From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:19:15 -0500 (EST) From: Lmhem111@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 872 Message-ID: <970201001914_948644529@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-01-31 21:17:28 EST, you write: << You may find the idea of a home base too restricting. I'm guessing if you do have one, it's Theosopy. If so does Theosophy serve well for this purpose? >> Theosophy is the fountain head, so to speak, of esoteric teachings. It supplies the basis for the subsequent exploration of the field of metaphysics. Actually, theosophy, the Ageless Wisdom, is found in some degree in all religious and philosophical expressions. Madame Blavatsky said that "theosophy is the shoreless ocean of universal truth." Because of its expanse, we can never know it completely being limited as we are in time and space. However, I feel that an eclectic approach to theosophical study is necessary for me in order to uncover aspects of it which were previously hidden. Besides the study of texts supplied by the well-known proponents of theosophy, HPB, WQJ, AB, Sinnett, CWL, Hodson, Jinarajadasa, Taimni, etc., I found the reading of authors outside that familiar spectrum cast new insights on the philosophia perinnis. There are many things, for instance, which I reject in Steiner's presentation of the philosophy yet I find his concept of the Luciferic and Ahrimanic forces helpful in explaining the dynamic of energies at play in the three lower planes of manifestation. The Luciferic forces are the restless powers of illusion on the spiritual plane and the Ahrimanic forces are the energies of the heavy hand of materiality. Man stands in the center as the anthropos, the element of balance and equilibrium. In a sense, he is really talking about the three gunas, rajas (Lucifer), tamas (Ahriman) and sattva (man). Here, the teachings of Vedanta throw light on Steiner. One thing leads to another. Mouni Sadhu, whose guru was Ramana Maharshi (also Paul Brunton's), ties it all in with his treatise on the Tarot, which he calls the "quintessence of Hermetic Occultism." Alice Bailey emphasizes the Masters and the psychology of the Seven Rays. Sri Aurobindo, a master of the English language, wrote The Life Divine, which reconciles the transcendental and the cosmic aspects of Being. Astrologers, like Alan Leo and C.E.O. Carter of the Astrological Lodge of the TS (London), helped me understand in a new way the influence of the Macrocosm on the Microcosm (man). To understand the voluminous works of Swinburne Clymer one needs to study the ritual and monographs of the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor (Max Theon). Yogananda's books, particularly his autobiography, revealed to me early on that the world is indeed magical as Jerry Schueler maintains. Sai Baba, very simply, taught me to love. This is just a very brief and incomplete summary, by mentioning only a few authors out of many, of how theo-sophia (Brahma Vidya) can be a stream of consciousness, leading one on to new vistas and ever expanding horizons. LunarPitri From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:24:47 -0500 (EST) From: Lmhem111@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 872 Message-ID: <970201002446_1246253367@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-01-31 21:17:28 EST, you write: << Ann wrote: >What is your purpose and personal satisfaction in "debunking" the >the Masters? >> If one debunks the Masters, then one might as well discard reincarnation as well because the Mahatmic state of consciousness is the logical conclusion of the doctrine of rebirth. Otherwise, palingenesis becomes a senseless round of experience going nowhere. LunarPitri ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:54:27 -0500 (EST) From: Lmhem111@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 873 Message-ID: <970201005426_1478900343@emout18.mail.aol.com> >From what I know, the only thing common between Bing and some of the Elected Leaders of Co-Masonic Order is that their skin is *not* white. There is no Bing's group. It is my impression that he was not even a member of Co-M. I never said that Bing was a member of Co-M. I'm also aware that he's an unpaid lecturer on the TSA circuit. I was responsible for having someone from overseas mail him a check for a $1000 during that period when he was down and out. I was only able to give him a small contribution myself because my income has never been very great. I refuse to get into skin pigmentation politics with you, my friend, because frankly I don't know anything about it. My statement was based on information given to me by a Co-M member for whatever it's worth. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:39:11 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: To Doss Message-ID: >Doss: >Many of the things K said are the same that HPB and Buddha said. May be he >is using a different simple language. Some years ago when my six year old >son watched a K tape, I asked him if he learnt anything. His response was >that K says don't listen anyone. Make up your own mind. > >Have you seen any of K's video tapes? I have found them very interesting. > >..doss The more I look at philosophies, the more I see truths in all of them, and some things I don't agree with. That's why I cannot go totally under one umbrella. I don't discount organizations. Instead of the mentality of BELONGING to an organization, we should have the mentality of being a part of an organization. I am actually new to Krisnamurti. I don't know where I've been, but I have never encountered information regarding theosophists until lately. I will see whether I can find his tape somewhere. By this time, everyone should know my reading list, right? I keep on saying I will read this and that. Thoa =o) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 00:58:28 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS Election - A Good Inside Account Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970201065828.0068ff00@mail.eden.com> Hi I am posting an excerpt from Ernest Wood's book "Is This Theosophy?" -- an extremely rare book indeed. The posted extract gives you an idea of the politics of elections in TS. It is a good account. It appears that the model that was used at that time seems to have not changed. Enjoy the message. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 00:58:29 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: TS Elections - An Excerpt Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970201065829.0068b3e0@mail.eden.com> The following is an excerpt from "Is This Theosophy?" by Ernest Wood which gives a good account of how Arundale's election was electioneered/politiked. Enjoy the msg. ---------------------------- GOOD-BYE, PROUD WORLD ! -- Ernest Wood MY wife and I settled down from our wanderings in our little house at Adyar. In 1930 I acted as Treasurer as well as Secretary, as in that year Mr. Schwarz took a year's leave to visit Switzerland, his native land. In correspondence with Dr. Besant, who went to Europe, I conducted the business of the Society, held meetings and edited the Adyar Theosophist. The Theosophist had been removed to America, because it could be carried on better from there; but shortly afterwards the Adyar Theosophist was started to replace it at Adyar, to satisfy a condition in Colonel Olcott's will. When Bishop Leadbeater returned to live again at Adyar at the end of 1930, not knowing that Dr. Besant had said in Chicago that the magazine had been transferred to America by Master's orders, he brought forth a statement from the Masters that it should be returned to Adyar, as it had never been their desire that it should be removed from there. I also found time to continue my Sanskrit studies for several hours every day, reading with a number of pandits in succession the original source books of all the principal darshanas (views) or schools of Hindu philosophy. After what I had been through I was immensely impressed by the straightforwardness and thoroughness of the Indian philosophers. Their very quality of honesty makes them tedious reading for most people, but I could conceive nothing more agreeable than their method, according to which each writer collects together all the possible arguments against his own view and systematically demolishes them, with argument and counter-argument, bringing in every implication and side-issue that he can think of. No suppressio veri here. Advocacy, yes, clear and decisive, but always the position that the reader is to be the judge of truth, and is to be provided by the writer with every bit of information or of thought which may bear on the subject. It is curious that the very completeness of old Hindu thought has brought about some apparent inactivity of the modern Hindus in that direction. India is full of philosophers, but they do not rush into print with every new thought that strikes them. They know that generally it is a very old thought, and that it has already been well presented for those who are sufficiently interested to take the trouble to read. And he who will not take the trouble to read and think is not worth bothering about there can be no kindergarten in philosophy. I found something of the same attitude towards art in Athens. It was obvious that the Greeks are still philosophers and artists. Yet they do not display it. On visiting the museums in Athens I put to some friends the question: " Why do you not do these things now ? " The answer was: " Why should we ? We cannot improve upon these." Thousands upon thousands of exquisite shapes continued their unwinking millennial gaze at us from the shelves of the museums, and seemed to add a conclusive note to the argument. But my wife and I were not Greeks. We took the trouble to collect nearly fifty specimens of Greek pottery to take back with us to India - what a trouble, taking these as passengers' luggage through Cyprus, Palestine and Egypt- some of them bought from village potters by the roadsides, some of them ancient pieces from Athens and Kyrenia. It was an unusual collection of things that we accumulated in our little house at Adyar, for side by side with Greek and Oriental and South American pottery and Buddhist sculpture there reposed my collection of paper weights - stones from everywhere, from the pyramids of Egypt and the bathing beach of Limassol, to " the Chilliwack potato" and quartz from the Himalayas bearing shining traces and sometimes more than traces of rare metals all picked up in rambles in the wild. Always fond of nature and of architecture, in the midst of our groves of banyans and bamboos, and flowering trees and palms, I decorated our house with Spanish and Greek gardens, with oriental patios and fountains and tanks of goldfish. We brought the goldfish ourselves from Cyprus by hand, and they gave us no little trouble on the way. When we were trying to enter a train from Alexandria to go to Cairo the Egyptian officials stopped us, saying: " No live stock allowed on the train." We disputed whether goldfish were live stock or not, but a local friend knew a better way, and after a little whispering in a corner the goldfish were allowed to continue their journey, no one caring further whether they were alive or dead, since certain small discs of life-supporting matter had gone to enhance the life of its recipient. On the Italian boat from Port Said to Bombay the authorities were good enough to furnish the goldfish with a bath-tub, and on the train from Bombay to Madras they reposed in another bath-tub in the bathroom without even the cognizance of the authorities. Still, the most charming addition to our house was my wife's collection of animals her tame mongoose and monkey, and her deer and peacock, for which I made an enclosed Japanese garden, with proper artificial mountain, and stepping-stones, and stone lanterns and statues, and an irregular pond complete with red lacquered bridge and a fountain in the centre. With these she refreshed herself in the intervals of her work for village schools and trade unions and co-operative stores. But I must not linger to detail these things. I will only say that the mother mongoose probably saved my life on one occasion, when she pulled out a big snake that was hiding in my bed and dispatched it on the floor. She would play charmingly, too, pretending that my wrist was a snake and performing her unique feat of coiling into a ball and jumping from the middle of her back with the force of her uncoiling. She loved to sleep with human company except when her babies came from time to time. Mongooses never have more than two babies at a time, but once ours had three. Someone else had a little baby mongoose and she happened to catch sight of it. At once she pounced upon it and carried it away upstairs to a little den which she had under the roof, and for some time thereafter she ran about trailing three youngsters instead of two. At the end of 1930 Dr. Besant returned from Europe in broken health, and never recovered. Her memory with regard to material affairs had been failing a little for some time. It was not unnatural at her advanced age - she was eighty-five-and would not have seemed so pathetic had not a few devotees who looked after her physically tried to hide the facts of her decline. She spent her time in reading and quiet reflection, they announced, and was really doing more work than ever before by radiating beneficial forces upon the world. But the fact was she did not attend to the practical work any more because she could not. The Society was carried on by the officers (the Vice-President came over from America) and the Executive Committee. The last business transaction I did for her was the purchase of a Ford car. Three times she told me to buy it- twice after it had been bought. Before completing the purchase I asked her if she had no objection to going about in a Ford instead of a Rolls-Royce. Her reply was characteristic: " I shall be proud to co-operate with Mr. Ford, even in this small way." Afterwards, some devotees persuaded her that it was not dignified for her to ride in a Ford. She called me: " I have decided not to buy that car." I explained that it was already done. "What do you mean," she demanded imperiously, "by buying a car without my orders ? " She had forgotten. I had not the heart to tell her that her memory was at fault. I apologized for the "misunderstanding," and by a stroke of luck sold the car without loss the next day. In I93I Dr. Besant made a new will. In it she directed that her living quarters (the traditional residence of the President of the Society) should as far as possible be left in their then condition, as a sort of shrine, and put in the custody of the Outer Head of the Esoteric (Eastern) School of Theosophy. This was quite contrary to her earlier character, and contrary to the scrupulous regard which she had always had for the property of the Society, for the E.S. was a separate organization, and she had always before carefully distinguished it from the Society. From about that time her strength gradually declined, without specific disease or pain, until she died in the September of 1933 ~and was cremated with great pomp and ceremony at Adyar. A few years earlier I would have considered severance from Dr. Besant a great calamity. Now it was a relief, for really Annie Besant had left us years before. In these last years her few utterances were almost confined to expressions of anxiety lest the Society become " crystallized." In the Convention of I93I she appeared for a few minutes, and then for a brief moment she recovered her former fire, and flung to us again the heroic message that each should seek the divine within himself and never in any external place or form. That statement was of a piece with a birthday resolution which she had written down on the preceding first of October: "I will patiently try to tune my daily life into fuller harmony with that of the divine Master who lives within my heart." It was quite contrary, in my opinion, to the outlook and methods of the group led by Bishop Leadbeater, which grasped her name for their activities and beliefs, and afterwards indeed went so far as to claim the word Theosophy for these and deny it to the views of Krishnamurti and others agreeing with him. Krishnamurti unconsciously helped them in this, for he spoke often against " your theosophy." Theosophy had become identified in his eyes with the operations of what was really a sect, inasmuch as it claimed evolutionary advantages (the modern equivalent of heavenly rewards) for those who believed in it, and had " sufficient intuition " to follow and obey its leaders. My own last conversations with Dr. Besant were saddening, they revealed so intimately the pathos of all material greatness. She could speak only of the " little fairies," and wonder why so many pretty little animals died so young. Her loving heart was never impaired by her decline in other respects. It shone all the brightier when she was released from material affairs. The world overcame her. It broke her strength and her mind, but it could not stain her heart, though it were betrayed by many a kiss. Now commenced a painful period for me. As Secretary of the Theosophical Society I had to call for nominations and to conduct the election to the office of President - a process which was to take nine months, since the electors were scattered all over the world. Sure that if I were President the Society would not be one thing in the proscenium and another behind the scenes, many members requested me to accept nominations. I did so, and on the same day resigned from the office of Hon. Secretary. Only one other nomination came in - that of Bishop Arundale - and he had the great advantage of me that he claimed to be the candidate wanted by Dr. Besant and her Master, though she had left no evidence to that effect, but had on the contrary repeatedly declined to express an opinion or do anything that might influence the members with reference to her possible successor. It had happened that seven years earlier she had accepted for a time an occult statement made to her that Bishop Arundale was to be her successor, and in two private and very affectionate letters to him (in which she said she did not wish to miss any hint of the Master's desire) she mentioned it said she thought he would make a splendid President and advised him to begin some pre-electioneering in America. These old letters, with others, Bishop Arundale gave to Mr. Jinarajadasa shortly before the death of Dr. Besant, and Mr. Jinarajadasa circulated facsimiles of them as a first move in his election campaign on behalf of his nominee, Bishop Arundale. In reply to this some members who had been closely in touch with Dr. Besant requested the President pro tem, Mr. A. P. Warrington, to prevent backstairs propaganda by printing Dr. Besant's letters and also their own testimony to her later views, in fairness to the electorate. But he declined to publish anything more than the names of the candidates, and would not allow me a statement of policy, even in the paid advertisement pages of the magazine. We then had the extraordinary spectacle of a great worldwide Society conducting its presidential election (which was of the nature of a referendum on policy) with no statements published in the presidential magazine - in which the business affairs of the Society had always theretofore been published - and no publication of the electoral roll. The Society was thus delivered into the hands of other organizations, for Mr. Jinarajadasa had the advantage of possessing lists of active workers in the Eastern School and other movements to whom to send out his circulars. Those enthusiasts could be relied upon to do all the necessary propaganda among the members of the Society all over the world. Mr. Jinarajadasa followed up with one circular letter after another. With reference to my memorial lecture on ``Dr. Annie Besant and the Theosophical Movement " he circulated and supported an electioneering canard to the effect that in it I had made a studied depreciation of her. He did not quote a single word of the lecture nor allude to my refutation of the canard in the Indian newspaper which first printed it. He misrepresented my policy, ignoring my manifesto, and only one of the General Secretaries in various countries who printed his letters gave me an opportunity to reply. At last came a circular saying that supporters of Professor Wood - acting no doubt under instructions - accused Dr. Besant of misuse of funds. A French lady had so written to him. He circulated her statement in lands as widespread as Europe, India and Australia, with his own testimony to Dr. Besant's honesty. - That was going too far. I insisted upon a public explanation, which was ultimately forthcoming - too late, however, to repair the damage done. Though I could forgive him for the harm repair the damage done. Though I could forgive him for the harm done to my name among Theosophists and also for thus depriving me of many votes, my regard for Dr. Besant made it impossible for me to forget that some of this mud flung round the world would surely stick to her. Thus the election which ought to have been a courtly record of policy and opinion - a manifestation of brotherhood in a society established "to form a nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity" - degenerated into something worse than any political election I have ever known. Alas, that every experiment in brotherhood should fail, on reaching a modicum of material prosperity. Since Krishnamurti's announcement that he would have no disciples, and that he disapproved the methods prevailing in the Society, there had been a stream of resignations and lapses, which lost the Society 28,000 (out of 45,000) members in between and the time of the election. This decline was not due to economic depression, as some thought; the biggest part of it took place in the year of the boom, and besides, the Society had always maintained its upward trend through previous depressions and wars. The result of all these things was that I received less than five thousand votes while my opponent scored more than fifteen thousand. It was a victory for Bishop Leadbeater, who had at last attained practically full control during Dr. Besant's illness though he himself, then at the age of eighty seven, did not live to see the result of the election. He was entirely sincere in wanting to guide things by his own psychic experience. But in such an atmosphere psychic experiences were bound to come to many people - and to conflict. One afternoon, as I was about to enter the bathroom to wash my hands (I had been gardening) I was told by an inner voice to go at once to the library. When I arrived there I found the Master standing near the table, and the whole room throbbing - as it appeared to me - with his aura. He thanked me, for himself and his colleagues, for what I had done in connection with the election. I record. The true inwardness of it I do not know. I am quite prepared to believe that a thought-form or entity which can be created by a group of people, having psychic influence but no intelligence of its own, can hover above all and impress each sensitive person according to his own subconscious desire. The new President, Mr. Arundale - he now dropped the use of his title of Bishop outside the church activities, as he had announced his intention to do - or Dr. Arundale, if we are to recognize the honorary degree conferred upon him by the short-lived National University wrote me that his intentions were to pursue a thoroughly liberal policy. I could not congratulate him on his election, considering the way in which it had been conducted, but I wrote wishing him success in the liberal intentions expressed in his letter to me. But I saw no landing-place for the weary unwelcome foot of the white dove of truth in the new interpretation of the Society's principle of tolerance: "Thou shalt not find fault with a brother's views or activities." What a convenience that sort of tolerance would be to lawbreakers in general, if only it could be adopted in the outside world! I learned to detest theosophical politics, with their hiding of everything that does not redound to the credit of those in power, and their perpetual circles of mutual admiration, but I was left with a high regard for the theosophists scattered over the world as a lovable - albeit most innocent and childlike body of people. It is not here, nor is it there, that pure life or truth shall be found. There are no secret passages to truth. No hocus-pocus of incantations, of word or of the subtler word that is thought, can light or fan the central fire. No establishment can establish it; no communications communicate. ===end=== ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 01:10:15 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 873 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970201071015.007290bc@mail.eden.com> At 12:59 AM 2/1/97 -0500, you wrote: > >>From what I know, the only thing common between Bing and some of the Elected >Leaders of Co-Masonic Order is that their skin is *not* white. There is no >Bing's group. It is my impression that he was not even a member of Co-M. > >I never said that Bing was a member of Co-M. I'm also aware that he's an >unpaid lecturer on the TSA circuit. I was responsible for having someone from >overseas mail him a check for a $1000 during that period when he was down and >out. I was only able to give him a small contribution myself because my >income has never been very great. I refuse to get into skin pigmentation >politics with you, my friend, because frankly I don't know anything about it. >My statement was based on information given to me by a Co-M member for >whatever it's worth. > I do appreciate hearing from you that you did help Bing, a practical application of what we all learnt in T/t. There is a lot of mis-information going about regarding the co-m issue and I wanted to make sure that no one gets wrong information. That was the motivation for my post. I myself is not rich and I wish I was so that I could have helped Bing and others who need help. I will, as I had earlier mentioned, try to locate my exhaustive post on the co-m dispute and it may be very educational and informative to many here. Thanks for your response. > Subject: RE: Repost of re: simple language - to Einar > Message-ID: <199702011210.NAA25434@venus.euro.net> Einar wrote: >I will prepare some examples of my approach as soon as possible but I have to take some time for translating etc. >So, meanwhile, keep up the spirit! Ok, thanks for the effort. When you post your example(s) could you also cc: it to my E-mail address? Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:56:06 -0500 (EST) From: Lmhem111@aol.com Subject: Objectivity and Subjectivity Message-ID: <970201085606_982225684@emout03.mail.aol.com> Jerry, this is just a general response to your response before I move on. In using the examples I did, I didn't mean to imply that I support the dictum of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." This is the old Judaic law. However, you yourself have said that there has to be rule of law. In my opinion, this rule of law has to be based on objective reality. A case is presented to a judge and/or jury in a court of law. Objective facts are presented to him. Manipulation of facts or the presentation of "factoids" by clever lawyers don't alter the objective realities involved in the case. He or the jury determine a sentence. He or they may adjust that sentence and/or impose none at all based on extenuating circumstances. In other words, it's Justice tempered by Mercy. We see this happening all the time. Some say we have too much of it. Some say we have too little. In either case, this does not abrogate objective reality and neither do shifting cultural values. Our concept of right and wrong have to be held to the highest standards. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany had their courts of law but they were a sham. That may have suited the ruling powers in those countries but it certainly didn't help their citizenry. More often than not, victims of their so-called justice were sent off to the gulag or the concentration camp. If we didn't have universal standards regarding law and justice we wouldn't be able to discern the abuse of human rights. You say that every plane is both objective and subjective. I fully agree. The minute the universe comes into manifestation, there's a duality even if only a subtle one on the highest planes. However, I'm under the impression you are overemphasizing the objective at the expense of the subjective. Subjectivism leads to anarchy and chaos. We have seen examples of this in Somalia, Lebanon, Bosnia and, as you have mentioned, in Ireland. LunarPitri ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:51:39 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The LCC Message-ID: <970201115137_1727143641@emout05.mail.aol.com> Ann, Oh, yes, I was there, trying very hard no to laugh and embarrass anyone, including myself. I even got dragooned into signing his big certificate thing afterwards. One thing I remember with great glee is the sight of all the celebrants standing like dominos around the new Bishop wishing that one of them would just tip a little and they would all fall over. Anyway, knowing John and his love of spreading the word (even though good Theosophists are not supposed to prosletyze) the smart money is on him letting his good sea captain know that such things would meet with great favor in the big office on the second floor. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:58:37 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Morals Message-ID: <970201115836_2058908385@emout16.mail.aol.com> One of the nice things about living in the post-moral age we are in is that if one wants to violate somebody else's moral standards there is nothing they can do about it except get terribly frustrated. I break commandments all the time. Seriously, can you imagine anyone now refraining from an action they wish to perform and have the ability to do so merely because someone else thinks it isn't moral? Moral standards are not merely subjective, they are totally meaningless in such a world. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:01:11 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Shankaracharya Message-ID: <970201120111_-2045313308@emout20.mail.aol.com> Doss, I remember reading somewhere that Shankaracharya led the charge against Buddhism that eventually got it pretty much tossed out of India. Is that true or do I have him mixed up with somebody else. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 12:24:02 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970201182402.00701604@mail.eden.com> At 11:46 AM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-01-31 10:59:17 EST, you write: > ><< I had heard about the split, but was told it was about one group > >trying to take all the resources and form another group. Are > >you saying that another Co-Masonic group that is not linked with > >TS is a potential threat? >> > >I heard that the election debacle involving Bing Escudero versus the >powers-that-be spilled over into the Co-Masonic Order and that the Bing >faction "took over" Larkspur. There was also an alignment of Bing's group >with the LCC-Oklahoma Synod, a small schismatic splinter church (Bishop >Johnny Schwartz) which broke away from The LCC about 15 years ago. This >despite the fact that Bing is still a member of the TSA and for a while was >on the Board of Directors. > >LunarPitri > It appears that certain clarifications are in order. As you have indicated in a later reply that the information you provided above was from a member of Co-Masonic Order, certain details are necessary to understand about the Order in the USA. There are two <"CO"> Masonic Orders in the USA which admit women on an equal footing with men. 1. The International Co-Masonic Order with headquarters in Paris is called "Le Droit Humain". This used to be the only one in the USA until a few years ago. Now it is one of the two. Many of the elected present and former TS National and International Officials belong to this group. They are also the ones who are trying to push enrollment of TS members in this group by subtle and indirect means even though they will publicly say that TS/TSA has nothing to do with any other organizations. All the lodges are chartered by Paris and are controlled by Parisians. 2. The other Order AFHR, is headquartered in Colorado. This is totally independent in that it does not come under the control of any foreign entity. A few years ago, most of the members who used to belong to the Paris order decided to cut off all connection with Paris when Paris wanted to remote control over what the membership did in the USA (and the assets.) There are many TS members in this group too. But none of the elected present and past officials of TS/TSA are in this. AFHR is a Colorado Non Profit Corporation and has real estate assets in Colorado. 3. There is a litigation going on in Denver District Court in which the Paris representatives have sued to take over the assets owned by the Colorado Non Profit Corporation. I am re-posting a msg I posted a year ago describing the details of the above situation. 4. It appears that the information that LunarPitri was provided (by a Co-Mason) may be a very clever attempt to smear the reputation of Bing by trying to somehow associate AFHR situation and Tulsa-OK LCC situation to Bing by inventing a Bing "faction/group." You can draw your own conclusion to figure out who may have an axe to grind in it. 5. After reading this msg and the detailed Masonic litigation msg I am posting, if any one has *factual* information either to dispute any of the above or anything in the litigation msg, I welcome a posting. 6. Let full light shine and chips fall where they may. 7. I do not hold any office in TS, LCC, Masonic etc. MK Ramadoss ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 12:34:19 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Shankaracharya Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970201183419.0072e2a8@mail.eden.com> At 12:05 PM 2/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >Doss, >I remember reading somewhere that Shankaracharya led the charge against >Buddhism that eventually got it pretty much tossed out of India. > >Is that true or do I have him mixed up with somebody else. > >Chuck the Heretic Chuck: I don't recall it was that way. Buddha even today is revered by everybody in India and you will see his idols in most homes. As most of the basic principles Buddha spoke about are the same as that of Hinduism -- except for the Gods and priests -- Buddhism never took replaced Hinduism. I believe Shankaracharya reformed much of that was bad in Hinduism's practices and traditions. One other thing he did was to reorganize and strengthen the sanyasi groups making them independent democratic groups. Some believe that this reorganization was one of the reasons that Anglican church did not/could not convert many Hindus and British Govt kept its hands off of the religious issue. We may never know all the good things that he did. BTW, the tradition that S was an illegitimate child, is something I tell people that some of the brightest and most famous people are inthe same category. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:24:45 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Masters Message-ID: <19970201222021.AAA7256@JerrySchueler> Michael: >I should have preferred that truth to be that there were indeed Masters >guiding the course of mankind. Unfortunately history gives us no evidence >thereof. You obviously have a different sense of history than I have. The teaching about Masters was not new with HPB, but has existed from the beginning. It can be found, for example, in both Buddhism and Hinduism. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:03:16 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Reality (to Tom) Message-ID: <19970201222021.AAB7256@JerrySchueler> Tom: >It is a law of how matter relates to other matter. OK. But it can be different in other universes. >I infer that you disagree with HPB's idea, as expressed in "The Secret >Doctrine," that homogeneous spirit and matter are eternal. I see no >reason not to believe it. No, I agree with HPB. But what is "homogeneous matter?" She means that spirit and matter per se always exist in some form. But material atoms and molecules come and go, just like all material forms come and go. All aggragates or compounds are maya, as Buddhism teaches. In the above quote, HPB is referring to Purusha and Prakriti as defined in Hinduism. This is not spirit and matter as we normally think of them, but rather their original states. >You seem to be saying that if anything exists, someone had to create >it. Who created homogeneous spirit and matter? Yes, every creation must have a creator. The creator of "homo- geneous spirit and matter" is the collective energy of our divine monads, which are inherently creative and self-expressive. >The word "education" would be meaningless, if this is true. No, because the purpose of education is to produce a shared knowledge. But even shared knowledge changes over time, thus Newton gives way to Einstein, and so on. Today's truth is often tomorrow's error. >Does this mean that you would define the word "error" as "confounding >the planes, or is that only one type of error?" It is only one kind. We only recognize something as erroneous after a new perception changes our view of reality. On the physical plane, an "error" is usually defined as anything that is not shared, or that cannot be corroborated by others. But this definition doesn't work on the inner planes, because so little is shared there. >Sometimes what one believes to be true is false, and vice versa. I would say almost always. Truth and falsehood, like right and wrong, are two sides of a duality, and always exist together because each depends on the other for its existence. This is easy to see with dualities like up and down, and hot and cold. It is not so easy to see this with right and wrong, or truth and error. But truth makes no sense at all without errors to compare with, and evil only exists because of our sense of goodness. >This is what I meant by pure subjectivism. It says that there is no >reality besides perception. There is no such thing as pure subjectivism. Our perception is always of external objects. Even when we try to perceive ourself, we turn ourself into an external object. Every subjective I has an objective Not-I around it. This Not-I is as "real" as anything gets. >I would not label a dream "error," since >the dreamer probably never believes that the images are objectively >real. Maybe its just me, then. But when I dream, I tend to think the dream objects around me are real. They effect me, and so on. When I see a dream person and talk to them, I think of them as real. Unless its a lucid dream, I only realize the unreality of it all after I wake. Even then, a dream is only unreal in comparison to the physical world, which seems very real indeed, during our waking state. >But believing that the earth was flat did not become error when >the spherical shape of the earth was discovered. As long as the earth >was shaped spherically, it was always error. It did become error in our minds, which is where it counts. The world was flat when that idea was part of our shared knowledge, and it became spherical when that knowledge changed and what was once perceived as truth began to be perceived as error. If you want to call the fact that the Earth is spherical a truth, then OK. But this fact has little influence in our daily lives, and is simply one of the rules of the game of life on Globe D. It is a good example of how these rules can change over time. As science advances, the rules will keep on changing. >I have always thought of imagination as active and creative. It is, but there are limits to creativity within any one manvantara. >You seem to be saying that it is passive, more along the lines of >physical observations. Or would you say that, just as physical forms can be >created by rearranging physical matter, mental forms can be created by >rearranging mental matter? The latter, yes. But these arrangements are limited to what can be done with the human mind. There are arrangements beyond the scope of the human mind, and these we will not encounter during this Round. >Not at all. That Bill Clinton is President of the United States is >not a physical reality. Touche! >A perception is accurate if it is identical to reality. Who, except maybe God, is to say what reality is? I would say that "accuracy" does not pertain to perception except in the sense of a consenus with others. >To one who believes there is no reality besides perception, the term >would be meaningless. Reality is whatever seems to exist relative to the perceiver. Reality is not the perception itself, but what is perceived. Although, truth to tell, perception (a characteristic of Fohat) is real enough. >Although I find your theory about the agreements that >people have about what they consider to be "reality" being explainable >in terms of overlapping of perception to be conceivable, I find it far >more plausible to believe that this agreement can be accounted for by >postulating a reality that exists independently of perception. This is certainly the prevailing view, and the one Occam's Razor would suggest. It is also the one that I held most of my life. However, when you start to visit other planes and states of consciousness, you soon realize that this view is limited and doesn't hold up. It cannot account for the experiences that I have had on the inner planes. So, in an attempt to explain these experiences, I have had to adopt the old teaching of a person being a circle with a nowhere center and an everywhere circumference. The I-Not-I Monad Model of reality, that I developed in Enochian Physics, allows me to account for my experiences in a way that the prevailing One-Universe Model does not. So long as the One-Universe Model works, then my advise is to stick with it. All I am asking is that you listen to my model, and if your own every gives out on you, you can recall my model and possibly help yourself out. I am actually not sure that any one model is closer to "truth" than another, but the model of reality that we use must always agree with our experiences, else we run the risk of maddness or death (and I am not overstating the danger here). This is also true when we experience the inner planes. Our mind must have a structure or model of some kind in which to explain our experiences. It doesn't matter much whether we use the Tree of Life, HPB's Planetary Chain (what I call the GV) Model, or the Enochian Magic Model that I developed in my books. Use whatever works best. > I actually argue the possibility of the other side with >Objectivists, whose philosophy is based on the premise of an >independently existing reality... The Independently Existing Reality Model is the one used by the materialists. It is not terribly theosophcial and I gave it up a long time ago. >The dangers of both Objectivism and subjectivism are similar... Yes, because each needs the other. >Reality is the standard, not consensus. I would appreciate it if you would expound more on what you mean by "standard." Reality as changeless objective fact can be known only by God himself. God seems to have stranded us mortals in a mighty river where everything changes. >In other planetary chains, then, perhaps murder is rewarded with >social approval? Murder is often rewarded by society right here on Globe D. Remember the gladiators of Rome who killed each other to the approving roar of the crowd? Remember war? Our own society approves murder in self-defense. What about abortion? Reality is neither black nor white, but various shades of gray. >But I would not call randomness "illogical." It is also subject to law. It is only subject to law in a collective sense. Statistics rules the collective. But when a person, who eats right and exercises properly, and so on, gets cancer anyway, it often seems very illogical to that victim. Thats why I say that collective karma has logical rules but personal karma is often illogical and acausal. This is also why eliminating one's personal karma (the goal of the Pratyeka-Buddha) is relatively easy while eliminating the collective karma of humanity (the goal of the bodhisattva) is much more difficult. >Why would the mystic go to >the trouble of discovering that his spiritual Self is not separate >from the self of which most people are ordinarily conscious if it is >not an improvement? Buddhism teaches that the ordinary mind is Buddha. Its true, but it is a paradox. The "trouble" that you are referring to, was once called the "ultimate joke" by the Zen master, D.T. Suzuki. >You're being sorry implies that it would be an improvement for me to >be aware of it, yet you are also saying that there never can be any >improvement in one's perception, since you define perception as >reality. I don't see how those two contentions can be reconciled. >Why seek truth if I already have it in whatever I perceive? Would you rather have a nice pleasant dream or a terrible nightmare? What I have been saying, is that you can change your reality (yourself and the world around you). In a large sense, this is exactly what magic is all about. I am advocating that we seek a higher truth (little t) in the sense of a more pleasant one. Buddha's promise to us was a Path to escape suffering. Magic is also a valid Path to eliminate the sufferring in our lives. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:22:27 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Pope of the LCC Message-ID: <199702012322.SAA25013@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > >(Ann's head falls her desk) I vividly remember being at a clergy meeting > >way back around 1980-81 when J. Schwartz broke off from the church. The > >clergy were so upset they didn't talk about anything else for the rest of the > >meeting. > > > >This is truly high soap opera in a three ring circus. > > > >-AEB > > Ann: > > Since I have not kept up with LCC, what was it that broke the camel's back? > It's been so long that my memory is fuzzy, but I think it had something to do with J. Schwartz aspiring to the priesthood faster than his superior would allow. There was some difficulty between them and Johnny split. Doss: >Ann: Do you know if LCC allows women to hold the offices all the way up to >the *Pope*? This was covered in another post. There is no title of Pope, but Presiding Bishop. No women are ordained to holy orders, but are permitted to be servers or deaconesses at the altar. As for the administration of the church by the vestry, the offices of the President, Vice President and Treasurer have all been held by men and/or clergy for as long as I have been in the church. The post of Secretary, who writes the minutes of the meetings, has always been held by a woman. Regular vestry members can be either sex. Why, Doss? Do you want to file a discrimination suit? : -))) Personally, I have no desire to be ordained in the LCC. It's whole focus and service is so patriarchial that I would have nothing to identify with. If they ever do change their system, it would be a massive shake-up that might tear apart the church. As far as I'm concerned, it's in the hands of the Bishops when they gather for a synod. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:36:34 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: The Big Three Message-ID: <199702012342.SAA04504@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > > 7. I do not hold any office in TS, LCC, Masonic etc. > The question I have is why are these three particular groups to be joined? Is there something special about each one that contributes to the growth of the joiner? Does the TS contribute to the mental body, the LCC to the emotonal and the Co-Masonic to the physical? Or was it just that these were the organizations formed at the early part of the century in the USA? I'm reading now that there was the Order of the Star in the East and everyone in it was wearing star badges till Krishnamurti disbanded it. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:41:15 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: The LCC Message-ID: <199702012342.SAA04526@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > Ann, > Oh, yes, I was there, trying very hard no to laugh and embarrass anyone, > including myself. I even got dragooned into signing his big certificate > thing afterwards. Is that why you came? For a big hoot or the big spread afterwards? > One thing I remember with great glee is the sight of all the celebrants > standing like dominos around the new Bishop wishing that one of them would > just tip a little and they would all fall over. Why didn't you run up and give them a shove? Glad you never saw me up there in my floatly white outfit. -AEB > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 18:29:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Big Three Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970202002900.00743fbc@mail.eden.com> At 06:48 PM 2/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> 7. I do not hold any office in TS, LCC, Masonic etc. >> >The question I have is why are these three particular groups to be >joined? Is there something special about each one that contributes to >the growth of the joiner? Does the TS contribute to the mental body, >the LCC to the emotonal and the Co-Masonic to the physical? Or >was it just that these were the organizations formed at the early >part of the century in the USA? > >I'm reading now that there was the Order of the Star in the East >and everyone in it was wearing star badges till Krishnamurti disbanded >it. > >-AEB At some point in the early part of the century Besant got interested in Co-M and then under her enthusiasm and drive lodges were started whereever TS Lodges were there. Again this was, I think, in preparation for the coming of the World Teacher. As for LCC, I need to do some research. I think again in preparation with the coming of the World Teacher, someone AB (???), CWL (???), must have thought that the World Teacher would repeat the model that He adopted 2000 years ago when He came in Palestine. Even after JK disbanded OSE, TS is clining on to these. From a political standpoint, these do help the TS leaders at the time of elections of officers at various levels because it given them (a) another channel of contact and (b) with everyone in each trying to move upwards with higher titles etc., there is an inbuilt inducement to the members to listen to the the leaders who have the power to deny advancement to anyone whom they don't want to advance. Wood describes about OSE and the star everyone was wearing. I think the only person who may not have been wearing was JK. I wish I grew up at the time all these things took place so that I could have seen all these first hand. But again I may have been swept by the mass hysteria that went on then. .......doss ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 18:36:28 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Pope of the LCC Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970202003628.0074aedc@mail.eden.com> At 06:35 PM 2/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss > >> >(Ann's head falls her desk) I vividly remember being at a clergy meeting >> >way back around 1980-81 when J. Schwartz broke off from the church. The >> >clergy were so upset they didn't talk about anything else for the rest of the >> >meeting. >> > >> >This is truly high soap opera in a three ring circus. >> > >> >-AEB >> >> Ann: >> >> Since I have not kept up with LCC, what was it that broke the camel's back? >> >It's been so long that my memory is fuzzy, but I think it had something to do >with J. Schwartz aspiring to the priesthood faster than his superior would >allow. There was some difficulty between them and Johnny split. > Very interesting and glad to see his boldness and the action taken. >Doss: >>Ann: Do you know if LCC allows women to hold the offices all the way up to >>the *Pope*? > >This was covered in another post. There is no title of Pope, but Presiding >Bishop. No women are ordained to holy orders, but are permitted to be >servers or deaconesses at the altar. With my understanding of one ascpect of the first object of TS -- which is no discrimination on the basis of sex, it would be impossible to reconcile myself with any organization which excludes women from holding the highest office. Who can say a woman is not fit to hold any office anywhere? It is sheer hypocracy for a T/theosophist to even participate in any organization which discriminates in any manner. > >As for the administration of the church by the vestry, the offices of the >President, Vice President and Treasurer have all been held by men and/or >clergy for as long as I have been in the church. The post of Secretary, who >writes the minutes of the meetings, has always been held by a woman. >Regular vestry members can be either sex. > >Why, Doss? Do you want to file a discrimination suit? : -))) > Not necessary. See above comments. >Personally, I have no desire to be ordained in the LCC. >It's whole focus and service is so patriarchial that I would have nothing >to identify with. If they ever do change their system, it would be a >massive shake-up that might tear apart the church. As far as I'm >concerned, it's in the hands of the Bishops when they gather for a >synod. > >-AEB I totally agree with you. One of these days, someone may start Co-LCC. Why not? ..doss ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:51:28 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Shankaracharya Message-ID: <970201195127_-1778093120@emout18.mail.aol.com> Doss, Thanks for the info. BTW, since a goodly portion of children in the US today are born out of wedlock, it's a good that that fact doesn't diminish their capabilities. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:08:27 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The Big Three Message-ID: <970201200827_242344533@emout09.mail.aol.com> Ann, You really have to look at the old Aday Theosophists, especially the ones from the early 1920's to learn how them folks thought back then. In reality it was much simpler. Leadbeater wanted to be a Bishop so he and his cronie Wedgewood (who ordained him in 1916) took over the LCC from it's founders and infected it with Theosophy--along with giving them excuses to cross-dress and fondle the choir-boys. (That's why they left the word Catholic in, no doubt.) Annie, being a Victorian, Middle Class gentlewoman in spite of some her wild youthful behavior and numerous love affairs, grabbed onto anything that would give her title of some sort and CoMasonry suited her just fine in that regard. Now, they couldn't come out a say all that because they had to spiritualize EVERYTHING, and after much thrashing around and trying to keep George Arundale out of bed with Oskar Kollerstrom because it was making Wedgewood jealous, to say nothing of shocking poor old Bishop Leadbeater because Oskar was an adult, they sort of came up with system you described. It is, of course, utter nonsense. All three organizations stand on their own merits with out the sort of gobbldygook that was written back then. But then just about everything that came out of that period was silliness pure and simple. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:15:57 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The LCC Message-ID: <970201201556_1579646429@emout02.mail.aol.com> Ann, >Is that why you came? For a big hoot or the big spread afterwards? Nothing quite so practical. The new Bishop was, and is, a friend (which is why I'm leaving his name out of this like you are) so laughing during the rite was out of the question. And so we all went to wish him well no matter how absurd it appeared to one with my liberal protestant upbringing. Of course, you know the first thing they teach us in writer's school is never to turn down a free meal. >Why didn't you run up and give them a shove? Glad you never saw me up there in my floatly white outfit. I was rather hoping they would fall over on their own. And what were you doing up there? Were you the one who poured too much oil on his head? Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 20:19:59 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Pope of the LCC Message-ID: <970201201958_1512542818@emout08.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-01 19:40:54 EST, you write: > > I totally agree with you. One of these days, someone may start Co-LCC. Why >not? > >..doss > > Ann will undoubtedly correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I recall hearing that the break-away LCC group does ordain women. Chuck ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 03:58:18 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Objective Reality Message-ID: <33060180.20912858@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Jerry S. wrote: >Tom: >>It is a law of how matter relates to other matter. > OK. But it can be different in other universes. >From a non-omniscient being's point of view, anything is possible. I don't know how gravity would be different anywhere else. Clarifying what is meant by the word "universe" also might be helpful, since, if it means to not exclude anything, there can only be one of them. I find HPB's use of the term "numberless universes" in "The Secret Doctrine" to be interesting. I guess this means that she was calling all that was known to science as our universe, but that there is no limit to what is beyond what we know about. >>I infer that you disagree with HPB's idea, as expressed in "The Secret >>Doctrine," that homogeneous spirit and matter are eternal. I see no >>reason not to believe it. > No, I agree with HPB. But what is "homogeneous matter?" >She means that spirit and matter per se always exist in some form. >But material atoms and molecules come and go, just like all >material forms come and go. All aggragates or compounds are >maya, as Buddhism teaches. In the above quote, HPB is referring >to Purusha and Prakriti as defined in Hinduism. This is not spirit >and matter as we normally think of them, but rather their original states. This all makes sense to me, assuming I have understood you correctly. By their "original states," do you mean their homogeneous states, and by "spirit and matter as we normally think of them," are you referring to the forms which they comprise? >every creation must have a creator. The creator of "homo- >geneous spirit and matter" is the collective energy of our divine monads, >which are inherently creative and self-expressive. If homogeneous spirit and matter are eternal, they could not have had a creator, assuming the "if it had a beginning, it must also have an end" rule is universally applicable. >the purpose of education is to produce a shared >knowledge. But even shared knowledge changes over time, thus Newton >gives way to Einstein, and so on. Today's truth is often tomorrow's >error. That the perception of truth changes does not mean that truth changes with it. You are implying that there is no reality besides perception. Under the assumption that there is, the purpose of education is to discover that reality, not to create a consensus. If there is no objective truth to discover, what purpose is there in producing shared knowledge? >>Does this mean that you would define the word "error" as "confounding >>the planes, or is that only one type of error?" > It is only one kind. We only recognize something as >erroneous after a new perception changes our view of reality. That is when we recognize the error. But errors that we do not recognize are also made. >On the physical plane, an "error" is usually defined as anything >that is not shared, or that cannot be corroborated by others. But >this definition doesn't work on the inner planes, because so little >is shared there. I define "error" as being any lack of perfect accuracy. No one needs to be aware of it for it to exist. >>This is what I meant by pure subjectivism. It says that there is no >>reality besides perception. > There is no such thing as pure subjectivism. There is no such thing as a perception which does not have an object, but there is such a thing as a philosophy of pure subjectivism. As long as there is objective reality, it is a false philosophy, incompatible, as far as I can tell, with the idea that in all perception, there must be both a subject and an object. >Our perception >is always of external objects. Even when we try to perceive ourself, >we turn ourself into an external object. Every subjective I has an >objective Not-I around it. This Not-I is as "real" as anything gets. I agree. In self-consciousness, there is still a subject and an object. >when I dream, I tend to think >the dream objects around me are real. They effect me, and so on. >When I see a dream person and talk to them, I think of them as real. >Unless its a lucid dream, I only realize the unreality of it all after >I wake. Even then, a dream is only unreal in comparison to the >physical world, which seems very real indeed, during our waking >state. This seems to mean that you have self-consciousness while you dream. I don't. >>But believing that the earth was flat did not become error when >>the spherical shape of the earth was discovered. As long as the earth >>was shaped spherically, it was always error. > It did become error in our minds, which is where it counts. I agree that reality independent of perception is irrelevant, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. >The world was flat when that idea was part of our shared knowledge, >and it became spherical when that knowledge changed and what was >once perceived as truth began to be perceived as error. I don't believe the shape of the earth depends to any significant degree on anyone's perception of its shape. >If you want >to call the fact that the Earth is spherical a truth, then OK. But this >fact has little influence in our daily lives, and is simply one of the >rules of the game of life on Globe D. It is a good example of how these >rules can change over time. As science advances, the rules will >keep on changing. If no one sailed past the horizon because they were afraid they would fall off the edge of the earth, their not knowing that the earth was spherical might have great influence in our daily lives. We would forego all the advantages of knowing the objective truth. >>That Bill Clinton is President of the United States is >>not a physical reality. > Touche! But it is an objective reality. >>A perception is accurate if it is identical to reality. > Who, except maybe God, is to say what reality is? Accurately knowing the accuracy of perception is a different question from the accuracy of perception. >I would say that "accuracy" does not pertain to perception >except in the sense of a consenus with others. That is based on the premise of their not being any reality besides perception. That is what I mean by pure subjectivism. It contradicts the idea that there must be a subject and an object for perception to take place. Only if there is no object to perceive would accuracy only mean consensus. > Reality is whatever seems to exist relative to the perceiver. >Reality is not the perception itself, but what is perceived. Although, >truth to tell, perception (a characteristic of Fohat) is real enough. I do not see how your first two sentences do not contradict each other. The first says that perception is the only reality. The second says there is a reality independently of perception, but I don't believe you mean to say that. We are using the word "reality" for two very different concepts. I define it as being what exists, regardless of whether or not it is perceived. You seem to be saying there is no such thing as what I call reality, but I don't see how that is compatible with saying that perception requires there to be an object to perceive. Are you saying that objects only exist when they are perceived? If I were at the Grand Canyon, looking at it, and you were not, would you say that it exists for me but not for you? If this is true, why go to Arizona to see it? Why not go to Michigan? > The Independently Existing Reality Model is the >one used by the materialists. It is not terribly theosophcial >and I gave it up a long time ago. I don't see why it has to be materialistic. My greatest attraction to Theosophy is the Society's founder's and early leaders' claim to know universal, objective, metaphysical, eternal truths. >>Reality is the standard, not consensus. > I would appreciate it if you would expound more on what >you mean by "standard." The standard does not have to be known in order to exist. The value of all perceptions is in how true they are. How true they are is how accurately they conform to objective reality. If your perception is that the Grand Canyon is in Arizona and mine is that it is in Michigan, and if it is really in Arizona, your perception is more true than mine is. >Reality as changeless objective fact >can be known only by God himself. It can only be known perfectly accurately by an omniscient being. It can be partially known by anyone. The value of one's existence depends to a great extent on the accuracy of perception. > Would you rather have a nice pleasant dream or a terrible >nightmare? I would rather have truth and reality. >What I have been saying, is that you can change your >reality (yourself and the world around you). In a large sense, this >is exactly what magic is all about. I am advocating that we seek a >higher truth (little t) in the sense of a more pleasant one. Buddha's >promise to us was a Path to escape suffering. Magic is also a >valid Path to eliminate the sufferring in our lives. What is the difference between magic and psychosis? I have always considered it a step down to "lose touch with reality" and go insane. That is why the motto "there is no religion higher than truth" means so much to me. Insanity is the karma of preferring fantasy to reality. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 05:07:27 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Clairvoyance Message-ID: <330f1f9d.28621801@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Jerry S. wrote: >Tom: >>Although I find your theory about the agreements that >>people have about what they consider to be "reality" being explainable >>in terms of overlapping of perception to be conceivable, I find it far >>more plausible to believe that this agreement can be accounted for by >>postulating a reality that exists independently of perception. > This is certainly the prevailing view, and the one Occam's Razor >would suggest. It is also the one that I held most of my life. However, >when you start to visit other planes and states of consciousness, you >soon realize that this view is limited and doesn't hold up. It cannot >account for the experiences that I have had on the inner planes. So, >in an attempt to explain these experiences, I have had to adopt the >old teaching of a person being a circle with a nowhere center and an >everywhere circumference. The I-Not-I Monad Model of reality, that I >developed in Enochian Physics, allows me to account for my >experiences in a way that the prevailing One-Universe Model does not. >From what I can gather about clairvoyance, it follows the same rules as physical observation. There is an objective reality which is perceived. Seeing anger in someone's aura is different from imagining seeing anger in someone's aura in that one is objectively true and the other is objectively false. Or are you saying that you believe that imagination and reality are identical in non-physical perception? ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:03:56 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Slow distribution Message-ID: Today the listserver is slow. Short msgs are getting distributed. Large ones have not been. I posted a long msg which I have not seen after about 12 hours delay. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 01:23:11 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Shankaracharya & "svâbhâvat" Message-ID: <32F45CEC.632E@withoutwalls.com> -------------------------- FIRST THIS ... -------------------------- >From Theosophy World #10: TECHNICAL TERMS IN STANZA II by David Reigle >There are seven technical terms in stanza II of the "Book of Dzyan" >"svâbhâvat," a fundamental concept in THE SECRET DOCTRINE which poses >fundamental problems. >> The esoteric doctrine teaches, like Buddhism and Brahminism, and >> even the Kabala, that the one infinite and unknown Essence exists >> from all eternity, and in regular and harmonious successions is >> either passive or active. In the poetical phraseology of Manu >> these conditions are called the "Days" and the "Nights" of >> Brahmâ. The latter is either "awake" or "asleep." The >> Svabhâvikas, or philosophers of the oldest school of Buddhism >> (which still exists in Nepaul), speculate only upon the active >> condition of this "Essence," which they call Svâbhâvat, **NOTE** >> and deem it foolish to theorize upon the abstract and "unknowable" >> power in its passive condition. >Earlier, the Mahatma K.H. in the first of a series of letters of >instruction to A. O. Hume wrote (Chron. ed. p. 165): >> To comprehend my answers you will have first of all to view the >> eternal ESSENCE, the Swabhâvat not a compound element you call >> spirit-matter, but as the one element for which the English has no >> name. It is both passive and active, pure SPIRIT ESSENCE in its >> absoluteness and repose, pure matter in its finite and conditioned >> state -- even as an imponderable gas or that great unknown which >> science has pleased to call FORCE. >All this fits together, then, in supporting the idea that the >Sânkhya prakriti matches the svabhâva doctrine taught in THE >SECRET DOCTRINE. But any gain from this match in supporting the >teachings of THE SECRET DOCTRINE is soon lost. The Sânkhya >school has been practically non-existent in India for centuries. >Why is this? Because the Advaita Vedânta school, called in THE >SECRET DOCTRINE the nearest exponent of the Esoteric philosophy >(vol. I, p. 55), and its foremost teacher, Shankarâcârya, >called in THE SECRET DOCTRINE "the greatest Initiate living in >the historical ages" (vol. I, p. 271), refuted its >substance-principle thoroughly and repeatedly (see, for example, >Shankarâcârya's commentary on brahma-sûtra 1.1.5 ff., his >summation at 1.4.28, then 2.1.1 ff., etc.). Thus the Sânkhya >doctrines were studied in India only to be refuted by the >dominant Vedânta school, much as the Sarvâstivâda doctrines were >studied in Tibet only to be refuted by the dominant Madhyamaka >school. -------------------------- THEN THIS ... -------------------------- >From Theos-l Digest #873 SHRI SHANKARACHARYA BY H. V. >A beautiful story is told of Him, when He went to Kashi (or Benares), >early in life. On his way to a bath in the holy river Ganga, His way was >obstructed by a chandala-the lowest of outcastes-whose touch is pollution to >the Brahmana. His disciples ran forward, shouting to the chandala to >withdraw, but the latter held his ground, and put the pertinent question, >how the Master could reconcile such proud exclusiveness with **NOTE** >His doctrine of the One Life in all. >At once Shri Shankaracharya did homage to the chandala, exclaiming that here >indeed was His Guru; who had taught Him to look on phenomena rightly. -------------------------- NOTED WITHOUT COMMENT -------------------------- Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 09:32:19 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: New Advice on Women Message-ID: <32F4A573.477A@sprynet.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > Follow Nietzsche's advice and to hell with everything else. According to Nietzche's advice, everything he says is a lie. Bart Lidofsky ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 10:25:38 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: <32F4B1F2.3819@sprynet.com> M K Ramadoss wrote: > Several years ago, when Bing and his wife thrown out on the street overnight > by TSA powers, it was Johnny Schwartz who provided them shelter in Tulsa > which prevented them from ending up in Salvation Army Homeless Shelter. It > was a great act of practical compassion and demonstration of Brotherhood on > the part of Johnny Schwartz (for which he should be congratulated.) Bing was the highest paid person at Wheaton. He was given a very generous severence pay (I believe 4 months salary), and was offered numerous jobs at Wheaton to replace his job as paid national lecturer (which was eliminated). He requested positions for which he had absolutely no qualifications (such as head of TPH). I hardly call that "being thrown out on the street"). Worst case, he could have taken a job he considered to be "beneath him" and maintain residence at Wheaton while looking for another job. Bart Lidofsky ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 10:40:08 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Objectivity and Subjectivity Message-ID: <32F4B558.585A@sprynet.com> Lmhem111@aol.com wrote: > > Jerry, this is just a general response to your response before I move on. In > using the examples I did, I didn't mean to imply that I support the dictum of > "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." This is the old Judaic law. Hmmmm...the law states that if someone loses an eye, then the person who caused the injury should replace the eye as best as they can. The same as a tooth, etc. What is wrong with that? Bart Lidofsky ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:45:20 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Several years ago, when Bing and his wife thrown out on the street overnight > > by TSA powers, it was Johnny Schwartz who provided them shelter in Tulsa > > which prevented them from ending up in Salvation Army Homeless Shelter. It > > was a great act of practical compassion and demonstration of Brotherhood on > > the part of Johnny Schwartz (for which he should be congratulated.) > > Bing was the highest paid person at Wheaton. He was given a very > generous severence pay (I believe 4 months salary), and was offered > numerous jobs at Wheaton to replace his job as paid national lecturer > (which was eliminated). He requested positions for which he had > absolutely no qualifications (such as head of TPH). I hardly call that > "being thrown out on the street"). Worst case, he could have taken a job > he considered to be "beneath him" and maintain residence at Wheaton > while looking for another job. > > Bart Lidofsky > Glad to see your msg. This is *the* first time I see this information. While I trust the info is correct, as the Russian Proverb says, "Trust but verify". Hence I would like to see documented evidence. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 11:06:18 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: <32F4BB7A.5E28@sprynet.com> m.k. ramadoss wrote: > > On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Bing was the highest paid person at Wheaton. He was given a very > > generous severence pay (I believe 4 months salary), and was offered > > numerous jobs at Wheaton to replace his job as paid national lecturer > > (which was eliminated). He requested positions for which he had > > absolutely no qualifications (such as head of TPH). I hardly call that > > "being thrown out on the street"). Worst case, he could have taken a job > > he considered to be "beneath him" and maintain residence at Wheaton > > while looking for another job. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > > Glad to see your msg. > > This is *the* first time I see this information. > > While I trust the info is correct, as the Russian Proverb says, "Trust > but verify". Hence I would like to see documented evidence. Ask someone who was on the Board of Directors at the time, like I did. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:51:49 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Pope of the LCC Message-ID: <199702021719.MAA13974@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Doss, > > > I totally agree with you. One of these days, someone may start Co-LCC. Why > >not? > > > Ann will undoubtedly correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I recall hearing > that the break-away LCC group does ordain women. > Which ONE of the breakaways? I believe there may be several. Someone once told me there were four different LCCs in Fairfield, Iowa and that the other three ordained women. In the Chicago area, some priest and his family broke off from the local LCC in the past few months and has started their own LCC in the western suburbs. Right near you Dr. Psionic! -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 08:06:41 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: The Big Three Message-ID: <199702021719.MAA13993@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > Ann, > You really have to look at the old Aday Theosophists, especially the ones > from the early 1920's to learn how them folks thought back then. Is this TS history according to Psionic? > > In reality it was much simpler. Leadbeater wanted to be a Bishop so he and > his cronie Wedgewood (who ordained him in 1916) took over the LCC from it's > founders and infected it with Theosophy--along with giving them excuses to > cross-dress and fondle the choir-boys. (That's why they left the word > Catholic in, no doubt.) Actually, Wedgewood got himself consecrated in the Old Catholic Church and then asked CWL to jump on the bandwagon. There was no LCC to take over- they created it. The service has been and is still Old Catholic, with a few theosophical additions here and there. That OCC service gets around - it's being used by the Church of Antioch and more than one gnostic church. Each group changes the wording in some parts to make it fit their philosophy. > Annie, being a Victorian, Middle Class gentlewoman in spite of some her wild > youthful behavior and numerous love affairs, grabbed onto anything that would > give her title of some sort and CoMasonry suited her just fine in that > regard. I think she took a look at CWL's marching band of alpha-male clergy and decided to get something going for the ladies. > > Now, they couldn't come out a say all that because they had to spiritualize > EVERYTHING, and after much thrashing around and trying to keep George > Arundale out of bed with Oskar Kollerstrom because it was making Wedgewood > jealous, to say nothing of shocking poor old Bishop Leadbeater because Oskar > was an adult, they sort of came up with system you described. This part would be great in the next issue of The Liberal Catholic, their LCC world mag. Of course, they'd ask you to back up your story. > > It is, of course, utter nonsense. All three organizations stand on their own > merits with out the sort of gobbldygook that was written back then. But then > just about everything that came out of that period was silliness pure and > simple. > I think they just basically did the best they could with what they had. -AEB > Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 08:16:09 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: The LCC Message-ID: <199702021719.MAA14011@cliff.cris.com> > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > Ann, > > >Is that why you came? For a big hoot or the big spread afterwards? > >snipo< > Of course, you know the first thing they teach us in writer's school is never > to turn down a free meal. Even if it's vegetarian? > > >Why didn't you run up and give them a shove? Glad you never saw me > up there in my floatly white outfit. > > I was rather hoping they would fall over on their own. And what were you > doing up there? Were you the one who poured too much oil on his head? Yeah, I dumped a whole gallon of canola on him and then polished his head with a chamois till it shone like new car chrome. > Seriously, I had a backstage pass and was taking pictures from the wings. I've temporarily retired from the LCC clergy to become a pew sitter. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:18:56 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Pope of the LCC Message-ID: <199702021719.MAA14026@cliff.cris.com> > From: M K Ramadoss > >Doss: > >>Ann: Do you know if LCC allows women to hold the offices all the way up to > >>the *Pope*? > > > >This was covered in another post. There is no title of Pope, but Presiding > >Bishop. No women are ordained to holy orders, but are permitted to be > >servers or deaconesses at the altar. > > With my understanding of one ascpect of the first object of TS -- which is > no discrimination on the basis of sex, it would be impossible to reconcile > myself with any organization which excludes women from holding the highest > office. Who can say a woman is not fit to hold any office anywhere? It is > sheer hypocracy for a T/theosophist to even participate in any organization > which discriminates in any manner. > The LCC was organized and set up basically by the clairvoyance of CWL, whose opinons and insights, are to this day, considered unquestionable by those in charge of the church. These are his words, as taken from The Science of the Sacraments, Pg. 391, written by him as a guide to the Liberal Catholic church in terms of vestments and ritual. "It is often asked whether a woman could validly be ordained. The forces now arranged for distribution though the priesthood would not work efficiently through a feminine body; but is is quite conceivable that the present arrangements may be altered by the Lord Himself. It would no doubt be easy for Him, if He so chose, either to revive some from of the old religions in which the feminine Aspect of the Deity was served by priestesses, or so to modify the physics of the Catholic scheme of forces that a feminine body could be satisfactorily employed in the work. Meantime, we have no choice but to administer His Church along the lines laid down for us." Since this was written, around 1920, other churches have decided to let women participate fully. While I know there are bishops and priests in the LCC sympthetic to the idea of women being ordained, I can only surmise that the majority of those in power do not want this or it would have happened. The present presiding bishop, in his magazine, heartily denounces any type of change in the church. He believes that the arrangements made by Wedgewood and Leadbeater are permanent. So this is more than an issue of the equality in the church, but a lack of desire to make any changes in the church. How does the LCC fit into the future Aquarian Age, with its emphasis on equality? I really don't know. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:22:47 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: New Advice on Women Message-ID: <970202132246_1626268026@emout03.mail.aol.com> And so is everything else, if you read another passage. But his advice works for me and keeps my girlfriend happy. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:25:13 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: <970202132512_-1778029570@emout18.mail.aol.com> Doss, Bing was also offered a position at Adyar as an international speaker which he turned down. I know because Gerda and I tried to convince him to take it, which of course made us traitors to the holy cause. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:28:39 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Pope of the LCC Message-ID: <970202132834_1961310724@emout20.mail.aol.com> Ann, I only report such rumors as I am paid to. :) :). But seriously, I tend to spend my Sundays recovering from Saturday night and reading the newspaper. I stopped going to church when I was eight and discovered that Flash Gordon was on Sunday morning, a situation which made my father very happy because he could sleep late. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:42:08 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The Big Three Message-ID: <970202134025_1693712662@emout18.mail.aol.com> Ann, You have to read the old journals and then read between the lines of some of the stories because they don't come out and say things directly. For example, in Mary Lutyens' memoir of Krishnamurti's youth (I think it's To Be Young), she refers to Leadbeater coming to great them in Sydney leaning on the arm of his then favorite very young man. Now, from what we know of Leadbeater's behavior, it doesn't take much to infer why he was the favorite. In fact, from the description, it is damned obvious. The problem with the inner circle of the TS at that time was that they were like the three men on the desert island who got very rich by trading their hats around. They only talked to each other and only listened to each other and fed off each other so that there was no force to remind them that what they were saying was nonsense. The airhead--er--arhat business is a prime example. So they had these three organizations, actually independant of each other, but they figured out a way to sort of glue them to serve their purposes, only they didn't consciously know that. They actually persuaded themselves that they had found the key to the future of humanity. Now we, from our perspective, can easily see that they had simply gone off the deep end and were ripe for a padded room with a view,but no one who was around them did until Krishnamurti came to his senses and told everyone to get a life. Read the transcripts of the 1925 Star Camp at Ommen, it's in the 1925 bound volume of the Adyar Theosophist at the Olcott Library, and you'll see what I mean. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:46:09 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The LCC Message-ID: <970202134331_915247002@emout12.mail.aol.com> Ann, >Yeah, I dumped a whole gallon of canola on him and then polished his head with a chamois till it shone like new car chrome. You should have kicked him in the rear. Then his kundalini would have been activated. Someday I must tell the story of his attempt to levitate me. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:31:25 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > > Bing was also offered a position at Adyar as an international speaker which > he turned down. I know because Gerda and I tried to convince him to take it, > which of course made us traitors to the holy cause. > > Chuck the Heretic Thanks for the information. ..doss ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:40:57 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Pope of the LCC Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > ---------- > > From: M K Ramadoss > > >Doss: > > >>Ann: Do you know if LCC allows women to hold the offices all the way up to > > >>the *Pope*? > > > > > >This was covered in another post. There is no title of Pope, but Presiding > > >Bishop. No women are ordained to holy orders, but are permitted to be > > >servers or deaconesses at the altar. > > > > With my understanding of one ascpect of the first object of TS -- which is > > no discrimination on the basis of sex, it would be impossible to reconcile > > myself with any organization which excludes women from holding the highest > > office. Who can say a woman is not fit to hold any office anywhere? It is > > sheer hypocracy for a T/theosophist to even participate in any organization > > which discriminates in any manner. > > > The LCC was organized and set up basically by the clairvoyance of CWL, > whose opinons and insights, are to this day, considered unquestionable by > those in charge of the church. > > These are his words, as taken from The Science of the Sacraments, Pg. 391, > written by him as a guide to the Liberal Catholic church in terms of > vestments and ritual. > > "It is often asked whether a woman could validly be ordained. The forces now > arranged for distribution though the priesthood would not work efficiently through > a feminine body; but is is quite conceivable that the present arrangements may be > altered by the Lord Himself. It would no doubt be easy for Him, if He so chose, > either to revive some from of the old religions in which the feminine Aspect of > the Deity was served by priestesses, or so to modify the physics of the > Catholic scheme of forces that a feminine body could be satisfactorily employed > in the work. Meantime, we have no choice but to administer His Church along > the lines laid down for us." > > Since this was written, around 1920, other churches have decided to let > women participate fully. While I know there > are bishops and priests in the LCC sympthetic to the idea of women > being ordained, I can only surmise that the majority of those in power do > not want this or it would have happened. The present presiding bishop, in his > magazine, heartily denounces any type of change in the church. He believes > that the arrangements made by Wedgewood and Leadbeater are permanent. > So this is more than an issue of the equality in the church, but a lack of > desire to make any changes in the church. > > How does the LCC fit into the future Aquarian Age, with its emphasis on equality? > I really don't know. > > -AEB > I saw some material in the compilation of the history of TS for the first 50 years. Will try to post some soon. Since it was written from the party line, it is not the full story. However reasonable the reasoning of CWL is, I am not convinced that women should be excluded from any position. Any prospective member of TS seeing the (unrelated) relationship between TS and LCC would wonder about the paradoxical stand. Especially women prospects are going to the turned off. Not a good prospect especially considering present trend of membership of TS. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 15:37:17 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Big Three Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970202213717.006ebe28@mail.eden.com> At 06:48 PM 2/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> 7. I do not hold any office in TS, LCC, Masonic etc. >> >The question I have is why are these three particular groups to be >joined? Is there something special about each one that contributes to >the growth of the joiner? Does the TS contribute to the mental body, >the LCC to the emotonal and the Co-Masonic to the physical? Or >was it just that these were the organizations formed at the early >part of the century in the USA? > >I'm reading now that there was the Order of the Star in the East >and everyone in it was wearing star badges till Krishnamurti disbanded >it. > >-AEB > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 15:37:19 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Big Three Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970202213719.006eed8c@mail.eden.com> At 06:48 PM 2/1/97 -0500, AEB wrote >The question I have is why are these three particular groups to be >joined? Is there something special about each one that contributes to >the growth of the joiner? In THE DISCIPLE, another ES magazine for May 1917, Mrs. Besant announced new Orders from the Master. The Lord Maitreya commanded the development of three activities connected with the Coming; the Theosophical Educational Trust, Co-Masonry and the Old Catholic Church. Here you go and make up your own mind. MKR When you do not have knowledge, you need belief. ..Anon. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 15:42:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Masonic Litigation - Part 3 of 3 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970202214230.0072bd94@mail.eden.com> =========part 3 of 3 ======================================= The present litigation in Denver District Court is about who owns the property and other money - Le Droit Humain or the Colorado Non Profit Corporation which had owned it for a very long time. It appears there are other important by much less obvious issues underlying the above developments. The Representative of Paris till the above developments took place have always been an individual of European origin. Before the above developments, the membership recommended a person of non European Origin to be appointed as the Representative of Paris, and for the first time in US history of co-m, Paris ignored the general wish of the membership and appointed an individual of European Origin. This fact, whether just coincidental or deliberate appears not to look good. When the litigation was started in the court, it was an interesting scene. On the side of plaintiffs, I was told, all the individuals sitting were of European origin and on the defense side were sitting individuals predominantly of Hispanic and/or South American in origin. It appears that to some observers it made a very powerful impression, which was not good. Due to many members of TS also belonging to Co-Masonry in their personal capacity, a very leading elected official of the TS (in his personal capacity) tried to subtly influence the American Co-Masonic Membership to support the demands of Paris. I do not know if this did any good at all to TS in America. If any, it might have had some negative effect on the TS members. There is also the issue of many of the leading elected officials of TS around the world holding high offices in the Co-M in Paris (in their personal capacity) which sought the above change in the setup in the USA. On another situation that arose a couple of years ago, when a person of non European origin ran for the President of TS, there was a mess in his getting "brown balled" and all the members in the TS in USA are fully aware of what happened. In the past, International Organizations including TS had the unique advantage of controlling the flow of information from one country to another country relating to any developments in any country. The membership in neighboring countries were totally in the dark relative to any important or serious events that took place in any country. Now all that is changing with Internet. Information on all developments travel at speed of light and everyone on Internet is able to know what is going on instantaneously. Also interested participants can elicit more specific details they are interested in. Such full exposure is very good. When you deal with Truth and actions based on Truth and openly stated principles and objectives, any exposure will only strengthen the actions and increase support and not weaken them. However, when there are actions which are blatantly unjustifiable and undemocratic, such full exposure can only make the leaders very very uneasy and uncomfortable. Even this message you would not have seen but for Internet. Long live Internet. ...Doss --------------------------- end of part 3 of 3 ----------------------- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 15:43:27 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Masonic Litigation Part 2 of 3 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970202214327.0071ed14@mail.eden.com> ============================part 2 of 3 === In the USA, the situation is different. Democracy and independence have a very unique meaning to the Americans since the days of American Independence, and every institution in the USA has been very alert to any kind of direct or indirect Foreign Domination no matter in what kind of "spiritual" garb it is disguised. In many of these situations there are also large assets involved and hence such control means economic control and thru economic control other changes can be effected. So when the Paris demands of this *veto* based *autocratic* *remote* control was presented to the membership, most of the members were outraged and on a democratic ballot voted to form American Co-Masonry which is sovereign and does not depend upon any foreign ruler ship or control. It works the Scottish Rite from the 1st through the 33rd degree plus some degrees of the York Rite. The elected members of the Board of Directors personally visited Paris and tried to formally and personally explain the situation in the US so that the situation could be resolved in a mutually satisfactory manner. Paris leadership would not budge. So this situation ended with the formation of the American Co-Masonry. As a historical fact, it need to be mentioned here that when France was under Nazi Occupation and Co-Masonic Headquarters could not function, the lodges in US were working under a sovereign Supreme Council in the US. For those outside the US, it would be interesting to know that even in the masculine Masonry, each State of the United States has its own sovereign setup and is not subject to any national ruler ship or control. So with 52 states there are 52 Masonic Supreme Councils each of which is sovereign in its State. ====================end of part 2 of 3 ======================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:14:53 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Responses To Tom on Reality Message-ID: <19970202221752.AAA18813@JerrySchueler> Tom: >From a non-omniscient being's point of view, anything is possible. I >don't know how gravity would be different anywhere else. Clarifying >what is meant by the word "universe" also might be helpful, since, if >it means to not exclude anything, there can only be one of them. There are numberless universes, ours being but one. When our universe began at the Big Bang, there were only a few universal constants present during the initial conditions, that ultimately led to the universe around us as we know it. A very small change to any of the constants would have produced a different universe. This idea is not mine, and you can find the details in what is called the Anthropic Principle. Einstein showed that our universe is spherical and thus does not go on and on forever. The teaching of multiple universes is well-known in Buddhism. >By their "original states," do you mean their homogeneous states, and >by "spirit and matter as we normally think of them," are you referring >to the forms which they comprise? Yes. As manifestation emmanates downward through the planes, the orginal homogenous nature of spirit and matter become more and more compromised. In our everyday physical world, for example, we do not usually think of matter as homogenous. >If homogeneous spirit and matter are eternal, they could not have had >a creator, assuming the "if it had a beginning, it must also have an >end" rule is universally applicable. Quite right. Homogeneous spirit and matter (what we may think of as the ultimate duality) is eternal only for this manvantara. HPB was correct to use the word eternal in the sense of the duration of this manvantara. Thus, nothing is truly eternal but the divine monads, which end one manvantaric manifestation only to begin another, without beginning or end. Remember, the concept of beginning and end requires the concept of time, else they make no sense. The divine monads are beyond time, or timeless, and thus the concept of beginning and end do not apply to them. >That the perception of truth changes does not mean that truth changes >with it. You are implying that there is no reality besides >perception. In a sense, that is what I am saying, yes. Perception is real, while the perceiver and the perceived are maya. How we perceive ourselves and our world will go on changing throughout this manvantara, while our ability to perceive keeps right on going. Trying to find Truth inwardly or outwardly is a task like a dog chasing after its own tail. Think of it this way: Only the divine monad is Reality or Truth. But the divine monad itself is composed of an I (the perceiver), a Not-I (the perceived) , and a connecting force (Fohat--perception itself). So, in a sense, the perceiver, perceived, and perception are all real because they inhere in the divine monad. But in another sense they are all unreal because a monad, by definition, cannot be divided into components, and so the triad only has existence in manvantaric manifestation, which is a maya. This is a paradox, but I don't know of any other way to say it. >If there is no objective truth to discover, what purpose is there in >producing shared knowledge? But there is. Truth is both objective and subjective, because the divine monad is both. The sharing of knowledge is all part of self-expression and creativity, which is what manifestation is all about. We each have personal purposes for each lifetime, but the collective purpose for living in space-time is the fun of self- expression. Most theosophists say that the purpose is to develop self-consciousness. This is the purpose of the Arc of Ascent, yes. But it ignores the fact that we deliberately lose self-consciousness during the Arc of Descent. The personal knowledge that we develop over a lifetime, is lost during the devachan and we return as a child with no knowledge at all. If our purpose is to gain knowledge, why do we lose it all at birth? >This seems to mean that you have self-consciousness while you dream. >I don't. Yes you do. Everyone has a sense of identity in dreams. However, you may or may not be the same personality. Sometimes I am Jerry S., and sometimes I am someone else with a complete set of memories. Dreams always have a subjective dreamer and objective dream contents. Self-consciousness cannot be limited to our transient human personalities. >I agree that reality independent of perception is irrelevant, but that >does not mean it doesn't exist. Agreed. This is exactly what I have been trying to say. If you see pink elephants, and I don't, then I am wrong to jump to the conclusion that they don't exist and that you are crazy. They may very well exist, but on an inner plane. If someone says that Paris exists, I should not say it doesn't just because I haven't seen it myself. >I don't believe the shape of the earth depends to any significant >degree on anyone's perception of its shape. Not on yours or mine, no. But it does depend on the perception of those who created it and who are currently maintaining it. >But it is an objective reality. Yes. The word "objective" should not be limited to physical. >Accurately knowing the accuracy of perception is a different question >from the accuracy of perception. If you say so. But for us mortals, the "accurately knowing the accuracy of perception" is limited to a consenus of our individual experiences. I don't think it can every be more than that. >We are using the word "reality" for two very different concepts. I >define it as being what exists, regardless of whether or not it is >perceived. I stand with my theosophical definition that reality is the divine monad, and all else is maya. >I don't see why it has to be materialistic. My greatest attraction to >Theosophy is the Society's founder's and early leaders' claim to know >universal, objective, metaphysical, eternal truths. Wow! I wan't aware of any such claims. Theosophy, at least as I understand it, would not say that our physical universe is "independent." The idea of independence makes the Independently Existing Reality Model a materialistic model of our universe. >The standard does not have to be known in order to exist. The value >of all perceptions is in how true they are. How true they are is how >accurately they conform to objective reality. If your perception is >that the Grand Canyon is in Arizona and mine is that it is in >Michigan, and if it is really in Arizona, your perception is more true >than mine is. Well, it may not be known by you or me, but someone has to be aware of it. All perceptions have a certain truth to them, or else we couldn't see them. You are limiting perceptions to the physical plane, and I have no quarrel there at all--except that the Grand Canyon only exists in Arizona by the consensus of monads now incarnating on Earth. It was agreed, at some point, to put it there. The same with everything else. How else did it get there? God? Chance (alias chaos)? >It can only be known perfectly accurately by an omniscient being. It >can be partially known by anyone. I don't believe there is any such thing as an "omniscient being" except in a very limited sense. And we all have partial knowledge. >The value of one's existence >depends to a great extent on the accuracy of perception. I truly hope that this does not mean what it sounds like. If you are suggesting that animals are of less value than humans, then I have to disagree. If you are suggesting that Jews have less value than Russians, then again I disagree. If you are suggesting that illiterates have less value than university professors, then again I disagree. If you are suggesting that chelas have less value than adepts, then again I disagree, and so on. >>Would you rather have a nice pleasant dream or a terrible >>nightmare? > >I would rather have truth and reality. Look around you. You already have it. There is truth and reality in both dreams and nightmares, but I like the one over the other as a matter of personal preference. >What is the difference between magic and psychosis? Magic is doing any act soever deliberately and consciously (i.e., directed by the will) in order to "get" something. Psychosis is a serious mental illness. Psychotics act out of compulsion or obsession rather than from their own conscious will. > I have always considered it a step down to "lose touch with reality" >and go insane. I hate to say this, Tom, but we are all "insane" to some degree, and we are all dysfunctional to some degree. Your definition is really "losing touch with the consensus of society" rather than with reality. It is impossible to lose touch with reality, because we are reality. Society labels those whose perceptions do not conform to its consensus as insane. Its only a label. Sanity and insanity both exist in us all. They are two sides of a duality, and cannot be separated. >Insanity is the karma of preferring fantasy to reality Well, I suppose it could be, but your broad brush here would label everyone who goes to Disneyland as insane. Why spend time and money on the fantasy world of Disney, when we can sit home with reality? I prefer to think that reality itself is a fantasy, and that all life is magical. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:59:52 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: TS Elections - An Excerpt Message-ID: <199702022333.SAA12431@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > >E. Wood: > Thus the election which ought to have been a courtly record of policy and > opinion - a manifestation of brotherhood in a society established "to form a > nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity" - degenerated into > something worse than any political election I have ever known. Alas, that > every experiment in brotherhood should fail, on reaching a modicum of > material prosperity. > It seems that Arundale wanted to be the head of TS so badly, wanted and desired it so much, that he decided it was worth any action or tactic on his part, as long as he got to the top. This is what every soap opera is made of - people who want desire a person, a thing, a position so much that they will stoop to anything to get it. Essentially, Wood was saying that TS had turned into a soap opera. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 18:32:56 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Beneath Bing Message-ID: <32F52428.3A7D@gil.net> Bart, If you care to name the person who gave you that load of kaka relative Bing's expulsion, I'd peronally request confirmation in writing. I spoke to Bing the day after he was told to leave the facility and post haste at that. He did get one months salary. It is my true belief, he had no funds on the day he left Wheaton. Further, the offer he acknowledges was one of menial labor. No position that would use his talents was offered him. That from Bing's own mouth. If you know him you know he is honest, sincere and walks the walk, not just talks .... Bart, I'm still waiting for substantiation of your last statement concerning the availability of BOD minutes. Perhaps being an apologist for the Wheatonists is more difficult than you first thought. Best, and other good things. I hope to hear from you soon. Ken Malkin ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:23:39 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: <+yA5$FA7HS9yEwcE@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <32F4BB7A.5E28@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes >> While I trust the info is correct, as the Russian Proverb says, "Trust >> but verify". Hence I would like to see documented evidence. > > Ask someone who was on the Board of Directors at the time, like I did. > > Bart Lidofsky With respect, *asking* someone what happens may or may not provide documentary evidence, assuming such evidence exists. Doss is simply asking for documentary backup for your information, and does not suggest that it is untrue. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:16:21 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Pope of the LCC Message-ID: <5S$4HCAFBS9yEwfV@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <970201201958_1512542818@emout08.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Ann will undoubtedly correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I recall hearing >that the break-away LCC group does ordain women. I was on the agenda in the UK, but I don't know if they adopted it. I believe at least one schismatic LCC group (there are a number) may now ordain women. These are likely to be of a gnostic flavor. My own schismatic branch (ICC in England) decided to open the ranks of the clergy to women circa 1988, but no women were forthcoming, and the small chapel was closed down in 1990 or 1991 when I gave up the whole "catholic" bit. Maybe we could start a church of the hairless purple bunnies? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 18:06:23 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Masonic Litigation _ Part 1 _ of_ 3 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203000623.0068f6b4@mail.eden.com> Someone wrote: I had heard about the split, but was told it was about one group trying to take all the resources and form another group. Are you saying that another Co-Masonic group that is not linked with TS is a potential threat? A year ago I posted a detailed msg on the Masonic Litigation. I am reposting it so that those who have not seen it may like to know. If anyone has any factual information to correct what I am posting, please post a msg. It will interest everyone, =========================================================================== 30 Jan 1996 00:55:49 CoMasonic/TS Matters The following message is posted due to requests from abroad and posted here because of strong common membership between TS and (Co) M. Anyone not interested can hit the delete key now. ---------------------------------------- (Co) Masonic Organization in the US: Some participants, especially abroad, and some are members of either/both of TS and Co-Masonic organizations and some are not, have evinced some interest in the Co-M developments in the USA. In order to better understand the recent developments in the US and the legal fight that is going on, the following background information is provided, especially for those outside US. The Co-Masonic organization in the US, for a long time was set up as a non profit corporation in the State of Colorado. As a non profit corporation, it had democratically elected its President and other Board of Directors who are responsible to run the business affairs of the corporation. On the ritual side, there was always a representative of Paris. Traditionally, by consensus a senior member will be recommended to Paris and Paris will appoint this person as its representative. The representative did not have any powers to over rule the decisions of the elected Board of Directors of the Colorado Corporation. About two years ago, two events took place. For the first time, Paris chose not to appoint the person recommended by the members in the US. Secondly, Paris wanted changes to the bylaws of the Colorado Corporation. The stipulation was that the appointed Representative is to have veto powers on any and every decision taken by the Board of Directors. Once anything vetoed, the Board of Directors had no choice but to accede to the veto. So in effect the Representative would run the decisions of the Colorado Corporation by Veto and the Representative is not answerable anyone but Paris. In many other countries, especially those which had been colonies of Great Britain and other European Countries, this kind of veto wielding Representative is very acceptable since these countries are used to accepting the representatives of the Colonial powers and to them it seems nothing unusual. ======== end of part 1 of 3 === From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:16:52 +0100 From: "Martin Euser" Subject: Reply to Einar Message-ID: <199702030016.BAA16370@venus.euro.net> Einar: thanks for the overview of your courses. I will focus on some points for the sake of discussion and further clarification. > > Firstly these courses are about what would translate strictly as "Mind > Culture", but could go as Self-culture. To start wit I emphasize the wisdom of the ancient > yoga, taking base in the definition by Patanjali, i.e. that real yoga consists in > controlling or suppressing the thought-processes, thus learning to know the inner > programming structure of ourselves and by that gaining control of every situation > in our life. Wow. That alone can take more than one life time to master. I introduce a few important technical terms, like the principle of > oneness, the mystical experience, the pure awareness, and few terms we use > when probing the working of the psyche. I use the division of Instincts, > Emotions, Feelings or Sensitivity, Thought-processes, Insight, etc. This division is also used by the group I'm a member of in my country. It ties in with the approach of getting to know oneself better. . > > I ascertain the "universal awareness model", which states that in our innermost > being we are Pure Awareness, witnesses, rather than thinkers or doers, and > certainly not our body, - that the "I" is unreal, a thought, a collection of memories > over a long period of time, that we are really processes rather than things. Maybe we are all of these aspects at the same time, but I get the idea. > > This is all followed up by relating it to daily living examples. This seems one of the most important aspects of teaching: relating ideas/concepts/technical terms to real life examples. That's the part I would like you to elaborate a upon especially. > > One important thing is to understand the difference between words, Ideas, > hypothesis, opinions and believes, on the one hand and reality and "what Is" on > the other hand. Indeed. A vital thing to understand. "The map is not the territory" as Korzybski, the developer of the science of general semantics (gs) said. Vitvan has constructed his rephrasal of the perennial wisdom to a large degree on principles from gs (eg., the process of perception, abstraction of info that passes from the senses into one's mind). > > Another basic lecture is about learning to "un-believe", i.e. to use "positive doubt" > on every single idea and believe that comes our way. A certain mind is a closed > mind, whereas a mind that denies itself of being certain of anything, but at the > same time gives every theory a chance, one that never believes fully, but at the > same time never condemns, is a truly open mind, and only an open mind can > learn something new. Yes, theosophy is not about belief, but rather provides a starting point for the exploration of the Self, self and multiple levels of awareness. > > One important thing I explore before going into the Meditation, which is an > important part of the program: There are different "laws" governing the "Inner > Reality" of ourselves than the outer space and time world. The most important > factor is the UNITY OF INNER SPACE. There are no "others" inside me, so I can't > use will or force to change anything there! - Yes this needs some explaining, but > it's a FACT, if you look at it. What are you trying to say here? You mean you don't acknowledge the existence of a vital-astral part, a thinking part, a spiritual part, etc. as relatively autonomous parts? Or what is your angle on that? > > If I want to change something in my psyche by willing or using force, there have > to be two entities, the one that wants to change, and someone or something that > resists the change. This breeds inner conflict, a "psychological personality split" > that perpetuates our phobias and manias, and with it all the conflicts in the outer > world. The only really successful process to relieve the inner conflict is to > "know thyself", a rally profound understanding or insight into what we really > are. Then all inner conflicts and psychological problems will simply automatically > evaporate from the Psyche. This is where meditation comes in, an introspection > free of both craving and self-condemnation, and at best, free of any movement > of thought altogether. 'Know thyself' is a profound exhortation from the Delphic oracle. I'm not so sure, however, whether inner conflicts, etc. will simply evaporate.Eventually, yes. But the getting to understand oneself can be a very painful process where one learns to let go of old patterns which may be very deep-rooted indeed. There is one point I agree with here and that is the point that use of personal will to cause changes may cause a personality split. The reason for that is that one may not be ready to transcend a certain phase of development and that one will be thrown back into the old phase in order to experience it further (just my point of view). I also think that one must consider the fact that one is integrated in the 'race-psyche' and emancipation from this 'field' of emotions/thoughts/energies marks a very important step on the path of development of consciousness. > This of course needs an extensive probing with a lot of reference to our > common experience, and also a lot of discussion. One thing here - there are two > "types" of will, a personal will, that is "egoistic" and really only an expression of > our desires, and there is an "Inner Will" that is of a totally different nature, and > which will emerge naturally with the inner insight of meditation and spiritual > work. This inner will is what slowly takes over all our inner processes and > eventually brings total harmony in our lives. Agreed. > > This is only a very short and incomplete description of the first part of our Self- > culture session. > > In the second session I go further into the "Oneness-Principle" relating to both > outer and inner processes. In third and fourth session I take them through the > "inner cleaning process, dealing with emotions, attitudes, believes and opinions, > criticism, envy and jealousy, egoism and the tyranny of ownership, the > problems of codependency and incorrect relationships, on to the positive thinking, > forgiving and loving, the art of giving and sharing, etc. This part has made it to the Celestine Prophecy :) and is about practical psychology. I like that. Here I introduce the law > of karma and relate it to the daily life. In psychological terms, I gather? I > Session five is dedicated to health and the healing from every thinkable aspects, > emphasizing that health stems from within, Yes! Mens sana in corpore sano. A healthy spirit in a healthy body as the Roman proverb has it. But it has its basis in a healthy spirit rather than in the body. and the sixth session is dedicated to > the introduction of traditional Yoga and spiritual practices. Which meditation practices do you encourage? > > Hope this isn't too longish. Not at all. Also a good starting point for some discussion :) Martin > Love and light, > > Einar. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/Theosophy/Overview.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 18:23:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS Elections - An Excerpt Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203002359.00749b88@mail.eden.com> At 06:39 PM 2/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >>E. Wood: >> Thus the election which ought to have been a courtly record of policy and >> opinion - a manifestation of brotherhood in a society established "to form a >> nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity" - degenerated into >> something worse than any political election I have ever known. Alas, that >> every experiment in brotherhood should fail, on reaching a modicum of >> material prosperity. >> >It seems that Arundale wanted to be the head of TS so badly, wanted and >desired it so much, that he decided it was worth any action or tactic on >his part, as long as he got to the top. > >This is what every soap opera is made of - people who want desire >a person, a thing, a position so much that they will stoop to anything to >get it. Essentially, Wood was saying that TS had turned into a soap opera. > >-AEB There was much more than Arundale's aspiration at stake. When AB died, very soon CWL also died. On the ES side, from AB the ES leadership was passed on to CJ. If Wood was elected there would have been serious problems with membership because of the reputation of Wood and his unquestionable integrity and his policy of keeping TS administrative matters outside that of ES. When all else seems to fail, they will bring in the "Master's" wishes and every one in the Sheep group will fall in line and that is what happened. Wood was, from then on an outcast as far as the establishment was concerned. He moved to the USA and from what I understand, TSA would not even sponsor him as a lecturer. This is not an unusual pattern and you may have seen it repeated, when someone not supported from within challenges the supported candidate for an elected office, especially the highest one. Wood settled down in Houston and died I believe sometime in 1950. Very few in Houston at that time knew his real background. ..MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:44:23 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: The LCC Message-ID: <9702030044.AA03225@toto.csustan.edu> AEB >Well, those potential high-flyers must have working >wives support them while they pursue this course, or they manage >to function without sleep. Active holy orders would require >their Sundays, not to mention clergy and vestry meetings. Co-M >is at least several hours once a month in this area. I have >no idea when the ES meets or how often. JHE Yes, the younger ones work or are supported by a spouse. Older ones are retired or live on investments. AEB >They also better be well off, as the clergy robes at >the LCC have to be tailored to CWL's specs (unless you have a >wife who is handy at sewing - but there's still the material. >Linen is $10-15 a yard.) And in the Co-M, you pay more the >higher you climb through the lodges. Is there a fee for ES? JHE That is where the women come in. We had a woman in Los Angeles who sewed all of the robes. She did a beautiful job too--they looked real professional. No fee for the ES, but you are expected to be active in a TS Lodge if possible. AEB I strongly suspect that the requirements to be a part of all these groups were made at a time when people had more time. JHE Right. People did have more time--even thirty years ago. But this expectation is for those who were to carry on the torch--so to speak. They called it "coming through the ranks." It seems that the whole thing is dying anyway, and the torch is not being passed on. The old guard is dying off and no one seems to be replacing them, with the possible exception of Betty Bland and a couple of people Radha favors. AEB >I had heard about the split, but was told it was about one group >trying to take all the resources and form another group. Are >you saying that another Co-Masonic group that is not linked with >TS is a potential threat? JHE Annie Besant was very involved with the Larkspur Co-Masons, which was originally chartered by the Supreme Council of International Co-Masonry in Paris France. The explanation you heard that one group is trying to take the resources to form another group is one of those pat explanations they use to hide the fact that it is another one of those shameful power struggles the TS can't resist. You might remember hearing it before as an explanation for the Boston Lodge. As for the details, I frankly haven't been interested enough to look into it. Regarding the link to the TS, what I'm trying to say is that like the LCC, the Co-M is an organization that TS leaders used to "come up through the ranks" as I mentioned before. But I also suspect that the TS feels of lot of vested interest in the organization anyway because of Besant's connection with it. JHE >> Perhaps the LCC will also eventually >> split and the whole system in the TS will fall apart. AEB Numerous priests and clergy have gone off to start their own churches or join other independent ones. JHE Another sign of the continuing decay of the old Besant/Leadbeater/Arundale system. >> JHE >> Great. I've noticed that the TS doesn't seem to be threatened >> by Maharishi philosophy. I wonder what would happen if Alice >> Bailey people filled the church. AEB I'm not sure they'd be interested. JHE Nor am I. As I understand the Bailey teachings, the whole thing is regarded as a failed experiment. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 18:41:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Compensation at Olcott/Wheaton Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203004109.00725b90@mail.eden.com> Several years ago, I brought up with the HQ the idea of publishing the compensation of the five highest compensated individuals each year, just like what is being done with all larger corporations. When such corporations can do it, why not TSA? The idea behind it is that if as is heard through grapevine, most of them are paid minimal subsistence wages, it would bring to the attention of all members the need to improve the wage conditions and some members who can afford may come up with donations or other financial support. But on the other hand, if the actual wages paid a very high in the *eyes* of the membership, they are going to question why such high wages are paid and the leadership has to provide convincing answers. Otherwise it will dry up financial donations from the membership. There is also the third issue. If most are just surviving in subsistence wages and some are paid high wages, then the leadership has to explain to those who are in subsistence wages why they are being paid so low. This is a natural issue that should be addressed head on. When I proposed the disclosure, the initial reaction from some of the Board Members was very positive; But soon the HQ became very cool and nothing was heard. MKR Again, it is this "unnecessary" secrecy (as refered to in 1900 letter from Master KH) that is not productive and helpful to anyone but those who want to keep these secrets as secrets. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 02:21:46 +0100 From: "Martin Euser" Subject: Attention, Russian immigrants: URLs for spiritual, Yoga & theosophical Russian literature Message-ID: <199702030120.CAA28137@venus.euro.net> Forwarded at the request of Kay Ziatz: This posting aims to provide russian emigrants all over the world an access to theosophical literature in Russian. If you know of any appropriate newsgroups, etc. where this file can be posted please let me know. Martin Euser ---------------------------- | Jack-in-the-Box' Library | ---------------------------- (Kiev, Ukraine) http://www.topaz.kiev.ua/users/kirill ftp://www.topaz.kiev.ua/pub/doc/jack_lib Mirror site in Magadan, Russia: ftp://ftp.tts.magadan.su/pub/books/Mirror/Kirill One more mirrorsite: http://193.124.73.165/~alex/lib/ - in KOI8 (may be unreadable under windows) ftp://193.124.73.164/pub/mirror/lib/ Mirrorsite pending: www.jc.f1.ru Important note: All files listed below are in Russian language! Code page normally used is 866. Filelist date: 6/V-1996 Dir: /INDIA raja1.ha Ramacharaka - "Raja yoga" 133 Kb rokotova.ha E.Roerich - basics of Buddhism 53 Kb chaterji.ha Chatterji. Esoteric philosophy of India 61 Kb bh-gita.ha Bhagavad-gita, transl. by A. Kamenska 47 Kb cryptogr.ha E.Roerich - Cryptogrammes of East 33 Kb vedanta.ha Vedanta-sutra 24 Kb dhammapd.ha Dhammapada 22 Kb tibetbud.ha Dalai-lama XIV - Buddhism of Tibet 22 Kb krsnmrti.ha Krishnamurti. At the feet of Master 15 Kb vivekan.ha Swami Vivekananda. Inspired talks 10 Kb nogate.ha Umen Hueikei. Frontierpost without gate 18 Kb kalach.ha U.N. Roerich. On study of Kalachakra 14 Kb paraloka.ha Paralokasiddhi, w/comm by U.N. Roerich. 13 Kb Dir: /AGNY (Teaching of Agni-yoga) zov.ha Moria Garden leaves I. Call 1924 44 Kb ozarenie.ha Moria Garden leaves II. Illumination '25 84 Kb obschina.ha Commonwealth 1926 88 Kb agnyyoga.ha Agni-yoga 1929 135 Kb besprd_1.ha Unlimitness I 1930 67 Kb besprd_2.ha Unlimitness II 1930 71 Kb ierarhia.ha Hierarchy 1931 78 Kb serdce.ha Heart 1932 115 Kb mir-ogn1.ha Fireworld. Part I 1933 131 Kb mir-ogn2.ha Fireworld. Part II 1934 89 Kb mir-ogn3.ha Fireworld. Part III 1935 108 Kb aum.ha Aum 1936 98 Kb bratst_1.ha Brotherhood I 1937 95 Kb bratst_2.ha Brotherhood II 1937 288 Kb bratst_3.ha Brotherhood III 1938 132 Kb letters1.ha Letters of E.I. Roerich part I 292 Kb letters2.ha II 302 Kb letters3.ha III 313 Kb agniopyt.ha E.I. Roerich. Fire experience 53 Kb ererih01.ha E.I. Roerich on true patriotism 2 Kb nrerih.ha N.K.Roerich. Shining Shambhala 24 Kb srerih.ha S.Roerich. Art & people 5 Kb yurerih.ha Everyday advices by U.Roerich 2 Kb nrerih02.ha N.K.Roerich. Adamant 7 Kb rudzit01.ha R.Rudzitis. Brotherhood of Graal 82 Kb Dir: /THEOSOPH epb01.ha Blavatsky. Key to theosophy 211 Kb epb02.ha Blavatsky. Nightmare tales 122 Kb epb03-01.ha Blavatsky. "New panarion" - 49 Kb epb03-02.ha different articles from magazines 52 Kb epb03-03.ha - 49 Kb epb03-04.ha - 53 Kb epb03-05.ha - 26 Kb epb03-06.ha - 61 Kb epb04.ha Blavatsky. "Elementals" 33 Kb epb05.ha Blavatsky. Kabbala & kabbalists in XIXc. 15 Kb epb06.ha Blavatsky. Genity 9 Kb epb07.ha Blavatsky. Theory of cycles 8 Kb epb08.ha Blavatsky. Magic 7 Kb epb09.ha Blavatsky. Apollony of Tiana & Simon mag. 6 Kb epbbiogr.ha Mary Nef. Memoires of Blavatsky (biogr) 229 Kb theodict.ha G.Mead. Theosophical dictionary 334 Kb mahatm01.ha Letters of Masters of wisdom, part I 43 Kb mahatm02.ha Letters of Masters of wisdom, part II 72 Kb bezant01.ha A.Besant. Structure of Kosmos 56 Kb bezant02.ha A.Besant. Comments to Bhagavad-gita 49 Kb bezant03.ha A.Besant. What is Theosophy? 10 Kb bezant04.ha A.Besant. Perfect man 9 Kb bezant05.ha A.Besant. Mysticism 5 Kb bezant06.ha A.Besant. Ancient wisdom 132 Kb teosophy.ha A.Besant. Misteries of life... 36 Kb lidbit01.ha C.Leadbeater. Mental plane 56 Kb lidbit02.ha C.Leadbeater. The Monad 14 Kb lidbit03.ha C.Leadbeater. Difficuties in clairvoyanc.11 Kb lidbit04.ha C.Leadbeater. Active double 7 Kb lidbit05.ha C.Leadbeater. Astral plane 69 Kb lidbit06.ha C.Leadbeater. Outline of Theosophy 30 Kb pisareva.ha E.Pisareva. Karma - low of causes & con. 20 Kb raddabai.ha V.Zhelihovska. Truth about Blavatsky 47 Kb kamenska.ha A.Kamenska. Diary of theosophist 8 Kb klisovsk.ha A.I.Klizovsky. Truth about Masonry 26 Kb bowen.ha P.Bowen. HPB on studying "Secret Doctr." 6 Kb veimeer.ha F.Wehmeer. Seeng aura through color filt. 6 Kb theobook.ha Book order Catalogue of TPH, Adyar 1995 5 Kb Dir: /MAGIC hautemag.ha Piobb. Ancient highest magic 33 Kb agrippa4.ha Agrippa. Occult philosophy, part 4 23 Kb duhi.ha Nature spirit magic 7 Kb okkmason.ha Manley Hall. Occult masonry 5 Kb Dir: /CHRIST vvedenie.ha Comments to apocryphes 22 Kb iu-chris.ha Comments to Judeo-christian apocryphes 21 Kb apo-ioa.ha Apocryph of Iohann 34 Kb eva-foma.ha Gospel of Thoma 32 Kb eva-esse.ha Essean gospel of peace 27 Kb eva-fili.ha Gospel of Philipp 25 Kb protoeva.ha Gospel of Iacob 23 Kb eva-petr.ha Gospel of Peter 22 Kb comevptr.ha Comments to Gospel of Peter 15 Kb eva-chil.ha Childhood gospel of Thoma 18 Kb eva-mari.ha Gospel of Maria 9 Kb grom.ha Thunder. The perfect mind 13 Kb agrafa.ha Non-canonic quotations (Agrapha) 15 Kb medieval.ha On decline of medieval worldview 11 Kb kartash.ha A.Kartashow. How Origen was condemned 6 Kb Dir: /CC kk01.ha 8 well-known 136 Kb kk02.ha books of 162 Kb kk03.ha Carlos 165 Kb kk04.ha Castaneda 172 Kb kk05.ha 186 Kb kk06.ha 185 Kb kk07.ha 160 Kb kk08.ha 142 Kb sonvedmy.ha F.Donner. Witch's dream 145 Kb Dir: /CHINA dao.ha Tao te Jing 13 Kb chinaman.ha A.Tuerin. Conception of man in old China 16 Kb tsigun.ha C.Daolai,L.Jisheng "Chigung & philosophy" 7 Kb chinarel.ha Outlines on chinese religions 16 Kb Dir: /FICTION bach01.ha R.Bach. J. Livingston seagull 20 Kb bach02.ha R.Bach. Illusuions 50 Kb bach03.ha R.Bach. One 77 Kb bach04.ha R.Bach. Bridge over Eternity 213 Kb bach06.ha R.Bach. Letter of god-afraiding man 7 Kb bach05.ha Interview w/R.Bach. 16 Kb livedead.ha E.Barker. Letters of Living Dead vol.I 79 Kb [vols II & III also available, dunno filenames] collins1.ha M.Collins. Idyll of white lotus 74 Kb collins2.ha M.Collins. When Sun goes north 51 Kb judge.ha W.Q.Judge. Mystical tales 34 Kb taffy.ha Taffy. Primates 5 Kb lewis01.ha Lewis. Silver armchair 82 Kb lewis02.ha Lewis. Magician's nephew 66 Kb lewis03.ha Lewis. Cruise od morning traveller 103 Kb christin.ha Maid Christine (WRI file) 90 Kb Dir: /ANTIQUIT fedon.ha Platon. Phaedon 49 Kb orphei.ha E.Churet "Great initiated" v.5 "Orpheos" 28 Kb faraj.ha Abu'l Faraj. Physiognomics 4 Kb pifagor.ha Pythagore. Golden rhymes 3 Kb Dir: /STUFF veget.ha Griboluebov. On vegetarianism 12 Kb yoga-leo.ha Tales of Yogi Leopold-Yamaraja 12 Kb lenin.ha S.Pechkin. Lenin as a mythological hero 9 Kb ussr-txt.ha V.Guzhov. On occultism of Soviet state 7 Kb vantala.ha Words of Vantala 7 Kb doctor.ha S.Leacock. How to became a doctor 4 Kb dubmake.ha Von Drei. How to make a double 3 Kb egypt.ha Book of Egypt (Published by Sidorov) 6 Kb Latest uploads (dir unknown, filenames unsure) nawazhd.ha A.Bailey. Glamour: the world problem popolvuh.ha Popol-vuh - book of Kiche folk bodies.ha A.Besant. Man & his bodies esochr.ha A.Besant. Esoteric christianity almazsut.ha Diamond sutra faust.ha Book on Faust 1587 (real story of Faust, not Goethe's hambug!) okkm-hpb.ha Occult word of m-me Blavatsky (compilation of many authors) kath_up.ha Katha upanishad w/comments by Shankaracharya okk-anat.ha Manley Hall. Occult anatomy of man All files are packed by HA archiver (c) by Harry Hirvola Because it provides the best compression ratio for text files You may also download it from this site --- This is only tearline... * Origin: Ubice centrum et nullibi circumferential (2:5020/360.4) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 20:14:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: LCC and (Co)Freemasonry Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203021459.0068f0f4@mail.eden.com> Re: LCC and (Co)Freemasonry, it is rather odd that Co-Freemasonry was supported by AB and TS because the Co-Freemasonry admit women while LCC does not allow ordaining of Women. Couple of decades ago, I would not have been perceptive enough to look at this anamoly in LCC and TS while working towards the first object, support an organization which is discriminatory. All the spiritual explanations might have satisfied those who did not think. Today, to most of us who are very sensitive to discrimination in any form or fashion (either overly or covertly), LCC's policies are shocking. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 21:18:18 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: LCC Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203031818.006f7e20@mail.eden.com> Dear Ann: Here are some excerpts from "A SHORT HISTORY OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY" on LCC. In this year (1916) he (CWL)entered the Liberal Catholic Church, was consecrated a Bishop by the Rt. Rev. J. 1. Wedgwood, and made Regionary Bishop of Australia, 22 July. He intimated that an exalted member of the Occult Hierarchy had recommended that there were three ways in which the members of The Society should show how things should be done: 1. In Education; to show what schools should be in the hands of those working selflessly for the children they love 2. The Ideal Church; with a purified ritual, to be in the hands of Theosophists. 3. Co-Freemasonry; in which Theosophy should supply the ideal Freemasonry, and the universal inclusion of women. Two other suggestions were: a. A Medical College, in which no vivisection would be allowed, no alcohol and no tobacco; b. To experiment with simple Theosophical Communities.With these activities, it was thought, Theosophists might usefully concern themselves, adding them to the intellectual headway being made everywhere.' Mrs. Besant received the same instructions and sent them to Bishop Leadbeater, their letters crossing on the way. In Australia, (1918) Mr. Martyn felt disturbed about the development of the Old (Liberal) Catholic Church. Bishop Leadbeater had been so closely associated with the work of the Society in Australia, that Martyn felt his vigorous promotion of the Church would lead to confusion of the two in the public mind. At the Convention, March, Martyn submitted three Resolutions: 1. That the Theosophical Society disclaims any official association with the Old Catholic Church, or any division of the Christian Church or with any other Religious organization, and reasserts its firm adherence to the first Object of the Society . . . 2. That the activities of The Theosophical Society and the Old Catholic Church be at all times carefully distinguished from each other, and conducted in different premises; 3. That all priestly titles in the Old Catholic Church be avoided in connection with Theosophical activities. Most speakers heartily endorsed the spirit of the Resolutions. Bishop Leadbeater emphasized that there was no official relation whatever between the two organizations but in the minds of many there seemed to be a connection because the same great Masters were behind both. Mr. Martyn (1919) went on a visit to the United States, and was warmly received as a lecturer and well-known worker. He did not approve of the Constitution of the Liberal Catholic Church and wished it to be remodelled. He wanted the Church to be conducted by volunteer laymen (instead of by professional priests), not set apart from the world, but ordained in the prescribed manner. Since Mr. Warrington was head of both The Theosophical Society, as General Secretary (or National President, as is the title used in the United States), and of the E. S., opinion had grown up that these posts combined gave him too much power. A group was presently formed which worked under the title of "Towards Democracy League," urged by the idea that the Society, as such, should be free from all entanglements with any Cause whatsoever. A study of the magazines of this period shows that there was an uneasiness lest the priesthood of the Liberal Catholic Church, composed mostly of prominent workers in The Society, should lead to the dominance of ecclesiastical influence, and so draw it into the sectarianism from which it had always kept clear. Many Sections passed resolutions disclaiming any official association with any and all divisions of the Christian Church, or with any religious or anti-religious bodies, and affirmed the entire liberty of belief or disbelief of each Fellow, and his freedom to work in any organizations he might wish "whether closely associated in the public mind with The Theosophical Society or not." When the American Section met in Convention, Chicago, 4 September, the question of the relation of The Society to the Liberal Catholic Church was very fully discussed, for it was charged by some that if priests of the Church worked at Krotona [#1] this was a " rank violation of the ideals which The Society was founded." Mr. Warrington pointed out that though "sanction and encouragement" had been given to the new Church by Mrs. Besant and Bishop Leadbeater, the Society as such had not done so. He recalled that the "same kind of sanction and encouragement was given to Buddhism by Col. Olcott and Mr. Leadbeater, and to Hinduism by Mrs. Besant in the early days . . . "A cablegram was received from Sydney from Bishops Wedgwood, Leadbeater and Cooper declaring "Society and Church absolutely independent." a Opinion was expressed that there was danger in having pledged priests in official positions, as that might result in complete dominance of The Society by the head of the L.C.C. It was urged that all priests of the L.C.C. holding offices or positions of trust in the Section be asked to resign, in order that the Theosophical Society might preserve impartiality towards all religions and sects. A cablegram was sent to Mrs. Besant asking her opinion, and she replied that she " disapproved any disabilities imposed on religious grounds. [#1 In 1910 a Theosophical centre was started, in pursuance of Mrs Besant's recommendation to Mr. Warrington to found a centre, which was to be a training ground for leaders, and to establish and maintain a School or Institute of Theosophy. In April 1912 a site was purchased in Hollywood, and named Krotona. When Mr. Warrington became General secretary in 1912, both The Theosophical society and the E.S. were combined in Krotona and the property was under Mrs Besant's control, but managed by a local committee It proved somewhat difficult to maintain financially In 1919.21 problems arose, and criticism was focussed on Krotona Eventually, 1922, Mrs. Besant decided to sell sufficient of the property to pay off the mortgage, and to retain a suitable section of the Estate for the E.S.. Anyone thinking the property was owned directly by the American section could have his donation transferred to the Section. The Section Headquarters were transferred back to Chicago and finally to Wheaton. The whole property was eventually sold. The Krotona Institute and the E S offices were transferred to a new Krotona at Ojai] In the March (1920)Theosophist, Mrs. Besant published a " Letter to the T.S. on the Liberal Catholic Church." She said that Brotherhood without distinction was often called "neutrality," but meant "a loving recognition of each creed as one of the roads by which the Highest may be reached . . . a readiness to serve all. . . " The unwise zeal of some Church members had caused friction in Great Britain, Australasia and America. Protestant traditional feelings against Roman Catholicism played their part. She regretted her name had been used by both sides. "Lectures on Religions come within our Second Object; proselytism breeds antagonism and is against our principles."Lodges were at liberty to restrict their membership to members of a particular religion, but should be careful not to grow narrow. There was need to recall Christianity to its deeper spiritual principles and to bring back the more occult teachings.... It was the policy of The Theosophical Society definitely not to identify itself with any doctrinal or theological issue of any religion or church, or to limit in any way the "broad platform of our Theosophical Movement which we especially cherish.... " MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:56:25 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Reality (to Tom) Message-ID: <970202225434_304442830@emout07.mail.aol.com> Tom Robertson writes--> I infer that you disagree with HPB's idea, as expressed in "The Secret Doctrine," that homogeneous spirit and matter are eternal. I see no reason not to believe it. Jerry Schueler writes--> No, I agree with HPB. But what is "homogeneous matter?" She means that spirit and matter per se always exist in some form. But material atoms and molecules come and go, just like all material forms come and go. All aggragates or compounds are maya, as Buddhism teaches. In the above quote, HPB is referring to Purusha and Prakriti as defined in Hinduism. This is not spirit and matter as we normally think of them, but rather their original states. Richard Ihle writes--> Because I am persuaded that THE SECRET DOCTRINE has "much in common" with the Sankhya theosophy of Kapila, I was surprised to see Tom's reference to "HPB's idea that homogeneous spirit and matter are eternal." Is this just a paraphrase, Tom, or do you have a particular reference? (Don't worry about it if you don't.) While the idea of "universal spirit" is true enough, I would be surprised to learn that HPB juxtaposed it with "universal matter" somewhere since it would tend to confuse a Kapila-influenced basic notion of Prakriti and Purusha. ~Prakriti~ I regard as universal matter-Spirit in its eternal, self-existing form. Purusha exists apart, of course, but can get "snagged" into cosmic evolution because its ultra-rarefied Nature has a "verisimilitude" with the ultra-rarefied Nature of one of Prakriti's "components"--Buddhi. I simply translate ~Buddhi~ as "Spirit" (notwithstanding the psychological spin of "discrimination" usually put on it), and so does HPB at least in one place (Vol. XII, p. 53, COLLECTED WRITINGS). In any case, it seems to be both Kapila's and my understanding that ~Buddhi~ is the "most rarefied" form of matter. "Universal matter" makes sense as ~Prakriti~ in the manner Jerry describes it; however, while "Spirit" is also universal in its role as the highest "gradient" of matter, it IS NOT equivalent in Kapila's system to ~Purusha~, which is ~Atman~, "Self," or "Soul," I believe. It was not clear to me from the post whether Jerry was translating ~Purusha~ as "Spirit" or "Soul." I hope it was the latter, but I will continue to like him either way. (In Tom's case, however, I'm keeping my affections on hold for a while longer to see if Ann warms up to him first. . . .) (Just kidding; I like him, too.) Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 05:27:44 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Different Values? Message-ID: <330a6c89.14596593@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Jerry S. wrote: > There are numberless universes, ours being but one. When >our universe began at the Big Bang, there were only a few universal >constants present during the initial conditions, that ultimately led >to the universe around us as we know it. A very small change to >any of the constants would have produced a different universe. This >idea is not mine, and you can find the details in what is called the >Anthropic Principle. Einstein showed that our universe is spherical >and thus does not go on and on forever. The teaching of multiple >universes is well-known in Buddhism. If our universe is limited and is one of numberless universes, that seems to mean that the numberless universes go on and on infinitely. Although this seems to mean that space is infinite, I agree with only using terms for what can be defined, since there is no such thing as "the whole universe," if the word "universe" means all that exists. I doubt if very many people use the word "universe" for a limited area, though. Scientists use the term "the known universe" to distinguish it from everything else that is unknown, referring to the aggregate of what is known and what is unknown as "the universe." >HPB was >correct to use the word eternal in the sense of the duration of this >manvantara. Thus, nothing is truly eternal but the divine monads, which >end one manvantaric manifestation only to begin another, without >beginning or end. Remember, the concept of beginning and end requires >the concept of time, else they make no sense. The divine monads are >beyond time, or timeless, and thus the concept of beginning and end >do not apply to them. That time could be anything other than linear and that space could be curved are ideas I do not grasp. How the surface of the earth appears to be linear, but is both curved, limited, and boundless is the closest I can come to imagining them. > The word "objective" should not be limited to physical. It should apply to any object of perception, including oneself when one is aware of oneself. >>I don't see why it has to be materialistic. My greatest attraction to >>Theosophy is the Society's founder's and early leaders' claim to know >>universal, objective, metaphysical, eternal truths. > Wow! I wan't aware of any such claims. HPB said much about such truths, such as cyclicity and the one divine, homogeneous substance-principle, etc. I did not mean to equate objective with physical. >>The value of one's existence >>depends to a great extent on the accuracy of perception. > I truly hope that this does not mean what it sounds like. >If you are suggesting that animals are of less value than humans, >then I have to disagree. If you are suggesting that Jews have >less value than Russians, then again I disagree. If you are >suggesting that illiterates have less value than university >professors, then again I disagree. If you are suggesting that >chelas have less value than adepts, then again I disagree, >and so on. Assuming that committing suicide is evil for the two given individuals in question, the life of an individual who correctly perceives that there is no bridge across the Grand Canyon, and who therefore does not try to walk across it, has more value than the life of an individual who incorrectly believes there is a bridge across the Grand Canyon, since he might try to walk across it and if so, will fall to the bottom of the canyon. If accurately perceiving objective reality is not better than inaccurately perceiving it, what does anything matter? This is defining "value" differently from the way you took it, but while we are on the subject of comparing the value of certain individuals, I also believe that no two individuals are of the same value. I see no reason why Jews and Russians would be of any different value from each other, but human beings are more valuable than animals, university professors are more valuable than illiterates, and adepts are more valuable than chelas, in that they are more evolved. To consider everything to be of the same value would make the making of decisions impossible. If microbes are as valuable as human beings, what justifies a human being breathing, when each breath kills hundreds of thousands of them? If dust mites are as valuable as human beings, what justifies washing one's sheets, which kills hundreds of thousands of them? I tried to be a vegetarian out of pure principle until I learned these things. All life supports itself by killing. There is no greater fantasy than "ahimsa." Competition is an inherent part of life. >>Insanity is the karma of preferring fantasy to reality > Well, I suppose it could be, but your broad brush here would >label everyone who goes to Disneyland as insane. Why spend >time and money on the fantasy world of Disney, when we can sit home >with reality? I prefer to think that reality itself is a fantasy, and that >all life is magical. I probably should have said "insanity is the karma of confusing fantasy and reality." In the sense that ideals, which only exist as potentialities, must be preferred over actualities, everyone must prefer fantasy to reality. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:20:22 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: [Q's and ponderences] Message-ID: Hi All, Just a few simple q's. Firstly, what are the differences between Kumaras,Adepts, and particularly Arhats? What are their relationships? Are Kumaras the same as the Chohans? Secondly, I am interested in these discussions on the LCC and Co-Masonry. I don't know anything about either of these. Is Co-Masonry directly linked with the Freemasons? Thirdly, I've been wondering about the future sixth root race, our sex relations, and how the new impulse is likely to come about. It has always been my opinion that enforced asceticism is a negative thing, it implies IMO imbalance of our functions. But just last night I've read in the SD that one of the Chohans stated, in different words, that their disciples should have no physical relations, because they would fall into the death/rebirth cycle, and that later they would would be the seeds of the next race. My ideas towards asceticism is possibly changing because of this. I might be incorrect in this but it was what I was led to believe. I wondered whether the ladies on the list who have such strong views towards men would care to comment? Are they being used as vehicles for this future race or are they simply being vain. I realise that prostituting their vehicles for the male personality defects would be considered wrong, but why are they so negative towards men? It would not IMO be true to say that power in itself equates to imbalance only potential difference which is why I wonder why some women try to attain more of it. What is power, but perhaps life-force. If it is could it mean that men with greater "life-force potential" try to follow the path of least resistance. If this is the case are women selfish if they try to restrain the flow of force? If this is the case what does this mean for the race impulses? I don't know! Any ideas? Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon Feb 3 06:32:13 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: TS Elections - An Excerpt Message-ID: <199702031132.GAA02962@envirolink.org> M K Ramadoss writes: >At 06:39 PM 2/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >>---------- >>> From: M K Ramadoss >>> >>>E. Wood: >>> Thus the election which ought to have been a courtly record of policy and >>> opinion - a manifestation of brotherhood in a society established "to >>>form a nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity" - degenerated into >>> something worse than any political election I have ever known. Alas, that >>> every experiment in brotherhood should fail, on reaching a modicum of >>> material prosperity. >>> >>It seems that Arundale wanted to be the head of TS so badly, wanted and >>desired it so much, that he decided it was worth any action or tactic on >>his part, as long as he got to the top. >> >>This is what every soap opera is made of - people who want desire >>a person, a thing, a position so much that they will stoop to anything to >>get it. Essentially, Wood was saying that TS had turned into a soap opera. >> >>-AEB > >There was much more than Arundale's aspiration at stake. > >When AB died, very soon CWL also died. >On the ES side, from AB the ES leadership was passed on to CJ. > >Wood settled down in Houston and died I believe sometime in 1950. Very few >in Houston at that time knew his real background. > > >..MKR They all eventually come back from the dead anyway. Five or six times. Maybe AB will come back with amnesia or something. Then we'll find out that Wood faked his death so that he could look for his lost lost cousin Bob. Then HPB's evil twin sister will arrive, destory all of the hpb's and take over the world. Or maybe not? --- The Triaist Cheers. (I'll think of something more serious to post eventually. Lately I haven't had much time to think theophilosophologically. All that has been floating around in my brain are federal regulations. I think I shall now go gnaw my shoulder off.) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:42:45 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Reality (to Tom) Message-ID: <331bd1bf.40455942@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Richard Ihle wrote: >I was surprised to see Tom's reference to "HPB's >idea that homogeneous spirit and matter are eternal." Is this just a >paraphrase, Tom, or do you have a particular reference? It might be a little of both. In Volume 1 of "The Secret Doctrine," on page 582, she writes that "no atom is ever "created," for the atoms are eternal[...]", that "[...] unmodified matter [...] and spirit, are eternally one, [...] immutable and unconsumable, [...] , in eternity [...]." >Purusha exists apart, of course I was of the impression that, just like dozens of other pairs of opposites I could list, spirit cannot exist without matter. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:42:49 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: [Q's and ponderences] Message-ID: <331cd599.41441296@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Ben wrote: >what are the differences between Kumaras,Adepts, and particularly >Arhats? What are their relationships? Are Kumaras the same as the >Chohans? Charles Leadbeater, probably in "Masters and the Path," wrote about how these beings compare to each other. He wrote of 10 possible initiations, that he knew of, that an individual could attain. He wrote that an Arhat is one who had passed the 4th initiation, an Adept is one who had passed the 5th initiation, a Chohan is one who had passed the 6th initiation, a Manu, Bodhisattva, or a Mahachohan is one who had passed the 7th initiation, a Pratyeka Buddha or a Buddha is one who had passed the 8th initiation, a Lord of the World is one who had passed the 9th initiation, and a Silent Watcher is one who had passed the 10th initiation. The 4 Kumaras came from Venus. Sanat Kumara is the Lord of the World of Earth now, while his 3 pupils, who are Pratyeka Buddhas now, will be the next 3 Lords of the World of our globe. I would be surprised if everyone fully agreed with all of this. These subjects are also mentioned in "The Secret Doctrine." >I wondered whether the ladies on the list who have such strong views >towards men would care to comment? Are they being used as vehicles for >this future race or are they simply being vain. I realise that prostituting their >vehicles for the male personality defects would be considered wrong, but >why are they so negative towards men? At least one of them (and probably all of them, since all women always band together against us) says that to call a man a sexist pig is to insult pigs. I'm not sure, since I'm never one to express an opinion very strongly, but I think she meant to criticize men. Or, maybe she was kidding - that must be it! As long as they aren't sexist, though, whatever they say is fine with me. >What is power, but perhaps life-force. >If it is could it mean that men with greater "life-force potential" try to >follow the path of least resistance. If this is the case are women selfish >if they try to restrain the flow of force? Women are selfish if they do not give men whatever they want ("they" meaning men, not women). From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:22:02 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: The Big Three Message-ID: <199702031321.IAA26876@cliff.cris.com> > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > For example, in Mary Lutyens' memoir of Krishnamurti's youth (I think it's To > Be Young), she refers to Leadbeater coming to great them in Sydney leaning on > the arm of his then favorite very young man. Now, from what we know of > Leadbeater's behavior, it doesn't take much to infer why he was the favorite. > In fact, from the description, it is damned obvious. CWL was wearing a purple cassock and leaning on his current golden-haired favorite, as Emily tells it in "Candle in the Sun". I had to smile at that one. > > The problem with the inner circle of the TS at that time was that they were > like the three men on the desert island who got very rich by trading their > hats around. They only talked to each other and only listened to each other > and fed off each other so that there was no force to remind them that what > they were saying was nonsense. The airhead--er--arhat business is a prime > example. So they had these three organizations, actually independant of each > other, but they figured out a way to sort of glue them to serve their > purposes, only they didn't consciously know that. They actually persuaded > themselves that they had found the key to the future of humanity. Now we, > from our perspective, can easily see that they had simply gone off the deep > end and were ripe for a padded room with a view,but no one who was around > them did until Krishnamurti came to his senses and told everyone to get a > life. My #1 question about K is exactly what "life" did he want them to get? As I read more about him, he NEVER was keen on rituals or organizations even when he was young and being groomed by TS. He seems to me that he was a candidate for a job that he never really wanted. > My take on the big three (LCC,TS/ES, Co-M) at this time is that that they were vehicles to push people's evolution - legit tools. Perhaps the people involved in these organizations began to lose sight of the evolution part and become much more intrigued with the organizational part, especially if they could rise to some powerful position. I also surmise that the reason that those belonging to all three, especially the ES, were candidates for positions of power because they had gone through the evolutionary process and were either initiates or on their way to becoming initiates. The idea of having organizations headed by people who were supposed to be spiritually ahead must have been desirable. But did it always work? I think even initiates can fail. For myself, the LCC was very influential in pushing my evolution and the TS part is more important to me now. How will the big three fare in the future? Will there be new ways of pushing people's evolution and getting them initiated? As Dr. Who said, "Time will tell, it always does." -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 13:22:10 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Reality (to Tom) Message-ID: <3320e43e.44969404@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Richard Ihle wrote: >I was surprised to see Tom's reference to "HPB's >idea that homogeneous spirit and matter are eternal." Is this just a >paraphrase, Tom, or do you have a particular reference? In the footnote on page 10 of volume 1 of "The Secret Doctrine," HPB wrote, regarding Mulaprakriti, which she called "the unmanifested primordial matter," that "it is undifferentiated and eternal." I have always wondered why she wrote, on page 15, that Spirit and Matter are two aspects of the Absolute (Parabrahm), and then on page 18, she wrote that Parabrahmam and Mulaprakriti are the two aspects of the One Principle. Did she differentiate between Parabrahm and Parabrahmam, or between the Absolute and the One Principle? ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 07:25:25 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: [Q's and ponderences] Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203132525.0074c87c@mail.eden.com> At 07:45 AM 2/3/97 -0500, you wrote: >Ben wrote: > >>what are the differences between Kumaras,Adepts, and particularly >>Arhats? What are their relationships? Are Kumaras the same as the >Chohans? > >Charles Leadbeater, probably in "Masters and the Path," wrote about >how these beings compare to each other. He wrote of 10 possible >initiations, that he knew of, that an individual could attain. He >wrote that an Arhat is one who had passed the 4th initiation, an Adept >is one who had passed the 5th initiation, a Chohan is one who had >passed the 6th initiation, a Manu, Bodhisattva, or a Mahachohan is one >who had passed the 7th initiation, a Pratyeka Buddha or a Buddha is >one who had passed the 8th initiation, a Lord of the World is one who >had passed the 9th initiation, and a Silent Watcher is one who had >passed the 10th initiation. > >The 4 Kumaras came from Venus. Sanat Kumara is the Lord of the World >of Earth now, while his 3 pupils, who are Pratyeka Buddhas now, will >be the next 3 Lords of the World of our globe. > >I would be surprised if everyone fully agreed with all of this. > While no one I know can speak from personal knowledge (any Adepts here?) -- it is a very good working hypothesis and HPB spoke about all of the above. In India, traditionally it is accepted that there are liberated men and women and Kumara as a high Official. Kumara means young man. Sanat Kumara probably alludes to his having a body of a young man. It is very common for parents to name the new born as Kumara with various prefixes -- such as Sanat, Ram, Krishna, Raj, Govind, etc. >These subjects are also mentioned in "The Secret Doctrine." ...and in many other books. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 07:33:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: [Q's and ponderences] Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203133309.0073b078@mail.eden.com> At 06:24 AM 2/3/97 -0500, Ben wrote: >Secondly, I am interested in these discussions on the LCC and Co-Masonry. I >don't know anything about either of these. Is Co-Masonry directly linked >with the Freemasons? Glad to see your questions. It is the marvel of Internet that you can ask all these questions and get responses from all over the world. Usually in TS circles people do not talk much openly about LCC and (Co)Masonry. Freemasons do *not* admit women - discriminatory against sex. (Co) Masonry admit women. Traditional LCC also does not allow ordinations of women -- in my humble opinion, discrimination against sex, pure and simple. One of these days I will post a historical background of Co-Masonry. MK Ramadoss >Ben > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 07:39:45 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The Big Three Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203133945.0072d0e0@mail.eden.com> At 08:25 AM 2/3/97 -0500, AEB wrote: >My #1 question about K is exactly what "life" did he want them to get? >As I read more about him, he NEVER was keen on rituals or organizations >even when he was young and being groomed by TS. He seems to me >that he was a candidate for a job that he never really wanted. IMHO, the problem was everyone expected a re-run of what Christ did when He appeared in Palestine. The re-run did not take place. If K was used by the Lord, who can say for sure. If K's msg helps anyone, that is all that matters. Proof of the pudding is in eating. BTW, can you re phrase first part of your question? MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 09:28:58 -0800 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: Western Style of the Mahatmas Message-ID: <199702031730.JAA13626@scv2.apple.com> >In Indian >ashrams salvation through knowledge would have sounded equally ridiculous. While most of your points were well taken, I would have to argue with this one. Jnana-Yoga is a well-established and longstanding limb of the yogic path, and it essentially consists of enlightenment through philosophy. For me, the main factor demonstrating the Western origin of the Theosophical teachings is the casual ease with which Western allusions are scattered through the works of supposedly Eastern writers. While the (Indian or) Tibetan Koot Hoomi, for instance, has no difficulty dropping casual references to the Greek myth of Echo and St. Paul's vision on the road, as well as to contemporary Western writers in great profusion and to European idioms everywhere, his references to actual Eastern words and doctrines are self-conscious, plodding, and relatively rare in comparison to the casual Western allusions; a very small set of ideas is presented over and over, and in a presentational mode rather than the conversational mode in which the Western ideas are often expressed. Here we have a writer who seems much more comfortable in one world than the other -- which world, then, should we think the writer came from? Or should we assume that Spencer's pamphlets on evolutionary philosophy were common reading in the ashrams and lamaseries of the time? Tim Maroney From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 08:11:46 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: (Co) Masonry Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203141146.0068d1d0@mail.eden.com> Here is an excerpt on Co-Masonry: THE BEGINNINGS OF ENGLISH CO-MASONRY BY C. JINARAJADASA Till recently I was under the impression that the first English women to be admitted into Masonry by the Supreme Council of Universal Co-Masonry in Paris were those who went over to Paris to be initiated in the year 1902. The chief of this band was Dr. Annie Besant, but the document which I publish of Madame Maria Martin shows that there were four English ladies, besides Miss Francesca Arundale, who had already been admitted into Co-Masonry. The reason for Dr. Besant joining Co-Masonry is interesting, and on many occasions she herself has described it. One of the most devoted disciples of Madame H. P. Blavatsky was Mrs. Isabel Cooper-Oakley. After H. P. B.'s death, she became deeply attached to Dr. Besant. Mrs. Cooper-Oakley was profoundly drawn to a personage whom historians have denounced as a charlatan; this was the Comte de St. Germain. She had read much concerning various mystical movements in the mid.dle Ages, and her studies showed her that the Comte de St. Germain played a very striking role in certain of the Masonic organizations during the time which preceded the French Revolution. She therefore devoted herself to historical research and travelled to several libraries of Europe, trying to consult original documents. Her thesis, which summarizes the investigations of years, will be found in her book, The Comte de St. Germain, the Secret of Kings (Milan, 1912). A brief synopsis of her thesis is as follows: The Comte de St. Germain was in reality the elder son of Francis Rakoczi, the last Prince of Transylvania. The attempt of Francis to make his country independent of Austrian domination can be read in the old histories. They narrate that he had two sons who, at his flight when defeated, were taken to the court of the Austrian Emperor, to be there educated, but also partly to be held as hostages. It is known to history that, after his flight, Francis was in Turkey, surrounded by his small band, and that from there he tried to regain his country. About a year before his death at Rodosto, the elder son, who was at Vienna, escaped and joined his father. At his father's death, he proclaimed himself Prince of Transylvania; but as a price had been set on his head by the Emperor and as the Church had excommunicated him, matters came to a difficult. History then states that this elder son caught fever and died. There was an official funeral, and the Transylvanian movement for independence came to an end. But Mrs. Cooper-Oakley holds that the young prince did not die; the funeral was a camouflage. She upholds the thesis that the Comte de St. Germain was in fact the young Prince of Transylvania; since a price had been put on his head, he had to disappear off the stage with a funeral, and pass under another name. When many years afterwards he comes into the life of European courts, those who know his real history receive him as one of themselves. One of the mysteries about the Comte de St. Germain is that if he were the impostor and charlatan that he is made out to be, how was it that the King of France and the great nobles treated him as one of themselves! This can partly be accounted for by the story of his possessing magical powers and the secret of alchemy, etc. But Mrs. Cooper-Oakley shows by documents that in reality his treatment and the conferring upon him of various secret missions by the French court was due to the fact that the King of France and others knew who he really was, though of course any claim to the kingdom of Transylvania was out of the question. Madame Blavatsky had mentioned to her disciples that in a previous incarnation she had lived at the time of the French Revolution and had worked with the Comte de St. Germain. It is said in occult tradition that the Comte de St. Germain was given by the Adept Brotherhood a very difficult task to accomplish. This was to change, if possible, the destiny of France so that the French Revolution with all its horrors might be avoided. The Count tried to instill a sense of brotherhood among the nobles and upper classes of France by reviving various degrees of Masonry. He had many disciples through whom he worked, and one was the well-known Count Cagliostro. Of course, we know that the Comte de St. Germain failed to ward off the Revolution; the forces on the side of evil were far too great. Mrs. Cooper-Oakley publishes very striking historical material to show something of the secret plotting and counter-plotting in which the Count was the trusted messenger. As a matter of fact, he tried desperately hard to prevent the debacle, though he knew from his occult knowledge that he probably would not succeed. In connection with this period of history, one day Mrs. Cooper -Oakley talked with Dr. Besant regarding her difficulties of disentangling the various threads of history. The published documents were not sufficiently explanatory, and Mrs. Cooper-Oakley could not fully make out who were the principal agents of the Comte de St. Germain in his work. That same night the Master himself appeared astrally by Dr. Besant's bedside, and he gave her various names of those persons who were concerned with Him in His efforts to revive Masonry in France. She wrote them down, and among them was the name of Count de Zimsky, who was H. P. B. It was on this occasion that the Master intimated to Dr. Besant that she might be of help to Him if she joined Masonry. Dr. Besant knew that Masonry did not admit women, and so wondered how it would be possible for her to join that institution. A year or two afterwards, when talking with Miss F. Arundale on the matter she found, much to her surprise, that Miss Arundale was already a Mason in an organization which admitted women. Dr. Besant desired at once to join this organization, and the letter which follows is explanatory of the preliminary arrangements. It should be mentioned that an elder sister of Miss Francesca Arundale was married to a French gentleman, Monsieur Martin [this is not Dr. George Martin who played such a prominent part in French Co-Masonry]. Madame Maria Martin, Miss Arundale's sister, was a very prominent feminist, and was the first Grand Secretary of the French Co-Masonic Order. She founded in December 1891, the feminist paper Le Journal des Femmes. Through her, Miss Arundale was introduced to Co-Masonry, and she became a Master Mason on August 16, 1896, and received the 33rd degree on September 26, 1904. [From The Theosophist , Jan 1934]====end=== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 08:53:34 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Birthday of the List Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970203145334.0067da3c@mail.eden.com> >Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 06:10:50 -0600 >From: ramadoss@eden.com >Subject: Re: Birthday of the List > >At 11:17 AM 2/3/97 +0100, you wrote: >> >>Hi everyone, >> >>just for your information, this list exists for three years now and >>about one thousand individuals (ie. distinguished mail addresses / >>names) went through this place in cyberspace (ie. subscriptions). I >>have never thought that it would have such an intensive resonance in >>the Internet. But the Internet just grows and grows so more and more >>people get access to it. What strikes me over the years in observing >>the list is the sheer volume of messages being exchanged. I assume >>that its just too much for most of the subscribers so that they leave >>after a short time. It seems one needs a lot of time to follow all the >>threads or needs some training in filtering out the most interesting >>ones. Anyhow a lot is happening here I think which is quite >>interesting so watch out! >> >>Best wishes, >> >>Dirk >> >>PS. I plan to have a better WWW interface for the lists mail archive >>which will allow thread grouping. So one needn't to subscribe to the list >>to follow the threads. It will also be possible to send mails to the >>list without being subscribed from the pages in Berlin >>(ie. http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de:1895/). Please stay tuned, there will >>be a posting here when this feature is available. >> > >Dirk: > >Thanks for your foresight in setting up the maillist. Very few people really understand the still untapped potential of Internet -- we have not yet seen the full potential. I forsee thousands of msgs each day. Imagine someone trying to moderate it! Your setting up the maillist, again one more demonstration that an individual can make a difference and affect a number of people, and not organizations, as Krishnaji foresaw. > >MK Ramadoss > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 15:38:36 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [women selfish?] Message-ID: >Women are selfish if they do not give men whatever they want ("they" meaning men, not women). But if women restrict what they give it may be a service to man. It was because men wanted to become less ethereal that they "fell", and when Jupiter helped produce the 4th race and gave women to men the passions quickly became debased desire leading to all the problems of Atlantean magic and so forth. If women "train" men not to want them then they [men] may become less selfish in the long term leading to a new "golden age" through eventual self control. Granted, it may mean temporary pain for men but it would lead us upwards to liberation. I don't know where the women would go to though, possibly to Venus or perhaps to some other constellation like Sirius. So, if women do not give man what he wants she is being truly altuistic - assuming she understands why she is doing it! It still poses the vexed question of whether men *should* want anything at all of women.If men don't ask for something they want it will inflict pain on the emotional body and will simply impede but not prevent the inevitable -conflict between spirit and matter.If men don't ask anything of women then how will the seed for the next race come about? Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:43:36 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: LCC, (Co)Freemasonry & Suffrage Message-ID: <199702031747.MAA23522@newman.concentric.net> > From: M K Ramadoss > > Re: LCC and (Co)Freemasonry, it is rather odd that Co-Freemasonry was > supported by AB and TS because the Co-Freemasonry admit women while LCC does > not allow ordaining of Women. > > Couple of decades ago, I would not have been perceptive enough to look at > this anamoly in LCC and TS while working towards the first object, support > an organization which is discriminatory. All the spiritual explanations > might have satisfied those who did not think. > > Today, to most of us who are very sensitive to discrimination in any form or > fashion (either overly or covertly), LCC's policies are shocking. Those policies seem out of kilter with the times we are living in, in which the barriers for opportunity for men and women are slowly disappearing. But remember that women were not allowed to even vote until August 18, 1920, when the US Congress ratified Amendment XIX to the Bill of Rights. At that time, a church with women at the altar would have been so shocking that it would have hampered the establishment of the church. It was only in the later 70's that women were allowed to become servers and deaconesses in the LCC. It was explained to me by a priest that that was because they were running out of males in the minor orders to assist the priests. "All Chiefs, no Indians." -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:43:03 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: TS Elections - An Excerpt Message-ID: <199702031748.MAA23535@newman.concentric.net> > From: John Straughn > > They all eventually come back from the dead anyway. Five or six times. Maybe > AB will come back with amnesia or something. Then we'll find out that Wood > faked his death so that he could look for his lost lost cousin Bob. Then > HPB's evil twin sister will arrive, destory all of the hpb's and take over the > world. > > Or maybe not? Tune in next life. > --- > The Triaist > Cheers. (I'll think of something more serious to post eventually. Lately I > haven't had much time to think theophilosophologically. All that has been > floating around in my brain are federal regulations. I think I shall now go > gnaw my shoulder off.) Gnawing your shoulder does not sound vegetarian. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:14:08 -0500 (EST) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 881 Message-ID: <970203120810_41281950@emout15.mail.aol.com> I was interested to read the comments by Jerry S. It is refreshing to learn of Theosophists who are comfortable with science and the scientific method. HPB proclaimed a long time ago that "Theosophy is a religious science ... and a scien- tific religion." It has been my experience that most Theosophists pay at least lip service to the statement but far fewer are really comfortable with the idea. The fact is: real scientists search for the truth utilizing what is popularly referred to as "the scientific method" whereas real Theosophists do precisely the same thing using mental rather than physical means. The important fact is that both are willing to go wherever the search takes them. They strive always to maintain open-mindedness. For this reason they have no conflict about "ends", only perhaps about "means." But it may well be that ... "all paths DO lead to Rome." On a different subject, Einstein postulated that space is curved and he was, of course, referring to what we call physical space. I maintain that simple logic will demonstrate the correctness of his view ... IF the postulate is accepted that the source of our physical universe is what science has termed a "singularity." When that singularity commenced to expand some 12 - 15 billion years ago (by the best scientific estimates) it appears to have done so in all directions even though it has now been determined that the primordial "stuff" of which it was composed was not uniformly distributed in the same way. The point is that, if the singularity expanded in every direction, then two characteristics must apply: 1. The form of the newly created universe must be spherical. 2. The extent of this universe, even though it is still expanding, must be limited at any given instant of time. This is because the maxi- mum velocity of any matter in what has been termed the physical universe is C, i.e. the speed of light or 186,282 miles per second. Ergo, the maximum radius of our physical universe at, say, the 15-billion-year mark must be precisely l5,000,000,000 astronomical light years. Anybody out there who needs a more precise figure than this? I would appreciate hearing from any "Jerry S -minded" individuals who would care to explore this or other theosophical matters further with me. Fraternally Dennis DSARTHUR@AOL.com / ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:48:28 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS Elections - An Excerpt Message-ID: <970203133840_682753523@emout13.mail.aol.com> Ann, The TS became the PTL Club of its day. It's a good thing they didn't have water slides and theme parks back then or the gods alone know what Adyar might have looked like. On the other hand, I have derived some comfort from the belief that an organization that could survive such a collection of lunatics, scoundrels and sundry morons must have some great, intrinsic merit to keep it going. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:00:51 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: Purusha-Prakriti Message-ID: <32F635E3.6475@worldnet.att.net> RI: >It was not clear to me from the post whether Jerry was translating >~Purusha~ as "Spirit" or "Soul." Prakriti usually refers to objective matter-spirit, while Purusha usually refers to subjective Self or consciousness, or as you say, Soul. I would relate Prakriti to the Not-I and Purusha to the I of the I-Not-I Monad in its first stage (or plane) of manvantaric manifestation. Jerry S. Member, TI ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:09:38 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: Curved Space-Time Message-ID: <32F637F2.3F04@worldnet.att.net> Tom: >That time could be anything other than linear and that space could be >curved are ideas I do not grasp. The idea if linear time leads us to the doctrine of the Big Bang, which is now seen as a faulty model. Linear time requires an orgin or beginning, which is always troublesome (where did this beginning come from?). Hawking's No-Boundary Model is a scientific attempt to circumvent the problem, but so far has few champions in the scientific community. Einstein showed that if we travel in a straight line far enough, we will arrive at the same point where we started, thus all paths through space are curved. Curved space and curved time are the only things that make sense to me. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:19:24 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: Perceiving Reality Message-ID: <32F63A3C.36E0@worldnet.att.net> Tom: > If accurately perceiving objective reality is >not better than inaccurately perceiving it, what does anything >matter? My problem is your choice of the word "better." In some cases, such as in your example, you are doubtless right. But, we each see objective reality slightly different. Most accidents, for example, happen due to our temporary inattention to our surroundings. I am not sure what you mean by "what does anything matter" because surely we can have a meaningful and satisfying life while not seeing objective reality exactly as our neighbor sees it. Not only cultures, but families, see the world differently. I would be hard-pressed to say whose perception was the most accurate. And, I don't think it matters at all. Jerry S. Member, TI ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:28:10 -0500 From: Jerry Schueler Subject: Initiations Message-ID: <32F63C4A.7AA4@worldnet.att.net> Tom: >Charles Leadbeater, probably in "Masters and the Path," wrote about >how these beings compare to each other. He wrote of 10 possible >initiations, that he knew of, that an individual could attain. He >wrote that an Arhat is one who had passed the 4th initiation, an Adept >is one who had passed the 5th initiation, a Chohan is one who had >passed the 6th initiation, a Manu, Bodhisattva, or a Mahachohan is one >who had passed the 7th initiation, a Pratyeka Buddha or a Buddha is >one who had passed the 8th initiation, a Lord of the World is one who >had passed the 9th initiation, and a Silent Watcher is one who had >passed the 10th initiation. This is an interesting idea, but the notion of the Pratyeka- Buddha being above the Bodhisattva would cause laughter from Tibetan Buddhists. Of course, the real problem with this kind of thing is that who can say who has had a "5th" initiation or whatever? Thus CWL opened up a great opportunity for self-professed gurus. Jerry S. Member, TI ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:51:45 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Compensation at Olcott/Wheaton Message-ID: <970203135654_1014470408@emout06.mail.aol.com> Doss, The pay at Olcott is not good by any measure. Some years ago I went out with a woman who worked there and her pay was extremely small. Even the National President receives a very small salary when compared to the duties of the position, which is why every president has had a source of outside income. There was a time, about 40 years ago, when the Olcott Staff was not really paid at all but was expected to have a source of money independent of the society. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 11:52:31 -0800 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Re: Size of the universe Message-ID: <199702031953.LAA37502@scv2.apple.com> >The extent of this universe, even though it is still expanding, must be >limited at any given instant of time. This is because the maximum >velocity of any matter in what has been termed the physical universe is C, >i.e. the speed of light or 186,282 miles per second. Ergo, the maximum >radius of our physical universe at, say, the 15-billion-year mark must be >precisely l5,000,000,000 astronomical light years. Actually this is not what current theories of the universe say. During the inflationary period the expansion is so rapid that certain parts of the universe become luminally discontiguous -- that is, the distance between them is sufficiently great that no light could ever have traveled from one region to the other given the lifetime of the universe. Since this separation is caused by the expansion of space, it is not disallowed under Einstein's theory. My source for this is books by the late Heinz Pagels, a well-regarded physicist and science writer, and articles in Scientific American over the last few years. Tim Maroney ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:18:39 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: <970203134910_1380181373@emout13.mail.aol.com> Alan, There was documentation at the time of the mess in the form of letters between Bing and the National President and/or the Board of Directors. Where those letters are and if they still exist is something I have no way of knowing. Bing is a man who evokes strong emotions, pro and con. I will only say that neither side in the affair was wholy innocent of shenanigans and I have long since washed my hands of it. I was a Bing supporter and while I was not personally burned in any way except my pride by this whole thing, having experienced TS politics first hand has cured me of any further interest in it and made me convinced that anyone who wants to be president of the US section probably needs serious counseling. The 1990 election nearly split the American section, nearly killed Dorothy Abbenhouse and drove Bing to the brink of insanity. It is an episode that one remembers with a certain bitterness. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:01:04 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS Elections - An Excerpt Message-ID: <970203142411_1961441447@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-03 12:51:42 EST, you write: >> The Triaist >> Cheers. (I'll think of something more serious to post eventually. Lately >I >> haven't had much time to think theophilosophologically. All that has been >> floating around in my brain are federal regulations. I think I shall now go > >> gnaw my shoulder off.) > >Gnawing your shoulder does not sound vegetarian. > >-AEB > > Nor comfortable. Better to knaw off the shoulder of somebody else, preferably with mustard. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:07:26 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The Big Three Message-ID: <970203141835_1794439969@emout20.mail.aol.com> Ann, In a message dated 97-02-03 08:25:34 EST, you write: >My take on the big three (LCC,TS/ES, Co-M) at this time is that that they >were vehicles to >push people's evolution - legit tools. Perhaps the people involved in these >organizations began to lose sight of the evolution part and become much more >intrigued with the organizational part, especially if they could rise to some >powerful position. > One can make the case that just about anything can be a tool for evolution, depending upon how people experience it. The question is how they were used in the context of th TS. >I also surmise that the reason that those belonging to all three, especially >the ES, >were candidates for positions of power because they had gone through >the evolutionary process and were either initiates or on their way to >becoming initiates. The idea of having organizations headed by people who >were supposed to be spiritually ahead must have been desirable. But did >it always work? I think even initiates can fail. > My feeling is that if the people running the TS at that time were inititates then the system is really in serious trouble and the lords of karma should be fired. Looking at them and their behavior the immediate question becomes "Initiates into what? The Ancient and Royal Order of Congenital Loonies?" These people are not to be taken seriously except as a cautionary example. >For myself, the LCC was very influential in pushing my evolution and the >TS part is more important to me now. How will the big three fare in the >future? Will there be new ways of pushing people's evolution and getting >them initiated? > >As Dr. Who said, "Time will tell, it always does." > >-AEB > When it comes spiritual matters, as in everything else, I am a firm believer in the law of nature that says "whatever works is right." The LCC is not my glass of beer for lots of reasons, but if it works for you, then good for it. Just like Gerda and her masonry, which you couldn't pay me to join. By the same token, I don't expect everyone to be enthused about what I do. We each find our own way around these things and gravitate to that which suits us. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:41:01 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Compensation at Olcott/Wheaton Message-ID: Chuck: I had a gut feeling about what you have stated. Even the International President Radha Burnier has never taken any salary and worked for free all her life. This issue resurfaced in connection with the comment made in relation to Bing's *severance* pay and he being one of the *highest* paid (I am quoting from memory). There is a very interesting comment in the Candles in the Sun, that up until Miss. Dodge started funding all sorts of projects, all work was done by volunteers. According to E Lutyens, this was a bad move. Now we have Kern Foundation which look's like reincarnation of Miss. Dodge's philanthropy. ..doss On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > The pay at Olcott is not good by any measure. Some years ago I went out with > a woman who worked there and her pay was extremely small. Even the National > President receives a very small salary when compared to the duties of the > position, which is why every president has had a source of outside income. > > There was a time, about 40 years ago, when the Olcott Staff was not really > paid at all but was expected to have a source of money independent of the > society. > > Chuck the Heretic > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 19:13:12 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Mathematicians Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970204011312.006ac408@mail.eden.com> Here is some thing to think about; (I picked up in another maillist) My new/old equation is thus. truth x awareness x action x relationship ----------------------------------------- = conflict ego ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:32:16 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: TS Elections - An Excerpt Message-ID: <24KbdDAQOo9yEwdN@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199702022333.SAA12431@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes >Essentially, Wood was saying that TS had turned into a soap opera. > >-AEB Which it remained. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:52:04 -0000 From: Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB Subject: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <01BC1246.89F55A60@rvik-ppp-116.ismennt.is> Doss wrote: Chuck: I had a gut feeling about what you have stated. Even the International President Radha Burnier has never taken any salary and worked for free all her life. Einar here: I am not familiar with the salaries in the TS around the world, but I have the feeling that it hardly exceeds the bare living necessities and are often none at all. In Iceland the only paid post is the editor/manager of our Magazine, who delivers it "ready for printing" to the printing house. He gets about three months pay for a lot of professional work (200 pages pr. year plus accounting and distribution). Every post in the society is voluntary work, and expenses rarely paid unless they amount to an considerable amount. The most generous to the society are maybe those ladies (and of late quite a number of gents too), that bring coffee and cakes to our "party" on Friday nights, and pay their $ 5.00 price for the coffee to our "coffee-fund", even though they didn't have time to consume any, busy as they are, serving others. This has also made it possible to have no admittance fee to any of our activities, which are extensive in deed (something every day of the week). It's my experience that TS workers are not at all enviable of their Work, at least not money-vise, and by reading the posts on this list, their work doesn't seem much appreciated otherwise either. Of course there are human problems inside the TS. In the management of any society there are always traces of revelry, envy, jealousy, etc. and it seems to be an "universal law" that those that never won't do anything but talk, always know best how NOT to do things! Finally a small well-meant advise. If you are so unhappy about your position within the theosophical movement, as some of you seem to be, pick yourself a position or a field of work, and make that however small field an example for others to see. If you are really good at it, you will eventually end up being a "lamp unto others". But don't go about it by digging shit and throwing it on others, because then you will never get out of the mud-pool yourself. Think about it! Love and light Einar From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 23:05:29 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Beneath Bing Message-ID: <32F6B589.6851@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > If you care to name the person who gave you that load of kaka relative > Bing's expulsion, I'd peronally request confirmation in writing. Ed Abdill. > Further, the offer he acknowledges was one of menial labor. What is "menial labor"? > No position > that would use his talents was offered him. That from Bing's own mouth. I believe that he said it. I believe that he believed it to be the truth. > Bart, I'm still waiting for substantiation of your last statement > concerning the availability of BOD minutes. The documents are in the New York Lodge's minutes. I am not legally allowed to divulge the contents of the minutes. If you wish to join the New York Lodge, and wish to come up here, then you will be allowed to see the minutes. Otherwise, you may request a copy of the minutes of the sessions in question from Wheaton. If the Board of Directors of your own Lodge chose not to put the correspondence in their own minutes, that is not my fault. Bart Lidofsky P.S. Where were YOU on the night that Nicole Simpson was murdered? Can you prove it? ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 23:08:06 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: <32F6B626.A62@sprynet.com> Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > > In message <32F4BB7A.5E28@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky > writes > >> While I trust the info is correct, as the Russian Proverb says, "Trust > >> but verify". Hence I would like to see documented evidence. > > > > Ask someone who was on the Board of Directors at the time, like I did. > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > With respect, *asking* someone what happens may or may not provide > documentary evidence, assuming such evidence exists. Doss is simply > asking for documentary backup for your information, and does not suggest > that it is untrue. Respect acknowledged. Those who were on the Board at the time should have the documentation as well, and should be able to show it to you (or Doss). However, I do not see any documentation supporting any of the accusations I have been hearing, either. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:26:57 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: TS Elections - An Excerpt Message-ID: <199702040426.UAA01021@proxy1.ba.best.com> Ann: >> The Triaist: >> Cheers. (I'll think of something more serious to post eventually. Lately I >> haven't had much time to think theophilosophologically. All that has been >> floating around in my brain are federal regulations. I think I shall now go >> gnaw my shoulder off.) >Gnawing your shoulder does not sound vegetarian. Ann, he's a carrot. Is a carrot eating a carrot still cannibalism? BTW, I wonder what a hairless purple bunny tastes like. Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:26:32 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Q's and ponderences Message-ID: <199702040426.UAA00765@proxy1.ba.best.com> Ben: >Thirdly, I've been wondering about the future sixth root race, our >sex relations, and how the new impulse is likely to come about. My theory of the sixth root race is that men will develop ovaries, impregnate themselves, have babies and raise them, while us women enjoy our massages at the Venus resort. As far as sex relations, a bunch of tiny little cup cakes with whipped cream on top always helps, and whipped cream can do wonders for the impulses. Sigh, us poor women are always blamed for the feebleness of men. From Eve and the apple to the theory of these godlike men degrading their kinds during the Fourth Race by marrying these Liliths who are lower beings. Then we all become obsessed with materialism and sex, lose our intellectual and occult abilities, and our powerful third eye became useless pineal glands. Good news, though. According to the SD, this natural evolution did not cause the fall of man. It's man's misusage of their newly developed physical and senses, since the Spirit element was still dominant during the Atlantean days. Of course, as in the case of Adam and Eve, the ole male God was actually the one in error since he did not leave Adam of one sex. Hey, don't blame Eve and don't blame that Serpent. According to HPB, the future sixth root race will slowly emerge from the intermixing of races, principally in America, the melting pot. This new race will overlap and eventually succeed the fifth sub-race, then on to seventh sub-race, until the sixth root race appears. With that, a new race and new nations will appear. This will be a positive progression in which the sixth root race will outgrow the need for the physical and the material. >It has >always been my opinion that enforced asceticism is a negative thing, it >implies IMO imbalance of our functions. But just last night I've read in the >SD that one of the Chohans stated, in different words, that their disciples >should have no physical relations, because they would fall into the >death/rebirth cycle, and that later they would would be the seeds of the next >race. My ideas towards asceticism is possibly changing because of this. I >might be incorrect in this but it was what I was led to believe. I wondered >whether the ladies on the list who have such strong views towards men would >care to comment? I don't REALLY have strong views regarding men, but I will comment. I don't believe in ascetism, myself. If the point is to develop spiritually, and spirituality depends largely on altruism, then it really does little good to deny the physical. The physical is where we do all of our work. If you're into ascetism, that's fine. But why force it? There's too much to do without having to worry about enlightenment. Enlightenment and altruistic work goes together, anyway. As far as I have seen of SD's theory about the death/rebirth cycle leading into the next race, that's all supposed to be the normal cycle leading into a superior race. >Are they being used as vehicles for this future race or are >they simply being vain. I realise that prostituting their vehicles for the >male personality defects would be considered wrong, but why are they so >negative towards men? Negative? Moi? We are spiritual beings helping to enlighten these poor misguided souls. Temples should be raised in honor of us. Prostituting our vehicles for the male personality defects? Are you planning to channel into our bodies? We're not vain. We are ensuring that our eggs are saved for the perfect sperm that will yield a highly evolved, compassionate being who looks at all life with respect and love. Of course, there's no question that our eggs contain that half of a perfect being. Perfection begats perfection. >It would not IMO be true to say that power in itself >equates to imbalance only potential difference which is why I wonder why >some women try to attain more of it. What is power, but perhaps life-force. >If it is could it mean that men with greater "life-force potential" try to >follow the path of least resistance. If this is the case are women selfish >if they try to restrain the flow of force? If this is the case what does >this mean for the race impulses? I don't know! Any ideas? We are not trying to restrain any life force, not any more than any man trying to restrain our life forces. We are discouraging any misusage of it. Besides, you all do what you want, anyway. You give us too much power. The power is yourself. >But if women restrict what they give it may be a service to man. It was >because men wanted to become less ethereal that they "fell", and when Jupiter >helped produce the 4th race and gave women to men the passions quickly >became debased desire leading to all the problems of Atlantean magic and so >forth. If women "train" men not to want them then they [men] may become less >selfish in the long term leading to a new "golden age" through eventual self >control. Granted, it may mean temporary pain for men but it would lead us >upwards to liberation. I don't know where the women would go to though, >possibly to Venus or perhaps to some other constellation like Sirius. So...if a woman is being raped, she should just say, "Bad man, bad man. Take time out. I am not trying to stop this rape. I am freeing you for the golden age!" >Granted, it may mean temporary pain for men but it would lead us >upwards to liberation. A few well placed kick, "phoenix hand" poking, and "pulling the net" grabbing should help you toward liberation. If any man needs liberation, I know some martial arts move. >I don't know where the women would go to though, >possibly to Venus or perhaps to some other constellation like Sirius. We're opening a resort on Venus. >It still poses the vexed question of whether men *should* want anything at >all of women.If men don't ask for something they want it will inflict pain >on the emotional body and will simply impede but not prevent the >inevitable -conflict between spirit and matter.If men don't ask anything of >women then how will the seed for the next race come about? You can ask, but you may not get. As far as the seed for the next race, look at my theory on men developing ovaries. Yawn...this verbal sparring is getting boring. I say us women meet the misguided men physically, and have a go at it. I have to warn you, if you run away in the middle of a fight, I will have to chase after you. Chances are, unless you are also a runner, I will catch you. When I engage a bull, I always finish the job by thrusting the sword into his heart. Afterward, I boil him, slice him, dot him with butter, and top him with a sprig of mint. No, actually, that's Ann's recipe for sexist men who turned into carrots. Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:47:16 -0700 (MST) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: [women selfish?] Message-ID: <199702040647.XAA13520@snowden.micron.net> Ben wrote: >If women "train" men not to want them then they [men] may become less >selfish in the long term leading to a new "golden age" through eventual self >control. Granted, it may mean temporary pain for men but it would lead us >upwards to liberation. Women are not responsible for men's "liberation" and vice versa. We must all "train" ourselves. In the Middle East, women are required to wear chador (full covering) in order not to "tempt" men and cause their "downfall." The result of this thinking and practice has caused great suffering for women - and made men appear weak of soul and devoid of any self-control. It has also failed to lead to the new "golden age" you speak of. >If men don't ask anything of >women then how will the seed for the next race come about? Indeed! So they better ask nicely. Kym ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:47:57 -0700 (MST) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: [Q's and ponderences] - to Ben Message-ID: <199702040647.XAA13566@snowden.micron.net> Ben wrote: >I wondered >whether the ladies on the list who have such strong views towards men would >care to comment? I suspect I may qualify as one of the "ladies" you spoke of; however, I need a bit of clarification on some questions and comments included in your post. >Are they being used as vehicles for this future race or are >they simply being vain. Are you asking if women feel that they are being exploited when it comes to having children? What do you mean when you say "are they simply being vain?" >I realise that prostituting their vehicles for the >male personality defects would be considered wrong, but why are they so >negative towards men? What or who are "the male personality defects?" Women are not negative towards men, they are simply trying to eliminate the negative actions/behaviors of a male-dominated society. Women (and men) who fight for equality have been accused of being negative toward both men and women. >It would not IMO be true to say that power in itself >equates to imbalance only potential difference which is why I wonder why >some women try to attain more of it. What is power, but perhaps life-force. >If it is could it mean that men with greater "life-force potential" try to >follow the path of least resistance. If this is the case are women selfish >if they try to restrain the flow of force? You're wondering why women want to attain more "power" or "life-force?" What is the "path of least resistance?" What do you mean "try to restrain the flow of force?" Kym ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue Feb 4 07:46:50 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: Reality (to Tom) Message-ID: <199702041246.HAA24821@envirolink.org> Tom Robertson writes: >In the footnote on page 10 of volume 1 of "The Secret Doctrine," HPB >wrote, regarding Mulaprakriti, which she called "the unmanifested >primordial matter," that "it is undifferentiated and eternal." > >I have always wondered why she wrote, on page 15, that Spirit and >Matter are two aspects of the Absolute (Parabrahm), and then on page >18, she wrote that Parabrahmam and Mulaprakriti are the two aspects of >the One Principle. Did she differentiate between Parabrahm and >Parabrahmam, or between the Absolute and the One Principle? As I understand it, the Absolute is not actually THE absolute. There are many of them, each serving as the head of a heirarchy. They are the Wonderous Beings, etc etc. The One Principle is the ineffable, eternal (truly eternal, not manvantarically) principle from which ALL things which exist spring. --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:53:38 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Beneath Bing Message-ID: <32F73152.73CD@gil.net> Ken Malkin wrote: > If you care to name the person who gave you that load of kaka relative > Bing's expulsion, I'd peronally request confirmation in writing. Ed Abdill. > Further, the offer he acknowledges was one of menial labor. What is "menial labor"? > No position that would use his talents was offered him. That from Bing's own >mouth. I believe that he said it. I believe that he believed it to be the truth. >Bart, I'm still waiting for substantiation of your last statement> concerning >the availability of BOD minutes. The documents are in the New York Lodge's minutes. I am not legally allowed to divulge the contents of the minutes. If you wish to join the New York Lodge, and wish to come up here, then you will be allowed to see the minutes. Otherwise, you may request a copy of the minutes of the sessions in question from Wheaton. If the Board of Directors of your own Lodge chose not to put the correspondence in their own minutes, that is not my fault. Bart Lidofsky P.S. Where were YOU on the night that Nicole Simpson was murdered? Can you prove it? Hiya Bart, Please forward the address of your member Ed Abdill. I will make the same request to him that I have made to J. Algeo (still unanswered) for a copy of the "Minutes" you claim to have seen. Why do you entreat the meaning of "menial labor" and ignore the true question in the post? For your information, menial labor is that which is afield of a man’s qualifications and previous achievements. Your source at Wheaton may make your privy to the written proof of their actual severance package to Bing. Your kind offer included, no, I do not wish to move back to New York City. I fail to understand though your hiding behind a thinly crafted legal veil. If the minutes are available as you state, what is your legal problem with just quoting them? My gosh, am I to be considered an outsider when I request something of a fellow traveler on the same path? Bart, there is no record of any national board meetings in the archives of the Miami lodge. I was a member of the Board of the Miami lodge, serving in many capacities, for twelve years, from 1984 to 1996. Wheaton has never sent its minutes. If there is another lodge, sand legal problems, that will send a copy of those minutes received from Wheaton it would be an event that would herald a new era. Wheaton has not done it, they do not do it and they will never tell the members more than Wheaton wants. The bottom of your post was a snippet from what I expect was another E-mail. It was so far afield of the discussion I am sure you would have no reason to ask. OK, as always I look forward to hearing from you soon and often, My Peace Profound and other good things, Ken Malkin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:06:00 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Fw: [women selfish?] Message-ID: <199702041324.IAA00277@newman.concentric.net> The following is a forwarded post to the list, written by my husband. ---------- > From: Bermingham Charles E > Subject: RE: [women selfish?] > Date: Monday, February 03, 1997 2:21 PM > > Here's my reply (if you want to post it.) > > Excuse me, gentlemen, but I have to reply to this. I'm not on the > mailing list, due to being busy, but I just wanted to say something > about this topic you are on right now. I think you're missing the mark. > > Women are poeple, just like men. Deal with it. Once you've done that, > you might find your relationships with women improving. > > I'll give you an example. There is a survey that was given to women, > asking them which "pick-up line" was most effective in their initial > relationships with men. Of all the lines that they were given, the one > that was most effective and respected was: > > "Hello." > > followed closely by: > > "Hello. May I intruduce myself?" etc. > > Notice that "May I buy you a drink?" and "What's your sign?" weren't > there? Actually, "I'm having a drink--would you like one too?" was more > appreciated, and NOT at the beginning of the conversation. Why? > > It took me a few years to figure this out myself, but it's simple: women > want basically the same things as men. You may find this hard to > believe, but it's generally true. There are some *details* that are > different, such as women being more *interested* in relationships than > men, and the fact that women have to bear the thildren, but basically, > if you understand yourself, you're about 90 percent of the way to > understanding women. Remember: most of your bodily cells are darn near > exactly the same as those of your female counterpart. There is only one > chromosome that's different, out of 46 or so. And even the differences > apply more on a case-by-case basis than you might think. Many men who > are regarded as "effeminate" make the best partners, sexually and > otherwise. Why? Because they *take* *an* *interest.* > > Do you feel that women don't appreciate you? Remember, appreciation is > a two-way street. > > Also, you can't "get" a woman. The harder you try to "get" one, the > less she's going to want to be around you. Would you like someone to > "get" you? What makes you think they are any different? Believe me, > sexual (and other) relations work out a hell of a lot better once you > give that up. > > And I ain't talking about Jupiter or Venus or mythology or anything. > I'm talking about *understanding*!!! > > Another way to put it is from a friend of mine. I once asked him what > it would take for me to get along with women. He said: "Take them down > off that pedestal, and be friends with them. They're not prizes in a > game." > > It's a big step, but believe me, it's a major one. And it works. > > >---------- > >From: Ann E. Bermingham[SMTP:safron@concentric.net] > >Sent: Monday, February 03, 1997 11:52 AM > >Subject: Fw: [women selfish?] > >---------- > >> From: Benjamin Mark Pybus > >> Subject: Re: [women selfish?] > >> Date: Monday, February 03, 1997 9:41 AM > >> > >>>Tom Robertson: > >> >Women are selfish if they do not give men whatever they want ("they" > >> meaning men, not women). > >> > >> But if women restrict what they give it may be a service to man. It was > >> because men wanted to become less ethereal that they "fell", and when > >>Jupiter > >> helped produce the 4th race and gave women to men the passions quickly > >> became debased desire leading to all the problems of Atlantean magic and so > >> forth. If women "train" men not to want them then they [men] may > >>become less > >> selfish in the long term leading to a new "golden age" through > >>eventual self > >> control. Granted, it may mean temporary pain for men but it would lead us > >> upwards to liberation. I don't know where the women would go to though, > >> possibly to Venus or perhaps to some other constellation like Sirius. > >> > >> So, if women do not give man what he wants she is being truly altuistic - > >> assuming she understands why she is doing it! > >> > >> It still poses the vexed question of whether men *should* want anything at > >> all of women.If men don't ask for something they want it will inflict pain > >> on the emotional body and will simply impede but not prevent the > >> inevitable -conflict between spirit and matter.If men don't ask anything of > >> women then how will the seed for the next race come about? > >> > >> Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:12:01 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: TS & Education Message-ID: <199702041324.IAA00291@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > In this year (1916) he (CWL)entered the Liberal Catholic Church, was > consecrated a Bishop by the Rt. Rev. J. 1. Wedgwood, and made Regionary > Bishop of Australia, 22 July. He intimated that an exalted member of the > Occult Hierarchy had recommended that there were three ways in which the > members of The Society should show how things should be done: > > 1. In Education; to show what schools should be in the hands of those > working selflessly for the children they love > Thanks, Doss for posting this whole article - I found it very enlightening. I'm aware that TS has a school at Adyar. Does anyone know of any other educational efforts - past or present? BTW, it occurred to me today that much of this discussion should really be on theos-roots as it deals with the history of TS. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:27:54 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: The LCC Message-ID: <199702041324.IAA00304@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins > > AEB > >They also better be well off, as the clergy robes at > >the LCC have to be tailored to CWL's specs (unless you have a > >wife who is handy at sewing - but there's still the material. > >Linen is $10-15 a yard.) And in the Co-M, you pay more the > >higher you climb through the lodges. Is there a fee for ES? > > JHE > That is where the women come in. We had a woman in Los Angeles > who sewed all of the robes. She did a beautiful job too--they > looked real professional. No fee for the ES, but you are > expected to be active in a TS Lodge if possible. > >I've done my time at the sewing machine as well. A set of vestments I did back in 1971 is still in use. But it does take a lot of time, of which most people are short of nowadays. Unless a man has a wife or girlfriend that knows how to sew, he has to go to a religious store that makes the vestments to CWL's specifications and pay for a professional seamtress. CWL wrote that he thought all the vestments and altar linens should be sewn by the ladies of the church, who would sing devotional hymns while they worked, weaving in the high vibrations as they went along. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 09:26:14 -0800 From: Tim Maroney Subject: Fwd: Re: HPB & Lucifer Message-ID: <199702041727.JAA50690@scv3.apple.com> > Subject: Re: HPB & Lucifer > From: Tim Maroney, maroney@apple.com [snipped: private quote insisting that HPB used "Lucifer" solely as a synonym for "light", not as any reference to the figure of Christian mythology; this was in connection with a recent article in the Theosophical magazine "Sunrise" which "explained" why Blavatsky used the title "Lucifer" for her magazine....] If you were to track references to "Lucifer" throughout the second volume of the "Secret Doctrine", using the index, you would see that Blavatsky very consistently applies a Promethean model to the legendary figure, often complaining of his demonization by the church, which she hated, and adopting the view that Jehovah was actually Ialdabaoth, the wretched pseudo-God of the Gnostics. One typical passage appears on page 243: "The Beings, or the Being, collectively called Elohim, who first (if ever) pronounced the cruel words, 'Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live for ever...' must have been indeed that Ilda-baoth, the Demiurge of the Nazarenes, filled with rage and envy against his own creature, whose reflection created Ophiomorphos. In this case it is but natural -- even from the dead letter standpoint -- to view Satan, the Serpent of Genesis, as the real creator and benefactor, the Father of Spiritual mankind. For it is he who was the 'Harbinger of Light', bright radiant Lucifer, who opened the eyes of the automaton created by Jehovah, as alleged; and he who was the first to whisper: 'in the day ye eat thereof ye shall be as Elohim, knowing good and evil' -- can only be personated in the light of a Saviour. An 'adversary' to Jehovah the 'personating spirit', he still remains in esoteric truth the ever-loving 'Messenger' (the angel)...." The text goes on about the rage, envy, and jealousy of Ilda-baoth, continuing the allegory between Jehovah, Ilda-baoth, and Zeus on one hand, and Satan, Lucifer, and Prometheus on the other, condemning the former and praising the latter for a total of six pages. As mentioned, this is not an isolated passage, but can easily be corroborated by following other references to Lucifer and Satan in the index. In fact, Blavatsky's use of Lucifer is explicitly "Satanic": "'Theosophy teaches that separation from the Primal Source having once occurred, Re-union can only be achieved by Will -- Effort -- which is distinctly Satanic in the sense of this essay.' It is 'Satanic' from the standpoint of orthodox Romanism, for it is owing to the prototype of that which became in time the Christian Devil -- to the Radiant Archangels, Dhyan-Chohans, who refused to create, because they wanted Man to become his own creator and an immortal god -- that men can reach Nirvana and the haven of heavenly divine peace." (p. 246) Interestingly, there is a close parallel in Blavatsky to the passage denying the reality of the Devil that Bill Heidrick is so fond of quoting in Crowley. Crowley and Blavatsky deny the existence of the devil as a Chistian invention in the similar language, Blavatsky on page 209 of "The Secret Doctrine", volume II, Crowley in chapter XXI of "Magick in Theory and Practice". Both of them are echoing the standard Spiritualist doctrine of the nonexistence of evil, which also became a pillar of Thelemic thought; both then go on to express a Luciferian/Promethean doctrine, Blavatsky in a long following section praising the Ophitic symbols of the serpent and the dragon, falsely condemned as evil and explicitly related by her to the Serpent of Genesis; Crowley in a long footnote on the same page expressing the Levi-Blavatsky doctrine of Lucifer or Satan as redeemer and the Serpent of Genesis as enlightener of mankind, using language apparently taken directly from "The History of Magic" by Levi. That either of these passages could be taken out of context as expressing a general disdain for Satanic symbolism is unfortunately not surprising. The lengths to which people will go to deny the Satanic interests of their spiritual forebears is a source of constant wonder. Probably the worst excesses are committed by modern witches struggling to find some way in which the Lucifer of "Aradia" is actually not related to the Christian Lucifer, even though he is referred to as "most evil of all spirits, who of old once reigned in hell when driven away from heaven". Albert Pike in "Morals and Dogma" twice cites (actually, lifts from) Levi a redeemed doctrine of Lucifer, using the same passage later used by Crowley. I have had Freemasons deny to me that these passages even exist, even when I give page numbers and quote them in full. They rarely even try to rationalize them away, but simply repeat zombie-like that all attributions of Satanic interests to Pike are the results of the Taxil fraud. Thelemites cite Crowley's one passage denying the existence of the Christian devil but ignore the passage on the same page expressing that Satan or Lucifer is Crowley's own Holy Guardian Angel, and deny that the Great Beast and the Scarlet Woman of Revelation are Satanic symbols even though the text of Revelation is uncharacteristically clear on this point. If pushed, some will retreat to a bizarre position in which Crowley was using not the known text of Revelation, but an unknown and lost precursor in which the Beast and Scarlet Woman were not Satanic -- this even though Crowley himself directly affirms the Revelation symbolism, as when in his Ritual of Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel he refers to the Beast as the servant of Satan. And now, in the recent "Sunrise" article as well as here on Arcana, we see the same kind of willful refusal to engage the evidence about Blavatsky. The classical meaning of "Lucifer" as "light-bringer" is cited in isolation from Blavatsky's own statements about the symbol, which she herself calls "Satanic" and expresses in terms of a moral inversion of Christian myth. The techniques of denial employed in all these cases are similar, and the conclusions are equally mistaken in each case, due to the evidence being ignored or ineffectually rationalized away. Tim Maroney From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:09:48 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TS & Education Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970204140948.006adca8@mail.eden.com> At 08:26 AM 2/4/97 -0500, AEB wrote: > >I'm aware that TS has a school at Adyar. Does anyone know of any other The school, as far as I know, is outside the TS Campus at Adyar. May be some one who has visited Adyar recently may be able to confirm or correct. ..MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:34:45 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Q's and ponderences Message-ID: <199702041631.LAA00105@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Thoa Tran > > Yawn...this verbal sparring is getting boring. I say us women meet the > misguided men physically, and have a go at it. I have to warn you, if you > run away in the middle of a fight, I will have to chase after you. Chances > are, unless you are also a runner, I will catch you. When I engage a bull, > I always finish the job by thrusting the sword into his heart. Afterward, I > boil him, slice him, dot him with butter, and top him with a sprig of mint. > No, actually, that's Ann's recipe for sexist men who turned into carrots. > Xena rules! Thank you, Sam Raimi, for Saturday afternoons with the warrior princess. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:29:28 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Universal Expansion Message-ID: <19970204184820.AAA154@JerrySchueler> Tim: >During the inflationary period the expansion is so rapid that certain parts of >the universe become luminally discontiguous -- that is, the distance >between them is sufficiently great that no light could ever have traveled >from one region to the other given the lifetime of the universe. Since >this separation is caused by the expansion of space, it is not disallowed >under Einstein's theory. You are correct Tim. You have nicely summarized the revised Big Bang Model. This revision was necessary to account for the wild discontinuities that we see in Space (Hubble telescope, etc). The expansion of our universe is now known to NOT be homogeneous which implies the Chaos Factor existed right from the very beginning. Jerry S. Member, TI ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 19:51:28 +0100 From: Michael Subject: Sense in nature Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970204185128.0068b714@xs4all.nl> > Otherwise, palingenesis becomes a senseless round of >experience going nowhere. > >LunarPitri > >------------------------------ Michael Amsterdam, Netherlands http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/index.html ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:16:19 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Reality (to Tom) Message-ID: <970204121304_1579972344@emout03.mail.aol.com> Richard Ihle writes--> Purusha exists apart [from Prakriti], of course. Tom Robertson writes--> I was of the impression that, just like dozens of other pairs of opposites I could list, spirit cannot exist without matter. RI--> Since my last post, I found several more instances where HPB seems to translate ~Purusha~/~Prakriti as "~Spirit~/~Matter~." I continue to regard this as an error, certainly from the "psychogenetic" viewpoint and very probably from Kapila's famous usage of the terms as well. The bigger problem is probably the use of the term "matter" for ~Prakriti~. After many years of reflection about this, I have come to believe that "Substance" would be a better equivalent, since virtually ~everything~ except Undifferentiated Consciousness (Atman, Self, Soul) seems to get included. Even prana, inner pictures, thoughts, etc. are often considered manifestations/evolutes of Universal Substance. Despite a sometimes confusing way of presenting the material, I do believe HPB was on-track in her basic understanding, however. For example, on p.135 in COLLECTED WRITINGS she predicted that modern science was "on the eve of discovering that consciousness is universal." This seems to me that she also understood that Undifferentiated Consciousness is an all-pervading, pre-existing "Raw Immaterial" (just as Prakriti is the Raw Material). Most of science, I am afraid, is still of the opinion that consciousness is "created" somewhere along track of material evolution. I am not certain what you mean by "spirit cannot exist without matter [because they are an example of pair of opposites]." While probably true from one stance, it is more complicated from another. I once tried, not too sucessfully, to describe Substance as a "circular-interpenetrating-continuum of the Spiritual-pranic-physical-emotional-mental-Spiritual-pranic-physical-emotional -mental-Spiritual. . . ." And I blame HPB for being confusing? Anyway, notice the shift here from the cosmological to the human view of things. With the basic pranic-physical (energy-matter) building blocks, simple material/biological evolution then produces some of the latter manifestations of Substance by which the Self is "contaminated" (egoically deluded) and thus, by comparison, learns more of Its Own Nature. And some people on this list still regard Ken Wilber as the most abstruse bore of the New Age? Godspeed, Richard Ihle ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:46:27 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The LCC Message-ID: <970204141037_1447449604@emout05.mail.aol.com> Ann In a message dated 97-02-04 09:11:21 EST, you write: > >CWL wrote that he thought all the vestments and altar linens >should be sewn by the ladies of the church, who would sing >devotional hymns while they worked, weaving in the high >vibrations as they went along. > > Well, leaving the victorianism "high vibrations" aside, the Bishop had a point on that one. A few years back I saw the ikon exhibit at the Art Institute and the energy coming from them thar' things nearly blew me out of the room. It seems that as they were sewn, the makers had a prayer for each stitch and the power of that process is still imedded in the completed work. But then Leadbeater also wrote a short article on talismanic magick in one of the old Theosophist issues that is still one of the best I've ever read. I'll have to dig it out again someday. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 17:22:15 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Wood's Book (V) 1 of 2 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970204232215.006a189c@mail.eden.com> Here is some more of excerpts from Wood's book "Is This Theosophy?". ================================== ANTIPODAL EXPERIENCE We were in California again in the spring of 1924. There we met Mr. A. P. Warrington former President of the American Section of the Theosophical Society and still a prominent figure in the movement. He had recently been to Australia and was filled with enthusiasm for Mr. Leadbeater's work there. He told my wife that Mr. Leadbeater had been asking about me and wishing that I would come there, and saying what a great opportunity there was for me to make rapid occult advancement-"three initiations at least." He and she both wanted me to go. I hesitated for a long time, because of my lack of confidence in Mr. Leadbeater's clairvoyance in connection with the past lives of Krishnamurti, and also because my personal affection for the old gentleman might cause me to get caught again (as I put it to myself) in the work of book-making for him. However, Mr. Warrington was very impressive on the point and I at last yielded, fulfilled an engagement to lecture for the British Section of the Society, returned again to America to complete engagements there, and sailed from San Francisco for Sydney in October, 1924. In this and other trips across the Pacific Ocean my wife and I had opportunities to see several of the Pacific Islands. The Cook Islands, with Avarua on Rarotonga as capital, are boldly beautiful. Papeete, on Tahiti, chief of the Society Isles, has less rocky and more floral charm. Pango Pango on Tutuila, of the Samoan or Navigator Islands, is superb- mountains and the sea at their best in a lovely land-locked harbour. The Samoans are said to be the tallest race in the world. Those at Pango Pango seemed more accessible than most of the Polynesians, perhaps because of the sociable tendencies of the Americans who govern it and use it as a naval base. When a ship comes into harbour these people seat themselves in rows in the public gardens, with specimens of their handicraft spread in front of them-mainly carved wooden bowls and model catamarans, beaten bark "cloth," and bead work. These articles are for sale, but also for exchange, especially for your umbrella. The people have a passion for umbrellas and pyjamas; we exchanged nearly all we had for wooden bowls and bark curtains. No doubt they felt towards us as our English felt towards the Maoris when they acquired land in exchange for a few Birmingham toys (with the difference that the Maoris afterwards maintained that they did not understand that they were parting with their land). Fiji was somehow a pathetic place, no doubt because of the unhappy condition of the colonists from India, who number two-fifths of the population. Apart from economic conditions, there seems always a touch of pathos about Hindus-and Spaniards. Lost glories, felt in the blood. New Zealand and Australia, which are usually felt to be near together from the distance of England, though really they are more than twelve hundred miles apart, stand in considerable contrast as regards both their natural features (New Zealand has all the rugged beauty of Japan-both volcanic countries, which might well compete for first place in a beauty contest) and their people (the New Zealanders are very British and the Australians rather American in appearance and mode of life). We travelled throughout New Zealand. In several places we saw the Maoris at their farming work and travelling on the railway-very gentle people they seemed. But the women who act as guides at Potarua were altogether too pushing and personal. They seemed to think that we wanted to see them rather than the natural wonders of the place. We looked at the giant geyser, which happened to spurt while we were there, at the ponds of boiling mud, which jumps up in little lumps, giving one the illusion of a colony of lively frogs, and at the people cooking their food in vessels placed in the waters of the boiling springs. In the South Island, Christchurch especially seemed a little bit of old England, with its Avon (river) and its very English population. One day I rowed some ladies on that Avon, and as we were going round a bend a man cutting off the corner ran his prow on one of our rowlocks, causing our boat to heel over and half fill with water. I begged him not to back off but he did so, with the result that we rolled over on the other side, completely filled and slowly sank. The ladies behaved with perfect calm, sitting still, and only rising to their feet as the boat entirely disappeared under the water which was fortunately only about three feet deep. It was very amusing to see them holding up their little handbags and wading in three inches of mud and three feet of water to the bank, whence we hurried home in motor-cars Sydney is a crowded town with narrow streets, but beautiful suburbs, containing over a million people of the finest physical race in the world. I have said that the Australians are something like the Americans, but physically they have got them beat. The Americans are a little soft, but not so this outdoor race, everywhere fond of physical sports and pastimes, especially swimming, which is convenient for the Australian population, as it resides mostly round the coast. It is a race good for the eyes, I never tired of looking at them, although they made me feel rather small. Our destination was a suburb named Clifton Gardens and a fine old house, renamed " The Manor," when it became the residence of Mr. Leadbeater and his colony of Theosophists. I must, however, now call him Bishop Leadbeater, because since I had met him last he had become a Bishop of the Liberal Catholic Church, a new organization which some Theosophists had founded, with ceremonials closely following those of the Roman Catholic Church but a platform intended to allow entire freedom of thought with reference to all religious dogmas, except of course the belief in Jesus Christ as "our corner-stone." Bishop Leadbeater had always said that churches and their ceremonies radiated "force." Long before, he and Mrs. Besant had inspected at Rome the holy water of St. Peter's and also that of an independent preacher who had not the Apostolic Succession, and they had found the unofficial water more influential. But this was regarded as an exceptional case, because of the superlative goodness of the independent preacher, while the organization of the Apostolic Succession, on the other hand, provided for an allowance of force to pass through the body of any person properly initiated into the Succession, if the sex be male, even if the personal character be quite immoral and the body unclean. Bishop Leadbeater had attained his rank in the Church through the agency of two or three other Theosophists who had obtained their Succession through a man named Willoughby, who had been a Bishop in the Roman Catholic Church, but for some reason had left that body and had been experimenting with a new church of his own. In addition to joining the Liberal Catholic Church Bishop Leadbeater had entered the Co-Masonic movement (which admitted women and men on equal terms) and become a leading figure in that also, with the aid of Mrs. Besant, who was at the head of that movement as far as the British Empire was concerned. The great attraction of both these movements from Bishop Leadbeater's point of view was the sacramental force of their rituals. Some of the ceremonies were directed to help the individual - as, for example, those connected with absolution, marriage and death. Absolution was not regarded as removing the effects of sins but only as turning the sinner's face back into the virtuous direction and putting him right, so to speak, with God. But the most important sacramental actions or ceremonies, such as the Mass, were considered to distribute "help " over a large area. Both these movements were held to be vastly important for the work of the World Teacher who was still to come, and two Masters were in charge of them, personally directing their renaissance through Bishop Leadbeater, who was helping to revise as well as revive and popularize the ceremonial forms. The Master Jesus now living in seclusion somewhere in Syria, was held to be in charge of the Church. Since his incarnation in Palestine he had been incarnated, it was declared, in South India in the twelfth century as the reformer Sri Ramanujacharya. I already knew that Ramanujacharya had led a highly devotional revival in South India and had established one of the largest and most vigorous sects, in opposition to the old widespread Hindu belief that the soul of every man is absolutely one with God. Afterwards I learned that he rejected the movement for the substitution of " flour substitutes" for living victims in the sacrifical ceremonies and as such support of animal sacrifices did not seem consistent with the traditional character of Jesus, I was led by this to further doubt as to the reliability of Bishop Leadbeater's clairvoyant powers. In charge of the masonic movement was a Master, it was announced, living incognito in Europe, a man of great culture, formerly incarnated as Roger Bacon, and again as Francis Bacon, who was responsible for the chief part of the writings attributed to Shakespeare. Both these Masters were devoted to a still greater Master, the World Teacher who had used the body of Jesus, and was now to use that of Krishnamurti as soon as the occasion might be ripe. Being of an open mind I did not regard these propositions as inherently improbable. There are plenty of things in heaven and earth which are not yet known to the man in the street, the man in the laboratory and the man in the church. And I always had been predisposed to the belief that the best is the true, that goodness sprouts from something fundamental in the Universe and is not merely a superficial accident in man. But I disliked the ceremonials. They seemed to me to obstruct the good and the true, and make them dependent upon externals. How absurd to think that certain gestures and words could be vehicles of spiritual forces. Love, truth and the will were the only spiritual forces, and virtue was its own reward, or it was not virtue Spiritual force could not be ladled out like soup, nor distributed to the worthy as Sunday-school prizes, nor inherited like grandfather's pantaloons. When I saw what Bishop Leadbeater had been doing during the eleven years that I had been away from him I could not help thinking that there was little to show for the unique clairvoyant powers of which he believed himself to be possessed. I knew, of course, that it was " forbidden" to use those powers in any way which would give proof of their actual existence to a public which might easily, if convinced of such things, throw overboard its rational progress and indulge in an orgy of revelation and magic, or might at least prostitute the new science to selfish ends. In material matters, seemingly they could be used only for prov~dmg such information as that jazz music attracted revolting "elementals" and dead negroes, onions polluted astral as well as the physical body, and the wearing of black delayed occult progress. In my younger days, in the thoroughness of my passion for perfection, I might have dyed my hair golden, and recommended the whole Indian nation to do the same. But by now I was a confirmed disciple only of goodness, truth and beauty-perfection lay in the balanced synthesis of these, a terrific task, since the conditions of human life constantly of one virtue to another called for the sacrifice. I think that Bishop Leadbeater had come to the conclusion that his clairvoyance and the powers associated with it were useful only for occult purposes. He wanted humanity to undergo a change of heart. People were too self-centred, thinking of personal comfort, pleasure, ambition, pride and acquisition. Could they be persuaded to come out of themselves, and look at life from the standpoint of the general good instead of individual desire, the whole world would change. This was the one essential of progress, from his point of view, both for the individual and the world. One could do little for the world at large, for who would take heed of the preaching of this truth? Therefore he would (1) concentrate his attention upon a small community of people, especially young people, earnestly trying to become unselfish in thought, feeling and life, and (2) work for the ceremonial movements by which occult forces could be caused to play upon the auras of the people, and thus facilitate the impersonalizing process from the outside. ============== end of 1 of 2 ========== ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 17:22:19 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Wood's Book (V) 2 of 2 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970204232219.00691d4c@mail.eden.com> ============begin 2 of 2 ================ Impersonalization, he held, would naturally lead to occult progress, that is, to growth on other planes, to discipleship to the Masters (who were working always at the distribution of forces for the uplift of mankind), and to Initiations, of which there were five, of which the last was the gateway to adeptship or masterhood. He agreed that in this there was a subtle danger-one must take care that one's impersonality be not tainted by personal desire for these achievemeets or rewards, for such self-induction would certainly counteract the purpose of the effort. I wanted to know why those who believed in the efficacy of the forces released by the ceremonies did not practice them more. If I felt that I had such great powers to help I would want to do the ceremonies a hundred times a day, not once or twice. There was no satisfactory answer to this question. It could only be said that one must not give too much force. Well, then, the force was only medicine or a tonic, not a gift of life itself, and I would on the contrary prefer to devote myself to promoting the direct means by which life sustained and evolved itself. Bishop Leadbeater sighed at my obstinacy. He would say: "I find it much easier to develop the people with the aid of the ceremonies than without them, and as long as I find that to be so I shall go on using them." I think he was suffering under an illusion in the matter. He thought that the smoothing and refining of the auras indicated progress. He was running an occult beauty parlour. The auras may have come to look prettier to the clairvoyant eye, but it appeared to me that the people specially cultivated by him lacked in essential qualities of character as compared with others whom I knew, and that the atmosphere of his community encouraged the lack. He was painting dolls. I have alluded already to the analogy which he used of the cultivation of flowers and animals by man. It was really useless as an argument, for that cultivation is generally of one quality at the expense of another, and besides it is done by selective breeding of the plants or animals, not by pumping anything into their veins. I saw little use in making black salamanders turn yellow by keeping them in yellow boxes. On arrival at "The Manor" I did not at first find myself in the midst of the ceremonial activities, though the new dispensation was evident in the conversation and occupations of the community. I heard the church music frequently, both in the regular services and the practices, as the Manor Chapel was next to my room. I liked the music, which was well played and nicely softened by having to come through the wall. But I found that it had some hypnotic effect. Sometimes, when the mind was faced with a special difficulty requiring clear thought, it would jump the rails and one would find oneself humming a church tune instead of thinking. This hypnotic effect is one of the defects of all ceremonies, and of meditation involving repetition of formulas. I remember one young man at "The Manor" who was very devout, and used always to speak with bated breath. On one occasion he made a small faux pas in conversation, and immediately crossed himself, involving himself in still greater confusion. I found Bishop Leadbeater in bed. He had been suffering for a long time from rheumatic fever, and his hands, which lay outside the bed-cover were terribly twisted. My sympathy flamed up. I did not know how to express myself. After a little time our conversation turned to the subject of his books. He told me that he did not know whether he had much longer to live. He would like to have all his latest discoveries and thoughts put into books, that they might be correctly stated and recorded before he passed away. He had given many talks, and there were reports of these which would serve as a basis for books. During the eleven years he had written only three books-only one of real importance, The Science of the Sacraments, a study of the church rituals, describing what was clairvoyantly seen in connection with them. I remarked that there were some twenty or thirty fine looking people in the community, and no doubt as soon as he was a little better they would rally round and help him to bring his literary works up to date. "No," he sadly replied. " If you do not stay they will never be done. Several people have tried, without success." So I stayed, for over four years-with some small interludes of travel. The first book we selected was intended to publish all he knew about the Masters and discipleship to them. It was called The Masters and the Path. Some material had already been gathered together. I collected all the reports of Bishop Leadbeater's talks touching on these subjects, and then every day sat at his bedside and read what I had written up from these and from notes of our conversations. One of my little accomplishments acquired at Adyar was the ability to write in the style of either Mr. Leadbeater or Mrs. Besant, and neither of them could tell that paragraphs written by me had not been written by themselves Then there would be questions, discussions, and alterations and additions where necessary. In all my work with Mr. Leadbeater at Adyar there had seldom been any actual dictation, except in The Lives of Alcyone and in the last rescension of The Beginnings of the Sixth Root Race. Now there was no dictation at all. I must have written about half of The Masters and the Path, some parts of it containing my own ideas, as well as language, submitted to him for incorporation. A new thing was his statement that, surprising at it might seem, he had seen God (the Solar Logos) in personal form; I wrote it up suitably and put it in the book. A curious thing happened a few days after we had started work. I was sitting near his bed one afternoon when I suddenly felt something break open (like the bursting of a seed pod) in my head, and from it a cold current flooded my whole body, passing down the spine in waves and radiating from every part of the body. It seemed to me that this was not my own force, but was coming into me through my head, and that it was going out from me direct to Bishop Leadbeater. I was also aware that it was a healing current of some kind. After several minutes it died away, and I never mentioned it to Bishop Leadbeater, nor to others, except in a letter to Mrs. Besant. I do not know anything more about this phenomenon, which occurred quite outside my will. But it did coincide with an abrupt change in Bishop Leadbeater's condition. In a few days he was able to move about, and then it was only a matter of weeks until he had straightened himself up, and even his hands assumed their normal form. When we were about half-way through the preparation of The Masters and the Path Bishop Leadbeater one day showed me a document which he said had been given to him by a Master at Adyar many years before. It was simply a table of the rays or types of humanity. He thought it might be incorporated into the book, but there were some points he could not understand-he indicated three items in particular. I looked at the diagram, and at once exclaimed: " But I can explain these items." I gave him my explanations of the points in question. He was much astonished and asked me where I got this knowledge of a rather obscure subject. I told him that before leaving India I had been now and then receiving what seemed to me like internal communications on this subject of the rays or types of men. Sometimes there had been a voice, but generally ideas had been, as it were, insinuated into my mind, quite distinctly with the feeling of the presence of an intelligence other than my own. In this way I had accumulated a quantity of notes on the subject. I had been speaking on it occasionally at theosophical gatherings in America, without saying anything about occult experiences in connection with it, if such they could be called. It happened in Chicago that some of the members, particularly one, Dr. Beckwith, a leader there, had taken my information very seriously, and I was consequently much troubled, as I had no wish to lead others where I was myself somewhat blind. Late one night, as I was travelling along in an otherwise empty carriage on the elevated railway in Chicago, and I was brooding in a troubled way over this point, something electrical in my immediate atmosphere caused me to look up and I saw, or thought I saw, the Master standing there; and he said: " Do not be troubled about that information about the rays. It is quite correct. I gave it to you." When I had recounted this to Bishop Leadbeater, he said: "Well, we will not do any more of my work until you have written a book of your own on the seven rays." He put his work aside. I set to work on my own book. Early every morning I made notes for the day's dictation. During the day I dictated. In eight days my book was ready for the press. I gave the manuscript to Bishop Leadbeater with the request to point out any errors or defects, but after a few days he returned it to me saying: "I should not like to interfere with anything coming from that source." The book was duly published, and created quite a sensation among the Theosophists, who translated it into several languages, but no mention was made of the history I have recounted above. Afterwards, whenever I raised my voice against "authority" in the theosophical movement, Bishop Leadbeater would say to me: "But we regard you as our authority on the rays! " I could not, however, agree with him. Such experiences as I had had might very well be the work of the subconscious mind. My abnormal experiences in Sydney were not all connected with psychism. One morning I opened the newspaper, and this is what confronted me in massive type on the front page: PROFESSOR WOOD'S TRAGIC END BELOVED UNIVERSITY MAN FOUND HANGED My photograph appeared under this, and then two columns of letterpress: "Professor Wood was found hanged in his room.... " There was a Professor Wood in the Sydney University and he had hanged himself-the result of a distressing illness. Only the photograph was wrong, but letters of condolence poured into the office of the Broadcasting Station for which I was then speaking every week. Some of the writers must afterwards have been surprised on hearing my voice from the tomb-or rather the morgue-as it were, if they had not heard the explanation of the mistake. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:09:57 -0800 From: Robert Word Subject: Re: THEOS-ROOTS digest 268 Message-ID: <32F78985.72FA@TIW.COM> > Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 09:26:14 -0800 > From: Tim Maroney > Subject: Fwd: Re: HPB & Lucifer > Message-ID: <199702041727.JAA50690@scv3.apple.com> > > Subject: Re: HPB & Lucifer > Sent: 2/2/97 11:31 AM > Received: 2/2/97 12:35 PM > From: Tim Maroney, maroney@apple.com > ARCANA@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU > > Albert Pike in "Morals and Dogma" twice cites (actually, lifts from) Levi > a redeemed doctrine of Lucifer, using the same passage later used by > Crowley. I have had Freemasons deny to me that these passages even exist, > even when I give page numbers and quote them in full. They rarely even > try to rationalize them away, but simply repeat zombie-like that all > attributions of Satanic interests to Pike are the results of the Taxil > fraud. > Tom does not state which freemasons he is referring to. Freemasonry is not a monolithic structure, and there are many freemasons who have never even heard of the Taxil fraud. Masonry is not a research organization as such, and it would not be difficult for Tom, out of the many millions of (regular) masons out there, to find one who may be ignorant on some historical point of masonry to which he wishes to refer. There are masonic scholars who are superbly well informed about masonic history. I know masons who have documented the source of each and every passage in "Morals and Dogma", including the one cited by Tom. Albert Pike stated in the introduction to his book that much of his material was not original, and that he was simply quoting from other authors. Therefore, he did not commit an act of plagiarism (which circumstance exists only if there is willful deception). Pike was simply an indefatigable compiler of esoteric sources, melding them into an continuously flowing text, and making extensive quotations, which he found it too irksome or distracting to painstakingly footnote and document himself. The text "Morals and Dogma" is not an official textbook of freemasonry. It is viewed by freemasons as representing Pike's own opinions, from which any freemason may freely agree or differ. Pike revamped the Scottish Rite and turned it into the major organization that it is today. (I am referring to the regular Scottish Rite, and not the irregular London Scottish Rite, consisting of perhaps a handful of members, from which another writer in this forum claimed to possess documentation of Crowley's and Yarker's expulsion. The regular Scottish Rite is composed of millions upon millions of members, and Crowley was never affiliated with it, nor expelled from it.) Also, Pike received the 9th degree (magus degree) of masonic rosicrucianism from the Canadian High Council (now defunct). Wynn Westcott wrote to Pike offering to make him member and Head of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn in the United States, but Pike respectfully declined that latter offer. Robert Word From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 16:04:41 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: re: Reality (To Tom) Message-ID: <32F7CE8D.535C@withoutwalls.com> Tom wrote: >I was of the impression that, just like dozens of other pairs of opposites I >could list, spirit cannot exist without matter. -- Agreed. From Pralaya, at primordial manvantaric dawn the One is Two - and the Two relate to form "The 10,000 things" that arise within them. How's this for internet Senzar: (You are here) X X X X X X X X X X X X (You are here) --------------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:08:03 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: [Q's and ponderences] - to Ben Message-ID: In message <199702040647.XAA13566@snowden.micron.net>, kymsmith@micron.net writes >What or who are "the male personality defects?" Women are not negative >towards men, they are simply trying to eliminate the negative >actions/behaviors of a male-dominated society. Women (and men) who fight >for equality have been accused of being negative toward both men and women. I have been accused of being - [gasp!] - a *feminist!* I think this is intended to be a derogatory term, though I can't think why, unless it's because I am seen as being some sort of traitor to the male sex. It's all very puzzling. I just think it's long gone time we had *real* equality. Sigh. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:31:41 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Compensation worldwide (here and there) Message-ID: In message <01BC1246.89F55A60@rvik-ppp-116.ismennt.is>, Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB writes >If you are so unhappy about your position within the theosophical >movement, as some of you seem to be, pick yourself a position or a >field of work, and make that however small field an example for >others to see. If you are really good at it, you will eventually end up >being a "lamp unto others". But don't go about it by digging shit >and throwing it on others, because then you will never get out of >the mud-pool yourself. Sadly, Einar, I and many another have done what you suggest, only to have *others* digging shit and throwing it at *us*. Happily, this does not seem to happen in your country. > >Think about it! I thought about it. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:00:11 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 871 Message-ID: In message <32F6B626.A62@sprynet.com>, Bart Lidofsky writes (and quotes): >> With respect, *asking* someone what happens may or may not provide >> documentary evidence, assuming such evidence exists. Doss is simply >> asking for documentary backup for your information, and does not suggest >> that it is untrue. > > Respect acknowledged. > > Those who were on the Board at the time should have the documentation >as well, and should be able to show it to you (or Doss). However, I do >not see any documentation supporting any of the accusations I have been >hearing, either. > > Bart Lidofsky A good point. Perhaps someone will come forward with something ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:09:18 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Reality Message-ID: In message <199702041246.HAA24821@envirolink.org>, John Straughn writes >The One Principle is the ineffable, eternal (truly eternal, >not manvantarically) principle from which ALL things which exist spring. .. thus accounting for the existence of carrots. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 20:10:22 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: [women selfish?] Message-ID: <199702050410.UAA25593@palrel1.hp.com> kymsmith@micron.net wrote: > In the Middle East, women are required to wear chador (full covering) in > order not to "tempt" men and cause their "downfall." The result of this > thinking and practice has caused great suffering for women - and made men > appear weak of soul and devoid of any self-control. It has also failed to > lead to the new "golden age" you speak of. Indeed. It is amazing how even some very high spiritual persons of ages past did not understand women. But amongst partially enlightened spiritual teachers were many who recognized the truth. Yogananda wrote of his great guru, Sri Yukteswar, probably some time around 1915, "My guru mixed freely with men and women disciples, treating all as his children. Perceiving their soul equality, he made no distinction and showed no partiality ... "Sri Yukteswar never avoided or blamed women as the cause of 'man's downfall.' But he pointed out that women too, have to face temptation from the opposite sex. I once asked Master why a great ancient saint had called women 'the door to hell.' "'A girl must have proved very troublesome to his peace of mind in his early life,' my guru answered caustically. 'Otherwise he would have denounced, not woman, but some imperfection in his own self-control.'" ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 11:28:48 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: [women selfish?] Message-ID: <32ff6e69.3640813@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Ben wrote: >If women "train" men not to want them then they [men] may become less >selfish in the long term leading to a new "golden age" through eventual self >control. I believe sexual desire is too inherent to be able to trained out of anyone. >Granted, it may mean temporary pain for men but it would lead us >upwards to liberation. I don't see how it would do this. Liberation means being able to control how one responds to one's desires, so that abstinence from their fulfillment is a capability, not necessarily an actuality. >I don't know where the women would go to though, >possibly to Venus or perhaps to some other constellation like Sirius. As long as they get away from me, I don't care where they go. (Just kidding!) >So, if women do not give man what he wants she is being truly altuistic - >assuming she understands why she is doing it! I tend to think of altruism as referring to one's motives, not to results. Any destructive action can be mistakenly done by an altruist. >It still poses the vexed question of whether men *should* want anything at >all of women. I reserve the word "should" for moral decisions. I believe people are responsible for neither their desires nor their motives, but only for which choices they make regarding them. >If men don't ask for something they want it will inflict pain >on the emotional body and will simply impede but not prevent the >inevitable -conflict between spirit and matter. Spirit and matter relate to each other as men and women do. They are best united, not in conflict, which is unnecessary. You seem to be implying an extremely anti-materialist approach. I believe the ideal balance is to incorporate materiality, not deny it. Ken Wilber's "Sex, Ecology, Spirituality," (which is probably much easier reading than his earlier books) makes this more clear than anything else I have ever read. He considers the resentment of one's physical desires to be very dangerous. He criticized the Gnostics, among many others, for this imbalance. >If men don't ask anything of >women then how will the seed for the next race come about? I see no reason for men and women not to ask of each other what they want. The ideal relationship is when the desires of each are given equal weight. There is imbalance when one party to a relationship unselfishly sacrifices to the point of not even asking for what he or she wants. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 07:36:41 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970205133641.006c10c4@mail.eden.com> At 09:57 PM 2/3/97 -0500, Einar wrote: > > > >Doss wrote: > >Chuck: >I had a gut feeling about what you have stated. Even the International >President Radha Burnier has never taken any salary and worked for free >all her life. > >Einar here: > >I am not familiar with the salaries in the TS around the world, but I >have the feeling that it hardly exceeds the bare living necessities >and are often none at all. > >In Iceland the only paid post is the editor/manager of our Magazine, >who delivers it "ready for printing" to the printing house. He gets >about three months pay for a lot of professional work (200 pages >pr. year plus accounting and distribution). > >Every post in the society is voluntary work, and expenses rarely >paid unless they amount to an considerable amount. >>>>>>>>> clip <<<<<<<<<<< MKR: Every lodge I have been involved with, work was always voluntary. TS is today where it is because of the sacrifices of 1000s of members. Everyone on theos-l is well aware of it, unless one is a newbee. Einar: > >It's my experience that TS workers are not at all enviable of their >Work, at least not money-vise, and by reading the posts on this list, >their work doesn't seem much appreciated otherwise either. Of >course there are human problems inside the TS. In the management >of any society there are always traces of revelry, envy, jealousy, >etc. and it seems to be an "universal law" that those that never >won't do anything but talk, always know best how NOT to do >things! MKR Time and again, many times, everyone here have always been highly appreciative of the sacrifice, dedication and the wonderful work of all the staff at Wheaton. I am yet to hear a single adverse comment from anyone on theos-l. I am sure that it is the same in other countries as well. Einar: >Finally a small well-meant advise. > >If you are so unhappy about your position within the theosophical >movement, as some of you seem to be, pick yourself a position or a >field of work, and make that however small field an example for >others to see. If you are really good at it, you will eventually end up >being a "lamp unto others". But don't go about it by digging shit >and throwing it on others, because then you will never get out of >the mud-pool yourself MKR: Agreed. It is the individual who in his or her own way has to apply Theosophy in their daily life that makes the difference to anyone and everyone that he/she comes into contact with. Most of us do it. But we may not be bragging about it. On the other hand, when there are differences of opinion regarding the policies/actions as well as philosophy, I feel, we should not keep quiet and should speak up. Thanks for your input/feedback. MK Ramadoss aka doss >Think about it! > >Love and light > >Einar From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:23:52 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: [women selfish?] Message-ID: <199702051353.IAA09995@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Tom Robertson > > I see no reason for men and women not to ask of each other what they > want. The ideal relationship is when the desires of each are given > equal weight. There is imbalance when one party to a relationship > unselfishly sacrifices to the point of not even asking for what he or > she wants. Are we seeing a kinder and gentler Tom here? -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:59:59 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <199702051700.MAA20296@newman.concentric.net> > From: M K Ramadoss > > > Einar: > > > >It's my experience that TS workers are not at all enviable of their > >Work, at least not money-vise, and by reading the posts on this list, > >their work doesn't seem much appreciated otherwise either. > I take issue with your statement. I live near Olcott so I can readily see what kind of sacrifices people have to make to work there. I think the negativity you're hearing on the list have to do with policies and a tendency to hang onto the old ways of doing things, rather any criticism of the workforce. The people at Olcott are there because they have a love and committment to what they believe in. That can be stronger than any material discomfort or lack of money. As far as I'm concerned, they are being paid in spades by living in that wonderful atmosphere and beautiful natural grounds, the kind that are fast disappearing from my area and being swallowed up by tollways, industrial parks, housing developments and fast food franchises. In some ways, I envy them. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 18:02:05 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Message-ID: Thoa, Your theory that men men will develop ovaries is probably true since then we'll all become true homo sexuals (in the true sense of the word, as opposed to todays's use of the word). Secondly,I don't wish to be perceived as someone who has the same ideas as Tom - (I can see that it might go that way) I don't share his views! >Sigh, us poor women are always blamed for the feebleness of men. Men are not feeble. That's just the perception of some women, who have the characteristics of a relatively strong man. A true man is one who is neither feeble, nor without compassion, and vice versa. To give two examples of women who IMO were very "male" in their natures, and to whom I have the greatest of respect - Dion Fortune and Alice Bailey. >...Hey, don't blame Eve and don't blame that Serpent. I don't. >According to HPB... Thank you for that. >Negative? Moi? It appeared from earlier posts that you wanted to destroy the whole of the male aspect of humanity, I call that negative. Perhaps I should look at the quality rather than the appearance. >You give us too much power. The power is yourself. I don't understand. Does a cathode have too many electrons flowing towards it in an electric circuit from the anode? The number of electrons remains the same at all times in the circuit as a whole, it's just the voltage supply and the impedances that determine the current flow. When the battery has been used up you simply replace the battery as the work has been done. Are you saying we should increase the resistance in the circuit - perhaps to infinity? >So...if a woman is being raped, she should say, "Bad man, bad man. Take time out. I am not trying to stop this rape. I am freeing you for the golden age!" Rape is an extreme case, but you make an extremely valid point. >We're opening a resort on Venus. Is that in Taurus? Now I know you've a fixed attitude! Or perhaps Libra? No, you'd refer to rape again, assuredly. Or, if it's in Pisces? We're supposed to be going into the Age of Aquarius soon, so you'd be a little behind. Mars sounds good!!! Kym, By vain, I mean thinking purely in terms of their personality rather than their Soul nature. When I said "used as vehicles" I was simply asking whether the vehicles that women are presently residing in today will be the mediums through which the impulses for the next race will act. Women may not be the next "child bearers" it is only likely that they will be from a historical perspective. The "path of least resistance" to me is the point within the circle. Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:25:24 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > ---------- > > From: M K Ramadoss > > > > > Einar: > > > > > >It's my experience that TS workers are not at all enviable of their > > >Work, at least not money-vise, and by reading the posts on this list, > > >their work doesn't seem much appreciated otherwise either. > > > > I take issue with your statement. I live near Olcott so I can readily > see what kind of sacrifices people have to make to work there. > I think the negativity you're hearing on the list have to do with > policies and a tendency to hang onto the old ways of doing things, > rather any criticism of the workforce. > > The people at Olcott are there because they have a love and > committment to what they believe in. That can be stronger than > any material discomfort or lack of money. As far as I'm concerned, > they are being paid in spades by living in that wonderful atmosphere > and beautiful natural grounds, the kind that are fast disappearing from > my area and being swallowed up by tollways, industrial parks, housing > developments and fast food franchises. In some ways, I envy them. > > -AEB Ann: I have never heard anything but high compliments for the work that the workers are doing at Olcott. Those of us who have seen the traffic, especially during the later part of 1995 during the so called "house keeping" by-law changes and subsequent elections, can appreciate the background from which some of the criticisms come from. Added to it is the opinions of many of us on other matters of philosophy and policies. I would give Einar benefit of doubt since he may not have read the past messages. As I had stated in my earlier message, all of us in our own way, try to apply T/theosophy and hope we can make a difference in the lives of other living beings. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:19:41 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <970205141609_410710942@emout20.mail.aol.com> Ann, In a message dated 97-02-05 12:07:01 EST, you write: >The people at Olcott are there because they have a love and >committment to what they believe in. That can be stronger than >any material discomfort or lack of money. As far as I'm concerned, >they are being paid in spades by living in that wonderful atmosphere >and beautiful natural grounds, the kind that are fast disappearing from >my area and being swallowed up by tollways, industrial parks, housing >developments and fast food franchises. In some ways, I envy them. > > The problem is that the staff is not always well treated by the administration or the members. In the past it was often the case that a staff member would make a very real financial sacrifice to come to Olcott, thinking that he or she would be able to make a real contribution to the running of the TS only to discover that they had landed on the bottom of the pecking order in the entire section. Then there are those unfortunates who have been deluded into thinking that Olcott is some sort of holy place only discover themselves in the midst of an administrative center with all the politics that goes on in such places. In both cases the result has been painful disillusionment. In addition, Olcott is the focus for every complaint in the section. Having nice gounds is poor compensation for all that. I don't envy the poor devils a bit. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 20:40:52 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [desires] Message-ID: >I believe sexual desire is too inherent to be able to be trained out of anyone. I have to disagree. Once the laws governing the desire body are understood (which may only be learnt through the experience of the feminine nature) sexual desire can be transmuted into a higher expression of the love principle. If one does this for long enough I am certain that sexual (or other) desire will no longer enter the mind of the individual. Also, I cannot believe that the Masters would have any "desire" for their female disciples but almost certainly they would "love" them. >I don't see how it would do this. Liberation means being able to control how one responds to one's desires, so that abstinence from their fulfilment is a capability, not necessarily an actuality. I have always agreed with this logical reasoning, but HPB made me unsure of this rational analysis, that's all. >I believe people are responsible for neither their desires nor their motives, but only for which choices they make regarding them. Responsible to whom? Does this responsibility extend to children? If so...if as a child your parents had physically abused you and you then decided to run away from home are you responsible for choosing the route you chose? >Spirit and matter relate to each other as men and women do. I would say Spirit and Matter are synonymous terms,are the terms men and women the same?I would say not. Whilst the soul may be either depending on the incarnation the expression on the physical plane appears to be different.One is only human [man or woman] on the physical plane as far as I am aware. >You seem to be implying an extremely ant-materialist approach. Perhaps that is because I am studying engineering and feel spiritually alienated. The academics here are materialists pure and simple! However, I am not anti-materialist,nor am I anti the physical/desire bodies, but the mental faculties must control them. I suppose I am just reflecting my own inner conflicts. I've always been very dual in nature.Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:53:58 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Reality (to Tom) Message-ID: <19970205210259.AAA16458@JerrySchueler> Tom: >From what I can gather about clairvoyance, it follows the same rules >as physical observation. There is an objective reality which is >perceived. Seeing anger in someone's aura is different from imagining >seeing anger in someone's aura in that one is objectively true and the >other is objectively false. Or are you saying that you believe that >imagination and reality are identical in non-physical perception? But, unless there is corroborating testimony from others, there is absolutely no way to know if your clairvoyant perceptions are "accurate" or not. Seeing another's aura is easy to verify-- just ask that person or a friend. But what happens when you astral travel to another Globe? Or to the planet Mars? There is no other person around to verify your perceptions, and you therefore have no way of being "objective." But then again, all of this assumes that objective reality is the consensus of others. This "consensus" is what I call the overlapping of Not-I's. Physical existence is just this. If something physically exists, then it can be verified by others (which is what the scientific method is all about). But this is just not so on the inner planes, where only a small amount of overlap (consensus) occurs. For example, our dreams take place on the inner planes. How much objectivity is in a dream? Well, sometimes dreams come true, but more often than not, they don't. So, are dreams unreal? Well, my whole point is that they seem very real while dreaming, and only seem unreal after waking. Our dreams have no consensus with others, and so they have a personal reality rather than a collective reality. In short, you (and most folks) see only collective reality as being objectively real, while I maintain that personal reality is just as "real" as collective reality. Whatever I experience is real to me while I am experiencing it. Some of my experiences can be verified by others, and some cannot be. To label those experiences that are personal to me as unreal is ignoring a large part of existence (I suspect that over half of our life is spent in personal reality). A lot of folks, for example, ignore their dreams or pretend that they don't dream. This is a mistake, and a terrible waste of valuable experience. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:59:08 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Judaic Law Message-ID: <19970205210259.AAB16458@JerrySchueler> > Hmmmm...the law states that if someone loses an eye, then the person >who caused the injury should replace the eye as best as they can. The >same as a tooth, etc. What is wrong with that? > > Bart Lidofsky "Vengence is mine, sayth the Lord." In short, it is your motive that counts here. If your motive is vengence, then following the Judaic law is wrong. If it is repentence, then fine. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:23:58 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <199702060255.VAA26761@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > > Then there are those unfortunates who have been deluded into thinking that > Olcott is some sort of holy place only discover themselves in the midst of an > administrative center with all the politics that goes on in such places. In > both cases the result has been painful disillusionment. It is a "holy place", as far as I'm concerned. But I haven't been anyplace where human beings ran a business or spiritual center that wasn't rife with soap opera at its core. As one of my former bosses' said to me, "Wouldn't life be great without people in it?" -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:12:57 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Q's and Ponderences Message-ID: <199702060312.TAA25491@proxy2.ba.best.com> Ben: >Your theory that men men will develop ovaries is probably true since then >we'll all become true homo sexuals (in the true sense of the word, as opposed >to todays's use of the word). Have you ever seen a picture of a developing fetus? In the beginning, the fetus' sex organ looks like a penis with a vaginal opening on its underside, and an early scrotum shape - basically a hermaphrodite. As it develops, a female will have her penis-shape organ diminish into a clitoris, and the scrotum diminish into a labia. In the male, the opening closes on the penis, and the early scrotum becomes more developed. You males are not that far away from us as you thought, so be nice. >Secondly,I don't wish to be perceived as >someone who has the same ideas as Tom - (I can see that it might go that way) >I don't share his views! It's good for your luck with women if you stay far, far away from Tom. He has done you men a great disservice. Now it will be harder for men to find dates. >That's just the perception of some women, who have the >characteristics of a relatively strong man. What about those women just having the characteristics of strong women? >A true man is one who is neither >feeble, nor without compassion, and vice versa. A true man will owe up to his mistakes and try to correct it. >It appeared from earlier posts that you wanted to destroy the whole of the >male aspect of humanity, I call that negative. Perhaps I should look at the >quality rather than the appearance. No, I actually want a balance. We need both logic and emotion, creativity and structure, and leadership and community. I feel that there has been too much of an emphasis on logic, structure and leadership in the world to the detriment of the society and the earth, and that we need to bring back the balance. Look closely at what I was responding to, how the statements were said. Perhaps you feel threatened because you are comfortable with society as it is and have never felt any difficulty from it. I am looking from the point of view of people who have felt numerous injustices because of it. >Does a cathode have too many electrons flowing towards it >in an electric circuit from the anode? (crossing eyes and pushing up tip of nose) Ooh, actually, the current flows from the cathode to the anode. >The number of electrons remains the >same at all times in the circuit as a whole, it's just the voltage supply and >the impedances that determine the current flow. When the battery has been >used up you simply replace the battery as the work has been done. Are you >saying we should increase the resistance in the circuit - perhaps to >infinity? (pushing tip of nose up even higher) I'm not recommending an increase in resistance. The resistance was naturally causing in this capacitor world, when the current of respect towards women keeps alternating back and forth depending on whether men loves women or is threatened by them. This female capacitive reactance produced causes us to resist. This combined with the ole normal effective resistance of life makes everything so much more difficult. >>We're opening a resort on Venus. >Is that in Taurus? Now I know you've a fixed attitude! Or perhaps Libra? No, >you'd refer to rape again, assuredly. Or, if it's in Pisces? We're supposed >to be going into the Age of Aquarius soon, so you'd be a little behind. Mars >sounds good!!! I don't care when it is as long as we're having our massages on a resort! Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:23:15 -0700 (MST) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: One more time - to Ben Message-ID: <199702060623.XAA28018@snowden.micron.net> Ben wrote: >Kym, > >By vain, I mean thinking purely in terms of their personality rather than >their Soul nature. I asked you in a previous post: Are you asking if women feel that they are being exploited when it comes to having children? What do you mean when you say "are they simply being vain?" You ignored the first question and answered the second. I am taking your response to my "vain" question as insinuating that women who choose not to have children are thinking "purely in terms of their personality rather than their Soul nature." Is my assumption correct? If it is, I find it insulting. People are here for many different purposes. It is offensive to even consider that a woman who decides against having children, for whatever reason, is not cognizant of her "Soul nature." I also asked you "What or who are "the male personality defects?" You ignored that question, too. >When I said "used as vehicles" I was simply asking whether the vehicles that >women are presently residing in today will be the mediums through which the >impulses for the next race will act. Women may not be the next "child >bearers" it is only likely that they will be from a historical perspective. Should women become obsolete in the process of having children, it would follow that the need for men in the process of having children would also become obsolete. Should that occur humans would no longer be humans, we would become something else altogether. Perhaps the question should be, then, what will humanity as we know it become? The male/female question is secondary. You wrote in a previous post: >I realise that prostituting their vehicles for the >male personality defects would be considered wrong, but why are they so >negative towards men? What did you mean by the term "prostituting?" >The "path of least resistance" to me is the point within the circle. Your answer to my question about what the "path of least resistance" was leads me into further confusion. You wrote: "If it is could it mean that men with greater "life-force potential" try to follow the path of least resistance. If this is the case are women selfish if they try to restrain the flow of force? If this is the case what does this mean for the race impulses?" What does the "point within the circle" mean when taken in context with your original question? I also asked you: "You're wondering why women want to attain more "power" or "life-force?" What do you mean "try to restrain the flow of force?" You failed to address these questions along with the others I noted. You are coming across as a male who thinks the female is little more than a humorous, pesky, and clueless entity. Is this your intention? Kym ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu Feb 6 03:11:29 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: Q's and ponderences Message-ID: <199702060811.DAA29692@envirolink.org> >> From: Thoa Tran >> >> Yawn...this verbal sparring is getting boring. I say us women meet the >> misguided men physically, and have a go at it. I have to warn you, if you >> run away in the middle of a fight, I will have to chase after you. Chances >> are, unless you are also a runner, I will catch you. When I engage a bull, >> I always finish the job by thrusting the sword into his heart. Afterward, >>I boil him, slice him, dot him with butter, and top him with a sprig of >>mint. No, actually, that's Ann's recipe for sexist men who turned into >>carrots. I have never been a sexist, even in my pre-carrot days. You may have considered me a sexist, but that is only speculation. If I were a woman, and posing as a man on this newsgroup, would I still be a sexist? Maybe I am a woman and I've been playing with you all along. And maybe I'm not really a carrot now. Maybe I'm actually a cabbage. Ya' know, bunnies eat cabbage too. Anyhow, blahblahblah, I don't see how you could consider me a sexist. I have no definite descriptions and definitions of a "woman", just as much as I have no definitions of a "man". I do have speculations of which I like to share with others so that I may recieve more background on the subject, but none of the "definitions" which I relay are written in stone. Let me take some of this back. Kinda. In referring to women, a "woman" is defined as "a female human being". "Female: designating or of the sex that produces ova and bears offspring". "Human: a hominid having an opposable thumb, the ability to make and use specialized tools, articulate speech, and a highly developed brain with the faculty of abstract thought". And that's all a woman can be truly and unarguably defined as. Period. Dot. End of story. Nothing else can be related totally to a woman or a man, without argument, except VERY general physical description. No woman is the same, just as no man is the same. "Feminine" and "masculine" are terms which have been accepted and are widely used to mean certain things. To argue with me about the degredation of "feminine" meaning "weak" is not going to change the definition in Webster's Dictionary. (I hope they have changed this definition by now. I'm looking in a fairly old book) I do not use the words feminine or masculine because of their degrading meanings, on both sides. Good and bad are relative, no matter what they are describing. The really sad thing is that the last time I tried to make an example of the equality that men and women share, I got a message saying "oh, boo hoo." Perhaps compassion simply does not exist anymore in women or men. Or perhaps "masculine" and "feminine" should be redefined? Maybe masculine should refer to compassion and weakness, and feminine should be defined as bold, strong, and vigorous. >From what I've noticed so far is that the women who feel that they are oppressed seem to think that they should be treated as though they are both masculine AND feminine, i.e. compassionate bold strong vigorous, etc, but that men should never have any weakness whatsoever. Chauvenists may be sexist, but don't examples like these just make feminists hypocritical? Which is worse? --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu Feb 6 03:24:48 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: Q's and ponderences Message-ID: <199702060824.DAA00185@envirolink.org> John Straughn writes: >>> From: Thoa Tran >>> >>> Yawn...this verbal spa This is all I recieved from the post I sent. Pleeeeez tell me everyone else got more of it. --- The Triaist From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:17:22 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Q's and ponderences Message-ID: <199702061316.IAA15320@cliff.cris.com> > From: John Straughn > > >> From: Thoa Tran > >> > >> Yawn...this verbal sparring is getting boring. I say us women meet the > >> misguided men physically, and have a go at it. I have to warn you, if you > >> run away in the middle of a fight, I will have to chase after you. Chances > >> are, unless you are also a runner, I will catch you. When I engage a bull, > >> I always finish the job by thrusting the sword into his heart. Afterward, > >>I boil him, slice him, dot him with butter, and top him with a sprig of > >>mint. No, actually, that's Ann's recipe for sexist men who turned into > >>carrots. > > I have never been a sexist, even in my pre-carrot days. . . Actually, my slice em', dice em' comments on what you could do with your carrotness never had anything to do with sexism. Since you, JS, expressed a wish to become a carrot, I simply explained your destiny as one of the root vegetables. They are nutritious and fulfill their destiny on our dinner plates. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 15:43:40 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [reply] Message-ID: Thoa, >What about those women just having the characteristics of strong women. Aren't the characteristics of strong men and strong women exactly the same in the last analysis, since we are all converging to same point, the human monad. >No, I actually want balance... I agree that there may have been too much logic, structure, and leadership.However, are you saying we should through pure creative expression build structures that are chaotic (illogical), emotionally led and are perfectly decentralised? Here in the UK decentralisation of government might be a useful thing being a rather small society, but in the US it will cause chaotic behaviour which if is not not stablised logically will lead to the destruction of the structures put forward. When you question leadership, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, you are questioning the whole of the hierarical struture of the TS! I am not "comfortable" with the way things are at the moment in society, but one must not take such a short-sighted viewpoint, we have the whole of the manvantara to get things perfectly in order. That is not to say that we should rest on our laurels, theosophical students should be the dynamic forces within any society, but one cannot allow emotional reaction to dictate our future structures. That leads to extremist reactionries, religious fanatics, and political dictatorships. We should build up our intellectual faculties to develop rational solutions. The current of respect,rightly or wrongly, is alternating in nature not simply because of men's emotional patterns but is I believe a natural process of the divine law of periodicity being expressed in the human kingdom which women can learn more about themselves from.What is the "normal effective resistance of life" by the way? Kym, No, I was not asking if women feel that they are being exploited when it comes to having children. The Q. had not even entered my head but perhaps it might be useful. The response ofcourse depends on your racial,intellectual, and emotional expression. What is true in your reality is not of necessity true of other women. Therefore, unless you did a worldwide survey,in all social classes and did a summation you would get an invalid answer. Vanity is related to selfishness. Vanity is also related to intent.Intent is related to creative expression. Creative expression is the essence of either involution or evolution. If the intention of the individual is to produce a child regardless of the evolutionary goal then it is selfishness. If that selfishness is due to moral behaviour which is perceived by the individual as right but by the whole as unhelpful and preventing the evolutionary path I call that vanity. By "male personality defects" I mean selfishness on the part of the male species. I mean the mechanisms that prevent balance, and that do not allow a channel for divine expression in spirit-matter. The path of least resistance IMHO is that line of force which was followed by the Third Logos at the beginning of the manvantara with the uttering of the Word and it is the same "line" that the monad is "on". Since we are all a part of the human monad the "flow of force" is an illusion in absolute terms but in terms of human consciousness at this point in our evolution we believe we are separate from it. We perceive it more easily in the male/female relationships and so we are drawn towards it hence the path of least resistance. Perhaps the reason why women are all potential is simply because in relative terms they are more easily knowing that the monad IS what they are, hence less dynamic activity.I hope I've made the slightest bit of sense. By restraining the "flow of force" women are more able to show men how to "stop" for a monent and perceive what they are, and show them that they do not need dynamic response in order to produce creative expression. That is not to say that men are "feeble"!!! Sorry for the long post. Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 97 11:35:48 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: A.R.E. and cults Message-ID: <199702061635.LAA10130@leo.vsla.edu> > > "Why A.R.E. Is Not a Cult" by Herbert Bruce Puryear > > When some of our members join A.R.E., their friends or families become > greatly concerned that they have joined a cult. However, when A.R.E.'s > teachings are measured by textbook criteria of what constitutes a cult, it > is found that we fit none of them. > > Here are some reasons that A.R.E. is _not_ a cult: > > * We encourage you to work in your own personally preferred church or > religious organization. If it comes to a choice between A.R.E. and your > church, stay with your church. > > * We do not encourage you to "identify with" A.R.E. Identify with the > Christ principle. > > * We do not sponsor any one person's ideas or point of view but, through > our speakers and books, present differing points of view for the > consideration of the seeker. > > * We do not encourage you to be guided by dogma or an authoritative > external source but rather by the living Spirit within yourself. > > * We claim no special revelation. There is nothing "new" here that may > not be found in other studies. Cayce said of his own work that he did > nothing that we could not do. > > * We encourage comparative study, not just the study of one source or > perspective. > > * We encourage application of what one knows rather than dogmatism about > what others would have you believe. > > * Membership in A.R.E. is based upon a wish to work with this information > and support this work -- not upon agreeing to a dogma or belief system. > ********* This was posted to a list I participate in, and I thought it relevant to the situation of Theosophy today. All these things could have been honestly said about the early TS by HPB and Olcott; none of them would ring very true today from any of the Theosophical organizations, although many individual lodges still adhere to these principles. Much of what has been said recently about the Krishnamurti experience explains why the organizations now give only lip service to these ideals. This leaves me wondering if there are any signs of hope in any of the organizations today. Surely they cannot stay stuck in the first half of the 20th century forever? ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:53:09 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: [desires] Message-ID: <32fcec61.1451557@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Benjamin wrote: >I cannot believe that the Masters would have any "desire" for their female >disciples but almost certainly they would "love" them. That reminds me of a scene in the movie "Gandhi," in which he tells either one of his female disciples or a female journalist what a temptress she is. >>I believe people are responsible for neither their desires nor their >>motives, but only for which choices they make regarding them. >Responsible to whom? Does this responsibility extend to children? In varying degrees. An infant does not know enough to be responsible. Adults, to unique degrees, do. It gradually develops. I consider the development of free will to be one of the primary tasks of humanity. >>Spirit and matter relate to each other as men and women do. >I would say Spirit and Matter are synonymous terms, I see spirit and matter as inseparable, but distinguishable, from each other. >are the terms men and women the same? In exactly the same way, masculine and feminine are distinguishable, but inseparable. Pure femininity and pure masculinity exist only in the abstract. >One is only human [man or woman] on the physical plane as far as I am >aware. I would include emotional and mental, at least, in what I would call human. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:46:58 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: [reply] Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970206184658.0072e2a8@mail.eden.com> At 10:53 AM 2/6/97 -0500, Ben wrote: >will lead to the destruction of the structures put forward. When you >question leadership, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, you are >questioning the whole of the hierarical struture of the TS! Let me add my 2 cents worth. We may have to look at it from two aspects. One has to do with the property, money, publication, PR etc -- primarily dealing with the "routine" type or organizational matter. The second has to do with "search for Truth", salvation, etc which has to do with the internals -- intangibles of human beings what ever we may want to call - spritual etc. For the former to run efficiently and effectively and somebody being accountable for the things of the physical world, a structure is needed. How tight is the hierarchical structure is a question that need to be addressed. As for the latter, I do not think that the idea of a spiritual guru on the physical world at the top of the hierarchical structure is going to work. It may make the life of many easy. It is easy to carry out orders. They donot have to think. They have to just wait for orders from the top and blindly and obediently execute these orders. Once this is done you have the satisfaction of having made some spiritual progress. If something does not work or goes wrong you can always blame the spiritual guru. If someone is comfortable with this setup, who can argue. On the other hand, if the administrative gurus want to get involved with what we study or practice, then we have a problem because this is not going to work for reaching the first object as Master KH stated "philanthropy". This is something that each one of us has to decide and study or practice what we want. There is yet another problem that comes up. When you mix the above two, you have the deadly brew of politics which ultimately wastes everyones time and energy and sometimes even substantial money that should go to philanthropical work. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:08:17 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <970206140655_-1442732268@emout03.mail.aol.com> Ann, In a message dated 97-02-05 22:02:07 EST, you write: >It is a "holy place", as far as I'm concerned. But I haven't been anyplace >where human beings ran a business or spiritual center that wasn't rife >with soap opera at its core. As one of my former bosses' said to me, >"Wouldn't life be great without people in it?" > >-AEB I have never found it so, but then that is not what I'm into so I wouldn't be looking for holiness anywhere except in Swiss cheese. In any event, Cosimano's First Law of Organizational Stuff states: The closer one is to the center of power in any organization, the more cynical one becomes about the organization. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:02:46 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Krishnamurti Message-ID: <199702062003.PAA24723@newman.concentric.net> For some time I've wanted to do Krishnamurti's chart, but felt I didn't have accurate natal information. I found my current information on the Zodiacal Zephyr Web Page (http://metro.turnpike.net/S/SRozhon/index.html), which has a database with the birth data of 2,000 celebrities. Jeddu Krishnamurti Sunday, May 12, 1895 12:18 AM Madanapalle India Longitude: 81E08 Latitude: 13N33 Krishnamurti was born an Aquarian rising, one who is progressive and humanitarian. Moon in Sagittarius, in the 11th house, he would enjoy change, travel and explore philosophy. He was benevolent and a natural-born teacher. He had a love of independence and many acquaintances, but few reliable friends. He had a scientific attitude that probably inclined him to abhor rituals, ceremonies and the devotional. Uranus in Scorpio, in the ninth house, foresaw intense struggles against traditional ways, especially in religious and philosophical institutions. This is another indicator of travel in his life. Saturn in Scorpio is also in this house, suggesting a tendency towards asceticism, separation from one's country and restrictions or confinement for him in a foreign land. This also indicates possible loss through litigation. Probably the most important aspect in his chart is Pluto conjunct Neptune in the fourth house. The presence of Neptune in the fourth house would suggest many changes in residences. It also suggests a strange family or domestic situation. On a deeper level, it can mean spiritual perception. Pluto placed here can mean that his past-life qualities molded his destiny. He would willing to accept unusual or difficult tasks. The conjunction itself indicates a spiritual mission to bring new and higher levels of consciousness to humanity. But one would have to forget oneself and dedicates one's will to the service of humanity to accomplish it. Mercury in Taurus in the fourth house also indicates travel. Essentially, K's home was on the road. Mercury also suggests he would be deeply involved in his goals and ideas. His North Node resides in the first house, a placement that brings honor and wealth in educational and religious endeavors. Uranus trines this node, giving one tendencies toward leadership in reform. Neptune squares his North Node, saying that he was a mystical dreamer. His Part of Fortune rested in the seventh house, where Uranus sextiled and Neptune squared it. The sextile brought sudden good fortune through his business and personal associations, while the Neptune square brought deception and loss through partnerships. I wanted to see what kinds of transits were present when he made his famous "pathless land" speech. On August 3, 1929, Jupiter conjunct his natal Pluto. This was a time when he would have had greater reliance on his own internal, spiritual guidance and would have wanted to put his ideals into action by regenerating the forms of existing institutions. This transit also indicates personal leadership. That transit was preceded by Pluto trining his natal Uranus on July 5, 1929, when he would have achieved a higher level of awareness. In terms of Rays in his chart, the 4th (Harmony through Conflict) and 2nd ( Love/Wisdom) are in the majority. There is only one 6th Ray body and that is the North Node, which is not a major planet. The 6th Ray, being the ray of the Piscean Age, with its devotional, dualistic and sacrificial nature, would have not been in his consciousness. It is no wonder he did not favor rituals, ceremonies, prayers or wish to be the object of devotion. While it is clear from his chart that he was slated for a mission, it was obviously not one that would have fit the Piscean mode that some had hoped for. It seems to me that he was ahead of his time and would have been much more comfortable in the Aquarian Age, with its emphasis on independence, cool detachment, scientific study, humanitarianism, group work and the personal search for enlightenment. Perhaps he was its precursor. One cannot help but wonder why he was picked by those at TS, since he did not seem to fit the profile they were expecting. Could it be that the sensational story that was told by the gods, at that time in TS's history, was exactly the way it should have been written? To throw in another source, the Bailey material says that Christ may return, not necessarily as a person, but in the hearts of people. If that is so, then K's philosophy of pursuing one's own spirituality by looking within, rather than relying on some outside source, would perfectly fit. If each individual (or a large group) would discover the Christ within, then start to manifest it in their lives, the World Teacher would walk the earth in their persons. Thanks to Doss and JHE for providing me the pieces to this puzzle. As far as my mileage varying, I've probably driven too far all ready. I leave the rest to the list. -Ann E. Bermingham ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:10:51 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Krishnamurti Message-ID: Ann: A very good astrological analysis of this chart. I would like to mention that the ground work for his being able to travel and speak was provided by the members of TS and many of them were and are affected by his speeches and writings. This network was very crucial in his mission. The expectation of TS leaders were that he would fall into a pattern that they had imagined, but he took off in a totally unexpected direction. If you look at some of the writings of HPB, she talked about the same things as K also spoke. One of the greatest contribution of his was to make every one think. And also raised the serious question about spiritual hierarchy and authority. His speeches and writings provided me with a better understanding of fundamental practical principles of T/theosophy which made me see some of the things more clearly and also made be bold to speak up when needed no matter whom you deal with. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:08:43 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <199702070118.UAA14812@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > Ann, > > >It is a "holy place", as far as I'm concerned. But I haven't been anyplace > >where human beings ran a business or spiritual center that wasn't rife > >with soap opera at its core. As one of my former bosses' said to me, > >"Wouldn't life be great without people in it?" > > > >-AEB > > I have never found it so, but then that is not what I'm into so I wouldn't be > looking for holiness anywhere except in Swiss cheese. In any event, > Cosimano's First Law of Organizational Stuff states: > The closer one is to the center of power in any organization, the more > cynical one becomes about the organization. > I have no doubt about that. Especially since they keep eating all those Swiss cheese sandwiches, with lettuce and mayo. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:37:08 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: desires Message-ID: <199702070137.RAA04555@proxy1.ba.best.com> Ben: >I have to disagree. Once the laws governing the desire body are understood >(which may only be learnt through the experience of the feminine >nature) sexual desire can be transmuted into a higher expression of the love >principle. If one does this for long enough I am certain that sexual (or >other) desire will no longer enter the mind of the individual. What a pity. Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:38:06 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: IQ Test Message-ID: <199702070138.RAA05575@proxy1.ba.best.com> HOW SMART ARE YOU? READ this sentence: FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE- SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF- IC STUDY COMBINED WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS. Now count aloud the F's in that sentence. Count them ONLY ONCE; do not go back and count them again. ANSWER There are six F's in the sentence. One of average intelligence finds three of them. If you spotted four, you're above average. If you got five, you can turn your nose at most anybody. If you caught six, you are a genius. There is no catch. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:37:47 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Feminism and Womanhood Message-ID: <199702070137.RAA05016@proxy1.ba.best.com> Alan's post regarding someone calling him a feminist raised a question in my mind. What is a feminist? I am lucky enough to grow up in a time when a lot of the hard work for women have been done. I know that I need to be aware of fairness to everyone. It seems very obvious to me that that is the way it should be that it sometimes is hard to imagine it any other way. Is a feminist a militant fighter for women who feel that all men are potential enemies, as some men think. Is a feminist just someone who wants the same rights and opportunities as men have? If a woman wears makeup, is dressed in dresses, and flirts with men, can she still be a feminist? If a woman stays at home to be with her children, can she still be a feminist? What is a feminist? I personally am proud and happy to be a woman. Instead of feeling like someone disadvantaged, I feel lucky that I'm able to be intuitive about people, sensitive to people that I know, and able to see a good part of the whole social scheme. I like hearing women's point of views on things. I'm proud of other women who are intelligent, creative, athletic, compassionate, nurturing and/or beautiful. I say, "You go, woman!" Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:37:35 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Q's and ponderences Message-ID: <199702070137.RAA04783@proxy1.ba.best.com> Triaist Carrot(?): >I have never been a sexist, even in my pre-carrot days. Then were you a fruitist? >If I were a woman, and >posing as a man on this newsgroup, would I still be a sexist? Maybe I am a >woman and I've been playing with you all along. And maybe I'm not really a >carrot now. Maybe I'm actually a cabbage. Maybe you were a man who dreamed that he was a woman who thought that she was a man cross-dressed as a woman who pretended to be a man thought to be sexist, but was actually not, who turned into a carrot, not a ginseng root, but now is a cabbage that is possibly a fruitist. >Maybe I'm actually a cabbage. Cabbage and carrots both taste great boiled, but cabbage smells like fart. >Ya' know, bunnies eat cabbage too. Are you calling us women bunnies? If you are, then we are going to have more arguments that will include Hugh Hefner's name. >In referring to women, a "woman" is >defined as "a female human being". "Female: designating or of the sex that >produces ova and bears offspring". Is a woman still a woman if she does not have the ability to bear children, if she is infertile? Is a woman still a woman if she intends to never have children? Is a woman still a woman if she had a hysterectomy? If a man had a sex change into a woman, is he a she? >The really sad thing is that the last time I tried to make an example of the >equality that men and women share, I got a message saying "oh, boo hoo." >Perhaps compassion simply does not exist anymore in women or men. Or perhaps >"masculine" and "feminine" should be redefined? Maybe masculine should refer >to compassion and weakness, and feminine should be defined as bold, strong, >and vigorous. (throwing wet Kleenex at the Triaist Cabbage) There, I made up for it by having a good cry for you. Of course, I shouldn't have to anymore, because your predicament is now solved. I'm sorry, but at the time that you made that statement, my mind was on abused women, girls being given to prostitution, raped women, families solely headed by women, economic discrimination, female fetal abortion, etc., you know, the usual things. I guess my sensitivity has been too low due to the extreme cases. >>From what I've noticed so far is that the women who feel that they are >oppressed seem to think that they should be treated as though they are both >masculine AND feminine, i.e. compassionate bold strong vigorous, etc, but that >men should never have any weakness whatsoever. > >Chauvenists may be sexist, but don't examples like these just make feminists >hypocritical? >Which is worse? That was not my statement above. I certainly don't feel that men should never have any weakness. I go for the underdogs myself. We are all human. >John Straughn writes: >>>> From: Thoa Tran >>>> >>>> Yawn...this verbal spa >This is all I recieved from the post I sent. Pleeeeez tell me everyone else >got more of it. I received the whole of it, but only read to the spa part, got an itch for a great massage, then went to the spa. Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 19:39:24 -0700 From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: IQ Test Message-ID: <32FA95DC.2954@micron.net> Thoa, in an act of wanton cruelty, wrote: > HOW SMART ARE YOU? > > READ this sentence: > > FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE- > SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF- > IC STUDY COMBINED WITH > THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS. > > Now count aloud the F's in that sentence. Count them ONLY ONCE; do > not go back and count them again. > > ANSWER > > There are six F's in the sentence. One of average intelligence finds > three of them. If you spotted four, you're above average. If you got > five, you can turn your nose at most anybody. If you caught six, you > are a genius. There is no catch. I am nothing but a shell of an AVERAGE person now. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:01:14 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: IQ Test Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Thoa Tran wrote: > HOW SMART ARE YOU? > > READ this sentence: > > FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE- > SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF- > IC STUDY COMBINED WITH > THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS. > > Now count aloud the F's in that sentence. Count them ONLY ONCE; do > not go back and count them again. > > ANSWER > > There are six F's in the sentence. One of average intelligence finds > three of them. If you spotted four, you're above average. If you got > five, you can turn your nose at most anybody. If you caught six, you > are a genius. There is no catch. > Er ... I don't get it ... inished, iles, O, O, Scientiic, O. How is it possible not to find six? What's the trick? Are you trying to give the list an ego boost or something? puzzled, -JRC ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 00:35:01 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: A stone can change the path of a River Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970207063501.0068f2f4@mail.eden.com> Hi Many times the question arises as to how a single human being can affect the world. Here is an excerpt from a talk almost over 50 years ago. ..MKR ============= STONE MAY ALTER THE COURSE OF A RIVER Question: I had a son who was killed in this war. He did not want to die. He wanted to live and prevent this horror being repeated. Was it my fault that he as killed? Krishnamurti: It is the fault of every one of us that this present horror is going on. It is the outward result of our everyday inner life of greed, ill will, and lust, of competition, acquisitiveness, and specialized religion. It is the fault of everyone who, indulging in these, has created this terrible calamity. because we are nationalistic, singularistic, passionate, each one of us is contributing to this mass murder. You have been taught how to kill and how to die, but not how to live. If you wholeheartedly abhorred killing and violence in any form, then you would find ways and means to live peacefully and creatively. If that were your chief and primary interest, then you would search out very cause, every instinct that makes for violence, for hatred, for mass murder. Are you so wholeheartedly interested in stopping war? If you are then you must eradicate in yourself the causes of violence and killing for any reason whatsoever. If you wish to stop wars, then there must take place a deep, inner revolution of tolerance and compassion; then thought-feeling must free self from patriotism, from its identification with any group, from greed and those causes that breed enmity. A mother told me that to give up these things would not only be extremely difficult but also would mean great loneliness and utter isolation which she could not face. So was she not responsible for untold misery? You might agree with her, and so by your laziness, thoughtlessness, add fuel to the ever-increasing flames of war. If, on the contrary, you attempted seriously to eradicate the causes of enmity and violence in yourself, there would be peace and joy in our heart which would have immediate effect about you. We must reeducate ourselves not to murder, not to liquidate each other for any cause, however righteous it may appear to be for the future happiness of mankind or for an ideology however promising; not merely be educated technically which inevitably makes for ruthlessness, but to be content with little, to be compassionate and to seek the supreme. The prevention of this ever-increasing destruction and horror depends on each one of us, not on any organization or planning, not on any ideology, not on the inventions of greater instruments of destruction, not on any leader, but on each one of us. Do not think that wars cannot be stopped by so humble and lowly a beginning - a stone may alter the course of a river- to go far you must begin near. To understand the world chaos and misery, you must comprehend your own confusion and sorrow, for out of these come the magnified issues of the world. To understand yourself there must be constant meditative awareness which will bring to the surface the causes of violence and hate, greed and ambition, and by studying them without identification, thought will transcend them. For no one can lead you to peace save yourself; there is no leader, no system that can bring war, exploitation, oppression to an end save yourself. Only by your thoughtfulness, by your compassion, by your awakened understanding, can there be established goodwill and peace. July 16, 1944 - Ojai, Califomia ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 06:44:46 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Q's and ponderences Message-ID: <3308ccc8.15019460@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> The Triaist wrote: > Anyhow, blahblahblah, I don't see how you could consider me a sexist. Perception of sexism, like perception of beauty, is as much in the eye of the beholder as it is objective. Since charges of sexism are so freely and recklessly thrown around, unless they have an objective basis, I would laugh at them. >The really sad thing is that the last time I tried to make an example of the >equality that men and women share, I got a message saying "oh, boo hoo." >Perhaps compassion simply does not exist anymore in women or men. Women have been "abused." They therefore have the right to imitate their "abusers." >Chauvenists may be sexist, but don't examples like these just make >feminists hypocritical? >Which is worse? I wonder the same thing. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:56:32 -0600 (CST) From: cdgert@ripco.com (CDGertrude) Subject: Re: IQ Test Message-ID: > > Thoa, in an act of wanton cruelty, wrote: > > > HOW SMART ARE YOU? > > > > READ this sentence: > > > > FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE- > > SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF- > > IC STUDY COMBINED WITH > > THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS. > > > > Now count aloud the F's in that sentence. Count them ONLY ONCE; do > > not go back and count them again. > > > > ANSWER > > > > There are six F's in the sentence. One of average intelligence finds > > three of them. If you spotted four, you're above average. If you got > > five, you can turn your nose at most anybody. If you caught six, you > > are a genius. There is no catch. > > > I am nothing but a shell of an AVERAGE person now. > > > Kym > Where is 6? I can find five all day: finished files of of scientific of Nevermind....I can't count Gertrude the Churchmouse...scurrying back to Kindergarten to learn to count.-- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:00:05 -0600 (CST) From: cdgert@ripco.com (CDGertrude) Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: > > Ann, > > In a message dated 97-02-05 22:02:07 EST, you write: > > >It is a "holy place", as far as I'm concerned. But I haven't been anyplace > >where human beings ran a business or spiritual center that wasn't rife > >with soap opera at its core. As one of my former bosses' said to me, > >"Wouldn't life be great without people in it?" > > > >-AEB > > I have never found it so, but then that is not what I'm into so I wouldn't be > looking for holiness anywhere except in Swiss cheese. In any event, > Cosimano's First Law of Organizational Stuff states: > The closer one is to the center of power in any organization, the more > cynical one becomes about the organization. > > Chuck the Heretic > Hummmm....does that apply to a certain "book discussion" group? (g) Inquiring minds want to know Gerrtude...the power behind the throne -- From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:20:59 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB wrote: > > It's my experience that TS workers are not at all enviable of their > Work, at least not money-vise, and by reading the posts on this list, > their work doesn't seem much appreciated otherwise either. Of > course there are human problems inside the TS. In the management > of any society there are always traces of revelry, envy, jealousy, > etc. and it seems to be an "universal law" that those that never > won't do anything but talk, always know best how NOT to do > things! As others have said, I don't think anyone has complained about staff members ... it is the leadership that is taking heat. And some of the most vocal critics on this list are *not* those that just "talk", but those working in the field, running branches and study centers, that find themselves not only not being supported by HQ, but actually inhibited in their work. If you wish to (rightly) praise the efforts of underpaid staff members, it needs to also be mentioned that (at least in the US) the vast majority of TS activity is at the branch level, and not only do those people not receive any money, they often wind up spending their own on Lodge activities. > If you are so unhappy about your position within the theosophical > movement, as some of you seem to be, pick yourself a position or a > field of work, and make that however small field an example for > others to see. If you are really good at it, you will eventually end up > being a "lamp unto others". But don't go about it by digging shit > and throwing it on others, because then you will never get out of > the mud-pool yourself. Unfortunately, some of us *have* picked a field of work - let me give you an example .... Montana is a very sparsely populated, spread out state, and while there has been a TS presence since the 1930's, it goes in cycles of relative activity and relative quiet. The Montana Federation chair, Terry Wallace, myself, and three or four other met last month and decided that the tone was right, and wanted to re-activate activity in Montana ... to begin holding some public meetings, perhaps forming some study groups on specialized topics and etc. While we have been quite upset about the antics of the HQ clique, we still decided to operate within the ATS ... that is, any memberships generated by our activity would have been paid to Wheaton, etc., etc. To begin the activity we planned a mailing, we were going to inform all current members in Montana that we wanted to begin another cycle of public work, invite them to participate or contribute if they wished, or at least attend the meetings. We were going to pay for the mailing ourselves. To this end, Terry Wallace wrote a letter to Wheaton, as the Montana Federation President, requesting a list of Montana members. We just received the response. The National Secretary refused to give Terry the list, saying he hadn't heard of any activity by the Montana Federation and didn't (in essence) consider it to exist. The curious thing about this is that Terry receives mail from other Federations, and in fact from Wheaton itself, addressed to him in his role of Montana Federation President. Now please understand, Terry is a *long* time Theosophist, joined in India after a conversation with John Coats (the International President at the time); had been President of the Missoula (Montana) Branch for a decade, helped run (and fund) a Quest bookstore, held meetings in his home, spoke publically on behalf of Theosophy, put up, drove around, and fed travelling lecturers, etc., etc. Much of Theosophical activity in Montana during the last couple of decades would not have existed were it not for Terry's continual persevering energy. He is a life member. During part of this time, he was building a law practice as well as raising three children alone. More than that, I've seen him do a good deal of legal work pro bono - for poor folks he thought needed defending ... he conceives his profession to be a *spiritual* discipline, and quietly lives altruism at a level I've seen few match. In word and deed he is a *Theosophist*. He also, however, has been very critical of what the TS leadership has done over time - and in fact was going to represent Bing in a wrongful discharge case against Wheaton after that fiasco. He, as well as Sy (in Florida), both being attorneys, understand in perhaps too great a detail how crooked some of the HQ activities have been ... that they have broken their own by-laws, etc., etc. And so, the mystery of why Terry was refused a mailing list intended to spread Theosophy in Montana is solved. What will we do? Well, probably just organize activity ourselves ... leave (as increasing numbers are doing due to similar reasons) the ATS loop. Why should *we*, after expending a good deal of energy to organize and present public Theosophy, draw in newcomers & etc., *why* should we then give them membership forms - forms that would be sent, along with *money*, to a Headquarters that will not even give us a damn *list*? So please, don't assume the people "digging up shit" are those who only sit around and complain ... most of them on this list are those that are the opposite, tireless and consistant workers on behalf of Theosophy, who have committed the ultimate sin of thinking independetly of what the HQ clique believes Theosophy to be. They don't need to "dig up shit", they are usually just trying wipe themselves clean of what HQ throws at them whenever they try to actually get support for Theosophical activity. We are in an age of incredible freedom and dissemination of information. The leadership had better learn damn quick that the membership now needs them far less than they need the membership. Regards, -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 01:35:19 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Theosophical Tidbit Message-ID: <32FAF754.5B7D@withoutwalls.com> .Ll1L1. ,L lLLFEF, !L!LFEEEFEL ;F!EEBBFL1EL E. LFFFFEEL11EL EF F/LBBBEFLFFF E/, 1FFLLFEEEEE EEEE LLBBBBFFEBFF B.;1 FEBBBELFFF B/ EE EBBBBEEEE F ,FF BBBBBBE: BB 11FEEE11 EEE BB LlFFE; 1 LEB1 BE /lFFF! LEFF. FFBB LB::BEFFF!! BBL E, lF EBE E, EB! ;; FBB E, THEOSOPHICAL TIDBIT: E: ::E ,11LlLF1 BBBB E/ ANTS CAME FROM VENUS :EE EE ;LLLFEEEF FFE: /E /,,,FLL1LLFFFEEEEE B! FFF FFEEF::11L11L1FEEEEEEEBlBBE EFF: 1E !EE1l:111::lE..1L!!11LLFFFFFEEBEEEBBEEBBE;;11BBBBBE ;F F 1FFLL11FEELLLFEEFEBEFEBEBBB//EELL F Ll ;/ 11E1/L1LEFL1LFlEFFFE EBBE!F;.. 1E F !L FFFFFFEFEBELFFEEFFEEEE; EE /E!! F B1/FLF!EBEFELLFEEEEEB1 BB: /EF 1l FEEBFLL!FEEFFFLFEEE EF !! ll ,L!!!BEl1EEFLFEFLFF FF E L; ,LL EBBBF ;FF // E; /F :F. lEEBB 1/ L: .EF/ EE ;F :: ,! B/ :EEEE !F L11 FF B! E: :LFL, /l / ,. . , FF B/ .F E1 L/ EF F, E, FL /F E EEE ,E: EE B1 B1: References: Inner Life, Vol.2 CWL pg.368-369 Story of Atlantis and Lemuria - W.Scott-Elliot pg.36 From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 01:39:11 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: What is man that Thou art mindful of him? Message-ID: <32FAF83C.693D@withoutwalls.com> /. !BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB/ BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB, EBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBF BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB/ /LBBELL /FBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBE BBBBE1:lBBBBBB; LBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBB .BBB: ,BBBB/ BBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBB BBB //BBF BBBBBBBB/ BBBBBBBBB ,BBE :BBB, BBB BBB BBBBBBBE BBBBBB. 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BF lEBBB BB ,EBB BBBBBBBBBBBB; BBEL::::1BB1 BBBBBB: What is man that Thou art mindful of him? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 01:42:57 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: prefered response to too much logic Message-ID: <32FAF91E.52F6@withoutwalls.com> BBBBB BBBBBBBBB BB BBBBBBBBBB BBB BB BBBBB BB BB BB BBB BB BBB BBB BBBBB BBBBBBB BB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBB BBB BBB BB BBBBBB BBBBB BBB B BB BBBBB BBBBB BBBBBBB BBBBBBBB BBBB BBB B BBBBB BB BBBB BBBBBBBBBB BB BBBB BBB BBBBB BBBBBB BB BBB BBB BBBBB BB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BBB BBBBBBBB BBBBBBB BBB BB BB BBB BBBBBB BBB BBBBB BB BB BBB BBB BBBBB BBB BBBB BBBB BB BBB BBB BBBB BBBBBBBBBB BBBB BBBB BB BB B BB BBB BBBB BBB BBBBBB BB BBB BBBBBBB BB BB BB BB BBB BBB BBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBB BB BB BB BBB BBB BB BBBBBBBBB BBBBBB BBB BB BB BB B BBB BB BBBBB BBBBB BBB BBBBBBBBBB BB BBBBB BB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBB BBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBB BB BBBB B BBBBBB BBBBBB BBB BBBBBBBBBB B BB BBBB BBB BBBB BBB BBB BBBBBBBB BBBB BBBBBBBBBB BBB BBB BBBB BBB BBB BBBBB BB BBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B BB BBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BBBB BBB BBBB BBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB BBBBBB BBBBBBB B BB BBBBBB BBB BBBBBBB BBBBBBB BBBB BBB BBBBBBBBBB B BBBBBBBBB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBB BB BBBBB BB BBB BBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBB BB BBB BBB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBB BB BBBBBB BB BBB BB BBB BBBB BBBB BBB BB BBBBBBB BB BBB BB BBB BBBBB BBBBBB BBB BBB BBBBBB BB BB BB BBB BBBBBB BBBBBBB BB BB BBBBB BBBBB BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BB BBBB BBBB BBB BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBB BB BBBB BBB BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BB BBBB BBB BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BBBBBB BB BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BBBBB BBB BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BBBB BB BBB BBBBBBB BBBB BB BBB BB BB BB BBB BBBB BBB BB BBB BB BB BB BB BBB BBB BBBBBB BBB BB BBB BB BBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBB BB BBBB BB BBB BBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB BBBBBBB BBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBB BB BBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B BBBBBBBBBB B B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBB BB BBBBBBBBBBBB B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BB BBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB BBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBB BBBBBBBBB B BB B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBB BBBBBBBBB B BB B BBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBB BBBBBBBB B B BBBB B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BB B BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B BBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBB B B BBBB BBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBB B B B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBB BBBB B B BBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB B B B BBB BBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BB B B BB B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBB BB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BBB BBB BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B BB B BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB BB BBBBBBB BBBBBBBB B BBBBBBBBBBB B BBB BB B BBB BBB BBBBBBBBB BBB B B BBB B BBBBB BB B BBBB BBB B BBBB BB BBB B B B BB BB BB B B BBB B BBB B BB B BB B B BBB BB BB BBB BBB BB Sorry, I couldn't resist. It was just too much fun. ;-) Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri Feb 7 04:43:38 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: IQ Test Message-ID: <199702070943.EAA14206@envirolink.org> I always knew I was a smart carrot, however, carrots read everything backwards, which makes it much easier to count. neener neener. Moral: There are always little tricks to the stupicd genius quizzes. I took an IQ test and scored 178. However, I know that I am not really that intelligent. I don't pick up on things quite as fast as a true genius should. I just know how to manipulate. I guess that makes me a bad person. er...carrot. --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 10:22:50 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 888 Message-ID: >In exactly the same way, masculine and feminine are distinguishable, but inseparable. Pure femininity and pure masculinity exist in the abstract. How do you distinguish between two objects that are inseparable? I know from astronomy you can distinguish between two stars that seem to be inseparable, but how can you distinguish between abstract principles except by analogy or thought-forms which in turn lead to a clouding of the objects under analysis leading to incorrect conclusions. If pure femininity and pure masculinity "exist" on the abstract how does one prove they exist at all. Perhaps we only hope they exist because otherwise it would mean that we would see our separativeness as pure illusion which would disintegrate our ideas on individuality and consequently our personalities which most of us wrongly believe to be our own self expression.Many fear that possibility and so pretend that in fact duality is part of the description of objective reality. Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 11:32:37 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 888 Message-ID: >I would include emotional and mental, at least,in what I would call human. Do not the Devas have emotions and a thinking faculty? I am not sure. I believe that they do,but the devas are not "human". If you or anyone else work with them and know that they think and feel I would be most interested. I would say that a human being is a form which is a phenomenon of the Life. There are many myriads of forms, many of whom have an emotional and mental aspect but I would not necessarily call them human. To be classified a "human being" I think that you need to be able to identify with the form aspect.Whether humanity will still be human in that respect in other races/sub-races I cannot say. However, that said,it is only the appearance I have considered and it may be that the Rays that characterise the human kingdom on this particular planet we happen to call Earth may still work together in the way but produce a differing form. In which case, is the differing form still human? Again, I am unsure.Any ideas? Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 13:22:31 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 888 Message-ID: <32ff1aca.2483598@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Ben wrote: >Tom wrote: >>In exactly the same way, masculine and feminine are distinguishable, but >>inseparable. Pure femininity and pure masculinity exist only in the abstract. >How do you distinguish between two objects that are inseparable? This is the best explanation I have for how each individual has unique degrees of both. Since it is analogous to the theory, which makes sense to me, of how spirit and matter are distinguishable and inseparable, and that there are many other pairs of opposites which seems to relate to each other in the same way, I consider it more likely to be true. It is philosophically crucial to be able to distinguish between factors that are inseparable. The virtue of discrimination depends on it. For example, there are some people who claim that Nazis did not gas Jews during World War 2. The belief that millions of Jews were systematically exterminated arouses such strong feelings that anyone who even dares suggest this possibility is often branded, for no other reason, as an anti-Semite. I understand it is even illegal in France to make such a suggestion, at least in some forms. But the evaluation of such a policy and whether it happened or not, even though inseparable, are different questions. The search for truth depends on the ability to distinguish between them. It is entirely possible to as fully disapprove of it, if it happened, as anyone does, while questioning its historical accuracy. >I know from astronomy you can distinguish between two stars that seem to >be inseparable, but how can you distinguish between abstract principles >except by analogy or thought-forms which in turn lead to a clouding of the >objects under analysis leading to incorrect conclusions. It is more relevant to distinguishing between inseparable thoughts and feelings and inseparable mixtures of opposites, than it is of 2 seemingly inseparable physical objects. And it does just the opposite of clouding perception. Not distinguishing between inseparable factors is what leaves perception clouded. >If pure femininity and pure masculinity "exist" on the abstract how does one >prove they exist at all. By their existing purely only in the abstract, I meant that they always exist as mixtures in the concrete. >Perhaps we only hope they exist because otherwise it would mean that we >would see our separativeness as pure illusion which would >disintegrate our ideas on individuality and consequently our personalities >which most of us wrongly believe to be our own self expression. We are as much individuals as we are parts of greater wholes. >Many fear that >possibility and so pretend that in fact duality is part of the description >of objective reality. It seems to be a part of reality to me. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 13:22:37 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: IQ Test Message-ID: <3301230a.4595245@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> >Where is 6? >I can find five all day: finished files of of scientific of >Nevermind....I can't count >Gertrude the Churchmouse...scurrying back to Kindergarten to learn to >count.-- I looked at it several times, and only after reading your note including the "of's" did I see more than 3, and even then, I had to look several times to find 6. Is it different pronunciation that accounts for the difficulty? ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 13:22:41 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: A stone can change the path of a River Message-ID: <33022416.4863498@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> MKR wrote: >Hi > >Many times the question arises as to how a single human being can affect >the world. Here is an excerpt from a talk almost over 50 years ago. > >.. > >============= > >STONE MAY ALTER THE COURSE OF A RIVER > > >Question: > >I had a son who was killed in this war. He did not want to die. He wanted >to live and prevent this horror being repeated. Was it my fault that he as >killed? > >Krishnamurti: > >It is the fault of every one of us that this present horror is going on. It >is the outward result of our everyday inner life of greed, ill will, and >lust, of competition, acquisitiveness, and specialized religion. It is the >fault of everyone who, indulging in these, has created this terrible >calamity. because we are nationalistic, singularistic, passionate, each one >of us is contributing to this mass murder. I find it to be preposterous that those who wanted peace, but who were forced into a choice between war and being annihilated, were considered to be responsible for war. It is a travesty of justice to consider those who do not start wars to be as responsible as those who do. Peace will not come about by those who "love peace" not starting wars. They already don't, and we still have wars. It will come about by those who "love peace" deterring wars. Pacifism encourages war. >You have been taught how to kill >and how to die, but not how to live. I see no truth to that statement. >If you wholeheartedly abhorred killing >and violence in any form, then you would find ways and means to live >peacefully and creatively. You would also necessarily live hypocritically, since there is no way to survive without killing. A life of "harmlessness" is pure fiction. >If that were your chief and primary interest, >then you would search out very cause, every instinct that makes for >violence, for hatred, for mass murder. Are you so wholeheartedly interested >in stopping war? If you are then you must eradicate in yourself the causes >of violence and killing for any reason whatsoever. If you wish to stop >wars, then there must take place a deep, inner revolution of tolerance and >compassion; That's what Neville Chamberlain thought. >then thought-feeling must free self from patriotism, from its >identification with any group, from greed and those causes that breed >enmity. I can't imagine a recipe to make war more likely. Advanced souls do not have the choice of whether to live in a world of perfect peace or not. They only have the choice of how to respond to other greedy people. Jesus said "a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough." The fewer freeloaders there are, the more profitable it is to freeload. Those who encourage it by preaching pure cooperation are partly responsible for it. >We must reeducate ourselves not to murder, not to liquidate each other for >any cause Even the cause of preventing others from murdering? He was speaking to the wrong audience. These are futile words. >not merely be educated >technically which inevitably makes for ruthlessness Capacity for goodness depends on technological advancement. He is blaming the wrong culprit. >The prevention of this ever-increasing destruction and horror depends on >each one of us, not on any organization or planning, not on any ideology, >not on the inventions of greater instruments of destruction It was the atomic bomb that ended it. >Only by your >thoughtfulness, by your compassion, by your awakened understanding, can >there be established goodwill and peace. > >July 16, 1944 - Ojai, Califomia He's got half of the saying "speak softly and carry a big stick" right. His solution is too simplistic. Competition is too inherent to eradicate and too necessary for evolution for its eradication to be an improvement. A balance between cooperation and competition, not pure cooperation, is the ideal. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 15:30:40 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [inseparables] Message-ID: Tom, Just for me to get an idea of an inseparable thought do you mean for example in the idea of "a black cat" you try to separate the idea of "black", and the idea of "a cat"?If black has no definition which is relative to anything other than a cat how could you go about separating them?Likewise, since "femininity" has no relations, as far as I know, other to the idea of "masculinity" how could you discriminate between the two? Could you give me an example of a separate feeling? If something is inseparable from something else, how can it and/or why must it be an opposite? Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 09:47:35 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970207154735.0072c944@mail.eden.com> At 02:22 AM 2/7/97 -0500, JRC wrote: >going to pay for the mailing ourselves. To this end, >Terry Wallace wrote a letter to Wheaton, as the Montana Federation >President, requesting a list of Montana members. We just received the >response. The National Secretary refused to give Terry the list, saying >he hadn't heard of any activity by the Montana Federation and didn't (in >essence) consider it to exist. The curious thing about this is that Terry >receives mail from other Federations, and in fact from Wheaton itself, >addressed to him in his role of Montana Federation President. Very interesting. Did at any time in the past, any responsible officer from Wheaton write or call any Lodge President/Secretary, Federation President/Secretary to find out why there is a drop in the activity and inquire if there is something that Wheaton could help, (not necessarily monetary handout)? Did any responsible officer from Wheaton try to find out what you guys are trying to do to improve activities in Montana? When was it that any National Officer last visited Montana in connection with TS matters? When I do not hear from my friends relatives or customers/clients, I usually try to contact them and find out what is going on and if there is some way I can offer help or assistance or advise? Usually, there is always some reason or circumstance that I am able to provide some feedback or advise or assistance. I am just using a novice's common sense and trying to learn what is going on. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 09:54:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970207155424.0075955c@mail.eden.com> At 02:22 AM 2/7/97 -0500, JRC wrote: >staff members ... it is the leadership that is taking heat. And some of Again we are seeing the power of Internet. The leadership which had sole control of the AT Magazine, the sole means of communicating with members, over 100 years have used it only to let members know of information that makes them good. But for Internet, and John E Mead's foresight in setting up theos-xxx, no one outside Montana lodge would have known what is going on in the matter. Do you know it was with great difficulty I found theos-l? Let light shine brighly and chips fall where they may. Truth will always triumph. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:01:53 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Alert! Message-ID: Greetings ... FYI - Received this from a friend on another list -JRC ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Here's a call for action that's worth all our efforts! I have to say that occasionally when I've seen something like this it's been a hoax, but in this case I don't want to take the chance that it's NOT for real ... can't hurt the FCC to hear about how we feel about this, no matter what, so I'd encourage you to post some kind of comment before February 13th, which is less than a week off. <:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:> Yesterday I got a notice from the Computer User's Group that most of the phone companies are petitioning the FCC to impose a per-minute charge for internet use. Guesstimates range from 4-5 cents per minute for the large companies up to 40 cents for the smaller ones. They contend that internet usage has/will hinder operation of the telephone network. The FCC has set up an email box for comments -- all replies must be in by Feb. 13. The address is isp@fcc.gov. You'll notice the public hasn't been told about this -- the Computer User's Group requested help in spreading the word so we'll have a chance to express our opinions. With the number of computers in the U.S, increasing daily, a monthly charge of $1 would provide a healthy amount. Those prices are outrageous!! And it would certainly bring to a screeching halt the current spread of computer technology and commercial use to the general public. PLEASE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW! AND SEND YOUR RESPONSES TO THE FCC AT: isp@fcc.gov. <:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:>:<:><:><:><:><:><:><:> From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:56:55 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <9702071956.AA22579@toto.csustan.edu> On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB wrote: > > It's my experience that TS workers are not at all enviable of > their Work, at least not money-vise, and by reading the posts > on this list, their work doesn't seem much appreciated > otherwise either. JHE No, workers are not appreciated. As a person who for twenty years devoted almost every non wage earning hour to working for Theosophy, and spending every dollar not needed to live towards this end, I would say that the least appreciation came from the TS leadership. Rather, I often found my efforts criticized and undermined, and myself often co-opted. EA > Of course there are human problems inside the TS. In the > management of any society there are always traces of revelry, > envy, jealousy, etc. and it seems to be an "universal law" that > those that never won't do anything but talk, always know best > how NOT to do things! JHE Perhaps there are traces of rivalry, envy and jealousy, etc. among the management, and this may be the source of the problem. But I think more positive progress would be accomplished if an effort were made to fix the problem rather than excuse them for it. There may indeed be a "`universal law' that those that never won't so anything but talk, always know best how NOT to do things" but I never experienced such people to be the problem. Rather, they occasionally come up with good ideas. And occasionally, one can motivate them to action. EA > If you are so unhappy about your position within the > theosophical movement, as some of you seem to be, pick yourself > a position or a field of work, and make that however small > field an example for others to see. If you are really good at > it, you will eventually end up being a "lamp unto others". But > don't go about it by digging shit and throwing it on others, > because then you will never get out of the mud-pool yourself. JHE After years of backbiting and undermining of our efforts by the TS leadership, we moved to another town and formed study groups of our own that are independent of any Theosophical Organization. It is a good feeling to find that we are able to continue teaching Theosophy without having to depend upon the TS and without being undermined or co-opted by them. Our study groups are psychologically healthier for not having to deal with TS politics and history--two subjects we never discuss. I would say that since my wife and I began to work independently, our efforts have been more fruitful than ever. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:28:52 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: IQ Test Message-ID: <199702072121.QAA13756@newman.concentric.net> > From: Thoa Tran > > HOW SMART ARE YOU? > > READ this sentence: > > FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE- > SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF- > IC STUDY COMBINED WITH > THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS. > > Now count aloud the F's in that sentence. Count them ONLY ONCE; do > not go back and count them again. > > ANSWER > > There are six F's in the sentence. One of average intelligence finds > three of them. If you spotted four, you're above average. If you got > five, you can turn your nose at most anybody. If you caught six, you > are a genius. There is no catch. Where are the other three hiding? Behind a carrot? -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:27:08 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: A.R.E. and cults Message-ID: <199702072121.QAA13800@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: K. Paul Johnson > > > > "Why A.R.E. Is Not a Cult" by Herbert Bruce Puryear > > > > When some of our members join A.R.E., their friends or families become > > greatly concerned that they have joined a cult. However, when A.R.E.'s > > teachings are measured by textbook criteria of what constitutes a cult, it > > is found that we fit none of them. > > > > Here are some reasons that A.R.E. is _not_ a cult: > > > > * We encourage you to work in your own personally preferred church or > > religious organization. If it comes to a choice between A.R.E. and your > > church, stay with your church. > > > > * We do not encourage you to "identify with" A.R.E. Identify with the > > Christ principle. > > > > * We do not sponsor any one person's ideas or point of view but, through > > our speakers and books, present differing points of view for the > > consideration of the seeker. > > > > * We do not encourage you to be guided by dogma or an authoritative > > external source but rather by the living Spirit within yourself. > > > > * We claim no special revelation. There is nothing "new" here that may > > not be found in other studies. Cayce said of his own work that he did > > nothing that we could not do. > > > > * We encourage comparative study, not just the study of one source or > > perspective. > > > > * We encourage application of what one knows rather than dogmatism about > > what others would have you believe. > > > > * Membership in A.R.E. is based upon a wish to work with this information > > and support this work -- not upon agreeing to a dogma or belief system. > > ********* > > This was posted to a list I participate in, and I thought it > relevant to the situation of Theosophy today. All these things > could have been honestly said about the early TS by HPB and > Olcott; none of them would ring very true today from any of the > Theosophical organizations, although many individual lodges > still adhere to these principles. Much of what has been said > recently about the Krishnamurti experience explains why the > organizations now give only lip service to these ideals. This > leaves me wondering if there are any signs of hope in any of > the organizations today. Surely they cannot stay stuck in the > first half of the 20th century forever? Maybe I just haven't been around long enough, but I don't quite catch what you're saying. I definitely agree that during the frenzy of the Krishnamurti/World Teacher period, TS looked like it was turning into a cult. Can you clarify how your cult list applies to current activities and policies in TS organizations? -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 00:32:02 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Abramelin Message-ID: Offers invited from interested parties: ~The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abra-Melin the Mage~ tr. S.L.MacGregor Mathers London, John M. Watkins 1956 *Limited edition of 500 copies.* Condition sound but grubby. Contains a single sheet of pencilled notes by someone who appears to have compared it with the original Heb. or French ms. translation. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 00:07:38 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <3MfbACAKP8+yEwme@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message , JRC writes >And so, the mystery of why Terry was refused a mailing list >intended to spread Theosophy in Montana is solved. What will we do? >Well, probably just organize activity ourselves ... leave (as increasing >numbers are doing due to similar reasons) the ATS loop. Why should *we*, >after expending a good deal of energy to organize and present public >Theosophy, draw in newcomers & etc., *why* should we then give them >membership forms - forms that would be sent, along with *money*, to a >Headquarters that will not even give us a damn *list*? The Theosophy International membership list is posted on a more or less regular basis to the TI-L list. Membership is free, and people do not need to be on a computer network to join (though most at present are). It would be nice to see this idea spreading in non-computer circles, among non-computer people. Just a recurring thought ... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 17:44:09 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: War Message-ID: <199702080144.RAA03222@palrel1.hp.com> MKR quoted: >> Krishnamurti: >> >> It is the fault of every one of us that this present horror is going on. It >> is the outward result of our everyday inner life of greed, ill will, and >> lust, of competition, acquisitiveness, and specialized religion. It is the >> fault of everyone who, indulging in these, has created this terrible >> calamity. because we are nationalistic, singularistic, passionate, each one >> of us is contributing to this mass murder. And Tom replied: > I find it to be preposterous that those who wanted peace, but who were > forced into a choice between war and being annihilated, were > considered to be responsible for war. It is a travesty of justice to > consider those who do not start wars to be as responsible as those who > do. Peace will not come about by those who "love peace" not starting > wars. They already don't, and we still have wars. It will come about > by those who "love peace" deterring wars. Pacifism encourages war. Age old debates. Krishna and Arjuna again. Certainly with the case of WW II, going to war seemed to be the only way to bring about peace. I would not criticize those who fought for my freedoms. On the contrary, I'm very grateful for them and find their contributions sadly necessary. But I don't think I would view it as MY calling to serve the cause of peace in combat. I might have gone onto the battlefield to serve in, say, a medical capacity. In that way I would be taking the same risks as others and also giving assistance in a non-violent way. War, it seems to me, is justifiable if the archetype of a nation is at stake. In fighting in such a war, one's inner state should be without hate. Jeanne d'Arc, who I regard as a saint, followed the dictates of her voices to preserve the archetype of France by means of war. She also grieved terribly over the English soldiers that were killed and took no joy at their losing their lives. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:47:47 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: The QUEST Will Drive You Mad, K. Paul Johnson Message-ID: <970207180823_205490551@emout11.mail.aol.com> Item of Information: The most recent QUEST reviews Daniel H. Caldwell's ~K. Paul Johnson's HOUSE OF CARDS~. Maybe they did, but I don't remember THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST or QUEST previously reviewing "monographs" (43 pages, in this case), and since they give information about its purchase ($6.50 etc.), it amounts to a nice little classified advertisement for a certain point of view. The "review" leaves off with these impartial words from Daniel: ". . . Johnson's conjectures on these two Masters are highly implausible and dubious when carefully scrutinized in the light of all the known facts." Maybe Paul should bundle all his rejoinders and see if the QUEST will help him try to sell the Xerox product for $5.99. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 20:56:05 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <970207145716_205467691@emout05.mail.aol.com> Gertrude, >Hummmm....does that apply to a certain "book discussion" group? (g) Inquiring minds want to know Gerrtude...the power behind the throne -- That more than any other. And does the throne admit to you being a power? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:23:24 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: The QUEST Will Drive You Mad, K. Paul Johnson Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 RIhle@aol.com wrote: > Item of Information: > > The most recent QUEST reviews Daniel H. Caldwell's ~K. Paul Johnson's HOUSE > OF CARDS~. > Wow! They actually reviewed a review? Wait! What's that rustling? Oh, I see, look over there ... the last stitch of the Emperor's clothes appears to have dropped to the floor. Eeeeewwwwww. What a way gross sight. (-:), -JRC ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 03:23:56 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: [inseparables] Message-ID: <32fce1aa.4209891@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Ben wrote: >Tom, > >Just for me to get an idea of an inseparable thought do you mean for >example in the idea of "a black cat" you try to separate the idea of "black", >and the idea of "a cat"? That could be an example. Someone who could not distinguish between his or her feelings about black and his or her feelings about cats might see a black cat, feel a certain way about it because of its color, and conclude that he or she felt that way about cats. >since "femininity" has no relations, as far as I know, other to the idea of >"masculinity" how could you discriminate between the two? We were discussing the possible definition of the word "good" in a newsgroup once, and I said that it was simply the opposite of bad, bad being the opposite of good. Someone responded and said that jdfhghk was the opposite of wjrkfhk, and vice versa, and that now I could now know what jdfhghk and wjrkfhk mean. His point was that, even though words are defined in terms of other words, their meanings are intuitively grasped, by observation. The meanings of words and their definitions are different. Masculinity and femininity can both be observed, distinctly from each other, and defined as the opposites of each other. >Could you give me an example of a separate feeling? I can't think of a feeling that can be separated either from thought or from the physical. But it is crucial to be able to distinguish between the physical, feelings, and thoughts. Someone once told me that she thought that emotions are physical. I asked her what color anger was, and she said green! >If something is inseparable from something else, how can it and/or why >must it be an opposite? Many opposites cannot exist independently of each other, but that does not mean that all two things that are inseparable from each other are opposites. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:23:31 -0600 (CST) From: cdgert@ripco.com (CDGertrude) Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: Of course not!!! Therein lies my secret!] -- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri Feb 7 23:24:24 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: IQ Test Message-ID: <199702080424.XAA00704@envirolink.org> Tom Robertson writes: >>Where is 6? >>I can find five all day: finished files of of scientific of >>Nevermind....I can't count >>Gertrude the Churchmouse...scurrying back to Kindergarten to learn to >>count.-- >I looked at it several times, and only after reading your note >including the "of's" did I see more than 3, and even then, I had to >look several times to find 6. Is it different pronunciation that >accounts for the difficulty? I believe it has something to do with the fact that the word "of" is so often used that it is consciously ignored. A good experiment would be to ask a four year old child to read the message and count the f's, for a four year old child has not yet habitualized his/herself with certain words. --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:26:32 -0600 (CST) From: cdgert@ripco.com (CDGertrude) Subject: Re: War Message-ID: > > MKR quoted: > > >> Krishnamurti: > >> > >> It is the fault of every one of us that this present horror is going on. It > >> is the outward result of our everyday inner life of greed, ill will, and > >> lust, of competition, acquisitiveness, and specialized religion. It is the > >> fault of everyone who, indulging in these, has created this terrible > >> calamity. because we are nationalistic, singularistic, passionate, each one > >> of us is contributing to this mass murder. > > And Tom replied: > > > I find it to be preposterous that those who wanted peace, but who were > > forced into a choice between war and being annihilated, were > > considered to be responsible for war. It is a travesty of justice to > > consider those who do not start wars to be as responsible as those who > > do. Peace will not come about by those who "love peace" not starting > > wars. They already don't, and we still have wars. It will come about > > by those who "love peace" deterring wars. Pacifism encourages war. > > Age old debates. Krishna and Arjuna again. > > Certainly with the case of WW II, going to war seemed to be the only way to > bring about peace. I would not criticize those who fought for my freedoms. On > the contrary, I'm very grateful for them and find their contributions sadly > necessary. But I don't think I would view it as MY calling to serve the cause > of peace in combat. I might have gone onto the battlefield to serve in, say, a > medical capacity. In that way I would be taking the same risks as others and > also giving assistance in a non-violent way. > > War, it seems to me, is justifiable if the archetype of a nation is at > stake. In fighting in such a war, one's inner state should be without hate. > Jeanne d'Arc, who I regard as a saint, followed the dictates of her voices to > preserve the archetype of France by means of war. She also grieved terribly > over the English soldiers that were killed and took no joy at their > losing their lives. > Pacifism does NOT encourage war. War is never justifiable. Gertrude--the strongly pacifistic- Churchmouse -- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:31:58 -0600 (CST) From: cdgert@ripco.com (CDGertrude) Subject: Re: IQ Test Message-ID: > > ---------- > > From: Thoa Tran > > > > HOW SMART ARE YOU? > > > > READ this sentence: > > > > FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE- > > SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF- > > IC STUDY COMBINED WITH > > THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS. > > > > Now count aloud the F's in that sentence. Count them ONLY ONCE; do > > not go back and count them again. > > > > ANSWER > > > > There are six F's in the sentence. One of average intelligence finds > > three of them. If you spotted four, you're above average. If you got > > five, you can turn your nose at most anybody. If you caught six, you > > are a genius. There is no catch. > > Where are the other three hiding? Behind a carrot? > > -AEB > > > > Handing Ann a carrot..helps develop night vision -- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri Feb 7 23:36:40 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Guardian Angels Message-ID: <199702080436.XAA01402@envirolink.org> I've noticed that several religions, have "guardian angels" written into their systems. Are they supported by Theosophy? (Generally, not with respect to specific authors) I thought perhaps theses conceptions were derived from the monadic theory, but the more I learn about monads, the more they seem to be involved with Forces, not individuals. --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 23:21:39 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Theosophy and Business Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970208052139.00679740@mail.eden.com> Hi I ran across a very interesting writeup on the subject. Here is an excerpt. Hope some of you will enjoy reading it. MKR =============== THEOSOPHY IN BUSINESS by CJ There is an idea largely prevalent in the world among religious people that business activities are incompatible with a truly religious life. This has been due to the peculiar conception of life which certain exponents of religion have given to their followers. We know how to-day people think of " religious" interest and " secular" interests, and there is a tacit recognition that they must be opposed, or, if not actually in opposition, at least mutually exclusive. This conception arises from an exaggeration in religions of the thought of the Transcendence of God; the Creator, having once created His world, is thought of as living in some sphere removed in space from that world, and as merely supervising it. In this religious conception, man, as the creature of God, has only the duty of pleasing his Maker so as to make secure his own salvation. I well remember a sermon which I heard once in a Christian Church on the duty of man to God; this duty was described as composed of the three virtues of humility, gratitude and obedience. The preacher insisted upon the subservience of the soul of man to God as a pre-requisite to a religious life. It was evident that according to him the ordinary activities of life in the home, in business, and in amusements, counted for very little with God, and that man was judged according to certain theological virtues which he had or had not acquired. This extreme Christian conception of the old problems of man's everyday life is very vividly summed up in the verse of a hymn which was sung by the congregation on this particular day of the sermon; the verse is this: I am going home in the good old way, I have served the world with its worthless pay, For its hopes are vain and its gains are loss, And I glory now in the blood-stained Cross. Here we have very clearly the thought that the multifarious activities of the world have no special use in the spiritual growth of man, and that what we gain of capacity and growth outside the strictly religious sphere is but " worthless pay ". Wherever in a religion we have the idea of renunciation and asceticism, there usually develops this idea of the uselessness of life in the world. The natural consequence of the division of life into secular and religious is the creation of two moralities which have often little relation to each other; the religious man will consider that it is perfectly legitimate to be selfish, savage and unspiritual in his business dealings with a fellow man, whom he will try to love as a " neighbour " in his religious relation towards him; a deeply religious man, both tender-hearted and kind in one part of his nature, yet will possess another part of savagery and resentment, and will see no reason why this latter phase of himself should be modified at the cost of business gain. A fraudulent but pious milkman, who will water his milk on weekdays with perfect nonchalance, will do it on Sunday too, with his pious Sunday face, and then go to church and revel in his religion! Now Theosophy abolishes these two moralities in the world of business, by showing that the business world is as much a part of God's world as temples and churches. It is One Life which is manifesting through all the activities of men, and all the activities which have been developed in civilization are necessary in the Divine Plan. God's plan for the salvation of humanity works not only through individual men, but also through men as groups. Men's natures must be grown emotionally, mentally and spiritually, and one cause of this growth is their collective activity in various organizations. In the collective life of humanity, various types of divine agents are required to carry out His purpose; the ruler and the lawgiver, the fighter, the teacher, the priest, the healer, the artist, are all required to play their roles as actors in the Divine Drama of life; but not less of a divine actor is the business man. Now the man to whom business is one of his principal obligations comes as a soul into life with as much a spiritual purpose as the man who is the priest; that purpose is to equip himself as a soul for activities everywhere and in all time. He does not come to gain wealth or ease, but capacity; his soul is put into a business life, rather than into one of religion or art, because he can learn such soul qualities as he next requires for his growth more swiftly in the business world than any other sphere. The sterling virtues which are learned in business are fundamentally spiritual; no man can be a successful business man unless he is one-pointed, unless he is quick to respond to opportunities, unit less he grows in imagination. These are not " secular " virtues because they are developed in what we hold to be secular activities; they are capacities which are built into the life of the soul. Certainly we find that a large number of business men, highly endowed with these qualities, are selfish, cruel and hard, but this does not mean that the virtues are useless, because the possessors of them lack other virtues. When we remember that a mark lives many lives, and that once he acquires a capacity he never loses it, we shall then understand how, after a business man has developed these virtues in one life (even though it has meant the development at the same time of selfishness), in a future life, when his vision is cleared and he begins to be altruistic, he will still have this marked ability when he turns to his work in altruism. In the evolution of humanity the faculties of all men, good and bad, are used; " blindly the wicked work the righteous will of heaven ". The world's lands are habitable to-day only because a few pioneers originally went out into the deserts and forests and made them habitable; they may have gone out purely for selfish purposes, but nevertheless they were used as the agents of a Divine Plan. Men may go out as pioneers into new lands to gain wealth for themselves; but we know that such a life requires heroism, sacrifice, doggedness, strength, and these virtues become permanent acquisitions of the soul. In the same way, to-day, in the " trust magnates " and " beef barons " of America and elsewhere, we have manifestly great capacity together with much selfishness and lust for power; but they are building up more efficient ideas of business, and so are helping in the Divine Plan. As for their selfishness, that will be purified out of them through suffering in future lives; and when after that purification they gain a true perspective of life, they will have with them the strong virtues which they developed through their greed and selfishness, and they will then be far more efficient on the side of good than many another who may have been good and pious but had acquired little capacity. The practical message of Theosophy to the business man is that he should identify himself with the higher possibilities and motives in business, and not with the lower. What the former are, we can see if we look at the various stages of development in business capacity which men show. In the earliest stage of commercial life, we have mere greed, and the man is all the time thinking of his private interests and gloating over them as his particular possessions. In the second stage, the element of greed is mastered by the mental element of business routine, and the individual becomes practically the slave of business, busying himself continually with all kinds of activities in business, not always because of the profits involved, but largely because these activities give him the sense of vitality and reality. In the third stage of growth, the business man is conscious of himself as the great master of capacity, and is far more conscious of this power as he exercises it than of the gain it brings; he is often most unselfish about individuals and most ascetic in his private life, though of course he will manifest the acme of selfishness in his utter one-pointedness in the exercise of this power. But then will inevitably come the last stage, when, in the exercise of his master-capacity, he sees what are the honourable lines of activity for him as a guardian of divine energies. The Theosophical business man should always aim at idealism in his profession; and this is quite compatible, even to-day, in spite of all the obstacles in his way. The first characteristic of this idealism should be the holding of a high conception of his business as a noble contribution to human welfare, and with this a keen desire to bring it to a high state of perfection. He will, therefore, be thoroughly efficient not only in his own line, but he will try to join with others in associations, so as to uphold the ideal. Much has yet to be done in bringing business men together into organizations, not merely for private interests, as in Trusts, but to discuss the fundamentally' efficient principles involved in business. Into the hands of business men the Divine Plan entrusts the development of one aspect -of the world's work, and it is their duty to see that their work is done with as little waste of time and energy as possible. Something has been done so far in standardizing tools and machinery; much more needs to be done along this line, so that there may be throughout the world facilities for the mutual development of inventions and processes. It is from the business men of the world to-day that we expect the practical carrying out of the great ideals of Internationalism; while religious teachers may expound Universal Brotherhood, the practical foundations for it must be laid by the business men of the world. The Theosophical business man must always remember that the world's development is part of a, great Plan, and " big men " in all departments of life are employed to carry out the Divine work. For instance, just now there are great changes place in the business world in bringing about great combinations; we known how ruthless such Trusts are and how they push to the wall the small merchant. Yet we see at the same time the slow transformation of material development from the work of a few for their own gain to the work of a great national department for the welfare of all. It is because of the plans of business development laid, down by such combinations that one day, when spirituality and not greed controls such Trusts, we shall be able utterly to abolish poverty. Every invention that has made life easier for men is a realization of the thought of God, and an inventor is not less a God's priest than is a priest of religion. All men are channels of one great Divine Force and as it runs through them they retain it for themselves, some more and some less; and most do not understand the duty they have of transmuting that Force into the least little activity of life. If the business man were to recognize this principle, he would then realize how much of a builder he is in the divine edifice of human life. Did not Christ say: "I must be about my Father's business ? " The great Father lives mysteriously in our world - as ruler and lawgiver, healer and priest; but He lives, too, strange as it may seen, as the " business man ". This is the high aspect of business which Theosophy shows, and the man or woman, whose Dharma or Duty is business, can bring a high spirituality to all work in shop and in office, in factory and in counting-house, doing all as a part of " my Father's business ". From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 00:33:10 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Compensation worldwide Message-ID: <970207150154_1079306160@emout07.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-07 10:56:14 EST, you write: > > Let light shine brighly and chips fall where they may. But we don't want the chips to fall because then the computer won't work. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 02:30:56 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: desires Message-ID: <970207145108_683308708@emout16.mail.aol.com> With hard work, standing on one's head for forty years, staring at the sun without blinking and eating lots of broccoli one may eliminate sexual desire, along with any contact with reality or semblance of sanity. But who in his or her right mind would want to? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 01:14:37 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Senzar Key Message-ID: <32FC43BC.B9D@withoutwalls.com> Once a Carrot wrote: >I've noticed that several religions, have "guardian angels" written into their >systems. Are they supported by Theosophy? (Generally, not with respect to >specific authors) I thought perhaps theses conceptions were derived from the >monadic theory, but the more I learn about monads, the more they seem to be >involved with Forces, not individuals. Here's a key: . That about which naught can be said X X X X X X X X X X Impersonal Impersonality X X X X X X X X X X X X Impersonal Personality -| X X X X | X X |-- (Here's where you might look) X X X X | X X X X X X Personal Impersonality -| X X X X X X X X Personal Personality X X X X X X X X -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat Feb 8 07:27:52 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: Senzar Key Message-ID: <199702081227.HAA22307@envirolink.org> Mark Kusek writes: >Once a Carrot wrote: > >>I've noticed that several religions, have "guardian angels" written into >>their systems. Are they supported by Theosophy? (Generally, not with >>respect to specific authors) I thought perhaps theses conceptions were >>derived from the monadic theory, but the more I learn about monads, the >>more they seem to be involved with Forces, not individuals. > >Here's a key: > . That about which naught can be said > X >X X X X X X Impersonal Personality -| > X X X X | > X X |-- (Here's where you might >look) > X X X X | >X X X X X X Personal Impersonality -| > X I'm not sure I understand. Could you explain without saying it again? Maybe a few more pictures would help... Carrots are slow at this. --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 12:07:37 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: War Message-ID: <199702082007.MAA15922@palrel1.hp.com> cdgert@ripco.com (CDGertrude) wrote: > Pacifism does NOT encourage war. War is never justifiable. > Gertrude--the strongly pacifistic- Churchmouse Beware of "nevers". Life is seldom so simple that we are presented with one choice that is wholly good and another choice that is wholly evil. Earlier bad karma can place us in positions where we have to choose the lesser of two evils. War is a case of karma coming for payment. What is the best way to deal with karma like that? When a nation's people have collectively dug themselves into a hole, it is not always an easy choice as to how to get out. Apart from the case, already alluded to, of Hitler marching over country after country, there are many others. Abraham Lincoln had to face difficult choices. He had to choose between the probable dissolution of the country - or war. Imagine what you would do with a man threatening the lives of you and your children. Fortunately, your karma has placed you there. But what if? ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:30:20 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: The future of the TS Message-ID: <199702090130.MAA22728@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> I have been lurking on this list for a while and have smelled some discontent with the TS in the air, but haven't seen it openly addressed. I apologise before hand, if raising an issue specific to the current TS is out of order. Please hit your trash button now if you are tired of TS politics. I also apologise for the length. I have enlisted in the Theos-buds group hoping to see some discussion about the future of the TS there, but have not received any mail from that group to date. Is it active? I have been a member of a TS lodge for around 10 years. I have visited several others across two countries. (I am also a member of AMORC and am active in many New Age forums.) Over those ten years I have seen the society decline into bigotry and fear. I have seen it (locally) alienate any newcomers who have arrived, particularly the young and enthusiastic. I have seen the average age go up until I am just a "young thing" (which would be great under any other circumstances). I have seen behaviour which would make the corporate world blush. I have seen politics which could teach even the most corrupt politicians something. I have seen victimisation and brutality which would make the US police force gasp, and dare I say it, occult activity which would make a black coven grin with delight. I have seen active sexism, racism and ageism which would not be tolerated anywhere else. Our local Lodge is losing membership at the rate of 20-30 a year and has been losing membership for at least as long as I have been getting annual reports. We have gone from over 400ish when I joined to 280ish at present. On the other hand I have seen very little "service", very little kindness, very little nurturing. I have seen very few people attempting to become self aware and work on themselves and I have seen very little of any form of applied spirituality (whatever that may mean). Those who are interested in such a focus tend not to stay in the organisation, either retreating from active membership, leaving in dismay or being driven out. ( I stress that I am speaking locally and am not attacking any individual.) To attempt to redress this I have roused our local membership to form a network - without official sanction or approval - to look into a vision for the future both for our local Lodge and for Theosophy (as it affects our local Lodge) generally. Our starting position is that the TS structure and its manner of addressing spiritual issues are outmoded, and that the organisation will collapse if it continues to refuse to change to suit the times. We have committed to retaining a positive focus for our group and we are not permitting any politics in relation to the current management. We have created several subgroups to look at aspects of management of a TS Lodge, (physical facilities, management structure, teachings and activities, public relations, ethics, and service). However, I have found myself weighted down by the lack of real enthusiasm and vision of most of the remaining members of the Lodge (despite their words to the contrary), and by their unusually high levels of negativity and fear. Most of the good young talent has already left. Any suggestion is seen as too radical (such radical stuff as changing the tea room hours). For my efforts I have been slandered, vilified, and ridiculed by the office bearers and others, with all manner of gossip now flying around to try to destroy my credibility. I knew all of this would happen before I started, but I suppose I just wanted to see how far I could go before it all wore me down, and whether my efforts would lure any remaining beauty or grace in the organisation out of hiding. So what I want to know is this. Are there any similar groups or movements within the TS worldwide attempting to do anything similar? What has been done before along these lines, who can I hook up with to keep my morale up while I attempt this monumental feat? Are there others who would like to build on what we have started, or can we borrow from others? Are their any members of the hierarchy anywhere in the world who want to see change? Are they willing to work with local individuals and groups to help achieve it? Or is it all doomed? I quote from Chuck the Heretic >On the other hand, I have derived some comfort from the belief that an >organization that could survive such a collection of lunatics, scoundrels and >sundry morons must have some great, intrinsic merit to keep it going. Please tell me what its intrinsic merit is? I quote from AEB >Essentially, Wood was saying that TS had turned into a soap opera. and then Alan >Which it remained. And a very vicious one at that! Give me "Neighbours" any day. I quote from Einar >It's my experience that TS workers are not at all enviable of their >Work, at least not money-vise, and by reading the posts on this list, >their work doesn't seem much appreciated otherwise either. Of >course there are human problems inside the TS. In the management >of any society there are always traces of revelry, envy, jealousy, >etc. and it seems to be an "universal law" that those that never >won't do anything but talk, always know best how NOT to do >things! There are many who have come through our Lodge at various times who would have loved to contribute, but were only allowed to do so if they made themselves subservient clones of the incumbent power group. Very few see any value in doing this. Please do not forget that Hitler worked very hard and was totally devoted to his cause, fully believing that he was under divine guidance, but did it make his actions "right"? I am glad that the organisation is healthy in at least one country - this is good news. It may mean that the egregore is not totally corrupt. If our groups actually manage to keep going, I will certainly ask you some questions about your local organisation, so that we can learn from your success. I quote from Einar again >If you are so unhappy about your position within the theosophical >movement, as some of you seem to be, pick yourself a position or a >field of work, and make that however small field an example for >others to see. If you are really good at it, you will eventually end up >being a "lamp unto others". And Einar, tell me that it worth the monumental effort of doing this WITHIN the TS when no amount of personal light seems to be enough and when effort may be potentiallybetter spent elsewhere. Somone else wrote (sorry) >We are in an age of incredible freedom and dissemination of >information. The leadership had better learn damn quick that the >membership now needs them far less than they need the membership. So - is it already too late? If this message, or replies to it, are inappropriate for this forum I would welcome private replies. Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:31:19 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: "God's plan, which is Evolution" [Theosophical Dogma] Message-ID: >From item read in UK news: EGYPT. "Most wives believe their men have a right to beat them if they talk back or refuse to have sex, according to an official government survey." Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:59:42 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: In message <199702090130.MAA22728@oznet07.ozemail.com.au>, C Kent writes >So what I want to know is this. Are there any similar groups or movements >within the TS worldwide attempting to do anything similar? What has been >done before along these lines, who can I hook up with to keep my morale up >while I attempt this monumental feat? Are there others who would like to >build on what we have started, or can we borrow from others? Are their any >members of the hierarchy anywhere in the world who want to see change? Are >they willing to work with local individuals and groups to help achieve it? THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL comprises men and women who, of their own free choice, subscribe to the spirit of the three objects first formulated by the Theosophical Society, but in a more up-to-date form based on suggestions by members of the internet community, and expressed thus: 1. To form a nucleus within the universal human family, without distinction of sex, sexual orientation, creed, class, or color. 2. To encourage and engage in the study of comparative religion, theosophy, philosophy, and the scientific method, according to individual ability and inclination. 3. To investigate mysteries of nature and unrealized human potential and abilities, with an underlying respect for all life. THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL is a voluntary network, whereby it is sufficient to declare one's sympathy and/or allegiance to the three objects, and to be registered as having done so. No belief system is required - nor assumed to be held - by any member. All have the right to choose, without trace of coercion, the path by which they seek understanding. There are no fees, no subscriptions, although voluntary donations and/or contributions could be made to specific projects or even individuals for particular and specified purposes. As THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL does not have and does not need rules, whether anyone participates in or supports any such activity is an entirely personal matter. We hope to be of service, and to share what we have in amity with other theosophical, occult, and esoteric organizations, as also with like-minded individuals. ------------------------------- To join Theosophy International, send an e-mail message asking to be registered to TI@nellie2.demon.co.uk or give your name and other details you wish to share to whoever introduced you. To join in disussion about promoting "TI" objects, send an e-mail to listproc@vnet.net with no subject header and the message subscribe TI-L [your name] To join in other theosophical discussion, also send the massage subscribe theos-l [your name] Do not use a "sig" file - you will get an extra "error" message! ---------------------------------------------------------------- "TI" has 60 members in thirteen countries. Alan Bain IMPORTANT NOTE: Although TI members are active on the various theosophy mailing lists (theos-l, theos-buds, etc., and which are maintined by John Mead (himself a TI member), none of the theos mailing lists is owned or exclusively reserved for members of Theosophy International, Nor is TI a part of any other theosophical organisation. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:51:53 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Guardian Angels Message-ID: In message <199702080436.XAA01402@envirolink.org>, John Straughn writes >I've noticed that several religions, have "guardian angels" written into their >systems. Are they supported by Theosophy? (Generally, not with respect to >specific authors) I thought perhaps theses conceptions were derived from the >monadic theory, but the more I learn about monads, the more they seem to be >involved with Forces, not individuals. >--- >The Triaist > Depends what you understand by Theosophy, and what you understand by "guardian angels." Kabbalah has them, and Kabbalah is *a* theosophy, but not big T theosophy. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:58:04 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: In message <199702090130.MAA22728@oznet07.ozemail.com.au>, C Kent writes >For my efforts I have been slandered, vilified, and ridiculed by the office >bearers and others, with all manner of gossip now flying around to try to >destroy my credibility. Welcome to the club ... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:47:43 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: desires Message-ID: In message <970207145108_683308708@emout16.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >With hard work, standing on one's head for forty years, staring at the sun >without blinking and eating lots of broccoli one may eliminate sexual desire, >along with any contact with reality or semblance of sanity. >But who in his or her right mind would want to? > >Chuck the Heretic How do you think I got to where I am today? Broccoli Bain From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 23:21:38 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970209052138.0071d334@mail.eden.com> At 08:34 PM 2/8/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have been lurking on this list for a while and have smelled some >discontent with the TS in the air, but haven't seen it openly addressed. I >apologise before hand, if raising an issue specific to the current TS is out >of order. Please hit your trash button now if you are tired of TS politics. >I also apologise for the length. > >I have enlisted in the Theos-buds group hoping to see some discussion about >the future of the TS there, but have not received any mail from that group >to date. Is it active? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clip <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Hi It is not a question of discontent. It is simply a question of some of recognizing certain fundamental issues that, in our opinions, seem to be working against the growth and spread of Theosophy. When you see that some of these issues are not local, but are around the world, it looks they may be more serious than what is recognized. Your posting here is the right place. Here is where the action is. You donot have to be apologetic either for the content or length. More later. MKRamadoss > >I have been a member of a TS lodge for around 10 years. I have visited >several others across two countries. (I am also a member of AMORC and am >active in many New Age forums.) > >Over those ten years I have seen the society decline into bigotry and fear. >I have seen it (locally) alienate any newcomers who have arrived, >particularly the young and enthusiastic. I have seen the average age go up >until I am just a "young thing" (which would be great under any other >circumstances). I have seen behaviour which would make the corporate world >blush. I have seen politics which could teach even the most corrupt >politicians something. I have seen victimisation and brutality which would >make the US police force gasp, and dare I say it, occult activity which >would make a black coven grin with delight. I have seen active sexism, >racism and ageism which would not be tolerated anywhere else. Our local >Lodge is losing membership at the rate of 20-30 a year and has been losing >membership for at least as long as I have been getting annual reports. We >have gone from over 400ish when I joined to 280ish at present. > >On the other hand I have seen very little "service", very little kindness, >very little nurturing. I have seen very few people attempting to become >self aware and work on themselves and I have seen very little of any form of >applied spirituality (whatever that may mean). Those who are interested in >such a focus tend not to stay in the organisation, either retreating from >active membership, leaving in dismay or being driven out. ( I stress that I >am speaking locally and am not attacking any individual.) > >To attempt to redress this I have roused our local membership to form a >network - without official sanction or approval - to look into a vision for >the future both for our local Lodge and for Theosophy (as it affects our >local Lodge) generally. Our starting position is that the TS structure and >its manner of addressing spiritual issues are outmoded, and that the >organisation will collapse if it continues to refuse to change to suit the >times. We have committed to retaining a positive focus for our group and >we are not permitting any politics in relation to the current management. >We have created several subgroups to look at aspects of management of a TS >Lodge, (physical facilities, management structure, teachings and activities, >public relations, ethics, and service). > >However, I have found myself weighted down by the lack of real enthusiasm >and vision of most of the remaining members of the Lodge (despite their >words to the contrary), and by their unusually high levels of negativity and >fear. Most of the good young talent has already left. Any suggestion is >seen as too radical (such radical stuff as changing the tea room hours). >For my efforts I have been slandered, vilified, and ridiculed by the office >bearers and others, with all manner of gossip now flying around to try to >destroy my credibility. > >I knew all of this would happen before I started, but I suppose I just >wanted to see how far I could go before it all wore me down, and whether my >efforts would lure any remaining beauty or grace in the organisation out of >hiding. > >So what I want to know is this. Are there any similar groups or movements >within the TS worldwide attempting to do anything similar? What has been >done before along these lines, who can I hook up with to keep my morale up >while I attempt this monumental feat? Are there others who would like to >build on what we have started, or can we borrow from others? Are their any >members of the hierarchy anywhere in the world who want to see change? Are >they willing to work with local individuals and groups to help achieve it? > >Or is it all doomed? > >I quote from Chuck the Heretic >>On the other hand, I have derived some comfort from the belief that an >>organization that could survive such a collection of lunatics, scoundrels and >>sundry morons must have some great, intrinsic merit to keep it going. > >Please tell me what its intrinsic merit is? > >I quote from AEB >>Essentially, Wood was saying that TS had turned into a soap opera. >and then Alan >>Which it remained. > >And a very vicious one at that! Give me "Neighbours" any day. > >I quote from Einar >>It's my experience that TS workers are not at all enviable of their >>Work, at least not money-vise, and by reading the posts on this list, >>their work doesn't seem much appreciated otherwise either. Of >>course there are human problems inside the TS. In the management >>of any society there are always traces of revelry, envy, jealousy, >>etc. and it seems to be an "universal law" that those that never >>won't do anything but talk, always know best how NOT to do >>things! > >There are many who have come through our Lodge at various times who would >have loved to contribute, but were only allowed to do so if they made >themselves subservient clones of the incumbent power group. Very few see >any value in doing this. Please do not forget that Hitler worked very hard >and was totally devoted to his cause, fully believing that he was under >divine guidance, but did it make his actions "right"? > >I am glad that the organisation is healthy in at least one country - this is >good news. It may mean that the egregore is not totally corrupt. If our >groups actually manage to keep going, I will certainly ask you some >questions about your local organisation, so that we can learn from your success. > >I quote from Einar again >>If you are so unhappy about your position within the theosophical >>movement, as some of you seem to be, pick yourself a position or a >>field of work, and make that however small field an example for >>others to see. If you are really good at it, you will eventually end up >>being a "lamp unto others". > >And Einar, tell me that it worth the monumental effort of doing this WITHIN >the TS when no amount of personal light seems to be enough and when effort >may be potentiallybetter spent elsewhere. > >Somone else wrote (sorry) >>We are in an age of incredible freedom and dissemination of >>information. The leadership had better learn damn quick that the >>membership now needs them far less than they need the membership. > >So - is it already too late? > >If this message, or replies to it, are inappropriate for this forum I would >welcome private replies. > >Christine > > > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:00:53 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 893 Message-ID: <199702090600.RAA12948@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> Christine wrote >>For my efforts I have been slandered, vilified, and ridiculed by the office >>bearers and others, with all manner of gossip now flying around to try to >>destroy my credibility. Alan wrote >Welcome to the club ... Me again Yes, when the fearful started to say, aren't you afraid of what they will do to you, I asked them just what they thought the TS could do to me for exercising my democratic right as a member. The answers included, psychic or mental attack, legal action, character assassination, and horror of horrors, throw me out of the society! The first - well best left alone. The second - I don't think the TS wants to go to court, it could turn into quite a circus if it did! As far as character assassination is concerned I gave up worrying about that when I read somewhere in a Castaneda book "don't do anything you can't think of a good story for afterwards" - well, I'm becoming a good story teller. To the last one my answer was "well I will be in good company then, won't I!". ;-) And thanks for the referral to Theosophy International. I'll see if I am amongst friends there. Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 00:54:55 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 893 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970209065455.0075600c@mail.eden.com> At 01:06 AM 2/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >Christine wrote >>>For my efforts I have been slandered, vilified, and ridiculed by the office >>>bearers and others, with all manner of gossip now flying around to try to >>>destroy my credibility. > >Alan wrote >>Welcome to the club ... > >Me again >Yes, when the fearful started to say, aren't you afraid of what they will do >to you, I asked them just what they thought the TS could do to me for >exercising my democratic right as a member. The answers included, psychic >or mental attack, legal action, character assassination, and horror of >horrors, throw me out of the society! What a nonsense coming from ignorant people in this day and age. Psychic or mental attacks -- Just scare tactics. They will get reflected back from you and return to the sender. It will be fun to watch the effects. Legal action -- is there any money involved? Who wants to waste money? It will become a circus. Again scare tactics. Character assassination -- you stand up for what you believe and what you think is right. Your character will get enhanced. The perpetrators will get decimated. Throwing you out of the Society. Who wants to make you a martyr? With Internet, it will be the latest news around the world and no one can stop it from being broadcast immediately. You have nothing to lose -- may be you will save your annual dues money. You will see those who have made those threats may be gone soon. I believe that Unseen powers always protect those who are working for the good of humanity and who knows you are being used by Them. Be brave and go ahead do what you think is right. Lot of our problems are due to people not acting on what they think is right and be passive. All the good wishes and support from myself and everyone here. MKRamadoss >The first - well best left alone. The second - I don't think the TS wants >to go to court, it could turn into quite a circus if it did! As far as >character assassination is concerned I gave up worrying about that when I >read somewhere in a Castaneda book "don't do anything you can't think of a >good story for afterwards" - well, I'm becoming a good story teller. To >the last one my answer was "well I will be in good company then, won't I!". >;-) > >And thanks for the referral to Theosophy International. I'll see if I am >amongst friends there. > >Christine > > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 00:47:38 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Key Message-ID: <32FD8F21.230@withoutwalls.com> Carrot: >>>I've noticed that several religions, have "guardian angels" written into >>>their systems. Are they supported by Theosophy? (Generally, not with >>>respect to specific authors) I thought perhaps theses conceptions were >>>derived from the monadic theory, but the more I learn about monads, the >>>more they seem to be involved with Forces, not individuals. >> >>Here's a key: >> . That about which naught can be said > >> X >> X X X X X X Impersonal Personality -| >> X X X X | >> X X |-- (Here's where you might look) >> X X X X | >> X X X X X X Personal Impersonality -| >> X > > >I'm not sure I understand. Could you explain without saying it again? Maybe >a few more pictures would help... > > >Carrots are slow at this. -- "Guardian Angel" was originally a way that the individual higher nature was perceived. Beneficent masters, compassionate bodhisattvas, interior helpers, wise and kind devas, impersonal evolutionary forces, the spirit of humanity, etc. all resonate within at that level. Those few simple glyphs contain keys to what you seek. They resonate so deeply within us that they can act as veritable doors, communication devices, data foci, etc. to and from higher realms. If they intrinsically mean anything at all to you, I would suggest holding them as a "form of understanding" with love in your heart. Making of them a personal offering while invoking your Higher Nature and All that is One with it. This is a ritual antahkaranic meditation that attempts to bridge the gap. Question #1: What do you think is the relationship between the theosophical understanding of the inner nature of man, individuation and the Jungian "Self?" Question #2: If you had a choice between a discussion about something or an actual experience of it, which would you choose? Mark (actually a hamster) -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun Feb 9 05:10:16 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: Guardian Angels Message-ID: <199702091010.FAA01786@envirolink.org> Dr. A.M.Bain writes: >In message <199702080436.XAA01402@envirolink.org>, John Straughn >Depends what you understand by Theosophy, and what you understand by >"guardian angels." Kabbalah has them, and Kabbalah is *a* theosophy, >but not big T theosophy. > >Alan >--------- (nodding) By guardian angels I mean a protective deity which is not part of the individual being protected, (by saying "not part of", I mean that the "deity" has 1) a seperate heirarchy, or 2) is of the same heirarchy, but likely "higher", and is constituted of a seperate buddhi vehicle.) And yes, I did mean to capitalize (T)heosophy. I was just curious if (T)heosophists or even theosophists generally accepted the idea behind the "guardian angel". --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 04:42:12 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: An interesting excerpt Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970209104212.006b7fe4@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting excerpt from listening-l. > In the meantime, we play within this magnificent garden > of joy and sorrow. > > And who are we? > > Are we elaborate figments of unitary imagination, > awaiting rapturous annihilation in a grand cosmic awakening? > > Are we momentary bubbles of perception, > evanescing from the pristine slime of existence? > > Are we a huddling herd of singularities, > overlapping infinitely distant event horizons? > > Are we a blaze of flickering images, > cast by myriad facets of a crystal mirror of Self-reflection? > > Are we hunters and gatherers and farmers and writers and > builders and bankers and philosophers? > > Are we seekers and thieves, truth and untruth, love and hate, > lost and found, and then all over again? > > Are we forever going and returning, rising and falling, > inhaling and exhaling? > > Do we know ourselves? > > Are there selves for us to know? > > Is Self there? > > Who? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:35:24 +0100 From: "Martin Euser" Subject: Re: the future of the TS Message-ID: <199702091138.MAA23370@venus.euro.net> >C Kent writes >So what I want to know is this. Are there any similar groups or movements >within the TS worldwide attempting to do anything similar? What has been >done before along these lines, who can I hook up with to keep my morale up >while I attempt this monumental feat? Are there others who would like to >build on what we have started, or can we borrow from others? Are their any >members of the hierarchy anywhere in the world who want to see change? Are >they willing to work with local individuals and groups to help achieve it? Hi Christine, You certainly raise a lot of questions! >From my experience a small group of dedicated workers can accomplish the same or more than a large group consisting mostly of people that are content with the way things are. So..., consider to do the things *you* consider necessary, rather than let your energy be drained by the old 'gang'. You may consider to leave the lodge you're part of and make a new start. There are plenty of alternative ways one could work for the spiritual welfare of your fellow human beings. Method, approach, etc. vary according to individual temperament, character, qualities, etc. Einar seems to have an interesting approach, and there are others who have developed their own one. My own approach has been, besides working in a small dedicated group, to focus on the internet and make theosophical teachings and related ones available on-line. See URL in my signature. Also, theosophy is not the only approach by which people can learn about esoteric philosophy. There are many other organisations operating in this field, although the material they offer is not always of high quality. High quality material is now available through the internet. For example, look at Vitvan's teachings which are really refreshing to those who are tired of too much metaphysics. Alvin Boyd Kuhn offers another interesting approach in his studies of the symbolism of religions. I would encourage comparitive study of some of these writers! One could easily include some of these materials in a curriculum which is unfortunately seldomly done! (second object of TS! ) For one reason or another theosophical societies have the tendency to think that they possess the sole truth, which is absurd! Through increasing communication people are becoming aware of the diversity and wealth of material available on esoteric topics. You could develop a multi-faceted approach to the wisdom-tradition if you would like to. Do you know any individuals whom you could work with together? Well, these are just some ideas. Hope it will be of any use to you. One last advice: just DO the things *you* think are necessary and don't pay any attention to those who stick to old patterns- that's a wate of time and energy! Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:28:10 +0200 From: "Bob Thorsen" Subject: subscription Message-ID: <199702091921.RAA14723@phantom.pix.za> "Unsubscribe" Thank you, Bob =========================================================== == Bob Thorsen == =========================================================== Snailmail: P.O. Box 90499, Bertsham, South Africa, 2014 E-Mail: bob.thorsen@pixie.co.za bob.thorsen@bbs.fast.co.za WWW page: http://www.pix.za//planet/bobspage.html =========================================================== From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 97 9:21:11 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Imagine my surprise... Message-ID: <199702091421.JAA12560@leo.vsla.edu> Upon opening my emailbox Sunday morning and finding Richard's post and JRC's fellowup, both with my name on the header. Richard created an opportunity for me to demonstrate some intuition of lack thereof, as well as his own predictive ability. That is because although my copy of The Quest has arrived, I didn't open it. Looked at it and thought, "Oh, God, it's February, I'm not a member any more, why are they sending that?" It went into some pile and will take a while to find, but it's here somewhere. I feel happy when A.R.E. stuff comes, and tear it open; anything postmarked Wheaton makes me think "Uh-oh, what new mischief is afoot?" Don't think whatever it is will drive me crazy, as Richard predicts. As to making me glad to me an ex-member of the TSA, sounds like this will be effective. Here's the guess: almost but not quite a page, halfway back, by John Algeo, thoroughly endorsing Mr. Caldwell's impeccable scholarship as further proof that the Wheaton/Adyar worthies have been right all along in dismissing my approach to the Masters and HPB. But I won't go too far out on a limb with that prediction, as it may have occurred to Caldwell and Algeo that a third voice aligned with theirs would be more effective. Now I'll go look and either eat crow if my prediction is totally wrong, or crow a bit if it's right. (It's not a prediction since the review is already in the magazine in my house, unopened. More like an intuitive guess.) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 97 10:01:30 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Better than expected Message-ID: <199702091501.KAA14640@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Richard, I kept thinking "The Quest to find the damn magazine is the thing that's gonna drive me crazy," as I searched the bedroom, den, living room, kitchen and car-- only to find it under something within reach of where I was sitting. So-- it's shorter, further back, and less emphatic than your fears for my sanity led me to expect. I don't begrudge Daniel this recognition for his many years of work, and hope his booklet proves enlightening to many. Especially when read in conjunction with my rebuttal. The only emotional reaction I have is to the sight of the new Quest, and how symbolic it is that the former Quest was big and eclectic and shiny, while the new Quest is small and narrow and drab. That's how I feel about TSA nowadays. If anyone wants a referral to a big and eclectic and shiny New Age group, let me know. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 97 10:15:33 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Saving Theosophy from the TS Message-ID: <199702091515.KAA15882@leo.vsla.edu> Christine Kent's was one of the most affecting posts I have ever read on this list. It echoes the same sentiments about the TS/Wheaton/Adyar that have been heard from such different places and over such a long time. But the conversations never seem to go beyond a certain point. We lament the situation, and have TI as a 60-member Internet group, but an alternative to the existing power arrangement is rarely proposed. If 1000 new people have joined the TSA every year for the last twenty, but only 100 stayed on as longterm members, there are 200,000 ex-Theosophists out there in the US alone. Even if we assume 50,000 are dead, that still leaves five times the current *international* membership as *ex-members* in just this country! (Somebody check my math, though.) How many just lost interest in the material, and how many were turned off by the organization? I'm certainly in the latter group. How many would return to some kind of Theosophical affiliation that imposed none of the hassles imposed by Wheaton/Adyar? Yet provided some real international concord and networking, cooperation in publishing, etc.? If one of the European independent Theosophical groups (and I don't know their approaches very well) decided to look for disaffected current and ex-Adyar members to form a North American section, there are probably hundreds who would be immediately interested in such a proposal. The situation looks ripe for some sort of competitor to Adyar to reach out to the many many people who have been alienated. Cheers Paul ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:54:22 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Better than expected Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970209165422.0074a6d0@mail.eden.com> At 10:03 AM 2/9/97 -0500, Paul wrote: > >The only emotional reaction I have is to the sight of the new >Quest, and how symbolic it is that the former Quest was big and >eclectic and shiny, while the new Quest is small and narrow and >drab. We have had discussions about the high fog index of former Quest which was big and eclectic and shiny. For most of the un-scholarly ordinary readers like me, most of its contents were un-understandable and my copies ended up routinely in the waste paper basket as soon as it arrived. One time I even asked Wheaton not to mail me a copy so that some trees and money could be saved. In addition a huge fortune of money was spent on former Quest as there was not enough subscribers to make it self sustaining. In the light of the above, I am one those who are very glad to see the disappearance of the former Quest. Whether the new one is small and narrow and drab, I will let the readers make up their own mind. MKR So I am ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 11:09:41 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Saving Theosophy from the TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970209170941.007438cc@mail.eden.com> At 10:17 AM 2/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >Christine Kent's was one of the most affecting posts I have >ever read on this list. It echoes the same sentiments about >the TS/Wheaton/Adyar that have been heard from such different >places and over such a long time. But the conversations never >seem to go beyond a certain point. We lament the situation, >and have TI as a 60-member Internet group, but an alternative >to the existing power arrangement is rarely proposed. > >If 1000 new people have joined the TSA every year for the last >twenty, but only 100 stayed on as longterm members, there are >200,000 ex-Theosophists out there in the US alone. Even if we >assume 50,000 are dead, that still leaves five times the >current *international* membership as *ex-members* in just this >country! (Somebody check my math, though.) How many just >lost interest in the material, and how many were turned off by the >organization? I'm certainly in the latter group. How many >would return to some kind of Theosophical affiliation that >imposed none of the hassles imposed by Wheaton/Adyar? Yet >provided some real international concord and networking, >cooperation in publishing, etc.? > >If one of the European independent Theosophical groups (and I >don't know their approaches very well) decided to look for >disaffected current and ex-Adyar members to form a North >American section, there are probably hundreds who would be >immediately interested in such a proposal. The situation looks >ripe for some sort of competitor to Adyar to reach out to the >many many people who have been alienated. > >Cheers >Paul I do not know if a competing T group is the answer to the underlying problems with TS. There were/are many other Theosophical organizations which are working with the same objects as TS, Adyar. But in most cases, when there is an organization combined with property and money and spirituality, it makes an unusual combination which affects the leadership and their action. If we look at most success stories in any kind of activity, it is solely due to the dedication and commitment of a few individuals -- not masses -- that is the essential ingredient. At the local level, for any T/theosophical activity -- all that is needed is a core collection of a few individuals that can get a lot going. I have seen this happen in other organizations. So it looks to me that we should forge ahead with any activity that each one of us think is the right one for us and if many of us here try this approach we will see results. As for networking, that is easy. With e-mail and theos-xxxx we can all be in touch for any cooperation or help and broadcast our activities outside our local area. There is an enormous amount of talent out on theos-xxxx subscribers and if there is a need we can tap it with ease and at no cost to anyone. Before theos-xxxx we did not have such a tool of getting in touch with others interested. So let us forge ahead. This does not mean that we should not let others know of any problems we see with TS/TSA. Keep posting anything of interest regarding Theosophical Movement and TS/TSA. One of these days they have to come to grips with real deep seated organizational issues. My 2 cents worth. Your mileage and direction may vary. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:19:49 -0500 (EST) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Guardian Angels Message-ID: <970209121946_983218348@emout05.mail.aol.com> For several decades I have considered the matter of whether or not we have "guardian angels." My conclusion (and I do not know whether there is "documentation" to support it or not) is that, indeed, we do ... and THEY ARE US. That is, a guardian angel is simply the higher self striving to guide and protect (to the extent that it can) the lower self. In this regard the guardian angel is quite motivated (for obvious reasons) but also quite limited. The situation is somewhat analogous to the relationship between a computer and its operator. The computer "knows" many things and has multiple capabilities. However, it also has definite limitations ... and even within the limitations it does not always perform in the manner intended. Not infrequently, we find ourselves saying to our computers (at least mentally): "STOP doing what I tell you and START doing what I want!" It may be that the guardian angel encounters this same problem. The physical instru- ment that it must work through on this plane of existence has significant limitations (some genetic and others induced by subsequent circumstances). Yes, it strives always to guide and protect the chosen physical instrument but, surely, there must be times when, figura- tively, it finds itself crying out: "Stop doing what you think I'm telling you ... and start doing what I know I want." To truly love and cooperate with our guardian angels, then, we need to look within and look with care. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:38:21 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: <9702092138.AA03132@toto.csustan.edu> CK >Over those ten years I have seen the society decline into >bigotry and fear. I have seen it (locally) alienate any >newcomers who have arrived, particularly the young and >enthusiastic. I have seen the average age go up until I am just >a "young thing" (which would be great under any other >circumstances). I have seen behaviour which would make the >corporate world blush. I have seen politics which could teach >even the most corrupt politicians something..... [snip] JHE I have seen the same thing over the last 35 years. Ernest Wood recorded the same observations for the first third of this century. CK >On the other hand I have seen very little "service", very little >kindness, very little nurturing. I have seen very few people >attempting to become self aware and work on themselves and I >have seen very little of any form of applied spirituality >(whatever that may mean). Those who are interested in >such a focus tend not to stay in the organization, either >retreating from active membership, leaving in dismay or being >driven out. ( I stress that I am speaking locally and am not >attacking any individual.) JHE Exactly our experience. When we were leading a Lodge in Los Angeles, we did manage to temporarly turn a Lodge around. We created a lot of interest and activities concerning service among the members, and for a time overpowered those who tried to keep the status quo. Therefore we were considered a radical and undesirable Lodge. When we left it, the old guard took over again, the Lodge realigned with Wheaton and reverted to its old ways. CK >[snip] We have committed to retaining a positive focus for our >group and we are not permitting any politics in relation to the >current management. We have created several subgroups to look >at aspects of management of a TS Lodge, (physical facilities, >management structure, teachings and activities, public >relations, ethics, and service). JHE We are on your wave length. We don't discuss TS politics or history in our groups either. We are interested in learning what you come up with. CK >However, I have found myself weighted down by the lack of real >enthusiasm and vision of most of the remaining members of the >Lodge (despite their words to the contrary), and by their >unusually high levels of negativity and fear. Most of the good >young talent has already left. Any suggestion is seen as too >radical (such radical stuff as changing the tea room hours). >For my efforts I have been slandered, vilified, and ridiculed by >the office bearers and others, with all manner of gossip now >flying around to try to destroy my credibility. JHE Welcome to the club that may even have more members than the TS itself by now. Belive me, there are far more people around than you may realize that have had the same experiences of being slandered, vilified, ridiculed etc. I never cease to be amazed at the consistency of the method the TS uses in every country to destroy any positive efforts for reform and to drive away the talented members. I'm convinced that the reason why reform is not likely to come from the Lodge level is because the problem with the TS is systemic. The TS has to be completely reorganized from the top down. CK >I knew all of this would happen before I started, but I suppose >I just wanted to see how far I could go before it all wore me >down, and whether my efforts would lure any remaining beauty or >grace in the organization out of hiding. JHE And instead of finding beauty, you ran into its ugly shadow side. Right? CK >So what I want to know is this. Are there any similar groups or >movements within the TS worldwide attempting to do anything >similar? JHE Yes, many in the past and in the present. They end up either being crushed out or continue on independently of the TS. Check out Alan Bain's Theosophy International. Some real possibilities here for you, I think. CK >What has been done before along these lines, who can I hook up >with to keep my morale up while I attempt this monumental feat? JHE What has been tried is the same as what you are doing. For your country, you might learn all you can about J.M. Prentice. I have seen and heard of many efforts, but have never seen them change the TS, other than to better prepare them against the next effort. Sorry. But we wish you success and will support you in any way we can. CK >Are there others who would like to build on what we have >started, or can we borrow from others? JHE Our resources are open to you, and we are interested in your efforts and any progree you make. CK >Are their any members of the hierarchy anywhere in the world who >want to see change? JHE If there is, I would ask: can a member of the "hierarchy" affect systemic change without being thrown out? This reminds me of Henry Smith, who was the National President of TSA until he tried to make a series of systemic changes in the organization. His efforts were answered in 1965 he was pushed out of office amidst scandal and gossip. CK >Are they willing to work with local individuals and groups to >help achieve it? JHE Smith tried to work with individuals and groups both inside and outside the TS. He had initial success, and TSA actually began to briefly move in a positive direction, until the hierarchy became threatened and threw him out. CK Or is it all doomed? JHE Around 1890 HPB said that the soul of the TS was already killed by Olcott and only a corpse remains. She tried to bring new life into the organization when she went to Europe in 1885 and organized the British section and published THE SECRET DOCTRINE. I believe her efforts were a temporary success and continued for a time in the Judge line Organizations. But I believe that HPB was right: the Adyar TS is nothing more than a decomposing corpse. On the other hand, I believe that the soul of Theosophy is still with us, but is not in the organization. I know many Theosophists who study Theosophy, strive for "applied spirituality" (I think I know what you mean), and are interested in service. A few are still in the TS. But those who still are, are very marginalized members. I think the soul of Theosophy continues to express itself through individual and group efforts outside of the TS and sometimes in other organizations not connected with Theosophy. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 21:57:30 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [meanings] Message-ID: Tom Wrote: >Someone responded and said that jdfhghk was the opposite of wjrkfhk, and vice versa,and that now I could now know what jdfhghk and wjrkfhk. To say that they are simply opposites tells you nothing about the characteristics or defining qualities of two ideas nor does the word opposite "mean" anything at all.The word opposite tells you nothing of their relationship either to themselves or, potentially, to other ideas.For example, I might say that Moon is "opposite" Venus in a horoscope but unless I knew that I was talking in terms of degrees of a circle such a statement wouldn't mean anything to me. How then can you say that you could know anything about them.All,as far I can say, is that the two ideas exist. Could you also define "meaning". I might intuively dream about certain ideas, and possibly relations to other ideas but that doesn't necessarily imply that those ideas have any "meaning" - in fact many have no meaning for me at all!! >Masculinity and femininity can both be observed, distinctly from each >other,and defined as the opposites of each other. In order for them to be observed they must have some quality(s). I do not believe that definition of these words is possible - and if one can ,then it is almost certainly from a personal/subjective point of view. IMHO the "boundary conditons" ,to use mathematical terminology, are not universal and as such lead to variations in the "observations";thus we are led to a chaotic "meaning" of the terms so expressed, and therefore have no meaning at all. >Many opposites cannot exist independently of each other.. "Many"? I have always been under the impression that the idea of "opposites" by its very nature meant that two opposites cannot not be independent under all conditions. Could you give me an example of of a pair of opposites that exist independently? Namaste Ben From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:02:59 +0000 From: Alan Subject: OUR DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS! Message-ID: <0HsryOADPn$yEwfR@nellie2.demon.co.uk> ------- Forwarded message follows ------- OUR DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS! We are representetives of the social organisation of spirit direction, called " The Community of Cosmic Conscience " . Our Community is the Moscow organisation. It was officially registrated on the 19th of November in 1993. The aim of the Community is the elimination of the spirit ignorance of people and turning their orientation to moral values. The means which help us to achieve the purpose are seminars, ectures, open evenings of the spirit direction, publication of books, the use of means of the mass media: radio , television, newspapers, magazines. In our work we base on theosophical works, on books about the Agni- Yoga , on books of Alice Bailey A , on works of great Danish cosmologist of the XXth century Martinus. We dont deny any spirit trend , leading to the Light. At our open evenings esoterists and scientists give lectures: the stage was given to members of the Orthodox Church and to the followers of Shri Chinmoi and of Krishna, to Mormons and Tantrists, and to representatives of the religion Bahai, to the members of the Community Babagy, and to the head of Pythagorian school. E t. c. We are for the friendship between different spirit trends, for the tolerable attitude to brothers undergoing the evolutional way. Awared of the vital necessity of the collaboration of all the light forces of the Univers we would also like to receive some informatin about your activities. As we are poor noncommercional organisation in Russia, the country very poor in the present day, and as far as in Russia not all the theosophical books have been published, we would be very glad to receive from you some books in English such as of Olkott, of Jage or such books of Alice Bailey A as "The Pupilship in the New Century", " The Unfinished Biography", The Materialisation of the Hierarchy". In exchange we could send you works of the leader of our Community Alla Ter-Akopyan (unfortunately they were published only in Russian) "The Agni-Yoga - Celestial Dictation", " The Agni- Yoga about Jesus the Christ", " Spaces of Four- measurements" , " The Doctine of Light for Children". We are interested in audio and video aid of occult, esoteric, meditational orientation. In particular, a documentary american film "The Ancients prophecies", based mainly on the predictions of Edgar Cayce. In Russia we have no possibility to get it , we would be very grateful to you for sending it to us. In general we are ready for any kinds of collaboration. We would be very glad to have you at our place, to discuss with you, to listen to lectures on subjects which you are interested in. We are deeply convinced that is necessary to combine our efforts for creation of the wideworld brotherhood. We wish the Light to your souls and fortitude in such a stormy time for the Planet. February, 10. 1997. Moscow. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:49:53 +0000 From: Alan Subject: Welcome Message-ID: <7nQo6FAxCn$yEw95@nellie2.demon.co.uk> THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL welcomes Christine Kent! Private welcomes to cmkent@ozemail.com.au Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 22:10:45 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: IQ TEST Message-ID: When you ask for 6 it is no longer an IQ test, it is also a test in linguistics. A friend who studys the subject constantly tries to explain the differences between tones. The "fff" sound can easily be found, but the "ve" sound is more difficult. Indeed are the "f"'s there at all? Then you have the silent "f"'s or mispronunciations such as "thief"!Also, are those who who have a lisp less intelligent? Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 17:14:02 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Beneath Bing Message-ID: <32FE4C2A.32EE@sprynet.com> Ken Malkin wrote: > Please forward the address of your member Ed Abdill. I will make the > same request to him that I have made to J. Algeo (still unanswered) for > a copy of the "Minutes" you claim to have seen. All he has access to, currently, is the New York minutes. And we cannot legally give those out except to a member. However, you may send a message to him via nyts@dorsai.org. > Why do you entreat the meaning of "menial labor" and ignore the true > question in the post? For your information, menial labor is that which > is afield of a man’s qualifications and previous achievements. Your > source at Wheaton may make your privy to the written proof of their > actual severance package to Bing. And, if someone thinks that they are qualified to be President of General Motors, making them Executive Vice President is considered to be "menial labor". As has been posted by others, Bing was offered positions which most of us would not call "menial labor". > I fail to understand though your hiding behind a thinly crafted legal > veil. If the minutes are available as you state, what is your legal > problem with just quoting them? My gosh, am I to be considered an > outsider when I request something of a fellow traveler on the same path? For me to physically copy the minutes would require I go through a LOT of trouble. Since I have not seen one iota of documentation supporting the accusations, why should I spend hours refuting them? It would be far easier for me to just start throwing baseless accusations at you and require that you come up with the documentation to refute them. > Bart, there is no record of any national board meetings in the archives > of the Miami lodge. I was a member of the Board of the Miami lodge, > serving in many capacities, for twelve years, from 1984 to 1996. Wheaton > has never sent its minutes. Never happened in New York, either. But if the New York Lodge receives an official letter, it goes into our minutes. Bart Lidofsky ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 17:29:57 EST From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Subject: IQ 2 Message-ID: <199702092229.3752400@microfone.net> RE: the "F" word -- As John pointed out, it's not an IQ test at all. My favorite is A bird in the the hand two in the the bush Print them on cards, hand them to somebody and say, "Read this." (I hope the spacing comes out right on e-mail) A first grader will never make the obvious mistake. It's *not* an IQ test; just the opposite. I wouldn't admit to anyone that I saw more than 3 Fs... Jim ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 17:46:23 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Judaic Law Message-ID: <32FE53BF.15BD@sprynet.com> Jerry Schueler wrote: > > > Hmmmm...the law states that if someone loses an eye, then the person > >who caused the injury should replace the eye as best as they can. The > >same as a tooth, etc. What is wrong with that? > > > > Bart Lidofsky > > "Vengence is mine, sayth the Lord." In short, it is your > motive that counts here. If your motive is vengence, then following > the Judaic law is wrong. If it is repentence, then fine. If your motive is vengence, then you are NOT following Judaic Law. If your motive is justice, then it is: "Justice, justice, shalt thou follow". Bart Lidofsky ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:24:13 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: <970209192409_1711386798@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-08 20:34:57 EST, you write: >Please tell me what its intrinsic merit is? > > They let me in.:) Seriously, I don't know what kind of mess you have in Australia, but from what you're saying it makes the stuff we have here in the US look pretty tame by comparison. The sad truth is that organizations are made up of humans and people can be damn obnoxious when they try (I know because I don't have to try as hard as most, but then I was born that way). The TS is peculiar because for all of its weirdness it is one of the very few instances where the whole does at times tend to be greater than the sum of its parts. Now I can't come up with any specifics to back that, but in the US we tend to get upset at the people who run the society a lot while getting along generally well with our fellow members (at least we did until this list came along and we learned to be nasty to each other). Maybe it's something specific to the American Section. I don't know. I imagine this isn't a very satisfying answer, but the thing you are asking about is pretty much indefinable. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:25:43 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: "God's plan, which is Evolution" [Theosophical Dogma] Message-ID: <970209192543_1644279856@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-08 20:45:10 EST, you write: >EGYPT. "Most wives believe their men have a right to beat them if they >talk back or refuse to have sex, according to an official government >survey." > >Alan Thank goodness there is a pocket of civilization left on this planet. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:29:50 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: desires Message-ID: <970209192949_1895094837@emout09.mail.aol.com> Alan, >How do you think I got to where I am today? >Broccoli Bain Eating broccoli got you to Cornwall?!? It's a good thing it was cauliflower, you might have ended up in Ulan Bator. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:36:14 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 893 Message-ID: <970209193609_1213747900@emout12.mail.aol.com> Christine In a message dated 97-02-09 01:06:20 EST, you write: > >Me again >Yes, when the fearful started to say, aren't you afraid of what they will do >to you, I asked them just what they thought the TS could do to me for >exercising my democratic right as a member. The answers included, psychic >or mental attack, legal action, character assassination, and horror of >horrors, throw me out of the society! Being kicked out of such a bunch might be considered an honor. As far as psychic an mental attack is concerned, for some inexplicable reason no one has ever threatened me with that except for a seriously deranged ex-girlfriend when she slipped on her medication. But speaking from some experience, I highly recommend having a reputation for bad character. Then no one can attack it and it really keeps people out of your hair. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:12:44 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Saving Theosophy from the TS Message-ID: In message <199702091515.KAA15882@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >If one of the European independent Theosophical groups (and I >don't know their approaches very well) decided to look for >disaffected current and ex-Adyar members to form a North >American section, there are probably hundreds who would be >immediately interested in such a proposal. The situation looks >ripe for some sort of competitor to Adyar to reach out to the >many many people who have been alienated. Existing TI members could do this NOW, if they have the will ... and many of them are right there in North America NOW, like you, Paul! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:18:50 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: In message <9702092138.AA03132@toto.csustan.edu>, Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes >I think the soul of Theosophy >continues to express itself through individual and group efforts >outside of the TS and sometimes in other organizations not >connected with Theosophy. I'll say "Amen" to that. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:22:21 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: "God's plan, which is Evolution" [Theosophical Dogma] Message-ID: In message <970209192543_1644279856@emout01.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >In a message dated 97-02-08 20:45:10 EST, you write: > >>EGYPT. "Most wives believe their men have a right to beat them if they >>talk back or refuse to have sex, according to an official government >>survey." >> >>Alan > >Thank goodness there is a pocket of civilization left on this planet. > >Chuck the Heretic If you are suggesting this is Egypt as defined by the above, then Chuck, I sadly find your comment UN-civilized and offensive, even though I suspect you intend to be humorous. Alan :-( --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:55:07 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Better than expected Message-ID: <970209205506_541249793@emout14.mail.aol.com> K. Paul Johnson writes--> I don't begrudge Daniel this recognition for his many years of work, and hope his booklet proves enlightening to many. Especially when read in conjunction with my rebuttal. Richard Ihle writes--> Ya? Well, I am starting to begrudge this and a whole lot more. I begrudge the "HOUSE OF CARDS" because I cannot think of anyone who wrote a fast 43 pages of support for TMR getting the same treatment from QUEST. I begrudge the fact that your proposed "rebuttal" in QUEST is not a certainty by any means; you will have to, as always, cultivate any remaining sense of fair play that a certain individual has left. I begrudge the whole "capital T" agenda for the TS which made them reject TMR for publication to begin with. The bottom line for TMR is that since there is a reasonable possibility that the "Masters" were at least semi-fictionalized creations based upon real individuals, we must judge all teachings on their own merit. The bottom line for Daniel's booklet is that K. Paul Johnson has not succeeded in raising even a single reasonable possibility that the Masters were anything other than the Theo-clergy says they are. Thus, we still have only Master-inspired HPB doctrine equaling "Theosophy." Thus we still have the T-Popes, T-Cardinals, and T-Bishops in their proprietary places, "shaping," "filtering," and "manipulating" in their pathetic little pious ways while the TS goes down the drain. I begrudge the fact that certain people do not have the good grace to be ashamed of themselves. I begrudge "The Theosophical World View" (even though I do not disagree with its content) which Emily Sellon and her committee suddenly produced for the rest of us. I begrudge the "deaf-ear" routine the Board uses for things like the "Bill of Rights" you sent in a long time ago. I begrudge all of the withholding of information about the lodge problems and other things which concern the general membership. I begrudge all the trips Theosophical officials seem to take without signing up anybody new. I begrudge all the money spent on video and other things which seem to have little or no result in signing up anybody new. I begrudge "The Three Aims" which were semi-officially presented as the "inner side of The Three Objects." I begrudge the anal attitude regarding the membership lists (sticky and retentive). I begrudge that the TS has seemed to have forgotten all about its Original Program and is using a dictionary entry ("the beliefs [HPB's doctrines] of a modern movement. . . .") to define Alice Bailey and others out of the tent. I begrudge the circumstance that you, Jerry H-E, and seemingly about half the people on the list have been "marginalized" away from ever being substantial voices in official Theosophy. I begrudge that Theos-l was not recognized right away as the prototype for Theosophy's future--no priviledged points of view, just people who are are willing, under the wide umbrella of THE THREE OBJECTS, to consider and discuss the epistemological category of knowledge which is not necessarily based on empirical data or science (~theosophy~: "knowledge which has its base in, or at least originally derives from, transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher perception." I begrudge the TS's stupidity in not recognizing the genius of the Founders in baiting the hook with the minnow of the Personal Quest rather than the whale of THE SECRET DOCTRINE. I begrudge who the TPH chooses to publish and who not to publish. I begrudge the last election and the one before that. I begrudge the fact that the TS probably has more assets per member than most other such organizations and cannot generate the slightest scintilla of exitement or revival by means of them. I begrudge the little "Board-first" scheme which is moving maybe-Tim-Boyd along toward the presidency of the American Section. I begrudge the fact that all the business of the Society is not entirely out in the OPEN, OPEN, OPEN (or have I mentioned that before?). But no, by comparison, I guess I don't really begrudge Daniel his recognition and $.15 per page, either. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:15:18 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: IQ TEST Message-ID: In message , Benjamin Mark Pybus writes >Also, are those who who >have a lisp less intelligent? Thith ith not pothible. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 19:16:05 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Olcott and HPB Message-ID: <199702100316.TAA26270@palrel1.hp.com> Jerry Hehka-Ekins wrote > Around 1890 HPB said that the soul of the TS was already killed > by Olcott and only a corpse remains. Jerry, do you have a reference for this? I'm interested for several reasons. Thanks. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:22:51 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: [meanings] Message-ID: <331c9c85.135495910@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> Ben wrote: >Tom Wrote: > >>Someone responded and said that jdfhghk was the opposite of wjrkfhk, >>and vice versa,and that now I could now know what jdfhghk and wjrkfhk. >To say that they are simply opposites tells you nothing about the >characteristics or defining qualities of two ideas nor does the word opposite >"mean" anything at all. I find its meaning to be rather clear. If you were standing at one end of a hall, if I was standing at the other end, and if you said "we are standing at opposite ends of the hall," I would be confident that I knew what you meant. >The word opposite tells you nothing of their >relationship either to themselves or, potentially, to other ideas.For >example, I might say that Moon is "opposite" Venus in a horoscope but >unless I knew that I was talking in terms of degrees of a circle such a >statement wouldn't mean anything to me. That words can have more than one meaning does not mean they have no meaning. If a word has no meaning, it shouldn't, wouldn't, and probably couldn't, be used. >Could you also define "meaning". The meaning of a word is either the object to which it refers or its definition. >I might intuively dream about certain >ideas, and possibly relations to other ideas but that doesn't necessarily >imply that those ideas have any "meaning" - in fact many have no meaning >for me at all!! If you could put it into words, every word you used would have meaning. >>Masculinity and femininity can both be observed, distinctly from each >>other,and defined as the opposites of each other. >In order for them to be observed they must have some quality(s). I do not >believe that definition of these words is possible - I go about knowing what they mean and/or defining them by observing the general differences there are between men and women, believing that men are generally predominantly masculine and that women are generally predominantly feminine, and believing that those qualities which are observed more in men are masculine and those qualities which are observed more in women are feminine. >and if one can ,then it >is almost certainly from a personal/subjective point of view. The definitions and meanings of all words involves subjectivity. >IMHO the "boundary conditons" ,to use mathematical terminology, are not >universal and as such lead to variations in the "observations";thus we are >led to a chaotic "meaning" of the terms so expressed, and therefore have >no meaning at all. That no two individuals' understanding of any word is identical does not mean that there is not sufficient common understanding of them to have a language. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 23:04:23 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: The Three Aims - Newsbreaking Item Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970210050423.006ff888@mail.eden.com> At 09:00 PM 2/9/97 -0500, Ihle wrote: >I begrudge "The Three Aims" which were semi-officially presented as the >"inner side of The Three Objects." I think I should add my 2 cents worth on this. For those of you newbees to theos-l, this is the background to the "The Three Aims". TSA has a publication called The Theosophical Messenger which is sent to Members at Large -- those who are not attached to a lodge or a center. I believe it comes four times a year. It is usually a couple of pages long. Any member attached to a lodge can "subscribe" to it at an additional cost (I believe $7.50/year). At this time, the members at large constitute a significant percentage of the total membership. It is an official publication of TS which keeps at large members informed. In one of the past issues, there was an *unsigned* article on Theosophy/TS. In it, the unnamed author, (one wonders why the author did not put his/her name) discusses "The Three Aims" of the TS. In all these over 121 years of the existence of TS, we all have seen the Three Objects of TS. I have never read anywhere about the Three Aims. Since it has been published in an (official) publication of TSA, it appears to be officially sanctioned either overtly or covertly. Looking at the Three Aims statement, several questions arise. 1. Is this something that has been kept secret -- for 121 years and now being revealed with the oncoming of 21st millennium? If so it would be interesting to know more about its secret background. 2. Is this something that has been recently invented or discovered? If so by whom and how? May have a very interesting background to it. 3. Did any of the Real Founders notified any one in the Administrative Hierarchy that these are the real aims of TS as against the original Three Objects? If so when and who sent the msg and who received the msg and how? This would be a news breaking story for all T/theosophists around the world. 4. Or is this something that has been recently formulated to indicate the future direction of TS? This is very important. Because any one who reads it may come to the conclusion that in spite of the official profession of the three Objects, the *real* aims of the TS are the three aims postulated. If this is true, then we have to be honest and open and tell all the members about them very clearly. Since TS/TSA are tax exempt organizations, such an important change should be notified to the Internal Revenue Service. They would be very glad to hear. If these are the real aims of TS, then let us tell the world about them. Anyone reading the three aims may come to the conclusion that any one wanting to sign up and trained to be chelas etc of whoever is the guru better apply soon and join the TS without delay. There would be an unbelievable response. Just see the huge response that the other gurus have received in the USA. Of course once you are under training -- like in the military, trainee is are under total control. It makes life easy for administrators. 5. More importantly and seriously, were the aims discussed at the International General Council (which consists of the National Presidents/National Secretaries of all Sections) at any time in the past. If not why not? Items discussed at GC are generally shrouded in great mystery and great secrecy unless the big bosses chose to share crumbs of information. Lowly ordinary members normally are not told much, since they need not know about them. When have you seen anything published about the GC discussions? If anyone has any information on any of the above, please post a msg. I am sure the subscribers would find it interesting. If anyone has any more questions on any aspect I may have missed, please post your questions. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 23:12:07 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Olcott and HPB Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970210051207.0075012c@mail.eden.com> At 10:23 PM 2/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >Jerry Hehka-Ekins wrote > >> Around 1890 HPB said that the soul of the TS was already killed >> by Olcott and only a corpse remains. > >Jerry, do you have a reference for this? I'm interested for several >reasons. Thanks. In one of the early letters from one of the Adepts, there is a mention that HPB was terrrified of the future (I am quoting from memory). She could have forseen future troubles of TS which was her creation. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 23:22:39 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Olcott and HPB Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970210052239.006df508@mail.eden.com> At 12:14 AM 2/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 10:23 PM 2/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Jerry Hehka-Ekins wrote >> >>> Around 1890 HPB said that the soul of the TS was already killed >>> by Olcott and only a corpse remains. >> >>Jerry, do you have a reference for this? I'm interested for several >>reasons. Thanks. > >In one of the early letters from one of the Adepts, there is a mention that >HPB was terrrified of the future (I am quoting from memory). She could have >forseen future troubles of TS which was her creation. > >MKR > Need clarify. The last sentence should read She could have forseen future troubles of TS which (TS) was her creation. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon Feb 10 01:17:29 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: IQ TEST Message-ID: <199702100617.BAA23751@envirolink.org> Dr. A.M.Bain writes: >In message , Benjamin Mark Pybus >writes >>Also, are those who who >>have a lisp less intelligent? > >Thith ith not pothible. > >Alan >--------- Oh ALAN!!! I am THO ekthited!!! If you're coming out of the clothet, I gueth I will too. Thith ..ahem... this message was not intended to be a derogatory remark regarding any sexual orientation, however, due to the fact that it can not possibly be interpreted in any other way, it is. Please accept my apologies. I mean that ...I just couldn't help myself. I still can't. Oh well. I guess I'm an a**hole. --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:33:57 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [Broccoli] Message-ID: >How do you think I got to where I am today? >Broccoli Bain >>Eating broccoli got you to Cornwall?!? >>It's a good thing it was cauliflower, you might have ended up in Ulan >>Bator. Wouldn't standing on your head, turn you into a Brazil Nut? It be easier just to consider ourselves all as a fruit salad,with cream of course - for Alan's cat. Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:40:50 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 896 Message-ID: <199702101240.XAA27685@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> >>Christine >>Yes, when the fearful started to say, aren't you afraid of what they will do >>to you, I asked them just what they thought the TS could do to me for >>exercising my democratic right as a member. The answers included, psychic >>or mental attack, legal action, character assassination, and horror of >>horrors, throw me out of the society! Chuck >Being kicked out of such a bunch might be considered an honor. As far as >psychic an mental attack is concerned, for some inexplicable reason no one >has ever threatened me with that except for a seriously deranged >ex-girlfriend when she slipped on her medication. Just by way of clarification, I must say that no-one has actually threatened me with these things, except the chracter assassination which is well beyond threats. The fear of them is in the folklore, so if you look like stepping out of line your "friends" will warn you that "they" will do these things to you. >But speaking from some experience, I highly recommend having a reputation for >bad character. Then no one can attack it and it really keeps people out of >your hair. I had never thought of this one. So if I make myself as thoroughly obnoxious as possible (not hard in this environment, more a matter of ceasing the effort to remain civilised under duress) and put my hand up to every form of deviant behaviour known to man or woman, I will have nothing left to fear? Novel approach but consistent with the Castandeda approach if not the Mahatma's. ;-) Christine "K. Paul Johnson" wrote >>If one of the European independent Theosophical groups (and I >>don't know their approaches very well) decided to look for >>disaffected current and ex-Adyar members to form a North >>American section, there are probably hundreds who would be >>immediately interested in such a proposal. The situation looks >>ripe for some sort of competitor to Adyar to reach out to the >>many many people who have been alienated. Alan wrote >Existing TI members could do this NOW, if they have the will ... and >many of them are right there in North America NOW, like you, Paul! Do we need to do anything outside the TS? One fundamental occult concept which seems to be missing from the TS but which is used by AMORC, Alice Bailey, Dion Fortune etc is that of Egregore (group mind, sphere). Are people familiar with this concept (it is not the same as thought form)? According to this concept (simplistically), the TS (and every other grouping) has a group mind into which the members put all their ideas and out of which they draw their new ideas. So if I join the TS and come into harmony with it, my ideas enter the mind, and more importantly the strong ideas in the mind filter through into me. Through this mechanism, Iwill become either imbued with the positive throughts in the group mind and/or infected over time by the negative behaviours which are registered in the mind, even though I may not have possessed them (to any great degree) when I entered the group. Well we know which way this tends to work. But we can start to take control of this process rather than it taking control of us? We know the form that the negative behaviours take, and we can actively work to counteract them by avoiding them in ourselves and strengthening the positive behaviours. As an individual, I cannot do much to improve the state of the group mind, but a group can. This is one unexplored power of the InterNet I would like to examine. If there are sufficient of us united across the world doing something positive and optmistic, can we imbue the TS group mind with stronger positive attributes, which we do not apparently have the power to do as isolated individuals in our local lodges. Does anyone know what I am talking about - and what do you think? Christine >Jerry Hehka-Ekins wrote > >> Around 1890 HPB said that the soul of the TS was already killed >> by Olcott and only a corpse remains. > >Jerry, do you have a reference for this? I'm interested for several >reasons. Thanks. > Could anyone who has any information on printed references for predictions, visions etc regarding the TS, please let me know. Apart from the Pryse one mentioned before (I don't know if I can find the source for this) and now the Olcott one above, I have also heard that somewhere in Old Diary Leaves Olcott says that someone said that there would be no new revelations through the TS for 100 years from 1897, (which means the 100 years is now up). Does anyone know where I can find these three and any more which may be of interest? Christine From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:30:45 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: <199702101323.IAA12371@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins > > JHE > If there is, I would ask: can a member of the "hierarchy" affect > systemic change without being thrown out? This reminds me of > Henry Smith, who was the National President of TSA until he tried > to make a series of systemic changes in the organization. His > efforts were answered in 1965 he was pushed out of office amidst > scandal and gossip. > > CK > >Are they willing to work with local individuals and groups to > >help achieve it? > > JHE > Smith tried to work with individuals and groups both inside and > outside the TS. He had initial success, and TSA actually began > to briefly move in a positive direction, until the hierarchy > became threatened and threw him out. > What exactly made them feel threatened? Working with outside groups? Did they basically want to stay an elite group? -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 07:31:31 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: LCC - A good account Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970210133131.0068d074@mail.eden.com> Hi Following is one of the best summaries of the background of TS's involvement with LCC. It is excerpted from Emily Lutyens' book "Candles in the Sun". The summary is accurate and informative and comes from first hand. Enjoy reading it. MKR ======================= LCC BY this time Barbara and Robert had both lost interest in the Star movement, and once having broken away they swung very naturally in the opposite direction. That C.W.L. was much concerned about this change in them is shown in the following letter: 7 Raymond Road, Neutral Bay, Sydney July 24, 1917 Dear Lady Emily, I was very glad to receive your letter, for it is a long time since I heard from you. The news which you send about our dear young people is not all that we should like it to be; but let us hope that this is merely a stage through which both are passing. I am sure that they never ought to have had to pass through it,' for when I saw them they were both in quite an ideal condition. If they could have retained that state of mind and that enthusiasm, I think that both would have been Initiates by this time-certainly Barbara would. That was their opportunity; how I wish they could have taken it! I fully believe that they will come back to us; but how long will it take to undo the effects of this intermediate foolishness ? It is very sad; but we must hope for the best and never neglect an opportunity of helping them along in the right direction. Be sure that I shall do all that I can from this distance in the way of pouring loving thought upon them; though I fear that in their present state of mind they will not be very receptive. Please write to me often about them; I should like to have all the news there is, even though it may not always be quite what we would wish. With all heartiest good wishes and kindest regards, I am ever yours very sincerely, C. W. Leadbeater C.W.L. had gone in 1913 to live in Sydney, where he was now training another group of young people. In 1916 he had been made a Bishop of the Liberal Catholic Church, or Old Catholic Mission as it was then called, an offshoot of the Old Catholic Church. It did not receive its new name until 1918. As the Liberal Catholic Church plays a part in my story, I must give a very rough account of its history. In 1870 a considerable number of Catholics who would not subscribe to the new dogma of Papal infallibility were excommunicated, organized themselves into congregations and assumed the name of the Old Catholic Church. Through a Jansenist Bishop of Deventer in Holland they were able to hand on apostolic succession, and in 1908 Arnold Harris Mathew was consecrated at Utrecht as Bishop for Great Britain and Ireland. (He later seceded to Rome.) He handed on the succession to Bishop Willoughby, who, in his turn, consecrated James Ingall Wedgwood in 1916. Wedgwood, it may be remembered, had started the Temple of the Rosy Cross in 1912. Born in 1883, he was trained as an analytical chemist and studied organ construction. He was always interested in ceremonial. In 1904 he joined the T.S. and gave up his work as pupil to the organist of York Minster in order to lecture for Theosophy. He had studied for Holy Orders in the Anglican Church, but in 1913 he was ordained a priest of the Old Catholic Mission, as the English branch of the Old Catholic Church was now called. It had by this time completely detached itself from the parent Church at Utrecht. Three years later Wedgwood was consecrated Bishop. Soon after his consecration he went to Sydney, where on July 22nd 1916 he consecrated C.W.L. as Regionary Bishop for Australasia. On July 25th C.W.L. was writings to Mrs Besant: "Wedgwood has arrived and is in good health. His consecration to the Episcopate has had the unexpected result of putting him practically at the head of the Old Catholic movement as far as the British Empire is concerned, all his colleagues (except, I think, one) in it being Theosophists ready to work under his direction. This being so, he desires most earnestly to offer the movement to the World Teacher as one of the vehicles for His force, and a channel for the preparation for His Coming. I took him therefore to the LORD MAITREYA at the Festival, and He was graciously pleased to accept the offer, and to say that He thought the movement would fill a niche in the scheme, and would be useful to Him. From what He said I inferred that He Himself had so guided events as to produce this curious result, that a branch of the Catholic Church, having the Apostolic Succession in a form which cannot be questioned, should be entirely in the hands of Theosophists, who are willing and eager to do exactly as He wishes.... With His permission Wedgwood has consecrated me as a Bishop, on the understanding that I am at perfect liberty to wear my ordinary dress, and am in no way bound to perform any ecclesiastical ceremonies or take any outward part in the work unless I see it useful to do so, but am to act as intermediary between the LORD and this branch of His Church.... " An interesting little glimpse of occult ways came to me the night after my consecration. My own Masters referred very kindly to it, and spoke of the additional power to help that it had given to me; and then he remarked: 'You thought you had given up all prospect of a bishopric when you left your Church work thirty-two years ago to follow Upasika; but I may tell you that it would have been in this very year that you would have reached it if you had remained in your original work, so you have lost nothing except the emoluments and the social position, and have gained enormously in other ways. No one ever loses by serving Us!' That struck me as curious, for I had never thought of it in that way." (By the time I saw C.W.L. again, in 1925, he was wearing the dress of a Bishop on all occasions, and the work of the Church was absorbing most of his energies.) In September C.W.L. and Wedgwood were already engaged on a reconstruction of the Catholic Liturgy, and on September 5th he wrote again to Mrs Besant: "We wish for your presence every day while we are working at the reconstruction of the Catholic Ritual. Your splendid gift of language, your wonderful power of putting things poetically, would be invaluable to us. This thing ought to be well done-the Ritual of His Church, the only one combining the power of the ancient Church with a true Theosophical expression of the real relation between GOD and man; all the greatest poets of the age ought to be at work on it, not a couple of obscure though earnest gentlemen who have no special capacity for expression, whose productions are mildly commonplace." The Liturgy took more than two years to complete. The Church went through some stormy times but weathered all attacks, and by 1925 had taken root in four continents. It sent out no foreign missions, however "Believing that the main inner truths for which it stands are also taught in other forms and under other figures in the great religions of the East, the Liberal Catholic Church does not think it necessary or right to send missions to those who, in their view, are Christ's other sheep not of this fold.'' I myself became a member of the Liberal Catholic Church (or Old Catholic Mission as it was still called then) in May 1917. This seemed a natural step to take. When I became a Theosophist I did not cease to be a Christian; indeed Theosophy, while giving me an understanding of the truth underlying all faiths, broadened my Christian beliefs but in no way destroyed them, and I still delighted in the ritual of the services. The Liberal Catholic Church seemed to offer the perfect medium through which traditional Christianity might be enlarged to embrace the idea of a new manifestation of Christ. And at that time it seemed to accord perfectly with Krishna's apparent acceptance of Theosophical teaching. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:06:18 +0000 From: Alan Subject: Re: subscription Message-ID: In message <199702091921.RAA14723@phantom.pix.za>, Bob Thorsen writes >"Unsubscribe" Thank you, Bob > > >=========================================================== >== Bob Thorsen == >=========================================================== >Snailmail: P.O. Box 90499, Bertsham, South Africa, 2014 >E-Mail: bob.thorsen@pixie.co.za > bob.thorsen@bbs.fast.co.za >WWW page: http://www.pix.za//planet/bobspage.html >=========================================================== It is simpler and faster if you do this yourself. Send a message to listproc@vnet.net with the single line signoff theos-roots Leave the subject line empty, and omit your sig file. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:19:29 +0000 From: Alan Subject: 2 OUR DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS! Message-ID: ------- Forwarded message follows ------- 2 OUR DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS! The friends excuse we have not specified the address Ms. Alla Ter-Akopyan 8-2-154 Presnensky Val 123022 Moscow, Russua e-mail: avesta.7@relcom.ru We very wanted to know in which you to the country and your post address. We are representetives of the social organisation of spirit direction, called " The Community of Cosmic Conscience " . Our Community is the Moscow organisation. It was officially registrated on the 19th of November in 1993. The aim of the Community is the elimination of the spirit ignorance of people and turning their orientation to moral values. The means which help us to achieve the purpose are seminars, ectures, open evenings of the spirit direction, publication of books, the use of means of the mass media: radio , television, newspapers, magazines. In our work we base on theosophical works, on books about the Agni- Yoga , on books of Alice Bailey A , on works of great Danish cosmologist of the XXth century Martinus. We dont deny any spirit trend , leading to the Light. At our open evenings esoterists and scientists give lectures: the stage was given to members of the Orthodox Church and to the followers of Shri Chinmoi and of Krishna, to Mormons and Tantrists, and to representatives of the religion Bahai, to the members of the Community Babagy, and to the head of Pythagorian school. E t. c. We are for the friendship between different spirit trends, for the tolerable attitude to brothers undergoing the evolutional way. Awared of the vital necessity of the collaboration of all the light forces of the Univers we would also like to receive some informatin about your activities. As we are poor noncommercional organisation in Russia, the country very poor in the present day, and as far as in Russia not all the theosophical books have been published, we would be very glad to receive from you some books in English such as of Olkott, of Jage or such books of Alice Bailey A as "The Pupilship in the New Century", " The Unfinished Biography", The Materialisation of the Hierarchy". In exchange we could send you works of the leader of our Community Alla Ter-Akopyan (unfortunately they were published only in Russian) "The Agni-Yoga - Celestial Dictation", " The Agni- Yoga about Jesus the Christ", " Spaces of Four- measurements" , " The Doctine of Light for Children". We are interested in audio and video aid of occult, esoteric, meditational orientation. In particular, a documentary american film "The Ancients prophecies", based mainly on the predictions of Edgar Cayce. In Russia we have no possibility to get it , we would be very grateful to you for sending it to us. In general we are ready for any kinds of collaboration. We would be very glad to have you at our place, to discuss with you, to listen to lectures on subjects which you are interested in. We are deeply convinced that is necessary to combine our efforts for creation of the wideworld brotherhood. We wish the Light to your souls and fortitude in such a stormy time for the Planet. our e-mail : avesta.7@relcom.ru February, 11. 1997. Moscow. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 97 9:26:24 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Blame the Egregore Message-ID: <199702101426.JAA03620@leo.vsla.edu> Dear Christine and all, The egregore concept is an appealing one, but I'm not sure that it really offers more than an occultified version of sociology. That is, groups develop patterns that persist over time, and that are more or less productive/destructive to individual members. These patterns have a life of their own and are not readily modified. People who derive a sense of identity from group affiliation take on the attributes of the group. Whether or not the TS-Adyar is salvageable is a discussion that we can continue indefinitely. I see more evidence against the proposition than for it, going back a long time. As for starting an alternate group myself (re: Alan) I cannot think of anyone less suitable for the job. Being controversial in the way I am would be terribly counterproductive to launching an effort to offer an alternative. But if the opportunity to join such an alternative presents itself, I'll support it. Cheers, Paul PS-- Richard, The Quest previously had a very nice review of TMR so I think we can call it even with the latest development. Didn't occur to me to ask that they publish my rebuttal; if people go to DC's webpage they will presumably find a link to it. The oddest thing was not that the booklet got reviewed, but that it was the *lead* review; thus the "most important book of the month" for AT readers, as I understand the criterion for selecting a lead. That seems excessive, but not bothersome to me; rather flattering in fact. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:28:18 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: "God's plan, which is Evolution" [Theosophical Dogma] Message-ID: <970210140153_-1174114643@emout15.mail.aol.com> Alan, Remeber what Oswald Spengler said. "When one has an opportunity to offend people, one should do so." Besides, I have an image to live down to. Sorry it bugged you, but I just couldn't resist it, not with some of the other stuff that's been floating on this list. Chuck the Offensive Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:37:31 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 896 Message-ID: <970210142008_1314423103@emout10.mail.aol.com> Christine, In a message dated 97-02-10 07:49:03 EST, you write: >I had never thought of this one. So if I make myself as thoroughly >obnoxious as possible (not hard in this environment, more a matter of >ceasing the effort to remain civilised under duress) and put my hand up to >every form of deviant behaviour known to man or woman, I will have nothing >left to fear? Novel approach but consistent with the Castandeda approach if >not the Mahatma's. ;-) To a certain degree, that's what I've already done. I eat meat, wear lots of leather (by TS standards though less than some of my friends), write books about how to become psychic and make your neighbors think they they are being chased by large bugs (which scared the US powers-that-be nigh unto half to death in 1987 when the first one was published) and my sexual perversity is notorious. For some reason which mystifies me as well as everyone around me, I find that the people in the TS tend to like me and I get away with just about anything. I think it has something to do with something I discovered when I was in college. If you think of yourself as being "good" and try to be "good" people will come up with all sorts of things for you to do and not to do and generally bug the hell out of you. If, on the other hand, you reject the idea of "goodness" and let everyone know you reject it, they then leave you alone and just enjoy having you around because it breaks the monotony. Since everyone already knows in advance I'm going to both break all the rules and speak my mind they don't get upset when I do. In fact, I think there have been times when I've been used to say things that other folks were too polite to say. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 07:28:12 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: IQ TEST Message-ID: <199702102014.PAA15592@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: John Straughn > > I mean that ...I just couldn't help myself. I still can't. Oh well. I guess > I'm an a**hole. Have you forgotten? You're a carrot in a hole. Quick, here comes Bugs Bunny to pull you out! -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:07:25 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: IQ Test Message-ID: <199702102107.NAA17072@proxy1.ba.best.com> The Triaist Cabbage (or Carrot? or Woman?): >Oh ALAN!!! I am THO ekthited!!! If you're coming out of the clothet, I gueth > I will too. > >Thith ..ahem... this message was not intended to be a derogatory remark >regarding any sexual orientation, however, due to the fact that it can not >possibly be interpreted in any other way, it is. > >Please accept my apologies. > >I mean that ...I just couldn't help myself. I still can't. Oh well. I guess >I'm an a**hole. >--- >The Triaist John or Joan, I hope you won't be too annoyed with this. I, too, can't help myself sometimes. The pranksterish devil in me just has to come out now and then (to the detriment of people who know me, particularly on April's Fools). I am just giving a nice forewarning only because there's a chance you might be a woman. So here goes... Why say a**hole? Why not say a-s-s-hole? Fuck, I've heard all sorts of offensive things all my life. When I was a child in the U.S., I received all kinds of racial slurs and threats of violence from Caucasians and African-Americans. Thank goodness that I was just learning English then. When I became a woman I received leering looks, suggestive comments, and outright verbal attacks. As I was walking in the Boston subway terminal (where I got my schooling), a gang of young men spoke amongst themselves how they would like to fuck the Chinese chick. One of them yelled out at me in front of a crowd of people, "HEY YOU, I WANNA FUCK YOU, HEY..." He followed me part of the way as I quickly walked away. That was a scary incident, minor compared to what other women have gone through. Other minor incidences are men who think that they can touch my knee or hair just because I smiled back when they smiled at me. I used to easily give away smiles, but I learned to be careful about returning smiles. I learned to walk around gatherings of men, and I learned to not let my guard down when in public. Shit, we see jokes degrading women, homosexuals, and various races - taken lightly, so what's a little asshole? Hell, I'd be more than happy to create ASCII cows using offensive words for our amusement! Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:07:48 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: For you Star Wars fans Message-ID: <199702102107.NAA18015@proxy1.ba.best.com> TOP TEN REASONS WHY THE STAR WARS CHARACTERS WOULD KICK BUTT IN THE STAR TREK UNIVERSE -------------------------------------------- 10) In the Star Wars Universe weapons are rarely, if ever, set on "stun" 9) The Enterprise needs a huge engine room with an anti-matter unit and a crew of 20 just to go into warp --- The Millennium Falcon does the same thing with R2-D2 and a Wookie. 8) After resisting the Imperial torture droid and Darth Vader, Princess Leia still looked fresh and desirable --- After pithy Cardassian starvation torture, Picard looked like hell. 7) Picard pilots the Enterprise through asteroid belts at one-quarter impulse power --- Han Solo floors it. 6) Darth Vader could choke the entire Borg empire with one glance. 5) The Death Star doesn't care if a world is class "M" or not. 4) Luke Skywalker is not obsessed with sleeping with every alien he encounters. 3) Jabba the Hutt would eat Harry Mudd for trying to cut in on his action. 2) The Federation would have to attempt to liberate any ship named "Slave I". 1) One word: Lightsabers. "May the force be with you." Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:07:36 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: reply Message-ID: <199702102107.NAA17526@proxy1.ba.best.com> Ben, >>Thoa: >>What about those women just having the characteristics of strong women. >Aren't the characteristics of strong men and strong women exactly the same >in the last analysis, since we are all converging to same point, the human >monad. Thus, what is wrong with calling a strong woman a strong woman? Besides the fact that you give the woman the credit that she is a woman, you save a few words. Note: A strong woman vs. A strong woman strong as a man. >I agree that there may have been too much logic, structure, and >leadership.However, are you saying we should through pure creative >expression build structures that are chaotic (illogical), emotionally led >and are perfectly decentralised? Wipe your ass-king me for? No, no, no, no, no! I said balance. There may be some situations in which the other extreme of the pendulum may be needed, but I don't think this is the case. Do you doubt that those "opposing" qualities need each other, and that to deny the other side would be denying a strength? These qualities not only support each other but act as checks and balances for the other side. You have to learn to swim in the emotional, creative and unstructured water, or else you'll drown. >...but in the US it will cause chaotic behaviour... We love our saloon brawls and our wild sex! You can really get creative with a bungee cord. >We should build up our intellectual faculties to develop rational solutions. Did I say we should be dumb as door knobs? Have you ever heard of deliberate illogic? >The current of respect,rightly or wrongly, is alternating in nature not >simply because of men's emotional patterns but is I believe a natural >process of the divine law of periodicity being expressed in the human >kingdom which women can learn more about themselves from. Exsqueeze me? Baking powder? Eh? What is the divine law expressed in the human kingdom? >What is the "normal effective resistance of life" by the way? Effective resistance in combination with capacitive reactance is impedance... "of life"-I was being allegorical. For example, your car breaking down on a rainy morning or you received an e-mail response from me. >Vanity is related to selfishness. Vanity is also related to intent.Intent is >related to creative expression. Creative expression is the essence of either >involution or evolution. If the intention of the individual is to produce a >child regardless of the evolutionary goal then it is selfishness. If that >selfishness is due to moral behaviour which is perceived by the individual >as right but by the whole as unhelpful and preventing the evolutionary path >I call that vanity. Do I hear something similar to the Nazi belief of development of the Aryan race? What are we going to do, mate the best theosophical male with the best theosophical female? My Goddess, we don't want to lose the chance for a spiritual child! Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:44:03 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: HPB/Olcott/Prophasy/Future of TS Message-ID: <9702102344.AA22063@toto.csustan.edu> >Jerry Hehka-Ekins wrote > >> Around 1890 HPB said that the soul of the TS was already >>killed by Olcott and only a corpse remains. TR >Jerry, do you have a reference for this? I'm interested for >several reasons. Thanks. JHE I had an 1890 letter in mind when I paraphrased the above, but it did not come from this source. Rather it comes from an undated KH letter to HPB recorded in pencil by her, and published as letter no. 47 in LETTERS FROM THE MASTERS OF WISDOM: FIRST SERIES. The quote concerns Olcott's handling of the Coulomb conspiracy. He [Olcott] wants to know why? Because the Society has liberated itself from our grasp and influence and we have let it go--we make no unwilling slaves. He says he has saved it? He saved its body, but he allowed through sheer fear, to its soul to escape, and it is now a soulless corpse, a machine run so far well enough, but which will fall to pieces when he is gone. Out of the three objects the second alone is attended to, but it is no longer either a brotherhood, nor a body over the face of which broods the Spirit from beyond the Great Range. CK >Could anyone who has any information on printed references for >predictions, visions etc regarding the TS, please let me know. >Apart from the Pryse one mentioned before (I don't know if I can >find the source for this) and now the Olcott one above, I have >also heard that somewhere in Old Diary Leaves Olcott says that >someone said that there would be no new revelations through the >TS for 100 years from 1897, (which means the 100 years is now >up). > >Does anyone know where I can find these three and any more which >may be of interest? JHE There are lot of them. But relevant to the above you might look at the 1890 document I originally had in mind: "Why I Do Not Return to India." (BCW: 12, 156-67) It is an open letter HPB sent to India to be circulated among the Indian members. But it never was so circulated. The letter was never published until 1972, when it first came to light in Boris deZirkoff's magazine THEOSOPHIA. De Zirkoff called this letter "one of the most extraordinary and deeply pathetic documents ever penned by HPB". The letter is prophetic, thus deZirkoff further comments that "facts and attitudes in this letter afford a background of meaning against which may be measured various crises which took place in later years within the framework of the T.S." Perhaps someone with an OSC scanner might be interested in transcribing these two documents to theos-l. >> From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins >> >> JHE >> If there is, I would ask: can a member of the "hierarchy" >> affect systemic change without being thrown out? This reminds >> me of Henry Smith, who was the National President of TSA until >> he tried to make a series of systemic changes in the >> organization. His efforts were answered in 1965 he was pushed >> out of office amidst scandal and gossip. > CK > >Are they willing to work with local individuals and groups to > >help achieve it? JHE Not at that time, but I've seen some evidence that this is beginning to change. Since we started the networking movement in 1984, the different TS organizations began talking to each other. This was an important development that has improved the atmosphere considerably. Also, some of the innovations that Smith tried to pass are now accepted. See below. >> JHE >> Smith tried to work with individuals and groups both inside >> and outside the TS. He had initial success, and TSA actually >> began to briefly move in a positive direction, until the >> hierarchy became threatened and threw him out. AEB What exactly made them feel threatened? Working with outside groups? Did they basically want to stay an elite group? JHE Smith attempted to achieve several things. First, he was very interested in making Theosophy more accessible to the public. He wanted to launch the AT into a public magazine with high quality articles particularly from Theosophists with scientific backgrounds. So he began to publish special issues of the AT on special subjects. These ideas were supported by the administration, and when Joy Mills replaced Smith, she continued these special issues. What was not supported was Smiths' reaching out to the other Theosophical traditions to work with him in this effort. For instance, Smith began working with a well known ULT Theosophist and engineer named Victor Endersby. Smith had Endersby publish articles in the AT on Theosophy and Science. It was very uncomfortable for the administration, to have Smith involving outsiders who did not believe as the Adyar TS hierarchy believes. Of course, Endersby was pushed out once they got rid of Smith. Smith was also interested in having the TS acknowledge W.Q. Judge as one of the founders of the TS, and tried to hang a picture of Judge at the Olcott headquarters. This outraged the Board at the time, and the picture was immediately taken down. Ten years later (1975), International President, John Coates, opened the centenary of the TS and acknowledged Judge to be a founder. Since then, a picture of Judge has been hung at Olcott. But in 1980, Radha Burnier became International President. Radha did not support Coates' endorsement of Judge, so to this day, Judge is not included as a founder on the Adyar TS letterhead. The Judge picture incident may seem silly now. I have noticed that members who have joined since 1985 or so don't understand how it could have been an issue. They don't realize how much tighter things were twenty years ago. An acknowledgement of Judge had come to symbolize a recognition of the other Theosophical Organizations. This was not desirable to the hierarchy. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:36:13 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: IQ TEST Message-ID: In message <199702100617.BAA23751@envirolink.org>, John Straughn writes >I mean that ...I just couldn't help myself. I still can't. Oh well. I guess >I'm an a**hole. >--- >The Triaist .. if the carrot fits ... (or fitth) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:35:17 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Angels Message-ID: <19970211013931.AAA27708@JerrySchueler> >I was just curious if (T)heosophists or even theosophists generally >accepted the idea behind the "guardian angel". I do not think that either Theosophists or theosophists believe in guardian angels as you describe them (especially in the sense of the current TV show, which is a lot of fun, but hardly what I would call theosophical). I believe in Angels as denizens of the various subtle cosmic planes and subplanes. But the idea of a personal guardian angel looking out for our best interests as God's messenger is not theosophical. Our true guardian angel is own own inner god, our divine Self, which communicates to us all the time via the intuition. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:38:50 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: The Sole Truth Message-ID: <19970211013931.AAB27708@JerrySchueler> >For one reason or another theosophical societies have the tendency >to think that they possess the sole truth, which is absurd! I can speak with some authority on this one--Pasadena TS does NOT do this, at all. Grace is very strong on the idea that truth is universal, and that the TS is only one view of it. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:51:39 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Justice Message-ID: <19970211015852.AAA6699@JerrySchueler> >If your motive is vengence, then you are NOT following Judaic Law. If >your motive is justice, then it is: "Justice, justice, shalt thou >follow". If your motive is justice, then you are wrong, wrong, and dangerous to boot. The phrase "vengence is mine" could as well be "justice is mine." As a TS-type person, it is better to let one's own karma reap "justice" then to think you know what is just and take it upon yourself to meet it out. Every war has at least two sides, and each side believes it is in the right, with God and justice on its side. If justice is really your motive, then you will do nothing, and let karma work it out. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:02:29 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 896 Message-ID: <199702110234.VAA23793@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > >. . . and my sexual perversity is > notorious. So true. There's even a small poster tacked to the bulletin board outside the Olcott library proclaiming just that fact. It has very interesting computer clip art on it, too. That must be the reason there's always such a crowd by the water cooler. For some reason which mystifies me as well as everyone around me, > I find that the people in the TS tend to like me and I get away with just > about anything. > It's breaks the monotony. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:05:51 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [reply] Message-ID: Thoa, >Did I say we should be dumb as door knobs? Have you ever heard of >deliberate illogic? I have not. Please enlighten. Perhaps what I meant to say about the "current of respect alternating" was that every woman looks out into her own reality, and perceives the summation of all what her "bodies" are telling her is the case at any particular moment in space-time-thought. She may believe that the respect is alternating but she is only believing what her mind set is describing/mirroring to her ego relative to actual events as they occur.Whatever her perceptions of the past were they will colour her present, and potentially future, realities.If her preconceptions persist they will surely become part of her ever periodic existence. >Do I hear something similar to the Nazi belief of development of the Aryan >race? What are you going to do, mate the best theosophical male with the best theosophical female? My Goddess, we don't want to lose the chance for a spiritual child! You may hear it, I could not possibly comment. With respect to your other comment I am only sad that I had not the opportunity to be born into a theosophical family. It is my belief that those who are highly spiritually evolved souls [not referring to myself ofcourse] need to be in an environment where the highest aspirations are in place for the soul to reach its full potential.Do you not agree that one should, if one is given the opportunity, sacrifice one's own spiritual development for the birth of a more evolved soul who can perhaps spread more light into the world than oneself? By the way, I would like to add that perhaps some of my recent responses have perhaps been a little obtuse, dare I say it even illogical, at times but I think that that is because I have never felt so emotionally charged in my life. I have never been attacked by a feminist before and it takes a little time to get used to it.Please forgive me. You have almost made me out to be a fascist pig who thinks that women are a rather unfortunate aspect to the human family. I do NOT hold such ideas. However, being beseiged by such a personality brings out the protective aspect towards my "maleness". Perhaps if you toned down your emotional outbursts I would be able to sound more logical in my reasoning.Believe it or not, I am more an intuitive person than an intellectual, and so I can get in touch my feelings v. easily - it means also that I am quite sensitive! Please be kind. Love and Light Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:14:46 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Excommunication - Canadian Section Part 1 of 2 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970211051446.00681268@mail.eden.com> Some years ago the Charter of Canadian Section was cancelled. This is not the first time that a Section's Charter has been cancelled. Usually members outside the affected country generally does not know of such actions until years later. There have been discussions about Canadian Section. Here is an excerpt from the Canadian Theosophist, July-August 1992, which may interest some of you. ====================== Excerpted from Canadian Theosophist --JULY-AUG., 1992 [The following article is a slightly revised version of a letter sent earlier to all members of the Theosophical Society in Canada, and presented here for the information of our non member readers.] The T.S. in Canada has been excommunicated on Jan. 1, 1992 from Adyar, by Adyar. Whatever ties or links of affiliation we have had with Adyar have now been completely severed. Adyar claims that we did the "disassociating", but it must be clearly understood from the outset, and which will be shown hereunder, that Adyar did this excommunication or disassociating, and from the beginning, last fall (1991 ) did nothing else with respect to us but to accomplish the breaking of all ties with us, and, to date of preparing this for publication late May, has done nothing but maintain the break. I was not informed of the break until Feb. 12/ 92, in a very short letter from the International Secretary, Mr. Hugh Gray. I have had nothing further directly from Adyar since. I will now give the events which led up to this affair. At the last annual meeting of our members, in September 1991, we amended our by-laws as per a notice sent to all members in August, which also had explanations for the changes. The amendments were passed at the meeting, with no problem. The next legal step for me was to submit these changes to the Canadian Government for approval. Since we are a federally chartered corporation, we are subject to the Canada Corporations Act. The government has the last say in all matters. Sometime in the fall, a Western E.S. leader sent a copy of the by-law changes to Adyar, exactly as I predicted would be done. This person in the past, regarded another change our Board had proposed as being a step to break with Adyar, which was completely illogical, and never thought of or contemplated by our Board. One can assume that a similar fear was operative last fall. No break with Adyar was contemplated at any time by our Board, in the year that it took to work on the by-law changes, nor were any breaks suggested in the by-law changes, and as has been stated publicly, a break with Adyar cannot be done by us through those by-law changes, it is entirely the wrong method, Ä but Adyar can and did break from us, with one of the by-law changes as the excuse. I have no doubt but that a letter accompanied those by-law changes on their trip to Adyar, and can safely surmise that some alarm was expressed. Kindly note that Adyar did not write to me upon getting those things from our western E.S. leader, to ask for details, or clarification, or if the western E.S. leader was mistaken as to our intent. I repeat: to this day, late May, as I rewrite this, I have had nothing directly from Adyar except the brief letter received mid Feb. that told us that the break was in effect. I did not send a copy of the by-law changes to Adyar last fall for several reasons: 1. We are not required to do so by law; 2. Adyar has no say whatsoever in the promulgation or approval of our by-laws as a Canadian Corporation; and to this end, but ignored so far by Adyar, their Rules make an allowance where the laws of another country should cause an exception to be made to the application of their Rules. 3. I would never send a copy of the by-laws as passed by our annual meeting to Adyar, or anywhere, until the Canadian Government had approved them. Until the Canadian Government passes judgment, the bylaws amendment as passed by our members is but a memorandum of intent lo change. I received the Government's approval (except for a minor point) on the same day I received the notice of excommunication from Adyar, Feb. 12,1992. 4. If there is autonomy of Sections, as is claimed, there is no need to send copies of by-laws, and any such requirement in Adyar's Rules should be deleted as being contradictory to autonomy. Mrs. Burnier, in an indirect letter, claims that she could not and would not act on our situation until the General Council met in late Dec. 1991. Fine, but she or co-workers should still have written to me for clarification of intent. Again, the Feb. letter was the only one ever received. Much later, writing through an intermediary, Mrs. B. states that we failed to send a copy of the by-law changes, and tends to say that this might be a forgivable fault, as long as the document is amended to her (or her Council's) liking. Earlier, in February, I wrote to Hugh Gray stating what is largely covered in the previous paragraph, above, to wit: Adyar does not have any legal say in our by-laws. Conveniently overlooked by Adyar is the fact that they did get a copy of the by-law changes, as I knew they would, in a manner that saved us the postage. But, as I have pointed out earlier here, such a copy did not yet have the approval of the Can. Government, and therefore had no validity then. On getting the by-law changes last fall, the Adyar vice president, who had the task of examining all by-laws of all sections, spotted where we had deleted the phrase "parent society" and this deleting was found objectionable by Adyar. The "parent society" mention was deleted for reasons given to all our Canadian members last August in the by-law change notice. I reprint the (August) reason here: "Old wording creates a conflict position with Corporations Act, as deleted word suggests another body owning controlling interest, such as a majority of shares, which is not the case. Only members shall have an interest in this corporation which is without shareholders. This change in no way affects our affiliation with any other T.S. organization." (I should have added then, "unless the other organizations decide to change our affiliation "). The "parent society" was left out and should remain out for a number of other reasons: 1. It is not required to be in by-laws by Adyar's Rules. No doubt they will amend this oversight in their inevitable Rules changes for this year. 2. It is not required by Canadian law. 3. There is no such thing as a, or the, "parent society" and for this we have the authority of H.P. Blavatsky and W.Q. Judge, whose statements will be quoted below. 4. The words "parent society" should never have been, and need not have been, put in the by-laws in the first place, 17 years ago. Had this been left out, nothing in that respect could have been noticed last fall, and this present situation would not have come about. 5. There is supposed to be autonomy of lodges and Sections. This is stated by Blavatsky and Besant. One finds it also in various T.S. magazines, and if not hypocrisy, should therefore be upheld without exceptions by Adyar. Recent history shows that it has not been upheld. Blavatsky said "There is no longer a "Parent Society"; it is abolished and replaced by an aggregate body of Theosophical Societies, all autonomous .." (H.P.B. C.W. Vol. Xl, p. 381). Wm. Q. Judge, when asked about "Parent Theosophical Society, and ... the meaning of the term, and to what is it applied?" answered: "At present there is no meaning in the name, and its use a source of error; it should never have been used. If there is in existence a"Parent Society", then it is the Aryan [Theosophical Society] because its charter members are the only ones left here of the first branch ever formed, while Mme. Blavatsky and Col. Olcott are the founders of this branch, which became the Aryan after their departure. But as the whole Society is composed of its branches and unattached members, and as each person who joins either through a Branch or at large - thereby becomes a member of the whole Society, there can be no "parent Society." It is advisable that this term be discarded altogether, as it has no reason for its existence, and no meaning in its use." (From a reprint in "Echoes of the Orient", The Writings of William Q. Judge, Vol. II, p.440.) Annie Besant also stated that "A National Society, or Section is autonomous, ..." Theosophy came to Canada via A.E.S. Smythe 101 years ago. Smythe emigrated to Canada from Ireland, and on the boat he met W.Q. Judge, who convinced him of the merits of Theosophy. Our first charter came via Judge, as head of the American Section then. Judge split with Besant and aligned elsewhere. Besides what H.P.B. and Judge had to say about "parent society" there is another problem, and valid reason for not using this phrase: if there were a "parent society" for the T.S. in Canada, then is it the Aryan T.S. (which no longer exists) or the theosophical organization that Judge shifted to after his split, or the present T.S. in America, (which group took over from Judge, and from which the T.S. in Canada derived in 1919)? One has only one real parent (or in biology, two). A foster parent is not a real parent. At best, Adyar could be only a foster parent. We in Canada have always leaned to H.P.B. for an authority, so there is no parent society and therefore no foster parent. A.E.S. Smythe always held, as with Judge, his mentor, that a Section and a lodge was autonomous with a loose affiliation with other like theosophical groups, and all the Canadian General Secretaries have always been given this rule of Smythe's, and upheld it, often to the chagrin of those in far places over the past 101 years, and with this tradition, I have found no reason to take a different path, and in this current affair, I have but followed Smythe's footsteps. When I received the letter, Feb. 1 12th that noted our excommunication, I immediately sent off a letter of explanation of our actions, said that there was never any intent by our Board via the by-law changes to break from Adyar, suggested that they had acted rashly on the fear mongering information from their E.S. Canadian informant, I acknowledged that the break was in place, at Adyar's doing, and invited/awaited a reply, which never came. I wanted to allow them the 24 days for mail each way plus some time to further discuss this matter among themselves, before breaking the news to our members. I restate that Adyar has done nothing other than to make this break from us, commencing last fall, and to maintain it. They will claim otherwise, when it appears unflattering to appear to have done what they did. They have also been apprised of H.P.B.'s stand on "parent society". --------------- end of part 1 of 2 ------------- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:14:50 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Excommunication - Canadian Section Part 2 of 2 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970211051450.0068f1c8@mail.eden.com> Excerpted from Canadian Theosophist - July-August 1992 ----------------Begin part 2 of 2 ------------------- I have received an inkling, indirectly, by a copy of a letter from Mrs. Burnier to an intermediary, probably for my consumption. The gist of this is that if we were to apply on bended knee, and subjugate our rights to Adyar's desires for our by-law content, then they might reconsider mending the break. Contractual subservience too, would be required, to get around the problems inherent in our being a corporation. These previous sentences have been reinforced again, by another letter from "over there" which was again for my benefit, and which the required subservience in by-laws and any other matters deemed necessary, was repeated as a prerequisite before any rejoining could take place. I heard rumours that Adyar had asked or instructed that our advertisement in The Quest" magazine be stopped. So much for rumours. Within two days of hearing of this, (and five days after getting the excommunication letter from Adyar), I had a phone call from the company that looks after advertising for various magazines, including "The Quest". He stated as follows, "I have been requested to advise you by The Quest" magazine, that on orders from headquarters in India, the T.S. in America. cannot further permit your ad to appear in "The Quest" magazine". (*The T.S. in America owns and publishes that magazine.) I have obtained the name of the western E.S. leader who "went snitching to mama". As I knew who this was before, from prediction, this was but a confirmation. I learned that the Canadian Federation T.S. was advising some lodges of the excommunication and suggesting that these lodges join up with the Federation. I then received a copy of a letter being sent out by the Federation, which turns out to be written by Radha Burnier to Mr. H. Jackson. The letter adds "... It is the wish of the General Council to encourage the growth of the Canadian Federation in every way." So we are out, there was never anything done "over there" but to put us out and keep us out. This letter was dated Feb. 24, 1992. Adyar has time to write to the Federation, fax to Wheaton, and no doubt write to other loyal E.S. dominated sections, but has no time or courtesy to reply to my letter of Feb. 15/92. Since they want us out, why should we go against Adyar's wishes? Thus I say, out we are, and out we should stay. We will not be alone in this, as others have separated, or been separated in the past, the next last to us was Denmark. I have always held as despicable the gentle art of shunning as practiced by certain "Christian" sects when one or more of their fold leaves. There have been fears expressed to me, and already signs that this could or is happening against the members of the T.S. in Canada. If it does, I say that it is a good thing, because it indicates the level of development of the person doing the shunning, as well of that of who orders the shunning, so it would be no loss to us by losing any former contact with a shunner. THE IMPLICATIONS AND FUTURE PATH Each member should make up his or her mind as to whether they want to stay with this now independent theosophical society, the T.S. in Canada, or if the umbilical cord with Adyar is deemed essential, as it might be for all E.S. members, to attach themselves with the Federation forthwith, (or form a 3rd group, if the Federation is not acceptable). I could never understand why the T.S. in Canada did not themselves make a break years ago, such as in the '20's when the Federation split-off was done. We have historically always "been a thorn in the side of Adyar" critical when wrong or folly appeared. A.E.S. Smythe in the twenties was highly critical of distortions of the original teachings being put into the E.S. by the Leadbeater-Besant duo, and the "Christ is coming through Krishnamurti" farce. A number of members disagreed with Smythe, so the Canadian Federation was formed, to cater to the needs of the E.S., who disagreed with Smythe et. al. Now we have the opportunity, handed to us on a platter, of having two organizations to cater to the two basic desires: the T.S. in Canada, H.P.B. and Judge based in origins and fairly steadily upheld over the years; and the Federation, E.S. based with Adyar and Outer Head linkage and obedience to E.S. Oath. Make a choice, and let us all go onwards in our preferred ways. There is little compatibility, if any, with what the E.S. now stands for, and basic theosophy and the desire of many for autonomy. We have been separated from Adyar since Jan. 1 st, 1992. I have noticed nothing different in our operations nor in my life, theosophical or otherwise prior to learning of the excommunication on Feb. 12th, nor since. This article brings the information to many of you for the first time. Has your life been different since Jan. 1, 1992? I think not. I have been asked many times, going back years, "What is the benefit, if any, of being attached to Adyar?" I have never been able to answer this - that is, the "benefit" part. There is none. Yet some, especially the E.S. members, feel that there is, and that is their privilegeÄjust do not push this at those who think otherwise. Now we have a choice: the independent group or the Adyar linked group. This choice I think, now, is fair and just, and should settle the long standing fuss with the E.S. based Federation plus the E.S. members in our midst, and those of us who disliked what crept into the E.S. (see "The Elder Brother" by G. Tillett) and have always stood aloof and against that E.S. Then there are the very many of our members who have lime or no knowledge that Adyar exists, and know nothing of the E.S. and its history. That group will, I hope, remain as our members. (The Tilled book is part of our Home Study Course, and it can be purchased from our Edmonton Lodge, and from a bookseller in California.) The choice is to remain in a democratic autonomous society, or go to a Adyarian linked society under their current autocratic rule. For us to return, I remind you, bended knee is required, surrender of right to make autonomous decisions as to our by-laws etc., and contractural subservience to Adyar. I stated to our Board meeting last September, that I would never instigate a break with Adyar, and I added that if any such break were to occur, it probably would be started by Adyar, who had much more experience in this sort of thing, such as the recent Denmark Affair. How right I was! *** I do hope that when this rite of excommunication was done, that they used correct and proper procedure, with: Ring the bell, Close the Book, Out the candle. [ Not necessarily in that order.] ---------------------- EDITORIAL (Abridged) Earlier in this issue, I have given the story of our Excommunication by Adyar. When I first opened and read their letter, last February, my first reaction was "How stupid can they get?" I had spent much of my time in 35 years in business checking with others or answering where others were checking with me as to intent of instructions in various business matters. One always checks and double checks to minimize errors, to retain clients and provide a reliable service. This is a business basic, checking meaning and intent. I referred this and the excommunication fact to a respected Director on my Board, and his reply was that Adyar has done some amazing things and here was another example. The persons last fall who sent the copy of by-law changes to Adyar, had earlier shown both fear of change in another matter, (as well as the by-law changes) and misread in the change proposals an additional intent to break from their most desired Adyar, where there was no such intent at all, an act of gross misinterpretation. By acting on this unwarranted fear, these two persons, ironically enough, caused the break away, done this time by their beloved Adyar, not by the Executive here. So their fear both became and caused a self-fulfilling prophesy. By reacting without checking, the Adyar council "Jumped the gun, . . ." as a national president in a neighbouring country said to me. There is nothing wrong with our by-law changes. The revisions were worked on for a year by members of our Board with experience in business matters, including by-laws. As was said in the set of explanations sent to all our members prior to the Annual Meeting, the by-law revisions were but to reflect reality; things change over time, so should our by-laws, to reflect our evolution. Looking at the Minutes of Adyar's Dec.Jan. Council meeting, one notes an undertone of complaint that the re-emerging Russian theosophical movement has proceeded without asking permission from Adyar, has members that are not registered with Adyar, nor had Adyar been asked to charter Russian lodges, and the Russians operate on Rules not presented to Adyar for approval. The Russian groups would be wise to stay separate. Rather than be glad that theosophy can function in Russia again, there seems to be that additional compulsion that all must be under the Adyarian wing/thumb (choose one). There we have the authoritarian tendency that has become the bad habit. For the cause of our break, it is easy to see a resentment for some remarks earlier in these columns, coupled with an autocratic tendency. The reasons are easy to see, but I do not intend to give a lesson in psychology here. The personality problems of some on the General Council should not be the problems of national Sections and lodges. We are better off separated. After the excommunication notification was sent to our members, I expected some letters to come in what I would call the spontaneity period, where people pick up pen to write their immediate reactions and comments to the news. I had intended to give a series of one liner excerpts here, from a broad section of these letters, but I then decided not to: why rub salt in wounded feelings over there. The general tone of the letters was "Congratulations, it should have happened sooner, good riddance," to a few showing the closest degree of sympathy with Adyar, if one could call it that, with three "sad, that Adyar, with Brotherhood as a first Object, would take such act ion." No one said that we had better get back in the fold. (These quotes are a composite of the general tone of letters received.) A question was asked at a lodge, before the break was known to anyone here, "What do we need Adyar for?" No one could answer this, because there is no need. We can function fine on our own as others have done. Let the current dust settle, and those few who want a link with Adyar join the Canadian Federation of Theosophists, or such other group that suits. The worst so far that has come into my life as a result of this break is that my farm gate fell off its hinges recently. What has happened in your life from this break? That we and other theosophical groups of whatever affiliation or no affiliation remain constant to the Objects of the Theosophical Movement, as they exist now, is the important thing, and the true spirit of the Movement. Connections and associations are of minor to no importance, especially if the connection means being treated as children incapable of handling their own affairs, and catering to the autocratic tendencies that have come in. The centre of our Movement should be the circumference; this statement is not an oxymoron. What matters is that we are aligned and allied with the "Trans Himalayan Hierarchy of Masters": to attach importance with a worldly place or power is an error both of judgment and of focus of attention. Place worshipping is an error to be grown out of, not into, be it the Vatican, Mecca, or Adyar. If Adyar is to control the by-laws of Sections, as they seem to want to do, then their Rules should (but do not) contain a full set of rigid guides for such purposes, if the resultant "acceptable" Sections' by-laws are not to seem to be bent or controlled by whatever is the current prevailing whim of the Adyar Council. The objection to no mention of Parent society is just such a whim, might not have been the whim of a Council in the past, or in the future with other members. Pouncing on "no parent society" when the Rules have no such requirement is specious, and one looks to other reasons as the real reasons, if reason is to be assumed to have prevailed on Jan. 1, 1992. I would be interested to know how many other Sections and lodges in the world are also deficient in that they did not have "parent society" in their bylaws. Adyar will have to amend their Rules to make this mention in by-laws a must. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:45:29 -0500 From: Ken Malkin Subject: Enough Message-ID: <32FFF969.3D63@gil.net> Dear Bart, OK, you win, your logic is too sound to fight. Clap trap positions aside, you have out gunned me, headed me off at the pass, and ONE the day ! Nonsense, total nonsense Bart pithy reality R NOT US! Perhaps we'll chat again when we can communicate in a common language, later when there is something to share My peace profound and other good things, Ken Malkin ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:55:30 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Re: Angels Message-ID: <330009CE.3716@withoutwalls.com> >Our true guardian angel is own own inner god, our divine Self, which >communicates to us all the time via the intuition. Or any act of love. -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:58:01 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: tongue in cheek Message-ID: <33000A65.2D4A@withoutwalls.com> I don't know about you, but I think it's time for Doss to post Krishnamurti's famous "Truth is a Pathless Land" speech. -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:01:38 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Feminism Message-ID: <199702110601.WAA22412@proxy1.ba.best.com> A dear friend of mine, Marty Nash, e-mailed me her definition of feminism: Marty: >When I was 23 my definition of a feminist was one who believed in >women's equality and was ready to work for it. >Today My definition is one who believes women hold up half the sky in a >very special way. Although both men and women can develop their yin and >yang powers, women have a special intuitiveness, and the ultimate >creativity. A feminist will value these qualities, see them as beautiful >and will help other women to value them also. She will walk proudly and >know she is beautiful. She will not accept the value the patriachy >places on women. Through her eyes the men around her will begin to see >this also. Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:12:36 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 898 Message-ID: <199702110812.TAA21537@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> Paul wrote >Dear Christine and all, > >The egregore concept is an appealing one, but I'm not sure that >it really offers more than an occultified version of >sociology. That is, groups develop patterns that persist over >time, and that are more or less productive/destructive to >individual members. These patterns have a life of their own >and are not readily modified. People who derive a sense of >identity from group affiliation take on the attributes of the >group. Agreed, but it implies that we can change things by working on a mind as well as exoteric level - that is, by fixing ourselves we can influence the group without actually doing anything with or to the group apart from staying "in" it. >Whether or not the TS-Adyar is salvageable is a discussion that >we can continue indefinitely. I see more evidence against the >proposition than for it, going back a long time. Unfortunately so do I. My inner child is beginning to cry - "please don't do this to me any more". >As for starting an alternate group myself (re: Alan) I cannot think >of anyone less suitable for the job. Being controversial in >the way I am would be terribly counterproductive to launching >an effort to offer an alternative. But if the opportunity to >join such an alternative presents itself, I'll support it. I don't agree with you here. Being a published author puts you in a unique position, particularly as your book expressed a modern approach to matters mystical which seems to appeal greatly to the younger generation and to the educated. My peer group here received your book, and The Theosophcial Enlightenment, which came out at about the same time, with a sigh of relief - "thank goodness for an intelligent approach at last" - and with some excitement - "does this mean there is some future for this organisation". Whatever a person thinks about the conclusions you reached (I found them fun, but was not in a position to validate them one way or another), it is the intelligent approach which can perhaps lay some groundrules for Theosophy into the future. I for one am not interested in 19th century methodologies, approaches and language which have long been superceded, or in and Indian style servility. I have suggested to Alan that we may use TI-l for some kind of brainstorm on all of this. What do you think? On a slight tangent, does anyone know the real basis of the dispute between Sinnet and Anna Kingsford in England. I have not been able to find out much about it (from the Anna Kingsford side), but have speculated that what we had was a little Hindu (used very loosely) vs Hermetic (used even more loosely) war here, and that it might be the basis of most of the disputes since then, with Adyar basically maintaining the Hindu approach and all those of naturally Hermetic inclinations (oh my - please don't ask me to explain what these are) being treated to the same as Anna Kingsford. I have not researched this though (my feminist tendencies preclude prolonged reading of the Mahatma letters) - so I could be completely off-beam. Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:16:54 -0500 (EST) From: DSArthur@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 898 Message-ID: <970211111652_2060110407@emout17.mail.aol.com> Jerry: Reference the last sentence of your "Angels" comments: Thus have I also heard dsarthur@aol.com Dennis ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:05:21 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 896 Message-ID: <970211140511_1828188707@emout05.mail.aol.com> Ann, >So true. There's even a small poster tacked to the bulletin board outside the Olcott library proclaiming just that fact. It has very interesting computer clip art on it, too. That must be the reason there's always such a crowd by the water cooler. Good Lord!!! I thought I had all the negatives! Unless it's a still from that video I made... Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:10:47 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: tongue in cheek Message-ID: <970211141047_1678035368@emout20.mail.aol.com> > I don't know about you, but I think it's time for Doss to post Krishnamurti's famous "Truth is a Pathless Land" speech. OH NO!!! NOT THAT!!! NOT AGAIN!!! :) Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:17:02 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 898 Message-ID: <970211141507_618797592@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-11 07:39:31 EST, you write: > >On a slight tangent, does anyone know the real basis of the dispute between >Sinnet and Anna Kingsford in England. I have not been able to find out much >about it (from the Anna Kingsford side), but have speculated that what we >had was a little Hindu (used very loosely) vs Hermetic (used even more >loosely) war here, and that it might be the basis of most of the disputes >since then, with Adyar basically maintaining the Hindu approach and all >those of naturally Hermetic inclinations (oh my - please don't ask me to >explain what these are) being treated to the same as Anna Kingsford. I have >not researched this though (my feminist tendencies preclude prolonged >reading of the Mahatma letters) - so I could be completely off-beam. > >Christine I've always had a sneaking suspicion that it related more to the drug of choice used by the participants (hashish by Sinnet, laudanum by Kingsford) than any serious philosophical dispute. On the other hand, there was the rather embarrassing statement by Kingsford that she was going to use psychic stuff to kill Louis Pasteur and the press got a hold of it. That might have set Sinnet off. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:26:14 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: tongue in cheek Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, Mark Kusek wrote: > I don't know about you, but I think it's time for Doss to post > Krishnamurti's famous "Truth is a Pathless Land" speech. > > -------- Mark: Are your really serious? MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:29:39 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 898 Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, C Kent wrote: > On a slight tangent, does anyone know the real basis of the dispute between > Sinnet and Anna Kingsford in England. I have not been able to find out much > about it (from the Anna Kingsford side), but have speculated that what we > had was a little Hindu (used very loosely) vs Hermetic (used even more > loosely) war here, and that it might be the basis of most of the disputes > since then, with Adyar basically maintaining the Hindu approach and all > those of naturally Hermetic inclinations (oh my - please don't ask me to > explain what these are) being treated to the same as Anna Kingsford. I have > not researched this though (my feminist tendencies preclude prolonged > reading of the Mahatma letters) - so I could be completely off-beam. > > Christine ML may be one of the best sources. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:41:17 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Feminism Message-ID: <199702112055.PAA03380@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Thoa Tran > > A dear friend of mine, Marty Nash, e-mailed me her definition of feminism: > > Marty: > >When I was 23 my definition of a feminist was one who believed in > >women's equality and was ready to work for it. > > >Today My definition is one who believes women hold up half the sky in a > >very special way. Although both men and women can develop their yin and > >yang powers, women have a special intuitiveness, and the ultimate > >creativity. A feminist will value these qualities, see them as beautiful > >and will help other women to value them also. She will walk proudly and > >know she is beautiful. She will not accept the value the patriachy > >places on women. Through her eyes the men around her will begin to see > >this also. > I have no argument with that, but I think it is also going to take personal assertiveness, training in the use of various weapons and martial arts, plus a good lawyer, in case one wants to sue for discrimination. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:41:23 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: [reply] Message-ID: <199702112055.PAA03362@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Benjamin Mark Pybus > > You may hear it, I could not possibly comment. With respect to your other > comment I am only sad that I had not the opportunity to be born into a > theosophical family. It is my belief that those who are highly spiritually > evolved souls [not referring to myself ofcourse] need to be in an environment > where the highest aspirations are in place for the soul to reach its full > potential.Do you not agree that one should, if one is given the opportunity, > sacrifice one's own spiritual development for the birth of a more evolved > soul who can perhaps spread more light into the world than oneself? > In my experience, one is in the environment that is suited to the work of that incarnation. It may be theosophical environment or one that is far from that. The memories and inclinations will lead us back to why came here for, even if we have to climb high barriers. I have seen some who were born into theosophical families and never take it up. Then, for myself, my grandparents and mother got off the boat at Ellis Island in the 20's and were devout Catholics. I found Theosophy in the public library and have great respect for immigrants. If one were to feel the inclination to give birth to a highly evolved soul (and I'd look at their chart on this one), then perhaps it is the dharma programmed into their personality. They will have the necessary equipment to fulfill the job and perhaps, even some past-life connection with the incoming entity. Sacrifice? With love, there is no sacrifice, in term of giving something up. There is only giving, in joy. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:01:44 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 896 Message-ID: <199702112100.QAA05624@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > Ann, > > >So true. There's even a small poster tacked to the bulletin board > outside the Olcott library proclaiming just that fact. It has very > interesting computer clip art on it, too. That must be the reason there's > always such a crowd by the water cooler. > > Good Lord!!! I thought I had all the negatives! > > Unless it's a still from that video I made... > Ah, yes, The one that someone slipped into Olcott's rental video collection. What's the title now? "Early Founders"? "Floundering Early"? "The Early Flounder"? "My Date with a Founder"? "A Flounder tells All"? "The Naked Flounder"? -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:13:55 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: ...now for the Trekkies Message-ID: <199702112113.NAA07536@proxy2.ba.best.com> 10 REASONS WHY STAR TREK IS BETTER THAN STAR WARS 10) Q would have a field day with Darth Vader! He owns all "Sides"! 9) Ever see a Star Wars woose BEAM DOWN TO THE PLANET SURFACE! 8) I don't think Princess Loser would have a chance in the "Booth of Pain" (MIRROR, MIRROR) 7) When a phaser is on kill, the enemy is vaporized not quarterized! 6) Two words: PHOTON TORPEDOES 5) How many C3PO's does it take to make one DATA? 4) Ever see the Milenium Falcon travel through time? I dont think so! 3) One word "HOLODECK!!!!!!!!" :) 2) Star Wars took place a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far, away...they're old news! 1) Lets see...Deanna Troi or Princess Leia....OH DEANNA! Think again Star Wars Buds! ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:13:19 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: More Trekkie Stuff Message-ID: <199702112113.NAA07346@proxy2.ba.best.com> "Star Trek The New Generation Lost Episode" Transcript "Mr. LaForge, have you had any success with your attempts at finding a weakness in the Borg? And Mr. Data, have you been able to access their command pathways?" "Yes, Captain. In fact, we found the answer by searching through our archives on late Twentieth-century computing technology." "What the hell is `Microsoft'?" "Allow me to explain. We will send this program, for some reason called `Windows', through the Borg command pathways. Once inside their root command unit, it will begin consuming system resources at an unstoppable rate." "But the Borg have the ability to adapt. Won't they alter their processing systems to increase their storage capacity?" "Yes, Captain. But when `Windows' detects this, it creates a new version of itself known as an `upgrade'. The use of resources increases exponentially with each iteration. The Borg will not be able to adapt quickly enough. Eventually all of their processing ability will be taken over and none will be available for their normal operational functions." "Excellent work. This is even better than that `unsolvable geometric shape' idea." . . . 15 Minutes Later . . . "Captain, we have successfully installed the `Windows' in the Borg's command unit. As expected, it immediately consumed 850f all available resources. However, we have not received any confirmation of the expected `upgrade'." "Our scanners have picked up an increase in Borg storage and CPU capacity, but we still have no indication of an `upgrade' to compensate for their increase." "Data, scan the history banks again and determine if there is something we have missed." "Sir, I believe there is a reason for the failure in the 'upgrade'. Apparently the Borg have circumvented that part of the plan by not sending in their registration cards." "Captain, we have no choice. Requesting permission to begin emergency escape sequence 3F ...." "Wait, Captain! Their CPU capacity has suddenly dropped to 0!" "Data, what does your scanners show?" "Appearently the Borg have found the internal `Windows' module named `Solitaire', and it has used up all available CPU capacity." "Let's wait and see how long this `Solitaire' can reduce their functionality." . . . Two Hours Pass . . . "Geordi, what is the status of the Borg?" "As expected, the Borg are attempting to re-engineer to compensate for increased CPU and storage demands, but each time they successfully increase resources I have setup our closest deep space monitor beacon to transmit more `Windows' modules from something called the `Microsoft Fun-pack'. "How much time will that buy us?" "Current Borg solution rates allow me to predicate an interest time span of 6 more hours." "Captain, another vessel has entered our sector." "Identify." "It appears to have markings very similar to the 'Microsoft' logo..." "THIS IS ADMIRAL BILL GATES OF THE MICROSOFT FLAGSHIP _MONOPOLY_. WE HAVE POSITIVE CONFIRMATION OF UNREGISTERED SOFTWARE IN THIS SECTOR. SURRENDER ALL ASSETS AND WE CAN AVOID ANY TROUBLE. YOU HAVE 10 SECONDS TO COMPLY." "The alien ship has just opened its forward hatches and released thousands of humanoid-shaped objects." "Magnify forward viewer on the alien craft!" "My God, captain! Those are human beings floating straight toward the Borg ship - with no life support suits! How can they survive the tortures of deep space?!" "I don't believe that those are humans, sir. If you will look closer, I believe you will see that they are carrying something recognized by twenty-first century man as doeskin leather briefcases, and wearing Armani suits." "Lawyers!!" "It can't be. All the Lawyers were rounded up and sent hurtling into the sun in 2017 during the Great Awakening." "True, but apparently some must have survived." "They have surrounded the Borg ship and are covering it with all types of papers." "I believe that is known in ancient venacular as `red tape'. It often proves fatal." "They're tearing the Borg to pieces!" "Turn the monitors off, Data, I can't bear to watch. Even the Borg doesn't deserve such a gruesome death!" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:13:10 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: reply Message-ID: <199702112113.NAA07302@proxy2.ba.best.com> Ben, >>Thoa: >>Have you ever heard of deliberate illogic? > >I have not. Please enlighten. It's an example of the marriage of the intellect and the creative, the structured and the unstructured, and the logical and the illogical. Comedians use it quite a bit. Comedians will make statements that appear to be nonsense but has tons of truth to it. It's a way of stepping away from the structure and confines of logic in order to analyze the logical system clearly and objectively. >Perhaps what I meant to say about the "current of respect alternating" was >that every woman looks out into her own reality, and perceives the summation >of all what her "bodies" are telling her is the case at any particular moment >in space-time-thought. She may believe that the respect is alternating but >she is only believing what her mind set is describing/mirroring to her ego >relative to actual events as they occur.Whatever her perceptions of the past >were they will colour her present, and potentially future, realities.If her >preconceptions persist they will surely become part of her ever periodic >existence. That is how it is with everyone. Subjective, objective, blah, blah, blah. As far as women go, are you referring to a woman's biological clock? >...It is my belief that those who are highly spiritually >evolved souls [not referring to myself ofcourse] need to be in an environment >where the highest aspirations are in place for the soul to reach its full >potential.Do you not agree that one should, if one is given the opportunity, >sacrifice one's own spiritual development for the birth of a more evolved >soul who can perhaps spread more light into the world than oneself? How are you going to control a soul's choice of parents? Any parents will tell you that their child is his/her own personality. Theosophists can have a fundamentalist Christian child or even a murderer. On the other hand, the most wonderful and kind people came from disadvantaged backgrounds. The only thing parents can do is nurture and love their children, educate them, help develop their talents, and finally let them be the people that they are. Perhaps you were meant to have the set of parents that you have. You are learning theosophy, aren't you? Obviously, it is important to you for you to wish that you could have started learning earlier. As far as a choice of mate, if ascetism is your thing, that's fine. However, if you do wish for a mate, the best thing is to find someone that you're happy with and who you can grow with. Life brings many surprises. You'll never know who will come into your life. >By the way, I would like to add that perhaps some of my recent responses >have perhaps been a little obtuse, dare I say it even illogical, at times but >I think that that is because I have never felt so emotionally charged in my >life. I have never been attacked by a feminist before and it takes a little >time to get used to it.Please forgive me. >You have almost made me out to be a fascist pig who thinks that women are a >rather unfortunate aspect to the human family. I do NOT hold such ideas. >However, being beseiged by such a personality brings out the protective >aspect towards my "maleness". Perhaps if you toned down your emotional >outbursts I would be able to sound more logical in my reasoning.Believe it >or not, I am more an intuitive person than an intellectual, and so I can get >in touch my feelings v. easily - it means also that I am quite sensitive! >Please be kind. Makes you want to put on one of those sports crotch guard, doesn't it? =o) (almost a smile, still stern.) Okay, I will put away my samurai sword. Sometimes a man will say a statement that is highly charged for a woman. For some reason, the man is usually totally clueless about what his statement meant, and then wonders what we are up in arms about. Some prejudices are so ingrained in us that we can't see the forest for the trees. >I think that that is because I have never felt so emotionally charged in my >life. I have never been attacked by a feminist before and it takes a little >time to get used to it.Please forgive me. Once you get used to the leather whip, you'll beg for it. };-{> I would also ask for your forgiveness except that, if the situation is right, I will become emotionally charged again. The thing I can't stand is apathy. I'm not afraid of my emotions. In fact, I find them useful and I don't think I'm going to become a mass murderer. Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:06:17 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Thoa started it ... Message-ID: <199702112206.OAA19893@palrel1.hp.com> Oh Thoa, You shouldn't have started those Bill Gates jokes ... Bill Gates died in a car accident. He immediately found himself in purgatory, being sized up by St. Peter. "Well, Bill, I'm really confused on this call; I'm not sure whether to send you to Heaven or Hell. After all, you enormously helped society by putting a computer in almost every home in America, yet you also created that ghastly Windows '95. I'm going to do something I've never done before. In your case, I'm going to let you decide where you want to go." Bill replied, "Well, what's the difference between the two?" St. Peter said, "I'm willing to let you visit both places briefly, if it will help your decision." "Fine, but where should I go first?" "I'll leave that up to you." "Okay then," said Bill. "Let's try Hell first." So Bill went to Hell. It was a beautiful, clean, sandy beach with clear waters and lots of bikini-clad women running around, playing in the water, laughing and frolicking about. The sun was shining; the temperature perfect. He was very pleased. "This is great!" he told St. Peter. "If this is hell, I REALLY want to see heaven!" "Fine," said St. Peter, and off they went. Heaven was a place high in the clouds, with angels drifting about, playing harps and singing. It was nice, but not as enticing as Hell. Bill thought for a quick minute, and rendered his decision. "Hmmm. I think I'd prefer Hell," he told St. Peter. "Fine," retorted St. Peter, "as you desire." So Bill Gates went to Hell. Two weeks later, St. Peter decided to check on the late billionaire to see how he was doing in Hell. When he got there, he found Bill, shackled to a wall screaming amongst hot flames in dark caves, being burned and tortured by demons. "How's everything going?" he asked Bill. Bill responded, with his voice filled with anguish and disappointment, "This is awful! This is nothing like the Hell I visited two weeks ago! I can't believe this is happening! What happened to that other place, with the beautiful beaches, the scantily-clad women playing in the water?!???" "That was a demo," replied St. Peter. ========== And while we're at it, you shouldn't have started the lawyer jokes either ... A tourist wanders into a back-alley antique shop in San Francisco's Chinatown. Picking through the objects on display he discovers a detailed, life-sized bronze sculpture of a rat. The sculpture is so interesting and unique that he picks it up and asks the shop owner what it costs. "Twelve dollars for the rat, sir," says the shop owner, "and a thousand dollars more for the story behind it." "You can keep the story, old man," he replies, "but I'll take the rat." The transaction complete, the tourist leaves the store with the bronze rat under his arm. As he crosses the street in front of the store, two live rats emerge from a sewer drain and fall into step behind him. Nervously looking over his shoulder, he begins to walk faster, but every time he passes another sewer drain, more rats come out and follow him. By the time he's walked two blocks, at least a hundred rats are at his heels, and people begin to point and shout. He walks even faster, soon breaking into a trot as multitudes of rats swarm from sewers, basements, vacant lots, and abandoned cars. Rats by the thousands nip at his heels, as he begins to run faster and faster. Suddenly, just in front of him he sees the waterfront at the bottom of the hill, panicking, he starts to run full tilt. No matter how fast he runs, the rats are at his heels, squealing hideously, now not just thousands but tens of thousands, perhaps even hundreds of thousands, so that by the time he comes rushing up to the water's edge a trail of rats twelve city blocks long is trailing him. Taking a mighty leap, he jumps up onto a light post, grasping it with one arm as he hurls the bronze rat statue into San Francisco Bay with the other, tumbling off into the water as far as he can heave it. Pulling his legs up and clinging to the light post, he watches in amazement as the seething tide of squealing rats surges over the breakwater and into the sea, drowning in a whirlpool of infestation. Shaken and mumbling in bewilderment, he makes his way back to the antique shop. "Ah, so you've come back for the rest of the story," says the owner. "No," says the tourist, "I was wondering if you have a bronze lawyer." ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:46:58 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 899 Message-ID: <199702112246.JAA00363@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> MKD wrote >Some years ago the Charter of Canadian Section was cancelled. Thanks for this information on the Canadian Section. I am very curious about this situation because of the outcome of it at my Lodge. The story we hear is that the Canadian section and some country in Europe (Belgium or Denmark - not sure which ) have been taken over by the Shantara Group (spelling unknown). This has been used as a big stick for many years of changes to our constitution which has resulted in us having a constitution which effectively creates and supports a closed shop. At each AGM we have more rules changes making the constitution more and more complex and disenfranchinsing members more and more, and if anyone speaks against these changes, the big bogey of a "takeover" is raised and the changes are promptly voted in. So, I would very much like to have as much knowledge of this as possible so that I can counteract the fear mongering. Does anyone know the "human" side of this (and the European situation) other than the facts as presented in the article? Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:30:45 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 899 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970211233045.006780c4@mail.eden.com> At 05:54 PM 2/11/97 -0500, you wrote: > >MKD wrote >>Some years ago the Charter of Canadian Section was cancelled. > >Thanks for this information on the Canadian Section. I am very curious >about this situation because of the outcome of it at my Lodge. The story we >hear is that the Canadian section and some country in Europe (Belgium or >Denmark - not sure which ) have been taken over by the Shantara Group >(spelling unknown). > >This has been used as a big stick for many years of changes to our >constitution which has resulted in us having a constitution which >effectively creates and supports a closed shop. At each AGM we have more >rules changes making the constitution more and more complex and >disenfranchinsing members more and more, and if anyone speaks against these >changes, the big bogey of a "takeover" is raised and the changes are >promptly voted in. > >So, I would very much like to have as much knowledge of this as possible so >that I can counteract the fear mongering. Does anyone know the "human" side >of this (and the European situation) other than the facts as presented in >the article? > >Christine Danish Sections charter was cancelled and it appears that there was litigation for the property between pro Adyar members and others and pro Adyar members lost the litigation. It also appears that there have been problems in other countries Ireland (?), Greece (?), Italy (?), & Yugoslavia (?). Information on the background is usually difficult to come by because no one talks about them. Also in the past it has been very difficult for membership in any one country to know anything about what is going on even in the next door country. It looks like with better communication possibilities thru Internet, information in future may come out as things happen. But again, there may be a unwritten gag order on partyliners not to talk about any of these issues on Internet with the subtle threat of action against them. So it is left to those bold and brave souls who have to speak up what is right and help the organization. In all the above, it appears that the bottom line is property and money. If property and money is not involved, then what is there to take away. The Greatest of all reformers, Lord Buddha stated very clearly that there is no need for any intermediary (priests) for any ones's salvation. So for the practical application of Theosophical principles for each one of us to help the Humanity no organization is needed. Who knows what is the immediate future of TS as we know it. Even the great Roman Empire had its hay days and then disappeared. May be some of those in Astrology may want to see what the stars say say in the future 20 - 50 years. In any event Theo-sophia will survive as it has done from antiquity. MKR But for Internet, you wont have posted the msg and I wont be posting this reply. Think about it. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:28:14 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: You are unique like everyone else Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970212012814.006cc4ac@mail.eden.com> Hi I picked up the following signature. Very interesting. MKR ==== === E-mail: tcokamur@unity.ncsu.edu || Identify the song & win something! tcokamur@eos.ncsu.edu || "no bombs, no guns, no more war, Phone: (919) 512-5929 || no genocide, no torture, no 515-2929 || disease, no afflictions, no Administrative Coordinator || crippled, no addictions, no 302 Turlington Hall || prisons, fresh air everyone is free" ....and remember... you are unique, just like everyone else. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 01:27:00 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 896 Message-ID: In message <199702112100.QAA05624@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes (responding to Chuck) >Ah, yes, The one that someone slipped into Olcott's >rental video collection. What's the title now? "Early Founders"? >"Floundering Early"? "The Early Flounder"? "My Date with >a Founder"? "A Flounder tells All"? "The Naked Flounder"? "Flounder at Large" Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:09:16 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 899 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970212020916.006c995c@mail.eden.com> At 05:54 PM 2/11/97 -0500, you wrote: > >MKD wrote >>Some years ago the Charter of Canadian Section was cancelled. > >Thanks for this information on the Canadian Section. I am very curious >about this situation because of the outcome of it at my Lodge. The story we >hear is that the Canadian section and some country in Europe (Belgium or >Denmark - not sure which ) have been taken over by the Shantara Group >(spelling unknown). > >This has been used as a big stick for many years of changes to our >constitution which has resulted in us having a constitution which >effectively creates and supports a closed shop. At each AGM we have more >rules changes making the constitution more and more complex and >disenfranchinsing members more and more, and if anyone speaks against these >changes, the big bogey of a "takeover" is raised and the changes are >promptly voted in. > >So, I would very much like to have as much knowledge of this as possible so >that I can counteract the fear mongering. Does anyone know the "human" side >of this (and the European situation) other than the facts as presented in >the article? > >Christine Can you tell us the key aspects of the changes recently put in in your Section. In the USA, last year changes were approved. Several knowledgeable attorneys feel that these changes cannot stand a court challenges since the procedures adopted for changing the bylaws were defective. Also after the changes, several members lost their franchise retroactively. These are the same members who had cast the ballot for the change. The changes were presented to make them appear as if they were simple general housekeeping even though they are very substantial. I wish you were on theos-l during the last quarter of 1995 when there was intense discussion on these changes. For your benefit and those newbees I am giving a brief general summary of the changes and other developments in the USA. At this time, the following are the situation (even though may not stand a court challenge -- of course the HQ has a multi-million dollar fund which can be used to litigate for ever). 1. The National Board can throw out any member. 2. The National Board can cancell the charter of any lodge, center and immediately seize the assets. 3. The National Board has to approve each and every expenditure at each and every lodge and center before they can spend $5,000 or over for any purpose. 4. The National Board has to approve any borrowing against Lodge, study center property. 5. The National Board and or Adyar can shut down the Section. Once this is done, all charters of lodges and study centers are automatically cancelled, which immediately triggers seizure of assets. 6. Once this happens, all assets go into a Trust governed by Trustees who are not answerable to anyone. (There is precedence to this kind of Trustees not answerableness to anyone -- Krishnamurti Trusts did that and the Attorney General of California had to sue the Trust and Trustees so that Krishnamurti can use it for his work -- this happened when Krishnamurti was *alive*) So everything is in place if a need arises, to shut down the entire Section and roll over all the assets into this Trust. In addition to the above, following are significant other items that seem to indicate the direction in which things are moving in the US. 1. Now all new lodges and centers are initially granted a probationary charter. They have to prove to the satisfaction of the National Board that the activities are "Theosophical" in their (NB) judgement and opinion. Only after such a probationary period, a regular charter is issued. 2. An Institute has been set up to teach Theosophy. (Wonder who can teach anyone Theo-sophia -- Divine Wisdom when even worldly wisdom is difficult to teach). At this time it is staffed mostly PhDs, (not yet by PhDs in Theosophy). Now only a certificate is issued. Nobody should be surprised if in the future you see this certificate is a requirement to hold any office even at local level. May be in due course we will have Bachelors, Masters and Doctorate in Theosophy -- D Theos, not unlike DD. One of these degrees may become a minimum requirement for any National Office. I am not a mind reader so I do not know what is cooking. These are just *my* thoughts. 3. We now have *approved* National Lecturers who are the only ones who can travel and lecture at TSA expense. No one knows what the pre-requisite for approval. So only *approved* Theosophy is spread thru these Approved National Lecturers. 4. We also heard that some years ago that some of the libraries were cleansed of books which do not present TS in a good light. 5. Some months back, in an official publication, a new invention/discovery has been made/proposed. We all have heard if three Objects of TS. Now it is the three aims of TS. These aims appear to suggest that TS is the recruiting ground for chelas for gurus. The advantage of this approach is that once this concept is accepted by any one, he/she can be expected to follow the party line and can't speak his/her mind without some consequences. 6. Looks like what typical orthodox religions and cults have done in the past. I would like to have feed back from the subscribers from other countries, on what kinds of developments are seen so that we can see if there is an International pattern developing. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:53:12 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Feminism Message-ID: <199702120253.SAA03866@proxy3.ba.best.com> Ann: >> From: Thoa Tran >> >> A dear friend of mine, Marty Nash, e-mailed me her definition of feminism: >> >> Marty: >> >When I was 23 my definition of a feminist was one who believed in >> >women's equality and was ready to work for it. >> >> >Today My definition is one who believes women hold up half the sky in a >> >very special way. Although both men and women can develop their yin and >> >yang powers, women have a special intuitiveness, and the ultimate >> >creativity. A feminist will value these qualities, see them as beautiful >> >and will help other women to value them also. She will walk proudly and >> >know she is beautiful. She will not accept the value the patriachy >> >places on women. Through her eyes the men around her will begin to see >> >this also. > >I have no argument with that, but I think it is also going to take >personal assertiveness, training in the use of various weapons >and martial arts, plus a good lawyer, in case one wants to sue >for discrimination. > >-AEB Let's see, personal assertiveness, check, training in the use of various weapons and martial arts, check. Um, know any good lawyer? Perhaps we can drag one off the Borg ship. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:53:18 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Tongue in cheek Message-ID: <199702120253.SAA04058@proxy3.ba.best.com> By popular demand... > At Ommen Camp on August 3, 1929 Krishnamurti by his own act dissolved the >Order, and his reasons for this action are contained in this pronouncement. > >=============================== > TRUTH IS A PATHLESS LAND > by J. Krishnamurti > > We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the >Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a >question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as >I am going to explain. > > You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were >walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and >pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his >pocket. The friend said to the devil, "What did that man pick up?" "He >picked up a piece of Truth," said the devil. "That is a very bad business >for you, then," said his friend. "Oh. not at all," the devil replied "I am >going to let him organize it." > > I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by >any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of >view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being >limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path, whatsoever, cannot be >organized, nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people >along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see, >how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual >matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes >dead, crystallized, it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on >others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. >Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for >those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, >rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot >bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the >mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of >the dangerous precipices. You must climb towards the Truth, it cannot be >"stepped down" or organized for you. Interest in ideas is mainly sustained >by organizations, but organizations only awaken interest from without. >Interest, which is not born out of love of Truth for its own sake, but >aroused by an organization, is of no value. The organization becomes a >framework into which its members can conveniently fit. They no longer >strive after Truth or the mountaintop, but rather carve for themselves a >convenient niche in which they put themselves or let the organization place >them and consider the organization will thereby lead them to Truth. > > So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the >Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other >Orders' you will continue to belong to other organizations searching for >Truth. I do not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind, >please understand this. I would make use of an organization which would >take me to London, for example: this is quite a different kind of >organization, merely mechanical, like the post or the telegraph. I would >use a motor car or a steamship to travel, these are only physical mechanisms >which have nothing whatever to do with spirituality. Again, I maintain that >no organization can lead man to spirituality. > > If an organization be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a >weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from >growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for >himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason >why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it. >No one has persuaded me to this decision. > > This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean >this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not >concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a >certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering >concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing; to set >man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to >found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new >philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, >continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not >because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of >special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, >however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions may be! I do not >want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either >on earth or in the realm of spirituality. > > Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, >which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come >to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want >this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussions >year after year. > > One newspaper reporter. who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent >act to dissolve an organization in which there were thousands and thousands >of members. To him it was a great act because he said: "What will you do >afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no >longer listen to you." If there are only five people who will listen, who >will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be >sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who >are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather >translate, the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves? If I speak >strongly, please do not misunderstand me, it is not through lack of >compassion. If you go to a surgeon for an operation, is it not kindness on >his part to operate even if he cause you pain? So, in like manner, if I >speak straightly, it is not through lack of real affection -- on the contrary. > > As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him >towards freedom, to help him break away from all limitation, for that alone >will give him eternal happiness, will give him the unconditioned realization >of the self. > > Because I am free, unconditioned, whole, not the part, not the relative, >but the whole Truth that is eternal, I desire those, who seek to understand >me, to be free, not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will >become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears from >the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of >spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear >of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in >that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, >so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone. > > You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which >you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another >can, by his extraordinary powers, a miracle transport you to this realm of >eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on >that authority. > > You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking >place except in the few. Now analyze what I am saying, be critical, so that >you may understand thoroughly. fundamentally. When you look for an >authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build >an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that >organization, which you think, will help this authority to lead you to >spirituality, you are held in a cage. > > If I talk frankly, please remember that I do so, not out of harshness, not >out of cruelty, not out of the enthusiasm of my purpose but because I want >you to understand what I am saying. That is the reason why you are here, >and it would be a waste of time if I did not explain clearly, decisively, my >point of view. > > For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming >of the World-Teacher. For eighteen years you have organized, you have >looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, >who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; >for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you a >new encouragement, who would set you free - and now look what is happening! >Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has >made you different - not with the superficial difference of he wearing of a >badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept >away all the unessential things of life? 'That is the only way to judge; in >what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every Society which is >based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of >this organization of the Star become different. > > As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not >care if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very >little importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the >Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that >Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher - partially or wholly: wholly for those >who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with >their own half-truths. > > You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties >there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many >trivial things Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches >new and old all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot >make my self clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do >not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying. > > This understanding is necessary because your belief has not transformed >you but only complicated you, and because you are not, willing to face >things as they are. You want to have your own gods - new, gods instead of >the old, new religions instead of the old, new forms instead of the old - >all equally valueless, all barriers, all limitation, all crutches. Instead >of old spiritual distinctions you have new spiritual distinctions, instead >of old worships you have new worships. You are all depending for your >spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your >enlightenment on someone else; and although you have been preparing for me >for eighteen years, when I say all these things are unnecessary, when I say >that you must put them all away and look within yourselves for the >enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the >incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may >be a few, but very, very few. > > So why have an organization? > > Why have false, hypocritical people following me, the embodiment of Truth? >Please remember that I am not saying something harsh or unkind, but we have >reached a situation when you must face. > > So why have an organization? > > As I said before, my purpose is to make men unconditionally free, for I >maintain that the only spirituality is the incorruptibility of the self >which is eternal, is the harmony between reason and love. This is the >absolute, unconditioned Truth which is Life itself. I want therefore to set >man free, rejoicing as the bird in the clear sky, unburdened, independent, >ecstatic in that freedom. And I, for whom you have been preparing for >eighteen years, now say that you must be free of all these things, free from >your complications, your entanglements. For this you need not have an >organization based on spiritual belief. Why have an organization for five >or ten people in the world who understand, who are struggling, who have put >aside all trivial things? And for the weak people, there can be no >organization to help them find the Truth, because Truth is in everyone; it >is not far, it is not near, it is eternally there. > > Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you >free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a >cause, make you free, nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor >throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to >write letters, but you do not put in on an altar and worship it. But that >is what you are doing when Organizations become your chief concern. "How >many members are there in it?" That is the first question I am asked by all >newspaper reporters. "How many followers have You? By their number we shall >judge whether what you say is true Or false." I do not know how many there >are. I am not concerned with that. As I said, if there were even one man >who I had been set free, that were enough. > > Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the >Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold >that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the >purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom >of Eternity. > > So you will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, >looking for eternal help, depending on others for your comfort, for your >happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves. > > So why have an organization? > > You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your >spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are >beautiful or ugly within? Who but yourself can tell you if you are >incorruptible? You are not serious in these things. > > So why have an organization? > > But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that >which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together >with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is >unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they >will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, >and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be >true friendship. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to >know - there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not >because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation >for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of >living in the eternal. This is greater thing than all pleasure, than all >sacrifice. > > So those are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two >years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I >have not been persuaded to it by anyone - I am not persuaded in such things. >For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, >and I have now decided to disband the order, as I happen to be its Head, You >can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not >concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My >only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 23:04:24 -0500 From: "Bart Lidofsky" Subject: Re: Justice Message-ID: <199702120406.UAA09757@m2.sprynet.com> > >If your motive is vengence, then you are NOT following Judaic Law. If > >your motive is justice, then it is: "Justice, justice, shalt thou > >follow". > > If your motive is justice, then you are wrong, wrong, and dangerous > to boot. The phrase "vengence is mine" could as well be "justice > is mine." As a TS-type person, it is better to let one's own karma > reap "justice" then to think you know what is just and take it upon > yourself to meet it out. Every war has at least two sides, and each > side believes it is in the right, with God and justice on its side. > If justice is really your motive, then you will do nothing, and let > karma work it out. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Bart Lidofsky ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:21:14 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Triangle/Tripod Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970212042114.006746f0@mail.eden.com> Recently when there was a comment that the current (Co)Masonic Litigation that is going on in Denver Federal Court and the potential connections, (unofficial of course -- TS has nothing to do with *any* *other* organizations -- this is the official position), I wondered about it. However, I happened to run into some material in Tillet's book "The Elder Brother" (which is excerpted below) which has something to say about the secret masonic rite which has as requirement membership ES and Co-Masonry and of course you cannot be a member of ES without being a member of TS. This is the first time, I am hearing of this connection. Some of you may find it interesting. MKR PS: Since Dora Kunz (former National President of TS in America) was one of the pupils of Leadbeater in Australia at that time, and I think she is from Dutch East Indies, I am wondering if she was one of "The "Seven Virgins of Java" mentioned below. Can some historian clarify this? ====================== Leadbeater's final attempt to achieve his desired effect of merging the idea of a community of young people with ceremonial work came in his last group of pupils. These were all girls, from the Dutch East Indies, chosen by Leadbeater during one of his visits to Java. The girls were sent to The Manor by their parents, willingly or otherwise, in 1927-8, and remained there with Leadbeater until he moved to settle permanently at Adyar early in 1929. They were known as 'The Seven Virgins of Java', and were related in Leadbeater's scheme of things both to the World Mother, Who would manifest Her special force through them, to the powers behind the Liberal Catholic Church and Co-Masonry, and to the still-surviving idea of the World Teacher. Leadbeater had long had an interest in Java, and had produced a book, The Occult History of Java. The seven girls were treated as a group, an innovation in Leadbeater's teaching since he had previously always emphasized the need for individuality and individual attention. They were told they had to function as an organic whole, and would pass Initiations and other psychic experiences corporately. They were all trained in Masonry, and rigidly drilled in ceremonial by Leadbeater's secretary, Miss Maddox. Eventually, despite their youth, they were all elevated by Leadbeater to the highest grade of Freemasonry, the 33rd degree, and were all made members of the ES. Leadbeater planned to establish yet another ceremonial movement in which these seven girls would have a vital function. It was known as the Egyptian Rite of Ancient Freemasonry, and it remains a secret inner group, with a prerequisite of membership of the ES and of Co-Masonry. Although it has few members it continues to work its six degrees in various centres of Theosophy. Leadbeater planned that the Egyptian Rite would draw together the angels of the Church's ceremonial and those of CoMasonic working, and in this he claimed the encouragement and inspiration of the Master The Count, who assisted him in the preparation of the Ritual. The Ritual was originally drafted by Wedgwood, since he was said to be in a special relationship to The Count. However, Leadbeater did not like the proposed ritual, and submitted it to Arundale for revision. The final material was said to constitute 'the most powerful occult ritual in the world'. The seven girls were kept busy rehearsing their parts in it to ensure that they were perfect for the day when the Egyptian Rite (ER) would be inaugurated in the Co-Masonic Temple at Adyar. This was done in 1929, after the ES had been reopened. The Ritual was formally issued on Christmas Day, 1931, bearing the imprimatur of Mrs Besant as Grand Master, and a solemn warning from Arundale, as Grand Secretary, that the ritual text was the property of the 'SS' (presumably the Sovereign Sanctuary) and 'must be returned on demand and provision must be made for the return on the death of the member'. When not in actual use, the ritual should be kept under lock and key. The Rite consists of six degrees or stages. The first is the Temple of the Quest, which includes three stages: Fire, Form and Life, intended to purify the physical and emotional bodies, the mind, and the intuition and will respectively. Once a candidate has passed through these stages he will normally be ready for presentation to a 'Lord of Light' to be placed on probation. The rituals take place in a Temple 'symbolic of the human spirit with bodies', and are to be 'regarded as a dramatization of the true functions of the various principles and bodies, so externalised that, as in a mystic mirror, the individual sees himself as he is destined to become'. Various officers represent different bodies and qualities, although their titles were derived from several languages, such as Artifex, Agni and Etha, and some of them sound a trifle quaint. It was noted that all participants need to have a thorough knowledge of At the Feet of the Master, 'the teachings of which the Rituals of these degrees are largely destined to emphasize'. By the time the candidate completes the three stages of the Temple of the Quest, he should be on Probation and could then advance to the fourth stage, the Temple of the Rose and the Cross. Once accepted as the chela of a Master he can go on to the fifth stage, the Outer Temple or Temple of the Dawn, followed by the sixth stage, the Inner Temple or Temple of the Star. These are the degrees to be worked by the members, and above them is the seventh stage, the Sovereign Sanctuary of the Masters of the Light, the governing body of the ER. Beyond that was the Great Hierarchy. It was emphasized that the Rite was mainly for the young, and that wherever possible all the officers should be young people; with the passage of time and the disappearance of young people generally from the TS one presumes that this is no longer the case. The rituals themselves have a distinct Leadbeaterian, if one might use such a term, flavour about them, and include copious references to and quotations from At the Feet of the Master, in addition to numerous modified Anglican hymns. 'O Trinity of Burning Light' and 'There is a King of Glory' are found with some appropriate original material drawn from the St Alban Hymnal of the Liberal Catholic Church. Oaths are taken on a copy of At the Feet of the Master and a silver star, and once admitted to the Temple of the Quest candidates are invested with a 'symbol of Dawning of Light upon the darkness' which they wear around their necks, openly in the Temple, and unseen in the outer world. Leadbeater found the occult effects of this most powerful of all occult rituals very pleasing and presumably felt it accomplished the blending of two streams of angelic assistants, and emanated highly potent evolutionary currents upon the surrounding world. --------end--- ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:24:57 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Tongue in cheek Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970212042457.006e1a4c@mail.eden.com> At 10:05 PM 2/11/97 -0500, Thoa wrote: >By popular demand... > >> At Ommen Camp on August 3, 1929 Krishnamurti by his own act dissolved the >>Order, and his reasons for this action are contained in this pronouncement. >> >>=============================== >> TRUTH IS A PATHLESS LAND > > >> by J. Krishnamurti ==========cliped from hereon ==== It is good to post this periodically. It could be a reminder to all as well as may help newbees to the list. Thanks again. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue Feb 11 23:27:31 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Re: You are unique like everyone else Message-ID: <199702120427.XAA10069@envirolink.org> ramadoss@eden.com writes: >I picked up the following signature. Very interesting. > >MKR > E-mail: tcokamur@unity.ncsu.edu || Identify the song & win something! > tcokamur@eos.ncsu.edu || "no bombs, no guns, no more war, > Phone: (919) 512-5929 || no genocide, no torture, no > 515-2929 || disease, no afflictions, no > Administrative Coordinator || crippled, no addictions, no > 302 Turlington Hall || prisons, fresh air everyone is free" > ....and remember... you are unique, just like everyone else. It's "Leave me alone, I'm busy" by The Hairless Purple Bunnies!!! What do I win? --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:54:06 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: You are unique like everyone else Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970212045406.006cef48@mail.eden.com> At 11:32 PM 2/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >ramadoss@eden.com writes: >>I picked up the following signature. Very interesting. >> >>MKR >> E-mail: tcokamur@unity.ncsu.edu || Identify the song & win something! >> tcokamur@eos.ncsu.edu || "no bombs, no guns, no more war, >> Phone: (919) 512-5929 || no genocide, no torture, no >> 515-2929 || disease, no afflictions, no >> Administrative Coordinator || crippled, no addictions, no >> 302 Turlington Hall || prisons, fresh air everyone is free" >> ....and remember... you are unique, just like everyone else. > >It's "Leave me alone, I'm busy" by The Hairless Purple Bunnies!!! >What do I win? > >--- >The Triaist > > I don't know. Please contact tcokamur@unity.ncsu.edu MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 16:24:20 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 901 Message-ID: <199702120524.QAA00239@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> >MKD wrote >>Some years ago the Charter of Canadian Section was cancelled. > Christine wrote >Thanks for this information on the Canadian Section. I am very curious >about this situation because of the outcome of it at my Lodge. The story we >hear is that the Canadian section and some country in Europe (Belgium or >Denmark - not sure which ) have been taken over by the Shantara Group >(spelling unknown). > >This has been used as a big stick for many years of changes to our >constitution which has resulted in us having a constitution which >effectively creates and supports a closed shop. MKD wrote >Can you tell us the key aspects of the changes recently put in in your Section. No, at this stage I cannot, but I will now request a latest copy of the National consititution, mine is quite old, and have a look at it. Many of the changes our Lodge has made were "required" by section, but this was also used as a coverall to get lots of other changes through which were not required. I do know that our local Lodge resisted a requirement by National to include a clause that our assets could be seized by National if our Lodge is wound up (our Lodge is worth quite a few millon dollars and is an Australian Company bound by Australian companies Law). The final clause which got written into out Lodge constitution on this is that: ::::If upon winding up of the Lodge there remains after the satisfaction of all its debts and liabilities any property whatsoever the same shall not be distributed among the members of the Lodge but shall be given or transferred to the Theosophical Society in Australia with the intention that where possible it will be used to support another Lodge in [the name of our state].:::: The significant words are WHERE POSSIBLE, which we apparently resisted initially until our President was told why it was necessary and assured us that for reasons we couldn't be told, we had to vote for it! It is worth noting that there are restrictions on why a Lodge can be wound up - or at least I thought there were until I started reading our only just publshed new consititution. It's not where I thought it was, so I have more work to do, it seems. I think this clause has disappeared. >From a local point of view, we have a committee (of 10) and a Board of Trustees (of 5) with supposedly split responsibilies. RE the Committee. The committee can reject any aspiring new member without giving reason, you must be a member for 12 months before being eligible to vote, 2 years before running for committee and must attend two lectures a month for 12 months to be eligible to run, then once on the committee you must be an ordinary member for 2 consecutive years before running for Vice President, and serve 2 years (not consecutive) as VP before running for President. This has all been done in the name of keeping out the Shantara Group. You have to have been a member for 7 years to run for the Trustees, and must have served on the committee for the previous two years prior to election (this last restriction was introduced to keep me out in 1995 when I threatened to run). All trustees are now Committee members and their role has been reduced to being answerable to the Committee. We are currently having our constitution reviewed by the Australian Securities Commission, but from your alert I will make sure they have the latest National constitution also. There may be something there, and I will check it for the list of items you enclosed. It will be interesting if they are moving in the same direction in more than one country, but I must say that I don't think we are any way near this kind of dictatorship. I have also just found the clause that Rules of the National Society over-rule any incompatible rule in our constitution - hmmm - maybe. Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 00:15:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 901 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970212061500.0075d238@mail.eden.com> At 12:35 AM 2/12/97 -0500, you wrote: > >>MKD wrote >>>Some years ago the Charter of Canadian Section was cancelled. >> >Christine wrote >>Thanks for this information on the Canadian Section. I am very curious >>about this situation because of the outcome of it at my Lodge. The story we >>hear is that the Canadian section and some country in Europe (Belgium or >>Denmark - not sure which ) have been taken over by the Shantara Group >>(spelling unknown). >> >>This has been used as a big stick for many years of changes to our >>constitution which has resulted in us having a constitution which >>effectively creates and supports a closed shop. > >MKD wrote >>Can you tell us the key aspects of the changes recently put in in your Section. > >No, at this stage I cannot, but I will now request a latest copy of the >National consititution, mine is quite old, and have a look at it. Many of >the changes our Lodge has made were "required" by section, but this was also >used as a coverall to get lots of other changes through which were not required. > >I do know that our local Lodge resisted a requirement by National to include >a clause that our assets could be seized by National if our Lodge is wound >up (our Lodge is worth quite a few millon dollars and is an Australian >Company bound by Australian companies Law). The final clause which got >written into out Lodge constitution on this is that: > >::::If upon winding up of the Lodge there remains after the satisfaction of >all its debts and liabilities any property whatsoever the same shall not be >distributed among the members of the Lodge but shall be given or transferred >to the Theosophical Society in Australia with the intention that where >possible it will be used to support another Lodge in [the name of our >state].:::: > The above clause is normal all over the world where the lodge is a non-profit corporation. The intent is the assets are from money on which no tax has been paid as such it should not benefit the members. Another interesting aspect that should be looked into is this. What happens if at the time lodge is dissolved and by the time all the liabilities are paid off, there is no Theosophical Society in Australia? This could happen. You may want to look into it. >The significant words are WHERE POSSIBLE, which we apparently resisted >initially until our President was told why it was necessary and assured us >that for reasons we couldn't be told, we had to vote for it! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Secrecy in dealing with members is rampant in the TSA and looks like it is not limited to the USA. During the bylaws change questions were asked as to why in Denmark and other places Section Charter was cancelled. The only response we got from the TSA National President was that it was all too complicated. It was an insult to the intelligence of the membership. We have highly competent professional in the membership -- attorneys/lawyers, chartered/Certified Accountants, governmental officials etc who have and do deal with very highly complex matters on a daily basis and nothing is complex. If anyone in TS worldwide can understand, these people can understand. What it appears is that they do not want to tell the full and complete story of the background. It is common for leaders to say -- trust me -- I know the reason --- you need not know about it. > >It is worth noting that there are restrictions on why a Lodge can be wound >up - or at least I thought there were until I started reading our only just >publshed new consititution. It's not where I thought it was, so I have more >work to do, it seems. I think this clause has disappeared. > You should look and see what happens if National Board decides to cancel the charter issued to your lodge. Check also if there is a provision for the assets to be transferred to a Trust if the Section Charter is revoked or cancelled. Unless there is something in the Trust provisions to make the Trustees answerable to the public, it can end up in a very bad situation. I do not know if you are familiar with the 18 year litigation in which Krishnamurti Trusts were involved and he litigation ended only after Krishnamurti died. Krishnamurti Trusts were setup and money was donated to the Trusts to help Krishnamurti travel and teach etc. Initially he was one of the trustees. At some point later he resigned and his business manager who was also a Trustee took over the trust. Later when Krishnamurti asked for accounting for some of the donations to the trust, he could get no information. The K told that he is not going to accept any funds from the Trusts. This led to the California Attorney General and trustees of a new K Trust sued the old Trusts and Trustees for recovery of the assets. The litigation went on and on for 18 years -- with 3 law suit. There was even one in which Krishnamurti himself was sued by the Trustees for $9 million in damages. The full transfer of assets and termination/resignation of the trustees of the old trusts finally took place after he died. The details of the litigation was not much of public knowledge until recently. So if it could happen in the USA, it could happen anywhere in the world. >>From a local point of view, we have a committee (of 10) and a Board of >Trustees (of 5) with supposedly split responsibilies. > >RE the Committee. The committee can reject any aspiring new member without >giving reason, you must be a member for 12 months before being eligible to >vote, 2 years before running for committee and must attend two lectures a >month for 12 months to be eligible to run, then once on the committee you >must be an ordinary member for 2 consecutive years before running for Vice >President, and serve 2 years (not consecutive) as VP before running for >President. This has all been done in the name of keeping out the Shantara >Group. > This is the first time I am hearing about the Shantara Group. Can some one tell me more about it. I am truly intrigued. I have not heard about this group in Europe or in the US so far. Tell me what kind of restrictions they have on anyone who wants to become the President/National Secretary of Australian Section. I believe Joy Mills for the US held that position for some time. Would be interesting to know. >You have to have been a member for 7 years to run for the Trustees, and must >have served on the committee for the previous two years prior to election >(this last restriction was introduced to keep me out in 1995 when I >threatened to run). All trustees are now Committee members and their role >has been reduced to being answerable to the Committee. > The two consecutive year requirement has another advantage. If by that time the member signs up for ES, then it is very easy to make sure the member toes partyline on everything. >We are currently having our constitution reviewed by the Australian >Securities Commission, but from your alert I will make sure they have the >latest National constitution also. There may be something there, and I will >check it for the list of items you enclosed. It will be interesting if they >are moving in the same direction in more than one country, but I must say >that I don't think we are any way near this kind of dictatorship. > If the Securities Commission is looking into it, then as an interested member and public, you may be able to file a request to them about your concerns. You need to check, since I do not know the Australian procedures in this respect. It is worth checking. Also you may want to check another aspect. In most of the countries, they do not want foreign entities directly or indirectly controlling domestic non profit entities. This is to avoid a foreign entity from liquidating the assets and moving it out of the country and if this happens, the national governmental taxing authorities cannot do anything. >I have also just found the clause that Rules of the National Society >over-rule any incompatible rule in our constitution - hmmm - maybe. > >Christine > > At some point someone with legal background may have to look into the total picture. BTW, it may be of some interest to post the changes that were voted late in 1995 in the US. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:53:00 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 899 Message-ID: <33277b16.61681708@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> MKR wrote: >1. The National Board can throw out any member. What is the alternative to this? >3. The National Board has to approve each and every expenditure at each >and every lodge and center before they can spend $5,000 or over for any >purpose. The society would be more vulnerable if large expenditures did not require approval. >5. The National Board and or Adyar can shut down the Section. Once this is >done, all charters of lodges and study centers are automatically cancelled, >which immediately triggers seizure of assets. > >6. Once this happens, all assets go into a Trust governed by Trustees who >are not answerable to anyone. Does this mean that assets can become any individual's property? >1. Now all new lodges and centers are initially granted a probationary >charter. They have to prove to the satisfaction of the National Board that >the activities are "Theosophical" in their (NB) judgement and opinion. Only >after such a probationary period, a regular charter is issued. The implied alternative seems to be that no one should decide what is Theosophical and what isn't. But someone has to decide what an organization's policies are, or there is no point in having an organization. If you are saying that you disagree with their decisions, that is one thing. But you almost seem to be saying that the very fact that someone decides is wrong. >3. We now have *approved* National Lecturers who are the only ones who >can travel and lecture at TSA expense. No one knows what the >pre-requisite for approval. So only *approved* Theosophy is spread thru >these Approved National Lecturers. I don't see the alternative to this. Does the fact that anyone can use TSA money to travel and lecture mean that I have the right to demand that if I want to discuss the virtues of hoarding money and laughing at starving children, the TSA must finance it? ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 97 6:52:12 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Seven Virgins Message-ID: <199702121152.GAA23445@leo.vsla.edu> At the Theosophical History Conference in 1992, Gregory Tillett presented a paper on esoteric groups in Theosophy, and devoted particular attention to the Seven Virgins of Java. A couple of weeks after the conference, its organizer got a blistering letter from John Algeo, expressing extreme dislike of Tillett's paper and some others. Also complaining that Grace Knoche got too much attention (this for an event held at Point Loma!) The clincher was that his language conveyed an implicit threat to prevent any TSA support or involvement in Theosophical History Foundation events in the future, unless assurances were given that obnoxious papers like Tillett's wouldn't ever again be presented. My source for this, among others, is Tillett, who showed me the letter involved and wrote his own response. Just goes to show that the effort to exclude history they don't like from consideration by the membership is an ever-recurring feature of this organization with the motto "No religion higher than truth." It felt *so* good to throw the membership renewal form in the garbage this week. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:05:56 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Seven Virgins Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970212130556.006cbe38@mail.eden.com> Dear Paul: Thanks for the info. I also saw your excellent write up on the historical conference that took place I believe in 1989. May be it is time to post it here. The regarding the Seven Virgins is one of fact. Has anyone come up with any evidence -- not just opinion or conjecture -- to dispute what Tillett has written in his book. It is not a question of *personal* like or dislike. Again this ritual issue becomes important in another context. TS has *always* maintained that it has *nothing* to do with *any* other organization. But on the other hand, if you consider activities of most of the elected leaders -- past and present -- around the world, you get a totally different picture. In business parlance it is called substance over form. Do you still have a copy of Gregory Tillett's paper. May be it is time to post it here. If you can mail me a copy, I can try to post an excerpt. If anyone has information on the ritual and the Seven Virgins, it would be very interesting to know. MKR At 06:53 AM 2/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >At the Theosophical History Conference in 1992, Gregory Tillett >presented a paper on esoteric groups in Theosophy, and devoted >particular attention to the Seven Virgins of Java. A couple of >weeks after the conference, its organizer got a blistering >letter from John Algeo, expressing extreme dislike of Tillett's >paper and some others. Also complaining that Grace Knoche got >too much attention (this for an event held at Point Loma!) The >clincher was that his language conveyed an implicit threat to >prevent any TSA support or involvement in Theosophical History >Foundation events in the future, unless assurances were given >that obnoxious papers like Tillett's wouldn't ever again be >presented. >My source for this, among others, is Tillett, who showed me the >letter involved and wrote his own response. May be we should get hold of Algeo's letter and post it for all of us to see, if Tillett would consent to it. As it appears that the letter was from TSA, it would be appropriate to post it in public. Do you know if Tillett has an e-mail address? If you can check with him, we all would be grateful. > >Just goes to show that the effort to exclude history they don't >like from consideration by the membership is an ever-recurring >feature of this organization with the motto "No religion higher >than truth." > >It felt *so* good to throw the membership renewal form in the >garbage this week. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:54:05 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: What's Ahead? Message-ID: <199702121306.IAA14078@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > > > In all the above, it appears that the bottom line is property and > money. If property and money is not involved, then what is there to take > away. The Greatest of all reformers, Lord Buddha stated very clearly that > there is no need for any intermediary (priests) for any ones's salvation. So > for the practical application of Theosophical principles for each one of us > to help the Humanity no organization is needed. Who knows what is the > immediate future of TS as we know it. Even the great Roman Empire had its > hay days and then disappeared. May be some of those in Astrology may want to > see what the stars say say in the future 20 - 50 years. > Sorry, Doss. I wouldn't even touch what would happen to TS or TSA beyond the year 2000. The further one looks ahead in time, the more abstract it becomes. I've given my prediction for this year for TSA, which should indicate some MAJOR CHANGES, and some time back, I made my predictions for TS in the next 3 years. If what I'm interpreting is right, neither organization will be the same as it is now. Like other governmental and business structures, the structures of these theosophical organizations will be altered as the Aquarian energies effect them. There will be a demand for freedom, a voice in policy-making, open communications and an emphasis on the group, a rejection of central authority. What you are talking about with TS and its sections is one small scenario that will be played out globally. And with no small struggle. On one hand, you'll have those who are still entrenched in the Piscean ways of heirarchy, master and slave, boss and employee, dominant male and subservient female, where authority was taken as an absolute and assumed they had all the answers. Then there will be the those whose consciousness have been sensitive to the incoming energies, will be stimulated by that vision and energized to make it happen. Thus, the stage is set for struggle and change on a planetary level. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:04:40 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: More Trekkie Stuff Message-ID: <199702121306.IAA14088@newman.concentric.net> > From: Thoa Tran > "Star Trek The New Generation Lost Episode" Transcript > > > "Mr. LaForge, have you had any success with your attempts at finding a > weakness in the Borg? And Mr. Data, have you been able to access their > command pathways?" > > "Yes, Captain. In fact, we found the answer by searching through our > archives on late Twentieth-century computing technology." > > "What the hell is `Microsoft'?" > Thanks, Thoa. I'm forwarding this to my husband, who works in the computer section of the Amer. Dental Assoc. He'll love it! -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:20:01 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: What's Ahead? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970212132001.006cfd2c@mail.eden.com> At 08:08 AM 2/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> > >> In all the above, it appears that the bottom line is property and >> money. If property and money is not involved, then what is there to take >> away. The Greatest of all reformers, Lord Buddha stated very clearly that >> there is no need for any intermediary (priests) for any ones's salvation. So >> for the practical application of Theosophical principles for each one of us >> to help the Humanity no organization is needed. Who knows what is the >> immediate future of TS as we know it. Even the great Roman Empire had its >> hay days and then disappeared. May be some of those in Astrology may want to >> see what the stars say say in the future 20 - 50 years. >> >Sorry, Doss. I wouldn't even touch what would happen to TS or TSA beyond >the year 2000. The further one looks ahead in time, the more abstract it >becomes. I've given my prediction for this year for TSA, which should >indicate some MAJOR CHANGES, and some time back, I made my predictions >for TS in the next 3 years. If what I'm interpreting is right, neither >organization will be the same as it is now. Like other governmental >and business structures, the structures of these theosophical organizations will be >altered as the Aquarian energies effect them. There will be >a demand for freedom, a voice in policy-making, open communications >and an emphasis on the group, a rejection of central authority. >What you are talking about with TS and >its sections is one small scenario that will be played out globally. And >with no small struggle. > >On one hand, you'll have those who are still entrenched in the Piscean >ways of heirarchy, master and slave, boss and employee, dominant male and >subservient female, where authority was taken as an absolute and assumed they >had all the answers. > >Then there will be the those whose consciousness have been sensitive to >the incoming energies, will be stimulated by that vision and energized to make it happen. >Thus, the stage is set for struggle and change on a planetary level. > >-AEB > Ann: Thanks for the msg. Personally, I had an astrological prediction made by one of my college professors. It was very casual and off the wall. I did not pay much attention to it. But in the end, the prediction became true after 20 years. Looking back, on the day the prediction was made, I would have said that this man was wrong -- dead wrong. But somehow I did not think that way and events proved he was dead right. What he saw in the chart I do not know. Is not *true* brotherhood/sisterhood/siblinghood mean *no* discrimination in any shape or form for any purpose? Each one of us is unique and equally important no matter what our age, education, color, sex, beliefs, position, wealth, etc. etc. When we take off all the blinders and colored glasses, life may be much easier and joyful to deal with. There may be those who do not agree with one or the other above. So what? It is their problem. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed Feb 12 09:25:28 1997 From: John Straughn Subject: Unsubscribing Message-ID: <199702121425.JAA16193@envirolink.org> I going to have to leave the list for a while. I'm moving out so I won't have access to a computer quite as often. Does anyone know the address and message I need to write to unsubscribe? I remember listserv@micron(?).net but I don't think that is right. Thenwhat? --- The Triaist ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:45:49 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Seven Virgins Message-ID: <333ece16.82929774@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> K. Paul Johnson wrote: >At the Theosophical History Conference in 1992, Gregory Tillett >presented a paper on esoteric groups in Theosophy, and devoted >particular attention to the Seven Virgins of Java. A couple of >weeks after the conference, its organizer got a blistering >letter from John Algeo, expressing extreme dislike of Tillett's >paper and some others. Also complaining that Grace Knoche got >too much attention (this for an event held at Point Loma!) The >clincher was that his language conveyed an implicit threat to >prevent any TSA support or involvement in Theosophical History >Foundation events in the future, unless assurances were given >that obnoxious papers like Tillett's wouldn't ever again be >presented. "Obnoxious" refers to how something is said, not what was said. Could it have been the style that John objected to, rather than the content? ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:50:59 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Unsubscribing Message-ID: <3344d848.85539755@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> The Triaist wrote: >I going to have to leave the list for a while. You're just going to leave me to this pack of wolves? Come back soon! >Does anyone know the address and message >I need to write to unsubscribe? > >I remember listserv@micron(?).net but I don't think that is right. >Thenwhat? >From the instructions I received: To signoff or unsubscribe to the discussion list, send e-mail to listserv@vnet.net with the two words signoff Theos-L You must signoff from the exact same computer address as when you subscribed. Also do not use any key-words in the e-mail subject line such as "error". use a subject such as "thanks & bye" or even leave the subject line blank. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 97 10:14:10 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Shantara Message-ID: <199702121514.KAA10135@leo.vsla.edu> Following up Doss's research, I checked the 36 million item WorldCat database for works with either subject, author or title containing the word Shantara. There was nothing. Of course, this just proves how diabolical the takeover conspiracy is; people who have carefully concealed their existence for centuries (the database includes items cataloged as far back as the eleventh century) are scary adversaries indeed! We should be happy to relinquish all our rights to the TS/ES hierarchy if it will help fight this horrible foe. Alan, will you repost the TI list info? I'd like to get on in light of Christine's recent comments. Cheers Paul From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 97 9:54:30 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Tillett etc. Message-ID: <199702121454.JAA07167@leo.vsla.edu> Greg was not the original recipient of the letter; the man who was would not wish it to be made public, I'm sure. But I suspect at least one other person on the list, JHE, has seen it. As for an article, I don't recall how much if any of his paper has been published since the conference, but will try to check my indexes for Theosophical History. I think he's been working on it for years between other commitments. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:56:28 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Triangle/Tripod Message-ID: <199702121643.LAA22907@newman.concentric.net> > From: ramadoss@eden.com > > ====================== > > Leadbeater's final attempt to achieve his desired effect of merging > the idea of a community of young people with ceremonial work came in his > last group of pupils. These were all girls, from the Dutch East Indies, > chosen by Leadbeater during one of his visits to Java. The girls were sent > to The Manor by their parents, willingly or otherwise, in 1927-8, and > remained there with Leadbeater until he moved to settle permanently at > Adyar early in 1929. They were known as 'The Seven Virgins of Java', and > were related in Leadbeater's scheme of things both to the World Mother, Who > would manifest Her special force through them, to the powers behind the > Liberal Catholic Church and Co-Masonry, and to the still-surviving idea of > the World Teacher. Thanks for posting this. I'd never heard of it before and it was fascinating reading. As for the World Mother, the LCC services have a few brief references to her. There can be a ritual done after the service to "Our Lady". There can be a statue or picture, from any religion, of the Blessed Virgin and candles are lit. A two-paragraph/two minute adoration is recited, then the candles are extinguished. It is very brief and one gets the sense it is an afterthought. I've never gotten much out of it and IMHO, I think the World Mother has turned the bulk of her attention elsewhere. There is much more powerful and longer ritual to the WM in the form of a rosary, but I believe that was developed not by CWL, but by Rev. Lloyd Worley of the LCC sometime in the 1970's. -AEB . ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:49:05 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Shantara Message-ID: Paul: I appreciate your taking the time run the search. You would not believe what I first found in the search I made of the web. I used two search engines -- yahoo and hotbot. The first hit was a video game which has a character called Shantara -- someone's invention of a mythical character in the fictional action game. Wonder who is playing games? First when Christine posted the msg, she mentioned about the various psychic actions that she could be subjected to and I posted my response you may have seen. Now comes this imaginary group take over. Are we on ground or in some other plane. It looks like some one should have their head checked soon before it is too late. Again thanks for the research. _______________________________________________________ Peace to all living beings. M K Ramadoss On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, K. Paul Johnson wrote: > Following up Doss's research, I checked the 36 million item > WorldCat database for works with either subject, author or > title containing the word Shantara. There was nothing. Of > course, this just proves how diabolical the takeover conspiracy > is; people who have carefully concealed their existence for > centuries (the database includes items cataloged as far back as > the eleventh century) are scary adversaries indeed! We should > be happy to relinquish all our rights to the TS/ES hierarchy if > it will help fight this horrible foe. > > Alan, will you repost the TI list info? I'd like to get on in > light of Christine's recent comments. > > Cheers > Paul > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:21:55 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Seven Virgins of Java Message-ID: <9702122321.AA21513@toto.csustan.edu> >MKR > >PS: Since Dora Kunz (former National President of TS in America) >was one of the pupils of Leadbeater in Australia at that time, >and I think she is from Dutch East Indies, I am wondering if she >was one of "The "Seven Virgins of Java" mentioned below. Can >some historian clarify this? JHE Yes. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:22:43 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Canada and Denmark Message-ID: <9702122322.AA06770@toto.csustan.edu> >So, I would very much like to have as much knowledge of this as >possible so that I can counteract the fear mongering. Does anyone >know the "human" side of this (and the European situation) other >than the facts as presented in the article? > >Christine JHE The human side in both situations has to do with ego, power, greed and control. It is that simple--and that complicated. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:09:44 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Unsubscribing Message-ID: In message <199702121425.JAA16193@envirolink.org>, John Straughn writes >I going to have to leave the list for a while. I'm moving out so I won't have >access to a computer quite as often. What are we going to do for carrots? Alan :-( --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:00:35 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: You are unique like everyone else Message-ID: In message <199702120427.XAA10069@envirolink.org>, John Straughn writes >It's "Leave me alone, I'm busy" by The Hairless Purple Bunnies!!! >What do I win? A carrot holder (purple). Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:15:34 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Shantara Message-ID: In message <199702121514.KAA10135@leo.vsla.edu>, "K. Paul Johnson" writes >Alan, will you repost the TI list info? I'd like to get on in >light of Christine's recent comments. > >Cheers >Paul Can you be more precise? You want the membership list, or the intro stuff as on the web site or what? Maybe you mean ti-l? If so send a post to listproc@vnet.net with no subject and the single line subscribe ti-l K. Paul Johnson Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:08:58 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: What's Ahead? Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970212132001.006cfd2c@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >Is not *true* brotherhood/sisterhood/siblinghood mean *no* discrimination in >any shape or form for any purpose? Each one of us is unique and equally >important no matter what our age, education, color, sex, beliefs, position, >wealth, etc. etc. When we take off all the blinders and colored glasses, >life may be much easier and joyful to deal with. This is the TI view. Time to sign up .... Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:56:09 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 896 Message-ID: <970212205603_105435278@emout03.mail.aol.com> Alan, In a message dated 97-02-11 21:01:33 EST, you write: > >"Flounder at Large" > > I think you're fishing with that one. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:06:19 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 896 Message-ID: <970212205246_-1976820469@emout14.mail.aol.com> Ann, >Ah, yes, The one that someone slipped into Olcott's rental video collection. What's the title now? "Early Founders"? "Floundering Early"? "The Early Flounder"? "My Date with a Founder"? "A Flounder tells All"? "The Naked Flounder"? I think it was "Flounders in Bondage." Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:08:38 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: What's Ahead? Message-ID: <970212210837_-1375022050@emout04.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-12 11:34:32 EST, you write: >There may be those who do not agree with one or the other above. So what? It >is their problem. > > The question of whose problem it is may ultimately depend on who has the cannon. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:09:59 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: What's Ahead? Message-ID: <970212210604_2026734107@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-12 11:24:45 EST, you write: Ann, >Then there will be the those whose consciousness have been sensitive to >the incoming energies, will be stimulated by that vision and energized to >make it happen. >Thus, the stage is set for struggle and change on a planetary level. > >-AEB > > And six months or so from now when the psionic death ray is fully operational things will really get interesting. Chuck the Heretic And don't forget to visit the bestest most perfect web page in the whole world http://www.amargiland.com/charles-cosimano ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:15:32 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Shantara Message-ID: <970212211529_75996583@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-12 13:57:29 EST, you write: > >The first hit was a video game which has a character called Shantara -- >someone's invention of a mythical character in the fictional action game. > >Wonder who is playing games? > > Do you mean I was getting ready to fire up the psionic death ray for nothing?!? DRAT! Chuck the Heretic And when you have the time don't forget to drop in to the best web site in all creation http://www.amargiland.com/charles-cosimano Amargi is doing it for me and his work is so good I can hardly believe it. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:17:06 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Seven Virgins of Java Message-ID: <970212211705_-1976820439@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-12 18:49:03 EST, you write: >>PS: Since Dora Kunz (former National President of TS in America) >>was one of the pupils of Leadbeater in Australia at that time, >>and I think she is from Dutch East Indies, I am wondering if she >>was one of "The "Seven Virgins of Java" mentioned below. Can >>some historian clarify this? > >JHE >Yes. And fortunately, as Dora can attest, virginity is a condition that is easily curable. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:19:04 -0000 From: Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB Subject: The future of the TS Message-ID: <01BC1954.59225220@rvik-ppp-118.ismennt.is> MKR wrote: >5. The National Board and or Adyar can shut down the Section. Once this is >done, all charters of lodges and study centers are automatically cancelled, >which immediately triggers seizure of assets. Etc. Einar Here. In all this debate on the TS and TSA, I think we have to recognize the fact that "The Theosophical Society, Adyar" is an international body, having its sections and branches throughout the world. When you join the TS, you really join TS Adyar, an international society. You can then choose to be a member of a certain Branch, within a section (the "default" choice), or you can be a member at large, of a Section, or you can be (under certain conditions, I believe) attached directlyto the headquarters in Adyar without belonging to any section or branch at all. Because its an international society, the powers to rule are naturally ultimately vested in the International Government of the Society, the General Council and the International President. Sections and branches are then naturally only practical subdivisions of the one Society, with their "limited" freedom of government, as long as the "general guidelines" set by the General Council and the Bylaws of the International Society or National Sections are not grossly violated. We can of course criticizes the handling of the powers vested in the various elected governments within this structure, which has after all handed the TS to us through the 120 odd years of sailing through rough sea, but we have to recognize that they are elected to take hand of these powers, it's their "Duty" to rule and keep the Society running properly. There has been some discussion among members in some sections, whether there should be some other, more modern, or more up to date structure of government within the Society. The former GS of the English Section wrote an interesting article of a "network structure" that would have no hierarchy of power, but to be built up as groups of services interacting and cooperating freely out of some necessity, without any authority. He used the Internet as a model. Its an interesting Idea, but I'm afraid that it's still an Utopia, and will be for some time to come. Regarding the Denmark incident, I really don't know the lot, but to my understanding the group began revolving solely around one person, the GS in office, and did do very little "theosophy" in the usual term of the word. In another words, it had become a "CULT" around a single person's ideas and believes (mostly around his alleged spiritual powers and prophetic visions I believe). When the "old" members turned to the headquarters to see if something could be done, the Section was simply changed into an independent association by "lawful" voting, and all the assets from a century of theosophical activities were "confiscated" by the new "Theosophy Association". The few old members had simply nothing to say in this matter and stood empty handed on the street, so to speak. Anyone can have their own idea on who's rights was maintained or not in this case, but from the standpoint of the International Society this was a clear "theft", lawfully or not. I also know that a similar incident was just avoided in Ireland few years ago, involving a considerable amount of assets, nearly lost to a handful of "enthusiastic" newcomers. I hope this will cast some light on matters Love and light, Einar from Iceland. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:37:06 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Tongue in cheek Message-ID: <970212205841_2026734098@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-11 22:11:15 EST, you write: > >> At Ommen Camp on August 3, 1929 Krishnamurti by his own act dissolved the >>Order, And a couple of months later the stock market crashed. Hmmmmm. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:39:03 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: What's Ahead? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213033903.006840bc@mail.eden.com> At 09:13 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >Doss, > >In a message dated 97-02-12 11:34:32 EST, you write: > >>There may be those who do not agree with one or the other above. So what? It >>is their problem. >> >> > >The question of whose problem it is may ultimately depend on who has the >cannon. > >Chuck the Heretic > It's is true. .doss ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:51:42 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Thoa started it... Message-ID: <199702130351.TAA02166@proxy1.ba.best.com> Titus: >Oh Thoa, > >You shouldn't have started those Bill Gates jokes ... I know. I paid for it by dreaming about him last night. He and I arrived at the same time at a McDonald's (me and McDonald's, yech!). I was hankering for fries and he was checking up on his latest acquisition. He had on one of those dorky bicycle helmet and the bicycle had a baby seat attached to it (I noticed that people don't usually like to look dorky until they become parents, then it's the diaper bag, etc. Good cute viewing amusement.). I spoke briefly to him, then flew off (literally) in my chair. No, not a broom. Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:52:32 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Unsubscribing Message-ID: <199702130352.TAA03862@proxy1.ba.best.com> Mary P.: >The Triaist wrote: >>I going to have to leave the list for a while. >You're just going to leave me to this pack of wolves? Come back soon! Awooooooooooooooo...no carrot for lunch...awoooooooooooooooooo! Have a good move, John (No, I'm not cursing you). Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:53:04 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: The Seven Virgins Message-ID: <199702130353.TAA04543@proxy1.ba.best.com> A very effective thing that helps stimulate the "special force" of the "World Mother" is the tradition of the wise woman. A wise woman who has years of experience behind her help guide the younger woman with her view points and tales of her life. The wise woman will help the younger woman see her own special qualities and know that they are worthy of respect by all. The wisdom of an older and experienced woman, to me, is more effective than any learning of rituals by virgins. I enjoy very much the company of wise older women. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:21:27 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Ta Ta For Now Message-ID: <330296C5.49A4@withoutwalls.com> Triaist wrote: >I going to have to leave the list for a while. I'm moving out so I won't have >access to a computer quite as often. The carrot uproots. Happy Trails. Hope you find a new garden soon. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 20:26:25 -0800 From: Mark Kusek Subject: Seven Virgins of Java Message-ID: <330297EF.1419@withoutwalls.com> >>A couple of weeks after the conference, its organizer got a blistering >>letter from John Algeo, expressing extreme dislike of Tillett's >>paper and some others. >"Obnoxious" refers to how something is said, not what was said. Could >it have been the style that John objected to, rather than the content? Maybe he was just mad because his travel agent had said there weren't any more virgins in Java. Mark -------- WITHOUT WALLS: An Internet Art Space http://www.withoutwalls.com E-mail: mark@withoutwalls.com ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:56:46 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213045646.006d9190@mail.eden.com> At 09:32 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >MKR wrote: > >>5. The National Board and or Adyar can shut down the Section. Once this is >>done, all charters of lodges and study centers are automatically cancelled, >>which immediately triggers seizure of assets. >Etc. > >Einar Here. > >In all this debate on the TS and TSA, I think we have to recognize the fact >that "The Theosophical Society, Adyar" is an international body, having its sections >and branches throughout the world. When you join the TS, you really join TS Adyar, >an international society. You can then choose to be a member of a certain Branch, >within a section (the "default" choice), or you can be a member at large, of a Section, >or you can be (under certain conditions, I believe) attached directlyto the headquarters >in Adyar without belonging to any section or branch at all. > >Because its an international society, the powers to rule are naturally ultimately vested >in the International Government of the Society, the General Council and the International >President. >Sections and branches are then naturally only practical subdivisions of the one Society, >with their "limited" freedom of government, as long as the "general guidelines" set by the >General Council and the Bylaws of the International Society or National Sections are not >grossly violated. > >We can of course criticizes the handling of the powers vested in the various elected >governments within this structure, which has after all handed the TS to us through >the 120 odd years of sailing through rough sea, but we have to recognize that they are >elected to take hand of these powers, it's their "Duty" to rule and keep the Society >running properly. > >There has been some discussion among members in some sections, whether there >should be some other, more modern, or more up to date structure of government within >the Society. The former GS of the English Section wrote an interesting article of a >"network structure" that would have no hierarchy of power, but to be built up as groups >of services interacting and cooperating freely out of some necessity, without any >authority. He used the Internet as a model. >Its an interesting Idea, but I'm afraid that it's still an Utopia, and will be for some >time to come. > >Regarding the Denmark incident, I really don't know the lot, but to my understanding >the group began revolving solely around one person, the GS in office, and did do >very little "theosophy" in the usual term of the word. In another words, it had become >a "CULT" around a single person's ideas and believes (mostly around his alleged >spiritual powers and prophetic visions I believe). When the "old" members turned >to the headquarters to see if something could be done, the Section was simply >changed into an independent association by "lawful" voting, and all the assets from a >century of theosophical activities were "confiscated" by the new "Theosophy Association". > >The few old members had simply nothing to say in this matter and stood empty handed >on the street, so to speak. > >Anyone can have their own idea on who's rights was maintained or not in this case, >but from the standpoint of the International Society this was a clear "theft", lawfully or not. > >I also know that a similar incident was just avoided in Ireland few years ago, involving >a considerable amount of assets, nearly lost to a handful of "enthusiastic" newcomers. > > >I hope this will cast some light on matters > >Love and light, > >Einar from Iceland. > Thanks Einar for the information. When I wrote about the quote you quoted, it is as summary of the current legal situation in the USA due to the way the current by-laws stand, even though the recent bylaw changes are open to court challenges because many attorneys are of the opinion that TSA did not follow its own by-laws meticulously. One of the things that happened during the bylaw change was, when someone raised the concern that GC may arbitrarily cancel a section charter, because that is what it appeared from the outside as far as the Danish situation was concerned, the response from the US National President was that the matter in Denmark was not simplistic and was more complicated (I am quoting from memory and this is the substance) and instead of trying to explain in simple terms the fundamental problem that existed over in Denmark. This, to many of us looked like not forthcoming and open. We have members who deal with more complicated issues on a daily basis and can understand any issue if sufficient details are provided. There are many professionals, lawyers, chartered/certified accountants, business men and women in the membership and it is almost like an insult to their intelligence and capability to understand complex matters. I know that cancelling charter decisions are very difficult to take and I had a gut feeling there was some legitimate and serious reason behind each one of them. In this day and age, at least in the United States, many of us do expect some reasonable answers to reasonable questions. May be it is due to the unique culture that exists in the United States. Personally I am aware of how many of the valuable properties in many lodges around the world were the result of sacrifices of many many *not* affluent individual members who made small but difficult contributions and other personal sacrifices in the past. All and every means should be used to make sure those assets are not used up or "taken" over (now or in the future) by a group of people with a different agenda but not Theosophy -- by that I mean the fundamental object being Philanthropy, as clearly stated by the Real Founders. On another front, when the bylaws were changed and the provision that in case the section charter was revoked or cancelled (either voluntarily or involuntarily,) the proposed provision that all assets will be turned over to a Trust, I had great concerns. Turning all assets over to the Trust is ok. But how do you make the Trustees accountable. Just *trusting* them to do the right thing is not enough. Money and the power it gives can change people in most unexpected ways. So when things are setup, they need to have strong built-in safeguards which will stand the test of time. As it is currently set up, the Trustees are not accountable to *any* *one*. They can do almost anything they want and need not disclose anything to anyone, except for some routine filing of tax information papers with the Federal Government which tells very little. I even suggested that concurrent with the bylaws change, the Trust provisions should be altered concurrently to protect the Trust from its Trustees. I even went as far as suggesting that the International President be made an ex-officio member of the Trust so that there will be at least there will be some protection. All this I communicated in writing to Wheaton and to this day we have not heard nothing. There was no response for even a request for a copy of the current trust document and the bylaws. I suppose the current laws do not require the Trustees to provide these to anyone including a dues paying member of TSA. One wonders why the secrecy and non responsiveness. While the above concern may not materialize in the current administration, I am looking down the road 30 - 50 years when most of us would be dead and gone and what all it takes is a strong charismatic leader who can make such a thing to happen. The above contigency situation is not based on my imagination. Trustees working against the purpose of the trust has happened before. If so it can happen again. Let me give a summary of a classic instance to those who may not be aware. Several decades ago, Krishnamurti Writings Inc, and I believe another charitable trust was set up and many individuals contributed funds to help Krishnaji to travel, talk, print his talks, duplicate audio and video tapes for sale and distribution to those interested. Initially Krishnaji was a Trustee of the Trust. Some time later, Krishnaji resigned as a Trustee. He generally was not concerned about the business matters and trusted the Trustees and left it to them to manage the trust assets and business. In course of time, his business manager who was managing the trust, ended up in total control of the trust and of course he had a group of trustees who appears did not have much of a say in the trust matters. At later date, when when a situation arose and Krishnaji wanted to know the disposition of some of the moneys donated to the trust, he could not get any information whatsoever. Sometime later he was even prevented from using the Trust properties in California and Madras to conduct his lectures. Finally he told the Trust that he will not accept any money from the Trust and he started a new Foundation to take care of the new funds donated for his work. Ultimately, the Attorney General of California and the some of the Trustees of the new Foundation had to sue the Old Trust and its Trustees to recover the assets. The litigation went on for 18 years (at a great legal expense to both parties) and was finally settled only after his death. There were three law suits. One of them by the Trustees of the old Trust (Krishnamurti Writings Inc.) against Krishnaji and the Trustees of the new Foundation for $9.0 million in damages. I believe many of the Trustees of the old trustees were also members of TSA. All these are documented in the public records of the courts. And until couple of years ago, every thing was kept quiet and very little was known to the public and I just accidentally ran into it and it is more real than fiction. If this could happen when Krishnamurti himself was alive and with a Trust setup to help him teach, one can imagine what could happen to a Trust where no one is legally answerable to *anyone*. Sorry that the response was long. It was necessary to explain the current climate and background of TS in America. Anyhow, I am appreciative of your response. Peace to all living beings M K Ramadoss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:13:51 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: The Seven Virgins Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213051351.006d7300@mail.eden.com> At 11:03 PM 2/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >A very effective thing that helps stimulate the "special force" of the >"World Mother" is the tradition of the wise woman. A wise woman who has >years of experience behind her help guide the younger woman with her view >points and tales of her life. The wise woman will help the younger woman >see her own special qualities and know that they are worthy of respect by >all. The wisdom of an older and experienced woman, to me, is more effective >than any learning of rituals by virgins. I enjoy very much the company of >wise older women. > >Thoa I have always found that the wisdom of older women is very helpful to anyone - woman or man. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:38:02 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: <9702130538.AA00805@toto.csustan.edu> >MKR wrote: > >>5. The National Board and or Adyar can shut down the Section. >>Once this is done, all charters of lodges and study centers are >>automatically cancelled, which immediately triggers seizure of >>assets. Etc. >Einar Here. > >In all this debate on the TS and TSA, I think we have to >recognize the fact that "The Theosophical Society, Adyar" is an >international body, having its sections and branches throughout >the world. When you join the TS, you really join TS Adyar, an >international society. You can then choose to be a member >of a certain Branch, within a section (the "default" choice), or >you can be a member at large, of a Section, or you can be (under >certain conditions, I believe) attached directly to the >headquarters in Adyar without belonging to any section or branch >at all. JHE Is someone disputing this? EINAR >Because its an international society, the powers to rule are >naturally ultimately vested in the International Government of >the Society, the General Council and the International >President. Sections and branches are then naturally only >practical subdivisions of the one Society, with their "limited" >freedom of government, as long as the "general guidelines" set >by the General Council and the Bylaws of the International >Society or National Sections are not grossly violated. JHE Yes. And the recent American Section bylaw changes were designed to better conform to the changes being made at the international level. Is someone disputing this? EINAR >We can of course criticizes the handling of the powers vested in >the various elected governments within this structure, which has >after all handed the TS to us through the 120 odd years of >sailing through rough sea, but we have to recognize that they >are elected to take hand of these powers, it's their "Duty" to >rule and keep the Society running properly. JHE 'Their `Duty' to rule"? Now there is a slip that reveals the true situation. In a democratic organization, which the TS purports to be, the duty of the elected officers is to be custodians to the will and needs of the membership. EINAR >There has been some discussion among members in some sections, >whether there should be some other, more modern, or more up to >date structure of government within the Society. The former GS >of the English Section wrote an interesting article of a >"network structure" that would have no hierarchy of power, but >to be built up as groups of services interacting and cooperating >freely out of some necessity, without any authority. He used the >Internet as a model. Its an interesting Idea, but I'm afraid >that it's still an Utopia, and will be for some time to come. JHE By any chance, have you inquired into the reasons why that person is no longer the General Secretary? EINAR >Regarding the Denmark incident, I really don't know the lot, but >to my understanding the group began revolving solely around one >person, the GS in office, and did do very little "theosophy" in >the usual term of the word. In another words, it had become a >"CULT" around a single person's ideas and believes (mostly >around his alleged spiritual powers and prophetic visions I >believe). When the "old" members turned to the headquarters to >see if something could be done, the Section was simply changed >into an independent association by "lawful" voting, and all the >assets from a century of theosophical activities were >"confiscated" by the new "Theosophy Association". > >The few old members had simply nothing to say in this matter and >stood empty handed on the street, so to speak. JHE Is this the official Adyar version of the story? Concerning "old members", are you suggesting that your judgement of this incident is based upon age or length of membership of the people involved?--that a member of twenty years has, perhaps, twice the authority of a member of, say, ten years? Assuming for a moment that the situation in Denmark was exactly as you described, where in the National or International bylaws does it say that the majority of the members in a Section do not have the right to have faith in "a single person's ideas and beliefs"? Seems that this is exactly what happened during the days of Annie Besant. And by the way, what do you mean by "`theosophy' in the usual term of the word"? EINAR >Anyone can have their own idea on who's rights was maintained or >not in this case, but from the standpoint of the International >Society this was a clear "theft", lawfully or not. JHE I'm sure it was a "clear `theft'" from the standpoint of the International Society. They sure spent a lot of money to prevent it. But from the standpoint of better than 90% of the membership of that Section, and from the standpoint of Danish law, justice was served. EINAR >I also know that a similar incident was just avoided in Ireland >few years ago, involving a considerable amount of assets, nearly >lost to a handful of "enthusiastic" newcomers. JHE I would like to hear more about that. Which Lodge, and when was it founded? What was the issue? EINAR >I hope this will cast some light on matters JHE It does. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:32:46 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Seven Virgins Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213063246.0070b19c@mail.eden.com> At 06:53 AM 2/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >At the Theosophical History Conference in 1992, Gregory Tillett >presented a paper on esoteric groups in Theosophy, and devoted >particular attention to the Seven Virgins of Java. A couple of >weeks after the conference, its organizer got a blistering >letter from John Algeo, expressing extreme dislike of Tillett's >paper and some others. Also complaining that Grace Knoche got >too much attention (this for an event held at Point Loma!) The >clincher was that his language conveyed an implicit threat to >prevent any TSA support or involvement in Theosophical History >Foundation events in the future, unless assurances were given >that obnoxious papers like Tillett's wouldn't ever again be >presented. We all know he who pays the piper calls the tune. I do not know how much of the funding, if any, came from TSA. May be it is time to look for funding elsewhere. If you do not expect any money or other non monetary support or favor from any one or any organization, then there is nothing it/they can do. They can be unhappy etc. It is their problem. With Internet, anybody and everybody can prepare a paper and post it for free. And many all over the world will be able to read them. No organization can control or censor any of it however much they would like. Is that not the old way things were done. I would like to see a copy of Tillett's and other papers posted here. If Paul or anyone has a copy or access to a copy, I can get excerpts posted so that each one of us can see for ourselves what the various issues and viewpoints are. Also it would be interesting to see Algeo's letter and Tillett's response. What is it that Algeo did not like in Tillett's papers and some others. Is he responding in his private capacity or speaking for TSA? Is it the new facts dug up by Tillet and others or their interpretations or conclusions? If Grace Knoche got too much attention, so what. Did Algeo want all attention for himself? > >My source for this, among others, is Tillett, who showed me the >letter involved and wrote his own response. > MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:33:32 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Seven Virgins Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213063332.00698b6c@mail.eden.com> At 06:53 AM 2/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >At the Theosophical History Conference in 1992, Gregory Tillett >presented a paper on esoteric groups in Theosophy, and devoted >particular attention to the Seven Virgins of Java. A couple of >weeks after the conference, its organizer got a blistering >letter from John Algeo, expressing extreme dislike of Tillett's >paper and some others. Also complaining that Grace Knoche got >too much attention (this for an event held at Point Loma!) The >clincher was that his language conveyed an implicit threat to >prevent any TSA support or involvement in Theosophical History >Foundation events in the future, unless assurances were given >that obnoxious papers like Tillett's wouldn't ever again be >presented. > >My source for this, among others, is Tillett, who showed me the >letter involved and wrote his own response. > >Just goes to show that the effort to exclude history they don't >like from consideration by the membership is an ever-recurring >feature of this organization with the motto "No religion higher >than truth." > >It felt *so* good to throw the membership renewal form in the >garbage this week. > Let me add a few further comments. For those of you who are newbees, Gregory Tillett is the author of a Biography of C W Leadbeater titled "The Elder Brother" published by Routledge & Kegan Paul in 1982. ISBN 0-7100-0926-7. It appears to be a very well researched and documented book. Has anyone seen any reviews or responses questioning or pointing out in accuracies in the book? At least I have not. If anyone has any info, please post. CWL is one of the most prolific writers and his writings have helped many. But many members of TS seem to lionize him forgetting after all he is human and had serious defects. Until Tillett published the book, of course very little was known of some of these serious defects/problems. So many do not like the book, not because of any inaccuracies, but because it appears that they do not want any of the secret problems of their idol to be known to the world. If anyone has anything to say about Tilletts book, let him/her post a msg. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:09:45 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 904 Message-ID: <199702130709.SAA20402@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> Paul said >Alan, will you repost the TI list info? I'd like to get on in >light of Christine's recent comments. Woops, which ones were they? Do you want to get behind some kind of TI - on the ground - move? Or do you have some other reason? CMK said >>So, I would very much like to have as much knowledge of this as >>possible so that I can counteract the fear mongering. Does >anyone >>know the "human" side of this (and the European situation) >other >>than the facts as presented in the article? >> >>Christine > >JHE >The human side in both situations has to do with ego, power, >greed and control. It is that simple--and that complicated. > Not really. I was being a little more specific. I didn't realise I would know more about the Shantara group that you people. They are a small group here in Australia who originally came from Denmark and whose name has been linked with the political problems both there and in Canada by INUENDO only. I want to know if there is any fact in this. They are a very small group here who do not seem to be the remotest bit interested in our Lodge, so there is every chance that they are no more than an imaginary bogeyman being used to keep the children frightened. The bogey man seems to take the form of any person who wants to change things being part of a takeover conspiracy by some other group (Masons, Co-masons and LCC aside of course). I wouldn't mind proving the falsity of that bogeyman, by being able to circulate the facts. Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:09:51 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 905 Message-ID: <199702130709.SAA20420@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> Einar said >In all this debate on the TS and TSA, I think we have to recognize the fact >that "The Theosophical Society, Adyar" is an international body, having its sections >and branches throughout the world. When you join the TS, you really join TS Adyar, >an international society. You can then choose to be a member of a certain Branch, >within a section (the "default" choice), or you can be a member at large, of a Section, >or you can be (under certain conditions, I believe) attached directlyto the headquarters >in Adyar without belonging to any section or branch at all. I have been wondering about exactly this point. I would actually beg to differ with you on this. When I joined, I specificlly joined my local lodge which was going through a vibrant phase at the time. I doubt I would have joined other lodges in Australia and am still less likely to have joined Adyar. So whatever the technicalities are, what is the human motivation? We hear next to nothing about Section at out Lodge, and even less about Adyar, and our program is unique in the world (even though it is not unique enough). This is very different from my joining of AMORC, in which I knew from the outset that I had joined an international body. I know the perpective of the Lodge is very local. I was also womdering about the money. We are very wealthy, but Iwonder if the bequests which set up our wealth were made to our local Lodge, Theosophy in Australia, or International Theosophy. I don't know the answer to this, but again I suspect that it would have been to our local Lodge. The autonomy was a very big point of the early days, and I seriously wonder if we would be half as wealthy as we are now had bequests to be made to Adyar rather than locally. I am researching just how autonomous we now are in Australia as a result of Doss's comments, and I am sure that our membership will be more than a little distressed if we are in the same situation as the US. Its a curious point. >Because its an international society, the powers to rule are naturally ultimately vested >in the International Government of the Society, the General Council and the International >President. >Sections and branches are then naturally only practical subdivisions of the one Society, >with their "limited" freedom of government, as long as the "general guidelines" set by the >General Council and the Bylaws of the International Society or National Sections are not >grossly violated. We are governed by Australian Companies Law. So although Adyar may over-rule Secton and Section may over-rule local, the Australian Securities Commission has the last say in areas which infringe upon Australian Companies Law. >We can of course criticizes the handling of the powers vested in the various elected >governments within this structure, which has after all handed the TS to us through >the 120 odd years of sailing through rough sea, but we have to recognize that they are >elected to take hand of these powers, it's their "Duty" to rule and keep the Society >running properly. Einar, I understand where you are coming from with this, but you (and Adyar) seem to have an innately hierarchical view of the world, and see those elected as masters rather than servants. The original society was set up as a "bottom up" approach, and until recent times has been exceptionally (financially) successful at this. I wonder if it's success started to decline when the true egalitiarian principles began to be eroded? We may not need to look to a completely new management model, but a variation which is true to the original intentions. >Regarding the Denmark incident, I really don't know the lot, but to my understanding >the group began revolving solely around one person, the GS in office, and did do >very little "theosophy" in the usual term of the word. In another words, it had become >a "CULT" around a single person's ideas and believes (mostly around his alleged >spiritual powers and prophetic visions I believe). When the "old" members turned >to the headquarters to see if something could be done, the Section was simply >changed into an independent association by "lawful" voting, and all the assets from a >century of theosophical activities were "confiscated" by the new "Theosophy Association". How is this group faring now? This is normal bogey man stuff, but is it possible that this group was actually facing up to the changes which have to be made if the TS is to survive into next centruy. This is a genuine question - I dislike the egotistical guru like leadership myself, which is why I hate to see it infiltrating the TS in the guise of Blavtskyism, Sinnettism, or Leadbeaterism (particularly the latter two who I see as thoroughly nasty patriarchs of the worst kind). Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:08:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: The Elder Brother by Tillett Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213120824.00735cf0@mail.eden.com> Has anyone seen a review of this book in AT? ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:48:04 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Hierarchical Structure Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213124804.0068f3cc@mail.eden.com> Some years ago, the GS of England wrote an article about the Hierarchical Structure of TS and effect of information age on it. As I recall from memory, the article raised the question as what kind of changes that may be necessary or coming to make the TS very efficient in it operation. This question applies to all organizations in today's world. Transportation and communication are the two key elements of efficiency. We have seen that the Adepts has at their disposal the most efficient means of both. So it appears that we ordinary mortals are moving in the direction of having faster means of transportation and communication and they are bound to affect the way we do business. I have seen first hand the effect of e-mail communication in large corporations. Almost 20 years ago, I was a lower level technical employee and on technical matters which had nothing to do with administration and finances, routinely there was exchange of communication directly between myself and some of the top most officers of the corporation. These took place without the communication passing through formal hierarchical channels. I have also seen the typical British hierarchical bureaucratic system established almost 200 years ago in the colonies and how inefficient they are. So far, what we have seen, is that in all matters -- technical, philosophical, and financial and administrative, organizations like TS have used the hierarchical means of communication. Usually the prime medium is the periodical newsletter or magazine that is sent out from Adyar or National/Sectional Headquarters. It is mostly one way communication. Top down with very little bottom up. We are dealing with human beings at all levels of the hierarchy, each with their own egos, ambitions (spiritual or otherwise), prejudices, biases coupled with money and property and the real or imaginary power that is derived from it. So what we see is that all communication gets distorted by the time the recipient receives them. I do not see an easy way to fix it until may be in a future manvantara all of us are perfected Supermen/Superwomen. In Internet e-mail and other cyberspace tools, we have an unbelievable opportunity and a challenge. In matters of money and property, there may be a need for hierarchical structure. In all matters of communication, there is a levelling in that all of us are in the same level playing field. Each one of us can communicate with anyone who has access to e-mail, no matter where the person is physically located. The communication is direct. The communication is not distorted or censored. This direct communication also allows us to communicate with a large number of people, ie broadcasting. Coupled with this is the fact that some have tried to impose the framework of the information control methodolgy built-in pre Internet age. Some have tried to have "moderated" == censored e-mail lists. Small lists can be moderated or censored. Large ones cannot. Take one for example if we had 10,000 members on the list, and 10% of them post 10 messages a day, we would seen need an army of censors just to read them. In addition, because of the nature of the communication medium, users will bypass and start parallel means of communication. So all evidence seem to point to the breakdown of the traditional hierarchical means of communication. We all need to be prepared to make use of the unusual fundamental characteristic of the new communication medium. Any organization which refuses to move with the times and clings to the old means is likely to be either left behind or run over by the newer tool. So I see a day when all Theosophists world over will have multi-way communication with everyone from the ordinary member, visitor, to the highest elected leader. We may not have a choice in the matter. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:12:46 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 905 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970213151246.00758cf8@mail.eden.com> At 02:30 AM 2/13/97 -0500, you wrote: >I was also womdering about the money. We are very wealthy, but Iwonder if >the bequests which set up our wealth were made to our local Lodge, Theosophy >in Australia, or International Theosophy. I don't know the answer to this, >but again I suspect that it would have been to our local Lodge. The >autonomy was a very big point of the early days, and I seriously wonder if >we would be half as wealthy as we are now had bequests to be made to Adyar >rather than locally. I am researching just how autonomous we now are in >Australia as a result of Doss's comments, and I am sure that our membership >will be more than a little distressed if we are in the same situation as the US. There is another issue that *will* surface down the road. The way, at least in the USA, the current (some knowledgeable people consider illegal) by-laws state, if a lodge loses its charter all the assets will be transferred to the National Office. Say a year after this takes place and a new lodge reincarnates, there is no requirement that the funds be returned to the custody of the new lodge, even though for cosmetics sake it says it will be used for local Theosophy purpose. Instead what is going to happen is, it will trickle down to the lodge only for those activities that meet the arbitrary approval of the National Officials. Since the national office will control the purse strings, it will control the activities at the local level. It is but a natural human tendency that once anyone or any entity takes possession of property or money, it is very difficult to let go. In a situation like the above, the only recourse is to go to the courts. And again who has the money to defend their action, it is the National Office. And again due to the natural traditional secrecy with which at least TSA leadership functions, a new local lodge may not even be able to get any information from TSA. I am not speculating. I am just extrapolating. For example the Illinois Law clearly states that all non profit organizations (TSA is incorporated in Illinois non profit corporation act) are required to permit access to *all* books and records to any member in good standing; this includes membership lists. But we have seen Federations having difficulty in getting access to it even for legitimate theosophical activities. (Here I am refering to the recent effort of Montana theosophists trying to revive the activities there and we saw a recent post on it). The bottom line is that the whole issue need to be addressed rather carefully and not top down only but both top down and bottom up. May be we need to have brainstorming sessions at grass roots level and see how not only we can reach the objectives of protecting the assets as well as flexible enough so that the assets are well spent and effectively used. MKR > >Its a curious point. > >>Because its an international society, the powers to rule are naturally >ultimately vested >>in the International Government of the Society, the General Council and the >International >>President. >>Sections and branches are then naturally only practical subdivisions of the >one Society, >>with their "limited" freedom of government, as long as the "general >guidelines" set by the >>General Council and the Bylaws of the International Society or National >Sections are not >>grossly violated. > >We are governed by Australian Companies Law. So although Adyar may >over-rule Secton and Section may over-rule local, the Australian Securities >Commission has the last say in areas which infringe upon Australian >Companies Law. > >>We can of course criticizes the handling of the powers vested in the >various elected >>governments within this structure, which has after all handed the TS to us >through >>the 120 odd years of sailing through rough sea, but we have to recognize >that they are >>elected to take hand of these powers, it's their "Duty" to rule and keep >the Society >>running properly. > >Einar, I understand where you are coming from with this, but you (and Adyar) >seem to have an innately hierarchical view of the world, and see those >elected as masters rather than servants. The original society was set up as >a "bottom up" approach, and until recent times has been exceptionally >(financially) successful at this. I wonder if it's success started to >decline when the true egalitiarian principles began to be eroded? We may >not need to look to a completely new management model, but a variation which >is true to the original intentions. > >>Regarding the Denmark incident, I really don't know the lot, but to my >understanding >>the group began revolving solely around one person, the GS in office, and >did do >>very little "theosophy" in the usual term of the word. In another words, it >had become >>a "CULT" around a single person's ideas and believes (mostly around his >alleged >>spiritual powers and prophetic visions I believe). When the "old" members >turned >>to the headquarters to see if something could be done, the Section was simply >>changed into an independent association by "lawful" voting, and all the >assets from a >>century of theosophical activities were "confiscated" by the new "Theosophy >Association". > >How is this group faring now? This is normal bogey man stuff, but is it >possible that this group was actually facing up to the changes which have to >be made if the TS is to survive into next centruy. This is a genuine >question - I dislike the egotistical guru like leadership myself, which is >why I hate to see it infiltrating the TS in the guise of Blavtskyism, >Sinnettism, or Leadbeaterism (particularly the latter two who I see as >thoroughly nasty patriarchs of the worst kind). > >Christine > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:03:54 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Hierarchical Structure Message-ID: <970213110348_-1877367391@emout10.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-13 07:49:40 EST, you write: > >So I see a day when all Theosophists world over will have multi-way >communication with everyone from the ordinary member, visitor, to the >highest elected leader. We may not have a choice in the matter. > > We aren't the ones who will be bothered by it. Social mythologies change, and there will be a time long after these vehicles have gone to the astral scrap yard that heirarchy will make a comeback, but for the time being, it is dead as a means of social control and those who cling to it are going to be in the terribly embarrassing position of making pronouncements that will simply be ignored or laughed at. What is peculiar is the that powers that be in the US section know this. John Algeo makes jokes about how little respect he gets all the time which makes one wonder if he isn't a closet Rodney Dangerfield fan (a good reason not to respect him if true) but they seem to be caught in a bind. Being good ESers they are forced to accept a system that they know isn't going to hold up with the membership as a whole, and that, combined with the nature of American culture which rejects the right of anyone to tell anyone else what to do puts them on a collision course with the ideas they have internalized. If this keeps up, the Olcott Institution may become more than just a joke. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:06:29 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 905 Message-ID: <970213110620_1929068964@emout19.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-13 10:12:16 EST, you write: >The bottom line is that the whole issue need to be addressed rather >carefully and not top down only but both top down and bottom up. May be we >need to have brainstorming sessions at grass roots level and see how not >only we can reach the objectives of protecting the assets as well as >flexible enough so that the assets are well spent and effectively used. > > And we all know how easy it is to hide assets. I have a feeling (with no evidence to back it, just a gut reaction) that a number of lodges are doing that right now. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 97 11:25:36 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Ti-l Message-ID: <199702131625.LAA26477@leo.vsla.edu> In reply to Alan's and Christine's questions. CK had said that TI-L might become a place for brainstorming about ways to work for Theosophy outside existing organizational frameworks. That's why I asked; I wanted to subscribe. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:22:57 -0500 (EST) From: Lmhem111@aol.com Subject: Javaphobia Message-ID: <970213132255_1347800984@emout16.mail.aol.com> Some of the aversion that some older theosophists may have for Java could possibly be based on the following description given by C. W. Leadbeater in his The Occult History of Java. These excerpts are from pages 3 to 6. "The colonists from Atlantis in the very early days had brought with them (to Java) the dark and evil religion of their country, and as time rolled on, its hold upon the people became stronger and more pernicious. It was based entirely on fear, as are all the gloomy faiths; they worshiped cruel and abominable deities, who required constant propitiation by human sacrifice, and they lived ever under the shadow of a ghastly tyranny from which no escape was possible. "They were ruled at the time by a dynasty of chiefs or kings...among these priests-kings we find one who was specially earnest and fanatical in his awful faith. He really thought that only by the perpetuation of his appalling scheme of daily blood sacrifices could his country be saved from utter destruction at the hands of spiteful and bloodthirsty deities....he was under the direct inspiration of the Darker Powers. "He was a man of great power and inflexible determination, and having worked out his terrible plan of sacrifice, he resolved to ensure as far as he could that it should be continued throughout the ages yet to come. To that end he worked a most elaborate system of magic, throwing by a tremendous and long-continued effort of will a kind of spell upon the Island - laying it under a curse...the result of his action may still be seen etherically and astrally, in the shape of a vast dark cloud hovering low over the Island. And this malign cloud has the curious appearance of being ‘pegged down' at certain definite spots, so that it may not drift away. "These spots were specially magnetized by him for that purpose; they are nearly coincident with the craters of various volcanos...these outlets are usually inhabited by a peculiar type of nature-spirits of marvelous tenacity, looking like animated bronze images - a type which is specially susceptible to the kind of influence which he was using, and capable of retain and reinforcing it for an indefinite period.... the Darker Powers took care to give his scheme such support as they could; and thus it comes that this cloud is still in evidence even in the present day....". From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:25:22 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: digest 904 Message-ID: <9702132125.AA14687@toto.csustan.edu> >>JHE >>The human side in both situations has to do with ego, power, >>greed and control. It is that simple--and that complicated. >> CK >Not really. I was being a little more specific. I didn't >realise I would know more about the Shantara group that you >people. They are a small group here in Australia who originally >came from Denmark and whose name has been linked with the >political problems both there and in Canada by INUENDO only. >I want to know if there is any fact in this. They are a very >small group here who do not seem to be the remotest bit >interested in our Lodge, so there is every chance that they are >no more than an imaginary bogeyman being used to keep the >children frightened. > >The bogey man seems to take the form of any person who wants to >change things being part of a takeover conspiracy by some other >group (Masons, Co-masons and LCC aside of course). > >I wouldn't mind proving the falsity of that bogeyman, by being >able to circulate the facts. > >Christine JHE Please excuse my curt answer. I have been a member of the TS for almost 35 years and have seen the TS hierarchy do things again and again over the years that still give me nightmares. But to be fair, I was not addressing the Shantara issue, but answering your question in more general terms, as a ten word summary of 35 years experience with this organization. Regarding the Shantara question, I can say that I have been in correspondence with people who were involved in the Danish and Canadian Section expulsions and Shantara was never an issue. I would say that your suspicion of a bogeyman is right on. The same thing was done with the Yugoslavian Section expulsion in 1984. In that case, the accusations concerned the infiltration of the New Acropolis Organization. That was not true either. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:30:34 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: It's the worst! Message-ID: <199702132130.NAA00411@proxy1.ba.best.com> > Subject: (fwd) The worst ... (so far) > Date: Friday, February 07, 1997 9:57 AM THE WORST HIJACKING We shall never know the identity of the man who in 1976 made the most unsuccessful hijack attempt ever. On a flight across America, he rose from his seat, drew a gun and took the stewardess hostage. "Take me to Detroit," he demanded. "We're already going to Detroit," she replied. "Oh... good," he said, and sat down again. THE WORST BANK ROBBERY In August 1975 three men were on their way in to rob the Royal Bank of Scotland at Rothesay, when they got stuck in the revolving doors. They had to be helped free by the staff and, after thanking everyone, sheepishly left the building. A few minutes later they returned and announced their intention of robbing the bank, but none of the staff believed them. When they demanded 5,000 pounds in cash, the head cashier laughed at them, convinced that it was a practical joke. Then one of the men jumped over the counter, but fell to the floor clutching his ankle. The other two tried to make their getaway, but got trapped in the revolving doors again. THE WORST HOMING PIGEON This historic bird was released in Pembrokeshire in June 1953 and was expected to reach its base that evening. It was returned by post, dead, in a cardboard box eleven years later from Brazil. THE WORST ANIMAL RESCUE During the firemen's strike of 1978, the British Army had taken over emergency fire fighting and on 14 January they were called out by an elderly lady in South London to retrieve her cat which had become trapped up a tree. They arrived with impressive haste and soon discharged their duty. So grateful was the lady that she invited them all in for tea. Driving off later, with fond farewells completed, they ran over the cat and killed it. - Items from the British "Book of Heroic Failures" by Stephen Pile ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:39:54 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Talking Parrots! Message-ID: <199702132139.NAA22193@proxy1.ba.best.com> *Note: Chippendales are male exotic dancers. Sister Lydia approaches Mother Superior and tells her, "Mother, I have a problem. I just purchased these two talking male parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say," the stern Mother inquired. "They only know how to say, 'Hi, we're the Chippendales. Do you want to have some fun?' " "That's terrible!" the proper Mother exclaimed, "but I have a solution to your problem. Bring your two talking male parrots over to my abode and I will put them with my two female talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the bible. My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and your male parrots will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the good Sister responded. So the next day, the Sister brings her male parrots to the Mother's abode. The Mother's two female parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage. The Sister puts her male parrots in with the female parrots and the male parrots say, "Hi, we're the Chippendales. Do you want to have some fun?" One female parrot looks over at the other female parrot and exclaims, "Put the bibles away. Our prayers have been answered! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:24:22 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Seven Virgins Message-ID: <9702132124.AA14604@toto.csustan.edu> MKR >We all know he who pays the piper calls the tune. I do not know >how much of the funding, if any, came from TSA. May be it is >time to look for funding elsewhere. If you do not expect any >money or other non monetary support or favor from any one or any >organization, then there is nothing it/they can do. They can be >unhappy etc. It is their problem. JHE A word of clarification here. The *Theosophical History* journal did not, and does not receive funding from any Theosophical Organization, nor is it dependent upon funding from outside sources. MKR >Also it would be interesting to see Algeo's letter and Tillett's >response. What is it that Algeo did not like in Tillett's papers >and some others. Is he responding in his private capacity or >speaking for TSA? Is it the new facts dug up by Tillet and >others or their interpretations or conclusions? If Grace Knoche >got too much attention, so what. Did Algeo want all attention >for himself? JHE Algeo's letter specified that it was not for publication. Since it was written by him as the President of the TS, it may very well be a public document. On the other hand, I think Algeo's wishes should be respected here. I will say that Paul Johnson's summary of the letter was in my opinion, a fair one. Whether or not the tone should be described as "obnoxious" is another question, but I would agree that the tone was hardly pleasant. As for Doss's questions: MKR >What is it that Algeo did not like in Tillett's papers and some >others. JHE He did not like Tillett's presentation of information concerning CWL's group masturbation rituals with the young boys. He also did not like the fact that I did a summary and led a discussion on another person's paper who could not be present. The paper argued that after HPB was forced to leave Adyar, she founded the British Section to be run on different lines than those established by Olcott. Though the paper had a lot of weaknesses, we felt that the arguments were very close to the mark in many ways and would be a good springboard for discussion. Algeo objected to the whole procedure. MKR >Is he responding in his private capacity or speaking for TSA? JHE I took his responses to the presentations to be his own opinions. MKR >Is it the new facts dug up by Tillet and others or their >interpretations or conclusions? JHE In Tillett's case, his presentation of CWL's group masturbation ritual was based upon entries in Oscar Kollestrom's personal diary. In the case of the paper I summarized, the documentation was based upon previously published documents. MKR >If Grace Knoche got too much attention, so what. JHE Since the conference was held on the old Point Loma grounds, and Grace grew up and worked there, she was given the opportunity to talk about her past memories. This was done during the dinner, and was not part of the regular program. As far as I know, Algeo was the only person who did not enjoy it. If the conference had been held at Wheaton or at Krotona, the same kind of thing would have been done for the old timers of the Adyar Society. MKR Did Algeo want all attention for himself? JHE You'll have to ask Algeo. MKR >Let me add a few further comments. > >For those of you who are newbees, Gregory Tillett is the author >of a Biography of C W Leadbeater titled "The Elder Brother" >published by Routledge & Kegan Paul in 1982. ISBN 0-7100-0926-7. JHE I have copies of this book for sale. $14.00 ea. MKR >It appears to be a very well researched and documented book. Has >anyone seen any reviews or responses questioning or pointing out >in accuracies in the book? At least I have not. If anyone has >any info, please post. JHE One can find inaccuracies in any book if you look hard enough. The main point here is that Tillett's presentation of CWL is well documented and IMO fairly balanced. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:36:09 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 907 Message-ID: <199702132336.KAA03925@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> Paul wrote > >In reply to Alan's and Christine's questions. CK had said that >TI-L might become a place for brainstorming about ways to work >for Theosophy outside existing organizational frameworks. >That's why I asked; I wanted to subscribe. Great, that's what I was hoping. What about anyone else who is interested in a "brainstorm" going onto the TI-L list? In a few days we could post a question for discussion such as.... In what ways can we work for Theosophy outside existing organizational frameworks? ..or some such question. (for me I would want to know what you guys mean by Theosophy before I could even start with this question) For those who have not used this technique, brainstorming can encourage a great deal of lateral thinking and, as a result, creative solutions which no single individual could have reached alone (the whole is greter than the sum of the parts). The idea is that ideas can be expressed, cross polinated with other's ideas and new ideas formed as a result of the group dynamic. Ideas can be as crazy as you like and may be expanded on by others, but not criticzed. The normal brainstorming steps are 1. Gather ideas 2. Clarify and Categorize 3. Eliminate duplicates 4. Prioritize - select the top 3 to 5 in each category 5. Develop action plans for the top 3 to 5. 6. Propose action 7. Loop back to 5 for the next 3 to 5. We will have to creatively adapt this to suit the InterNet rather than a room in which we are face to face. For instance we would have to set a time limit for the "gather ideas" phase but may need to vary it to accommodate the speed at which people can respond, read each others ideas, come up with new ones etc. This will be much slower on this forum than face to face. The rules are simple > #1 - Keep it brief. One or two sentences is best. We elaborate later. > #2 - No discussion or criticism. (extension of ideas is allowed) How about it? Christine >JHE wrote >Please excuse my curt answer. I have been a member of the TS for >almost 35 years and have seen the TS hierarchy do things again >and again over the years that still give me nightmares. But to >be fair, I was not addressing the Shantara issue, but answering >your question in more general terms, as a ten word summary of 35 >years experience with this organization. Regarding the Shantara >question, I can say that I have been in correspondence with >people who were involved in the Danish and Canadian Section >expulsions and Shantara was never an issue. I would say that >your suspicion of a bogeyman is right on. The same thing was >done with the Yugoslavian Section expulsion in 1984. In that >case, the accusations concerned the infiltration of the New >Acropolis Organization. That was not true either. Thanks for this. I also did agree with your curt summary - just wanted more detail if I could get it, as we are in the middle of a "bogeyman" fear right now. To all of you on this list, I thankyou for the input. This list has confirmed what I already knew, and I have made a decision for myself that I will cut the umbilical to the TS. I see it now as a black spot in my aura against which I constantly have to battle. Better to cut it off. However, I intend to feed whatever information comes from this list to someone else in my Lodge who has been following up on all the legal aspects of our local problems. So I will continue to press for those when the opportunity arises. Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:34:14 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 896 Message-ID: In message <970212205603_105435278@emout03.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >>"Flounder at Large" >> >> >I think you're fishing with that one. g r o a n AB --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 97 19:13:36 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Obnoxious Message-ID: <199702140013.TAA28016@leo.vsla.edu> Actually, I used the word to refer to Tillett's paper as perceived by Algeo. But if the shoe fits... ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:59:34 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Javaphobia Message-ID: <970213195932_-2077373662@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-13 13:34:02 EST, you write: > >"They were ruled at the time by a dynasty of chiefs or kings...among these >priests-kings we find one who was specially earnest and fanatical in his >awful faith. He really thought that only by the perpetuation of his appalling >scheme of daily blood sacrifices could his country be saved from utter >destruction at the hands of spiteful and bloodthirsty deities....he was under >the direct inspiration of the Darker Powers. > >"He was a man of great power and inflexible determination, and having worked >out his terrible plan of sacrifice, he resolved to ensure as far as he could >that it should be continued throughout the ages yet to come. To that end he >worked a most elaborate system of magic, throwing by a tremendous and >long-continued effort of will a kind of spell upon the Island - laying it >under a curse...the result of his action may still be seen etherically and >astrally, in the shape of a vast dark cloud hovering low over the Island. And >this malign cloud has the curious appearance of being ‘pegged down' at >certain definite spots, so that it may not drift away. > >"These spots were specially magnetized by him for that purpose; they are >nearly coincident with the craters of various volcanos...these outlets are >usually inhabited by a peculiar type of nature-spirits of marvelous tenacity, >looking like animated bronze images - a type which is specially susceptible >to the kind of influence which he was using, and capable of retain and >reinforcing it for an indefinite period.... the Darker Powers took care to >give his scheme such support as they could; and thus it comes that this cloud >is still in evidence even in the present day....". How could I forget. THAT ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:01:14 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Javaphobia (let's do this right this time) Message-ID: <970213200113_-1106923228@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-13 13:34:02 EST, you write: > >"They were ruled at the time by a dynasty of chiefs or kings...among these >priests-kings we find one who was specially earnest and fanatical in his >awful faith. He really thought that only by the perpetuation of his appalling >scheme of daily blood sacrifices could his country be saved from utter >destruction at the hands of spiteful and bloodthirsty deities....he was under >the direct inspiration of the Darker Powers. > >"He was a man of great power and inflexible determination, and having worked >out his terrible plan of sacrifice, he resolved to ensure as far as he could >that it should be continued throughout the ages yet to come. To that end he >worked a most elaborate system of magic, throwing by a tremendous and >long-continued effort of will a kind of spell upon the Island - laying it >under a curse...the result of his action may still be seen etherically and >astrally, in the shape of a vast dark cloud hovering low over the Island. And >this malign cloud has the curious appearance of being ‘pegged down' at >certain definite spots, so that it may not drift away. > >"These spots were specially magnetized by him for that purpose; they are >nearly coincident with the craters of various volcanos...these outlets are >usually inhabited by a peculiar type of nature-spirits of marvelous tenacity, >looking like animated bronze images - a type which is specially susceptible >to the kind of influence which he was using, and capable of retain and >reinforcing it for an indefinite period.... the Darker Powers took care to >give his scheme such support as they could; and thus it comes that this cloud >is still in evidence even in the present day....". How could I forget! THAT was a fun incarnation. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:39:25 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: The future of the TS Message-ID: In message <01BC1954.59225220@rvik-ppp-118.ismennt.is>, Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB writes >Einar Here. > >In all this debate on the TS and TSA, I think we have to recognize the fact >that "The Theosophical Society, Adyar" is an international body, having its >sections >and branches throughout the world. When you join the TS, you really join TS >Adyar, >an international society. You can then choose to be a member of a certain >Branch, >within a section (the "default" choice), or you can be a member at large, of a >Section, >or you can be (under certain conditions, I believe) attached directlyto the >headquarters >in Adyar without belonging to any section or branch at all. This is basically correct. The full 1906 rules (articles of incorporation) of the Adyar TS can be found by browsing the website below. Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:35:28 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Network Structure Message-ID: <199702140119.UAA26896@cliff.cris.com> > From: Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB > > There has been some discussion among members in some sections, whether there > should be some other, more modern, or more up to date structure of government within > the Society. The former GS of the English Section wrote an interesting article of a > "network structure" that would have no hierarchy of power, but to be built up as groups > of services interacting and cooperating freely out of some necessity, without any > authority. What you're describing is the future for all organizations because it the structure of the Aquarian Age. The former GS must be aware of this and has presented a prototype for people to think about. An idea to be planted in their consciousness, which will surely grow. My husband attended some seminars in which the network structure was discussed. The leader said that what is happening in a lot of American businesses is that management is aware of this type of structure and realizes that many employees would like to see this as a reality at their companies. The problem is that managment is paying lip service to the idea, in that they are talking about the structure, but still acting and working in the same heirarchal way. He thought it would take a while for everyone to finally be assimilated into this system. I'm sure those in power are not willing to let go of their power easily. >He used the Internet as a model. > Its an interesting Idea, but I'm afraid that it's still an Utopia, and will be for some > time to come. I believe its implementation depends on the consciousness and willingness to change, in any organization. There are companies, manned by younger and more advanced people, who are already using this structure. For those who are used to the older model, it may take some time to change over. It really depends on the awareness level of those in charge. I'm sure it does sound Utopian, but I imagine there will be a lot wrinkles to ironed out along the way. :-) -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:09:27 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: The Web Page from Hell Message-ID: <199702140119.UAA26911@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > And six months or so from now when the psionic death ray is fully operational > things will really get interesting. > > And don't forget to visit the bestest most perfect web page in the whole > world > http://www.amargiland.com/charles-cosimano > Whoosh! Where's a fire extinguisher when you reallly need one? My monitor is too hot to touch! The only question I have is how does the fiery presentation relate to the products you're selling? If I use one of you psionic appliances, does that mean I could self-combust? -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:13:19 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Nasty Patriarchs Message-ID: <199702140119.UAA26946@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: C Kent > > How is this group faring now? This is normal bogey man stuff, but is it > possible that this group was actually facing up to the changes which have to > be made if the TS is to survive into next centruy. This is a genuine > question - I dislike the egotistical guru like leadership myself, which is > why I hate to see it infiltrating the TS in the guise of Blavtskyism, > Sinnettism, or Leadbeaterism (particularly the latter two who I see as > thoroughly nasty patriarchs of the worst kind). > As for the last two, they are also from another time and age, in which society and culture were very different than it is today. They are also quite dead, so that anyone resurrecting them as leaders would simply be using their rotting teeth as mouthpieces for their own ideas. These personalities have served their time, in their time, and the souls that created them have gone on to sketch out new personalities. Who knows that somehow the lingering memories of CWL are not alive in the back brain of of Howard Stern? (For those outside of the US, he's a shock radio personality of some infamy.) -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:22:42 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Fish Dinner Message-ID: <199702140119.UAA26963@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > Ann, > > >Ah, yes, The one that someone slipped into Olcott's > rental video collection. What's the title now? "Early Founders"? > "Floundering Early"? "The Early Flounder"? "My Date with > a Founder"? "A Flounder tells All"? "The Naked Flounder"? > > I think it was "Flounders in Bondage." > Wasn't that the one shot in a fish bowl? -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:43:19 GMT From: mdmgyn@worldnet.att.net (Tom Robertson) Subject: Re: Obnoxious Message-ID: <3390be74.209998597@mailhost.worldnet.att.net> K. Paul Johnson wrote: >Actually, I used the word to refer to Tillett's paper as >perceived by Algeo. But if the shoe fits... That's why I second Doss's request for the letter to be published. Perception of the attitude with which a letter is written is highly subjective, and it is hard to tell, without reading it, whether there was a legitimate reason for John to object to its contents or not. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:40:20 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: digest 907 Message-ID: <9702140340.AA32765@toto.csustan.edu> CK >To all of you on this list, I thankyou for the input. This list >has confirmed what I already knew, and I have made a decision >for myself that I will cut the umbilical to the TS. I see it >now as a black spot in my aura against which I constantly have >to battle. Better to cut it off. However, I intend to feed >whatever information comes from this list to someone else in my >Lodge who has been following up on all the legal aspects of our >local problems. So I will continue to press for those when the >opportunity arises. JHE On the other hand, members leaving the TS once they figure out that something is rotten in Denmark (double entendre intended) is a big reason why the TS never changes. There are never enough members left at any one time who know enough about what is going on who can raise a meaningful opposition. When I began to sense that the tide was moving against me, I became a life member. I have little hope anymore, but I still have a vague dream that the members who figure out the game will dig into the front lines instead of resigning. If enough of us stay around, things will have to change. CK >In what ways can we work for Theosophy outside existing >organizational frameworks? JHE Great question. We have been doing it for years now. Here is for starters, some fodder for the brainstorm: 1. form a network of fellow workers around the world. The internet is great for this, and TI would be ideal. 2. Share resources, ideas, accounts of successes and failures. In other words--support each other. There was a comment I remember seeing in the Mahatma letters saying that the failure of the London Lodge would be the result of the selfishness of the members. 3. Make your group more than a place of study. Make it also a resource for service to humanity. Theosophy in the end is pure altruism. I think this has been forgotten by the organizations. CK >..or some such question. (for me I would want to know what you >guys mean by Theosophy before I could even start with this >question) Theosophy (capital "T") to me is the study of the ideas promulgated by the Theosophical Society found in 1875; ideas promulgated by the schisms; and ideas promulgated by organizations inspired by the original Organizations. Small "t" theosophy, on the other hand, is the study of those ideas believed to be derived from intercourse with God, the gods, or angels. This includes but is not limited to the study of kabalah, hermetic philosophy, alchemy, Boehmenism and Swedenbourgianism. My personal interests embrace all of these areas and more. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:44:03 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Seven Virgins Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214034403.006a93a0@mail.eden.com> At 04:54 PM 2/13/97 -0500, Jerry wrote: >MKR >>Also it would be interesting to see Algeo's letter and Tillett's >>response. What is it that Algeo did not like in Tillett's papers >>and some others. Is he responding in his private capacity or >>speaking for TSA? Is it the new facts dug up by Tillet and >>others or their interpretations or conclusions? If Grace Knoche >>got too much attention, so what. Did Algeo want all attention >>for himself? > >JHE >Algeo's letter specified that it was not for publication. Since >it was written by him as the President of the TS, it may very >well be a public document. On the other hand, I think Algeo's >wishes should be respected here. > MKR In a situation some time ago, when there was an e-mail correspondence from an individualm (not from theos@netcom.com), I felt that the communication was indeed an official one as it came from an official address. When I requested the individual that I would like to post it here, I was told that the writer did not want it to be posted. Then I put the writer on notice that in future if any e-mail comes from an official e-mail address, I reserve the right to post it here since when it comes from an official address and dealt with official matters. As I see it, when the msg originates from an official e-mail address, there is no reason for secrecy in most cases. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:01:50 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: digest 907 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214040150.00bb45b8@mail.eden.com> At 10:34 PM 2/13/97 -0500, Jerry wrote: > >CK >>To all of you on this list, I thankyou for the input. This list >>has confirmed what I already knew, and I have made a decision >>for myself that I will cut the umbilical to the TS. I see it >>now as a black spot in my aura against which I constantly have >>to battle. Better to cut it off. However, I intend to feed >>whatever information comes from this list to someone else in my >>Lodge who has been following up on all the legal aspects of our >>local problems. So I will continue to press for those when the >>opportunity arises. > >JHE >On the other hand, members leaving the TS once they figure out >that something is rotten in Denmark (double entendre intended) is >a big reason why the TS never changes. There are never enough >members left at any one time who know enough about what is going >on who can raise a meaningful opposition. When I began to sense >that the tide was moving against me, I became a life member. I >have little hope anymore, but I still have a vague dream that the >members who figure out the game will dig into the front lines >instead of resigning. If enough of us stay around, things will >have to change. > MKR: I am of the same opinion as you do. I think CK should stay on. By staying on, we will make a difference. Who knows what just a few determined and dedicated members can achieve? Great things have happened not because of masses, but due to a few individuals. When you stand for what you think is right and when you do not have a personal axe to grind, just one person can make all the difference. Christine, think about it. MK Ramadoss ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:18:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Access Charge for Internet Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214041836.006f3e44@mail.eden.com> Here is something that all of us in the USA should be concerned with. Please send a e-mail to FCC per instructions below. MKR > >this is what my isp just sent me; 10 cents a minute to me is highway >robbery for the bells for internet service especially when there are many >companies ready willing and able to provide the service right now but they >are having trouble getting in because of the bell monopolization (ie buying >each other out) and as a second one the fcc makes you do it just exactly >so or they delete it. must have "cc docket no. 96-263" thanks for >listening to this dc > >Dear FlashNet customer, > >We are writing you this to inform you of a very important matter >currently under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has >filed a proposal with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your >internet service. They contend that your usage has or will hinder >the operation of the telephone network. > >It is our belief that internet usage will diminish if users were required >to pay additional per minute charges. The FCC has created an email box for >your comments; responses must be received by February 13, 1997. Send >your comments to isp@fcc.gov and tell them what you think. > >Alert everyone in your addressbook, and most importantly the subject >line should have "CC Docket No 96-263". FULL NAME AND ADDRESS SHOULD >ACCOMPANY THE EMAIL otherwise it will be deleted. Again, the email to FCC >is >isp@fcc.gov > >More information can be found at the FCC website: > http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html > >Please forward this email to all your friends on the internet so all our >voices may be heard. > >Thanks for your time. > >****************************************** >M. Scott Leslie >President - FlashNet Communications >a division of WebSite Management Co., Inc. >****************************************** > >---------- >> From: Joe Just >> Subject: Re: Motherboard >> Date: Thursday, February 13, 1997 12:36 PM >> >> CR, >> >> I was interested in your reply regarding the SiS and driver difficulties. >> Since I am not a techie, could you explain a little more what you mean. >> Win95 drivers for an intel chipset or a SiS chipset, or other chipsets, >> would be different? And when you say drivers will be there but you'll be >> hunting, what did you mean? Driver will be where? Hunting where? >> >> Thanks >> >> Joe >> >> At 11:14 PM 2/12/97 -0600, you wrote: >> >At 10:18 PM 2/12/97 -0600, you wrote: >> >>I'm getting ready to put together a system. >> >>Actually someone supposedly sold me a 6x86 based system and it did >nothing >> >>but lock up every 20 minutes. (I'm not exaggerating) >> >>It would appear that this is happening because the guy used any'ol >generic >> >>MOB and slapped a Cyrix in there. >> >>Wrong. >> >>So I'm a little sensitive about getting the right board. >> >>Tom's Hardware page touts the Asus P/I-P55TVP4 or the P/I-P55T2P4. >> >>But I notice that alot of you are refering to the M Tech Mustang R534. >> >>Am I missing something? >> > >> >Ok, I'll chip in. I've heard people tout the P55TVP4. I've tried it, >and >> >have gotten pretty good performance. But benchmark wise, I find very >> >little difference between it and boards like the Shuttle 557. The >chipset >> >(VX) seems to be a fair equalizer. As far as compatibility, I really >like >> >ASUS, used to use them a hell of a lot more then I do now, but they >weren't >> >the "perfect" board either. >> > >> >Now, the MTech is a different story. Also not the perfect board. But >it >> >uses the SIS chipset which means it's cyrix dead on certified for 200+ >> >(75Mhz*2) which the VX chipset is not certified to do (because Intel >> >doesn't have a chip that runs at 75Mhz bus, so why design a chipset to >do >> >that?) Because SIS is different, it has pluses and minuses. Plus: >you're >> >running OSR2, you get dead on support and you can grow from '95's >> >understanding. Minus: you're running '95 upgrade and get a SIS board. >> >Start getting ready for driver war. Drivers are there, but you'll be >> >hunting. >> > >> >The MTech board has a lot of big bonuses, but some distrations too. >Bottom >> >line: no board is absolutely perfect, everything has good or bad. I >> >generally work this way: If I know I'm designing for someone who wants a >> >P200+ and is a techie (they understand technology) I'll send out a >Mtech. >> >If, however, I know I'm dealing with an idiot who wants to just leave >the >> >case shut forever, never touch a damn thing, forget about everything, >> >they'll stick with what drivers they have for the rest of their life, >then >> >I'll choose a good HX/VX board. >> > >> >It's all in the picking. >> > >> >CR >> > > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:48:05 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Access Charge Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214044805.0067aaac@mail.eden.com> Here is some info I picked up from Denver Newspaper. Opposition to additional Internet phone charges floods in 02/13 By Lisa Greim Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer A proposal that would require Internet service providers to bear more of telephone companies' costs for local access is garnering attention. In a preliminary ruling in December, the Federal Communications Commission rejected the idea of charging Internet providers extra to use the voice network. But the commission asked for public comments before making a final judgment. Now, electronic mailboxes, message boards and Usenet news groups are filling with urgent appeals, claiming responses to the idea must be sent to the FCC by Friday. "Don't let the greedy telcos affect your Internet access! Please forward this message to everyone you know so our voices may be heard!'' said one version. The e-mail alerts have picked up steam in the last few weeks. A Rocky Mountain News reporter received three in one day this week. Although they stem from the rule-making process, some of the information they contain is incorrect. Comments on a broad proposal about access charges are due Friday, but the FCC will accept comments on the Internet portion until March 24, and "reply comments'' until April 23. The commission will meet in late spring to consider the issue and make a final ruling. US West and other phone providers told the FCC that the Internet's 30 million users add traffic that tie up the phone network for voice calls. Pacific Bell reported that a surge in Internet use on one evening forced a switch to block 16% of attempted phone calls. Inexpensive flat rates encourage users to park on the Net for hours at a time, telephone companies say. The phone network was built to support voice calls, which average about six minutes. Submissions trickled in until early February, when the news about the proposal began to circulate widely on the Net. In one week, the total went from 613 messages to more than 80,000, said Jodie Buenning at the FCC. Mail continues to pour in at a rate of 30 messages a minute -- the largest public response in the FCC's history. "We are overwhelmed,'' Buenning said. But every message will be added to the case record, read and considered by the commission, she said. "This is a public process.'' Scripps Howard News Service contributed to this report. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:31:02 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: An Interesting Letter from ML to APS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214063102.0068a1c8@mail.eden.com> Here is an interesting letter from the Appendix of ML to APS. What makes it very interesting is that it explains that while they can find 100s of thousands of people who are leading most "pure" life, none of them have heard about or heard from the Adepts because they are on the path of error. This is in response to complaints from TS members who say they are tee totalers, vegetarians, and abstainers from vice. Something to think about and meditate on, and reconsider our own "beliefs" especially in the light of the *traditional* *Theosophical* approach. Another striking statement relates to the difficulty that prevents Them from dealing with people who have erroneous and sincere beliefs. ================================================= ML to APS - Letter No 134; TPH 3rd Edn 1962 pp. 454 Debra Dun. Friday. 4th. Arrived only yesterday, last night late from Saharanpur. The house very good but cold, damp and dreary. Received a whole heap of letters and answer yours first. Saw at last M. and showed him your last or rather Benemadhab's on which you have scratched a query. It is the latter Morya answers. I wrote this under his dictation and now copy it. ----------------- "I wrote to Sinnett my opinion on the Allahabad theosophists. (Not through me though ?) Adityaram B. wrote a foolish letter to Damodar and Benemadhab writes a foolish request to Mr. Sinnett. Because K.H. chose to correspond with two men who proved of the utmost importance and use to the Society, they all- whether wise or stupid, clever or dull, possibly useful or utterly useless-lay their claims to correspond with us directly-too. Tell him (you) that this must be stopped. For ages we never corresponded with anyone, nor do we mean to. What has Benemadhab or any other of the many claimants done to have a right to such a claim ? Nothing whatever. They join the Socicty, and though remaining as stubborn as ever in their old beliefs and superstitions, and having never given up caste or one single of their customs they, in- their selfish exclusiveness, expect to see and converse with us and have our help in all and everything. I will be pleased if Mr. Sinnett says, to everyone of those who may address him with similar pretensions, the following: " The ' Brothers ' desire me to inform one and all of you, natives, that unless a man is prepared to become a thorough theosophist i.e. to do as D. Mavalankar did, - give up entirely caste his old superstitions and show himself a true reformer (especially in the case of child marriage) he will remain simply a member of the Society with no hope whatever of ever hearing from us. The Society, acting in this directly in accordance with our orders, forces no one to become a theosophist of the IId. Section. It is left with himself and at his choice. It is useless for a member to argue ' I am one of a pure life, I am a teetotaller and an abstainer from meat and vice. All my aspirations are for good etc.' and he, at the same time, building by his acts and deeds an impassable barrier on the road between himself and us. What have we, the disciples of the true Arhats, of esoteric Buddhism and of Sang-gyas to do with the Shastras and Orthodox Brahmanism There are 100 of thousands Fakirs, Sannyasis and Sadhus leading the most pure lives, and yet being as they are, on the path of *error*, never having had an opportunity to meet, see or even hear of us. Their forefathers have driven away the followers of the only true philosophy upon earth from India and now it is not for the latter to come to them but for them to come to us if they want us. Which of them is ready to become a Buddhist, a Nastika as they call us? None. Those who have believed and followed us have had their reward. Mr. Sinnett and Hume are exceptions. Their beliefs are no barrier to us for they have *none*. They may have had influences around them, bad magnetic emanations the result of drink, Society and promiscuous physical associations (resulting even from shaking hands with impure men) but all this is physical and material impediments which with a little effort we could counteract and even clear away without much detriment to ourselves. Not so with the magnetism and invisible results proceeding from erroneous and sincere beliefs. Faith in the Gods and God, and other superstitions attracts millions of foreign influences, living entities and powerful agents around them, with which we would have to use more than ordinary exercise of power to drive them away. We do not choose to do SO. We do not find it either necessary or profitable to lose our time waging war on the unprogressed Planetaries who delight in personating gods and sometimes well known characters who have lived on earth. There are DhyanChohans and " Chohans of Darkness," not what they term devils but imperfect " Intelligences " who have never been born on this or any other earth or sphere, any more than the " Dhyan Chohans " have, and who will never belong to the " builders of the Universe," the pure Planetary Intelligences, who preside at every Marwantara while the Dark Chohans preside at the Pralayas. Explain this to Mr. Sinnett (I CAN'T)-tell him to read over what I said to them in the few things I have explained to Mr. Hume; and let him remember that as all in this universe is contrast (I cannot translate it better) so the light of the Dhyan Chohans and their pure intelligence is contrasted by the " Ma-Mo Chohans " - and their destructive intelligence. These are the gods the Hindus and Christians and Mahomedans and all others of bigoted religions and sects worship; and so long as their influence is upon their devotees we would no more think of associating with or counteracting them in their work than we do the Red-Caps on earth whose evil results we try to palliate but whose work we have no right to meddle with so long as they do not cross our path. (You will not understand this, I suppose. But think well over it and you will. M. means here, that they have no right or even power to go against the natural or that work which is prescribed to each class of beings or existing things by the law of nature. The Brothers, for instance could prolong life but they could not destroy death, not even for themselves. They can to a degree palliate evil and relieve suffering; they could not destroy evil. No more can the Dhyan Chohans impede the work of the Mamo Chohans, for their Law is darkness, ignorance, destruction etc., as that of the former is Light, knowledge and creation. The Dhyan Chohans answer to Buddh, Divine Wisdom and Life in blissful knowledge, and the Ma-mos are the personification in nature of Shiva, Jehovah and other invented monsters with ignorance at their tail). The last phrase of Ml's I translate is thus. " Tell him (you) then that for the sake of those who desire to learn and have information, I am ready to answer the 2 or 3 enquiries of Benemadhab from the Shastras, but I will enter in no correspondence with him or any other. Let him put their questions clearly and distinctly to (you) Mr. Sinnett, and then I will answer through him (you)." ============== end of Master's letter-- I send you my uncle's letter just received by me. He says (as my translation of his Russian letter shows) that he wrote to you the same. Whether you received it or not, I know not, but I send you this. If it is identical with yours then send me back mine. I suppose that by this time it is pretty well proved that I am I-and not someone else; that my uncle being now adjunct (or asst.) Minister of the Interior, is a personage who by signing his name in full can certainly be trusted, unless, indeed, the C. and M. and your friend Primrose invent a new version and say that we have forged the documents. But my uncle says in his official letter to me that the Prince Dondoukoff is going to send me an official document to prove my identity, and so we will wait. His other private letter I cannot translate as its phraseology is far from complimentary for Mr. Primrose in particular, and the Anglo-Indians who insult and vilify me in general. I will ask the Prince to write to Lord Ripon, or Gladstone direct. Yours in the love of Jesus H. P. BLAVATSKY. Why the deuce does the " Boss " want me now to go to Allahabad ? I can't be spending money there and back for I have to go by Jeypur and Baroda and he knows it. What all this means is more than I can tell. He made me go to Lahore and now it's Allahalbad !! ======== end of letter ========== ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:39:59 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: TS Membership Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214063959.00688e60@mail.eden.com> In response to Christine's msg where she mentioned about quitting TS, Jerry referred to a ML letter regarding British TS where the problems were due to the selfishness of its members. I located the quote and I am posting it below: Two things that caught my attention. The first one is the Quietism. The second on the British TS and the result of the intensely selfish aspirations. Something to think about for everyone. Let us not resort to Quietism and let us see what we can do to really help. MKR ============== ML to APS - Letter 28; pp.208; TPH 3rd Edn. 1962: "And yet in the pestilent London atmosphere the " Club " came to an untimely end. I visited it about half a dozen of times, and perceived from the first that there was and could be nothing in it. And this is also the reason why the British T.S. does not progress one step practically. They are of the Universal Brotherhood but in name, and gravitate at best towards *Quietism*. that utter paralysis of the Soul. They are intensely selfish in their aspirations and will get but the reward of their selfishness." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:38:41 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Theos-L Digest 907 Message-ID: <199702140738.XAA16457@proxy2.ba.best.com> I like seeing that the wheels are moving regarding brainstorming. Since I have a natural aversion to politics, I've always acted in as a non-political and unconnected way as possible (Hey, don't laugh. The other stuff is just rantings from an individual anarchist maniac). Thus, I don't really have much ideas right now regarding the structuring of an organization, particularly anything based on a spiritual organization. Maybe in reading some more posts, some ideas will come to me. I can't imagine any spiritual organization wanting me as a member. If I see seven virgins dancing and people in flowing white robes, I'm going to laugh until the Cheerios come up through my nose. I saw information on this before, but can't remember the details. How do I get a list of people subscribing to these lists? Or do we just have a list of people who are members of TI? I'm curious as to the volume of subscribers to the lists at any one time. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:45:15 -0500 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Receiviing Mail Message-ID: <33045E5B.1CB@sprynet.com> I have not received any news in a few days. If Alan Bain receives this, can he send back a personal reply? Thanks. Bart Lidofsky From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:45:20 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Receiviing Mail Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214134520.00b94a1c@mail.eden.com> At 07:49 AM 2/14/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have not received any news in a few days. If Alan Bain receives this, >can he send back a personal reply? Thanks. > > Bart Lidofsky > Some times the list server for unknown reasons unsubscribes a subscriber. I just looked at the list of subscribers and you are on it. So that is not the problem. I do not know if there is some problem at your ISP. I am posting this msg at 7.45 am cdt. One of the things I would try would be to unsubscribe and subscribe again in that sequence and see if that fixes the problem. You can also catch up with the msgs by retrieving the messages stored by date. To get a list send a msg to listserv@vnet.net with index theos-l in the body of the msg. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:01:35 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss (by way of M K Ramadoss ) Subject: Re: Where to start? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970214140135.00bb74b4@mail.eden.com> At 07:50 AM 2/14/97 -0500, you wrote: >Christine had a potentially useful if rather daunting set of >questions, but I've already deleted the theos-l digest in which >they appeared. So perhaps she or someone else will repost them >here? > >I'll start off by describing where I stand with institutional >Theosophy and how TI might fit into the picture. As I've said >many times, all my experience with local (VA/NC/DC/MD) TSA >groups has been overwhelmingly positive. So seeing Wheaton and >Adyar in increasingly negative terms (and vice-versa!) over the >years has created cognitive dissonance. On one hand, how can I >abandon all these wonderful people doing good work in their >lodges? On the other, how can I continue to support an >organization that is controlled by a secret faction I consider >not just misguided but truly evil? My answer is to continue >unabated in working with Theosophists in the region, while >denying Wheaton/Adyar the support of my membership. > TS is what it is today, is not because of the bureaucrats who may enjoy having high sounding titles which impress no body but the gullible. It is because of the blood and sweat of the founders and 1000s of unknown unsophisticated ordinary members throughout the world. Last night I read a letter in which HPB had to sell her jewelry to support the TS at a time TS did not have a multi-million dollar Trust and Kern Trust to fund the activities. I had personally known of a number of members, most of them poor lower middle class who have toiled for the TS and Theosophy and given whatever little they can and expected nothing. But for the above, TS would have been history long ago. Having read and seen some of the above, and the enormous (non monetary) benefit I have received due to exposure to the simple fundamental Theosophical ideas, I am still hopeful that there is a lot of mileage left in TS and Theosophy is badly needed for the masses as I see it can bring about a very useful change in their lives and those whom they come into contact. That's why I continue to work to see how TS can be improved. At least I can say that I am not in it for *personal* *spiritual* growth or with the hope of sitting at the right hand of *God* at some time in the future. I am sharing the above thoughts because we need the help of each and everyone in this great project. MKR >The ULT and Pasadena organizations are non-starters in this part >of the world, as far as networking goes. In ten years of a Pasadena-affiliated >local group (of which I was the founder) we engendered lots of >interest in theosophy, but none in the TS for whatever reason. >While the Pasadena TS is not a force for evil like the >ES-dominated rulership of the Adyar society, it's not much >of a force for good either, except on those "inner planes" >Theosophists talk about when excusing their quietism on the >"outer." ULT I cannot speak to, knowing little of its current >activities. > >Adyar still has 90% of the membership of the movement, >probably, and retains vitality in its own weird way. Maybe >someday reform forces can triumph but that's true of the RC >Church too-- and in neither case does the victory of good over >evil forces appear plausible enough to justify pouring my >energy into the organization. > See my comment above. >I wonder whether Theosophy is worth saving in any >distinct organization, or whether it is best suited to be >studied as foundation material in later organizations that >focus on other things. I'm hoping to create some more interest >in the A.R.E. in HPB's writings, by showing the extent to which >the Cayce readings echo her. Any need I have for a group to >belong to which I feel is doing generally good work in the >field of esotericism is met by the A.R.E., so I don't "need" TI >to be some kind of organizational "home." Probably none of us >does. > >But there is still a gap, one which TI can fill, not just in my >experience but perhaps in that of others: providing a forum for >pursuing the (modified) three objects of the original TS >outside the ranks of existing institutions. And as it exists >largely in cyberspace, I'm wondering if the best way for TI to >get its message out might be activating this list or creating a >e-zine together. > >Just some rambling disjoined early morning thoughts. So are my rambling early morning thoughts. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:15:10 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: John Algeo's letter Message-ID: <9702142215.AA27475@toto.csustan.edu> >>MKR >>>Also it would be interesting to see Algeo's letter and >>>Tillett's response. What is it that Algeo did not like in >>>Tillett's papers and some others. Is he responding in his >>>private capacity or speaking for TSA? Is it the new facts dug >>>up by Tillet and others or their interpretations or >>>conclusions? If Grace Knoche got too much attention, so what. >>>Did Algeo want all attention for himself? > >>JHE >>Algeo's letter specified that it was not for publication. >>Since it was written by him as the President of the TS, it may >>very well be a public document. On the other hand, I think >>Algeo's wishes should be respected here. > >MKR > In a situation some time ago, when there was an e-mail >correspondence from an individualm (not from theos@netcom.com), >I felt that the communication was indeed an official one as it >came from an official address. When I requested the individual >that I would like to post it here, I was told that the writer >did not want it to be posted. Then I put the writer on notice >that in future if any e-mail comes from an official e-mail >address, I reserve the right to post it here since when it comes >from an official address and dealt with official matters. > >As I see it, when the msg originates from an official e-mail >address, there is no reason for secrecy in most cases. JHE When Paul Johnson reported on the Algeo letter in question, his action, perhaps inadvertently, raised some very interesting ethical issues. Personally, I'm glad that he did create such an opportunity for these issues to be raised, because I believe they are important for Theosophists to consider. The question Doss has raised here is whether or not Algeo's letter should be published on theos-l. Less important than the answer to this question, is the reasoning behind the decision one might come to. For instance, Doss' argument seems to be based upon legality-- whether or not a communication from an official source should be public. Another question he might have raised (though it doesn't apply to Algeo's letter) is whether a messages sent via e-mail, a non-private method of sending messages, should be private. Doss' reasoning seems very solid and is one way of looking at the issue. However, there are several other ways, some of which I would like to suggest below: Using Kolbergs scale of ethics, we can consider the issue from at least five different levels. Level 1: Beginning with the lowest level, Algeo's letter could be published for reasons of revenge, or as an expression of anger or rage. But I think most of us would consider this a poor reason. Besides, I don't know of anyone who is angry at Algeo for writing the letter. Level 2 concerns a payoff of some kind. As far as I know, no one has offered to pay or bribe anyone into publishing the letter. If it was published because of a bribe, I would guess that most people on this list would think badly of the situation. Level 3 concerns loyalty. To use myself as an example, I am a member of TSA and an associate of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY. Therefore, I might feel obligations of loyalty to these organizations not to publish the letter. Doss, on the other hand, is a member of TSA and may feel that the letter is outside of his bounds of obligation to it. Paul, on the other hand, is no longer a member of TSA, nor is he associated with THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, therefore, a conflict of loyalty might not be an issue at all with him. On the other hand, circumstances sometimes require that we break our bonds of loyalty. For instance, when there is a conflicting legal issue. Level 4 concerns the law. In my case, I would look to the J.D. Salinger litigation of about ten years ago. The courts determined that Salinger has legal ownership to all letters of any kind that were written by him, regardless of whom they were sent, or who is in possession of them. Therefore, I would have to operate under the belief that I do not have the legal right to publish someone's letters without their permission. Someone else may not be aware of that litigation, or may have an entirely different view of what it means. For instance, they might feel that this ruling would not apply to corporate letters written on the corporation letterhead. Therefore, they may feel no legal constraints whatsoever. On the other hand, the law is not the be all and end all either. Sometimes a greater good may be served by breaking the law. Level 5 concerns considerations of the greater good. Well, here we have room for all kinds of discussion. One might believe that publishing the letter would enlighten the theos-l audience as to the nature of TSA politics, and help to bring about some reforms. But one would also have to consider the possible consequences and damage that might come from such an act. IMO, a solution that would appear to satisfy all of the legal and ethical issues would be to get permission from Algeo himself to publish the letter. His reply, whether positive or negative, in itself might be instructive. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 17:11:45 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Takeover fears Message-ID: <199702142211.RAA19642@leo.vsla.edu> The Shantara paranoia Down Under reminds me of the time, about ten years ago, when Jean Overton Fuller argued in print that my paper on Sufism, Gurdjieff and HPB was a takeover effort. I was being used by Muslims who wanted to confuse Theosophists into thinking that Islamic rather than Buddhist sources were HPB's main inspiration. This, preliminary to an Islamic takeover of the TS. As I said to Jim Santucci at the time, what the hell does she think the Muslims want with the TS, and what are they gonna do with it when they take it over? Leslie Price explained this bizarre accusation on Miss Fuller's part by saying that she had witnessed real takeover efforts going on in H.I. Khan's Sufi Order in the West (I think) and had gotten paranoid on the subject. But since from things Miss Fuller has said in my presence I think she's a ES member, I have another theory about it that ties into the Shantara fantasy. A big, bad takeover *has* happened in the TS-Adyar: the ES has taken over the society. It happened long ago (exactly when could be argued) but now that the ES control is established, they're paranoid about losing it-- thinking someone else might do to them what they did to the TS. Of course, other takeovers *have* happened: the Holy Order of MANS by Eastern Orthodoxy, John G. Bennett's Coombe Springs by Idries Shah, for starters. But I think this takeover business on the part of certain ES loyalists is in fact based on the unconscious knowledge that *they* have usurped all power in the TS and subverted all its explicit objectives about democracy and freedom of thought. Equally unconsciously, they know that karma is gonna catch up with them for it one day, and thus are always looking over their shoulder for potential threats. That's my half-baked theory for the day. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:48:10 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Takeover fears Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970215004810.00bcf890@mail.eden.com> At 05:14 PM 2/14/97 -0500, you wrote: > >The Shantara paranoia Down Under reminds me of the time, about >ten years ago, when Jean Overton Fuller argued in print that my >paper on Sufism, Gurdjieff and HPB was a takeover effort. I >was being used by Muslims who wanted to confuse Theosophists >into thinking that Islamic rather than Buddhist sources were >HPB's main inspiration. This, preliminary to an Islamic >takeover of the TS. As I said to Jim Santucci at the time, >what the hell does she think the Muslims want with the TS, and >what are they gonna do with it when they take it over? > >Leslie Price explained this bizarre accusation on Miss >Fuller's part by saying that she had witnessed real takeover >efforts going on in H.I. Khan's Sufi Order in the West (I >think) and had gotten paranoid on the subject. But since from >things Miss Fuller has said in my presence I think she's a ES >member, I have another theory about it that ties into the >Shantara fantasy. > >A big, bad takeover *has* happened in the TS-Adyar: the ES has >taken over the society. It happened long ago (exactly when >could be argued) but now that the ES control is established, >they're paranoid about losing it-- thinking someone >else might do to them what they did to the TS. > >Of course, other takeovers *have* happened: the Holy Order of >MANS by Eastern Orthodoxy, John G. Bennett's Coombe Springs by >Idries Shah, for starters. But I think this takeover business >on the part of certain ES loyalists is in fact based on the >unconscious knowledge that *they* have usurped all power in the >TS and subverted all its explicit objectives about democracy >and freedom of thought. Equally unconsciously, they know that >karma is gonna catch up with them for it one day, and thus are always looking >over their shoulder for potential threats. > >That's my half-baked theory for the day. Much of what we have been discussing about ES control, at least in the USA, issue is likely to surface not in the normal arena of democratic forums. More likely it will come in the courts. Let me give a scenario that is very likely. It is just a scenario and is very likely, at least in my opinion. It is more likely than the Shantara takeover. Wheaton may cancel the charter of a lodge with substantial assets on some excuse and then try to take over the assets by using the bylaws. The bylaws will be challenged in the courts. While litigation goes on, there is likely to be political attention being paid by some congressman or senator who in turn asks IRS to investigate into the allegation that ES defacto controls a democratic tax exempt organization. This will lead to all the officers (including past ones) being put on oath and asked very many probing questions. In addition they will also dig into all paperwork. From then on it may pick up steam if it is determined that all shots are called by ES from India. This question of indirect control especially from overseas may become a very sensitive political issue. Where this will lead, who knows. With such a development, and the availability of Internet, the developments will be public knowledge on a daily basis. The old environment where info dispersion can be contained and censored will no more be true. Such dissemination of information will raise further questions in the minds of ordinary members who are not the sheep and not in party line. One thing is for sure. If this scenario plays out, there will be some very rich attorneys at the end of the litigation. The attorneys generally are very happy to represents organizations which has tons of money to litigate. TIT can and will come in handy. This is just a scenario. But is very likely. Any comments/additions. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:04:49 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: John Algeo's letter Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970215010449.006f7fbc@mail.eden.com> Thanks for your detailed response. Your idea of finding Algeo's response about publishing the letter is a very good one. May be it is worth a try. Again, there is another issue that seem to come up. When the President of TSA in his official capacity using TSA's resources writes about something which has a policy implication for TSA, why the secrecy. If the arguments contained in the letter are very reasonable and solid, then no one should have any problem in getting it published. All readers will agree and congratulate the writer for the letter. If on the other hand the arguments are not substantial, then the writer is not going to look good. Again, it is possible that in the long run, it may not matter one way or the other whether it is published or not. MKR At 05:13 PM 2/14/97 -0500, you wrote: > >>>MKR >>>>Also it would be interesting to see Algeo's letter and >>>>Tillett's response. What is it that Algeo did not like in >>>>Tillett's papers and some others. Is he responding in his >>>>private capacity or speaking for TSA? Is it the new facts dug >>>>up by Tillet and others or their interpretations or >>>>conclusions? If Grace Knoche got too much attention, so what. >>>>Did Algeo want all attention for himself? >> >>>JHE >>>Algeo's letter specified that it was not for publication. >>>Since it was written by him as the President of the TS, it may >>>very well be a public document. On the other hand, I think >>>Algeo's wishes should be respected here. >> > >>MKR >> In a situation some time ago, when there was an e-mail >>correspondence from an individualm (not from theos@netcom.com), >>I felt that the communication was indeed an official one as it >>came from an official address. When I requested the individual >>that I would like to post it here, I was told that the writer >>did not want it to be posted. Then I put the writer on notice >>that in future if any e-mail comes from an official e-mail >>address, I reserve the right to post it here since when it comes >>from an official address and dealt with official matters. >> >>As I see it, when the msg originates from an official e-mail >>address, there is no reason for secrecy in most cases. > >JHE >When Paul Johnson reported on the Algeo letter in question, his >action, perhaps inadvertently, raised some very interesting >ethical issues. Personally, I'm glad that he did create such an >opportunity for these issues to be raised, because I believe they >are important for Theosophists to consider. The question Doss >has raised here is whether or not Algeo's letter should be >published on theos-l. Less important than the answer to this >question, is the reasoning behind the decision one might come to. >For instance, Doss' argument seems to be based upon legality-- >whether or not a communication from an official source should be >public. Another question he might have raised (though it doesn't >apply to Algeo's letter) is whether a messages sent via e-mail, a >non-private method of sending messages, should be private. Doss' >reasoning seems very solid and is one way of looking at the >issue. However, there are several other ways, some of which I >would like to suggest below: > >Using Kolbergs scale of ethics, we can consider the issue from at >least five different levels. > >Level 1: Beginning with the lowest level, Algeo's letter could be >published for reasons of revenge, or as an expression of anger or >rage. But I think most of us would consider this a poor reason. >Besides, I don't know of anyone who is angry at Algeo for writing >the letter. > >Level 2 concerns a payoff of some kind. As far as I know, no one >has offered to pay or bribe anyone into publishing the letter. >If it was published because of a bribe, I would guess that most >people on this list would think badly of the situation. > >Level 3 concerns loyalty. To use myself as an example, I am a >member of TSA and an associate of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY. >Therefore, I might feel obligations of loyalty to these >organizations not to publish the letter. Doss, on the other >hand, is a member of TSA and may feel that the letter is outside >of his bounds of obligation to it. Paul, on the other hand, is >no longer a member of TSA, nor is he associated with THEOSOPHICAL >HISTORY, therefore, a conflict of loyalty might not be an issue >at all with him. On the other hand, circumstances sometimes >require that we break our bonds of loyalty. For instance, when >there is a conflicting legal issue. > >Level 4 concerns the law. In my case, I would look to the J.D. >Salinger litigation of about ten years ago. The courts >determined that Salinger has legal ownership to all letters of >any kind that were written by him, regardless of whom they were >sent, or who is in possession of them. Therefore, I would have >to operate under the belief that I do not have the legal right to >publish someone's letters without their permission. Someone else >may not be aware of that litigation, or may have an entirely >different view of what it means. For instance, they might feel >that this ruling would not apply to corporate letters written on >the corporation letterhead. Therefore, they may feel no legal >constraints whatsoever. On the other hand, the law is not the be >all and end all either. Sometimes a greater good may be served >by breaking the law. > >Level 5 concerns considerations of the greater good. Well, here >we have room for all kinds of discussion. One might believe that >publishing the letter would enlighten the theos-l audience as to >the nature of TSA politics, and help to bring about some reforms. >But one would also have to consider the possible consequences and >damage that might come from such an act. > >IMO, a solution that would appear to satisfy all of the legal and >ethical issues would be to get permission from Algeo himself to >publish the letter. His reply, whether positive or negative, in >itself might be instructive. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:40:15 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: TS History Message-ID: >A couple of articles by me are on a test site: > >http://home.earthlink.net/~buck001/bain2.htm > >http://home.earthlink.net/~buck001/bain3.htm > >A familiar name to some will be seen there also ... :-) > >The TI URL on this site is out of date. The one below is correct. > Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 00:57:28 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: TS Membership Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970214063959.00688e60@mail.eden.com>, ramadoss@eden.com writes >ML to APS - Letter 28; pp.208; TPH 3rd Edn. 1962: > >"And yet in the pestilent London atmosphere the " Club " >came to an untimely end. I visited it about half a dozen >of times, and perceived from the first that there was >and could be nothing in it. And this is also >the reason why the British T.S. does not progress >one step practically. They are of the Universal >Brotherhood but in name, and gravitate at best >towards *Quietism*. that utter paralysis of the Soul. >They are intensely selfish in their aspirations >and will get but the reward of their selfishness." > Nothing of worth appears to have changed. Note that the letter offers the opinion that "there was and could be nothing in it.* A sound prediction. Members continue to lapse faster than new ones can be found. I shall be one of them this very year - there is no longer any point in wasting my money or my time on the TS in England, members of whom, in the past year, have sought to defame my character, have acted illegally in respect of the Society's rules towards me, have ignored genuine news items sent to their journal (like the efforts of the TSA to reach out via the Internet) and at the same time have had the nerve to ask to to travel 320 miles to give a talk at London HQ for expenses only. Last time I did this from Bristol (only 120 miles) I was not even offered anything to eat. Some brotherhood. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:45:28 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Nasty Patriarchs Message-ID: <970214160032_950278615@emout07.mail.aol.com> Ann, In a message dated 97-02-13 20:24:13 EST, you write: > Who knows that somehow the >lingering memories of CWL are not alive in the back brain of >of Howard Stern? (For those outside of the US, he's a shock >radio personality of some infamy.) > >-AEB Nah! Howie ain't gay. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 21:22:32 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Fish Dinner Message-ID: <970214160145_-805199135@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-13 20:24:26 EST, you write: >Wasn't that the one shot in a fish bowl? > >-AEB > > It sure felt that way. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 21:34:26 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The Web Page from Hell Message-ID: <970214155828_-1475375780@emout01.mail.aol.com> Ann, In a message dated 97-02-13 20:23:56 EST, you write: >Whoosh! Where's a fire extinguisher when you reallly need one? > >My monitor is too hot to touch! > >The only question I have is how does the fiery presentation relate >to the products you're selling? If I use one of you psionic >appliances, does that mean I could self-combust? > >-AEB I think it's supposed to imply that I have a hellish image, but to my knowledge the only way you can self-combust with one of my devices is to accidentally aim it at yourself. "They'll be a hot time on the old web tonight." :) Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 21:42:24 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: An Interesting Letter from ML to APS Message-ID: <970214161122_916723056@emout01.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-14 01:37:23 EST, you write: > It is useless for a >member to argue ' I am one of a pure life, I am a teetotaller and an >abstainer from meat and vice. All my aspirations are for good etc.' Sorry, I'm not that good a liar. But it's nice to know the masters still like me even though I pick on them. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 02:44:21 -0000 From: Einar Adalsteinsson & ASB Subject: RE: THEOS-L digest 907 Message-ID: <01BC1AEA.27B6EBA0@rvik-ppp-216.ismennt.is> > From: C Kent[SMTP:cmkent@ozemail.com.au] > Sent: fimmtudagur 13. februar 1997 18:42 > Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 907 .... Great, that's what I was hoping. What about anyone else who is interested in a "brainstorm" going onto the TI-L list? In a few days we could post a question for discussion such as.... In what ways can we work for Theosophy outside existing organizational frameworks? .or some such question. (for me I would want to know what you guys mean by Theosophy before I could even start with this question) For those who have not used this technique, brainstorming can encourage a great deal of lateral thinking and, as a result, creative solutions which no single individual could have reached alone (the whole is greter than the sum of the parts). The idea is that ideas can be expressed, cross polinated with other's ideas and new ideas formed as a result of the group dynamic. Ideas can be as crazy as you like and may be expanded on by others, but not criticzed. The normal brainstorming steps are 1. Gather ideas 2. Clarify and Categorize 3. Eliminate duplicates 4. Prioritize - select the top 3 to 5 in each category 5. Develop action plans for the top 3 to 5. 6. Propose action 7. Loop back to 5 for the next 3 to 5. We will have to creatively adapt this to suit the InterNet rather than a room in which we are face to face. For instance we would have to set a time limit for the "gather ideas" phase but may need to vary it to accommodate the speed at which people can respond, read each others ideas, come up with new ones etc. This will be much slower on this forum than face to face. The rules are simple > #1 - Keep it brief. One or two sentences is best. We elaborate later. > #2 - No discussion or criticism. (extension of ideas is allowed) How about it? ... Christine Einar Here. Yes, How about it?! I have just subscribed to the TI-l list in the hope that we can all go sail brainstorming there. Here is an issue: How can we make theosophy PRACTICAL for the average spiritual seeker, and still maintain high quality spiritual standard of H.P.B's unique teachings? Let's start some positive brainstorming! Love and light. Einar. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:30:00 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: John Algeo's letter Message-ID: <199702151315.IAA12174@newman.concentric.net> > From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins > > Level 5 concerns considerations of the greater good. Well, here > we have room for all kinds of discussion. One might believe that > publishing the letter would enlighten the theos-l audience as to > the nature of TSA politics, and help to bring about some reforms. > But one would also have to consider the possible consequences and > damage that might come from such an act. > If the letter, or any piece of information, was published on on theos-l, there is the question of whether it was worth the effort. That is because there are a grand total of 128 people subscribed to theos-l, at the last count. And some of these may not be sympathetic to your cause. If your aim is exposing someone or revealing the truth, then these 128 or so people would have to pass it on to their friends, lodges and study groups, who would then take it up with others. That is, if they even are members of any or even belong to TS! You would have to form a network beyojnd the Internet to truly make a difference. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:49:44 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 905 Message-ID: <970215104752_916803458@emout13.mail.aol.com> Christine writes--> I was also wondering about the money. We are very wealthy, but I wonder if the bequests which set up our wealth were made to our local Lodge, Theosophy in Australia, or International Theosophy. Richard Ihle writes--> Christine's remarks reminded me of something I have always been curious about and which someone on the list may know the details of. I was speaking in Ann Arbor or Detroit or somewhere else in Michigan perhaps 20 years ago or more. As I recall it, the meeting place was a beautiful rustic-type building with attractive grounds. Someone told me that a prominent Theosophist had left it to the American Section in his will. Sometime later I inquired about the property and someone told me that the Board of Directors had simply decided to ~give it~ to the relatives of the deceased person. It seems a little strange that the Board would have the power to dispose of the Section's property with such ease; thus, I wonder if this really happened. Has anyone else heard of anything like this? Godspeed, Richard Ihle ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 12:47:04 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 905 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970215184704.006dd320@mail.eden.com> At 10:52 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >Christine writes--> >I was also wondering about the money. We are very wealthy, but I wonder if >the bequests which set up our wealth were made to our local Lodge, Theosophy >in Australia, or International Theosophy. > >Richard Ihle writes--> >Christine's remarks reminded me of something I have always been curious about >and which someone on the list may know the details of. > >I was speaking in Ann Arbor or Detroit or somewhere else in Michigan perhaps >20 years ago or more. As I recall it, the meeting place was a beautiful >rustic-type building with attractive grounds. Someone told me that a >prominent Theosophist had left it to the American Section in his will. > >Sometime later I inquired about the property and someone told me that the >Board of Directors had simply decided to ~give it~ to the relatives of the >deceased person. It seems a little strange that the Board would have the >power to dispose of the Section's property with such ease; thus, I wonder if >this really happened. > >Has anyone else heard of anything like this? > >Godspeed, > >Richard Ihle > Very interesting. By law, no non-profit/tax exempt corporation/organization can give anything of value to any individual especially valuable real estate. Both the non profit organization and the recipient would have tax trouble with IRS and also with state tax authorities. It is quite possible that if right kind of returns were not filed by both the organization and recipient, the issue may still open and IRS and State Tax authorities can assess taxes and penalties and interest and also other actions on the non profit organization. In addition the person who tips off IRS would get a small share of the taxes they collect. Any IRS agent lurking in this list? The only instance I had heard about was long time ago, someone donated some very valuable property and within a short time he came back and told Mrs. Besant that he has changed his mind. Besant returned the property. The elapsed time between the donation and the reversion was very short. There is also the possibility. When anyone donates anything of value, the recipient organization may decide not to accept the donation. Unless we know the full verifiable facts, we cannot determine exactly what happened. As a starting poing, someone can go to Ann Arbor or Michigan country court house and make a search and can track down the property records to see what exactly took place. Just my thoughts. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:50:21 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Takeover fears Message-ID: <970215145019_-1742934606@emout12.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-14 19:53:38 EST, you write: > there is >likely to be political attention being paid by some congressman or senator >who in turn asks IRS to investigate into the allegation that ES defacto >controls a democratic tax exempt organization. This will lead to all the >officers (including past ones) being put on oath and asked very many probing >questions. In addition they will also dig into all paperwork. If the TS is chartered as a religious or spiritual body, no politician will touch that with a ten foot pole. The first amendment lawyers will come in and make hash of any attempt at an investigation with every major and minor religious body in the US (especially the Roman Catholic Church) filing friend of the court briefs. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:53:57 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS Membership Message-ID: <970215145356_-905767499@emout10.mail.aol.com> Alan, In a message dated 97-02-14 20:20:04 EST, you write: >Last time I did this from Bristol (only 120 miles) I was not even >offered anything to eat. Some brotherhood. > > It could have been worse. The Milwaukee lodge was giving subscriptions to the Quest as an honorarium for speakers who weren't already TS members. I asked the lodge president if they ever came back. She was less than amused. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:43:48 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: digest 907 Message-ID: <970215154347_1348023254@emout17.mail.aol.com> Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes--> On the other hand, members leaving the TS once they figure out that something is rotten in Denmark (double entendre intended) is a big reason why the TS never changes. There are never enough members left at any one time who know enough about what is going on who can raise a meaningful opposition. Richard Ihle writes--> I agree with this 100% Furthermore, perhaps even a clear majority would have a difficult time raising objections to anything, at least in the Americn Section. For one thing, there is the "secret membership list" strategy which prevents any unapproved informational mailings to all members. For another thing, there is the "filtered access" to THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST (QUEST) which prevents the discussion of "untoward" subjects and gets the membership only well acquainted with certain individuals who might run for office. JHE--> Theosophy (capital "T") to me is the study of the ideas promulgated by the Theosophical Society found in 1875; ideas promulgated by the schisms; and ideas promulgated by organizations inspired by the original Organizations. Small "t" theosophy, on the other hand, is the study of those ideas believed to be derived from intercourse with God, the gods, or angels. RI--> I agree with this 4%. In my opinion, the future of the TS is very bleak unless it can somehow ween itself away from this capital-T indulgence. This will be very difficult, if not impossible. The doctrinal association came down to us over time courtesy of many, many individuals who could not resist the temptation to have something "solid" in terms of belief or "teachings" to point to. If it is HPB's Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis one subscribes to, perhaps one should simply say "Cosmogenesis" and "Anthropogenesis" rather than "Theosophy." By continuing to insist that there is both a brand-name Theosophy and a lesser generic theosophy, all the problems of the organization get perpetuated. For example, your Theosophy includes "ideas promulgated by the schisms"; however, it is doubtful that many of the former or present ES would be willing to go along with such an inclusive view of what comprises real Theosophy. Thus, you are out, organizationally speaking, and there is a good reason to keep you out, organizationally speaking. Perhaps more important from my standpoint, however, is the way that "small-t" ~theosophy~ often gets defined. "Those ideas believed to be derived from intercourse with God, the gods, or angels," is not such a good representation, in my opinion. The whole idea of theosophy, it seems to me, is that each individual has the capacity to unite with his or her own "divine nature," and as a result of this union, things can be known which cannot be known in any other way. Maybe if this ~process~ gradually became known as capital-T ~Theosophy~, the TS could be saved, after all. . . . ~theosophy~: "valid knowledge which has its base in, or at least originally derives from, transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher perception." ~Theosophy~: "The Universal of which ~theosophy~ is the particular." ~Theosophy~: "The organization or general modern movement." ~Theosophy~: "The factitious synonymizing of a term by Saducees and Pharisees so that every Jesus after Jesus is forced to eventually leave the Temple in dispair that he or she must not have really been Jewish to begin with." Godspeed, Richard Ihle p.s. I got URUR--thanks! From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:22:56 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Takeover fears Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Doss, > > In a message dated 97-02-14 19:53:38 EST, you write: > > > there is > >likely to be political attention being paid by some congressman or senator > >who in turn asks IRS to investigate into the allegation that ES defacto > >controls a democratic tax exempt organization. This will lead to all the > >officers (including past ones) being put on oath and asked very many probing > >questions. In addition they will also dig into all paperwork. > > If the TS is chartered as a religious or spiritual body, no politician will > touch that with a ten foot pole. The first amendment lawyers will come in > and make hash of any attempt at an investigation with every major and minor > religious body in the US (especially the Roman Catholic Church) filing friend > of the court briefs. > > Chuck the Heretic It is a good question, as to under what category TS has tax exempt status. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:29:54 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: TS Membership Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Alan, > > In a message dated 97-02-14 20:20:04 EST, you write: > > >Last time I did this from Bristol (only 120 miles) I was not even > >offered anything to eat. Some brotherhood. > > > > > > It could have been worse. The Milwaukee lodge was giving subscriptions to > the Quest as an honorarium for speakers who weren't already TS members. I > asked the lodge president if they ever came back. She was less than amused. > > Chuck the Heretic > It looks like the situation in the US is really not that good. Several years ago when I was in India, I had to visit one of the cities on business and before I went there I contacted the TS members living in that city. I believe there were four or five of them. During my stay, I was the guest of honor at a special dinner in homes of one of the members and all the members and their families were there. We all just met and I did not even have to give a talk. They felt very good in meeting a member of TS visiting from out of town. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:57:53 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: digest 907 Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 RIhle@aol.com wrote: > Furthermore, perhaps even a clear majority would have a difficult time > raising objections to anything, at least in the Americn Section. For one > thing, there is the "secret membership list" strategy which prevents any > unapproved informational mailings to all members. For another thing, there > is the "filtered access" to THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST (QUEST) which prevents > the discussion of "untoward" subjects and gets the membership only well > acquainted with certain individuals who might run for office. The only hope I see for the future is Internet to open up the eyes of members to the real reality of the situation. It is going to take some time. When you add the factor that there are still a lot of members in the 80s and 90s for whom TS is a religion and it is too late for them to open up and see the reality. As more and more younger members and potential members get interested, it is highly likely that they have Internet access. It is going to provide them information which will make them understand that what they see is not what they get as far as the organization is concerned. From this point of view, some of us who have been around and are aware of. In an unrelated matter, in a recent conversation with a member of TSA, the member suggested that the receipt of and tallying of votes in all national elections may have to be given to the Certified Public Accounting Firm, just like they do in Oscar and other awards so that the confidence in the process can be assured for all members. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:47:00 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: John Algeo's letter Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > If the letter, or any piece of information, was published on > on theos-l, there is the question of whether it was worth the effort. > That is because there are a grand total of 128 people subscribed to > theos-l, at the last count. And some of these may not be sympathetic > to your cause. > > If your aim is exposing someone or revealing the truth, then these > 128 or so people would have to pass it on to their friends, lodges and > study groups, who would then take it up with others. That is, if they > even are members of any or even belong to TS! You would have to > form a network beyojnd the Internet to truly make a difference. Ann ... Well, I'm not so sure. The numbers are small, but a number of the most ell known and well connected are on this list - either speaking or lurking. I know from my own point of view, *most* significant information that comes across this list I pass on to other Theosophists in my region - its been quite eye - opening for some of them to hear the kinds of discussions that go on. In my own case, anyway, I'm not a single 1 of that 128, but rather the conduit through which at least a dozen people are made aware of things that they otherwise simply would not have been aware of, and I wonder whether this is more the norm than the exception. I guess I kind of feel, sometimes, as though the effects, impact, and importance of this list may be considerably greater than most of us suspect. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:10:19 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: Takeover fears Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > If the TS is chartered as a religious or spiritual body, no politician will > touch that with a ten foot pole. The first amendment lawyers will come in > and make hash of any attempt at an investigation with every major and minor > religious body in the US (especially the Roman Catholic Church) filing friend > of the court briefs. > Chuck the Heretic Actually, I think you may be wrong here Chuck - what you say used to be the accepted wisdom in political circles until recently, but my friends in DC tell me there is an immense (though quiet) shift of the winds underway - brought about by several different reasons ... first, the great public abuses of the fundamentalists in the 80's - the Swaggert, Baker and other fiascos made national news, but numerous similar things happened at a smaller level - put the first chink in the armor of the "hands off religion" idea; the huge movement into politics of the Christian right further blurred the line, and finally, this is all taking place in a Washington environment in which Republicans are making a huge push to have the IRS look *much* more closely at non-profits in general. The groups that get in trouble, however, virtually always do so (as with Baker and Swaggert) because the group itself engaged in internal nefarious behaviour. Other organizations will support one another when the case is a simple one of religious freedom, but look at the TS if Doss' scenario comes true - an "Occult" organization, claiming to be democratic and enjoying non-profit status, siezes property by using a bylaw a ruling faction shoved through *illegaly* (that is, the TS broke its own bylaws in changing the bylaws), is discovered to have a clearly non-democratic ES with possible ties to India calling virtually all the shots - and on top of that we must remember that in the view of Christian fundamentalists *HPB* is to this day preached about as sitting pretty much at the right hand of Satan ... is held responsible for introducing the darkest of evils - oriental occultism, the "new age" and etc., to the western world ... No, I suspect the Catholic church would be too politically astute to comment (they'd have little to gain and much to lose) and the fundamentalists would very likely file amicus briefs *against* the TS, they'd love to see it perish altogether. And a whole pile of the new conservative class of politicians would actually feel their careers would be *helped* by going after an "occult" group ... *they'd* have much to *gain* and little to *lose* with their constituants. -JRC From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:55:25 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Spam Message-ID: <199702160116.UAA04298@newman.concentric.net> I was complaining about some spam that was sent me and my husband told me his favorite spam was the one that asked for one dollar for the secret of getting rid of mice, using no poisons or traps. For one dollar, you would get a small hammer and instructions, which told you to catch the mouse by the tail and hit it on the head with the hammer. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:34:49 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: THEOS-L Digest 907 Message-ID: <199702160134.RAA01561@proxy2.ba.best.com> Einar: >Here is an issue: How can we make theosophy PRACTICAL for the >average spiritual seeker, and still maintain high quality spiritual >standard of H.P.B's unique teachings? I definitely go with that. My wheels are starting to move through the fog of my cold medication... Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 02:04:40 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: An Interesting Letter from ML to APS Message-ID: In message <970214161122_916723056@emout01.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >But it's nice to know the masters still like me even though I pick on them. No we don't. The masters (signed) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 20:52:45 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Takeover fears Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970216025245.0070ee80@mail.eden.com> At 08:12 PM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: >> >> If the TS is chartered as a religious or spiritual body, no politician will >> touch that with a ten foot pole. The first amendment lawyers will come in >> and make hash of any attempt at an investigation with every major and minor >> religious body in the US (especially the Roman Catholic Church) filing friend >> of the court briefs. >> Chuck the Heretic > >Actually, I think you may be wrong here Chuck - what you say used to be >the accepted wisdom in political circles until recently, but my friends in >DC tell me there is an immense (though quiet) shift of the winds underway >- brought about by several different reasons ... first, the great public >abuses of the fundamentalists in the 80's - the Swaggert, Baker and other >fiascos made national news, but numerous similar things happened at a >smaller level - put the first chink in the armor of the "hands off >religion" idea; the huge movement into politics of the Christian right >further blurred the line, and finally, this is all taking place in a >Washington environment in which Republicans are making a huge push to have >the IRS look *much* more closely at non-profits in general. The groups >that get in trouble, however, virtually always do so (as with Baker and >Swaggert) because the group itself engaged in internal nefarious >behaviour. Other organizations will support one another when the case is a >simple one of religious freedom, but look at the TS if Doss' scenario >comes true - an "Occult" organization, claiming to be democratic and >enjoying non-profit status, siezes property by using a bylaw a ruling >faction shoved through *illegaly* (that is, the TS broke its own bylaws in >changing the bylaws), is discovered to have a clearly non-democratic ES >with possible ties to India calling virtually all the shots - and on top >of that we must remember that in the view of Christian fundamentalists >*HPB* is to this day preached about as sitting pretty much at the right >hand of Satan ... is held responsible for introducing the darkest of evils >- oriental occultism, the "new age" and etc., to the western world ... > No, I suspect the Catholic church would be too politically astute >to comment (they'd have little to gain and much to lose) and the >fundamentalists would very likely file amicus briefs *against* the TS, >they'd love to see it perish altogether. And a whole pile of the new >conservative class of politicians would actually feel their careers >would be *helped* by going after an "occult" group ... *they'd* have much >to *gain* and little to *lose* with their constituants. > > -JRC Dear John: Thanks for giving an additional angle to the situation I did not realize. Let me add another factor to the scenario. Let us say the problem of asset seizure is in dispute in one city. Let us assume members in 10 different cities, who by now through Internet contacts become aware of the problem and a handful of members from each one of the 10 cities get in touch with their elected representatives and communicate their fears that their property can be at risk and impress on their representative (congressman and senators) that the property was donated by local donors for local use and an out of state/out of country organization is a threat to it, then you will see 10 congressmen and 10 senators getting interested. Usually congressmen and senators pay attention to local issues, and inquiries coming from multiple congressman and senators will surely draw the attention of DC people. In such an eventuality, the only thing going for TSA is their multi-million dollar TIT funds to finance the litigation/inquiry/investigation using some of the top legal talents that such money could buy. Once something like this get started by people in DC, they have unlimited resources, since they have our tax dollars to spend. The above possibilities do clearly exist and could not be completely ruled out. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:06:14 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: John Algeo's letter Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970216030614.0070b258@mail.eden.com> At 08:17 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins >> >> Level 5 concerns considerations of the greater good. Well, here >> we have room for all kinds of discussion. One might believe that >> publishing the letter would enlighten the theos-l audience as to >> the nature of TSA politics, and help to bring about some reforms. >> But one would also have to consider the possible consequences and >> damage that might come from such an act. >> >If the letter, or any piece of information, was published on >on theos-l, there is the question of whether it was worth the effort. >That is because there are a grand total of 128 people subscribed to >theos-l, at the last count. And some of these may not be sympathetic >to your cause. > >If your aim is exposing someone or revealing the truth, then these >128 or so people would have to pass it on to their friends, lodges and >study groups, who would then take it up with others. That is, if they >even are members of any or even belong to TS! You would have to >form a network beyojnd the Internet to truly make a difference. > >-AEB Great things have been achieved not because of masses. It is because of a few dedicated, unselfish, enthusiastic, well motivated individuals and due their persistence and self confidence in their mission. Again, as John mentioned, the information is spreading beyond the 128 individuals. In addition, the readership in theos-l is going to increase as more and more younger generation well versed in Internet get interested in it. This is going to take place and how fast I cannot predict. In addition there is feverish activity going on in creating the network computer and as soon as this becomes a reality, your will see mushrooming of access to Internet. Just by word of mouth, the availability of theos-l will spread and I expect a lot of members and newbees and interested individuals are going to read the traffic here. Once this gets started, no one will be able control or censor or stop it. Who knows this may be the tool for regeneration of TS for the next millenium, and the Real Founders may be working on it unknown to us. They may want it to be a truly philanthropic organization and not just a recruiting ground for the sheepish followers. As an optimist, I am looking forward to challenging and glorious years ahead. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 19:28:59 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: The Great 128 Message-ID: <199702161319.IAA22172@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: JRC > > On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > > If the letter, or any piece of information, was published on > > on theos-l, there is the question of whether it was worth the effort. > > That is because there are a grand total of 128 people subscribed to > > theos-l, at the last count. And some of these may not be sympathetic > > to your cause. > > > > If your aim is exposing someone or revealing the truth, then these > > 128 or so people would have to pass it on to their friends, lodges and > > study groups, who would then take it up with others. That is, if they > > even are members of any or even belong to TS! You would have to > > form a network beyojnd the Internet to truly make a difference. > > Ann ... > Well, I'm not so sure. The numbers are small, but a number of the > most well known and well connected are on this list - either speaking or > lurking. (She gasps.) I had no idea I was mingling in cyberspace with the great and the near-great. My inklings of hob-nobbing with TS celebrities came only from my banter with the Babe. ;-) >I know from my own point of view, *most* significant information > that comes across this list I pass on to other Theosophists in my region - > its been quite eye - opening for some of them to hear the kinds of > discussions that go on. In my own case, anyway, I'm not a single 1 of that > 128, but rather the conduit through which at least a dozen people are made > aware of things that they otherwise simply would not have been aware of, > and I wonder whether this is more the norm than the exception. I guess I > kind of feel, sometimes, as though the effects, impact, and importance of > this list may be considerably greater than most of us suspect. > I'm glad to hear your feedback, JRC. It gives me some idea of what is going on and what could be. I'm only a conduit for one person. I have an envelope full of printouts of posts to give to that person when I see them. I tend to be intensely practical, always wanting to see how ideas are manifesting in the "real" world - hence my skepticism. It is a trait that has irked others in both TSA and the LCC. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:55:46 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: The Great 128 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970216135546.006dbb48@mail.eden.com> At 08:21 AM 2/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: JRC > >I tend to be intensely practical, always wanting to see how ideas are >manifesting in the "real" world - hence my skepticism. It is a trait >that has irked others in both TSA and the LCC. > >-AEB > We need more "practical" theosophists who are dealing with real world here and now. It is because of individuals like you, that I still have high hopes of regeneration of TS. If something irks someone, it is their problem, is not it? MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:31:43 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Takeover fears Message-ID: <970216132907_785744809@emout09.mail.aol.com> Doss, Probably as a religious organization. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:32:01 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS Membership Message-ID: <970216133107_-2043561173@emout02.mail.aol.com> Doss, I'm told that most of the groups will treat their speakers well. I always have at least had a dinner when I've been invited. But the Milwaukee branch thing was so bizarre that I could not resist saying something to them. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:36:06 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Takeover fears Message-ID: <970216133606_-1139903184@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-15 20:12:43 EST, you write: > No, I suspect the Catholic church would be too politically astute >to comment (they'd have little to gain and much to lose) and the >fundamentalists would very likely file amicus briefs *against* the TS, >they'd love to see it perish altogether. And a whole pile of the new >conservative class of politicians would actually feel their careers >would be *helped* by going after an "occult" group ... *they'd* have much >to *gain* and little to *lose* with their constituants. > I have ot disagree on this for the simple reason that the legal issues (foreign control) would create precedent that could be used to splinter the American Catholic church. Their interests would demand entry on the TS side. As far as the politicians go, hell, the State Department is sticking up for the Scientologists of all people and congress is cheering it on. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:43:40 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: The Great 128 Message-ID: <970216134301_1611135033@emout05.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-16 08:59:57 EST, you write: > > If something irks someone, it is their problem, is not it? > > As long as theosophists don't start carrying guns. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:48:13 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: John Algeo's letter Message-ID: <9702162248.AA05015@toto.csustan.edu> > From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins > >Level 5 concerns considerations of the greater good. Well, here >we have room for all kinds of discussion. One might believe >that publishing the letter would enlighten the theos-l audience >as to the nature of TSA politics, and help to bring about some >reforms. But one would also have to consider the possible >consequences and damage that might come from such an act. AEB >If the letter, or any piece of information, was published on >on theos-l, there is the question of whether it was worth the >effort. That is because there are a grand total of 128 people >subscribed to theos-l, at the last count. And some of these may >not be sympathetic to your cause. JHE I'm not too concerned about the numbers. If members think the information is important, it will get around. AEB >If your aim is exposing someone or revealing the truth, then >these 128 or so people would have to pass it on to their >friends, lodges and study groups, who would then take it up with >others. That is, if they even are members of any or even belong >to TS! You would have to form a network beyojnd the Internet to >truly make a difference. JHE As for my "aim," I think I've already stated that I'm not in favor of publishing the letter. As for the distribution of information, the TS has a network far older than the Internet and it works incredibly well. It is called the "Theosophical grapevine." I have seen it elect Presidents, force one out of office, give some members prestige, and push others out of the TS. See below for Richard Ihle's description of how the management uses it: RI >>Furthermore, perhaps even a clear majority would have a >>difficult time raising objections to anything, at least in the >>Americn Section. For one thing, there is the "secret >>membership list" strategy which prevents any unapproved >>informational mailings to all members. For another thing, >>there is the "filtered access" to THE AMERICAN THEOSOPHIST >>(QUEST) which prevents the discussion of "untoward" subjects >>and gets the membership only well acquainted with certain >>individuals who might run for office. JRC >Ann ... >Well, I'm not so sure. The numbers are small, but a number of >the most ell known and well connected are on this list - either >speaking or lurking. I know from my own point of view, *most* >significant information that comes across this list I pass on to >other Theosophists in my region - its been quite eye - opening >for some of them to hear the kinds of discussions that go on. In >my own case, anyway, I'm not a single 1 of that 128, but rather >the conduit through which at least a dozen people are made aware >of things that they otherwise simply would not have been aware >of, and I wonder whether this is more the norm than the >exception. I guess I kind of feel, sometimes, as though the >effects, impact, and importance of this list may be considerably >greater than most of us suspect. JHE I would be interested in reading their responses when they hear about these discussions. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:49:48 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <9702162249.AA01057@toto.csustan.edu> >>JHE--> >>Theosophy (capital "T") to me is the study of the ideas >>promulgated by the Theosophical Society found in 1875; ideas >>promulgated by the schisms; and ideas promulgated by >>organizations inspired by the original Organizations. >> Small "t" theosophy, on the other hand, is the study of those >>ideas believed to be derived from intercourse with God, the >>gods, or angels. >RI--> >I agree with this 4%.. > >In my opinion, the future of the TS is very bleak unless it can >somehow ween itself away from this capital-T indulgence. This >will be very difficult, if not impossible. The doctrinal >association came down to us over time courtesy of many, many >individuals who could not resist the temptation to have >something "solid" in terms of belief or "teachings" to point to. JHE I sympathize and agree with your concerns, and I think our disagreement here is really more apparent than real. In truth, the Theosophical Society had doctrines (teachings) almost from the beginning. This idea of the TS having teachings was probably not in the minds of the seventeen or so original founders, but it became so through the writings of Blavatsky and Sinnett through the Mahatmas (regardless of whoever or whatever you believe or don't believe them to be). That doctrine was first formalized in 1883 in A.P. Sinnett's ESOTERIC BUDDHISM. Based upon my numerous readings and readings of the Mahatma Letters and of Blavatsky's writings, I think that it was Blavatsky's and the Mahatma's intention that the TS have teachings. However, it was never the intention that the TS have dogmas. I agree that the problems came through the "doctrinal association" that you mentioned. However, the problem was not with the doctrines, but with the "association" of the doctrines with dogma. When members of the TS began to become marginalzed for not agreeing with the beliefs of the management (i.e. world teacher, neo-theosophy, LCC, OSE, ER, Co-M, etc.), then the handwriting was already on the wall. RI >If it is HPB's Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis one subscribes >to, perhaps one should simply say "Cosmogenesis" and >"Anthropogenesis" rather than "Theosophy." By continuing to >insist that there is both a brand-name Theosophy and a lesser >generic theosophy, all the problems of the organization get >perpetuated. For example, your Theosophy includes "ideas >promulgated by the schisms"; however, it is doubtful that many >of the former or present ES would be willing to go along with >such an inclusive view of what comprises real Theosophy. Thus, >you are out, organizationally speaking, and there is a good >reason to keep you out, organizationally speaking. JHE I absolutely agree. I am "out, organizationally speaking." I was thrown out because I refused to conform to the Organizational dogmas, and worse yet, I tried to change them by advocating that the TS practice brotherhood towards the other Theosophical organizations. But if I were a member of the TS in 1887, my definition or beliefs would not have put me out. Currently, I have been researching W.B. Yeats' association with the TS, and it has become very clear that he resigned from the TS precisely because he saw the same dogmatic attitude developing that keeps me out of the Organization today. Yeats said that the TS started out as a great philosophical movement, but is turning into a religion. His criticism was not with the doctrines, but with the developing dogmatism among the membership. My definition of Theosophy is intended to include all of the doctrines generated by the TS, its schisms and Organizations inspired by those doctrines. But it excludes theosophy as understood by the seventeenth century philosophers. Antone Faivre in his recent book, ACCESS TO WESTERN ESOTERICISM, separates the two, because theosophy has its roots in the Greco- Egyptian world, where Theosophy syncretises this with Eastern philosophy and religion. I agree with this. Faivre also separates the Arcane School (Bailey), classifying it among the new age religions, while still considering Theosophy as a syncretic philosophy. That the former or present ES would not accept my definition of Theosophy or theosophy is no concern of mine. What they call Theosophy, is what I call neo-Theosophy. My personal interest is in Theosophy as it was in 1890, not in 1990. But the rejection of members who do not conform is not new. Around 1887 or so, Maude Gonne, a famous Irish revolutionary, once complained to HPB that she was rejected by the Dublin Theosophists because of her political activities. In her autobiography, Gonne quoted HPB's reply: `My deal child,' she said, `of course you can do what you like in politics. That has nothing to do with Theosophy. If a man, for instance, cut off a cow's tail" (the English papers at the time were full of talk of Land-League atrocities) it will injure his own Kharma, but it would not prevent him being a member of the Theosophical Society. They must be flapdoodles in that Dublin Branch. I will tell them so.' RI >Perhaps more important from my standpoint, however, is the way >that "small-t" ~theosophy~ often gets defined. "Those ideas >believed to be derived from intercourse with God, the gods, or >angels," is not such a good representation, in my opinion. JHE Perhaps not, but it is the definition used in THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PHILOSOPHY, and I believe it to be responsive to the historical usage of the term. My point was to separate the nineteenth century Theosophical movement from the classical theosophical movement. I realize that HPB wanted to make the Theosophical movement an extension of the classical theosophical movement, but later commentators outside of the TS make a distinction between the two. This is because HPB syncretised Eastern philosophy to what had always been a Western movement, thus creating a wholly different concept. I have to respect this distinction. It works. When discussing Theosophy with people who are not Theosophists, but know classical philosophy, it makes communication possible. The definition that annoys me is: "Theosophy is everything, but everything is not theosophy." Though it makes no logical sense, and explains nothing to an inquirer, it was in popular use among Theosophists for a while. Perhaps because of its pseudo-zen ring. RI >The whole idea of theosophy, it seems to me, is that each >individual has the capacity to unite with his or her own "divine >nature," and as a result of this union, things can be known >which cannot be known in any other way. Maybe if this ~process~ >gradually became known as capital-T ~Theosophy~, the TS could be >saved, after all. . . . JHE According to my understanding of Blavatskian Theosophy, uniting with one's own divine nature is a modern way of saying what the theosopher mystics meant when they talked of having intercourse with angels or gods. I see it as two ways of saying the same thing. RI > >~theosophy~: "valid knowledge which has its base in, or at >least originally derives from, transcendental, mystical, or >intuitive insight or higher perception." JHE Yes RI > >~Theosophy~: "The Universal of which ~theosophy~ is the >particular." JHE I think the syncretic philosophy as developed in Blavatsky's writings was intended to carry the label "Theosophy." Though the organization and its schisms has caused the term to grow beyond that. When I want to be more precise, I distinguish between Theosophy and neo-Theosophy. As for "theosophy", I reserve this term for the classical movement, as described in any good dictionary or encyclopedia. RI >~Theosophy~: "The organization or general modern movement." JHE For this definition, I use the terms "Theosophical Society" or "Theosophical Movement" RI >~Theosophy~: "The factitious synonymizing of a term by Saducees >and Pharisees so that every Jesus after Jesus is forced to >eventually leave the Temple in dispair that he or she must not >have really been Jewish to begin with." JHE What you define here, is what I believe to be the "Theosophy" taught and practiced by the present day ES. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 13:53:49 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: John Algeo's letter Message-ID: <199702170118.UAA13392@cliff.cris.com> > From: M K Ramadoss > >> > Great things have been achieved not because of masses. It is because of a > few dedicated, unselfish, enthusiastic, well motivated individuals and due > their persistence and self confidence in their mission. But the Aquarian Age is about group action, rather than the work of a few. That is why I look toward the many to solve problems. The groups may be focussed by the leadership of a few. > > Again, as John mentioned, the information is spreading beyond the 128 > individuals. In addition, the readership in theos-l is going to increase as > more and more younger generation well versed in Internet get interested in > it. Yesterday I went to CompUSA and saw they now have a children's section, complete with monitors set in a rocketship and little chairs. There are shelves and shelves of kid's software. There were people of all age groups in the store, but mostly men. The teenagers and young adults will surely be involved in the Net, but what are are they going to be surfing? Games? NetRadio? MTV? Scanned photos of Playboy foldouts? Hustler Online? It's a big Internet world out there and you're going to have to compete for attention. >This is going to take place and how fast I cannot predict. In addition > there is feverish activity going on in creating the network computer and as > soon as this becomes a reality, your will see mushrooming of access to > Internet. Just by word of mouth, the availability of theos-l will spread and > I expect a lot of members and newbees and interested individuals are going > to read the traffic here. Once this gets started, no one will be able > control or censor or stop it. > It's an intriguing idea, but I continue to play the Devilette's advocate here. I'd like to see some solid results and plans. When theos-l starts getting a couple hundred posts a day, I'll start to think you're onto something. > Who knows this may be the tool for regeneration of TS for the next > millenium, and the Real Founders may be working on it unknown to us. They > may want it to be a truly philanthropic organization and not just a > recruiting ground for the sheepish followers. Perhaps Chuck can clue us in on what the Real Founders are doing - he claims to have their ear. :-) It could well the tool for regenerating many organizations, but you have to put into people's hands to use it. The next few years to till 2000 could be crucial. > -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:13:08 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: John Algeo's letter Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970217031308.00bda800@mail.eden.com> At 08:23 PM 2/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> >> Great things have been achieved not because of masses. It is because of a >> few dedicated, unselfish, enthusiastic, well motivated individuals and due >> their persistence and self confidence in their mission. > >But the Aquarian Age is about group action, rather than the work of a few. That is >why I look toward the many to solve problems. The groups may be focussed >by the leadership of a few. >> >> Again, as John mentioned, the information is spreading beyond the 128 >> individuals. In addition, the readership in theos-l is going to increase as >> more and more younger generation well versed in Internet get interested in >> it. One more thing I want to add. Last year, about this time we had any where between 90 to 100 and now with 128 the increase of 28% is not bad considering very little publicity that theos-l has received within and outside Theosophy organizations. Added to this is the fact that there is a very large number of older people in theosophy organizations who for one reason or another cannot access Internet. So considering all these factors, the increase in the subscribership is quite good. > >Yesterday I went to CompUSA and saw they now have a children's section, >complete with monitors set in a rocketship and little chairs. There >are shelves and shelves of kid's software. > >There were people of all age groups in the store, but mostly men. > >The teenagers and young adults will surely be involved in the Net, but what are >are they going to be surfing? Games? NetRadio? MTV? Scanned >photos of Playboy foldouts? Hustler Online? It's a big Internet >world out there and you're going to have to compete for attention. > When more people start surfing, we will eventually get our share of interested surfers. How soon and how fast I can't tell. Just imagine about 4 years ago no one imagined about where Internet is today. So couple of years is a long time and where it is going and how, no one can predict. One thing for sure is that the usage is exponential. >>This is going to take place and how fast I cannot predict. In addition >> there is feverish activity going on in creating the network computer and as >> soon as this becomes a reality, your will see mushrooming of access to >> Internet. Just by word of mouth, the availability of theos-l will spread and >> I expect a lot of members and newbees and interested individuals are going >> to read the traffic here. Once this gets started, no one will be able >> control or censor or stop it. >> >It's an intriguing idea, but I continue to play the Devilette's advocate here. >I'd like to see some solid results and plans. When theos-l starts getting a couple >hundred posts a day, I'll start to think you're onto something. > >> Who knows this may be the tool for regeneration of TS for the next >> millenium, and the Real Founders may be working on it unknown to us. They >> may want it to be a truly philanthropic organization and not just a >> recruiting ground for the sheepish followers. > >Perhaps Chuck can clue us in on what the Real Founders >are doing - he claims to have their ear. :-) > >It could well the tool for regenerating many organizations, but you have to >put into people's hands to use it. The next few years to till 2000 could be >crucial. >> >-AEB > I agree. ...doss From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:19:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Takeover fears Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970217031936.00bb5ee4@mail.eden.com> At 01:35 PM 2/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >Doss, >Probably as a religious organization. > >Chuck the Heretic > Chuck: Since TS was grandfathered as a tax exempt organization, I do not know even if IRS has any documentation to indicate how it has classified it. TS was there long before IRS started classifying tax exempt organizations. It would be very interesting to findout. ..MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:08:32 -0500 (EST) From: Lmhem111@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 913 Message-ID: <970217135807_684385601@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-16 22:13:36 EST, you write: << My definition of Theosophy is intended to include all of the doctrines generated by the TS, its schisms and Organizations inspired by those doctrines. But it excludes theosophy as understood by the seventeenth century philosophers. Antone Faivre in his recent book, ACCESS TO WESTERN ESOTERICISM, separates the two, because theosophy has its roots in the Greco- Egyptian world, where Theosophy syncretises this with Eastern philosophy and religion. I agree with this. >> An added thought......... How old is theosophy?. Here is what St. Paul has to say about it in his first letter to the folks at Corinth. "But we speak the wisdom (theos) of God (sophia) in a mystery, a wisdom which God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written: ‘No eye hath seen, nor ear heard: neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for those that love him' but to us God hath revealed them by his Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, even the deep things of God." - 1 Cor 2:7-10 Here we can understand esoterically that the "Spirit" is Atma which reveals the Divine Wisdom or the Wisdom of God to man (manas). This experience is echoed by Jacob Boehme who says:"Nor have I ascended into heaven, nor have I seen all the works and creations of God, but heaven has revealed itself within my spirit in such a way that I there recognize the divine works and creations. By my own powers I am as blind as the next man, but through the spirit of God, my own inborn spirit pierces all things..." Here's a quote from St. Maximos the Confessor (580-662 A.D.) "By contemplating that diversity, who will not perceive that the single Logos is a multitude of logoi...and, conversely, the multitude is one in the universal return towards Him?" Sounds pretty theosophical too me. When Plotinus was dying from cancer of throat, he greeted a friend with the words, "I was waiting for you, before the divine in me joins the divine in the universe". Sounds pretty much like the namascar greeting in India, doesn't it?. My point is, I feel that theosophists in general are negligent in acquainting themselves with the antecedents of so-called "modern theosophy". Theosophy did not originate with HPB as she herself acknowledges in The Key to Theosophy.. If one is interested in a survey of theosophy through the centuries, I would recommend the following: TheoSophia by Arthur Versluis, (Lindisfarne Press, 1994. ISBN 0-940262-64-9) Ancient Landmarks - reprinted articles from THEOSOPHY magazine, U.L.T. Great Theosophists - reprinted articles from THEOSOPHY magazine, U.L.T. For specific authors, I would try for a start - Six Theosophic Points by Jacob Boehme, first published 1620 (reprint - Ann Arbor Paperbacks, 1980 - ISBN 0-472-06017-1). Theosophia Practica (7 volumes) by Johann Gitchel published in Amsterdam in 1721 and republished in Paris by the Bibliotheque Rosicrucienne in 1897. It was from here that C.W. Leadbeater reproduced Gitchel's diagram of the chakras in his own work on the same subject. I would also recommend any of the works by Rene Guenon. LunarPitri ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:41:02 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 913 Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Feb 1997 Lmhem111@aol.com wrote: > I would also recommend any of the works by Rene Guenon. > > LunarPitri > Are Rene's work available in English. I was told his works are in French. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:43:17 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: John Algeo's letter Message-ID: <970217144316_1979815402@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-16 20:23:30 EST, you write: > >Perhaps Chuck can clue us in on what the Real Founders >are doing - he claims to have their ear. :-) > > Their ears aren't the problem. It's having the rest of one of them stuck in my linen closet... Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:46:53 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Takeover fears Message-ID: <970217144650_-1407988516@emout15.mail.aol.com> Doss, That is a very interesting question. I did not realize it was done that way. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:48:11 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Blue's question Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970217204811.00707610@mail.eden.com> At 08:46 AM 2/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: ti-l@vnet.net >> >> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 97 22:24:28 EST >> From: "K. Paul Johnson" >> Subject: Blue's question >> >> The faction to which I referred is the Esoteric Section, and >> the evil it has done has been a subject of vociferous debate on >> theos-l, 95% of the information coming from other sources >> than myself. . . > >Thanks for posting this. This is the most information I've ever >gotten about what ES is and how it works. One member of ES >told me it was just an "advanced study group." > >Maybe you can answer this question. Does the ES believe that >the Masters are in contact with anyone else besides themselves? >How does anyone really know that ES is in contact with the Masters? > >-AEB Do you recall the episode relative to action taken on Gerda in connection with the "secret" and "sacred" membership list (I do not know if they worship the list as a "sacred" object) and how she left and later was invited back to ES? She was willing to rejoin if there was an assurance that in matters of organizational decision she will be permitted to decide based on her conscience and there was no response to this question. (I am quoting from memory). MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 02:26:29 +0000 From: Alan Subject: Re: registry Message-ID: In message <970216201212_1049625184@emout15.mail.aol.com>, Jewel10191@aol.com writes >please enter my name into your register. It is done! Welcome to Theosophy International! Can you please e-mail a name by which we can call you? For the present you will be listed in the register as Jewell. Separate info file follows. Alan Bain (TI co-ordinator) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 02:35:58 -0500 (EST) From: Lmhem111@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 914 Message-ID: <970218023558_1080450818@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-17 22:15:19 EST, you write: << Are Rene's work available in English? I was told his works are in French. MKR >> Regarding your enquiry about the works of Rene Guenon. The following volumes can be procured from James R. Wetmore at Sophia Perennis et Universalis, RD2 Box 223B, Ghent, New York 12075 (telephone: 518-672-4323) (fax 518-672-5242) The following titles are available. The Great Triad - paperback $17.95, cloth, $29.95 The Lord of the World - paperback $14.95 Man and his Becoming according to the Vedanta - cloth $18.95 Studies in Hinduism - cloth $18.50 Symbolism of the Cross - paperback $24.95 Crisis of the Modern World - cloth $29.95 Fundamentals of the Sacred Science - enquire about price Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrine - $25.95 Multiple States of Being - cloth, $13.95 A Chapter of French Symbolist Thought in the 20th Century (Ph.D. Thesis of Rene Guenon [reproduced]) - $55.95 This is from a somewhat dated catalogue (1993). There may be more books by the same author for purchase now. I would write or phone for a current catalogue. LunarPitri From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 04:52:50 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: TI-L digest 121 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970218105250.006e6518@mail.eden.com> At 09:49 PM 2/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Ann, > >I'm sure the party line in the ES, like the TS generally, is >that the Masters act through all sorts of people and not just >through them. But on the other hand, they do have a kind of >proprietary attitude, as seen in the overreactions to >Baileyites in the TS. It's hard to know with such a secretive >bunch. Greg Tillett told me that he came out and asked Radha >Burnier whether she was in touch with the Masters, and her >answer seemed to be no. But I've heard from others closer to >the TS that all ES members are supposed to be under the >watchful guidance of some particular Master from the TS >pantheon. JHE can probably answer this one as well as anyone >in this country who is not in the ES; outside the US Tillett is >perhaps the most informed. As for how they know the ES is in >touch with Masters, I can only speculate: it was alleged to be >founded by the Masters' orders, the instructions supposedly >come from the Masters, and people do meditative practices that >are supposed to get them in touch with their adept sponsors. >Given the power of suggestion and peer pressure, I reckon the >ES is a hotbed of people who imagine themselves to be in >communication with Morya, K.H., or who knows who else. > >Dear Doss, > >I used to believe as you do, that as long as you're not running >for office, you won't get molested by the TS/ES powers that be. >(JHE has the right to say "I told you so" on this one.) But >there are other ways than running for office to pull their >chains, and I for damn sure found one-- writing about the >Masters. Dear Paul: I firmly believe that discussions we have on Internet is ultimately going to make members think for themselves and come to their own decision and a day will come when members are going to demand changes. However, there is going to be some a segment of the membership whose beliefs are firmly almost laid in stone, that they will not and cannot see anything outside of the beliefs they sincerely and honestly hold. There is nothing that we can do about this segment. One of the issues I want to mention here is that but for the Masters we would not what we know as T/theosophy and I do not want to bring them down to our level. Traditionally, especially in the East, Adepts, Masters, Rishis, Arhats, Jivanmuktas are revered for their achievement in spiritual matters. So I personally do not want to alienate anyone on this issue because we need the cooperation and help from anyone and everyone in this great task of making T/theosophy accessible to everyone, even though They do not care what we think of Them (I believe this was made very clear in one of the letters to APS.) They have a great job to do and they can use all the help they can get from ordinary individuals like you and me, however little our contributions may be. Looking at the sorrow and suffering and problems that are around us and all over the world, I am very grateful for T/theosophy for developing an outlook on life which helps my interaction with other living beings, so that I can do whatever little I can to help everyone and anyone. As for the organizational matters, I believe things are going to change. More light is going to be focused on each and every move that takes place anywhere in the world. IMHO, Internet is the key and with some patience (I hope I will long enough to see the changes) this is going to happen. How soon, who can tell. In the meanwhile, we need to speak up for what we think is right. Whether somebody else likes it or not, is not our problem but theirs. Thanks again for your response. MKR > >Dear Blue, > >Not knowing how much of your remarks about the government to >consider tongue-in-cheek, I can only assure you that there is a >press and an opposition party that keep any elected president >under constant scrutiny. Whereas in the case of the Outer >Head/TS President, there's no independent journalism and things >are now rigged so no one can possibly ever run against her. >And in the national section, things are about in the same fix. > >Cheers, >Paul > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 05:03:37 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 914 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970218110337.006e978c@mail.eden.com> At 02:38 AM 2/18/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-02-17 22:15:19 EST, you write: > ><< Are Rene's work available in English? I was told his works are in French. > > MKR >> > >Regarding your enquiry about the works of Rene Guenon. The following volumes >can be procured from James R. Wetmore at Sophia Perennis et Universalis, RD2 >Box 223B, Ghent, New York 12075 >(telephone: 518-672-4323) (fax 518-672-5242) > >The following titles are available. > >The Great Triad - paperback $17.95, cloth, $29.95 >The Lord of the World - paperback $14.95 >Man and his Becoming according to the Vedanta - cloth $18.95 >Studies in Hinduism - cloth $18.50 >Symbolism of the Cross - paperback $24.95 >Crisis of the Modern World - cloth $29.95 >Fundamentals of the Sacred Science - enquire about price >Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrine - $25.95 >Multiple States of Being - cloth, $13.95 >A Chapter of French Symbolist Thought in the 20th Century >(Ph.D. Thesis of Rene Guenon [reproduced]) - $55.95 > > >This is from a somewhat dated catalogue (1993). There may be more books by >the same author for purchase now. I would write or phone for a current >catalogue. > >LunarPitri Thanks for the detailed information. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 19:42:41 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: HPB & Tibetan Buddhism Message-ID: <19970219004237.AAA623@JerrySchueler> HPB was a Buddhist, and she claimed to have been initiated in Tibet. Her writings do indicate a strong understanding of Mahayana Buddhism, but the extent of her knowledge of Buddhism as practiced in Tibet is uncertain. In the past, it was virtually impossible to ascertain the closeness of her Theosophy to the teachings of what is now called Tibetan Buddhism (Vajrayana). But today, with the wealth of books on Tibetan Buddhism written and/or translated by Tibetan Lamas, it is possible for any theosophist to reach her own conclusion. Buddhism, as taught and practiced in Tibet, can generally be grouped into a three-part philosophy with a four-step spiritual path. The first part is the Sutras: a reading and studying of scriptural texts together with the development of ethics and morals. The second is the Tantras: rituals and yogic visualization exercises that use emotions and mentality to overcome emotions and mentality. The third is Dzogpa Chenpo or Dzogchen: yogic exercises intended to reach a state of non-duality (samadhi) and maintaining this state in daily life. HPB and her theosophical successors generally have emphasized the first or the sutric yanas. Honorable mention is sometimes given to the tantras ("The Tantras read esoterically are as full of wisdom as the noblest occult works." ES Instruction III, CW XII, p. 606). But tantric yanas are absent, and sometimes labeled as Black Magic. There is no mention of Dzogchen at all. (The above quote, which give Tantra equal billing to Sutra, would not be accepted by most Tibetans who would suggest that the Tantra yanas excel the sutric yanas by a wide margin.) Training for the spiritual path as practiced in Tibet includes what are called mudras or seals and these are fourfold. The first is karma (action) mudra which uses a physical partner, jnana (wisdom) mudra which uses an internal or imaginary partner, samaya (pledge) mudra which includes using the nadis and chakras to generate psychic heat and bliss, and maha (great) mudra which accomplishes the goal directly using Zen-like techniques. None of these important mudras are discussed in theosophical literature. However, some descriptions of the nadis and chakras were given out by HPG near the end of her life, and this was carried forward by C. W. Leadbeater in his classic 'The Chakras.' But even Leadbeater addressed only the theoretical side, omitting discussions of any practical applications such as the generation of psychic heat. What is especially unclear to us today, is whether HPB was aware of Buddhist Tantras or of Dzogchen. Was she aware of the Tibetan emphasis on the need for a qualified karma mudra? Did she know that the Tibetans teach many levels of bliss, and emphasize the need for their attainment? Or, did she deliberately omit these subjects as possibly being too much for the puritanical West? However we care to answer these questions, the wealth of Tibetan books currently on the market suggests that modern theosophists could benefit from a serious study of these topics. The spiritual path, as currently taught in the modern Theosophical Movement, addresses only the sutra stage, that of reading and study coupled with ethical development. While the need for this stage is obvious, there may be a few theosophists who hunger for more, who would dare to take another step along the path, but who lack direction. A few have already addressed ways that we Westerners can stimulate the chakras, but more needs to be done. The difficulty here is to demonstrate a viable spiritual path for today's Westerners that embraces the theosophical world view while going beyond the techniques currently anctioned by the Theosophical Movement, which have proved to be woefully inadequate. Food for thought. Jerry S. Member, TI ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:06:33 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <970218200631_718078884@emout06.mail.aol.com> Jerry Hejka-Ekins writes--> In truth, the Theosophical Society had doctrines (teachings) almost from the beginning. This idea of the TS having teachings was probably not in the minds of the seventeen or so original founders, but it became so through the writings of Blavatsky and Sinnett through the Mahatmas (regardless of whoever or whatever you believe or don't believe them to be). That doctrine was first formalized in 1883 in A.P. Sinnett's ESOTERIC BUDDHISM. Based upon my numerous readings and readings of the Mahatma Letters and of Blavatsky's writings, I think that it was Blavatsky's and the Mahatma's intention that the TS have teachings. Richard Ihle writes--> A super-worthy post as usual, Jerry, and as usual, far fuller with better information than most TPH-published writing. If I had to accept some definition of ~Theosophy~ which connected it only to certain teachings, I might choose yours since it at least includes much more of the “Apocrypha.” Still, making ~Theosophy~ mean something other than the organization/movement or the Universal “Theo-sophia” seems to me like the worst idea in Theosophical history. For one thing, it immediately generates the problem of what the ~Theosophical~ in ~The Theosophical Society~ really stands for. It is hardly likely that those in charge will accept the idea that it is a much broader small-t definition (e.g., "knowledge which has its base in, or at least originally derives from, transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher perception") which is intended by the name of the Society. No. If ~Theosophy~ means “HPB doctrine,” then ~The Theosophical Society~ is an organization for the study and promotion of HPB doctrine. (Your more inclusive teachings-definition, I am afraid, is irrelevant, realpolitikly speaking.) Am I the only one who ever joined the Society thinking that it was an organization for general Truth-Seekers who are at least willing to consider knowledge and wisdom which might not have its origin in a scientific laboratory? Was and is everyone else a Blavatsky-Seeker? I don’t think so. Nevertheless, sincere Truth-Seekers within the Society ~will always~ arrive at HPB’s doorstep, in my opinion, simply because no one in history has left behind so much quality theosophy to consider. However, whatever HPB's intentions were or were not regarding her teachings, she almost surely would ~not~ have wanted the Society to end up in its present condition--i.e., not able to attract new generations of Seekers because of some brainless idea that the Society should only try to attract individuals who are willing to exclusively clamp themselves from day one into the iron maiden of THE SECRET DOCTRINE and related writings. Indeed, I think HPB would have had a conniption if she could have known that the powers within the Society would someday become so obtuse that they could no longer appreciate the genius of the original structure: attract the many; from the many, attract the few; from the few, attract the fewer still who can contribute in perhaps new ways. Gurdjieff, Heindel, Steiner--just a small sample of those who had to leave the Society in order to make their theosophical contributions. Why? Because ~Theosophy~ unofficially equaled specific doctrine even in their day--at least in the secret ES councils. Now, of course, there are those who want to make it official. This “definition-building” is a very subtle thing, and it has been developing little by little for a long, long time. Only two things remain to be accomplished, in my opinion: 1) a direct official statement that ~Theosophy~ is simply a lexical synonym meaning “HPB-teachings,” and 2) a direct official statement that these teachings occupy a special place above conventional scrutiny and debate because they were the special supernatural dispensations from the special supernatural Mahatmas. We’re moving closer. Read the relatively recent, suddenly-authorized-by-someone, committee-generated "The Theosophical World View": "The Theosophical Society, while reserving for each member full freedom to interpret THOSE TEACHINGS KNOWN AS THEOSOPHY, [caps added] . . . ." What "teachings" are being referred to here? The nice, wide range of teachings Jerry Hejka-Ekins thinks should be defined as ~Theosophy~? No way. Take a look at John Algeo's "Viewpoint" column in QUEST/AT. Here we learn several interesting things about ourselves as "more-clearly-defined-Theosophists": e.g., "Theosophists do not mourn, we do not grieve at death." Really? I mourn. I grieve at death. Does that mean that definitionally speaking I am not really a Theosophist? No, what it means is that Algeo now thinks that the TS is something like a political party with a party platform and with him chosen as one of the few to lead the rest of us safely and correctly down the otherwise tricky path of capital-T Theosophical Truth. But what about "Truth is a pathless land"? --Oops, I forgot for a second: that contribution had to be made OFF-CAMPUS, too, didn't it? Can anyone think that HPB would have ever wanted the grand term ~Theosophy~ to become an actual synonym for ~just those things~ she was "allowed to give out" in her brief lifetime? I cannot imagine it. "More to come later," she implied again and again. HPB wrote a great deal, and there may have been instances where she herself used the term to mean her specific doctrines; however, more commonly, when she talked about ~Theosophy~ it was the Universal, never fully comprehensible ~Theo-sophia~ which seemed to be the referent--and which her writings were just a humble attempt to partially communicate. Can anyone think that HPB ever wanted the ~Theosophical~ in the name of the ~outer~ organization to one day just stand for what she wrote and nothing more? No, I think she wanted as broad a "catch basin" as possible. Thus, I continue to believe that the Theosophical Society was and still is supposed to be the general gathering place for any and all individuals who are at least willing to consider the broad category of knowledge which "has its base in, or at least originally derives from, transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher perception." This is the catch basin which caught me, at least. It is such a paradox, really: just as the world seems to have become ready, with its advances in cybernetic communications etc., for a truly international organization of theosophically inclined Truth-Seekers, the Theosophical Society puts the finishing touches on a special definition which can only make it look from every place on the globe even more so like a tired old cult run for the egoistic benefit of a relatively small number of not-quite-tired-enough old cultists who are still bull-dogging the official reins with that special jaw-power which only rigor mortis can impart. . . . Godspeed, Richard Ihle From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:37:06 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: HPB & Tibetan Buddhism Message-ID: <970219133705_786200633@emout14.mail.aol.com> Jerry, In a message dated 97-02-18 19:57:50 EST, you write: > While the need for >this stage is obvious, there may be a few theosophists >who hunger for more, who would dare to take another step >along the path, but who lack direction. A few have >already addressed ways that we Westerners can stimulate >the chakras, but more needs to be done. The difficulty >here is to demonstrate a viable spiritual path for >today's Westerners that embraces the theosophical world >view while going beyond the techniques currently >anctioned by the Theosophical Movement, which have >proved to be woefully inadequate. I doubt that there are very many people, either inside or outside of the Theosophical world, that care whether a technique is sanctioned or not. What the TS really needs to do is recognize that fact and stop hiding behind a bunch of rules that no one outside the ES would follow. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:55:02 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Biography of C W Leadbeater Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970219225502.00693884@mail.eden.com> Hi, Dr. Peter Michel: (leadbeater@bluestar.com) I am very glad to know that you are in the process of developing a biography on the life and work of CWL. I do not know if you are on Internet. There are maillists on Theosophy on Internet and I do not know if you are aware of them. There have been a lot of discussion about CWL and his work. The participants/subscribers are from several countries of the world. I recall some unpublished material being posted there. You may want to subcribe to these lists and may be someone who has new material can provide them for your biography. I am giving below the information on the maillists. For the old messages, you may have to research the old archived files. I am also copying this msg to theos-l and ti-l. If you have any questions, please send me a e-mail. MK Ramadoss ------------------------------------------- How to Join the Theosophy Mail lists on INTERNET Joining and participating in the mail lists are free. The following mail lists are owned by John E Mead and is independent of all Theosophical Organizations and does not receive any direct or indirect financial support from any of them. There are five Theosophy lists: THEOS-L - General Theosophy discussions. This is the main list. THEOS-BUDS - Discussing the future of the TS. THEOS-ROOTS - History, and historical literature of the TS. THEOS-NEWS - News and announcements about Theosophical events and activities. THEOS-SPAN - For the benefit of Spanish Speaking members. There is also mail list TI-L which is owned by Alan Bain of Theosophy International. It is also located at vnet.net and for joining it, the procedure is same. How to join (get on) the Theosophy lists: Send an e-mail message to the following address. LISTSERV@VNET.NET In the body of the message type just this line: subscribe Example: subscribe THEOS-L Mary Doe subscribe TI-L If there are any questions/problems with all the above lists, send e-mail to John at jem@vnet.net. For TI-L send a message to "Dr. A.M.Bain" at guru@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:05:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Biography of CWL Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970219230530.006b108c@mail.eden.com> I just copied a msg to Peter Michel who is working on a Biography of CWL. There was, what appears to be a paid advertisement in March 1997 Quest which I reproduce below. Biography of Charles W Leadbeater Charles W Leadbeater was certainly one of the most influential authors in the history of the Theosophical Society and his writings have had significant role in forming the world view that we now refer to as the New Age. However, to date, there has only been one book written about his life, the biography "The Elder Brother" by Gregory Tillett. I believe additional perspectives are needed, to provide a richer and more balanced perspective on this important figure. For this reason, I am in the process of developing a new biography on the life and work of CWL, one that I hope will do justice to him and his important role in the Theosophical Society. I am looking for any unpublished material I may be able to use (eg. letters, personal recollections, other original documents). If you possess any such material, I request your help. Please forward any documents, or copies, to either of the addresses listed below and they will forward them to me. I will certainly be happy to reimburse you for any costs you might incur. Thank you very much for your cooperation. Dr. Peter Michel Snail mail address & phone numbers in the US and Germany Deleted here. The e-mail address is leadbeater@bluestar.com From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:25:48 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <9702192325.AA20722@toto.csustan.edu> RI >Still, making ~Theosophy~ mean something other than the >organization/movement or the Universal ^STheo-sophia^T seems to >me like the worst idea in Theosophical history. > >For one thing, it immediately generates the problem of what the >~Theosophical~ in ~The Theosophical Society~ really stands for. >It is hardly likely that those in charge will accept the idea >that it is a much broader small-t definition (e.g., "knowledge >which has its base in, or at least originally derives from, >transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher >perception") which is intended by the name of the Society. No. >If ~Theosophy~ means ^SHPB doctrine,^T then ~The Theosophical >Society~ is an organization for the study and promotion of HPB >doctrine. (Your more inclusive teachings-definition, I am >afraid, is irrelevant, realpolitikly speaking.) JHE Yes, in the realpolitik world of the TS, I'm afraid you are right, my definitions are quite irrelevant. The TS, while posing as an open Organization, does have a very hidden agenda consisting of a Theosophy that evolved around 1940, and has remained essentially the same ever since. This Theosophy is not HPB doctrine, nor was Theosophy ever defined as such in the Adyar TS. Even during HPB's time, there were contending Theosophies even in the TS: A.P. Sinnett's and T. Subba Row's were the best known. But I long ago lost confidence in the TS to be able to recite its own history with any accuracy and consequently, even to realistically define itself anymore. In truth, the TS used to redefine itself from time to time, and consequently redefined the "Theosophy" it purports to represent. In 1875, there were a group of about 17 spiritualists attending meetings in a New York apartment because HPB and George Felt both claimed to be able to produce phenomena and communicate with superior beings. When the seventeen founders ran across the word "Theosophy" in Webster's 1875 edition, they read: ...wise in the things of God....Supposed intercourse with God and the superior spirits, and consequent attainment of superhuman knowledge of physical process, as by the theurgic operations of some ancient Platonists, or by the chemical processes of the German fire philosophers; also a direct as distinguished from a revealed, knowledge of God, supposed to be obtained by extraordinary illumination; especially, a direct insight into the processes of the divine mind, and the interior relations of the divine nature. Now George Felt claimed to have invented such a process to communicate with the "superior spirits," and he promised to demonstrate it. So it was proposed to form an organization, and those present decided to call it the Theosophical Society. In case Felt failed to bring home the bacon (and he did), Olcott felt that he had HPB as a backup and would avail her abilities for study. But HPB had other ideas and was hard at work finishing ISIS UNVEILED, which she had already begun in 1874. In those early days, there was no object of "world brotherhood," or the study of comparative religions, and there were no formal teachings. Rather, the objects of the TS evolved over a period of time and when through numerous revisions, the last one being in 1896. Our famous first object did not appear until 1878. I think Blavatsky's intention for the Organizational exposition of Theosophy is well outlined in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY. Here she makes it very clear that the Theosophical Society has teachings (not dogmas). Here she ties Theosophy to neo-Platonism, where she tries to syncretise her "cis-Himalayan" teachings to neo- Platonism and Eastern philosophy. But she never intended for her writings to become Bibles for defining Theosophy. There writings were supposed to be her contribution to "the Theosophical Movement," a concept she believed to exist. But how did Blavatsky move from an Organization that was originally interested in communicating with spirits, to one that had teachings? Keep in mind that Blavatsky was thrown out of Adyar in 1885 and moved to London where she tried to re-establish the Theosophical Society on what she claimed to be the "original lines." What were those original lines? Certainly not what the seventeen founders had in mind. Rather, it is what Blavatsky claimed the Masters had in mind from the beginning. But this Blavatskian Theosophy is not the Theosophy as understood by the present organization either. I don't believe that any Theosophical organization, including the ULT embraces what Blavatsky was trying to accomplish from 1886-91. I believe that Blavatsky had a free thought progressive philosophical organization in mind--very much like what you and I thought we were joining. Indeed, the Theosophical Society was just that between 1885 and 1890. Members had complete freedom to accept or reject Blavatsky's writings. Though, in London, most members of the TS were drawn into it because of Blavatsky. A.P. Sinnett complained of this. He had a competing Lodge in London where he had his own teachings and claimed to be in contact with the Masters through a medium who he identifies as "Mary." But when the Blavatsky Lodge was established, Sinnett's Lodge lost a lot of members, because everyone wanted to get to know Blavatsky. Olcott had his piece of the pie too. With Blavatsky gone from India, Olcott depended upon Subba Row to be his new expounder of Theosophy. Subba Row indeed began writing and lecturing on a Theosophy that was critical of HPB's, and caused quite a stir. He died in 1890. The only person who was working in cooperation with Blavatsky at the time was Judge in America. But even Judge had his own ideas about Theosophy and published them through his journal. Blavatsky seemed to have been comfortable with the contending Theosophies, and used them as more grist for her mill. What I'm trying to say is that the Theosophical Society of Blavatsky's day, in spite of the fact that it had teachings, was more open to the free and creative thinking than the organization has even been since. So what is the Theosophy of the present Organization? I believe that the real tuning point began in 1890. Annie Besant, who had joined in May of that year, began to have an almost immediate influence on the TS. W.B. Yeats commented, when he resigned in 1890, that the TS was turning into a religion. He was not criticizing the doctrines, but the dogma that was evolving under Besant's influence. There is a big difference between teachings and dogma, and Yeats among other saw the changing wind and left the Society. By 1895, Besant was already the most prominent member of the TS, but she was running out of Blavatskian Theosophy to redigest, and she had no teachings of her own. Her originality was in organizing and speaking, not in writing philosophy. So she became more and more dependent upon C.W. Leadbeater, who was quite good at coming up with new teachings. By 1908, all of Besant's revelations were from Leadbeater's clairvoyance. Through Leadbeater's influence, new teachings appeared: the innergoverment of the world, the coming world teacher, the LCC as the vehicle for the New Religion etc. Blavatsky became represented as the early revelation that predicted in veiled terms what was to come. The Theosophy of the 1920's was the new revelation. Those who would not accept it were marginalized. This continued until 1930 when Krishnamurti resigned from the Ts and dissolved the OSE. The present organizational definition of Theosophy has its roots in George Arundale's administration (1934-1945). He completely ignored Krishnamurti after 1930, and promoted a series of campaigns to make Theosophy everything. This is where the "Theosophy is everything" idea started. But I think that Arundale failed to understand that if Theosophy is everything, it is nothing. However, initiations, the ES, the LCC, Co-M continued behind the scenes, and the ER was established. So while Theosophy was presented to be public as anything they wanted it to be, the old machine established by Leadbeater, Besant and Arundale, continued to grind away behind the scenes. RI >Am I the only one who ever joined the Society thinking that it >was an organization for general Truth-Seekers who are at least >willing to consider knowledge and wisdom which might not have >its origin in a scientific laboratory? Was and is everyone else a Blavatsky-Seeker? JHE No. I had no interest in Blavatsky when I joined in 1963. Like you, I believed that I was joining a free-thought organization dedicated to the study of philosophy and comparative religions. The members of my Lodge gave me Leadbeater to read--so I read Leadbeater. But at the time, I was primarily interested in astrology. I also bought a copy of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, which I found fascinating but unreadable. In truth, part of my fascination with the book was *because* I found it unreadable, and that fact led me to resolve to read and understand it. By about 1970, I finally began concentrating upon doing that. Today, I'm more concerned with theosophy in the broader sense. Currently, our group is studying the CORPUS HERMETICUM. W.B. Yeats and G.R.S. Mead also joined the organization believing that it was for general Truth-Seekers. In those days, it was just that. Yeats left in 1890 when Besant began to dogmatise the Blavatsky Lodge. Mead hung in until 1908. Though Leadbeater's recall into the TS was the last straw for him, the dogmatization of Theosophy was the underlying issue for him. RI >I don^Rt think so. Nevertheless, sincere Truth-Seekers within >the Society ~will always~ arrive at HPB^Rs doorstep, in my >opinion, simply because no one in history has left behind so >much quality theosophy to consider. However, whatever HPB's >intentions were or were not regarding her teachings, she >almost surely would ~not~ have wanted the Society to end up in >its present condition--i.e., not able to attract new generations >of Seekers because of some brainless idea that the Society >should only try to attract individuals who are willing to >exclusively clamp themselves from day one into the iron >maiden of THE SECRET DOCTRINE and related writings. JHE I've known many old time Theosophists who never read Blavatsky. In fact, during the 20's and 30's members were discouraged from doing so, and encouraged to read the newer material published by Besant and Leadbeater. I agree that HPB never wanted her books to become Theosophical Bibles, but I don't think the TS ever wanted this either. Rather, I believe that the vast majority of TS members are ignorant of HPB's writings, and I would say the majority of the management too. The ES is where formal theosophical study officially takes place (Lodges are left to their own devices, as you may have noticed), and they decide on what to do. All ES members get around to Patanjali's YOGA APHORISMS, and Collins' LIGHT ON THE PATH. Before Radha came on the scene, everyone was reading Taimini books. Under Radha, they were reading Sri Ram's writings for awhile. But lately, everything has been dead, dead, dead. There are a minority of members who extol the virtues of Blavatsky's writings. I proudly admit to be one of them. But, speaking for myself, I don't think the TS should "clamp" itself to the SD either. But I do think that the Theosophical grapevine has done a lot to vilify Blavatsky students like myself and to misrepresent us as narrow people who try to redefine Theosophy as Blavatsky only teachings. If such members exist, who do as TSA accuses, I have never met one so far. Rather, I think the reason why the TS is unable to attract new generations of seekers, is not because of their embracing of Blavatsky, but because they are unable to any longer define themselves. When Blavatsky was a central influence between 1880 and 1890, the TS was growing. When Besant turned the TS into a religion between 1890 and 1930, she lost most of the earlier members, but attracted even more new ones. But when, Arundale made Theosophy to be everything, the membership began to drop, and by the time of his death in 1945, the membership was at is lowest point. Jinarajadasa 1946-1953 went back to the pre- Arundale days and created sort of a Besantine-sans-Krishnamurti Society that attracted a few more people, but the Society has remained little changed since then. I think the TS has long blaimed and misrepresented the "Back to Blavatsky" rhetoric as a cause of their problems. They blame the "Back to Blavskyites" as the cause of disruption in the TS. But the "Back to Blavatsky" argument as posed by H.N Stokes in 1918 was not a plea to banish all but Blavatskian Theosophy, but to banish the growing dogma in the Society--to go back to the undogmatic days of Blavatsky. As for people who want to study Blavatsky, they have never been in the Adyar TS in any numbers-- they know they are not welcome here--so they simply join ULT. Members of the Adyar TS, like myself who honor Blavatsky, do not want to clamp the TS to the SD, or to reject all Theosophies but Blavatsky. But we do want to return to those days when the TS was a non dogmatic philosophical organization. Therefore I reject Blavatskian dogmatism, Besantian dogmatism, Leadbeaterian dogmatism, and dogmatic Arundalean noncommitalism. RI >Indeed, I think HPB would have had a conniption if she could >have known that the powers within the Society would someday >become so obtuse that they could no longer appreciate the genius >of the original structure: attract the many; from the many, >attract the few; from the few, attract the fewer still who can >contribute in perhaps new ways. JHE HPB had a special honorary membership status for the few geniuses who she believed would be make great contributions to the Theosophical Movement. Thomas Edison was one who had such an honorary status. RI >Gurdjieff, Heindel, Steiner--just a small sample of those who >had to leave the Society in order to make their theosophical >contributions. Why? Because ~Theosophy~ unofficially equaled >specific doctrine even in their day--at least in the secret ES >councils. Now, of course, there are those who want to make it >official. JHE I was not aware that Gurdjieff was ever a member of the TS. As for Heindal, I would like to know more about the circumstances under which he left. With Steiner, your point is well taken. He would not accept or have anything to do with the OSE, and refused to charter OSE Lodges. But Besant turned the argument around and accused Steiner of narrowness and intolerance. RI >This ^Sdefinition-building^T is a very subtle thing, and it has >been developing little by little for a long, long time. Only >two things remain to be accomplished, in my opinion: 1) a direct official statement that ~Theosophy~ is simply a lexical synonym meaning ^SHPB-teachings,^T and 2) a direct official statement that these teachings occupy a special place above conventional scrutiny and debate because they were the special supernatural dispensations from the special supernatural Mahatmas. JHE Of course the TS will never accept such a "lexical synonym" because Blavatsky has never been accepted as the end all and be all in the TS. As for the "direct official statements" Since the days of Besant, that only happens in the ES--and the ES never publicly speaks for the TS. All of that is done privately. RI >We^Rre moving closer. Read the relatively recent, >suddenly-authorized-by-someone, committee-generated "The >Theosophical World View": "The Theosophical Society, while >reserving for each member full freedom to interpret THOSE >TEACHINGS KNOWN AS THEOSOPHY, [caps added] . . . ." What >"teachings" are being referred to here? The nice, wide range of >teachings Jerry Hejka-Ekins thinks should be defined as >~Theosophy~? No way. JHE I think the Theosophical World View was written under the still prevailing Arundale influence. Attract the general public with pretty sounding but next to meaningless statements, and filter those that stay and show commitment into the ES where the old dogma still lies and pulls the TS strings. RI >Take a look at John Algeo's "Viewpoint" column in QUEST/AT. >Here we learn several interesting things about ourselves as >"more-clearly-defined-Theosophists": e.g., "Theosophists do not >mourn, we do not grieve at death." Really? I mourn. I grieve >at death. Does that mean that definitionally speaking I am not >really a Theosophist? No, what it means is that Algeo now >thinks that the TS is something like a political party with a >party platform and with him chosen as one of the few to lead the >rest of us safely and correctly down the otherwise tricky path >of capital-T Theosophical Truth. JHE Guess, you better get out your FOR THOSE WHO MOURN pamphlet and get with it :-) RI >Can anyone think that HPB would have ever wanted the grand term >~Theosophy~ to become an actual synonym for ~just those things~ >she was "allowed to give out" in her brief lifetime? I cannot >imagine it. "More to come later," she implied again and again. >HPB wrote a great deal, and there may have been instances where >she herself used the term to mean her specific doctrines; >however, more commonly, when she talked about ~Theosophy~ it was >the Universal, never fully comprehensible ~Theo-sophia~ which >seemed to be the referent--and which her writings were just a >humble attempt to partially communicate. JHE Guite so. I think she tried to make it clear that she wanted people to read her writings and go beyond them. RI >Can anyone think that HPB ever wanted the ~Theosophical~ in the >name of the ~outer~ organization to one day just stand for what >she wrote and nothing more? No, I think she wanted as broad a >"catch basin" as possible. Thus, I continue to believe that the >Theosophical Society was and still is supposed to be the general >gathering place for any and all individuals who are at least >willing to consider the broad category of knowledge which "has >its base in, or at least originally derives from, >transcendental, mystical, or intuitive insight or higher >perception." This is the catch basin which caught me, at least. JHE This seems to be what she was trying to tell Maude Gonne in that quote I posted: the catch basin as a lot broader than the Dublin Theosophists were telling her. RI >It is such a paradox, really: just as the world seems to have >become ready, with its advances in cybernetic communications >etc., for a truly international organization of theosophically >inclined Truth-Seekers, the Theosophical Society puts the >finishing touches on a special definition which can only make it >look from every place on the globe even more so like a tired >old cult run for the egoistic benefit of a relatively small >number of not-quite-tired-enough old cultists who are still >bull-dogging the official reins with that special jaw-power >which only rigor mortis can impart. . . . JHE And I'm afraid that once rigor mortis has set in, it is far too late to bring it back. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 03:18:47 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Another Note on Symbology Message-ID: <331570e1.49095654@mail.earthlink.net> It is the time of the Spring Equinox again -- the time when the days are as long as the nights (Equinox or equal). This usually happens on the 21st of March, however can be at times on the 22nd. The ancients viewed this equinoctial point as be quite magical and marked it at the beginning of spring (though it was not spring all over the globe). Psychologically this point marked the return of the light of day having dominion over the soon to become the shorter time of the darkness of night (and mythically the return of the Solar Hero). Dawn becomes a special time because it announces the departure of night and ever-intensifying realization of Light. Dawn is sometimes called the "crack between the underworld and the overworld" -- a time when one can contemplate the multi-level forces of the Cosmos. The moment of dawn symbolically marked Rebirth -- when that which was old and dark is renewed to Youth and Light. The Spring Equinox does not really coincide Easter, however in the days or yor the meaning and the intent was the same. This Equinox symbolically portrays the earth in spring's regenerating force -- which is symbolic of the regeneration of the Inner Self through Christ Consciousness (or Solar Hero). The dark of night being the symbol of one descending into the unconsciousness of the underworld and returning to the greater Consciousness of the Light of day. This being the time that one can merge one's Consciousness with the Christ Consciousness. This was a very mystical and magical and intense devotional moment for the ancients -- a time for Initiations into higher levels of Consciousness. Times have changed but the same Cosmic Energies still abound to no end, and should be used wisely for the resultant Cosmic Christ Consciousness. Enjoy !!! --------------------------- Know what you do not know, and Know that you do not Know it - Know what you know, and Know that you Know it - And be able to Know the difference between the two. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j. [;-) http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "The reverse side also has a reverse side." -- Japanese Proverb From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:12:56 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <199702192320.SAA17601@cliff.cris.com> > From: RIhle@aol.com > Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy > > Richard Ihle writes--> > > This “definition-building” is a very subtle thing, and it has been developing > little by little for a long, long time. Only two things remain to be > accomplished, in my opinion: 1) a direct official statement that ~Theosophy~ > is simply a lexical synonym meaning “HPB-teachings,” and 2) a direct official > statement that these teachings occupy a special place above conventional > scrutiny and debate because they were the special supernatural dispensations > from the special supernatural Mahatmas. > In the relatively short time I've been in TSA, I've gotten the impression that the Mahatma letters were something under glass, like an antique in a museum. They are regularly taken out and studied, then put back, as if what was communicated in them, in their time, would always be valid. Forever. I always wonder if the Mahatmas, Masters, or whatever, could, should or would drop letters from my ceiling (or any one else's), what would they say TODAY? Would they make changes, corrections and see things in the light of the coming New Age? If truth, rolling like tumbleweed down that pathless land, is ever renewing itself and revealing itself in fresh form, why wouldn't They? -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:40:17 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: In message <199702192320.SAA17601@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes >I always wonder if the Mahatmas, Masters, >or whatever, could, should or would drop letters from my ceiling (or >any one else's), what would they say TODAY? "20% EXTRA dollops of WISDOM when you subscribe to our SPECIAL HIMALAYAS TOUR. Full details only $25 from our local arhat, ALAN BAIN (Cash only for tax purposes)." [Not really - AB] Alan :-) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:59:50 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: HPB & Tibetan Buddhism Message-ID: <19970220032107.AAA1390@JerrySchueler> Chuck, Right on. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:13:11 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <19970220032107.AAB1390@JerrySchueler> Richard, I agree with most of what you say, but my own experiences in the Pasadena TS are different. They have never limited Theosophy to HPB, but also have been willing to include the MLs, Judge, Tingley, G de Purucker, and Long as well. Grace's writings will probably be added to the list someday. :-) I have to agree with J H-E that Theosophy has always had teachings--this is exactly the problem outlined by HPB herself when she said as soon as esoteric ideas are written down, they become exoteric doctrines. An organization needs to stand for something that can be communicated in words to others. We have had many lively discussions here on theos-l about the definition of Theosophy. So far, we can't even agree on whether it has doctrines, let alone what those may be. I don't have an answer to this problem. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any one answer that will satisfy everyone. Jerry S. Member, TI ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:29:17 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: Re: [Links to resources] Message-ID: Does anyone know of any comparable links to the Russian site, which was posted on theos-l a little while back on theosophical resources, which are in English? Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 97 16:43:54 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: HPB in the TS Message-ID: <199702202143.QAA26066@leo.vsla.edu> Reading Richard's and JHE's characteristically insightful commentary on (respectively) TS dogmatism and TS history, I see a point of apparent conflict that suggests perhaps two different levels are being addressed. My own perception of this is murky, but maybe I can get the message across enough so someone else can pick it up and develop it. Richard sees the TS becoming progressively more insistent on the central role of Blavatskian Theosophy, and less sympathetic to alternative perspectives. More doctrinaire, if not more dogmatic. (Meaning perceiving the essence of theosophy as doctrinal rather than practical or mystical or whatever.) Jerry sees the TS as essentially not budging from the position it adopted during the Arundale years. Rather than seeing this as an opposition, I'd say both are right. Something has clearly been changing in the direction Richard is pointing out; something has clearly been locked in place in the way Jerry is describing. So which is which, and how do the two relate? In the 1980s my own perspective was Blavatskian, in that I saw HPB as normative for Theosophy and fervently wished that the Adyar TS would see things more as the Pasadena TS did in that regard. So it was really heartening to see the networking movement succeeding in encouraging the societies (ULT too) to find common ground and make peace to some extent. The SD Centenary, the HPB Centenary, the Parliament, and several other ventures showed Theosophists of various organizations breaking down barriers of mistrust and finding in HPB a means of agreeing on some foundation issues. I thought that was wonderful, and was delighted to play a small part in all that happened along those lines. But as the 1990s proceeded I saw the dark side of that development. The very HPB-focused quality that had looked so healthy in the Adyar TS began to seem like just a new way for the ES to say "We are the real Theosophists and you others don't count." Something had gone wrong. One Wheaton staff member told me he had mentioned the possibility of doing a program to honor Annie Besant, and the then-president said "Oh, once you really study Blavatsky you'll no longer be interested in Besant" (the gist, not the exact quote). We've definitely been seeing more HPB focus in the Adyar TS in the last ten years than I remember before, but it hasn't been a focus on the *real* HPB. (Who, as JHE says, was wide open to debating all sides of any issue including her own doctrines, and who didn't want the TS to become a society for true believers.) The focus has been on HPB as a link between the Masters and the TS, who therefore is the raison d'etre for the current leadership to keep on maintaining the status quo. Or something like that. What I'm suggesting is that the public stance has definitely changed, and Richard is right in observing that. The Blavatskian content of TPH magazines, TSA-sponsored public events, and such, is much greater in the 1990s than it was in the 1970s. On the other hand, the underlying consensus of those who rule the TS-Adyar, their real values and beliefs, appears not to have changed, as Jerry points out. The outer change seems to be just a way of adapting to prevent any inner change. Don't know what all this implies, or even if I'm right about it, but there's definitely a paradox in all this and I welcome anyone's thoughts on it. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 05:06:50 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Thoughts and Effects Message-ID: <3316dbb7.55137153@mail.earthlink.net> Every Thought Produces an Effect. Down through the ages, scientists have understood the action of the law of cause and effect as it applied to the physical sciences, but have not understood how the same law applied to the mental realm. Every time one thinks a thought, he is bringing the law of cause and effect into action. Around the turn of the century, William James told us that invisible thought has its visible counterpart in the world of visible expression. This explains the common expression 'thoughts are things." Each thought is a cause producing a corresponding effect. Since man has the power of choice, he has the right to choose which thoughts he will entertain in mind. Since he can choose the kind of thoughts that will produce undesirable effects in his life,he is then free to part company with his Creator and the perfect plan provided for him. Even God cannot assure him that he will have desirable effects, free agent that he is. Even God cannot compel man to enjoy the bliss he could enjoy were he to keep his thoughts God-centered. =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Only a giant can comprehend a giant's strength, a dwarf can at best have only a very vague and imperfect idea of giantly might. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j.}`-`{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity -- and I'm not sure about the former" - A. Einstein From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 18:07:42 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Three "Aims" of TS? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970221000742.00baf1ac@mail.eden.com> Someone just asked me what are the three aims of TS as published in the Messenger. I do not find my copy of the Messenger. If some one has the issue handy, can you post a msg and also copy it to me ASAP preferably tonight. Thanks. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:37:45 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <199702210104.UAA11929@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > > In message <199702192320.SAA17601@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" > writes > >I always wonder if the Mahatmas, Masters, > >or whatever, could, should or would drop letters from my ceiling (or > >any one else's), what would they say TODAY? > > "20% EXTRA dollops of WISDOM when you subscribe to our SPECIAL HIMALAYAS > TOUR. Full details only $25 from our local arhat, ALAN BAIN (Cash only > for tax purposes)." > > [Not really - AB] > More likely - "Visit at us at our web site!" From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 02:24:10 +0100 From: "Martin Euser" Subject: Re: [Links to resources] Message-ID: <199702210121.CAA29042@venus.euro.net> Ben wrote: >Does anyone know of any comparable links to the Russian site, which was >posted on theos-l a little while back on theosophical resources, which are in >English? Hi Ben, the posting you refer to contained some theosophical resources (but not only these). Some of the writings of Blavatsky, Judge & De Purucker can be found at the following site: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/Theosophy/Overview.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- In my theosophy-basics you will find URLs pointing to De Purucker (and others). ~The Key to theosophy~ and ~The Ocean of theosophy~ can be downloaded from spiritweb. There's a link to ~The voice of the silence~ too there. Have a look and enjoy. Martin ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:07:06 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: TS & ES Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970221050706.006d5d28@mail.eden.com> Following is one of the very rare public statements made by the Head of ES, thirty years ago. It may interest some of you. ======================================= SOME COMMENTS ON "THE T.S. AND THE E.S." N. SRI RAM In his article in The Canadian Theosophist (July-Aug. 1966) entitled "The T.S. and the E.S.", Mr. Dudley W. Barr has quoted the E.S. Pledge as formulated by H.P.B. and printed in the September 1888 issue of her magazine Lucifer, and says that in addition to the published version there was a pledge of obedience to the Outer Head, more precisely, "the orders of the Head of the Esoteric Section in all that concerns my relation with the Theosophical movement", changed by her a little later to "orders given through the Head of the Section in all that concerns my Theosophical duties and esoteric work, so far as my pledge to my Higher Self and my conscience sanction. "H.P.B. must have had her own reasons for offering such a pledge of obedience to the small group which constituted the Esoteric Section, as the Esoteric School was called in those days. But may I point out that the article is altogether wrong in assuming that that pledge of "absolute obedience as Mr. Barr terms it, continues up to the present time. Mr. Barr remarks that H.P.B. attempted to form a guru-chela relationship with the Esoteric Section members. That might have been so, but there is no warrant for the suggestion that such is the relationship now, or has been for many years in the past. As he has already mentioned me publicly as the present Outer Head of the E.S., let me quote what I said in my first address to the School, printed and sent to all its members, namely, that I consider myself "a student of the Wisdom, and not a spiritual guide". For I believe that anyone before he can teach must first be a learner, and in reality, each one must be his own guide in all matters of fundamental importance. I need not go over the past history of the E.S., as traced by Mr. Barr, but it is obvious that there have been in the past 75 years and more many changes and much. experimenting, even as there was for very many years with regard to the wording of the Objects of the Theosophical Society.There are members of the Theosophical Society in different countries, members also of the Esoteric School, believing in freedom of thought and individual understanding, who are persons as intelligent in every way and as devoted to the work of the Society as any other member. I venture to say that they would not have remained in the Esoteric School if the facts with regard to membership of the E.S. were anything like the picture painted in Mr. Barr's article. There is a reference to "privileges which the E.S. has assumed". I know of no privilege, except that in some places where the Society is active, the E.S. group is allowed to use one of the rooms for its meetings, and even this mainly for the reason that either the Lodge considers the E.S. group as a desirable tenant, devoted to the work and aims of the Society, or that members of the T.S. interested in the E.S. have given or give financial help in acquiring or maintaining the Lodge premises. With regard to the rooms at the T.S. headquarters at Adyar, used by the E.S., they were built out of moneys specially raised by E.S. members, and the E.S. has the use of those rooms with permission given by a resolution of the General Council of the Theosophical Society. This fact has been mentioned in The Theosophist. I am not aware of any "power" which the E.S. or members of the E.S. as such, exercise or can exercise in the T.S., nor has the E.S. any "position" in the Society, except that it is a body, all of whose members are members of the Theosophical Society, a body which has been in existence since H.P.B.'s days, whose aims in no way conflict with the objectives of the Society, and whose methods of work cannot possibly hinder the Society's work. Any members of the T.S. who desire to do so can form a class or group for special studies, and attempt to live a particular kind of life according to certain rules, and that is the description which best applies to the Esoteric School. It is no longer called the Esoteric Section, because it is a body which is completely independent of the T.S., although as I have pointed out, it has been treated with consideration by Lodges of the Society. It carries on its work silently, without fuss or propaganda, without levying any fees or attempting to attract members or seeking success in the ordinary sense. Mr. Barr's article quotes the official statement issued by Colonel Olcott, which stated that the E.S. "has no official or corporate connection with the T.S., save in the person of the President-Founder". But he had no administrative (or any other) control over the Esoteric Section, because it was concerned with teachings, and not with any other matter. Members of the T.S. who belong also to the E.S. are a very small minority, less than one-tenth of the Society as a whole, and in many of the Sections or cities the membership is far below even one-tenth. In Toronto, the Headquarters of the Canadian Section, the percentage is probably about one-sixtieth. Therefore, it is not really possible for the E.S. members to gain any control, let alone "considerable control over the T.S." as is stated in the article. So, as I see the whole position, there is nothing for the E.S. to "give up", because it has no "powers", no "privileges" and no "status" within the Society, except the consideration that may be given voluntarily by the T.S. members in the form of certain facilities for the E.S. work, knowing the general character of that body. If it did have any "power", privilege" or "position", I would be the first to propose that it should give up all that completely, without any reservation. [excepted from Canadian Theosophist, Nov-Dec 1966] ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:08:20 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: An article on ES Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970221050820.006e5374@mail.eden.com> THE ESOTERIC SCHOOL Members will welcome the opportunity to study the article in this issue by our President, Mr. N. Sri Ram, on the Esoteric School. A copy of my article "The T.S. and the E.S." had been given to Mr. Sri Ram at Salzburg with a request for a frank criticism of it. I told Mr. Sri Ram that if any of the information in the article was incorrect, or if any of the inferences drawn from the facts as I understood them were not correct, we would be very glad to draw attention to these in the next issue of the 'magazine. It is gratifying to learn that the pledge of obedience is no longer required of E.S. members. This was in existence for many years and had far-reaching effects on the policies of the Society; it was one of the strong objections to the E.S. Some of our Canadian members have been in the Society for many years and have personal knowledge of the conditions described in Candles in the Sun some of which came about through the hidden power of the E.S. There will doubtless be more correspondence in the magazine on the subject of the E.S., and, if so, I hope that this will result in a clarification of ideas for both T.S. and E.S. members alike on such matters as the function of the E.S., the reasons for its continued existence, its aims and objects, qualifications for joining, selection of members and other matters not clear in our minds. The secrecy surrounding the E.S. and the implied possession of an "esoteric" knowledge not available to non-members have helped to create the questioning doubt with which members regard the E.S. This is not confined to Canada, for members in other countries share our views. It is one of our organizational problems-and it seems to me that one way of solving it would be to give all members of the Society full and open information regarding the E.S. and its relationship to the general membership of the Society. In the report on the Salzburg Congress in the last issue of the magazine, the growing maturity of the Society was mentioned. This was most encouraging and augured well for the future of the Society. One bad to be at Salzburg and listen teethe lectures and take part in the discussions to feel the new questing spirit and to realize what a significant change had occurred in the past thirty years. Apparently changes have also occurred in the E.S. organization. Mr. Sri Ram's emphasis on independence of thought, the self-responsibility of members to exercise their own judgment, applies to all members, T.S. and E.S. alike. The continuation of the E.S. organization depends upon the E.S. members, as the T.S. members have no control over it. We must rely upon the unquestioned good faith of these members to decide whether in the interest of the Society this separateÄand separating-organization should continue in existence. -- D.W.Barr PS: Mr. Sri Ram's article is in posted as a separate message. [excerpted from the Canadian Theosophist, Nov-Dec 1966] From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 01:20:29 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: HPB in the TS Message-ID: <9702210920.AA31344@toto.csustan.edu> KPJ >Reading Richard's and JHE's characteristically insightful >commentary on (respectively) TS dogmatism and TS history, I see >a point of apparent conflict that suggests perhaps two different >levels are being addressed. My own perception of this is murky, >but maybe I can get the message across enough so someone else >can pick it up and develop it. JHE Yes, I sensed this two levels of communication too, and felt that they are creating disagreements that are only apparent. Rather, I think we are both saying much the same thing from different view points. Therefore I believe the apparent differences are created by the differences in our approaches. Mine is historical and lexical, but my lexieology is from sources outside of the TS, or interpreted as if I were an informed outsider. I believe Richard is looking at the TS from the point of view of an informed member, and is responding to and giving a critical interpretation to TS rhetoric as a member who is aware of its propagandistic and hypocritical elements. What Richard might see as hypocrisy, I see as a new stamping from a very old and distorted cast that should have been discarded long ago. I think our views are two designations for the same thing. KPJ >Richard sees the TS becoming progressively more insistent on >the central role of Blavatskian Theosophy, and less sympathetic >to alternative perspectives. More doctrinaire, if not more >dogmatic. (Meaning perceiving the essence of theosophy as >doctrinal rather than practical or mystical or whatever.) >Jerry sees the TS as essentially not budging from the position >it adopted during the Arundale years. Rather than seeing this >as an opposition, I'd say both are right. Something has >clearly been changing in the direction Richard is pointing out; >something has clearly been locked in place in the way Jerry is >describing. So which is which, and how do the two relate? JHE Yes, I agree that there has been more rhetoric about Blavatsky, but I think it has less to do with a new emphases upon Blavatsky, and more with a de-emphases upon Leadbeater (thanks to Tillett's exposure), and having no one else to fall back on. But the Blavatsky rhetoric concerns the neo-Theosophical and the mythical Blavatsky, not the historical. I think that if you go back and look at the editorials from the Arundale years (1935-45), you will find that Blavatsky's name was invoked and used in the same way then. KPJ >In the 1980s my own perspective was Blavatskian, in that I saw >HPB as normative for Theosophy and fervently wished that the >Adyar TS would see things more as the Pasadena TS did in that >regard. So it was really heartening to see the networking >movement succeeding in encouraging the societies (ULT too) to >find common ground and make peace to some extent. The SD >Centenary, the HPB Centenary, the Parliament, and several other >ventures showed Theosophists of various organizations breaking >down barriers of mistrust and finding in HPB a means of >agreeing on some foundation issues. I thought that was >wonderful, and was delighted to play a small part in all that >happened along those lines. JHE Yes, 1984 was a turning point with the Networking conference, and I think it did much more to change policies in Pasadena and ULT then it did for the Adyar TS. However, I think there was a significant change of consciousness among the Adyar membership. There are two other events that I think are very relevant to the fate of the Networking movement that I think also needs to be considered: 1. The coming and going of 1975 without the appearance of a new teacher; 2. the 1982 publication of Tillett's book. Expectations and spirits were high as 1975 approached, but as the year came and whent, the mood slowly started turning to cynicism among many. Dora became President in a still optimistic 1975 and tried to give a lot of support to the Lodges and promote the Quest book line. The American Theosophist was probably at its best during those years. But it was all too little too late, I think. Also, after the publication of Tillett's book, the TS quietly began to de-emphasize Leadbeater. I think you told me once that when you went to Adyar after Tillett had published his book, you found that the policy was that "Leadbeater doesn't exist, and if he did, there is nothing wrong with him." I think that was an excellent assessment of the times. So, considering the unwanted (by Adyar) campaign for networking with other Societies, the disappointment of 1975, and the exposure of Leadbeater, I think the TS has responded by digging in and getting tougher where they can get away with it. KPJ >But as the 1990s proceeded I saw the dark side of that >development. The very HPB-focused quality that had looked so >healthy in the Adyar TS began to seem like just a new way for >the ES to say "We are the real Theosophists and you others >don't count." Something had gone wrong. One Wheaton staff >member told me he had mentioned the possibility of doing a >program to honor Annie Besant, and the then-president said "Oh, >once you really study Blavatsky you'll no longer be interested >in Besant" (the gist, not the exact quote). We've definitely >been seeing more HPB focus in the Adyar TS in the last ten >years than I remember before, but it hasn't been a focus on the >*real* HPB. (Who, as JHE says, was wide open to debating all >sides of any issue including her own doctrines, and who didn't >want the TS to become a society for true believers.) The focus >has been on HPB as a link between the Masters and the TS, who >therefore is the raison d'etre for the current leadership to >keep on maintaining the status quo. Or something like that. JHE My assessment too. KPJ >What I'm suggesting is that the public stance has definitely >changed, and Richard is right in observing that. The >Blavatskian content of TPH magazines, TSA-sponsored public >events, and such, is much greater in the 1990s than it was in >the 1970s. On the other hand, the underlying consensus of >those who rule the TS-Adyar, their real values and beliefs, >appears not to have changed, as Jerry points out. The outer >change seems to be just a way of adapting to prevent any inner >change. JHE Yes, I think they are just digging in deeper. But another factor is that the old guard is dying off. Last time I was at Krotona, I think I might have walked by been more empty residences than occupied ones on that hill. In another ten years, everyone from the old ruling class should be gone to their Theosophical devachan, and they don't seem to be passing on the torch to the younger members. What will happen in ten years? KPJ >Don't know what all this implies, or even if I'm right about >it, but there's definitely a paradox in all this and I welcome >anyone's thoughts on it. JHE There's mine. I'll be in Monterey for the weekend, but will pick up on this discussion when I return Monday. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 07:45:13 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Access to TSA members Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970221134513.006f58f0@mail.eden.com> Everyone is fully aware of the "sacred" and "secret" membership list of TSA. Keeping the membership list out of access of members is, it appears, an old game played not only by TSA but very many organizations around the country. A few days ago I noticed that the Texas Non Profit Corporations act was recently changed to specifically provide member access and copying of the membership list by any voting members. The organization is also explicitly required to provide copies at a reasonable copying cost to any member requesting it. These are very explicitly spelt out with no ambiguity whatsoever. I am sure these changes were put in as a result of one or more organizations in Texas trying to prevent member access and copying membership list. It appears that we need to look forward to changes in Illinois law as well. I will not be surprised to see such explicit requirement being made part of non profit corporations act in all 50 states. We are moving into next century and changes are going to take place which will change organization. Is there anyone out in Illinois who has access to a law library who can check the latest in Illinois Non Profit Corporation act on this issue? Once we see such a change, TSA will have no grounds for keeping the list as "secret". MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 07:53:43 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Astro Info Message-ID: <199702211351.IAA29291@cliff.cris.com> Ben >PS. Does anyone have the astrological chart details for: >a) when Blavatsky started TSA in New York >b) when AB temporarily closed down ES in 1925 >Any info would be much appreciated. The Theosophical Society November 17, 1875 8:00 PM EST New York, NY Long 73W59.5 Lat 40N45 I don't have the b) info at this time. Perhaps JHE would be able to supply us the date and time? -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:57:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Internet Usage Survey Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970221145709.006fe14c@mail.eden.com> Here is something I picked on CNN web. MKR =========================== Survey: Internet use surging February 21, 1997 Web posted at: 1:30 a.m. EST CNN) -- A new survey finds the number of people who use the Internet appears to be growing by great leaps. he market research firm IntelliQuest Information Group found that 47 million people in the United States were online during the fourth quarter of 1996. That's 12 million more than were online in the first quarter -- a 34 percent increase. Most people use the Internet from home, according to the survey. More than 22 million access the 'Net from their home computers; 13.3 million do so from work, and 6.8 million log on from school. The fastest growing group of users are those between the ages of 25 and 34, the survey found. That group represents 30 percent of online users. The survey also found that the Internet gender gap is shrinking. Females now make up 45 percentof those who go online. And most people use their computers to send and receive e-mail, and to get information about their hobbies or products and services. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:59:25 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: "Free" Internet in Apartments Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970221145925.006feb90@mail.eden.com> Yesterday when I was driving by an apartment complex, I noticed a large banner announcing Free Internet for all residents. Like free cable TV hookup, now it is Free Internet access. A very interesting marketing development. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 97 11:28:11 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: A Better World? Message-ID: <199702211628.LAA04193@leo.vsla.edu> According to Edgar Cayce, these times are the real dawning of the Age of Aquarius. What's Aquarius associated with? Freedom of thought; science and technology; egalitarianism; humanitarianism. A new book my library just received summarizes some of the advances of the last several decades, and I'd like to share the positive trends noted in "The balance sheet of human development-- developing countries" (Note that these statistics DO NOT include the industrialized world): Life expectancy increased by a third between 1960 and 1992; 30 countries have achieved a life expectancy of more than 70 years. Over the past three decades, the population with access to safe water almost doubled, from 36% to 70%. Net enrollment at the primary level increased by nearly two-thirds during the past 30 years, from 48% in 1960 to 77% in 1991. Despite rapid population growth, per capita food production rose more than 20% during the past decade. During the past decade, both agriculture and industry expanded at an annual rate of more than 3% in developing countries. The combined primary and secondary enrollment of girls increased from 38% to 68% during the past two decades. During the past two decades, fertility rates declined by more than a third. In 1960-82, infant mortality was more than halved, from 149 per thousand live births to 70. During the past two decades, the lives of about three million children were saved every year through the extension of basic immunization. More than two thirds of the population in developing countries live under rerlatively pluralistic and democratic regimes. There are plenty of negatives reported too, but the above suffices to give hope that humanity is indeed moving in an Aquarian direction. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 09:55:07 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <199702211755.JAA25271@palrel1.hp.com> Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote > I think Blavatsky's intention for the Organizational exposition of Theosophy > is well outlined in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY. Here she makes it very clear that > the Theosophical Society has teachings (not dogmas). Yes. There is nothing wrong with an identity, a focus. Teachings provide this, but as you say, they are not intended to be dogmas. [snip] > Though, in London, most members of the TS were drawn into it because of > Blavatsky. A.P. Sinnett complained of this. He had a competing Lodge in > London where he had his own teachings and claimed to be in contact with the > Masters through a medium who he identifies as "Mary." An aside ... This is why I am a little wary of a few of Sinnetts letters which he claims come from the Masters - especially the later ones. Like K. Paul Johnson, I think we should keep our eyes open when reading things attributed to the Masters and I applaud his scholarship. Unlike Paul, I do happen to believe M, KH et al. really existed. [snip] > I've known many old time Theosophists who never read Blavatsky. > In fact, during the 20's and 30's members were discouraged from > doing so, and encouraged to read the newer material published by > Besant and Leadbeater. I agree that HPB never wanted her books > to become Theosophical Bibles, but I don't think the TS ever > wanted this either. Rather, I believe that the vast majority of > TS members are ignorant of HPB's writings, and I would say the > majority of the management too. Astonishing, but I'd believe it. There seems to be a movement these days away from reading the classics in a field. When I studied Jung, for instance, most of my class mates read from Jungians, not Jung. I have nothing against reading Jungians. Certainly depth psychology did not stop with Jung, but why disregard the luminaries that brought the first and often most vital impulse in a new field? [snip] > I think the TS has long blaimed and misrepresented the "Back to > Blavatsky" rhetoric as a cause of their problems. They blame the > "Back to Blavskyites" as the cause of disruption in the TS. But > the "Back to Blavatsky" argument as posed by H.N Stokes in 1918 > was not a plea to banish all but Blavatskian Theosophy, but to > banish the growing dogma in the Society--to go back to the > undogmatic days of Blavatsky. Well said. One should look often at the spirit brought by pioneers, but not get stuck on an ossified body left by them. Pioneers in any field carried something vital. This vital thing was not always the doctrines left behind, but I think if a study of their works is done rightly, it enhances the growth and evolution of what they brought. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 97 15:30:04 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Sri Ram's protestations Message-ID: <199702212030.PAA25950@leo.vsla.edu> Thanks to Doss for posting the exchange from the Canadian Theosophist about the ES. It's the only public discussion of the matter I have seen in such a forum. While it is nice to know that obedience is no longer an official requirement, and that the OH is no longer considered a spiritual teacher, that doesn't allay concern about an insidious continuation of past attitudes. I think ES members are indeed still likely to see the OH as a spiritual teacher to whom obedience is owed. Striking indeed was the explicit statement that less than 10% of the total membership of the TS belongs to the ES. What would be even more striking is a statement of the number of national section presidents (or general secretaries) are ES members. That's probably more like 90%. Which would belie the claim that the ES does not seek to influence or control the TS. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:40:57 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <199702212241.OAA24283@palrel1.hp.com> "Ann E. Bermingham" wrote: > In the relatively short time I've been in TSA, I've gotten the impression that > the Mahatma letters were something under glass, like an antique in a > museum. They are regularly taken out and studied, then put back, as if > what was communicated in them, in their time, would always be valid. > Forever. > I always wonder if the Mahatmas, Masters, or whatever, could, should or > would drop letters from my ceiling (or any one else's), what would they say > TODAY? Would they make changes, corrections and see things in the light of > the coming New Age? If truth, rolling like tumbleweed down that pathless > land, is ever renewing itself and revealing itself in fresh form, why > wouldn't They? Good point. An aside on the emphasis in some circles on the Masters. I like Gene Cosgrove's statement in "The High Walk of Discipleship": "To those who ask to be placed in contact with the Masters, I say that the emphasis in discipleship is more on mastering than Masters." Such, I'm sure, was/is Their attitude as well. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:00:16 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Access to TSA members Message-ID: <199702212257.RAA07498@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > > Everyone is fully aware of the "sacred" and "secret" membership list of TSA. > > Keeping the membership list out of access of members is, it appears, an old > game played not only by TSA but very many organizations around the country. > > A few days ago I noticed that the Texas Non Profit Corporations act was > recently changed to specifically provide member access and copying of the > membership list by any voting members. The organization is also explicitly > required to provide copies at a reasonable copying cost to any member > requesting it. These are very explicitly spelt out with no ambiguity > whatsoever. I am sure these changes were put in as a result of one or more > organizations in Texas trying to prevent member access and copying > membership list. > > It appears that we need to look forward to changes in Illinois law as well. > I will not be surprised to see such explicit requirement being made part of > non profit corporations act in all 50 states. > > We are moving into next century and changes are going to take place which > will change organization. > > Is there anyone out in Illinois who has access to a law library who can > check the latest in Illinois Non Profit Corporation act on this issue? Once > we see such a change, TSA will have no grounds for keeping the list as "secret". > It's my understanding that some the state's laws regarding mailing lists of non-profit organizations have to do with the selling of those lists. For instance, XYZ Mahatmas Ltd. could have a large mailing list that would then be sold to various companies selling massage oil, incense, New Age magazines and books. Then any voluminious number of their catalogs would show up in your mailbox. If one is going to make a law releasing mailing lists to the general public, then there is going to be a danger of commercial abuse. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 18:12:30 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Access to TSA members Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970222001230.006e0778@mail.eden.com> At 06:02 PM 2/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> Everyone is fully aware of the "sacred" and "secret" membership list of TSA. >> >> Keeping the membership list out of access of members is, it appears, an old >> game played not only by TSA but very many organizations around the country. >> >> A few days ago I noticed that the Texas Non Profit Corporations act was >> recently changed to specifically provide member access and copying of the >> membership list by any voting members. The organization is also explicitly >> required to provide copies at a reasonable copying cost to any member >> requesting it. These are very explicitly spelt out with no ambiguity >> whatsoever. I am sure these changes were put in as a result of one or more >> organizations in Texas trying to prevent member access and copying >> membership list. >> >> It appears that we need to look forward to changes in Illinois law as well. >> I will not be surprised to see such explicit requirement being made part of >> non profit corporations act in all 50 states. >> >> We are moving into next century and changes are going to take place which >> will change organization. >> >> Is there anyone out in Illinois who has access to a law library who can >> check the latest in Illinois Non Profit Corporation act on this issue? Once >> we see such a change, TSA will have no grounds for keeping the list as "secret". >> >It's my understanding that some the state's laws regarding mailing lists of >non-profit organizations have to do with the selling of those lists. For >instance, XYZ Mahatmas Ltd. could have a large mailing list that would >then be sold to various companies selling massage oil, incense, New Age >magazines and books. Then any voluminious number of their catalogs >would show up in your mailbox. > >If one is going to make a law releasing mailing lists to the general public, >then there is going to be a danger of commercial abuse. > >-AEB > The practical issue is access by members -- not public -- to the membership list. The present problem is that organizations have taken the stand that the membership list is secret except for those purposes the Board of Directors think it can be used. The current interpretation of the secrecy is counter productive and sometimes ridiculous. In addition, any member or a candidate cannot get across their viewpoint to the membership. The only means of communication is via AT, The Messenger and any direct mailing that BOD sends to members. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:19:28 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <970221191927_1548359252@emout02.mail.aol.com> Ann, In a message dated 97-02-20 20:07:55 EST, you write: >> >More likely - "Visit at us at our web site!" > > Actually, what they really say is, "DK! Will you get out of Chuck's linen closet?" Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:38:34 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <970221193833_1382235752@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-21 00:08:10 EST, you write: > So, as I see the whole position, there is nothing for the E.S. to "give >up", because it has no "powers", no "privileges" and no "status" within the >Society, except the consideration that may be given voluntarily by the T.S. >members in the form of certain facilities for the E.S. work, knowing the >general character of that body. If it did have any "power", privilege" or >"position", I would be the first to propose that it should give up all that >completely, without any reservation. And Sri Ram's nose got sooooooo long after writing this that he had to be careful not to get it caught in doors. Anyway, all this has moved me to song, so if any of you remember the tune to "Mama don't allow" feel free to join in. The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. We don't care what the ES don't allow, We're chomp them burgers anyhow. The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. The ES don't allow no liquor around here. The ES don't allow no liquor around here. We don't care what the ES don't allow, We'll guzzle that beer anyhow. The ES don't allow no liquor around here. The ES don't allow no psychic stuff round here. The ES don't allow no psychic stuff round here. We don't care what the ES don't allow, We'll conjure demons anyhow, The ES don't allow no psychic stuff round here. The ES don't allow no sex type stuff round here. The ES don't allow no sex type stuff round here. We don't care what the ES don't allow, We'll make that whoopee anyhow. The ES don't allow no sex type stuff round here. The ES is full of BS around here. The ES is full of BS around here. We don't care what the ES don't allow, It's full of you know what anyhow, The ES is full of BS around here. Now, didn't that feel good. We may sing it at convention at four pm the first afternoon. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 20:45:57 EST From: jmeier@microfone.net (Jim Meier) Subject: Full Moon in Pisces Message-ID: <199702220145.2901500@microfone.net> The full moon occurs this Saturday in Pisces. Pisces is the twelfth sign, and the twelfth labor of Hercules was the capturing of the cattle of Geryon. Geryon was a monster with three bodies, who lived on the far island Erytheia. He kept there unlawfully a herd of dark red cattle, guarded also by a two-headed dog and watched over by the shepherd Eurytion. Hercules began this labor with prayer to Helius, the god of fire in the Sun. A golden chalice was materialized before him, and Hercules travelled in the safety of this golden chalice across the rough seas to Erytheia. Once there, he slew the two-headed dog that had immediately come at him, but he spared the life of the shephard. Driving the cattle before him, Hercules left the island but soon perceived that the monster Geryon was chasing him, intent on retaking the herd; Hercules then slew Geryon "with a arrow which burned the air, and flew so forcefully that it pierced all three bodies together." Hercules continued on then, returning the cattle to their rightful home. The first ten labours of Hercules depict individual steps along the Zodiac, as the disciple learns by experience the necessary lessons of the Path. In Capricorn the individual lessons cease and the emphasis shifts to a larger field of service: the initiate Hercules serves in Aquarius by diverting the cleansing waters through the accumulated filth of the ages, and in Pisces the Saviour Hercules works to redeem the masses. There is a great deal of symbolism in this last labor: the "three-bodied monster" seems clear enough, as the physical/emotional/lower mental aspect which guards over the "animal herd," the lower nature. The magical chalice from Helius is the Grail, and in some versions of the story Hercules not only travels to Erytheia in the golden cup but delivers the herd back in it as well. In killing the two-headed dog, Hercules overcomes the problem of duality, which is symbolized also in the astrological symbol of Pisces as the two fishes bound together by a ribbon. Hercules (and all men on the spiritual Path) travel the "reversed Wheel" of the Zodiac. For the present majority, the wheel revolves clockwise and in the greater cycle we are transiting now from "the age of Pisces" of the last 2,000 years or so to the incoming energies of Aquarius. Most of us have not yet solved the problem of duality -- of dual appearance -- and so the greater lessons of Pisces are not easy for us to relate to. The lessons of Pisces are of idealism and sacrifice, a willingness of spirit to embody matter for the purposes of redemption. In the greater scheme, that's the world Saviour work of a Buddha or a Christ. In our lesser fields, we can each apply the available energies of Pisces to redeem aspects of the "dark herd" of our lower natures and thereby better represent the purpose of the Soul or Self. ************ The full moon in Pisces occurs Saturday morning (Feb 22) at 05:28am, EST USA (10:28am GMT); a group meditation will be held on the theme of Letting in the Light. At the time of each full moon Festival, energy qualified by the constellation influencing that period flows into the range of human awareness, thereby establishing the divine attributes in the consciousness of humanity. This spiritual inflow can be channelled in meditation into the minds and hearts of all people, and everyone is invited to participate in the group effort. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 04:46:07 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: Subject: Re: Hey From: Sorcia Message-ID: <33192879.8417150@mail.earthlink.net> What The Bible Actually Is: Actually, the Bible is the story of your life and my life. It is the unfolding of the spiritual life of every man. As one grows in spiritual perception, he grows into a deeper understanding of the Bible. Each time he reads it, it contains a new and richer meaning. It is as if the pages come to life. What was once a gory battle becomes an allegory, giving the reader an insight into his own spiritual unfoldment. This is the Christ, God in us, Spirit individualized in and through man. In the Old Testament, God in man is called Jehovah God; in the New Testament, the Christ. God and I in space alone And nobody else in view. "And where are the people, O Lord?" I said. "The earth below and the sky o'erhead And the dead whom once I knew?" "That was a dream," God smiled and said, "A dream that seemed to be true, There were no people, living or dead, There was no earth and no sky o'erhead There was only myself-and you." -Ella Wheeler Wilcox, "Illusion" The Bible Is an Oriental Writing. As we said before, the Oriental writing in the Bible is expressed in the terminology of the Orient. The Eastern mind is quite attuned to the idea of a spiritual truth being expressed as allegory or parable. The result is that on the surface you may seem to have a picture created, a moral rule of conduct expressed, or the adventures of a great people typified through battles, famines, romance, violence and intrigue; but, deep down underneath, there is more satisfying meaning, a mystical, spiritual meaning that is of great help to the individual today and that is what everyone is seeking. When you discover this inner meaning, the Bible is found to be, in Truth, THE WORD OF GOD, the Wisdom of the Infinite and this is the reason that the Bible lives on forever. The three keys which I will give you provide a secret code such as would be used by an underground movement to protect these valuable teachings from the crude touch of those who would not know or care that they be preserved. Through the use of figurative language another goal is accomplished. The Bible speaks to each one at his own level of awareness, so that, year after year as his understanding increases, he discovers richer and richer meanings, personal to him at that very moment of awareness. ARE YOU READY FOR THE KEYS? --------------------------- Know what you do not know, and Know that you do not Know it - Know what you know, and Know that you Know it - And be able to Know the difference between the two. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j. [;-) http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "The reverse side also has a reverse side." -- Japanese Proverb From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 20:31:45 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: WHAT'S IN A NAME? Message-ID: <33180601.23364190@mail.earthlink.net> WHAT'S IN A NAME? The Three Keys: 1. The hidden meaning found in proper names 2. The hidden meaning found in certain key words 3. The hidden meaning found in certain key numbers The First Key: Now, I am going to place in your hands three keys that will open doors that have heretofore remained locked to you. The first "key" is to be found in the meanings of proper names in the Bible. Name means nature in the Bible. "In His name" means according to His nature. Every Hebrew proper name, whether of a person or a place, will reveal to you a state of consciousness. You will find that as the state of consciousness changes in the story, the person's name will change. Thus, Abram becomes Abraham, Sarai becomes Sarah, Saul becomes Paul, etc. They cannot keep their names once their nature or character has changed because these proper names all have a deeper meaning than just a name. Names Are States of Consciousness. One day, while looking in the index of my large reference Bible, King James Version, I noticed that following each and every Hebrew name there was, in parenthesis, an interpretation of that name. Each one was a state of consciousness or a description of an invisible quality. With high excitement, I began to reread some of the familiar Bible stories. To my great interest, I found that the battles were all between certain states of consciousness where the divine faculties in man made war with the human materialistic concepts of man. I read on avidly, half afraid that some of the names would spoil my theory. They never did. Like the names of the places in The Pilgrims Progress, they gave a greater meaning, a meaning that made more sense. Each time the story proved out. No character was miscast. Each served a purpose in a story of consciousness leading up to the birth of the Christ, the awareness of the Divine Son-ship. Thus translation of names becomes the first KEY in unlocking the mystery of the Bible. Reread the Bible in the light of the meaning of proper names alone and a vast new import will be apparent. The Nature of God -- So when we are talking about a name, we are talking about the nature of the person or thing spoken about. We are talking about a total concept that is known and understood. As you open your mind to receive spiritual unfoldment, you will find that the nature of God, about which thousands and thousands of volumes have been written. When you read God, you call to mind what God has come to mean to you. Thus every time we speak of 'the name of God,' we are speaking of 'the nature of God.' Look up some of the references to 'name' with the aid of your concordance and you will feel almost as if you had discovered a secret code giving you access to buried treasure. Take Exodus 3:15 where we find the Lord saying to Moses, "this is my name forever..." and read it 'this is my nature forever; take Psalms 9:10, "they that know thy name [nature]...trust in thee,,,"; and Psalms 111:9, "holy and reverend is his name [nature]", and Isaiah 42:8, "I am the Lord [law]: that is my name [nature] of ... our God..." This is only a beginning, but it will give you an idea of how to use the second Key. Name Means Nature. If the Bible is complicated to us, it is because we don't know the Hebrew language. We just don't know what the Scriptures are sometimes talking about. This is what we miss when we try to make these stories into historical documents. When we use the true names, signifying natures, then real meaning is revealed to us. The stories are not just about ancient peoples, but stories of direct meaning for each one of us. Take any of the Bible genealogies and trace them back, taking each name and looking up its Hebrew meaning. By putting in the meaning rather than the names, you will find that the genealogies are an unfoldment of ideas. Each Place Is a Place in Consciousness. Egypt signifies 'bondage'; Eden, 'delight or bliss'; Bethel stands for the 'house of God, consciousness of the all Good'; the tower of Babel or Babylon, as you can guess, means 'confusion'. The people who dwell in these lands represent the kind of consciousness from which they originate; their children are always thoughts springing from the parent thought. To the Hebrew storyteller, each story had a deeper meaning. Do you begin to see 'WHAT'S IN A NAME?' ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What if you slept, and what if in your sleep you dreamed, and what if in your dream you went to heaven and there you plucked a strange and beautiful flower, and what if when you awoke you had the flower in your hand ? What then ? Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j. {:-) http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "Matter is energy & energy is Light -- therefore we are Light Beings." A. Einstein From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:29:36 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Hey From: Sorcia Message-ID: <970221192936_1315632991@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-20 23:56:00 EST, you write: > a moral rule of conduct >expressed, or the adventures of a great people typified through battles, >famines, romance, violence and intrigue; but, deep down underneath, there is >more satisfying meaning, a mystical, spiritual meaning that is of great help >to >the individual today and that is what everyone is seeking. YOWZZA!!!!!! Does that mean I can go into the land of Midian and kill everything that moves again? When are people going to realize that while the Bible is a fun book (try reading Revelation after dropping some good acid) it has about as much spiritual value as the warnings on the back of a Lysol can. Besides, in case you all forgot out there, crucifiction HURTS. Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 20:14:26 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970222021426.00bb1a90@mail.eden.com> At 07:45 PM 2/21/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-02-21 00:08:10 EST, you write: > >> So, as I see the whole position, there is nothing for the E.S. to "give >>up", because it has no "powers", no "privileges" and no "status" within the >>Society, except the consideration that may be given voluntarily by the T.S. >>members in the form of certain facilities for the E.S. work, knowing the >>general character of that body. If it did have any "power", privilege" or >>"position", I would be the first to propose that it should give up all that >>completely, without any reservation. > >And Sri Ram's nose got sooooooo long after writing this that he had to be >careful not to get it caught in doors. > >Anyway, all this has moved me to song, so if any of you remember the tune to >"Mama don't allow" feel free to join in. > >The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. >The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. >We don't care what the ES don't allow, >We're chomp them burgers anyhow. >The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. > >The ES don't allow no liquor around here. >The ES don't allow no liquor around here. >We don't care what the ES don't allow, >We'll guzzle that beer anyhow. >The ES don't allow no liquor around here. > >The ES don't allow no psychic stuff round here. >The ES don't allow no psychic stuff round here. >We don't care what the ES don't allow, >We'll conjure demons anyhow, >The ES don't allow no psychic stuff round here. > >The ES don't allow no sex type stuff round here. >The ES don't allow no sex type stuff round here. >We don't care what the ES don't allow, >We'll make that whoopee anyhow. >The ES don't allow no sex type stuff round here. > >The ES is full of BS around here. >The ES is full of BS around here. >We don't care what the ES don't allow, >It's full of you know what anyhow, >The ES is full of BS around here. > > >Now, didn't that feel good. We may sing it at convention at four pm the >first afternoon. > >Chuck the Heretic > I did not know we had good poets! MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 22:22:29 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Everything to do with t/Theosophy Message-ID: <199702220622.WAA18621@proxy2.ba.best.com> Have a great weekend, folks, and a happy new year of the ox! **************************** Mrs Smith wanted her third grade class to play a game where one student starts a drawing on the board and one by one others add to it. She thinks for a moment, and decides not to start with Johnny, because he is so naughty and always has some "unusual" picture in mind. So she starts with Jane. Jane: "This is our house." /\ / \ / \ / \ | | | | | | | | The teacher say "Good, Jane!" and asks Peter to draw next: Peter: "This is the door to our house." /\ / \ / \ / \ | | | _ | | | | | | |_| | The teacher says "Very good, Peter" and calls Mary. Mary: "This is our house's roof." /\ /UU\ / \ / \ | | | _ | | | | | | |_| | The teacher says "Very nice, Mary" and calls on Stevie. Stevie: "And this is the sun over our house." \|/ -O- /|\ /\ /UU\ / \ / \ | | | _ | | | | | | |_| | The teacher says "very nice, Stevie" and thinks, there is not much damage that Johnny can do with this picture and asks Johnny to come to the board. Johnny: "And this is my dad, trying to pick up the soap that he dropped in the shower." ______ / \ / \|/ \ / -O- \ | /|\ | | /\ | | /UU\ | | / \ | | / \ | | | | | | | _ | | _| | | | | |_ (___| |_| |___) From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 02:14:38 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: An interesting piece Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970222081438.00675580@mail.eden.com> Here is something that is interesting I read in a local newspaper. MKR ================== A poster on my Express-News Online forum who once worked in church called churches "among the most stressful places to work. People in congregations are human beings. We talk about having a 'spiritual life' and a 'personal life' and a 'business life' and a 'social life' and a 'family life' and so on. We think of these as little compartments. This is why people can sit in Mass on Sunday morning and then sue the hell out each other on Monday. "Yes, churches and cities ought not be suing each other, but it's just another paradox in a world full of them." Since there are legitimate concerns on both sides of the Boerne church issue e-mailed a Alaskan correspondent after the case, "they're justified in holding for the courts to decide. Let them. And then get on with life instead of enriching the lawyers." There's something worth praying for... From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 19:46:31 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Internet Usage Survey Message-ID: <199702221341.IAA17199@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > > Here is something I picked on CNN web. > =========================== > > Survey: Internet use > surging > > February 21, 1997 > Web posted at: 1:30 a.m. EST > > CNN) -- A new survey finds the > number of people who use the > Internet appears to be growing by > great leaps. > The front page of the Chicago Sun-Times announced that the phone company, Ameritech, was having trouble delivering service to the western suburbs because there were so many people subscribiing to AOL and staying on the Web hours. > Most people use the Internet from home, according to > the survey. More than 22 million access the 'Net from > their home computers; 13.3 million do so from work, > and 6.8 million log on from school. I told someone recently that I spent more time on the Internet than watching televison, and she responded by telling me I was ADDICTED. One thing different about the Internet vs TV is that it is interactive. When one watches television, one sits like a slug and lets others act upon one, while one can respond and create on the Web/Internet. > The fastest growing group of users are those between > the ages of 25 and 34, the survey found. That group > represents 30 percent of online users. > They have grown up with computers and are more likely not to see them as strange complicated boxes that require a techno priesthood to explain. > The survey also found that the Internet gender gap is > shrinking. Females now make up 45 percentof those > who go online. This is bad news for those that want to dominate women online, offline or anywhere on the planet. The more aggressive females may decide to flame the unequality-minded males and form networks that fight domestic abuse and job discrimination. Probably already happening, but we can only see more of it as more "ladies" log on. > > And most people use their computers to send and > receive e-mail, and to get information about their > hobbies or products and services. There's been a rash of newspaper articles and television shows about people meeting their dream spouse online, as well as married people meeting a new online lover and running off with that person. There seems to be an implication that there is some kind of marital danger on the Internet and that one should be careful about who one was talking to, because that person might break up your marriage. My take is that if it wasn't a good marriage, some other person would break it up. Besides, finding another partner has occurred many times before in local bars, in the supermarket, the church and the PTA. Only thing new here is that we've opened up a whole new arena in which to meet people. But if one spouse was spending a lot of time online, it would certainly make the other spouse suspicious. I distinctly remember the time my husband asked me how old Dr. Bain was. -AEB > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 09:24:14 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Internet Usage Survey Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970222152414.006f88b0@mail.eden.com> At 08:46 AM 2/22/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> Here is something I picked on CNN web. >> =========================== >> >> Survey: Internet use >> surging >> >> February 21, 1997 >> Web posted at: 1:30 a.m. EST >> >> CNN) -- A new survey finds the >> number of people who use the >> Internet appears to be growing by >> great leaps. >> >The front page of the Chicago Sun-Times announced that >the phone company, Ameritech, was having trouble >delivering service to the western suburbs because there >were so many people subscribiing to AOL and staying >on the Web hours. > >> Most people use the Internet from home, according to >> the survey. More than 22 million access the 'Net from >> their home computers; 13.3 million do so from work, >> and 6.8 million log on from school. > >I told someone recently that I spent more time on the >Internet than watching televison, and she responded >by telling me I was ADDICTED. > There was a report that after Internet, the TV watching has dropped in those homes where there is Internet. I tend to agree. It may be good. >One thing different about the Internet vs TV is that >it is interactive. When one watches television, one >sits like a slug and lets others act upon one, while >one can respond and create on the Web/Internet. > >> The fastest growing group of users are those between >> the ages of 25 and 34, the survey found. That group >> represents 30 percent of online users. >> >They have grown up with computers and are more >likely not to see them as strange complicated boxes >that require a techno priesthood to explain. Let us wait until the generation now in elementary and middle schools grow up. They are growing up with Internet and it would be second nature to them. > >> The survey also found that the Internet gender gap is >> shrinking. Females now make up 45 percentof those >> who go online. > >This is bad news for those that want to dominate >women online, offline or anywhere on the planet. >The more aggressive females may decide to flame >the unequality-minded males and form networks that >fight domestic abuse and job discrimination. >Probably already happening, but we can only see more >of it as more "ladies" log on. > Any kind of injustice is wrong. Every tool that helps should be used and used to its fullest extent. >> >> And most people use their computers to send and >> receive e-mail, and to get information about their >> hobbies or products and services. > >There's been a rash of newspaper articles and television >shows about people meeting their dream spouse online, as well >as married people meeting a new online lover and running off >with that person. There seems to be an implication that there >is some kind of marital danger on the Internet and that one should be >careful about who one was talking to, because that person might >break up your marriage. My take is that if it wasn't a good >marriage, some other person would break it up. >Besides, finding another partner has occurred many times >before in local bars, in the supermarket, the church and the PTA. >Only thing new here is that we've opened up a whole new arena >in which to meet people. > >But if one spouse was spending a lot of time online, it would >certainly make the other spouse suspicious. I distinctly remember >the time my husband asked me how old Dr. Bain was. > I think I posted this before. This wife was complaining that her husband was spending a lot of time on internet. Someone responded that at least he is home. How would she feel if he is away at a bar spending a lot of time and not knowing what he is doing there, not to mention just the alcoholism issue. As you say, there is nothing wrong with the tool. If things are going to fall apart, they will. MKR >-AEB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 08:27:15 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <199702221638.LAA11679@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > In a message dated 97-02-21 00:08:10 EST, you write: > > The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. > The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. > We don't care what the ES don't allow, > We're chomp them burgers anyhow. > The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. > Several years ago a member of ES was subtly trying to recruit me. I didn't know anything about it and this person's initial statement was that I'd have to be a vegetarian for at least 2 years. Since I burn up food faster than most people and need a certain amount of protein, that sunk any interest in ES that I might have had like a bucket of concrete in Lake Michigan. I'd been this route many times before, with various "spiritual advisors" advising me to food fast, sleep fast and stop eating critters. In the end, I had to make up my own mind as to what was right for me, sometimes to the point of leaving a particular group. The damage that might be done to my health was not worth the membership benefits. At one time New Age Journal did a survey on their readers eating habits. They found that they ranged from pure vegans to those that felt weak if they didn't a piece of animal protein at least once a day. In other words, one person's diet may be totally inappropriate for another. Each has to find what works for them. As far as I'm concerned, the regulations of one's personal habits, sex included, is, as they sing, "nobody's business but their own!" -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 02:05:03 +0100 From: "Martin Euser" Subject: Re: THEOS-BUDS digest 209 - Bible symbolism Message-ID: <199702230109.CAA23331@venus.euro.net> > From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) > What The Bible Actually Is: > > Actually, the Bible is the story of your life and my life. It is the unfolding > of the spiritual life of every man. As one grows in spiritual perception, he > grows into a deeper understanding of the Bible. Each time he reads it, it > contains a new and richer meaning. It is as if the pages come to life. What was > once a gory battle becomes an allegory, giving the reader an insight into his > own spiritual unfoldment. Right on, E.J! The symbolism of the Bible has been studied in-depth by Ralston Skinner in his ~Source of Measures~ using Gematria. It is a very insightful book to study (you probably have studied it). > > This is the Christ, God in us, Spirit individualized in and through man. In the > Old Testament, God in man is called Jehovah God; in the New Testament, the > Christ. And the Jehovah God is a "moon"-god as HPB shows us. Christ typifies the "sun" state of the human being - the buddhic splendour of the fourth degree initiate. >but, deep down underneath, there is > more satisfying meaning, a mystical, spiritual meaning that is of great help to > the individual today and that is what everyone is seeking. When you discover > this inner meaning, Are there any expositions of this, besides the theosophical ones and Skinner's one that you know of? I'm wondering if a seeker would have trouble in finding some good exposition of these hidden meanings in book-form if s/he went to a bookstore. the Bible is found to be, in Truth, THE WORD OF GOD, the > Wisdom of the Infinite and this is the reason that the Bible lives on forever. And, of course, for other holy scriptures which contain ditto symbolism. > The Three Keys: > > 1. The hidden meaning found in proper names > 2. The hidden meaning found in certain key words > 3. The hidden meaning found in certain key numbers > > The First Key: > > Now, I am going to place in your hands three keys that will open doors that have > heretofore remained locked to you. You're not the first one to mention this. Blavatsky, Skinner, Kuhn & others have written extensively on these things. Could you explain to me the hidden meanings of the twelve tribes of Israel? I think these typify the twelve signs of the Zodiac and may have to do with twelve fundamental vibrations-energies that make up the human being, but I've had little opportunity to study these extensively. > > Names Are States of Consciousness. What is the state of consciousness typified by the Chaldean Ur of Abram? > > One day, while looking in the index of my large reference Bible, King James > Version, I noticed that following each and every Hebrew name there was, in > parenthesis, an interpretation of that name. Each one was a state of > consciousness or a description of an invisible quality. You mean that you found an interpretation pertaining to consciousness, etc. or did you make the interpretation yourself? I mean, if the first is the case then students of this reference Bible will realize fairly soon that there's far more than a dead-letter interpretation of the Bible. With high excitement, I > began to reread some of the familiar Bible stories. To my great interest, I > found that the battles were all between certain states of consciousness where > the divine faculties in man made war with the human materialistic concepts of > man. I read on avidly, half afraid that some of the names would spoil my theory. > They never did. Like the names of the places in The Pilgrims Progress, they gave > a greater meaning, a meaning that made more sense. Each time the story proved > out. No character was miscast. Each served a purpose in a story of consciousness > leading up to the birth of the Christ, the awareness of the Divine Son-ship. Yup. BTW, what is the Pilgrims Progress? Is it the progress of the tribes of Israel from Egypt to Israel? Did you study Alvin Boyd Kuhn on that? > Name Means Nature. > > If the Bible is complicated to us, it is because we don't know the Hebrew > language. We just don't know what the Scriptures are sometimes talking about. > This is what we miss when we try to make these stories into historical > documents. When we use the true names, signifying natures, then real meaning is > revealed to us. The stories are not just about ancient peoples, but stories of > direct meaning for each one of us. You should write a book about that! In my lighter moods I'm tempted to make up a title such as "Everything about the bible you didn't understand, but were afraid to ask". But seriously, I agree that there are a lot of hidden meanings to be found in sacred scriptures. > > Take any of the Bible genealogies and trace them back, taking each name and > looking up its Hebrew meaning. By putting in the meaning rather than the names, > you will find that the genealogies are an unfoldment of ideas. Could you give some examples? The Dutch leader DJP Kok has compiled a book from his lectures about the bible and a small part shows a schematic diagram of the rounds and races as connected to these genealogies. HPB hints at this in Isis Unveiled. > > Each Place Is a Place in Consciousness. > > Egypt signifies 'bondage'; Eden, 'delight or bliss'; Bethel stands for the > 'house of God, consciousness of the all Good'; the tower of Babel or Babylon, as > you can guess, means 'confusion'. The people who dwell in these lands represent > the kind of consciousness from which they originate; their children are always > thoughts springing from the parent thought. To the Hebrew storyteller, each > story had a deeper meaning. Do you begin to see 'WHAT'S IN A NAME?' I think these places, etc. also have a geometrical meaning. Skinner gives some examples of this in his book. > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Hey From: Sorcia > Message-ID: <970221192936_1315632991@emout13.mail.aol.com> > > When are people going to realize that while the Bible is a fun book (try > reading Revelation after dropping some good acid) it has about as much > spiritual value as the warnings on the back of a Lysol can. > > Besides, in case you all forgot out there, crucifiction HURTS. > > Chuck the Heretic Oh Chuckie boy, when are you going to realize that there is more than a literal interpretation? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:56:00 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <970222115559_1481309833@emout13.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-21 21:16:35 EST, you write: >I did not know we had good poets! I didn't either. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:06:29 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <970222120628_-1474595054@emout01.mail.aol.com> Ann, In a message dated 97-02-22 11:40:13 EST, you write: >As far as I'm concerned, the regulations of one's personal habits, sex >included, is, as they sing, "nobody's business but their own!" > > Obviously, I agree. The problem with the ES is that they got stuck in this Victorian thing of creating ways for other people to live and I've found that the only way to deal with such things is to rather pointedly do the opposite. There are few things as much fun as eating a rare hamburger in front of some good ESer's and watching them squirm. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:31:22 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <330F2D6A.E9B@eden.com> Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 97-02-21 00:08:10 EST, you write: > > > > The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. > > The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. > > We don't care what the ES don't allow, > > We're chomp them burgers anyhow. > > The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. > > > Several years ago a member of ES was subtly trying to > recruit me. I didn't know anything about it and this person's > initial statement was that I'd have to be a vegetarian for > at least 2 years. > > Since I burn up food faster than most people and need > a certain amount of protein, that sunk any interest in ES > that I might have had like a bucket of concrete in Lake Michigan. > > I'd been this route many times before, with various > "spiritual advisors" advising me to food fast, sleep fast > and stop eating critters. In the end, I had to make up my > own mind as to what was right for me, sometimes to the > point of leaving a particular group. The damage that might > be done to my health was not worth the membership > benefits. > > At one time New Age Journal did a survey on their readers > eating habits. They found that they ranged from pure vegans > to those that felt weak if they didn't a piece of animal protein > at least once a day. In other words, one person's diet may be > totally inappropriate for another. Each has to find what > works for them. > > As far as I'm concerned, the regulations of one's personal habits, sex > included, is, as they sing, "nobody's business but their own!" > > -AEB It is rather unusual. As far as I know, no one is supposed to covertly or overtly try to recruit anyone -- unless things have changed in the recent times. You may recall that Mrs. Sinnett, I believe was given to alcohol and in one of the MLs APS was told that sudden cut off of alcohol may kill her and was advised gradual withdrawal. I have known many animal rights activists who have cut off all meat, sea food, poultry etc with no problems. Again one has first to have a commitment and then experiment the change. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:39:00 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <330F2F34.7121@eden.com> Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > > Ann, > > In a message dated 97-02-22 11:40:13 EST, you write: > > >As far as I'm concerned, the regulations of one's personal habits, sex > >included, is, as they sing, "nobody's business but their own!" > > > > > Obviously, I agree. The problem with the ES is that they got stuck in this > Victorian thing of creating ways for other people to live and I've found that > the only way to deal with such things is to rather pointedly do the opposite. > There are few things as much fun as eating a rare hamburger in front of some > good ESer's and watching them squirm. > > Chuck the Heretic I have always told many times that I would rather deal with and befriend a honest person with a very high integrity and a meat eater than a dishonest, crook who is a vegetarian. After all food is only one of the varied factors that need to be considered. If the Real Founders were looking for people who will fit the present model ESer, they would not have gotten either HPB or Olcott and we would not have TS/T/theosophy today. And we have to understand that the Founders and many of the Brothers directly dealt with both of them on a continuing basis and not thru any intermediary. This is something many do not think about and use their god given common sense. I will soon post a letter HSO wrote about how in 1874 he was a man of bars, clubs and mistresses -- a man least fit in the public opinion to have anything to do with any spiritual organization. I do not think many would have seen this msg. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:52:05 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <330F3245.4BF5@eden.com> Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > eating habits. They found that they ranged from pure vegans > to those that felt weak if they didn't a piece of animal protein > at least once a day. In other words, one person's diet may be > totally inappropriate for another. Each has to find what To really appreciate vegetarian food, it should be spiced, not necessarily hot kind one thinks about. Have you ever tried Indian Food especially the ones they serve during lunch buffet? It does not take too long to get hooked on to it due to the mild spiced nature. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 14:35:46 -0500 (EST) From: RIhle@aol.com Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <970222143544_-837814093@emout04.mail.aol.com> Jerry Schueler writes--> I agree with most of what you say, but my own experiences in the Pasadena TS are different. They have never limited Theosophy to HPB, but also have been willing to include the MLs, Judge, Tingley, G de Purucker, and Long as well. Richard Ihle writes--> For most of the years of my membership, the American Section may have even been better than that. Joy, Dorothy, and all the editors of the AT have encouraged my “meta-HPB” theosophical contributions (I probably have had more space in the AT than anyone on this list). I have spoken at summer conventions, and, as late as last year, I had an "open invitation" to speak at Wheaton's (monthly?) meeting should my schedule ever permit. No, I cannot complain about most of my past personal history with the Society. My complaint is simply with what seems to me a definite change in the previously prevailing pattern of "co-existence" between the "epistemological theosophists" and "Doctrinal Theosophists" over the last few years. Unfortunately, I probably don't have the strongest leg to stand on in this regard: not only did I vote for John Algeo the first time (I thought he did some wonderful writing in the old days--he’s “not a bad man, just a bad wizard”), but I also must have been asleep when things like the "World View," "The Theosophical Academy" (or whatever it is called), the changes in election rules etc. started coming down the line. It was not until an issue of the MESSENGER that it started to be clear to me what the new developments might mean for the Society’s future. Whoever is responsible for the semi-official "Theosophy in a New Key" in the April, 1996, MESSENGER, said it best: ". . .Theosophy is the particular variety of theosophical thought put forth by H.P. Blavatsky, her teachers, and her followers in the generations following her. The distinction is between ~theosophy~ as a generic and ~Theosophy~ as a body of concepts." [and then later] "Theosophy is not mentioned in the Objects, but the name of the organization is after all the 'Theosophical Society,' and that implies it has something to do with Theosophy." My sense is that the pace has been accelerated to have Doctrinal Theosophy do ~a lot~ more with the organization in coming years--and this includes predicating everything on the most-non-KPJ view of the Mahatmas. The succeeding MESSENGER with its material on "The Three Aims," (hidden behind The Three Objects), our service in behalf of Them, etc. only confirmed my suspicion about the new direction. Since I had lost interest in holding any more offices in the Society after having been a Federation president, I had previously been really quite content to let the Doctrinal people run things--why not? for the most part they seemed to have had, at least since the 70’s, an admirable record for letting the “growing edge” of the Movement have its say as well as themselves. This, in my opinion, is what is changing--and faster than many may think. JS--> I have to agree with J H-E that Theosophy has always had teachings--this is exactly the problem outlined by HPB herself when she said as soon as esoteric ideas are written down, they become esoteric doctrines. RI--> Speaking “psychogenetically” for a moment, I really do not care what the often-sad cast of Fifth-Degree (or less) souls have done throughout the Society’s history. Many have simply been people who have not been able to keep a Once-Removed Vantage upon the “teachings” involved; thus, being ineluctably egoically incorporate with ideas they were attracted to, they were simply in the business of trying to confirm their own desire-mental ego-formations by forcing the rest of the Society to go along with them. I have never liked Krishnamurti all that much; however, in one respect at least, he was probably the John the Baptist for all the budding Sixth-Degree souls within the Society. JS--> An organization needs to stand for something that can be communicated in words to others. RI--> On some days I think that the real need is for one organization out of the myriad which stands for something which CANNOT ultimately be communicated in words--in short, an organization which keeps all “teachings” subordinate to individuals’ personal development toward Seeing. But I will do some more thinking about your statement. Right now, it does not seem so clear to me. Did the earliest people have more “to stand for” than their general agreement with the Objects? Theos-l has 100+ individuals; is there some common thing which we all stand for which can be “communicated in words”? But yes, I agree there will always be teachings which will be communicated by means of the Society. HPB has teachings; the two Jerry’s have teachings; even I have teachings. I don’t know about you, but I take serious exception to the circumstance that my teachings may start to be even more “filtered-out” because I do not see THE SECRET DOCTRINE (and related) in entirely the same literal way as the entrenched powers within the Society. For example, the last article I submitted (a couple years’ ago) was the only one which the AT has ever rejected (if my memory serves me). My intention with “The Next Messenger” was to somewhat amusingly start introducing what I believe to be the most important component of HPB’s Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis: that embedded within their “possibly semi-figurative” content is a very startlingly practical ~Theosophcal Magical System~ which, in my opinion, is clearly in advance of the time-honored visualization etc. approaches. Now, I could be right about this, or I could be wrong. Nevertheless, I have some things to say about “THE INVISIBLE SUN” which HPB talked about which would interest more than a few, I believe. Rejection of “The Next Messenger” stopped me in my tracks, however, for it even further confirmed my suspicion that the TS may now just as soon prefer ~not~ to have a growing edge--even if it is possibly HPB’s edge. So, what is my next move? Try to start my own organization called IS (Invisible Sun)? Present the material in little disappearing-upon-reading, unpolished cyber-snippets on theos-l? Well, maybe . . . but before I do, I am CLAIMING MY RIGHT to the official Theosophical Context. I am CLAIMING MY RIGHT to have my contributions judged for their own theosophical interest/literary quality and not because they fail to meet the capital-T Test. Thus, I remain, CLAIMING and COMPLAINING, and GODSPEEDING as well, Richard Ihle ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 03:52:22 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Access to addresses Message-ID: In message <199702212257.RAA07498@newman.concentric.net>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes >If one is going to make a law releasing mailing lists to the general public, >then there is going to be a danger of commercial abuse. As a matter of interest, the Register of Electors in all UK areas are available to the public locally, usually in public libraries. These contain the curent years list of registered adult voters, their names and addresses. Commercial companies have and do make use of this info. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 00:16:38 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Old Dr. Bain Message-ID: In message <199702221341.IAA17199@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes >But if one spouse was spending a lot of time online, it would >certainly make the other spouse suspicious. I distinctly remember >the time my husband asked me how old Dr. Bain was. Extremely aged and wizened, totally impotent, and not the slightest danger to women. Quite a good catch if I had any money ... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 03:48:14 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: In message <199702211755.JAA25271@palrel1.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >When I studied Jung, for instance, most >of my class mates read from Jungians, not Jung. I have nothing against reading >Jungians. Certainly depth psychology did not stop with Jung, but why disregard >the luminaries that brought the first and often most vital impulse in a new >field? The Jungians, IMO, clarified what was for most students a difficult study, and such as Neumann, Fordham, Jacobi, Harding and others deserve applause. Persoanlly, I found Jung's own writings to be a little clearer after studying his "next generation" writers. Like all such luminaries - and there may be a parallel with HPB here - Jung was breaking new ground, and much of his earlier writing reflects his own *lack* of knowledge at various stages. The bottom line here is that it may more often than not be better to start with the apologists (in the academic sense) and *then* go to the source luminaries. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 00:22:07 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Wheeee ! Message-ID: In message <970222143544_-837814093@emout04.mail.aol.com>, RIhle@aol.com writes >and GODSPEEDING as well, > >Richard Ihle "God gets speeding ticket!" [Dissociated press} --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 18:51:35 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Access to addresses Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Feb 1997, Dr. A.M.Bain wrote: > In message <199702212257.RAA07498@newman.concentric.net>, "Ann E. > Bermingham" writes > >If one is going to make a law releasing mailing lists to the general public, > >then there is going to be a danger of commercial abuse. > > As a matter of interest, the Register of Electors in all UK areas are > available to the public locally, usually in public libraries. These > contain the curent years list of registered adult voters, their names > and addresses. Commercial companies have and do make use of this info. > > Alan > --------- The same is the case here in the USA. The voter registration lists are maintained at the county(district) level and is available for anyone to use for any purpose. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 03:54:25 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: In message <2.2.32.19970222021426.00bb1a90@mail.eden.com>, M K Ramadoss writes >>Now, didn't that feel good. We may sing it at convention at four pm the >>first afternoon. >> >>Chuck the Heretic >> >I did not know we had good poets! > >MKR We do? Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 19:18:32 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Eat Your Veggies Message-ID: <199702231333.IAA11367@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > > I have known many animal rights activists who have cut off all meat, sea > food, poultry etc with no problems. Again one has first to have a > commitment and then experiment the change. > I believe the future of vegetariansm lies in finding and creating high-quality, good-tasting sources of vegetable protein that will provide complete protein. Most of the soybean substitutes available today are loaded with sugar, artificial flavors and preservatives. Also, vegetarianism needs to address those with special needs, like allergies, diabetes, hypglycemia, low-fat, etc. Most of the veggie diets I see don't address these at all. There's a great deal of experimentation that needs to be done in this area to truly make it work for everyone. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 19:20:41 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <199702231334.IAA11373@newman.concentric.net> > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > Ann, > > >As far as I'm concerned, the regulations of one's personal habits, sex > >included, is, as they sing, "nobody's business but their own!" > > > > > Obviously, I agree. The problem with the ES is that they got stuck in this > Victorian thing of creating ways for other people to live and I've found that > the only way to deal with such things is to rather pointedly do the opposite. > There are few things as much fun as eating a rare hamburger in front of some > good ESer's and watching them squirm. > What do you do? Stand outside Olcott with a Wendy's special in your hand? -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 07:36:20 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Access to TSA members Message-ID: <199702231334.IAA11381@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > > Everyone is fully aware of the "sacred" and "secret" membership list of TSA. > Who is everyone, Doss? There is a very old problem both in TSA and on this list that if you join up, your brain is automatically programmed with the entire history of TS, including all the gossip and behind-the-scenes stuff of the past 100 years. Remember, there may be people of this list who aren't even members of any TS and are just here to find out about it. > It appears that we need to look forward to changes in Illinois law as well. > I will not be surprised to see such explicit requirement being made part of > non profit corporations act in all 50 states. What are the Illinois laws at present? -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 07:39:36 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Old Dr. Bain Message-ID: <199702231344.IAA13415@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > > In message <199702221341.IAA17199@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" > writes > >But if one spouse was spending a lot of time online, it would > >certainly make the other spouse suspicious. I distinctly remember > >the time my husband asked me how old Dr. Bain was. > > Extremely aged and wizened, totally impotent, and not the slightest > danger to women. Quite a good catch if I had any money ... > Remember my recent post to Richard and Tom? It's not the body or wealth one falls in love with, it's the energies within. -AEB :-) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 08:33:59 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Eat Your Veggies Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Feb 1997, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > ---------- > > From: M K Ramadoss > > > > I have known many animal rights activists who have cut off all meat, sea > > food, poultry etc with no problems. Again one has first to have a > > commitment and then experiment the change. > > > I believe the future of vegetariansm lies in finding and creating > high-quality, good-tasting sources of vegetable protein that will provide > complete protein. Most of the soybean substitutes available today > are loaded with sugar, artificial flavors and preservatives. > > Also, vegetarianism needs to address those with special needs, > like allergies, diabetes, hypglycemia, low-fat, etc. Most of the veggie diets > I see don't address these at all. There's a great deal of experimentation > that needs to be done in this area to truly make it work for everyone. > > -AEB I agree that a lot of experimentation has to be done and will be done. I have been a vegetarian (lacto) all my life and eat spicy food and has seen no problem with protein needs. My family is also lacto vegetarian. Most of my neighbors think we save a lot of money by being a vegetarian. Also most of the people in India are vegetarians and even those who eat meat only eat may be once a week and some only once a month, because meat is very expensive. Also on all holy days of Hinduism, no one eats meat. I have known several diabetics and have not seen any problem with vegetarian food. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 08:41:05 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Access to TSA members Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Feb 1997, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > ---------- > > From: M K Ramadoss > > > > Everyone is fully aware of the "sacred" and "secret" membership list of TSA. > > > Who is everyone, Doss? There is a very old problem both in TSA and on this > list that if you join up, your brain is automatically programmed with the entire > history of TS, including all the gossip and behind-the-scenes stuff of the past > 100 years. Remember, there may be people of this list who aren't even > members of any TS and are just here to find out about it. Anyone who has been on this list during the time the elections issue was discussed, should be aware of the membership secrecy issue when Gerda Thompson posted a msg of her personal experience and the action taken. If some one is new, then we can bring them up to date. > > > It appears that we need to look forward to changes in Illinois law as well. > > I will not be surprised to see such explicit requirement being made part of > > non profit corporations act in all 50 states. > > What are the Illinois laws at present? > > -AEB > Glad you brought this up. I will post detailed msg. In effect, the current Illinois non profit corporation act does require access to all books and records of TSA to any voting member. May be someone can try to see if TSA would permit them to visit their offices and look into the books and records which includes membership list. I do not think it explicitly requires them to provide copying assistance for a nominal fee. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 21:16:23 -0800 From: Mika Perala Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 921 Message-ID: <330FD2A7.341@dlc.fi> Ann wrote: > > > > I believe the future of vegetariansm lies in finding and creating > high-quality, good-tasting sources of vegetable protein that will provide > complete protein. Most of the soybean substitutes available today > are loaded with sugar, artificial flavors and preservatives. > > Also, vegetarianism needs to address those with special needs, > like allergies, diabetes, hypglycemia, low-fat, etc. Most of the veggie diets > I see don't address these at all. There's a great deal of experimentation > that needs to be done in this area to truly make it work for everyone. > > -AEB > Yes. And there is a need for vegetarian fast-food too. Or I need it. And who invented eating anyway? I`d like to have a word with that fellow... Mika 8) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 11:04:52 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 921 Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Feb 1997, Mika Perala wrote: > Ann wrote: > > > > > > > I believe the future of vegetariansm lies in finding and creating > > high-quality, good-tasting sources of vegetable protein that will provide > > complete protein. Most of the soybean substitutes available today > > are loaded with sugar, artificial flavors and preservatives. > > > > Also, vegetarianism needs to address those with special needs, > > like allergies, diabetes, hypglycemia, low-fat, etc. Most of the veggie diets > > I see don't address these at all. There's a great deal of experimentation > > that needs to be done in this area to truly make it work for everyone. > > > > -AEB > > > > Yes. And there is a need for vegetarian fast-food too. Or I need it. And > who invented eating anyway? I`d like to have a word with that fellow... > > Mika 8) > In Houston you can get Indian Vegetarian fast food. I am sure there must be in other large cities like NY, Chicago, LA etc. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 12:04:26 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Wheeee ! Message-ID: <970223120424_1712796392@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-22 19:44:47 EST, you write: > >"God gets speeding ticket!" > > "Traffic cop gets hit by leprosy!" National Perspirer ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 12:16:43 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: TS & ES Message-ID: <970223121643_2061346547@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-23 08:40:50 EST, you write: >What do you do? Stand outside Olcott with a Wendy's special in your hand? > >-AEB Nothing quite so crude, though everyone at convention probably knows why I don't eat lunch in the dining room but go across to the gyros place. It happens that over the years a number of us have gone to the local eateries either to talk about something r just to go out after a program and I always eat meat if I'm hungry simply because I like it and it's fun to watch them deal with fact. It's sort of like the old Cosimano family custom of going to the local restaurant on Good Friday and eating meat next to a good Catholic family who has to then try to explain to their little kids why they can't have a hamburger that day. That started quite by accident and my folks enjoyed the discomfort of those poor folks so much that it became an annual event. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 12:23:20 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Eat Your Veggies Message-ID: <970223122319_-1139226631@emout10.mail.aol.com> The eating of vegetables is an abomination. People who eat vegetables probably wear white during rituals, which is also an abomination. Then they start thinking they're airheads--er--arhats. Then they really get in trouble and reincarnate as ES members. At this point the soul gets disgusted and abandons the vehicle and goes off to McDonalds. Which means that the McDonalds near Olcott gets pretty crowded at convention time with all those poor, displaced souls. Chuck the Heretical Carnivore ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 11:17:16 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <199702231917.LAA14500@palrel1.hp.com> "Dr. A.M.Bain" wrote: > The Jungians, IMO, clarified what was for most students a difficult study, > and such as Neumann, Fordham, Jacobi, Harding and others deserve applause. > Persoanlly, I found Jung's own writings to be a little clearer after > studying his "next generation" writers. > Like all such luminaries - and there may be a parallel with HPB here - Jung > was breaking new ground, and much of his earlier writing reflects his own > *lack* of knowledge at various stages. > The bottom line here is that it may more often than not be better to start > with the apologists (in the academic sense) and *then* go to the source > luminaries. Yes. I see what you are saying. I have had a similar experience with other texts. (Not Jung's in my case.) As long as you eventually get to the source, it matters little what path you take - even if you have to unlearn some false things you have swallowed whole from an occasional apologist. I think we agree that the original source contains some vitality or spirit in it. This spirit persists in spite of the "lack of knowledge" evident in any pioneer's works. Pioneers, having limited time and also being in the midst of the prejudices they are trying to break through, do not always polish their works or avoid errors. In the case of HPB, for example, I think we can safely discard her attempts to express ideas in the language of late 19th century science. Her refutations of contemporary errors can also be a little tedious. Nevertheless, after filtering out these and other things, I get something from her direct writings that I miss from other Theosophical writings. Words do not exactly capture a new impulse. "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao." But you have to listen with the "inner ear." From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 13:53:53 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Outta My Face Message-ID: <199702231951.OAA02621@cliff.cris.com> > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > Subject: Re: TS & ES > Date: Sunday, February 23, 1997 11:18 AM > > In a message dated 97-02-23 08:40:50 EST, you write: > > >What do you do? Stand outside Olcott with a Wendy's special in your hand? > > > >-AEB > > Nothing quite so crude, though everyone at convention probably knows why I > don't eat lunch in the dining room but go across to the gyros place. It > happens that over the years a number of us have gone to the local eateries > either to talk about something r just to go out after a program and I always > eat meat if I'm hungry simply because I like it and it's fun to watch them > deal with fact. You'll have to tell me where all the good places are. I'm tired of explaining to vegetarians that I have hypoglycemia and need to have some solid protein in my diet, rather than a lot of carbos. I'm beginning to think all those years I was so apologetic about it was a waste of time. Maybe I should just wave a burger in their sanctimonious faces and say, "HELL, I JUST LOVE TO EAT MEAT! WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?" I've gotten some pretty nasty comments from people, even though they had no idea I was on a special diet or why. They just plowed in and started snapping at me, like a I was Nazi War criminal. Well, no more Mrs. Nice Person! If you don't like my food, get outta my face or I'll give you the URL to Cosimano's page! -AEB " ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 00:24:21 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Outta My Face Message-ID: In message <199702231951.OAA02621@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes >get outta my face or >I'll give you the URL to Cosimano's page! That's cruel :-) Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 00:12:45 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Eat Your Veggies and live Message-ID: In message <970223122319_-1139226631@emout10.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >The eating of vegetables is an abomination. > >People who eat vegetables probably wear white during rituals, which is also >an abomination. Sometimes, Uncle Chucky, you can reach new heights of silliness! here in the Old Country (as some Americans have called it) we have seen a very large increase of vegetarianism, mostly because people are afraid of being killed as a consequence of eating meat, especially beef. Beef cattle in the tens or even thousands of hundreds have had to be slaughtered throughout Europe to prevent the spread of "Mad Cow Disease" which is suspected of being connected to an increase in the incidence of its human equivalent. Very recently we have seen a number of deaths directly related to meat eating where the E.Coli virus has found its way into the food chain among meat consumers. Eating meat, it is clear, can seriously damage your health. Lucky ol' me has avoided all this by turning veggie about seven years back. One of my better decisions, I think. Joing the TS was not one of my better decisions, so don't blame them. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 00:31:45 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <4Or4AXAxFOEzEwSP@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199702231917.LAA14500@palrel1.hp.com>, Titus Roth writes >I think we agree that the original source contains some vitality or spirit in >it. This spirit persists in spite of the "lack of knowledge" evident in any >pioneer's works. Pioneers, having limited time and also being in the midst of >the prejudices they are trying to break through, do not always polish their >works or avoid errors. .. which encourages us to check out what they said, so that errors can be corrected if possible in the interest of the truth we are seeking. > >In the case of HPB, for example, I think we can safely discard her attempts to >express ideas in the language of late 19th century science. Her refutations of >contemporary errors can also be a little tedious. Nevertheless, after >filtering out these and other things, I get something from her direct writings >that I miss from other Theosophical writings. Indeed - I probably got more from ~Isis~ than the SD for instance, but there are many gems in the latter, though sometimes there is a lot of tedium to pass before one finds them! Alan From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:53:13 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: I AM THAT I AM Message-ID: <3311bc23.3490086@mail.earthlink.net> " I AM THAT I AM..." This is the secret of the ages. It is the Self within each one of us, 'the Father who doeth the works,' it is 'Jehovah God', the 'indwelling Christ, omnipotent Power individualized in and through man'. This was the God of Abraham and Issac and of Jacob for they had discovered that with men it is impossible but with God all things are possible. In this one statement, "I AM THAT I AM..." is contained all that God is - infinite Power, omnipresent Love, and divine Intelligence. 'And beside Him there is none other'. This is the only Power there is. 'Is anything too hard for God?' The Jehovah God of the Old Testament and the Christ of the New Testament are the same. In the New Testament we have Peter saying to Jesus, "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God." He understood that the God Power lived and worked through him. This is the Truth that God is giving to Moses. This is the 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'. God Power in man is Christ in man. It is the only Power. To use it, man must recognize it. This Moses is willing to try to understand. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 00:12:38 GMT From: ejlight@earthlink.net (E. J.) Subject: On: "digest 209 - Bible symbolism" Message-ID: <3315ce4c.8139339@mail.earthlink.net> Martin, You obviously have a very good mastery of interpreting the symbolism of The Bible -- you have studies much and it is to your credit. Scriptures (not only Christendom's claimed Bible, but rather All Scriptures) were written down so that they could be preserved for posterity until mankind was ready Inwardly to understand them. [:->> Right on, E.J! [:->>The symbolism of the Bible has been studied in-depth by Ralston Skinner [:->>in his ~Source of Measures~ using Gematria. It is a very insightful book [:->>to study (you probably have studied it). [:->> Are there any expositions of this, besides the theosophical ones and [:->>Skinner's [:->>one that you know of? I'm wondering if a seeker would have trouble in [:->>finding some [:->>good exposition of these hidden meanings in book-form if s/he went to a [:->>bookstore. I think that there is not a single book that one could point to and attest that it may be THE BOOK to look for in one's Understanding of Symbols of Scriptures. The Path is narrow, yet the Gate is very Wide so one must Search everywhere in all schools of thought including the sciences if one Seeks Eldorado. [:->> You're not the first one to mention this. Blavatsky, Skinner, Kuhn & [:->>others [:->>have written extensively on these things. And I will not be the last. [:->>Could you explain to me the [:->>hidden meanings [:->>of the twelve tribes of Israel? I think these typify the twelve signs of [:->>the Zodiac and [:->>may have to do with twelve fundamental vibrations-energies that make up the [:->>human [:->>being, but I've had little opportunity to study these extensively. I will get into this at a latter date. [:->> You mean that you found an interpretation pertaining to consciousness, [:->>etc. [:->>or did you make the interpretation yourself? I mean, if the first is the [:->>case then [:->>students of this reference Bible will realize fairly soon that there's far [:->>more [:->>than a dead-letter interpretation of the Bible. I, like yourself and many others, would like to find a True Interpretation of "Inner Consciousness" though many write about it. The fact of the matter is that one Unfolds Inner Consciousness as a result of Study and Application and Meditation -- that is, Study to gain information and Apply that information to see if it indeed is applicable and Meditate on the application of the information to see if it indeed is in the Natural Flow of the Cosmos. After a while, one unfolds an Insight of the Natural Flow as well as into Information and Applications and the practice of Meditation. One also Understands that Study and Application and Meditation are not exercises but rather a State of Mind that is always about one in whatever one is viewing or thinking about. One also realizes that this Consciousness can be talked 'about' but can not be 'told' -- it is something that must be Experienced in order to be realized. [:->> Yup. BTW, what is the Pilgrims Progress? Is it the progress of the tribes [:->>of Israel from Egypt to Israel? [:->>Did you study Alvin Boyd Kuhn on that? I will try to locate that little volume -- but, are we not "Pilgrims" -- "He met a pilgrim shadow -- 'Shadow', said he, 'Where can it be -- This land of Eldorado?" =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Only a giant can comprehend a giant's strength, a dwarf can at best have only a very vague and imperfect idea of giantly might. Let There Be Light -- Always in All Ways, e.j.}`-`{ http://home.earthlink.net/~ejlight/index1.html "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity -- and I'm not sure about the former" - A. Einstein From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 12:01:08 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 921 Message-ID: <199702240101.MAA24735@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> Chuck wrote >> > The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. >> > The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. >> > We don't care what the ES don't allow, >> > We're chomp them burgers anyhow. >> > The ES don't allow no meat eatin' round here. Ann wrote >>> Since I burn up food faster than most people and need >> a certain amount of protein, that sunk any interest in ES >> that I might have had like a bucket of concrete in Lake Michigan. I have a similar problem in that I discovered that meat eating was directly related to brain function. As I live to the limit of mine in the work I do, I could not afford the loss of concentration, mental stamina and short term memory which I suffered when I was not eating meat. As a natural vegetarian, and believing at the time that vegetarianism was a superior way, I struggled to find which food supplements would work to replace the meat. I experimented which just about everything until I finally reconciled to my meat eating status when I discovered that the Dalai Lama eats meat. ;-) What's good enough for him is good enough for me, I decided. So whilst the ES was tempting in my early days, it was inaccessible. Now I think that this was perhaps a good thing. MKR wrote > If the Real Founders were looking for people who will fit the present >model ESer, they would not have gotten either HPB or Olcott and we would >not have TS/T/theosophy today. And we have to understand that the >Founders and many of the Brothers directly dealt with both of them on a >continuing basis and not thru any intermediary. This is something many >do not think about and use their god given common sense. > I will soon post a letter HSO wrote about how in 1874 he was a man of >bars, clubs and mistresses -- a man least fit in the public opinion to >have anything to do with any spiritual organization. I do not think many >would have seen this msg. I wonder whether our definition of " spirituaity" has changed over the last century, to be now encapsulated in the New Age and the Indian Ashram "goody two shoes" image. If we look at the lives of spiritual leaders in the past, they may have ended up paragons of virtue, but many had a lot of fun, and often did a lot of terrible things (by our standards) on the way. MKR wrote > To really appreciate vegetarian food, it should be spiced, not >necessarily hot kind one thinks about. Have you ever tried Indian Food >especially the ones they serve during lunch buffet? It does not take too >long to get hooked on to it due to the mild spiced nature. I don't think taste is the issue. A western lifestyle in a western body is. I could happily be a vegetarian ohmm-ing my life away on a mountaintop, but put me in the middle of a large city doing a yuppy job in the corporate technological world, and watch me go incompetant (and mad) without meat. >Whoever is responsible for the semi-official "Theosophy in a New Key" in the >April, 1996, MESSENGER, said it best: ". and >The >succeeding MESSENGER with its material on "The Three Aims," (hidden behind >The Three Objects), our service in behalf of Them, etc. only confirmed my >suspicion about the new direction. Have these articles been scanned? I have been watching all ther references to the aims in the hope that someone would finally say what they are. In the interests of education of the rest of the world who do not get MESSENGER, I wonder if these articles could be put on-line. Richard wrote >So, what is my next move? Try to start my own organization called IS >(Invisible Sun)? Present the material in little disappearing-upon-reading, >unpolished cyber-snippets on theos-l? What a good idea. We've been looking for a way to forward theosophy on the Internet. Maybe this is it. But I am surprised that you did not realise that any mention of the third object of the TS - ie the powers latent in man - ie magic- was going to elicit stoney hostility at best. This attitude has always amazed me given HPB's life, but then if the society is run by the ES, I suppose it is reasonable for them to keep the fun for themselves (if they actually have any significant practical occult skills at all, that is) and keep we "untouchables" under control by keeping us all locked in our intellectual prisons where we can't possibly do (them) any harm. Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 00:26:07 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Old Dr. Bain Message-ID: <8ug54RAfAOEzEwwL@nellie2.demon.co.uk> In message <199702231344.IAA13415@newman.concentric.net>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes >Remember my recent post to Richard and Tom? It's not the body >or wealth one falls in love with, it's the energies within. Energies? Ahh, I remember them well ... Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 23:57:12 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: "Three Aims of TS" Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970224055712.0067411c@mail.eden.com> In response to requests about the Three Aims discussed in several messages here, the following excerpt gives the relevant description for those who have not see it. ================================ Three Aims of Theosophical Society: See the note at the end of this excerpt. ======================== [4] Well, certainly there are a lot of New Age organizations around that teach and practice the same ideas you do. How is the Theosophical Society different from those? It is true that a number of organizations today teach Theosophical concepts. But the Theosophical Society is more than just an organization teaching various Theosophical concepts. The Society has three aims that it pursues, and those three aims, taken together, make it unique. [5] What are those aims? Well, to start with the one that is closest to our discussion so far, the Society teaches Theosophy Ä not just various related ideas like reincarnation and karma Ä but a total worldview that relates all our varied experiences to a single vision of cosmic unity, order, and purposefulness. Theosophy holds the existence of a great cosmic plan by which everything, from the fall of a leaf to the expansion of galaxies, has its place. All the myriad realities we experience are expressions of one underlying Reality and are themselves interrelated within an orderly cosmos that is evolving towards ever increasing consciousness and self-awareness. [6] And all your Theosophical ideas fit into that worldview? Precisely. Theosophy is a kind of seamless garment in which no parts can be omitted or disconnected, because all are interconnected. Or, to use a different metaphor, Theosophy is a hologram, whose design is present in every part, so that the whole can be reconstructed from any fragment. [7] Where does this worldview come from? It can be found in partial form in all of the religions and philosophies of the world, adapted in each of them to a particular culture, speaking to the people of a place and time. The underlying source of all those religions and philosophies is a tradition that goes by many names: the Perennial Philosophy, the Ancient Wisdom, the Esoteric Tradition, the Secret Doctrine, the Timeless Teaching, the Way of the Old Ones, and, in other languages, the Gnosis, the Sanata Dharma, the Brahmavidya, and TheosophiaÄor Theosophy. According to this tradition itself, it was given to earliest humanity by wise teachers whom legends remember as heroes or gods; it has been passed on, verified, expanded, and adapted to changing conditions by a succession of other wise teachers; and from time to time those wise teachers send out some version of the tradition into the world as a religion, a philosophy, or a science. Modern Theosophy is such a version of that Wisdom Tradition, with a worldview that embraces and synthesizes religion, philosophy, and science. [8] Tell me more about these "wise teachers." Who are they? They are called by various names: Mahatmas, literally "great souls" because of their spiritual achievements; Masters of the Wisdom, because they have mastered the tradition and therefore can teach it; Adepts, because they are highly skilled or adept at the tradition; Bodhisattvas, literally "Those whose nature is Wisdom"; the Brothers, because they belong to an inner family within the larger human family, though they might better be called Brothers and Sisters, for they incarnate in both male and female bodies; the Elders, because they are an evolutionary stage in advance of us, or are older than we in development. <> [ [11] What is our connection with these elders? Having completed the task we have to fulfill in this stage of evolution, our elders might have exited from the stage and gone on to other spheres of activity. However, like the good, responsible elders they are, they have chosen to stay in this stage of evolution in order to help us, their younger siblings, to achieve what they have already done. Because of their decision to remain with us as our helpers, they are called bodhisattvas. The "Bodhisattva vow" of Northern Buddhism is a resolve not to enter nirvana (which represents the extinction of all pain, change, and separateness) until all other living beings can enter nirvana with them. The elders serve as our guides and guardians. Thus they are active in protecting us from the consequences of ignorance and in preparing us to take advantage of our evolutionary possibilities. One way they guide us is by presenting the Wisdom Tradition at various times and in various forms. One of those presentations is the Theosophical Society. Although we say that the Society was founded by H. P. Blavatsky, H. S. Olcott, W. Q. Judge, and others, Blavatsky was sent to America by one of the elders who was her special teacher especially to start such an organization. [12] So one of your aims is to set forth a worldview that derives from these elders, a worldview you call Theosophy? Just so. Modern Theosophy has, of course, been shaped by many persons from Helena Blavatsky onward. But its essence is an expression of the Wisdom Tradition, which we also call timeless Theosophy. [13] What are the other two aims you alluded to? A second aim of the Society is to offer its members a way of transforming themselves, of achieving the purpose of our evolution, of discovering who they really are. Theosophy is not just a body of information, it is also a way of life. Blavatsky said, "Theosophist is who Theosophy does"Änot "knows," but "does." [ <<>> And the third aim? The third aim of the Society - actually the first in importance - is to bring together a group of people who are informed about the principles of the Wisdom Tradition, who have begun the work of self - transformation, and who are dedicated to cooperating with the elders and assisting in their work. The elders need the help of ordinary men and women because, whatever their knowledge and ability, they cannot do everything themselves. They need co-workers who can assist in realizing the cosmic plan, even in modest ways. It is an aim of the Theosophical Society to bring together a nucleus of persons who can fill that role. [16] Are these three aims in addition to the three declared objects of the Theosophical Society? No, the aims we have been discussing are really just a different way of looking at the Society's three objects. They are the Inner side of those declared objects. ===================================== [excerpted from The Messenger, A newsletter and Study Paper of the Theosophical Society in America, edited by John Algeo, National President - February 1996, No, 12. The above part of a serial article titled "Theosophy in a New Key, Chapter 9: Theosophy and the "New Age". The article is unsigned] ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 17:02:30 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <199702240602.RAA17013@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> MKR wrote >I agree that a lot of experimentation has to be done and will be done. >I have been a vegetarian (lacto) all my life and eat spicy food and has >seen no problem with protein needs. My family is also lacto vegetarian. >Most of my neighbors think we save a lot of money by being a vegetarian. > >Also most of the people in India are >vegetarians and even those who eat meat only eat may be once a week and >some only once a month, because meat is very expensive. Also on all holy >days of Hinduism, no one eats meat. I have known several diabetics and >have not seen any problem with vegetarian food. > Shame on you Doss - this looks like an attempt to impose your view on we meat eaters. Can you not accept that different matabolisms (perhaps racially determined), different climates and different lifestyles impose different dietary requirements. India may be famous for it's gurus, but not, I think, for its great intellectual and technological genius. Horses for courses. Am I smelling that old TS lack of respect for difference emerging here on this list? >The eating of vegetables is an abomination. I think Chuck said it all. Ever hear broccoli scream? >You'll have to tell me where all the good places are. I'm tired of explaining to >vegetarians that I have hypoglycemia and need to have some solid protein in my >diet, rather than a lot of carbos. I'm beginning to think all those years I was so >apologetic about it was a waste of time. Maybe I should just wave a burger in >their >sanctimonious faces and say, "HELL, I JUST LOVE TO EAT MEAT! WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?" I agree that we should not be placed on the defensive, seen as spiritually inferior or otherwised harassed into not following our inner knowing on this issue. The best shorthand rejoinder I have is the "What is good enough for the Dalai Lama is good enough for me." one, but I resent having to use it. Alan wrote >Sometimes, Uncle Chucky, you can reach new heights of silliness! here >in the Old Country (as some Americans have called it) we have seen a >very large increase of vegetarianism, mostly because people are afraid >of being killed as a consequence of eating meat, especially beef. >Eating meat, it is clear, can seriously damage your health. Lucky ol' >me has avoided all this by turning veggie about seven years back. What about chook, Uncle Dr Alan - is that classified as meat - or lamb, or pork, or venison, or pheasant or lobster or flake (shark to the uninitiated). All meats can go rancid and are questionable from a health point of view, but so is pernicious anaemia. Be careful of that spinach too. Too much can kill you, you know. Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:39:17 -0800 From: Mika Perala Subject: Veggie fast food Message-ID: <3310F145.7FE4@dlc.fi> m.k. ramadoss wrote: > > > In Houston you can get Indian Vegetarian fast food. I am sure there must > be in other large cities like NY, Chicago, LA etc. > > mkr Well, that`s nice to hear. Wish my hometown(Helsinki, Finland) would have one too. IT`s not that "fast" anymore if I have to pick it up from the another side of the world... Mika :) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 06:38:53 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970224123853.006f3138@mail.eden.com> At 01:10 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >Shame on you Doss - this looks like an attempt to impose your view on we >meat eaters. Can you not accept that different matabolisms (perhaps >racially determined), different climates and different lifestyles impose >different dietary requirements. India may be famous for it's gurus, but >not, I think, for its great intellectual and technological genius. Horses >for courses. Am I smelling that old TS lack of respect for difference >emerging here on this list? I am just stating the facts. If you have read the latter part of my msg you will understand. Some of my best friends and supporters of vegetarian diet are meat eating TS members. Also one of the best physicians I use is a Jewish person from Arkansas, USA who is an vegetarian. Vegetarianism stands on its own feet. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 06:44:12 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Veggie fast food Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970224124412.006f4ebc@mail.eden.com> At 06:46 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >m.k. ramadoss wrote: >> > >> In Houston you can get Indian Vegetarian fast food. I am sure there must >> be in other large cities like NY, Chicago, LA etc. >> >> mkr > >Well, that`s nice to hear. Wish my hometown(Helsinki, Finland) would have >one too. IT`s not that "fast" anymore if I have to pick it up from the >another side of the world... > > >Mika :) Who knows some enterprising person from India may find an opportunity in Helsinki. There is a joke about the enterpreneurship of a segment of south indian community nick named "kaka" and they set up tea shops everywhere in India. It appears that when Everest was conquered by Hillary and Tenzing Norkey, when they hoisted the flags, there comes a kaka with a tea kettle hawking tea. To be serious, to support Indian fast food needs a lot of customers and usually a large Indian population. I hope with a lot of changes taking place in the world, one of these days we will find veggie fast food. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:43:16 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: ES & TS Message-ID: <199702241258.HAA07374@ultra1.dreamscape.com> About ES & sex, when I was in it those 3 months, the rule said "no illegal sex". Truthfully, that made me feel much more secure around theosophical men, because I knew they wouldn't make a pass at me, and I didn't need to be on the defensive with them all the time. On the other hand, "Illegal" excluded anyone straight or gay in a long term relationship but not married. I understand that since then they've relaxed the rule a little and will accept people in long standing relationships, I suppose that covers homosexuals as well. At the time, it didn't. They would have admitted a homosexual as long as he\she was celibate. I didn't think that was fair, because straight ESers weren't being asked to be celibate, so I got out again. I have a gay son, whom I love very much, and I wasn't about to become member of an organization to which he couldn't also belong if he wanted to. Over the years, it turned out, it didn't make him feel good that I quit the ES because of him, so I said I'd join again if ever I could. I started rejoining around the time that the TS by-laws were changed. I got so disgusted with all the conniving going on at the time, that I wrote the Outer Head "never mind." In the intervening years, since my first quit, I've gotten a lot of spiritual training both from Harry Van Gelder and from Serge King, combined with reading. By now I don't feel that I'm missing out on the much vaunted ES training. I got it anyway from other teachers. So now you got my story, Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:21:24 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Access to TSA members Message-ID: <199702241315.IAA25959@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: m.k. ramadoss > > > > What are the Illinois laws at present? > > > > -AEB > > > Glad you brought this up. I will post detailed msg. In effect, the > current Illinois non profit corporation act does require access to all > books and records of TSA to any voting member. May be someone can try to > see if TSA would permit them to visit their offices and look into the > books and records which includes membership list. I do not think it > explicitly requires them to provide copying assistance for a nominal fee. > Good luck. I remember when three years ago someone asked if the LCC church in Chicago could have access to the TSA mailing list. The answer was a big NYET. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:17:52 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 921 Message-ID: <199702241315.IAA25966@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: m.k. ramadoss > > > > Yes. And there is a need for vegetarian fast-food too. Or I need it. And > > who invented eating anyway? I`d like to have a word with that fellow... > > > > Mika 8) > > > In Houston you can get Indian Vegetarian fast food. I am sure there must > be in other large cities like NY, Chicago, LA etc. > In Chicago, probably on the north side of the city. That's where a lot of the vegetarian restaurants are located. It's where the New Agers, yogis, old Hippies and poor intelligentsia have tended to live. Along with the wealthy yuppies. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:34:05 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: To C. Kent Message-ID: <199702241345.IAA02502@cliff.cris.com> > From: C Kent > > As a natural vegetarian, and believing at the time that vegetarianism was a > superior way, I struggled to find which food supplements would work to > replace the meat. I experimented which just about everything until I > finally reconciled to my meat eating status when I discovered that the Dalai > Lama eats meat. ;-) What's good enough for him is good enough for me, I > decided. So whilst the ES was tempting in my early days, it was > inaccessible. Now I think that this was perhaps a good thing. My husband and I did a lot experimenting with vegetarian diets in the 70's and had to come to the conclusion that it wasn't for us. I have friends that are both vegetarian and non, some in the same family, so it makes for creative mealtimes, where the entree is meat for the dad and kids, while mom has a slice cheese with her veggies. I think it's great if someone can pull that kind of diet off, but I'd just settle for being able to eat whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. I haven't been able to do that for over 20 years. Thanks for the infor about the Dalai Lama. Yes, I've met some highly spiritual meat-eaters in my time, including Stephan Hoeller. > > I don't think taste is the issue. A western lifestyle in a western body is. > I could happily be a vegetarian ohmm-ing my life away on a mountaintop, but > put me in the middle of a large city doing a yuppy job in the corporate > technological world, and watch me go incompetant (and mad) without meat. > Someone once told me that she thought if you were a city-dweller, it was better to eat meat because it thickened your aura and made you less sensitive to the different energies of the crowd. Eileen and Peter Caddy, who founded the Findhorn Community in Scotland, were not vegetarians when they ran a hotel. After they left to start Findhorn, they were directed by angels (devas) to eat only what they grew in their organic garden, as a vegetarian diet would allow them to be more in contact with the angelic kingdom. At some point, Eileen went into surgery and came back to the community to recuperate. She wrote of her craving at that time for a good piece of meat, which she later confided to the person who was taking care of her. That person ran to the nearest town and bought her some, which she ate and it speeded her healing. Cayce would have said that it was just something she needed at that time. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:38:38 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Where's John the Carrot? Message-ID: <199702241345.IAA02509@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: C Kent > I think Chuck said it all. Ever hear broccoli scream? > Cayce asked," Does not the carrot scream when you pull it out of the ground?' My theory is that everything is being sacrificed all the time. We'll eventually give up our bodies which go back to the earth, which then is where vegetables are grown and where grass grazes for cattle. It's just a cycle. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:45:59 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Two-legged Message-ID: <199702241345.IAA02523@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: ramadoss@eden.com > I am just stating the facts. If you have read the latter part of my msg > you will understand. Some of my best friends and supporters of vegetarian > diet are meat eating TS members. Also one of the best physicians I use is a > Jewish person from Arkansas, USA who is an vegetarian. Vegetarianism stands > on its own feet. > Doss, I would be most grateful if vegetarianism stood on it's own two leggies and wouldn't scream in my face. Believe it or not, I have met some militant vegetarians in my time that have decided that their cause to make the world vegetarian meant that they could say any rude thing to me that came into their head. This type of behavior is very close to what militant evangelical Christians use when they collar you on the street corner and yell in your face. That kind of behavior just puts me on the defensive and makes me want to eat some meat, just for spite. The most impressive vegetarians I have ever met are those that quietly and joyfully practice it, without saying a word, offer me dish to try and then give me the recipe. Enuff said. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 07:47:37 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Old Dr. Bain Message-ID: <199702241345.IAA02533@cliff.cris.com> > From: Dr. A.M.Bain > > In message <199702231344.IAA13415@newman.concentric.net>, "Ann E. > Bermingham" writes > >Remember my recent post to Richard and Tom? It's not the body > >or wealth one falls in love with, it's the energies within. > > Energies? Ahh, I remember them well ... > Are they all gone? You must be dead. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:13:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Access to TSA members Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970224141324.00696764@mail.eden.com> At 08:20 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: m.k. ramadoss >> > >> > What are the Illinois laws at present? >> > >> > -AEB >> > >> Glad you brought this up. I will post detailed msg. In effect, the >> current Illinois non profit corporation act does require access to all >> books and records of TSA to any voting member. May be someone can try to >> see if TSA would permit them to visit their offices and look into the >> books and records which includes membership list. I do not think it >> explicitly requires them to provide copying assistance for a nominal fee. >> >Good luck. I remember when three years ago someone asked if >the LCC church in Chicago could have access to the TSA mailing list. >The answer was a big NYET. > >-AEB LCC being another organization not officially connected to TS, it is appropriate that TSA mailing list is not made available to it. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:17:35 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Two-legged Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970224141735.0076f470@mail.eden.com> At 08:51 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: ramadoss@eden.com >> I am just stating the facts. If you have read the latter part of my msg >> you will understand. Some of my best friends and supporters of vegetarian >> diet are meat eating TS members. Also one of the best physicians I use is a >> Jewish person from Arkansas, USA who is an vegetarian. Vegetarianism stands >> on its own feet. >> >Doss, I would be most grateful if vegetarianism stood on it's own two leggies and >wouldn't scream in my face. Believe it or not, I have met some militant >vegetarians in my time that have decided that their cause to make the world >vegetarian meant that they could say any rude thing to me that came into their >head. This type of behavior is very close to what militant evangelical Christians >use when they collar you on the street corner and yell in your face. > >That kind of behavior just puts me on the defensive and makes me want to >eat some meat, just for spite. The most impressive vegetarians I have ever >met are those that quietly and joyfully practice it, without saying a word, offer >me dish to try and then give me the recipe. Enuff said. > >-AEB I am not the militant evangelical type. My approach is to feed delicious veggie food and tempt the eater to vegetarianism. Temptation is a strong thing to resist -- in any kind of temptation! MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:56:43 -0500 (EST) From: Lmhem111@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <970224095643_685078805@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-23 20:12:02 EST, you write: << Eating meat, it is clear, can seriously damage your health. Lucky ol' me has avoided all this by turning veggie about seven years back. One of my better decisions, I think. Alan >> It's true that vegetarianism is a wise choice. Meats, fatty or otherwise, can cause hardening of the arteries and a buildup of cholesterol. My Jewish doctor, who's probably never heard of theosophy, encourages the eating of leafy vegetables and the avoidance of meat, eggs and diary products from the diet. With a history of high blood pressure, I find that keeping the cholesterol down is a matter of practical good sense. I've heard it said that anything dead is toxic, because it is decaying, and therefore unfit for food. Animals are raised on chemicals to produce abnormal growth and weight. Illness and sometimes death have resulted in eating meat containing harmful chemicals from cattle feed. Even flies won't go near the feces of of cattle that have been loaded up with chemical compounds. So if one boasts about eating meat to annoy vegetarians, who is it who's really being harmed in the long run? The vegetarians or the meat eater? Food for thought. LunarPitri ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:12:29 -0500 (EST) From: Lmhem111@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 923 Message-ID: <970224101228_1081072290@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 08:20:47 EST, you write: << I hope with a lot of changes taking place in the world, one of these days we will find veggie fast food. mkr In a vegetarian magazine I used to get, there was mention several years ago of a vegetarian fast-food chain called McDharma's. There were about three to six outlets connected with this chain and it was started in California (of course, where else?). Unfortunately, McDonald's couldn't let well enough alone and sued them. The claim was that the word "McDharma" was too akin to their own trade name. I don't know what the final disposition of the case was or even if the budding chain exists anymore. LunarPitri ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:31:10 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 Lmhem111@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-02-23 20:12:02 EST, you write: > > << Eating meat, it is clear, can seriously damage your health. Lucky ol' > me has avoided all this by turning veggie about seven years back. One > of my better decisions, I think. > > Alan >> > > It's true that vegetarianism is a wise choice. Meats, fatty or otherwise, can > cause hardening of the arteries and a buildup of cholesterol. My Jewish > doctor, who's probably never heard of theosophy, encourages the eating of > leafy vegetables and the avoidance of meat, eggs and diary products from the > diet. With a history of high blood pressure, I find that keeping the > cholesterol down is a matter of practical good sense. I've heard it said that > anything dead is toxic, because it is decaying, and therefore unfit for food. > Animals are raised on chemicals to produce abnormal growth and weight. > Illness and sometimes death have resulted in eating meat containing harmful > chemicals from cattle feed. Even flies won't go near the feces of of cattle > that have been loaded up with chemical compounds. > > So if one boasts about eating meat to annoy vegetarians, who is it who's > really being harmed in the long run? The vegetarians or the meat eater? Food > for thought. > > LunarPitri > A logical and reasoned post. Here is a joke from a comedian about New Age stuff. During performance, he asks the audience to raise their hands if any one is a vegetarian. Some raise their hands. He says, vegetarians eat vegetables. He adds that he is a humanitarian. So what does he eat -- human beings!!! mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:36:42 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 923 Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 Lmhem111@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-02-24 08:20:47 EST, you write: > > << I hope with a lot of changes taking place > in the world, one of these days we will find veggie fast food. > > mkr > > In a vegetarian magazine I used to get, there was mention several years ago > of a vegetarian fast-food chain called McDharma's. There were about three to > six outlets connected with this chain and it was started in California (of > course, where else?). Unfortunately, McDonald's couldn't let well enough > alone and sued them. The claim was that the word "McDharma" was too akin to > their own trade name. I don't know what the final disposition of the case was > or even if the budding chain exists anymore. > > LunarPitri > Today in CA and I believe in other places, when you order a sandwich, tell them to put everything that does not have a face. Then you get vegetarian sandwich. Recently I was at a reasonably expensive hotel and was amazed at the variety of fruits and breads they offered for breakfast. This is in contrast to the traditional breakfast with bacon strips. In schools there is an educational revolution taking place. Children are exposed to the harm due to high fat and I see them avoid high fat food. So the revolution is taking place, rather silently. Next century should see a dramatic shift in the eating habits, I think for the general good, including the animals who too are may friends. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:10:49 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Old Dr. Bain Message-ID: Alan: >In message <199702221341.IAA17199@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" > writes >>But if one spouse was spending a lot of time online, it would >>certainly make the other spouse suspicious. I distinctly remember >>the time my husband asked me how old Dr. Bain was. >Extremely aged and wizened, totally impotent, and not the slightest >danger to women. Quite a good catch if I had any money ... > >Alan :-) No! Another fantasy down the drain!!! And what about those private love posts regarding sharing your secluded cottage... Thoa :o) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 09:11:12 -0800 From: thoa@withoutwalls.com (Thoa Tran) Subject: Food fight! Message-ID: Christine: >MKR wrote >>I agree that a lot of experimentation has to be done and will be done. >>I have been a vegetarian (lacto) all my life and eat spicy food and has >>seen no problem with protein needs. My family is also lacto vegetarian. >>Most of my neighbors think we save a lot of money by being a vegetarian. >> >>Also most of the people in India are >>vegetarians and even those who eat meat only eat may be once a week and >>some only once a month, because meat is very expensive. Also on all holy >>days of Hinduism, no one eats meat. I have known several diabetics and >>have not seen any problem with vegetarian food. >> >Shame on you Doss - this looks like an attempt to impose your view on we >meat eaters. Can you not accept that different matabolisms (perhaps >racially determined), different climates and different lifestyles impose >different dietary requirements. India may be famous for it's gurus, but >not, I think, for its great intellectual and technological genius. Horses >for courses. Am I smelling that old TS lack of respect for difference >emerging here on this list? Christine, I really think that any time that someone voices an opinion is an imposition of views (passive or aggressive, meaning is same). Thus, I know I've been guilty many times, as I am now. And I greatly enjoy it when somebody voices it straight from the heart, and not covered in roses. Roses are nice, but only if they're genuine, and some are covered with thorns. Thus, Doss, Chuckie, Alan, Ann, etc., are all imposing on us. When I was a meat eater, I resented statements that meat eating will prevent you from being in touch with your higher self, as if us meat eaters were doomed to be mired in our muck. As I witnessed, vegetarianism, proclamations of doing good for man/womankind, and spirituality does not prevent people from talking badly of one another, does not prevent people from being control hungry, and does not prevent conflicts among people and within themselves. When I became mostly vegetarian (still love sushi), I kept on being asked whether I would like to share in the meat dishes by people who knew my diet. Worse still, sometimes they would literally wave a plate of steak right under my nose to tease me. This is not because I lectured to them about vegetarianism. In fact, due to my meat eating past, I am very sensitive about staying quiet about it, and making it blend in as much as possible. When I am invited to other people's house for dinner, I do not request special treatment. I just quietly eat the vegetables. On the other hand, my meat eating friends won't stay quiet about it. In fact, this weekend, I went out for Dim Sum with members of this carnivorous household, and THEY wouldn't stop talking about how good meat was and why on earth anyone would want to eat vegetables (with statements like, "Look, Thoa, there's something green approaching.") Finally, I told them that if they keep this up, they're going to start hearing the virtues of vegetarianism from me. I'm going to start writing odes to broccoli. Anyway, forcing habits on yourself before you genuinely believe in it, is self-defeating. It's better to feel your belief first and then change your habit accordingly. Don't change your habit just because you want to be up to other people's standards. Their standards may not be that great, anyhow. BTW, India was one of the earliest birth places of math, sciences, and religion, while most everyone else was busy conquering with clubs. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:07:54 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Outta My Face Message-ID: <970224150748_-1742058046@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-23 14:57:22 EST, you write: >You'll have to tell me where all the good places are. I'm tired of >explaining to >vegetarians that I have hypoglycemia and need to have some solid protein in >my >diet, rather than a lot of carbos. I'm beginning to think all those years I >was so >apologetic about it was a waste of time. Maybe I should just wave a burger >in their >sanctimonious faces and say, "HELL, I JUST LOVE TO EAT MEAT! WHAT'S YOUR >PROBLEM?" > >I've gotten some pretty nasty comments from people, even though they had no >idea I was on a special diet or why. They just plowed in and started >snapping >at me, like a I was Nazi War criminal. > >Well, no more Mrs. Nice Person! If you don't like my food, get outta my face >or >I'll give you the URL to Cosimano's page! > >-AEB > > That's the only way to deal with them. Once you make it real clear you don't care what they think on the matter they have the choice of staying away from you or putting up with your way of living. Usually they do the latter. I haven't had the subject of vegetarianism lectured to me in twenty years. Basically I'm doing a "John Galt" on them. By not being guilty or trying to justify my diet to them, I remove any leverage they may have and they know it. And since I have no interest in appearing to be "good" or "respectable" I can get away with it. I reccommend you do the same. The gyros place is in the little strip shopping center diagonally south-east of the Olcott property, it's called Smoke House and it has the best gyros in the suburbs. I always run over there during convention, in fact eating there is one of the high points of convention for me. And they give you a lot of meat. Chuck ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:18:23 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Eat Your Veggies and live Message-ID: <970224151822_1812739022@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-23 19:49:54 EST, you write: >Eating meat, it is clear, can seriously damage your health. Lucky ol' >me has avoided all this by turning veggie about seven years back. One >of my better decisions, I think. Joing the TS was not one of my better >decisions, so don't blame them. > >Alan Walking across the street can damage your health even more quickly, to say nothing of the interesting things that sex can get you. If I spent any time worrying about health I would consider that time wasted, health being the one subject that absolutely bores me to death. Besides, I like meat even more than I like sex, and have no intention of giving either up until the doctor tells me that I'll die tomorrow if I don't and maybe not even then. Or to put it simply, I eat what I like and don't eat what I don't like. It makes things much more convenient. Chuck the Carnivore ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:22:15 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 921 Message-ID: <970224152148_1812739026@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-23 20:12:45 EST, you write: >As a natural vegetarian, and believing at the time that vegetarianism was a >superior way, I struggled to find which food supplements would work to >replace the meat. I experimented which just about everything until I >finally reconciled to my meat eating status when I discovered that the Dalai >Lama eats meat. ;-) What's good enough for him is good enough for me, I >decided. So whilst the ES was tempting in my early days, it was >inaccessible. Now I think that this was perhaps a good thing. > > In 1981 the Dalai Lama came with entourage to Olcott and the little old ladies were terribly upset to learn that neither he nor his monks were vegetarians. It was great fun to watch them get all upset. But then what the hell did they think people eat in Tibet. All they have is yak burgers and barley. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:31:19 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Two-legged Message-ID: <970224153118_650754526@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 08:50:41 EST, you write: > >That kind of behavior just puts me on the defensive and makes me want to >eat some meat, just for spite. The most impressive vegetarians I have ever >met are those that quietly and joyfully practice it, without saying a word, >offer >me dish to try and then give me the recipe. Enuff said. > >-AEB You just have to make it clear that you eat what you like and anyone who objects can either shut up or go bother someone else and then eat their nuts and berries in someplace warmer than India. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:35:55 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Two-legged Message-ID: <970224153553_1050394084@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 09:22:23 EST, you write: > Vegetarianism stands on its own feet. Right! And the Earth is Flat and the Pope was infallible. >delicious veggie food OXYMORON ALERT!!!!! OXYMORON ALERT!!!!! (sirens and flashing lights as appropriate) (Does anyone get the feeling that some of us are losing patience with this?) Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:40:33 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <970224154029_-2009219223@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 10:31:44 EST, you write: > >So if one boasts about eating meat to annoy vegetarians, who is it who's >really being harmed in the long run? The vegetarians or the meat eater? Food >for thought. > >LunarPitri I'm a bit younger than he is, but, without malice, I will compare my health to Alan's any day. As far as the long run goes, someone who spent his wild and mis-spent youth dodging bullets in alleys, conjures demons for a hobby and puts articles on how to do psionic terrorism on his web page is not likely to be concerned about a few chemicals. Health is a concern of hypochondriacs and sick people. For the rest of us it is a damnable waste of time as is this vegetable foolishness. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:44:36 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <970224154435_-1942105746@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 10:48:05 EST, you write: > >Here is a joke from a comedian about New Age stuff. During performance, >he asks the audience to raise their hands if any one is a vegetarian. >Some raise their hands. He says, vegetarians eat vegetables. He adds that >he is a humanitarian. So what does he eat -- human beings!!! > > Joke, what joke. People are very tasty. See a good, fun web page http://www.paranoia.com/coe/e-sermons/butcher.html Chuck the Humanitarian (is Chuck joking or isn't he?) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:47:38 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <970224154734_786699250@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 12:19:05 EST, you write: > As I witnessed, vegetarianism, >proclamations of doing good for man/womankind, and spirituality does not >prevent people from talking badly of one another, does not prevent people >from being control hungry, and does not prevent conflicts among people and >within themselves. A question for all you good vegetarians out there. Which famous vegetarian celebrates (or would if he were alive) his birthday on April 20? Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:16:51 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <199702242135.QAA03318@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Lmhem111@aol.com > > It's true that vegetarianism is a wise choice. Meats, fatty or otherwise, can > cause hardening of the arteries and a buildup of cholesterol. My Jewish > doctor, who's probably never heard of theosophy, encourages the eating of > leafy vegetables and the avoidance of meat, eggs and diary products from the > diet. I personally know an LCC bishop, a vegetarian from birth, who had triple bypass surgery last spring at the age of 75. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:19:41 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Access to TSA members Message-ID: <199702242135.QAA03338@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > > LCC being another organization not officially connected to TS, it is > appropriate that TSA mailing list is not made available to it. > Many members of the Chicago LCC are members of TS. If the mailing list was accessible to any member of TS, why would those people be denied it? -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:35:43 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <199702242135.QAA03350@cliff.cris.com> > From: Thoa Tran > > I really think that any time that someone voices an opinion is an > imposition of views (passive or aggressive, meaning is same). Thus, I know > I've been guilty many times, as I am now. And I greatly enjoy it when > somebody voices it straight from the heart, and not covered in roses. > Roses are nice, but only if they're genuine, and some are covered with > thorns. Thus, Doss, Chuckie, Alan, Ann, etc., are all imposing on us. Maybe we humans are insecure about someone else doing something different than we are doing. If we are vegetarians or meat-eaters, we try to get those people who are doing the opposite of what we have programmed ourselves to be the same because we are insecure. If there is one other person in the world eating, thinking or looking different than we do, we have to set up some kind mechanism to either convert them or destroy them. > > When I was a meat eater, I resented statements that meat eating will > prevent you from being in touch with your higher self, as if us meat eaters > were doomed to be mired in our muck. As I witnessed, vegetarianism, > proclamations of doing good for man/womankind, and spirituality does not > prevent people from talking badly of one another, does not prevent people > from being control hungry, and does not prevent conflicts among people and > within themselves. > > When I became mostly vegetarian (still love sushi), I kept on being asked > whether I would like to share in the meat dishes by people who knew my > diet. Worse still, sometimes they would literally wave a plate of steak > right under my nose to tease me. This is not because I lectured to them > about vegetarianism. In fact, due to my meat eating past, I am very > sensitive about staying quiet about it, and making it blend in as much as > possible. When I am invited to other people's house for dinner, I do not > request special treatment. I just quietly eat the vegetables. On the > other hand, my meat eating friends won't stay quiet about it. In fact, > this weekend, I went out for Dim Sum with members of this carnivorous > household, and THEY wouldn't stop talking about how good meat was and why > on earth anyone would want to eat vegetables (with statements like, "Look, > Thoa, there's something green approaching.") Finally, I told them that if > they keep this up, they're going to start hearing the virtues of > vegetarianism from me. I'm going to start writing odes to broccoli. When I attended vegetarian luncheons at the LCC, I would always make a vegetarian dish, preparing it the night before with great care. It was something usually so loaded with carbohydrates I couldn't eat it or only a small measured piece. At the luncheon I would watch everyone else wolf down the high carbo casseroles and sweet desserts while I say there with my thermos of high protein, a modest salad and a LaCroix sparkling water. At every retreat the church had out of town, I brought all my own food to get me through the weekend, while they kept eating the high carbos that would me into a lower blood sugar condition. I learned early on NEVER to eat anything I brought in front of the group in the regular dining room, because one time some very prominent theosophical woman started screaming at me at the table, without even asking me why I was doing it. Guess she just thought I was a trouble maker. She has sinced passed on without ever knowing the pain and embarassment she caused me, but I always ate my meals in my room at any of the retreats after that. That incident told me that I was an outcast and should never show my medical weakness in the face of all these high and holy people who call themselves vegetarians. Evidently,.God has singled me out to be a pariah in the midst of all the spiritual people I would love to sit down at the table at. He made me different, now I understand, to realize there are things far worse than eating meat or only veggies. That is making another human being feel like scum because they don't do something you do. -AEB -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:42:06 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <199702242138.QAA04865@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > A question for all you good vegetarians out there. Which famous vegetarian > celebrates (or would if he were alive) his birthday on April 20? > Do I get a prize for this? Hitler? -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 15:44:53 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 921 Message-ID: <199702242141.QAA06217@cliff.cris.com> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > In 1981 the Dalai Lama came with entourage to Olcott and the little old > ladies were terribly upset to learn that neither he nor his monks were > vegetarians. It was great fun to watch them get all upset. > But then what the hell did they think people eat in Tibet. All they have is > yak burgers and barley. > I knew someone who told me she told me vegetarianism was a luxury of a time when people had choices about what they could eat. She said she knew someone who lived in a remote area of Alaska whose main question of her day was how to prepare moose, because that's basically all they had to eat. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:36:21 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Budding 6th-Degree Souls in TS Message-ID: <19970224220048.AAA9715@gschueler.netgsi.com> RI: >I have never liked Krishnamurti all that much; however, in one respect at >least, he was probably the John the Baptist for all the budding Sixth-Degree >souls within the Society. Richard, how many of these "budding souls" do you think there were/are? Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:40:57 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: The H of C Message-ID: <19970224220048.AAB9715@gschueler.netgsi.com> RI--> >On some days I think that the real need is for one organization out of the >myriad which stands for something which CANNOT ultimately be communicated in >words--in short, an organization which keeps all "teachings" subordinate to >individuals' personal development toward Seeing. Such an organization is the Hierarchy of Compassion as described by G de P. Unfortunately, physical organizations have to use words and thoughts. I am convinced that the H of C does exist, and that initiations within it are not only possible, but are ongoing all the time. Initiations by the H of C are infinitely more rewarding, and more meaningful, than those in our physical human organizations. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 17:01:47 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Responses to Richard Message-ID: <19970224220048.AAC9715@gschueler.netgsi.com> RI: >Theos-l has 100+ individuals; >is there some common thing which we all stand for which can be >"communicated in words"? I certainly would hope so. The 3 propositions in the SD, if nothing else. I slightly reworded these in my Enochian Physics, and called them the Three Fundamental Laws of Magick, giving HPG credit, of course. This doubtless caused ripples of apoplexy in some TS arenas, and may be the reason that everything I write for any TS is instantly rejected (?). Anyway, I call them (1) the law of duality, (2) the law of periodicity, and (3) the law of identity. I would think that any magican, occultist, theosophist would adhere to these "laws" in some fashion. >I don't know about you, but I take serious exception >to the circumstance that my teachings may start to be even more >"filtered-out" because I do not see THE SECRET DOCTRINE (and related) in >entirely the same literal way as the entrenched powers within the Society. I have never been "in" and so filteration is not necessary for me. >For example, the last article I submitted (a couple years' ago) was the only >one which the AT has ever rejected (if my memory serves me). I have loved your articles, being the sole attempt of Wheaton to address humor at all. The AT seems to take things too seriously most of the time. >My intention >with "The Next Messenger" was to somewhat amusingly start introducing what I >believe to be the most important component of HPB's Cosmogenesis and >Anthropogenesis: that embedded within their "possibly semi-figurative" >content is a very startlingly practical ~Theosophcal Magical System~ which, >in my opinion, is clearly in advance of the time-honored visualization etc. >approaches. If your trying to get "magic" out of HPB, then your name has probably been placed on the same list as mine as Chuck. IMHO magic is the natural fallout of trying to put the SD into practical application. >Rejection of "The Next Messenger" >stopped me in my tracks, however, for it even further confirmed my suspicion >that the TS may now just as soon prefer ~not~ to have a growing edge--even if >it is possibly HPB's edge. I already figured this out. They rejected my book on how to visit the Globes of HPB's planetary chain or Gupta Vidya Model even though it is fully referenced throughout by the theosophical literature. They wouldn't even consider looking at the typescript. Theory is in, practice is out. >So, what is my next move? Try to start my own organization called IS >(Invisible Sun)? Present the material in little disappearing-upon-reading, >unpolished cyber-snippets on theos-l? I have the same problem, and have not yet decided. Jerry S. Member, TI From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 17:07:45 -0500 From: "Jerry Schueler" Subject: Re: Defining Theosophy Message-ID: <19970224221135.AAA14521@gschueler.netgsi.com> The problem with Jung's disciples, is that they don't all agree. There are a few really major problem areas, perhaps the biggest being synchronicity. When going through my PhD program (which was focused on Jung) I had to switch mentors, because my mentor was a Jungian and did not see synchronicity as I do. He called it "interpretation" but whatever you call it, you have to read the original writing and interpret for yourself. Same with HPB. Jerry S. Member, TI ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 00:29:31 +0100 From: Ozren Skondric Subject: vegetables and stuff Message-ID: <312F9F5B.7E11@kiss.uni-lj.si> Let me add my two.. (something) to this diet discussion It seams to me (and this is highly subjectiv viev) that young people today (at least in my town) are turning vegetarian just because they feel it is right way to be. Again this is higly subjective but some 50 to 60% of people that I call friends are vegetarians and none of them is in any spiritual, or diet organition (OK two are in hare Krishna but that's it), and none of them has health problems that would demand such a diet. All of them are vegetarians because thay feel it is just not right to kill animals for food and I see it is a "heart thing" and not a "mind thing". I seams that it's very dificult to stay with vegetarian diet if it was something one decited to do because of... and much easyer if you're just disgusted with idea of slaughtered animal on your plate, and that seams to be just the case with (some) young people today. As for me I always (since it first crossed my mind) understood vegetarianism as a natural way to be and never tried to balance lack of meat in my diet with anything. The food I eat is some 70% of fresh fruit and vegetables and the rest is some cooked, other than meet stuff. Here is great link if somebody is interested in predominantly fresh fruits and vegetables diet. http://members.gnn.com/chetday/hb.htm By the way, could anybody help me switch from DIGEST to "one mail at a time" mode. Best regards Ozren ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:27:14 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <970224192713_-1574403971@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 16:36:46 EST, you write: > >I personally know an LCC bishop, a vegetarian from birth, who >had triple bypass surgery last spring at the age of 75. > >-AEB > > And my grandfather died of old age at 92 without ever touching a vegetable in his life, including a salad. He hated anything green. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:33:40 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <970224193340_2061497862@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 16:38:00 EST, you write: >He made me different, now I understand, to >realize there are things far worse than eating meat or only veggies. That is >making another human being feel like scum because they don't do something >you do. > >-AEB > > Preach it, sister. And just remember that merely because somebody says something does not imply that the rest of us are under any obligation to listen. Our friends on the list have many good things about them and this weird aberration that forces them to want to control what goes into other people's stomachs will hopefully pass as quickly as vegetables do in my system, exactly two hours. In fact, if I eat chinese food, which has lots of the little green things in it, I have to be certain to be within fast walking distance of a toilet after an hour and a half or terrible things will result. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:39:06 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <970224193758_1382528780@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 16:43:15 EST, you write: >> From: Drpsionic@aol.com >> >> A question for all you good vegetarians out there. Which famous vegetarian >> celebrates (or would if he were alive) his birthday on April 20? >> >Do I get a prize for this? Hitler? > >-AEB Right! Now this is interesting. Jesus Christ (not one of my favorites but there are some folks who like him), The Prophet Mohammed, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, HPB, Col. Olcott, Thomas Edison, and Albert Einstein and lots of Dalai Lamas in various incarnations were all meat eaters. Adolf Hitler, George Arundale, and Indira Ghandi were vegetarians. Do I see a pattern here? Just kidding. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:40:34 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Budding 6th-Degree Souls in TS Message-ID: <970224194033_1913435279@emout07.mail.aol.com> Jerry, Don't look at me. I'm gonna be the Manu of the 7th root race myself. Hoo Boy! Are they gonna have fun! Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:44:29 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Old Dr. Bain Message-ID: <970224194428_-1876221804@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 17:32:27 EST, you write: >No! Another fantasy down the drain!!! And what about those private love >posts regarding sharing your secluded cottage... > >Thoa :o) You have to patient with Dr. Bain. Eating vegetables has had a bad effect on his brain.:) Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:47:13 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: vegetables and stuff Message-ID: <970224194710_820470424@emout18.mail.aol.com> And of the young magicians that hang out with me, none of them are vegetarians or have the slightest desire to become so. But then, hanging around me they don't care about right. Meat just goes better with wine. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:34:54 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225013454.00ba3a1c@mail.eden.com> At 07:45 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-02-24 16:43:15 EST, you write: > >>> From: Drpsionic@aol.com >>> >>> A question for all you good vegetarians out there. Which famous >vegetarian >>> celebrates (or would if he were alive) his birthday on April 20? >>> >>Do I get a prize for this? Hitler? >> >>-AEB > >Right! > >Now this is interesting. Jesus Christ (not one of my favorites but there are >some folks who like him), The Prophet Mohammed, George Washington, Thomas >Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, HPB, Col. Olcott, Thomas Edison, and Albert >Einstein and lots of Dalai Lamas in various incarnations were all meat >eaters. > >Adolf Hitler, George Arundale, and Indira Ghandi were vegetarians. > >Do I see a pattern here? > >Just kidding. > >Chuck the Heretic > Are you sure of Indira Gandhi? I do not think she was a vegetarian. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:38:09 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Responses to Richard Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225013809.00b9a10c@mail.eden.com> At 05:05 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >RI: >>Theos-l has 100+ individuals; >>is there some common thing which we all stand for which can be >>"communicated in words"? > I certainly would hope so. The 3 propositions in the SD, if >nothing else. I slightly reworded these in my Enochian Physics, >and called them the Three Fundamental Laws of Magick, giving >HPG credit, of course. This doubtless caused ripples of >apoplexy in some TS arenas, and may be the reason that >everything I write for any TS is instantly rejected (?). Anyway, >I call them (1) the law of duality, (2) the law of periodicity, >and (3) the law of identity. I would think that any magican, >occultist, theosophist would adhere to these "laws" in some >fashion. > > >>I don't know about you, but I take serious exception >>to the circumstance that my teachings may start to be even more >>"filtered-out" because I do not see THE SECRET DOCTRINE (and related) in >>entirely the same literal way as the entrenched powers within the Society. > I have never been "in" and so filteration is not necessary for me. > > >>For example, the last article I submitted (a couple years' ago) was the >only >>one which the AT has ever rejected (if my memory serves me). > I have loved your articles, being the sole attempt of Wheaton >to address humor at all. The AT seems to take things too seriously most >of the time. > > >>My intention >>with "The Next Messenger" was to somewhat amusingly start introducing what >I >>believe to be the most important component of HPB's Cosmogenesis and >>Anthropogenesis: that embedded within their "possibly semi-figurative" >>content is a very startlingly practical ~Theosophcal Magical System~ >which, >>in my opinion, is clearly in advance of the time-honored visualization >etc. >>approaches. > If your trying to get "magic" out of HPB, then your name has >probably been placed on the same list as mine as Chuck. IMHO magic >is the natural fallout of trying to put the SD into practical application. > > >>Rejection of "The Next Messenger" >>stopped me in my tracks, however, for it even further confirmed my >suspicion >>that the TS may now just as soon prefer ~not~ to have a growing edge--even >if >>it is possibly HPB's edge. > I already figured this out. They rejected my book on how to >visit the Globes of HPB's planetary chain or Gupta Vidya Model even >though it is fully referenced throughout by the theosophical literature. >They wouldn't even consider looking at the typescript. Theory is in, >practice is out. > >>So, what is my next move? Try to start my own organization called IS >>(Invisible Sun)? Present the material in little >disappearing-upon-reading, >>unpolished cyber-snippets on theos-l? > I have the same problem, and have not yet decided. > > >Jerry S. >Member, TI Any and every article TSA rejects, can be published on theos-l for free. Any takers? mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:39:43 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225013943.00baf304@mail.eden.com> At 04:36 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: Lmhem111@aol.com >> >> It's true that vegetarianism is a wise choice. Meats, fatty or otherwise, can >> cause hardening of the arteries and a buildup of cholesterol. My Jewish >> doctor, who's probably never heard of theosophy, encourages the eating of >> leafy vegetables and the avoidance of meat, eggs and diary products from the >> diet. > >I personally know an LCC bishop, a vegetarian from birth, who >had triple bypass surgery last spring at the age of 75. > >-AEB > I think there are too many factors which goes into whether one's arteries gets clogged or not. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:41:05 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Access to TSA members Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225014105.00bb7480@mail.eden.com> At 04:37 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> LCC being another organization not officially connected to TS, it is >> appropriate that TSA mailing list is not made available to it. >> >Many members of the Chicago LCC are members of TS. If the mailing >list was accessible to any member of TS, why would those people be >denied it? > >-AEB May be if the request was made as member of TS, it may have been provided. One has to make a request and test it. Don't be surprised by any response. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:49:10 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225014910.00bacaa4@mail.eden.com> At 04:37 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >condition. I learned early on NEVER to eat anything I brought in >front of the group in the regular dining room, because one time some very >prominent theosophical woman started screaming at me at the table, without >even asking me why I was doing it. Guess she just thought I was a trouble >maker. She has sinced passed on without ever knowing the pain and >embarassment she caused me, but I always ate my meals in my room at >any of the retreats after that. There is an Indian tradition that some orthodox Hindus will never eat in front of others. There are many who will never eat outside of their own homes. It is changing in India. Long time ago there was an article about a Congressman (I believe he is from Illinois area) who was a vegetarian. He has to go to parties in Washington DC every evening and he usually ate at home and went to the parties and usually he ate nothing in the parties except for a cup of coffee. In most parties everyone is busy taking care of themselves that most times no one notices if you ate anything at all. I am adopting his technique and when I go to any dinner or party I eat at home and it has been working very well for me. It is rather disturbing that anyone should scream at anyone for any reason. MKR > >That incident told me that I was an outcast >and should never show my medical weakness in the face of all these >high and holy people who call themselves vegetarians. Evidently,.God has >singled me out to be a pariah in the midst of all the spiritual people I would >love to sit down at the table at. He made me different, now I understand, to >realize there are things far worse than eating meat or only veggies. That is >making another human being feel like scum because they don't do something >you do. > >-AEB > >-AEB > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:52:28 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 921 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225015228.00bb9eb8@mail.eden.com> At 04:43 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: Drpsionic@aol.com >> >> In 1981 the Dalai Lama came with entourage to Olcott and the little old >> ladies were terribly upset to learn that neither he nor his monks were >> vegetarians. It was great fun to watch them get all upset. >> But then what the hell did they think people eat in Tibet. All they have is >> yak burgers and barley. >> >I knew someone who told me she told me vegetarianism was a luxury >of a time when people had choices about what they could eat. She said she >knew someone who lived in a remote area of Alaska whose main question >of her day was how to prepare moose, because that's basically all they >had to eat. > >-AEB In all situations, I think one should use one's god given common sense. It is impractical for example to expect eskimos to be vegetarians. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:53:30 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 921 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225015330.00bc31f8@mail.eden.com> At 03:28 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-02-23 20:12:45 EST, you write: > >>As a natural vegetarian, and believing at the time that vegetarianism was a >>superior way, I struggled to find which food supplements would work to >>replace the meat. I experimented which just about everything until I >>finally reconciled to my meat eating status when I discovered that the Dalai >>Lama eats meat. ;-) What's good enough for him is good enough for me, I >>decided. So whilst the ES was tempting in my early days, it was >>inaccessible. Now I think that this was perhaps a good thing. >> >> > >In 1981 the Dalai Lama came with entourage to Olcott and the little old >ladies were terribly upset to learn that neither he nor his monks were >vegetarians. It was great fun to watch them get all upset. >But then what the hell did they think people eat in Tibet. All they have is >yak burgers and barley. > >Chuck the Heretic > Again see my reply on using some common sense. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:00:59 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Vegetarianism Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225020059.00bbec6c@mail.eden.com> Hi In some States in the US whenever the land is subdivided or land and building are sold, the owner has a right to put in what is known as deed restrictions. It is especially very common in Texas. In the recent past I was aware of two instances when land and building was donated to religious organizations, deed restrictions were put prohibiting either preparing or consuming alcohol, meat, poultry, and sea food on the property. One of them was a building donated to TSA. Another was a land donated to a non-TS organization. In the latter case, I was instrumental in convincing the donors to put in the restriction. In these restrictions, you can put in only what is prohibited and not what should be done. Just in case some one is interested. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:00:30 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <199702250203.VAA07881@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: Drpsionic@aol.com > > Preach it, sister. > > And just remember that merely because somebody says something does not imply > that the rest of us are under any obligation to listen. > > Our friends on the list have many good things about them and this weird > aberration that forces them to want to control what goes into other people's > stomachs will hopefully pass as quickly as vegetables do in my system, > exactly two hours. In fact, if I eat chinese food, which has lots of the > little green things in it, I have to be certain to be within fast walking > distance of a toilet after an hour and a half or terrible things will result. > I tried tofu several times, thinking it was my vegetarian salvation and would make me acceptable in some people's eyes. It always gave me severe gas pains and I had to give it up. -AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:05:36 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Eat Your Veggies and live Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225020536.00bbc318@mail.eden.com> At 03:27 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >Or to put it simply, I eat what I like and don't eat what I don't like. It >makes things much more convenient. > >Chuck the Carnivore Is that not what every one does? MKR, one who does not eat anything with 2 or more legs! ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:08:02 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Most Tasty Meat Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225020802.00bbbb98@mail.eden.com> At 03:49 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-02-24 10:48:05 EST, you write: > >> >>Here is a joke from a comedian about New Age stuff. During performance, >>he asks the audience to raise their hands if any one is a vegetarian. >>Some raise their hands. He says, vegetarians eat vegetables. He adds that >>he is a humanitarian. So what does he eat -- human beings!!! >> >> > >Joke, what joke. People are very tasty. See a good, fun web page > >http://www.paranoia.com/coe/e-sermons/butcher.html > >Chuck the Humanitarian > >(is Chuck joking or isn't he?) Long time ago, I read somewhere that cannibals tell that the most tastiest meat is the palm of human hand. When I tell this, many squirm. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:10:22 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225021022.00bb8718@mail.eden.com> At 12:17 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Christine: >>MKR wrote >>>I agree that a lot of experimentation has to be done and will be done. >>>I have been a vegetarian (lacto) all my life and eat spicy food and has >>>seen no problem with protein needs. My family is also lacto vegetarian. >>>Most of my neighbors think we save a lot of money by being a vegetarian. >>> >>>Also most of the people in India are >>>vegetarians and even those who eat meat only eat may be once a week and >>>some only once a month, because meat is very expensive. Also on all holy >>>days of Hinduism, no one eats meat. I have known several diabetics and >>>have not seen any problem with vegetarian food. >>> >>Shame on you Doss - this looks like an attempt to impose your view on we >>meat eaters. Can you not accept that different matabolisms (perhaps >>racially determined), different climates and different lifestyles impose >>different dietary requirements. India may be famous for it's gurus, but >>not, I think, for its great intellectual and technological genius. Horses >>for courses. Am I smelling that old TS lack of respect for difference >>emerging here on this list? > >Christine, > >I really think that any time that someone voices an opinion is an >imposition of views (passive or aggressive, meaning is same). Thus, I know >I've been guilty many times, as I am now. And I greatly enjoy it when >somebody voices it straight from the heart, and not covered in roses. >Roses are nice, but only if they're genuine, and some are covered with >thorns. Thus, Doss, Chuckie, Alan, Ann, etc., are all imposing on us. > A nice post. However I should clarify. I just stated the facts. The bottom line is what one does is not going to be determined was I or any one says. MKR >When I was a meat eater, I resented statements that meat eating will >prevent you from being in touch with your higher self, as if us meat eaters >were doomed to be mired in our muck. As I witnessed, vegetarianism, >proclamations of doing good for man/womankind, and spirituality does not >prevent people from talking badly of one another, does not prevent people >from being control hungry, and does not prevent conflicts among people and >within themselves. > >When I became mostly vegetarian (still love sushi), I kept on being asked >whether I would like to share in the meat dishes by people who knew my >diet. Worse still, sometimes they would literally wave a plate of steak >right under my nose to tease me. This is not because I lectured to them >about vegetarianism. In fact, due to my meat eating past, I am very >sensitive about staying quiet about it, and making it blend in as much as >possible. When I am invited to other people's house for dinner, I do not >request special treatment. I just quietly eat the vegetables. On the >other hand, my meat eating friends won't stay quiet about it. In fact, >this weekend, I went out for Dim Sum with members of this carnivorous >household, and THEY wouldn't stop talking about how good meat was and why >on earth anyone would want to eat vegetables (with statements like, "Look, >Thoa, there's something green approaching.") Finally, I told them that if >they keep this up, they're going to start hearing the virtues of >vegetarianism from me. I'm going to start writing odes to broccoli. > >Anyway, forcing habits on yourself before you genuinely believe in it, is >self-defeating. It's better to feel your belief first and then change your >habit accordingly. Don't change your habit just because you want to be up >to other people's standards. Their standards may not be that great, >anyhow. > >BTW, India was one of the earliest birth places of math, sciences, and >religion, while most everyone else was busy conquering with clubs. > >Thoa > > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:12:06 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225021206.00bc0d1c@mail.eden.com> At 12:17 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Christine: >>MKR wrote >>>I agree that a lot of experimentation has to be done and will be done. >>>I have been a vegetarian (lacto) all my life and eat spicy food and has >>>seen no problem with protein needs. My family is also lacto vegetarian. >>>Most of my neighbors think we save a lot of money by being a vegetarian. >>> >>>Also most of the people in India are >>>vegetarians and even those who eat meat only eat may be once a week and >>>some only once a month, because meat is very expensive. Also on all holy >>>days of Hinduism, no one eats meat. I have known several diabetics and >>>have not seen any problem with vegetarian food. >>> >>Shame on you Doss - this looks like an attempt to impose your view on we >>meat eaters. Can you not accept that different matabolisms (perhaps >>racially determined), different climates and different lifestyles impose >>different dietary requirements. India may be famous for it's gurus, but >>not, I think, for its great intellectual and technological genius. Horses >>for courses. Am I smelling that old TS lack of respect for difference >>emerging here on this list? > >Christine, > >I really think that any time that someone voices an opinion is an >imposition of views (passive or aggressive, meaning is same). Thus, I know >I've been guilty many times, as I am now. And I greatly enjoy it when >somebody voices it straight from the heart, and not covered in roses. >Roses are nice, but only if they're genuine, and some are covered with >thorns. Thus, Doss, Chuckie, Alan, Ann, etc., are all imposing on us. > >When I was a meat eater, I resented statements that meat eating will >prevent you from being in touch with your higher self, as if us meat eaters >were doomed to be mired in our muck. As I witnessed, vegetarianism, >proclamations of doing good for man/womankind, and spirituality does not >prevent people from talking badly of one another, does not prevent people >from being control hungry, and does not prevent conflicts among people and >within themselves. > >When I became mostly vegetarian (still love sushi), I kept on being asked >whether I would like to share in the meat dishes by people who knew my >diet. Worse still, sometimes they would literally wave a plate of steak >right under my nose to tease me. This is not because I lectured to them >about vegetarianism. In fact, due to my meat eating past, I am very >sensitive about staying quiet about it, and making it blend in as much as >possible. When I am invited to other people's house for dinner, I do not >request special treatment. I just quietly eat the vegetables. On the >other hand, my meat eating friends won't stay quiet about it. In fact, >this weekend, I went out for Dim Sum with members of this carnivorous >household, and THEY wouldn't stop talking about how good meat was and why >on earth anyone would want to eat vegetables (with statements like, "Look, >Thoa, there's something green approaching.") Finally, I told them that if >they keep this up, they're going to start hearing the virtues of >vegetarianism from me. I'm going to start writing odes to broccoli. > >Anyway, forcing habits on yourself before you genuinely believe in it, is >self-defeating. It's better to feel your belief first and then change your >habit accordingly. Don't change your habit just because you want to be up >to other people's standards. Their standards may not be that great, >anyhow. > A good advise. I go still further. Don't do anything to come up or meet other people's standards. I set my own standards and try to live up to it. Then I have nothing to compare about and no one can also complain. mkr >BTW, India was one of the earliest birth places of math, sciences, and >religion, while most everyone else was busy conquering with clubs. > >Thoa > > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:14:06 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225021406.00bc0d1c@mail.eden.com> At 12:17 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Christine: >>MKR wrote >>>I agree that a lot of experimentation has to be done and will be done. >>>I have been a vegetarian (lacto) all my life and eat spicy food and has >>>seen no problem with protein needs. My family is also lacto vegetarian. >>>Most of my neighbors think we save a lot of money by being a vegetarian. >>> >>>Also most of the people in India are >>>vegetarians and even those who eat meat only eat may be once a week and >>>some only once a month, because meat is very expensive. Also on all holy >>>days of Hinduism, no one eats meat. I have known several diabetics and >>>have not seen any problem with vegetarian food. >>> >>Shame on you Doss - this looks like an attempt to impose your view on we >>meat eaters. Can you not accept that different matabolisms (perhaps >>racially determined), different climates and different lifestyles impose >>different dietary requirements. India may be famous for it's gurus, but >>not, I think, for its great intellectual and technological genius. Horses >>for courses. Am I smelling that old TS lack of respect for difference >>emerging here on this list? > >Christine, > >I really think that any time that someone voices an opinion is an >imposition of views (passive or aggressive, meaning is same). Thus, I know >I've been guilty many times, as I am now. And I greatly enjoy it when >somebody voices it straight from the heart, and not covered in roses. >Roses are nice, but only if they're genuine, and some are covered with >thorns. Thus, Doss, Chuckie, Alan, Ann, etc., are all imposing on us. > >When I was a meat eater, I resented statements that meat eating will >prevent you from being in touch with your higher self, as if us meat eaters >were doomed to be mired in our muck. As I witnessed, vegetarianism, >proclamations of doing good for man/womankind, and spirituality does not >prevent people from talking badly of one another, does not prevent people >from being control hungry, and does not prevent conflicts among people and >within themselves. > >When I became mostly vegetarian (still love sushi), I kept on being asked >whether I would like to share in the meat dishes by people who knew my >diet. Worse still, sometimes they would literally wave a plate of steak >right under my nose to tease me. This is not because I lectured to them >about vegetarianism. In fact, due to my meat eating past, I am very >sensitive about staying quiet about it, and making it blend in as much as >possible. When I am invited to other people's house for dinner, I do not >request special treatment. I just quietly eat the vegetables. On the >other hand, my meat eating friends won't stay quiet about it. In fact, >this weekend, I went out for Dim Sum with members of this carnivorous >household, and THEY wouldn't stop talking about how good meat was and why >on earth anyone would want to eat vegetables (with statements like, "Look, >Thoa, there's something green approaching.") Finally, I told them that if >they keep this up, they're going to start hearing the virtues of >vegetarianism from me. I'm going to start writing odes to broccoli. > >Anyway, forcing habits on yourself before you genuinely believe in it, is >self-defeating. It's better to feel your belief first and then change your >habit accordingly. Don't change your habit just because you want to be up >to other people's standards. Their standards may not be that great, >anyhow. > >BTW, India was one of the earliest birth places of math, sciences, and >religion, while most everyone else was busy conquering with clubs. > >Thoa Everyone I deal with know that I am a strict lacto vegetarian and have had no problem any time I went for any dinner or parties. See also my msg about the trick I learnt from a vegetarian Congressman. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:16:18 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225021618.00bcf338@mail.eden.com> At 10:00 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-02-23 20:12:02 EST, you write: > ><< Eating meat, it is clear, can seriously damage your health. Lucky ol' > me has avoided all this by turning veggie about seven years back. One > of my better decisions, I think. > > Alan >> > >It's true that vegetarianism is a wise choice. Meats, fatty or otherwise, can >cause hardening of the arteries and a buildup of cholesterol. My Jewish >doctor, who's probably never heard of theosophy, encourages the eating of >leafy vegetables and the avoidance of meat, eggs and diary products from the >diet. With a history of high blood pressure, I find that keeping the >cholesterol down is a matter of practical good sense. I've heard it said that >anything dead is toxic, because it is decaying, and therefore unfit for food. >Animals are raised on chemicals to produce abnormal growth and weight. >Illness and sometimes death have resulted in eating meat containing harmful >chemicals from cattle feed. Even flies won't go near the feces of of cattle >that have been loaded up with chemical compounds. > >So if one boasts about eating meat to annoy vegetarians, who is it who's >really being harmed in the long run? The vegetarians or the meat eater? Food >for thought. > >LunarPitri A good post. The facts are there for any one interested in. What anyone wants to do with it is their job and it is their life. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:18:31 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 921 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225021831.00bc6038@mail.eden.com> At 08:20 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: m.k. ramadoss >> > >> > Yes. And there is a need for vegetarian fast-food too. Or I need it. And >> > who invented eating anyway? I`d like to have a word with that fellow... >> > >> > Mika 8) >> > >> In Houston you can get Indian Vegetarian fast food. I am sure there must >> be in other large cities like NY, Chicago, LA etc. >> >In Chicago, probably on the north side of the city. That's where a lot of the >vegetarian restaurants are located. It's where the New Agers, >yogis, old Hippies and poor intelligentsia have tended to live. Along with >the wealthy yuppies. > >-AEB Is it in the same area where Indian Grocery and other stores are located? mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:21:53 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: To C. Kent Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225022153.00b9dd90@mail.eden.com> At 08:50 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: C Kent >> >> As a natural vegetarian, and believing at the time that vegetarianism was a >> superior way, I struggled to find which food supplements would work to >> replace the meat. I experimented which just about everything until I >> finally reconciled to my meat eating status when I discovered that the Dalai >> Lama eats meat. ;-) What's good enough for him is good enough for me, I >> decided. So whilst the ES was tempting in my early days, it was >> inaccessible. Now I think that this was perhaps a good thing. > >My husband and I did a lot experimenting with vegetarian diets in the >70's and had to come to the conclusion that it wasn't for us. I have >friends that are both vegetarian and non, some in the same family, so it >makes for creative mealtimes, where the entree is meat for the dad and >kids, while mom has a slice cheese with her veggies. I think it's great >if someone can pull that kind of diet off, but I'd just settle for being able >to eat whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. I haven't been able to do >that for over 20 years. > >Thanks for the infor about the Dalai Lama. Yes, I've met some highly >spiritual meat-eaters in my time, including Stephan Hoeller. It is wrong to measure the level of spirituality of anyone from what they eat. I think the present mind-set of the so called "Leadbeater-Theosophy" says that you should not do this or that to be spiritual. It is going to be very difficult to make these people to open up their minds and eyes and think for themselves and use some god given common sense. It may go a long way to help them in their daily lives they have to live. Just MHO. mkr >> >> I don't think taste is the issue. A western lifestyle in a western body is. >> I could happily be a vegetarian ohmm-ing my life away on a mountaintop, but >> put me in the middle of a large city doing a yuppy job in the corporate >> technological world, and watch me go incompetant (and mad) without meat. >> >Someone once told me that she thought if you were a city-dweller, it was better >to eat meat because it thickened your aura and made you less sensitive to >the different energies of the crowd. > >Eileen and Peter Caddy, who founded the Findhorn Community in Scotland, >were not vegetarians when they ran a hotel. After they left to start Findhorn, >they were directed by angels (devas) to eat only what they grew in their >organic garden, as a vegetarian diet would allow them to be more in contact >with the angelic kingdom. > >At some point, Eileen went into surgery and came back to the community to >recuperate. She wrote of her craving at that time for a good piece of meat, >which she later confided to the person who was taking care of her. That >person ran to the nearest town and bought her some, which she ate and it >speeded her healing. Cayce would have said that it was just something she >needed at that time. > >-AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:24:19 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: To C. Kent Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225022419.00bb1a30@mail.eden.com> At 08:50 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: C Kent >> >> As a natural vegetarian, and believing at the time that vegetarianism was a >> superior way, I struggled to find which food supplements would work to >> replace the meat. I experimented which just about everything until I >> finally reconciled to my meat eating status when I discovered that the Dalai >> Lama eats meat. ;-) What's good enough for him is good enough for me, I >> decided. So whilst the ES was tempting in my early days, it was >> inaccessible. Now I think that this was perhaps a good thing. > >My husband and I did a lot experimenting with vegetarian diets in the >70's and had to come to the conclusion that it wasn't for us. I have >friends that are both vegetarian and non, some in the same family, so it >makes for creative mealtimes, where the entree is meat for the dad and >kids, while mom has a slice cheese with her veggies. I think it's great >if someone can pull that kind of diet off, but I'd just settle for being able >to eat whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. I haven't been able to do >that for over 20 years. > >Thanks for the infor about the Dalai Lama. Yes, I've met some highly >spiritual meat-eaters in my time, including Stephan Hoeller. >> >> I don't think taste is the issue. A western lifestyle in a western body is. >> I could happily be a vegetarian ohmm-ing my life away on a mountaintop, but >> put me in the middle of a large city doing a yuppy job in the corporate >> technological world, and watch me go incompetant (and mad) without meat. >> >Someone once told me that she thought if you were a city-dweller, it was better >to eat meat because it thickened your aura and made you less sensitive to >the different energies of the crowd. I do not have any personal experience on this. May be I am not a sensitive person. So lacto vegetarian diet has been found ok so far all my life, quit a bit of it was spent in large cities. mkr > >Eileen and Peter Caddy, who founded the Findhorn Community in Scotland, >were not vegetarians when they ran a hotel. After they left to start Findhorn, >they were directed by angels (devas) to eat only what they grew in their >organic garden, as a vegetarian diet would allow them to be more in contact >with the angelic kingdom. > >At some point, Eileen went into surgery and came back to the community to >recuperate. She wrote of her craving at that time for a good piece of meat, >which she later confided to the person who was taking care of her. That >person ran to the nearest town and bought her some, which she ate and it >speeded her healing. Cayce would have said that it was just something she >needed at that time. > >-AEB ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:27:50 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Vegetarians and Hospitals Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225022750.00baa308@mail.eden.com> Hi I want to share some with any one who cares. When vegetarians go to hospital in patients, some time it is very difficult to explain to the staff of the dietary restrictions. One time when we told the staff my wife does not eat meat, the staff came back and asked if bacon is ok for breakfast. The trick is this. If you are a vegetarian, just tell the hospital to list the following in your allergies: all animal, poulty, seafood products. The word allergy is taken very seriously and you will be well taken care of. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:32:45 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: vegetables and stuff Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225023245.00bd24e8@mail.eden.com> Thanks for very informative post. To setup yourself to receive all msgs as they are posted, you need to send a message to listserv@vnet.net with the following in the body of the msg. set theos-l mail ack That should do it. mkr At 06:31 PM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >Let me add my two.. (something) to this diet discussion >It seams to me (and this is highly subjectiv viev) that young people >today (at least in my town) are turning vegetarian just because they >feel it is right way to be. Again this is higly subjective but some 50 >to 60% of people that I call friends are vegetarians and none of them is >in any spiritual, or diet organition (OK two are in hare Krishna but >that's it), and none of them has health problems that would demand such >a diet. All of them are vegetarians because thay feel it is just not >right to kill animals for food and I see it is a "heart thing" and not a >"mind thing". I seams that it's very dificult to stay with vegetarian >diet if it was something one decited to do because of... and much easyer >if you're just disgusted with idea of slaughtered animal on your plate, >and that seams to be just the case with (some) young people today. > > As for me I always (since it first crossed my mind) understood >vegetarianism as a natural way to be and never tried to balance lack of >meat in my diet with anything. The food I eat is some 70% of fresh fruit >and vegetables and the rest is some cooked, other than meet stuff. > >Here is great link if somebody is interested in predominantly fresh >fruits and vegetables diet. >http://members.gnn.com/chetday/hb.htm > >By the way, could anybody help me switch from DIGEST to "one mail at a >time" mode. > >Best regards >Ozren > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:41:24 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: ES & TS Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225024124.00bddbe8@mail.eden.com> At 07:59 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >About ES & sex, when I was in it those 3 months, the rule said "no illegal >sex". >Truthfully, that made me feel much more secure around theosophical men, >because I knew they wouldn't make a pass at me, and I didn't need to be on >the defensive with them all the time. On the other hand, "Illegal" excluded >anyone straight or gay in a long term relationship but not married. I >understand that since then they've relaxed the rule a little and will accept >people in long standing relationships, I suppose that covers homosexuals as >well. At the time, it didn't. They would have admitted a homosexual as long >as he\she was celibate. I didn't think that was fair, because straight >ESers weren't being asked to be celibate, so I got out again. I have a gay >son, whom I love very much, and I wasn't about to become member of an >organization to which he couldn't also belong if he wanted to. Over the >years, it turned out, it didn't make him feel good that I quit the ES >because of him, so I said I'd join again if ever I could. I started >rejoining around the time that the TS by-laws were changed. I got so >disgusted with all the conniving going on at the time, that I wrote the >Outer Head "never mind." >In the intervening years, since my first quit, I've gotten a lot of >spiritual training both from Harry Van Gelder and from Serge King, combined >with reading. By now I don't feel that I'm missing out on the much vaunted >ES training. I got it anyway from other teachers. > >So now you got my story, > >Liesel Liesel: Thanks for your msg. Do you recall I had posted a msg on the closing of ES by AB for a year and how it was reopened. One of the reasons that some of the then leaders of TS told AB was that without some external/outside restriction(pressure) the members could not self-control and self-police themselves. Does it not say something? Grown ups need not be told what to do and what not to do? Just for thought. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:45:13 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Where's John the Carrot? Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225024513.00bda644@mail.eden.com> At 08:50 AM 2/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: C Kent > >> I think Chuck said it all. Ever hear broccoli scream? >> >Cayce asked," Does not the carrot scream when you pull it out of the ground?' > >My theory is that everything is being sacrificed all the time. We'll eventually give up >our bodies which go back to the earth, which then is where vegetables are grown and where >grass grazes for cattle. It's just a cycle. > >-AEB This brings to my mind the arguments about death penalty vs life-in prison without parole. In Ernest Wood's book he talks about the debate TS had one time. On the side of those who wanted to abolish death-penalty, the argument was that killing is not right. On the other hand those who believed in Karma and Reincarnation said that instead of incarceration for a long time, it is a good idea to execute the person so that the person would be back soon in a new body without having to go through all the suffering by long term confinement. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:49:48 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Eat Your Veggies and live Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225024948.00bd572c@mail.eden.com> At 07:50 PM 2/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >In message <970223122319_-1139226631@emout10.mail.aol.com>, >Drpsionic@aol.com writes >>The eating of vegetables is an abomination. >> >>People who eat vegetables probably wear white during rituals, which is also >>an abomination. > >Sometimes, Uncle Chucky, you can reach new heights of silliness! here >in the Old Country (as some Americans have called it) we have seen a >very large increase of vegetarianism, mostly because people are afraid >of being killed as a consequence of eating meat, especially beef. Beef >cattle in the tens or even thousands of hundreds have had to be >slaughtered throughout Europe to prevent the spread of "Mad Cow Disease" >which is suspected of being connected to an increase in the incidence of >its human equivalent. Very recently we have seen a number of deaths >directly related to meat eating where the E.Coli virus has found its way >into the food chain among meat consumers. > >Eating meat, it is clear, can seriously damage your health. Lucky ol' >me has avoided all this by turning veggie about seven years back. One >of my better decisions, I think. Joing the TS was not one of my better >decisions, so don't blame them. > >Alan A good post. The fact of the matter is that the world is moving towards vegetarian diet. The ones who are moving are the yuppies and the affluent. Only future can tell how fast this movement is going. At every catered dinner I had gone to, I have always ordered special meals and this is usually a fruit meals because it is very difficult to mess with it. One time I was on a transatlantic flight and I was the only one who asked for the fruit meals and they had brought a ton of fruits and I was asked to help myself all during the 16 hours non stop flight. MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:32:32 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: ES & TS Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, M K Ramadoss wrote: > Liesel: > Do you recall I had posted a msg on the closing of ES by AB for a year and > how it was reopened. > > One of the reasons that some of the then leaders of TS told AB was that > without some external/outside restriction(pressure) the members could not > self-control and self-police themselves. Does it not say something? Grown > ups need not be told what to do and what not to do? Yes! I've long thought that it is not getting into the ES, but rather managing to get oneself kicked out of it that marks one's fitness to meet the Masters. The extreme psychological pressure that accompanies the rigors of the path - as hinted at in the Mahatma Letters - would seem to require people with stoutness of heart and depth of character who would hardly have anything left to learn by prostrating themselves before the authority of the likes of the ES leadership ... who have not even gotten to the point of discrimminating between spiritual qualities and social convention. I propose the creation of the first Theosophical Merit Badge: A snake swallowing its tail, enclosing the interlaced triangles, inside of which is a picture of Chuck with a huge sardonic grin on his face - representing the attitude of one who has understood the bizarre illusions spun by the ES - the Badge to be given to those who quit the ES ... with added clusters for those who go a step further and actually disturb the propriety of the leadership enough to get themselves thrown out. If the SD, the ML, and other glimpses of the Adepts seem to indicate anything, it is that those beings desire humans capable of standing erect on their own feet, not those still desirous of resting on their knees. Tee Hee, -JRC ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 21:57:04 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: ES & TS Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, JRC wrote: > On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, M K Ramadoss wrote: > > Liesel: > > Do you recall I had posted a msg on the closing of ES by AB for a year and > > how it was reopened. > > > > One of the reasons that some of the then leaders of TS told AB was that > > without some external/outside restriction(pressure) the members could not > > self-control and self-police themselves. Does it not say something? Grown > > ups need not be told what to do and what not to do? > > Yes! I've long thought that it is not getting into the ES, but rather > managing to get oneself kicked out of it that marks one's fitness to meet > the Masters. The extreme psychological pressure that accompanies the > rigors of the path - as hinted at in the Mahatma Letters - would seem to > require people with stoutness of heart and depth of character who would > hardly have anything left to learn by prostrating themselves before the > authority of the likes of the ES leadership ... who have not even gotten > to the point of discrimminating between spiritual qualities and social > convention. > > I propose the creation of the first Theosophical Merit Badge: A snake > swallowing its tail, enclosing the interlaced triangles, inside of which > is a picture of Chuck with a huge sardonic grin on his face - representing > the attitude of one who has understood the bizarre illusions spun by the > ES - the Badge to be given to those who quit the ES ... with added > clusters for those who go a step further and actually disturb the > propriety of the leadership enough to get themselves thrown out. > > If the SD, the ML, and other glimpses of the Adepts seem to indicate > anything, it is that those beings desire humans capable of standing erect > on their own feet, not those still desirous of resting on their knees. > > Tee Hee, -JRC IMHO, TS and TSA would be a very dynamic organization today if we had someone like Besant to lead the charge. Besant in spite of what some of us may think her mistakes, she is from the trenches so to speak -- a person who has worked with the London poor and can see understand their conditions and can charge ahead with causes directed towards social improvements. It is that emphasis that was responsible for the huge expansion that took place in TS during her time. There is a nice description of her in an article Dora Kunz wrote years ago and I will post an excerpt soon. I think if each one of us came up with our ideas how we can actively participate in local issues involving the poor and needy and the suffering, over a period of time a momentum can be built up for Theosophy without the oversight or shortsight of the administration. Action is what is needed most. The general tendency in some circles to replace our favorite god or saviour with one of the gurus and just falling their feet may do some good for our psyche and a sense of comaraderie with similar minded folks, but does no good to any of our fellow men and women and creatures. A look at ML clearly indicates that They want action and results. Hope some of us can do what ever little we can and help however little. Just my HO. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 23:05:12 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Olcott's Letter to HX Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970225050512.00698090@mail.eden.com> The following is a very interesting letter that was first published in 1882. Apart from the personal experience of Olcott described in it, it is very significant that when Olcott was chosen as one of the founders of TS, he was not a holy man in the traditional sense - teetotaler, vegetarian, etc. that some recent traditionalists tend to imagine. But one thing that comes out in the historical material is that he was a man of his word and had very great integrity in all he dealt with. No wonder he was able to open up lodges all over the world. MKR ======================== No. 3. ( Letter from Col. Olcott to Mr. H_________X_____). DEAR Mr. X., Colombo, CEYLON, 30th September, 1881. The enclosed card, to the Spiritualist, I had written and put under cover to as early as, the 27th instant-post-dating, so as to correspond with the P. and 0. mail-day--and meant it to go straight to London by this post. But on the night of that day I was awakened from sleep by my Chohan (or Guru, the Brother whose immediate pupil I am) and ordered to send it via Simla so that you might read it. He said that it would serve a useful purpose in helping to settle your mind about the objective reality of the Brothers, as you had confidence in my veracity, and, next to seeing them yourself, would as soon take my word as any other man's to the fact. I have to ask the favor, therefore, of your sending the letter on by the next succeeding post, readdressed to ___________. I can well understand the difficulty of your position-far better I think than H. P. B., who, woman. like, hates to reason. 1 have only to go back to the point where I was in 1874, when 1 first met her, to feel what you require to satisfy you. And so going back, I know that, as I would never have taken anybody's evidence to so astounding a claim as the existence of the Brothers, but required personal experience before I would head the new movement, so must you, a person far more cautious and able than myself, feel now. I got that proof in due time; but for months I was being gradually led out of my spiritualistic Fool's Paradise, and forced to abandon my delusions one by one. My mind was not prepared to give up ideas that had been the growth of 22 years' experiences with mediums and circles. I had a hundred questions to ask and difficulties to be solved. It was not unfit a full year had passed by that I had dug out of the bed-rock of common sense the Rosetta stone that showed me how to read the riddle of direct intercourse with the Brothers. Until then 1 had been provoked and exasperated by the-as I thought-selfish and cruel indifference of H. P. B. to my yearnings after the truth, and the failure of the Brothers to come and instruct me. But now it was all made clear. I had got just as much as I deserved, for I had been ignorantly looking for extraneous help to achieve that which no man ever did achieve except by his own self-development. So as the sweetness of common life had all gone out from me, as I was neither hungry for fame nor money, nor love, and as the gaining of this knowledge and the doing good to my fellow men appeared the highest of all aims to which I could devote my remaining years of life, 1 adopted those habits and encouraged those thoughts that were conducive to the attainment of my ends. After that I had all the proofs I needed, alike of the existence of the Brothers, their wisdom, their psychical powers, and their unselfish devotion to humanity. For six years have I been blessed with this experience, and I am telling you the exact truth in saying that all this time I have known perfect happiness. It has seemed to you "the saddest thing of all" to see me giving up the world and everything that makes the happiness of those living in the world; and yet, after all these years, not only not made an adept, but hardly having achieved one step towards adeptship. These were your words to me and others last year; but if you will only reflect for one moment what it is to transform a worldly man,such as I was in 1874 - a man of clubs, drinking parties, mistresses, a man absorbed in all sorts of worldly public and private undertakings and speculations - into that purest, wisest, noblest and most spiritual of human beings, a BROTHER, you will cease to wonder, or rather you will wonder, how I could ever have struggled out of the swamp at all, and how I could have ever succeeded in gaining the firm straight road. No one knows, until he really tries it, how awful a task it is to subdue all his evil passions and animal instincts, and develop his higher nature. Talk of conquering intemperance or a habit of opium-eating-this self-conquest is a far harder task, I have seen, been taught by, been allowed to visit, and have received visits from the Brothers, but there have been periods when, relapsing into a lower moral state (interiorly) as the result of most unfavourable external conditions, I have for long neither seen them nor received a line from them. From time to time one or another Brother who had been on friendly terms with me (I am acquainted with about a dozen in all ) has become disgusted with me and left me to others, who kindly took their places. Most of all, I regret a certain Magyar philosopher, who had begun to give me a course of instruction in occult dynamics, but was repelled by an outbreak of my old earthly nature. But I shall win him back and the others also, for I have so determined; and whatever a man really WILLS, that he has. No power in the universe, but one, can prevent our seeing whomsoever we will, or knowing whatsoever we desire, and that power is-SELF! Throughout my studies I have tried to obtain my proofs in a valid form. I have known mesmerism for a quarter of a century or more, and make every allowance for self deception and external mental impressions. What I have seen and experienced is, therefore, very satisfactory to myself, though mainly valueless to others. Let me give you one instance: One evening, at New York, after bidding H. P. B. good night, I sat in my bedroom, finishing a cigar and thinking. Suddenly there stood my Chohan beside me. The door had made no noise in opening, if it had been opened, but at any rate there he was. He sat down and conversed with me in subdued tones for some time, and as he seemed in an excellent humor towards me, I asked him a favor. I said I wanted some tangible proof that he had actually been there, and that I had not been seeing a mere illusion or maya conjured up by H. P. B. He laughed, unwound the embroidered Indian cotton fehta he wore on his head, flung it to me, and-was gone. That cloth I still possess, and it bears in one corner the initials ( #) of my Chohan in thread-work. This at least was no hallucination, and so of several other instances I might relate. This same Brother once visited me in the flesh at Bombay, coming in full daylight, and on horse. back. He had me called by a servant into the front room of H. P. B.'s bungalow [she being at the time in the other bangalow talking with those who were there]. He came to scold me roundly for something I had done in T. S. matters, and as H. B. P. was also to blame, he telegraphed to her to come; that is to say, he turned his face and extended his finger in the direction of the place she was in. She came over at once with a rush, and, seeing him, dropped on her knees and paid him reverence. My voice and his had been - heard by those in the other bangalow, but only H. P. B. and I, and the servant, saw him. Another time, two, if not three, persons, sitting in the verandah of my bangalow in the Girgaum compound, saw a Hindu gentleman ride in, dismount under H. P. B.'s portico, and enter her study. They called me, and I went and watched the horse until the visitor came out, remounted and rode off, That also was a Brother, in flesh and bones; but what proof is there of it to offer even to a friend like yourself ? There are many Hindus and many horses. You will find in an old number of the N. Y. World a long account of a reporter's experiences at our headquarters in 47th Street. Among the marvels witnessed, by the eight or ten persons present, was the apparition of a Brother who passed by the window and returned. The room was on the second storey of the house, and there was no balcony to walk on. But this, it may be said, was all an- illusion; that is the trouble of the whole matter; everything of the kind seen by one person is a delusion, if not a lie, to those who did not see it, Each must see for himself, and can alone convince himself. Feeling this, while obeying my Chohan, as I try to do in little as well as great things, and sending you these writings, I do so in the hope, though by no means in the certainty, that your present reliance on my veracity will survive their perusal. I have never, I should mention, kept a diary of my experiences with the Brothers or even of the phenomena I witnessed in connexion with them, There were two reasons for this-first, I have been taught to maintain the closest secrecy in regard to all I saw and heard, except when specially authorised to speak about any particular thing; second, never expecting to be allowed to publish my experiences, I have felt that the less I put on paper the safer. You may possibly glean, if not from personal observation, at any rate from the printed record of my American services of one kind or another, that I am not the sort of man to give up everything, come out as I did, and keep working on as I have done, without having obtained a superabundance of good proofs of the truth of the cause in which I am embarked. And you may possibly say to yourself: " Why should not I, who am more capable of doing good to this cause than a dozen Olcotts, be also favored with proofs ? " The answer you must seek from another quarter; but if my experience is worth anything, I should say that that answer would be in substance however great a man may be at this side of the Himalayas, he begins his relationship with the Brothers on exactly the same terms as the humblest Chela whoever tried to scale their Parnassus; he must "win his way." If you only know how often, within my time even, a deaf ear has been turned to the importunities, both of influential outsiders professing readiness to do everything in the way of personal exertion and liberal gifts, and of our own Fellows, who pretended to be ready to sacrifice the world if the Brothers would only come to them and teach them, you would perhaps be less surprised at their failure to visit you. Events have always proved their wisdom, and so it will be in your case, I fancy; for, if you do see, them, as I hope and trust you may, it will be because you have earned the right to command their presence. The phenomena they have done have all had a purpose, and good has eventually come even from those which brought down upon us for the moment the greatest contumely. As for my mistakes o judgment and H. P. B.'s occasional tom fooleries that is a different affair, and the debits are charged to our respective accounts. My teachers have always told me that the danger of, giving the world complete assurance of their existence is so great, by reason of the low spiritual tone of society, and the ruthless selfishness with which it would seek to drag them, from their seclusion, that it is better to tell only so much as will, excite the curiosity and stimulate the zeal of the worthy minority of metaphysical students, If they can keep just enough oil in the lamp to feed the flame it is all that is required. I do not know whether or not there is any significance in the fact of my Chohan's Visiting me on the night of the 27th, but you may. He made me rise, sit at my table and write from his dictation for an hour or more. There was an expression of anxiety mingled with sternness on his noble face, as there always is when the matter concerns H. P. B., to whom for many years he has been at once father and a devoted guardian. How I do hope you may see him! You would confess, I am sure, that he was the finest possible type of man. I have also personally known-since 1875. He is of quite a different, a gentler, type, yet the bosom friend of the other. They live near each other with a small Buddhist Temple about midway between their houses. In New York, I had ___________'s portrait; my Chohan's; that of another Brother, a Southern Indian Prince; and a colored sketch on China silk of the landscape near ____________'s and my Chohan's residences with a glimpse of the latter's house and of part of the little temple. But the portraits of and the Prince disappeared form the frames one night just before I left for India. I had still another picture, that remarkable port trait of a Yogi about which so much was said in the papers. It too disappeared in New York, but one evening tumbled down through the air before our very eyes, as H. P. B., Damodar and I were conversing in my office at Bombay with (if I remember aright) the Dewan Sankariah of Cochin. You and I will never see Jesus in the flesh, but if you should ever meet, or one or two others whom I might mention, I think you will say that they are near enough our ideal "to satisfy one's longing for the tree of humanity to put forth such a flower." I am ordered to say that you may use this letter as your judgment may dictate after noting carefully its contents. With sincere regards and best wishes, Yours, H. S. OLCOTT. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 21:24:30 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: defining Theosophy Message-ID: <9702250524.AA08427@toto.csustan.edu> TR >This is why I am a little wary of a few of Sinnetts letters >which he claims come from the Masters - especially the later >ones. Like K. Paul Johnson, I think we should keep our eyes open >when reading things attributed to the Masters and I applaud his >scholarship. Unlike Paul, I do happen to believe M, KH et al. >really existed. JHE Which letters are you weary of? Why? I think K Paul Johnson is saying that M and KH did exist. The question he raises is, who were they? JHE >> Rather, I believe that the vast majority of >> TS members are ignorant of HPB's writings, and I would say the >> majority of the management too. TR >Astonishing, but I'd believe it. There seems to be a movement >these days away from reading the classics in a field. When I >studied Jung, for instance, most of my class mates read from >Jungians, not Jung. I have nothing against reading Jungians. >Certainly depth psychology did not stop with Jung, but why >disregard the luminaries that brought the first and often most >vital impulse in a new field? JHE Precisely the argument I have been making for the last twenty years. How can we get the management to hear it? From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 21:25:43 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: astro Info Message-ID: <9702250525.AA08483@toto.csustan.edu> >Ben > >>PS. Does anyone have the astrological chart details for: > >>a) when Blavatsky started TSA in New York >>b) when AB temporarily closed down ES in 1925 > >>Any info would be much appreciated. > > >The Theosophical Society >November 17, 1875 8:00 PM EST >New York, NY > >Long 73W59.5 >Lat 40N45 > >I don't have the b) info at this time. Perhaps JHE would be >able to supply us the date and time? > >-AEB JHE For "a" You might also cast a chart for Sept. 7, 1975, 9:21 P.M. (rectified time) for New York City. This represents the date that the formation of the TS was actually suggested and agreed upon. HPB calls this the "esoteric birth" of the TS. The November date represents the date of the official inauguration at Mott hall. The rectified time was worked out by Rosemary Clark. For "b", I believe you mean the temporary closing of the ES when it was decided that it was no longer necessary because of Krishnamurti's place as world teacher. The date of notification of the American Section was December 10, 1928. I don't have the date of Besant's original order, but should be near that time. Does anyone else have this date? ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 00:32:58 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <970225003257_412897578@emout10.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-24 20:43:06 EST, you write: >Are you sure of Indira Gandhi? I do not think she was a vegetarian. > > I believe that there was some mention of it in the news, but it was a long time ago and I could be wrong. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 00:47:32 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: ES & TS Message-ID: <970225004731_207035960@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-24 22:34:55 EST, you write: >I propose the creation of the first Theosophical Merit Badge: A snake >swallowing its tail, enclosing the interlaced triangles, inside of which >is a picture of Chuck with a huge sardonic grin on his face - representing >the attitude of one who has understood the bizarre illusions spun by the >ES - the Badge to be given to those who quit the ES ... with added >clusters for those who go a step further and actually disturb the >propriety of the leadership enough to get themselves thrown out. I like that. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 00:50:18 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Eat Your Veggies and live Message-ID: <970225005017_1016915514@emout10.mail.aol.com> Doss. In a message dated 97-02-24 23:56:15 EST, you write: > Is that not what every one does? Of course it is, but why does it cause these fights every year? Chuck the Burgerchomping Heretic who eats animals only if they are dead and burned because otherwise he might get killed by the horns. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 00:51:38 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Most Tasty Meat Message-ID: <970225005136_1449672123@emout06.mail.aol.com> Doss, In a message dated 97-02-24 23:56:17 EST, you write: > > Long time ago, I read somewhere that cannibals tell that the most tastiest >meat is the palm of human hand. When I tell this, many squirm. > > Actually, it's the back of the thigh. Chuck the Fountain of Wicked Knowledge ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 00:54:15 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <970225005414_-1641470659@emout12.mail.aol.com> Ann, In a message dated 97-02-24 23:56:19 EST, you write: >I tried tofu several times, thinking it was my vegetarian salvation and would >make me acceptable in some people's eyes. It always gave me severe >gas pains and I had to give it up. > > People who eat tofu probably are gas bags to begin with. I don't understand how Gerda can stand the stuff. It only passes my lips in hot and sour soup and the local Chinese eatery and leaves within the next two hours. Chuck the Speedy Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 22:32:13 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Old Dr. Bain Message-ID: <199702250632.WAA03067@proxy2.ba.best.com> Chuckie: >You have to patient with Dr. Bain. Eating vegetables has had a bad effect on >his brain.:) > >Chuck the Heretic It wasn't his brain I was thinking about... Thoa the Naughty :o) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 22:31:58 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Food fight! Message-ID: <199702250631.WAA02511@proxy2.ba.best.com> Doss: > A nice post. However I should clarify. I just stated the facts. The >bottom line is what one does is not going to be determined was I or any one >says. > >MKR Oh, Doss, it still is an opinion. It's a journalistic opinion in which you pick the facts that will support your point of view. You don't think that the news being spoon fed to us is totally unbiased? Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:34:54 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 926 Message-ID: <199702250634.RAA18112@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> With apologies to the original from which I stole this from, this is addressed to anyone who thinks they know the right way to live, and dedicated to those (like myself) who have had to work out how to survive for ourselves. What if? What if many young people today are inhabiting Aquarian bodies? What if many young people today have Aquarian potentialities? What if these people are struggling to survive in a Piscean world? What if the wisdom of the Piscean elders no longer applies to these people? What if this wisdom actually mitigates against their survival? What if they are having to work out how to survive any which way they can? What if they have to be their own elders, no matter how young they are? What if their bodies are screaming in pain in this Piscean world? What if eating meat helps reduce this pain? What if they are begging you to listen to their trials and what if you elders are too deaf to hear? What if? For Aquarian substitute any more evolved root race/round you like. I constantly get into arguments over this with the retired or conservative TS'ers at my lodge, or even those living hippie lifestyles. Such people can have ABSOLUTELY NO idea what modern young people (anything under 60 by TS standards ;-) working in the corporate world are having to confront in their lives now. Judge not lest ye shall be judged is all I can say to those who preach from on high. >Now this is interesting. Jesus Christ (not one of my favorites but there are >some folks who like him), The Prophet Mohammed, George Washington, Thomas >Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, HPB, Col. Olcott, Thomas Edison, and Albert >Einstein and lots of Dalai Lamas in various incarnations were all meat >eaters. > >Adolf Hitler, George Arundale, and Indira Ghandi were vegetarians. > >Do I see a pattern here? Thanks Chuck, I'll use this one. Anyone know Idi Amin's or Sadam Hussein's diets? mkr wrote >In all situations, I think one should use one's god given common sense. It >is impractical for example to expect Eskimos to be vegetarians. Ah, but are you implying that they are a spiritually inferior race which can never contact their higher selves in such a meat eating incarnation? I'm trying to find something I thought someone (perhaps you) wrote about not being able to get in touch with your higher self if you eat meat. I can't find it, but I would like to ask whoever wrote this, "Who said?". I am tired of patronising and contemptuous comments from superior people who say things like, "you obviously don't understand what working on the higher planes means if you think you can eat meat" I got exactly this one today from an ES'er. To her I asked the questions, "How do you know what I can and can't do? and Who are you to make such a judgment?" To which I was treated to the inevitable quiet smirk. And you wonder why we get a bit touchy on the subject! And another thing - I really resent this stuff about living UP to standards, with the implication that meat eating is DOWN and we will get UP eventually! Christine the irritable - whoops, obviously need more meat. Dang it - got caught again - irritabililty is a sign of some kind of spiritual inferiority or other isn't it. Well we just can't win. ;-) Christine the even more irritable ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:04:06 From: be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (Benjamin Mark Pybus) Subject: [terms of ref.and Q's] Message-ID: MKR, Why on earth would Rukmini call herself an arhat,if it were patently untrue? I've been reading Transactions of Blavatsky lodge where Blavatsky mentions "Mahat is the divine Ideation on our plane." To which plane is she referring? The Cosmic physical plane? Our physical plane? Or the astral plane where much of humanity is unconscious of, but where we all work? What is ULT some people talk of? It sounds like some processed milk, or something very painful! Is it Ernest Wood that wrote "Candles in the Sun"? Is it still in print? Why did Arundale ignore K.'s writing if it is/was acknowledged by Theosophists that he was the new World Teacher? When was Blavatsky kicked out of TS(Adyar) and why? Why is Bailley so disliked by the ESer's when she referred to Blavatsky's Work in many of her texts? Could you give a list of Sri Rams' books?Why is the ES studying these? If Dr. Besant was an Initiate as many seem to suggest why did she have to rely on Leadbeater's clairvoyance? Did she not have the faculty well enough developed?! Love and Light Ben ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 06:06:49 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 926 Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, C Kent wrote: > > With apologies to the original from which I stole this from, this is > addressed to anyone who thinks they know the right way to live, and > dedicated to those (like myself) who have had to work out how to survive for > ourselves. > > What if? > What if many young people today are inhabiting Aquarian bodies? > What if many young people today have Aquarian potentialities? > What if these people are struggling to survive in a Piscean world? > What if the wisdom of the Piscean elders no longer applies to these people? > What if this wisdom actually mitigates against their survival? > What if they are having to work out how to survive any which way they can? > What if they have to be their own elders, no matter how young they are? > What if their bodies are screaming in pain in this Piscean world? > What if eating meat helps reduce this pain? > What if they are begging you to listen to their trials and > what if you elders are too deaf to hear? > What if? There is an old saying that those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know. > > For Aquarian substitute any more evolved root race/round you like. > > I constantly get into arguments over this with the retired or conservative > TS'ers at my lodge, or even those living hippie lifestyles. Such people can > have ABSOLUTELY NO idea what modern young people (anything under 60 by TS > standards ;-) working in the corporate world are having to confront in > their lives now. Judge not lest ye shall be judged is all I can say to > those who preach from on high. > I would like to hear more about the conditions in corporate world. > >Now this is interesting. Jesus Christ (not one of my favorites but there are > >some folks who like him), The Prophet Mohammed, George Washington, Thomas > >Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, HPB, Col. Olcott, Thomas Edison, and Albert > >Einstein and lots of Dalai Lamas in various incarnations were all meat > >eaters. > > > >Adolf Hitler, George Arundale, and Indira Ghandi were vegetarians. > > > >Do I see a pattern here? > > Thanks Chuck, I'll use this one. Anyone know Idi Amin's or Sadam Hussein's > diets? Have you read about what Idi Amin had at the menu of a dinner for all Ambassadors? > > mkr wrote > >In all situations, I think one should use one's god given common sense. It > >is impractical for example to expect Eskimos to be vegetarians. > > Ah, but are you implying that they are a spiritually inferior race which can > never contact their higher selves in such a meat eating incarnation? > First of all I do not know first hand about the higher self. Nor have I met a person yet who tells me convincingly about he/she is in contact with his/her/the higher self. Nor do I know if anyone group of individuals spiritually superior or inferior. I have always claimed each one of us is unique and many of our problems are due to the comparisons in life. > I'm trying to find something I thought someone (perhaps you) wrote about not > being able to get in touch with your higher self if you eat meat. I can't > find it, but I would like to ask whoever wrote this, "Who said?". I am > tired of patronising and contemptuous comments from superior people who say > things like, "you obviously don't understand what working on the higher > planes means if you think you can eat meat" I got exactly this one today > from an ES'er. To her I asked the questions, "How do you know what I can > and can't do? and Who are you to make such a judgment?" To which I was > treated to the inevitable quiet smirk. And you wonder why we get a bit > touchy on the subject! > See my comments above. Will the person who said about getting in touch with our higher self, speak up. I am really very interested to hear. > And another thing - I really resent this stuff about living UP to standards, > with the implication that meat eating is DOWN and we will get UP eventually! > See my comments above. Why compare any one to any one else including ourself? > Christine the irritable - whoops, obviously need more meat. > > Dang it - got caught again - irritabililty is a sign of some kind of > spiritual inferiority or other isn't it. Well we just can't win. > Have we not heard about some people who are self controlled and cool, but are killers and crooks. So irritability is not a sign connected with anything spiritual, IMHO > ;-) > > Christine the even more irritable > MKR From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 21:12:06 +0100 From: "Martin Euser" Subject: Re: "digest 209 - Bible symbolism" Message-ID: <199702252012.VAA19176@venus.euro.net> E. J. wrote> . > > I will get into this at a latter date. Ok. Please cc: it to me then. > [:->>Did you study Alvin Boyd Kuhn on that? > > I will try to locate that little volume -- but, are we not "Pilgrims" -- > "He met a pilgrim shadow -- 'Shadow', said he, 'Where can it be -- This land of > Eldorado?" Yes, we are all pilgrims. BTW, the URL for Kuhn is: http://www.irdg.com/pc93/kuhn.htm Vitvan's writings contain also very pertinent material about the Bible: http://www.irdg.com/pc93/vitvan.htm Martin From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 06:15:52 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: [terms of ref.and Q's] Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Benjamin Mark Pybus wrote: > MKR, > > Why on earth would Rukmini call herself an arhat,if it were patently untrue? Back in 1920s there was a time that several people called themselves arhats and it was a joke. A real arhat would not even give a hint of it. > > I've been reading Transactions of Blavatsky lodge where Blavatsky mentions > "Mahat is the divine Ideation on our plane." To which plane is she > referring? The Cosmic physical plane? Our physical plane? Or the astral > plane where much of humanity is unconscious of, but where we all work? > > What is ULT some people talk of? It sounds like some processed milk, or > something very painful! ULT - United Lodge of Theosophists is one of the organizations in the Theosophical Movement. They have centers in many countries and some one will post a detailed msg on it. > Is it Ernest Wood that wrote "Candles in the Sun"? Is it still in print? It was written by Mrs. Lutyens who was a close person to Krishnamurti. > > Why did Arundale ignore K.'s writing if it is/was acknowledged by > Theosophists that he was the new World Teacher? Who can tell. The fact of the matter is that even today there is a large segment of members of TS who have been benefitted by K's writings. > > When was Blavatsky kicked out of TS(Adyar) and why? > > Why is Bailley so disliked by the ESer's when she referred to Blavatsky's > Work in many of her texts? > > Could you give a list of Sri Rams' books?Why is the ES studying these? Some one who has a copy of the TPH catalog may be able to get a list. I don't think he wrote many books. > > If Dr. Besant was an Initiate as many seem to suggest why did she have to > rely on Leadbeater's clairvoyance? Did she not have the faculty well enough > developed?! Good question. The only thing I got from reading many things written about her is that she was a great orator, a great organizer and a very helpful and kind person. > > Love and Light > > Ben MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 97 9:20:27 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: To exist or not to exist? Message-ID: <199702251420.JAA14286@leo.vsla.edu> Titus's comment about believing, unlike me, that M, KH et all existed, and JHE's rejoinder, set me thinking. No, this won't be any defense of my books, but just consideration of a range of possibilities. There's something about that word "exist" that seems to eliminate all but two possibilities: they did or they didn't. Jerry is right that when forced to choose between one of those two, I'd choose "did." But a scale of belief is more appropriate, e.g.: 1. Belief that M., K.H., and all the other Master figures of Theosophical literature depicted by HPB, CWL and anyone else writing under TS auspices existed precisely as they were described in all these writings. Option 1 has the distinct disadvantage of being *logically* impossible, due to the great contradictions between, say, HPB and CWL on the subject. But that doesn't prevent this option from being chosen by some people; it may be one of the more popular options. 2. Belief that HPB and Olcott are always telling the truth about the Masters, but CWL is fantasizing. Option 2 is still logically impossible in that there are internal contradictions in HPB's accounts, but again that doesn't prevent people from choosing it. The most popular option in ULT and Pasadena circles, supplemented in the latter case with beliefs about Judge, Tingley and Purucker's veracity on their own contacts. 3. Belief that most of the stories told by HPB and Olcott about the Masters have a basis in truth, but that there is a large amount of fictionalization going on; moreover that the Masters get more imaginary afterwards as CWL, Bailey etc. add to the fiction. Option 3 is my own choice and even if my particular nominees for various Master figures are all wrong, this general thesis seems most plausible. 4. Belief that most of the stories told by HPB and Olcott about the Masters are entirely fictional, but that there is some incidental element of historical truth in some of them. 5. Belief that all the claims about the Masters made in Theosophical literature by anyone from HPB down are all fraudulent or at least incorrect. Option 5 has been the standard approach of outside authors for decades, although Peter Washington hedges enough that he might accept option 4. So, Titus, I wouldn't characterize our difference of perspective as a difference between *whether or not* the Masters existed, but rather a difference between how accurate we think HPB's (et al?) portrayal of them was. Perhaps that could be stated as a difference on *how much* M. and K.H. as portrayed by her really existed. It's not an all or nothing choice. Cheers, P. From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:52:33 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Re: [terms of ref.and Q's] Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, m.k. ramadoss wrote: > > Why on earth would Rukmini call herself an arhat,if it were patently untrue? > > Back in 1920s there was a time that several people called themselves > arhats and it was a joke. A real arhat would not even give a hint of it. > Crowley called them "The Inepti". (-:), -JRC ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:30:10 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 929 Message-ID: <199702252230.JAA20057@oznet07.ozemail.com.au> > I would like to hear more about the conditions in corporate world. Talk to any young person around you living in it. Ask them about the physical stresses they are under in terms of physical working conditions which often look good but are really damaging to the health - air-conditioning, sick buildings, unnatural lighting, banks of computers, denuded fast foods etc), and the hours they work including commuting time. The 40 hour week is long gone. Ask them about the emotional conditions such as, smile sweetly while you are required to kill someone or lose your job, concentrate on the politics not the job or you lose your job, grovel to the hierarchy in ways you wouldn't imagine or lose your job, rip off the client or lose your job, cover up for the bosses disasters or you lose your job. Then ask them about the intellectual conditions. Most may be too young to know that they are all using, and some are stressing, their intellectual muscle (the brain) as never before, and short term memory problems are becoming rife wherever high level computer usage is prevalent. Then ask them what devices they use to cope. How they are endeavoring to keep their bodies in any way healthy and what ends they are having to go to to do so? Then ask them how they are caring for themselves emotionally and how they reconcile their private ethics with what they are required to do on behalf of the employer. And ask them how close to their own limits they feel all the time, and whether they fear falling over the edge. Look at the nervous breakdown statistics around you and see how rapidly they are climbing. These aren't false claims - no-one is idiot enough to get themselves classified for nothing. Then ask them what is happening to their brain - this one is pretty unrecognized yet - early days, but I'll make a prediction that there will be a new area of work related injury claim in the next few years. At the moment the victims of brain burn out are simply having to drop out and take menial work, or are being classified as nervous breakdown cases, but soon it will be recognised. >> Ah, but are you implying that they are a spiritually inferior race which can >> never contact their higher selves in such a meat eating incarnation? >> > First of all I do not know first hand about the higher self. Nor >have I met a person yet who tells me convincingly about he/she is in >contact with his/her/the higher self. Nor do I know if anyone group of >individuals spiritually superior or inferior. I have always claimed each >one of us is unique and many of our problems are due to the comparisons >in life. Good, I'm glad to hear it, but tell the vegetarian holier than thou's that at my lodge. You are not the whole of the vegetarian fraternity, and unfortunately this is what they say! And it does take a lot of swallowing to put up with it all the time without fighting back. Is it not obvious from the reactions of the meat eaters on this list that we are HURT for some reason? > Have we not heard about some people who are self controlled and cool, >but are killers and crooks. So irritability is not a sign connected with >anything spiritual, IMHO Yes, and I just love the fact the HPB was the founder of the TS. She was decidedly more hot blooded and irascible than I am (I hope)! Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:38:07 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 929 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970226003807.00ba3254@mail.eden.com> At 05:54 PM 2/25/97 -0500, you wrote: > >> I would like to hear more about the conditions in corporate world. > >Talk to any young person around you living in it. Ask them about the >physical stresses they are under in terms of physical working conditions >which often look good but are really damaging to the health - >air-conditioning, sick buildings, unnatural lighting, banks of computers, >denuded fast foods etc), and the hours they work including commuting time. >The 40 hour week is long gone. Ask them about the emotional conditions such >as, smile sweetly while you are required to kill someone or lose your job, >concentrate on the politics not the job or you lose your job, grovel to the >hierarchy in ways you wouldn't imagine or lose your job, rip off the client >or lose your job, cover up for the bosses disasters or you lose your job. >Then ask them about the intellectual conditions. Most may be too young to >know that they are all using, and some are stressing, their intellectual >muscle (the brain) as never before, and short term memory problems are >becoming rife wherever high level computer usage is prevalent. > >Then ask them what devices they use to cope. How they are endeavoring to >keep their bodies in any way healthy and what ends they are having to go to >to do so? Then ask them how they are caring for themselves emotionally and >how they reconcile their private ethics with what they are required to do on >behalf of the employer. And ask them how close to their own limits they >feel all the time, and whether they fear falling over the edge. Look at the >nervous breakdown statistics around you and see how rapidly they are >climbing. These aren't false claims - no-one is idiot enough to get >themselves classified for nothing. Then ask them what is happening to their >brain - this one is pretty unrecognized yet - early days, but I'll make a >prediction that there will be a new area of work related injury claim in the >next few years. At the moment the victims of brain burn out are simply >having to drop out and take menial work, or are being classified as nervous >breakdown cases, but soon it will be recognised. > Now that you have a first hand experience of the conditions described above, have you considered what your alternatives are? May be if we brain storm and get some ideas, it may help a lot of people who have got caught in the system and by the time most realize where they are heading, it may be too late. >>> Ah, but are you implying that they are a spiritually inferior race which can >>> never contact their higher selves in such a meat eating incarnation? >>> >> First of all I do not know first hand about the higher self. Nor >>have I met a person yet who tells me convincingly about he/she is in >>contact with his/her/the higher self. Nor do I know if anyone group of >>individuals spiritually superior or inferior. I have always claimed each >>one of us is unique and many of our problems are due to the comparisons >>in life. > >Good, I'm glad to hear it, but tell the vegetarian holier than thou's that >at my lodge. You are not the whole of the vegetarian fraternity, and >unfortunately this is what they say! And it does take a lot of swallowing >to put up with it all the time without fighting back. Is it not obvious >from the reactions of the meat eaters on this list that we are HURT for some >reason? > Over a period of time, I have developed thick skin. I think each one of us should go ahead do what each one of us think is good for us. If anyone says anyone is inferior because of eating meat, then it is nonsense. Even Lord Buddha said that what is important is not what goes into the mouth, but what comes out of it. Unless we learn to take an overall view of things, and not concentrate on one aspect of life, we all will miss a lot of things. BTW, did you see my post on the issue of celibacy from Krishnamurti's viewpoint? It was an eyeopener for a lot of us who have got used to traditional model. >> Have we not heard about some people who are self controlled and cool, >>but are killers and crooks. So irritability is not a sign connected with >>anything spiritual, IMHO > >Yes, and I just love the fact the HPB was the founder of the TS. She was >decidedly more hot blooded and irascible than I am (I hope)! > >Christine > And HPB got more accomplished than may 100,000 vegetarian calm individuals. Let us think about her achievements and ask ourself what is really important -- results that help thousands of people or nice conformity to socially accepted norms (including those of "Leadbeater Theosophy Model"). MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:18:48 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: In message <199702242135.QAA03318@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes >I personally know an LCC bishop, a vegetarian from birth, who >had triple bypass surgery last spring at the age of 75. This is often due to smoking the leaves of the tobacco plant, we are told ... presumably a vegetable product. Maybe *how* we use things is relevant! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 00:56:51 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Old Dr. Bain Message-ID: In message <199702241345.IAA02533@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes >> Energies? Ahh, I remember them well ... >> >Are they all gone? You must be dead. An interesting idea - I'll look into it. Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:08:50 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Old Dr. Bain Message-ID: In message , Thoa Tran writes >No! Another fantasy down the drain!!! And what about those private love >posts regarding sharing your secluded cottage... Shhhhhhhh! Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:02:57 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: In message <199702240602.RAA17013@oznet07.ozemail.com.au>, C Kent writes >What about chook, Uncle Dr Alan - is that classified as meat - or lamb, or >pork, or venison, or pheasant or lobster or flake (shark to the >uninitiated). All meats can go rancid and are questionable from a health >point of view, but so is pernicious anaemia. Be careful of that spinach >too. Too much can kill you, you know. Chook? A word I don't know, but I get your drift. I imagine too much anything can kill me (or you). I was not seeking to proselytise for veggies, only to offer an update on eating habits in the UK. Veggie food in supermarkets here is now big business. I am a vegetarian from choice, because I do not want animals killed for my food, that's all. I have found a diet which works for me (not Indian!). As for other people - what they eat is their business, and so is why they eat it. Fried Chucky on toast might tempt some ...... Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:17:08 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: In message <970224154029_-2009219223@emout11.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Health is a concern of hypochondriacs and sick people. For the rest of us it >is a damnable waste of time as is this vegetable foolishness. Health is a concern of hypochondriacs and sick people. For the rest of us it is a damnable waste of time as is this meat foolishness. Either way, we will all do what we think best. I imagine you don't take out health insurance? Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:12:54 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Eat Your Veggies and live Message-ID: In message <970224151822_1812739022@emout14.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >Or to put it simply, I eat what I like and don't eat what I don't like. It >makes things much more convenient. That's what I do. No big deal. Alan PS - be careful crossing the street, you may get run down by a passing cabbagehaving sex with a carrot. --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:41:10 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970226024110.006e0c24@mail.eden.com> At 08:35 PM 2/25/97 -0500, you wrote: >In message <199702240602.RAA17013@oznet07.ozemail.com.au>, C Kent > writes >>What about chook, Uncle Dr Alan - is that classified as meat - or lamb, or >>pork, or venison, or pheasant or lobster or flake (shark to the >>uninitiated). All meats can go rancid and are questionable from a health >>point of view, but so is pernicious anaemia. Be careful of that spinach >>too. Too much can kill you, you know. > >Chook? A word I don't know, but I get your drift. I imagine too much >anything can kill me (or you). I was not seeking to proselytise for >veggies, only to offer an update on eating habits in the UK. Veggie >food in supermarkets here is now big business. I am a vegetarian from >choice, because I do not want animals killed for my food, that's all. I >have found a diet which works for me (not Indian!). > You do not have to be an Indian for vegetarian diet to work? I have a quite a few friends in Texas who are young men and women - mostly white anglos who are vegetarians by choice - what we call here ethical vegetarians -- who do not want to be part of any killing -- and most of them are also active in the animal rights arena. Here too the business is booming and new large store is to be opened in the newest shopping mall. So the general move is in the direction of more veggies. >As for other people - what they eat is their business, and so is why >they eat it. Fried Chucky on toast might tempt some ...... > >Alan >--------- Amen. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:22:17 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: In message <199702242135.QAA03350@cliff.cris.com>, "Ann E. Bermingham" writes >there are things far worse than eating meat or only veggies. That is >making another human being feel like scum because they don't do something >you do. That's telling us! Methinks you are one of those first object supporters - dangerous stuff, this caring about each other! {Energies returning} Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:46:34 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970226024634.006f3a68@mail.eden.com> At 09:18 PM 2/25/97 -0500, you wrote: >In message <970224154029_-2009219223@emout11.mail.aol.com>, >Drpsionic@aol.com writes >>Health is a concern of hypochondriacs and sick people. For the rest of us it >>is a damnable waste of time as is this vegetable foolishness. > >Health is a concern of hypochondriacs and sick people. For the rest of >us it is a damnable waste of time as is this meat foolishness. > >Either way, we will all do what we think best. I imagine you don't take >out health insurance? > >Alan >--------- Good question. Only if one can afford it and qualify for it. Last time, years ago when I applied for health insurance, the insurance company sent an investigator who talked to my neighbors to find out if there is something unusual in my life style - loud drinking parties. sky diving etc. When the insurance company knew of my life style, teetotaler, vegetarian, non smoker, no loud parties etc, the insurance company rushed me a policy. Looks like somebody likes it. MKR ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 22:05:09 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: ES & TS Message-ID: <199702260320.WAA16716@ultra1.dreamscape.com> Yeah, Doss, I don't like to be tols what to do either. I very much dislike being reginemted, and I think in the ES you take orders. Liesel ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 22:20:57 -0500 From: liesel@dreamscape.com (liesel f. deutsch) Subject: Re Alan Message-ID: <199702260336.WAA23678@ultra1.dreamscape.com> >Chuckie: >>You have to patient with Dr. Bain. Eating vegetables has had a bad effect on >>his brain.:) >> >>Chuck the Heretic > >It wasn't his brain I was thinking about... > >Thoa the Naughty :o) > What were you thinking about, Thoa? LFD ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 21:27:57 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: To exist or not to exist? Message-ID: <199702260528.VAA20542@palrel1.hp.com> Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > Which letters are you wary of? Why? I read the Mahatma Letters many times, many moons ago, when I was at UCLA and frequented that section of the library. Since I don't own a copy now, exact references will have to wait. I pay as much attention to the "vibes" in writings as to their words. Many of the later letters contained subtle but distinct tone, hard to verbalize, close to glamor and egotism. > I think K Paul Johnson is saying that M and KH did exist. The question he > raises is, who were they? Careless wording on my part. Apologies to Paul for misrepresenting his work. Interestingly my (Freudian?) slip of the fingers, is probably what most of Paul's critics internally translate his thesis into, namely that he is doing away completely with the idea of Masters. It would explain the knee-jerk reactions of some. Anyway, my terse parenthetical remark was meant to express only a belief (for what it matters) that M and KH were who they said they were in some of the letters attributed to them. Also that others, such as Alice Bailey, Gene Cosgrove ... etc. have also met them. This, I think, is viewed as improbable by Paul. But that's OK. I admire Paul's impartial search for truth and regard him as much more of an inquiring theosophist than many of his critics. And Paul wrote: > So, Titus, I wouldn't characterize our difference of perspective as a > difference between *whether or not* the Masters existed, but rather a > difference between how accurate we think HPB's (et al?) portrayal of them > was. Perhaps that could be stated as a difference on *how much* M. and > K.H. as portrayed by her really existed. It's not an all or nothing choice. I agree that there are contradictions in HPB's portrayal and that her remarks can't always be taken literally. I also agree that one should not blindly accept what any writer says about the Masters (e.g. Elizabeth Claire Prophet - sheesh!) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:21:01 +1100 (EST) From: C Kent Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 930 Message-ID: <199702260621.RAA20314@oznet02.ozemail.com.au> MKR >> I would like to hear more about the conditions in corporate world. CK >Talk to any young person around you living in it. Ask them about the MKR > Now that you have a first hand experience of the conditions described >above, have you considered what your alternatives are? May be if we brain >storm and get some ideas, it may help a lot of people who have got caught in >the system and by the time most realize where they are heading, it may be >too late. It is not a case of what *my* alternatives are, but a case of what *overall* alternatives there are. I cannot condone using the products of a society without being part of the production of those products. Everytime you log your computer on and download your mail, you are using products produced by electricity generation industry, the telecommunications industry and the manufacturing industry, and some poor fool has to provide them for you. My question is how do those of us on the western path of involvement in this material world (I'm sure someone can tell us what ray that is) manage to both live a spiritual life and stay in this mess while we work to improve it. It seems we have to make compromises if we wish to stay in the system enough to be able to act on it to be part of changing it. But I'm open to ideas. My current committment is to ecological issues and I wonder if one of these lists could not be used for a debate such as eco-theosophy or eco-spirit to combine spiritual and ecological discussion? >And HPB got more accomplished than may 100,000 vegetarian calm individuals. >Let us think about her achievements and ask ourself what is really important >-- results that help thousands of people or nice conformity to socially >accepted norms (including those of "Leadbeater Theosophy Model"). By their fruits etc. That is why I have opted to stay in rather than get out, but it's tough going. CK >>What about chook, Uncle Dr Alan - is that classified as meat - or lamb, or >>pork, or venison, or pheasant or lobster or flake (shark to the >>uninitiated). > >Chook? A word I don't know, but I get your drift. Tut tut where is your English Australian dictionary. Don't you get Neighbours over there in the back blocks? Christine ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 04:57:47 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: ES & TS Message-ID: Liesel: I think that if people start thinking then they would come to the same conclusion. Over the years I have become more independent in thinking partially due to the nature of my business where I and only I can take a decision and have to take a decision and no one outside can do it for me 99.99% of the time. So glad to know I am not the only one to think regimentation is not for me. May be there are others for whom it is ok. mkr On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > Yeah, Doss, I don't like to be tols what to do either. I very much dislike > being reginemted, and I think in the ES you take orders. > > Liesel > ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 05:06:12 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: ES & TS Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, m.k. ramadoss wrote: > Liesel: I think that if people start thinking then they would come to > the same conclusion. > > Over the years I have become more independent in thinking partially due > to the nature of my business where I and only I can take a decision and > have to take a decision and no one outside can do it for me 99.99% of the > time. > > So glad to know I am not the only one to think regimentation is not for > me. May be there are others for whom it is ok. > > mkr I forgot to add. I had occassions to see some RC priests in a relaxed settings some time ago. I could see that they are very comfortable in a hierarchical set up where they look up to their superiors. Thought there is a parallel. When the 1900 letter refered to setting up a Popery, KH really could see what was coming down the pike. mkr > > > On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, liesel f. deutsch wrote: > > > Yeah, Doss, I don't like to be tols what to do either. I very much dislike > > being reginemted, and I think in the ES you take orders. > > > > Liesel From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 07:16:29 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Food for Thought Message-ID: <199702261313.IAA18994@cliff.cris.com> Hello theos-l folks! I'm throwing one last ingredient into the beef stew before I depart the list. I have things to catch up on and I will ketchup with you all later. -AEB --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is known esoterically that the vegetable kingdom is the transmitter and the transformer of the vital pranic fluid to the other forms of life on our planet . . . Those who seek to read the Akashic records, or who endeavour to work upon the astral correctly, have perforce and without exception to be strict vegetarians. It is this ancient Atlantean lore which lies behind the vegetarian's insistence upon the necessity for a vegetarian diet, and which gives force and truth to this injunction. . . . But unless the goal of a vegetarian diet is this field of service, the arguments for its following and for that form of diet are usually futile and of no real moment. (14-241) "No set diet could be entirely correct for a group of people on differing rays, of different temperaments and equipment, and of various ages. Individuals are everyone of them unlike on some point; they require to find out what it is that they, as individuals, need, in that manner their bodily requirements can best be met, and what type of substances can enable them best to serve. Each person must find this out for himself. There is no group diet. No enforced elimination of meat is required, or strict vegetarians diet compulsory. There are phases of life, and sometimes entire incarnations, where in an aspirant subjects himself to a discipline of food, just as there may be other phases or an entire life wherein a strict celibacy is temporarily enforced. But there are other life cycles and incarnations wherein the disciple's interest and his service lie in other directions. There are later incarnations where there is no thought about the physical body, and a man works free of the diet complex, and lives without concentration upon the form life, eating that food which is best available and can sustain his life efficacy. In preparation for certain initiations,, a vegetable diet has been in the past deemed essential. But that has not always been the case, and many disciples prematurely regard themselves as in preparation for initiation. (17-334)" >From "Serving Humanity", Alice Bailey, Lucis Publishing Co., pgs. 203-4. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:07:51 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 926 Message-ID: <970226150750_-1708261610@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-25 02:38:03 EST, you write: >Christine the irritable - whoops, obviously need more meat. Just keep giving them hell. They deserve it. Chuck the Fierce ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:17:08 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <970226151706_475919905@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-25 20:36:09 EST, you write: > Fried Chucky on toast might tempt some ...... But Alan would have to be marinated for a considerable time. Chuck the Chef ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:19:48 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: [terms of ref.and Q's] Message-ID: <970226151413_-1708261603@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-25 09:53:40 EST, you write: >On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, m.k. ramadoss wrote: Why on earth would Rukmini call herself an arhat,if it were patently untrue? >> Because she was either an idiot or crazy or both. Or maybe, like her husband, a congenital liar. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:23:40 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Eat Your Veggies and live Message-ID: <970226152336_718890792@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-25 21:55:42 EST, you write: > >PS - be careful crossing the street, you may get run down by a passing >cabbagehaving sex with a carrot. Especially if it's driving a truck. Chuck ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:25:47 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: <970226152527_850855722@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-25 21:59:34 EST, you write: >-- who do not want to be part of any killing -- They eat their carrots alive? Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:34:13 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 929 Message-ID: <970226153116_106577073@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-25 23:52:53 EST, you write: > Is it not obvious >from the reactions of the meat eaters on this list that we are HURT for some >reason? No, we aren't hurt. WE'RE PISSED!!!! Chuck the Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:40:00 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Bungee Jumping Message-ID: <199702262036.PAA24620@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: theos-l@vnet.net > > Good question. Only if one can afford it and qualify for it. > > Last time, years ago when I applied for health insurance, the > insurance company sent an investigator who talked to my neighbors to find > out if there is something unusual in my life style - loud drinking parties. > sky diving etc. When the insurance company knew of my life style, > teetotaler, vegetarian, non smoker, no loud parties etc, the insurance > company rushed me a policy. Looks like somebody likes it. > > MKR Did they ask about your driving habits? The psychological condition of your relatives? Whether you owned any dangerous animals? What is the hereditary health pattern of your ancestors? Did they inquire as to your sexual orientation and whether you were monogamous? If not, I think they did a rather poor job as to assessing whether you were a good risk. Besides, how would your neighbors know if you were sky-diving? You could be telling them that you're leaving for church every Sunday morning and go bungee jumping. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 97 16:53:47 EST From: "K. Paul Johnson" Subject: Ambivalent about Meateating Message-ID: <199702262153.QAA01360@leo.vsla.edu> I can certainly agree with the meateaters that "holier-than-thou" vegetarianism is a blight on the TS. Up front I should say that I'm a non-mammal-eater but eat seafood and fowl. Apart from the well-documented health risks of red meat, the ecological problems associated with hog and cattle production, and the fact that Cayce advises against it, there is a certain moral issue about what species are "too close for comfort." I'd hope even reprobates like Chuck would oppose eating dolphins or apes, since they are just too highly evolved to be dinner. Pigs are smarter than dogs, which should give people pause about eating them. But the gist of this post is about cattle. Even though I don't eat them, I live in a rolling part of the Piedmont that is full of cattle and horse farms. Every day driving back and forth to work I see hundreds of cattle placidly grazing in beautiful fields. I don't like to think of them vanishing from the landscape, and they would do so if the world became vegetarian. Dairy farms are few and far between around here. In India, especially in Delhi, I remember the huge amount of cattle wandering the streets, gaunt and homeless. Being sacred kept them from being eaten or hurt, but it didn't give their lives much worth living for. And the question I keep wondering about is, given the choice to be reborn as a homeless and gaunt sacred cow in an Indian city, or a sleek and well-fed cow on a beautiful Virginia farm, which would be better? To live a life of comfort and beauty, suddenly to be hauled away and slaughtered one day, or to live a life of deprivation and wandering knowing that at least I wouldn't end up in a slaughterhouse? Not a very clearcut situation. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:57:24 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: [terms of ref.and Q's] Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-02-25 09:53:40 EST, you write: > > >On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, m.k. ramadoss wrote: > Why on earth would Rukmini call herself an arhat,if it were patently > untrue? > >> > Because she was either an idiot or crazy or both. > > Or maybe, like her husband, a congenital liar. > > Chuck the Heretic Chuck: I am being mis-quoted. That was not mine. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:58:31 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-02-25 21:59:34 EST, you write: > > >-- who do not want to be part of any killing -- > > They eat their carrots alive? > > Chuck the Heretic > Whatever they like. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:02:49 -0600 (CST) From: "m.k. ramadoss" Subject: Re: Bungee Jumping Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Ann E. Bermingham wrote: > ---------- > > From: theos-l@vnet.net > > > > Good question. Only if one can afford it and qualify for it. > > > > Last time, years ago when I applied for health insurance, the > > insurance company sent an investigator who talked to my neighbors to find > > out if there is something unusual in my life style - loud drinking parties. > > sky diving etc. When the insurance company knew of my life style, > > teetotaler, vegetarian, non smoker, no loud parties etc, the insurance > > company rushed me a policy. Looks like somebody likes it. > > > > MKR > Did they ask about your driving habits? The psychological condition of > your relatives? Whether you owned any dangerous animals? What is the > hereditary health pattern of your ancestors? Did they inquire as to your > sexual orientation and whether you were monogamous? If not, I think they > did a rather poor job as to assessing whether you were a good risk. > Besides, how would your neighbors know if you were sky-diving? > You could be telling them that you're leaving for > church every Sunday morning and go bungee jumping. > > -AEB > > It was several years ago. I am sure there were a lot of other questions in the application. As for driving habits, they check with the DPS records and the investigator who came by took a note of the license plates numbers of my cars. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:43:15 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Food fight! Message-ID: <199702262243.OAA29341@proxy3.ba.best.com> Ann: >That incident told me that I was an outcast >and should never show my medical weakness in the face of all these >high and holy people who call themselves vegetarians. Evidently,.God has >singled me out to be a pariah in the midst of all the spiritual people I would >love to sit down at the table at. He made me different, now I understand, to >realize there are things far worse than eating meat or only veggies. That is >making another human being feel like scum because they don't do something >you do. One great thing about being made to feel like a scum is that once you get back on your dignified feet, you learn to trust your own judgment more than anybody else's. Experience of abuse under someone else's hand makes you realize that you're better off putting yourself in your own hands. After that self-esteem is diamond strong, nobody can say anything that will make you doubt yourself. If you are in error, it is because you have figured out for yourself that you are in error, instead of someone else making you feel like you're in error. Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Food fight! Message-ID: <199702262243.OAA29995@proxy3.ba.best.com> Hey you meat eaters, Just letting you know that McDonald's is having a $.55 sale on Big Macs, and if you don't get it in 55 seconds, you get a coupon for a free one, I think. Boy, I missed their special sauce. Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:44:03 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Regarding the Corporate World Message-ID: <199702262244.OAA00768@proxy3.ba.best.com> Christine: Talk to any young person around you living in it. Ask them about the physical stresses they are under in terms of physical working conditions which often look good but are really damaging to the health - air-conditioning, sick buildings, unnatural lighting, banks of computers, denuded fast foods etc), and the hours they work including commuting time. The 40 hour week is long gone. Ask them about the emotional conditions such as, smile sweetly while you are required to kill someone or lose your job, concentrate on the politics not the job or you lose your job, grovel to the hierarchy in ways you wouldn't imagine or lose your job, rip off the client or lose your job, cover up for the bosses disasters or you lose your job. Then ask them about the intellectual conditions. Most may be too young to know that they are all using, and some are stressing, their intellectual muscle (the brain) as never before, and short term memory problems are becoming rife wherever high level computer usage is prevalent. Then ask them what devices they use to cope. How they are endeavoring to keep their bodies in any way healthy and what ends they are having to go to to do so? Then ask them how they are caring for themselves emotionally and how they reconcile their private ethics with what they are required to do on behalf of the employer. And ask them how close to their own limits they feel all the time, and whether they fear falling over the edge. Look at the nervous breakdown statistics around you and see how rapidly they are climbing. These aren't false claims - no-one is idiot enough to get themselves classified for nothing. Then ask them what is happening to their brain - this one is pretty unrecognized yet - early days, but I'll make a prediction that there will be a new area of work related injury claim in the next few years. At the moment the victims of brain burn out are simply having to drop out and take menial work, or are being classified as nervous breakdown cases, but soon it will be recognised. ************************************************************* Thoa: It's true. The corporate world has gotten to the point where working the 40 hours a week is no longer considered adequate. Also, modern technology have only made things worse. It has raised expectations that results will be received quickly and accurately. Thus, there is no excuse for not meeting a deadline. If your computer breaks down or you have to go home, go to your lap top. If your e-mail system crashes, there is the regular fax machine. If those things fail, there is always overnight or same day mail for your finished documentation. If everything in your office fails, there is your neighbor in the building. And if the whole building fails, well, everyone's home is now equipped with fax, e-mail, and a computer (myself and everyone I know, anyway). Records are stored in the disks, in hard copies, and in home computers. You can be reached by phone, by e-mail, by fax, by beeper, and by snail mail (but who uses that anymore?). Some people are required to travel often without consideration of their weekend or family times. The line between work and home life have completely blurred. With all these stresses, no wonder people are at each other's throats and feel that in order to survive, they need to rip other people's throats. Since people feel paranoid that they will get blamed for things, they become controlling and aggressive. I've been, off and on, in the corporate environment since my student days, when I had to work my way through school. At my previous employment for a giant Japanese company, nobody leaves before 8:00 p.m., and they are expected to arrive to work on time. The supervisors, managers and programmers are all expected to have lap tops so that they can work through the weekend for those crunch times, which is most times. Tons of unnecessary paperwork were done to check and doublecheck results so that the parent company would not scold the American section for any mistakes. Everyone has multi duties in order to curb back on the amount of people hired and paid. Gossip and political maneuvers were rife. The way I dealt with this awful atmosphere (for I myself had tons of paperwork to do), was to organize everything. I had my files and the computer to help me organize. I had a list of to dos on my desk. For very urgent things, I placed a sticky on the front of my computer screen. Instead of running around all over the place, I relied on the phone and the e-mail to communicate throughout the company, and when the boss wasn't looking, a paper airplane. When the boss placed something on my desk to do, I asked about the urgency of it. Was it more important than the 10 other stuff she put on my desk? I stood my ground when an unreasonable time frame was given to me. She knew that I am a very competent person and backed off when I told her about the unreasonableness of the time frame. I learned that standing my ground in a friendly and reasonable way was not going to make me lose my job. In fact, working myself to death and accepting everything given to me only created more work and stress for me. There was always more work that can be given to me. I have to control the flow. Several other things I've learned. One is to not indulge in gossip. Gossip only increases your malice toward the person you have to work with. If you're going to spend most of your day with that person, why make yourself feel bad? Also, gossip will spread around and will reach the person you're talking about's ear. Boy, you wouldn't want that! Also, people who are complainers (though I always listen to them with patience and a nod), give a far worse off impression of themselves than the person they're gossiping about. When I listen to those people (and I listen because people need to vent), my thought was that I would not trust this person with my confidential stuff, nor would I trust them to be good friends. I see them more as cowards trying to do malice behind someone's back instead of being upfront with their source of problems. Another, always go out for lunch, even if it's just sitting in your car. Get out of that environment, even if only for an hour! Listen to spiritual tapes as you're wolfing down your sandwich (meat or whatever). Be assertive about having your lunch hour. Make a sacred time for you to do relaxation exercises. Yoga is great for this. After yoga, my body feels loosy goosy. A sense of humor is CRITICAL. It helps distance you from the situation, and is a great tool for making people like you. And in a corporation, people liking you makes a difference between you having an ulcer or not. Also, when people like you, they're more willing to listen to what you have to say, and are more protective of you, instead of acting against you. This also helps you to see the humanity in everyone. I get a good laugh at my boss' mole like ways and how she gets all subservient when the President calls on her. I get along great with her while everyone else can't stand her. That is because I see her as a human being with quirky habits, and am able to treat her as a human being. When you treat people with decency, they will eventually treat you with decency. Again, this doesn't mean you let people step all over you. Assertiveness not aggressiveness. I know I have a more relaxed point of view toward corporations because I never consider myself to be a part of them. I think of myself as one artist, one human being. However, the tips above have helped me in corporations. When I gave my boss my resignation, she tried to get me to come in 2 days a week, I said no. She then tried to get me to come in on weekends, I said no. She then asked about consultation work, I said no. On my last week at work, I was taken out every day of the week and given presents by each department. That is because while everyone else was serious and complaining, I was e-mailing funny statements to everyone but the Japanese managers. Everyone who walked by my desk, I smiled at and joked with. My boss, who usually reprimands everyone else for talking, would not reprimand me. When people complain, I just patiently listen to them. One smiling and kind person can make a big difference in the work atmosphere. And lastly, if you are working in a very demanding job and would like to be a vegetarian, my ex-boss has a way of having a macrobiotic diet, and yet still works from 9-9 every day, and weekends. That woman is hardly ever sick while the rest of us cough up slimy stuff. She goes to an acupuncturist who prescribes packaged food for her. The food is simply prepared every morning before work, and is a balanced mixture of legumes, brown rice, seaweed, and whatever else. When she feels an uneasiness in her body due to stress, she goes to her acupuncturist and feels wonderful afterward. Granted, this is expensive, but is a way of dealing with vegetarianism and a heavy schedule. Before she had that diet, she said, she was overweight, tired Anyway, this was my experience, "your mileage and direction may vary." Thoa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:59:06 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970226225906.00698ec8@mail.eden.com> For anyone interested, here is a real life story: Several years ago, one of my clients was asked to invest in a feed lot operation. In a feedlot operation, calves are housed in buildings and fed and fed until they growup and ready to be sent to slaughterhouse. My client, as is his normal practice, called me and look into it. After I received the info I told him (a) I consider any money he makes is blood money (he knows my strong views on meat very well) and why he needs such money, (2) he does not know anything about operating feedlots and (3) I do not know anything about feedlot operating and he listened and decided not to invest. Couple of years later he found out that he would have lost all his investment had he gone ahead and was very happy he did not go ahead. Even though he was eating meat occassionally, he told me some weeks ago that he quit eating meat since his cholesterol has gone up. He should know better because he is also the physician who takes care of me and my family and my mother. This is one instance in which my putting into action what I believe has helped someone. BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients in businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my business. mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 19:30:51 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <199702270132.UAA04372@newman.concentric.net> ---------- > From: M K Ramadoss > > > BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients in > businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, > prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my > business. > Evidently you don't feel these people are worthy enough to receive your consultation and advice. I consider this to be a form of discrimination based on your own and only your own moral code. I suggest you be more discreet in letting this information about your practice out to the public. If someone you turned down heard about this they may file a lawsuit. And you know how expensive and time-consuming lawsuits can be. In fact you would have turned down any business with any number of my relatives, especially those that emigrated to the US in the twenties. They owned a farm in Czechoslovakia, complete with live chickens and pigs. My mother and grandmother taught me the value of livestock and not to take it for granted, because they knew how difficult it was to bring it from the barnyard to the table. -AEB From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 17:46:29 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: to exist or not to exist? Message-ID: <9702270146.AA22566@toto.csustan.edu> TR >I pay as much attention to the "vibes" in writings as to their >words. Many of the later letters contained subtle but distinct >tone, hard to verbalize, close to glamor and egotism. JHE By "later" I assume you mean later in time, not later in the book, which is not chronological (unless you have the Phillipines version). I would be interested in your identification of those letters, and I would check them to see if there are any physical differences between them and the others, or if they have physical features in common. TR Careless wording on my part. Apologies to Paul for misrepresenting his work. Interestingly my (Freudian?) slip of the fingers, is probably what most of Paul's critics internally translate his thesis into, namely that he is doing away completely with the idea of Masters. It would explain the knee-jerk reactions of some. JHE I think they are offended that Paul's representation of the Masters because it is not consistant with the party line interpretation. Sort of the reaction one would get from the Christian community if someone announced that they found Jesus' physical remains. The reaction would be to discredit the find (and perhaps the finder) because the party line is that Jesus ascended to heaven and left no physical remains. TR Anyway, my terse parenthetical remark was meant to express only a belief (for what it matters) that M and KH were who they said they were in some of the letters attributed to them. Also that others, such as Alice Bailey, Gene Cosgrove ... etc. have also met them. This, I think, is viewed as improbable by Paul. But that's OK. I admire Paul's impartial search for truth and regard him as much more of an inquiring theosophist than many of his critics. JHE Who is Gene Cosgrove? What is his story? ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:23:56 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 930 Message-ID: In message <199702260621.RAA20314@oznet02.ozemail.com.au>, C Kent writes >Tut tut where is your English Australian dictionary. Don't you get >Neighbours over there in the back blocks? Well, they transmit it ... (and Home and Away). I do not watch either. Nothing personal - I watch too much other stuff as it is! Alan :-) --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:31:50 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 922 Message-ID: In message <970226151706_475919905@emout20.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >> Fried Chucky on toast might tempt some ...... > >But Alan would have to be marinated for a considerable time. > >Chuck the Chef Centuries, probably ... Alan the Indedible --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 01:50:13 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 926 Message-ID: In message <199702250634.RAA18112@oznet02.ozemail.com.au>, C Kent writes > >I'm trying to find something I thought someone (perhaps you) wrote about not >being able to get in touch with your higher self if you eat meat. I can't >find it, but I would like to ask whoever wrote this, "Who said?". I am >tired of patronising and contemptuous comments from superior people who say >things like, "you obviously don't understand what working on the higher >planes means if you think you can eat meat" Not quite a reply to your question, but I can vouch for the fact (as I have experienced it) that contacting or working on the "higher planes" worked fine long before I became a vegetarian and long before I stopped smoking. The latter choices are personal, and I do not see them as related to "spiritual development" for anyone except perhaps myself, but even that is probably not relevant, as there will be no veggieburgers or smokes in the next world, IMO, Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:33:36 +0000 From: "Dr. A.M.Bain" Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 929 Message-ID: In message <970226153116_106577073@emout11.mail.aol.com>, Drpsionic@aol.com writes >WE'RE PISSED!!!! > >Chuck the Heretic That's nice dear. In English vernacular you are saying you are very drunk. Alan --------- THEOSOPHY INTERNATIONAL: Ancient Wisdom for a New Age: http://www.nellie2.demon.co.uk/ E-mail: TINT@nellie2.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 20:03:11 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Food fight/Body Wisdom Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Thoa Tran wrote: > One great thing about being made to feel like a scum is that once you get > back on your dignified feet, you learn to trust your own judgment more than > anybody else's. Experience of abuse under someone else's hand makes you > realize that you're better off putting yourself in your own hands. A thousand times yeah to that! My own diet, for what its worth, is an anti-diet. In my teens and early twenties I experimented with all manner of different diets for a variety of different reasons - ethical, health, and "spiritual" - until one day, rather suddenly, I kinda had a flash that, well, that *all* of them were impositions of the rational mind's assumptions *about* the body onto the *body itself* - and that the rational mind's wisdom was almost entirely incompetent in that realm compared to the wisdom of the body itself. Every cell in the body is connected, in an unbroken chain, to predecessors that stretch back literally millions and millions of years .... in each is chemically encoded the *cumulative* knowledge of those countless millenia of cellular interactions with the planetary biosphere. What I discovered was that this knoweldge is *accessable* if one sorta just gets the knack of listening. I stumbled across this after (first) throwing out *all* conscious ideas about diet and food, and just telling the body it was free to feed itself with no judgements superimposed. It took all of a couple of weeks before its "voice" started speaking - or actually, I realized the body's voice had really been speaking all along, in fact speaking quite strongly, but I just hadn't acquired the knack of listening (or for that matter even considered that there was anything to listen *for*). The body (of course!) is *continually* monitoring, at a virtually entirely unconscious level, the moment by moment, second by second chemical and electrical balances within itself and continually adjusting them to even microchanges in its immediate environment. At the surface level, my diet since then has looked quite the hodge-podge. Sometimes it seems to make little difference what I eat (though my hand instinctually goes to organic food in stores, and refuses to drink tap water) - but at other times it seems to be pursuing some mission ... it'll go for a whole week and only eat fruit, in fact occaisionally it will simply not eat for a day or two (I wonder whether the body *itself* decides to do purification fasts when it feels the need). While mostly the diet is vegie, periodically it *will* unmistakeably choose meat. Its desired food changes quite dramatically with the seasons, with the different places I travel to, with different jobs ... in fact a couple of times I've noticed almost a prescient ability in the body ... noticed a couple of times that for a few days my diet had made a sudden and considerable change, and then had an unexpected need to travel somewhere for work arise ... as though the body itself was already adjusting to a change in environment I was not yet consciously aware I was going to be making. Weird. I know this sounds odd ... but the proof's in the pudding and I get ill about once a decade, and even then the body rights itself almost immediately. In fact, counterintuitively enough, I've talked a few friends who had weight problems into trying this and in every case it worked - at first it felt weird, almost naughty, to say the body could eat *anything*, and as much as, it wanted (what the hell kinda diet is *that* one of them asked laughing (-:) ... but the real trick is eating what the *body* wants, not what the emotions are shoveling for their own purposes, or what the mind is imposing to suit its own ideas -- and its suprising how quickly the body's voice differentiates itself from all other promptings when its even given half a chance. I even wonder whether the diet the mind resonates with may, in each person's case, simply be that which is best tuned to that unheard bodywisdom. Perhaps (for instance) Doss has an organism that, for its physiology and life's purpose, would rarely if ever touch meat, while if Ann vehemently refused meat she might on a number of occaisions be going *against* her body's voice. Oh well, I've babbled enough. Good eatin' all, -JRC ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 19:26:01 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Alan Message-ID: <199702270326.TAA27427@proxy2.ba.best.com> Liesel: >>Chuckie: >>>You have to patient with Dr. Bain. Eating vegetables has had a bad effect on >>>his brain.:) >>> >>>Chuck the Heretic >> >>It wasn't his brain I was thinking about... >> >>Thoa the Naughty :o) >> > >What were you thinking about, Thoa? > >LFD Welllllll, it's well-marinated... Thoa :o) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 19:25:38 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <199702270325.TAA27191@proxy2.ba.best.com> Doss: >BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients in >businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, >prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my >business. > >mkr Doss, I can understand your point of view and you follow whatever you like for your business. I know you are thinking of the good of society. However, your policy troubles me. There was a time when businesses would not deal with interracial couples, unmarried couples, homosexual couples, minorities and women because they feel that such people either contribute to the decay of society or, as in the case of women and minorities, they have no business dealing directly with them. You can see how much damage this can do to those people when the feeling was unanimous among businesses. In today's environment, your policy for your business probably does not inconvenience your rejected businesses, but I think you can see my point. Thoa From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:19:31 -0600 From: "Ann E. Bermingham" Subject: Re: Food fight/Body Wisdom Message-ID: <199702270416.XAA14544@cliff.cris.com> > From: JRC > I even wonder whether the diet the mind resonates with may, in > each person's case, simply be that which is best tuned to that unheard > bodywisdom. Perhaps (for instance) Doss has an organism that, for its > physiology and life's purpose, would rarely if ever touch meat, while if > Ann vehemently refused meat she might on a number of occaisions be going > *against* her body's voice. I once read an article about a woman who had lupus that followed the bodywisdom diet that you're talking about. Sometimes she drank gallons of milk and sometimes she ate only fruit. It seemed to help her condition. Even within my limited diet I do much the same - responding to a call for more salads or less red meat and dairy. And there's only so much aspartame I can deal with either. Along these same lines, I'm throwing one last ingredient into the beef stew before I depart the list for a while. I have things to catch up on and I will ketchup with you all later. (Is ketchup a veggie?) -AEB --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is known esoterically that the vegetable kingdom is the transmitter and the transformer of the vital pranic fluid to the other forms of life on our planet . . . Those who seek to read the Akashic records, or who endeavour to work upon the astral correctly, have perforce and without exception to be strict vegetarians. It is this ancient Atlantean lore which lies behind the vegetarian's insistence upon the necessity for a vegetarian diet, and which gives force and truth to this injunction. . . . But unless the goal of a vegetarian diet is this field of service, the arguments for its following and for that form of diet are usually futile and of no real moment. (14-241) "No set diet could be entirely correct for a group of people on differing rays, of different temperaments and equipment, and of various ages. Individuals are everyone of them unlike on some point; they require to find out what it is that they, as individuals, need, in that manner their bodily requirements can best be met, and what type of substances can enable them best to serve. Each person must find this out for himself. There is no group diet. No enforced elimination of meat is required, or strict vegetarians diet compulsory. There are phases of life, and sometimes entire incarnations, where in an aspirant subjects himself to a discipline of food, just as there may be other phases or an entire life wherein a strict celibacy is temporarily enforced. But there are other life cycles and incarnations wherein the disciple's interest and his service lie in other directions. There are later incarnations where there is no thought about the physical body, and a man works free of the diet complex, and lives without concentration upon the form life, eating that food which is best available and can sustain his life efficacy. In preparation for certain initiations,, a vegetable diet has been in the past deemed essential. But that has not always been the case, and many disciples prematurely regard themselves as in preparation for initiation. (17-334)" >From "Serving Humanity", Alice Bailey, Lucis Publishing Co., pgs. 203-4. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 20:52:15 -0800 (PST) From: Thoa Tran Subject: Alan Message-ID: <199702270452.UAA21184@proxy1.ba.best.com> He also often referred to it as Brutus. Thoa :o) ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:13:57 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970227061357.006ef780@mail.eden.com> At 08:38 PM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: M K Ramadoss >> >> >> BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients in >> businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, >> prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my >> business. >> >Evidently you don't feel these people are worthy enough to receive your >consultation and advice. I consider this to be a form of discrimination >based on your own and only your own moral code. I suggest you be >more discreet in letting this information about your practice out to the >public. If someone you turned down heard about this they may file a lawsuit. >And you know how expensive and time-consuming lawsuits can be. > >In fact you would have turned down any business with any number of >my relatives, especially those that emigrated to the US in the twenties. >They owned a farm in Czechoslovakia, complete with live chickens >and pigs. My mother and grandmother taught me the value of livestock >and not to take it for granted, because they knew how difficult it was >to bring it from the barnyard to the table. > >-AEB In consulting business, you can choose your clients like you choose your consultant. So it is the normal way business is done every day. So I see no problem at all. As a matter of fact, I do not take any clients unless they come thru a referral; even then I have a choice. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:23:32 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970227062332.006ef6bc@mail.eden.com> At 10:41 PM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >Doss: >>BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients in >>businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, >>prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my >>business. >> >>mkr > >Doss, I can understand your point of view and you follow whatever you like >for your business. I know you are thinking of the good of society. >However, your policy troubles me. There was a time when businesses would >not deal with interracial couples, unmarried couples, homosexual couples, >minorities and women because they feel that such people either contribute to >the decay of society or, as in the case of women and minorities, they have >no business dealing directly with them. You can see how much damage this >can do to those people when the feeling was unanimous among businesses. In >today's environment, your policy for your business probably does not >inconvenience your rejected businesses, but I think you can see my point. > >Thoa > As they say, there are exceptions to any rule. If there is an emergency situation, that some one badly needs my help, it is always there whether the person is able to pay or not and no matter what kind of business the person is involved in. Such situations have been extremely rare. The other issue that is significant in my line of work is that I get closely involved in the business of my client. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:25:48 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: Food fight/Body Wisdom Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970227062548.00707934@mail.eden.com> At 11:24 PM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >---------- >> From: JRC > >> I even wonder whether the diet the mind resonates with may, in >> each person's case, simply be that which is best tuned to that unheard >> bodywisdom. Perhaps (for instance) Doss has an organism that, for its >> physiology and life's purpose, would rarely if ever touch meat, while if >> Ann vehemently refused meat she might on a number of occaisions be going >> *against* her body's voice. > >I once read an article about a woman who had lupus that followed the >bodywisdom diet that you're talking about. Sometimes she drank gallons of >milk and sometimes she ate only fruit. It seemed to help her condition. >Even within my limited diet I do much the same - responding to a call for >more salads or less red meat and dairy. And there's only so much aspartame I >can deal with either. I was once using aspartame until it started affecting my vision. Then I quit and the vision problems went away. Have you seen the list of serious side effects of aspartame? mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 02:06:37 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Ambivalent about Meateating Message-ID: <970227020634_-1172356211@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-26 17:01:43 EST, you write: > I'd hope even reprobates like Chuck would oppose >eating dolphins or apes, since they are just too highly evolved >to be dinner. I've never had dolphin and probably never will for the same reason that I would never eat rabbit. I think they're cute, whereas the one time I actually saw a hog I avoided pork for a month for fear it would eat me! Then I went back to eating it reasoning that it is better that I eat it first before it gets a chance to eat me. Anyway, I never make moral choices, only emotional or practical ones so a moral argument would never move me anywhere except to the bathroom. Hell you all know that already. Apes would probably be a bit too stringy. Still, properly marinated... Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 02:07:36 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: [terms of ref.and Q's] Message-ID: <970227020736_1582421518@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-26 17:02:34 EST, you write: > >Chuck: I am being mis-quoted. That was not mine. > >mkr I type corrected. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 02:10:03 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Food fight! Message-ID: <970227021002_1980641807@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-26 18:46:29 EST, you write: >Hey you meat eaters, > >Just letting you know that McDonald's is having a $.55 sale on Big Macs, and >if you don't get it in 55 seconds, you get a coupon for a free one, I think. >Boy, I missed their special sauce. > >Thoa > > I'm on my way!!!! Chuck the Hungry Heretic From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 02:13:03 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 926 Message-ID: <970227021302_-937881840@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-26 21:22:49 EST, you write: > as there will be no veggieburgers or >smokes in the next world, IMO, > >Alan I don't know about that. Father's ghost never appears without a cigar. In fact, one time when one of my granparents had a bad car accident and was in the hospital I came home to find the back room of the house filled with cigar smoke and no one in the house was smoking. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 02:14:21 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <970227021420_-2109342703@emout20.mail.aol.com> I prefer the defense group myself. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:15:48 -0800 From: Titus Roth Subject: Re: to exist or not to exist? Message-ID: <199702270715.XAA00404@palrel1.hp.com> Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > By "later" I assume you mean later in time, not later in the > book, which is not chronological (unless you have the Phillipines > version). I would be interested in your identification of those > letters, and I would check them to see if there are any physical > differences between them and the others, or if they have physical > features in common. Yes. Later in time. Physical differences? Do you mean in the actual letters themselves? Such as paper, handwriting ... etc? Are the letters or photographs of them preserved somewhere? Well now you've got me interested in looking. > Who is Gene Cosgrove? What is his story? He was before my time. My spiritual teacher knew him. From her comments and from the few out-of-print books he authored that are in my possession, here is what I know of his story: Eugene Milne Cosgrove was at one time a close associate of Alice Bailey. He withdrew from her teachings to give his students a better understanding of the Christ. My teacher, ARC, said he was an unselfish man devoting himself to small groups throughout the U.S. and Canada, where he moved from his native Scotland. At a minimum he had contact with Master M, though he gave few details of his contact and preferred not to emphasize it much. As he said in one book (approximately), "I say to the student, lay more emphasis on mastering than Masters. Then They will give assistance." His books were very poetic. In the foreward to one book he said he thought there was a seer in every poet. Subjects covered range from meditation to mantrams to group functioning in the Aquarian age. Someone I met at while in school said that a large library of works from people related to AAB is maintained and cross indexed. He actually found a few works of EMC there. Since the books have been out of print for a while, I am photocopying my favorite, "The High Walk of Discipleship". Perhaps remembering EMC, my teacher wrote (excerpts from her book The Pelican and the Chela), When you have become a poet, you have weeded out all unnecessary things to say. When one becomes a poet, he has moved beyond the traffic of the commercial lanes. He has united with the Angels and is standing back of the wings, looking on the stage of life, describing the fanes ... He must timidly approach the pulse-beat in time to reach the heart of saying things which rhyme. Celestial-primed to speak in verse what men have not the courage to converse. Each poet writing in the invisible Sun must give birth to his death of lives many undone. He must tear away the flesh concealing the thrum of his soul ... He must be as a bulldozer scraping out the unclaimed road. He must be a towering building awaiting its erosion by earthquake and time. He must teeter on the edge of life, He must sink down deep in the Earth, breathing its life. He must find the passion to be passionless. He must be a seer, a dancer, a teacher, a preacher. He must be a healer. He must outrage him who sleepeth. In every man, a poet is concealed. The poet who awakens him must find him when he has finished dreaking the bitter of the cup. He must provide him with a clean vessel from which he must sup ... In the Earth, he was a bumbler and mumbler. In the learning, he was a tutor and sender. In his own legislature, he was a parliament made up of building blocks of error and failure ... His brain which was bored and jaded from waiting for its insighting message gave off in repetition events which had long been outdated. The poet is a seer living in houses not made with hands. The poet is a magician, making something out of what men call nothing. The poet is a sage turned inside out, exposed to the acids and winds of self-doubt ... Wherever poetry comes to birth, men are ready for a leap over the graves and dry bones of man's crying, striving and trying. Every poem conceals a burial, a grave, a resurrection. All poets have been stripped of Maya-sense. Caught between Heaven, the limbo and Earth, they must dare to give life to things long dead ... They must have discounted gurus of the mouth, who by speaking overmuch have lost touch with the sacredness of Light ... They must often come with clothing besmirched by the ears of careless listeners who give to give them birth. Poets are lonely, thinking through energized hearts to tell something to the autistic closed minds, who work in the world to be settled but never set ... they are not exhibitionists about things which rhyme. The hammers of their balance are mallets or anvils pounding in the Divine, the beautiful. The wonder of the poet is that he lives at all or that he speaks where there is no call ... The wonder of the poet is that in every age and clime, he rises again, that men may hear within the Universal Rhythm of the Rhyme within the Word. ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 02:20:48 -0500 (EST) From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 929 Message-ID: <970227021645_-1808840302@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-02-26 21:43:35 EST, you write: > >That's nice dear. In English vernacular you are saying you are very >drunk. > >Alan Well, this food thing is certainly driving me to it and good beef is better with a nice Bordeaux. In fact the last time a girlfriend and I went our favorite steakhouse I did get somewhat blitzed because I had a bloody mary before the wine. Anyway, in American vernacular it means mad as all hell. Chuck the Heretic ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:03:16 GMT+2 From: "JOS KOETSIER" Subject: THEOS-L digest 932 RUKMINI Message-ID: <2B15BC5342C@education.uwc.ac.za> On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-02-25 09:53:40 EST, you write: > > >On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, m.k. ramadoss wrote: > Why on earth would Rukmini call herself an arhat,if it were patently > untrue? > >> > Because she was either an idiot or crazy or both. > > Or maybe, like her husband, a congenital liar. > > Chuck the Heretic Chuck: I am being mis-quoted. That was not mine. mkr Bellville, 27.2.1997 I have known Srimati Rukmini Devi for many years and was associated with her between 1975 and 1984. During that period I visited Kalakshetra College of Fine Arts in Tiruvanmiyur near Adyar during half a year and did educational research work. I have appreciated her great commitment towards the cause of education in India. As you might know she and Dr. Arundale made it possible for Maria Montessori to introduce her system of pre-primary education to South Asia. She also founded Kalakshetra, which was in those days one of the most reknown institutions for the Bharatanatyan style of dancing and did a lot in animal welfare work and travelled untill her death round the world to promote Theosophy. I came to know her as a down to earth person. I know that there were controversies around her person but would appreciate if these would be dealt with in an impartial and historically contextualized way. Remarks like reproduced in the above mentioned quote do not bring us anywhere. With kind regards Jos Koetsier Member of the TS in Cape Town South Africa ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:23:52 -0600 From: ramadoss@eden.com Subject: Re: THEOS-L digest 932 RUKMINI Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970227132352.00706238@mail.eden.com> At 03:04 AM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 97-02-25 09:53:40 EST, you write: >> >> >On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, m.k. ramadoss wrote: >> Why on earth would Rukmini call herself an arhat,if it were patently >> untrue? >> >> >> Because she was either an idiot or crazy or both. >> >> Or maybe, like her husband, a congenital liar. >> >> Chuck the Heretic > >Chuck: I am being mis-quoted. That was not mine. > >mkr > >Bellville, 27.2.1997 > >I have known Srimati Rukmini Devi for many years and was associated >with her between 1975 and 1984. During that period I visited >Kalakshetra College of Fine Arts in Tiruvanmiyur near Adyar >during half a year and did educational research work. I have >appreciated her great commitment towards the cause of education in >India. As you might know she and Dr. Arundale made it possible for >Maria Montessori to introduce her system of pre-primary education to >South Asia. She also founded Kalakshetra, which was in those days one >of the most reknown institutions for the Bharatanatyan style of >dancing and did a lot in animal welfare work and travelled untill her >death round the world to promote Theosophy. >I came to know her as a down to earth person. > >I know that there were controversies around her person but would >appreciate if these would be dealt with in an impartial and >historically contextualized way. Remarks like reproduced in the above >mentioned quote do not bring us anywhere. > >With kind regards >Jos Koetsier >Member of the TS in Cape Town South Africa Hi, Jos: As I had stated in a post, I was misquoted and Chuck has responded he mistyped. Even though I did not know her personally, while I was a member and an officer of the TS Lodge in Bangalore, India there were several occassions when I had the opportunity to invite her to come and speak at the lodge. Most of the time she was visiting on Kalashetra or Animal Welfare business, and every time she was invited she always squeezed in to come and deliver a lecture. All the lectures were very practically oriented and were much appreciated. Anyone who has an opportunity to visit Madras has just to go and see Kalashetra and then one can appreciate what she did for art and Indian dance. Some time ago it was made a National University. All this was accomplished by her single handedly. I wanted to add my 2 cents worth, as they say in the USA. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:50:59 -0700 (MST) From: JRC Subject: Canada Lodge? Message-ID: Hey to any Canadian Theosophists out there ... Anyone know if there is a Lodge in or around Vancouver B.C? -JRC ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:47:12 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970227164712.00bfc52c@mail.eden.com> At 01:16 AM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 08:38 PM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >>---------- >>> From: M K Ramadoss >>> >>> >>> BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients in >>> businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, >>> prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my >>> business. >>> >>Evidently you don't feel these people are worthy enough to receive your >>consultation and advice. I consider this to be a form of discrimination >>based on your own and only your own moral code. I suggest you be >>more discreet in letting this information about your practice out to the >>public. If someone you turned down heard about this they may file a lawsuit. >>And you know how expensive and time-consuming lawsuits can be. >> >>In fact you would have turned down any business with any number of >>my relatives, especially those that emigrated to the US in the twenties. >>They owned a farm in Czechoslovakia, complete with live chickens >>and pigs. My mother and grandmother taught me the value of livestock >>and not to take it for granted, because they knew how difficult it was >>to bring it from the barnyard to the table. >> >>-AEB > >In consulting business, you can choose your clients like you choose your >consultant. So it is the normal way business is done every day. So I see no >problem at all. As a matter of fact, I do not take any clients unless they >come thru a referral; even then I have a choice. > >mkr In personal service business, both the provider and receiver has the choice of selection or rejection. A case in point is that sometimes patients want to interview their physician before signing up. I know of physicians who if interviewed, will be very cordial and nice to the prospective patient and after the interview when the patient is ready to hire the physician, there are physicians who routinely will tell the prospect that the physician also has the choice of accepting or not accepting a patient and routinely do decide not to decline to accept the patient. My 2 cents worth. Your mileage and direction may vary. mkr ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:59:38 -0600 From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <2.2.32.19970227165938.00bdbcc8@mail.eden.com> At 11:54 AM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 01:16 AM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >>At 08:38 PM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >>>---------- >>>> From: M K Ramadoss >>>> >>>> >>>> BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients in >>>> businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, >>>> prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my >>>> business. >>>> >>>Evidently you don't feel these people are worthy enough to receive your >>>consultation and advice. I consider this to be a form of discrimination >>>based on your own and only your own moral code. I suggest you be >>>more discreet in letting this information about your practice out to the >>>public. If someone you turned down heard about this they may file a lawsuit. >>>And you know how expensive and time-consuming lawsuits can be. >>> >>>In fact you would have turned down any business with any number of >>>my relatives, especially those that emigrated to the US in the twenties. >>>They owned a farm in Czechoslovakia, complete with live chickens >>>and pigs. My mother and grandmother taught me the value of livestock >>>and not to take it for granted, because they knew how difficult it was >>>to bring it from the barnyard to the table. >>> >>>-AEB >> >>In consulting business, you can choose your clients like you choose your >>consultant. So it is the normal way business is done every day. So I see no >>problem at all. As a matter of fact, I do not take any clients unless they >>come thru a referral; even then I have a choice. >> >>mkr > > > In personal service business, both the provider and receiver has the >choice of selection or rejection. A case in point is that sometimes patients >want to interview their physician before signing up. I know of physicians >who if interviewed, will be very cordial and nice to the prospective patient >and after the interview when the patient is ready to hire the physician, >there are physicians who routinely will tell the prospect that the physician >also has the choice of accepting or not accepting a patient and routinely do >decide not to decline to accept the patient. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ **** this should read "do decide not to accept the patient". > > My 2 cents worth. Your mileage and direction may vary. > > >mkr From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 12:04:08 -0800 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: to exist or not to exist? Message-ID: <9702272004.AA19472@toto.csustan.edu> >Yes. Later in time. Physical differences? Do you mean in the >actual letters themselves? Such as paper, handwriting ... etc? >Are the letters or photographs of them preserved somewhere? Well >now you've got me interested in looking. Yes. I have a photographic copy of all of the Mahatmic correspondence in the British Museum--published and unpublished. So I can easily determine handwriting differences, but not paper. That would require going back to the originals. But even that is not easy, because the originals are now bound in book form and each letter, or page of letters are encased in a very thin resin, so you can no longer really handle the letters themselves. Anyway, you said that you detected stylistic changes and shift in tone. The handwriting of the letters themselves are inconsistent. It occurred to me that these inconsistencies might coincide with the inconsistencies that you detected in style. I wonder if there is any information on the relationship between Bailey and Cosgrove: Where they met and when; where he studied with her; If Cosgrove had any former association with the TS, during what period and where. It seems that there are several individuals who have started with Bailey and started their own schools. I'm thinking of Baker in England and Saraydarian in Sedona at the moment. Seems that this is a whole area that needs further exploration. ------------------------------------------ |Jerry Hejka-Ekins, | |Member TI, TSA, TSP, ULT | |Please reply to: jhe@toto.csustan.edu | |and CC to jhejkaekins@igc.apc.org | ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:56:14 -0700 (MST) From: kymsmith@micron.net Subject: Re: Meat Industry Investment Message-ID: <199702280456.VAA24557@snowden.micron.net> Doss wrote: >>BTW, as a rule in my consulting and tax practice I do not take on clients in >>businesses dealing with liquor, meat industry, poulty & seafood industry, >>prostitution, military and law enforcement. This policy has not hurt my >>business. >> >>mkr I, like Ann and Thoa, find myself disturbed by your decision to deny business services to particular people. I do not see these as business decisions on your part, but as moral ones - since your business may actually be more profitable if you did take on such clients. I personally feel that businesses should not discriminate - we are already privy of how damaging that can be. As T/theosophists, we should know, perhaps better than others, how we must avoid falling into the public practice of sifting out those people we feel are worthy of our help/service - we have enough trouble dealing with it in our private lives. Specifically, I am curious, Doss, on why you don't offer your services to law enforcement. I wonder what moral objections one could have there. Would you not call the police if you found yourself a victim of a crime? Also, members of the military seem deserving of tax service - why do you choose not to offer services to them? As far as I'm concerned, prostitutes need all the help they can get. Prostitution should be legalized - BUT, pardon me, that's another argument altogether. Kym From ???@??? Sun Jan 00 00:00:00 0000 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 04:30:58 -0500 (EST) From: "John E. Mead" Subject: Stil-Light Liquidation Message-ID: <199702280930.EAA06793@pop1.vnet.net> the Board of the Stil-Light Theosophical retreat in NC is meeting this weekend to vote on whether or not to liquidate the facility due to lack of use. if you have any comments or input regarding this decision please submit them to: jem@vnet.net theos-l@netcom.com carolward@aol.com algeo@ix.netcom.com thanks - john e. mead p.s. it has occured to me that the southeast members may want to discuss this with some of the board members. board members are: (with e-mail access) john e. mead john algeo carol ward miles standish ----------------------------------------------------------- John E. Mead jem@vnet.net Owner: Theos-L etc.; http://users.vnet.net/jem/theos-l.html Member: TSA; Theosophy International (TI) "Physics is impossible without imaginary numbers. Mathematics is impossible without consciousness"