From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:01:02 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Food Fight/Body Wisdom Message-ID: <199702280501.VAA24393@proxy3.ba.best.com> JRC: > I know this sounds odd ... but the proof's in the pudding and I >get ill about once a decade, and even then the body rights itself almost >immediately. In fact, counterintuitively enough, I've talked a few friends >who had weight problems into trying this and in every case it worked - at >first it felt weird, almost naughty, to say the body could eat *anything*, >and as much as, it wanted (what the hell kinda diet is *that* one of them >asked laughing (-:) ... but the real trick is eating what the *body* >wants, not what the emotions are shoveling for their own purposes, or what >the mind is imposing to suit its own ideas -- and its suprising how >quickly the body's voice differentiates itself from all other promptings >when its even given half a chance. > I even wonder whether the diet the mind resonates with may, in >each person's case, simply be that which is best tuned to that unheard >bodywisdom. Perhaps (for instance) Doss has an organism that, for its >physiology and life's purpose, would rarely if ever touch meat, while if >Ann vehemently refused meat she might on a number of occaisions be going >*against* her body's voice. > Oh well, I've babbled enough. > Good eatin' all, -JRC Bodywisdom and body habits. What I have a craving for is usually a combination of my yearning for a particular, usually ethnic, food and what my body needs. When I lived in an area that does not have a variety of ethnic food, particularly Vietnamese, I would have a strong craving for it constantly. Now that I live in the diversified San Francisco area and can go for any food I like, my cravings have stopped. And of course, during the time of the menstrual cycle, I hunt for chocolate (high in magnesium) and men's blood :o). When I was in college and have to be careful of my food budget, anchovies sprinkled with Tabasco sauce between two slices of toast would satisfy me. That is to supplement some of the funkier Vietnamese stuff that I also like to eat. You wouldn't want me to list the more exotic stuff, whooo stinky! Now, I don't care for the more exotic Vietnamese stuff. It doesn't have to stink and it doesn't have to be rare. I also notice that when it is colder, I want to stay warm and eat a lot. There's a satisfying feeling wrapped up in warm clothing and with a full belly. Mmmmmm I wonder what all of our natural weights would be if we didn't have society's unrealistic expectations of weight. Somehow, we all subconsciously wish to look like the ideal beautiful people. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:31:53 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 932 RUKMINI Message-ID: <970228003152_2061865434@emout06.mail.aol.com> Rukmini went to her death convinced that she was an arhat. Whatever her other accomplishments, that was the belief of a sane person. We usually term such things as "delusions of grandeur," but I suppose we should be grateful she didn't run around in a cocked hat and think she was Napoleon. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:35:22 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 932 RUKMINI (whoops) Message-ID: <970228003521_1947357149@emout11.mail.aol.com> There should have been a question mark after "sane person". Rukmini suffered from being around people who believed too much and thought too little, but she should have had sense enough to at one point or another guess that taffy was being pulled. I find anyone who thinks they are an arhat very difficult to take seriously. But then I take very little seriously. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:11:36 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970228061136.006eea74@mail.eden.com> At 11:57 PM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >Doss wrote: > >>>BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients in >>>businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, >>>prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my >>>business. >>> >>>mkr > > >I, like Ann and Thoa, find myself disturbed by your decision to deny >business services to particular people. I do not see these as business >decisions on your part, but as moral ones - since your business may actually >be more profitable if you did take on such clients. I personally feel that >businesses should not discriminate - we are already privy of how damaging >that can be. As T/theosophists, we should know, perhaps better than others, >how we must avoid falling into the public practice of sifting out those >people we feel are worthy of our help/service - we have enough trouble >dealing with it in our private lives. > >Specifically, I am curious, Doss, on why you don't offer your services to >law enforcement. I wonder what moral objections one could have there. >Would you not call the police if you found yourself a victim of a crime? >Also, members of the military seem deserving of tax service - why do you >choose not to offer services to them? > >As far as I'm concerned, prostitutes need all the help they can get. >Prostitution should be legalized - BUT, pardon me, that's another argument >altogether. > > >Kym > May be a very simple answer is that I specialize in areas other than -- the ones listed. My clients are a small group of individuals who need year round business and tax consulting service. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 19:20:26 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 934 Message-ID: <199702280820.TAA14969@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> Alan >> as there will be no veggieburgers or >>smokes in the next world, IMO, Chuck >I don't know about that. Father's ghost never appears without a cigar. In >fact, one time when one of my granparents had a bad car accident and was in >the hospital I came home to find the back room of the house filled with cigar >smoke and no one in the house was smoking. The house I was brought up in was "haunted" by a pipe smoker. We could always tell when he was around by the smell (but not appearance) of fresh pipe smoke. My rational father even explored every possibility for tobacco hidden somewhere but to no avail. I wonder why so many ghosts smoke? ;-) Oh dear, I forgot that good theosophists aren't supposed to be psychic as well. Someone forgot to tell the ghosts (which we all know don't exist cos the (theosophical) masters said so). Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 04:30:58 -0500 (EST) From: "John E. Mead" Subject: Stil-Light Liquidation Message-ID: <199702280930.EAA06793@pop1.vnet.net> the Board of the Stil-Light Theosophical retreat in NC is meeting this weekend to vote on whether or not to liquidate the facility due to lack of use. if you have any comments or input regarding this decision please submit them to: jem@vnet.net theos-l@netcom.com carolward@aol.com algeo@ix.netcom.com thanks - john e. mead p.s. it has occured to me that the southeast members may want to discuss this with some of the board members. board members are: (with e-mail access) john e. mead john algeo carol ward miles standish ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Owner: Theos-L etc.; http://users.vnet.net/jem/theos-l.html Member: TSA; Theosophy International (TI) "Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers. Mathematics is impossible without consciousness" ----------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 06:11:40 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Stil-Light Liquidation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970228121140.006f3b64@mail.eden.com> At 04:36 AM 2/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >the Board of the Stil-Light Theosophical retreat in NC is meeting this >weekend to vote on whether or not to liquidate the facility due >to lack of use. > >if you have any comments or input regarding this decision please submit them to: > >jem@vnet.net >theos-l@netcom.com >carolward@aol.com >algeo@ix.netcom.com > >thanks - john e. mead > >p.s. it has occured to me that the southeast members may want >to discuss this with some of the board members. > >board members are: (with e-mail access) >john e. mead >john algeo >carol ward >miles standish > >----------------------------------------------------------- >John E. Mead jem@vnet.net >Owner: Theos-L etc.; http://users.vnet.net/jem/theos-l.html >Member: TSA; Theosophy International (TI) >"Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers. >Mathematics is impossible without consciousness" >----------------------------------------------------------- Many may not know the size of the facility and what the operations were in past and in the recent days. Also only those closely involved with the facility are aware of the practical issues concerned with why the facility is lacking use. Usually it is very easy to liquidate and close down anything. Starting and build up is very very difficult. I hope the liquidation, if the board decides, is not the beginning of a string of liquidation of TS properties/facilities which were set up due to the enormous labor and sacrifices of a large number of devoted members in the past. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:36:17 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 934 Message-ID: <970228143616_1017300861@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-28 03:25:11 EST, you write: > >Oh dear, I forgot that good theosophists aren't supposed to be psychic as >well. Someone forgot to tell the ghosts (which we all know don't exist cos >the (theosophical) masters said so). > >Christine Fortunately, I have never claimed to be a "good" anything, so I don't have to worry about that. And my father wouldn't give diddly-sqaut about what the master said. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:38:46 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 926 Message-ID: In message <970227021302_-937881840@emout01.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-02-26 21:22:49 EST, you write: > >> as there will be no veggieburgers or >>smokes in the next world, IMO, >> >>Alan > >I don't know about that. Father's ghost never appears without a cigar. In >fact, one time when one of my granparents had a bad car accident and was in >the hospital I came home to find the back room of the house filled with cigar >smoke and no one in the house was smoking. > >Chuck the Heretic Ghosts appear in this world, not the next. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:25:00 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 926 Message-ID: <970301002459_-1507296920@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-28 19:32:05 EST, you write: >Ghosts appear in this world, not the next. > >Alan Is that knowledge from personal experience or an expression of hope? :) Chuck the Haunted Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 00:59:48 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: An interesting discovery Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970301065948.00679854@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting newsreport I saw in today's news paper. In this connection, I also quote from ML to APS: Letter 23B 3rd rev edn 1962 TPH, Adyar. ====================== "The group of islands off the Siberian coast discovered by Nordenskjold of the "Vega" was found strewn with fossils of horses, sheep, oxen, etc., among gigantic bones of elephants, mammoths, rhinoceroses, and other monsters belonging to periods when man -- says your science -- had not yet made his appearance on earth. How come horses and sheep to be found in company with the huge "ante-diluvians"? The horse, we are taught in schools -- is quite a modern invention of nature, and no man ever saw its pedactyl ancestor. The group of the Siberian islands may give lie to the comfortable theory. The region now locked in the fetters of eternal winter uninhabited by man -- that most fragile of animals, -- will be very soon proved to have had not only a tropical climate -- something your science knows and does not dispute ..." ================================ Also I recall reading about the shifting of continents /poles. MKR ======================================================= Artifacts May Push Back Human Residency in Siberia by 300,000 Years By Curt Suplee Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, February 28 1997; Page A08 The Washington Post Stone Age people somehow managed to live in the forbidding environs of Siberia as early as 300,000 years ago -- hundreds of thousands of years before experts had thought possible -- according to a new analysis of geological evidence. Even now, in a relatively warm period of Earth's recent climate history, the region 75 miles south of Yakutsk, where signs of archaic habitation have been found, gets as cold as minus 70 degrees Fahrenheit. So scientists have long assumed that human settlement was not possible there until about 40,000 years ago, coincident with the evolutionary advent of anatomically modern humans who had the capacity to develop sophisticated shelters, make suitable clothing and control fire. That determination has been reinforced by the fact that, for five decades, the earliest convincingly dated sites of human occupation in upper Siberia have been shown to be no older than 35,000 years. But three researchers report in today's issue of the journal Science that an ancient quarry site called Diring Yuriakh, apparently used by people to make simple stone tools, is at least 260,000 years old. "It kind of breaks our mind-set," said coauthor Michael R. Waters, a Texas A&M geoarchaeologist, by indicating "that people were able to push into this rigorous environment and make a living there." Diring -- located on the Lena River at the same latitude as central Alaska -- has been something of an enigma since it was discovered in 1982 by Russian archaeologist Yuri Mochanov. Eventually, thousands of artifacts were removed from the excavation, and Mochanov decided the site was at least 2 million years old. That claim, which would put Siberia on a chronological par with east Africa for early evidence of human-like habitation, met with profound skepticism from most quarters. Estimates of the tools' true age, the authors write, varied widely: from Mochanov's maximum of 3.2 million years to as little as 15,000 years. Waters, along with geologists Steven L. Forman and James M. Pierson of the University of Illinois, traveled to Siberia to investigate the site. The once-open quarry had been covered by blowing sand and other sedimentary material; and because there was no other material to use for dating, the scientists were obliged to employ a generally reliable method called thermoluminescence (TL). The technique relies on the fact that buried mineral crystals (of the sort common in certain rock types and the wind-blown sand at Diring Yuriakh) are gradually exposed to low-level radiation, whether from radioactive material in the rock or in the surrounding earth. The energy from that radiation dislodges electrons that get trapped in defects within the crystal. When the material is later heated in the lab, those trapped electrons are released, shedding their energy as light: The more light emitted, the longer the sample has been buried and subjected to radiation. Exposure to sunlight, however, generally removes all the trapped electrons in a sample, "resetting" its internal clock to zero. So the sand that blew into the Diring quarry would have had no trapped electrons at the time it was first deposited; trapping would have begun only when that geological layer was buried. TL studies of specimens from the site, the Texas-Illinois team concluded, indicated the sand around the stone tools was 250,000 to 350,000 years old. If the tools are actually tools (and some scientists believe the Diring stones may have cracked naturally) and are genuinely 300,000 years old (which some researchers would prefer to see confirmed using another dating method), it still does not necessarily mean archaic humans were able to live there continuously. "What happened," said Rick Potts, director of the Human Origins program at the Smithsonian Institution, "when the weather got bad that year or the following year? We just don't know." @CAPTION: This cutting tool apparently used in Stone Age was found at Diring Yuriakh, an ancient quarry site on Lena River. © Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 12:28:10 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <33271e5b.34333178@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Ann E. Bermingham wrote: >> From: M K Ramadoss >> BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients >>in >> businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, >> prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my >> business. >Evidently you don't feel these people are worthy enough to receive your >consultation and advice. I consider this to be a form of discrimination >based on your own and only your own moral code. Anyone should be free to do business with whomever they wish. As happened in professional baseball, the market will naturally punish those who make bad business decisions because of discrimination. If I have a restaurant and if I don't serve black people, I will only be costing myself business. No other motivation is necessary. Private businesses should be legally free to discriminate in any way they want. I was neither racist nor sexist in hiring in my business, but I swore that the day the government came and told me I didn't have enough blacks, or women, or gays, or etc., working for me, I would immediately go out of business. No one has the right to tell others with whom they must do business. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:00:48 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: THEOS-L digest 932 Message-ID: <+nKpaDAwG3FzEwpx@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970228003521_1947357149@emout11.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >I take very little seriously. .. as we have all noticed. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:18:48 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: THEOS-L digest 932 Message-ID: In message <970228003152_2061865434@emout06.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >We usually term such things as "delusions of grandeur," but I suppose we >should be grateful she didn't run around in a cocked hat and think she was >Napoleon. .. oh dear we are back to your private photo collection again ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 21:32:10 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Pedro R.M. Oliveira Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970302033210.00bc84fc@mail.eden.com> Hi There was a Pedro R.M. Oliveira who was the International Secretary at Adyar for some time. Does anyone know which S. American country he is from? A friend asked me and I trying to get the info. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:52:32 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 932 Message-ID: <970301225231_379870952@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-01 21:41:25 EST, you write: >.. oh dear we are back to your private photo collection again ... > >Alan No, Rukmini was not Napoleon. I knew Napoleon and he was a lousy dancer, at least that's what Josephine always said. And how they got me to pose in that silly hat with my hand in my shirt is beyond me. I must have been very drunk. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:53:35 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Pedro R.M. Oliveira Message-ID: <970301225333_-803487255@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-01 22:37:35 EST, you write: > >There was a Pedro R.M. Oliveira who was the International Secretary at Adyar >for some time. Does anyone know which S. American country he is from? A >friend asked me and I trying to get the info. > > I think it was Brazil. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 01:04:17 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Pedro R.M. Oliveira Message-ID: <33191861.5B93@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > There was a Pedro R.M. Oliveira who was the International Secretary at Adyar > for some time. Does anyone know which S. American country he is from? A > friend asked me and I trying to get the info. Brazil. I've met him; he is an extremely nice and highly knowledgeable person. Interestingly enough, from his lecture style, you would assume that he was a pedant, but in conversation, he is the opposite. I have been told that this is due to a style of lecturing popular in India, and he would be aghast if he thought that people took his lectures as him trying to preach the Law. Apparently (from sources here and otherwise), his wife could not take living in Adyar, and she essentially told him, I'm going back to Brazil. Come or not, but if you don't come now, don't bother coming later. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 07:20:23 GMT From: dewberry@poboxes.com (Bee Brown) Subject: Re: Pedro R.M. Oliveira Message-ID: <331c291d.305754829@mail> On Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:55:13 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >Things are changing at NetForward! >http://www.netforward.com/changes.shtml >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >In a message dated 97-03-01 22:37:35 EST, you write: > >> >>There was a Pedro R.M. Oliveira who was the International Secretary at Adyar >>for some time. Does anyone know which S. American country he is from? A >>friend asked me and I trying to get the info. >> >> > >I think it was Brazil. > >Chuck the Heretic That is correct. He was over here a couple of years ago and I had the privilige of meeting him. I understand he had family business that he had to return to Brazil for and Conrad Jaimeson from NZ stepped in. > Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. Life is not a problem to be solved; it is a mystery to be lived. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 02:25:39 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Pedro R.M. Oliveira Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970302082539.00bb657c@mail.eden.com> At 01:06 AM 3/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: > >> There was a Pedro R.M. Oliveira who was the International Secretary at Adyar >> for some time. Does anyone know which S. American country he is from? A >> friend asked me and I trying to get the info. > > Brazil. > > I've met him; he is an extremely nice and highly knowledgeable person. >Interestingly enough, from his lecture style, you would assume that he >was a pedant, but in conversation, he is the opposite. I have been told >that this is due to a style of lecturing popular in India, and he would >be aghast if he thought that people took his lectures as him trying to >preach the Law. > > Apparently (from sources here and otherwise), his wife could not take >living in Adyar, and she essentially told him, I'm going back to Brazil. >Come or not, but if you don't come now, don't bother coming later. > > Bart Lidofsky > Thanks for the feedback. I also heard very good things about him. I have not met him. Do you have any idea how young he is? As for his style, I do not know if it has anything to do with lecturing in India. This reminds me of a comment that AP Sinnett had a way of presenting which some people considered pedantic, but it was very effective on many. A side comment on lectures. From my experience, usually one can tell when someone is lecturing, if it is really coming from his whole being or just coming from the head. The latter, while nice to listen and could be very impressive to hear and appear very learned, does not have the same impact as the former. Also many times when you find a lecturer lecturing theosophical topics, and the lecturer is doing it just for living, not as someone who is really committed to Theosophy, it does not have the same impact. How could it good impact? So much for divergence on lectures. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 02:27:34 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Pedro R.M. Oliveira Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970302082734.00bb9a34@mail.eden.com> At 02:24 AM 3/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:55:13 -0500 (EST), you wrote: > >>Things are changing at NetForward! >>http://www.netforward.com/changes.shtml >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>In a message dated 97-03-01 22:37:35 EST, you write: >> >>> >>>There was a Pedro R.M. Oliveira who was the International Secretary at Adyar >>>for some time. Does anyone know which S. American country he is from? A >>>friend asked me and I trying to get the info. >>> >>> >> >>I think it was Brazil. >> >>Chuck the Heretic > >That is correct. He was over here a couple of years ago and I had the >privilige of meeting him. I understand he had family business that he >had to return to Brazil for and Conrad Jaimeson from NZ stepped in. >> > >Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. >Life is not a problem to be solved; >it is a mystery to be lived. > Thanks for the info. How would you describe his style of presenting/lecturing? MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 09:58:05 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 930 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970302155805.00bbd4a8@mail.eden.com> Hi There are a lot of things wrong with the world including the corporate world. As an individual, the only thing that I can possibly do is in my own little way support or not support a thing that I consider not acceptable to me. This I can, not worrying about whether someone else is going to approve it or not. Hopefully as more of us do it this way, we will see changes. mkr At 01:44 AM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >MKR >>> I would like to hear more about the conditions in corporate world. > >CK >>Talk to any young person around you living in it. Ask them about the > >MKR >> Now that you have a first hand experience of the conditions described >>above, have you considered what your alternatives are? May be if we brain >>storm and get some ideas, it may help a lot of people who have got caught in >>the system and by the time most realize where they are heading, it may be >>too late. > >It is not a case of what *my* alternatives are, but a case of what *overall* >alternatives there are. I cannot condone using the products of a society >without being part of the production of those products. Everytime you log >your computer on and download your mail, you are using products produced by >electricity generation industry, the telecommunications industry and the >manufacturing industry, and some poor fool has to provide them for you. > >My question is how do those of us on the western path of involvement in this >material world (I'm sure someone can tell us what ray that is) manage to >both live a spiritual life and stay in this mess while we work to improve >it. It seems we have to make compromises if we wish to stay in the system >enough to be able to act on it to be part of changing it. > >But I'm open to ideas. My current committment is to ecological issues and I >wonder if one of these lists could not be used for a debate such as >eco-theosophy or eco-spirit to combine spiritual and ecological discussion? > >>And HPB got more accomplished than may 100,000 vegetarian calm individuals. >>Let us think about her achievements and ask ourself what is really important >>-- results that help thousands of people or nice conformity to socially >>accepted norms (including those of "Leadbeater Theosophy Model"). > >By their fruits etc. That is why I have opted to stay in rather than get >out, but it's tough going. > >CK >>>What about chook, Uncle Dr Alan - is that classified as meat - or lamb, or >>>pork, or venison, or pheasant or lobster or flake (shark to the >>>uninitiated). >> >>Chook? A word I don't know, but I get your drift. > >Tut tut where is your English Australian dictionary. Don't you get >Neighbours over there in the back blocks? > >Christine > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 13:26:49 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Pedro R.M. Oliveira Message-ID: <970302132648_-904106184@emout16.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-02 01:05:51 EST, you write: > I've met him; he is an extremely nice and highly knowledgeable person. >Interestingly enough, from his lecture style, you would assume that he >was a pedant, but in conversation, he is the opposite. I have been told >that this is due to a style of lecturing popular in India, and he would >be aghast if he thought that people took his lectures as him trying to >preach the Law. Very true on all counts though I found his lecture style too deadly dull to get offended by it. I was trying too hard to stay awake. Good for Mrs. Oliveira. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 14:56:56 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970302205656.006f01ac@mail.eden.com> At 08:04 AM 3/1/97 -0500, Tom wrote: >Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > >>> From: M K Ramadoss > >>> BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients >>in >>> businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, >>> prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my >>> business. > >>Evidently you don't feel these people are worthy enough to receive your >>consultation and advice. I consider this to be a form of discrimination >>based on your own and only your own moral code. > >Anyone should be free to do business with whomever they wish. As >happened in professional baseball, the market will naturally punish >those who make bad business decisions because of discrimination. If I >have a restaurant and if I don't serve black people, I will only be >costing myself business. No other motivation is necessary. Private >businesses should be legally free to discriminate in any way they >want. I was neither racist nor sexist in hiring in my business, but I >swore that the day the government came and told me I didn't have >enough blacks, or women, or gays, or etc., working for me, I would >immediately go out of business. No one has the right to tell others >with whom they must do business. > It is well known that in service business both the service provider and the consumer has the choice of selecting with whom they want to work with. It is rightly so since there is so much personal chemistry involved in service businesses. Unwilling provide along with an unwilling consumer would be the worst combination. If it is selling a product or it is a service like restaurant business, I see serious problems in any kind of discrimination. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:38:33 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Beyond the Science Diet Message-ID: <970302193830_-1071649524@emout08.mail.aol.com> The recent discussions regarding vegetarianism etc. have been interesting; unfortunately, I do not have so much to contribute in way of a "final conclusion," since I am still basically an experimenter when it comes to diet--more or less an ever-changing "pill-and-powder" person, as one of my friends calls me. I do, however, think that "Psychogenesis" might be of ancillary interest here--not in terms of ~what~ one should eat, but rather, in terms of the Levels of consciousness which could be involved with one's approach to eating. As many of you know, I believe that Psychogenesis is already a major component of THE SECRET DOCTRINE and related writings. HPB does not name it as such, of course, but it seems to be the natural term to add the psychological perspective to Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis. It seems important, however, to understand ~psyche~ in its original Greek-root sense meaning "soul" rather than the loose variety of ways modern psychology often renders it. Psychogenesis is literally the process by which the soul "grows" or "generates" itself into the various Degrees of advancing Self-awareness necessary to remain present and perhaps "mediate" the various Levels of consciousness an individual can be in from moment to moment. To have a soul at any particular Level simply means that one has not transmogrified the Self (Atman, Undifferentiated Consciousness, ultimate sense of "I AM") into 100% that Level of consciousness--i.e., that a "Divine Remainder" is still present as "Silent Watcher." >From a theosophical point of view, then, the important difference among individuals seems to be not in their IQ's, erudition, physical or emotional traits, etc.; rather, it is at what increasingly subtle Level of consciousness do they necessarily lose all awareness of themselves. Since an advance in the Degree of the soul tends to "pull up" the preferred Level of consciousness that a person regularly utilizes, it might be worthwhile to look at four possible Levels and their implications for eating: DESIRE-FEELING LEVEL: A person simply desires a particular food and then either eats it or isn't able to eat it for some reason. In terms of consciousness, the person is either temporarily egoically united ("I-deluded") that he or she is the desire for the food, or if thwarted in the indulgence, egoically united with the emotional feelings of frustration, jealousy, deprivation etc. because he or she cannot eat what is desired. There is no actual mental component the ego-formations which come into being here; however, "ex-post-facto" thinking can be involved --i.e., rationales can be developed to justify eating what one desires (e.g.: "When you are dead, there is no more chocolate.") DESIRE-MENTAL LEVEL: Here, the desire-tainted mental nature actually becomes the basis for ego-formations (rather than simply using rationales as servants of desire-feeling ego-formations). One example of desire-mentalism in eating might be vegetarianism based upon sympathy for, or desire to help, the animals. Another might be a body-builder's diet where taste of the food is secondary to its usefulness in service of the desire to have a body with great muscle mass and little fat. Logic prevails at this Level; unfortunately, it is logic which serves a specific desire-purpose. MENTAL LEVEL: This is the Level of pure dispassion and the "Science Diet." It might be argued that it is impossible to approach eating in a perfectly mental manner since ~some~ desired outcome--overall health, feeling of well-being, etc.--must still be involved. Perhaps the "desire" for the non-specific, general, all-inclusive, optimum functioning of everything--energy, physical, emotional, mental, and Spiritual--must be put in a different category from desire-mental desire. Who knows? In any case, ~experimentation~ and ~dispassionate analysis~ are probably key ideas at this Level. SPIRIT-MENTAL LEVEL: This is the theosophical Level. A person utilizing this type of consciousness would probably DIRECTLY APPREHEND (but possibly not be able to support with reasons satisfactory to others) exactly what and where, and why and when and how, and who (requested by Chuck) . . . to eat. . . . Is there really a Spirit-Mental (Buddhi-Manas) way of eating? I believe so, but it is really only conjecture on my part. I, at least, have never been ~aware of myself~ eating in such a way. You see, to ~ensoul~ ("imbue with a soul") such a high Level of consciousness (remain aware of yourself while you utilize the consciousness) would mean, from the Psychogenetic view, that you would have to be experiencing at least ~savilkalpa samadhi~ (the Atma-Buddhic Soul in awareness of itSelf). Furthermore, if I ever do reach such a moment, it is doubtful that I will be interested in finishing my dinner, anyway--irrespective of how many starving children my dad used to say there are in China. . . . ("Name one," I once answered him back.) Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 00:04:00 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 926 Message-ID: <3cZbkDAwPMGzEwjL@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970301002459_-1507296920@emout18.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Is that knowledge from personal experience or an expression of hope? :) Yes. > >Chuck the Haunted Heretic (As previously arranged) Alan the Apparition --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 20:49:16 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: meat industry Message-ID: <199703030204.VAA01815@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Agree with Kym, prostitution should be legalized. It would give some form of protection to both prostitutes and Johns. It couldn't eradicate social disease, but it might lower the percentages. It might also have some influence on sado/masochistic practices, at least the very worst ones. ALso, I don't see any reason why prostitutes have to clutter up our jails. Those are all the reasons I can think of just now. There are probably others. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 21:04:52 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: to exist or not to exist Message-ID: <199703030220.VAA09844@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Are the letters or photographs >of them preserved somewhere? Well now you've got me interested in looking. >Titus, in case no one answered your query, the original Mahatma letters are stored in the British Museum, in a special vault (air conditioned I think) to preserve them. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 03:22:09 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [names] Message-ID: I recently picked up the most remarkable numerological book I have read. Written by Martin Gardner, a reporter for Scientific American, he talks about a rather curious personality called Dr. Matrix, who has been called the greatest numerologist in the world. He also claimed to be the 11th incarnation of Pythagoras - which I can't possibly believe since it is my belief that KH was that personality - but he showed some remarkable mathematical skill. Has anyone heard of him? He was born in 1908 and died about 1980 (bit of a perculiarity itself). Thinking about names it got me thinking... Alice A. Bailey A:A. Lice. Bail ye! A:A. Ice, yell b...,ai. H.P. Blavatsky Sky lab VAT,P.H. Tab,lav,PH,sky taby slav H.P. K H.P. By slav kat By slav hat,P.K. Phat slav,by K Phat slab -v- K No offence meant for the next ones... Alan, the carrot He at LAN, car rot Al,rotten car,ha!! At tor can real H. At torr, can heal. Hat can real rot. He at tor can lar. Chuck the Heretic Heck,cut her ethic Love and Light Busy pen, nib jam. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 22:24:07 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: meat industry Message-ID: <331A4457.2A1F@sprynet.com> liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > Agree with Kym, prostitution should be legalized. It would give some form of > protection to both prostitutes and Johns. It couldn't eradicate social > disease, but it might lower the percentages. It might also have some > influence on sado/masochistic practices, at least the very worst ones. ALso, > I don't see any reason why prostitutes have to clutter up our jails. Those > are all the reasons I can think of just now. There are probably others. A) Except for the cheapest crack whores, studies show that most prostitutes are VERY careful about disease. Interestingly enough, the group of prostitutes second least likely to use protection were the highest class call girls. B) Most sado/masochistic prostitution does not involve sexual contact, and is therefore already legal. C) Prostitutes aren't clogging up the jail cells. Drug users and dealers are. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 22:28:07 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Lecture Styles Message-ID: <331A4547.44C3@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > A side comment on lectures. From my experience, usually one can tell when > someone is lecturing, if it is really coming from his whole being or just > coming from the head. > > The latter, while nice to listen and could be very impressive to hear and > appear very learned, does not have the same impact as the former. Also many > times when you find a lecturer lecturing theosophical topics, and the > lecturer is doing it just for living, not as someone who is really committed > to Theosophy, it does not have the same impact. How could it good impact? > > So much for divergence on lectures. So much for the divurgence; it is now a main topic. In my past lectures, at least for the public, I have tried to maintain balance, sticking to facts, labelling my opinions as such, and giving other possibilities that might conflict with my opinions. As a result, they were, at least in part, coming from my head and not my whole being. Since I have determined to take the attitude, "This is my lecture, this is what I think, this is what I think is based upon", my lectures have been much better received. I still label opinion and fact appropriately, but I no longer give all the other possible opinions. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 00:48:54 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: [names] Message-ID: <970303004851_413524038@emout11.mail.aol.com> HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Chuck the Heretic Who cuts through ethics like his saber through a ripe melon From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 23:51:34 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Lecture Styles Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970303055134.006f8938@mail.eden.com> At 10:37 PM 3/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> A side comment on lectures. From my experience, usually one can tell when >> someone is lecturing, if it is really coming from his whole being or just >> coming from the head. >> >> The latter, while nice to listen and could be very impressive to hear and >> appear very learned, does not have the same impact as the former. Also many >> times when you find a lecturer lecturing theosophical topics, and the >> lecturer is doing it just for living, not as someone who is really committed >> to Theosophy, it does not have the same impact. How could it good impact? >> >> So much for divergence on lectures. > > So much for the divurgence; it is now a main topic. > > In my past lectures, at least for the public, I have tried to maintain >balance, sticking to facts, labelling my opinions as such, and giving >other possibilities that might conflict with my opinions. As a result, >they were, at least in part, coming from my head and not my whole being. > > Since I have determined to take the attitude, "This is my lecture, this >is what I think, this is what I think is based upon", my lectures have >been much better received. I still label opinion and fact appropriately, >but I no longer give all the other possible opinions. > > Bart Lidofsky > Glad to see your response. Whatever works is the best. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 00:51:47 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Lecture Styles Message-ID: <970303005147_1282869320@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-02 22:37:22 EST, you write: > Since I have determined to take the attitude, "This is my lecture, this >is what I think, this is what I think is based upon", my lectures have >been much better received. I still label opinion and fact appropriately, >but I no longer give all the other possible opinions. > > Bart Lidofsky Sounds good to me. If I tried to give all the different points of view in my lectures my audience would become very uncomfortable after five hours. Besides, if the opinions differ from mine they have to be wrong anyway. :) Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 09:33:08 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: [names] Message-ID: <199703031733.JAA09961@palrel1.hp.com> be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) wrote: > I recently picked up the most remarkable numerological book I have read. > Written by Martin Gardner, a reporter for Scientific American, he talks > about a rather curious personality called Dr. Matrix, who has been called > the greatest numerologist in the world. He also claimed to be the 11th > incarnation of Pythagoras - which I can't possibly believe since it is my > belief that KH was that personality - but he showed some remarkable > mathematical skill. Has anyone heard of him? He was born in 1908 and died > about 1980 (bit of a perculiarity itself). Dr. Matrix was a favorite character in Martin Gardner's phantasies. When he mentioned his meetings with Dr. Matrix in Scientific American it was tongue-in-cheek. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 09:55:12 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: re: to exist or not to exist Message-ID: <199703031755.JAA13058@palrel1.hp.com> liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) wrote: TR >> Are the letters or photographs of them preserved somewhere? Well now you've >> got me interested in looking. LFD > Titus, in case no one answered your query, the original Mahatma letters are > stored in the British Museum, in a special vault (air conditioned I think) > to preserve them. Thanks. Yes I did hear that from JHE, who has photographs of them. When my current bandwidth permits, I'll take another look at Mahatma letters ... If I ever finish my dissertation on dreams. Sigh. It's interesting that they would show the Mahatma letters. I hear the British Museum is absolutely fascinating. A friend was there and said his glance happened to fall on a little rock in a corner exhibit with a little card next to it. Walking up for closer examination, he found the card said, "Rosetta stone". Typical British understatement! In America it would be sponsored by Coca-Cola in neon signs with Rosetta stone t-shirts for sale next to it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 10:01:42 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: re: [names] Message-ID: <199703031801.KAA13853@palrel1.hp.com> be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) wrote: > I recently picked up the most remarkable numerological book I have read. > Written by Martin Gardner, a reporter for Scientific American, he talks > about a rather curious personality called Dr. Matrix, who has been called > the greatest numerologist in the world. He also claimed to be the 11th > incarnation of Pythagoras - which I can't possibly believe since it is my > belief that KH was that personality - but he showed some remarkable > mathematical skill. Has anyone heard of him? He was born in 1908 and died > about 1980 (bit of a perculiarity itself). Dr. Matrix was a favorite fantasy figure in Gardner's monthly column. Gardner used this character tongue-in-cheek to add a little flavor to his articles. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 14:24:41 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: re: to exist or not to exist Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970303202441.00baf6c8@mail.eden.com> At 02:10 PM 3/3/97 -0500, you wrote: >liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) wrote: > >TR >>> Are the letters or photographs of them preserved somewhere? Well now you've >>> got me interested in looking. > >LFD >> Titus, in case no one answered your query, the original Mahatma letters are >> stored in the British Museum, in a special vault (air conditioned I think) >> to preserve them. > >Thanks. Yes I did hear that from JHE, who has photographs of them. When my >current bandwidth permits, I'll take another look at Mahatma letters ... If >I ever finish my dissertation on dreams. Sigh. > >It's interesting that they would show the Mahatma letters. I hear the British >Museum is absolutely fascinating. A friend was there and said his glance >happened to fall on a little rock in a corner exhibit with a little card next >to it. Walking up for closer examination, he found the card said, "Rosetta >stone". Typical British understatement! In America it would be sponsored by >Coca-Cola in neon signs with Rosetta stone t-shirts for sale next to it. > I believe for anyone to see the ML, if you contact TS HQ in London, they give you a card which makes it easy for the British Museum to let you go and look at them. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 16:17:34 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: re improving our civilisation Message-ID: <199703032132.QAA09937@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >My question is how do those of us on the western path of involvement in this >>material world (I'm sure someone can tell us what ray that is) manage to >>both live a spiritual life and stay in this mess while we work to improve >>it. It seems we have to make compromises if we wish to stay in the system >>enough to be able to act on it to be part of changing it. I think these questions, which I believe came from Christine, are really worth pondering, from many angles. Hopefully I won't be the only one who'll ponder on them for a while, and who'll express some input. I go for the type of Mahayana Buddhism which says that not too much is accomplished by going into a cave and becoming holy. I think if one follows the Bodhisattva ideal, as I try to do, one tries to do more than sit in meditation & send hopeful prayers and thoughts out into the universe. A Bodhisattva, in case there's anyone who hasn't come across this ideal, is a person who has strived to advance him/herself to the state of nirvana, but decides not to enter this state but rather to return to the everyday world to help the others along their Paths ... till the last blade of grass.. Also, as "the Voice of The Silence" says "And teach thou him who knows still less than thou ..." One needn't wait for Bodhisattvahood to begin to teach, but one can try to bring to others what one has been able to learn at whatever stage one is at. The subject of ecology came up in these sentences. Seems to me that the ecology, such as we find it now, as well as many other factors (which our forebears have produced, and with which our civilisation is now saddled, factors which have come from our ancestors' collective doings,) are now part of our collective Karma. My perception of Karma is that it isn't written in stone, but that when you notice a Karma item with which we can do better, you put your weight towards making it better, as best you can. A number of us doing this will tend to change the Karma, gradually, but it happens, I firmly believe. Let me give you a recent example, which you can watch being implemented if you look around you. Not very many years ago, when we started to take note of the fact that our young people were having babies too early and shooting at each other, after a few riots, a hue and cry went out that neighborhood communities should get involved as one way of ameliorating the problem. Well, as I look around my home town of Syracuse, I see that nowadays, neighborhood organizations have begun to get involved,... not enough of them as yet, but, some schools are staying open after school hours, for tutoring & recreational purposes at the late afternoon hours, and evening hours, when the crime rate is highest, and when you can see kids hang around street corners, bored, looking for mischief to happen. A church on the way to the High School is having breakfasts for youth, manned by volunteer professional counselors, at which the young people can come to discuss anything they wish. i.e. neighbothoods are getting involved, and I think it's already having a slight effect on our collective Karma. Hopefully, it'll snowball, as time goes on. Same for the Green party and all ecological organizations. They are making themselves felt and hopefully slowly changing our collective Karma. I think these kinds of activities by not too many but still a significant number of us, spreads out into many other realms. One person does what they can, and maybe enough of us will change the path into one of a more positive direction, instead of a destructive one. I say I'm a Karma Yoga person, besides a Bodhisattva - in - the -Becoming. As for should we who are following Eastern Paths join in? I believe that the Communists weren't always wrong. They said that the best way to change a system is from the in inside. Thanks goodness, this idea didn't work for the Communists, but I think it's still a good idea. If you're right there on the spot, involved in what goes on, you know much better what the circumstances are, and you can tell much better how you think they could be changed to be more favorable. Just as an example, I've been trying hard to give some help to my far away African Theosophical pen pal. I'm using HPB's philosohpy, which by now is being used all over, that you give people the tools with which they can help themselves. After several exchanges of letters, we decided that the ladies could earn some extra money for their Theosophical Study Center by sewing children's clothes, so, when my neighborhood fabric store had a sale on patterns, I sent them a whole bunch of patterns for children's clothes. Come to find out by return mail, they also needed needles, pins and thread. They haven't as yet asked for cloth, but I bet they need that as well, because my pen pal, who's a teacher, wrote that he can just about feed his 4 kids from his meager salary. That for starters. I hope some others on theos-l will feel moved to chime in to this discussion. Seems to me, it's really worth thinking and talking about. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 07:00:13 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Yogurt in School Menu Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970304130013.0071fcc4@mail.eden.com> There is a very interesting news item in the papers today. Finally, Yogurt has been approved by USDA for schools. Following is an excerpt: Kids who have beef with their school menu are getting a new alternative with the government's blessings: yougurt for lunch. Over strenuous objections of the cattle industry, the Agriculture Department has decided to allow yogurt as a meat substitute in the nation's school lunch rooms. Yogurt is low in fat and will offer a needed alternative for children who cannor or do not eat meat, said Mary Ann Keefe USDA's acting under secretary for food, nutrition and consumer services. The department already allows schools to substitute cheese, beans, eggs, and peanut butter for meat. Yogurt will be added to the approved list of substitutes by the end of the week, Keefe said. Now schools will be allowed to serve it as a main lunch item, giving children a new choice instead of the hamburgers, sloppy joes, meat loaf or other beefy offerings on the menu. Yogurt is likely to be a popular choice with children who are vegetarians or from especially health conscious families, school officials say. For other children, yogurt has been a popular snack or lunch item at home and in day care centers. ================== MKR Comment: In the Asian countries, yogurt is a very important part of their meal. They do not buy ready made yogurt since usually they consume about 1/2 to 1 gallon every other day as it is an essential ingredient in many preparations and at this quantity it is very expensive to buy ready made. Every family makes make yogurt at home. I am glad that school going children who cannot or would not eat meat, now have one more choice. It took 15 years for USDA to approve yogurt in school menu. MK Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 97 10:27:57 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: ISO International Understanding Message-ID: <199703041527.KAA22335@leo.vsla.edu> Hey gang, My library just got a book that gives a fascinating series of snapshots of humanity's present circumstances. It's called The Illustrated Book of World Rankings, and consists of list after list of nations in order of different criteria, involving vital statistics, health, religion, education, politics, military affairs, economics, trade, agriculture, industry, communications, transportation, environment, relative status of women, crime, consumption, housing, and more. Have been so fascinated with some things that I wanted to share them with someone. Having decided that this kind of info falls under the First Object, I'm posting some tidbits in hopes for comments from our international readership. The first shocker for me was the crime and murder statistics. Here in the US we constantly hear media talking heads saying that we are far, far worse off than any other industrialized countries in this regard. It ain't so! We are 19th in murder rate, behind the Netherlands (9) and about equal with Russia (20) and not far ahead of Sweden (23), Italy (25), and Canada (29). That's of 84 reporting, so none of us can be proud. But everyone between #15 and #30 have between 5 and 10 murders per 100,000, whereas the rates in some of the top 10 are truly horrifying: #1 Swaziland 87.76, #2, Bahamas 52.61, #3, MONACO! 36, #4, Philippines 30.12, #5, Guatemala 27.4. Even odder, in overall crime rate we in the US are at #20, after Austria (19), France (18), Australia (15), Germany (12), Netherlands (10). Even more surprisingly #s 4-9 are Sweden, New Zealand, Canada, Denmark, Finland and the UK. However it is hard to trust this scale too much when you look at the alleged lowest crime rates in Nepal, Bangladesh, and Togo. How likely are their statistics to be reliable? To shift focus to something more positive (hope Kym is reading), in "female share of administrative and managerial positions as percent of male" the US is 3rd at 68%, behind Australia and Canada just slightly higher. Islam looks pretty horrible in this regard, as the bottom 10 include Qatar (1%), United Arab Emirates, Djibouti, Pakistan, Turkey, Iran, and Kuwait, all at 5% or under. Another positive: Canada and the US are #1 and #2 in higher education enrollment percentage, around 40% of people over 25 having college degrees. The UK is at 11%, Argentina and NZ under 7, below Iran and Mongolia! What gives? Hey, before you say our college graduates are dumber than their high school graduates, remember that this may be true of the US but is not likely true of Canada. Here's a bizarre gender disparity: French women are the world's longest-lived except for tiny San Marino, but French men rank #17. God's punishment for the people who invented the word chauvinism? Russia has more than 3 abortions for every live birth, 10 times the rate of the US. Puzzlers for consideration: Argentina is lowest in murder at .14/100,000, but Chile is #28 at 5.81; Finland is next to lowest at .6, but Sweden is #23 at 7.02. I confess to having assumed these pairs of countries to be pretty similar in such things. The most embarrassing statistic for me was that the US is not just #1 in GNP, but half again as large as #2 Japan, twice as large as #3 Germany, five times as large as the UK. Yet the UK publishes almost twice as many books per year as we do, and China and Germany are ahead of us too. A weird pattern is that Russia, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are #1-4 in accidental deaths, 4-5 times the rate of the US, which sits at #55 flanked by China and Italy. Must be the vodka. HPB's claims about Buddhists being more moral than Christians don't jive very well with Sri Lanka and Thailand having higher murder rates than the U.S. The five lowest are Indonesia, Ireland, Saudi Arabia, Finland, and Argentina, which makes Islam and Christianity look like good influences in some places at least. But the country with the highest percentage of Christians, Moldova at 98.5%, is not a very good example although the country with the lowest percent, Somalia at .1 is surely a sign that things go better with Jesus. Nepal has a higher percentage of Hindus than India does. Despite their vegetarianism, India has the highest per capita cattle, double that of the US. And also the world's largest vegetable production by a long shot; China leads in pork production and smoking yet its cancer rate is lower than most European countries. The US is #1 in total meat consumption, but Ireland has the highest daily calories. The English language seems to be some kind of preventative of suicide, as in the bottom 10 of 24 reporting are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the US, Scotland, England/Wales. Highest are Hungary, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Belgium, Switzerland, France. People are 25 times more likely to die in auto accidents in #1 Portugal than in bottom ranked Chile. We think of illegitimacy as an American problem, but rank 35th right under the UK with 29.5 percent of births to unwed mothers. In some African and Caribbean countries the rate is over 70%, but also Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, and New Zealand are well ahead of us in illegitimacy. One amusing stat was that #1 in home ownership was Mongolia at 100%. The obvious implication is that we can end homelessness in America by introducing yurts. That's probably plenty for now, but if anyone has any questions just ask and I'll look it up. Oh, one last guilty thought. As I sit here goofing off on the Net, I can't help pondering the fact that the US is #5 in energy use per capita, 7918 kg, 10 times more than mid-ranked Uruguay and Thailand, 100 times as much as Vietnam or Sierra Leone, and 1000 times as much as Somalia. Time to sign off. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:35:30 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: [names] Message-ID: Mad Chuck Steak: >HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! > >Chuck the Heretic > >Who cuts through ethics like his saber through a ripe melon What about Manic Loser Has Cow (Charles W. Cosimano)? Tara N. Hot (Thoa T. Tran) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:26:13 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: [names] Message-ID: <970304132610_-1171830161@emout16.mail.aol.com> If I ever lose I'll have to remember that. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 01:49:23 -0500 (EST) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Digest 937 Message-ID: <970305014922_279024705@emout14.mail.aol.com> I can't resist commenting about the suggestion of Kim and Liesel that prostitution should be legalized. That will not happen anytime soon because American society, to choose just one example, is far too confused about the issue to make any kind of rational decisions with regard to it. We should keep in mind that this is a society that: 1. Tolerates tobacco, a proven carcinogen. 2. Tolerates alcohol, guaranteed (with heavy and prolonged use) to damage or destroy the liver and kidneys. 3. Tolerates violent sports such as boxing (in which the principle objective is to cause sufficient brain damage to produce unconsciousness). 4. Will not tolerate prostitution in any form even though (with strict regulation) it doesn't produce any of the above-listed side-effects. It seems fair to conclude that it would not tolerate it even for individuals who might volunteer to give up all three of the other "vices." This is because consideration of the issue has historically been done at an emotional rather than a rational level. It will prob- ably remain that way for the foreseeable future. Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:41:29 GMT+2 From: "JOS KOETSIER" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 934 Rukmini Message-ID: <35C0155DFE@education.uwc.ac.za> > >> In a message dated 97-02-25 09:53:40 EST, you write: > >> > >> >On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, m.k. ramadoss wrote: > >> Why on earth would Rukmini call herself an arhat,if it were patently > >> untrue? > >> >> > >> Because she was either an idiot or crazy or both. > >> > >> Or maybe, like her husband, a congenital liar. > >> > >> Chuck the Heretic > > > >Chuck: I am being mis-quoted. That was not mine. > > > >mkr > > > >Bellville, 27.2.1997 > > > >I have known Srimati Rukmini Devi for many years and was associated > >with her between 1975 and 1984. During that period I visited > >Kalakshetra College of Fine Arts in Tiruvanmiyur near Adyar > >during half a year and did educational research work. I have > >appreciated her great commitment towards the cause of education in > >India. As you might know she and Dr. Arundale made it possible for > >Maria Montessori to introduce her system of pre-primary education to > >South Asia. She also founded Kalakshetra, which was in those days one > >of the most reknown institutions for the Bharatanatyan style of > >dancing and did a lot in animal welfare work and travelled untill her > >death round the world to promote Theosophy. > >I came to know her as a down to earth person. > > > >I know that there were controversies around her person but would > >appreciate if these would be dealt with in an impartial and > >historically contextualized way. Remarks like reproduced in the above > >mentioned quote do not bring us anywhere. > > > >With kind regards > >Jos Koetsier > >Member of the TS in Cape Town South Africa > > > Hi, Jos: As I had stated in a post, I was misquoted and Chuck has responded > he mistyped. > > Even though I did not know her personally, while I was a member and an > officer of the TS Lodge in Bangalore, India there were several occassions > when I had the opportunity to invite her to come and speak at the lodge. > Most of the time she was visiting on Kalashetra or Animal Welfare business, > and every time she was invited she always squeezed in to come and deliver a > lecture. All the lectures were very practically oriented and were much > appreciated. > > Anyone who has an opportunity to visit Madras has just to go and see > Kalashetra and then one can appreciate what she did for art and Indian > dance. Some time ago it was made a National University. All this was > accomplished by her single handedly. > > I wanted to add my 2 cents worth, as they say in the USA. > > mkr Bellville, 05.03.1997 Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate your response. Could you please give me more details about how Kalakshetra was made a National University. Did that happen before or after Rukmini died? (1986?) yours Jos Koetsier From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 07:56:36 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Free Maps Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970305135636.007374ec@mail.eden.com> ----------------------------------- Getting Around Town, A La Microsoft ----------------------------------- Hand-held computers just got handier with Microsoft's latest release, Pocket Automap Streets. The new travel series software from Microsoft runs on the Windows CE operating system. Included with this handy little gem you'll receive maps to 40 major metropolitan areas -- helping you locate streets, hotels and restaurants of interest within seconds. Easy to read maps make the task of navigation quick and simple, with zoom buttons at your disposal to scale the map as required. To download your free copy, simply point and click your browsers to the URL below. Men, this one is a must have. The next time you tell your wife you know where you're going, you actually will. Microsoft, Web: http://www.microsoft.com/automap/ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 07:56:37 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 934 Rukmini Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970305135637.00739130@mail.eden.com> At 07:43 AM 3/5/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >> In a message dated 97-02-25 09:53:40 EST, you write: >> >> >> >> >On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, m.k. ramadoss wrote: >> >> Why on earth would Rukmini call herself an arhat,if it were patently >> >> untrue? >> >> >> >> >> Because she was either an idiot or crazy or both. >> >> >> >> Or maybe, like her husband, a congenital liar. >> >> >> >> Chuck the Heretic >> > >> >Chuck: I am being mis-quoted. That was not mine. >> > >> >mkr >> > >> >Bellville, 27.2.1997 >> > >> >I have known Srimati Rukmini Devi for many years and was associated >> >with her between 1975 and 1984. During that period I visited >> >Kalakshetra College of Fine Arts in Tiruvanmiyur near Adyar >> >during half a year and did educational research work. I have >> >appreciated her great commitment towards the cause of education in >> >India. As you might know she and Dr. Arundale made it possible for >> >Maria Montessori to introduce her system of pre-primary education to >> >South Asia. She also founded Kalakshetra, which was in those days one >> >of the most reknown institutions for the Bharatanatyan style of >> >dancing and did a lot in animal welfare work and travelled untill her >> >death round the world to promote Theosophy. >> >I came to know her as a down to earth person. >> > >> >I know that there were controversies around her person but would >> >appreciate if these would be dealt with in an impartial and >> >historically contextualized way. Remarks like reproduced in the above >> >mentioned quote do not bring us anywhere. >> > >> >With kind regards >> >Jos Koetsier >> >Member of the TS in Cape Town South Africa >> >> >> Hi, Jos: As I had stated in a post, I was misquoted and Chuck has responded >> he mistyped. >> >> Even though I did not know her personally, while I was a member and an >> officer of the TS Lodge in Bangalore, India there were several occassions >> when I had the opportunity to invite her to come and speak at the lodge. >> Most of the time she was visiting on Kalashetra or Animal Welfare business, >> and every time she was invited she always squeezed in to come and deliver a >> lecture. All the lectures were very practically oriented and were much >> appreciated. >> >> Anyone who has an opportunity to visit Madras has just to go and see >> Kalashetra and then one can appreciate what she did for art and Indian >> dance. Some time ago it was made a National University. All this was >> accomplished by her single handedly. >> >> I wanted to add my 2 cents worth, as they say in the USA. >> >> mkr >Bellville, 05.03.1997 > >Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate your response. Could you >please give me more details about how Kalakshetra was made a National >University. Did that happen before or after Rukmini died? (1986?) > >yours > >Jos Koetsier > Kalashetra was made a National University a couple of years ago after Rukmini's death. Being made a National University assures a lot of funding for the school. I think it may be due to the recognition of its role in Dance and Art in India. BTW, Rukmini was a legislator (senator) in the upper house of the Indian Parliament for several years and this was due to her work in Indian Dance and Animal Welfare. Also very few outside India can understand the importance placed on the Bharta Natya -- traditional Indian Dance -- in today's Indian Society. One has just to note that even in the United States most major cities have one or more Indian Dance schools. In my own city there are two schools. My friend's daughter graduated from one of the schools and the debut was celebrated at a cost of $25,000.00. Of course the parents could afford such a price tag and this included treating all of us to a buffet dinner after the debut. As they say, let us give the credit where it is due. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:47:14 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: A Request Message-ID: <199703051647.LAA14568@cliff.cris.com> I'm just popping back in to address the question of private email. I signed off the list to pursue a long-running writing project, in the hopes of finishing it before the millennium. All private email is welcome. However, I have no interest in reading personal agendas, long disertations or manifestos regarding food, the history of TS, Halle Bopp, the cloning of John Algeo, the Masters, men vs. women, the by-laws or the morphing of humans into carrots, If you wish to send me this material, please send an email and ask first if I would wish to see it. I consider this proper netiquette, since I have signed off the list and given notice that I have. Thank you, -Ann E. Bermingham From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 10:54:41 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Info needed Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970305165441.00681cf0@mail.eden.com> There is a mention somewhere in one of the eastern scriptures or books that the total number of souls in evolution is in the order of 600,000 million. Can anyone give me the citation? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 00:36:11 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Welcome Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970306063611.00728ac8@mail.eden.com> Hi, Welcome to theos-l. I saw the following new subscriber to theos-l. SAFRON@CONCENTRIC.NET Johne Q. Public Looks like we may have seen Johne Q. Public in his/her last incarnation! M K Ramadoss aka mkr aka ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:34:08 GMT+2 From: "JOS KOETSIER" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 940, Rukmini, 600.000 million souls Message-ID: <489D984D25@education.uwc.ac.za> > From: ramadoss@eden.com > To: theos-l@vnet.net > Subject: Info needed > Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970305165441.00681cf0@mail.eden.com> > > There is a mention somewhere in one of the eastern scriptures or books that > the total number of souls in evolution is in the order of 600,000 million. > Can anyone give me the citation? Bellville, 06.03.1997 Thanks again for the interesting information about Kalakshetra. Concerning the number of souls in evolution: Unfortunately I don't have a source but I got a different number from a South Moluccan Theosophist in 1966. He quoted 60.000 million souls which were looking for incarnation on Planet Earth, which is about 12 times the numbers of souls which are in incarnation now. I'll ask people down here whether they know the source and I'll let you know. unless somebody else on the net has the answer in one of the next bulletins. Does your '600.000 million' only refer to Planet Earth or are incarnations on other globes also included? With kind regards Yours Jos Koetsier Cape Town RSA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 07:14:31 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: ML to APS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970306131431.0073bc00@mail.eden.com> Hi Here is some interesting information I saw on Theosophy World #11, March 1, 1997 I received in e-mail. I need to congratulate TUP in taking the lead to put these two valuable and very often used books on-line. This is the way the industry is going and soon we will have all the Theosophy Classics on line. MKR ====================================== NEW EBOOKS ON TUP ONLINE SITE by Sara Bell Dougherty THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P. SINNETT and BHAGAVAD-GITA with Judge's "Essays on the Gita" have been added to TUP Online Site. Theosophical University Press has added electronic versions of two more of its publications to its online site (www.theosociety.org/pasadena). First is Judge's BHAGAVAD-GITA combined with his "Essays on the Gita," and second is THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P. SINNETT, both in html format with helpful links throughtout the texts. THE BHAGAVAD-GITA is Judge's recension of all eighteen chapters of the Gita, combined with his insightful and explanatory essays on the first seven chapters. THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P. SINNETT contains all the letters in A. T. Barker's 2nd edition, linked in the order in which he published and numbered them, as well as chronologically using Margaret Conger's "Combined Chronology" for the Mahatma and Blavatsky letters -- links to both the chronologically previous and following letters are given for each letter. The files containing the individual letters are named in such a way that it is easy to go to any particular letter without a link. Also included are Barker's article "How the Mahatma Letters Were Written" and his discussion of "Mars and Mercury"; the Foreword, Preface, Introduction, Biographical Sketches, and Bibliography from TUP's edition of the "Combined Chronology", which give useful background information; and two letters not included by Barker: the first letter of K.H. to A.O. Hume, and the View of the Chohan on the T.S. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:50:39 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: Solar or Planetary evolution..? Message-ID: <19970306165036330.AAA360@ras145.vortex.is> >From: ramadoss@eden.com >"There is a mention somewhere in one of the eastern scriptures or books that >the total number of souls in evolution is in the order of 600,000 million. >Can anyone give me the citation?" ------------------- Can you please give us a closer look at your text. What is the source.? Are you here talking about the number of souls taking part in our lesser manvantara - the round.? - Or do you have in mind the Globe period. The manvantara..? "There are seven ROUNDS in every manvantara; this one is the Fourth, ..." (S.D. II page 434 ) Some say; that there are 60 thousand million monads taking part in the human evolution, in our present Solar System. - And some think of this number of monads as the total figure for the Planetary Scheme. What do you have in mind.? Do you have in mind the number of souls now taking part in our Planetary evolution.? Or do you also have in mind the Systemic evolution..? Sveinn Freyr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:52:32 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: Cooperation in astrological research Message-ID: <19970306165231655.AAA320@ras145.vortex.is> Are there some astrological research students on this list.? I am seeking cooperation with students living in the southern part of the Globe, or in the upper northern part. Among subjects; the focus is on the Zodiac, and on the house divisional problem. S. F. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 19:36:59 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [Dr. Matrix] Message-ID: Hi Titus, You mentioned that when Gardner mentioned his meetings with Dr. Matrix in S.A. it was in tongue-in-cheek.However, I didn't read the S.A. articles but found the info in his book "The Magic Numbers Of Dr. Matrix" (1985 by Prometheus Books) where he actually described his meetings in some detail. They appeared quite real to me. I would be interested to know, for example, if there ever was a so called "Professor T. Ignatius Marx" in the Maths dept.of Wordsworth College in New Wye, New York in approximately 1966 - (Dr. Matrix as Gardner found him to be).I would also be interested to know whether there is other material on "automorphs" as he called them. Also, whilst it sounds so totally absurd to even consider, I would also be interested to know if there ever was a "Squaresville", and whether there is amy further info. on what "Matrix" called "psychonumeranalysis". love and light Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 18:00:07 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: URL for TUP Online Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970307000007.0069c2d4@mail.eden.com> In response to my post on ML to APS being available on-line there was an inquiry as to the URL for TUP. It is: WWW.THEOSOCIETY.ORG/PASADENA/TUP-ONL.HTM I think if you just use www.theosociety.org/pasadena you should be able to get on their www. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 00:22:14 GMT From: gbartle@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gregg Bartle) Subject: Re: [Dr. Matrix] Message-ID: <332151b6.25178545@uclink4> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:43:53 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >Hi Titus, > >You mentioned that when Gardner mentioned his meetings with Dr. Matrix in >S.A. it was in tongue-in-cheek.However, I didn't read the S.A. articles but >found the info in his book "The Magic Numbers Of Dr. Matrix" (1985 by >Prometheus Books) where he actually described his meetings in some detail. >They appeared quite real to me. Sorry, Titus, but Dr. Matrix is a total fabrication of Gardner's. The point, beyond fascinating mathematical games, is, in fact, to ridicule areas like numerology. Prometheus Books is the publishing arm of CSICOP (Center for Scientific Claims Of the Paranormal), the major skeptical, debunking in the United States as well as publishers of the excellent, if sometimes infuriating, magazine 'Skeptical Inquirer'. Peace to all beings - Gregg Bartle, member Theosophy International From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 00:40:05 GMT From: gbartle@uclink.berkeley.edu (Gregg Bartle) Subject: Re: [Dr. Matrix] Message-ID: <33226318.29629994@uclink4> On Thu, 6 Mar 1997 19:26:21 -0500 (EST), I wrote: >....... Prometheus Books is the publishing arm of CSICOP (Center for >Scientific Claims Of the Paranormal), Of course, that's really 'Center for Scientific *Investigation* of Claims of the Paranormal'. Sorry for the typo. Peace to all beings - Gregg Bartle, member Theosophy International From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 23:46:05 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: URL for TUP online Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970307054605.006878bc@mail.eden.com> Hi, re- ML to APS some times the URL I have provided before had some difficulty in reaching. You can try the following url: http://www.halcyon.com/pasadena/ Hope this helps. ...doss PS: Once you down load, the letters are in HTML and if you want to convert it to ordinary ASCII, you need a simple utility to do it. My favorite one is: HTMLCON.ZIP From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 05:53:57 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Navajo & Tibetan Sacred Wisdom Message-ID: <3323fe12.58615598@mail.earthlink.net> A BOOK REVIEW ============= Peter Gold has written a beautiful and scholarly book called "Navajo & Tibetan Sacred Wisdom: The Circle of the Spirit." Gold was fascinated with the idea of comparing two cultures that live at the opposite ends of the earth while sharing my similar insights. Both societies live on the world's highest inhabited plateaus and share deeply spiritual ways of life filled with wisdom, rituals, and art that produce observable results in the lives of the people. Gold writes: "Tibetan and Navajo life is a process of constant re-balancing and perfecting of one's actions expressions, and thoughts into an ideal state as befits each culture's ultimate role models.... Both groups see the process of living as a spiritual journey, an individual and communal effort to develop each person into the best version of him or herself, in the company of like-minded people dedicated to the integration of matter and spirit." Gold observes that both cultures lack our word "religion," which literally means to bind back, to link back. In the Tibetan and Navajo cultures, spirituality is a way of life, and there is no sense of linking back to anything. This sense of full and present participation in a spiritual way of living contrasts sharply with Western culture where religion is often seen as a counter-force to everyday life, where being spiritual means being different and having to swim against the current. Both the Tibetans and the Navajos perceive life as a journey toward the unity of matter and spirit, real and ideal. The Tibetans use two words to express this ideal state of being: "tashi," a harmonious relationship with the universe, and "sangye se," Buddha nature or enlightenment. The Navajos, on the other hand, use the word "hozho" or "beauty" to describe an "empowered staet of the deities, immune from physical and mental suffering." Gold reflects, "We too have terms for this most essential goal of living. The mystics call this state of mind illumination, and its state of being, holiness. The etymology of our word 'holiness,' which derives from the same old Anglo-Saxon root as do 'heal' and 'whole,' also reveals the universality operating at the heart of the Navajo and Tibetan spiritual paths. In their perennial philosophies, matter and spirit, body and mind, self and cosmos, I and thou are inseparable. As such, to attend to one means to involve the other." Gold's thesis is that there are four universal principles underlying spiritual paths around the world and that these principles are plainly evident in the vital spiritual traditions of the Tibetan and the Navajos. Gold calls these four principles the Circle of the Spirit. Here are the four underlying principles: 1) "Awakening and Connecting to the Nature of Things" This awakening refers to the first awareness of the unity of all things, of the one creative life force that flows through all living things. 2) "Balancing and Unifying Earth with Sky" Earth and sky are used symbolically to represent the universal, polar energies of mother and father, female and male, matter and spirit, time and eternity. "Tibetan and Navajo spiritual teachings place major emphasis on the unity of the two, with the spiritual path wending its way in between." 3) "Centering in the Mandala of Self and Cosmos" This principle involves balancing and unifying earth and sky--the paradoxical and seemingly conflicting forces of our beings--by centering in the mandala of self and cosmos. Both the Navajos and the Tibetans create mandalas that symbolically reveal how to balance and unify the imperfect outer world and a sacred and ideal inner world. 4) "Becoming: Sacred Rites of Transformation" Gold observes that understanding these principles will never create a vital spiritual experience or a transforming way of life. Something more is needed to bring an individual "onto a specific daily spiritual path, one formulated to bolster the body/mind's inner strengths and defeat its self-destructive weaknesses." Both the Tibetans and the Navajos have developed vast traditions of knowledge and sacred rites of transformation. Gold writes, "But most of their spiritual lineages, called 'haatal,' or 'chantway,' by the Navajo and 'gyud' or 'tantra' by the Tibetans, are geared to orchestrating a transformative spiritual journey into the ideal world with a return into the maelstrom of the real world as an empowered (healed, whole, and holy) person." Gold refers to these four principles as the Circle of the Spirit for the following reason. Both cultures depict concentric circles, a small, inner circle connected to an outer, larger one by means of four lines, creating four quadrants. Gold writes, "The smaller circle is the microcosm, the finite body/mind or self, yet it is also the source of all awareness and life. The larger circle is the macrocosm, the infinite body/mind of the universe and, simultaneously, the fully expanded individual on the spiritual path." What then are the results of this spiritual path in the lives of the Tibetans and the Navajos? What benefits would entice us to step onto the path of spiritual transformation? Gold offers the following quotes from objective observers: The anthropologist Gary Witherspoon observed of the Navajo that which is also true of the Tibetan: "If a Navajo is to be truly healthy and happy, beauty must dominate his thought and speech, and harmony must permeate his environment. Beauty flows from the mind or inner form of a person. Navajos have radiant personalities and the beauty they have within themselves seems to radiate from the inner core of their being. This can be readily seen in firsthand observation or even in photographs." Consider the following comment by Thubten Jigme Norbu (Tagtser Rinpoche): "I think of Tibet as a beautiful country, and so it is, but the greatest beauty to me is that the people live a life dedicated to religion. You know it when you meet them, without being told. There is a warmth that touches you, a power that fills you with new strength, a peace that is gentle. I remember such people, and I feel sad that now it is so seldom one meets their like." I will bring this lengthy book report to a close with three quotes. If we want to help the world we have to make a personal journey. It is up to each of us individually to find the meaning of enlightened society and how it can be realized. --Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche There is no alternative [to ultimate happiness] other than the spiritual way. We must make a strong determination to practice. --The XIV Dalai Lama The following is a Navajo prayer used at the end of many ceremonies and tribal council gatherings: In beauty may we dwell. In beauty may we walk. In beauty may our male kindred dwell. In beauty may our female kindred dwell. In beauty may it rain on our young men. In beauty may it rain on our young women. In beauty may it rain on our chiefs. In beauty may it rain on us. In beauty may our corn grow. In the trail of pollen may it rain. In beauty all around us may it rain. In beauty may we walk. The beauty is restored. The beauty is restored. The beauty is restored. The beauty is restored. _____________________________________ One of the hardest lessons to learn - yet absolutely essential for those dedicated to the search for Truth - is the reality of paradoxes - contradictions and uncertainty. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j. }~!~{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "Some men can live up to their lofties ideals without ever going higher than a basement" - Theodore Roosevelt From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 08:54:18 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Skeptics Message-ID: <33201E0A.6161@sprynet.com> Gregg Bartle wrote: > Sorry, Titus, but Dr. Matrix is a total fabrication of Gardner's. The point, > beyond fascinating mathematical games, is, in fact, to ridicule areas like > numerology. Prometheus Books is the publishing arm of CSICOP (Center for > Scientific Claims Of the Paranormal), the major skeptical, debunking in the > United States as well as publishers of the excellent, if sometimes > infuriating, magazine 'Skeptical Inquirer'. CSICOP is somewhat tarnished by a religious mission; the major members are fundamentalist atheists (consider atheism to be a matter of fact rather than opinion, anybody who believes in any form of divinity should be committed to an insane asylum, etc.). A somewhat better group is the Skeptics Society, who publish Skeptic magazine, which frequently presents both sides of the story. James Randi, now that he has his own foundation, is very much improving; he is recognizing the difference between people committing fraud and people who genuinely believe in what they are doing, and concentrating on the former rather than the latter. I have found that the level of postmodernist attitudes towards science among Theosophists to be surprisingly high. When James Randi sponsored a nursing group who wanted to test Therapeutic Touch (I was slightly involved as a contact person trying to round of TT practitioners for them to test), a lot of the practitioners I asked responded with, "Therapeutic Touch isn't a MEN'S science, which needs to be tested. It is a WIMMEN'S science, and all we need is our own intution to prove it." Unfortunately, they want to have it both ways, and to allow TT courses to count towards their science requirement in nursing school, and to have BS's awarded for majors in Therapeutic Touch. The problem that I see with postmodernist views towards science among Theosophists is that, in the postmodernist view, the ego is what reigns supreme. In other words, Truth is determined entirely by the lower self, and anybody's statement on Truth (or even fact) is as good as anybody else's (ignoring the story of the postmodernist philosopher who demonstrated that green was red and red was green, and would have published it, but he died in an auto accident on the way to his publisher). I don't really see the Theosophists who are taking the postmodernist perspective as being anti-Theosophical, but more as being lazy. Why bother learning science when it is all a matter of opinion anyway? Didn't Einstein disprove Newton? (for those here who don't have a science background, the answer is no, Einstein did NOT disprove Newton; he merely showed that Newton's laws were special cases of a more general principle). In any case, I have found that many common interpretations of the early Theosohpical writings are in direct conflict with scientific knowledge (as opposed to philosophy of science, "mechanistic beliefs" being philosophy and not science). A good example was that members of the 4th root race were 45 feet tall, humanoid in form, and our physical anscestors. I will not go into all the reasons why it would take a major scientific revolution (for example, having the laws of physics change radically over a period of a few hundred thousand years without our being able to notice it in geological evidence), but it leaves three major possibilities: 1) Our scientific knowledge is wrong. 2) Blavatsky was wrong. 3) Our interpretation of Blavatsky is wrong. Certainly, since Blavatsky does not claim infallibility (nor do the Mahatmas, as their letters went through students who might not have gotten the words right, even if what the Mahatmas intended to say was correct), #2 is a tempting possibility. The postmodernists, of course, will hang on #1. But, not wishing to unnecessarily multiply entities, I would soonest look at #3. I have yet to find in the Primary Literature (and would love it if someone could point it out to me) anything which definitely says that the 4th root race were the PHYSICAL anscestors of the 5th root race, nor anything saying that it was humanoid in form. It certainly can be inferred from what was written, but it is not stated outright. This leads one to think that, while monads theoretically cannot be reincarnated into lower species, they CAN be reincarnated into HIGHER species. Now, this is PURE conjecture, but look at the ancient stories of friendship between humans and dolphins. And consider the relative size of dolphins and whales, and the size variations of the 4th root race reported in the Primary Literature. Could it be that the 4th root race were aquatic mammals? That dolphins and whales are the physical remnants of the 4th root race, their monads long ago having moved on to the more complex humanoids? Could dolphins have something to do with the fact that, at one point, a species of ape decided to leave the comfort of its trees, and start using intelligence and tools to survive? Or is there a better theory? Be that as it may, I strongly recommend reading the skeptical magazines as an excercise in discrimination, and as part of the 2nd objective. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 14:49:12 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Skeptics Message-ID: <970307144910_-1272146460@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-07 08:58:01 EST, you write: > Be that as it may, I strongly recommend reading the skeptical magazines >as an excercise in discrimination, and as part of the 2nd objective. > > I agree. The more we are involved with anything paranormal the more we need our skeptics to keep our feet on the ground, annoying as they may sometimes be. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 22:47:09 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Skeptics Message-ID: <3320E13D.40AF@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-03-07 08:58:01 EST, you write: > > > Be that as it may, I strongly recommend reading the skeptical magazines > >as an excercise in discrimination, and as part of the 2nd objective. > > I agree. > > The more we are involved with anything paranormal the more we need our > skeptics to keep our feet on the ground, annoying as they may sometimes be. I am impressed that you actually read all the way through that missive. Thanks. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 00:11:19 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Skeptics Message-ID: <970308001118_686346283@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-07 22:57:34 EST, you write: > > I am impressed that you actually read all the way through that missive. >Thanks. Well, having to deal with them a lot, I naturally was curious as to your take on the subject. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 11:08:25 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [skeptics] Message-ID: Bart, Do you know if you can get the "Skeptic" and/or "Skeptic Inquirer" in the UK? About your comment on dolphins: you could equally say that of cats and lions bearing in mind what we know of the Egyptians,although the scale may be different. I wonder also whether the rounds have anything to do with it. Maybe the 4th root race was on the 3rd globe, or on the 4th globe in another scheme altogether.Who knows? Namaste' Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 97 6:10:52 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Skeptics Message-ID: <199703081110.GAA10086@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Bart and all, This business of skeptics and their fundamentalism is of great concern to me now as I write about Cayce. I cannot find a single example of a writer who has criticized/rejected Cayce's clairvoyance who is not also obviously dismissive of *all* clairvoyance a priori. Thus their real, not very well concealed position is "There is no such thing as clairvoyance, therefore Cayce cannot possibly be an example of it." On the Caycean side of the argument is a lot of credulity with a few writers making serious efforts to weigh all the evidence pro and con. If someone would argue that there is such a thing as clairvoyance (GESP) and that Cayce does not appear to be a genuine case of same, then I'd really be interested and would have something to chew on. With HPB the situation is similar but not so severe. Until recently the camps seemed to be a) there is no such thing as ancient wisdom preserved in esoteric orders, and therefore HPB cannot be a transmitter of it, and b) who are these mere scientists to judge the unfathomable truths of The Secret Doctrine? Bart, I see a residue of true believerism in your attempt to rescue SD anthropogenesis. Intellectual honesty, IMO, requires us to admit that it's just plain wrong from top to bottom. That doesn't mean HPB didn't really get it from some esoteric traditional source. Nor that there might be tidbits of truth in the scheme. But as a picture of where humanity was in evolutionary terms 10,000, 100,000, a million or 18 million years ago, it's hopeless and unsalvageable. Or, conversely, contemporary science is hopelessly and unsalvageably astray. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 09:33:00 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: [skeptics] Message-ID: <3321789C.2F5A@sprynet.com> Benjamin Mark Pybus wrote: > > Bart, > > Do you know if you can get the "Skeptic" and/or "Skeptic Inquirer" in the UK? Check out Jim Lippard's web page at http://www.skeptic.com. That is effectively the home page of Skeptic magazine, and has a number of excellent skeptical links, which should lead you to the email addresses which can give you the info you want (for example, my wife got the full collection of Skeptic magazine from a phone number on that page; you could probably do the same through email). I will answer the rest of your question with a new subject header. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 09:39:42 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Trans-species Transmigration Message-ID: <33217A2E.7CB0@sprynet.com> Benjamin Mark Pybus wrote: > About your comment on dolphins: you could equally say that of cats and lions > bearing in mind what we know of the Egyptians,although the scale may be > different. I wonder also whether the rounds have anything to do with it. > Maybe the 4th root race was on the 3rd globe, or on the 4th globe in another > scheme altogether.Who knows? My comment on dolphins was a total guess. The point was to show that there are other species that are capable of holding monads slightly less evolved than humans (elephants also come to mind), and that I could find nothing in the primary literature that states that such trans-species reincarnation, at least from a lower species to a higher species, does not take place. The implications of this are that we may be seeing the beginnings of the sixth root race. With Intel's new parallel processing technology (not that parallel processing is new; their innovation is to create an arbitrarily expandable platform), we are not that far (my guess is within 20 years) of every college in the country having at least one computer with a complexity on the same order as the physical human nervous system, with artificial intelligence researchers doing their thing on all of them. If the physical connections and the algorithms are there (note that neural networks using fuzzy logic and true random number generators have gotten past the problems that Godel's Incompleteness Theorems have posed on artificial intelligence), will the etheric connections follow? And will monads be attracted to them? Will the 6th root race be cybernetic? Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 09:46:47 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Skeptics Message-ID: <33217BD7.611A@sprynet.com> K. Paul Johnson wrote: > Bart, I see a residue of true believerism in your attempt to > rescue SD anthropogenesis. Or, I treat it as a fun intellectual exercise... > Intellectual honesty, IMO, requires > us to admit that it's just plain wrong from top to bottom. Or allegorical. Or (and my official position in Theosophical circles) that what she received was the truth, but she had her own mindset to deal with, and what we have received was the truth having passed through her own filtering mechanisms. For example, in the country of the blind, a person gains sight for one day. How does he describe color to his countrymen? (This, by the way, is where postmodernist philosophy and techniques actually do some good, as it is analyzing the place of the ego in areas where the ego has a great deal of relevance). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 97 10:30:44 -0800 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: CSICOP Message-ID: <199703081829.KAA13614@scv1.apple.com> >CSICOP is somewhat tarnished by a religious mission; the major members >are fundamentalist atheists (consider atheism to be a matter of fact >rather than opinion, anybody who believes in any form of divinity should >be committed to an insane asylum, etc.). Bart, I have never seen any statement from any member of CSICOP to the effect that believers should be committed to insane asylums. This seems like a malicious and defamatory statement about the group. Please substantiate it or withdraw it. Thank you. >I have found that many common interpretations of the early >Theosohpical writings are in direct conflict with scientific knowledge You gave one good example. Another is an odd disdain for the law of gravity, repeatedly insisting that the solar system was held in its orbits by a magnetic motor effect. This appeared in both the Mahatma letters and the Secret Doctrine. Another one of the Mahatma letters also has a completely farcical "refutation" of the idea of potential energy. I had wondered how modern Theosophists came to terms with these scientific mistakes and I appreciate your comments on the area. Tim Maroney From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:25:55 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Correct quoting. Message-ID: <199703082125.NAA22466@palrel1.hp.com> Gregg Bartle wrote: > Sorry, Titus, but Dr. Matrix is a total fabrication of Gardner's ... N.B.: I was making the one making the claim of fabrication in answer to another's question. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 14:50:05 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: skeptics Message-ID: <9703082250.AA04765@toto.csustan.edu> >In any case, I have found that many common interpretations of >the early Theosohpical writings are in direct conflict with >scientific knowledge (as opposed to philosophy of science, >"mechanistic beliefs" being philosophy and not science). A good >example was that members of the 4th root race were 45 feet tall, >humanoid in form, and our physical anscestors. I will not go >into all the reasons why it would take a major scientific >revolution (for example, having the laws of physics change >radically over a period of a few hundred thousand years without >our being able to notice it in geological evidence), but it >leaves three major possibilities: > >1) Our scientific knowledge is wrong. >2) Blavatsky was wrong. >3) Our interpretation of Blavatsky is wrong. On the other hand, Blavatsky writes that the human race did not become physical until the end of the third root race. Since each root race is supposed to begin at the midpoint of the former one, that means that physicalization did not begin until the midpoint of the fourth. Therefore the early 45 foot tall fourth root race types were not physical, but etherial. Since Blavatsky's etherial beings don't leave fossil records, this is not a teaching that can be scientifically substantiated or disproved at this time. I believe it was John van Mater, former librarian at the Pasadena TS, who had a collection of newspaper and journal articles about findings of skeletons of giants from time to time. There is never any follow up on these things--not even an exposure as a hoax. It seems that our scientific method tends to ignore discoveries that do not relate to the current theories. always thought that if I had unlimited time and wealth, it would be a lot of fun to track down these discoveries and find out what is really behind them. It has been a while since I've taken an anthropology class, but last I've heard, Richard Leaky hold the record for the oldest human remains, which date close to four million years. As I recall, these remains were of a young man who stood over six feet tall. I recall at the time some astonishment among some anthropologists who expected that the older human remains should show our ancestors to be smaller. >Certainly, since Blavatsky does not claim infallibility (nor do >the Mahatmas, as their letters went through students who might >not have gotten the words right, even if what the Mahatmas >intended to say was correct), #2 is a tempting possibility. The >postmodernists, of course, will hang on #1. But, not wishing to >unnecessarily multiply entities, I would soonest look at #3. I >have yet to find in the Primary Literature (and would love it if >someone could point it out to me) anything which definitely says >that the 4th root race were the PHYSICAL anscestors of the 5th >root race, nor anything saying that it was humanoid in form. It >certainly can be inferred from what was written, but it is not >stated outright. This leads one to think that, while monads >theoretically cannot be reincarnated into lower species, they >CAN be reincarnated into HIGHER species. Blavatsky does definitely say that the fifth root race is four to five million years old. So it is the only one that we know anything about from the fossil records. She also gives the date of some 18 million years ago that the human race took physical form (thus dating the midpoint of the 4RR). I think that one can then infer that fossil remains of the later fourth root race do exist (not the etherial 45 foot giants of the early period), and we probably have already collected them. But what would they look like? Certainly not human, but probably humanoid. During my anthropology days, I wondered if the ramapithicus might not have been the fossil remains of an early physicalized fourth root race branching. This is all speculation of course, but the dates fit the current theories. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:27:12 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Skeptics Message-ID: <5K34BQAwFaIzEwye@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33217BD7.611A@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky quotes and replies >> Bart, I see a residue of true believerism in your attempt to >> rescue SD anthropogenesis. >> Intellectual honesty, IMO, requires >> us to admit that it's just plain wrong from top to bottom. > > Or allegorical. > > Or (and my official position in Theosophical circles) that what she >received was the truth, but she had her own mindset to deal with, and >what we have received was the truth having passed through her own >filtering mechanisms. I agree very much with this view, which probably applies to all sincere esotericists and occultists. In retrospect, I have noticed on many an occasion the influence of my own mindset in communications received, resulting in an inevitable degree of distortion. There always remains a solid core of otherwise previously unknown or previously misunderstood information. This is surely true of later theosophical lunimaries such as CWL and Besant, and is perhaps more evident in their writings than it is in HPB, especially with CWL - and yet there is no doubt, so far as anyone taking a reasonably objective approach can tell (itself subject to the 'filtration' process!) that CWL and others were mostly 100% sincere in their beliefs ands interpretations of them. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:16:15 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Cyberfolk Message-ID: In message <33217A2E.7CB0@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >Will the 6th root race be cybernetic? An interesting if incomplete question, Bart. It would be very interesting to read an explanation of your question in greater detail. The idea is worth pondering, whether such people arrive here as 6th root race progenitors, or just arrive anyway! Sincerely, Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 22:53:31 +0000 From: Alan Subject: CWL and K Message-ID: The following quote is from Mary Lutyens' book, ~Krishnamurti, The Years of Awakening~, p.32. [John Murray, London, 1975] It is of especial interest, as Mary Lutyens knew Leadbeater personally, and had been a pupil of his in Sydney, Australia. AB. --------------- (1909) "Leadbeater now prevailed on Narianiah to allow the boys to eat at the 'Dharmashala', a new kitchen-dining-room built specially for Mrs Besant and a few privileged friends, where the food, cooked and served by Brahmins, was better and less highly spiced than at home. Leadbeater was also preparing for the boys a room in the Headquarters building for them to move into when Mrs Besant returned to Adyar. He had no intention of allowing them to go back to their father even when the new house was ready for occupation. He might have allowed Nitya to go back but Krishna refused to be parted from this little brother on whom he depended so much. "There was frequent friction between Narianiah and Leadbeater, who had no patience with orthodox Hindu sentiments and put down to selfishness the father's natural reluctance to allow his sons to be removed altogether from his influence. Leadbeater was quite ruthless; he was coarse in many ways, rude - especially to women, though never to Mrs Besant - and had no hesitation in swearing. He had doubtless learnt from Madame Blavatsky that such behaviour was not inconsistent with holiness, she herself being an extremely coarse woman much given to swearing. There was never a natural affinity between Leadbeater and Krishna, who was so gentle and whose Brahmin fastidiousness was often shocked by this hearty Englishman, just as Leadbeater was shocked by orthodox Hindu practices." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:39:39 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: [Fwd: $1,094,000 Therapeutic Touch Challenge] Message-Id: <199703081655.LAA156034@mime4.prodigy.com> > Subject: $1,094,000 Therapeutic Touch Challenge -- [ From: Robert J. Glickman * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Expanded recipient data: To: CSICOP Editor \ CompuServe: (73562.3030) To: Donbaldino \ America On-Line: (DonBaldino) To: Gene Emery \ PRODIGY: (gene.emery) To: James Randi \ CompuServe: (76702.3507) To: Lisafoulke \ America On-Line: (Lisafoulke) To: Marilee Tolen \ America On-Line: (cxc777) To: Pat Glickman* \ America On-Line: (pglickman) To: Patrick Staudt \ America On-Line: (gol10er) To: Robert J. Glickman \ PRODIGY: (WJKH96A) Press Release March 8,1997 The $1,094,000 Therapeutic Touch Challenge! The James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF), Philadelphia Area Nurses and Skeptics Alliance (PANSA) and PBS's Scientific American Frontiers are jointly conducting a test of Therapeutic Touch. The award of $1,094, 000 is fully guaranteed by the James Randi Educational Foundation of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. The testing will be supervised and videotaped by Scientific American Frontiers for a program to be broadcast in November of this year. In the Nursing profession, Therapeutic Touch (TT) is known as an energy- based healing system. According to the TT hypothesis, the human body radiates an energy field 4-8 inches from the skin. The practitioners are supposedly able to feel, assess, and correct abnormalities in this field. They claim that they do this simply by waving their hands over the recipients without ever actually touching them. Since the time of its inception, no one has actually proved that this field exists. In a previous test held on November 8, 1996, a TT practitioner had failed to prove that she was able to feel an energy field. However, she is just one of over 40,000 active practitioners who claim to have this amazing talent. In the spirit of good Science and good Nursing, it is time to show that at least one TT practitioner has the ability to feel this field. The test will be conducted at: The JREF Building in Ft Lauderdale Florida on June 2, 3 &4. The test will include the use of a fiberglass construct that has two sleeves that allows the insertion of a subject's arms. This construct will be placed on a table and covered with a simple sheet. There will be three stages to the test using the same basic format. This format will be based on a random coin-flip which will determine whether the right or left arm is inserted into the construct. The TT practitioner will then assess the energy emanating from the construct to determine which sleeve is occupied. In Part 1, a series of ten "open" trials will be done where there will be a clear view of which arm is occupying the construct. This will establish the TT practitioner's ability to feel the field and become comfortable with the format. In Part 2, a curtain will be drawn to bar the TT practitioner from seeing which arm is in the construct. A series of twenty double-blinded random trials will be performed. A score of 15 or greater will be considered a positive result and will allow that practitioner to advance to Part 3. Part 3 is to be done the following day using the same format as Part 2. A score of 20 out of 20 in Part 3 will win the $1,097,000 award. Scientific American Frontiers is an objective 3rd party unaffiliated with either skeptics groups or proponents of TT. They will be the official judges for this test. The integrity of the nursing profession is important. Thus, it is important that the TT concept be understood and utilized to its fullest potential. Inquiries for information and registration will be taken starting March 16, 1997. Contact Bob Glickman RN, President of PANSA, Philadelphia Area Nurses & Skeptics Alliance, PO Box 21970, Philadelphia, PA 19124. (215 ) 533-4677. Or contact the James Randi Educational Foundation, 201 SE Davie Boulevard, Fort Lauderdale FL 33316-1815. (954) 467-1112 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:38:19 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re to Bart Message-ID: <199703092000.PAA11037@NetGSI.com> Bart: >This leads one to think that, while monads theoretically >cannot be reincarnated into lower species, they CAN be >reincarnated into HIGHER species. Your posting is intriguing, Bart. But, first off, "monads" don't reincarnate into anything. While I think I understand what you mean, your still wrong if you think that the Ego can't express itself in lower life forms. How do you think the lower life forms got there? Evolution is circular not linear. Otherwise, you argue some good points. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 97 12:13:28 -0800 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: Skeptics Message-ID: <199703092014.MAA22684@scv3.apple.com> >Bart, I see a residue of true believerism in your attempt to >rescue SD anthropogenesis. Intellectual honesty, IMO, requires >us to admit that it's just plain wrong from top to bottom. >That doesn't mean HPB didn't really get it from some esoteric >traditional source. Nor that there might be tidbits of truth >in the scheme. But as a picture of where humanity was in >evolutionary terms 10,000, 100,000, a million or 18 million >years ago, it's hopeless and unsalvageable. Or, conversely, >contemporary science is hopelessly and unsalvageably astray. Hi Paul, One way to engage material like this is as fiction. Fiction, of course, has its own quality of truth but is not meant to be engaged on a literalistic level, or even necessarily as allegory. Blavatsky was the daughter of a successful novelist and no mean storyteller herself, publishing a variety of weird tales as well as the largely fictionalized "Caves and Jungles". While she did present "The Secret Doctrine" in a literal mode, that should not mean that we are bound to interpret it that way ourselves. I believe that Blavatsky saw truth and fiction as close members of the same continuum, and felt free to move easily from one to the other. Another way to engage material like this without getting caught in a struggle about whether it's literally true or not is to treat it as case study, that is, as a record of the mental process of a particular mystic. In this case we can easily see it as an answer to the ontological void created by new findings on the age of the earth that left Western culture bereft of a creation story and so of a self-definition. The particular visions involved are also interesting as a case study of the imagistic experiences of a person with an unusual talent for astral work. We could look at figures in her visions as dream characters, rearrangements of known characters from the ordinary worlds, attempts to grapple with the process of the non-human giving rise to the human, and so on. Either of these approaches admits the obvious -- this is not really how people evolved -- while still managing to derive some advance in understanding from the material, and treating it with respect on its proper plane. Tim Maroney From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:24:56 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Skeptics Message-ID: <199703092024.MAA09171@palrel1.hp.com> Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Or (and my official position in Theosophical circles) that what she > received was the truth, but she had her own mindset to deal with, and > what we have received was the truth having passed through her own > filtering mechanisms. For example, in the country of the blind, a person > gains sight for one day. How does he describe color to his countrymen? A nice analogy. HPB used scientific language to try to explain spiritual phenomena. 19th century science, plus her own inadequate understanding of it, contributed to some of the statements that look ridiculous by today's standards. Tim Maroney wrote: > You gave one good example. Another is an odd disdain for the law of > gravity, repeatedly insisting that the solar system was held in its > orbits by a magnetic motor effect. This appeared in both the Mahatma > letters and the Secret Doctrine. Another one of the Mahatma letters also > has a completely farcical "refutation" of the idea of potential energy. I > had wondered how modern Theosophists came to terms with these scientific > mistakes and I appreciate your comments on the area. Behind any physical mechanism of a physical phenomenon is a teleological idea or force. There must be an intelligence behind the outward manifestation of planets grouping together in a solar system. Astrology is one attempt to describe this intelligence. HPB's pseudo-scientific language is another. If HPB and the Mahatma's better acquainted themselves with science, they might have given a more apt description of the spiritual laws at work. But then again, spending one's time characterizing the outward behavior of gross matter does mean less time for studying the spiritual ideas "pulling the strings" of gross matter. Kind of like trying to deduce the character of an architect from studying the hinges, beams and cabinetry of the building constructed from his plans. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 15:23:44 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Science and the MLs Message-ID: <199703092029.PAA12016@NetGSI.com> Tim: >You gave one good example. Another is an odd disdain for the law of >gravity, repeatedly insisting that the solar system was held in its >orbits by a magnetic motor effect. This appeared in both the Mahatma >letters and the Secret Doctrine. Another one of the Mahatma letters also >has a completely farcical "refutation" of the idea of potential energy. I >had wondered how modern Theosophists came to terms with these scientific >mistakes and I appreciate your comments on the area. Actually, Einstein also had an odd disdain for the law of gravity as taught by Newton. Your thoughts here are interesting. Could you possibly find some quotes or references for me please. I have been unable to find any real errors in the MLs as to science, and they did make one significant prediction--that some stars will be found by sound before they are seen visually. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 15:16:45 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Comments on the SD Message-ID: <199703092029.PAA12012@NetGSI.com> Bart: >The point was to show that >there are other species that are capable of holding monads slightly less >evolved than humans (elephants also come to mind), and that I could find >nothing in the primary literature that states that such trans-species >reincarnation, at least from a lower species to a higher species, does >not take place. I don't believe that monads evolve at all, but rather their expressions do. And, every single dust mote and grain of sand is the expression of a monad. Elephants (and cats) are only "slightly less evolved" in the area of technical intelligence. Man excells in technology, but has little else over the animals except perhaps self-awareness, which in some ways is more of a curse than a blessing. The primary literature (SD) says that monads expressing themselves as animals could move up to mankind only until the midpoint of the 4th Round, our current Round and some millions of years ago, at which time the door shut for them for the rest of this manvantara. Now, I am not so sure that I can accept this per se, but perhaps it is only true for averages? The SD also says that reincarnation never goes backwards, only forwards evolutionary-speaking. This idea is heartening to the human mind, which likes to see itself as the epitomy of evolutionary development, but flies in the face of Tibetan Buddhism, which is supposed to be one of the Sources of the SD. Tibetan Buddhism says that we can come back as an animal. The Dali Lama once said that he hoped to return as a fly. But, as Eldon has said many times, Theosophy is not Buddhism... Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 16:46:56 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: CSICOP Message-ID: <33232FD0.595A@sprynet.com> Tim Maroney wrote: > > >CSICOP is somewhat tarnished by a religious mission; the major members > >are fundamentalist atheists (consider atheism to be a matter of fact > >rather than opinion, anybody who believes in any form of divinity should > >be committed to an insane asylum, etc.). > I have never seen any statement from any member of CSICOP to the effect > that believers should be committed to insane asylums. This seems like a > malicious and defamatory statement about the group. Please substantiate > it or withdraw it. Thank you. I overstated it. The statements merely point to the insanity of believers, not what should be done with them. If you are unaware of THOSE statements, then I will have to do a little research (probably the easiest way is to email the members of the group still living, and ask them for an appropriate quote). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 16:51:26 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Cyberfolk Message-ID: <332330DE.3FA9@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <33217A2E.7CB0@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >Will the 6th root race be cybernetic? > > An interesting if incomplete question, Bart. It would be very > interesting to read an explanation of your question in greater detail. > The idea is worth pondering, whether such people arrive here as 6th root > race progenitors, or just arrive anyway! I see two main possibilities. One is the development of a electronic brain capable of being the host of a monad. The second is through the cybernetic expansion of our own brains (note, for example, the "lie-detector" type control that creates a mentally controlled virtual joystic for the computer). Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 16:58:29 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Comments on the SD Message-ID: <33233285.5F09@sprynet.com> Jerry Schueler wrote: > I don't believe that monads evolve at all, but rather their expressions do. > And, every single dust mote and grain of sand is the expression of > a monad. Elephants (and cats) are only "slightly less evolved" in the > area of technical intelligence. Man excells in technology, but has little > else over the animals except perhaps self-awareness, which in some > ways is more of a curse than a blessing. I think a definition of a monad is in order. I consider it to be a measure of consciousness characterized by self-awareness. Interesting that you point out the curse/blessing aspects of self-awareness; think of the curse/blessing aspects of God's message to Adam and Eve when they left the Garden of Eden, and consider the eating of the Tree of Knowledge the acceptance of self-awareness. > The primary literature (SD) says that monads expressing themselves > as animals could move up to mankind only until the midpoint of the > 4th Round, our current Round and some millions of years ago, at > which time the door shut for them for the rest of this manvantara. > Now, I am not so sure that I can accept this per se, but perhaps it > is only true for averages? I recall that when I read that, I saw an alternate interpretation of that section. I will have to re-read it to find out why. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 23:16:43 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Cyberfolk Message-ID: In message <332330DE.3FA9@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes and quotes >Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: >> >> In message <33217A2E.7CB0@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky >> writes >> >Will the 6th root race be cybernetic? >> >> An interesting if incomplete question, Bart. It would be very >> interesting to read an explanation of your question in greater detail. >> The idea is worth pondering, whether such people arrive here as 6th root >> race progenitors, or just arrive anyway! > > I see two main possibilities. One is the development of a electronic >brain capable of being the host of a monad. In which case the B-movies are not far out :-) > The second is through the >cybernetic expansion of our own brains (note, for example, the >"lie-detector" type control that creates a mentally controlled virtual >joystic for the computer). > > Bart Lidofsky This seems a more likely possibility. Might it not be that the facility already exists in existing human brains, but has not yet been tapped into or developed? Mediums such as HPB could themselves be among the first "arrivals" of such humans. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 21:47:05 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: CWL and K Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970310034705.0071c644@mail.eden.com> In a recent book, Mary Lutyens writes (which is very interesting to ponder): "And he (K) never "presented" himself as being celibate. According to the tenets of Leadbeater-Theosophy, celibacy was essential for any aspirant to the Path of Discipleship but K broke away entirely from Theosophy and its tenets in 1929 and thereafter often spoke publicly "agains" celibacy. Here are a few quotations from his published talks to prove this point: 'So-called holy men have maintained that you cannot come near God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.' And again: 'I think we should understand what love and chastity are. The vow of chastity is not chatity at all, for below the words the craving goes on and trying to suppress it in different ways, religious or otherwise, is a form of ugliness which, it its very essence, is unchaste. The chastity of the monk, with his vows and denials, is essentially worldliness which is unchaste. All forms of resistance build a wall of separateness which turns life into a battlefield; and so life becomes not chaste at all'. And yet again; 'To deny sex is another form of brutality; it is there, it is a fact. When we are intellectual slaves, endlessly repeating what others have said, when we are following, obeying, imitating, then a whole avenue of life is closed; when action is merely a mechanical repetition and not a free movement, then there is no release; when there is this incessant urge to fulfil, to be, then we are emotionally thwarted, there is blockage. So sex becomes the one issue which is our very own, which is not second-hand. And in the act of sex there is a forgetting of oneself, one's problems and one's fears. In that act there is no self at all.'" MKR At 06:08 PM 3/9/97 -0500, Alan wrote to theos-roots and ti-l: > > >The following quote is from Mary Lutyens' book, >~Krishnamurti, The Years of Awakening~, p.32. >[John Murray, London, 1975] > >It is of especial interest, as Mary Lutyens knew Leadbeater >personally, and had been a pupil of his in Sydney, Australia. > >AB. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 18:27:42 -0500 From: Gilbert Arnold Subject: THEOS-ROOTS digest 272 -Reply Message-ID: Hi, I've been trying to subscribe to the lists but have only succeded in subscribing to the digest. How do I get on the lists ? Blessings, +Gilbert Gilbert Arnold (Most Rev.) Bishop, Church of Antioch-canada From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:05:30 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: CWL and K Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970310040530.00712f18@mail.eden.com> The subject, is highly timely. In the biography of CWL titled "The Elder Brother" by Gregory Tillett, I found the following: "To Mary Lutyens, when told about this biography and asked for his comments, he said simply: "Leadbeater was evil", and refused to discuss the matter further beyond the comment that he found even thinking of him, or hearing his name, distasteful." The above is based on the correspondence from Mary Lutyens to Tillett and interview with her in London in August 1979. The above is all the more significant because Mary Lutyens knew Leadbeater personally, and had been a pupil of his in Sydney, Australia. MKR At 06:08 PM 3/9/97 -0500, Alan wrote on theos-roots and ti-l: > > >The following quote is from Mary Lutyens' book, >~Krishnamurti, The Years of Awakening~, p.32. >[John Murray, London, 1975] > >It is of especial interest, as Mary Lutyens knew Leadbeater >personally, and had been a pupil of his in Sydney, Australia. > >AB. > >--------------- > >(1909) > >"Leadbeater now prevailed on Narianiah to allow the boys to >eat at the 'Dharmashala', a new kitchen-dining-room built specially >for Mrs Besant and a few privileged friends, where the food, >cooked and served by Brahmins, was better and less highly spiced >than at home. Leadbeater was also preparing for the boys a room >in the Headquarters building for them to move into when Mrs >Besant returned to Adyar. He had no intention of allowing them >to go back to their father even when the new house was ready >for occupation. He might have allowed Nitya to go back but >Krishna refused to be parted from this little brother on whom he >depended so much. > >"There was frequent friction between Narianiah and Leadbeater, >who had no patience with orthodox Hindu sentiments and put >down to selfishness the father's natural reluctance to allow his >sons to be removed altogether from his influence. Leadbeater >was quite ruthless; he was coarse in many ways, rude - especially >to women, though never to Mrs Besant - and had no hesitation >in swearing. He had doubtless learnt from Madame Blavatsky >that such behaviour was not inconsistent with holiness, she herself >being an extremely coarse woman much given to swearing. There >was never a natural affinity between Leadbeater and Krishna, who >was so gentle and whose Brahmin fastidiousness was often >shocked by this hearty Englishman, just as Leadbeater was >shocked by orthodox Hindu practices." > >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:10:54 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: On-line Publications Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970310141054.00683b04@mail.eden.com> The recent online publication of ML to APS by TUP is a great landmark. All publishing outfits have a vested interest in *not* publishing anything on line, because of the fear that it would cut into their printed versions. TUP having taken the decision is remarkable in that it simply shows that the driving force behind the decision is to make the Theosophical classic accessible to everyone in the world. This at a time and place (USA) where one thinks of charging a fee (called a fee or price or a suggested donation or whatever) is all the more telling. Usually you see $ signs everwhere. One only has to wonder what would have happened to TS if HPB had a suggested donation or fee for anyone who dropped in to her home (which was open to anyone interested) in NY to join discussions in the early days of TS. Another thing to be noticed is that Internet is a great leveller. It puts a small organization/association of persons with no formal funding on par with others with lots of money in the bank -- compare TI with TSA for example. With copyrights of all the Theosophical classics having expired, the arrival of Internet is timely. Soon we will see all the classics available on Internet for free to anyone rich and poor being treated on equal footing. I suppose it is in the plans of Those behind the Theosophical Movement to make the invaluable knowledge accessible to more people around the world for free. Soon there will come a time when lodges, centers etc may not at all be critical for the spreading of Theosophy and in turn ordinary human beings using its message of philanthropy for helping fellow human beings, which is after all fundamental driving objective when the Real Founders chartered TS. My 2 cents worth. Your mileage and direction may vary. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 06:47:44 -0800 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: CSICOP Message-ID: <199703101446.GAA16448@scv1.apple.com> >> I have never seen any statement from any member of CSICOP to the effect >> that believers should be committed to insane asylums. > I overstated it. The statements merely point to the insanity of >believers, not what should be done with them. Ah. Yes, I've seen a few articles in the Skeptical Inquirer which purported to be about the psychology of belief, but which were in fact simply ways to ridicule believers from behind a loose facade of scientific objectivity. I found these articles a rather offensive misapplication of psychology. Tim Maroney From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:21:35 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Celibacy and K Message-ID: <199703101822.NAA14463@NetGSI.com> >According to the >tenets of Leadbeater-Theosophy, celibacy was essential for any aspirant to >the Path of Discipleship but K broke away entirely from Theosophy and its >tenets in 1929 and thereafter often spoke publicly "agains" celibacy. Thanks for this posting. My estimation of K just went up a few notches. Celibacy, like psycism, should be natural and never forced. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:23:51 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Monads Message-ID: <199703101824.NAA14530@NetGSI.com> Bart: > I think a definition of a monad is in order. I consider it to be a >measure of consciousness characterized by self-awareness. This is probably why I'm having difficulty in followiwng your thought. I look at monads per G de Purucker, who defined it as a consciousness-center which sends out a "ray" or self-manifestation into the 7 cosmic planes, while remaining itself in divinity. In this definition, every grain of sand, every atom, is a manifestation of a monad. The monad is always self-conscious, but its expressions in space-time may or may not be. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:51:28 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy and K Message-ID: <970310135127_-1506328609@emout06.mail.aol.com> Jerry, In a message dated 97-03-10 13:24:15 EST, you write: >Celibacy, like psycism, should be natural and never forced. > > Uh, one little difference. psychism is natural and celibacy isn't Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:36:47 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: CWL and K Message-ID: Doss wrote: In a recent book, Mary Lutyens writes (which is very interesting to ponder): "And he (K) never "presented" himself as being celibate. According to the tenets of Leadbeater-Theosophy, celibacy was essential for any aspirant to the Path of Discipleship but K broke away entirely from Theosophy and its tenets in 1929 and thereafter often spoke publicly "agains" celibacy. Here are a few quotations from his published talks to prove this point: 'So-called holy men have maintained that you cannot come near God if you indulge in sex, therefore they push it aside although they are eaten up with it. But by denying sexuality they put out their eyes and cut out their tongues for they deny the whole beauty of the earth. They have starved their hearts and minds; they are dehydrated human beings; they have banished beauty because beauty is associated with woman.' And again: 'I think we should understand what love and chastity are. The vow of chastity is not chatity at all, for below the words the craving goes on and trying to suppress it in different ways, religious or otherwise, is a form of ugliness which, it its very essence, is unchaste. The chastity of the monk, with his vows and denials, is essentially worldliness which is unchaste. All forms of resistance build a wall of separateness which turns life into a battlefield; and so life becomes not chaste at all'. And yet again; 'To deny sex is another form of brutality; it is there, it is a fact. When we are intellectual slaves, endlessly repeating what others have said, when we are following, obeying, imitating, then a whole avenue of life is closed; when action is merely a mechanical repetition and not a free movement, then there is no release; when there is this incessant urge to fulfil, to be, then we are emotionally thwarted, there is blockage. So sex becomes the one issue which is our very own, which is not second-hand. And in the act of sex there is a forgetting of oneself, one's problems and one's fears. In that act there is no self at all.'" MKR *********************** Thoa: Thank you for posting that. I wholeheartedly agree with that. That says in detail my gut feeling about the deviancy of denying a natural, necessary, and beautiful process, which is just as bad as using it in a degrading way. I'd like to say more, but have been swamped lately. Just enough time for reading the posts and a few seconds' worth of input. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:34:41 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: 6th Root Race Message-ID: Regarding the 6th root race, I was wrong in my prediction that men will develop ovaries, bear and raise children, and us women will be on a venus resort. With the development of the cloning technique, we women can procreate ourselves without men, and then the men will go to a mars resort. In fact, men will have to do a lot of begging just to get the eggs out of us. Hee Hee...can't let well enough alone. Back to my picture screen (and stay there!). Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:25:22 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: On-line Publications Message-ID: <3324B482.3EEC@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > With copyrights of all the Theosophical classics having expired, the > arrival of Internet is timely. The Internet, in one form or another, has been around for over 30 years. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:03:10 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Monads Message-ID: <+6F5tIA+EKJzEwYE@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199703101824.NAA14530@NetGSI.com>, Jerry Schueler writes >Bart: >> I think a definition of a monad is in order. I consider it to be a >>measure of consciousness characterized by self-awareness. > >This is probably why I'm having difficulty in followiwng your >thought. I look at monads per G de Purucker, who defined >it as a consciousness-center which sends out a "ray" or >self-manifestation into the 7 cosmic planes, while remaining >itself in divinity. In this definition, every grain of sand, every >atom, is a manifestation of a monad. The monad is always >self-conscious, but its expressions in space-time may or >may not be. > >Jerry S. >Member, TI > Interesting view, Jerry, and close to my own, which I find useful, as I have so far not read a single word written by G de P! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 19:52:17 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: On-line Publications Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970311015217.0070d978@mail.eden.com> At 08:30 PM 3/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> With copyrights of all the Theosophical classics having expired, the >> arrival of Internet is timely. > > The Internet, in one form or another, has been around for over 30 >years. > > Bart Lidofsky > You are right. Military and academics have been using Internet for a long time. It is only in the recent couple of years, that Internet has been accessible to the average person at an affordable cost and the widespread use by the public along with the graphic based tools capable of running on PCs. For example, in my city one can get unlimited use access to Internet for $10.00+tax per month, which was unthinkable 5 years ago. As I had indicated earlier, there is an apartment complex in town which offers free internet access for its tenants. I do not know if they provide or loan the computer too. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 23:34:32 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: On-line Book Ordering Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970312053432.0072dcc4@mail.eden.com> Hi Discount on-line book ordering is on the horizon. At this time www.amazon.com is the largest on-line book seller and I believe they discount anywhere between 20-30% on hardbacks and best sellers. Barnes & Noble and Borders are about to launch their www on-line ordering. Barnes & Noble is planning to offer 20% or more discount on all books. This would put them on par with such discounters in the US as Book Stop which offer 20% or more. I would be looking forward to the shoot out between these large outfits and we the consumers would be the beneficiaries. Thought I should share this new development in cyberspace. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 07:51:47 GMT From: dewberry@poboxes.com (Bee Brown) Subject: (fwd) NEW: HUXLEY-L - Discussions on human cloning and Aldous Huxley Message-ID: <332a5040.47153440@mail> Bee here, I thought some of you may be interested in this list re the clone discussions. On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:45:47 -0600, Juan Carlos Garelli wrote: >HUXLEY-L on listserv@maelstrom.stjohns.edu Aldus Huxley and Human Cloning > > HUXLEY-L is an unmoderated discussion list devoted to all aspects > pertaining to the works of the great English writer, Aldous > Huxley, particularly addressing his anticipation of modern > cloning techniques as depicted in his book Brave New World, and > the political manipulation such technology might entail. > > What is a clone? > > A clone is an organism, or group of organisms, derived from > another organism by an asexual (nonsexual) reproductive process. > The word has been applied to cells as well as to organisms, so > that a group of cells stemming from a single cell is also called a > clone. Usually the members of a clone are identical in their > inherited characteristics --- that is, in their genes --- except for > any differences caused by mutation. Identical twins, for example, who > originate by the division of a single fertilized egg, are members > of a clone; whereas nonidentical twins, who derive from two > separate fertilized eggs, are not. Besides the organisms known as > procaryotes (the bacteria and blue-green algae), a number of other > simple organisms such as most protozoans, many other algae, and > some yeasts, also reproduce by cloning, as do certain higher > organisms, for example, flatworms and plants such as the > dandelion. > > Through recent advances of genetic engineering, > scientists can isolate an individual gene (or group of genes) from > one organism and grow it in another organism belonging to a > different species. The species chosen as a recipient is usually > one that can reproduce asexually, such as a bacterium or yeast. > Thus it is able to produce a clone of organisms, or of cells, that > all contain the same foreign gene, or genes. Because bacteria, > yeasts, and other cultured cells can multiply rapidly, these > methods make possible the production of many copies of a > particular gene. The copies can then be isolated and used for the > purposes of study (for example, to investigate the chemical nature > and structure of the gene) or for the purposes of medicine and > commerce (for example, with a view to making large quantities of a > useful gene-product such as insulin, interferon, and growth > hormone). This technique is called cloning, because it uses > clones of organisms or cells. It has great economic and medical > potential and is the subject of active research. Identical-twin > animals may be produced by cloning as well. An embryo in the early > stage of development is removed from the uterus and split, then > each separate part is placed in a surrogate uterus. Mammals such > as mice and sheep have been produced in this way. > > Another development has been the discovery that a whole nucleus, > containing an entire set of chromosomes, can be taken from a cell > and injected into a fertilized egg whose own nucleus has been > removed. The division of the egg brings about the division of the > nucleus, and the descendant nuclei can, in their turn, be injected > into eggs. After several such transfers, the nuclei may become > capable of directing the development of the eggs into complete new > organisms genetically identical to the organism from which the > original nucleus was taken. This cloning technique is thus, in > theory, capable of producing large numbers of genetically > identical individuals. Such experiments have been successfully > carried out with frogs and mice, but so far the cloning of higher > mammals beyond an early embryonic stage has not been possible. > > To subscribe to HUXLEY-L, send mail to > > LISTSERV@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU with the message: > > SUBscribe HUXLEY-L yourfullname > > For example: SUBscribe HUXLEY-L Maria Kerrington > > Owner: Juan Carlos Garelli > > ------- >Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer >send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST >in the body. > > Member Theosophy NZ, T.I. Life is not a problem to be solved; it is a mystery to be lived. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 97 9:42:33 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Re: Skeptics Message-ID: <199703121442.JAA24324@leo.vsla.edu> According to Tim Maroney: > > Hi Paul, > > One way to engage material like this is as fiction. Fiction, of course, > has its own quality of truth but is not meant to be engaged on a > literalistic level, or even necessarily as allegory. Blavatsky was the > daughter of a successful novelist and no mean storyteller herself, > publishing a variety of weird tales as well as the largely fictionalized > "Caves and Jungles". While she did present "The Secret Doctrine" in a > literal mode, that should not mean that we are bound to interpret it that > way ourselves. I believe that Blavatsky saw truth and fiction as close > members of the same continuum, and felt free to move easily from one to > the other. Interesting you should have written that just as I was finishing a revision of the Cayce ms. and subtitling it "The Readings, Truth, and Fiction." In some dimensions, truth and fiction are opposites, but in other ways fiction is a vehicle for truth. > Another way to engage material like this without getting caught in a > struggle about whether it's literally true or not is to treat it as case > study, that is, as a record of the mental process of a particular mystic. > In this case we can easily see it as an answer to the ontological void > created by new findings on the age of the earth that left Western culture > bereft of a creation story and so of a self-definition. The particular > visions involved are also interesting as a case study of the imagistic > experiences of a person with an unusual talent for astral work. We could > look at figures in her visions as dream characters, rearrangements of > known characters from the ordinary worlds, attempts to grapple with the > process of the non-human giving rise to the human, and so on. > > Either of these approaches admits the obvious -- this is not really how > people evolved -- while still managing to derive some advance in > understanding from the material, and treating it with respect on its > proper plane. I would like to see Theosophical texts studied in the way you suggest, but don't expect to see it happen anytime soon. Cheers, Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:10:18 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Eudora Light Freeware Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970312131018.007a2c10@mail.eden.com> Hi I downloaded and used the latest release of Eudora Light and is very smooth and impressive. The filter capability which allows you to sort incoming msgs into mailboxes is very useful. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 01:46:54 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Attempts to Kill Krishnamurti Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970313074654.00684bf0@mail.eden.com> In a recent book by Mary Lutyens, there is a very interesting revelation. Truth seems to be stranger than fiction. The incidents took place before 1950-51. One has only to wonder what would have happened if Krishnamurti was killed prematurely. I was exposed to K only in 1965. ============================================= Luyens writes: "He (K) said that twice she (Rosalind) had tried to kill him -- once to push him off a station platform and the other time she hit him on the head with a spanner. When I asked credulously why she would want to kill the goose that laid their golden eggs, he replied, "Rajagopal thought he could do it just as well himself", meaning that Rajagopal could take his place. .. It is not difficult to imagine Rajagopal, who was in sole charge of all the KWINC assets, setting up a pseudo Theosophical-Krishnamurti center at Ojai with himself as the chief attraction." ==================================== PS: Rajagopal was the Business Manager of K and Rosalind was Rajagopal's wife. Rajagopal controlled the KWINC trust with vast assets until it was dissolved as a result of a lawsuit brought against him and the other trustees by the Attorney General of CA and the trustees of the new Krishnamurti Foundation. The law suit spawned other lawsuits and dragged on for 18 years and was finally settled through the courts after K died. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:04:17 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: On-line Book Ordering Message-ID: <3327FB51.707F@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > Discount on-line book ordering is on the horizon. At this time > www.amazon.com is the largest on-line book seller and I believe they > discount anywhere between 20-30% on hardbacks and best sellers. > > Barnes & Noble and Borders are about to launch their www on-line ordering. > Barnes & Noble is planning to offer 20% or more discount on all books. This > would put them on par with such discounters in the US as Book Stop which > offer 20% or more. > > I would be looking forward to the shoot out between these large outfits and > we the consumers would be the beneficiaries. Will the consumers be the beneficiaries? When the big discounters, with their access to better access to new books and bulk discounts, so they can sell books at what it costs for the small, specialty bookstores, they will drive the small bookstores out of business (just about the only esoteric bookstores left in New York City are those which are part of a larger organization, such as the Quest Bookshop, Open Center, and East/West Books). But the national discounters are much more vunerable to attacks by the religious right. If this trend succeeds, prepare to find no outlet in which to buy books like THE SECRET DOCTRINE or THE MAHATMA LETTERS. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:08:51 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Eudora Light Freeware Message-ID: <3327FC63.74F8@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Hi > > I downloaded and used the latest release of Eudora Light and is very smooth > and impressive. The filter capability which allows you to sort incoming > msgs into mailboxes is very useful. What I could REALLY use is a mail reader that allows me to switch between POP's. Between my 3 email accounts, the NYTS email account, the email accounts my clients provides me, and the email account my company gives me, it is a REAL pain sorting out all the email. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:55:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Eudora Light Freeware Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970313165530.00badaf4@mail.eden.com> At 08:16 AM 3/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >M K Ramadoss wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> I downloaded and used the latest release of Eudora Light and is very smooth >> and impressive. The filter capability which allows you to sort incoming >> msgs into mailboxes is very useful. > > What I could REALLY use is a mail reader that allows me to switch >between POP's. Between my 3 email accounts, the NYTS email account, the >email accounts my clients provides me, and the email account my company >gives me, it is a REAL pain sorting out all the email. > > Bart Lidofsky > I think Eudora Pro 3.? may meet your needs. There is version you can download and use it for 30 days, I think. Please check www.eudora.com. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:54:48 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: On-line Book Ordering Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970313165448.00baf858@mail.eden.com> At 08:08 AM 3/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> Discount on-line book ordering is on the horizon. At this time >> www.amazon.com is the largest on-line book seller and I believe they >> discount anywhere between 20-30% on hardbacks and best sellers. >> >> Barnes & Noble and Borders are about to launch their www on-line ordering. >> Barnes & Noble is planning to offer 20% or more discount on all books. This >> would put them on par with such discounters in the US as Book Stop which >> offer 20% or more. >> >> I would be looking forward to the shoot out between these large outfits and >> we the consumers would be the beneficiaries. > > Will the consumers be the beneficiaries? When the big discounters, with >their access to better access to new books and bulk discounts, so they >can sell books at what it costs for the small, specialty bookstores, >they will drive the small bookstores out of business (just about the >only esoteric bookstores left in New York City are those which are part >of a larger organization, such as the Quest Bookshop, Open Center, and >East/West Books). But the national discounters are much more vunerable >to attacks by the religious right. > > If this trend succeeds, prepare to find no outlet in which to buy books >like THE SECRET DOCTRINE or THE MAHATMA LETTERS. > > Bart Lidofsky > I was at the Borders two days ago. I found two sets of SD, one the 3 vol published by TPH and the other 2 vol by TUP and there were many other books by both publishers. I have frequently used a large discounter The Book Stop to buy my books at a discount of at least 20% which is good even on special order items. So we will wait and see. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:21:19 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Celibacy Message-ID: <199703131824.NAA12897@NetGSI.com> >Uh, one little difference. psychism is natural and celibacy isn't > >Chuck the Heretic Too true. Nevertheless, the temporary need for celibacy comes to just about everyone at some point in their Path and when it does, it shouldn't be forced. Personally, I don't think it matters much if one is celibate or not. Its all in how one looks at it. I suspect celibacy is a phase that Candiates go through, and sooner or later will be outgrown. What I mean here is that it comes naturally with the feeling of impurty and the need for purification. Once that phase has been gotten through, it is no longer necessary. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:33:54 -0000 From: Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB Subject: RE: Eudora Light Freeware Message-ID: <01BC2FE5.82898C80@rvik-ppp-107.ismennt.is> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2FE5.82A1F680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bart, I have been using Microsoft Exchange 4.0 for some time now, and I like = it, especially after I downloaded two service packs from Microsoft, that = fixed some problems, If you go to the Microsoft Exchange homepage you can download the 5.0 = evaluation version for try. In Iceland Exchange comes with most new computer purchase (with Windows = 95). Einar M K Ramadoss wrote: >=20 > Hi >=20 > I downloaded and used the latest release of Eudora Light and is very = smooth > and impressive. The filter capability which allows you to sort = incoming > msgs into mailboxes is very useful. What I could REALLY use is a mail reader that allows me to switch between POP's. Between my 3 email accounts, the NYTS email account, the email accounts my clients provides me, and the email account my company gives me, it is a REAL pain sorting out all the email. 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Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 01:15:37 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Celibacy Message-ID: In message <199703131824.NAA12897@NetGSI.com>, Jerry Schueler writes >What I mean here is that >it comes naturally with the feeling of impurty and the need >for purification. Once that phase has been gotten through, >it is no longer necessary. Don't want to sound "holier than thou" Jerry, but i beg to differ. In my personal experience, celibacy arose when it was *necessary* for my work. "Purity" or the lack thereof didn't come into it. Sex was simply a nuisance impulse which interfered with my spiritual work at the time, and so it had to go. Mostly it has stayed away, which I am pleased about, but I doubt whether celibacy is *required* in the natural occult order of things, as my understanding of 'purification' has more to do with one's inner devlopmental state, and has more to do with being honest with oneself than anything else. 'Purity' has too many religious or church associations in much of its usage. As an example, I would regard anything which obstructed the natural production of sperm or ova as a potential 'impurity' in the biological system, probably in need of a physician's attention, not an occultist's. Just my two penn'orth. Alan :-/ --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:19:52 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Louis Claude de Saint-Martin Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970314021952.00bfaaf0@mail.eden.com> A friend of mine recently asked me to see what information I can find on Louis Claude de Saint-Martin. He came under the influence of Pasqualis a Theosophist and appears to have written several books and seems to be a mystic. His book "Unknown Philosopher's Teaching" is said to represent the best of French Illuminism and Theosophism, had a discrete but profound influence on many 19th century writers such as Chateaubriand, Joseph de Maistre, and Balzac in the religious masonic circles, as well as on the German romantics including Franz von Baader. Any one familiar with Saint-Martin? mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 01:18:42 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Attempts to Kill Krishnamurti Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970313074654.00684bf0@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >In a recent book by Mary Lutyens, there is a very interesting revelation. WHICH recent book, please Doss? > Alan >Truth seems to be stranger than fiction. > >The incidents took place before 1950-51. One has only to wonder what would >have happened if Krishnamurti was killed prematurely. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:11:01 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Celibacy Message-ID: <970314001059_-2107734910@emout01.mail.aol.com> Jerry, In a message dated 97-03-13 13:32:03 EST, you write: >I suspect celibacy is a phase that Candiates go through, and >sooner or later will be outgrown. What I mean here is that >it comes naturally with the feeling of impurty and the need >for purification. Once that phase has been gotten through, >it is no longer necessary. > > I would suspect that feelings of impurity are more the result of cultural conditioning rather than from any purely spiritual cause. If one comes out of a culture where such matters are irrelevant, it would be a surprise if the feeling would occur at all. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 23:55:29 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Attempts to Kill Krishnamurti Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970313235529.0079f100@mail.eden.com> At 09:42 PM 3/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970313074654.00684bf0@mail.eden.com>, >ramadoss@eden.com writes >>In a recent book by Mary Lutyens, there is a very interesting revelation. > >WHICH recent book, please Doss? >> >Alan Krishnamurti & Rajagopals ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:11:16 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Krishnamurti's Comments on TS etc. Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970314001116.00794a80@mail.eden.com> Only in the recent past, interesting information has been trickling out on the various things about K and the long drawnout litigation with the Trustees who were to take care of the Trusts set up to help him to teach. During the course of this litigation, it appears that K did discuss with the trustees of the new K Trust - KFA, the subject of Theosophy and TS (Adyar). For whatever reason, the information has not yet come out. It would be very interesting to see what his views are. Knowing his past comments and the independent and fearless manner in which he always spoke, it is very possible that if and when the details are made known, it is very likely that his views may shock many of the TS partyliners (and others elitists who believe that they are closer to the Real Founders of TS.) For some of us, ordinary simple thinking rookie students of Theosophy, they may be very interesting. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:48:58 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: cloning Message-ID: <199703150304.WAA04115@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Bee, I'm glad you brought up the subject. I'm also glad you finally gave us your new address, because I've been wondering what's been happening to you. How are you doing in your new job at the new location? Re cloning ... I listened for a while to the hearing the Senate had on this subject one or two days ago. One of the people who came before the committee was the Scott who cloned the sheep, and there were several American scientists, and scientific ethicists. Everyone who spoke, Senator or scientist, was against human cloning for a variety of reasons. However, the scientists were saying that the laws had to be carefully written, because, cloning human cells etc., ie parts of human beings, was sometimes beneficial. For instance, just now a bone marrow transplant has to come from a donor. There is a possiblity that in the future some of the ill person's own cells could be cloned, and then transplanted, which would have the advantage of that the patient wouldn't reject his own cells. They also mentioned several diseases which they thought might profit from cloning research (I forget the technical name it's called), as for instance Parkinson's. Seems to me, It's like every other new invention. We've got to walk a very fine line between usefulness and ethics. I'd like to hear what some others on this list think about this subject. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 19:04:51 -0600 From: S Subject: Bing Escudero's Program Schedule Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970315190451.00797eb0@mail.stic.net> LECTURE/DISCUSSION PROGRAMS Bing Escudero, the well known Lecturer will deliver a series of lectures and participate in discussions in San Francisco Bay Area in USA during the week of March 17, 1997. Following is the schedule. Please contact the individual(s) listed for confirmation of the individual items, locations and timings. ================================================================= March 17 Oakland TS Lodge Monday Subject: Summa Sophia 7.00PM Contact: Thomas Marconi - (510) 595-1139 or Nancy Conley (510) 610-7700 March 18 Alameda College Tuesday Subject: TBA 5.30PM Contact: Prof. Alex Papas - (510) 841-7864 March 20 Place: TBA Thursday Subject: 3 Outpourings, Chains, Rounds & Races 7.00PM Contact: Thomas Marconi - (510) 595-1139 or Nancy Conley (510) 610-7700 March 21 Place: California Institute of Integral Studies Friday Subject: Essential Unity of World Religions Time: TBA Contact: Brad Doyle (415) 924-9090 March 23 Place: Oakland TS Lodge Sunday Subject: Mahatma Letters Time: TBA Contact: Nancy Conley (510) 610-7700 PS: For any information on any of the above programs, Thomas Marconi (510-595-1139) or N Conley (510-610-7700) can be contacted. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:24:09 -0500 (EST) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Human cloning Message-ID: <970315112407_-1271246524@emout18.mail.aol.com> Society seems always to have had an innate fear of change and particularly change that is not well understood. Back in the late '30s and early '40s, for example, there were a number of scientists (albeit a minority) who had serious reservations about developing nuclear weapons. As history has shown, their views did not prevail. This may prove to be true for cloning (particularly human cloning) as well. People can argue and obstruct to their hearts' content but new technologies have a way of developing a life of their own. That old adage: "lead, follow ... or get the ##### out of the way" is probably applicable here. All of the above having been said, it is to be hoped that mankind will soon accept the premise that cloning technologies should be pursued --- cautiously! Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:31:11 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: online publications Message-ID: <199703151746.MAA09785@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Doss, I would like to know why you insist on tearing down Leadbeater. Would you like me to start in on Krishnamurti? Because, even though I like some of Krishnamurti's ideas, I've heard it said that towards the latter part of his life Krishnaj became very negative and destructive. Nuff said, for now. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:34:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: CWL & Krishnamurti Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970315123432.0079ae50@mail.eden.com> At 12:47 PM 3/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Doss, > >I would like to know why you insist on tearing down Leadbeater. Would you >like me to start in on Krishnamurti? Because, even though I like some of >Krishnamurti's ideas, I've heard it said that towards the latter part of his >life Krishnaj became very negative and destructive. Nuff said, for now. > >Liesel > > Dear Liesel: Glad that you brought up the subject. The way look upon Leadbeater or Krishnamurti or anybody else is this. I see personal lives and what they have written as two different items. If their writings are useful to me or anyone else, then I would use them and am grateful for them. If there are facts about their personal lives that becomes known, then so be it. Sometimes we may not like what we see. But it is their life and not my life. I would welcome you or anyone else wants to start on Krishnamurti. I would very much like to know what you have heard or known about Krishnamurti becoming very negative and destructive towards the latter part of his life. Please post what you know or heard. Thanks. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 20:52:12 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: Concerning the number of souls in evolution: Message-ID: <19970315205212141.AAA195@ras111.vortex.is> Attention to: Jos Koetsier Cape Town RSA Are you referring to an article in a magazine, that you have at hand.? If so, - is it possible to have a copy of this article.? Or can you send this article over to the list.? Best wishes, Sveinn Freyr ----- --------- -------- >Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:34:08 GMT+2 >From: "JOS KOETSIER" >Concerning the number of souls in evolution: Unfortunately I don't >have a source but I got a different number from a South Moluccan >Theosophist in 1966. He quoted 60.000 million souls which were >looking for incarnation on Planet Earth, which is about 12 times >the numbers of souls which are in incarnation now. >I'll ask people down here whether they know the source and I'll let >you know. unless somebody else on the net has the answer in one of >the next bulletins. Does your '600.000 million' only refer to Planet >Earth or are incarnations on other globes also included? >With kind regards >Yours Jos Koetsier Cape Town RSA From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 02:05:38 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Attempts to Kill Krishnamurti Message-ID: <3QVbnAAyPgKzEwDX@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <3.0.1.32.19970313235529.0079f100@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >>>In a recent book by Mary Lutyens, there is a very interesting revelation. >> >>WHICH recent book, please Doss? >>> >>Alan > > Krishnamurti & Rajagopals > >..mkr > Many thanks, Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 01:34:11 +0000 From: Alan Subject: From Russia with Love Message-ID: Greetings to all! I have uploded two files forwarded by Uri Macnev from Kay Kiatz to the website. Click on the DIRECTORY link and then click on KIATZ to access these articles extracted from 'The Theosophist' Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:45:03 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: CWL and Krishnamurti Message-ID: <199703161600.LAA22978@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Doss, If it's all the same to you, I'm not going to take up your challenge, and start another 3 month long useless fight. One thing I learned from Leadbeater, and Serge King says the same thing, it doesn't help anyone to say negative things about people. Serge explains it this way. Your Unconscious doesn't notice the difference between something you say or think about yourself or somebody else. So if you say something nice, about anyone, including yourself, it glows and grows in strength, if you say something derogatory, the Unconscious weakens. At his workshop several years ago, he called up 2 people. He told them both, in turn, to think of something nice, & say, "I like that". Then he arm wrestled them, and they remained pretty firm. Then he told them to think of something derogatory and say "I don't like that". When he arm wrestled them after that, he won easily. This is an experiment you can easily duplicate yourself. For this reason I'm not interested much in saying nasty things about anyone, and I wish you'd stop too. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:23:45 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: CWL and Krishnamurti Message-ID: Dear Liesel: Whenever I posted something, it is always some new information that has come out. Usually of a very important nature and usually to bring it to the attention of the subscribers. Once we keep in mind that everybody is human and great people have great strengths and great defects, then it is easy to see them in total perspective. Before theos-lists were setup, there were only two ways in which information was available. One is thru the official magazines of organizations and the other is thru word of mouth. Both had its limitations and the officials who control the former saw to it that only the official party line is presented. What else do you expect. After I got on theos-lists, I was aware of a lot of information which was unavailable from any other source. What I learnt in 2 years were not known to me for several decades. So I feel that any information, positive, negative or informative, that may help some one should be made available openly and freely using the cyberspace. The days of secrecy and control of information is going to end for the good. This is my humble opinion. Your mileage and direction may vary. ...doss PS: On an informative matter, I posted the info on Seven Virgins from Java (?) (from Tillett's book), and did you see no one had anything to add. Many saw this information for the first time. So I welcome anyone to share anything they care to post here. On Sun, 16 Mar 1997, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > Dear Doss, > > If it's all the same to you, I'm not going to take up your challenge, and > start another 3 month long useless fight. One thing I learned from > Leadbeater, and Serge King says the same thing, it doesn't help anyone to > say negative things about people. Serge explains it this way. Your > Unconscious doesn't notice the difference between something you say or think > about yourself or somebody else. So if you say something nice, about anyone, > including yourself, it glows and grows in strength, if you say something > derogatory, the Unconscious weakens. At his workshop several years ago, he > called up 2 people. He told them both, in turn, to think of something nice, > & say, "I like that". Then he arm wrestled them, and they remained pretty > firm. Then he told them to think of something derogatory and say "I don't > like that". When he arm wrestled them after that, he won easily. This is an > experiment you can easily duplicate yourself. For this reason I'm not > interested much in saying nasty things about anyone, and I wish you'd stop too. > > > Liesel > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:42:38 -0700 (MST) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Human cloning Message-ID: <199703162242.PAA22345@snowden.micron.net> Dennis wrote: > Society seems always to have had an innate fear of change and particularly >change that is not well understood. Back in the late '30s and early '40s, >for >example, there were a number of scientists (albeit a minority) who had >serious >reservations about developing nuclear weapons. As history has shown, their >views did not prevail. Hmmm, perhaps their views should have prevailed. We've yet to figure out a way to rid ourselves of those pesky things - now that humanity recognizes how, for way too long, they have deprived us of precious slumber. >This may prove to be true for cloning (particularly >human >cloning) as well. It may; but, god, I hope not. > People can argue and obstruct to their hearts' content but >new technologies have a way of developing a life of their own. If this conclusion is true, who is really in control - humanity or technology? >That old >adage: >"lead, follow ... or get the ##### out of the way" is probably applicable >here. Whoa! Definitely disagree here. According to the above statement, those who would like careful deliberation - analytical, ethical, philosophical - would be considered the folks who should "get the ##### out of the way." > All of the above having been said, it is to be hoped that mankind will >soon >accept the premise that cloning technologies should be pursued --- >cautiously! Humanity has a responsibility to pause and take time with whopping issues such as cloning. A few of the zillion questions: What about the rights of those who are cloned? Will they be equal to "normally-conceived" humans? Is it ethical to clone someone for organs? How would one go about doing that - wouldn't the clones have to be void of brain? If they aren't, I can picture them raising quite a ruckus when it comes time for them to donate. What reason would a woman have for carrying a clone, if it's not going to be her child? How will society treat those who have been cloned? Are parents who want clones of themselves really having children for the 'right' reason? Who will have access to cloning technology - only the rich? Won't that give those with money even more power? What reason could there be for cloning a human? Isn't this going to really mess with the gene pool - what about the diversity factor? Isn't our diversity the reason humans have been able to survive? Who "owns" the clone? And on and on. . . According to the scientists who cloned the monkeys and sweet Dolly (the sheep) their failure rate was extremely high. They tried over two hundred times before they were successful - with some female carriers of the cloned eggs suffering fatal side effects. What about the animal carriers of the cloned eggs? Do we have the right to treat animals this way? Is cloning animals according to laboratory medical/scientific needs and experiments ethical? Can you clone an animal without pain receptors or emotional needs - certainly necessary for a content "lab animal." I do not hope that scientists plunge freely into cloning "soon" - I fear it may mean we haven't given the issue enough thought. I'm all for technological advances; I think it is our destiny. Cloning holds undreamed of positive possibilities. And I do not think it is possible to avoid going farther with cloning - we've found a new frontier - humanity will explore it. But perhaps now, contrary to the lack of philosophical debate regarding nuclear weapons, we may realize that all new technology must have a philosophy developed along with it. Yes, I think, this time, humanity does understand. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:06:25 -0600 From: Senzar Subject: Bing Escudero's Program Schedule Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970316220625.0079c100@mail.stic.net> Updated Schedule: (Please note correct telephone number of Nancy Conley) - March 16, 1997 ============================================ LECTURE/DISCUSSION PROGRAMS Bing Escudero, the well known Lecturer will deliver a series of lectures and participate in discussions in San Francisco Bay Area in USA during the week of March 17, 1997. Following is the schedule. Please contact the individual(s) listed for confirmation of the individual items, locations and timings. ================================================================= March 17 Oakland TS Lodge Monday Subject: Summa Sophia 7.00PM Contact: Thomas Marconi - (510) 595-1139 or Nancy Conley (510) 601-7700 March 18 Alameda College Tuesday Subject: TBA 5.30PM Contact: Prof. Alex Papas - (510) 841-7864 March 20 Place: TBA Thursday Subject: 3 Outpourings, Chains, Rounds & Races 7.00PM Contact: Thomas Marconi - (510) 595-1139 or Nancy Conley (510) 601-7700 March 21 Place: California Institute of Integral Studies Friday Subject: Essential Unity of World Religions Time: TBA Contact: Brad Doyle (415) 924-9090 March 23 Place: Oakland TS Lodge Sunday Subject: Mahatma Letters Time: TBA Contact: Nancy Conley (510) 601-7700 PS: For any information on any of the above programs, Thomas Marconi (510-595-1139) or N Conley (510-601-7700) can be contacted. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:43:09 GMT+2 From: "JOS KOETSIER" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 951 concerning 60 billion souls Message-ID: <284FE17B71@education.uwc.ac.za> > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 20:52:12 +0000 > From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) > To: theos-l@vnet.net > Subject: Concerning the number of souls in evolution: > Message-ID: <19970315205212141.AAA195@ras111.vortex.is> > > Attention to: Jos Koetsier Cape Town RSA > > Are you referring to an article in a magazine, that you have at hand.? > > If so, - is it possible to have a copy of this article.? > Or can you send this article over to the list.? > > Best wishes, > > Sveinn Freyr > > ----- --------- -------- > >Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:34:08 GMT+2 > >From: "JOS KOETSIER" > > >Concerning the number of souls in evolution: Unfortunately I don't > >have a source but I got a different number from a South Moluccan > >Theosophist in 1966. He quoted 60.000 million souls which were > >looking for incarnation on Planet Earth, which is about 12 times > >the numbers of souls which are in incarnation now. > >I'll ask people down here whether they know the source and I'll let > >you know. unless somebody else on the net has the answer in one of > >the next bulletins. Does your '600.000 million' only refer to Planet > >Earth or are incarnations on other globes also included? > > >With kind regards > >Yours Jos Koetsier Cape Town RSA > Bellville 17.3.1997 Hello Svein, Unfortunately I still have no reference. I asked members of our lodge in Cape Town yesterday evening. But nobody knew the source. I will still keep on trying. As I said I only heard it from a theosophist from Indonesia (South Moluccans) and he told we this figure in 1966. I hope somebody on the net will have a clue. Yours Jos Koetsier From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 03:38:20 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 951 concerning 60 billion souls Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970317093820.0072bb10@mail.eden.com> At 02:43 AM 3/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 20:52:12 +0000 >> From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) >> To: theos-l@vnet.net >> Subject: Concerning the number of souls in evolution: >> Message-ID: <19970315205212141.AAA195@ras111.vortex.is> >> >> Attention to: Jos Koetsier Cape Town RSA >> >> Are you referring to an article in a magazine, that you have at hand.? >> >> If so, - is it possible to have a copy of this article.? >> Or can you send this article over to the list.? >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Sveinn Freyr >> >> ----- --------- -------- >> >Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:34:08 GMT+2 >> >From: "JOS KOETSIER" >> >> >Concerning the number of souls in evolution: Unfortunately I don't >> >have a source but I got a different number from a South Moluccan >> >Theosophist in 1966. He quoted 60.000 million souls which were >> >looking for incarnation on Planet Earth, which is about 12 times >> >the numbers of souls which are in incarnation now. >> >I'll ask people down here whether they know the source and I'll let >> >you know. unless somebody else on the net has the answer in one of >> >the next bulletins. Does your '600.000 million' only refer to Planet >> >Earth or are incarnations on other globes also included? >> >> >With kind regards >> >Yours Jos Koetsier Cape Town RSA >> >Bellville 17.3.1997 > >Hello Svein, > >Unfortunately I still have no reference. I asked members of our >lodge in Cape Town yesterday evening. But nobody knew the source. I >will still keep on trying. >As I said I only heard it from a theosophist from Indonesia (South >Moluccans) and he told we this figure in 1966. I hope somebody on the >net will have a clue. > >Yours >Jos Koetsier Hi I inherited a book on Theosophy in which my dad had made a note (around 1954) about 600,000 million souls in evolution. I am still looking to locate the source. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:19:00 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: concerning 60 billion souls Message-ID: <332D44C4.79C8@sprynet.com> ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > I inherited a book on Theosophy in which my dad had made a note (around > 1954) about 600,000 million souls in evolution. I am still looking to locate > the source. While conservation of matter and energy almost certainly holds for consciousness, as well, figuring out how many souls there are is like figuring out how many drops of water there are in the ocean; note that the size of a drop is not even well-defined. Also, note the possibility that souls do not stay intact in between incarnations; Krishnamurti seemed to indicate that possibility. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:02:01 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: concerning 60 billion souls Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > ramadoss@eden.com wrote: > > I inherited a book on Theosophy in which my dad had made a note (around > > 1954) about 600,000 million souls in evolution. I am still looking to locate > > the source. > > While conservation of matter and energy almost certainly holds for > consciousness, as well, figuring out how many souls there are is like > figuring out how many drops of water there are in the ocean; note that > the size of a drop is not even well-defined. Also, note the possibility > that souls do not stay intact in between incarnations; Krishnamurti > seemed to indicate that possibility. > > Bart Lidofsky > Bart ... I would agree ... and add even a further possibility - I think we must always remember that as often complex as some of the ML and Secret Doctrine schematics of evolution seem, they really are still but the outermost crust ... the general rules ... and when dealing with something as complex as life and consciousness itself, we must assume thousands upon thousands of exceptions to every "rule" - e.g., we have, on earth, a physical form that has finally evolved a central nervous system sensitive enough to register some frequency bands of the spiritual realm, and perhaps there are many *different* types of souls that may choose to utilize such a thing for relatively short periods of time - beings, or groups of beings that are not necessarily undergoing the human curriculum of education (with its multiple lives over 7 root races) but may instead come for some particular piece of education, service, or temporary experience that lasts no more than a life, or a few lives, etc. I suspect the system is fluid, rather than static, and even if such a number was arrived upon, I see no reason to assume that number to remain constant. Regards, -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:10:20 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: TS Motto Message-ID: <199703171813.NAA28611@NetGSI.com> Here is an interesting quote that I recently came across: "There is no Dharma higher than Truth" (Na hi satyat paro dharmah) The Mahanirvana Tantra (The Great Liberation). Trans by Arthur Avalon (Sir John Woodroffe). 4th Ed. Ganesh & Co. (Madras) 1963. Chapter 4, page 76 Not only does this quote sound familiar, but it is especially interesting to see that comes from a tantra. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:09:11 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: CWL and Krinshanj Message-ID: <199703171924.OAA20619@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Whenever I posted something, it is always some new information that has >come out. Usually of a very important nature and usually to bring it to >the attention of the subscribers. Dear Doss, What, pray tell, is the important information you are posting in this paragraph which throws mud on CWL? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:35:10 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: human cloning Message-ID: <199703171950.OAA04522@ultra1.dreamscape.com> a few remarks to ad to what Kym said (& quoted) Back in the late '30s and early '40s, >for >example, there were a number of scientists (albeit a minority) who had >serious >reservations about developing nuclear weapons. and my husband thought it was immoral to bring kids into the world under the threat of the atomic bomb. I'm glad I was able to dissuade him. Our 2 kids are the light of my life and were the light of his. Hmmm, perhaps their views should have prevailed. We've yet to figure out a way to rid ourselves of those pesky things - now that humanity recognizes how, for way too long, they have deprived us of precious slumber. I think we can't get rid "of those pesky things" anymore, but must learn to control them. We're on our way to accomplishing this. Total success would mean peace in the world, with no rogue nations, and that's a far way off. > People can argue and obstruct to their hearts' content but >new technologies have a way of developing a life of their own. They also just have a way of developing. I think human beings are programmed to be curious and explorative, and I don't think it's something we can stop. It's innate in all of us. What we can learn to do, though, is to handle our discoveries to our benefit, rather than to our destruction. That takes wisdom, savoir faire, psychological and ethical knowhow, (don't forget the ethical) and maybe the greatest power, Love. If this conclusion is true, who is really in control - humanity or technology? Good question. My contention, which I think is yours too, is that humanity *ought* to be in control, and had better acquire such control in record time. I don't think cloning is our last possibly noxious invention/discovery. Who knows what'll come next! > All of the above having been said, it is to be hoped that mankind will >soon >accept the premise that cloning technologies should be pursued --- >cautiously! Humanity has a responsibility to pause and take time with whopping issues such as cloning. A few of the zillion questions: What about the rights of those who are cloned? Will they be equal to "normally-conceived" humans? Is it ethical to clone someone for organs? How would one go about doing that - wouldn't the clones have to be void of brain? If they aren't, I can picture them raising quite a ruckus when it comes time for them to donate. What reason would a woman have for carrying a clone, if it's not going to be her child? How will society treat those who have been cloned? Are parents who want clones of themselves really having children for the 'right' reason? Who will have access to cloning technology - only the rich? Won't that give those with money even more power? What reason could there be for cloning a human? Isn't this going to really mess with the gene pool - what about the diversity factor? Isn't our diversity the reason humans have been able to survive? Who "owns" the clone? And on and on. . . According to the scientists who cloned the monkeys and sweet Dolly (the sheep) their failure rate was extremely high. They tried over two hundred times before they were successful - with some female carriers of the cloned eggs suffering fatal side effects. What about the animal carriers of the cloned eggs? Do we have the right to treat animals this way? Is cloning animals according to laboratory medical/scientific needs and experiments ethical? Can you clone an animal without pain receptors or emotional needs - certainly necessary for a content "lab animal." I do not hope that scientists plunge freely into cloning "soon" - I fear it may mean we haven't given the issue enough thought. I'm all for technological advances; I think it is our destiny. Cloning holds undreamed of positive possibilities. And I do not think it is possible to avoid going farther with cloning - we've found a new frontier - humanity will explore it. But perhaps now, contrary to the lack of philosophical debate regarding nuclear weapons, we may realize that all new technology must have a philosophy developed along with it. Yes, I think, this time, humanity does understand. Kym To your pragraph with questions, & to the idea of advancing cautiosuly, I have only one item to add; Has anyone yet thought of that the monkey and/or the sheep might develop all sorts of illnesses, known and unknown, as it ages? Has anyone thought of that this might happen with future clones, including human ones? Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:37:55 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: concerning 60 billion souls Message-ID: <970317145251_448381096@emout09.mail.aol.com> Besides, they have to wait until we make room for them to incarnate anyway. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:53:50 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: that vegetarian thing Message-ID: I also read in the newspaper an article on Jhoon Rhee, the Tae Kwon Do Grand Master. He stated that he is a "flexible vegetarian." That means that although his diet is mostly vegetable and fish, he will eat meat if he is a guest in someone's house who unknowingly served meat. I understand his thinking. In Asian tradition, it is rude to reject what is offered you. In the past, if I am a guest a someone's house, I will eat whatever they serve, no matter how exotic or bland. Hence, my predicament. Last weekend, I went to a BBQ at a friend of a friend's house. The main dish is nice juicy steak. I was told that it is very tasty and that I should try it. Although I declined, I felt guilty afterwards. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:54:36 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: CWL and Krishnamurti Message-ID: Doss wrote: >Whenever I posted something, it is always some new information that has >come out. Usually of a very important nature and usually to bring it to >the attention of the subscribers. Once we keep in mind that everybody is >human and great people have great strengths and great defects, then it is >easy to see them in total perspective. I agree with this, especially in the case of those who have decided to place themselves in a leadership position, and in particular spiritual leadership. A person in the position of making into law code of ethics for his/her followers should be prepared to have his/her life be an open book. With such a powerful status, it is only fair to the followers to know every aspect of that person's life that colors his/her choices. Keeping the group in ignorance of the negatives is another way of confining them from free thinking and personal decision. Liesel wrote: >One thing I learned from >Leadbeater, and Serge King says the same thing, it doesn't help anyone to >say negative things about people. Serge explains it this way. Your >Unconscious doesn't notice the difference between something you say or think >about yourself or somebody else. So if you say something nice, about anyone, >including yourself, it glows and grows in strength, if you say something >derogatory, the Unconscious weakens. In general, I agree with this. However, I think that the purpose of posting negative information regarding a leader differs greatly from the purpose of just spreading malicious gossip. Imagine how many horrendous deeds in the past could have been prevented if the community had known all aspects of a leader's motivation, all details of the deeds, and all negative opinions. That is why the first thing to go in a dictatorship is freedom of speech. Another thing that I think should be freely implemented is allowing the community to be aware of ex-cons with a dangerous past in their midst, in particular child molesters, rapists, and murderers. BTW, last weekend, while I was pushing my stylus pen, I saw on PBS a very interesting lecture by Dr. Andrew Wild (?). He was stating that negative thinking can have a detrimental effect on your health. He said that Western medicine is too focused on thinking of the patient as sick instead of as being healthy. He cited one example. There was one woman in his group who has a knack of finding 4-leave clovers. Show her any grassy patch and she will find 4-leave clovers. Her secret is that she always starts out with the premise that there are 4-leave clovers in that patch. When she showed the people in the group how to replace their no 4-leave clover premise to there is, people were starting to find the clovers. As an aside, because of the reason that the unconscious does not differentiate between what you're thinking and what is actual, I believe that it is more important than ever for children to be protected from sexual and violent imagery and words. This is not to say that we should deny freedom of speech. I value that greatly. However, the responsibility should be with the parents, the school system, and the media rating system. While strong topics should be allowed broadcast, there should be a system of letting parents and the school be aware of its content. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 22:43:56 -0000 From: Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB Subject: RE: TS Motto Message-ID: <01BC3324.D6959DE0@rvik-ppp-103.ismennt.is> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC3324.D6959DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi there all: This subject could and should invite to some discussion here I believe the motto of the TS was "borrowed" from a family motto of some = Indian family (Prince?), and it was translated from "Satya Nasti Paro = Dharma" - There is no dharma higher than truth. It seems to me that translating Dharma as "Religion" is a rather clumsy = and somewhat arrogant towards the religions. On the other hand Dharma is = not easy to translate, but as a compromise - and a good phrase on its = own - would be: "There is no doctrine higher than truth".=20 This is what Theosophy is all about, isn't it? - Getting away from all = the "Doctrines" to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the = TRUTH! I would suggest that we return back to the original (Sanskrit/Pail?) = version when around the emblem (same in every country or language), and = refer to a broad translation or explanation in a "commentary" in our = introductory texts. What do you think? Love and light, Einar. > From: Jerry Schueler[SMTP:gschueler@netgsi.com] > Sent: m=E1nudagur 17. mars 1997 13:20 > Subject: TS Motto Here is an interesting quote that I recently came across: "There is no Dharma higher than Truth" (Na hi satyat paro dharmah) The Mahanirvana Tantra (The Great Liberation). Trans by Arthur Avalon (Sir John Woodroffe). 4th Ed. Ganesh & Co. (Madras) 1963. Chapter 4, page 76 Not only does this quote sound familiar, but it is especially interesting to see that comes from a tantra. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:48:13 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Re: From Russia with Love Message-ID: <199703171903.OAA08611@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Alan, Please describer to me once more how you get into (y)our website. I tried it once, when you put in my stuff, & didn't get it. Thanks. Hope you're ok. You're not writing too much, or maybe I just think so, because I'm not able to look in on the e-mail every day. On the days I go for dialysis I get home pretty well shot. But on the other days, things are improving. They say that eventually I'll be able to go about my business as I had been doing. During my 3 hours on the machine, I've been listening to tapes, mostly my own, which are reproductions of the Serge King workshop I attended. I'm still learning more from them. I'd also borrowed some tapes from Wheaton. Of the 4 so far, 2 are too simplistic, one is about runes & interesting, & the other I'll tell you about tomorrow. Not a very good batting average. For my 75th birthday party looks like we'll be around 40 people. I don't know How well I'll be able to cope with that many people, but I'm sure it'll be fun. I invited people I really like, all except 2, which I had to include .. family, friends, staff. MY boys are paying. That's different. No, Bob also paid the bill for the luncheon whne my mother died. Well, if he can afford to have Ben's mole removed for $1500 (minus whatever his insurance paid), he can aford $400.- for my part, no $200.- they're going to share. Besides, I don't care, I want to have a real nice party. Is everybody around you having big upheavals too, in their lives just now? I'm not, but 3 people around me are, & some are good, some awful. Take care, Liesel ..................................................................... >Greetings to all! > >I have uploded two files forwarded by Uri Macnev from Kay Kiatz to the >website. > >Click on the DIRECTORY link and then click on KIATZ to access these >articles extracted from 'The Theosophist' > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:52:47 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Re: From Russia with Love Message-ID: <199703171908.OAA11175@ultra1.dreamscape.com> PS. His e-mail name is Kay Ziatz, with a Z. His full name is Konstantin Zaitzev. lfd .................................................................. >Greetings to all! > >I have uploded two files forwarded by Uri Macnev from Kay Kiatz to the >website. > >Click on the DIRECTORY link and then click on KIATZ to access these >articles extracted from 'The Theosophist' > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk > > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 00:45:47 +0000 From: Alan Subject: Re: From Russia with Love Message-ID: In message <199703171908.OAA11175@ultra1.dreamscape.com>, "liesel f. deutsch" writes >PS. His e-mail name is Kay Ziatz, with a Z. His full name is Konstantin Zaitzev. Ooops! I will amend the info and directory name > >lfd >.................................................................. > > > > >>Greetings to all! >> >>I have uploded two files forwarded by Uri Macnev from Kay Kiatz to the >>website. >> >>Click on the DIRECTORY link and then click on KIATZ to access these >>articles extracted from 'The Theosophist' Correction: click on ZAITZEV >> >>Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: 17 Mar 97 23:14:06 EST From: "Ronald A. Banister" <70402.2301@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Virginia Beach Meeting Message-ID: <970318041406_70402.2301_JHD41-1@CompuServe.COM> This Saturday Ray Grasse will be giving a lecture on "Signs, Symbols and Synchronicity" in Virginia Beach. Ray Grasse is Assistant Editor and Advertising Director for the Quest magazine. This lecture will be held at the Ocean Key Resort at 424 Atlantic Avenue, Virginia Beach, VA in the Hospitality Room on the 9th floor. For information call Eloise Smith: 919-534-1971 or 919-441-8484. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:48:11 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: CWL and Krinshanj Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970317204811.00bb33e4@mail.eden.com> At 02:26 PM 3/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Whenever I posted something, it is always some new information that has >>come out. Usually of a very important nature and usually to bring it to >>the attention of the subscribers. > > >Dear Doss, > >What, pray tell, is the important information you are posting in this >paragraph which throws mud on CWL? > >Liesel > Dear Liesel I do not know what you are referring to? Can you clarify? ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:55:23 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: concerning 60 billion souls Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970317205523.00bec134@mail.eden.com> At 08:21 AM 3/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com wrote: >> I inherited a book on Theosophy in which my dad had made a note (around >> 1954) about 600,000 million souls in evolution. I am still looking to locate >> the source. > > While conservation of matter and energy almost certainly holds for >consciousness, as well, figuring out how many souls there are is like >figuring out how many drops of water there are in the ocean; note that >the size of a drop is not even well-defined. Also, note the possibility >that souls do not stay intact in between incarnations; Krishnamurti >seemed to indicate that possibility. > > Bart Lidofsky > I agree with your msg. However, the question that I was trying to answer was while this figure has been mentioned, and quoted, I am trying to find out is it based on some writing or whatever. It appears that this may have been mentioned in one of the old eastern literature. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:57:19 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS Motto Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970317205719.0072f748@mail.eden.com> At 01:20 PM 3/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >Here is an interesting quote that I recently came >across: > >"There is no Dharma higher than Truth" >(Na hi satyat paro dharmah) > >The Mahanirvana Tantra (The Great Liberation). >Trans by Arthur Avalon (Sir John Woodroffe). >4th Ed. Ganesh & Co. (Madras) 1963. >Chapter 4, page 76 > >Not only does this quote sound familiar, >but it is especially interesting to see >that comes from a tantra. > >Jerry S. >Member, TI Glad you noted the statement. It is, I believe the family motto of the Maharaja of Benares and was later adopted by TS. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:54:56 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS Motto Message-ID: <970317145509_247306667@emout09.mail.aol.com> Jerry, In a message dated 97-03-17 13:30:24 EST, you write: >Not only does this quote sound familiar, >but it is especially interesting to see >that comes from a tantra. > > We always knew they stole it from somewhere. Of course the restating created some confusion as all know that religion and truth are mutually exclusive concepts. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:29:07 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: TS Motto Message-ID: <332DFDF3.1328@sprynet.com> Jerry Schueler wrote: > > Here is an interesting quote that I recently came > across: > > "There is no Dharma higher than Truth" > (Na hi satyat paro dharmah) > > The Mahanirvana Tantra (The Great Liberation). > Trans by Arthur Avalon (Sir John Woodroffe). > 4th Ed. Ganesh & Co. (Madras) 1963. > Chapter 4, page 76 > > Not only does this quote sound familiar, > but it is especially interesting to see > that comes from a tantra. Read the introduction to the Secret Doctrine, where Blavatsky explains where she got it from. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:10:01 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: CWL and Krishnaj Message-ID: <199703180425.XAA22923@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Thoa Tran, you wrote >A person in the position of making into law code of ethics for >his/her followers should be prepared to have his/her life be an open book. I don't disagree with that Thoa. But I want you to know, that a long time before you joined theos-l, I had a very nasty battle with several of the men re CWL. Without going into any of it again, I want you to know Thoa, that my Teacher who died 2 years ago, was CWL's pupil, and he told me in no uncertain terms that all these nasty allegations re CWL were untrue. There are statements by him and other pupils of CWL to the same effect. Some of them are in the archives at Wheaton. I think that when Smallet, or whatever his name is, wrote his book none of the people who really knew CWL would have anything much to do with him. I think some of them tried and it misfired. Certain people didn't have anything good to say about CWL, and apparently they're the ones who talked to him. The ones I know, who loved and revered CWL, as do most Adyar Theosophists, say that all this accusations are very false. Now I guess it's up to you to figure out, if you can at this distance in time, who's telling the truth, and who's lying, or else imagining wrong interpretations on happenings. Just for instance, S. says disparagingly in his book that he got in touch with the Outer Head in Adyar, and never got an answer. That made him angry, more or less. Well, if he'd known anything at all about the inner workings of the Society, as he should have known in order to write an adequate book about CWL, he would have known that the ES is an organization whose members aren't allowed to acknowledge that they are members, so of course the Outer Head didn't acknowledge his letter. He *did* have an interview with Joy Mills, who's so high up in the organisation I'm sure she's an important ES member, but he didn't realize that. I forget what the outcome of that was. If I remember correctly, she didn't tell him very much. I'm really disgusted that people keep on saying disparaging things about CWL from time to time on this list. I don't think it's right to do this to any of the theosophical leaders, whether he belongs to your own faction or to someone else's. I think theos-l should be a meeting place of all the splinter groups of Theosophists, and a place where we show respect for each other's differences. Seems to me that Theosophists especially should be leaders in respecting people's differences. We're the ones who preach the "brotherhood" of "man". Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 08:00:00 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: CWL and Krishnaj Message-ID: Dear Liesel: I agree with most of what you have stated. But at the same time, you may recall that I posted a msg some time ago inquiring if anyone has seen any of the specific facts and assertions that Tillett made has been disputed. I have not seen any response so far. I am not a fan of Tillett. I have been greatly benefitted by CWLs writings. At the same time I should say that one of the people Tillett talked to was one Balford Clarke who worked closely with CWL for many years and he was also a resident of Adyar for many many years and a well respected person. In early 1970s when he was 87, I had the previlege of his visiting my home for a snack. This along with certain statements made in Ernest Wood's book "Is this Theosophy?" and the documented comment of Krishnamurti, I would not simply dismiss everything that we may find in Tillett's book or elsewhere. I keep an open mind and also keep in view that great people have great defects. I hope this is another perspective of the situation. MKR PS: Peter Michel is writing a book on CWL. I hope to find out if he finds new materials to dispute any of the major assertions made against CWL in Tillett's book and in other published material. On Mon, 17 Mar 1997, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > Thoa Tran, you wrote > > >A person in the position of making into law code of ethics for > >his/her followers should be prepared to have his/her life be an open book. > > I don't disagree with that Thoa. But I want you to know, that a long time > before you joined theos-l, I had a very nasty battle with several of the men > re CWL. Without going into any of it again, I want you to know Thoa, that my > Teacher who died 2 years ago, was CWL's pupil, and he told me in no > uncertain terms that all these nasty allegations re CWL were untrue. There > are statements by him and other pupils of CWL to the same effect. Some of > them are in the archives at Wheaton. > > I think that when Smallet, or whatever his name is, wrote his book none of > the people who really knew CWL would have anything much to do with him. I > think some of them tried and it misfired. Certain people didn't have > anything good to say about CWL, and apparently they're the ones who talked > to him. The ones I know, who loved and revered CWL, as do most Adyar > Theosophists, say that all this accusations are very false. Now I guess it's > up to you to figure out, if you can at this distance in time, who's telling > the truth, and who's lying, or else imagining wrong interpretations on > happenings. > Just for instance, S. says disparagingly in his book that he got in touch > with the Outer Head in Adyar, and never got an answer. That made him angry, > more or less. Well, if he'd known anything at all about the inner workings > of the Society, as he should have known in order to write an adequate book > about CWL, he would have known that the ES is an organization whose members > aren't allowed to acknowledge that they are members, so of course the Outer > Head didn't acknowledge his letter. He *did* have an interview with Joy > Mills, who's so high up in the organisation I'm sure she's an important ES > member, but he didn't realize that. I forget what the outcome of that was. > If I remember correctly, she didn't tell him very much. > > I'm really disgusted that people keep on saying disparaging things about CWL > from time to time on this list. I don't think it's right to do this to any > of the theosophical leaders, whether he belongs to your own faction or to > someone else's. I think theos-l should be a meeting place of all the > splinter groups of Theosophists, and a place where we show respect for each > other's differences. Seems to me that Theosophists especially should be > leaders in respecting people's differences. We're the ones who preach the > "brotherhood" of "man". > > Liesel > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:53:37 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Happy Birthday! Message-ID: * * * * * * *** *** *** * * * **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ****WWWWWWW****WWWWWWW**** WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW W W W W W W |W W W W W W| | W W W W W W | | WW WW WW | | O O O | | | | | | | WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP HAPPY BIRTHDAY, LIESEL! HAVE A FUN PARTY! Regards, Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:26:39 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: CWL and Krishnamurti Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970318182639.0069d50c@mail.eden.com> Dear Liesel & Thoa: I am glad that we are discussing this issue. I want to add my 2 cents worth. 1. When anyone is prominent or powerful or influential or occupy any important position in any institution - public or private, they past and present comes under public scrutiny and I think rightfully so. If one is not prominent nor powerful nor influential nor occupy important position, no one cares about their past or present. 2. CWL and K, though did not formally occupy any official position, were very influential in the lives of thousands of people all over the world over a long period of time. So it is right that bright light is focused on what they were involved in. 3. As I have always said, great people have great achievements and also great defects. 4. IMHO, in CWL's case the two greatest contributions of his are his discovery of K and the enormous writings he has published. Due credit is due to him and we all owe our gratitude as well. 4. When facts come out, many time there may be things we may not like nor do we want to know about. But no one should be surprised. No one is perfect and no one is sacred. 5. Usually there is lionizing of individuals and many don't want to see or hear anything which does not present their "hero" or "heroine" in the most favorable light. If one does not want to see any thing negative, then it is their choice. 6. Great individuals are capable of openly admitting their defects as well as admitting any of their activities which the "common man/woman" may not consider it as favorable or good. An example of this was H S Olcott -- a man of very great personal integrity -- admitting in writing how in 1874 he was a man of bars and women. 7. It is the *little* people who try to hide and would not openly admit their drawbacks and mistakes. They try to cover it by using their cleverness/sharpness because they are afraid of their own public image. These individuals may be very influential or very learned and may have held high offices and may have been a member of TS or other organizations for zillions of years. But their immaturity shows up by their coverups. The common man/woman sees thru the mask over a period of time. 8. IMHO, we are all mature enough to see the full picture and clearly think for ourself and come to our own conclusions based on all available information. 9. When I focus on the basic fundamental tenets/object of TS, I treat personalities as human beings like all of us and not lionize anyone. We may individually be benefitted to a lesser or greater extent from anyone and we should be grateful for it. That does not mean that I should ignore any other information that I come across. 10. Theos-l is the only place left where we can discuss all of these things without the fear of censorship or controlled dissemination or information. I hope it continues and users expand. MKR PS: Some time ago I accidentally found out that a well known person was sued by the Attorney General of California, along with other trustees, several years ago as one of the Trustees of a Charitable Trust for mismanagement and other things. This trust had world wide holdings of real estate and a lot of donated money as well. Later on this person, along with other trustees, sued for multi-million dollars one of the world reknowned spiritual speaker who has affected many TS members around the world. Most people do not know of this background. If this person is just an ordinary member, who cares. But if it is a person who occupies well known public position, is it not a fair game especially when it may affect the public organization now and in future. Should we take an osterich like attitude and say we do not care. At 11:26 PM 3/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >Thoa Tran, you wrote > >>A person in the position of making into law code of ethics for >>his/her followers should be prepared to have his/her life be an open book. > >I don't disagree with that Thoa. But I want you to know, that a long time >before you joined theos-l, I had a very nasty battle with several of the men >re CWL. Without going into any of it again, I want you to know Thoa, that my >Teacher who died 2 years ago, was CWL's pupil, and he told me in no >uncertain terms that all these nasty allegations re CWL were untrue. There >are statements by him and other pupils of CWL to the same effect. Some of >them are in the archives at Wheaton. > >I think that when Smallet, or whatever his name is, wrote his book none of >the people who really knew CWL would have anything much to do with him. I >think some of them tried and it misfired. Certain people didn't have >anything good to say about CWL, and apparently they're the ones who talked >to him. The ones I know, who loved and revered CWL, as do most Adyar >Theosophists, say that all this accusations are very false. Now I guess it's >up to you to figure out, if you can at this distance in time, who's telling >the truth, and who's lying, or else imagining wrong interpretations on >happenings. >Just for instance, S. says disparagingly in his book that he got in touch >with the Outer Head in Adyar, and never got an answer. That made him angry, >more or less. Well, if he'd known anything at all about the inner workings >of the Society, as he should have known in order to write an adequate book >about CWL, he would have known that the ES is an organization whose members >aren't allowed to acknowledge that they are members, so of course the Outer >Head didn't acknowledge his letter. He *did* have an interview with Joy >Mills, who's so high up in the organisation I'm sure she's an important ES >member, but he didn't realize that. I forget what the outcome of that was. >If I remember correctly, she didn't tell him very much. > >I'm really disgusted that people keep on saying disparaging things about CWL >from time to time on this list. I don't think it's right to do this to any >of the theosophical leaders, whether he belongs to your own faction or to >someone else's. I think theos-l should be a meeting place of all the >splinter groups of Theosophists, and a place where we show respect for each >other's differences. Seems to me that Theosophists especially should be >leaders in respecting people's differences. We're the ones who preach the >"brotherhood" of "man". > >Liesel > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:33:16 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Power of Suggestion Message-ID: <199703182034.PAA13112@NetGSI.com> Thoa: > I saw on PBS a very >interesting lecture by Dr. Andrew Wild (?). He was stating that negative >thinking can have a detrimental effect on your health. As a former Christian Scientist, I have to agree. Back in the 50s, some Christian Science friends of my family had a remote to the sound of their tv so they could turn off the commercials, especially those for medicines. They swore that hearing about headaches and backaches and colds all day long on commercials would actually give them to you. Modern pscyhological studies suggest that there is some truth to this. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 14:23:52 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: CWL and Krishnaji Message-ID: <9703182223.AA24818@toto.csustan.edu> As Liesel has indicated, conflicting opinions concerning CWL and Krishnamurti have been extant for quite some time. Rather, most of the history of the TS has centered upon controversies concerning these two leaders. Those who present the critical sides of these issues typically produce documents to backup their arguments, while those representing the loyal sides produce testimonials by those who have met these leaders or who have known them through their books. In the case of CWL, the loyalists also often allude to the existence of private material, and that if it were made public, would disprove all of the adverse documentation. I believe that Doss' view that "great people have great defects", inadvertently defines the bases of the conflict. This position of tentatively accepting the adverse documentation and yet maintaining loyalty to these two leaders because of the benefits their writings have brought to him, acknowledges both the human failings of these leaders as well as their contributions. I also think this position is a step forward because when loyalty became the highest value in the TS, it was the beginning of its downfall. The TS was dedicated to the pursuit of truth, a quest that must be of primary consideration to the implementation of all value systems. With the above in mind, I feel an obligation to comment on some of the statements I picked up from Doss' post: Liesel's comment to Thoa that her teacher "died 2 years ago, was CWL's pupil, and he told me in no uncertain terms that all these nasty allegations re CWL were untrue" appeals to testimony as proof of innocence. Of course the fact that the events of 1906 occurred before Harry van Gelder was born, does not help Harry's credibility as a witness in CWL's defense. On the other hand, Harry did personally know CWL at a much later time, and can testify for the positive impression CWL made upon his life. Liesel's assertion that "there are statements by him and other pupils of CWL to the same effect. Some of them are in the archives at Wheaton" is also unhelpful, since the Wheaton archives are not available for the membership to view and she does not specify where the other statements may be found. Regarding Tillett's book, the fact that it was a phd thesis tends to be ignored. But this fact means that it was written under more restrictive guidelines of objectivity than other accounts of CWL that were published by the TS. I'm not saying that the book is not without flaws, all books are, but I am suggesting that it was written to be a comprehensive study of CWL, and accounts for numerous points of views. Liesel's statement that when Tillett "wrote his book none of the people who really knew CWL would have anything much to do with him" is an interesting criticism, but it doesn't reflect the facts. Among the people Tillett interviewed were Balfour Clarke, and Mary Lutyens. But what is curious is a contrasting criticism that Tillett's book is unreliable because it is based upon "gossip" he picked up from Balfour Clarke while researching the archives at Adyar. Of course, just reading the references in the "Notes" section shows very clearly that Tillett's research was extensive, and was primarily based upon documents. But Liesel's defense concerns giving the primary burden of proof to personal testimony. She writes: The ones I know, who loved and revered CWL, as do most Adyar Theosophists, say that all this accusations are very false. Now I guess it's up to you to figure out, if you can at this distance in time, who's telling the truth, and who's lying, or else imagining wrong interpretations on happenings. As Doss has shown, personal testimony is one side of the question. But does the testimony of those who "loved and revered CWL" count as convincing testimony for CWL's innocence to alleged acts they were not present to witness? Of course not: but they do give testimony to the powerful influence CWL had upon others. Though their testimony does not make the documents wrong, nor the actual witnesses liars, they do give evidence of another aspect of CWL that also needs to be acknowledged. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 01:06:23 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: CWL and Krishnaji Message-ID: In message <9703182223.AA24818@toto.csustan.edu>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes >As Doss has shown, personal testimony is one side of the >question. But does the testimony of those who "loved and revered >CWL" count as convincing testimony for CWL's innocence to alleged >acts they were not present to witness? Of course not: but they >do give testimony to the powerful influence CWL had upon others. >Though their testimony does not make the documents wrong, nor the >actual witnesses liars, they do give evidence of another aspect >of CWL that also needs to be acknowledged There is also, I suspect, the testimony of a) those who loved or revered CWL (eg. Ernest Wood?) and b) Those who disliked him and thought him a bad influence (vide Helen Dennis?). In the case of both of those named in the above paragraph, there is also written testimony; Wood with his book, and Helen Dennis (a former E.S. luminary, remember) in her letters. The testimony of Mary Lutyens is worth taking note of, as well, and is also available in her writings. Another (verbal) testimony of hers, two extracts from a BBC Radio broadcast of April 1986, follows: "He had very prominent eye teeth, and ge made me think of a vampire [chuckling]. He seemed to me to be a man of power; I cannot help saying that because he was a powerful person, there's no question at all about that! Everybody looked *to* him for guidance of some kind, enlightenment in some ways. If he hadn't occult powers, he had such a *glorious* imagination. I think that he could have been [said in an amused tone] a very successful writer." "... as for the Masters, I think he made a good deal of that up." Comments in square brackets are my own, on relistening to her words, words spoken from her knowledge and acquaintance of CWL. The point here perhaps is that there were or even still are people who knew CWL personally whose view of him and his behavior was not always complimentary to him, who presented a different perspective than that of the "party line." I might sum up my own impression of him by saying that he told a great many lies. But they were lies he probably believed himself, and being lies about the truth, they have helped many thousands of people in their search for it. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 09:52:13 -0800 From: "Eldon B. Tucker" Subject: information on copyrights Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970319095210.00683cc4@90.0.0.1> Below is something on copyrights that I saw on Usenet that is interesting to ready. -- Eldon ---- > Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:00:15 GMT > From: brad@clari.net (Brad Templeton) > Subject: Copyright Myths FAQ: 10 big myths about copyright explained 10 Big Myths about copyright explained By Brad Templeton 1) "If it doesn't have a copyright notice, it's not copyrighted." This was true in the past, but today almost all major nations follow the Berne copyright convention. For example, in the USA, almost everything created privately after April 1, 1989 is copyrighted and protected whether it has a notice or not. The default you should assume for other people's works is that they are copyrighted and may not be copied unless you *know* otherwise. There are some old works that lost protection without notice, but frankly you should not risk it unless you know for sure. It is true that a notice strengthens the protection, by warning people, and by allowing one to get more and different damages, but it is not necessary. If it looks copyrighted, you should assume it is. This applies to pictures, too. You may not scan pictures from magazines and post them to the net, and if you come upon something unknown, you shouldn't post that either. The correct form for a notice is: "Copyright by " You can use C in a circle instead of "Copyright" but "(C)" has never been given legal force. The phrase "All Rights Reserved" used to be required in some nations but is now not needed. 2) "If I don't charge for it, it's not a violation." False. Whether you charge can affect the damages awarded in court, but that's essentially the only difference. It's still a violation if you give it away -- and there can still be heavy damages if you hurt the commercial value of the property. 3) "If it's posted to Usenet it's in the public domain." False. Nothing is in the public domain anymore unless the owner explicitly puts it in the public domain(*). Explicitly, as in you have a note from the author/owner saying, "I grant this to the public domain." Those exact words or words very much like them. Some argue that posting to Usenet implicitly grants permission to everybody to copy the posting within fairly wide bounds, and others feel that Usenet is an automatic store and forward network where all the thousands of copies made are done at the command (rather than the consent) of the poster. This is a matter of some debate, but even if the former is true (and in this writer's opinion we should all pray it isn't true) it simply would suggest posters are implicitly granting permissions "for the sort of copying one might expect when one posts to Usenet" and in no case is this a placement of material into the public domain. Furthermore it is very difficult for an implicit licence to supersede an explicitly stated licence that the copier was aware of. Note that all this assumes the poster had the right to post the item in the first place. If the poster didn't, then all the copies are pirate, and no implied licence or theoretical reduction of the copyright can take place. (*) Copyrights can expire after a long time, putting someting into the public domain, and there are some fine points on this issue regarder older copyright law versions. However, none of this applies to an original article posted to USENET. Note that granting something to the public domain is a complete abandonment of all rights. You can't make something "PD for non-commercial use." If your work is PD, other people can even modify one byte and put their name on it. 4) "My posting was just fair use!" See other notes on fair use for a detailed answer, but bear the following in mind: The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. Are you reproducing an article from the New York Times because you needed to in order to criticise the quality of the New York Times, or because you couldn't find time to write your own story, or didn't want your readers to have to pay to log onto the online services with the story or buy a copy of the paper? The former is probably fair use, the latter probably aren't. Fair use is almost always a short excerpt and almost always attributed. (One should not use more of the work than is necessary to make the commentary.) It should not harm the commercial value of the work (which is another reason why reproduction of the entire work is generally forbidden.) Note that most inclusion of text in Usenet followups is for commentary and reply, and it doesn't damage the commercial value of the original posting (if it has any) and as such it is fair use. Fair use isn't an exact doctrine, either. The court decides if the right to comment overrides the copyright on an indidvidual basis in each case. There have been cases that go beyond the bounds of what I say above, but in general they don't apply to the typical net misclaim of fair use. It's a risky defence to attempt. 5) "If you don't defend your copyright you lose it." False. Copyright is effectively never lost these days, unless explicitly given away. You may be thinking of trade marks, which can be weakened or lost if not defended. 6) "Somebody has that name copyrighted!" You can't "copyright a name," or anything short like that. Titles usually don't qualify -- but I doubt you may write a song entitled "Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey." (J.Lennon/P.McCartney) You can't copyright words, but you can trademark them, generally by using them to refer to your brand of a generic type of product or service. Like an "Apple" computer. Apple Computer "owns" that word applied to computers, even though it is also an ordinary word. Apple Records owns it when applied to music. Neither owns the word on its own, only in context, and owning a mark doesn't mean complete control -- see a more detailed treatise on this law for details. You can't use somebody else's trademark in a way that would unfairly hurt the value of the mark, or in a way that might make people confuse you with the real owner of the mark, or which might allow you to profit from the mark's good name. For example, if I were giving advice on music videos, I would be very wary of trying to label my works with a name like "mtv." :-) 7) "They can't get me, defendants in court have powerful rights!" Copyright law is mostly civil law. If you violate copyright you would usually get sued, not charged with a crime. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a principle of criminal law, as is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." Sorry, but in copyright suits, these don't apply the same way or at all. It's mostly which side and set of evidence the judge or jury accepts or believes more, though the rules vary based on the type of infringement. In civil cases you can even be made to testify against your own interests. 8) "Oh, so copyright violation isn't a crime or anything?" Actually, recently in the USA commercial copyright violation involving more than 10 copies and value over $2500 was made a felony. So watch out. (At least you get the protections of criminal law.) On the other hand, don't think you're going to get people thrown in jail for posting your E-mail. The courts have much better things to do than that. This is a fairly new, untested statute. 9) "It doesn't hurt anybody -- in fact it's free advertising." It's up to the owner to decide if they want the free ads or not. If they want them, they will be sure to contact you. Don't rationalize whether it hurts the owner or not, *ask* them. Usually that's not too hard to do. Time past, ClariNet published the very funny Dave Barry column to a large and appreciative Usenet audience for a fee, but some person didn't ask, and forwarded it to a mailing list, got caught, and the newspaper chain that employs Dave Barry pulled the column from the net, pissing off everybody who enjoyed it. Even if you can't think of how the author or owner gets hurt, think about the fact that piracy on the net hurts everybody who wants a chance to use this wonderful new technology to do more than read other people's flamewars. 10) "They e-mailed me a copy, so I can post it." To have a copy is not to have the copyright. All the E-mail you write is copyrighted. However, E-mail is not, unless previously agreed, secret. So you can certainly *report* on what E-mail you are sent, and reveal what it says. You can even quote parts of it to demonstrate. Frankly, somebody who sues over an ordinary message might well get no damages, because the message has no commercial value, but if you want to stay strictly in the law, you should ask first. On the other hand, don't go nuts if somebody posts your E-mail. If it was an ordinary non-secret personal letter of minimal commercial value with no copyright notice (like 99.9% of all E-mail), you probably won't get any damages if you sue them. ----------------- In Summary --------------------------- These days, almost all things are copyrighted the moment they are written, and no copyright notice is required. Copyright is still violated whether you charged money or not, only damages are affected by that. Postings to the net are not granted to the public domain, and don't grant you any permission to do further copying except *perhaps* the sort of copying the poster might have expected in the ordinary flow of the net. Fair use is a complex doctrine meant to allow certain valuable social purposes. Ask yourself why you are republishing what you are posting and why you couldn't have just rewritten it in your own words. Copyright is not lost because you don't defend it; that's a concept from trademark law. The ownership of names is also from trademark law, so don't say somebody has a name copyrighted. Copyright law is mostly civil law where the special rights of criminal defendants you hear so much about don't apply. Watch out, however, as new laws are moving copyright violation into the criminal realm. Don't rationalize that you are helping the copyright holder; often it's not that hard to ask permission. Posting E-mail is technically a violation, but revealing facts from E-mail isn't, and for almost all typical E-mail, nobody could wring any damages from you for posting it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Permission is granted to freely copy this document in electronic form, or to print for personal use. If you had not seen a notice like this on the document, you would have to assume you did not have permission to copy it. This document is still protected by you-know- what even though it has no copyright notice. It should be noted that the author, as publisher of an electronic newspaper on the net, makes his living by publishing copyrighted material in electronic form and has the associated biases. However, DO NOT E-MAIL HIM FOR LEGAL ADVICE; for that use other resources or consult a lawyer. Also note that while most of these principles are universal in Berne copyright signatory nations, some are derived from Canadian and U.S. law. This document is provided to clear up some common misconceptions about intellectual property law that are often seen on the net. It is not intended to be a complete treatise on all the nuances of the subject. A more detailed copyright FAQ, covering other issues including compilation copyright and more intricacies of fair use is available in the same places you found this note, or for FTP on rtfm.mit.edu in pub/usenet-by-group/news.answers/law/copyright/faq. Also consider gopher://marvel.loc.gov/11/copyright for actual statutes. Another useful document is http://www.eff.org/pub/CAF/law/ip-primer This FAQ can be found at http://www.clari.net/brad/copymyths.html From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 13:58:23 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Power of Suggestion Message-ID: <970319135822_-771642092@emout06.mail.aol.com> Jerry, In a message dated 97-03-18 15:59:24 EST, you write: > As a former Christian Scientist, I have to agree. Back in the >50s, some Christian Science friends of my family had a remote to >the sound of their tv so they could turn off the commercials, especially >those for medicines. They swore that hearing about headaches >and backaches and colds all day long on commercials would >actually give them to you. Modern pscyhological studies suggest >that there is some truth to this. Very true. The thoughtform alone is deadly. It may be that the remote control is the best thing to come along for preserving health in this century. And it works real good for muzzling politicians as well. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 19:50:08 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: CWL and Krishnaj Message-ID: <199703200105.UAA06008@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Doss, But you don't seem to be mature enough to take cognisance of the fact that I'm not going to argue with you. Well, I'm just not. With kindest regards, Liesel .............................................................................. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:19:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: CWL and Krishnaj Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970320031900.00bd14dc@mail.eden.com> At 08:13 PM 3/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Doss, > >But you don't seem to be mature enough to take cognisance of the fact that >I'm not going to argue with you. Well, I'm just not. > >With kindest regards, > >Liesel > >.............................................................................. > Dear Liesel; Thanks for the msg. With regards, MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 02:34:57 -0500 (EST) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Human Cloning Message-ID: <970320023456_987449922@emout04.mail.aol.com> I wrote> ... there were a number of scientists (albeit a minority) who had serious reservations about developing nuclear weapons. As history has shown, their views did not prevail. You replied>> Hmnnn, perhaps their views should have prevailed .... I write> In this century alone before nuclear weapons were developed there were two ("count 'em") Two world wars. Have you noticed how many world wars we've had since the dawn of the atomic age? I wrote> ... new technologies have a way of developing a life of their own .. You replied>> If this conclusion is true, who is really in control - humanity or technology? I write> For all practical purposes --- technology! I wrote> ... lead, follow or get the #### out of the way. You replied>> Whoa, definitely disagree here. According to the above statement, those who would like careful deliberations ... would be con- sidered the folks who should "get the #### out of the way." I write> Wrong, Kym! Those are the folks who should be LEADING! You wrote>> What about the rights of those who are cloned? I write> Easy question --- they will have the same rights as anyone else. You wrote>> Is it ethical to clone someone for organs? I write> No! You wrote>> What reason would a woman have for carrying a clone if it is not going to be her child? I write> Another easy question --- the same reason(s) as any other surrogate mother. You wrote>> How will society treat those who have been cloned? I write> Hopefully, the same as everybody else. You wrote>> Are parents who want clones of themselves really having children for the "right" reason? I write> Who are we to mandate (to them or anyone else) what the "right" reason is? You wrote>> Who will have access to cloning technology --- only the rich ...? I write> This is another new technology. The same rules apply as for any other new technology. You wrote>> What reason could there be for cloning a human? I write> Certainly more reason than there is for knowingly conceiving by natural means genetically defective babies. You wrote>> Isn't this going to really mess with the gene pool? I write> Your first tough question, Kym (all the others were"softballs"). Genetic diversity is obviously a factor that needs to be carefully considered as cloning technology develops. You wrote>> Who "owns" the clones? I write> Who "owns" anybody else? (same answer for both questions). You wrote>> Is cloning animals according to laboratory medical/ scientific needs and experiments really ethical? I write (sigh)> Back to the easy questions again. Of course it is! It is no more unethical than for naturally conceived laboratory animals. Don't be discouraged, Kym. I happen to agree completely with your closing paragraph. Also, you at least seem to be examining the cloning issue in some depth --- which is more than most people are doing at the present time. Dennis dsarthur@aol.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:32:24 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: information on copyrights Message-ID: <970320133130_-637307459@emout16.mail.aol.com> Eldon, Thank you for posting this. The major difficulty involved in enforcing copyright on the internet is the time and expense of the civil action in relation to the usually very limited resources of the defendant. In other words, you can almost never collect the judgement that costs a fortune to get. The other difficulty is the large number of fanatics that will respond to such a lawsuit by anonymously posting the material all over the place once a suit is filed, making legal action against them prohibitively expensive and time consuming. Chuck From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:31:06 +0000 From: meta@vortex.is (Sveinn Freyr) Subject: can you tell us more.? Message-ID: <19970320193105589.AAA309@ras117.vortex.is> >Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:26:39 -0600 >From: M K Ramadoss >MKR >PS: Some time ago I accidentally found out that a well known person was sued >by the Attorney General of California, along with other trustees, several >years ago as one of the Trustees of a Charitable Trust for mismanagement and >other things. >This trust had world wide holdings of real estate and a lot of donated money >as well. Later on this person, along with other trustees, sued for >multi-million dollars one of the world reknowned spiritual speaker who has >affected many TS members around the world. Most people do not know of this >background. >If this person is just an ordinary member, who cares. But if it is a person >who occupies well known public position, is it not a fair game especially >when it may affect the public organization now and in future. Should we take >an osterich like attitude and say we do not care. Ramadoss, please tell us more about this matter. Sveinn Freyr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:33:29 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: [An attempt at humour] Message-ID: Hi All, I've just been getting through "The English Cabalah Vol.1" by William Eisen - a thoroughly useful text - and its sparked me off with some interesting correspondences. Firstly, I am using the a=1, b=2,c=3... ,and, the Table of Letters 1=A=J=S etc. Is it not interesting thaat:- Telephone (20+5+12+5+16+8+15+14+5) = 100 + modem (13+15+4+5+13) = 50 ------------- Communication (3+15+13+13+21+14+9+3+1+20+9+15+14) =150 ------------- Also, COMPUTER = HUMANITY = 111 Both of these have 8 letters and 111 = 7 in binary. Now, MICROPROCESSOR = (13+1+3+18+15+16+18+15+3+5+19+19+15+18) =178 MEMORY = (13+5+13+15+18+25) = 89 LOCATION = (12+15+3+1+20+9+15+14) = 89 =) MICROPROCESSOR = MEMORY LOCATION Intriguing n'est pas. At the same time BRAIN = SPACE = 44 - Does this mean that when someone on drugs is "spaced out" it is only in brain consciousness! I always knew that ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING was something to avoid. It equals 195, and we all know what that transliterates as don't we - SIN! Is GENETICS as good as it sounds? It equals 82 - the reverse of 28 (that of MAN). And why is that Prof. Dawkings chap a biologist? BIOLOGY = 85 [Devil]!! Also I never knew what WILL really was. WILL= 56 = THE I AM! However, trivia you might say - but how about this: Mercury : 7 letters Venus : 5 letters Saturn : 6 letters Jupiter : 7 letters Earth: 5 letters Mars: 4 letters Sun: 3 letters Moon: 4 letters ----- 41 --- >From the tables: M= 4 A=1 41=MA and reversed 14=AM.Put them together you get MAMA - quite appropriate if Space is the Mother Goddess. >From the number of letters Also P=7 E=5 O=6 P=7 E=5 D=4 U=3 D=4 Rearrange those letters and you get the following: E. Ego Dump - Earth [is] Ego Dump Whose in charge of the Maha Maya :- that POPE DUDE. And, penultimately, O DEEP MUG. We are evidently all mugs coming to this place, and the Universe is surely telling us this. Finally URANUS + NEPTUNE + PLUTO = 252 [the Devils Number] But, at the same time it equals 9 - possibly the first,second, and third rays initiate into the ABSOLUTE methinks? However, If you add up all 10 you get 842. Rearrange this and you get 248 which transliterates as XH [Each Judgement - or Each is Judged]. Foreboding or what! Now, off for that cup of universe, sorry,I meant tea. Love and Light Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:20:52 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: can you tell us more.? Message-ID: HI This involved world reknowned Jiddu Krishnamurti and the trusts setup to facilitate Krishnamurti to travel and speak. The Krishnamurti Foundation of America was setup only after the trouble arose with the prior trusts which was the focus of the litigation. Much of the information is in public domain because of litigation in courts. But only in the recent years details are becoming known. MKR On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Sveinn Freyr wrote: > > >Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:26:39 -0600 > >From: M K Ramadoss > > >MKR > > >PS: Some time ago I accidentally found out that a well known person was sued > >by the Attorney General of California, along with other trustees, several > >years ago as one of the Trustees of a Charitable Trust for mismanagement and > >other things. > > >This trust had world wide holdings of real estate and a lot of donated money > >as well. Later on this person, along with other trustees, sued for > >multi-million dollars one of the world reknowned spiritual speaker who has > >affected many TS members around the world. Most people do not know of this > >background. > > >If this person is just an ordinary member, who cares. But if it is a person > >who occupies well known public position, is it not a fair game especially > >when it may affect the public organization now and in future. Should we take > >an osterich like attitude and say we do not care. > > > Ramadoss, please tell us more about this matter. > > Sveinn Freyr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:23:19 +0000 From: Alan Subject: Weclome Message-ID: THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL welcomes member number 65, Dick Slusser, Editor of Hgh Country Theosophist. Individual "welcomes" to dslusser@indra.com Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:28:24 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: An attempt at humour Message-ID: <199703210028.QAA13618@palrel1.hp.com> Benjamin Mark Pybus gave a kabalistic explanation of telephones and modems. I thought I would forward a kabalistic analysis of Bill Gates. It uses the ASCII version of numerology. Proof that Bill Gates is the Devil: The real name of "the" Bill Gates is William Henry Gates III. Nowadays he is known as Bill Gates (III), where "III" means the order of third (3rd.) By converting the letters of his current name to the ASCII-values and adding his (III), you get the following: B 66 I 73 L 76 L 76 G 71 A 65 T 84 E 69 S 83 + 3 -------------- 666 !! Some might ask, "How did Bill Gates get so powerful?" Coincidence? Or just the beginning of mankind's ultimate and total enslavement??? Before you decide, consider the following: M S - D O S 6.21 77+83+45+68+79+83+32+54+46+50+49 = 666 W I N D O W S 95 87+73+78+68+79+87+83+57+53+1 = 666 Coincidence? You decide... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:09:15 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: [An Attempt At Humour] Message-ID: <199703210609.WAA28757@proxy3.ba.best.com> That was good, Ben, darn good. Was the number of letters from the Eisen book? Your number of letters did not match with my source. What I got from The Numerical Structure of Enochian by David Allen Hulse (closest to your numbers), was: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B G D E F Z H Theta I C L M N X O P Q R S T U This also differs from the Golden Dawn system for numbering Enochian, and Alistair Crowley's system. I could understand that the differences are due to the different methods of deciphering them. However, since I am new to the Kabbalah, I wonder whether someone could clarify as to the validity of the systems. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:31:47 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: e-mail for everyone Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970321203147.00c2fd94@mail.eden.com> In England, there is a move to provide a e-mail address for everyone and access to e-mail. This includes children in elementary school and the students will be able to access e-mail thru their schools. I guess rest who do not have computers may be able to access e-mail thru public places like libraries. This prospect opens up a lot of opportunities. We can reach more individuals at a very marginal cost. If and when the above becomes a reality, there is going to be a fundamental change in all organizations like TS in the way they do business with their members. Looks like 21st century is going to be very exciting. ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:38:52 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Gematria Message-ID: <199703212239.RAA13622@NetGSI.com> >This also differs from the Golden Dawn system for numbering Enochian, and >Alistair Crowley's system. I could understand that the differences are due >to the different methods of deciphering them. However, since I am new to >the Kabbalah, I wonder whether someone could clarify as to the validity of >the systems. > >Thoa There are at least 6 separate Enochian gematria systems today. I personally prefer my own interpretation of Crowley's gematria, and that is the one that I use. But you can use any that work for you. The whole idea is to find hidden correspondences (which actually do exist all over the palce, anyway). Its almost like using Tarot or IChing in that you have to interpret a bit--thus you have to use some intuition, and it is the intuition that gets the real results, not the gematria which is only a device. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:04:46 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An attempt at humour Message-ID: In message <199703210028.QAA13618@palrel1.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >M S - D O S 6.21 >77+83+45+68+79+83+32+54+46+50+49 = 666 > >W I N D O W S 95 >87+73+78+68+79+87+83+57+53+1 = 666 > >Coincidence? You decide... I'm thinking about it while replying via Demon Internet access number (UK) 0845 0789 666 ^^^ Coincidence ... ? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:08:27 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: For All You Geeks Out There Message-ID: <199703220108.RAA18863@proxy1.ba.best.com> Top signs of net addiction 1. You wake up at 3 a.m. to go to the bathroom and stop to check your e-mail on the way back to bed. 2. You get a tattoo that reads "This body best viewed with Netscape Navigator 2.0 or higher." 3. You name your children Eudora, Mozilla, Netscape and Dotcom. 4. You turn off your modem and get this awful empty feeling, like you just pulled the plug on a loved one. 5. You spend half of the plane trip with your laptop on your lap...and your child in the overhead compartment. 6. You decide to stay in college for an additional year or two, just for the free Internet access. 7. You laugh at people with 2400-baud modems. 8. You start using smileys in your snail mail. 9. Your hard drive crashes. You haven't logged in for two hours. You start to twitch. You pick up the phone and manually dial your ISP's access number. You try to hum to communicate with the modem. And you succeed. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:21:43 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: human cloning Message-ID: <199703220137.UAA12574@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Dennis I'd like to know what you think of my objection that we don't know what diseases the clone is going to develop during its lifetime. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:25:42 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: For those of you in the corporate world Message-ID: <199703220125.RAA05208@proxy1.ba.best.com> More advice for surviving in the corporate world: Put a chair facing a printer, sit there all day and tell people you're waiting for your document. Arrive at a meeting late, say you're sorry, but you didn't have time for lunch, and you're going to be nibbling during the meeting. During the meeting eat 5 entire raw potatoes. Insist that your e-mail address be "zena_goddess_of_fire@companyname.com" Every time someone asks you to do something, ask them to sign a waiver. Every time someone asks you to do something, ask them if they want fries with that. Send email to yourself engaging yourself in an intelligent debate about the direction of one of your company's products. Forward the mail to a co-worker and ask her to settle the disagreement. Page yourself over the intercom. (Don't disguise your voice.) Name all your pens and insist that meetings can't begin until they're all present. Come to work in your pajamas. Put a picture of your mother on your business card. Find out where your boss shops and buy exactly the same outfits. Always wear them one day after your boss does. (This is especially effective if your boss is a different gender than you are.) Make up nicknames for all your coworkers and refer to them only by these names. "That's a good point Sparky." "No I'm sorry I'm going to have to disagree with you there, Chachi." Suggest that beer be put in the soda machine. Include a piece of your children's artwork as a cover page for all reports that you write. (If you don't have children, draw stick figures yourself.) Schedule meetings for 4:14 pm. Encourage your colleagues to join you in a little synchronized chair dancing. Agree to organize the company Christmas party. Hold it at McDonald's Playland. Charge everyone $15 each. Send email to the rest of the company telling them what you're doing. For example "If anyone needs me I'll be in the bathroom." No matter what anyone asks you, reply "Okay." Put your garbage can on your desk. Label it "IN." Plant a hedge around your cubicle. Grow mold in your coffee cup. Build models of the Seven Wonders of the World using empty soda cans. Put on your headphones on whenever the boss comes into the office. Talk in a loud voice. Remove your headphones when he or she leaves. When in conversation, no matter where you are in the office, mutter, "I think my phone is ringing" and leave. Go get a coffee. Determine how many cups of coffee is "too many." Develop an unnatural fear of staplers. Compose all your e-mail in rhyming couplets. Install a set of buttons and lights in the arm of your chair. Talk into your daytimer. "Hi-lite" your shoes. Tell people that you haven't lost your shoes since you did this. Organize a carpool. Go to pick everyone up in a taxi. Email nude gifs (graphic image files) of yourself to your coworkers. Tell them you got them off the Internet. Hang mistletoe over your desk. Include a personal note on every email you send. "On a personal note, I'm feeling a bit tired and grumpy today." "On a personal note, I'm pleased to announce that I got my highest score ever on Tetris last night." Bring in dishes that you tried to cook but didn't turn out quite right as special treats for your co-workers. While sitting at your desk, soak your fingers in "Palmolive". Put up mosquito netting around your cubicle. Decorate your office with pictures of Cindy Brady and Danny Partridge. Try to pass them off as your children. For a relaxing break, get away from it all with a mask and snorkel in the fish tank. If no one notices, take out your snorkel and see how many you can catch in your mouth. Send e-mail messages saying free pizza, free donuts etc... in the lunchroom, when people complain that there was none... Just lean back, pat your stomach, and say, "Oh you've got to be faster than that." See how long it takes until the last person stops believing you. Then start planting pizzas. Put decaf in the coffeemaker for 3 weeks. Once everyone has gotten over their caffeine addictions, switch to espresso. When you go to a party at somebody's house, don't automatically assume that the drinks are free. Ask, and ask often. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:38:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Excerpt from a Novel Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970322073824.006a8f6c@mail.eden.com> Here is something I picked up from usenet. Is the author referring to Comte de St. Germain who played an active part behind the scenes during the French Revolution? MKR ----------------------------------------------------- I just finished reading Tanith Lee's new novel about the French Revolution, "The Gods Are Thirsty". It is a good story (as most of hers are), and a horrifyingly realistic portrayal of just what our own revoluton could have become, given a different political and social climate. It also has, in its final pages, some commentary from its protagonist, a writer who helped start the Revolution, then became its victim. We hear from him shortly after his close encounter with Madame Guillotine, speaking words I think you can appreciate: ... You say (of course), How can he speak to us now? He's dead. ... Why, because there is something left of me to shout, voiceless, maybe, but vocal for all that. No, not my soul, not my ghost. That is theosophy. What, then? Ah, but it's hard to describe. Let me say - and conceivably you, who live, will understand me - let me say I can go on speaking because I have spoken. I can live still because I have lived. No atom ever lost. Each of us will leave an underlying echo behind him. One needs only to listen; you will hear. And so you have. ... It comes to me - too late, naturally, and there is a rationale, too, in that lateness - that any man who tries to change the world, unless he is God or all the gods together, can manage much - but much of that much will be a nightmare and, worse, chaos. Those who attempt the feat, the idealists and dreamers, are too drunk on their ideals and dreams to see the errors in their modus operandi. ... Nevertheless, I will not relinquish the dream. It remains before mankind, of which sacred brotherhood I have been a member, like a flaming beacon. If passion cannot reach it, hope may. ... The facility to hope and dream is the birthright of men, by which they sustain themselves in the cold and darkness of the cosmos and of the heart. And, as we learn, who knows but in the end we shall be wise enough to reach the distant light, and to live as gods live, But with the goodness of which felonious man alone, and never the gods, is capable. For man is the wingless one who has learned to fly, high as birds, in the golden balloon of aspiration. Oh, believe in this child that we are. Enjoy... P.S. Please don't start reading this book . It's over 500 dense pages, and we really need your full concentration on the current season (and hopefully the next). But file it away for future reference... Frank McKenney / OS/2 Advisor (OS2BBS) McKenney Associates / Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887 Internet: rrs0059@ibm.net / TalkLink: WZ01123 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:42:48 -0600 From: Ramadoss Subject: Service Message-ID: <33341A18.7653@eden.com> Here is a msg I saw on usenet. Looks like a good compilation. Can be useful in lectures. mkr ================================= SERVING OTHERS The way of serving others is the topic of passages in this section. The purest service is to help others and to seek the welfare of others without the expectation of reward. On the contrary, the way of selfish- ness brings only disharmony and failure; the selfish person eventually will find himself alone and without friends in his time of need. In the Bhagavad Gita, and paralleled by passages in the Tao Te Ching, the way of selfless service is described as the fundamental principle by which God creates and sustains the universe; whenever a person acts selflessly in the service of others, that act is born of God. Another group of passages connects service with true lordship. While the conventional rulers abuse their powers by seeking to be served by their charges, the true leader is a servant to his people; as exemplified by Jesus, who came "not to be served, but to serve." Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Christianity. Galatians 6.2 Rendering help to another is the function of all human beings. Jainism. Tattvarthasutra 5.21 All men are responsible for one another. Judaism. Talmud, Sanhedrin 27b The best of men are those who are useful to others. Islam. Hadith of Bukhari Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Christianity. 1 Corinthians 10.24 - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatians 6.2: Cf. John 15.13, p. 236. This fulfills not only a law of Christ, but also a dhamma of Buddhism; cf. Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life 8.112-16, p. 165. Hadith of Bukhari: Cf. Bodhipathapradipa, p. 404. 1 Corinthians 10.24: Cf. Galatians 5.13, p. 465; Philippians 2.3-4, p. 787. - - - - - - - - - - - - Without selfless service are no objectives fulfilled; In service lies the purest action. Sikhism. Adi Granth, Maru, M.1, p. 992 He who prays for his fellowman, while he himself has the same need, will be answered first. Judaism. Talmud, Baba Kamma 92a The man of perfect virtue, wishing to be established himself, seeks also to establish others; wishing to be enlarged himself, he seeks also to enlarge others. Confucianism. Analects 6.28.2 I tell you these things that you may learn wisdom; that you may learn that when you are in the service of your fellow beings you are only in the service of your God. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Book of Mormon, Mosiah 2.17 One who serves and seeks no recompense Finds union with the Lord. Such a servant alone takes the Master's guidance, says Nanak, As on him is divine grace. Sikhism. Adi Granth, Sukhmani 18, M.5, pp. 286f. Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own inter- ests, but also to the interests of others. Christianity. Philippians 2.3-4 God's definition of goodness is total giving, total service, and absolute unselfishness. We are to live for others. You live for others and others live for you. God lives for man and man lives for God. The husband lives for his wife and the wife lives for her husband. This is goodness. And here unity, harmony, and prosperity abound. Unification Church. Sun Myung Moon, 10-20-73 Until now each and everyone throughout the world has been concerned only with himself. How pitiful it is! You have no mind to help others, however hard you may think it over. Henceforth, replace your mind indefinitely! I, Tsukihi, request it from you all equally. If you ask what kind of mind it is, it is the mind to save single-heartedly all people of the world. Henceforth, if only all people of the world equally help each other on any and every matter, believe that I, Tsukhihi, will accept your minds and will work any and every kind of salvation! Tenrikyo. Ofudesaki 12.89-94 - - - - - - - - - - - - Sun Myung Moon, 10-20-73: See Sun Myung Moon, 10-20-73; Key tp Theosophy, p. 356; Key to Theosophy, p. 356. - - - - - - - - - - - - Do not seek to benefit only yourself, but think of other people also. If you yourself have an abundance, do not say, "The others do not concern me, I need not bother about them!" If you were lucky in hunting, let others share it. Moreover, show them the favorable spots where there are many sea lions which can be easily slain. Let others have their share occasionally. If you want to amass everything for yourself, other people will stay away from you and no one will want to be with you. If you should one day fall ill, no one will visit you because, for your part, you did not formerly concern yourself about others. Grant other people something also. The Yamana do not like a person who acts selfishly. Native American Religions. Yamana Eskimo Initiation Heaven is eternal and Earth everlasting. They can be eternal and everlasting because they do not exist for them- selves, And for this reason can exist forever. Therefore the sage places himself in the background, but finds himself in the foreground. He puts himself away, and yet he always remains. Is it not because he has no personal interests? This is the reason why his personal interests are fulfilled. Taoism. Tao Te Ching 7 At the beginning, mankind and the obligation of selfless service were created together. "Through selfless service, you will always be fruitful and find the fulfillment of your desires": this is the promise of the Creator.... Every selfless act, Arjuna, is born from the eternal, infinite Godhead. God is present in every act of service. All life turns on this law, O Arjuna. Whoever violates it, indulging his senses for his own pleasure and ignoring the needs of others, has wasted his life. But those who realize the God within are always satisfied. Having found the source of joy and fulfillment, they no longer seek happiness from the external world. They have nothing to gain or lose by any action; neither people nor things can affect their security. What the outstanding person does, others will try to do. The standards such people set will be followed by the whole world. There is nothing in the three worlds for Me to gain, Arjuna, nor is there anything I do not have; I continue to act, but I am not driven by any need of my own. If I ever refrained from continuous work, everyone would immediately follow my example. If I stopped working I would be the cause of cosmic chaos, and finally of the destruction of this world and these people. Strive constantly to serve the welfare of the world; by devotion to self- less work one attains the supreme goal in life. Do your work with the welfare of others always in mind. It was by such work that Janaka attain- ed perfection; others, too, have followed this path. The ignorant work for their own profit, Arjuna; the wise work for the welfare of the world, without thought to themselves. By abstaining from work you will confuse the ignorant, who are engrossed in their actions. Perform all work carefully, guided by compassion. Hinduism. Bhagavad Gita 3.10-26 - - - - - - - - - - - - Bhagavad Gita 3.10-26: Vv. 10, 15-26. See Bhagavad Gita 3.4-9, p. 847; 5.10-12, p. 674; Satapatha Brahmana 5.1.1.1-2, pp. 383f. On Gandhi's interpretation of selfless action as satyagraha, see Bhagavad Gita 2.31-38, p. 887n. - - - - - - - - - - - - Guardianship is not to give an order but to give one's self. African Traditional Religions. Nyika Proverb (Kenya and Tanzania) Jesus said, "You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Christianity. Matthew 20.25-28 The sage does not accumulate for himself. The more he uses for others, the more he has himself. The more he gives to others, the more he possesses of his own. The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure. The Way of the sage is to act but not to compete. Taoism. Tao Te Ching 81 If, for my own sake, I cause harm to others, I shall be tormented in hellish realms; But if for the sake of others I cause harm to myself, I shall acquire all that is magnificent. By holding myself in high esteem I shall find myself in unpleasant realms, ugly and stupid; But should this [attitude] be shifted to others I shall acquire honors in a joyful realm. If I employ others for my own purposes I myself shall experience servitude, But if I use myself for the sake of others I shall experience only lordliness. Buddhism. Shantideva, Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life 8.126-128 - - - - - - - - - - - - Matthew 20.25-28: Cf. Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life 5.51-52, p. 791. Tao Te Ching 81: Cf. Tao Te Ching 64, p. 790. - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Damian J. Anderson Jack of All Trades - Master of Several Cable & Wireless Internet Exchange (CWIX) damian@cwix.net From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 16:27:43 -0700 From: jsantucci@ccvax.fullerton.edu (James Santucci) Subject: Re: A new book on Theosophy Message-ID: Hi Daniel: Would you believe that the Gilchrist book is out of print! I've been trying since January to get a copy but with no response from the publisher. You don't by any chance have a copy? Sincerely, Jim From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 13:43:54 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Service Message-ID: <970322134353_1452576409@emout18.mail.aol.com> And the best way of all to serve humanity is roasted on a platter. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:53:08 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Service Message-ID: <6XHoGEAkDHNzEwKm@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <33341A18.7653@eden.com>, Ramadoss writes >Here is a msg I saw on usenet. Looks like a good compilation. Can be >useful in lectures. > >mkr > >================================= > >SERVING OTHERS Virtually all the quotes are for "he" and "him" people. The word "she" or "woman" does not occur anywhere, except as "wife." Seems like most of the authors left out half the human race. AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:20:17 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS in Germany Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970323012017.006782a0@mail.eden.com> I had an inquiry about TS in Germany. I need a telephone number of the person in charge of TS (Adyar) in Germany. If anyone has the information, please let me know. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:21:05 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Service Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970323012105.00683018@mail.eden.com> Good point. ..doss At 07:41 PM 3/22/97 -0500, you wrote: >In message <33341A18.7653@eden.com>, Ramadoss writes >>Here is a msg I saw on usenet. Looks like a good compilation. Can be >>useful in lectures. >> >>mkr >> >>================================= >> >>SERVING OTHERS > >Virtually all the quotes are for "he" and "him" people. The word "she" >or "woman" does not occur anywhere, except as "wife." > >Seems like most of the authors left out half the human race. > >AB >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:02:41 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Service Message-ID: <970322210241_210044056@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-22 19:51:11 EST, you write: > >Virtually all the quotes are for "he" and "him" people. The word "she" >or "woman" does not occur anywhere, except as "wife." > >Seems like most of the authors left out half the human race. cooking them requires different oven temperatures. Chuck the Chef From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:14:25 -0700 (MST) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Service Message-ID: <199703230214.TAA11887@snowden.micron.net> Doss wrote: >In message <33341A18.7653@eden.com>, Ramadoss writes >>Here is a msg I saw on usenet. Looks like a good compilation. Can be >>useful in lectures. >> >>mkr >> >>================================= >> >>SERVING OTHERS Alan responded: >Virtually all the quotes are for "he" and "him" people. The word "she" >or "woman" does not occur anywhere, except as "wife." > >Seems like most of the authors left out half the human race. Indeed. And maybe it would have been a teeny bit easier going down if the transgression of gender-exclusiveness had been limited to the aged 'quotations of wisdom,' but the modern gentleman that offered them (not Doss, but the "Jack of all Trades") simply carried the transgression clean over into 1997. Could it be that some haven't heard? Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:43:59 -0700 (MST) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Human Cloning (a long post) Message-ID: <199703230343.UAA14423@snowden.micron.net> Dennis wrote: > In this century alone before nuclear weapons were developed there >were two ("count 'em") Ok. One, two. >Two world wars. Well! If had had known you were going to count them for me. . . >Have you noticed how many >world wars we've had since the dawn of the atomic age? Nostradamus has cautioned us not to get too comfy - but what does he know anyway? If atomic bombs really are the peacekeepers you seem to imply they are, a "Hug the A-bomb" bumper sticker is in order. >You [Kym] replied>> If this conclusion is true, who is really in control - humanity >or technology? >I write> For all practical purposes --- technology! I disagree - humans are responsible for the good and bad of technology. We may want to say we aren't in control, therefore "it" wasn't our fault, but we're in far more control than we'd care to admit. Technology cannot control us unless we give technology the permission to do so. >You [Kym] replied>> Whoa, definitely disagree here. According to the above >statement, those who would like careful deliberations ... would be con- >sidered the folks who should "get the #### out of the way." >I write> Wrong, Kym! Those are the folks who should be LEADING! With all due respect to philosophers as I am a philosophy major, philosophers and those like them really make poor leaders. If we think we have gridlock in our American legislative system now, just picture a bunch of 'careful deliberators' going at it. Plato, among others, fancied philosophers as benevolent dictators. Anyway, on the cloning subject, scientists are the ones who are leading, and maybe should be - but, hopefully they will stop and listen before proceeding. >You [Kym] wrote>> What about the rights of those who are cloned? >I write> Easy question --- they will have the same rights as anyone else. Are you sure? Why? Medical ethicists, and even some legislators, are wondering if that will be so. >You [Kym] wrote>> Is it ethical to clone someone for organs? >I write> No! Why? A few years ago, a couple whose living child had cancer had a baby in the hopes it would be a bone marrow match, and therefore donor, for the living child. I think the child did turn out to be a match. Was that unethical? There are organs people can donate without dying - would it be ethical to do so if the clones wouldn't die from the procedure? >You [Kym] wrote>> What reason would a woman have for carrying a clone >if it is not going to be her child? >I write> Another easy question --- the same reason(s) as any other >surrogate mother. Well, due to the failure rate and health risks, I wonder how scientists are going to find the huge numbers of women they will need in order to clone. The risk is far greater for the carrier of a clone than a surrogate mother at this stage. I would gather human "hosts" may be difficult to come by. >You [Kym] wrote>> Are parents who want clones of themselves really >having children for the "right" reason? >I write> Who are we to mandate (to them or anyone else) what >the "right" reason is? We mandate rules for adoption. We mandate rules for surrogate mothers. We mandate rules for parents who use surrogate mothers. We mandate rules for foster parents. We mandate what consitutes basic parenting - food, shelter, schooling, lack of mistreatment, etc. We mandate what makes parents unfit in courts of law everyday. Why should parents of clones have it different? If someone claimed they were having a child cloned from a dying child, how would we feel about that? How would the cloned child feel? Should there be laws? >You [Kym] wrote>> What reason could there be for cloning a human? >I write> Certainly more reason than there is for knowingly >conceiving by natural means genetically defective babies. This is a confusing answer. Would you please clarify or expand on this? >You [Kym] wrote>> Isn't this going to really mess with the gene pool? >I write> Your first tough question, Kym (all the others were"softballs"). Congratulations on your ease of understanding of complex issues. Perhaps you should consider cloning. . . >You [Kym] wrote>> Is cloning animals according to laboratory medical/ >scientific needs and experiments really ethical? >I write (sigh)> Back to the easy questions again. Sigh? Sorry to disappoint you, Dennis - ok, ok, I'm lying. >Of course it is! It is >no more unethical than for naturally conceived laboratory animals. I disagree that the use of animals is medical experiments is ethical. There is no such being as a "laboratory animal." There are only animals being used in laboratories. I do not believe animals were made for this purpose - and there is less and less excuse for using them as we advance in technology. I am concerned that animals "made to specification" will bring false readings to results of experiments - there is already ample difference in animal and human responses to the same chemicals. I am also concerned that the pain factor of animals will be increased, as they will be seen even more so as "manufactured" objects. I am also concerned that people will draw a distinction between cloned animals and naturally conceived animals. Maybe we could clone endangered species, and prevent them from extinction - but wouldn't that just let humanity off the hook? Why should humanity care if we shoot all the elephants as long as we can clone them? If we learn to fix everything we break, will we ever learn respect for anything? Can we balance it? Maybe. > Don't be discouraged, Kym. ok. Kym the Undiscouraged From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 23:31:55 -0500 (EST) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Human Cloning Message-ID: <970322233154_-1873312137@emout02.mail.aol.com> Dear Liesel: Reference your recent E-mail communication to me: 1. Your objection is valid. As with any previously unknow technology caution and vigilence are advisable. 2. However, it seems unlikely that clones will be any more (or less) subject to disease than are the donors from whom DNA is taken to start the cloning process. 3. Most people appear frightened about cloning simply because it is something new to them and they really don't understand what is involved. Yet these same people have no fear of human twins and tripletts (or even larger multiple births) which, for all practical pur- poses, pose the same issues as for cloned births. 4. I have heard several people say: "I wouldn't like two of me running around." However, I have never heard identical twins (and I've known several) say that. Dennis From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 01:29:56 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: A Thought On The "GOD" Question Message-ID: <333cd832.19950669@mail.earthlink.net> On the eve of the Third Millennium we have become citizens of the cosmos. Through the eyes of the Hubble telescope we have seen the universe as never before. We have seen the emptiness of space strewn with galaxies as thick as snow. We have seen the birth of stars. We have found planetary discs around stars. We have found amino acids in space. In this situation it is becoming impossible to believe in Gods separate from the universe, or Gods who created this un-graspable immensity just as a frame for our minute presence. During this same generation we have lost our citizenship of this earth, and risk losing our delicate foothold in the cosmos. We have acquired the power to modify life, to alter ecosystems, to change the planet itself and threaten the future of every species, including our own. Today we need religions that provide powerful backing for environmental action. Yet the three largest Western religions provide only feeble support. In this generation religion must come of age. Religion must be reborn into the age of space and science, the age of environment. At its heart is reverence of the universe as divine and for the natural earth as sacred. When I say THE UNIVERSE IS DIVINE, I am not talking about a supernatural being. We are talking about the way our senses and our emotions force us to respond to the overwhelming mystery and power that surrounds us. We are part of the universe. Our earth was created from the universe and will one day be reabsorbed into the universe. We are made of the same matter as the universe. We are not in exile here: we are at home. It is only here that we will ever get the chance to see the divine face to face. If we believe our real home is not here but in a land that lies beyond death - if we believe that the divine is found only in old books, or old buildings, or inside our head - then we will see this real, vibrant, luminous world as if through a glass darkly. The universe creates us, preserves us, destroys us. It is deep and old beyond our ability to reach with our senses. It is beautiful beyond our ability to describe in words. It is complex beyond our ability to fully grasp in science. We must relate to the universe with humility, awe, reverence, celebration and the search for deeper understanding - in other words, in many of the ways that believers relate to their God. When I say THE EARTH IS SACRED,I mean it with just as much commitment and reverence as believers speaking about their church or mosque, or the relics of their saints. But again we are not talking about supernatural beings. We are saying this: We are part of nature. Nature made us and at our death we will be reabsorbed into nature. We are at home in nature and in our bodies. This is where we belong; this is the only place where we can find and make our paradise, not in some imaginary world on the other side of the grave. If nature is the only paradise, then separation from nature is the only hell. When we destroy nature, we create hell on earth for other species and for ourselves. Nature is our mother, our home, our security, our peace, our past and our future. We should treat natural things and habitats as believers treat their temples and shrines, as sacred - to be revered and preserved in all their intricate and fragile beauty. *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* To reduce stress, pain, anger, and anxiety, turn Inward and Meditate. Focus on your senses -- not on everyday thoughts. Let There Be Light, Always in All Ways, e.j. }^-^{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "Instead of viewing difficult events as stressful, view them as redirections and good will come of them" - Bernie Siegel,MD From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:19:16 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Human Cloning Message-ID: In message <199703230343.UAA14423@snowden.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >I disagree that the use of animals is medical experiments is ethical. There >is no such being as a "laboratory animal." There are only animals being >used in laboratories. Very true - making such a distinction perhaps helps those who experiment on animals justify unethical behavior. > I do not believe animals were made for this purpose - >and there is less and less excuse for using them as we advance in technology. I have heard that in many cases the alleged comparison between a disease produced in laboratory animls and the same or similar disease in humans does not hold, and that using animals for experiments in some areas is a complete waste of time, causing unnecessary pain to the ctreatures concerned. Note that I said 'in many cases' not 'all cases' - I don't have enough info. Maybe someone with experience can advise. > >I am concerned that animals "made to specification" will bring false >readings to results of experiments - there is already ample difference in >animal and human responses to the same chemicals. There could also be a vested interest by drug companies in producing 'test' animals which could be engineered to support the findings the drug company wanted to see ... > I am also concerned that >the pain factor of animals will be increased, as they will be seen even more >so as "manufactured" objects. I am also concerned that people will draw a >distinction between cloned animals and naturally conceived animals. Me too. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 00:22:07 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: For those of you in the corporate world Message-ID: <199703240822.AAA17715@palrel1.hp.com> Thoa, While I think you gave useful information, you assume that your readers have reached the corporate world. Some, I'm sure, would appreciate some wisdom about how to get there. To fill in this gap, I thought I'd better post this guide to getting a job. Chapter 1 - The Resume Your resume is a crucial document that summarizes the essence of your being to a potential employer. You must grab a personnel director's attention with your sheer, overpowering wonderfulness, or your vitae will wind up lining the bottom of her parakeet's cage. Write a boring resume and you might as well run down now and join the other unemployed grads behind the appliance store, fighting for the choicest refigerator carton to live in. To grab an employer's jaded eye you must create the written equivalent of a banshee wail! Print your resume on hunter's orange paper, so it nearly leaps out of the stack. Experiment with striking fonts, and use as many as possible. Writing your name in 2 inch high 3-D Western style letters at the top says "Check ME out! I'm no shrinking violet!" Sprinkle a bit of your most sensual cologne on the sheet, and ladies, be sure to add a good lipstick smooch mark at the bottom. Don't forget your picture, too! Be sure and staple several of your best 8x10 glossies from Glamor Shots on top. Now that you've achieved that visceral "oomph", it's time to polish the contents to bring out or even invent your positive qualities. Remember, a skilled wordsmith can transform any qualification or attribute, no matter how trifling, into a salable skill. Let's look at some examples of putting the best "spin" on a job seeker's skills: "I flipped burgers for three weeks at Lardee's." A mere burger flipper? Why sell yourself so short? Describe yourself as a "Grill Coordinator", or perhaps a "Culinary Technician". "I subbed in for my nephew's paper route one weekend." Ah! So you were previously employed in "Communication Services!" Describe yourself as a "Journalism Representative." "I spent the last five years sitting on a couch eating Cheetos and watching Charlie's Angels reruns." You can transform the pathetic into the energetic by referring to yourself as a "Consumer Broadcasting Specialist." Let them know how much time you've wisely invested in "Popular Drama Studies." "I worked in telemarketing." Die you scumbag. "I like to drink 3 or 4 bottles of Night Train wine and pass out in a puddle of my own urine." I see! An "Alternative Hygiene Researcher" who throws himself into his work! Always remember to use active, "can-do" language in your resume, and be sure to include as many of the following terms as possible: 1) Excellence (can't get enough of this one!) 2) Goal-oriented 3) Forward-thinking 4) Like Working with People (as opposed to zoo animals) 5) Striving (everyone likes a striver!) It may be useful to define these as keyboard macros immediately. Chapter 2 - The Interview So now you've got that big chance to shine in person. Once again, you've got to stand out from the crowd! First, consider your apparel carefully. Next, practice that handshake, and consider adding a little thumb twist manuever or a good high- five. And remember, no one likes shaking dry, chapped hands, so make sure yours are damp when you leave the restroom. Now jump right in, and distinguish yourself with your first words. Here's some suggestions for opening lines: "The voices told me I'm perfect for this job." "I can make an impressive incendiary device from just your tie, that pen, and a quart of anti-freeze." "Let's make this fast, I'm late for my medication." "The foil wrapped around my head is to block out invisible rays." "I was once abducted by a UFO, and the aliens let me pilot their starship." "I brought my invisible friend, is that okay?" "I have the gift of second sight, and if you step on Flight 109, it will be your last!" Now that you've made a big impression, make sure you'll have plenty of time to expound upon your finer qualities. Consider handcuffing yourself to the interviewer's desk, or perhaps smear super-glue on your hand and grab them while shouting "Wonder twin powers, activate!" Conclude the interview as notably as you began it. A gratuity is always welcome, so palm the interviewer a crisp new dollar in the closing handshake while saying "Guess Mr. Washington and I have this job wrapped up, huh? (wink, wink)" And certainly don't forget the follow-up! Unless a restraining order has been obtained by the employer, call collect every hour thereafter to remind them of your sincerity. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:25:03 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: A Thought On The "GOD" Question Message-ID: E.J., Have you read any Spinoza, or Arne Naess & the original Deep Ecologists - some of them are currently thinking along those your lines. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 02:18:41 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: A Thought On The "GOD" Question Message-ID: <970324021840_-1471335103@emout10.mail.aol.com> The earth is not sacred, any more than a car is. You drive the car until it wears out and then you get a new one. The same is true of planets. We have universe full of them to choose from and all we need is the drive system to get them. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 07:58:26 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: A Thought On The "GOD" Question Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > The earth is not sacred, any more than a car is. You drive the car until it > wears out and then you get a new one. The same is true of planets. We have > universe full of them to choose from and all we need is the drive system to > get them. > > Chuck the Heretic > Yes, but a little maintenance and good driving and car care habits will make a good car last much longer. Only difference between a car and a planet is that if someone wants to take their car for granted and drive it into the ground in a year or two, its their business - but those who act with the same attitude towards the planet are making the choice for ever other person and species as well. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:54:50 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: A Thought On The "GOD" Question Message-ID: <970324135448_1916377389@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-03-24 10:18:18 EST, you write: >Yes, but a little maintenance and good driving and car care habits will >make a good car last much longer. Only difference between a car and a >planet is that if someone wants to take their car for granted and drive it >into the ground in a year or two, its their business - but those who act >with the same attitude towards the planet are making the choice for >ever other person and species as well. > Yep, and I choose for them to start looking for a new planet--FAST 'cause the asteroid is coming, the asteroid is coming :) (Sorry, been listening to Art Bell too much lately) Seriously, the earth is just a glorified hunk of rock. Now, one can make the case that there are certain things that are less wise to do than others, but when one starts to look for a spiritual reason, well the next step is trying to find a way to kill everyone who doesn't want to live a certain way. Whenever I see or hear the word "sacred" my skin begins to crawl. It looks like someone is trying to find an excuse to impose a view on everyone else, sort of like that loon Robert Mueller. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:31:26 -0500 From: Gilbert Arnold Subject: Re: A Thought On The "GOD" Question -Reply Message-ID: It seems to me that we are closer to destroying the planet than we are to having a functional drive system. This may have something to do about learning that the Earth is sacred and alive. Blessings, +Gilbert >>> JRC 03/24/97 10:17am >>> On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > The earth is not sacred, any more than a car is. You drive the car until it > wears out and then you get a new one. The same is true of planets. We have > universe full of them to choose from and all we need is the drive system to > get them. > > Chuck the Heretic > Yes, but a little maintenance and good driving and car care habits will make a good car last much longer. Only difference between a car and a planet is that if someone wants to take their car for granted and drive it into the ground in a year or two, its their business - but those who act with the same attitude towards the planet are making the choice for ever other person and species as well. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:46:59 +0000 From: Alan Subject: Re: A Thought On The "GOD" Question Message-ID: <6SO4XCADCyNzEw68@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970324135448_1916377389@emout06.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes > Whenever I see or hear the word "sacred" my skin begins to crawl. SACRED! hehehehehehehe! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:10:22 -0000 From: Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB Subject: RE: TS in Germany Message-ID: <01BC3887.078DB880@rvik-ppp-201.ismennt.is> ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC3887.079559A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi doss. I met the new GS in Germany, Ger Baron v.d. Osten-Sacken in Sweden two years ago, but I don't have a phone number. The address of the German Section is: Freiligrath-Ring 6, D-40878 Ratingen Germany. Ger is a very nice chap in every way. Hope this gets you somewhere. Einar. > From: M K Ramadoss[SMTP:ramadoss@eden.com] > Sent: laugardagur 22. mars 1997 20:25 > Subject: TS in Germany I had an inquiry about TS in Germany. I need a telephone number of the person in charge of TS (Adyar) in Germany. If anyone has the information, please let me know. mkr. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:55:22 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: RE: TS in Germany Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970324225522.0076dd58@mail.eden.com> Hi Thanks for the information. I will pass this on to the guy who was looking for a contact. I saw this request in one of the newsgroups. ..doss At 02:10 PM 3/24/97 -0500, you wrote: > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC3887.079559A0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Hi doss. > >I met the new GS in Germany, Ger Baron v.d. Osten-Sacken in Sweden two years ago, but I don't have a phone number. >The address of the German Section is: >Freiligrath-Ring 6, >D-40878 Ratingen >Germany. > >Ger is a very nice chap in every way. > >Hope this gets you somewhere. > >Einar. > >---------- >From: M K Ramadoss[SMTP:ramadoss@eden.com] >Sent: laugardagur 22. mars 1997 20:25 >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: TS in Germany > >I had an inquiry about TS in Germany. > >I need a telephone number of the person in charge of TS (Adyar) in Germany. > >If anyone has the information, please let me know. > >mkr. > > > > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC3887.079559A0 >Content-Type: application/ms-tnef >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > >eJ8+IhoTAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy >b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYADAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAUAAAAL >AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAPwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHRoZW9zLWxAdm5ldC5u >ZXQAU01UUAB0aGVvcy1sQHZuZXQubmV0AAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAEQAA >AHRoZW9zLWxAdm5ldC5uZXQAAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAEwAAACd0aGVvcy1s >QHZuZXQubmV0JwAAAgELMAEAAAAWAAAAU01UUDpUSEVPUy1MQFZORVQuTkVUAAAAAwAAOQAAAAAL >AEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAUfLQEEgAEAEgAAAFJFOiBUUyBpbiBHZXJtYW55AIIFAQWA >AwAOAAAAzQcDABgAEwAKABYAAQAjAQEggAMADgAAAM0HAwAYABMACgAWAAEAIwEBCYABACEAAAA5 >MTA5OTI4NDcwQTREMDExQTEwRTQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMAClBgEDkAYAYAQAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMA >JgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AKCw0QWHOLwBHgBwAAEAAAASAAAAUkU6 >IFRTIGluIEdlcm1hbnkAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvDiHBdGEkgmXpHAR0KEOREVTVAAAAAAeAB4M >AQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAEgAAAGFubmFzYkBpc21lbm50LmlzAAAAAwAGEFpnJWcD >AAcQ3gEAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhJRE9TU0lNRVRUSEVORVdHU0lOR0VSTUFOWSxHRVJCQVJPTlZE >T1NURU4tU0FDS0VOSU5TV0VERU5UV09ZRUFSU0FHTyxCVVRJRE9OVEhBVkVBUEhPTkVOVU1CRVJU >SEVBREQAAAAAAgEJEAEAAADaAgAA1gIAAGoFAABMWkZ1Eq171v8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNU >AgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbDAoMyA8YHEwKDxjMDxQIAcHJxEiATiHY0FDwP/X0KgAjPCdk78RhvMjU1 >AoAKgQ2xC2DAbmcxMDM5CvsS8gUMAWMAQCBIaSBkmm8EEC4KhQqFSSAHgEEFQHRoZSBuB9FHnwXw >C4AfgASQA4F5LB/iDCBCCsACICB2LmSgLiBPc3QJ8C0GEMxjawnwH7JTdwmAIhFAdHdvIHllEdEg >yGFnbyBgYnUFQB6wWR2AbicFQBHAdh8wYdggcGgCIB8xdQbQBJCLIVAKhVQfIWFkZBhwOQQRb2Yf >Ax/0BlFjdNZpIPEEADoeNkYYcAMQSmkJwGEfEC1SC4BnCCA2LAqFRC00MPg4NzgH8CmgKfEJ8AqF >Px/1Hc0gggQAJNEksHJ5WR9AaWMfMBGxcB+yZYkuI3dhLJ5Ib3AfMFcfEC3RK5B0BCB5CGAgvnMD >cAfQHyAYcB3NRQuAjwrAHc0K9ClgMTgwAtHwaS0xNCrgDME1swtVeRWyMTYKoANgIZAoECD+LTfX >Coc2iwwwN1YpIANwnyiQNm83dAyCBdAgSysxAwDAHYJbU01UUDorKZA89EAiki4FoG1dfzh/OY0G >YAIwOr87ywtgdY5nCxEjgAhwIDIyIVBDAMAjUTE5OTdDoDDOOhqgPt85jVRvQR87zLx1bCggC1Af >MBhwYwUgfwiQAjAm8ylgIYBE7z/uddxiaigBRw87y1QfqjPf+TTjMzY2VxylN1YesBHAxmQjcCIi >cXVpLkEBoP8IYEbBH6odzx9QCYAk0SGQ/0lAJQonBjDgEeAoQgOgEbKHK5AnAk7hKEFkeQrA/ilU >Tx4oJyAgMSUiEcAEIP8fEguAAhAgESgiIGBJMVwgDx8wSUAFQAeAIGtub/J3VP1tazO+T74LZBQi >F1IJCoUXkQBjkAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAQAAAEAABzAAsqiPgzi8AUAACDCgsNEFhzi8AR4APQAB >AAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AACoMA== > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC3887.079559A0-- > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:28:39 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Spiritual Madness Message-ID: <199703250828.AAA27951@proxy3.ba.best.com> Today, I listened to a tape of Carolyn Myss' lecture, Spiritual Madness, "a journey of the modern mystic through the dark night of the soul.". I am giving a poor summary of an inspiring lecture. Basically, it's about dealing with spiritual awakening in your normal life. With the recent events of mystical words being available for regular people instead of just being limited to monasteries, people are having to deal with the difficulties of incorporating spiritual awakening with their daily responsibilities. In spiritual madness, a person may encounter grand expectations, disappointments with spirituality, alienation from family and friends, and moodiness. The person going through spiritual madness has to learn to separate human order and purpose from Divine order and purpose. Divine power and order is different from the human conception of them. The person going through spiritual madness may feel that he/she should give up the mundane side of life, give up family and job, and pursue great work in service of God. What the person need to realize is that in spirituality, there is "no such thing as an insignificant task." Developing spirtually may involve dealing with a mundane job, or dealing with a difficult relationship. Also, in developing a dialogue with God, the person may be expecting that the spiritual path will bring clarity and order to chaos. In addition, the person may deny his/her shadow side, feeling that those are not godly traits. Instead, she/he need to get rid of separating good and bad, and realize that God is all of that. Do not feel that bad events are because of his/her own action. Judge not that event, but go with it. She/he need to realize that God is not only there during good times, but that God is especially there during bad times, for this is a time of learning, an opportunity for spiritual growth. What the person need to realize is that being spiritual includes learning how to hold your center through disappointments, learning to see God's guidance through the mundane life, and learning to not compromise his/her soul while living in temptation. In going through spiritual madness, a person may become critical of anything that he/she may feel is not helping her/him develop spiritually. The person may become critical of more "unevolved" souls. To the contrary, the person should be looking at him/herself for improvement and not others. A person's job is "not to be God's critic". The person should have "no expectations, judge not, keep [himself/herself] centered" and bless his/her environment by his/her being. He/she should learn to go with guidance, and realize that guidance is in every little event. Everything that happens is for a reason. Realize that no matter what he/she is doing, he/she is "serving [his/her] life." If the signs indicate that a change is needed, do not be afraid to go with change, do not be afraid to let go of what was. "Mysticism has gone mainstream." Because we need to live regular lives instead of being in a monastery, we need to combine the ego and God. In the past, when a person wants to develop spirtually, she/he goes to a monastery where all temptations were kept out, and where all items needed for spiritual development were given to him/her. This makes it easy to release one's ego to God. However, the modern mystic has to have a strong ego in order to resist anything that is detrimental to spiritual life, and to maintain spiritual life. Thus, the mystic learn to be "in the world, but not part of the world", and learn to not compromise his/her soul to be in the world. Eventually, spiritual madness will end in which the person learns to keep his/her center through chaos and change, learn to live in the world, and learn to release expectations of God. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:29:34 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: For those of you in the corporate world Message-ID: <199703250829.AAA29277@proxy3.ba.best.com> Hee, hee, hee.:oD Now, Titus, do you have any employment tips for philosophy or art majors? Kym and I could use that one. We all know that a philosophy degree is just as useful as an art degree. What shall I call myself, an Aesthetic Coordinator? Shall Kym call herself an Inner Communication Specialist? Time to get those glamour shots... Thoa P.S. Actually, I'm proud of my art degrees. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 02:34:12 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: In Case Anyone Is Interested: Message-ID: <33373989.1580478@mail.earthlink.net> Comet Hale-Bopp is closest to Earth today, March 22, at around 20 deg. Aries, also the day before a partial lunar eclipse at 3 deg. 35 Libra/Aries. This is also two days after the Spring Equinox! And those recent Aquarian Harmonic Convergences and stelliums included not only many asteroids, but ... Hale-Bopp! Comets are chunks of ice and interplanetary dust, unlike asteroids which are lumps of dirt and minerals. Personally I resent them calling comets "dirty snowballs". Stardust is not exactly common filth. Comets were born in the outskirts of our solar system, the Oort Belt, where they've remained for 4.6 billions years, since the Big Bang. So looking at them is really looking back in time. Sometimes they become jolted out of this belt - perhaps when Earthlings need some new sort of archetypal stardust - and begin an orbit around our Sun. Hale-Bopp's orbit is 2,000-3,000 years. It is 120 million miles from Earth and was spotted 1-1/2 years ago, providing a rare oppotunity for a long look and examination of its gas molecules. It has 2 tails!! One white, made of dust particles; and one blue, made of gases. Before March 20, look east and to the left before sunrise; afterward March 20 look west, to the right at sunset. I think that since they are so ancient and suddenly move into our orbital perspective is very profound; something extremely primeval and primordial, yet new for our consciousness. Or some sort of reminder. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:26:26 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Funeral after Funeral Message-ID: <970325172625_-1873014421@emout02.mail.aol.com> "Science progresses, funeral by funeral." - Max Planck Somebody wrote--> We can and probably will produce human clones, but they will be soulless. The potential for harm seems overwhelming. Thoa writes--> The idea that the human clone will not have a soul is ridiculous. However a human being came to be created, if s/he has the faculty for intellect and feeling, then s/he has a soul. To me, a clone is like an identical twin of the original, with the exception that it is much younger. The only way for a human clone to not have a soul, is if scientists have decided to remove the development of the brain, in the brave new world hope of having ready made transplant organs for the original (awful!). Richard Ihle writes--> The Principal Theosophical Philosophy (PTP), perhaps, may also have to progress funeral by funeral. At least it seems to me that the question of human cloning may have a greater impact on the infamous capitalized (solidified, HPB-doctrinal) "Theosophy" than anything else in more than a century. In short, it might be time to think about getting the casket out for some aspects of the PTP. . . . Personally, I have long thought that the “monad” was one of Theosophy’s (the movement) major problems. There is something about ~monads~ which seems to make people want to regard them as invisible billiard balls. All these billiard balls: they get "contaminated" with "desire-seeds" and have to come into and go out of incarnation again and again until all delusion about their Real nature is corrected--at least according to most versions of the PTP. Anyway, now that human cloning has become a realistic possibility, the doctrinal (T)heosophists may have a big job ahead of them re-articulating some of the old verbiage about monads. For one thing, they must be able to explain what all the different billiard balls, all needing different lessons, will do at some possible future time when the choices for incarnated physical, emotional, and mental "vehicles" have been reduced to just a few "improved" models. For another thing, (T)heosophists may also want to take this opportunity to re-work what seems to me the grossly anthropomophized stories of how monads “decide” and “choose” in a between-lifetime condition what their next birth situations should be according to the lessons they still need to learn etc. >From my "psychogenetic" point of view, ~monad~ has never seemed a very helpful synonym for ~soul~, anyway. The difference between ~monad~ and ~soul~ is one of ~psychological distance~. "I love you heart and ~monad~" just doesn't have the right ring to it, does it? It is a personal thing, I suppose; however, my monad has always seemed like a stranger, whereas my soul seems like ~me~. But there may be a more a significant problem: what and how you can “know” about your monad seems to be much different from what and how you can know about your soul. With ~monad~ you are always checking back with HPB to see if you have the right idea about Rounds, Root-Races, etc.; with ~soul~ you just sit down to meditate and ~watch~. With ~monad~ it always seems to turn into a battle of the scholars; with ~soul~ you are the expert. Is all the accumulated “information” about monads really intended to be ~literal~ explanations of ~literal~ Rounds, Root-Races etc. which pertain to invisible-billiard-ball-like entities? Or could much of the PTP really be a grand ~figurative~ system for conveying esoteric knowledge about something more personal and intimate--the ~soul~ and its psychogenetic cycles and advances toward full Self-realization? I suppose it is easy to guess my own answer. However, does this mean that I negate reincarnation and all other things which have been suggested in the old PTP context? Not at all. I believe the Theosophical world is ready for a "paradigm shift," but I do not believe the shift will be toward extinguishing itself or repudiating everything which has gone before. No, what I think will happen is the simple rejection of what I call “BACKWARDS THEOSOPHY.” In my view, ~backwards theosophy~ is the merely the scholarly preoccupation with, and authority-mongering of, other people's answers rather than cultivating one’s own transcendental resources for answering the same existential questions. Can one really determine the validity of the PTP simply by studying it and concluding that it is “internally coherent” and/or not-really-at-odds with known scientific facts? Of course not. I agree it is helpful to study THE SECRET DOCTRINE and other things for a variety of reasons, naturally, but in the end the only possible way to determine validity is to approach it ~theosophically~. Indeed, ~theosophy~ with a small ~t~ is the epistemological method of the mystic, and its virtue is that it may be able to go where science, scholarship, and even intense ratiocination cannot go. Unfortunately, theosophy may have no greater enemy than Backwards Theosophy. Whereas theosophy emphasizes that each individual must continue to develop himself or herself toward a better Vantage--i.e., nearer to the One--in order to ~See~ things for himself or herself, Backwards Theosophy seems to care little for personal Seeing and more about ~believing~ on the basis of “established” authority. A theosophist reads THE MAHATMA LETTERS and tries to ~See~ what is suggested there for himself or herself; a Backwards Theosophist reads the same thing and immediately believes he or she has been given an indisputable, indefectable Gift which obviates the need for any personal Seeing. A theosophist remains an individual Searcher after reading THE MAHATMA LETTERS; a Backwards Theosophist joins the Finder’s Club and thinks about running for an office. . . . In my opinion, however, the real possiblity that humans will be sooner or later be cloned presents a significant problem for the Finder’s Club. Already, there is some discussion of whether a clone can actually have a soul. This may not be such a nonsensical question, especially for those who are attached to the billiard-ball paradigm. After all, what use would all the unique (because of unique learned/unlearned remaining lessons) billiard balls have for exact replicas of the same person with the same physical, emotional, and mental assets and limitations? And what would happen to the old conception of karma--I mean, would there be nothing a billiard ball could do in one lifetime which would result in a better body the next? I don’t know . . . perhaps clone funeral after clone funeral is really a comin’: Monads! if I were you, I’d get on down here before it’s too late. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 00:30:11 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Funeral after Funeral Message-ID: In message <970325172625_-1873014421@emout02.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >It is a personal thing, I >suppose; however, my monad has always seemed like a stranger, whereas my soul >seems like ~me~. Hmmm. Seems to me that there are two different aspects here (in this case of Richard). My experience of what *I* describe as 'monad' vis a vis myself us that it seems like a stranger - and a cold-seeming one at that. I would also echo "my soul seems like ~me~." Now who is this ~I~ that experiences these other two people ... ? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 97 13:50:27 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: You heard it here first Message-ID: <199703261850.NAA27723@leo.vsla.edu> On my last visit to my mother's, she said "You sure were right." I said, "About what?" She answered, "A month ago you predicted that there would be a major scientific and technological breakthrough in the month of February, based on astrology." Me: "Oh, yeah! I forgot all about that. So, what do you mean I was right?" She: "All this business about Dolly!" Me: "Oh! I didn't even think of that!" I had posted that prediction based on looking for past occurrence of Jupiter/Uranus conjunctions in Aquarius, and every time there were major breakthroughs in science or technology. Looks like it happened again. Although actually Dolly was born a while back, it was when the conjunction was joined by the Sun, Mercury and Venus that the story became public. Human cloning brings us close to the secret of immortality in the physical, and for all its negative potentials, does seem a very Aquarian Age development. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:29:35 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: [Fwd: April 1] Message-ID: <333B3B1F.ED9@sprynet.com> > From: James Randi --- Wizard > Subject: April 1 > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:20:40 -0500 The James Randi Educational Foundation will have an Open House for friends and associates on April 1 (the anniversary of our incorporation) between 6 and 8 in the evening. We are presently getting together the plans for a conference -- probably in December -- and we invite inquiries. Both the Miami Space Planetarium and the Fort Lauderdale Museum of Science & Discovery are affiliating with the JREF, and we look forward to many close and productive associations between these agencies and the Foundation. So far, not one of the tens of thousands of nursing professionals who administer -- and charge handsomely for -- Therapeutic Touch, has agreed to try for the US$1,100,000 prize the JREF offers. No one. I think we're rocking a boat full of otherwise very comfortable quacks. This April 1st celebration will also mark the event you've all waited for with such anxiety: the announcement of the annual Pigasus awards. These highly coveted trophies will be distributed by the usual means, and the winners will be announced here the evening of April 1st. Suggestions have been pouring in, and any last-minute nominations you may care to submit will be accepted up until Sunday night. As usual, the competition has been fierce. The year 1996 was one full of pseudoscience, claptrap, silly claims, and quackery. A final note: I see that a medical provider named "Oxford Health Plans" has decided to offer acupuncture as a covered treatment. This means that subscribers will pay for yet another variety of quackery. It's rumored that Oxford will also offer eye of newt and toe of frog, bat-wing poultices, and unicorn sweat ointment. Now all we need is a hospital named Yale to accept Therapeutic Touch as a legitimate therapy. Why not? Hospitals in Florida do. Shudder..... And can you imagine that we might even see a tenured Harvard professor endorsing alien abductions? Nah. That's too preposterous. James Randi. ********************************************************************* SUBSCRIBING/UNSUBSCRIBING/CHANGE OF ADDRESS ********************************************************************** Requests to be added to or deleted from the randi-hotline mailing list, must be sent to the service address: Internet: randi-hotline-request@ssr.com PLEASE BE PATIENT. All requests are processed before each new mailing to the list and these can be widely spaced. You *will* be added if your request was sent to the correct address. ----------------- CONTACTING RANDI: ----------------- James Randi Educational Foundation phone: +1 954 467 1112 201 SE Davie Boulevard fax: +1 954 467 1660 Fort Lauderdale FL 33316-1815 http://www.randi.org U.S.A. Note: Please send e-mail that can be handled by JREF staff to randi@randi.org DO NOT SEND UNSUBSCRIBE/SUBSCRIBE REQUESTS TO THESE ADDRESSES! PERSONAL messages to randi, or messages requiring his personal attention: 76702.3507@COMPUSERVE.COM --------------------------- BACK ISSUES OF THE HOTLINE: --------------------------- On the Web: http://www.mindspring.com/~anson/randi-hotline/ Via FTP: USA: ftp.netcom.com directory: /pub/an/anson/Mailing_Lists/geller-hotline ftp.ssr.com: directory: /Randi Please try netcom.com first, since ftp.ssr.com is very busy. EUROPE: mercurio.iet.unipi.it directory: /pub/Randi Our gratitude goes to Anson Kennedy and Massimo Macucci for providing the ftp sites at netcom and unipi.it, respectively. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:42:13 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Karma or what Message-ID: <199703281458.JAA15375@ultra1.dreamscape.com> I would like to add to what Toa said about this person who got shot or shot himself. I didn't read it, but I read Toa's comments. >>We are not all crazy -- >>It is all in our heads, >>You have to seek your own salvation -- >>In the end the final truth is between the lines, >>The narrow path gets harder to find -- >>It is not what is done but rather a state of mind. >> >>Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j.}`-`{ >> http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html >>"On this Path effort never goes to waste and never a failure" "It is all in our heads". Serge King's first Kahuna principle is "The world is what you think it is". The whole Kahuna philosphy is built up on this principle, so it jives with what Toa is saying. What we perceive of the world, of our surroundings, is whatever reaches us via our senses, which is a little more distributed than our heads, but I think Toa is speaking figuratively. Serge's healing system is then built up on that a good Shaman can change belief systems to agree with whatever the healee believes, and that (s)he can then heal using that system. The shaman has his (her) own belief system, though, and when using another's system still has his own in mind 5% or so. Serge also teaches several levels of viewing things. I don't remember the whole description but, like first level is linear and contains linear time, most modern inventions, allopathic medicine, and herbs for their medicinal values. The second level contains spiral time, reincarnation. The third level contains symbols, which includes herbs as symbols, like a 4 leaf clover for luck. The 4th level uses identity, you identify with what you're trying to understand or heal , again 95%, and then lovingly heal yourself. It's all in our heads. I echo seeking your own salvation. It's a Buddhist principle as well as a theosphical one, and I like it, because it doesn't blame any one else, including God or Karma or your parents for what eventually happens to you. If you can figure out a way to resolve your dilemma the Karma changes. I was taught that the Theosophical belief is that we are on earth to learn, to learn just that, until we become godlike people. Toa, I don't think the Path is narrow, because that's a limiting thought. Seems to me that the Path must be as broad as there are people to tread it, because each of us approaches it from a different angle. I haven't figured out yet how that jives with being very loving and very ethical, needed qualtities, which seem to narrow the path ... maybe it's because Love and ethics need to be applied to the situation at hand, which is always different. And sometimes what's ethical in one instance, isn't in another. When you say "It's not what is done, but the state of mind" I guess that fits in with the end of my last paragrqaph. but there's also that the Masters said "To us, motive is everything." You've raised a lot of good issues. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:11:34 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Monads, exoteric vs esoteric Message-ID: <199703281612.LAA10286@NetGSI.com> >Personally, I have long thought that the "monad" was one of Theosophy's (the >movement) major problems. There is something about ~monads~ which seems to >make people want to regard them as invisible billiard balls. All these >billiard balls: they get "contaminated" with "desire-seeds" and have to come >into and go out of incarnation again and again until all delusion about their >Real nature is corrected--at least according to most versions of the PTP. Richard, I agree wholeheartedly. I have tried to clear up some of the confusion with my Enochian Monad Model, which simplies the whole monad doctrine, and makes its workable (at least to me), but because I have mixed it in with magic, theosophists don't seem to want to hear it. HPB, G de P, and others, have muddied the monadic waters to the point where few really understand what it all means. I think that Eldon does, but he is rare. > For one thing, they must be able to >explain what all the different billiard balls, all needing different lessons, >will do at some possible future time when the choices for incarnated >physical, emotional, and mental "vehicles" have been reduced to just a few >"improved" models. And they won't be able to do it, because this simplified and exoteric scheme is so outdated as to be plain silly. >For another thing, (T)heosophists may also want to take >this opportunity to re-work what seems to me the grossly anthropomophized >stories of how monads "decide" and "choose" in a between-lifetime condition >what their next birth situations should be according to the lessons they >still need to learn etc. Again, this is a highly exoteric version of what really goes on. I, for one, think that its time a deeper and more esoteric story is told. The idea of Earth being a schoolhouse and that monads come here to learn lessons has enough truth in it to be pernious, but misses the real reasons for incarnation. As I have said many many times, the idea that monads need "lessons" or can somehow improve or go "higher" is silly enough to make me laugh, and I get depressed when I realize just how many folks fall for this stuff. Maybe something like cloning is what the TSs need to rethink their positions--which are not really "wrong" so much as surface, shallow, trite, and in need of some deeper substance. Jerry S. Member, TI Who believes that spirals only exist within circles From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:23:37 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: <199703281723.JAA09246@proxy3.ba.best.com> I was sad to hear about the tragic mass suicide in San Diego of members of the Heaven's Gate cult. This reinforces my belief in Krisnamurti's statements regarding thinking for yourself instead of placing yourself in the hands of an organization or a guru. Being a part of an organization should remain just that, and not a letting of an organization run your life for you. It angers me that someone would take advantage of an individual's need to seek beyond their surroundings, the lies of a money-oriented culture, the lies of established churches, and the lies of societal values. It also angers me that someone used the person's loneliness and need to belong. My philosophy in my search for truth is that whenever someone makes you lose your center by giving you negative emotions, by disturbing you with artificiality, or by controlling you-go far, far away from that person. Other signs would be if there are attempts to change your life by trying to change your personal habits or by encouraging estrangement from family and friends. With that in hand, I am not afraid to discover any new things knowing that I make my own choices. Cult incidents only hurt organizations who are really trying to allow room for discovery of truths without limiting an individual's free will. I wonder, now, how a group encouraging a discussion on astrology, the metaphysical, and the other worldliness might immediately stir up a cry of "cult." I read in the newspaper today a comment on how cults are springing up all over the internet, inviting people to join them, people who are already alienated from society, who built their life around the internet instead of being with real people. I was a bit offended by that since I only find the computer and the internet to be a positive development. I have my life outside of the computer, but it is only within the computer that I am able to give extended, thoughtful conversations and receive the same (okay, maybe sometimes not so thoughtful). Try talking about HPB's theories when you're in a social scene. Even I can't stand hearing someone go on and on about something. I would rather just read and comprehend it at my own pace. The internet provides me with information I may not find anywhere else. Like the world, I see the internet as a non-judgmental containment of all that is in the world, good and bad. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:26:58 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Karma or what Message-ID: <199703280526.VAA25131@proxy2.ba.best.com> E.J.: > Suicide, Accident, Or Homicide? >On March 23, the medical examiner viewed the body of Ronald Opus and >concluded that he died from a gunshot wound to >the head caused by a shotgun. Investigation to that point had revealed that >the decedent had jumped from the top of a >ten-story building with the intent to commit suicide (he left a note >indicating his despondency). As he passed the 9th floor on >the way down, his life was interrupted by a shotgun blast through a window, >killing him instantly. Neither the shooter nor the >decedent was aware that a safety net had been erected at the 8th floor >level to protect some window washers and that the >decedent would not have been able to complete his intent to commit suicide >because of this. > >Ordinarily, a person who starts into motion the events that lead to his >death with a suicide intent ultimately commits suicide >even though the mechanism might not be what he intended. That he was shot >on the way to certain death nine stories below >probably would not change his mode of death from suicide to homicide. But >the fact that his suicide intent would not have been >successful under any circumstance caused the medical examiner to feel that >he had homicide on his hands. > >Further investigation led to the discovery that the room on the 9th floor >from whence the shotgun blast emanated was occupied >by an elderly man and his wife. He was threatening her with the shotgun >because of an interspousal spat and became so upset >that he could not hold the shotgun straight. Therefore, when he pulled the >trigger, he completely missed his wife and the pellets >went through the window striking the decedent. > >When one intends to kill subject A, but kills subject B in the attempt, one >is guilty of the murder of subject B. The old man was >confronted with this conclusion, but both he and his wife were adamant in >stating that neither knew that the shotgun was >loaded. It was the longtime habit of the old man to threaten his wife with >an unloaded shotgun. He had no intent to murder her; >therefore, the killing of the decedent appeared then to be an accident. >That is, the gun had been accidentally loaded. >But further investigation turned up a witness that their son was seen >loading the shotgun approximately six weeks prior to the >fatal accident. That investigation showed that the mother (the old lady) >had cut off her son's financial support and her son, >knowing the propensity of his father to use the shotgun threateningly, >loaded the gun with the expectation that the father would >shoot his mother. The case now becomes one of murder on the part of the son >for the death of Ronald Opus. >Further investigation revealed that the son became increasingly despondent >over the failure of his attempt to get his mother >murdered. This led him to jump off the ten-story building on March 23, only >to be killed by a shotgun blast through a 9th story >window. >The medical examiner closed the case as a suicide. >(Dave's Note=My dad always said when it's your time to go it's your time to >go.) > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >We are not all crazy -- >It is all in our heads, >You have to seek your own salvation -- >In the end the final truth is between the lines, >The narrow path gets harder to find -- >It is not what is done but rather a state of mind. > >Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j.}`-`{ > http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html >"On this Path effort never goes to waste and never a failure" > >------------------------------ I'd say that we choose our action (that is, if we are sane enough to know what we are doing. Who knows, maybe the insane also made a conscientious choice. It's just that it is illogical to us.), and that the outcome is karma. Now, as far as the legal aspect of it (in the U.S., anyway), the only concern is with the fact that the son was killed, and that the father was the one who shot him. The father would probably get punished for recklessly waving the gun, and especially for not checking its content. I doubt that he would serve any jail time, just excruciating trial time. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:40:31 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Cloning Message-ID: <199703281840.KAA19688@proxy2.ba.best.com> Richard, A couple of nights ago, I had an intense discussion with a genetic researcher in one of my martial arts classes. Of course, his stance is all on the side of science. Even the idea of growing a human clone for body parts is not objectionable to him, just extremely useful. To him, as long as its consciousness was prevented from developing, it should not matter. He did not consider that some things are SACRED, SACRED, SACRED (this should give you butt pimples, Chuck), and that there are ETHICAL, EMOTIONAL, and religious factors to consider. Nuf said on my part, although I would be curious as to what others have to say. BTW, Richard, as a man, you're always thinking with your balls (monad balls) :o). Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:12:14 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Changing from digest form Message-ID: <199703282012.MAA13927@proxy2.ba.best.com> Hi, The instructions for changing from digest form to individual form was put out a few digests back. I didn't think I would want to change my digest format. There's something great about having things nicely ordered and numbered. However, I changed my mind. Could anyone tell me how to do that? Thanks. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:39:43 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: <970328163937_1518479452@emout07.mail.aol.com> Rule one: Never take anything the news media says seriously. They exist to sell stomach potions to senior citizens whose false teeth don't fit and need iron suppliments. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:13:51 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Rule one: > > Never take anything the news media says seriously. They exist to sell > stomach potions to senior citizens whose false teeth don't fit and need iron > suppliments. > > Chuck the Heretic > Rule Two: It may not be that great of an idea to take anything the Heaven's Gate people say seriously either. The potions they sell are apparently filled with something other than iron. (All that occured to me was to wonder why they thought the UFO people would *want* them ... if I were a UFO captain, I'd probably be feeling right about now the way the Governer of Florida felt in the late 80's when Fidel Castro, in one of his more humorous moves, decided to empty his country's institutions for the criminally insane by allowing them all to "escape" to Miami ... "who the hell *are* these people, and how can we get rid of them?") -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:53:30 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Monads, exoteric vs esoteric Message-ID: <199703290053.QAA12307@palrel1.hp.com> "Jerry Schueler" wrote: > Again, this is a highly exoteric version of what really goes on. > I, for one, think that its time a deeper and more esoteric story is told. > The idea of Earth being a schoolhouse and that monads come here to learn > lessons has enough truth in it to be pernious, but misses the real > reasons for incarnation. As I have said many many times, the idea > that monads need "lessons" or can somehow improve or go "higher" > is silly enough to make me laugh, and I get depressed when I realize > just how many folks fall for this stuff. Maybe something like cloning > is what the TSs need to rethink their positions--which are not really > "wrong" so much as surface, shallow, trite, and in need of some > deeper substance. My interpretation: Perhaps revealing again my profound and wondrous gaps in theosophical knowledge, I'll loosely translate Monad as soul. The soul being a portion of God is perfected, but it initially it has no vehicle to carry it. Slowly a vehicle in the material world develops - initially gross, but with evolvement more and more refined. It is the *vehicle* which requires the lessons on how to "embody" the soul. In eternal time, the "body" reflects the brightness which animates it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 00:25:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970329062536.0069d814@mail.eden.com> HI Krishnamurti's stated his position from which he never wavered -- In spiritual matters there is no authority or no leader no path. What is generally happening is that when anyone assumes the position of being a (spiritual) leader -- either de facto or by means of a formal written or other requirements of the followers to commit to implicitly obey and follow the leader -- even disregarding one's conscience -- it turns into control of the followers (either overtly or covertly). Each one of us can find of examples ourselves. Many followers would be willing to turn over themselves, their souls, properties and everything to the cause represented by the leader. It is not limited to less educated men and women of limited intelligence or learning. High formal learning, scholarship etc has nothing to do with if someone is willing to do it. You can find examples yourself. In addition, very frequently, the leader's assistants misinterpret and misuse and exploit the followers - for their own ends -- either in this world (fame, position, titles -- who does not like being made to feel important by one means or the other) -- in the next world (may be the promise of sitting at the right hand of God or one his assistants) --- next life or even in the *belief* it is going to somehow move one along spiritually faster track than the rest of the ordinary human beings (so that one can somehow feel superior to the rest of the laggards.) Far too often we have seen disasters when you have spiritual leaders leading a flock. The very ancient dictum -- Man (woman) know thyself, keeps one well planted firmly in oneself, because you know you have depend solely one yourself and are responsible to your actions. You are going to learn about yourself first hand -- not second hand. Anyone will tell you that independent thinkers are very difficult to deal with because they think for themselves and are not led by other's ideas or thinking. I think this very ancient approach is productive of a lot of good and prevent lot of problems. I think K saw this very clearly and tried to impress on this simple approach. As time passes on we may see the wisdom of it. Here is my 2 cents worth. MKR PS: I think we have something to discuss and increase traffic here. At 12:30 PM 3/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >I was sad to hear about the tragic mass suicide in San Diego of members of >the Heaven's Gate cult. This reinforces my belief in Krisnamurti's >statements regarding thinking for yourself instead of placing yourself in >the hands of an organization or a guru. Being a part of an organization >should remain just that, and not a letting of an organization run your life >for you. It angers me that someone would take advantage of an individual's >need to seek beyond their surroundings, the lies of a money-oriented >culture, the lies of established churches, and the lies of societal values. >It also angers me that someone used the person's loneliness and need to belong. > >My philosophy in my search for truth is that whenever someone makes you lose >your center by giving you negative emotions, by disturbing you with >artificiality, or by controlling you-go far, far away from that person. >Other signs would be if there are attempts to change your life by trying to >change your personal habits or by encouraging estrangement from family and >friends. With that in hand, I am not afraid to discover any new things >knowing that I make my own choices. > >Cult incidents only hurt organizations who are really trying to allow room >for discovery of truths without limiting an individual's free will. I >wonder, now, how a group encouraging a discussion on astrology, the >metaphysical, and the other worldliness might immediately stir up a cry of >"cult." I read in the newspaper today a comment on how cults are springing >up all over the internet, inviting people to join them, people who are >already alienated from society, who built their life around the internet >instead of being with real people. > >I was a bit offended by that since I only find the computer and the internet >to be a positive development. I have my life outside of the computer, but >it is only within the computer that I am able to give extended, thoughtful >conversations and receive the same (okay, maybe sometimes not so >thoughtful). Try talking about HPB's theories when you're in a social >scene. Even I can't stand hearing someone go on and on about something. I >would rather just read and comprehend it at my own pace. The internet >provides me with information I may not find anywhere else. Like the world, >I see the internet as a non-judgmental containment of all that is in the >world, good and bad. > >Thoa > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 00:33:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Monads, exoteric vs esoteric Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970329063324.006a3134@mail.eden.com> Here is my 2 cents worth. Monad, to me, appears to be simply a concept and we tend to extrapolate physical conceptions to a nonphysical concepts that no one has a first hand knowledge of. So we can, each in our own way, but speculate. We all can just hope someday in a future manvantara we may get to know first hand what it is all about. Until then, I am going to wait for it. Have of lot backlog of things on earth to take care of in the meanwhile. mkr At 07:59 PM 3/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >"Jerry Schueler" wrote: > >> Again, this is a highly exoteric version of what really goes on. >> I, for one, think that its time a deeper and more esoteric story is told. >> The idea of Earth being a schoolhouse and that monads come here to learn >> lessons has enough truth in it to be pernious, but misses the real >> reasons for incarnation. As I have said many many times, the idea >> that monads need "lessons" or can somehow improve or go "higher" >> is silly enough to make me laugh, and I get depressed when I realize >> just how many folks fall for this stuff. Maybe something like cloning >> is what the TSs need to rethink their positions--which are not really >> "wrong" so much as surface, shallow, trite, and in need of some >> deeper substance. > >My interpretation: > >Perhaps revealing again my profound and wondrous gaps in theosophical >knowledge, I'll loosely translate Monad as soul. The soul being a portion of >God is perfected, but it initially it has no vehicle to carry it. Slowly a >vehicle in the material world develops - initially gross, but with evolvement >more and more refined. It is the *vehicle* which requires the lessons on how >to "embody" the soul. In eternal time, the "body" reflects the brightness >which animates it. > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 00:36:51 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Changing from digest form Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970329063651.006b1670@mail.eden.com> At 03:17 PM 3/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, >The instructions for changing from digest form to individual form was put >out a few digests back. I didn't think I would want to change my digest >format. There's something great about having things nicely ordered and >numbered. However, I changed my mind. Could anyone tell me how to do that? >Thanks. > >Thoa > Hi Just send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with the following in the body of the msg: set theos-l mail ack That is all to it. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 03:05:56 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: <970329030555_47613941@emout20.mail.aol.com> I remember running into some of their stuff on the usenet last year and I was marvelously unimpressed. On the other hand, we must be thankful that Annie Besant isn't alive now. She would have loved to have all the theosophists commit suicide in her honor, but the thought just never occured to her. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 03:25:16 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: ps to karma or what Message-ID: <199703290841.DAA02231@ultra1.dreamscape.com> I left out an important component of Serge King's second level: Everything is connected, which makes ESP possible. ESP is not possiblee on the 1st level. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 04:05:01 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: heaven's gate Message-ID: <199703290920.EAA11876@ultra1.dreamscape.com> To add to Toa's positive statement of the Internet, I love it too, and I know my friends do too. There are no theosophists in Syracuse, where I live, and theos-l gives me a chance to talk about Theosophy and related matters. Also I'm getting to be more & more sedentary at my stage of life, and the computer gives me somewhat of a chance to socialize, maybe not the same as face to face, but lots better than not at all. However, I live with a bunch of older people, most of whom are afraid of computers, because they're really too old to learn how to work them, so I'm forever having to tell these guys that the Internet, to many people, is something much more positive than dirty sex and hanging on to cults. That's all the newspaper hardly bring about the Internet, so that's what they pick up. In my building, they're all shocked about these 38 people who committed suicide. When they show TV pictures of the guy who led the cult, I can't look at him. He looks like a ghoul. It's a sad commentary on mind over matter, or what lonely people won't do, and believe in, to find a group to belong to. To me it highlights that one must choose one's belief system with great care, and a great deal of thought and weighing. I agree with Toa, as, I think, all thinking Theosophists do. "Work out your own salvation with diligence." and not on someone else's tail ... unless that tail is tried and true, according to your own judgement. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 23:50:54 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Message-ID: <3344aace.754680@mail.earthlink.net> ...THE FIRST EASTER BUNNY... by Francine M. O'Connor (ASCII Art by joan stark) __ /^\ .' \ / :.\ This is the story of a long-eared rabbit / \ | :: \ who couldn't learn to do the bunny hop. / /. \ / ::: | His ears were floppy, his feet were sloppy, | |::. \ / :::'/ he'd hippity hop, then he'd trip and plop. | / \::. | / :::'/ `--` \' `~~~ ':'/` / ( So this little rabbit developed the habit / 0 _ 0 \ of staying awake when the sun went down. \/ \_/ \/ He'd stay up all night, -== '.' | '.' ==- till the morning light, and /\ '-^-' /\ practice his hopping just outside of town. \ _ _ / .-`-((\o/))-`-. _ / //^\\ \ _ On the first Easter morn, ."o".( , .:::. , )."o". just before dawn, \o o\\ \:::::/ //o o| He was startled by a bright \ \\ |:::::| // / and blinding light. \ \\__/:::::\__// / And Jesus was there in the \ .:.\ `':::'` /.:. / shimmering glare, \':: |_ _| ::'/ smiling at that funny bunny's plight. jgs `---` `"""""` `---` Don't worry, little lad, and don't be so sad, .-"-. for humankind will celebrate this special day. .'=^=^='. You must bring the word to every beast and bird /=^HAPPY^=\ that I have risen and am in the world to stay. :^=EASTER!=^; |^=^=^=^=^=^| You should've seen that cottontail hop away, :^=^=_|_=^=^: feeling mighty proud to be the chosen one. \=^= | =^= / Though this story is quite old, it can now be retold `.= | ==.' to make little children smile on Easter morn. `~~~` /`\ /`\ (/\ \-/ /\) H A P P Y E A S T E R )6 6( >{= Y =}< Lorraine Day /'-^-'\ (_)""-(_). /* ((* *'. | *)) * *\ | * ((* * / \ *)) * .' jgs '-.((*_.-` =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Only a giant can comprehend a giant's strength, a dwarf can at best have only a very vague and imperfect idea of giantly might. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j.}`-`{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity -- and I'm not sure about the former" - A. Einstein From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 23:34:49 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970329062536.0069d814@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes > The very ancient dictum -- Man (woman) know thyself, keeps one well >planted firmly in oneself, because you know you have depend solely one >yourself and are responsible to your actions. You are going to learn about >yourself first hand -- not second hand. Anyone will tell you that >independent thinkers are very difficult to deal with because they think for >themselves and are not led by other's ideas or thinking. > > I think this very ancient approach is productive of a lot of good >and prevent lot of problems. I think K saw this very clearly and tried to >impress on this simple approach. As time passes on we may see the wisdom of it. It *causes* a lot of problems. Those who are power freaks will *move* "Heaven's Gate" to keep independent thinkers out, as many on this list can testify. I went to a local 'Green' fair today, full of ecological and similar worthwhile causes - plus a certain amount of ego-tripping stuff. One stall had nothing but books by *one* man, tapes (with his picture, bearded and gray of course), invitations to seminars by the same guy (flyers with - guess what - his picture on them) AND (aaarrrrgh!) the real McCoy sat behind the stall. The production quality of the books and tapes etc. was superb, suggesting there must be monry and/or a following behind this man (who I had never heard of before, and from the look of him, hope never to again). Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 17:56:02 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970329235602.006ade40@mail.eden.com> The following msg may interest some. The mirror site is working and accessible. mkr ======================= > From: "R. S. Gumban" > Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 10:55:05 +0800 > Subject: Re: beyond the body On 27 Mar 97 at 22:07, GDVanT@aol.com wrote: gv: see http://www.heavensgate.com/ rg: Here is a mirror site: http://www.in-search-of.com/heavensgate/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 23:25:28 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: ALERT: White House attacks crypto on U.S. soil! (3/28/1997) Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- ============================================================================== ___ _ _____ ____ _____ _ / _ \| | | ____| _ \_ _| | THE CRYPTO BATTLE HAS BEGUN! | |_| | | | _| | |_) || | | | CLINTON ADMINISTRATION PROPOSES CONTROL OF | _ | |___| |___| _ < | | |_| ENCRYPTION FOR AMERICANS ON U.S. SOIL |_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| (_) March 28, 1997 Do not forward this alert after May 1, 1997. This alert brought to you by: Center for Democracy and Technology Eagle Forum Electronic Frontier Foundation Voters Telecommunications Watch Wired Magazine _____________________________________________________________________________ Table of Contents What's Happening Right Now What You Can Do Now Background What's At Stake Supporting Organizations _____________________________________________________________________________ WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW On March 26, 1997, the Clinton Administration proposed draft legislation which would, for the first time, impose DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online. In its current form, the draft bill seeks to impose a risky "key-recovery" regime which would compel American citizens to ensure government access to their private communications. Law enforcement and national security agents would not even need a court order to access private decryption keys. Congress is currently considering three separate bills which would prohibit the government from imposing "key-recovery" domestically, and encourage the development of easy-to-use, privacy and security tools for the Net. As more and more Americans come online, the Administration's plan is a giant step backwards and would open a huge window of vulnerability to the private communications of Internet users. Americans expect more when conducting private conversations with their doctors, families, business partners, or lawyers. Please read the Alert below to find out what you can do to protect your privacy online. ________________________________________________________________________________ WHAT YOU CAN DO 1. Adopt Your Legislator Now is the time to increase our ranks and prepare for the fight that lies a head of us in Congress. The time to blast Congress or the White House with phone calls and emails will come, but now is not the appropriate moment. Instead, please take a few minutes to learn more about this important issue, and join the Adopt Your Legislator Campaign at http://www.crypto.com/adopt/ This will produce a customized page, just for you with your own legislator's telephone number and address. In addition, you will receive the latest news and information on the issue, as well as targeted alerts informing you when your Representatives in Congress do something that could help or hinder the future of the Internet. Best of all, it's free. Do your part, Work the Network! Visit http://www.crypto.com/adopt/ for details. 2. Beginning Monday March 31, call the White House Internet public interest advocates continue to work the Hill in support of the three true encryption reform bills in Congress, Pro-CODE, SAFE, & ECPA II. If you still feel a need to voice your opinion, however, you can call the White House to express your opinion. Step 1 - Beginning Monday March 31, call the White House Call 202-456-1111 9am-5pm EST. Ignore the voice mail survey and press '0' to get a comment line operator. Step 2 - Tell them what you think about intrusions into your privacy! Operator: Hello, White House comment line! SAY YOU: I'm calling to oppose president's Internet encryption bill. THIS -> It infringes on the privacy of Americans. We need a solution to the encryption issue that protects privacy, and this is not it. Operator: Thank you, I'll pass that along to the President. 3. Spread the Word! Forward this Alert to your friends. Help educate the public about the importance of this issue. Please do not forward after May 1, 1997. _____________________________________________________________________________ BACKGROUND Complete background information, including: * A down-to-earth explanation of why this debate is important to Internet users * Analysis and background on the issue * Text of the Administration draft legislation * Text of Congressional proposals to reform US encryption policy * Audio transcripts and written testimony from recent Congressional Hearings on encryption policy reform * And more! Are all available at http://www.crypto.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ WHAT'S AT STAKE Encryption technologies are the locks and keys of the Information age -- enabling individuals and businesses to protect sensitive information as it is transmitted over the Internet. As more and more individuals and businesses come online, the need for strong, reliable, easy-to-use encryption technologies has become a critical issue to the health and viability of the Net. Current US encryption policy, which limits the strength of encryption products US companies can sell abroad, also limits the availability of strong, easy-to-use encryption technologies in the United States. US hardware and software manufacturers who wish to sell their products on the global market must either conform to US encryption export limits or produce two separate versions of the same product, a costly and complicated alternative. The export controls, which the NSA and FBI argue help to keep strong encryption out of the hands of foreign adversaries, are having the opposite effect. Strong encryption is available abroad, but because of the export limits and the confusion created by nearly four years of debate over US encryption policy, strong, easy-to-use privacy and security technologies are not widely available off the shelf or "on the net" here in the US. A recently discovered flaw in the security of the new digital telephone network exposed the worst aspects of the Administration's encryption policy. Because the designers needed to be able to export their products, the system's security was "dumbed down". Researchers subsequently discovered that it is quite easy to break the security of the system and intrude on what should be private conversations. This incident underscores the larger policy problem: US companies are at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace when competing against companies that do not have such hindrances. And now, for the first time in history, the Clinton Administration has DOMESTIC RESTRICTIONS on the ability of Americans to protect their privacy and security online. All of us care about our national security, and no one wants to make it any easier for criminals and terrorists to commit criminal acts. But we must also recognize encryption technologies can aid law enforcement and protect national security by limiting the threat of industrial espionage and foreign spying, promote electronic commerce and protecting privacy. What's at stake in this debate is nothing less than the future of privacy and the fate of the Internet as a secure and trusted medium for commerce, education, and political discourse. ______________________________________________________________________________ SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS For more information, contact the following organizations who have signed onto this effort at their web sites. Center for Democracy and Technology http://www.cdt.org Press contact: Jonah Seiger, +1.202.637.9800 Eagle Forum http://www.eagleforum.org Press contact: Phyllis Schlafly, +1.314.721.1213 Electronic Frontier Foundation http://www.eff.org Press contact: Stanton McCandlish, +1.415.436.9333 Voters Telecommunications Watch http://www.vtw.org Press contact: Shabbir J. Safdar, +1.718.596.7234 Wired Magazine http://www.wired.com Press contact: Todd Lappin, +1.415.276.5224 ______________________________________________________________________________ end alert ============================================================================== --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 23:10:48 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Exploitation Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970330051048.006846b0@mail.eden.com> Incidents like San Diego group only points to the fact that many are searching and some fall willing prey to the cults. There may be many groups around, whose leaders have taken advantage -- quite honestly and -- followers following quite willingly allowed themselves taken advantage of -- If we look back to the early correspondence from the Real Founders of TS, the emphasis on helping the humanity is in such unshakeable ground and Their farsight shows up. All the dazzling Theosophical philosophy and tenets are likely to be misused by individual leaders -- who quite honestly being mislead themselves and thus misleading the followers. Something to think about. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 23:13:12 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970330051312.00692970@mail.eden.com> At 06:59 PM 3/29/97 -0500, you wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970329062536.0069d814@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss > writes >> The very ancient dictum -- Man (woman) know thyself, keeps one well >>planted firmly in oneself, because you know you have depend solely one >>yourself and are responsible to your actions. You are going to learn about >>yourself first hand -- not second hand. Anyone will tell you that >>independent thinkers are very difficult to deal with because they think for >>themselves and are not led by other's ideas or thinking. >> >> I think this very ancient approach is productive of a lot of good >>and prevent lot of problems. I think K saw this very clearly and tried to >>impress on this simple approach. As time passes on we may see the wisdom of it. > >It *causes* a lot of problems. Those who are power freaks will *move* >"Heaven's Gate" to keep independent thinkers out, as many on this list >can testify. I went to a local 'Green' fair today, full of ecological >and similar worthwhile causes - plus a certain amount of ego-tripping >stuff. One stall had nothing but books by *one* man, tapes (with his >picture, bearded and gray of course), invitations to seminars by the >same guy (flyers with - guess what - his picture on them) AND >(aaarrrrgh!) the real McCoy sat behind the stall. The production >quality of the books and tapes etc. was superb, suggesting there must be >monry and/or a following behind this man (who I had never heard of >before, and from the look of him, hope never to again). > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk What is the name of this man and his organization? May be interesting stuff? ..mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 02:44:58 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: ALERT: White House attacks crypto on U.S. soil! (3/28/1997) Message-ID: <970330024457_-1437121499@emout07.mail.aol.com> I would love to see how they could enforce it. Their computers make mine look modern. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:59:06 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Monad & Spirit & Soul Message-ID: <199703302302.SAA02443@NetGSI.com> >Perhaps revealing again my profound and wondrous gaps in theosophical >knowledge, I'll loosely translate Monad as soul. The soul being a portion of >God is perfected, but it initially it has no vehicle to carry it. Slowly a >vehicle in the material world develops - initially gross, but with evolvement >more and more refined. It is the *vehicle* which requires the lessons on how >to "embody" the soul. In eternal time, the "body" reflects the brightness >which animates it. Sounds interesting, but I would rather equate Monad with spirit than soul. I agree with your idea that "body" needs evolutionary development, to allow more and more spiritual imbodiment. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 21:02:18 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Never too Late Message-ID: <199703302302.SAA02445@NetGSI.com> In the "never too late" category, at 54 I just received my LPC and can now hang out a shingle and counsel the unwary. Life is good. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 21:11:43 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Pathless Path Message-ID: <199703302302.SAA02447@NetGSI.com> > Krishnamurti's stated his position from which he never wavered -- In >spiritual matters there is no authority or no leader no path. Doss, I agree with K with the exception of developing ethics and compassion at a early point. If we do our ethics at stage one, our compassion at stage two, then from there on out we are on our own. The only real authority in spiritual matters is our own inner divinity, and the first two stages of the path should be well along prior to its introduction. However, arousal of one's inner divinity without some degree of initiation always leads to inflation of ego, and the whole point of the spiritual path is the denigration of ego. Thus, while we probably should take our own path at our own speed, the warnings, hazards, and pitfalls given to us by those who have gone before are ignored at our own peril. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 21:18:15 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Monad as Consciousness Message-ID: <199703302302.SAA02450@NetGSI.com> >Here is my 2 cents worth. Monad, to me, appears to be simply a concept and >we tend to extrapolate physical conceptions to a nonphysical concepts that >no one has a first hand knowledge of. So we can, each in our own way, but >speculate. We all can just hope someday in a future manvantara we may get to >know first hand what it is all about. Until then, I am going to wait for it. >Have of lot backlog of things on earth to take care of in the meanwhile. Doss, thanks for sharing. Personally, I don't see the monad as just a concept. I see it as G de P described it--a consciousness center. We don't have to wait until the next manvantara, or even the next life to experience this. A little meditation is all we need. Just think of consciousness without any attributes or characteristics--pure or naked consciousness-- and you pretty much have the idea. As long as you hold onto concepts you won't ever experience pure consciousness. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:40:27 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Krishnamurti in view of Heaven's Gate Message-ID: <199703310056.TAA05835@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Dear Doss, This way of thinking of Krishnamurti convinces me of his Theosophical roots, and we Theosophists, I think got this idea from the Buddhists. "Work out your own salvation with diligence." I'm with you. I firmly believe in making up your own mind. At least that's what HPB teaches. It's a most useful teaching. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:57:24 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: something to think about Message-ID: <199703310113.UAA08765@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Doss writes: > All the dazzling Theosophical philosophy and >tenets are likely to be misused by individual leaders -- who quite honestly >being mislead themselves and thus misleading the followers. > > Something to think about. If our dazzling philosophy was being misused by individual leaders, then lets apply the same principle. Let's have a look at it, and see if it suits us, and if it fits into our style of thinking. Everyone has his/her own set of beliefs. I think it's best, if everyone adopts what resonates with their own belief vibes. What doesn't, one discards. That way, it's not so easy to get fooled. Of course, if you're very lonesome and alienated, then you might fall for any stinking thing where they take you in with a hug and tell you how nice you are. I don't know what you can do in a case like that either, except for a third person to try to disuade you. Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:02:20 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970330051312.00692970@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >What is the name of this man and his organization? May be interesting stuff? Barry something. It looks as though he IS the organisation. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:58:57 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Krishnamurti in view of Heaven's Gate Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970331055857.006969b8@mail.eden.com> At 07:57 PM 3/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Doss, > >This way of thinking of Krishnamurti convinces me of his Theosophical roots, >and we Theosophists, I think got this idea from the Buddhists. "Work out >your own salvation with diligence." I'm with you. I firmly believe in making >up your own mind. At least that's what HPB teaches. It's a most useful teaching. > >Liesel > Liesel: If you go back to many of HPB's statements in Key to Theosophy, you will find that they are the same that K had put it in a different way. That's why I am today having a better understanding of some of the fundamental applications of Theosophy in daily life, much of it due to K's statements. .doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:04:37 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: something to think about Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970331060437.0069ff88@mail.eden.com> At 08:18 PM 3/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >Doss writes: > >> All the dazzling Theosophical philosophy and >>tenets are likely to be misused by individual leaders -- who quite honestly >>being mislead themselves and thus misleading the followers. >> >> Something to think about. > > >If our dazzling philosophy was being misused by individual leaders, then >lets apply the same principle. Let's have a look at it, and see if it suits >us, and if it fits into our style of thinking. Everyone has his/her own set >of beliefs. I think it's best, if everyone adopts what resonates with their >own belief vibes. What doesn't, one discards. That way, it's not so easy to >get fooled. Of course, if you're very lonesome and alienated, then you might >fall for any stinking thing where they take you in with a hug and tell you >how nice you are. I don't know what you can do in a case like that either, >except for a third person to try to disuade you. > >Liesel > Liesel: you have hit the nail on its head. many of the cults have known to target individuals who are lonely and in trouble. I had heard of an individual who during his viet nam days got into drugs and a cult helped him to get out of the addiction. later has become a very successful businessman and the cult continued to exploit his gratitude. the cult was one which got into trouble with law in so many countries. While this man has been helping in many social issues, he still does not see the dark side of the cult. Someone like him whose heart is in right place would have been immensely helpful to his fellow beings had he been able to appreciate Theosophy. He had been to our local lodge and that is where I met him 20 years ago. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:05:23 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Heaven's Gate Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970331060523.006a3070@mail.eden.com> At 08:18 PM 3/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >In message <2.2.32.19970330051312.00692970@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss > writes >>What is the name of this man and his organization? May be interesting stuff? > >Barry something. It looks as though he IS the organisation. > >Alan >--------- >THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Working for a New Age: >http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ >E-mail: TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk > I am sure he will surface in cyberspace soon. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:09:53 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Pathless Path Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970331060953.006a3994@mail.eden.com> At 06:07 PM 3/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >> Krishnamurti's stated his position from which he never wavered -- >In >>spiritual matters there is no authority or no leader no path. > >Doss, I agree with K with the exception of developing ethics and >compassion at a early point. If we do our ethics at stage one, >our compassion at stage two, then from there on out we are >on our own. The only real authority in spiritual matters is our >own inner divinity, and the first two stages of the path should be >well along prior to its introduction. However, arousal of one's inner >divinity without some degree of initiation always leads to inflation >of ego, and the whole point of the spiritual path is the denigration >of ego. Thus, while we probably should take our own path at >our own speed, the warnings, hazards, and pitfalls given to us >by those who have gone before are ignored at our own peril. > >Jerry S. >Member, TI Dear Jerry: I am wondering if ethics and compassion are to be developed concurrently and if they could be treated as separate. Based on my own experience, I am not the same person I was 10 and 20 years ago and I wont be in 10 years from now. All the warnings, hazards and pitfalls others have pointed out could be useful and one has to keep an open mind and make a decision for themselves. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:13:19 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Monad as Consciousness Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970331061319.006964b0@mail.eden.com> At 06:07 PM 3/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Here is my 2 cents worth. Monad, to me, appears to be simply a concept and >>we tend to extrapolate physical conceptions to a nonphysical concepts that >>no one has a first hand knowledge of. So we can, each in our own way, but >>speculate. We all can just hope someday in a future manvantara we may get >to >>know first hand what it is all about. Until then, I am going to wait for >it. >>Have of lot backlog of things on earth to take care of in the meanwhile. > >Doss, thanks for sharing. Personally, I don't see the monad as just a >concept. >I see it as G de P described it--a consciousness center. We don't have >to wait until the next manvantara, or even the next life to experience >this. A little meditation is all we need. Just think of consciousness >without any attributes or characteristics--pure or naked consciousness-- >and you pretty much have the idea. As long as you hold onto concepts >you won't ever experience pure consciousness. > >Jerry S. >Member, TI > Dear Jerry: Thanks for sharing. There are so many things in the world -- seen and unseen -- that I do not know of. So I try to keep an open mind. The point I was trying to highlight was the difficulty in trying to bring down to physical level and explain some of the non physical things that cannot be explained -- can only be experienced. ..doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:30:31 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: A good account of Internet and its use Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970331063031.00673850@mail.eden.com> The following is extracted from Time Daily. And may interest some. ..doss ======================================================== The Power of Virtual Community On the Web, the lines can blur between the normal and the fringe In the onslaught of pop psychology that has followed the grim discoveries at Rancho Santa Fe, so-called mind control experts have speculated that the fault somehow lay in the tech world, that something about the Web explained Heaven's Gate and the isolation of its members from the cushioning norms of society. Not true. The cult had been around for 22 years, and had seen better days. Most of its members were Web novices at best. Yet in some ways, the Web was made for groups like this. For it is not the culture of the Internet, but its utility as a two-way means of communication that attracts and connects militias, hate groups and wacky fringe movements. The profoundly American, truly revolutionary character of the Internet is fundamentally egalitarian. Everyone can take the stage online, even the nuts. But as the initial reaction to the cult's Web connection proved once again, the wild, unfiltered nature of the Internet presents a difficult quandry for the freedom-loving American society, particularly for parents. Like the content of television, newspapers, magazines, books and radio, the messages on the Internet range from the profound to the outrageous. But the Net makes it cheaper and easier than most mainstream-dominated media to broadcast your message to a large potential audience. Anyone can create web pages. Most Internet service providers and online services offer customers server space to publish their efforts on the Net. Whether anyone will look at them is another question. The radical difference between the Internet and other mass media is that while anyone can make a bid for attention at http something or other, there is no central audience regularly tuning to channel 2 or 4 or 7 -- no easy way to command major market share. If websites were channels, there would be tens of millions of them on the Net, which helps explain why every muffler shop, pizzeria and hardware store seems to have one, as well as every crank. And that is precisely what gives parents pause when they wonder what strange ideas and people their children may encounter on the electronic frontier. As a readily accessible soapbox, the Net attracts the same groups that have always tacked pamphlets on grocery store and college bulletin boards and placed tiny ads in the backs of journals to get the word out. As disturbing as the quasi-philosophical blather on the Heaven's Gate website may be, it never got much attention until the networks and Internet publishers (including Pathfinder) sought it out as legitimate news in the wake of the deaths. As far as anyone has been able to determine, the Heaven's Gate cult used the Net mainly to memorialize itself, or to generate freelance income by producing commercial web pages for local firms. But a growing number of other cults and splinter groups use the Net to try to recruit new members, just as advertisers use the Net to sell products to consumers. Unlike TV or radio, the Net offers a very personal way to contact the audience. Some people are particularly vulnerable to email and chatroom conversations with folks they may meet in the intimate setting of the computer screen in their own den or bedroom. In that sense, the Net offers the same sort of intrusive contact with people in their homes that has made telemarketing a multibillion-dollar business. Just as lonely people often are vulnerable to pitchmen who call them at home, some maladjusted or immature people are unusually receptive to online conversations with strangers or to information that is different than what they see around them in their communities. The communication and the ideas can feel more personal or important than they are. While most people are mature enough to ignore the nuts or the nosy people and use this rich medium for communicating with their friends or seeking out information, children may not be. For parents who worry that their children may meet dangerous strangers amid the enormous information riches on the Net, the best advice is that any child who is not old enough to go to the Mall alone will need some guidance when wandering the Internet. Computers are the most valuable source of free education since the library. But they are not baby-sitters. The Internet, the most powerful communications tool of this generation, was never designed for that. -- Janice Castro From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 01:47:50 +0100 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Request Message-ID: Bee Brown writes >Hi Alan, >I have had a request from a fellow Theosophist here at HQ to find out >if there is a TS Branch in Colchester, Essex or near by. Seem there is >someone there who has just suffered a loss and the enquirer wanted to >refer that person to a TS Branch. Can anyone help? Alan