower attitude. One finds it easier to >care about and get involved in a group that is doing practical >good works than a group that is entirely theoretical in focus. > >Cheers, >Paul I believe there are a couple of points that need to be considered. 1. The needs of the members who join and continue in TS vary considerably. 2. When the TS was started, while much of the philosophy was being written up, we see that not much emphasis was placed on such practices as meditation, concentration etc. On the other hand we see both HPB and HSO getting involved in some practical social issues which affect men and women. The first Sanskrit schools in Madras and also the school for Panchama (depressed classes) School was started. In addition, work was done in reviving Buddhism. 3. Though ES was later started due to requests from selected individuals for practical instructions for self-improvement, and interest grew up later, during the time of Annie Besant, she was intensely involved in the various movements in India which affected the masses. They are Indian Independence, national system of schools, and various other endeavors. 4. Even during later years, Rukmini Devi Arundale was actively involved in animal welfare in India. 5. If we look at TS, the members have to be self-starters so that they can embark on a plan which is practical application of the three objects of TS. 6. The elitist and ivory tower attitude generally comes from certain inferiority complex in the minds of some who may be thinking that they have evolved further than the rest. What I have seen is that some of the very experienced members who are humble and realize that whatever they may know is so insignificant compared to those who have first hand knowledge, do act in a non elitist/ivory manner. Also some times when anyone gets elected or appointed to an organizational position, that gets to their head and you may see some demonstration of the elitist attitude -- which is just normal human reaction, because everyone wants to feel important and associated with something important or big. 7. Generally what I find is that anyone who is service oriented will find TS environment a comfortable one in spite of all the short comings. After all, as the Real Founders wanted to help Humanity and all the rest were secondary. 8. If someone is interested practical instructions in such practical matters as astral projection, astral, mental, etc travel etc. etc. they may have to look elsewhere for instruction. Just my rambling thoughts. Your mileage and direction may vary. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:40:27 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Theory vs Practice Message-ID: <199705122343.TAA24434@NetGSI.com> >But in contrast to the spiritual exercises >or rituals found in many religions, Theosophy looks >sparse indeed. I agree. Actually, we had a debate on this subject some time ago, and I believe that everyone, pretty much, agreed (even Eldon, as I recall) that the TSs were big on theory, but lacking on practice. Many theosophists have left to form their own groups for this very reason (Dion Fortune, for one: she said that theosophy was the theory, while magic was the practice). I just read an interesting book on the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor (SUNY Press) and they also taught that theosophy was the theory, while they (i.e., magic) provided the practical applications. Altruism and Karma Yoga are nice, but not enough to take heaven by storm, I am afraid. Theory has to be demonstrable in order to make it meaningful. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:11:53 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: BACK ARCHIVES OF THEOS-l Message-ID: <+7Mp9GAJH7dzEwIk@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <01IIS7KE53AE9FNW25@InfoAve.Net>, John E Mead writes >the archives are not 100% complete due to various disk crashes and other >stuff (corruptions) which have occassionally happened. a complete list >is only maintained in the akashic record. Can we have the password for the akashic record website ? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:38:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: BACK ARCHIVES OF THEOS-l Message-ID: In message <970512135333_1390694706@emout04.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >> a complete list >>is only maintained in the akashic record. > >I think I have a gadget that can read that. > >Chuck the Heretic Ron Hubbard eat your heart out. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:36:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970512224330.006e80f4@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >7. Generally what I find is that anyone who is service oriented will find TS >environment a comfortable one in spite of all the short comings. After all, >as the Real Founders wanted to help Humanity and all the rest were secondary. There is little doubt that there are subscribers to the list(s) who, like myself, DO have first hand knowledge in some (usually specific) areas. It seems though that a kind of 'pose' of humility is the convention; that it is not the thing to confess to genuine knowledge. Yet genuine knowledge requires neither humility nor its lack. Truth, in these areas, is self-evident and requires no apology. > >8. If someone is interested practical instructions in such practical matters >as astral projection, astral, mental, etc travel etc. etc. they may have to >look elsewhere for instruction. Elsewhere than the T.S., yes. But among its members and outside of its membership there are quite a number of people who can offer guidance and help if asked. And there's the catch, maybe. In my own work I have learned some simple rules or guidelines. Examples: 1. Don't answer a question that hasn't been asked. 2. Don't answer *more* than has been asked. 3. Behave as though an enquirer's stated opinion is absolutely correct, even if it is clearly way off course. From the *student's* viewpoint, take one step forward towards a greater truth, and then step back. 4. If you don't know the answer to a question, say so. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:00:35 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theory vs Practice Message-ID: <3377D953.3D7B@eden.com> Gerald Schueler wrote: > practical applications. Altruism and Karma Yoga > are nice, but not enough to take heaven by > storm, I am afraid. Theory has to be demonstrable > in order to make it meaningful. Some of us who are too busy dealing with human problems and helping fellow beings as best we could, taking heaven by storm are a low priority item because we cannot see how that is going to help our fellow beings. Implicit in any improvements in human conditions is everyone of us are beneficiaries, though in a physically imperceptible way. I guess different strokes for different people. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:05:51 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: <3377DA8F.3F52@eden.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <2.2.32.19970512224330.006e80f4@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss > writes > >7. Generally what I find is that anyone who is service oriented will find TS > >environment a comfortable one in spite of all the short comings. After all, > >as the Real Founders wanted to help Humanity and all the rest were secondary. > > There is little doubt that there are subscribers to the list(s) who, > like myself, DO have first hand knowledge in some (usually specific) > areas. It seems though that a kind of 'pose' of humility is the > convention; that it is not the thing to confess to genuine knowledge. > Yet genuine knowledge requires neither humility nor its lack. Truth, in > these areas, is self-evident and requires no apology. There are more things in the universe that I do not know of and I agree that there are a lot of us who know somethings first hand. When I meant humility, it is not a front that one should put up. Natural humility need not be cultivated and would be quite obvious to everyone. The moment you "pose" humility, it is not humility -- it is just an act to deceive. > > > >8. If someone is interested practical instructions in such practical matters > >as astral projection, astral, mental, etc travel etc. etc. they may have to > >look elsewhere for instruction. > > Elsewhere than the T.S., yes. But among its members and outside of its > membership there are quite a number of people who can offer guidance and > help if asked. And there's the catch, maybe. In my own work I have > learned some simple rules or guidelines. Examples: > > 1. Don't answer a question that hasn't been asked. > > 2. Don't answer *more* than has been asked. > > 3. Behave as though an enquirer's stated opinion is absolutely correct, > even if it is clearly way off course. From the *student's* viewpoint, > take one step forward towards a greater truth, and then step back. > > 4. If you don't know the answer to a question, say so. > > Alan The only precaution I generally take is to make sure that when I follow someone, I do not end up in a situation of blind leading blind and both falling into the ditch -- metaphorically speaking! ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:39:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: New National President for TS in Iceland. Message-ID: <970512233824_1356931205@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-12 19:29:42 EDT, you write: > >"No," says the tourist, "I was wondering if you have a bronze lawyer." > > I think I'll stick with Shakespeare. I like the direct approach. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:04:07 +0000 From: Thoa Tran Subject: Theosophists and How?Why? Message-ID: <337874D6.57D3@withoutwalls.com> Against his will, a theosophist gets drafted and shipped off to basic training. While at the rifle range he is given a rifle and some ammunition. Said theosophist then sends three shots downrange and is informed that nothing hit the target. Puzzled, our hero takes out the manual to doublecheck his action, checks the chamber, cycles the action and reloads. Three more shots are fired off and the same message comes from downrange -- no hits. Now the theosophist seems perplexed. He puts his finger over the barrel and lets loose a round. The tip of his finger is taken off in a spray of red mist. He then yells down to the sighting bunkers, "It's leaving here just fine. The problem must be on your end!" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:06:22 +0000 From: Thoa Tran Subject: How? Hints from the Catholics Message-ID: <3378755E.2CF@withoutwalls.com> Due to decreasing participation of the younger generation, the Theosophical Society have decided to devote its energy to running a school for children. One of the young chela, a ten year old boy, was finding fifth grade math to be the challenge of his life. Theosophy? A piece of cake. Science? No big deal. Psychology? Ha! Give me a break...but MATH? It was devastating! To not only him, but to his two mentors, too! And not that they weren't doing everything and anything to help him...Private tutors, peer assistance, CD-Roms, Textbooks, even HYPNOSIS! Nothing worked. Finally, at the insistence of a visiting theosophist, they decided to enroll their student in another school. Not just ANY school, but a Catholic school. Nuns. Weekly mass. The whole shootin' match. Well, the first day of school finally arrived, and dressed in his salt-and-pepper cords and white wool dress shirt and blue cardigan sweater, the youngster ventured out into the great unknown. His elder theosophists were convinced they were doing the right thing. They were there waiting for their student when he returned to the TS school. And when he walked in with a stern, focused and very determined expression on his face, they hoped they had made the right choice. He walked right past them and went straight to his dorm - and quietly closed the door. For nearly two hours he toiled away in his room - with math books strewn about his desk and the surrounding floor. He only emerged long enough to eat, and after quickly cleaning his plate, he went straight back to his room, closed the door, and worked feverishly at his studies until bedtime. This pattern continued ceaselessly until it was time for the first quarter report card. After school, the chela walked into the mentors' dining room with his report card, unopened, in his hand. Without a word, he dropped the envelope on the dinner table and went straight to his room. His mentors were petrified. What lay inside the envelope? Success? Failure? DOOM?!? Patiently, cautiously one mentor opened the letter, and to her amazement, she saw a bright red "A" under the subject, MATH. Overjoyed, she and her fellow theosophist rushed into their student's room, thrilled at his remarkable progress! "Was it the nuns that did it?", one asked. The boy only shook his head and said, "No." "Was it the one-on-one tutoring? The peer-mentoring?", asked the other. Again, the boy shrugged, "No." "The textbooks? The teacher? The curriculum?", asked the first one. "Nope," said the chela. "It was all very clear to me from the very first day of Catholic school." "How so?", asked the second one. "When I walked into the lobby, and I saw that guy they'd nailed to the plus sign, I knew they meant business!" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:49:25 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: In message <3377DA8F.3F52@eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes > When I meant humility, it is not a front that one should put up. >Natural humility need not be cultivated and would be quite obvious to >everyone. The moment you "pose" humility, it is not humility -- it is >just an act to deceive. Indeed it is. The point I was trying to make is that this deception is a kind of unspoken *rule* or convention in TS circles. Call it a 'fashion' maybe. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:49:46 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: How vs. Why - Follow-up Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970514044946.006e9e28@mail.eden.com> At 03:10 PM 5/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Titus and all, > >I agree completely with the observation that Theosophy is >sparse indeed in giving practical guidance to members, and >rests on a plane of abstractions that isn't very nurturing to >many people. But this is a problem only if one tries to make a >complete diet of Theosophy, when it is nutritionally inadequate >in itself. One needs to supplement it with commitments >elsewhere to more practical paths. HPB and Olcott chose >Buddhism; later Adyar leaders chose Liberal Catholicism; I >choose the very pragmatic Cayce material. > >Some Theosophists (more in the Judge branch of the movement and >among ES members) regard Theosophy alone as a completely >fulfilling source of spiritual nourishment. But the majority >don't, in my observation, combining it with other paths that >are less topheavy with intellectualism. > >While the sparseness of the daily-useful aspects of Theosophy >is not a problem for the individual members, who can get those >needs met elsewhere, it *is* IMO a real problem for the organizations, >which tend to an ivory-tower attitude. One finds it easier to >care about and get involved in a group that is doing practical >good works than a group that is entirely theoretical in focus. > >Cheers, >Paul > This is a follow-up message to my earlier reply. I just visited with the Maha-Chohan letter which is considered by every TS leader from HPB onwards was the most important letter ever received from the Adept Teachers as it is a communication from the Maha-Chohan ("to whose insight the future lies like an open page -- K.H.) It was a response to the two Englishmen - AO Hume and AP Sinnett who did not clearly understand the goal of Theosophical Society. The Adepts told them that the true significance of Their attempt to influence the world through TS was to mould the world towards a larger and truer sense of Brotherhood than the religions had so far accomplished. (CJ's comment in Letters from the MW - I Series). The letter goes on to say "Colonel HSO, who works but to revive Buddhism, may be regarded as one who labours in the true path of theosophy, far more than any other man who chooses as his goal the gratification of his own ardent aspirations for occult knowledge." "It is not the individual and determined purpose of attaining oneself Nirvana (the culmination of all knowledge and absolute wisdom) which is after all only an exalted and glorious *selfishness* -- but the self-sacrificing pursuit of the best means to lead on the right path our neighbour, to cause as many of our fellow-creatures as we possibly can to benefit by it, which constitutes the true Theosophist." "Rather perish the TS with both its hapless founders than that we should permit it to become no better than an academy of magic, a hall of occultism." "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect Lamas, who are expected to allow the TS to drop its noble title, that of Brotherhood of Humanity, to become a simple school of psychology. No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long already." >From a reading of the above, it is very clear if some one joins the TS with the expectation of *practical* lessons on topics such as concentration, meditation, and other psychic and psychological exercises, I am sure there will be a great disappointment. I also personally believe that greater interest and activity by individual members in practical application of Brotherhood in any way we can, is but sure to make us very sensitive and perceptive as we go along so that we will be able to detect great opportunities for service and also potential opportunities to help the needy and downtrodden. I may be wrong. But this just what I feel. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:51:00 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970514045100.006e9980@mail.eden.com> At 09:03 PM 5/13/97 -0400, you wrote: >In message <3377DA8F.3F52@eden.com>, M K Ramadoss >writes >> When I meant humility, it is not a front that one should put up. >>Natural humility need not be cultivated and would be quite obvious to >>everyone. The moment you "pose" humility, it is not humility -- it is >>just an act to deceive. > >Indeed it is. The point I was trying to make is that this deception is >a kind of unspoken *rule* or convention in TS circles. Call it a >'fashion' maybe. > >Alan This reminds me of the saying that you can fool some for some time and not all for all the time. Time soon exposes those who think they can deceive everybody. ....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:17:54 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: how vs. why Message-ID: <199705141935.PAA03838@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >In the New York Lodge, I attempt to slant members' meetings towards >topics that ARE applicable in our daily lives. > > Bart Lidofsky I'm with you, Bart, what good is it otherwise? lfd From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:28:50 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: why vs. how Message-ID: <199705141946.PAA10793@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Anyone interested in the practical side of Theosophy, please do order Shirley Nicholson's "A Program for Living the Spiritual Life", for $7.- (unless the price has gone up a few bucks) from the TPH. It is a very good manual to fashion one's spiritual life by. Her 4 components are self-development, study, meditation, and service, and she describes how to go about bringing each one of those into your life, and voila a practical Theosophical spiritual life. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:47:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: BACK ARCHIVES OF THEOS-l Message-ID: <970514154728_-598202229@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-12 14:19:09 EDT, you write: > > a complete list is only maintained in the akashic record. Which is less likely to crash, I presume. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:47:02 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: <199705142047.NAA21926@palrel1.hp.com> Thanks for quoting the letter from the Maha Chohan, Doss. As I read it, however, it looks like a warning against going *exclusively* to the How side. All too often, truths are taken in a one-sided manner and out of context. Although I emphasized the How in my post, I did not mean to be one-sided about it. For the benefit of discussion, I'll repeat your quote: "Rather perish the TS with both its hapless founders than that we should permit it to become *no better* than an academy of magic, a hall of occultism." (emphasis mine) "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect Lamas, who are expected to allow the TS to drop its noble title, that of Brotherhood of Humanity, to become *a simple school of psychology*. No, no, good brothers, you have been labouring under the mistake too long already." At the time of the TS, the world had a clouded view of the Why of things. The western world at large did not believe in reincarnation. People were taught that if you were good you would sing with angels after death and play harps; and if you weren't good, you would live in hell, smelling coal fumes for all eternity. In the spiritist movement, people were obsessed with gaining phenomenal powers, ignoring their use and their priority in the scheme of things. Theosophy did a great service in giving a "theosophic perspective". Today, the dielectic has polarized again. This time Theosophy has gone too far to the other pole. A perspective without steps is lame, steps without direction are blind. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 97 20:52:10 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Hello again Message-ID: I was off the internet entirely for months. Looks like people are off again doing other things for spring and summer. The Texas Federation is later this month in Dallas. Bing Escudero spoke to us this month on "Hidden Teachings"---- the big surprise is that there are NO hidden teachings, only hidden TEACHERS! I'm still thinking about that one. Dear Eldon: Did you ever mail that digest sample of writings on theos-l. Can you e-mail me one? Dear Alan: How are things in jolly old England? How is TI coming along. The WWW is so hypnotizing. I'm afraid these newsgroups caused a momentary return to letter writing, but the era a belle lettres has been quickly superceded by cyber-graphics galore. Namaste Keith Price ps. Did Hale-Bopp really do anything for anybody except the Heaven'sgaters. Doss Mc David was horrified to read that they were students of theosophy (small t). Does anyone expect any mass suicides or spritual awakenings. I wrote another apology to John Algeo regarding my long forgotten (to me) faux pas. I don't think suicide is the answer, but the TSA headquaters could say something interesting and risky, besides putting down those members who try to stir things up a little. One lives on in hope, at least until the next comet :) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:57:51 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: <337A517F.4D78@eden.com> Titus Roth wrote: > > Thanks for quoting the letter from the Maha Chohan, Doss. As I read it, > however, it looks like a warning against going *exclusively* to the > How side. All too often, truths are taken in a one-sided manner and > out of context. Although I emphasized the How in my post, I did not > mean to be one-sided about it. > Glad for your clarification. There is a wide spectrum of interests based on individual aptitudes (may be due to influence of one or more of the 7 rays). In any case, so long as the objectives and direction of progress is ok it is fine. However, if the direction is not ok, any amount of tinkering or slight correction does no good since one will still be going in the wrong direction. Each one of us have to introspect and determine for ourself all these and take a balanced approach -- neither extereme. > For the benefit of discussion, I'll repeat your quote: > > "Rather perish the TS with both its hapless founders than that we should > permit it to become *no better* than an academy of magic, a hall of > occultism." (emphasis mine) > > "And it is we, the humble disciples of these perfect Lamas, who are expected > to allow the TS to drop its noble title, that of Brotherhood of Humanity, to > become *a simple school of psychology*. No, no, good brothers, you have been > labouring under the mistake too long already." > > At the time of the TS, the world had a clouded view of the Why of things. The > western world at large did not believe in reincarnation. People were taught > that if you were good you would sing with angels after death and play harps; > and if you weren't good, you would live in hell, smelling coal fumes for all > eternity. In the spiritist movement, people were obsessed with gaining > phenomenal powers, ignoring their use and their priority in the scheme of > things. Theosophy did a great service in giving a "theosophic perspective". > > Today, the dielectic has polarized again. This time Theosophy has gone > too far to the other pole. > > A perspective without steps is lame, steps without direction are blind. Agreed. A vision of the direction is going to be very helpful for most of us especially those who have been introduced to theosophy recently. Again, I would look for a low fog level approach so that everyone can be reached, not the intellectuals with PhDs only. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:05:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Hello again Message-ID: <337A5353.2E01@eden.com> JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > > I was off the internet entirely for months. Looks like people are off again > doing other things for spring and summer. > > The Texas Federation is later this month in Dallas. Bing Escudero spoke to us > this month on "Hidden Teachings"---- the big surprise is that there are NO > hidden teachings, only hidden TEACHERS! I'm still thinking about that one. > Bing was also here at San Antonio. There is a fascination about "secret" and "hidden" stuff. I am glad that the Teachers have decided to remain unknown and anonymous, after all they know Their business billion times better than we novices. I recall that during HPB's time, members used to pester her asking her to request her Teachers to accept them as disciples. I wonder how she lived with the constant pestering. Imagine if one of the Teachers were to have telephone number to reach them. Their phones will constantly be ringing, especially these days when everyone wants how and immediate results that they hope to get high on. > Dear Eldon: Did you ever mail that digest sample of writings on theos-l. Can > you e-mail me one? > > Dear Alan: How are things in jolly old England? How is TI coming along. > > The WWW is so hypnotizing. I'm afraid these newsgroups caused a momentary > return to letter writing, but the era a belle lettres has been quickly > superceded by cyber-graphics galore. > > Namaste > Keith Price > > ps. Did Hale-Bopp really do anything for anybody except the Heaven'sgaters. > Doss Mc David was horrified to read that they were students of theosophy > (small t). Does anyone expect any mass suicides or spritual awakenings. > To me Heaven's gaters posed no problem. If they read theosophy, so much the good. > I wrote another apology to John Algeo regarding my long forgotten (to me) faux > pas. I don't think suicide is the answer, but the TSA headquaters could say > something interesting and risky, besides putting down those members who try to > stir things up a little. One lives on in hope, at least until the next comet > :) When is the next comet due? Does anyone know? MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 01:53:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hello again Message-ID: In message , JOSEPH PRICE writes >Dear Alan: How are things in jolly old England? How is TI coming along. See website for photos of new abode ("Changing Images" link) TI sort of just lies there with 68 members in 14 countries Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:53:36 +0000 From: Thoa Tran Subject: How, Why, and the Younger Generation Message-ID: <337A5E90.2025@withoutwalls.com> Some thoughts on this topic: 1. It is more effective to get to the Why through the How. 2. The younger generation is usually physically strong and vigorous, mentally curious, and emotionally intense. Thus, the younger generation would be more attracted to experience that will touch on all of those aspects. That is the natural process of development. 3. The T.S. is not very attractive to the younger generation. The focusing on the Why leads the T.S. to focus mostly on publication, lectures, and study groups...ZZZZZ...and one wonders why people are apathetic. It is easier to read books and log on the internet, and then go out and have a roaring good time! Why join the T.S.? ;o) 4. Using more of the How does not necessarily have to lead the student astray. As an example, I enjoy how Yosemite National Park have made their most difficult mountain climbs accessible to regular folks, and yet have stayed close to the experience of mountain climbing and nature. Basically, nature is there, it has been made accessible and yet still dangerous, and use your common sense when dealing with nature. There is not a deluge of warning signs for the hikers. Perhaps elder theosophists, if they are highly aware of the Whys and the Hows, can be the leading mountaineers that paved the paths of Hows for the novice. 5. Organizations that are active and full of experiential Hows are more attractive than organizations that just offer Whys. Would I rather commit myself to an active organization that has clear steps toward a particular cause, that spurs camaraderie among people joyfully uniting for a purpose, and that helps me develop intense experience through my participation...or...would I rather commit to an organization that just tells me what I should be without any guidance as to how to go about the goal. I think I would be more attracted to the first organization. 6. Lack of openness for whatever reason only causes more apathy. Maybe for my own good, I'm not supposed to know certain things. Or, it could be that for my own good, I'm supposed to figure it out on my own. Chances are, if I do not receive any feedback, I'm not going to care. Period. 7. Another way of being humble is being open. That is, a person is humble enough to reveal all that s/he knows. Revealing all leaves one open for contrary opinions. It also reveals one's ignorance. To me, a person taking such a chance is more humble than one who is reticent in order to keep his/her honor. Being proud of one's accomplishment and talking about it does not necessarily mean bragging. It is a way of saying that one has made the effort, and that effort has resulted in success. Thus, this is an inspirational way of focusing on "effort." Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:45:18 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: 1900 Letter Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970515194518.0068b2c8@mail.eden.com> I am re-posting this msg in the context of a comment made by Thoa regarding unnessary secrecy. I hope those in the administration of Theosophical Organizations have read this and thought over its contents and hopefully benefit from the advise in the best future interests of Theosophical Organizations. MKR ============================================================== THE 1900 LETTER TO ANNIE BESANT A psychic and a pranayamist who has got confused by the vagaries of the members. The T.S. and its members are slowly manufacturing a creed. Says a Thibetan proverb "credulity breeds credulity and ends in hypocrisy." How few are they who can know anything about us. Are we to be propitiated and made idols of. Is the worship of a new Trinity made up of the Blessed M., Upasika and yourself to take the place of exploded creeds. We ask not for the worship of ourselves. The disciple should in no way be fettered. Beware of an Esoteric Popery. The intense desire to see Upasika reincarnate at once has raised a misleading Mayavic ideation. Upasika has useful work to do on higher planes and cannot come again so soon. The T.S. must safely be ushered into the new century. You have for some time been under deluding influences. Shun pride, vanity and love of power. Be not guided by emotion but learn to stand alone. Be accurate and critical rather than credulous. The mistake of the past in the old religions must not be glossed over with imaginary explanations. The E.S.T. must be reformed so as to be as unsectarian and creedless as the T.S. The rules must be few and simple and acceptable to all. No one has the right to claim authority over a pupil or his conscience. Ask him not what he believes. All who are sincere and pure minded must have admittance. The crest wave of intellectual advancement must be taken hold of and guided into spirituality. It cannot be forced into beliefs and emotional worship. The essence of the higher thoughts of the members in their collectivity must guide all action in the T.S. and E.S. We never try to subject to ourselves the will of another. At favourable times we let loose elevating influences which strike various persons in various ways. It is the collective aspect of many such thoughts that can give the correct note of action. We show no favours. The best corrective of error is an honest and minded examination of all facts subjective and objective. Misleading secrecy has given the death blow to numerous organizations. The cant about "Masters" must be silently but firmly put down. Let the devotion and service be to that Supreme Spirit alone of which one is a part. Namelessly and silently we work and the continual references to ourselves and the repetition of our names raises up a confused aura that hinders our work. You will have to leave a good deal of your emotions and credulity before you become a safe guide among the influences that will commence to work in the new cycle. The T.S. was meant to be the corner-stone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observances. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength. K.H. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:45:32 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: How, Why, and the Younger Generation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970515194532.0068a6f8@mail.eden.com> At 04:05 AM 5/15/97 -0400, Thoa Tran wrote: >Some thoughts on this topic: >6. Lack of openness for whatever reason only causes more apathy. Maybe >for my own good, I'm not supposed to know certain things. Or, it could >be that for my own good, I'm supposed to figure it out on my own. >Chances are, if I do not receive any feedback, I'm not going to care. >Period. Let me repeat the famous anecdote. In India there was a very well know religious reformer, who some say is a high initiate -- Shri Ramanujacharya. His Guru told him that he is going to reveal some great secret which will help him in his spiritual process, but the downside was that Ramanujacharya cannot reveal it to any one. If he does, he will instantaneously die by his head exploding. He was a great humanitarian and did not care much about his own death, but wanted to share the great secret with everyone so that everyone can benefit by it. So as soon as his Guru communicated the secret, he ran up to the minaret of the Temple, which is the highest point in the city and shouted asking everyone to assemble. Soon the residents assembled to hear him, he told them how he is going die soon he discloses the secret, everyone was waiting with anticipation when he made the secret public. Guess what happened. He did not die. The moral of the story is that there is very little to the need for secrecy. In this connection, I would also like to bring attention of everyone to the famous 1900 letter from KH where Annie Besant was told that unnecessary secrecy killed many organizations. (I am posting the 1900 letter again for the benefit of those who have not seen it.) Is there anyone from Theosophical Organizations listening? I hope so. But I have not seen any feedback on this so far. Who can ignore the warning contained inthe above letter at the same time claim great reverence to the writer of the letter. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:45:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: How, Why, and the Younger Generation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970515194538.00686290@mail.eden.com> At 04:05 AM 5/15/97 -0400, Thoa Tran wrote: >Some thoughts on this topic: >7. Another way of being humble is being open. That is, a person is >humble enough to reveal all that s/he knows. Revealing all leaves one >open for contrary opinions. It also reveals one's ignorance. Only really great men and women can openly and candidly willing to accept one's ignorance. Ignorance has nothing to do with how much education one has, what positions one has held, how much grey hair one has, how learned one looks etc. Usually one tries to cover up their ignorance and mistakes by resorting to all tricks one has learnt in the worldly life. I do not have to give any examples. Just look and listen and watch and you will see them all the time. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:12:41 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970515201241.006cd534@mail.eden.com> At 04:05 AM 5/15/97 -0400, Thoa Tran wrote: >Some thoughts on this topic: >6. Lack of openness for whatever reason only causes more apathy. Maybe Here is a real life anecdote. Several months ago, I brought up to the attention of a well known Theosophical Organization an administrative issue which in my mind is a very important one. My request was that the matter to be discussed at the Board Meeting. After the meeting, I inquired if the matter was discussed and decision taken. I received a well written reply which made it appear as if the Board considered the matter and a decision taken. From the letter it was not clear if the matter was formally in the Agenda of the meeting and a formal discussion took place and formal decision was voted upon. So I wrote back and requested a confirmation that it was indeed discussed in the Board Meeting and a decision taken by the Board. I also requested a copy of the transcript of the meeting discussing the issue and the decision taken so that I can see for myself the details of how and why the decision was taken. Lo and behold, to this day I am yet to receive the information. I am wondering why the silence? Does it say something about the silence? Another example of secrecy? You draw your own conclusion. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:30:04 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Helping others Message-ID: <199705152032.QAA20623@NetGSI.com> > Some of us who are too busy dealing with human problems and helping >fellow beings as best we could, taking heaven by storm are a low >priority item because we cannot see how that is going to help our fellow >beings. Implicit in any improvements in human conditions is everyone of >us are beneficiaries, though in a physically imperceptible way. I appreciate your viewpoint, Doss, but can't really agree with it. In order to really "help" others, we have to know exactly what their problem is, and often it is not as it might seem on the surface. There is nothing wrong with giving physical comforts and aids, teaching, and so on, but spiritual help requires occult knowledge. This is exactly the rationale given by Mayahana Buddhists, as to the importance of studying and practicing toward becoming a bodhisattva. We don't become a bodhisattva just by helping others in need. First, an indepth knowledge of karma is required, and secondly the abilty to see into the hearts and minds of others in order to know when and how to really help them. Only then can real help be given. There is a big difference between helping and controlling (or manipulating) others. Many people today are controlling others in the name of helping. Real help can only come through a sincere compassion and caring for others coupled with an indepth understanding of what their problems are, and how to go about helping them without making new problems. Have you ever watched the new TV program, Touched by Angels? It is probably the best show on TV today, and shows the need for real insight. We are not angels, but can be bodhisattvas, if we take heaven by storm during this life. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:34:05 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 1997, M K Ramadoss wrote: > Lo and behold, to this day I am yet to receive the information. I am > wondering why the silence? Does it say something about the silence? Another > example of secrecy? Doss ... Maybe the entire Board is afraid of having their heads explode. -tee hee, -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:39:47 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: <199705152041.QAA20928@NetGSI.com> >A perspective without steps is lame, steps without direction are blind. Good point Paul. Tibetan Buddhism calls this wisdom and means, and symbolizes it with a man and woman in sexual embrace, indicating the necessary union of both. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:46:35 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: Thoughts about the Festivals Message-ID: <19970515204634597.AAA274@meta.treknet.is> Attention to: Jim Meier >Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 06:35:58 EST >From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) >From: THEOS-L digest 1007 >According to Bailey, the Wesak Festival is the 2nd of three full moon >festivals that make up the Higher Interlude cycle of the spiritual year. >The 1st is Easter (Aries) and the 3rd is this month's full moon of Gemini on >May 22nd. The 3rd Festival is also known as World Invocation Day, and the >idea of the three Spiritual Festivals (and the lesser festivals at the other >nine moons) is one of the main differences between the Bailey teachings and >"orthodox" Theosophy. > I wondered about some sentences in your letter, and stumbled over two. Those two sentences are: >(and the lesser festivals at the other nine moons) >"orthodox" Theosophy. Commenting on your text about the Festivals I can now see that I made a mistake by using the word "moved." I was thinking in Icelandic and the selected English word is not accurate for what I had in mind. I had in mind to remind us about the Cardinal Signs Festivals, and especially about The Winter Solstice Festival. The theory about the Cardinal Signs Festivals is well known to many students of Theosophy. And also; the theory of the full moon periods is well known. By my understanding, the greater Festivals do not depend on the cycles of the moon. Let us look at this again, and I will try to explain my mind. By The Ancient Northern Cosmogony, the Winter Solstice Festival is believed to be the most spiritual of all the Great Festivals. It is believed to be the Great Event when The Sun God - The Solar Logos - looks into the lives of all men. Looks into the life of every man, wherever in the worlds that man may be. That is a blessing. That is the Holy gift, given to us every year at Christmas. This great Festival of Love and Brotherhood is not connected with the period of full moon. At the Winter Solstice Festival, the other spiritual Festivals of the year, are synthesized. About the other sentence: >"orthodox" Theosophy. There is no >"orthodox" Theosophy -- it does not exist. Our understanding and presentation of Theosophy can be "orthodox." Persons and groups can be "orthodox." But Theosophy can not be limited by our limited understanding. Theosophy is a Way. It is a Pillar. Regarding the Festivals and the writings of Bailey. Are you certain that the Winter Solstice Festival is not introduced in those books. Can you look into this? One must have in mind that the writings of Bailey are of different quality. I recall, that at one time when I was looking into one of those books, I noticed the sentence: "notice that my first books are different." I am quotating to this sentence, from my memory. You see; A. Bailey wrote for a group - not only for one single person. Other Ashrams have presented "Teaching" in this century, through a number of books. On certain ideas there is a basic difference. Not can all be right. Let us therefore be careful when we decide on what is true. It is necessary to make a comparative study, free from biasness. Sveinn Freyr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 97 16:48:26 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Mahachohan's letter Message-ID: <199705152048.QAA01929@leo.vsla.edu> Following up the discussion between Doss and Titus: I think there are two separate issues getting combined into one in this question of the Mahachohan's letter. First is theory vs. practice and second is selfishness vs. altruism. Doss, you seem to be taking the letter as being against practice, when I read it as simply being against selfishness. Olcott is praised for his work for Buddhism. Is Buddhism a purely theoretical religion? No, it's based on spiritual practices. Is HPB a purely theoretical occultist? Again, no, she's quite renowned for her practical feats in that domain. But is praised in the letter for her altruism, as I recall. Hume and Sinnett are condemned for aspiring to be special pupils in occultism, for being fascinated by magic. But the problem isn't that they want to learn something practical; it's that they lack the proper ethical foundation to do the particular kinds of practical study they aspire to. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:49:39 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: BACK ARCHIVES OF THEOS-l Message-ID: <19970515204939212.AAA296@meta.treknet.is> >Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:07:35 -0500 >From: M K Ramadoss >THEOS-L digest 1017 >Send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with nothing in the subject and in the body >just have one line which says: index theos-l >This would send you a list of all digests. Pick the ones you want and send a >msg again to theos-l with the following in the body of the msg and leave the >subject blank: get theos-l xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >where xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is the exact identification of the digest. >That is all to it. >mkr ------- >Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:12:07 -0400 >From: John E Mead >THEOS-L digest 1018 >hi- >back archives of theos-l can usually be retrieved >by sending the command (to listserv@vnet.net) >get theos-L theos-l.yymmdd.digest-xxxx >so to retrieve digest # 1014, send >get theos-l theos-l.970511.digest-1014 >a list of stuff online can be retrieved by sending the command >index theos-L >the archives are not 100% complete due to various disk crashes and other >stuff (corruptions) which have occassionally happened. a complete list >is only maintained in the akashic record. >peace- >john e. mead >jem@vnet.net --- Thank you Sveinn Freyr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:44:28 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1021 Message-ID: <337B679B.2A2A@earthlink.net> >In the New York Lodge, I attempt to slant members' meetings towards >topics that ARE applicable in our daily lives. > > Bart Lidofsky Ah...all areas of theosophy (abstract/esoteric) are applicable...it is a wonderful process to study a topic for years and then discover how it relates... Shanti, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 97 23:24:45 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: World Wide Mind - The limitations of cyber-brotherhood Message-ID: The internet seemed at first to offer so much opportunity to for a nucleus of universal brotherhood to further the theosophical objectives. We have news groups, web pages and chat rooms galore. The options are staggering. Yet there is definitely no danger of the internet instilling a cult like mentality. The personality, the lower vehicles don't have the impact in the current cyber-space that they would have in groups such as Heaven'sgate, David Koresh, or the charasmatic appeal of teachers like BLavatsky and Krishnimurti. It seems that at our level of evolution, we need face to face relationships for really effective transformation. Teaching and discussion are not enough. The ancients knew this and that is why the real teachings were transmitted orally from Master to chela and not trusted to the eyes of the profane. Blavatsky felt it necessary through the guidance of her Masters to break some of the silence and publish the confused and confusing document known as the SECRET DOCTRINE. There is no doubt on it impact more subtle that open on the current mindset known as new age etc. The point is that we are always in the midst of evolution and my personality and social institutions and groups are far from perfection, but in a process. I saw THE MAGIC FLUTE by Mozart recently and was aware for the first time of the Masonic overtones and talk of inititates and the coming of an elite brotherhood to guide manking based on the ancient teaching from Egypt/Atlantis. The hero and clown (Papageno) must go through many trials and dissapointments and misplaced trust till they are worthy to enter the brotherhood. I think Mozart like Blavatsky and Shakespeare are the real guiders of humanity who point to an age of altruism and peace that we see, but through a glass darkly. I think many are working, some guided , some blindly, but all toward the path that winds ever upwards despite many setbacks. Namaste Keith Price From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:01:35 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: 1900 Letter Message-ID: <337BBFFF.77C7@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > I am re-posting this msg in the context of a comment made by Thoa regarding > unnessary secrecy. I hope those in the administration of Theosophical > Organizations have read this and thought over its contents and hopefully > benefit from the advise in the best future interests of Theosophical > Organizations. Well, you don't have a problem with the TSA. John Algeo was visiting when I gave a talk on the 1900 Letter (we have two talks every Wednesday, an informal one at 6:30 and an officially announced one at 7:30; John was slated to give the 7:30 talk). He stated that he believed that the 1900 letter wsa genuine, and was very supportive of what it said. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:05:20 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <337BC0E0.FB9@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > indeed discussed in the Board Meeting and a decision taken by the Board. I > also requested a copy of the transcript of the meeting discussing the issue > and the decision taken so that I can see for myself the details of how and > why the decision was taken. I am certain that it is not that they wouldn't give you a complete transcript; it was that they COULDN'T give you a complete transcript, and if you think about what goes into the creation of a complete transcript, you can see that it was a ridiculous request. Also, at Board Meetings, a lot of discussion of personal matters frequently goes on that never enters the minutes. Even if a transcript could be made, it would be unethical for them to give you more than the minutes. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:11:16 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: How vs. Why Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970516061116.006caae4@mail.eden.com> At 04:41 PM 5/15/97 -0400, Gerald Schueler wrote: > > ============================= I just got the header only, no msg. I get msgs as they are posted and not in digest format. Did anyone else get the header only? MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:12:14 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970516061214.006aca4c@mail.eden.com> At 04:37 PM 5/15/97 -0400, JRC wrote: > >================ Again I just received the header only. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:17:59 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Mahachohan's letter Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970516061759.006d215c@mail.eden.com> At 04:48 PM 5/15/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >Following up the discussion between Doss and Titus: > >I think there are two separate issues getting combined into one >in this question of the Mahachohan's letter. First is theory >vs. practice and second is selfishness vs. altruism. Doss, you >seem to be taking the letter as being against practice, when I >read it as simply being against selfishness. Olcott is praised >for his work for Buddhism. Is Buddhism a purely theoretical >religion? No, it's based on spiritual practices. Is HPB a >purely theoretical occultist? Again, no, she's quite renowned >for her practical feats in that domain. But is praised in the >letter for her altruism, as I recall. Hume >and Sinnett are condemned for aspiring to be special pupils in >occultism, for being fascinated by magic. But the problem >isn't that they want to learn something practical; it's that >they lack the proper ethical foundation to do the particular >kinds of practical study they aspire to. > I did not read that the letter was against practice. Theory with no action is not going to do any good to anyone. Right action is needed at all times, IMHO. Now the second point that comes up is what is spiritual action or practice and what is the purpose of it all? Each one of us can define this to the best of our understanding. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:27:10 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970516062710.006cf97c@mail.eden.com> At 10:06 PM 5/15/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> indeed discussed in the Board Meeting and a decision taken by the Board. I >> also requested a copy of the transcript of the meeting discussing the issue >> and the decision taken so that I can see for myself the details of how and >> why the decision was taken. > > I am certain that it is not that they wouldn't give you a complete >transcript; it was that they COULDN'T give you a complete transcript, >and if you think about what goes into the creation of a complete >transcript, you can see that it was a ridiculous request. > > Also, at Board Meetings, a lot of discussion of personal matters >frequently goes on that never enters the minutes. Even if a transcript >could be made, it would be unethical for them to give you more than the >minutes. > > Bart Lidofsky It is not uncommon that for specific purposes, the relevant portions of the transcript are extracted and furnished to third parties with a certification by the Secretary. For example when an organization needs to open a bank account. This what I have seen in innumerable cases. May be different organizations do it differently. On the other hand some of the publicly funded organizations in Texas, the boards (by law) are required to meet in open meetings and conduct business in the open and failing to do so is a criminal offense. The only exclusion is when dealing with litigation and personnel matters. I am not saying that every organization should do this. But this just goes to demonstrate that doing business openly is practical. Just thought I should share my experience. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:35:41 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: 1900 Letter Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970516063541.006ea9a0@mail.eden.com> At 10:02 PM 5/15/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> I am re-posting this msg in the context of a comment made by Thoa regarding >> unnessary secrecy. I hope those in the administration of Theosophical >> Organizations have read this and thought over its contents and hopefully >> benefit from the advise in the best future interests of Theosophical >> Organizations. > > Well, you don't have a problem with the TSA. John Algeo was visiting >when I gave a talk on the 1900 Letter (we have two talks every >Wednesday, an informal one at 6:30 and an officially announced one at >7:30; John was slated to give the 7:30 talk). He stated that he believed >that the 1900 letter wsa genuine, and was very supportive of what it >said. > > Bart Lidofsky > Glad to see your response. Firstly I have not seen *anyone* in any theosophical organizations/circles questioning the genuineness of the 1900 letter yet. Then it follows that one has to be very supportive of it. Not to be supportive will mean questioning the wisdom of one of the Real Founders (even though the Real Founders don't care what any individual thinks of Them and Their Wisdom) mkr MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:40:29 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Helping others Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970516064029.006d67fc@mail.eden.com> At 04:32 PM 5/15/97 -0400, Gerald Schueler wrote: >First, an indepth knowledge of karma is required, >and secondly the abilty to see into the hearts and minds of others >in order to know when and how to really help them. Only then >can real help be given. I completely agree that an in depth knowledge of Karma and the ability to see into the hearts and minds of others are needed to know when and how to really help. But the practical issue for me is that I am not yet in that stage and I do not know of any one personally who is able to do it. So in the meanwhile, I am trying the best to help based on my best judgement. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:14:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Secrecy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970516161444.00764658@mail.eden.com> Here is a thought in the light of the subject of Secrecy that is discussed here. In the days of old when Initiates were the rulers of the land, the subjects had their total confidence and trust in the wisdom and the judgment of the rulers. In that environment, very little public disclosure was there. Secrecy was the norm and everyone accepted it. Today things have changed. Democracy is the preferred system. With democracy comes openness. Secrecy and Democracy do not go together. There may be isolated instances when secrecy is justified -- especially when governments get involved in dirty missions or the privacy of individuals is at stake. In all other cases, more openness is conducive to better support from the public. Based on the above analogy, today, every organization cannot but benefit from openness. Failing to be open, just has an inbuilt time bomb when some facts come out and enrage the public. We see this very often. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:14:42 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Steiner/German Section/Krishnamurti Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970516161442.00760ac4@mail.eden.com> There have been some discussion in the past on cancellation of national charters by the International President. One such incident which was mentioned was the cancellation of the German Section's Charter during the time of Steiner. The cancellation was done when Annie Besant was the International President. What puzzled me was that having read much about Besant, I could not understand why she cancelled the charter since a decision of this nature is not something trivial and is not something done without some serious fundamental reason. Finally, I found an answer. A letter just published in the Quest Magazine of June 1997 explains. I am quoting the letter in full. ================================ Regarding Steiner and Krishnamurti I apologize for this very late response to an item in the Spring 1995 issue of the Quest. I was browsing through the back copies and spied an item I must have missed the first time around. I refer to Kevin Korody's review of Richard Leviton's book "The Imagination of Pentecost: Rudolf Steiner and Contemporary Spirituality." The review states that Steiner "broke from the Theosophical Society when Annie Besant becan speaking of new world teacher and when Steiner's own clairvoyant insights seemed to contradict certain Theosophical concepts" (89). That is simply a reversal of what took place and ought not to pass unchallenged. In the early 1910s, a number of individuals wrote to Besant from Germany complaining that they were excluded from membership in the Theosophical Society because of their support for Krishnamurti. They had been told by the German Section that they could not be members of the Order of the Star in the East (an organization supporting Krishnamurti) or the Esoteric School and at the same time of the German Section of the Theosophical Society. Furthermore, the German Section expelled members who belonged to the Order of the Star. Annie Besant wrote to Steiner querying these matters, but did not receive a satisfactory reply. When the only result of a further approach was that of defiance, Annie Besant, by direction of the General Council, in March 1912 withdrew the charter of the German Theosophical Society. The conditions of membership in the Theosophical Society instituted by the followers of Steiner were in flat contradiction of the dominant principle of the Society which states, in effect, that there is no teaching that is binding on any member of the Society and that sympathy with the objects is the only requirement of membership. Thus, in fact, Steiner did not resign from the Theosophical Society; he was expelled along with all those who supported his dogmatic stand. The course of events were the result, not of a conflict of opinions or beliefs, but a failure on the part of the German Section under Steiner's General Secretaryship, to allow freedom of belief. All the correspondence relating to this event may be found in various issues of the Theosophist during the period 1911-12. Philip S Harris Director, The Theosophical Retreat Mt. Helena, Western Australia ===================================================== MKR Comments: It is very refreshing to see that the issue was out in the open and was published in the Theosophist. Some time ago, when the American Section was amending their by-laws, the question of cancellation of the Charter of Canadian Section and other Sections in Europe came up during discussions on theos-l. What is intriguing is that I have not seen anything published on the background of these nor have I seen any of the members of the General Council have taken any trouble to inform the membership as to what is going on. The question that arises in my mind is when Annie Besant was able to put the facts out in the open and make membership understand the why of the decision made by the General Council, why the same thing is not done now when the cancellation occurred in more than one section. When bright light shines on the facts, the true situation/problem becomes very clear and obvious for everyone to see. Once again, it is my hope that one of these days we will know the facts. ======================== end=============================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:16:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Secrecy - An antidote Message-ID: <970516151541_-665099968@emout02.mail.aol.com> The Heretic to the Rescue!!!!!! Ok, here's what we do. Everyone get a photograph of your board member, a radionic box and psionic amplifying helmet. When they have the next board meeting, remote view the meeting through the eyes of your board member. If enough of us do it, there should be quite a bit of solid information on what went on even though each person will get an incomplete picture (the degree of completeness varies with individuals). I used this technique years ago to bug ES meetings until I learned how incredibly dull they were. Now, if you are wondering how it works, go to my web site www.amargiland.com/charles-cosimano and look at the section on remote viewing. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:45:30 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: on subjects on past digests Message-ID: <337CB95A.76DB@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hello friends I really don't like to start letters without a "Hello" "How are you?" because as pepole we are, is nice first to talk, and salute ourselves, not for a matter of hypocrisy but more for a dearest matter of friendship, i like to talk, as Bilbo Baggins would like to do, with friends, in a cozy place, in an England-country type place, with forests and little grassy hills and lakes, beside the chimeney and eating pastry and drinking chocolate.that's the way i imagine sometimes friends like you would gather together to talk of this important subjects. I will try to be short. SUBJECTS: YOUNG PEPOLE, CORRUPTION AND HELLO TO ALAN AND ALL. a) > 2. The younger generation is usually physically strong and vigorous, > mentally curious, and emotionally intense. Thus, the younger generation > would be more attracted to experience that will touch on all of those > aspects. That is the natural process of development. > > 3. The T.S. is not very attractive to the younger generation. The > focusing on the Why leads the T.S. to focus mostly on publication, > lectures, and study groups...ZZZZZ...and one wonders why people are > apathetic. It is easier to read books and log on the internet, and then > go out and have a roaring good time! Why join the T.S.? ;o) Thoa said it. yep.I agree with that. is the first time i do quotations, because now i'm using Netscape mail system. I taught it was very important, that's why i put it there. as young woman as i am (25) I sometimes get in the same feeling, i like better hanging with my friends in Mexicali or sometimes here, than being stuffed in some boring church with some boring pepole (even young pepole as i:they take too much seriously) that goes also to some organizations as Masons, Rotary,new age groups and of course the T.S. is not the old pepole the problem, some old pepole are more young of mind that some 30 or 40s pepole, the problem is that, the old taughts of the pepole. I read almost every digest back, since i got sick, but they were so many, that i skip the last ones (theos digest '17-19) i read the very latest,though. (digests '20-22) I follow the discussions, and i find it some very important. is not important who's leader, but the freshness of the mind, that, curiosity, it cristalizes in youth.remember Gandhi. b) The very important points of the discussion keeped between MKRamadoss and Doc Bain (can i call you 'Doc'? is a cute nickname, like Bugs' would say: What's up 'Doc?) Is very alarming and confirms something that i suspected that also would happen here in the T.S.: the corruption (i do not know other word to say it) of some pepole involved in the T.S. (I'm reffering to the case of the Krishnamurti-Land-Money-trusts-etc; is too long long to quote, and too many blabla that i will skip it) I do not belong to any T.S. "Lodge" (I don't like the use of the name "logde" it remains me to the Masonic lodge) or also a group of study or the T.I. i sometimes like to remain free of tights. but i do think Theosophy has the solution of many problems, the problem is that we pepole, because we have some problems,of many years of karma acumulated, we as humans have errors, so then Theosophy don't work as good as should do. but i do not worry of that: the problem, as always, are the leaders that crave for power, or worse,the false leaders that say that they are some way but act of other ways (In Mexico is very common that attitude of hypocrisy on so called "New age" pepole:they have good car, good job, go to yoga, go to meet tibetan monks, eat veggetarian food,and treat nasty to the poor peasant -i'm not shure, but you call in english "pheasant" to the native pepole?- boys that clean windows of the cars and sell bubble gum to survive....'that makes me very angry!!' (space for Thoa gets mad of the terrible fact and also laughs of the remminisance to the martian guy in Looney toons-I'M A VERY SERIOUS PERSON:TRUST ME) I use to call those nasty pepole "New age yuppies" hahahaha :-P Just remember that late 60's song: it says it all: "How can pepole be so heartless How can pepole be so cruel Easy to be hard Easy to say no How can pepole have no feelings How can they ignore there friends Easy to be hard Easy to say no Speccialy pepole who care about strangers Who care about pepole and social injustice Do you only care, about the media How about a needing friend" EASY TO BE HARD And remember what Jesus said: by their work you will recognize them. So don't worry Doc Bain and Doss!! c)To "Doc Bain" I got to see your homepage this week, because i get to use an configurate well this Netscape mail, and i think i will can see pictures that friends of mine send me here.the thing was that some girl named Joyce send some stuff that was .dat that i could'nt see, and with Netscape mail i saw that was some archive 1.2 i do not know what, but finnaly i get to know what was all of that list of signs and numbers,....even that i still could'nt see what was that. Your homepage was very good,Doc.Alan!! you are a brilliant person, and very versed!! i get to see many archives and texts and also see your picture "thedoc" was it i think? WOW!! you are more thin and elder that i would expected, but i did'nt inmagine you had so long hair!! And i think i dream of you the past wenesday WOW!! cool!! I took the liberty of downloading some texts of you there, (i still haven't read them) and the very important letter of someone i forgot the name, but i think it was the most certain letter that i have read of Theosophy in modern times "Politicaly correct Theosophy?" I think he has got the point more certain that some pepole. T.S has to be always at side of the good guys, even that sometimes the good guys are in very different bands (Feminism,Ecologism, etc etc etc) and even then are many fanatics. Theosophy , knowing the point of the' problem, has to deal with that, and orient these person that sometimes get close to Theosophy ,and even if not, get close to them, to orient them, in the correct path. I think is all of so blablabla (sorry:i said i wouldn't last so much) Estrella P.S. Doc Alan, don't get mad if i call you Doc: is just that i couldn't stand so seriously and call you the complete name: is too solemmn! and, sorry, it some makes me sometimes laugh! hahahaha sorry. A good salute here to pepole i know post like my friends Liesel, MK Doss, Thoa, you Doc Bain,Lynn, Kym (thanks) and to the new pepole here. bye ora si. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:09:10 -0800 From: "Leamon T. McDonald" Subject: Flesh & Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: <199705162010.PAA13333@smtp.gte.net> I am very interested in the full concept of the blood & body of Christ. How do you interpret the following scriptures? John Chpt 6 Vs 53&54 Romans Chpt 8 Vs 9 Lev Chpt 17 Vs 11-14 John Chpt 6 Vs 55 I would like to hear from those who feel that they have some information concerning the application and administration of the blood & body. Also, I have a webpage that has a few scriptures and my interpretations, ect... feel free to visit it: http://home1.gte.net/harvestn/index.htm I hope I have inspired some interesting discussion! ;) Thank you, Leamon T. McDonald -harvestn@gte.net "Leamon T. McDonald" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:18:58 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: Just another bite of text (Secrecy) Message-ID: <337CC132.7F97@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hello Just to put another point on the new subjects: M.K.Ramadoss wrote: > There may be > isolated instances when secrecy is justified -- especially when governments > get involved in dirty missions In those cases-when the goverments think they can be allowed to keep secrecy in horrors -and here in Mexico and Latin America we have very well documented cases of those Nightmare stories-secrecy is LESS than justified.is inethical. Estrella. P.S.Another salute to all!! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:05:06 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: secrecy Message-ID: <199705162022.QAA08319@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >I am not >saying that every organization should do this. But this just goes to >demonstrate that doing business openly is practical. I think, Doss, I'd like to stick to what you said originally. The minutes of a board meeting of a public organization should be available to the public. If there is a need for secrecy, like when a congressional committee discusses the inner workings of the CIA, then it should be done in chambers, privately. Barring such an overwhelming need for secrecy, the board's dealings should be public, like the Congressional Record. I think members are entitled, and also wish to know what's going on within their organization. In this vein, I didn't at all appreciate being put in front of a virtual fait accompli with our present by-laws. And when I tried to object, it wasn't published, or rather what was published was so curtailed that it left out all my objections. And they were valid, not dumb. They were just not what the board had decided, and I still resent that nobody ever bothered to say why my ideas weren't considered. And I recently wrote an objection again, because in "The Messenger" they flatly stated that every TS officer was democratically elected. I still don't agree, and I think that's the kind of thing you're talking about. Our board never lets us know what transpires, until it's already all decided upon, not even when it changes the by-laws, which aren't democratic. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:42:56 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: how, why, older generation Message-ID: <199705162100.RAA22402@ultra1.dreamscape.com> 2. if the younger generation is more attracted to experience, the older generation, believes in hands on learning, if they got any sense. Theory without practice is like 19th century gynecology - they learned how to deliver babies in medical school from textbooks with charts. 3. what suggestions do you have for activties, Thoa? I know workshops. Would you have people get up and say "I have this & this problem" and then everyone in the group gets together and tries to suggest different ways to change their Karma? What other ways do you know? 4. We could take shamanic journeys to help someone. They're up the mountain, or into the clouds, or underground. 5. Agreed "cameraderie and intense experience through participation" is more satisfying than listening to long lectures. If they're not at least full of useful ideas, I soon tire. 6. Lack of openness - If I'm too ignorant to know the inner workings of the group, maybe I should go someplace else. Well, I'll tell ya what happened in my case. The ES has all these secret teachings, which I thought were necessary to become a very accomplished Theosophist. I dropped out of the ES after a very short time, because of a personal ethical conflict. But I wanted to learn, so I looked elsewhere. I don't know whether by now I've learned the same things the ES teaches, but I learned enough esoteric things to satisfy me, from several other sources, and today the secrets of the ES don't matter any more Liesel . From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:05:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Flesh & Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: <970516210508_1854686916@emout02.mail.aol.com> Why is it that I hear a thick Russian accent shouting "FLAPDOODLE! FLAPDOODLE!"? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:17:41 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: how, why, older generation Message-ID: <337CEB14.35A1@earthlink.net> > The ES has all these secret teachings Hmm...perhaps thereof the ES may learn that the *secret teachings* are in the hands (or come into the hands) of all who sincerely search for truth...there are no boundaries for the seeking heart :) Shanti, Patrick Alessandra -- *** A.Priori / 1441C Bellevue Way NE / Bellevue, WA 98004 USA *** aprioripa@aol.com / http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:28:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <970516212813_114664914@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-16 13:30:21 EDT, doss wrote: > > This was either a very short anecdote or a very secret one. ;-D I thought Mercury's going direct the other day fixed this. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:28:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Just another bite of text (Secrecy) Message-ID: <970516212823_438347393@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-16 16:38:12 EDT, you write: > M.K.Ramadoss wrote: > > > There may be > > isolated instances when secrecy is justified -- especially when > governments > > get involved in dirty missions > > In those cases-when the goverments think they can be allowed to keep > secrecy in horrors -and here in Mexico and Latin America we have very > well documented cases of those Nightmare stories-secrecy is LESS than > justified.is inethical. > > Estrella. > P.S.Another salute to all!! Estrella, I'm so glad you said that!! When I read Doss's statement I thought I was misunderstanding it because the medications I'm on. I believe that it is the very atmosphere of secrecy itself that allows those "dirty missions" to be bred and conducted. Doss, did you mean when these "dirty missions" are justified by national security in the strictest sense? Of course, here in the US, a lot of secrecy which is "justified" by national security is the result of "if the citizens found out about this, they'd really be ready to take off our heads". And with the cloak of secrecy, why the dirty missions get reallllly dirty. Lynn P.S. Glad to see you're back, Estrella!!!!! Here's a hug. {{{{{Estrella}}}}} From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:36:58 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <337CEF97.4405@earthlink.net> > I thought Mercury's going direct the other day fixed this. Ah...the last two weeks Neptune (weather,water...) & Uranus (electrics...) went retro...but these are mild... P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:22:58 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Hello again! Message-ID: Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm back. A different name and a different sex ...but hey, what the hell. The signature's the same right?:) I look forward to seeing how the conversations have evolved since my departure. I haven't recieved anything yet... --- The Triaist From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:59:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <970516225929_-1399118017@emout18.mail.aol.com> Something is always retrograde. I have decided to try and use radionics to remove planetary influences from my chart altogether and see what happens. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:12:12 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <337D05EB.4ACC@earthlink.net> > Something is always retrograde. Really!?!? you may want to tell astronomers (check your facts...) ..there in fact are many times & seasons of (non-retrograde) direct motion... Cheers, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:22:24 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517032224.006e7b4c@mail.eden.com> At 09:29 PM 5/16/97 -0400, Wildefire@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-16 13:30:21 EDT, doss wrote: > >> >> >This was either a very short anecdote or a very secret one. ;-D > >I thought Mercury's going direct the other day fixed this. > >Lynn > I think there is a problem with the list server. I also got some of the messages with header only, no body. Will repost my msg. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:22:21 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: how, why, older generation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517032221.006de494@mail.eden.com> At 09:19 PM 5/16/97 -0400, Patrick Alessandra Jr. wrote: >> The ES has all these secret teachings > >Hmm...perhaps thereof the ES may learn that the *secret teachings* are >in the hands (or come into the hands) of all who sincerely search for >truth...there are no boundaries for the seeking heart :) Hi everybody: I would like to add what was written by the famous Thesophist Ernest Wood as soon as I find the exact quote. Secondly, I would like to add that there are ample indications that there are many Disciples of the Adepts who are outside the TS. So any earnest student will find all the teachings that he is fitted to receive when the student is ready. Let us go to work for the welfare of Humanity in whatever manner that each one of us can. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:22:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: how, why, older generation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517032228.006f0e00@mail.eden.com> At 05:00 PM 5/16/97 -0400, liesel f. deutsch wrote: >6. Lack of openness - If I'm too ignorant to know the inner workings of the >group, maybe I should go someplace else. Well, I'll tell ya what happened in >my case. The ES has all these secret teachings, which I thought were >necessary to become a very accomplished Theosophist. I dropped out of the ES >after a very short time, because of a personal ethical conflict. But I >wanted to learn, so I looked elsewhere. I don't know whether by now I've >learned the same things the ES teaches, but I learned enough esoteric things >to satisfy me, from several other sources, and today the secrets of the ES >don't matter any more > >Liesel . > Dear Liesel: HS Olcott was never a member of ES, yet he was in direct contact with the Adepts and They knew he could get things done and he did. One time someone asked him if he could give some practical instructions, I believe he told the person that he could not. I think that it is time we need more practical doers than "spiritual" practitioners. Your direction and mileage may vary. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:22:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Just another bite of text (Secrecy) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517032223.006e1900@mail.eden.com> At 09:29 PM 5/16/97 -0400, Wildefire@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-16 16:38:12 EDT, you write: > >> M.K.Ramadoss wrote: >> >> > There may be >> > isolated instances when secrecy is justified -- especially when >> governments >> > get involved in dirty missions >> >> In those cases-when the goverments think they can be allowed to keep >> secrecy in horrors -and here in Mexico and Latin America we have very >> well documented cases of those Nightmare stories-secrecy is LESS than >> justified.is inethical. >> >> Estrella. >> P.S.Another salute to all!! > Hi: I agree with you. As a Humanitarian, any exploitation of other living beings and any cruelty perpetrated on anyone for any cause should be exposed action taken on the perpetrators and any justification citing patriotism, national welfare, etc. etc. is something I can never support. I want this to be made crystal clear. The moment you start compromising on this, we start on a slippery slope. >Estrella, > >I'm so glad you said that!! When I read Doss's statement I thought I was >misunderstanding it because the medications I'm on. I believe that it is the >very atmosphere of secrecy itself that allows those "dirty missions" to be >bred and conducted. Doss, did you mean when these "dirty missions" are >justified by national security in the strictest sense? Of course, here in the >US, a lot of secrecy which is "justified" by national security is the result >of "if the citizens found out about this, they'd really be ready to take off >our heads". And with the cloak of secrecy, why the dirty missions get >reallllly dirty. helicoptors circulating overhead!!!! Arrrrrrgh, gotta send this off, purge my >hard drive, etc. before They see it!!!!!!!!!!!!> > See my comments above. There is no justification or compromise. >Lynn >P.S. Glad to see you're back, Estrella!!!!! Here's a hug. {{{{{Estrella}}}}} > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:22:29 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Just another bite of text (Secrecy) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517032229.006f3368@mail.eden.com> At 04:24 PM 5/16/97 -0400, Romero Cortez D.Ma wrote: >Hello >Just to put another point on the new subjects: >M.K.Ramadoss wrote: > >> There may be >> isolated instances when secrecy is justified -- especially when governments >> get involved in dirty missions > >In those cases-when the goverments think they can be allowed to keep >secrecy in horrors -and here in Mexico and Latin America we have very >well documented cases of those Nightmare stories-secrecy is LESS than >justified.is inethical. > >Estrella. >P.S.Another salute to all!! Hi Estrella, my salute to you and everyone: Anything that is against the first Object -- Brotherhood or Sisterhood or Siblinghood or Humanhood -- cannot be justified by any argument or justification. Usually such reasons as Patriotism, Nationalism, national interests, even some times some pseudo spiritual or religious ones etc will be used to justify all kinds of cruelty perpetrated by man(woman) against man(woman). The moment you compromise, in my opinion you are in a slippery slope. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:22:31 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: on subjects on past digests Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517032231.006f5294@mail.eden.com> At 03:48 PM 5/16/97 -0400, Romero Cortez D.Ma wrote: >Hello friends >I really don't like to start letters without a "Hello" "How are you?" >because as pepole we are, is nice first to talk, and salute ourselves, >not for a matter of hypocrisy but more for a dearest matter of >friendship, i like to talk, as Bilbo Baggins would like to do, with >friends, in a cozy place, in an England-country type place, with forests >and little grassy hills and lakes, beside the chimeney and eating pastry >and drinking chocolate.that's the way i imagine sometimes friends like >you would gather together to talk of this important subjects. >I will try to be short. Hello Romero: I agree with you. It is so easy to start with some nice salutation. Usually when I write to other members of the TS, I always salute with Dear Brother. There are Theosophists who will address you as Dear Brother, only if you agree with them. The moment you do not toe their line or philosophy or politics or their objectives and you object to anything they say or do, they don't think addressing as Dear Brother as being proper. >SUBJECTS: YOUNG PEPOLE, CORRUPTION AND HELLO TO ALAN AND ALL. >a) >> 2. The younger generation is usually physically strong and vigorous, >> mentally curious, and emotionally intense. Thus, the younger generation >> would be more attracted to experience that will touch on all of those >> aspects. That is the natural process of development. > >> 3. The T.S. is not very attractive to the younger generation. The >> focusing on the Why leads the T.S. to focus mostly on publication, >> lectures, and study groups...ZZZZZ...and one wonders why people are >> apathetic. It is easier to read books and log on the internet, and then >> go out and have a roaring good time! Why join the T.S.? ;o) > >Thoa said it. yep.I agree with that. is the first time i do quotations, >because now i'm using Netscape mail system. >I taught it was very important, that's why i put it there. as young >woman as i am (25) I sometimes get in the same feeling, i like better >hanging with my friends in Mexicali or sometimes here, than being >stuffed in some boring church with some boring pepole (even young pepole >as i:they take too much seriously) that goes also to some organizations >as Masons, Rotary,new age groups and of course the T.S. is not the old >pepole the problem, some old pepole are more young of mind that some 30 >or 40s pepole, the problem is that, the old taughts of the pepole. >I read almost every digest back, since i got sick, but they were so >many, that i skip the last ones (theos digest '17-19) i read the very >latest,though. (digests '20-22) I follow the discussions, and i find it >some very important. is not important who's leader, but the freshness of >the mind, that, curiosity, it cristalizes in youth.remember Gandhi. There is a very famous saying which says "Catch Them Young". It is the young when fired with idealism can carry us far. During my early days with Theosophy, in most of the lodges one of the most frequent and popular subject was Life After Death. I can understand it because there were quite a few members who were in their 50s and 60s who were very interested in it. What was missing was a focus and direction during the time we are alive and not concentrate on what is going to happen after we are dead. For the living people with whom we interact and affect, it is far more important what we do when we are alive and not what we will do when we are dead. Back to the focus on the young, here in the USA, Theosophical Society has a program called "Elder Hostel" where mostly retired Senior Citizens come and attend I believe a week long program at the National Headquarters. I think it would do some good to the attendees. But I thing we need "Younger Hostel" -- may be 10 of them for each one of the Elder Hostels so that we can "Catch them Young". In addition, I think it would be a good idea for each National Section to have a couple of members selected/elected/appointed to the Board of Directors who are young -- say 25 years or less so that the perspective of the young can be brought to the attention of the older members of the Board of Directors. It is going to be very difficult for an old man or woman to think like a young man or woman. While in worldly matters, experience and grey hair is equated to worldly wisdom, in spiritual matters age should neither be an advantage nor a handicap. Just my ideas, however crazy it may be to others. > >b) >The very important points of the discussion keeped between MKRamadoss >and Doc Bain (can i call you 'Doc'? is a cute nickname, like Bugs' would >say: What's up 'Doc?) Is very alarming and confirms something that i >suspected that also would happen here in the T.S.: the corruption (i do >not know other word to say it) of some pepole involved in the T.S. (I'm >reffering to the case of the Krishnamurti-Land-Money-trusts-etc; is too >long long to quote, and too many blabla that i will skip it) >I do not belong to any T.S. "Lodge" (I don't like the use of the name >"logde" it remains me to the Masonic lodge) or also a group of study or >the T.I. i sometimes like to remain free of tights. but i do think >Theosophy has the solution of many problems, the problem is that we >pepole, because we have some problems,of many years of karma acumulated, >we as humans have errors, so then Theosophy don't work as good as should >do. but i do not worry of that: the problem, as always, are the leaders >that crave for power, or worse,the false leaders that say that they are >some way but act of other ways (In Mexico is very common that attitude >of hypocrisy on so called "New age" pepole:they have good car, good job, >go to yoga, go to meet tibetan monks, eat veggetarian food,and treat >nasty to the poor peasant -i'm not shure, but you call in english >"pheasant" to the native pepole?- boys that clean windows of the cars >and sell bubble gum to survive....'that makes me very angry!!' (space >for Thoa gets mad of the terrible fact and also laughs of the >remminisance to the martian guy in Looney toons-I'M A VERY SERIOUS >PERSON:TRUST ME) >I use to call those nasty pepole "New age yuppies" hahahaha :-P >Just remember that late 60's song: it says it all: > Well said. The moment you are not sensitive to the downtrodden and poor, that is the beginning of the problem. Sooner or later, the problems of the poor is going to affect all of us and we may pay a very high price in the long run. > >"How can pepole be so heartless >How can pepole be so cruel >Easy to be hard >Easy to say no >How can pepole have no feelings >How can they ignore there friends >Easy to be hard >Easy to say no >Speccialy pepole who care about strangers >Who care about pepole and social injustice >Do you only care, about the media >How about a needing friend" > >EASY TO BE HARD > >And remember what Jesus said: by their work you will recognize them. >So don't worry Doc Bain and Doss!! > >c)To "Doc Bain" >I got to see your homepage this week, because i get to use an >configurate well this Netscape mail, and i think i will can see pictures >that friends of mine send me here.the thing was that some girl named >Joyce send some stuff that was .dat that i could'nt see, and with >Netscape mail i saw that was some archive 1.2 i do not know what, but >finnaly i get to know what was all of that list of signs and >numbers,....even that i still could'nt see what was that. >Your homepage was very good,Doc.Alan!! you are a brilliant person, and >very versed!! i get to see many archives and texts and also see your >picture "thedoc" was it i think? WOW!! you are more thin and elder that >i would expected, but i did'nt inmagine you had so long hair!! >And i think i dream of you the past wenesday WOW!! cool!! I took the >liberty of downloading some texts of you there, (i still haven't read >them) and the very important letter of someone i forgot the name, but i >think it was the most certain letter that i have read of Theosophy in >modern times "Politicaly correct Theosophy?" >I think he has got the point more certain that some pepole. >T.S has to be always at side of the good guys, even that sometimes the >good guys are in very different bands (Feminism,Ecologism, etc etc etc) >and even then are many fanatics. Theosophy , knowing the point of the' >problem, has to deal with that, and orient these person that sometimes >get close to Theosophy ,and even if not, get close to them, to orient >them, in the correct path. >I think is all of so blablabla (sorry:i said i wouldn't last so much) >Estrella >P.S. Doc Alan, don't get mad if i call you Doc: is just that i couldn't >stand so seriously and call you the complete name: is too solemmn! and, >sorry, it some makes me sometimes laugh! hahahaha sorry. >A good salute here to pepole i know post like my friends Liesel, MK >Doss, Thoa, you Doc Bain,Lynn, Kym (thanks) and to the new pepole here. >bye ora si. > Exposure to Theosophy does indeed affect the person. "Theosophists" tend to see the broader problems with an objective perspective coupled with the welfare of the human beings. That helps the individual and everyone who comes into contact with them. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:26:55 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Hello again! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517032655.00703d08@mail.eden.com> At 10:22 PM 5/16/97 -0400, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: >Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm back. A different name and a different >sex ...but hey, what the hell. The signature's the same right?:) > >I look forward to seeing how the conversations have evolved since my >departure. I haven't recieved anything yet... > >--- >The Triaist > Hi You can get all the archived msgs since you left. Just send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with index theos-l in the body Then request the particular archive. That is all and you will miss nothing. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:27:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517032752.006e2374@mail.eden.com> At 11:01 PM 5/16/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >Something is always retrograde. I have decided to try and use radionics to >remove planetary influences from my chart altogether and see what happens. > >Chuck the Heretic > Keep us informed of your progress. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:20:34 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Flesh and Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: <199705171720.KAA08063@palrel1.hp.com> "Leamon T. McDonald" wrote: > I am very interested in the full concept of the blood & body of > Christ. Enough true saints have placed their faith in the sacrament that I would have to say there is something to it, both literally and symbolically. Theresa Neumann, the Bavarian stigmatist lived only off the sacrament and took no other food, yet looked pretty hefty in her pictures. In Garabandal, Spain, a Marian apparition site, a photographer caught a waver of bread manifesting on the expectant tongue of one of the visionaries. One can always suspect fraud, but there are enough corroborating testimonies that I think not. (Read of Paramahansa Yogananda's yogic attunement to Theresa Neumann in "Autobiography of a Yogi"). Furthermore the ritual has survived all these centuries, indicating some kind of psychic vitality in it. But why bread and wine and why do we say we are eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus? It does seem rather peculiar. I couldn't give any real answer but here are some reflections. In communion, bread is substance, body, matter, form; and wine is spirit, transcendence. Jesus, as a polarized and balanced being, had both earthly and heavenly qualities in equal measure. In taking communion, one internalizes His qualities and is made of "one body in Christ" (St. Paul). In ancient times, there was a belief that to incorporate the qualities of an animal, you had to eat it. It seems to me that there is a both a 1) literal and 2) symbolic truth here. 1) Symbolic because you really have to internalize or digest a trait, or make it part of you before you can really gain any benefit by it. Take the playfulness of an otter. (If you've never seen one, they are the most fun-loving creatures on the planet.) You can study the otter's movements and possibly gain nothing, but after a serious holistic effort, you can say that you have cultivated a "gut" or body level capacity for enjoyment of life. 2) Literal because there is some vibration in all food. You probably missed the long and loud debate on vegetarianism and food on this list, but suffice it to say that a form of the literal belief (justly) survives today. Rambling thoughts. To quote a great theosophical sage, "Your mileage and direction may vary." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:53:15 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Impersonality Message-ID: <199705171753.KAA08886@palrel1.hp.com> liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) wrote: > 3. what suggestions do you have for activties, Thoa? I know workshops. Would > you have people get up and say "I have this & this problem" and then > everyone in the group gets together and tries to suggest different ways to > change their Karma? What other ways do you know? I'll butt in here with a long and garrulous digression way off the subject (Oops! Excuse me, Thoa, didn't mean to step on your toes like that. These clumsy white men ... ;) Having had some experience in groups, I would only caution that the atmosphere in a spiritual group be caring, but impersonal. Or if you like, Personal with the capital P. It is a very exacting thing working with the karma of another. You can get pulled in to the other's karma in such a way that it harms both you and the one you would help. This doesn't mean that the caring is not intense or that you are not changed yourself, but that you respect the other's volition and their need to learn possibly from taking quite a fall. Consequences of being over-personalized: feels great at first (or maybe it feels icky), expectations become unrealistic, attached strings become evident, disappointments set in, irritations develop into separateness. In every group there is at least one Judas mentality of politicized expectations. Not infrequently a portion of that mentality is in each member. A personal agenda is pushed, possibly dressed in some noble garb. He or she is used to test members true intents. HPB called it the dweller action. I don't know what Judas's expectations were of Jesus, but they seemed to be for a worldly or political kind of victory for his oppressed people. Jesus had to remind him, "My kingdom is not of this world." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:37:02 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: how, why, older generation Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970517032228.006f0e00@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes > Your direction and mileage may vary. Hmmm. Mine is 6 miles from the Atlantic, extreme SW Cornwall (UK). I just got a new Pentium Mutimedia thingummy, so the usual TI sig is not yet in place, and I need to transfer some files from an earlier version of my dialup software, so if I haven't replied to anyone waiting to hear from me, please let me know ASAP. Ta. Alan -- Dr. A.M.Bain (TI) http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:33:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hello again! Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm back. A different name and a different >sex ...but hey, what the hell. The signature's the same right?:) > >I look forward to seeing how the conversations have evolved since my >departure. I haven't recieved anything yet... > >--- >The Triaist > Welcome back. Err ... Could you change "The Triaist" as well? Like go the whole way? Alan :-) -- Alan Bain of Theosophy International: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:12:06 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <1lg7SAAGMgfzEwJo@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <337D05EB.4ACC@earthlink.net>, "Patrick Alessandra Jr." writes >> Something is always retrograde. > >Really!?!? you may want to tell astronomers (check your facts...) >..there in fact are many times & seasons of (non-retrograde) direct >motion... > >Cheers, >P Chuck is always retrograde - which makes him right. (Chuck - send money) Alan :-) -- Theosophy International http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:59:46 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: The hippee Message-ID: Estrella: >Your homepage was very good,Doc.Alan!! you are a brilliant person, and >very versed!! i get to see many archives and texts and also see your >picture "thedoc" was it i think? WOW!! you are more thin and elder that >i would expected, but i did'nt inmagine you had so long hair!! Ooh, another dart board. I have one already, Chuckie's. Anyone else with his/her picture on the web? Doc Alan is a flamboyant hippee, is he not, Estrella? :o) Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:00:26 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Salutations Message-ID: Hi Estrella and Doss, When I first started on this list, I usually start off all of my letters with hi's and howdy's. Then I noticed that nobody else is doing that. That made me feel like some naive howdy-doody. Thus, I decided to follow in with the group scheme of things. Now, my thinking is this. I see this list as a continuous discussion meeting. That is, when we are discussing something, we don't usually give a salutation with every response. Of course, it's nice to say it once in a while, particularly if one has been out of the loop for a while. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 13:59:53 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Impersonality Message-ID: I generally agree with what you said, Titus, even if you are a clumsy white man.:o) I, too, have noticed the problems of getting too personal. The problem with getting too personal is that if problems arose, an intense feeling of betrayal will arise. If the group leader is personal with a member, the leader will more likely try to control the member through the emotions involved in friendship, that is, the leader will feel a need to get personally involved by giving advice, help, etc. The member will feel an emotional bond and dependence on the leader/friend. Leader and friend have combined to form a warped older sibling/parental and younger sibling/child relationship. When the "child" have grown independent, there is usually a feeling of betrayal from the leader ("I have done everything for you!"), and a feeling of betrayal from the member ("You have manipulated and controlled me all this time!"). I also notice that in a group professing siblinghood, there is often great confusion between impersonal siblinghood and personal siblinghood. Some confusion resulted in affairs. Some resulted in false closeness. Time was not factored into friendship and closeness. Some group members think they can just look into your eyes, see an old soul, perhaps see a connection in the past life, and instantly bond with you. I've noticed a lot of people constantly hug and profess love for each other, but would never visit or do things with those same people outside of the group meeting, as people would in a normal friendship. For myself, I prefer the normal stuff. If someone wants to be my friend, they're going to have to go through the same developing friendship stuff as the rest of the world. Does that person care about you? Does that person want to do things with you? Does that person remember your birthday? As far as all those hugs and love, I'm sorry, but I usually reserve those for people I know and love, who were around for me. I don't think the answer is to stay impersonal always, with the exception of group leaders. Group leaders should stay impersonal with the group, stay concerned and involved with ideas, but definitely emotionally impersonal. The rest of the members should get real in their relationships, that is, stay very grounded when it concerns developing a friendship. Regarding Judas: What Buddha said about desire being the source of suffering is oh, so true. Based on personal experience and observation of others, desire can drive a normally sane person to commit irrational acts. For example, a person wanting a certain material thing will spend more than s/he can afford, ditto for revenge, love affairs, power, job position, helping humanity, etc. That is what causes conflict among people, along with other suffering. When I was a youth, I find my mind often obsessing about a want and rationalizing everything toward getting that want. As a woman, I've learned (not perfectly) to let go of a want when the tide is against toward getting it. That is, I will not force it to the point that it will cause suffering. Others should try this. When the wanting is too intense, and I'm sure one knows when one want something badly, just take a deep breath and say, "C'est la vie!" Thoa, rambling back. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:00:39 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Welcome back! Message-ID: Triaist man(?): >Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm back. A different name and a different >sex ...but hey, what the hell. The signature's the same right?:) > >I look forward to seeing how the conversations have evolved since my >departure. I haven't recieved anything yet... > >--- >The Triaist Welcome back! It does take a while for a sex change to take effect. It's great to have another woman join the list.:o) It's good to see that the eloquent Keith is back, too. Now, if Ann will come back, we will have the same crew as when I first started. Kym needs to write in more with her precisely deadly pen, too. No battle of the sexes since you left. No fruitism, either. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 14:00:55 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: How, why, compromises Message-ID: Liesel: >2. if the younger generation is more attracted to experience, the older >generation, believes in hands on learning, if they got any sense. Theory >without practice is like 19th century gynecology - they learned how to >deliver babies in medical school from textbooks with charts. > >3. what suggestions do you have for activties, Thoa? I know workshops. Would >you have people get up and say "I have this & this problem" and then >everyone in the group gets together and tries to suggest different ways to >change their Karma? What other ways do you know? Hi Liesel, To get some answers, let's look at some observations, besides what I stated about the younger generation: TEACHING OBSERVATIONS: In my experience with 5-8 years old, the children require strong guidance, simplicity, and freedom of expression (Basically, someone strictly telling them to adhere to doing certain things, and yet within that confine, with very little expectation of the result). Materials taught should be in a simple, experiential manner, e.g. lots of colors, shapes, using simple motor skills. The teacher should also act in a parental manner. With young college age students (around 18 years old), a very relaxed friendly setting is required. The students abhor authoritarian figures. However, strong rules have to be laid out with clear consequences stated, or else the students will lose interest, skip classes, etc. At that age, who wants to be in a classroom? Materials taught should be challenging with the teacher expecting certain results, and should be full of experiences beyond the classroom. The expectations should be clear as far as certain aesthetic quality (as in art), and yet very open to allow for unique visions. The teacher, in critiquing, basically, has to do mental gymnastics, seeing results in different point of views. That is, in critiquing, the teacher should note the effort put in, the critical thinking, and the creative effort. Basic environment is challenging and yet flexible. With older folks who are pretty much set in their ways, the teaching is more geared toward what they are used to, and yet somehow diplomatically try to make them add different perspectives to their repertoire. They are usually more self-driven about what they need to do, do it with great effort, and yet those qualities are also responsible for them to be less receptive about trying different things. It's hard to try to get them to paint abstract art when they're used to flowers, and vice versa. In this case, the teacher should not shock the student too much by trying to change the student, but rather just find strengths in what the student already knows. OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THESOPHIST EXPECTATIONS: I don't know much about politics, etc., but here are some things I've noted. The basic goals are search for truth, siblinghood and service to humanity. One of the intention was to replace what was lacking in religions, perhaps correcting reliance on superstition, emotionalism, and factionalism. There is a lot of factionalism among theosophists. Theosophists are superstitious and emotional despite themselves. Helena Blavatsky was quite superstitious herself and obviously emotional (why would she swear so much?). This conflict between what is ideal and what is natural have made the T.S. create its own archetype. By not compromising with the natural, conflicts arose, membership dwindled, and factionalism resulted. Instead of finding strength in its archetype, apply acceptance and forgiveness, the T.S. have chosen to shut out those members. Vice versa for the rejected members in which T.S. rules have become the archetype. OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE INTERNET: The internet is great for bringing in those who may not converse with theosophists any other way. There are several groups who would be interested: people who heavily rely on the computer for occupation, information, and communication; retired people; and young people who have always known the computer. Because of the internet, people are more likely to do a web search on theosophy due to their encounter with it through readings, friends, etc. The internet fails when it comes to human contact, experiences, and guidance. The virtual is not as powerful as the actual. On the other hand, sometimes actual contact may not be that great. Someone may have a hard time listening to what you have to say because of your nervous tics. :o) Again, the internet is often the first time someone has an experience with REAL theosophists. There are certain expectations after reading those wonderful books, and these expectations may either be let down or met through the internet. Since postings are information sources, there is a conflict between giving out information, and giving out wrong impressions. For example, it may be good for newbees to learn about all the grievances among theosophists, but it may also turn off newbees to theosophy. ...with those observations.... SOME IDEAS: Some activities could be workshops and more permanent classes. The permanent classes can be classical and new theosophical studies, martial arts which also focuses on mind/body/spirituality discipline, visual/spiritual arts, written arts (writing as opposed to just reading), psychology/karma (what drives one to commit certain acts/karmic results/analysis of solutions), and whatever else anybody can think of. The workshops could be weekend intense experiences, such as journey into nature (including rituals from tribal cultures with history of intense nature experiences), dancing/drumming, meditation, psionic bombing effects :o), etc. The two cores would be meetings to discuss general topics and concerns (a way for theosophists to get and give feedbacks to each other, this is critical), and volunteerism (preferably in an organized and group manner so that there would be more group dynamics). Thus, we can have classes as ongoing lessons, workshops as lightning bolts of experiences, and cores as a way of unification and direction toward the main purpose, which is to do good. Also, there should be a way for members to air grievances with a commitment to solution, forgiveness, and unification. For example, if one member is griping behind another's back to others, that member should be confronted in a group so that the griping would be out in the open and solved, keeping in mind that there will be forgiveness and no stigma attached. HOW DO THESE THINGS START?: Feedback, feedback! If everyone takes responsibility for giving feedback, things could develop toward more than just talking. With only a couple people giving feedback here and there in a long while, pretty soon the energy will peter out. As I said and as Liesel said, I can always go somewhere else that suits me. Feedback turning into clear plans, plans turn into concrete projects, projects start small and grow bigger. We all have our personal responsibility and jobs. If everyone chips in a little here and there, something could happen. The problem with the internet community is that everyone is dispersed internationally, and it is all virtual. The momentum may be great on the internet, but at the local level, the theosophist may find the task daunting. People start workshops all the time. Theosophists living in the same area can band together to form workshops as a beginning. Workshops can later turn into classes, etc. Help, financial or otherwise, can be requested through the internet. Of course, theosophists are no fools, thus requests from a long time internet contributor would probably be more effective, and plenty of clear information should be provided. And a million and one more ways that I can't think of right now. Whatever it is, the main thing is group contribution. If everybody cares, things will come to fruition. If few cares, nothing will come to fruition. SOME HEALING SUGGESTIONS: Prominent theosophists should be more willing to mingle with the rest of the chaps, be willing to listen to ideas, and give strong feedback. Whatever's instituted, one of the goals should be a reunification of all theosophists. Steps should be clearly taken toward that. How can theosophists expect war to stop in the world if they can't forgive, forget, and compromise among themselves. Don't think in terms of "I'm going to go out and form my own group that will meet my goals." or "Let those dissenting theosophists go where they may.", instead, constantly think in terms of all your sibling theosophists, wherever they are. I appreciate the fact that Einar is doing that. Reset those electrical circuits! All theosophists should go through a mandatory comedy course. ...anyhow, blah, blah, blah, I'm out of steam. Any ideas? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:21:15 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS/ES/Masonic etc. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517222115.006ae530@mail.eden.com> Hello everybody: Here is an extensive quote from a book by Ernest Wood, "Is this Theosophy?" which is an extremely rare book and you may not find it in your lodge library. For anyone who does not know about Wood, he was an Englishman who after being exposed to Theosophy and its ideal, went to India when he was 25 years of age. He paid his own way and sustained himself with his own funds. For the first five years he was the personal secretary of CWL and knew him better than anyone else. Later, he was one of the tutors of Jiddu Krishnamurti. After the death of Annie Besant, he ran for the International President and George Arundale was elected. The following excerpt is of great interest in that it touches upon the subject of TS, ES, and Masonic Organization and the observations and comments comes from someone who has had first hand knowledge. I am posting a separate msg on some of the things he has discussed here. ========================================= Dependence upon leaders was always a weak point in the Society, although the original intention had been to base everything on rationality, even in the study of abnormal things. Some would say: " See how the mother cat has to carry her kittens about while they are small. Why should it not be so in occult matters ? " Others, thinking this a trifle extreme, would prefer the simile of the young monkey, which clings to its mother with its own hands. This " monkey policy " was often put forward by leaders and would-be leaders who considered that the act of choosing a leader to be approached for orders and hints to be obeyed implicitly constituted all the positivity of character necessary for occult development. Only a few held that if members of the Theosophical Society had not yet been weaned it was about time to begin; I was one of these, and therefore destined for ultimate unpopularity. But I anticipate. My membership in the Theosophical Society brought into my life a social element which had been lacking before. At first I used to walk part of the way home from the Lodge meetings with a young business man who was very much taken with a literary young lady who used to bore us with her excessive enthusiasm for Plato. They tried to supplant our President, and put the young lady in office instead, but the scheme was not a success. The young man did not remain a member for very long. After that, I generally walked home with a lady who was about thirty years my senior, but as lively as a cricket, and I am almost tempted to say as small. She had been manageress in some sort of factory where many girls were employed, and had retired on a tiny pension. We used to talk much about systems of yoga and methods of meditation, in which I was greatly interested. She was a member of the Eastern School of Theosophy, an organization composed only of members of the Theosophical Society, but not officially connected with it. There were frequent references to this school in the writings of Mme Blavatsky and Mrs. Besant. When introducing new members to the Society Mrs. Besant would often speak of the " further step " which they could take after some time by joining the E.S. Its proceedings were entirely secret, under pledge, so I could not ask what its methods of meditation were. But I used to tell my friend that I was puzzled by the fact that its members appeared to have no more knowledge and no more self-control than other people, and I disliked the slight atmosphere of superiority and sacerdotalism which seemed to surround it. When it came to matters of election to office, or the selection of speakers, membership in the " E.S." was certainly an asset. At the time of the election of Committee members for the British Section of the Society, lists of " suitable people " were sent round privately. I joined the School after some time, and did not find its systems of meditation as good as those which I already knew and had been privately practicing. In saying this I do not break any pledge, for I do not say what those meditations were. I was always very much against anything which might have an hypnotic effect in meditation. Repetition of formulas; dwelling in thought on Masters' forms, with vows of fidelity and obedience; prayers to the Masters, asking them for guidance and blessing. All seemed to be bad psychology and bad reverence. If Masters were there, surely they would do their utmost without being asked. And the habit of thinking every day of them or of their disciples with requests and hopes for orders or guidance seemed to me to lead to paralysis of initiative, in which alone I thought either intuition or inner guidance could find its opportunity. I was ready to admit the principle of mystical union with higher intelligence than my own. That was a matter of both logic and experience. Logic, since in the world visible to the senses our physical powers are enchanced by harmonious co- operation with the laws and forces of nature. I disliked the formula " the conquest of nature " often employed in connection with scientific achievement. In the use of wind, steam, electricity, we were simply co-operating or associating intelligently with the forces of the greater world outside our personality. To one convinced of thought-transference such association mentally was also a reasonable idea. When a thinker has a flash of intuition, as is common among scientists and philosophers, I could regard it as a kind of mental contact with a deeper intelligence, or a world of ideas, even a universal mind or some great world of life in which live the liberated souls. That also was in accord with experience. Many people had declared that they sometimes felt themselves illuminated with an intelligence altogether greater than any which they felt that they could call their own. I had myself! had such experience a number-of times. Even if the Masters did retain actual human form, their aim would be to advise: men to become responsive to that world, not to become worshippers of themselves and mere followers to carry out orders or hints given by them. Such were my thoughts. Certainly above everything I wanted to meet a Master, not to worship him externally, but to be of his company and his mode and order of life. The new social contacts of the Lodge were most precious to me. Here was friendship and brotherhood, without safeguards such as those of the drawing-room, where religion and economics are tacitly avoided. I resented the E.S. a little, as forming a cleavage within our brotherhood. How could we discuss important subjects if some among us were pledged to mental reservations, or if you assumed that they knew what others did not know and were not allowed to know ? Another movement which seemed to me to harm our brotherhood was the Co-Masonry, which was taken up eagerly by some of our members some time after I had joined the Lodge. I was perhaps a little jealous of this, as the members who would not help the Lodge in its financial difficulties could find much money for the new Masonic movement. We had had various proposals to reduce expenditure. We had even removed the Lodge to smaller premises, comparatively obscure and inconvenient. Scarcely had the removal taken place when up came this question of starting a Co-Masonic Lodge. All the leading members were canvassed on the subject; it was whispered round that the Masters were keenly anxious to have the new movement promoted, and would give of their power and force to or through those who joined it. In a trice the members hustled to ransack their monetary resources, and very soon hundreds of pounds were forthcoming. Most of those who could afford it could not resist the concreteness and the its organized access to the Masters' power and blessing. Again and again prominent members pressed me to join the Masonic movement. Did I not believe that there was a European Master behind it ? He would probably manifest himself visibly to the members; it might be at the meetings to be held during the forthcoming Theosophical Convention i in Budapest. One leading member told me about a doctor who helped a certain poor man as soon as he learned that he was a Mason. This was real brotherhood, was it not ? No, communalism. But that was a step towards universal brotherhood ? It did not seem so to me; it was a step Downwards from it. Later, I joined the movement in India, on the proposal of Mrs. Besant. After the first meeting I was chatting with Mr. Leadbeater. " How did you get on ? " he asked. "I have told more lies to-night than in all the rest of my life," I sadly replied. This was, of course, no criticism of Masonry. It is no secret that there are rituals and formulas. It was simply that I had said what I had been told to say, but again and again it did not agree with my own thought and belief. After I had been Vice-President of the Lodge for two or three years, our President fell ill and it became my duty to carry on his work. At last he died, and I was elected President in his place. During these years a deep friendship had grown up between us. I had been a frequent visitor at his house and had even been on holidays with him and his wife and little girl. We went to the country and to the Isle of Wight. It was something new to me to pick flowers in the woods with a little child. When the father died, I was there to help, to console, to fill the gap to some extent, or rather to be a distraction from the emptiness. Often after that I took the little girl, now thirteen years old, for bicycle rides. Something new, clean and simple came into my life, which till then had consciously known nothing but struggle and conflict. I had no intention of going to India. That was brought about by psychic experiences. I cannot say whether these in turn were brought about by some activity of my subc Conscious mind or were actual occurrences. I can only report what happened, or seemed to happen. One evening, when I was sitting in meditation with the group of friends I have already mentioned, I suddenly became aware of a Master standing opposite me across the table, and speaking to me. He put me through a kind of catechism. Did I understand what honesty meant ? Did I know the importance of it ? Did I consider myself honest ? Somehow I was made to see the tremendous value of perfect honesty not simply honesty in speech and in dealing with others, but also honesty in knowing oneself. Yes, I was very honest according to the world's standards, but I could not say that I was always fundamentally honest to myself. After some time there was a pause and suddenly I became aware of a hand lightly resting on my left shoulder. Looking that way although I do not think that I opened my eyes or made any movement saw, or thought I saw, Mme Blavatsky (who had then been dead for about seventeen years) standing beside me. She was laughing, and looking not at me, but across in front of me towards my right. Following her gaze I saw Colonel Olcott standing there (he had been dead about a year). Mme Blavatsky spoke to him, merely the words: " He's ripe, Olcott; we'll send him to India." Then the vision faded. I opened my eyes and became aware again of my friends sitting round the table. At the time the vision gave me no surprise. It seemed perfectly natural that the Master should be there he was as familiar to me as my own father. It seemed quite natural also that Mme Blavatsky and Colonel Olcott should be there, like familiar friends. It was not this vision that decided me to go to India, however. I was not prepared to give so much credit to visions. Besides, had I not seen in our experimental group that even reliable clairvoyants unconsciously embellished what they saw with elements drawn from their own personalities ? I went on with my life as usual, merely wondering whether I would ever go to India or not. Something more happened, however. One night, as I was going home alone on top of a tramcar, I seemed to see Mrs. Besant in front of me, asking me to come to her. Still, I took no notice. In my opinion there was nothing decisive enough to call for any action. Then another vision came. I was going down some steps from a railway station at night. The steps were roofed in, and only dimly lighted. Suddenly the whole cavern-like place was brightly illuminated, and I saw Mrs. Besant standing before me in a golden radiance. She spoke: " I want you to come and help me." That night, when I reached home I told my father that I had a fancy to take a trip to India for three months. Would he help my brother to look after the business in my absence ? Yes, of course. I did not tell him nor my friends at the Lodge of my reason for going, though I had told my friends in the meditation group of my vision there. I took a Japanese steamer to Colombo from London, in November, 1908, and my father came with me to London to see me off. I meant to go for a three months' trip to see what would happen. I had no idea that India would become my home and that I should not see England again for over thirteen years. ==================== end ==================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:21:25 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS/ES/Masonic Org etc. - Ernest Wood Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517222125.0069cda0@mail.eden.com> Hello everybody: I have just posted an extensive excerpt from Ernest Wood's book "Is This Theosophy?." I think some of the observations of Wood is very relevant to understand some of the issues concerning TS/ES/Masonic org. I want to make certain observations in the light of the various discussions that has taken place on theos-l. Firstly the question of the dependence on the leaders. Let us keep in mind the warning issued by K.H. in the famous 1900 letter about Popery. Since Wood espoused the stand that the membership should be weaned from both the "cat policy" and "monkey policy". This taken with the comment by Radha Burnier, our International President that Krishnaji by his questioning outlook on all spiritual matters has saved the TS, seems to indicate that it is time to revisit the whole issue and it may well be the salvation and the future of the TS. Secondly his observation that he had been practicing a system of meditation which he found better than the one taught in the ES which he found out after joining the ES. At the same time, we need to note that even before he joined the ES, he was in touch with some higher being, probably an Adept which he did not identify, indicates clearly that Adepts are waiting to help the individuals who are ready to help them no matter whether you are inside the TS or outside the TS. It only seems logical that the Adepts will make use of any one who can help them no matter where they are and what their affiliation in the physical world are. Thirdly I would like to point out his comment about his resentment about ES as forming a cleavage within our brotherhood. Also how when it came to election to office, selection of speakers how ES played a part and also how privately a list of "suitable people" were sent at the time of election of Committee Members of the British Section. The committee members are like the Directors in the TSA. I have no reason to believe anything has changed world over. Fourthly his view how the Masonic organization seemed to him to harm the brotherhood of the members of TS even though it is pushed subtly. Also his comments on what he had to do when he joined Masonry is very interesting. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:08:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Secrecy - An anecdote Message-ID: <970517190837_-1902025411@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-17 15:44:57 EDT, you write: >Chuck is always retrograde - which makes him right. > > And Chuck has had it up to his helmet with planets being retrograde when he needs them to be direct, so Chuck is going to try to do something about it. Starting tonight I am going to be doing an experiment to see if I can completely cut myself off from all planetary influence. Now I have no idea what this is going to do, so if you should hear that I have disappeared in big puff of blue smoke, don't be surprised, but my patience with the solar system is ended. There are several ways of going about this, and since I don't want to have nine radionic boxes balancing planetary rates forever, I'm going to start with a powerful thoughtform and see what that does. If I survive, I'll let you all know what happens. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:15:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS/ES/Masonic Org etc. - Ernest Wood Message-ID: <970517191236_169848846@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-17 18:34:12 EDT, you write: > It only seems logical that the Adepts will make use of >any one who can help them no matter where they are and what their >affiliation in the physical world are. Actually, the real question is how do we make use of them? They must have some psychological buttons that can be pushed. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:44:31 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: dratted listserv Message-ID: I'm going to resend my posts since none have popped back to me. My apologies if you already received them. Chuck, stop with that psionic helmet! Grumble, grumble... Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:45:06 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS/ES/Masonic Org etc. - Ernest Wood Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517234506.006f949c@mail.eden.com> At 07:16 PM 5/17/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-17 18:34:12 EDT, you write: > >> It only seems logical that the Adepts will make use of >>any one who can help them no matter where they are and what their >>affiliation in the physical world are. > >Actually, the real question is how do we make use of them? They must have >some psychological buttons that can be pushed. > >Chuck the Heretic > Good question, chuck. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:46:20 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Hello again! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970517234620.006fdbe0@mail.eden.com> At 03:17 PM 5/17/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > Again I received a msg with header only.....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:10:13 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Hello again! Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm back. A different name and a different >sex ...but hey, what the hell. The signature's the same right?:) > >I look forward to seeing how the conversations have evolved since my >departure. I haven't recieved anything yet... > >--- >The Triaist > Welcome back! How about changing "The Triaist" and completing the job? :-). It would be much nicer to write to Jaqtarin or Samantha. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:39:47 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Hello again! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970517173947.006fe998@90.0.0.1> At 07:47 PM 5/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 03:17 PM 5/17/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> >Again I received a msg with header only.....doss > The problem is likely on John Mead's side. When the disk that the mailing lists are processed on gets full, the message texts can get truncated and only the headers come through. (He explained this once, a long time ago.) -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:03:40 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: TS/ES/Masonic Org etc. - Ernest Wood Message-ID: In message <970517191236_169848846@emout06.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-05-17 18:34:12 EDT, you write: > >> It only seems logical that the Adepts will make use of >>any one who can help them no matter where they are and what their >>affiliation in the physical world are. > >Actually, the real question is how do we make use of them? They must have >some psychological buttons that can be pushed. > >Chuck the Heretic How about, "Adept? ADEPT? Call yourself an ADEPT? HUH!" Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:02:10 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Retrograde Chuck Message-ID: In message <970517190837_-1902025411@emout07.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >If I survive, I'll let you all know what happens. I expect you'll be reincarnated inside out. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:30:38 +0000 From: Thoa Tran Subject: Drat! Drat! Message-ID: <337E075E.6BD6@withoutwalls.com> All my posts popped back empty!!!! Arghhhh!!! I'll repost them later when Chuck's asleep.:o) Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:16:06 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Ernest Wood's book on 7 Rays Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970518031606.00687900@mail.eden.com> Hello everybody: Ernest Wood's book on 7 Rays was the only Theosophical Publication on the subject. The background to the writing of the book is found in his famous and very rare book "Is This Theosophy ....?" I am excerpting it below. There are certain points that need to be mentioned. Firstly, it is generally accepted in Theosophical circles that after HPB, CWL was "the" communication channel from the Adept Teachers. Wood's experience is one more indication is that They do directly deal with other individuals for their work. So when dealing with any information that is useful, let us keep in mind that if it does not have the seal authenticity from Theosophical Administration or leaders, it does not mean that the information is not authentic. We should keep an open mind and not behave like sheep in accepting anything and everything just because some information is coming from a particular source or is supported by the Administration or leaders. Your mileage and direction may vary. ..doss ====================================================================== A curious thing happened a few days after we had started work. I was sitting near his bed one afternoon when I suddenly felt something break open (like the bursting of a seed pod) in my head, and from it a cold current flooded my whole body, passing down the spine in waves and radiating from every part of the body. It seemed to me that this was not my own force, but was coming into me through my head, and that it was going out from me direct to Bishop Leadbeater. I was also aware that it was a healing current of some kind. After several minutes it died away, and I never mentioned it to Bishop Leadbeater, nor to others, except in a letter to Mrs. Besant. I do not know anything more about this phenomenon, which occurred quite outside my will. But it did coincide with an abrupt change in Bishop Leadbeater's condition. In a few days he was able to move about, and then it was only a matter of weeks until he had straightened himself up, and even his hands assumed their normal form. When we were about half-way through the preparation of The Masters and the Path Bishop Leadbeater one day showed me a document which he said had been given to him by a Master at Adyar many years before. It was simply a table of the rays or types of humanity. He thought it might be incorporated into the book, but there were some points he could not understand, he indicated three items in particular. I looked at the diagram, and at once exclaimed: " But I can explain these items." I gave him my explanations of the points in question. He was much astonished and asked me where I got this knowledge of a rather obscure subject. I told him that before leaving India I had been now and then receiving what seemed to me like internal communications on this subject of the rays or types of men. Sometimes there had been a voice, but generally ideas had been, as it were, insinuated into my mind, quite distinctly with the feeling of the presence of an intelligence other than my own. In this way I had accumulated a quantity of notes on the subject. I had been speaking on it occasionally at theosophical gatherings in America, without saying anything about occult experiences in connection with it, if such they could be called. It happened in Chicago that some of the members particularly one, Dr. Beckwith, a leader there, had taken my information very seriously, and I was consequently much troubled, as I had no wish to lead others where I was myself somewhat blind. Late one night, as I was travelling along in an otherwise empty carriage on the elevated railway in Chicago, and I was brooding in a troubled way over this point, something electrical in my immediate atmosphere caused me to look up and I saw, or thought I saw, the Master standing there; and he said: " Do not be troubled about that information about the rays. It is quite correct. I gave it to you." When I had recounted this to Bishop Leadbeater, he said: "Well, we will not do any more of my work until you have written a book of your own on the seven rays." He put his work aside. I set to work on my own book. Early every morning I made notes for the day's dictation. During the day I dictated. In eight days my book was ready for the press. I gave the manuscript to Bishop Leadbeater with the request to point out any errors or defects, but after a few days he returned it to me saying: " I should not like to interfere with anything coming from that source." The book was duly published, and created quite a sensation among the Theosophists, who translated it into several languages, but no mention was made of the history I have recounted above. Afterwards, whenever I raised my voice against " authority " in the theosophical movement, Bishop Leadbeater would say to me: " But we regard you as our authority on the rays ! " I could not, however, agree with him. Such experiences as I had had might very well be the work of the subconscious mind. My abnormal experiences in Sydney were not all connected with psychism. One morning I opened the newspaper, and this is what confronted me in massive type on the front page: PROFESSOR WOOD'S TRAGIC END BELOVED UNIVERSITY MAN FOUND HANGED My photograph appeared under this, and then two columns of letterpress: " Professor Wood was found hanged in his room.... " There was a Professor Wood in the Sydney University and he had hanged himself the result of a distressing illness. Only the photograph was wrong, but letters of condolence poured into the office of the Broadcasting Station for which I was then speaking every week. Some of the writers must afterwards have been surprised on hearing my voice from the tomb or rather the morgue as it were, if they had not heard the explanation of the mistake. ====================== end ====================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:22:20 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Hello again! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970518032220.0070c17c@mail.eden.com> Hello, by retrieving the digest, usually we can see the full msg. ..doss At 08:39 PM 5/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 07:47 PM 5/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >>At 03:17 PM 5/17/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >>> >>> >>Again I received a msg with header only.....doss >> > >The problem is likely on John Mead's side. When the >disk that the mailing lists are processed on gets full, >the message texts can get truncated and only the headers >come through. (He explained this once, a long time ago.) > >-- Eldon > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:26:09 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Headers Message-ID: Well, now. I see that the absence of flesh to headers is still a hinderance. Ah, well. I also recieved a bunch of them. I appreciate the "Hello Again" and Welcome Back Headers, however. It's good to hear from all of you again. I was having theos-l withdrawals. Anyhow, there is some pretty interesting stuff going on. I'll see if I have a nickel or two to put in... btw Alan, I'll work on getting that signature changed. How 'bout..."The Carrot"? *laugh* --- The symbol formerly known as the triaist...hehe, for now. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:47:22 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Flesh and Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: I recently read a book titled "A History of God". It was by ...someone. Karen Armstrong, I think. Anyhow, she provided quite a wonderful description of how "God" has evolved. How the original idea of God gained different aspects, some conflicting some not. I believe she says something regarding Communion. (She was once a nun, but converted to Islam later in life). Obviously, today it is treated as a kind of "sympathetic magic" whereas the wine symbolises the blood, which, as Titus explained, symbolises the higher spirit of Christ. The wafer, in turn, symbolises the flesh, which symbolises the lower spiritual aspect, i.e. the lower manas. "Sympathetically" by absorbing the wafer, we absorb Christs flesh, meaning we take in the knowledge that Christ had regarding the rise to and connection with his higher self. By drinking the wine, we "sympathetically" absorb Christ's blood, thereby making the example of the connection of the "blood" to the "flesh" to become a pure being. I don't know if I read this from Karen's book or not, but I do remember reading it somewhere. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:13:27 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Impersonality; Karma Message-ID: Has anyone really come to an agreement on what karma really was? How it worked through us and around us. I'll bring back into light my former ideas, which are still my current ones, particularly after the observations I have made. My thought were that Karma was more or less a pool of positives and negatives. The more positives there are in the pool, the more positive the karma; universally. The more negatives...self explanatory. Also, and this was an idea brought to me from someone on this list, I believe. Each person has an "attractor" which can be negative or positive, and this attractor attracts like. The more negative a person does or feels, the more negative s/he attracts and likewise with the positive. On a group level ...from the moment you begin interaction with someone, you begin observing them. From those observations come speculations which occupy our thoughts. If the person you are talking to, and even trying to help, has negative thoughts, those thoughts are going to be in your mind, whether you agree with them or not. This does not mean that you will attract the other person's negative karma with the same force, but you will probably pick up on some of it. However, once you stop pondering the negative, which would mean impersonality, the attraction to the negative karma would float away, leaving you less likely to have negative things happen to you. Part of being "theosophical" is being personal. Our main objective, really, is to help the people around us. Being personal could be looked upon as a sacrifice. We temporarily sacrifice our own "good" karma, in order to release the negative aspects from others. Once we have helped those whom we have become personal with, our karma returns to what it was before, for we no longer think of the problems once the problems are solved. I will use Christ as an example of my hypothesi, as I have done in the past. Christ was a wonderful person. His acts were good. His intentions were good. And if not for the multitudes of people he wished to help, his thoughts would have been very positive. As it was, almost everyone he came across had problems. He thought about those problems, fixed them, and waited two or three seconds for the new one to arise. He was full of thoughts on the negative, and therefore, he attracted really awful karma. He was hated, ridiculed. On top of that, I'm willing to bet that he stubbed his toe a lot. Or his wallet disappeared (just an example, I doubt he had a wallet). Or a passing bird would decide that his shoulder was a good place to mark for defication.(sp?) The crazy things that happen to us when we have "bad" karma, probably happened to him too. Ultimately, he was killed by those he loved. So my theory is that karma is not based solely on one's own ideas and perogatives, or their acts, but on the collective whole. Even the most impersonal, positive person, I believe, can stub their toe. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:51:45 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: World Wide Mind - The limitations of cyber-brotherhood Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970517215145.007054c8@90.0.0.1> Keith: >The Internet seemed at first to offer so much opportunity to for a nucleus of >universal brotherhood to further the theosophical objectives. We have news >groups, web pages and chat rooms galore. The options are staggering. It does provide a "place" for the free exchange of ideas, an exchange that crosses political and cultural boundaries. There's no censorship based on "community standards". I can see new ideas and philosophies evolving, amidst huge volumes of inane, objectionable, and inaccurate opinion, theory, and rumor. The state of information on the Internet today is comparable to the state of medicine in "Wild West" days when people would come through town selling miracle snake oil from their wagons. >Yet there is definitely no danger of the Internet instilling a cult like >mentality. I'm not sure I'd agree. It may be possible for people to put on an appearance on the Internet -- a false appearance -- and gain a following. There's a better chance of getting to know someone in person. On the other hand, of course, there's also a better chance of a cult recruiting someone in person. There's a good book on cults: COMBATTING CULT MIND CONTROL by Steven Hassen, which I'd recommend to everyone. It's important to be aware of the psychology of mind control and tell when someone's trying to recruit one. (I got my copy of the book from AMAZON.COM in just a few days.) >The personality, the lower vehicles don't have the impact in the >current cyber-space that they would have in groups such as Heaven's gate, David >Koresh, or the charismatic appeal of teachers like Blavatsky and Krishnamurti. True, it's hard to be recruited over the Internet. But having charisma can also be a sign of a good leader. It's not charisma nor the quality of the ideas that are being taught that makes something a cult, it's the practice of thought control, manipulation, and the subverting of the follower's ability to make independent decisions. >It seems that at our level of evolution, we need face to face relationships >for really effective transformation. Teaching and discussion are not enough. We need to put a lot of things into the soup. A guru or spiritual peer can be helpful. Also helpful are other people needing our help. We need to put our energies into serving others, into creative expressions that brighten the world, as well as getting moral support, inspiration, and guidance from others with more experience. >The ancients knew this and that is why the real teachings were transmitted >orally from Master to chela and not trusted to the eyes of the profane. Or the oral tradition was necessary because the deeper Teachings are passed on as a form of "living realizations", and cannot be contained in simply an intellectual tradition. >Blavatsky felt it necessary through the guidance of her Masters to break some >of the silence and publish the confused and confusing document known as the >SECRET DOCTRINE. She was sent, I understand, to help stem the tide of western materialism. Some of what she writes requires a background of study to appreciate. She was more direct in books like THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY. She was at a disadvantage, not having an established terminology to use. There was only so far that she was allowed and able to write -- after that point it's up to the individual student's intuition to keep going. The writing style may appear confusing, because it's done in a manner that does not tidily wrap up all the loose ends and make a complete picture, like a jigsaw puzzle with all the pieces put together. That would appeal solely to the intellect and leave the intuition cold. The writing in more in a style that leads to a constant churning over of ideas and a continually reexamination of what the student thinks. That's precisely the effect that a spiritual teacher intends to cause in a student. A close study of Theosophy leads, I think, to the exercise and development of *something more* than the intellect. >The point is that we are always in the midst of evolution and my personality >and social institutions and groups are far from perfection, but in a process. Or the traditional Buddhist idea that there is impermanence in everything, that everything is in a state of flux. Even so, as we participate in the game, we can brighten and enrich things, or add to the pain, misery and garbage that the world also has in abundance. >I think Mozart like Blavatsky and Shakespeare are the real guiders of humanity >who point to an age of altruism and peace that we see, but through a glass >darkly. What they have in common is the high volume of creative output. This is also something we can do. We can "shine brightly" rather than hide under rocks cursing the dark, bitter, ugly world. The world only *seems* dark until we start *giving* it our share of light. >I think many are working, some guided , some blindly, but all toward the path >that winds ever upwards despite many setbacks. True, but it's much better if we open our eyes and participate in the plan consciously. HPB once said "nature unaided fails". We have an important role in nature, in life, in the way that the world goes. The important thing is in awakening an "inner fire" or spiritual dynamic, in setting our feet firmly on the Bodhisattva Path. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:19:50 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Dependence/Secrecy Message-ID: Thank you for the wonderful excerpt, Doss. I don't find much material where I am. With regards to dependence, and using the allegory, it seems that one has to play the monkey before one becomes the kitten. You have to search for and realize the mother before the mother can carry you. Wood seemed to touch on the concerns about secrecy as well. His dislike of the E.S. was partly due to the fact that he hated wondering if one person knew more than the other and they were not willing or "able" to share it. All of us dislike secrets even though we understand the "human" need for them. When most people discover something, they want to be recognized for it. They don't want someone else to get the credit for their understanding. Also, people keep secrets simply because they don't want anyone to know that THEY know, for fear of rejection, and/or reverance. I personally LOVE(sarcasm) the veil people throw on secrets which would help a person "evolve". It goes something like this: "Well, I can't tell you, 'cause it might hurt you." The truth is, they won't tell you because they don't trust you. I like it when people are honest about it. When they tell me straight out that they don't trust me with the information, I can at least know the more important truth, (their distrust), and I can find out why they don't trust me. Usually, secrets come about due to misconceptions of people. I am somewhat divided on my opinion regarding secrets. Particularly when it involves "the masses". The E.S. is most likely concerned about the widespread knowledge of spirituality. The knowledge can be and is abused. If I knew something that could save mankind or destroy it, I would probably be very picky about who I gave the information to. However, Those Who Know do not need to be or act superior to Those Who Don't Know. I think that Wood probably disliked the arrogance more than the secrecy. I know very little about the structure and the people of the E.S. or the Co-Masonry (if that is the correct title). Therefore, I cannot pass personal judgement upon them. There reasons for secrecy seem to be well established, however, if they are as arrogant as others say they are, then I have to shake my finger at them. The rise of the Co-Masonry seemed to be very conniving as well, with respect to Wood's description of it. There was a lot of "behind the scenes" BS going on. I cannot agree with that kind of action. If they were thinking about setting it up, they should have told people they were going to do it. Instead, they told people they "might" do it while in the process of preparing the way for doing it. They hurt a lot of people in the process. Also, they lost one of the most important aspects of a society... trust among members. It is sad indeed. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:50:36 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: World Wide Mind Message-ID: The internet indeed has had quite in impact on the flow of information. Both right and wrong. The trick is to find which is which. I think the book you mentioned, Eldon, is definitely worth going through. As the years go by, we are provided with things that seem important in the "information age". The Internet, faxes, phones, etc, ...things which get the information across the world easily. One problem with this which was well pointed out, is that we lose the personal contact which greatly enhances the experience. Nowadays, we feel that getting the information is enough. It is a lot easier to be "book smart" than to have experience. We definitely have lost the initiative to go out and find what we want to understand. The books seem to provide everything simply because we don't really know anymore what "everything" is. Another problem on the internet, due mostly the differences in language and culture, is the misunderstanding of concepts. Something as simple as sarcasm will often not be recognized unless clearly stated. I just love sarcasm. (sarcasm). A lot is lost because we can't see facial expressions or hear tones. Not everyone knows how to express their thoughts in writing as well as Blavatsky, or in music as well as Mozart. Even they can be confusing at times. The internet, however, is already annihilating these problems. A person can already see the person they are talking to on the net, so long as they have the appropriate software and the hardware to handle it. It won't take long before the internet will be identical to meeting someone on the street. And if virtual reality ever makes it to the net, (after some serious restructuring), you WILL be meeting someone on the street. Once these kinds of enhancements take place, the problems of cults and misinformation will only get worse, (or perhaps better, since one will be able to see the "leader".) However, experience will be reinstituted in virtual form, (perhaps not psychically though), and correct information will be much easier to distinguish from the bs. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 04:19:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Thoalight@aol.com Subject: how, why, older generation Message-ID: <970518041921_54689478@emout05.mail.aol.com> Hi Liesel, This is going to be my fourth time trying to send this friggin' thing. I would have given up on it except that I wouldn't want you to think I'm avoiding your questions. I'm going to send my e-mails one at a time and see whether it would go through that way. Goddess knows my blabbing is capable of clogging up a system. Take care, Liesel ************************** Liesel: >2. if the younger generation is more attracted to experience, the older >generation, believes in hands on learning, if they got any sense. Theory >without practice is like 19th century gynecology - they learned how to >deliver babies in medical school from textbooks with charts. > >3. what suggestions do you have for activties, Thoa? I know workshops. Would >you have people get up and say "I have this & this problem" and then >everyone in the group gets together and tries to suggest different ways to >change their Karma? What other ways do you know? Hi Liesel, To get some answers, let's look at some observations, besides what I stated about the younger generation: TEACHING OBSERVATIONS: In my experience with 5-8 years old, the children require strong guidance, simplicity, and freedom of expression (Basically, someone strictly telling them to adhere to doing certain things, and yet within that confine, with very little expectation of the result). Materials taught should be in a simple, experiential manner, e.g. lots of colors, shapes, using simple motor skills. The teacher should also act in a parental manner. With young college age students (around 18 years old), a very relaxed friendly setting is required. The students abhor authoritarian figures. However, strong rules have to be laid out with clear consequences stated, or else the students will lose interest, skip classes, etc. At that age, who wants to be in a classroom? Materials taught should be challenging with the teacher expecting certain results, and should be full of experiences beyond the classroom. The expectations should be clear as far as certain aesthetic quality (as in art), and yet very open to allow for unique visions. The teacher, in critiquing, basically, has to do mental gymnastics, seeing results in different point of views. That is, in critiquing, the teacher should note the effort put in, the critical thinking, and the creative effort. Basic environment is challenging and yet flexible. With older folks who are pretty much set in their ways, the teaching is more geared toward what they are used to, and yet somehow diplomatically try to make them add different perspectives to their repertoire. They are usually more self-driven about what they need to do, do it with great effort, and yet those qualities are also responsible for them to be less receptive about trying different things. It's hard to try to get them to paint abstract art when they're used to flowers, and vice versa. In this case, the teacher should not shock the student too much by trying to change the student, but rather just find strengths in what the student already knows. OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THESOPHIST EXPECTATIONS: I don't know much about politics, etc., but here are some things I've noted. The basic goals are search for truth, siblinghood and service to humanity. One of the intention was to replace what was lacking in religions, perhaps correcting reliance on superstition, emotionalism, and factionalism. There is a lot of factionalism among theosophists. Theosophists are superstitious and emotional despite themselves. Helena Blavatsky was quite superstitious herself and obviously emotional (why would she swear so much?). This conflict between what is ideal and what is natural have made the T.S. create its own archetype. By not compromising with the natural, conflicts arose, membership dwindled, and factionalism resulted. Instead of finding strength in its archetype, apply acceptance and forgiveness, the T.S. have chosen to shut out those members. Vice versa for the rejected members in which T.S. rules have become the archetype. OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE INTERNET: The internet is great for bringing in those who may not converse with theosophists any other way. There are several groups who would be interested: people who heavily rely on the computer for occupation, information, and communication; retired people; and young people who have always known the computer. Because of the internet, people are more likely to do a web search on theosophy due to their encounter with it through readings, friends, etc. The internet fails when it comes to human contact, experiences, and guidance. The virtual is not as powerful as the actual. On the other hand, sometimes actual contact may not be that great. Someone may have a hard time listening to what you have to say because of your nervous tics. :o) Again, the internet is often the first time someone has an experience with REAL theosophists. There are certain expectations after reading those wonderful books, and these expectations may either be let down or met through the internet. Since postings are information sources, there is a conflict between giving out information, and giving out wrong impressions. For example, it may be good for newbees to learn about all the grievances among theosophists, but it may also turn off newbees to theosophy. ...with those observations.... SOME IDEAS: Some activities could be workshops and more permanent classes. The permanent classes can be classical and new theosophical studies, martial arts which also focuses on mind/body/spirituality discipline, visual/spiritual arts, written arts (writing as opposed to just reading), psychology/karma (what drives one to commit certain acts/karmic results/analysis of solutions), and whatever else anybody can think of. The workshops could be weekend intense experiences, such as journey into nature (including rituals from tribal cultures with history of intense nature experiences), dancing/drumming, meditation, psionic bombing effects :o), etc. The two cores would be meetings to discuss general topics and concerns (a way for theosophists to get and give feedbacks to each other, this is critical), and volunteerism (preferably in an organized and group manner so that there would be more group dynamics). Thus, we can have classes as ongoing lessons, workshops as lightning bolts of experiences, and cores as a way of unification and direction toward the main purpose, which is to do good. Also, there should be a way for members to air grievances with a commitment to solution, forgiveness, and unification. For example, if one member is griping behind another's back to others, that member should be confronted in a group so that the griping would be out in the open and solved, keeping in mind that there will be forgiveness and no stigma attached. HOW DO THESE THINGS START?: Feedback, feedback! If everyone takes responsibility for giving feedback, things could develop toward more than just talking. With only a couple people giving feedback here and there in a long while, pretty soon the energy will peter out. As I said and as Liesel said, I can always go somewhere else that suits me. Feedback turning into clear plans, plans turn into concrete projects, projects start small and grow bigger. We all have our personal responsibility and jobs. If everyone chips in a little here and there, something could happen. The problem with the internet community is that everyone is dispersed internationally, and it is all virtual. The momentum may be great on the internet, but at the local level, the theosophist may find the task daunting. People start workshops all the time. Theosophists living in the same area can band together to form workshops as a beginning. Workshops can later turn into classes, etc. Help, financial or otherwise, can be requested through the internet. Of course, theosophists are no fools, thus requests from a long time internet contributor would probably be more effective, and plenty of clear information should be provided. And a million and one more ways that I can't think of right now. Whatever it is, the main thing is group contribution. If everybody cares, things will come to fruition. If few cares, nothing will come to fruition. SOME HEALING SUGGESTIONS: Prominent theosophists should be more willing to mingle with the rest of the chaps, be willing to listen to ideas, and give strong feedback. Whatever's instituted, one of the goals should be a reunification of all theosophists. Steps should be clearly taken toward that. How can theosophists expect war to stop in the world if they can't forgive, forget, and compromise among themselves. Don't think in terms of "I'm going to go out and form my own group that will meet my goals." or "Let those dissenting theosophists go where they may.", instead, constantly think in terms of all your sibling theosophists, wherever they are. I appreciate the fact that Einar is doing that. Reset those electrical circuits! All theosophists should go through a mandatory comedy course. ...anyhow, blah, blah, blah, I'm out of steam. Any ideas? Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:57:43 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Reunification||Re: how, why... Message-ID: Thoa, you are very right in that we need to reunify the theosophists of the world, but you are also right in that we are all very far apart. Here I am, way up in Alaska, thinking ....wow, that would be great! Then I remember that I'm way up here in Alaska. Then I frown. I think my problem is that I like to see results fast. I know that in time, your idea of reunification would become a possibility provided that everyone pitched in. I'm out of school and out of the teen-years, however, I think I still fit your profile of an 18 year old student. I want it now. Impossible? Yup. I talk to people here about theosophy almost on a daily basis. Many people scoff. What can I tell them? I just shrug my shoulders and move on to a different subject, (often being very sneaky and trying to get them to agree with theosophic principles before they even know that they are agreeing with them) :P. There are a lot of "new agers" up here, and many people have an open mind. But when it comes to putting a name to their beliefs, such as "theosophy", they turn away. It's kind of funny, really. I'm not really a theosophist myself, but I am. I think that is because a theosophist is not really a theosophist. hmmm...I"m not making sense...all theosophists can be theosophical, but not all people who are theosophical call themselves theosophists. That might be better. I think that when you put a name to something such as this, it becomes a sect...at least, that is what people think. Christians generally don't want to be called "theosophical" Christians. I am not Christian either, in the generally accepted term. ... I suppose what I am trying to say is that it is difficult to have a workshop or a class on something that people are more or less afraid of. You can tell them we're not a sect, or a cult, or a religion, but they won't believe you, 'cause you have a "name". I can get people to listen to me just as long as I don't say, "In theosophical terms...", or "Theosophists tend to believe....". If there were theosophists here, I would do everything I could to get them together. Of course, I haven't really tried very hard in looking for them either. Perhaps I'll put an ad in the paper...*shrug* Oh, I brought up new-agers and I had a point to that... Very few who study and practice in a new age "format" know that theosophy sparked the very beginnings, and practically founded, the new age movement. When you tell them this, they look at you like you have spinach in your teeth. However, in light of your post, I will try a little harder to find some fellow theosophists in my area. Can you be a theosophist without being a theosophist? --signed, confused. (how do I do that to myself?) --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:13:40 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: secrecy Message-ID: <199705181531.LAA22650@ultra1.dreamscape.com> I agree fully with what you guys said about dirty missions. There is no excuse for those, and if that's why there's secrecy, I'm against it. However, I know that sometimes the government needs to keep something secret to protect us, but really to protect us. Just for instance, during WWII our soldiers weren't allowed to tell us at home where they were. If that weren't secret, an enemy could figutre out from a number of letters where our troop movements were, and that would have made D-Day, for instance, more difficult and would have cost more casualties. If today we were to plan to dispose Sadam Hussein, it would have to be done with secrecy if it were ever to succeed, because if we did it out in the open, he'd sneak away for sure. So sometimes secrecy is justified, but not to kill and torture innocent people. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:20:03 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Thought for Food Message-ID: <33893a2a.10367045@mail.earthlink.net> Information involved in Unfolding Inner Consciousness and all of its related areas should indeed be put in more understandable terms than they are generally put. In fact, one of our main tasks is to put forth such information in terms excluding the mystical references and more technical terms for the lay reader, but sometimes that is not totally possible. Anyone who has read and understood the original writings (which are generally from a wide variety of perspectives from various schools of thought) should endeavor to present the information in understandable terms for those who are trying understand the same information (which is what the "The Bridge Builder" poem was saying). Not very many do this, which is sad to me. HOWEVER, a True Seeker will do what needs to be done in order to be able to understand needed information regardless of the task. There is no price too high to pay for Awareness and Understanding. If it means studying Buddhism to understand the Buddhist information, then do it. What ever it takes to be able to understand. We should not expect that because we can not understand something that the writer should rewrite it to accommodate our laziness. How would you get Plato or Moses or the Bible authors to rewrite the material ? IT IS UP TO THE SEEKER. We save ourselves, remember. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:26:55 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Honesty Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970518182655.006ade58@mail.eden.com> Krishnaji wrote a series of letters primarily for the children in his schools dealing with some of the simple and yet very fundamental issues of life. One such dealt with the issue of conflict, honesty and insight. I felt that his analysis of the issues especially of honesty and insight is very precise and clear. In these days when honor and honesty does not mean much to many, I think it may be helpful to some of us to examine the issue of our own honesty. The clever and concrete mind, I have seen very often, tries to use its sharpness and worldly knowledge not to be really honest but justifies many of the things we do as being honest. A no holds barred ruthless analysis of ourselves may be very revealing and in some cases may even be shocking. Your mileage and direction may vary. ...doss ========================================== Any form of conflict, struggle, corrupts the mind - the mind being the wholeness of all our existence. This quality is destroyed when there is any kind of friction, any kind of contradiction. As most of us live in a perpetual state of contradiction and conflict, this lack of completeness makes for degeneration. We are concerned here to discover for ourselves whether it is at all possible to bring an end to these degenerating factors. Perhaps most of us have never thought about this; we have accepted it as a normal way of life. We have convinced ourselves that conflict brings growth - as competition - and we have various explanations for this: the tree struggles in the forest for light, the baby just born struggles for breath, the mother labours to deliver. We are conditioned to accept this and to live in this manner. This has been the way of our life for generations and any suggestion that perhaps there might be a way of life without conflict seems quite incredible. You may listen to this as some idealistic nonsense or reject it out of hand, but you never consider whether there is any significance in the statement that it is possible to live a life without a shadow of conflict. When we are concerned with the integrity and responsibility of bringing about a new generation, which as educators is the only function we have, can you investigate this fact? And in the very process of educating can you convey to the student what you are discovering for yourself? Conflict in any form is an indication of resistance. In a fast- flowing river there is no resistance; it flows around big boulders, through villages and towns. Man controls it for his own purpose. Freedom after all implies, does it not, the absence of the resistance that thought has built around itself? Honesty is a very complex affair. What are you honest about and for what reason? Can you be honest with yourself and so be fair to another? When one says to oneself that one must be honest, is that possible? Is honesty a matter of ideals? Can an idealist ever be honest? He is living in a future carved out of the past; he is caught between that which has been and that which ought to be and so he can never be honest. Can you be honest with yourself? Is that possible? You are the centre of various activities, sometimes contradictory; of various thoughts, feelings and desires which are always in opposition to each other. Which is the honest desire or thought and which is not? These are not mere rhetorical questions or clever arguments. It is very important to find out what it means to be totally honest because we are going to deal with insight and the immediacy of action. It is utterly important, if we would grasp the depth of insight, to have this quality of complete integrity, that integrity which is the honesty of the whole. One may be honest about an ideal, a principle or an ingrained belief Surely this is not honesty. Honesty can only be when there is no conflict of duality, when the opposite does not exist. There is darkness and light, night and day; there is man, woman, the tall, the short and so on, but it is thought that makes them opposites, puts them in contradiction. We are expressing the psychological contradiction that mankind has cultivated. Love is not the opposite of hate or jealousy. If it were, it would not be love. Humility is not the opposite of vanity or pride and arrogance. If it were, it would still be part of arrogance and pride and so not humility. Humility is totally divorced from all this. A mind that is humble is unaware of its humility. So honesty is not the opposite of dishonesty. One can be sincere in one's belief or in one's concept but that sincerity breeds conflict and where there is conflict there can be no honesty. So we are asking can you be honest to yourself? Yourself is a mixture of many movements crossing each other, dominating each other and rarely flowing together. When all these movements flow together then there is honesty. Again there is the separation between the conscious and unconscious, god and the devil; thought has brought about this division and the conflict that exists between these divisions. Goodness has no opposite. With this new understanding of what honesty is, can we proceed with the investigation of what is insight? This is utterly important because this may be the factor that may revolutionise our action and may bring about a transformation in the brain itself We have said that our way of life has become mechanistic: the past with all the accumulated experience and knowledge, which is the source of thought, is directing, shaping all action. The past and the future are interrelated and inseparable and the very process of thinking is based upon this. Thought is ever-limited, finite; though it may pretend to reach heaven, that very heaven is within the frame of thought. Memory is measurable, as time is. This movement of thought can never be fresh, new, original. So action based on thought must ever be broken up, incomplete, contradictory. This whole movement of thought must be deeply understood with its relative place in the necessities of life, things that must be remembered. Then what is action which is not the continuance of remembrance? It is insight. Insight is not the careful deduction of thought, the analytical process of thought or the time-binding nature of memory. It is perception without the perceiver; it is instantaneous. From this insight action takes place. From this insight the explanation of any problem is accurate, final and true. There are no regrets, no reactions. It is absolute. There can be no insight without the quality of love. Insight is not an intellectual affair to be argued and patented. This love is the highest form of sensitivity - when all the senses are flowering together. Without this sensitivity - not to be caught in one's desires, problems and all the pettiness of one's own life - insight is obviously quite impossible. Insight is holistic. Holistic implies the whole, the whole of the mind. The mind is all the experience of humanity, the vast accumulated knowledge with its technical skills, with its sorrows, anxiety, pain, grief and loneliness. But insight is beyond all this. Freedom from sorrow, from grief, from loneliness, is essential for insight to be. Insight is not a continuous movement. It cannot be captured by thought. Insight is supreme intelligence and this intelligence employs thought as a tool. Insight is intelligence with its beauty and love. They are really inseparable: they are actually one. This is the whole which is the most sacred. ================ end ============== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:42:34 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: World Wide Mind - The limitations of cyber-brotherhood Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970518194234.0072e7f0@mail.eden.com> At 12:51 AM 5/18/97 -0400, Eldon B. Tucker wrote: > >True, it's hard to be recruited over the Internet. I am not really sure. I suspect that there are a lot individuals who may be susceptible to Internet just like others who are susceptible to personal recruitment. Though not a proper analogy, I had known of a case of a young lady who ran into a guy across the country on an Internet chat and she left her husband and now planning to move into the state where this guy now lives. So anything is likely. ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:42:35 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: World Wide Mind - The limitations of cyber-brotherhood Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970518194235.00670558@mail.eden.com> At 12:51 AM 5/18/97 -0400, Eldon B. Tucker wrote: >cause in a student. A close study of Theosophy leads, I think, to the exercise >and development of *something more* than the intellect. > I agree. I suspect that in many cases there is a fundamental change in the attitude and the ethics of the individual however imperceptible in the beginning. Once this change starts, it seems that over a period of time, it is highly likely that a turnaround takes place. YMDMV .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:42:37 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Dependence/Secrecy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970518194237.006ad6dc@mail.eden.com> At 01:17 AM 5/18/97 -0400, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: >Thank you for the wonderful excerpt, Doss. I don't find much material >where I am. The material I posted is from a very rare book by Wood which I accidentally discovered. Very few have ever seen this book even in Theosophical Circles. > >With regards to dependence, and using the allegory, it seems that one has >to play the monkey before one becomes the kitten. You have to search for >and realize the mother before the mother can carry you. Wood seemed to >touch on the concerns about secrecy as well. His dislike of the E.S. was >partly due to the fact that he hated wondering if one person knew more >than the other and they were not willing or "able" to share it. All of us >dislike secrets even though we understand the "human" need for them. When >most people discover something, they want to be recognized for it. They >don't want someone else to get the credit for their understanding. Also, >people keep secrets simply because they don't want anyone to know that >THEY know, for fear of rejection, and/or reverance. I personally >LOVE(sarcasm) the veil people throw on secrets which would help a person >"evolve". It goes something like this: "Well, I can't tell you, 'cause it >might hurt you." The truth is, they won't tell you because they don't >trust you. I like it when people are honest about it. When they tell me >straight out that they don't trust me with the information, I can at least >know the more important truth, (their distrust), and I can find out why >they don't trust me. Usually, secrets come about due to misconceptions of >people. I am somewhat divided on my opinion regarding secrets. >Particularly when it involves "the masses". The E.S. is most likely >concerned about the widespread knowledge of spirituality. The knowledge >can be and is abused. If I knew something that could save mankind or >destroy it, I would probably be very picky about who I gave the >information to. I would like to add that soon after Krishnaji dissolved the Order of the Star of the East and gave his very famous "Truth is a Pathless Land" speech, Annie Besant had the courage to shut down the E.S. world wide. No one of a lesser stature would have been able to do it and yet command the support all Theosophists. In about a year, according to Wood, many of her close friends beseeched to re-open because they found the members could not self-control themselves and needed the oversight and control and she relented and reopened. I will try to post the exact description of Wood of this incident. > >However, Those Who Know do not need to be or act superior to Those Who >Don't Know. I think that Wood probably disliked the arrogance more than >the secrecy. I know very little about the structure and the people of the >E.S. or the Co-Masonry (if that is the correct title). Therefore, I >cannot pass personal judgement upon them. There reasons for secrecy seem >to be well established, however, if they are as arrogant as others say >they are, then I have to shake my finger at them. > >The rise of the Co-Masonry seemed to be very conniving as well, with >respect to Wood's description of it. There was a lot of "behind the >scenes" BS going on. I cannot agree with that kind of action. If they >were thinking about setting it up, they should have told people they were >going to do it. Instead, they told people they "might" do it while in the >process of preparing the way for doing it. They hurt a lot of people in >the process. Also, they lost one of the most important aspects of a >society... trust among members. It is sad indeed. We get into the fundamental question of interlocking membership and leadership of Co-Masonry, LCC with that of the TS. Annie Besant was well aware and sensitive to administratively mixing TS and Masonic. So in Adyar which has nearly 300 acres of land, much of it undeveloped, she made it a point of building a separate building outside the Adyar campus. Also while the Masonic meetings do take place during the time of the International Convention, it is never listed in the official program of the TS Convention. But a couple of years ago, in the American Section Annual Convention, the masonic program was explicitly listed and also the specific type of meeting was also listed. In addition, when this was going on there was a litigation going on the Federal District court in Denver between the membership who wanted (and felt it appropriate for whatever reason) to be dictated by the Paris based Frenchmen and women and the membership who asserted their independence from Paris and wanted not to be dictated by any foreign outfit and TS members were on both sides. In such a situation, when one faction was holding the program during Annual Convention, it was seen as the TS leadership pushing the Paris faction due to many of the top TS leaders solidly behind the Paris faction. Such instances do not help TS (at least in the physical plane) but is divisive and cannot but hurt the TS. While any member of TS can be a member of any other organization as it is a private matter, when the leadership gets involved it is a different matter. For example when George Arundale was elected as the International President, he stopped calling himself as Bishop Arundale. I think he also resigned his Bishopship. YMDMV ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:42:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: World Wide Mind Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970518194239.006b1004@mail.eden.com> At 01:48 AM 5/18/97 -0400, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: >The internet indeed has had quite in impact on the flow of information. >Both right and wrong. The trick is to find which is which. I think the >book you mentioned, Eldon, is definitely worth going through. > >As the years go by, we are provided with things that seem important in the >"information age". The Internet, faxes, phones, etc, ...things which get >the information across the world easily. One problem with this which was >well pointed out, is that we lose the personal contact which greatly >enhances the experience. Nowadays, we feel that getting the information >is enough. It is a lot easier to be "book smart" than to have experience. >We definitely have lost the initiative to go out and find what we want to >understand. The books seem to provide everything simply because we don't >really know anymore what "everything" is. > >Another problem on the internet, due mostly the differences in language >and culture, is the misunderstanding of concepts. Something as simple as >sarcasm will often not be recognized unless clearly stated. I just love >sarcasm. (sarcasm). A lot is lost because we can't see facial expressions >or hear tones. Not everyone knows how to express their thoughts in >writing as well as Blavatsky, or in music as well as Mozart. Even they >can be confusing at times. > >The internet, however, is already annihilating these problems. A person >can already see the person they are talking to on the net, so long as they >have the appropriate software and the hardware to handle it. It won't >take long before the internet will be identical to meeting someone on the >street. And if virtual reality ever makes it to the net, (after some >serious restructuring), you WILL be meeting someone on the street. > >Once these kinds of enhancements take place, the problems of cults and >misinformation will only get worse, (or perhaps better, since one will be >able to see the "leader".) However, experience will be reinstituted in >virtual form, (perhaps not psychically though), and correct information >will be much easier to distinguish from the bs. > >--- >Jaqi. > Your points are well taken. Let me add my 2 cents worth. I see Internet as just a tool like auto, airplane, telephone, fax, TV etc. In any tool, there are always pluses and minuses. So long as the pluses predominate the minuses then we have a tool which can be very helpful to many. One of the problems I see from the view point of organizations, is that in the past, they controlled the flow of information to its followers thru personal gatherings, publications etc. Now that structure is threatened. Information communication is instantaneous now and is very inexpensive. >From what I have seen, many non commercial organizations have been very slow in effectively using the new tool of communication. For example, recently I inquired our TSA Board of Directors (individual Directors) as to if any of them have e-mail address. One responded saying no and rest have not responded. It looks like they still do not understand or appreciate the usefulness of e-mail as a tool of communication. Of course with the quick communication tool, you lose the slack that is available in the snail mail, which is sometimes an advantage when you want to drag your feet. It may be recalled that we had discussions on having some truly young blood to be infused in the leadership. It is my guess that in the next 20 years, when the present young generation comes into leadership position, each one is likely to be very computer literate and have e-mail and would be communicating with others using e-mail. YMDMV .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:42:32 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: secrecy Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970518194232.0072cb58@mail.eden.com> At 11:30 AM 5/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >I agree fully with what you guys said about dirty missions. There is no >excuse for those, and if that's why there's secrecy, I'm against it. >However, I know that sometimes the government needs to keep something secret >to protect us, but really to protect us. Just for instance, during WWII our >soldiers weren't allowed to tell us at home where they were. If that weren't >secret, an enemy could figutre out from a number of letters where our troop >movements were, and that would have made D-Day, for instance, more difficult >and would have cost more casualties. If today we were to plan to dispose >Sadam Hussein, it would have to be done with secrecy if it were ever to >succeed, because if we did it out in the open, he'd sneak away for sure. So >sometimes secrecy is justified, but not to kill and torture innocent people. > >Liesel I think we need to bring back our focus to the question of running of civilian organizations. It would be very hard for these to justify secrecy. Whom are they protection against whom? Mostly the decision makers who like secrecy are self-deluded into thinking that they are protection an ideal, a person, an act, or an organization. The problem with secrecy is that in todays world of instant communication, bits and pieces of information start leaking out until the information becomes a torrent. It may take time, but ultimately much comes out. During this course, the bits and pieces make the organizations and their leaders look bad and at times dumb and stupid. Once this kind of opinion or conclusion is built in the minds of men and women, it cuts into the trust in the words and deeds of the leadership and the organization. Once the trust is lost, it is lost for ever and can never ever be regained. It affects both the individuals concerned and the organization for a long time. YMDMV - Your mileage and direction may vary. ....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:58:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: <970518155841_-1331620360@emout12.mail.aol.com> The only advantage to honesty is that is far less work. But dishonesty has far too many practical rewards to set aside merely because it conflicts with an abstract principle. One should be willing to use all the tools one has available in the art of living. Given the choice, I would rather use the truth because it doesn't require as much maneuvering, but I have no problem with lying and cheating if they serve my purposes. Maybe I should run for the TS board after all. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:06:31 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Reunification||Re: how, why... Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >Can you be a theosophist without being a theosophist? > > --signed, confused. (how do I do that to myself?) > >--- >Jaqi. Join Theosophy International. Welcome Jaqi! :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:09:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Flesh and Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >I recently read a book titled "A History of God". It was by ...someone. >Karen Armstrong, I think. Anyhow, she provided quite a wonderful >description of how "God" has evolved. How the original idea of God gained >different aspects, some conflicting some not. I believe she says >something regarding Communion. (She was once a nun, but converted to >Islam later in life) Can you give further info on this conversion? She seems an unlikely candidate for Islam - or maybe it was another Karen Armstrong? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:02:14 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Drat! Drat! Message-ID: In message <337E075E.6BD6@withoutwalls.com>, Thoa Tran writes >All my posts popped back empty!!!! Arghhhh!!! I'll repost them later >when Chuck's asleep.:o) > >Thoa Chuck never sleeps. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:16:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: how, why, older generation Message-ID: In message <970518041921_54689478@emout05.mail.aol.com>, Thoalight@aol.com writes >All theosophists should go through a mandatory comedy course. > >...anyhow, blah, blah, blah, I'm out of steam. Any ideas? When do you want to start one? Can we have electronic custard pies? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:19:13 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970518201913.0068ba58@mail.eden.com> At 04:00 PM 5/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >The only advantage to honesty is that is far less work. But dishonesty has >far too many practical rewards to set aside merely because it conflicts with >an abstract principle. One of my favourite friends who was very honest man (a native Texan) and may have been seen by his friends as being irreligious, used to tell me that when you lie, you need to keep track what lie you have told whom and when. This is very taxing when you have told a lot of lies to a lot of people over time. When you are truthful, it is very easy. You don't even have to remember. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:23:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Thoalight@aol.com Subject: Impersonality Message-ID: <970518212352_-1265048600@emout07.mail.aol.com> Howdy folks, Okay, I'm going to try resending the umpteenth time my last few stuff I wrote yesterday. (Rolling up sleeves, poised to push buttons...putting on psionic effects defuser helmet...) *************** I generally agree with what you said, Titus, even if you are a clumsy white man.:o) I, too, have noticed the problems of getting too personal. The problem with getting too personal is that if problems arose, an intense feeling of betrayal will arise. If the group leader is personal with a member, the leader will more likely try to control the member through the emotions involved in friendship, that is, the leader will feel a need to get personally involved by giving advice, help, etc. The member will feel an emotional bond and dependence on the leader/friend. Leader and friend have combined to form a warped older sibling/parental and younger sibling/child relationship. When the "child" have grown independent, there is usually a feeling of betrayal from the leader ("I have done everything for you!"), and a feeling of betrayal from the member ("You have manipulated and controlled me all this time!"). I also notice that in a group professing siblinghood, there is often great confusion between impersonal siblinghood and personal siblinghood. Some confusion resulted in affairs. Some resulted in false closeness. Time was not factored into friendship and closeness. Some group members think they can just look into your eyes, see an old soul, perhaps see a connection in the past life, and instantly bond with you. I've noticed a lot of people constantly hug and profess love for each other, but would never visit or do things with those same people outside of the group meeting, as people would in a normal friendship. For myself, I prefer the normal stuff. If someone wants to be my friend, they're going to have to go through the same developing friendship stuff as the rest of the world. Does that person care about you? Does that person want to do things with you? Does that person remember your birthday? As far as all those hugs and love, I'm sorry, but I usually reserve those for people I know and love, who were around for me. I don't think the answer is to stay impersonal always, with the exception of group leaders. Group leaders should stay impersonal with the group, stay concerned and involved with ideas, but definitely emotionally impersonal. The rest of the members should get real in their relationships, that is, stay very grounded when it concerns developing a friendship. Regarding Judas: What Buddha said about desire being the source of suffering is oh, so true. Based on personal experience and observation of others, desire can drive a normally sane person to commit irrational acts. For example, a person wanting a certain material thing will spend more than s/he can afford, ditto for revenge, love affairs, power, job position, helping humanity, etc. That is what causes conflict among people, along with other suffering. When I was a youth, I find my mind often obsessing about a want and rationalizing everything toward getting that want. As a woman, I've learned (not perfectly) to let go of a want when the tide is against toward getting it. That is, I will not force it to the point that it will cause suffering. When the wanting is too I generally agree with what you said, Titus, even if you are a clumsy white man.:o) I, too, have noticed the problems of getting too personal. The problem with getting too personal is that if problems arose, an intense feeling of betrayal will arise. If the group leader is personal with a member, the leader will more likely try to control the member through the emotions involved in friendship, that is, the leader will feel a need From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:02:14 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Drat! Drat! Message-ID: In message <337E075E.6BD6@withoutwalls.com>, Thoa Tran writes >All my posts popped back empty!!!! Arghhhh!!! I'll repost them later >when Chuck's asleep.:o) > >Thoa Chuck never sleeps. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:16:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: how, why, older generation Message-ID: In message <970518041921_54689478@emout05.mail.aol.com>, Thoalight@aol.com writes >All theosophists should go through a mandatory comedy course. > >...anyhow, blah, blah, blah, I'm out of steam. Any ideas? When do you want to start one? Can we have electronic custard pies? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:19:13 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970518201913.0068ba58@mail.eden.com> At 04:00 PM 5/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >The only advantage to honesty is that is far less work. But dishonesty has >far too many practical rewards to set aside merely because it conflicts with >an abstract principle. One of my favourite friends who was very honest man (a native Texan) and may have been seen by his friends as being irreligious, used to tell me that when you lie, you need to keep track what lie you have told whom and when. This is very taxing when you have told a lot of lies to a lot of people over time. When you are truthful, it is very easy. You don't even have to remember. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:23:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Thoalight@aol.com Subject: Impersonality Message-ID: <970518212352_-1265048600@emout07.mail.aol.com> Howdy folks, Okay, I'm going to try resending the umpteenth time my last few stuff I wrote yesterday. (Rolling up sleeves, poised to push buttons...putting on psionic effects defuser helmet...) *************** I generally agree with what you said, Titus, even if you are a clumsy white man.:o) I, too, have noticed the problems of getting too personal. The problem with getting too personal is that if problems arose, an intense feeling of betrayal will arise. If the group leader is personal with a member, the leader will more likely try to control the member through the emotions involved in friendship, that is, the leader will feel a need to get personally involved by giving advice, help, etc. The member will feel an emotional bond and dependence on the leader/friend. Leader and friend have combined to form a warped older sibling/parental and younger sibling/child relationship. When the "child" have grown independent, there is usually a feeling of betrayal from the leader ("I have done everything for you!"), and a feeling of betrayal from the member ("You have manipulated and controlled me all this time!"). I also notice that in a group professing siblinghood, there is often great confusion between impersonal siblinghood and personal siblinghood. Some confusion resulted in affairs. Some resulted in false closeness. Time was not factored into friendship and closeness. Some group members think they can just look into your eyes, see an old soul, perhaps see a connection in the past life, and instantly bond with you. I've noticed a lot of people constantly hug and profess love for each other, but would never visit or do things with those same people outside of the group meeting, as people would in a normal friendship. For myself, I prefer the normal stuff. If someone wants to be my friend, they're going to have to go through the same developing friendship stuff as the rest of the world. Does that person care about you? Does that person want to do things with you? Does that person remember your birthday? As far as all those hugs and love, I'm sorry, but I usually reserve those for people I know and love, who were around for me. I don't think the answer is to stay impersonal always, with the exception of group leaders. Group leaders should stay impersonal with the group, stay concerned and involved with ideas, but definitely emotionally impersonal. The rest of the members should get real in their relationships, that is, stay very grounded when it concerns developing a friendship. Regarding Judas: What Buddha said about desire being the source of suffering is oh, so true. Based on personal experience and observation of others, desire can drive a normally sane person to commit irrational acts. For example, a person wanting a certain material thing will spend more than s/he can afford, ditto for revenge, love affairs, power, job position, helping humanity, etc. That is what causes conflict among people, along with other suffering. When I was a youth, I find my mind often obsessing about a want and rationalizing everything toward getting that want. As a woman, I've learned (not perfectly) to let go of a want when the tide is against toward getting it. That is, I will not force it to the point that it will cause suffering. When the wanting is too I generally agree with what you said, Titus, even if you are a clumsy white man.:o) I, too, have noticed the problems of getting too personal. The problem with getting too personal is that if problems arose, an intense feeling of betrayal will arise. If the group leader is personal with a member, the leader will more likely try to control the member through the emotions involved in friendship, that is, the leader will feel a need to get personally involved by giving advice, help, etc. The member will feel an emotional bond and dependence on the leader/friend. Leader and friend have combined to form a warped older sibling/parental and younger sibling/child relationship. When the "child" have grown independent, there is usually a feeling of betrayal from the leader ("I have done everything for you!"), and a feeling of betrayal from the member ("You have manipulated and controlled me all this time!"). I also notice that in a group professing siblinghood, there is often great confusion between impersonal siblinghood and personal siblinghood. Some confusion resulted in affairs. Some resulted in false closeness. Time was not factored into friendship and closeness. Some group members think they can just look into your eyes, see an old soul, perhaps see a connection in the past life, and instantly bond with you. I've noticed a lot of people constantly hug and profess love for each other, but would never visit or do things with those same people outside of the group meeting, as people would in a normal friendship. For myself, I prefer the normal stuff. If someone wants to be my friend, they're going to have to go through the same developing friendship stuff as the rest of the world. Does that person care about you? Does that person want to do things with you? Does that person remember your birthday? As far as all those hugs and love, I'm sorry, but I usually reserve those for people I know and love, who were around for me. I don't think the answer is to stay impersonal always, with the exception of group leaders. Group leaders should stay impersonal with the group, stay concerned and involved with ideas, but definitely emotionally impersonal. The rest of the members should get real in their relationships, that is, stay very grounded when it concerns developing a friendship. Regarding Judas: What Buddha said about desire being the source of suffering is oh, so true. Based on personal experience and observation of others, desire can drive a normally sane person to commit irrational acts. For example, a person wanting a certain material thing will spend more than s/he can afford, ditto for revenge, love affairs, power, job position, helping humanity, etc. That is what causes conflict among people, along with other suffering. When I was a youth, I find my mind often obsessing about a want and rationalizing everything toward getting that want. As a woman, I've learned (not perfectly) to let go of a want when the tide is against toward getting it. That is, I will not force it to the point that it will cause suffering. Others should try this. When the wanting is too intense, and I'm sure one knows when one want something badly, just take a deep breath and say, "C'est la vie!" Thoa, rambling back. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:30:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Thoalight@aol.com Subject: Welcome back! Message-ID: <970518213049_-1834123026@emout01.mail.aol.com> Now that I'm resending this again, again, again, I'd like to add another thing. Welcome, also, Jaqi! At first I thought Triaist man signed himself as Jaqi in response to Alan's request. After reading Jaqi's posts, I realize that the tone was different. Jaqi, Triaist man once made a statement regarding that he might be fooling us and that he was actually a woman. Oh, well, he still might be. ************************ Triaist man(?): >Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm back. A different name and a different >sex ...but hey, what the hell. The signature's the same right?:) > >I look forward to seeing how the conversations have evolved since my >departure. I haven't recieved anything yet... > >--- >The Triaist Welcome back! It does take a while for a sex change to take effect. It's great to have another woman join the list.:o) It's good to see that the eloquent Keith is back, too. Now, if Ann will come back, we will have the same crew as when I first started. Kym needs to write in more with her precisely deadly pen, too. No battle of the sexes since you left. No fruitism, either. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 23:02:54 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Changing Blavatsky's Words Message-ID: <337FC2DE.1C86@sprynet.com> Eldon B. Tucker wrote: > changes. The best example of too much editing was what Annie Besant > did to her three-volume edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, which is now > out of print. It was replaced by Boris de Zirkoff's edition, which I'd > tend to consider a good example of editing. Isn't TPH bringing back the 3 volume edition (with explanation about Besant's editing)? > > B) Words change meaning over time; I have heard that John Algeo is at > >work at a new Theosophical Glossary. > > In reprinting books we can add editorial comments and footnotes > offering explanations, or judiciously replace an obsolete word or two. > When I computerized ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, for instance, I replaced > "milliard" with "billion". I have found Blavatsky's THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY invaluable in understanding her other works. I have also read quite a bit of late 19th century literature and esoterica, and am therefore more familiar with the language of the time than most. As time goes on, however, there will be more need of commentary. > They -- the Mahatmas -- were relating what they knew to the science of their > day. Some of the comparisons or discussions would prove wrong when the > science they were talking about is itself proven wrong. The error may have > been in making an analogy to something that was untrue and then extrapolating > based upon that analogy. Exactly. However, it was not always the science of the day that was wrong. If, for example, someone tells you that there is something called a molecule which is the center of an atom and contains positive and negative charges, you might reply that a molecule contains positive and neutral charges. Now, you don't know that it is a nucleus that is being misdescribed to you, but someone reading your reply, "a molecule is made of positive and neutral charges" would question your knowledge of science. > >Similarly, Blavatsky's comments on > >hypnotism are clearly based on an improper definition of hypnotism > >(especially as evidenced in the Theosophical Glossary). > > The discussion about hypnotism can get lengthy. My general comment regarding > it would be to classify it among techniques of manipulation and thought > control, techniques that could be used for the good or to harm others. > I'd agree that what HPB says of hypnotism and what we understand by that term > nowadays is different. If one is familiar with the history of hypnotism, a simple reading of the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY shows that HPB's ideas of hypnotism comes from third-hand accounts, which were in error, even from the knowledge of the time. Interestingly enough, however, she shows mesmerism being postively used in her NIGHTMARE TALES, which were written about the same time as the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 00:53:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: <970519005347_1921972290@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-18 23:32:33 EDT, you write: > When you are truthful, it is very easy. You don't even have to remember. That is the one real advantage truth has, and being as lazy as I am, I tend to be honest when I can be. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 00:12:56 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970519051256.006f2d1c@mail.eden.com> At 12:55 AM 5/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-18 23:32:33 EDT, you write: > >> When you are truthful, it is very easy. You don't even have to remember. > >That is the one real advantage truth has, and being as lazy as I am, I tend >to be honest when I can be. > >Chuck the Heretic > Most of us are too.. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:06:23 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: Krishnaji's speech was definitely an eye opener. I have read about the things he had spoken of in many different writings, however, his use of examples, as always, has made everything much clearer. Honesty, as he describes it, is not a trait of which I possess. There are too many contradictions in my life. As far as insight is concerned, I have never had anything close to a "thoughtless" act which did not turn out to be a big mistake. Everything I do is thought out first. I remember my parents saying, "Think twice before you..." and it makes me wonder, 'Were they wrong?' Not really. It appears that insight is not just action without thought. But thoughtless action without regard to the future of that action. For example, Krishna's advice to Arjuna in the Gita during his moral dilemma was much the same. It was his duty. Think nothing of it. Do it, and go on. However, this was insight as the first step to acquiring it, I think. Krishnaji seemed to say this in his speech. You have to rid yourself of the contradictions before insight may come into being. I don't know if I can rid myself of these contradictions. I have to be able to say, "I did this because...". If I don't, I feel guilty about being irresponsible and I fear that others will think of me as being so. It seems to me that the only way to rid oneself of contradiction is to stop caring. The Catch-22 is that caring is a part of being sensitive, and Krishnaji states that sensitivity is a requirement for the acquisition of insight... Another contradiction exists already. Can one be sensitive toward others and not care at the same time? Perhaps this has a little to do with the impersonal/personal argument. Can one be impersonally sensitive? If not, then what? If I have to stop caring in order to help, then I probably will never get anywhere with my own evolution. However, I want to help everything "ascend". How can I do that without understanding what evolution is all about? I believe this is that line where "book smart" and "experience" meet. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:10:32 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Dependence/Secrecy Message-ID: I would be very interested in Wood's description of the TS closure. I'm sure it would be very helpful in my understanding of TS "politics" as well as providing more to think about on people's need for dependence. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:17:11 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Reunification||Re: how, why... Message-ID: But then I would become a theosophist, not a theosophist who is not a theosophist. I wouldn't want that...:) --- Jaqi. On Sun, 18 May 1997, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: I wrote: > >Can you be a theosophist without being a theosophist? > > > > --signed, confused. (how do I do that to myself?) > > > >--- > >Jaqi. > > Join Theosophy International. > > Welcome Jaqi! :-) > --------- > THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:29:38 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Flesh and Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message aska.edu>, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele > writes > >I recently read a book titled "A History of God". It was by ...someone. > >Karen Armstrong, I think. Anyhow, she provided quite a wonderful > >description of how "God" has evolved. How the original idea of God gained > >different aspects, some conflicting some not. I believe she says > >something regarding Communion. (She was once a nun, but converted to > >Islam later in life) > > Can you give further info on this conversion? She seems an unlikely > candidate for Islam - or maybe it was another Karen Armstrong? > > Alan > --------- Hmmm... she is the only Karen Armstrong I have ever come across... do you know of another? Perhaps we are speaking of the same person and she has written more books. How are you referring to her? With regards to the conversion, I remember her saying that the idea of God didn't seem quite right. That there were too many contradictions in what she was being taught and she didn't feel comfortable with the patriarchy. She left the convent to try and understand why the teachings were so confusing. This resulted in laborious study of different religions. Their history, practices, etc. I suppose that ultimately she found that Islam came closest to what she perceived as being true. So the transition was not immediate. She did not decide suddenly that she wanted to be a Muslim. It was after a lot of research and study. The book which I mentioned is remarkable! She didn't miss a beat regarding the specifics of how God came about and how "it" developed into what "he" is today. She Greek Philosophy and Judaism, and how they influenced each other. One thing that stuck in my head was how she pointed out that the Babylonian? god, El Shaddai, was Abraham's "One" god, and that later, when Moses, (I think), was speaking with God, he was told that God was Abraham's God(El Shaddai). I had known that Jehovah must have "evolved" from the early, polytheistic gods, but I never knew that "proof" was written right in the Bible. It gave me something to throw around. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:27:24 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Thought for Food Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970518112724.006c105c@90.0.0.1> E.J.: >There is no price too high to pay for Awareness and Understanding. If >it means studying Buddhism to understand the Buddhist information, >then do it. ... We should not expect that because we can not understand >something that the writer should rewrite it to accommodate our laziness. >How would you get Plato or Moses or the Bible authors to rewrite the >material? IT IS UP TO THE SEEKER. We save ourselves, remember. When *we* are writing, we do have to deal with the backgrounds of the "target audience" for our writings. Someone may find us using a term they deem sexist and get so angry that they completely miss what we were saying. If we choose different words, they'd not have the reaction and there might be communication. The same might be true if we said something about someone's favorite politics, their favorite theosophical authors, or their religious icons. Blasting the Bible might not be a good approach to talk of the esoteric philosophy with a Born-Again Fundamentalist Christian. Defenses would go up, listening would stop, and offense, anger, and rage would be evoked. This is the opposite of the desired effect. That's speaking of *us*, though, as living writers. Dead authors don't change their words and have to be respected for the different cultural context in which they lived. If someone were unable to read Mark Twain because he used "the 'N' word", they have problems of their own that they will have to deal with in due time. If someone were to unintentionally say something that angers me, it's not their fault that I got mad. The anger is my reaction, my responsibility, and I can't simply tell the person "What you said makes me mad; it's your fault that I'm mad; stop being bad and shut up!" We all have cultural baggage and conditioning. It's important to lighten up, keep it from controlling our lives, and to learn to see things from different perspectives. We can't (or perhaps I'd say shouldn't) try to change Blavatsky's words. But we can write about Theosophy with our own slants, writing in a way that appeals to a particular "market segment" of spiritual questers. I agree with what you say about our spiritual needs overcoming any barriers in our way, including those of awkward language. I'd see the hunger as part of a series of stages in approaching the Path. First is a "divine discontent", an uneasieness about life, that works its way up in intensity to being like the desire for air of someone whose head is held under water. The second stage is like a "fire" is lit within. There's a spiritual dynamic now at work in our lives and no matter what society, tribe, policical party, or religious group we belong to -- we're basically "saved". That is, the inner process that will one day lead to our perfection has been started and there is no turning back. The third stage would be where our experiences become something too much to keep to ourselves. They sour for the lack of sharing. Now we go from having found an inner light to becoming a *source* of light. We find that *seekingness* has been replaced with *expressiveness*. Now our joy of discovery has been replaced with a joy of giving tangible expression in the world of unseen wisdom and beauty. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:32:54 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Thought for Food Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970518183254.006fce18@mail.eden.com> At 01:26 PM 5/18/97 -0400, you wrote: > Information involved in Unfolding Inner Consciousness and all of its >related areas should indeed be put in more understandable terms than they are >generally put. In fact, one of our main tasks is to put forth such information >in terms excluding the mystical references and more technical terms for the lay >reader, but sometimes that is not totally possible. Anyone who has read and >understood the original writings (which are generally from a wide variety of >perspectives from various schools of thought) should endeavor to present the >information in understandable terms for those who are trying understand the same Since words we use cannot adequately describe the real thing, any kind of explanation can only be partial and incomplete, any one trying to communicate anything should make this issue very clear. Otherwise we will get caught in the words and do not go beyond it. Also there is the possibility of going off in the wrong direction. My 2 cents worth. YMDMV - Your mileage and direction may vary. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:15:14 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Changing Blavatsky's Words Message-ID: <337F7F72.649E@sprynet.com> Eldon B. Tucker wrote: > We can't (or perhaps I'd say shouldn't) try to change Blavatsky's > words. But we can write about Theosophy with our own slants, > writing in a way that appeals to a particular "market segment" of > spiritual questers. A) Blavatsky's editors had no problem changing her words. B) Words change meaning over time; I have heard that John Algeo is at work at a new Theosophical Glossary. C) There are a number of cases where it is clear that Blavatsky and the Mahatmas were writing based on incorrect information given to them. The statement about potential energy in the Mahatma Letters (sorry, I forget which one; look it up in the index) makes it abundantly clear that potential energy was improperly defined to them, and they are talking about a different concept entirely. Simlarly, Blavatsky's comments on hypnotism are clearly based on an improper definition of hypnotism (especially as evidenced in the Theosophical Glossary). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:20:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Changing Blavatsky's Words Message-ID: <970518192029_-431828463@emout14.mail.aol.com> Even so, to change the words of an author is to do violence to that author. It would be far better to issue totally new works on the subject by different writers and publish Blavatsky's works with lots of footnotes pointing out the changes in the last 100+ years. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:44:32 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Changing Blavatsky's Words Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970518164432.006cb198@90.0.0.1> Bart: >> We can't (or perhaps I'd say shouldn't) try to change Blavatsky's >> words. But we can write about Theosophy with our own slants, >> writing in a way that appeals to a particular "market segment" of >> spiritual questers. > A) Blavatsky's editors had no problem changing her words. True. And they may have made "corrections" without really understanding what they read. But when an author is alive the author at least has a chance to review and approve or disapprove the corrections. A dead author can't do so, so editors should take care if they try to make changes. The best example of too much editing was what Annie Besant did to her three-volume edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, which is now out of print. It was replaced by Boris de Zirkoff's edition, which I'd tend to consider a good example of editing. > B) Words change meaning over time; I have heard that John Algeo is at >work at a new Theosophical Glossary. In reprinting books we can add editorial comments and footnotes offering explanations, or judiciously replace an obsolete word or two. When I computerized ESOTERIC BUDDHISM, for instance, I replaced "milliard" with "billion". I'd agree that new works should use an evolving language and terminology, and revised glossaries are certainly something important. > C) There are a number of cases where it is clear that Blavatsky and the >Mahatmas were writing based on incorrect information given to them. The >statement about potential energy in the Mahatma Letters (sorry, I forget >which one; look it up in the index) makes it abundantly clear that >potential energy was improperly defined to them, and they are talking >about a different concept entirely. They -- the Mahatmas -- were relating what they knew to the science of their day. Some of the comparisons or discussions would prove wrong when the science they were talking about is itself proven wrong. The error may have been in making an analogy to something that was untrue and then extrapolating based upon that analogy. >Similarly, Blavatsky's comments on >hypnotism are clearly based on an improper definition of hypnotism >(especially as evidenced in the Theosophical Glossary). The discussion about hypnotism can get lengthy. My general comment regarding it would be to classify it among techniques of manipulation and thought control, techniques that could be used for the good or to harm others. I'd agree that what HPB says of hypnotism and what we understand by that term nowadays is different. Another example where Blavatsky may have gotten things wrong would be in her overly-harsh assessment of certain schools of Tantric Buddhism, confusing the Tibetan and Indian versions. I'd generally feel that the deep, esoteric writings should be left untouched since the editor needs to be clear about what is being edited. The introductory and some intermediate works we can and should understand. Based upon that understanding, we can write new, original, fresh presentations of the timeless philosophy. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:19:21 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Changing Blavatsky's Words Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970518201921.0068ba58@mail.eden.com> At 06:15 PM 5/18/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >Eldon B. Tucker wrote: > >> We can't (or perhaps I'd say shouldn't) try to change Blavatsky's >> words. But we can write about Theosophy with our own slants, >> writing in a way that appeals to a particular "market segment" of >> spiritual questers. > I tend to agree with Eldon's view on this. > A) Blavatsky's editors had no problem changing her words. If Blavatsky's editors were allowed to change her words when she was alive it is ok because if she thought any change is unacceptable to her she would have refused to the change. Who else was in a better position to know what was written than the author. > B) Words change meaning over time; I have heard that John Algeo is at >work at a new Theosophical Glossary. > > C) There are a number of cases where it is clear that Blavatsky and the >Mahatmas were writing based on incorrect information given to them. The >statement about potential energy in the Mahatma Letters (sorry, I forget >which one; look it up in the index) makes it abundantly clear that >potential energy was improperly defined to them, and they are talking >about a different concept entirely. Simlarly, Blavatsky's comments on >hypnotism are clearly based on an improper definition of hypnotism >(especially as evidenced in the Theosophical Glossary). > It may be better to leave the texts alone. Let the present scholars write books under their own name and get them published. In today's Internet world, anyone can publish on Internet. All you do is to type it in a word processor and upload it to some server or even serialize on theos-l for free and no strings attached. .....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:19:26 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Changing Blavatsky's Words Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970518201926.0068ba58@mail.eden.com> At 07:21 PM 5/18/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >Even so, to change the words of an author is to do violence to that author. > It would be far better to issue totally new works on the subject by >different writers and publish Blavatsky's works with lots of footnotes >pointing out the changes in the last 100+ years. > >Chuck the Heretic > Chuck: You as an author perhaps know first hand how the authors feel when others tamper the works in the name of improvement. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:26:51 GMT From: dewberry@poboxes.com (Bee Brown) Subject: Re: Camels and Needles Message-ID: <33806453.130818686@mail> On Fri, 9 May 1997 07:30:41 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >Check our new domain names! >http://www.netforward.com >v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v > > >>>>"And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go >>>> through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter >>>> into the kingdom of God." >> >>Alan responded: >> >>>Scholarly bit: (clip) > > >The version I was taught: the "Eye of the Needle" was a colloquial >expression, referring to the short archway door in the outer wall of the >Temple. The purpose of such a short entryway is that it forced every man to >stoop over, or bow, before entering the holy place as a reminder of the >proper place of man before his God. According to this version, it would >have been *just possible* for a camel to enter through that arch, but it >would have been on its knees. > >So the point of the parable becomes, it IS possible for a rich man to join >the brethren of the Kingdom of God, but the process isn't an easy one and it >likely doesn't happen very often. :) > >Jim There is another story I have heard. Back in those days there were lots of baddies so all cities had walls round them with a small door that was usable by any citizen caught outside the walls after the main gates were locked. To get themselves and their camels in they had to unload them and then reload them on the other side. This seemed symbolic for unloading our unspiritual, material things before gaining entry to the safety of the spiritual planes or what ever one may call heaven. If one comes to the point where one can unload all responsibility for 'things' and 'objects' one can pass through the eye of the needle otherwise thought of as the antakarana. Bee > > Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. Life is not a problem to be solved; it is a mystery to be lived. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:43:48 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Welcome back! Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997 Thoalight@aol.com wrote: > Now that I'm resending this again, again, again, I'd like to add another > thing. Welcome, also, Jaqi! At first I thought Triaist man signed himself > as Jaqi in response to Alan's request. After reading Jaqi's posts, I realize > that the tone was different. Jaqi, Triaist man once made a statement > regarding that he might be fooling us and that he was actually a woman. Oh, > well, he still might be. Jaqi = Triaist man. > Triaist man(?): > >Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm back. A different name and a different > >sex ...but hey, what the hell. The signature's the same right?:) > > > >I look forward to seeing how the conversations have evolved since my > >departure. I haven't recieved anything yet... > > > >--- > >The Triaist > > Welcome back! It does take a while for a sex change to take effect. It's > great to have another woman join the list.:o) It's good to see that the > eloquent Keith is back, too. Now, if Ann will come back, we will have the > same crew as when I first started. Kym needs to write in more with her > precisely deadly pen, too. No battle of the sexes since you left. No > fruitism, either. > > Thoa No battle of the sexes??!!! Well, now. Something has to be done about that...:) (jk) I will say that I am not the same person that I was five months ago, but it is not because I had a sex change... at least not physically.:) It's quite possible, however I am not really sure, that I'm at a mental halfway point between becoming a man, or perhaps a woman....who knows?*smile* I kinda like it. There probably won't be anymore "sex dilemmas(sp?)" instigated by me anymore...however, I'm not promising anything...:) Oh yes. And the signatue was changed due to Alan's request. I figured I should do that for him after all of the bashing I did before.*giggle* Hmmm... but I'm not promising that THAT will stop either...*evil grin* Mischeivous as always... Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:13:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970519121317.0071b668@mail.eden.com> At 05:04 AM 5/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >Krishnaji's speech was definitely an eye opener. I have read about the >things he had spoken of in many different writings, however, his use of >examples, as always, has made everything much clearer. > >Honesty, as he describes it, is not a trait of which I possess. There are >too many contradictions in my life. As far as insight is concerned, I >have never had anything close to a "thoughtless" act which did not turn >out to be a big mistake. Everything I do is thought out first. I >remember my parents saying, "Think twice before you..." and it makes me >wonder, 'Were they wrong?' Not really. > >It appears that insight is not just action without thought. But >thoughtless action without regard to the future of that action. For >example, Krishna's advice to Arjuna in the Gita during his moral dilemma >was much the same. It was his duty. Think nothing of it. Do it, and go >on. However, this was insight as the first step to acquiring it, I think. >Krishnaji seemed to say this in his speech. You have to rid yourself of >the contradictions before insight may come into being. > >I don't know if I can rid myself of these contradictions. I have to be >able to say, "I did this because...". If I don't, I feel guilty about >being irresponsible and I fear that others will think of me as being so. > >It seems to me that the only way to rid oneself of contradiction is to >stop caring. The Catch-22 is that caring is a part of being sensitive, >and Krishnaji states that sensitivity is a requirement for the acquisition >of insight... Another contradiction exists already. > >Can one be sensitive toward others and not care at the same time? Perhaps >this has a little to do with the impersonal/personal argument. Can one be >impersonally sensitive? If not, then what? > >If I have to stop caring in order to help, then I probably will never get >anywhere with my own evolution. However, I want to help everything >"ascend". How can I do that without understanding what evolution is all >about? I believe this is that line where "book smart" and "experience" >meet. > >--- >Jaqi. Hello, Jaqi: What I found in many of Krishnaji's material is that on many things he has been able to describe concepts very precisely. In my own experience, I could see many instances when I read or saw some facts, instantly I have acted, without thinking through and going over the facts many times. It may have taken time to understand the facts or see the facts but once it was done, the course of action decided was immediate. Everytime this has happened, I found the action was very decisive and correct and most efficient and productive of good results. One of the reasons that I picked on this particular quote of Krishnaji was that there was another instance where honesty was a critical issue. Wood in his book mentions of an incident. As he himself had mentioned, he was in touch with and was helped by a Master -- and once he was pointedly asked if he was utterly honest. I feel that when we want to simplify our lives and at the same times become efficient in our actions (and perhaps minimize the bad Karma we create due to our foolish and ignorant ways) and make our lives joyful, utter honesty seems to be a critical ingredient. I also recall seeing a round table of psychiatrists on TV discussing the widespread problems in the society, and one of them mentioning that much of our interpersonal problems in life can be traced to lack of honesty. So I think it is a worthwhile "experiment" to try being utterly honest for a couple of months and see how life becomes. May be there will be a great surprise and joy and may be honesty will become addictive. My 2 cents worth. May be others can contribute their thoughts on the issue. ....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:33:31 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Dependence/Secrecy Message-ID: <338072CB.51F1@eden.com> Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: > > I would be very interested in Wood's description of the TS closure. I'm > sure it would be very helpful in my understanding of TS "politics" as well > as providing more to think about on people's need for dependence. > > --- > Jaqi. I will post the excerpt later today. Wood was in Adyar when this took place and he knew all the players personally including Krishnaji. So it would be the most objective first hand account I have ever seen. I am sure there is a lot of information on this in the Theosophist magazine at that time. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:14:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: <970519141454_-1197066023@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-19 03:17:45 EDT, you write: > Most of us are too.. ...doss > > I know, that's what makes us theosophists so annoying to each other. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 97 14:42:47 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1029 Message-ID: <199705191842.OAA12173@leo.vsla.edu> Doss, The passage on insight is one of the most appealing I've read of Krishnamurti's works. I don't often enjoy "scriptures" people post here, but I'll read anything of this quality from K. you can find. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:46:59 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Flesh and Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: <199705191846.MAA08718@mailmx.micron.net> Jaqi. wrote: >With regards to the conversion, I remember her saying that the idea of God >didn't seem quite right. That there were too many contradictions in what >she was being taught and she didn't feel comfortable with the patriarchy. >. . .I suppose that ultimately she found that Islam came closest to what she >perceived as being true. So the transition was not immediate. She did not decide >suddenly that she wanted to be a Muslim. It was after a lot of research and study. Ok, let's see. . .she found Christianity too patriarchal. . .so she converted to Islam. Hmmmm. . . Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 97 15:08:26 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Invisible Hierarchies Message-ID: <199705191908.PAA14517@leo.vsla.edu> This is inspired by Thoa's discussion of personality connection in spiritual organizations. I recently visited Pasadena after a hiatus of six years, and have been having lots of personal contact with ARE people. Within the Adyar TS have also seen most people I know in the Baltimore/Washington area lately. My general observation is that the interactions among local Theosophists tend to be on the harmless side of the continuum of cult social settings. Theosophists never pressure you to believe anything. But by believing in an invisible hierarchy of Masters, they set up invisible hierarchies in their own organizations to reflect this. In the Adyar TS the invisible hierarchy is the ES. One becomes more "personally" involved in the TS as one ascends a spiritual hierarchy, and the interaction of these two factors makes for a strange group psychology. Pardon me a moment of progaganda for the A.R.E. Even for a person whose belief system is much more dominated by Blavatsky than Cayce (as I was in 1977-78 and again in 1988-89 when active in two Search for God groups) the ARE study group format provides a healthy level of personal involvement that has always felt more satisfying than anything in the Theosophical movement. (The Pasadena TS Headquarters has a very positive atmosphere without the kind of personality conflicts found in the Adyar TS.) The Pasadena TS branch I was active in throughout the 1980s had as many ARE members as Theosophists in attendance throughout the decade, so Caycean influence was always present in my local Theosophical experience. People in a study group focus on two series of twelve lessons on spiritual awakening. They can relate it to whatever is happening in their lives. Never gets too personal like group therapy, but is much better at connecting people in a common spiritual purpose than lecturing them is. Plus the group meditation creates a kind of organic link among the people. For all I know you live someplace like Berkeley and have a gazillion options of New Age groups to belong to. But if you're looking for something where people maintain a proper distance, but work on a personal basis together in a way warmer in tone than Theosophical groups, check out the Search for God material. Groups are usually between 8 and 18 people in my experience. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:37:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1029 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970519193744.00c1c7b8@mail.eden.com> At 02:43 PM 5/19/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >Doss, > >The passage on insight is one of the most appealing I've read >of Krishnamurti's works. I don't often enjoy "scriptures" >people post here, but I'll read anything of this quality from >K. you can find. > >Cheers, >Paul > Hello Paul: Glad you found the passage on insight appealing. The material was taken from a book of letters he wrote to the students of the school and as such was meant for school age children and written with very low fog index. I am also not a reader of scriptures; am always on the look out for stuff which have everyday application in life. Thanks again for your feedback. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:42:40 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Invisible Hierarchies Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970519194240.00c225a4@mail.eden.com> At 03:08 PM 5/19/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >organizations to reflect this. In the Adyar TS the invisible >hierarchy is the ES. One becomes more "personally" involved in >the TS as one ascends a spiritual hierarchy, and the >interaction of these two factors makes for a strange group >psychology. In one of my recent excerpts from Wood's book, he refers to this issue of the how members view the Adepts and their attitude to them. May be we need to re-post it. Woods is in a unique position to comment on a topic like this because of two reasons. First he had direct illumination from an Adept and second he has seen first hand how things operate in TS. ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:52:42 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Ye Bishoppe Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970518194237.006ad6dc@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >when George Arundale was elected as the International President, he >stopped calling himself as Bishop Arundale. I think he also resigned his >Bishopship. He set his Church affiliation aside to concentrate on the TS. He may have resigned his jurisdiction, but he could not "unbishop" himself - church theology regards ordination/consecration as indelible, ie, once a bishop, always a bishop, even if he never bishes anything. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:49:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Welcome back! Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >Oh yes. And the signatue was changed due to Alan's request. I figured I >should do that for him after all of the bashing I did before.*giggle* >Hmmm... but I'm not promising that THAT will stop either...*evil grin* > Bashing? I don't recall any bashing ... *sycophantic leer* Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:47:47 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Reunification||Re: how, why... Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >But then I would become a theosophist, not a theosophist who is not a >theosophist. I wouldn't want that...:) [Alan carried away gibbering in an old linen backet ...] > >--- >Jaqi. > >On Sun, 18 May 1997, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >I wrote: >> >Can you be a theosophist without being a theosophist? >> > >> > --signed, confused. (how do I do that to myself?) >> > >> >--- >> >Jaqi. >> >> Join Theosophy International. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:54:22 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Honesty? Message-ID: In message <970518155841_-1331620360@emout12.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >I have no problem with lying and cheating if they serve >my purposes. You'd better have a very good memory ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:55:56 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Camels and Needles Message-ID: In message <33806453.130818686@mail>, Bee Brown writes >There is another story I have heard. Back in those days there were >lots of baddies so all cities had walls round them with a small door >that was usable by any citizen caught outside the walls after the main >gates were locked. To get themselves and their camels in they had to >unload them and then reload them on the other side. This seemed >symbolic for unloading our unspiritual, material things before gaining >entry to the safety of the spiritual planes or what ever one may call >heaven. If one comes to the point where one can unload all >responsibility for 'things' and 'objects' one can pass through the eye >of the needle otherwise thought of as the antakarana. Oh indeed, the point of the story is that the spiritual levels or planes or worlds cannot be reached if we want to try to carry a lot of baggage with us as we go in. My "scholarly bit" was intended to show how theology shapes translations, and that power structures will retain errors in order to maintain the staus quo. Imagine the cost of reprinting all the bibles to correct the blunders of centuries, especially when lengthy tomes and careers have been built upon foundations of (sometimes) sand, and not rock ... Keep well, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:04:01 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: re: Interlocking leadership of TS/LCC/Masonic Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970520010401.006d39b8@mail.eden.com> At 07:02 PM 5/19/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970518194237.006ad6dc@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss > writes >>when George Arundale was elected as the International President, he >>stopped calling himself as Bishop Arundale. I think he also resigned his >>Bishopship. > >He set his Church affiliation aside to concentrate on the TS. He may >have resigned his jurisdiction, but he could not "unbishop" himself - >church theology regards ordination/consecration as indelible, ie, once a >bishop, always a bishop, even if he never bishes anything. > >Alan Thanks for the clarification. The point I was trying to highlight is the question whether on earth or heaven or in any higher planes the interlocking leadership between TS, LCC, and Masonic organizations does any good to TS. Also I already pointed out, how can any good come out of the Paris Faction suing the US Faction when the latter decided to become independent of Paris Based Foreign Leadership (like the declaration of Independence of USA) and many members of the Paris Faction hold offices in TSA and TSA members are in the Independent Faction. No matter how what the outcome of the lawsuit is, it is my humble opinion, that the lawsuit is not going to help TSA and on the other hand may be more likely to hurt. The problem gets more complicated in that after some time the lawyers on both sides are in the driver's seat and the ruthless litigation takes a life of its own. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:04:03 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: ES Shut Down Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970520010403.006d56cc@mail.eden.com> At 05:08 AM 5/19/97 -0400, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: >I would be very interested in Wood's description of the TS closure. I'm >sure it would be very helpful in my understanding of TS "politics" as well >as providing more to think about on people's need for dependence. > >--- >Jaqi. > I think you refer to ES closure. TS was never closed. Here follows Wood's description of the ES Shut Down and reopening during Annie Besant's time. Excerpted from Wood's book "Is This Theosophy ...?" ====================================================== In 1927 Dr. Besant was in America with Krishnamurti. He had now become very active and independent. He wrote charming poetry at that time, full of sympathetic feeling and penetrating thought. Dr. Besant announced that the World Teacher had definitely come, not as she had expected by the occasional stepping out of Krishnamurti and stepping in of the Lord, but by a constant mingling of I the consciousness of the Lord and that of his disciple. To this belief she adhered to the end of her life, and she made it the topic of her greatest enthusiasm, as can be seen in all her subsequent annual presidential addresses to the Society. In 1928 she closed the Eastern School, as the Lord had come, and it was his guidance that the people should now seek, not hers. But it was soon strongly represented to her by Bishop Leadbeater and his close adherents that many of its members, released from the discipline of the School, were becoming slack in their personal conduct, and in consequence of this pressure she opened it again a year later for those who felt that they could not discipline themselves and wanted a routine laid down for them. ================================================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:58:43 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Flesh and Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >I had known that Jehovah must >have "evolved" from the early, polytheistic gods, but I never knew that >"proof" was written right in the Bible. It gave me something to throw >around. Did you get around to downloading/reading my ~The Nazarenes~ on the website below? It could be relevant here. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:56:38 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Flesh and Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: In message <199705191846.MAA08718@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Ok, let's see. . .she found Christianity too patriarchal. . .so she >converted to Islam. > > >Hmmmm. . . Quite. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:29:02 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Flesh and Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997 kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > Jaqi. wrote: > > >With regards to the conversion, I remember her saying that the idea of God > >didn't seem quite right. That there were too many contradictions in what > >she was being taught and she didn't feel comfortable with the patriarchy. > > >. . .I suppose that ultimately she found that Islam came closest to what > she >perceived as being true. So the transition was not immediate. She did > not decide >suddenly that she wanted to be a Muslim. It was after a lot of > research and study. > > > Ok, let's see. . .she found Christianity too patriarchal. . .so she > converted to Islam. > > > Hmmmm. . . > Kym As I said, "came the closest". But your remark is funny. I think her reason for conversion had more to do with the overall philosophy, not the tradition. She didn't leave Christianity just because of the patriarchy. That was probably only one of the many things she did not agree with. I don't know whether or not she is living in America or Europe, but if she is, I doubt that the traditions of Islam have much effect on her. It is the philosophy that counts, really. btw, it's good to hear from you again. I heard your "pen" has been light lately. Perhaps you and I can start irritating everyone with our "sex battles" once again....*laugh* --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:33:26 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Ye Bishoppe Message-ID: Is "bishing" an enlightening thing to do? --- Jaqi. > He set his Church affiliation aside to concentrate on the TS. He may > have resigned his jurisdiction, but he could not "unbishop" himself - > church theology regards ordination/consecration as indelible, ie, once a > bishop, always a bishop, even if he never bishes anything. > > Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:41:05 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Flesh and Blood of Christ (Communion) Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > >Jaqi writes: > >I had known that Jehovah must > >have "evolved" from the early, polytheistic gods, but I never knew that > >"proof" was written right in the Bible. It gave me something to throw > >around. > > Did you get around to downloading/reading my ~The Nazarenes~ on the > website below? It could be relevant here. > > Alan > --------- > http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ The last time, (which was a LONG time ago, it seems), that I went on to your website, I kept getting error messages. Maybe the Masters were trying to tell me something...insight?*laugh* (I'm just teasing). I'll make it a point to go there again. I know you were having some problems with it before. They've probably been fixed for a long time. Thanx for the advice.:) --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:53:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Honesty? Message-ID: <970520005315_270244763@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-19 23:32:18 EDT, you write: >In message <970518155841_-1331620360@emout12.mail.aol.com>, >Drpsionic@aol.com writes >>I have no problem with lying and cheating if they serve >>my purposes. > >You'd better have a very good memory ... > >Alan Like an elephant, a creature I come more and more to resemble as I get older and my nose keeps growing. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:58:14 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Honesty Message-ID: Hi Doss, Thank you for the post on honesty. Yes, I find that honesty takes a whole lot less energy and thinking than deceit. However, I find that where there is fear, there is dishonesty. For example, a person may fear being ridiculed, fear loss of job, fear loss of love, etc. Dishonesty becomes part of the survival instinct. Based on my experience and observations, it's easy to be ideal about honesty when your life is basically sane. However, when you are in an environment in which you are impoverished or abused, dishonesty is a saving factor. For example, take a situation of a child who gets beaten for every single innocent act just because a parent could not control rage. For that child, dishonesty about any action, however innocuous, is a self-defense reaction. In this way, the child can present a very narrow acceptable range of behavior to the parent in order to avoid any punishment. That child can grow up conditioned with the fact that dishonesty is a savior, and continue that behavior. On the other hand, the child, as an adult, can remove him/herself from that situation, and can start to realize about the beauty of honesty. Anyway, let's say that although I now find honesty to be like swimming in clear, clean water, I also find the beauty in dishonesty. For some, dishonesty may be the only way they can stay alive and sane. Don't judge until you've walked a mile in another's moccasins. The way to help another is, first, to help him/her get out of a bad situation, and second, once the person is out of the bad situation, to help him/her realize that the self-defense reaction need not continue. Another sad If This Was a Perfect World... Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:02:16 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Re: Welcome back! Message-ID: Jaqi: >Jaqi = Triaist man. > >I will say that I am not the same person that I was five months ago, but >it is not because I had a sex change... at least not physically.:) It's >quite possible, however I am not really sure, that I'm at a mental halfway >point between becoming a man, or perhaps a woman....who knows?*smile* I >kinda like it. There probably won't be anymore "sex dilemmas(sp?)" >instigated by me anymore...however, I'm not promising anything...:) > >Oh yes. And the signatue was changed due to Alan's request. I figured I >should do that for him after all of the bashing I did before.*giggle* >Hmmm... but I'm not promising that THAT will stop either...*evil grin* Well, Jaqi, I like the new you, babe!:o) >Mischeivous as always... > >Jaqi. Don't ever change that. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:19:44 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: >In a message dated 97-05-19 03:17:45 EDT, you write: > >> Most of us are too.. ...doss >> >> > >I know, that's what makes us theosophists so annoying to each other. > >Chuck the Heretic That's why forgiveness is so very important. Forgive, hiccup, forgive. Forgiveness is basically a decision to let go of a stress. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:24:52 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Invisible Hierarchies Message-ID: Thanks, Paul, for the info. At the present moment, I'm not ready to join in a physical group, although I would like to get back into that one day. I'm putting all of the information in my pocket for when I'm ready to make my move. I'm grateful for this list. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:31:27 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Internet Message-ID: No imitation can take the place of a real thing. Something that requires the usage of all your senses is ultimately more rewarding than something that is limiting your senses. For example, as much as technology have tried to imitate painting (and doing a darn good job!), it could never replace the feel of a brush in the hand, the smell of paint, the texture, and the usage of the rest of the body in painting. Same goes for meeting people. You get more information meeting a person face to face rather than in a virtual atmosphere. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:59:25 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Internet Message-ID: >Thoa wrote: > No imitation can take the place of a real thing. Something that requires > the usage of all your senses is ultimately more rewarding than something > that is limiting your senses. For example, as much as technology have > tried to imitate painting (and doing a darn good job!), it could never > replace the feel of a brush in the hand, the smell of paint, the texture, > and the usage of the rest of the body in painting. Same goes for meeting > people. You get more information meeting a person face to face rather than > in a virtual atmosphere. > > Thoa This is all very true. Even writing with a pen is more sensuous, if I may, then typing on a keyboard, despite how inefficient writing now is. However, in the same way that typing (if you've trained sufficiently) empowers us to almost literally transcribe thought to paper (or monitor), the internet allows us to expand our senses, so to speak. We can see things that we never would have seen without it. We can see the art of the Louvre any time we want at a keystroke. We can communicate with people on other continents even living below poverty level (as defined by the American society). We can download, at very little, if no cost music from all parts of the world. Things that we couldn't afford in the past, which greatly enhance our knowledge of the world and the people within it, are very easily available to us. Granted, not everyone can afford a computer, but even libraries now have internet access. (However, most likely not all of them). This new tool of ours is a wonderful thing indeed. The problem with the above is, as we have said, the "experience" is not there. And as I said before, many people, particularly my generation, the one before me, and those that shall follow, will forget and are forgetting about experience. They have forgotten the slick glide of the paintbrush. The smooth vibration of the pen making its way across the paper. The smell of old books in the library. The passion of the human voice flowing from the open stage. The true beauty of acoustic strings, soaring in harmony above and through a mesmerized audience. All these things are being replaced. CD players. Electrically "enhanced" instruments. Computers. The internet. We are unfortunately going from one extreme to another. We need to keep the beauty, and the passion, and the power of experience and mix into our lives along with the intellectual expansion. My statements above may make me sound old-fashioned, but that is only because I am being hypocritical. I don't do these things. Sure, I write letters...about once every six months. I listen to an orchestra...maybe once every two years. I have a CD player, and I admit that the things which they can do with sounds get more and more awe-inspiring every day. But even the deepest bass, as far as I am concerned, cannot shake my bones like the shrill cry of the violin. I have to say that I am an "unplugged" type of gal. (or guy)*snicker* So...I have now lost my point. Either that or I have already made it. I'm not sure which. Oh yeah, the compromise. It would be fairly simple to get the best of both worlds, and to teach the next generation how to do the same. I don't think we're so far "ahead" or "behind" that the future is lost to experience. Now if you don't mind...I think I'm going to go dig out my guitar...:) Chow, Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:28:05 -0400 From: John E Mead Subject: FYI -- from jem: Fw: server setup and indexing onto cd-rom ts works Message-ID: <01IJ3EGO5HVE9G1SOA@InfoAve.Net> ---------- > From: caruanar@rosebay.matra.com.au > To: jem@vnet.net > Subject: server setup and indexing onto cd-rom ts works > Date: Sunday, May 18, 1997 4:54 PM > > Hello John, > My name is Richard Caruana, > Iam writing to you on behalf of Gladney Oakley from Australia > who wishes to put various theosophical publications onto cd-rom > the form of an index with a search engine. He has currently put > some 3000hours into this project and is looking for help from > where ever he can get it. > An idea I had was to form a control status web-page which people > could look at and see what has been done and what needs to be done and > who is doing it so that work is not necessarily done twice. > These works could then be collated together onto one cd and then sent > to those people that would like a copy. This would be of use to libraries > and researchers. > Also, we would both like to investigate the possibilty of setting up a > theosophical web-server in Australia. At present we don't have a too hard > basket. Can you help us. I work on the committee for Blavatsky lodge in > Australia. Section in Australia already has its own domain name. > Looking forward to future correspondence > kindest regards > Richard(I am thirty-two) & Gladney(He is a man about mid fifties) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:51:59 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Impersonality/Karma Message-ID: Hello Jaqi, I find that analyzing anything is analyzing karma, since everything can't help but be interconnected. It's great to look at the formula, but it's more interesting to see what actually happens, and how it fits into the formula. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:04:36 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: karma/virtual reality Message-ID: Experience is a much faster way of creating or dispensing of karmic effects. For example, on the internet, you deal with people in a very distant way, therefore largely avoiding conflicts and biases that could result from personal contact. As an experiment, notice the difference in your feeling if you were to talk to a person with eye to eye contact, and if you were to converse avoiding eye contact. Another factor that is avoided is forced instantaneous reaction. If your world is largely based on virtual reality, you will not train yourself to react properly in real time situations, when all your senses are picking up either positive or negative stimulations. In a spiritual group setting, that minimizing of karmic effect means the minimizing of personal growth (even if the REAL experience was a negative experience, it was a strong learning experience). It also means the minimizing of effect such a group can have. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:09:29 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: karma/weird lately? Message-ID: I did notice a lot of critical moments in my life and in the people I know. This may mean either positive or negative. That is, the critical moment is when the person is faced with a choice that will determine his/her life changes. With some people I know, opportunities start to come knocking, with others, a situation arose that could turn very bad. Either way, the universe is forcing them to make a life change, or at the very least, receive a strong lesson. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:09:51 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: karma/virtual reality-corrolary Message-ID: On the other hand, for some, too much face to face experience could be harmful. Some things in lower dosage is medicine, while in higher dosage is poison. For such people, the virtual environment may be a better choice. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:30:50 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Honesty Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970520193050.0070b518@mail.eden.com> At 02:01 AM 5/20/97 -0400, Thoa Thi-Kim Tran wrote: >Hi Doss, > >Thank you for the post on honesty. Yes, I find that honesty takes a whole >lot less energy and thinking than deceit. However, I find that where there >is fear, there is dishonesty. For example, a person may fear being >ridiculed, fear loss of job, fear loss of love, etc. Dishonesty becomes >part of the survival instinct. Based on my experience and observations, >it's easy to be ideal about honesty when your life is basically sane. >However, when you are in an environment in which you are impoverished or >abused, dishonesty is a saving factor. For example, take a situation of a >child who gets beaten for every single innocent act just because a parent >could not control rage. For that child, dishonesty about any action, >however innocuous, is a self-defense reaction. In this way, the child can >present a very narrow acceptable range of behavior to the parent in order >to avoid any punishment. That child can grow up conditioned with the fact >that dishonesty is a savior, and continue that behavior. On the other >hand, the child, as an adult, can remove him/herself from that situation, >and can start to realize about the beauty of honesty. > >Anyway, let's say that although I now find honesty to be like swimming in >clear, clean water, I also find the beauty in dishonesty. For some, >dishonesty may be the only way they can stay alive and sane. Don't judge >until you've walked a mile in another's moccasins. The way to help another >is, first, to help him/her get out of a bad situation, and second, once the >person is out of the bad situation, to help him/her realize that the >self-defense reaction need not continue. Another sad If This Was a Perfect >World... > >Thoa > > Hello Thoa: Your point is well taken. There are two comments I want to make. Firstly, there are always exceptions to the rule. Secondly, at all times we should use our common sense and gut feeling when we make decisions. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:33:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Charities List Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970520193323.006b7468@mail.eden.com> Hello Here is some interesting information. ...doss ========================== IRS Posts List Of Charities On The Internet The IRS has announced (IR-97-29) that its website now contains the list of organizations (Publication 78) to which donations made will qualify as charitable deductions. Those interested in the list may visit the "Tax Information for You" and "Tax Information for Business" sections of the Service's website (http://www.irs. ustreas.gov.). The list will be updated each calendar quarter with the names and locations of new exempt organizations. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:45:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Welcome back! Message-ID: <970520154508_237139017@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-20 02:58:11 EDT, Alan wrote: > Bashing? I don't recall any bashing ... *sycophantic leer* > Is that the opposite of "bishing"? Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:45:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Internet Message-ID: <970520154520_2086140489@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-20 07:51:44 EDT, Thoa wrote: > No imitation can take the place of a real thing. Something that requires > the usage of all your senses is ultimately more rewarding than something > that is limiting your senses. For example, as much as technology have > tried to imitate painting (and doing a darn good job!), it could never > replace the feel of a brush in the hand, the smell of paint, the texture, > and the usage of the rest of the body in painting. Hmmm. I couldn't resist responding to this. ;-D I used to draw in charcoals until I discovered the freeware program Fauve Matisse in Gray. Instead of having a blending stub or charcoal in my hand, I have a trackball (which I use as a mouse) and I no longer have newspapers spread out on the floor. Learning the software and how to draw by using a trackball was, of course, quite different from using traditional media, and pretty demanding. But, I personally found that I'm freer to experiment because drawing using software is a thousand times more forgiving (there's always Undo and it's far easier to change something that was jet black to white, which is practically impossible using real charcoals). So, while it is quite a different medium (though I can produce drawings with the same "look"), I don't consider it a "lesser" medium. However, I do feel that computers in general have provided us with yet another way to express human creativity (in many different ways) and perhaps allow the expression of what we sense inwardly to be outwardly manifested more truly. (I'm sure all of us write more clearly and accurately because it is so much easier to edit and refine what we say using word processors, for example.) > Same goes for meeting > people. You get more information meeting a person face to face rather than > in a virtual atmosphere. But, I wonder how much of that information one gets in F2F encounters is necessary information or even downright distracting information. This one of the things that has intrigued me in virtual communication. (It apparently intrigued AT&T or some other Internet provider as well because they made a commercial on this very subject.) When reading something via email, on a UseNet group, or in a chat room, you're judging the words on their own merits without gender, race, whether they're picking their nose while talking to you, or other superficialities entering into it (unless you read the email header first and can determine the writer's gender from their name). IOW, it's almost a physical plane analog of telepathic communication. In a way, I think it's a part of human evolution to train us to interact without superficialities intervening and for training us to work in groups to serve humanity by first conceiving the plan of action in the realm of ideas before concretizing it on the physical plane. (I'm just saying this as only one method of working together, not that it is or should be the *only* method.) There are drawbacks to virtual communication, I agree. It's a "cold" medium and we've had to develop emoticons, etc. to compensate for the inability to see the smile on the other's face, etc. (part of the information you referred to, Thoa, exchanged in F2F meetings). However, I do believe that the development of the Internet has a profound significance in terms of bringing humanity together and in accustomizing us to viewing each other as more than physical plane personalities, that it is an externalization of esoteric events and processes. I'm not really disagreeing with you, Thoa. You simply inspired me this morning. ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 97 20:04:52 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: I really shouldn't comment Message-ID: >From what I have seen, many organizations have been very slow in effectively using the new tool of communication. For example, recently I inquired our TSA Board of Directors (individual Directors) as to if any of them have e-mail address. One responded saying no and rest have not responded. It looks like they still do not understand or appreciate the usefulness of e-mail as a tool of communication. Of course with the quick communication tool, you lose the slack that is available in the snail mail, which is sometimes an advantage when you want to drag your feet. Keith: I have been refused entrance to Krotona, now probably forever. So what the heck. But it has been my experience: that some people have the ear of the TSA. These are not the common crowd, but the names like Jean Houston, Ken Wilber etc. Thus perhaps justly so and in a somewhat self-satisfied manner the TSA has become: 1. heirciarchical 2. elitist. 3. fearful of losing the support of the Kern Foundation 4. taken on the personality of several key figure who want to revel in the glories of the past 5. There are exception like the QUEST and other things, but the "new" blood that is desired is usally rich, concervative, very worshipful of HPB without really having read her!, and in generally not rocking the boat or getting any more bad publicity after the theosophical overtones of groups like THE SOLAR TEMPLE, HEAVEN"S GATE and so on. 6. Blavatsky is not quoted in serious scholarship so Ken Wilber who practically restates her, but never gives her the least credit. Right now, I feel some have settled on Krishnamurti, or Annie Bessant as a substitute guru and very safe since they are dead. By the way, its seems that most great teachers of the past suffered and took on the karma on their community i.e. socrates (hemlock), Christ (crucifiction), Krishnamurti (painful cancer). Like I said, I really shouldn't comment Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 97 20:13:18 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Honesty is Shocking! Message-ID: Now that I'm resending this again, again, again, I'd like to add another thing. Welcome, also, Jaqi! At first I thought Triaist man signed himself as Jaqi in response to Alan's request. After reading Jaqi's posts, I realize that the tone was different. Jaqi, Triaist man once made a statement regarding that he might be fooling us and that he was actually a woman. Oh, well, he still might be. ************************ Triaist man(?): >Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm back. A different name and a different >sex ...but hey, what the hell. The signature's the same right?:) Keith: Yeah! Welcome back whoever! I thought nothing could surpass my shocking revelations (shocking because it was my stuff, I guess), but this take the cake. I never new what a Triaist was any way and now all I can say is Jaqui OH!. I guess on the internet we are allowed to be anonymous or cloaked anyway and yet reveal our real selves in an equally strange way. P.S. Did you see SPY HARD, where the bumbling detectives are on the phone and one says, "use the cloaking device!" and the othe detective grabs his coat, puts it on his head and continues to talk in a whisper. You have to see it for yourself. I haven't recently laughed so hard! Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:30:18 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Re: Honesty is Shocking! Message-ID: >Triaist man(?): >>Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm back. A different name and a different >>sex ...but hey, what the hell. The signature's the same right?:) > >Keith: Yeah! Welcome back whoever! I thought nothing could surpass my >shocking revelations (shocking because it was my stuff, I guess), but this >take the cake. I never new what a Triaist was any way and now all I can say is >Jaqui OH!. I guess on the internet we are allowed to be anonymous or cloaked >anyway and yet reveal our real selves in an equally strange way. Keith, perhaps he was a woman named Jaqui all along! It all makes sense, a guy named John Straughn (John Strong, how masculine) who fights for men's causes. I guess he was a woman who dreamed that she was a man who thought that he was a woman who pretended to be a man thought to be sexist but is not who turned into a carrot, then a cabbage, and possibly a fruitist. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:46:35 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: I really shouldn't comment Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970520234635.006bdfe8@mail.eden.com> At 04:16 PM 5/20/97 -0400, JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > > >>From what I have seen, many organizations have been very slow >in effectively using the new tool of communication. For example, recently I >inquired our TSA Board of Directors (individual Directors) as to if any of >them have e-mail address. One responded saying no and rest have not >responded. It looks like they still do not understand or appreciate the >usefulness of e-mail as a tool of communication. Of course with the quick >communication tool, you lose the slack that is available in the snail mail, >which is sometimes an advantage when you want to drag your feet. > >Keith: > >I have been refused entrance to Krotona, now probably forever. So what the >heck. > Can you fill me on this. If you so desire, you can send me a private msg. As for Krotona, I do not know what is so special about that place to you. I believe you are in Houston. If so you are already in a sacred place which has been charged with powerful magnetism by Ernest Wood who lived in Houston during his last days. Ernest Wood had direct contact with one of the Adepts, not a second - third - nth hand contact. He also received continuing guidance and information from the Adepts for a long period of time. The one person whom you may want to talk to, who had known Ernest Wood when he lived in Houston and was marginalized by the bureucracy is Ethel Wood (no relation of Ernest Wood). Some time ago, some one mentioned that the average age of the Krotona residents is in the neighborhood of upper eightees. I hope you are not in that age range; may be you have to wait to you reach that age range. In addition, it does not take much of intelligence to extrapolate what is likely to happen in say 10-15-20 years to Krotona. I do not want to think about it! Any spiritual help and progress can be obtained where you live now. >But it has been my experience: > >that some people have the ear of the TSA. These are not the common crowd, but >the names like Jean Houston, Ken Wilber etc. Don't worry. Jean was the one who mislead everyone about her academic qualifications and Ken is one whose fog level is such that I who am not illiterate find it impossible to read and understand and enjoy. Of course his books, as far as I am concerned, works like a charmed substitute to sleeping pills. They work better and faster and cheaper with no side effects and no recurring expense. > >Thus perhaps justly so and in a somewhat self-satisfied manner the TSA has >become: > >1. heirciarchical >2. elitist. >3. fearful of losing the support of the Kern Foundation >4. taken on the personality of several key figure who want to revel in the >glories of the past >5. There are exception like the QUEST and other things, but the "new" blood >that is desired is usally rich, concervative, very worshipful of HPB without >really having read her!, and in generally not rocking the boat or getting any >more bad publicity after the theosophical overtones of groups like THE SOLAR >TEMPLE, HEAVEN"S GATE and so on. >6. Blavatsky is not quoted in serious scholarship so Ken Wilber who >practically restates her, but never gives her the least credit. > > >Right now, I feel some have settled on Krishnamurti, or Annie Bessant as a >substitute guru and very safe since they are dead. Let me post a talk on gurus by Krishnaji. After all the famous occult dictum - Man/woman Know Thyself. If you take that approach you don't need anyone or any organization as a crutch. All that needs is the self-confidence in oneself without becoming arrogant about it. > >By the way, its seems that most great teachers of the past suffered and took >on the karma on their community i.e. socrates (hemlock), Christ >(crucifiction), Krishnamurti (painful cancer). You forgot to add, when Krishnaji was alive, he was sued for $9,000,000 by four individuals and I know for sure that at least one of them is a member of TSA and had held/holding office at the National Level in TSA. (This fact is very little known to the membership and it took almost 20 years for me to find out) May be Krishnaji paid for the Karma of the Community -- the litiguous society that USA is. Since I do not know how Karma works, this is just my reading. YMDMV - Your mileage and direction may vary. Cheers ........MKRamadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:46:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Honesty is Shocking! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970520234638.006c146c@mail.eden.com> At 04:24 PM 5/20/97 -0400, JOSEPH PRICE wrote: >P.S. Did you see SPY HARD, where the bumbling detectives are on the phone and >one says, "use the cloaking device!" and the othe detective grabs his coat, >puts it on his head and continues to talk in a whisper. > >You have to see it for yourself. I haven't recently laughed so hard! Thanks for the tip. I am always looking for good movies. ................MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:12:37 GMT From: gbartle@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gregg Bartle) Subject: Re: I really shouldn't comment Message-ID: <33853b4e.31440044@uclink> On Tue, 20 May 1997 19:47:50 -0400 (EDT), MKR wrote: >>But it has been my experience: >> >>that some people have the ear of the TSA. These are not the common crowd, but >>the names like Jean Houston, Ken Wilber etc. > > Don't worry. Jean was the one who mislead everyone about her academic >qualifications and Ken is one whose fog level is such that I who am not >illiterate find it impossible to read and understand and enjoy. Of course >his books, as far as I am concerned, works like a charmed substitute to >sleeping pills. They work better and faster and cheaper with no side effects >and no recurring expense. > As you say - mileage and direction may vary. I find Wilber good for keeping me awake into the wee hours of morn, while the fog around K. seems like a veritible pea-souper, to me. That doesn't mean I particularly like Wilber's approach, or dislike K's, in fact the opposite is more like it. It just goes to show that perceptions, tastes and attitudes are tricky. Peace and Clear Skies - -Gregg From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:30:25 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Gurus Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970521003025.00689a98@mail.eden.com> Keith mentioned about Gurus. Many of us have many different kinds of ideas and expectations about a Guru. Some treat the Guru as a spiritual consultant others treat them as a replacement for their traditional gods. Of course there are gurus who have exploited their followers. Here is something that Krishnaji spoke in 1933 about Gurus. ============================================= GURUS Question: Why should we not follow gurus, who teach the method of independent thinking? Krishnamurti: I know I have discussed with so many people throughout the world this idea of following a guru, a teacher, a master. I am not dogmatic. I know the consequences of all that I am saying. I have been through that Ä following systems, gurus, and all that myself, and only when I freed my mind from all sense of gurus, conformities, and systems, only then was there a living reality, not until then. It is only when through understanding you completely free yourself from all conformity, will you know that living reality, which cannot be explained, which is incommunicable, which cannot be found through any path or system. This is not rhetoric. I shall explain to you why. To follow a guru is destructive. Please let me add here, I know almost all of you, a vast majority of you, are seeking a guru. Most of you have gurus. So you are here to find out what I think and know. If you think you are going to realize that Godhead of understanding, please go ahead. I have nothing to say, but the moment you come to me and ask me, "Is a guru necessary for understanding?" then I say, "No." On the contrary it is destructive. It is not just an idea of mine. This is not an intellectual thing it is a living reality. Until you feel these things, words have no meaning. You can attend hundreds of meetings and even then you will still remain slavish to a guru. Do you know what creates conflict, both in the world of spirituality and in the world of action? Take an example and then you will see. If I know the right value of money, then money loses its attractiveness, its glory, its potential power. As most of us want power, comfort, possession, authority, we run after money. Now, so long as there are false values, there must be conflict, and no guru, no system, no method except your own clarity, your perception, is ever going to free your mind from false values. You want a house, you want power. It is no good going to a guru, for example, and saying, "Please teach me how to find out right values." You go to a guru and ask him to teach you spiritual things and yet continue with your daily mundane activities, your daily acquisitions. That is, spiritually you live in a cloud with your ideas and so on, and in this world of action, you exploit others for your own security. Naturally, there is a split, there is a division in your life. No guru can bring about right harmony of living except your own perspective of right values. Now, to find out right values, you cannot say, "Please teach me." You cannot ask the way to find right values. Right values depend on countries, climate, position, and so on, depending upon the individual. You cannot lay down one eternal law. So to discover right values is not to comply with a system but to find out what prevents your clarity of perception. Please understand this. Now we want to be told what right values are, whether we need money or not, how many clothes, how many meals we should eat, at what time to get up and so on, and to learn them by heart. This is an absurd way of looking at life. Whereas to find out the subtlety of it, try to find out what prevents you from discovering right values. Then you will see that what prevents you is this continual wanting, craving, the desire to possess. Then you will know how to free yourself from craving, when you are really up against it. Now you are merely sitting back and looking at that part of your being that is wanting possessions and then saying separately, "I must not have it." Find out for yourself through continued awareness, alertness of mind and heart, what are the causes that prevent you from perceiving things in their right proportion, in their right beauty. The guru who teaches you the method of independent thinking does not exist. Do not say, "My particular guru teaches me that." That is an absurd way of getting out of it. There is no method, no system; there is no guru who can liberate you. I know this is contrary to your sacred literature, to all your ways of thinking. I know it, and knowing it, I still assert that it is impossible other than your finding out for yourself, in your aloneness, the true right values of all things; and in that aloneness alone comes the ecstasy of eternal pleasure, not through following or by allowing yourself to be guided by another, or by a system. Please understand this. Where there is shaping, where there is conformity to a pattern or to an ideal, there cannot be understanding. Please let me explain it again. Most of you are trained as Hindus or Muslims or in some religious sect. Your mind has been trained from childhood on certain definite lines, and your mind is prejudiced. And with that prejudice, with that religious inclination, you have all your principles and prejudices, all your ideas of religion, of God, of ceremonies; and so you meet me always at an angle, you see me with your religion. So we meet under experiences partly completed. So we never understand, so we never follow the significance of every experience, we never take to ourselves the full perfume of the flower. Your minds are so suffocated with ideas which are mostly false that no method can free you from past tradition, because the method becomes another cage in which you will be caught. So to free the mind, never allow your past traditions, your upbringing, your social laws, your religious edicts, to penetrate your thinking. The moment you do not allow them to penetrate your thinking, you will be free. You know, it is tragic to see how we waste our energy. Our struggle now is to conform to an ideal. We establish an ideal and then try to adjust ourselves to those ideals, systems, and ideas-establish a pattern and then struggle to conform. I say, do not do that, but free the mind of all sense of conformity, which does not mean that you should do exactly what you like. Karachi, Pakistan. Third Public Lecture, Feb. 13, 1933 ======================== end =========================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:04:24 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Honesty? Message-ID: In message <970520005315_270244763@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >my nose keeps growing. > >Chuck the Heretic The Pinnochio of theos-l ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 01:07:27 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Ye Bishoppe Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >Is "bishing" an enlightening thing to do? > >--- >Jaqi. Enlightening, informative, and extremely unrewarding. Alan (Rt.Rev.) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:36:41 -0700 (PDT) From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Thi-Kim Tran) Subject: Bye for now Message-ID: Hi folks, I've been doing back and forth on this for the last few weeks, since I do enjoy the discussions. I, like Ann, have a deadline for a project. Unlike Ann, who's shooting for the millenium, I have until the end of this year to get it done. With the deadline critically near, I'm going to have to really focus, be truly the mad artist, cyber or otherwise. Hopefully, when I log on back next year, I will also have a web site. Also hopefully, I would have done some theosophical studying and contribute with erudite writings (pushing nose up)...:o) I feel kinda bad having to log off when some former members are coming back and we are having gender confusion problems. Any cure for theos-l withdrawal problems? Have a great year, folks. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:54:30 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Bye for now Message-ID: This is really too bad. I was looking forward to our discussions ..*sigh* Nevertheless, I understand deadlines:). The only cure for theos-l withdrawal, that I have discovered is to LOG BACK ON. So do it soon, k? Goodbye for now, I hope to see your webpage soon! *wave* --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:58:48 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Bye for now Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970521025848.006fe3f0@mail.eden.com> At 10:37 PM 5/20/97 -0400, Thoa Thi-Kim Tran wrote: >problems. Any cure for theos-l withdrawal problems? Yes. Subscribe to theos-l. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:25:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Explosion Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970521142539.00beaa58@mail.eden.com> Hi I just saw that in the US, the Internet Domain registration has hit 1,000,000 mark. Just goes to show the growth of Internet. When you travel and stay in a hotel they provide telephone and TV. You don't carry your telephone or TV with you when you travel. Now many carry their computers. A hotel in England is providing Internet in the rooms. You dont need to carry your computer with you to pickup or send e-mail. This service is just like every hotel now providing FAX capability. Again, Internet is unstoppable. All of us are going to benefit. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:45:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Gurus Message-ID: <970521134410_-1432281630@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-20 21:57:46 EDT, you write: > Keith mentioned about Gurus. Many of us have many different kinds of ideas > and expectations about a Guru. Some treat the Guru as a spiritual consultant > others treat them as a replacement for their traditional gods. Of course > there are gurus who have exploited their followers. Here is something that > Krishnaji spoke in 1933 about Gurus. Doss, Thanks so much for posting that! What a truly liberating message!!!! Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:46:01 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: Bye for now Thoa Message-ID: <01BC661F.9E23D8E0@annasb.ismennt.is> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC661F.9E2B7A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Thoa (darling!) Theos-l will not be the same without you, you know, but one has gotta do what one has gotta do, so best wishes in your deadlined project. Let us know about your web site when ready. It will be some consolation for us in our lonely months to come. Thanks for a cheerful presence Thoa (a cyber hug...;-) Einar in the Icelandic light nights. PS. I added some english pages to the TS hompage. It is nowhere near finished, but you can look up the URL: http://www.itn.is/~theosoph/ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC661F.9E2B7A00 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgQTAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYADAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAQAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAPwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHRoZW9zLWxAdm5ldC5u ZXQAU01UUAB0aGVvcy1sQHZuZXQubmV0AAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAEQAA AHRoZW9zLWxAdm5ldC5uZXQAAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAEwAAACd0aGVvcy1s QHZuZXQubmV0JwAAAgELMAEAAAAWAAAAU01UUDpUSEVPUy1MQFZORVQuTkVUAAAAAwAAOQAAAAAL AEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAQdLQEEgAEAEQAAAEJ5ZSBmb3Igbm93IFRob2EApwUBBYAD AA4AAADNBwUAFQATAC4AAQADADMBASCAAwAOAAAAzQcFABUAEwAuAAEAAwAzAQEJgAEAIQAAAEVC MEMwNUMzMDJEMkQwMTFBMTBFNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAMwGAQOQBgAkBAAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAm AAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAINyHnB9mvAEeAHAAAQAAABEAAABCeWUg Zm9yIG5vdyBUaG9hAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8Zh+ch8MFDO/SAhHQoQ5ERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwB AAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAASAAAAYW5uYXNiQGlzbWVubnQuaXMAAAADAAYQ2DOT9AMA BxCIAQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASElUSE9BKERBUkxJTkcpVEhFT1MtTFdJTExOT1RCRVRIRVNBTUVX SVRIT1VUWU9VLFlPVUtOT1csQlVUT05FSEFTR09UVEFET1dIQVRPTkVIQVNHT1RUQURPLFNPQkVT VFdJUwAAAAACAQkQAQAAAKICAACeAgAAdQQAAExaRnVwfcNU/wAKAQ8CFQKkA+QF6wKDAFATA1QC AGNoCsBzZXTuMgYABsMCgzIDxgcTAoMyMxMPZjQDxQIAcHJ2cRIgE4V9CoAIzwnZO/EXjzI1NQKA CoENsQtgwG5nMTAzOQr7EvIVDAFjAEAgCotsaTEEODAC0WktMTQ0zw3wDNAd4wtZMTYKoANgznQF kAVAHH0zNh6HFCIDDAEfhkhpIFRob3BhIChkCsAdQBqQIQ4pCoUKhSLAZW9zLSsDIAPwbAMgbh+g IGKIZSB0JKAgc2EHgK8lASXQCGAFQHkIYCwm0tQgayVgdycQYiaxAiA3JbARwAQgZx+gAZAgZFpv HGZ3EcAn/28nEHP7KQAloHMFQAPxJKAEIAuAZybSBcANsGFkI1EJgCBVH4FqH8EuI7xMEgAgdnUE ICdyIAGgJqUpcWX+YiYAJnAmQSSgA6AXkCyQ8HkuIEkrYiUxJaErAL8mMQqFBaAAgAbwKbBpAiD+ IAIQBcAusSvxLDIXICggWGx5IARgAjBoBCB0fykABaAHgDEQHGYkJwBwax8EIDNiIvARsAngcmZ1 7wMgFfAHkAnwYyWwIsQ3UYZ5JaAFwGh1Zy45oHMbTxxQOy0hLx+kI61FbwuACsEr8SXSSThgGnFk xGljNDBpZ2gFQAMAZT8Rcy2NUFMxES8gZO8NsCzwMeMJ8GcdQCugLQDcYWcHkTUhJdJUBfAi0P5t QjIthjExBAAlUTBxF5C/JVAsgAXAHbADACuhZCe0TScyYwORFyBvay6gcOElw1VSTDoKhztLHDF/ DGAXcB+FHTA20CzwPyB0oHA6Ly93SsAuJnBibkrwcy9+JdEkwG/4cGgvOy8fq02PTp9Pr68gLwtV FVJM3yAWsQBUQAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzBA3Vf8Hma8AUAACDAg3IecH2a8AR4APQAB AAAAAQAAAAAAAAADAA00/TcAAJAd ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC661F.9E2B7A00-- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:41:29 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Gurus Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970521204129.00c2601c@mail.eden.com> At 01:46 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Wildefire@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-20 21:57:46 EDT, you write: > >> Keith mentioned about Gurus. Many of us have many different kinds of ideas >> and expectations about a Guru. Some treat the Guru as a spiritual >consultant >> others treat them as a replacement for their traditional gods. Of course >> there are gurus who have exploited their followers. Here is something that >> Krishnaji spoke in 1933 about Gurus. > >Doss, > >Thanks so much for posting that! What a truly liberating message!!!! > >Lynn > Hi Lynn: Far too often I have personally seen how good and earnest and sincere men and women have transferred all their judgement and decisions to a Guru, who very often ended up exploiting the followers. If K's msg helped us to understand what a Guru is really, then it is going to help us all from being misled. I recall the in the ML to APS, there was a mention how till the highest initiations, the chela is left to his own counsel and decision making because that is the only way you grow up. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:02:57 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: to Thoa re what should we teach Message-ID: <199705212120.RAA22325@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Hi, Thoa, Sorry I'm taking so long to answer. During the last few days, several doctor's appointments took up most of my spare time. I think this discussion is really an interesting one, and I thought a lot about what you wrote. What you write about how to teach the various age groups is really valuable. It sounds like you've had a lot of experience. Don't know whether you read John Algeo's "Theosophical Views of War & Pacifism". I did, and it caused me to discover an entirely different slant of what Theosophy tries to teach. I hadn't thought of it in just that way, but I think he's right. Theosophy doesn't solve problems for you, doesn't give you pat answers, - there is no dogma - but rather tries to give you the wherewithall to solve a problem you might stumble across, so that you are able to resolve it according to your circumstances at the time. He says it a lot more gracefully and to the point than I can. "... Theosophy does not tell us what the answers should be, perharps because there are no universally valid answers or perhaps because it is necessary that we arrive at our own answers. Theosophy holds that nothing is good or evil in itself, but is so only because it is in or out of place, harmmonious or disharmonious with its surroundings and with the flow of life. Harmony and disharmony are not things, but relationships. Answers can only apply to specific situations, and we have the responsiblity and the opportunity of finding the answers for each situation we are in. 'When you come to a fork in the road, take it!'" That gives further stimulus to the idea we both had of having hands on workshops. I'll go back to the karma problem I suggested talking about. John's message means to me that it's much more subtle and sophistcated than just coming up with "well, this is what you should do, and period." We should say something like "that and that is the problem". But well, now its causes might be a or b or a and b in combination, and the person having the problem might be heading for c or for d. and then you would consider all probablilities and possibilities, and various participants would come up with various ways of handling it. There would be lots of interaction, I'd hope, and people being tolerant of the diverse solutions of others, and having fun imagining all the different possibilities, and outcomes. You say that Theosophy is supposed to replace the superstition, emotionalism, and factionalism of religions. That's a wonderful objective, I find. I think if we went along the lines John Algeos describes that'd help. Religion is the opiate of the masses. I see it around me every day. People behave just so, and are kept in place because their religion tells them to "be good". I agree that factionlism should have no place in Theosophy. We should create a feeling of human beings bonding, and our actions should follow those feelings. I think a rapprochement is slowly coming about, very slowly. We had a conference in New York City once, all of us together, about 10, 15 years ago, and it was quite nice. Things were going on here and there, I think, but what I know is that the major factions again combined their activities for the Parliament of Religions, several years go. (I saw a video of some of this, it was quite good) Sometimes I think that the internet is also a way of reducing the barriers, but that isn't always so. Every once in a while, a group of people on the internet pounces down on one of the theosopohical leaders or the other, those belonging to a different faction than they do. I think that's disgusting. I also think that we ought to practice what we preach a little better, as you say. I wonder about the internet as a first time experience for somebody. It's sometimes hard to follow, and sometimes there's misinformation. We started up once putting on lessons for beginners, but it petered out very quickly. Somebody has to take a lot of time, or else have a scanner, to put some of our literature on the internet, and then be ready to answer questions. I like the idea you've worked out for a week-end intensive experience. I like the idea of combining such things as nature walk or drumming etc . with discussion groups, and then a service activity. It's a very nicely diverse mix. I hope Wheaton picks up on your idea of having someone available to reply to gripes. That would, I think, often clear the air. They sometimes read what's on theos-l. Like this time John Algeo (again) writes, in response to people's complaint, that he spends too much money traveling, that he always pays his own way and Adele's. I wish they'd answer some of the other money matter questions we've asked them. About everyone chipping in a little, it never seems to work that way. There are always a few who do the work, and the rest watch. Let's start with the comedy course. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:41:43 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: HOW,WHY Message-ID: <199705212259.SAA23802@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Jaqtarin writes: > I can get people to listen >to me just as long as I don't say, "In theosophical terms...", or >"Theosophists tend to believe....". My experience, exactly. Matter of fact, I had a study group going for a while, and they all joined the Society, but I never said anything about "Theosophy says ...". We just took up topics that were Theosophical. I once had a guest who was ULT, and she preched HPB at them, and they resented it. I tried to give them Theosophy by osmosis, at least in the beginning. I think it's a real problem. We've got something good to offer, but the moment we start quoting or preaching we lose the listeners ... at least in the beginning ... until they understand us better. I never talk much about Theosophy with the people I live with. They know I'm a Theosophist, but there's only one who was curious enough to ask what it was. So I tried to tell her. That's not easy either in 20 words or less. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:14:08 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: who. how Message-ID: <199705212331.TAA14116@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >If I have to stop caring in order to help, Jaqui don't *ever* stop caring. That is the energy which drives your actions. What I try to do is care a lot, and with that caring try to understand what makes the person I want to help tick, and then I try to step back for a moment to figure out how best to help. And then I try to go to it, with everything I can put into it. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 97 19:51:32 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: K. and Jesus Message-ID: <199705212351.TAA22523@leo.vsla.edu> Today's message from Krishmamurti dovetailed with my current reading, which is The Lost Gospel, by Burton Mack. It examines the evidence for various layers of composition in Q, the lost gospel which is the basis for the synoptics, John, and Thomas. Mack concludes that the fundamental message of the historical Jesus was one of nonconformity to social norms, the need to question everything, the possibility of coming to one's own direct apprehension of truth. All the other stuff-- apocalyptic expectations, claims to special relationship with God, etc.-- came later. This makes K.'s 20th century message all the more relevant, since it seems to echo what the historical Jesus had to say 200 years ago. Thanks again, Doss. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:02:26 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: flesh & blood of Christ Message-ID: <199705220020.UAA13825@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >She didn't leave Christianity just because of the patriarchy. If she wasn't in accord with the Christian patriarchy she surely didn't become Moslem. That's even more patriarchal. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:34:24 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: K. and Jesus Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970522003424.00716ca4@mail.eden.com> At 07:51 PM 5/21/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >Today's message from Krishmamurti dovetailed with my current >reading, which is The Lost Gospel, by Burton Mack. It examines >the evidence for various layers of composition in Q, the lost >gospel which is the basis for the synoptics, John, and Thomas. >Mack concludes that the fundamental message of the historical >Jesus was one of nonconformity to social norms, the need to >question everything, the possibility of coming to one's own >direct apprehension of truth. All the other stuff-- >apocalyptic expectations, claims to special relationship with >God, etc.-- came later. This makes K.'s 20th century message >all the more relevant, since it seems to echo what the >historical Jesus had to say 200 years ago. > >Thanks again, Doss. > >Cheers, >Paul Hi, Paul: Thanks for your feedback. Simple and direct approach to issues and problems appeals to me. And again the fundamental issue is one of not taking anything for granted. Questioning everything and coming to ones own conclusions. After all it is very easy to be a follower and it is far more difficult to be creative and original. I think that K has been trying to reiterate the famous maxim "Man/Woman Know Thyself". ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:38:11 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Bye for now Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970522003811.006bc630@mail.eden.com> At 10:37 PM 5/20/97 -0400, Thoa Thi-Kim Tran wrote: >Hi folks, > >I've been doing back and forth on this for the last few weeks, since I do >enjoy the discussions. I, like Ann, have a deadline for a project. Unlike >Ann, who's shooting for the millenium, I have until the end of this year to I am not very sure about Ann. She may still be lurking on theos-l. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:51:04 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Bye for now Thoa Message-ID: That's right...you should be having those too. It's hard enough for me to get to sleep without the world spinning the way it does... PLEASE MAKE IT STOP. heh. Ok I'm better now... --- Jaqi. > Einar in the Icelandic light nights. > > > > > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC661F.9E2B7A00 > Content-Type: application/ms-tnef > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > > eJ8+IgQTAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy > b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYADAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAQAAAAL > AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAPwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHRoZW9zLWxAdm5ldC5u > ZXQAU01UUAB0aGVvcy1sQHZuZXQubmV0AAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAEQAA > AHRoZW9zLWxAdm5ldC5uZXQAAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAEwAAACd0aGVvcy1s > QHZuZXQubmV0JwAAAgELMAEAAAAWAAAAU01UUDpUSEVPUy1MQFZORVQuTkVUAAAAAwAAOQAAAAAL > AEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAQdLQEEgAEAEQAAAEJ5ZSBmb3Igbm93IFRob2EApwUBBYAD > AA4AAADNBwUAFQATAC4AAQADADMBASCAAwAOAAAAzQcFABUAEwAuAAEAAwAzAQEJgAEAIQAAAEVC > MEMwNUMzMDJEMkQwMTFBMTBFNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAMwGAQOQBgAkBAAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAm > AAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAINyHnB9mvAEeAHAAAQAAABEAAABCeWUg > Zm9yIG5vdyBUaG9hAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8Zh+ch8MFDO/SAhHQoQ5ERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwB > AAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAASAAAAYW5uYXNiQGlzbWVubnQuaXMAAAADAAYQ2DOT9AMA > BxCIAQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASElUSE9BKERBUkxJTkcpVEhFT1MtTFdJTExOT1RCRVRIRVNBTUVX > SVRIT1VUWU9VLFlPVUtOT1csQlVUT05FSEFTR09UVEFET1dIQVRPTkVIQVNHT1RUQURPLFNPQkVT > VFdJUwAAAAACAQkQAQAAAKICAACeAgAAdQQAAExaRnVwfcNU/wAKAQ8CFQKkA+QF6wKDAFATA1QC > AGNoCsBzZXTuMgYABsMCgzIDxgcTAoMyMxMPZjQDxQIAcHJ2cRIgE4V9CoAIzwnZO/EXjzI1NQKA > CoENsQtgwG5nMTAzOQr7EvIVDAFjAEAgCotsaTEEODAC0WktMTQ0zw3wDNAd4wtZMTYKoANgznQF > kAVAHH0zNh6HFCIDDAEfhkhpIFRob3BhIChkCsAdQBqQIQ4pCoUKhSLAZW9zLSsDIAPwbAMgbh+g > IGKIZSB0JKAgc2EHgK8lASXQCGAFQHkIYCwm0tQgayVgdycQYiaxAiA3JbARwAQgZx+gAZAgZFpv > HGZ3EcAn/28nEHP7KQAloHMFQAPxJKAEIAuAZybSBcANsGFkI1EJgCBVH4FqH8EuI7xMEgAgdnUE > ICdyIAGgJqUpcWX+YiYAJnAmQSSgA6AXkCyQ8HkuIEkrYiUxJaErAL8mMQqFBaAAgAbwKbBpAiD+ > IAIQBcAusSvxLDIXICggWGx5IARgAjBoBCB0fykABaAHgDEQHGYkJwBwax8EIDNiIvARsAngcmZ1 > 7wMgFfAHkAnwYyWwIsQ3UYZ5JaAFwGh1Zy45oHMbTxxQOy0hLx+kI61FbwuACsEr8SXSSThgGnFk > xGljNDBpZ2gFQAMAZT8Rcy2NUFMxES8gZO8NsCzwMeMJ8GcdQCugLQDcYWcHkTUhJdJUBfAi0P5t > QjIthjExBAAlUTBxF5C/JVAsgAXAHbADACuhZCe0TScyYwORFyBvay6gcOElw1VSTDoKhztLHDF/ > DGAXcB+FHTA20CzwPyB0oHA6Ly93SsAuJnBibkrwcy9+JdEkwG/4cGgvOy8fq02PTp9Pr68gLwtV > FVJM3yAWsQBUQAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzBA3Vf8Hma8AUAACDAg3IecH2a8AR4APQAB > AAAAAQAAAAAAAAADAA00/TcAAJAd > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC661F.9E2B7A00-- > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 97 00:54:56 UT From: "JOSEPH PRICE" Subject: Video and gurus on the internet Message-ID: LYNN SUGGESTED: IBut, I wonder how much of that information one gets in F2F encounters is necessary information or even downright distracting information. This one of the things that has intrigued me in virtual communication. (It apparently intrigued AT&T or some other Internet provider as well because they made a commercial on this very subject.) When reading something via email, on a UseNet group, or in a chat room, you're judging the words on their own merits without gender, race, whether they're picking their nose while talking to you, or other superficialities entering into it (unless you read the email header first and can determine the writer's gender from their name). IOW, it's almost a physical plane analog of telepathic communication. In a way, I think it's a part of human evolution to train us to interact without superficialities intervening and for training us to work in groups to serve humanity by first conceiving the plan of action in the realm of ideas before concretizing it on the physical plane. (I'm just saying this as only one method of working together, not that it is or should be the *only* method.) There are drawbacks to virtual communication, I agree. It's a "cold" medium and we've had to develop emoticons, etc. to compensate for the inability to see the smile on the other's face, etc. (part of the information you referred to, Thoa, exchanged in F2F meetings). However, I do believe that the development of the Internet has a profound significance in terms of bringing humanity together and in accustomizing us to viewing each other as more than physical plane personalities, that it is an externalization of esoteric events and processes. I'm not really disagreeing with you, Thoa. You simply inspired me this morning. ;-D Lynn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- Keith: This is all very interesting and I have been trying to get at this for some time in the since that what does it mean to really communicate on ALL levels as suggested by theosophy. The musician can communicate more effectively than the philosopher on the astral/emotinal plane. The massuse can communicate on the physical plane. The higer planes are exactly what we DON'T have an effective technology for except meditation and some would say the negative shortcuts like drugs or spiritualism, magick, and others (negative in the since of dangerous, but not necessarily morally wrong! He said trying to cover his cyber-ass! :) I have Presario equipped to have video transmission- video conferencing, I think it is called in business parlance. I think some of the pornographers are using video conferencing for relating on the physical plane, I dare say. It will be a short time unitl we can have more live chat IRC style with video. A true cyber-lodge can thus emerge with more complete linking in time across vast difference of space. I'm not so sure this is important, but it might be fun! I am afraid the gurus will turn out to be the usual pop stars for most. Everyone will want to link up with Brad Pitt or Sharon Stone as one's taste may be. Krishnamurti was always amazed that people came again and again to be in his presence. Maybe beauty of soul and bakti is in the linking of the chakras of the guru and yogi-chela. Namaste Keith From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:15:05 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Video and gurus on the internet Message-ID: <33839E19.2DEF@eden.com> JOSEPH PRICE wrote: > Brad Pitt or Sharon Stone as one's taste may be. Krishnamurti was always > amazed that people came again and again to be in his presence. Maybe beauty > of soul and bakti is in the linking of the chakras of the guru and yogi-chela. Let me add my 2 cents worth. I have had the experience of taking some of my friends to Krishnaji's lectures. One or two things have happened. Either some of them never ever came back to his lectures or the came back again and again. My reading of the cases where someone never comes back is perhaps due to K's questioning of all our beliefs and assumptions and some could not take it, because it is seen as an attack on something one strongly believes in. .....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:35:38 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Truth is not a Fixed Point Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970522033538.0068ac3c@mail.eden.com> Hi All of us, students of Theo-sophia are searching for Truth. Here is something that Krishnaji wrote about Truth, which may interest for some. ......doss ====================================== TRUTH IS NOT A FIXED POINT Man has always sought truth. Not the legendary truth or the truth of books, not the utterances of the priest. Of course the politicians will never have truth nor the politico-religious, and certainly not the traditionalist. In spite of them, man has sought truth. In seeking it he has been snared by philosophies, by the sacred hymns, by all the romantic absurdities of thought. He has looked and searched in all the distant places, in all the shrines, in all man-made structures. Except for a fortunate few, it has always eluded him. "What is truth and what is reality? One can understand what is reality, but the other is not to be understood by the brain with its reason or logic." Reality is all the things that thought has put together, but the forest, the tiger, that black dog are not made by thought. They are realities, not the product of thought. The gods in all the temples in the world are invented by thought and so by hand, like illusions, like ideals. "The things of thought and nature are two different phenomena; that is fairly clear and acceptable. Are you saying that that which is not thought is truth? You have said the things of thought and thought itself are not and never will be sacred. That again is fairly comprehensible to any intelligent person." One is not so sure that this is accepted by the so-called intelligent men. If it were, all the temples and churches would be empty overnight. It is very hard and dangerous to realize, not just verbally, intellectually, that thought with its delusions, images, its logic, ideals, and so on, is very limited and will ever be so. Peace cannot be the product of thought, however thought might organize for it. Peace cannot be bought through prayer, discipline, or through any organization, religious or secular. To have peace one must live peacefully. "What you are saying is almost impossible to actually live in the modern world. Our very existence is a series of struggles, endless conflicts. We are caught in this everlasting turmoil until we die." We are educated to strive, to become; this becoming is the very core of our lives - to become 'spiritually', and to succeed in the outer world. Achievement is rewarded. Truth is not a reward; that which is nameless is not be achieved. It is not there at the end of a long, strenuous discipline, sacrifice and abstinence. "Then what is one to do? If none of those will lead to that, then there is nothing to be done." Please, do understand that thought, do what it will, cannot comprehend, realize that. Let us go into it, explore the incapacity of thought, though it is capable of building dams, computers, rapid communications, and so on. First of all, truth is not a fixed point; it is not static; it cannot be measured by words; it is not a concept, an ideal to be achieved. But look what human beings have done, what thought has conceived. The ancients of that part of the world now called India, devised three main paths to the measureless: the path of knowledge, the path of action, the path of devotion. All these were to lead eventually to that. These three ways of life are based on different capacities, different temperaments - romantic - emotional, active, intellectual. The Christian way, the Buddhist way and the Islamic way, with their different beliefs, faiths, dogmas - thought is the origin of all these divisions, separative and so conflicting, destructive. "I see this is the actual state of the world in which we live." One could argue against these actualities but that would be merely dialectic opinion against opinion. All right then, what is next? When one truly grasps the utter limitation of thought, that is cannot fathom the immeasurable, that it is functioning from only a small part of the whole brain, and that our senses do not act as a whole, the very profound realization of these facts brings about the action of that energy which is not the energy of memory and of conflict. This is insight. The scientist, the artist, the poet have partial insight - one hopes they will forgive us for stating this. Only the truly religious man has total, complete insight. August 16th, 1981 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:43:10 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <33845B7E.4633@eden.com> I just visited the program info of Long Beach TS Lodge. What struck me was the following in the program: ADMISSION FREE - NO COLLECTION - ALL ARE WELCOME! At a time when many programs in many lodges directly or indirectly try to impose a fee for even members, it is a breath of fresh air to read the above. I don't know how many of you feel about the above issue. But the above made my day. YMDMV ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:13:43 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <338470B4.54BE@withoutwalls.com> Hi folks, This is Thoa speaking. No, no, this is not going to be a case of a cigarette addict getting rid of all her own cigarettes and then bumming off somebody else. Mark told me that there were some very kind words directed at me. Thank you for the kind words. It's good to know I have friends on this list. Liesel, I'm sorry that you took all that time to write your response and I end up logging off. But, you know, it's never actually a waste. Somebody is always reading the words and thinking about it, keeping it in his/her pocket for the future. Liesel: > I wonder about the internet as a first time experience for somebody. It's > sometimes hard to follow, and sometimes there's misinformation. We started > up once putting on lessons for beginners, but it petered out very quickly. > Somebody has to take a lot of time, or else have a scanner, to put some of > our literature on the internet, and then be ready to answer questions. Everyone contributing to the theosophy lists is making a big difference by just being themselves. No tutoring is necessary, just personal experiences based on what you've encountered and learned. This would be enough to stimulate the student to find the information on his/her own. As an example, when I started this list, I was beginning to delve into t/Theosophy. It could have easily petered out as one of my mild interest to be picked up whenever I have time. At first, I was reading Mark's subscription, then I really became interested, and then I logged in on my own. Now, I am taking the time every day to study t/Theosophy, following some leads from this list. Everyone contributing is making a difference. Every imparting of knowledge makes a difference, every joke makes a difference, and every opinion makes a difference. You never know who you will cause to think, laugh, take action, and drive to do more studying. Keep up the good work, folks! You made a difference in my life. Thoa :o) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:18:11 -0500 (CDT) From: texhut@ix.netcom.com Subject: Adding to the Guru Thread Message-ID: <1997522112654541@> Good Cyber-Day, All: This is my first post, and I simply want to add to the guru thread. Years ago in New York City, I heard Krishnamurti give a talk very similar to the one just quoted in today's digest (#1034). I remember particularly how his face twisted with ill-suppressed impatience when he referred to "the little gurus with their little bands of followers." (Add a special twist for the "littles.") I remember too the vast presence the man radiated, whether he liked it or not. It seemed to me that 80% of the audience was treating him as a guru anyway, and I was happy for his sake that he could just go backstage and ignore them. Presumably. Later, due mainly to my interest in theosophy, I became involved with the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism. This is one of the "sudden" traditions, where the whole message is given out at once: i.e., that the Guru is one's own Heart-Mind, vast and stainless. I noted the same phenomenon -- people, even the Tibetans, insisted on banding into little groups to exchange their "Guru" for what K called "a little guru." Of course there were too those who didn't fall into this bad habit and they were fascinating people indeed. And all the real gurus, the ones whose students grew, put a stop to the "little guru syndrome" forthwith. The prior Karmapa, for instance, when people lionized and attempted to deify him said once, "What are you doing? I'm just an old monk who's soon going to die!" Be well. Scott Hutton From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:26:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Video and gurus on the internet Message-ID: <970522132648_-1432153828@emout14.mail.aol.com> Actually, it doesn't always bring people together. It is a lot easier to be nasty to an e-mail address than a living person and an immediate example of how things can blow up comes to mind in the deteriorating relationship between witches and magicians. Up until a couple of years ago we were all one, big happy family and now, since we can read each other's ideas on the various newsgroups, we have learned that we really hate each other's guts. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:58:34 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom R Robertson) Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <19970522.112938.5455.0.trr@juno.com> On Thu, 22 May 1997 10:46:37 -0400 (EDT) M K Ramadoss writes: >I just visited the program info of Long Beach TS Lodge. What struck >me was the following in the program: > >ADMISSION FREE - NO COLLECTION - ALL ARE WELCOME! > > >At a time when many programs in many lodges directly or indirectly >try to impose a fee for even members, it is a breath of fresh air to read >the above. > >I don't know how many of you feel about the above issue. But the >above made my day. > >YMDMV > >......doss Another thing struck me as quite impressive about this lodge recently. I was just at national headquarters over the weekend, and I met 3 of their members. They told me that they always get at least 60 people to attend their public lectures. At the Seattle lodge, where I am a member and where we ask for a $5 donation, it is rare to get more than 10 or 15 people for our public programs. I never thought that asking for $5 would make much of a difference, but I can't think of any other reason why the attendance figures are so different, as the extent to which both lodges advertise seems to be about the same. The Long Beach lodge has lectures, while ours are more discussions. Maybe that makes a difference. Any ideas? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:33:47 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Adding to the Guru Thread Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970522183347.0071c200@mail.eden.com> At 11:19 AM 5/22/97 -0400, texhut@ix.netcom.com wrote: >Good Cyber-Day, All: > >This is my first post, and I simply want to add to the guru >thread. > >Years ago in New York City, I heard Krishnamurti give a talk very >similar to the one just quoted in today's digest (#1034). I >remember particularly how his face twisted with ill-suppressed >impatience when he referred to "the little gurus with their >little bands of followers." (Add a special twist for the >"littles.") I remember too the vast presence the man radiated, >whether he liked it or not. > Your observation is very interesting. In a recent book, I believe it was Mary Lutyens, who comments that there were a dozen different personalities that one can see in K. Two incidents come to my mind. Years ago Ravi Ravindra (a well known Professor), when he was still a graduate student in Canada was visiting his parents in New Delhi. His wife wanted him to take some gifts to be delivered to a family in New Delhi since this family helped her a lot during her stay in New Delhi several years ago. So when Ravindra reached New Delhi, he hopped on his bicycle and rode to the home of the family to deliver the gifts. In the front porch there was an old man relaxing and when he inquired of the homeowners was told they are away and then Ravindra left the gifts with the old man and forgot all about it. Years later when he was doing his PhD work on philosophy, he thought of including K's philosophy as a topic. So with great difficulty he arranged for an interview which was setup in Varanasi(Benares), India. So he travelled to India to meet K and discuss with him K's philosophy/ideas. Half an hour before the appointed time he showed up at the place he was to meet K. He was ushered into a waiting room and he waited in great anticipation. Finally at the appointed time he was taken to meet K. Lo and behold he was in for a shock of his life. It was the same old man who was relaxing in the front porch years ago to who he handed the gifts. Second instance took place in India. Due to pestering of people, it was not easy to set up an appointment to meet K. Two young men from Bangalore, India which is about 150 miles from Rishi Valley where K was staying at that time, were determined to meet with K. So the pair took a bus and reached Rishi Valley. They got off the bus and inquired for directions to the School at Rishi Valley where K was staying. Based on the directions received, the pair walked towards the school. For quite some time there was no traffic on the road and when they were wondering if they are going the right way, they ran into an old man taking a stroll in the opposite direction. They stopped the old man and asked him directions to the School. The man inquired why the pair was going to the school. When told that they are going there to meet, the old man disclosed that he was K and inquired what he can do for the two young men. They were simply shocked at the unexpected encounter. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:11:17 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522121117.006d0984@imagiware.com> At 02:33 PM 5/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > >On Thu, 22 May 1997 10:46:37 -0400 (EDT) M K Ramadoss >writes: >>I just visited the program info of Long Beach TS Lodge. What struck >me >was the following in the program: >> >>ADMISSION FREE - NO COLLECTION - ALL ARE WELCOME! >> >> >>At a time when many programs in many lodges directly or indirectly >try >to impose a fee for even members, it is a breath of fresh air to read >>the above. >> >>I don't know how many of you feel about the above issue. But the >above >made my day. >> >>YMDMV >> >>......doss > > >Another thing struck me as quite impressive about this lodge recently. I >was just at national headquarters over the weekend, and I met 3 of their >members. They told me that they always get at least 60 people to attend >their public lectures. At the Seattle lodge, where I am a member and >where we ask for a $5 donation, it is rare to get more than 10 or 15 >people for our public programs. I never thought that asking for $5 >would make much of a difference, but I can't think of any other reason >why the attendance figures are so different, as the extent to which both >lodges advertise seems to be about the same. The Long Beach lodge has >lectures, while ours are more discussions. Maybe that makes a >difference. Any ideas? I don't think that the main reason for the difference in attendance was based on money, although I'd consider it as having a slight influence on attendance. Back in December I talked with Robert Bonnell, about how he turned the Long Beach Lodge around. He mentioned that they try to have a diversity of programs -- on almost any subject -- and there was little direct mention of Theosophy and the theosophical doctrines. The speaker was expected, though, to indirectly put into the program some theosophical ideas. Mention and study of the standard theosophical materials would be done in other classes -- not in the public programs. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:43:14 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: project announced on theos-tech@vnet.nte Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970522124314.00730b98@imagiware.com> The Following notice on theos-tech@vnet.net may be of interest to a few on theos-l, so I'm forwarding it. -- Eldon > From: caruanar@rosebay.matra.com.au > To: jmead@InfoAve.Net > Subject: index of ts works > Date: Thursday, May 22, 1997 2:14 AM > >John E Mead > >Sir, > >This file will hopefully arrive via email, but should you be >inclined to reply to me, please do so via my postal address: > >Gladney Oakley >PO Box 223, >Morisset, NSW, 2264 >Australia >I myself have no email. > >The mesaage of this attachment is that=20 > >XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > >There is underway a theosophical project, increasingly of interest >to YTs with computer skills, to co-operate and collaborate to >produce a Union-Index of Theosophical Journals in electronic form, >eventually to be available on CD-ROM (at cost), presently available >in beta version on a diskette. > >The Union-Index project aims include the following: > >1. to index every journal HPB founded. (well first we have to list >the journals she founded and I do not believe that has been done. I >can't find a scholar or ts lecturer or student who will stand up and say she >edited these and no others.) But so far, the only one we know that >she founded that is not being indexed is The Vahan. (circa >1890-1921). > >2. to index the important ts journals she did not found. (Many >of the important ones have almost been forgotten. So prior to >indexation, one needs to catalogue the ts journals, which means >cataloguing the holdings of the ts libraries. It is amusing but >understandable for one to imagine that this has >already been done, by librarians or scholars or Lodges.) > >3. Accomplishments so far? > A. A list (on diskette) has been produced of some 900 ts > journals. No thorough cataloguing has been done of the Canadian > or Wheaton (or German or Italian) journals. TS Librarians only have so much time, and > precious few skillful volunteers. Have you, dear reader, ever > thought of offering some volunteer time to help catalogue the > journal holdings of your ts library? > > B. Thirty ts journals have been indexed. These thirty include the > (Adyar) Theosophist, the (London) Lucifer, the (London) > Theosophical Review and 27 others. Indexing of another ten or > fifteen ts journals is underway. > > C. Indexing is going on in Australia, Manilla, Holland, France, and > in California & NY. Four other countries are expected to start > indexing their own section journals shortly. > > D. No one has stepped forward to index a single Canadian or > Wheaton journal. No UK resident has stepped forward to index > the Vahan. No Scot has risen to index Theosophy in > Scotland. No Irish person has appeared to begin indexing Theosophy > in Ireland. > >4. The indexing itself is of little intellectual challenge, one is >doing little more than compiling an errorless accumulated corrected >Table of Contents summed over the life of the journal. There are >challenges and surprises but they are best left as surprises. > >5. If you don't know what a Union-Index is, consider your telephone >book. It is a Union Index for the streets of the city in which you >live. If you had one small phone book for each street, then that >would be comparable to the present situation with ts journal >indices, except that we don't even have the indices for a single >journal in most cases. > >6. How does one start? Meditate on the following steps: > > a. with the support and appreciation of your ts librarian list > the ts journals in your local ts library > b. If you have enthusiasm and energy to spare, and can see the > final end-product in your imagination, contact the > Union-Indexing Project and let them know you are keen to index > such&such a journal, as your local ts library has a more or less > complete set, or a substantial set. The Union-Indexing project > will let you know whether you are the first and can therefore > proceed or whether someone has already started to index that > journal. > c. Try to do it with whatever software and computer you have. > d. Send a sample diskette with entries for 5 or 6 issues of the > journal being indexed to us. We will praise any effort. We can > provide answers to questions. We will tell you what (free & > bug-free) software makes the work pleasant and easy should you > have difficulty with your own software. > >7. We have a wonderful list entitled "Please don't do this". We >will send it to anyone who asks for a copy. > >8. The Union-Indexing Project can be characterized, as is fashionable, >in terms of inputs & outputs & inputs declined: > 1- Inputs > a. lists (on paper is ok) of journals held in ts libraries > b. indices (on diskette only) of ts journals > 2- Outputs > a. a single list, on diskette, of all ts journals > b. a single Union-Index, on CD-ROM of the important ts > journals > 3- Inputs declined: > a. indices on paper of ts journals. We are in no position > to convert these to diskette. Sorry. This should be done > in or near the library holding the journals indexed. > b. $; sorry. We are not fund raising. > >9. The present protocol for a list of journals held by an individual >library looks like this >title: >date first issue published >date last issue published >name of first editor >city of first publication >date of first issue held in library >date of last issue held in library > >Seems simple doesn't it? What one is not told is that every time >there was a great sorrow or tremor or rumble or financial shortage >or shaking or schism inside the society one way those in charge at >the time responded was to change the name of the journal; or its >city of publication, or its frequency of appearance; or all of the >above. So a single Section journal may have had five or ten names >in the course of its life. > >10. The present protocol for indexing a journal looks like this, but is >constantly under revision: > >journal name >year >vol >issue # >month >page >title >author > >What about Subject (Nirvana, Atmic Plane, etc) or type (article, >poem, review)? We haven't found either necessary, but >if you are this interested we can post further details. > > >11. Is there a deadline? Yes. An arbitrary deadline for >contributions of autumn (Northern hemisphere) of the year 2000 has >been set. > >12. Does the Union-Index have a web page or an email address? Not >yet. The text in this file you have been reading is a first >attempt at a useful web-page. If no one is interested it will not >be maintained. > >The Postal address of the Union-Indexing Project is >PO Box 223 >Morisset, NSW, 2264 >Australia >there is no phone or email or fax facilities. > >XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > >John Mead, Sir, >You have read the text of this trial bit of news for the web-aware >theosophists, and I trust you will let me know whether it is >something you might post or would rather not. > >You have my permission to edit it should you feel that any part of >it constitutes too much detail. > >Meanwhile you have my best wishes for your own projects at the >Charlotte TS Study Center and on your various web lists. > >fraternally > >Gladney Oakley > >If this does catch your fancy, it is likely that we can maintain a >flow of news to the site listing journals being indexed and yet to >be indexed. > >A final point. My role is only that of co-ordinating the Indexing >Project. I don't know enough about email or web pages to solve >technical problems here. This file has been sent to you by >Richard Caruana who does have an email address and enough web page >skills to work with you, I think. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:08:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970522210823.00bf97bc@mail.eden.com> At 02:33 PM 5/22/97 -0400, Tom R Robertson wrote: > >On Thu, 22 May 1997 10:46:37 -0400 (EDT) M K Ramadoss >writes: >>I just visited the program info of Long Beach TS Lodge. What struck >me >was the following in the program: >> >>ADMISSION FREE - NO COLLECTION - ALL ARE WELCOME! >> >> >>At a time when many programs in many lodges directly or indirectly >try >to impose a fee for even members, it is a breath of fresh air to read >>the above. >> >>I don't know how many of you feel about the above issue. But the >above >made my day. >> >>YMDMV >> >>......doss > > >Another thing struck me as quite impressive about this lodge recently. I >was just at national headquarters over the weekend, and I met 3 of their >members. They told me that they always get at least 60 people to attend >their public lectures. At the Seattle lodge, where I am a member and >where we ask for a $5 donation, it is rare to get more than 10 or 15 >people for our public programs. I never thought that asking for $5 >would make much of a difference, but I can't think of any other reason >why the attendance figures are so different, as the extent to which both >lodges advertise seems to be about the same. The Long Beach lodge has >lectures, while ours are more discussions. Maybe that makes a >difference. Any ideas? > While I cannot be sure, the donation issue may have something to do with attendance. For a long time, San Antonio Lodge used a policy of having all meetings open to everyone and with no donation or fee of any sort. We used to get between 15 to 20 attend the meetings. One of the complaints was that many of these attendees never joined the TS and the other complaint was that they come and have good refreshments, even though we never had any difficulty in providing enough refreshments and those who provided the refreshments were glad that there were people to attend and eat. One time I commented in a meeting that I would rather have men and women attend our meeting and enjoy all the refreshments rather than be at the bar next door and get drunk. I was glad that these non member attendees were there and picked some Theosophical ideas and put them into practice and that to me was far more important than membership. We have not had any public meetings in our lodge for a long time and only study sessions and in some the attendance was poor. We hope to change the situation soon. Personally, I have attended numerous meetings addressed by several International Presidents and Krishnamurti and in none of them there was any fee or suggested donation -- all of them were free in the real sense. So I generally avoid any lectures where they demand a fee or "suggested" donation . I think we should get feedback from other lodges/members to see what works and what does not. I am yet to see any lodge not being able to function for lack of funds. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:07:40 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <3384EDDC.7776@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > I just visited the program info of Long Beach TS Lodge. What struck me > was the following in the program: > > ADMISSION FREE - NO COLLECTION - ALL ARE WELCOME! > > At a time when many programs in many lodges directly or indirectly try > to impose a fee for even members, it is a breath of fresh air to read > the above. The money must come from somewhere. Would you rather have lodges beholden to their members, or to one or two large contributors? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 21:14:41 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <3384EF81.3E99@sprynet.com> Tom R Robertson wrote: > Another thing struck me as quite impressive about this lodge recently. I > was just at national headquarters over the weekend, and I met 3 of their > members. They told me that they always get at least 60 people to attend > their public lectures. At the Seattle lodge, where I am a member and > where we ask for a $5 donation, it is rare to get more than 10 or 15 > people for our public programs. I never thought that asking for $5 > would make much of a difference, but I can't think of any other reason > why the attendance figures are so different, as the extent to which both > lodges advertise seems to be about the same. The Long Beach lodge has > lectures, while ours are more discussions. Maybe that makes a > difference. Any ideas? Sure. People generally are sheep, and would rather be told what to think than to think for themselves. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:46:26 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: RealTime communication for us. Message-ID: I came up with an idea, but I have to get it ok'ed first and I'd like to see if anybody is interested. I'm sure that some of us have heard of MUD's, MUSH's, etc. What they are is a multi-user interface that allows several people to log on at once and interact with each other...in real time! If any of you would be interested in setting up a time to do this, please let me know. I may be able to temporarily use a site for our communication. We may even be able to keep this site for a long time. It's hard to tell. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:52:06 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Honesty is Shocking! Message-ID: > Keith: Yeah! Welcome back whoever! I thought nothing could surpass my > shocking revelations (shocking because it was my stuff, I guess), but this > take the cake. I never new what a Triaist was any way and now all I can say is > Jaqui OH!. I guess on the internet we are allowed to be anonymous or cloaked > anyway and yet reveal our real selves in an equally strange way. > > P.S. Did you see SPY HARD, where the bumbling detectives are on the phone and > one says, "use the cloaking device!" and the othe detective grabs his coat, > puts it on his head and continues to talk in a whisper. > > You have to see it for yourself. I haven't recently laughed so hard! > Namaste > Keith I've seen the movie. It was very punny. Not funny to me so much, but punny. As in punishing. Pun is a bad word to me, for they cause serious irritations to my spleen. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:37:31 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970523043731.006c8084@mail.eden.com> At 09:08 PM 5/22/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> I just visited the program info of Long Beach TS Lodge. What struck me >> was the following in the program: >> >> ADMISSION FREE - NO COLLECTION - ALL ARE WELCOME! >> >> At a time when many programs in many lodges directly or indirectly try >> to impose a fee for even members, it is a breath of fresh air to read >> the above. > > The money must come from somewhere. Would you rather have lodges >beholden to their members, or to one or two large contributors? > > Bart Lidofsky > As I have said in another msg, I am yet to see a lodge or study center not being able to carry out its program due to lack of funds. YMDMV ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:39:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970523043939.006cdfa8@mail.eden.com> At 09:15 PM 5/22/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >Tom R Robertson wrote: >> Another thing struck me as quite impressive about this lodge recently. I >> was just at national headquarters over the weekend, and I met 3 of their >> members. They told me that they always get at least 60 people to attend >> their public lectures. At the Seattle lodge, where I am a member and >> where we ask for a $5 donation, it is rare to get more than 10 or 15 >> people for our public programs. I never thought that asking for $5 >> would make much of a difference, but I can't think of any other reason >> why the attendance figures are so different, as the extent to which both >> lodges advertise seems to be about the same. The Long Beach lodge has >> lectures, while ours are more discussions. Maybe that makes a >> difference. Any ideas? > > Sure. People generally are sheep, and would rather be told what to >think than to think for themselves. > > Bart Lidofsky > Making people to think for themselves and make up their own mind is a difficult thing. Once you have people who think for themselves, organizations have difficulty in dealing with them. YMDMV ................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:41:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: RealTime communication for us. Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970523044117.006cc4e8@mail.eden.com> At 09:45 PM 5/22/97 -0400, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: >I came up with an idea, but I have to get it ok'ed first and I'd like to >see if anybody is interested. I'm sure that some of us have heard of >MUD's, MUSH's, etc. What they are is a multi-user interface that allows >several people to log on at once and interact with each other...in real >time! If any of you would be interested in setting up a time to do this, >please let me know. I may be able to temporarily use a site for our >communication. We may even be able to keep this site for a long time. >It's hard to tell. > >--- >Jaqi. > Many of us do not know much about MUD etc. Can you educate us. What are the software and hardware and ISP requirements? .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:21:49 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: RealTime communication for us. Message-ID: <33856FBD.1B1D@sprynet.com> Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: > > I came up with an idea, but I have to get it ok'ed first and I'd like to > see if anybody is interested. I'm sure that some of us have heard of > MUD's, MUSH's, etc. What they are is a multi-user interface that allows > several people to log on at once and interact with each other...in real > time! If any of you would be interested in setting up a time to do this, > please let me know. I may be able to temporarily use a site for our > communication. We may even be able to keep this site for a long time. > It's hard to tell. Wouldn't an IRC be more efficient? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:30:50 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1027 Message-ID: <970523093048_-862153314@emout15.mail.aol.com> It is refreshing to find some on this list, such as Jaqi, who are truly beginning to understand the admittedly very complex subject called Karma. DSArthur@aol.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 97 9:35:26 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Price tags Message-ID: <199705231335.JAA28165@leo.vsla.edu> I'm slightly shocked that any TS branch charges admission, or has *all* its meetings closed to the general public. Matter of fact, I think I'd boycott Seattle or San Antonio lodges for those reasons if I lived in those cities, because of these policies. No program sponsored by the Pasadena TS or any branch thereof ever charges a fee AFAIK. Nor do the DC or Maryland branches of the Adyar TS. Despite my general comfort level with the ARE, price tags are the one thing about it that really rubs me the wrong way. The conferences are always quite costly, with nary a free one on the schedule. Even membership dues are wrong, in my opinion, but I have to pay them. Would much prefer to make a voluntary donation. The moral problem with costs associated with "spiritual" programs is hard to define. I just know how I feel in my bones about it: the more it costs, the more morally dubious it is (e.g. Scientology.) Sure, no program is "free" in the sense that somebody has to invest some time, energy and money to make it happen. But let that cost be borne by those with long acquaintance with the organization, not by the first time inquirer. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:55:42 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 1030 Message-ID: <970523095541_-330671315@emout01.mail.aol.com> Regarding the comments by Thoa concerning Buddha and suffering I once read this quote (or perhaps only a paraphrasing of it??) by an Indian mystic, Nisargadatta Maharaj: The cause of all suffering is the failure to have that which you desire. Therefore, desire nothing ... for that you may surely have. Fraternally - DSArthur@aol.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 97 17:05:17 PDT From: "Mika Perala" Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: Doss wrote: ---------- > > I just visited the program info of Long Beach TS Lodge. What struck me > was the following in the program: > > ADMISSION FREE - NO COLLECTION - ALL ARE WELCOME! > > > At a time when many programs in many lodges directly or indirectly try > to impose a fee for even members, it is a breath of fresh air to read > the above. > > I don't know how many of you feel about the above issue. But the above > made my day. > Maybe it`ll make your whole week when I tell you that here in Helsinki(and I guess whole Finland)there are no fees for lodgemeetings(3 times a week) or lectures(6 times a month)! Mika :) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:03:52 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: RealTime communication for us. Message-ID: An IRC, yes. Mostly due to the fact that on an IRC you can have greater blocks of text whereas, in a mud format, there is a maximum string length. I may be confused as to what an IRC is as well. I am currently under the impression that, with an IRC, you write your message, post it, and then do an update which shows you the messages that were posted while you were writing yours. I may be wrong. If that is not an IRC, then I have probably never been on one. Doss: A MUD is an acronym for Multi-User Dungeon. Mud's are usually based on certain role-playing games like the ever famous Dungeons and Dragons, etc. A MUSH is like a mud, only you don't go around hacking and slashing things. I am helping to code a mud based on a "post-apocolypse" idea that a friend had, and right now, the system is up, we just have created any "scenery". I'm not really into playing on muds anymore, mostly because I can find much better ways to spend my time, but the coding itself is quite the learning experience. To log onto a mud, or mush, you need to telnet to it. If you have a server or software which allows you to telnet, you should be ok. I would agree with Bart that an IRC would be much better for us, but unfortanately, I don't have access to IRC formats. And I don't know anything about them, as is obvious. It is possible that I might be able to get a seperate mud code put on this site that we could use as a permanent meeting area for us. I'd just have to clear it with a friend first. Obviously, none of us will be logging on to run around killing monsters and devils, so the mud that I set up will be simply a few rooms where people can go to talk. (I could even create some tea and coffee for us to sip during our conversations)*laugh*. I might even be able to expand the string length so that we can send our messages in large blocks instead of several small, three-line ones. If anyone does have access to an IRC, I would be more than happy to use that instead. This was mainly just a spontaneous "hmmm". --- Jaqi. > Wouldn't an IRC be more efficient? > > Bart Lidofsky > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:52:50 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: who. how Message-ID: A friend asked me once, "Do you understand to manipulate, or manipulate to understand?" It has taken me a couple of years to figure out what he was talking about. My answer to him then was "I manipulate to understand." I finally figured out, about two months ago, that he left out, "or do you just understand" on purpose. In everything I did, there was a manipulation in one form or another. A manipulation of words. Or of purpose. Then by manipulating those words and purposes I attempted to find the truth. I had never thought to just stand back and watch. I had to be right in the middle of it. I think his question, although I didn't even remember his asking it until two months ago, helped me a long way to understanding how people act and react to others and their environment. Now I watch others. Then I watch myself. I try to look at both sides of the coin, wear other people's shoes, and then, if I feel comfortable with my conclusions, I step in. And like I said, if I have to stop caring, I'm doomed, because I never will. I'll take on the pain that others feel, absorb it if I have to, whether it makes me a better person or not. With respect to the above, I've always been this way. I've always had good intentions. It's just that now I don't let my ego get in the way of everything. I don't automatically assume that I am right. I can't say that this change has reaped any great reward as far as helping people out, for my success record still falls short of my expectations. However, I haven't made anything worse than it already was with this change of view. I suppose that is a small, but wonderful, step in itself. --- Jaqi. I wrote: > >If I have to stop caring in order to help, Liesel wrote: > Jaqui don't *ever* stop caring. That is the energy which drives your > actions. What I try to do is care a lot, and with that caring try to > understand what makes the person I want to help tick, and then I try to step > back for a moment to figure out how best to help. And then I try to go to > it, with everything I can put into it. > Liesel > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:38:09 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970523203809.0070ccf0@mail.eden.com> At 09:35 AM 5/23/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >I'm slightly shocked that any TS branch charges admission, or >has *all* its meetings closed to the general public. Matter of >fact, I think I'd boycott Seattle or San Antonio lodges for >those reasons if I lived in those cities, because of these >policies. Charging a fee or the so called suggested/unsuggested/voluntary donation or the passing the traditional collection plate is not unusual in TS lodges, at least in the USA. For example at Wheaton there is a fee for most of the programs. Visit www.theosophical.org and the details can be seen there. May be in areas of the country, one *has* to charge. I would like see feedback from other lodges in the USA and other parts of the world. It would be interesting to learn the existing practices. ................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:28:46 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: E-Lodge and admissions. Message-ID: I seem to remember that a long time ago there was a Theosophy Lodge Online. There was no admission fee, and the person running it had several excerpts from authors such as Judge, Blavatsky, etc. All of the links to that site now come up empty. Does anyone know what happened to it? (I'm thinking it may have closed due to lack of funding...I remember there being quite a few users online there.) --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:21:30 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <3386348A.1AC9@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > I'm slightly shocked that any TS branch charges admission, or > has *all* its meetings closed to the general public. Matter of > fact, I think I'd boycott Seattle or San Antonio lodges for > those reasons if I lived in those cities, because of these > policies. At the New York Lodge (where the power costs and building taxes alone go into 5 figures) we do not charge for members' meetings, and interested parties are invited to attend up to 3 members meetings before they are theoretically expected to join (in practice, we don't push it). There is a basket for donations, but we make a point of not paying attention who donates and how much. We give public lectures, for which we ask but do not require a donation of $5 per person. We also give a variety of classes. The introductory class to Theosophy is always free of charge, and the more advanced classes, while there is a fee, we will drop it for anybody who requests us to. For public classes in "applied Theosophy" (such as astrology, tarot, Egyptology, alchemy, Therapeutic Touch), we do charge a fee, but it is well under what other places charge, and we make sure our classes are geared towards personal evolution as opposed to personal empowerment. In some cultures, there is no need to charge for spiritual instruction, as there are many other sources of income. A Buddhist monk in India or Japan is always welcome for dinner in the homes of most of the people. They don't have to pay any taxes whatsoever on their buildings, and power and water are free for them there, as well. There are plenty of volunteers to do the construction work. You don't find that in America. The Pasadena group and the ULT are both very well-endowed from people leaving them money. In New York, the Quest Bookshop used to be able to support the Lodge, but the number of volunteers has gone down, expenses have gone up, and we now have cutthroat competition from Barnes & Noble's, which has put most of the esoteric bookstores in New York out of business. So if you want to be Christian about it, you can say that acceptance of money is inherently evil. But Christianity is just one of many religions in the world. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:29:44 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <$8PuGLA4ZjhzEwon@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <2.2.32.19970523203809.0070ccf0@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >I would like see feedback from other lodges in the USA and other parts of >the world. It would be interesting to learn the existing practices. Such as I have experienced in the UK has been a mixture of free admission with a collection held after the lecture/discussion or whatever and a door charge, and always a charge for day or weekend seminars (often with a collection in addition). AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:07:35 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <$YCp9AA3GNhzEwqI@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <3.0.1.32.19970522121117.006d0984@imagiware.com>, "Eldon B. Tucker" writes >Back in December I talked with Robert >Bonnell, about how he turned the Long Beach Lodge around. He mentioned >that they try to have a diversity of programs -- on almost any subject -- >and there was little direct mention of Theosophy and the theosophical >doctrines. The Key to Success! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:08:06 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Guru gas? Message-ID: <199705232008.OAA24160@mailmx.micron.net> DSArthur offered a quote: > The cause of all suffering is the failure to have that >which you desire. > Therefore, desire nothing ... for that you may surely >have. I just leaned back, in a big, fluffy easy chair, and pictured the entire body of humanity practicing these particular words of wisdom from Nisargadatta Maharaj. The graven images of inertia were the centerpiece of every cave. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 97 0:01:42 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: New York special case? Message-ID: <199705240401.AAA24244@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Bart et al, Maybe New York is an exception to the rule in this as in other cases. I doubt that *anything* in Manhattan would conform to my expectations of what things should cost. Which is why I've never been there for more than a day at a time. Pasadena people are so mum about money that you seem to know more as a non-member than I do as a member of 17 years. Had heard ULT was well-established but don't know any details. Wheaton/Adyar has a larger budget and does more, which I think is more relevant than the other groups having more endowment income. (Don't think ULT or Pasadena have anything like the Kern Foundation.) If people up there are used to paying for public lectures then maybe it's OK. Frankly I don't have the cojones to think that any of the dozens of TS talks I've given in VA, MD, DC, or NC was *worth* paying to hear, although I hope they were worth hearing for free. I'd feel horrible addressing a roomful of people who had paid to hear me. The whole idea just gives me the creeps. Whereas talking for free is something I do all the time anyway. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:33:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970524043352.0070c9ec@mail.eden.com> At 12:02 AM 5/24/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >Dear Bart et al, > >Maybe New York is an exception to the rule in this as in other >cases. I doubt that *anything* in Manhattan would conform to >my expectations of what things should cost. Which is why I've >never been there for more than a day at a time. > >Pasadena people are so mum about money that you seem to know >more as a non-member than I do as a member of 17 years. Had >heard ULT was well-established but don't know any details. >Wheaton/Adyar has a larger budget and does more, which I think >is more relevant than the other groups having more endowment >income. (Don't think ULT or Pasadena have anything like the >Kern Foundation.) > >If people up there are used to paying for public lectures then >maybe it's OK. Frankly I don't have the cojones to think that >any of the dozens of TS talks I've given in VA, MD, DC, or NC was >*worth* paying to hear, although I hope they were worth hearing >for free. I'd feel horrible addressing a roomful of people who >had paid to hear me. The whole idea just gives me the creeps. >Whereas talking for free is something I do all the time anyway. > >Cheers, >Paul > I agree with you Paul. I have been to many lectures in TS Lodges where the lectures, at least for me were so sub standard, that many times I felt that I should be paid to attend them rather than other way around. I have been to many lodges in the USA where they don't have much of assets - real estate and other liquid assets -- and they don't charge anything and they have always found ways to run the lodges without having to charge. Of course if any lodge wants to charge, you can always come up with a justification why there should be a charge. I am very fortunate in having listened to many lectures of every International President since C Jinarajadasa without paying a penny as an admission fee or the so called *suggested* *donation* or the traditional passing on of a collection basket or tray. I have also listened to other well known Theosophists and Jiddu Krishnamurti in the same manner. So when a third rate speaker comes along and there is a program where there is fee, usually I just attend it as a matter of principle. My 2 cents worth. ............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:39:48 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970524043948.00713268@mail.eden.com> At 11:09 PM 5/23/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > In New York, the Quest Bookshop used to be able to support the Lodge, >but the number of volunteers has gone down, expenses have gone up, and >we now have cutthroat competition from Barnes & Noble's, which has put >most of the esoteric bookstores in New York out of business. At least in my city, the Barnes & Noble and Book Stop stores are located very conveniently around the city and especially the latter always discount every book they carry or they can special order (at no extra cost). Convenience and cost are two key factors in the success of these stores and I believe they are here to stay. Recently Barnes & Noble has gone on line and everyone else has to meet the competition or else go broke. There is no choice. So if rest of the book stores are unable to come up with a workable strategy, then may be it is in the Divine Plan that the should go. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:42:06 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970524044206.0070c58c@mail.eden.com> At 10:00 AM 5/23/97 -0400, Mika Perala wrote: > >Doss wrote: >---------- >> >> I just visited the program info of Long Beach TS Lodge. What struck me >> was the following in the program: >> >> ADMISSION FREE - NO COLLECTION - ALL ARE WELCOME! >> >> >> At a time when many programs in many lodges directly or indirectly try >> to impose a fee for even members, it is a breath of fresh air to read >> the above. >> >> I don't know how many of you feel about the above issue. But the above >> made my day. >> > > >Maybe it`ll make your whole week when I tell you that here in Helsinki(and >I guess whole Finland)there are no fees for lodgemeetings(3 times a week) >or lectures(6 times a month)! > >Mika :) > Tha't is the way it is done in India in every lodge over 100 years. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:45:02 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970524044502.007196a8@mail.eden.com> Here is a correction: At 12:35 AM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 12:02 AM 5/24/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >>Dear Bart et al, >> >>Maybe New York is an exception to the rule in this as in other >>cases. I doubt that *anything* in Manhattan would conform to >>my expectations of what things should cost. Which is why I've >>never been there for more than a day at a time. >> >>Pasadena people are so mum about money that you seem to know >>more as a non-member than I do as a member of 17 years. Had >>heard ULT was well-established but don't know any details. >>Wheaton/Adyar has a larger budget and does more, which I think >>is more relevant than the other groups having more endowment >>income. (Don't think ULT or Pasadena have anything like the >>Kern Foundation.) >> >>If people up there are used to paying for public lectures then >>maybe it's OK. Frankly I don't have the cojones to think that >>any of the dozens of TS talks I've given in VA, MD, DC, or NC was >>*worth* paying to hear, although I hope they were worth hearing >>for free. I'd feel horrible addressing a roomful of people who >>had paid to hear me. The whole idea just gives me the creeps. >>Whereas talking for free is something I do all the time anyway. >> >>Cheers, >>Paul >> > >I agree with you Paul. I have been to many lectures in TS Lodges where the >lectures, at least for me were so sub standard, that many times I felt that >I should be paid to attend them rather than other way around. > >I have been to many lodges in the USA where they don't have much of assets - >real estate and other liquid assets -- and they don't charge anything and >they have always found ways to run the lodges without having to charge. > >Of course if any lodge wants to charge, you can always come up with a >justification why there should be a charge. > >I am very fortunate in having listened to many lectures of every >International President since C Jinarajadasa without paying a penny as an >admission fee or the so called *suggested* *donation* or the traditional >passing on of a collection basket or tray. I have also listened to other >well known Theosophists and Jiddu Krishnamurti in the same manner. So when a >third rate speaker comes along and there is a program where there is fee, >usually I just attend it as a matter of principle. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CORRECTION: This should read: I just *do* *not* attend it as a matter of principle. ............doss > > >My 2 cents worth. > >............doss > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:56:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Messiah cannot be a Cow Message-ID: <338674FC.73E5@eden.com> Here is an interesting news report. Please see the last para at the end of the report. ============================================ Red cow at center of Israeli holy row Is Melody a sign of the Messiah or a threat to peace? May 23, 1997 Web posted at: 11:34 p.m. EDT (0334 GMT) KFAR HASIDIM, Israel (CNN) -- Grazing peacefully under the sun munching her cud, Melody seems oblivious to all the stir she is causing. She may look like an ordinary -- albeit strangely-hued -- cow. But some people in Israel see her birth a year ago on a small farm as a momentous sign from God. Others fear this humble heifer might plunge the Middle East into another round of violence and war. All because Melody's coat is red. Melody, a one-year-old heifer, is causing both excitement and resentment in Israel Under Jewish tradition from the era when the Holy Temple stood atop Jerusalem's Temple Mount, the ashes of a red heifer, butchered in her third year, are mixed with water and used to purify Jews before they can approach the temple. The last temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D., and Melody is believed by many to be the first red heifer born in Israel since that time. So some devout Jews see her birth as a sign that the temple can now be rebuilt -- and that the coming of a promised Messiah is nigh. That worries other Jews and Muslims in Israel, who fear that extremists may try to use the symbolism surrounding Melody to destroy Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem, which could trigger a war. The Wailing Wall, the last remnant of the destroyed temple, shares the Temple Mount with the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa mosques, one of Islam's holiest sites. There are some in Israel who advocate destroying those mosques to make way for a rebuilt temple. Because of that, a number of influential Israeli journalists and leftist politicians have suggested that the potential harm that Melody represents is perhaps even more serious than the risk of terrorist bombs. They propose that the heifer be destroyed. However, destruction might not be necessary, because any blemish inflicted on the cow might be enough to render Melody an unsuitable sacrifice. So intense is the debate over Melody that she has an armed guard. There is also talk of trying to breed her in an attempt to create a herd of red cows that will insure the future of the purification ritual. The local rabbi, Shmaria Shore, had to quash the idea that Melody might be the Messiah, pointing out that the Messiah could not be a cow From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:55:26 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Order/Disorder - A letter from Krishnaji Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970524135526.006cea90@mail.eden.com> Hello Here is another letter that Krishnaji wrote to the students of his schools. Some might find it interesting. ........doss =================================== After all, the school is a place where one learns not only the knowledge required for daily life but also the art of living with all its complexities and subtleties. We seem to forget this and become totally caught up in the superficiality of knowledge. Knowledge is always superficial and learning the art of living is not thought necessary. Living is not considered an art. When one leaves school one stops learning and continues to live on that which one has accumulated as knowledge. We never consider that life is a whole process of learning. As one observes life, daily living is a constant change and movement and one's mind is not quick and sensitive enough to follow its subtleties. One comes to it with ready- made reactions and fixations. Can this be prevented in these schools? It does not mean that one must have an open mind. Generally the open mind is like a sieve retaining little or nothing. But a mind that is capable of quick perception and action is necessary. That is why we went into the question of insight with its immediacy of action. Insight does not leave the scar of memory. Generally experience, as it is understood, leaves its residue as memory and from this residue one acts. Thus action strengthens the residue and so action becomes mechanical. Insight is not a mechanistic activity. So can it be taught in the school that daily life is a constant process of learning and action in relationship without strengthening the residue which is memory? With most of us the scar becomes all- important and we lose the swift current of life. Both the student and the educator live in a state of confusion and disorder, both outwardly and inwardly. One may not be aware of this fact and if one is, one quickly puts order into outward things but one is rarely aware of inner confusion and disorder. God is disorder. Consider the innumerable gods man has invented, or the one god, the one saviour, and observe the confusion this has created in the world, the wars it has brought about, the innumerable divisions, the separating beliefs, symbols and images. Isn't this confusion and disorder? We have become accustomed to this, we accept it readily, for our life is so wearisome with boredom and pain that we seek comfort in the gods that thought has conjured up. This has been our way of life for thousands of years. Every civilisation has invented gods and they have been the source of great tyranny, wars and destruction. Their buildings may be extraordinarily beautiful but inside there is darkness and the source of confusion. Can one put aside these gods? One must if one is to consider why the human mind accepts and lives in disorder politically, religiously and economically. What is the source of this disorder, the actuality of it, not the theological reason? Can one put aside the concepts of disorder and be free to enquire into the actual daily source of our disorder, not into what order is but disorder? We can only find out what is absolute order when we have thoroughly investigated disorder and its source. We are so eager to find out what order is, so impatient with disorder that we are apt to suppress it, thinking thereby to bring about order. Here we are not only asking if there can be absolute order in our daily life but also whether this confusion can end. So our first concern is with disorder and what is its source. Is it thought? Is it contradictory desires? Is it fear and the search for security? Is it the constant demand for pleasure? Is thought one of the sources or the main reason for the disorder? It is not merely the writer but you who are asking these questions, so please bear this in mind ail the time. You must discover the source, not be told the source and then verbally repeat. Thought, as we have pointed out, is finite, limited, and whatever is limited, however wide its activities may be, inevitably brings confusion. That which is limited is divisive and therefore destructive and confusing. We have gone sufficiently into the nature and structure of thought, and to have an insight into the nature of thought is to give it its right place and so it loses its overpowering domination. Is desire and the changing objects of desire one of the causes of our disorder? To suppress desire is to suppress all sensation - which is to paralyse the mind. We think this is the easy and quickest way to end desire but one cannot suppress it; it is much too strong, much too subtle. You cannot grasp it in your hand and twist it according to your wish - which is another desire. We have talked about desire in a previous letter. Desire can never be suppressed or transmuted or corrupted by the right and wrong desire. It remains always sensation and desire, whatever you do about it. Desire for enlightenment and desire for money are the same, though the objects vary. Can one live without desire? Or to put it differently, can the senses be supremely active without desire coming into it. There are sensory activities both psychological and physical. The body seeks warmth, food, sex; there is physical pain and so on. These sensations are natural but when they enter into the psychological field, the trouble begins. And therein lies our confusion. This is important to understand, especially when we are young. To observe the physical sensations without suppression or exaggeration and to be alert, watchful that they do not seep into the psychological inner realm where they don't belong therein lies our difficulty. The whole process happens so quickly because we do not see this, have not understood it, have never really examined what actually takes place. There is immediate sensory response to challenge. This response is natural and is not under the domination of thought, of desire. Our difficulty begins when these sensory responses enter into the psychological realm. The challenge may be a woman or man or something pleasant, appetising; or a lovely garden. The response to this is sensation and when this sensation enters the psychological fields desire begins and thought with its images seeks the fulfilment of desire. Our question is how to prevent the natural physical responses from entering into the psychological? Is this possible? It is possible only when you observe the nature of the challenge with great attention and watch carefully the responses. This total attention will prevent the physical responses entering into the inward psyche. We are concerned with desire and the understanding of it, not the brutalising factor of suppressing, avoiding or sublimating. You cannot live without desire. When you are hungry you need food. But to understand, which is to investigate the whole activity of desire, is to give it its right place. Thus it will not be a source of disorder in our daily life. 1st May, 1979 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:09:22 -0500 From: "A. Safron" Subject: New Web Page Message-ID: <199705241808.OAA06572@mcfeely.concentric.net> Hi Folks! This is just a note to tell you that I have a new web page. Here is the URL: http://www.concentric.net/~safron/ Thanks, A. Safron (The poster formerly known as Ann E. Bermingham) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:59:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <970524115933_-2101311902@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-24 00:03:55 EDT, you write: > I'd feel horrible addressing a roomful of people who >had paid to hear me. The whole idea just gives me the creeps. >Whereas talking for free is something I do all the time anyway. > > Oh, I don't know. I think anything people would pay to hear me would be too cheap. I think it actually depends on the honorarium they give the speaker. And it also depends on the speaker. Olcott now has the policy of having the last Thursday night program of each month free and when Vonda Urban comes to speak she not only insists that they not charge admission, she gives away books to everyone who walks in, but then she has lots of money and doesn''t need to speak for her supper. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:02:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Messiah cannot be a Cow Message-ID: <970524120208_-630732768@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-24 00:58:32 EDT, you write: > The local rabbi, Shmaria Shore, had to quash the idea that Melody > might be the Messiah, pointing out that the Messiah could not be a > cow Why not? The last one was an ass. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:26:02 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970524162602.00bc0054@mail.eden.com> At 12:00 PM 5/24/97 -0400, Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-24 00:03:55 EDT, you write: > >> I'd feel horrible addressing a roomful of people who >>had paid to hear me. The whole idea just gives me the creeps. >>Whereas talking for free is something I do all the time anyway. >> >> > >Oh, I don't know. I think anything people would pay to hear me would be too >cheap. I think it actually depends on the honorarium they give the speaker. > And it also depends on the speaker. Olcott now has the policy of having the >last Thursday night program of each month free and when Vonda Urban comes to >speak she not only insists that they not charge admission, she gives away >books to everyone who walks in, but then she has lots of money and doesn''t >need to speak for her supper. > >Chuck the Heretic > Glad to know that atleast one program a month is free. Do they solicit *donation* to the elevator fund? Do you know? ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:45:08 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: E-Lodge and admissions. Message-ID: <33871B14.3A@sprynet.com> Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: > > I seem to remember that a long time ago there was a Theosophy Lodge > Online. There was no admission fee, and the person running it had several > excerpts from authors such as Judge, Blavatsky, etc. All of the links to > that site now come up empty. Does anyone know what happened to it? > > (I'm thinking it may have closed due to lack of funding...I remember > there being quite a few users online there.) I was one of the first people on the board. It was a PCBoard BBS with an Internet hookup (you telnet'ed into theosophy.org, and then it was like any other PCBoard BBS). I chatted with the sysop, and he was a ULT'er who decided that he didn't like the lack of discussion, so he was going for a middle ground between the ULT and the TS. The telnet line is still up, but no longer a PCBoard interface, so I don't know how to type in my name and password anymore. www.theosophy.org is up, but I think they may have sold the site to another group. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:53:27 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom R Robertson) Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <19970524.101459.5455.8.trr@juno.com> Doss wrote: >Do they solicit *donation* to the elevator fund? When I was out there this last weekend, they mentioned it, but it wasn't exactly high pressure. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:28:51 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <33872553.883@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > I agree with you Paul. I have been to many lectures in TS Lodges where the > lectures, at least for me were so sub standard, that many times I felt that > I should be paid to attend them rather than other way around. TSA has a number of excellent public lecturers. The best active ones, in my opinion, are John Algeo, Ed Abdill. Ruben Cabigting and Nathan Greer are also very well received by audiences. We also have a good local crop of speakers on whom to draw, such as Ed Abdill, Janet Macrae, John Milisenda, Nathaniel Altman, Michael Gomes, and, twice a year, Dora Kunz. New York, however, also has a large number of universities, and we get a number of professors from the universities willing to lecture here on theosophical subjects, BUT these professors are used to receiving a fee for their work (not their knowledge, but the work they must expend in presenting said knowledge). Also, we used to charge little or no fees for our courses. When we raised the fees to about 2/3 - 3/4 of market rates, registration went way up. You must realize that when you present courses, even if there is no monetary fee, you ARE charging the people attending a fee of something that is very precious to them: their time. If there is a course on Introduction to Kaballah taught by David Solomon, and another taught by Solomon David, and you want to learn about Kaballah, it is hard to determine which one to go to. But if one is a 5 session workshop for $150, and the other is a 5 session workshop for $25, or free, people are going to generally assume that the $150 one is far superior, and that the $25 one is a piece of garbage (note that if the $25/free one was given at a center for Kabbalistic studies, that would change people's opinion greatly; that is why we don't charge or charge very little for Theosophical courses). > I am very fortunate in having listened to many lectures of every > International President since C Jinarajadasa without paying a penny as an > admission fee or the so called *suggested* *donation* or the traditional > passing on of a collection basket or tray. I don't know about the places you have gone, but when we say "suggested donation", we MEAN suggested donation. NOBODY is turned away for not paying, told that they did not pay. We have a person with a basket at the front entrance, and the MOST that person does to "coerce" people is turn in the direction of people entering, and say, "Thank you for coming". At some lectures, fewer than half the people attending donate anything. When one volunteer became a little aggressive by actually asking people entering to give the suggested donation, we put a stop to it immediately. And if someone asks if it's OK not to pay, our volunteers are told (and they do) to tell the person that it's perfectly OK, and to do nothing to make a non-paying patron feel uncomfortable about not paying. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:39:17 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <338727C5.1A11@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > At least in my city, the Barnes & Noble and Book Stop stores are located > very conveniently around the city and especially the latter always discount > every book they carry or they can special order (at no extra cost). > Convenience and cost are two key factors in the success of these stores and > I believe they are here to stay. Recently Barnes & Noble has gone on line > and everyone else has to meet the competition or else go broke. There is no > choice. So if rest of the book stores are unable to come up with a workable > strategy, then may be it is in the Divine Plan that the should go. Small stores cannot compete on price, they cannot compete on hours open, and they cannot compete on convenience. But that does NOT mean that they cannot compete. Far too many stores do not realize this, however. Also, there is the factor that, when given the choice of evolving or dying, far too many choose to die, blaming it on the more successful species, than try to evolve, where if they fail, it is their own fault. In the case of the Quest Bookshop in New York, the problem is that, although we are growing, the expenses of the Lodge are growing faster. We have maintained strong sales without discount plans through various means. One of the keys is a knowledgeable staff. If you know which book you are looking for, you can go to B&N and get a good price. But if you don't know which book you're looking for, the staff at B&N are not going to be much help; the staff of the Quest, on the other hand, will be a great help. Also, Barnes & Noble's does not carry books by small presses or not carried by the big distributors. Quest combs the small publishers, and finds a number of gems not available anywhere else (for example, we recently scored a number of copies of Dion Fortune's THE COSMIC DOCTRINE, not normally available in the United States). A lot of professional astrologers shop at the Quest, so we make sure that our selection of astrology books are second to none; the result is that when their clients are interested in learning astrology, we are the ones who get the business. We used very limited but highly targeted advertising to get customers in, as well. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:46:55 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Long Beach TS Lodge Message-ID: <3387298F.5C57@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > Tha't is the way it is done in India in every lodge over 100 years. We are not living in India. Recently, a Danish woman was arrested in New York City. She had left her baby in an unattended stroller outside a bar in 50 degree weather while she was inside having drinks. Apparently, this is common practice in Denmark, and she did not see any problem. But New York is not Denmark. We have much more freedom, and the price we pay is to have less security (Benjamin Franklin once said something on the order of, "Those who will give up a little freedom for a little security will end up with neither".) And in New York it IS child abuse to leave children unattended on the street. And it is considered worse when the motive is for the parent to have a good time without the "burden" of the child. Perhaps the police overreacted. But it was better for the child and mother to be separated for a couple of days, than for the child to have been stolen. If the New York Lodge existed in India, I am certain that, due to the cultural and economic differences in India, the Lodge wouldn't have any need to charge money. As it is, the New York Lodge just barely breaks even. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:52:50 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <33872AF2.41A5@sprynet.com> Tom R Robertson wrote: > > Doss wrote: > > >Do they solicit *donation* to the elevator fund? > > When I was out there this last weekend, they mentioned it, but it wasn't > exactly high pressure. By the way, Erachie "Ricky" Brown, whom you met in Wheaton, just got elected to the New York Lodge Board of Directors. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:55:08 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Charging Money Message-ID: <33872B7C.1A87@sprynet.com> I have neglected to ask one important question: What is wrong with a Theosophical Lodge charging money? Feel free to break up the question on a case-by-case basis (public vs. members, primary literature vs. related topics, ask for donations vs. charging fees, etc.) Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:12:47 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: I've always thought one way of deciding a question is to consider the initiating impulse - how much did Morya charge HPB for the teachings? How much did HPB charge HSO? How then do we, who would have little to teach save for the efforts of those first ones, charge each other, or the public, for what they gave us ... ? -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:19:19 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom R Robertson) Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <19970524.111927.5455.10.trr@juno.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: >Recently Barnes & Noble has gone on line and everyone else has to >meet the competition or else go broke. I was told at Wheaton recently that Borders does far more business than Barnes and Noble does, and is far more competition to Quest. Might this be true elsewhere? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:33:32 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom R Robertson) Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <19970524.113334.5455.11.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 24 May 1997 13:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Bart Lidofsky writes: >Tom R Robertson wrote: >> Doss wrote: >> >Do they solicit *donation* to the elevator fund? >> When I was out there this last weekend, they mentioned it, but it >> wasn't exactly high pressure. > By the way, Erachie "Ricky" Brown, whom you met in >Wheaton, just got elected to the New York Lodge Board of Directors. > > Bart Lidofsky I knew it! I suspected all along that she was part of the Wheaton oligarchy. Her friendly, funny demeanor may have fooled most people, but not me. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:37:33 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <3387356D.3040@sprynet.com> Tom R Robertson wrote: > > M K Ramadoss wrote: > > >Recently Barnes & Noble has gone on line and everyone else has to >meet > the competition or else go broke. > > I was told at Wheaton recently that Borders does far more business than > Barnes and Noble does, and is far more competition to Quest. Might this > be true elsewhere? B&N started out in New York, and has a strong presence here. There is only one Borders in the entire city. Bart From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:52:42 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <338738FA.2FA6@sprynet.com> Tom R Robertson wrote: > > By the way, Erachie "Ricky" Brown, whom you met in >Wheaton, > just got elected to the New York Lodge Board of Directors. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > I knew it! I suspected all along that she was part of the Wheaton > oligarchy. Her friendly, funny demeanor may have fooled most people, > but not me. EVERYBODY likes her. Also, she has a refreshing lack of self-consciousness. I altered the members' program to a full newsletter a couple of years ago, and she was the only person to volunteer to create material for the newsletter. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:47:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970524194744.007178bc@mail.eden.com> At 02:21 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >>Recently Barnes & Noble has gone on line and everyone else has to >meet >the competition or else go broke. > >I was told at Wheaton recently that Borders does far more business than >Barnes and Noble does, and is far more competition to Quest. Might this >be true elsewhere? > There is a Barnes & Noble, Book Stop and Borders within 7 minutes from my home. Most of the time we shop at Book Stop because they discount all the books. It is quite possible Borders may have more business. Intenet is going to have some impact on all businesses in the days to come. How it is going affect them I dont know. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:19:33 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <199705242019.OAA17770@mailmx.micron.net> Bart asked: >What is wrong with a Theosophical Lodge charging money? It's the same story: those who have money will benefit the most, especially when it comes to information. And that has the all-important built-in-guarantee: those who have access to something others do not makes those who do feel priviledged. The most priceless of gifts are free. Charging people to hear about Theosophy simply cheapens the message. Authors or lecturers who will not speak at a Lodge without requiring payment may not have quite learned what Compassion or Love really means. Mandatory handing over of cold, hard cash to walk in the doors of a place representing Theosophy is a sickening sight. There is nothing wrong, due to practical reasons, to ask for donations, grants, or other means to pay the Lodge's electric bill. . .and it also follows that those who love give of their money or labor freely. There would be no want in a Lodge that is revered and respected by those who attend or visit it. Today a Theosophical Lodge can require payment for many things, and never receive a sideways glance from anyone. . .but I think, at the heart of it, this is a tragedy. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:26:51 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Gurus Message-ID: <199705242026.NAA07035@palrel3.hp.com> Reading my backlog of mail, I had to comment on the following words of Krishnamurti. I have no problem with simple truths - those gems of archetypal wisdom. But I do have a problem with simplistic truths, which are deceptively like the real articles - and Krishnamurti can be simplistic at times. > ... the moment you come to me and ask me, "Is a guru necessary for > understanding?" then I say, "No." On the contrary it is destructive. A blanket statement that is contradicted many times over. Read the writings of Kirpal Singh, Milarepa, Yogananda, Yukteswar, Sai Baba .. etc. > It is not just an idea of mine. This is not an intellectual thing it > is a living reality. Until you feel these things, words have no > meaning. You can attend hundreds of meetings and even then you will > still remain slavish to a guru. There have been many ethical gurus who do not expect slavishness of their disciples. Yes, there have been many more fat gurus who do make slaves of their students, but so what? Cheap imitations abound for everything. > Now, so long as there are false values, there must be conflict, and no guru, > no system, no method except your own clarity, your perception, is ever going > to free your mind from false values. You want a house, you want power. It is > no good going to a guru, for example, and saying, "Please teach me how to > find out right values." You go to a guru and ask him to teach you spiritual > things and yet continue with your daily mundane activities, your daily > acquisitions. Bad students do not prove that the teachings of their gurus are bad. If I try to live as Jesus taught and fail does that disprove His teachings? > The guru who teaches you the method of independent thinking does not > exist. Do not say, "My particular guru teaches me that." That is an > absurd way of getting out of it. There is no method, no system; there > is no guru who can liberate you. I know this is contrary to your > sacred literature, to all your ways of thinking. Absurd. A guru's purpose *is* to teach you independent thinking. The path to independent thinking doesn't mean you start with a vacuum. > Your minds are so suffocated with ideas which are mostly false that > no method can free you from past tradition, because the method > becomes another cage in which you will be caught. So to free the > mind, never allow your past traditions, your upbringing, your social > laws, your religious edicts, to penetrate your thinking. You have to rightly use the truths of the past, not declare them useless. The dharma is not a rigid set of rules and methods. --- P.S. Don't take this personally, Doss. (I think you won't.) I can tell that you are full of insights and good practical application of your insights. And if you find something in Krishnamurti that benefits you, I have no right to criticize it. I wanted merely to make some comments on a few statements that I think are misleading. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:48:51 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom R Robertson) Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <19970524.140521.5455.12.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 24 May 1997 16:24:10 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >Bart asked: >>What is wrong with a Theosophical Lodge charging money? >It's the same story: those who have money will benefit the most, >especially when it comes to information. And that has the all-important >built-in-guarantee: those who have access to something others do not >makes those who do feel priviledged. How much money someone has is a rough estimate of society's debt to him or her. To the extent that money has been gained by contributing to society, those who have it should be priveleged. Charging for programs also weeds out those who are less interested. >The most priceless of gifts are free. Charging people to hear about >Theosophy simply cheapens the message. Maybe Quest Books should stop charging for books. >Authors or lecturers who will not speak at a Lodge without requiring >payment may not have quite learned what Compassion or Love really >means. I doubt if very many teachers of Theosophy would refuse to speak if there was no fee. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:57:12 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom R Robertson) Subject: Re: Gurus Message-ID: <19970524.140521.5455.13.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 24 May 1997 16:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Titus Roth writes: >Reading my backlog of mail, I had to comment on the following words of >Krishnamurti. I have no problem with simple truths - those gems of >archetypal wisdom. But I do have a problem with simplistic truths, >which are deceptively like the real articles - and Krishnamurti can be >simplistic at times. >> The guru who teaches you the method of independent thinking does >> not exist. Do not say, "My particular guru teaches me that." That is an >> absurd way of getting out of it. There is no method, no system; >> there is no guru who can liberate you. I know this is contrary to your >> sacred literature, to all your ways of thinking. >Absurd. A guru's purpose *is* to teach you independent thinking. The >path to independent thinking doesn't mean you start with a vacuum. Krishnamurti, at least according to a literal interpretation of what he said, went to an extreme regarding gurus (among other subjects). Maybe he could think entirely for himself, but he seemed to believe that there was no reason that everyone could not do the same. Thinking for oneself is a goal toward which only gradual growth, by degrees, requiring many lifetimes, is possible. In the meantime, selecting the words of others, on which to rely, is necessary for that growth. No one should have a broken leg, either, but for those who do, crutches are necessary in order to arrive at a point where they will not be needed. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:20:15 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Guru gas? Message-ID: > DSArthur offered a quote: > > >The cause of all suffering is the failure to have that which you > >desire. > >Therefore, desire nothing ... for that you may surely have. > > Kym wrote: > I just leaned back, in a big, fluffy easy chair, and pictured the entire > body of humanity practicing these particular words of wisdom from > Nisargadatta Maharaj. > > The graven images of inertia were the centerpiece of every cave. What you say is very, very true. But to those who have known inertia all their lives and desire nothing more, they have everything they desire and are, therefore, happy, are they not? The biggest problem with loss of desire is that it is an impossibility due to our current circumstances and the way our bodies are made up. Without desires, I see a world totally lacking of humans. Humans exist because they have the desire to live. They have the desire to procreate. To live, they must eat, and therefore desire food. They need shelter, and therefore desire their cave, or their house, or their apartment. They must drink, and therefore they desire water. Not everyone can live next to a lake or river, so they must desire a faucet. Someone else had to have the desire to invent that faucet, the irrigation system, etc. This was good advice when 100 - 1000 people lived in every city. When things didn't have to be complex to serve the complexity of humanity. I don't think that the idea anymore is to get rid of desire altogether, but to get rid of the desires that only waste one's time. The desire to smoke a cigarette, (which I do...) the desire to drink wine, (which I occasionally do) the desire to own little pewter(sp?) images of cats and dogs and unicorns, the desire to look pretty, the desire for the things that are pretty, the desire for lakefront property, for a huge bank account. All these things are fairly unnessecary(I sware I can't spell today *laugh* (sware?) ) for our survival. I think the idea is to find out which desires we have are really important to our existence and to our evolution, and which ones are just a fancy. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:09:31 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970524180931.006902b0@mail.eden.com> At 04:24 PM 5/24/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >Bart asked: > >>What is wrong with a Theosophical Lodge charging money? > > >It's the same story: those who have money will benefit the most, especially >when it comes to information. And that has the all-important >built-in-guarantee: those who have access to something others do not makes >those who do feel priviledged. > >The most priceless of gifts are free. Charging people to hear about >Theosophy simply cheapens the message. Authors or lecturers who will not >speak at a Lodge without requiring payment may not have quite learned what >Compassion or Love really means. Mandatory handing over of cold, hard cash >to walk in the doors of a place representing Theosophy is a sickening sight. > >There is nothing wrong, due to practical reasons, to ask for donations, >grants, or other means to pay the Lodge's electric bill. . .and it also >follows that those who love give of their money or labor freely. There >would be no want in a Lodge that is revered and respected by those who >attend or visit it. > >Today a Theosophical Lodge can require payment for many things, and never >receive a sideways glance from anyone. . .but I think, at the heart of it, >this is a tragedy. > > >Kym > You have eloquently put what was in my mind. Several lodges I have been associated with never paid a penny to any of the lecturers nor charged anything. Nor did any of their activities suffered due to lack of funds -- it was always lack of interest in members. Even locally we have never paid anyone to speak or lecture to us nor have be charged for any of our meetings. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:14:23 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Gurus Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970524181423.006893f4@mail.eden.com> At 04:29 PM 5/24/97 -0400, Titus Roth wrote: >Reading my backlog of mail, I had to comment on the following words of >Krishnamurti. I have no problem with simple truths - those gems of >archetypal wisdom. But I do have a problem with simplistic truths, >which are deceptively like the real articles - and Krishnamurti can be >simplistic at times. > >> ... the moment you come to me and ask me, "Is a guru necessary for >> understanding?" then I say, "No." On the contrary it is destructive. > >A blanket statement that is contradicted many times over. Read the >writings of Kirpal Singh, Milarepa, Yogananda, Yukteswar, Sai Baba >.. etc. > >> It is not just an idea of mine. This is not an intellectual thing it >> is a living reality. Until you feel these things, words have no >> meaning. You can attend hundreds of meetings and even then you will >> still remain slavish to a guru. > >There have been many ethical gurus who do not expect slavishness of >their disciples. Yes, there have been many more fat gurus who do make >slaves of their students, but so what? Cheap imitations abound for >everything. > >> Now, so long as there are false values, there must be conflict, and no guru, >> no system, no method except your own clarity, your perception, is ever going >> to free your mind from false values. You want a house, you want power. It is >> no good going to a guru, for example, and saying, "Please teach me how to >> find out right values." You go to a guru and ask him to teach you spiritual >> things and yet continue with your daily mundane activities, your daily >> acquisitions. > >Bad students do not prove that the teachings of their gurus are bad. If >I try to live as Jesus taught and fail does that disprove His teachings? > >> The guru who teaches you the method of independent thinking does not >> exist. Do not say, "My particular guru teaches me that." That is an >> absurd way of getting out of it. There is no method, no system; there >> is no guru who can liberate you. I know this is contrary to your >> sacred literature, to all your ways of thinking. > >Absurd. A guru's purpose *is* to teach you independent thinking. The >path to independent thinking doesn't mean you start with a vacuum. > >> Your minds are so suffocated with ideas which are mostly false that >> no method can free you from past tradition, because the method >> becomes another cage in which you will be caught. So to free the >> mind, never allow your past traditions, your upbringing, your social >> laws, your religious edicts, to penetrate your thinking. > >You have to rightly use the truths of the past, not declare them >useless. The dharma is not a rigid set of rules and methods. > >--- >P.S. > >Don't take this personally, Doss. (I think you won't.) I can tell that >you are full of insights and good practical application of your >insights. And if you find something in Krishnamurti that benefits you, >I have no right to criticize it. I wanted merely to make some comments >on a few statements that I think are misleading. > Hello: I don't and should not take anything personally. Only time I tend to take things personally is when some one questions my honesty or integrity. In all these things we discuss here, there are many many points of view and so long as we keep in mind that we are all try to learn and be humble in our own certainty of what we know, we all will be ok. One day we all will know truth first hand. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:17:55 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970524181755.006893f4@mail.eden.com> At 05:07 PM 5/24/97 -0400, Tom R Robertson wrote: > >Maybe Quest Books should stop charging for books. > As a starter, they can by published on Internet so that they reach all over the world. Just a thought. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:13:50 -0500 (CDT) From: texhut@ix.netcom.com Subject: Book Browsing, On-Line & Off Message-ID: <199752420214576334@> Good Cyber-Day, All: Today (Saturday, 5/24) I visited the Quest Bookstore in NYC for the first time in years....what a great place!!! Let me speak openly as a bookstore junkie: if a Barnes & Noble employee can find it in their computer system, then you save a few bucks. If they can't, they look at you as though your schizophrenia license just expired and maybe they should call security. Ditto Border's, which we have in White Plains (I'm a resident of Westchester County) as well as Manhattan. I haven't visited their on-line site. My URL of choice is amazon.com, which carries many titles one would not expect them to. Today's visit to Quest reminded me of something: perhaps books exist that I don't have enough sense to look for. That is, old- style shelf-browsing is a GOOD THING. I can save another few bucks at amazon.com but I've resolved to visit Quest every few months or so just to keep up. So what did I purchase today? A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE. But what am I going to return for? Don't know yet -- a bunch of titles are floating through my mind. When I leave a bookstore website, it's certainly not with the same richness of memories that a visit to a good bookstore provides. I doubt that, excepting for the East-West bookstores, which seem to be NYC's New Age response to McDonald's, there's another store around quite like Quest. Scott Hutton From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:49:20 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Guru gas? Message-ID: <199705250149.TAA00929@mailmx.micron.net> Jaqi. wrote: >What you say is very, very true. But to those who have known inertia all >their lives and desire nothing more, they have everything they desire and >are, therefore, happy, are they not? I wouldn't think so. How can one be happy in a state of inertia? And not knowing any better isn't happiness, is it? Ignorance isn't happiness. >Without desires, I see a world totally lacking of humans. And animals, and insects, and plants, etc. . . >This was good advice when 100 - 1000 people lived in every city. When >things didn't have to be complex to serve the complexity of humanity. I fail to see how the phrase "Desire nothing" could ever be good advice - be it for one or one million. >I sware I can't spell >today *laugh* (sware?) Sware is the correct spelling. I swear. >I think the idea is to find out which desires we have are really important >to our existence and to our evolution, and which ones are just a fancy. I basically agree with most of what you said. Your closing statement sums it up nicely. So like, did you ever say what your new name means or from whence it comes? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:32:18 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <199705250232.UAA02859@mailmx.micron.net> >> Kym wrote: priviledged > Tom wrote: priveleged Before we go on. . .let's get something straight. Privileged is not spelled "priviledged" or "priveleged." And since I caught it first, I win. Tom wrote: >How much money someone has is a rough estimate of society's debt to him >or her. To the extent that money has been gained by contributing to >society, those who have it should be priveleged. Charging for programs >also weeds out those who are less interested. Hello? Knock, knock. Hello? How much money someone has is a rough estimate of society debt to him or her? Ok, how much do we owe Mother Theresa? Or Jesus? Or the woman who rocks to sleep the abandoned crack-addicted babies? Or the man who mentors for adolescent boys who have no one to turn to? Ok, now, let's talk about the wonderful humanitarian works of Trump, Gingrich, Helmsley, Perot, etc. . .gee, nothing's coming to mind. Any ideas? Charging for programs also weeds out those who are less interested! Well, sink me, you're full today, aren't ya? The Theosophical Lodges need to change their gardening practices. The only thing charging does is keep out those who can't afford it, no matter how interested they are. Flash: the spending of money does not signify interest in a cause or program. . . >> (Kym wrote) The most priceless of gifts are free. Charging people to hear about >>Theosophy simply cheapens the message. > >Maybe Quest Books should stop charging for books. Pardon, but, Quest Books is not a Lodge, it is a business. But, since you insist. . .this is where libraries come in. There will always be those who can and want to pay for their own copies of books, but for those who cannot, copies should be provided via the libraries. These books can be obtained for Lodges by grants and donations. KO - you're down, man. Don't get back up, it'll just get ugly. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:56:17 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom R Robertson) Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <19970524.195619.5367.0.trr@juno.com> On Sat, 24 May 1997 22:32:38 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >>> Kym wrote: priviledged >> Tom wrote: priveleged >Before we go on. . .let's get something straight. Privileged is not >spelled "priviledged" or "priveleged." And since I caught it first, I win. I caught yours even before I wrote mine. And your last sentence should have been written: 'Privileged is neither spelled "priviledged" nor "priveleged.'" So there. I'm ahead. >Hello? Knock, knock. Hello? Is there an echo in here? >How much money someone has is a rough estimate of society debt to >him or her? Ok, how much do we owe Mother Theresa? Or Jesus? Or >the woman who rocks to sleep the abandoned crack-addicted babies? >Or the man who mentors for adolescent boys who have no one to turn >to? I didn't say money is a perfect gauge of society's debt to its owner. Profit and value are correlated, but only partially. They also diverge. >Ok, now, let's talk about the wonderful humanitarian works of Trump, >Gingrich, Helmsley, Perot, etc. . .gee, nothing's coming to mind. Any >ideas? Don't forget about Seattle's great _Democrat_ hero, Bill Gates. Has anyone contributed to society more than he has? >the spending of money does not signify interest in a cause or >program. . . That's exactly what it signifies. If anyone is unwilling to spend $5 for a program, that means they weren't very interested in the first place. It costs me more than $5 just in car expense to get to and from each program. If anyone is unable to spend $5 for a program, 1) it is probably due to not having contributed to society enough, and 2) he or she isn't turned away, at least by the Seattle lodge. >>> (Kym wrote) The most priceless of gifts are free. Charging people >>> to hear about Theosophy simply cheapens the message. >>Maybe Quest Books should stop charging for books. >Pardon, but, Quest Books is not a Lodge, it is a business. Its purpose is identical. >There will always be those who can and want to pay for their own >copies of books, but for those who cannot, copies should be provided >via the libraries. The Seattle lodge charges for library membership, too. We're really cutthroat. >KO - you're down, man. Don't get back up, it'll just get ugly. Why didn't you say that at the beginning of your message? It would have saved me the trouble of spewing forth all of my wisdom. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:22:17 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: Once again, it seems that our conflicts are arising from one person's stance on one extreme, and the other's on another. Everyone has good points. Yes, charging for lectures about love and compassion is the antithesis to love and compassion. Yes, businesses and lodges need funds to survive in a complex economy. Yes, fees weed out those with money who are not really interested in the lecture, but yes, it also inhibits those who have no money, who are interested, from attending. It would be nice if everything were free, but it is impossible, just as it is impossible for humans to survive without some desire. There are electric bills for the lodges. There are plane tickets for the lecturers. There are publishing costs for the books. There are business property taxes to be paid. The funds for all of these things have to come from somewhere. The question is ...where? To pay the electric bill for the lodge? That could easily come from those who support it. How do the Boy and Girl Scouts get their money? Raffles, car washes, donations from the public. Some of it comes from that. The only time there is a fee is when they go on a trip somewhere and they need to pay for the transportation. And then only if the raffles and car washes and donations didn't cover it. I have no idea how much your average lodge spends in a month, but it can't be all that much. A raffle every now and then, (for a gift certificate at Quest, perhaps?), or a car wash could probably take care of the electric bill. The plane ticket for the lecturer? If the lecturer cannot afford the plane ticket, and the lodge members want the lecturer, then they should definitely contribute to the cost. The lecture is for the members, not the lecturer. If it is the lecturer's idea to go to the lodge, then chances are that he has the funds to pay for it. There should be no charge for the lecture itself. The publishing costs? Obviously, as Kym said, the bookstore is a business. They serve the general public. They pay property taxes. They pay sales tax. They pay a lot. They need to charge for their books. The question is, do they charge just enough for expansion and/or remodeling? Or do they charge a lot so that the owners may own lakefront property? It all boils down to this, I think. The difference between "Give me money." and "Give me money because I need to pay for..." A person is more likely to make a donation if he knows EXACTLY where his money is going. Offer a small reward for the donations. At the end of the year, find out who donated, and have a dinner or something. Within a year, even the poorest person can come up with a couple bucks. You can find that in the parking lot of a grocery store. Just remember that you can't discriminate between those who gave a lot and those who gave a little. Normally, those who gave a little, gave a lot, and those who gave a lot, gave a lot. (No, this wasn't a typo). Fees for lodges is ridiculous. If the people who go to the meetings, etc. don't like them enough to keep the lodge alive, then something is wrong with the lodge. When it comes to a non-profit organization such as the Theosophical Society, fees only show the fragility of the morale of its members. My donation. --- Jaqi. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:30:35 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Charging Fees Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970525033035.006beac0@mail.eden.com> Since many lodges don't charge fees or pay their lecturers, it may an interesting exercise how they are able to do it. I recall during the days when HPB lived in NY, she did not have 9-5 working hours and Old Diary Leaves describe there were constant stream of visitors late into the night and self-serve coffee in the kitchen. I wonder how she was able to manage. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:43:24 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Book Browsing, On-Line & Off Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970525034324.006cda90@mail.eden.com> At 08:14 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Good Cyber-Day, All: > >Today (Saturday, 5/24) I visited the Quest Bookstore in NYC for >the first time in years....what a great place!!! > >Let me speak openly as a bookstore junkie: if a Barnes & Noble >employee can find it in their computer system, then you save a >few bucks. If they can't, they look at you as though your >schizophrenia license just expired and maybe they should call >security. Ditto Border's, which we have in White Plains (I'm a >resident of Westchester County) as well as Manhattan. > >I haven't visited their on-line site. My URL of choice is >amazon.com, which carries many titles one would not expect them >to. > >Today's visit to Quest reminded me of something: perhaps books >exist that I don't have enough sense to look for. That is, old- >style shelf-browsing is a GOOD THING. I can save another few >bucks at amazon.com but I've resolved to visit Quest every few >months or so just to keep up. > >So what did I purchase today? A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE. But >what am I going to return for? Don't know yet -- a bunch of >titles are floating through my mind. > >When I leave a bookstore website, it's certainly not with the >same richness of memories that a visit to a good bookstore >provides. I doubt that, excepting for the East-West bookstores, >which seem to be NYC's New Age response to McDonald's, there's >another store around quite like Quest. > > > Scott Hutton > > I guess different strokes for different people. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:17:01 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <3387BD3D.A01@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > At 04:24 PM 5/24/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > >Bart asked: > > > >>What is wrong with a Theosophical Lodge charging money? > > > > > >It's the same story: those who have money will benefit the most, especially > >when it comes to information. And that has the all-important > >built-in-guarantee: those who have access to something others do not makes > >those who do feel priviledged. > > > >The most priceless of gifts are free. Charging people to hear about > >Theosophy simply cheapens the message. Authors or lecturers who will not > >speak at a Lodge without requiring payment may not have quite learned what > >Compassion or Love really means. Mandatory handing over of cold, hard cash > >to walk in the doors of a place representing Theosophy is a sickening sight. > > > >There is nothing wrong, due to practical reasons, to ask for donations, > >grants, or other means to pay the Lodge's electric bill. . .and it also > >follows that those who love give of their money or labor freely. There > >would be no want in a Lodge that is revered and respected by those who > >attend or visit it. > > > >Today a Theosophical Lodge can require payment for many things, and never > >receive a sideways glance from anyone. . .but I think, at the heart of it, > >this is a tragedy. > > > > > >Kym > > > > You have eloquently put what was in my mind. > > Several lodges I have been associated with never paid a penny to any of the > lecturers nor charged anything. Nor did any of their activities suffered > due to lack of funds -- it was always lack of interest in members. Even > locally we have never paid anyone to speak or lecture to us nor have be > charged for any of our meetings. Neither of you have addressed the question. For those who sincerely want to attend programs and cannot afford to do so, arrangements can be made. But what is wrong with charging those who CAN afford to pay? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:22:59 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <3387BEA3.8DF@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > The most priceless of gifts are free. Charging people to hear about > Theosophy simply cheapens the message. How? > Authors or lecturers who will not > speak at a Lodge without requiring payment may not have quite learned what > Compassion or Love really means. What does Compassion and Love really mean? > Mandatory handing over of cold, hard cash > to walk in the doors of a place representing Theosophy is a sickening sight. WHY??????? > Today a Theosophical Lodge can require payment for many things, and never > receive a sideways glance from anyone. . .but I think, at the heart of it, > this is a tragedy. Once again, WHY? Now, the New York Lodge does not charge for straight Theosophical presentations. But the fees for the other programs help pay for the free ones. We also give out scholarships to those who do not have money, but are willing to volunteer their time. But that is the way we try to give our message maximum reach, without having one or two contributors become the arbiters of what is or what is not Theosophical. So, one might say that, in fulfilling its primary purposes, it is advantageous for a Theosophical Lodge to do so for free. But it does not state what is wrong with charging money, or, even more to the point, what is wrong with charging money for things which only fulfill secondary purposes? Bart Lidofsky P.S. According to Michael Gomes, the main Lodge at Adyar frequently charges money when a major speaker comes. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:27:06 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Book Browsing, On-Line & Off Message-ID: <3387BF9A.4B89@sprynet.com> texhut@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Good Cyber-Day, All: > > Today (Saturday, 5/24) I visited the Quest Bookstore in NYC for > the first time in years....what a great place!!! Due to a lack of enough personnel to deal with on-line orders, and a secure server, the web page for the Quest is a simple advertisement. I will, however, print out your letter for my wife, who manages the Quest Bookshop. (The pretty girl at the counter was not my wife but Janet, our "adopted" daughter. The young man was Tim, son of an E.S. member. The older man with a beard was Gary, the assistant manager. If you saw a rather harrassed looking man in a jogging outfit, also with a beard, that was me. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:32:59 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <3387C0FB.7716@sprynet.com> Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: > > Once again, it seems that our conflicts are arising from one person's > stance on one extreme, and the other's on another. Everyone has good > points. Yes, charging for lectures about love and compassion is the > antithesis to love and compassion. Why? Sometimes, when an idea is repeated often enough, it is accepted as true, regardless of any reasoning behind it. It helps to, every now and then, shake these ideas out, and see if there really is any sense in it. Remember, not so long ago it was considered completely reasonable to pay a woman less for doing a job than a man for doing the same job. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:24:57 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <199705250524.XAA10919@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: > Neither of you have addressed the question. Oops! Thank you for setting us straight! >For those who sincerely >want to attend programs and cannot afford to do so, arrangements can be >made. But what is wrong with charging those who CAN afford to pay? Well, first, how do you, pray tell, figure out who can afford to pay and who cannot afford to pay? Will someone's word do, or do they have to show a pay stub or welfare check? Oh, and how do you figure out if they are "sincere?" Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:38:04 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970525053804.0071ebbc@mail.eden.com> At 12:18 AM 5/25/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> At 04:24 PM 5/24/97 -0400, kymsmith@micron.net wrote: >> >Bart asked: >> > >> >>What is wrong with a Theosophical Lodge charging money? >> > >> > >> >It's the same story: those who have money will benefit the most, especially >> >when it comes to information. And that has the all-important >> >built-in-guarantee: those who have access to something others do not makes >> >those who do feel priviledged. >> > >> >The most priceless of gifts are free. Charging people to hear about >> >Theosophy simply cheapens the message. Authors or lecturers who will not >> >speak at a Lodge without requiring payment may not have quite learned what >> >Compassion or Love really means. Mandatory handing over of cold, hard cash >> >to walk in the doors of a place representing Theosophy is a sickening sight. >> > >> >There is nothing wrong, due to practical reasons, to ask for donations, >> >grants, or other means to pay the Lodge's electric bill. . .and it also >> >follows that those who love give of their money or labor freely. There >> >would be no want in a Lodge that is revered and respected by those who >> >attend or visit it. >> > >> >Today a Theosophical Lodge can require payment for many things, and never >> >receive a sideways glance from anyone. . .but I think, at the heart of it, >> >this is a tragedy. >> > >> > >> >Kym >> > >> >> You have eloquently put what was in my mind. >> >> Several lodges I have been associated with never paid a penny to any of the >> lecturers nor charged anything. Nor did any of their activities suffered >> due to lack of funds -- it was always lack of interest in members. Even >> locally we have never paid anyone to speak or lecture to us nor have be >> charged for any of our meetings. > > Neither of you have addressed the question. For those who sincerely >want to attend programs and cannot afford to do so, arrangements can be >made. But what is wrong with charging those who CAN afford to pay? > > Bart Lidofsky Personally I do not like to inquire if someone cannot afford to pay or wanting anyone to let me know that he/she cannot afford to pay. Again in most of the lodges I have been involved with which had all programs free, none of their activities were curtailed due to want of funds. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:42:06 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970525054206.00711f94@mail.eden.com> At 12:23 AM 5/25/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >According to Michael Gomes, the main Lodge at Adyar frequently >charges money when a major speaker comes. May be this is a recent innovation at Adyar. From inception till mid 1970s, I never heard of any fee being charged for either major or minor speakers. I hope this does not give excuse for all the lodges around the world to find a reason to start charging. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 97 17:46:25 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Society's debt? Message-ID: <199705252146.RAA18500@leo.vsla.edu> Tom wrote that a person's finances are a rough measure of society's debt to him/her. I'd say the opposite: the wealthy are those who have the greatest debt to society. Many of them recognize this, which is the whole point of foundations. As to the question of why not to charge: this is something that you either "get" or you don't, it seems. But JRC approaches the key issue, which is that everything that one has received for free in life obliges one to pass that on for free. Having never been charged by anyone for learning Theosophy, I feel morally obliged to pass on anything I have learned without charge. There is a whole class of New Age commercialists who charge fees for a panoply of services. I won't judge them, but also refuse to imitate them or take my chances on getting into the same karmic situation. For example, I do astrology, have done charts for dozens of people, and would die before charging for it. Why? When you charge money, you are saying in effect: "This is valuable, this is reliable, I guarantee it." When you do it for free, you are saying, "I hope this helps, but want you to take it with a large grain of salt." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:07:34 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Trust Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970525220734.00731b00@mail.eden.com> At 12:10 PM 5/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> PS: Did you get any more information from Gomes on Krishnamurti Trust >> litigation matters? Just curious. > > He keeps on promising to write it up for me, but he is extremely busy >on his new book, plus his full-time job here. > > Bart > Thanks for the feedback. I am eager to know what he find out that I am not already aware of. .................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:11:59 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Book Browsing, On-Line & Off Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970525221159.00733994@mail.eden.com> At 12:12 PM 5/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> Is there any special significance that Tim is the son of an *ES* *member*? >> Just curious? > > Well, mainly that he's second generation Theosophist. I could have said >his father was a dedicated Theosophist, but I thought ES member was a >reasonable shorthand, as in "Not all dedicated Theosophists are ES >members, but all ES members are dedicated Theosophists". > > Bart Thanks for the feedback. I posed the question because in the minds of some people there is this idea that if one is an ES member he/she is in some sense better or superior to a non ES member. ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:13:17 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970525221317.007258ec@mail.eden.com> At 01:28 PM 5/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-05-24 12:35:47 EDT, you write: > >> Do they solicit >>*donation* to the elevator fund? Do you know? > >They put a basket up with "elevator fund" written on a card in it, but other >than that nothing is mentioned. > >Chuck the Heretic > Thanks. Just was curious. The elevator fund collection has been going on for years. ...........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:21:25 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970525222125.0072de34@mail.eden.com> At 05:46 PM 5/25/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >Tom wrote that a person's finances are a rough measure of >society's debt to him/her. I'd say the opposite: the wealthy >are those who have the greatest debt to society. Many of them >recognize this, which is the whole point of foundations. > >As to the question of why not to charge: this is something that >you either "get" or you don't, it seems. But JRC approaches >the key issue, which is that everything that one has received >for free in life obliges one to pass that on for free. Having >never been charged by anyone for learning Theosophy, I feel >morally obliged to pass on anything I have learned without >charge. > >There is a whole class of New Age commercialists who charge >fees for a panoply of services. I won't judge them, but also >refuse to imitate them or take my chances on getting into the >same karmic situation. For example, I do astrology, have done >charts for dozens of people, and would die before charging for it. >Why? When you charge money, you are saying in effect: "This is >valuable, this is reliable, I guarantee it." When you do it >for free, you are saying, "I hope this helps, but want you to >take it with a large grain of salt." > Let me add my 2 cents worth. Even if I have spent years and a lot of effort (which can be measured by time x hourly rate) and have found or learnt something (especially spiritual) which I think can help even a singly human being, I feel it is my responsibility not to charge anything. May be I am foolish in this day and age when everything costs money. ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:50:29 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: <199705252250.QAA12818@mailmx.micron.net> Paul wrote: >>As to the question of why not to charge: this is something that >>you either "get" or you don't, it seems. But JRC approaches >>the key issue, which is that everything that one has received >>for free in life obliges one to pass that on for free. Having >>never been charged by anyone for learning Theosophy, I feel >>morally obliged to pass on anything I have learned without >>charge. Doss added: >Let me add my 2 cents worth. Even if I have spent years and a lot of effort >(which can be measured by time x hourly rate) and have found or learnt >something (especially spiritual) which I think can help even a singly human >being, I feel it is my responsibility not to charge anything. May be I am >foolish in this day and age when everything costs money. Love and Compassion incarnate. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:40:39 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: In message <199705250232.UAA02859@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Pardon, but, Quest Books is not a Lodge, it is a business. But, since you >insist. . .this is where libraries come in. There will always be those who >can and want to pay for their own copies of books, but for those who cannot, >copies should be provided via the libraries. These books can be obtained >for Lodges by grants and donations. .. and theosophy is not a business, but an approach to living. Which is why my ~Keys to Kabbalah~ is now available free for anyone who cares to download it from the web. And I don't recall the "masters" charging Sinnet for writing to him ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:47:29 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: In message <199705250524.XAA10919@mailmx.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >Oh, and how do you figure out if they are "sincere?" They arrive wearing "I am Sincere" badges, I imagine. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:46:01 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: In message , Jaqtarin Samantha Triele writes >Fees for lodges is ridiculous. If the people who go to the meetings, etc. >don't like them enough to keep the lodge alive, then something is wrong >with the lodge. When it comes to a non-profit organization such as the >Theosophical Society, fees only show the fragility of the morale of its >members. This, for me, is the bottom line. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, but them as want to eat, let them pay. And let them also feed the poor. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:16:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: New York special case? Message-ID: <970525191649_-1398243737@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-25 18:16:15 EDT, you write: >Thanks. Just was curious. The elevator fund collection has been going on for >years. I don't think they get the sort of big donations now that they got when it was started and as the bureacratic mess continues to foul up the building of it the price keeps growing and the donations keep shrinking. The situation is something akin to the question of a frog jumping half the distance each time he jumps as his previous leap so how long will it take him to cross the room and the answer is never. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:25:33 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: RE: Charging Fees Message-ID: <01BC696B.72CBB060@rvik-ppp-113.ismennt.is> Hi folks. It has been interesting to follow all those suggestions and discussions on whether charging fees or not. As we have noted, some branches charge, some don't, some pay wages, some don't. I think maybe that demanding none-charged meetings is quite unrealistic in some cases, we have to partake in the costs, but the best thing is if the cash flow passes sort of unnoticed by the average visitor, or as least as a natural thing. Let me tell something of our experiences in Iceland. We have roundabout 350 members nationwide, out of 260,000 inhabitants. Not all pay the annual membership dues of US$ 35.- of which half goes to the Section, (there are free or reduced fee membership for elderly and handicapped, students etc.). We don't charge fee for any lectures, seminars etc. but we charge for material, paper, food, and lodgings in case of summer school etc. One particular income is important. Once a week, on Friday evenings, there is a lecture open for public and advertised in the local paper. After the lecture we invite for coffee, tea and cakes, a venerable fiesta at times, - a very good time for mingling with newcomers and discussing the talk etc. - and we "charge" $ 4.- or rather expect donation in an open box at the door. Then on Saturdays there is an "Open House" with discussion, where we also have coffee and something for $ 2.50. We never pay any wages for teachings, although we regularly get "celebrities" that charge considerable sums elsewhere. This is probably because we don't charge for the attendance, and partly because we have a reputation of quality of subjects at our meetings. Among regular lecturers have been professors in philosophy, psychology, literature, anthropology and theology. We try to have a balance of intellectual and spiritual teachings, with profundity as a guiding light. This is all very important basic foundation for the theosophical work, but one must not forget or neglect the personal, communional, brotherly/sisterly, social part of it. If the members, especially new members, don't feel at home - if we can't bring about the spirit of universal family within the group as a whole, then we can't expect anyone to pay anything. This is not a "spiritual grocery store" where you bargain for the lowest price - and it should not be - it's a shared togetherness, where it's a privilege to partake in the expenses, but where companionship is the most valued and valuable asset there is. It is therefore mandatory for the growth of our society that we can find a balanced menu of spiritual food, which should be fresh, intellectually and spiritually uplifting, practical and useful for the average person's life, and with a profound meaning or direction towards an individual spiritual growth. We have to find a way to convey the ancient perennial philosophy with new words, new insights, new enthusiasm. Our era demands more practicality and less intellectuality, - discussion, meditation, community, rather than intellectual study, and more of psychological introspection and mystical contemplation rather than intellectual analysis. But most of all we need a HEART into the work and study, - that love which makes giving the highest provider of happiness. We should not become a slaves of (in)voluntary work, (in)voluntary service or help to others, but willful workers for and because of the immense happiness that sharing and partaking endows upon the true giver. If we can build up such an enthusiasm within our lodge or branch, it won't matter much whether we charge money one way or another, money will be there when you need it. It takes an enthusiasm of one or two really engaged people to light such a kindle within a branch that no "light-extinguishers" can cope with for long. If you have a light and energy within, why not let it shine, so that weary hearts can warm themselves in it? Let me conclude with a real example. Few years ago it came painfully obvious that our 80 year old headquarters building needed a massive rebuilding, (or else we could risk a disaster when full of people). We had a fund of approx. 35% of estimated cost of US$ 150,000.-. It was decided to go along with the first of two stages, which was carried out in 5 months, with such a lot of volunteer work and goodwill, that when we started regular work with a fundraising opening festival, we had still some money in the bank. Two years later we concluded stage two, and believe it or not we came out almost even from the whole thing. What was the beauty of it was not the money, but the unison and goodwill that flowered within the society while and after the restoration. It was the best thing that had happened to us for a long time. With love and light, Einar. ------------------------------------------------------------ Since many lodges don't charge fees or pay their lecturers, it may an interesting exercise how they are able to do it. I recall during the days when HPB lived in NY, she did not have 9-5 working hours and Old Diary Leaves describe there were constant stream of visitors late into the night and self-serve coffee in the kitchen. I wonder how she was able to manage. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:55:54 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: <3388DF9A.4F95@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > There is a whole class of New Age commercialists who charge > fees for a panoply of services. I won't judge them, but also > refuse to imitate them or take my chances on getting into the > same karmic situation. What are the karmic consequences of accepting money? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:59:46 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Elevator Fund Message-ID: <3388E082.22F@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > At 01:28 PM 5/25/97 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 97-05-24 12:35:47 EDT, you write: > > > >> Do they solicit > >>*donation* to the elevator fund? Do you know? > > > >They put a basket up with "elevator fund" written on a card in it, but other > >than that nothing is mentioned. > > > >Chuck the Heretic > > > > Thanks. Just was curious. The elevator fund collection has been going on for > years. For good reason. People confined to wheelchairs, or who have difficulty walking, cannot attend many of the programs given at Wheaton. Unfortunately, there is no place they can place a standard elevator, so they must have a custom-made one installed. This costs money. One alternative is to try to meditate an elevator into existence. Another is to wait for someone with the proper sidhis to come along, and levitate people who cannot climb stairs to the programs. The third was to try to raise money to build an elevator (Kern Foundation grants may not be used for the purpose of construction). If you have a better solution, I'm sure that the people at Wheaton would be (seriously) happy to hear it. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:24:02 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Expenses of Lodges Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526022402.006dff6c@mail.eden.com> Hi I was a member of a lodge which had no money in the bank. However, whenever there was a need to get anything done -- like a new roof or any special program that needed to be organized, there was always volunteer donors who came up with the needed funds. Just thought I should share this with you all. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:33:22 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Lodge expenses Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526023322.006fd17c@mail.eden.com> Hi We have had a lot of discussion on the issue of charging. It appears there could be a problem in certain lodges. For example, due to taxes and maintenance, some lodge property may have very high overhead. I recall that several decades ago which Krotona was located in Hollywood, they seemed to have faced a similar situation. It was resolved by selling the very valuable property and moving to Ojai. So it is possible there could be other lodges which face somewhat similar problem. But if the high overhead problem is there, still the question that each lodge is faced with is for what and how much it should charge to keep it going. Only those running the lodge will know all the facts and can try different approaches. The bottom line is does it really work in furthering the cause of Theosophy or does it help just get by for the day or month. Another problem that seems to affect some of the lodges which own property is the level of utilization. For example we have a situation in San Antonio where we have a fairly large Lodge building which is used for a couple of hours each week and rest of the time the building is locked. Here due the life estate of the donor and donor has been missing for couple of years, the situation is more complicated. May be others have other kinds of problems and it would be interesting to learn about them. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:08:21 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Money, Fees, Morality Message-ID: <3388FEA5.90E@sprynet.com> One problem I have been seeing is that many here are taking the immorality of the charging of money to be axiomatic. And I do not take it as such. One reason why there is an illusion of moral relativism is that morality is not subject to simple binary logic (nor are most real-world logical decisions). In fact, in each moral decision, there are numerous factors working for and against each other. The weight of those factors change the importance of other factors. This requires what is currently called in mathematics a "fuzzy logic" system, or a system where many factors are taken into consideration, and the weight of each factor affects the weights of all the other factors. The basic factors involved in making a moral decision are the moral axioms one chooses. The more axioms one has in a moral system, the more relativistic it necessarily becomes, and the harder it is to make a moral decision. I hereby propose two axioms on which to build a basis of a definition of morality: 1) The key to morality is one's true intentions. 2) The most moral action in any given situation is the one which benefits humanity the most, when taken in its totality. Now let's look at charging money. Now, the action of charging fees and accepting money is not, in and of itself, either moral or immoral. One must look at intentionality, as well as the impact of the transfer of money on the condition of humanity. If one, for example, never accepts money, and starves to death as a result, it is probable that one has harmed humanity more than helped it, and therefore have committed an immoral action. Now it can be said that the sharing of knowledge with others improves the condition of humanity, and the withholding of knowledge from others harms humanity. And one can, if one is looking at the situation very narrowly, state that withholding knowledge due to lack of payment of money is therefore immoral. But that violates the 1st and part of the second axiom. One is not looking at intentionality, and one is not looking at the totality of the action. Most branches of Christianity declare the making and transfer of money to be somehow sinful. "The love of money is the root of all evil" becomes "Money is the root of all evil". This has created a dualistic attitude in our society, in that since the gaining of money is in itself immoral, attempting to gain money by moral means is hypocritical, and therefore it is more honest to drop morality entirely in the gaining of money. This attitude has bled through society, and seems to be present in this mailing list, as well. There are two aspects of transferring knowledge from one person to another. The first is for the 1st person to state the knowledge. The second is for the 2nd person to understand that knowledge. Giving the 1st an obligation to pass on the knowledge does not give that person the ability to allow the 2nd person to understand it. Teaching is both a difficult to obtain skill and hard work. Refusal to release knowledge may be harmful to humanity, but forcing someone to work without payment is also harmful to humanity. Not charging people for being taught, even those who can afford it, is helpful to humanity. But giving knowledge to a person in such a way that they will not value it is harmful to humanity. And, in our society, if we do not charge for something, people will generally assume that it is not valuable. For those who cannot afford to pay, but are embarrassed to say so, they are dwelling too much on their ego, and they don't have a true desire to learn. If they truly desire to learn, they will find a way. It is wonderful to be able to get teachers who will teach without compensation. But to do so can, and, in our society does, have the side effect of withholding knowledge from the public, by excluding those who need payment in order to impart the knowledge. What is better for humanity: For someone with a great deal of knowledge to teach to work as a ditchdigger so that, for their two weeks vacation, they can go out and teach people for free, or those who take a salary from teaching, so that they can afford to impart their knowledge all day long? Should public school teachers be willing to work without pay? Would our children get educated under such circumstances? By charging money, the New York Lodge can impart far more knowledge to far more people than they would if they attempted to make everything free. Due to years of following a policy of making everything free, we have a membership that is largely without funds to donate, regardless of willingness. We have high expenses, and those expenses must be met if we want to maintain a meeting hall. So we charge. We charge in such a way as to attract the maximum number of interested people to our programs. If someone is sufficiently interested to state a need to go for free, we let them in either for free or in exchange for volunteer work, depending on the circumstances. And it cannot be said, without knowledge of the specific circumstances involved, whether it is moral or immoral for a Lodge to charge for programs. And I am tired of seeing too many people here say in effect, "I don't want to have to make any sacrifices to gain knowledge, and I therefore think it is the job of the Lodge to make the sacrifices for me, so that I don't have to." Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:09:24 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Expenses of Lodges Message-ID: <3388FEE4.6F90@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Hi > I was a member of a lodge which had no money in the bank. However, whenever > there was a need to get anything done -- like a new roof or any special > program that needed to be organized, there was always volunteer donors who > came up with the needed funds. Just thought I should share this with you all. How did the donors get the money? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:29:29 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: To charge is to take, not to simply accept. You accept donations, you take fees. --- Jaqi. On Sun, 25 May 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > There is a whole class of New Age commercialists who charge > > fees for a panoply of services. I won't judge them, but also > > refuse to imitate them or take my chances on getting into the > > same karmic situation. > > What are the karmic consequences of accepting money? > > Bart Lidofsky > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:33:38 -0800 (AKDT) From: Jaqtarin Samantha Triele Subject: Re: Expenses of Lodges Message-ID: They probably worked for a business, which is very different from a lodge, as I understand a lodge to be defined. --- Jaqi. > How did the donors get the money? > > Bart Lidofsky > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:29:06 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Money, Fees, Morality Message-ID: <199705260529.WAA06079@palrel1.hp.com> An interesting discussion. Thanks to all who shared their thoughts. Let me add a few of mine about a related but different subject, earning and honorableness. Disclaimer: These are general remarks. I am not saying anything about the honorableness of any member in any lodge. First, I certainly agree with Bart's Axiom number 1 > The key to morality is one's true intentions. The parable of the Widow's Mite shows that intentions sound much more loudly than actual dollars. Good intentions behind a modest but honorable offering can multiply it as the mustard seed. I truly believe an organization will have adequate funds if they encourage a right spirit. In my former spiritual home most everything was based on voluntary donations. The lessons were an exception, but even there the modest fees were not usually enforced. Many people were responsible and donated what they could - either money or services. Others were freeloaders. You will probably always find this mix of people. (Amusing aside: the freeloaders were also the ones who rushed to the head of the refreshment tables and loaded their plates high with food.) Our founder did not exclude the freeloaders but pointed out some spiritual laws at work. A freeloader will invest so much effort to get something for free that he could have *earned* it much more easily. A person who makes an effort to express gratitude and some kind of payment within his means for instruction will see his money returned by spiritual law. I have actually experienced this myself and have seen it work for others too. I don't promise riches, but "water plenty and food enough." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:41:26 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: Wow. Sure are some *very* bizarre economic theories being postulated on this list. Sure glad the Adepts and HPB apparently looked upon the poor a bit more kindly. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:56:29 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: Just an opinion ... but ... The picture I get from the ML and SD, confirmed by whatever miniscule personal experiences I've had, is of the existance of a spiritual kingdom composed of beings of several different kingdoms, whose entire existances are composed of perceptions of the underlying patterns of growth that are templates for current human existance, knowledge of the trials and tribulations, struggles and sometimes intense pain that accompanies that growth, and hearts that have reached a stature such that virtually the totality of their energies are expended in attempts to facilitate human growth, and mitigate the suffering surrounding it. They seem partially willing to share some of the knowledge they possess, but the price of that wisdom is *its use*. From the hints in the ML, the SD, it seems that there *is* a kind of spiritual economics - a value system among the kingdom of servents: And the currency is composed of *the opportunity to serve*. HPB understood this. So did HSO, and CWL. Whatever their faults, whatever their failings ... they all understood it to be an honor almost beyond belief to be chosen to ... do what? ... to expend the totality of their life's energies on behalf of "poor orphan humanity" ... taking in return barely enough money to even stay warm and fed, and often recieving little but condemnation from the humanity they pledged to help. They seemed to understand themselves to be something like transformers in a power grid - receiving energy and knowledge from their sources ... and stepping them down into a form presentable to the humanity of the time. Were their personality levels to have begun believing that *they* possessed or generated that wisdom or energy, and begun believing that they should *use* their connection to that wisdom as a means of gaining whatever sticks or rocks or baubles pass for money at the time for their personal selves - or that (even more strange) that somehow the amount of sticks and rocks a personal self had accumulated was a measure of a person's spiritual stature, or worth to society, or fitness or qualifications to receive that wisdom - well anyone who believes that can come on over to Montana ... Elizabeth Clair Prophet is here - and she's got all the TS Masters plus a bunch more - and your "value" to society as measured by the coin of the realm is definately important to her. The Adepts chose a few people - we know that from the ML - did they believe material wealth was any measure of value whatsoever? Did *they* ever ask for payment? Well yes ... but it wasn't money - the payment they asked (or rather .. that was freely given) was that the wisdom and energy they gave be used in a life utterly devoted to the selfless service to humanity. We are living in the midst of an extremely materialistic age just now - even those things that were called "esoteric" a century ago are being bastardized and sold in the marketplace today - but maybe what we really need to do is maintain a vision of that genuine spiritual kingdom .. to model it to the best of our ability ... For myself ... my heart leaps at the ideal of the Buddha, the Christ, and the thousands of men and women that toil today on behalf of the poor, of those searching desperately for peace, or truth, or just plain food, people who thankfully believe that the clarity of their thought and size of their heart is a much more accurate measure of their worth to society than the thickness of their wallet. I've already received immensely more from the labours of HPB and others than I'd ever be able to pay for - I still feel a huge debt - but I also believe the method of their teaching was part of the lessons. HPB created a current of wisdom ... I was required to pay no coin to get it .. and hence could not even imagine charging a nickel to introduce anyone else to that chain. Whatever small use I've been able to figure out how to make of that stream of wisdom - either with philosophy or work with angels .. I'll give it free ... now and for the rest of my life - and silently bow deeply to the great ones ... for the immense honor of being able to do so. And I hope that sometime in the distant future whatever use I've managed to make of what I've recieved will earn me the right to serve in some slightly larger way. Are you being foolish Doss? I think not - I think you are prompted by a spirit ... a tradition ... that was literally around long before humanity had even conceived of the *concept* of money, and will be around long after that concept has been exposed as little other than a training tool for children still struggling to learn unselfishness. IMO - we should charge *NOTHING* for any lecture, any talk, any presentation, in any Theosophical group or lodge. Ever. We are recipients of a fragment of wisdom so far beyond such considerations that to charge for it is little other than a sign that we do not truly understand its value - or the value system from whence it came. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:52:19 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526125219.00737670@mail.eden.com> At 01:41 AM 5/26/97 -0400, JRC wrote: >Wow. Sure are some *very* bizarre economic theories being postulated on >this list. Sure glad the Adepts and HPB apparently looked upon the poor a >bit more kindly. > -JRC HPB wanted the poor to be fed on her death anniversary. And while she did not charge for anyone who came to her and met and discussed. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:01:55 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526130155.0071ad80@mail.eden.com> At 02:56 AM 5/26/97 -0400, JRC wrote: >Just an opinion ... but ... > The picture I get from the ML and SD, confirmed by whatever >miniscule personal experiences I've had, is of the existance of a >spiritual kingdom composed of beings of several different kingdoms, whose >entire existances are composed of perceptions of the underlying patterns >of growth that are templates for current human existance, knowledge of the >trials and tribulations, struggles and sometimes intense pain that >accompanies that growth, and hearts that have reached a stature such that >virtually the totality of their energies are expended in attempts to >facilitate human growth, and mitigate the suffering surrounding it. > They seem partially willing to share some of the knowledge they >possess, but the price of that wisdom is *its use*. From the hints in the >ML, the SD, it seems that there *is* a kind of spiritual economics - a >value system among the kingdom of servents: And the currency is composed >of *the opportunity to serve*. HPB understood this. So did HSO, and CWL. >Whatever their faults, whatever their failings ... they all understood it >to be an honor almost beyond belief to be chosen to ... do what? ... to >expend the totality of their life's energies on behalf of "poor orphan >humanity" ... taking in return barely enough money to even stay warm and >fed, and often recieving little but condemnation from the humanity they >pledged to help. They seemed to understand themselves to be something like >transformers in a power grid - receiving energy and knowledge from their >sources ... and stepping them down into a form presentable to the humanity >of the time. Were their personality levels to have begun believing that >*they* possessed or generated that wisdom or energy, and begun believing >that they should *use* their connection to that wisdom as a means of >gaining whatever sticks or rocks or baubles pass for money at the time for >their personal selves - or that (even more strange) that somehow the >amount of sticks and rocks a personal self had accumulated was a measure >of a person's spiritual stature, or worth to society, or fitness or >qualifications to receive that wisdom - well anyone who believes that can >come on over to Montana ... Elizabeth Clair Prophet is here - and she's >got all the TS Masters plus a bunch more - and your "value" to society as >measured by the coin of the realm is definately important to her. > The Adepts chose a few people - we know that from the ML - did >they believe material wealth was any measure of value whatsoever? Did >*they* ever ask for payment? Well yes ... but it wasn't money - the >payment they asked (or rather .. that was freely given) was that the >wisdom and energy they gave be used in a life utterly devoted to the >selfless service to humanity. > We are living in the midst of an extremely materialistic age just >now - even those things that were called "esoteric" a century ago are >being bastardized and sold in the marketplace today - but maybe what we >really need to do is maintain a vision of that genuine spiritual kingdom >.. to model it to the best of our ability ... > For myself ... my heart leaps at the ideal of the Buddha, the >Christ, and the thousands of men and women that toil today on behalf of >the poor, of those searching desperately for peace, or truth, or just >plain food, people who thankfully believe that the clarity of their >thought and size of their heart is a much more accurate measure of their >worth to society than the thickness of their wallet. > I've already received immensely more from the labours of HPB and >others than I'd ever be able to pay for - I still feel a huge debt - but I >also believe the method of their teaching was part of the lessons. HPB >created a current of wisdom ... I was required to pay no coin to get it >.. and hence could not even imagine charging a nickel to introduce anyone >else to that chain. Whatever small use I've been able to figure out how to >make of that stream of wisdom - either with philosophy or work with angels >.. I'll give it free ... now and for the rest of my life - and silently >bow deeply to the great ones ... for the immense honor of being able to do >so. And I hope that sometime in the distant future whatever use I've >managed to make of what I've recieved will earn me the right to serve in >some slightly larger way. > Are you being foolish Doss? I think not - I think you are prompted >by a spirit ... a tradition ... that was literally around long before >humanity had even conceived of the *concept* of money, and will be around >long after that concept has been exposed as little other than a training >tool for children still struggling to learn unselfishness. > IMO - we should charge *NOTHING* for any lecture, any talk, any >presentation, in any Theosophical group or lodge. Ever. We are recipients >of a fragment of wisdom so far beyond such considerations that to charge >for it is little other than a sign that we do not truly understand its >value - or the value system from whence it came. > -JRC A wonderful post. It may be worthwhile to stop and ponder over what you have said. Some of us may be able to get a glimpse of how we can prevent ourselves heading the wrong way. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:05:51 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Expenses of Lodges Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526130551.0073ce04@mail.eden.com> When I mentioned Lodge, it is the same as a Branch or a Study Center. I hope this removes any confusion over terminology. It was composed of members of TS and they were at the same time members of the local Branch/Study Center. The members came from every cross section of the society. .......doss At 12:32 AM 5/26/97 -0400, Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: >They probably worked for a business, which is very different from a lodge, >as I understand a lodge to be defined. > >--- >Jaqi. > >> How did the donors get the money? >> >> Bart Lidofsky >> > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:09:59 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Money, Fees, Morality Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526130959.00715424@mail.eden.com> At 01:29 AM 5/26/97 -0400, Titus Roth wrote: >In my former spiritual home most everything was based on voluntary >donations. The lessons were an exception, but even there the modest fees were >not usually enforced. Many people were responsible and donated what they >could - either money or services. Others were freeloaders. You will probably >always find this mix of people. > >(Amusing aside: the freeloaders were also the ones who rushed to the head of >the refreshment tables and loaded their plates high with food.) In the eastern traditions, it is considered high honor and a good deed to feed fellow human beings. So no one looked at *free loaders* as free loaders. In the present day western world, the view is radically different. my 2 cents worth. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:18:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Cruelty Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526141828.006ea864@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is another letter Krishnaji wrote to the students of his schools. ........doss =================================================== Cruelty is an infectious disease and one must strictly guard oneself against it. Some students seem to have this peculiar infection and they somehow gradually dominate the others. Probably they feel it is very manly, for their elders are often cruel in their words, in their attitudes, in their gestures, in their pride. This cruelty exists in the world. The responsibility of the student - and please remember with what significance we are using that word - is to avoid any form of cruelty. Once many years ago I was invited to talk at a school in California and as I entered the school a boy of ten or so was passing me with a large bird, caught in a trap, whose legs were broken. I stopped and looked at the boy without saying a word. His face expressed fear and when I finished the talk and came out the boy - a stranger - came up to me with tears in his eyes and said, 'Sir, it will never happen again.' He was afraid that I would tell the headmaster and there would be a scene about it and as I didn't say a word to either the boy or the headmaster about the cruel incident, his awareness of the terrible thing he had done made him realise the enormity of the act. It is important to be aware of one's own activities and if there is affection then cruelty has no place in our life at any time. In western countries you see birds carefully nurtured and later in the season shot for sport and then eaten. The cruelty of hunting, killing small animals, has become part of our civilisation, like war, like torture, and the acts of terrorists and kidnappers. In our intimate personal relationships there is also a great deal of cruelty, anger, hurting each other. The world has become a dangerous place in which to live and in our schools any form of coercion, threat, anger must be totally and completely avoided for all these harden the heart and mind, and affection cannot coexist with cruelty. You understand, as a student, how important it is to realise that any form of cruelty not only hardens your heart but perverts your thinking, distorts your actions. The mind, like the heart, is a delicate instrument, sensitive and very capable, and when cruelty and oppression touch it then there is a hardening of the self Affection, love, has no centre as the self. Now having read this and having understood so far what is said, what will you do about it? You have studied what has been said, you are learning the content of these words; what then is your action? Your response is not merely to study and learn but also to act. Most of us know and are aware of all the implications of cruelty and of what it actually does both outwardly and inwardly, and leave it at that without doing anything about it - thinking one thing and doing just the opposite. This not only breeds a great deal of conflict but also hypocrisy. Most students do not like to be hypocrites; they like to look at facts but they do not always act. So the responsibility of the student is to see the facts about cruelty and without any persuasion or cajoling understand what is implied and do something about it. The doing is perhaps a greater responsibility. People generally live with ideas and beliefs totally unrelated to their daily life and so this naturally becomes hypocrisy. So don't be a hypocrite - which doesn't mean you must be rude, aggressive or overly critical. When there is affection there is inevitably courtesy without hypocrisy. What is the responsibility of the teacher who has studied, learned, and acts toward the student? Cruelty has many forms. A look, a gesture, a sharp remark, and above all comparison. Our whole educational system is based on comparison. A is better than B and so B must conform to or imitate A. This in essence is cruelty, and ultimately its expression is examinations; so what is the responsibility of the educator who sees the truth of this? How will he teach any subject without reward and punishment, knowing that there must be some kind of report indicating the capacity of the student? Can the teacher do this? Is it compatible with affection? If the central reality of affection is there, has comparison any place at all? Can the teacher eliminate in himself the pain of comparison? Our whole civilisation is based on hierarchical comparison both outwardly and inwardly which denies the sense of deep affection. Can we eliminate from our minds the better, the more, the stupid, the clever, this whole comparative thinking? If the teacher has understood the pain of comparison what is his responsibility in his teaching and in his action? A person who has really grasped the significance of the pain of comparison is acting from intelligence. 1st February, 1980 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:22:43 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Cruelty Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526142243.00718794@mail.eden.com> Hello I just posted a letter Krishnaji wrote to the students of his schools in 1980 on the subject of cruelty. On re-reading it, I cannot but notice the fundamentally same idea of cruelty that was presented in At the Feet of the Master is in it. ....doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:10:30 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: <3389A7E6.6A2E@sprynet.com> Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: > > To charge is to take, not to simply accept. You accept donations, you > take fees. > On Sun, 25 May 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > > What are the karmic consequences of accepting money? Your statement does not answer the question. Bart From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 97 11:11:42 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Karmic consequences Message-ID: <199705261511.LAA26505@leo.vsla.edu> In response to my statement that I wouldn't trade places with those who charge for "spiritual services," Bart asks what are the karmic consequences of accepting money for such. Of course, I don't know what those consequences are for individuals. I do think that Rajneesh, Prophet, the Bakkers, Hubbard, et al have a price to pay for their avarice, and would prefer not to find out that price through personal experience. But the consequences for society are clearly evident. On one hand, the whole idea of esoteric wisdom is cheapened and made suspicious to most people because of the behavior of money-grubbing "teachers." On the other hand, the minority that pursues such things is left having to wade through a morass of commercially-oriented counterfeits in search of genuine spirituality. The problem is that *first* people talk about charging money "to meet expenses." But in fact, people *love* money. (Some psychological research found that the three most powerful words in advertising are 1.You 2.Love 3.Money) So that once their love of money is activated by finding out that they can receive it for their "spiritual pursuits," they start being *motivated* by money and making choices based on what will gain them (or their organization) the most. It's a slippery slope. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:11:35 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Expenses of Lodges Message-ID: <3389A827.E9F@sprynet.com> Jaqtarin Samantha Triele wrote: > > They probably worked for a business, which is very different from a lodge, > as I understand a lodge to be defined. > > How did the donors get the money? How do you understand a Lodge to be defined? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:27:21 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Money, Fees, Morality Message-ID: <3389ABD9.405C@sprynet.com> Titus Roth wrote: > Our founder did not exclude the freeloaders but pointed out some spiritual > laws at work. A freeloader will invest so much effort to get something for > free that he could have *earned* it much more easily. A person who makes an > effort to express gratitude and some kind of payment within his means > for instruction will see his money returned by spiritual law. I have actually > experienced this myself and have seen it work for others too. I don't promise > riches, but "water plenty and food enough." The concepts of your founder are found in many Eastern and Native American cultures. I happen to like the concept, myself. Bart From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:48:43 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: <3389B0DB.2569@sprynet.com> JRC wrote: > IMO - we should charge *NOTHING* for any lecture, any talk, any > presentation, in any Theosophical group or lodge. Ever. We are recipients > of a fragment of wisdom so far beyond such considerations that to charge > for it is little other than a sign that we do not truly understand its > value - or the value system from whence it came. I think we should disseminate the knowledge to as wide a body of people who might benefit from it as possible. I guess you want it kept to a very select few. Bart From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:52:10 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <3389B1AA.4129@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > At 01:41 AM 5/26/97 -0400, JRC wrote: > >Wow. Sure are some *very* bizarre economic theories being postulated on > >this list. Sure glad the Adepts and HPB apparently looked upon the poor a > >bit more kindly. > > -JRC > > HPB wanted the poor to be fed on her death anniversary. And while she did > not charge for anyone who came to her and met and discussed. She also smoked and ate meat. Sometimes, in order to benefit humanity, you might do some things, which, if viewed in a vacuum, might not benefit humanity. Luckily, we do not live in a vacuum, and can look at the totality of things, and not look at any one issue as a litmus test. For example, would you say that if someone is not a member of the E.S., then they are not a good Theosophist? Bart From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:54:06 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Money, Fees, Morality Message-ID: <3389B21E.2021@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > In the eastern traditions, it is considered high honor and a good deed to > feed fellow human beings. So no one looked at *free loaders* as free loaders. > > In the present day western world, the view is radically different. And, from your comments, I must assume that you think I am currently living in an area where eastern traditions are the ones that are practiced? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:05:50 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Karmic consequences Message-ID: <3389B4DE.73C2@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > Of course, I don't know what those consequences are for > individuals. I do think that Rajneesh, Prophet, the Bakkers, > Hubbard, et al have a price to pay for their avarice, and would > prefer not to find out that price through personal experience. In avarice, an imbalance is created. In charging a fair fee for services rendered, a balance is created. The difference between avarice and a fair fee is intent. > But the consequences for society are clearly evident. On one > hand, the whole idea of esoteric wisdom is cheapened and made > suspicious to most people because of the behavior of money-grubbing > "teachers." On the other hand, the minority that pursues such > things is left having to wade through a morass of > commercially-oriented counterfeits in search of genuine > spirituality. I have long promoted the various skeptics organizations as a means to learn about critical thinking. Unfortunately, many people interested in the esoteric do not realize the value of discriminaton. > The problem is that *first* people talk about charging money "to > meet expenses." But in fact, people *love* money. How would you define "money"? Given your definition, how is it possible to love money? > their organization) the most. It's a slippery slope. The "slippery slope" analogy is not a valid logical construct. Bart From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:26:42 -0400 (EDT) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Desire Message-ID: <970526122641_170724717@emout03.mail.aol.com> I believe some in the group have a tendency to misinterpret what Nisargadatta Maharaj meant when he stated: Desire nothing ... for that you may surely have. His wisdom is sometimes quite subtle. Perhaps a comment or two will serve to clarify this matter. Comment 1 (a poem actually, by Benjamin Mays) We have got a single minute --- only sixty seconds in it. We didn't seek it, didn't choose it, but it's ours; we can't refuse it. When it's past time won't erase it; we're the losers if we waste it. We can't keep it; must expend it --- and account for how we spend it. Just a single tiny minute ... but Eternity is in it! Comment 2 I would suggest (to Jaqi and others) that it is probably this "minute" that Maharaj had in mind when he gave us the quote mentioned earlier. To Maharaj and Mays (and, yes, DSArthur) the most important minute in our lives .. is the one we are experiencing right now. The previous one is already gone and "time won't erase it." And the next one --- is unattainable. Due to the linearity of time we can only experience THIS moment. The last one is gone forever and the "next" one never arrives. That is why Mays wrote: "we have got a minute ..." . But what can be accomplished in "a single minute?" A vacation? A delicious meal? Earning a lot of money? For this is what desire is all about---acquiring, over time, that which we presently do not have. And yet .. there is one thing that can be accomplished in "a single minute." That is harmonizing (being "in tune", if you will) with the universe. Essentially, this involves "doing what needs to be done" in both thought and deed ... not because it is desirable or rewarding but simply because it needs to be done. Desire is not a factor here because desires (and their fulfillment) generally require a certain amount of time ... and, as already noted, "we have got a minute ...". So then, Maharaj and Mays and others have urged us to "seize the moment." And, instinctively, we know what needs to be done. Oh yes, to be sure, we don't always do it. In fact, we don't even mostly do it .. but that doesn't alter the fact that we "know." From this perspective we should be able to see that desire is not an impetus to action but a distraction. Maharaj is telling us that the secret of existence, of happiness, of bliss (and, conversely, the avoidance of suffering) is ... doing for the universe what needs to be done --- not because it is "desirable" but simply because it needs to be done. And we can do it in "a single minute." The fact is, it must be done in a single minute because, as Mays has pointed out, that is all the time we'll ever have. Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:10:09 -0600 (MDT) From: JRC Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > JRC wrote: > > IMO - we should charge *NOTHING* for any lecture, any talk, any > > presentation, in any Theosophical group or lodge. Ever. We are recipients > > of a fragment of wisdom so far beyond such considerations that to charge > > for it is little other than a sign that we do not truly understand its > > value - or the value system from whence it came. > > I think we should disseminate the knowledge to as wide a body of people > who might benefit from it as possible. I guess you want it kept to a > very select few. > No of course I don't want it kept for a "select few" - and the fact that you would believe the first sentence in my post implies this is a good demonstration of the last sentence. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:19:22 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Money, Fees, Morality Message-ID: <199705261719.KAA15384@palrel1.hp.com> I wrote: >> In my former spiritual home most everything was based on voluntary >> donations. The lessons were an exception, but even there the modest fees >> were not usually enforced. Many people were responsible and donated what >> they could - either money or services. Others were freeloaders. You will >> probably always find this mix of people. (Amusing aside: the freeloaders >> were also the ones who rushed to the head of the refreshment tables and >> loaded their plates high with food.) M K Ramadoss wrote: > In the eastern traditions, it is considered high honor and a good deed to > feed fellow human beings. So no one looked at *free loaders* as free > loaders. > In the present day western world, the view is radically different. This may be a difference between East and West. Though I can't say for sure, I suspect the fellow human beings fed in eastern traditions were the hapless victims of society who could not afford to pay. My definition of a free-loader is someone would could pay in some form, but doesn't. In any case, one has no right to make any global judgments about about their inmost character. What motivated my statement is the realization that the person who can pay will get much further by an attitude of earning than by accepting handouts for nothing. Maybe the compassionate Mother East is more correct than stern Father West but I suspect the spirit of both do not really contradict one another. > my 2 cents worth. If offered in the right spirit, they are worth millions ;) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:31:43 EST From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Subject: Re: Thoughts about the Festivals (Sveinn) Message-ID: <199705261831.2096500@microfone.net> Hi Sveinn -- Regarding your post of 15 May on the Festivals: The two points you questioned (of my earlier posting on the Festivals, part of a thread on Wesak) were 1) > and the lesser festivals of the other nine moons, and 2) > "orthodox" theosophy Taking the 2nd point first, I don't disagree with you, but I was trying to write in a style acceptable to the group readers of theos-l. Many long-time readers of this listserver have seen discussions/arguments on "small t. vs. large T, theosophy/Theosophy," and t/Theosophy when compared/contrasted with "orthodox, non-orthodox, and neo- theosophy." That is why I put quotation maarks around the word. Some theosophists are so strict on this that they do not accept anything after HPB's death; I suspect they are a very small minority of overall TSA membership, but there have been periods in the last few years when they had a disproportionate voice on theos-l. A large group of our Society does not accept CWLeadbeater's writings, a subset of that group lumps Annie Besant together with CWL, the split over Krishnamurti continues . . . and so on. The teachings on the Festivals are predominantly from the Bailey writings, and so I chose the wording I did in an attempt to head off any repeat of some earlier and agitated threads. But you are right, imo -- there is only one Ageless Wisdom, even though "the paths to God are as many as the ways of men," as the Gita says. Regarding the lesser festivals: You wrote that the meditation cycles following the moon periods are well known among theosophists -- I'm not so sure about that. Ours is such a diverse group that it naturally segments into folks drawn to study of the SD, or astrology, or tarot, or "New Age" or . . . whatever, but I haven't noticed any real emphasis here in the USA about the cycles of the moon among the rank and file membership. Is it different in your country? You also asked about references in the Bailey works about the Winter Solstice: There is an independently-published book entitled MASTER INDEX OF THE TIBETAN AND ALICE A. BAILEY BOOKS which does not mention any listing of the Winter Solstice, per se. There are *many* references to the significance of the Cardinal points, etc. in the book ESOTERIC ASTROLOGY, but the Festivals in context of the Bailey work refers to the creative meditation periods associated with each full moon and, especially, the three major periods of Easter, Wesak, and Christ's Festival/World Invocation Day associated with Aries, Taurus and Gemini. The remaining nine full moon periods are referred to as "lesser" only in deference to these three, the spiritual "highpoint" of the year. The Winter Solstice is six month's from now, and (again, in the Bailey works) is associated with the expression and manifestation of the forces contacted during the period of the three major festivals. That is also important as the "horizontal" or physical aspect of the annual work matching up with the vertical aspect of spiritual contact occurring now. You ended your post with a comment that "since there are a number of different teachings, not all can be right." I agree; that is why we are called upon to exercise both discrimination and tolerance, recognizing that what we know is right *for us* may not be universally applicable. Jim >Attention to: Jim Meier > >>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 06:35:58 EST >>From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) >>From: THEOS-L digest 1007 > >>According to Bailey, the Wesak Festival is the 2nd of three full moon >>festivals that make up the Higher Interlude cycle of the spiritual year. >>The 1st is Easter (Aries) and the 3rd is this month's full moon of Gemini on >>May 22nd. The 3rd Festival is also known as World Invocation Day, and the >>idea of the three Spiritual Festivals (and the lesser festivals at the other >>nine moons) is one of the main differences between the Bailey teachings and >>"orthodox" Theosophy. >> > >I wondered about some sentences in your letter, and stumbled over two. >Those two sentences are: > >>(and the lesser festivals at the other nine moons) > >>"orthodox" Theosophy. > >Commenting on your text about the Festivals I can now see that I made a >mistake by using the word "moved." I was thinking in Icelandic and the >selected English word is not accurate for what I had in mind. > >I had in mind to remind us about the Cardinal Signs Festivals, and >especially about The Winter Solstice Festival. The theory about the Cardinal >Signs Festivals is well known to many students of Theosophy. And also; the >theory of the full moon periods is well known. >By my understanding, the greater Festivals do not depend on the cycles of >the moon. > >Let us look at this again, and I will try to explain my mind. > >By The Ancient Northern Cosmogony, the Winter Solstice Festival is believed >to be the most spiritual of all the Great Festivals. It is believed to be >the Great Event when The Sun God - The Solar Logos - looks into the lives of all >men. Looks into the life of every man, wherever in the worlds that man may >be. That is a blessing. That is the Holy gift, given to us every year at >Christmas. >This great Festival of Love and Brotherhood is not connected with the period >of full moon. > >At the Winter Solstice Festival, the other spiritual Festivals of the year, >are synthesized. > > >About the other sentence: >"orthodox" Theosophy. > >There is no >"orthodox" Theosophy -- it does not exist. >Our understanding and presentation of Theosophy can be "orthodox." >Persons and groups can be "orthodox." >But Theosophy can not be limited by our limited understanding. > >Theosophy is a Way. It is a Pillar. > >Regarding the Festivals and the writings of Bailey. >Are you certain that the Winter Solstice Festival is not introduced in those >books. >Can you look into this? >One must have in mind that the writings of Bailey are of different quality. >I recall, that at one time when I was looking into one of those books, I >noticed the sentence: "notice that my first books are different." I am >quotating to this sentence, from my memory. >You see; A. Bailey wrote for a group - not only for one single person. > >Other Ashrams have presented "Teaching" in this century, through a number of >books. On certain ideas there is a basic difference. Not can all be right. >Let us therefore be careful when we decide on what is true. >It is necessary to make a comparative study, free from biasness. > > >Sveinn Freyr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:17:53 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <199705261901.PAA01675@NetGSI.com> Re bookstores, our local small bookstore just folded up. They couldn't afford to give discounts, had no seats or coffee, and only a small stock appealing mainly to the mass markets. Re Barnes & Noble, one just started up in my area (at last!). B&N, Borders, and other large bookstores have the right idea-- long hours, seats & sofas to sit in, coffee to drink, music in the background, bathroom facilities, and so on. Besides, they stock my books. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:25:01 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Whats in a guru? Message-ID: <199705261901.PAA01682@NetGSI.com> >> ... the moment you come to me and ask me, "Is a guru necessary for >> understanding?" then I say, "No." On the contrary it is destructive. > >A blanket statement that is contradicted many times over. Read the >writings of Kirpal Singh, Milarepa, Yogananda, Yukteswar, Sai Baba >.. etc This touches on a very sensitive and controversial subject. Many, including Tibetan Buddhism, insist on the necessity of a competent guru. K, and others, insist on the very opposite. I think that a guru is, indeed, necessary. However, I have a broad definition of just what a guru is. To me, a guru is anyone or anything that teaches us something. Thus a good book can be a guru, if we learn from it. K's problem was not in our 'having' a guru so much as our 'worshipping' one (which is our natural tendency). Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 97 17:21:51 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Arguing with Bart Message-ID: <199705262121.RAA27156@leo.vsla.edu> Since 7 of 12 posts this digest are from Bart, I have used a person's name in the header despite netiquette. My post will respond to some arguments, but more than that to the whole tone and technique of argumentation. I gave a five paragraph response to a single question posed by Bart yesterday about karmic consequences. My goal was to try to explain my perspective; Bart's goal seems to be to "win" by harassing his "adversaries" with questions or accusations putting them on the defensive. e.g. to Jaqi-- > How do you understand a Lodge to be defined? What difference does this make? If he answers, won't you find some petty point to argue about, again putting him on the defensive? to JRC-- > who might benefit from it as possible. I guess you want it kept to a > very select few. How in the world can that be deduced from his comment? to Doss-- > look at any one issue as a litmus test. For example, would you say that > if someone is not a member of the E.S., then they are not a good > Theosophist? Huh? > > And, from your comments, I must assume that you think I am currently > living in an area where eastern traditions are the ones that are > practiced? What? He's obviously suggesting that westerners have something to learn from easterners in this regard. to me: > > How would you define "money"? Given your definition, how is it possible > to love money? I won't try to define money for you, Bart, nor explain how it is possible to love money. This question feels like harassment coming from a win/lose perspective rather than an honest approach to dialogue. > > The "slippery slope" analogy is not a valid logical construct. What in the world does this mean? How can any analogy be a "valid logical construct"? The technique that I allowed myself to be harassed with for far too long by someone else on this list is this: 1. Take the position that others have to explain themselves to you, but that you don't owe them an explanation of anything. 2. Get them to invest time and energy in trying to explain their point of view. 3. Then pick whatever points of their explanation you want to challenge, ignore the rest, and further demand that they explain those. 4. Maintain the position that they must defend and explain themselves, and see how long you can get them to play that game. If you can get them to expend great amounts of time and energy explaining and defending their point of view, and all you have to do is demand further explanations and defenses, you "win." Having been dragged into this game, like a complete idiot, over and over by many people on the Internet, I have at last come to recognize it, and say "Hell no, I won't go." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:36:39 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Money, Fees, Morality Message-ID: <199705262136.PAA29535@mailmx.micron.net> Titus wrote: >(Amusing aside: the freeloaders were also the ones who rushed to the head of >the refreshment tables and loaded their plates high with food.) >Our founder did not exclude the freeloaders but pointed out some spiritual >laws at work. A freeloader will invest so much effort to get something for >free that he could have *earned* it much more easily. A person who makes an >effort to express gratitude and some kind of payment within his means >for instruction will see his money returned by spiritual law. I have actually >experienced this myself and have seen it work for others too. I don't promise >riches, but "water plenty and food enough." Well, I've learned from a current discussion on theos that "freeloaders" are clearly unpleasant and undesirable. They should be "discriminated against" (per Tom) and are even, perhaps pathetically, "amusing." I shall be dogged in my lookout for them. However, I have also learned that I can breathe a sigh of relief and, consequently, find my heart laden with gratitude - for after reading your post, Titus, I understand that "freeloaders" can only be males. Whew! Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:13:31 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Charging Money Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526221331.00717550@mail.eden.com> At 11:52 AM 5/26/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> At 01:41 AM 5/26/97 -0400, JRC wrote: >> >Wow. Sure are some *very* bizarre economic theories being postulated on >> >this list. Sure glad the Adepts and HPB apparently looked upon the poor a >> >bit more kindly. >> > -JRC >> >> HPB wanted the poor to be fed on her death anniversary. And while she did >> not charge for anyone who came to her and met and discussed. > > She also smoked and ate meat. It does not bother me. What counts is what she gave all of us. > Sometimes, in order to benefit humanity, you might do some things, >which, if viewed in a vacuum, might not benefit humanity. Luckily, we do >not live in a vacuum, and can look at the totality of things, and not >look at any one issue as a litmus test. For example, would you say that >if someone is not a member of the E.S., then they are not a good >Theosophist? I don't think anyone can judge anyone else whether they are a good or not a good Theosophist. Personally I don't judge. Personally to me it matters very little whether someone is a member of E.S. or not so long as an E.S. member does not boast as having some some superior or special connection or special status or previlege spiritually or otherwise. ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:14:27 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Money, Fees, Morality Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526221427.007327ec@mail.eden.com> At 11:54 AM 5/26/97 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> In the eastern traditions, it is considered high honor and a good deed to >> feed fellow human beings. So no one looked at *free loaders* as free loaders. >> >> In the present day western world, the view is radically different. > > And, from your comments, I must assume that you think I am currently >living in an area where eastern traditions are the ones that are >practiced? > > Bart Lidofsky > No. .........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:17:53 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Money, Fees, Morality Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526221753.00718978@mail.eden.com> At 01:19 PM 5/26/97 -0400, Titus Roth wrote: >I wrote: > >>> In my former spiritual home most everything was based on voluntary >>> donations. The lessons were an exception, but even there the modest fees >>> were not usually enforced. Many people were responsible and donated what >>> they could - either money or services. Others were freeloaders. You will >>> probably always find this mix of people. (Amusing aside: the freeloaders >>> were also the ones who rushed to the head of the refreshment tables and >>> loaded their plates high with food.) > >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> In the eastern traditions, it is considered high honor and a good deed to >> feed fellow human beings. So no one looked at *free loaders* as free >> loaders. > >> In the present day western world, the view is radically different. > >This may be a difference between East and West. Though I can't say for sure, I >suspect the fellow human beings fed in eastern traditions were the hapless >victims of society who could not afford to pay. > >My definition of a free-loader is someone would could pay in some form, but >doesn't. In any case, one has no right to make any global judgments about >about their inmost character. What motivated my statement is the realization >that the person who can pay will get much further by an attitude of earning >than by accepting handouts for nothing. > >Maybe the compassionate Mother East is more correct than stern Father West >but I suspect the spirit of both do not really contradict one another. > >> my 2 cents worth. > >If offered in the right spirit, they are worth millions ;) > I hope a time will come when everyone will expect nothing from man or God. In the meanwhile let us do what we can to help people change their hearts. .......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:23:35 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Arguing with Bart Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970526222335.0071a044@mail.eden.com> At 05:22 PM 5/26/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >Since 7 of 12 posts this digest are from Bart, I have used a >person's name in the header despite netiquette. My post >will respond to some arguments, but more than that to the whole >tone and technique of argumentation. > >I gave a five paragraph response to a single question posed by >Bart yesterday about karmic consequences. My goal was to try >to explain my perspective; Bart's goal seems to be to "win" by >harassing his "adversaries" with questions or accusations putting them on the >defensive. > >e.g. to Jaqi-- >> How do you understand a Lodge to be defined? > >What difference does this make? If he answers, won't you find >some petty point to argue about, again putting him on the >defensive? > >to JRC-- >> who might benefit from it as possible. I guess you want it kept to a >> very select few. > >How in the world can that be deduced from his comment? > >to Doss-- >> look at any one issue as a litmus test. For example, would you say that >> if someone is not a member of the E.S., then they are not a good >> Theosophist? > >Huh? >> >> And, from your comments, I must assume that you think I am currently >> living in an area where eastern traditions are the ones that are >> practiced? > >What? He's obviously suggesting that westerners have something >to learn from easterners in this regard. > >to me: >> >> How would you define "money"? Given your definition, how is it possible >> to love money? > >I won't try to define money for you, Bart, nor explain how it is >possible to love money. This question feels like harassment >coming from a win/lose perspective rather than an honest >approach to dialogue. >> >> The "slippery slope" analogy is not a valid logical construct. > >What in the world does this mean? How can any analogy be a >"valid logical construct"? > >The technique that I allowed myself to be harassed with for far >too long by someone else on this list is this: >1. Take the position that others have to explain themselves to >you, but that you don't owe them an explanation of anything. >2. Get them to invest time and energy in trying to >explain their point of view. >3. Then pick whatever points of their explanation >you want to challenge, ignore the rest, and further demand that >they explain those. >4. Maintain the position that they must defend and explain >themselves, and see how long you can get them to play that game. >If you can get them to expend great amounts of time and energy >explaining and defending their point of view, and all you have >to do is demand further explanations and defenses, you "win." > >Having been dragged into this game, like a complete idiot, over >and over by many people on the Internet, I have at last come to >recognize it, and say "Hell no, I won't go." > Dear Paul: I think this whole question of charging is very relevant and important. Just a couple of weeks ago, I ran into a msg where a well known speaker was reported to be charging $35,000 (yes 35,000) for some mantra and in one after noon the speaker had about 10-15 takers -- guess where. where else other than CA. The speaker is already a multi-millionaire (10-20 million) from his books tapes etc. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:09:05 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Arguing with Bart Message-ID: <3389FBF0.4208@earthlink.net> > Since 7 of 12 posts this digest are from Bart, I have used a > person's name in the header despite netiquette. My post > will respond to some arguments, but more than that to the whole > tone and technique of argumentation. Paul, you are quite right in your assessment... Bart's emphasis is not one of searching for truth but more that of the "path of black Magic" as HPB refers to it...with a desire to engage in endless misunderstanding. The solution is of course to ignore the posts which engage in such... Love & Peace, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:21:06 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970525222125.0072de34@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >Let me add my 2 cents worth. Even if I have spent years and a lot of effort >(which can be measured by time x hourly rate) and have found or learnt >something (especially spiritual) which I think can help even a singly human >being, I feel it is my responsibility not to charge anything. May be I am >foolish in this day and age when everything costs money. Im my world you are in the genuine and only true esoteric tradition by taking this position. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:57:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <970526195700_2086791783@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-26 15:06:16 EDT, you write: > Besides, they >stock my books. Higher praise no author can give. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:56:05 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: krishna-j Message-ID: <199705270013.UAA12917@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Doss says about Krishnamurti's ideas that they are ">an attack on something one strongly believes in.> and that's why some people are turned off by Krishnamurti. I'd like to present you with the idea that Krishnamurti's way is a more modern way of expressing Theosophical ideas. Not taking any belief for granted, but examining it thoroughly to find out where it comes from, what it means, and whether it's actually valid for the individual who's examining it, is part of theospophical ideology. And even so, after you've adopted a belief for yourself, the idea is to reexamine it in light of newer learnings and experiences. It's an ever changing pattern. I think that's what Krishnamurti says, but he's not the only one. He expresses things in his own way, but I think his theosophical upbringing shows up in what he talks about. It dependsd upon whom the individual comprehends the best. Harry Van Gelder also taught us "don't believe in anything... Question all beliefs. If you've found something that rings true, adopt is as a theory, temporarily" etc. etc. As for myself, I use 2 measuring rods for beliefs. one is the usual good theosophical one, "does it help evolution, or hinder it? Does it go with the stream, or against it?" The other is that I like to use beliefs that contribute something positive to my well being, and other people's well being, or the universe, whatever is being viewed. My beliefs mustn't hold me back unnecessarily. This pragmatic way of adopting beliefs grew out of Serge King's 7th Kahuna principle. "effectiveness is the measure of Truth." If it works, without hurting anyone, use it. A corollary to this principle is that different people use different belief systems, and that a good shaman, even though basically he has his/her own belief system, can operate within lots of other people's belief systems to help them. To end with, one must realize that human knowledge and communication depends on a framework of beliefs. We can coordinate our watches, and thus each other's schedules, because we all believe that the sun rises on schedule in the morning and sets on schedule at night. The sun rising and setting is a belief we've all agreed upon, derived from what we perceive. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:56:15 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: who,how Message-ID: <199705270013.UAA13019@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Jaqui To me, the next step, after you're able to put yourself into the other person's shoes etc., is to improve your skills for helping. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:25:14 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: price tag Message-ID: <199705270042.UAA02440@ultra1.dreamscape.com> At my lodge we always kept a basket near the door, with a sign on it, but there was no crass demand to contribute. I don't think our dues money was enough to cover our costs, which consisted mainly of renting our meeting hall, and mailing notices. I can see a study center not charging, usually, if they can help it. Perhaps an alternative would be to have a fund raiser once or twice a year. We once had a very successful one, but it was work. We had a pot luck dinner, during which a few amateur musicians entertained (without fee), such as a guitarist. People ate on little card tables with pretty checkered table cloths. After dinner we showed a video tape. It happens to have been one of the Krishnamurti ones, because that's what we were studying at the time, but Wheaton has enough interesting video tapes to borrow, to suit various tastes. We had quite a nice turnout for that event. Someone remarked that they attended several mediocre programs. I think that's very detrimental to our cause, however small the study center. That should not be allowed to happen very often. I think Wheaton should be able to fire the imaginations of the program chairmen enough so that the presentations aren't mediocre. There surely is enough material on hand. One of our favorites, which was easy enough to put on, was several months before the event, the Librarry sent us a cartonful of books on the subject we requested (we once did Hodson during a backyard picnic). Everyone took one or more books, and was asked to report back on a certain prearranged facet of the subject. So we had a uniform topic, and each one of us covered the subject from a different angle. Everyone (almost) participated, and everyone learned something on a subject we all liked. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:02:46 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: charging money Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970526180246.006c06b0@90.0.0.1> I'm not sure I could contribute much to this debate. It seems as though battle lines are drawn and most of the possible arguments fired across the line, trying to shoot down the opponents. As a truism, "don't charge money for spiritual things" sits alongside "thou shalt never kill" or "never tell a lie". Life doesn't exist in a vacuum, though. Whenever we're faced with a decision, we're required to skillfully balance conflicting morals, responsibilities, etc. and can never make a totally perfect decision. The Dalai Lama will be speaking near the Los Angeles area. The charge is $200 for good seats and $100 for seats that aren't as good. Can I judge him as wrong for giving a program that charges money? Was it unfair that members of the local Tibetan group could get the $200 tickets for $100, a special offer that was not available to the general public? As I'm reading the discussion over charging money for theosophical programs, I wonder why there's so much reaction over such a little thing. One group charges a few dollars, another doesn't. So what? One group may have books for sale and another may have some to give away for free. While I certainly have my own style and approach to "theosophical work", I recognize that other people each have their own approaches, and I won't question their motives, pass judgement on them, find them guilty of transgressing my favorite moral truisms, and condemn them. Practicing "universal brotherhood" certainly includes allowing people to think differently. That includes not just ideas that we consider "theories", subject to debate -- it also includes our core beliefs, those that form our world view, those we consider so true that they are "beyond question". This includes not just theosophical doctrines, but also political, social, and economic theories that we've been exposed to all our lives, including various theories of racism, sexism, social engineering, political organization -- nearly any subject we may have learned in college or from books, the media, and our own personal studies. In order to approach the *timeless* philosophy, it's necessary to step aside from the learning and conditioning that we're subject to. That conditioning is different in different cultures, but it's there, something standing in our way. That includes on one side the philosophical mind-traps, like a Christian using the question "do you believe in God?" as a litmus test of someone's spirituality. It also includes political and social snap judgements, like "he used the 'N' word, and is an evil racist!" What's important, I think, is that we each engage in an individual quest after the truth. That involves questioning and continually reexamining our cherished beliefs. It also involves lightening up on our condemning of others and turning that energy towards critical self-examination. In that light, a statement like "here's how I overcame this problem in my life" is much more helpful to ourselves and others than a statement like "you're a rotten theosophist because you've violated this holy, sacrosanct principle of behavior that I know to be true." -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:21:05 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Krishnaji's Lecture Part 1 of 2 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970527012105.0073a0d8@mail.eden.com> Hello: Here is a lecture of Krishnaji which is interesting. Due to its length, it is posted in two parts. =============================================== The last time we met we were discussing this question of violence; how it has pervaded all our lives from childhood until we die. This violence, this aggression, this brutality exists right throughout the world not only in the individual, where it manifests as hatred and in twisted forms of loyalty, but also outwardly in our acceptance of war as a way of life. Violence arises from rights of property, sexual rights and other forms of ideological beliefs. One is quite familiar with all this; one sees it very clearly. All the religions have said: don't kill, be kind, be compassionate, and so on, but organised religions have no meaning whatsoever; they never had. So we are confronted with this issue the problem of violence. And one must ask whether it is at all possible for a human being, not only in his personal relationship, but in his relationship to society to be completely free of this violence. This is not a rhetorical question, nor an intellectual enquiry but an actual problem that faces each one of us both psychologically, inwardly (inside the skin, as it were) and also outwardly, in the home and at the office. In every form of activity there is this aggressive spirit with its engendering hatred and animosity. And we were asking whether it is at all possible, not only at the conscious level but also at the deeper levels of the mind, to eradicate this violence completely, so that we can live at peace with one another and go beyond the national divisions, the religious separation with its dogmas, beliefs, theories and ideologies. Now let us approach this problem another way. One of our main difficulties, it seems to me, is that although we have plenty of energy, apparently we lack the drive, the vitality, and enthusiasm to bring about this change within ourselves. After all, knowing ourselves not according to some specialist is the most important thing; that is the basis of all action, and if we do not know ourselves, study ourselves, learn about ourselves, and go deeply into that meditative spirit within ourselves, then there is no foundation, then all action becomes fragmentary, contradictory and out of this state of contradiction there arises conflict, and it is this conflict which burdens each one of us. Everything we do, everything we think, everything we touch breeds conflict and struggle which in various forms does waste energy that is absolutely vital for this inward psychological revolution. This implies that we shall be completely free from conflict within ourselves; but it does not mean merely to be content, to vegetate or lead a cow-like existence; on the contrary, when energy is not used for mischievous purposes, as it is now, that energy is the transforming element in knowing ourselves. Although the ancient Greeks, the Hindus, and the Buddhists have all said: 'Know thyself', very few people have ever bothered to go into it and find out. To learn about oneself no authority is necessary, whether it be of the Church, of a Saviour or Master, or of some specialist; all that one has to do if one is really serious and earnest is to observe, not only critically but with a mind that is free to learn. (A baby cries) Who shall have the voice? You know, in India where we speak in the open, there are about three or four thousand people who bring their children with them; there are also students, beggars and every form of humanity; most of them do not understand English, but it is considered worthwhile, worthy of merit, to attend a religious meeting, so there is a great deal of noise, and the crows and the other birds join in. Everybody shares in this kind of reunion, not only the birds and children, but also those who have little knowledge of anything, and do not understand very much, but all the same it is good to attend such a very much, but all the same it is good to attend such a gathering. Here where English is spoken and understood, it is worthwhile and significant that children as well as the aged, and those in middle life, should come together to talk over seriously and intimately the problems that confront each one of us. Unfortunately we are not sufficiently serious, we are prejudiced and have reached certain conclusions which prevent us from examining ourselves. Our experience acts as a barrier, as does our knowledge, so if we could listen with a quality of mind that is both earnest and enquiring, then in this communication we shall not merely be listening to a lot of words or gathering a new set of ideas, but rather we shall be penetrating deeply within ourselves and learning about ourselves. Surely the intention of these meetings is to go deeply into ourselves and discover ourselves, not to be told what to do and what to think (which is too immature, too childish), not to create another authority, another guru and all that absurd business. Self-discovery is not asking 'Who am I?' but actually observing yourself as you would look at your face in a mirror, observing your actions, your gestures and the words you use, observing the way you look at a tree, at a bird or a passing cloud, at your wife, your husband or a neighbour. So through observation one begins to discover what one is, because one is never static; there is nothing permanent within, although the theologians and the other 'godly' people assert that there is a constant entity, which again is a theory, an idea. If we could then enquire, joyfully and freely, whether the mind this human mind which has lived for millions of years and has been so heavily conditioned by a thousand experiences, which has embraced and accepted so many ideas and ideologies whether such a mind can go into itself and find out whether or not it can be completely and totally free from violence. Now let us approach this problem differently! As long as there is fear, there must be violence, aggression, hatred and anger. Most human beings are afraid, not only outwardly but also inwardly, although the outer and the inner are not separate, they are really one movement; so if we understand the inner -- its design, its nature and the whole structure of fear then perhaps we shall be able to bring about a different society, a different culture, because the present society is corrupt and its morality is immoral. So we have to find out, not ideologically, not intellectually as a kind of game, but actually discover for ourselves whether or not it is possible to be free from this fear. There are various forms of fear, too numerous to go into the fear of darkness, the fear of losing one's job or one's livelihood, the fear of being found out when you have done something of which you are ashamed, the wife's fear of the husband, the husband's fear of the wife, the parent's fear of the children, the fear of not being loved, the fears of old age, of loneliness and death; so many forms of fear. So unless we understand fear, the central issue of fear, we shall live in darkness and, therefore, we shall never be free from this brutality, aggression, envy and competition. What is fear? What is the actual state of fear itself, not the various forms of fear? What causes fear? Please, as we said previously, the speaker is not an analyst, he is not carrying out an analysis en masse. We are not concerned with analysis at all, because as you will see presently analysis is a waste of time. Analysis postulates an analyser and a thing to be analysed whereas the analyser himself is the analysed; he cannot possibly separate himself from the thing he wishes to analyse, so when he observes this phenomenon he sees what a dreadful waste of time analysis is. You may if you are rich and it takes your fancy indulge in it as a kind of game to amuse yourself, but if you really want to go beyond the nature and structure of fear, eradicate it altogether, you must come to it, not through any analytical process or intellectual design, but directly. If you would understand something, especially a living thing, you must observe it with a living mind, not with dead knowledge, not with something that you have already learnt or that you already know. So that's what we are going to do and in listening, you are not listening to the speaker at all, because he is of no importance whatsoever. He is like the telephone it is not important! What is important is what the telephone is saying. It is necessary then to observe yourself, to observe your own mind through the words of the speaker, using him as a mirror. And when you observe yourself as a human being, so heavily conditioned by the past, so inextricably caught in sorrow and travail, then out of that observation there comes an understanding which produces a totally different kind of action, and we are going to explore that action together, discuss it, talk it over, not as teacher and pupil or guru and disciple, but rather as two friends trying to solve the immense problems of everyday life. If you don't lay a sane, healthy, decent and righteous foundation, you cannot go very far, you cannot possibly meditate or find out what is truth. To lay the right foundation, so that we become a light to ourselves, we must understand fear. What is fear (not how to overcome fear)? I do not know if you have noticed that anything that has to be overcome must be overcome again and again. If you have ever conquered anything it doesn't matter what it is, some outward or inward enemy you have to re-conquer it over and over again. We are not trying to overcome fear, nor are we trying to suppress it or give it a different quality, but instead we are trying to understand it, trying to find out what fear actually is and how it comes into being. So what is this fear, the fear of what has been, the fear of yesterday, the fear of tomorrow, the fear of not being and not becoming; that is, fear in time. If you are faced with a challenge, an enormous crisis in your life and there is no yesterday and no tomorrow you act instantly, don't you? It is the thinking about what happened yesterday or what will happen tomorrow that breeds fear, but when your action is immediate, you cannot think about what is happening now, at this instant; thought cannot enter into the active present. It is only when the action is over and done with, that you can think of what might have been, of the past or of the future. So thought is the cause of fear, thinking about the past and the future, thinking about yesterday and tomorrow I had pain yesterday and tomorrow perhaps it will return or tomorrow I may lose my job, so I am afraid. Please, observe your own mind and heart! Go into it yourself and you will see how extraordinarily simple it becomes! If you don't do it, then it is very complex, then it has no meaning whatsoever. Therefore thought breeds the fear the thought that perhaps I am no good and I may not succeed the thought of being unloved and my utter loneliness the thought of being found out in some shameful act I have committed the thought of losing something which is very precious and dear to me. So in its wake thought brings regret and despair. As well as being the source of fear, thought is also the source of pleasure. The thought of something which has given you enjoyment nourishes that pleasure, gives substance to it. When you see the sunset of an evening or the early morning light on the hills and you take in all its beauty and loveliness, or in the surrounding stillness you hear the sound of a quail, when this happens, at the actual moment of perception, there is no thought, only a total awareness of everything around you. But when you start to think about it, go back to it in thought, and say to yourself, I must have more of this pleasure, re-capture the beauty of it, then the thinking about it gives further enjoyment. So thought breeds pleasure as well as fear; this is an obvious psychological fact which intellectually we accept, but that acceptance has no value, because pleasure contains within it the seed of fear; so pleasure is fear. Please watch this very carefully! We are not saying you must deny yourself pleasure. All the religions throughout the world have condemned pleasure, sexual or otherwise we are not saying that! A religious man does not deny or suppress but rather he is learning, observing. So thinking about what has happened or what might happen brings fear, as with the fear of death for instance postponed or put away into the distant future but it is there. And thinking about some shortcoming in one's past which others might use to their advantage, or thinking about the pleasure of sex and keeping the image alive. This thinking about something does breed either fear or pleasure. The question then arises: is it possible to live our everyday life without the interference of thought? It is not such a crazy question as it sounds and it is a very important question, because man throughout the ages has worshipped thought and the intellect in all the 'clever' books with their theories, in all the theological works with their concepts about God, showing us the right way to live. These experts and specialists are like people who are tethered to a post; they are restricted from going any further because of their conditioning, so whatever they think, they are limited. And because they are the result of ten thousand years of propaganda, their gods, their dogmas and rituals have no meaning whatsoever. Man has worshipped thought, put it on a pedestal. Look at all the books that have been written! Now what is thought and what significance has it? I know there are people who have said 'Kill the mind!' You can't kill it! You can't just drop thought as though it were some garment you are wearing. You have to understand this extraordinary process of thinking, your own thinking, not by studying books or being lectured to about thought. When you think at all, what is the origin of thinking? When is thought necessary and when is it not? When is it an impediment and when is it a help? So, you must find out all these things for yourself, not be guided by the speaker or some other authority. You know, the world is becoming more and more authoritarian, not only religiously and politically but psychologically. There must, of course, be a certain kind of authority in technological knowledge, but to wield authority in religious and psychological matters is an abomination; then man is never free and never can be free, and freedom is an absolute necessity. How can a mind that is afraid ever be free? How can a mind that is clouded by perpetual thinking and incessant chattering ever be free to look, to enquire, to live and to know that ecstasy which is not of pleasure. So what is thought and can thought come to an end at a certain level and yet function at other levels rationally, sanely, objectively, nonemotionally and impersonally? That is, knowledge about the universe, about everything is necessary -- knowledge but one also observes that thought breeds fear as well as pleasure, so one asks oneself, can this thought come to an end. Once again you have to find this out for yourselves, so that you are no longer second-hand human beings as you are now but you are discovering it for yourselves. So what is thought? Surely this is very simple; thought is the response of memory. Someone asks you a familiar question and you reply immediately; and if the question is a little more complex then you take time before answering. During the interval between the question and the answer memory is in operation and from that memory you reply; so thinking is the response of memory and memory is the storehouse of thousands of experiences, both conscious as well as unconscious. That is, the unconscious is the vast storehouse as memory of the race, of the tradition, whether it be Christian, Hindu or Buddhist, and therein is hidden the accumulation of many centuries, while the conscious mind is the storehouse of knowledge you have acquired. And through this whole structure of memory you are conditioned and from that conditioning you respond; if you are conditioned as a Republican, a Democrat or a Communist then from that background, from that memory you respond. If you are brought up as a Christian and have been indoctrinated by the propaganda of the church with its dogmas and rituals, then you respond according to that memory, that conditioning; or if you are a Hindu, then you respond from the background of your gods and your puja, the rites of the temple and so on. ================ continued part 2 ========================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:49 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: fees Message-ID: <199705270123.VAA29667@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >I wonder how she >was able to manage. maybe hpb materialized food and tea. lfd From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:21:56 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Krishnaji's Lecture Part 2 of 2 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970527012156.0072e394@mail.eden.com> Krishnaji's lecture Part 2 of 2. =================continued from part 1 ===================== Please follow this! It may appear to be complicated but it is only verbally complex. So thought is the response of the brain cells which have accumulated knowledge as experience and since thought breeds fear, it has divided itself and separated the thinker from the thought. The thinker says 'I am afraid'. The thinker, the 'I' is separate from the thing of which he is afraid, the fear itself, so there is duality, a division the thinker and the thought, the observer and the observed, the experiencer and the experienced. This duality or division, this separation is the cause of effort, the source from which all effort springs. Apart from obvious duality as man and woman, black and white, there is an inward psychological duality as the observer and the observed, the one who experiences and the thing experienced. In this division, in which time and space are involved, is the whole process of conflict; you can observe it in yourself. You are violent, that is a fact and you also have the ideological concept of non-violence, so there is duality. Now the observer says 'I must become non-violent' and the attempt to become non-violent is conflict, which is a waste of energy; whereas if the observer is totally aware of that violence without the ideological concept of nonviolence then he is able to deal with it immediately. One must observe therefore this dualistic process at work within oneself this division of the I and the not-I, the observer and the observed, and thought has brought about this division. It is thought which says, I am dissatisfied with what is and I shall only be satisfied with what should be; it is thought which has enjoyed some experience as pleasure and says I must have more of it. So in each one of us there is this dualistic, contradictory process and this process is a waste of energy. Therefore one asks oneself and I hope you are asking why is there this division? Why is there this constant effort between what is and what should be? And is it possible to eradicate totally the what should be, the ideal, which is the future, as well as the what has been, the past, from which the future is built? Is there an observer at all except as thought dividing itself into the observer and the observed? You can either look at this and discard it or look at it and go into it very deeply, because as long as there is an observer, there must be division, hence conflict. And the observer is always the past, never new; the thing observed may be new, but the observer always translates it in terms of the old, the past, so thought can never be new and therefore never free. Thought is always the old, so when you worship thought, you are worshipping something which is dead; thought is like the children of barren women. And we who are supposed to be great thinkers actually live on the past and therefore we are dead human beings. Thought then has created pleasure and also fear, which breeds violence, so the problem is: there is fear and there is violence, and by considering them merely in terms of words, or by description, does not bring them to an end. I see very clearly how thought has bred this fear I am afraid I may lose something which is very precious to me, that is the thought which has produced this fear. If thought suppresses itself, says 'I won't think about it' the fear is still there. Please follow this slowly! If I attempt to escape from it, accept or deny it, I am still afraid, it is still there. So what is the next question? There is fear and thought cannot be suppressed; that would be an extreme form of neurosis. What takes place when the observer is the observed? Do you understand the question? The observer is the result of the past, of thought; and the thing observed, which is fear, is also the result of thought, so the observer and the observed are both the product of thought. Now whatever thought does with regard to this state of fear whether it accepts or suppresses it, whether it interferes and tries to sublimate it, whatever it does is to continue fear in a different form. So thought, observing this whole process, learning intimately about itself (not being told by another), seeing for itself the nature and structure of fear, which is itself, thought then realises that whatever it does with regard to fear is still to give nourishment to fear. So then what happens, what comes out of this understanding? I hope you are following all this. I have observed fear which is thought as I have observed pleasure. Now the observer is the observed, although thought has separated the observer and the thing observed. I see that very clearly; there is an understanding of it, not as an intellectual concept but as an actual reality, so what takes place? The understanding is not intellectual therefore it is the highest form of intelligence and to be intelligent, in this way, means to be highly sensitive, aware of the nature and the whole structure of fear. If I suppress fear or run away from it, then there is no sensitive perception of fear and all its implications, therefore I must learn about fear and not run away; and I can only learn about something when I am in direct contact with it, and I can only be in contact with it so intimately when I can look freely. This freedom is the highest form of sensitivity, not only physically but in the mind also; the brain itself becomes highly sensitive. This understanding is intelligence and it is this intelligence which is going to operate and as long as there is this intelligence, there is no fear; fear only comes when this intelligence is absent. This must be understood at a very deep level not just verbally, because as we said previously the word is not the thing and the description is never the described. You can describe food to a hungry man but the words and the description do not appease his hunger. This intelligence is the highest form of sensitivity, not only at the physical level ( this implies a great deal which unfortunately we haven't time to go into), but also at the deeper psychological level, and it is this intelligence which is the foundation of virtue. Nowadays, I am afraid, most people spit on that word 'virtue' as they do on 'humility' and 'kindliness' they have lost all their meaning. But without virtue there is no order; we are not talking of political order or economic order, but of something quite different; the order of which we are speaking is virtue, not the so-called virtue or morality of the church and society, because they are based on authority. The morality of the church and organised religions is immoral because it compromises with society; to these organisations virtue is an ideal, but you cannot cultivate humility. So order is virtue and this order can only come into being when we understand the whole negative process of disorder which is in ourselves, which is this contradiction, this division which has been brought about by the process of thought. Unless we understand this state of order and virtue very clearly and lay its foundation deeply within ourselves, there is no possibility of of going into the question of meditation, and of finding out what love is and what truth is. And now if you have time and the inclination, perhaps you would like to ask questions and talk things over together. Questioner: Could you discuss this verbalization which takes place within oneself when one wishes to look at something very clearly? KRISHNAMURTI: I wonder if we have ever observed within ourselves what slaves we are to words, to verbalization? Why? We are incapable of looking at anything a cloud, a bird, those marvellous hills over there, our wife or our husband without this process of verbalization. Why? Why is it that we cannot look at anything without the image? To understand this is quite a complex problem. Why do we look at everything through an image which is the word? Why do I look at my wife or my husband, or at my friend, with an image? My wife has done a great many things she has possessed me, nagged me, bullied me or annoyed me, insulted me and discarded me. And through time, through many days I have put all this together; it has become a memory and through that memory, of all these hurts, I look at her. If I may point out, the speaker unfortunately has a certain reputation and through that image you look at him and therefore you are not looking at the speaker at all; you are looking through the image you have about the speaker, the image being the word, the idea, the tradition. So can you look at something without the image? Can you look at someone without the image? Can you look, without the image, at your wife or your husband, at the man across the valley, at the man who has insulted you or flattered you? It is only possible to look without the image when you have understood the nature of experience. What is experience? (Pause) I hope you are all doing this with me and not just listening to a lot of words! You must understand what experience is, because it is this accumulated experience which is all the time building images so what is experience? The word 'experience' means to go right through something, but we never do! Let us take it at the simplest level! You insult me and the experience remains, leaves an imprint on my mind, becomes part of my memory, so you are my enemy; I don't like you. And the same thing happens if you flatter me, then you are my friend; the memory of the flattery remains as does the insult. Please follow this very carefully! Can I, at the moment of the flattery or the insult, go through it completely, so that the experience leaves no mark on the mind at all? This means that when you insult me, I listen to it and look at it, totally, completely, objectively and without emotion, as I look at this microphone, which means giving total attention to it with my whole mind and heart, to find out if what you say is true and if it isn't, then what is the point of holding on to it. This is not a theory; the mind is never free if there is any form of conceptual thinking or image-building. And I do the same if you flatter me, say what a marvellous speaker I am. I listen with my whole mind and heart while you are speaking, not afterwards, to find out why you are saying it and what value it has, whether or not I am a marvellous speaker, then I have both finished with insult and flattery. However it is not as simple as that, because we enjoy living in a world of images, images of like and dislike; we live with those images and our minds are forever chattering, forever verbalizing, so we never look at our wife, our husband or the mountain with a free mind, and it is only the innocent mind that can look. Questioner: How can we get rid of this division in ourselves? KRISHNAMURTI: First of all, if I may suggest, don 't get rid of anything! Getting rid of something is to escape from it. You have to look at it, go into it! Now this division of like and dislike, love and hate, mine and not mine exists within oneself - why? We come now to a very important point, which is, do you understand or discover anything through analysis? Let us look at it! There is this problem of division, contradiction within ourselves and I want to understand it, go into it to find out if it is possible for the mind to be completely non-fragmentary. Now can I find out through analysis? Will this division come to an end through analysis? Surely analysis implies an analyser and the thing to be analysed, therefore the analyser is different from the analysed and in that there is division; so can this fragmentation within ourselves come to an end through analysis, which is of course thought, or does it come about through having direct perception? You can only have direct perception when there is no condemnation of this division, when there is no evaluation, saying I must be in this state in which there is no division at all, I must achieve this harmony; you can't achieve harmony as long as this division between you and harmony exists as an idea, because that division, which is brought about by thought, breeds further division. Since ancient times they have said there is God and there is man - this everlasting division. Later on they said God is not over there, he's here, in you; and again there was this division between you and the God within you. The God who previously was in a stone, in a tree, in a statue, who was venerated as the Saviour, as the Master was now in you; you are the God. Then the God within you says do this, don't do that, be harmonious, be kind, love your neighbour, but you can't because there is a division between you and the God within you. So thought is the entity that divides and through thought, that is through analysis, you hope to come upon that state in which there is no division at all; you can't do it, it can only come about when the mind itself sees and understands this whole process, and is then completely quiet. That word 'understanding' is very important; a description doesn't bring understanding, neither does finding out the cause of something. So what brings understanding? What is understanding? Have you ever noticed when your mind is quietly listening - not arguing, judging, criticizing, evaluating, comparing but just listening, then in that state the mind is silent and then only understanding comes. There is this division within ourselves, this everlasting contradiction and we must simply be aware of it, and not try to do anything about it, because whatever we do causes this division. So complete negation is complete action. 10th November 1968 Talk at Claremont Colleges, California, USA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 97 10:15:49 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <199705271415.KAA24104@leo.vsla.edu> According to theos-l@vnet.net: As the subject has advanced from the morality of fees to the method of argument, I'll continue one more round here. Hope this clarifies some things. > > I am being told that the behavior of my Lodge is wrong. Actually, it was Seattle that was first mentioned as an example of fees for public lectures. Everyone piled on then, before or simultaneous to your revelation that NYC did the same. Mostly in support of Long Beach's policy of *not* charging. I am being told > that charging money is automatically morally wrong, and no justification > is needed to prove that it is morally wrong, and that the burden of > proof is on me to prove that it is not morally wrong. Nobody said that as I recall. I certainly have no objection to charging for classes, or catered dinners, or conferences. My sole objection is to charging admission to public lectures. And have never indicated that I expect you to prove that it is not morally wrong. Just gave my opinion, and tried to explain it when asked. I also said that I would not participate in a lodge that did so, or one that excluded the public from all meetings, which is *far* worse. That's my choice to make. That is a common > trick among frauds, because it is well known that you cannot prove a > negative. I ask people to go in the other direction: demonstrate how > charging money is morally wrong, and I am answered with circular logic; > answers which ASSUME that charging money is morally wrong. There is no way to logically prove a moral principle. I don't like being called (by implication) a fraudulent trickster, having had this done publicly by a high TS official. But anyhow, I think it is tricky if not fraudulent to insist that those who disagree with you prove their points by logically deducing an "ought" from an "is"-- since that's impossible. You "win", but by cutting the Gordian knot. You have > essentially stated that it is a matter somehow beyond logic (something > on the order of it being something that one either understands or one > doesn't). Precisely. One can use persuasion, by appealing to people's basic assumptions, to get them to adopt one's moral position. One can never prove it logically. I could not *prove* to you that human sacrifice at lodge meetings is wrong. My "adversaries" launched the first silos. WHOA. I certainly was not attacking you. If you recall, I said that the ARE (for which I generally have much higher regard than the TS, especially the Adyar/Wheaton TS) really falls down in my estimation in the commercialism department. I am quite willing to criticize orgs that I identify with when they behave in ways that violate their own principles. I also headed a post "New York Special Case?" and suggested that lodges with high overhead might *have* to charge fees. (Which still doesn't make it desirable IMO.) Seems like you identify so closely with the NYC lodge or the Wheaton/Adyar TS that you feel personally attacked when people disagree with something it does. That only brings unnecessary pain and strife. I am attempting to > put the conversation on equal ground. As of now, very few here (notably > Chuck and Titus) even UNDERSTAND my point of view. The rest are too busy > with knee-jerk attacks against it. Don't think most are making knee-jerk attacks against *your* point of view. Maybe knee-jerk assertions of their *own* which they held before they ever heard of you. > > It is a reference to a previous discussion with him. Not joining the > E.S. does not automatically make you a bad Theosophist, and charging > money does not, IN AND OF ITSELF, make a Lodge a bad Lodge. Yet you, he, > and several others here have been stating just that, and making me, by I certainly haven't stated that, although you might find it implied; ditto for Doss. And it isn't charging money in general that is problematic for me, but charging for public lectures which are/can be people's first exposure to Theosophy. > implication, avaricious and greedy. As a matter of fact, I volunteer a > LOT of time to the Lodge, and several times have been asked to accept > fees for my work for the Lodge. I have ALWAYS refused. There was no personal judgment intended in anything I said, and that probably speaks for most of your "adversaries." > > I could not find your original statement, but, to my recollection, you > made a statement about people loving money for which, when interpreted > by my own definitions of money and love of money, could not possibly be > right. I was therefore asking you to clarify what you meant. What I meant was (and this comes from observing the ARE) that people start with the idea that it's OK to charge in order to cover costs, and then they start deciding what programs to offer, books to publish, etc. based on what brings in the most cash. Money corrupts the process by which an organization defines itself. > > Sorry. I meant argument instead of analogy. It is a logical fallacy, > and does not belong in serious discussion, unless it can be demonstrated Serious discussion need not be solely logical. Serious discussion of moral issues can *use* logic, and should not use *illogic* but can never be purely logical. > controversial ruling against an unpopular group, a slippery slope > argument is valid, when coupled with a report of their past history). OK. The ARE's history indicates that commercialism can get out of hand. Many feel that the org. has lost something of its soul in the process. Although in many ways I'd like to see the TS emulate the ARE, commercialism is not one of them. > > What have I been asked to explain, yet failed to do so, except when I > asked someone to clarify the question? It's not that you have been asked and not done so. It's that you have taken the position that others have to explain themselves to you. They fall into a defensive mode, and we go back and forth with that dynamic. This isn't a conscious choice (I don't think.) It is, however, a pattern of argument that bothers me a lot. Since I'm one of those people who easily falls prey to the assumption that I owe others explanations and defenses, but they don't owe me the same. > > When my practices are attacked as evil or immoral, I certainly do > expect people to explain their point of view. When you were attacked for > your book, did you expect anything less? Yes. I did expect less. I never got explanations or defenses of where people were coming from. With my handful of "adversaries" (of whom only one was active on theos-l for long) I allowed myself to be put in the position of 100% defensive, and allowed my antagonist to be 100% the prosecutor, judge and jury. If I ever did ask "Why are you doing this? Where are you coming from? What do *you* conclude about the Masters' identities? What's your evidence?" the immediate response was "the issue isn't me, it's you and your book." Another former friend of this person later wrote me "He asks a hundred questions and never answers one." > > > 3. Then pick whatever points of their explanation > > you want to challenge, ignore the rest, and further demand that > > they explain those. > > OK, I will let you off the hook. A telling phrase, showing that you see me as the defendant and yourself as the judge. > > Having been dragged into this game, like a complete idiot, over > > and over by many people on the Internet, I have at last come to > > recognize it, and say "Hell no, I won't go." > > DRAGGED into this game? Hell, you STARTED it!!!!!!! How in the world do you know? I *specifically* was describing the past. Mostly on alt.religion.eckankar and Talisman, where irate Eckists and Baha'is often found me an easy prey. I'd make one critical statement about their religion, and be made to "pay" for it by dozens of harassing, demanding posts which insisted that I endlessly defend and explain my position. Only one Theosophist has played the same game here. I was NOT referring to you or the current discussion, as is clear in the above passage. I was saying that I wouldn't get dragged in again. (This will be my last post in this discussion.) Moreover, I started no discussion on this issue. Tom brought up fees, and about five people replied simultaneously. > > Let's take a look what happened from my point of view. First, you make > a statement about how great it is that some Lodges do not charge for > anything. That wasn't "first." It was in response to Tom. I point out that, for some Lodges, the New York Lodge in > particular, doing so is not a luxury, and charging fees in certain > instances enables the Lodge to perform its duties (by giving the Three > Objects a public forum, to allow the teaching and discussion of the > Primary Literature and concepts that have come from it) better than it > would otherwise. At this point, rather than people saying, "perhaps > you're right", Beg your pardon. I *immediately* said that, in reference to NYC being a special case. or saying "you're wrong because", I was hit by a stream > of, "you're wrong, because it's wrong to charge money." When I ask why > it's wrong to charge money, I get, "If you don't understand now, you > never will", or "evil people charge money", or, "it's just plain wrong". You got a lot more than that, but seem to have reduced people's comments to that. You'll never get logical proof. > > The only response that even comes close to a rational argument was when > it was pointed out that people might be excluded due to lack of money. I > pointed out that the New York Lodge does not do this, unless the people > also have excessive pride. "Rational arguments" were several. Mine was, in essence, that the TS should distinguish itself from all the commercially-oriented New Age groups out there, and be an example of a different way. JRC's was that since the Founders and Masters gave freely to create Theosophy, we are obliged to pass it on freely. Doss's was that (among other things) "it ain't broke"-- TS lodges have done fine without charging fees so why introduce them? Alan's was that genuine esoteric teachers have historically been distinguishable from frauds precisely by the criterion of charging or not charging fees. Etc. Bart, I don't have any *personal* feelings on this issue one way or the other, apart from being unwilling that anyone pay to hear *me* speak. Your lodge made the choice it felt called to make, and has every right to do so. I have the right to say that such a choice would preclude my participation as a speaker or audience member. And don't have to prove or justify that choice, any more than you have to prove or justify yours. Explain, yes, and I think I've done that sufficiently. Namaste, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:43:08 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: Money:Wrong? Message-ID: When Bart asks why charging money would be considered morally wrong his question should be answered, not simply dismissed. IMHO money is simply a form of energy which is independent of morality.Whether the charging of money is moral depends on the intent of the giver and receiver, and the state of the universe at any given moment. Energy flows to where it is required, is has no other place to go, and energy is always moving. Any lodge who decides to charge for its presentations should be mindful of its intentions. There will always be the teachers and the knowledge will never be lost. If a lodge has to close down and sell off its assets because of lack of finance so be it, after all a lodge is surely its members and not its location, isn't it? If we question the intention of lodge members as why they would wish to charge for an event what are the parameters we should look at?If it is for the protection of the premises I feel that that is a weak response because I feel that if all of the members were homeless they could still somehow get together at predetermined dates in a location in their town, such as a cafe', bar, or any local meeting place. Ofcourse, the administration would be cut to a minimum. Correspondences with HQ no doubt would be by PO BOX numbers or the equivalent.Either way, premises are not required. What about the question of literature availability? Members could share the responsibility of photocopying extracts from different texts. It wouldn't necesarily be entire texts, (after all that would be far too expensive!), just the bare minimum from the main teachers. Hey, and how about having meetings in the local library, that would attract many more people than that of the lodge buildings. It might make theosophy more accessible. Just a few thoughts. Ideally,IMHO, there would be no charge because the transfer of the knowledge from one to another is independent of material things. I might add that being a student with little money, if any, had it not been for the fact that certain events were free my access to theosophy would have been curtailed, as it is theosophy has been available to me, thankfully. Love Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:01:11 -0800 From: Martin Leiderman Subject: Re: Charging a fee for activities Message-ID: <338B0548.607F@lainet.com> I think every lodge is free to charge or not to charge a fee, and nobody should tell them nor judge them for that. The act of charging money for membership, lectures, and seminars is not good or bad is simply charging money for something. Intentions, motivations and usage of the money decides the result (karma) of the actions of charging a fee. It is up to every lodge to experiment with this idea and see which one works better for their visions, goals and plans. I do think that if someone cannot afford the admission fee, that should not be a problem and he/she should be able to attend. Specially senions in fix income, etc. Most of us can afford to pay for a lecture/seminar, etc . . . since we buy lots of books. Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 97 11:38:07 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Electronics in the Cayce readings Message-ID: <199705271538.LAA04891@leo.vsla.edu> In a brief look at the readings CD-ROM, I found two passages that seem prophetic: 3902-002 "...the entity should begin now to study electronics for as the earth and the people of same enter Aquarius, the air, we find that the electrical forces, electronics and energies are to be the ruling influences..." 5281-001 "get out of the tobacco business, get into electronics." I neglected to get the dates for these readings. But assuming they are from 1930-44, I wonder two things. How many people realized then that tobacco was going to run into problems down the road? Not many, I would suspect. How widespread was the recognition that an age of electronics was approaching? I don't remember from my childhood in the `60s that anyone had much of a clue about computers, although TV had saturated the market. Also, wonder if this advice was really relevant to the person receiving it, or if Cayce was actually looking further into the future than he realized? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:16:47 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <19970527.092344.5455.1.trr@juno.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 10:18:00 -0400 (EDT) "K. Paul Johnson" writes: >According to theos-l@vnet.net: (I believe Bart wrote this:) >> I am being told that charging money is automatically morally wrong, >> and no justification is needed to prove that it is morally wrong, and >> that the burden of proof is on me to prove that it is not morally >> wrong. >Nobody said that as I recall. I certainly have no objection to >charging for classes, or catered dinners, or conferences. My >sole objection is to charging admission to public lectures. >And have never indicated that I expect you to prove that it is >not morally wrong. Just gave my opinion, and tried to explain >it when asked. I also said that I would not participate in a >lodge that did so, or one that excluded the public from all >meetings, which is *far* worse. That's my choice to make. I am unclear about the difference between saying that charging of money is automatically morally wrong and saying that one would boycott a lodge which charges money. Boycotts are motivated, generally, if not always, by moral disapproval of the object of the boycott. Or might the difference lie in the distinction you make between saying that charging is wrong and that charging for public lectures is wrong, one being more general than the other? >There is no way to logically prove a moral principle. I agree. Justice is perceived intuitively, not mentally. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:06:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Electronics in the Cayce readings Message-ID: <970527140649_353573995@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-27 11:48:48 EDT, you write: >Also, wonder if this advice was really relevant to the person >receiving it, or if Cayce was actually looking further into the >future than he realized? > > If he followed it his grandchildren are undoubtedly grateful. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:29:19 -0400 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Fees Message-ID: <338B27FF.50CA@gil.net> Sorry to offer my penny's worth so late in the discussion, but in Miami we have wrestled with the problem of the lodge's monetary needs over the years. We now simply accept as a donation what ever is voluntarily collected from the participants. Whether from each of the fourteen different groups who meet each week in the lodge, or the members, or the public at large. All groups if presented to the public are done so no charge. From Astrology to Zen, these group participants seek what is of interest to them. The facilitators place in the cash register under the generic code of 'donation', what ever is collected from each meeting. Likewise, our Sunday program, offered to the public, is free. Donations, in the form of a basket being passed is quick, efficient and affords fifty or so people each week an easy way to donate. If someone has not donated, or is unable to donate, no lodge member has or would comment on it. While some presenters are nationally known, afield of the TSA presenters, non of the public speakers are afforded an honorarium. More than one hundred of our members have agreed to this system. We believe we are custodians of one process which may be used for the refinement of the human condition. The building, the library, the bookstore, even the kitchen while now located in a facility far afield of the original sight is nonetheless a legacy of the work of others. When we have need for a specific improvement, e.g. a computer network for the library and bookstore, a garden retreat etc. our fund raising efforts are increased. Members contribute, we have had social nights, pot luck dinners, etc. We find we may not get what we want, but we do get what we need (oh, how I cringed at saying it). Other than the waning ES influence at the lodge, after their attempt to have our assets brought under the control of the TSA, our system works well. Bart stated "Not all dedicated Theosophists are ES members, but all ES members are dedicated Theosophists". The recent past run up of political nonsense at the national level, promulgated by the ES hierarchy tried and true, has raised the awareness of all members in South Florida. A little individual effort will confirm what we have found. ES constituents are dedicated to the ES first and finally, not the TS. This is my opinion. It is however mirrored by the observations and experience of many Miami members and Florida Federation members. Further, the direction of the ES is confirmed in the work of Tillet, Wood et. al. . The allegiance of the "Esoteric School" is ultimately sworn to the head of the ES not the Theosophical Society. Several participants in this forum have pointed the way to information that has opened the ES to many questions. All of these (questions) still remain unanswered after having been asked directly of the ES members or the TSA Board (I believe all but 1 member on the Board is an ES member). Excuses are offered and justifications proffered for the TSA and the ES to hide behind a corporate veil. Might not this in the end afford the ES and the TSA little defense when their actions are questioned in light of existing IRS statutes. All Board minutes, votes and membership lists are open to members upon written request. That is the law whereby the TSA is tax exempt, not a convenient fiction. The mindless following of local "ES Wardens", representative of the International and National groups and the secret organizations within the ES prove themselves to be separate to the original stated aims of the founders of the TS. Whether there are two or three ES members in a lodge or other group, distress, disharmony and imbalance is promulgated by these members. Each time there has been a problem of freedom at our lodge or in the Florida Federation, there is an ES Warden or minion causing dissention. They have used all manner of manipulation to attain control. Ego bound and form infused, the ES had reached it's zenith before members questioned the Esoteric School's true aims. When their goals were seen and understood things changed. It was just control, not good for the sake of good. Just control, of stuff, of minds, of resources, of anything that came within their purview. In closing, we have found that if the lodge exists with the desire to serve all and sustain the three declared objects, membership and resources will be forthcoming. When we cast out bread upon the water, we have yet to get back soggy bread. My peace profound Ken Malkin, From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 97 15:09:15 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Wrong for me vs. wrong for all Message-ID: <199705271909.PAA29793@leo.vsla.edu> Tom asks how I can simultaneously say that the choice about lecture fees is up to an individual lodge, and that I would boycott a lodge that charged them. Same principle as that I "boycott" cigarettes and liquor, and don't hang out in smoke- filled bars, but don't mind other people doing so. Lots of other analogies could be raised, but the bottom line is that one can disapprove a course of action and dissociate oneself from it without thereby trying to prevent others from doing as they choose, or insisting that they live by one's own values. It would have been more correct to say I would boycott the lectures, since other events could either be free or things I don't mind paying for. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 97 15:19:32 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: ES/Good Theosophists? Message-ID: <199705271919.PAA01252@leo.vsla.edu> I wouldn't touch the question of who is or is not a good Theosophist, and indeed think that phrase has been abused so much that it should be retired from use. But if we phrase the question "Is the ES good for the TS?" then I agree wholeheartedly with Ken that the answer is a resounding NO. There is enough evidence on this question in our archives to fill a book, so no need to repeat it. But to put the question more generally: Is it good for any ostensibly democratic organization to be governed by members of a separate and secret organization which consistently for a century has subverted said democratic form of governance? The question answers itself. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:30:40 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Charging Fees Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970527193040.00749ee4@mail.eden.com> Hello, everyone: All the points made are well taken. What is important to everyone is to re-visit everything including the question of charging fees, paying honarorium, open vs closed meetings (more later on closed meetings after we are done with fees) so that we are constantly aware of any need to change to improve operations and better help achive our goals and objectives. Let me bring you up on a first hand experience in San Antonio. The lodge has been in existence since 1910 and has never owned any property in its entire life. For years the members met in the homes of members and it was only about 10 years ago a member donated a building to TSA with a life estate in it for $1.00 annual rent. The wife died a couple of years ago and the husband is missing for the past couple of years and in Texas it appears that it takes 7 years after disappearances for the courts to declare a person dead. Only after this takes place the total control of the property transfers to TSA. San Antonio lodge rents space from this building and meets in the building and has the library books in the building. Today we don't even have a resident caretaker for the building. Some time ago a small notice was published in AT and if you read the qualifications mentioned for the care taker, most of us on theos-l would not qualify. None was found. Does it not say something? San Antonio had quite a few members over the years. After the above building became available, we have a permanent place to meet. The irony of the situation is that probably the membership and activities of the lodge has not improved after we had this permanent place. Probably we have fewer active members today than when we were meeting in different homes. So one wonders if from an realistic point of view, may be a case could be made that having real estate may be a detriment to the real activities of the lodge/center. Taking another scenario, if in a city there is a building and due to the overhead costs, the lodge may decide to charge a fee for its programs, no matter what the fee is called. There could be a group of members who disagree with this policy, they can go and organize another lodge/center in the city so that they could carry on lectures and other programs with no fee. I do not know if this has happened in any city. How the group which left to form their own group will be looked up by the membership which did not leave. It would be interesting to get a feedback. Certain comment were made about E.S. members. I have known some very outstanding and good men and women who were in the E.S. and if you ask any of them, they will tell you that their interest was self-improvement. There is however a problem when E.S. contacts are used by the members to influence the TS organizational and administrative matters (following party line), the politics enters. One has to only read Wood's book to understand this issue. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:38:04 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ES/Good Theosophists? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970527193804.00756a7c@mail.eden.com> At 03:20 PM 5/27/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: >I wouldn't touch the question of who is or is not a good >Theosophist, and indeed think that phrase has been abused so >much that it should be retired from use. Don't worry. The code word used for not a "good" theosophist "Un-Brotherly". I do not know if any of you had an opportunity to run into this when one takes an action which the other party does not see as supportive of their point of view or opinion or idea. ......doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:34:18 -0500 (CDT) From: texhut@ix.netcom.com Subject: Flying Silos; Rendering unto IRS Message-ID: <199752716431336334@> Gentlepersons: In the passionate exchange inst. on the subject of when it is proper for money to change hands, I note an extraordinary image has been employed: someone has been accused of "firing the first silos." I am new to the list, and certainly not theosophicalier than anyone, but did the author truly mean to convey an image evocative of Sherman's progress through the South? Or, stranger yet, an agricultural version of Star Wars? Or did the gentleman simply mean to write "salvo"? Presumably, he meant the latter. Odd that, having been taken to task on so many other matters, he was not taken to task on this one as well. It is my understanding of the current tax code that, should an organization "charge" for a function, the funds collected become taxable. If the same function is financed by "donations," no tax liability accrues. In the former case, the organization's tax-exempt status might come up for investigation; in the latter, the question does not arise, nor would it arise if the function were gratis. If my understanding is incorrect, I welcome correction. It would seem to me that those who running the various Lodges might wish to be reminded of this legal peculiarity from time to time, and have a care that they are keeping it in mind. Scott Hutton From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:12:27 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Flying Silos; Rendering unto IRS Message-ID: <338B3215.48EAC18C@earthlink.net> Hello Scott, Excellent issue about taxes: + It is my understanding of the current tax code that, should an + organization "charge" for a function, the funds collected become + taxable.  If the same function is financed by "donations," no + tax liability accrues.  In the former case, the organization's + tax-exempt status might come up for investigation; in the latter, + the question does not arise, nor would it arise if the function + were gratis.  If my understanding is incorrect, I welcome + correction.      This is quite correct with a peculiar exception according to my understanding...if an officially registered tax-exempt organization charges or requires a donation more than the actual market value of a product then the charge/donation is tax exempt...re: PBS tax exempt product for donation offers...M.K.R.D. I believe does taxes and can answer more.    I myself would like to see a healthier economic flow transcendent of taxation..see     http://users.aol.com/aprioripa/ecosolu.html Shanti, Patrick Alessandra, Psy.D. -- ***  A.Priori  /  1441C Bellevue Way NE  /  Bellevue, WA  98004  USA ***  aprioripa@aol.com  /  http://users.aol.com/psychosoph/home.html ***  (425) 455-9259 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:01:10 -0600 (MDT) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <199705272201.QAA00684@mailmx.micron.net> Bart wrote: >> I am being told >> that charging money is automatically morally wrong, and no justification >> is needed to prove that it is morally wrong, and that the burden of >> proof is on me to prove that it is not morally wrong. Although I understand the dangers of fighting for causes due to moral reasons, with its risk of impeding upon individual rights - I have to say that I, in this case of charging monies, have been fighting due to moral reasons. I don't know, though, how anyone can PROVE a moral right or wrong. There is even a possibility that looking at the fee issue through pure, cold logic may prove that charging is "logical." I would gather partnering Theosophy and money are acceptable by logical standards. But morally, I do feel it is unseemly - and I have no hard facts to back it up, since I cannot prove how many people have had to elect not to go to a Theosophical event due to cost. Bart listed one class at $80.00 - I couldn't afford that. Eldon wrote that the Dalai Lama is charging $200.00 - I couldn't afford that. And I'm less poor than most people on this planet. Eldon wrote: "So what?" about this whole money thing. Well, it means something to me. . . I would love to go to a Theosophical class, but to plead poverty is embarrassing, nor do I want to feel that the Lodge is using me for the daily "good deed" of almsgiving. I would so love to attend the event with the Dalai Lama, but it is clear that will certainly not occur in the near future. Sometimes, all the 'poor' have to fight with is morals. We don't have facts, charts, graphs, statistics. . .but we have the disappointment. And we have the longing. Providentially, the message of Theosophy will continue to spread. . .despite Theosophists. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:05:20 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <338B68B0.6B1A@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > According to theos-l@vnet.net: > > As the subject has advanced from the morality of fees to the > method of argument, I'll continue one more round here. Hope > this clarifies some things. > > > > I am being told that the behavior of my Lodge is wrong. > > Actually, it was Seattle that was first mentioned as an example > of fees for public lectures. Everyone piled on then, before or > simultaneous to your revelation that NYC did the same. Mostly > in support of Long Beach's policy of *not* charging. I mentioned it first, then Tom. There was some discussion about some of his beliefs about what it means to have money, but one thing that was made abundantly clear was that many thought that once a Lodge started charging fees for anything, it is no longer a Theosophical Lodge and should shut itself down as a failure. I was naturally upset by what I saw as an attempt to impose a dogma. Certainly some were more guilty than others, but when one is being called everything from avaricious to a black magician, one tends not to be as careful about degrees. > There is no way to logically prove a moral principle. Yes and no. That is actually an excellent subject for discussion, and, when I recover from this, I may start it up. Briefly, though, all moral principles break down to axioms, and logical theorems based on those axioms. This is the basis of any logical system. Therefore, moral principles beyond the axioms CAN be logically proven, provided that the same set of axioms are accepted by those applying the logic. And I'm certain that there are SOME moral axioms on which we can all agree, here (the unity of the human family, for one). > I don't > like being called (by implication) a fraudulent trickster, > having had this done publicly by a high TS official. There is a difference between using the tactics of a reprehensible group, and being a member of that group (note that said tactics are not part of what makes the group reprehensible, then the accusation is in itself reprehensible). When I accuse someone of using the tactics, I am warning the person that s/he is getting close to the line. If I feel they have stepped over the line, then I state it outright. When I state that you (or anybody else) are using the tactics of a fraud, then I am also stating, by implication, that I do NOT believe that you (or the one whom I am accusing) ARE a fraud. If I believed that, I would state it outright. By pointing out the invalid tactics, I am hoping that the person whom I am accusing will see what they are doing, and drop those tactics, or explain to me why the tactics are valid. > Precisely. One can use persuasion, by appealing to people's > basic assumptions, to get them to adopt one's moral position. > One can never prove it logically. I could not *prove* to you > that human sacrifice at lodge meetings is wrong. Remind me to use that one as an example when I start the topic on morality and logic. > WHOA. I certainly was not attacking you. If you recall, I > said that the ARE (for which I generally have much higher > regard than the TS, especially the Adyar/Wheaton TS) really > falls down in my estimation in the commercialism department. I > am quite willing to criticize orgs that I identify with when > they behave in ways that violate their own principles. I also > headed a post "New York Special Case?" and suggested that > lodges with high overhead might *have* to charge fees. (Which > still doesn't make it desirable IMO.) Seems > like you identify so closely with the NYC lodge or the > Wheaton/Adyar TS that you feel personally attacked when people > disagree with something it does. That only brings unnecessary > pain and strife. Not in all cases, but in parts in which I am intimately involved, yes. > What I meant was (and this comes from observing the ARE) that > people start with the idea that it's OK to charge in order to > cover costs, and then they start deciding what programs to > offer, books to publish, etc. based on what brings in the most cash. > Money corrupts the process by which an organization defines itself. Unless the programs that charge money are specifically put in place to finance the programs that don't. Or at least, less so. > Serious discussion need not be solely logical. Serious > discussion of moral issues can *use* logic, and should not use > *illogic* but can never be purely logical. OK. > Yes. I did expect less. I never got explanations or defenses > of where people were coming from. With my handful of > "adversaries" (of whom only one was active on theos-l for long) > I allowed myself to be put in the position of 100% defensive, > and allowed my antagonist to be 100% the prosecutor, judge and > jury. If I ever did ask "Why are you doing this? Where are > you coming from? What do *you* conclude about the Masters' > identities? What's your evidence?" the immediate response was > "the issue isn't me, it's you and your book." Another former friend of this > person later wrote me "He asks a hundred questions and never > answers one." Well, that is what I felt was happening to me, here. I am deeply grateful to Eldon Tucker, who managed to, as a neutral party, cut through all the bull to get to the real issues. Bart From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:39:38 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <19970527.153939.5455.14.trr@juno.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 18:01:50 -0400 (EDT) kymsmith@micron.net writes: >Sometimes, all the 'poor' have to fight with is morals. Often, they don't even legitimately have that. Generally, people who are of value to others get paid for it. >Providentially, the message of Theosophy will continue to spread. . . >despite Theosophists. And in spite of those who aren't willing to pay for it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:21:38 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Fees Message-ID: <338B6C82.342D@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > > Sorry to offer my penny's worth so late in the discussion, but in Miami > we have wrestled with the problem of the lodge's monetary needs over the > years. And I, for one, have been impressed as to how you have solved them. Volunteers are an extremely rare commodity these days, as most adults work full time jobs and then some, yet you have created a full schedule using (almost?) entirely voluntary effort. > existing IRS statutes. All Board minutes, votes and membership lists are > open to members upon written request. That is the law whereby the TSA is > tax exempt, not a convenient fiction. There is a difference between Board minutes and complete transcripts, however. In New York, we are currently in the process of organizing all the minutes from all the Board meetings in history into a format where any member can go to the Library and look them up. > The mindless following of local "ES Wardens", representative of the > International and National groups and the secret organizations within > the ES prove themselves to be separate to the original stated aims of > the founders of the TS. Whether there are two or three ES members in a > lodge or other group, distress, disharmony and imbalance is promulgated > by these members. We kept that from happening in New York. When one E.S. member started claiming greater authority, the claim quickly ended when the member was threatened with being thrown out of the E.S. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:32:17 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: ES/Good Theosophists? Message-ID: <338B6F01.5566@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > I wouldn't touch the question of who is or is not a good > Theosophist, and indeed think that phrase has been abused so > much that it should be retired from use. But if we phrase the > question "Is the ES good for the TS?" then I agree > wholeheartedly with Ken that the answer is a resounding NO. There is another way of looking at it. The origins of the ES, in my opinion, were a good idea. As has been mentioned here recently, Theosophy is a largely theoretical pursuit. And there are always those who want to put the theory into practice. When the anti-Christian vs. Christian theosophists in London threatened to have a schism, those who called themselves the Mahatmas wrote stating that one must reach the truth through one's own religion. They suggested starting a special section for those who wished to adopt their philosophy as a religion. This was the origin of the E.S. It was corrupted by the overenthusiasm over Krishnamurti, although attempts to fix it followed. The Mahatmas, however, made it absolutely clear that the ES was to be separate from the TS, and that its purpose was to KEEP people who lived by their philosophy from thinking that they had the right to control the TS by giving them their own organization to control. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:37:29 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Flying Silos; Rendering unto IRS Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527163729.006f5c84@imagiware.com> Scott: >It is my understanding of the current tax code that, should an >organization "charge" for a function, the funds collected become >taxable. If the same function is financed by "donations," no >tax liability accrues. In the former case, the organization's >tax-exempt status might come up for investigation; in the latter, >the question does not arise, nor would it arise if the function >were gratis. If my understanding is incorrect, I welcome >correction. I'm not sure you've got it right regarding non-profit organizations. An non-profit group can conduct business and charge for goods and services. It can make a profit on what it does. If the profit is related to its charitable purpose, it is not taxable. If the profit is unrelated, it is taxable. Point Loma Publications, for instance, would not pay taxes on the profit from its book sales, but would owe taxes on any stock or interest income it might have. What distinguishes an non-profit organization is a matter of ownership. A private business is owned by private individuals; all assets, profits, etc. belong to them. A non-profit group is "owned" by the general public, by the common good, and should it ever dissolve, all its assets must be turned over to another non-profit group. The basic difference is that a non-profit group is owned by "the common good", by the public in general -- the distinguishing characteristic is not in how it conducts business or charges fees. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:40:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <970527194048_910458391@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-27 19:21:18 EDT, you write: >>Sometimes, all the 'poor' have to fight with is morals. > > If that is all they have to fight with they are in real trouble if they run up against someone who has none. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:52:29 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <338B73BD.5953@sprynet.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > something to me. . . I would love to go to a Theosophical class, but to > plead poverty is embarrassing, nor do I want to feel that the Lodge is using > me for the daily "good deed" of almsgiving. I would so love to attend the > event with the Dalai Lama, but it is clear that will certainly not occur in > the near future. > > Sometimes, all the 'poor' have to fight with is morals. We don't have > facts, charts, graphs, statistics. . .but we have the disappointment. > > And we have the longing. If the longing is great enough, then you will not be embarrassed to plead poverty. My wife and I used to take in handicapped foster children. We supplemented the care the state was willing to provide with superior, private therapy, although it cost are more than the money the state was willing to allot. We managed to get through by making much of the otherwise expensive therapy equipment ourselves, going to raw materials suppliers and begging and cajoling for scraps that could be used to build the equipment. Yes, it was embarrassing, but to watch a child who was called hopelessly blind learn to see, or a child who was told that he could never walk run, it was worth the momentary discomfort. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:56:39 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Flying Silos; Rendering unto IRS Message-ID: <338B74B7.3FF1@sprynet.com> apriorip@earthlink.net wrote: > > Hello Scott, > > Excellent issue about taxes: > > + It is my understanding of the current tax code that, should an > + organization "charge" for a function, the funds collected become > + taxable. If the same function is financed by "donations," no > + tax liability accrues. In the former case, the organization's > + tax-exempt status might come up for investigation; in the latter, > + the question does not arise, nor would it arise if the function > + were gratis. If my understanding is incorrect, I welcome > + correction. I didn't notice Scott's original posting, so I am responding to the quote. For a religious organization in New York State, they are allowed to charge for some things, but they must have regular meetings for which there is no charge. Donations may be taken, and even suggested, but there must be nothing resembling coercion, meaning that the donations cannot be a thinly veiled fee. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:09:45 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: The Price of Truth Message-ID: <199705280013.UAA21932@NetGSI.com> >The Dalai Lama will be speaking near the Los Angeles >area. The charge is $200 for good seats and $100 for seats >that aren't as good. Can I judge him as wrong for giving >a program that charges money? Was it unfair that members >of the local Tibetan group could get the $200 tickets for >$100, a special offer that was not available to the >general public? No and no. I learned a long time ago that if things are given away too easily, they are held in contemp (or at least with small respect). People only respect what they have to pay for (money, time, sweat, or whatever). Example: We have had NFCs (Norweign Forest Cats) that were not selling well for some reason. We raised the price, and they were sold almost immediately. It is also a fact of life that the people who complain about their cats the most are those who paid the lowest prices. Those who have paid the highest prices have never complained. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:02:18 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: 7th Kahuna Principle Message-ID: <199705280013.UAA21927@NetGSI.com> >...Serge King's 7th Kahuna principle. "effectiveness is the >measure of Truth." If it works, without hurting anyone, use it Liesel, this is what I have been saying for years. Theory has to be put into practice before its meaningful. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:58:55 -0400 From: "Gerald Schueler" Subject: Re: Price tags Message-ID: <199705280013.UAA21920@NetGSI.com> Chuck, Amen. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:07:23 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <19970527.175320.5455.16.trr@juno.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 19:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Drpsionic@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 97-05-27 19:21:18 EDT, you write: >>>Sometimes, all the 'poor' have to fight with is morals. >If that is all they have to fight with they are in real trouble if >they run up against someone who has none. > >Chuck the Heretic That's why they should do all they can to have more than morals with which to fight. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:57:05 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Society's debt? Message-ID: In message , JRC writes > IMO - we should charge *NOTHING* for any lecture, any talk, any >presentation, in any Theosophical group or lodge. Ever. We are recipients >of a fragment of wisdom so far beyond such considerations that to charge >for it is little other than a sign that we do not truly understand its >value - or the value system from whence it came. > -JRC Amen. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:23:06 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Wrong for me vs. wrong for all Message-ID: <19970527.153128.5455.13.trr@juno.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 15:10:36 -0400 (EDT) "K. Paul Johnson" writes: >Tom asks how I can simultaneously say that the choice >about lecture fees is up to an individual lodge, and that I >would boycott a lodge that charged them. Same principle as that I >"boycott" cigarettes and liquor, and don't hang out in smoke- >filled bars, but don't mind other people doing so. > >Lots of other analogies could be raised, but the bottom line is >that one can disapprove a course of action and dissociate >oneself from it without thereby trying to prevent others from >doing as they choose, or insisting that they live by one's own values. This gets to the part that I don't understand. When people say that they do not impose their morality on others, and that such imposition is wrong, I don't understand what they mean. I both do not smoke and I disapprove of those who do, but whether or not I can do both without imposing my morality on them depends on what is meant by imposing one's morality on others. I often hear the very stating of an opinion about the morality of what someone else does being included in what the imposition of one's morality means. If that is what it means, then it is impossible to boycott something without imposing one's morality on others. Since everyone affects everyone else by everything they do, saying that what others do is up to them is only virtuous in some situations, to some degree. On the other hand, if reaching out and grabbing someone's cigarette away from them is required in order to be imposing one's morality on a smoker, then I wouldn't do that and would consider it to be too much of an imposition. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:09:21 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527200921.006c0c40@90.0.0.1> Kym: >Bart listed one class at $80.00 - I couldn't afford that. Eldon wrote that >the Dalai Lama is charging $200.00 - I couldn't afford that. And I'm less >poor than most people on this planet. I can't either and won't be going, although it'll be just across town to hear him. I don't let myself feel bad about it, since there are plentiful opportunities to grow and become enriched. I leave it to each person to set their own approach to sharing the spiritual, and won't judge the Dalai Lama, nor the N.Y.T.S. as to their motives and good that they are doing. >Eldon wrote: "So what?" about this whole money thing. Well, it means >something to me. . . I would love to go to a Theosophical class, but to >plead poverty is embarrassing, nor do I want to feel that the Lodge is using >me for the daily "good deed" of almsgiving. I would so love to attend the >event with the Dalai Lama, but it is clear that will certainly not occur in >the near future. I'm not poor in terms of income, but my net worth is fairly low because of a depressed housing market. But I can appreciate how you feel, having been through periods in my live where I was lucky to be able to pay the rent. I would keep this in mind as I structured some activity. But were I, say, to start a magazine, I would consider charging a subscription so that it could keep going. Or if I published a few books, I'd want to offer them for sale rather than for a voluntary donation. In these examples, I'd have use my best judgement at the time, even if I might make a mistake. It's more important, I think, that all of us are trying in our own ways to do things to brighten the world -- more important than it is that everything is done my way or done in a way that I might be able to benefit. Even if I might not myself charge for a theosophical class, I'd still be glad that a class was happening and there were people that came and benefited from it. My emphasis would be on what I can do in my own unique way to better things rather than on being concerned that other people are trying approaches that I don't approve of. >Sometimes, all the 'poor' have to fight with is morals. We don't have >facts, charts, graphs, statistics. . .but we have the disappointment. Things are improving. Some public libraries may be offering access to the Internet. A good $20 book can be worth hundreds of hours of reflection -- pennies an hour. And friends and informal gatherings are free. There are likely more informal groups to study Theosophy, for instance, than there are lodges. There's been one at my home for perhaps five or six years with about four to eight people attending; it's not affiliated with any theosophical organization and some of the people that have come over the years would quit if membership in a T.S. were required. (We're studying some of Purucker's books.) >And we have the longing. The feeling is fairly universal. Even rich people are touched. The challenge is to pay heed to it and let it motivate new, creative acts in brightening the world. >Providentially, the message of Theosophy will continue to spread >. . .despite Theosophists. The message spreads because people are willing to *do something* because of that longing, rather that sit on their hands or finding excuses for putting it off. It doesn't have to be something that involves having money, power, political office, or national fame. It can be as simple as bringing cheer into the life of an elderly woman down the street, having no living relatives, and starved for friendship. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:20:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Flying Silos; Rendering unto IRS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970528032052.00749b24@mail.eden.com> At 04:35 PM 5/27/97 -0400, texhut@ix.netcom.com wrote: >Gentlepersons: > >In the passionate exchange inst. on the subject of when it is >proper for money to change hands, I note an extraordinary image >has been employed: someone has been accused of "firing the first >silos." > I am the guilty one to start the topic. (I sure am glad I did it.) When I saw that the Los Angeles Lodge does not charge anything and admission is free, it made my day and posted it here. All the discussions followed. >I am new to the list, and certainly not theosophicalier than >anyone, but did the author truly mean to convey an image >evocative of Sherman's progress through the South? Or, stranger >yet, an agricultural version of Star Wars? Or did the gentleman >simply mean to write "salvo"? > You may be new to the list. You are as much important as everyone else here no matter how long they have been on the list. Welcome aboard! >Presumably, he meant the latter. Odd that, having been taken to >task on so many other matters, he was not taken to task on this >one as well. > >It is my understanding of the current tax code that, should an >organization "charge" for a function, the funds collected become >taxable. If the same function is financed by "donations," no >tax liability accrues. In the former case, the organization's >tax-exempt status might come up for investigation; in the latter, >the question does not arise, nor would it arise if the function >were gratis. If my understanding is incorrect, I welcome >correction. > The issues are very simple. There are several kinds of tax exempt organization. We will address only those which are in the category of "churches" and other spiritual organizations. Tax exempt organizations are allowed to charge for anything in furtherance of their objectives they stated when the tax exemption was applied for. There is another principle that you are allowed to charge so that the cost of providing the service is recouped. This is to prevent tax exempt funds benefitting its members or the followers. If tax exempt organizations involve in activities that are unrelated to its tax exempt purpose, then any net income from such activities will be taxed like any other business corporation. For example a church or temple gets into say convenience store business. Coming to donation, there is no problem with any amount of donation being received by a tax exempt organization. But for the donors to deduct it in their tax returns, the issue is simply does the donor get any tangible benefit in return. For example there may be a fund raising dinner in which the donation is $100 per plate. The cost of food may be $15. The donor can only deduct $85 in the tax return. All income - (stock) investment and interest is tax exempt. The organization may have some surplus funds which they may want to invest. However, if the main activity of tax exempt organization is investment, then even their tax exempt status may be in trouble. One issue that I would like to bring up. That is the issue of control. If a tax exempt organization is indirectly controlled by another "theoretically" unrelated organization, then such indirect or secret control can cause serious problems. This is more serious if the control is exercised from outside the country. >It would seem to me that those who running the various Lodges >might wish to be reminded of this legal peculiarity from time to >time, and have a care that they are keeping it in mind. > > >Scott Hutton Glad you brought it up. When you remind the legal issues, especially the older organizations become very complacent and ignor them until the whole thing blows up. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:27:07 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Price of Truth Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970528032707.0071fa74@mail.eden.com> At 08:13 PM 5/27/97 -0400, Gerald Schueler wrote: >>The Dalai Lama will be speaking near the Los Angeles >>area. The charge is $200 for good seats and $100 for seats >>that aren't as good. Can I judge him as wrong for giving >>a program that charges money? Was it unfair that members >>of the local Tibetan group could get the $200 tickets for >>$100, a special offer that was not available to the >>general public? > >No and no. I learned a long time ago that if things are >given away too easily, they are held in contemp (or at >least with small respect). People only respect what >they have to pay for (money, time, sweat, or >whatever). May be my situation is not normal. All the best things have happened to me with no expense on my part - money, time, sweat or whatever. So in my turn I tend to view it the same way when I can help anyone. The extent to which they benefit is something over which I have no control. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:29:37 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Arguing with Bart (reply to Paul) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527202937.006c9bb4@90.0.0.1> Paul: >The technique that I allowed myself to be harassed with for far >too long by someone else on this list is this: >1. Take the position that others have to explain themselves to >you, but that you don't owe them an explanation of anything. >2. Get them to invest time and energy in trying to >explain their point of view. >3. Then pick whatever points of their explanation >you want to challenge, ignore the rest, and further demand that >they explain those. >4. Maintain the position that they must defend and explain >themselves, and see how long you can get them to play that game. >If you can get them to expend great amounts of time and energy >explaining and defending their point of view, and all you have >to do is demand further explanations and defenses, you "win." What you say here makes me think of the discussion you and Jerry Hejka-Ekins had earlier in the year. The discussion was on how an academic critique and defense might be conducted. You were presenting some theories and offering supporting evidence. The approach taken towards challenging and possibly discrediting your theories, Jerry was saying, was about par for what you'd find in academic circles. I'm not aware that any of your statements of personal philosophy were attacked in this way, but I could have missed or forgotten some if they were. When any of us are presenting our philosophical ideas, perhaps sounding out some new ones for the very first time, it would be both cruel and arrogant if someone, out of the blue, came along and blasted us, perhaps because we've said something that hits a raw nerve with them, or makes light of one of their closely-held beliefs. While you're in the philosophical arena, Paul, I'd expect you to be treated with equal respect with everyone else, and the debating technique you outlined would be wrong. But you're well aware that when you put on your academic hat and speak as an historian, that your hypotheses are open to academic review according to what is considered "fair game" in that field. Respectfully, -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:29:13 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970528032913.00727d20@mail.eden.com> At 11:08 PM 5/27/97 -0400, Eldon B. Tucker wrote: >>Providentially, the message of Theosophy will continue to spread >>. . .despite Theosophists. > >The message spreads because people are willing to *do something* >because of that longing, rather that sit on their hands or finding >excuses for putting it off. It doesn't have to be something that >involves having money, power, political office, or national fame. >It can be as simple as bringing cheer into the life of an elderly >woman down the street, having no living relatives, and starved >for friendship. > >-- Eldon That has been my experience as well. Let us *do something* about anything. Some action is better than no action. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:56:33 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: The Price of Truth Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527205633.006c6d0c@90.0.0.1> Jerry S: >I learned a long time ago that if things are >given away too easily, they are held in contempt (or at >least with small respect). People only respect what >they have to pay for (money, time, sweat, or >whatever). Your reply leads me to consider an important point. Perhaps people more involved with making money, participating in the Western World's materialistic rat race, value money more highly. To them, they both have the money to pay for seminars and get the feeling that what they're getting is more valuable if it comes with a higher price tag. By offering *to them* programs that are costly, they'll come, pay the money, and be more intent on what they're taught. This is, in a way, a form of market segmentation. To those that can pay and appreciate things more if they're with a price tag, a program with fees would be appealing. To another segment of seekers, a free program with no mention of money would be a key element. Perhaps there isn't a single way that would work for everyone, everywhere, all the time. (I say this, though, feeling it hard to justify big fees for spiritual or self-improvement programs, especially if the profits are not going to some worthy cause, being used instead to line someone's pockets.) -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:06:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <970528000613_1523238199@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-27 21:20:46 EDT, you write: >That's why they should do all they can to have more than morals with >which to fight. > > I agree. Moral suasion only works on those who can be swayed. Everyone else needs either money or cannon. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 07:25:30 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <338C162A.58E6@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > >Providentially, the message of Theosophy will continue to spread. . . > >despite Theosophists. > > And in spite of those who aren't willing to pay for it. Note, however, that there are ways of paying other than money. In our Lodge, for example, there are a number of members who don't volunteer, and can't pay. But they show up at the meetings, they learn, they understand, and they try to share their understanding with outers. Sometimes, that is payment enough. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 07:31:37 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Price of Truth Message-ID: <338C1799.41EA@sprynet.com> Gerald Schueler wrote: > Example: We have had NFCs (Norweign Forest Cats) > that were not selling well for some reason. We raised > the price, and they were sold almost immediately. It > is also a fact of life that the people who complain about > their cats the most are those who paid the lowest prices. > Those who have paid the highest prices have never > complained. That is the experience we had with our public classes at the NYTS. We were charging largely token amounts for high-quality classes, and nobody was showing up. When we raised our fees to 2/3 to 3/4 of the market rate, attendence shot up. Without these classes, we would be operating in the red; with them, we are breaking even (note, however, that Theosophical classes are still free, or with a low fee that is for all intents and purposes voluntary). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 May 97 9:28:43 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Imposing one's values Message-ID: <199705281328.JAA11614@leo.vsla.edu> But Tom, if not going to the meetings of a spiritual group whose practices or beliefs I disapprove/disagree with amounts to imposing my values on them... we're all imposing our values on everybody all the time! (Except for whatever group we *do* belong to and participate in.) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:42:02 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Imposing one's values Message-ID: <19970528.095638.5455.1.trr@juno.com> On Wed, 28 May 1997 09:28:55 -0400 (EDT) "K. Paul Johnson" writes: >But Tom, if not going to the meetings of a spiritual group >whose practices or beliefs I disapprove/disagree with amounts to >imposing my >values on them... we're all imposing our values on everybody >all the time! (Except for whatever group we *do* belong to and >participate in.) Yes, it is hard to describe a non-action as imposing one's values on others, even though, indirectly, that is what I consider it, to a degree, but I was referring more to a more active expression of disapproval of what others do, and then claiming to also have the virtue of not imposing one's morality. That is what seems strange to me. It seems to imply the very opposite of one of the fundamental ideas of theosophy, also. If all of humanity is one interconnected whole, then only to some extent can certain actions be wrong for some people and right for others. If smoking is wrong for me, it is probably generally wrong for others, also, the possibility of exceptions notwithstanding. Different lodges probably are in different enough situations from each other so that it may be right for some to charge and wrong for others to charge, but there are also common factors that they all share which would suggest that, regarding those factors at least, such as that they all have bills to pay and that they all want to reach as many people as possible, either all should charge or none should. As always, it is a case of a mixture of opposites, a certain balance between the two being optimal. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:03:01 -0000 From: "Anna S. Bjornsdottir & E.A." Subject: RE: Money, argument, logic Message-ID: <01BC6BD4.8F70BBA0@rvik-ppp-201.ismennt.is> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC6BD4.8F818480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Robertson wrote: > >Providentially, the message of Theosophy will continue to spread. . . > >despite Theosophists. >=20 > And in spite of those who aren't willing to pay for it. Note, however, that there are ways of paying other than money. In our Lodge, for example, there are a number of members who don't volunteer, and can't pay. But they show up at the meetings, they learn, they understand, and they try to share their understanding with outers. Sometimes, that is payment enough. Bart Lidofsky ---------------------------------- Why are we talking so much about payment and money? How about 'to give', = 'to share', 'to receive gifts'?=20 Money are not important here, attitude towards money is... -=20 A payment can be many things. It can be a token of love and = appreciation, it can be a demand for sevice - a bargain, it can be a = bribe. We won't probably be able in many instances to see the = difference, although often we can have a feeling. The same goes for the demand for payment. It can be an opportunity of = fairness "you are not obliged to owing me anything, if you pay me fair = amount for my time.=20 But finding the right way to deal with money may be difficult. If we = have a problem with money, it's all a case of human weaknesses. What we probably are seeking in our theosophical manner is to find a = proper way to share, without running into those weaknesses. In our = theosophical community we should try to solve it without rigidity, = without strict rules, conformity and condemnation. We should be out on = our watch, and try to do as much sharing and as little bargaining as = possible. But we should always have our mind to the factor of sharing = and giving, because giving is the single most effective way to happiness = ther is. But we can't all engage in giving only. Someone has to do the = sacrifice of receiving.=20 When it all adds up, it is the feeling of ownership we should be looking = at. Ownership is a venerable disease with us humans, and one of the most = persistent one! We 'own' cars, houses, mony, you name it. We seem to = think that we 'own' our body, altough it?s obviously a part of nature. = We 'own' our family, a fact that creates wars in a lot of families.=20 Here on this list we obviously love our ideas, our knowledge, our = opinions, and love to show it off. And it's almost if having our car = scratches or ruined, if someone speak harsly about our precious ideas. But most of all we love our reputation, our identity. it is obviously = our most precious possession, and also the last fetter we have to get = rid of before the enlightenment.=20 So, take greed, arrogance, and pride - and we have pinpointed the = problem of payment or not. So, if I don't take money for my lectures, I don't expect anyone to = belive or agree on what I say, and I give a hoot about what people think = of me as a person - that should give me a pritty high rating on the = scale, or what?!! WRONG question! - Do I know how to give to gice myself, my whole being - = do I master the skill of receiving gifts, listening to people, share = their problems - do I know how to share, how to understand?=20 I don't know - but it is an imprtant question - that I know. With love - Einar From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:05:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Is TS a Money Making Concern? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970529140528.006e3424@mail.eden.com> Hello: In the light of the discussions we had over the last couple of days, I chanced to look at Key to Theosophy and surely enough the money issue was discussed by HPB. I am posting the relevant pages. They were extracted from TUP's on line publication of Key to Theosophy. Hope re-visiting the book is useful. .....doss ================================================ IS THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY A MONEY-MAKING CONCERN? ENQUIRER. Agreed. Well, have either of the Founders, Colonel H. S. Olcott or H. P. Blavatsky, ever made any money, profit, or derived any worldly benefit from the T. S., as some papers say? THEOSOPHIST. Not one penny. The papers lie. On the contrary, they have both given all they had, and literally beggared themselves. As for "worldly benefits," think of the calumnies and vilification they have been subjected to, and then ask the question! ENQUIRER. Yet I have read in a good many missionary organs that the entrance fees and subscriptions much more than covered all expenses; and one said that the Founders were making twenty thousand pounds a year! THEOSOPHIST. This is a fib, like many others. In the published accounts of January, 1889, you will find an exact statement of all the money ever received from any source since 1879. The total received from all sources (entrance fees, donations, etc., etc.) during these ten years is under six thousand pounds, and of this a large part was contributed by the Founders themselves from the proceeds of their private resources and their literary work. All this has been openly and officially admitted, even by our enemies, the Psychic Research Society. And now both the Founders are penniless: one, too old and ill to work as she did before, unable to spare time for outside literary work to help the Society in money, can only write for the Theosophical cause; the other keeps labouring for it as before, and receives as little thanks for it. ENQUIRER. But surely they need money to live? THEOSOPHIST. Not at all. So long as they have food and lodging, even though they owe it to the devotion of a few friends, they need little more. ENQUIRER. But could not Madame Blavatsky, especially, make more than enough to live upon by her writings? THEOSOPHIST. When in India she received on the average some thousand rupees a year for articles contributed to Russian and other papers, but gave it all away to the Society. ENQUIRER. Political articles? THEOSOPHIST. Never. Everything she has written throughout the seven years of her stay in India is all there in print. It deals only with the religions, ethnology, and customs of India, and with Theosophy -- never with politics, of which she knows nothing and cares less. Again, two years ago she refused several contracts amounting together to about 1,200 roubles in gold per month; for she could not accept them without abandoning her work for the Society, which needed all her time and strength. She has documents to prove it. ENQUIRER. But why could not both she and Colonel Olcott do as others -- notably many Theosophists -- do: follow out their respective professions and devote the surplus of their time to the work of the Society? THEOSOPHIST. Because by serving two masters, either the professional or the philanthropic work would have had to suffer. Every true Theosophist is morally bound to sacrifice the personal to the impersonal, his own present good to the future benefit of other people. If the Founders do not set the example, who will? ENQUIRER. And are there many who follow it? THEOSOPHIST. I am bound to answer you the truth. In Europe about half-a-dozen in all, out of more than that number of Branches. ENQUIRER. Then it is not true that the Theosophical Society has a large capital or endowment of its own? THEOSOPHIST. It is false, for it has none at all. Now that the entrance fee of Ģl and the small annual due have been abolished, it is even a doubtful question whether the staff at the head-quarters in India will not soon be starved to death. ENQUIRER. Then why not raise subscriptions? THEOSOPHIST. We are not the Salvation Army; we cannot and have never begged; nor have we ever followed the example of the Churches and sects and "taken up collections." That which is occasionally sent for the support of the Society, the small sums contributed by some devoted Fellows, are all voluntary donations. ENQUIRER. But I have heard of large sums of money given to Mdme. Blavatsky. It was said four years ago that she got Pounds 5,000 from one rich, young "Fellow," who went out to join them in India, and Ģ10,000 from another wealthy and well-known American gentleman, one of your members who died in Europe four years ago. THEOSOPHIST. Say to those who told you this, that they either themselves utter, or repeat, a gross falsehood. Never has "Madame Blavatsky" asked or received ONE PENNY from the two above-named gentlemen, nor anything like that from anyone else, since the Theosophical Society was founded. Let any man living try to substantiate this calumny, and it will be easier for him to prove that the Bank of England is a bankrupt than that the said "Founder" has ever made any money out of Theosophy. These two calumnies have been started by two high-born ladies, belonging to the London aristocracy, and have been immediately traced and disproved. They are the dead bodies, the carcases of two inventions, which, after having been buried in the sea of oblivion, are once more raised on the surface of the stagnant waters of slander. ENQUIRER. Then I have been told of several large legacies left to the T. S. One -- some Ģ8,000 -- was left to it by some eccentric Englishman, who did not even belong to the Society. The other -- Ģ3,000 or Ģ4,000 -- were testated by an Australian F. T. S. Is this true? THEOSOPHIST. I heard of the first; and I also know that, whether legally left or not, the T. S. has never profited by it, nor have the Founders ever been officially notified of it. For, as our Society was not then a chartered body, and thus had no legal existence, the Judge at the Court of Probate, as we were told, paid no attention to such legacy and turned over the sum to the heirs. So much for the first. As for the second, it is quite true. The testator was one of our devoted Fellows, and willed all he had to the T. S. But when the President, Colonel Olcott, came to look into the matter, he found that the testator had children whom he had disinherited for some family reasons. Therefore, he called a council, and it was decided that the legacy should be refused, and the moneys passed to the legal heirs. The Theosophical Society would be untrue to its name were it to profit by money to which others are entitled virtually, at any rate on Theosophical principles, if not legally. ENQUIRER. Again, and I say this on the authority of your own journal, the Theosophist, there's a Rajah of India who donated to the Society 25,000 rupees. Have you not thanked him for his great bounty in the January Theosophist for 1888? THEOSOPHIST. We have, in these words, "That the thanks of the Convention be conveyed to H. H. the Maharajah . . . for his promised munificent gift of Rupees 25,000 to the Society's Fund." The thanks were duly conveyed, but the money is still a "promise," and has never reached the Headquarters. ENQUIRER. But surely, if the Maharajah promised and received thanks for his gift publicly and in print, he will be as good as his promise? THEOSOPHIST. He may, though the promise is 18 months old. I speak of the present and not of the future. ENQUIRER. Then how do you propose to go on? THEOSOPHIST. So long as the T. S. has a few devoted members willing to work for it without reward and thanks, so long as a few good Theosophists support it with occasional donations, so long will it exist, and nothing can crush it. ENQUIRER. I have heard many Theosophists speak of a "power behind the Society" and of certain "Mahatmas," mentioned also in Mr. Sinnett's works, that are said to have founded the Society, to watch over and protect it. THEOSOPHIST. You may laugh, but it is so. THE WORKING STAFF OF THE T. S. ENQUIRER. These men, I have heard, are great Adepts, Alchemists, and what not. If, then, they can change lead into gold and make as much money as they like, besides doing all kinds of miracles at will, as related in Mr. Sinnett's "Occult World," why do not they find you money, and support the Founders and the Society in comfort? THEOSOPHIST. Because they did not found a "miracle club." Because the Society is intended to help men to develop the powers latent in them through their own exertions and merit. Because whatever they may or may not produce in the way of phenomena, they are not false coiners; nor would they throw an additional and very strong temptation on the path of members and candidates: Theosophy is not to be bought. Hitherto, for the past 14 years, not a single working member has ever received pay or salary from either the Masters or the Society. ENQUIRER. Then are none of your workers paid at all? THEOSOPHIST. Till now, not one. But as every one has to eat, drink, and clothe himself, all those who are without any means of their own, and devote their whole time to the work of the society, are provided with the necessaries of life at the Head-quarters at Madras, India, though these "necessaries" are humble enough, in truth! (See Rules at the end.) But now that the Society's work has increased so greatly and still goes on increasing (N. B., owing to slanders) in Europe, we need more working hands. We hope to have a few members who will henceforth be remunerated -- if the word can be used in the cases in question. For every one of these Fellows, who are preparing to give all their time to the Society, are quitting good official situations with excellent prospects, to work for us at less than half their former salary. ENQUIRER. And who will provide the funds for this? THEOSOPHIST. Some of our Fellows who are just a little richer than the rest. The man who would speculate or make money on Theosophy would be unworthy to remain in our ranks. ENQUIRER. But you must surely make money by your books, magazines, and other publications? THEOSOPHIST. The Theosophist of Madras, alone among the magazines, pays a profit, and this has regularly been turned over to the Society, year by year, as the published accounts show. Lucifer is slowly but steadily ingulfing money, never yet having paid its expenses -- thanks to its being boycotted by the pious booksellers and railway stalls. The Lotus, in France -- started on the private and not very large means of a Theosophist, who has devoted to it his whole time and labour -- has ceased to exist, owing to the same causes, alas! Nor does the New York Path pay its way, while the Revue Theosophique of Paris has only just been started, also from the private means of a lady-member. Moreover, whenever any of the works issued by the Theosophical Publishing Company in London do pay, the proceeds will be devoted to the service of the Society. ENQUIRER. And now please tell me all you can about the Mahatmas. So many absurd and contradictory things are said about them, that one does not know what to believe, and all sorts of ridiculous stories become current. THEOSOPHIST. Well may you call them "ridiculous!" ------------------------end--------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 97 10:12:55 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Disclosure statement? Message-ID: <199705291412.KAA19836@leo.vsla.edu> Having found that readers sometimes make wild assumptions about where an author is coming from (e.g. TMR a vicious attack on HPB, TMR a sappy idealization of HPB) I thought with the Cayce book to put something up front explaining my approach. Perhaps to forestall the more extreme misreadings. Have seen another author get raked over the coals for not disclosing his own background relative to the material he was discussing. But what I wrote so far for the Cayce book (3-4pp.) has been found wanting or irrelevant by a couple of readers. I decided to condense it to a single para, and then decide if it was worthwhile including same. So I'm asking theos-l readers to evaluate it. But more generally: 1. Do you want or need some explanation from an author of his own affiliations or biases? 2. Does an author owe this to readers, or is it none of their business? Here's the para: The overall intention of this book is to provide a sympathetic but objective introduction to the readings. In practice, this means to attempt first to understand them in their own terms, rather than through the lens of an antagonistic or indifferent approach. My own sympathy was derived from years of positive impressions growing up in Tidewater Virginia in a family favorable inclined to Cayce and the A.R.E. As an adult I have been strongly influenced by the readings' guidelines on health and meditation, and have participated in Search for God groups on several occasions. But balancing sympathy with objectivity entails a refusal to allow one's perceptions of facts to be clouded by the value one perceives (or denies) in the person or movement under consideration. I have tried to evaluate the accuracy of the readings and their similarity to other sources without allowing my liking for Cayce to distort the process. ----- Still sounds goofy, and maybe should be left out completely. No matter what I say, true believers will say I'm attacking Cayce and arch-skeptics will say I'm a credulous fool. Like the experiment of putting one hand in cold water and the other in hot, then taking both and putting them in lukewarm water. The hot hand perceives the lukewarm water as cold, the cold hand as hot. And I have the curse or blessing of being lukewarm compared to most people, about the "paranormal" as well as about specific figures. Recently someone in the New York Times Book Review said that ambivalence is a sure sign of truth. Maybe so; at least it's a sign of openness to both sides of an issue. Comments? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:23:59 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Disclosure statement? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970529142359.007119f0@mail.eden.com> At 10:13 AM 5/29/97 -0400, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > >Having found that readers sometimes make wild assumptions about >where an author is coming from (e.g. TMR a vicious attack on >HPB, TMR a sappy idealization of HPB) I thought with the Cayce >book to put something up front explaining my approach. Perhaps >to forestall the more extreme misreadings. > >Have seen another author get raked over the coals for not >disclosing his own background relative to the material he was >discussing. But what I wrote so far for the Cayce book >(3-4pp.) has been found wanting or irrelevant by a couple of >readers. > >I decided to condense it to a single para, and then decide if >it was worthwhile including same. So I'm asking theos-l >readers to evaluate it. But more generally: > >1. Do you want or need some explanation from an author of his >own affiliations or biases? >2. Does an author owe this to readers, or is it none of their >business? > >Here's the para: > >The overall intention of this book is to provide a sympathetic >but objective introduction to the readings. In practice, this >means to attempt first to understand them in their own terms, >rather than through the lens of an antagonistic or indifferent >approach. My own sympathy was derived from years of positive >impressions growing up in Tidewater Virginia in a family >favorable inclined to Cayce and the A.R.E. As an adult I have >been strongly influenced by the readings' guidelines on health >and meditation, and have participated in Search for God groups >on several occasions. But balancing sympathy with objectivity >entails a refusal to allow one's perceptions of facts to be >clouded by the value one perceives (or denies) in the person or >movement under consideration. I have tried to evaluate the >accuracy of the readings and their similarity to other sources >without allowing my liking for Cayce to distort the process. > >----- > >Still sounds goofy, and maybe should be left out completely. >No matter what I say, true believers will say I'm attacking >Cayce and arch-skeptics will say I'm a credulous fool. Like the >experiment of putting one hand in cold water and the other in >hot, then taking both and putting them in lukewarm water. The >hot hand perceives the lukewarm water as cold, the cold hand as >hot. And I have the curse or blessing of being lukewarm >compared to most people, about the "paranormal" as well as >about specific figures. Recently someone in the New York Times Book >Review said that ambivalence is a sure sign of truth. Maybe so; at >least it's a sign of openness to both sides of an issue. > >Comments? > Dear Paul: What you have written is ok and go ahead. In all these things I think what each one has to look at is the simple question, "am I being honest to myself." If the answer is yes, I would not worry about who agrees or attacks. In addition, it has been my experience that anyone touched and affected by T/theosophy does produce a change in their approach to everything however not noticeable in many cases. The very fact that in spite of the attacks on you and may be differences we may have on individual issues, you still continue to participate on theos-l and speaks very loudly for you. Godspeed. .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:48:24 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Disclosure statement? Message-ID: <338D7AFD.DF767523@earthlink.net> ideas/paragraph just fine... I like to phrase things with a positive tint...ex: instead of the word "antagonism" maybe use a less acrimonious word..just style to set a positive tone for the book... Don't let the assualts of antagonists control your phraseology!  :) Shanti, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:55:48 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic, how to fight Message-ID: <199705291755.KAA07175@palrel1.hp.com> After the dust has settled, it seems there is more agreement on the role of money than was first apparent. Anyway, Kym and Chuck raised some interesting questions. Someone (original poster's name lost) wrote: > That's why they should do all they can to have more than morals with > which to fight. And Chuck responded: > I agree. Moral suasion only works on those who can be swayed. > Everyone else needs either money or cannon. For a behavioral change to be permanent and of good effect, backed by sincerity, attitudes have to change. We have to suppose that somewhere deep inside people is something that resonates to morals. Unfortunately, depending on the person and circumstances, it can take lifetimes to come out. When behavior hurts others, out of immediate necessity we resort to outward enforcement. Positive change, therefore, is influenced on several levels: 1. Addressing attitudes 2. By self serving incentives, such as monetary rewards 3. By civil laws 4. By law enforcement, up to and including imprisonment. At what level do you prefer to work at? Most "religious" figures worked primarily at level 1. Jesus, for example, did so totally. Judging how much "intervention" is called for when something hurts others is a rather gray area. While I personally think there is no victimless crime and that we all share the same psychic air, we are also all human and sometimes hurt others out of ignorance. We are asked to bear one another's sins to some degree. I prefer to respect a person's volition. If I think something is wrong or it harms others, I'll try to be maintain an attitude not of condemnation, but of trying to help. Sometimes that means speaking up. I know I sound like a broken record on this, but discerning a behavior that is harmful need not be judgmental. "Judge not that ye be not judged." In other words, we remember that we make mistakes out of ignorance too. But a mistake is a mistake. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:43:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Disclosure statement? Message-ID: <970529144309_-1330456935@emout19.mail.aol.com> Paul, People will read things into a book no matter what you say. You would be amazed at the number of idiots that took an obvious joke seriously in my first book on psionics. You cannot be responsible for such things, so just write as best you can and don't worry about the reviews. My best sales came after a local fundamentalist TV show characterized me as an agent of the Antichrist. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:51:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Money, argument, logic, how to fight Message-ID: <970529145052_877081886@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-29 14:31:30 EDT, you write: >1. Addressing attitudes >2. By self serving incentives, such as monetary rewards >3. By civil laws >4. By law enforcement, up to and including imprisonment. > > That is, of course assuming that law and its enforcement can work. But if the superior power is in the hands of the other side (the Chinese in Tibet, for example) the options become very limited. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:40:02 GMT From: "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." Subject: The way ahead, part 1. Message-ID: <199705292140.VAA25878@rvik.ismennt.is> Hi, folks. I had meant to send this article long time ago. It was mentioned this winter, but I feel that it should have a place in today's discussion, as it is quite an 'eye opener' in my view. Take it as it is. I hope that you enjoy it. Einar. ----------------------------------- THE WAY AHEAD, by Adam Warcup. The times they are changing" sang Bob Dylan. In this article I would like to explore one of the fundamental changes in outlook and approach Which is currently sweeping through our culture. It is perhaps time for The Theosophical Society to acknowledge sea-change, and adopt to it if we wish to remain in tune with the times. The hierarchical style has been dominant for thousands of years. It can be seen exemplified in organisations like armies, churches, schools and government departments. A hierarchical organisation has a chief such as a general, a pope, a president or an emperor. then follows a series of organisation: field marshals, brigadiers, colonels and finally foot soldiers. Powers invested in these positions and the chain of command is established. The colonel issues the order, which is implemented in increasing levels of details. Finally the foot soldiers execute the orders, this can be pictured as a pyramid; the chief is at the top of the pyramid and the foot soldiers make up the base. Typically me foot soldiers, the peasants and the laity in the church have no power to control events, but are expected to do what they are told. A network is totally different. It is a flat organisation in which each individual is acknowledged as being as valuable as every other. An operating telephone network is a good example. It is made up of a large number of users who are interconnected via telephone lines and exchanges. The network exists for the use of subscribers - without them it would all fall apart because it would have no purpose. When compared with a hierarchical organisation a number of things become apparent. Power is in the hands of the many; the 'few' exist to serve the many. Engineers exist to maintain the lines and exchanges. Managers exist to ensure the smooth running of the physical network. Planners exist to forecast growth in demand. Secondly, the organisation is flat rather than pyramid shaped and everything is open to inspection. Information does not confer power on the few. Thirdly, the purpose and motivation comes from the members, the users, not from leader or an elite. An interesting example of a modern network is the Internet - users who have access to information stored on a large number of computer systems world-wide. The TS is a good example of a hierarchical organisation: it has an international president and general council at the apex of the pyramid. In each country there is a General Secretary, an Executive Committee, below that a National Council and then a number of Federations - each with a president and a council. Within each Federation mere is a number lodges, again each with a president. Only then organisationally do we reach me ordinary members. It seems at times that the structure is more important than the members it is supposed to support We find all the weaknesses of a hierarchical organisation. First it fosters elitism: it is better to be a Lodge, federation or national officer than a 'mere' member. Second there are secrecy issues there is information that that only certain people have access to, books in libraries that only certain members can borrow and read, groups that only certain members can attend and so on. To be followed by part two....... With LOVE to you all. Einar from Iceland. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Let's change the world to the better, by each of us changing ourselves, TOGETHER. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:40:29 GMT From: "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." Subject: The way Ahead - 2. Message-ID: <199705292140.VAA25904@rvik.ismennt.is> The Way Ahead, by Adam Warcup - part 2. When we contrast this with a networked approach to organisation a number of important issues become apparent. First, the actual reason why the organisation exists becomes of major importance. Our first declared Object that of forming the nucleus of universal brotherhood. is not why most of us become members. We want to know what Theosophy is, and how it can be practised - an entirely educational need which can only be supplied by other people. In this context it is instructive to recall H. P. B.'s words. 'The Theosophical Society was formed to let it be known that such a thing as Theosophy exists...' Is this not entirely educational? Second the pyramid becomes inverted. The members who form the base become of paramount importance. The rest of the Society's infrastructure exists solely to provide an educational service. Third, there is no need for a formal structure. The real work of the Society only takes place whenever a group of members meets. It is they who decide on the programme, whether it is to be a lecture, seminar, a study group. The only justification for a network organised Society holding assets, whether they be financial or real estate, is for agreed educational purposes. There is, perhaps, a need for a property in London where administrative tasks can be carried out and educational events can be staged. But do we need an estate in the country? If we were to adopt such a networked approach, we would first have to accept that the members in their entirety are the only ones to set the ground rules, and to appoint people for executive roles. If other members are to be elected to office, it must be the entire membership who so elects them. There would be no loom for an electoral college such as the National Council with powers to elect a General Secretary. The same principle would apply to deciding on 'matters of broad policy' which are currently decided on by the National Council, not by the whole membership. Equally the constitution and rules governing the Society's administration would be in the hands of the many rather than the few. The functions carried out by at the Headquarters, such as accountancy, membership recording, library maintenance etc. would be seen as support services. The old hierarchical pyramid becomes inverted. The wide base is now at the top of the diagram because it is acknowledged that the totality of the membership is where the power comes from, not from a post or committee. The only justification for a centralised headquarters is to provide educational support services for the whole Society. Arranging lectures, seminars, study groups etc. around the whole country is a goad example of such an educational service. I would like to see this fundamental issue become the subject of a debate within the whole section This might lead to a national referendum being held to agree in principle that such a radical restructuring of the English Section be implemented. 1 would be very interested in your comments. Adam Warcup The writer is a former General Secretary of The Theosophical Society in England and internationally acclaimed lecturer on core theosophical subjects Grettings - Einar With LOVE to you all. Einar from Iceland. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Let's change the world to the better, by each of us changing ourselves, TOGETHER. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:52:22 GMT From: "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." Subject: TS Iceland - URL: Message-ID: <199705292152.VAA26285@rvik.ismennt.is> It might interest some of you to visit the Homepage of the Icelandic section. It is under construction, and will be for a while, but there is an english language version for you to read. Please be free to comment to me directly or through the list. http://www.itn.is/~theosoph/english Love and light. Einar With LOVE to you all. Einar from Iceland. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Let's change the world to the better, by each of us changing ourselves, TOGETHER. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:22:35 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Is TS a Money Making Concern? Message-ID: <338E01AB.1A1B@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Hello: > > In the light of the discussions we had over the last couple of days, I > chanced to look at Key to Theosophy and surely enough the money issue was > discussed by HPB. I am posting the relevant pages. They were extracted from > TUP's on line publication of Key to Theosophy. Hope re-visiting the book is > useful. Note that the questions being asked are whether the Theosophical Society in general, and Blavatsky and Olcott in particular, MAKING A PROFIT. And note that the monastic style with which Blavatsky describes the TS in India as having turns the Theosophical Society into a religious practice, something against which the Mahatmas warned. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:57:32 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Disclosure statement? Message-ID: In message <199705291412.KAA19836@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >1. Do you want or need some explanation from an author of his >own affiliations or biases? Of course. >2. Does an author owe this to readers, or is it none of their >business? An author owes this to his/her readers. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:14:16 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: Wierd dreams Message-ID: <338E1BD8.48E2@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hello friends I wanted to ask you, what Theosophy says about dreams, speccialy strange dreams.seems sometimes that we have very vivid and clear dreams, but some dreams are very wierd and strange. In Theosophy says that in your dreamss you can some times see some great masters of wisdom, is it true? and another question: how can possibly can know if we had maked contact with some great master of wisdom , or some great wise master more earthly bound (that can be some of us for example, and we can barely notice him) Estrella P.S. and another question, for the person (i think was Eldon) how u can possibly see the images someone sends you in mail in Netscape system of mail? seems that this person send some images, but unfortunately i could'nt see it, only numbers and letters i could see. if someone here knows how to see them, i will gladly thank you. i think it's all for now...leaving more questions for the other letter. A salute to Thoa,Liesel,Kym,Lynn,Doss and the others. P.S.S. In the money issue, the thing depends in the degree of selfishness and/or the amount of salary in the nation/city involved. In Mexico, with every spend being a great pain in budget, share and friendship/solidarity are greatly bound.it has to be.if not, it doesn't work. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:52:21 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The way ahead Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970530015221.00679760@mail.eden.com> At 05:39 PM 5/29/97 -0400, Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B. wrote: >Hi, folks. > >I had meant to send this article long time ago. It was mentioned this >winter, but I feel that it should have a place in today's discussion, as it >is quite an 'eye opener' in my view. > >Take it as it is. I hope that you enjoy it. > >Einar. >----------------------------------- It is very timely that you posted this msg. Here are my comments: General: 1. Over 30 years ago, management professors looked at the impact of information technology on organizational structures. Several predicted that information technology is going to affect organizations so that the resulting organizations will be very very flat. 2. With increased use of computers, in many organizations, certain kinds of technical information transmission has cut across the formal lines of communications in pyramidal organizations. But the bulk of the administrative and formal communication still follows the traditional pyramidal lines of flow of information. Also, contrary to the expectations of the managements professors, we are still to see substantial flattening of the organizational structures. I think that much of this has to do with the built-in inertia to change and take risks in making changes. The risks include unexpected results for the organization as well as the top managers personally. It is also possible that time is not yet ripe for such large scale redoing of the organizational structure. There is also the contributing factor of power and authority at various levels of management. What has to happen is perhaps new breed entrepreneurs who start new businesses are more likely to result in the flat organization and then over time, the trend may pick up. Even if this happens, it is expected to take several decades so that old guards are gone the new ones take over. 3. With spiritual organizations, the problem is more complex. On the one hand we have the head at the top who has the final say on the "spiritual" message and on the other hand the same person is also the head for all administrative matters concerning financial decisions. This complicates the role of the head. Also the in built power that accrues due to access to the real estate and funds. Giving all that up requires a great person with a lot of insight and courage. TS: 4. TS has its own unique problems to deal with before any radical change can be implemented. The change if to come about, should come from the top down and not bottom up. 5. Bottom up cannot happen because of the way the set up has evolved over the last one hundred years and perhaps also due the changes that have been implemented in the recent decades. Even top down change has its own problems. The first and greatest hurdle is to get anything of this radical nature to be accepted by the General Council. Contrary to the wrong belief, it appears there have been instances where the General Council has shot down proposals initiated by the President. 6. One of the major issues to be addressed before any radical change is the question of how the property and money are to be handled. Who is going to control and how? The control issue is very difficult to address because of the inherent power involved in the allocation and distribution of resources. 7. TS has the important issue of who is going to provide the direction and leadership regarding the teachings. 8. The classics were produced during HPB's days and I do not know if all that she provided to the world has been fully digested yet. So it is very unlikely that a substantial new information is about to be released to the world. 9. Is it possible that Krishnaji saw all this flat organizational network type of set up coming when he dismantled the Order of the Star of the East and gave his famous "Truth is a Pathless Land" speech? The crux of his statement was that no organization can lead you to discovery of truth and there is no formal steps or path to truth. Of course an organization can perform the mechanical job of publishing and distribution of information. 10. One possible solution for a "Theosophical Organization" with a flat network structure seems to be a totally new one started from scratch. Such an organization does not have any of the problems of money and property that the current TS has to grapple with. My 2 cents worth rambling! ....Doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:00:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Wierd dreams Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970530020039.0072a8a0@mail.eden.com> At 08:14 PM 5/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hello friends >I wanted to ask you, what Theosophy says about dreams, speccialy strange >dreams.seems sometimes that we have very vivid and clear dreams, but >some dreams are very wierd and strange. In Theosophy says that in your >dreamss you can some times see some great masters of wisdom, is it true? >and another question: how can possibly can know if we had maked contact >with some great master of wisdom , or some great wise master more >earthly bound (that can be some of us for example, and we can barely >notice him) >Estrella Hi Estrella: Good to see your post. I think that the analogy in real world would apply to dream world also. If I were to run into a Master of Wisdom in physical world, I do not know how I would recognize him/her. After all it is the inner spirit/soul that differentiates a Master from an ordinary human being. >P.S. and another question, for the person (i think was Eldon) how u can >possibly see the images someone sends you in mail in Netscape system of >mail? seems that this person send some images, but unfortunately i >could'nt see it, only numbers and letters i could see. if someone here >knows how to see them, i will gladly thank you. >i think it's all for now...leaving more questions for the other letter. >A salute to Thoa,Liesel,Kym,Lynn,Doss and the others. >P.S.S. In the money issue, the thing depends in the degree of >selfishness and/or the amount of salary in the nation/city involved. >In Mexico, with every spend being a great pain in budget, share and >friendship/solidarity are greatly bound.it has to be.if not, it doesn't >work. > Let me try to answer. If you want a picture to be sent by e-mail, then first you need the picture to be scanned into a graphic format file such as .gif etc. Then you attach the file to your e-mail. At the other end the recipient receives the attachment file. Then using a program which will display the graphic file you display the file on your display. Also one can attach any kind of file to a e-mail msg - such as audio, video, database etc. To see/hear/use the info contained in these you need right kind of software which will "interpret" the file. May be some one can give you a better description. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:29:37 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Iceland TS Webpage Message-ID: <338E57B1.3541@eden.com> I just visited the TS Iceland Webpage and Einar has done a wonderful job . One thing that is going to make visiting the url interesting is the abundance of links to various spiritual organizations and other sources. If all you have is just some addresses and programs, there would be no incentive for visitors to visit the site. I suggest everyone in theos-l should visit the site and see for themselves. .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:05:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Is TS a Money Making Concern? Message-ID: <970530100548_843637984@emout03.mail.aol.com> With all of the brouhahahaha going on here this past week, shouldn't the subject line read: Is Making Money A TS Concern? ;-D Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:29:52 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Is TS a Money Making Concern? Message-ID: <338EE460.23C@eden.com> Wildefire@aol.com wrote: > > With all of the brouhahahaha going on here this past week, shouldn't the > subject line read: Is Making Money A TS Concern? ;-D > > Lynn Good question. Answer seems to be a very simple No. No means No! TS concern to make Theosophy reach masses and hope it will change the hearts and minds of a few. A few can change the world. One has just see what a few like Buddha, Hitler, Napoleon could achieve either lot of good or evil. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 97 11:11:18 EDT From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: The Way Ahead Message-ID: <199705301511.LAA20848@leo.vsla.edu> Question for Einar, or anyone who may know: When was the Warcup article published? Was anything done in response to it? Seems to me that Doss is right, that the top-down pattern is so firmly established in the TS (in the movement really) that change can never occur from the bottom up-- alas. For so many years, so many people have devoted so much energy into trying to save the TS from itself-- without any real progress that I can see. There was a little blip of hope when Coats was president and Dora was section head. But since then... Unfortunately, creating a new organization from scratch seems implausible too. So few people are interested in/attracted to Theosophy, and such a large percentage of them are committed to one of the existing organizations, by personal loyalties if nothing else, that there's not much potential out there for a new group. Of course, a *really* new group, that doesn't call itself Theosophical, but incorporates HPB among others as a precursor, is almost bound to develop sooner or later. Several already have, and the Anthroposophists for example seem to have a lot more vitality than the Theosophists. E. C. Prophet's CUT in its own way has stolen the Theosophical thunder too. But whether or not any such new emergent group would be to one's taste is the question. So far the only postBlavatskian movement that appeals to me is the ARE. Future such groups are likely to make M. and K.H. into spacemen, as has already been done in one of the major ufology cults. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:45:28 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Way Ahead Message-ID: <338EF618.579D@eden.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > > Question for Einar, or anyone who may know: > > When was the Warcup article published? Was anything done in > response to it? Seems to me that Doss is right, that the > top-down pattern is so firmly established in the TS (in the > movement really) that change can never occur from the bottom > up-- alas. For so many years, so many people have devoted so > much energy into trying to save the TS from itself-- without > any real progress that I can see. There was a little blip of > hope when Coats was president and Dora was section head. But > since then... > > Unfortunately, creating a new organization from scratch seems > implausible too. So few people are interested in/attracted to > Theosophy, and such a large percentage of them are committed to > one of the existing organizations, by personal loyalties if > nothing else, that there's not much potential out there for a > new group. > > Of course, a *really* new group, that doesn't call itself > Theosophical, but incorporates HPB among others as a precursor, > is almost bound to develop sooner or later. Several already > have, and the Anthroposophists for example seem to have a lot > more vitality than the Theosophists. E. C. Prophet's CUT > in its own way has stolen the Theosophical thunder too. > But whether or not any such new emergent group would be to one's > taste is the question. So far the only postBlavatskian > movement that appeals to me is the ARE. Future such groups are > likely to make M. and K.H. into spacemen, as has already been > done in one of the major ufology cults. I agree with your thoughts. There was a mention that HPB herself knew that the work of TS was to prepare the coming of a new Messenger from the the Great White Lodge -- she did mention about it in her writings -- and if the Messenger did come, then is it possible that the work of the TS is over. Just a speculation that may shock some traditionalists. But let us remember that even great religions had their day and when their time was up, they were gone. One of my reasons for this line of thinking is the fact that after Krishnaji started speaking, we never had a charismatic leader in TS. None is in sight now either. Sometimes one shudders at the potential future in the hands of a un-charismatic leadership. May be it is time for a last wake up call and see the urgency of the situation. The situation is complicated by the fact we never see any information trickling down about the thinking of the GC and their decisions in these matters. Nor any of the minutes of GC provided to the membership either. Everything is shrowded in secrecy. May be this kind of future plan information is selectively disseminated to the ES members. I do not know. I hope that the famous warning of Master KH in his 1900 letter about how unnecessary secrecy having killed many organizations does not become a reality in the case of TS. I am very confident the He saw some possibilities coming down the pike and provided a warning hint that He may be allowed to provide under Their rules. My 2 cents worth. YMDMV .............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:12:19 -0500 (CDT) From: texhut@ix.netcom.com Subject: Einar's Page Message-ID: <19975301421866334@> What a wonderful site this is!!!! http://www.itn.is/~theosoph/english Thank you, Einar, for posting it. Scott Hutton From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:58:49 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Way Ahead Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970530185849.0069dabc@mail.eden.com> At 11:11 AM 5/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >Question for Einar, or anyone who may know: > >When was the Warcup article published? Was anything done in >response to it? Seems to me that Doss is right, that the >top-down pattern is so firmly established in the TS (in the >movement really) that change can never occur from the bottom >up-- alas. For so many years, so many people have devoted so >much energy into trying to save the TS from itself-- without >any real progress that I can see. There was a little blip of >hope when Coats was president and Dora was section head. But >since then... > >Unfortunately, creating a new organization from scratch seems >implausible too. So few people are interested in/attracted to >Theosophy, and such a large percentage of them are committed to >one of the existing organizations, by personal loyalties if >nothing else, that there's not much potential out there for a >new group. > >Of course, a *really* new group, that doesn't call itself >Theosophical, but incorporates HPB among others as a precursor, >is almost bound to develop sooner or later. Several already >have, and the Anthroposophists for example seem to have a lot >more vitality than the Theosophists. E. C. Prophet's CUT >in its own way has stolen the Theosophical thunder too. >But whether or not any such new emergent group would be to one's >taste is the question. So far the only postBlavatskian >movement that appeals to me is the ARE. Future such groups are >likely to make M. and K.H. into spacemen, as has already been >done in one of the major ufology cults. Let me add some more thoughts. Internet is here and is here to say whether anyone likes it or not. It is like transportation move from auto to jetplane sans the cost. I do not think that TS leadership (at least in the USA) has understood the nature of the medium and its potential in a forward looking sense. (USA is at the forefront of Internet technology and its easy and affordable availability in the world). When you try to use the medium and still want to do it within the existing framework (=control) which was designed and used in a non Internet era, you have problems. The problem is simply you cannot have the cake as well as eat it. What today's Internet medium is doing is to breakdown the walls of traditional communication channels. Once this breakdown takes place, since information is power, there is a great potential for loss of power. Such loss of either real or perceived power, is hard to swallow by those who use them. For example, TSA does have a homepage. Some ordinary individuals had home pages long before TSA had one. What you now have is a relatively static one with very few links to anywhere else. Also do we have a global strategy to utilize Internet for communication?. Officially TSA has a single e-mail address. Have you seen any e-mail addresses of any of the National Officers? (At least I have not seen anything officially published.) How many times have anyone seen any National Officers on this (unofficial) list or any other list or Usenet newsgroup discussing issues relating to Theosophy even though it costs nothing to subscribe to this or any other list or use Usenet groups. Is there a plan to get every National Officer on e-mail? Is there a plan to get all key staff at Olcott with individual addresses? Is there a plan to induce and educate all the lodges and study centers to get on e-mail? Is there a plan to educate all lodges and study centers on the advantages of Internet so that everyone can start using their creativity and use this new medium for propagating Theosophy? Is there a plan to collect e-mail address of our members so that communications can be sent quickly and at almost no cost? At least I have not seen any. Any and all of these can lead to instantaneous communications cutting across the formal lines of communication. So it looks like we have a long way to go and hope we have enough time so that we do not miss the boat. YMDMV .................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:20:19 -0700 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Weird dreams Message-ID: <199705302020.NAA05528@palrel1.hp.com> "Romero Cortez D.Ma" wrote: > Hello friends > I wanted to ask you, what Theosophy says about dreams, speccialy strange > dreams.seems sometimes that we have very vivid and clear dreams, but > some dreams are very wierd and strange. In Theosophy says that in your > dreams you can some times see some great masters of wisdom, is it true? > and another question: how can possibly can know if we had maked contact > with some great master of wisdom , or some great wise master more > earthly bound (that can be some of us for example, and we can barely > notice him) > Estrella My recollection of what Theosophy says on the subject is rather dim. Years ago I read a book published by Quest that gave excerpts of HPB's writings on dreams. In that book there was no mention of Masters that I can recall. Not that that means They do not assist persons in their dreams. Sai Baba says that he can instruct people in their dreams. Why not other masters? And what more impersonal way to minister to humankind than in dreams? Looking at my own dreams and those of others I've seen, helpful presences make appearances repeatedly. Are they Masters or parts of the psyche constellated by archetypes? I personally think I see qualitative differences between symbols emblematic of the Self and symbols that seem to refer to actual Masterful persons. The latter are sometimes distinguished by an accompanying feeling of familiarity, protection, and love. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:29:05 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: The Way Ahead Message-ID: <338F54B1.70CF@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > Have you seen any e-mail addresses of any of the National Officers? Most of them, and before the web page was even created. > (At least I have not seen anything officially published.) How many times > have anyone seen any National Officers on this (unofficial) list or any > other list or Usenet newsgroup discussing issues relating to Theosophy even > though it costs nothing to subscribe to this or any other list or use Usenet > groups. It does cost. Time. A precious commodity, which can never be regained once spent. > Is there a plan to get every National Officer on e-mail? Is there a > plan to get all key staff at Olcott with individual addresses? It already exists. > Is there a > plan to induce and educate all the lodges and study centers to get on > e-mail? Is there a plan to educate all lodges and study centers on the > advantages of Internet so that everyone can start using their creativity and > use this new medium for propagating Theosophy? Actually, yes. With any luck, it will be ready in time for the annual meeting. > Is there a plan to collect > e-mail address of our members so that communications can be sent quickly and > at almost no cost? Yep. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:04:53 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Way Ahead Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970530230453.0074201c@mail.eden.com> At 06:29 PM 5/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> Have you seen any e-mail addresses of any of the National Officers? > > Most of them, and before the web page was even created. > >> (At least I have not seen anything officially published.) How many times >> have anyone seen any National Officers on this (unofficial) list or any >> other list or Usenet newsgroup discussing issues relating to Theosophy even >> though it costs nothing to subscribe to this or any other list or use Usenet >> groups. > > It does cost. Time. A precious commodity, which can never be regained >once spent. > >> Is there a plan to get every National Officer on e-mail? Is there a >> plan to get all key staff at Olcott with individual addresses? > > It already exists. > >> Is there a >> plan to induce and educate all the lodges and study centers to get on >> e-mail? Is there a plan to educate all lodges and study centers on the >> advantages of Internet so that everyone can start using their creativity and >> use this new medium for propagating Theosophy? > > Actually, yes. With any luck, it will be ready in time for the annual >meeting. > >> Is there a plan to collect >> e-mail address of our members so that communications can be sent quickly and >> at almost no cost? > > Yep. > > Bart Lidofsky > Glad to see very informative response and thanks. It would have been better if one of the National Officers had responded. ..................doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:17:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Weird dreams Message-ID: <970530191717_487398512@emout15.mail.aol.com> Don't look at me. If theosophy intrudes into my dreams it usually involves certain Olcott staff members doing embarrassing things on the roof, which always causes me to wake up laughing. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:41:45 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: arguing with Bart Message-ID: <199705302359.TAA20434@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Chuck and Titus) even UNDERSTAND my point of view. The rest are too busy >with knee-jerk attacks against it. > Bart, I don't think I said anyting against you. I said my lodge had a basket at the door, and occasional fund raisers. I think eac lodge or s.c. has to figure out their own finances to fit their own situation. NY with 2 brownstones needs some income for upkeep already. No question about that. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:10:45 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: In message <199705301511.LAA20848@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >Question for Einar, or anyone who may know: > >When was the Warcup article published? Was anything done in >response to it? It was first published in ~The Theosophical Journal~in the UK, around the Spring of 1995, and Adam gave me permission to upload it onto the net at the time, which I did. I think I sent it to theos-l or theos- buds as e-mail, so there may be a more exact date in the archive somewhere. I cannot find my copy of the ~Journal~ which contained it. My action was probably the *only* serious response to it in the UK, but there was a lot of support from emergent TI members and other theos list readers at the time. ~The Theosophical Journal~ in England behaves as though internet facilities do not exist. When I was still a member, I sent in a number of reports (by fax) of net activity and expressly mentioned theos-l etc. Nothing was published, and I was in fact very badly treated by my own Lodge, being among other things summarily dismissed by Lodge presidential fiat [illegal under the rules] for promoting the Internet and Theosophy International ("A rival organisation"). YUK. SFAIK, Adam Warcup, like myself, is no longer a member of the Adyar- based TS, along with an increasing number of Brits who are pissed off with the attitude taken by those in "command" of the English Section, which had only 1313 members left on the last count in the Spring of 1996. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:17:44 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: arguing with Bart Message-ID: <338F7C38.2196@sprynet.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > >Chuck and Titus) even UNDERSTAND my point of view. The rest are too busy > >with knee-jerk attacks against it. > > > Bart, I don't think I said anyting against you. I said my lodge had a basket > at the door, and occasional fund raisers. I think eac lodge or s.c. has to > figure out their own finances to fit their own situation. NY with 2 > brownstones needs some income for upkeep already. No question about that. I believe my phrasing implying that there were others; I picked out Chuck and Titus as ones who particularly defended me. I certainly did not mean to belittle those who were willing to accept different points of view as valid. I am especially happy that Eldon Tucker, who can write rings around most of us, stated the case I was trying to make far more eloquently than I could have. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:07:19 -0400 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: arguing with Bart Message-ID: <199705310125.VAA18720@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Now that Chou chou has decided to get up from sleeping on my desk in front of my key board, I'm going to try to find what Roberto Assagioli had to say about money. It's the most practical Theosophical statement I've yet read, but I don't remember it too well by heart. What he wrote solidified my opinion, only he says it better. It's "Transpersonal Development" p. 213 ff. I don't have a scanner, so I'll paraphrase. Anyone interested can look up the whole thing for him(her)self. "Spirituality... is not a form of idealism separate from life itself ... (but) is concerned with life's problems from a higher ... point of view .... testing everything on the basis of true values, endeavoring to reach the essence of every fact, neither allowing oneself to stop at external appearances nor be taken in by traditionally accepted views, by the way the world at large looks at things, or by our own inclinations emotions and preconceived ideas."... "The spiritual view of life ... is extremely revolutionary, dynamic, and creative " The 2 most pressing problems assailing mankind today concern love and money. "If we examine ourselves with that courageous openness that is a prerequisite for any authentic spiritual life, we willl recognize that the thought of money strikes a deep, intense chord within us,.... a confusion of obscure emotions .... currents of fear, greed, and attachment ... feelings of guilt, envy, resentment... Keyserling says the orginial fear refers to want ... "fear of not having enough food, of hunger" from this arises a safety instinct, the instict of ownership. The other basic tendency is Original Hunger or Greed, we're always seeking for the infinite, therefore for more. "In our materialistic civiliazation both these tendencies manifest themselves in the frenzy to acquire and keep the largest possible amount of money and material goods... It can often overcome the self preservation instinct. "Many centuries before the Buddha' Indians" "would become sannyasin, living as beggars." "Jesus often used strong words... His most energetic was when he used a whip to chase the money changers whose greed led them to desecrate the temple..." St Francis. Question "Is it necessary to condemn money to live a spiritual life?" and "if yes, is it feasible in this day and age?" Present day Fransciscans use all modern day devices. The old testament states that prosperity indicates God's favor, and poverty his punishment. We've improved material nature, God's gift to us, made plants better, trained & bred animals to both our advantages. "Our first spiritual act ... is to free ourselves from the fascination of money >>>>>.... Let us... with an unclouded vision, and calm indifference reduce it to what it actually is: a mere instrument, a useful device, a practical convention."<<<<< >>>"Material things.... do not... contain any intrisic evil. From a naturalistic point of view they are things; from the religious point of view they are gifts of God. Thus their significance to us depends on our inner attitude to them. and the use we choose to make of them. <<<<< "Understanding this basic fact clarifies a number of spiritual and practical issues... The absence of external possessions does not ... resolve the problem... if a poor man has desire for material goods ... if he is bitter inside... he will still, psychologically be their slave." "A rich man who is morally detached from his posessions ... has solved some of the problem... he must then come to terms with his fellows... Inner liberation must be followed by correct use of one's possessions. If one accepts that everything comes from God ... the man may only consider himself as the trustee of the material goods of which he has "legal" ownership. (I don't like the examples he cites... Ford, Rockefeller ... Edison, ok.) I'll stop here. I think you get the idea. He doesn't really make the conclusion I came to for myself, only skirts around it. I think is money is only good for what it can get you, which is sometimes better health preservation, a good standing in the community, and neither is to be sneezed at. Anyway, I think if you use your money to get yourself the things that really make you happier and more comfortable, that's what money is for. If you have an excess, well, then I agree with Assagioli, it's nice to think of it as a gift of God to be used wisely, but certainly not to be spurned. One doesn't spurn gifts of God. What for? Also, from the point of view of one who had to struggle for a long time without much money, it's very nice to have some. To me, that goes for people as well as for Lodges. I think that if they need money to function properly they should have it. It's not only the root of much evil it's also the root of much good. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:27:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: <338F7E6C.4FFF@eden.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <199705301511.LAA20848@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" > writes > >Question for Einar, or anyone who may know: > > > >When was the Warcup article published? Was anything done in > >response to it? > > It was first published in ~The Theosophical Journal~in the UK, around > the Spring of 1995, and Adam gave me permission to upload it onto the > net at the time, which I did. I think I sent it to theos-l or theos- > buds as e-mail, so there may be a more exact date in the archive > somewhere. I cannot find my copy of the ~Journal~ which contained it. > My action was probably the *only* serious response to it in the UK, but > there was a lot of support from emergent TI members and other theos list > readers at the time. > > ~The Theosophical Journal~ in England behaves as though internet > facilities do not exist. When I was still a member, I sent in a number > of reports (by fax) of net activity and expressly mentioned theos-l etc. > Nothing was published, and I was in fact very badly treated by my own > Lodge, being among other things summarily dismissed by Lodge > presidential fiat [illegal under the rules] for promoting the Internet > and Theosophy International ("A rival organisation"). > > YUK. > > SFAIK, Adam Warcup, like myself, is no longer a member of the Adyar- > based TS, along with an increasing number of Brits who are pissed off > with the attitude taken by those in "command" of the English Section, > which had only 1313 members left on the last count in the Spring of > 1996. > That is very interesting. When did Adam Warcup leave Adyar TS? It does not surprise me that ~The Theosophical Journal~ in England behaves as though internet facilities do not exist. Typical osterich syndrome!!!! During the last two years I have been on the Internet, I have known so much of the information that I did not know over the last almost four decades of my involvement with TS. I can well understand the apprehension about all the information that have been kept in the dark in the past is going to be out. In the past anytime you inquire knowledgeable leadership about any past events, the general response has been "what does it matter to you" -- that is a trick to avoid disclosing information. Internet is still viewed with great concern, IMHO. I recently heard of a very important and useful e-mail address paid for from the coffers of organization's funds but not want it to be known to the other theosophists, apparently being used only by select elite to communicate. Truth is stranger than fiction. Thanks Alan for the post. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:30:45 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: More questions Message-ID: <338F7F45.730A@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> Hello Thanks M.K Ramadoss for answering my questions. Still haven't managed how to see the images here. i still have the question, about what Mabel Collins mentions in her book "light on the path" those places she mentioned, those magical palaces, where spiritual instruction is being made, you can reach them in the dreams? i believe so, i do not know why. are mentioned that are spiritual places in mental planes, but still i believe that you can reach them in the dreams. Also i have some question about the theosophical taughts on sexual relations. i do not know why, maybe i'm wrong , but i believe that ,if the process of the sexual relation is so complex, that involves feelings, i believe that also, besides fluids (or babies) you can transmit to the person your inner feelings, and taughts, not taughts exactly , but your most spiritual being of state, that is, if the person is somewhat , i don't know, serene, loving of peace, if a full involvement is done by the copule, the peaceful person can transmit that quality, or other qualities/defects to the other person involved. Like when they say that you become one with that person, that is, he/she becomes more like you and you become more like her/him, in all of the senses (spiritual, emotional) you become the perfect complement to that person, and also like him/her ...Is this clear? i don't know, maybe i'm wrong ,but ,for me that i really do not know much of Theosophy, it will be interest to know what the authors or here in this list the pepole that know have to tell of the subject. maybe the esotheric significance on the subject is very deep. could somebody here knows more deep on the matter? Doss? Or anyone else? That's all questioning for today (Dreams/Wise masters in dreams/magical palaces-temples of wisdom in dreams/significance occult on sex (?)) bye and thanks Estrella A salute to all and to Doc Bain also.Hi, Doc! I really like your page!! P.S.A warm salute to Einar and a congratulations because of your page (T.S. in Iceland) is very good!! bye From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:30:20 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970531013020.00730168@mail.eden.com> At 08:32 PM 5/30/97 -0400, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >In message <199705301511.LAA20848@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" > writes >>Question for Einar, or anyone who may know: >> >>When was the Warcup article published? Was anything done in >>response to it? > >It was first published in ~The Theosophical Journal~in the UK, around >the Spring of 1995, and Adam gave me permission to upload it onto the >net at the time, which I did. I think I sent it to theos-l or theos- >buds as e-mail, so there may be a more exact date in the archive >somewhere. I cannot find my copy of the ~Journal~ which contained it. >My action was probably the *only* serious response to it in the UK, but >there was a lot of support from emergent TI members and other theos list >readers at the time. I believe it was also published in AT. ...............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:41:13 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: More questions Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970531014113.00732304@mail.eden.com> At 09:30 PM 5/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hello > >Thanks M.K Ramadoss for answering my questions. >Still haven't managed how to see the images here. > >i still have the question, about what Mabel Collins mentions in her book >"light on the path" those places she mentioned, those magical palaces, >where spiritual instruction is being made, you can reach them in the >dreams? i believe so, i do not know why. are mentioned that are >spiritual places in mental planes, but still i believe that you can >reach them in the dreams. >Also i have some question about the theosophical taughts on sexual >relations. i do not know why, maybe i'm wrong , but i believe that ,if >the process of the sexual relation is so complex, that involves >feelings, i believe that also, besides fluids (or babies) you can >transmit to the person your inner feelings, and taughts, not taughts >exactly , but your most spiritual being of state, that is, if the person >is somewhat , i don't know, serene, loving of peace, if a full >involvement is done by the copule, the peaceful person can transmit that >quality, or other qualities/defects to the other person involved. >Like when they say that you become one with that person, that is, he/she >becomes more like you and you become more like her/him, in all of the >senses (spiritual, emotional) you become the perfect complement to that >person, and also like him/her ...Is this clear? > i don't know, maybe i'm wrong ,but ,for me that i really do not know >much of Theosophy, it will be interest to know what the authors or here >in this list the pepole that know have to tell of the subject. maybe the >esotheric significance on the subject is very deep. >could somebody here knows more deep on the matter? Doss? >Or anyone else? >That's all questioning for today (Dreams/Wise masters in dreams/magical >palaces-temples of wisdom in dreams/significance occult on sex (?)) >bye and thanks >Estrella >A salute to all and to Doc Bain also.Hi, Doc! I really like your page!! >P.S.A warm salute to Einar and a congratulations because of your page >(T.S. in Iceland) is very good!! >bye > Hello Estrella: I cannot say anything about dreams and visiting places etc. in dreams from my personal experience. All I can do is speculate. As for sex and spirituality, there are two schools of thought. Firstly sex like hunger and thirst is a perfectly normal human need. This was specifically mentioned in one of the letters to AP Sinnett (Mahatma Letters to AP Sinnett). Secondly, there is the question of sex and its relationship to spiritual "progress" or "enlightenment". On this issue again there are two schools of thought. The post HPB thought is that for anyone to progress spiritually one needs celibacy. It is the same that all religions have spoken of for centuries. The other school is that of Jiddu Krishnamurti who says celibacy is not that important to spiritual growth. This statement coming from Krishnaji is something very radical and difficult to accept by most who have grown up in the traditional environment. It you are interested I can post a fairly good summary of his explanation why. Hope this helps. .........doss (also known as M K Ramadoss) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:43:45 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Bart needs a spanking...(was arguing with Bart) Message-ID: <338F662D.1697434B@earthlink.net> A sense of humor is the best way I've found to flow with those who are insincere in their search for truth. Love & Peace, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:47:08 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Bart needs a spanking...(was arguing with Bart) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970531014708.006e4fcc@mail.eden.com> At 09:45 PM 5/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >A sense of humor is the best way I've found to flow with those who are >insincere in their search for truth. > >Love & Peace, >P > Hello, it is going to be very difficult to know who is and who is not sincere in their search for truth. Just my opinion. ........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:47:09 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Re: The Way Ahead Message-ID: <338F66F9.4F6525F9@earthlink.net> ++ Of course, a *really* new group, that doesn't call itself ++ Theosophical, but incorporates HPB among others as a precursor, ++ is almost bound to develop sooner or later. +    Yes, today there are many groups and the Mahatmas would work with + all those who are sincere in their approach to truth. In Joy, P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:50:27 -0700 From: "Romero Cortez D.Ma" Subject: Aliens!! Message-ID: <338F83E3.7C47@bahia.ens.uabc.mx> > From: "K. Paul Johnson" He wrote: > Future such groups are > likely to make M. and K.H. into spacemen, permit me a big laugh!!!! hahahahahahaha :-D because that has been done already! (i have seen those books) Estrella From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:53:42 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: More questions Message-ID: <19970530.185344.9095.5.trr@juno.com> On Fri, 30 May 1997 21:30:08 -0400 (EDT) "Romero Cortez D.Ma" writes: >Also i have some question about the theosophical taughts on sexual >relations. In "The Mahatma Letters" is the following: "Occult Science does not allow a shadow of self-indulgence, and is incompatible with the ordinary course of married life." I have always enjoyed one of HPB's statements about marriage, also, I believe from "The Key to Theosophy," that marriage is like a lottery with "so many blanks and so few prizes." But she seemed to believe that sex had little direct effect on one's spiritual growth, saying that if one wanted to participate in that kind of a game with the odds so heavily against one, it was no spiritual loss. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:22:12 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Bart needs a spanking...(was arguing with Bart) Message-ID: <338F6F2A.4FE83334@earthlink.net> + Hello, it is going to be very difficult to know who is and who is + not + sincere in their search for truth. Just my opinion. Curios statement Doss...any good businessman can tell at a handshake whether a person is geniune or not...for esoteric matters good humor, good cheer and impersonality relating to positions on issues are good indicators...but it's really an assessment of the heart... P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:23:56 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Bart needs a spanking...(was arguing with Bart) Message-ID: <338F8BBC.42BE@sprynet.com> apriorip@earthlink.net wrote: > > A sense of humor is the best way I've found to flow with those who are > insincere in their search for truth. > > Love & Peace, > P And what is your opinion of the 2nd and 3rd Object? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:48:21 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Bart needs a spanking...(was arguing with Bart) Message-ID: <338F9175.2A3A@sprynet.com> apriorip@earthlink.net wrote: > > + Hello, it is going to be very difficult to know who is and who is > + not > + sincere in their search for truth. Just my opinion. > > Curios statement Doss...any good businessman can tell at a handshake > whether a person is geniune or not...for esoteric matters good humor, > good cheer and impersonality relating to positions on issues are good > indicators...but it's really an assessment of the heart... I am sorry. I did not realize that I was in the presence of an adept, who can tell someone's heart just by shaking their hands. I was unaware that all there was to spiritual development is a lack of caring. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:18:20 -0700 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: Re: Is TS a Money Making Concern? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530201820.006b3fc4@90.0.0.1> Doss: >> With all of the brouhaha going on here this past week, shouldn't the >> subject line read: Is Making Money A TS Concern? ;-D >> >> Lynn >Good question. Answer seems to be a very simple No. No means No! I'm not sure you should make such a strong statement regarding money making. I'd think that theosophical groups could use more money. There are things that we could do for the general public if we had the funds. How about translating the literature into other languages and making it available at little or no cost in third-world countries? Or doing a thorough job of computerizing and indexing the literature? Or building and operating spiritual camps and retreat centers? Or revising public educational materials to include more theosophical principles, and making it available to the educational system? And free public classes on Theosophy, whenever possible ... How do we raise money for charitable purposes? Not by selling phoney Initiations for big $$$, nor putting a price tag on genuine spiritual instruction. Lacking money the easy way -- from highly rich benefactors -- we must resort to fund raising activities. Doing fund raising for noble causes does not cheapen our spiritual efforts. I'd consider side offerings like classes on astrology as good vehicles for fund raising -- no one's going to burn in hell for charging for something like that. But were I to approach someone and ask for thousands of dollars to learn the secrets of the spirit world, I'd be on quite thin ice. Odds are that I'd be making awful karma for myself. Even here, I won't make a blanket rule, but leave things up to someone's best judgement. I won't assume, for instance, that a professional astrologer that charges for reading horoscopes, doing that for a living, is prostituting the spiritual. >TS concern to make Theosophy reach masses and hope it will change the >hearts and minds of a few. A few can change the world. One has just see >what a few like Buddha, Hitler, Napoleon could achieve either lot of >good or evil. Monks can wander the streets with their begging bowls, knowing they'll be fed. There are householders with food to spare. Some people have to gather the food, raise the funds, see to the material side of life, so that others can devote their energies to a spiritual life. The T.S. is not just for saints, that can like on holiness and good karma, but rather shares in the hunger and limitations of worldly existence. While we certainly should never turn away someone seeking spiritual instruction because they are short a few dollars, they should not, on the other hand, feel slighted if they cannot attend all the T.S. fund raisers for free. In an ideal world where there is no shortage of money, everything would be free to everyone. Short of that, we all try to the best we can, sharing wherever possible, trying to act with the highest motives. -- Eldon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:35:29 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Bart needs a spanking...(was arguing with Bart) Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970531033529.0073320c@mail.eden.com> At 10:24 PM 5/30/97 -0400, apriorip@earthlink.net wrote: >+ Hello, it is going to be very difficult to know who is and who is >+ not >+ sincere in their search for truth. Just my opinion. > >Curios statement Doss...any good businessman can tell at a handshake >whether a person is geniune or not...for esoteric matters good humor, >good cheer and impersonality relating to positions on issues are good >indicators...but it's really an assessment of the heart... > >P I agree that it is an assessment of the heart. Again sense of humor is always good no matter what the situation is. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:41:39 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Is TS a Money Making Concern? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970531034139.0072afbc@mail.eden.com> At 11:16 PM 5/30/97 -0400, Eldon B. Tucker wrote: >Doss: > >>> With all of the brouhaha going on here this past week, shouldn't the >>> subject line read: Is Making Money A TS Concern? ;-D >>> >>> Lynn > >>Good question. Answer seems to be a very simple No. No means No! > >I'm not sure you should make such a strong statement regarding money >making. I'd think that theosophical groups could use more money. There >are things that we could do for the general public if we had the funds. > >How about translating the literature into other languages and making >it available at little or no cost in third-world countries? Or doing >a thorough job of computerizing and indexing the literature? Or building >and operating spiritual camps and retreat centers? Or revising public >educational materials to include more theosophical principles, and >making it available to the educational system? And free public classes >on Theosophy, whenever possible ... > >How do we raise money for charitable purposes? Not by selling phoney >Initiations for big $$$, nor putting a price tag on genuine spiritual >instruction. Lacking money the easy way -- from highly rich benefactors -- >we must resort to fund raising activities. Doing fund raising for noble >causes does not cheapen our spiritual efforts. I'd consider side offerings >like classes on astrology as good vehicles for fund raising -- no one's >going to burn in hell for charging for something like that. But were I >to approach someone and ask for thousands of dollars to learn the secrets >of the spirit world, I'd be on quite thin ice. Odds are that I'd be making >awful karma for myself. Even here, I won't make a blanket rule, but leave >things up to someone's best judgement. I won't assume, for instance, that >a professional astrologer that charges for reading horoscopes, doing that >for a living, is prostituting the spiritual. > >>TS concern to make Theosophy reach masses and hope it will change the >>hearts and minds of a few. A few can change the world. One has just see >>what a few like Buddha, Hitler, Napoleon could achieve either lot of >>good or evil. > >Monks can wander the streets with their begging bowls, knowing they'll >be fed. There are householders with food to spare. Some people have to >gather the food, raise the funds, see to the material side of life, so >that others can devote their energies to a spiritual life. The T.S. is >not just for saints, that can like on holiness and good karma, but >rather shares in the hunger and limitations of worldly existence. While >we certainly should never turn away someone seeking spiritual instruction >because they are short a few dollars, they should not, on the other hand, >feel slighted if they cannot attend all the T.S. fund raisers for free. >In an ideal world where there is no shortage of money, everything would >be free to everyone. Short of that, we all try to the best we can, sharing >wherever possible, trying to act with the highest motives. > >-- Eldon > Hi, Eldon: I completely agree with you that any funds available can be used to help propogate Theosophy in the various ways you have mentioned and more. When Lynn asked Is Making Money A TS Concern, I was thinking of the primary concern is to further the cause of Theosophy. Fund raising and other attempts to raise funds is ok. Last week some of us collected some funds to support a worthwhile theosophical project/work. Just thought I should clarify. ..............doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:21:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The Way Ahead is probably dead Message-ID: <970531002125_1523575389@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-30 23:51:24 EDT, you write: >SFAIK, Adam Warcup, like myself, is no longer a member of the Adyar- >based TS, along with an increasing number of Brits who are pissed off >with the attitude taken by those in "command" of the English Section, >which had only 1313 members left on the last count in the Spring of >1996. Yikes!!!!! The TS in England isn't leaking, it's hemoraging! When did Adam leave? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:07:32 GMT From: "Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B." Subject: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <199705310907.JAA01726@rvik.ismennt.is> Doss wrote: The other school is that of Jiddu Krishnamurti who says celibacy is not that important to spiritual growth. This statement coming from Krishnaji is something very radical and difficult to accept by most who have grown up in the traditional environment. It you are interested I can post a fairly good summary of his explanation why. Einar here: When once asked about sex and spiritual practices, J.K. answered, (as far as I remember): 'Have sex, or don't have sex, it doesn't matter - just don't make a problem out of it.' This is in line with his teaching that when you impose an 'unnatural' suppression upon the psyche as a spiritual means, you will only inflict an inner conflict, and therfore make a psychological havoc out of the whole thing. This does not implicate though, that one should 'Indulge in some kind of spiritual sex', as some would have it. As we proceed naturally in our spiritual search, ALL needs will come to an end, naturally and permanently. To impose unnatural control or suppression on the process will simply not work. Neither will an unnatural indulgence. Transcendance is sort of perpendicular direction, away from both 'do it' and 'don't do it'. One day the 'needs' arenīt there, because they have been repalced by something more profound. With LOVE to you all. Einar from Iceland. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Let's change the world to the better, by each of us changing ourselves, TOGETHER. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 03:42:21 PST From: trr@juno.com (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <19970531.034222.12271.2.trr@juno.com> >Einar here: > >When once asked about sex and spiritual practices, J.K. answered, (as >far as I remember): 'Have sex, or don't have sex, it doesn't matter - just >don't make a problem out of it.' > >This is in line with his teaching that when you impose an 'unnatural' >suppression upon the psyche as a spiritual means, you will only >inflict an inner conflict, and therfore make a psychological havoc out of >the whole thing. This does not implicate though, that one should >'Indulge in some kind of spiritual sex', as some would have it. > >As we proceed naturally in our spiritual search, ALL needs will come >to an end, naturally and permanently. To impose unnatural control or >suppression on the process will simply not work. Neither will an >unnatural indulgence. Transcendance is sort of perpendicular direction, >away from both 'do it' and 'don't do it'. One day the 'needs' arenīt there, >because they have been repalced by something more profound. More than 20 years ago, I went many times to a seminar given by a man who worked with youth, and, in commenting on St. Augustine's "love God, and do as you please," which echoes Krishnamurti, he said that that was "devastating" advice to them, as it would be too likely interpreted as a license for self-indulgence. Self-indulgence _is_ what is natural for those who haven't reached a certain stage of maturity. There may be more danger in the psychobabble that discourages suppression of desires than there is in unfulfilled needs. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:27:49 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970531122749.007328f0@mail.eden.com> At 05:06 AM 5/31/97 -0400, Einar Adalsteinsson & A.S.B. wrote: >Doss wrote: >The other school is that of Jiddu Krishnamurti who says celibacy is not that >important to spiritual growth. This statement coming from Krishnaji is >something very radical and difficult to accept by most who have grown up in >the traditional environment. It you are interested I can post a fairly good >summary of his explanation why. > >Einar here: > >When once asked about sex and spiritual practices, J.K. answered, (as far as >I remember): >'Have sex, or don't have sex, it doesn't matter - just don't make a problem >out of it.' > >This is in line with his teaching that when you impose an 'unnatural' >suppression upon the psyche as a spiritual means, you will only inflict an >inner conflict, and therfore make a psychological havoc out of the whole thing. >This does not implicate though, that one should 'Indulge in some kind of >spiritual sex', as some would have it. > >As we proceed naturally in our spiritual search, ALL needs will come to an >end, naturally and permanently. To impose unnatural control or suppression >on the process will simply not work. Neither will an unnatural indulgence. >Transcendance is sort of perpendicular direction, away from both 'do it' >and 'don't do it'. One day the 'needs' arenīt there, because they have been >repalced by something more profound. > >With LOVE to you all. > >Einar from Iceland. >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ >Let's change the world to the better, >by each of us changing ourselves, >TOGETHER. >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > You have explained the issue very comprehensively. As an analogy, there was this statement -- "once you understand the real value of money, the allurment and attraction to money is gone". Thanks. ..........doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:31:44 -0500 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970531123144.007358a4@mail.eden.com> At 06:44 AM 5/31/97 -0400, Tom Robertson wrote: >>Einar here: >> >>When once asked about sex and spiritual practices, J.K. answered, (as >>far as I remember): 'Have sex, or don't have sex, it doesn't matter - >just >don't make a problem out of it.' >> >>This is in line with his teaching that when you impose an 'unnatural' >>suppression upon the psyche as a spiritual means, you will only >>inflict an inner conflict, and therfore make a psychological havoc out of >the whole thing. This does not implicate though, that one should >>'Indulge in some kind of spiritual sex', as some would have it. >> >>As we proceed naturally in our spiritual search, ALL needs will come >>to an end, naturally and permanently. To impose unnatural control or >>suppression on the process will simply not work. Neither will an >>unnatural indulgence. Transcendance is sort of perpendicular direction, >away from both 'do it' and 'don't do it'. One day the 'needs' arenīt >there, >because they have been repalced by something more profound. > >More than 20 years ago, I went many times to a seminar given by a man who >worked with youth, and, in commenting on St. Augustine's "love God, and >do as you please," which echoes Krishnamurti, he said that that was "devastating" advice to them, as it would be too likely interpreted as a >license for self-indulgence. Self-indulgence _is_ what is natural for >those who haven't reached a certain stage of maturity. There may be >more danger in the psychobabble that discourages suppression of desires >than there is in unfulfilled needs. > I agree. If only people start *thinking* about these issues without mindlessly adopting one course of action or the other, I am sure there comes a real understanding and when that happens all the issues are put in proper place with proper perspective. Thanks again. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:21:35 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <339025DF.863@sprynet.com> Tom Robertson wrote: > > More than 20 years ago, I went many times to a seminar given by a man who > worked with youth, and, in commenting on St. Augustine's "love God, and > do as you please," which echoes Krishnamurti, he said that that was > "devastating" advice to them, as it would be too likely interpreted as a > license for self-indulgence. Self-indulgence _is_ what is natural for > those who haven't reached a certain stage of maturity. There may be > more danger in the psychobabble that discourages suppression of desires > than there is in unfulfilled needs. A certain degree of maturity is required to understand what St. Augustine meant. There is only a problem if you look at the statement from a dualist point of view. If you look at it from a monist point of view, it is extrememly sensible. Remember what the Mahatmas say about INTENT. The part of the phrase, "love God" is not just a platitude, it is an absolutely necessary part of the formula. If you truly love God, then your intent will always be proper, and therefore you can do what you please. It is only when one separates one's heart from one's actions that this fails to work. Aleister Crowley was similarly misunderstood when he came up with the more Theosophical formula, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." On reading his works, it is clear that what he calls "will" or "Thelema" is what Theosophists call "Atma". When one approaches the state of the Mahatmas, then karma ceases to be an abstract concept, and becomes concrete. Under such conditions, it would be ridiculous to perform any action or inaction that comes back to you (the Mahatmas say "impossible", but I believe that was in the figurative sense; for example, if one was blind and deaf, and had no guidance, then every time one crossed the street, one would be in danger of being hit by a motor vehicle. Being able to see and hear, we can, as long as we are being even minimally mindful, avoid such collisions. It is not physically impossible for us to get into an accident if the vehicles are being controlled lawfully, but it is extremely unlikely). Going back to the subject of the thread, the desire for sex in humans is high. But if the sex is offered in the middle of a busy highway, I daresay any of us would overcome the urge. Since sex so easily leads to the creation of personal karma, one could see that for someone for whom karma is a physical aspect of reality, it would be generally avoided. But that is not always necessarily the case. Finally, we must remember that for even the highest adepts, they must maintain some level of human weakness to be able to generate enough personal karma to stay on this plane. And what WAS in Moria's pipe? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:24:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Iceland TS Webpage Message-ID: <970531102452_337180875@emout09.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-30 07:08:57 EDT, Doss wrote: > > I just visited the TS Iceland Webpage and Einar has done a wonderful job > . > > One thing that is going to make visiting the url interesting is the > abundance of links to various spiritual organizations and other sources. > If all you have is just some addresses and programs, there would be no > incentive for visitors to visit the site. > > I suggest everyone in theos-l should visit the site and see for > themselves. Yiiikes!!! Could someone please repost that URL or, better yet, send it to me offlist? I have sixty million pieces of paper lying around here with URLs on them (having lost the notebook devoted just to URLs somewhere in this mess in my office) and don't have Einar's post any longer. Thanks in advance. Lynn From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:42:02 -0500 From: apriorip@earthlink.net Subject: The Year 2000 (software...) Message-ID: <33901C86.F35A050A@earthlink.net> from an e-list discussion about the year 2000 software issue (reminds me of the Tibetan's prediction about the removal of money [if it were to become equated with safety and security]): P ---      For example, of the 30 million lines of code that must be debugged on the Social Security mainframe, only 6 million have been rewritten so far, since they started in 1991 - and any screwed-up line can throw everything else off. A little math will show that there is simply no way that SS will be 2000 compliant in time. And the IRS, rather than fixing its own system (which is more full of bugs than a fire ant mound), just plans to tap into Social Security's machines. To boot (bad pun), any system that has been corrected must be run with a parallel system to determine if it's going to work.      This is no joke. A lot of people are laughing about their mortgages being paid ahead by 99 years, but it's not that simple.... their financial house of cards (which is all it is, when of the $100 trillion changing hands annually worldwide, only $3 TRILLION is represented by the delivery or production of actual goods and services - ...All systems operating on mainframe computers will go awry, including banking, defense, insurance, transportation, Social Security etc, etc. This is so serious that the Pentagon has absolutely no clue what to do. A high-ranking official stated that there is no "silver bullet" to deal with this impending disaster, no technological fix that can be inititiated in time. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:50:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <970531115033_2020166778@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-31 06:46:35 EDT, you write: > it would be too likely interpreted as a >license for self-indulgence. So? I've practiced self-indulgence without a license for many years. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:54:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <970531115439_-1665140352@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-31 09:23:43 EDT, you write: >. But if the sex is offered in the middle of a busy highway, I >daresay any of us would overcome the urge. Don't be so sure of that. You would be amazed at some of the things people manage while they are driving. Some of them even amaze me! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:17:12 -0500 From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: The Year 2000 (con't) Message-ID: <339032E6.3E99@earthlink.net> <>      I expect that over the next two years as people think about what this means there will be an increasing attempt to withdraw cash or purchase hard assets, but as you say there is not 100 trillion in assets in existence (talk about rapid price increases!)...moreover even if people choose cash there is only aI believe bout 300 billion in print...here comes barter and resource based economics... P From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:25:08 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Celibacy v.s. indulgence Message-ID: <339050E4.4F5B@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-05-31 09:23:43 EDT, you write: > > >. But if the sex is offered in the middle of a busy highway, I > >daresay any of us would overcome the urge. > > Don't be so sure of that. You would be amazed at some of the things people > manage while they are driving. Some of them even amaze me! Oops, I can see how you misunderstood. The hypothetical situation assumed that the sex would take place without a vehicle; in other words, two (or more) bodies lying down in the middle of a busy highway. Bart Lidofsky